From supervinx at libero.it Fri Apr 1 00:01:17 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 07:01:17 +0200 Subject: R: RE: RSX-11 trouble Message-ID: <87h3plakx3llkgoqol7o0db6.1459486864777@email.android.com> Here I am! RSX-11M V4.2 BL38B I have two RX50 disk units and Kermit. 512kb and one RD51 fixed disk. I planned to archive separately every [*,*] and image the disks. I tried and can write back and read RX50 disks with a properly setup PC. I need only RSX-11M installation disks images but I'm confident they can be found somewhere on the net. I'll give a look to BRU... Thanks! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 1 01:27:22 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 07:27:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need info for a VAX Station 3100 SPX / VS42A-DA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1898590337.744408.1459492042541.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe19.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 01 April 2016 at 03:45 Pete Lancashire wrote: > > Won the guy on the big auction site, put the minimum bid down and $50 > later > it showed up on the doorstop. > > http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=6027 > > Sorry for the bad photo's but the sun was going down fast. > > Been trying to find the display interface specs, pinout, freqs, etc. but > so > far have been overwhelmed with just about everything else. > > Other things I guess I'll need are > > Also what keyboard should I be looking for ? > > What options do I have for an O/S ? > > The last time I logged into a VAX was one of many 11/780s the company I > worked for was like 198? something. > > A LONG time ago .. > > -pete > To get started you don't need a display or a keyboard. As long as you have some DECconnect serial cable and an adapter (see Hoff's site for details: http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/467), then you can connect it to a terminal emulator on a PC. You need to switch the machine to console mode (can't remember the official name) though. To do that there is a small switch on the back. In this picture http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=6056 it is in the small hole immediately to the left of the diagnostic LEDs. You won't get a graphics display, but at least you can start setting it up. Regards Rob From supervinx at libero.it Fri Apr 1 03:26:17 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 10:26:17 +0200 Subject: R: RE: RSX-11 trouble In-Reply-To: <87h3plakx3llkgoqol7o0db6.1459486864777@email.android.com> References: <87h3plakx3llkgoqol7o0db6.1459486864777@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1459499177.3792.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Well, let me understand better... 1) VFY reports errors on some files (-4 and -101), but ELI DU0:/SH reports no soft or hard errors. I have a defective disk or the file system is broken? 2) No ICX.TSK. Only ICP.TSK, (-4 and -101 errors with VFY) 3) I've found only tape images for RSX-11M. I have no tape unit. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Apr 1 04:48:33 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 11:48:33 +0200 Subject: Shipping big things across the atlantic. Message-ID: <20160401094832.GB9024@Update.UU.SE> Hi. I'm considering to ship an empty full height rack from the USA to Sweden. It is definitely something I wont find here so it might be worth the cost and effort. What are my options to get it here safely? If you have any experience I would greatly appreciate if you could share them. Thanks in advance, Pontus. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 04:53:22 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 05:53:22 -0400 Subject: Shipping big things across the atlantic. In-Reply-To: <20160401094832.GB9024@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160401094832.GB9024@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: If you're in no hurry best bet is an international mover on 'consolidation' - basically it's delivered to the mover and it's loaded in a shared container and it only moves once the container is full. And if you can pick it up at the arrival end that saves big-time too. Mike On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 5:48 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi. > > I'm considering to ship an empty full height rack from the USA to Sweden. It is > definitely something I wont find here so it might be worth the cost and effort. > > What are my options to get it here safely? If you have any experience I would > greatly appreciate if you could share them. > > Thanks in advance, > Pontus. -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From jon at jonworld.com Fri Apr 1 05:27:48 2016 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 12:27:48 +0200 Subject: Shipping big things across the atlantic. In-Reply-To: References: <20160401094832.GB9024@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: When I moved from the US to Belgium we used http://upakweship.com/ You can ship a single pallet worth of stuff; the fees are done by cubic volume, so you may want to load up that rack. On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Mike Ross wrote: > If you're in no hurry best bet is an international mover on > 'consolidation' - basically it's delivered to the mover and it's > loaded in a shared container and it only moves once the container is > full. And if you can pick it up at the arrival end that saves big-time > too. > > Mike > > On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 5:48 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Hi. >> >> I'm considering to ship an empty full height rack from the USA to Sweden. It is >> definitely something I wont find here so it might be worth the cost and effort. >> >> What are my options to get it here safely? If you have any experience I would >> greatly appreciate if you could share them. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Pontus. > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' -- -Jon +32 0 486 260 686 From jws at jwsss.com Fri Apr 1 07:32:58 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 05:32:58 -0700 Subject: Shipping big things across the atlantic. In-Reply-To: <20160401094832.GB9024@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160401094832.GB9024@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <56FE6A7A.2020800@jwsss.com> On 4/1/2016 2:48 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi. > > I'm considering to ship an empty full height rack from the USA to Sweden. It is > definitely something I wont find here so it might be worth the cost and effort. > > What are my options to get it here safely? If you have any experience I would > greatly appreciate if you could share them. > > Thanks in advance, > Pontus. > > If you deliver to the port and pick up from the port, the moving cost between points can be remarkably cheap for such moves. I had a quote from a point in the US to a port in Korea and also quote from a port (Los Angeles) in the US to Korea and the difference was $3000 for the moving of the item in the US. Turned out that it was cheap for the shipper to get the item to the port of LA and a lot of the $3000 was saved. I think the item was larger than you had, but the shipping cost was in the low hundreds for that portion of the shipping. For your reference, someone may correct me if you can find an eastern seaboard shipping point such as Boston, New York, etc. you should do well. Maybe Chicago as well, but not sure of the cost of seaborne shipping from ports on the Great Lakes. The cost of getting there is probably more than Atlantic Ports. Thanks Jim From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 1 08:10:14 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 09:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sun keyboards, yellowed In-Reply-To: <015d01d18bac$1fdb0c20$5f912460$@com> References: <014f01d18ba8$b0e04770$12a0d650$@com> <015d01d18bac$1fdb0c20$5f912460$@com> Message-ID: <201604011310.JAA28288@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> I collected some Sun keyboards for a customer, but some are too >>> yellowed for him to use. [...] >> Oh perfect timing! What's the interface on the Type 4 cable? >> 15-pin D or DIN? I'll probably have one in any case; there are >> adapters :-) The type-4 uses miniDIN-8; as far as I know nothing past the type-3 uses DA-15 - after that I think it was miniDIN-8 right up until they drank the USB koolaid. (I'm sure someone will correct me if not!) > No cables on the Type 4. Apparently they were removable, Yes; as far as I know all type-4s have a miniDIN-8 socket on the keyboard, with the cable being a boring miniDIN-8 on each end, wired straight through. Some later versions had a cable with one end permanently wired into the keyboard (as in, you have to disassemble the keyboard to get it free without cutting it). (No, I'm not interested in any of the keyboards. If there were any type-3s on the list, maybe; the type-3 is the only Sun keyboard that's worth anything to me.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 11:07:30 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 10:07:30 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Favorite Resolution && favorite monitor, sound, video, and capture (retro) Message-ID: Since I doubt I'm the only one on the list with failing eyes. I thought I'd ask about monitors. Now, I'll preface this with the fact that I have some macular degeneration in my retinae. So, I prefer lower resolution monitors (so that fonts can't get too tiny). I also prefer as many NITs, CD/M2, candlepower, or whatever you like to call "brightness" as I can get (again, it's my eye issues). I was curious what folks liked? Since I mess with a lot of consoles and still occasionally play with the Amiga or MiST, I like to have the option to do composite video. Keep in mind is all geared toward retro users. I konw there is "better" gear than this, now. Favorite LCD Monitor line: NEC Multisync, Dell Ultrasharp Favorite CRT Monitor line: Iiyama (Sony Trinitron as a runner up) Favorite Video Resolutions: 1280x1024 4:3 and 1280x720 (16:9) Favorite display Devices: SGI O2 CRM graphics, The Voodoo3 for PC, The VillageTronic Picasso IV for the Amiga. Favorite retro NTSC/PAL Video capture devices: SGI Indy built-in composite/s-video, SGI O2 A/V option, Amiga Newtek Video Toaster Flyer, Quadra 880AV option for Macs, and the Matrox Rainbow Runner for desktop PeeCee. Favorite Retro Sound Cards: Gravis Ultrasound for PC, Sound Blaster emu10k ("Pro" PCI cards), Amiga Studio 16, SGI DM8 for SGI/IRIX, Pro Audio Spectrum for 68k macs. If we are going further back to the 90's I'd say I liked 640x480 for all the great artwork done in that res on various platforms and MCGA 320x200 for games (mainly because they finally got 8-bit color that way). The biggest downside to the NEC monitors is that few of them support composite or S-Video. The biggest upside is that most of them perfectly support sync-on-green. Another good monitor in terms of flexibility for retro use is the Dell 2007FP Ultrasharp. It's 20" I think, but has a plethora of ports and features. I also own a Sony Trinitron PVM-20M2MDU medical monitor for my Genesis, SNES, and Neo Geo MVS conversion system. It's around 50 pounds (22 kilos), but at 20" it's small enough to keep around. It's tough to beat these for any type of non-HD video. I'm getting interested in projectors, too. However, I'm doubting I'll find one that's bright enough and will do all the video modes I want (ie.. mix of sync-on-green with composite etc..) -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 11:36:49 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 10:36:49 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Favorite Resolution && favorite monitor, sound, video, and capture (retro) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > Favorite LCD Monitor line: NEC Multisync, Dell Ultrasharp I almost forgot the king daddy 4:3 monitor, the Samsung 214T 21". It does 1600x1200 at 300 cd/m, has HD15 VGA, Supports DVI-I, Composite, Svideo, and does PAL && NTSC, IIRC. I had one of these and I gave it to my brother when he was in college so I could buy a newer monitor. I now regret it. I shoulda gave him a cheap 16:9 monitor. -Swift From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 1 11:43:31 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 12:43:31 -0400 Subject: Favorite Resolution && favorite monitor, sound, video, and capture (retro) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73B38643-0764-4C41-BA86-4A54DE1091FB@comcast.net> I remember looking at an SGI PC years ago, with a plasma panel display. That was when plasma displays cost thousands of dollars and LCD displays hadn't quite arrived yet. I almost bought one but decided against it. It sure was impressive to look at. Plasma displays have a reputation for excellent brightness and contrast. (I may be partial; I have fond memories, and an actual working copy of, a 512 x 512 "orange and white" plasma display...) paul From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Fri Apr 1 12:00:08 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 10:00:08 -0700 Subject: Looking for M865 serial card photo Message-ID: <83B7696C26204EC1969863080D9882C5@Vincew7> Hi, I'm putting the finishing touches on my efforts to re-draw the M865 schematic for the website www.so-much-stuff.com (which has a collection of similar drawings). I am looking for photos of the front and back, reasonably square-on, with enough resolution and light to make out the traces easily. My intent is to "trace over the traces" with my CAD software (Eagle 6.6), to document the board while simultaneously verifying the work I've done to draw the schematic. Does anyone have photos of the component and solder sides of an M865? It's the older Omnibus serial card, with the current loop cable soldered in. Permission to use the photos on the website would also be great. The folks I've found so far who own boards can't get photos of them for a week or more, and I'd like to finish these drawings before my motivation fades. (I know from experience how long it can take me to get back to half-finished projects!) Vince -- o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email! From useddec at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 12:06:05 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 12:06:05 -0500 Subject: Looking for M865 serial card photo In-Reply-To: <83B7696C26204EC1969863080D9882C5@Vincew7> References: <83B7696C26204EC1969863080D9882C5@Vincew7> Message-ID: I can text you one over the weekend. Contact me off list. On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Hi, > > I'm putting the finishing touches on my efforts to re-draw the M865 > schematic for the website www.so-much-stuff.com (which has a collection > of similar drawings). I am looking for photos of the front and back, > reasonably square-on, with enough resolution and light to make out the > traces easily. My intent is to "trace over the traces" with my CAD > software (Eagle 6.6), to document the board while simultaneously verifying > the work I've done to draw the schematic. > > Does anyone have photos of the component and solder sides of an M865? > It's the older Omnibus serial card, with the current loop cable soldered in. > > Permission to use the photos on the website would also be great. > > The folks I've found so far who own boards can't get photos of them > for a week or more, and I'd like to finish these drawings before my > motivation fades. (I know from experience how long it can take me to get > back to half-finished projects!) > > Vince > > -- > o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email! > > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 12:19:21 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 11:19:21 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Favorite Resolution && favorite monitor, sound, video, and capture (retro) In-Reply-To: <73B38643-0764-4C41-BA86-4A54DE1091FB@comcast.net> References: <73B38643-0764-4C41-BA86-4A54DE1091FB@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > I remember looking at an SGI PC years ago, with a plasma panel display. > That was when plasma displays cost thousands of dollars and LCD displays > hadn't quite arrived yet. I wonder if it was one of these that you saw: http://www.geocities.ws/hinv.geo/sgipics/flatpanel/indy_presenters.jpg or perhaps this one: http://www.bytecellar.com/2008/02/13/the_sgi_1600sw/ > I almost bought one but decided against it. It sure was impressive to > look at. If it was the Indy Presenter, then it's too bad you didn't snag one, they go for a pretty penny on Ebay these days. The 1600SW used to fetch quite a bit, too, but nowadays it's relatively dim next to a modern LCD. The only advantage to getting a 1600SW now is that it does a slightly higher resolution with the O2 than it'll do out of the HD15 VGA port. That and it matches the style of the O2. > Plasma displays have a reputation for excellent brightness and > contrast. A well deserved reputation. > (I may be partial; I have fond memories, and an actual working copy of, > a 512 x 512 "orange and white" plasma display...) I remember seeing those. I also remember a few laptops that had them. For certain applications they were terrific. I know the military used them for displays in some of their gear since they didn't easily wash out with sunlight. Some even thrived on sunlight by backing the plasma display with what was basically a half-silvered mirror. -Swift From jsw at ieee.org Fri Apr 1 13:17:00 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 13:17:00 -0500 Subject: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.6 In-Reply-To: <298A8349-C9DB-4CC6-94D8-BF3FA351FEAD@swri.edu> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> <032a01d186dc$dd5ea6f0$981bf4d0$@ntlworld.com> <56F5B856.4080300@sydex.com> <033201d186eb$92bafea0$b830fbe0$@ntlworld.com> <7F38838C-DD3B-4FE6-AF1D-70B2FA156E65@swri.edu> <56F70AEF.2030700@oryx.us> <298A8349-C9DB-4CC6-94D8-BF3FA351FEAD@swri.edu> Message-ID: <205EF89A-8499-45D9-8B9C-DC2CEC70DC88@ieee.org> > On Mar 27, 2016, at 11:36 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > >> On Mar 26, 2016, at 5:19 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: >> >> Just curious if something specifically is broken or non-fixable with the 10.6.8 IPv6 stack? >> >> I'm specifically wondering if you did any troubleshooting to resolve this? Or if just disabling IPv6 was the quick'n'dirty answer? > > I?m pretty helpless with networking, so I can?t comment on either AT&T's or Apple?s implementations. As you say, disabling IPv6 was the Quick?n?dirty answer. If network-aware folks have tests to suggest, I can use the G3 on 10.4.8 as a guinea pig. > > We figured this out Friday night; my wife plans to contact AT&T (and the Apple Genius Bar) Monday. I?ll report if they have any suggestions. > > I will say that my MacBook Pro (definitely off-topic) never hiccupped, and it is running OS X 10.9.5, so somewhere between 10.6.8 and 10.9.5, Apple?s implementation seems to have changed to be compatible with AT&T?s (new) implementation. For my Ubuntu 7 machine, the DNS resolution was not working on IPv6. This is a 2007 release that I don't want to upgrade. Check and see if a 'dig -aaaa www.site-u-want.com' resolves to a valid address. That was one of my first clue that something was wrong. I did not do much investigation for the Mac. Quick cure (not a fix) for my needs at the time. Jerry From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 1 13:23:05 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 14:23:05 -0400 Subject: Projectors - Re: Favorite Resolution && favorite monitor, sound, video, and capture (retro) In-Reply-To: References: <73B38643-0764-4C41-BA86-4A54DE1091FB@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56FEBC89.8000803@telegraphics.com.au> I don't think you'll have trouble finding very bright projectors. I recently bought one of these, 1300 lumens: https://www.amazon.ca/Optoma-HD80-1080p-Theater-Projector/dp/B000R4J69K ... definitely bright enough for our needs although we use it only at night anyway. This NEC model is almost 3 x brighter (!) with a conventional lamp, http://www.necdisplay.com/p/multimedia-projectors/np-m363w (3600 lumen) Their range goes much brighter than that, though, including laser/phosphor models: http://www.necdisplay.com/p/multimedia-projectors/np-p502hl (5000 lumen) --Toby From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 1 13:55:50 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 11:55:50 -0700 Subject: tumble under BSD Message-ID: <56FEC436.9070301@bitsavers.org> Out of curiosity, has anyone ever gotten Eric Smith's tumble pdf creation program running under any version of BSD? I ran into a problem porting it to OS X, in the way it used rewind() and was wondering if anyone else ran into that on other BSDs From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 14:09:40 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 13:09:40 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Projectors - Re: Favorite Resolution && favorite monitor, sound, video, and capture (retro) In-Reply-To: <56FEBC89.8000803@telegraphics.com.au> References: <73B38643-0764-4C41-BA86-4A54DE1091FB@comcast.net> <56FEBC89.8000803@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, Toby Thain wrote: > I don't think you'll have trouble finding very bright projectors. Based on that list, I guess not! I find the idea of a laser based projector pretty awesome. Now I just have to find enough space to set one up. :-) It also looks like every one of those projectors has NTSC composite inputs and HD15 VGA. That's also really cool. Now I'm wondering if any of them support sync-on-green. I kind of doubt that one, if they are newer. Does anyone use a projector frequently for non-video applications? I mean things like gaming, browsing, coding, etc.. I'd be interested in your experiences. -Swift From db at db.net Fri Apr 1 14:21:43 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 15:21:43 -0400 Subject: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <56FEC436.9070301@bitsavers.org> References: <56FEC436.9070301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20160401192143.GA57041@night.db.net> On Fri, Apr 01, 2016 at 11:55:50AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > Out of curiosity, has anyone ever gotten Eric Smith's tumble pdf > creation program running under any version of BSD? > > I ran into a problem porting it to OS X, in the way it used rewind() > and was wondering if anyone else ran into that on other BSDs It's in ports /usr/ports/graphics/tumble Not sure if it is up to date or not. http://tumble.brouhaha.com/ > > > > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 1 14:34:41 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 15:34:41 -0400 Subject: Favorite Resolution && favorite monitor, sound, video, and capture (retro) In-Reply-To: References: <73B38643-0764-4C41-BA86-4A54DE1091FB@comcast.net> Message-ID: <100D040D-078E-41E2-999E-72D2D1F5195B@comcast.net> > On Apr 1, 2016, at 1:19 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote: >> I remember looking at an SGI PC years ago, with a plasma panel display. That was when plasma displays cost thousands of dollars and LCD displays hadn't quite arrived yet. > > I wonder if it was one of these that you saw: > > http://www.geocities.ws/hinv.geo/sgipics/flatpanel/indy_presenters.jpg > > or perhaps this one: > > http://www.bytecellar.com/2008/02/13/the_sgi_1600sw/ It looked like that one, but I'm 98% sure it was plasma, not LCD as that one says it is. > ... >> (I may be partial; I have fond memories, and an actual working copy of, a 512 x 512 "orange and white" plasma display...) > > I remember seeing those. I also remember a few laptops that had them. For certain applications they were terrific. I know the military used them for displays in some of their gear since they didn't easily wash out with sunlight. Some even thrived on sunlight by backing the plasma display with what was basically a half-silvered mirror. I can't figure out the mirror bit. Normal practice in the panels I remember was that they had a polaroid filter in the front, partly to cut down on reflections and partly to improve contrast with high ambient light. They were PLATO terminals. And yes, that technology was later applied to military displays (including in 1k x 1k version, 16 inches high/wide) and early "luggable" PCs. paul From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 1 14:43:47 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 20:43:47 +0100 Subject: Favorite Resolution && favorite monitor, sound, video, and capture (retro) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56FECF73.50900@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/04/2016 17:07, Swift Griggs wrote: > I was curious what folks liked? Since I mess with a lot of consoles and > still occasionally play with the Amiga or MiST, I like to have the > option to do composite video. Keep in mind is all geared toward retro > users. I konw there is "better" gear than this, now. > > Favorite LCD Monitor line: NEC Multisync, Dell Ultrasharp I have couple of NEC Multisync LCDs as well, and they're nice because although they don't have a composite input as such they will handle the frame rates from older home computers. > Favorite CRT Monitor line: Iiyama (Sony Trinitron as a runner up) Never had an Iiyama CRT, only their LCDs. I have a couple of SGI-badged Trinitrons for Indys and two Acorn-badged Philips(?) which I keep because they're original for some of my machines and one also handles some newer stuff while living on a KVM switch. > Favorite Video Resolutions: 1280x1024 4:3 and 1280x720 (16:9) Lots of 1280x1024 here. 4 of them on one machine :-) I have a number of O2s - some with the "good" AV and some with the basic version, three Indys, four (I think) Indigos - all with different graphics options, and a full-rack Origin 2000 in my SGI collection. Two still in day-to-day use, too. Not the Origin, though it does make a good hair drier. -- Pete From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 15:03:23 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 14:03:23 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Favorite Resolution && favorite monitor, sound, video, and capture (retro) In-Reply-To: <100D040D-078E-41E2-999E-72D2D1F5195B@comcast.net> References: <73B38643-0764-4C41-BA86-4A54DE1091FB@comcast.net> <100D040D-078E-41E2-999E-72D2D1F5195B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote: >> http://www.bytecellar.com/2008/02/13/the_sgi_1600sw/ > It looked like that one, but I'm 98% sure it was plasma, not LCD as that > one says it is. They had a couple of models, I've only ever seen the LCD one, but there was another model (if you look close, one has a bit of an amber cast to it). That could have been a plasma model. I think it was the one meant to work with overhead projectors, but I'm not sure. > I can't figure out the mirror bit. Normal practice in the panels I > remember was that they had a polaroid filter in the front, partly to cut > down on reflections and partly to improve contrast with high ambient > light. The ones I vaguely remember were on very early ruggedized laptops (those big brick / nearly-luggable laptops in the style of the Mac Portable). Someone at a swap-meet called them "Daylight screens". I think they used those a bit in cop-cars for VMDs, too. > And yes, that technology was later applied to military displays > (including in 1k x 1k version, 16 inches high/wide) and early "luggable" > PCs. I had one of those old Compaq Portable III machines for a while. It was what I used to drag to conventions in the mid 90's. I didn't have the cash for a "real" laptop. I think it has a gas-plasma display on it. It was amber, I remember that, at least. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 15:24:38 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 14:24:38 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Favorite Resolution && favorite monitor, sound, video, and capture (retro) In-Reply-To: <56FECF73.50900@dunnington.plus.com> References: <56FECF73.50900@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I have couple of NEC Multisync LCDs as well, and they're nice because > although they don't have a composite input as such they will handle the > frame rates from older home computers. I share your reasoning. I also use scan-doublers to overcome the lack of a 14Khz refresh rate. However, the monitor will happily do the low resolutions of an Amiga or ST with a scandoubler. > Lots of 1280x1024 here. 4 of them on one machine :-) Whoa. What's the story there ? Are you using some specialized system or is just that they fit on your workspace well and you like multi-head? I have a friend who, after at least 6 years of keeping his triple 4:3 monitor setup in place, broke down and got him one of those ultra-super-wide gaming monitors. He says it's better for games (no seams), but worse for applications (can't split up the real-estate). > I have a number of O2s - some with the "good" AV and some with the basic > version, I used to have 3 O2s, but I've gone down to just one bad-dog top of the line R12k O2+. That's fixed my O2 lust issues. I just had to make "one good one." :-) > Not the Origin, though it does make a good hair drier. Lots of SGI's do. My old Octanes did, my Tezro does, etc... I wish I could find some audio-spec fans to replace these loud ones they come with, but it's harder than one might think. -Swift From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 11:36:39 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 12:36:39 -0400 Subject: Need info for a VAX Station 3100 SPX / VS42A-DA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 11:36 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 7:45 PM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: > > Won the guy on the big auction site, put the minimum bid down and $50 > later > > it showed up on the doorstop. > > > > http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=6027 > > > > Sorry for the bad photo's but the sun was going down fast. > > > > Been trying to find the display interface specs, pinout, freqs, etc. but > so > > far have been overwhelmed with just about everything else. > > > > Other things I guess I'll need are > > > > Also what keyboard should I be looking for ? > > > > What options do I have for an O/S ? > > > > The last time I logged into a VAX was one of many 11/780s the company I > > worked for was like 198? something. > > A VAXstation 3100 series GPX (VS40X-PA) controller is supposed to have > a resolution of 1024 by 864 at 60Hz while the SPX (WS01X-GA) > controller is supposed to have a resolution of 1280 by 1024 at 66 Hz. > > The color video cable 15-pin D-shell to 3-BNC cable for the SPX is the > BC23J-03. > > The keyboard is the common LK201. > > I installed OpenVMS 7.3 on my VAXstation 3100 M76 SPX. > If you don't have the correct monitor for xwindow for now that may not matter yet anyway. First you need to get into the serial console to set up the system, reset the password, etc. I have a 3100 I recently got up and running, the thread is on my web site if any of this info will be useful to you. My battery is still good, but you also will want to replace the battery if the system asks you to set the time on each cold boot. My microvax3100 has only serial console display. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Apr 1 12:56:43 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 10:56:43 -0700 Subject: Need info for a VAX Station 3100 SPX / VS42A-DA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds good, your reply and Glen's kicked me into remember I have somewhere a couple of the serial cables and DB25 adapters, just have to remember from around 15 years ago where they are. -pete On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 9:36 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 11:36 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 7:45 PM, Pete Lancashire > > wrote: > > > Won the guy on the big auction site, put the minimum bid down and $50 > > later > > > it showed up on the doorstop. > > > > > > http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=6027 > > > > > > Sorry for the bad photo's but the sun was going down fast. > > > > > > Been trying to find the display interface specs, pinout, freqs, etc. > but > > so > > > far have been overwhelmed with just about everything else. > > > > > > Other things I guess I'll need are > > > > > > Also what keyboard should I be looking for ? > > > > > > What options do I have for an O/S ? > > > > > > The last time I logged into a VAX was one of many 11/780s the company I > > > worked for was like 198? something. > > > > A VAXstation 3100 series GPX (VS40X-PA) controller is supposed to have > > a resolution of 1024 by 864 at 60Hz while the SPX (WS01X-GA) > > controller is supposed to have a resolution of 1280 by 1024 at 66 Hz. > > > > The color video cable 15-pin D-shell to 3-BNC cable for the SPX is the > > BC23J-03. > > > > The keyboard is the common LK201. > > > > I installed OpenVMS 7.3 on my VAXstation 3100 M76 SPX. > > > > > If you don't have the correct monitor for xwindow for now that may not > matter yet anyway. First you need to get into the serial console to set up > the system, reset the password, etc. I have a 3100 I recently got up and > running, the thread is on my web site if any of this info will be useful to > you. > > My battery is still good, but you also will want to replace the battery if > the system asks you to set the time on each cold boot. > > My microvax3100 has only serial console display. > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 1 17:08:27 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 23:08:27 +0100 Subject: Favorite Resolution && favorite monitor, sound, video, and capture (retro) In-Reply-To: References: <56FECF73.50900@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <56FEF15B.5090100@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/04/2016 21:24, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Lots of 1280x1024 here. 4 of them on one machine :-) > > Whoa. What's the story there ? Are you using some specialized system or > is just that they fit on your workspace well and you like multi-head? The latter, really. It started as a dual-head PC and the nearby third monitor on an Indy got a KVM switch. Then a while ago I snagged a 2-up 2-across stand and happened to have 4 matching Iiyamas that had cost me nothing, so... It's grown organically and a lot cheaper than buying one really large hi-res display. The two graphics cards can actually drive three monitors each but that really would be OTT, and besides then I'd probably have to actually /buy/ something. It's useful when photo editing or doing anything "interesting" on the network that needs a lot of windows. The KVM is still there so sometimes the top right is displaying the Indy desktop. -- Pete From lists at loomcom.com Fri Apr 1 20:53:00 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 20:53:00 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3B2 floppy format Message-ID: <20160402015300.GA30559@loomcom.com> I finally have my own AT&T 3B2/300, and I'm having a heck of a time getting disk images transferred to physical media. I have here a set of AT&T SVR3.2 diskette images, apparently made (not by me) using dd. I would like to transfer them to physical media in such a way that they're usable by the 3B2/300. Here's what I know so far: * 3B2 diskettes are 720KB, Double Sided Quad Density (DSQD) 96tpi * Each side is 80 tracks, 9 sectors per track, 512KB per sector * Sectors use 3:1 interleave * Physical media should be good quality DSDD * The 3B2 fdc is a TMS2797 (WD 2797 compatible) * The 3B2 floppy drive is a CDC 9429 On my PC, I'm using a venerable TEAC FD55-GV with the "I" jumper in place, so at double density it should be spinning at 300RPM. ImageDisk claims that reading and writing at 300kbps is successful. I have been using ImageDisk to translate the BIN files I've downloaded into IMD files with the following commands: D:\> BIN2IMD DISK1.BIN TMP.IMD /2 /U N=80 DM=4 SS=512 SM=1-9 D:\> IMDU TMP.IMD DISK1.IMD IL=3 (The two-step translation is necessary because BIN2IMD cannot directly write 3:1 interleaved data unless it's interleaved in the BIN image, so you have to use IMDU to reshuffle things... it's complicated!) Anyway, after doing this, what I end up with is a disk that is _almost_ usable. I can boot off of it, but it fails shortly after loading the UNIX kernel. I can run the 3B2's "dgmon" floppy diagnostics on it, and they almost pass, but fail to reliably read and write during the R/W test. Now, here's the thing: If I use the exact same media and low level format it _on the 3B2 itself_, the disks are 100% readable on the 3B2 and pass all floppy diagnostics with flying colors. So I'm trying to pin down what about my setup is not right. My pet theory right now is that the R/W gap and Format gap are wrong. The default values for the gaps when calculated by ImageDisk are 24/64. I've played with 22/32, 34/62, and 42/80, all based on reading the datasheet and/or old Linux "fdprm" settings, but nothing seems to make the disks 100% reliable on the 3B2 when written on the PC. Does anyone have any insight into the gap lengths used by the 3B2? Or, have you successfully written 3B2 floppies from disk image before? -Seth -- Seth Morabito From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Fri Apr 1 20:57:48 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 12:57:48 +1100 Subject: seeking EK-OLA30-OP - LA30 DECwriter User's Manual Message-ID: Not an essential manual but for completeness I would like to find a copy. If anyone has one would they be willing to scan it please or I can arrange to get it done. The list of manuals for the DECwriter I LA-30 are: (missing) EK-OLA30-OPLA30 DECwriter User's Manual (online) DEC-00-LA30-DC1972-08LA30 DECwriter Maintenance Manual (online) LA30 Engineering drawings Nov-1973 (online) via Manx or bitsavers. If anyone has paper for these printers in the right size I'd be glad to have some (whatever would fit in an large envelope). LA30 is fixed sprocket position, needs 9-7/8 inch wide (1/2 inch pitch x 0.150 inch diameter feed holes) continuous paper. From mark at matlockfamily.com Fri Apr 1 22:45:21 2016 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 22:45:21 -0500 Subject: RSX-11M trouble Message-ID: <9ACD9487-04A1-41E3-B83C-48344EDCA831@MatlockFamily.com> > The SYSVMR.CMD shows that the Indirect Command Processor is named ICP.TSK. > Sadly, ICP.TSK is one of the four tasks that have read issues... > > I need another info: BAD is destructive or not destructive? > BAD is destructive to the data on the disk! If there are only four tasks that have read issues you may be able to move just those tasks over from a good version of RSX-11M with Kermit which you mentioned you had. > Here I am! > RSX-11M V4.2 BL38B > > I have two RX50 disk units and Kermit. > 512kb and one RD51 fixed disk. > I planned to archive separately every [*,*] and image the disks. > I tried and can write back and read RX50 disks with a properly setup PC. > I need only RSX-11M installation disks images but I'm confident they can be found somewhere on the net. > I'll give a look to BRU... A RD51 drive holds about 10 MB which is about the minimum for a RSX-11M system. The RX50 disks could load a version of Micro RSX which was a pre-GENed RSX-11M system. I used it one time to recover a non-bootable RSX system disk where someone deleted the RSX11M.SYS file that the boot block pointed to. I have not seem those RX50 images of Micro RSX on the internet so far. Since you can read and write the RX50 disks with a PC. Get a copy of PUTR from John Wilson Dbit site http://www.dbit.com/pub/putr/ to be able to write RX50s in RT-11 which can be read in RSX-11M with FLX. Then get a copy of Simh from the GitHub: https://github.com/simh/simh Once you have a working Simh PDP-11 emulator (e.g. pdp11.exe) then get a bootable baseline RSX11M disk image ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/rsx_dists/rsxm70.dsk.bz2 (Note: this disk image is actually RSX11M V4.8 The Simh will need a configuration file (e.g. sim.ini) that describes the PDP-11 system it is emulating like this: sim> do sim.ini set console log=./console.log set cpu 11/23, 256K set cpu idle set tto 8b set rq0 rd54 attach rq0 rsxm70.dsk sim>show rq sim> show rq RQ address=17772150-17772153, no vector, RQDX3, 4 units RQ0 159MB, not attached, write enabled RD54, autosize, SIMH format RQ1 159MB, not attached, write enabled RD54, autosize, SIMH format RQ2 159MB, not attached, write enabled RD54, autosize, SIMH format RQ3 800KB, not attached, write enabled RX50, autosize, SIMH format sim> b rq0 and it will boot RSX11M where this will bring up a baseline RSX11M system. DU3 should be a virtual RX50 that will create a disk image that can be read with PUTR and moved to a real RX50 or you could use Linux DD to image the RX50. At any rate the emulated RSX11M system will have the tasks that should be compatible on your real PDP-11. You might also be able to kermit from the simulated to the physical PDP-11. At any rate having a virtual RSX11M system to experiment with will help you a great deal in getting your real system running. If this is too complicated, I could try sending you an RX50 disk image with the tasks you need, but I only have RSX11M V4.8 (I mostly use RSX11M+ V4.6) handy so we'd have to try those .TSKs to see if they might work. > Well, let me understand better... > > 1) VFY reports errors on some files (-4 and -101), but ELI DU0:/SH > reports no soft or hard errors. > I have a defective disk or the file system is broken? > > 2) No ICX.TSK. Only ICP.TSK, (-4 and -101 errors with VFY) > > 3) I've found only tape images for RSX-11M. I have no tape unit. If you are not getting errors on the disk, then the disk is probably ok and the file system has some corruption. Remember that an RSX11M system should be shut down by running shut up to make sure all files are closed etc. >RUN SHUTUP BRU can do disk to disk copies but with only one RD51 and no tape it won't help much. In my RSX work I use a SCSI disk controller like a Emulex UC07 with the SCSI2SD card that emulates unto 4 DU disks on one microSD card. This makes it very easy to move large disk images from Simh on a PC to be bootable RSX disks on the PDP-11. It is easy to back up and very reliable. The SCSI2SD card is only $65 but Qbus SCSI cards are a bit pricey. By the way which CPU is in the PDP-11, a 11/23? Good Luck, Mark From david at thecoolbears.org Fri Apr 1 23:25:38 2016 From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 21:25:38 -0700 Subject: Broken BA123 Message-ID: <56FF49C2.9080203@thecoolbears.org> If my house were on fire and I had to pick what to save, near the top of my list would be my MicroVAX in a BA123 enclosure. It is by FAR my favorite computer. Sadly, there was a tragic accident and the ventilation louver, just about the power switch got broken. I know, I know. How could this happen? I am overcome by guilt. I can't rest until my poor, sad VAX is fully repaired and back to it's perfect condition. I've tried to repair it, but not had satisfactory results. Is there anyone out there that would be willing to sell me a replacement? From pete at petelancashire.com Sat Apr 2 00:59:10 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 22:59:10 -0700 Subject: VMS Software Message-ID: Pulled these out of the trash http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=6062&g2_navId=x09e4617c The first picture are for VAX the yet to be check in the second photo are VMS for Alpha. Now that I have that little VAX 3100 I only want to get it configured. Is someone other there I should give these to, I want to make sure the contents are not lost. Bitsavers.org for example. -pete From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sat Apr 2 01:20:05 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 08:20:05 +0200 Subject: Broken BA123 In-Reply-To: <56FF49C2.9080203@thecoolbears.org> References: <56FF49C2.9080203@thecoolbears.org> Message-ID: <20160402062004.GA1796@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Apr 01, 2016 at 09:25:38PM -0700, David Coolbear wrote: > If my house were on fire and I had to pick what to save, near the top of my > list would be my MicroVAX in a BA123 enclosure. It is by FAR my favorite > computer. Sadly, there was a tragic accident and the ventilation louver, > just about the power switch got broken. I know, I know. How could this > happen? I am overcome by guilt. I can't rest until my poor, sad VAX is fully > repaired and back to it's perfect condition. Is it the one on the front or is there a breaker on the back? > > I've tried to repair it, but not had satisfactory results. Is there anyone > out there that would be willing to sell me a replacement? > The front breaker on my MicroPDP-11 broke and they are still made. I couldn't find the right color but I could reuse the original housing: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/pdp1173_restore.shtml I'm not certain it's the same for the VAX in BA123. An issue though is that the bulb in the new switch didn't light up but I guess that is a problem with the fron panel PCB. Pergaps it is configurable with a jumper? Speaking of BA123. Does anyone have a set of skins for sale? /P From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 01:41:01 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 23:41:01 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B2 floppy format In-Reply-To: <20160402015300.GA30559@loomcom.com> References: <20160402015300.GA30559@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <62F6141F-0DA2-44CD-8C3E-358ABCEA2AA3@gmail.com> It looks like you did everything right. However I thought one specifies interleave directly in the BIN2IMD command using the DM=3 option. I see you have DM=4 on your command line. But since you can load the kernel that might not be the source of your problem. Having a disk being formatted in one drive not readable in another could simply be that one of the two drives is misaligned. Or some silly difference with the track width between the two heads of your later HD drive and the earlier QD drive, although since they are both 80 tracks that should not be. BTW, can you do the reverse, format a disk in your AT&T and recover every sector through IMD on your PC? In this case there might be an option in ImageDisk to write without formatting. I think you can do that with Omnidisk. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of Seth Morabito Reply-To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Friday, April 1, 2016 at 6:53 PM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: AT&T 3B2 floppy format I finally have my own AT&T 3B2/300, and I'm having a heck of a time getting disk images transferred to physical media. I have here a set of AT&T SVR3.2 diskette images, apparently made (not by me) using dd. I would like to transfer them to physical media in such a way that they're usable by the 3B2/300. Here's what I know so far: * 3B2 diskettes are 720KB, Double Sided Quad Density (DSQD) 96tpi * Each side is 80 tracks, 9 sectors per track, 512KB per sector * Sectors use 3:1 interleave * Physical media should be good quality DSDD * The 3B2 fdc is a TMS2797 (WD 2797 compatible) * The 3B2 floppy drive is a CDC 9429 On my PC, I'm using a venerable TEAC FD55-GV with the "I" jumper in place, so at double density it should be spinning at 300RPM. ImageDisk claims that reading and writing at 300kbps is successful. I have been using ImageDisk to translate the BIN files I've downloaded into IMD files with the following commands: D:\> BIN2IMD DISK1.BIN TMP.IMD /2 /U N=80 DM=4 SS=512 SM=1-9 D:\> IMDU TMP.IMD DISK1.IMD IL=3 (The two-step translation is necessary because BIN2IMD cannot directly write 3:1 interleaved data unless it's interleaved in the BIN image, so you have to use IMDU to reshuffle things... it's complicated!) Anyway, after doing this, what I end up with is a disk that is _almost_ usable. I can boot off of it, but it fails shortly after loading the UNIX kernel. I can run the 3B2's "dgmon" floppy diagnostics on it, and they almost pass, but fail to reliably read and write during the R/W test. Now, here's the thing: If I use the exact same media and low level format it _on the 3B2 itself_, the disks are 100% readable on the 3B2 and pass all floppy diagnostics with flying colors. So I'm trying to pin down what about my setup is not right. My pet theory right now is that the R/W gap and Format gap are wrong. The default values for the gaps when calculated by ImageDisk are 24/64. I've played with 22/32, 34/62, and 42/80, all based on reading the datasheet and/or old Linux "fdprm" settings, but nothing seems to make the disks 100% reliable on the 3B2 when written on the PC. Does anyone have any insight into the gap lengths used by the 3B2? Or, have you successfully written 3B2 floppies from disk image before? -Seth -- Seth Morabito From dave at 661.org Sat Apr 2 04:50:57 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 09:50:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Mac SE/30 pincushioning and flicker Message-ID: I recapped a Mac SE/30 a few months back and only just now put it back together. After a false start with dirty contacts on the ROM simm and resulting irregular vertical bars, the machine is working again. There are no more zipping sounds coming out of the speaker. Two problems remain: 1) There is slight pincushioning along the bottom of the CRT, about a third of the way in from the left. 2) The CRT produces a rather noticable and irritating flicker. I don't remember the one-piece Macs flickering like this. I think a cleverly-placed magnet might fix the pincushioning and recapping the analogue board would remedy the flicker. Can I get some thoughts, commentary, and suggestions on this? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From supervinx at libero.it Sat Apr 2 01:34:38 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2016 08:34:38 +0200 Subject: RSX-11M trouble In-Reply-To: <9ACD9487-04A1-41E3-B83C-48344EDCA831@MatlockFamily.com> References: <9ACD9487-04A1-41E3-B83C-48344EDCA831@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: <1459578878.2421.6.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Thanks for your clear explanation. I use simh regularly, VAX based emulation, to transfer and backup data from my real VAXes. I also have a cluster of simh VAXes, so it won't be difficult to get a PDP-11 up and running with simh. I have putr and I've noticed it handles Files-11 read-only: I didn't think to prepare a RT-11 disk to share the needed files. I found a RSX-11M+ tape image set: I'll try it before. Well, I knew about SHUTUP, but SHUTUP isn't there. So may be the system hasn't been properly shut up, so the file system corruption... Yes, it's a 11/23 CPU From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 2 11:06:52 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 09:06:52 -0700 Subject: VMS Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56FFEE1C.2030304@bitsavers.org> On 4/1/16 10:59 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Bitsavers.org for example. > I have a large collection of VAX condists at the museum. The issue is making them available. Since a few of the current VMS owners are on the list, opinions would be appreciated. They will be imaged at some point and the images put into CHM's internal dark archive. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 2 11:21:26 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 09:21:26 -0700 Subject: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <20160401192143.GA57041@night.db.net> References: <56FEC436.9070301@bitsavers.org> <20160401192143.GA57041@night.db.net> Message-ID: <56FFF186.3020104@bitsavers.org> On 4/1/16 12:21 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > It's in ports /usr/ports/graphics/tumble > > Not sure if it is up to date or not. > Thanks. It appears that the stdio that I'm linking against on OS X 10.9.5 does not keep the file pointers synchronized between the system and stdio. Tumble opens a file, and handlers for various image file types read and rewind the magic number trying to figure out what format the image file is in. In the case of tiff at least (haven't checked others) a syscall file descriptor is passed to libtiff. Once it's inside, the tiff library reads the magic number with a read syscall and erroneously gets data 4K into the file, so it never saw the rewind(). http://austin-group-l.opengroup.narkive.com/2RTHr3EB/fseek-3-question-typo-fix talks about this issue. Being a Unix greybeard, it took a couple of days staring at it to figure out what was going on, since I had never run into a system that behaved this way. I may try going back to a G5 running 10.5 to see if OS X stdio has always behaved this way. Maybe Guy or Camerion Kaiser know, or it may have been discussed on macports. From ian.finder at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 11:28:45 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 16:28:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Mac SE/30 pincushioning and flicker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56A0153D66EF8B17.9DB94B30-D9EC-49A7-AC8B-31E4BC7047BC@mail.outlook.com> The flicker is gonna likely be aging capacitors on the analog board. Ideally you'd replace these. For the pincushion I believe there are magnets on the yoke that can be adjusted... Sent from Outlook for iPhone On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 2:51 AM -0700, "David Griffith" wrote: I recapped a Mac SE/30 a few months back and only just now put it back together. After a false start with dirty contacts on the ROM simm and resulting irregular vertical bars, the machine is working again. There are no more zipping sounds coming out of the speaker. Two problems remain: 1) There is slight pincushioning along the bottom of the CRT, about a third of the way in from the left. 2) The CRT produces a rather noticable and irritating flicker. I don't remember the one-piece Macs flickering like this. I think a cleverly-placed magnet might fix the pincushioning and recapping the analogue board would remedy the flicker. Can I get some thoughts, commentary, and suggestions on this? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 2 12:27:25 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 18:27:25 +0100 Subject: DECmate II Questions Message-ID: <065101d18d04$ec47a940$c4d6fbc0$@ntlworld.com> I have been looking at my DECmate II recently. I got an Italian version of WPS 1.0 for it and that works fine, except that I don't have an Italian keyboard so finding some of the characters is a bit tricky. :) The machine came with an RD51 hard disk. I can't many references to MFM disks in DECmate IIs. The disk will sometimes spin up and sometimes remains motionless. I checked all three of the Darlington transistors on the drive board and they seemed fine (I checked them out of circuit). However, unless I have any really persistent problems getting the disk to run, I am not going to bother trying to make it start reliably. My main question though is this. From what I can see the WPS software does not access the hard disk, the manual I have does not mention hard disks. I executed the function for listing files and it said it found nothing, whether that attempted to access the hard disk or not I don't know. Should WPS be able to access the hard disk? Might it have been a later version that used the hard disk? If not, then would one of the other OSs for the DECmate II be able to access the hard disk? I don't have any other OSs for it though, does anyone know where I might find copies? I also have a graphics option board for the machine, which software actually uses this option? Any recommendations for how best to image RX50 diskettes? I want to preserve the diskettes I have. Regards Rob From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Apr 2 12:49:05 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 13:49:05 -0400 Subject: DECmate II Questions In-Reply-To: <065101d18d04$ec47a940$c4d6fbc0$@ntlworld.com> References: <065101d18d04$ec47a940$c4d6fbc0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <103A8EF1-07D5-4EC0-8C38-66FB4F565303@comcast.net> > On Apr 2, 2016, at 1:27 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I have been looking at my DECmate II recently. I got an Italian version of > WPS 1.0 for it and that works fine, except that I don't have an Italian > keyboard so finding some of the characters is a bit tricky. :) > ... > Any recommendations for how best to image RX50 diskettes? I want to preserve > the diskettes I have. Are they the same format (80 tracks, 10 sectors, 512 bytes) as the RX50 on PDP11s? If yes, you can either use a PDP11, or you can configure Linux to 10 sector per track format and use dd. If the sector ordering is as strange as on the PDP11, dd will get the data very much out of order, but it should all be there. I can find the PDP11 interleave rules if you need them. paul From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 2 13:49:57 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 19:49:57 +0100 Subject: DECmate II Questions In-Reply-To: <103A8EF1-07D5-4EC0-8C38-66FB4F565303@comcast.net> References: <065101d18d04$ec47a940$c4d6fbc0$@ntlworld.com> <103A8EF1-07D5-4EC0-8C38-66FB4F565303@comcast.net> Message-ID: <065a01d18d10$73dfb950$5b9f2bf0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Koning > Sent: 02 April 2016 18:49 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: DECmate II Questions > > > > On Apr 2, 2016, at 1:27 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > > > I have been looking at my DECmate II recently. I got an Italian > > version of WPS 1.0 for it and that works fine, except that I don't > > have an Italian keyboard so finding some of the characters is a bit > > tricky. :) ... > > Any recommendations for how best to image RX50 diskettes? I want to > > preserve the diskettes I have. > > Are they the same format (80 tracks, 10 sectors, 512 bytes) as the RX50 on > PDP11s? If yes, you can either use a PDP11, or you can configure Linux to 10 > sector per track format and use dd. If the sector ordering is as strange as on > the PDP11, dd will get the data very much out of order, but it should all be > there. I can find the PDP11 interleave rules if you need them. > I do have an 11/73 I might be able to press into service, although my first thought was a MicroVAX II with VMS and using backup/image. Not sure if that would work though? Ideally an image that I can then write back to "new" diskettes, or possibly use in SIMH (if it ever gets DECmate emulation of course). Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 2 14:03:16 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 20:03:16 +0100 Subject: DECmate II Questions References: <065101d18d04$ec47a940$c4d6fbc0$@ntlworld.com> <103A8EF1-07D5-4EC0-8C38-66FB4F565303@comcast.net> Message-ID: <065b01d18d12$501d99e0$f058cda0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] > Sent: 02 April 2016 19:50 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: DECmate II Questions > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > > Koning > > Sent: 02 April 2016 18:49 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: DECmate II Questions > > > > > > > On Apr 2, 2016, at 1:27 PM, Robert Jarratt > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > I have been looking at my DECmate II recently. I got an Italian > > > version of WPS 1.0 for it and that works fine, except that I don't > > > have an Italian keyboard so finding some of the characters is a bit > > > tricky. :) ... > > > Any recommendations for how best to image RX50 diskettes? I want to > > > preserve the diskettes I have. > > > > Are they the same format (80 tracks, 10 sectors, 512 bytes) as the > > RX50 on PDP11s? If yes, you can either use a PDP11, or you can > > configure Linux to 10 sector per track format and use dd. If the > > sector ordering is as strange as on the PDP11, dd will get the data > > very much out of order, but it should all be there. I can find the PDP11 > interleave rules if you need them. > > > > > I do have an 11/73 I might be able to press into service, although my first > thought was a MicroVAX II with VMS and using backup/image. Not sure if > that would work though? Ideally an image that I can then write back to "new" > diskettes, or possibly use in SIMH (if it ever gets DECmate emulation of > course). > Sorry Paul, I just realised I didn't answer your question. Unfortunately I don't know, and the docs I got from Manx/BitSavers don't cover the RX50. Regards Rob From jondjohnston at hotmail.com Sat Apr 2 15:29:03 2016 From: jondjohnston at hotmail.com (Jon Johnston) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 06:29:03 +1000 Subject: Original HP 2116A is running again! Message-ID: Just in time for her 50th birthday in November: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kko526UpHsM&feature=youtu.be www.hpmuseum.net From lists at loomcom.com Sat Apr 2 15:44:40 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 15:44:40 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3B2 floppy format In-Reply-To: <62F6141F-0DA2-44CD-8C3E-358ABCEA2AA3@gmail.com> References: <20160402015300.GA30559@loomcom.com> <62F6141F-0DA2-44CD-8C3E-358ABCEA2AA3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160402204440.GA1044@loomcom.com> * On Fri, Apr 01, 2016 at 11:41:01PM -0700, Curious Marc wrote: > It looks like you did everything right. However I thought one > specifies interleave directly in the BIN2IMD command using the DM=3 > option. I see you have DM=4 on your command line. But since you can > load the kernel that might not be the source of your problem. Having > a disk being formatted in one drive not readable in another could > simply be that one of the two drives is misaligned. Or some silly > difference with the track width between the two heads of your later > HD drive and the earlier QD drive, although since they are both 80 > tracks that should not be. BTW, can you do the reverse, format a > disk in your AT&T and recover every sector through IMD on your PC? > In this case there might be an option in ImageDisk to write without > formatting. I think you can do that with Omnidisk. > > Marc Hi Marc, DM=3 in the BIN2IMD arguments list has nothing to do with interleaving. It specifies Data Mode 3, 300kbps MFM. But it turns out, this WAS my problem! After doing more experimentation this morning, I've discovered that the data mode I should have been using was 250kbps MFM, NOT 300kbps! After changing ImageDisk to write 250kbps (and ensuring that the 300RPM "I" jumper was strapped on the FD55-GV), the images work perfectly! So, that's the secret. 3B2 floppies are DSQD 250kbps MFM. Whew! -Seth From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Apr 2 16:09:16 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 17:09:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <56FFF186.3020104@bitsavers.org> References: <56FEC436.9070301@bitsavers.org> <20160401192143.GA57041@night.db.net> <56FFF186.3020104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201604022109.RAA18164@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > It appears that the stdio that I'm linking against on OS X 10.9.5 > does not keep the file pointers synchronized between the system and > stdio. Actually, I would say that any supposedly-portable software that depends on either behaviour is broken; AFAICT stdio has never promised either way. > In the case of tiff at least (haven't checked others) a syscall file > descriptor is passed to libtiff. Once it's inside, the tiff library > reads the magic number with a read syscall and erroneously gets data > 4K into the file, so it never saw the rewind(). Assuming the narkive.com discussion's quotes are accurate, unless the last stdio call on that stream was fflush (which it sounds as though it wasn't in this case), there is no requirement that the file descriptor seek pointer be synchronized with the stdio offset, and software depending on it being so is buggy, regardless of how many systems it may happen to work on. > Being a Unix greybeard, it took a couple of days staring at it to > figure out what was going on, since I had never run into a system > that behaved this way. I'd say it's about as important to know what is _promised_ as it is to know what _actually happens_. This sort of thing is why. (I went through my larval phase in the '80s under VMS; the VMS documentation is, or at least was then, a joy to behold, with very clear demarcation of what is promised and what isn't.) Indeed, most stdios do not keep the file descriptor offset and the stdio stream offset synchronized in general; for example, after fopen()ing a file for read and getc()ing one byte, the OS file pointer will usually be 4K or 8K or some such into the file (one stdio bufferful), not the one byte into the file the stdio offset is. Hence the requirement for fflush. (I'd've preferred a separate call, but they didn't ask me.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Apr 2 16:22:27 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 17:22:27 -0400 Subject: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <201604022109.RAA18164@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <56FEC436.9070301@bitsavers.org> <20160401192143.GA57041@night.db.net> <56FFF186.3020104@bitsavers.org> <201604022109.RAA18164@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <22E0F51E-D06A-4D51-8B86-32E01E53A93B@comcast.net> > On Apr 2, 2016, at 5:09 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> It appears that the stdio that I'm linking against on OS X 10.9.5 >> does not keep the file pointers synchronized between the system and >> stdio. > > Actually, I would say that any supposedly-portable software that > depends on either behaviour is broken; AFAICT stdio has never promised > either way. > ... > I'd say it's about as important to know what is _promised_ as it is to > know what _actually happens_. This sort of thing is why. I wonder how clearly the various manpages state the promises. It's unfortunate that lots of programmers have the habit of blaming the tool when their code breaks because they are doing "undefined" things. There's a great paper about undefined things in C, and what compilers may do, and the way a number of well known open source projects react -- not by fixing the code but by turning off all manner of optimizations instead. paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Apr 2 16:36:40 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 17:36:40 -0400 Subject: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <22E0F51E-D06A-4D51-8B86-32E01E53A93B@comcast.net> References: <56FEC436.9070301@bitsavers.org> <20160401192143.GA57041@night.db.net> <56FFF186.3020104@bitsavers.org> <201604022109.RAA18164@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <22E0F51E-D06A-4D51-8B86-32E01E53A93B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-02 5:22 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Apr 2, 2016, at 5:09 PM, Mouse wrote: >> >>> It appears that the stdio that I'm linking against on OS X 10.9.5 >>> does not keep the file pointers synchronized between the system and >>> stdio. >> >> Actually, I would say that any supposedly-portable software that >> depends on either behaviour is broken; AFAICT stdio has never promised >> either way. >> ... >> I'd say it's about as important to know what is _promised_ as it is to >> know what _actually happens_. This sort of thing is why. > > I wonder how clearly the various manpages state the promises. > > It's unfortunate that lots of programmers have the habit of blaming the tool when their code breaks because they are doing "undefined" things. There's a great paper about undefined things in C, and what compilers may do, and the way a number of well known open source projects react -- not by fixing the code but by turning off all manner of optimizations instead. > Anyone interested in C and UB will want to read most of John Regehr's http://blog.regehr.org/ - it hosts some of the best material on UB. --Toby > paul > > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Apr 2 15:49:45 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 16:49:45 -0400 Subject: Original HP 2116A is running again! Message-ID: <3d42f3.66b091b8.44318a69@aol.com> Yahoo! congrats! In a message dated 4/2/2016 1:29:56 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jondjohnston at hotmail.com writes: Just in time for her 50th birthday in November: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kko526UpHsM&feature=youtu.be www.hpmuseum.net From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 16:01:11 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 17:01:11 -0400 Subject: Original HP 2116A is running again! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 4:29 PM, Jon Johnston wrote: > Just in time for her 50th birthday in November: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kko526UpHsM&feature=youtu.be > > www.hpmuseum.net > > > Thanks for that. I could not find much about the 2116A (2114/15) software on Bitsavers or the HP museum site. Where else does one go for these manuals? -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Apr 2 17:58:10 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 18:58:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> References: <56FEC436.9070301@bitsavers.org> <20160401192143.GA57041@night.db.net> <56FFF186.3020104@bitsavers.org> <201604022109.RAA18164@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <22E0F51E-D06A-4D51-8B86-32E01E53A93B@comcast.net> <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Anyone interested in C and UB will want to read most of John Regehr's > http://blog.regehr.org/ - it hosts some of the best material on UB. Unfortunately Mr. (I'm assuing this is appropriate given "John") Regehr is falling into the same trap he's trying to warn against: basically, assuming that the mental model he has is the only one that could ever possibly be relevant. For example, consider the "Comparisons of Pointers to Unrelated Objects" example: # define SQLITE_WITHIN(P,S,E) \ ((uintptr_t)(P)>=(uintptr_t)(S) && \ (uintptr_t)(P)<(uintptr_t)(E)) He writes that "[c]omparisons between unrelated objects destroy determinism because the allocator makes no guarantees about their relative locations". No. Comparisons between unrelated objects destroy determinism because pointers into different objects may not be comparable! He's assuming the "the entire address space is a single array of bytes (perhaps with holes)" memory model is the only possible one. He needs to talk with someone who wrote large-model 8086 code - or someone who's used the Lisp Machine C compiler I heard of that represents pointers as pairs. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 2 19:37:28 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 17:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT&T 3B2 floppy format In-Reply-To: <20160402204440.GA1044@loomcom.com> References: <20160402015300.GA30559@loomcom.com> <62F6141F-0DA2-44CD-8C3E-358ABCEA2AA3@gmail.com> <20160402204440.GA1044@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Apr 2016, Seth Morabito wrote: > After doing more experimentation this morning, I've discovered that > the data mode I should have been using was 250kbps MFM, NOT 300kbps! > After changing ImageDisk to write 250kbps (and ensuring that the > 300RPM "I" jumper was strapped on the FD55-GV), the images work > perfectly! > So, that's the secret. 3B2 floppies are DSQD 250kbps MFM. That is an issue of whether your drive is turning at 300ROPM, or at 360RPM. If you use a 55F drive, or a Tandon TM100-4, etc. such as was used on the original machine, then the drive turns at 300 RPM, and the data transfer rate is 250Kbps. OTOH, 1.2M drives trurn at 360RPM. (at loeast while doing 1.2M) SOME are dual speed, and can/will switch to 300 RPM, to use the normal 250Kbps data transfer rate, when doing something o0ther than 1.2M. Others keep turning at 360RPM, and expect you to correct for that by using a 300Kbps data transfer rate. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Apr 2 19:48:02 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 20:48:02 -0400 Subject: Original HP 2116A is running again! Message-ID: <3dec3a.3c0c01c6.4431c242@aol.com> hardware or software manuals Bill? Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 4/2/2016 3:23:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, billdegnan at gmail.com writes: On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 4:29 PM, Jon Johnston wrote: > Just in time for her 50th birthday in November: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kko526UpHsM&feature=youtu.be > > www.hpmuseum.net > > > Thanks for that. I could not find much about the 2116A (2114/15) software on Bitsavers or the HP museum site. Where else does one go for these manuals? -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Apr 2 19:48:02 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 20:48:02 -0400 Subject: Original HP 2116A is running again! Message-ID: <3dec3a.3c0c01c6.4431c242@aol.com> hardware or software manuals Bill? Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 4/2/2016 3:23:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, billdegnan at gmail.com writes: On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 4:29 PM, Jon Johnston wrote: > Just in time for her 50th birthday in November: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kko526UpHsM&feature=youtu.be > > www.hpmuseum.net > > > Thanks for that. I could not find much about the 2116A (2114/15) software on Bitsavers or the HP museum site. Where else does one go for these manuals? -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Apr 2 20:58:20 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 21:58:20 -0400 Subject: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <56FEC436.9070301@bitsavers.org> <20160401192143.GA57041@night.db.net> <56FFF186.3020104@bitsavers.org> <201604022109.RAA18164@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <22E0F51E-D06A-4D51-8B86-32E01E53A93B@comcast.net> <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <570078BC.8050002@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-02 6:58 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Anyone interested in C and UB will want to read most of John Regehr's >> http://blog.regehr.org/ - it hosts some of the best material on UB. > > Unfortunately Mr. (I'm assuing this is appropriate given "John") Regehr There's a lot more on the topic; he wrote these back in 2010: http://blog.regehr.org/archives/213 (parts 2 and 3 linked). --Toby > is falling into the same trap he's trying to warn against: basically, > assuming that the mental model he has is the only one that could ever > possibly be relevant. > ... > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From lists at loomcom.com Sat Apr 2 22:54:22 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 22:54:22 -0500 Subject: 3B2 C compiler and Assembler Message-ID: <20160403035422.GA23316@loomcom.com> Now that I have my 3B2/300 up and running, I'd like to get developer tools installed. Unfortunately, I can't find any of them on the web anywhere. Apparently what I'm looking for are the following packages: * "C Programming Language Utilities" * "Software Generation Utilities" * "Extended Software Generation Utilities" Apparently these three packages are contained on five diskettes. If anyone has these, or can track them down, please let me know! -Seth From me at xenu.pl Sat Apr 2 23:19:37 2016 From: me at xenu.pl (Tomasz Konojacki) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2016 06:19:37 +0200 Subject: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 18:58:10 -0400 (EDT) Mouse wrote: > He's assuming the "the entire address space is a single > array of bytes (perhaps with holes)" memory model is the only possible > one. He needs to talk with someone who wrote large-model 8086 code - > or someone who's used the Lisp Machine C compiler I heard of that > represents pointers as pairs Indeed, intel segmented memory model was weird. Near pointers were uncomparable between the segments, but it wasn't that unintuitive. Far pointers were insanity-inducing, though. Since there were multiple ways to represent the same address as a far pointer, there was completely no point in doing any comparisons (unless you normalized them, of course). Thankfully, huge pointers behaved exactly as one would expect, i.e. just like pointers work in the protected mode. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 23:39:39 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 23:39:39 -0500 Subject: Mac SE/30 pincushioning and flicker In-Reply-To: <56A0153D66EF8B17.9DB94B30-D9EC-49A7-AC8B-31E4BC7047BC@mail.outlook.com> References: <56A0153D66EF8B17.9DB94B30-D9EC-49A7-AC8B-31E4BC7047BC@mail.outlook.com> Message-ID: It's been years since I've had to do any board-level work on the compact Macs. But in virtually every one I opened up, there was an issue with that dang multi-pin power connector, as it leaves the analog board. In almost all cases, there were cracked solder joints on the board-side of the connector. Had this in Plus, SE, SE/30 and one Classic IIRC. Carefully resoldering / reflowing them fixed the issues. It's one of those things - if you haven't done it yet, do it just for drill - get it out of the way. If you want to get fresh, solder-suck as much of the old as you can, and resolder it with SN63/37 material. That's all I've got. ;-) On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > The flicker is gonna likely be aging capacitors on the analog board. > Ideally you'd replace these. > For the pincushion I believe there are magnets on the yoke that can be > adjusted... > > Sent from Outlook for iPhone > > > > > On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 2:51 AM -0700, "David Griffith" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I recapped a Mac SE/30 a few months back and only just now put it back > together. After a false start with dirty contacts on the ROM simm and > resulting irregular vertical bars, the machine is working again. There > are no more zipping sounds coming out of the speaker. Two problems > remain: > > 1) There is slight pincushioning along the bottom of the CRT, about a > third of the way in from the left. > > 2) The CRT produces a rather noticable and irritating flicker. I don't > remember the one-piece Macs flickering like this. > > I think a cleverly-placed magnet might fix the pincushioning and recapping > the analogue board would remedy the flicker. Can I get some thoughts, > commentary, and suggestions on this? > > > -- > David Griffith > dave at 661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > > > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 01:44:07 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2016 23:44:07 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B2 floppy format In-Reply-To: <20160402204440.GA1044@loomcom.com> References: <20160402015300.GA30559@loomcom.com> <62F6141F-0DA2-44CD-8C3E-358ABCEA2AA3@gmail.com> <20160402204440.GA1044@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <2607F643-3A3A-49F1-95FC-057492F0F60E@gmail.com> * On Fri, Apr 01, 2016 at 11:41:01PM -0700, Curious Marc wrote: It looks like you did everything right. However I thought one specifies interleave directly in the BIN2IMD command using the DM=3 option. I see you have DM=4 on your command line. But since you can load the kernel that might not be the source of your problem. Having a disk being formatted in one drive not readable in another could simply be that one of the two drives is misaligned. Or some silly difference with the track width between the two heads of your later HD drive and the earlier QD drive, although since they are both 80 tracks that should not be. BTW, can you do the reverse, format a disk in your AT&T and recover every sector through IMD on your PC? In this case there might be an option in ImageDisk to write without formatting. I think you can do that with Omnidisk. Marc Hi Marc, DM=3 in the BIN2IMD arguments list has nothing to do with interleaving. It specifies Data Mode 3, 300kbps MFM. But it turns out, this WAS my problem! After doing more experimentation this morning, I've discovered that the data mode I should have been using was 250kbps MFM, NOT 300kbps! After changing ImageDisk to write 250kbps (and ensuring that the 300RPM "I" jumper was strapped on the FD55-GV), the images work perfectly! So, that's the secret. 3B2 floppies are DSQD 250kbps MFM. Whew! -Seth Oh, oops, I should have checked the doc rather than writing from memory. I am glad your problem is solved though! The floppy many drives, track density, rotation speeds, bit rates, modulation formats and sectoring are such a mess, congratulations on solving the riddle, that?s no small feat. Marc From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 01:36:48 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2016 23:36:48 -0700 Subject: Original HP 2116A is running again! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <357591E3-3747-4802-8FDC-60900FA5A98C@gmail.com> Just in time for her 50th birthday in November: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kko526UpHsM&feature=youtu.be www.hpmuseum.net Awesome! Your museum site is such an incredible resource when it comes to restoring HP equipment! I hope I can pay you a visit the next time I am in Melbourne (that where you are, right?). BTW we have a 2116 (I?m not sure if it?s an A, I?ll check) on display at the CHM. Would be nice to bring it back to life too... Marc From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Apr 3 03:02:57 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 04:02:57 -0400 Subject: Original HP 2116A is running again! Message-ID: <1b6d39.453d1bdd.44322831@aol.com> I remember part of the history mentioning they wanted it to be known as an instrument controller at first.... Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 4/3/2016 12:12:19 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com writes: Good work on getting the 2116A working again. Anyone care to speculate on the initial low sales of the 2116A? was it because HP weren't well known for producing computers at the time or was the $22K asking price too high compared with say DEC's less than $10K for a PDP-8? From supervinx at libero.it Sun Apr 3 02:01:58 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2016 09:01:58 +0200 Subject: RSX-11M trouble In-Reply-To: <9ACD9487-04A1-41E3-B83C-48344EDCA831@MatlockFamily.com> References: <9ACD9487-04A1-41E3-B83C-48344EDCA831@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: <1459666918.3253.32.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Well.. The RSXM70.dsk has many TSKs not built. How can I build them? From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sun Apr 3 02:12:10 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 17:12:10 +1000 Subject: Original HP 2116A is running again! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good work on getting the 2116A working again. Anyone care to speculate on the initial low sales of the 2116A? was it because HP weren't well known for producing computers at the time or was the $22K asking price too high compared with say DEC's less than $10K for a PDP-8? From supervinx at libero.it Sun Apr 3 02:23:49 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2016 09:23:49 +0200 Subject: RSX-11M trouble In-Reply-To: <9ACD9487-04A1-41E3-B83C-48344EDCA831@MatlockFamily.com> References: <9ACD9487-04A1-41E3-B83C-48344EDCA831@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: <1459668229.3253.37.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Well... the only indirect command processor present on RSXM70.DSK was ICX.TSK I transferred it from simh RX50 disk image to a RT-11 formatted floppy with PUTR (copy /binary) and then with FLX FLX> DU0:=DU1:ICX.TSK /RT Then > REM ...AT. > INS $ICX.TSK >@[1,2]STARTUP.CMD and got a BIG system crash So they are definitely not compatible. I've got a 4.2 RSX-11M plus tape set. I'll try to install it on simh and see if they are binary compatibles... From abs at absd.org Sun Apr 3 03:49:29 2016 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 09:49:29 +0100 Subject: USB on a TURBOchannel {VAX,DECstation,Alpha} Message-ID: For anyone who has ever felt the urge to have a USB port on their VAX (or similar) http://www.flxd.de/tc-usb/ Now if only we could find someone who wanted to write a lot of VMS driver code.... :-p From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 07:27:48 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 14:27:48 +0200 Subject: Xerox 8010 Star software on Ebay. Message-ID: Just saw this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/331820201025 In case someone is interested. I was unable to quickly figure out if it already was archived on bitsavers. /Mattis From supervinx at libero.it Sun Apr 3 07:59:37 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2016 14:59:37 +0200 Subject: R: RE: RSX-11M trouble Message-ID: Hmmm.... RSX-11Mplus 4.2 aren't recognized as TSK images by "normal" 4.2 From ed at groenenberg.net Sun Apr 3 06:34:25 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 13:34:25 +0200 (CEST) Subject: RSX-11M trouble In-Reply-To: <1459666918.3253.32.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <9ACD9487-04A1-41E3-B83C-48344EDCA831@MatlockFamily.com> <1459666918.3253.32.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: <42980.10.10.10.2.1459683265.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Sun, April 3, 2016 09:01, supervinx wrote: > Well.. > The RSXM70.dsk has many TSKs not built. > How can I build them? > > A standard RSX-11m distribution in a so called 'Baseline' system which boots an nearly all PDP-11's and is a very basic system. Normally you do a sysgen to build a target system of your needs, i.e. you specify the processor type and which devices are on the target system like the communication adapters, tapes and drives. If that disk (rsxm70.dsk) is a baseline distribution disk, you start with the system generation which is quite fun to do (although on a real system it can take a few hours). BTW, the '70' in the name refers to base line version 70 afair. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From supervinx at libero.it Sun Apr 3 07:58:20 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2016 14:58:20 +0200 Subject: Looking for RSX-11M V4.2 images Message-ID: <8rh392ikl3ljms0mnx8vbsts.1459688300596@email.android.com> I'm looking for RSX-11M V4.2, not plus. Thanks From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Apr 3 08:44:26 2016 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2016 08:44:26 -0500 Subject: PCP11-E board In-Reply-To: <56CC10AF.7080709@jwsss.com> References: <56CC10AF.7080709@jwsss.com> Message-ID: At 02:56 AM 2/23/2016, jwsmobile wrote: >I have a PCP-11E board, which I'd like people to comment on, perhaps point me at some documentation if you know of any. Google is saturated with references for the three letter acronym for a controlled substance, nothing much has showed up, and the manufacturer was not very proud of the board, so that won't reduce ambiguity in searching for info. Did you put the phrase in quotes like "pcp-11e"? That greatly increases the quality of the search results. - John From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Apr 3 08:56:14 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 09:56:14 -0400 Subject: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> Message-ID: > On Apr 3, 2016, at 12:19 AM, Tomasz Konojacki wrote: > > On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 18:58:10 -0400 (EDT) > Mouse wrote: > >> He's assuming the "the entire address space is a single >> array of bytes (perhaps with holes)" memory model is the only possible >> one. He needs to talk with someone who wrote large-model 8086 code - >> or someone who's used the Lisp Machine C compiler I heard of that >> represents pointers as pairs > > Indeed, intel segmented memory model was weird. Near pointers were > uncomparable between the segments, but it wasn't that unintuitive. > > Far pointers were insanity-inducing, though. Since there were multiple > ways to represent the same address as a far pointer, there was completely > no point in doing any comparisons (unless you normalized them, of course). > > Thankfully, huge pointers behaved exactly as one would expect, i.e. just > like pointers work in the protected mode. There we have the issue. Often when people speak of what they "expect" you're looking at an assumption about a C program that the standard does not allow you to make. It's "expectations" of how particular compilers have worked in the past, how they have compiled programs that are in fact "undefined", that gets you in trouble. When a better compiler (with more powerful optimization) breaks the program, the compiler is blamed rather than the programmer who made the incorrect assumption. Ideally compilers would flag all undefined programs, but in practice they do not. I'm not sure that in C such a thing is even possible; C is not what you would call a sanely designed language. This paper https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/papers/ub:apsys12.pdf is an excellent survey. paul From wulfman at wulfman.com Sun Apr 3 09:12:39 2016 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 07:12:39 -0700 Subject: Britain's first mass-produced business computer is now on display Message-ID: <570124D7.6020507@wulfman.com> http://www.gizmag.com/britain-computer-mass-produced-first-public/42595/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Apr 3 09:17:30 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 10:17:30 -0400 Subject: Britain's first mass-produced business computer is now on display In-Reply-To: <570124D7.6020507@wulfman.com> References: <570124D7.6020507@wulfman.com> Message-ID: <801B0E17-51DB-40E7-9EA7-602C140EF567@comcast.net> > On Apr 3, 2016, at 10:12 AM, wulfman wrote: > > > http://www.gizmag.com/britain-computer-mass-produced-first-public/42595/ Nice. It seems that the claim that Booth invented the first drum memory is not supported by history. It may be that his particular drum memory was the first commercial product. paul From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 09:48:50 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2016 09:48:50 -0500 Subject: Favorite Resolution && favorite monitor, sound, video, and capture (retro) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57012D52.4070302@gmail.com> On 04/01/2016 11:07 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > Favorite LCD Monitor line: NEC Multisync, Dell Ultrasharp I think the only one I've got (out of seven or so) which will accept the oddball-frequency VGA from some of Apple's old machines is a Dell, although I'd have to check the model number. > Favorite CRT Monitor line: Iiyama (Sony Trinitron as a runner up) For consumer-grade displays, I'd agree with Iiyama - I loved those screens. I had a 17" and 21" one when I lived in the UK; the picture quality and specs were great, they'd do SoG, and having both VGA and BNC inputs was handy as I could have a PC and a Sun hooked up together. I've been keeping my eye out for one ever since moving to the US, but all I've ever found is crappy Gateway and Dell stuff (and a Viewsonic which is slightly better, but still garbage) > Favorite display Devices: SGI O2 CRM graphics, The Voodoo3 for PC, The > VillageTronic Picasso IV for the Amiga. I think the most-impressive-for-its-time one I've got is the Max Impact board set (with the extra TRAM) that's in my Indigo2. > Favorite Retro Sound Cards: Gravis Ultrasound for PC, Sound Blaster emu10k > ("Pro" PCI cards), Amiga Studio 16, SGI DM8 for SGI/IRIX, Pro Audio > Spectrum for 68k macs. Never was much of an audio person, but I did have a PAS16 for my PC in the early '90s, which came in handy a few times just for the SCSI interface (which was supported under Linux) > The biggest downside to the NEC monitors is that few of them support > composite or S-Video. I picked up an old JAMMA arcade board a while ago and managed to get it running, feeding the video output via a resistor network and dumping it onto an old green-screen monitor turned up onto its side. But I really need something here which can do 15KHz RGB - I keep wondering if I can hack an old TV and feed the sync information in via a composite->RF box, but work out where the RGB information is extracted and just tap the RGB in at that point. I know a few companies would do conversions like that back in the day, but I don't know how easy it is. > I'm getting interested in projectors, too. However, I'm doubting I'll find > one that's bright enough and will do all the video modes I want (ie.. mix > of sync-on-green with composite etc..) Someone gave me an old 16mm Bell & Howell a few weeks ago, but I suspect that's not the kind of projector you're talking about ;-) Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 3 10:55:23 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 08:55:23 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: Original HP 2116A is running again! In-Reply-To: <57013C99.9050104@bitsavers.org> References: <57013C99.9050104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <57013CEB.7000901@bitsavers.org> -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: Original HP 2116A is running again! Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 08:54:01 -0700 From: Al Kossow Reply-To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts To: cctech at classiccmp.org On 4/2/16 2:01 PM, william degnan wrote: > Thanks for that. I could not find much about the 2116A (2114/15) software > on Bitsavers or the HP museum site. Where else does one go for these > manuals? > I have a bunch scanned, just need to post-process them. Now that tumble is running in my new workflow, I'll see what I can do. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 3 11:33:54 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 17:33:54 +0100 Subject: VR241 Substitute Message-ID: <06f901d18dc6$9d173580$d745a080$@ntlworld.com> I could do with getting hold of a VR241, but these seem to be pretty unobtainable. So the alternative is to rig up an adapter of some kind to work with a VGA LCD, which also saves on space. I came across the following: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?38450-VR241-substitute-for-Rainbow -VT240-etc, has anyone else tried this with success? Regards Rob From supervinx at libero.it Sun Apr 3 12:33:00 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2016 19:33:00 +0200 Subject: R: RE: RSX-11M trouble In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1459704780.2349.18.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Il giorno dom, 03/04/2016 alle 14.59 +0200, supervinx ha scritto: > Hmmm.... RSX-11Mplus 4.2 aren't recognized as TSK images by "normal" 4.2 Well... the files have been correctly transferred... i did a DMP on both sides so definitely I need a 4.2 non plus. From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Apr 3 12:35:29 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 11:35:29 -0600 Subject: DECmate II Questions In-Reply-To: <103A8EF1-07D5-4EC0-8C38-66FB4F565303@comcast.net> References: <065101d18d04$ec47a940$c4d6fbc0$@ntlworld.com> <103A8EF1-07D5-4EC0-8C38-66FB4F565303@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Apr 2, 2016, at 1:27 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > > > I have been looking at my DECmate II recently. I got an Italian version > of > > WPS 1.0 for it and that works fine, except that I don't have an Italian > > keyboard so finding some of the characters is a bit tricky. :) > > ... > > Any recommendations for how best to image RX50 diskettes? I want to > preserve > > the diskettes I have. > > Are they the same format (80 tracks, 10 sectors, 512 bytes) as the RX50 on > PDP11s? If yes, you can either use a PDP11, or you can configure Linux to > 10 sector per track format and use dd. If the sector ordering is as > strange as on the PDP11, dd will get the data very much out of order, but > it should all be there. I can find the PDP11 interleave rules if you need > them. > They are similar to the PDP-11 layout, with special rules for tracks 0, 1 and 79 IIRC. So long as you are using a compatible floppy drive, you'll be able to read / write them. I've connected my RX-50 from my DEC Rainbow 100B to a PC controller in the past with some luck in reading writing the disks (raw mode only). I've also had good luck with the TEAC 55F. Other models, like ones in IBM PC AT and newer that do 1.2 MB have 'issues' creating readable RX-50 disks. DD certainly would be one way to image them. However, there's a caveat with that. DD will read the sectors labeled 1, 2, 3, ... 10 in that order. However, if you read the entire track off the disk you'll find they are stored in 1 6 2 7 3 8 4 9 5 10 order (again, IIRC, the order is different, but might not be this exactly). Back in the day, people (not me) reported success of duplicating via dd, only to find that the performance really sucked. My brain can't recall if this was on the PDP-11 / Professional formatted disks, or on the DECmate II disks. Wish I could be more helpful. Here's a link that has all the details that my brain is likely recalling wrong: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/docs/rx50faq.doc Warner From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 3 13:11:40 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 11:11:40 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B2 floppy format In-Reply-To: <20160402015300.GA30559@loomcom.com> References: <20160402015300.GA30559@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <57015CDC.1060507@sydex.com> Yesterday I was about to suggest that the 300Kbps/300rpm mixup might be the problem, but I figured that it would surface eventually. IMD does have an RPM-checking routine--I use it frequently when modifying 2.0MB 3.5" drives to masquerade as 1.6MB ones. It ensures me that the result will behave as intended. The difference between 300 and 360 RPM is on the hairy edge of the capture range of most data separators, so simply reading a floppy is no guarantee of success when writing one that's been formatted at the incorrect bit clock/rpm rate. But I'm certain that you've been adequately instructed by experience and will sin no more... :) All the best, Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Apr 3 13:43:25 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 14:43:25 -0400 Subject: DECmate II Questions In-Reply-To: References: <065101d18d04$ec47a940$c4d6fbc0$@ntlworld.com> <103A8EF1-07D5-4EC0-8C38-66FB4F565303@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 3, 2016, at 1:35 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > ... > DD certainly would be one way to image them. However, there's a caveat with > that. DD > will read the sectors labeled 1, 2, 3, ... 10 in that order. However, if > you read the entire track > off the disk you'll find they are stored in 1 6 2 7 3 8 4 9 5 10 order > (again, IIRC, the order is > different, but might not be this exactly). Back in the day, people (not me) > reported success of > duplicating via dd, only to find that the performance really sucked. My > brain can't recall if > this was on the PDP-11 / Professional formatted disks, or on the DECmate II > disks. I was assuming that you'd use dd both to save and to restore the disks, or to create disk images to be read by something that expects sectors in physical order. That way, it doesn't matter what the interleave rule is. On the PDP11, there is both 2:1 interleaving and track skew. Also, for some bizarre reason, logical track 0 is physical track 1, while physical track 0 holds logical track 79. The equations are: phys track = ((lba + 10) / 10) mod 80 phys sec = ((sec mod 5) * 2 + ((sec / 5) mod 2) + (sec / 10) * 3 if I translated from the original Macro-11 correctly.... :-) On the Pro, the driver handles that translation; on other PDP11s where the RX50 is connected to an MSCP controller, the controller does the job, but the address mapping is the same in both cases. paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 3 13:51:39 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 18:51:39 +0000 Subject: VR241 Substitute In-Reply-To: <06f901d18dc6$9d173580$d745a080$@ntlworld.com> References: <06f901d18dc6$9d173580$d745a080$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > > I could do with getting hold of a VR241, but these seem to be pretty > unobtainable. So the alternative is to rig up an adapter of some kind to > work with a VGA LCD, which also saves on space. I came across the following: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?38450-VR241-substitute-for-Rainbow > -VT240-etc, has anyone else tried this with success? If it's any help, the VR241 is a (US) TV rate monitor with analogue RGB inputs. It can be switched between separate composite sync (on a 4th BNC socket) and sync-on- green, with the Rainbow, Pro 300 series and VT240 it is used in the latter mode. I would guess the DECmate also uses SOG. Not that it matters here, but the original VR241 is a Hitachi chassis with features you might expect from that manufacturer. The deflection circuit is based round a thick-film hybrid module contain an IC for both oscillators and power transistors for the vertical output stage. The power supply is driven (when running) from the horizontal output stage, this means a ridiculously complex startup circuit... -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 3 13:55:02 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 11:55:02 -0700 Subject: Xerox 8010 Star software on Ebay. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57016706.9060508@bitsavers.org> On 4/3/16 5:27 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Just saw this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/331820201025 > > In case someone is interested. I was unable to quickly figure out if it > already was archived on bitsavers. > > /Mattis > I don't appear to have it uploaded. Maybe I can work something out with Frotz to get it. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Apr 3 13:59:02 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2016 19:59:02 +0100 Subject: VR241 Substitute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 03/04/2016 19:51, "tony duell" wrote: >> >> I could do with getting hold of a VR241, but these seem to be pretty >> unobtainable. So the alternative is to rig up an adapter of some kind to >> work with a VGA LCD, which also saves on space. I came across the following: >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?38450-VR241-substitute-for-Rainbow >> -VT240-etc, has anyone else tried this with success? > > If it's any help, the VR241 is a (US) TV rate monitor with analogue RGB > inputs. It can > be switched between separate composite sync (on a 4th BNC socket) and sync-on- > green, with the Rainbow, Pro 300 series and VT240 it is used in the latter > mode. I would guess the DECmate also uses SOG. Also also possibly any help - I used a VR241 monitor on an Amiga 500 for years with a cable I knocked up out of a VAXstation monitor cable and a 23-pin clamshell which was almost unobtanium in those days, so if you have a monitor that works with an A500 you stand a chance of getting it working with other things. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 3 13:59:51 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 11:59:51 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: Original HP 2116A is running again! In-Reply-To: <57013CEB.7000901@bitsavers.org> References: <57013C99.9050104@bitsavers.org> <57013CEB.7000901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <57016827.6050402@bitsavers.org> On 4/3/16 8:55 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I have a bunch scanned, just need to post-process them. Now that tumble > is running in my new workflow, I'll see what I can do. > when I get them uploaded, they will be under 21xx/bcs, /dos, etc. Currently the 1969 DOS manual is the only thing up. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 3 14:08:08 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 19:08:08 +0000 Subject: VR241 Substitute In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > Also also possibly any help - I used a VR241 monitor on an Amiga 500 for > years with a cable I knocked up out of a VAXstation monitor cable and a > 23-pin clamshell which was almost unobtanium in those days, so if you have a > monitor that works with an A500 you stand a chance of getting it working > with other things. My guess (and I have not tried it) is that a TV with a SCART socket could be used in place of the VR241 with a bit of fiddling (maybe a sync separator). -tony From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Apr 3 14:25:04 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 15:25:04 -0400 Subject: Original HP 2116A is running again! Message-ID: <49ae4d.4d7ea4b5.4432c810@aol.com> That is really neat to have an "A" We have a few manuals in the library and a few paper tapes. BUT! we recently were shipped crates of paper, some of which I never saw before in my life. There are some HP manuals in there Similar to what Al is mentioning. I will have to look again to see if we have anything out of the ordinary aside from the basic manual set. We have a 2116"B" here which was the Phx Union HS HP-2000 2000A main processor than became the I/O processor for their HP-2000F when Computer Exchange Inc. bought it. Unfortunately when I retired in the early 90's I did not save all the paper tape. I have the stuff in the drawer in the 2000 ACCESS cabinet ( yea was a neat addition to add a pull out drawer in the cabinet to keep taps, pens and etc in!) A few white boxes showed up in the garage at home I noticed recently when cleaning... always grateful to find neat stuff that got misplaced over 20 years ago.... We will wait to see what Al comes up with and see if a fill is needed from our sloooowwwwwwwww scanner..... Ed From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 3 10:54:01 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 08:54:01 -0700 Subject: Original HP 2116A is running again! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57013C99.9050104@bitsavers.org> On 4/2/16 2:01 PM, william degnan wrote: > Thanks for that. I could not find much about the 2116A (2114/15) software > on Bitsavers or the HP museum site. Where else does one go for these > manuals? > I have a bunch scanned, just need to post-process them. Now that tumble is running in my new workflow, I'll see what I can do. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 11:05:57 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 18:05:57 +0200 Subject: VMS Software In-Reply-To: <56FFEE1C.2030304@bitsavers.org> References: <56FFEE1C.2030304@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: We (VMS Software, Inc.) are the current developers of VMS, but not the owners of any of the older stuff, that's still HPE. Camiel Op 2 apr. 2016 6:06 p.m. schreef "Al Kossow" : > > > On 4/1/16 10:59 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > Bitsavers.org for example. >> >> > I have a large collection of VAX condists at the museum. > The issue is making them available. > Since a few of the current VMS owners are on the list, opinions would > be appreciated. > They will be imaged at some point and the images put into CHM's internal > dark archive. > > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Apr 3 14:42:40 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 15:42:40 -0400 Subject: Original HP 2116A is running again! Message-ID: <49bd2a.51794c04.4432cc30@aol.com> what is tumble? Ed# In a message dated 4/3/2016 12:41:59 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, aek at bitsavers.org writes: On 4/2/16 2:01 PM, william degnan wrote: > Thanks for that. I could not find much about the 2116A (2114/15) software > on Bitsavers or the HP museum site. Where else does one go for these > manuals? > I have a bunch scanned, just need to post-process them. Now that tumble is running in my new workflow, I'll see what I can do. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Apr 3 14:42:40 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 15:42:40 -0400 Subject: Original HP 2116A is running again! Message-ID: <49bd2a.51794c04.4432cc30@aol.com> what is tumble? Ed# In a message dated 4/3/2016 12:41:59 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, aek at bitsavers.org writes: On 4/2/16 2:01 PM, william degnan wrote: > Thanks for that. I could not find much about the 2116A (2114/15) software > on Bitsavers or the HP museum site. Where else does one go for these > manuals? > I have a bunch scanned, just need to post-process them. Now that tumble is running in my new workflow, I'll see what I can do. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 3 14:53:59 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 15:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> Message-ID: <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Indeed, intel segmented memory model was weird. [...] >> Far pointers were insanity-inducing, though. Since there were >> multiple ways to represent the same address as a far pointer, [...] >> Thankfully, huge pointers behaved exactly as one would expect, [...] > There we have the issue. Often when people speak of what they "expect" you'$ (Please don't use paragraph-length lines.) Yes and no. A lot of C is undefined, or implementation-defined, to allow different disagreeing implementations to coexist. Someone writing under and for one particular implementation may indeed reasonably expect certain behaviour that the standard does not promise - for example, if I'm writing for a SS-20, I consider it reasonable to expect ints to be 32-bit two's-complement, even though C qua C does not promise either part of that, and, while a new compiler may in principle break either part or both, it would have to violate the "int is the `natural' integer type for the architecture" principle to do so. Another part of this is that C originated as, and is still used as, an OS implementation language. In such use, it is not unreasonable to treat it as the "high-level assembly language" some people have called it - apparently intending it to be a criticism while not understanding that, in some senses, that's what C is _supposed_ to be. And, from that point of view, compilers that take advantage of formally-undefined behaviour to optimize things as sketched here and in Mr. Regehr's writings are not clever; they are broken. I don't think either position is unreasonable, either. Which I suppose really means that I think there are places both for compilers that act like high-level assemblers, doing the unsurprising thing from the POV of someone familiar with the architecture being compiled for, and for compilers that take advantage of all the liberty the language spec allows to optimize the hell out of the code. I'm not sure there is any fix for the problems arising when people try to satisfy both desires with the same compiler (or the same set of configuration switches to a single compiler, or some such). It's basically the "is this language right for this task?" problem in slightly different dress. > When a better compiler (with more powerful optimization) breaks the > program, the compiler is blamed rather than the programmer who made > the incorrect assumption. Or, to see it from the "high-level assembly" position, when a less appropriate compiler (with more aggressive optimization) is used, it is, correctly, blamed (for not being apporpriate to the task at hand). > Ideally compilers would flag all undefined programs, but in practice they do$ It's not possible in general, because sometimes the undefined behaviour depends on something not known until run time. Consider int v; scanf("%d",&v); printf("%d",v+1); This is perfectly well-defined - until and unless someone feeds it (a suitable textual representation of) INT_MAX. There might be a place for a compiler that flagged every instance of undefined behaviour, even if it means otherwise unnecessary run-time costs, but for most purposes that would be a Bad Thing. (I've often contemplated building a `checkout' compiler that deliberately went out of its way to break various assumptions people tend to make that aren't promised, things like "all pointers are really just memory addresses, with pointer casts being no-ops" or "all signed arithmetic is two's-complement" or "the stack grows down" or "pointers into different objects are comparable" or "shims are inserted into structs only when necessary to avoid placing objects at unusual alignments" or "there are no padding bits in integer representations" or "nil pointers are all-bits-zero"....) > This paper https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/papers/ub:apsys12.pdf is an > excellent survey. A pity pdos.csail.mit.edu is willing to impair its accessibility for the sake of..I'm not sure what..by refusing to serve it over HTTP. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 15:31:15 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 16:31:15 -0400 Subject: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mouse" To: Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2016 3:53 PM > (Please don't use paragraph-length lines.) Why not? Is your email client incapable of wrapping text? m From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 15:35:26 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 16:35:26 -0400 Subject: 3.5" 3-mode drives References: <20160402015300.GA30559@loomcom.com> <57015CDC.1060507@sydex.com> Message-ID: <61864344A96E4507A7FB9ECD89CAC3F1@310e2> Hi Chuck, What 3.5" drives have you found that can do 1.6MB mode without major mods? I'm aware of : Alps DF354N Samsung SFD-321B Sony MPF920-E TEAC FD-235HG TEAC FD-05HG Any others? TIA, m ------------------- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2016 2:11 PM Subject: Re: AT&T 3B2 floppy format > Yesterday I was about to suggest that the 300Kbps/300rpm mixup might be > the problem, but I figured that it would surface eventually. > > IMD does have an RPM-checking routine--I use it frequently when > modifying 2.0MB 3.5" drives to masquerade as 1.6MB ones. It ensures me > that the result will behave as intended. > > The difference between 300 and 360 RPM is on the hairy edge of the > capture range of most data separators, so simply reading a floppy is no > guarantee of success when writing one that's been formatted at the > incorrect bit clock/rpm rate. > > But I'm certain that you've been adequately instructed by experience and > will sin no more... :) > > All the best, > Chuck > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 3 15:44:10 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 13:44:10 -0700 Subject: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> Message-ID: <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> On 04/03/2016 01:31 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Why not? Is your email client incapable of wrapping text? Well, paragraph/lines is the way most email clients function nowadays. Maybe there's a setting in Thunderbird that wraps the lines on writing a new email, but most clients are perfectly happy to wrap incoming mail to fit the windows/screen size. At least we're not putting our mail in WINMAIL.DAT attachments. But I'll be happy to comply to the wishes for preformatted text; just tell me how. --Chuck From macro at linux-mips.org Sun Apr 3 15:56:36 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 21:56:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Why not? Is your email client incapable of wrapping text? > > Well, paragraph/lines is the way most email clients function nowadays. Maybe > there's a setting in Thunderbird that wraps the lines on writing a new email, > but most clients are perfectly happy to wrap incoming mail to fit the > windows/screen size. Sane e-mail clients which want paragraph/line will send flowed text, per RFC 3676, with lines still correctly split to cope with length limitations imposed by other relevant standards and implementations, and to aid with correct quotation in replies. Maciej From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 3 16:18:15 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 22:18:15 +0100 Subject: VR241 Substitute In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <071c01d18dee$56510c20$02f32460$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 03 April 2016 20:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: VR241 Substitute > > > > > Also also possibly any help - I used a VR241 monitor on an Amiga 500 > > for years with a cable I knocked up out of a VAXstation monitor cable > > and a 23-pin clamshell which was almost unobtanium in those days, so > > if you have a monitor that works with an A500 you stand a chance of > > getting it working with other things. > > My guess (and I have not tried it) is that a TV with a SCART socket could be > used in place of the VR241 with a bit of fiddling (maybe a sync separator). > > -tony Well, I don't have an A500, but I do have an LCD monitor that does SOG. So it sounds like all I need to do is get the DECmate's output through to the LCD monitor and the keyboard input to the DECmate, is that right? If so, I have one of those DEC cables that has a keyboard connector on it and RGB plugs (their proper name is escaping me right now), and a cable that converts those RGB plugs to a VGA connector. Assuming the computer end of the cable matches the DECmate's pinout, I may be able to rig up what will probably look an unsightly mess into something that will work. I will have to check pinouts, but I will give it a go. Regards Rob From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Apr 3 16:04:46 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 14:04:46 -0700 Subject: List of HP 9000 200/300 i/O modules in plain text Message-ID: I'm looking for a list of the I/O modules that is in plain text before I start making one from surfing the web. Anyone have one ? -pete From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Apr 3 17:41:41 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 18:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD Message-ID: <20160403224141.E5E5B18C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mouse > A pity pdos.csail.mit.edu is willing to impair its accessibility for > the sake of..I'm not sure what..by refusing to serve it over HTTP. It's the latest cretinous-lemming craze in the world of high tech - we _MUST_ hide all our bits in encryption, because otherwise some dastardly, evil government agency will peer at them ... or something like that. Let's all just conveniently ignore the fact that if said government agency/ies _really_ wanted to know what someone was doing online, they'd perhaps infect that machine's bloat-/Swiss-cheese-ware, which passes for contemporary 'best software practices', with a virus that would report every keystroke ... or something like that. Never mind! Everyone turning on mandatory HTTPS on their server, refusing to even deign to talk to you without it, can sleep the oblivious sleep of the morally superior, rigidly secure in the knowledge that they have done their bit in the crucial fight of out time, to protect privacy and human rights. ... Or something like that. Sorry. You pressed one of my hot buttons - one that is connected to several other of my hot buttons. Noel From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 3 20:32:43 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 21:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> Message-ID: <201604040132.VAA17232@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> (Please don't use paragraph-length lines.) > Why not? Is your email client incapable of wrapping text? No; it just assumes that - if the text is not marked as reflowable - that it shouldn't mangle it by inserting line breaks that weren't there in the original. It is obnoxious to have a long line (say, a compile line quoted from make output) mangled into illegibility by gratuitiously inserted line breaks; it is perhaps even worse to have multiple short lines pasted together by gratuitously deleted line breaks. Each of those behaviours is broken. (When applied to text not marked reflowable, that is. If the text is marked reflowable, then either behaviour is fine - but such text needs to not only be marked but be wrapped in accordance with the format=flowed spec.) I can, of course, rewrap text no matter how it's marked, just as I can undo rot13, translate from EBCDIC, etc - but, as with those, it's an additional step and thus impairs readability. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 3 20:48:55 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 21:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Why not? Is your email client incapable of wrapping text? > Well, paragraph/lines is the way most email clients function > nowadays. Windows is the way most computers function nowadays. Shall we therefore reject any suggestion that Windows is not the way everyone should work? :-) (My point is that popularity, in itself, should not be taken as a recommendation.) > Maybe there's a setting in Thunderbird that wraps the lines on > writing a new email, I should certainly hope so; if not, I would call it broken and most certainly would say it should not be used (at least not for arm's-length email; for email between mutually consenting parties with prearrangement, anything agreeable to all parties goes). Or unless the user is willing to manually insert suitable line breaks, I suppose; personally, I maintain that the software should adapt to the human, not the other way around, in such cases. > but most clients are perfectly happy to wrap incoming mail to fit the > windows/screen size. Perhaps, but (a) not everyone reads mail with "client"s (my MUA, for example, is not a client in any meaningful sense) and (b) we're back to popularity being used as a touchstone of goodness, as if anything that's popular is necessarily acceptable. > But I'll be happy to comply to the wishes for preformatted text; just > tell me how. I'd say, for running text, wrap somewhere before 80 characters per line (preferably before about 78, since some programs lose a column or two on display - personally, I wrap at column 72). I'm sure others will differ in various details, but I suspect most will probably be somewhere close to that. Of course, if you have something where line breaks have semantic relevance, such as output from a build script, leave the breaks where they belong unless you have some _really_ long lines (1000 chars or thereabouts, I think, is the SMTP maximum), in which case you can either go ahead and break them manually (preferably with a warning in accompanying text), encode the output with base64 or btoa or uuencode or some such, put the output up for fetching somewhere and just provide a link to it, etc. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 3 20:53:50 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 18:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > I'd say, for running text, wrap somewhere before 80 characters per line > (preferably before about 78, since some programs lose a column or two > on display - personally, I wrap at column 72). I'm sure others will > differ in various details, but I suspect most will probably be > somewhere close to that. If you don't wrap by 72, then there won't be room on the card for serial number, and it will be hard to reassemble a dropped deck. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Apr 3 21:19:46 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 22:19:46 -0400 Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5701CF42.6000404@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-03 9:48 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> Why not? Is your email client incapable of wrapping text? >> Well, paragraph/lines is the way most email clients function >> nowadays. > > Windows is the way most computers function nowadays. ... > >> Maybe there's a setting in Thunderbird that wraps the lines on >> writing a new email, > > I should certainly hope so; if not, I would call it broken ... If we're doing 'the right way to email' AGAIN, at least have the courtesy of changing THE SUBJECT LINE. --Toby > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 21:34:19 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 22:34:19 -0400 Subject: Wrap or not - was C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <201604040132.VAA17232@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <7D3257FF6FC44B25A4ABB60AEBC631A1@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mouse" To: Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2016 9:32 PM Subject: Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD >>> (Please don't use paragraph-length lines.) >> Why not? Is your email client incapable of wrapping text? > > No; it just assumes that - if the text is not marked as reflowable - > that it shouldn't mangle it by inserting line breaks that weren't there > in the original. It is obnoxious to have a long line (say, a compile > line quoted from make output) mangled into illegibility by > gratuitiously inserted line breaks; it is perhaps even worse to have > multiple short lines pasted together by gratuitously deleted line > breaks. Each of those behaviours is broken. (When applied to text not > marked reflowable, that is. If the text is marked reflowable, then > either behaviour is fine - but such text needs to not only be marked > but be wrapped in accordance with the format=flowed spec.) > > I can, of course, rewrap text no matter how it's marked, just as I can > undo rot13, translate from EBCDIC, etc - but, as with those, it's an > additional step and thus impairs readability. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B ------------ I find the opposite; my client wraps just fine, line lengths expanding or contracting according to font and window size; that seems to be the way most folks do it with the infinite range of font, screen and window sizes these days (not to mention top-posting also being the norm 'out there' ;-) On the other hand, when lines are fixed length, with a smaller screen/window or after a few quotes each adding a chevron or two to each line I end up with a hard-to-read text with most lines split into two. m From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 21:40:44 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 22:40:44 -0400 Subject: Wrap or not (was C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD) References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mouse" To: Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2016 9:48 PM Subject: Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD ... >> But I'll be happy to comply to the wishes for preformatted text; just >> tell me how. > > I'd say, for running text, wrap somewhere before 80 characters per line > (preferably before about 78, since some programs lose a column or two > on display - personally, I wrap at column 72). I'm sure others will > differ in various details, but I suspect most will probably be > somewhere close to that. ... --------------------------- Presumably your non-client also uses a monospaced font, since with the proportional fonts in common use today a specific number of characters can vary widely in actual line width, which, I assume, is your issue. But like Chuck I suppose I can eschew the various advances in typography and formatting that I use elsewhere and try to remember to stick to the lowest common denominator here; I will continue to use the spelling checker though, because I find typos and misspellings as in your original post a bit distracting... ;D m From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 3 22:14:51 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 21:14:51 -0600 Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <5701CF42.6000404@telegraphics.com.au> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5701CF42.6000404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5701DC2B.2010305@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/3/2016 8:19 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > If we're doing 'the right way to email' AGAIN, at least have the > courtesy of changing THE SUBJECT LINE. What and have the subject line longer than the email? > --Toby Ben. BTW what do you do when your email server thinks your message is spam for a reply. A bit on the Internal details of the Z80... 4 bit alu. http : // www . devic . us / hacks / blog / From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 3 22:27:01 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 20:27:01 -0700 Subject: Wrap or not In-Reply-To: References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5701DF05.7070106@sydex.com> Okay, for the benefit of a very few, I've set my tbird configuration to mailnews_send_plaintext_flowed = false; Since I've got several accounts on this client and this is a *global* composition setting, I'm going to hope that it doesn't mess up composing on my other accounts. I've set the line width to 72 characters. If it does, I'm going back to flowed sent text and you can simply delete my messages when you see them. Of course, there's always the chance that this option won't work at all so If this makes you happy, fine. Otherwise, I'm not willing to do much else. --Chuck From dave at 661.org Sun Apr 3 23:09:41 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 04:09:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Xerox 8010 Star software on Ebay. In-Reply-To: <57016706.9060508@bitsavers.org> References: <57016706.9060508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2016, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/3/16 5:27 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> Just saw this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/331820201025 >> >> In case someone is interested. I was unable to quickly figure out if it >> already was archived on bitsavers. > > I don't appear to have it uploaded. > Maybe I can work something out with Frotz to get it. Frotz661 is me. Private email follows. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Apr 3 21:48:01 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 19:48:01 -0700 Subject: What do members do for substitute monochrome monitors ? Message-ID: I'll soon be powering up a HP 9000/310 (98561-66525) but do not have an a single monochrome monitor. Suggestions ? -pete From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Apr 4 04:36:17 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 10:36:17 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 03 Apr 2016 22:19:46 -0400" <5701CF42.6000404@telegraphics.com.au> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> Mouse made a perfectly reasonable request that we make a small effort to ensure our emails are formatted appropriately. The response was that people demanded their inherent right to continue to generate improperly formatted emails, complained about grudgingly having to having to make configuration changes to their email setup that might have consequences for other email they send and made other tangential complaints which as far as I can see are either completely baseless or are an attempt at humour that has gone over my head (not the one about the card deck though - I got that one, even though they were before my time). If anyone who complained had cared to check, they were all (as far as I can see) already generating appropriately formatted emails and have no need to jump to the defense of the way they do things or to make any changes to it. The email which prompted the mildly phrased request in response to it appears to have been generated by "Apple Mail (2.3124)". It looks to me that this MUA is generating "flowed" emails but failing to mark them as such in the headers it generates. (I agree that these emails are difficult to reply to and I would like to add that they are also very difficult to read when viewed in the web based list archive.) Could we not just have a little respect for each other and check our facts before conjuring up conflicts and difficulties which don't actually exist? Regards, Peter Coghlan From radiotest at juno.com Mon Apr 4 07:10:35 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 08:10:35 -0400 Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <5701DC2B.2010305@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5701CF42.6000404@telegraphics.com.au> <5701DC2B.2010305@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160404080047.04041ee0@juno.com> On 4/3/2016 8:19 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >If we're doing 'the right way to email' AGAIN, at least have the courtesy of changing THE SUBJECT LINE. Please do not change the subject line - people who do so do not understand how email reflector programs work on email servers. All messages using the changed subject line will continue to be archived under the original subject line. If you look at the list archives you will see that the thread "tumble under BSD" has been hijacked several times, by people who have changed the subject line instead of stating a new thread., and all of those messages are archived as part of the thread "tumble under BSD." The only correct way to change the subject on an email reflector is to start a new thread with an entirely new message. Dale H. Cook, Contract IT Administrator, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From macro at linux-mips.org Mon Apr 4 09:07:18 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:07:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: What do members do for substitute monochrome monitors ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote: > I'll soon be powering up a HP 9000/310 (98561-66525) but do not have an a > single monochrome monitor. > > Suggestions ? I've had success with a NEC MultiSync LCD2090UXi monitor, which can be configured on an input-by-input basis (at least for its analogue lines) to render image in shades of grey, either by weighing RGB inputs in the usual manner or solely from the green line. I take it both separate sync and composite signalling are supported although I have only used it with the latter (EIA-343A i.e. 1V p-p analogue). The LCD2190UXi does the same I'm told, although I haven't used it myself. So if your system uses analogue signalling, then one of these might be worth trying. I can't help if your system uses TTL output. HTH, Maciej From macro at linux-mips.org Mon Apr 4 09:07:18 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:07:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: What do members do for substitute monochrome monitors ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote: > I'll soon be powering up a HP 9000/310 (98561-66525) but do not have an a > single monochrome monitor. > > Suggestions ? I've had success with a NEC MultiSync LCD2090UXi monitor, which can be configured on an input-by-input basis (at least for its analogue lines) to render image in shades of grey, either by weighing RGB inputs in the usual manner or solely from the green line. I take it both separate sync and composite signalling are supported although I have only used it with the latter (EIA-343A i.e. 1V p-p analogue). The LCD2190UXi does the same I'm told, although I haven't used it myself. So if your system uses analogue signalling, then one of these might be worth trying. I can't help if your system uses TTL output. HTH, Maciej From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 09:31:20 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 10:31:20 -0400 Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> > Could we not just have a little respect for each other and check our > facts before conjuring up conflicts and difficulties which don't > actually exist? Yes, Peter, that would indeed be nice, but the only one I see "conjuring up conflicts" is you... No one "demanded their inherent right to continue to generate improperly formatted emails". As you yourself note, although it's an inconvenience both Chuck and I do indeed usually respect the wishes of a small minority and use short lines. I don't think that asking why flowed text is a problem for some people and/or expressing a different perspective is necessarily "complaining"; saying that the issues mentioned "don't actually exist" or calling them "completely baseless" doesn't seem to show much respect for the folks expressing those perspectives. Flowed text and top-posting have become the norm in mainstream email with its quick back-and-forth nature and the myriad of font and screen sizes out there. I don't think it's inappropriate to periodically explore whether perhaps we're ready to move with the times here (as is the case on most other lists I'm on), especially when Mouse and Liam bring them up as they do quite regularly. Yes, let's indeed respect each other and our various different opinions and perspectives, and maybe even explore them with an open mind without denigrating them and the folks expressing them. 'Nuff said. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Coghlan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 5:36 AM Subject: Re: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD > Mouse made a perfectly reasonable request that we make a small effort > to ensure our emails are formatted appropriately. > > The response was that people demanded their inherent right to > continue to generate improperly formatted emails, complained about > grudgingly having to having to make configuration changes to their > email setup that might have consequences for other email they send > and made other tangential complaints which as far as I can see are > either completely baseless or are an attempt at humour that has gone > over my head (not the one about the card deck though - I got that > one, even though they were before my time). > > If anyone who complained had cared to check, they were all (as far as > I can see) already generating appropriately formatted emails and have > no need to jump to the defense of the way they do things or to make > any changes to it. > > The email which prompted the mildly phrased request in response to it > appears to have been generated by "Apple Mail (2.3124)". It looks to > me that this MUA is generating "flowed" emails but failing to mark > them as such in the headers it generates. (I agree that these emails > are difficult to reply to and I would like to add that they are also > very difficult to read when viewed in the web based list archive.) > > Could we not just have a little respect for each other and check our > facts before conjuring up conflicts and difficulties which don't > actually exist? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 4 09:41:28 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 14:41:28 +0000 Subject: Wrap or not In-Reply-To: <5701DF05.7070106@sydex.com> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> ,<5701DF05.7070106@sydex.com> Message-ID: For many web operations, I keep my browser wide across my screen for wide content. Wide wrap makes it hard to read when there is a lot of text. I type returns as I feel comfortable and do not like reading text with arbitrary wrap. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis Sent: Sunday, April 3, 2016 8:27 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Wrap or not Okay, for the benefit of a very few, I've set my tbird configuration to mailnews_send_plaintext_flowed = false; Since I've got several accounts on this client and this is a *global* composition setting, I'm going to hope that it doesn't mess up composing on my other accounts. I've set the line width to 72 characters. If it does, I'm going back to flowed sent text and you can simply delete my messages when you see them. Of course, there's always the chance that this option won't work at all so If this makes you happy, fine. Otherwise, I'm not willing to do much else. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 4 09:48:39 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 10:48:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> Message-ID: <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Flowed text and top-posting have become the norm in mainstream email So have a lot of other horrible things, such as spam. Popularity, especially mainstream popularity, is no measure of goodness, or we should all immediately switch to Windows on peecees. I have no problem with flowed text - when done according to the spec, a spec which exists for good reason. As for top-posting, I've already written about why I consider most instances of it arrogant rudeness (see my blah post at http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/2012-09-26-1.html) and have seen no reason to change that opinion. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 11:30:24 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 12:30:24 -0400 Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mouse" To: Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 10:48 AM Subject: Re: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD >> Flowed text and top-posting have become the norm in mainstream email > > So have a lot of other horrible things, such as spam. Popularity, > especially mainstream popularity, is no measure of goodness, or we > should all immediately switch to Windows on peecees. > > I have no problem with flowed text - when done according to the spec, a > spec which exists for good reason. As for top-posting, I've already > written about why I consider most instances of it arrogant rudeness > (see my blah post at > http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/2012-09-26-1.html) and have > seen no reason to change that opinion. ------ ... nor would I ever expect you to ;D IMO the reason that flowed text and top posting have become the norm is that many people (myself included) find them more efficient and clearer, both reading and writing; obviously you and some others find the opposite and I try to respect that in my posts to this list (although I don't feel that my perspective gets much respect). They are personal preferences, and your spam reference is just one of the straw men that seem to invariably infest these discussions. Mainstream popularity is not just the much-maligned Windows on PCs, but also iOS and Android on smart phones and tablets, and the web-based email that you also disparage is often the only option; if you don't want to communicate with anyone using Gmail that is certainly your choice to make. As I said, although I don't share it I do respect your perspective which is presumably largely based on your particular choice of hard- and software; what I object to is your judgment that top-posting is "arrogant rudeness." It may not be the norm on this particular list, but if you were to periodically ask that everyone follow your 'standards' on any other list where top-posting, in-line posting, bottom-posting, flowed text and hard-wrapped text are all equally valid and accepted and don't elicit periodic chastisement, then that probably _would_ be considered to be "arrogant rudeness"... Potaytoes, potahtoes... m From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 4 11:44:26 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 17:44:26 +0100 Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <079901d18e91$3ffe7d60$bffb7820$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: 04 April 2016 15:49 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was > Re: tumble under BSD > > > Flowed text and top-posting have become the norm in mainstream email > > So have a lot of other horrible things, such as spam. Popularity, especially > mainstream popularity, is no measure of goodness, or we should all > immediately switch to Windows on peecees. > > I have no problem with flowed text - when done according to the spec, a > spec which exists for good reason. As for top-posting, I've already written > about why I consider most instances of it arrogant rudeness (see my blah > post at > http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/2012-09-26-1.html) and have > seen no reason to change that opinion. I really do think that the endian-ness of posting is a matter of personal preference. I happen to prefer top posting, but on this list I make a special effort to avoid it, because I know it upsets a lot of people, and it seems to be the accepted convention for this list. I could consider that people's disregard for my preference for top posting also to be rude (but I don't, of course). Please can we just agree that people have different preferences and never mention this subject again? The convention here is bottom posting. So be it. Regards Rob From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Apr 4 11:44:52 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 10:44:52 -0600 Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > > Mainstream popularity is not just the much-maligned Windows on PCs, > but also iOS and Android on smart phones and tablets, and the web-based > email... I for one am glad to see the PC finally get its comeuppance from iOS, Android and the Web. I'm still mad that it won the 'caps lock vs control key' location war. The one true place for the control key is immediately to the left of the 'a' key, not diagonally down from 'z'. Warner From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 11:55:43 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 12:55:43 -0400 Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <079901d18e91$3ffe7d60$bffb7820$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <345F097BF8CB433AA66847B794ACE5A5@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Jarratt" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 12:44 PM > I really do think that the endian-ness of posting is a matter of personal > preference. I happen to prefer top posting, but on this list I make a > special effort to avoid it, because I know it upsets a lot of people, and it > seems to be the accepted convention for this list. I could consider that > people's disregard for my preference for top posting also to be rude (but I > don't, of course). > > Please can we just agree that people have different preferences and never > mention this subject again? The convention here is bottom posting. So be it. > > Regards > > Rob > ----- +1 m From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 4 13:07:50 2016 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 14:07:50 -0400 Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> Message-ID: <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> On 04/04/2016 12:30 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mouse" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 10:48 AM > Subject: Re: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD > > >>> Flowed text and top-posting have become the norm in mainstream email >> >> So have a lot of other horrible things, such as spam. Popularity, >> especially mainstream popularity, is no measure of goodness, or we >> should all immediately switch to Windows on peecees. >> >> I have no problem with flowed text - when done according to the spec, a >> spec which exists for good reason. As for top-posting, I've already >> written about why I consider most instances of it arrogant rudeness >> (see my blah post at >> http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/2012-09-26-1.html) and have >> seen no reason to change that opinion. > > ------ > ... nor would I ever expect you to ;D > > IMO the reason that flowed text and top posting have become the norm > is that many people (myself included) find them more efficient and clearer, > both reading and writing; How so? Who reads an email message from the bottom up? > obviously you and some others find the opposite > and I try to respect that in my posts to this list (although I don't feel that > my perspective gets much respect). They are personal preferences, and > your spam reference is just one of the straw men that seem to invariably > infest these discussions. > > Mainstream popularity is not just the much-maligned Windows on PCs, > but also iOS and Android on smart phones and tablets, and the web-based > email that you also disparage is often the only option; if you don't want to > communicate with anyone using Gmail that is certainly your choice to make. > > As I said, although I don't share it I do respect your perspective which is > presumably largely based on your particular choice of hard- and software; > what I object to is your judgment that top-posting is "arrogant rudeness." It is arrogant rudeness when it is done in a place where everyone expects inline or bottom posting. When someone is repeatedly & politely asked to play along... > It may not be the norm on this particular list, but if you were to periodically > ask that everyone follow your 'standards' on any other list where top-posting, > in-line posting, bottom-posting, flowed text and hard-wrapped text are all > equally valid and accepted and don't elicit periodic chastisement, then that > probably _would_ be considered to be "arrogant rudeness"... > > Potaytoes, potahtoes... > > m > > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Apr 4 13:13:00 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 11:13:00 -0700 Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> > On Apr 4, 2016, at 11:07 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> >> ------ >> ... nor would I ever expect you to ;D >> >> IMO the reason that flowed text and top posting have become the norm >> is that many people (myself included) find them more efficient and clearer, >> both reading and writing; > > How so? Who reads an email message from the bottom up? > Because I?ve already read all of the other messages in the thread and it?s a pain when folks bottom post and include the complete text of all of the previous emails. I have gotten to the point on this list, that if I can?t see any new text on the first page, I skip the email. I?ve seen cases where there are 100?s of lines of old email text and only one new line at the very bottom. TTFN - Guy From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 13:34:58 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 14:34:58 -0400 Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <345F097BF8CB433AA66847B794ACE5A5@310e2> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <079901d18e91$3ffe7d60$bffb7820$@ntlworld.com> <345F097BF8CB433AA66847B794ACE5A5@310e2> Message-ID: The thing is, it's just too hard to follow a thread unless everyone posts in the same direction. If the thread, for whatever reason, flows by top post, then I follow that pattern, if it's bottom then I go that way...*this* message board has been around for a while, and the precedent is to bottom post. It's becoming hard to do any efficient research of past threads because of the breakdown in thread flow. Of all the devices I use I have never had much difficulty deciphering and replying per the flow, top/bottom/middle. There is always a way to reply with the flow and it's worth the effort I think. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From supervinx at libero.it Mon Apr 4 13:44:26 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 20:44:26 +0200 Subject: R: RE: RSX-11M trouble In-Reply-To: <1459704780.2349.18.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <1459704780.2349.18.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: <1459795466.2891.10.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Il giorno dom, 03/04/2016 alle 19.33 +0200, supervinx ha scritto: > Il giorno dom, 03/04/2016 alle 14.59 +0200, supervinx ha scritto: > > Hmmm.... RSX-11Mplus 4.2 aren't recognized as TSK images by "normal" 4.2 > Well... the files have been correctly transferred... i did a DMP on both > sides > so definitely I need a 4.2 non plus. I SYSGENed the 4.8 image on simh, and transferred ICP.TSK, just to do another try... The newly inserted task, showed the same parameters, using TAL ...AT., but issuing a @command causes the same big crash, dropping me on the initial ODT monitor. I did another test, with DMP. Only three blocks of the original ICP.TSK are unreadable: o73, o107, and o177 (all numbers are in octal), with the usuale I/O error -101, and no mention in ELI DU0:/SH I'm angry: the damaged ICP.TSK is TCP.TSK;3 and I did a purge to make room on the disk the first day I got it. Can't remember if another version was present... I've a couple of questions: 1)VFY gives me two error I can't clearly understand. 000541,000226 owner [1,54] file is marked for delete 000647,000000 I/O error reading file header -101 How can I associate xxxxxx,yyyyyy to a file name? I tried PIP /FI:xxxxxx:yyyyyy/LI with no luck 2) the .tpc images found in the net, if converted to .tap, are suitable for use in TU85em? Having no tape unit, I could try to install everything from scratch using a tape emulator. But the best would be to have 4.2 (*not* plus) tape images or someone with a running installation so kind to give me the four damaged files. VFY seems not to be able to repair the FS... Thanks From macro at linux-mips.org Mon Apr 4 15:00:35 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 21:00:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Apr 2016, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > How so? Who reads an email message from the bottom up? > > > Because I?ve already read all of the other messages in the thread and it?s > a pain when folks bottom post and include the complete text of all of the > previous emails. I think bottom-posting without trimming is actually more evil than top-posting (which I personally find a bit of nuisance, but acceptable, especially in a non-technical discussion). Though to be honest I think if you're inclined to top-post (i.e. you don't want to address parts of a message being replied to individually), then you're better off not quoting it at all in the first place. It's being addressed as a whole anyway, or you need to phrase your reply such that the recipient knows which point is being discussed, so whoever needs to remind themselves what this all was about can reach for the original message. FWIW I think the worst of all evils is actually middle-posting, where the reply to an individual original point is placed somewhere in the middle of the whole quoted tens-to-hundreds-line original message. I wonder where people come with the idea of formatting their correspondence like this from, it must be taking some effort, hmm... Maciej From radiotest at juno.com Mon Apr 4 15:06:06 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 16:06:06 -0400 Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160404160442.03f28fc0@juno.com> At 04:00 PM 4/4/2016, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: >I think bottom-posting without trimming is actually more evil than top-posting ... I think that any posting without trimming is a sign of a lazy and inconsiderate poster. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 4 15:21:51 2016 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 16:21:51 -0400 Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> On 04/04/2016 02:13 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> On Apr 4, 2016, at 11:07 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> >>> >>> ------ >>> ... nor would I ever expect you to ;D >>> >>> IMO the reason that flowed text and top posting have become the norm >>> is that many people (myself included) find them more efficient and clearer, >>> both reading and writing; >> >> How so? Who reads an email message from the bottom up? >> > Because I?ve already read all of the other messages in the thread and it?s > a pain when folks bottom post and include the complete text of all of the > previous emails. Well, yes, that's laziness there. All should be trimmed, except the bare minimum needed to understand context; when in a public forum that is viewable after the fact. > I have gotten to the point on this list, that if I can?t see any new text on the > first page, I skip the email. I?ve seen cases where there are 100?s of lines > of old email text and only one new line at the very bottom. > > TTFN - Guy > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From sales at elecplus.com Mon Apr 4 15:27:24 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:27:24 -0500 Subject: The Right Way to Email In-Reply-To: <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <01ec01d18eb0$666a3600$333ea200$@com> Is it possible to find a better topic of conversation? This is getting kind of old... --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 15:55:18 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 16:55:18 -0400 Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Woyciesjes" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 2:07 PM Subject: Re: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD > ...Who reads an email message from the bottom up? I don't; I read the (new) message from the top down and on the extremely rare occasion that I need to read what it's referring to I either scroll down or click on "show quoted text," depending on what I'm using at the time. Can't say I've ever had a big problem following a thread through the archive either. > It is arrogant rudeness when it is done in a place where everyone > expects inline or bottom posting. Not "everyone"... What borders on arrogant rudeness IMO is the tone of some of the replies to people who, while actually making the effort to follow 'the rules', merely suggest that maybe there's room for more than one way of doing things and try to explain the issues they're having, only to be met with e.g. "totally baseless" and "non-existent"... FWIW I just looked through the other vintage computer lists I'm on, presumably also populated at least in part by computer-savvy folks or professionals, and they all freely use and accept top-posting and flowed text. I continue to be surprised by how little tolerance there is for different ways of doing things in what is presumably an intelligent, progressive and innovative community, whether it be operating systems, hardware, languages or procedures; just try saying something positive about Microsoft, programming in BASIC or the "peecee"... m From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 4 16:10:20 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 16:10:20 -0500 Subject: The Right Way to Email - was Re: C & undefined behaviour - was Re: tumble under BSD In-Reply-To: References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <000c01d18eb6$65840d00$308c2700$@classiccmp.org> Emergency Moderation Mode On, topic closed. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 5 04:07:16 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 10:07:16 +0100 Subject: A computer collection in Italy In-Reply-To: <01ec01d18eb0$666a3600$333ea200$@com> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> <01ec01d18eb0$666a3600$333ea200$@com> Message-ID: <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> I came across this: http://www.lastampa.it/2016/03/23/edizioni/biella/alberto-lingegnere-che-salva-le-vecchie-glorie-dei-computer-gV1q0KqnJI1hEGCzDrqiJJ/pagina.html which lead me on to http://www.lastampa.it/2015/08/25/edizioni/biella/dai-pc-di-jurassic-park-ai-primi-computer-del-cnr-nsFSDGxVnfcZv7B2oqxm7M/pagina.html Alberto Rubinelli has a warehouse full of machines (8134 that have been catalogued and maybe 4000 more that are yet to be catalogued). The article mentions a VAX-11/780 and and an "IBM 390", but no pictures of either. There's a Laptop Grid Computer 1520 but it's not quite clear whether it is one that flew on the shuttle or just the same type as one that did. His aim is to have them all running and to open a museum. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 5 07:26:14 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 13:26:14 +0100 Subject: A computer collection in Italy In-Reply-To: <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> <01ec01d18eb0$666a3600$333ea200$@com> <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Darn! I was in the area last week, well, the East side of Novara anyway. I have a vague recollection that I have been in touch with him a few years ago. Will check when I get home tonight Rob Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Antonio Carlini Sent: 05 April 2016 11:51 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: A computer collection in Italy I came across this: http://www.lastampa.it/2016/03/23/edizioni/biella/alberto-lingegnere-che-salva-le-vecchie-glorie-dei-computer-gV1q0KqnJI1hEGCzDrqiJJ/pagina.html which lead me on to http://www.lastampa.it/2015/08/25/edizioni/biella/dai-pc-di-jurassic-park-ai-primi-computer-del-cnr-nsFSDGxVnfcZv7B2oqxm7M/pagina.html Alberto Rubinelli has a warehouse full of machines (8134 that have been catalogued and maybe 4000 more that are yet to be catalogued). The article mentions a VAX-11/780 and and an "IBM 390", but no pictures of either. There's a Laptop Grid Computer 1520 but it's not quite clear whether it is one that flew on the shuttle or just the same type as one that did. His aim is to have them all running and to open a museum. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Apr 5 07:27:28 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 14:27:28 +0200 Subject: A computer collection in Italy In-Reply-To: <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> References: <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> <01ec01d18eb0$666a3600$333ea200$@com> <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20160405122728.GA1569@Update.UU.SE> Hi Looks like this is his homepage: http://www.retrocomputing.net/ Looks like he has both an 11/780 (though it looks to be in pieces) and a 390. Impressive collection. /P On Tue, Apr 05, 2016 at 10:07:16AM +0100, Antonio Carlini wrote: > I came across this: > > http://www.lastampa.it/2016/03/23/edizioni/biella/alberto-lingegnere-che-salva-le-vecchie-glorie-dei-computer-gV1q0KqnJI1hEGCzDrqiJJ/pagina.html > > which lead me on to > > http://www.lastampa.it/2015/08/25/edizioni/biella/dai-pc-di-jurassic-park-ai-primi-computer-del-cnr-nsFSDGxVnfcZv7B2oqxm7M/pagina.html > > Alberto Rubinelli has a warehouse full of machines (8134 that have been > catalogued and maybe 4000 more that are yet to be catalogued). The article > mentions a VAX-11/780 and and an "IBM 390", but no pictures of either. > There's a Laptop Grid Computer 1520 but it's not quite clear whether it is > one that flew on the shuttle or just the same type as one that did. > > His aim is to have them all running and to open a museum. > > Antonio > > -- > Antonio Carlini > arcarlini at iee.org > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Apr 5 09:31:28 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 16:31:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: A computer collection in Italy In-Reply-To: <20160405122728.GA1569@Update.UU.SE> References: <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> <01ec01d18eb0$666a3600$333ea200$@com> <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> <20160405122728.GA1569@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Apr 2016, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > http://www.retrocomputing.net/ > > Looks like he has both an 11/780 (though it looks to be in pieces) and a 390. > > Impressive collection. ... that get's much smaller if you omit all those entries for flat band cables, connectors, heat sinks, power supplies ... The only place with a similar approach is ISER, a catalog of any single atom they have in their collection ;-) Impressive list, but absolutely useless IMO (e.g. entries like "cable, length 1m, purpose unknown, color black") Christian From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 5 10:40:52 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 16:40:52 +0100 Subject: A computer collection in Italy In-Reply-To: <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> <01ec01d18eb0$666a3600$333ea200$@com> <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <081501d18f51$891ff170$9b5fd450$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio > Carlini > Sent: 05 April 2016 10:07 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: A computer collection in Italy > > I came across this: > > http://www.lastampa.it/2016/03/23/edizioni/biella/alberto-lingegnere-che- > salva-le-vecchie-glorie-dei-computer-gV1q0KqnJI1hEGCzDrqiJJ/pagina.html > > which lead me on to > > http://www.lastampa.it/2015/08/25/edizioni/biella/dai-pc-di-jurassic-park- > ai-primi-computer-del-cnr-nsFSDGxVnfcZv7B2oqxm7M/pagina.html > > Alberto Rubinelli has a warehouse full of machines (8134 that have been > catalogued and maybe 4000 more that are yet to be catalogued). The article > mentions a VAX-11/780 and and an "IBM 390", but no pictures of either. > There's a Laptop Grid Computer 1520 but it's not quite clear whether it is one > that flew on the shuttle or just the same type as one that did. > > His aim is to have them all running and to open a museum. > > Antonio > > -- > Antonio Carlini > arcarlini at iee.org Actually I now realise I *have* been in contact with him, 7 years ago. I asked if I could come and visit when next in the area (I visit the area quite often), but at the time he didn't seem very ready for visitors. I will try again at Christmas, as that will be my next visit. The newspaper article says all the machines work, but I find that really hard to believe. Probably journalistic hyperbole. Regards Rob From lists at loomcom.com Tue Apr 5 11:58:59 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 11:58:59 -0500 Subject: 3B2 C compiler and Assembler In-Reply-To: <20160403035422.GA23316@loomcom.com> References: <20160403035422.GA23316@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20160405165859.GA10398@loomcom.com> * On Sat, Apr 02, 2016 at 10:54:22PM -0500, Seth Morabito wrote: > Now that I have my 3B2/300 up and running, I'd like to get developer > tools installed. Unfortunately, I can't find any of them on the web > anywhere. Folks, Thanks to several kind offers off-list, I now have all the developer tools in hand. I'm building up a catalog and archive of 3B2 software and hope to make it available online in the near future, so others in need can find it more easily. -Seth From lists at loomcom.com Tue Apr 5 12:05:29 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 12:05:29 -0500 Subject: AT&T 4425 (Teletype 56D) repair Message-ID: <20160405170529.GB10398@loomcom.com> About a month ago I was given a very nice AT&T 4425 terminal, which was AT&T's OEM of the Teletype 56D. Alas, the terminal suddenly died on me last week and I'm going to have to dive in and figure out why. It appears to be something going wrong with the digital board, not the analog, since sometimes I can get strange characters to show up on the screen (but not always). I did my normal searches of BitSavers and Google, but I haven't found any schematics for the 4425. I don't suppose anybody has them? At least it looks easy to work on. Kudos to whoever designed the innards, it comes apart very easily and cleanly. -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 5 12:29:47 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 18:29:47 +0100 Subject: A computer collection in Italy In-Reply-To: References: <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> <01ec01d18eb0$666a3600$333ea200$@com> <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> <20160405122728.GA1569@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5703F60B.9030903@ntlworld.com> On 05/04/16 15:31, Christian Corti wrote: > > ... that get's much smaller if you omit all those entries for flat > band cables, connectors, heat sinks, power supplies ... The only place > with a similar approach is ISER, a catalog of any single atom they > have in their collection ;-) Impressive list, but absolutely useless > IMO (e.g. entries like "cable, length 1m, purpose unknown, color black") > > Christian > I've never been there so I don't know for sure, but if he just had 10,000 cables he wouldn't really need to have bought a 4000sqm building :-) His online catalogue is obviously incomplete: his prized VAX-11/780 doesn't seem to be there for a start (at least not under the most obvious entries I looked at). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Apr 5 12:38:18 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:38:18 +0200 Subject: A computer collection in NL In-Reply-To: <081501d18f51$891ff170$9b5fd450$@ntlworld.com> References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> <01ec01d18eb0$666a3600$333ea200$@com> <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> <081501d18f51$891ff170$9b5fd450$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I realize that I have not done much (any) "advertisement" ... I have my collection in a "room" of some 2250 sq. feet (200 m2). Almost all PDP-11 models (UNIBUS and QBUS), a few VAX4000's, VLC4000, and a VAX-11/750. Also several DEC peripherals, disk, tape, printer, and terminals. Furthere, there is a DG NOVA3, NOVA4 and an HP 21MX. All you see on www.pdp-11.nl can be seen in "real", and there is probably a bit more ... I am *not* saying that everything is working, au contraire! After many years of collecting I am now trying to get everything working. A very slow process I've learned! If you are visiting The Netherlands you are welcome to my "Home of Famous Iron". I live in the southern part, near Philips headquarters city Eindhoven. All I ask, if possible, is that I get a business card from you ;-) greetz, - Henk From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Apr 5 12:44:18 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 18:44:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Front Panels - PDP-8/e Type A Availablity Message-ID: <12613464.57608.1459878258478.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> Hi Guys I now have a limited quantity of PDP-8/e Type A Front Panels ready to ship. Type A is the early kind where the selector switch runs from the 12 o'clock position anti clockwise to the six o'clock position. If you have a paid order for a Type A then it will ship to-morrow. The others will go in the order that I receive payments via PayPal When they are all gone you go to the top of the list for the next batch. PayPal Payment as follows $150 per panel plus shipping at $20 per panel, You can order more than one but to be fair everybody who orders in time gets one and the rest to follow. Don't worry there will be a new batch of Type A next week. It gets better there will be a Type B release to-morrow. Same rules as above. Same Pricing Even better PDP-8/f and PDP-8/m artwork is complete and panels will be made starting to-morrow. Release 1-2 weeks Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Apr 5 13:51:03 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 11:51:03 -0700 Subject: A computer collection in Italy In-Reply-To: <5703F60B.9030903@ntlworld.com> References: <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> <01ec01d18eb0$666a3600$333ea200$@com> <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> <20160405122728.GA1569@Update.UU.SE> <5703F60B.9030903@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <14ECAD36-EF7D-436D-86A2-6D784FC56BB3@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Apr-05, at 10:29 AM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 05/04/16 15:31, Christian Corti wrote: >> >> ... that get's much smaller if you omit all those entries for flat band cables, connectors, heat sinks, power supplies ... The only place with a similar approach is ISER, a catalog of any single atom they have in their collection ;-) Impressive list, but absolutely useless IMO (e.g. entries like "cable, length 1m, purpose unknown, color black") >> > > I've never been there so I don't know for sure, but if he just had 10,000 cables he wouldn't really need to have bought a 4000sqm building :-) > > His online catalogue is obviously incomplete: his prized VAX-11/780 doesn't seem to be there for a start (at least not under the most obvious entries I looked at). http://www.retrocomputing.net/ --> Catalogo --> D --> Digital --> Mini computer VAX 11/780 --> Fotografie Dismantled to frame and modules. Didn't see the skins in the pics. Hope he has them. (His server or network seems to be stumbling at this time, access is painful, was OK earlier). From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 13:51:05 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 13:51:05 -0500 Subject: A computer collection in NL In-Reply-To: References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> <01ec01d18eb0$666a3600$333ea200$@com> <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> <081501d18f51$891ff170$9b5fd450$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Stumbled upon ur site many times when looking g stuff up ;) On Apr 5, 2016 12:59 PM, "Henk Gooijen" wrote: > I realize that I have not done much (any) "advertisement" ... > > I have my collection in a "room" of some 2250 sq. feet (200 m2). > Almost all PDP-11 models (UNIBUS and QBUS), a few VAX4000's, VLC4000, > and a VAX-11/750. Also several DEC peripherals, disk, tape, printer, > and terminals. Furthere, there is a DG NOVA3, NOVA4 and an HP 21MX. > All you see on www.pdp-11.nl can be seen in "real", and there is > probably a bit more ... > I am *not* saying that everything is working, au contraire! After many > years of collecting I am now trying to get everything working. A very > slow process I've learned! > > If you are visiting The Netherlands you are welcome to my "Home of > Famous Iron". I live in the southern part, near Philips headquarters > city Eindhoven. > All I ask, if possible, is that I get a business card from you ;-) > > greetz, > - Henk > From mark at matlockfamily.com Tue Apr 5 20:50:52 2016 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 20:50:52 -0500 Subject: RSX-11M trouble Message-ID: <61115D5C-245D-4AEA-8BB2-6B7DFE959AD0@MatlockFamily.com> > Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 20:44:26 +0200 > From: supervinx > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: R: RE: RSX-11M trouble > Message-ID: <1459795466.2891.10.camel at PIV-Ubuntu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Il giorno dom, 03/04/2016 alle 19.33 +0200, supervinx ha scritto: >> Il giorno dom, 03/04/2016 alle 14.59 +0200, supervinx ha scritto: >>> Hmmm.... RSX-11Mplus 4.2 aren't recognized as TSK images by "normal" 4.2 >> Well... the files have been correctly transferred... i did a DMP on both >> sides >> so definitely I need a 4.2 non plus. > I SYSGENed the 4.8 image on simh, and transferred ICP.TSK, just to do > another try... > > The newly inserted task, showed the same parameters, using TAL ...AT., > but issuing a @command causes the same big crash, dropping me on the > initial ODT monitor. > > I did another test, with DMP. > Only three blocks of the original ICP.TSK are unreadable: > o73, o107, and o177 (all numbers are in octal), with the usuale I/O > error -101, and no mention in ELI DU0:/SH > > I'm angry: the damaged ICP.TSK is TCP.TSK;3 and I did a purge to make > room on the disk the first day I got it. Can't remember if another > version was present... > > I've a couple of questions: > 1)VFY gives me two error I can't clearly understand. > 000541,000226 owner [1,54] > file is marked for delete > > 000647,000000 > I/O error reading file header -101 > > How can I associate xxxxxx,yyyyyy to a file name? > I tried PIP /FI:xxxxxx:yyyyyy/LI with no luck This is a good question but I do not know the answer. > > 2) the .tpc images found in the net, if converted to .tap, are suitable > for use in TU85em? Having no tape unit, I could try to install > everything from scratch using a tape emulator. I would use Simh to boot a BRUSYS tape then copy the tapes to make a bootable disk. > > But the best would be to have 4.2 (*not* plus) tape images or someone > with a running installation so kind to give me the four damaged files. > > VFY seems not to be able to repair the FS... > > Thanks The closest RSX11M (not Plus) distribution I can find is an RL01 distribution of RSX11M V4.1 Since it is disk and not tape it can be directly booted with Simh and it does have a ICP.TSK that should be pretty compatible with V4.2 since it is from V4.1 Baseline. You can find this RSX11M V4.1 distribution at: ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/rsxdists/rsx11mplus_4_0_netkit_aq-ew97b-bc.zip It will unzip into 6 RL01 disk images and 3 update E disk images. Below I mapped the first two disks and found a copy of ICP.TSK on the 1 disk which is a Baseline image that should run on a range of different hardware. sim> sh rl RL RLV12, address=17774400-17774411, vector=160, 4 units RL0 2621KW, attached to rsx11m41_1of6_rsxm35.ax-d518e-bc, on line write enabled, RL01 RL1 2621KW, attached to rsx11m41_2of6_excprv.ax-d521e-bc, on line write enabled, RL01 RL2 2621KW, attached to rsx11m41_3of6_rlutil.ax-d522f-bc, on line write enabled, RL01 RL3 2621KW, attached to rsx11m41_4of6_mcrsrc.ax-h927f-bc, on line write enabled, RL01 sim> b rl0 RSX-11M V4.1 BL35 124.K MAPPED (BASELINE) >RED DL:=SY: >RED DL:=LB: >MOU DL:RSXM35 >@DL:[1,2]STARTUP >* PLEASE ENTER TIME AND DATE (HR:MN DD-MMM-YY) [S]: 20:36 5-APR-86 >TIM 20:36 5-APR-86 >* ENTER LINE WIDTH OF THIS TERMINAL [D D:132.]: >SET /BUF=TI:132. >ACS SY:/BLKS=512. >@ > >mou dl1:/ovr/pub/vi Volume Information Class: Files-11 Device: DL01 Volume label:EXCPRV Pack serial: 00000273341 Owner: [1,1] Protection: [RWCD,RWCD,RWCD,RWCD] Default: [RWED,RWED,RWED,R] Processor: F11ACP >ins $pip >pip [1,54]i*.tsk/li Directory DL0:[1,54] 22-APR-83 18:16 ICP.TSK;1 142. C 22-APR-83 17:48 INI.TSK;1 58. C 22-APR-83 17:48 INS.TSK;1 60. C 22-APR-83 17:48 Total of 260./260. blocks in 3. files from the RL01 image you should be able to PUTR read and then write to an RX50 as you have done before. Good Luck, Mark From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 21:07:02 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:07:02 -0700 Subject: RSX-11M trouble In-Reply-To: <61115D5C-245D-4AEA-8BB2-6B7DFE959AD0@MatlockFamily.com> References: <61115D5C-245D-4AEA-8BB2-6B7DFE959AD0@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 6:50 PM, Mark Matlock wrote: > > The closest RSX11M (not Plus) distribution I can find is an RL01 distribution of RSX11M V4.1 > Since it is disk and not tape it can be directly booted with Simh and it does have a ICP.TSK > that should be pretty compatible with V4.2 since it is from V4.1 Baseline. > > You can find this RSX11M V4.1 distribution at: > ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/rsxdists/rsx11mplus_4_0_netkit_aq-ew97b-bc.zip > Perhaps you did a cut and paste of the wrong link? Maybe you meant this one instead: ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/rsxdists/rsx11m41_and_update_e.zip From other at oryx.us Tue Apr 5 23:45:17 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 23:45:17 -0500 Subject: 3B2 C compiler and Assembler In-Reply-To: <20160405165859.GA10398@loomcom.com> References: <20160403035422.GA23316@loomcom.com> <20160405165859.GA10398@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <5704945D.5030600@oryx.us> Thank you again for all the updates, and all the work you have done on the 3B2 project. I can't wait to be able to work with it again sometime soon, Jerry On 04/ 5/16 11:58 AM, Seth Morabito wrote: > * On Sat, Apr 02, 2016 at 10:54:22PM -0500, Seth Morabito wrote: >> Now that I have my 3B2/300 up and running, I'd like to get developer >> tools installed. Unfortunately, I can't find any of them on the web >> anywhere. > > Folks, > > Thanks to several kind offers off-list, I now have all the developer > tools in hand. I'm building up a catalog and archive of 3B2 software > and hope to make it available online in the near future, so others in > need can find it more easily. > > -Seth > From spedraja at ono.com Wed Apr 6 01:46:36 2016 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 08:46:36 +0200 Subject: 3B2 C compiler and Assembler In-Reply-To: <5704945D.5030600@oryx.us> References: <20160403035422.GA23316@loomcom.com> <20160405165859.GA10398@loomcom.com> <5704945D.5030600@oryx.us> Message-ID: Hi. I am searching for a long time a similar set of 5.25 diskettes for my 3B1. If someone could provide me a copy it would be great. Kind Regards Sergio 2016-04-06 6:45 GMT+02:00 Jerry Kemp : > Thank you again for all the updates, and all the work you have done on the > 3B2 project. > > I can't wait to be able to work with it again sometime soon, > > Jerry > > > > On 04/ 5/16 11:58 AM, Seth Morabito wrote: > >> * On Sat, Apr 02, 2016 at 10:54:22PM -0500, Seth Morabito < >> lists at loomcom.com> wrote: >> >>> Now that I have my 3B2/300 up and running, I'd like to get developer >>> tools installed. Unfortunately, I can't find any of them on the web >>> anywhere. >>> >> >> Folks, >> >> Thanks to several kind offers off-list, I now have all the developer >> tools in hand. I'm building up a catalog and archive of 3B2 software >> and hope to make it available online in the near future, so others in >> need can find it more easily. >> >> -Seth >> >> From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Apr 6 05:31:49 2016 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 12:31:49 +0200 Subject: A computer collection in Italy In-Reply-To: References: <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> <01ec01d18eb0$666a3600$333ea200$@com> <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> <20160405122728.GA1569@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5704E595.4090707@update.uu.se> On 04/05/2016 04:31 PM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 5 Apr 2016, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> http://www.retrocomputing.net/ >> >> Looks like he has both an 11/780 (though it looks to be in pieces) >> and a 390. >> >> Impressive collection. > > ... that get's much smaller if you omit all those entries for flat > band cables, connectors, heat sinks, power supplies ... The only place > with a similar approach is ISER, a catalog of any single atom they > have in their collection ;-) Impressive list, but absolutely useless > IMO (e.g. entries like "cable, length 1m, purpose unknown, color black") > > Christian Size doesn't matter. I'm more impressed by the fact that he has an inventory, _with_ photos. I'm also impressed by the diversity and some rare items. Perhaps I'm just young and impressionable :-) /P From mark at matlockfamily.com Wed Apr 6 06:03:36 2016 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 06:03:36 -0500 Subject: RSX-11M trouble Message-ID: >> The closest RSX11M (not Plus) distribution I can find is an RL01 distribution of RSX11M V4.1 >> Since it is disk and not tape it can be directly booted with Simh and it does have a ICP.TSK >> that should be pretty compatible with V4.2 since it is from V4.1 Baseline. >> You can find this RSX11M V4.1 distribution at: >> >> ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/rsxdists/rsx11mplus_4_0_netkit_aq-ew97b-bc.zip >> > > Perhaps you did a cut and paste of the wrong link? > > Maybe you meant this one instead: > > ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/rsxdists/rsx11m41_and_update_e.zip Glen, Yes, I did paste an incorrect link. Thank you for catching my mistake. Yours above is the correct one. Mark From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 6 08:08:55 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 09:08:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KY11-LB prints, and versions Message-ID: <20160406130855.B0F9518C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I'm in the process of repairing a couple of M7859 KY11-LB -11/04-34 Programmer's Console boards, and the existing FM Print Set was kind of hard to read in some areas, so I looked online for another set, and although I didn't find one, I noticed several other people with the same issue - asking for a better set. My brain did eventually turn on, and I remembered DEC's habit of putting prints for included devices in with print sets for computers, and with that in mind, I managed to locate another set in the -11/34A print set; that one is a lot clearer. To my surprise, they showed a slightly different board from the one in the existing FMPS available online: in the later version, the four 8093 quad tri-state buffers between the UNIBUS data lines, and the internal bus, are replaced by 74173's. I'm not sure quite what motivated this change - no documentation that I know of refers to the existence of two different versions. The PCB is slightly different, but the ROMs are apparently all the same, so from the point of view of the i8008, the two versions must look the same. (And given where the change is, it can't make any difference to the interface between the card and the front panel, CPU boards, etc, so either version should work anywhere.) Anyway, the version in the -11/34A prints didn't include the actual front console, plus to which the prints there had been heavily marked up by someone at some point. So I have produced a new set of prints: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/MP00015_KY11-LB_Jan78.pdf which includes the front console pages from the earlier set, and a cleaned up version of the pages from the -11/34A set for the M7859; hope this is useful to someone! Noel From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Apr 6 08:56:58 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 06:56:58 -0700 Subject: KY11-LB prints, and versions In-Reply-To: <20160406130855.B0F9518C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160406130855.B0F9518C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20160406065658.784d6d3e@asrock.bcwi.net> On Wed, 6 Apr 2016 09:08:55 -0400 (EDT) jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote: --snip-- > Anyway, the version in the -11/34A prints didn't include the actual > front console, plus to which the prints there had been heavily marked > up by someone at some point. So I have produced a new set of prints: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/MP00015_KY11-LB_Jan78.pdf > > which includes the front console pages from the earlier set, and a > cleaned up version of the pages from the -11/34A set for the M7859; > hope this is useful to someone! Thanks! Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 09:38:44 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 15:38:44 +0100 Subject: A computer collection in Italy In-Reply-To: <5704E595.4090707@update.uu.se> References: <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> <01ec01d18eb0$666a3600$333ea200$@com> <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> <20160405122728.GA1569@Update.UU.SE> <5704E595.4090707@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <01d501d19012$064bff70$12e3fe50$@gmail.com> I wish I had such an inventory of my collection.... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus > Sent: 06 April 2016 11:32 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: A computer collection in Italy > > On 04/05/2016 04:31 PM, Christian Corti wrote: > > On Tue, 5 Apr 2016, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> http://www.retrocomputing.net/ > >> > >> Looks like he has both an 11/780 (though it looks to be in pieces) > >> and a 390. > >> > >> Impressive collection. > > > > ... that get's much smaller if you omit all those entries for flat > > band cables, connectors, heat sinks, power supplies ... The only place > > with a similar approach is ISER, a catalog of any single atom they > > have in their collection ;-) Impressive list, but absolutely useless > > IMO (e.g. entries like "cable, length 1m, purpose unknown, color > > black") > > > > Christian > > Size doesn't matter. I'm more impressed by the fact that he has an inventory, > _with_ photos. I'm also impressed by the diversity and some rare items. > > Perhaps I'm just young and impressionable :-) > > /P From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 6 09:52:22 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 15:52:22 +0100 Subject: A computer collection in Italy In-Reply-To: <01d501d19012$064bff70$12e3fe50$@gmail.com> References: <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> <01ec01d18eb0$666a3600$333ea200$@com> <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> <20160405122728.GA1569@Update.UU.SE> <5704E595.4090707@update.uu.se> <01d501d19012$064bff70$12e3fe50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <570522A6.4050408@ntlworld.com> On 06/04/16 15:38, Dave Wade wrote: > I wish I had such an inventory of my collection.... I wish I had a 4000sqm building nearby :-) I'm much more likely to (eventually) build up an inventory of the stuff I do have (that's just time and effort ...). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 6 10:09:30 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 16:09:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Front Panels Latest Message-ID: <3554370.51181.1459955370528.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> Hi Guys PDP-8/e A panels now shipping PDP 8/e B panels ship on Friday PDP-8/ f and /m ship on 14th I have some extras of the above if you are quick. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From lists at loomcom.com Wed Apr 6 11:08:51 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 11:08:51 -0500 Subject: AT&T 4425 (Teletype 56D) repair In-Reply-To: <20160405170529.GB10398@loomcom.com> References: <20160405170529.GB10398@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20160406160851.GA19610@loomcom.com> One more quick question about this. Here's a close-up of the CPU and IO support chips on the terminal main board: http://i.imgur.com/6ZXwcLm.jpg The "SL0227 / 404780" part appears to be a Zilog Z80 CPU of some kind, but I've never seen those markings. The MOSTEK parts are Z80 SIO and Z80 CTC equivalents. Has anyone ever seen the SL0227 before? Any idea what kind of Z80 it is? It's not in the data book I have access to. -Seth From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Apr 6 11:35:47 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 09:35:47 -0700 Subject: MEM11A Status Message-ID: Hi, The board layout is complete and has passed all of the design rule checks from the board house. I?ll be ordering some boards for me to assemble and test next week. I have also received a quote for ?turnkey assembly? where I hand them the files and get back fully assembled boards. In order to get the price reasonable I have to have 25 *firm* orders for the boards. I?ll be charging $395/ea + shipping. If folks could let me know (private emails please) as to the quantity that they want (don?t send $?s yet) so I know I won?t be $1000?s in the hole on this before I order the boards. The timing is that I?ll probably place the order for the boards (assuming sufficient interest) in mid-May. I?ll let folks know when I have the minimum quantity. BTW, this is for the MEM11A 128KW SPC memory board (not to be confused with the UMF11). TTFN - Guy From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Apr 6 13:26:34 2016 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 18:26:34 +0000 Subject: Document treasure trove Message-ID: <85A55767-1907-444D-8162-E6010F270E24@dell.com> While looking for DECnet documents, I noticed that there's a very large collection at http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/ . Probably not news to many, but in case some had not seen it... Among other things, there are two CD collections MDS-1997-10 and MDS-2000-01. The former contains a rather obscure document, the DECnet Phase IV Token Ring datalink spec. That also includes the Phase IV routing layer tweaks necessary to support token ring -- or other datalinks if you don't want to use the AA-00-04-00 prefix. paul From supervinx at libero.it Wed Apr 6 14:59:39 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 21:59:39 +0200 Subject: RSX-11M trouble In-Reply-To: <61115D5C-245D-4AEA-8BB2-6B7DFE959AD0@MatlockFamily.com> References: <61115D5C-245D-4AEA-8BB2-6B7DFE959AD0@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: <1459972779.3710.8.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Ah, sad and bad news... Transferred ICP.TSK as usual and checked it with DMP (between simh and the MicroPDP). Gave it a try, but got a system crash. I suspect that the Indirect Command Processor is tightly linked with the kernel... Another curious thing is this... Dumping the first block with DMP or a Linux/DOS tools gives different results. For example: DMP === B1 B2 B3 B4 B5 B6 B7 B8 B9 B10 B12 B13 B14 B15 B16 Linux/DOS ========= B16 B15 B14 B13 B12 B11 B10 B9 B8 B7 B6 B5 B4 B3 B2 B1 Byte sequence is reversed. It isn't a Big/Little Endian issue. The entire 16 bytes string is reversed. I could figure out what files are needed to reassemble it with MAC, but I think I'd need the 4.2 distribution... From bqt at softjar.se Wed Apr 6 15:05:20 2016 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 22:05:20 +0200 Subject: [HECnet] Document treasure trove In-Reply-To: <85A55767-1907-444D-8162-E6010F270E24@dell.com> References: <85A55767-1907-444D-8162-E6010F270E24@dell.com> Message-ID: <57056C00.4090600@softjar.se> On 2016-04-06 20:26, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: > While looking for DECnet documents, I noticed that there's a very large collection at http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/ . Probably not news to many, but in case some had not seen it... > > Among other things, there are two CD collections MDS-1997-10 and MDS-2000-01. The former contains a rather obscure document, the DECnet Phase IV Token Ring datalink spec. That also includes the Phase IV routing layer tweaks necessary to support token ring -- or other datalinks if you don't want to use the AA-00-04-00 prefix. Nice find. While we're at it, I just scanned the Oregon Pascal V2.1E manuals for RSX, and put them at http://Mim.Update.UU.SE/manuals/pascal I aim to slowly build up the documentation for all RSX stuff in a somewhat ordered fashion there. The fact that it is actually served by an RSX machine just makes it more fun. Johnny From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed Apr 6 15:15:52 2016 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 15:15:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? Message-ID: I had one of those Japanese Koan moments recently when someone asked me "Why do floppy disks stop working?" and I realised I... didn't actually know. I thought I'd throw it to the group and get some theories/proofs. Let's work on the assumption we're talking about 5.25" and 3.5" disks. Several guesses: - Repeated use slowly wears away the magnetic media layer on the mylar. - When left in an unprotected state, or a poor environment, damp, mold and dust can damage the surface, either degrading the magnetic layer or causing the gap to shrink enough that the drive head physically damages the disk? - Quantum fluctuations in the state of the universe, caused by millions of mostly non-interacting particles passing through a disk in any given minute, alter the magnetic spin of the ferric atoms causing gradual data loss over time (mostly tongue-in-cheek) - Given the lack of use of most floppy drives they themselves pick up 'gunk' and on first reading a diskette after a long time of disuse damage it. It _seems_ like when you put a 3.5" disk down for ten years and pick it back up, a disk that used to work fine no longer does. Of course, after ten years, it could be your own memory that's failed. Dare I ask, what's the consensus? - JP From isking at uw.edu Wed Apr 6 15:58:18 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 13:58:18 -0700 Subject: What do members do for substitute monochrome monitors ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 7:07 AM, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > On Sun, 3 Apr 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > > I'll soon be powering up a HP 9000/310 (98561-66525) but do not have an > a > > single monochrome monitor. > > > > Suggestions ? > > I've had success with a NEC MultiSync LCD2090UXi monitor, which can be > configured on an input-by-input basis (at least for its analogue lines) to > render image in shades of grey, either by weighing RGB inputs in the usual > manner or solely from the green line. I take it both separate sync and > composite signalling are supported although I have only used it with the > latter (EIA-343A i.e. 1V p-p analogue). The LCD2190UXi does the same I'm > told, although I haven't used it myself. > > So if your system uses analogue signalling, then one of these might be > worth trying. I can't help if your system uses TTL output. > > HTH, > > Maciej > I have a couple of boards/boxes I've purchased on ePay that do a good job of reducing my dependency on CRTs. My frame doubler was around $80, and another board that does a lot of format conversion (including various RGB combos) for about $25. Sometimes I keep the CRTs for historical reasons, but I dislike running them routinely because of the real estate they consume! Also, some are just getting a bit dim.... -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From isking at uw.edu Wed Apr 6 15:58:18 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 13:58:18 -0700 Subject: What do members do for substitute monochrome monitors ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 7:07 AM, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > On Sun, 3 Apr 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > > I'll soon be powering up a HP 9000/310 (98561-66525) but do not have an > a > > single monochrome monitor. > > > > Suggestions ? > > I've had success with a NEC MultiSync LCD2090UXi monitor, which can be > configured on an input-by-input basis (at least for its analogue lines) to > render image in shades of grey, either by weighing RGB inputs in the usual > manner or solely from the green line. I take it both separate sync and > composite signalling are supported although I have only used it with the > latter (EIA-343A i.e. 1V p-p analogue). The LCD2190UXi does the same I'm > told, although I haven't used it myself. > > So if your system uses analogue signalling, then one of these might be > worth trying. I can't help if your system uses TTL output. > > HTH, > > Maciej > I have a couple of boards/boxes I've purchased on ePay that do a good job of reducing my dependency on CRTs. My frame doubler was around $80, and another board that does a lot of format conversion (including various RGB combos) for about $25. Sometimes I keep the CRTs for historical reasons, but I dislike running them routinely because of the real estate they consume! Also, some are just getting a bit dim.... -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From rickb at bensene.com Wed Apr 6 16:11:06 2016 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 14:11:06 -0700 Subject: KY11-LB prints, and versions References: <20160406130855.B0F9518C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A15D@mail.bensene.com> Noel wrote: > > My brain did eventually turn on, and I remembered DEC's habit of putting > prints for included devices in with print sets for computers, and with that in > mind, I managed to locate another set in the -11/34A print set; that one is a > lot clearer. > > Anyway, the version in the -11/34A prints didn't include the actual front > console, plus to which the prints there had been heavily marked up by > someone at some point. So I have produced a new set of prints: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/MP00015_KY11-LB_Jan78.pdf > > which includes the front console pages from the earlier set, and a cleaned > up version of the pages from the -11/34A set for the M7859; hope this is > useful to someone! > Thank you very much -- this is indeed very useful. It appears that this printset matches the KY-11/M7859 on my 11/34A, and though it is working fine right now, it's great to have just in case somewhere down the road something goes astray. -Rick --- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 16:11:54 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 15:11:54 -0600 Subject: AT&T 4425 (Teletype 56D) repair In-Reply-To: <20160406160851.GA19610@loomcom.com> References: <20160405170529.GB10398@loomcom.com> <20160406160851.GA19610@loomcom.com> Message-ID: SL0227 is a house number, and isn't likely to mean anything to anyone. It might be a Z80, but it could just as easily be a mask-programmed Z8. From drb at msu.edu Wed Apr 6 16:13:09 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 17:13:09 -0400 Subject: RSX-11M trouble In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 06 Apr 2016 21:59:39 +0200.) <1459972779.3710.8.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <1459972779.3710.8.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <61115D5C-245D-4AEA-8BB2-6B7DFE959AD0@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: <20160406211309.D2E71A58620@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Another curious thing is this... > Dumping the first block with DMP or a Linux/DOS tools gives different > results. > For example: > DMP > === > B1 B2 B3 B4 B5 B6 B7 B8 B9 B10 B12 B13 B14 B15 B16 > Linux/DOS > ========= > B16 B15 B14 B13 B12 B11 B10 B9 B8 B7 B6 B5 B4 B3 B2 B1 > Byte sequence is reversed. It isn't a Big/Little Endian issue. The > entire 16 bytes string is reversed. VMS, at least, formats its dumps this way. Sure you actually have a byte ordering problem? De From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 6 16:18:01 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 14:18:01 -0700 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> Well, I don't know about the consensus, but in my experience, most floppies go bad from wear and/or breakdown in the binder. It's sometimes possible to "renew" a bad disk for use by either AC degaussing or use of a strong DC field, but given the cost of the media, it's scarcely worth the trouble. After all, it's just rust spread on a cookie. ;) --Chuck From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 10:20:47 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 09:20:47 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Apr 2016, JP Hindin wrote: > - Repeated use slowly wears away the magnetic media layer on the mylar. There is no doubt that there is some friction there. However, I'd be surprised if this was the chief cause. > When left in an unprotected state, or a poor environment, damp, mold and > dust can damage the surface, either degrading the magnetic layer or > causing the gap to shrink enough that the drive head physically damages > the disk? I have serious doubts here. While there is no question that contaminates could ruin a disk, a drive, or both, I doubt it's the main cause. Many floppy disks are kept in pretty pristine conditions. I know mine are, and I still have bad sectors. > - Quantum fluctuations in the state of the universe, caused by millions of :-) > Of course, after ten years, it could be your own memory that's failed. That'd be my problem. That or being embarassed by what I find *uncorrupted* on the floppies like college-age poetry and what-not. > Dare I ask, what's the consensus? I'll go way off the rails and say that I beleive it's mostly due to oxidization of the ferromagnetic particles on the floppy itself. I've also heard smarter people than me claim that some floppies used "binders" for the particles on the disk which are attractive to some forms of mold. -Swift From supervinx at libero.it Wed Apr 6 17:53:23 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 00:53:23 +0200 Subject: RSX-11M trouble In-Reply-To: <1459972779.3710.8.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <61115D5C-245D-4AEA-8BB2-6B7DFE959AD0@MatlockFamily.com> <1459972779.3710.8.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: <1459983203.3710.9.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Il giorno mer, 06/04/2016 alle 21.59 +0200, supervinx ha scritto: > Ah, sad and bad news... > Transferred ICP.TSK as usual and checked it with DMP (between simh and > the MicroPDP). > Gave it a try, but got a system crash. > I suspect that the Indirect Command Processor is tightly linked with the > kernel... > I tried the 4.1 ICP.TSK with simh, on 4.2Plus and 4.8, getting a crash and a system hang. No way... From stueberahoo at yahoo.de Wed Apr 6 17:56:33 2016 From: stueberahoo at yahoo.de (Anke =?iso-8859-1?Q?St=FCber?=) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 00:56:33 +0200 Subject: VCF Europe, April 30th - May 1st, Munich + registration for VCF Berlin Message-ID: <20160406225633.GA2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Hi list, the 17th edition of VCF Europe[0] is coming soon! It will take place on April 30th and May 1st in Munich, Germany. Please be aware that the information on the English version of the website might be outdated or less detailed than on the German page, but Google Translate will help. Also the registration for VCF Berlin[1] in October is open now. We are looking for speakers, workshop instructors and exhibitors, both for the regular exhibition and this year's special exhibition on computers and languages. It will be open for visitors on Sunday, 2nd and Monday, 3rd of October, as the 3rd October is a public holiday in Germany, but we are thinking about inviting people to build up on Friday already and using Saturday, 1st of October as a day just for the participants and the community. This way there would be more time to talk and see the other exhibitions. Maybe we could even offer advanced workshops on Saturday. Come and visit us! Ping me if you need a place to stay. Regards, Anke [0] http://vcfe.org/E/index.html [1] http://vcfb.de/2016/index.html.en From lists at loomcom.com Wed Apr 6 18:00:38 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 18:00:38 -0500 Subject: AT&T 4425 (Teletype 56D) repair In-Reply-To: References: <20160405170529.GB10398@loomcom.com> <20160406160851.GA19610@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20160406230038.GA8952@loomcom.com> * On Wed, Apr 06, 2016 at 03:11:54PM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: > SL0227 is a house number, and isn't likely to mean anything to anyone. > It might be a Z80, but it could just as easily be a mask-programmed > Z8. This is good information. I did measure a 3.3MHz clock signal on pin 6, which leads me to believe it's a Z80 or derivative, but I will proceed with caution and try not to make any assumptions. Voltages look OK, I see the aforementioned clock, and my cursory inspection for cold solder joints and broken traces didn't show anything obvious, so next I'll dump the ROMs and see what secrets they reveal. -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 19:55:05 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 19:55:05 -0500 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17606682-72D1-48C9-9731-EF87D3DE68A2@gmail.com> > On Apr 6, 2016, at 3:15 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > > > I had one of those Japanese Koan moments recently when someone asked me "Why do floppy disks stop working?" and I realised I... didn't actually know. I thought I'd throw it to the group and get some theories/proofs. > > Let's work on the assumption we're talking about 5.25" and 3.5" disks. > > Several guesses: > - Repeated use slowly wears away the magnetic media layer on the mylar. > - When left in an unprotected state, or a poor environment, damp, mold and dust can damage the surface, either degrading the magnetic layer or causing the gap to shrink enough that the drive head physically damages the disk? > - Quantum fluctuations in the state of the universe, caused by millions of mostly non-interacting particles passing through a disk in any given minute, alter the magnetic spin of the ferric atoms causing gradual data loss over time (mostly tongue-in-cheek) > - Given the lack of use of most floppy drives they themselves pick up 'gunk' and on first reading a diskette after a long time of disuse damage it. > > It _seems_ like when you put a 3.5" disk down for ten years and pick it back up, a disk that used to work fine no longer does. Of course, after ten years, it could be your own memory that's failed. > > Dare I ask, what's the consensus? > > - JP On a related note... What causes an old mfm / roll drive to die if the heads aren't touching the surface except in the landing zone? I have read that it's not impossible for the "pigment" to lose its coercivity over time. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 6 20:00:40 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 21:00:40 -0400 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2BD94440-A3E4-4572-AD99-D66421304F29@comcast.net> > On Apr 6, 2016, at 5:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Well, I don't know about the consensus, but in my experience, most > floppies go bad from wear and/or breakdown in the binder. I have no experience with this issue in floppies. But I have a distressingly large quantity of audio cassettes that have gone bad over 10 or 20 years. It wasn't wear; they weren't played regularly. Instead, something bad happened with the structure of the coating so that they would squeak loudly when played, both over the playback and physically (noisy passage over the head). The problem is clearly incompetent chemical engineering, because it showed up only in one brand, which as a result is now on my "never again" list for any of its products. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Apr 6 20:07:09 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 20:07:09 -0500 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5705B2BD.9060503@pico-systems.com> On 04/06/2016 10:20 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: >> When left in an unprotected state, or a poor environment, damp, mold and >> dust can damage the surface, either degrading the magnetic layer or >> causing the gap to shrink enough that the drive head physically damages >> the disk? Gap? There IS no gap on a standard floppy. The head contacts the media surface. (Bernoulli drives did have a gap, and spun at a much higher RPM.) But, on most single-sided floppies, there was a felt pad that pressed the media against the head. The only gap might be when the head load solenoid is de-energized, the pad retracts and the media pulls away from the surface. That was used on the old drives with AC motors that spun the disk all the time. Most double-sided drives pinched the media between the two heads, and the DC motor shut off when there was no reading/writing for a while. > > I'll go way off the rails and say that I beleive it's mostly due to > oxidization of the ferromagnetic particles on the floppy itself. I've also > heard smarter people than me claim that some floppies used "binders" for the > particles on the disk which are attractive to some forms of mold. > > All floppies and magnetic tapes have some kind of binder to hold the oxide to the backing, and it does deteriorate over time. Ozone and other air pollution probably makes it go bad faster. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 6 20:07:28 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 21:07:28 -0400 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <17606682-72D1-48C9-9731-EF87D3DE68A2@gmail.com> References: <17606682-72D1-48C9-9731-EF87D3DE68A2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <66B95B8D-9D63-4D63-8B2E-532168E9C615@comcast.net> > On Apr 6, 2016, at 8:55 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > > On a related note... What causes an old mfm / roll drive to die if the heads aren't touching the surface except in the landing zone? > > I have read that it's not impossible for the "pigment" to lose its coercivity over time. I would like to hear an explanation of the physics behind that claim. Off hand, I don't believe it. A likely cause of drive failure is contamination. That could come from inadequate seals (or seals that degrade over time). It could also be from contaminants released by components of the drive itself, if their chemistry is not quite right. It doesn't take much to cause a head crash. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 6 21:22:17 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 19:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <2BD94440-A3E4-4572-AD99-D66421304F29@comcast.net> References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> <2BD94440-A3E4-4572-AD99-D66421304F29@comcast.net> Message-ID: Wear happens. Particularly on directory tracks, or where you encounter the snake in Adventure. But, that doesn't account for the loss of data over time. Entropy: Could the rust on the cookie be de-oxidizing, and turning back into non-oxidized ferrous compounds? :-) How long were they supposed to last? Will they honor those "lifetime guarantee"s? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 6 21:36:47 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 19:36:47 -0700 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <2BD94440-A3E4-4572-AD99-D66421304F29@comcast.net> References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> <2BD94440-A3E4-4572-AD99-D66421304F29@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5705C7BF.9020601@sydex.com> On 04/06/2016 06:00 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > I have no experience with this issue in floppies. But I have a > distressingly large quantity of audio cassettes that have gone bad > over 10 or 20 years. It wasn't wear; they weren't played regularly. > Instead, something bad happened with the structure of the coating so > that they would squeak loudly when played, both over the playback and > physically (noisy passage over the head). The problem is clearly > incompetent chemical engineering, because it showed up only in one > brand, which as a result is now on my "never again" list for any of > its products. Floppies, tapes, etc. can suffer breakdown in binder, leading to the dreaded "sticky shed" issue, for which baking is often prescribed. I've had half-inch tapes suffer from binder "bleed", where the sticky stuff ends up on the oxide surface and sticks to just about *anything*, including heads, guides, etc. Running said tape through a cleaning machine does next to nothing, other than to cause the tape to stick to the cleaning blade. Short term, your friend is D5/cyclomethicone applied as a thin layer and the tape read immedately (D5 is somewhat volatile and evaporates). I'll emphasize that my interest is strictly in *reading* and not writing or re-use of this stuff. Again, my money's on binder breakdown. I have lots of samples if someone wants to investigate further, but the audio tape guys have done a lot of work on this. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Apr 6 21:56:14 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 21:56:14 -0500 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <2BD94440-A3E4-4572-AD99-D66421304F29@comcast.net> References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> <2BD94440-A3E4-4572-AD99-D66421304F29@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5705CC4E.8070003@pico-systems.com> On 04/06/2016 08:00 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Apr 6, 2016, at 5:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> Well, I don't know about the consensus, but in my experience, most >> floppies go bad from wear and/or breakdown in the binder. > I have no experience with this issue in floppies. But I have a distressingly large quantity of audio cassettes that have gone bad over 10 or 20 years. It wasn't wear; they weren't played regularly. Instead, something bad happened with the structure of the coating so that they would squeak loudly when played, both over the playback and physically (noisy passage over the head). The problem is clearly incompetent chemical engineering, because it showed up only in one brand, which as a result is now on my "never again" list for any of its products. > That is usually the pressure pad has gotten some wipe-off from the tape, and becomes a sticky, instead of slippery, material. If you can get to it, you can sometimes scrape the sticky material off with a knife to produce a better surface. On a (one sided) floppy drive, the pressure pad is part of the drive, not the media. Jon Jon From lists at loomcom.com Wed Apr 6 22:12:11 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 22:12:11 -0500 Subject: AT&T 4425 (Teletype 56D) repair - FIXED In-Reply-To: <20160405170529.GB10398@loomcom.com> References: <20160405170529.GB10398@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20160407031211.GA21805@loomcom.com> Well that was fast and easy. Thank goodness. It turns out the culprit was the Astec power supply. It had a dry solder joint on the "DC OK" line. A few drops of fresh solder later and the terminal is good as new (well, as good as any 35-year-old terminal can be, anyway) While I was inside, I removed a very old but thankfully non-leaky battery. Need to figure out a new battery if I want to preserve settings. If anyone is interested, I did dump the terminal's ROMs while I had it open. They're here: http://www.loomcom.com/3b2/att_4425_rom -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Apr 6 22:59:42 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 23:59:42 -0400 Subject: VCF East update - three keynotes, TWO original Apple 1, etc. Message-ID: <5705DB2E.5010205@snarc.net> Hi classiccmp'ers. VCF East starts in just 8 days from now. It's at the InfoAge Science Center in Wall, New Jersey, USA. Three keynotes: John Blankenbaker (Friday), Stewart Cheifet (Saturday), Ted Nelson (Sunday). Three dozen hands-on exhibits. TWO original Apple 1 computers, including one up-and-running. Oh and there will be a Kenbak-1 also. :) A dozen-ish tech classes. 8-bit game programming competition sponsored by Hackaday. Consignment room. And the on-site, year-round computer museum is now TWICE as large as before. Come see awesome stuff such as our circa-1965 UNIVAC 1219B mainframe. Kids get in free on Saturday/Sunday. All the details, along with online ticketing, are at http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-east/. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 23:25:54 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 04:25:54 +0000 Subject: AT&T 4425 (Teletype 56D) repair In-Reply-To: <20160406160851.GA19610@loomcom.com> References: <20160405170529.GB10398@loomcom.com>, <20160406160851.GA19610@loomcom.com> Message-ID: > > The "SL0227 / 404780" part appears to be a Zilog Z80 CPU of some kind, The '404780' number looks a bit like a Teletype part number... IIRC the Z80 has very odd positions for the power and ground pins, you should be able to verify that it is a Z80 from that. Then stick a 'scope or counter on the clock input pin to see how fast it is being driven, that will tell you what type (plain, A, B, H) is needed. -tony From alexey.toptygin at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 23:56:19 2016 From: alexey.toptygin at gmail.com (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 00:56:19 -0400 Subject: Giving away 0.35 metric tons of books* Message-ID: *some restrictions apply :-) Evan Koblentz pointed me to a rescue here in the triangle, NC area back in August 2015. Some items were set aside for VCFed, but there were A LOT of books and other media that were up for grabs. Because I'm a sucker, I took and then carefully cleaned and catalogued them all. The master list is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19UYeJlhiVYVExCAO2NSzcAkBww0kEeAYrEGeJ82ACOg There really are 17 boxes, and they really do weigh 780lb or approximately 0.35 metric tons. They're mostly books (from the 80s and 90s), but there are some floppies, some boxed sets, and even a small box of VHS tapes. The previous owner stored all this stuff in abysmal conditions, so there was a lot of mold (and some dead insects and some live insects, and... you know how it goes). I cleaned every item as much as possible. Some items had to be disposed of for safety reasons. That which made it into the cataloging stage is at least scanable, but if it says 'mildewed' on it, and you have a mold allergy, you don't want it. I don't know if any floppies are readable, and unless the catalog says it comes with media, I haven't got the media. Luckily most items survived relatively intact. You can have anything in the spreadsheet free of charge provided: 1) You are willing to take WHOLE BOXES at VCF East XI, you let me know by Weds 4/13/16, and they fit in my car when I pack for VCF. OR 2) You want to come to Durham to pick them up at a prearranged time after VCF OR 3) You are willing to wait until the next VCF East, and let me know far enough in advance that I can set items aside for you. If you want single items, and you don't want to wait until VCF East 2017, I'll do my best to mail them to you after this VCF is over, but you'll need to pay for shipping. I would prefer not to ship whole boxes; they're sturdy moving boxes but they weigh 40-60lb each and I'm pretty sure if you drop them hard enough the contents won't like it. I'm in Durham, NC 27701. I don't want any of this to go to recycling, so I'll try to hold it for at least a year or the next VCF East after this one. After that, all bets are off. Let me know if you are interested in any of this stuff, or if you have questions; in case the mailing list(s) eat it, my email is alexey.toptygin at gmail dot com. Thanks! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 7 00:56:11 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 22:56:11 -0700 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> <2BD94440-A3E4-4572-AD99-D66421304F29@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5705F67B.6000801@sydex.com> On 04/06/2016 07:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > How long were they supposed to last? Will they honor those "lifetime > guarantee"s? Kodak, when it was entering the market with floppy media, even offered to recover data from bad (Kodak) floppies. That offer, obviously didn't last very long. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Apr 7 01:25:58 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 23:25:58 -0700 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> <2BD94440-A3E4-4572-AD99-D66421304F29@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2016-Apr-06, at 7:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > How long were they supposed to last? > Will they honor those "lifetime guarantee"s? Try getting a replacement for one of those Lifetime vacuum tubes at Radio Shack. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 7 02:39:50 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 01:39:50 -0600 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> <2BD94440-A3E4-4572-AD99-D66421304F29@comcast.net> Message-ID: <57060EC6.50407@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/6/2016 8:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Wear happens. Particularly on directory tracks, or where you encounter > the snake in Adventure. > > But, that doesn't account for the loss of data over time. > > Entropy: Could the rust on the cookie be de-oxidizing, and turning back > into non-oxidized ferrous compounds? :-) > > > How long were they supposed to last? > Will they honor those "lifetime guarantee"s? You mean like the ones on Radio Shack Vacuum Tubes,a year or so before they all vanished from the face of the Earth. Ben. From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 03:26:37 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:26:37 +0200 Subject: DEC fieldguide Message-ID: Hello, I'm a modest collector of DEC and PDP11 stuff, I always thank who wrote the PDP11 field guide with the almost complete list of all the existing boards... Now comes the idea: could be useful having a website where the field guide assume a graphical aspect, including pictures of the parts, descriptions, and so on? Of course it would be almost impossible for one alone to do all the work, but I'm thinking of a sort of wiki, where subscripted users can upload pictures, informations and documentations. Maybe something similar already exists? Thanks Andrea From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 04:23:29 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 04:23:29 -0500 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> <2BD94440-A3E4-4572-AD99-D66421304F29@comcast.net> Message-ID: "Try getting a replacement for one of those Lifetime vacuum tubes at Radio Shack." Beat me to it. I tried that twenty years ago (with a bad quartet of 7591s) and needless to say, got nowhere. "We haven't sold those in years!" - as if that makes any difference, in terms of the warranty? Sure, I can appreciate their position, but still.. they _did_ garner a premium price for those 'Lifetime' tubes with the fancy-dancy gold pins. And IIRC, the warranty is "For the lifetime of the equipment in which the tubes are originally installed". So it's not as if it's limited to either the original owner or purchaser. Sigh, the brilliance of "Huh?!??!" ;-) On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:25 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-Apr-06, at 7:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > How long were they supposed to last? > > Will they honor those "lifetime guarantee"s? > > > Try getting a replacement for one of those Lifetime vacuum tubes at Radio > Shack. > > From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 04:32:28 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:32:28 +0200 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? Message-ID: The problem with lifetime warranties is that they're not about the lifetime of the owner, and they're not about the lifetime of the product. What it means is "as long as it's a product we're still selling" (except for those cases where it *really* is the lifetime of the product.. in which case it means "the warranty is valid until the product fails"). From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 06:56:31 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 07:56:31 -0400 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: not sure if anyone mentioned this point yet, but I have found that the drives destroy good disks a sizable percentage of the time. Keeping the heads clean and testing a drive before use with an important vintage disk is key to the longevity of the disk. I also always make a backup copy of most every disk I use, and leave the original in a safe temp-consistent place. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 7 08:50:34 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 09:50:34 -0400 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> <2BD94440-A3E4-4572-AD99-D66421304F29@comcast.net> Message-ID: <24B7CCA8-D5F4-4147-8669-F9A4E0651CB4@comcast.net> > On Apr 6, 2016, at 10:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > ... > Entropy: Could the rust on the cookie be de-oxidizing, and turning back into non-oxidized ferrous compounds? No. If that were true, iron ore would spontaneously turn into iron. Unfortunately, that does not happen. paul From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Apr 7 09:01:18 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 15:01:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Apr 2016, Tor Arntsen wrote: > The problem with lifetime warranties is that they're not about the > lifetime of the owner, and they're not about the lifetime of the > product. What it means is "as long as it's a product we're still > selling" Well, that's an interesting observation, and actually I find it reasonable even -- after all how can a supplier replace their product they don't have anymore? I wish it was more clearly stated though, and then of course respected in all cases. Maciej From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 7 10:00:44 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 16:00:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF Europe, April 30th - May 1st, Munich + registration for VCF Berlin In-Reply-To: <20160406225633.GA2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> References: <20160406225633.GA2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Message-ID: <11274950.46623.1460041244847.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> I'm not sure I'd be able to go to that. Its says all items have to be more than 10 years old MY replica PDP front panels are brand new!! Rod Smallwood ----Original message---- >From : stueberahoo at yahoo.de Date : 06/04/2016 - 23:56 (GMTDT) To : cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject : VCF Europe, April 30th - May 1st, Munich + registration for VCF Berlin Hi list, the 17th edition of VCF Europe[0] is coming soon! It will take place on April 30th and May 1st in Munich, Germany. Please be aware that the information on the English version of the website might be outdated or less detailed than on the German page, but Google Translate will help. Also the registration for VCF Berlin[1] in October is open now. We are looking for speakers, workshop instructors and exhibitors, both for the regular exhibition and this year's special exhibition on computers and languages. It will be open for visitors on Sunday, 2nd and Monday, 3rd of October, as the 3rd October is a public holiday in Germany, but we are thinking about inviting people to build up on Friday already and using Saturday, 1st of October as a day just for the participants and the community. This way there would be more time to talk and see the other exhibitions. Maybe we could even offer advanced workshops on Saturday. Come and visit us! Ping me if you need a place to stay. Regards, Anke [0] http://vcfe.org/E/index.html [1] http://vcfb.de/2016/index.html.en From scaron at diablonet.net Thu Apr 7 10:21:52 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:21:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC fieldguide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Apr 2016, shadoooo wrote: > Hello, > I'm a modest collector of DEC and PDP11 stuff, I always thank who wrote the > PDP11 field guide with the almost complete list of all the existing > boards... > Now comes the idea: could be useful having a website where the field guide > assume a graphical aspect, including pictures of the parts, descriptions, > and so on? > Of course it would be almost impossible for one alone to do all the work, > but I'm thinking of a sort of wiki, where subscripted users can upload > pictures, informations and documentations. > Maybe something similar already exists? > > Thanks > Andrea > Hi Andrea, For the case of some Q-bus boards this has already been done: http://vaxarchive.pimpworks.org/hw/vfg/ Enjoy! Best, Sean From stueberahoo at yahoo.de Thu Apr 7 10:59:48 2016 From: stueberahoo at yahoo.de (Anke =?iso-8859-1?Q?St=FCber?=) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 17:59:48 +0200 Subject: VCF Europe, April 30th - May 1st, Munich + registration for VCF Berlin In-Reply-To: <11274950.46623.1460041244847.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> References: <20160406225633.GA2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <11274950.46623.1460041244847.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> Message-ID: <20160407155948.GB2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Hi, On Thu, Apr 07, 2016 at 04:00:44PM +0100, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > I'm not sure I'd be able to go to that. Its says all items have to be > more than 10 years old it's just a general rule we use to explain to people that their old Windows PC isn't considered vintage. Of course there are exceptions to this rule, like building enhancements for or replicas of vintage hardware. For example last year Oscar Vermeulen exhibited his PiDP-8 and KIM Uno. In case you are unsure whether your exhibition would fit you can always contact us at info at vcfb.de. If anybody has a nicer definition of "vintage" or would like to help with the translation of the website, we appreciate any help! Regards, Anke From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 7 11:18:21 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:18:21 -0500 Subject: VCF Europe, April 30th - May 1st, Munich + registration for VCF Berlin In-Reply-To: <20160407155948.GB2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> References: <20160406225633.GA2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <11274950.46623.1460041244847.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> <20160407155948.GB2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Message-ID: <000401d190e9$1a6dd3c0$4f497b40$@classiccmp.org> Anke wrote... ===== If anybody has a nicer definition of "vintage" or ===== Please... not here..... From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 7 11:34:12 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 17:34:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF Europe, April 30th - May 1st, Munich + registration for VCF Berlin In-Reply-To: <000401d190e9$1a6dd3c0$4f497b40$@classiccmp.org> References: <20160406225633.GA2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <11274950.46623.1460041244847.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> <20160407155948.GB2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <000401d190e9$1a6dd3c0$4f497b40$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20801747.57591.1460046852888.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> ----Original message---- >From : jwest at classiccmp.org Date : 07/04/2016 - 17:18 (GMTDT) To : cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject : RE: VCF Europe, April 30th - May 1st, Munich + registration for VCF Berlin Anke wrote... ===== If anybody has a nicer definition of "vintage" or ===== Please... not here..... Krug Clos du Mesnil 2000 From stueberahoo at yahoo.de Thu Apr 7 11:42:05 2016 From: stueberahoo at yahoo.de (Anke =?iso-8859-1?Q?St=FCber?=) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 18:42:05 +0200 Subject: VCF Europe, April 30th - May 1st, Munich + registration for VCF Berlin In-Reply-To: <000401d190e9$1a6dd3c0$4f497b40$@classiccmp.org> References: <20160406225633.GA2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <11274950.46623.1460041244847.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> <20160407155948.GB2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <000401d190e9$1a6dd3c0$4f497b40$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20160407164205.GC2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Hi, On Thu, Apr 07, 2016 at 11:18:21AM -0500, Jay West wrote: > Anke wrote... > ===== > If anybody has a nicer definition of "vintage" or > ===== > > Please... not here..... no, not here of course, just send a mail to me directly or to info at vcfb.de. Regards, Anke From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 7 11:50:11 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:50:11 -0500 Subject: VCF Europe, April 30th - May 1st, Munich + registration for VCF Berlin In-Reply-To: <20160407164205.GC2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> References: <20160406225633.GA2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <11274950.46623.1460041244847.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> <20160407155948.GB2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <000401d190e9$1a6dd3c0$4f497b40$@classiccmp.org> <20160407164205.GC2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Message-ID: <000001d190ed$8cc3dbf0$a64b93d0$@classiccmp.org> I want to be clear... I was not saying Anke shouldn't have posted about VCF here. His post was 100% fine and appreciated. I just didn't want to get into a "what is classic/vintage" thread again ;) J From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 7 12:11:14 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:11:14 -0700 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <570694B2.4070101@sydex.com> On 04/07/2016 02:32 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > The problem with lifetime warranties is that they're not about the > lifetime of the owner, and they're not about the lifetime of the > product. What it means is "as long as it's a product we're still > selling" (except for those cases where it *really* is the lifetime > of the product.. in which case it means "the warranty is valid until > the product fails"). Sometimes, very rarely, it does happen the other way. The guys at the local auto parts store tell me about the woman who comes in about every 5 years to have her car battery replaced, free of charge, since she bought into a promotional deal for replacement batteries "for as long as you own your car". IIRC, she owns a 1984 Volvo. Magazines used to offer "lifetime subscriptions", but I haven't seen those lately. I'm a life member of a couple of professional organizations, but I don't know if they even exist any longer. My water heater supposedly has a guarantee for replacement for as long as I own my home. I haven't had to claim a replacement yet. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 7 12:12:59 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:12:59 -0700 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5706951B.8020703@sydex.com> On 04/07/2016 04:56 AM, william degnan wrote: > not sure if anyone mentioned this point yet, but I have found that the > drives destroy good disks a sizable percentage of the time. Keeping the > heads clean and testing a drive before use with an important vintage disk > is key to the longevity of the disk. I also always make a backup copy of > most every disk I use, and leave the original in a safe temp-consistent > place. > I'll go one step further and state that if you hear your drive squealing, throw the disk away and clean the heads before you insert another disk. Otherwise, the problem can spread like measles. --Chuck From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 7 13:15:20 2016 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 18:15:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Front Panels Latest In-Reply-To: <3554370.51181.1459955370528.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> References: <3554370.51181.1459955370528.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> Message-ID: <1983584611.1177191.1460052920570.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rod, That's exciting news. ?I've already got an order in for 2 8/f and 2 8/m panels, but if you still have any spare type "B" 8/e panels (that's the one with the angled selector knob markings, right?), I'd like to add one in to the 8/m and 8/f panel shipment. ?(It's the order from Southlake, TX, USA, ZIP 76092.) Just remind me how much, and I'll send a paypal payment for the additional panel. ?If the shipping price goes up, just let me know how much extra to add in. Best regards, Dave On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 4:03 PM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: Hi Guys ? ? ? ? ? PDP-8/e A panels now shipping ? ? ? ? ? PDP 8/e B panels ship on Friday ? ? ? ? ? PDP-8/ f and /m ship on 14th I have some extras of the above if you are quick. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 7 13:35:38 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 12:35:38 -0600 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <570694B2.4070101@sydex.com> References: <570694B2.4070101@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5706A87A.1070004@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/7/2016 11:11 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/07/2016 02:32 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: >> The problem with lifetime warranties is that they're not about the >> lifetime of the owner, and they're not about the lifetime of the >> product. What it means is "as long as it's a product we're still >> selling" (except for those cases where it *really* is the lifetime >> of the product.. in which case it means "the warranty is valid until >> the product fails"). > > > Sometimes, very rarely, it does happen the other way. The guys at the > local auto parts store tell me about the woman who comes in about every > 5 years to have her car battery replaced, free of charge, since she > bought into a promotional deal for replacement batteries "for as long as > you own your car". IIRC, she owns a 1984 Volvo. Radio Shack seems to have dropped the Free Batteries too. I think they would have made more $$ with a New Phone of the Month Club. Ben. PS: You can still get tubes, just more $$$. From jws at jwsss.com Thu Apr 7 15:07:06 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 13:07:06 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek Message-ID: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com> A friend has a large set of paper tape which seems to be from a DG User group (not sure about that, but label on box sort of implies that). The tape pile is fanfold about 10" across in a DG box specially made for such use. We hope to have a reader to digitize it soon, but wonder if anyone knows of such a program? We just have the labels which say that is what the tape has to go on. More photos and the like later. I know that more info would be helpful, but figured I'd ask first. thanks Jim From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Apr 7 15:38:37 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 16:38:37 -0400 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... Message-ID: <17fa01d1910d$76b2b280$64181780$@sudbrink@verizon.net> If you have a circuit which is normally designed to operate with an unregulated supply, through a regulator... say unregulated +8 through a 7805 to a regulated +5 and you want to test it independent of the +8 supply, if you leave the unregulated rail unattached and put +5 switcher straight onto the regulated +5 rail, will you damage the 7805? Clearly the VIN is open, but the ground pin will still be attached. Would this push voltage back through and screw things up? Thanks, Bill S. From wulfman at wulfman.com Thu Apr 7 15:41:23 2016 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 13:41:23 -0700 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <17fa01d1910d$76b2b280$64181780$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <17fa01d1910d$76b2b280$64181780$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> You should be just fine. On 4/7/2016 1:38 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > If you have a circuit which is normally designed to > operate with an unregulated supply, through a regulator... > say unregulated +8 through a 7805 to a regulated +5 and > you want to test it independent of the +8 supply, if > you leave the unregulated rail unattached and put +5 > switcher straight onto the regulated +5 rail, will you > damage the 7805? Clearly the VIN is open, but the ground > pin will still be attached. Would this push voltage > back through and screw things up? > > Thanks, > Bill S. > > > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 15:58:32 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 15:58:32 -0500 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> Message-ID: Err.. unless the voltage of the switcher is identical to that of the 7805, then one device will source current, and the other will sink it. Like putting two 6V batteries in parallel, where one is fresh and the other weak. Current will flow until the potentials are equalized. But with two regulated circuits, I don't see how equality can be achieved. Not saying it's going to smoke-out, but it does seem like a wonky thing to do. On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 3:41 PM, wulfman wrote: > You should be just fine. > > On 4/7/2016 1:38 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > If you have a circuit which is normally designed to > > operate with an unregulated supply, through a regulator... > > say unregulated +8 through a 7805 to a regulated +5 and > > you want to test it independent of the +8 supply, if > > you leave the unregulated rail unattached and put +5 > > switcher straight onto the regulated +5 rail, will you > > damage the 7805? Clearly the VIN is open, but the ground > > pin will still be attached. Would this push voltage > > back through and screw things up? > > > > Thanks, > > Bill S. > > > > > > > > > -- > The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for > the use of the named > addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. > Any unauthorized use, > copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is > strictly prohibited by > the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, > please notify the sender > immediately and delete this e-mail. > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 16:03:54 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 17:03:54 -0400 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> Message-ID: Per his description, the 7805's input will be open. It will not try to source any current, as it will have none to give. I suppose there might be a little leakage. -- Will On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:58 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Err.. unless the voltage of the switcher is identical to that of the 7805, > then one device will source current, and the other will sink it. > > Like putting two 6V batteries in parallel, where one is fresh and the other > weak. Current will flow until the potentials are equalized. But with two > regulated circuits, I don't see how equality can be achieved. > > Not saying it's going to smoke-out, but it does seem like a wonky thing to > do. > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 3:41 PM, wulfman wrote: > >> You should be just fine. >> >> On 4/7/2016 1:38 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> > If you have a circuit which is normally designed to >> > operate with an unregulated supply, through a regulator... >> > say unregulated +8 through a 7805 to a regulated +5 and >> > you want to test it independent of the +8 supply, if >> > you leave the unregulated rail unattached and put +5 >> > switcher straight onto the regulated +5 rail, will you >> > damage the 7805? Clearly the VIN is open, but the ground >> > pin will still be attached. Would this push voltage >> > back through and screw things up? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Bill S. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for >> the use of the named >> addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. >> Any unauthorized use, >> copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is >> strictly prohibited by >> the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please notify the sender >> immediately and delete this e-mail. >> >> From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Apr 7 16:07:38 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 23:07:38 +0200 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <17fa01d1910d$76b2b280$64181780$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <17fa01d1910d$76b2b280$64181780$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Bill Sudbrink Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2016 10:38 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... If you have a circuit which is normally designed to operate with an unregulated supply, through a regulator... say unregulated +8 through a 7805 to a regulated +5 and you want to test it independent of the +8 supply, if you leave the unregulated rail unattached and put +5 switcher straight onto the regulated +5 rail, will you damage the 7805? Clearly the VIN is open, but the ground pin will still be attached. Would this push voltage back through and screw things up? Thanks, Bill S. --------- It is a special situation I have never seen, but I would try to disconnect the output of the 7805 before connecting a foreign +5V to the circuit. It is good practice to have a diode reverse connected from output to input to prevent damage to the 78xx in the case that the output voltage gets higher than the input voltage. Normally that would not happen, but if you have a high capacitance at the output and the load is minimal it could be possible when power is switched off that the input voltage dropped, but due to the big capacitor at the output the output voltage did not yet drop. And then that diode in reverse from output to input comes into play. Now the input is not connected, but GND and the output are ... I would have a look at a data sheet of the 78xx series to see what could happen if the input is not connected, but the output is. So, if possible, simply disconnect the 78xx output lead first. - Henk From jrr at flippers.com Thu Apr 7 16:15:41 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 14:15:41 -0700 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> Message-ID: <5706CDFD.7070005@flippers.com> On 04/07/2016 2:03 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Per his description, the 7805's input will be open. It will not try to > source any current, as it will have none to give. > > I suppose there might be a little leakage. > > -- > Will If his intention is to bypass the 7805 then it should have both input and output legs cut and lifted. John :-#)# > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:58 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> Err.. unless the voltage of the switcher is identical to that of the 7805, >> then one device will source current, and the other will sink it. >> >> Like putting two 6V batteries in parallel, where one is fresh and the other >> weak. Current will flow until the potentials are equalized. But with two >> regulated circuits, I don't see how equality can be achieved. >> >> Not saying it's going to smoke-out, but it does seem like a wonky thing to >> do. >> >> On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 3:41 PM, wulfman wrote: >> >>> You should be just fine. >>> >>> On 4/7/2016 1:38 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>>> If you have a circuit which is normally designed to >>>> operate with an unregulated supply, through a regulator... >>>> say unregulated +8 through a 7805 to a regulated +5 and >>>> you want to test it independent of the +8 supply, if >>>> you leave the unregulated rail unattached and put +5 >>>> switcher straight onto the regulated +5 rail, will you >>>> damage the 7805? Clearly the VIN is open, but the ground >>>> pin will still be attached. Would this push voltage >>>> back through and screw things up? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Bill S. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for >>> the use of the named >>> addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. >>> Any unauthorized use, >>> copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is >>> strictly prohibited by >>> the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, >>> please notify the sender >>> immediately and delete this e-mail. >>> >>> -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Apr 7 16:18:48 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 17:18:48 -0400 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> Message-ID: <181001d19113$139baa70$3ad2ff50$@sudbrink@verizon.net> drlegendre wrote: > Not saying it's going to smoke-out, but it does > seem like a wonky thing to do. I disagree about "wonky" let me try with more diagram and less English: (+8) | VIN| ceramic cap |-----][----- ___|____ | | 7805 |----------GROUND -------- | | | VOUT|(+5) | | | ___|____ | | LOAD |-------| -------- +8 is not currently available (no pun intended). I would like to test LOAD without removing 7805 as it is soldered in place. Is damage to 7805 likely if alternative regulated current is applied at (+5) and (+8) is left open? Bill S. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Apr 7 16:23:19 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 17:23:19 -0400 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <5706CDFD.7070005@flippers.com> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5706CDFD.7070005@flippers.com> Message-ID: <181401d19113$b51bd000$1f537000$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Maybe I'm overthinking this. If I just put regulated +5 on the 7805 VIN will it work? Bill S. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 7 16:25:15 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 14:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <181401d19113$b51bd000$1f537000$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5706CDFD.7070005@flippers.com> <181401d19113$b51bd000$1f537000$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Apr 2016, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Maybe I'm overthinking this. If I just put > regulated +5 on the 7805 VIN will it work? > Isn't the minimum input voltage for a 7805, 6vdc? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Apr 7 16:31:45 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 14:31:45 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek In-Reply-To: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com> References: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Star Trek was a quite common BASIC (game ?) program on at least the HP 2000 time share systems, I've seen quite a few variations, on ran on RT-11. Be quite careful with the tape, the folds can be quite fragile depending on how and where the tape was stored. When I had my 'computer room' set up (its now put away for a major house remodel) I had an optical reader that I modified so I could vary the read speed down to pretty much zero CPS just for this reason. -pete On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:07 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > A friend has a large set of paper tape which seems to be from a DG User > group (not sure about that, but label on box sort of implies that). > > The tape pile is fanfold about 10" across in a DG box specially made for > such use. > > We hope to have a reader to digitize it soon, but wonder if anyone knows > of such a program? We just have the labels which say that is what the tape > has to go on. > > More photos and the like later. I know that more info would be helpful, > but figured I'd ask first. > thanks > Jim > > From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Thu Apr 7 16:38:15 2016 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 23:38:15 +0200 Subject: VCF Europe, April 30th - May 1st, Munich + registration for VCF Berlin In-Reply-To: <20160406225633.GA2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> References: <20160406225633.GA2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Message-ID: <5706D347.9090005@ljw.me.uk> On 07/04/16 00:56, Anke St?ber wrote: > the 17th edition of VCF Europe[0] is coming soon! It will take place on > April 30th and May 1st in Munich, Germany. Please be aware that the > information on the English version of the website might be outdated or > less detailed than on the German page, but Google Translate will help. Train and hotel booked for VCFe - see you all there! Thinking about VCFb... -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +41(0)79 926 1036 http://www.ljw.me.uk From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 11:51:22 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:51:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Space Travel (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Apr 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Star Trek was a quite common BASIC (game ?) program on at least the HP 2000 > time share systems, I've seen quite a few variations, on ran on RT-11. That reminds me of the "Space Travel" game/sim that Ken Thompson wrote for the first copy/iteration of Unix. Did anyone ever actually run/see that? There are some screenshots online but I'm curious how the original Unix on that old PDP was hitting a framebuffer. I'm really curious to know how Ken & Dennis approched it, and how far off from today's crazy graphics interfaces was it. -Swift From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 18:08:42 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 16:08:42 -0700 Subject: Space Travel (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Thu, 7 Apr 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > Star Trek was a quite common BASIC (game ?) program on at least the HP > 2000 > > time share systems, I've seen quite a few variations, on ran on RT-11. > > That reminds me of the "Space Travel" game/sim that Ken Thompson wrote for > the first copy/iteration of Unix. > > Did anyone ever actually run/see that? There are some screenshots online > but > I'm curious how the original Unix on that old PDP was hitting a > framebuffer. > I'm really curious to know how Ken & Dennis approched it, and how far off > from today's crazy graphics interfaces was it. > > I was just looking at that graphics system; Multics had a monitor system called XRAY that could see into memory and display live data on a PDP-8 with a 338 display. Looking at the space war source, it seems that it used an earlier iteration of the 338, but with the same basic architecture. It was a vector graphics display, the controller reading a command list from memory consisting on X/Y/intensity values being fed to ADCs connected an oscilloscope or monitor. I have some code that does an X-11 emulation of the Atari Tempest vector graphics display; I'm thinking of wedging it into the simh PDP8 code to emulate the 338 and PDP-1 displays. DECUS has PDP-8 software that runs on the 338, and the spacewar source is available, so that should be emulatable as well. -- Charles From jrr at flippers.com Thu Apr 7 18:20:15 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 16:20:15 -0700 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5706CDFD.7070005@flippers.com> <181401d19113$b51bd000$1f537000$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5706EB2F.10802@flippers.com> On 04/07/2016 2:25 PM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 7 Apr 2016, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > >> Maybe I'm overthinking this. If I just put >> regulated +5 on the 7805 VIN will it work? >> > Isn't the minimum input voltage for a 7805, 6vdc? > > g. > More like 7VDC input minimum (dropout voltage) for 7805 - there are data sheets you know (comment directed at Original Poster). If the OP wants to put 5VDC in, why not cut out the 7805? John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jrr at flippers.com Thu Apr 7 18:23:24 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 16:23:24 -0700 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <181001d19113$139baa70$3ad2ff50$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <181001d19113$139baa70$3ad2ff50$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5706EBEC.6040106@flippers.com> On 04/07/2016 2:18 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > drlegendre wrote: >> Not saying it's going to smoke-out, but it does >> seem like a wonky thing to do. > I disagree about "wonky" let me try with more > diagram and less English: > > (+8) > | > VIN| ceramic cap > |-----][----- > ___|____ | > | 7805 |----------GROUND > -------- | > | | > VOUT|(+5) | > | | > ___|____ | > | LOAD |-------| > -------- > > +8 is not currently available (no pun intended). > I would like to test LOAD without removing 7805 > as it is soldered in place. Is damage to 7805 > likely if alternative regulated current is applied > at (+5) and (+8) is left open? > > Bill S. > > > Yes, you can damage the 7805 - READ the data sheets... Raising the Output Voltage above the Input Voltage: Since the output of the device does not sink current, forcing LM340/LM78MXX Series 3-Terminal Positive Regulators LM340/LM78MXX Series 3-Terminal Positive Regulators the output high can cause damage to internal low current paths in a manner similar to that just described in the ?Short- ing the Regulator Input? section. LM340/LM78MXX Series 3-Terminal Positive Regulato John :-#(# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 18:32:24 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 18:32:24 -0500 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <5706951B.8020703@sydex.com> References: <5706951B.8020703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5706EE08.7040004@gmail.com> On 04/07/2016 12:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'll go one step further and state that if you hear your drive > squealing, throw the disk away and clean the heads before you insert > another disk. If you even get the opportunity. I remember a disk - it was either Parrot or Wabash, I loathe them in equal measure as they seem particularly prone to binder problems - once squeaking in a drive, immediately followed by a crunch as one of the drive heads parted company with the surrounding structure. The heads had only just been cleaned, so all it took was the single read attempt to destroy the drive. Thankfully it's only happened to me the once, but it was annoying as it was in a vintage machine with dual drives, which means at some point I need to find a matching replacement (or replace the junk + good drive with a matched pair) cheers Jules From dave at 661.org Thu Apr 7 18:36:01 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 23:36:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Mac SE/30 analogue board and PS caps Message-ID: Does anyone have a list of the capacitors on the analogue board and power supply for a Mac SE/30? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 18:36:11 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 18:36:11 -0500 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <570694B2.4070101@sydex.com> References: <570694B2.4070101@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5706EEEB.3020204@gmail.com> On 04/07/2016 12:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My water heater supposedly has a guarantee for replacement for as long > as I own my home. I haven't had to claim a replacement yet. I wonder if that also covers parts - e.g. elements and thermostats - or if they try and weasel out of it and only allow a claim when something which really does require outright replacement happens? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 18:41:31 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 19:41:31 -0400 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <5706EBEC.6040106@flippers.com> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5706EBEC.6040106@flippers.com> Message-ID: Does this warning assume that there is something on Vin, and not open? With a quick look at the internal schematic of an old-school 7805, it seems like what Bill suggests (leaving Vin open) will not actually do much. -- Will On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 7:23 PM, John Robertson wrote: > On 04/07/2016 2:18 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> >> drlegendre wrote: >>> >>> Not saying it's going to smoke-out, but it does >>> seem like a wonky thing to do. >> >> I disagree about "wonky" let me try with more >> diagram and less English: >> >> (+8) >> | >> VIN| ceramic cap >> |-----][----- >> ___|____ | >> | 7805 |----------GROUND >> -------- | >> | | >> VOUT|(+5) | >> | | >> ___|____ | >> | LOAD |-------| >> -------- >> >> +8 is not currently available (no pun intended). >> I would like to test LOAD without removing 7805 >> as it is soldered in place. Is damage to 7805 >> likely if alternative regulated current is applied >> at (+5) and (+8) is left open? >> >> Bill S. >> >> >> > Yes, you can damage the 7805 - READ the data sheets... > > Raising the Output Voltage above the Input Voltage: > > Since the output of the device does not sink current, forcing > > LM340/LM78MXX Series 3-Terminal Positive Regulators LM340/LM78MXX Series > 3-Terminal Positive Regulators > > the output high can cause damage to internal low current paths in a manner > similar to that just described in the ?Short- ing the Regulator Input? > section. > > > LM340/LM78MXX Series 3-Terminal Positive Regulato John :-#(# > > -- > John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 > Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) > www.flippers.com > "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 7 18:41:58 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 16:41:58 -0700 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <570694B2.4070101@sydex.com> References: <570694B2.4070101@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5706F046.3020400@bitsavers.org> On 4/7/16 10:11 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: as a guarantee for replacement for as long > as I own my home. I haven't had to claim a replacement yet. > How often do you change the anode rod? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 7 19:28:06 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 17:28:06 -0700 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <5706F046.3020400@bitsavers.org> References: <570694B2.4070101@sydex.com> <5706F046.3020400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5706FB16.8060008@sydex.com> On 04/07/2016 04:41 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 4/7/16 10:11 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: as a guarantee for replacement > for as long >> as I own my home. I haven't had to claim a replacement yet. >> > > How often do you change the anode rod? No anode rod. The tank is polybutylene. I suspect that the heating element isn't part of the deal and that if it goes, it's on my nickel. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 20:08:29 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 20:08:29 -0500 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> Message-ID: "...if you leave the unregulated rail _unattached_ and put +5 switcher straight onto the regulated +5 rail..." My error, I read that as "attached". In any event, just lift both the 7805 IN and OUT pins, and then supply known-solid +5DC between the OUT and GND pads on the board. No, you can't feed the IN pin with +5V, for as others have mentioned, the 7805 has a minimum dropout of 2V or so. On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:03 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Per his description, the 7805's input will be open. It will not try to > source any current, as it will have none to give. > > I suppose there might be a little leakage. > > -- > Will > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:58 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > Err.. unless the voltage of the switcher is identical to that of the > 7805, > > then one device will source current, and the other will sink it. > > > > Like putting two 6V batteries in parallel, where one is fresh and the > other > > weak. Current will flow until the potentials are equalized. But with two > > regulated circuits, I don't see how equality can be achieved. > > > > Not saying it's going to smoke-out, but it does seem like a wonky thing > to > > do. > > > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 3:41 PM, wulfman wrote: > > > >> You should be just fine. > >> > >> On 4/7/2016 1:38 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > >> > If you have a circuit which is normally designed to > >> > operate with an unregulated supply, through a regulator... > >> > say unregulated +8 through a 7805 to a regulated +5 and > >> > you want to test it independent of the +8 supply, if > >> > you leave the unregulated rail unattached and put +5 > >> > switcher straight onto the regulated +5 rail, will you > >> > damage the 7805? Clearly the VIN is open, but the ground > >> > pin will still be attached. Would this push voltage > >> > back through and screw things up? > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > Bill S. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for > >> the use of the named > >> addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. > >> Any unauthorized use, > >> copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is > >> strictly prohibited by > >> the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, > >> please notify the sender > >> immediately and delete this e-mail. > >> > >> > From bobh at tds.net Thu Apr 7 18:39:12 2016 From: bobh at tds.net (bobh at tds.net) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 19:39:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <570694B2.4070101@sydex.com> References: <570694B2.4070101@sydex.com> Message-ID: <487853937.70745718.1460072352336.JavaMail.zimbra@tds.net> You probably can't get the water heater replacement until the old COMPLETELY fails, which means it leaks and floods your house. ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Guzis To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 13:11:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Why do good floppy disks go bad? On 04/07/2016 02:32 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > The problem with lifetime warranties is that they're not about the > lifetime of the owner, and they're not about the lifetime of the > product. What it means is "as long as it's a product we're still > selling" (except for those cases where it *really* is the lifetime > of the product.. in which case it means "the warranty is valid until > the product fails"). Sometimes, very rarely, it does happen the other way. The guys at the local auto parts store tell me about the woman who comes in about every 5 years to have her car battery replaced, free of charge, since she bought into a promotional deal for replacement batteries "for as long as you own your car". IIRC, she owns a 1984 Volvo. Magazines used to offer "lifetime subscriptions", but I haven't seen those lately. I'm a life member of a couple of professional organizations, but I don't know if they even exist any longer. My water heater supposedly has a guarantee for replacement for as long as I own my home. I haven't had to claim a replacement yet. --Chuck From connork at connorsdomain.com Thu Apr 7 21:08:55 2016 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 22:08:55 -0400 Subject: Pinging Joe Rigdon Message-ID: <1460081335.17067.36.camel@connorsdomain.com> Anyone know if Joe Rigdon is still around? Thanks, -Connor K From lists at loomcom.com Thu Apr 7 21:50:58 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 21:50:58 -0500 Subject: ADM 3a with no horizontal scan Message-ID: <20160408025058.GA27461@loomcom.com> Hey folks, I've been on a tear trying to resurrect old projects here, and next on the list is an ADM 3a. This particular 3a has no horizontal scan. None at all. I just get a vertical line down the center of the screen. First thing I checked was the horizontal deflector on the yoke, which seems secure. Before I go diving into the schematics, I figured I'd ask here: Is this a common failure mode? Has anyone else experienced no horizontal scan on a 3a? Any tips on where to look first? -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 7 23:28:25 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 21:28:25 -0700 Subject: Pinging Joe Rigdon In-Reply-To: <1460081335.17067.36.camel@connorsdomain.com> References: <1460081335.17067.36.camel@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 7, 2016, at 7:08 PM, Connor Krukosky wrote: > > Anyone know if Joe Rigdon is still around? > > Thanks, > -Connor K > There is a name I haven?t heard in a *LONG* time. Zane From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 23:34:52 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 23:34:52 -0500 Subject: ADM 3a with no horizontal scan In-Reply-To: <20160408025058.GA27461@loomcom.com> References: <20160408025058.GA27461@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20160408043451.GA30859@gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 07, 2016, Seth Morabito wrote: > > Hey folks, > > I've been on a tear trying to resurrect old projects here, and next on > the list is an ADM 3a. > > This particular 3a has no horizontal scan. None at all. I just get a > vertical line down the center of the screen. First thing I checked was > the horizontal deflector on the yoke, which seems secure. > > Before I go diving into the schematics, I figured I'd ask here: Is > this a common failure mode? Has anyone else experienced no horizontal > scan on a 3a? Any tips on where to look first? Is this the same one that was showing all exclamation points on every other line? -- Eric Christopherson From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 7 23:35:19 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 06:35:19 +0200 Subject: Space Travel (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20160408043518.GA32006@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Apr 07, 2016 at 04:08:42PM -0700, Charles Anthony wrote: > > I have some code that does an X-11 emulation of the Atari Tempest vector > graphics display; I'm thinking of wedging it into the simh PDP8 code to > emulate the 338 and PDP-1 displays. > That woyld be fun :) I could perhaps be used for future PDP-12 and LINC emulators as well. I have read just a little about the 338. I believe it is more or less a dedicated PDP-8. Can you say how it compares with other vector displas, such as VC8E? Thanks, Pontus From lists at loomcom.com Thu Apr 7 23:49:28 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 23:49:28 -0500 Subject: ADM 3a with no horizontal scan In-Reply-To: <20160408043451.GA30859@gmail.com> References: <20160408025058.GA27461@loomcom.com> <20160408043451.GA30859@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160408044928.GA1696@loomcom.com> * On Thu, Apr 07, 2016 at 11:34:52PM -0500, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > Is this the same one that was showing all exclamation points on every > other line? Nope, this is a different one. I got this one "as-is" in a known non-working state. -Seth From t.gardner at computer.org Fri Apr 8 00:06:50 2016 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 22:06:50 -0700 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> Message-ID: <017901d19154$761e1b60$625a5220$@computer.org> As a number of folks have pointed out it's not the magnetic particles - rust is pretty stable; they read a 60 year old RAMAC at the CHM every week or so. And it's not likely the binder, fully cured epoxies are also very stable. Note disks do not have the tension problem that tape has. And it's not likely the substrate, again Mylar is very stable My guess it is both contamination and wear of the head. After all, this is contact recording. Tom From erik at baigar.de Fri Apr 8 00:29:21 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 07:29:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek In-Reply-To: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com> References: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, short version: Yes, I can confirm existence of such a software and I'd be highly interested in a copy. Of course I can offer digitizing it ;-) longer version: I am preserving various Rolm (later Loral) 16 bit machines which are hardened, military machines widely comaptible to the DG hardware (1602 compatible to Nova and MSE14/Micro is the hardened Eclipse). If interested, have a look at my logbook... http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/TimeLine.html#HDDsim ...datecodes 10/20/2014 to 12/15/2014 and 2/3/2015 to 2/28/2015. Together with two friends (both maintaining a 1602B and native DG hardware) we built a harddisc simulator to run advanced software (e.g. RDOS). During my efforts I rescued some paper tapes from Rolm (diagnostics)... http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/EB-RolmTapes.jpg ...and among these serious, mighty tapes was one labeled "Star Trek 1/2". I digitized it, but without the second part it is of nut much use, so I am sure that such a game existed for DG hardware. From the first tape I can tell, that it is not just the BASIC listing, but native machine code and there is a copyright message dating 1969-1973 ;-) > The tape pile is fanfold about 10" across in a DG box specially made for such > use. On some occasions I had trouble reading the 30+ years old oiled black tapes due to some holes on the folds being obscured at the from debris of the ageing paper... The very best from Germany, Erik. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 8 00:46:31 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 22:46:31 -0700 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <017901d19154$761e1b60$625a5220$@computer.org> References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> <017901d19154$761e1b60$625a5220$@computer.org> Message-ID: <570745B7.6060904@sydex.com> On 04/07/2016 10:06 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: > And it's not likely the binder, fully cured epoxies are also very > stable. Note disks do not have the tension problem that tape has. There, I have to respectfully disagree. Floppy disks do not use an epoxy binder, but usually a polyurethane-based one. (Most are proprietary formulations). Hard disk coatings usually use an epoxy-phenolic binder, but they're not on a flexible substrate. Polyurethane isn't forever and tends to be somewhat hygroscopic. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 8 00:49:00 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 22:49:00 -0700 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <017901d19154$761e1b60$625a5220$@computer.org> References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> <017901d19154$761e1b60$625a5220$@computer.org> Message-ID: <5707464C.5030205@sydex.com> This from Fuji may also help a bit when examining the makeup of a floppy disk: http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/Magnetic_Media_Terminology.pdf --Chuck From jrr at flippers.com Fri Apr 8 02:11:55 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 00:11:55 -0700 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5706EBEC.6040106@flippers.com> Message-ID: <570759BB.9010800@flippers.com> On 04/07/2016 4:41 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Does this warning assume that there is something on Vin, and not open? > With a quick look at the internal schematic of an old-school 7805, it > seems like what Bill suggests (leaving Vin open) will not actually do > much. > > -- > Will This warning is for someone who is thinking of adding a large filter capacitor (>10ufd) on the output of the 78XX device and the manufacturer is warning against this. Typically the reason is when the input power drops below 2VDC above the ouput (power removed) then the device can conduct backwards to ground - if you provide enough current it will probably self destruct. To me it is simple, the manufacturer says don't do it as you will damage the device. That is enough for me. If you want to check the internal die design you can see why this is so. John :-#(# > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 7:23 PM, John Robertson wrote: >> On 04/07/2016 2:18 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>> drlegendre wrote: >>>> Not saying it's going to smoke-out, but it does >>>> seem like a wonky thing to do. >>> I disagree about "wonky" let me try with more >>> diagram and less English: >>> >>> (+8) >>> | >>> VIN| ceramic cap >>> |-----][----- >>> ___|____ | >>> | 7805 |----------GROUND >>> -------- | >>> | | >>> VOUT|(+5) | >>> | | >>> ___|____ | >>> | LOAD |-------| >>> -------- >>> >>> +8 is not currently available (no pun intended). >>> I would like to test LOAD without removing 7805 >>> as it is soldered in place. Is damage to 7805 >>> likely if alternative regulated current is applied >>> at (+5) and (+8) is left open? >>> >>> Bill S. >>> >>> >>> >> Yes, you can damage the 7805 - READ the data sheets... >> >> Raising the Output Voltage above the Input Voltage: >> >> Since the output of the device does not sink current, forcing >> >> LM340/LM78MXX Series 3-Terminal Positive Regulators LM340/LM78MXX Series >> 3-Terminal Positive Regulators >> >> the output high can cause damage to internal low current paths in a manner >> similar to that just described in the ?Short- ing the Regulator Input? >> section. >> >> >> LM340/LM78MXX Series 3-Terminal Positive Regulato John :-#(# From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Apr 8 03:49:18 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 09:49:18 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: ADM 3a with no horizontal scan In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 07 Apr 2016 21:50:58 -0500" <20160408025058.GA27461@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <01PYRLRAA3AG00CZ2Y@beyondthepale.ie> > > I've been on a tear trying to resurrect old projects here, and next on > the list is an ADM 3a. > > This particular 3a has no horizontal scan. None at all. I just get a > vertical line down the center of the screen. First thing I checked was > the horizontal deflector on the yoke, which seems secure. > > Before I go diving into the schematics, I figured I'd ask here: Is > this a common failure mode? Has anyone else experienced no horizontal > scan on a 3a? Any tips on where to look first? > I have an ADM 5 (which might have the same monitor circuit) which did something like this but the vertical line faded out after a while. There was a bad joint on the little driver transformer just ahead of the horizontal output transistor. I guess the joint was managing to make intermittent contact allowing EHT to be generated and the CRT capacitance to be charged up for a while. If your vertical line is not fading out, EHT is being generated which rules out pretty much everthing (unless it's an unusual monitor circuit) except the scan coils (unlikely), connections to the scan coils and any correction components in series with the scan coils. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 07:33:43 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 05:33:43 -0700 Subject: Space Travel (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: <20160408043518.GA32006@Update.UU.SE> References: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com> <20160408043518.GA32006@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 9:35 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Thu, Apr 07, 2016 at 04:08:42PM -0700, Charles Anthony wrote: > > > > I have some code that does an X-11 emulation of the Atari Tempest vector > > graphics display; I'm thinking of wedging it into the simh PDP8 code to > > emulate the 338 and PDP-1 displays. > > > > That woyld be fun :) I could perhaps be used for future PDP-12 > and LINC emulators as well. > > I have read just a little about the 338. I believe it is more or > less a dedicated PDP-8. Can you say how it compares with other > vector displas, such as VC8E? > That is my understanding as well. I haven't actually ever seen any of these beasts; I'm just doing on documentation that I can find, so I am very likely wrong on some points. There is a 338 programming manual at https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_decpdp8gragmgOct66_2439011/DEC-08-G61B-D_338pgmg_Oct66#page/n0/mode/2up with a the display list opcodes. The VC8E programming is discussed at http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/man/vc8e.html. The VC8E has about 8 IO commands, and uses 12 bit coordinates.The commands boil down to set X, set Y and set intensity to 0 or 1. The 338 uses 13bit coordinates; the display has 10 bit resolution. The 338 has scaling, 8 intensity levels, delta move, character ROM, and a 36 page programming manual. There is a description of the VR14/VC8E at http://www.pdp8.net/vr14/vr14info.shtml.; it describes the VC8e as 50K dots per second ont the VR14 monitor, and the 338 as 300K DPS, and mentions that the 338 had a character ROM. http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/spacewar/ built his own VC8/I for his PDP-8 and runs the PDP-8 version of space war on it. He lists the IOT instructions for the VC8/I; they are similar to the 338. -- Charles From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 8 07:42:51 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 13:42:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF Europe, April 30th - May 1st, Munich + registration for VCF Berlin In-Reply-To: <20160406225633.GA2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> References: <20160406225633.GA2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Message-ID: <12538038.30518.1460119371023.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> The Vintage Computing - Berlin (VCFB) is an event for collectors of old computers and calculators. From : stueberahoo at yahoo.de Date : 06/04/2016 - 23:56 (GMTDT) To : cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject : VCF Europe, April 30th - May 1st, Munich + registration for VCF Berlin Hi list, the 17th edition of VCF Europe[0] is coming soon! It will take place on April 30th and May 1st in Munich, Germany. Please be aware that the information on the English version of the website might be outdated or less detailed than on the German page, but Google Translate will help. Also the registration for VCF Berlin[1] in October is open now. We are looking for speakers, workshop instructors and exhibitors, both for the regular exhibition and this year's special exhibition on computers and languages. It will be open for visitors on Sunday, 2nd and Monday, 3rd of October, as the 3rd October is a public holiday in Germany, but we are thinking about inviting people to build up on Friday already and using Saturday, 1st of October as a day just for the participants and the community. This way there would be more time to talk and see the other exhibitions. Maybe we could even offer advanced workshops on Saturday. Come and visit us! Ping me if you need a place to stay. Regards, Anke [0] http://vcfe.org/E/index.html [1] http://vcfb.de/2016/index.html.en From steerex at ccvn.com Fri Apr 8 05:51:22 2016 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 06:51:22 -0400 Subject: Pinging Joe Rigdon In-Reply-To: References: <1460081335.17067.36.camel@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <57078D2A.608@ccvn.com> Yo, When I lived in Florida, I would see Joe several times a year. Since I moved 10 years ago, we have lost contact. His wife Sherry, daughter Amy, and Son Adam, do have facebook profiles. Just do a search for "Rigdon Oviedo" (Florida) and you can find some links to those family members but nothing for Joe. I got a feeling something bad must have happened to Joe :-( > > There is a name I haven?t heard in a *LONG* time. > > Zane > > > -- Steve Robertson steerex at ccvn.com From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Apr 8 09:02:54 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:02:54 +0200 Subject: Space Travel (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com> <20160408043518.GA32006@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20160408140254.GC32006@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Apr 08, 2016 at 05:33:43AM -0700, Charles Anthony wrote: > > http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/spacewar/ built his own VC8/I for his PDP-8 > and runs the PDP-8 version of space war on it. He lists the IOT > instructions for the VC8/I; they are similar to the 338. Ohh, that looks very doable, I already have the Posibus interface. This goes on my neverending TODO-list. /P From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 8 09:41:44 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 14:41:44 +0000 Subject: ADM 3a with no horizontal scan In-Reply-To: <20160408025058.GA27461@loomcom.com> References: <20160408025058.GA27461@loomcom.com> Message-ID: > > This particular 3a has no horizontal scan. None at all. I just get a > vertical line down the center of the screen. First thing I checked was > the horizontal deflector on the yoke, which seems secure. I am going to assume this is a conventional design, I would be very surprised if not. In which case, to get anything on the screen the horizontal output stage must be working, as the CRT electrode voltages come from the flyback transformer. Normally the horizontal deflection yoke is capacitively coupled to the horizontal output stage (often straight off the collector of the transistor). There may be a width control inductor and a horizontal linearity inductor in series too. So it's about 4 components (yoke winding, the 2 inductors, the coupling capacitor) and the interconnections to check. If the coils (yoke and inductors) show DC continuity then most likely they are OK and in any case you would get some deflection. Most likely, actually, is the coupling capacitor. It will be non-polarised (maybe plastic film, maybe a reversable electrolytic) and a fair voltage rating. They do fail... -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 8 09:57:46 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:57:46 -0400 Subject: VCF Europe, April 30th - May 1st, Munich + registration for VCF Berlin In-Reply-To: <12538038.30518.1460119371023.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> References: <20160406225633.GA2629@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <12538038.30518.1460119371023.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> Message-ID: <8DBE7646-051F-4590-97F9-AD66085EFD8E@comcast.net> That's pretty nearly what it says. I'd tweak it as follows. paul > On Apr 8, 2016, at 8:42 AM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > > >> > The Vintage Computing - Berlin (VCFB) is an event for collectors of old computers and calculators. ...an exhibition about historic computers and computation technology. > >> There are exhibits, lectures and workshops to show what the Vintage Computer has to offer and the fun to be had. ...to show the hobby and the fun to be had. > >> Ziel des VCFBs ist es, den Erhalt und die Pflege historischer Computer und >> anderer (E)DV-Ger?tschaften zu f?rdern und das Interesse an "?berfl?ssiger" Hard- und Software zu wecken. >> >> The objective of the VCF-B is to encourage the collection and restoration of old computers and other equipment by those with just a passing interest. ... other IT equipment, and to stimulate interest in "redundant" hardware and software. > >> Unter die Inhalte des VCFBs fallen nicht nur historische Computer, sondern z.B. auch historische Betriebssysteme, Software, Programmiersprachen, Netzwerktechnik und andere Ger?te, die rechnen, wie z.B. historische Taschenrechner und Rechenmaschinen. > Included in the range of items covered by VCF-B are not only old computers but office machines, Software, Programming Languages, Networking and other equipment including pocket and office calculators. ...not only historic computers, but for example also historic operating systems ... From wulfman at wulfman.com Fri Apr 8 10:54:45 2016 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 08:54:45 -0700 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> Message-ID: <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> https://www.fairchildsemi.com/datasheets/LM/LM7805.pdf http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm78l05.pdf ( page 8 gives you the internals for a low power version ) Nothing in the data sheet saying you cant apply voltage to the output. As per the low power version circuit diagram i cant see how you can do any damage to it I was not able to find an internal diagram for the higher power version but i am sure its close to the same circuit just larger pass transistors. I took a new regulator and measured the output pin to ground with my trusty ohmmeter on the diode setting and had no reading. If you think about it the output on the regulator is a pass transistor and the output to ground will be in effect a diode that will not allow current to pass from output to ground. My last comment still stands. i doubt you will cause any ill effects to your regulator. I personally have done this to some old arcade boards with no ill effects. On 4/7/2016 6:08 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > "...if you leave the unregulated rail _unattached_ and put +5 > switcher straight onto the regulated +5 rail..." > > My error, I read that as "attached". > > In any event, just lift both the 7805 IN and OUT pins, and then supply > known-solid +5DC between the OUT and GND pads on the board. > > No, you can't feed the IN pin with +5V, for as others have mentioned, > the 7805 has a minimum dropout of 2V or so. > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:03 PM, William Donzelli > wrote: > >> Per his description, the 7805's input will be open. It will not try to >> source any current, as it will have none to give. >> >> I suppose there might be a little leakage. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:58 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 11:16:45 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 11:16:45 -0500 Subject: Dumb terminals for daily use today; failure scenarios Message-ID: If one were to use a dumb CRT terminal from the early '70s regularly in this day and age, would it be more prone to hardware failure than if it were kept in storage or just kept to look at but powered off? -- Eric Christopherson From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 8 12:19:27 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 17:19:27 +0000 Subject: Dumb terminals for daily use today; failure scenarios In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > If one were to use a dumb CRT terminal from the early '70s regularly in > this day and age, would it be more prone to hardware failure than if it > were kept in storage or just kept to look at but powered off? If you never turn it on, how will you know if the hardware has failed? More seriiously, I suspect the flyback transformer will fail more quickly if it is used. And the CRT will lose emission. BUT.... Even if that happens, the outside appearance will be unchanged. You will still be abe to keep it to look at. And if it is kept unpowered it will fail in the end. So my suggestion is to enjoy it now, fix it while you can, and if the worst happens just look at it. -tony From lists at loomcom.com Fri Apr 8 12:24:49 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 12:24:49 -0500 Subject: ADM 3a with no horizontal scan In-Reply-To: <20160408025058.GA27461@loomcom.com> References: <20160408025058.GA27461@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20160408172449.GA31806@loomcom.com> OK, I made a very interesting discovery today. When I'm working on a project on my workbench, I normally have it plugged into a Variac. This ADM 3a is no exception. I bring up voltage slowly on any unknown old electronics, and then let it sit at our normal wall voltage - which currently reads 121V. Today, for whatever reason, my Variac was turned down to 110V, and I didn't notice. I turned on the ADM 3a, and... it's fine. It beeped, it has a cursor, and scan looks perfect. I turned the Variac slowly up to 121V, and at around 118V the 3a goes nuts and loses horizontal scan, I just get the vertical line. So, some part is really marginal, and I need to figure out which one it is. What fun! -Seth From jrr at flippers.com Fri Apr 8 12:31:39 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:31:39 -0700 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> Message-ID: <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> On 04/08/2016 8:54 AM, wulfman wrote: > https://www.fairchildsemi.com/datasheets/LM/LM7805.pdf > > http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm78l05.pdf ( page 8 gives you the > internals for a low power version ) > > Nothing in the data sheet saying you cant apply voltage to the output. > > As per the low power version circuit diagram i cant see how you can do > any damage to it > I was not able to find an internal diagram for the higher power version but > i am sure its close to the same circuit just larger pass transistors. > > I took a new regulator and measured the output pin to ground with my > trusty ohmmeter > on the diode setting and had no reading. If you think about it the > output on the regulator is a pass transistor > and the output to ground will be in effect a diode that will not allow > current to pass from output to ground. > > > My last comment still stands. i doubt you will cause any ill effects to > your regulator. > > > I personally have done this to some old arcade boards with no ill effects. > > > On 4/7/2016 6:08 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> "...if you leave the unregulated rail _unattached_ and put +5 >> switcher straight onto the regulated +5 rail..." >> >> My error, I read that as "attached". >> >> In any event, just lift both the 7805 IN and OUT pins, and then supply >> known-solid +5DC between the OUT and GND pads on the board. >> >> No, you can't feed the IN pin with +5V, for as others have mentioned, >> the 7805 has a minimum dropout of 2V or so. >> >> On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:03 PM, William Donzelli >> wrote: >> >>> Per his description, the 7805's input will be open. It will not try to >>> source any current, as it will have none to give. >>> >>> I suppose there might be a little leakage. >>> >>> -- >>> Will >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:58 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >>> I archive all data sheets I run across and I found this information on both TI and Fairchild data sheets for the 78H05, LM340 and LM78XX devices - it is usually under a heading called Application Hints and for some reason Fairchild have removed these Hints from the sheets you quote. In ALL cases the manufacturers caution that putting voltage to the output when the input is not powered CAN DAMAGE THE CHIP. The sheets I have appear to be a bit hard to find so here are my archived copies: http://www.flippers.com/pdfs/LM340_LM78XX_National_2003.pdf (page 11) http://www.flippers.com/pdfs/LM78H05A_Fairchild.pdf (page 4) So, yes, you can get away with it for a short time, but you are stressing the regulator outside its design limits and that will shorten its life. John :-#(# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 13:16:17 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 14:16:17 -0400 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> Message-ID: Keep in mind that "not powered" and "open" are very different things. What do the data sheets say? I will admit that this is all careening towards the academic at this point... -- Will On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 1:31 PM, John Robertson wrote: > On 04/08/2016 8:54 AM, wulfman wrote: >> >> https://www.fairchildsemi.com/datasheets/LM/LM7805.pdf >> >> http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm78l05.pdf ( page 8 gives you the >> internals for a low power version ) >> >> Nothing in the data sheet saying you cant apply voltage to the output. >> >> As per the low power version circuit diagram i cant see how you can do >> any damage to it >> I was not able to find an internal diagram for the higher power version >> but >> i am sure its close to the same circuit just larger pass transistors. >> >> I took a new regulator and measured the output pin to ground with my >> trusty ohmmeter >> on the diode setting and had no reading. If you think about it the >> output on the regulator is a pass transistor >> and the output to ground will be in effect a diode that will not allow >> current to pass from output to ground. >> >> >> My last comment still stands. i doubt you will cause any ill effects to >> your regulator. >> >> >> I personally have done this to some old arcade boards with no ill effects. >> >> >> On 4/7/2016 6:08 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >>> >>> "...if you leave the unregulated rail _unattached_ and put +5 >>> switcher straight onto the regulated +5 rail..." >>> >>> My error, I read that as "attached". >>> >>> In any event, just lift both the 7805 IN and OUT pins, and then supply >>> known-solid +5DC between the OUT and GND pads on the board. >>> >>> No, you can't feed the IN pin with +5V, for as others have mentioned, >>> the 7805 has a minimum dropout of 2V or so. >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:03 PM, William Donzelli >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Per his description, the 7805's input will be open. It will not try to >>>> source any current, as it will have none to give. >>>> >>>> I suppose there might be a little leakage. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Will >>>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:58 PM, drlegendre . >>>> wrote: >>>> > I archive all data sheets I run across and I found this information on both > TI and Fairchild data sheets for the 78H05, LM340 and LM78XX devices - it is > usually under a heading called Application Hints and for some reason > Fairchild have removed these Hints from the sheets you quote. > > In ALL cases the manufacturers caution that putting voltage to the output > when the input is not powered CAN DAMAGE THE CHIP. > > The sheets I have appear to be a bit hard to find so here are my archived > copies: > > http://www.flippers.com/pdfs/LM340_LM78XX_National_2003.pdf (page 11) > > http://www.flippers.com/pdfs/LM78H05A_Fairchild.pdf (page 4) > > So, yes, you can get away with it for a short time, but you are stressing > the regulator outside its design limits and that will shorten its life. > > John :-#(# > > -- > John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 > Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) > www.flippers.com > "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Apr 8 13:18:14 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 14:18:14 -0400 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> Message-ID: <18d301d191c3$04edd240$0ec976c0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> First, a few quick "whys": 1) The 7805 is actually a Motorola MC7805CP, date code 7308 with gold leads. Very hard to exactly replace. 2) As per the design of the unit, the 7805 is soldered to the foil side of a single sided, copper clad circuit board with no through hole plating. Lifting the traces seems like a significant possibility that I don't want to risk. 3) I'm still waiting for the components to build the 8 volt power supply. Hopefully they will arrive Monday. 4) No, one thing missing from my bench, that I've never really needed up to now, is a good adjustable DC supply. My have to ask for one for Christmas. Three thoughts have come to me since my original post. 1) I have a 12 volt DC supply. 12 volts seems to be within the VIN range for the 7805s whose data sheets I've now read. Can I simply apply 12 volts? 2) Could I place a resistor in series between the 12V supply and the 7805 to drop the voltage at the 7805 to somewhere around 8? 3) If I was to "tack on" a jumper between VIN and VOUT, would that protect the 7805 and allow me to power the circuit with 5 volts? Thank You, Bill S. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 8 13:27:05 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 14:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> Message-ID: <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I archive all data sheets I run across and I found this information > on both TI and Fairchild data sheets for the 78H05, LM340 and LM78XX > devices - it is usually under a heading called Application Hints and > for some reason Fairchild have removed these Hints from the sheets > you quote. > In ALL cases the manufacturers caution that putting voltage to the > output when the input is not powered CAN DAMAGE THE CHIP. I have the datasheet PDF for the On Semiconductor version, and I have been unable to find anything of the sort in it. Whether On was sloppy when writing their documetnation or whether some manufacturer's devices are safe or whether I just missed something, I don't know. But, when dealing with a device of unknown provenance, it does seem clear you're better off not powering the output side if the input side has a low-impedance path to ground. (Powering the output with the input disconnected appears to be a completely different thing; I have trouble imagining a design that would be damaged by that.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 8 13:33:25 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 14:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ADM 3a with no horizontal scan In-Reply-To: <20160408172449.GA31806@loomcom.com> References: <20160408025058.GA27461@loomcom.com> <20160408172449.GA31806@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <201604081833.OAA13984@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Today, for whatever reason, my Variac was turned down to 110V, and I > didn't notice. I turned on the ADM 3a, and... it's fine. [...] Fascinating! I have trouble imagining what sort of fault could cause those symptoms. I would have agreed with whoever (tony, I think) said that if you have HV then the horizontal scan is almost certainly operating in some sense, but this makes me doubt that. I have trouble coming up with a failure mode in that design that could kill the horizontal scan but not the HV based on the power supply input voltage, so there is probably something very unusual in there. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 13:42:44 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 14:42:44 -0400 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <5707f5fd.e80c6b0a.b80ad.ffffaf53SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <5707f5fd.e80c6b0a.b80ad.ffffaf53SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: > 1) The 7805 is actually a Motorola MC7805CP, date > code 7308 with gold leads. Very hard to exactly > replace. Is that the big flat plastic package with the wide flat leads? I might have a few of those around, but I agree, not an easy variant to find. > 1) I have a 12 volt DC supply. 12 volts seems to be > within the VIN range for the 7805s whose data > sheets I've now read. Can I simply apply 12 volts? Yes, but that regulator might get mighty hot! I would not do this for fear of cooking the poor thing. > 2) Could I place a resistor in series between the 12V > supply and the 7805 to drop the voltage at the 7805 > to somewhere around 8? Yes, you could do this. Pick an appropriate power resistor, or use a big wirewound rheostat. > 3) If I was to "tack on" a jumper between VIN and VOUT, > would that protect the 7805 and allow me to power the > circuit with 5 volts? I would not do this at all. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 8 13:48:21 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 11:48:21 -0700 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5707FCF5.6000502@sydex.com> Silly question, but then I'm feeling silly today: Why not just connect the output and input of the 7805 together and power from the normal +8 line with your +5 supply? --Chuck From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Apr 8 13:50:26 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 14:50:26 -0400 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <5707f5fd.e80c6b0a.b80ad.ffffaf53SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <18e301d191c7$83fa6680$8bef3380$@sudbrink@verizon.net> William Donzelli wrote: > > 1) The 7805 is actually a Motorola MC7805CP, date > > code 7308 with gold leads. Very hard to exactly > > replace. > > Is that the big flat plastic package with the wide > flat leads? Nope, purple ceramic. The heat transfer plate is gold plated too. > > 1) I have a 12 volt DC supply. 12 volts seems to be > > within the VIN range for the 7805s whose data > > sheets I've now read. Can I simply apply 12 volts? > > Yes, but that regulator might get mighty hot! I would > not do this for fear of cooking the poor thing. That's what I figured to start with, before reading the datasheets. > > 2) Could I place a resistor in series between the 12V > > supply and the 7805 to drop the voltage at the 7805 > > to somewhere around 8? > > Yes, you could do this. Pick an appropriate power resistor, > or use a big wirewound rheostat. At this point, I think I'll just wait till Monday and work on other things. > > 3) If I was to "tack on" a jumper between VIN and VOUT, > > would that protect the 7805 and allow me to power the > > circuit with 5 volts? > > I would not do this at all. I didn't think so. Bill From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Apr 8 13:58:27 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 14:58:27 -0400 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <5707FCF5.6000502@sydex.com> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5707FCF5.6000502@sydex.com> Message-ID: <18e401d191c8$a3600240$ea2006c0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> I don't know why I bothering to be coy about it... My unit here: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4060005.JPG http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4060006.JPG Actually, I'm further along than that, but I don't have more recent photos. Original unit here: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Feb1975/PE_Feb_1975_pg30.jpg Schematic here: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Feb1975/PE_Feb_1975_pg28.jpg Bill From lists at loomcom.com Fri Apr 8 13:59:58 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 13:59:58 -0500 Subject: ADM 3a with no horizontal scan In-Reply-To: <201604081833.OAA13984@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20160408025058.GA27461@loomcom.com> <20160408172449.GA31806@loomcom.com> <201604081833.OAA13984@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160408185957.GA3977@loomcom.com> * On Fri, Apr 08, 2016 at 02:33:25PM -0400, Mouse wrote: > > Today, for whatever reason, my Variac was turned down to 110V, and I > > didn't notice. I turned on the ADM 3a, and... it's fine. [...] > > Fascinating! > > I have trouble imagining what sort of fault could cause those symptoms. > I would have agreed with whoever (tony, I think) said that if you have > HV then the horizontal scan is almost certainly operating in some > sense, but this makes me doubt that. I have trouble coming up with a > failure mode in that design that could kill the horizontal scan but not > the HV based on the power supply input voltage, so there is probably > something very unusual in there. It IS odd. One more observation: Two of the three +5V regulators cut out when their input voltage exceeds about 11.5V. The input voltage comes from a 9.4VAC winding on the primary transformer. Input ripple is VERY low, maybe 200mV. So, I suspect those regulators need to be replaced. I'm sure it needs to be recapped, too, so I'll do that before I investigate too much furtther. -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From t.gardner at computer.org Fri Apr 8 14:11:04 2016 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 12:11:04 -0700 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <570745B7.6060904@sydex.com> References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> <017901d19154$761e1b60$625a5220$@computer.org> <570745B7.6060904@sydex.com> Message-ID: <000f01d191ca$65ef7bf0$31ce73d0$@computer.org> Sorry, to a EE they are all epoxies, but: "BINDER: A polymer such as polyester-polyurethane used to bind magnetic particles together and adhere them to the base film in the manufacturing of magnetic media." http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/Magnetic_Media_Terminology.pdf "Polyester polyurethane is the workhorse of polyurethane films. It offers excellent strength and long-term stability" http://www.apiusa.com/polyesterpolyure.html I think properly cured all binders used are pretty stable. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2016 10:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Why do good floppy disks go bad? On 04/07/2016 10:06 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: > And it's not likely the binder, fully cured epoxies are also very > stable. Note disks do not have the tension problem that tape has. There, I have to respectfully disagree. Floppy disks do not use an epoxy binder, but usually a polyurethane-based one. (Most are proprietary formulations). Hard disk coatings usually use an epoxy-phenolic binder, but they're not on a flexible substrate. Polyurethane isn't forever and tends to be somewhat hygroscopic. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 8 14:13:20 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <24B7CCA8-D5F4-4147-8669-F9A4E0651CB4@comcast.net> References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> <2BD94440-A3E4-4572-AD99-D66421304F29@comcast.net> <24B7CCA8-D5F4-4147-8669-F9A4E0651CB4@comcast.net> Message-ID: <201604081913.PAA22056@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Entropy: Could the rust on the cookie be de-oxidizing, and turning back int$ > No. If that were true, iron ore would spontaneously turn into iron. Unfort$ Anyone keep their floppies in a hydrogen (or, more generally, reducing) atmosphere? (Cue xkcd #1426. :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 8 14:12:50 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:12:50 -0400 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <000f01d191ca$65ef7bf0$31ce73d0$@computer.org> References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> <017901d19154$761e1b60$625a5220$@computer.org> <570745B7.6060904@sydex.com> <000f01d191ca$65ef7bf0$31ce73d0$@computer.org> Message-ID: > On Apr 8, 2016, at 3:11 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: > > Sorry, to a EE they are all epoxies, but: > > "BINDER: A polymer such as polyester-polyurethane used to bind magnetic > particles together and adhere them to the base film in the manufacturing of > magnetic media." > http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/Magnetic_Media_Terminology.pdf > > "Polyester polyurethane is the workhorse of polyurethane films. It offers > excellent strength and long-term stability" > http://www.apiusa.com/polyesterpolyure.html > > I think properly cured all binders used are pretty stable. That may be, but if so, there are some big name vendors who do not know "properly". paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 8 14:37:31 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 19:37:31 +0000 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <18d301d191c3$04edd240$0ec976c0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com>, <18d301d191c3$04edd240$0ec976c0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: > > First, a few quick "whys": > > 1) The 7805 is actually a Motorola MC7805CP, date > code 7308 with gold leads. Very hard to exactly > replace. Any reason why it would have to be an exact replacement? In any case, the behaviour of the 7805 if you apply a voltage to the output with the input floating may well depend on the manufacturer and even the date (some devices were improved over the years). Unless you have a 1973-or-so data sheet from Motorola, I don't think you know whether it will be damaged or not. [...] > 1) I have a 12 volt DC supply. 12 volts seems to be > within the VIN range for the 7805s whose data > sheets I've now read. Can I simply apply 12 volts? Yes, but... The power disipated in the 7805 will increase, in fact it will be more than doubled. To put it crudely, a linear regulator acts like an automatic variable resistor. I have no idea what current the load takes, let's call it I. If you supply 8V, then the power disipated in the 7805 is 3*I watts, if you supply 12V it's 7*I. This may or may not be a problem. > 2) Could I place a resistor in series between the 12V > supply and the 7805 to drop the voltage at the 7805 > to somewhere around 8? Yes. You need to know the maximum current the load will draw, which will be much the same as the current drawn from the PSU. Then just calculate the resistor to drop 4V at that current. If you can find one, you could probably use a 7808 to supply 8V to the unit from a 12V supply. Or a 7805 'jacked up' with a 3.3V zener diode (in series with the common lead to the extra 7805 only). My guess is that giving it 12V will be fine though. What is the device, and do you have any idea how much current it is going to draw? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 8 14:43:48 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 12:43:48 -0700 Subject: Why do good floppy disks go bad? In-Reply-To: <000f01d191ca$65ef7bf0$31ce73d0$@computer.org> References: <57057D09.6000305@sydex.com> <017901d19154$761e1b60$625a5220$@computer.org> <570745B7.6060904@sydex.com> <000f01d191ca$65ef7bf0$31ce73d0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <570809F4.9020401@sydex.com> On 04/08/2016 12:11 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: > Sorry, to a EE they are all epoxies, but: Gorilla glue is an epoxy? News to me. Polyurethane is far from stable over the long term and exhibits hygroscopic properties: For example, vide: http://www.ptonline.com/knowledgecenter/Plastics-Drying/Resin-Types/Hygroscopic-VS-Non-Hygroscopic-Resins ...and many others. Floppy and tape binder also is somewhat of a witches' brew as it usually includes a fatty acid or some other substance for lubrication. As far as "stability", that's subjective. Most plastics will eventually degrade; some are worse than others. There's a big problem in the museum archiving business that not much, other than freezing seems to retard eventual decomposition of plastics. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 8 14:42:50 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 19:42:50 +0000 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <18e301d191c7$83fa6680$8bef3380$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <5707f5fd.e80c6b0a.b80ad.ffffaf53SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> , <18e301d191c7$83fa6680$8bef3380$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: > > > 1) I have a 12 volt DC supply. 12 volts seems to be > > > within the VIN range for the 7805s whose data > > > sheets I've now read. Can I simply apply 12 volts? > > > > Yes, but that regulator might get mighty hot! I would > > not do this for fear of cooking the poor thing. > > That's what I figured to start with, before reading the > datasheets. If as your photos (in another message) suggest it will run OK from 8V with no heatsink on the 7805, then I would be pretty sure it will be OK at 12V if you bolt a reasonable heatsink to the regulator. Give it a smear of silicone grease, of course. -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 8 16:19:14 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 17:19:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A tale of a chip and a socket Message-ID: <20160408211914.6E02118C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I just had the incredibly amusing experience of managing to repair an -11/04 CPU by un-soldering a chip, putting in a socket, and putting _the same chip_ back in that socket! Before you go 'WTF?!?!', let me explain what happened. The CPU wouldn't run, and in poking around, I stumbled on the cause: all the registers would not 'take' 1's in the 0360 bits. Hmm, 4 contiguous bits - sounds like it might be a bad register file chip. But before I pulled it, I wanted to make sure it wasn't some other part of the data path - Mux, ALU, etc. So I put a DIP clip on the chip, whipped up a 3-instruction 'scope loop that would exercise it, and... while I was looking at it, the problem went away! WTF? So I pull the clip - and the problem comes back. Repeat. Clearly there's a bad connection in the chip, and the pressure of the clip is 'fixing' it. So I pull the chip, put in a socket (I always use sockets on repairs, I'm paranoid I'll overheat the parts - I don't mind living with an potential eventual bad contact from corrosion), and figure what the heck, let me see if fiddling with it fixed the bad connection - and sure enough, it now seems to work! And if it eventually fails, no problem - it's in a socket, I know where to go if the machine stops working, those P3101A's are rare and expensive, etc! :-) Noel From sales at elecplus.com Fri Apr 8 16:35:15 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:35:15 -0500 Subject: really old test equip Message-ID: <002301d191de$8a8f7640$9fae62c0$@com> When I was at the recycler last week, I saw a lot of really OLD test equipment. I started looking through it to see if there were things I could recognize, but the closest thing I could figure out was a 1940s telephone equipment tester. All of these were portable, with lids that closed with latches. Probably weighed abt 20-30 pounds each. Any cables that might have been needed to run the equipment was gone. If things like this are of interest in the $25 range, then I can pick some up next time I see them. Unfortunately I have no cell phone numbers for anyone in the DFW area to tell them to come and see the goodies while I am there, and they will not let strangers come in and poke around. I am (or was) an electronics tech, but most of the functions on these old test machines eluded me. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From scaron at diablonet.net Fri Apr 8 16:41:45 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 17:41:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: really old test equip In-Reply-To: <002301d191de$8a8f7640$9fae62c0$@com> References: <002301d191de$8a8f7640$9fae62c0$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Apr 2016, Cindy Croxton wrote: > When I was at the recycler last week, I saw a lot of really OLD test > equipment. I started looking through it to see if there were things I could > recognize, but the closest thing I could figure out was a 1940s telephone > equipment tester. All of these were portable, with lids that closed with > latches. Probably weighed abt 20-30 pounds each. Any cables that might have > been needed to run the equipment was gone. If things like this are of > interest in the $25 range, then I can pick some up next time I see them. > Unfortunately I have no cell phone numbers for anyone in the DFW area to > tell them to come and see the goodies while I am there, and they will not > let strangers come in and poke around. I am (or was) an electronics tech, > but most of the functions on these old test machines eluded me. > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > Hi Cindy, Did you happen to catch the manufacturer on any of it? They sound a bit like trunk test sets ... I'm all covered myself, but I know of another list where folks might be interested, especially if they do SF signalling. Best, Sean From sales at elecplus.com Fri Apr 8 16:56:58 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:56:58 -0500 Subject: really old test equip In-Reply-To: References: <002301d191de$8a8f7640$9fae62c0$@com> Message-ID: <002e01d191e1$92f03560$b8d0a020$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean Caron Sent: Friday, April 08, 2016 4:42 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: really old test equip On Fri, 8 Apr 2016, Cindy Croxton wrote: > When I was at the recycler last week, I saw a lot of really OLD test > equipment. > Hi Cindy, Did you happen to catch the manufacturer on any of it? They sound a bit like trunk test sets ... I'm all covered myself, but I know of another list where folks might be interested, especially if they do SF signalling. Best, Sean No sorry, I do not recall the manufacturer. Most of the boxes had grey pattern bases with black lids, but a few were brown pattern boxes with dark brown lids. Not very helpful, I know. I should have taken some pics! Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 8 17:11:58 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:11:58 -0700 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <953907E7-BCDB-4DB8-BB73-D4CE60C793AE@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Apr-08, at 11:27 AM, Mouse wrote: >> I archive all data sheets I run across and I found this information >> on both TI and Fairchild data sheets for the 78H05, LM340 and LM78XX >> devices - it is usually under a heading called Application Hints and >> for some reason Fairchild have removed these Hints from the sheets >> you quote. > >> In ALL cases the manufacturers caution that putting voltage to the >> output when the input is not powered CAN DAMAGE THE CHIP. > > I have the datasheet PDF for the On Semiconductor version, and I have > been unable to find anything of the sort in it. http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm340-n.pdf page 11 I suspect it would be OK if VIN and VOUT were shorted during the procedure (and VIN was otherwise open or has just a small cap to gnd) as that likely takes care of reverse current and reverse bias situations being set up on internal junctions, but one doesn't know for sure unless you examine the internal schematic adequately or test the device. From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Apr 8 17:26:59 2016 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 00:26:59 +0200 Subject: Shipping big things across the atlantic. In-Reply-To: <20160401094832.GB9024@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160401094832.GB9024@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <57083033.4020703@update.uu.se> Thanks everyone who replied. The seller stopped communicating with me so this time it's a no-go. But I'm sure there will be a next time :) /P On 04/01/2016 11:48 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi. > > I'm considering to ship an empty full height rack from the USA to Sweden. It is > definitely something I wont find here so it might be worth the cost and effort. > > What are my options to get it here safely? If you have any experience I would > greatly appreciate if you could share them. > > Thanks in advance, > Pontus. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 8 18:31:27 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:31:27 -0700 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <18e401d191c8$a3600240$ea2006c0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5707FCF5.6000502@sydex.com> <18e401d191c8$a3600240$ea2006c0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 2016-Apr-08, at 11:58 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I don't know why I bothering to be coy about it... > > My unit here: > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4060005.JPG > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4060006.JPG > > Actually, I'm further along than that, but I > don't have more recent photos. > > Original unit here: > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Feb1975/PE_Feb_1975_pg30.jpg > > Schematic here: > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Feb1975/PE_Feb_1975_pg28.jpg Well that's neat. I assembled the Cromemco kit version of the Cyclops ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromemco_Cyclops ) ca. 1976 for a friend with an IMSAI, and built the companion adapter to provide display on an oscilloscope, but I don't know that it was ever made to work. (The kit version presented an interface for a computer rather than the scope drive of the magazine article. Hopefully you're more successful with your unit. (I think you'll find the MC7805 there is indeed plastic not ceramic. Moto produced various power transistors and regulators in those packages (case 90 in Moto parlance) as well as a smaller version from the same plastic material) A 9V wall wart would probably do for the power supply, or remove the regulator and use a modern 5V switching wall wart (not that I wish to promote wall warts, but if they're on hand . . ) From scaron at diablonet.net Fri Apr 8 20:00:05 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 21:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: really old test equip In-Reply-To: <002e01d191e1$92f03560$b8d0a020$@com> References: <002301d191de$8a8f7640$9fae62c0$@com> <002e01d191e1$92f03560$b8d0a020$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Apr 2016, Cindy Croxton wrote: > > No sorry, I do not recall the manufacturer. Most of the boxes had grey > pattern bases with black lids, but a few were brown pattern boxes with dark > brown lids. Not very helpful, I know. I should have taken some pics! > > Cindy > Hi Cindy, Actually somewhat helpful ;) We can probably rule out that they are Berry test sets ... those usually came in blue ... there were a few other third party vendors of trunk and station test sets ... names eluding me ... in addition to Western Electric itself. If the units are a "battleship gray" sort of color, that could suggest (though not guarantee) WECo manufacture. Given a bit more identifying information or a picture, I'd be happy to pass this along to a few phone collector lists that I'm on ... depending on what it is and what it costs, there's a chance some people there could be interested. Best, Sean From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Apr 8 22:47:40 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 20:47:40 -0700 Subject: ADM 3a with no horizontal scan In-Reply-To: <20160408185957.GA3977@loomcom.com> References: <20160408025058.GA27461@loomcom.com> <20160408172449.GA31806@loomcom.com> <201604081833.OAA13984@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160408185957.GA3977@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <4A7B3394-FC7D-4D81-A6BD-3F186D12E0B3@nf6x.net> > On Apr 8, 2016, at 11:59, Seth Morabito wrote: > One more observation: Two of the three +5V regulators cut out > when their input voltage exceeds about 11.5V. The input voltage > comes from a 9.4VAC winding on the primary transformer. Input ripple > is VERY low, maybe 200mV. So, I suspect those regulators need to be > replaced. Could they be going into thermal shutdown? I don't recall whether linear regulators from that era commonly had thermal shutdown features yet. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From tingox at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 06:57:42 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 13:57:42 +0200 Subject: A tale of a chip and a socket In-Reply-To: <20160408211914.6E02118C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160408211914.6E02118C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:19 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So I just had the incredibly amusing experience of managing to repair an > -11/04 CPU by un-soldering a chip, putting in a socket, and putting _the same > chip_ back in that socket! > > Before you go 'WTF?!?!', let me explain what happened. Most likely a bad solder joint. Happens from time to time on 30 years+ old equipment. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From cctalk.pkoch at dfgh.net Sat Apr 9 04:00:53 2016 From: cctalk.pkoch at dfgh.net (cctalk.pkoch at dfgh.net) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 11:00:53 +0200 Subject: Stuff searching for new home around Duesseldorf, germany Message-ID: Hi all, we have been using two Sun 6800 (each fully equipped with 96GB of RAM and 24 Sparc III processors 1.2GHz) for many years. Now they are retired and must leave our machine room to make place for newer machines. Anybody out there willing to give them a new home? They are very good in transforming electric energy into heat. And by activating only some of the processor boards you can regulate the heat flow. Your wife will love to stand behind it and use it as a whole-body blow-dryer. Take one for free and you will get another one for no additional costs. While rearranging our machine room, we found lots of other stuff that must go away too. Here's the current list: - Sun E250 - Sun A5200, 2xA5100, D1000 with lots of disks - Sun E450, 2x, one is still needed for a couple of months - Sun L1000, 3x, one is still needed for a couple of months - Sun 6800, 2 fully equipped and a third one for spare parts - Sun 880 with 12 disks - Sun 480 2x, with spare processor boards - Sun L11000 tape library (aka ATL P3000) with 6 drives and lots of tapes Be warned: You need a truck with lift to transport a Sun 6800. It's 191x130x61cm and weights approx 500kg. Same thing with the tape library: 192x72x145cm, approx. 600kg. On the other hand rumours are that kids do place stuff like this into their parents basement :-) I took some pictures and uploaded then to http://flic.kr/s/aHskuakSMT Peter From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Apr 9 07:29:14 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 08:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A tale of a chip and a socket Message-ID: <20160409122914.434C518C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Torfinn Ingolfsen > Most likely a bad solder joint. That was my first thought, and so I carefully inspected all the pins, but they all looked good to me. But I suppose it might have been something that wasn't visually obvious. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Apr 9 08:43:09 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Stuff searching for new home around Duesseldorf, germany Message-ID: <20160409134309.EF66C18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Peter Koch > rumours are that kids do place stuff like this into their parents > basement :-) I've even heard rumours of parents placing stuff like this into their kids basements! (I certainly have some PDP-11's in my daughter's old bedroom! :-) Noel From jrr at flippers.com Sat Apr 9 09:42:46 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 07:42:46 -0700 Subject: A tale of a chip and a socket In-Reply-To: <20160409122914.434C518C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160409122914.434C518C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <570914E6.9030401@flippers.com> On 04/09/2016 5:29 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Torfinn Ingolfsen > > > Most likely a bad solder joint. > > That was my first thought, and so I carefully inspected all the pins, but > they all looked good to me. But I suppose it might have been something that > wasn't visually obvious. > > Noel > If you suspect solder try simply reheating the legs of the suspect chip to see if that cures it. It could also be that the chip is drifting out of tolerance and the clip you put on it added enough extra capacitance (we're talking picofarads here) that it was happy again. The IC socket may add just enough capacitance again to help the chip get back into its operation band. Has anyone else got a similar board and that particular chip has a very small value cap on one or more of its legs? I see this on my 1970s video game boards from time to time - a board from the factory would have an added cap on one chip that isn't shown on the schematics or in my meagre collection of service bulletins for that game. The job was obviously factory as the connection is as clean as all the other connections on the board. Data books don't talk much about this bypass caps issue either, I believe it is part of the 'magic smoke' of TTL logic... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Apr 9 10:28:17 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 15:28:17 +0000 Subject: ADM 3a with no horizontal scan In-Reply-To: <4A7B3394-FC7D-4D81-A6BD-3F186D12E0B3@nf6x.net> References: <20160408025058.GA27461@loomcom.com> <20160408172449.GA31806@loomcom.com> <201604081833.OAA13984@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160408185957.GA3977@loomcom.com>, <4A7B3394-FC7D-4D81-A6BD-3F186D12E0B3@nf6x.net> Message-ID: Try renewing the thermal compound. Also, look for any really hot components on the 5V lines. Tantalums don't always smoke. A lot of older circuits also used a shunt resistor across the regulator to share part of the load. These were usually the square wire wound resisters. These often fail because of internal corrosion. When open the regulators carry the full load. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Apr 9 10:55:53 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 15:55:53 +0000 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5707FCF5.6000502@sydex.com> <18e401d191c8$a3600240$ea2006c0$@sudbrink@verizon.net>, Message-ID: Bill, surely you have a pile of 1N400x diodes someplace. Put 6 in series, forward, between the input and supply. That should ensure it is safe. If the voltage is higher than 8 volts, it would mean there isn't enough current to worry about. Dwight From ian.finder at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 13:14:12 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:14:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: In search of VAX 8550 or similar... Message-ID: <56A0153D66EF8B17.FA2637A0-219B-44D0-B2FE-8A968438799D@mail.outlook.com> Would like to purchase and restore a big mid-80s VAX. Stupidly passed one up recently. Let me know if you have one you'd be willing to part with- also open to trades. In the Seattle area, but a little too comfortable with arranging freight shipping... Sent from Outlook for iPhone From lists at loomcom.com Sat Apr 9 15:21:58 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 15:21:58 -0500 Subject: ADM 3a with no horizontal scan In-Reply-To: <20160408185957.GA3977@loomcom.com> References: <20160408025058.GA27461@loomcom.com> <20160408172449.GA31806@loomcom.com> <201604081833.OAA13984@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160408185957.GA3977@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20160409202158.GA13056@loomcom.com> Well, since it was such an easy job, I took a chance and replaced the two suspicious 7805 voltage regulators. The terminal works just fine now! http://imgur.com/a/wharu I'm fairly surprised that the 7805 regulators died, and that they present this symptom (no horizontal scan) upon their death. I'm sure there are other marginal components that will need to be replaced, so the restoration is not yet complete until I'm confident I'm not stressing the new 7805s too much. -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 9 16:51:15 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 14:51:15 -0700 Subject: ADM 3a with no horizontal scan In-Reply-To: <20160409202158.GA13056@loomcom.com> References: <20160408025058.GA27461@loomcom.com> <20160408172449.GA31806@loomcom.com> <201604081833.OAA13984@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160408185957.GA3977@loomcom.com> <20160409202158.GA13056@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <57097953.1000606@sydex.com> On 04/09/2016 01:21 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > I'm fairly surprised that the 7805 regulators died, and that they > present this symptom (no horizontal scan) upon their death. I'm sure > there are other marginal components that will need to be replaced, > so the restoration is not yet complete until I'm confident I'm not > stressing the new 7805s too much. Good job! You might check to see how much current and the input voltage of the 7805 is being fed. Too high a current or input voltage can cause the regulator to run hot. There are some remedies for that, such as replacing the regulator with a "simple switcher" type regulator module. --Chuck From pete at petelancashire.com Sat Apr 9 13:45:15 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 11:45:15 -0700 Subject: Stuff searching for new home around Duesseldorf, germany In-Reply-To: <20160409134309.EF66C18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160409134309.EF66C18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I have a 3800 for free, Its in Portland Oregon USA. May take a couple months to get all the parts together but it was complete around 10 years ago was said to have one of the proc. drawers dead. Anyone interested email me. -pete On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 6:43 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Peter Koch > > > rumours are that kids do place stuff like this into their parents > > basement :-) > > I've even heard rumours of parents placing stuff like this into their kids > basements! > > (I certainly have some PDP-11's in my daughter's old bedroom! :-) > > Noel > > From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 15:12:51 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 15:12:51 -0500 Subject: DEC LPS11 Laboratory Peripheral System for PDP-11 Message-ID: <20160409201250.GB30859@gmail.com> I saw a DEC LPS11 Laboratory Peripheral System for PDP-11 somewhere and was thinking of getting it just because of the Digital nameplate, but I was too broke. Now I see that an ebay listing[1] of it has the ambitious Buy It Now price of $1600 -- but that's with cabling and a book of schematics, and they've tested it out at least a bit; and it has analog in and out, and several specific boards in it. The one I found, on the other hand, is untested and doesn't have any external goodies; it does seem to be populated with boards, but I don't know what they are. It also seems to be lacking any analog in or out (unless the "DISPLAY" port is an analog out). I'm wondering if there would be a demand for this item. If so, I may have to send someone to pick it up for me when the place is open next. [1]: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-LPS11-Laboratory-Peripheral-System-for-PDP-11-Analog-Digital-I-O-Ultra-Rare-/291440856658?hash=item43db3a8e52:g:KRYAAOSwDk5TzrBt -- Eric Christopherson From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat Apr 9 21:19:18 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 22:19:18 -0400 Subject: H-11 Updates Message-ID: <045FC032-2868-42B6-BAC7-1CC4E291F0F4@verizon.net> All ? It?s been a productive two weeks with my pseudo-DEC Heath H-11. I got myself an Emulex UC07 SCSI card and a SCSI2SD SCSI drive emulator. After a week of noodling around with why the on-board diagnostics wouldn?t load (stupid LTC jumper) I was able to confirm that the board and SCSI2SD setup worked. Tonight I built an RD54 image of RT-11 v5.7 using SIMH and dd?ed it to the card and now I have RT-11 5.7 running over SCSI. Yea! Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Apr 9 22:07:21 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 23:07:21 -0400 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5707FCF5.6000502@sydex.com> <18e401d191c8$a3600240$ea2006c0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1a3701d192d6$196ebf40$4c4c3dc0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Well that's neat. Thanks. > I assembled the Cromemco kit version of the Cyclops > (The kit version presented an interface for a computer > rather than the scope drive of the magazine article. I was recently able to acquire the S-100 interface cards for the Cyclops. I'm hoping to take that step sometime this summer. > Hopefully you're more successful with your unit. Thanks. > (I think you'll find the MC7805 there is indeed plastic > not ceramic. Moto produced various power transistors > and regulators in those packages (case 90 in Moto parlance) > as well as a smaller version from the same plastic material) I think you're right. It is odd, not plastic like any IC I've ever seen. And it does have a purplish cast to it. > A 9V wall wart would probably do for the power supply I was worried about the "pseudo-DC" that most wall warts provide. > or remove the regulator At this point, I'm about to build the "real" supply anyway... Here are a few more recent photos: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4070001.JPG http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4090001-2.JPG http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4090009-2.JPG Bill S. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 9 22:56:54 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:56:54 -0700 Subject: H-11 Updates In-Reply-To: <045FC032-2868-42B6-BAC7-1CC4E291F0F4@verizon.net> References: <045FC032-2868-42B6-BAC7-1CC4E291F0F4@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3AD2681D-852F-43FA-A830-C97D00A29E2A@aracnet.com> > On Apr 9, 2016, at 7:19 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > > All ? > > It?s been a productive two weeks with my pseudo-DEC Heath H-11. I got myself an Emulex UC07 SCSI card and a SCSI2SD SCSI drive emulator. After a week of noodling around with why the on-board diagnostics wouldn?t load (stupid LTC jumper) I was able to confirm that the board and SCSI2SD setup worked. Tonight I built an RD54 image of RT-11 v5.7 using SIMH and dd?ed it to the card and now I have RT-11 5.7 running over SCSI. Yea! > > Rich Nice, somehow a SCSI2SD card sounds like a nice upgrade for several of my systems, but especially my PDP-11/73. Zane From useddec at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 01:44:31 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 01:44:31 -0500 Subject: DEC LPS11 Laboratory Peripheral System for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20160409201250.GB30859@gmail.com> References: <20160409201250.GB30859@gmail.com> Message-ID: that's a very nice looking unit, and the docs are a big plus. I can't speak as to the price, but it looks nicer than the 2 I have. I'll have to look for my docs. Paul On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 3:12 PM, Eric Christopherson < echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > I saw a DEC LPS11 Laboratory Peripheral System for PDP-11 somewhere and > was thinking of getting it just because of the Digital nameplate, but I > was too broke. Now I see that an ebay listing[1] of it has the ambitious > Buy It Now price of $1600 -- but that's with cabling and a book of > schematics, and they've tested it out at least a bit; and it has analog > in and out, and several specific boards in it. > > The one I found, on the other hand, is untested and doesn't have any > external goodies; it does seem to be populated with boards, but I don't > know what they are. It also seems to be lacking any analog in or out > (unless the "DISPLAY" port is an analog out). I'm wondering if there > would be a demand for this item. If so, I may have to send someone to > pick it up for me when the place is open next. > > [1]: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-LPS11-Laboratory-Peripheral-System-for-PDP-11-Analog-Digital-I-O-Ultra-Rare-/291440856658?hash=item43db3a8e52:g:KRYAAOSwDk5TzrBt > > -- > Eric Christopherson > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Apr 10 02:28:18 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 00:28:18 -0700 Subject: websites on the classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <003e01cffa00$a1eef5d0$e5cce170$@classiccmp.org> References: <003e01cffa00$a1eef5d0$e5cce170$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001d192fa$8e8141d0$ab83c570$@net> Jay, I was wondering if it would be possible to rename my web site on the classiccmp server from megacube.classiccmp.org to ibm51xx.classiccmp.org? If it is too much trouble don't worry about it. Otherwise I'd appreciate it very much. Thank you. Ali From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun Apr 10 09:53:33 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 10:53:33 -0400 Subject: IBM/PC XT and AT boot disks needed Message-ID: All ? I?m helping a buddy of mine restore an original XT and original AT and I?m looking for original boot disks for them. I have the AT Diagnostics disk but the other disks I have seem to be bad. Does anyone have images that they could send me or point me to an archive of original disks? Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Apr 10 10:20:29 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 08:20:29 -0700 Subject: IBM/PC XT and AT boot disks needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001a01d1933c$85112830$8f337890$@net> Rich, Checkout http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/index.htm. -Ali > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > Richard Cini > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 7:54 AM > To: CCTalk > Subject: IBM/PC XT and AT boot disks needed > > All - > > I'm helping a buddy of mine restore an original XT and original AT and > I'm looking for original boot disks for them. I have the AT Diagnostics > disk but the other disks I have seem to be bad. Does anyone have images > that they could send me or point me to an archive of original disks? > Thanks! > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > http://www.classiccmp.org/cini > http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun Apr 10 10:37:25 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 11:37:25 -0400 Subject: IBM/PC XT and AT boot disks needed In-Reply-To: <001a01d1933c$85112830$8f337890$@net> References: <001a01d1933c$85112830$8f337890$@net> Message-ID: Looks like an info-packed site. Thanks for the link. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 10, 2016, at 11:20 AM, Ali wrote: > > Rich, > > Checkout http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/index.htm. > > -Ali > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >> Richard Cini >> Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 7:54 AM >> To: CCTalk >> Subject: IBM/PC XT and AT boot disks needed >> >> All - >> >> I'm helping a buddy of mine restore an original XT and original AT and >> I'm looking for original boot disks for them. I have the AT Diagnostics >> disk but the other disks I have seem to be bad. Does anyone have images >> that they could send me or point me to an archive of original disks? >> Thanks! >> >> Rich >> >> -- >> Rich Cini >> http://www.classiccmp.org/cini >> http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 > > From malcolm at avitech.com.au Sun Apr 10 13:49:19 2016 From: malcolm at avitech.com.au (malcolm at avitech.com.au) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 04:49:19 +1000 Subject: In search of VAX 8550 or similar... In-Reply-To: <56A0153D66EF8B17.FA2637A0-219B-44D0-B2FE-8A968438799D@mail.outlook.com> References: <56A0153D66EF8B17.FA2637A0-219B-44D0-B2FE-8A968438799D@mail.outlook.com> Message-ID: <001d01d19359$b361f990$1a25ecb0$@avitech.com.au> Hi Ian, I have a fairly large collection of large VAX machines that are available for sale. Here is a rough list: Large Vax Machines 1. VAX 11/785 2. VAX 8550 3. VAX 6000-430 4. VAX Vector 6000-520 5. VAX 6000-630 6. VAX Vector 6000-440 7. VAX 11/750 system comprising 4 cabinets. Includes an RA81, UNIBUS expansion chassis, TU80 and cabling cabinet. 8. Plessey VAX 11/750 system in 4 cabinets approximately 5.5 feet tall. Includes hard drive, 11/751 processor unit and tape drive. 9. 9 x HSC cluster controllers Large Alpha machines 10. 2 x DEC 7000 11. DEC 4000. Has multiple SCSI and DSSI drives in the front, and processor rack in the back. MicroVAX, pedestal VAX, etc 12. VAX 4000-300 13. 3 x MicroVAX II pedestal units 14. 6 x VaxServer 3400/3500 pedestal units 15. SF100 with TF687 loader (tape jukebox unit?). Large pedestal form factor. 16. 2 x DECserver 550 (naked rack-mount units) 17. 1 x unknown box in same form factor as DECserver 550 18. 1 x MicroVAX 3500 19. 1 x Firefox (looks similar to MicroVAX 3500) 20. 1 x R400x 21. 1 x rack SA650 (drives) 22. 1 x rack SA800 (drives) 23. 2 x Microvax 3400 There is also a large amount of smaller systems (11/730s, DECstations, Alphas, etc) and large and small tape drives, SMD drives etc. If you are interested, let me know. The equipment is in Melbourne, Australia. I recently had a quote of around $5,000 to send a 20 foot container from Australia to the U.S. Regards, Malcolm -----Original Message----- From: Ian Finder [mailto:ian.finder at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, 10 April 2016 4:14 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: In search of VAX 8550 or similar... Would like to purchase and restore a big mid-80s VAX. Stupidly passed one up recently. Let me know if you have one you'd be willing to part with- also open to trades. In the Seattle area, but a little too comfortable with arranging freight shipping... Sent from Outlook for iPhone From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Apr 10 14:23:34 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 12:23:34 -0700 Subject: In search of VAX 8550 or similar... In-Reply-To: <001d01d19359$b361f990$1a25ecb0$@avitech.com.au> References: <56A0153D66EF8B17.FA2637A0-219B-44D0-B2FE-8A968438799D@mail.outlook.com> <001d01d19359$b361f990$1a25ecb0$@avitech.com.au> Message-ID: > On Apr 10, 2016, at 11:49, malcolm at avitech.com.au wrote: > > I have a fairly large collection of large VAX machines that are available > for sale. Here is a rough list: > > Large Vax Machines > 1. VAX 11/785 I'd like to go on record stating that I'm jealous of your 11/785! Buying it and shipping it to the US probably isn't in my future, sadly. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 15:51:06 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 08:51:06 +1200 Subject: In search of VAX 8550 or similar... In-Reply-To: <001d01d19359$b361f990$1a25ecb0$@avitech.com.au> References: <56A0153D66EF8B17.FA2637A0-219B-44D0-B2FE-8A968438799D@mail.outlook.com> <001d01d19359$b361f990$1a25ecb0$@avitech.com.au> Message-ID: I'm in NZ and I'm down for at least a couple of the large systems - 750 & 785. Possibly 8600 730 & a pedestal machine. Traveling just now, can I get back to you in a week or so? On Apr 10, 2016 2:49 PM, wrote: > Hi Ian, > > I have a fairly large collection of large VAX machines that are available > for sale. Here is a rough list: > > Large Vax Machines > 1. VAX 11/785 > 2. VAX 8550 > 3. VAX 6000-430 > 4. VAX Vector 6000-520 > 5. VAX 6000-630 > 6. VAX Vector 6000-440 > 7. VAX 11/750 system comprising 4 cabinets. Includes an RA81, > UNIBUS expansion chassis, TU80 and cabling cabinet. > 8. Plessey VAX 11/750 system in 4 cabinets approximately 5.5 > feet tall. Includes hard drive, 11/751 processor unit and tape drive. > 9. 9 x HSC cluster controllers > > Large Alpha machines > 10. 2 x DEC 7000 > 11. DEC 4000. Has multiple SCSI and DSSI drives in the front, > and processor rack in the back. > > MicroVAX, pedestal VAX, etc > 12. VAX 4000-300 > 13. 3 x MicroVAX II pedestal units > 14. 6 x VaxServer 3400/3500 pedestal units > 15. SF100 with TF687 loader (tape jukebox unit?). Large > pedestal form factor. > 16. 2 x DECserver 550 (naked rack-mount units) > 17. 1 x unknown box in same form factor as DECserver 550 > 18. 1 x MicroVAX 3500 > 19. 1 x Firefox (looks similar to MicroVAX 3500) > 20. 1 x R400x > 21. 1 x rack SA650 (drives) > 22. 1 x rack SA800 (drives) > 23. 2 x Microvax 3400 > > There is also a large amount of smaller systems (11/730s, DECstations, > Alphas, etc) and large and small tape drives, SMD drives etc. > > If you are interested, let me know. The equipment is in Melbourne, > Australia. I recently had a quote of around $5,000 to send a 20 foot > container from Australia to the U.S. > > Regards, > Malcolm > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Finder [mailto:ian.finder at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, 10 April 2016 4:14 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: In search of VAX 8550 or similar... > > Would like to purchase and restore a big mid-80s VAX. Stupidly passed one > up > recently. > Let me know if you have one you'd be willing to part with- also open to > trades. > In the Seattle area, but a little too comfortable with arranging freight > shipping... > > Sent from Outlook for iPhone > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Apr 10 20:05:31 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 01:05:31 +0000 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <1a3701d192d6$196ebf40$4c4c3dc0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5707FCF5.6000502@sydex.com> <18e401d191c8$a3600240$ea2006c0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> , <1a3701d192d6$196ebf40$4c4c3dc0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: To protect a regulator against a back volt, you can put a diode, in reversed polarity. How many pixels will the camera have? Dwight From useddec at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 20:35:05 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:35:05 -0500 Subject: IBM/PC XT and AT boot disks needed In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d1933c$85112830$8f337890$@net> Message-ID: I have several AT or XT motherboards that are possibly new, but probably refurbished. If any needs any, feel free to contact me off list. Paul On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Richard Cini wrote: > Looks like an info-packed site. Thanks for the link. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 10, 2016, at 11:20 AM, Ali wrote: > > > > Rich, > > > > Checkout http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/index.htm. > > > > -Ali > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> Richard Cini > >> Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 7:54 AM > >> To: CCTalk > >> Subject: IBM/PC XT and AT boot disks needed > >> > >> All - > >> > >> I'm helping a buddy of mine restore an original XT and original AT and > >> I'm looking for original boot disks for them. I have the AT Diagnostics > >> disk but the other disks I have seem to be bad. Does anyone have images > >> that they could send me or point me to an archive of original disks? > >> Thanks! > >> > >> Rich > >> > >> -- > >> Rich Cini > >> http://www.classiccmp.org/cini > >> http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 > > > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 21:19:09 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 19:19:09 -0700 Subject: Still looking for: Nova 800/1200 power supplies Message-ID: <570B099D.6060703@gmail.com> Hi all -- Nearly two years back I picked up some Nova 800/1200 gear, mostly in pieces. I've been trying to track down power supplies for these for awhile, thought I'd try asking here again and see if I have any better luck this time :). Both chassis are the "Jumbo" variety, and take two power supplies each -- one that provides +/-5 and +/-15 and another that just supplies dual +5. At the moment I have just one power supply -- a dual +5 supply. I also only have one of the "DGC NOVA RESISTOR BD" boards that are the go-betweens between the backplane and the power supply -- the 52-pin edge connector from the supply plugs into this board, and the board plugs into the backplane. I need at least one more of these... It's relatively unlikely, but if anyone happens to have any 800/1200 power supplies going spare, in any condition, drop me a line. Thanks again, Josh From useddec at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 21:32:19 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 21:32:19 -0500 Subject: In search of VAX 8550 or similar... In-Reply-To: References: <56A0153D66EF8B17.FA2637A0-219B-44D0-B2FE-8A968438799D@mail.outlook.com> <001d01d19359$b361f990$1a25ecb0$@avitech.com.au> Message-ID: If you need parts for any of them, let me know... On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:51 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > I'm in NZ and I'm down for at least a couple of the large systems - 750 & > 785. Possibly 8600 730 & a pedestal machine. Traveling just now, can I get > back to you in a week or so? > On Apr 10, 2016 2:49 PM, wrote: > > > Hi Ian, > > > > I have a fairly large collection of large VAX machines that are available > > for sale. Here is a rough list: > > > > Large Vax Machines > > 1. VAX 11/785 > > 2. VAX 8550 > > 3. VAX 6000-430 > > 4. VAX Vector 6000-520 > > 5. VAX 6000-630 > > 6. VAX Vector 6000-440 > > 7. VAX 11/750 system comprising 4 cabinets. Includes an > RA81, > > UNIBUS expansion chassis, TU80 and cabling cabinet. > > 8. Plessey VAX 11/750 system in 4 cabinets approximately 5.5 > > feet tall. Includes hard drive, 11/751 processor unit and tape drive. > > 9. 9 x HSC cluster controllers > > > > Large Alpha machines > > 10. 2 x DEC 7000 > > 11. DEC 4000. Has multiple SCSI and DSSI drives in the > front, > > and processor rack in the back. > > > > MicroVAX, pedestal VAX, etc > > 12. VAX 4000-300 > > 13. 3 x MicroVAX II pedestal units > > 14. 6 x VaxServer 3400/3500 pedestal units > > 15. SF100 with TF687 loader (tape jukebox unit?). Large > > pedestal form factor. > > 16. 2 x DECserver 550 (naked rack-mount units) > > 17. 1 x unknown box in same form factor as DECserver 550 > > 18. 1 x MicroVAX 3500 > > 19. 1 x Firefox (looks similar to MicroVAX 3500) > > 20. 1 x R400x > > 21. 1 x rack SA650 (drives) > > 22. 1 x rack SA800 (drives) > > 23. 2 x Microvax 3400 > > > > There is also a large amount of smaller systems (11/730s, DECstations, > > Alphas, etc) and large and small tape drives, SMD drives etc. > > > > If you are interested, let me know. The equipment is in Melbourne, > > Australia. I recently had a quote of around $5,000 to send a 20 foot > > container from Australia to the U.S. > > > > Regards, > > Malcolm > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ian Finder [mailto:ian.finder at gmail.com] > > Sent: Sunday, 10 April 2016 4:14 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: In search of VAX 8550 or similar... > > > > Would like to purchase and restore a big mid-80s VAX. Stupidly passed one > > up > > recently. > > Let me know if you have one you'd be willing to part with- also open to > > trades. > > In the Seattle area, but a little too comfortable with arranging freight > > shipping... > > > > Sent from Outlook for iPhone > > > > > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 21:32:45 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 19:32:45 -0700 Subject: Stuff for sale in Seattle Message-ID: <570B0CCD.4060907@gmail.com> Hi all -- Spring is nearly here and it's time to clear out some space. The following stuff must go, drop me a line if you're interested. Local pick-up in Seattle, WA. Free: - 2x TI 1500S UNIX workstations. One's an S1505 with a 68030, one's an S1507 with a 68040. Both power up and pass built-in diagnostics. No OS media, no drives. - Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 workstation/server. No OS media, no drives, no drive controller. CPU, Memory, I/O present. Heavy. A bit dirty, but will clean up nicely. For Sale: - Zilog S8000. This is a Z8000-based machine that originally ran a UNIX port called ZEUS. System includes CPU unit, two 80mb SMD drive units (one with cartridge tape drive) and two empty units at the bottom. I had the system powered up and running a couple of years back, but I have no OS media (this would appear to be a theme) and the hard drives were either wiped or corrupted. I have a few spare boards as well. I actually really like this system, but I need the space. Asking $250. Thanks, Josh From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 21:54:02 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 21:54:02 -0500 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5707FCF5.6000502@sydex.com> Message-ID: I've often wondered why the back-current diode isn't incorporated into the die of all common linear regs. Is it that costly, or simply impractical due to die space or other considerations? In fact, I believe that some of the more modern regs do employ it.. just not the old-standby like LM317, 7805/7905, and so on. On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 8:05 PM, dwight wrote: > To protect a regulator against a back volt, > you can put a diode, in reversed polarity. > How many pixels will the camera have? > Dwight > From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 00:02:01 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 23:02:01 -0600 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5707FCF5.6000502@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 8:54 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > I've often wondered why the back-current diode isn't incorporated into the > die of all common linear regs. Is it that costly, or simply impractical due > to die space or other considerations? Because it would introduce additional voltage drop, and thus additional power dissipation. > In fact, I believe that some of the more modern regs do employ it.. just > not the old-standby like LM317, 7805/7905, and so on. Some of the more modern regulators may be protected to some degree against votlage supplied to their output terminal, but it's almost certainly not being done by a diode in series internally. From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 00:47:46 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 00:47:46 -0500 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5707FCF5.6000502@sydex.com> Message-ID: Eric, No, not a series diode (in series with the In or Out), but a diode connected from Out to In, with the band on the In terminal. It provides a moderately high current path in the event that the voltage on the Out exceeds that on the In. This might occur if the input voltage suddenly drops (shorted input?), while there is a charged large-ish cap on the (lightly-loaded) output side. The diode provides a safe path for the reverse current flow, which would otherwise possibly damage low-current pathways within the regulator device. On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 8:54 PM, drlegendre . > wrote: > > I've often wondered why the back-current diode isn't incorporated into > the > > die of all common linear regs. Is it that costly, or simply impractical > due > > to die space or other considerations? > > Because it would introduce additional voltage drop, and thus > additional power dissipation. > > > In fact, I believe that some of the more modern regs do employ it.. just > > not the old-standby like LM317, 7805/7905, and so on. > > Some of the more modern regulators may be protected to some degree > against votlage supplied to their output terminal, but it's almost > certainly not being done by a diode in series internally. > From vince at mulhollon.com Mon Apr 11 07:03:34 2016 From: vince at mulhollon.com (Vince Mulhollon) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:03:34 -0500 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5707FCF5.6000502@sydex.com> Message-ID: The data sheets all spec stability when the output has a fraction of one uF on the output, but for a variety of (bad) reasons some designers insist on putting, sometimes, tens thousands of often very low ESR uF at the output. That's extremely hard on the protection diode and it'll have to be beefy, I'm sure at some size of cap it'll be bigger than the regulator die, and none the less someone will attach an even bigger cap (why?) and blow out the reg anyway. In the old days regulator ICs were very expensive and caps were cheap, so you'd try to run entire systems off one expensive reg and one HUGE cap. Now, reg ICs are very cheap and small and caps and especially heatsinks are expensive and relatively large, so its cheaper to regulate multiply and locally, with small caps, no need for the diode.. so don't expect changes from the mfgrs any time soon.. Assuming money were no object and people would pay twice as much for a reg where the die is half protection diode, the next problem is a reverse biased diode is a RF short, so goodbye 80 dB CMRR or whatever it is, and uV level output noise performance. The old 78xx series is quiet enough for analog or digital use so they'd need to sell quiet ones for RF and protected ones for digital. Tens of mV of RF noise at 5 MHz is fine for digital, not so good for a microphone preamp. I'd guess that "most" IC regs in a circuit with a giant cap are just driving a giant transistor anyway to get 15 amps out or whatever, and that junction is the one needing protection anyway. So the lm317 in my giant astron 12V power supply will never blow... its "only" driving some giant pass transistors, which are the junctions actually needing protection diodes. So most of the time circuits with giant caps come with giant transistors making protection diodes on the die a waste. The 78xx series is short circuit protected and they can sell that with a straight face without a reverse protection diode. With a diode, all you need is the drop from input to output to exceed its PIV (power spike? Shorted output?) and it'll zener till the cows come home, blowing everything on the board with no short circuit protection until the protection diode melts. Now the hearsay handwavy starts with "due to design of the reg, the overall system is more survivable without the protection diode". A low PIV might make the reg useless for HV applications. The 7805 for example doesn't actually output 5V it forces the ground pin to 5 volts lower than the output. If ground is actually 995 volts, the output will be a nice regulated 1000 volts for a geiger counter or whatever. That means the reverse protection diode "needs" a PIV like 1000+ volts. On die, thats tricky and expensive. Its best left off die for the engineer to optimize. Finally in my experience its mostly theoretical anyway. You can't have reverse current without a complete path, and the reverse path tends to be pretty low current when the power is off. From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Apr 11 09:51:05 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:51:05 -0700 Subject: Still looking for: Nova 800/1200 power supplies In-Reply-To: <570B099D.6060703@gmail.com> References: <570B099D.6060703@gmail.com> Message-ID: If your in a hurry, here is what I've done in the past. I did this for a DEC PDP 11. It needed the 5V. Get a modern switcher that meets the power requirements and one that takes external lugs and supports external voltage sensing.When you crimp the lug at the far end add the sense wire so that both are in the same lug. Triple check. Oh .. if you really want to make sure, build a load for the supply and make sure it runs under load. I was lucky, I had a power supply load bank. If your current is under 5 Amps or so, you may skip bringing the sense wires out. Add OVP (Over Voltage Protection) if you can. You can finds many on the usual auction sites, an depending on where you live check with armature radio (ham) types. Cable up to where the original supply went. use lugs or other means that can be easily removed and will make good electrical connections. Cover all connections with tape or heat shrink. All that effort will pretty much cause the supply you have been looking for to show up out of nowhere. On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 7:19 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Nearly two years back I picked up some Nova 800/1200 gear, mostly in > pieces. I've been trying to track down power supplies for these for > awhile, thought I'd try asking here again and see if I have any better luck > this time :). Both chassis are the "Jumbo" variety, and take two power > supplies each -- one that provides +/-5 and +/-15 and another that just > supplies dual +5. At the moment I have just one power supply -- a dual +5 > supply. > > I also only have one of the "DGC NOVA RESISTOR BD" boards that are the > go-betweens between the backplane and the power supply -- the 52-pin edge > connector from the supply plugs into this board, and the board plugs into > the backplane. I need at least one more of these... > > It's relatively unlikely, but if anyone happens to have any 800/1200 power > supplies going spare, in any condition, drop me a line. > > Thanks again, > Josh > > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Apr 11 10:21:07 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 11:21:07 -0400 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5707FCF5.6000502@sydex.com> <18e401d191c8$a3600240$ea2006c0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> , <1a3701d192d6$196ebf40$4c4c3dc0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1b9801d19405$c5e60af0$51b220d0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Dwight wrote: > How many pixels will the camera have? 1024. The (at the time) secret sauce image sensor is a Mostek MK4008-9. 32x32 pixel image. Bill S. From chrise at pobox.com Mon Apr 11 12:35:08 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:35:08 -0500 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <1b9801d19405$c5e60af0$51b220d0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5707FCF5.6000502@sydex.com> <18e401d191c8$a3600240$ea2006c0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <1a3701d192d6$196ebf40$4c4c3dc0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <1b9801d19405$c5e60af0$51b220d0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20160411173508.GH22119@n0jcf.net> On Monday (04/11/2016 at 11:21AM -0400), Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Dwight wrote: > > How many pixels will the camera have? > > 1024. The (at the time) secret sauce image sensor > is a Mostek MK4008-9. 32x32 pixel image. Which was a topless DRAM right? Not often a guy gets to use the word "topless" and "DRAM" in the same sentence, so I took advantage ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Apr 11 13:43:22 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 14:43:22 -0400 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <20160411173508.GH22119@n0jcf.net> References: <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5707FCF5.6000502@sydex.com> <18e401d191c8$a3600240$ea2006c0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <1a3701d192d6$196ebf40$4c4c3dc0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <1b9801d19405$c5e60af0$51b220d0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <20160411173508.GH22119@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <1be501d19422$0727c1e0$157745a0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Chris Elmquist wrote > On Monday (04/11/2016 at 11:21AM -0400), Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Dwight wrote: > > > How many pixels will the camera have? > > > > 1024. The (at the time) secret sauce image sensor > > is a Mostek MK4008-9. 32x32 pixel image. > > Which was a topless DRAM right? Yes. Dr. Garland and Dr. Walker have told me that they "decapitated" them both mechanically (with a very sharp chisel) and with heat (using a precise lab bench heat plate). I'm trying to decide which way to go myself. I only have a few to "screw up". I have a fairly high quality Pace SensaTemp soldering iron that can reach the required temperature (291 degrees C, I'm told). I have a large "mini-wave" tip that will hold a large drop of solder. I'm probably going to try that first. Lightly grip the chip in a small bench vice, mostly inverted. Bring the soldering tip up from underneath and apply heat until the cap shows motion, quickly remove the heat and push the lid off with a piece of wire. Bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 11 13:47:30 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 18:47:30 +0000 Subject: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... In-Reply-To: <1b9801d19405$c5e60af0$51b220d0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <5706C5F3.3090803@wulfman.com> <5707D445.7080804@wulfman.com> <5707EAFB.1030009@flippers.com> <201604081827.OAA01089@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5707FCF5.6000502@sydex.com> <18e401d191c8$a3600240$ea2006c0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> , <1a3701d192d6$196ebf40$4c4c3dc0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> , <1b9801d19405$c5e60af0$51b220d0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: That would work on my poly88 video card, with no grayscale. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Sudbrink Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 8:21 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Voltage regulator with alternate voltage source... Dwight wrote: > How many pixels will the camera have? 1024. The (at the time) secret sauce image sensor is a Mostek MK4008-9. 32x32 pixel image. Bill S. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Apr 11 14:51:34 2016 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 21:51:34 +0200 Subject: Raised flooring available ( Switzerland / Europe ) Message-ID: <570C0046.1020001@bluewin.ch> A local reseller has a good supply of secondhand raised flooring available, for 7 USD per square meter, which I believe is a very good price. Not affiliated etc etc, just giving a heads up on stuff that is not easy to find. Look for it on Ricardo.ch Jos From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 14:58:37 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 15:58:37 -0400 Subject: Raised flooring available ( Switzerland / Europe ) In-Reply-To: <570C0046.1020001@bluewin.ch> References: <570C0046.1020001@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: I am not interested in the floor, but I am curious - are raised floor tiles in Europe/UK/elsewhere the same size as the US ones (24 by 24 inches or 61 by 61 cm)? -- Will On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 3:51 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > A local reseller has a good supply of secondhand raised flooring available, > for 7 USD per square meter, which I believe is a very good price. > Not affiliated etc etc, just giving a heads up on stuff that is not easy to > find. > > Look for it on Ricardo.ch > > Jos From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 11 15:18:50 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 21:18:50 +0100 Subject: Raised flooring available ( Switzerland / Europe ) In-Reply-To: References: <570C0046.1020001@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <570C06AA.6020500@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/04/2016 20:58, William Donzelli wrote: > I am not interested in the floor, but I am curious - are raised floor > tiles in Europe/UK/elsewhere the same size as the US ones (24 by 24 > inches or 61 by 61 cm)? No, they're 60cm x 60cm (at least, all three I've got are). -- Pete From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Apr 11 15:42:38 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 22:42:38 +0200 Subject: DEC Professional 380, TMS and EBO questions Message-ID: <20160411204237.GA27678@Update.UU.SE> Hi. As some of you might remember I aquired a DEC Pro 380 (a VAX console really). I've been reading up on it but I this I can't figure out: 1. Without the Extended Bitmap Option (EBO) is it posdible to display color? Perhaps at the lower resolutions? 2. With the Telephone Management system, is it possible to play generic sounds? >From the speaker or audio jack? If anyone have a TMS or EBO for sale, I'd happily buy them. ( And a DECNA too, while we are at it :) Thanks, Pontus. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 00:23:22 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:23:22 +0200 Subject: DEC Professional 380, TMS and EBO questions In-Reply-To: <20160411204237.GA27678@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160411204237.GA27678@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 10:42 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > 1. Without the Extended Bitmap Option (EBO) is it posdible to display color? > Perhaps at the lower resolutions? No, the green and red video signals are generated by circuitry on the EBO. Without the EBO there's only one video signal generated. Camiel. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Apr 12 01:28:07 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 08:28:07 +0200 Subject: DEC Professional 380, TMS and EBO questions In-Reply-To: References: <20160411204237.GA27678@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20160412062806.GA25917@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 07:23:22AM +0200, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 10:42 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > > 1. Without the Extended Bitmap Option (EBO) is it posdible to display color? > > Perhaps at the lower resolutions? > > No, the green and red video signals are generated by circuitry on the > EBO. Without the EBO there's only one video signal generated. I suspected that. What about shades of grey? /P From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Apr 12 08:28:04 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 15:28:04 +0200 Subject: DEC Professional 380, TMS and EBO questions In-Reply-To: <20160412062806.GA25917@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160411204237.GA27678@Update.UU.SE> <20160412062806.GA25917@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20160412132804.GD89881@beast.freibergnet.de> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 07:23:22AM +0200, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 10:42 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > > > > 1. Without the Extended Bitmap Option (EBO) is it posdible to display color? > > > Perhaps at the lower resolutions? > > > > No, the green and red video signals are generated by circuitry on the > > EBO. Without the EBO there's only one video signal generated. > > I suspected that. What about shades of grey? > > /P Fifty? SCNR, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 12 08:32:43 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 09:32:43 -0400 Subject: DEC Professional 380, TMS and EBO questions In-Reply-To: <20160412062806.GA25917@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160411204237.GA27678@Update.UU.SE> <20160412062806.GA25917@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > On Apr 12, 2016, at 2:28 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 07:23:22AM +0200, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 10:42 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> >>> 1. Without the Extended Bitmap Option (EBO) is it posdible to display color? >>> Perhaps at the lower resolutions? >> >> No, the green and red video signals are generated by circuitry on the >> EBO. Without the EBO there's only one video signal generated. > > I suspected that. What about shades of grey? No. You can find all this in the Pro300 series technical manual, on Bitsavers. The base video module is one plane, so black/white only. The EBO module adds two more planes. paul From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Apr 12 08:57:39 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 15:57:39 +0200 Subject: DEC Professional 380, TMS and EBO questions In-Reply-To: References: <20160411204237.GA27678@Update.UU.SE> <20160412062806.GA25917@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20160412135739.GA2041@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 09:32:43AM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > > No. You can find all this in the Pro300 series technical manual, on > Bitsavers. The base video module is one plane, so black/white only. > The EBO module adds two more planes. One technical manual(EK-PC350-TM) on bitsavers is for the 350 only. Which states that you can sacrifice resolution for more shades. The other (EK-PC300-V1 and -V2) covers both the 350 and 380 but is less than crystal clear when it comes to the Bit Map Video Controller on the 380. I'd be surprised if the 380 behaves differently, but I wanted to know if anyone knew for certain. I read somewhere that few programs used the lower resolution so in practice it might not matter so much. /P From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 12 09:30:47 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 10:30:47 -0400 Subject: DEC Professional 380, TMS and EBO questions In-Reply-To: <20160412135739.GA2041@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160411204237.GA27678@Update.UU.SE> <20160412062806.GA25917@Update.UU.SE> <20160412135739.GA2041@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <1F0EA3B5-9366-40D2-B49E-09B088DFA1B4@comcast.net> > On Apr 12, 2016, at 9:57 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 09:32:43AM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> No. You can find all this in the Pro300 series technical manual, on >> Bitsavers. The base video module is one plane, so black/white only. >> The EBO module adds two more planes. > > One technical manual(EK-PC350-TM) on bitsavers is for the 350 only. > Which states that you can sacrifice resolution for more shades. > > The other (EK-PC300-V1 and -V2) covers both the 350 and 380 but is less > than crystal clear when it comes to the Bit Map Video Controller on the > 380. > > I'd be surprised if the 380 behaves differently, but I wanted to know if > anyone knew for certain. I read somewhere that few programs used the > lower resolution so in practice it might not matter so much. I only have a base video 380 (and, perhaps, parts of others that I haven't really analyzed). So my coding has only been for that base functionality. The 380 design matches that of the 350 functionally, for the parts that were considered relevant. For example, the misguided parts of the original Intel interrupt controllers don't exist in the 380 interrupt control logic, but the parts that are used by Pro software are unchanged in both. Similarly, as far as I remember, the video logic is compatible between the two. In the 380, video is built-in and appears in "slot 6" (the address block after the highest real I/O card slot, number 5). The 380 video is described in chapter 6, but given the compatibility, if you want more detail you can use the 350 video documentation as needed. If there is a conflict, assume the 380 documentation gives the right answer, but if the 380 section leaves something out, you can assume the 350 analog is the answer for both. Ok, so in looking more closely, I see a register that lets me chose 1024 bit resolution B/W, 512 bit resolution in 4 levels of gray, 256 bit in 16 levels. I haven't used that. (Instead, I used every other pixel for normal intensity, set all pixels for bold -- for 80 column text. For 132 column text there aren't enough pixels for that so I didn't support bold there.) It seems that this variable resolution stuff is valid even without EBO, but if you do have an EBO it applies only if you have the colormap disabled. With the colormap enabled, you have 8 colormap entries indexed by the three planes, and you get 4 bits of intensity per channel. (This is a place where the Pro 350 is different, it has only 3 bits per channel.) paul From jrr at flippers.com Tue Apr 12 09:46:28 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:46:28 -0700 Subject: Servicing DEC-T11 based products with a Fluke pod? Message-ID: <570D0A44.7090302@flippers.com> Has anyone here figured out an adapter for one of the Fluke 9010 pods to be able to emulate the multiplexed address and data lines of the T11? I am just starting to look at this as I need to access these lines to service an old video game board that used the T11 as the main processor. Any of you not familiar with the DEC-T11 it is a 40 pin device that emulates a PDP11 as far as I can understand. I don't know anything about the PDP11 technically though so am pretty much hacking my way through the troubleshooting procedure (which the manufacturer of the game - Atari - did not provide. Just flinging this out in the hopes someone here can help. Thanks, John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 13:09:00 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 14:09:00 -0400 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 Message-ID: A local recycling center called me and said they are to pick up an ibm as/400 mainframe from a working environment. I left a deposit and am scheduled to go pick it up in the next day or so. I am not even sure of what all it comes with or what can be run on the machine. Any advice in advance on what to expect? I realize there are a ton of different as/400 models, they were not very descript on the phone, so i have no way of knowing till i go pick it up what exactly it is or what it comes with. I rushed on dropping a deposit on the thing. The other guy at the place is notorious for ripping boards with shiny chips out and trying to pass off the dismantled machine to me. I asked for a picture of the thing on site before it is moved. If it is not all there I am not purchasing it. >From the description it sounds like it comes with some terminals and printers too. could be interesting. Is the guy that put the ibm mainframe in his basement on the list? ive been wanting to talk to him. --Devin From mspproductions at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 13:51:37 2016 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 14:51:37 -0400 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I do believe Connor is on here. I will say this the IBM Mainframes and the Large AS/400's are quite different. If you can get a picture of the front plate where it says AS/400 there will be the model nuimber under that and we can figure out what you have from that. Once you have that info, we can have a better idea what you are in for :) As such can help you accordingly. On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 2:09 PM, devin davison wrote: > A local recycling center called me and said they are to pick up an ibm > as/400 mainframe from a working environment. I left a deposit and am > scheduled to go pick it up in the next day or so. > > I am not even sure of what all it comes with or what can be run on the > machine. Any advice in advance on what to expect? > > I realize there are a ton of different as/400 models, they were not very > descript on the phone, so i have no way of knowing till i go pick it up > what exactly it is or what it comes with. > > I rushed on dropping a deposit on the thing. The other guy at the place is > notorious for ripping boards with shiny chips out and trying to pass off > the dismantled machine to me. I asked for a picture of the thing on site > before it is moved. If it is not all there I am not purchasing it. > > From the description it sounds like it comes with some terminals and > printers too. could be interesting. > > Is the guy that put the ibm mainframe in his basement on the list? ive been > wanting to talk to him. > > > --Devin > -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign From supervinx at libero.it Tue Apr 12 13:58:12 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 20:58:12 +0200 Subject: R: Getting an ibm as/400 Message-ID: Check cards and get all the cables. They are somewhat hard to find if you miss something... -------- Messaggio originale -------- Da: devin davison Data:12/04/2016 20:09 (GMT+01:00) A: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Oggetto: Getting an ibm as/400 A local recycling center called me and said they are to pick up an ibm as/400 mainframe from a working environment. I left a deposit and am scheduled to go pick it up in the next day or so. I am not even sure of what all it comes with or what can be run on the machine. Any advice in advance on what to expect? I realize there are a ton of different as/400 models, they were not very descript on the phone, so i have no way of knowing till i go pick it up what exactly it is or what it comes with. I rushed on dropping a deposit on the thing. The other guy at the place is notorious for ripping boards with shiny chips out and trying to pass off the dismantled machine to me. I asked for a picture of the thing on site before it is moved. If it is not all there I am not purchasing it. From the description it sounds like it comes with some terminals and printers too. could be interesting. Is the guy that put the ibm mainframe in his basement on the list? ive been wanting to talk to him. --Devin From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 14:08:42 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 15:08:42 -0400 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ?Gotcha. i didn't want something interesting to get away so i kinda reserved it without knowing exactly what it is yet. I will post back with the model, thanks. From mazzinia at tin.it Tue Apr 12 14:17:35 2016 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:17:35 +0200 Subject: R: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00fd01d194ef$fd4cd2e0$f7e678a0$@tin.it> The main issue with As/400 is related with licenses, os included. There are some models (relatively old) that can run unlicensed (and going back in time, some required a special tape unique to that serial number, to be reinstalled. Fat chances of getting a copy of that from ibm now, so in those cases is very important that such tape is present in the goodies), otherwise I would say that if they pick up the "toy" from the current workplace, they have to collect all the sw/ibm media/license papers related to it. There's more than one way to get an (heavy) paperweight. What to expect... is a bit more flat than zos, this is something used for erp/billing/bank terminals to say something. There's just os/400 that can be installed on an as/400, forget linux or etc ( if an iseries, more recent, aix is also an option, and linux too ) -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Matt Patoray Inviato: marted? 12 aprile 2016 20:52 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 Hello, I do believe Connor is on here. I will say this the IBM Mainframes and the Large AS/400's are quite different. If you can get a picture of the front plate where it says AS/400 there will be the model nuimber under that and we can figure out what you have from that. Once you have that info, we can have a better idea what you are in for :) As such can help you accordingly. On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 2:09 PM, devin davison wrote: > A local recycling center called me and said they are to pick up an ibm > as/400 mainframe from a working environment. I left a deposit and am > scheduled to go pick it up in the next day or so. > > I am not even sure of what all it comes with or what can be run on the > machine. Any advice in advance on what to expect? > > I realize there are a ton of different as/400 models, they were not > very descript on the phone, so i have no way of knowing till i go pick > it up what exactly it is or what it comes with. > > I rushed on dropping a deposit on the thing. The other guy at the > place is notorious for ripping boards with shiny chips out and trying > to pass off the dismantled machine to me. I asked for a picture of the > thing on site before it is moved. If it is not all there I am not purchasing it. > > From the description it sounds like it comes with some terminals and > printers too. could be interesting. > > Is the guy that put the ibm mainframe in his basement on the list? ive > been wanting to talk to him. > > > --Devin > -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 14:46:43 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 15:46:43 -0400 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: <00fd01d194ef$fd4cd2e0$f7e678a0$@tin.it> References: <00fd01d194ef$fd4cd2e0$f7e678a0$@tin.it> Message-ID: Yeah i wanted to talk directly with the place it is coming from but they are being very secretive and swear that all the drives have to be wiped. they said some drives had to be destroyed. I believe it is coming from Harris, so it makes sense. Still trying to get every single scrap of paper and tapes to go with it if i can. On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > The main issue with As/400 is related with licenses, os included. > There are some models (relatively old) that can run unlicensed (and going > back in time, some required a special tape unique to that serial number, to > be reinstalled. Fat chances of getting a copy of that from ibm now, so in > those cases is very important that such tape is present in the goodies), > otherwise I would say that if they pick up the "toy" from the current > workplace, they have to collect all the sw/ibm media/license papers related > to it. > > There's more than one way to get an (heavy) paperweight. > > What to expect... is a bit more flat than zos, this is something used for > erp/billing/bank terminals to say something. > There's just os/400 that can be installed on an as/400, forget linux or > etc ( if an iseries, more recent, aix is also an option, and linux too ) > > > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Matt > Patoray > Inviato: marted? 12 aprile 2016 20:52 > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 > > Hello, > > I do believe Connor is on here. I will say this the IBM Mainframes and the > Large AS/400's are quite different. If you can get a picture of the front > plate where it says AS/400 there will be the model nuimber under that and > we can figure out what you have from that. > > Once you have that info, we can have a better idea what you are in for :) > As such can help you accordingly. > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 2:09 PM, devin davison > wrote: > > > A local recycling center called me and said they are to pick up an ibm > > as/400 mainframe from a working environment. I left a deposit and am > > scheduled to go pick it up in the next day or so. > > > > I am not even sure of what all it comes with or what can be run on the > > machine. Any advice in advance on what to expect? > > > > I realize there are a ton of different as/400 models, they were not > > very descript on the phone, so i have no way of knowing till i go pick > > it up what exactly it is or what it comes with. > > > > I rushed on dropping a deposit on the thing. The other guy at the > > place is notorious for ripping boards with shiny chips out and trying > > to pass off the dismantled machine to me. I asked for a picture of the > > thing on site before it is moved. If it is not all there I am not > purchasing it. > > > > From the description it sounds like it comes with some terminals and > > printers too. could be interesting. > > > > Is the guy that put the ibm mainframe in his basement on the list? ive > > been wanting to talk to him. > > > > > > --Devin > > > > > > -- > Matt Patoray > Owner, MSP Productions > KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign > > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 14:53:01 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 07:53:01 +1200 Subject: R: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <00fd01d194ef$fd4cd2e0$f7e678a0$@tin.it> Message-ID: Key thing is what color it is. If it's light grey it's definitely an old CISC machine - classic 48-bit AS/400. They're good and desirable but they do need the MULIC (Model Unique Licensed Internal Code) tape to get going. If it's black... Well some of the very last CISC AS/400s (e.g. 9406-500) were black - but it's much more likely to be a RISC machine. With those you get 70 days unlicensed use - then it reverts to only allowing login at the console IIRC; I don't recall what else stops working. Licensing on the RISC machines is just a long code you type in to the system; no MULIC tape! :) Another possible gotcha is keys; hopefully it comes with them. If it doesn't, hope the lock is in the manual position which allows full front panel function. Then there are password issues; QSECOFR is the key account - equivalent to root - and if you don't have that password you may be able to reset it using an alternate boot sequence involving something called DST... Unless they've changed the DST password too, in which case you can only wipe the system and reinstall the OS. If you need install media I can help... Mike On Apr 12, 2016 3:18 PM, "Mazzini Alessandro" wrote: The main issue with As/400 is related with licenses, os included. There are some models (relatively old) that can run unlicensed (and going back in time, some required a special tape unique to that serial number, to be reinstalled. Fat chances of getting a copy of that from ibm now, so in those cases is very important that such tape is present in the goodies), otherwise I would say that if they pick up the "toy" from the current workplace, they have to collect all the sw/ibm media/license papers related to it. There's more than one way to get an (heavy) paperweight. What to expect... is a bit more flat than zos, this is something used for erp/billing/bank terminals to say something. There's just os/400 that can be installed on an as/400, forget linux or etc ( if an iseries, more recent, aix is also an option, and linux too ) -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Matt Patoray Inviato: marted? 12 aprile 2016 20:52 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 Hello, I do believe Connor is on here. I will say this the IBM Mainframes and the Large AS/400's are quite different. If you can get a picture of the front plate where it says AS/400 there will be the model nuimber under that and we can figure out what you have from that. Once you have that info, we can have a better idea what you are in for :) As such can help you accordingly. On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 2:09 PM, devin davison wrote: > A local recycling center called me and said they are to pick up an ibm > as/400 mainframe from a working environment. I left a deposit and am > scheduled to go pick it up in the next day or so. > > I am not even sure of what all it comes with or what can be run on the > machine. Any advice in advance on what to expect? > > I realize there are a ton of different as/400 models, they were not > very descript on the phone, so i have no way of knowing till i go pick > it up what exactly it is or what it comes with. > > I rushed on dropping a deposit on the thing. The other guy at the > place is notorious for ripping boards with shiny chips out and trying > to pass off the dismantled machine to me. I asked for a picture of the > thing on site before it is moved. If it is not all there I am not purchasing it. > > From the description it sounds like it comes with some terminals and > printers too. could be interesting. > > Is the guy that put the ibm mainframe in his basement on the list? ive > been wanting to talk to him. > > > --Devin > -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 15:04:05 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 16:04:05 -0400 Subject: R: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <00fd01d194ef$fd4cd2e0$f7e678a0$@tin.it> Message-ID: Good to know. IM trying to clear a place to put the thing. They have not been returning my calls, i have been trying to determine the model number and exactly what tapes and accessories/ terminals, etc it comes with. On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 3:53 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Key thing is what color it is. If it's light grey it's definitely an old > CISC machine - classic 48-bit AS/400. They're good and desirable but they > do need the MULIC (Model Unique Licensed Internal Code) tape to get going. > If it's black... Well some of the very last CISC AS/400s (e.g. 9406-500) > were black - but it's much more likely to be a RISC machine. With those you > get 70 days unlicensed use - then it reverts to only allowing login at the > console IIRC; I don't recall what else stops working. Licensing on the RISC > machines is just a long code you type in to the system; no MULIC tape! :) > > Another possible gotcha is keys; hopefully it comes with them. If it > doesn't, hope the lock is in the manual position which allows full front > panel function. > > Then there are password issues; QSECOFR is the key account - equivalent to > root - and if you don't have that password you may be able to reset it > using an alternate boot sequence involving something called DST... Unless > they've changed the DST password too, in which case you can only wipe the > system and reinstall the OS. If you need install media I can help... > > Mike > On Apr 12, 2016 3:18 PM, "Mazzini Alessandro" wrote: > > The main issue with As/400 is related with licenses, os included. > There are some models (relatively old) that can run unlicensed (and going > back in time, some required a special tape unique to that serial number, to > be reinstalled. Fat chances of getting a copy of that from ibm now, so in > those cases is very important that such tape is present in the goodies), > otherwise I would say that if they pick up the "toy" from the current > workplace, they have to collect all the sw/ibm media/license papers related > to it. > > There's more than one way to get an (heavy) paperweight. > > What to expect... is a bit more flat than zos, this is something used for > erp/billing/bank terminals to say something. > There's just os/400 that can be installed on an as/400, forget linux or etc > ( if an iseries, more recent, aix is also an option, and linux too ) > > > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Matt > Patoray > Inviato: marted? 12 aprile 2016 20:52 > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 > > Hello, > > I do believe Connor is on here. I will say this the IBM Mainframes and the > Large AS/400's are quite different. If you can get a picture of the front > plate where it says AS/400 there will be the model nuimber under that and > we can figure out what you have from that. > > Once you have that info, we can have a better idea what you are in for :) > As such can help you accordingly. > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 2:09 PM, devin davison > wrote: > > > A local recycling center called me and said they are to pick up an ibm > > as/400 mainframe from a working environment. I left a deposit and am > > scheduled to go pick it up in the next day or so. > > > > I am not even sure of what all it comes with or what can be run on the > > machine. Any advice in advance on what to expect? > > > > I realize there are a ton of different as/400 models, they were not > > very descript on the phone, so i have no way of knowing till i go pick > > it up what exactly it is or what it comes with. > > > > I rushed on dropping a deposit on the thing. The other guy at the > > place is notorious for ripping boards with shiny chips out and trying > > to pass off the dismantled machine to me. I asked for a picture of the > > thing on site before it is moved. If it is not all there I am not > purchasing it. > > > > From the description it sounds like it comes with some terminals and > > printers too. could be interesting. > > > > Is the guy that put the ibm mainframe in his basement on the list? ive > > been wanting to talk to him. > > > > > > --Devin > > > > > > -- > Matt Patoray > Owner, MSP Productions > KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign > From ed at groenenberg.net Tue Apr 12 14:55:39 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:55:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: A fruitfull evening Message-ID: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> So after cleaning up and reorganizing my computer/hobby room I thought it was time to get the asr33 working again. It has a stuck carriage (at the right end), and it would only go back after repeated CR's. First thing I did was to replace the gooed up rubber hammer, only to find out that my replacements were also starting to deteriorate :( (but still stiff enough to be usable for some print test). I can either use a piece of hose or one of those little self adhesive rubber feet. Closer inspection showed that the pawl of the advancing/return section was barely moving. With the application of WD40 using a small brush loosened the gummed up oil/grease and with some more cleaning and light machine oil it was behaving as it should. Next was to get it working as a console (it works fine in local mode, puncher and reader do what they need to do). I have one of these DLV11-KB's (EIA/20mA converters), and one of them was already configured for teletype use. The schematic also notes that these can be used for ASR-33 use. A flat mate-n-lok plug was made for the 20mA side, as well as a rs232 cable for the EIA side. Little note here is that the DLV11-KB uses 12V as power, so 2 wires were used to go to a wall wart adapter counter plug. Check power -> ok Check cables -> ok. Set VT220 to 7E2, 110 baud -> ok power on ASR -> ok Hmm, the print-head is constantly hopping and typed chars on the VT do not appear. Then again typed chars on the ASR do show on the VT screen. Ok, power off the ASR, and look at the back of the ASR terminal strip. Ahh, wire 6 & 7 are used other way around, so swapping 2 pins on the mate-n-lok is all what is needed. Power on ASR -> ok, no hopping print-head this time, and chars type on the VT do print on the ASR. Jippy! Only thing what does not work yet is that the paper reader does not start when I flip the switch to the 'start' position (it is a 3 position switch). Any ideas how to make this work? All in all a few hours well spend. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 12 16:12:15 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 17:12:15 -0400 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 12, 2016, at 3:55 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > ... > Closer inspection showed that the pawl of the advancing/return section > was barely moving. With the application of WD40 using a small brush > loosened the gummed up oil/grease and with some more cleaning and light > machine oil it was behaving as it should. Be sure to remove the WD40 thoroughly. It's occasionally claimed to be a lubricant, but that is not true at all. If you use it as one, you will end up with exactly the problem you ran into. paul From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 16:55:09 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 17:55:09 -0400 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: On 12 April 2016 at 15:55, E. Groenenberg wrote: > First thing I did was to replace the gooed up rubber hammer, only to > find out that my replacements were also starting to deteriorate :( > (but still stiff enough to be usable for some print test). > I can either use a piece of hose or one of those little self adhesive > rubber feet. > So, first thing's first, I'll going to provide you with this link the the GreenKeys mailing list. They know pretty much everything about Teletype machines, and more importantly one of the list members there has started making reproduction/replacements for the old Teletype print hammers. Don't go with the adhesive rubber foot, it'll fly off and either hit you, or lodge in the mechanism and you'll have a bad time. Rubber hose is the best, unless you decide to buy a new hammer. > Only thing what does not work yet is that the paper reader does not start > when I flip the switch to the 'start' position (it is a 3 position switch). > Any ideas how to make this work? > If it has the DEC LT33 modifications, which might be the case if it used to be part of a DEC system, or was similarly modified by other manufacturers it will have a reader run relay, which can be triggered on the DLV11-K. I don't have the pinouts to hand to tell you exactly which one. If the reader run relay isn't energized the reader won't run; it's how the computer did flow control when using the reader. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From mazzinia at tin.it Tue Apr 12 17:20:45 2016 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 00:20:45 +0200 Subject: R: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <00fd01d194ef$fd4cd2e0$f7e678a0$@tin.it> Message-ID: <010b01d19509$8f76d8f0$ae648ad0$@tin.it> Wiped drives is something you can live with ( if you get the licenses - paper sheets btw ). Destroyed drives is another thing. As/400 require specific IBM scsi hard disks. You cannot use anything else... don't even try to put a normal hd inside. And never try to format an as/400 hd in a normal pc, or byebye (particular amount of bytes/sector, in theory no way to do outside of the factory) -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di devin davison Inviato: marted? 12 aprile 2016 21:47 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 Yeah i wanted to talk directly with the place it is coming from but they are being very secretive and swear that all the drives have to be wiped. they said some drives had to be destroyed. I believe it is coming from Harris, so it makes sense. Still trying to get every single scrap of paper and tapes to go with it if i can. On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > The main issue with As/400 is related with licenses, os included. > There are some models (relatively old) that can run unlicensed (and > going back in time, some required a special tape unique to that serial > number, to be reinstalled. Fat chances of getting a copy of that from > ibm now, so in those cases is very important that such tape is present > in the goodies), otherwise I would say that if they pick up the "toy" > from the current workplace, they have to collect all the sw/ibm > media/license papers related to it. > > There's more than one way to get an (heavy) paperweight. > > What to expect... is a bit more flat than zos, this is something used > for erp/billing/bank terminals to say something. > There's just os/400 that can be installed on an as/400, forget linux > or etc ( if an iseries, more recent, aix is also an option, and linux > too ) > > > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Matt > Patoray > Inviato: marted? 12 aprile 2016 20:52 > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 > > Hello, > > I do believe Connor is on here. I will say this the IBM Mainframes and > the Large AS/400's are quite different. If you can get a picture of > the front plate where it says AS/400 there will be the model nuimber > under that and we can figure out what you have from that. > > Once you have that info, we can have a better idea what you are in for > :) As such can help you accordingly. > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 2:09 PM, devin davison > wrote: > > > A local recycling center called me and said they are to pick up an > > ibm > > as/400 mainframe from a working environment. I left a deposit and am > > scheduled to go pick it up in the next day or so. > > > > I am not even sure of what all it comes with or what can be run on > > the machine. Any advice in advance on what to expect? > > > > I realize there are a ton of different as/400 models, they were not > > very descript on the phone, so i have no way of knowing till i go > > pick it up what exactly it is or what it comes with. > > > > I rushed on dropping a deposit on the thing. The other guy at the > > place is notorious for ripping boards with shiny chips out and > > trying to pass off the dismantled machine to me. I asked for a > > picture of the thing on site before it is moved. If it is not all > > there I am not > purchasing it. > > > > From the description it sounds like it comes with some terminals and > > printers too. could be interesting. > > > > Is the guy that put the ibm mainframe in his basement on the list? > > ive been wanting to talk to him. > > > > > > --Devin > > > > > > -- > Matt Patoray > Owner, MSP Productions > KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Apr 12 17:24:17 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:24:17 +0000 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>, Message-ID: WD-40 is not a lubricant or a solvent, although it can work as one at times, but only for a short time. When it dries it leaves behind a waxy substance, also no a lubricant. It is a water dispersant used to get condensation out of an ignition system. It isn't a particularly good rust protector either. I've seen cases were it actually causes rust corrosion. Please don't put it on your teletype unless you intend to immediately rinse it off with solvent. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Christian Gauger-Cosgrove Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 2:55 PM To: ed at groenenberg.net; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: A fruitfull evening On 12 April 2016 at 15:55, E. Groenenberg wrote: > First thing I did was to replace the gooed up rubber hammer, only to > find out that my replacements were also starting to deteriorate :( > (but still stiff enough to be usable for some print test). > I can either use a piece of hose or one of those little self adhesive > rubber feet. > So, first thing's first, I'll going to provide you with this link the the GreenKeys mailing list. They know pretty much everything about Teletype machines, and more importantly one of the list members there has started making reproduction/replacements for the old Teletype print hammers. Don't go with the adhesive rubber foot, it'll fly off and either hit you, or lodge in the mechanism and you'll have a bad time. Rubber hose is the best, unless you decide to buy a new hammer. > Only thing what does not work yet is that the paper reader does not start > when I flip the switch to the 'start' position (it is a 3 position switch). > Any ideas how to make this work? > If it has the DEC LT33 modifications, which might be the case if it used to be part of a DEC system, or was similarly modified by other manufacturers it will have a reader run relay, which can be triggered on the DLV11-K. I don't have the pinouts to hand to tell you exactly which one. If the reader run relay isn't energized the reader won't run; it's how the computer did flow control when using the reader. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 12 18:18:14 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 16:18:14 -0700 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> On 04/12/2016 03:24 PM, dwight wrote: > Please don't put it on your teletype unless you intend to > immediately rinse it off with solvent. What Dwight said. Kerosene or paint thinner makes a good cleaning solvent. SAE 5 "white" oil is a good lightweight lubricant; often used to lube sewing machines. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 12 19:05:40 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 20:05:40 -0400 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <9E4A3040-F9A7-45BD-9E06-8565D7A427C3@comcast.net> > On Apr 12, 2016, at 6:24 PM, dwight wrote: > > WD-40 is not a lubricant or a solvent, although it can work as one > at times, but only for a short time. > When it dries it leaves behind a waxy substance, also no a lubricant. > It is a water dispersant used to get condensation out of an ignition > system. I suppose it might do that, but that's not its main purpose. Its main purpose is to loosen rusted and otherwise stuck fasteners and shafts. > It isn't a particularly good rust protector either. I've seen cases > were it actually causes rust corrosion. > Please don't put it on your teletype unless you intend to immediately > rinse it off with solvent. Exactly. paul From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 19:06:27 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 19:06:27 -0500 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> Message-ID: The 'Zoom Spout' Turbine Oil (Supco, other mfrs.) is brilliant for lubricating any fine mechanisms. It's also quite inexpensive, and the extensible spout is worth the price of the bottle alone. The oil contained is crystal-clear and somewhere in the 5-10W range, non-detergent and will not gum up. Here's another little jewel, that no mechanical geek worth their salt should be without - the General Tools 589 Precision Oiler. This is a high-quality, leak-proof refillable oiler, that allows very precise dispensing of even the smallest droplets. As an example, eBay item #131703297238 On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 6:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/12/2016 03:24 PM, dwight wrote: > > > Please don't put it on your teletype unless you intend to > > immediately rinse it off with solvent. > > What Dwight said. > > Kerosene or paint thinner makes a good cleaning solvent. SAE 5 "white" > oil is a good lightweight lubricant; often used to lube sewing machines. > > --Chuck > From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 19:19:39 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 19:19:39 -0500 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> Message-ID: "I suppose it might do that, but that's not its main purpose. Its main purpose is to loosen rusted and otherwise stuck fasteners and shafts." Here I thought that the 'WD' stood for Water Dispersant (version 40). Also, while I have no use for the stuff myself, I've certainly never encountered any of the 'horror stories' about it turning to wax, gum, +attracting+ moisture and fostering rust, ad nauseam. You want a common household product horror story, look into Armor All. For dog's sake, keep that stuff off your vinyl dashboards, car & cycle tires, anything of that sort. If you want plastic or rubber to shine, get a bottle of plastic / rubber dressing from a reputable supplier. On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > The 'Zoom Spout' Turbine Oil (Supco, other mfrs.) is brilliant for > lubricating any fine mechanisms. It's also quite inexpensive, and the > extensible spout is worth the price of the bottle alone. The oil contained > is crystal-clear and somewhere in the 5-10W range, non-detergent and will > not gum up. > > Here's another little jewel, that no mechanical geek worth their salt > should be without - the General Tools 589 Precision Oiler. This is a > high-quality, leak-proof refillable oiler, that allows very precise > dispensing of even the smallest droplets. > > As an example, eBay item #131703297238 > > > > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 6:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 04/12/2016 03:24 PM, dwight wrote: >> >> > Please don't put it on your teletype unless you intend to >> > immediately rinse it off with solvent. >> >> What Dwight said. >> >> Kerosene or paint thinner makes a good cleaning solvent. SAE 5 "white" >> oil is a good lightweight lubricant; often used to lube sewing machines. >> >> --Chuck >> > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 12 19:28:36 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 20:28:36 -0400 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> Message-ID: <19BF15E3-9945-4ACC-89F5-ECAE5EF6A45B@comcast.net> > On Apr 12, 2016, at 8:19 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > "I suppose it might do that, but that's not its main purpose. Its main > purpose is to loosen rusted and otherwise stuck fasteners and shafts." > > Here I thought that the 'WD' stood for Water Dispersant (version 40). Also, > while I have no use for the stuff myself, I've certainly never encountered > any of the 'horror stories' about it turning to wax, gum, +attracting+ > moisture and fostering rust, ad nauseam. Yes, it does stand for water displacing, but I figured that refers to the water that's in the rust of rusted parts. For drying ignition parts I've seen silicone spray; using a flammable spray like WD-40 seems a bit iffy. Also, one finds WD-40 sold (in bulk as well as cans) in machinery catalogs, far from car ignitions. And I've seen plenty of warnings against WD-40 in forums discussing metalworking machinery and firearms, or gunsmithing reference books. paul From js at cimmeri.com Tue Apr 12 19:38:24 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 19:38:24 -0500 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> Message-ID: <570D9500.6000203@cimmeri.com> > On Apr 12, 2016, at 8:19 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > "I suppose it might do that, but that's not its main purpose. Its main > purpose is to loosen rusted and otherwise stuck fasteners and shafts." That is *not* the main purpose of WD-40, nor does it even work well for that purpose *at all*. Rather, a penetrating lubricant like PB Blaster is for loosening rusted fasteners. WD-40 is a very misunderstood -- albeit still very useful -- product. - j. From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 19:39:05 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 19:39:05 -0500 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: <19BF15E3-9945-4ACC-89F5-ECAE5EF6A45B@comcast.net> References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> <19BF15E3-9945-4ACC-89F5-ECAE5EF6A45B@comcast.net> Message-ID: I've used WD-40 on multiple occasions to 'rescue' older motorcycle and automotive ignition systems that died in rain or heavy humidity. In all cases, these were the older point-and-coil type systems, not the more modern HEI systems (found in post-1976 in most cars & light trucks, post-1980-82 in most cycles). Just wipe off as much water as you can, and hose-on the WD-40. I don't think it ever failed to get the machine running, until proper repairs could be made to the ignition system. Silicone spray is also excellent as a preservative and waterproofing for ignitions, but I've never tried it (or had it on-hand) for a roadside rescue. On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:28 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Apr 12, 2016, at 8:19 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > > > "I suppose it might do that, but that's not its main purpose. Its main > > purpose is to loosen rusted and otherwise stuck fasteners and shafts." > > > > Here I thought that the 'WD' stood for Water Dispersant (version 40). > Also, > > while I have no use for the stuff myself, I've certainly never > encountered > > any of the 'horror stories' about it turning to wax, gum, +attracting+ > > moisture and fostering rust, ad nauseam. > > Yes, it does stand for water displacing, but I figured that refers to the > water that's in the rust of rusted parts. For drying ignition parts I've > seen silicone spray; using a flammable spray like WD-40 seems a bit iffy. > Also, one finds WD-40 sold (in bulk as well as cans) in machinery catalogs, > far from car ignitions. > > And I've seen plenty of warnings against WD-40 in forums discussing > metalworking machinery and firearms, or gunsmithing reference books. > > paul > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 12 19:46:31 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 20:46:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A fruitfull evening Message-ID: <20160413004631.E24D418C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: drlegendre > I've certainly never encountered any of the 'horror stories' about it > ... +attracting+ moisture and fostering rust, ad nauseam. I have personally experienced this; but in WD40's defence, it depends _how_ it is used. If you spray it on lightly, and wipe off the excess (leaving the item feeling only very slightly 'oily' to the touch, but that's all), it is indeed a great preservative. If, on the other hand, you leave great pools of the stuff on something, and let the thing sit for a long time, that _will_ create rust. BTW, WD-40 was actually invented to protect the un-painted metal skin of the Atlas ICBM. I believe that the details are in: John L. Chapman, "Atlas: The Story of a Missile" (a great book in its own right). NOel From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 12 20:07:43 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 18:07:43 -0700 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> Message-ID: <570D9BDF.3090806@sydex.com> > Here's another little jewel, that no mechanical geek worth their > salt should be without - the General Tools 589 Precision Oiler. This > is a high-quality, leak-proof refillable oiler, that allows very > precise dispensing of even the smallest droplets. I use a plain medical glass syringe with a fine blunt tip needle for that. I've also found that orthodontic wire cutters work very well as flush cutters (and almost as inexpensive as the regular electronics kind). For a light oil, I dig into my supply of brass instrument valve oil. All types are available, from regular petroleum-base to some pretty exotic synthetics. Go to, say, Amazon and search for "Trumpet valve oil". --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 20:25:29 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 20:25:29 -0500 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: <570D9BDF.3090806@sydex.com> References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> <570D9BDF.3090806@sydex.com> Message-ID: "I use a plain medical glass syringe with a fine blunt tip needle for that. " Hey, what works, works - right? I like the General oiler as it's essentially leak-proof, and can be carried in the pocket (or left for months in the toolbox) with no worry about drips & stains. One other neat feature, is that each operation of the plunger dispenses a small, metered amount of lube to the dispensing tip. You have to lean on the plunger for like 4-5 secs to actually get a "drop". "For a light oil, I dig into my supply of brass instrument valve oil. All types are available, from regular petroleum-base to some pretty exotic synthetics. Go to, say, Amazon and search for "Trumpet valve oil"." Once again, it's what works. There are so many types, sources & grades of lubricating oil out there, it boggles the best of minds. Enough material for numerous doctoral theses! On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 8:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Here's another little jewel, that no mechanical geek worth their > > salt should be without - the General Tools 589 Precision Oiler. This > > is a high-quality, leak-proof refillable oiler, that allows very > > precise dispensing of even the smallest droplets. > > I use a plain medical glass syringe with a fine blunt tip needle for > that. I've also found that orthodontic wire cutters work very well as > flush cutters (and almost as inexpensive as the regular electronics kind). > > For a light oil, I dig into my supply of brass instrument valve oil. > All types are available, from regular petroleum-base to some pretty > exotic synthetics. Go to, say, Amazon and search for "Trumpet valve oil". > > --Chuck > > From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Tue Apr 12 20:59:35 2016 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 20:59:35 -0500 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> Devin, On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 02:09:00PM -0400, devin davison wrote: > A local recycling center called me and said they are to pick up an ibm > as/400 mainframe from a working environment. An AS/400 is a mini, not a mainframe. > I left a deposit and am scheduled to go pick it up in the next day or so. Congratulations!! Where I work we've continued to use the name AS/400 for our newer boxes, even though IBM keeps changing the name. At home I have a small 9406-270 in my living room. I think it's technically an iSeries. Sadly I didn't get license keys with it, so I have to reinstall the OS every 70 days. It's powered down at the moment and overdue for a reinstall. It also has some flaky memory, but seems to recover gracefully from the memory errors without crashing. I'd love to have a true AS/400, if I had the room and power for one. > I am not even sure of what all it comes with or what can be run on the > machine. Any advice in advance on what to expect? Depending on its vintage it would run OS/400, i5/OS, or IBM i. > From the description it sounds like it comes with some terminals and > printers too. could be interesting. As others have said, be sure to get all the cables, etc. The terminals and printers will be connected with twinax cables. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 21:13:39 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:13:39 -0400 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: On Apr 12, 2016 9:59 PM, "Kevin Monceaux" wrote: > Depending on its vintage it would run OS/400, i5/OS, or IBM I > Post-1998 or so machines will also run Linux Mike From chd at chdickman.com Tue Apr 12 21:29:50 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:29:50 -0400 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: <570D9BDF.3090806@sydex.com> References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> <570D9BDF.3090806@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 9:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I use a plain medical glass syringe with a fine blunt tip needle for > that. I've also found that orthodontic wire cutters work very well as > flush cutters (and almost as inexpensive as the regular electronics kind). A couple of weeks ago, like the OP, I got my 33 ASR out of storage and cleaned and oiled it. I went to the local farm supply store and got the biggest needles they had and some syringes. Worked perfectly. I told the clerk it was for oiling clocks. I thought that was close enough without requiring a long explanation. Thankfully needles aren't controlled in this state. I used 20 weight non-detergent motor oil. KS7470 isn't available. I do miss the smell. (a different) chuck From jws at jwsss.com Tue Apr 12 21:49:00 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 19:49:00 -0700 Subject: A couple of afternoons in Austin, Tx Message-ID: <570DB39C.3020101@jwsss.com> any places to visit while I'm around? just visiting and would like to see if there are any surplus spots, or folks to say hi to. thanks Jim From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 12 22:18:24 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:18:24 -0500 Subject: A couple of afternoons in Austin, Tx In-Reply-To: <570DB39C.3020101@jwsss.com> References: <570DB39C.3020101@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <570DBA80.1000509@pico-systems.com> On 04/12/2016 09:49 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > any places to visit while I'm around? just visiting and > would like to see if there are any surplus spots, or folks > to say hi to. > TX/Rx labs in Houston is VERY interesting. A hackerspace, but with a lot of emphasis on electronics, too. They have a pick and place machine, one guy there has a fantastic electronics shop. They have a machine shop with some CNC machines that they retrofitted. I did see a PDP-8 in the mezzanine of the front room. Lots of 3D printers, wood shop, bike shop, welding, arts and crafts and sewing, and on and on. This is probably only of interest if you are flying in/out through Houston, however. Jon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Apr 12 23:05:34 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 04:05:34 +0000 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> <570D9BDF.3090806@sydex.com>, Message-ID: I've read, but not tried, that transmission fluid and acetone makes the best rust solvent. I wonder if it is F type? Dwight From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 23:17:11 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 23:17:11 -0500 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> <570D9BDF.3090806@sydex.com> Message-ID: Not this again.. ;-) In fact, the +original+ recipe was a mix of acetone and PSF (power steering fluid). Look it up. I've tried the latter.. and the two simply +will not+ mix. They separate like oil & water, for some reason. Can't speak as to the acetone / ATF mix, so the whole thing remains a mystery. Just get a can of Kroil (lol). On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 11:05 PM, dwight wrote: > I've read, but not tried, that transmission fluid and acetone > makes the best rust solvent. > I wonder if it is F type? > Dwight > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Apr 12 23:24:24 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 04:24:24 +0000 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> <570D9BDF.3090806@sydex.com>, , Message-ID: As for waxy coating, I work on old clocks as a hobby. I've had to clean several movements covered in WD40. About the only thing that cuts it is more WD40. I almost always find corrosion anyplace brass and iron are in contact. Dwight From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 23:28:17 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:28:17 -0700 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> <570D9BDF.3090806@sydex.com> Message-ID: What's more fun than a top posting / bottom posting discussion? A WD-40 discussion. We've heard it all before. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 23:42:24 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 23:42:24 -0500 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > An AS/400 is a mini, not a mainframe. In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Apr 12 21:38:41 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 19:38:41 -0700 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: For replacement 33 parts, join the greenkeys list. Greenkeys is a slang name for Teletypes, When the went to the newer style keycaps in the 40's or maybe the 50's the color was green. A member had a injection mold made and a run of the hammer buttons made. He has also made or is making other 33 parts. A quick solution is to use a piece of PVC tubing. Works pretty well. On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 12:55 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > So after cleaning up and reorganizing my computer/hobby room I thought it > was time to get the asr33 working again. It has a stuck carriage (at the > right end), and it would only go back after repeated CR's. > > First thing I did was to replace the gooed up rubber hammer, only to > find out that my replacements were also starting to deteriorate :( > (but still stiff enough to be usable for some print test). > I can either use a piece of hose or one of those little self adhesive > rubber feet. > > Closer inspection showed that the pawl of the advancing/return section > was barely moving. With the application of WD40 using a small brush > loosened the gummed up oil/grease and with some more cleaning and light > machine oil it was behaving as it should. > > Next was to get it working as a console (it works fine in local mode, > puncher and reader do what they need to do). > I have one of these DLV11-KB's (EIA/20mA converters), and one of them > was already configured for teletype use. The schematic also notes that > these can be used for ASR-33 use. > > A flat mate-n-lok plug was made for the 20mA side, as well as a rs232 cable > for the EIA side. Little note here is that the DLV11-KB uses 12V as power, > so 2 wires were used to go to a wall wart adapter counter plug. > > Check power -> ok > Check cables -> ok. > Set VT220 to 7E2, 110 baud -> ok > power on ASR -> ok > > Hmm, the print-head is constantly hopping and typed chars on the VT > do not appear. Then again typed chars on the ASR do show on the VT screen. > > Ok, power off the ASR, and look at the back of the ASR terminal strip. > Ahh, wire 6 & 7 are used other way around, so swapping 2 pins on the > mate-n-lok is all what is needed. > > Power on ASR -> ok, no hopping print-head this time, and chars type on > the VT do print on the ASR. Jippy! > > Only thing what does not work yet is that the paper reader does not start > when I flip the switch to the 'start' position (it is a 3 position switch). > Any ideas how to make this work? > > All in all a few hours well spend. > > Ed > -- > Ik email, dus ik besta. > BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN > LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz > > > > From ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 00:26:29 2016 From: ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com (Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 01:26:29 -0400 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Jason T wrote: >> An AS/400 is a mini, not a mainframe. > In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." Which is a fancy word for "unusually heavy for its size". -Ian From ed at groenenberg.net Wed Apr 13 00:26:43 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 07:26:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <32363.81.30.38.129.1460525203.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Tue, April 12, 2016 23:12, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Apr 12, 2016, at 3:55 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> ... >> Closer inspection showed that the pawl of the advancing/return section >> was barely moving. With the application of WD40 using a small brush >> loosened the gummed up oil/grease and with some more cleaning and light >> machine oil it was behaving as it should. > > Be sure to remove the WD40 thoroughly. It's occasionally claimed to be a > lubricant, but that is not true at all. If you use it as one, you will > end up with exactly the problem you ran into. > > paul Yes, I was aware of that, after that part of the mechanism was loose and been working for half an hour, I removed as much as possible using a few tipped cotton buds and applied some light machine oil. As the rest of the machine was working more or less fine, I greased and oiled the other points as well. Only the keyboard T levers needed some lubrication, as some of them did not move freely. I used a little bit of silicone oil which I applied with a very small brush and after a few movements their movements was much better. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From ed at groenenberg.net Wed Apr 13 00:36:08 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 07:36:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <38476.81.30.38.129.1460525768.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Tue, April 12, 2016 23:55, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 12 April 2016 at 15:55, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> First thing I did was to replace the gooed up rubber hammer, only to >> find out that my replacements were also starting to deteriorate :( >> (but still stiff enough to be usable for some print test). >> I can either use a piece of hose or one of those little self adhesive >> rubber feet. >> > So, first thing's first, I'll going to provide you with this link the > the GreenKeys mailing list. They know pretty much everything about > Teletype machines, and more importantly one of the list members there > has started making reproduction/replacements for the old Teletype > print hammers. > > Don't go with the adhesive rubber foot, it'll fly off and either hit > you, or lodge in the mechanism and you'll have a bad time. Rubber hose > is the best, unless you decide to buy a new hammer. > > >> Only thing what does not work yet is that the paper reader does not >> start >> when I flip the switch to the 'start' position (it is a 3 position >> switch). >> Any ideas how to make this work? >> > If it has the DEC LT33 modifications, which might be the case if it > used to be part of a DEC system, or was similarly modified by other > manufacturers it will have a reader run relay, which can be triggered > on the DLV11-K. I don't have the pinouts to hand to tell you exactly > which one. If the reader run relay isn't energized the reader won't > run; it's how the computer did flow control when using the reader. > I know of the Greenkeys list, I joined them 2 weeks ago. I'm going to look for a proper hose in a few days. I remember that I used some years go one of those rubber feet, and it did work well but then I bought some parts from nc.com (when they did stock much more than today), and acquired a few original rubber hammer pads. But all the pads I have have become useless now due to gooeing. It does not have the LT33 modification, although I have seen one once. That punchread mechanism had an extra position. My machine is a more or less 'standard' ASR33. I was not aware of the possible reproduction of rubber hammer pads, I certainly would be interested in some. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From ed at groenenberg.net Wed Apr 13 00:42:35 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 07:42:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> Message-ID: <32506.81.30.38.129.1460526155.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Wed, April 13, 2016 02:06, drlegendre . wrote: > The 'Zoom Spout' Turbine Oil (Supco, other mfrs.) is brilliant for > lubricating any fine mechanisms. It's also quite inexpensive, and the > extensible spout is worth the price of the bottle alone. The oil contained > is crystal-clear and somewhere in the 5-10W range, non-detergent and will > not gum up. > > Here's another little jewel, that no mechanical geek worth their salt > should be without - the General Tools 589 Precision Oiler. This is a > high-quality, leak-proof refillable oiler, that allows very precise > dispensing of even the smallest droplets. > > As an example, eBay item #131703297238 > > > > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 6:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 04/12/2016 03:24 PM, dwight wrote: >> >> > Please don't put it on your teletype unless you intend to >> > immediately rinse it off with solvent. >> >> What Dwight said. >> >> Kerosene or paint thinner makes a good cleaning solvent. SAE 5 "white" >> oil is a good lightweight lubricant; often used to lube sewing machines. >> >> --Chuck >> > Those are neat. I'll look for a similar one here locally. There is still a sewing machine shop/repair shop nearby, I 'll go there to add an extra bottle of oil to my supplies. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 13 02:13:12 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 09:13:12 +0200 Subject: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: <38476.81.30.38.129.1460525768.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <38476.81.30.38.129.1460525768.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: I have a supply of the new hammer pads in the UK. Their maker sent them to me for distribution in the zUK and Europe. I think it is about $7 for 10 (would need to check, but it is around that price) Regards Rob Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: E. Groenenberg Sent: 13 April 2016 08:41 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: A fruitfull evening On Tue, April 12, 2016 23:55, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 12 April 2016 at 15:55, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> First thing I did was to replace the gooed up rubber hammer, only to >> find out that my replacements were also starting to deteriorate :( >> (but still stiff enough to be usable for some print test). >> I can either use a piece of hose or one of those little self adhesive >> rubber feet. >> > So, first thing's first, I'll going to provide you with this link the > the GreenKeys mailing list. They know pretty much everything about > Teletype machines, and more importantly one of the list members there > has started making reproduction/replacements for the old Teletype > print hammers. > > Don't go with the adhesive rubber foot, it'll fly off and either hit > you, or lodge in the mechanism and you'll have a bad time. Rubber hose > is the best, unless you decide to buy a new hammer. > > >> Only thing what does not work yet is that the paper reader does not >> start >> when I flip the switch to the 'start' position (it is a 3 position >> switch). >> Any ideas how to make this work? >> > If it has the DEC LT33 modifications, which might be the case if it > used to be part of a DEC system, or was similarly modified by other > manufacturers it will have a reader run relay, which can be triggered > on the DLV11-K. I don't have the pinouts to hand to tell you exactly > which one. If the reader run relay isn't energized the reader won't > run; it's how the computer did flow control when using the reader. > I know of the Greenkeys list, I joined them 2 weeks ago. I'm going to look for a proper hose in a few days. I remember that I used some years go one of those rubber feet, and it did work well but then I bought some parts from nc.com (when they did stock much more than today), and acquired a few original rubber hammer pads. But all the pads I have have become useless now due to gooeing. It does not have the LT33 modification, although I have seen one once. That punchread mechanism had an extra position. My machine is a more or less 'standard' ASR33. I was not aware of the possible reproduction of rubber hammer pads, I certainly would be interested in some. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 07:03:18 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 08:03:18 -0400 Subject: DEC RK05 HEPA Filters Message-ID: I just put my last new HEPA filter in an RK05 that I am working on. There are two styles of HEPA filters for the RK05. The original version is just a box. The newer version has the inlet and outlet plenums as part of the HEPA filter, and connects to the blower and a rubber elbow. The one that I just installed was marked EQUIV 1212175. The DEC part number for the filter is 12-12175. A quick Google search showed that there are 6 new ones on ebay for $35 each. Just search for the DEC part number 1212175. -- Michael Thompson From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 08:59:52 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 09:59:52 -0400 Subject: DEC RK05 HEPA Filters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 8:03 AM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > I just put my last new HEPA filter in an RK05 that I am working on. There > are two styles of HEPA filters for the RK05. The original version is just a > box. The newer version has the inlet and outlet plenums as part of the HEPA > filter, and connects to the blower and a rubber elbow. The one that I just > installed was marked EQUIV 1212175. The DEC part number for the filter is > 12-12175. > > A quick Google search showed that there are 6 new ones on ebay for $35 > each. Just search for the DEC part number 1212175. > > -- > Michael Thompson > I replaced my filters a little while ago, I was concerned about original filters' deterioration, perhaps these will have decomposed over time even if not in use. So I found a newly-produced filter, documented here: http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=588&tid=1 But basically 3M Filtrete #0412560 carbon pre-filter cut to match the original, from a tracing. Bill. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From wulfman at wulfman.com Wed Apr 13 09:28:56 2016 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 07:28:56 -0700 Subject: old stuff Message-ID: <570E57A8.2060805@wulfman.com> old stuff in the news http://electronicdesign.com/embedded/qa-evan-koblentz-talks-about-vintage-computer-federation?NL=ED-001&Issue=ED-001_20160413_ED-001_944&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1_b&utm_rid=CPG05000000127642&utm_campaign=5851&utm_medium=email&elq2=9b5cc472b42e4e158e087e66274f5deb http://www.vcfed.org/ -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 09:30:30 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 10:30:30 -0400 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: I called in again yesterday night, still not ready to pick up though. The guy assured me the drives were being wiped not removed, which is good. How does the whold 70 day licence thing work. Is that a specific limitation to os/400 or built into the hardware of the machine itself? From ik at yvanj.me Wed Apr 13 09:41:23 2016 From: ik at yvanj.me (Yvan Janssens) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 15:41:23 +0100 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: Hi Devin, I myself have several hobbyist machines, and I know a few other people who do. The 70 day timebomb is set by the OS and the different software packages you install. So, let's say, you install the OS, the development tools and Client Access. Each of them will have their own 70 day time bomb, after which you will have to enter a license key which is tied to your hardware serial number (and some other things). The 70 day time period starts when you first start a product, so let's say, you only used Client Access on the 10th day after you started the OS, then that's when your 70 day time period starts for that product. After the 70 day time period ends, you'll have to reinstall. It is very likely your machine will come with a tape drive. If possible, try to see if you can find tapes for it (maybe they come with it?). This way you can create a distribution tape from your installation CDs, which makes reinstalling a lot more painless - the OS comes on six or so CDs, which you'll have to swap during install. You'll probably lose about half a day to a day to go through that. As said before, try to look for the license keys in the documentation from the machine. They are in the format *XXXXX-XXXXXXX-XXXXX, *and can be used to disable that time bomb. If you can, try to pick it up when someone who actually knows the machine is around so you can ask someone knowledgeable. You want to ask for LICKEYs. Wrt. the terminals, make sure you get all the cabling. They use twinaxial cabling, and you'll need the pig tails, "bricks",... . It's not standard stuff, so it's unlikely you'd be able to make your own from what you can find in your drawer. Also make sure to grab the terminal keyboards, depending on how old the terminal is it might either use an RJ-45 plug, or a DIN one. These keyboards use a modified version of the protocol PS/2 keyboards use, and some terminals can survive PS/2 keyboards with the right plug soldered on them, but not all of them do. Your mileage will vary. Also, if you connect the machine to the internet, make sure to change all default passwords. There are quite a few. Y. 2016-04-13 15:30 GMT+01:00 devin davison : > I called in again yesterday night, still not ready to pick up though. The > guy assured me the drives were being wiped not removed, which is good. > > How does the whold 70 day licence thing work. Is that a specific limitation > to os/400 or built into the hardware of the machine itself? > -- Sent using CompuServe 1.22 From supervinx at libero.it Wed Apr 13 10:09:12 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 17:09:12 +0200 Subject: R: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 Message-ID: Even if your time is expired (there are some hacks to avoid this...) you can log into the system as user QSECOFR through the console (terminal 0 on twinax line 0). For an hobbyistic use sometimes it's enough... From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 13 10:13:07 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 11:13:07 -0400 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <27487E6C-8C0E-4751-A40E-D2786452540C@comcast.net> > On Apr 13, 2016, at 10:30 AM, devin davison wrote: > > I called in again yesterday night, still not ready to pick up though. The > guy assured me the drives were being wiped not removed, which is good. You should check what "wiped" means. If they mean "degauss" as in running the drives over a magnetic media bulk erase machine, that's equivalent to destroying them because it wipes not just the data but also the formatting. If by "wipe" they mean simply "write zeroes or equivalent over all sectors of the drives" then things are ok. paul From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Apr 13 10:17:31 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 10:17:31 -0500 Subject: A couple of afternoons in Austin, Tx In-Reply-To: <570DB39C.3020101@jwsss.com> References: <570DB39C.3020101@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20160413151731.GA6225@lonesome.com> Nothing too great in the way of surplus, but you could try Discount Electronics. The store on the north side tends to have more used equipment. If you just want to get together and hang out let me know. I'm on the far west side of town. Mostly what I have is newer servers, though. But telling war stories is always fun. I'm willing to come into town. mcl From supervinx at libero.it Wed Apr 13 10:31:18 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 17:31:18 +0200 Subject: R: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 Message-ID: Well... AS/400 scsi drives are recognized by the string IBM AS/400, during the inquiry phase. They can be used in a standard PC, if reformatted at 512 bytes/sector, since OS/400 use 520 bytes/sector. If they come unformatted or degaussed, you can reformat it at 520 under a *nix system with sg_utils (e.g. Linux) and used (I tried it successfully on different AS/400 systems). From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Wed Apr 13 10:34:27 2016 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 15:34:27 +0000 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AEF7267@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> I believe it's 528 bytes these days... Depends on the vintage. -Ben ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of supervinx [supervinx at libero.it] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 8:31 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: R: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 Well... AS/400 scsi drives are recognized by the string IBM AS/400, during the inquiry phase. They can be used in a standard PC, if reformatted at 512 bytes/sector, since OS/400 use 520 bytes/sector. If they come unformatted or degaussed, you can reformat it at 520 under a *nix system with sg_utils (e.g. Linux) and used (I tried it successfully on different AS/400 systems). From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 13 10:35:33 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 11:35:33 -0400 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Apr 13, 2016, at 11:31 AM, supervinx wrote: > > Well... AS/400 scsi drives are recognized by the string IBM AS/400, during the inquiry phase. > They can be used in a standard PC, if reformatted at 512 bytes/sector, since OS/400 use 520 bytes/sector. > If they come unformatted or degaussed, you can reformat it at 520 under a *nix system with sg_utils (e.g. Linux) and used (I tried it successfully on different AS/400 systems). I thought someone said you couldn't reformat AS/400 drives? Also, degaussing would destroy the servo data, assuming the drives have that which I expect they do (pretty much everything newer than an RK05 does). Only servo writing machines in media factories can restore that stuff if it's destroyed or damaged. paul From echristopherson at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 11:04:50 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 11:04:50 -0500 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <00fd01d194ef$fd4cd2e0$f7e678a0$@tin.it> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 2:46 PM, devin davison wrote: > some drives had to be destroyed. I believe it is coming from > Harris, so it makes sense. > What Harris is this? The one that made machines running Vulcan OS? -- Eric Christopherson From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Wed Apr 13 11:27:01 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 11:27:01 -0500 Subject: A couple of afternoons in Austin, Tx In-Reply-To: <570DBA80.1000509@pico-systems.com> References: <570DB39C.3020101@jwsss.com> <570DBA80.1000509@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 04/12/2016 09:49 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > >> >> any places to visit while I'm around? just visiting and would like to >> see if there are any surplus spots, or folks to say hi to. >> >> TX/Rx labs in Houston is VERY interesting. A hackerspace, but with a lot > of emphasis on electronics, too. > They have a pick and place machine, one guy there has a fantastic > electronics shop. They have a machine shop with some CNC machines that > they retrofitted. I did see a PDP-8 in the mezzanine of the front room. > > Lots of 3D printers, wood shop, bike shop, welding, arts and crafts and > sewing, and on and on. > > This is probably only of interest if you are flying in/out through > Houston, however. > Yeah, everything is bigger in Texas including the driving distance between cities. Austin to Houston MakeSpace is about 3 hours by car. It would be a good hour from Bush International although Hobby would be probably a 30 minute drive. You have to really want it. If you happen to be into pinball, Austin is home to Pinballz a very nice arcade and pinball place. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 13 12:27:29 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 10:27:29 -0700 Subject: WD-40 (again) was Re: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: <570D9500.6000203@cimmeri.com> References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> <570D9500.6000203@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <570E8181.5030504@bitsavers.org> On 4/12/16 5:38 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> On Apr 12, 2016, at 8:19 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> >> "I suppose it might do that, but that's not its main purpose. Its main >> purpose is to loosen rusted and otherwise stuck fasteners and shafts." > > That is *not* the main purpose of WD-40, nor does it even work well for > that purpose *at all*. Rather, a penetrating lubricant like PB > Blaster is for loosening rusted fasteners. > > WD-40 is a very misunderstood -- albeit still very useful -- product. > > - j. > > "WD-40 is mostly a mix of baby oil, Vaseline, and the goop inside homemade lava lamps." https://web.archive.org/web/20140119014037/http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/magazine/17-05/st_whatsinside https://www.engineeringforchange.org/how-to-make-penetrating-oil/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 13 13:46:55 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 11:46:55 -0700 Subject: WD-40 (again) was Re: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: <570E8181.5030504@bitsavers.org> References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> <570D9500.6000203@cimmeri.com> <570E8181.5030504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <570E941F.5040302@bitsavers.org> On 4/13/16 10:27 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > "WD-40 is mostly a mix of baby oil, Vaseline, and the goop inside > homemade lava lamps." > > https://web.archive.org/web/20140119014037/http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/magazine/17-05/st_whatsinside > > https://www.engineeringforchange.org/how-to-make-penetrating-oil/ > > and down the rat-hole I go again http://weldingweb.com/archive/index.php/t-348771.html From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Apr 13 14:08:31 2016 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 14:08:31 -0500 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <20160413190831.GA11866@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 01:26:29AM -0400, Ian Primus wrote: > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Jason T wrote: > > In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." > > Which is a fancy word for "unusually heavy for its size". That's the truth. In a previous reply I mentioned I have a "small" 9406-270 in my living room. I found it listed on eBay. It was in New York. I'm in Central Texas. It was listed with a flat $50 shipping fee. From the photos and shipping fee I was expecting something small enough to be shipped by UPS or FedEx. I made the seller an offer $50 less than the list price which they accepted, so I basically got free shipping. It was shipped by UPS - UPS Freight. There was no way UPS Fright could get down my driveway so I had to pick it up at their terminal. Fortunately it was shipped on a tiny pallet that just fit in the back of my mini-van. It looks like an oversized tower PC, but is definitely unusually heavy for its size. I have to use a dolly to move it around. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From rickb at bensene.com Wed Apr 13 09:12:56 2016 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 07:12:56 -0700 Subject: DEC RK05 HEPA Filters References: Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A170@mail.bensene.com> Bill Degnan wrote: > > I replaced my filters a little while ago, I was concerned about original filters' > deterioration, perhaps these will have decomposed over time even if not in > use. So I found a newly-produced filter, documented here: > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=588&tid=1 > > But basically 3M Filtrete #0412560 carbon pre-filter cut to match the original, > from a tracing. > The filter Bill replaced is the external dust filter. While good to replace, this isn't the internal HEPA filter that Michael wrote about replacing on his RK05 drives, and that he found available on eBay. The HEPA filter is inside the drive. It is a filter designed to capture very tiny particles yet still be a minimal restriction to airflow. To get to the HEPA filter, you have to take the bottom cover off of the drive. The filter is quite large, and as mentioned, there are two different types depending on the age of the drive. If they haven't been replaced in a long time, they should be replaced, as they eventually do clog up with particulates. When this happens, it can restrict the airflow to the disk platter area, which can lead to dust particles ending up on the platter, and that can result in head crashes, which are most unpleasant. Sadly, the manufacturer of the HEPA filter stopped making them a long time ago, and they can be hard to find. I do believe some manufacturer was making reproductions of them for a time, but I believe that they are no longer doing so. So, finding the filters today can be tricky. -Rick From scaron at diablonet.net Wed Apr 13 09:42:09 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 10:42:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC RK05 HEPA Filters In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A170@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A170@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Apr 2016, Rick Bensene wrote: > Bill Degnan wrote: >> >> I replaced my filters a little while ago, I was concerned about original filters' >> deterioration, perhaps these will have decomposed over time even if not in >> use. So I found a newly-produced filter, documented here: >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=588&tid=1 >> >> But basically 3M Filtrete #0412560 carbon pre-filter cut to match the original, >> from a tracing. >> > The filter Bill replaced is the external dust filter. While good to replace, this isn't the internal HEPA filter that Michael wrote about replacing on his RK05 drives, and that he found available on eBay. > > The HEPA filter is inside the drive. It is a filter designed to capture very tiny particles yet still be a minimal restriction to airflow. To get to the HEPA filter, you have to take the bottom cover off of the drive. The filter is quite large, and as mentioned, there are two different types depending on the age of the drive. If they haven't been replaced in a long time, they should be replaced, as they eventually do clog up with particulates. When this happens, it can restrict the airflow to the disk platter area, which can lead to dust particles ending up on the platter, and that can result in head crashes, which are most unpleasant. Sadly, the manufacturer of the HEPA filter stopped making them a long time ago, and they can be hard to find. I do believe some manufacturer was making reproductions of them for a time, but I believe that they are no longer doing so. So, finding the filters today can be tricky. > > -Rick > I haven't worked on such myself, but please be careful and wear a pair of heavy gloves when servicing the HEPA filters in these old pack drives. I'm reminded of a quote from Ralph Klimek's Burroughs page at Monash: "They used HEPA absolute filters were a biohazard because they could trap bacteria and fungal spores. The manuals warned about avoiding injury, with good reason. Once a used filter I was removing slipped and I grabbed it. I cut my hand on the dirty side of the filter element. The cut became infected and did not heal for nearly half a year! A filter that sat idle for a a couple of weeks would smell like a mushroom farm as the trapped fungal spores would spawn and begin eating the trapped dust." http://vm-118-138-243-85.erc.monash.edu.au/fixing-the-burroughs.html Best, Sean From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 09:43:26 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 10:43:26 -0400 Subject: DEC RK05 HEPA Filters In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A170@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A170@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Bill Degnan wrote: > > > > I replaced my filters a little while ago, I was concerned about original > filters' > > deterioration, perhaps these will have decomposed over time even if not > in > > use. So I found a newly-produced filter, documented here: > > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=588&tid=1 > > > > But basically 3M Filtrete #0412560 carbon pre-filter cut to match the > original, > > from a tracing. > > > The filter Bill replaced is the external dust filter. While good to > replace, this isn't the internal HEPA filter that Michael wrote about > replacing on his RK05 drives, and that he found available on eBay. > > The HEPA filter is inside the drive. It is a filter designed to capture > very tiny particles yet still be a minimal restriction to airflow. To get > to the HEPA filter, you have to take the bottom cover off of the drive. > The filter is quite large, and as mentioned, there are two different types > depending on the age of the drive. If they haven't been replaced in a > long time, they should be replaced, as they eventually do clog up with > particulates. When this happens, it can restrict the airflow to the disk > platter area, which can lead to dust particles ending up on the platter, > and that can result in head crashes, which are most unpleasant. Sadly, > the manufacturer of the HEPA filter stopped making them a long time ago, > and they can be hard to find. I do believe some manufacturer was making > reproductions of them for a time, but I believe that they are no longer > doing so. So, finding the filters today can be tricky. > > -Rick > > Oooo...yes my misunderstanding of what you meant. What he said. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From cramcram at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 11:33:50 2016 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 09:33:50 -0700 Subject: DEC RK05 HEPA Filters In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A170@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: There is a seller on eBay (acpp) that in the past has listed HEPA filters and heads for RK05's. I bought 3 filters from him a couple of years ago. I also had a RK05 with heads that were beyond repair. He had the heads an installed them on the head carriers for an additional fee. I got the impression that he has a ton of RK05 filters; he just doesn't list them on eBay constantly. Marc On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 7:43 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > Bill Degnan wrote: > > > > > > I replaced my filters a little while ago, I was concerned about > original > > filters' > > > deterioration, perhaps these will have decomposed over time even if not > > in > > > use. So I found a newly-produced filter, documented here: > > > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=588&tid=1 > > > > > > But basically 3M Filtrete #0412560 carbon pre-filter cut to match the > > original, > > > from a tracing. > > > > > The filter Bill replaced is the external dust filter. While good to > > replace, this isn't the internal HEPA filter that Michael wrote about > > replacing on his RK05 drives, and that he found available on eBay. > > > > The HEPA filter is inside the drive. It is a filter designed to capture > > very tiny particles yet still be a minimal restriction to airflow. To > get > > to the HEPA filter, you have to take the bottom cover off of the drive. > > The filter is quite large, and as mentioned, there are two different > types > > depending on the age of the drive. If they haven't been replaced in a > > long time, they should be replaced, as they eventually do clog up with > > particulates. When this happens, it can restrict the airflow to the disk > > platter area, which can lead to dust particles ending up on the platter, > > and that can result in head crashes, which are most unpleasant. Sadly, > > the manufacturer of the HEPA filter stopped making them a long time ago, > > and they can be hard to find. I do believe some manufacturer was making > > reproductions of them for a time, but I believe that they are no longer > > doing so. So, finding the filters today can be tricky. > > > > -Rick > > > > > Oooo...yes my misunderstanding of what you meant. What he said. > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > From mazzinia at tin.it Wed Apr 13 15:45:59 2016 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 22:45:59 +0200 Subject: R: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: <20160413190831.GA11866@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> <20160413190831.GA11866@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <009501d195c5$7d3b9dd0$77b2d970$@tin.it> You had it easy. Once upon a time, a place I was working for decided to get a new development as/400. The toy was 2x the 270 you mentioned (hd cage taking one side)... and the shipping original ibm box upped the weight to dunno... king kong. It didn't fit in the elevator, and anyway exceeded the max weight. The office was 2 floors up.... We pushed it up, I still have the nightmares -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin Monceaux Inviato: mercoled? 13 aprile 2016 21:09 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 01:26:29AM -0400, Ian Primus wrote: > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Jason T wrote: > > In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." > > Which is a fancy word for "unusually heavy for its size". That's the truth. In a previous reply I mentioned I have a "small" 9406-270 in my living room. I found it listed on eBay. It was in New York. I'm in Central Texas. It was listed with a flat $50 shipping fee. From the photos and shipping fee I was expecting something small enough to be shipped by UPS or FedEx. I made the seller an offer $50 less than the list price which they accepted, so I basically got free shipping. It was shipped by UPS - UPS Freight. There was no way UPS Fright could get down my driveway so I had to pick it up at their terminal. Fortunately it was shipped on a tiny pallet that just fit in the back of my mini-van. It looks like an oversized tower PC, but is definitely unusually heavy for its size. I have to use a dolly to move it around. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From ryan at diskfutility.com Wed Apr 13 17:21:03 2016 From: ryan at diskfutility.com (Ryan Eisworth) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 17:21:03 -0500 Subject: A couple of afternoons in Austin, Tx In-Reply-To: <570DB39C.3020101@jwsss.com> References: <570DB39C.3020101@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Apr 12, 2016, at 9:49 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > any places to visit while I'm around? just visiting and would like to see if there are any surplus spots, or folks to say hi to. I?m down the road an hour or so in Brenham. There?s a Goodwill store with a computer section at 8965 Research Blvd. in North Austin. They are selling a lot of the stuff they had in their museum and as a result they sometimes have some oddities. I saw an Altos 8600 the last time I was there, along with some Heathkit parts. Sometimes the prices are steep for untested equipment in unknown condition. If there?s any sort of meet-up you can probably count me in depending on the day. Just copy me off-list so I see it for sure. -- ...although I could be wrong... Ryan Eisworth --- --- Brenham, TX, USA From theevilapplepie at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 17:59:03 2016 From: theevilapplepie at gmail.com (James Vess) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 17:59:03 -0500 Subject: A couple of afternoons in Austin, Tx In-Reply-To: References: <570DB39C.3020101@jwsss.com> Message-ID: There is a hackerspace in Austin that I've been to, I'd have to refer to a friend of mine who lives there ( I'm in Houston ) about the Address again. I know there's a lot of scenic places and ( I've heard anyway ) there are some great walking trails. I tend to visit Austin for the nightlife, it's a lot of fun and usually full of good music. On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Ryan Eisworth wrote: > On Apr 12, 2016, at 9:49 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > any places to visit while I'm around? just visiting and would like to > see if there are any surplus spots, or folks to say hi to. > > I?m down the road an hour or so in Brenham. There?s a Goodwill store with > a computer section at 8965 Research Blvd. in North Austin. They are selling > a lot of the stuff they had in their museum and as a result they sometimes > have some oddities. I saw an Altos 8600 the last time I was there, along > with some Heathkit parts. Sometimes the prices are steep for untested > equipment in unknown condition. > > If there?s any sort of meet-up you can probably count me in depending on > the day. Just copy me off-list so I see it for sure. > > > -- > ...although I could be wrong... > > Ryan Eisworth --- --- Brenham, TX, USA > > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 19:09:02 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 20:09:02 -0400 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: <009501d195c5$7d3b9dd0$77b2d970$@tin.it> References: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> <20160413190831.GA11866@RawFedDogs.net> <009501d195c5$7d3b9dd0$77b2d970$@tin.it> Message-ID: Alright. Picked up the machine today. Much smaller than expected, but everything needed seems to be included. I got a terminal as well as a box of cables. I managed to boot the machine up to the login screen. However I do not know the username or password. I was speaking with someone on the phone that was quite knowlegable, they said that after 3 attempts to login it becomes a potato. What do i do from here. I am going to try and contact the original owners, however i believe they are unwilling to help. Im quite amazed the main drive was not wiped. Anyhow, if i can not get the password from the original owners, there does appear to be a working install on the drives, how would I go about resetting the password to gain access to the machine? The machine is a ibm as/400e 170. pictures to follow once I find my camera. --Devin On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > You had it easy. > > Once upon a time, a place I was working for decided to get a new > development > as/400. The toy was 2x the 270 you mentioned (hd cage taking one side)... > and the shipping original ibm box upped the weight to dunno... king kong. > It didn't fit in the elevator, and anyway exceeded the max weight. > > The office was 2 floors up.... > > We pushed it up, I still have the nightmares > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin > Monceaux > Inviato: mercoled? 13 aprile 2016 21:09 > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 01:26:29AM -0400, Ian Primus wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Jason T wrote: > > > > In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." > > > > Which is a fancy word for "unusually heavy for its size". > > That's the truth. In a previous reply I mentioned I have a "small" > 9406-270 > in my living room. I found it listed on eBay. It was in New York. I'm in > Central Texas. It was listed with a flat $50 shipping fee. From the > photos > and shipping fee I was expecting something small enough to be shipped by > UPS > or FedEx. I made the seller an offer $50 less than the list price which > they accepted, so I basically got free shipping. It was shipped by UPS > - UPS Freight. There was no way UPS Fright could get down my driveway so I > had to pick it up at their terminal. Fortunately it was shipped on a tiny > pallet that just fit in the back of my mini-van. It looks like an > oversized > tower PC, but is definitely unusually heavy for its size. I have to use a > dolly to move it around. > > > > -- > > Kevin > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > http://www.Lassie.xyz > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > Bruceville, TX > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > > From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 19:40:52 2016 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 17:40:52 -0700 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> <20160413190831.GA11866@RawFedDogs.net> <009501d195c5$7d3b9dd0$77b2d970$@tin.it> Message-ID: if u havent got it yet here is ibms spec page on it http://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/cgi-bin/ssialias?infotype=DD&subtype=SM&htmlfid=872/ENUS9406-_h03#Header_18

Virus-free. www.avast.com
On 4/13/16, devin davison wrote: > Alright. Picked up the machine today. Much smaller than expected, but > everything needed seems to be included. I got a terminal as well as a box > of cables. I managed to boot the machine up to the login screen. However I > do not know the username or password. I was speaking with someone on the > phone that was quite knowlegable, they said that after 3 attempts to login > it becomes a potato. What do i do from here. I am going to try and contact > the original owners, however i believe they are unwilling to help. Im quite > amazed the main drive was not wiped. Anyhow, if i can not get the password > from the original owners, there does appear to be a working install on the > drives, how would I go about resetting the password to gain access to the > machine? The machine is a ibm as/400e 170. > > pictures to follow once I find my camera. > > --Devin > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Mazzini Alessandro > wrote: > >> You had it easy. >> >> Once upon a time, a place I was working for decided to get a new >> development >> as/400. The toy was 2x the 270 you mentioned (hd cage taking one side)... >> and the shipping original ibm box upped the weight to dunno... king kong. >> It didn't fit in the elevator, and anyway exceeded the max weight. >> >> The office was 2 floors up.... >> >> We pushed it up, I still have the nightmares >> >> -----Messaggio originale----- >> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin >> Monceaux >> Inviato: mercoled? 13 aprile 2016 21:09 >> A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 01:26:29AM -0400, Ian Primus wrote: >> >> > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Jason T wrote: >> >> > > In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." >> > >> > Which is a fancy word for "unusually heavy for its size". >> >> That's the truth. In a previous reply I mentioned I have a "small" >> 9406-270 >> in my living room. I found it listed on eBay. It was in New York. I'm >> in >> Central Texas. It was listed with a flat $50 shipping fee. From the >> photos >> and shipping fee I was expecting something small enough to be shipped by >> UPS >> or FedEx. I made the seller an offer $50 less than the list price which >> they accepted, so I basically got free shipping. It was shipped by UPS >> - UPS Freight. There was no way UPS Fright could get down my driveway so >> I >> had to pick it up at their terminal. Fortunately it was shipped on a >> tiny >> pallet that just fit in the back of my mini-van. It looks like an >> oversized >> tower PC, but is definitely unusually heavy for its size. I have to use >> a >> dolly to move it around. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Kevin >> http://www.RawFedDogs.net >> http://www.Lassie.xyz >> http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org >> Bruceville, TX >> >> What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! >> Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. >> >> > -- Chris Halarewich From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 19:44:51 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 19:44:51 -0500 Subject: WD-40 (again) was Re: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: <570E941F.5040302@bitsavers.org> References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> <570D9500.6000203@cimmeri.com> <570E8181.5030504@bitsavers.org> <570E941F.5040302@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >From your last link.. which is a hoot.. ;-) "PB Blaster just stinks! ATF/acetone couldn't keep mixed together, kept separating." Now here's a report of +ATF+ and acetone that won't mix. I assumed it was due to some additive(s) in the PSF I had used, but perhaps not. So please tell me - is there some half-arsed "green" substitute being sold as acetone, or something? Sort of like the "PF-TSP" (phosphate-free TSP), which is free of phosphates, but of course, is not TSP by a long shot. Now that is some truly worthless crap. If you need REAL TSP, get it from an industrial supply or eBay.. that's where we get it. Seriously though, has +anyone+ encountered a petroleum-based oil that would not go into solution in acetone? What the heck is up with the non-mixing acetone and ATF / PSF? FYI - here's the low-down on the whole ATF / PSF & acetone debacle: http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/27429-Please-confirm-MW-article-on-Penetrating-Oil/page2?highlight=penetrating%20fluid%20test Home Shop Machinist was the source of the original article. The author intended to use ATF, but grabbed PSF by mistake.. and apparently, this wasn't noticed until some time after publication, and replication by readers. On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 4/13/16 10:27 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > "WD-40 is mostly a mix of baby oil, Vaseline, and the goop inside > > homemade lava lamps." > > > > > https://web.archive.org/web/20140119014037/http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/magazine/17-05/st_whatsinside > > > > https://www.engineeringforchange.org/how-to-make-penetrating-oil/ > > > > > > and down the rat-hole I go again > > http://weldingweb.com/archive/index.php/t-348771.html > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 13 20:18:15 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 18:18:15 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay Message-ID: <570EEFD7.2050909@bitsavers.org> http://www.ebay.com/itm/XEROX-ALTO-II-XM-SYSTEM-COMPLETE-MONITOR-KEYBOARD-MOUSE-DISKS-CASE/282003972041 didn't sell for $40000, so now it's $40005 trying to decide if I should report him for this message I got from him. New message from: paperonebonaparte (964Purple Star) photos in internet. please send email for private business and offers. From ethan at 757.org Wed Apr 13 20:26:43 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 21:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: <570EEFD7.2050909@bitsavers.org> References: <570EEFD7.2050909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/XEROX-ALTO-II-XM-SYSTEM-COMPLETE-MONITOR-KEYBOARD-MOUSE-DISKS-CASE/282003972041 > didn't sell for $40000, so now it's $40005 > trying to decide if I should report him for this message I got from him. > New message from: paperonebonaparte (964Purple Star) > photos in internet. please send email for private business and offers. Don't, screw eBay. They take like 17%, and you do all the work. Seller takes all the risks. They even charge you their fee on your shipping costs. I'd rather do business through Craigslist. I list my Cray system on eBay but would rather sell it around eBay. -- Ethan O'Toole From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Apr 13 21:31:33 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 02:31:33 +0000 Subject: WD-40 (again) was Re: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> <570D9500.6000203@cimmeri.com> <570E8181.5030504@bitsavers.org> <570E941F.5040302@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: acetone is natural. Your body is making small amount right now. It is also making methane, a green house gas. There is no true green anything in concentration. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of drlegendre . Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 5:44 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: WD-40 (again) was Re: A fruitfull evening >From your last link.. which is a hoot.. ;-) "PB Blaster just stinks! ATF/acetone couldn't keep mixed together, kept separating." Now here's a report of +ATF+ and acetone that won't mix. I assumed it was due to some additive(s) in the PSF I had used, but perhaps not. So please tell me - is there some half-arsed "green" substitute being sold as acetone, or something? Sort of like the "PF-TSP" (phosphate-free TSP), which is free of phosphates, but of course, is not TSP by a long shot. Now that is some truly worthless crap. If you need REAL TSP, get it from an industrial supply or eBay.. that's where we get it. Seriously though, has +anyone+ encountered a petroleum-based oil that would not go into solution in acetone? What the heck is up with the non-mixing acetone and ATF / PSF? FYI - here's the low-down on the whole ATF / PSF & acetone debacle: http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/27429-Please-confirm-MW-article-on-Penetrating-Oil/page2?highlight=penetrating%20fluid%20test Home Shop Machinist was the source of the original article. The author intended to use ATF, but grabbed PSF by mistake.. and apparently, this wasn't noticed until some time after publication, and replication by readers. On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 4/13/16 10:27 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > "WD-40 is mostly a mix of baby oil, Vaseline, and the goop inside > > homemade lava lamps." > > > > > https://web.archive.org/web/20140119014037/http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/magazine/17-05/st_whatsinside > > > > https://www.engineeringforchange.org/how-to-make-penetrating-oil/ > > > > > > and down the rat-hole I go again > > http://weldingweb.com/archive/index.php/t-348771.html > > From jws at jwsss.com Wed Apr 13 21:52:24 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 19:52:24 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: <570EEFD7.2050909@bitsavers.org> References: <570EEFD7.2050909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <570F05E8.2070201@jwsss.com> On 4/13/2016 6:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/XEROX-ALTO-II-XM-SYSTEM-COMPLETE-MONITOR-KEYBOARD-MOUSE-DISKS-CASE/282003972041 > > didn't sell for $40000, so now it's $40005 > > trying to decide if I should report him for this message I got from him. > > New message from: paperonebonaparte (964Purple Star) > > photos in internet. please send email for private business and offers. > > Nick Allen says this was sold to an individual and was to go to an Italian museum of some sort, but the deal must have fallen thru. Price is a bit steep for a non working unit. Side discussion on Facebook says that media is rare too. None with the system (I think) from the discussion there. thanks Jim From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 13 22:05:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 20:05:12 -0700 Subject: WD-40 (again) was Re: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> <570D9500.6000203@cimmeri.com> <570E8181.5030504@bitsavers.org> <570E941F.5040302@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <570F08E8.5080402@sydex.com> Okay, I'll chime in here. In my experience petroleum oil and acetone are not miscible. Water and alcohol (and gasoline) will mix with acetone, however. So what's the lowdown on the ATF-acetone mixture? http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-made-penetrating-oil/ States pretty clearly that the mix will separate, so you have to keep shaking the bottle. Perhaps it could be made to emulsify somehow (add a surfactant?) Personally, I'd substitute paint thinner or kerosene for the acetone. I suspect it will work just as well--and it'd mix with the ATF. --Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Apr 13 22:43:16 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 05:43:16 +0200 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> <20160413190831.GA11866@RawFedDogs.net> <009501d195c5$7d3b9dd0$77b2d970$@tin.it> Message-ID: <20160414034315.GA28898@Update.UU.SE> Nice! I have a 170 (not up and running, no OS). Which variant do you have. Is it about the size of a PC tower or or two PC towers next to each other? /P On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 08:09:02PM -0400, devin davison wrote: > Alright. Picked up the machine today. Much smaller than expected, but > everything needed seems to be included. I got a terminal as well as a box > of cables. I managed to boot the machine up to the login screen. However I > do not know the username or password. I was speaking with someone on the > phone that was quite knowlegable, they said that after 3 attempts to login > it becomes a potato. What do i do from here. I am going to try and contact > the original owners, however i believe they are unwilling to help. Im quite > amazed the main drive was not wiped. Anyhow, if i can not get the password > from the original owners, there does appear to be a working install on the > drives, how would I go about resetting the password to gain access to the > machine? The machine is a ibm as/400e 170. > > pictures to follow once I find my camera. > > --Devin > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > > > You had it easy. > > > > Once upon a time, a place I was working for decided to get a new > > development > > as/400. The toy was 2x the 270 you mentioned (hd cage taking one side)... > > and the shipping original ibm box upped the weight to dunno... king kong. > > It didn't fit in the elevator, and anyway exceeded the max weight. > > > > The office was 2 floors up.... > > > > We pushed it up, I still have the nightmares > > > > -----Messaggio originale----- > > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin > > Monceaux > > Inviato: mercoled? 13 aprile 2016 21:09 > > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 01:26:29AM -0400, Ian Primus wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Jason T wrote: > > > > > > In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." > > > > > > Which is a fancy word for "unusually heavy for its size". > > > > That's the truth. In a previous reply I mentioned I have a "small" > > 9406-270 > > in my living room. I found it listed on eBay. It was in New York. I'm in > > Central Texas. It was listed with a flat $50 shipping fee. From the > > photos > > and shipping fee I was expecting something small enough to be shipped by > > UPS > > or FedEx. I made the seller an offer $50 less than the list price which > > they accepted, so I basically got free shipping. It was shipped by UPS > > - UPS Freight. There was no way UPS Fright could get down my driveway so I > > had to pick it up at their terminal. Fortunately it was shipped on a tiny > > pallet that just fit in the back of my mini-van. It looks like an > > oversized > > tower PC, but is definitely unusually heavy for its size. I have to use a > > dolly to move it around. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Kevin > > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > > http://www.Lassie.xyz > > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > > Bruceville, TX > > > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > > > > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 22:57:05 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 23:57:05 -0400 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: <20160414034315.GA28898@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> <20160413190831.GA11866@RawFedDogs.net> <009501d195c5$7d3b9dd0$77b2d970$@tin.it> <20160414034315.GA28898@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: The size of two pc towers. I am trying to figure out how to log in. I tried the account qsecofr with pass qsecofr with no luck. I might actually have a licenced os on this thing, it is very different from anything i have worked with before. Not sure really where to go from here. The drives are scsi, are they in a standard filesystem format i could read in a seperate machine? On Wednesday, April 13, 2016, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Nice! I have a 170 (not up and running, no OS). Which variant do you have. > Is it > about the size of a PC tower or or two PC towers next to each other? > > /P > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 08:09:02PM -0400, devin davison wrote: > > Alright. Picked up the machine today. Much smaller than expected, but > > everything needed seems to be included. I got a terminal as well as a box > > of cables. I managed to boot the machine up to the login screen. However > I > > do not know the username or password. I was speaking with someone on the > > phone that was quite knowlegable, they said that after 3 attempts to > login > > it becomes a potato. What do i do from here. I am going to try and > contact > > the original owners, however i believe they are unwilling to help. Im > quite > > amazed the main drive was not wiped. Anyhow, if i can not get the > password > > from the original owners, there does appear to be a working install on > the > > drives, how would I go about resetting the password to gain access to the > > machine? The machine is a ibm as/400e 170. > > > > pictures to follow once I find my camera. > > > > --Devin > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Mazzini Alessandro > wrote: > > > > > You had it easy. > > > > > > Once upon a time, a place I was working for decided to get a new > > > development > > > as/400. The toy was 2x the 270 you mentioned (hd cage taking one > side)... > > > and the shipping original ibm box upped the weight to dunno... king > kong. > > > It didn't fit in the elevator, and anyway exceeded the max weight. > > > > > > The office was 2 floors up.... > > > > > > We pushed it up, I still have the nightmares > > > > > > -----Messaggio originale----- > > > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] Per > conto di Kevin > > > Monceaux > > > Inviato: mercoled? 13 aprile 2016 21:09 > > > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 01:26:29AM -0400, Ian Primus wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Jason T > wrote: > > > > > > > > In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." > > > > > > > > Which is a fancy word for "unusually heavy for its size". > > > > > > That's the truth. In a previous reply I mentioned I have a "small" > > > 9406-270 > > > in my living room. I found it listed on eBay. It was in New York. > I'm in > > > Central Texas. It was listed with a flat $50 shipping fee. From the > > > photos > > > and shipping fee I was expecting something small enough to be shipped > by > > > UPS > > > or FedEx. I made the seller an offer $50 less than the list price > which > > > they accepted, so I basically got free shipping. It was shipped by UPS > > > - UPS Freight. There was no way UPS Fright could get down my driveway > so I > > > had to pick it up at their terminal. Fortunately it was shipped on a > tiny > > > pallet that just fit in the back of my mini-van. It looks like an > > > oversized > > > tower PC, but is definitely unusually heavy for its size. I have to > use a > > > dolly to move it around. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Kevin > > > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > > > http://www.Lassie.xyz > > > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > > > Bruceville, TX > > > > > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > > > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > > > > > > > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 23:09:11 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 00:09:11 -0400 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> <20160413190831.GA11866@RawFedDogs.net> <009501d195c5$7d3b9dd0$77b2d970$@tin.it> <20160414034315.GA28898@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Couple of pictures. http://s20.postimg.org/zf5twva0d/20160413_210749.jpg http://s20.postimg.org/dephg8rcd/20160413_210826.jpg http://s20.postimg.org/61eov0wod/20160413_210836.jpg On Wednesday, April 13, 2016, devin davison > wrote: > The size of two pc towers. I am trying to figure out how to log in. I > tried the account qsecofr with pass qsecofr with no luck. I might actually > have a licenced os on this thing, it is very different from anything i have > worked with before. Not sure really where to go from here. > > The drives are scsi, are they in a standard filesystem format i could read > in a seperate machine? > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2016, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> Nice! I have a 170 (not up and running, no OS). Which variant do you >> have. Is it >> about the size of a PC tower or or two PC towers next to each other? >> >> /P >> >> On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 08:09:02PM -0400, devin davison wrote: >> > Alright. Picked up the machine today. Much smaller than expected, but >> > everything needed seems to be included. I got a terminal as well as a >> box >> > of cables. I managed to boot the machine up to the login screen. >> However I >> > do not know the username or password. I was speaking with someone on the >> > phone that was quite knowlegable, they said that after 3 attempts to >> login >> > it becomes a potato. What do i do from here. I am going to try and >> contact >> > the original owners, however i believe they are unwilling to help. Im >> quite >> > amazed the main drive was not wiped. Anyhow, if i can not get the >> password >> > from the original owners, there does appear to be a working install on >> the >> > drives, how would I go about resetting the password to gain access to >> the >> > machine? The machine is a ibm as/400e 170. >> > >> > pictures to follow once I find my camera. >> > >> > --Devin >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Mazzini Alessandro >> wrote: >> > >> > > You had it easy. >> > > >> > > Once upon a time, a place I was working for decided to get a new >> > > development >> > > as/400. The toy was 2x the 270 you mentioned (hd cage taking one >> side)... >> > > and the shipping original ibm box upped the weight to dunno... king >> kong. >> > > It didn't fit in the elevator, and anyway exceeded the max weight. >> > > >> > > The office was 2 floors up.... >> > > >> > > We pushed it up, I still have the nightmares >> > > >> > > -----Messaggio originale----- >> > > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin >> > > Monceaux >> > > Inviato: mercoled? 13 aprile 2016 21:09 >> > > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> > > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 >> > > >> > > >> > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 01:26:29AM -0400, Ian Primus wrote: >> > > >> > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Jason T >> wrote: >> > > >> > > > > In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." >> > > > >> > > > Which is a fancy word for "unusually heavy for its size". >> > > >> > > That's the truth. In a previous reply I mentioned I have a "small" >> > > 9406-270 >> > > in my living room. I found it listed on eBay. It was in New York. >> I'm in >> > > Central Texas. It was listed with a flat $50 shipping fee. From the >> > > photos >> > > and shipping fee I was expecting something small enough to be shipped >> by >> > > UPS >> > > or FedEx. I made the seller an offer $50 less than the list price >> which >> > > they accepted, so I basically got free shipping. It was shipped by >> UPS >> > > - UPS Freight. There was no way UPS Fright could get down my >> driveway so I >> > > had to pick it up at their terminal. Fortunately it was shipped on a >> tiny >> > > pallet that just fit in the back of my mini-van. It looks like an >> > > oversized >> > > tower PC, but is definitely unusually heavy for its size. I have to >> use a >> > > dolly to move it around. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > >> > > Kevin >> > > http://www.RawFedDogs.net >> > > http://www.Lassie.xyz >> > > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org >> > > Bruceville, TX >> > > >> > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! >> > > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. >> > > >> > > >> > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Apr 13 23:23:14 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 04:23:14 +0000 Subject: WD-40 (again) was Re: A fruitfull evening In-Reply-To: <570F08E8.5080402@sydex.com> References: <36408.10.10.10.2.1460490939.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <570D8236.6010305@sydex.com> <570D9500.6000203@cimmeri.com> <570E8181.5030504@bitsavers.org> <570E941F.5040302@bitsavers.org> , <570F08E8.5080402@sydex.com> Message-ID: One wonders about PSF? Is it better or worse than ATF. Tinker Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 8:05 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: WD-40 (again) was Re: A fruitfull evening Okay, I'll chime in here. In my experience petroleum oil and acetone are not miscible. Water and alcohol (and gasoline) will mix with acetone, however. So what's the lowdown on the ATF-acetone mixture? http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-made-penetrating-oil/ States pretty clearly that the mix will separate, so you have to keep shaking the bottle. Perhaps it could be made to emulsify somehow (add a surfactant?) Personally, I'd substitute paint thinner or kerosene for the acetone. I suspect it will work just as well--and it'd mix with the ATF. --Chuck From isking at uw.edu Wed Apr 13 23:26:56 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 21:26:56 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: <570F05E8.2070201@jwsss.com> References: <570EEFD7.2050909@bitsavers.org> <570F05E8.2070201@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 7:52 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 4/13/2016 6:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/XEROX-ALTO-II-XM-SYSTEM-COMPLETE-MONITOR-KEYBOARD-MOUSE-DISKS-CASE/282003972041 >> >> didn't sell for $40000, so now it's $40005 >> >> trying to decide if I should report him for this message I got from him. >> >> New message from: paperonebonaparte (964Purple Star) >> >> photos in internet. please send email for private business and offers. >> >> >> Nick Allen says this was sold to an individual and was to go to an > Italian museum of some sort, but the deal must have fallen thru. Price is a > bit steep for a non working unit. > > Side discussion on Facebook says that media is rare too. None with the > system (I think) from the discussion there. > thanks > Jim > This looks screwy. Why not offer photos of the unit you get? Why is the Diablo missing from the cabinet? Media/software is available around and about, FYI. The media is a pretty standard RK05 cartridge (12 sector). -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 13 15:47:57 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 21:47:57 +0100 Subject: VCF East Message-ID: <570EB07D.40207@btinternet.com> Hi Guys PDP-8 panels are going faster than I can get them made. VCF East this weekend. I would like to have gone. Maybe somebody with one of my recent panels will take it along. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From supervinx at libero.it Thu Apr 14 00:24:22 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 07:24:22 +0200 Subject: R: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 Message-ID: So they changed the default sec officer pwd (root in *nix). You have to boot in manual mode B M (not B N) and cross your fingers that DST pwd is still QSECOFR/QSECOFR. Then there's a way to reset the QSECOFR pwd. From supervinx at libero.it Thu Apr 14 00:26:49 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 07:26:49 +0200 Subject: R: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 Message-ID: <4h8llw16mtnpuh2lp9d7vd8u.1460611609163@email.android.com> http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum/IBM/AS400/9406/170/ From supervinx at libero.it Thu Apr 14 00:29:23 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 07:29:23 +0200 Subject: R: Getting an ibm as/400 Message-ID: <4d30gnhyi6jfo46b5fo534vs.1460611763370@email.android.com> You can'read the disks elsewhere: you can only image them with sg_utils. Sector formatting is not 512 and they are grouped in pools by OS/400. How many disks you have? Main pool has not been wiped, may be more than one disk... From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 14 01:06:20 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 08:06:20 +0200 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> <20160413190831.GA11866@RawFedDogs.net> <009501d195c5$7d3b9dd0$77b2d970$@tin.it> <20160414034315.GA28898@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20160414060619.GA29945@Update.UU.SE> Just the model I have :) I'm a total beginner so I cant advice you. Normally I would say "yank the drive and image them with dd on a unix box". But I'm not sure what that yields, given that the block size is nonstandard (520B?). Perhap you get a copy you can't easily write back to another drive. At worst you get a broken copy. Either way. I have the same terminal but I lack the cabling. Could you take a picture of all the cables in the order they are connected? I think I know what I need, but it would be nice to get a verification. Thank you, Pontus. On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 12:09:11AM -0400, devin davison wrote: > Couple of pictures. > > http://s20.postimg.org/zf5twva0d/20160413_210749.jpg > > > http://s20.postimg.org/dephg8rcd/20160413_210826.jpg > > http://s20.postimg.org/61eov0wod/20160413_210836.jpg > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2016, devin davison > wrote: > > > The size of two pc towers. I am trying to figure out how to log in. I > > tried the account qsecofr with pass qsecofr with no luck. I might actually > > have a licenced os on this thing, it is very different from anything i have > > worked with before. Not sure really where to go from here. > > > > The drives are scsi, are they in a standard filesystem format i could read > > in a seperate machine? > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2016, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > > >> Nice! I have a 170 (not up and running, no OS). Which variant do you > >> have. Is it > >> about the size of a PC tower or or two PC towers next to each other? > >> > >> /P > >> > >> On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 08:09:02PM -0400, devin davison wrote: > >> > Alright. Picked up the machine today. Much smaller than expected, but > >> > everything needed seems to be included. I got a terminal as well as a > >> box > >> > of cables. I managed to boot the machine up to the login screen. > >> However I > >> > do not know the username or password. I was speaking with someone on the > >> > phone that was quite knowlegable, they said that after 3 attempts to > >> login > >> > it becomes a potato. What do i do from here. I am going to try and > >> contact > >> > the original owners, however i believe they are unwilling to help. Im > >> quite > >> > amazed the main drive was not wiped. Anyhow, if i can not get the > >> password > >> > from the original owners, there does appear to be a working install on > >> the > >> > drives, how would I go about resetting the password to gain access to > >> the > >> > machine? The machine is a ibm as/400e 170. > >> > > >> > pictures to follow once I find my camera. > >> > > >> > --Devin > >> > > >> > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Mazzini Alessandro > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > You had it easy. > >> > > > >> > > Once upon a time, a place I was working for decided to get a new > >> > > development > >> > > as/400. The toy was 2x the 270 you mentioned (hd cage taking one > >> side)... > >> > > and the shipping original ibm box upped the weight to dunno... king > >> kong. > >> > > It didn't fit in the elevator, and anyway exceeded the max weight. > >> > > > >> > > The office was 2 floors up.... > >> > > > >> > > We pushed it up, I still have the nightmares > >> > > > >> > > -----Messaggio originale----- > >> > > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin > >> > > Monceaux > >> > > Inviato: mercoled? 13 aprile 2016 21:09 > >> > > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 01:26:29AM -0400, Ian Primus wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Jason T > >> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > > In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." > >> > > > > >> > > > Which is a fancy word for "unusually heavy for its size". > >> > > > >> > > That's the truth. In a previous reply I mentioned I have a "small" > >> > > 9406-270 > >> > > in my living room. I found it listed on eBay. It was in New York. > >> I'm in > >> > > Central Texas. It was listed with a flat $50 shipping fee. From the > >> > > photos > >> > > and shipping fee I was expecting something small enough to be shipped > >> by > >> > > UPS > >> > > or FedEx. I made the seller an offer $50 less than the list price > >> which > >> > > they accepted, so I basically got free shipping. It was shipped by > >> UPS > >> > > - UPS Freight. There was no way UPS Fright could get down my > >> driveway so I > >> > > had to pick it up at their terminal. Fortunately it was shipped on a > >> tiny > >> > > pallet that just fit in the back of my mini-van. It looks like an > >> > > oversized > >> > > tower PC, but is definitely unusually heavy for its size. I have to > >> use a > >> > > dolly to move it around. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > -- > >> > > > >> > > Kevin > >> > > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > >> > > http://www.Lassie.xyz > >> > > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > >> > > Bruceville, TX > >> > > > >> > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > >> > > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 14 01:27:30 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 08:27:30 +0200 Subject: R: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: <4h8llw16mtnpuh2lp9d7vd8u.1460611609163@email.android.com> References: <4h8llw16mtnpuh2lp9d7vd8u.1460611609163@email.android.com> Message-ID: <20160414062729.GB29945@Update.UU.SE> Great teardown, now I don't need to do it myself :) On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 07:26:49AM +0200, supervinx wrote: > http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum/IBM/AS400/9406/170/ From supervinx at libero.it Thu Apr 14 01:49:20 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 08:49:20 +0200 Subject: R: Re: R: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 Message-ID: I installed also the Windows servers :) From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 14 02:45:57 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 08:45:57 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum Message-ID: <570F4AB5.9080400@btinternet.com> Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? Its got walls like Mordor I thought I might register. I filled out their form (tedious) and hit submit. It tells me my email address is already in use ! It then offers to change my password and asks for my email address. It says email sent needless to say there's no email This site is more confused than I normally am Anybody know a spell or incantation to get into this closed site. Rod Smallwood From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 05:54:13 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:54:13 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <570F4AB5.9080400@btinternet.com> References: <570F4AB5.9080400@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 14 April 2016 at 08:45, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? > Its got walls like Mordor > > I thought I might register. I filled out their form (tedious) and hit > submit. > It tells me my email address is already in use ! > It then offers to change my password and asks for my email address. > It says email sent needless to say there's no email > This site is more confused than I normally am > > Anybody know a spell or incantation to get into this closed site. > Hopefully Erik will be along soon to explain how to register. I know it changed hosts in Feb so there may still be teething troubles. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 14 06:03:13 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:03:13 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: References: <570F4AB5.9080400@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <570F78F1.1020802@btinternet.com> Thanks Adrian Rod On 14/04/2016 11:54, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 14 April 2016 at 08:45, Rod Smallwood > wrote: > >> Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? >> Its got walls like Mordor >> >> I thought I might register. I filled out their form (tedious) and hit >> submit. >> It tells me my email address is already in use ! >> It then offers to change my password and asks for my email address. >> It says email sent needless to say there's no email >> This site is more confused than I normally am >> >> Anybody know a spell or incantation to get into this closed site. >> > Hopefully Erik will be along soon to explain how to register. I know it > changed hosts in Feb so there may still be teething troubles. > > From j at ckrubin.us Thu Apr 14 07:27:23 2016 From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:27:23 +0000 Subject: Vintage compu stuff in NOLA? Message-ID: I'll be in New Orleans for a few days next week - anything vintage electronics to recommend? Thanks, Jack From applecorey at optonline.net Thu Apr 14 08:04:04 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:04:04 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Apple Fans, a reminder two working Apple-1's at VCF east References: Message-ID: <29A27BAD-AD38-4400-8846-D741DE996876@optonline.net> One NTI and one byte shop board. If you attend Friday's Apple-1 classes you may get to play on one and you will be able to compare them to the current Mimeo and Newton reproduction boards. For the weekend we will be rotating units and will post a schedule when demonstrations will occur. Happy 40th Birthday Apple!!! Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 08:39:11 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:39:11 +0200 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum Message-ID: On 14 April 2016 at 09:45, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? > Its got walls like Mordor > > I thought I might register. I filled out their form (tedious) and hit > submit. > It tells me my email address is already in use ! [..] The forum was moved to http://www.vcfed.org/forum/ recently, with all the original users and posts, and it looks like you registered April 29 last year. (search for yourself with site:www.vcfed.org/forum/ and you'll find your user) -Tor From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 08:39:11 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:39:11 +0200 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum Message-ID: On 14 April 2016 at 09:45, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? > Its got walls like Mordor > > I thought I might register. I filled out their form (tedious) and hit > submit. > It tells me my email address is already in use ! [..] The forum was moved to http://www.vcfed.org/forum/ recently, with all the original users and posts, and it looks like you registered April 29 last year. (search for yourself with site:www.vcfed.org/forum/ and you'll find your user) -Tor From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 08:40:03 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 08:40:03 -0500 Subject: A couple of afternoons in Austin, Tx Message-ID: Think most our hotspots have been mentioned. Last I've heard Goodwill (franchise* so rules vary by city/owners) has a mandate to all goodwill in town that they must send all computer equipment to the goodwill computerworks store which is the one mentioned (off the frontage of north 183 and just before Burnett). Unfortunate for the other stores but makes it a single stop to know if they have anything vintage. Prices seem to model ebay though :-( but once and a while something nice is there. Pinballz arcade (N. Austin)/Pinballz kingdom (buda) are functional arcades catering to pinball and early games nut also newer titles scattered around. Most are for sale but IMO at "not interested in selling" prices (2.5x? Going rates). Game over videogames is one of our better retro and vintage game stores. A few locations scattered around town but ?also a little high on prices. The staff though are usually pretty knowledgeable gamers and enthusiasts though depending on age and location. They also line their walls with part of the owners collection or boxes of consoles. The north lamar/anderson location has a small area as their "museum". This is also who started hosting an annual "classic game fest" in town. Gamefellas .. one of Austin's early on used and vintage game stores. They tend to have more boxed console games than other stores which you'll find loose carts. I cant ever get a good vibe on staff though. One store seems to have the good geeks then two others have a teen thats listening to an ipad and seems disinterested but maybe thats changed.? I don't know what the schedule is but on (some?) Saturdays there's a commodore meetup group that Bo Zimmerman hosts. Possibility to see what I advertise as one of the largest commodore collections in North America. There are also a few hacker spaces but I'm not that familiar nor a member so not sure about touring those. From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 08:47:36 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 08:47:36 -0500 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 Message-ID: <6dvns658nuf0mso2d6xsej5e.1460641561858@email.android.com> Not sure about mounting the drive and reading the filesystem properly (not much bad could happen from trying) but that gives you the opportunity to back it up (dd) or to potentially hex edit the raw drive itself and overwrite the password hash with one you do know as long as its the exact same amount of characters. (Any different length of characters will shift the data that sectors are looking for ans corrupt the drive).
-------- Original message --------
From: devin davison
Date:04/13/2016 10:57 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
Subject: Re: Getting an ibm as/400
The size of two pc towers. I am trying to figure out how to log in. I tried the account qsecofr with pass qsecofr with no luck. I might actually have a licenced os on this thing, it is very different from anything i have worked with before. Not sure really where to go from here. The drives are scsi, are they in a standard filesystem format i could read in a seperate machine? On Wednesday, April 13, 2016, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Nice! I have a 170 (not up and running, no OS). Which variant do you have. > Is it > about the size of a PC tower or or two PC towers next to each other? > > /P > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 08:09:02PM -0400, devin davison wrote: > > Alright. Picked up the machine today. Much smaller than expected, but > > everything needed seems to be included. I got a terminal as well as a box > > of cables. I managed to boot the machine up to the login screen. However > I > > do not know the username or password. I was speaking with someone on the > > phone that was quite knowlegable, they said that after 3 attempts to > login > > it becomes a potato. What do i do from here. I am going to try and > contact > > the original owners, however i believe they are unwilling to help. Im > quite > > amazed the main drive was not wiped. Anyhow, if i can not get the > password > > from the original owners, there does appear to be a working install on > the > > drives, how would I go about resetting the password to gain access to the > > machine? The machine is a ibm as/400e 170. > > > > pictures to follow once I find my camera. > > > > --Devin > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Mazzini Alessandro > wrote: > > > > > You had it easy. > > > > > > Once upon a time, a place I was working for decided to get a new > > > development > > > as/400. The toy was 2x the 270 you mentioned (hd cage taking one > side)... > > > and the shipping original ibm box upped the weight to dunno... king > kong. > > > It didn't fit in the elevator, and anyway exceeded the max weight. > > > > > > The office was 2 floors up.... > > > > > > We pushed it up, I still have the nightmares > > > > > > -----Messaggio originale----- > > > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] Per > conto di Kevin > > > Monceaux > > > Inviato: mercoled? 13 aprile 2016 21:09 > > > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 01:26:29AM -0400, Ian Primus wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Jason T > wrote: > > > > > > > > In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." > > > > > > > > Which is a fancy word for "unusually heavy for its size". > > > > > > That's the truth. In a previous reply I mentioned I have a "small" > > > 9406-270 > > > in my living room. I found it listed on eBay. It was in New York. > I'm in > > > Central Texas. It was listed with a flat $50 shipping fee. From the > > > photos > > > and shipping fee I was expecting something small enough to be shipped > by > > > UPS > > > or FedEx. I made the seller an offer $50 less than the list price > which > > > they accepted, so I basically got free shipping. It was shipped by UPS > > > - UPS Freight. There was no way UPS Fright could get down my driveway > so I > > > had to pick it up at their terminal. Fortunately it was shipped on a > tiny > > > pallet that just fit in the back of my mini-van. It looks like an > > > oversized > > > tower PC, but is definitely unusually heavy for its size. I have to > use a > > > dolly to move it around. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Kevin > > > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > > > http://www.Lassie.xyz > > > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > > > Bruceville, TX > > > > > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > > > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > > > > > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 14 08:13:51 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:13:51 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy UK show Message-ID: <570F978F.2040200@btinternet.com> DEC Legacy UK show Where did it go ? 2015 then nothing Rod Smallwood From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Thu Apr 14 09:00:39 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:00:39 -0500 Subject: A couple of afternoons in Austin, Tx In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 8:40 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > > Pinballz arcade (N. Austin)/Pinballz kingdom (buda) are functional arcades > catering to pinball and early games nut also newer titles scattered around. > Most are for sale but IMO at "not interested in selling" prices (2.5x? > Going rates). Yeah, that?s pretty much true. To be sure, though, the tables are working and, from what I know, they guarantee the purchase. It a bit better than buying off of someone you know who doesn?t have a record of repairs made. However, you do pay for that. If you _really_ wanted a pinball machine and it wasn?t something very recent (like the newer Sterns or Jersey Jacks, etc.) then you?d want to hook up with a local pinball club to find sellers and people who can work on them. It should also be said that Pinballz is not a pay one price and play until you drop. Every drain costs you money! ;-) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 09:03:17 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:03:17 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy UK show In-Reply-To: <570F978F.2040200@btinternet.com> References: <570F978F.2040200@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <066e01d19656$656692f0$3033b8d0$@gmail.com> I thought Mark was only aiming for every two years. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > Smallwood > Sent: 14 April 2016 14:14 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: DEC Legacy UK show > > DEC Legacy UK show > > Where did it go ? > 2015 then nothing > > Rod Smallwood > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 14 09:04:18 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:04:18 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> On 14/04/2016 14:39, Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 14 April 2016 at 09:45, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? >> Its got walls like Mordor >> >> I thought I might register. I filled out their form (tedious) and hit >> submit. >> It tells me my email address is already in use ! > [..] > > The forum was moved to http://www.vcfed.org/forum/ recently, with all > the original users and posts, and it looks like you registered April > 29 last year. (search for yourself with site:www.vcfed.org/forum/ and > you'll find your user) > > -Tor I have no idea what you are talking about. I have no user name no password or anything else to search with. Please repeat your message in understandable English Rod Smallwood From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 09:06:23 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 10:06:23 -0400 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: <6dvns658nuf0mso2d6xsej5e.1460641561858@email.android.com> References: <6dvns658nuf0mso2d6xsej5e.1460641561858@email.android.com> Message-ID: I called this morning. the place it came from does not want to be helpful. The person i spoke with was uncertain why the drive was not wiped in the first place. I am going to start imaging the drives with dd and see if i can find anything useful on them. Hex editing the raw hash sounds like the way i would want to go, but i will need to read more into it. On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Not sure about mounting the drive and reading the filesystem properly (not > much bad could happen from trying) but that gives you the opportunity to > back it up (dd) or to potentially hex edit the raw drive itself and > overwrite the password hash with one you do know as long as its the exact > same amount of characters. (Any different length of characters will shift > the data that sectors are looking for ans corrupt the drive). > >
-------- Original message --------
From: devin davison < > lyokoboy0 at gmail.com>
Date:04/13/2016 10:57 PM (GMT-06:00) >
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 >
>
The size of two pc towers. I am trying to figure out how to log in. > I tried > the account qsecofr with pass qsecofr with no luck. I might actually have a > licenced os on this thing, it is very different from anything i have worked > with before. Not sure really where to go from here. > > The drives are scsi, are they in a standard filesystem format i could read > in a seperate machine? > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2016, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > > Nice! I have a 170 (not up and running, no OS). Which variant do you > have. > > Is it > > about the size of a PC tower or or two PC towers next to each other? > > > > /P > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 08:09:02PM -0400, devin davison wrote: > > > Alright. Picked up the machine today. Much smaller than expected, but > > > everything needed seems to be included. I got a terminal as well as a > box > > > of cables. I managed to boot the machine up to the login screen. > However > > I > > > do not know the username or password. I was speaking with someone on > the > > > phone that was quite knowlegable, they said that after 3 attempts to > > login > > > it becomes a potato. What do i do from here. I am going to try and > > contact > > > the original owners, however i believe they are unwilling to help. Im > > quite > > > amazed the main drive was not wiped. Anyhow, if i can not get the > > password > > > from the original owners, there does appear to be a working install on > > the > > > drives, how would I go about resetting the password to gain access to > the > > > machine? The machine is a ibm as/400e 170. > > > > > > pictures to follow once I find my camera. > > > > > > --Devin > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Mazzini Alessandro > > wrote: > > > > > > > You had it easy. > > > > > > > > Once upon a time, a place I was working for decided to get a new > > > > development > > > > as/400. The toy was 2x the 270 you mentioned (hd cage taking one > > side)... > > > > and the shipping original ibm box upped the weight to dunno... king > > kong. > > > > It didn't fit in the elevator, and anyway exceeded the max weight. > > > > > > > > The office was 2 floors up.... > > > > > > > > We pushed it up, I still have the nightmares > > > > > > > > -----Messaggio originale----- > > > > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] Per > > conto di Kevin > > > > Monceaux > > > > Inviato: mercoled? 13 aprile 2016 21:09 > > > > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 01:26:29AM -0400, Ian Primus wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Jason T > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." > > > > > > > > > > Which is a fancy word for "unusually heavy for its size". > > > > > > > > That's the truth. In a previous reply I mentioned I have a "small" > > > > 9406-270 > > > > in my living room. I found it listed on eBay. It was in New York. > > I'm in > > > > Central Texas. It was listed with a flat $50 shipping fee. From the > > > > photos > > > > and shipping fee I was expecting something small enough to be shipped > > by > > > > UPS > > > > or FedEx. I made the seller an offer $50 less than the list price > > which > > > > they accepted, so I basically got free shipping. It was shipped by > UPS > > > > - UPS Freight. There was no way UPS Fright could get down my > driveway > > so I > > > > had to pick it up at their terminal. Fortunately it was shipped on a > > tiny > > > > pallet that just fit in the back of my mini-van. It looks like an > > > > oversized > > > > tower PC, but is definitely unusually heavy for its size. I have to > > use a > > > > dolly to move it around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > > > > http://www.Lassie.xyz > > > > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > > > > Bruceville, TX > > > > > > > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > > > > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > > > > > > > > > > > From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Thu Apr 14 09:06:34 2016 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:06:34 +0000 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: <6dvns658nuf0mso2d6xsej5e.1460641561858@email.android.com> References: <6dvns658nuf0mso2d6xsej5e.1460641561858@email.android.com> Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AEF868C@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Get the SLIC cd (or tape), and do a D-mode manual IPL. Reinstall (DO NOT select the option to install and initialize). This is generally referred to as "slipping the LIC". You can re-install it without trashing the OS. That'll get you into DST, where you can reset the password. What version of the OS does is currently installed? -Ben From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 14 09:09:34 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:09:34 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy UK show In-Reply-To: <066e01d19656$656692f0$3033b8d0$@gmail.com> References: <570F978F.2040200@btinternet.com> <066e01d19656$656692f0$3033b8d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <570FA49E.9070902@btinternet.com> So why did it say See you in 2016? On 14/04/2016 15:03, Dave Wade wrote: > I thought Mark was only aiming for every two years. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >> Smallwood >> Sent: 14 April 2016 14:14 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> Subject: DEC Legacy UK show >> >> DEC Legacy UK show >> >> Where did it go ? >> 2015 then nothing >> >> Rod Smallwood >> > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 09:15:14 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:15:14 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Hi Rod, Tor is right, you registered last year according to this: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/member.php?35160-Rod-Smallwood&tab=activitystream&type=user Cheers Adrian On 14 April 2016 at 15:04, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > On 14/04/2016 14:39, Tor Arntsen wrote: > >> On 14 April 2016 at 09:45, Rod Smallwood >> wrote: >> >>> Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? >>> Its got walls like Mordor >>> >>> I thought I might register. I filled out their form (tedious) and hit >>> submit. >>> It tells me my email address is already in use ! >>> >> [..] >> >> The forum was moved to http://www.vcfed.org/forum/ recently, with all >> the original users and posts, and it looks like you registered April >> 29 last year. (search for yourself with site:www.vcfed.org/forum/ and >> you'll find your user) >> >> -Tor >> > I have no idea what you are talking about. > I have no user name no password or anything else to search with. > Please repeat your message in understandable English > > Rod Smallwood > > > -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Apr 14 09:15:21 2016 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:15:21 +0200 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20160414161521.Horde.rN8MEniirl_iAGSvoPlJK1M@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Rod Smallwood wrote: > I have no idea what you are talking about. > I have no user name no password or anything else to search with. > Please repeat your message in understandable English > > Rod Smallwood Try: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/member.php?35160-Rod-Smallwood Join Date April 29th, 2015 Last Activity November 12th, 2015 03:47 AM From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 14 09:19:35 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 10:19:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H960 leveling feet Message-ID: <20160414141935.73F7118C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So there was a post awhile back that discussed replacement "leveling feet" for the stabilizing outrigger front feet on H960 cabinets (DEC's formal name for them is apparently "extension feet"); somone pointed out that one can buy such things, and gave some pointers. So I needed some, and here's the scoop: the threaded shaft on the leveling foot is 5/16"-18, and a suitable replacment part is Vlier FSE302S, available from in the US from MSC Industrial Supply: http://www.mscdirect.com/ (US$1.84 each + shipping). I have obtained some, and they fit OK, with two caveats: i) the round foot part is a significantly larger diameter than the DEC originals, but they do fit OK on neighbouring extension feet (i.e. on a pair of H960's, both with extension feet); and ii) the threaded part is somewhat longer than the originals, so even when wound fully up, there isn't a lot of room between the foot and the floor. (Of course one could trim the threaded shaft, but I'm lazy.. :-) Anyway, if anyone in Europe needs some, and can't find any over there, let me know, and I can obtain some and send them along. I also need some of the larger main leveling feet, but I haven't been able (yet) to find any. The threaded part is 7/16"-14, but nobody seems to make 7/16" these days? (Everyone who makes them now seems to go straight from 3/8" to 1/2".) Anyone know of a source for these, or a replacement? Thanks! Noel From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 09:19:36 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:19:36 +0200 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> Message-ID: 2016-04-14 16:04 GMT+02:00 Rod Smallwood : > > > On 14/04/2016 14:39, Tor Arntsen wrote: > >> On 14 April 2016 at 09:45, Rod Smallwood >> wrote: >> >>> Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? >>> Its got walls like Mordor >>> >>> I thought I might register. I filled out their form (tedious) and hit >>> submit. >>> It tells me my email address is already in use ! >>> >> [..] >> >> The forum was moved to http://www.vcfed.org/forum/ recently, with all >> the original users and posts, and it looks like you registered April >> 29 last year. (search for yourself with site:www.vcfed.org/forum/ and >> you'll find your user) >> >> -Tor >> > I have no idea what you are talking about. > I have no user name no password or anything else to search with. > Please repeat your message in understandable English Not sure if it helps you but Google give this by searching for Rod Smallwood vcfed: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/member.php?35160-Rod-Smallwood&tab=activitystream&type=user which is what I guess Tor meant. /Mattis > > > Rod Smallwood > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 14 09:20:51 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 10:20:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OpenVMS CD-ROMs on eBay Message-ID: <20160414142051.D962418C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/391430322544 Sorry the notice is so short, I was going to do it a couple of days ago, and forgot. Noel From mazzinia at tin.it Thu Apr 14 09:24:18 2016 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:24:18 +0200 Subject: R: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: <6dvns658nuf0mso2d6xsej5e.1460641561858@email.android.com> References: <6dvns658nuf0mso2d6xsej5e.1460641561858@email.android.com> Message-ID: <007d01d19659$54edee70$fec9cb50$@tin.it> I really doubt that it can be done, and the structure of the data is totally dissimilar from what you can see in windows/unix/vms. Moreover there are high chances of being on hw raid -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Sam O'nella Inviato: gioved? 14 aprile 2016 15:48 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 Not sure about mounting the drive and reading the filesystem properly (not much bad could happen from trying) but that gives you the opportunity to back it up (dd) or to potentially hex edit the raw drive itself and overwrite the password hash with one you do know as long as its the exact same amount of characters. (Any different length of characters will shift the data that sectors are looking for ans corrupt the drive).
-------- Original message --------
From: devin davison
Date:04/13/2016 10:57 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
Subject: Re: Getting an ibm as/400
The size of two pc towers. I am trying to figure out how to log in. I tried the account qsecofr with pass qsecofr with no luck. I might actually have a licenced os on this thing, it is very different from anything i have worked with before. Not sure really where to go from here. The drives are scsi, are they in a standard filesystem format i could read in a seperate machine? On Wednesday, April 13, 2016, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Nice! I have a 170 (not up and running, no OS). Which variant do you have. > Is it > about the size of a PC tower or or two PC towers next to each other? > > /P > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 08:09:02PM -0400, devin davison wrote: > > Alright. Picked up the machine today. Much smaller than expected, > > but everything needed seems to be included. I got a terminal as well > > as a box of cables. I managed to boot the machine up to the login > > screen. However > I > > do not know the username or password. I was speaking with someone on > > the phone that was quite knowlegable, they said that after 3 > > attempts to > login > > it becomes a potato. What do i do from here. I am going to try and > contact > > the original owners, however i believe they are unwilling to help. > > Im > quite > > amazed the main drive was not wiped. Anyhow, if i can not get the > password > > from the original owners, there does appear to be a working install > > on > the > > drives, how would I go about resetting the password to gain access > > to the machine? The machine is a ibm as/400e 170. > > > > pictures to follow once I find my camera. > > > > --Devin > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Mazzini Alessandro > wrote: > > > > > You had it easy. > > > > > > Once upon a time, a place I was working for decided to get a new > > > development as/400. The toy was 2x the 270 you mentioned (hd cage > > > taking one > side)... > > > and the shipping original ibm box upped the weight to dunno... > > > king > kong. > > > It didn't fit in the elevator, and anyway exceeded the max weight. > > > > > > The office was 2 floors up.... > > > > > > We pushed it up, I still have the nightmares > > > > > > -----Messaggio originale----- > > > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] > > > Per > conto di Kevin > > > Monceaux > > > Inviato: mercoled? 13 aprile 2016 21:09 > > > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 01:26:29AM -0400, Ian Primus wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Jason T > wrote: > > > > > > > > In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." > > > > > > > > Which is a fancy word for "unusually heavy for its size". > > > > > > That's the truth. In a previous reply I mentioned I have a "small" > > > 9406-270 > > > in my living room. I found it listed on eBay. It was in New York. > I'm in > > > Central Texas. It was listed with a flat $50 shipping fee. From > > > the photos and shipping fee I was expecting something small enough > > > to be shipped > by > > > UPS > > > or FedEx. I made the seller an offer $50 less than the list price > which > > > they accepted, so I basically got free shipping. It was shipped > > > by UPS > > > - UPS Freight. There was no way UPS Fright could get down my > > > driveway > so I > > > had to pick it up at their terminal. Fortunately it was shipped > > > on a > tiny > > > pallet that just fit in the back of my mini-van. It looks like an > > > oversized tower PC, but is definitely unusually heavy for its > > > size. I have to > use a > > > dolly to move it around. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Kevin > > > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > > > http://www.Lassie.xyz > > > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > > > Bruceville, TX > > > > > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > > > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > > > > > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 14 09:28:58 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:28:58 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <570FA92A.6020307@btinternet.com> Well somebody registered .. However that does not get me in.. I think I'll go back to doing the color layers for the 11/55 front panel. Its easier!! Rod Smallwood On 14/04/2016 15:15, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi Rod, > > Tor is right, you registered last year according to this: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/member.php?35160-Rod-Smallwood&tab=activitystream&type=user > > Cheers > > Adrian > > On 14 April 2016 at 15:04, Rod Smallwood > wrote: > >> >> On 14/04/2016 14:39, Tor Arntsen wrote: >> >>> On 14 April 2016 at 09:45, Rod Smallwood >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? >>>> Its got walls like Mordor >>>> >>>> I thought I might register. I filled out their form (tedious) and hit >>>> submit. >>>> It tells me my email address is already in use ! >>>> >>> [..] >>> >>> The forum was moved to http://www.vcfed.org/forum/ recently, with all >>> the original users and posts, and it looks like you registered April >>> 29 last year. (search for yourself with site:www.vcfed.org/forum/ and >>> you'll find your user) >>> >>> -Tor >>> >> I have no idea what you are talking about. >> I have no user name no password or anything else to search with. >> Please repeat your message in understandable English >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> > From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 09:29:47 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 07:29:47 -0700 Subject: OpenVMS CD-ROMs on eBay In-Reply-To: <20160414142051.D962418C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160414142051.D962418C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Apr 14, 2016 7:20 AM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > > Here: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/391430322544 > > Sorry the notice is so short, I was going to do it a couple of days > ago, and forgot. > > Noel The seller is an active well known member of this list. (Not me) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 09:32:55 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:32:55 +0100 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: <007d01d19659$54edee70$fec9cb50$@tin.it> References: <6dvns658nuf0mso2d6xsej5e.1460641561858@email.android.com> <007d01d19659$54edee70$fec9cb50$@tin.it> Message-ID: <005901d1965a$89851b80$9c8f5280$@gmail.com> I don't think there is any point on imaging AS/400 drives. The original AS/400 OS had "single level storage" so basically a the disks were an extension to ram, or more that RAM is just a temporary disk buffer. SO just as a program in virtual memory can be spread across any location of physical memory, a "file" on an AS/400 can be spread across any number of disk sectors on any drive, which is probably why RAID is common. There is a less worse explanation here:- http://search400.techtarget.com/answer/Single-level-storage-in-the-AS-400 Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mazzini > Alessandro > Sent: 14 April 2016 15:24 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: R: Getting an ibm as/400 > > I really doubt that it can be done, and the structure of the data is totally > dissimilar from what you can see in windows/unix/vms. > Moreover there are high chances of being on hw raid > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Sam O'nella > Inviato: gioved? 14 aprile 2016 15:48 > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 > > Not sure about mounting the drive and reading the filesystem properly (not > much bad could happen from trying) but that gives you the opportunity to > back it up (dd) or to potentially hex edit the raw drive itself and overwrite the > password hash with one you do know as long as its the exact same amount > of characters. (Any different length of characters will shift the data that > sectors are looking for ans corrupt the drive). > >
-------- Original message --------
From: devin davison >
Date:04/13/2016 10:57 PM (GMT- > 06:00)
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >
Subject: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 >
The size of two pc towers. I am trying to figure out how to > log in. I tried the account qsecofr with pass qsecofr with no luck. I might > actually have a licenced os on this thing, it is very different from anything i > have worked with before. Not sure really where to go from here. > > The drives are scsi, are they in a standard filesystem format i could read in a > seperate machine? > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2016, Pontus Pihlgren > wrote: > > > Nice! I have a 170 (not up and running, no OS). Which variant do you have. > > Is it > > about the size of a PC tower or or two PC towers next to each other? > > > > /P > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 08:09:02PM -0400, devin davison wrote: > > > Alright. Picked up the machine today. Much smaller than expected, > > > but everything needed seems to be included. I got a terminal as well > > > as a box of cables. I managed to boot the machine up to the login > > > screen. However > > I > > > do not know the username or password. I was speaking with someone > on > > > the phone that was quite knowlegable, they said that after 3 > > > attempts to > > login > > > it becomes a potato. What do i do from here. I am going to try and > > contact > > > the original owners, however i believe they are unwilling to help. > > > Im > > quite > > > amazed the main drive was not wiped. Anyhow, if i can not get the > > password > > > from the original owners, there does appear to be a working install > > > on > > the > > > drives, how would I go about resetting the password to gain access > > > to the machine? The machine is a ibm as/400e 170. > > > > > > pictures to follow once I find my camera. > > > > > > --Devin > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Mazzini Alessandro > > wrote: > > > > > > > You had it easy. > > > > > > > > Once upon a time, a place I was working for decided to get a new > > > > development as/400. The toy was 2x the 270 you mentioned (hd cage > > > > taking one > > side)... > > > > and the shipping original ibm box upped the weight to dunno... > > > > king > > kong. > > > > It didn't fit in the elevator, and anyway exceeded the max weight. > > > > > > > > The office was 2 floors up.... > > > > > > > > We pushed it up, I still have the nightmares > > > > > > > > -----Messaggio originale----- > > > > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] > > > > Per > > conto di Kevin > > > > Monceaux > > > > Inviato: mercoled? 13 aprile 2016 21:09 > > > > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 01:26:29AM -0400, Ian Primus wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Jason T > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." > > > > > > > > > > Which is a fancy word for "unusually heavy for its size". > > > > > > > > That's the truth. In a previous reply I mentioned I have a "small" > > > > 9406-270 > > > > in my living room. I found it listed on eBay. It was in New York. > > I'm in > > > > Central Texas. It was listed with a flat $50 shipping fee. From > > > > the photos and shipping fee I was expecting something small enough > > > > to be shipped > > by > > > > UPS > > > > or FedEx. I made the seller an offer $50 less than the list price > > which > > > > they accepted, so I basically got free shipping. It was shipped > > > > by UPS > > > > - UPS Freight. There was no way UPS Fright could get down my > > > > driveway > > so I > > > > had to pick it up at their terminal. Fortunately it was shipped > > > > on a > > tiny > > > > pallet that just fit in the back of my mini-van. It looks like an > > > > oversized tower PC, but is definitely unusually heavy for its > > > > size. I have to > > use a > > > > dolly to move it around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > > > > http://www.Lassie.xyz > > > > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > > > > Bruceville, TX > > > > > > > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > > > > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > > > > > > > > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 14 09:33:35 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:33:35 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <570FAA3F.4000604@btinternet.com> I give up !!! I still have no idea how to register All I wanted to do was to put up some links to my latest DEC front panels Rod Smallwood On 14/04/2016 15:19, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2016-04-14 16:04 GMT+02:00 Rod Smallwood : > >> >> On 14/04/2016 14:39, Tor Arntsen wrote: >> >>> On 14 April 2016 at 09:45, Rod Smallwood >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? >>>> Its got walls like Mordor >>>> >>>> I thought I might register. I filled out their form (tedious) and hit >>>> submit. >>>> It tells me my email address is already in use ! >>>> >>> [..] >>> >>> The forum was moved to http://www.vcfed.org/forum/ recently, with all >>> the original users and posts, and it looks like you registered April >>> 29 last year. (search for yourself with site:www.vcfed.org/forum/ and >>> you'll find your user) >>> >>> -Tor >>> >> I have no idea what you are talking about. >> I have no user name no password or anything else to search with. >> Please repeat your message in understandable English > > Not sure if it helps you but Google give this by searching for Rod > Smallwood vcfed: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/member.php?35160-Rod-Smallwood&tab=activitystream&type=user > > which is what I guess Tor meant. > > /Mattis > > >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> From ik at yvanj.me Thu Apr 14 09:46:18 2016 From: ik at yvanj.me (Yvan Janssens) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:46:18 +0100 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: <005901d1965a$89851b80$9c8f5280$@gmail.com> References: <6dvns658nuf0mso2d6xsej5e.1460641561858@email.android.com> <007d01d19659$54edee70$fec9cb50$@tin.it> <005901d1965a$89851b80$9c8f5280$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Also, DD won't work on those disks; you'll have to use sg_utils and use raw SCSI commands to dump the disks. Linux DD uses the system calls to read block devices, and interestingly enough, they only support multiples of 512b for sector size on that. Dumping those disks isn't impossible, but you need the right tooling. Yvan On Thursday, 14 April 2016, Dave Wade wrote: > I don't think there is any point on imaging AS/400 drives. The original > AS/400 OS had "single level storage" so basically a the disks were an > extension to ram, or more that RAM is just a temporary disk buffer. SO just > as a program in virtual memory can be spread across any location of > physical memory, a "file" on an AS/400 can be spread across any number of > disk sectors on any drive, which is probably why RAID is common. There is a > less worse explanation here:- > > http://search400.techtarget.com/answer/Single-level-storage-in-the-AS-400 > > Dave > G4UGM > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] On > Behalf Of Mazzini > > Alessandro > > Sent: 14 April 2016 15:24 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > > Subject: R: Getting an ibm as/400 > > > > I really doubt that it can be done, and the structure of the data is > totally > > dissimilar from what you can see in windows/unix/vms. > > Moreover there are high chances of being on hw raid > > > > -----Messaggio originale----- > > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] Per > conto di Sam O'nella > > Inviato: gioved? 14 aprile 2016 15:48 > > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 > > > > Not sure about mounting the drive and reading the filesystem properly > (not > > much bad could happen from trying) but that gives you the opportunity to > > back it up (dd) or to potentially hex edit the raw drive itself and > overwrite the > > password hash with one you do know as long as its the exact same amount > > of characters. (Any different length of characters will shift the data > that > > sectors are looking for ans corrupt the drive). > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: devin davison > > >
Date:04/13/2016 10:57 > PM (GMT- > > 06:00)
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >
Subject: Re: Getting > an ibm as/400 > >
The size of two pc towers. I am trying to figure out > how to > > log in. I tried the account qsecofr with pass qsecofr with no luck. I > might > > actually have a licenced os on this thing, it is very different from > anything i > > have worked with before. Not sure really where to go from here. > > > > The drives are scsi, are they in a standard filesystem format i could > read in a > > seperate machine? > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2016, Pontus Pihlgren > > > wrote: > > > > > Nice! I have a 170 (not up and running, no OS). Which variant do you > have. > > > Is it > > > about the size of a PC tower or or two PC towers next to each other? > > > > > > /P > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 08:09:02PM -0400, devin davison wrote: > > > > Alright. Picked up the machine today. Much smaller than expected, > > > > but everything needed seems to be included. I got a terminal as well > > > > as a box of cables. I managed to boot the machine up to the login > > > > screen. However > > > I > > > > do not know the username or password. I was speaking with someone > > on > > > > the phone that was quite knowlegable, they said that after 3 > > > > attempts to > > > login > > > > it becomes a potato. What do i do from here. I am going to try and > > > contact > > > > the original owners, however i believe they are unwilling to help. > > > > Im > > > quite > > > > amazed the main drive was not wiped. Anyhow, if i can not get the > > > password > > > > from the original owners, there does appear to be a working install > > > > on > > > the > > > > drives, how would I go about resetting the password to gain access > > > > to the machine? The machine is a ibm as/400e 170. > > > > > > > > pictures to follow once I find my camera. > > > > > > > > --Devin > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Mazzini Alessandro > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > You had it easy. > > > > > > > > > > Once upon a time, a place I was working for decided to get a new > > > > > development as/400. The toy was 2x the 270 you mentioned (hd cage > > > > > taking one > > > side)... > > > > > and the shipping original ibm box upped the weight to dunno... > > > > > king > > > kong. > > > > > It didn't fit in the elevator, and anyway exceeded the max weight. > > > > > > > > > > The office was 2 floors up.... > > > > > > > > > > We pushed it up, I still have the nightmares > > > > > > > > > > -----Messaggio originale----- > > > > > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > ] > > > > > Per > > > conto di Kevin > > > > > Monceaux > > > > > Inviato: mercoled? 13 aprile 2016 21:09 > > > > > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 01:26:29AM -0400, Ian Primus wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Jason T > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." > > > > > > > > > > > > Which is a fancy word for "unusually heavy for its size". > > > > > > > > > > That's the truth. In a previous reply I mentioned I have a "small" > > > > > 9406-270 > > > > > in my living room. I found it listed on eBay. It was in New York. > > > I'm in > > > > > Central Texas. It was listed with a flat $50 shipping fee. From > > > > > the photos and shipping fee I was expecting something small enough > > > > > to be shipped > > > by > > > > > UPS > > > > > or FedEx. I made the seller an offer $50 less than the list price > > > which > > > > > they accepted, so I basically got free shipping. It was shipped > > > > > by UPS > > > > > - UPS Freight. There was no way UPS Fright could get down my > > > > > driveway > > > so I > > > > > had to pick it up at their terminal. Fortunately it was shipped > > > > > on a > > > tiny > > > > > pallet that just fit in the back of my mini-van. It looks like an > > > > > oversized tower PC, but is definitely unusually heavy for its > > > > > size. I have to > > > use a > > > > > dolly to move it around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > > > > > http://www.Lassie.xyz > > > > > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > > > > > Bruceville, TX > > > > > > > > > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > > > > > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Sent using CompuServe 1.22 From supervinx at libero.it Thu Apr 14 09:48:10 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:48:10 +0200 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <6dvns658nuf0mso2d6xsej5e.1460641561858@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1460645290.2890.2.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Well, I removed quite a lot of QSECOFR passwords... Try to boot in manual mode, 01 B M and follow this... http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=nas8N1019462 Resetting QSECOFR with an Attended IPL Hoping that DST password is still QSECOFR/QSECOFR (usually it is so) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 09:49:06 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:49:06 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <570FAA3F.4000604@btinternet.com> References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> <570FAA3F.4000604@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <005a01d1965c$cc17bb40$644731c0$@gmail.com> You must have registered on the old site, and forgotten, Go to http://www.vcfed.org/forum/login.php?do=lostpw put in your e-mail address, follow the instructions to recover user name and password. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > Smallwood > Sent: 14 April 2016 15:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Forum > > I give up !!! > I still have no idea how to register > > All I wanted to do was to put up some links to my latest DEC front panels > > Rod Smallwood > > > On 14/04/2016 15:19, Mattis Lind wrote: > > 2016-04-14 16:04 GMT+02:00 Rod Smallwood > : > > > >> > >> On 14/04/2016 14:39, Tor Arntsen wrote: > >> > >>> On 14 April 2016 at 09:45, Rod Smallwood > >>> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? > >>>> Its got walls like Mordor > >>>> > >>>> I thought I might register. I filled out their form (tedious) and > >>>> hit submit. > >>>> It tells me my email address is already in use ! > >>>> > >>> [..] > >>> > >>> The forum was moved to http://www.vcfed.org/forum/ recently, with > >>> all the original users and posts, and it looks like you registered > >>> April > >>> 29 last year. (search for yourself with site:www.vcfed.org/forum/ > >>> and you'll find your user) > >>> > >>> -Tor > >>> > >> I have no idea what you are talking about. > >> I have no user name no password or anything else to search with. > >> Please repeat your message in understandable English > > > > Not sure if it helps you but Google give this by searching for Rod > > Smallwood vcfed: > > > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/member.php?35160-Rod- > Smallwood&tab=activity > > stream&type=user > > > > which is what I guess Tor meant. > > > > /Mattis > > > > > >> > >> Rod Smallwood > >> > >> > >> From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 14 09:50:33 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:50:33 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy UK show In-Reply-To: <570FA49E.9070902@btinternet.com> References: <570F978F.2040200@btinternet.com> <066e01d19656$656692f0$3033b8d0$@gmail.com> <570FA49E.9070902@btinternet.com> Message-ID: It is a very informal event, organised by Mark in his own time. He has family and work commitments like all of us, so I expect he has not been able to find the time. Regards Rob Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Rod Smallwood Sent: 14 April 2016 15:09 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC Legacy UK show So why did it say See you in 2016? On 14/04/2016 15:03, Dave Wade wrote: > I thought Mark was only aiming for every two years. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >> Smallwood >> Sent: 14 April 2016 14:14 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> Subject: DEC Legacy UK show >> >> DEC Legacy UK show >> >> Where did it go ? >> 2015 then nothing >> >> Rod Smallwood >> > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 09:52:12 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 02:52:12 +1200 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <6dvns658nuf0mso2d6xsej5e.1460641561858@email.android.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AEF868C@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: I agree little point in imaging. First step: password guess; try logging in to account QSECOFR password QSECOFR; you may luck out and find it is the default. If that fails do a DST IPL (Google it) and use the DST QSECOFR account (NOT the same as the system QSECOFR account!) to reset the system QSECOFR password. You may luck out and find that even if they've changed the system QSECOFR password from the default, the DST QSECOFR still works. If that fails you're down to a partial reinstall - 'slipping the LIC' as Benjamin described. There IS a way of breaking into a System/36 by patching specific sectors and offsets on the disk; I have it written down somewhere. But I know of no analogous procedure for AS/400. Mike On Apr 14, 2016 10:06 AM, "Benjamin Huntsman" < BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote: Get the SLIC cd (or tape), and do a D-mode manual IPL. Reinstall (DO NOT select the option to install and initialize). This is generally referred to as "slipping the LIC". You can re-install it without trashing the OS. That'll get you into DST, where you can reset the password. What version of the OS does is currently installed? -Ben From supervinx at libero.it Thu Apr 14 10:05:41 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 17:05:41 +0200 Subject: R: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 Message-ID: Yes. I had an AS/400 disk with too many grown defects. I imaged it with sg_utils and transferred the content back to an identical disk. It booted flawlessly... From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 14 10:19:01 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:19:01 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <005a01d1965c$cc17bb40$644731c0$@gmail.com> References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> <570FAA3F.4000604@btinternet.com> <005a01d1965c$cc17bb40$644731c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <570FB4E5.1020007@btinternet.com> Tried that again same result no email. Rod On 14/04/2016 15:49, Dave Wade wrote: > You must have registered on the old site, and forgotten, > > Go to > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/login.php?do=lostpw > > > put in your e-mail address, follow the instructions to recover user name and password. > > Dave > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >> Smallwood >> Sent: 14 April 2016 15:34 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Forum >> >> I give up !!! >> I still have no idea how to register >> >> All I wanted to do was to put up some links to my latest DEC front panels >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> On 14/04/2016 15:19, Mattis Lind wrote: >>> 2016-04-14 16:04 GMT+02:00 Rod Smallwood >> : >>>> On 14/04/2016 14:39, Tor Arntsen wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 14 April 2016 at 09:45, Rod Smallwood >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? >>>>>> Its got walls like Mordor >>>>>> >>>>>> I thought I might register. I filled out their form (tedious) and >>>>>> hit submit. >>>>>> It tells me my email address is already in use ! >>>>>> >>>>> [..] >>>>> >>>>> The forum was moved to http://www.vcfed.org/forum/ recently, with >>>>> all the original users and posts, and it looks like you registered >>>>> April >>>>> 29 last year. (search for yourself with site:www.vcfed.org/forum/ >>>>> and you'll find your user) >>>>> >>>>> -Tor >>>>> >>>> I have no idea what you are talking about. >>>> I have no user name no password or anything else to search with. >>>> Please repeat your message in understandable English >>> Not sure if it helps you but Google give this by searching for Rod >>> Smallwood vcfed: >>> >>> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/member.php?35160-Rod- >> Smallwood&tab=activity >>> stream&type=user >>> >>> which is what I guess Tor meant. >>> >>> /Mattis >>> >>> >>>> Rod Smallwood >>>> >>>> >>>> > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 14 10:23:20 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 08:23:20 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <570F4AB5.9080400@btinternet.com> References: <570F4AB5.9080400@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <570FB5E8.8050801@sydex.com> On 04/14/2016 12:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? Its got walls like > Mordor For the life of me, I don't understand why the old VC Forum URL simply doesn't automatically redirect to the new one. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 14 10:28:03 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:28:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 Message-ID: <20160414152803.77BB318C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dave Wade > just as a program in virtual memory can be spread across any location > of physical memory, a "file" on an AS/400 can be spread across any > number of disk sectors on any drive Yes, but the same thing is basically true of most conventional file systems, e.g. various Unix/Linux file systems (although on most of those, files aren't spread across multiple drives, but there have been file systems that did that). > The original AS/400 OS had "single level storage" so basically the > disks were an extension to ram, or more that RAM is just a temporary > disk buffer. But that description is, in some sense, just what classic virtual memory (paging) does. The crucial difference is in what the _user sees_: in a normal virtual memory system, a process' address space is a simple one-dimensional array of bytes/words. In a single-level-store (sometimes called 'segmentation'), a process' address space is two dimensional: segment along one axis, address within segment along the other: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-level_store Of course, one can have segmentation (in the sense of 'what the process sees') _without_ virtual memory (either paging, or swapping entire segments), but most systems that implemented segmentation also did virtual memory too; Multics, and the family of IBM systems of which the AS/400 is a later member, both did. Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 14 10:30:42 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:30:42 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <005a01d1965c$cc17bb40$644731c0$@gmail.com> References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> <570FAA3F.4000604@btinternet.com> <005a01d1965c$cc17bb40$644731c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <570FB7A2.4090402@btinternet.com> I just tried that and as before nothing... I checked the date and on that day last year I was nowhere near a computer. On 14/04/2016 15:49, Dave Wade wrote: > You must have registered on the old site, and forgotten, > > Go to > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/login.php?do=lostpw > > > put in your e-mail address, follow the instructions to recover user name and password. > > Dave > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >> Smallwood >> Sent: 14 April 2016 15:34 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Forum >> >> I give up !!! >> I still have no idea how to register >> >> All I wanted to do was to put up some links to my latest DEC front panels >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> On 14/04/2016 15:19, Mattis Lind wrote: >>> 2016-04-14 16:04 GMT+02:00 Rod Smallwood >> : >>>> On 14/04/2016 14:39, Tor Arntsen wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 14 April 2016 at 09:45, Rod Smallwood >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? >>>>>> Its got walls like Mordor >>>>>> >>>>>> I thought I might register. I filled out their form (tedious) and >>>>>> hit submit. >>>>>> It tells me my email address is already in use ! >>>>>> >>>>> [..] >>>>> >>>>> The forum was moved to http://www.vcfed.org/forum/ recently, with >>>>> all the original users and posts, and it looks like you registered >>>>> April >>>>> 29 last year. (search for yourself with site:www.vcfed.org/forum/ >>>>> and you'll find your user) >>>>> >>>>> -Tor >>>>> >>>> I have no idea what you are talking about. >>>> I have no user name no password or anything else to search with. >>>> Please repeat your message in understandable English >>> Not sure if it helps you but Google give this by searching for Rod >>> Smallwood vcfed: >>> >>> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/member.php?35160-Rod- >> Smallwood&tab=activity >>> stream&type=user >>> >>> which is what I guess Tor meant. >>> >>> /Mattis >>> >>> >>>> Rod Smallwood >>>> >>>> >>>> > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 14 10:45:51 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:45:51 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <570FB5E8.8050801@sydex.com> References: <570F4AB5.9080400@btinternet.com> <570FB5E8.8050801@sydex.com> Message-ID: <570FBB2F.20208@btinternet.com> It would appear the transition did not go well. I thinks I registered when I had not. I keep getting told to recover my non existent user name and password. So I put in my email address as asked and of course it doesn't send anything because there is nothing to send. Rod On 14/04/2016 16:23, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/14/2016 12:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? Its got walls like >> Mordor > For the life of me, I don't understand why the old VC Forum URL simply > doesn't automatically redirect to the new one. > > --Chuck > > > From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 11:04:31 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 18:04:31 +0200 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <570FBB2F.20208@btinternet.com> References: <570F4AB5.9080400@btinternet.com> <570FB5E8.8050801@sydex.com> <570FBB2F.20208@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 14 April 2016 at 17:45, Rod Smallwood wrote: > So I put in my email address as asked and of course it doesn't send > anything because there is nothing to send. Rod, I note that on the list you've used 2 different email addresses: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com & rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Do you still have access to both? Is it possible that you used the older of the 2? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 14 11:14:23 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 17:14:23 +0100 Subject: OpenVMS CD-ROMs on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20160414142051.D962418C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <570FC1DF.4070006@ntlworld.com> On 14/04/16 15:29, Glen Slick wrote: > On Apr 14, 2016 7:20 AM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: >> Here: >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/391430322544 >> >> Sorry the notice is so short, I was going to do it a couple of days >> ago, and forgot. >> >> Noel > The seller is an active well known member of this list. (Not me) > Only $67 shipping to the UK :-) I probably have enough of those to keep me going anyway. The black and silver ones are likely to be older (and therefore perhaps more interesting) than the red and white ones. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 14 11:22:06 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:22:06 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: <570F05E8.2070201@jwsss.com> References: <570EEFD7.2050909@bitsavers.org> <570F05E8.2070201@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <570FC3AE.7080908@bitsavers.org> On 4/13/16 7:52 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > Side discussion on Facebook says that media is rare too. None with the > system (I think) from the discussion there. > I have tons of it. They are 12 sector 2315 packs. You have to duplicate it on a two drive Alto, since the format is unique. I've heard LCM has written some code to load it from the Alto pack images that I created. Dug out my list of serial numbers, and it isn't one that I've seen before. It probably is a 3K XM unit, but who knows, since the seller is clueless, and doesn't know the installed card compliment is critical to getting it running. It's pretty much impossible to get a broken one running without a known good card set to isolate problems with, since it was assumed that debugging would be done with the shop test Alto that had special hardware debug sauce. I'm also assuming whoever has it reads this list, since the BIN just happens to match what I've been offered for the machines that I still have. From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Thu Apr 14 11:34:07 2016 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:34:07 -0400 Subject: OpenVMS CD-ROMs on eBay In-Reply-To: <570FC1DF.4070006@ntlworld.com> References: <20160414142051.D962418C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <570FC1DF.4070006@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <570FC67F.9040801@yahoo.com> On 4/14/2016 12:14 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 14/04/16 15:29, Glen Slick wrote: >> On Apr 14, 2016 7:20 AM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: >>> Here: >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/391430322544 >>> >>> Sorry the notice is so short, I was going to do it a couple of days >>> ago, and forgot. >>> >>> Noel >> The seller is an active well known member of this list. (Not me) >> > Only $67 shipping to the UK :-) > > I probably have enough of those to keep me going anyway. The black and silver ones are likely to > be older (and therefore perhaps more interesting) than the red and white ones. > > Antonio > Sold for $89. And I thought my bid was high at $60. John H. Reinhardt From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 11:40:32 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 17:40:32 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <570FB4E5.1020007@btinternet.com> References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> <570FAA3F.4000604@btinternet.com> <005a01d1965c$cc17bb40$644731c0$@gmail.com> <570FB4E5.1020007@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <008f01d1966c$5d4ae9c0$17e0bd40$@gmail.com> BT Being aggressive with its SPAM filters? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > Smallwood > Sent: 14 April 2016 16:19 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Forum > > Tried that again same result no email. > Rod > > > On 14/04/2016 15:49, Dave Wade wrote: > > You must have registered on the old site, and forgotten, > > > > Go to > > > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/login.php?do=lostpw > > > > > > put in your e-mail address, follow the instructions to recover user name and > password. > > > > Dave > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > >> Smallwood > >> Sent: 14 April 2016 15:34 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > >> Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Forum > >> > >> I give up !!! > >> I still have no idea how to register > >> > >> All I wanted to do was to put up some links to my latest DEC front > >> panels > >> > >> Rod Smallwood > >> > >> > >> On 14/04/2016 15:19, Mattis Lind wrote: > >>> 2016-04-14 16:04 GMT+02:00 Rod Smallwood > >> : > >>>> On 14/04/2016 14:39, Tor Arntsen wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> On 14 April 2016 at 09:45, Rod Smallwood > >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? > >>>>>> Its got walls like Mordor > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I thought I might register. I filled out their form (tedious) and > >>>>>> hit submit. > >>>>>> It tells me my email address is already in use ! > >>>>>> > >>>>> [..] > >>>>> > >>>>> The forum was moved to http://www.vcfed.org/forum/ recently, with > >>>>> all the original users and posts, and it looks like you registered > >>>>> April > >>>>> 29 last year. (search for yourself with site:www.vcfed.org/forum/ > >>>>> and you'll find your user) > >>>>> > >>>>> -Tor > >>>>> > >>>> I have no idea what you are talking about. > >>>> I have no user name no password or anything else to search with. > >>>> Please repeat your message in understandable English > >>> Not sure if it helps you but Google give this by searching for Rod > >>> Smallwood vcfed: > >>> > >>> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/member.php?35160-Rod- > >> Smallwood&tab=activity > >>> stream&type=user > >>> > >>> which is what I guess Tor meant. > >>> > >>> /Mattis > >>> > >>> > >>>> Rod Smallwood > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Apr 14 11:55:29 2016 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:55:29 +0000 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: <570FC3AE.7080908@bitsavers.org> References: <570EEFD7.2050909@bitsavers.org> <570F05E8.2070201@jwsss.com> <570FC3AE.7080908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F161@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 9:22 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on eBay > > > > On 4/13/16 7:52 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > Side discussion on Facebook says that media is rare too. None with > > the system (I think) from the discussion there. > > > > I have tons of it. They are 12 sector 2315 packs. > You have to duplicate it on a two drive Alto, since the format is unique. I've > heard LCM has written some code to load it from the Alto pack images that I > created. Yes, we're able to duplicate packs and write new ones out from disk images. (At the moment it's kind of cumbersome -- involving a PDP-11/44 with a 3mbit Ethernet board, a seriously hacked 2.11BSD kernel and a bit of luck -- but we're working on a more elegant solution.) If anyone out there ends up with a working Alto and needs working media, we can help out in that regard (assuming you provide usable packs). - Josh Sr. Vintage Software Engineer Living Computer Museum www.livingcomputermuseum.org From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 14 11:57:47 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:57:47 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F161@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <570EEFD7.2050909@bitsavers.org> <570F05E8.2070201@jwsss.com> <570FC3AE.7080908@bitsavers.org> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F161@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <570FCC0B.3060302@bitsavers.org> On 4/14/16 9:55 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > If anyone out there ends up with a working Alto and needs working media, we can help out in that regard (assuming you provide usable packs). Have you ever gotten a pack from an RK05 to write? I've tried a couple of times without luck and have wondered if they needed to be bulk-erased first. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 14 12:03:53 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 10:03:53 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: <570FC3AE.7080908@bitsavers.org> References: <570EEFD7.2050909@bitsavers.org> <570F05E8.2070201@jwsss.com> <570FC3AE.7080908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <570FCD79.1080207@bitsavers.org> On 4/14/16 9:22 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I'm also assuming whoever has it reads this list, since the BIN just > happens to match what I've been offered for the machines that I still > have. > In restored condition.. From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Apr 14 12:05:58 2016 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 17:05:58 +0000 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: <570FCC0B.3060302@bitsavers.org> References: <570EEFD7.2050909@bitsavers.org> <570F05E8.2070201@jwsss.com> <570FC3AE.7080908@bitsavers.org> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F161@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <570FCC0B.3060302@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F182@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 9:58 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on eBay > > > > On 4/14/16 9:55 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > If anyone out there ends up with a working Alto and needs working media, > we can help out in that regard (assuming you provide usable packs). > > Have you ever gotten a pack from an RK05 to write? > > I've tried a couple of times without luck and have wondered if they needed > to be bulk-erased first. > Yes, I've re-used a handful of 12-sector packs formerly used on a PDP-11 in an RK05 without any issues. I suppose it might be possible that if the alignments of the Diablo in the Alto and the RK05 used to write the pack originally are off by enough that there could be some odd issues (old data left halfway between the new tracks?) but that's purely speculation on my part. Bulk erasing certainly couldn't hurt. - Josh From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 14 12:15:02 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 18:15:02 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <008f01d1966c$5d4ae9c0$17e0bd40$@gmail.com> References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> <570FAA3F.4000604@btinternet.com> <005a01d1965c$cc17bb40$644731c0$@gmail.com> <570FB4E5.1020007@btinternet.com> <008f01d1966c$5d4ae9c0$17e0bd40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <570FD016.70105@btinternet.com> Hi I don't think so. Actually I should look in the junk folder Nope nuffin in there. Whoever is running this site should just delete my account and let me start as a new user. Rod On 14/04/2016 17:40, Dave Wade wrote: > BT Being aggressive with its SPAM filters? > > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >> Smallwood >> Sent: 14 April 2016 16:19 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Forum >> >> Tried that again same result no email. >> Rod >> >> >> On 14/04/2016 15:49, Dave Wade wrote: >>> You must have registered on the old site, and forgotten, >>> >>> Go to >>> >>> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/login.php?do=lostpw >>> >>> >>> put in your e-mail address, follow the instructions to recover user name and >> password. >>> Dave >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >>>> Smallwood >>>> Sent: 14 April 2016 15:34 >>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Forum >>>> >>>> I give up !!! >>>> I still have no idea how to register >>>> >>>> All I wanted to do was to put up some links to my latest DEC front >>>> panels >>>> >>>> Rod Smallwood >>>> >>>> >>>> On 14/04/2016 15:19, Mattis Lind wrote: >>>>> 2016-04-14 16:04 GMT+02:00 Rod Smallwood >>>> : >>>>>> On 14/04/2016 14:39, Tor Arntsen wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 14 April 2016 at 09:45, Rod Smallwood >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? >>>>>>>> Its got walls like Mordor >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I thought I might register. I filled out their form (tedious) and >>>>>>>> hit submit. >>>>>>>> It tells me my email address is already in use ! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> [..] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The forum was moved to http://www.vcfed.org/forum/ recently, with >>>>>>> all the original users and posts, and it looks like you registered >>>>>>> April >>>>>>> 29 last year. (search for yourself with site:www.vcfed.org/forum/ >>>>>>> and you'll find your user) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Tor >>>>>>> >>>>>> I have no idea what you are talking about. >>>>>> I have no user name no password or anything else to search with. >>>>>> Please repeat your message in understandable English >>>>> Not sure if it helps you but Google give this by searching for Rod >>>>> Smallwood vcfed: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/member.php?35160-Rod- >>>> Smallwood&tab=activity >>>>> stream&type=user >>>>> >>>>> which is what I guess Tor meant. >>>>> >>>>> /Mattis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Rod Smallwood >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 14 12:26:11 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 18:26:11 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <20160414161521.Horde.rN8MEniirl_iAGSvoPlJK1M@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> <20160414161521.Horde.rN8MEniirl_iAGSvoPlJK1M@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <570FD2B3.5070909@btinternet.com> It wasn't me! On 14/04/2016 15:15, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > > Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> I have no idea what you are talking about. >> I have no user name no password or anything else to search with. >> Please repeat your message in understandable English >> >> Rod Smallwood > > Try: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/member.php?35160-Rod-Smallwood > > > Join Date > April 29th, 2015 > > Last Activity > November 12th, 2015 03:47 AM From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 14 12:28:00 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 13:28:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay Message-ID: <20160414172801.0126E18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch >> They are 12 sector 2315 packs. You have to duplicate it on a two drive >> Alto, since the format is unique. > we're able to duplicate packs and write new ones out from disk images. > (At the moment it's kind of cumbersome -- involving a PDP-11/44 with a > 3mbit Ethernet board, a seriously hacked 2.11BSD kernel and a bit of > luck You mean the RK11 controller can write packs that the Alto disk controller can read? (As in, the low-level format - preamble, sector header, sector checksum, etc, etc are all identical?) Wow, I never knew that - that would have been a useful thing to know BITD - we had both at MIT (we got the Altos as part of the 3-university Xerox grant), and although I'm not sure we really needed to be able to transfer bits from one kind of machine to another, it might have been useful for something or other. We did send a lot of files over the network to an Alto, but it was the Dover printer spooler machine - using a disk pack for that function wasn't really an option! :-) Noel From jsw at ieee.org Thu Apr 14 12:28:55 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:28:55 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F182@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <570EEFD7.2050909@bitsavers.org> <570F05E8.2070201@jwsss.com> <570FC3AE.7080908@bitsavers.org> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F161@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <570FCC0B.3060302@bitsavers.org> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F182@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <24DA5337-5D9B-436A-B438-A6CEC8CB9DCE@ieee.org> > > On Apr 14, 2016, at 12:05 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow >> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 9:58 AM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on eBay >> >> >> >> On 4/14/16 9:55 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> If anyone out there ends up with a working Alto and needs working media, >> we can help out in that regard (assuming you provide usable packs). >> >> Have you ever gotten a pack from an RK05 to write? >> >> I've tried a couple of times without luck and have wondered if they needed >> to be bulk-erased first. >> > > Yes, I've re-used a handful of 12-sector packs formerly used on a PDP-11 in an RK05 without any issues. I suppose it might be possible that if the alignments of the Diablo in the Alto and the RK05 used to write the pack originally are off by enough that there could be some odd issues (old data left halfway between the new tracks?) but that's purely speculation on my part. Bulk erasing certainly couldn't hurt. > > - Josh > We used to swap packs between Diablo?s and RK05?s all the time. We had third party Qbus controller (18bit!) on an 11/73 and an RK11D on a PDP11/34. Never had an interchange problem. Jerry From jsw at ieee.org Thu Apr 14 12:32:26 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:32:26 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: <20160414172801.0126E18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160414172801.0126E18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Apr 14, 2016, at 12:28 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Josh Dersch > >>> They are 12 sector 2315 packs. You have to duplicate it on a two drive >>> Alto, since the format is unique. > >> we're able to duplicate packs and write new ones out from disk images. >> (At the moment it's kind of cumbersome -- involving a PDP-11/44 with a >> 3mbit Ethernet board, a seriously hacked 2.11BSD kernel and a bit of >> luck > > You mean the RK11 controller can write packs that the Alto disk controller > can read? (As in, the low-level format - preamble, sector header, sector > checksum, etc, etc are all identical?) > > Wow, I never knew that - that would have been a useful thing to know BITD - > we had both at MIT (we got the Altos as part of the 3-university Xerox > grant), and although I'm not sure we really needed to be able to transfer > bits from one kind of machine to another, it might have been useful for > something or other. > > We did send a lot of files over the network to an Alto, but it was the Dover > printer spooler machine - using a disk pack for that function wasn't really an > option! :-) > > Noel Not only that, but we used Diablo Drives on RK05 Controllers. If you had a mix of Diablo and RK05 drives, the order and termination was a bit tricky but it worked. From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Apr 14 12:34:03 2016 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 17:34:03 +0000 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: <20160414172801.0126E18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160414172801.0126E18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F1C0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 10:28 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on eBay > > > From: Josh Dersch > > >> They are 12 sector 2315 packs. You have to duplicate it on a two drive > >> Alto, since the format is unique. > > > we're able to duplicate packs and write new ones out from disk images. > > (At the moment it's kind of cumbersome -- involving a PDP-11/44 with a > > 3mbit Ethernet board, a seriously hacked 2.11BSD kernel and a bit of > > luck > > You mean the RK11 controller can write packs that the Alto disk controller can > read? (As in, the low-level format - preamble, sector header, sector > checksum, etc, etc are all identical?) No, they're as different as can be. The key is that we have a Xerox UNIBUS 3Mbit Ethernet board in the 11/44 (kindly provided by Al.) I modified the 2.11BSD kernel to support the 3Mbit board (there's already technically a driver but it was incredibly broken and I'm not sure it ever actually ran on a PDP-11), added support for reading/writing raw Ethernet packets using BSD sockets (and added support for that to the DEUNA/DELUA driver as well) and wrote a rough implementation of PUP BSP and the Alto CopyDisk protocol on top of all of that. It was fun! So we copy disk images to/from the PDP-11/44 over 3Mbit Ethernet to the Alto :). - Josh From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 14 12:48:56 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 13:48:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay Message-ID: <20160414174856.2A84118C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > we copy disk images to/from the PDP-11/44 over 3Mbit Ethernet to the > Alto :). Ah, got it. In the context of the thread, with all the RK05 discussion, I wrongly assumed that somehow there was an RK05 involved. > wrote a rough implementation of PUP BSP and the Alto CopyDisk protocol > on top of all of that. It was fun! I can imagine! You must be the first person in about 30 years to do a PUP implementation! :-) > From: Jerry Weiss > Not only that, but we used Diablo Drives on RK05 Controllers. That doesn't surprise me one bit - the RK11-C was designed to drive Diablo drives, and the controller/drive interface was kept almost identical in the RK11-D (the only difference being the drive select stuff). But the drive (either RK05 or Diablo) only provides a bit stream and sector pulses over that interface, so turning that bit string into a sector is controller-specific, and it would have been somewhat astonishing if the PDP-11 and Alto interfaces had used a compatible low-level format. And, as Josh indicated, in fact, they did not. Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 14 12:53:31 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 18:53:31 +0100 Subject: Panel Shipmnets Message-ID: <570FD91B.2090708@btinternet.com> Hi Guys All outstanding PDP-8/e A and B front panels have shipped and should reach US customers around 20/21 March. Next to go will be 8/f and /m. I'm building up stock so as to have at least ten of all of the popular range available. By some miracle we did manage to same day ship a stock panel order to a UK customer. He got it the next day. He nearly had a fit .. He thought we were in the US!! Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 10:43:25 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:43:25 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? Message-ID: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> Is there ever any Vintage Computer Festivals in Oklahoma? If not How would I go about setting one up in Tulsa? I can have use of any of the buildings at the fairgrounds...? -- * * From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 13:53:35 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:53:35 +1200 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20160414172801.0126E18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F1C0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Apr 14, 2016 1:34 PM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > So we copy disk images to/from the PDP-11/44 over 3Mbit Ethernet to the Alto :). > > - Josh > Quite a hack! So you copy in real time as it were? Direct from packs on a running Alto to packs on a running 11? Would it be practical to hack it further to capture the data to an image file so anyone with an 11 / RK combo could write packs? I have 6085s and Stars; I'd love an Alto to round out the collection - but not at $40k! Crazy prices these days; I've never paid more than a couple of grand for anything - and usually a lot less. Mike From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 13:58:30 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:58:30 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum References: <570F4AB5.9080400@btinternet.com> <570FB5E8.8050801@sydex.com> Message-ID: <82678FA6774E4953920BC6F1083E3592@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 11:23 AM Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Forum > On 04/14/2016 12:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? Its got walls like >> Mordor > > For the life of me, I don't understand why the old VC Forum URL simply > doesn't automatically redirect to the new one. > > --Chuck > -------------------- It does for me. www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/ >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/activity.php Sounds like someone else with Rod's name is already registered. Rod, send me what you want to say and I'll post it in the DEC forum on your behalf. mike From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Apr 14 14:31:33 2016 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:31:33 +0000 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20160414172801.0126E18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F1C0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F23F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 11:54 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Xerox Alto on eBay > > On Apr 14, 2016 1:34 PM, "Josh Dersch" > > wrote: > > > So we copy disk images to/from the PDP-11/44 over 3Mbit Ethernet to > > the > Alto :). > > > > - Josh > > > > Quite a hack! So you copy in real time as it were? Direct from packs on a > running Alto to packs on a running 11? Would it be practical to hack it further > to capture the data to an image file so anyone with an 11 / RK combo could > write packs? No, I copy from an image file on the 2.11BSD filesystem on the 11 to a disk pack on the Alto -- the Alto's disk controller and Diablo drive do all the actual formatting/writing. The RK11 controllers have a completely different format from the Alto. > > I have 6085s and Stars; I'd love an Alto to round out the collection - but not at > $40k! Crazy prices these days; I've never paid more than a couple of grand for > anything - and usually a lot less. Me too, but I think I'll just have to dream about it. I've been working on a project though... - Josh > > Mike From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 14:50:04 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:50:04 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F23F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20160414172801.0126E18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F1C0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F23F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: $40K and the guy can't even be arsed to take pictures. What a dick... On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Josh Dersch < JoshD at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike > Ross > > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 11:54 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Xerox Alto on eBay > > > > On Apr 14, 2016 1:34 PM, "Josh Dersch" > > > > wrote: > > > > > So we copy disk images to/from the PDP-11/44 over 3Mbit Ethernet to > > > the > > Alto :). > > > > > > - Josh > > > > > > > Quite a hack! So you copy in real time as it were? Direct from packs on a > > running Alto to packs on a running 11? Would it be practical to hack it > further > > to capture the data to an image file so anyone with an 11 / RK combo > could > > write packs? > > No, I copy from an image file on the 2.11BSD filesystem on the 11 to a > disk pack on the Alto -- the Alto's disk controller and Diablo drive do all > the actual formatting/writing. The RK11 controllers have a completely > different format from the Alto. > > > > > I have 6085s and Stars; I'd love an Alto to round out the collection - > but not at > > $40k! Crazy prices these days; I've never paid more than a couple of > grand for > > anything - and usually a lot less. > > Me too, but I think I'll just have to dream about it. I've been working > on a project though... > > - Josh > > > > > > Mike > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 15:24:00 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:24:00 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20160414172801.0126E18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F1C0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F23F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: There are pics - scroll right from the first pic - the one borrowed from the internet. On Apr 14, 2016 3:50 PM, "Ian Finder" wrote: > $40K and the guy can't even be arsed to take pictures. What a dick... > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Josh Dersch < > JoshD at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike > > Ross > > > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 11:54 AM > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: RE: Xerox Alto on eBay > > > > > > On Apr 14, 2016 1:34 PM, "Josh Dersch" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > So we copy disk images to/from the PDP-11/44 over 3Mbit Ethernet to > > > > the > > > Alto :). > > > > > > > > - Josh > > > > > > > > > > Quite a hack! So you copy in real time as it were? Direct from packs > on a > > > running Alto to packs on a running 11? Would it be practical to hack it > > further > > > to capture the data to an image file so anyone with an 11 / RK combo > > could > > > write packs? > > > > No, I copy from an image file on the 2.11BSD filesystem on the 11 to a > > disk pack on the Alto -- the Alto's disk controller and Diablo drive do > all > > the actual formatting/writing. The RK11 controllers have a completely > > different format from the Alto. > > > > > > > > I have 6085s and Stars; I'd love an Alto to round out the collection - > > but not at > > > $40k! Crazy prices these days; I've never paid more than a couple of > > grand for > > > anything - and usually a lot less. > > > > Me too, but I think I'll just have to dream about it. I've been working > > on a project though... > > > > - Josh > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 15:48:14 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 13:48:14 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20160414172801.0126E18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F1C0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062998F23F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> There are pics - scroll right from the first pic - the one borrowed from the internet. I meant Cardcage / internal pictures which I know more than a few people on this list have asked for... On Apr 14, 2016 3:50 PM, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > > $40K and the guy can't even be arsed to take pictures. What a dick... > > > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Josh Dersch < > > JoshD at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > Mike > > > Ross > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 11:54 AM > > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: RE: Xerox Alto on eBay > > > > > > > > On Apr 14, 2016 1:34 PM, "Josh Dersch" > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > So we copy disk images to/from the PDP-11/44 over 3Mbit Ethernet to > > > > > the > > > > Alto :). > > > > > > > > > > - Josh > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quite a hack! So you copy in real time as it were? Direct from packs > > on a > > > > running Alto to packs on a running 11? Would it be practical to hack > it > > > further > > > > to capture the data to an image file so anyone with an 11 / RK combo > > > could > > > > write packs? > > > > > > No, I copy from an image file on the 2.11BSD filesystem on the 11 to a > > > disk pack on the Alto -- the Alto's disk controller and Diablo drive do > > all > > > the actual formatting/writing. The RK11 controllers have a completely > > > different format from the Alto. > > > > > > > > > > > I have 6085s and Stars; I'd love an Alto to round out the > collection - > > > but not at > > > > $40k! Crazy prices these days; I've never paid more than a couple of > > > grand for > > > > anything - and usually a lot less. > > > > > > Me too, but I think I'll just have to dream about it. I've been > working > > > on a project though... > > > > > > - Josh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ian Finder > > (206) 395-MIPS > > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ethan at 757.org Thu Apr 14 16:33:18 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 17:33:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Is there ever any Vintage Computer Festivals in Oklahoma? If not How > would I go about setting one up in Tulsa? I can have use of any of the > buildings at the fairgrounds...? Make like a shoe... and do it! -- Ethan O'Toole From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 14 17:16:38 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> Is there ever any Vintage Computer Festivals in Oklahoma? If not How >> would I go about setting one up in Tulsa? I can have use of any of the >> buildings at the fairgrounds...? On Thu, 14 Apr 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Make like a shoe... and do it! If he comes up with his own name, then there is nothing stopping him from putting it together completely independently. If he wants to use the VCF name, then he should talk tothose currently doing it. From alan at alanlee.org Thu Apr 14 17:17:08 2016 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 18:17:08 -0400 Subject: VCF Southeast Video Channel Message-ID: <79f6fa2b3289045f8e463348640c27ca@alanlee.org> Our presentation series during VCF-SE events has been recorded from the 1.0 event to the 4.0 event which happened two weeks ago. In the past, good intentions to get videos edited and posted in a timely manor have been out-weighed by real-life demands. I'm hoping to break the cycle starting this year. Below is the first video from the 4.0 event of Sunday's talk by Bil Herd from early Commodore. He was scheduled in advance, but due to a scheduling mixup, had to fly in last minute and give an ad-hoc presentation. My intention is to edit and post one video every two weeks, starting with 4.0 videos, until the entire 4, 3, 2, 1.0 backlog is cleared. I will cross post announcements for new videos as they are posted to AHCS list, cctalk, and VCF-SE info lists. You can also subscribe to our Vimeo channel to get push updates as they happen. So here is the link to Bil's great talk: https://vimeo.com/161861581 [1] Alan Hightower AHCS Treasurer / VCF-SE Minion alan at alanlee.org Links: ------ [1] https://vimeo.com/161861581 From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 14 17:28:38 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 23:28:38 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <82678FA6774E4953920BC6F1083E3592@310e2> References: <570F4AB5.9080400@btinternet.com> <570FB5E8.8050801@sydex.com> <82678FA6774E4953920BC6F1083E3592@310e2> Message-ID: <57101996.1000000@btinternet.com> On 14/04/2016 19:58, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck Guzis" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 11:23 AM > Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Forum > > >> On 04/14/2016 12:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> Whats the matter with Vintage Computer Forum ? Its got walls like >>> Mordor >> For the life of me, I don't understand why the old VC Forum URL simply >> doesn't automatically redirect to the new one. >> >> --Chuck >> > -------------------- > > It does for me. > > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/ >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/activity.php > > Sounds like someone else with Rod's name is already registered. > > Rod, send me what you want to say and I'll post it in the DEC forum on your behalf. > > mike > > Thanks Mike It ain't that easy. I'm guy that makes the reproduction front panels for PDP-8 and soon PDP-11's I need to post progress reports and set links to pictures etc. Rod From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Apr 14 19:18:19 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 12:18:19 +1200 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <57101996.1000000@btinternet.com> References: <570F4AB5.9080400@btinternet.com> <570FB5E8.8050801@sydex.com> <82678FA6774E4953920BC6F1083E3592@310e2> <57101996.1000000@btinternet.com> Message-ID: >It does for me. >www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/ >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/activity.php Yes, me too. My experience of the whole thing was a seamless one. I'm redirected from my old bookmarked link and everything works just as it did. Terry (Tez) From ethan at 757.org Thu Apr 14 19:52:54 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 20:52:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> Message-ID: > If he comes up with his own name, then there is nothing stopping him from > putting it together completely independently. > If he wants to use the VCF name, then he should talk tothose currently doing > it. Is it a trademark like Maker Faire where everyone has to pay per-attendee royalties to use the name on their event? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 14 20:08:09 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 18:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> If he comes up with his own name, then there is nothing stopping him from >> putting it together completely independently. >> If he wants to use the VCF name, then he should talk tothose currently >> doing it. On Thu, 14 Apr 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Is it a trademark like Maker Faire where everyone has to pay per-attendee > royalties to use the name on their event? It is a trademark, but I have no idea what the terms are. Evan? did not apparently have much difficulty negotiating with Sellam to use the trademark. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 14 20:10:04 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 18:10:04 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: References: <570F4AB5.9080400@btinternet.com> <570FB5E8.8050801@sydex.com> <82678FA6774E4953920BC6F1083E3592@310e2> <57101996.1000000@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <57103F6C.6090807@sydex.com> On 04/14/2016 05:18 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: >> It does for me. > >> www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/ >> > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/activity.php It does for me now, but didn't when the switchover was first made. Perhaps I jumped the gun. --Chuck From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Apr 14 20:37:06 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:37:06 -0400 Subject: CYCLOPS: Here it is, but come see it in person at VCF East Message-ID: <215201d196b7$52546820$f6fd3860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Hi, Decapped chip (via X-Acto) (Mostek, 1976 date code, TYPE B): http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4140002.JPG All wired up: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4140003.JPG Money shot (just like Popular Electronics): http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4140004.JPG Test target: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4140005.JPG Looks good: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4140008.JPG How about a hand?: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4140009.JPG By the way, my hand looks much better than that, the camera "freezes" a frame which doesn't look so good. Bill S. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 14 20:40:56 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 01:40:56 +0000 Subject: CYCLOPS: Here it is, but come see it in person at VCF East In-Reply-To: <215201d196b7$52546820$f6fd3860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <215201d196b7$52546820$f6fd3860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: Most cool!!! Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Sudbrink Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 6:37 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: CYCLOPS: Here it is, but come see it in person at VCF East Hi, Decapped chip (via X-Acto) (Mostek, 1976 date code, TYPE B): http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4140002.JPG All wired up: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4140003.JPG Money shot (just like Popular Electronics): http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4140004.JPG Test target: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4140005.JPG Looks good: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4140008.JPG How about a hand?: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4140009.JPG By the way, my hand looks much better than that, the camera "freezes" a frame which doesn't look so good. Bill S. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 14 20:42:20 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 20:42:20 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> No, it was not trademarked. Not until VERY recently, even if so. I'm not convinced it is.... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 8:08 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Festivals??? >> If he comes up with his own name, then there is nothing stopping him >> from putting it together completely independently. >> If he wants to use the VCF name, then he should talk tothose >> currently doing it. On Thu, 14 Apr 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Is it a trademark like Maker Faire where everyone has to pay > per-attendee royalties to use the name on their event? It is a trademark, but I have no idea what the terms are. Evan? did not apparently have much difficulty negotiating with Sellam to use the trademark. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 14 20:53:45 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 01:53:45 +0000 Subject: Lost a friend In-Reply-To: <215201d196b7$52546820$f6fd3860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <215201d196b7$52546820$f6fd3860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: Sandy Bungarner was a friend that I'd known for 15 or 20 years. He was one of the principle designers of the code that went into Jef Raskin's Canon Cat. He was also a professor a Gavilan College, near Gilroy, Ca. He'd been fighting cancer for more years than I can remember. I suspect not to many knew him but he also loved computers. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 14 21:14:16 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 02:14:16 +0000 Subject: Lost a friend In-Reply-To: References: <215201d196b7$52546820$f6fd3860$@sudbrink@verizon.net>, Message-ID: Oops, I misspelled his name. I broke my right wrist and I forget to proof read. Sandy Bumgarner Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 6:53 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Lost a friend Sandy Bungarner was a friend that I'd known for 15 or 20 years. He was one of the principle designers of the code that went into Jef Raskin's Canon Cat. He was also a professor a Gavilan College, near Gilroy, Ca. He'd been fighting cancer for more years than I can remember. I suspect not to many knew him but he also loved computers. Dwight From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Apr 14 21:39:30 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:39:30 -0700 Subject: CYCLOPS: Here it is, but come see it in person at VCF East In-Reply-To: <215201d196b7$52546820$f6fd3860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <215201d196b7$52546820$f6fd3860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 2016-Apr-14, at 6:37 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > ... > Looks good: > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4140008.JPG > > How about a hand?: > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/cyclops-latest/P4140009.JPG > ... Wow, (that was quick), great job to get one of these working. (I finally get to see an image from a Cyclops camera - never did from the one I assembled.) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 14 21:43:28 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lost a friend In-Reply-To: References: <215201d196b7$52546820$f6fd3860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Apr 2016, dwight wrote: > Sandy BuMgarner was a friend that I'd known for 15 or 20 years. > He was one of the principle designers of the code that went into > Jef Raskin's Canon Cat. > He was also a professor a Gavilan College, near Gilroy, Ca. > He'd been fighting cancer for more years than I can remember. > I suspect not to many knew him but he also loved computers. We will miss John. Is there anybody left with his mastery of Forth? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Apr 14 21:50:00 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:50:00 -0400 Subject: CYCLOPS: Here it is, but come see it in person at VCF East In-Reply-To: References: <215201d196b7$52546820$f6fd3860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <216d01d196c1$812f72c0$838e5840$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Brent Hilpert > Wow, (that was quick), great job to get one of these working. Thanks. Quick? Actually, I've been working on it for several years. The assembly was fairly quick. If you have all of the parts in one place, a competent solderer should be able to build it in a few hours. > (I finally get to see an image from a Cyclops camera - never > did from the one I assembled.) Looks even better live. Come see it at VCF East. Bill S. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Apr 14 22:19:22 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 20:19:22 -0700 Subject: CYCLOPS: Here it is, but come see it in person at VCF East In-Reply-To: <216d01d196c1$812f72c0$838e5840$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <215201d196b7$52546820$f6fd3860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <216d01d196c1$812f72c0$838e5840$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <94374C17-79C5-461B-B321-74DFB2B06407@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Apr-14, at 7:50 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Brent Hilpert >> Wow, (that was quick), great job to get one of these working. > > Thanks. Quick? Actually, I've been working on it for several > years. The assembly was fairly quick. If you have all of the > parts in one place, a competent solderer should be able to build > it in a few hours. (Well it was pretty quick from when you mentioned it here.) I had assumed that you came across a hobbyist unit built in the 70's and was repairing or completing it. Sounds like that's incorrect - this is a new build from scratch?, including the printed circuit boards? I had actually wondered from years ago whether the design ever did work reliably, or whether it might be the sort of magazine project where 1 in 100 might function, e.g. say, the memory chips were an iffy proposition as image sensor. Very pleased to see one work. (The one I assembled I had to return to the owner after assembly, we tried it one afternoon with his IMSAI and/or with the scope interface as I recall, but after that it was out of my purview.) >> (I finally get to see an image from a Cyclops camera - never >> did from the one I assembled.) > > Looks even better live. Come see it at VCF East. (On the north-west coast here - bit of a trip to there). From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Apr 15 02:40:41 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 09:40:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <6dvns658nuf0mso2d6xsej5e.1460641561858@email.android.com> <007d01d19659$54edee70$fec9cb50$@tin.it> <005901d1965a$89851b80$9c8f5280$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Apr 2016, Yvan Janssens wrote: > Also, DD won't work on those disks; you'll have to use sg_utils and use raw > SCSI commands to dump the disks. Linux DD uses the system calls to read > block devices, and interestingly enough, they only support multiples of > 512b for sector size on that. > > Dumping those disks isn't impossible, but you need the right tooling. Yes, the tool is simply called 'sg_dd' and works just like 'dd'. You must specify the right block size, though. Christian From theevilapplepie at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 04:43:59 2016 From: theevilapplepie at gmail.com (James Vess) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 04:43:59 -0500 Subject: Getting an ibm as/400 In-Reply-To: References: <20160413015935.GA25131@RawFedDogs.net> <20160413190831.GA11866@RawFedDogs.net> <009501d195c5$7d3b9dd0$77b2d970$@tin.it> <20160414034315.GA28898@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Beautiful! Congratulations on the system On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 11:09 PM, devin davison wrote: > Couple of pictures. > > http://s20.postimg.org/zf5twva0d/20160413_210749.jpg > > > http://s20.postimg.org/dephg8rcd/20160413_210826.jpg > > http://s20.postimg.org/61eov0wod/20160413_210836.jpg > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2016, devin davison > wrote: > > > The size of two pc towers. I am trying to figure out how to log in. I > > tried the account qsecofr with pass qsecofr with no luck. I might > actually > > have a licenced os on this thing, it is very different from anything i > have > > worked with before. Not sure really where to go from here. > > > > The drives are scsi, are they in a standard filesystem format i could > read > > in a seperate machine? > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2016, Pontus Pihlgren > wrote: > > > >> Nice! I have a 170 (not up and running, no OS). Which variant do you > >> have. Is it > >> about the size of a PC tower or or two PC towers next to each other? > >> > >> /P > >> > >> On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 08:09:02PM -0400, devin davison wrote: > >> > Alright. Picked up the machine today. Much smaller than expected, but > >> > everything needed seems to be included. I got a terminal as well as a > >> box > >> > of cables. I managed to boot the machine up to the login screen. > >> However I > >> > do not know the username or password. I was speaking with someone on > the > >> > phone that was quite knowlegable, they said that after 3 attempts to > >> login > >> > it becomes a potato. What do i do from here. I am going to try and > >> contact > >> > the original owners, however i believe they are unwilling to help. Im > >> quite > >> > amazed the main drive was not wiped. Anyhow, if i can not get the > >> password > >> > from the original owners, there does appear to be a working install on > >> the > >> > drives, how would I go about resetting the password to gain access to > >> the > >> > machine? The machine is a ibm as/400e 170. > >> > > >> > pictures to follow once I find my camera. > >> > > >> > --Devin > >> > > >> > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Mazzini Alessandro > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > You had it easy. > >> > > > >> > > Once upon a time, a place I was working for decided to get a new > >> > > development > >> > > as/400. The toy was 2x the 270 you mentioned (hd cage taking one > >> side)... > >> > > and the shipping original ibm box upped the weight to dunno... king > >> kong. > >> > > It didn't fit in the elevator, and anyway exceeded the max weight. > >> > > > >> > > The office was 2 floors up.... > >> > > > >> > > We pushed it up, I still have the nightmares > >> > > > >> > > -----Messaggio originale----- > >> > > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di > Kevin > >> > > Monceaux > >> > > Inviato: mercoled? 13 aprile 2016 21:09 > >> > > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > > Oggetto: Re: Getting an ibm as/400 > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 01:26:29AM -0400, Ian Primus wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Jason T > >> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > > In IBM-speak, it's a "Midrange." > >> > > > > >> > > > Which is a fancy word for "unusually heavy for its size". > >> > > > >> > > That's the truth. In a previous reply I mentioned I have a "small" > >> > > 9406-270 > >> > > in my living room. I found it listed on eBay. It was in New York. > >> I'm in > >> > > Central Texas. It was listed with a flat $50 shipping fee. From > the > >> > > photos > >> > > and shipping fee I was expecting something small enough to be > shipped > >> by > >> > > UPS > >> > > or FedEx. I made the seller an offer $50 less than the list price > >> which > >> > > they accepted, so I basically got free shipping. It was shipped by > >> UPS > >> > > - UPS Freight. There was no way UPS Fright could get down my > >> driveway so I > >> > > had to pick it up at their terminal. Fortunately it was shipped on > a > >> tiny > >> > > pallet that just fit in the back of my mini-van. It looks like an > >> > > oversized > >> > > tower PC, but is definitely unusually heavy for its size. I have to > >> use a > >> > > dolly to move it around. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > -- > >> > > > >> > > Kevin > >> > > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > >> > > http://www.Lassie.xyz > >> > > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > >> > > Bruceville, TX > >> > > > >> > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > >> > > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Apr 14 15:44:09 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:44:09 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy UK show In-Reply-To: <20160414153308.849832073EEA@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <570F978F.2040200@btinternet.com> <066e01d19656$656692f0$3033b8d0$@gmail.com> <570FA49E.9070902@btinternet.com> <20160414153308.849832073EEA@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: The tentative plan is to run the next one in October. The date should be firmed up in the next month or so. Typically I run the event once every 18 months or so. Regards, Mark. On 14 April 2016 at 15:50, Rob Jarratt wrote: > It is a very informal event, organised by Mark in his own time. He has > family and work commitments like all of us, so I expect he has not been > able to find the time. > > Regards > > Rob > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Rod Smallwood > Sent: 14 April 2016 15:09 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC Legacy UK show > > So why did it say See you in 2016? > > > On 14/04/2016 15:03, Dave Wade wrote: > > I thought Mark was only aiming for every two years. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > >> Smallwood > >> Sent: 14 April 2016 14:14 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > >> Subject: DEC Legacy UK show > >> > >> DEC Legacy UK show > >> > >> Where did it go ? > >> 2015 then nothing > >> > >> Rod Smallwood > >> > > > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 14 17:44:17 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 23:44:17 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy UK show In-Reply-To: References: <570F978F.2040200@btinternet.com> <066e01d19656$656692f0$3033b8d0$@gmail.com> <570FA49E.9070902@btinternet.com> <20160414153308.849832073EEA@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <57101D41.3040702@btinternet.com> Well Hello!! Its the man himself. I had all kinds of visions of floods and other disasters. Tentative or not its a start. Where do I register as an exhibitor ? Rod On 14/04/2016 21:44, Mark Wickens wrote: > The tentative plan is to run the next one in October. The date should be > firmed up in the next month or so. > Typically I run the event once every 18 months or so. > > Regards, Mark. > > On 14 April 2016 at 15:50, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> It is a very informal event, organised by Mark in his own time. He has >> family and work commitments like all of us, so I expect he has not been >> able to find the time. >> >> Regards >> >> Rob >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> From: Rod Smallwood >> Sent: 14 April 2016 15:09 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: DEC Legacy UK show >> >> So why did it say See you in 2016? >> >> >> On 14/04/2016 15:03, Dave Wade wrote: >>> I thought Mark was only aiming for every two years. >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >>>> Smallwood >>>> Sent: 14 April 2016 14:14 >>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >>>> Subject: DEC Legacy UK show >>>> >>>> DEC Legacy UK show >>>> >>>> Where did it go ? >>>> 2015 then nothing >>>> >>>> Rod Smallwood >>>> >> >> From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Apr 14 21:43:47 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:43:47 -0700 Subject: Adapters for original SCSI drives to newer drives Message-ID: What is a recommended adapter for replacing orig 50 pin SCSI disks with some of the newer surplus SCSI drives ? Here's what I have, I've got a HP 9000/382 without its disk drive, it was pulled to solve the (preconceived) notion of leaking sensitive software. Sadly not only the drive but the carrier. BTW like to see what one of the original carriers looks like Ideas ? From tor at spacetec.no Thu Apr 14 21:44:43 2016 From: tor at spacetec.no (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 04:44:43 +0200 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 14 April 2016 at 16:04, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > I have no idea what you are talking about. > I have no user name no password or anything else to search with. > Please repeat your message in understandable English > > Rod Smallwood > Sorry. I simply assumed everyone would be familiar with the site: search format of e.g. google. As I didn't want to insert a direct link to your (or apparently yours) user page on a public forum I opted for how to find it instead. The search engines support a 'site:' keyword to limit searches to e.g. a single website. So, entering: site:www.vcfed.org/forum/ "Rod Smallwood" into the search field of google.com or most other search engines will search for your name not all over the net, but only on those pages limited by the 'site:' option. That'll lead you to the user page (and also some posts mentioning your name). But I see that others have posted the direct link anyway. As for your login problems, Erik or Evan K. (owner of the new home of the forum) should be able to help you out. CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail and any attachment contain KONGSBERG information which may be proprietary, confidential or subject to export regulations, and is only meant for the intended recipient(s). Any disclosure, copying, distribution or use is prohibited, if not otherwise explicitly agreed with KONGSBERG. If received in error, please delete it immediately from your system and notify the sender properly. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Apr 15 06:21:42 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 07:21:42 -0400 Subject: CYCLOPS: Here it is, but come see it in person at VCF East In-Reply-To: <94374C17-79C5-461B-B321-74DFB2B06407@cs.ubc.ca> References: <215201d196b7$52546820$f6fd3860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <216d01d196c1$812f72c0$838e5840$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <94374C17-79C5-461B-B321-74DFB2B06407@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <21d101d19708$fd18d290$f74a77b0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > I had assumed that you came across a hobbyist unit > built in the 70's and was repairing or completing it. > Sounds like that's incorrect - this is a new build > from scratch? Yes, for certain definitions of "new" (more below). > including the printed circuit boards? Yes, I used "toner transfer" to make the board. The board is made from the original art in the article. Back to "new"... The copper clad board that was used is from a piece I bought in 1977 to make a memory addition for my OSI C1P. The IC sockets were recovered from an old board where all of the ICs had 1974 date codes. The chips used have date codes ranging from 1969 to 1976, The Sprague Atom cap (the orange one) is not only the same type as the one in the article pictures, it has the same data and batch code "USA7413H". The other two electrolytic caps are the right make and physical size (Mallory TT) but unfortunately had to be "restuffed". The ceramic caps and the resistors are all from parts assortments I've had since at least 1979 (except for three 0.1 pf caps). The lens is the same type, 8.5mm Elgeet Magnaview. The chassis is a bit of a "hack". It was originally a used TenTec JW-8. I could not find a new or even used JW-6. The only difference between the two is 2 inches of width. I trimmed the lid and had a new bottom made. Etc, etc... This project has been more scavenger hunt than technical I guess. I wanted to make it as "right" as possible. > I had actually wondered from years ago whether the > design ever did work reliably, or whether it might > be the sort of magazine project where 1 in 100 might > function, e.g. say, the memory chips were an iffy > proposition as image sensor. It worked pretty much as soon as I powered it on. The only problem I had was a "duh" moment. The CYCLOPS outputs 0 volts for pixel off and -12 volts for pixel on. The Z input on my scope wants 2 volts for intensity off and 0 volts for intensity normal. After finally RTFMing and a helpful email from Dr. Walker (the designer) an external power supply and a couple of resistors solved that problem. Bill S. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 15 07:16:25 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:16:25 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5710DB99.2050404@btinternet.com> Hello Tor Lets see if I can go back to when I used to teach computers 101 and make it simple. 1. I never registered before. No not ever!!! 2. Somebody tried to use my email address No not me!!! 3. Searching does not work I have no idea what to search for. 3. I can call myself whatever I like and the result is the same. Yes every time !!! 4. I never get a password reset email because there never was a password to reset !! 5. Please go and delete anything related to rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com and let me know when its done. I can start from there. Its just a bulletin board system like the one I ran from 1983 to 1990. Never assume the software is perfect and the user does not know what they are doing. All I wanted to do was to put up some information about the PDP-8 and PDP-11 replacement front panels I produce because somebody asked me to. Making six layer silk screened panels is a whole lot easier than this!! Rod Smallwod On 15/04/2016 03:44, Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 14 April 2016 at 16:04, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> I have no idea what you are talking about. >> I have no user name no password or anything else to search with. >> Please repeat your message in understandable English >> >> Rod Smallwood >> > Sorry. I simply assumed everyone would be familiar with the site: > search format of e.g. google. > As I didn't want to insert a direct link to your (or apparently yours) > user page on a public forum I opted for how to find it instead. > The search engines support a 'site:' keyword to limit searches to e.g. > a single website. > > So, entering: > > site:www.vcfed.org/forum/ "Rod Smallwood" > > into the search field of google.com or most other search engines will > search for your name not all over the net, but only on those pages > limited by the 'site:' option. That'll lead you to the user page (and > also some posts mentioning your name). > > But I see that others have posted the direct link anyway. > > As for your login problems, Erik or Evan K. (owner of the new home of > the forum) should be able to help you out. > > CONFIDENTIALITY > This e-mail and any attachment contain KONGSBERG information which may be > proprietary, confidential or subject to export regulations, and is only meant > for the intended recipient(s). Any disclosure, copying, distribution or use is > prohibited, if not otherwise explicitly agreed with KONGSBERG. If received in > error, please delete it immediately from your system and notify the sender > properly. > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 15 07:21:00 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:21:00 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy UK show In-Reply-To: References: <570F978F.2040200@btinternet.com> <066e01d19656$656692f0$3033b8d0$@gmail.com> <570FA49E.9070902@btinternet.com> <20160414153308.849832073EEA@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5710DCAC.3060101@btinternet.com> OK That looks good I hope it happens. My exhibit will consist of brand new DEC products made in the last six months, Rod Smallwood On 14/04/2016 21:44, Mark Wickens wrote: > The tentative plan is to run the next one in October. The date should be > firmed up in the next month or so. > Typically I run the event once every 18 months or so. > > Regards, Mark. > > On 14 April 2016 at 15:50, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> It is a very informal event, organised by Mark in his own time. He has >> family and work commitments like all of us, so I expect he has not been >> able to find the time. >> >> Regards >> >> Rob >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> From: Rod Smallwood >> Sent: 14 April 2016 15:09 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: DEC Legacy UK show >> >> So why did it say See you in 2016? >> >> >> On 14/04/2016 15:03, Dave Wade wrote: >>> I thought Mark was only aiming for every two years. >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >>>> Smallwood >>>> Sent: 14 April 2016 14:14 >>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >>>> Subject: DEC Legacy UK show >>>> >>>> DEC Legacy UK show >>>> >>>> Where did it go ? >>>> 2015 then nothing >>>> >>>> Rod Smallwood >>>> >> >> From jason at textfiles.com Fri Apr 15 10:58:18 2016 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 11:58:18 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <5710DB99.2050404@btinternet.com> References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> <5710DB99.2050404@btinternet.com> Message-ID: This thread started to flag out, but I am delighted that it has bloomed into a beautiful rose bouquet of classic computing. On Apr 15, 2016 8:16 AM, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > Hello Tor > > Lets see if I can go back to when I used to teach computers 101 and make > it simple. > > 1. I never registered before. No not ever!!! > > 2. Somebody tried to use my email address No not me!!! > > 3. Searching does not work I have no idea what to search for. > > 3. I can call myself whatever I like and the result is the same. Yes > every time !!! > > 4. I never get a password reset email because there never was a password > to reset !! > > 5. Please go and delete anything related to rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com > and > let me know when its done. I can start from there. > Its just a bulletin board system like the one I ran from 1983 to 1990. > Never assume the software is perfect and the user does not know what > they are doing. > All I wanted to do was to put up some information about the PDP-8 and > PDP-11 replacement front panels I > produce because somebody asked me to. Making six layer silk screened > panels is a whole lot easier than this!! > > Rod Smallwod > > On 15/04/2016 03:44, Tor Arntsen wrote: > >> On 14 April 2016 at 16:04, Rod Smallwood >> wrote: >> >> I have no idea what you are talking about. >>> I have no user name no password or anything else to search with. >>> Please repeat your message in understandable English >>> >>> Rod Smallwood >>> >>> Sorry. I simply assumed everyone would be familiar with the site: >> search format of e.g. google. >> As I didn't want to insert a direct link to your (or apparently yours) >> user page on a public forum I opted for how to find it instead. >> The search engines support a 'site:' keyword to limit searches to e.g. >> a single website. >> >> So, entering: >> >> site:www.vcfed.org/forum/ "Rod Smallwood" >> >> into the search field of google.com or most other search engines will >> search for your name not all over the net, but only on those pages >> limited by the 'site:' option. That'll lead you to the user page (and >> also some posts mentioning your name). >> >> But I see that others have posted the direct link anyway. >> >> As for your login problems, Erik or Evan K. (owner of the new home of >> the forum) should be able to help you out. >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY >> This e-mail and any attachment contain KONGSBERG information which may be >> proprietary, confidential or subject to export regulations, and is only >> meant >> for the intended recipient(s). Any disclosure, copying, distribution or >> use is >> prohibited, if not otherwise explicitly agreed with KONGSBERG. If >> received in >> error, please delete it immediately from your system and notify the sender >> properly. >> >> > From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 11:22:41 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 09:22:41 -0700 Subject: Adapters for original SCSI drives to newer drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 15, 2016 4:05 AM, "Pete Lancashire" wrote: > > What is a recommended adapter for replacing orig 50 pin SCSI disks with > some of the newer surplus SCSI drives ? > > Here's what I have, I've got a HP 9000/382 without its disk drive, it was > pulled to solve the (preconceived) notion of leaking sensitive software. > Sadly not only the drive but the carrier. > > BTW like to see what one of the original carriers looks like > My 9000/382 came with an original drive but it was dead. I think I replaced it with a 68-pin drive with a 68-pin male - 50-pin male adapter. I'll have to open it up and check. Fortunately I had the original drive carrier to reuse. It also came with a SCSI floppy drive. Don't think I ever got around to testing that. From johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 15 14:22:32 2016 From: johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk (John Wallace) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 19:22:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Servicing DEC-T11 based products with a Fluke pod? References: <989190826.2091193.1460748152069.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <989190826.2091193.1460748152069.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi John, In the apparent absence of other T11-related suggestions, are you aware that there are a couple of T11-related manuals on Bitsavers, at least one of which has schematics? There's the T11 Users Manual, and the T11 Evaluation Module Users Guide: www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/t11/ Nothing about Fluke pods, but maybe something more than you have at the moment? Best of luck John Wallace From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 15 14:44:05 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:44:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8/A w/RL01, RX01 and VT55 on eBay Message-ID: <20160415194405.A7DA218C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/252356086401 The starting price doesn't seem wholly unreasonable for what's all there. Noel From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 19:04:02 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 17:04:02 -0700 Subject: DEC 338 Vector Graphics Display emulator. Message-ID: My 338 emulator is working to the point where I can push objects around the screen with the 'light pen'. https://youtu.be/lydGoE-JbIg I am looking for software to test the emulation; I thought that the DECUS kaleidoscope program was available, but all I can find is catalog references. There is a ' 338INSTRUCTIONTEST.BIN' out there, but none of the BIN loaders I have tried recognize it. The PDP-8 versions of space war all use a different graphics system, so are not helpful. Anyone have any 338 diagnostic or applications stashed away somewhere? -- Charles From dave at mitton.com Fri Apr 15 19:52:23 2016 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:52:23 -0400 Subject: DECnet TRN Datalink spec, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/7/2016 01:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 18:26:34 +0000 >From: >To: , >Subject: Document treasure trove > > >While looking for DECnet documents, I noticed that there's a very >large collection at >http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/ . Probably not >news to many, but in case some had not seen it... > >Among other things, there are two CD collections MDS-1997-10 and >MDS-2000-01. The former contains a rather obscure document, the >DECnet Phase IV Token Ring datalink spec. That also includes the >Phase IV routing layer tweaks necessary to support token ring -- or >other datalinks if you don't want to use the AA-00-04-00 prefix. > > paul As the primary author of that document, I still have a hard copy (available), and can answer any questions (if the neurons remember) As well as a variety of other DECnet specs and documents. Most of them were on the an HP site for awhile. I don't know what survived the corporate split. Dave. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Apr 16 02:48:30 2016 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 07:48:30 +0000 Subject: Recomended: IBM 100 aniversary video Message-ID: Some great stuff here, and yes it a promotional film but note: Patty McHugh, the Mother, of the motherboard, and the PC segment. Brooks, and the 360 project (I recommend his Mystical Man Month for any project manager) What was missing, how about FORTRAN, and Jim Backus? Randy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrhDaAmn5Uw [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.V20777b6216d0b36c48ba4a68f70eb771&pid=Api] IBM Centennial Film: They Were There - People who changed ... www.youtube.com What does it mean to be an IBMer? Every employee experiences the company in different ways, but the global impact IBM has made on business and society over t... From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 16 07:44:19 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 13:44:19 +0100 Subject: Manual for DEC 433au Message-ID: <015301d197dd$b1f735b0$15e5a110$@ntlworld.com> Anyone got the following document: DIGITAL Personal Workstation System Reference and Maintenance Guide The link on Manx is broken. Thanks Rob From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Apr 16 08:26:13 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 09:26:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Recomended: IBM 100 aniversary video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201604161326.JAA08340@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Brooks, and the 360 project (I recommend his Mystical Man Month for any proj$ It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure the book I read was the _Mythical_ Man-Month. Unless he wrote two? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Apr 16 08:28:37 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 09:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DECnet TRN Datalink spec, etc. In-Reply-To: <20160416070932.1CF1E2073C34@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20160416070932.1CF1E2073C34@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <201604161328.JAA05764@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> While looking for DECnet documents, [...] > As the primary author of that document, I still have a hard copy > (available), and can answer any questions (if the neurons remember) And this sort of thing (original document authors' presence) is a substantial chunk of why I think this list is awesome. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Apr 16 09:15:48 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 10:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Need 85S68 datasheet Message-ID: <20160416141548.5838E18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Does anyone have an 85S68 (16x4 SRAM) datasheet? I've looked online, can't find one. Thanks in advance! Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Apr 16 09:20:48 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 10:20:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Need 85S68 datasheet Message-ID: <20160416142048.7DB6918C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Does anyone have an 85S68 (16x4 SRAM) datasheet? I've looked online, > can't find one. Ooops, never mind; found one under DM85S68N (sigh, clearly not very awake yet...) Noel From lproven at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 10:25:25 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 17:25:25 +0200 Subject: DECnet TRN Datalink spec, etc. In-Reply-To: <201604161328.JAA05764@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20160416070932.1CF1E2073C34@huey.classiccmp.org> <201604161328.JAA05764@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 16 April 2016 at 15:28, Mouse wrote: > And this sort of thing (original document authors' presence) is a > substantial chunk of why I think this list is awesome. I second that emotion. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jrr at flippers.com Sat Apr 16 12:10:31 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 10:10:31 -0700 Subject: Servicing DEC-T11 based products with a Fluke pod? In-Reply-To: <989190826.2091193.1460748152069.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <989190826.2091193.1460748152069.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <989190826.2091193.1460748152069.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <57127207.3020803@flippers.com> On 04/15/2016 12:22 PM, John Wallace wrote: > Hi John, > > In the apparent absence of other T11-related suggestions, are you aware that there are a couple of T11-related manuals on Bitsavers, at least one of which has schematics? > > There's the T11 Users Manual, and the T11 Evaluation Module Users Guide: > www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/t11/ > > Nothing about Fluke pods, but maybe something more than you have at the moment? > > Best of luck > John Wallace > I've been looking at the T11 and I mostly just need to trick a Fluke pod into doing most of the T11 control, Address and Data lines so I can exercise the RAM and ROM attached to it. I will be experimenting with a 8086 POD as is has multiplexed Address and Data lines (0 - 15) as well. Of course there is a T11 adapter for the Arduino CPU test project on Github, I am getting that as the T11 test is written for the Atari System 2... https://github.com/prswan/arduino-mega-ict/tree/t11 John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Apr 16 13:03:27 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 14:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KY11-LB drawing error Message-ID: <20160416180327.5CEBA18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, now that I have the 85S68 datasheet in hand, it turns out there's an error in the KY11-LB drawings. (I just couldn't understand how the circuit could possibly work, until I discovered that!) On the two RAM chips (E11 and E27, used to hold the bus address, keypad data, etc) the "Output Store" and "Output Disable" labels are reversed. (Not the pin numbers, etc - just the labels.) I.e. 'Output Store' is actually pin 13; it is tied high (as shown on the drawings for that pin). I have 'fixed' a copy of that page from the print set, and will (soon) issue an updated PDF. Noel From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 16 13:37:45 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 19:37:45 +0100 Subject: Manual for DEC 433au In-Reply-To: <015301d197dd$b1f735b0$15e5a110$@ntlworld.com> References: <015301d197dd$b1f735b0$15e5a110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <57128679.30307@ntlworld.com> On 16/04/16 13:44, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Anyone got the following document: DIGITAL Personal Workstation System > Reference and Maintenance Guide > > > > The link on Manx is broken. > > > I have ER-D4BWW-SM-A01 which is "DIGITAL Personal Workstation Service Maintenance Manual". Is that the one? (the HP link does indeed seem to be broken for that one.) -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 16 14:48:11 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 20:48:11 +0100 Subject: Manual for DEC 433au In-Reply-To: <57128679.30307@ntlworld.com> References: <015301d197dd$b1f735b0$15e5a110$@ntlworld.com> <57128679.30307@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <016e01d19818$e82c9d10$b885d730$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio > Carlini > Sent: 16 April 2016 19:38 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Manual for DEC 433au > > On 16/04/16 13:44, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Anyone got the following document: DIGITAL Personal Workstation System > > Reference and Maintenance Guide > > > > > > > > The link on Manx is broken. > > > > > > > > > I have ER-D4BWW-SM-A01 which is "DIGITAL Personal Workstation Service > Maintenance Manual". > > Is that the one? (the HP link does indeed seem to be broken for that one.) > > Hello Antonio, I don't think it is but it looks like it would be useful anyway. Regards Rob From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 14:57:41 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 12:57:41 -0700 Subject: Manual for DEC 433au In-Reply-To: References: <015301d197dd$b1f735b0$15e5a110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Apr 16, 2016 5:44 AM, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: > > Anyone got the following document: DIGITAL Personal Workstation System > Reference and Maintenance Guide > > The link on Manx is broken. What page are you looking at on Manx which has the broken link? Do you have the part number for the manual? That title is a rather generic one to use for searching. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Apr 16 07:39:17 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 08:39:17 -0400 Subject: DECnet TRN Datalink spec, etc. In-Reply-To: <20160416014409.EA8F32073C38@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20160416014409.EA8F32073C38@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <19EF4CA4-1D49-4E18-AE59-D512843E0AF6@comcast.net> > On Apr 15, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Dave Mitton wrote: > > On 4/7/2016 01:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 18:26:34 +0000 >> From: >> To: , >> Subject: Document treasure trove >> >> >> While looking for DECnet documents, I noticed that there's a very large collection at http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/ . Probably not news to many, but in case some had not seen it... >> >> Among other things, there are two CD collections MDS-1997-10 and MDS-2000-01. The former contains a rather obscure document, the DECnet Phase IV Token Ring datalink spec. That also includes the Phase IV routing layer tweaks necessary to support token ring -- or other datalinks if you don't want to use the AA-00-04-00 prefix. >> >> paul > > As the primary author of that document, I still have a hard copy (available), and can answer any questions (if the neurons remember) As well as a variety of other DECnet specs and documents. Most of them were on the an HP site for awhile. I don't know what survived the corporate split. Thanks Dave. The parts I studied seem quite clear (as expected). I was thinking I might add IVprime support to DECnet/Python. Maybe that's a bit silly, maybe not. It clearly is valid to do so even if your interface isn't Token Ring, though I suspect it hasn't been done before. paul From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 16 17:24:14 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 23:24:14 +0100 Subject: Manual for DEC 433au In-Reply-To: References: <015301d197dd$b1f735b0$15e5a110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <017c01d1982e$b5092cd0$1f1b8670$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: 16 April 2016 20:58 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Manual for DEC 433au > > On Apr 16, 2016 5:44 AM, "Robert Jarratt" > wrote: > > > > Anyone got the following document: DIGITAL Personal Workstation System > > Reference and Maintenance Guide > > > > The link on Manx is broken. > > What page are you looking at on Manx which has the broken link? Do you > have the part number for the manual? > This is the page: http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,8150 > That title is a rather generic one to use for searching. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 18:07:39 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 16:07:39 -0700 Subject: Manual for DEC 433au In-Reply-To: <017c01d1982e$b5092cd0$1f1b8670$@ntlworld.com> References: <015301d197dd$b1f735b0$15e5a110$@ntlworld.com> <017c01d1982e$b5092cd0$1f1b8670$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > This is the page: http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,8150 > That page refers to this file, which is no longer available there: http://h18000.www1.hp.com/legacysupport/digital/pdf/d4bwwsm.pdf An archived copy of that file is available here: http://web.archive.org/web/20050115182731/http://h18000.www1.hp.com/LEGACYSUPPORT/Digital/pdf/d4bwwsm.pdf Although that manual appears to cover Pentium II workstations and if the 433au is an Alpha workstation that manual is probably not the one you actually want. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 16 18:13:42 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 00:13:42 +0100 Subject: Manual for DEC 433au In-Reply-To: References: <015301d197dd$b1f735b0$15e5a110$@ntlworld.com> <017c01d1982e$b5092cd0$1f1b8670$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <018901d19835$9e798df0$db6ca9d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: 17 April 2016 00:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Manual for DEC 433au > > On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > > > This is the page: http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,8150 > > > > That page refers to this file, which is no longer available there: > http://h18000.www1.hp.com/legacysupport/digital/pdf/d4bwwsm.pdf > > An archived copy of that file is available here: > http://web.archive.org/web/20050115182731/http://h18000.www1.hp.com/ > LEGACYSUPPORT/Digital/pdf/d4bwwsm.pdf > > Although that manual appears to cover Pentium II workstations and if the > 433au is an Alpha workstation that manual is probably not the one you > actually want. Thanks Glen. When browsing Manx that was just the title closest to what I thought I needed, because it wasn't an exact match and an exact match was not available. It would be good to check all the HP links on Manx and probably make copies for posterity before they disappear. I suspect that is a lot of work though... Regards Rob From ian.finder at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 18:23:54 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 16:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In search of VAX 750 front door and CPU spares. Message-ID: Please let me know if you know of any. Picked up a 750 today, and will be making a trip to Calgary in a few months for another... Sent from Outlook for iPhone From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 16 18:37:53 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 00:37:53 +0100 Subject: Manual for DEC 433au In-Reply-To: <018901d19835$9e798df0$db6ca9d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <015301d197dd$b1f735b0$15e5a110$@ntlworld.com> <017c01d1982e$b5092cd0$1f1b8670$@ntlworld.com> <018901d19835$9e798df0$db6ca9d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5712CCD1.1040504@ntlworld.com> On 17/04/16 00:13, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Thanks Glen. When browsing Manx that was just the title closest to what I thought I needed, because it wasn't an exact match and an exact match was not available. > > It would be good to check all the HP links on Manx and probably make copies for posterity before they disappear. I suspect that is a lot of work though... The original database dump was available online fora while. That dates from ~2010 and has ~235 entries with URLs of the form: some-prefix.hp.com/legacysupport/ I checked a handful and none are there. Perhaps they've moved to a different URL but a cursory search provided nothing. archive.org has at least some of those docs (e.g. https://web.archive.org/web/20050115202903/http://h18000.www1.hp.com/LEGACYSUPPORT/Digital/pdf/xl6.pdf) so all is not lost. Additionally, manx often listed md5 checksums, which suggests that the docs have been downloaded and (hopefully) saved somewhere. Given a mysql database dump, it would be straightfoward enough to check which docs still exist and which don't. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From Mark at Misty.com Sat Apr 16 19:27:25 2016 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 20:27:25 -0400 Subject: wanted - M8650/M8655 async card Message-ID: <20160417002725.GA29475@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, After meeting up with Kyle Owen at VCF-East today, and booting OS8 via OS/8 Disk Server on his system, I have renewed interest in getting my pdp-8/e more functional. Does anyone have an extra M8650 (KL8E) or M8655 (KL8JA) asynchronous interface card they would be interested in selling or bartering? Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 20:07:53 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 18:07:53 -0700 Subject: Manual for DEC 433au In-Reply-To: <015301d197dd$b1f735b0$15e5a110$@ntlworld.com> References: <015301d197dd$b1f735b0$15e5a110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 5:44 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Anyone got the following document: DIGITAL Personal Workstation System > Reference and Maintenance Guide > Only thing I managed to find so far: http://www.cilinder.be/docs/digitalpwsau/miatasg.zip Download and unzip that, then start at: miatasg\dpws_aau\Service\Aaudpwssg.htm DIGITAL Personal Workstation System Reference and Maintenance Guide a/au-Series It's a collection of html pages, not a single pdf manual, and not super friendly, but better than nothing. From useddec at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 20:08:37 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 20:08:37 -0500 Subject: wanted - M8650/M8655 async card In-Reply-To: <20160417002725.GA29475@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20160417002725.GA29475@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: Hi Mark, Feel free to contact me off list. Thanks, Paul On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 7:27 PM, Mark G Thomas wrote: > Hi, > > After meeting up with Kyle Owen at VCF-East today, and booting OS8 via > OS/8 Disk Server on his system, I have renewed interest in getting my > pdp-8/e more functional. > > Does anyone have an extra M8650 (KL8E) or M8655 (KL8JA) asynchronous > interface card they would be interested in selling or bartering? > > Mark > > -- > Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE > From useddec at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 20:11:10 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 20:11:10 -0500 Subject: In search of VAX 750 front door and CPU spares. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ian, Feel free to send me a list off list. Thanks, Paul On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Please let me know if you know of any. Picked up a 750 today, and will be > making a trip to Calgary in a few months for another... > > Sent from Outlook for iPhone > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 22:30:23 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 23:30:23 -0400 Subject: wanted - M8650/M8655 async card In-Reply-To: References: <20160417002725.GA29475@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: I have a spare too. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Apr 16, 2016 9:08 PM, "Paul Anderson" wrote: > Hi Mark, > > Feel free to contact me off list. > > Thanks, Paul > > On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 7:27 PM, Mark G Thomas wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > After meeting up with Kyle Owen at VCF-East today, and booting OS8 via > > OS/8 Disk Server on his system, I have renewed interest in getting my > > pdp-8/e more functional. > > > > Does anyone have an extra M8650 (KL8E) or M8655 (KL8JA) asynchronous > > interface card they would be interested in selling or bartering? > > > > Mark > > > > -- > > Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 22:39:29 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 20:39:29 -0700 Subject: Any info on MTI 240 drive emulator? Message-ID: <57130571.2060601@gmail.com> Hi all -- I just picked up an interesting device, it appears to be a drive emulator that adapts DEC SDI to either ESDI or MFM drives (I would guess ESDI, but no real way to be sure.) It's manufactured by "Micro Technology" and is labeled as an "MDI 240" on the front. (On the rear as "SPEC.MDI-240", P/N "970176-000".) Mine has no drives in it, just a power supply and two logic boards labeled "MSD13B" that connect to the drives. I can't find much information about this unit at all, and just a bit about Micro Technology (apparently they were sued by DEC for building this device :)). I'd like to be able to use this thing (possibly with my VAX 11/750). Anyone have any information hiding somewhere about it? Thanks, Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 23:22:26 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 21:22:26 -0700 Subject: Have VAX 82x0/83x0 console floppies been archived? Message-ID: <57130F82.2050700@gmail.com> I also picked up a VAX 8350 today (it was a productive afternoon). It came with a box of maybe 40 RX50 floppies for console and various diagnostics. A cursory Internet search didn't reveal whether these have been archived already. If they haven't already been archived somewhere, I'll take care of archiving them later this week... Thanks, Josh From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 17 02:01:47 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 08:01:47 +0100 Subject: Manual for DEC 433au In-Reply-To: References: <015301d197dd$b1f735b0$15e5a110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <018e01d19877$023e9100$06bbb300$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: 17 April 2016 02:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Manual for DEC 433au > > On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 5:44 AM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > Anyone got the following document: DIGITAL Personal Workstation System > > Reference and Maintenance Guide > > > > Only thing I managed to find so far: > http://www.cilinder.be/docs/digitalpwsau/miatasg.zip > > Download and unzip that, then start at: > miatasg\dpws_aau\Service\Aaudpwssg.htm > > DIGITAL Personal Workstation System Reference and Maintenance Guide > a/au-Series > > It's a collection of html pages, not a single pdf manual, and not super friendly, > but better than nothing. I did find that page (but not the zip actually), and it helped me, but you are right it isn't very friendly, a PDF would be so much better. I'll get the zip. Thanks Rob From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Apr 17 02:29:39 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 09:29:39 +0200 Subject: In search of VAX 750 front door and CPU spares. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Ian Finder Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2016 1:23 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: In search of VAX 750 front door and CPU spares. Please let me know if you know of any. Picked up a 750 today, and will be making a trip to Calgary in a few months for another... --------- I also have a not complete VAX-11/750. I am looking for the rear cover. Given its size, probably expensive to ship even within the EU, but if somebody has that rear cover, I'd love to hear! My VAX-11/750 *was* working ... I powered it up regularly, but as the temperature in my "Hall of Famous Iron" is just 10 degrees Celsius, I figured that grease of bearings in the disk drives are not that viscous. So I am waiting for warmer times. Anyway, a fortnight ago, I had read in the installation manual that a certain revision level is required for the FP option (slot 1). I have that FP board, but I never installed it, because it is a "little oven", so much heat is generated by this board. The manual also said how to see the revision level, so I turned on the VAX and entered the command (E/I 3E, IIRC). My vax is of a higher revision level so that was good. But I smelled something "funny" ... Looking at the back side I saw dense smoke coming out of the power controller! Quickly switched of the machine, and returned to the back. The smoke came out the opening where the mains cable goes in. The smell gave me the impression it was like slow-burning cigarette paper, not the typical smell of a over-heated resistor. I have good hopes that the H74** PSUs are fine, and that capacitors in the mains filter died. But that remains to be seen. A quick look how to remove the power controller was not obvious, so I have to grab the documentation. Need it anyway. The accompanying RA81 (with on it the VAX diagnostics) did not start up correctly, but that was a simple head lock issue ... After some years I even had forgotten how to open the RA81! But that RA81 now starts up fine and lights the READY indicator. I updated the RA81 web page a bit. Two steps forward, one step back ... - Henk From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 20:10:59 2016 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 19:10:59 -0600 Subject: In search of VAX 750 front door and CPU spares. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ian, I think I have the CPU spares for the 750 I have :-) Which ones in particular are you looking for? --barrym On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Please let me know if you know of any. Picked up a 750 today, and will be > making a trip to Calgary in a few months for another... > > Sent from Outlook for iPhone > > From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Sun Apr 17 02:40:47 2016 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (fritz chwolka) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 09:40:47 +0200 Subject: Needed - servicemanual for NCR PC4i Message-ID: <57133DFF.1040104@t-online.de> Hello, I got 2 x NCR PC4i computers. One is running fine at the moment but the harddisk has some problems. The 2nd one had a dead CPU and Bios rom. I replace both but got no beep and nothing on the screen. The PC4i has a 'rack case' for the motherboard. Changing the case shows the same problem. There maybe a problem with the power supply. Does anyone have a service manual or other manuals for the NCR PC4i ? Here is what I have: http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/ncr/PC4i/index.html -- Thanks - greetings Mit freundlichen Gr??en Fritz Chwolka From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Apr 17 03:36:14 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 10:36:14 +0200 Subject: Have VAX 82x0/83x0 console floppies been archived? In-Reply-To: <57130F82.2050700@gmail.com> References: <57130F82.2050700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160417083614.GA28778@Update.UU.SE> Oh, that would be great to have. I have a 8354 (the last 4 is processor count I think). Mine is in an unknown state. I have some floppies, but not 40. /P On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 09:22:26PM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: > I also picked up a VAX 8350 today (it was a productive afternoon). It came > with a box of maybe 40 RX50 floppies for console and various diagnostics. A > cursory Internet search didn't reveal whether these have been archived > already. > > If they haven't already been archived somewhere, I'll take care of archiving > them later this week... > > Thanks, > Josh From ian.finder at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 12:16:58 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 10:16:58 -0700 Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL Message-ID: Does not require three phase. Complete system, includes sirius video and other fun stuff. RealityEngine2 Needs to be gone in a week or two- had made other arrangements but they have fallen through. Call Ian - two two four 659 four two zero 4 -- Ian Finder ian.finder at gmail.com From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Sun Apr 17 17:46:01 2016 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 15:46:01 -0700 Subject: Need IBM 3290 Message-ID: Hi, I'm willing to spend a bit on an IBM 3290 at this point. If you have one, and want to discuss "a bit", please contact me. Regards, Kevin From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Apr 17 17:54:49 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 18:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) Message-ID: <20160417225449.1D39E18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: drlegendre > There are so many types, sources & grades of lubricating oil out there, > it boggles the best of minds. Speaking of lubricating oils... I've recently been cleaning/etc some of the ~4" boxer fans that the earlier PDP-11's use in large quantities. Some of the IMC fans (sleeve bearing) in the machine didn't really want to turn; on taking them apart, they were absolutely full of dirt, and when cleaned, spun up nicely. However.. what lubricant should I use on them before putting them back together for the long term? I assume I should use _something_? But the machine's going to be sitting a fair amount, so I don't want something that will dry out and/or gum up. What do people recommend? Would a 20SAE oil, as used on small electric motors, be OK, or is that in danger of turning into gummy stuff if left sitting for too long? Is there e.g. some silione-based stuff which is long-term capable? Thanks in advance for any/all advice! Noel From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 17 18:08:34 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 16:08:34 -0700 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: <20160417225449.1D39E18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160417225449.1D39E18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57141772.5040504@sydex.com> On 04/17/2016 03:54 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > However.. what lubricant should I use on them before putting them > back together for the long term? I assume I should use _something_? > But the machine's going to be sitting a fair amount, so I don't want > something that will dry out and/or gum up. What do people recommend? > Would a 20SAE oil, as used on small electric motors, be OK, or is > that in danger of turning into gummy stuff if left sitting for too > long? Is there e.g. some silione-based stuff which is long-term > capable? I use white lithium grease for that. It may not be the proper stuff, but it's worked for years for me. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 19:22:31 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 19:22:31 -0500 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: <20160417225449.1D39E18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160417225449.1D39E18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: If they use sleeve bearings, take a close look at the material.. does it have the sintered look of oil-impregnated bronze (Oilite)? Are there channels in the bearing to allow the distribution or retention of grease? Those fans tend to run at pretty low RPM, so a very light bodied grease, like the Phil's Grease for bicycles, would be fine to use. Otherwise, you can just punt and use 20-30W motor oil. And yes, if you have a high-end synthetic like Royal Purple 10-40 that is great. The RP oil is the go-to for the guys on the antique fan site I visited when repairing my 1930s Emerson Junior table fan. The RP is really pricey, like $10/qt but a single quart will last several guys a lifetime of small lubing tasks. On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 5:54 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: drlegendre > > > There are so many types, sources & grades of lubricating oil out > there, > > it boggles the best of minds. > > Speaking of lubricating oils... I've recently been cleaning/etc some of > the ~4" boxer fans that the earlier PDP-11's use in large quantities. > Some of the IMC fans (sleeve bearing) in the machine didn't really want to > turn; on taking them apart, they were absolutely full of dirt, and when > cleaned, spun up nicely. > > However.. what lubricant should I use on them before putting them back > together for the long term? I assume I should use _something_? But the > machine's going to be sitting a fair amount, so I don't want something that > will dry out and/or gum up. What do people recommend? Would a 20SAE oil, as > used on small electric motors, be OK, or is that in danger of turning into > gummy stuff if left sitting for too long? Is there e.g. some silione-based > stuff which is long-term capable? > > Thanks in advance for any/all advice! > > Noel > From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 19:28:10 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 19:28:10 -0500 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: <57141772.5040504@sydex.com> References: <20160417225449.1D39E18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57141772.5040504@sydex.com> Message-ID: "I use white lithium grease for that. It may not be the proper stuff, but it's worked for years for me." White lithium isn't by any means ideal, it's too sticky. It's carried by a solvent so it runs freely and can be sprayed, but once the solvent kicks off, some of it's almost like paint. But when the shafts are so tiny, run at low RPMs - hence very low surface speeds - it more than likely works out ok, just as you have found. As in most cases, just about any form of lubrication is always better than running dry. The most important thing is to keep the bearings free of dirt, swarf and other contaminants. On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/17/2016 03:54 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > However.. what lubricant should I use on them before putting them > > back together for the long term? I assume I should use _something_? > > But the machine's going to be sitting a fair amount, so I don't want > > something that will dry out and/or gum up. What do people recommend? > > Would a 20SAE oil, as used on small electric motors, be OK, or is > > that in danger of turning into gummy stuff if left sitting for too > > long? Is there e.g. some silione-based stuff which is long-term > > capable? > > I use white lithium grease for that. It may not be the proper stuff, > but it's worked for years for me. > > --Chuck > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Apr 17 20:43:27 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 21:43:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) Message-ID: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: drlegendre > If they use sleeve bearings, take a close look at the material.. does > it have the sintered look of oil-impregnated bronze (Oilite)? It looks like copper, actually; it's quite reddish. (The central pin seems to be steel of some sort.) But I'm not familiar with Oilite, so I can't say for sure. > Are there channels in the bearing to allow the distribution or > retention of grease? There's a section of reduced diameter in the center of the pin; the ends are full diameter, with no grooves of any kind. The sleeve is a plain cylinder. > Those fans tend to run at pretty low RPM Not these. They are doing very high RPM indeed. Noel From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 20:52:53 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 20:52:53 -0500 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Ok, so there's an annular groove cut mid-way along the length of the shaft. That might well be for retention of lubricant. You'll have to forgive my assumptions about low RPM operation - I took these to be the typical 'Muffin' type fans, that run about 600 RPM. This is a long-shot, but does the groove in the shaft communicate with a passage in the bearing, by any chance? Just wondering if there's a wicking type oiling system in the design, as seen in larger electric motors. If there's no passage for lube, then I'd stick with the suggestion to use a light-bodied grease like Phil's and make sure to pack the groove full of it. But again, there's no harm in using a medium-body motor oil, like 30W or 10W-40. It's not as if it's going to be in 24/7/365 service, eh? What's the diameter of the shaft, btw? 1/4" or less? Got any pics of the parts? On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 8:43 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: drlegendre > > > If they use sleeve bearings, take a close look at the material.. does > > it have the sintered look of oil-impregnated bronze (Oilite)? > > It looks like copper, actually; it's quite reddish. (The central pin seems > to > be steel of some sort.) But I'm not familiar with Oilite, so I can't say > for > sure. > > > Are there channels in the bearing to allow the distribution or > > retention of grease? > > There's a section of reduced diameter in the center of the pin; the ends > are > full diameter, with no grooves of any kind. The sleeve is a plain cylinder. > > > Those fans tend to run at pretty low RPM > > Not these. They are doing very high RPM indeed. > > Noel > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 17 21:15:59 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 19:15:59 -0700 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: References: <20160417225449.1D39E18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57141772.5040504@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5714435F.9050307@sydex.com> On 04/17/2016 05:28 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > White lithium isn't by any means ideal, it's too sticky. It's carried by a > solvent so it runs freely and can be sprayed, but once the solvent kicks > off, some of it's almost like paint. Depends on the formulation, I guess. The white lithium grease that I use appears to be carried in a light oil--eventually, you can see that the oil separates from the white lithium. So perhaps not so bad. Any tribologists on the list? --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Apr 17 21:28:12 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 22:28:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) Message-ID: <20160418022812.3F51018C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: drlegendre > Ok, so there's an annular groove cut mid-way along the length of the > shaft. That might well be for retention of lubricant. Yeah, that was my guess too. > I took these to be the typical 'Muffin' type fans, that run about 600 > RPM. For comparison, one of my desktops has a thing that reports the fan speeds in that machine; it says the case fan there is doing 1.5K RPM, and the CPU fan 5K. Going by that, since these are going considerably faster than that case fan, I'm going to say these are doing roughly 3K-4K or so. Since they are 120VAC fans, i.e. 60Hz AC input, if I had remembered enough EE, I should have been able to work out the speed from the number of poles on the rotor, etc, but alas that's beyond me. > This is a long-shot, but does the groove in the shaft communicate with > a passage in the bearing Nope, the cylindrical (outer part of the) bearing is a plain cylinder. But looking at it closely, it's probably not copper, so it might be that Oilite stuff. > What's the diameter of the shaft, btw? 1/4" or less? Pretty much about 1/4". > I'd stick with the suggestion to use a light-bodied grease like Phil's I'm just worried a bit about a grease, given the high speed. For comparison, a car wheel is about 2' in diameter, or about 6' in circumference, so at 60 MPH, which is 5280 FPM, it's going to be doing about 880 RPM, somewhat slower. Hence my thinking a fluid lubricant might be the way to go, although of course fluids can migrate. > But again, there's no harm in using a medium-body motor oil, like 30W > or 10W-40. It's not as if it's going to be in 24/7/365 service, eh? No, it's not, which is exactly the problem, though - I want something that won't coagulate if left to sit for a long period. Actually, now that I think of it, my son is a Mech E - I should ask _him_! :-) They probably know about all this stuff! Noel From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 17 21:50:30 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 19:50:30 -0700 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: <20160418022812.3F51018C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160418022812.3F51018C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57144B76.8080404@sydex.com> On 04/17/2016 07:28 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > No, it's not, which is exactly the problem, though - I want something > that won't coagulate if left to sit for a long period. Google "electric motor grease". You'll get lots of words. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Apr 17 22:11:09 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 20:11:09 -0700 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: <20160418022812.3F51018C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160418022812.3F51018C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2016-Apr-17, at 7:28 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Nope, the cylindrical (outer part of the) bearing is a plain cylinder. But > looking at it closely, it's probably not copper, so it might be that Oilite > stuff. Online images do give a fair idea of the appearance of the surface texture and colour of oilite / porous bronze bearings. It can generally be readily distinguished from 'pure solid' metal. e.g.: http://www.google.ca/search?q=oilite&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjvbLXkZfMAhULxmMKHUQVDvwQ_AUIBQ I've removed such bearing fittings often enough from equipment for random stock but don't recall whether or not I've seen them in box/muffin fans. I'd guess that grease may be a poor idea for oilite at least inasmuch as once there is grease in the pores the material will probably never again function the way it was supposed to with oil. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 01:21:22 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 00:21:22 -0600 Subject: Atari 800 finally tested, using home theater projector Message-ID: Perhaps five years ago, a friend gave me some Atari 8-bit gear, including an 800, 800XL, 1020 plotter, 1027 letter-quality printer (which is undoubtedly no good now), and a 1050 floppy drive, but no software. The stuff has been in storage in my mother's basement until recently. I just kludged up a composite video cable for it, and tested it on a home theater projector. Without software, I can only test it with the built-in "Memo Pad", but it seems to work: https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/25892477424/ Now I'll look for BASIC and Star Raiders cartridges. It should be fun playing Star Raiders on the big screen. That was the first game I ever played on an Atari 800, back in 1979. From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 02:47:05 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 00:47:05 -0700 Subject: ISO: Fujitsu M228x power supply Message-ID: <571490F9.90207@gmail.com> Another weekend acquisition is a Fujitsu M2284 SMD drive (14" platters under a transparent cover, what's not to love?). It's in good shape and was properly locked down for shipping so there's a good chance it'll still work with some coaxing. I'm missing the power supply, however. I believe this is the Fujitsu Denso B14L-0300-0018A. Anyone have one going spare, in any condition? Thanks, Josh From radiotest at juno.com Mon Apr 18 05:02:21 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 06:02:21 -0400 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: References: <20160417225449.1D39E18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160418060011.03f7d3f8@juno.com> At 08:22 PM 4/17/2016, drlegendre wrote: >... does it have the sintered look of oil-impregnated bronze (Oilite)? If the bearing is bronze do not use ordinary motor oil, as its sulphur content may attack the bronze. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de Mon Apr 18 06:18:28 2016 From: Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de (Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 13:18:28 +0200 Subject: HP 9845B Power Supply Unit Message-ID: <003201d19964$08988e50$19c9aaf0$@MH-AeroTools.de> Hi, a recently acquired HP 9845B desktop computer came with a literally broken power supply unit. One of the ferrite core transformers has a broken core. The lower, U-shaped core part is broken in the middle into two parts. Both parts are still there, rattling around in the coil part / transformer fixture. I do not think that I could find a new matching core. I am not sure of the magneto-electrical requirements and would like to hear about your experience or opinions: - should I glue the broken ferrite core with e.g. super-glue or epoxy (of course with ideally zero or minimum gap between the halves) ? - would it work or are there better ways to fix broken ferrite cores (e.g. adding a steel wire insert or something like that?) Thanks, Martin Hepperle From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 18 06:26:47 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 11:26:47 +0000 Subject: HP 9845B Power Supply Unit In-Reply-To: <003201d19964$08988e50$19c9aaf0$@MH-AeroTools.de> References: <003201d19964$08988e50$19c9aaf0$@MH-AeroTools.de> Message-ID: > Hi, > > a recently acquired HP 9845B desktop computer came with a literally broken > power supply unit. The HP9845B PSU is very complicated, IIRC it's actually 2 SMPUs and has various switching regulators on some of the outputs too. It is also painful to test as you can't get to it when it is plugged into the machine. > One of the ferrite core transformers has a broken core. The lower, U-shaped > core part is broken in the middle into two parts. Both parts are still > there, rattling around in the coil part / transformer fixture. I do not > think that I could find a new matching core. My guess is that this is one of the main chopper transformers. They are going to be somewhat critical I think. > I am not sure of the magneto-electrical requirements and would like to hear > about your experience or opinions: > - should I glue the broken ferrite core with e.g. super-glue or epoxy (of > course with ideally zero or minimum gap between the halves) ? If it is a clean break then this is probably the best solution as it will have the least effect on the magnetic properties of the core. I think a 'thin' adhesive of the iso-cyano acryllic hydro-copolymerising type (aka 'superglue') would be better than an epoxy resin here. > - would it work or are there better ways to fix broken ferrite cores (e.g. > adding a steel wire insert or something like that?) I would not try to add any other metals, which will have an effect on the magentic properties of the core, may increase losses, and nasty things like that. -tony From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Apr 18 07:52:17 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 05:52:17 -0700 Subject: Atari 800 finally tested, using home theater projector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The 1027's problem is the type 'pallets' fail by falling off. I have not seen one taken apart and it was a long time ago I was offered one. It would be interesting to see if one could rebuild them. BTW the Teletype 40's have a similar issue, the type belt disintegrates. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFqEgpSXnNo one that has not yet come apart, sadly needs a new ribbon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuwLbpr6yLo The plotter is pretty cool considering what a commercial one cost. On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 11:21 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Perhaps five years ago, a friend gave me some Atari 8-bit gear, > including an 800, 800XL, 1020 plotter, 1027 letter-quality printer > (which is undoubtedly no good now), and a 1050 floppy drive, but no > software. The stuff has been in storage in my mother's basement until > recently. I just kludged up a composite video cable for it, and tested > it on a home theater projector. Without software, I can only test it > with the built-in "Memo Pad", but it seems to work: > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/25892477424/ > > Now I'll look for BASIC and Star Raiders cartridges. It should be fun > playing Star Raiders on the big screen. That was the first game I ever > played on an Atari 800, back in 1979. > > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Apr 18 10:40:02 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 10:40:02 -0500 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5714FFD2.4090005@pico-systems.com> On 04/17/2016 08:43 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: drlegendre > > > If they use sleeve bearings, take a close look at the material.. does > > it have the sintered look of oil-impregnated bronze (Oilite)? > > It looks like copper, actually; it's quite reddish. (The central pin seems to > be steel of some sort.) But I'm not familiar with Oilite, so I can't say for > sure. Yes, that is a sintered bronze bushing, made by compressing powdered bronze in a press. The pores allow oil to flow from the cotton packing around it to the bushing/journal interface. If you open one of these up, make sure to oil the cotton packing to supply oil gradually to the bearing. Jon From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 12:05:48 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 10:05:48 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I think it's great that they have a trademark now on what could easily be a genericized term. My favorite part of the retrocomputing hobby by far is red tape, franchising, and branding. On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Jay West wrote: > No, it was not trademarked. Not until VERY recently, even if so. I'm not > convinced it is.... > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred > Cisin > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 8:08 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Festivals??? > > >> If he comes up with his own name, then there is nothing stopping him > >> from putting it together completely independently. > >> If he wants to use the VCF name, then he should talk tothose > >> currently doing it. > On Thu, 14 Apr 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > > Is it a trademark like Maker Faire where everyone has to pay > > per-attendee royalties to use the name on their event? > > It is a trademark, but I have no idea what the terms are. Evan? did not > apparently have much difficulty negotiating with Sellam to use the > trademark. > > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 12:06:49 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 13:06:49 -0400 Subject: Any info on MTI 240 drive emulator? In-Reply-To: <57130571.2060601@gmail.com> References: <57130571.2060601@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 11:39 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I just picked up an interesting device, it appears to be a drive emulator > that adapts DEC SDI to either ESDI or MFM drives (I would guess ESDI, but no > real way to be sure.) It's manufactured by "Micro Technology" and is > labeled as an "MDI 240" on the front. (On the rear as "SPEC.MDI-240", P/N > "970176-000".) I have a box at home with _a_ SDI->ESDI board and two 600MB ESDI drives. I will see about cracking it open to see what's inside. I would have no docs, though... mine came to me in working order and I just plugged it in. I'm using it with a KDB50 and my VAX8300. No funny business. It just works. -ethan From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 12:07:55 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 10:07:55 -0700 Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you all, and thanks Jay West for this wonderful venue. Less than 24 hours later the machine is spoken for, and I'm very excited about where it is going. Another day, another rescue... :) On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > Does not require three phase. > > Complete system, includes sirius video and other fun stuff. > RealityEngine2 > > Needs to be gone in a week or two- had made other arrangements but they > have fallen through. > > Call Ian - two two four 659 four two zero 4 > > > -- > Ian Finder > ian.finder at gmail.com > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 12:22:21 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 13:22:21 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <570FB4E5.1020007@btinternet.com> References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> <570FAA3F.4000604@btinternet.com> <005a01d1965c$cc17bb40$644731c0$@gmail.com> <570FB4E5.1020007@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <571517CD.8070507@snarc.net> > Tried that again same result no email. It's probably caught in your spam filter. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 12:27:33 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 13:27:33 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57151905.5030702@snarc.net> >> If he wants to use the VCF name, then he should talk tothose currently >> doing it. Correct. > Is it a trademark like Maker Faire where everyone has to pay > per-attendee royalties to use the name on their event? No, if someone wants to have a new Festival in their area then we (Vintage Computer Federation) would run it with local assistance. We get a lot of requests from people who want a festival in their city. The challenge is twofold: finding local people who have the skills/time to help run it, and making sure there's enough local audience to attend. Anybody who wants more information should contact me privately at evan at vcfed.org. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 12:29:19 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 13:29:19 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5715196F.90105@snarc.net> > It is a trademark, but I have no idea what the terms are. Evan? did not > apparently have much difficulty negotiating with Sellam to use the > trademark. Sellam is no longer involved in ownership or management. Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 non-profit. We own VCF East, VCF West, the VC Forum, and all future shows. VCF Southeast, Midwest, and the European shows are independent, per deals Sellam made before he stepped aside. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 12:31:40 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 13:31:40 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> > No, it was not trademarked. Not until VERY recently The legal stuff to do so is underway. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 12:34:54 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 13:34:54 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum In-Reply-To: <570FD016.70105@btinternet.com> References: <570FA362.2020500@btinternet.com> <570FAA3F.4000604@btinternet.com> <005a01d1965c$cc17bb40$644731c0$@gmail.com> <570FB4E5.1020007@btinternet.com> <008f01d1966c$5d4ae9c0$17e0bd40$@gmail.com> <570FD016.70105@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <57151ABE.3030605@snarc.net> Rod: Email me privately (evan at vcfed.org) and I'll fix your VC Forum problem. Was at VCF East for the past several days and wasn't checking cctalk at all. From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 12:47:33 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 10:47:33 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> Message-ID: Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> No, if someone wants to have a new Festival in their area then *we (Vintage Computer Federation) would run it* with local assistance. --- The tone here seems awfully heavy-handed. My personal opinion is that a singular entity running your festival remotely- particularly with local folks doing most of the leg work- is of dubious value. It will almost certainly limit the diversity and creative charm of such events, if not now then in the future. And it's simply more work for organizers to comply with... *So Mike, to summarize-- go ahead and do your own show your own way*-- just don't use Evan's fraternity letters if you do so. Or work with Evan to use the name "Vintage Computer Festival," if you see your event's value as contingent on that banner. I think it's great that you want to start a vintage computing event in Oklahoma, and would gladly toss you a small donation to help see it come to fruition. Cheers, - Ian On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > No, it was not trademarked. Not until VERY recently >> > > The legal stuff to do so is underway. > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 13:10:10 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:10:10 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> Message-ID: <57152302.3060603@snarc.net> >>>> No, if someone wants to have a new Festival in their area then *we > (Vintage Computer Federation) would run it* with local assistance. > > --- > > The tone here seems awfully heavy-handed. YOU added the emphasis. "Vintage Computer Festival" is a brand that will turn 20 years old next year. There is tremendous value for being associated with it. We do all the marketing, write the checks, and so on. If someone wants to find out how much work it is to start a successful event, then I wish them the best of luck. From brain at jbrain.com Mon Apr 18 13:12:36 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 13:12:36 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> Message-ID: <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> On 4/18/2016 12:47 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>>> No, if someone wants to have a new Festival in their area then *we > (Vintage Computer Federation) would run it* with local assistance. > > --- > > The tone here seems awfully heavy-handed. I am assuming Evan's just short on sleep at present, and that the response would be more diplomatic if not for recent events. But, if that is the will and perspective of the foundation board, I can definitely see problems. VCF is a good name, to be sure, but I think you are correct that a show could call itself "Classic Computer Fest" and have similar crowds. Heck, most of the folks know the MW show as the ECCC (which technically stands for Emergency Commodore Commodore Computer) which proves that the name has limited value other than it's a placeholder to mark the date(s) A larger concern for me would be what is implied in the "VCF would 'run' it...". For instance, while I do not begrudge the VCF East config per se, it's tough for a combo exhibitor/vendor, and I know that's not going to change, as per the board's wishes. Still, calling a hobbyist who sells some of his creations a vendor is a dubious distinction, in my opinion, since no one is making much money on these things, it's just a service for fellow enthusiasts. All of the other shows I attend (like the upcoming CocoFEST!) make no distinction. Thus, if VCF running the show means that all future shows have to have a separate vendor area, that would detract from my attendance. I realize I'm just one enthusiast, but I feel it's useful to share at least my opinion. I also think it would be a mistake to make all the shows too "homogenized" in format, if that's a goal in this directive. Some folks attend multiple shows, and the variety I think would be of benefit. Jim From ethan at 757.org Mon Apr 18 13:18:17 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:18:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> Message-ID: > The tone here seems awfully heavy-handed. Naw, it's not a bad thing. Whomever made the first named Vintage Computing Festival handed it off, and if someone wants to maintain control and keep order that isn't a bad thing. In Norfolk I helped run (to the point of signing the contract with the city venue) two Mini-Maker Faires that were pretty decent in size. O'Reilly Publishing owns Maker Faire, Mini Maker Faire, etc. It was good from the perspective of kicking something off that was totally awesome and making things go. There was strict controls over artwork, domain names, web site CMS / theme etc. They just don't want people doing things that would harm the hard work they put into building their brand and their thing. It's tough when you have rando's trying to do things, not everyone uses good judgement. > My personal opinion is that a singular entity running your festival > remotely- particularly with local folks doing most of the leg work- is of > dubious value. It will almost certainly limit the diversity and creative > charm of such events, if not now then in the future. And it's simply more > work for organizers to comply with... This was kind of the case with us and Makerfaire, we did all the work but it looked good. The flip side was using the branding from Make Magazine didn't really help us that much. The #1 source of marketing was Facebook, it blew away our mention in local print media and everything else. One thing that kind of gave an upset stomach was the 2nd year there was a per-attendee license fee that we had to pay to O'Reilly/Make Magazine. This kind of sucked because we were a free event to the public. We had to raise around $7000 in sponsorship money to pay for the venue (which took a ton of work.) The venue along with many others were in a ticketmaster contract so in order to do online paid ticketing using the chosen system (Eventbright) we would of had to buy out the ticket master contract first. So the middle finger to that is go free. Other makerfaires were pulling in a good chunk of money but were in areas with more support than Norfolk VA, and at venues not locked into contracts -- which can be tougher to secure. Events are a pain to run! I also have a 2nd row seat to a 20,000 person gaming music and gaming festival that grew organically. That one is hell :-) The payback is when you run into random people and they talk about how much they liked the event. > *So Mike, to summarize-- go ahead and do your own show your own way*-- just > don't use Evan's fraternity letters if you do so. Or work with Evan to use > the name "Vintage Computer Festival," if you see your event's value as > contingent on that banner. That sounds ok? -- Ethan O'Toole From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Apr 18 13:21:04 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 11:21:04 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> > On Apr 18, 2016, at 11:12 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > > > A larger concern for me would be what is implied in the "VCF would 'run' it...". For instance, while I do not begrudge the VCF East config per se, it's tough for a combo exhibitor/vendor, and I know that's not going to change, as per the board's wishes. Still, calling a hobbyist who sells some of his creations a vendor is a dubious distinction, in my opinion, since no one is making much money on these things, it's just a service for fellow enthusiasts. All of the other shows I attend (like the upcoming CocoFEST!) make no distinction. Thus, if VCF running the show means that all future shows have to have a separate vendor area, that would detract from my attendance. I realize I'm just one enthusiast, but I feel it's useful to share at least my opinion. I understand the desire to having a separate vendor area so as to keep the exhibit area a bit ?neater? and more focused on demos rather than selling/trading. It is a tradeoff and I agree it?s a choice that folks have to make if they want to exhibit or vend (ie without a number of folks it?s hard to ?do both?). > > I also think it would be a mistake to make all the shows too "homogenized" in format, if that's a goal in this directive. Some folks attend multiple shows, and the variety I think would be of benefit. > > Unlike most commercial ?shows? where it?s the same vendors/exhibitors at each, VCF *will* be different because you?ll have different vendors/exhibitors showing up that tend to be from the ?local? geographic area. TTFN - Guy From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 18 13:31:32 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 11:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2016, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I understand the desire to having a separate vendor area so as to keep > the exhibit area a bit ?neater? and more focused on demos rather > than selling/trading. It is a tradeoff and I agree it?s a choice that > folks have to make if they want to exhibit or vend (ie without a number > of folks it?s hard to ?do both?). Howzbout: have the two areas contiguous, with some portions explicitly one or the other, and a middle area that is mixed? That allows for the people who have something to SHOW, AND have a workroom to clear out. For VCF-West, I have a ridiculous amount of crap to dispose of. Far too much to burden a consignment group. Most of it would be very cheap, other than the need to make the expenses (direct and incidental) of the event. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 13:52:08 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:52:08 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> >Still, calling a hobbyist who > sells some of his creations a vendor is a dubious distinction, in my > opinion, since no one is making much money on these things, it's just a > service for fellow enthusiasts. All of the other shows I attend (like > the upcoming CocoFEST!) make no distinction. We have a good reason for doing this. Events that mix sales/exhibits together, without making distinctions from booth to booth, tend to become flea/swap-type events. That's fine for those of us IN the hobby, but these events will only ever shrink, not grow, as the audience/collectors get older. Our goal at VCF is to produce awesome events that show vintage computing to people * beyond * hobby insiders. When people who have casual interest attend a VCF, they're not going to come back if the room is a big confusing mix of exhibits and stuff for sale. These people -- a massive audience vs. the few of us active collectors -- aren't attending to find memory for their Banana 3000. They're attending to be wowed. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 13:55:43 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:55:43 -0400 Subject: Reality check: VCF isn't O'Reilly In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> Message-ID: <57152DAF.7010806@snarc.net> It's important to keep in mind that Maker Faire is a corporate thing with a full-time staff, while VCF is a small non-profit thing with a handful of devoted volunteers. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 14:00:26 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 15:00:26 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <57152ECA.3040403@snarc.net> > For VCF-West, I have a ridiculous amount of crap to dispose of Looking forward to seeing you there. I encourage you to sell as much as possible in consignment as long as it's on-topic. :) From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 14:05:16 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com>,<57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> Message-ID: Evan wrote: >> When people who have casual interest attend a VCF, they're not going to come back if the room is a big confusing mix of exhibits and stuff for sale. These people -- a massive audience vs. the few of us active collectors -- aren't attending to find memory for their Banana 3000. They're attending to be wowed. Evan, I think your point above is totally valid- I agree with you 100%- it's the right decision. Still, part of it seems like something that the primary local organizers should be able to weigh in on based on their idea of the intent of the event-- but then they are also free to not use / adulterate the VCF trademark, which is only fair. I suppose I just wish this singular VCF banner and a focused intent behind it had been enforced better from the start, and my main criticism is just that at this point VCF and the phrase "vintage computer festival" seem awful generic. No easy solution... Cheers, - Ian Sent from Outlook for iPhone _____________________________ From: Evan Koblentz > Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:52 Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Festivals??? To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Still, calling a hobbyist who> sells some of his creations a vendor is a dubious distinction, in my> opinion, since no one is making much money on these things, it's just a> service for fellow enthusiasts. All of the other shows I attend (like> the upcoming CocoFEST!) make no distinction.We have a good reason for doing this.Events that mix sales/exhibits together, without making distinctions from booth to booth, tend to become flea/swap-type events. That's fine for those of us IN the hobby, but these events will only ever shrink, not grow, as the audience/collectors get older.Our goal at VCF is to produce awesome events that show vintage computing to people * beyond * hobby insiders. When people who have casual interest attend a VCF, they're not going to come back if the room is a big confusing mix of exhibits and stuff for sale. These people -- a massive audience vs. the few of us active collectors -- aren't attending to find memory for their Banana 3000. They're attending to be wowed. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 18 14:18:06 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 20:18:06 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <571532EE.9060005@btinternet.com> On 18/04/2016 19:31, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 18 Apr 2016, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> I understand the desire to having a separate vendor area so as to >> keep the exhibit area a bit ?neater? and more focused on demos rather >> than selling/trading. It is a tradeoff and I agree it?s a choice that >> folks have to make if they want to exhibit or vend (ie without a >> number of folks it?s hard to ?do both?). > > Howzbout: have the two areas contiguous, with some portions explicitly > one or the other, and a middle area that is mixed? That allows for the > people who have something to SHOW, AND have a workroom to clear out. > > > For VCF-West, I have a ridiculous amount of crap to dispose of. Far > too much to burden a consignment group. Most of it would be very > cheap, other than the need to make the expenses (direct and > incidental) of the event. > For crying out loud guys. Its a hobby show! Minimum organization maximum participation. Book a bit of floor space. Show, Sell, Show and Tell, What the hell! Its what you _do_ not where you stand that counts. We are trying to preserve technology that's disappearing faster than morning mist in summer. Focus on the main mission. Legal and Decent is all the control that's need. Which is the better "It was a well run show" or "I saw a guy who rebuilt an 029 card punch" Rod Smallwood From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 14:19:14 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 15:19:14 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> Message-ID: <57153332.8020602@snarc.net> > Still, part of it seems like something that the primary local organizers should be able to weigh in on Of course. Local flavor is a good thing. There is plenty of it here in NJ and there will be plenty this summer in California. > I suppose I just wish this singular VCF banner and a focused intent behind it had been enforced better from the start I completely agree. Frankly, I think Sellam wishes he'd have done that. But we cannot change the past, so the new non-profit is looking forward instead. :) From earl at baugh.org Mon Apr 18 13:25:26 2016 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:25:26 -0400 Subject: ISO: Fujitsu M228x power supply (Josh Dersch) Message-ID: > > Another weekend acquisition is a Fujitsu M2284 SMD drive (14" platters > under a transparent cover, what's not to love?). It's in good shape and > was properly locked down for shipping so there's a good chance it'll > still work with some coaxing. I'm missing the power supply, however. I > believe this is the Fujitsu Denso B14L-0300-0018A. Anyone have one > going spare, in any condition? If this is the same drive as the Sun 1's, I actually have 2 spares right this min. (I am waiting to find out about someone locally who has some Fujitsu drives, which I haven't gotten model #'s from, but from description sound similar... so was keeping them for those drives... ) Mine are NOS, were spares from someone who used to do field engineering repairs on early Sun equipment. I might be persuaded to part with one, contact me off line.. Earl From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 14:43:12 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 15:43:12 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <571532EE.9060005@btinternet.com> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> <571532EE.9060005@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <571538D0.5090401@snarc.net> > Which is the better "It was a well run show" or "I saw a guy who rebuilt > an 029 card punch" Talk to me after you've organized nine VCFs, then you will think different about the first part of your comment. :) From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Apr 18 14:51:40 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:51:40 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? Message-ID: Agreed. The ? vintage camera shows do it the same way. ?Ed# Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Evan Koblentz Date: 4/18/2016 11:52 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Festivals??? >Still, calling a hobbyist who > sells some of his creations a vendor is a dubious distinction, in my > opinion, since no one is making much money on these things, it's just a > service for fellow enthusiasts. All of the other shows I attend (like > the upcoming CocoFEST!) make no distinction. We have a good reason for doing this. Events that mix sales/exhibits together, without making distinctions from booth to booth, tend to become flea/swap-type events. That's fine for those of us IN the hobby, but these events will only ever shrink, not grow, as the audience/collectors get older. Our goal at VCF is to produce awesome events that show vintage computing to people * beyond * hobby insiders. When people who have casual interest attend a VCF, they're not going to come back if the room is a big confusing mix of exhibits and stuff for sale. These people -- a massive audience vs. the few of us active collectors -- aren't attending to find memory for their Banana 3000. They're attending to be wowed. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 18 14:54:35 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 15:54:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <571532EE.9060005@btinternet.com> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> <571532EE.9060005@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <201604181954.PAA13090@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Which is the better "It was a well run show" or "I saw a guy who > rebuilt an 029 card punch" It depends on what your goal is. If you're trying to run something fleamarketish for those already at least partly inside the hobby, probably the latter. If you're trying to attract new people to the hobby...well, it strikes me as at least plausible that it's the former. But I don't think our hobby will ever be very mainstream, and indeed I'm not sure it even makes sense, since so much of what makes us distinctive is that we play with non-mainstream or no-longer-mainstream stuff. So it seems to me that trying to attract the mainstream is going to either fail or end up producing something very different. (Not that something different is necessarily bad, of course, but it is, well, _different_, not what we here have.) Most/all of us got here without being wowed in the mainstream sense by a classic computer show, after all. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 15:07:23 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 13:07:23 -0700 Subject: Any info on MTI 240 drive emulator? In-Reply-To: References: <57130571.2060601@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 11:39 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Hi all -- > > > > I just picked up an interesting device, it appears to be a drive emulator > > that adapts DEC SDI to either ESDI or MFM drives (I would guess ESDI, > but no > > real way to be sure.) It's manufactured by "Micro Technology" and is > > labeled as an "MDI 240" on the front. (On the rear as "SPEC.MDI-240", > P/N > > "970176-000".) > > I have a box at home with _a_ SDI->ESDI board and two 600MB ESDI > drives. I will see about cracking it open to see what's inside. > > I would have no docs, though... mine came to me in working order and I > just plugged it in. I'm using it with a KDB50 and my VAX8300. No > funny business. It just works. > Thanks. Even lacking docs, if you have the same (or similar) SDI->ESDI board that's in mine it would be useful to know. It'd probably also be interesting to know what model drives you have in there. - Josh > > -ethan > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 18 15:08:04 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 13:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <57152ECA.3040403@snarc.net> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> <57152ECA.3040403@snarc.net> Message-ID: >> For VCF-West, I have a ridiculous amount of crap to dispose of On Mon, 18 Apr 2016, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Looking forward to seeing you there. I encourage you to sell as much as > possible in consignment as long as it's on-topic. :) Q: policy/attitude/preference: At some swaps in the distant past, there were limits (dozen items?) posed on amount any one person could put in consignment. Are you wanting to INCREASE the consignment volume? I would love to just handoff a small station wagon full of stuff to THEM. In the unlikely event that I can get organized (Hah!), am healthy (not likely), and can round up sufficient help and transport at the right times (not a chance), I have enough crap to fill many pallets. Such as enough computer related books to fill >100 boxes (check archives for "FPUIB" for a start) Severe storage shortages meant that I had to discard things such as the MicroPro PBM-1000s, . . . Anybody here remember John Craig "Computer Swap America" at the San Jose fairgrounds? (later squeezed out by "NW Computer Swap" at San Mateo, etc.) Long ago, he and I had a chat and decided that the crap that I had at that time fell in between his categories of "commercial" V "Individual", so by mutual agreement, I alternated renting "commercial" and "individual" booths. The commercial stuff (such as crates of 300 baud modems) is long gone. Now it's all crap to get rid of. Not ALL for free: very early 5150, but "upgraded" to silver colored power supply, etc., Epson QX-10, Sony SMC-70, Toshiba T300 (720K 5.25") MS-DOS but not very PC compatible (I patched PC-Write to run on it). . . In addition to the computer stuff (VCF), I need to find venues for other crap, such as enlargers, stabilization processors, little motorized movie film processing tank, VW license plate light with backup lights, . . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 15:11:41 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 16:11:41 -0400 Subject: Any info on MTI 240 drive emulator? In-Reply-To: References: <57130571.2060601@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 4:07 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I have a box at home with _a_ SDI->ESDI board and two 600MB ESDI >> drives. I will see about cracking it open to see what's inside. > > Thanks. Even lacking docs, if you have the same (or similar) SDI->ESDI > board that's in mine it would be useful to know. It'd probably also be > interesting to know what model drives you have in there. Sure thing. I don't know model numbers off the top of my head, but the drives are whatever 5.25" full-height ESDI drives would have been common in that era, and I can take a photo of any jumpers. -ethan From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 15:23:08 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 16:23:08 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <201604181954.PAA13090@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> <571532EE.9060005@btinternet.com> <201604181954.PAA13090@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > But I don't think our hobby will ever be very mainstream, and indeed > I'm not sure it even makes sense, since so much of what makes us > distinctive is that we play with non-mainstream or no-longer-mainstream > stuff. So it seems to me that trying to attract the mainstream is > going to either fail or end up producing something very different. > (Not that something different is necessarily bad, of course, but it is, > well, _different_, not what we here have.) Most/all of us got here > without being wowed in the mainstream sense by a classic computer show, > after all. > To run a successful museum you have to cater at least somewhat to the general public. There will always be some degree of interest in old tech by the general public. Most museums of old tech, cars, and such include social references and props to help depict the context of the thing, what was happening when... What's nice about the vcf event is that they're a couple clicks more techie than your general science event or even a makerfaire. There is nothing like the vcf event. Evan worked tirelessly to make the latest successful. Bill Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 18 16:02:36 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 22:02:36 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <571538D0.5090401@snarc.net> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> <571532EE.9060005@btinternet.com> <571538D0.5090401@snarc.net> Message-ID: <57154B6C.5020201@btinternet.com> On 18/04/2016 20:43, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Which is the better "It was a well run show" or "I saw a guy who rebuilt >> an 029 card punch" > > Talk to me after you've organized nine VCFs, then you will think > different about the first part of your comment. :) Well I haven't done any VCF's but as a DEC Marketing Manager I was involved in many more than nine computer trade shows. It's not surprising and very laudable to want to make the show be the best you can. However once something intended as a gathering of enthusiasts and pioneers turns into a general "bring the family" show with good signage and marked areas. Then I fear for the future. Its happened before. Here in the UK the Ham Radio hobby used to have lots of what were called rallies. Just another name for a hobby show Lots of surplus parts, radios dealers who just sold ham equipment and so on. They grew in number and size. Lots of so called attractions, crafts and cake stalls were added. Then one year they imploded. The hams who used to go to by a few parts and meet friends and the ham related vendors had had enough and did not attend. The number plummeted and now there are only a few. So to quote American western lore. When the farmers arrive and enclose and manage the range the pioneers go over the hill. So enjoy your well deserved pleasure in a job well done. But ask yourself do men who inhabit basements full of piles of old computers care about what is where and how tidy the show is? Belshazzar's feast may have already begun, That the show's (in show organizers terms) are well run is not in doubt. But in doing so have those for whom the event was started been cast aside in favor of ma, pa, grandma, the kids and the dog. Rod Smallwood From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 16:28:25 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:28:25 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> Message-ID: <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> On Apr 18, 2016, at 11:52 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > We have a good reason for doing this. > > Events that mix sales/exhibits together, without making distinctions from booth to booth, tend to become flea/swap-type events. That's fine for those of us IN the hobby, but these events will only ever shrink, not grow, as the audience/collectors get older. > > Our goal at VCF is to produce awesome events that show vintage computing to people * beyond * hobby insiders. Within reason, the ones putting the hard work into the event should try to shape it according to their vision of what they think will make it better. I think it's even a duty. So Evan, thanks for doing this, please try it your way. See how it goes, consider feedback of this very vocal group without being too defensive, adjust for next time, repeat until it gets better... Now talking from the other side of my mouth. I agree with others that the swap/sale part is an important part (and attraction) of our hands-on and relatively affordable tech hobby. A lot of people would come for that, and it already sustains respectably sized businesses in our area (Halted, Weird Stuff, etc...). So we can't ignore it. But I also agree with Evan's points. If left unorganized, it quickly degenerates into very shabby, unsavory junkyard sales of worthless stuff, which is guaranteed to turn off the general public. Sure turned me off at other events to see piles of depressing junk right next to superbly restored hardware, although I *did* buy... So is consignment sales in a separate area the solution? Might very well be. Should booth of sellers be allowed if they meet certain standards? Our local "cleaner" Silicon Valley pros like WeirdStuff, SVC, Jameco and Anchor, to name a few, would probably pay a bit of $ to be part of this, and not detract at all. And maybe some independents if they pass some non-junk sniff test, or semi-organized "per brand" booth sales? But it would be harder to setup than the simple idea of consignment sales. Maybe to consider in the future. So, not having a better idea, not doing the hard work, and wanting to encourage the overall goal of making it better, I am all for supporting Evan's plan and see how it goes. Marc From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 18 16:53:28 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:53:28 -0700 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: <5714FFD2.4090005@pico-systems.com> References: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5714FFD2.4090005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <57155758.90807@sydex.com> I did some research among the antique fan collectors on the web. Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order: 1. SAE 20 *non-detergent* motor oil 2. Turbine oil (ISO 32 SAE 15) 3. 3-in-1 Electric Motor Oil (SAE 20) *note* Not the multipurpose "red can" stuff, but the blue can motor oil. 4. Royal Purple Synthetic INDUSTRIAL oil ISO 68 ~ SAE 25 5. Lithium grease in an aerosol spray--what I use. Be sure to shake the can before application. FWIW, Chuck From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 16:54:24 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 17:54:24 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> <57152ECA.3040403@snarc.net> Message-ID: <57155790.9070903@snarc.net> > Q: policy/attitude/preference: At some swaps in the distant past, > there were limits (dozen items?) posed on amount any one person could > put in consignment. Are you wanting to INCREASE the consignment volume? > I would love to just handoff a small station wagon full of stuff to THEM. The details aren't determined. When we figure it out (available consignment space for VCF West) then we'll announce it. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 16:58:25 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 17:58:25 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <57154B6C.5020201@btinternet.com> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> <571532EE.9060005@btinternet.com> <571538D0.5090401@snarc.net> <57154B6C.5020201@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <57155881.2060201@snarc.net> > But in doing so have those for whom the event was started been cast aside > in favor of ma, pa, grandma, the kids and the dog. No. That's a dumb question. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 17:03:30 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 18:03:30 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <1077641779.505639.64a26f1e-1a4a-42df-aca8-0c4131dfce8a.open-xchange@email.1and1.com> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <1077641779.505639.64a26f1e-1a4a-42df-aca8-0c4131dfce8a.open-xchange@email.1and1.com> Message-ID: <571559B2.20900@snarc.net> > In general, to have VCF shows relegate those folks to the vendor > hall just removes good potential exhibits from the show. "Relegate" isn't a fair word, Jim. The sales area is * right next to * the exhibits area. All I'm saying is we do not want to confuse the audience. They need to understand that here are entertaining demos and over there are things to buy. When I was young my father always took me to antique car shows. It's the perfect analogy for our hobby. Over here you have rows and rows of beautiful old cars shining in the sun (of course at VCF the equipment is running, not just sitting there!), and over on the other side you've got people selling stuff. These shows appeal to a much wider audience than just the people who actually buy antique cars. > In the end, given VCF East's stance, I think if I attend in 2017, I'll > just make up an exhibit of my wares, be in the exhibit hall, and just > tell people to meet me at lunch or after the show to buy the stuff. That's fine. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 17:12:28 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 18:12:28 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> > please try it your way ... See how it goes, This is not "Evan trying it his way." :) This past weekend was the 21st VCF based on the same arrangement (10 West shows until 2007, 11 East shows). We're not doing an experiment here. We (not just "Evan") have seen what works. Sellam mentored me in Festival management for a few years before he trusted me (and now the non-profit) to take over his baby. "See how it goes"...? It's been going great for 19 years. > If left unorganized, it quickly degenerates into very shabby, unsavory junkyard sales of worthless stuff, which is guaranteed to turn off the general public. Maybe one day we'll have a flea/swap event. Perhaps even include that as a separate day before/after the main show. VCF West XI this summer will be our standard arrangement (that's already settled). Sellam, the former MARCH, and now the non-profit have done plenty of innovative things. For example, at East a couple of years ago we added Friday which is devoted to technical classes. > So is consignment sales in a separate area the solution? Might very well be. It's worked fine for us our East and at all the past West shows. Again, something that works well ** twenty-one times ** is probably good. :) From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 18 17:18:38 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:18:38 +1200 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <571559B2.20900@snarc.net> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <1077641779.505639.64a26f1e-1a4a-42df-aca8-0c4131dfce8a.open-xchange@email.1and1.com> <571559B2.20900@snarc.net> Message-ID: >Over here you have rows and rows of beautiful old cars shining in the sun (of course at VCF the equipment is running, not just sitting there!), >and over on the other side you've got people selling stuff. These shows appeal to a much wider audience than just the people who actually buy antique cars. That's a good analogy. It sums up what can be the dual objectives for these events. I imagine it's hard to juggle when you want to do both. Give hobbiests a chance to interact and swap stories face to face, yet educate, inform and wow the general public as to where their laptops, mobile phones and the underline technologies came from. Now and again in a very loose and general sense some of us in New Zealand have mused about a New Zealand Vintage Computer festival. These comments and points of view are of interest to me. Terry (Tezza) From pete at pski.net Mon Apr 18 17:25:38 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 18:25:38 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <57154B6C.5020201@btinternet.com> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> <571532EE.9060005@btinternet.com> <571538D0.5090401@snarc.net> <57154B6C.5020201@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > But in doing so have those for whom the event was started been cast aside > in favor of ma, pa, grandma, the kids and the dog. > > Rod Smallwood Given that 90%+ of the folks who passed by my exhibit were grade A geeks, I don't think there is any danger of this. (Written as a certified geek ... as my wife will attest) From ethan at 757.org Mon Apr 18 17:44:28 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 18:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> <571532EE.9060005@btinternet.com> <571538D0.5090401@snarc.net> <57154B6C.5020201@btinternet.com> Message-ID: I brought some friends with me to VCF East this year. It was their first VCF East, and first VCF. Two of them help run "share their collection with the public at large for fun" type events down in Chesapeake Virignia with the public library and also the computer museum at MAGFest. Another friend was blown away that Stewart Cheifet was at VCF east (he agreed to go but never looked at schedule) and was also excited to meet the guy behind the BBS Documentary and Get Lamp. One friend is pretty cheap, penny pincher. He has a pretty large collection of game systems and some classic computers, but started into it before the big run-up in prices. I think I listened to him hem and haw and mentally debate himself over the TI/99 4A PEB thing for sale for 3 hours. The proprietary PC CD-ROM maybe got 30 minutes. Kind of amusing, to a point. He had never really coded in BASIC, and Friday he jumped in and tried to write stuff on the Apple II during the game thing on Friday. We ended up visiting 2 or 3 thrift stores in the general area (and got my picture and bought some snacks at the Quick Stop from the movie "Clerks" which isn't too far from Asbury P!) Silverball pinball museum was another must-do and this year I noticed a bunch of other VCF'ers there. My friends talked me into driving to NJ near NYC on Sunday to visit a retail game store. Friends picked up ~10 Coleco Adam tapes, TI/99 carts, and a few oddities for Oddysey/Intellavision and maybe some other systems. The only thing I would be interested in was boxed Space Quest III and Coleco Vision controllers, the DigitPress store didn't have those. The swap meet aspect is valued with regards to trying to fill in collections. Action packed weekend! From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 18 17:45:59 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 23:45:59 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <57155881.2060201@snarc.net> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> <571532EE.9060005@btinternet.com> <571538D0.5090401@snarc.net> <57154B6C.5020201@btinternet.com> <57155881.2060201@snarc.net> Message-ID: <571563A7.40904@btinternet.com> Hi Evan Just a quick aside. I am English as you know. We have long tradition of debate without malice. In addition I subscribe to the rule I may not agree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it. I serve on our local council and often have to disagree with close friends. Now were where we? Oh yes! Are you sure its a dumb question ? Reflect on your answer to my question as which was the more important the smooth running of the show or the content. Think what might have happened if I had stood up in meeting and asked for $50K for a show and been asked the same question and said the well run show will be more important than our new products. My comments are based on over forty years in the computer industry and innumerable shows that have come and gone. Regards Rod On 18/04/2016 22:58, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> But in doing so have those for whom the event was started been cast >> aside >> in favor of ma, pa, grandma, the kids and the dog. > > No. That's a dumb question. From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Apr 18 18:17:36 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 18:17:36 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 06:12:28PM -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Maybe one day we'll have a flea/swap event. Perhaps even include that as a > separate day before/after the main show. I think that would be a great idea. I would certainly go to both. mcl From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 18 18:36:14 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 16:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> Message-ID: > Maybe one day we'll have a flea/swap event. Perhaps even include that as a > separate day before/after the main show. It has been a long time. It has been far too long since VCF (west) John Craig experienced a process that a friend called "the inevitable decline of flea-markets". They start out as a peer event, where the attendees and sellers are the same people. Before long, realities of setup call for sellers being allowed in before buyers. That gives the sellers a headstart on buying the best deals. "We might as well just do musical chairs - when the music stop, you take home whatever is on the table that you ended up with" Soon, it attracted vendors who are NOT buyers. In the case of computer swaps, those were the vendors of Taiwan clone systems and parts. It was such a good deal for them that more and more of them signed up. Soon, there started to be a shortage of spaces (a delightful prospect for show management!). So, the management created a multi-level pricing for space. Competing companies offered more and more shows until there was one almost every weekend. Eventually, the show was ALL new item vendors, with hobbyists few and far between. Soon the hobbyist buyers stopped coming. There was a period of time where the show could still appeal to the general public ("great place to buy your new computer!"), but after a while, the swaps ceased to exist. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 18:40:16 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 16:40:16 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Eventually, the show was ALL new item vendors, with hobbyists few and far > between. Soon the hobbyist buyers stopped coming. There was a period of > time where the show could still appeal to the general public ("great place > to buy your new computer!"), but after a while, the swaps ceased to exist. > > Engineering "Feature Creep" in real life. -- Charles From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Apr 18 19:33:21 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 17:33:21 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <000001d199d3$17e667a0$47b336e0$@net> > For VCF-West, I have a ridiculous amount of crap to dispose of. Far > too much to burden a consignment group. Most of it would be very > cheap, other than the need to make the expenses (direct and incidental) > of the event. As a first time attendee I am of course first and foremost excited to see some of the older systems I have never seen outside of YouTube/pictures. However, I also wouldn't mind picking up items that I am looking for. Heck, I am going to be there with a car what better opportunity to transport stuff and make sure it gets back in one piece. After the last set of fiascos with all the major shippers (nobody is immune these days) and the rising cost of shipping (even though gas has been crashing fast) buying items outside of chips is becoming cost prohibitive! If VCF feels it would be best to separate the two areas fine - but please make sure to have the two areas for those of us who are hobbyist/enthusiasts! -Ali From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 19:40:18 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:40:18 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> <000001d199d3$17e667a0$47b336e0$@net> Message-ID: All depends For instance Lego On Apr 18, 2016 7:33 PM, "Ali" wrote: > For VCF-West, I have a ridiculous amount of crap to dispose of. Far > too much to burden a consignment group. Most of it would be very > cheap, other than the need to make the expenses (direct and incidental) > of the event. As a first time attendee I am of course first and foremost excited to see some of the older systems I have never seen outside of YouTube/pictures. However, I also wouldn't mind picking up items that I am looking for. Heck, I am going to be there with a car what better opportunity to transport stuff and make sure it gets back in one piece. After the last set of fiascos with all the major shippers (nobody is immune these days) and the rising cost of shipping (even though gas has been crashing fast) buying items outside of chips is becoming cost prohibitive! If VCF feels it would be best to separate the two areas fine - but please make sure to have the two areas for those of us who are hobbyist/enthusiasts! -Ali From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 20:05:52 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 21:05:52 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <000001d199d3$17e667a0$47b336e0$@net> References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <7046661F-6C23-4911-8926-7F6EB7006BB3@shiresoft.com> <000001d199d3$17e667a0$47b336e0$@net> Message-ID: <57158470.3020502@snarc.net> > please make sure to have the two areas for those of us who are > hobbyist/enthusiasts! We always do. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 18 20:18:09 2016 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 21:18:09 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <570FBA9D.6000600@gmail.com> <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> Message-ID: <57158751.8000607@sbcglobal.net> On 04/18/2016 01:47 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>>> No, if someone wants to have a new Festival in their area then *we > (Vintage Computer Federation) would run it* with local assistance. > > > The tone here seems awfully heavy-handed. And yours now seems pretty snotty. > > My personal opinion is that a singular entity running your festival > remotely- particularly with local folks doing most of the leg work- is of > dubious value. It will almost certainly limit the diversity and creative > charm of such events, if not now then in the future. And it's simply more > work for organizers to comply with... > > *So Mike, to summarize-- go ahead and do your own show your own way*-- just > don't use Evan's fraternity letters if you do so. Or work with Evan to use > the name "Vintage Computer Festival," if you see your event's value as > contingent on that banner. > > I think it's great that you want to start a vintage computing event in > Oklahoma, and would gladly toss you a small donation to help see it come to > fruition. > > Cheers, > > - Ian > > On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> No, it was not trademarked. Not until VERY recently >>> >> >> The legal stuff to do so is underway. >> > > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Apr 18 20:58:12 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 18:58:12 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? Message-ID: <394hpv5dw9cdd889vklljdcp.1461031092414@email.android.com> May want to jury it....you could get loaded up with piles of crap....... Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Evan Koblentz Date: 4/18/2016 2:54 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Festivals??? > Q:? policy/attitude/preference:? At some swaps in the distant past, > there were limits (dozen items?) posed on amount any one person could > put in consignment.? Are you wanting to INCREASE the consignment volume? > I would love to just handoff a small station wagon full of stuff to THEM. The details aren't determined. When we figure it out (available consignment space for VCF West) then we'll announce it. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Apr 18 21:11:40 2016 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:11:40 -0700 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: <57155758.90807@sydex.com> References: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5714FFD2.4090005@pico-systems.com> <57155758.90807@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I did some research among the antique fan collectors on the web. > Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order: > And if you're looking to preserve an extremely valuable museum piece and need the ultimate in non-reactive oil or grease, a perfluorinated polyether (PFPE) "oil" or one with PTFE nanoparticles is virtually guaranteed not to react with anything you might find a computer. But it is very pricey. $25 a gram for Brayco 815z "oil" and $28 a gram for Braycote 601EF or 602EF (with MoS2). The solvent you need in order to remove them is $0.25 a gram. But a gram of this stuff goes a long way. I'd go with 602EF for fan bearings. But it does somewhat reduce the need to worry about what happens if the "oil" gets hot or hits rubber or paper or plastic. It doesn't dry out, evaporate, or gum up at normal temperatures, since it's teflon and molysufide microbearings in liquid teflon. I wouldn't buy it to use for a personal machine unless it was one of a kind, or someone at the lab was throwing out a tube of out-of-date braycote. (Which hasn't been the case, I don't have a personal stash). From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 18 21:16:16 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <394hpv5dw9cdd889vklljdcp.1461031092414@email.android.com> References: <394hpv5dw9cdd889vklljdcp.1461031092414@email.android.com> Message-ID: > > Q:? policy/attitude/preference:? At some swaps in the distant past, > > there were limits (dozen items?) posed on amount any one person could > > put in consignment.? Are you wanting to INCREASE the consignmentvolume? > > I would love to just handoff a small station wagon full of stuff to THEM. > The details aren't determined. When we figure it out (available > consignment space for VCF West) then we'll announce it. But you probably want to set limits On Mon, 18 Apr 2016, couryhouse wrote: > May want to jury it....you could get loaded up with piles of crap....... I'm not expecting Evan to follow the same rules that Sellam had. He once rented a truck for taking some piles of crap when I was closing my office. In prior VCFs, I had a helper. He's dead, and I got stuck with most of his crap (including another few dozen boxes of books) From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Apr 18 21:32:57 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:32:57 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? Message-ID: Are we talking ?John Craig who used to have the 59 el camino?...ed# Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Fred Cisin Date: 4/18/2016 4:36 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Festivals??? > Maybe one day we'll have a flea/swap event. Perhaps even include that as a > separate day before/after the main show. It has been a long time.??? It has been far too long since VCF (west) John Craig experienced a process that a friend called "the inevitable decline of flea-markets".? They start out as a peer event, where the attendees and sellers are the same people.? Before long, realities of setup call for sellers being allowed in before buyers.?? That gives the sellers a headstart on buying the best deals.?? "We might as well just do musical chairs - when the music stop, you take home whatever is on the table that you ended up with" Soon, it attracted vendors who are NOT buyers.? In the case of computer swaps, those were the vendors of Taiwan clone systems and parts.? It was such a good deal for them that more and more of them signed up.? Soon, there started to be a shortage of spaces (a delightful prospect for show management!).? So, the management created a multi-level pricing for space. Competing companies offered more and more shows until there was one almost every weekend. Eventually, the show was ALL new item vendors, with hobbyists few and far between.? Soon the hobbyist buyers stopped coming.? There was a period of time where the show could still appeal to the general public ("great place to buy your new computer!"), but after a while, the swaps ceased to exist. From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 21:45:04 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 21:45:04 -0500 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: References: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5714FFD2.4090005@pico-systems.com> <57155758.90807@sydex.com> Message-ID: Forgive my ignorance.. What could possibly justify a cost of $25,000 (US) for a liter of this Braycote material? Of course, I'm extrapolating - $25/gm, assuming 1000gm/l. Sounds like a government contract rate to me. MoS2 and TFE-rich lubricants have been readily available for decades - and while they tend to be on the pricier side, I've seen nothing that touches $25-28/gm. On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Eric Korpela wrote: > On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > I did some research among the antique fan collectors on the web. > > Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order: > > > > And if you're looking to preserve an extremely valuable museum piece and > need the ultimate in non-reactive oil or grease, a perfluorinated polyether > (PFPE) "oil" or one with PTFE nanoparticles is virtually guaranteed not to > react with anything you might find a computer. But it is very pricey. $25 > a gram for Brayco 815z "oil" and $28 a gram for Braycote 601EF or 602EF > (with MoS2). The solvent you need in order to remove them is $0.25 a > gram. But a gram of this stuff goes a long way. I'd go with 602EF for > fan bearings. > > But it does somewhat reduce the need to worry about what happens if the > "oil" gets hot or hits rubber or paper or plastic. It doesn't dry out, > evaporate, or gum up at normal temperatures, since it's teflon and > molysufide microbearings in liquid teflon. I wouldn't buy it to use for a > personal machine unless it was one of a kind, or someone at the lab was > throwing out a tube of out-of-date braycote. (Which hasn't been the case, > I don't have a personal stash). > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 18 21:52:37 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2016, couryhouse wrote: > Are we talking ?John Craig who used to have the 59 el camino?...ed# No idea what he was driving. It was 35 years ago, so a 59 El Camino was certainly possible. I think that he was also one of the publishers of Infoworld, if that helps you track him down. But there were also a lot of other John Craigs. From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Apr 18 21:56:47 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:56:47 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? Message-ID: Sellam.... why has he retired?? He was also selling off his computers etc..... ?Ed# Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Evan Koblentz Date: 4/18/2016 3:12 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Festivals??? > please try it your way ... See how it goes, This is not "Evan trying it his way." :)? This past weekend was the 21st VCF based on the same arrangement (10 West shows until 2007, 11 East shows). We're not doing an experiment here. We (not just "Evan") have seen what works. Sellam mentored me in Festival management for a few years before he trusted me (and now the non-profit) to take over his baby. "See how it goes"...? It's been going great for 19 years. > If left unorganized, it quickly degenerates into very shabby, unsavory junkyard sales of worthless stuff, which is guaranteed to turn off the general public. Maybe one day we'll have a flea/swap event. Perhaps even include that as a separate day before/after the main show. VCF West XI this summer will be our standard arrangement (that's already settled). Sellam, the former MARCH, and now the non-profit have done plenty of innovative things. For example, at East a couple of years ago we added Friday which is devoted to technical classes. > So is consignment sales in a separate area the solution? Might very well be. It's worked fine for us our East and at all the past West shows. Again, something that works well ** twenty-one times ** is probably good. :) From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Apr 18 22:04:51 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 20:04:51 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? Message-ID: Yep that's him. Attended one of his show in maybe 1980? Had a van load of power supplies for 8 inch sugart.. drives. ?They were new and surplused by intel..in phxWe sold everyone! ?It was a great show.?Wonder what h e is up to now????? Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Fred Cisin Date: 4/18/2016 7:52 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Festivals??? On Mon, 18 Apr 2016, couryhouse wrote: > Are we talking ?John Craig who used to have the 59 el camino?...ed# No idea what he was driving. It was 35 years ago, so a 59 El Camino was certainly possible. I think that he was also one of the publishers of Infoworld, if that helps you track him down.?? But there were also a lot of other John Craigs. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 18 22:39:45 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 20:39:45 -0700 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: References: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5714FFD2.4090005@pico-systems.com> <57155758.90807@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5715A881.1060502@sydex.com> On 04/18/2016 07:45 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Forgive my ignorance.. > > What could possibly justify a cost of $25,000 (US) for a liter of > this Braycote material? Of course, I'm extrapolating - $25/gm, > assuming 1000gm/l. > > Sounds like a government contract rate to me. MoS2 and TFE-rich > lubricants have been readily available for decades - and while they > tend to be on the pricier side, I've seen nothing that touches > $25-28/gm. What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil? I'm very careful with PTFE-enhanced lubricants, such as TriFlow--they tend, for me, at least, to get gummy. A good petroleum oil should last decades in this particular application. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 23:15:18 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 23:15:18 -0500 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: <5715A881.1060502@sydex.com> References: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5714FFD2.4090005@pico-systems.com> <57155758.90807@sydex.com> <5715A881.1060502@sydex.com> Message-ID: "What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil?" Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm Whale oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant? They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a natural, animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the depletion of the resources (and finally, international treaties). P/TFE and MoS2 were formulated in industrial laboratories, and to this day, are turned out by industrial processes. Am I incorrect? On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 10:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/18/2016 07:45 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > Forgive my ignorance.. > > > > What could possibly justify a cost of $25,000 (US) for a liter of > > this Braycote material? Of course, I'm extrapolating - $25/gm, > > assuming 1000gm/l. > > > > Sounds like a government contract rate to me. MoS2 and TFE-rich > > lubricants have been readily available for decades - and while they > > tend to be on the pricier side, I've seen nothing that touches > > $25-28/gm. > > What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil? > > I'm very careful with PTFE-enhanced lubricants, such as TriFlow--they > tend, for me, at least, to get gummy. A good petroleum oil should last > decades in this particular application. > > --Chuck > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 23:42:20 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 23:42:20 -0500 Subject: Atari 800 finally tested, using home theater projector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Eric, Did you get my last couple mails? I have the carts you need, and sent you a list of the others I have on-hand.. didn't hear back. Maybe hit the /dev/null or..? On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 7:52 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > The 1027's problem is the type 'pallets' fail by falling off. I have not > seen one taken apart > and it was a long time ago I was offered one. It would be interesting to > see if one could > rebuild them. > > BTW the Teletype 40's have a similar issue, the type belt disintegrates. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFqEgpSXnNo > > one that has not yet come apart, sadly needs a new ribbon > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuwLbpr6yLo > > The plotter is pretty cool considering what a commercial one cost. > > > > On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 11:21 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Perhaps five years ago, a friend gave me some Atari 8-bit gear, > > including an 800, 800XL, 1020 plotter, 1027 letter-quality printer > > (which is undoubtedly no good now), and a 1050 floppy drive, but no > > software. The stuff has been in storage in my mother's basement until > > recently. I just kludged up a composite video cable for it, and tested > > it on a home theater projector. Without software, I can only test it > > with the built-in "Memo Pad", but it seems to work: > > > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/25892477424/ > > > > Now I'll look for BASIC and Star Raiders cartridges. It should be fun > > playing Star Raiders on the big screen. That was the first game I ever > > played on an Atari 800, back in 1979. > > > > > From jrr at flippers.com Mon Apr 18 14:40:40 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:40:40 -0700 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: References: <20160418022812.3F51018C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57153838.6020904@flippers.com> On 04/17/2016 8:11 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-Apr-17, at 7:28 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> Nope, the cylindrical (outer part of the) bearing is a plain cylinder. But >> looking at it closely, it's probably not copper, so it might be that Oilite >> stuff. > Online images do give a fair idea of the appearance of the surface texture and colour of oilite / porous bronze bearings. > It can generally be readily distinguished from 'pure solid' metal. > e.g.: > http://www.google.ca/search?q=oilite&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjvbLXkZfMAhULxmMKHUQVDvwQ_AUIBQ > > I've removed such bearing fittings often enough from equipment for random stock but don't recall whether or not I've seen them in box/muffin fans. > > I'd guess that grease may be a poor idea for oilite at least inasmuch as once there is grease in the pores the material will probably never again function the way it was supposed to with oil. > > I use a drop of synthetic motor oil on stuck fans, and tiny motors (P{hilips CDM series players) - works very well, no returns in ten years! John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 00:05:50 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 22:05:50 -0700 Subject: Weird c. 1982 Onyx systems 68010-based UNIX minicomputer Message-ID: Folks, Just thought I'd post this here for fun. I had heard of Onyx systems, a Z8000 UNIX system vendor. Recently I was contacted by someone in the Seattle area who claimed to have an unused Onyx systems 68010 system, perhaps a prototype. There is nothing about this I was able to find online. It came with distribution media on QIC tape- some generic looking (from the docs it came with) flavor of UNIX, which I am going to get help imaging. There is nothing on the hard drive (installed via ESDI to SCSI bridge)- it was never used or installed. I don't really need anything- the machine was new in box and works correctly. It has media- but I'd love more context if people know it. Sure, it's a very boring generic M68K box, but I can barely find any record of it existing. I know Onyx was originally bought by Corvus, who had their own 68K box- perhaps why this was killed. Cheers, - Ian (apologies for the Instagram image host, I don't want to dig it out right now but I will send proper pictures to anyone interested) https://www.instagram.com/p/6EcFCwNSz4/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n https://www.instagram.com/p/6GK8brNS_V/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n https://www.instagram.com/p/6GLEvutS_e/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 19 00:22:04 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 22:22:04 -0700 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: References: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5714FFD2.4090005@pico-systems.com> <57155758.90807@sydex.com> <5715A881.1060502@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5715C07C.4090904@sydex.com> On 04/18/2016 09:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > "What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil?" > > Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm > Whale oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant? > > They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a > natural, animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the > depletion of the resources (and finally, international treaties). > P/TFE and MoS2 were formulated in industrial laboratories, and to > this day, are turned out by industrial processes. > > Am I incorrect? No, just pointing out that there *are* other oils with very high price tags--and in years past, could be purchased by the gallon. ISTR that the antique clock folks still hoard whale oil. --Chuck From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Apr 19 02:47:51 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 00:47:51 -0700 Subject: Weird c. 1982 Onyx systems 68010-based UNIX minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 18, 2016, at 10:05 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > https://www.instagram.com/p/6GLEvutS_e/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n Are those a 68450 DMAC and 68451 MMU on the board next to the 68010? -- Chris From applecorey at optonline.net Tue Apr 19 06:14:48 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:14:48 -0400 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: References: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5714FFD2.4090005@pico-systems.com> <57155758.90807@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7D204396-B29B-4A11-B790-752C9B23CE7D@optonline.net> > On Apr 18, 2016, at 10:11 PM, Eric Korpela wrote: > >> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> I did some research among the antique fan collectors on the web. >> Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order: > > And if you're looking to preserve an extremely valuable museum piece and > need the ultimate in non-reactive oil or grease, a perfluorinated polyether > (PFPE) "oil" or one with PTFE nanoparticles is virtually guaranteed not to > react with anything you might find a computer. But it is very pricey. $25 > a gram for Brayco 815z "oil" and $28 a gram for Braycote 601EF or 602EF > (with MoS2). The solvent you need in order to remove them is $0.25 a > gram. But a gram of this stuff goes a long way. I'd go with 602EF for > fan bearings. > > But it does somewhat reduce the need to worry about what happens if the > "oil" gets hot or hits rubber or paper or plastic. It doesn't dry out, > evaporate, or gum up at normal temperatures, since it's teflon and > molysufide microbearings in liquid teflon. I wouldn't buy it to use for a > personal machine unless it was one of a kind, or someone at the lab was > throwing out a tube of out-of-date braycote. (Which hasn't been the case, > I don't have a personal stash). I have been waiting this thread out to see what options people are using. I like to use a product called SuperLube that I get at the gun store. It's synthetic and I find it doesn't like to pickup dust like other types of lube. It works great on an AR-15, marine fish tank light fan bearing, and on disk drive rails. Basically all extreme environment uses involving carbon, dirt, dust and salt water. SuperLube is available in a tube and isn't very expensive like whale sperm, I mean oil. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? From applecorey at optonline.net Tue Apr 19 06:14:48 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:14:48 -0400 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: References: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5714FFD2.4090005@pico-systems.com> <57155758.90807@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7D204396-B29B-4A11-B790-752C9B23CE7D@optonline.net> > On Apr 18, 2016, at 10:11 PM, Eric Korpela wrote: > >> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> I did some research among the antique fan collectors on the web. >> Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order: > > And if you're looking to preserve an extremely valuable museum piece and > need the ultimate in non-reactive oil or grease, a perfluorinated polyether > (PFPE) "oil" or one with PTFE nanoparticles is virtually guaranteed not to > react with anything you might find a computer. But it is very pricey. $25 > a gram for Brayco 815z "oil" and $28 a gram for Braycote 601EF or 602EF > (with MoS2). The solvent you need in order to remove them is $0.25 a > gram. But a gram of this stuff goes a long way. I'd go with 602EF for > fan bearings. > > But it does somewhat reduce the need to worry about what happens if the > "oil" gets hot or hits rubber or paper or plastic. It doesn't dry out, > evaporate, or gum up at normal temperatures, since it's teflon and > molysufide microbearings in liquid teflon. I wouldn't buy it to use for a > personal machine unless it was one of a kind, or someone at the lab was > throwing out a tube of out-of-date braycote. (Which hasn't been the case, > I don't have a personal stash). I have been waiting this thread out to see what options people are using. I like to use a product called SuperLube that I get at the gun store. It's synthetic and I find it doesn't like to pickup dust like other types of lube. It works great on an AR-15, marine fish tank light fan bearing, and on disk drive rails. Basically all extreme environment uses involving carbon, dirt, dust and salt water. SuperLube is available in a tube and isn't very expensive like whale sperm, I mean oil. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? From mspproductions at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 08:20:39 2016 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:20:39 -0400 Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very cool, Glad it was able to be saved, sounds like a neat system, do you have any specs on it, that you can share? On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Thank you all, and thanks Jay West for this wonderful venue. > > Less than 24 hours later the machine is spoken for, and I'm very excited > about where it is going. > > Another day, another rescue... :) > > On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > > > Does not require three phase. > > > > Complete system, includes sirius video and other fun stuff. > > RealityEngine2 > > > > Needs to be gone in a week or two- had made other arrangements but they > > have fallen through. > > > > Call Ian - two two four 659 four two zero 4 > > > > > > -- > > Ian Finder > > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions mspproductions at gmail.com KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 19 08:56:20 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weird c. 1982 Onyx systems 68010-based UNIX minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > I don't really need anything- the machine was new in box and works > correctly. It has media- but I'd love more context if people know it. Sure, > it's a very boring generic M68K box, but I can barely find any record of it > existing. > While (probably) not directly related to that machine, the only other Onyx I've ever heard of was in the early to mid 80's. It ran a multi-user Citadel (bbs) and was located somewhere in King County. The name of the system escapes me. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Apr 19 09:07:21 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:07:21 +0000 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: References: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5714FFD2.4090005@pico-systems.com> <57155758.90807@sydex.com> <5715A881.1060502@sydex.com> Message-ID: <71A5156F-7D60-495C-A63B-AF77D97F3860@swri.edu> On Apr 18, 2016, at 11:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm Whale > oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant? > > They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a natural, > animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the depletion of the > resources (and finally, international treaties). P/TFE and MoS2 were > formulated in industrial laboratories, and to this day, are turned out by > industrial processes. Braycote has enough nice properties that it is also (often) the lubricant of choice for a lot of space applications - which in many cases justify its (ahem) astronomical price. Its low out-gassing in vacuum and lack of mobility are huge assets there. I have not personally used it in any terrestrial applications, nor are any of my machines pricey enough to warrant it, so I can?t advocate one way or the other for its use on a classic computer. - Mark From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 09:53:47 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:53:47 -0600 (MDT) Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits Message-ID: Well, after discussing all things that can go wrong with a floppy disk to corrupt or destroy it, it makes me wonder about another vintage media format: the cart. How long will they last? Why does blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?) Are some better than others in terms of longevity? Can they be refurbished ? Remember when folks would publish apps on carts to enhance the copy protection ? Remember the ones like Starfox for the SNES that had coprocessors embedded on them? Those were neat. Seen the crazy prices for rare Neo Geo carts? $400 bucks for "Twinkle Star Sprites" ? Sure! I have some 90's consoles in my collection and I fondly remember a few systems that took carts that family and friends owned back in the 80's and 90's. I thought the Colecovision Adam was awesome. My cousin had one and I was so jealous. The C64, 80's 8bit Atari PCs, the IBM PC Jr, and others all had cartridge ports, too. -Swift From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 19 09:54:19 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: <5715C07C.4090904@sydex.com> References: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5714FFD2.4090005@pico-systems.com> <57155758.90807@sydex.com> <5715A881.1060502@sydex.com> <5715C07C.4090904@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm > Whale oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant? Well whale oil is merely an example illustrating that there are other expensive and/or hard to come by lubricants. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 19 10:13:39 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:13:39 -0400 Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <584FED0F-2D70-461E-9683-4EA36789B8E6@comcast.net> > On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > > Well, after discussing all things that can go wrong with a floppy disk to > corrupt or destroy it, it makes me wonder about another vintage media > format: the cart. You mean a ROM cartridge as opposed to a magnetic tape cartridge, right? ("Cart" is also broadcast radio slang for magnetic tape cartridges, vaguely like an 8-track tape in appearance.) > How long will they last? That would depend on the ROM type: mask, PROM, EEPROM. I don't know which was used. Fuse PROM supposedly may suffer from "fuse regrowth" depending on manufacturer and process used. But if well made I would expect them to last as long as any other solid state electronics. > Why does blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?) Placebo effect? :-) I can't see how it makes any difference, unless the contacts are dirty. If they are, they should be cleaned, with a proper cleaning method. paul From ethan at 757.org Tue Apr 19 10:29:15 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Very cool, > Glad it was able to be saved, sounds like a neat system, do you have any > specs on it, that you can share? Warms my SGI fanboy side to see these systems being saved! -- Ethan O'Toole From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 10:38:06 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:38:06 -0600 (MDT) Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits In-Reply-To: <584FED0F-2D70-461E-9683-4EA36789B8E6@comcast.net> References: <584FED0F-2D70-461E-9683-4EA36789B8E6@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > You mean a ROM cartridge as opposed to a magnetic tape cartridge, right? > ("Cart" is also broadcast radio slang for magnetic tape cartridges, > vaguely like an 8-track tape in appearance.) ROM carts, yes. I know what you mean about the old radio "carts" too. I've seen them, but that's about it. > That would depend on the ROM type: mask, PROM, EEPROM. I don't know which > was used. Fuse PROM supposedly may suffer from "fuse regrowth" depending Huh. Weird. I'll have to see how long that takes. My guess is that they will outlast anyone who cares enough to collect them, but maybe not. > > Why does blowing on them help? (moisture? cleaning action?) > Placebo effect? :-) I can't see how it makes any difference, unless the > contacts are dirty. If they are, they should be cleaned, with a proper > cleaning method. No disrespect, but it sounds like you've never owned an older 8-bit NES with some well worn cartridges. There is no doubt in my mind that blowing on those gives a much higher chance of making a flaky cart work right. I'm sure others can back me up on this. It's got to do something, because the effect is quite dramatic. Insert the same cart 20 times, it'll fail 20 times. Blow on it once and it works. My guess is that the thin layer of moisture/condensate is the key. Perhaps it helps overcome some resistance due to oxidization of the cart edge connector ? This effect, in fact, inspired the NES "Blow me" tee shirt here: http://www.bustedtees.com/blowme Swift From ethan at 757.org Tue Apr 19 10:43:46 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:43:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > How long will they last? Probably a long time, but dump them all anyways! You never know! > Why does blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?) The moisure makes the connection work better or something, so that is where it comes from. Cleaning the contacts is best, and if it's a NES you can replace the "finger module" or the slots on other systems. > Are some better than others in terms of longevity? The card edge connectors would probably be where the reliability comes in. > Can they be refurbished ? Depending on the system there are reproduction labels made. A lot of the older game system carts you will find the labels coming off or deteriorating. It depends on how they were stored I'd guess. Moisture and heat. > Remember when folks would publish apps on carts to enhance the copy > protection ? I think it was used more because the intro cost to the system was cheaper. Floppy drives were expensive, you could sell carts to people with basic systems. There were units for some of the game systems like the SNES that sat on top, and allowed you to copy the rom cart contents to floppy disks. Then you could re-load the contents of the rom cart from the floppy disks into RAM in the "console copier" and then play the pirated games. Also on the home computers people dumped rom carts and made binary executables. > Remember the ones like Starfox for the SNES that had coprocessors embedded > on them? Those were neat. Yes, I think there were only two for the SNES but I could be wrong. Check out Pitfall II on the Atari 2600, it has a sound processor in the cart. In the documentary "Stella at 20" the engineers of the Atari 2600 talk about how they cut ?4? pins off the Atari 2600 cart to shave costs. The next year the costs were so much lower it was a neglible price cut, but had the pins been left there it would have allowed more memory space to be accessable in the cart leading to tons of expansion possibilities. > Re: Rare Neo Geo carts > Sprites" ? Sure! Yep, have a 4 slot MVS at home and run a 161 in 1 cart in it. Sure I'd love to have piles of Magical Drop 3's and stuff, but just not gonna embrace the video-games-are-beanie-babies thing. Some of the N64 and SNES games are more now than they were new. But if you want to see real bubble, look into collecting A list pinball titles. > I have some 90's consoles in my collection and I fondly remember a few > systems that took carts that family and friends owned back in the 80's and > 90's. I thought the Colecovision Adam was awesome. My cousin had one and I > was so jealous. The C64, 80's 8bit Atari PCs, the IBM PC Jr, and others all > had cartridge ports, too. Yep, and the same damn games on all of them :-) AtariSoft! Parker Bros! Etc. Frogger and the Qbert and the Centipede and the Defender. -- Ethan O'Toole From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 19 10:45:24 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:45:24 -0700 Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits In-Reply-To: <584FED0F-2D70-461E-9683-4EA36789B8E6@comcast.net> References: <584FED0F-2D70-461E-9683-4EA36789B8E6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <57165294.9010706@sydex.com> On 04/19/2016 08:13 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Swift Griggs >> wrote: >> >> >> Well, after discussing all things that can go wrong with a floppy >> disk to corrupt or destroy it, it makes me wonder about another >> vintage media format: the cart. > > You mean a ROM cartridge as opposed to a magnetic tape cartridge, > right? ("Cart" is also broadcast radio slang for magnetic tape > cartridges, vaguely like an 8-track tape in appearance.) ...As opposed to the cart filled with listings, tapes and card trays that I/O clerks pushed around. Such a card full of 9 track tapes would probably qualify as a storage medium. Or the cartridge filled with buckshot that you'd liked to have used on the I/O clerk who dumped your tray of cards off the cart... --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Apr 19 10:45:37 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:45:37 -0700 Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits In-Reply-To: <584FED0F-2D70-461E-9683-4EA36789B8E6@comcast.net> References: <584FED0F-2D70-461E-9683-4EA36789B8E6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4641DCC8-0DB6-4CFB-9709-E94F19A894B1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Apr-19, at 8:13 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: >> >> >> Well, after discussing all things that can go wrong with a floppy disk to >> corrupt or destroy it, it makes me wonder about another vintage media >> format: the cart. > > You mean a ROM cartridge as opposed to a magnetic tape cartridge, right? ("Cart" is also broadcast radio slang for magnetic tape cartridges, vaguely like an 8-track tape in appearance.) > >> How long will they last? > > That would depend on the ROM type: mask, PROM, EEPROM. I don't know which was used. Fuse PROM supposedly may suffer from "fuse regrowth" depending on manufacturer and process used. But if well made I would expect them to last as long as any other solid state electronics. PROMs tended to be relatively smaller in capacity than the other options and not likely to be found in a cart. By the time you get into the production volumes of mast carts and large manufacturers, mask ROMS are going to be the economic preference. As such, carts are going to be quite reliable - more or less as reliable as any other piece of hardware involving ICs and worked contacts. >> Why does blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?) > > Placebo effect? :-) I can't see how it makes any difference, unless the contacts are dirty. If they are, they should be cleaned, with a proper cleaning method. > > paul > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 10:47:30 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:47:30 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > > Glad it was able to be saved, sounds like a neat system, do you have any > > specs on it, that you can share? > Warms my SGI fanboy side to see these systems being saved! I agree. I'm just glad I don't have to find the space or lift the damn thing :-) The Onyx is rad. However it's cool-to-weight ratio suffers with comparison to an Indy or O2. So, that's why I own those, instead. The Tezro is a bit in-between. It's about 2x to 3x the size of an O2, but it's still smaller than an Onyx. However, that Onyx sounds like it's decked out with the RealityEngine and the A/V option board (Sirrus) that was really fun & flexible before digital video ruled. -Swift From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 19 10:52:31 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:52:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) Message-ID: <20160419155231.67F2518C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> {Multiple replies packaged together to minimize list traffic...} > From: Jon Elson > If you open one of these up, make sure to oil the cotton packing to > supply oil gradually to the bearing. I don't see any sign of a cotton packing around it (but maybe it's just sealed away where I can't see it). There is a gasket/washer of some sort of packing material / felting at one end, but I suspect that's for dust interception, not as an oil resevoir, as in the fan's normal operating orientation, it's on the bottom. Speaking of orientation, though: these fans, like most PDP-11 fans, send air downwards. I was thinking of flipping them, to send the heat upwards (its 'natural' direction), but after pondering a bit, I'm not sure this is a good idea: the air-flow on the intake side is diffuse, whereas on the output, it's a concentrated, directed blast - better for cooling boards, etc. > From: Chuck Guzis > I did some research among the antique fan collectors on the web. Thanks very much for taking the time to do that; my only concern is to wonder if their experience is applicable, since these things are turning an order of magnitude faster than old household fans. > Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order: > .. > 3-in-1 Electric Motor Oil (SAE 20) That's what I've been working with so far, but I was wondering if it would last without going gummy. If they're happy with it for the long term, that sounds like it would be good for this too. > From: Corey Cohen > I like to use a product called SuperLube that I get at the gun store. > It's synthetic and I find it doesn't like to pickup dust Thanks for the tip; I'll see if I can find any here. Oddly enough, I had found something called Hoppe's Lubricating Oil on my shelf - it's for firearms and fishing reels, and explicitly claims that it "will not gum [or] harden", which also sounds like it might similar to the above, and just what's called for. I had seen reference online to people using synthetic automatic transmission fluid, but the stuff I looked at claimed to "stop leaks", which makes it sounds like it contains some agent which hardens (or at least coagulates) when exposed to air (although I would assume there was some exposure to air in the transmission?), which is definitely not what is wanted! Noel From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 19 11:07:36 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:07:36 -0700 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: <20160419155231.67F2518C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160419155231.67F2518C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <571657C8.9050804@sydex.com> On 04/19/2016 08:52 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Thanks very much for taking the time to do that; my only concern is > to wonder if their experience is applicable, since these things are > turning an order of magnitude faster than old household fans. Is it really that extreme? Most US AC induction motors seem to be spec-ed in the neighborhood of 1750 or 3500 RPM. Series-wound 'universal" motors of course, are very different animals. --Chuck From ethan at 757.org Tue Apr 19 11:07:46 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I agree. I'm just glad I don't have to find the space or lift the damn thing > :-) Compared to IBM, Sun big iron, Cray big iron the SGI Origin 2000/Onyx2 and Challenge XL/Onyx are very friendly fridge sized computers! They roll easy, they're lightweight and not overbuilt. They use a simple 220v or 240v or whatever outlet, and have bad-ass bargraphs on the front LCDs of the CPU load. I think they're the best of the newer large computers! > The Onyx is rad. However it's cool-to-weight ratio suffers with comparison > to an Indy or O2. So, that's why I own those, instead. The Tezro is a bit > in-between. It's about 2x to 3x the size of an O2, but it's still smaller > than an Onyx. However, that Onyx sounds like it's decked out with the > RealityEngine and the A/V option board (Sirrus) that was really fun & > flexible before digital video ruled. If I could find a cheap Tezro I'd have to add it to my collection. The Octane (green, R12K, dual video) is heavy as hell. I mean, it's innocent looking and plastic and stuff. But oh man, so heavy. I gave away the dual 24" widescreen CRT 1920x1200 SGI monitors that came with it :-/ They were getting flyback arcing to frame. At the time I didn't know what it was but now after reparing arcade monitors I could remediate it. -- Ethan O'Toole From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 11:22:40 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:22:40 -0700 Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I love the Onyx rack. Ethan wrote: > I think they're the best of the newer large computers They're something splendidly entertaining about a big honkin' graphical workstation that you can roll up to and poke around the GUI on. I have one of the full rack 3-phase ones in Seattle which, like the one I gave away, has the Audio option. J.P. (kiwigeek) helped me re-wire it to split phase, and I love showing people Quake, Maya and Photoshop on this giant behemoth from 1993. I hope the Chicago Onyx gets the love in it's new home that it deserves, and I'm pretty confident that it will. 12 i860s to run the graphics! How absurd! If we're rambling about SGIs now, my all time fav. is the Indigo 2 R1000 Max Impact. You see one, and it looks normal enough, but when you pop that cover- there is so much logic packed into that box! It's one of the densest machines I've ever encountered... Cheers, - Ian On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:07 AM, wrote: > I agree. I'm just glad I don't have to find the space or lift the damn >> thing >> :-) >> > > Compared to IBM, Sun big iron, Cray big iron the SGI Origin 2000/Onyx2 and > Challenge XL/Onyx are very friendly fridge sized computers! They roll easy, > they're lightweight and not overbuilt. They use a simple 220v or 240v or > whatever outlet, and have bad-ass bargraphs on the front LCDs of the CPU > load. > > I think they're the best of the newer large computers! > > The Onyx is rad. However it's cool-to-weight ratio suffers with comparison >> to an Indy or O2. So, that's why I own those, instead. The Tezro is a bit >> in-between. It's about 2x to 3x the size of an O2, but it's still smaller >> than an Onyx. However, that Onyx sounds like it's decked out with the >> RealityEngine and the A/V option board (Sirrus) that was really fun & >> flexible before digital video ruled. >> > > If I could find a cheap Tezro I'd have to add it to my collection. > > The Octane (green, R12K, dual video) is heavy as hell. I mean, it's > innocent looking and plastic and stuff. But oh man, so heavy. I gave away > the dual 24" widescreen CRT 1920x1200 SGI monitors that came with it :-/ > They were getting flyback arcing to frame. At the time I didn't know what > it was but now after reparing arcade monitors I could remediate it. > > > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Apr 19 11:29:05 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:29:05 +0000 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: <20160419155231.67F2518C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160419155231.67F2518C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <71236967-D262-4639-9778-454BC7400026@swri.edu> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:52 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Speaking of orientation, though: these fans, like most PDP-11 fans, send air > downwards. I was thinking of flipping them, to send the heat upwards (its > 'natural' direction), but after pondering a bit, I'm not sure this is a good > idea: the air-flow on the intake side is diffuse, whereas on the output, it's > a concentrated, directed blast - better for cooling boards, etc. I share the sentiment. However, in many cases thermal engineers actually had something to do with the original design and they also know about heat rising. I would be careful about second-guessing the design, at least on well-engineered systems. I reversed the fan on my NeXT 040 Cube a long time ago. That way air goes out through the Optical drive port, and does not pull dust into it. Shortly thereafter, I started getting very occasional read errors on the SCSI bus. I thought through the air pathway, and sure enough the SCSI chip was now *down*stream of the power supply. I put the fan back to its original orientation, and no problems since. (The optical drive doesn?t work anyway, but I understand that is not a rare problem and in this case I don?t believe it is related to dust.) - Mark From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 11:41:03 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:41:03 -0600 (MDT) Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > > Why does blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?) > The moisure makes the connection work better or something, so that is > where it comes from. Cleaning the contacts is best, and if it's a NES you > can replace the "finger module" or the slots on other systems. It seems like both sides can get worn out. I've seen carts that'd have problems wherever you took them, even on nearly new NES units. On the other hand I've seen well-worn NES systems that could barely play a brand-new cart. I'm guessing that's where replacing the finger module would really give you a new lease on life for your NES. > > Are some better than others in terms of longevity? > The card edge connectors would probably be where the reliability comes in. It looked like some were plated with gold, some with tin, and others I couldn't really tell (copper? brass?). I'm guessing gold-plated edge connectors would be great, but who knows, maybe gold is too soft. I'm not a metallurgist or a EE, so I'm just speculating. > A lot of the older game system carts you will find the labels coming off > or deteriorating. It depends on how they were stored I'd guess. Moisture > and heat. Selling reproduction labels sounds like a cool side-job for someone with an extra dye-sub printer laying around. > I think it was used more because the intro cost to the system was cheaper. > Floppy drives were expensive, you could sell carts to people with basic > systems. I didn't think of that. That makes a lot of sense. I was just a kid in the 80's. Business sense wasn't something I had a lot of at 8 years old. :-) > There were units for some of the game systems like the SNES that sat on > top, and allowed you to copy the rom cart contents to floppy disks. Yes! I remember those. I was in Jr. High and I remember going to some older kid's house (spoiled rich kid with a huge computer lab). One of the many things he owned that made my 12 year old eyes bug out was one of the units you are describing. He'd rent all the new games from Blockbuster Video and then copy them off to 1.44MB 3.5" floppies. They were always called something like "Super Mega Duper" or some take-off on the game console name with a bit of Asian flare from Hong Kong where they were made. What I wonder is where did people get them? My family was too poor for such things, but I still wonder where that kid got that gadget in the pre-internet era. Ads in the back of magazines or something ? > > Remember the ones like Starfox for the SNES that had coprocessors embedded > > on them? Those were neat. > Yes, I think there were only two for the SNES but I could be wrong. I think I remember reading the same thing somewhere. > Check out Pitfall II on the Atari 2600, it has a sound processor in the > cart. I just did. Neat. Here's the key excerpt from Wikipedia: "The version developed for the Atari 2600 featured a four-part harmony music soundtrack throughout the game, a first for the Atari 2600 platform. This was accomplished by building a custom chip called the "DPC" chip into the cartridge. This was also designed by game author David Crane." How many game designers of today could/would design their own silicon? I'm thinking there isn't a Unity module for that. :-) > The next year the costs were so much lower it was a neglible price cut, > but had the pins been left there it would have allowed more memory space > to be accessable in the cart leading to tons of expansion possibilities. That was probably some business-weasels' idea. They ruin everything. Look what they did to Commodore. The could not physically produce and sell enough Amigas when they died. How can you f-up a business like that? Wait don't tell me, you let some Ivy-league CEO load up on debt, cut corners on production, screw your vendors & partners, stall and cut R&D then just continue making old hardware, and finally allow the trademark to be pass through so many idle hands that the name becomes meaningless. That seemed to do it for Commodore. > Yep, have a 4 slot MVS at home and run a 161 in 1 cart in it. I have one of those MVS conversion consoles. I would have got an AES, but uhhh, not for the prices they go for. I'd probably have to spend 2-10x as much to get the same collection. I just have 5 "real" carts of my favorites (Samurai Showdown and the like). I rarely use them as I also have the Stone Age Gamer 161-in-1 rig. > gonna embrace the video-games-are-beanie-babies thing. Same here. Carts do make people more conducive to getting obsessive like this, though. You don't often see people getting that excited over 20 year old (and probably corrupt floppies) PC game original materials. > Some of the N64 and SNES games are more now than they were new. Some Zelda games comes to mind. I've seen the raw carts go pretty cheap ($15-20 bucks on ebay $20-50 bucks at local used shops), but some of the special editions where people still have the box and dox go for $250 bucks on Ebay. > But if you want to see real bubble, look into collecting A list pinball > titles. Hmm, weird. I wonder if that is because the generations of pinball players are getting old enough to retire and need more hobbies? Then perhaps they go out and buy all the best machines with the coolest tables and effects? It makes me wonder if Neo Geo carts will be $1000 a pop when my generation (gen-x) starts to retire. Maybe it'll be Amiga that'll shoot up. I kind of doubt it, though. My guess is that commodity 3D printers will be good enough to print replicas (or enough parts to make your own replicas) in the next 30 years. That would change these hobby economies quite a bit. > Yep, and the same damn games on all of them :-) AtariSoft! Parker Bros! > Etc. Frogger and the Qbert and the Centipede and the Defender. I know, right? It was always cool when some developer would go all-out and develop a game specifically to take advantage of one platform's hardware instead of trying to release it on umpteen platforms. Whenever they turned out any good games, there'd be a port to an "inferior" platform and we'd all know it since the gaming magazines would skewer them with screenshot comparisons. -Swift From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Apr 19 11:48:51 2016 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:48:51 -0700 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: References: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5714FFD2.4090005@pico-systems.com> <57155758.90807@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 7:45 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Forgive my ignorance.. > > What could possibly justify a cost of $25,000 (US) for a liter of this > Braycote material? Of course, I'm extrapolating - $25/gm, assuming > 1000gm/l. > First, I'm not trying to justify it outside of special circumstances. I'm sure Castrol will tell you that it's difficult to manufacture (they spend a lot of money figuring out how to make it without using CFCs). It does have special properties that the less expensive alternatives do not, primarily it will not dry or gum up unless the building burns down. > > Sounds like a government contract rate to me. MoS2 and TFE-rich lubricants > have been readily available for decades - and while they tend to be on the > pricier side, I've seen nothing that touches $25-28/gm. > I think nothing justifies it until you're using it in a machine that is one of a kind or worth spending that kind of money. Other cheaper MoS2 and TFE-rich lubricants don't necessarily have the chemical inertness, lifetime or low vapor pressure. If it still works after 25 years in orbit, it'll work on your fan Given that much of the physical damage to my micros and minis is from incompatibility of the original (i.e. cheap) materials with each other or degradation with time, if I had the cash to do so I would set a "thou shalt use no petroleum based lubricants" rule and a "thou shalt use only fluoropolymer elastomers" rule for replacement of rubber parts. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 19 12:02:29 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:02:29 -0700 Subject: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???) In-Reply-To: References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <571664A5.3070003@bitsavers.org> On 4/18/16 4:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > John Craig experienced a process that a friend called "the inevitable decline of flea-markets". two things have killed the electronics ones off in the Bay Area eBay and the nail in the coffin the state of California requiring a sales number if you sell more than 3 times in a year. https://www.boe.ca.gov/info/temporary_sellers.htm I tried selling at "Foothill" once last year and the experience was so foul I decided never to try it again. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Apr 19 12:06:36 2016 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:06:36 -0700 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: <5715A881.1060502@sydex.com> References: <20160418014327.6328018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5714FFD2.4090005@pico-systems.com> <57155758.90807@sydex.com> <5715A881.1060502@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 8:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil? > Quite a bit more than Braycote, I'm sure. And it would be nowhere near as good. But if I were restoring a $25,000 machine, spending $250 on 10 grams of Braycote wouldn't seem outrageous. Sure it's more expensive the going to the Texico station for a can of motor oil, but it's also not going to eat through the decaying rubber belts within a few years. > > I'm very careful with PTFE-enhanced lubricants, such as TriFlow--they > tend, for me, at least, to get gummy. Braycote isn't a PTFE-enhanced petroleum based lubricant. Those have all the disadvantages of the base lubricant (which can evaporate or change chemically), but with added PTFE. > A good petroleum oil should last > decades in this particular application. Probably. You just shouldn't get it (or its evaporation or decomposition products) on anything that that might react badly to them or get too warm. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Apr 19 12:09:23 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:09:23 -0700 Subject: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???) In-Reply-To: <571664A5.3070003@bitsavers.org> References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> <571664A5.3070003@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <003801d19a5e$393ac050$abb040f0$@net> > two things have killed the electronics ones off in the Bay Area > > eBay Well, eBay is killing itself slowly. Every year they make more and more onerous and anti-buyer rules and policies. That coupled with the fact that shipping rates are becoming unbearable is going to end eBay in electronics in a few more years. I know of a couple of flea markets here in SoCal but none are dedicated to electronics and even when someone is selling electronics it is usually crap. The reality is that this is a closed community for better or worse and the numbers keep shrinking. -Ali From ethan at 757.org Tue Apr 19 12:17:51 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:17:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > They're something splendidly entertaining about a big honkin' graphical > workstation that you can roll up to and poke around the GUI on. Only the Onyx series has graphics :-) Most of ours at NASA were headless with nothing but a serial console, and lots of CPUs. They crunched satellite data all day. 96 Processors on Origin 3800, Normally 32 IIRC on the Challenge XLs. > I have one of the full rack 3-phase ones in Seattle which, like the one I > gave away, has the Audio option. I didn't know there was a 3 phase option. Was it an Onyx2 or Onyx? My Cray uses 5 of the Sun E10000 style Pioneer Magnetics 5000 watt 48vdc PSUs, and even it was single phase (although I had it sitting across 3 phases just to get the power to it over a 30 amp cable.) > J.P. (kiwigeek) helped me re-wire it to split phase, and I love showing > people Quake, Maya and Photoshop on this giant behemoth from 1993. Very cool! > If we're rambling about SGIs now, my all time fav. is the Indigo 2 R1000 > Max Impact. You see one, and it looks normal enough, but when you pop that > cover- there is so much logic packed into that box! It's one of the densest > machines I've ever encountered... Yes, crammed full. The video cards are stuffed! -- Ethan O'Toole From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Apr 19 12:29:10 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:29:10 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57166AE6.8010206@snarc.net> > Sellam.... why has he retired?? I didn't say that. He simply stepped back from owning/managing VCF. He'll still be at VCF West and we invited him to be an exhibit judge. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 12:36:07 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:36:07 -0700 Subject: ISO: VAX 11/750 RDM (L0006) and/or ECKAL diagnostic listing Message-ID: Hey all -- Finally got the power supplies in my 11/750 humming again (after numerous failures) and generally things are looking good -- it passes microverify (I get the '%%' output at power-up) and most diagnostics (that I can run without an RDM) are passing. The ECKAL (Cache/TB) Diagnostic is failing, however; it runs for about a second and then spits out: 00003488 06 I have a spare L0003 board and it exhibits exactly the same behavior (also swapped in a spare L0002, no change). Socketed chips have been removed, cleaned and replaced to no effect. I'd like to track down an RDM (L0006) module (even if just to borrow one) to run the more advanced diagnostics. Failing that, a listing of the ECKAL diagnostic would be very helpful in figuring out what it's reporting... Thanks as always, Josh From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 12:38:49 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:38:49 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: <57166AE6.8010206@snarc.net> References: <57166AE6.8010206@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 1:29 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Sellam.... why has he retired?? >> > > I didn't say that. He simply stepped back from owning/managing VCF. He'll > still be at VCF West and we invited him to be an exhibit judge. > exhibit judge? -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Apr 19 12:47:08 2016 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:47:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> They're something splendidly entertaining about a big honkin' graphical >> workstation that you can roll up to and poke around the GUI on. > > Only the Onyx series has graphics :-) Most of ours at NASA were headless with > nothing but a serial console, and lots of CPUs. They crunched satellite data > all day. 96 Processors on Origin 3800, Normally 32 IIRC on the Challenge XLs. > >> I have one of the full rack 3-phase ones in Seattle which, like the one I >> gave away, has the Audio option. > > I didn't know there was a 3 phase option. Was it an Onyx2 or Onyx? The original Onyx ('Terminator') generally only had 3-phase if it had the VME backplane package added. Mine came from Boeing and had the VME cage (and a bunch of custom hardware of which I have no real understanding what it interfaces to), but it runs just fine on single-phase. For convenience I, uh, replace all the honking great TwistLoks, et al, with NEMA50P oven plugs. Both the plugs and the receptacles are cheaper than dirt and easily sourced even in a town of 4,000 people in Iowa. So when I use the Onyx I have (which is in my office) I unplug the oven (in the kitchenette) and plug in the Onyx. I'm reasonably certain that this is not what the engineers had intended, but due to their skill, it works a treat. > My Cray uses 5 of the Sun E10000 style Pioneer Magnetics 5000 watt 48vdc > PSUs, and even it was single phase (although I had it sitting across 3 phases > just to get the power to it over a 30 amp cable.) Yea, that's kind of my next trick. The J90 has some big-ass power cables I need to put NEMA50s on. Which reminds me - what the heck is the trick to getting the two cabinets to interlock? I can get the front tabs hooked in between the two cabs, but for the LIFE of me I can't get the back to get it to sit the IOS cabinet's inner frame inside the processing cabinet's outer. - JP From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Apr 19 12:58:55 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:58:55 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? In-Reply-To: References: <57166AE6.8010206@snarc.net> Message-ID: <571671DE.7080802@snarc.net> >> Sellam.... why has he retired?? >>> >> >> I didn't say that. He simply stepped back from owning/managing VCF. He'll >> still be at VCF West and we invited him to be an exhibit judge. >> > exhibit judge? We haven't had judging at VCF East, but Sellam always did at West and we'll probably continue it this summer. From marvin at west.net Tue Apr 19 13:07:53 2016 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:07:53 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festivals??? Message-ID: <571673F9.60001@west.net> From: Evan Koblentz > For VCF-West, I have a ridiculous amount of crap to dispose of Looking forward to seeing you there. I encourage you to sell as much as possible in consignment as long as it's on-topic. :) ********** Evan, One thing I ALWAYS looked forward to at the VCF shows was being able to "get rid" of excess stuff by selling it. Another big benefit was the socializing that always took place. Selling through a consignment table removes most of the motivation for me to attend. I have some friends here in SB who are planning on attending who want me to go with them. One of them suggested putting in a Craigslist ad to sell out of the van at the event or after hours :). Regardless, I have mixed feelings about attending. My current thought is to see about attending VCF Midwest since they appear to be combining a flea market with exhibitors. I'm not trying to change your mind, but I am trying to make clear my reasons for attending this type of show. Marvin From laurens at daemon.be Tue Apr 19 13:29:11 2016 From: laurens at daemon.be (Laurens Vets) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:29:11 -0700 Subject: Manual for DEC 433au In-Reply-To: References: <015301d197dd$b1f735b0$15e5a110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <320f15182e8d3479112d2fd893ede1b2@daemon.be> On 2016-04-16 18:07, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 5:44 AM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: >> Anyone got the following document: DIGITAL Personal Workstation >> System >> Reference and Maintenance Guide >> > > Only thing I managed to find so far: > http://www.cilinder.be/docs/digitalpwsau/miatasg.zip > > Download and unzip that, then start at: > miatasg\dpws_aau\Service\Aaudpwssg.htm > > DIGITAL Personal Workstation System Reference and Maintenance Guide > a/au-Series > > It's a collection of html pages, not a single pdf manual, and not > super friendly, but better than nothing. Unfortunately, I never got/found the pdf of that manual :( Btw, cilinder.be is my site, I only keep it in the air for the old documentation. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Apr 19 13:46:24 2016 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 19:46:24 +0100 Subject: Microscience HH-1090 MFM hard disk manuals Message-ID: <57167D00.9090501@philpem.me.uk> Hi there, Does anyone happen to have any manuals kicking around for Microscience MFM hard disk drives? One for the HH-1090 would be very nice -- especially if it includes service information (read: schematics). I have, as the gentleman said, a cunning plan... however, a little more information would save me a lot of effort. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 13:58:52 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:58:52 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > They're something splendidly entertaining about a big honkin' graphical > workstation that you can roll up to and poke around the GUI on. No doubt. The main thing to me is that they aren't "boring" business machines. They were made to do fun creative things on them. SGI was also about the only company who, at the time, made a Unix variant that cared about graphics and sound. I like to compare them with machines of the same age (ie.. within a few months) from Sun. Let's see, I have $2500 and it's 1993 or so. Do I want a SPARCstation IPX with 8-bit graphics and mono sound or an SGI Indy - no freakin' contest whatsoever in my mind. I wrote Sun off after they turned their backs on SunOS. Unfortunately, I had to work with their gear and live through e-cache errors and the whole sordid extended death ending with the ignominious demise of being bought by one of your software vendors. Ugh. Of course, watching SGI under Rick Belluzo (I hated that guy) wasn't much easier. "Ohhh, I'm ex-Microsoft so let's make Windows NT workstations." Ugh, Puh!, Bleh.... grrreeeeaaat idea, guys. I wish the board could be retroactively fired for that. I guess some folks feel the same way about DEC under Robert Palmer. > split phase, and I love showing people Quake, Maya and Photoshop on this > giant behemoth from 1993. Don't forget all the awesome texture demos you could do with those machines that had enough TRAM. > 12 i860s to run the graphics! How absurd! Those processors showed up in the weirdest places. I remember seeing them on DEC SCSI controllers quite a bit, too. > If we're rambling about SGIs now, my all time fav. is the Indigo 2 R1000 > Max Impact. You see one, and it looks normal enough, but when you pop > that cover- there is so much logic packed into that box! It's one of the > densest machines I've ever encountered... I had one of those for years and used it as my main workstation for 2-3 years. You are right about the density. I know the SGI Indy also had some ridiculous number of PCB layers, too. SGI engineers must have liked to go vertical. My fav (by a nose hair) is the O2. The UMA and CRM graphics were revolutionary at the time and still rock rather hard (1GB of 24-bit video memory in 1996 anyone? Sun? HP? Didn't think so...). About the only thing in the 1990's that had the media grunt of an SGI was a NeXT Cube with the fancy DSP board. However, they didn't have enough decent software for it. It was just too $$$. Macs had plenty of software, but the graphics options often sucked (especially for video) until 3rd party vendors started releasing cheap capture boards in the late 90's. The Quadra 840AV and 660AV were the only exceptions to what I considered a fairly mundane run of machines. At least they weren't beige, though. -Swift From ethan at 757.org Tue Apr 19 14:03:21 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:03:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The original Onyx ('Terminator') generally only had 3-phase if it had the VME > backplane package added. Mine came from Boeing and had the VME cage (and a > bunch of custom hardware of which I have no real understanding what it > interfaces to), but it runs just fine on single-phase. Ah okay. > For convenience I, uh, replace all the honking great TwistLoks, et al, with > NEMA50P oven plugs. Both the plugs and the receptacles are cheaper than dirt > and easily sourced even in a town of 4,000 people in Iowa. So when I use the > Onyx I have (which is in my office) I unplug the oven (in the kitchenette) > and plug in the Onyx. I like the twistlocks so much, would never let em go! > Yea, that's kind of my next trick. The J90 has some big-ass power cables I > need to put NEMA50s on. I put 30A twist locks on them, they were cut from the prior owner on mine (the plugs were hacked off but there is plenty of power cable.) > Which reminds me - what the heck is the trick to getting the two cabinets to > interlock? I can get the front tabs hooked in between the two cabs, but for > the LIFE of me I can't get the back to get it to sit the IOS cabinet's inner > frame inside the processing cabinet's outer. Man up! Mine is J932 so the CPU cabinet is about 2.5' - 3' deeper than the disk cabinet. There are these silver square box things with screw holes on opposing sides. Screw one side of them to one side, and swing the cabinets together. The floor needs to be fairly level. I usually find it's easier to push the disk rack around so I mate the disk rack to the CPU rack. I assume the CPU Rack on a J916 is quite a bit lighter (but not light.) There are screw holes for that hook together block on both sides. Maybe I just finger tighten the one on the CPU rack because it's hard to access - can't quite remember. -- Ethan O'Toole From lists at loomcom.com Tue Apr 19 14:25:34 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:25:34 -0500 Subject: Imlac PDS-1 source code Message-ID: <20160419192534.GA1774@loomcom.com> While arranging some shelves, I came across an Imlac PDS-1 printset that I rescued from somewhere (I don't remember where) What I didn't realize was that in the back of the printset was some assembler source code for David Bloodgood's "Imlac terminal emulator program". Photos here: http://imgur.com/a/QrV4T I haven't found this online. Is it interesting to anyone? Would anyone like a scan of it? -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Apr 19 14:28:15 2016 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Abraham) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compugraphic MCS5 typesetter monitor needed Message-ID: I'm seeking the monitor for a Compugraphic MCS5 typesetter. If anyone has one of these and is willing to let it go, please contact me directly. Thanks! -- Sellam Abraham VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. The truth is always simple. * * * NOTICE * * * Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered reliable for any purpose either express or implied. The contents of this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. The right of the people to be secure in their papers against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 14:35:56 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:35:56 -0700 Subject: Imlac PDS-1 source code In-Reply-To: <20160419192534.GA1774@loomcom.com> References: <20160419192534.GA1774@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > While arranging some shelves, I came across an Imlac PDS-1 printset > that I rescued from somewhere (I don't remember where) > > What I didn't realize was that in the back of the printset was some > assembler source code for David Bloodgood's "Imlac terminal emulator > program". > > Photos here: > > http://imgur.com/a/QrV4T > > I haven't found this online. Is it interesting to anyone? Would anyone > like a scan of it? > I'd love a scan of it, I have an Imlac PDS-1D and wrote an emulator for it awhile back (still need to polish that up: http://rottedbits.blogspot.com/2013/07/simlac-v00-is-ready-for-human.html) There's precious little software out there for this thing, so any new stuff is welcome news! - Josh > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito > seth at loomcom.com > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 14:37:55 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:37:55 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from Message-ID: Here's my top 3 weirdest devices I've ever sent email through, just for fun: 1. The AlphaSmart "Dana" which was a strange laptop-like device which ran PalmOS. The email client was Eudora for PalmOS. 2. Sony eVilla BeIA appliance using some kind of (crappy) built-in mail application. 3. Sharp Wizard handheld organizer over a serial TTY connected to a 386/SX with optional math co-processor installed so it could run ... Xenix. Logged in via simple built-in vt100 terminal app on the wizard at 2400 BPS to the Unix box. Used 'elm' to send the mail. That Sharp Wizard was a helluva organizer for it's time. The main feature was that it takes AAA batteries and thus I was actually able to afford to run the thing in college by getting rechargables. It had a nice keyboard and the display was readable in the sunlight, too. No backlight, though. -Swift From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 19 14:17:45 2016 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:17:45 +0100 Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits References: Message-ID: <011801d19a73$f1d59d00$72fd220a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Swift Griggs" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 3:53 PM Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits > Seen the crazy prices for rare Neo Geo carts? $400 bucks for "Twinkle Star > Sprites" ? Sure! > > -Swift Heh! I knew someone around 15 years ago that paid ?700 for a rare Japanese Neo Geo cartridge. (No, I can't recall which game) Another cartridge related question I'd like to throw open to the collective: what about cartridges that have internal saves on them, such as Super Mario World (SNES) or Micro Machines (Megadrive)? Does playing them regularly really recharge the battery/non-volatile RAM so they continue to keep the saves intact? I usually play my cart games with saves on every year and that seems to keep the saves intact (Donkey Kong Country 1 (SNES) is about 22 years old now and I bought the game at it's UK launch). Regards, Andrew Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk www.aliensrcooluk.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 19 14:29:03 2016 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:29:03 +0100 Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits References: Message-ID: <011901d19a73$f29c4860$72fd220a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:43 PM Subject: Re: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits > > Remember the ones like Starfox for the SNES that had coprocessors embedded > > on them? Those were neat. > > Yes, I think there were only two for the SNES but I could be wrong. Check > out Pitfall II on the Atari 2600, it has a sound processor in the cart. > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > Sorry, you are wrong. I own three SNES games that use the SFX chip: Starfox, Stunt Race FX and Yoshi's Island (SFX chip used for sprite rotation and 3D objects, such as doors that fell towards the screen). There was to be a Stunt Race FX 2 game, but I believe it was cancelled and never released. The Megadrive had a few games too, with the SVP (Sega Virtua Processor) chip: Virtua Fighter (I think?), Virtua Racing (definately) and Vectorman (I think?). Regards, Andrew Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk www.aliensrcooluk.com From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 14:52:40 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:52:40 -0600 (MDT) Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits In-Reply-To: <011901d19a73$f29c4860$72fd220a@user8459cef6fa> References: <011901d19a73$f29c4860$72fd220a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Andrew Burton wrote: > Sorry, you are wrong. I own three SNES games that use the SFX chip: > Starfox, Stunt Race FX and Yoshi's Island (SFX chip used for sprite > rotation and 3D objects, such as doors that fell towards the screen). Cool. I thought there were only two as well. Glad to be corrected, then. I don't remember Stunt Race FX, but I sure loved Starfox. > The Megadrive had a few games too, with the SVP (Sega Virtua Processor) > chip: Virtua Fighter (I think?), Virtua Racing (definately) and Vectorman (I > think?). Oh I never heard about that one. I believe I have one of those titles for the Sega 32X, too. However, it probably had enough grunt to play it as-is. I'm not sure if the 32X had any 3D hardware. -Swift From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 15:15:28 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:15:28 -0400 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) Message-ID: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> I finally found my micrometer; is there a cross-reference of pin # vs. depth or just a list of standard depths for ACE keys somewhere? m From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 19 15:24:51 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:24:51 -0400 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> Message-ID: <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> > On Apr 19, 2016, at 4:15 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > I finally found my micrometer; is there a cross-reference of pin # vs. depth or just a list of standard depths for ACE keys somewhere? Look here, http://www.hpcworld.com/mobile/km/pocketcutup/index.html, click "See the manual", it's at the bottom of the first page. Looks like a neat little machine. I don't have one (or any knowledge of these devices), but if I needed keys like that I'd consider it. paul From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 16:47:15 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:47:15 -0500 Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > > > Why does blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?) > > The moisure makes the connection work better or something, so that is > > where it comes from. Cleaning the contacts is best, and if it's a NES > you > > can replace the "finger module" or the slots on other systems. > > It seems like both sides can get worn out. I've seen carts that'd have > problems wherever you took them, even on nearly new NES units. On the > other > hand I've seen well-worn NES systems that could barely play a brand-new > cart. I'm guessing that's where replacing the finger module would really > give you a new lease on life for your NES. > > I bought an NES back in the day brand-new ( I guess that would have been about 1988) and as an anally-retentive pre-teen I never had problems with any of the cartridges that I spent my hard-earned lawn mowing money on for couple of years worth of solid play... that is until I lent them out to friends that would invariably use the "blow in the cartridge" trick. It does work, and I suspect that the moisture from your breath is the correct culprit. Some carts had gold fingers, some tinned, and as I later went on to work at a local video game swapping business as a teenager I noted that quite a few of the tin plated edge connector carts were really really corroded... from people blowing on the carts no doubt. Nevertheless, later model systems without the ZIF connector never seemed to have the same issues with carts that the NES had. :) From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 16:49:26 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:49:26 -0500 Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > I have some 90's consoles in my collection and I fondly remember a few > systems that took carts that family and friends owned back in the 80's and > 90's. I thought the Colecovision Adam was awesome. My cousin had one and > I > was so jealous. The C64, 80's 8bit Atari PCs, the IBM PC Jr, and others > all > had cartridge ports, too. > I loved (and still do) the ADAM. It is an under-appreciated machine these days IMO. Most of the initial launch issues you read about have long since been corrected by the ravages of time, and what remains are on the whole pretty solid units. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 19 15:28:13 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Mike Stein wrote: > I finally found my micrometer; is there a cross-reference of pin # vs. > depth or just a list of standard depths for ACE keys somewhere? Yes. Called a "depth and space reference" (different for manufacturer, and sometimes blank) 5 years ago, we had a similar discussion: On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Not sure about tolerances (my brother is a locksmith but I'm not), but > according to... > http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_and_Depth > The depths by number are: > 1 - 0.0155" > 2 - 0.0310" > 3 - 0.0465" > 4 - 0.0620" > 5 - 0.0775" > 6 - 0.093" > 7 - 0.1085" > 8 - 0.1240" From jws at jwsss.com Tue Apr 19 15:58:16 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:58:16 -0700 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> Message-ID: <57169BE8.5040008@jwsss.com> Also reference how you counted them, clockwise or counter clockwise. There may be a standard, in a recent exercise with Jay West (who knows more on this than I do) the locksmith we went to to have some of Jay's measured keys made was used to people not recalling when they had the codes that Fred references. A friend with a locksmith made keys from Jay's measurements and they have been verified (the measurements) to make keys from scratch w/o a master. thanks Jim On 4/19/2016 1:28 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Mike Stein wrote: >> I finally found my micrometer; is there a cross-reference of pin # >> vs. depth or just a list of standard depths for ACE keys somewhere? > > Yes. Called a "depth and space reference" (different for > manufacturer, and sometimes blank) > 5 years ago, we had a similar discussion: > > On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Not sure about tolerances (my brother is a locksmith but I'm not), but >> according to... >> > http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_and_Depth > >> The depths by number are: >> 1 - 0.0155" >> 2 - 0.0310" >> 3 - 0.0465" >> 4 - 0.0620" >> 5 - 0.0775" >> 6 - 0.093" >> 7 - 0.1085" >> 8 - 0.1240" > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 19 16:32:34 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > Look here, http://www.hpcworld.com/mobile/km/pocketcutup/index.html, click "See the manual", it's at the bottom of the first page. > Looks like a neat little machine. I don't have one (or any knowledge of > these devices), but if I needed keys like that I'd consider it. It's a little costly for the amount of need that we have. What do you think of the Klom imitation of it? From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 19 16:48:47 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote: >> Look here, http://www.hpcworld.com/mobile/km/pocketcutup/index.html, click >> "See the manual", it's at the bottom of the first page. >> Looks like a neat little machine. I don't have one (or any knowledge of >> these devices), but if I needed keys like that I'd consider it. > > It's a little costly for the amount of need that we have. > What do you think of the Klom imitation of it? If someone wants to send me a 3D model of a key, I'll try 3D printing one to see how that works out. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 17:50:25 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 17:50:25 -0500 Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5716B631.9050207@gmail.com> On 04/19/2016 11:22 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > If we're rambling about SGIs now, my all time fav. is the Indigo 2 R1000 > Max Impact. You see one, and it looks normal enough, but when you pop that > cover- there is so much logic packed into that box! It's one of the densest > machines I've ever encountered... Ditto. I do like mine. Extra TRAM option, 384MB of RAM, 2x4GB disks. It gets a little toasty (but it's got the feet for standing it up on its side, and I think that helps a little with the heat dissipation - plus it looks a lot nicer! :-) I'm not sure if there was a 'correct' display/keyboard/rodent setup on those machines? Mine came with a white keyboard and mouse but granite display, and I assume that they should really all be matched. I still really need to find a purpose for it. Maya would be nice (and if I remember right there's evidence that it was originally accessible from that machine, but via a long-gone network drive), but I assume that period versions are difficult to get hold of. cheers Jules From grif615 at mindspring.com Tue Apr 19 20:14:26 2016 From: grif615 at mindspring.com (Grif) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 18:14:26 -0700 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) Message-ID: Did not read the whole thread, ?ill chime in with a vote for a tiny drill, an insulin syringe and ATF. ?done it since the 70s on muffin fans, 10 previous years on bronze bushed blower motors. -------- Original message -------- From: Chuck Guzis Date: 04/18/2016 22:22 (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) On 04/18/2016 09:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > "What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil?" > > Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm > Whale oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant? > > They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a > natural, animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the > depletion of the resources (and finally, international treaties). > P/TFE and MoS2 were formulated in industrial laboratories, and to > this day, are turned out by industrial processes. > > Am I incorrect? No, just pointing out that there *are* other oils with very high price tags--and in years past, could be purchased by the gallon. ISTR that the antique clock folks still hoard whale oil. --Chuck ??? From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 20:29:40 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:29:40 -0500 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ATF.. ATF?!?!? Heresy, heresy!! Not. I suppose it depends what we're talking about, Type F or the various grades of Dexron. But that's what I have in my pump oiler can. Per my understanding, it's essentially a highly-refined 20W oil with a series of additives that allow it to serve double-duty as the hydraulic working fluid in torque converters and automatic transmission clutches. There are also additives that are permitted in ATF which would be excluded from crankcase oils, as the latter have a much greater tendency to enter the environment. On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 8:14 PM, Grif wrote: > Did not read the whole thread, ill chime in with a vote for a tiny drill, > an insulin syringe and ATF. done it since the 70s on muffin fans, 10 > previous years on bronze bushed blower motors. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Chuck Guzis > Date: 04/18/2016 22:22 (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) > > On 04/18/2016 09:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > "What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil?" > > > > Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm > > Whale oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant? > > > > They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a > > natural, animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the > > depletion of the resources (and finally, international treaties). > > P/TFE and MoS2 were formulated in industrial laboratories, and to > > this day, are turned out by industrial processes. > > > > Am I incorrect? > > No, just pointing out that there *are* other oils with very high price > tags--and in years past, could be purchased by the gallon. > > ISTR that the antique clock folks still hoard whale oil. > > --Chuck > > ??? > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 19 22:00:16 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 22:00:16 -0500 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5716F0C0.4000904@pico-systems.com> On 04/19/2016 08:29 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > ATF.. ATF?!?!? Heresy, heresy!! > > Not. > > I suppose it depends what we're talking about, Type F or the various grades > of Dexron. But that's what I have in my pump oiler can. Per my > understanding, it's essentially a highly-refined 20W oil with a series of > additives that allow it to serve double-duty as the hydraulic working fluid > in torque converters and automatic transmission clutches. > > Not so sure about that, but maybe it is all in the additives. it seems like typical ATF is a LOT thinner than 20W oil. Also, it is pretty well known that if you put a complete fill of ATF into an engine crankcase, the rings will last about 10 miles before the compression goes to zero. If you put engine oil in the transmission, then the clutches will slip. Jon From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 22:18:38 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 22:18:38 -0500 Subject: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) In-Reply-To: <5716F0C0.4000904@pico-systems.com> References: <5716F0C0.4000904@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Hey, I'm always ready to learn.. One 'trick' I was taught, was to put a quart of ATF into an auto engine that was down a quart of oil, and ready for a change. Claim was that it had superior detergent / surfactant qualities, and would clean things up for the change. You were supposed to run it for 15-20 minutes or whatever, then drain the pan. I never tried it. Also had heard similar 'tricks' that involved adding diesel fuel to the crankcase prior to oil change. Never tried that one, either. I suspect a lot of these hacks originated in the days prior to detergent oils, when it was understood that sludge would build up inside the motor without intervention. Same thing with old (30s-50s) motor bikes, where one was warned off of ever using a detergent oil - as opposed to 30W-50W oils - as it might break loose all the sludge and plug up the oil system, starving the bearing surfaces. Heck if I know. On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 04/19/2016 08:29 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> ATF.. ATF?!?!? Heresy, heresy!! >> >> Not. >> >> I suppose it depends what we're talking about, Type F or the various >> grades >> of Dexron. But that's what I have in my pump oiler can. Per my >> understanding, it's essentially a highly-refined 20W oil with a series of >> additives that allow it to serve double-duty as the hydraulic working >> fluid >> in torque converters and automatic transmission clutches. >> >> >> Not so sure about that, but maybe it is all in the additives. it seems > like typical ATF is a LOT thinner than 20W oil. Also, it is pretty well > known that if you put a complete fill of ATF into an engine crankcase, the > rings will last about 10 miles before the compression goes to zero. > > If you put engine oil in the transmission, then the clutches will slip. > > Jon > From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 23:27:05 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 23:27:05 -0500 Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits Message-ID: I heard someone comment that there is some issue with game boy cartridges now and was recommending not buying those anymore. I'm not sure of what the details were.. maybe a battery issue? I think if they're bad they won't boot. ?Anyone know the real details?? From drb at msu.edu Tue Apr 19 23:47:08 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 00:47:08 -0400 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:32:34 -0700.) References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20160420044708.2F373A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > It's a little costly for the amount of need that we have. What do > you think of the Klom imitation of it? I've got one of the Klom imitations coming. Report to follow... If it helps anyone, I can produce Chicago double-sided keys from code. This sort of thing: http://www.repeater-builder.com/keyspage/photos/key-2007.jpg De From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 23:22:56 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 00:22:56 -0400 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0935C60DC8A744AAA735CF69990AC9AE@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:24 PM Subject: Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) > On Apr 19, 2016, at 4:15 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > I finally found my micrometer; is there a cross-reference of pin # vs. depth or just a list of standard depths for ACE keys somewhere? Look here, http://www.hpcworld.com/mobile/km/pocketcutup/index.html, click "See the manual", it's at the bottom of the first page. ---------------- Well, that doesn't quite match Fred's numbers below, but close enough: http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_and_Depth > The depths by number are: > 1 - 0.0155" > 2 - 0.0310" > 3 - 0.0465" > 4 - 0.0620" > 5 - 0.0775" > 6 - 0.093" > 7 - 0.1085" > 8 - 0.1240" So, assuming I did it right the code for the XX4306 key used in some Cromemco models is 5514457; anybody else want to confirm that? m From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 04:02:34 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:02:34 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19 April 2016 at 21:37, Swift Griggs wrote: > Here's my top 3 weirdest devices I've ever sent email through, just for fun: > > 1. The AlphaSmart "Dana" which was a strange laptop-like device which ran > PalmOS. The email client was Eudora for PalmOS. I sort of wanted one of them. Interesting device. > 2. Sony eVilla BeIA appliance using some kind of (crappy) built-in mail > application. Ahh, BeIA -- great idea, but both too late and too early, a neat trick. > 3. Sharp Wizard handheld organizer over a serial TTY connected to a 386/SX > with optional math co-processor installed so it could run ... Xenix. > Logged in via simple built-in vt100 terminal app on the wizard at 2400 > BPS to the Unix box. Used 'elm' to send the mail. I am looking at doing something similar with a Z88 & Raspberry Pi. :-/ > That Sharp Wizard was a helluva organizer for it's time. The main feature > was that it takes AAA batteries and thus I was actually able to afford to > run the thing in college by getting rechargables. It had a nice keyboard > and the display was readable in the sunlight, too. No backlight, though. Sounds a bit like a Psion Series 3* or 5* -- both ran for a month+ on a pair of AAs and had unsurpassed functionality. The former for its time, the latter, in some ways, still today. Which model of Wizard? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 04:04:09 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:04:09 +0200 Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19 April 2016 at 20:58, Swift Griggs wrote: > >> 12 i860s to run the graphics! How absurd! > > Those processors showed up in the weirdest places. I remember seeing them > on DEC SCSI controllers quite a bit, too. Intel's effort at RISC. Didn't go so well for them, but did inspire the name of Windows NT and was the original host platform for the then-new OS. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jon at jonworld.com Wed Apr 20 04:12:36 2016 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:12:36 +0200 Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Intel's effort at RISC. Didn't go so well for them, but did inspire > the name of Windows NT and was the original host platform for the > then-new OS. > The i860 was a neat little bugger. There was an iPSC/860 done by Intel which would be a fun box to save/rescue/run with its own variation of Unix. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 20 04:52:37 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:52:37 +0100 Subject: Bulletin Repeat - Not sure previous version went OK Message-ID: <57175165.1000104@btinternet.com> Hi Guys With all of my PDP-8 range (8/e A + B, /f /m /i and /L either in or about to be in production. Its time to turn to that other collectors favorite the PDP-11. As in the past I like to let the list know how its going. Its just the same as somebody restoring a system and sharing the progress. Being a visual product some of what I would like to share is pictorial. The list does not (and should not ) allow attachments. Therefore I have to interact with individual members and often get help in the form of scans and pictures. Sometimes there are items that are general and anybody who was interested in panels of any sort might want. I hate scatter gun mail so I'm going to invite people to email me and ask to join the mailing list for panels to get mail that needs attachments but still do the usual bulletins via the list. I might even email to ask people if they would like to join. Evan is going to fix my screwed up registration on the VCF Site and I'll put bulletins there as well. So email me with which PDP-11 front panels you want to see produced and I'll try and do a priority list. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 20 06:24:34 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:24:34 +0100 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> On 20/04/2016 10:02, Liam Proven wrote: > On 19 April 2016 at 21:37, Swift Griggs wrote: >> Here's my top 3 weirdest devices I've ever sent email through, just for fun: >> >> 1. The AlphaSmart "Dana" which was a strange laptop-like device which ran >> PalmOS. The email client was Eudora for PalmOS. > I sort of wanted one of them. Interesting device. > >> 2. Sony eVilla BeIA appliance using some kind of (crappy) built-in mail >> application. > Ahh, BeIA -- great idea, but both too late and too early, a neat trick. > >> 3. Sharp Wizard handheld organizer over a serial TTY connected to a 386/SX >> with optional math co-processor installed so it could run ... Xenix. >> Logged in via simple built-in vt100 terminal app on the wizard at 2400 >> BPS to the Unix box. Used 'elm' to send the mail. > I am looking at doing something similar with a Z88 & Raspberry Pi. :-/ > >> That Sharp Wizard was a helluva organizer for it's time. The main feature >> was that it takes AAA batteries and thus I was actually able to afford to >> run the thing in college by getting rechargables. It had a nice keyboard >> and the display was readable in the sunlight, too. No backlight, though. > Sounds a bit like a Psion Series 3* or 5* -- both ran for a month+ on > a pair of AAs and had unsurpassed functionality. The former for its > time, the latter, in some ways, still today. > > Which model of Wizard? > > Extreme Mailing What is the most unusual place you have sent mail from? From jon at jonworld.com Wed Apr 20 06:32:01 2016 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 13:32:01 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Rod Smallwood < rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: > Extreme Mailing > > What is the most unusual place you have sent mail from? > I think we need to restrict this to specific dates/eras/times -- these days we have wi-fi enabled jet airliners and cruise ships and can send/receive e-mail from anywhere, satellite communications, etc. Using something like "dtmail" on a Sparc 10 in 2016 on a daily basis, or VMS MAIL on a MicroVax would be an anachronism equal to hooking up a KayPro luggable to an acoustic coupler over a cellular modem in the 1980s in the back of your A-Team van ;) From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Apr 20 07:11:55 2016 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:11:55 -0500 Subject: Imlac PDS-1 source code In-Reply-To: <20160419192534.GA1774@loomcom.com> References: <20160419192534.GA1774@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <5717720B.3020201@ubanproductions.com> I would like a copy of the scan. Best, Tom Uban On 4/19/16 2:25 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > While arranging some shelves, I came across an Imlac PDS-1 printset > that I rescued from somewhere (I don't remember where) > > What I didn't realize was that in the back of the printset was some > assembler source code for David Bloodgood's "Imlac terminal emulator > program". > > Photos here: > > http://imgur.com/a/QrV4T > > I haven't found this online. Is it interesting to anyone? Would anyone > like a scan of it? > > -Seth > From d235j.1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 07:23:50 2016 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:23:50 -0400 Subject: Microscience HH-1090 MFM hard disk manuals In-Reply-To: <57167D00.9090501@philpem.me.uk> References: <57167D00.9090501@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4375CC6C-1857-4744-94CA-47E7FF24E573@gmail.com> > Does anyone happen to have any manuals kicking around for Microscience > MFM hard disk drives? I'd love to see documentation for any model of drive from Microscience ? technical documentation definitely being better. These drives appear fairly obscure and quite high-tech for their time. I dug pretty deep and couldn't find as much as a user manual for one. There are a few interesting patents but that's about it. David From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 20 07:25:33 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:25:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Imlac PDS-1 source code Message-ID: <20160420122533.6B5E918C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > I have an Imlac PDS-1D ... > There's precious little software out there for this thing Did a copy of Mazewar for the Imlac survive? There are partal file system dumps of some of the MIT machines, but IIRC Mazewar was only on MIT-DM, and I'm not sure its files are still accessible (although they will be on backup tape at MIT). Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 20 07:30:53 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H960 leveling feet Message-ID: <20160420123053.6B4B018C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I also need some of the larger main leveling feet, but I haven't been > able (yet) to find any. The threaded part is 7/16"-14 So I goofed. They are actually 1/2"-13. (I have no idea how I blew that one. I _thought_ I tried them with a known nut, but clearly something went wrong.) Anyway, Vlier makes them, too - FSE306S. Like the smaller ones for the extensions, the pad on the bottom is somewhat wider than on the DEC originals, but they still work fine. As before, if anyone Europe/etc needs some, and they aren't available locally, let me know. Noel From kula at tproa.net Wed Apr 20 08:13:19 2016 From: kula at tproa.net (Thomas Kula) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:13:19 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160420131319.GQ24228@keymaster.tproa.net> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 01:37:55PM -0600, Swift Griggs wrote: > > Here's my top 3 weirdest devices I've ever sent email through, just for fun: > Back in my college days, I witnessed a friend use a TI-92 with a crude terminal emulator and a TI-Link cable wired to the serial port on the campus Rolm system phone in his room connect to the campus VAX/VMS system and send an email. Unfortunately, the terminal emulator didn't have support for sending the ^Z character the editor required to close the file, so we had to switch the cable to a conventional editor to send that, but I feel we gave it the good ole college try. The same phone system allowed you to dial random phones, so another bored evening when we probably should have been studying we spent 20 minutes dialing the room phone and hissing into it when we picked up --- a different friend managed to make the thing spit out CONNECT 1200.... That VAX, by the way, ended up in my garage about three years after I graduated, and it made it from central Iowa through the years to now sitting about 25 feet from me at my current job in Manhattan. -- Thomas L. Kula | kula at tproa.net | http://kula.tproa.net/ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Apr 20 08:57:32 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:57:32 -0400 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-20 5:12 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Intel's effort at RISC. Didn't go so well for them, but did inspire >> the name of Windows NT and was the original host platform for the >> then-new OS. >> > > The i860 was a neat little bugger. There was an iPSC/860 done by Intel > which would be a fun box to save/rescue/run with its own variation of Unix. > There were some coprocessor cards that used it as well - I see them on ebay periodically. I think the YARC used AMD 29K... was there an i860/i960 version as well? I'm changing the subject because the subject of RISC coprocessor boards has already been interesting to me; I owned the NuBus Levco Translink II (for Mac II family) with four TRAM slots for transputers. Also going to mention the BBC Tube coprocessor here. Which had an ARM version, iirc. --Toby From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 20 09:37:51 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage computer ads... Message-ID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T1IYdjOpYE The video is an hour long, but you can skip around. It includes ads for machines like the ITT Xtra, IBM PC Jr, etc. The Hayes Smartmodem ad is just atrocious. :) There's even ads for IOMega drives and the Promethus Pro Modem... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 20 09:27:59 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:27:59 +0100 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/04/2016 14:57, Toby Thain wrote: > I'm changing the subject because the subject of RISC coprocessor boards > has already been interesting to me; I owned the NuBus Levco Translink II > (for Mac II family) with four TRAM slots for transputers. > > Also going to mention the BBC Tube coprocessor here. Which had an ARM > version, iirc. It did indeed - I have one. Also a couple of 6502 CoPros, a 65C102, a 32016 and a pair of Z80s, which were nice in their day. -- Pete From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 09:47:17 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:47:17 -0500 Subject: Vintage computer ads... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:37 AM, geneb wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T1IYdjOpYE > > The video is an hour long, but you can skip around. It includes ads for > machines like the ITT Xtra, IBM PC Jr, etc. The Hayes Smartmodem ad is > just atrocious. :) There's even ads for IOMega drives and the Promethus > Pro Modem... > > Is that Bryan Cranston a la Breaking Bad in that video??? Sure looks like him. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 09:54:32 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:54:32 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL In-Reply-To: <5716B631.9050207@gmail.com> References: <5716B631.9050207@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ditto. I do like mine. Extra TRAM option, 384MB of RAM, 2x4GB disks. It > gets a little toasty (but it's got the feet for standing it up on its > side, and I think that helps a little with the heat dissipation - plus it > looks a lot nicer! :-) I hope you have the deskside stand for it. That made them look a bit cooler. Hmm. It's the kind of thing that could probably be 3D printed these days, too. While I'm rambling about 3D printing, I've often speculated that with a not-insignificant investment of time, one could built new skins for the Indy on some larger 3D printers. > I'm not sure if there was a 'correct' display/keyboard/rodent setup on > those machines? Mine came with a white keyboard and mouse but granite > display, and I assume that they should really all be matched. Granite in most cases. The Indigo2 had a longer run than many SGI models. Plus, since there was also a lot of differentiation in models (everything from XL24 graphics to Maximum IMPACT graphics, too), there might have been more than one. I remember seeing a few show up brand-new (deep-purple Max Impact models) and they came with 21" Trinitron SGI re-branded monitors with granite PS/2 keyboard and a granite PS/2 mouse. > Maya would be nice (and if I remember right there's evidence that it was > originally accessible from that machine, but via a long-gone network > drive), but I assume that period versions are difficult to get hold of. Difficult, but not impossible. Maya 6.5 was the last version made for the SGI. You can buy media on Ebay. I note that the last auction (for a set of 6.0 disks) was in Feb 2016. So, it seems possible. However, I got mine from purchasing an O2 with Maya 4.x on it. Just about any interesting commercial app/tool is going to have flexlm copy protection, hence the large amount of Irix warez & cracks you'll notice on p2p networks like eMule. -Swift From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Apr 20 10:00:32 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:00:32 -0400 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-20 10:27 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 20/04/2016 14:57, Toby Thain wrote: > >> I'm changing the subject because the subject of RISC coprocessor boards >> has already been interesting to me; I owned the NuBus Levco Translink II >> (for Mac II family) with four TRAM slots for transputers. >> >> Also going to mention the BBC Tube coprocessor here. Which had an ARM >> version, iirc. > > It did indeed - I have one. Also a couple of 6502 CoPros, a 65C102, a > 32016 and a pair of Z80s, which were nice in their day. > Nice collection. I'd forgotten about the 32016! What software ran on these respective processors? My high school had a BBC (Master?) with Z80 Tube in an OEM chassis with integrated keyboard and colour terminal. It mainly ran Turbo Pascal under CP/M, iirc. --Toby From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Apr 20 10:27:11 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:27:11 -0500 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <57179FCF.6050708@pico-systems.com> On 04/20/2016 10:00 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-04-20 10:27 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 20/04/2016 14:57, Toby Thain wrote: >> >>> I'm changing the subject because the subject of RISC >>> coprocessor boards >>> has already been interesting to me; I owned the NuBus >>> Levco Translink II >>> (for Mac II family) with four TRAM slots for transputers. >>> >>> Also going to mention the BBC Tube coprocessor here. >>> Which had an ARM >>> version, iirc. >> >> It did indeed - I have one. Also a couple of 6502 >> CoPros, a 65C102, a >> 32016 and a pair of Z80s, which were nice in their day. >> > > Nice collection. I'd forgotten about the 32016! What > software ran on these respective processors? > I got a group at work to buy a Logical Microcomputer Co. 32016-based system, it originally came with GENIX, I think. They later changed to XENIX. (I may have the order of those backwards.) I cloned the whole system on wire-wrap boards, and it actually WORKED! My memory was probably a bit slow, and the system was a DOG!!! I was also not a Unix guru, by any means, so a lot of stuff was painful. But, compared to my Z-80/S-100 system, it was so slow as to be a real pain in the neck. So, there were several versions of Unix derivatives for the 32016 family. Nat Semi also had cross compilers that ran on the VAX and would compile C, FORTRAN, Pascal and assembly source into binary that you could download onto their development boards. We built a multiprocessor system that added on to a VAX 11/780. But, it was too cumbersome for our physicists to go through all that hassle, and we had no debugging facility in that attached processor mode. (I could have hacked some kind of error message queue to the system.) Jon Jon From jason at textfiles.com Wed Apr 20 10:30:36 2016 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:30:36 -0400 Subject: Vintage computer ads... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It would be nice if you linked to where you saw him in the video, time-wise. Here's what Bryan Cranston looked like in 1984, the time this video came out. http://starcasm.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/bryancranston.jpg He was definitely working in ads and plays at the time. On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:37 AM, geneb wrote: > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T1IYdjOpYE > > > > The video is an hour long, but you can skip around. It includes ads for > > machines like the ITT Xtra, IBM PC Jr, etc. The Hayes Smartmodem ad is > > just atrocious. :) There's even ads for IOMega drives and the Promethus > > Pro Modem... > > > > > Is that Bryan Cranston a la Breaking Bad in that video??? Sure looks like > him. > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 20 10:32:24 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 16:32:24 +0100 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/04/2016 16:00, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-04-20 10:27 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> It did indeed - I have one. Also a couple of 6502 CoPros, a 65C102, a >> 32016 and a pair of Z80s, which were nice in their day. > > Nice collection. I'd forgotten about the 32016! What software ran on > these respective processors? There was a collection of "scientific" software for the 32016 - things like Spice, some maths software, and assorted CAD stuff; basically the software licensed for the 32016 ACW and the Master Scientific, which came later. The Z80 CoPro ran CP/M - real licensed CP/M 2.2, not the bastardised often-not-compatible "CPN" lookalike offered by Torch, and came with GEM and various office software. The ARM CoPro originally had little software beyond TWIN (the Two Window Editor), assembler, BASIC, and utilities. The 6502 variants - including the 65C102 that was used for the Master Turbo - just ran whatever you'd otherwise have on the Beeb itself, albeit with a faster clock, larger memory space, and in some cases a "High" version that lived right at the top of memory. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 20 10:43:29 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:43:29 -0400 Subject: H960 leveling feet In-Reply-To: <20160420123053.6B4B018C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160420123053.6B4B018C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8BAC79AE-640E-4A8E-91C0-3C1D17791EA5@comcast.net> > On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> I also need some of the larger main leveling feet, but I haven't been >> able (yet) to find any. The threaded part is 7/16"-14 > > So I goofed. They are actually 1/2"-13. (I have no idea how I blew that one. > I _thought_ I tried them with a known nut, but clearly something went wrong.) > > Anyway, Vlier makes them, too - FSE306S. Like the smaller ones for the > extensions, the pad on the bottom is somewhat wider than on the DEC > originals, but they still work fine. A company I often go to when I need machinery stuff for modest prices is Enco (use-enco.com). They have these things, called "leveling pads" in a number of sizes. Most have neoprene bottoms to resist skidding; some are all steel so they won't flex under load. paul From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 10:45:17 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:45:17 -0500 Subject: Vintage computer ads... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Jason Scott wrote: > It would be nice if you linked to where you saw him in the video, > time-wise. Here's what Bryan Cranston looked like in 1984, the time this > video came out. > http://starcasm.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/bryancranston.jpg > > He was definitely working in ads and plays at the time. > > Sorry, about 6:10. I watched it a few times before your response and I think it's not him (especially after your pic). From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Apr 20 11:04:19 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:04:19 -0700 Subject: [OT] eBay tale (Was: Re: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)) In-Reply-To: <003801d19a5e$393ac050$abb040f0$@net> References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> <571664A5.3070003@bitsavers.org> <003801d19a5e$393ac050$abb040f0$@net> Message-ID: <02A8022A-BE3E-4CF3-908E-0DD35FC89670@nf6x.net> > On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:09, Ali wrote: > > Well, eBay is killing itself slowly. Every year they make more and more > onerous and anti-buyer rules and policies. Warning: Longish anti-eBay tale inbound! Just under a year ago, both eBay and PayPal amended their Terms Of Service (TOS) to state that they and any of their associates are allowed to robo-call members for any reason, at any phone number they obtain by any means, for any reason, specifically including marketing purposes. While many argued that eBay and PayPal just had to create such terms to call members for legitimate reasons such as dealing with nonpayment and other issues, I really didn't like the new terms. The only way provided for members to opt out of the robo-calling terms was to close their accounts. I did that, and was vocal about it (not that many people heard me, though, as I'm hardly an influential person online). PayPal very quickly amended their TOS based on the very loud backlash online, but for some reason, eBay seemed to get a lot less attention online over the new TOS. Nevertheless, eBay did eventually quietly change their TOS to allow members to opt out of receiving marketing calls. So just a couple weeks ago, there was a vintage military radio item listed on eBay that I really wanted, and was having trouble finding anywhere else. With the most disagreeable TOS terms gone, I decided to join eBay again. I created a new account on a Friday, and bought that one item plus another technical manual. The first item was marked as shipped over the weekend, but the manual transaction was still in process on Monday morning. On the following Monday morning, I got an email from eBay stating that my new account was suspended, and that I would not be allowed to use eBay from that account, any other account, or any account I later create. No reason was provided. I called eBay technical support immediately, and their agent politely but firmly refused to discuss the reason for suspension. Just an apparent lifetime ban with no reason provided, and no recourse. I can only speculate about their reasoning. My former association with eBay was long and trouble-free, with well over a thousand happy transactions and a 100% positive rating in the mid to high 800s. Maybe they specifically flagged me in their database as a trouble-maker over my vocal opposition to their TOS changes, or maybe they simply have a blanket rule of "once you leave, you may never return". I have read other accounts online of people being banned for various reasons (many legitimate, of course), but then eBay would go as far as banning any other accounts with any tenuous association to the banned members in eBay's database, including banning family members, roommates, etc. eBay does have cause to protect themselves and their members from scammers, but their enforcement policies can be pretty heavy-handed in my opinion. While I am disappointed that I can apparently never buy old computer and radio items on eBay ever again, this recent experience leads me to suspect that my decision to part ways with eBay a year ago wasn't a bad idea. They may just not be folks I'd like to do business with. eBay really has single-handedly destroyed special-interest swap meets in my experience, and now I wish that we could create some viable alternative to eBay for our stuff. But they're just too big to compete with at this time. All that being said, I've gotten the impression that eBay is more anti-seller than anti-buyer. I've read a lot of accounts of sellers getting screwed over by scammy buyers, with eBay siding with the buyer every time. Coupled with accounts of PayPal seller's accounts being frozen instantly, for extended periods, with lots of money in the account, I tend to think that neither eBay nor PayPal are safe for anything but casual buying and selling with entirely disposable amounts of money. In the interest of full disclosure, this is the entire notice I received from eBay about my account suspension: > Hello greendog383, > > After reviewing your eBay account, recent activity has raised serious security concerns. As a result, we've taken the following action on your account: > > - Your eBay account has been suspended. > > - Item listings have been removed. A list of removed items is available further down in this email. > > > > You won't be able to use eBay in any way. This includes using another existing account or registering a new account. Any outstanding selling fees are due immediately, and any amounts that you haven't previously disputed will be charged to the billing method currently on file. > > > > We've taken this precaution to protect our members while we make sure that the activity doesn't cause harm -- however unintentionally -- to the eBay community. > > > > We appreciate your understanding. > > Thanks, > > > > eBay > > > > Please don't reply to this message. It was sent from an address that doesn't accept incoming email. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 11:14:24 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:14:24 -0700 Subject: Imlac PDS-1 source code In-Reply-To: <20160420122533.6B5E918C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160420122533.6B5E918C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5717AAE0.8050504@gmail.com> On 4/20/16 5:25 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Josh Dersch > > > I have an Imlac PDS-1D ... > > There's precious little software out there for this thing > > Did a copy of Mazewar for the Imlac survive? > > There are partal file system dumps of some of the MIT machines, but IIRC > Mazewar was only on MIT-DM, and I'm not sure its files are still accessible > (although they will be on backup tape at MIT). Yes, both the PDP-10 ITS MazeWar "server" code and the Imlac "client" code are out there. I was working on getting my Imlac emulator to talk to KLH10 awhile back but stalled out. I need to pick that up again. Along with about 20 other projects... - Josh > > Noel > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Apr 20 11:21:21 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:21:21 -0400 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5717AC81.1010004@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-20 11:32 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 20/04/2016 16:00, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 2016-04-20 10:27 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> It did indeed - I have one. Also a couple of 6502 CoPros, a 65C102, a >>> 32016 and a pair of Z80s, which were nice in their day. >> >> Nice collection. I'd forgotten about the 32016! What software ran on >> these respective processors? > > There was a collection of "scientific" software for the 32016 - things > like Spice, some maths software, and assorted CAD stuff; basically the > software licensed for the 32016 ACW and the Master Scientific, which > came later. The Z80 CoPro ran CP/M - real licensed CP/M 2.2, not the > bastardised often-not-compatible "CPN" lookalike offered by Torch, and Ah... Torch Turbo... that rings a bell. I think that might have been what my high school's Tube machine was. I don't remember being aware that it wasn't legit CP/M. We also had a Z80 MP/M machine in the same computer room, with two terminals, a mark/sense card reader, and high speed Lear-Siegler printer. That was the only computer at the school when I started. It was soon joined by a lab of about 20 BBC Micro Model B's. --Toby > came with GEM and various office software. The ARM CoPro originally had > little software beyond TWIN (the Two Window Editor), assembler, BASIC, > and utilities. The 6502 variants - including the 65C102 that was used > for the Master Turbo - just ran whatever you'd otherwise have on the > Beeb itself, albeit with a faster clock, larger memory space, and in > some cases a "High" version that lived right at the top of memory. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 20 11:26:31 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT] eBay tale (Was: Re: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)) In-Reply-To: <02A8022A-BE3E-4CF3-908E-0DD35FC89670@nf6x.net> References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> <571664A5.3070003@bitsavers.org> <003801d19a5e$393ac050$abb040f0$@net> <02A8022A-BE3E-4CF3-908E-0DD35FC89670@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Apr 2016, Mark J. Blair wrote: > accounts. I did that, and was vocal about it (not that many people heard > me, though, as I'm hardly an influential person online). > PayPal very quickly amended their TOS based on the very loud backlash > online, Sounds as though you are more influential than you realize. > All that being said, I've gotten the impression that eBay is more > anti-seller than anti-buyer. An assumption that the situation is eBay+sellers V buyers, or eBay+buyers V sellers is faulty. It is eBay V buyers+sellers. Another obvious example of that was during the decline of the West Coast Computer Faire. Previously, at "closing time", all attendees were to leave immediately, but show staff and exhibitors would remain for about an hour, to permit shutting exhibits down, putting stuff away, locking up, etc. Without warning, the policy was changed to: at "closing time", attendees AND exhibitors must leave immediately, and only show management permitted in the hall. Exhibitors were no longer allowed to enter even minutes before "opening time". (setup and shutdown must be done DURING attendee presence) At SOG, we presented Jim Warren with a pair of skates and told him that he had to come back out of retirement. > account, I tend to think that neither eBay nor PayPal are safe for > anything but casual buying and selling with entirely disposable amounts > of money. quite true. There are reasons for certain policies, but neither provide reasonable recourse in the event of erroneous application. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From sales at elecplus.com Wed Apr 20 11:32:25 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:32:25 -0500 Subject: [OT] eBay tale (Was: Re: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)) In-Reply-To: <02A8022A-BE3E-4CF3-908E-0DD35FC89670@nf6x.net> References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> <571664A5.3070003@bitsavers.org> <003801d19a5e$393ac050$abb040f0$@net> <02A8022A-BE3E-4CF3-908E-0DD35FC89670@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <019c01d19b22$396dde30$ac499a90$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. Blair Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:04 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: [OT] eBay tale (Was: Re: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)) > On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:09, Ali wrote: > > Well, eBay is killing itself slowly. Every year they make more and > more onerous and anti-buyer rules and policies. > Warning: Longish anti-eBay tale inbound! > eBay really has single-handedly destroyed special-interest swap meets in my experience, and now I wish that we could create some viable alternative > to eBay for our stuff. But they're just too big to compete with at this time. www.zeescripts.com sells an eBay clone for $57, or a multi-vendor ecommerce for $197. Both are PHP and MySQL based. It is a one-time fee, and all code is given, so you can modify it to suit your needs. Several templates, including responsive templates, are included. If Jay would host the eBay clone on his servers, I would fork over the $57. We don't really need a huge following, but it would grow very quickly, once people from the various forums and lists started telling their members about it. Perhaps someone with knowledge in these areas would have the time to look into this? Cindy Croxton From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Apr 20 11:37:57 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:37:57 -0700 Subject: [OT] eBay tale (Was: Re: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)) In-Reply-To: <019c01d19b22$396dde30$ac499a90$@com> References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> <571664A5.3070003@bitsavers.org> <003801d19a5e$393ac050$abb040f0$@net> <02A8022A-BE3E-4CF3-908E-0DD35FC89670@nf6x.net> <019c01d19b22$396dde30$ac499a90$@com> Message-ID: <98F604E8-0BF1-4B76-ADA1-712218FB125C@nf6x.net> > On Apr 20, 2016, at 09:32, Electronics Plus wrote: > If Jay would host the eBay clone on his servers, I would fork over the $57. > We don't really need a huge following, but it would grow very quickly, once > people from the various forums and lists started telling their members about > it. I would happily donate that kind of money to create something of value to us. I don't think it would work out well, though, for one reason: The thing that makes eBay the venue of choice is that it is well-known as the place to sell oddball stuff that you might find in your dear, departed uncle's attic. So, when folks outside of our niche hobbies want to get rid of things that would interest us, eBay is where they go because eBay is what they know. A private special-interest eBay-clone might still be worth investigation as a convenient venue for those of us who are already part of the club to swap our toys, but I don't think it'll replace eBay as a place for new items to find their way back into the hands of dedicated collectors any time soon. Thoughts? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 20 11:44:23 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:44:23 -0400 Subject: [OT] eBay tale (Was: Re: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)) In-Reply-To: <98F604E8-0BF1-4B76-ADA1-712218FB125C@nf6x.net> References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> <571664A5.3070003@bitsavers.org> <003801d19a5e$393ac050$abb040f0$@net> <02A8022A-BE3E-4CF3-908E-0DD35FC89670@nf6x.net> <019c01d19b22$396dde30$ac499a90$@com> <98F604E8-0BF1-4B76-ADA1-712218FB125C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <40A68F5B-AB92-4DC5-A7B7-689B05612EA5@comcast.net> > On Apr 20, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >> On Apr 20, 2016, at 09:32, Electronics Plus wrote: >> If Jay would host the eBay clone on his servers, I would fork over the $57. >> We don't really need a huge following, but it would grow very quickly, once >> people from the various forums and lists started telling their members about >> it. > > I would happily donate that kind of money to create something of value to us. I don't think it would work out well, though, for one reason: The thing that makes eBay the venue of choice is that it is well-known as the place to sell oddball stuff that you might find in your dear, departed uncle's attic. So, when folks outside of our niche hobbies want to get rid of things that would interest us, eBay is where they go because eBay is what they know. That sounds right. Then again, eBay seems to be going out of its way to alienate large numbers of people. In the case discussed here, it may be a one-off change. But in other areas it's deliberate broad policy. Ask gun collectors/owners about eBay policies some time. A non-PC eBay competitor could potentially win a large audience. paul From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Apr 20 11:47:37 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 18:47:37 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 01:32:01PM +0200, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Rod Smallwood < > rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: > > > Extreme Mailing > > > > What is the most unusual place you have sent mail from? > > > > I think we need to restrict this to specific dates/eras/times -- these days > we have wi-fi enabled jet airliners and cruise ships and can send/receive > e-mail from anywhere, satellite communications, etc. > > Using something like "dtmail" on a Sparc 10 in 2016 on a daily basis, or > VMS MAIL on a MicroVax would be an anachronism equal to hooking up a KayPro > luggable to an acoustic coupler over a cellular modem in the 1980s in the > back of your A-Team van ;) For remote mailing I prefer i vt terminal and a microwave link: https://youtu.be/r6NuDcemRsM /P From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Apr 20 11:48:29 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:48:29 -0700 Subject: [OT] eBay tale (Was: Re: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)) In-Reply-To: <98F604E8-0BF1-4B76-ADA1-712218FB125C@nf6x.net> References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> <571664A5.3070003@bitsavers.org> <003801d19a5e$393ac050$abb040f0$@net> <02A8022A-BE3E-4CF3-908E-0DD35FC89670@nf6x.net> <019c01d19b22$396dde30$ac499a90$@com> <98F604E8-0BF1-4B76-ADA1-712218FB125C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <000f01d19b24$784068b0$68c13a10$@net> > A private special-interest eBay-clone might still be worth > investigation as a convenient venue for those of us who are already > part of the club to swap our toys, but I don't think it'll replace eBay > as a place for new items to find their way back into the hands of > dedicated collectors any time soon. > Mark, Like you said what makes eBay work is it is big. So sellers (i.e. actual merchants who want to make a living) who want to get the most money for something want the biggest exposure will go to eBay. eBay lets them sell their SB card to some guy in SE Asia for ridiculous amounts of money (anybody seen $100 KB and mouse auctions lately???). Honestly, I don't think we need anything fancy to sell. We could simply start another mailing list and people could post items for sale w/ asking prices and negotiations can be done privately over email. Easy peasy. What do you think? -Ali From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Apr 20 11:50:15 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:50:15 -0700 Subject: [OT] eBay tale (Was: Re: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)) In-Reply-To: <40A68F5B-AB92-4DC5-A7B7-689B05612EA5@comcast.net> References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> <571664A5.3070003@bitsavers.org> <003801d19a5e$393ac050$abb040f0$@net> <02A8022A-BE3E-4CF3-908E-0DD35FC89670@nf6x.net> <019c01d19b22$396dde30$ac499a90$@com> <98F604E8-0BF1-4B76-ADA1-712218FB125C@nf6x.net> <40A68F5B-AB92-4DC5-A7B7-689B05612EA5@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1B3A26FF-DB9D-4DA6-A01C-2D54C31E40AD@nf6x.net> > On Apr 20, 2016, at 09:44, Paul Koning wrote: > That sounds right. Then again, eBay seems to be going out of its way to alienate large numbers of people. In the case discussed here, it may be a one-off change. But in other areas it's deliberate broad policy. Ask gun collectors/owners about eBay policies some time. As a gun collector/owner, let me go ask myself... Boy, did I just get an earful! :) > A non-PC eBay competitor could potentially win a large audience. Like gunbroker.com, for example. I think that venue has been pretty successful. But it also has a much larger target market than vintage computer collectors, I think, and it's dealing with items that eBay entirely forbids, thus greatly reducing the amount of healthy (?) competition from eBay. In our specific situation here, eBay is just fine with our items of interest being sold on eBay, but they simply annoy some (many? most? few? just the cantankerous ones?) of us enough that we wish there was a better venue. Whether we can make a viable alternate venue seems doubtful to me, but I'll participate if we give it a try. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From js at cimmeri.com Wed Apr 20 11:52:08 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:52:08 -0500 Subject: [OT] eBay tale (Was: Re: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)) In-Reply-To: <02A8022A-BE3E-4CF3-908E-0DD35FC89670@nf6x.net> References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> <571664A5.3070003@bitsavers.org> <003801d19a5e$393ac050$abb040f0$@net> <02A8022A-BE3E-4CF3-908E-0DD35FC89670@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5717B3B8.1030002@cimmeri.com> On 4/20/2016 11:04 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:09, Ali wrote: >> >> Well, eBay is killing itself slowly. Every year they make more and more >> onerous and anti-buyer rules and policies. > Warning: Longish anti-eBay tale inbound! > > ... While I am disappointed that I can apparently never buy old computer and radio items on eBay ever again That situation is indeed nuts. But, on the bright side, if you only use eBay rarely, just have a relative or friend allow you to borrow their account when needed. - J. From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Apr 20 11:52:50 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:52:50 -0700 Subject: [OT] eBay tale (Was: Re: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)) In-Reply-To: <000f01d19b24$784068b0$68c13a10$@net> References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> <571664A5.3070003@bitsavers.org> <003801d19a5e$393ac050$abb040f0$@net> <02A8022A-BE3E-4CF3-908E-0DD35FC89670@nf6x.net> <019c01d19b22$396dde30$ac499a90$@com> <98F604E8-0BF1-4B76-ADA1-712218FB125C@nf6x.net> <000f01d19b24$784068b0$68c13a10$@net> Message-ID: <8357494C-775B-4BC4-B7B4-DFF7A91EA01F@nf6x.net> > On Apr 20, 2016, at 09:48, Ali wrote: > > Honestly, I don't think we need anything fancy to sell. We could simply > start another mailing list and people could post items for sale w/ asking > prices and negotiations can be done privately over email. Easy peasy. What > do you think? Well, we already have this list and the marketplace sub-forums over at VCF. I don't necessarily see the need for yet another venue unless we're going to make a real effort to bring in buyers and sellers who are not already well-connected in our hobby, like random non-computer-interested folks selling off dear departed Dad's old C64. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Apr 20 11:54:11 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:54:11 -0700 Subject: [OT] eBay tale (Was: Re: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)) In-Reply-To: <5717B3B8.1030002@cimmeri.com> References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> <571664A5.3070003@bitsavers.org> <003801d19a5e$393ac050$abb040f0$@net> <02A8022A-BE3E-4CF3-908E-0DD35FC89670@nf6x.net> <5717B3B8.1030002@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <7A71EF84-FAA6-403D-8DBF-86F8059FB7C8@nf6x.net> > On Apr 20, 2016, at 09:52, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > That situation is indeed nuts. But, on the bright side, if you only use eBay rarely, just have a relative or friend allow you to borrow their account when needed. I could probably ask my dad to buy individual things for me. I'm just concerned that if eBay manages to connect us together in their database, then they'll ban my dad. Maybe I should pick a frenemy to do my straw purchases, instead? :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 11:55:25 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:55:25 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Apr 2016, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > For remote mailing I prefer i vt terminal and a microwave link: > https://youtu.be/r6NuDcemRsM Uhhh.... brother. If this was a contest, you just won. :-) -Swift From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Apr 20 12:02:19 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:02:19 -0700 Subject: [OT] eBay tale (Was: Re: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)) In-Reply-To: <8357494C-775B-4BC4-B7B4-DFF7A91EA01F@nf6x.net> References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> <571664A5.3070003@bitsavers.org> <003801d19a5e$393ac050$abb040f0$@net> <02A8022A-BE3E-4CF3-908E-0DD35FC89670@nf6x.net> <019c01d19b22$396dde30$ac499a90$@com> <98F604E8-0BF1-4B76-ADA1-712218FB125C@nf6x.net> <000f01d19b24$784068b0$68c13a10$@net> <8357494C-775B-4BC4-B7B4-DFF7A91EA01F@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <002401d19b26$66817e00$33847a00$@net> > Well, we already have this list and the marketplace sub-forums over at > VCF. I don't necessarily see the need for yet another venue unless > we're going to make a real effort to bring in buyers and sellers who > are not already well-connected in our hobby, like random non-computer- > interested folks selling off dear departed Dad's old C64. True, and maybe we should all make a concentrated effort on the marketplace (the actual marketplace not the subforum on the VCF) - but no matter what we do we will never get the guy "selling off dear departed Dad's old C64" because he thinks he has found his ticket to retirement. That is why eBay's huge reach will always attract those guys. At best we get the bleep bleeps who come on the forum asking "how much something is worth?" to be never heard of or to see it listed on eBay for huge amounts. That is why every time I see one of those threads I simply reply "FREE + actual cost of S&H". -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Apr 20 12:04:34 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:04:34 -0700 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <002501d19b26$b70e3840$252aa8c0$@net> > >> I'm changing the subject because the subject of RISC coprocessor > >> boards has already been interesting to me; I owned the NuBus Levco > >> Translink II (for Mac II family) with four TRAM slots for > transputers. > >> I never had much run in with these kinds of boards as they were geared toward very specific markets. However, the Intel i860 and i960 did make it into some consumer level boards. I have a MCA SCSI RAID Controller somewhere that uses an i960 for coprocessing... Of course that may be a bit too new for CCtalk.... From sales at elecplus.com Wed Apr 20 12:15:09 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:15:09 -0500 Subject: [OT] Alternatives to eBay Message-ID: <01ee01d19b28$313cf290$93b6d7b0$@com> I have spent over 100 hours looking for viable alternatives to selling computer stuff. Vintage does not have its own place. Bonanza.com is gaining popularity, but it is not really IT or electronics oriented. Pricewatch.com and similar sites only deal in reasonably current equipment. VCF does have a marketplace section, but (and please don't take offense) it is so rudimentary, and the listings are so outdated, that is does not seem to be of much use. How do you find what is still available? True auction or ecommerce software would eliminate stale WTB and WTS listings. There are many free places to send XML product lists to be added to their comparison shopping engines, and all of those are very well indexed by Google. If you make it easy for people to see that it is an open place to buy and sell, 1 page registration, etc., then it will probably grow quite well. If you really want it to grow, you can get free press releases with many of the computer related online magazines and communities. If you don't try it, you will never know J Thoughts? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Apr 20 12:28:20 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 17:28:20 +0000 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <002501d19b26$b70e3840$252aa8c0$@net> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au>,<002501d19b26$b70e3840$252aa8c0$@net> Message-ID: There was a Harris RTX-2000 based accelerator card around the 80386 time period. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ali Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 10:04 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX > >> I'm changing the subject because the subject of RISC coprocessor > >> boards has already been interesting to me; I owned the NuBus Levco > >> Translink II (for Mac II family) with four TRAM slots for > transputers. > >> I never had much run in with these kinds of boards as they were geared toward very specific markets. However, the Intel i860 and i960 did make it into some consumer level boards. I have a MCA SCSI RAID Controller somewhere that uses an i960 for coprocessing... Of course that may be a bit too new for CCtalk.... From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Apr 20 12:35:48 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 13:35:48 -0400 Subject: Harris RTX-2000 - Re: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <002501d19b26$b70e3840$252aa8c0$@net> Message-ID: <5717BDF4.10509@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-20 1:28 PM, dwight wrote: > There was a Harris RTX-2000 based accelerator card around > the 80386 time period. I hadn't even heard of that chip :/ Interestingly: "The RTX 2000 is specifically designed to execute the Forth language" (https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/sec4_5.html) --Toby > Dwight > > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Ali > Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 10:04 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX > >>>> I'm changing the subject because the subject of RISC coprocessor >>>> boards has already been interesting to me; I owned the NuBus Levco >>>> Translink II (for Mac II family) with four TRAM slots for >> transputers. >>>> > > I never had much run in with these kinds of boards as they were geared > toward very specific markets. However, the Intel i860 and i960 did make it > into some consumer level boards. I have a MCA SCSI RAID Controller somewhere > that uses an i960 for coprocessing... Of course that may be a bit too new > for CCtalk.... > > From ethan at 757.org Wed Apr 20 12:36:57 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 13:36:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OT] Alternatives to eBay In-Reply-To: <01ee01d19b28$313cf290$93b6d7b0$@com> References: <01ee01d19b28$313cf290$93b6d7b0$@com> Message-ID: > I have spent over 100 hours looking for viable alternatives to selling > computer stuff. Vintage does not have its own place. Bonanza.com is gaining > popularity, but it is not really IT or electronics oriented. Pricewatch.com > and similar sites only deal in reasonably current equipment. VCF does have a Craigslist is the one big eBay alternative. eBay hates craigslist, and wants it dead. I think a disgruntled employee sold his shares of CL to eBay a while ago, so eBay owns a portion of CL and tries to make life hell for them. eBay started Kijiji.com to try to take away marketshare from CL but it didn't go super far. On one hand eBay has to make money hand over fist. On the other, the sites are full of disputes between buyers and sellres. People who don't know what they are doing probably get taken often, people things by accident then want to back out, people buy things then try to say they didn't work and return other items, etc. Scammers galore. Once eBay owned paypal they could leverage that to help clear up the scamming versus the old days of money orders I guess. I don't know what would happen if you had a successful auction site using paypal. Paypal might get annoyed by all of the fraud issues and try to ban use, and moving to something like stripe or some direct ACH solution might be a mess. I'd love to see an ebay competitor tho. I have my Cray system listed on eBay, but I really have no intention of selling it through there. I just want someone who is interested to contact me via eBay and we can work it out around it. The stuff I sell on eBay is always stuff I don't care what the outcome is, I can't sell at cost or low margin and not mentally squirm. On the flip side, I've bought stuff I'd never find anywhere else through ebay, be it computers, computer parts, arcade parts, scuba diving stuff whatever.... It's been a valuable resource over the years. They just need to lower their damn prices and stop taking fees on shipping. PS - Anyone have an Oberheim Matrix 6, 6R or 1000 for sale? -- Ethan O'Toole From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 20 12:41:41 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT] eBay tale (Was: Re: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)) In-Reply-To: <002401d19b26$66817e00$33847a00$@net> References: <000001d196b8$0ccebfc0$266c3f40$@classiccmp.org> <571519FC.3000305@snarc.net> <57152394.9080704@jbrain.com> <57152CD8.9050106@snarc.net> <2F11390D-4954-4964-ACDF-A5F5F262FAFF@gmail.com> <57155BCC.9090805@snarc.net> <20160418231736.GB23508@lonesome.com> <571664A5.3070003@bitsavers.org> <003801d19a5e$393ac050$abb040f0$@net> <02A8022A-BE3E-4CF3-908E-0DD35FC89670@nf6x.net> <019c01d19b22$396dde30$ac499a90$@com> <98F604E8-0BF1-4B76-ADA1-712218FB125C@nf6x.net> <000f01d19b24$784068b0$68c13a10$@net> <8357494C-775B-4BC4-B7B4-DFF7A91EA01F@nf6x.net> <002401d19b26$66817e00$33847a00$@net> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Apr 2016, Ali wrote: > time I see one of those threads I simply reply "FREE + actual cost of S&H". Most of our crap^H^H^H^H valuables actually would call for the seller paying a chunk or all of the S&H. Reduction of that is part of what makes a flea market venue nice for getting rid of stuff that you just don't want to dumpster. From marvin at west.net Wed Apr 20 12:57:07 2016 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:57:07 -0700 Subject: [OT] eBay tale (Was: Re: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)) Message-ID: <5717C2F3.5020206@west.net> > Mark J. Blair nf6x at nf6x.net > I would happily donate that kind of money to create something of > value to us. I don't think it would work out well, though, for one > reason: The thing that makes eBay the venue of choice is that it is > well-known as the place to sell oddball stuff that you might find in > your dear, departed uncle's attic. So, when folks outside of our > niche hobbies want to get rid of things that would interest us, eBay > is where they go because eBay is what they know. > > A private special-interest eBay-clone might still be worth > investigation as a convenient venue for those of us who are already > part of the club to swap our toys, but I don't think it'll replace > eBay as a place for new items to find their way back into the hands > of dedicated collectors any time soon. > > Thoughts? I have a LOT of thoughts! My experience? I sold a computer last year and the buyer said it wasn't what he wanted, filed a SNAD claim, eBay took the money from my PayPal account, and I STILL don't have that computer back. I was putting on the US ARDF Championships and was out of internet range at the time and wasn't aware until it was too late that there was a problem. The eBay customer service dept, AKA Fraud promotion department, said it was my problem. I haven't bought or sold there since then. (I was a power seller with a 100% positive feedback rating... the buyer had zero feedback at the time.) The primary problem (as I see it) is pretty much identical to the flood of new computer manufacturers back in the mid 1970's... too many people with a great idea but no/minimal business or marketing experience to create a long term entity. Taking on eBay for a specific market (i.e. classic computers and related categories) is not difficult (simple and not easy.) But it would require an intense marketing effort that most of us are not qualified to do, i.e. we don't know what we don't know. In case some of the people here aren't aware, there was talk of a vintage computer festival some 15 years ago (guessing since I don't remember exactly.) Sellam DID something instead of just talking about it, and the first Vintage Computer Festival was held at the Fairgrounds in Pleasonton, CA. While I don't agree with all of the current VCF policies (i.e. flea market), I absolutely admire and support what Evan and his team have done with VCF over the past years. Like Sellam, they have replaced talking with doing. Eric saw a need and started the Vintage Computer marketplace some years ago, and I think it is still a great idea. The only problem to some extent was buyers... the site needed more in order to attract more people :). What would I do if it became a priority? First set up some goals with the objectives of what the outcome is to be. One of the major goals would be building a community (such as this listserver!) or trying to get a buy-in from existing communities. A second would be to set up a timeline with monthly, 1 year, 5 year, etc. goals (can't hit a target that doesn't exist.) Defining the goals could be really hard depending on who was involved. I somewhat equate this to trying to herd feral cats :). The mechanics of putting up a site to compete with eBay is relatively easy although the legal aspects would probably require a specialized attorney if it were to become a major site. From a marketing perspective, I'd want to see podcasts (or similar) with interviews of people active in our hobby. This kind of historical perspective has been lost in other areas (amateur radio comes to mind) and is worth saving for posterity. Another aspect would be working to involve youth. The primary thing would be to get something going... it will never be "right" on the first try. An interesting marketing book is "Ready, Fire, Aim" by Michael Masterson (a pseudonym for Mark Ford?) That is a good philosophy to have. And realize that most of the time, those people who can start such a venture are probably unable to grow it to a significant business. Thus I would want the involved people to take the Kolbe A Index test (about $50.00, I'm 6384) showing what peoples natural strengths are and is pretty much constant thought a persons life. Anyway, a FEW ideas on building our hobby :). Marvin From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Apr 20 13:05:50 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:05:50 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> I don't think this is particularly strange, but back in college I had UUCP running on my Amiga 1000, and I set it up to dial in to the Sun SPARCstation IPC (IIRC) sitting on the computer support help desk at UCI. I was one of the help desk staff, and had permission from the bosses to do it. I had to hack up the sendmail.cf on that system to route things properly, and back then there were no m4 macros to help out. Raw sendmail.cf hacking was a harrowing experience! I think I had my Amiga dial in to poll for email every 10-15 minutes, and I hacked the code to blink the power LED when I had new mail waiting. That way, I could tell at a glance if I had new mail even with the monitor off. One of my friends who also worked the helpdesk also dialed in the same way. The pay was nice, but the real reason I wanted the job was because of perks like a key to the machine room and access to computers unbound by such silly limitations as process and disk space quotas, or not having the root password. I could mount my own tapes and pull my own printouts off the line printer (though I'd naturally use the Imagen laser printer instead). When it came time to do some simulations of a utility-scale power transformer design for a power engineering class, I didn't need to fight over Sun 3/60s in an engineering lab like most of the other students. Nope, I ran my sims on the Convex C-240 supercomputer! They probably would have run just as fast, if not faster, on the Suns since I wasn't doing any vector math, but it was a "just because I can" sort of thing. Once, while our boss was away on vacation, my friend and I rolled a decommissioned VX-11/780 down the hallway from the machine room and crammed it into his very small office. We powered up some blowers to make it seem like it was on, and also put an unguarded DEC Correspondent on his desk, on which we typed stuff to make it look like we were trying to boot the VAX. I wish I was on shift when he arrived at work! I'm told that his reaction was delightful. Another later boss, in a different branch of the same computer support department, once got similar treatment with a TU-77 tape drive. That wasn't my doing, but I like to think I was an inspiration. Boy, do I wish I had that 11/780 and TU-77 now! I think they were slated to be sent down to Mexico or something like that. Speaking of the C-240, I personally found it very useful when I had a graveyard shift computer operator job. The machine room had its own A/C, and the main building A/C would be shut off overnight. The building A/C would turn back on at 6AM to get the computer science building ready for morning classes at 8AM. With the sudden cooling surge, the computer room temperature would plummet, right at a time when my metabolism was already pretty much shut down from the fatigue of staying up all night. When that happened, I would often curl up in a shivering fetal position on the floor right behind the C-240's power supply cabinet, in the path of its blower exhaust. I experimentally determined that was the warmest easily-accessible area in the machine room. Good times, good times. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Apr 20 14:20:10 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:20:10 -0700 Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?Re:_[OT]_eBay_tale_(Was:_Re:_flea_markets?= =?US-ASCII?Q?_(was_Re:_Vintage_Computer=0D__Festivals=3F=3F=3F))?= Message-ID: Well a online site or a fest no.matter what size requires legal advice.. set things up right from the start to protect yourself... anything that involves buying and selling invites fraud.. ? ?build it and they will come but... they are not all honest. ?Ed# Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Marvin Johnston Date: 4/20/2016 10:57 AM (GMT-08:00) To: ClassicCmp Subject: Re: [OT] eBay tale (Was: Re: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)) > Mark J. Blair nf6x at nf6x.net > I would happily donate that kind of money to create something of > value to us. I don't think it would work out well, though, for one > reason: The thing that makes eBay the venue of choice is that it is > well-known as the place to sell oddball stuff that you might find in > your dear, departed uncle's attic. So, when folks outside of our > niche hobbies want to get rid of things that would interest us, eBay > is where they go because eBay is what they know. > > A private special-interest eBay-clone might still be worth > investigation as a convenient venue for those of us who are already > part of the club to swap our toys, but I don't think it'll replace > eBay as a place for new items to find their way back into the hands > of dedicated collectors any time soon. > > Thoughts? I have a LOT of thoughts! My experience? I sold a computer last year and the buyer said it wasn't what he wanted, filed a SNAD claim, eBay took the money from my PayPal account, and I STILL don't have that computer back. I was putting on the US ARDF Championships and was out of internet range at the time and wasn't aware until it was too late that there was a problem. The eBay customer service dept, AKA Fraud promotion department, said it was my problem. I haven't bought or sold there since then. (I was a power seller with a 100% positive feedback rating... the buyer had zero feedback at the time.) The primary problem (as I see it) is pretty much identical to the flood of new computer manufacturers back in the mid 1970's... too many people with a great idea but no/minimal business or marketing experience to create a long term entity. Taking on eBay for a specific market (i.e. classic computers and related categories) is not difficult (simple and not easy.)? But it would require an intense marketing effort that most of us are not qualified to do, i.e. we don't know what we don't know. In case some of the people here aren't aware, there was talk of a vintage computer festival some 15 years ago (guessing since I don't remember exactly.) Sellam DID something instead of just talking about it, and the first Vintage Computer Festival was held at the Fairgrounds in Pleasonton, CA. While I don't agree with all of the current VCF policies (i.e. flea market), I absolutely admire and support what Evan and his team have done with VCF over the past years. Like Sellam, they have replaced talking with doing. Eric saw a need and started the Vintage Computer marketplace some years ago, and I think it is still a great idea. The only problem to some extent was buyers... the site needed more in order to attract more people :). What would I do if it became a priority? First set up some goals with the objectives of what the outcome is to be. One of the major goals would be building a community (such as this listserver!) or trying to get a buy-in from existing communities. A second would be to set up a timeline with monthly, 1 year, 5 year, etc. goals (can't hit a target that doesn't exist.) Defining the goals could be really hard depending on who was involved. I somewhat equate this to trying to herd feral cats :). The mechanics of putting up a site to compete with eBay is relatively easy although the legal aspects would probably require a specialized attorney if it were to become a major site. From a marketing perspective, I'd want to see podcasts (or similar) with interviews of people active in our hobby. This kind of historical perspective has been lost in other areas (amateur radio comes to mind) and is worth saving for posterity. Another aspect would be working to involve youth. The primary thing would be to get something going... it will never be "right" on the first try. An interesting marketing book is "Ready, Fire, Aim" by Michael Masterson (a pseudonym for Mark Ford?) That is a good philosophy to have. And realize that most of the time, those people who can start such a venture are probably unable to grow it to a significant business. Thus I would want the involved people to take the Kolbe A Index test (about $50.00, I'm 6384) showing what peoples natural strengths are and is pretty much constant thought a persons life. Anyway, a FEW ideas on building our hobby :). Marvin From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 11:25:26 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:25:26 -0700 Subject: ISO: Fujitsu M228x power supply (Josh Dersch) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5717AD76.30106@gmail.com> On 4/18/16 11:25 AM, Earl Baugh wrote: >> Another weekend acquisition is a Fujitsu M2284 SMD drive (14" platters >> under a transparent cover, what's not to love?). It's in good shape and >> was properly locked down for shipping so there's a good chance it'll >> still work with some coaxing. I'm missing the power supply, however. I >> believe this is the Fujitsu Denso B14L-0300-0018A. Anyone have one >> going spare, in any condition? > > If this is the same drive as the Sun 1's, I actually have 2 spares right > this min. > (I am waiting to find out about someone locally who has some Fujitsu drives, > which I haven't gotten model #'s from, but from description sound similar... > so was keeping them for those drives... ) > > Mine are NOS, were spares from someone who used to do field engineering > repairs on early Sun equipment. > > I might be persuaded to part with one, contact me off line.. > > Earl > Thanks, response sent off-line! - Josh From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 15:59:30 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 14:59:30 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Apr 2016, Mark J. Blair wrote: > Once, while our boss was away on vacation [...] Interesting, well written, and funny story, Mark. Thanks for that! I especially liked the part about curling up in a fetal position behind the Vax. Classic. Reminds me of the time when the neighbor shot his wife a couple times and the cops were outside my apartment in college making noise late at night. It went on and on. Plus, I guess she was wounded fairly egregiously so there were fire trucks an ambulance etc... I Just took a two-man tent and pitched it on top of a building-scale cooling grate at the church across the street, just outta view of the cops. I'm not sure how they work but it was one of those where you could look down through the grate and see a lot of running water and a huge fan. The grate was about 12'x14'; so plenty of room. I threw a light sleeping bag in the tent to keep it from lifting up and blowing around, jumped in, and crashed. The cops woke me up at about 7AM the next morning and I told them what happened. They just laughed then told me to pack up and go home. One snarky cop says: "We'll try to be more quiet next time we come out on an attempted murder call near your place. Don't forget to put out your campfire. Haha." (I didn't have a camp fire, FYI). :-) College, man... I was a bit outta control and college was mostly pointless, but least there was more to do back then than looking forward to trash-day and hoping my hair loss will slow down, hehe. -Swift From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 20 16:00:34 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 22:00:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Manual for DEC 433au In-Reply-To: <320f15182e8d3479112d2fd893ede1b2@daemon.be> References: <015301d197dd$b1f735b0$15e5a110$@ntlworld.com> <320f15182e8d3479112d2fd893ede1b2@daemon.be> Message-ID: <797211322.25757.1461186034338.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe19.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 19 April 2016 at 19:29 Laurens Vets wrote: > > > On 2016-04-16 18:07, Glen Slick wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 5:44 AM, Robert Jarratt > > wrote: > >> Anyone got the following document: DIGITAL Personal Workstation > >> System > >> Reference and Maintenance Guide > >> > > > > Only thing I managed to find so far: > > http://www.cilinder.be/docs/digitalpwsau/miatasg.zip > > > > Download and unzip that, then start at: > > miatasg\dpws_aau\Service\Aaudpwssg.htm > > > > DIGITAL Personal Workstation System Reference and Maintenance Guide > > a/au-Series > > > > It's a collection of html pages, not a single pdf manual, and not > > super friendly, but better than nothing. > > Unfortunately, I never got/found the pdf of that manual :( > > Btw, cilinder.be is my site, I only keep it in the air for the old > documentation. > Thanks for keeping that site up, even if the format isn't ideal, it is still providing a useful manual! Regards Rob From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 17:33:27 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 16:33:27 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: My first experiences with internet mail would have to qualify as the weirdest. My family gained access to the internet in 1988. We'd dial into the NMSU terminal server (my mother was a professor there) and connect from the terminal server to an S/390 running VM/ESA and do an IPL CMS to get to a reasonable shell that afforded access to e-mail, the XEDIT editor, and the Charlotte web browser. The challenge was that for the first few years, we didn't know we needed a 3270 emulator, so CMS would go into a strange mode that only somewhat worked... If you made a mistake in typing, you had to start all over. But, I ultimately figured out how to get a SLIP connection going from the terminal server and use a proper TN3270 client to access the mainframe instead of ProComm Plus. It wouldn't be until 1994 that the university allowed access to the public internet directly through SLIP or PPP. I want to set up a VM environment on Hercules to relive those times, now that I am light years more competent. -- *John P. Willis* Coherent Logic Development LLC M: 575.520.9542 O: 575.524.1034 chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com http://www.coherent-logic.com/ From drb at msu.edu Wed Apr 20 18:25:29 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 19:25:29 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:37:55 -0600.) References: Message-ID: <20160420232529.8AD48A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Here's my top 3 weirdest devices I've ever sent email through, just > for fun: Dunno if any of it is weird, but: Vintage: A Teletype 43. Did use a Sharp organizer as a terminal a few times, and did send a few messages through a Palm in the modern era. (Shut up, Palm's are _too_ modern.) De From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Apr 20 21:46:27 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 02:46:27 +0000 Subject: Harris RTX-2000 - Re: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s In-Reply-To: <5717BDF4.10509@telegraphics.com.au> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <002501d19b26$b70e3840$252aa8c0$@net> , <5717BDF4.10509@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: The RTX-2000 was an of shoot of the NC4000. Even at 10MHz, they could out compute a 40MHz 80386. One execution per clock cycle plus possibly using 3 16 bit busses in a single cycle. A 4MHz NC4000 could sort 1K 16 bit values in 19.7 milliseconds. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Toby Thain Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 10:35 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Harris RTX-2000 - Re: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s On 2016-04-20 1:28 PM, dwight wrote: > There was a Harris RTX-2000 based accelerator card around > the 80386 time period. I hadn't even heard of that chip :/ Interestingly: "The RTX 2000 is specifically designed to execute the Forth language" (https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/sec4_5.html) --Toby > Dwight > > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Ali > Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 10:04 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX > >>>> I'm changing the subject because the subject of RISC coprocessor >>>> boards has already been interesting to me; I owned the NuBus Levco >>>> Translink II (for Mac II family) with four TRAM slots for >> transputers. >>>> > > I never had much run in with these kinds of boards as they were geared > toward very specific markets. However, the Intel i860 and i960 did make it > into some consumer level boards. I have a MCA SCSI RAID Controller somewhere > that uses an i960 for coprocessing... Of course that may be a bit too new > for CCtalk.... > > From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 22:10:30 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 20:10:30 -0700 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> On 4/20/16 6:57 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-04-20 5:12 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> Intel's effort at RISC. Didn't go so well for them, but did inspire >>> the name of Windows NT and was the original host platform for the >>> then-new OS. >>> >> >> The i860 was a neat little bugger. There was an iPSC/860 done by Intel >> which would be a fun box to save/rescue/run with its own variation of >> Unix. >> > > There were some coprocessor cards that used it as well - I see them on > ebay periodically. I think the YARC used AMD 29K... was there an > i860/i960 version as well? > > I'm changing the subject because the subject of RISC coprocessor > boards has already been interesting to me; I owned the NuBus Levco > Translink II (for Mac II family) with four TRAM slots for transputers. > > Also going to mention the BBC Tube coprocessor here. Which had an ARM > version, iirc. > > --Toby > Ok, this one's from the 70s, and it's a large, external unit rather than a single board, but I have a Floating Point Systems AP-120B, essentially an array processor for fast floating point operations. There's a bit of information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FPS_AP-120B I'd love to get it running one of these days, just need +5V at 100A and a set of interface boards for a PDP-11... - Josh From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Apr 20 22:27:20 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 23:27:20 -0400 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-20 11:10 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > ... > Ok, this one's from the 70s, and it's a large, external unit rather than > a single board, but I have a Floating Point Systems AP-120B, essentially > an array processor for fast floating point operations. There's a bit of > information here: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FPS_AP-120B Impressive! I guess documentation would be quite a challenge. It seems like the sort of thing you'd want to do ray tracing on in the TRON (1983) era. I wonder if there were CGI users of it. --Toby > > I'd love to get it running one of these days, just need +5V at 100A and > a set of interface boards for a PDP-11... > > - Josh > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Apr 20 22:33:50 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 20:33:50 -0700 Subject: Harris H800 Computer Message-ID: Back when I spent a couple of years at UNLV in the late 80s, I had a class in which I was forced to use an account on a Harris H800 computer, if my memory serves me correctly. Being a BSD snob, I felt that was a terrible imposition, much like being forced to calculate compound interest on a stone-age abacus made from partially petrified dinosaur turds. *Without gloves.* Now, of course, I'm a lot more easy-going, and downright curious about things that might not have been my first choice for a computing environment. Even VMS! So, does anybody here know anything about that family of computers? I seem to recall getting a tour of the computer room once, and the two front panels of the machine were swung open to reveal two thick, mattress-like beds of twisted pair wires. That seemed nauseatingly primitive to me at the time, but now the memory seems fascinating. I also seem to remember an operator's console with two round CRTs on it, but I might have fabricated that memory from whole cloth. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From echristopherson at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 22:39:44 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 22:39:44 -0500 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160421033943.GA5265@gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016, Mark J. Blair wrote: > Back when I spent a couple of years at UNLV in the late 80s, I had a > class in which I was forced to use an account on a Harris H800 > computer, if my memory serves me correctly. Being a BSD snob, I felt > that was a terrible imposition, much like being forced to calculate > compound interest on a stone-age abacus made from partially petrified > dinosaur turds. *Without gloves.* > > Now, of course, I'm a lot more easy-going, and downright curious about > things that might not have been my first choice for a computing > environment. Even VMS! > > So, does anybody here know anything about that family of computers? I don't, but I recall seeing an ad on local craigslist for "4 full sets of working circuit boards for the Harris 800 super-mini computer, including CPU." The price was $1; not sure if that meant it was literally almost free, or if they wanted to haggle. Needless to say I didn't go for it, because I hadn't quite drunk the classiccmp Kool-Aid (you know the kind; the kind that makes you need to collect anything that sounds old) yet and knew I would get no use out of plain circuit boards without a computer for them to go in... but now I'm kicking myself. Also, my dad used to have use of a Harris mini of some kind, running Vulcan OS, where he worked. He and that place of business are long gone, so I'll probably never know what the exact setup was, but I'd like to. > I > seem to recall getting a tour of the computer room once, and the two > front panels of the machine were swung open to reveal two thick, > mattress-like beds of twisted pair wires. That seemed nauseatingly > primitive to me at the time, but now the memory seems fascinating. > > I also seem to remember an operator's console with two round CRTs on > it, but I might have fabricated that memory from whole cloth. -- Eric Christopherson From kspt.tor at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 23:05:47 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 06:05:47 +0200 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX Message-ID: On 21 April 2016 at 05:10, Josh Dersch wrote: > Ok, this one's from the 70s, and it's a large, external unit rather than a > single board, but I have a Floating Point Systems AP-120B, essentially an > array processor for fast floating point operations. There's a bit of > information here: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FPS_AP-120B > > I'd love to get it running one of these days, just need +5V at 100A and a > set of interface boards for a PDP-11... I remember that one, it was used with some Norsk Data ND100 (16bit) systems. I still have a power supply unit for the ND, it isn't physically very large but the +5V can provide 200A.. (there used to be a +5V 300A PSU in storage too but it went before i could grab it). The ND-5000 (32-bit) systems used an FPS 5000 unit and I'm a bit more familiar with that one. From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 23:21:03 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 23:21:03 -0500 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I seem to have acquired a few boards from a decommissioned system. Don't know what I'll do with these for now, other than maybe hang them up for display purposes...unless someone has one, what else can one do? http://imgur.com/a/NAThh This is the only picture I have of this particular installation: http://i.imgur.com/ePQCz5u.jpg I'm sure it was decommissioned sometime in the late 1980s or early 1990s, at least according to some of the 9-track tapes I have for it. My plan, if I make it out to VCF West, is to bring the software along for Al K. Kyle From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Apr 20 23:46:37 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 23:46:37 -0500 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160421044637.GA30354@lonesome.com> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 11:21:03PM -0500, Kyle Owen wrote: > I seem to have acquired a few boards from a decommissioned system. 74S00s, they were going for speed. The 2900s are the well-known bit-slice chips. All definitely the level of technology I cut my teeth on. mcl From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 20 23:46:48 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 21:46:48 -0700 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While I?d used several computers before the Harris H550 (I think that?s the right model, we called it ?SNAP II? in the Navy), the Harris was the first that I worked on professionally. Even though I was an Electrician at the time, I ended up as one of the people working on the Harris, and somewhere I should still have a printout of the ?man pages? on its JCL. It was running Vulcan OS, and I was able to get access to BASIC on it, and IIRC, that?s how I got access to the JCL interface. I was also the only person onboard ship, and about the only person in the Navy apparently to use the 8? floppies, I used them to store Engineering documents written with the MUSE word processor (which at the time I thought was quite nice). The system had quite a nice implementation of ZORK, and what I remember being a very cool Star Trek game, that wasn?t like the traditional Star Trek (which IIRC, it also had). On the H550, the operators console was basically a normal terminal, with a printer. We had a 9-track tape drive, paper-tape reader/punch, 2 or 3 pairs of 8? floppies around the ship, four 8? HD?s, which IIRC were 80MB each (but realistically likely smaller, we were really crunched for disk space). There was also a punch card reader in the one office, but it could only read a single card at a time. One interesting thing was, to copy one small file required typing a command string the length of a line on the terminal, it was a nightmare to use the floppies as a result. All in all, I have good memories of working on the system, probably better than working on a Honeywell DPS-8 (or DPS-6) Mainframe running either GCOS-8 or GCOS-6. BTW, VMS is pretty much my favorite OS, though sadly I?m not actively using it any more. :-( Zane > On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:33 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > Back when I spent a couple of years at UNLV in the late 80s, I had a class in which I was forced to use an account on a Harris H800 computer, if my memory serves me correctly. Being a BSD snob, I felt that was a terrible imposition, much like being forced to calculate compound interest on a stone-age abacus made from partially petrified dinosaur turds. *Without gloves.* > > Now, of course, I'm a lot more easy-going, and downright curious about things that might not have been my first choice for a computing environment. Even VMS! > > So, does anybody here know anything about that family of computers? I seem to recall getting a tour of the computer room once, and the two front panels of the machine were swung open to reveal two thick, mattress-like beds of twisted pair wires. That seemed nauseatingly primitive to me at the time, but now the memory seems fascinating. > > I also seem to remember an operator's console with two round CRTs on it, but I might have fabricated that memory from whole cloth. > > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 20 23:38:21 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 21:38:21 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160420232529.8AD48A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20160420232529.8AD48A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <5718593D.1010409@sydex.com> On 04/20/2016 04:25 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> Here's my top 3 weirdest devices I've ever sent email through, >> just for fun: Just sent myself a brief message using my Kobo eReader (e-ink type). Took about 15 minutes and was like cutting a 2x4 with a scalpel. Hard, frustrating. --Chuck From rwiker at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 01:07:39 2016 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:07:39 +0200 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: <20160421044637.GA30354@lonesome.com> References: <20160421044637.GA30354@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 11:21:03PM -0500, Kyle Owen wrote: > > I seem to have acquired a few boards from a decommissioned system. > > 74S00s, they were going for speed. > > The 2900s are the well-known bit-slice chips. > > All definitely the level of technology I cut my teeth on. > I was a bit surprised to see that it used 2901 with a date code of 1985 - the 2901 was introduced 10 years before. In the late 1970s, Norsk Data implemented the ND10 architecture with the 2901. It was thought that this would give a modest uplift over the previous generation, and the planned name was ND10S. It turned out to be so fast that Norsk Data gave it the name ND100 instead :-) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Apr 20 19:08:56 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 20:08:56 -0400 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57181A18.6000103@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-20 8:02 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> >> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:12:36 +0200 >> From: Jonathan Katz >> Subject: Re: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near >> Northbrook, IL >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> Intel's effort at RISC. Didn't go so well for them, but did inspire >>> the name of Windows NT and was the original host platform for the >>> then-new OS. >>> >> >> The i860 was a neat little bugger. There was an iPSC/860 done by Intel >> which would be a fun box to save/rescue/run with its own variation of Unix. >> > > I have a quad-860 VME board for Sun systems in my collection. > Do you have the development environment for it? --Toby From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 19:02:21 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 20:02:21 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 22, Issue 20 Message-ID: > > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:12:36 +0200 > From: Jonathan Katz > Subject: Re: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near > Northbrook, IL > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > > Intel's effort at RISC. Didn't go so well for them, but did inspire > > the name of Windows NT and was the original host platform for the > > then-new OS. > > > > The i860 was a neat little bugger. There was an iPSC/860 done by Intel > which would be a fun box to save/rescue/run with its own variation of Unix. > I have a quad-860 VME board for Sun systems in my collection. -- Michael Thompson From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 21 00:08:18 2016 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 01:08:18 -0400 Subject: LSSM event announcement Message-ID: <57186042.1010505@neurotica.com> [I'm sending this around to several mailing lists] Most of you have heard of the Large Scale Systems Museum, a public museum in the Pittsburgh area that is focused on minicomputers, mainframes, and supercomputers. LSSM opened its doors to the public for the first time in October of 2015, coinciding with a city-wide festival. We have been doing tours by appointment since then, averaging 3-4 tours per month. On April 30th, there will be another such festival here in town, called "New Kensington Better Block". It's a large block party that will encompass much of the downtown area. There will be more than sixty street vendors offering food, handmade crafts from local artists, and just about everything else you can think of. There will be two stages' worth of live music, games, a beer garden featuring great brews from the historic Penn Brewery, lots of kids' activities like face-painting and caricature artists, drawings and raffles, the grand openings of three new businesses, and lots of other great stuff. Another star of the show, Pittsburgh-based C/PMuseum, as a guest of LSSM, will also be returning to Better Block with a special exhibit this time covering the history of the world's largest technology company, Apple Computer. From the humble beginnings of two friends named Steve, through today, Apple's 40th anniversary. See running examples of the actual machines that launched Apple in the 1970s and 1980s. In addition, the gaming wing of C/PMuseum will feature a display with running examples of game consoles from the earliest generations through the most modern 3D immersive virtual reality. Where else can you start out playing on a Magnavox Odyssey, and end up inside the VR world of an HTC Vive? The C/PMuseum pop-up at New Kensington Better Block, that's where! The LSSM will be participating in that event just as we did last October, by being open to the public all day. (I'm aware that this is very short notice; for that I apologize) Many of the Very Large Computers here will be running and demonstrated on a rotation throughout the day. Come and hack on DEC PDP-8, PDP-11, and VAX systems, IBM System/36s, and everything in between. See Cray supercomputers, DECsystem-20s, IBM System/370 and System/390 mainframes, and real rarities such as a Symbolics Lisp Machine, and minicomputers from the 1960s such as an HP 2116B (one of their first!) and a Varian 620-L. See a Heath H-1, a tube-based analog computer from 1956. See nearly all of the IBM "midrange" line. See how SSP, the operating system from the IBM System/36, can run in a virtual environment on an AS/400. See what an 800-pound hard drive looks like. All are invited! The LSSM is located at 924 4th Avenue, New Kensington, PA 15068, right in the middle of the block party area. New Kensington is about ten minutes' drive from the Allegheny Valley exit of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, Exit 48. It's a very easy area to reach, and there are a number of decent and inexpensive hotels nearby. I hope you can make it. Once again I apologize for the short notice. And of course if you cannot make it, feel free to contact the LSSM via email to info at lssmuseum.org or on Facebook (search for "Large Scale Systems Museum") to set up a visit at your leisure. You can also see some photos of our first big public opening on that page. Please feel free to forward this message to anyone whom you think might be interested. Thanks, -Dave McGuire President/Curator, LSSM -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 01:24:12 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:24:12 +0200 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: <20160421044637.GA30354@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 21 April 2016 at 08:07, Raymond Wiker wrote: > I was a bit surprised to see that it used 2901 with a date code of 1985 - > the 2901 was introduced 10 years before. > > In the late 1970s, Norsk Data implemented the ND10 architecture with the > 2901. It was thought that this would give a modest uplift over the previous > generation, and the planned name was ND10S. It turned out to be so fast > that Norsk Data gave it the name ND100 instead :-) Almost :-) The NORD-10/S was a NORD-10 plus caching and paging, while the bitsliced version was to be called NORD-10/M (M for 'micro'), and was so fast that it was renamed NORD-100, which was shortened to ND-100 later that same year (1978 - but the machine itself was released in 1979, so it was always sold as just ND-100). -Tor From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 02:03:19 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 00:03:19 -0700 Subject: [OT] Alternatives to eBay In-Reply-To: References: <01ee01d19b28$313cf290$93b6d7b0$@com> Message-ID: <587E22D7-7425-4D27-BEF5-65B5379F8EDF@gmail.com> I haven't look at Craigslist much. Isn't it more oriented to geographically local sales? Can you setup search alerts like on ebay? Marc On Apr 20, 2016, at 10:36 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Craigslist is the one big eBay alternative. From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Apr 21 03:06:33 2016 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 10:06:33 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- Fra: "Swift Griggs" Til: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sendt: 20. april 2016 18:55 Emne: Re: strangest systems I've sent email from > On Wed, 20 Apr 2016, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> For remote mailing I prefer i vt terminal and a microwave link: >> https://youtu.be/r6NuDcemRsM > For the danish cold-war museum, I'm presently setting up a telex system with (at present) 3 or 4 Siemens T100 teleprinters (it can support up to 16). Apart from functioning as a 60's/70's telex exchange, it can send and receive e-mails, and therefore we can in principle update e.g. our facebook status. The e-mail recipients are defined as a number on the exchange, and then this number is connected to a table, where the e-mail address is defined. When receiving, the e-mail is to be sent to the museum at the address (example) telex at museum.dk. In the commentline,the text must be ZCZC Works like a dream. An identical system is installed at the danish it museum (www.ddhf.dk) Theres is of course a limit : characters only, but special characters can be translated on the fly /Nico -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 3690 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 05:40:47 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 12:40:47 +0200 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: <20160421044637.GA30354@lonesome.com> Message-ID: > Almost :-) > The NORD-10/S was a NORD-10 plus caching and paging, while the > bitsliced version was to be called NORD-10/M (M for 'micro'), and was > so fast that it was renamed NORD-100, which was shortened to ND-100 > later that same year (1978 - but the machine itself was released in > 1979, so it was always sold as just ND-100). > > -Tor > Speaking of NORD-10 I put some scanned documents here: http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/norsk-data-documentation and also a few diskettes that I have imaged: http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/norsk-data-floppy-disks One of the documents describes the microarchitecture of the NORD-10/S. There are some eighty more disks that are imaged but not yet put on the webpage above and also quite a lot of documentation, both software and hardware for the NORD-10, that I need to deal with when I have time. /Mattis From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Apr 21 05:43:02 2016 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 12:43:02 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <1461235382.7503.21.camel@agj.net> tor 2016-04-21 klockan 10:06 +0200 skrev Nico de Jong: > ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- > Fra: "Swift Griggs" > Til: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sendt: 20. april 2016 18:55 > Emne: Re: strangest systems I've sent email from > > > > On Wed, 20 Apr 2016, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> For remote mailing I prefer i vt terminal and a microwave link: > >> https://youtu.be/r6NuDcemRsM > > > > For the danish cold-war museum, I'm presently setting up a telex system with > (at present) 3 or 4 Siemens T100 teleprinters (it can support up to 16). > Apart from functioning as a 60's/70's telex exchange, it can send and > receive e-mails, and therefore we can in principle update e.g. our facebook > status. > The e-mail recipients are defined as a number on the exchange, and then this > number is connected to a table, where the e-mail address is defined. > When receiving, the e-mail is to be sent to the museum at the address > (example) telex at museum.dk. In the commentline,the text must be ZCZC > > Works like a dream. An identical system is installed at the danish it museum > (www.ddhf.dk) > Theres is of course a limit : characters only, but special characters can be > translated on the fly That reminds about the gateway between MILTEX (Swedish military telex-network) , the procedure to send a message from one teleprinter to an telefax terminal was the same (i have forgotten what the address was.) From tingox at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 06:22:45 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:22:45 +0200 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: <20160421044637.GA30354@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Speaking of NORD-10 I put some scanned documents here: > http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/norsk-data-documentation > and also a few diskettes that I have imaged: > http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/norsk-data-floppy-disks > > One of the documents describes the microarchitecture of the NORD-10/S. > > There are some eighty more disks that are imaged but not yet put on the > webpage above and also quite a lot of documentation, both software and > hardware for the NORD-10, that I need to deal with when I have time. > Hey, this is useful. Thanks for doing it! -- mvh Torfinn Ingolfsen From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 07:01:22 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 07:01:22 -0500 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5718C112.4050206@gmail.com> On 04/20/2016 08:57 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > Also going to mention the BBC Tube coprocessor here. Which had an ARM > version, iirc. Yes, from Acorn: ARM, 32016, 6502, 65C102, Z80, 80186 and 80286. Torch did a couple of different Z80 boards too, and a couple of different Z80/68000 combo boards. Casper made a 68000 board. PEDL made a Z80 board. I can't think of any other commercial ones from back in the day* off the top of my head; Torch also made an 8088 board, but that hung off the 1MHz bus connector rather than the Tube. Cumana made a 68008 board but that one interfaced directly with the native 6502 CPU socket. * A few people have made modern or homebrew boards with other CPUs on them. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 07:04:53 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 07:04:53 -0500 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5718C1E5.7030601@gmail.com> On 04/20/2016 10:00 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > Nice collection. I'd forgotten about the 32016! What software ran on these > respective processors? OS-wise the 32016 ran something called Panos, with Pandora as the firmware - mostly written in Modula-2. Acorn (working with Logica) attempted a Xenix port, and some documentation references Xenix as being available, but I don't think it was ever released; having to run all the I/O across the Tube interface just proved to be too much of a bottleneck. From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 07:19:56 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:19:56 +0200 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: <20160421044637.GA30354@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 21 April 2016 at 13:22, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >> Speaking of NORD-10 I put some scanned documents here: >> http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/norsk-data-documentation >> and also a few diskettes that I have imaged: >> http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/norsk-data-floppy-disks >> >> One of the documents describes the microarchitecture of the NORD-10/S. >> >> There are some eighty more disks that are imaged but not yet put on the >> webpage above and also quite a lot of documentation, both software and >> hardware for the NORD-10, that I need to deal with when I have time. >> > > Hey, this is useful. > Thanks for doing it! Yep! Already investigating. IMD gave me some trouble, had to resort to dosbox. Source for PED (Programmer's Editor) version G? I've never seen source. I have version F as a :PROG file. I'm guessing that Planc version C may compile it.. this will stretch my emulator. Haven't yet figured out how to handle that PED2.DMK file, so I don't know what it contains - executable? Anyway, this should really fork into another thread, not hijacking the Harris H800 thread. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 07:25:22 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:25:22 +0100 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <5718C1E5.7030601@gmail.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5718C1E5.7030601@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 21 April 2016 at 13:04, Jules Richardson wrote: > OS-wise the 32016 ran something called Panos, with Pandora as the firmware > - mostly written in Modula-2. Acorn (working with Logica) attempted a > Xenix port, and some documentation references Xenix as being available, but > I don't think it was ever released; having to run all the I/O across the > Tube interface just proved to be too much of a bottleneck. PANOS you say? Here it is running on the ABC-310: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/scripts/picshow.php?image=DSCF7209.jpg&folder=/museum/acorn/acw&back=/museum/acorn/acw/index.php (that picture was taken in 2002. I powered it up again late last year and everything was OK APART from the ST225 which *nearly* works...) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 07:43:22 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:43:22 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer Message-ID: > > > > Hey, this is useful. > > Thanks for doing it! > > Yep! > Already investigating. IMD gave me some trouble, had to resort to > dosbox. Source for PED (Programmer's Editor) version G? I've never > seen source. I have version F as a :PROG file. I'm guessing that Planc > version C may compile it.. this will stretch my emulator. Haven't yet > figured out how to handle that PED2.DMK file, so I don't know what it > contains - executable? > > > PED2.DMK and DISK8.IMD is the same disk, but different ways of reading it off the disk. I used both the standard PC-floppy and then also the catweasel card. I tried the catweasel for some floppies that I had reading trouble with. I am really interested in hearing more about your emulator! /Mattis From fred at MISER.MISERNET.NET Thu Apr 21 08:50:21 2016 From: fred at MISER.MISERNET.NET (Fred) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:50:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 22, Issue 20 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Apr 2016 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 13:32:01 +0200 > From: Jonathan Katz > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: strangest systems I've sent email from > > Using something like "dtmail" on a Sparc 10 in 2016 on a daily basis, or > VMS MAIL on a MicroVax would be an anachronism equal to hooking up a KayPro > luggable to an acoustic coupler over a cellular modem in the 1980s in the > back of your A-Team van ;) Hey, I use PINE on OpenVMS daily. Sometimes I use good old MAIL if I'm not reading mailing list digests. (pine's viewer is easier to navigate long digests). I have MUSIC/SP running elsewhere (mainframe operating system) and I really wish I could get that communicating to the outside world, but despite on and off again attempts when I get the gumption to try some folks and I just can't make it work. That's why I want to get my own (small, if there is such a thing) 390 so I can *really* play. I also wouldn't mind a copy of PROFS, leaving out for the moment that it's licensed and IBM would probably Never(tm) hobbyist license a copy. One can dream. ;) Fred From laurens at daemon.be Thu Apr 21 08:15:54 2016 From: laurens at daemon.be (Laurens Vets) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 06:15:54 -0700 Subject: Manual for DEC 433au In-Reply-To: <797211322.25757.1461186034338.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe19.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> References: <015301d197dd$b1f735b0$15e5a110$@ntlworld.com> <320f15182e8d3479112d2fd893ede1b2@daemon.be> <797211322.25757.1461186034338.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe19.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: On 2016-04-20 14:00, Jarratt RMA wrote: >> On 19 April 2016 at 19:29 Laurens Vets wrote: >> >> On 2016-04-16 18:07, Glen Slick wrote: >>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 5:44 AM, Robert Jarratt >>> wrote: >>>> Anyone got the following document: DIGITAL Personal Workstation >>>> System >>>> Reference and Maintenance Guide >>>> >>> >>> Only thing I managed to find so far: >>> http://www.cilinder.be/docs/digitalpwsau/miatasg.zip >>> >>> Download and unzip that, then start at: >>> miatasgdpws_aauServiceAaudpwssg.htm >>> >>> DIGITAL Personal Workstation System Reference and Maintenance Guide >>> a/au-Series >>> >>> It's a collection of html pages, not a single pdf manual, and not >>> super friendly, but better than nothing. >> >> Unfortunately, I never got/found the pdf of that manual :( >> >> Btw, cilinder.be is my site, I only keep it in the air for the old >> documentation. > > Thanks for keeping that site up, even if the format isn't ideal, it > is still providing a useful manual! Thank you :) From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Apr 21 09:13:08 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 07:13:08 -0700 Subject: [OT] Alternatives to eBay In-Reply-To: <587E22D7-7425-4D27-BEF5-65B5379F8EDF@gmail.com> References: <01ee01d19b28$313cf290$93b6d7b0$@com> <587E22D7-7425-4D27-BEF5-65B5379F8EDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <71FA2867-BE18-4E8E-98C4-F326B1924EEE@nf6x.net> > On Apr 21, 2016, at 00:03, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: > > I haven't look at Craigslist much. Isn't it more oriented to geographically local sales? Can you setup search alerts like on ebay? Yes, it's geographically oriented. You can do wide area searches on another site called searchtempest.com. I've never really found Craigslist very appealing, personally. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Apr 21 09:22:21 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:22:21 +0000 Subject: Harris RTX-2000 - Re: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <002501d19b26$b70e3840$252aa8c0$@net> , <5717BDF4.10509@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Apr 20, 2016, at 9:46 PM, dwight wrote: > The RTX-2000 was an of shoot of the NC4000. Even at 10MHz, they could > out compute a 40MHz 80386. > One execution per clock cycle plus possibly using 3 16 bit busses in a single > cycle. > A 4MHz NC4000 could sort 1K 16 bit values in 19.7 milliseconds. > Dwight > > ?. > On 2016-04-20 1:28 PM, dwight wrote: >> There was a Harris RTX-2000 based accelerator card around >> the 80386 time period. > > ...Interestingly: "The RTX 2000 is specifically designed to execute the > Forth language" > (https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/sec4_5.html) > > --Toby (top-post ?. bottom-post ?. AAagh!) :-) The Harris RTX-2010, in a rad-hard version, was for years the CPU of choice for spacecraft science instruments from Johns Hopkins APL. Those chips are *all* *over* the solar system! One of APL's lead SW engineers wrote one of the most widely-used Forth test suites, partly for that reason. It?s a pretty nice chip, for multiple reasons. - Mark From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 09:24:00 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:24:00 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Apr 2016, John Willis wrote: > going from the terminal server and use a proper TN3270 client to access the > mainframe instead of ProComm Plus. Oh I remember Procomm, I was a Qmodem man, myself. However, niether had 3270 emulation. > It wouldn't be until 1994 that the university allowed access to the public > internet directly through SLIP or PPP. My college was very restrictive that way, too. I figured out how to get "slirp" working because there wasn't anyway to get a working PPP or SLIP connection for me from there. The things we did to get connected to the net in those days... -Swift From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Apr 21 09:24:12 2016 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 09:24:12 -0500 Subject: Imlac PDS-1 source code In-Reply-To: <20160420122533.6B5E918C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160420122533.6B5E918C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5718E28C.60103@ubanproductions.com> Yes, the mazewar source is saved. I demonstrated it running on my Imlac PDS-1 together with an emulated PDP10 (thanks to Ken Harrenstien) as well as an emulated PDS-1 (thanks to Howard Palmer) back in 2006 at a VCF West. Best, Tom Uban On 4/20/16 7:25 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Josh Dersch > > > I have an Imlac PDS-1D ... > > There's precious little software out there for this thing > > Did a copy of Mazewar for the Imlac survive? > > There are partal file system dumps of some of the MIT machines, but IIRC > Mazewar was only on MIT-DM, and I'm not sure its files are still accessible > (although they will be on backup tape at MIT). > > Noel > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 21 09:27:46 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 10:27:46 -0400 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <392C8A29-3116-4C05-9269-452445790B23@comcast.net> > On Apr 20, 2016, at 11:33 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > Back when I spent a couple of years at UNLV in the late 80s, I had a class in which I was forced to use an account on a Harris H800 computer, if my memory serves me correctly. Being a BSD snob, I felt that was a terrible imposition, much like being forced to calculate compound interest on a stone-age abacus made from partially petrified dinosaur turds. *Without gloves.* > > Now, of course, I'm a lot more easy-going, and downright curious about things that might not have been my first choice for a computing environment. Even VMS! > > So, does anybody here know anything about that family of computers? I seem to recall getting a tour of the computer room once, and the two front panels of the machine were swung open to reveal two thick, mattress-like beds of twisted pair wires. That seemed nauseatingly primitive to me at the time, but now the memory seems fascinating. > > I also seem to remember an operator's console with two round CRTs on it, but I might have fabricated that memory from whole cloth. Thick mat of twisted pair wiring, and console with two round CRTs, that's a good description of a CDC 6000 series mainframe. They certainly weren't as easy to use as Unix machines, but a lot faster than anything else at the time they were released. paul From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 09:39:19 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:39:19 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [OT] Alternatives to eBay In-Reply-To: <71FA2867-BE18-4E8E-98C4-F326B1924EEE@nf6x.net> References: <01ee01d19b28$313cf290$93b6d7b0$@com> <587E22D7-7425-4D27-BEF5-65B5379F8EDF@gmail.com> <71FA2867-BE18-4E8E-98C4-F326B1924EEE@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > > I haven't look at Craigslist much. Isn't it more oriented to > > geographically local sales? Can you setup search alerts like on ebay? Craigslist rocks, IMHO. I agree that Ebay is draconian and over-corporate. However, I also agree with others that I've found stuff on ebay I'd never have had the opportunity to own otherwise. Craigslist does have a feature where you can search in all cities. I was able to call and deal directly with a seller 2 hours South of me, once. However, it is very "buy local" oriented. Most sellers on Craigslist won't hassle with you if you want it shipped. They want you to come pick it up. I guess if it was something you really wanted you could pay a courier to pick it up. It really depends on the type of gear you are looking for. Thanks, Swift From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 21 09:51:39 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 09:51:39 -0500 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <5718C1E5.7030601@gmail.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5718C1E5.7030601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5718E8FB.1040001@pico-systems.com> On 04/21/2016 07:04 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/20/2016 10:00 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Nice collection. I'd forgotten about the 32016! What >> software ran on these >> respective processors? > > OS-wise the 32016 ran something called Panos, with Pandora > as the firmware - mostly written in Modula-2. Acorn > (working with Logica) attempted a Xenix port, and some > documentation references Xenix as being available, but I > don't think it was ever released; having to run all the > I/O across the Tube interface just proved to be too much > of a bottleneck. > > > I'm pretty sure I ran both Genix and then Xenix on the Logical Microcomputer Co. 32016 we bought. Jon From scaron at diablonet.net Thu Apr 21 09:59:43 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 10:59:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OT] Alternatives to eBay In-Reply-To: References: <01ee01d19b28$313cf290$93b6d7b0$@com> <587E22D7-7425-4D27-BEF5-65B5379F8EDF@gmail.com> <71FA2867-BE18-4E8E-98C4-F326B1924EEE@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: >>> I haven't look at Craigslist much. Isn't it more oriented to >>> geographically local sales? Can you setup search alerts like on ebay? > > Craigslist rocks, IMHO. I agree that Ebay is draconian and over-corporate. > However, I also agree with others that I've found stuff on ebay I'd never > have had the opportunity to own otherwise. > > Craigslist does have a feature where you can search in all cities. I was > able to call and deal directly with a seller 2 hours South of me, once. > However, it is very "buy local" oriented. Most sellers on Craigslist won't > hassle with you if you want it shipped. They want you to come pick it up. > I guess if it was something you really wanted you could pay a courier to > pick it up. > > It really depends on the type of gear you are looking for. > > Thanks, > Swift > While it may be possible to find neat stuff on Craigs on the coasts or in other big technology states like TX and select metros like Chicago, here in "flyover country" it's usually pretty barren. While a few local options do exist ... mostly Property Dispo at the local State U, often we find ourselves bringing things in from out-of-state and eBay has consistently been great at doing just that, connecting sellers in high-equipment-volume areas with buyers in low-equipment-volume areas. Without eBay and the retail operation that Herb Johnson was running for some years, my collection would be nowhere as cool as it is now, that's for sure. Best, Sean From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 10:01:35 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 09:01:35 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > > > It wouldn't be until 1994 that the university allowed access to the > public > > internet directly through SLIP or PPP. > > My college was very restrictive that way, too. I figured out how to get > "slirp" working because there wasn't anyway to get a working PPP or SLIP > connection for me from there. The things we did to get connected to the net > in those days... I think I remember slirp... didn't that somewhat emulate a SLIP link through a shell account? That's another thing I remember and miss from those days... your average ISP would provide NNTP and UNIX shell accounts, as well as a few megs of space to put up a personal web site in ~/public_html. > -Swift > From ethan at 757.org Thu Apr 21 10:07:42 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 11:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OT] Alternatives to eBay In-Reply-To: <71FA2867-BE18-4E8E-98C4-F326B1924EEE@nf6x.net> References: <01ee01d19b28$313cf290$93b6d7b0$@com> <587E22D7-7425-4D27-BEF5-65B5379F8EDF@gmail.com> <71FA2867-BE18-4E8E-98C4-F326B1924EEE@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > Yes, it's geographically oriented. You can do wide area searches on another site called searchtempest.com. I've never really found Craigslist very appealing, personally. There are services that let people set alerts and it will ping them on their phone or something. Just post a desireable pinball machine at a low price to test. When I was heading to VCF East I almost bought a music synthesizer from a Craigslist person but he sold it before I was heading up. Craigslist buyers and sellers can be FLAKY, and at same time you can meet some awesome people through it (through the buying and selling of stuff, not including all the personals stuff.) From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Apr 21 10:29:14 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:29:14 -0700 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: <392C8A29-3116-4C05-9269-452445790B23@comcast.net> References: <392C8A29-3116-4C05-9269-452445790B23@comcast.net> Message-ID: <097C7E04-BD81-4AE4-97A8-30A00BB91324@nf6x.net> > On Apr 21, 2016, at 07:27, Paul Koning wrote: > > Thick mat of twisted pair wiring, and console with two round CRTs, that's a good description of a CDC 6000 series mainframe. They certainly weren't as easy to use as Unix machines, but a lot faster than anything else at the time they were released. Ah, then I am probably confusing two different memories: Seeing a CDC 6000, and using a Harris H800 remotely. I recall that whatever OS was running on the H800 was very un-UNIX-like, but that's the extent of my memory. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 21 10:36:52 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 10:36:52 -0500 Subject: VMS consulting gig? Message-ID: <003e01d19be3$a0cc7390$e2655ab0$@classiccmp.org> I have an associate that is working with a large Fortune500 company and is having issues connecting his stuff to "legacy" technology there. Apparently, a company called "Synergex" has a "screen scraper" type program that presents a gui to a windows desktop user from a character based application (VMS or OpenVMS). So if anyone has general expertise with both OpenVMS and the Synergex "GUI on VMS programs" application, drop me a line off list and we'll get you involved. Best, J From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 21 10:43:44 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:43:44 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5718F530.5090103@sydex.com> On 04/21/2016 08:01 AM, John Willis wrote: > That's another thing I remember and miss from those days... your > average ISP would provide NNTP and UNIX shell accounts, as well as a > few megs of space to put up a personal web site in ~/public_html. In fact, that's what the Internet used to mean. No web browsers--my old "internet Starter Kit" had an email client and the associated connectivity software. I used UUCP for email--and still have some of the files. But what are we talking about when we say "email"? I've been on both ARPANet and USENET using terminals to communicate. Many institutions and corporate entities, not to mention the military (cf. AUTODIN as an example) had their own messaging systems long before the Internet. --Chuck From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 11:11:22 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 10:11:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, John Willis wrote: > I think I remember slirp... didn't that somewhat emulate a SLIP link > through a shell account? Yes. It was (and kinda still is) awesome. The coolest thing about it is that, unlike using PPP or SLIP, you don't need valid IPs as endpoints. Slirp was like a poor mans dynamic one-to-many NAT before there was such a beast. That was a great thing when you were a college student without any juice to get an IP from the IT beast that ran the school. > That's another thing I remember and miss from those days... your average > ISP would provide NNTP and UNIX shell accounts, as well as a few megs of > space to put up a personal web site in ~/public_html. Yep. I miss that too. I used to run such an ISP in the 90's and we did exactly as you say. We also ran a finger servers everywhere (and no, not one with a bunch of security problems). People used to use that in cool ways, too (bots, cool services, vending machine interfaces, etc..). The simple fact is that most folks are too apathetic and ignorant to care about such things anymore. The Internet is a large, but still textbook case of what happens when you let business-weasels in on something good. They "monetize" it and turn it into a combination strip-mall, casino, theatre, porn-shop. Of course, the Internet wouldn't be what it is without said weasels, (certainly not as large) but I think I'd be pretty okay with that. I'd be okay without 80% of Internet traffic being video, too. I guess that makes me a curmudgeon (but I've always hated TV and I resent the forces trying to morph the Internet into on-demand cable television). Yea yeah, I know I'm just peeing in the wind to say it, but there it is. I remember when computers used to come with a programming manual and schematics for the machine, too. Even mid-level stereo equipment would often come with schematics. That's because those folks (the generation before me, I'm a gen-X unit) had a significant population of people who cared about such things and could run a soldering iron. Just like there didn't used to be any such thing as Computer Science. Ie.. you learned electrical engineering (ie.. how the darn chips themselves worked, first) or some other technical discipline then applied that to computing. Now, most colleges want to teach you Java and call you a computer scientist. We get college grads all the time and I'm shocked to see how little they've actually been taught relating to computing. They are marginally more useful than high school kids and that's only because they don't show up quite as late for work. I'm not saying everything was perfect in the 80's or 90's. I mean, some CS professors in the 90's were teaching Oberon, LISP dialects, or Smalltalk. Then if you ever uttered the (completely true) phrase "not commercially viable" they'd launch into some diatribe about how these languages taught you some kind of special spiritual meta-programming that'd ultimately path the path for you to become some kind of code-God (like them?). That is, as long as you bought their 18th edition $160 book (only at the college bookstore). So, no, things were never perfect, and people had to try and do work with Windows for Workgroups 3.11. :-) Point is, I don't have blinders on, but there are *reasons* why I'm nostalgic. Just like I'm nostalgic for the days (before my time) when a person could earn interest on their savings. I'm not saying things were perfect, but some aspects of the past were definitely better. -Swift From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 11:57:34 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 12:57:34 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:24 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Extreme Mailing > > What is the most unusual place you have sent mail from? Lake Hoare, Dry Valleys, Antarctica, November, 1995, after I installed a Ritron "radio phone" and a dialup modem at the Field Camp... http://penguincentral.com/pics/gallery/hoare/camp.jpg http://penguincentral.com/pics/gallery/hoare/hoare1.jpg It's a one-hour helo ride from McMurdo, one of several Field Camps in the region. (There are 20 times the number of people who go to/through the South Pole each year than ever see the Dry Valleys, so that's not as "unusual", I'd say, but it's a runner-up) -ethan From rwiker at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 11:59:34 2016 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 18:59:34 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3225AB2A-C209-4BB3-B8FE-4389EFC2340E@gmail.com> > On 21 Apr 2016, at 14:43 , Mattis Lind wrote: > >>> >>> Hey, this is useful. >>> Thanks for doing it! >> >> Yep! >> Already investigating. IMD gave me some trouble, had to resort to >> dosbox. Source for PED (Programmer's Editor) version G? I've never >> seen source. I have version F as a :PROG file. I'm guessing that Planc >> version C may compile it.. this will stretch my emulator. Haven't yet >> figured out how to handle that PED2.DMK file, so I don't know what it >> contains - executable? >> >> >> > PED2.DMK and DISK8.IMD is the same disk, but different ways of reading it > off the disk. I used both the standard PC-floppy and then also the > catweasel card. I tried the catweasel for some floppies that I had reading > trouble with. > > I am really interested in hearing more about your emulator! Me too! From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Apr 21 12:04:51 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 12:04:51 -0500 Subject: [OT] Alternatives to eBay In-Reply-To: References: <01ee01d19b28$313cf290$93b6d7b0$@com> <587E22D7-7425-4D27-BEF5-65B5379F8EDF@gmail.com> <71FA2867-BE18-4E8E-98C4-F326B1924EEE@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <20160421170450.GA31737@lonesome.com> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:07:42AM -0400, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Craigslist buyers and sellers can be FLAKY, and at same time you can meet > some awesome people through it (through the buying and selling of stuff, not > including all the personals stuff.) That's my experience. Often people don't know what they have, and thus the prices are waaay high or waaay low. I've never seen a Craigslist ad that talked about shipping. Really, it's local-only. Of all things I've bought a used vehicle through Craigslist. I went in very skeptical, but the seller disclosed exactly what was and was not working and I am satisfied with what I got, half a year later. A lot of the other ads selling similar trucks were ... sketchy. YMMV. mcl From pete at pski.net Thu Apr 21 12:20:09 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:20:09 -0400 Subject: [OT] Alternatives to eBay In-Reply-To: <20160421170450.GA31737@lonesome.com> References: <01ee01d19b28$313cf290$93b6d7b0$@com> <587E22D7-7425-4D27-BEF5-65B5379F8EDF@gmail.com> <71FA2867-BE18-4E8E-98C4-F326B1924EEE@nf6x.net> <20160421170450.GA31737@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <7657E7FD-3FF9-4024-9514-65A1833695F0@pski.net> > I've never seen a Craigslist ad that talked about shipping. Really, it's > local-only. > I?ve purchased quite a few computers from across the country via Craigslist. Just be upfront with the seller and ask if they would be willing to ship. I always specify ?are you willing to drop this off at a FedEx or UPS store and have it packed and shipped at my expense?. Make it as easy as possible on the seller. 1/2 of my inquiries go unanswered but 1/2 are willing to go to the trouble. Another issue is payment. Most Craigslisters don?t like Paypal so you do run some risk of having to send a check or money order. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 12:36:47 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 11:36:47 -0600 Subject: Z80 /WAIT signal question Message-ID: A friend building a Z80 system asked me about whether the Z80 /WAIT signal has any effect during machine cycles that aren't memory/IO/intack cycles (i.e., neither /MREQ and /IORQ asserted). The user manual only describes the use of /WAIT for adding wait states, so I expect it probably only affects mem/IO/intack cycles, but I can't find anything definitive in the user manual. I'm hoping someone can save me the time of hooking up a logic analyzer and running the experiment. Thanks! Eric From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Apr 21 12:39:40 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 17:39:40 +0000 Subject: shell accounts [was RE: strangest systems I've sent email from] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED13730@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: John Willis Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 8:02 AM > That's another thing I remember and miss from those days... your average > ISP would provide NNTP and UNIX shell accounts, as well as a few megs of > space to put up a personal web site in ~/public_html. I still read Usenet newsgroups via GNUS under Emacs on my shell account on Panix, an ISP located in Manhattan, and have a small web site hosted there as well: http://www.panix.com/~alderson/index.html Some things are too important to relegate to a web browser. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 12:42:12 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 11:42:12 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > > Yep. I miss that too. I used to run such an ISP in the 90's and we did > exactly as you say. We also ran a finger servers everywhere (and no, not > one with a bunch of security problems). People used to use that in cool > ways, too (bots, cool services, vending machine interfaces, etc..). > > I loved being able to do finger @host and then use talk to chat with other people. IMNSHO, the real promise of the Internet as envisioned by Cerf, Postel, et. al. was in the purity of the end-to-end networking connectivity, where your personal machine is a node equal in stature to minis, mid, and mainframes also participating: i.e., you have a real, meaningful address that can not only reach, but be reached. Of course, the prevalence of dial-up connectivity in those days somewhat precluded this, but with a shell account, you could get close. Once broadband took off, with always-on connectivity, this should have been mitigated--but alas, IPv4 depletion and that demonic invention called NAT screwed it up all over again. Of course, if class A and B address blocks weren't handed out like candy to children in the early days, IPv4 might have lasted longer. But that's a whole other discussion. IPv6 _should_ fix this, but trusting the telcos and tier 1 providers to not screw up the transition is tantamount to an ardent belief in bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, and cold fusion. IMO, bandwidth should be bandwidth: it's none of the ISP's business which direction it goes in or what I'm using it for (as long as it's legal). This is why I pay in excess of $300/month for a T1 line and a /27, as well as ADSL with a /28 (from a local provider that doesn't care if I run "servers" or not). I actually run a small neighborhood ISP that provides such a service, in that it's enthusiast-friendly, provides end-to-end connectivity, provides shell accounts, a gopher server, a (text-only) USENET feed, has finger and talk enabled on the various old servers (SunOS, HP-UX, Solaris, 4.2BSD, etc.). I also block video content, Facebook, and all the rather cancerous bandwidth drains of the modern commercial Internet. I also miss: gopher, archie, veronica, and WAIS > > > The simple fact is that most folks are too apathetic and ignorant to care > about such things anymore. The Internet is a large, but still textbook > case of what happens when you let business-weasels in on something good. > They "monetize" it and turn it into a combination strip-mall, casino, > theatre, porn-shop. Of course, the Internet wouldn't be what it is > without said weasels, (certainly not as large) but I think I'd be pretty > okay with that. I'd be okay without 80% of Internet traffic being video, > too. I guess that makes me a curmudgeon (but I've always hated TV and I > resent the forces trying to morph the Internet into on-demand cable > television). Yea yeah, I know I'm just peeing in the wind to say it, but > there it is. > > The downward spiral after the commercialization of the Internet was precipitous and alarmingly rapid: the vapidity of online exchanges quickly reached fever pitch as more and more blockheads flooded the network. Prior to that, the sense of community and mutual trust was astonishing. We didn't have to worry about security nearly as much, since most of us were incredibly grateful to have access to such a resource in the first place. I remember when computers used to come with a programming manual and > schematics for the machine, too. Even mid-level stereo equipment would > often come with schematics. That's because those folks (the generation > before me, I'm a gen-X unit) had a significant population of people who > cared about such things and could run a soldering iron. > > Yep. And the programming manual would come with (gasp) BIOS source listings. I remember even printers coming with a reference for all their escape sequences, and often royalty-free sample code in some combination of assembly language, BASIC, and Pascal. Sometimes C. Now, you get a kindergarten-level fold-out poster showing you where to plug in the keyboard. Even serious programming tools have more text in the license agreement than they do in the printed docs. > Just like there didn't used to be any such thing as Computer Science. > Ie.. you learned electrical engineering (ie.. how the darn chips > themselves worked, first) or some other technical discipline then applied > that to computing. Now, most colleges want to teach you Java and call you > a computer scientist. We get college grads all the time and I'm shocked > to see how little they've actually been taught relating to computing. > They are marginally more useful than high school kids and that's only > because they don't show up quite as late for work. > Heh... I dropped out of college because of this trend. My so-called "data structures" course was in reality just "Modula-2 Programming 101". I found that I was better served by buying old textbooks and studying on my own time, and getting mentored by seasoned veterans. > > I'm not saying everything was perfect in the 80's or 90's. I mean, some > CS professors in the 90's were teaching Oberon, LISP dialects, or > Smalltalk. Then if you ever uttered the (completely true) phrase "not > commercially viable" they'd launch into some diatribe about how these > languages taught you some kind of special spiritual meta-programming > that'd ultimately path the path for you to become some kind of code-God > (like them?). That is, as long as you bought their 18th edition $160 book > (only at the college bookstore). So, no, things were never perfect, and > people had to try and do work with Windows for Workgroups 3.11. :-) > Very true. Trumpet Winsock was an exercise in frustration: but I got turned on to UNIX very early on. From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 12:45:15 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 11:45:15 -0600 Subject: shell accounts [was RE: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED13730@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED13730@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: > > > That's another thing I remember and miss from those days... your average > > ISP would provide NNTP and UNIX shell accounts, as well as a few megs of > > space to put up a personal web site in ~/public_html. > > I still read Usenet newsgroups via GNUS under Emacs on my shell account on > Panix, an ISP located in Manhattan, and have a small web site hosted there > as well: > > http://www.panix.com/~alderson/index.html > > Some things are too important to relegate to a web browser. > > Rich > This gives me a thought: I run a similar (but likely much smaller) ISP in my neighborhood. ISPs like Panix and my own ChivaNet should come up with some common branding indicating that we support traditional Internet values and services. Some way for enthusiasts who really care about "the Internet as it was meant to be" to separate the wheat from the chaff, and be smarter about bandwidth shopping. From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Apr 21 12:47:14 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 17:47:14 +0000 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED1376B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Swift Griggs Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 9:11 AM > I'm not saying everything was perfect in the 80's or 90's. I mean, some CS > professors in the 90's were teaching Oberon, LISP dialects, or Smalltalk. Yes, and if you'd actually paid attention to what they were teaching you, instead of whinging about commercial viability, you would probably be better for it, especially the Lisp (although by the period you name, most of the fun was gone, with Common Lisp and Scheme as the two surviving dialects). > So, no, things were never perfect, and people had to try and do work with > Windows for Workgroups 3.11. :-) Tell me about having to get work done on a 12K 1401, and maybe I'll listen. In the mean time, get off my lawn, kid. Rich FTHI: ;-> ;-> ;-> ;-> Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From rickb at bensene.com Thu Apr 21 13:04:29 2016 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 11:04:29 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600/Cyber 73 Memories - WAS: Harris H800 Computer Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A19F@mail.bensene.com> Mark J. Blair wrote: > I also seem to remember an operator's console with two round CRTs on it, > but I might have fabricated that memory from whole cloth. > I think that you were remembering the console of one of the Control Data 6000/Cyber-70 series computers that you may have seen somewhere. This series of Control Data machines were famous for their consoles with two large, round, green-phosphor monitors that used vector drawn-characters (generated by one of the Peripheral Processors). Most of the normal system screens were all text, but there were some special programs written (including a nice graphical chess game, a little program that would put up eyes on the screens that would look around and blink, and some others that don't come to mind at the moment. I operated one of these systems (a Control Data Cyber 73 -- http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/cdc/cyber/brochures/Cyber70_Mod73 _Feb71.pdf) at Tektronix in Beaverton, Oregon, from 1977 through around 1980. It had two CPUs, 131K (60-bit words) of core, ECS (extended core storage), and 20 Peripheral Processors, a combined punched card reader/punch, something like 12 "washing machine" type multi-platter cartridge disk drives (that held something like 300 MB each), two 9-track tape drives and one 7-track tape drive. It also had a big chain printer that was noisy, but pretty fast. The machine had a channel interface to a Modcomp communications processor (with communication maintained by one or more Peripheral Processor programs), that provided serial I/O to terminals scattered all over the company by some kind of serial concentrator that I can't remember. There was also a big modem pool for dial-in use. The system ran a locally-modified version of the Kronos Timeshared operating system. The system was used primarily by engineering departments (research and product development) for CAD and CAD software development, circuit simulation (SPICE), cross-assembling microprocessor code, and mathematical modeling. The machine was an all-transistor design, based on the CDC 6600 processor. It was liquid cooled, and had a large cooler unit that sat with the machine that cooled the coolant (water) and circulated it through the chassis, venting the heat (which was substantial) through a special venting system. I remember the CDC Field guys talking about horror stories when there were leaks in the cooling system. We never had any problems while I was there. One day I was at the console when one of the big high-voltage rectifier tubes that were in the console decided to short. I was watching one of the system monitor displays, and suddenly I saw the display collapse into a single very bright horizontal line. I noted that the other display also did the same thing. I also heard a funny noise that sounded kind of scary, so I started to push my wheeled chair away from the console, but not soon enough to avoid a shower of sparks and even some molten metal that spewed out from the console. I had a few small burns on my arms, and one little blob of molten metal burned a hole in my pant leg. One of the other operators in the machine room managed to hit the power switch for the console and shut it off. Then the fire suppression alarm went off indicating that the Halon was going to dump soon, so he ran back and hit the override since the sparking and smoke had settled once the power was off. Despite this, the fire department showed up (the fire suppression system in the computer room had a direct line to the fire department), and we had to tell them it was a (semi) false alarm. The machine kept running just fine, and we were able to keep tabs on it with a serial terminal hooked up to the machine that had a program running that kind of emulated the console displays. The CDC guys were there very quickly, and ended up having to replace two (IIRC) big rectifier tubes, and one burnt up power resistor. When they powered it up, the screens came up just as they were before the event occurred, and all was well. I really enjoyed those days. The machine was really cool, and I have a lot of great memories of those times. The Living Computer Museum (http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org) in Seattle, WA, has rescued a smaller version of a system like this based on the 6500 processor that is undergoing restoration. Sorry for changing the subject (but at least I updated it in the Subject: line). -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 13:30:41 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 12:30:41 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED1376B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED1376B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, Rich Alderson wrote: > Yes, and if you'd actually paid attention to what they were teaching you, > instead of whinging about commercial viability Well, let's keep things non-personal and civil and agree to disagree. If you knew me better, I doubt you'd say this. It'd just devolve into a VHS vs Betamax (vi vs emacs?) thread anyway. :-) Sorry to punch on anyone's fav if you are a LISP fan. I have bad memories and some fundamental problem with the language that come from my own negative experiences. Just write it off as a personal problem (mine). > Tell me about having to get work done on a 12K 1401, and maybe I'll > listen. In the mean time, get off my lawn, kid. My first computer was a Timex Sinclair 1000 with 2k of RAM (granted it had an 8-bit Z80 rather than a 1401 6-bit CPU), and I'm not whining about it. It was fun. Anyhow, I'm not here to troll you or others. Sorry if my post annoyed you. -Swift From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 21 13:36:00 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 11:36:00 -0700 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57191D90.1040605@bitsavers.org> On 4/20/16 9:21 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I seem to have acquired a few boards from a decommissioned system. Don't > know what I'll do with these for now, other than maybe hang them up for > display purposes...unless someone has one, what else can one do? > I have two front panels for a similar system. It is a 24-bit mini. Docs are on bitsavers. Started out as a company called Datacraft before Harris bought them. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 21 13:36:49 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 11:36:49 -0700 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57191DC1.6080301@bitsavers.org> On 4/20/16 9:21 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I seem to have acquired a few boards from a decommissioned system. it also would be a good thing to dump proms/microcode from them. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 21 13:38:32 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 11:38:32 -0700 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: <20160421044637.GA30354@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <57191E28.4050409@bitsavers.org> On 4/20/16 11:07 PM, Raymond Wiker wrote: > I was a bit surprised to see that it used 2901 with a date code of 1985 - > the 2901 was introduced 10 years before. > I designed a microcoded 12-bit graphics processor in 1985 using them. They were the thing to use until CMOS bit-slices came out (actually, there was a 29C01) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 13:39:20 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 19:39:20 +0100 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <009c01d19bfd$20f1e550$62d5aff0$@gmail.com> Well the first E-Mail I sent was from a Honeywell L66/60 running GCOS and TSS sometime around 1985. Aberdeen University had written a "Greybook" mailer in "B". Greybook was basically RFC822 e-mail with three modifications: - 1. It used revered "big endian" names, so "uk.ac.nerc" as opposed to the modern "nerc.ac.uk". 2. It allowed "BST" or "British Summer Time" as a time zone. 3. It ran over the "Yellow Book Transport Service" which in turn ran over an x.25 network. The required an X.25 link which was provided by a PDP/11 running RSX11M. This connected to the L66 via a Synchronous line. I don't honestly remember how this worked on the Honeywell. The e-mails could be sent to several UK Universities over the Janet X.25 network. We could also send to Bitnet using a gateway which I think was at UCL. There is some information about the state of E-Mail here:- http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/ccd/networking/bryant/p05.htm I was the system programmer who installed and maintained the software from Aberdeen. Later on I installed similar software on an IBM4381 and went on to work on the IBM implementation for Salford University, who wrote it initially at IBM's Manchester office on a 4361 and later in Salford University on IBM kit loaned to use... Dave Wade G4UGM From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 21 13:47:45 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:47:45 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600/Cyber 73 Memories - WAS: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A19F@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A19F@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 21, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > ... > The machine was an all-transistor design, based on the CDC 6600 > processor. It was liquid cooled, and had a large cooler unit that sat > with the machine that cooled the coolant (water) and circulated it > through the chassis, venting the heat (which was substantial) through a > special venting system. I remember the CDC Field guys talking about > horror stories when there were leaks in the cooling system. We never > had any problems while I was there. Rick, Nice memories, thanks for posting that. I don't think there are any Cyber 70 (CDC 6000 series) systems still running, but there's one in emulation, running PLATO. See cyber1.org. It even has emulated console tubes... The machine itself was cooled with Freon (the non-PC flavor). The chilled water you're referring to would take heat away from the Freon cooling system compressors (at the end of each of the CPU cabinets). > One day I was at the console when one of the big high-voltage rectifier > tubes that were in the console decided to short. > I was watching one of the system monitor displays, and suddenly I saw > the display collapse into a single very bright horizontal line. I noted > that the other display also did the same thing. I also heard a funny > noise that sounded kind of scary, so I started to push my wheeled chair > away from the console, but not soon enough to avoid a shower of sparks > and even some molten metal that spewed out from the console. Yikes. I think the rectifiers were solid state. But the deflection amplifiers used high power triodes (3CX100A5) as the final amplifier stage, running around 3 kV anode voltage. If something goes wrong with those, sparks would definitely be a possibility. And you'd expect to see a line (horizontal or vertical). paul From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 13:52:19 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:52:19 -0500 Subject: Using a Gotek-type flash floppy emulator inside a C1581 Message-ID: I wonder if there are any Commodore people out here who could tell me what practical differences would result from using a Gotek-type flash-memory-based floppy emulator in place of the C1581's mechanism, vs. using Jim Brain's uIEC-SD or similar. I don't know if the thing would even work in a 1581 case, or if Commodore DOS or JiffyDOS would work with it; but if so, I wonder if the DOS would work slightly more like the real thing, because it would be actual C=/JiffyDOS running on an actual 6502, instead of something new running on a microcontroller. I understand that you wouldn't get any of the directory-changing commands et al. from the SD2IEC firmware. -- Eric Christopherson From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 14:33:15 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:33:15 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, John Willis wrote: > I loved being able to do finger @host and then use talk to chat with other > people. Me, too! That was a great feature. I'd finger '@' some server that my classmates used and then use talk or ytalk to figure out how to do our homework etc... People who didn't want to participate could just turn off talk requests. > IMNSHO, the real promise of the Internet as envisioned by Cerf, Postel, > et. al. was in the purity of the end-to-end networking connectivity, > where your personal machine is a node equal in stature to minis, mid, and > mainframes also participating: Well said. I feel the same way. First class servers talking with other first-class servers. This has been lost, now. If you want to "run a server" your ISP hears a cash register opening and you'll need a "business" account. It's so far away from the vision you describe well. > i.e., you have a real, meaningful address that can not only reach, but be > reached. It's so important. Most people didn't feel the loss, but guys like you and I won't let go of that vision so easily (for all the good it does us). However, they are *memories* now, and that's sad. It's like remembering a great oak circle in an old growth forest before they cut it down to put up condos and a Starbucks. Folks who live there love the Starbucks, and would recoil in horror at the idea of letting it all go... but we remember. > Of course, the prevalence of dial-up connectivity in those days somewhat > precluded this, but with a shell account, you could get close. Yes, exactly. "Back in the day" I felt like nothing would ever be "lost" on the Internet. As bandwidth and storage got cheap, I figured access would increase, not decrease. Now, I'm noticing that *plenty* of stuff is getting lost. I'll admit I even cringed when I saw Geocities dying. Yeah it was a cheesy service but, for example, I have a friend who is a master gunsmith and put all kinds of excellent info on a site he made. Now it's gone and you can't find that some of that info via a search anymore at all. That phenomenon seems to be picking up speed. It reminds me a bit of a book I read called "The Media Monopoly" by Ben Bagdikian. He talks about how even small towns used to have 2-3 newspapers with local news. Now they have none and the regional big-city paper only spouts syndicated news. So, I guess I was naive. More money and resources pouring into something don't mean better access to the "consumer". > Once broadband took off, with always-on connectivity, this should have > been mitigated--but alas, IPv4 depletion and that demonic invention called > NAT screwed it up all over again. I've often thought the same thing, but now I wonder. Is it NAT keeping everyone suppressed behind dynamic translation or is it more that 80% of the people on the net are just consuming media and since they don't clamor for equal "real" IP access, the ISPs simply don't care about that. > Of course, if class A and B address blocks weren't handed out like candy > to children in the early days, IPv4 might have lasted longer. But that's > a whole other discussion. I still hate Network Solutions and all the NICs for that, too. However, it was bound to happen one way or another. The math (internet population to ipv4 availability) doesn't work. So, I guess I should get over it. > IPv6 _should_ fix this, but trusting the telcos and tier 1 providers to > not screw up the transition is tantamount to an ardent belief in bigfoot, > the Loch Ness monster, and cold fusion. I used to give presentations on IPv6. My talk was very skeptical of the potential it promises and even more suspicious of all the QoS features that look awfully like what corporates want to make sure "free" content is basically slow and useless. I used to have a healthy dose of fear that IPv6 would make the situation a bit worse because of how ISPs would use the internal features. However, nowadays despite all kinds of pronouncements from Cisco and other network "geniuses" that "we have to do it! There is no choice! It's coming tomorrow. It's already widespread!" If I had a BS flag I'd throw it. The proof of their consummate failure to get IPv6 into any kind of widespread use is very evident to those who look. There is a discussion of this on Reddit that pretty well hits the mark. Even the pro-ipv6 folks say things like "Oh come on, I've been running it for years [dual stack] and we have 25% of our users on it already! It's not a failure" Oh Ohhhhhkhay. https://www.reddit.com/r/networking/comments/2w5u9o/biggest_failure_in_it_ipv6/ > IMO, bandwidth should be bandwidth: it's none of the ISP's business which > direction it goes in or what I'm using it for (as long as it's legal). Remember the old cry of "Information wants to be free!" ? It still rings true.... in the wilderness. > This is why I pay in excess of $300/month for a T1 line and a /27, as well > as ADSL with a /28 (from a local provider that doesn't care if I run > "servers" or not). I'd do the same thing if I wasn't such a tightwad or didn't have friends that did as you do who let me host with them. It's definitely very sub-optimal and expensive for no good reason. > I actually run a small neighborhood ISP that provides such a service Cool. Is it over wireless or how do you do it? > in that it's enthusiast-friendly, provides end-to-end connectivity, > provides shell accounts, a gopher server, a (text-only) USENET feed, has > finger and talk enabled on the various old servers (SunOS, HP-UX, Solaris, > 4.2BSD, etc.). Bless you sir. I wish I lived in your hood, then. > I also block video content, Facebook, and all the rather cancerous > bandwidth drains of the modern commercial Internet. Ha! Good! > I also miss: gopher, archie, veronica, and WAIS Yes! I used all those as well. I wasn't a big gopher user but I logged many hours with archie and veronica. I would mention ICB, but since IRC is still going strong, I certainly won't whine about that. I still celebrate the vitality of the current IRC nets. > The downward spiral after the commercialization of the Internet was > precipitous and alarmingly rapid: the vapidity of online exchanges quickly > reached fever pitch as more and more blockheads flooded the network. I agree, and it wasn't just individual blockheads, it was bad actors and corporations in a gold-rush mentality too. There was more than just an economic crash in 1999 it also represented a crashing of what the Internet had represented up to that point. It seems to be a process much like gentrification of a neighborhood. The same stuff has happened to some unnamed OS projects, too. The leader talks about minimalism and technical community in 1993 then flips a b**** and presides over massive mega-daemons running systems with binary logs and gobbling up as many small-is-beautiful services as possible. Heresy. > Prior to that, the sense of community and mutual trust was astonishing. *nod* Especially when you compare it to the present state of the art. I suppose if you were 19 you might point to social media and "interconnectedness" that comes from that. However, I really don't feel it when the corporate overlords run the services with the NSA breathing down our necks. The idea was to have a truly "peer to peer" system where the peers are first class citizens with equal access. > We didn't have to worry about security nearly as much, since most of us > were incredibly grateful to have access to such a resource in the first > place. Remember the "Morris Worm" ? That's a good example. Yeah, it was self-replicating code but it did.... nothing. Any negative side effect was just from the rapid spreading and system resources it took. Nowadays, folks create viruses that encrypt and/or destroy the target for ransom the minute they can write 3 lines of code in Visual Basic. The level of malice and thuggery have gone way up. > Yep. And the programming manual would come with (gasp) BIOS source > listings. ... and it opened up so many possibilities. Look at what that and a low price did for the C64. It's "scene" is still somewhat healthy with so many loyal fans. I never owned one and don't know that much about them, but I respect those folks. > kindergarten-level fold-out poster showing you where to plug in the > keyboard. ... or nothing but a notecard saying "Go online to http://kindergarten-crap-docs.com/hardly_anything for documentation!" I love the excuse, too. "It's better for the environment!" Ugh. > Even serious programming tools have more text in the license agreement > than they do in the printed docs. That's great news if you are a blood sucking lawyer. However, it's not so good if you want to use your compiler without fear or stepping on a legal landmine buried on page 31, subsection 8, paragraph 4. > Heh... I dropped out of college because of this trend. My so-called > "data structures" course was in reality just "Modula-2 Programming 101". I dropped out in my 4th year for the same reason. I got sick of listening to incompetant failures (with a few exceptions) talking about failed ideas and failed languages while I watched my friends making 6x the income with no degree or training at all (late 90s). It was time to strike while the iron was hot. I work with people who had great academic experiences, but then again they went to good schools - some of the same ones I was accepted to but wasn't willing to rack up 250k in debt to attend. I don't talk to anyone over 50 about college/uni - most of them have no idea what it's like now and spout establishment BS. Only my younger friends and younger brothers understand this I talked my brothers out of philosophy and history majors into ChemE. They graduate next year and they may be the only ones amoung their classmates finding jobs, too (according to them, not me). > I found that I was better served by buying old textbooks and studying on > my own time, and getting mentored by seasoned veterans. Same here. I do some woodworking and when I go to classes, say to learn dovetailing, the #1 thing I come away glad to have learned was the tips and tricks from the guys who've already mastered it. Plus, when you sit down and read a text book or manual, you aren't doing it to pass a test - you are doing it to master the material. I found out to my sorrow that those aren't the same things. So, now I focus only on the latter. > Very true. Trumpet Winsock was an exercise in frustration: but I got > turned on to UNIX very early on. Fortunately, so did I. I guess we do catch some breaks in life :-) Thank goodness for the BSDs, or I'd be even more cynical. There is some good left on the net, but it's sadly not in the same places anymore, and I now know there is no guarantee anything will go on untarnished forever. That's just a process of maturing, I suppose. Thanks for that post. Very cathartic. Glad I'm not the only one. :-) -Swift From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 14:38:34 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:38:34 -0500 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: <57191D90.1040605@bitsavers.org> References: <57191D90.1040605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > I have two front panels for a similar system. > Think you could take some pictures? The lone picture I have of the H800 isn't a close-up of the panel, and I'd very much like to see what it looks like up close. It is a 24-bit mini. Docs are on bitsavers. Started out as a company called > Datacraft before Harris bought them. > Huh, sure enough. Many of its registers are 24-bit, but the memory is 48-bits wide. A "super-minicomputer", they claimed. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/harris/0830007-000_Series_800_Reference_Man_Aug79.pdf I'd be happy to dump the microcode/PROMs when I get some time, perhaps over the summer. Kyle From ethan at 757.org Thu Apr 21 14:46:38 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 15:46:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <5718E8FB.1040001@pico-systems.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5718C1E5.7030601@gmail.com> <5718E8FB.1040001@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I used to have this thing called a MasPar MP-2. It hung from a Decstation 5000 IIRC. Had the whole system, but the PSU in the MasPar box went bad. Sold it to someone in Florida IIRC. -- Ethan O'Toole From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 15:06:55 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:06:55 -0700 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-04-20 11:10 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> ... >> Ok, this one's from the 70s, and it's a large, external unit rather than >> a single board, but I have a Floating Point Systems AP-120B, essentially >> an array processor for fast floating point operations. There's a bit of >> information here: >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FPS_AP-120B >> > > Impressive! I guess documentation would be quite a challenge. > There are docs on Bitsavers, at least for programming it. Not enough information to build the interface to the host machine, though. I also have an AMT DAP 610 (similar to this: http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/fixed_pages/AMT_DAP.html only with 64x64 processors instead of a mere (hah) 32x32). It's actually a SCSI device the size of a refrigerator. I have it hooked to a Sun IPX because I find the size differential between host and coprocessor to be amusing. It's currently running, but I haven't yet spent too much time learning AMT's parallel FORTRAN variant to do anything fun with it. It renders the Mandelbrot set in full color quite quickly, though. (And now that the weather's heating up, I've missed my window for running it for any period of time :)) > > It seems like the sort of thing you'd want to do ray tracing on in the > TRON (1983) era. I wonder if there were CGI users of it. A cursory search doesn't reveal any uses in CGI (but I agree it would be suited for it), but there were a good number of applications in image processing. - Josh > > > --Toby > > > > >> I'd love to get it running one of these days, just need +5V at 100A and >> a set of interface boards for a PDP-11... >> >> - Josh >> >> >> > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 21 15:18:05 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:18:05 -0700 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> Would the Palantir 68K ISA OCR boards be considered as high-performance? There was also, IIRC, a NSC 32016 board made by someone. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 21 14:55:20 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 12:55:20 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600/Cyber 73 Memories - WAS: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A19F@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A19F@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <57193028.7010106@sydex.com> On 04/21/2016 11:04 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > I think that you were remembering the console of one of the Control > Data 6000/Cyber-70 series computers that you may have seen somewhere. > This series of Control Data machines were famous for their consoles > with two large, round, green-phosphor monitors that used vector > drawn-characters (generated by one of the Peripheral Processors). > Most of the normal system screens were all text, but there were some > special programs written (including a nice graphical chess game, a > little program that would put up eyes on the screens that would look > around and blink, and some others that don't come to mind at the > moment. You forgot BAT - the baseball game. Chess 3.0 used the display, but I believe that the pieces and board were formed from characters. During my tenure at CDC SSD, I wrote quite a bit of CP and PP code for these beasts. The 6000 series systems were recognizable as simple beige and gray cabinetry. The CYBERs are more wood-grain and blue glass. As I recall the systems numbering from low to high end: CYBER 72 - 1 CYBER 73 CPU with extra "wait" states, mostly as a marketing gimmick to sell at a lower price than the 73. Most CEs knew how to disable the slowdown, but were told in no uncertain terms that doing so for a customer was a capital offense and would not be tolerated. 6400 = CYBER 73- Jim Thorton-designed "plain" CPU; unified arithmetic/logical unit, no instruction "stack". Timing very straightforward to calculate. 6500 = two 6400 CPUs in the same box, only one of which could be in monitor/supervisor mode at any time. Shared memory. 6600 = CYBER 74 - Seymour Cray's multiple funcitonal unit CPU, with a primitive instruction cache and scheduler. 6700 = one 6600 CPU and one 6400 CPU in the same box, shared memory. 6415 - a 6400 with missing PPUs and minimum central memory--which really had to be a marketing gimmick, since the only thing that really defined a PPU was a couple of registers, channel interface and a 4KW core module--the rest of the logic was time-shared by all PPUs. There were other oddball QSEs, extra PPU versions, etc. I've been told that S/N 1 6600 gave different floating-point results from subsequent systems. Ten was a number that figured into various aspects. The clock was nomially 10 MHz; a minor cycle was therefore 100 nsec and a major cycle 1 usec. Each central memory word was 60 bits, holding 10 6-bit characters. As mentioned, there were 10 PPUs, with 12-bit memory words, so 5 PPU words comprised on CPU word. Initially, the maximum central memory size was 131KW; late in the series, a 262KW option was added, necessitating extensive code changes, as some code treated the 18-bit addresses as signed quantities, not unsigned. Arithmetic was ones' complement. User programs occupied contiguous memory; an individual user had an "exchange package" that reflected its register contents as well as field length and relocation address. Context changes were performed by an "exchange jump" instruction initiated from either any PPU or the CPU (if the CEJ option was installed). It swapped the contents of the exchange package with the working registers. What was surprising is how long the architecture lasted well into the 1980s, given the non-paging/non segmented memory management and oddball word size. For a couple of years, I worked on the development a system using up to 4 CPUs with a common 4MW of bulk core (ECS). Since ECS transfers, after an initial startup overhead ran at full memory speed, a model was contrived that divided programs up into modules to create "chains", with inter-module communication, each module resident in either ECS or in a CPU. The idea is that you could swap a module in where resources were available. Modules did not talk to PPUs as was the case for normal programs, but rather to a per-CPU I/O supervisor, which then communicated with PPUs. All this to get a realtime transaction-oriented facility implemented on a system that was designed for batch processing. It was interesting--and sadly, lost in the sands of time. --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Apr 21 15:21:51 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:21:51 -0700 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> Message-ID: <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> There was also an 80286 coprocessor board for various VAXen. Let?s not also forget the various 370 and 390 co-processor boards that could be put into PC?s at various times to allow one to turn the PC into a small mainframe capable of running mainframe software (including the OS). TTFN - Guy > On Apr 21, 2016, at 1:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Would the Palantir 68K ISA OCR boards be considered as high-performance? > There was also, IIRC, a NSC 32016 board made by someone. > > --Chuck > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 21 15:36:55 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:36:55 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600/Cyber 73 Memories - WAS: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: <57193028.7010106@sydex.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A19F@mail.bensene.com> <57193028.7010106@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 21, 2016, at 3:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ... > Ten was a number that figured into various aspects. The clock was > nomially 10 MHz; In serial numbers 1-7 only nominally -- the clock was a ring oscillator, tuned by tweaking wire lengths. Starting with serial number 8, there's a crystal oscillator (in the ECS controller if ECS is present, otherwise in the CPU). > ... > Initially, the maximum central memory size was 131KW; late in the > series, a 262KW option was added, necessitating extensive code changes, I thought the 70 series (6000 series) was 131 kW max because the top bit is the "ECS active" bit. 170 series makes it 262k. > ... > For a couple of years, I worked on the development a system using up to > 4 CPUs with a common 4MW of bulk core (ECS). Since ECS transfers, after > an initial startup overhead ran at full memory speed, a model was > contrived that divided programs up into modules to create "chains", with > inter-module communication, each module resident in either ECS or in a > CPU. Neat. PLATO made extensive use of ECS, swapping per-terminal state and programs in and out of ECS for fast interactive service. ECS was also where most I/O buffers went, with PPUs doing disk and terminal I/O from/to ECS rather than central memory. A dual mainframe 6500 system (4 "unified" processors total) did a decent job supporting 600 concurrent logged-in terminals, out of a total of 1008 connected. That was around 1977 when I worked on that system at the U of Illinois. paul From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Apr 21 16:01:14 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 21:01:14 +0000 Subject: CDC 6600/Cyber 73 Memories - WAS: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A19F@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED138E7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Paul Koning Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 11:48 AM > I don't think there are any Cyber 70 (CDC 6000 series) systems still > running, but there's one in emulation, running PLATO. See cyber1.org. > It even has emulated console tubes... I can't speak to Cyber 70 systems, but the 6500 at LCM runs SCOPE, KRONOS, and NOS quite nicely. Getting it to this point was a very big project. You should come visit, and talk to the principal engineer who did most of the work of making it run. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 16:13:18 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 15:13:18 -0600 (MDT) Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Let?s not also forget the various 370 and 390 co-processor boards that > could be put into PC?s at various times to allow one to turn the PC into a > small mainframe capable of running mainframe software (including the OS). I can't forget because I never knew that! I'm not always that interested in IBM 3x0 systems, but that's a really cool concept. I'm guessing they were microchannel boards that plugged into the IBM PS/2 line ? I can't believe IBM would have let you run them on any old PC (given the clone wars at the time). That blows my mind. I always thought it'd be cool to be able to extend a standard SGI system with a compute brick from an Origin. In some ways you could use a craylink setup to get close, but nothing as cool as an add-in board for a whole 'nother platform. -Swift From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 21 16:22:18 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 17:22:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX Message-ID: <20160421212218.CDB2C18C0E6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > It's actually a SCSI device the size of a refrigerator. Given all the largish machines you have, you must have either i) a warehouse, or ii) a very large basement and a tolerant SO! :-) Noel From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 16:23:36 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:23:36 -0700 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <20160421212218.CDB2C18C0E6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160421212218.CDB2C18C0E6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Josh Dersch > > > It's actually a SCSI device the size of a refrigerator. > > Given all the largish machines you have, you must have either i) a > warehouse, > or ii) a very large basement and a tolerant SO! :-) > > Noel > iii) A large-ish basment, a *very* tolerant SO and absolutely no free space :). - Josh From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Apr 21 16:30:54 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:30:54 -0700 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 21, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > > On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Let?s not also forget the various 370 and 390 co-processor boards that >> could be put into PC?s at various times to allow one to turn the PC into a >> small mainframe capable of running mainframe software (including the OS). > > I can't forget because I never knew that! I'm not always that interested in > IBM 3x0 systems, but that's a really cool concept. I'm guessing they were > microchannel boards that plugged into the IBM PS/2 line ? I can't believe > IBM would have let you run them on any old PC (given the clone wars at the > time). That blows my mind. > Actually, the first one was called XT/370 because it plugged into an XT! Then came AT/370. Those were obviously ISA boards. Then came some variants that were microchannel. The final iterations were PCI based. The microchannel and PCI based boards went into systems that ran OS/2 or AIX (P/390 and R/390 respectively). IBM didn?t sell the boards separately from the system (ie they delivered all of the HW). There were also various licenses (uCode for the 390 board and various drivers for AIX (RS/6000 only) and OS/2. And then of course there was the OS that you had to license from IBM (which generally was about the same cost as the HW?I think the base OS/390 was ~$28,000 (that?s just the OS folks?you still needed the HW). TTFN - Guy From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Apr 21 16:34:05 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:34:05 -0700 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <001801d19c15$8838b8c0$98aa2a40$@net> > Actually, the first one was called XT/370 because it plugged into an > XT! > Then came AT/370. Those were obviously ISA boards. Then came some > variants that were microchannel. The final iterations were PCI based. > Guy, I am not sure about the other systems but my understanding of the XT/370 and AT/370 was that they were glorified terminals i.e. instead of having a terminal and a PC on your desk you could have it all in one. Is this wrong? -Ali From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 16:35:21 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:35:21 -0700 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <001801d19c15$8838b8c0$98aa2a40$@net> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> <001801d19c15$8838b8c0$98aa2a40$@net> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 2:34 PM, Ali wrote: > > Actually, the first one was called XT/370 because it plugged into an > > XT! > > Then came AT/370. Those were obviously ISA boards. Then came some > > variants that were microchannel. The final iterations were PCI based. > > > > Guy, > > I am not sure about the other systems but my understanding of the XT/370 > and AT/370 was that they were glorified terminals i.e. instead of having a > terminal and a PC on your desk you could have it all in one. Is this wrong? > I think you're thinking of the 3270 PC and 3270 AT, which was pretty much what you described here... - Josh > > -Ali > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Apr 21 16:39:29 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:39:29 -0700 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> <001801d19c15$8838b8c0$98aa2a40$@net> Message-ID: <3B147A4D-61DD-43C7-AFAB-BB3FBFDF8E8D@shiresoft.com> > On Apr 21, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 2:34 PM, Ali wrote: > >>> Actually, the first one was called XT/370 because it plugged into an >>> XT! >>> Then came AT/370. Those were obviously ISA boards. Then came some >>> variants that were microchannel. The final iterations were PCI based. >>> >> >> Guy, >> >> I am not sure about the other systems but my understanding of the XT/370 >> and AT/370 was that they were glorified terminals i.e. instead of having a >> terminal and a PC on your desk you could have it all in one. Is this wrong? >> > > I think you're thinking of the 3270 PC and 3270 AT, which was pretty much > what you described here? The XT/370 and AT/370 had coprocessor boards that allowed 370 code (and a heavily modified version of VM/370) to be run on the machine itself. They were *not* just glorified terminals. ;-) TTFN - Guy From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Apr 21 16:42:18 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:42:18 -0700 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> <00 1801d19c15$883 8b8c0$98aa2a40$@net> Message-ID: <002201d19c16$ae35ccb0$0aa16610$@net> > > I think you're thinking of the 3270 PC and 3270 AT, which was pretty > much what you described here... > > - Josh Josh, So I am. Thanks for the clarification. BTW: for those wanting more info on the AT/370 here is a good link to some IBM brochures - http://typewritten.org/Articles/IBM/g520-5087-1.pdf. -Ali From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 16:44:10 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 18:44:10 -0300 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> <001801d19c15$8838b8c0$98aa2a40$@net> Message-ID: <571949AA.2010207@gmail.com> On 2016-04-21 6:35 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 2:34 PM, Ali wrote: > >>> Actually, the first one was called XT/370 because it plugged into an >>> XT! >>> Then came AT/370. Those were obviously ISA boards. Then came some >>> variants that were microchannel. The final iterations were PCI based. >>> >> Guy, >> >> I am not sure about the other systems but my understanding of the XT/370 >> and AT/370 was that they were glorified terminals i.e. instead of having a >> terminal and a PC on your desk you could have it all in one. Is this wrong? >> > I think you're thinking of the 3270 PC and 3270 AT, which was pretty much > what you described here... > > - Josh > No the 3270 PC and 3270 AT where a special configuration for 3270 terminal emulation it conatined a special keyboard with more keys that the normal keyboard and connected to a special adapter card in the system. These machines also had a different display and of course came with a 3270 emulation adapter. There was definitely a XT/370 and likely an AT/370 as well the processor on the the 370 card in these machines was rumoured to be a modified Motorola 68K with special microcode to execute 370 instructions. These machines ran a modified version of VM. The 9371 system used PS/2 mod 80 system boards for I/O processors and had a microchannel card sandwich in them that was the 370 processor, I do not believe they could run MVS but they could run VM and VSE. Paul. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 16:53:35 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 15:53:35 -0600 (MDT) Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <571949AA.2010207@gmail.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> <001801d19c15$8838b8c0$98aa2a40$@net> <571949AA.2010207@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, Paul Berger wrote: > No the 3270 PC and 3270 AT where a special configuration for 3270 terminal > emulation it conatined a special keyboard with more keys that the normal > keyboard and connected to a special adapter card in the system. I never understood the dynamics of 3720 emulation. Was it *just* a terminal emulation protocol ala vt100 ? The main thing that confused me was the existence of these emulation cards that folks are mentioning. I remember seeing "3270 boards" (as folks in the know gestured at them). They appeared to run on some kind of twinax, IIRC (been a while and I was probably 14 years old). Were these extra keys on the keyboard the cruxt of the issue ? ie.. the card was there so you could use a "real" 3270 keyboard ? Why did folks install those boards just to run "3720 emulation" ? Couldn't they have just bought something like Reflections and done it all in software ? Can someone school me and tell me what I'm missing about these boards or 3270 in general. I know little of IBM mainframes, obviously. I'm a Unix zealot, so that figures, but I'm still curious about them. Thanks! -Swift From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Apr 21 16:55:23 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:55:23 -0700 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <571949AA.2010207@gmail.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> <001801d19c15$8838b8c0$98aa2a40$@net> <571949AA.2010207@gmail.co m> Message-ID: <392CBDC4-C94D-42DA-9FBB-BB0C98C750EF@shiresoft.com> > On Apr 21, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > > > > There was definitely a XT/370 and likely an AT/370 as well the processor on the the 370 card in these machines was rumoured to be a modified Motorola 68K with special microcode to execute 370 instructions. These machines ran a modified version of VM. It was more than a rumor. If I recall, there was an article about it in the IBM Systems Journal. > > The 9371 system used PS/2 mod 80 system boards for I/O processors and had a microchannel card sandwich in them that was the 370 processor, I do not believe they could run MVS but they could run VM and VSE. I recall seeing a few of the prototypes in one of our labs in Boca. We had them because the I/O was SCSI and we were doing the cached microchannel SCSI cards (they weren?t specific to the 9371). I did the AIX PS/2 drivers for those cards. TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Apr 21 17:02:59 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 15:02:59 -0700 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> <001801d19c15$8838b8c0$98aa2a40$@net> <571949AA.2010207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6795E623-FA6D-45A9-95AF-5D809BA96F0F@shiresoft.com> > On Apr 21, 2016, at 2:53 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, Paul Berger wrote: >> No the 3270 PC and 3270 AT where a special configuration for 3270 terminal >> emulation it conatined a special keyboard with more keys that the normal >> keyboard and connected to a special adapter card in the system. > > I never understood the dynamics of 3720 emulation. Was it *just* a terminal > emulation protocol ala vt100 ? The main thing that confused me was the > existence of these emulation cards that folks are mentioning. I remember > seeing "3270 boards" (as folks in the know gestured at them). They appeared > to run on some kind of twinax, IIRC (been a while and I was probably 14 > years old). Were these extra keys on the keyboard the cruxt of the issue ? > ie.. the card was there so you could use a "real" 3270 keyboard ? > > Why did folks install those boards just to run "3720 emulation" ? Couldn't > they have just bought something like Reflections and done it all in > software ? Can someone school me and tell me what I'm missing about these > boards or 3270 in general. I know little of IBM mainframes, obviously. I'm a > Unix zealot, so that figures, but I'm still curious about them. Thanks! > 3270 terminals are what are termed CUT terminals (can?t remember what the acronym means) but were connected to a controller via coax. The terminals are ?page mode?. Basically all of the editing on the screen is done locally and then when an ?attention? key is pressed the controller can request the contents of the screen. This is a *very* abbreviated version of how they work. The 3270 emulators that ran on PCs required a 3270 board. That provided the connectivity to the terminal controller (something like a 3274 or 3174). The PC handled all of the screen management and protocol interactions required by the the 3270 protocol. Because most of the editing was done locally a mainframe could handle 100?s of interactive terminals without a lot of horsepower since they only saw interactions when an ?attention? key was pressed. With the advent of TCP/IP on the 370/390/zSeries machines (both HW and SW) most physical 3270 terminals have gone away to be replaced by TN3270. TTFN - Guy From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 17:09:17 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 19:09:17 -0300 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> <001801d19c15$8838b8c0$98aa2a40$@net> <571949AA.2010207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57194F8D.4030900@gmail.com> On 2016-04-21 6:53 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, Paul Berger wrote: >> No the 3270 PC and 3270 AT where a special configuration for 3270 terminal >> emulation it conatined a special keyboard with more keys that the normal >> keyboard and connected to a special adapter card in the system. > I never understood the dynamics of 3720 emulation. Was it *just* a terminal > emulation protocol ala vt100 ? The main thing that confused me was the > existence of these emulation cards that folks are mentioning. I remember > seeing "3270 boards" (as folks in the know gestured at them). They appeared > to run on some kind of twinax, IIRC (been a while and I was probably 14 > years old). Were these extra keys on the keyboard the cruxt of the issue ? > ie.. the card was there so you could use a "real" 3270 keyboard ? The cards handled the communication protocol between the control unit and the terminal as well as having the appropriate line driver and receiver. The 3270 system used coax, I think you are thinking of 5250 emulation when you mention twinax. 5250 emulation was used to to connect to SS/34, S/36, S/38 and As/400. The 3270 or 5250 emulation card is just the adapter card that is appropriate for the connection just like you would use a RS-232 adapter to emulate a VT100, but these cards also handle all of the protocol where as for most serial terminal emulation most of the protocol would be handled by software. There was also 3270 terminal emulation that connected via a BiSync or SDLC adapter card as well. Yes I understand "a while ago" it has been at least 20 years since I have seen any of these machines. Yes the extra keys on the extra keys on the keyboard gave you a layout much like the later 3270 system keyboards, but not like the 3275,6,7,8, and 9 which had considerably fewer keys. The display was also a high quality display and it was likely attached to a special display adapter, since it could support the 3270 system vector graphics, but I don't recall what the used for display adapters. > > Why did folks install those boards just to run "3720 emulation" ? Couldn't > they have just bought something like Reflections and done it all in > software ? Can someone school me and tell me what I'm missing about these > boards or 3270 in general. I know little of IBM mainframes, obviously. I'm a > Unix zealot, so that figures, but I'm still curious about them. Thanks! Yeah me too now after supporting UNIX system for more than 25 years, but I am more a hardware person than software, but I started out fixing 3270 terminals as well as other IBM terminal products that connected to mainframes. > > -Swift Paul. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 17:22:08 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:22:08 -0600 (MDT) Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <6795E623-FA6D-45A9-95AF-5D809BA96F0F@shiresoft.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> <001801d19c15$8838b8c0$98aa2a40$@net> <571949AA.2010207@gmail.com> <6795E623-FA6D-45A9-95AF-5D809BA96F0F@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > 3270 terminals are what are termed CUT terminals (can?t remember what the > acronym means) but were connected to a controller via coax. Ah okay. Someone told me that the voltage on those was enough to feel/shock you. Was that true, or just a myth ? > The terminals are ?page mode?. Basically all of the editing on the screen > is done locally and then when an ?attention? key is pressed the > controller can request the contents of the screen. Ah, so there was some electrical signaling going on to the terminal controller and that couldn't be done in sofware, if I'm understanding you correctly. Hmm, considering all the limitations at the time, it's seems like that whole 'buffer <-> forward <-> update' mechanism isn't a bad idea. > With the advent of TCP/IP on the 370/390/zSeries machines (both HW and SW) > most physical 3270 terminals have gone away to be replaced by TN3270. Ah, okay and this is where software emulation became an option, I take it. I had to look up the "TN" part, I didn't find anything solid, but from some Wikipedia chatter I take it to mean "TelNet". Also guessing they created some out-of-band channel to send all the stuff that used to rely on electrical signaling. Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain that. -Swift From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 17:22:14 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 17:22:14 -0500 Subject: Using a Gotek-type flash floppy emulator inside a C1581 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have you tried the #c-64 channel on ircnet? It's fairly well-populated, with a lot of knowledgeable folks and demo-scene types around. I'm sure someone there can assist you with the specifics. I for one have never involved myself in the SD / IEC stuff. I seem to do just fine with emulators and PC-side tools like cbm4linux (or cbm4win) and DroiD64. DroiD64 is an excellent cross-platform Java tool for working with .d64 and other CBM disk image formats. Tried it? On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 1:52 PM, Eric Christopherson < echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > I wonder if there are any Commodore people out here who could tell me what > practical differences would result from using a Gotek-type > flash-memory-based floppy emulator in place of the C1581's mechanism, vs. > using Jim Brain's uIEC-SD or similar. > > I don't know if the thing would even work in a 1581 case, or if Commodore > DOS or JiffyDOS would work with it; but if so, I wonder if the DOS would > work slightly more like the real thing, because it would be actual > C=/JiffyDOS running on an actual 6502, instead of something new running on > a microcontroller. I understand that you wouldn't get any of the > directory-changing commands et al. from the SD2IEC firmware. > > -- > Eric Christopherson > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 17:29:14 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 23:29:14 +0100 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <3B147A4D-61DD-43C7-AFAB-BB3FBFDF8E8D@shiresoft.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> <001801d19c15$88 38b8c0$98aa2a40$@net> <3B147A4D-61DD-43C7-AFAB-BB3FBFDF8E8D@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <013501d19c1d$3e555760$bb000620$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy > Sotomayor > Sent: 21 April 2016 22:39 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: > SGI ONYX > > > > On Apr 21, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 2:34 PM, Ali wrote: > > > >>> Actually, the first one was called XT/370 because it plugged into an > >>> XT! > >>> Then came AT/370. Those were obviously ISA boards. Then came some > >>> variants that were microchannel. The final iterations were PCI based. > >>> > >> > >> Guy, > >> > >> I am not sure about the other systems but my understanding of the > >> XT/370 and AT/370 was that they were glorified terminals i.e. instead > >> of having a terminal and a PC on your desk you could have it all in one. Is > this wrong? > >> > > > > I think you're thinking of the 3270 PC and 3270 AT, which was pretty > > much what you described here? > > The XT/370 and AT/370 had coprocessor boards that allowed 370 code (and a > heavily modified version of VM/370) to be run on the machine itself. They > were I don't think the CMS was "heavily" modified, modified certainly, but heavily modified I don't think so... > *not* just glorified terminals. ;-) > > TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Apr 21 17:29:44 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 15:29:44 -0700 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> <001801d19c15$8838b8c0$98aa2a40$@net> <571949AA.2010207@gmail.com> <6795E623-FA6D-45A9-95AF-5D809BA96F0F@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5A6A280A-3544-41C1-B1C6-FF1DC8412A4A@shiresoft.com> > On Apr 21, 2016, at 3:22 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > > Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain that. > That?s why we?re here! ;-) Thanks for listening! TTFN - Guy From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 18:11:37 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 20:11:37 -0300 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <013501d19c1d$3e555760$bb000620$@gmail.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> <42D580F7-DF9C-4F8C-872E-BF088FB992BC@shiresoft.com> <001801d19c15$88 38b8c0$98aa2a40$@net> <3B147A4D-61DD-43C7-AFAB-BB3FBFDF8E8D@shiresoft.com> <013501d19c1d$3e555760$bb000620$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57195E29.5020602@gmail.com> On 2016-04-21 7:29 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy >> Sotomayor >> Sent: 21 April 2016 22:39 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: >> SGI ONYX >> >> >>> On Apr 21, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 2:34 PM, Ali wrote: >>> >>>>> Actually, the first one was called XT/370 because it plugged into an >>>>> XT! >>>>> Then came AT/370. Those were obviously ISA boards. Then came some >>>>> variants that were microchannel. The final iterations were PCI based. >>>>> >>>> Guy, >>>> >>>> I am not sure about the other systems but my understanding of the >>>> XT/370 and AT/370 was that they were glorified terminals i.e. instead >>>> of having a terminal and a PC on your desk you could have it all in one. Is >> this wrong? >>> I think you're thinking of the 3270 PC and 3270 AT, which was pretty >>> much what you described here? >> The XT/370 and AT/370 had coprocessor boards that allowed 370 code (and a >> heavily modified version of VM/370) to be run on the machine itself. They >> were > I don't think the CMS was "heavily" modified, modified certainly, but heavily modified I don't think so... > > >> *not* just glorified terminals. ;-) >> >> TTFN - Guy > The CMS probably was not modified much but the VM underneath it was. CMS is just the single user client OS that is commonly what people see when they log onto "VM". But VM is really a virtualisation manager that can run a number of guest operating systems, but in the case of the XT and AT 370 it seems to me it only supported a single CMS session. Paul. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 21 18:42:22 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:42:22 -0700 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: <57191D90.1040605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5719655E.1010109@bitsavers.org> On 4/21/16 12:38 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I'd be happy to dump the microcode/PROMs when I get some time, perhaps over > the summer. > > Kyle > thanks. I just saw the panels, so I'll pull them out for pics From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 21 18:33:55 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:33:55 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600/Cyber 73 Memories - WAS: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A19F@mail.bensene.com> <57193028.7010106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57196363.4000502@sydex.com> On 04/21/2016 01:36 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Apr 21, 2016, at 3:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> ... Ten was a number that figured into various aspects. The clock >> was nomially 10 MHz; > > In serial numbers 1-7 only nominally -- the clock was a ring > oscillator, tuned by tweaking wire lengths. Starting with serial > number 8, there's a crystal oscillator (in the ECS controller if ECS > is present, otherwise in the CPU). Yup, that's why I used the word "nominally". The clock distribution circuitry in the 6600 was a study all by itself. Mike Miller said that his first job right out of school was measuring the various loops on the back of the machine at Chippewa Falls to which Seymour had attached tags that simply said "tune". > I thought the 70 series (6000 series) was 131 kW max because the top > bit is the "ECS active" bit. 170 series makes it 262k. IIRC, the SCOPE aka. NOS/BE team at SVLOPS didn't have access to a real operational 170, so a 70 was jerry-rigged by the CEs there for development purposes. There was a lot of weird stuff at one time in Sunnyvale. We had the only extant STAR 1-Bs for a time, for example--mostly held together with chewing gum and baling wire, it seemed. Took hours to compile a kernel--if the machines stayed up that long. > Neat. PLATO made extensive use of ECS, swapping per-terminal state > and programs in and out of ECS for fast interactive service. ECS was > also where most I/O buffers went, with PPUs doing disk and terminal > I/O from/to ECS rather than central memory. A dual mainframe 6500 > system (4 "unified" processors total) did a decent job supporting 600 > concurrent logged-in terminals, out of a total of 1008 connected. > That was around 1977 when I worked on that system at the U of > Illinois. Was that UIUC? I processed some CYBER tapes from there a couple of years ago--there's an archivist there who uses us to retrieve contents of various dusty items. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 21 19:49:32 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 20:49:32 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600/Cyber 73 Memories - WAS: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED138E7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A19F@mail.bensene.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED138E7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 21, 2016, at 5:01 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 11:48 AM > >> I don't think there are any Cyber 70 (CDC 6000 series) systems still >> running, but there's one in emulation, running PLATO. See cyber1.org. >> It even has emulated console tubes... > > I can't speak to Cyber 70 systems, but the 6500 at LCM runs SCOPE, KRONOS, > and NOS quite nicely. Getting it to this point was a very big project. Sorry, I was unclear, I meant production machines. Yes, you've got yours, and that's quite an achievement. > You should come visit, and talk to the principal engineer who did most of > the work of making it run. Not sure if I'll get to your area, but if I do, I'll plan on that. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 21 19:50:36 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 20:50:36 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600/Cyber 73 Memories - WAS: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: <57196363.4000502@sydex.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A19F@mail.bensene.com> <57193028.7010106@sydex.com> <57196363.4000502@sydex.com> Message-ID: <89D83B68-2702-4B77-843A-44B3A8AEAD85@comcast.net> > On Apr 21, 2016, at 7:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ... >> Neat. PLATO made extensive use of ECS, swapping per-terminal state >> and programs in and out of ECS for fast interactive service. ECS was >> also where most I/O buffers went, with PPUs doing disk and terminal >> I/O from/to ECS rather than central memory. A dual mainframe 6500 >> system (4 "unified" processors total) did a decent job supporting 600 >> concurrent logged-in terminals, out of a total of 1008 connected. >> That was around 1977 when I worked on that system at the U of >> Illinois. > > Was that UIUC? I processed some CYBER tapes from there a couple of > years ago--there's an archivist there who uses us to retrieve contents > of various dusty items. Yup. A couple of us helped put the PLATO copy running on the DtCyber emulator together, see cyber1.org. paul From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 20:30:38 2016 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 21:30:38 -0400 Subject: shell accounts [was RE: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED13730@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 1:45 PM, John Willis wrote: > > > > > That's another thing I remember and miss from those days... your > average > > > ISP would provide NNTP and UNIX shell accounts, as well as a few megs > of > > > space to put up a personal web site in ~/public_html. > > > > I still read Usenet newsgroups via GNUS under Emacs on my shell account > on > > Panix, an ISP located in Manhattan, and have a small web site hosted > there > > as well: > > > > http://www.panix.com/~alderson/index.html > > > > Some things are too important to relegate to a web browser. > Actually, I don't get this discussion at all. I had a panix account years ago.About the same time I ran a FULL suite of servers in my basement, DNS, STMP, HTTP & mailman. Then I realized that was just because I *could*, rather than I needed to or because it served any interesting historical purpose. I switched it all to outsourced services and never looked back. The bottom line is that what i really care about is the beauty of old hardware and the elegance of software that had to run in that limited environment. The speed/cost/accuracy tradeoff is the essence of software engineering. If I read information about it with Lynx rather than a modern browser, I only penalize myself. I reduce my bandwidth for some abstract notion of "purity". Look at it this way. Archeologists care about history, but they are smart enough to realize they don't have to write their papers in charcoal on cave walls. Do not conflate the subject matter with the medium to talk about it. I love ancient hardware, and I will use the best tools I have available to talk about it. Limiting myself to shell accounts and elm as a mail reader misses the point. We *live* in 2016. We talk about 1970. Using technology from 1990 is neither historically accurate, nor useful. > > > Rich > > > > This gives me a thought: I run a similar (but likely much smaller) ISP in > my neighborhood. > ISPs like Panix and my own ChivaNet should come up with some common > branding > indicating that we support traditional Internet values and services. Some > way for enthusiasts > who really care about "the Internet as it was meant to be" to separate the > wheat from the > chaff, and be smarter about bandwidth shopping. > From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 21:04:30 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 20:04:30 -0600 Subject: shell accounts [was RE: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED13730@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, April 21, 2016, Tony Aiuto wrote: > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 1:45 PM, John Willis > > wrote: > > > > > > > > That's another thing I remember and miss from those days... your > > average > > > > ISP would provide NNTP and UNIX shell accounts, as well as a few megs > > of > > > > space to put up a personal web site in ~/public_html. > > > > > > I still read Usenet newsgroups via GNUS under Emacs on my shell account > > on > > > Panix, an ISP located in Manhattan, and have a small web site hosted > > there > > > as well: > > > > > > http://www.panix.com/~alderson/index.html > > > > > > Some things are too important to relegate to a web browser. > > > > Actually, I don't get this discussion at all. I had a panix account years > ago.About the same time I ran a FULL suite of servers in my basement, DNS, > STMP, HTTP & mailman. Then I realized that was just because I *could*, > rather than I needed to or because it served any interesting historical > purpose. I switched it all to outsourced services and never looked back. Good for you? I enjoy doing those things, and don't see what would give you a reason to belittle someone who enjoys doing something else. > > The bottom line is that what i really care about is the beauty of old > hardware and the elegance of software that had to run in that limited > environment. The speed/cost/accuracy tradeoff is the essence of software > engineering. If I read information about it with Lynx rather than a modern > browser, I only penalize myself. I reduce my bandwidth for some abstract > notion of "purity". I don't think anyone suggested anything like this... I use a number of highly modern machines every day. > > Look at it this way. Archeologists care about history, but they are smart > enough to realize they don't have to write their papers in charcoal on cave > walls. Do not conflate the subject matter with the medium to talk about it. So retro internet is less valid as a focus of hobbyist enthusiasm than retro computers? I enjoy both, as well as modern computing. I love ancient hardware, and I will use the best tools I have available to > talk about it. Limiting myself to shell accounts and elm as a mail reader > misses the point. We *live* in 2016. We talk about 1970. Using technology > from 1990 is neither historically accurate, nor useful. How is it historically inaccurate for me to use 1990s technology to relive the times when I was first getting into computers to begin with? Again, I enjoy it, so you have no right to be a jerk and judge me for it... > > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > This gives me a thought: I run a similar (but likely much smaller) ISP in > > my neighborhood. > > ISPs like Panix and my own ChivaNet should come up with some common > > branding > > indicating that we support traditional Internet values and services. Some > > way for enthusiasts > > who really care about "the Internet as it was meant to be" to separate > the > > wheat from the > > chaff, and be smarter about bandwidth shopping. > > > -- *John P. Willis* Coherent Logic Development LLC M: 575.520.9542 O: 575.524.1034 chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com http://www.coherent-logic.com/ From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 22:15:46 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 20:15:46 -0700 Subject: Resolved: VAX-11/750 ECKAL (Cache/TB) Diagnostic failure Message-ID: <57199762.8050207@gmail.com> Hey all -- I resolved the weird failure I was seeing on my 11/750 with the Cache/TB diagnostic and since it was fairly random I thought I'd share it to save people from the future (hi, people from the future!) from going through the same machinations I did. Issue: ECKAL diagnostic loads, prints banner and halts after about a second with: 00003488 06 No other diagnostic is provided, and since there don't appear to be any listings or real documents covering the test, it's not particularly helpful. What I tried (prior to tonight): - Checked voltages. - Double-checked backplane for bent/shorted pins. - Cleaned and reseated every socketed chip (especially the gate arrays). On *all* boards. - Swapped in a spare L0003 (after cleaning, as above). - Swapped in all the other spares I have (one at a time, again, after cleaning). - Cleaned backplane with contact cleaner. - Removed 2nd UNIBUS card. - Tried a *third* L0003 card (labeled "GOOD" as of 1996 :)). No change in behavior whatsoever. Very odd. Very frustrating. So tonight I thought, hey, why not disconnect the UNIBUS just in case something odd is going on there. Pulled the Unibus jumper connecting the two backplanes, replaced with terminator. ECKAL diagnostic now runs and passes. So: This particular fault (at least in this case) is due to some oddity on the UNIBUS. I suspect a problem with NPG grants, but I'm going to have to go over this with a fine-toothed comb, it could be a bad controller in there doing something mean. Hope this helps someone at some future date... - Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 22:42:29 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 20:42:29 -0700 Subject: Resolved: VAX-11/750 ECKAL (Cache/TB) Diagnostic failure In-Reply-To: <57199762.8050207@gmail.com> References: <57199762.8050207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57199DA5.1010909@gmail.com> And to reply to my own mail: The issue was an improperly installed TU80 controller (it wasn't me!). The NPG jumper was not removed from the backplane when the card was installed. So: Double-check your grants, even when testing something seemingly unrelated, like your cache. Lesson learned. - Josh On 4/21/16 8:15 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > I resolved the weird failure I was seeing on my 11/750 with the > Cache/TB diagnostic and since it was fairly random I thought I'd share > it to save people from the future (hi, people from the future!) from > going through the same machinations I did. > > Issue: ECKAL diagnostic loads, prints banner and halts after about a > second with: > > 00003488 06 > > No other diagnostic is provided, and since there don't appear to be > any listings or real documents covering the test, it's not > particularly helpful. > > What I tried (prior to tonight): > > - Checked voltages. > - Double-checked backplane for bent/shorted pins. > - Cleaned and reseated every socketed chip (especially the gate > arrays). On *all* boards. > - Swapped in a spare L0003 (after cleaning, as above). > - Swapped in all the other spares I have (one at a time, again, after > cleaning). > - Cleaned backplane with contact cleaner. > - Removed 2nd UNIBUS card. > - Tried a *third* L0003 card (labeled "GOOD" as of 1996 :)). > > No change in behavior whatsoever. Very odd. Very frustrating. > > So tonight I thought, hey, why not disconnect the UNIBUS just in case > something odd is going on there. Pulled the Unibus jumper connecting > the two backplanes, replaced with terminator. > > ECKAL diagnostic now runs and passes. > > So: This particular fault (at least in this case) is due to some > oddity on the UNIBUS. I suspect a problem with NPG grants, but I'm > going to have to go over this with a fine-toothed comb, it could be a > bad controller in there doing something mean. > > Hope this helps someone at some future date... > - Josh > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 21 23:18:52 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 23:18:52 -0500 Subject: Z80 /WAIT signal question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5719A62C.4000302@pico-systems.com> On 04/21/2016 12:36 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > A friend building a Z80 system asked me about whether the Z80 /WAIT > signal has any effect during machine cycles that aren't > memory/IO/intack cycles (i.e., neither /MREQ and /IORQ asserted). The > user manual only describes the use of /WAIT for adding wait states, so > I expect it probably only affects mem/IO/intack cycles, but I can't > find anything definitive in the user manual. > > Oh, boy! I ought to know this one, but really don't. I never tried to use it except on some kind of data cycle. It could, possibly, depend on what implementation of the Z-80 you are using. I built some battery-powered stuff using a Harris Z-80 clone that was all CMOS. Some timings were a bit different from a Zilog Z-80. Jon From a1a96636 at telus.net Thu Apr 21 14:03:56 2016 From: a1a96636 at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 15:03:56 -0400 Subject: Z80 /WAIT signal question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I do know that the Wait signal was used by the Fluke 90 tester so it could be clamped on top of an in circuit Z80 and run memory and I/O tests while the CPU was doing its regular operations. On vacation so haven't easy access to the operators manual for the Fluke 90 though... John :-#)# > On Apr 21, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > A friend building a Z80 system asked me about whether the Z80 /WAIT > signal has any effect during machine cycles that aren't > memory/IO/intack cycles (i.e., neither /MREQ and /IORQ asserted). The > user manual only describes the use of /WAIT for adding wait states, so > I expect it probably only affects mem/IO/intack cycles, but I can't > find anything definitive in the user manual. > > I'm hoping someone can save me the time of hooking up a logic analyzer > and running the experiment. > > Thanks! > Eric From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 18:17:23 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 19:17:23 -0400 Subject: Vt 103 / lsi 11/23 marketed as a desktop late 1980 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Prior to the DEC Rainbow, Chrislin Industries was marketing the 11/23 with vt103 as a desktop computer. This is a 3rd party vendor. Maybe they were on to something... Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 18:24:00 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 19:24:00 -0400 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX Message-ID: > > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 20:08:56 -0400 > From: Toby Thain > Subject: Re: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - > was Re: SGI ONYX > > On 2016-04-20 8:02 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > > > > I have a quad-860 VME board for Sun systems in my collection. > > > > Do you have the development environment for it? > > --Toby > Yes, but it is on a Sun 4/260 that us buried in my collection. -- Michael Thompson From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 18:49:48 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 19:49:48 -0400 Subject: Ibm s-100 system? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Byte Jan 1981 page 204 refers to an IBM S-100 microcomputer system IBM demoed in Europe. Anyone here seen this machine or heard about it? Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Apr 21 18:52:54 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:52:54 -0700 Subject: Ibm s-100 system? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <769FFC4B-57BC-48E8-8D31-2D7351EC8E28@shiresoft.com> Nothing I ever heard of and I was in IBM Boca at the time and would have heard *something* about it. TTFN - Guy > On Apr 21, 2016, at 4:49 PM, william degnan wrote: > > Byte Jan 1981 page 204 refers to an IBM S-100 microcomputer system IBM > demoed in Europe. Anyone here seen this machine or heard about it? > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 19:25:28 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 21:25:28 -0300 Subject: Ibm s-100 system? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57196F78.6010804@gmail.com> On 2016-04-21 8:49 PM, william degnan wrote: > Byte Jan 1981 page 204 refers to an IBM S-100 microcomputer system IBM > demoed in Europe. Anyone here seen this machine or heard about it? > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net Interesting I had never heard of that , but there prediction was correct as the 5150 was announced that summer, their prediction that S100 would become the defacto standard.... not so much. Paul. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Apr 21 20:41:08 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 21:41:08 -0400 Subject: Vt 103 / lsi 11/23 marketed as a desktop late 1980 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57198134.2000509@compsys.to> >william degnan wrote: >Prior to the DEC Rainbow, Chrislin Industries was marketing the 11/23 with >vt103 as a desktop computer. This is a 3rd party vendor. Maybe they were >on to something... > Back around 1988, one of my customers had a few VT103 systems with just an RX02 for storage. A 3rd party controller for an MFM drive (ST506 or DEC RD51) was added since the DEC RQDX1 took too much power. There was still sufficient power and room to place the ST506 drive inside at the base of the VT103. Prior to that point, I had a VT103 with just 256 KB of memory and a DSD 880/8 which had an 8 GB hard drive / RX03 floppy drive in an external box. So there were other 3rd party solutions as well. At one point, just to say that I had done so, I placed a quad PDP-11/73 CPU along with 4 MB of memory, an ESDI controller and a DHV11 with 8 serial ports into the backplane of a VT103. I had to power the three 600 MG hard drives from an additional PC power supply since there was insufficient power from the VT103. But that demonstrated that just a 4 x 4 Qbus backplane was sufficient to run an extremely powerful PDP-11 system using the VT103 as a base system with its own console terminal. At one point, I heard that someone even managed to make the first two slots ABCD which allowed a MicroVAX II to be used instead, although a PDP-11/83 with PMI memory would have also been possible or a PDP-11/93 could also have been used and one quad slot would still have been available without the ABCD change to the backplane. These combinations could have been produced by DEC and been years and technology ahead of the PC computer, but that never happened. I have the impression that the VAX was placed in a position of priority and most development on the PDP-11 side which could compete with the 32-bit VAX was restricted even though there were still many applications where a 16-bit system was more than adequate. DEC could have sold millions of VT103 systems. Jerome Fine From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 21:31:49 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 22:31:49 -0400 Subject: Vt 103 / lsi 11/23 marketed as a desktop late 1980 In-Reply-To: <57198134.2000509@compsys.to> References: <57198134.2000509@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>william degnan wrote: >> Prior to the DEC Rainbow, Chrislin Industries was marketing the 11/23 with >> vt103 as a desktop computer. This is a 3rd party vendor. Maybe they >> were on to something... >> > Back around 1988, one of my customers had a few VT103 > systems with just an RX02 for storage. A 3rd party > controller for an MFM drive (ST506 or DEC RD51) was > added since the DEC RQDX1 took too much power. There > was still sufficient power and room to place the > ST506 drive inside at the base of the VT103. Sounds like a sweet little system... in 1987, I was using an 11/23 in a BA11N (5.25"-tall rack-mount box) with RX02 and RLV11+RL01, so packing all that, including the 5MB disk into a VT103 would have been quite nice. > Prior to that point, I had a VT103 with just 256 KB > of memory and a DSD 880/8 which had an 8 GB hard > drive / RX03 floppy drive in an external box. So > there were other 3rd party solutions as well. 8MB? But otherwise, also nice. > At one point, just to say that I had done so, I placed > a quad PDP-11/73 CPU along with 4 MB of memory, an ESDI > controller and a DHV11 with 8 serial ports into the > backplane of a VT103. Now you're talking! > I had to power the three 600 MG > hard drives from an additional PC power supply since > there was insufficient power from the VT103. Sure. > But that > demonstrated that just a 4 x 4 Qbus backplane was > sufficient to run an extremely powerful PDP-11 system > using the VT103 as a base system with its own console > terminal. Yep. The biggest limitation was power, the second was limited number of slots, so you needed small but powerful cards to make it worthwhile. > At one point, I heard that someone even > managed to make the first two slots ABCD which allowed > a MicroVAX II to be used instead Wow. That sounds like a fun but much bigger hack. I have a VT103 (w/TU58)... I did set up a simple 11/23 in it once, but I should see what I can do with a SCSI card... -ethan From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Apr 21 23:57:51 2016 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 21:57:51 -0700 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005e01d19c53$8651ee30$92f5ca90$@comcast.net> I worked for the FutureNet division of Data I/O in the late 1980s. One disastrous product was a UNIX based coprocessor system that plugged into an IBM PC/AT. The idea was to run circuit board layout software and simulation on a PC. This would be less expensive than the Daisy, Mentor, or Valid workstations. The coprocessor was an Opus plug in board based on the National 32032 CPU. http://cpu-ns32k.net/Opus.html When you ordered the package you got the coprocessor board and a 5 MB hard drive loaded with UNIX and the design software. On a good day the system worked. It was discontinued when PCs with the 368 processor were available. Michael Holley From rwiker at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 01:59:58 2016 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 08:59:58 +0200 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571844A6.3080506@gmail.com> <57184898.3080501@telegraphics.com.au> <5719357D.1070503@sydex.com> Message-ID: Steve Ciarcia (BYTE) had a Z8000-based PC coprocessor ("Trump Card"?) which main purpose was (I think) to run BASIC programs faster. Another of those things that I wanted in the early 80s, along with a PC to use it with. On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Would the Palantir 68K ISA OCR boards be considered as high-performance? > There was also, IIRC, a NSC 32016 board made by someone. > > --Chuck > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 22 03:10:13 2016 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 08:10:13 +0000 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <005e01d19c53$8651ee30$92f5ca90$@comcast.net> References: , <005e01d19c53$8651ee30$92f5ca90$@comcast.net> Message-ID: I had a similar board set for CAD, wish I still had it. It was two boards, a 68000 and a graphics board, to run VERSACAD. In the CAD wars against AUTOCAD, we were winning for a bit, I was a rep selling this 3D solution. It was Sun3 boot, and ran the Sun version of VERSACAD. ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Michael Holley Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 9:57 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX I worked for the FutureNet division of Data I/O in the late 1980s. One disastrous product was a UNIX based coprocessor system that plugged into an IBM PC/AT. The idea was to run circuit board layout software and simulation on a PC. This would be less expensive than the Daisy, Mentor, or Valid workstations. The coprocessor was an Opus plug in board based on the National 32032 CPU. http://cpu-ns32k.net/Opus.html When you ordered the package you got the coprocessor board and a 5 MB hard drive loaded with UNIX and the design software. On a good day the system worked. It was discontinued when PCs with the 368 processor were available. Michael Holley From kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com Fri Apr 22 07:44:53 2016 From: kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com (Kevin Anderson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 12:44:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Harris H800 Computer References: <1286318429.221587.1461329093843.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1286318429.221587.1461329093843.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I did not use the H800, but I cut my computing teeth on smaller Harris models in college (where my work study job was in the computer center, and I was also a computer science major) and then part-time employment afterwards with the Army Corps of Engineers, which was big on Harris computers at the time. This was in the late 1970s to mid-1980s. I used first a model H150 and then the H550 after they upgraded. I even worked for a contractor part-time who had a Harris H120 (I think that was the model number) in his basement for engineering computing. I don't remember what models the Army COE used at the time - H500s of one variant or another I believe. I thought these Harris computers were all a great system, the bees knees as far as I was concerned, far better than any full-blown PDP-11 system at the time (and no doubt cost more as well at the time). There are documents on these systems on Bitsavers. Everything was blue in color, and the console was a CRT that ran in block transmission mode, grabbing either one full line or the entire page off the screen at a time, feeding into the DMCP board. The H150 we had in college had two 80 Mbyte CDC drives, and later we added a 300 Mbyte CDC drive when we upgraded to the H550 model. The tape drive was a non-vacuum 1600 bpi drive, and I spent many hours backing up the system onto tape, and then swapping drive packs and downloading everything again. I vaguely recall that we did that drive swapping once a week in the wee hours of the morning. The Vulcan Operation System (VOS), which later was called VMS, I thought was a cool system, but then I didn't have anything to compare it against. We had Fortran, Basic, Cobal, RPGII, and assembler, plus a version of Runoff so students could write papers that got printed on a Diablo. I spent many hours on that system after hours (I had a key to the college computer center), and even started writing my own tape operating system for fun. We had terminals strung all over campus feeding into the system, connected by long runs of serial cables in the heating tunnels; I spent many hours in those heating tunnels as well, as we had to fix things every time lightning from storms would take out the RS232 chips at either the terminals or on the DMCP board in the computer. I got to know the area Harris field engineer pretty well - he was a chain-smoker that constantly had a cigarette in his mouth, even while working on the computer. I watched him do many a system upgrade to boards, which were all discrete TTL chips and parts that were wire-wrapped at that time. I'd love to know if any Harris computers still exist today. The ones I knew were all scrapped out years ago. I know if I tried to use one today, I'd get really frustrated with the OS, being as used to Linux/Unix as I am today. Harris did come out with a Unix OS for their computers in the mid-1980s, but I never used it. Fond memories. Kevin Anderson From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 07:52:47 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 14:52:47 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 21 April 2016 at 14:43, Mattis Lind wrote: > PED2.DMK and DISK8.IMD is the same disk, but different ways of reading it > off the disk. I used both the standard PC-floppy and then also the > catweasel card. I tried the catweasel for some floppies that I had reading > trouble with. > > I am really interested in hearing more about your emulator! > > /Mattis Notis-calc (from floppy NDDISK33) runs fine, at least. I just had to install a version of ddbtables-d which has support for VT100 (the one which is on the floppy doesn't). I never got around to write a Tandberg terminal emulator.. but vt100 works fine in an xterm. As with every ND GUI program the help system is intuitive, fast, and useful. That spreadsheet is easy to use. I have never used notis-calc before, but it's so easy that I could as well use it instead of gnumeric. Screenshot: http://picpaste.com/notis-calc.png (trying an image service I haven't used before) Well then, the emulator.. it's a limited ND-1x0 emulator. First, I haven't made this available anywhere. The only parts I've "published" is the disassembler, and 'ndfs' which is a tool to read ND (or SINTRAN) filesystems (which I use to extract files from those floppy images, after converting from IMD to raw images). The only thing my emulator has for it is the unfortunate fact that ND emulators are few and far between.. they're as close to non-existing as can be. I know of only two other efforts other than my own, and one (the 'Haldens' emulator, a Windows-only version, with a couple of bugs but otherwise quite good) dropped off the net years ago I think (I have a copy of that one if someone wants it). My emulator isn't Windows, I wrote it on Linux and tested on AIX, Solaris, IRIX, Tru64 (and Maemo, so it actually runs on my Nokia N900 mobile phone). It's not something streamlined and github'able. My emulator is not a full emulator, as it cannot execute SINTRAN-III (the operating system, for those non-ND'ers out there). It's somewhat like COM, the old CP/M emulator which doesn't run CP/M, as such, it just runs CP/M applications. My ND emulator is the same. It can run :PROG and :BPUN 1- or 2-bank executables from a Unix (and Linux) command line. The monitor calls (system calls) are implemented as a simulation of what SINTRAN would do. It tries to re-map the SINTRAN file system into *nix, which isn't always straight forward, so there's some clumsy mapping done with a resource file ($HOME/.s3rc), so that when notis-calc tries to open 'DDBTABLES-D:VTM' it's directed to a *nix file like so (cut from the .s3rc file): DDBTABLES-D:VTM /home/tor/vtm/DDBTABLES-D10.VTM Another example: UE-ERMSG-EN-C:ERR /home/tor/sintran/fs/ue-ermsg-en-c09.err (it's perfectly possible to have filenames with ':' in *nix of course, but as I also need to map to specific versions I sometimes use normal *nix format. SINTRAN has some interesting file name handling, e.g. FILE--ABC: maps to FILE-X-ABC: and FILE-SYZ-ABC: and so on. So it's not always a simple mapping.) I haven't done anything with my emulator since around 2011. By then it executed nearly[*] everything I have, until now, including PED (Programmer's Editor), Fortran, Planc, BRF-linker etc. The only "normal" (i.e. not stand-alone, non-OS, bare-metal test programs) application it can't execute is NOTIS-WP (Word Processor Suite), because WP "overlays" parts of itself with segments. I have never figured out how the segment file is laid out for this, I couldn't find any documentation and I never investigated that when I had physical machines available (up to around 1995), although I peeked and poked inside nearly everything else.. in any case, I couldn't implement the monitor calls necessary to support NOTIS-WP. So NOTIS-CALC is an exception to the NOTIS suite, as it doesn't use segments. It's nice to have something new to execute. I tried the Simula compiler too (from another of Mattis' floppies), had to add a new monitor call (mon 222), but it doesn't actually run. A new challenge then.. ( [*] There's something else the emulator doesn't handle well, and that's 'chained' applications which execute one after another by calling SINTRAN command-line functions to load the next program - the CAT-Pascal compiler for ND-100 is one of those, as it consists of a set of programs to run the various compilation stages. I don't have support for SINTRAN command line calls.) Because the Unix-SINTRAN filesystem mapping is awkward, and makes for a not very streamlined, user-friendly emulator, I wanted to implement a real SINTRAN filesystem environment/layer, and run the programs from inside there. That would make things better. Particularly because it was so easy and useful to write tools that manipulated the filesystem directly, I wrote many such tools back in the day. That's tricky to handle properly in my current emulator. (It works, but.. it's not nice.) But I never got around to write that one either. One thing I noticed while implementing this thing is that the original NORD-10 instruction set is very elegant, and simple to decode. RISC-like, in a way. The ND-100 variants added more and more 'special' instructions, many of them meant to support later SINTRAN-III versions, and they did, but also some rather complex instructions to support compilers. But, as compiler writers know, it's better if the output of the compiler runs on all the hardware.. and none of the compilers ever started using those fancy instructions in the generated code. Not one. As the compilers are implemented in (for the most part) PLANC, which is just another compiler, the compilers themselves don't execute fancy instructions either. The problem with the new instructions is that they're not elegant anymore, decoding adds a lot of testing and branching. But, they're mostly not needed... the special SINTRAN instructions are necessary though, for later versions of SINTRAN-III. Some instructions are not documented (e.g. the GECO instruction, named after one main customer: The Geophysical Company of Norway, an oil/seismic survey company). I eventually figured out that the GECO instruction was used by SINTRAN itself, to deduce which version of the CPU was running. But these instructions are messing up my emulator. So I tired of the effort to write a full emulator. It would be nice to run SINTRAN, at least those undocumented moncalls would be available then. But I doubt it happens. Maybe when I retire.. or, if I could get my hands on a real, working ND computer again, then I could figure out the tricky parts. I used to delve deep into the system back in the day, I loved ND computers - you could get as close to the metal as you wanted, and you could walk through the operating system. The only problem with ND was the flat filesystem. I liked everything else. Heck, I liked the filesystem too.. not as a *filesystem* for storing files, I much prefer *nix, but the design and layout was so easy and well-documented and easy to write tools for. We (a few of us, including at least one more member of this list) used to document everything ND we could figure out on the 'ndwiki.org' site, but for unknown reasons (to me at least) it started going offline more and more a couple of years back, and then never came back. I didn't manage to get archive.org to copy everything before it went, although I got quite a few pages archived before it went for good. Without that site there's not much available on the net. Another reason my work on this stopped. Lastly I should add that my emulator started as an ad-hoc thing, as I had originally started writing an ND-500/5000 emulator. That's a 32-bit system, it uses an ND-100 (or in practice an ND-110 or ND-120) 16-bit mini as a front-end processor. The '100 runs SINTRAN-III, the 500(0) runs 32-bit applications. Harvard design. At one point I wanted to write some assembly programs as part of the testing, and the ND-500(0) assembler is a cross-assembler which executes in the ND-100. So I started writing an emulator for the '100, one instruction at the time, running the assembler until it hit an instruction or a monitor call my emulator didn't know. Implement that, and repeat. So it grew organically from there. Later I managed to retrieve some backup images from my old CCTs, and was given another image from elsewhere, and I also imaged my old 5 1/4" floppies. With all of that I suddenly had PED and some compilers, so I continued with those: Run, hit something unknown, implement, repeat. No big overall plan behind it. -Tor From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 11:59:19 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:59:19 +0200 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 20 April 2016 at 17:32, Pete Turnbull wrote: > The Z80 CoPro ran CP/M - real licensed CP/M 2.2, not the bastardised > often-not-compatible "CPN" lookalike offered by Torch, and came with GEM and > various office software. Hang on. I think you're conflating 2 different coprocessors and their software here. GEM didn't run on CP/M. It was considerably too big and too complex for an 8-bit CPU. GEM's graphics API, the VDI, was partly based on Digital's Research's CP/M graphics API, GSX, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_Environment_Manager GEM ran on MS-DOS, DR's own DOS+ (a forerunner of the later DR-DOS) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOS_Plus ... and on the Atari ST's TOS, derived in part from CP/M-68K. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_Environment_Manager#Atari_versions The only BBC copro that could run GEM, AFAIAA, was the BBC Master 512 with the Intel 80186. http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Computers/Master512.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 12:47:37 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 11:47:37 -0600 (MDT) Subject: shell accounts [was RE: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED13730@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, Tony Aiuto wrote: > Actually, I don't get this discussion at all. Okay, well you are entitled to your view, just like the rest of us, obviously. However, a bit less caviler condescension might lubricate the discussion more effectively. > I had a panix account years ago. About the same time I ran a FULL suite > of servers in my basement, DNS, STMP, HTTP & mailman. I don't run a "full suite of servers". I run an SGI Challenge S that runs on minimal power (about 14-30W most of the time, thus sayeth my Kill-a-watt meter). It's the only system in my entire constellation of systems that stays on all the time. At my electricity rates, it costs me about four to eight dollars a year. So, it's not like it requires a full rack of mainframes spinning the meter and burning a hole in my pocket. It's likely _less_ than I'd pay to get decent hosted + managed version of the same service. I use free dyndns so I don't even pay a NIC. I guess I could hook up an old AMD Geode board or use a RPI+ or something and lower my costs a bit more. > Then I realized that was just because I *could*, rather than I needed to > or because it served any interesting historical purpose. I switched it > all to outsourced services and never looked back. I don't trust corporations. Most of them are crooked as a dog's hind leg and I have no doubt they'd do _anything_ with my data if it made them a dollar (and that despite whatever they'd said or agreed to in the past). I _know_ where *my* backups are and when they were last taken. I don't have to depend that the low-paid foreigners working for some hosted version of the service are actually rotating those tapes out of the silo etc... I've worked for these people all my life (dirty corporations) and I know how the sausage is made, unfortunately. > The bottom line is that what i really care about is the beauty of old > hardware and the elegance of software that had to run in that limited > environment. Cool, but that's definitely just your personal preference based on your own style, not some immutable logic which failed to make itself apparent to me in the same epiphany you experienced. If someone else gets a kick out of running an old application, what is the harm in that? > The speed/cost/accuracy tradeoff is the essence of software engineering. I respectfully disagree. Creativity and problem solving are the essence of all engineering, in my opinion. The tradeoffs you mention are simple considerations that factor into a constellation of variables leading to a finished effort. > If I read information about it with Lynx rather than a modern browser, I > only penalize myself. Again, that's your style and your preference. I have vision problems. I often read pages in elinks (I dislike lynx) for the purpose of having strict control over the fonts without having to create CSS, faster load times, exclusion of advertisements, availability over text-only connections such as ssh or telnet for testing sites from alternate locations, and finally so I can focus on the content to the exclusion of any surrounding graphics. That's just a few of many reasons folks use text browsers. > I reduce my bandwidth for some abstract notion of "purity". That's not at all what I'm thinking when I do it (regularly). > Look at it this way. Archeologists care about history, but they are smart > enough to realize they don't have to write their papers in charcoal on > cave walls. If they did write it on a cave wall they might have a prayer of someone finding it 10,000 years from now. They will likely store them on digital media that will be worthless in less than 100 years if some corporate dirtbag doesn't deign to store them on their $$$-only server. If it's "cloud" storage, then it'd go away as soon as they quit paying. If it was CDROM, Floppy, HDD etc.. it'll degrade. So, to extend your analogy, perhaps the Archaeologist should consider using a medium that might see their work survive to be meaningful far into the future. That might be a MOdisc or it might be a clay tablet. One size does not fit all when humans are involved since they all have different needs and preferences. The reason we know more about the Babylonians versus some much newer literate cultures is that they wrote on stone (clay) tablets. Laugh all you want (privately, please) at the "luddites" but it worked for them, and continues to do so. > Do not conflate the subject matter with the medium to talk about it. Frankly, I find your advice condescending and bereft of merit. I disagree that is was what we were doing in our discussion. > I love ancient hardware, and I will use the best tools I have available to > talk about it. "Best" != Newest. I can ssh into my place from anywhere and read my mail faster than using webmail (no contest, there are no graphics, and ssh keys get me in hyper-fast). What's best for you isn't always going to best for me or others and visa-versa. > Limiting myself to shell accounts and elm as a mail reader misses the > point. At best, it misses your point from your perspective. You seem to be completely dismissing and marginalizing folks who have some categorically bulletproof reasoning to run older applications that you don't seem to have considered at all. One of those reasons is "some people think it's fun" and that's totally valid, too. Another (more common) reason is that it's what they know. My father-in-law built a reproduction of a clock from the 1600's and he used an _ancient_ version of IBM CAD for DOS to design various parts since that's what he knew best and he already had an interface built between IBM CAD and his milling machine. It turned out wonderful and there wasn't any good reason why I should have stopped marveling at the work he did to harangue him to "upgrade" to AutoCAD. The _results_ matter far more than the tools, in my opinion. The preferences of the people using the tools, matters, too. There is also the fact that some folks *like* using tools that might actually be slower or less effective. I do woodworking 100% with hand tools. It's MUCH slower than using power tools and often the results are almost always less precise and sloppier than what a C&C rig could give me. I could care less. I do it because it relaxes me and focuses my mind. > We *live* in 2016. We talk about 1970. Which has little or no bearing on any of your assertions. It's also condescending which is counterproductive to moving a discussion toward a meaningful destination. > Using technology from 1990 is neither historically accurate, nor useful. I believe you are wrong, on both points, sir. It's completely historically accurate since they are the exact digital duplicates (or originals) running in many cases on the exact hardware. How is that inaccurate in the slightest way besides the fact that it's not 1990 ? Your second point that it's not useful leaves me stunned at the factual bankruptcy of the statement. Do you have any idea how much "legacy" tech is still out there doing both trivial and critical jobs? Things that you depend on every day like power and water are most likely operated in large part on "historical" applications. I won't bother making a list, since I doubt the list-server is going to accept a 100MB email. Did you know that George RR Martin writes all his books using a DOS machine running Wordstar? Do you think he'd have turned out better work fighting the paper clip in MS Word ? Will you eschew his work since he used a not "useful" application to create it ? -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 12:51:20 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 11:51:20 -0600 (MDT) Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > GEM ran on MS-DOS, DR's own DOS+ (a forerunner of the later DR-DOS) It still runs under FreeDOS, too. I've puttered around with it several times in that environment. > ... and on the Atari ST's TOS, derived in part from CP/M-68K. Ah ha! I always wondered about that relationship. So, the ST TOS GEM *was* in fact related to the same version that ran on DOS. I always wondered if it was just similar naming, copy-cat syndrome, or if they were a licensee. Now I know! I never had an ST, unfortunately. I just drooled on them. > The only BBC copro that could run GEM, AFAIAA, was the BBC Master 512 with > the Intel 80186. Whoa. That sounds bizarre but cool. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 13:03:27 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 12:03:27 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? Message-ID: Remember all the accelerator boards for the Mac, Amiga, and even PCs in the 90's ? I've often wished that I could get something similar on my older SGI systems. For example, fitting an R16k into an O2 or doing dynamic translation on a 4.0Ghz i7. I'm most familiar with the Amiga accelerators. I suspect those who produced them were helped out greatly by a couple of factors. One is that the hardware specs were very well known and full schematics were available for most (all?) Amigas. I doubt the same is true of SGI machines. The other is that many Amigas had processor "slots" (with edge connectors) rather than some tiny fiddly ball-grid array etc... but I'm not a EE; so maybe that's bunk. When I look at these boards they seem like they'd be a LOT of work to develop and produce. I wonder how they were even economical to make back in the day. Plus, now the user base will probably only shrink. It's not a great business model for a hard-to-produce item. It doesn't keep my techno-lust from wanting it, though. So, here's the question. Is my dream likely to ever be possible enough that a boutique shop could pull it off and not lose their shirt on the production costs and R&D to do it ? I'm encouraged by things floppy emulators that are produced for these old machines. However, that's probably significantly easier to make than a CPU accel board. What do you guys think? -Swift From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Apr 22 13:25:29 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 11:25:29 -0700 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Apr 22, 2016, at 11:03 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > > Remember all the accelerator boards for the Mac, Amiga, and even PCs in the > 90's ? I've often wished that I could get something similar on my older SGI > systems. For example, fitting an R16k into an O2 or doing dynamic > translation on a 4.0Ghz i7. The main reason for a lot of the ?accelerator? boards was to be able to run non-native code on the same platform. With the advent of performance micros (latest x86 and Power) there is little need to do that because emulation (or dynamic translation) is fast enough and with the various virtualization capabilities, it?s not unusual to have multiple different OS?s running on the same HW. Apple did this with some success in it?s various CPU transitions. When they switched from 68K to PPC, the PPC emulated the 68K code. The same happened when they switched from PPC to x86, again the PPC code was emulated (actually in that case it was dynamically translated). > > So, here's the question. Is my dream likely to ever be possible enough that > a boutique shop could pull it off and not lose their shirt on the production > costs and R&D to do it ? I'm encouraged by things floppy emulators that are > produced for these old machines. However, that's probably significantly > easier to make than a CPU accel board. It?s also keeping in character with the old machines. It?s not adding new capabilities but more replacing old peripherals with something a bit more convenient. Adding in a new accelerator means not only developing the HW but also writing a boatload of *new* SW in order to be able to take advantage of it. Most of what you see (and what I?m mainly doing these days in terms of ?hobby?) is producing parts to a system in order to keep it running rather than adding completely new capabilities. Most companies would rather spend their time and budget doing things for a high ROI and for large and growing markets. TTFN - Guy From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 13:51:37 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 13:51:37 -0500 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > On Apr 22, 2016, at 11:03 AM, Swift Griggs > wrote: > > > > > > Remember all the accelerator boards for the Mac, Amiga, and even PCs in > the > > 90's ? I've often wished that I could get something similar on my older > SGI > > systems. For example, fitting an R16k into an O2 or doing dynamic > > translation on a 4.0Ghz i7. > > The main reason for a lot of the ?accelerator? boards was to be able to run > non-native code on the same platform. With the advent of performance > micros (latest x86 and Power) there is little need to do that because > emulation > (or dynamic translation) is fast enough and with the various virtualization > capabilities, it?s not unusual to have multiple different OS?s running on > the > same HW. > > Apple did this with some success in it?s various CPU transitions. When > they > switched from 68K to PPC, the PPC emulated the 68K code. The same > happened when they switched from PPC to x86, again the PPC code was > emulated (actually in that case it was dynamically translated). > I've heard about PPC Amigas from time to time. What was the state of 68K->PPC emulation or dynamic translation on those? > > > > > So, here's the question. Is my dream likely to ever be possible enough > that > > a boutique shop could pull it off and not lose their shirt on the > production > > costs and R&D to do it ? I'm encouraged by things floppy emulators that > are > > produced for these old machines. However, that's probably significantly > > easier to make than a CPU accel board. > > It?s also keeping in character with the old machines. It?s not adding new > capabilities but more replacing old peripherals with something a bit more > convenient. Adding in a new accelerator means not only developing the > HW but also writing a boatload of *new* SW in order to be able to take > advantage of it. > > Most of what you see (and what I?m mainly doing these days in terms of > ?hobby?) is producing parts to a system in order to keep it running rather > than adding completely new capabilities. Most companies would rather > spend their time and budget doing things for a high ROI and for large and > growing markets. > I like the new types of peripherals but it makes me a little uncomfortable knowing that e.g. in the case of the uIEC-SD for Commodores, the clock speed of the peripheral is 16 to 20 times that of the original host CPU. I keep hatching little schemes of perhaps putting a tiny OS kernel in the thing, but at that point *it* would become the computer and the 128 would be just sort of sitting there. The same is true of the CosmosEx device I've been thinking of getting for my Atari STs; it has a Raspberry Pi inside. -- Eric Christopherson From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 14:12:22 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 13:12:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2016, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > [...] emulation (or dynamic translation) is fast enough and with the > various virtualization capabilities, it?s not unusual to have multiple > different OS?s running on the same HW. Indeed. My other wish is that someone far brighter than I will someday develop a MIPS emulator capable of emulating IRIX. The odds of that aren't great since untangling the ROM would be a real PITA. > Apple did this with some success in it?s various CPU transitions. When > they switched from 68K to PPC, the PPC emulated the 68K code. The same > happened when they switched from PPC to x86, again the PPC code was > emulated (actually in that case it was dynamically translated). Yes, and don't forget the NeXT platform which had "quad-fat binaries" capable of running on 4 (!) platforms at once. It might have been a little top heavy and impractical at times, but it was soooo cool to me. I'm sure you remember "Rosetta" too. IRIX on x86 would be heresy to some, but I'd welcome it *especially* if it could dynamically translate MIPS ECOFF binaries, and run legacy IRIX software. I know the lawyers would never let any of that happen, but a man needs to have some dreams. :-) > It?s also keeping in character with the old machines. It?s not adding new > capabilities but more replacing old peripherals with something a bit more > convenient. I see your point and I agree. > Adding in a new accelerator means not only developing the HW but also > writing a boatload of *new* SW in order to be able to take advantage of > it. An oil-tanker sized boat. Yep. Unless of course you could keep everything pin compatible etc... which is even harder. "We're gonna need a bigger boat." > Most of what you see (and what I?m mainly doing these days in terms of > ?hobby?) is producing parts to a system in order to keep it running rather > than adding completely new capabilities. Well, I appreciate that fact that anyone is doing anything! If I ever meet "Lotharek" I'm definitely buying him a round. I get excited just looking at some old gear that someone's cleaned up nicely or polished the face panels on. I'd probably die in an apoplectic fit if I ever saw an ad for an SGI accel board. If I ever make someone mad, they could totally get back at me by handing me a fake flyer for "Press release: Acme Inc releases SGI MIPS accelerator board based off high speed GPU". When I found out it was bogus I'd go jump off the roof. Joking aside, I do see your point about restoring vs enhancing, and it's well taken. > Most companies would rather spend their time and budget doing things for > a high ROI and for large and growing markets. Amen brother, I was just wishing out loud. I needed someone to bring me back to Earth. -Swift From ethan at 757.org Fri Apr 22 14:17:10 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 15:17:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I'm most familiar with the Amiga accelerators. I suspect those who > produced them were helped out greatly by a couple of factors. One is that > the hardware specs were very well known and full schematics were available > for most (all?) Amigas. I doubt the same is true of SGI machines. SGI stuff is still much under wraps as far as I know. Thats why NetBSD and similar for SGI are still pretty rudimentary. All propriatary, those groups don't want to use stolen info, and who knows if the documentation still even exists after the rackable purchase. > The > other is that many Amigas had processor "slots" (with edge connectors) > rather than some tiny fiddly ball-grid array etc... but I'm not a EE; so > maybe that's bunk. > High clock rates for data busses of modern systems wouldn't work with old style card edge interconnects AFAIK. Also, I don't think the old PPC accelerators for the Amiga or the ones for the Macs (that sometimes had CPU upgrade slots) would really accelerate everything - you might get faster processor instructions and maybe L1/L2 cache -- but memory and I/O are still slow? > When I look at these boards they seem like they'd be a LOT of work to > develop and produce. I wonder how they were even economical to make back in > the day. Plus, now the user base will probably only shrink. It's not a > great business model for a hard-to-produce item. It doesn't keep my > techno-lust from wanting it, though. They were really expensive at the time :-) US dollars have lost a lot of value (especially given overpriced housing.) The old $3000 Tandy system with a 20 meg hard card and TGA/CGA graphics is like $7000 in todays cash. Amiga stuff was always pretty expensive, and you had to pay VGA monitor prices for it's crappy TV display (1084S). And yea, at least Atari stuff was made in Taiwan so they were using cheaper labor then too. > So, here's the question. Is my dream likely to ever be possible enough that > a boutique shop could pull it off and not lose their shirt on the production > costs and R&D to do it ? I'm encouraged by things floppy emulators that are > produced for these old machines. However, that's probably significantly > easier to make than a CPU accel board. > What do you guys think? > -Swift You gotta build it! There are better tools for doing it now (board layout apps and such) and you can get boards made in China cheap. So that's on your side. -- Ethan O'Toole From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Apr 22 14:26:15 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 15:26:15 -0400 Subject: VCF East pictures Message-ID: <571A7AD7.1070809@snarc.net> Here are some photos from last weekend's show. Bill Degnan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/vcf11/ Herb Johnson -- http://www.retrotechnology.com/vcfe11/ Mike Loewen -- http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/VCF-East2016/ From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Apr 22 14:29:42 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 12:29:42 -0700 Subject: VCF East pictures In-Reply-To: <571A7AD7.1070809@snarc.net> References: <571A7AD7.1070809@snarc.net> Message-ID: <008b01d19ccd$528f8060$f7ae8120$@net> > Here are some photos from last weekend's show. > > Bill Degnan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/vcf11/ > > Herb Johnson -- http://www.retrotechnology.com/vcfe11/ > > Mike Loewen -- http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/VCF-East2016/ Very nice! I am looking forward to VCF-West! BTW: Can someone (Bill?) explain Cyclops to me too? I tried looking it up initially but I am not sure I got it. Is it a scanner of some sort? Thanks! -Ali From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 14:40:47 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 12:40:47 -0700 Subject: VCF East pictures In-Reply-To: <571A7AD7.1070809@snarc.net> References: <571A7AD7.1070809@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 12:26 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Here are some photos from last weekend's show. > > Bill Degnan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/vcf11/ > > Herb Johnson -- http://www.retrotechnology.com/vcfe11/ > > Mike Loewen -- http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/VCF-East2016/ Wow. There is nothing quite like seeing software that you wrote 35 years ago up and running. -- Charles From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Apr 22 14:41:11 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 15:41:11 -0400 Subject: VCF East pictures In-Reply-To: <008b01d19ccd$528f8060$f7ae8120$@net> References: <571A7AD7.1070809@snarc.net> <008b01d19ccd$528f8060$f7ae8120$@net> Message-ID: <571A7E57.5050900@snarc.net> >> Here are some photos from last weekend's show. >> >> Bill Degnan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/vcf11/ >> >> Herb Johnson -- http://www.retrotechnology.com/vcfe11/ >> >> Mike Loewen -- http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/VCF-East2016/ > > Very nice! I am looking forward to VCF-West! > > BTW: Can someone (Bill?) explain Cyclops to me too? I tried looking it up initially but I am not sure I got it. Is it a scanner of some sort? Thanks! It's a digital camera ... sort of. :) I'm sure Bill S. will chime in. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 14:40:54 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 15:40:54 -0400 Subject: shell accounts [was RE: strangest systems I've sent email from] References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED13730@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <23CFD16D40CF4E27B3280DB6032D01C0@310e2> What *is it* with the thin skins around here? I read someone just expressing his perspective, his "personal preference based on his style" as you put it; I didn't read any cavalier condescension, judgments, "dismissing or marginalizing" other folks' perspectives, or anything that justifies calling him a "jerk" as in J.W.'s post. Do these things invariably have to elicit defensive ad hominem and straw man arguments? Aside from those, I find your post below as valid and interesting as the OP's and although I see some things differently I don't feel insulted or condescended to in the least. If I say that I personally don't see any point today in laboriously using Pine and my 8x40 display M100 (or Chuck's Kobo ;-) to read my email (even though I did actually use an M100 back in the 80's), does that really automatically imply that I think that anyone who does get a kick out of that sort of thing is an imbecile and that I'm smarter or better somehow than they are? m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Swift Griggs" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 1:47 PM Subject: Re: shell accounts [was RE: strangest systems I've sent email from] > On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, Tony Aiuto wrote: >> Actually, I don't get this discussion at all. > > Okay, well you are entitled to your view, just like the rest of us, > obviously. However, a bit less caviler condescension might lubricate the > discussion more effectively. > >> I had a panix account years ago. About the same time I ran a FULL suite >> of servers in my basement, DNS, STMP, HTTP & mailman. > > I don't run a "full suite of servers". I run an SGI Challenge S that runs > on minimal power (about 14-30W most of the time, thus sayeth my > Kill-a-watt meter). It's the only system in my entire constellation of > systems that stays on all the time. At my electricity rates, it costs me > about four to eight dollars a year. So, it's not like it requires a full > rack of mainframes spinning the meter and burning a hole in my pocket. > It's likely _less_ than I'd pay to get decent hosted + managed version of > the same service. I use free dyndns so I don't even pay a NIC. I guess I > could hook up an old AMD Geode board or use a RPI+ or something and lower > my costs a bit more. > >> Then I realized that was just because I *could*, rather than I needed to >> or because it served any interesting historical purpose. I switched it >> all to outsourced services and never looked back. > > I don't trust corporations. Most of them are crooked as a dog's hind leg > and I have no doubt they'd do _anything_ with my data if it made them a > dollar (and that despite whatever they'd said or agreed to in the past). > I _know_ where *my* backups are and when they were last taken. I don't > have to depend that the low-paid foreigners working for some hosted > version of the service are actually rotating those tapes out of the silo > etc... I've worked for these people all my life (dirty corporations) and > I know how the sausage is made, unfortunately. > >> The bottom line is that what i really care about is the beauty of old >> hardware and the elegance of software that had to run in that limited >> environment. > > Cool, but that's definitely just your personal preference based on your > own style, not some immutable logic which failed to make itself apparent > to me in the same epiphany you experienced. If someone else gets a kick > out of running an old application, what is the harm in that? > >> The speed/cost/accuracy tradeoff is the essence of software engineering. > > I respectfully disagree. Creativity and problem solving are the essence > of all engineering, in my opinion. The tradeoffs you mention are simple > considerations that factor into a constellation of variables leading to a > finished effort. > >> If I read information about it with Lynx rather than a modern browser, I >> only penalize myself. > > Again, that's your style and your preference. I have vision problems. I > often read pages in elinks (I dislike lynx) for the purpose of having > strict control over the fonts without having to create CSS, faster load > times, exclusion of advertisements, availability over text-only > connections such as ssh or telnet for testing sites from alternate > locations, and finally so I can focus on the content to the exclusion of > any surrounding graphics. That's just a few of many reasons folks use text > browsers. > >> I reduce my bandwidth for some abstract notion of "purity". > > That's not at all what I'm thinking when I do it (regularly). > >> Look at it this way. Archeologists care about history, but they are smart >> enough to realize they don't have to write their papers in charcoal on >> cave walls. > > If they did write it on a cave wall they might have a prayer of someone > finding it 10,000 years from now. They will likely store them on digital > media that will be worthless in less than 100 years if some corporate > dirtbag doesn't deign to store them on their $$$-only server. If it's > "cloud" storage, then it'd go away as soon as they quit paying. If it was > CDROM, Floppy, HDD etc.. it'll degrade. So, to extend your analogy, > perhaps the Archaeologist should consider using a medium that might see > their work survive to be meaningful far into the future. That might be a > MOdisc or it might be a clay tablet. One size does not fit all when humans > are involved since they all have different needs and preferences. The > reason we know more about the Babylonians versus some much newer literate > cultures is that they wrote on stone (clay) tablets. Laugh all you want > (privately, please) at the "luddites" but it worked for them, and > continues to do so. > >> Do not conflate the subject matter with the medium to talk about it. > > Frankly, I find your advice condescending and bereft of merit. I disagree > that is was what we were doing in our discussion. > >> I love ancient hardware, and I will use the best tools I have available to >> talk about it. > > "Best" != Newest. I can ssh into my place from anywhere and read my mail > faster than using webmail (no contest, there are no graphics, and ssh keys > get me in hyper-fast). What's best for you isn't always going to best for > me or others and visa-versa. > >> Limiting myself to shell accounts and elm as a mail reader misses the >> point. > > At best, it misses your point from your perspective. You seem to be > completely dismissing and marginalizing folks who have some categorically > bulletproof reasoning to run older applications that you don't seem to > have considered at all. One of those reasons is "some people think it's > fun" and that's totally valid, too. Another (more common) reason is that > it's what they know. My father-in-law built a reproduction of a clock > from the 1600's and he used an _ancient_ version of IBM CAD for DOS to > design various parts since that's what he knew best and he already had an > interface built between IBM CAD and his milling machine. It turned out > wonderful and there wasn't any good reason why I should have stopped > marveling at the work he did to harangue him to "upgrade" to AutoCAD. > The _results_ matter far more than the tools, in my opinion. The > preferences of the people using the tools, matters, too. > > There is also the fact that some folks *like* using tools that might > actually be slower or less effective. I do woodworking 100% with hand > tools. It's MUCH slower than using power tools and often the results are > almost always less precise and sloppier than what a C&C rig could give me. > I could care less. I do it because it relaxes me and focuses my mind. > >> We *live* in 2016. We talk about 1970. > > Which has little or no bearing on any of your assertions. It's also > condescending which is counterproductive to moving a discussion toward a > meaningful destination. > >> Using technology from 1990 is neither historically accurate, nor useful. > > I believe you are wrong, on both points, sir. It's completely > historically accurate since they are the exact digital duplicates (or > originals) running in many cases on the exact hardware. How is that > inaccurate in the slightest way besides the fact that it's not 1990 ? > > Your second point that it's not useful leaves me stunned at the factual > bankruptcy of the statement. Do you have any idea how much "legacy" tech > is still out there doing both trivial and critical jobs? Things that you > depend on every day like power and water are most likely operated in large > part on "historical" applications. I won't bother making a list, since I > doubt the list-server is going to accept a 100MB email. > > Did you know that George RR Martin writes all his books using a DOS > machine running Wordstar? Do you think he'd have turned out better work > fighting the paper clip in MS Word ? Will you eschew his work since he > used a not "useful" application to create it ? > > -Swift > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 22 14:48:24 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 14:48:24 -0500 Subject: shell accounts [was RE: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <23CFD16D40CF4E27B3280DB6032D01C0@310e2> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED13730@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <23CFD16D40CF4E27B3280DB6032D01C0@310e2> Message-ID: <006901d19ccf$eeecba70$ccc62f50$@classiccmp.org> Some feel there's thin skin, some feel there's condescension. As always - eye of the beholder. I believe Swift *could* have responded very differently, and I emailed him already off-list thanking him for "politely moving forward and giving the benefit of the doubt" which is what we should all strive to do.... J From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Apr 22 14:55:22 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 15:55:22 -0400 Subject: VCF East pictures In-Reply-To: <008b01d19ccd$528f8060$f7ae8120$@net> References: <571A7AD7.1070809@snarc.net> <008b01d19ccd$528f8060$f7ae8120$@net> Message-ID: <0aeb01d19cd0$e807a200$b816e600$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Ali wrote: > BTW: Can someone (Bill?) explain Cyclops to me too? I tried looking it > up initially but I am not sure I got it. Is it a scanner of some sort? > Thanks! Simplest just to read the article (it's not very long): http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Feb1975/PE_Feb1975.htm You can also see the pictures of the original and compare to my reproduction (built using period materials, components and techniques). If you have specific questions after reading the article, I'll be happy to answer them. Bill S. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 22 15:28:00 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 13:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2016, Eric Christopherson wrote: > I like the new types of peripherals but it makes me a little uncomfortable > knowing that e.g. in the case of the uIEC-SD for Commodores, the clock > speed of the peripheral is 16 to 20 times that of the original host CPU. I > keep hatching little schemes of perhaps putting a tiny OS kernel in the > thing, but at that point *it* would become the computer and the 128 would > be just sort of sitting there. The same is true of the CosmosEx device I've > been thinking of getting for my Atari STs; it has a Raspberry Pi inside. I heard at the time, that the Apple Laserwriter was the "most powerful" machine that they made, and that certain people were connecting terminals to it and programming in Postscript. I did some trivial programming in Postscript, but didn't have a Laserwriter. It was a stack based language, with similarities to Forth. I suspect that the "terminals" were actually terminal emulation in whichever machines were currently connected anyway. I made a company logo that was outline letters with a fill of lines radiating from a point (think about Moire pattern artifacts when pushing the resolution limits). Then I found that the "Freedom Of Press" Postscript emulation of the commercial large format printer was too slow, and did not have a large enough stack space. (whilst other deadlines were looming). From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 15:31:43 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 14:31:43 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2016, Eric Christopherson wrote: > I've heard about PPC Amigas from time to time. What was the state of > 68K->PPC emulation or dynamic translation on those? >From my perspective it's complicated and sub-optimal but a darn-sight better than nothing. They usually had a hosted 68k proc + PPC. Then they'd hand you a somewhat incomplete bevvy of replacement libraries and binaries to put the PPC60x proc into action. However, despite the jiggery pokery, they were effective in speeding up nearly any kind of Workbench application, but for games it was hit or miss. Sometimes it'd hork up games that depended too much on the CPU clock. That reminds me of the time my best friend in 7th grade got miffed at me because I hit the "TURBO" button while he was playing "Budokan" and some ninja with a pair of chucks got froggy and put him on the mat because of the extra speed. So, he made me try it and I didn't even get past the first fight (while he laughed at me). > I keep hatching little schemes of perhaps putting a tiny OS kernel in the > thing, but at that point *it* would become the computer and the 128 would > be just sort of sitting there. ... you are right, but it'd still feel "original" to me because of the same hardware my hands were on & original video graphics running the show. Hmfp. Maybe I'm just rationalizing, though. > The same is true of the CosmosEx device I've been thinking of getting for > my Atari STs; it has a Raspberry Pi inside. That thing is rad. I didn't know about it. I never owned an ST, but lately I've considered getting one. I like the all-in-one designs, but I'd probably go for the full size rig in the end. Wait, nevermind, I seem to remember my SO threatening bodily harm if anymore old gear showed up.... -Swift From jan at janadelsbach.com Fri Apr 22 15:38:05 2016 From: jan at janadelsbach.com (Jan Adelsbach) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 22:38:05 +0200 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <571A8BAD.106@janadelsbach.com> The way one would implement such accelerator boards over an IO subsystem bus is to use memory-mapped registers and depending upon the accelerator either a single register that executes an instruction on write or a small memory for microcode with some way of triggering execution. Older SGI's have a VME bus and the GIO/GIO64 bus used for I think the Indigo's is also documented. This is aside from E(ISA) and PCI cards. So it is possible but as mentioned before the software is an issue, especially if you don't want to explicitly write code for it but have the compiler automatically use the accelerator. On the topic of IRIX emulation: There used to be an emulator from Stanford which could run IRIX 5.4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SimOS Also whilst searching for the latter's name I've found https://www.vanheusden.com/miep/ (also Gxemul can emulate the PROM firmware of an O2) - Jan On 04/22/2016 09:12 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Fri, 22 Apr 2016, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> [...] emulation (or dynamic translation) is fast enough and with the >> various virtualization capabilities, it?s not unusual to have multiple >> different OS?s running on the same HW. > > Indeed. My other wish is that someone far brighter than I will someday > develop a MIPS emulator capable of emulating IRIX. The odds of that aren't > great since untangling the ROM would be a real PITA. > >> Apple did this with some success in it?s various CPU transitions. When >> they switched from 68K to PPC, the PPC emulated the 68K code. The same >> happened when they switched from PPC to x86, again the PPC code was >> emulated (actually in that case it was dynamically translated). > > Yes, and don't forget the NeXT platform which had "quad-fat binaries" > capable of running on 4 (!) platforms at once. It might have been a little > top heavy and impractical at times, but it was soooo cool to me. I'm sure > you remember "Rosetta" too. IRIX on x86 would be heresy to some, but I'd > welcome it *especially* if it could dynamically translate MIPS ECOFF > binaries, and run legacy IRIX software. I know the lawyers would never let > any of that happen, but a man needs to have some dreams. :-) > >> It?s also keeping in character with the old machines. It?s not adding new >> capabilities but more replacing old peripherals with something a bit more >> convenient. > > I see your point and I agree. > >> Adding in a new accelerator means not only developing the HW but also >> writing a boatload of *new* SW in order to be able to take advantage of >> it. > > An oil-tanker sized boat. Yep. Unless of course you could keep everything > pin compatible etc... which is even harder. "We're gonna need a bigger > boat." > >> Most of what you see (and what I?m mainly doing these days in terms of >> ?hobby?) is producing parts to a system in order to keep it running rather >> than adding completely new capabilities. > > Well, I appreciate that fact that anyone is doing anything! If I ever > meet "Lotharek" I'm definitely buying him a round. I get excited just > looking at some old gear that someone's cleaned up nicely or polished the > face panels on. I'd probably die in an apoplectic fit if I ever saw an ad > for an SGI accel board. If I ever make someone mad, they could totally get > back at me by handing me a fake flyer for "Press release: Acme Inc > releases SGI MIPS accelerator board based off high speed GPU". When I > found out it was bogus I'd go jump off the roof. Joking aside, I do see > your point about restoring vs enhancing, and it's well taken. > >> Most companies would rather spend their time and budget doing things for >> a high ROI and for large and growing markets. > > Amen brother, I was just wishing out loud. I needed someone to bring me back > to Earth. > > -Swift > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 22 15:47:21 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 16:47:21 -0400 Subject: Apple LaserWriter - was Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <571A8DD9.3010306@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-22 4:28 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 22 Apr 2016, Eric Christopherson wrote: >> I like the new types of peripherals but it makes me a little >> uncomfortable >> knowing that e.g. in the case of the uIEC-SD for Commodores, the clock >> speed of the peripheral is 16 to 20 times that of the original host >> CPU. I >> keep hatching little schemes of perhaps putting a tiny OS kernel in the >> thing, but at that point *it* would become the computer and the 128 would >> be just sort of sitting there. The same is true of the CosmosEx device >> I've >> been thinking of getting for my Atari STs; it has a Raspberry Pi inside. > > I heard at the time, that the Apple Laserwriter was the "most powerful" > machine that they made, and that certain people were connecting > terminals to it and programming in Postscript. I did some trivial > programming in Postscript, but didn't have a Laserwriter. It was a > stack based language, with similarities to Forth. I suspect that the > "terminals" were actually terminal emulation in whichever machines were > currently connected anyway. Yes, it had RS232 serial (and AppleTalk), like all the early PostScript devices. It wasn't _that_ fast, though: 12 MHz 68K running an interpreted language (with no doubt native code for the graphics implementation; perhaps that's where its reputation for speed came from, but only useful for its actual purpose, printing :). I suppose one could say that it was a little faster hardware-wise than the Macs of 1985, but they were usually running native code, so the comparison isn't very useful imho. --Toby > > I made a company logo that was outline letters with a fill of lines > radiating from a point (think about Moire pattern artifacts when pushing > the resolution limits). Then I found that the "Freedom Of Press" > Postscript emulation of the commercial large format printer was too > slow, and did not have a large enough stack space. (whilst other > deadlines were looming). > > > From ethan at 757.org Fri Apr 22 15:58:10 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 16:58:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> The same is true of the CosmosEx device I've been thinking of getting for >> my Atari STs; it has a Raspberry Pi inside. > That thing is rad. I didn't know about it. I never owned an ST, but lately > I've considered getting one. I like the all-in-one designs, but I'd probably > go for the full size rig in the end. Wait, nevermind, I seem to remember my > SO threatening bodily harm if anymore old gear showed up.... It's a bit different but I opted for the Ultrasatan board from Lotarek. A friend gave me "long term loan" of some Atari ST hardware and a TT030. One of the computers is a Mega 2 with a bad floppy, no luck in fixing the floppy and it has a custom plastic from bezel that looks cool as hell (don't just want to drop a jumperable PC drive in it.) So I bought the ultrasatan that emulates the ACSI HDD. Mounted it internally near the rear expansion cover so I could access the card through the back. Have it running Notator and a few other programs. The Amiga was better than the ST, but well... those midi ports! Not exactly fatboy slim here just want to play with some history. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 16:09:46 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 17:09:46 -0400 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Sotomayor" Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 2:25 PM ... >Most companies would rather spend their time and budget doing things for a high ROI and for large and growing markets. >TTFN - Guy ------------ True in general of course and a board like this is probably not exactly up his alley, but let's not forget that there are folks out there like our own Jim Brain who design and build/sell items with a limited market and ROI mainly for the satisfaction of contributing to the hobby. http://store.go4retro.com/ m From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Apr 22 16:12:56 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 14:12:56 -0700 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Apr 22, 2016, at 2:09 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Guy Sotomayor" > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 2:25 PM > ... >> Most companies would rather > spend their time and budget doing things for a high ROI and for large and > growing markets. > >> TTFN - Guy > ------------ > True in general of course and a board like this is probably not exactly up his alley, but let's not forget that there are folks out there like our own Jim Brain who design and build/sell items with a limited market and ROI mainly for the satisfaction of contributing to the hobby. > > http://store.go4retro.com/ > As am I?just in a more limited way due to time constraints. ;-) TTFN - Guy From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 16:17:15 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 15:17:15 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > SGI stuff is still much under wraps as far as I know. Thats why NetBSD > and similar for SGI are still pretty rudimentary. All propriatary, those > groups don't want to use stolen info, and who knows if the documentation > still even exists after the rackable purchase. Rackable totally needs to release that stuff, but the lawyer-weasels are probably never going to let that happen due to all the cross-licensed code in IRIX. However, I still wish they'd release hardware specs. I wonder what that could hurt? Maybe it's the same type of thing if they OEM'd too many parts. I think IRIX support of any kinds ends this year (for 6.5.30 on a Tezro only). Maybe they will reconsider after they don't get any $$$ from it in order to build some good will and gain some street cred. Yes, I know.. feel free to wake me up anytime... > High clock rates for data busses of modern systems wouldn't work with old > style card edge interconnects AFAIK. Ahh, yeah I forgot that's why they did that (move to BGA and such). I'll bet you are right. It'd have to go in the processor slot. > Also, I don't think the old PPC accelerators for the Amiga or the ones for > the Macs (that sometimes had CPU upgrade slots) would really accelerate > everything - you might get faster processor instructions and maybe L1/L2 > cache -- but memory and I/O are still slow? That's totally true from my recollection. However, some of the boards for the Amiga would co-locate additional RAM on the accel board. That was a bit of an in-between state. Nonetheless the faster CPU(s) would generally have some positive impact. Plus, some of the boards were just plain neat looking and made your Amiga look even-more-awesome (to my geek eyes, at least). > They were really expensive at the time :-) US dollars have lost a lot of > value (especially given overpriced housing.) The old $3000 Tandy system > with a 20 meg hard card and TGA/CGA graphics is like $7000 in todays cash. Which is why I never owned one :-) My parents were so poor when I was a kid I slept in a dresser drawer (until I outgrew it). hehe. I only got cast-off gear at that time, usually 10 years behind the state of the art (mostly stuff my mom found at garage sales). > Amiga stuff was always pretty expensive, and you had to pay VGA monitor > prices for it's crappy TV display (1084S). Awww. That truth stings. :-) It sure was a purty video display and playing SNES and Genesis games on it rocked. > And yea, at least Atari stuff was made in Taiwan so they were using > cheaper labor then too. Heh, Atari always was a forerunner. Guess they pioneered offshoring, too. :-) > You gotta build it! Oh man, I can barely repair my guitar amps when they fail. You guys would laugh hard watching me try to run a scope, too. I can fix monitors, sometimes (used to do it back in the day for a job). Mostly, I'm a 'test post' electronics tech. I can measure voltages, run a solder-sucker, tell the diff between most components, and possibly not burn and bird-crap all my joints, but I pretty well suck at electronics. I'm not even close to skilled enough with digital component layout tools, logic analyzers, verilog, FPGAS, etc.. as what I'd need to be and I doubt I could learn it fast enough to be useful, but who knows. Like you say, the tools today are amazing. I'm more of a software and integration guy, but I'm interested in just about everything technical, even biology (esp female biology, har har) ! :-) -Swift From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 22 16:24:19 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 14:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple LaserWriter - was Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <571A8DD9.3010306@telegraphics.com.au> References: <571A8DD9.3010306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2016, Toby Thain wrote: > Yes, it had RS232 serial (and AppleTalk), like all the early PostScript > devices. > It wasn't _that_ fast, though: 12 MHz 68K running an interpreted language it would certainly not be fast by any recent standards, and I had always assumed that the speed differential was pretty minor. From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Apr 22 16:33:38 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 14:33:38 -0700 Subject: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: <1286318429.221587.1461329093843.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1286318429.221587.1461329093843.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1286318429.221587.1461329093843.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8160520C-9493-45B1-82DF-248B95DD62DA@nf6x.net> > On Apr 22, 2016, at 05:44, Kevin Anderson wrote: > > The Vulcan Operation System (VOS) I wish I could remember what operating system was in use on the Harris that I used at UNLV in 1987-1989. I was given a slim photocopied booklet listing the basic instructions I needed to use, and using the computer was just incidental to a course (probably a FORTRAN course?). Thus, developing any fluency with the computer beyond dialing in, running a compiler, running the compiled program, and doing something with the results was beyond the scope of the course. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 16:48:47 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 15:48:47 -0600 (MDT) Subject: shell accounts [was RE: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <23CFD16D40CF4E27B3280DB6032D01C0@310e2> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED13730@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <23CFD16D40CF4E27B3280DB6032D01C0@310e2> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2016, Mike Stein wrote: > What *is it* with the thin skins around here? Mike, sorry if I came across as being overly defensive or thin-skinned. I really don't want to step on toes, I'd rather just kick it with folks who share my interests. In retrospect, it might have been better if I just didn't respond. Also, it's pretty likely that folks were just expressing themselves and things went off the rails a bit. Email is weird that way. Sorry to all if I ruffled feathers. I'm not really that prickly, I just felt I could try to move the conversation along even though I was skating the edge of some potential vitriol, as long as I was polite enough. It seems that I at least partially failed at doing that, Mike, since you picked up on a bit too much negativity and defensiveness. I'll turn down the amplifier a bit, and switch the station to easy listening for a while. :-) -Swift From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 22 17:10:15 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 23:10:15 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> > Just wondering if I should expect anything on the serial port or on the > monitor if my AlphaStation has an NVRAM self test failure. Anyone know? > > I still need to identify the NVRAM chip(s), although replacing them means > learning how to desolder and resolder surface mount stuff, which I have > never done before. > I posted a while back about this problem. I am wondering if I have a chance of reviving this system or if it is beyond repair (by me)? I can't get anything out of the console port, and I don't know if I should expect to be able to get output from there or not. If I know that I should expect output on the serial port despite an NVRAM self-test failure then I could investigate that further with my breakout box (don't have a protocol analyser). I have been unable to identify the NVRAM chips either. Thanks for any help. Regards Rob From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 17:20:26 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:20:26 -0400 Subject: shell accounts [was RE: strangest systems I've sent email from] References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED13730@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <23CFD16D40CF4E27B3280DB6032D01C0@310e2> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Swift Griggs" Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 5:48 PM > On Fri, 22 Apr 2016, Mike Stein wrote: >> What *is it* with the thin skins around here? > > Mike, sorry if I came across as being overly defensive or thin-skinned. > I really don't want to step on toes, I'd rather just kick it with folks > who share my interests. In retrospect, it might have been better if I > just didn't respond. Also, it's pretty likely that folks were just > expressing themselves and things went off the rails a bit. Email is weird > that way. > > Sorry to all if I ruffled feathers. I'm not really that prickly, I just > felt I could try to move the conversation along even though I was skating > the edge of some potential vitriol, as long as I was polite enough. It > seems that I at least partially failed at doing that, Mike, since you > picked up on a bit too much negativity and defensiveness. > > I'll turn down the amplifier a bit, and switch the station to easy > listening for a while. :-) > > -Swift ------------- No problem, and for goodness' sakes don't stop sharing your insights, experiences and opinions. My feathers weren't ruffled, I just naively wish that intelligent folks could compare different PoVs, opinions and perspectives without personally judging or feeling judged, especially since I've often been guilty myself. There's no right or wrong or even better or worse in most of these issues, it's usually just a question of circumstances, priorities and subjective opinions which we really ought to respect even if we disagree. The public example set by the US presidential candidates isn't very encouraging though... ;-) /End Sermon/ m From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 17:25:38 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 15:25:38 -0700 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Apr 22, 2016 3:10 PM, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: > > I posted a while back about this problem. > > I am wondering if I have a chance of reviving this system or if it is beyond > repair (by me)? I can't get anything out of the console port, and I don't > know if I should expect to be able to get output from there or not. If I > know that I should expect output on the serial port despite an NVRAM > self-test failure then I could investigate that further with my breakout box > (don't have a protocol analyser). > > I have been unable to identify the NVRAM chips either. > > Thanks for any help. > > Regards > > Rob > Did you already try replacing the CR2032 battery? From ethan at 757.org Fri Apr 22 17:58:52 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:58:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > I posted a while back about this problem. > I am wondering if I have a chance of reviving this system or if it is beyond > repair (by me)? I can't get anything out of the console port, and I don't > know if I should expect to be able to get output from there or not. If I > know that I should expect output on the serial port despite an NVRAM > self-test failure then I could investigate that further with my breakout box > (don't have a protocol analyser). > I have been unable to identify the NVRAM chips either. > Thanks for any help. > Regards > Rob I'm not familiar with that particular system, but there are similar issues in the arcade game world (and I guess to a lesser degree Sun Sparcstation.) Someone mentioned there is a battery. It could be held by that, or a module from ST Microelectronics or Dallas Semiconductor. The latter two tend to be plastic packages that are ~28 pins or so and taller than normal chips. The Dallas and ST modules have RAM/real time clock and a battery in one package. In the case of some arcade games (Silent Scope from Konami is a big one), once the NVRAM looses it's contents the machine wont load past it in the bootup process. On the Sun Workstations when the modules go bad it will boot but but the MAC address is blank. It's possible to reprogram the contents back on the Sun workstations. If the case of the AlphaStation is that it can't get past post without the contents of the NVRAM, and the NVRAM is in a Dallas or STM module then the easy solution is to get a dump of a working system, perhaps hex edit the contents to correct the MAC address, then plug it in (hopefully socketed.) If the NVRam is held by a CR3202 battery and a SMD SRAM chip or something, there would have to be a way around it being blank I'd imagine. -- Ethan O'Toole From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 22 18:09:53 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 00:09:53 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <010f01d19cec$14449970$3ccdcc50$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: 22 April 2016 23:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > On Apr 22, 2016 3:10 PM, "Robert Jarratt" > wrote: > > > > I posted a while back about this problem. > > > > I am wondering if I have a chance of reviving this system or if it is > beyond > > repair (by me)? I can't get anything out of the console port, and I > > don't know if I should expect to be able to get output from there or > > not. If I know that I should expect output on the serial port despite > > an NVRAM self-test failure then I could investigate that further with > > my breakout > box > > (don't have a protocol analyser). > > > > I have been unable to identify the NVRAM chips either. > > > > Thanks for any help. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > Did you already try replacing the CR2032 battery? Yes I did :-( But I can check it again. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 22 18:17:15 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 00:17:15 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <011001d19ced$1bfb20c0$53f16240$@ntlworld.com> > > Someone mentioned there is a battery. It could be held by that, or a module > from ST Microelectronics or Dallas Semiconductor. The latter two tend to be > plastic packages that are ~28 pins or so and taller than normal chips. The > Dallas and ST modules have RAM/real time clock and a battery in one > package. > > In the case of some arcade games (Silent Scope from Konami is a big one), > once the NVRAM looses it's contents the machine wont load past it in the > bootup process. On the Sun Workstations when the modules go bad it will > boot but but the MAC address is blank. It's possible to reprogram the > contents back on the Sun workstations. > > If the case of the AlphaStation is that it can't get past post without the > contents of the NVRAM, and the NVRAM is in a Dallas or STM module then > the easy solution is to get a dump of a working system, perhaps hex edit the > contents to correct the MAC address, then plug it in (hopefully socketed.) > > If the NVRam is held by a CR3202 battery and a SMD SRAM chip or > something, there would have to be a way around it being blank I'd imagine. > In my case there is just a CR2032, and no Dallas module. I will try replacing the CR2032 again. Regards Rob From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 22 18:28:09 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 00:28:09 +0100 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <571AB389.7040402@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/04/2016 17:59, Liam Proven wrote: > On 20 April 2016 at 17:32, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> The Z80 CoPro ran CP/M - real licensed CP/M 2.2, not the bastardised >> often-not-compatible "CPN" lookalike offered by Torch, and came with GEM and >> various office software. > GEM's graphics API, the VDI, was partly based on Digital's Research's > CP/M graphics API, GSX, though. Ah yes, random access memory. You're right of course, it was GSX. Well spotted :-) -- Pete From ethan at 757.org Fri Apr 22 18:35:23 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 19:35:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <011001d19ced$1bfb20c0$53f16240$@ntlworld.com> References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <011001d19ced$1bfb20c0$53f16240$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > In my case there is just a CR2032, and no Dallas module. I will try > replacing the CR2032 again. > Regards > Rob The NVRAM failure warning probably isn't the physical ram, it's the lack of contents. -- Ethan O'Toole From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 22 18:37:49 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 00:37:49 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <011001d19ced$1bfb20c0$53f16240$@ntlworld.com> References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <011001d19ced$1bfb20c0$53f16240$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <011301d19cef$fb366d60$f1a34820$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 23 April 2016 00:17 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > > > > > > Someone mentioned there is a battery. It could be held by that, or a > module > > from ST Microelectronics or Dallas Semiconductor. The latter two tend > > to > be > > plastic packages that are ~28 pins or so and taller than normal chips. > > The Dallas and ST modules have RAM/real time clock and a battery in > > one package. > > > > In the case of some arcade games (Silent Scope from Konami is a big > > one), once the NVRAM looses it's contents the machine wont load past > > it in the bootup process. On the Sun Workstations when the modules go > > bad it will boot but but the MAC address is blank. It's possible to > > reprogram the contents back on the Sun workstations. > > > > If the case of the AlphaStation is that it can't get past post without > > the contents of the NVRAM, and the NVRAM is in a Dallas or STM module > > then the easy solution is to get a dump of a working system, perhaps > > hex edit > the > > contents to correct the MAC address, then plug it in (hopefully > > socketed.) > > > > If the NVRam is held by a CR3202 battery and a SMD SRAM chip or > > something, there would have to be a way around it being blank I'd imagine. > > > > In my case there is just a CR2032, and no Dallas module. I will try replacing the > CR2032 again. > Just tried replacing the CR2032 again, but I get the same error :-( Regards Rob From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 22 18:37:54 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 00:37:54 +0100 Subject: shell accounts [was RE: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED13730@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <571AB5D2.3030905@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/04/2016 18:47, Swift Griggs wrote: #> I don't run a "full suite of servers". I run an SGI Challenge S that runs > on minimal power (about 14-30W most of the time, thus sayeth my > Kill-a-watt meter). It's the only system in my entire constellation of > systems that stays on all the time. I have some sympathy with that, as I run an Indy 24/7 and it's almost the only system here I do run all the time, apart from router and APs. And it serves at least one useful purpose, because we have a number of mail accounts from different providers, few of which support IMAP (don't mention gmail because it isn't). It's easy to run UW imapd and convenient to keep everything in one place. OK a Raspberry Pi would use less power, but is also less fun. -- Pete From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 22 18:37:48 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 00:37:48 +0100 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <571A8BAD.106@janadelsbach.com> References: <571A8BAD.106@janadelsbach.com> Message-ID: <571AB5CC.8030001@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/04/2016 21:38, Jan Adelsbach wrote: > Older SGI's have a VME bus and the GIO/GIO64 bus used for I think the > Indigo's and Indys and the small Challenges > is also documented. yes, it could be obtained through the Developer Program (I have a copy), though I seem to recall some strings attached. > There used to be an emulator from Stanford which could run IRIX 5.4 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SimOS Perhaps you mean IRIX 5.3, the last 5.x, which ran on Indy, Indigo, Challenge, etc, or 6.4 which was an early special for the Octane and O2000/Onyx2. There's no IRIX 5.4, at least, not released. It went from 5.3 to the very short-lived 6.0.1, then 6.2 (Indy, Indigo2, etc) 6.3 (first release for O2) and 6.4 (ditto for Octane, Onyx/O2K) and quickly to 6.5 across the product line. -- Pete From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 22 18:48:27 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 00:48:27 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <011001d19ced$1bfb20c0$53f16240$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <571AB84B.6020300@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/04/2016 00:35, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> In my case there is just a CR2032, and no Dallas module. I will try >> replacing the CR2032 again. >> Regards >> Rob > > The NVRAM failure warning probably isn't the physical ram, it's the lack > of contents. Yep, used to be a problem even in the mid-1990s with some Suns. We used to keep a copy of at least every MAC address so we could reprogram them, and advocated keeping a dump of the rest of the contents too. Similar problem on SGIs later, which reminds me of a trick an SGI engineer showed me for Indys. If you need to replace the Dallas chip, especially with one "borrowed" fom another machine,first put it in backwards. That wipes it - most importantly, the MAC address, on which some licences depend - and lets the machine boot to the PROM as far as you need to reprogram the necessary variables. I accept no responsibility for any problems arising from testing this however! -- Pete From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 22 18:55:09 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 00:55:09 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <011301d19cef$fb366d60$f1a34820$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <011001d19ced$1bfb20c0$53f16240$@ntlworld.com> <011301d19cef$fb366d60$f1a34820$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <571AB9DD.2020302@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/04/2016 00:37, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Just tried replacing the CR2032 again, but I get the same error :-( Then the CMOS RAM - which is what the battery is for - has lost its memory. The CMOS could be an individual chip but it's more likely to be part of something else, like a Motorola real time clock IC - and hopefully socketed as Ethan suggested, otherwise you get more practice with your desoldering gun ;-) -- Pete From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 19:06:13 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:06:13 -0600 Subject: COSMAC Elf switch panel using PCBs Message-ID: I built a new Elf switch panel, but this time I used two printed circuit boards for the switches and the bezel. The bezel PCB has white soldermask with black silkscreen. The next revision will have black soldermask with white silkscreen, and the legend font, weight, and positioning changed to more closely match the original Elf photo in Popular Electronics. https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/sets/72157667455777465 The 20-pin header has the same pinout as Bob Armstrong used for the Spare Time Gizmos Elf 2000, but I don't presently have an Elf 2000 to test it with. For now the main intent is to use the panel for a new version of my FPGA Elf. I'm not sure whether I got the wiring of the LOAD switch correct; the Elf 2000 documentation refers to normally closed and normally open contacts of that switch, but for a toggle switch that doesn't make any sense to me. If anyone can tell me which pins of the Elf 2000 connector are grounded when the load switch is active vs inactive, that would be appreciated. The 20-pin header should have been right angle; since I only had a vertical header on-hand, the ribbon cable had to be plugged in before the switches were soldered in place, and the switches are not flush with the switch PCB. The toggle switches and push-button switch are C&K 7101SDV3BE and 8125SDV3BE, respectively, which have 0.42 inch actuator, 0.28 inch threaded bushing with keyway, vertical PCB mount with V-bracket, gold contacts, chrome actuator finish, and nickel bushing finish. These particular C&K switch variants are not very common, so I'll probably use different ones in the future, without the V-bracket. I don't yet have enough of the red and white toggle caps, which are C&K 896803000 and 896801000, respectively. The red button for the push-button switch is C&K 801803000. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 19:15:56 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:15:56 -0600 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:07 AM, Raymond Wiker wrote: > I was a bit surprised to see that it used 2901 with a date code of 1985 - > the 2901 was introduced 10 years before. The 2901 was the workhorse bit-slice data path chip for many years. The A, B, and C suffix parts were progressively faster variants introduced later. Eventually there were CMOS versions, and 16-bit-wide versions. While AMD introduced the 2903 and 29203 as functionally improved (but not directly compatible) 4-bit parts, they weren't nearly as widely used as the 2901. Most other bit-slice parts can be considered "also-ran" at best, with the Intel 3001 and 3002 probably being the next most successful. MMI tried to beat AMD to market with the 5701/6701, which was very similar to (but not compatible with) the 2901, but they were late to market and AMD won. Motorola offered the MC10800 ECL bit slice series, which were significantly faster at introduction than the contemporary Am2900 parts, but AMD kept introducing faster 2901s. Some later 2901 variants from AMD and National Semiconductor actually used ECL internally, but had normal TTL I/O, but the CMOS that followed were even faster than those. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 19:25:06 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 20:25:06 -0400 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There was a 29G01 offered for a short time. Worth several times their weight in gold. -- Will On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:15 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:07 AM, Raymond Wiker wrote: >> I was a bit surprised to see that it used 2901 with a date code of 1985 - >> the 2901 was introduced 10 years before. > > The 2901 was the workhorse bit-slice data path chip for many years. > The A, B, and C suffix parts were progressively faster variants > introduced later. Eventually there were CMOS versions, and 16-bit-wide > versions. While AMD introduced the 2903 and 29203 as functionally > improved (but not directly compatible) 4-bit parts, they weren't > nearly as widely used as the 2901. > > Most other bit-slice parts can be considered "also-ran" at best, with > the Intel 3001 and 3002 probably being the next most successful. MMI > tried to beat AMD to market with the 5701/6701, which was very similar > to (but not compatible with) the 2901, but they were late to market > and AMD won. > > Motorola offered the MC10800 ECL bit slice series, which were > significantly faster at introduction than the contemporary Am2900 > parts, but AMD kept introducing faster 2901s. Some later 2901 > variants from AMD and National Semiconductor actually used ECL > internally, but had normal TTL I/O, but the CMOS that followed were > even faster than those. From macro at linux-mips.org Fri Apr 22 19:25:39 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 01:25:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I am wondering if I have a chance of reviving this system or if it is beyond > repair (by me)? I can't get anything out of the console port, and I don't > know if I should expect to be able to get output from there or not. If I > know that I should expect output on the serial port despite an NVRAM > self-test failure then I could investigate that further with my breakout box > (don't have a protocol analyser). If all else fails, then perhaps you could try the SROM mini console to get further information, or maybe even recover as there are commands there to poke at hardware. Information on using that is however scarce and scattered, you can find some here to start: and then the pinout for the serial diagnostic port is included here: (the boot sequence is also described here, so you'll know that an NVRAM failure is reported by DROM code, i.e. before the final SRM or ARC console takes over and is able to use the regular serial port). That's a bit cryptic, but knowing that this is a low-level CPU interface you can gather the wiring from this document: . So BSROMCLK is Tx and SROMCDAT is Rx, but as noted here and in the discussion in the first reference you need an EIA/TIA 232 driver and receiver (there is power available on the diagnostic port, so you can use it for the circuit), and of course you need to cross the lines wiring them to your host. Finally the SROM console command reference is here: . This manual doesn't specifically cover the Avanti, but I'd expect the user interface to be similar -- it's a low-level tool close to the CPU after all. NB on Avanti the 8kB NVRAM is separate from the TOY/NVR chip (which is a Benchmarq BQ4285, providing 114B of general storage only). Hope this helps and good luck with system recovery! Maciej From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 22 19:25:58 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 20:25:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <201604230025.UAA26602@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The Internet is a large, but still textbook case of what happens when > you let business-weasels in on something good. [...] Aye. I agree with you right down the line. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 19:36:40 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:36:40 -0600 (MDT) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <571AB9DD.2020302@dunnington.plus.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <011001d19ced$1bfb20c0$53f16240$@ntlworld.com> <011301d19cef$fb366d60$f1a34820$@ntlworld.com> <571AB9DD.2020302@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Apr 2016, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Then the CMOS RAM - which is what the battery is for - has lost its > memory. The CMOS could be an individual chip but it's more likely to be > part of something else, like a Motorola real time clock IC They are socketed on GS series machines, IIRC. It's a wierd looking socket, too (burly and with a bulge at once side, IIRC). Those are significantly newer and were higher-end servers than the AS200, which is a desktop, as you are aware. The CMOS chip is usually in a little black retangular box about 1" x 1.5" and the leads went all the way through the PCB. I had to remove the mobo to get to them, use a solder-sucker to remove the flux mask globbed over the joints and then the liquid metal, then replaced with a cannabalized chip from parts-donor box of the same type. I used a 15W iron. BTW, I'm a total amature with electronics, so feel free to second guess my procedure. However, I've fixed those exact errors with that swap, so it's worth a shot. What sucks is that many AS desktops had two Dallas black boxes that looked very similar right next to each other. I just ending up guessing right. IIRC, they are located on the exact opposite corner of the mobo from the battery you just swapped out. With no keyboard plugged in, you should definitely be getting SRM firmware init information via serial port 1. 9600 8N1 with software flow control is what I use and it works great. I've used that and many other Alphas before, in fact I still have clients using them and I support Tru64 weekly and teach Tru64 classes. I'm not the best guy on hardware, though I try. -Swift From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 19:37:42 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:37:42 -0600 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 6:25 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > There was a 29G01 offered for a short time. Worth several times their > weight in gold. Yes, I forgot about those. Gallium arsenide MESFET for very high speed. Anyone have data sheets for that family? From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 19:40:01 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:40:01 -0600 Subject: CDP1861 PIXIE graphics chip replacement for COSMAC Elf Message-ID: In development. Inspired by the Spare Time Gizmos STG1861, but not based on that design. Rev. 0, not yet ready for production: https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/sets/72157667299828132 It is 2.0 inch by 0.7 inch, with a 24-pin round-pin DIP header to plug into a normal 24-pin DIP socket (vs. more the common square pins that won't work with normal IC sockets). The surface-mount components were assembled onto the board by a commercial service, which does not do through-hole, so I had to solder the DIP header by hand. I had to make the pads for the DIP header very small to squeeze the TQFP CPLD between the rows, so it turns out to be unsuitable for hand assembly by novices. Since I am not willing to do the hand assembly for other people, I'm not sure whether this board would actually be worth selling; I might have too many customers that aren't able to assemble it successfully. The CPLD programming is done by a "Tag Connect", which uses pogo pins to contact the ten gold pads seen on the top of the board. There are holes near those pads for the Tag Connect's steel alignment pins; while there is enough clearance on the top of the board, I failed to consider that the frame of the DIP header on the bottom of the board would prevent two of the alignment pins from extending far enough. I had to cut out part of the DIP header frame. The CPLD code has been written but has not yet been debugged. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 19:51:51 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 20:51:51 -0400 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I do, back at my old house. I even have a bunch of the old 10G line of chips, unused. They came out of Collins surplus back in the early 1990s. -- Will On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 6:25 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> There was a 29G01 offered for a short time. Worth several times their >> weight in gold. > > Yes, I forgot about those. Gallium arsenide MESFET for very high > speed. Anyone have data sheets for that family? From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 20:10:27 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 20:10:27 -0500 Subject: CDP1861 PIXIE graphics chip replacement for COSMAC Elf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Eric, Needless to say, it both sounds and looks pretty dang cool. Unfortunately, as a low-ranking tech nerd, this kind of stuff is outside of my scope and well above my pay grade. Is the PIXIE chip a common point of failure in those machines.. many out of service for lack of one..? Clue a newb, would you? On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 7:40 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > In development. Inspired by the Spare Time Gizmos STG1861, but not > based on that design. Rev. 0, not yet ready for production: > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/sets/72157667299828132 > > It is 2.0 inch by 0.7 inch, with a 24-pin round-pin DIP header to plug > into a normal 24-pin DIP socket (vs. more the common square pins that > won't work with normal IC sockets). > > The surface-mount components were assembled onto the board by a > commercial service, which does not do through-hole, so I had to solder > the DIP header by hand. I had to make the pads for the DIP header > very small to squeeze the TQFP CPLD between the rows, so it turns out > to be unsuitable for hand assembly by novices. Since I am not willing > to do the hand assembly for other people, I'm not sure whether this > board would actually be worth selling; I might have too many customers > that aren't able to assemble it successfully. > > The CPLD programming is done by a "Tag Connect", which uses pogo pins > to contact the ten gold pads seen on the top of the board. There are > holes near those pads for the Tag Connect's steel alignment pins; > while there is enough clearance on the top of the board, I failed to > consider that the frame of the DIP header on the bottom of the board > would prevent two of the alignment pins from extending far enough. I > had to cut out part of the DIP header frame. > > The CPLD code has been written but has not yet been debugged. > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Apr 22 20:28:21 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:28:21 -0700 Subject: Sony eVilla BeIA (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3084B5D7-2FD1-4A7B-862B-FF5F782F7BC2@eschatologist.net> On Apr 19, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > 2. Sony eVilla BeIA appliance using some kind of (crappy) built-in mail > application. Were these ever actually shipped? I only recall hearing that they were in development. -- Chris From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 22 21:42:38 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 20:42:38 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201604230025.UAA26602@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604230025.UAA26602@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <571AE11E.5060208@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/22/2016 6:25 PM, Mouse wrote: >> The Internet is a large, but still textbook case of what happens when >> you let business-weasels in on something good. [...] > > Aye. I agree with you right down the line. I don't know about that, The PORN redirects still show up now and then. Internet TV, seems to be the latest gimmick, mostly for your phone. > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > Ben. PS: I use a REAL PHONE ... NO computer just a bell handset and dial. From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Apr 22 21:54:10 2016 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 23:54:10 -0300 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> Eric Smith mentioned: > [2901 A, B, and C, CMOS versions] > [2903 and 29203] > [Intel 3001 and 3002] > [MMI 5701/6701] > [Motorola MC10800] I'd add the Texas Instruments SN74S481, SN54LS481 and SN74LS481 TTL 4 bit slices. The Schottky version had a 90ns clock cycle and the low power versions 120ns. These were 48 pins chips and didn't have an internal register bank like the 2901. The idea was that you implemented a memory to memory architecture like the TMS9900. The TI SBP0400A and SBP0401A were I2L 4 bit slices. The 400 had an internal pipeline register while the 401 was designed for external pipelining. ALU operations took 240ns at 200mW. It had an 8 register bank besides the working register. All I know about these is what I read in "The Bipolar Micromputer Components Data Book", December 1977 edition. I have no idea if these chips were actually shipped or if they were used in any product. -- Jecel From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 22 22:04:07 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 20:04:07 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <571AE11E.5060208@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604230025.UAA26602@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <571AE11E.5060208@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <571AE627.3090304@sydex.com> On 04/22/2016 07:42 PM, ben wrote: > PS: I use a REAL PHONE ... NO computer just a bell handset and dial. Yeah, me too, though I have a thin client and old modem connected to the line to screen out junk calls. My lovely spouse owns a mobile phone, but it's just that, no smarts about it. If someone wants to text me, they can use my GV number. That puts us in the 9% of the industrialized world's population that doesn't use mobile phone, according to what I've read. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 22:13:35 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 21:13:35 -0600 Subject: CDP1861 PIXIE graphics chip replacement for COSMAC Elf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 7:10 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Is the PIXIE chip a common point of failure in those machines.. many out of > service for lack of one..? The ELF as presented in the original construction article (Popular Electronics, August 1976) didn't have any video support. That was added with the CDP1861 "PIXIE" graphics chip in part 4 of the series (July 1977). As such, it is an optional feature for both home-made ELFs and some of the commercially produced kits and products. If you want to build an ELF with graphics now, or add graphics to an existing ELF, the CDP1861 is really hard to find. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 22 22:16:35 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 20:16:35 -0700 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <571AE913.4060806@sydex.com> On 04/22/2016 07:54 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > I'd add the Texas Instruments SN74S481, SN54LS481 and SN74LS481 TTL > 4 bit slices. The Schottky version had a 90ns clock cycle and the > low power versions 120ns. These were 48 pins chips and didn't have > an internal register bank like the 2901. The idea was that you > implemented a memory to memory architecture like the TMS9900. Not exactly bit-slice, but how about the National IMP-16 chip set? --Chuck From spc at conman.org Fri Apr 22 22:29:44 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 23:29:44 -0400 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160423032944.GA32694@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated: > > Remember all the accelerator boards for the Mac, Amiga, and even PCs in the > 90's ? I've often wished that I could get something similar on my older SGI > systems. For example, fitting an R16k into an O2 or doing dynamic > translation on a 4.0Ghz i7. One major problem with adding a faster CPU to an SGI is the MIPS chip itself---code compiled for one MIPS CPU (say, the R3000) won't run on another MIPS CPU (say, the R4400) due to the differences in the pipeline. MIPS compilers were specific for a chip because such details were not hidden in the CPU itself, but left to the compiler to deal with. -spc (Who had near exclusive use of an SGI in college in the early 90s) From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 22:31:36 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 22:31:36 -0500 Subject: CDP1861 PIXIE graphics chip replacement for COSMAC Elf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, Ok! Thanks for that.. didn't know squat about the Cosmac ELF. I've certainly heard the name over the years, but never bothered to investigate it. Again, this is one of those seminal enthusiast designs from the nascient hobby micro-computing era, just a few years prior to my initiation. My first computing experiences were (briefly) on an M33-ASR and then an Apple II. On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 10:13 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 7:10 PM, drlegendre . > wrote: > > Is the PIXIE chip a common point of failure in those machines.. many out > of > > service for lack of one..? > > The ELF as presented in the original construction article (Popular > Electronics, August 1976) didn't have any video support. That was > added with the CDP1861 "PIXIE" graphics chip in part 4 of the series > (July 1977). As such, it is an optional feature for both home-made > ELFs and some of the commercially produced kits and products. > > If you want to build an ELF with graphics now, or add graphics to an > existing ELF, the CDP1861 is really hard to find. > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 22 22:36:47 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 21:36:47 -0600 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <571AEDCF.4000303@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/22/2016 8:54 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Eric Smith mentioned: >> [2901 A, B, and C, CMOS versions] >> [2903 and 29203] >> [Intel 3001 and 3002] >> [MMI 5701/6701] >> [Motorola MC10800] > > I'd add the Texas Instruments SN74S481, SN54LS481 and SN74LS481 TTL 4 > bit slices. The Schottky version had a 90ns clock cycle and the low > power versions 120ns. These were 48 pins chips and didn't have an > internal register bank like the 2901. The idea was that you implemented > a memory to memory architecture like the TMS9900. > > The TI SBP0400A and SBP0401A were I2L 4 bit slices. The 400 had an > internal pipeline register while the 401 was designed for external > pipelining. ALU operations took 240ns at 200mW. It had an 8 register > bank besides the working register. > > All I know about these is what I read in "The Bipolar Micromputer > Components Data Book", December 1977 edition. I have no idea if these > chips were actually shipped or if they were used in any product. > > -- Jecel I think the problem was memory at the time. What was the use having a FAST bitslice machine, but real memory at the time was SMALL and SLOw. Then if you could get a nice machine, you could never get out of the School or Lab home with you. The Lilith computer comes to mind here. Ben. PS: http://www.projectoberon.com/ A computer design A few generations after Lilith. Here a FPGA risc cpu and fast static memory. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 22 22:38:44 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 21:38:44 -0600 Subject: CDP1861 PIXIE graphics chip replacement for COSMAC Elf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <571AEE44.1010109@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/22/2016 9:13 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 7:10 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> Is the PIXIE chip a common point of failure in those machines.. many out of >> service for lack of one..? > > The ELF as presented in the original construction article (Popular > Electronics, August 1976) didn't have any video support. That was > added with the CDP1861 "PIXIE" graphics chip in part 4 of the series > (July 1977). As such, it is an optional feature for both home-made > ELFs and some of the commercially produced kits and products. > > If you want to build an ELF with graphics now, or add graphics to an > existing ELF, the CDP1861 is really hard to find. > I think the OLD 12" B&W TV is harder to find. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 22 23:03:33 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 22:03:33 -0600 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <571AE913.4060806@sydex.com> References: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> <571AE913.4060806@sydex.com> Message-ID: <571AF415.8010600@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/22/2016 9:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/22/2016 07:54 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > >> I'd add the Texas Instruments SN74S481, SN54LS481 and SN74LS481 TTL >> 4 bit slices. The Schottky version had a 90ns clock cycle and the >> low power versions 120ns. These were 48 pins chips and didn't have >> an internal register bank like the 2901. The idea was that you >> implemented a memory to memory architecture like the TMS9900. > > > Not exactly bit-slice, but how about the National IMP-16 chip set? Too Early , Too Slow , Too $$$ is my guess. With out the 6800/6502 8080/Z80 price wars, how much would a 8 bit CPU be in the late 70s? $75? > --Chuck > Ben. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 22 23:10:55 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 23:10:55 -0500 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <571AF5CF.9080209@pico-systems.com> I built a 32-bit micro-engine for a project that was eventually going to be an IBM 360-line CPU. I pieced the 360, not because it was the greatest design, but it was VERY well laid-out and would be easy to write efficient microcode for. I used the 2903 with 2910 controller. I was able to get it to run at 8 MHz, with 3-address operations running at 6 MHz. But, the project got bogged down, as at a certain point, I realized HOW MUCH more work lay ahead of me to get a working system. I had to add 2 more features to the micro-engine - a 256-way branch from the op-code, and some OR gates to OR in the register address fields. Then, I had to build a system bus and memory interface. (I was going to make the I/O architecture much more like a PDP-11 than the 360 channel architecture.) Then, I had to design a general-purpose peripheral controller. I had a VERY rough sketch for about a 20-chip micro-machine using (probably) 3 byte-wide EPROMS for instructions) that would hopefully run at 4 MHz. Then, I had to build a SCSI controller (I already had a SASI disk on my S-100 system), a serial mux and a tape controller. Finally, I had to write at least a primitive OS and figure out how to come up with compilers for it. Had I known that UNIX-360 existed, I might have tried to make some kind of port of that. But, obviously, YEARS of work would have been needed to make it usable. See http://pico-systems.com/stories/1982.html for some pics and description of it. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 22 23:13:34 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 23:13:34 -0500 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <571AEDCF.4000303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> <571AEDCF.4000303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <571AF66E.4090607@pico-systems.com> On 04/22/2016 10:36 PM, ben wrote: > > I think the problem was memory at the time. What was the > use having > a FAST bitslice machine, but real memory at the time was > SMALL and SLOw. Well, I had 45 ns static RAM for control store on my 2903 bit slice machine. Yes, those were 1K x 4 chips, and I put heat sinks on them, they ran that hot. Obviously, large main memory was going to have to run slower. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 22 23:17:00 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 21:17:00 -0700 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <571AF415.8010600@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> <571AE913.4060806@sydex.com> <571AF415.8010600@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <571AF73C.70208@sydex.com> On 04/22/2016 09:03 PM, ben wrote: > Too Early , Too Slow , Too $$$ is my guess. With out the 6800/6502 > 8080/Z80 price wars, how much would a 8 bit CPU be in the late 70s? > $75? Given the price of memory and other "then-LSI" in the late 70s, $75 doesn't sound unreasonable at all. NSC did bring out the PACE, which was essentially a single-chip version of an IMP-16 implementation. But, like all things National, they didn't know how to sell any of their own stuff. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 22 23:36:55 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 22:36:55 -0600 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <571AF73C.70208@sydex.com> References: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> <571AE913.4060806@sydex.com> <571AF415.8010600@jetnet.ab.ca> <571AF73C.70208@sydex.com> Message-ID: <571AFBE7.7070506@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/22/2016 10:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/22/2016 09:03 PM, ben wrote: > >> Too Early , Too Slow , Too $$$ is my guess. With out the 6800/6502 >> 8080/Z80 price wars, how much would a 8 bit CPU be in the late 70s? >> $75? > > Given the price of memory and other "then-LSI" in the late 70s, $75 > doesn't sound unreasonable at all. NSC did bring out the PACE, which > was essentially a single-chip version of an IMP-16 implementation. > > But, like all things National, they didn't know how to sell any of their > own stuff. > > --Chuck > What about Radio Shack? $2 for 7400 or 50 cents a gate. Now the latest INTEL product has how many gates again? Sadly in hindsight what made the Personal Computer was the IBM XT. Real Video and Fixed Disk and lots of Memory and a Warranty. What is on the inside, the greatest profit magin chips of course. Ben. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 00:12:40 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 23:12:40 -0600 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <571AF415.8010600@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> <571AE913.4060806@sydex.com> <571AF415.8010600@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 10:03 PM, ben wrote: >> Not exactly bit-slice, but how about the National IMP-16 chip set? It's bit-slice. The RALU chips were four bits wide, and were used in at least three different processor architectures, the IMP-4, IMP-8, and IMP-16. (Despite the similarity of naming, the actual architectures aren't very similar.) The CROM (Control ROM) could be custom microcoded for other architectures. > Too Early , Not too early to be bit-slice. The DEC PDP-6 was implemented as bit-slice, but not with ICs. > Too Slow , It looks amazingly slow now, but compared to other things available in 1974, it was reasonable. > Too $$$ is my guess. Actually it was cheap, again by comparison to contemporary things. > With out the 6800/6502 8080/Z80 price wars, how much would a 8 bit > CPU be in the late 70s? $75? $395 for an 8080 in 1974. Under $20 for most 8-bitters by the end of 1979. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 00:16:49 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 23:16:49 -0600 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <20160423032944.GA32694@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160423032944.GA32694@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 9:29 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > One major problem with adding a faster CPU to an SGI is the MIPS chip > itself---code compiled for one MIPS CPU (say, the R3000) won't run on > another MIPS CPU (say, the R4400) due to the differences in the pipeline. > MIPS compilers were specific for a chip because such details were not hidden > in the CPU itself, but left to the compiler to deal with. Having written a bunch of R3000 and R4000/4200/4300/4400/4600 assembly code in the 1990s, my (possibly faulty) recollection disagrees with you. There are differences in supervisor-mode programming, but I don't recall any issues with running 32-bit user-mode R3000 code on any R4xxx. The programmer-visible pipelline behavior (e.g., branch delay slots) were the same. That's only considering the CPU itself, which I used as an embedded processor; I never used IRIX so I don't know whether IRIX on R4xxx might have somehow prevented use of IRIX R3xxx binaries (e.g., by different system call conventions or the like). From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 23 00:20:56 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 22:20:56 -0700 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <571AFBE7.7070506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> <571AE913.4060806@sydex.com> <571AF415.8010600@jetnet.ab.ca> <571AF73C.70208@sydex.com> <571AFBE7.7070506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <571B0638.3030908@sydex.com> On 04/22/2016 09:36 PM, ben wrote: > On 4/22/2016 10:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What about Radio Shack? $2 for 7400 or 50 cents a gate. Now the > latest INTEL product has how many gates again? By the mid 80s, some of us were trying to think of creative uses for the Z80, which was then going for less than 75 cents in OEM quantities. By then it was finding its way into PC peripherals. Time moves on. I'm holding one of those Intel souvenir 80386/80486 key fobs with the corresponding dice embedded in resin. It really is startling to see how much larger the 486 die is--and the 486 after introduction didn't cost proportionately more than the 80386. --Chuck From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 01:32:36 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 02:32:36 -0400 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <037601d19d29$ed778cb0$c866a610$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jecel Assumpcao Jr. Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 10:54 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) Eric Smith mentioned: > [2901 A, B, and C, CMOS versions] > [2903 and 29203] > [Intel 3001 and 3002] > [MMI 5701/6701] > [Motorola MC10800] I'd add the Texas Instruments SN74S481, SN54LS481 and SN74LS481 TTL 4 bit slices. The Schottky version had a 90ns clock cycle and the low power versions 120ns. These were 48 pins chips and didn't have an internal register bank like the 2901. The idea was that you implemented a memory to memory architecture like the TMS9900. The TI SBP0400A and SBP0401A were I2L 4 bit slices. The 400 had an internal pipeline register while the 401 was designed for external pipelining. ALU operations took 240ns at 200mW. It had an 8 register bank besides the working register. All I know about these is what I read in "The Bipolar Micromputer Components Data Book", December 1977 edition. I have no idea if these chips were actually shipped or if they were used in any product. -- Jecel ----- Also the later Texas Instruments SN74AS888 (8-bit ALU slice w/ 16x8 register file and multiply/divide/normalize) & SN74AS890 (sequencer). Did these ever get any commercial traction? paul From spc at conman.org Sat Apr 23 01:42:14 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 02:42:14 -0400 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: <20160423032944.GA32694@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20160423064214.GB32694@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Eric Smith once stated: > On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 9:29 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > One major problem with adding a faster CPU to an SGI is the MIPS chip > > itself---code compiled for one MIPS CPU (say, the R3000) won't run on > > another MIPS CPU (say, the R4400) due to the differences in the pipeline. > > MIPS compilers were specific for a chip because such details were not hidden > > in the CPU itself, but left to the compiler to deal with. > > Having written a bunch of R3000 and R4000/4200/4300/4400/4600 assembly > code in the 1990s, my (possibly faulty) recollection disagrees with > you. There are differences in supervisor-mode programming, but I don't > recall any issues with running 32-bit user-mode R3000 code on any > R4xxx. The programmer-visible pipelline behavior (e.g., branch delay > slots) were the same. Hmm ... I might have been misremembering. I just checked the book I have on the MIPS, and yes, the supervisor stuff is different between the R2000, R3000, R4000 and R6000. Also, the R2000, R3000 and R6000 have a five stage pipeline, and the R4000 has an eight stage pipeline. > That's only considering the CPU itself, which I used as an embedded > processor; I never used IRIX so I don't know whether IRIX on R4xxx > might have somehow prevented use of IRIX R3xxx binaries (e.g., by > different system call conventions or the like). That I do not know. There were very few SGIs on campus at the time. -spc From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 23 01:56:04 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 23:56:04 -0700 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <037601d19d29$ed778cb0$c866a610$@gmail.com> References: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> <037601d19d29$ed778cb0$c866a610$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jecel > Assumpcao Jr. > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 10:54 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) > > Eric Smith mentioned: >> [2901 A, B, and C, CMOS versions] >> [2903 and 29203] >> [Intel 3001 and 3002] >> [MMI 5701/6701] >> [Motorola MC10800] > > I'd add the Texas Instruments SN74S481, SN54LS481 and SN74LS481 TTL 4 bit > slices. The Schottky version had a 90ns clock cycle and the low power > versions 120ns. These were 48 pins chips and didn't have an internal > register bank like the 2901. The idea was that you implemented a memory to > memory architecture like the TMS9900. > ... I'd say the 74181 (1970) deserves a mention here. Simpler (no register component, ALU only) but it pretty much kicked off the start of IC-level bit slicing. Adding to Eric's mention of the PDP-6, the HP2116 (1966) did board-level bit-slicing (CPU registers, ALU, datapaths on 4 identical boards of 4 bits each). From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Fri Apr 22 04:15:16 2016 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:45:16 +0930 Subject: Z80 /WAIT signal question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5719EBA4.10104@kaput.homeunix.org> On 22/04/2016 3:06 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > A friend building a Z80 system asked me about whether the Z80 /WAIT > signal has any effect during machine cycles that aren't > memory/IO/intack cycles (i.e., neither /MREQ and /IORQ asserted). The > user manual only describes the use of /WAIT for adding wait states, > so I expect it probably only affects mem/IO/intack cycles, but I > can't find anything definitive in the user manual. > > I'm hoping someone can save me the time of hooking up a logic > analyzer and running the experiment. > > Thanks! Eric > http://kaput.homeunix.org/~thrashbarg/z80.pdf Looking at this Z80 datasheet (page 20 of the PDF) the timing diagrams say the /WAIT signal is sampled on the falling edge of clock state T2. If it is active, additional cycles are introdced between T2 and T3. This only occurs on op-code fetch, memory reference, input-output and interrupt acknowledge cycles. Alexis. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 07:18:33 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 08:18:33 -0400 Subject: Ibm s-100 system? In-Reply-To: <769FFC4B-57BC-48E8-8D31-2D7351EC8E28@shiresoft.com> References: <769FFC4B-57BC-48E8-8D31-2D7351EC8E28@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Nothing I ever heard of and I was in IBM Boca at the time and would have > heard > *something* about it. > > TTFN - Guy > > Are you sure, the IBM S-100 system was demoed only in Europe, I assume developed there too. I know of the S-100 cards with IBM mincomputer memory that also eventually appeared in early RAM cards for the 5150. Here is an example: http://vintagecomputer.net/ibm/5155/ibm_256KB_memory_card_6407740.jpg -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Apr 22 11:02:58 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 09:02:58 -0700 Subject: Ibm s-100 system? In-Reply-To: References: <769FFC4B-57BC-48E8-8D31-2D7351EC8E28@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <01444CFD-3A1D-4F29-A30F-AA2E7938F934@shiresoft.com> > On Apr 22, 2016, at 5:18 AM, william degnan wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> Nothing I ever heard of and I was in IBM Boca at the time and would have >> heard >> *something* about it. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> > > Are you sure, the IBM S-100 system was demoed only in Europe, I assume > developed there too. I know of the S-100 cards with IBM mincomputer memory > that also eventually appeared in early RAM cards for the 5150. Here is an > example: > > http://vintagecomputer.net/ibm/5155/ibm_256KB_memory_card_6407740.jpg > Actually, that memory is what went into the mainframes at the time. IBM at the time was one of the largest (if not the largest) producer of semiconductor memory. It only went out and bought vendor memory when its fabs couldn?t meet all of the internal demand. The original PC used vendor DRAM because the point of the PC was to use readily available (outside of IBM) components. I wrote a somewhat long post a while ago on why we?re still stuck with various timing artifacts due to the original PC?s choice to use an NTSC color burst crystal as the main crystal for the PC. TTFN - Guy From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 13:26:09 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 12:26:09 -0600 Subject: Z80 /WAIT signal question In-Reply-To: <5719EBA4.10104@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <5719EBA4.10104@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 3:15 AM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote: > http://kaput.homeunix.org/~thrashbarg/z80.pdf > > Looking at this Z80 datasheet (page 20 of the PDF) the timing diagrams > say the /WAIT signal is sampled on the falling edge of clock state T2. > If it is active, additional cycles are introdced between T2 and T3. This > only occurs on op-code fetch, memory reference, input-output and > interrupt acknowledge cycles. Thanks, but I'm not convinced by that particular part of the datasheet. I see where it says: 1) "The Z80 CPU executes instruction by proceeding through a specific sequence of operations: *Memory read or write *I/O device read or write *Interrupt acknowledge" 2) "Machine cycles can be extended [...] by the insertion of one or more Wait states by the user." The first of those statements omits that there can be M cycles which are of none of those stated cycle types, and are used purely for internal operation. For example, an ADD HL, BC instruction has three M cycles, but only the first is a fetch, and the other are internal operations. The second and third M cycles have seven T-states between them; probably one of those M cycles has three T-states and the other has four[*]. I don't see where it says that ONLY the op-code fetch, memory reference, input-output, and interrupt cycles can be extended, and I don't see anything in the datasheet or user manual that definitively states that the second and third M cycle of that 16-bit ADD instruction can't be extended with wait states by /WAIT being asserted at the faling edge of T2 of those M cycles. On the other hand, if someone with personal experience has verified that internal-only M cycles can't be extended by asserting /WAIT, that's would answer my question. I'm starting to think that I'll actually have to kludge up a test circuit to find out. Best regards, Eric [*] I thought at one point I saw Zilog or Mostek Z80 documentation that gave the specific details of every M cycle of every instruction, but I can find such a thing at the moment. :-( From amh at pobox.com Fri Apr 22 19:51:01 2016 From: amh at pobox.com (Andrew M Hoerter) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 20:51:01 -0400 Subject: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <571AC6F5.2080302@pobox.com> On 4/19/16 14:58, Swift Griggs wrote: > one of your software vendors. Ugh. Of course, watching SGI under Rick > Belluzo (I hated that guy) wasn't much easier. "Ohhh, I'm ex-Microsoft so > let's make Windows NT workstations." Ugh, Puh!, Bleh.... grrreeeeaaat idea, > guys. I wish the board could be retroactively fired for that. It so happened that I had a front-row seat for that debacle (ok, maybe fourth-row), having attended one of the SGI road show events at which the Visual Workstation line was introduced, by none other than Rick B. himself. I worked with several people who were doing 3D modeling at the time. None of us could figure out why SGI would dive into the low end of the market when it seemed as though 3D hardware was about to become commoditized in a big way. Maybe they were gambling on becoming Nvidia or 3DFX, and lost. That wasn't the only SGI-Microsoft collaboration which went bad though; Around that time, I also went to a technical presentation about the Fahrenheit graphics API which was going to replace OpenGL. It was stillborn and went nowhere. Although I think I've read that bits and pieces of Fahrenheit went into Vulkan, much later on. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 02:59:43 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 01:59:43 -0600 Subject: Z80 /WAIT signal question In-Reply-To: References: <5719EBA4.10104@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 12:26 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I thought at one point I saw Zilog or Mostek Z80 documentation > that gave the specific details of every M cycle of every instruction, > but I can find such a thing at the moment. :-( Found it. Section 12.0 of the Mostek MK3880 Central Processing Unit Technical Manual, as found in the Mostek Microcomputer Z80 Data Book, publication number 79602, August 1978. Also in the Mostek 1982/83 Z80 Designer's Guide, June 1982. I'm still looking for the Z80 DMA Technical Manual. **NOT** the data sheet, I've got multiple copies of that. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Apr 23 05:54:28 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 11:54:28 +0100 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: <20160423032944.GA32694@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <571B5464.8080107@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/04/2016 06:16, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 9:29 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >> One major problem with adding a faster CPU to an SGI is the MIPS chip >> itself---code compiled for one MIPS CPU (say, the R3000) won't run on >> another MIPS CPU (say, the R4400) due to the differences in the pipeline. >> MIPS compilers were specific for a chip because such details were not hidden >> in the CPU itself, but left to the compiler to deal with. > > Having written a bunch of R3000 and R4000/4200/4300/4400/4600 assembly > code in the 1990s, my (possibly faulty) recollection disagrees with > you. There are differences in supervisor-mode programming, but I don't > recall any issues with running 32-bit user-mode R3000 code on any > R4xxx. The programmer-visible pipelline behavior (e.g., branch delay > slots) were the same. > > That's only considering the CPU itself, which I used as an embedded > processor; I never used IRIX so I don't know whether IRIX on R4xxx > might have somehow prevented use of IRIX R3xxx binaries (e.g., by > different system call conventions or the like). Nope, you're right. I've got R3000 and R4000 Indigos, R4000, R4400 , R4600 and R5000 Indys, R5K O2s and an R10K Origin 2000 running Irix 5.3 and 6.5, and the code written for the R3000 Indigos works fine on all the others - with one exception (COFF vs ELF). The same isn't necessarily true the other way around, of course, as the later processors and later IRIX versions had things that didn't translate back. For example, cc under IRIX 5.3, even with an R5000SC CPU, compiles 32-bit "-mips1" by default and the resulting code will run on any of the above and also on R2000 machines. However, in later versions of IRIX the default became "-mips2" or higher, and of course on some machines/IRIX versions the default became "-n32" or "-64" and in some cases "-mips3" or "-mips4". Nevertheless there was still a "-o32" option and I've often compiled software on my O2K running 6.5.22 using "-o32 -mips1" and run the resulting binary on an R3K Indigo as well as the Origin (only somewhat slower :-)). About half of my /usr/local/bin is compiled that way. Another change was that IRIX 5.3 was the last version to support COFF binaries, and the compiler itself would only produce ELF; later versions of IRIX couldn't load COFF and would only run ELF binaries (with the possible exception 6.0.1, but I don't remember). Under 5.3, you had to use as(1) directly to generate COFF output. -- Pete From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Apr 23 07:41:30 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 08:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) Message-ID: <20160423124130.529EF18C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > I'd say the 74181 (1970) deserves a mention here. Simpler (no register > component, ALU only) but it pretty much kicked off the start of > IC-level bit slicing. Yes, it was used in quite a few machines. Among the PDP-11's alone, it is found in the -11/45, /05, /40, /04 and /34, to name a few that I checked quickly, and almost certainly others too (e.g. /70). Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 23 09:26:22 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 15:26:22 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> > Information on using that is however scarce and scattered, you can find > some here to start: and then the > pinout for the serial diagnostic port is included here: > 199909/cd1/alpha/pcdsatia.pdf> > (the boot sequence is also described here, so you'll know that an NVRAM > failure is reported by DROM code, i.e. before the final SRM or ARC console > takes over and is able to use the regular serial port). Indeed, I don't get any output on the standard serial port. > > That's a bit cryptic, but knowing that this is a low-level CPU interface you can > gather the wiring from this document: > alphaserver/technology/literature/164lxtrm.pdf>. > So BSROMCLK is Tx and SROMCDAT is Rx, but as noted here and in the > discussion in the first reference you need an EIA/TIA 232 driver and receiver > (there is power available on the diagnostic port, so you can use it for the > circuit), and of course you need to cross the lines wiring them to your host. > I don't think the SROM diagnostics are going to help much because the failure is in the DROM sequence, which comes after the SROM. > Finally the SROM console command reference is here: > alphaserver/technology/literature/srommini.pdf>. > This manual doesn't specifically cover the Avanti, but I'd expect the user > interface to be similar -- it's a low-level tool close to the CPU after all. > > NB on Avanti the 8kB NVRAM is separate from the TOY/NVR chip (which is a > Benchmarq BQ4285, providing 114B of general storage only). > I had already located the Benchmarq chip and found the spec to be insufficient for the 8K NVRAM. The problem is, I don't know which chip has the NVRAM, I have not been able to locate it and the manuals don't tell me. I hope it isn't one of the ASICs. I have posted a photo of the board here: http://bit.ly/1qHQnaB in case anyone can id the NVRAM. If the NVRAM contents are maintained by the battery then there should be a way to reset the NVRAM contents, but there does not seem to be a way. I wonder if the NVRAM persists without power? The manual seems to say that the TOY is battery backed, but makes no mention of the NVRAM needing the battery. Regards Rob From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 09:45:40 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 09:45:40 -0500 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <571B8A94.5040301@gmail.com> On 04/22/2016 01:03 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > Remember all the accelerator boards for the Mac, Amiga, and even PCs in the > 90's ? I've often wished that I could get something similar on my older SGI > systems. Well, I seem to remember that some of the desktop SGI machines could take a variety of CPUs. Often though they were designed for a certain performance point and if you wanted more you bought the next model up - and when I worked with them commercially, a lot of hardware was technically under lease; they'd bring out a new model and throw it our way, then take the old one away (where I was told it got sent to the crusher). On the server side of things, they were generally pretty expandable - if you wanted higher performance, you just added more CPUs / disks / backplanes, rather than fitting faster versions of individual components. > So, here's the question. Is my dream likely to ever be possible enough that > a boutique shop could pull it off and not lose their shirt on the production > costs and R&D to do it ? I think you'd be wasting your time, even if it could be done... for a lot of tasks the CPU isn't the limiting factor anyway - disk speed, bus bandwidth etc. all play a part, too. Then there's the "what's the point?" angle... I mean, why take a vintage machine that's dog-slow in comparison to modern hardware and try to make it slightly less dog-slow? cheers Jules From macro at linux-mips.org Sat Apr 23 09:49:07 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 15:49:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <20160423064214.GB32694@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160423032944.GA32694@brevard.conman.org> <20160423064214.GB32694@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > > > One major problem with adding a faster CPU to an SGI is the MIPS chip > > > itself---code compiled for one MIPS CPU (say, the R3000) won't run on > > > another MIPS CPU (say, the R4400) due to the differences in the pipeline. > > > MIPS compilers were specific for a chip because such details were not hidden > > > in the CPU itself, but left to the compiler to deal with. > > > > Having written a bunch of R3000 and R4000/4200/4300/4400/4600 assembly > > code in the 1990s, my (possibly faulty) recollection disagrees with > > you. There are differences in supervisor-mode programming, but I don't > > recall any issues with running 32-bit user-mode R3000 code on any > > R4xxx. The programmer-visible pipelline behavior (e.g., branch delay > > slots) were the same. > > Hmm ... I might have been misremembering. I just checked the book I have > on the MIPS, and yes, the supervisor stuff is different between the R2000, > R3000, R4000 and R6000. Also, the R2000, R3000 and R6000 have a five stage > pipeline, and the R4000 has an eight stage pipeline. Pipeline restrictions were gradually relaxed by adding more and more interlocks as the architecture evolved. So while user mode code compiled for a higher ISA might not necessarily work with an older one even if it only used instructions defined in the older ISA, there was no issue the other way round, old code was forward compatible with newer hardware (or, depending on how you look at it new hardware was backward compatible with older code). The timeline was roughly: - MIPS II -- removed load delay slots -- for memory read instructions targetting both general purpose and coprocessor registers, - MIPS IV -- removed coprocessor transfer and condition code delay slots -- for instructions used to move data between general purpose and coprocessor registers as well as ones setting or reading coprocessor condition codes. The original MIPS I ISA only had an interlock on multiply-divide unit (MDU) accumulator accesses, so all the other pipeline hazards had to be handled in software, by inserting the right number of instructions between the producer and the consumer of data; NOPs were used where no useful instructions could be scheduled. Some operations continued to require a manual resolution of pipeline hazards even in the MIPS IV ISA, like moves to the MDU accumulator, as well as many privileged operations (TLB writes, mode switches, etc.). For these the SSNOP (superscalar NOP) instruction was introduced, which was guaranteed not to be nullified with superscalar pipelines. The encoding was chosen such that it was backwards compatible, using one of the already existing ways to express an operation with no visible effects other than incrementing the PC, which given the design of the MIPS instruction set there has been always a plethora of. Consequently SSNOP was executed as an ordinary NOP by older ISA implementations. NB despite the hardware interlocks it has always been preferable to avoid pipeline stalls triggered by them by scheduling the right minimum number of instructions between data producers and the respective consumers anyway and compilers have had options to adapt here to specific processor implementations. The addition of hardware interlocks made the life of compiler (and handcoded assembly) writers a little bit easier as a missed optimisation didn't result in broken code. Also more compact code could be produced where there was no way to schedule useful code to satisfy pipeline hazards and NOP would have to be inserted otherwise. I won't dive into the details of the further evolution with modern MIPS ISAs here, for obvious reasons. Maciej From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 09:57:44 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 09:57:44 -0500 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <571B8D68.1040800@gmail.com> On 04/22/2016 01:51 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > I like the new types of peripherals but it makes me a little uncomfortable > knowing that e.g. in the case of the uIEC-SD for Commodores, the clock > speed of the peripheral is 16 to 20 times that of the original host CPU. Honestly, I can't see the point in modern upgrades except perhaps for temporary use in order to get data to/from original equipment. At the point where people start adding emulated storage, USB interfaces, VGA display hardware etc. it stops being a vintage system and starts being a modern version which just happens to still have a few vintage parts. May as well say screw it and just use an emulator for the whole thing... Now upgrades within the realm of what would have been possible during a system's lifetime I can get on board with - using period components to implement things such as Ethernet interfaces, accelerators, extra memory etc... J. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 23 10:25:55 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 15:25:55 +0000 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <571B8D68.1040800@gmail.com> References: , <571B8D68.1040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Honestly, I can't see the point in modern upgrades except perhaps for > temporary use in order to get data to/from original equipment. At the point > where people start adding emulated storage, USB interfaces, VGA display > hardware etc. it stops being a vintage system and starts being a modern > version which just happens to still have a few vintage parts. May as well > say screw it and just use an emulator for the whole thing... > > Now upgrades within the realm of what would have been possible during a > system's lifetime I can get on board with - using period components to > implement things such as Ethernet interfaces, accelerators, extra memory etc... I'm with you on this, generally... A concrete example. As many of you know I have a VAX 11/730 that I am restoring (It's currently on hold as I may have a lead on a scrap RA80 that I can get the brackets, etc, I need to repair the R80 from (as well as a spare HDA) so until I know one way or the other I am not going to do metalbashing...). I do NOT want to use any of the common TU58 emulators. It seems ridiculous to use something like an Rpi to boot an 11/730 CPU. If I can't get the real tape-based TU58 running then any emulator I make for it will use a CPU contemporary with the rest of the machine (probably an 8085 as used in the real TU58). Similarly I want to keep FPGAs and the like (hacker-unfriendly, closed, devices) away from my classics. I want proper documentation -- that's one reason I run the classics in the first place. Not a closed-source compiler that does $diety-knows-what to my design. I will not stick an FPGA-based board in my Unibus, there were no such things with the Unibus was 'current' . However, how far do you go (I am asking, I am not sure of the answer). Is it 'OK' to use a modern machine running a terminal emulator in place of a real contemporary-to-the-machine terminal (FWIW, I do try to have at least the console as a 'real' terminal in the end but might well use a terminal emulator when getting it all working). What about mass storage units that just connect to a peripheral interface (I am thinking of things like the HPIB-interfaced drives on HP9000/200 machnes). Should you not use modern machines and compilers to cross-develop software for classic computers? Should you only use test gear that was contemporary with the machine (so no DSO's when working on classics, I should not use my (ancient) logic analysers, even less the LogicDart on my PDP11s)? -tony From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 23 10:33:59 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 10:33:59 -0500 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <571AF5CF.9080209@pico-systems.com> References: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> <571AF5CF.9080209@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <571B95E7.2000000@pico-systems.com> On 04/22/2016 11:10 PM, Jon Elson wrote: Yikes, too many typos, let me try over! > I built a 32-bit micro-engine for a project that was > eventually going to be an IBM 360-like CPU. > I picked the 360, not because it was the greatest design, > but it was VERY well laid-out and would be easy to write > efficient microcode for. I used the 2903 with 2910 > controller. I was able to get it to run at 8 MHz, with > 3-address operations running at 6 MHz. > > But, the project got bogged down, at a certain point, I > realized HOW MUCH more work lay ahead of me to get a > working system. I had to add 2 more features to the > micro-engine - a 256-way branch from the op-code, and some > OR gates to OR in the register address fields. Then, I > had to build a system bus and memory interface. > (I was going to make the I/O architecture much more like a > PDP-11 than the 360 channel architecture.) Then, I had to > design a general-purpose peripheral controller. I had a > VERY rough sketch for about a 20-chip micro-machine using > (probably) 3X byte-wide EPROMS for instructions) that > would hopefully run at 4 MHz. Then, I had to build a SCSI > controller (I already had a SASI disk on my S-100 system), > a serial mux and a tape controller. > Finally, I had to write at least a primitive OS and figure > out how to come up with compilers for it. Had I known > that UNIX-360 existed, I might have tried to make some > kind of port of that. But, obviously, YEARS of work would > have been needed to make it usable. > > See http://pico-systems.com/stories/1982.html for some > pics and description of it. > > Jon From macro at linux-mips.org Sat Apr 23 10:34:18 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 16:34:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > That's a bit cryptic, but knowing that this is a low-level CPU interface > you can > > gather the wiring from this document: > > > alphaserver/technology/literature/164lxtrm.pdf>. > > So BSROMCLK is Tx and SROMCDAT is Rx, but as noted here and in the > > discussion in the first reference you need an EIA/TIA 232 driver and > receiver > > (there is power available on the diagnostic port, so you can use it for > the > > circuit), and of course you need to cross the lines wiring them to your > host. > > > > I don't think the SROM diagnostics are going to help much because the > failure is in the DROM sequence, which comes after the SROM. But from the discussion referred I gather DROM outputs its diagnostics to this port too and you might be able to learn what exactly about NVRAM it complains. Also you might be able to correct configuration, e.g. by poking at NVRAM or elsewhere appropriately; notice that the manual also suggests you might be able to bypass the DROM sequence and go to SRM/ARC directly, which might help recovery too. It's up to you if you want to try this of course, I just thought it might help as the existence of this SROM console might not be universally known. > > Finally the SROM console command reference is here: > > > alphaserver/technology/literature/srommini.pdf>. > > This manual doesn't specifically cover the Avanti, but I'd expect the user > > interface to be similar -- it's a low-level tool close to the CPU after > all. > > > > NB on Avanti the 8kB NVRAM is separate from the TOY/NVR chip (which is a > > Benchmarq BQ4285, providing 114B of general storage only). > > > > I had already located the Benchmarq chip and found the spec to be > insufficient for the 8K NVRAM. The problem is, I don't know which chip has > the NVRAM, I have not been able to locate it and the manuals don't tell me. > I hope it isn't one of the ASICs. I have posted a photo of the board here: > http://bit.ly/1qHQnaB in case anyone can id the NVRAM. It is separately decoded on the flashbus (among flashROM, DROM, diagnostic LEDs and jumpers), so I doubt it's in an ASIC, that would be too arcane. I suspect they wanted to keep it separate from flashROM for safety. > If the NVRAM contents are maintained by the battery then there should be a > way to reset the NVRAM contents, but there does not seem to be a way. I > wonder if the NVRAM persists without power? The manual seems to say that the > TOY is battery backed, but makes no mention of the NVRAM needing the > battery. It is battery backed indeed and it sits right in the upper right hand corner: , next to the other flashbus devices, as expected -- next to the left there is a pair of flashROMs (and a pair of sockets for another two of the four supported total), and a socketed DROM chip. Being decoded as a DRAM bank they are also close to DRAM sockets. Jumpers and LEDs are elsewhere, but obviously they have less strict PCB routing requirements. HTH, Maciej From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Apr 23 10:37:43 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 11:37:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? Message-ID: <20160423153743.79BCC18C125@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jules Richardson > I can't see the point in modern upgrades .. At the point where people > start adding emulated storage, USB interfaces, VGA display hardware > etc. it stops being a vintage system and starts being a modern version > which just happens to still have a few vintage parts. I agree with you to some degree, but... Some components are just hard/impossible to find now - like old original disk drives (seen any RP0x's for sale recently?), or Able ENABLE's - and in any case running the disks is both non-trivial (power/heat) and risks damaging what are effectively museum pieces. So one is left with the choice of modern replacements, or nothing. And I'm not capable of building an RP0x, but building a board that uses an SD memory card to emulate an RP0x, that's within my grasp. And it takes a lot less room and power, to boot. Also, the _systems_ were designed to have upgrades installed, and did, BITD - many of which were not conceived when the machine first came out. E.g. our 11/45 at LCS wound up with 1MB MOS memory boards in it (much smaller and less power-hungry than the original memory), and high-speed LANs, neither of which were ever envisaged when the machine was built. I don't see that building, say, a UNIBUS USB interface now is really that different from building a high-speed LAN board BITD. I do agree that if you replace stuff that _is_ still available and perfectly functional (e.g. QBUS memory and processors), you might just as well run a simulator. But there's a lot of stuff that's not in that category (above). Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 23 10:38:20 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 10:38:20 -0500 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <20160423124130.529EF18C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160423124130.529EF18C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <571B96EC.2080107@pico-systems.com> On 04/23/2016 07:41 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Brent Hilpert > > > I'd say the 74181 (1970) deserves a mention here. Simpler (no register > > component, ALU only) but it pretty much kicked off the start of > > IC-level bit slicing. > > Yes, it was used in quite a few machines. Among the PDP-11's alone, it is > found in the -11/45, /05, /40, /04 and /34, to name a few that I checked > quickly, and almost certainly others too (e.g. /70). > The 11/45 and 11/70 are mostly the same processor. Definitely, the data paths boards and FPU are the same part numbers. Jon From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat Apr 23 10:56:08 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 08:56:08 -0700 Subject: VCF East pictures In-Reply-To: <0aeb01d19cd0$e807a200$b816e600$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <571A7AD7.1070809@snarc.net> <008b01d19ccd$528f8060$f7ae8120$@net> <0aeb01d19cd0$e807a200$b816e600$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00ed01d19d78$a6fdeaf0$f4f9c0d0$@net> > Simplest just to read the article (it's not very long): > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Feb1975/PE_Feb1975.htm > Thanks Bill. That is pretty cool! -Ali From drb at msu.edu Sat Apr 23 11:04:18 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 12:04:18 -0400 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:32:34 -0700.) References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20160423160419.00D13A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > What do you think of the Klom imitation of it? Initial impressions of the Klom K-747 tubular key cutter The Klom K-747 cutter is designed to cut Chicago ACE type tubular keys, and the Fort equivalents. It is available in at least four key barrel sizes, 7.0mm, 7.3mm, 7.5mm and 7.8mm. The "common" size seems to be 7.8mm, which is the inside dimension of the key barrel. (In US measurements of such tools given in inches, it seems more common to specify the O.D.) The 7.8mm size is the appropriate one for cutting e.g. DEC XX2247 keys. Comparing the Klom to the drawings and photos of the HPC device in the HPC manual, the Klom has some differences: more labeling than the HPC, less projection of the cutter shaft out the back, and more contact between the cutter knob and the depth knob at the bottom of a cut, a rotating key shaft. In the absence of a Klom manual, the HPC manual is useful in interacting with the Klom version in spite of the differences between the devices. The design concept is straightforward and should be fairly easy to use. The unit comes with a T-style key gauge, but no manual or 2.5mm hex key for making adjustments. The Klom unit provides spring and bearing detents to help hold the key to the proper pin position and the depth knob at the selected setting. With a key inserted for cutting, the device is about 5 inches long, and just under 2 inches in diameter. Overall, construction seems sturdy. The finish is black paint which seems to scratch fairly easily. The Klom design does not allow cutting of left or right offset keys. Both the rotational position knob and the cutter depth arrived in need of adjustment. Both operations are obvious. The rotational adjustment is trivial, since the shaft on which the key mounts for cutting has detents. All one must do is turn the key to the first position, then loosen the set screw in the knob to align the "1" on the knob with the true line. The depth calibration is not as easy, since one must adjust the distance the cutter shaft is slid into the device by loosening the set screw in the knob, pushing it in a whisker, and tightening the set screw. Since the designated difference between cut depths is 0.016", this is fiddly. Chicago ACE numbers pins clockwise from the 1 o'clock position (looking into the lock). Fort numbers pins counterclockwise from the 11 o'clock position. There is also a difference in pin depth numbering between the two manufacturers. The Klom unit matches the Chicago scheme. The HPC manual describes these numbering schemes, and the information there applies to the Klom as well. You will need to understand these differences, as well as which variant was used to specify the bitting you will use, to cut a usable key. Both brands have some numbering painted on their knobs. It seems that it would quite easy to paint full rotation and depth numbering for both Chicago and Fort schemes on them, which would make using the devices easier for novices, but neither does this. There is a little bit of play in several places that could affect accuracy: the depth knob rotates a large screw whose threads could be tighter; the end cap that holds the key on the shaft can wobble enough to shift the key side to side a wee bit. The cutter shaft also has more play than is probably necessary, but that won't affect depth. Since this is a low-cost Chinese device one would expect a few issues, and this device does present a few: * Both sets of detents were a bit grouchy at first, as if there was a bit of manufacturing debris inside, but seemed to settle down some after a few minutes use. * I managed to accidentally rotate the depth adjustment a couple of times while making a cut. The knob that turns the cutter meets the depth adjustment knob at the bottom of the cut, and depending on how hard you're pressing, friction between the two may be enough to cause the problem. Murphy is (as always) on hand to ensure that when the knob moves, it goes toward a deeper setting, spoiling the key. This is a design issue that will have to be worked around by paying careful attention during use. It would be nice if the depth could be locked. There are set screws to adjust the spring tension on the detents, and I tightened them a little. This helped some, but not enough. * In my first attempts, I had some small variations in depth of cut between different pins that were supposed to have the same value. The above notes on play probably explain this. Practice will help. I haven't tested enough yet to opine on the impact in terms of marginal or bad keys. * It would be nice if the key gauge was labeled on both sides, since when holding it in one hand and the key in the other, one uses it face up for odd cut sizes and face down for evens. (You could also turn the key around, but it's easier to keep track of where you are if you flip the gauge.) I find the T-style gauge easier to use for fine evaluation of depth, and the Southord style (key-shaped) gauge faster for reading bittings from unknown keys. I was unable to find the Klom cutter for sale in the US, and had to order from China. I ended up using dhgate.com. Delivery time was nearly a month. Listings also appear on aliexpress. De From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 23 11:19:58 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 17:19:58 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <017e01d19d7b$fb1ec110$f15c4330$@ntlworld.com> > > > > I don't think the SROM diagnostics are going to help much because the > > failure is in the DROM sequence, which comes after the SROM. > > But from the discussion referred I gather DROM outputs its diagnostics to > this port too and you might be able to learn what exactly about NVRAM it > complains. Ah OK, so you think the DROM console also outputs to the SROM diagnostics? I'd need to build some kind of adapter to do that. I'll have to research this. Is there a standard part? Also you might be able to correct configuration, e.g. by poking at > NVRAM or elsewhere appropriately; Not really sure how to poke the NVRAM without the console, or is that what you are suggesting? > notice that the manual also suggests > you might be able to bypass the DROM sequence and go to SRM/ARC > directly, which might help recovery too. I have definitely missed that bit. Which manual says this? > > It's up to you if you want to try this of course, I just thought it might help as > the existence of this SROM console might not be universally known. > > > > Finally the SROM console command reference is here: > > > > > alphaserver/technology/literature/srommini.pdf>. > > > This manual doesn't specifically cover the Avanti, but I'd expect > > > the user interface to be similar -- it's a low-level tool close to > > > the CPU after > > all. > > > > > > NB on Avanti the 8kB NVRAM is separate from the TOY/NVR chip (which > > > is a Benchmarq BQ4285, providing 114B of general storage only). > > > > > > > I had already located the Benchmarq chip and found the spec to be > > insufficient for the 8K NVRAM. The problem is, I don't know which chip > > has the NVRAM, I have not been able to locate it and the manuals don't tell > me. > > I hope it isn't one of the ASICs. I have posted a photo of the board here: > > http://bit.ly/1qHQnaB in case anyone can id the NVRAM. > > It is separately decoded on the flashbus (among flashROM, DROM, > diagnostic LEDs and jumpers), so I doubt it's in an ASIC, that would be too > arcane. I suspect they wanted to keep it separate from flashROM for safety. > > > If the NVRAM contents are maintained by the battery then there should > > be a way to reset the NVRAM contents, but there does not seem to be a > > way. I wonder if the NVRAM persists without power? The manual seems to > > say that the TOY is battery backed, but makes no mention of the NVRAM > > needing the battery. > > It is battery backed indeed and it sits right in the upper right hand > corner: , > next to the other flashbus devices, as expected -- next to the left there is a > pair of flashROMs (and a pair of sockets for another two of the four > supported total), and a socketed DROM chip. Being decoded as a DRAM > bank they are also close to DRAM sockets. Jumpers and LEDs are elsewhere, > but obviously they have less strict PCB routing requirements. > > HTH, Yes it does help! Thanks for that. At least I now know where the NVRAM actually is. I have found some parts on Ebay, but I have no idea how to deal with surface mount though, another research area... Regards Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Apr 23 11:29:44 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 12:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) Message-ID: <20160423162944.2D31418C125@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson > The 11/45 and 11/70 are mostly the same processor. ... > the data paths boards and FPU are the same part numbers 'Yes' to the FPP (well, there are two versions, the FP11-B and FP11-C, but they are both identical in the two machines). 'No' to the data paths, though: e.g. the M8100 in the /45 (the board with the 74S181's on it) is replaced by the M8130 in the /70. The two are _very_ similar, but I suspect not interchangeable (examing the prints shows minor differences). AFAIK, the only non-FPP board in the CPU which is interchangeable between the two machines is the M8132 (instruction register decode & condition codes) - and only to the KB11-D /45 variant, not the -A. {As always, just want to be accurate! :-} Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 23 11:33:57 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 17:33:57 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> > But from the discussion referred I gather DROM outputs its diagnostics to > this port too and you might be able to learn what exactly about NVRAM it > complains. Also you might be able to correct configuration, e.g. by poking at > NVRAM or elsewhere appropriately; notice that the manual also suggests > you might be able to bypass the DROM sequence and go to SRM/ARC > directly, which might help recovery too. > Having checked the manual I think you may be referring to the following text: " When the SROM code has completed its tasks, it normally loads the DROM code and turns control over to it. The SROM checks to see if the DROM contains the proper header and that the checksum is correct. If either check fails, the SROM code reads a location in the TOY NVRAM. The location indicates which console firmware (the SRM or the ARC) should be loaded. When the console firmware is loaded, the header check and the checksum are checked. If either is in error, the SROM code jumps to its mini-console routine. With the appropriate adapter, you can attach a terminal to the CPU's serial port and use the mini-console. Typically, this port is used in the manufacturing environment." To get this sequence to work needs two things though. First I have to create a DROM error. The DROM seems to be fine. Perhaps I could remove the DROM chip as it is socketed to provoke the error. However, then it says it checks the TOY NVRAM for which firmware to load. The battery was flat, so the TOY NVRAM won't have this info. Hopefully it will default to one of them. Still, if I had the mini-console adapter, that would probably really help. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 23 12:01:11 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 18:01:11 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 23 April 2016 17:34 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > > But from the discussion referred I gather DROM outputs its > > diagnostics to this port too and you might be able to learn what > > exactly about NVRAM it complains. Also you might be able to correct > > configuration, e.g. by > poking at > > NVRAM or elsewhere appropriately; notice that the manual also suggests > > you might be able to bypass the DROM sequence and go to SRM/ARC > > directly, which might help recovery too. > > > > Having checked the manual I think you may be referring to the following > text: > > " When the SROM code has completed its tasks, it normally loads the DROM > code and turns control over to it. The SROM checks to see if the DROM > contains the proper header and that the checksum is correct. If either check > fails, the SROM code reads a location in the TOY NVRAM. The location > indicates which console firmware (the SRM or the > ARC) > should be loaded. > When the console firmware is loaded, the header check and the checksum > are checked. If either is in error, the SROM code jumps to its mini-console > routine. With the appropriate adapter, you can attach a terminal to the CPU's > serial port and use the mini-console. > Typically, this port is used in the manufacturing environment." > > To get this sequence to work needs two things though. First I have to create > a DROM error. The DROM seems to be fine. Perhaps I could remove the > DROM chip as it is socketed to provoke the error. > > However, then it says it checks the TOY NVRAM for which firmware to load. > The battery was flat, so the TOY NVRAM won't have this info. Hopefully it will > default to one of them. > > Still, if I had the mini-console adapter, that would probably really help. > > Regards > > Rob Well! I took out the DROM and switched it on again. The machine bleeped at me, but then it gave me a console and I was able to boot VMS! I will have to see if the NVRAM is now populated and whether it will continue to work with the DROM installed. Thanks! Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 23 12:06:05 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 10:06:05 -0700 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <20160423124130.529EF18C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160423124130.529EF18C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <571BAB7D.10806@sydex.com> On 04/23/2016 05:41 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Brent Hilpert > >> I'd say the 74181 (1970) deserves a mention here. Simpler (no >> register component, ALU only) but it pretty much kicked off the >> start of IC-level bit slicing. I recall reading about the 74181 introduction back in the day--it created great excitement and speculation about how far the industry was from a computer-on-a-chip. I think I still have a couple of the things in my hellbox. In the day, I'm not certain that TTL had the edge on integration, however. It always seemed that DTL and RTL had the edge in complexity. Before the 181, I was playing around with the RTL 796 dual full adder and an 8-bit Fairchild DTL memory--IIRC the latter used a 7V clock. The interesting thing was that there seemed to be a distrust of LSI chips early on. I recall working on a project around 1973, where the lead engineer preferred to design his own UART from SSI rather than use one of the new UART chips. --Chuck From macro at linux-mips.org Sat Apr 23 12:26:13 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 18:26:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <017e01d19d7b$fb1ec110$f15c4330$@ntlworld.com> References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017e01d19d7b$fb1ec110$f15c4330$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > But from the discussion referred I gather DROM outputs its diagnostics to > > this port too and you might be able to learn what exactly about NVRAM it > > complains. > > > Ah OK, so you think the DROM console also outputs to the SROM diagnostics? Yes, it does -- see the dumps reported in the discussion I referred. The diagnostic port is just a primitive (bit-banged) serial port driven directly by the CPU. Any software can poke/peek at it via three CPU pins (mapped to the SL_XMIT and SL_RCV internal processor registers) -- which is why it is available early on. There is PALcode support for that port actually, saving the user of this interface from the need to calculate timings and to handle individual bits presumably. The real serial port used for regular operation is wired far away from the CPU, behind PCI and the ISA bridge (southbridge), off a Super-I/O chip. You need to have all the hardware almost fully initialised to be able to talk to that port, so it's of no use before SRM/ARC has taken over. Also lots of logic has to function correctly for that port to be accessible, so it's not as usable in diagnostics. > I'd need to build some kind of adapter to do that. I'll have to research > this. Is there a standard part? DEC had it internally, obviously, but I don't think you can come across one. I think wiring an EIA/TIA 232 driver/receiver chip, maybe with the aid of a small prototyping board, shouldn't be much hassle though -- there's surely schematics for that already available somewhere online. > Also you might be able to correct configuration, e.g. by poking at > > NVRAM or elsewhere appropriately; > > > Not really sure how to poke the NVRAM without the console, or is that what > you are suggesting? As I say you can use the SROM mini-console for that, flip J1 to enable it. The interface is obviously crude (mind that you're running code out of I$, not much space there to fit fancy stuff) and you need to know the internals of the machine, to get at the right addresses. But the manual: I already referred seems to cover all you need. > > notice that the manual also suggests > > you might be able to bypass the DROM sequence and go to SRM/ARC > > directly, which might help recovery too. > > > I have definitely missed that bit. Which manual says this? Same manual as above: "When the SROM code has completed its tasks, it normally loads the DROM code and turns control over to it. The SROM checks to see if the DROM contains the proper header and that the checksum is correct. If either check fails, the SROM code reads a location in the TOY NVRAM. The location indicates which console firmware (the SRM or the ARC) should be loaded. "When the console firmware is loaded, the header check and the checksum are checked. If either is in error, the SROM code jumps to its mini-console routine. With the appropriate adapter, you can attach a terminal to the CPU's serial port and use the mini-console. Typically, this port is used in the manufacturing environment." -- so it looks to me you could temporarily pull DROM from its socket to bypass this step. You won't have the ability to load the console from a floppy then of course as this is handled by DROM code, and you may need to set the TOY NVRAM location for SRM vs ARC correctly (though IIRC the Avanti series have enough flash space to keep both consoles at once; many years ago I had access to a Melmac machine, which is very similar to yours, up to the same form factor). > > It is battery backed indeed and it sits right in the upper right hand > > corner: , > > next to the other flashbus devices, as expected -- next to the left there > is a > > pair of flashROMs (and a pair of sockets for another two of the four > > supported total), and a socketed DROM chip. Being decoded as a DRAM > > bank they are also close to DRAM sockets. Jumpers and LEDs are elsewhere, > > but obviously they have less strict PCB routing requirements. > > > > HTH, > > Yes it does help! Thanks for that. At least I now know where the NVRAM > actually is. I have found some parts on Ebay, but I have no idea how to deal > with surface mount though, another research area... Somehow I doubt an SRAM chip has failed TBH, so replacing it might not help, there could be something else causing the problem. It would be good to know what exactly has failed, and with DROM output on the diagnostic serial port and/or the SROM mini-console you might actually be able to figure out what's going on here (e.g. fill NVRAM with some bit patterns, see if they come back right, and if they stick across a power cycle). Ah, and may I suggest wiping the dust in this area; I dare not think it might be causing a short or something. Maciej From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Apr 23 12:28:21 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 17:28:21 +0000 Subject: COSMAC Elf switch panel using PCBs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I looked at the schematic pdf and it looks right. The ground lead is the NC. Can you tell us what page reference you think is wrong or confusing? Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 5:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: COSMAC Elf switch panel using PCBs I built a new Elf switch panel, but this time I used two printed circuit boards for the switches and the bezel. The bezel PCB has white soldermask with black silkscreen. The next revision will have black soldermask with white silkscreen, and the legend font, weight, and positioning changed to more closely match the original Elf photo in Popular Electronics. https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/sets/72157667455777465 The 20-pin header has the same pinout as Bob Armstrong used for the Spare Time Gizmos Elf 2000, but I don't presently have an Elf 2000 to test it with. For now the main intent is to use the panel for a new version of my FPGA Elf. I'm not sure whether I got the wiring of the LOAD switch correct; the Elf 2000 documentation refers to normally closed and normally open contacts of that switch, but for a toggle switch that doesn't make any sense to me. If anyone can tell me which pins of the Elf 2000 connector are grounded when the load switch is active vs inactive, that would be appreciated. The 20-pin header should have been right angle; since I only had a vertical header on-hand, the ribbon cable had to be plugged in before the switches were soldered in place, and the switches are not flush with the switch PCB. The toggle switches and push-button switch are C&K 7101SDV3BE and 8125SDV3BE, respectively, which have 0.42 inch actuator, 0.28 inch threaded bushing with keyway, vertical PCB mount with V-bracket, gold contacts, chrome actuator finish, and nickel bushing finish. These particular C&K switch variants are not very common, so I'll probably use different ones in the future, without the V-bracket. I don't yet have enough of the red and white toggle caps, which are C&K 896803000 and 896801000, respectively. The red button for the push-button switch is C&K 801803000. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 12:29:45 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 12:29:45 -0500 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: , <571B8D68.1040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <571BB109.8040800@gmail.com> On 04/23/2016 10:25 AM, tony duell wrote: >> Now upgrades within the realm of what would have been possible during a >> system's lifetime I can get on board with - using period components to >> implement things such as Ethernet interfaces, accelerators, extra memory etc... > > I'm with you on this, generally... >... > > However, how far do you go (I am asking, I am not sure of the answer). Is it > 'OK' to use a modern machine running a terminal emulator in place of a > real contemporary-to-the-machine terminal I'd be comfortable with that *if* I couldn't acquire a terminal for the system - and I'd prefer to use a period terminal over an emulator even if it wasn't necessarily the correct one for the machine. It's all about recreating the original 'experience' as closely as possible, I suppose. > What about mass storage > units that just connect to a peripheral interface (I am thinking of things > like the HPIB-interfaced drives on HP9000/200 machnes). Personally I'm planning on keeping period storage around and using it for as long as I can. There will come a day when it's not realistic/possible to do that, but I'm really not interested in emulating a vintage drive with something that uses a CF card (say) if I don't have to. > Should you > not use modern machines and compilers to cross-develop software for > classic computers? Hmm. I don't have any problem with using modern hardware for the development side of it - but I'm not entirely sure *why* I feel that way; logically I fell like I should object to it :-) > Should you only use test gear that was contemporary > with the machine (so no DSO's when working on classics, I should not > use my (ancient) logic analysers, even less the LogicDart on my > PDP11s)? I've got no problem at all with modern test equipment; I consider fixing the hardware to be a separate thing to using it, I suppose (even though I'd be inclined to say that I get far more enjoyment out of restoring vintage systems than I do once they're 100% operational). cheers Jules From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 12:45:09 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 13:45:09 -0400 Subject: COSMAC Elf switch panel using PCBs References: Message-ID: <018116DDAAF24BB7BDD95D7BBFBE18F9@310e2> >From p.11: "RUN and LOAD switches S1 and S2 in Fig. 5 control the operation of the computer. With both switches set to OFF, ~LOAD is +5V and RUN is at ground potential. This resets the 1802." Note the tilde, suggesting ~LOAD is active low. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "dwight" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 1:28 PM Subject: Re: COSMAC Elf switch panel using PCBs I looked at the schematic pdf and it looks right. The ground lead is the NC. Can you tell us what page reference you think is wrong or confusing? Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 5:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: COSMAC Elf switch panel using PCBs I built a new Elf switch panel, but this time I used two printed circuit boards for the switches and the bezel. The bezel PCB has white soldermask with black silkscreen. The next revision will have black soldermask with white silkscreen, and the legend font, weight, and positioning changed to more closely match the original Elf photo in Popular Electronics. https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/sets/72157667455777465 The 20-pin header has the same pinout as Bob Armstrong used for the Spare Time Gizmos Elf 2000, but I don't presently have an Elf 2000 to test it with. For now the main intent is to use the panel for a new version of my FPGA Elf. I'm not sure whether I got the wiring of the LOAD switch correct; the Elf 2000 documentation refers to normally closed and normally open contacts of that switch, but for a toggle switch that doesn't make any sense to me. If anyone can tell me which pins of the Elf 2000 connector are grounded when the load switch is active vs inactive, that would be appreciated. The 20-pin header should have been right angle; since I only had a vertical header on-hand, the ribbon cable had to be plugged in before the switches were soldered in place, and the switches are not flush with the switch PCB. The toggle switches and push-button switch are C&K 7101SDV3BE and 8125SDV3BE, respectively, which have 0.42 inch actuator, 0.28 inch threaded bushing with keyway, vertical PCB mount with V-bracket, gold contacts, chrome actuator finish, and nickel bushing finish. These particular C&K switch variants are not very common, so I'll probably use different ones in the future, without the V-bracket. I don't yet have enough of the red and white toggle caps, which are C&K 896803000 and 896801000, respectively. The red button for the push-button switch is C&K 801803000. From macro at linux-mips.org Sat Apr 23 12:57:22 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 18:57:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Well! I took out the DROM and switched it on again. The machine bleeped at > me, but then it gave me a console and I was able to boot VMS! I'm glad that it worked, this will certainly make further diagnostics easier, and you have a usable machine anyway. > I will have to see if the NVRAM is now populated and whether it will > continue to work with the DROM installed. First: to double-check, how did you know it was a NVRAM failure, did LEDs show DC (xxox xxoo)? Second: it may also be that DROM itself is faulty, a bit may have flipped for example; NB this is UV EPROM, so things happen. Maybe someone can share a known-good image. > Thanks! You are welcome! Maciej From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 13:01:06 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 13:01:06 -0500 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <20160423153743.79BCC18C125@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160423153743.79BCC18C125@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <571BB862.3040609@gmail.com> On 04/23/2016 10:37 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jules Richardson > > > I can't see the point in modern upgrades .. At the point where people > > start adding emulated storage, USB interfaces, VGA display hardware > > etc. it stops being a vintage system and starts being a modern version > > which just happens to still have a few vintage parts. > > I agree with you to some degree, but... > > Some components are just hard/impossible to find now - like old original disk > drives (seen any RP0x's for sale recently?) True. I think my personal view is that I'll consider modern replacements to things when it's impossible to use the originals - but not simply for reasons of speed, cost, convenience. > running the disks is both non-trivial (power/heat) and risks damaging > what are effectively museum pieces. There I'd just say run them until they break and can't be fixed, and then they can become static museum exhibits. Slight caveat there though that every effort is made within the community as a whole to document the hardware before there are no operational examples left. > building a board that uses an SD memory > card to emulate an RP0x, that's within my grasp. And it takes a lot less room > and power, to boot. To me it's not nearly as much fun, though... I want the sights and the sounds of the original hardware, warts and all. As I mentioned in a reply to Tony though, I don't mind modern equivalents when there's no choice; my issue's really just with using those equivalents when in the possession of operational originals, and with adding functionality using modern components. > Also, the _systems_ were designed to have upgrades installed, and did, BITD - > many of which were not conceived when the machine first came out. E.g. our > 11/45 at LCS wound up with 1MB MOS memory boards in it (much smaller and less > power-hungry than the original memory), and high-speed LANs, neither of which > were ever envisaged when the machine was built. I've no problem with that at all, within a vintage context. I don't mind some ancient board being used in some even-more-ancient machine - but at the same time I wouldn't want to use a board that takes whatever memory modules people are sticking into PCs these days. I couldn't come up with any kind of cut-off date for what I'm comfortable with, although I suppose a lot of it comes down to not using examples of anything that couldn't have been done during the system's typical operational lifetime. > I don't see that building, say, a UNIBUS USB interface now is really that > different from building a high-speed LAN board BITD. I think there I'd be asking myself what the purpose of the USB interface was - and if a 'period' equivalent which achieved the same end result was feasible. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 13:07:59 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 13:07:59 -0500 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <571BB9FF.4070303@gmail.com> On 04/22/2016 11:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > The only BBC copro that could run GEM, AFAIAA, was the BBC Master 512 > with the Intel 80186. And the '286 copro for the ABC3xx machines, I expect; the '186 which ended up in the M512 was essentially a cost-reduced version of that board (slower CPU and less RAM), and Acorn used some of the '286 boards in-house for M512 development. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 13:11:20 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 13:11:20 -0500 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <5718E8FB.1040001@pico-systems.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5718C1E5.7030601@gmail.com> <5718E8FB.1040001@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <571BBAC8.206@gmail.com> On 04/21/2016 09:51 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 04/21/2016 07:04 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On 04/20/2016 10:00 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Nice collection. I'd forgotten about the 32016! What software ran on these >>> respective processors? >> >> OS-wise the 32016 ran something called Panos, with Pandora as the >> firmware - mostly written in Modula-2. Acorn (working with Logica) >> attempted a Xenix port, and some documentation references Xenix as being >> available, but I don't think it was ever released; having to run all the >> I/O across the Tube interface just proved to be too much of a bottleneck. >> > I'm pretty sure I ran both Genix and then Xenix on the Logical > Microcomputer Co. 32016 we bought. Oh, I'm sure there were ports around which used that particular CPU. But within the context of Acorn's co-processor, I've never seen evidence that Xenix ever saw the light of day. I do have some internal company documents which suggest that they were having some terrible performance issues with the port though, so it was certainly attempted... Jules From ben at bensinclair.com Sat Apr 23 13:16:10 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 13:16:10 -0500 Subject: Tadpole Sparcbook Hard Drive Message-ID: This is a long shot, but does anyone have a Tadpole Sparcbook 3TX hard drive? Their existence may be just a myth. -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Apr 23 13:16:18 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 14:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) Message-ID: <20160423181618.9EC1B18C129@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > AFAIK, the only non-FPP board in the CPU which is interchangeable > between the two machines is the M8132 (instruction register decode & > condition codes) So it seems like there's an(other) error in the DEC documentation. If one looks at 11/70 Maintenance Manual (EK-11070-MM-002), it says (pg. 1-3) that the KB11-C (11/70 later CPU) contains an M8133 ROM and ROM Control board, the same as the KB11-B (earlier CPU, pg. 1-4), _but_ ... The KB11-C prints include the drawings for the M8123 (also used by the KB11-D, the later /45 CPU). Other manuals confirm that the KB11-C uses the M8123 (see, e.g., the KB11-A,D Maintainence Manual, EK-KB11A-MM-004, pg 1-1). I _thought_ the KB11-D used two of the same boards as the KB11-C, but then, when I went to check, to be sure I had the correct info (before sending out my email intended to "just want to be accurate", sigh), I relied on the DEC manual... :-( Oh well, that's what I get for relying on DEC manuals! :-) Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 23 13:21:09 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 19:21:09 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Maciej W. > Rozycki > Sent: 23 April 2016 18:57 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > On Sat, 23 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > Well! I took out the DROM and switched it on again. The machine > > bleeped at me, but then it gave me a console and I was able to boot VMS! > > I'm glad that it worked, this will certainly make further diagnostics easier, and > you have a usable machine anyway. > > > I will have to see if the NVRAM is now populated and whether it will > > continue to work with the DROM installed. > > First: to double-check, how did you know it was a NVRAM failure, did LEDs > show DC (xxox xxoo)? Yes that is exactly the code I get on the LEDs. > > Second: it may also be that DROM itself is faulty, a bit may have flipped for > example; NB this is UV EPROM, so things happen. Maybe someone can > share a known-good image. > When I put the DROM back the failure returned. So it is either a bad SRAM, a short/open somewhere, or the DROM code itself. I have a PROM programmer, but it is only for DIP packages, I don't have the facilities to read a PROM in this type of package. I will have another look round for any obvious problems on the board, but it looked OK to me when I checked. Getting the SROM diags out might help too, I will have a look at that. Regards Rob From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 13:20:33 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 13:20:33 -0500 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <571BBCF1.7000809@gmail.com> On 04/20/2016 10:32 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 20/04/2016 16:00, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 2016-04-20 10:27 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> It did indeed - I have one. Also a couple of 6502 CoPros, a 65C102, a >>> 32016 and a pair of Z80s, which were nice in their day. >> >> Nice collection. I'd forgotten about the 32016! What software ran on >> these respective processors? > > There was a collection of "scientific" software for the 32016 - things like > Spice, some maths software, and assorted CAD stuff I remember there being some connection with the ACW and Quickchip CAD, but IIRC the disks I had had been reformatted, and it wasn't obvious if any of the product actually ran on the 32016 side of the machine, or if it was just the same old 6502-side application which was available for regular BBC micros. > licensed for the 32016 ACW and the Master Scientific, which came later. > The Z80 CoPro ran CP/M - real licensed CP/M 2.2, not the bastardised > often-not-compatible "CPN" lookalike offered by Torch, and came with GEM > and various office software. The ARM CoPro originally had little software > beyond TWIN (the Two Window Editor), assembler, BASIC, and utilities. The > 6502 variants - including the 65C102 that was used for the Master Turbo - > just ran whatever you'd otherwise have on the Beeb itself On the back of that... the Cumana 68008 board ran OS-9, the 'bigger' of the two Torch 68000 boards could run System III Unix, and if I remember right the Casper 68000 board just came with a bunch of utilities and programming tools (although I think FLEX may have been available as an optional extra purchase). I'm not sure what the PEDL Z80 board came with. The Torch 8088 board ran MSDOS, I believe. cheers Jules From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 23 13:28:04 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 13:28:04 -0500 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <20160423162944.2D31418C125@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160423162944.2D31418C125@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <571BBEB4.6050902@pico-systems.com> On 04/23/2016 11:29 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jon Elson > > > The 11/45 and 11/70 are mostly the same processor. ... > > the data paths boards and FPU are the same part numbers > > 'Yes' to the FPP (well, there are two versions, the FP11-B and FP11-C, but > they are both identical in the two machines). > > 'No' to the data paths, though: e.g. the M8100 in the /45 (the board with the > 74S181's on it) is replaced by the M8130 in the /70. The two are _very_ > similar, but I suspect not interchangeable (examing the prints shows minor > differences). OK, didn't know that! Jon From radioengr at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 13:29:46 2016 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 11:29:46 -0700 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: References: <20160423025414.C4852C61AC356@bart0104.email.locaweb.com.br> <037601d19d29$ed778cb0$c866a610$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <571BBF1A.3030407@gmail.com> On 4/22/2016 11:56 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jecel Assumpcao >> Jr. Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 10:54 PM To: General Discussion: >> On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: >> Harris H800 Computer) >> >> Eric Smith mentioned: >>> [2901 A, B, and C, CMOS versions] [2903 and 29203] [Intel 3001 >>> and 3002] [MMI 5701/6701] [Motorola MC10800] >> >> I'd add the Texas Instruments SN74S481, SN54LS481 and SN74LS481 TTL >> 4 bit slices. The Schottky version had a 90ns clock cycle and the >> low power versions 120ns. These were 48 pins chips and didn't have >> an internal register bank like the 2901. The idea was that you >> implemented a memory to memory architecture like the TMS9900. ... > > > I'd say the 74181 (1970) deserves a mention here. Simpler (no > register component, ALU only) but it pretty much kicked off the start > of IC-level bit slicing. > > Adding to Eric's mention of the PDP-6, the HP2116 (1966) did > board-level bit-slicing (CPU registers, ALU, datapaths on 4 identical > boards of 4 bits each). The MC10181 (same thing at the 74181 except implemented in ECL) is used by the DEC KL-10 in several places. Rob. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 13:31:58 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 12:31:58 -0600 Subject: COSMAC Elf switch panel using PCBs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 11:28 AM, dwight wrote: > I looked at the schematic pdf and it looks right. > The ground lead is the NC. It's an SPDT toggle. Neither the NC or NO pin of the switch should be tied to ground; it's the common pin that's grounded. So for a toggle switch, which side is NC and which is NO? Anyhow, apparently if I'd read it more carefully, it is explained in the manual. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 12:06:10 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 19:06:10 +0200 Subject: CDC 6600/Cyber 73 Memories - WAS: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: <89D83B68-2702-4B77-843A-44B3A8AEAD85@comcast.net> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A19F@mail.bensene.com> <57193028.7010106@sydex.com> <57196363.4000502@sydex.com> <89D83B68-2702-4B77-843A-44B3A8AEAD85@comcast.net> Message-ID: Now that we're on the subject of 6600's and the like... I have a bit of a puzzle. I have some CDC 7600 modules; these consist of 8 thin PCB's, with metal shielding in between. On the back, there are 8 rows of 16 pins, and on the front there are 8 rows of 6 recessed pins, staggered (I believe for testing/debugging purposes). On the top and bottom of the front is a tab with a screwhole in it, black like the entire front of the modules, and as wide as the module it self. So far so good, this matches all the photo's of 7600 modules I've seen online. Now, I also have some modules that are the same form factor, same number of pins in the back, but they're different. There's only 4 pcb's, no shielding between them, except in the middle, 4 x 8 pins in the front, and the tabs on the top and bottom of the front are small (not as wide as the module itself, and silver-colored. The pcb's are not connected with soldered-in wiring, but with goldplated wires that run between sockets in the pcb's. On the pcb's are loose transistors, resistors, etc like in the 7600 modules, but also some square Fujitsu ECL IC's (100550 and the like), with date codes that indicate 1983, which sounds a bit late for a 7600. Any idea what these modules might have been used in? Camiel On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 2:50 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Apr 21, 2016, at 7:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> ... >>> Neat. PLATO made extensive use of ECS, swapping per-terminal state >>> and programs in and out of ECS for fast interactive service. ECS was >>> also where most I/O buffers went, with PPUs doing disk and terminal >>> I/O from/to ECS rather than central memory. A dual mainframe 6500 >>> system (4 "unified" processors total) did a decent job supporting 600 >>> concurrent logged-in terminals, out of a total of 1008 connected. >>> That was around 1977 when I worked on that system at the U of >>> Illinois. >> >> Was that UIUC? I processed some CYBER tapes from there a couple of >> years ago--there's an archivist there who uses us to retrieve contents >> of various dusty items. > > Yup. A couple of us helped put the PLATO copy running on the DtCyber emulator together, see cyber1.org. > > paul > > From kylevowen at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 14:46:08 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 14:46:08 -0500 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: <20160423160419.00D13A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> <20160423160419.00D13A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On a related note, a former DEC field engineer gave me this key (and keychain). He thought it was a PDP-8 key at first, but it's not the standard XX2247. It says KBM1100...any ideas what this might go to? http://imgur.com/a/4v8Hq Thanks, Kyle From drb at msu.edu Sat Apr 23 15:31:35 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 16:31:35 -0400 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 23 Apr 2016 14:46:08 -0500.) References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> <20160423160419.00D13A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20160423203135.D2135A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > On a related note, a former DEC field engineer gave me this key (and > keychain). He thought it was a PDP-8 key at first, but it's not the > standard XX2247. It says KBM1100...any ideas what this might go to? VAXen were used in GE EDACS repeater controllers, so perhaps one of those systems? De From macro at linux-mips.org Sat Apr 23 15:28:46 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 21:28:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Second: it may also be that DROM itself is faulty, a bit may have flipped > for > > example; NB this is UV EPROM, so things happen. Maybe someone can > > share a known-good image. > > > > When I put the DROM back the failure returned. So it is either a bad SRAM, a > short/open somewhere, or the DROM code itself. I have a PROM programmer, but > it is only for DIP packages, I don't have the facilities to read a PROM in > this type of package. I will have another look round for any obvious > problems on the board, but it looked OK to me when I checked. Getting the > SROM diags out might help too, I will have a look at that. First of all you might be able to run some SRAM diagnostics yourself, either from the console (if it has a tool for this; at worst you could poke at it manually with deposit/examine commands, but the complicated flashbus access protocol will make it a tedious task unless there is a way to script it) or from the OS (can't help how to do this from VMS; under Linux you could mmap(2) /dev/mem at the right address and then poke at it with a little program doing the right dance to get the flashbus access protocol right), to see if it shows any symptoms of misbehaviour. To experiment with DROM you might be able to find a DIP-to-PLCC socket adapter, pinouts for ROMs are pretty standard I believe. A ROM emulator might help too if you can get your hands on one, second-hand units are not exactly expensive nowadays as they went out of favour it would seem. Overall, hard to say which failure case would be better (or worse). It looks to me like at this point you have several options to proceed with. Good luck with your investigation and recovery! I wish I had one of these machines, they are sweet and they run Linux out of the box. ;) Maciej From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Apr 23 15:44:18 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 21:44:18 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 23 Apr 2016 21:28:46 +0100 (BST)" References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> > > First of all you might be able to run some SRAM diagnostics yourself, > either from the console (if it has a tool for this; at worst you could > poke at it manually with deposit/examine commands, but the complicated > flashbus access protocol will make it a tedious task unless there is a way > to script it) or from the OS (can't help how to do this from VMS; under > Linux you could mmap(2) /dev/mem at the right address and then poke at it > with a little program doing the right dance to get the flashbus access > protocol right), to see if it shows any symptoms of misbehaviour. > The equivelant in VMS is sys$crmpsc. I can supply a sample program (in macro32) which calls it to read the firmware in a VAXStation 2000. I don't know the right addresses to use for an Alphastation 200 though. (Congratulations on the progress made so far. Maybe there is hope yet for my two DEC 3000/600 machines which have similar symptoms.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 23 16:03:13 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 22:03:13 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <018d01d19da3$8cba8880$a62f9980$@ntlworld.com> > First of all you might be able to run some SRAM diagnostics yourself, either > from the console (if it has a tool for this; at worst you could poke at it > manually with deposit/examine commands, but the complicated flashbus > access protocol will make it a tedious task unless there is a way to script it) I have been trying to work out how to do that very thing. I don't think there is quite enough info in the technical manual. > or > from the OS (can't help how to do this from VMS; under Linux you could > mmap(2) /dev/mem at the right address and then poke at it with a little > program doing the right dance to get the flashbus access protocol right), to > see if it shows any symptoms of misbehaviour. If necessary I should be able to install linux, but still, working out the address doesn't seem trivial. > > To experiment with DROM you might be able to find a DIP-to-PLCC socket > adapter, pinouts for ROMs are pretty standard I believe. I have ordered an adapter so I can read the ROM. Would be good, as you suggest, to read someone else's to compare... > A ROM emulator > might help too if you can get your hands on one, second-hand units are not > exactly expensive nowadays as they went out of favour it would seem. > > Overall, hard to say which failure case would be better (or worse). It looks to > me like at this point you have several options to proceed with. > > Good luck with your investigation and recovery! I wish I had one of these > machines, they are sweet and they run Linux out of the box. ;) > > Maciej Many thanks for all your help today! Regards Rob From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 23 16:34:36 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 14:34:36 -0700 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <571BAB7D.10806@sydex.com> References: <20160423124130.529EF18C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <571BAB7D.10806@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8BB77581-589D-4BA7-96A6-3C8D569080E7@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Apr-23, at 10:06 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/23/2016 05:41 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> From: Brent Hilpert >> >>> I'd say the 74181 (1970) deserves a mention here. Simpler (no >>> register component, ALU only) but it pretty much kicked off the >>> start of IC-level bit slicing. > > I recall reading about the 74181 introduction back in the day--it > created great excitement and speculation about how far the industry was > from a computer-on-a-chip. I think I still have a couple of the things > in my hellbox. In 1972 or 1973 one of Radio Electronics or Popular Electronics had a construction article for the E&L Instruments Digi-Designer. If you recall, the Digi-Designer was essentially a vehicle for E&L's new plug-in breadboard. For those younger, yes, -those- plug-in breadboards, that are still the most prevalent hardware prototyping/educational technique today. AIR, the 74181 was featured as an experiment to wire up on the Digi-Designer in that article. > In the day, I'm not certain that TTL had the edge on integration, > however. It always seemed that DTL and RTL had the edge in complexity. > Before the 181, I was playing around with the RTL 796 dual full adder > and an 8-bit Fairchild DTL memory--IIRC the latter used a 7V clock. I think TTL was quickly on par for density with DTL & RTL and overtook them by the late 60s. I have 7490s (decade counter) from late-1966 and early-1967, and many TTL MSI functions were there by 1969. The 7484 (16-bit memory) is listed in the TI 1969 TTL databook. RTL was passe by then and DTL was heading that way. I don't think DTL got any more complex than such as the 8-bit memory you mention, at least in the main. I was surprised by the early date code on the 7490s when I ran across them in a piece of test equipment. > The interesting thing was that there seemed to be a distrust of LSI > chips early on. I recall working on a project around 1973, where the > lead engineer preferred to design his own UART from SSI rather than use > one of the new UART chips. > > --Chuck > > > > From ethan at 757.org Sat Apr 23 16:51:40 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 17:51:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WTB: Sun Voyager Bag, Oberheim Synthesizer Message-ID: Two things on the hunt list: 1. Sun Sparcstation Voyager bag (the bag to put it in) 2. Oberheim Matrix 6, 6R or 1000 synthesizers. From brain at jbrain.com Sat Apr 23 16:56:19 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 16:56:19 -0500 Subject: Ibm s-100 system? In-Reply-To: <01444CFD-3A1D-4F29-A30F-AA2E7938F934@shiresoft.com> References: <769FFC4B-57BC-48E8-8D31-2D7351EC8E28@shiresoft.com> <01444CFD-3A1D-4F29-A30F-AA2E7938F934@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <571BEF83.3050201@jbrain.com> On 4/22/2016 11:02 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I wrote a somewhat long post a while ago on why we?re still stuck with > various timing artifacts due to the original PC?s choice to use an > NTSC color burst crystal as the main crystal for the PC. TTFN - Guy Link? -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 23 17:46:52 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 15:46:52 -0700 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <8BB77581-589D-4BA7-96A6-3C8D569080E7@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20160423124130.529EF18C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <571BAB7D.10806@sydex.com> <8BB77581-589D-4BA7-96A6-3C8D569080E7@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <571BFB5C.3070005@sydex.com> On 04/23/2016 02:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I was surprised by the early date code on the 7490s when I ran across > them in a piece of test equipment. What was surprising to me is how quickly the industry standardized on the TI 7400/5400 parts. Early (ca 1967) Moto databooks had MTTL I, MTTL II and MTTL III that were essentially sui generis. By 1969, the MC7400/5400 had pretty much taken over. Things moved really quickly back then. I recall the mW MRTL "experimenter's pack" with HEP part numbers. IIRC, about half the projects in the accompanying booklet used the RTL stuff in analog, not digital applications. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 18:01:53 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 19:01:53 -0400 Subject: Ibm s-100 system? In-Reply-To: <571BEF83.3050201@jbrain.com> References: <769FFC4B-57BC-48E8-8D31-2D7351EC8E28@shiresoft.com> <01444CFD-3A1D-4F29-A30F-AA2E7938F934@shiresoft.com> <571BEF83.3050201@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 4/22/2016 11:02 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> I wrote a somewhat long post a while ago on why we?re still stuck with >> various timing artifacts due to the original PC?s choice to use an NTSC >> color burst crystal as the main crystal for the PC. TTFN - Guy >> > Link? > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > > I know Jon (Glitch works) has an S-100 card with this IBM square RAM. I saw it at VCF East the other weekend. Anyway, I seem to recall that an S-100 system was used to actually test and port the original IBM DOS 1.0 for 5 1/4" for the new IBM system. I have a copy of a MS or IBM DOS for my CompuPro on 8" disk, I think it's v. 1.25. I also have a copy of 1.25 on my CBM 256x, with 8086 co-processor. Neither of these were BEFORE the original IBM PC, but hint at a time when there was a "DOS" in development floating around before the actual IBM system. This DOS could have been demoed in Europe on an S-100. lots of conjecture here. Just speculating. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Apr 23 18:09:15 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 23:09:15 +0000 Subject: COSMAC Elf switch panel using PCBs In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Lf it were mine to make, it would be a spring return momentary SPDT. NC would be ground and NO would be +5V, as per the schematic. I'm not sure what the manual says about it. It is debounced with a jam latch, as per schematic. Tinker Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 11:28 AM, dwight wrote: > I looked at the schematic pdf and it looks right. > The ground lead is the NC. It's an SPDT toggle. Neither the NC or NO pin of the switch should be tied to ground; it's the common pin that's grounded. So for a toggle switch, which side is NC and which is NO? Anyhow, apparently if I'd read it more carefully, it is explained in the manual. From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 23 18:10:03 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 18:10:03 -0500 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <8BB77581-589D-4BA7-96A6-3C8D569080E7@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20160423124130.529EF18C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <571BAB7D.10806@sydex.com> <8BB77581-589D-4BA7-96A6-3C8D569080E7@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <571C00CB.9010705@pico-systems.com> On 04/23/2016 04:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> The interesting thing was that there seemed to be a distrust of LSI >> chips early on. I recall working on a project around 1973, where the >> lead engineer preferred to design his own UART from SSI rather than use >> one of the new UART chips. >> Well, he may have been worried about availability, or possibly the part going obsolete. Those are other issues that a designer might be concerned about, as well as reliability. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 23 18:15:23 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 18:15:23 -0500 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <571BFB5C.3070005@sydex.com> References: <20160423124130.529EF18C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <571BAB7D.10806@sydex.com> <8BB77581-589D-4BA7-96A6-3C8D569080E7@cs.ubc.ca> <571BFB5C.3070005@sydex.com> Message-ID: <571C020B.5010303@pico-systems.com> On 04/23/2016 05:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/23/2016 02:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> I was surprised by the early date code on the 7490s when I ran across >> them in a piece of test equipment. > What was surprising to me is how quickly the industry standardized on > the TI 7400/5400 parts. Early (ca 1967) Moto databooks had MTTL I, > MTTL II and MTTL III that were essentially sui generis. By 1969, the > MC7400/5400 had pretty much taken over. Things moved really quickly > back then. > > Lots of designers and system manufacturers were VERY leery of adopting anything single-source. When a number of chip makers (Nat Semi, Motorola, Signetics, Fairchild) all jumped onto making compatible 7400 parts, the industry had the confidence that parts in the series would be available for a long time. Back in the late 60's, early 70's the industry was moving at a breakneck pace, and chip families had very short lifetimes before their makers hopped onto the next new thing. (Oh, yeah, you said the same thing in the last sentence!) Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 23 19:09:36 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 17:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ibm s-100 system? In-Reply-To: References: <769FFC4B-57BC-48E8-8D31-2D7351EC8E28@shiresoft.com> <01444CFD-3A1D-4F29-A30F-AA2E7938F934@shiresoft.com> <571BEF83.3050201@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Apr 2016, william degnan wrote: > I have a copy of a MS or IBM DOS for my CompuPro on 8" disk, I think it's > v. 1.25. 1.25 would be MS-DOS. The PC-DOS equivalent was 1.10 ("equivalent", NOT exactly the same (GWBASIC, MODE.COM differences, IO.SYS/IBMBIO.COM differences, FORMAT, DISKCOPY, DISKCOMP differences)) MS-DOS 1.25 could be configured by OEM for various disk formats. At that time, MS-DOS was not available for direct retail sale. "Only available from computer OEM". OEMs could sell it retail to buyers of their computers, and theoretically ONLY to them. In reality, few OEMs wanted to, nor bothered to, confirm "legitimacy" of their customers, and many OEM copies found their way to retail sales. ("gray market") In fact NO version of MS-DOS was legally retail until 5.00. MANY OEMs let out "OEM" MS-DOS for retail sale by third parties. PC-DOS 1.10 was 160K and 320K ONLY. Many OEM versions of MS-DOS 1.25 (such as Compaq) deliberately lockstepped with IBM, and did not offer any diverging capabilities. For many of those OEMs, the main thing that they had to offer was a [cheaper] way to get a 5150, with possibly some clever developments. > I also have a copy of 1.25 on my CBM 256x, with 8086 > co-processor. Neither of these were BEFORE the original IBM PC, but hint > at a time when there was a "DOS" in development floating around before the > actual IBM system. This DOS could have been demoed in Europe on an S-100. > lots of conjecture here. Just speculating. 1.25 could NOT have been demoed in Europe, nor anywhere else until 1982, well after the 5150. HOWEVER, it is entirely possible that that "IBM S-100" was merely a Seattle Computer Products S100, or even an SCP 8086 CPU board in a Cromemco S100 system, with a piece of tape changing the name. (In order to "test the waters' about how an IBM 808x machine would be received?) 1.00 came out in August 1981. PC-DOS 1.10 came out in May 1982. MS-DOS 1.25 came out in June 1982. The existence of later versions AFTER the first one, does NOT "hint at a time when there was a DOS in development floating around before" the first one. Existence of a later version never hints at presence of something before the first one, although CONTENT might give some clues of what was being considered at various times. It hints at further development, and the possibilities of spreading out into areas where IBM did not tread. But, YES, the very first version WAS for an S100 machine made by Seattle Computer Products. Written by Tim Paterson, it was called "QDOS" (Quick and Dirty OS), and then "86-DOS". (and, for a while, "SB-86") YES, it supported 8". Then, in July 1981, SCP sold it to Microsoft, who handed off to IBM. Microsoft's contract permitted them to sell it to other computer OEMs, but ONLY through other computer OEMs. THAT restriction ended in 1991, commemorated with MS-DOS 5.00. After Microsoft upgraded PC-DOS from 1.00 to 1.10, they then provided computer OEMs with a similar product numbered 1.25 OEMs were expected to make their own personalized and customized IO.SYS, MODE.COM (could also do stuff such as switching between internal/external monitor, etc.), etc. OEMs did not even need to call it "MS-DOS" (Zenith Z-DOS) Trivia: there was no one point one. it was one point ten. Internally, the minor version of the OS was stored as a two digit decimal number, obviously stored in binary. Thus, "1.1" was stored as a 1 and 0Ah. MOV AH, 30h INT 21h returns major version in AL, minor in AH. "1.1" returns 0A01, 1.25 returns 1901, 3.30 returns 1E03, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 23 19:37:44 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 17:37:44 -0700 Subject: Ibm s-100 system? In-Reply-To: References: <769FFC4B-57BC-48E8-8D31-2D7351EC8E28@shiresoft.com> <01444CFD-3A1D-4F29-A30F-AA2E7938F934@shiresoft.com> <571BEF83.3050201@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <571C1558.3060204@sydex.com> On 04/23/2016 05:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > After Microsoft upgraded PC-DOS from 1.00 to 1.10, they then > provided computer OEMs with a similar product numbered 1.25 OEMs were > expected to make their own personalized and customized IO.SYS, > MODE.COM (could also do stuff such as switching between > internal/external monitor, etc.), etc. OEMs did not even need to call > it "MS-DOS" (Zenith Z-DOS) I have a recollection that Bill had a problem with licensing terms for DOS--something about a minimum license fee for OEMs. They cooked up a way to take a copy of PC DOS 1.1 and replace the IBMBIO.SYS component and get the thing to work on a 85/88 system. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 23 19:46:06 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 17:46:06 -0700 Subject: COSMAC Elf switch panel using PCBs In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I think you two are talking different versions of the Elf: Eric is talking specifically about the Elf 2000 whose circuit design has been modified considerably from the original version Dwight appears to be referring to. For my part, when I refurbished a period homebrew implementation (someone's high school project) I relabeled the switches to indicate all 4 of the functional states of the 2 switches rather than the somewhat inexplicable "LOAD" and "RUN". http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/cosmacElf/index.html On 2016-Apr-23, at 4:09 PM, dwight wrote: > Lf it were mine to make, it would be a spring return > momentary SPDT. NC would be ground and NO would be +5V, > as per the schematic. > I'm not sure what the manual says about it. > It is debounced with a jam latch, as per schematic. > Tinker Dwight > > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith > > On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 11:28 AM, dwight wrote: >> I looked at the schematic pdf and it looks right. >> The ground lead is the NC. > > It's an SPDT toggle. Neither the NC or NO pin of the switch should be > tied to ground; it's the common pin that's grounded. So for a toggle > switch, which side is NC and which is NO? > > Anyhow, apparently if I'd read it more carefully, it is explained in the manual. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat Apr 23 19:58:23 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 17:58:23 -0700 Subject: First Retail version of MS-DOS was Re: Ibm s-100 system? Message-ID: <0guipct2p8daqpjrtcltrajc.1461459502723@email.android.com> I am not sure if 5.00 was the first Retail version. I know that for fact there is a 3.2 version released in the blue plexiglass Microsoft retail packaging. The 4.x versions are usually gray boxed with some having OEM/new computer stickers. -Ali From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 23 20:05:57 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 18:05:57 -0700 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <571C020B.5010303@pico-systems.com> References: <20160423124130.529EF18C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <571BAB7D.10806@sydex.com> <8BB77581-589D-4BA7-96A6-3C8D569080E7@cs.ubc.ca> <571BFB5C.3070005@sydex.com> <571C020B.5010303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2016-Apr-23, at 4:15 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 04/23/2016 05:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 04/23/2016 02:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> I was surprised by the early date code on the 7490s when I ran across >>> them in a piece of test equipment. >> What was surprising to me is how quickly the industry standardized on >> the TI 7400/5400 parts. Early (ca 1967) Moto databooks had MTTL I, >> MTTL II and MTTL III that were essentially sui generis. By 1969, the >> MC7400/5400 had pretty much taken over. Things moved really quickly >> back then. >> >> > Lots of designers and system manufacturers were VERY leery of adopting anything single-source. > When a number of chip makers (Nat Semi, Motorola, Signetics, Fairchild) all jumped onto making compatible 7400 parts, the industry had the confidence that parts in the series would be available for a long time. Back in the late 60's, early 70's the industry was moving at a breakneck pace, and chip families had very short lifetimes before their makers hopped onto the next new thing. (Oh, yeah, you said the same thing in the last sentence!) Fellow here did some research into the 181 history and came to a similar conclusion: http://ygg-it.tripod.com/id1.html He suggests TI being the first to contract for a second-source sent the buyers (esp. military) to the 7400 series. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sat Apr 23 20:10:56 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 18:10:56 -0700 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: <571B8D68.1040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9CC90C02-C7FE-4A96-B066-9580507AD964@eschatologist.net> Overall I'm personally much more about using the system *as a whole* than using it *as it was*. For example, I have a Mac IIci with maxed-out RAM, some large SCSI disks, Ethernet, and an accelerated NuBus video card, all possible at the time. (Though 128MB RAM and the 1GB disks would have bankrupt a small nation in 1989.) I'm not going to plug it into a period monitor though, I just acquired a multi sync LCD with which to replace its current late-1990s CRT. Similarly, I have a BigMessOWires MacFloppyEmu for most of my real storage needs, which has virtually no latency and virtually infinite capacity, so I can spend my time with the system using it rather than spend it all booting it and launching applications. Similarly, I pulled the 4GB drive from my SPARCstation 20[1] and put in a pair of 167GB 15.5K Cheetahs, so I could run Solaris 8 and NetBSD fast and never worry about space. I have an external 411 to put the 4GB drive in, so I can still run SunOS, I've put in a SunSwift 100Base-T card to make getting things to the system faster, and if I add more storage it'll be with a SCSI2SD or equivalent, again so I can use the system rather than wait to use it. I've even looked a little at ProFile emulation for my Lisa 2/10. I don't even know if its current ProFile still works, since all ProFiles are old enough at this point that their formatting is decaying, and I've also moved a few times in the dozen years since I last booted it. (At least the MacFloppyEmu will also work with the Lisa, so I don't need its 3.5in drive to work, or to run Dart on my IIci to write 400KB floppies?) And again, to avoid spending all my time with it waiting, I've looked a tiny bit at how to replace the two 512KB RAM boards with a single board with 2MB, 8MB, or whatever it will take, using some more modern hardware. I want to use the systems as a whole enough not to just live in emulation, but I only have a limited amount of time to spend with them, so replacing just a few subsystems in ways that make the use of the overall systems smoother seems like a reasonable compromise. -- Chris [1] When I first got my SS20 home and booted it, it came up as ids-three.smcc.sun.com and said it was starting Cadence license servers. I assume it was an identity server for Sun Microcomputer, if anyone knows more I'd love to hear about it. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 23 20:25:17 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 18:25:17 -0700 Subject: FA: 5.25" floppy mailers Message-ID: <571C207D.5090404@sydex.com> I just came across two unopened boxes (500 each) of 6"x0" 5.25" floppy disk mailers. Anyone want them? You can have them for shipping, FOB 97405. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 20:50:34 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 19:50:34 -0600 Subject: COSMAC Elf switch panel using PCBs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 5:09 PM, dwight wrote: > Lf it were mine to make, it would be a spring return > momentary SPDT. NC would be ground and NO would be +5V, > as per the schematic. > I'm not sure what the manual says about it. > It is debounced with a jam latch, as per schematic. That would be fine for the Elf2K, but I want to also use the same switch panel for a different design that uses a single-ended input only, so I need it to be a true toggle rather than momentary. If it was momentary, it would have to be momentary-off-momentary, so it still wouldn't really make sense (IMNSHO) to refer to the contacts as NC and NO. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Apr 23 21:18:50 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 02:18:50 +0000 Subject: COSMAC Elf switch panel using PCBs In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: You'd need to decide, LOAD is switch up or LOAD is switch down. Even if a single wire, it needs to be debounced. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith If it was momentary, it would have to be momentary-off-momentary, so it still wouldn't really make sense (IMNSHO) to refer to the contacts as NC and NO. From ian.finder at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 21:28:18 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 19:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tadpole Sparcbook Hard Drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What's your scenario? Do you have the caddy and cable? If so, a SCSI2SD is a good bet. Sent from Outlook for iPhone ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ben Sinclair Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 6:16:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Tadpole Sparcbook Hard Drive This is a long shot, but does anyone have a Tadpole Sparcbook 3TX hard drive? Their existence may be just a myth. -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Apr 23 21:32:18 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 02:32:18 +0000 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: References: <20160423124130.529EF18C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <571BAB7D.10806@sydex.com> <8BB77581-589D-4BA7-96A6-3C8D569080E7@cs.ubc.ca> <571BFB5C.3070005@sydex.com> <571C020B.5010303@pico-systems.com>, Message-ID: I recall going to Mike Quinn's and seeing barrels of RTL. I wish now that I'd bought a bunch of them. Most DTL can be replace by a TTL except a few with different pinouts and the NAND with the diode expand pin. My oldest equipment has a mix of DTL and TTL. Dwight From ben at bensinclair.com Sat Apr 23 22:00:09 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 22:00:09 -0500 Subject: Tadpole Sparcbook Hard Drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have nothing unfortunately! It's that caddy and cable that's the hard part. On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 9:28 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > What's your scenario? Do you have the caddy and cable? If so, a SCSI2SD is > a good bet. > > Sent from Outlook for iPhone > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Ben Sinclair < > ben at bensinclair.com> > Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 6:16:10 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Tadpole Sparcbook Hard Drive > > This is a long shot, but does anyone have a Tadpole Sparcbook 3TX hard > drive? > > Their existence may be just a myth. > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 00:38:22 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 23:38:22 -0600 Subject: COSMAC Elf switch panel using PCBs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 8:18 PM, dwight wrote: > You'd need to decide, LOAD is switch up or > LOAD is switch down. Which still doesn't explain how a toggle (not momentary) can be said to have NC and NO pins. But at this point I'm flogging a dead horse. > Even if a single wire, it needs to be debounced. Yes. Elf2K uses both contacts with an S-R FF. My other system is VHDL in an FPGA and has a counter-based debouncer. From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 00:44:10 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 22:44:10 -0700 Subject: 4.2BSD TU58 distribution tape for VAX-11/750? Message-ID: <571C5D2A.60409@gmail.com> Hey all -- I'm researching what I need to have on hand to get 4.2BSD installed running on my 11/750. I'm pretty close to having mass storage working, I have a SCSI TMSCP tape controller that should do the job in conjunction with a SCSI 9-track drive, and the VAX itself seems to be happy. What I don't have is a copy of the TU58 cassette that would have been provided with the 4.2BSD distribution (at least, according to the installation documents). This contains utilities for formatting the disk and copying the root filesystem (from a *real* tape drive) to the root partition, so they're pretty essential for bringing a machine up from scratch. If I had a SCSI *disk* controller, I could cheat and do the installation on SIMH (which avoids using the TU58 by cheating in a different way) and DD the whole thing over, but I'm not so blessed. I can't seem to track down a copy of this TU58 on the 'net -- anyone have one squirreled away somewhere, or know where I should be looking? Thanks, Josh From jon at jonworld.com Sun Apr 24 01:47:54 2016 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 08:47:54 +0200 Subject: 4.2BSD TU58 distribution tape for VAX-11/750? In-Reply-To: <571C5D2A.60409@gmail.com> References: <571C5D2A.60409@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > I can't seem to track down a copy of this TU58 on the 'net -- anyone have > one squirreled away somewhere, or know where I should be looking? > ???? http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/4BSD/Distributions/4.2BSD/Per_Andersson/ From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 02:26:35 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 03:26:35 -0400 Subject: COSMAC Elf switch panel using PCBs References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2016 1:38 AM > On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 8:18 PM, dwight wrote: >> You'd need to decide, LOAD is switch up or >> LOAD is switch down. > > Which still doesn't explain how a toggle (not momentary) can be said > to have NC and NO pins.------------ It kinda does, if you think of 'normal' not as a fixed function of the switch but its logically inactive state, usually relative to its (possibly implied) label and function. If a push button is labelled 'RUN' then the 'normal' state is opposite and away from that label, i.e. out or up; similarly, when a toggle switch is labelled 'RUN' then its 'normal' position will be opposite that label and like the momentary switch in that NORMAL state it can be either OPEN or CLOSED (with a complementary contact if it's a DT switch). Schematics will usually determine and indicate the 'normal' state and the switch should be mounted, labelled and connected accordingly. The on/off light switches in your house would be considered NO; by convention toggles (if any) should be UP to CLOSE and turn on the light and the 'normal' state would be OPEN and pointing DOWN. m From macro at linux-mips.org Sat Apr 23 16:25:26 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 22:25:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <018d01d19da3$8cba8880$a62f9980$@ntlworld.com> References: "Your message dated Wed, 06 Jan 2016 21:25:21 +0000" <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <018d01d19da3$8cba8880$a62f9980$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > or > > from the OS (can't help how to do this from VMS; under Linux you could > > mmap(2) /dev/mem at the right address and then poke at it with a little > > program doing the right dance to get the flashbus access protocol right), > to > > see if it shows any symptoms of misbehaviour. > > > If necessary I should be able to install linux, but still, working out the > address doesn't seem trivial. It's all in the manual. :) Check `pcdsatia.pdf' again -- Chapter 4 for overall details and Table 4-3 for flashbus device mappings in particular. The access dance including addresses to poke at is described right below the table. Yes, it's all pretty low level, but there you go! > Many thanks for all your help today! My pleasure! Maciej From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 23 18:33:47 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 00:33:47 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <019101d19db8$958cf000$c0a6d000$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Coghlan > Sent: 23 April 2016 21:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > > > > First of all you might be able to run some SRAM diagnostics yourself, > > either from the console (if it has a tool for this; at worst you could > > poke at it manually with deposit/examine commands, but the complicated > > flashbus access protocol will make it a tedious task unless there is a > > way to script it) or from the OS (can't help how to do this from VMS; > > under Linux you could mmap(2) /dev/mem at the right address and then > > poke at it with a little program doing the right dance to get the > > flashbus access protocol right), to see if it shows any symptoms of > misbehaviour. > > > > The equivelant in VMS is sys$crmpsc. I can supply a sample program (in > macro32) which calls it to read the firmware in a VAXStation 2000. > I don't know the right addresses to use for an Alphastation 200 though. > > (Congratulations on the progress made so far. Maybe there is hope yet for > my two DEC 3000/600 machines which have similar symptoms.) > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. Thanks for the tip, I had forgotten all about that system service (last used it probably 30 years ago). I'll do it in C I think (assuming I have a C compiler for the Alpha). Much easier than using examine and deposit. It would be good to see the macro code though. Thanks Rob From tingox at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 12:18:50 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 19:18:50 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > > The only thing my emulator has for it is the unfortunate fact that ND > emulators are few and far between.. they're as close to non-existing > as can be. I know of only two other efforts other than my own, and one > (the 'Haldens' emulator, a Windows-only version, with a couple of bugs > but otherwise quite good) dropped off the net years ago I think (I > have a copy of that one if someone wants it). My emulator isn't > Windows, I wrote it on Linux and tested on AIX, Solaris, IRIX, Tru64 > (and Maemo, so it actually runs on my Nokia N900 mobile phone). It's > not something streamlined and github'able. FWIW, the git repo of the "nd100em" emulator is still available, linked from this page: http://www.gnyrf.net/nd100.html This emulator hasn't got very far, but at least the source code is available, in case someone wants to add features and improve it.. HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From macro at linux-mips.org Sun Apr 24 08:33:52 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:33:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Apr 2016, Peter Coghlan wrote: > (Congratulations on the progress made so far. Maybe there is hope yet > for my two DEC 3000/600 machines which have similar symptoms.) Reminds me to revive my 3000/700, once I get the mechanical issues from mishandling in shipping sorted out. I hope it hasn't rotted from disuse -- it was alright, booted OSF/1 even, when I last powered it on ~10 years ago. I should have done it sooner. Having a physical box I might be able to help even more, check things, etc. The only difference is the clock rate I believe. Maciej From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 24 09:46:16 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 15:46:16 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Maciej > W. Rozycki > Sent: 24 April 2016 14:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > On Sat, 23 Apr 2016, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > (Congratulations on the progress made so far. Maybe there is hope yet > > for my two DEC 3000/600 machines which have similar symptoms.) > > Reminds me to revive my 3000/700, once I get the mechanical issues from > mishandling in shipping sorted out. I hope it hasn't rotted from disuse > -- it was alright, booted OSF/1 even, when I last powered it on ~10 years ago. > I should have done it sooner. Having a physical box I might be able to help > even more, check things, etc. The only difference is the clock rate I believe. > >From what I read the 3000 is a slightly earlier generation, not sure how close it will be. Sounds like a good idea to get it going anyway. The thing I am struggling with at the moment is getting sys$crmpsc_pfn_64 to work so I can use C to test the NVRAM. I seem to have a problem with the service writing back the address and length, but I don't yet know why. Regards Rob From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 24 11:41:57 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:41:57 -0700 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: > On Apr 24, 2016, at 6:33 AM, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > On Sat, 23 Apr 2016, Peter Coghlan wrote: > >> (Congratulations on the progress made so far. Maybe there is hope yet >> for my two DEC 3000/600 machines which have similar symptoms.) > > Reminds me to revive my 3000/700, once I get the mechanical issues from > mishandling in shipping sorted out. I hope it hasn't rotted from disuse > -- it was alright, booted OSF/1 even, when I last powered it on ~10 years > ago. I should have done it sooner. Having a physical box I might be able > to help even more, check things, etc. The only difference is the clock > rate I believe. > > Maciej This thread has been making me wonder about my two AS200?s, I?ve been meaning to revive the one with 768MB of RAM for VMS. I really should also check out my XP1000/667 as well, though I last booted it a year or so ago, when I needed to research a VMS problem for work. Zane From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 24 12:24:55 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:24:55 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <571D0167.9060502@ntlworld.com> On 24/04/16 15:46, Robert Jarratt wrote: > The thing I am struggling with at the moment is getting > sys$crmpsc_pfn_64 to work so I can use C to test the NVRAM. > I seem to have a problem with the service writing back the address and > length, but I don't yet know why. Regards Rob If you post a few lines of code, someone might spot the problem. I assume you are getting SS$_ACCVIO as return? So either return_va_64 or return_length_64 wasn't passed by reference (or wasn't long enough but you'd have to be really lucky to pass in a 32-bit value that sat at the very end of a page ...) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 24 14:00:12 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 20:00:12 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <571D0167.9060502@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <571D0167.9060502@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <003b01d19e5b$87c8ee80$975acb80$@ntlworld.com> > If you post a few lines of code, someone might spot the problem. I assume > you are getting SS$_ACCVIO as return? > So either return_va_64 or return_length_64 wasn't passed by reference (or > wasn't long enough but you'd have to be really lucky to pass in a 32-bit value > that sat at the very end of a page ...) > Thanks. I have since managed to find the problem with that. But I do have a problem that with a successful creation of the section I don't seem to be accessing the right location. This is the code now: long long int startPhysicalAddress = 0x100000000; long long int endPhysicalAddress = 0x100100000; long long int regionId; __align (quadword) void *address; __align(quadword) long long int length; unsigned int pfn = startPhysicalAddress >> PAGE_SIZE; unsigned int pagesToMap = ((endPhysicalAddress - startPhysicalAddress) >> PAGE_SIZE) + 1; unsigned int flags = SEC$M_EXPREG | SEC$M_PFNMAP | SEC$M_WRT; int status; regionId = VA$C_P2; status = sys$crmpsc_pfn_64(®ionId, pfn, pagesToMap, PSL$C_USER, flags, &address, &length, 0); PrintStatus(status); flashbusIndexRegister = (unsigned int *)address; flashbusDataRegister = (unsigned int *)((char *)address + (endPhysicalAddress - startPhysicalAddress)); If I try to write to the index register by dereferencing flashbusIndexRegister the machine dies. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 24 14:00:12 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 20:00:12 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <571D0167.9060502@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <571D0167.9060502@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <003b01d19e5b$87c8ee80$975acb80$@ntlworld.com> > If you post a few lines of code, someone might spot the problem. I assume > you are getting SS$_ACCVIO as return? > So either return_va_64 or return_length_64 wasn't passed by reference (or > wasn't long enough but you'd have to be really lucky to pass in a 32-bit value > that sat at the very end of a page ...) > Thanks. I have since managed to find the problem with that. But I do have a problem that with a successful creation of the section I don't seem to be accessing the right location. This is the code now: long long int startPhysicalAddress = 0x100000000; long long int endPhysicalAddress = 0x100100000; long long int regionId; __align (quadword) void *address; __align(quadword) long long int length; unsigned int pfn = startPhysicalAddress >> PAGE_SIZE; unsigned int pagesToMap = ((endPhysicalAddress - startPhysicalAddress) >> PAGE_SIZE) + 1; unsigned int flags = SEC$M_EXPREG | SEC$M_PFNMAP | SEC$M_WRT; int status; regionId = VA$C_P2; status = sys$crmpsc_pfn_64(®ionId, pfn, pagesToMap, PSL$C_USER, flags, &address, &length, 0); PrintStatus(status); flashbusIndexRegister = (unsigned int *)address; flashbusDataRegister = (unsigned int *)((char *)address + (endPhysicalAddress - startPhysicalAddress)); If I try to write to the index register by dereferencing flashbusIndexRegister the machine dies. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 24 14:01:35 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 20:01:35 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <003e01d19e5b$b922e760$2b68b620$@ntlworld.com> > This thread has been making me wonder about my two AS200?s, I?ve been > meaning to revive the one with 768MB of RAM for VMS. Nice! Mine only has 160MB. Still it works well, apart from the NVRAM problem. Regards Rob > I really should also > check out my XP1000/667 as well, though I last booted it a year or so ago, > when I needed to research a VMS problem for work. > > Zane > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 24 14:01:35 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 20:01:35 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <003e01d19e5b$b922e760$2b68b620$@ntlworld.com> > This thread has been making me wonder about my two AS200?s, I?ve been > meaning to revive the one with 768MB of RAM for VMS. Nice! Mine only has 160MB. Still it works well, apart from the NVRAM problem. Regards Rob > I really should also > check out my XP1000/667 as well, though I last booted it a year or so ago, > when I needed to research a VMS problem for work. > > Zane > From Mark at Misty.com Sun Apr 24 15:06:22 2016 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:06:22 -0400 Subject: pdp8/e problems Message-ID: <20160424200622.GA17731@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, Is there anyone with a good set of 8/e prints who could help me narrow down some troubles? My 8/e was working a few years ago, but now it's developed some problems. It seemed to work fine for about the first 2 minutes that I tried it, but then it developed these two symptoms: - Most of the time, upon power up, LOAD-ADDR clears all the random address lamps, but will not take an address, just all 0s. Occasionally when I power it up, LOAD-ADDR will permit me to load an address, and see it's contents as it should. I can then enter other addresses, hit LOAD-ADDR, and get consistent results looking around at random data in different memory addresses. - Regardless of whether it's in the broken load-addr state above or not, hitting DEP or EXAM just turns on the RUN lamp, and it's then stuck with RUN on, and non-responsive to any other front panel actions. This happens irrespective of the position of HALT. I then power-cycle it and it is back in either broken or working LOAD-ADDR mode as described above, usually broken. So far, the only M8330 prints I have found are extremely fuzzy, so I cannot make out the IC identifiers or match them up to the equally fuzzy schematic. By board-inspection I identified the 74S74 "run" flip-flop, and in fact I can un-stick the RUN state by briefly grounding CLR, but still cannot DEP or EXAM from the front panel -- it gets stuck back with RUN on if I hit either DEP or EXAM again. The power supply voltages are right-on. I've reseated and repositioned the boards. The connectors are very clean. Wiggling boards doesn't change any of the symptoms. Wiggling switches doesn't affect anything. This is a very clean 8/e. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 24 15:33:00 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:33:00 -0600 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: References: <20160423124130.529EF18C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <571BAB7D.10806@sydex.com> <8BB77581-589D-4BA7-96A6-3C8D569080E7@cs.ubc.ca> <571BFB5C.3070005@sydex.com> <571C020B.5010303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <571D2D7C.6060405@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/23/2016 8:32 PM, dwight wrote: > I recall going to Mike Quinn's and seeing barrels of RTL. > I wish now that I'd bought a bunch of them. > Most DTL can be replace by a TTL except a few with different > pinouts and the NAND with the diode expand pin. > My oldest equipment has a mix of DTL and TTL. > Dwight All I ever saw was the ads like this. https://www.flickr.com/photos/oskay/4455981283/ Ben From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sun Apr 24 17:00:25 2016 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 23:00:25 +0100 Subject: Finding classic computers in the UK Message-ID: <87r3duk6py.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> Hi all, Can anyone offer any advice on where to find classic computing equipment in the UK? I've been keeping an looking for a terminal such as vt220 for quite a while now on eBay without much luck. Maybe I just don't know the right people? Thanks, Aaron From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Apr 24 17:28:20 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:28:20 -0400 Subject: Finding classic computers in the UK In-Reply-To: <87r3duk6py.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> References: <87r3duk6py.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: <571D4884.1010501@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-24 6:00 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: > Hi all, > > Can anyone offer any advice on where to find classic computing equipment > in the UK? I've been keeping an looking for a terminal such as vt220 for > quite a while now on eBay without much luck. > > Maybe I just don't know the right people? > > Thanks, > > Aaron > Not what you want to hear, but ... it's also getting scarce everywhere. It's not 2000 any more. --Toby From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 17:36:53 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 23:36:53 +0100 Subject: Finding classic computers in the UK In-Reply-To: <87r3duk6py.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> References: <87r3duk6py.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: <000b01d19e79$cd321d20$67965760$@gmail.com> I think the pool of equipment in the UK is much smaller than the USA and VT220, and PDP-11 seem to be like hens teeth and much more expensive than in the USA. Some stuff I have picked up from local contacts, some from Vintage Computer Forums, there was a VT220 on there recently http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?52096-Dec-equipment-available but I think Rob may have nabbed that, Some from E-Bay, Some from RCM http://www.retrocomputermuseum.co.uk/forum/ It used to be possible to pick stuff up at Amateur Radio Rallies but that source seems to have largely dried up these days. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Aaron > Jackson > Sent: 24 April 2016 23:00 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Finding classic computers in the UK > > Hi all, > > Can anyone offer any advice on where to find classic computing equipment in > the UK? I've been keeping an looking for a terminal such as vt220 for quite a > while now on eBay without much luck. > > Maybe I just don't know the right people? > > Thanks, > > Aaron From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Apr 24 17:51:09 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 17:51:09 -0500 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <571D2D7C.6060405@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20160423124130.529EF18C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <571BAB7D.10806@sydex.com> <8BB77581-589D-4BA7-96A6-3C8D569080E7@cs.ubc.ca> <571BFB5C.3070005@sydex.com> <571C020B.5010303@pico-systems.com> <571D2D7C.6060405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <571D4DDD.8050705@pico-systems.com> On 04/24/2016 03:33 PM, ben wrote: > On 4/23/2016 8:32 PM, dwight wrote: >> I recall going to Mike Quinn's and seeing barrels of RTL. >> I wish now that I'd bought a bunch of them. >> Most DTL can be replace by a TTL except a few with different >> pinouts and the NAND with the diode expand pin. >> My oldest equipment has a mix of DTL and TTL. >> Dwight > > All I ever saw was the ads like this. > https://www.flickr.com/photos/oskay/4455981283/ > Wrong coast! Poly Paks was an East Coast outfit. Mike Quinn's was at the Oakland, CA airport. I first saw it in the early 1990's, I think, when it was still in the WW-II temp building on the airport property. You were literally walking on 3" of crunched circuit boards in the back rooms! There were large tables covered with circuit boards and small units, and the stuff that slid off the tables just became the floor covering. They had tons of boards out of computers and electronic equipment. The best stuff was kept in front in glass cases next to the cash register. Jon From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sun Apr 24 18:50:13 2016 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:50:13 +0100 Subject: Finding classic computers in the UK In-Reply-To: <000b01d19e79$cd321d20$67965760$@gmail.com> References: <87r3duk6py.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> <000b01d19e79$cd321d20$67965760$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87potek1my.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> Thanks for the links. I'll take a look. I probably stand more chance looking at my University. I was in the server room the other day clearing some space. On one of the shelves they had a VT220 connected up to an old Solaris box. Very stylish! Aaron Dave Wade writes: > I think the pool of equipment in the UK is much smaller than the USA and > VT220, and PDP-11 seem to be like hens teeth and much more expensive than in > the USA. > > Some stuff I have picked up from local contacts, some from Vintage Computer > Forums, there was a VT220 on there recently > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?52096-Dec-equipment-available > > but I think Rob may have nabbed that, Some from E-Bay, Some from RCM > > http://www.retrocomputermuseum.co.uk/forum/ > > It used to be possible to pick stuff up at Amateur Radio Rallies but that > source seems to have largely dried up these days. > > Dave > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Aaron >> Jackson >> Sent: 24 April 2016 23:00 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Finding classic computers in the UK >> >> Hi all, >> >> Can anyone offer any advice on where to find classic computing equipment > in >> the UK? I've been keeping an looking for a terminal such as vt220 for > quite a >> while now on eBay without much luck. >> >> Maybe I just don't know the right people? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Aaron -- From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 18:52:08 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:52:08 -0700 Subject: 4.2BSD TU58 distribution tape for VAX-11/750? In-Reply-To: References: <571C5D2A.60409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <571D5C28.4040100@gmail.com> On 4/23/16 11:47 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Hey all -- >> >> I can't seem to track down a copy of this TU58 on the 'net -- anyone have >> one squirreled away somewhere, or know where I should be looking? >> > ???? > > http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/4BSD/Distributions/4.2BSD/Per_Andersson/ > There doesn't seem to be a TU58 image hidden in there, unless you know something I don't. However, the 4.3-Quasijarus0a distribution does contain what I'm looking for. (And 4.3 will probably support more of the hardware I have anyway). http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/4BSD/Distributions/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a/cassette.Z - Josh From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Apr 24 19:54:08 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 20:54:08 -0400 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> <20160423160419.00D13A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <571D6AB0.1040505@compsys.to> >Kyle Owen wrote: >On a related note, a former DEC field engineer gave me this key (and >keychain). He thought it was a PDP-8 key at first, but it's not the >standard XX2247. It says KBM1100...any ideas what this might go to? > >http://imgur.com/a/4v8Hq > I have followed this thread, but have not been interested enough to keep any of the old posts. Just for curiosity, which Key codes were used for the PDP-11 systems? I used to have some PDP-11 racks for RL02 drives with a Qbus PDP-11/23 inside and I thought I remembered that XX2247 was used on them, but I would just like to know for sure. Actually, the more I think about it, just an Alan key was used. The above post suggests that XX2247 was used for the PDP-8. If so, was any specific key used for the PDP-11? Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Apr 24 19:56:15 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 20:56:15 -0400 Subject: Vt 103 / lsi 11/23 marketed as a desktop late 1980 In-Reply-To: References: <57198134.2000509@compsys.to> Message-ID: <571D6B2F.8070903@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >>Prior to that point, I had a VT103 with just 256 KB >>of memory and a DSD 880/8 which had an 8 GB hard >>drive / RX03 floppy drive in an external box. So >>there were other 3rd party solutions as well. >> >8MB? But otherwise, also nice. > > DSD (Data Systems Design) produced both the DSD 880/8 and the DSD 880/30. The DSD 880/8 hardware used an 8 MB MFM drive and included changes to the DL(X).SYS device drivers to pretend that the DL drive was an RL02, but with just 8 MB. The DSD 880/30 used a 30 MB MFM drive to emulate 3 * RL02 drives which, of course, could not be removed. Both versions had a single RX03 floppy drive - used 8" RX01 / RX02 type media, but with two heads, one for each side of the floppy media. When the index hole is in the double-sided location (about an inch from the single-sided location), the DY(X).SYS device driver tests a bit in the CSR that double-sided operations should be enabled. For V04.00 of RT-11 in 1980, DEC included extra code in DY.MAC which supported the use of an RX03 (double-sided) floppy drive, potentially with the expectation that such a drive would eventually be sold by DEC. Unfortunately, that code included a bug suggesting that DEC never actually tested the code. And by 1983 when V05.00 of RT-11 was released, that extra code which supported double-sided operations had been removed. So even if DEC had been considering the sale of an RX03 floppy drive, it seems that the decision was reversed or abandoned. In order to avoid having to punch the extra two holes in the jacket of the media to enable double-sided operations, I added a double-pole, double-throw switch into the circuit for the two detectors which determine if a single-sided or double-sided media is present. In the normal position, a single-sided media is used as single-sided. In the reverse position, a single-sided media is used as double-sided media. Of more than a dozen different brands of 8" single-sided floppy media, all but one brand supported being able to be LLFed (Low Level Formatted) by the DSD 880/30 internal firmware as double-sided. >I have a VT103 (w/TU58)... I did set up a simple 11/23 in it once, but >I should see what I can do with a SCSI card... > If you are adding just a dual SCSI card, there is probably enough power to also support an old 3.5" 50-pin SCSI drive. There will be more than enough room to place the drive at the bottom of the VT103. I would also make the SCSI cable long enough to support adding additional SCSI drives (daisy chain) outside the VT103 so you can backup the internal SCSI drive whenever you wish without having to get inside the VT103 each time. For my own VT103, I also added a switch and a power plug to allow me to power the internal hard drive (SCSI or otherwise) from an external PC power supply so that the VT103 power supply would have a reduced load, especially at power-up when the load is highest. Jerome Fine From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 20:06:42 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 13:06:42 +1200 Subject: 4.2BSD TU58 distribution tape for VAX-11/750? In-Reply-To: <571D5C28.4040100@gmail.com> References: <571C5D2A.60409@gmail.com> <571D5C28.4040100@gmail.com> Message-ID: Oh... I guess that will be equally good for my 11/730 :-) On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 4/23/16 11:47 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> >> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> Hey all -- >>> >>> I can't seem to track down a copy of this TU58 on the 'net -- anyone have >>> one squirreled away somewhere, or know where I should be looking? >>> >> ???? >> >> http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/4BSD/Distributions/4.2BSD/Per_Andersson/ >> > There doesn't seem to be a TU58 image hidden in there, unless you know > something I don't. > > However, the 4.3-Quasijarus0a distribution does contain what I'm looking > for. (And 4.3 will probably support more of the hardware I have anyway). > > http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/4BSD/Distributions/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a/cassette.Z > > - Josh -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From isking at uw.edu Sun Apr 24 21:18:09 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 19:18:09 -0700 Subject: pdp8/e problems In-Reply-To: <20160424200622.GA17731@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20160424200622.GA17731@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Mark G Thomas wrote: > Hi, > > So far, the only M8330 prints I have found are extremely fuzzy, so I cannot > make out the IC identifiers or match them up to the equally fuzzy > schematic. > You do know about bitsavers.org, yes? Al has lots of very clear scans of DEC prints. Keep in mind, though, that these are hand drawn prints - sometimes you have to zoom to 150% or 200% to make out particular letters/digits. > By board-inspection I identified the 74S74 "run" flip-flop, and in fact I > can un-stick the RUN state by briefly grounding CLR, but still cannot > DEP or EXAM from the front panel -- it gets stuck back with RUN on if I > hit either DEP or EXAM again. > > The power supply voltages are right-on. I've reseated and repositioned > the boards. The connectors are very clean. Wiggling boards doesn't change > any of the symptoms. Wiggling switches doesn't affect anything. This is > a very clean 8/e. > Check not only your voltages, but your power waveforms. Also, I remember having an issue involving a race condition with the DC OK line, which is not often considered when one is checking power supply voltages. If the +5 rail isn't solid *before* DC OK comes up, this will lock up things. Have fun -- Ian K7PDP -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 24 21:51:18 2016 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 02:51:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Harris RTX-2000 - Re: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1211813782.1535435.1461552678466.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Thursday, April 21, 2016 9:22 AM, "Tapley, Mark" wrote: On Apr 20, 2016, at 9:46 PM, dwight wrote: > The RTX-2000 was an of shoot of the NC4000. Even at 10MHz, they could > out compute a 40MHz 80386. > One execution per clock cycle plus possibly using 3 16 bit busses in a single > cycle. > A 4MHz NC4000 could sort 1K 16 bit values in 19.7 milliseconds. > Dwight > > ?. > On 2016-04-20 1:28 PM, dwight wrote: >> There was a Harris RTX-2000 based accelerator card around >> the 80386 time period. > > ...Interestingly: "The RTX 2000 is specifically designed to execute the > Forth language" > (https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/sec4_5.html) > > --Toby (top-post ?. bottom-post ?. AAagh!) :-) The Harris RTX-2010, in a rad-hard version, was for years the CPU of choice for spacecraft science instruments from Johns Hopkins APL. Those chips are *all* *over* the solar system! One of APL's lead SW engineers wrote one of the most widely-used Forth test suites, partly for that reason. It?s a pretty nice chip, for multiple reasons. ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? - Mark This chip was also used in some industrial equipment. ?In school, I worked with an MRI system that used this chip for the controller. ?It was programmed in a C-like language using a C-to-FORTH compiler. ?I used to have a manual for the RTX-2000, but sent it off to someone on comp.lang.forth to scan. ?I wonder if it ever got scanned and placed on the net. Come to think of it, I think I have one of these chips lying around, but no software. ?I think MPE still supports this chip with their forth compiler system, but it's expensive. ? I wonder if anyone has anything non-commercial that would run on it. Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 24 22:38:48 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 04:38:48 +0100 Subject: Finding classic computers in the UK In-Reply-To: <87potek1my.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> References: <87r3duk6py.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> <000b01d19e79$cd321d20$67965760$@gmail.com> <87potek1my.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: <005101d19ea3$fa72f230$ef58d690$@ntlworld.com> Dave is right, I have bagged the VT220 and will be collecting it soon. They are indeed quite hard to come by. Perhaps you could offer the university a swap for their VT220? I mean a PC with putty on it might suit their needs just as well. You don't say where you are in the UK. I only ask because occasionally I end up with too much stuff and look to pass things on (free if I got them for free). Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Aaron > Jackson > Sent: 25 April 2016 00:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Finding classic computers in the UK > > Thanks for the links. I'll take a look. I probably stand more chance looking at > my University. I was in the server room the other day clearing some space. > On one of the shelves they had a VT220 connected up to an old Solaris box. > Very stylish! > > Aaron > > Dave Wade writes: > > I think the pool of equipment in the UK is much smaller than the USA > > and VT220, and PDP-11 seem to be like hens teeth and much more > > expensive than in the USA. > > > > Some stuff I have picked up from local contacts, some from Vintage > > Computer Forums, there was a VT220 on there recently > > > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?52096-Dec-equipment- > availabl > > e > > > > but I think Rob may have nabbed that, Some from E-Bay, Some from RCM > > > > http://www.retrocomputermuseum.co.uk/forum/ > > > > It used to be possible to pick stuff up at Amateur Radio Rallies but > > that source seems to have largely dried up these days. > > > > Dave > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> Aaron Jackson > >> Sent: 24 April 2016 23:00 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > >> Subject: Finding classic computers in the UK > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> Can anyone offer any advice on where to find classic computing > >> equipment > > in > >> the UK? I've been keeping an looking for a terminal such as vt220 for > > quite a > >> while now on eBay without much luck. > >> > >> Maybe I just don't know the right people? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Aaron > > > -- From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 23:39:09 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 21:39:09 -0700 Subject: Have VAX 82x0/83x0 console floppies been archived? In-Reply-To: <20160417083614.GA28778@Update.UU.SE> References: <57130F82.2050700@gmail.com> <20160417083614.GA28778@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <571D9F6D.6010204@gmail.com> I've archived all the unique floppies that came with my 8350 (there were many duplicates), which came to 28 disks. I've put images up at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/VAX8200/ Images are provided in the raw SCP (SuperCard Pro) format and IMD (ImageDisk) format. It's pretty trivial to convert these into whatever format you desire (I suggest using the HxC floppy emulator tools here: http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/index.html#download) These should work on any of the 8200/8300-series VAXen. A text file detailing the label of the disk is included in each archive. I have not tested these disks yet (the 8350 is a future project), if you run into any issues I can try redumping the problematic disks. - Josh On 4/17/16 1:36 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Oh, that would be great to have. I have a 8354 (the last 4 is processor > count I think). Mine is in an unknown state. > > I have some floppies, but not 40. > > /P > > On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 09:22:26PM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: >> I also picked up a VAX 8350 today (it was a productive afternoon). It came >> with a box of maybe 40 RX50 floppies for console and various diagnostics. A >> cursory Internet search didn't reveal whether these have been archived >> already. >> >> If they haven't already been archived somewhere, I'll take care of archiving >> them later this week... >> >> Thanks, >> Josh From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 24 13:03:50 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 19:03:50 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <003801d19e53$a82694f0$f873bed0$@ntlworld.com> > > > From what I read the 3000 is a slightly earlier generation, not sure how close > it will be. Sounds like a good idea to get it going anyway. The thing I am > struggling with at the moment is getting sys$crmpsc_pfn_64 to work so I can > use C to test the NVRAM. I seem to have a problem with the service writing > back the address and length, but I don't yet know why. > My program to test the NVRAM is not going well. When I try to write to what I think is the flashbus index register, I kill the machine stone dead. I'd just like to validate my approach, see if it makes sense: The docs says the index register is at 0x1.0000.0000 (physical I assume). On the assumption that the Alpha has an 8K page size that means the Page Frame Number for the physical page will be at 0x8.0000. So I am using sys$crmpsc_pfn_64 to start at that PFN. Correct? When I get the address back from the system, that is actually the address of the index register, because it is right at the start of page, so that is the address I access from my code. I was also unsure which region to use and I have tried P0 and P2, P2 seemed to not crash the machine but would give me ACCVIO instead, except that in my latest test P2 also crashed the machine. I am also specifying USER mode. I can post the code if that helps. Any ideas where I am going wrong here? Thanks Rob From macro at linux-mips.org Sun Apr 24 16:38:45 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 22:38:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Reminds me to revive my 3000/700, once I get the mechanical issues from > > mishandling in shipping sorted out. I hope it hasn't rotted from disuse > > -- it was alright, booted OSF/1 even, when I last powered it on ~10 years > ago. > > I should have done it sooner. Having a physical box I might be able to > help > > even more, check things, etc. The only difference is the clock rate I > believe. > > > > > >From what I read the 3000 is a slightly earlier generation, not sure how > close it will be. Sounds like a good idea to get it going anyway. It's much different, being a TURBOchannel box, and the line is the only one of the smaller Alphas not supported under Linux. My grand plan was to get it going (based on Peter De Schrijver's patches he once posted -- once as in "12 years ago"), along VAXstation 4000, with Linux under unified TURBOchannel support. The latter part has since been done and merged with the official code base, converting code previously tightly coupled with DECstation 5000 support. It later proved functional with the VAXstation, but the VAX port has never made it. Various life distractions made me never complete this effort, but I still hope to get there sometime, while hardware survives. > The thing > I am struggling with at the moment is getting sys$crmpsc_pfn_64 to work so I > can use C to test the NVRAM. I seem to have a problem with the service > writing back the address and length, but I don't yet know why. That's beyond my abilities I'm afraid, can't help. Maciej From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Mon Apr 25 03:30:00 2016 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:30:00 +0100 Subject: Finding classic computers in the UK In-Reply-To: <005101d19ea3$fa72f230$ef58d690$@ntlworld.com> References: <87r3duk6py.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> <000b01d19e79$cd321d20$67965760$@gmail.com> <87potek1my.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> <005101d19ea3$fa72f230$ef58d690$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <877ffmum47.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> I hope you enjoy the VT220. I would have been surprised if that was still unclaimed by now. Unfortunately for me, I believe the sysadmin here is quite attached to some of the older gear lying around. I've noticed a few 9 track tapes too. I'm very central, in Nottingham, so travelling isn't too much of a problem for me. I will keep an eye out for your posts here. :) Thanks, Aaron Robert Jarratt writes: > Dave is right, I have bagged the VT220 and will be collecting it soon. They > are indeed quite hard to come by. Perhaps you could offer the university a > swap for their VT220? I mean a PC with putty on it might suit their needs > just as well. > > You don't say where you are in the UK. I only ask because occasionally I end > up with too much stuff and look to pass things on (free if I got them for > free). > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Aaron >> Jackson >> Sent: 25 April 2016 00:50 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Finding classic computers in the UK >> >> Thanks for the links. I'll take a look. I probably stand more chance > looking at >> my University. I was in the server room the other day clearing some space. >> On one of the shelves they had a VT220 connected up to an old Solaris box. >> Very stylish! >> >> Aaron >> >> Dave Wade writes: >> > I think the pool of equipment in the UK is much smaller than the USA >> > and VT220, and PDP-11 seem to be like hens teeth and much more >> > expensive than in the USA. >> > >> > Some stuff I have picked up from local contacts, some from Vintage >> > Computer Forums, there was a VT220 on there recently >> > >> > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?52096-Dec-equipment- >> availabl >> > e >> > >> > but I think Rob may have nabbed that, Some from E-Bay, Some from RCM >> > >> > http://www.retrocomputermuseum.co.uk/forum/ >> > >> > It used to be possible to pick stuff up at Amateur Radio Rallies but >> > that source seems to have largely dried up these days. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >> >> Aaron Jackson >> >> Sent: 24 April 2016 23:00 >> >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> > >> >> Subject: Finding classic computers in the UK >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> Can anyone offer any advice on where to find classic computing >> >> equipment >> > in >> >> the UK? I've been keeping an looking for a terminal such as vt220 for >> > quite a >> >> while now on eBay without much luck. >> >> >> >> Maybe I just don't know the right people? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Aaron >> >> >> -- From jon at jonworld.com Mon Apr 25 03:32:16 2016 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:32:16 +0200 Subject: Finding classic computers in the UK In-Reply-To: <877ffmum47.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> References: <87r3duk6py.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> <000b01d19e79$cd321d20$67965760$@gmail.com> <87potek1my.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> <005101d19ea3$fa72f230$ef58d690$@ntlworld.com> <877ffmum47.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: > >> Thanks for the links. I'll take a look. I probably stand more chance > > looking at > >> my University. I was in the server room the other day clearing some > space. > >> On one of the shelves they had a VT220 connected up to an old Solaris > box. > >> Very stylish! > I may be interested in the old Solaris box ;) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 25 06:08:52 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:08:52 +0000 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: <571D6AB0.1040505@compsys.to> References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> <20160423160419.00D13A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> , <571D6AB0.1040505@compsys.to> Message-ID: > Just for curiosity, which Key codes were used for the PDP-11 > systems? I used to have some PDP-11 racks for RL02 drives > with a Qbus PDP-11/23 inside and I thought I remembered that > XX2247 was used on them, but I would just like to know for sure. > Actually, the more I think about it, just an Alan key was used. > > The above post suggests that XX2247 was used for the PDP-8. > If so, was any specific key used for the PDP-11? As far as I know DEC never used a key lock on their cabinet doors. You might well need an allen key to remove the back of the rack cabinet, for example. I have come across 3 keys for console switches on DEC machines : The XX2247 which is used on (at least) PDP8's and PDP11's The later plastic tubular key with no pins in the lock. This is used on later machines, VAXen, DECSA, etc. The XX2247 will fit this switch, but not the reverse. A yale-type key used on the PDP11/05 and PDP11/10. -tony From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Apr 25 07:05:45 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 14:05:45 +0200 Subject: Have VAX 82x0/83x0 console floppies been archived? In-Reply-To: <571D9F6D.6010204@gmail.com> References: <57130F82.2050700@gmail.com> <20160417083614.GA28778@Update.UU.SE> <571D9F6D.6010204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160425120545.GC28625@Update.UU.SE> Thank you! On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 09:39:09PM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: > I've archived all the unique floppies that came with my 8350 (there were > many duplicates), which came to 28 disks. I've put images up at: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/VAX8200/ > > Images are provided in the raw SCP (SuperCard Pro) format and IMD > (ImageDisk) format. It's pretty trivial to convert these into whatever > format you desire (I suggest using the HxC floppy emulator tools here: > http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/index.html#download) > > These should work on any of the 8200/8300-series VAXen. A text file > detailing the label of the disk is included in each archive. I have not > tested these disks yet (the 8350 is a future project), if you run into any > issues I can try redumping the problematic disks. > > - Josh > > On 4/17/16 1:36 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >Oh, that would be great to have. I have a 8354 (the last 4 is processor > >count I think). Mine is in an unknown state. > > > >I have some floppies, but not 40. > > > >/P > > > >On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 09:22:26PM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: > >>I also picked up a VAX 8350 today (it was a productive afternoon). It came > >>with a box of maybe 40 RX50 floppies for console and various diagnostics. A > >>cursory Internet search didn't reveal whether these have been archived > >>already. > >> > >>If they haven't already been archived somewhere, I'll take care of archiving > >>them later this week... > >> > >>Thanks, > >>Josh > From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 25 07:28:00 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:28:00 -0500 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> <20160423160419.00D13A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> , <571D6AB0.1040505@compsys.to> Message-ID: <009501d19eed$e7cbdcb0$b7639610$@classiccmp.org> Tony wrote... ---- As far as I know DEC never used a key lock on their cabinet doors. You might well need an allen key to remove the back of the rack cabinet, for example. ---- All the H967's I've seen had non-ace keys for the back doors. Most (if not all, can't remember) of my H960's use non-ace keys for the back doors. All the later DEC cabinets (beige, corp cabs, vax, etc.) seemed to use "Fastenal" twist locks that used a hex/allen key. The above is not meant to be definitive, just my own experience. J From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 25 08:35:55 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:35:55 -0400 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:28:00 -0500.) <009501d19eed$e7cbdcb0$b7639610$@classiccmp.org> References: <009501d19eed$e7cbdcb0$b7639610$@classiccmp.org> <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> <20160423160419.00D13A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> , <571D6AB0.1040505@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20160425133555.CFC62A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > All the H967's I've seen had non-ace keys for the back doors. Most > (if not all, can't remember) of my H960's use non-ace keys for the > back doors. I believe the common back door key is a National C415A. Cut 12343 b-t on an Ilco 1069N blank. These are also used in electrical panels, so are trivially available on eBay and such. Haven't managed to id the 11/05 key yet. De From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 08:47:12 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:47:12 +0200 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 22 April 2016 at 19:51, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Fri, 22 Apr 2016, Liam Proven wrote: >> GEM ran on MS-DOS, DR's own DOS+ (a forerunner of the later DR-DOS) > > It still runs under FreeDOS, too. I've puttered around with it several > times in that environment. Yes indeed. In fact the first time I installed FreeDOS I was *very* surprised to find my name in the credits. I debugged some batch files used in installing the GEM component. >> ... and on the Atari ST's TOS, derived in part from CP/M-68K. > > Ah ha! I always wondered about that relationship. So, the ST TOS GEM *was* > in fact related to the same version that ran on DOS. Oh yes. Same environment. ST GEM was derived from GEM 1; PC GEM from GEM 2, crippled post-lawsuit. Then they diverged. FreeGEM attempted to merge them again. > I always wondered if it > was just similar naming, copy-cat syndrome, or if they were a licensee. Oh no no. Same codebase. > Now > I know! I never had an ST, unfortunately. I just drooled on them. They can be quite cheap now, and the Aranym environment gives you something of the feel of the later versions. It's not exactly an emulator, more a sort of compatibility environment that enhances the "emulated" machine as much as it can using modern PC hardware. http://aranym.org/ And the ST GEM OS was so modular, different 3rd parties cloned every components, separately. Some commercially, some as FOSS. The Aranym team basically put together a sort of "distribution" of as many FOSS components as they could, to assemble a nearly-complete OS, then wrote the few remaining bits to glue it together into a functional whole. So, finally, after the death of the ST and its clones, there was an all-FOSS OS for it. It's pretty good, too. It's called AFROS, Atari Free OS, and it's included as part of Aranym. I longed to see a merger of FreeGEM and Aranym, but it was never to be. The history of GEM and TOS is complex. Official Atari TOS+GEM evolved into TOS 4, which included the FOSS Mint multitasking later, which isn't much like the original ROM version of the first STs. The underlying TOS OS is not quite like anything else. AIUI, CP/M-68K was a real, if rarely-seen, OS. However, it proved inadequate to support GEM, so it was discarded. A new kernel was written using some of the tech from what was later to become DR-DOS on the PC -- something less like CP/M and more like MS-DOS: directories, separated with backslashes; FAT format disks; multiple executable types, 8.3 filenames, all that stuff. None of the command-line elements of CP/M or any DR DOS-like OS were retained -- the kernel booted the GUI directly and there was no command line, like on the Mac. This is called GEMDOS and AIUI it inherits from both the CP/M-68K heritage and from DR's x86 DOS-compatible OSes. >> The only BBC copro that could run GEM, AFAIAA, was the BBC Master 512 with >> the Intel 80186. > > Whoa. That sounds bizarre but cool. It was, in a limited way. Acorn's series of machines are not well-known in the US, AFAICT, and that's a shame. They were technically interesting, more so IMHO than the Apple II and III, TRS-80 series etc. The original Acorns were 6502-based, but with good graphics and sound, a plethora of ports, a clear separation between OS, BASIC and add-on ROMs such as the various DOSes, etc. The BASIC was, I'd argue strongly, *the* best 8-bit BASIC ever: named procedures, local variables, recursion, inline assembler, etc. Also the fastest BASIC interpreter ever, and quicker than some compiled BASICs. Acorn built for quality, not price; the machines were aimed at the educational market, which wasn't so price-sensitive, a model that NeXT emulated. Home users were welcome to buy them & there was one (unsuccessful) home model, but they were unashamedly expensive and thus uncompromised. The only conceptual compromise in the original BBC Micro was that there was provision for ROM bank switching, but not RAM. The 64kB memory map was 50:50 split ROM and RAM. You could switch ROMs, or put RAM in their place, but not have more than 64kB. This meant that the high-end machine had only 32kB RAM, and high-res graphics modes could take 21kB or so, leaving little space for code -- unless it was in ROM, of course. The later BBC+ and BBC Master series fixed that. They also allowed ROM cartridges, rather than bare chips inserted in sockets on the main board, and a numeric keypad. Acorn looked at the 16-bit machines in the mid-80s, mostly powered by Motorola 68000s of course, and decided they weren't good enough and that the tiny UK company could do better. So it did. It designed the ARM chip in-house, then launched its own range of ARM-powered machines, with an OS based on the 6502 range's. Although limited, this is still around today and can be run natively on a Raspberry Pi: https://www.riscosopen.org/content/ It's very idiosyncratic -- both the filesystem, the command line and the default editor are totally unlike anything else. The file-listing command is CAT, the directory separator is a full stop (i.e. a period), while the root directory is called $. The editor is a very odd dual-cursor thing. It's fascinating, totally unrelated to the entire DEC/MS-DOS family and to the entire Unix family. There is literally and exactly nothing else even slightly like it. It was the first GUI OS to implement features that are now universal across GUIs: anti-aliased font rendering, full-window dragging and resizing (as opposed to an outline), and significantly, the first graphical desktop to implement a taskbar, before NeXTstep and long before Windows 95. It supports USB, can access the Internet and WWW. There are free clients for chat, email, FTP, the WWW etc. and a modest range of free productivity tools, although most things are commercial. But there's no proper inter-process memory protection, GUI multitasking is cooperative, and consequently it's not amazingly stable in use. It does support pre-emptive multitasking, but via the text editor, bizarrely enough, and only of text-mode apps. There was also a pre-emptive multitasking version of the desktop, but it wasn't very compatible, didn't catch on and is not included in current versions. But saying all that, it's very interesting, influential, shared-source, entirely usable today, and it runs superbly on the ?25 Raspberry Pi, so there is little excuse not to try it. There's also a FOSS emulator which can run the modern freeware version: http://www.marutan.net/rpcemu/ For users of the old hardware, there's a much more polished commercial emulator for Windows and Mac which has its own, proprietary fork of the OS: http://www.virtualacorn.co.uk/index2.htm There's an interesting parallel with the Amiga. Both Acorn and Commodore had ambitious plans for a modern multitasking OS which they both referred to as Unix-like. In both cases, the project didn't deliver and the ground-breaking, industry-redefiningly capable hardware was instead shipped with much less ambitious OSes, both of which nonetheless were widely-loved and both of which still survive in the form of multiple, actively-maintained forks, today, 30 years later -- even though Unix in fact caught up and long surpassed these 1980s oddballs. AmigaOS, based in part on the academic research OS Tripos, has 3 modern forks: the FOSS AROS, on x86, and the proprietary MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 on PowerPC. Acorn RISC OS, based in part on Acorn MOS for the 8-bit BBC Micro, has 2 contemporary forks: RISC OS 5, owned by Castle Technology but developed by RISC OS Open, shared source rather than FOSS, running on Raspberry Pi, BeagleBoard and some other ARM boards, plus some old hardware and RPC Emu; and RISC OS 4, now owned by the company behind VirtualAcorn, run by an ARM engineer who apparently made good money selling software ARM emulators for x86 to ARM holdings. Commodore and the Amiga are both long dead and gone, but the name periodically changes hands and reappears on various bits of modern hardware. Acorn is also long dead, but its scion ARM Holdings designs the world's most popular series of CPUs, totally dominates the handheld sector, and outsells Intel, AMD & all other x86 vendors put together something like tenfold. Funny how things turn out. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ethan at 757.org Mon Apr 25 09:15:23 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:15:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Finding classic computers in the UK In-Reply-To: <005101d19ea3$fa72f230$ef58d690$@ntlworld.com> References: <87r3duk6py.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> <000b01d19e79$cd321d20$67965760$@gmail.com> <87potek1my.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> <005101d19ea3$fa72f230$ef58d690$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > Dave is right, I have bagged the VT220 and will be collecting it soon. They > are indeed quite hard to come by. Perhaps you could offer the university a > swap for their VT220? I mean a PC with putty on it might suit their needs > just as well. > You don't say where you are in the UK. I only ask because occasionally I end > up with too much stuff and look to pass things on (free if I got them for > free). > Regards > Rob How hard is it to get things like Sinclair Spectrum, BBC Micro and Amdstrad CPC type computers? - Ethan (USA) -- Ethan O'Toole From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Apr 25 09:19:40 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:19:40 -0400 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: <571D6AB0.1040505@compsys.to> References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> <20160423160419.00D13A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <571D6AB0.1040505@compsys.to> Message-ID: <0E1261D4-67BE-407C-AE98-8E6FB14F5633@comcast.net> > On Apr 24, 2016, at 8:54 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > >Kyle Owen wrote: > >> On a related note, a former DEC field engineer gave me this key (and >> keychain). He thought it was a PDP-8 key at first, but it's not the >> standard XX2247. It says KBM1100...any ideas what this might go to? >> >> http://imgur.com/a/4v8Hq >> > I have followed this thread, but have not been interested enough > to keep any of the old posts. > ... > The above post suggests that XX2247 was used for the PDP-8. > If so, was any specific key used for the PDP-11? XX2247 was the standard key for the PDP-11. And the VAXen, at least until DEC switched to plastic blank "keys" instead. paul From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Mon Apr 25 09:20:33 2016 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:20:33 +0100 Subject: Finding classic computers in the UK In-Reply-To: References: <87r3duk6py.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> <000b01d19e79$cd321d20$67965760$@gmail.com> <87potek1my.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> <005101d19ea3$fa72f230$ef58d690$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <87r3dtdb2m.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> I can't speak for Sinclair and Amstrad, but aquiring BBC Micros in the UK is incredibly easy. There are many of them and a huge number of them are still working flawlessly. Roughly ten years ago I was secondary school. I noticed a BBC Master 128 had disappeared from one of the maths classrooms. I immediately went to ask the IT guys what happened to it. They told me they were getting rid of them so I asked for one. Still working to this day, dual 5.25" disk. Only issue is the CMOS battery, which I have not bothered to replace. There are usually quite a few on eBay for an acceptable price. Aaron ethan at 757.org writes: >> Dave is right, I have bagged the VT220 and will be collecting it soon. They >> are indeed quite hard to come by. Perhaps you could offer the university a >> swap for their VT220? I mean a PC with putty on it might suit their needs >> just as well. >> You don't say where you are in the UK. I only ask because occasionally I end >> up with too much stuff and look to pass things on (free if I got them for >> free). >> Regards >> Rob > > How hard is it to get things like Sinclair Spectrum, BBC Micro and > Amdstrad CPC type computers? > > - Ethan (USA) > > > -- > Ethan O'Toole From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 09:25:40 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:25:40 +0100 Subject: Finding classic computers in the UK In-Reply-To: References: <87r3duk6py.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> <000b01d19e79$cd321d20$67965760$@gmail.com> <87potek1my.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> <005101d19ea3$fa72f230$ef58d690$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 25 April 2016 at 15:15, wrote: > > How hard is it to get things like Sinclair Spectrum, BBC Micro and > Amdstrad CPC type computers? Surprisingly difficult for me even though I'm in the seat of UK computing in Cambridgeshire. Quite a few Tangerine computers were built literally just along the road from my house too. On the local freecycle list if a machine like that appears it's snapped up in seconds and I can't even get dead ones for projects. On the flip side people occasionally empty their sheds... -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 09:38:34 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:38:34 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 21 April 2016 at 18:11, Swift Griggs wrote: > I'm not saying everything was perfect in the 80's or 90's. I mean, some > CS professors in the 90's were teaching Oberon, LISP dialects, or > Smalltalk. Then if you ever uttered the (completely true) phrase "not > commercially viable" they'd launch into some diatribe about how these > languages taught you some kind of special spiritual meta-programming > that'd ultimately path the path for you to become some kind of code-God > (like them?). Wow. That is really remarkably narrow-minded and I'm not even slightly surprised that you've had some strongly negative reactions already. While I personally find Lisp to be unreadable, nonetheless, it's enabled people to do some wholly remarkable things, and it certainly seems to deserve all the plaudits it has received. http://www.paulgraham.com/quotes.html http://lispers.org/ Oberon "not commercially viable"? That's a remarkably foolish, short-sighted and ignorant thing to say. Oberon is what Pascal grew up into, and I think a million-odd Delphi programmers would have very strong words with you that the Pascal family isn't commercially viable. And you do know what Apple MacOS was originally written in, don't you? I wrote about Oberon myself recently: -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 09:41:51 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:41:51 +0100 Subject: Finding classic computers in the UK In-Reply-To: <87r3dtdb2m.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> References: <87r3duk6py.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> <000b01d19e79$cd321d20$67965760$@gmail.com> <87potek1my.fsf@walrus.aaronsplace.co.uk> <005101d19ea3$fa72f230$ef58d690$@ntlworld.com> <87r3dtdb2m.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: <03e401d19f00$9b35b660$d1a12320$@gmail.com> Whilst I haven't tried bidding I have watched and a working BBC with Disk Drives might set you back $300 or so. I think this is expensive. Dave P.S. I have a non-working one in my loft. Whilst it would be nice to have it fixed, I think its low on my list. I have replaced the PSU caps but it still has the "I am not going to reset" bug and sits and whines. It has many extra ROMS but no floppy drive. Therefore if any one is interested let me know off list. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Aaron > Jackson > Sent: 25 April 2016 15:21 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Finding classic computers in the UK > > I can't speak for Sinclair and Amstrad, but aquiring BBC Micros in the UK is > incredibly easy. There are many of them and a huge number of them are still > working flawlessly. > > Roughly ten years ago I was secondary school. I noticed a BBC Master > 128 had disappeared from one of the maths classrooms. I immediately went to > ask the IT guys what happened to it. They told me they were getting rid of them > so I asked for one. Still working to this day, dual 5.25" > disk. Only issue is the CMOS battery, which I have not bothered to replace. > > There are usually quite a few on eBay for an acceptable price. > > Aaron > > > > ethan at 757.org writes: > > >> Dave is right, I have bagged the VT220 and will be collecting it > >> soon. They are indeed quite hard to come by. Perhaps you could offer > >> the university a swap for their VT220? I mean a PC with putty on it > >> might suit their needs just as well. > >> You don't say where you are in the UK. I only ask because > >> occasionally I end up with too much stuff and look to pass things on > >> (free if I got them for free). > >> Regards > >> Rob > > > > How hard is it to get things like Sinclair Spectrum, BBC Micro and > > Amdstrad CPC type computers? > > > > - Ethan (USA) > > > > > > -- > > Ethan O'Toole From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Apr 25 09:54:37 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) Message-ID: <20160425145437.8C41518C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dennis Boone > Haven't managed to id the 11/05 key yet. I have an original (which was used to make a ton of replicas for people a while back); it says "Chicago Lock Co" and "GRB 2". No idea what the latter means. The copies were made with Hillman Y11 and FR4 blanks (both work, but one has to be trimmed a bit, length-wise). Noel From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 10:02:46 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:02:46 +0200 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 25 April 2016 at 15:47, Liam Proven wrote: > Acorn looked at the 16-bit machines in the mid-80s, mostly powered by > Motorola 68000s of course, and decided they weren't good enough and > that the tiny UK company could do better. So it did. I meant to develop this point slightly, and did in a blog post, here: http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/48593.html But in the meantime, it kept the 6502-based, resolutely-8-bit BBC Micro line alive with updates and new models, including ROM-based terminals and machines with a range of built-in coprocessors: faster 6502-family chips for power users, Z80s for CP/M, Intel's 80186 for kinda-sorta PC compatibility, the NatSemi 32016 with PANOS for ill-defined scientific computing, and finally, an ARM copro before the new ARM-based machines were ready. I tweeted the blog post and it emerges that a friend of mine was an Acorn engineer, which I didn't know, and was involved in a machine that I mention in passing there, but was actually far more significant. What I dismissed as one of the ROM-based terminals was the Acorn Communicator, a single-box machine (i.e. main board in the keyboard, like an Amiga 500 or original 520 ST.) This, remarkably, ran a 65816, as used in the Apple ][GS (tragically underclocked to just 2.8MHz so as not to outperform the Mac) and the SuperCPU cartridge for the C64. It was Acorn's only ever native 16-bit machine -- as it made the leap directly from 8-bit to full 32-bit -- and has ports of the 8-bit OS, word-processor, terminal emulator and more, all in ROM. I never previously realised. http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Computers/Communicator.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Communicator I had previously thought it was essentially the Acorn ABC Personal Assistant in a different case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Business_Computer#ABC_Personal_Assistant The Communicator is a *far* more interesting beast, with no 6502 or copro -- it's a native 16-bit machine in the BBC family. Remarkable. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 10:05:34 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:05:34 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <20160423032944.GA32694@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160423032944.GA32694@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > One major problem with adding a faster CPU to an SGI is the MIPS chip > itself---code compiled for one MIPS CPU (say, the R3000) won't run on > another MIPS CPU (say, the R4400) due to the differences in the pipeline. Oh and you are so totally correct. I forgot about that, but yes, it's all coming back now. I remember reading about that in some MIPSPro C documentation. Well darn. There goes my dream :-0 I guess I could still posit that some advanced form of dynamic translation would be able to do it, but that sounds extremely daunting. > MIPS compilers were specific for a chip because such details were not > hidden in the CPU itself, but left to the compiler to deal with. Ugh. That doesn't sound like such a great idea, but what do I know. That's a very weird intersection of hardware and software that I couldn't begin to unravel. -Swift From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Apr 25 10:11:23 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:11:23 -0400 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: <20160423032944.GA32694@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <1540EFC3-14C5-4362-BF34-24ADAD363088@comcast.net> > On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:05 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Fri, 22 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > >> One major problem with adding a faster CPU to an SGI is the MIPS chip >> itself---code compiled for one MIPS CPU (say, the R3000) won't run on >> another MIPS CPU (say, the R4400) due to the differences in the pipeline. > > Oh and you are so totally correct. Huh? I know some very ancient MIPS processors had oddball required delays ("load delay"?) that went away after. And there's the misbegotten "branch delay slot" -- but that is part of the architecture and applies to all MIPS even long after the reason for it was ancient history. Of course you can generate code for new MIPS that will break on old MIPS, just like for any other processor family that has evolved over time. But old code that would break on new MIPS? That's news to me. Sub-optimal, yes of course, that too is true for every processor family. I've worked for years on MIPS family systems, and always wrote or compiled for the oldest CPU used in the product line. Upward compatibility would take care of the rest. Swapping chips in a system is a different issue: what you need there is not just instruction set compatibility but also pin compatibility, and that is far less common (again, not just in MIPS but across many CPU families. Try plugging in a Pentium in place of a 486 and see how far you get, or an Alpha EV4 in place of an EV2, or a J-11 in place of an F-11. paul From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 10:14:26 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:14:26 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Sony eVilla BeIA (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <3084B5D7-2FD1-4A7B-862B-FF5F782F7BC2@eschatologist.net> References: <3084B5D7-2FD1-4A7B-862B-FF5F782F7BC2@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2016, Chris Hanson wrote: > > 2. Sony eVilla BeIA appliance using some kind of (crappy) built-in mail > > application. > Were these ever actually shipped? I only recall hearing that they were in > development. Not that I'm aware of. My friend Takeda-san and I were fiddling with one he had and he was a Sony Playstation developer who was able to get me a tour of the Sony building in Ginza (Tokyo) during off-hours, so he must have had some juice with Sony. I met him when I worked for a Japanese company and used to travel there a lot. However, the place where we did the fiddling was actually in Las Vegas. I was there at the same time as he was for two different conferences. He had a whole room full of toys that year. I think he wanted to show the device to me because he knew I liked BeOS. -Swift From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 25 10:20:09 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:20:09 -0400 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:54:37 -0400.) <20160425145437.8C41518C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160425145437.8C41518C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20160425152009.52395A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I have an original (which was used to make a ton of replicas for > people a while back); it says "Chicago Lock Co" and "GRB 2". No idea > what the latter means. The copies were made with Hillman Y11 and FR4 > blanks (both work, but one has to be trimmed a bit, length-wise). Aha. Cut 215 on Ilco S1041T. De From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 10:24:53 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:24:53 +0100 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 25 April 2016 at 16:02, Liam Proven wrote: > The Communicator is a *far* more interesting beast, with no 6502 or > copro -- it's a native 16-bit machine in the BBC family. Remarkable. > I haven't seen a Communicator since 2006 when I exhibited some machines at the Wakefield RiscOS show - http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Acorn/WROCC2006/index.php That show produced an entire skip full of Archimedes machines and a LOT of scrap BBC Micros. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Apr 25 10:36:49 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) Message-ID: <20160425153649.D9D0718C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dennis Boone >> it says "Chicago Lock Co" and "GRB 2" > Aha. > Cut 215 on Ilco S1041T. You were able to deduce that from the "GRB 2"? Is that authoritative? If so, I'd like to add it to the 11/05-10 page on the Computer History Wiki. Also, I have an original XX2065 (Data General) which I have no use for; if anyone has an XX2247 they'd like to trade for it (new is fine too), please let me know. Noel From macro at linux-mips.org Mon Apr 25 10:37:45 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:37:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <1540EFC3-14C5-4362-BF34-24ADAD363088@comcast.net> References: <20160423032944.GA32694@brevard.conman.org> <1540EFC3-14C5-4362-BF34-24ADAD363088@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > I know some very ancient MIPS processors had oddball required delays > ("load delay"?) that went away after. And there's the misbegotten > "branch delay slot" -- but that is part of the architecture and applies > to all MIPS even long after the reason for it was ancient history. See my other posting in this thread for details. NB branch delay slots have been gradually disappearing too as the architecture evolved. Branches with no delay slot (compact branches) first appeared with the MIPS16 ISA back in ~1996, then compact jumps were added with the MIPS16e ISA extension. Later on compact branches and jumps reappeared in the microMIPS ISA (assembly source level compatible with the regular MIPS ISA). With the recent R6 architecture revision compact branches and jumps were added to the regular ISA and delay slots removed altogether from the microMIPS ISA (R6 breaks full backwards compatibility for pipeline performance reasons; some old inventions were deemed too costly in terms of die space and power consumption for a contemporary architecture in embedded use). This is drifting away from the scope of our mailing list though. FWIW, Maciej From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 10:42:31 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:42:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <9CC90C02-C7FE-4A96-B066-9580507AD964@eschatologist.net> References: <571B8D68.1040800@gmail.com> <9CC90C02-C7FE-4A96-B066-9580507AD964@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Apr 2016, Chris Hanson wrote: > I want to use the systems as a whole enough not to just live in emulation, > but I only have a limited amount of time to spend with them, so replacing > just a few subsystems in ways that make the use of the overall systems > smoother seems like a reasonable compromise. I completely agree with you and the rest of your post. It sounds like you and I have a very similar attitude and use-case for our retro-hardware. I don't mind putting 3rd party extras on my older systems. As an example, I use several Acard 50-pin SCSI2 narrow adapter that can hold 2.5" SATA drives on older systems. The bandwidth of the SSDs I put in these adapters far outstrips the capabilities of my old SGI & Amiga systems. The thing is the latency is _so_ much lower, and that *does* translate to improved performance on the old hardware. It makes using the machines much more enjoyable. Plus, I remember a tradition of modifying and extending hardware in the 80's and 90's that's mostly been lost in the era of cheap disposable PCs. I'm okay with hot-rodding machines, even 20-30 years later when it doesn't make much difference. Why not use an emulator? Well where is the fun in that if I can't touch the metal ? I guess it's a bit like old cars. Lots of people hate the idea of someone putting non-original parts onto classic cars. Others will go nuts and butcher them into franken-rods with a mix. To each his own. I might be laughed at for wanting a Fiero-Ferrari, but hey it's all in good fun. -Swift From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 25 10:49:15 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:49:15 -0400 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:36:49 -0400.) <20160425153649.D9D0718C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160425153649.D9D0718C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20160425154915.C0111A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > You were able to deduce that from the "GRB 2"? Is that authoritative? > If so, I'd like to add it to the 11/05-10 page on the Computer > History Wiki. Yes, I looked up "GRB 2" in the Chicago codebook. The Chicago designation for the blank is K5K. De From erik at baigar.de Mon Apr 25 10:41:44 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:41:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek In-Reply-To: <5714FAA9.7090102@jwsss.com> References: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com> <571412A3.8080406@jwsss.com> <5714FAA9.7090102@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, regarding reading the StarTrek paper tapes I spent some time on the weekend to rework my SPT11A manual reader - I got this from an eBay auction and it was an accessory for some military receiver (probalby to read in some codes). It had a fimrwaere which refused to communicate with a simple terminal program, so I reverse en- gineered the hardware and replaced the original ROM it by an own firmware which simply sends the contents read from PPT to the PC via its RS232C... http://www.baigar.de/vintage/SPT11A-mod-Internal.jpg So I'd offer sending this to you as an item on loan to read in your tapes and you return it afterwards? I tested it with some data and it works well (just slowly pull the paper tape through the reader and use e.g. putty to log the binary serial output). After turning on the reader there is a short welcome message to verify the serial connection (9600,8N1). The only question is, whether you can handle the EU style power supply shown in the picture... http://www.baigar.de/vintage/SPT11A-mod.jpg I ordered USB->RS232C converters and if you have some more time, I'd attach one of them to the reader not only doing conversion but also supplying the converter with power from the PC. Addidionally you should send me your physical address via PM so I can prepare for shipping... Best regards from Germany, Erik. On Mon, 18 Apr 2016, jim s wrote: > > > On 4/18/2016 12:19 AM, Erik Baigar wrote: >> >> >> Hi Jim, Dear Sherman, >> >> thanks for the update. I wish you the very best for digitizing the >> tape. I can offer reading it using a Facit N4000 (speed can be configured >> down to 50cps, i.e. around 10cm/s). I also have got a manual reader >> which unfortunately is broken: I would have to generate a new 80C51 >> chip with the right firmware (not a big issue, but not possible over >> night). I can offer fixing this and lending it out to you in >> two or three weeks... >> > I'd be glad to help with shipping on that and would use it. I don't have any > fanfold samples to send to you for testing, but would be glad to have a hand > version to feed this thru. >> I'd be really interested in getting hands on a copy to run on my >> Rolm computers. Are you sure, that there is only a singel tape? > There are 47 individual tapes in the set. All from 1/4" of fan fold width to > about 1 1/2" of fanfold width. > > I will put up my photographs and videos later today and reply again with that > information on my blog. >> As mentioned I have got one tape of a two-tape binary distribution >> of the StarTrek. >> >> Best Regards from Germany, >> >> Erik. >> >> >> >> On Sun, 17 Apr 2016, jim s wrote: >> >>> Here is an update on the tape. It is a box of 47 tapes. We got a >>> volunteer from Charles Anthony to do a video reader for it. >>> >>> I have a video I can share of that tape if that is of interest. I was >>> hoping that it was going to be a basic source tape distribution, but on >>> looking at it, that doesn't fit with what I can read by eye on the tape I >>> read, so I bet it is a bunch of binaries. >>> >>> The tape is fanfold and will need a very careful handling to read it so we >>> will proceed carefully. It is pristine now, doesn't look like it was ever >>> read. >>> >>> I will let you know if we need help, but am going to look for a hand >>> optical reader somewhere for loan or build and attack it that way. >>> >>> It has writing on the box that leads me to think it is from a user group >>> for DG of some sort if that helps you identify the source of it. >>> >>> thanks >>> Jim >>> >>> >>> On 4/16/2016 3:04 AM, Erik Baigar wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Jim, >>>> >>>> just out of curiosity: Did you have got a look at the DG Star >>>> Trek? Is there a chance to get a copy of the tape? >>>> >>>> If you need assistance in reading the tape, just drop me >>>> a note... >>>> >>>> Best regards from Germany, >>>> >>>> Erik. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, 8 Apr 2016, Erik Baigar wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Jim, >>>>> >>>>> short version: Yes, I can confirm existence of such a software and >>>>> I'd be highly interested in a copy. Of course I can >>>>> offer digitizing it ;-) >>>>> >>>>> longer version: I am preserving various Rolm (later Loral) 16 bit >>>>> machines which are hardened, military machines widely comaptible >>>>> to the DG hardware (1602 compatible to Nova and MSE14/Micro is the >>>>> hardened Eclipse). If interested, have a look at my logbook... >>>>> >>>>> http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/TimeLine.html#HDDsim >>>>> >>>>> ...datecodes 10/20/2014 to 12/15/2014 and 2/3/2015 to 2/28/2015. >>>>> Together with two friends (both maintaining a 1602B and native >>>>> DG hardware) we built a harddisc simulator to run advanced >>>>> software (e.g. RDOS). During my efforts I rescued some paper tapes >>>>> from Rolm (diagnostics)... >>>>> >>>>> http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/EB-RolmTapes.jpg >>>>> >>>>> ...and among these serious, mighty tapes was one labeled >>>>> "Star Trek 1/2". I digitized it, but without the second part >>>>> it is of nut much use, so I am sure that such a game existed >>>>> for DG hardware. From the first tape I can tell, that it is >>>>> not just the BASIC listing, but native machine code and there >>>>> is a copyright message dating 1969-1973 ;-) >>>>> >>>>>> The tape pile is fanfold about 10" across in a DG box specially made >>>>>> for such use. >>>>> >>>>> On some occasions I had trouble reading the 30+ years old >>>>> oiled black tapes due to some holes on the folds being >>>>> obscured at the from debris of the ageing paper... >>>>> >>>>> The very best from Germany, >>>>> >>>>> Erik. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 11:12:02 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:12:02 +0100 Subject: bought in error - 1W Resistors Message-ID: Folks, Thanks to an ordering SNAFU by me I have some 1W resistors spare at 1K, 10K, 220R and 330R. 20 of each. They only cost ukp1 per bag so it's not worth me trying to send them back. Anyone? Or do I just bung them in my spares box and use them ad-hoc... -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 11:12:38 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:12:38 +0200 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 25 April 2016 at 17:24, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 25 April 2016 at 16:02, Liam Proven wrote: > >> The Communicator is a *far* more interesting beast, with no 6502 or >> copro -- it's a native 16-bit machine in the BBC family. Remarkable. >> > > I haven't seen a Communicator since 2006 when I exhibited some machines at > the Wakefield RiscOS show - > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Acorn/WROCC2006/index.php > > That show produced an entire skip full of Archimedes machines and a LOT of > scrap BBC Micros. Nifty. I wish I'd been there. Never made it to an Acorn Wakefield show. As a non-car-owner (or indeed a car driver at that time), it would have been a long, expensive trip on British trains. I am surprised that I didn't know about the actual significance of the Communicator. It's not like it was lost in the noise of the multitudes of 65816-based hardware or anything! Looking back, the chip deserved to do better. Now I know that the 3 biggest 6502 families all got 16-bit 65816 versions... * the Commodore 64's CMD SuperCPU http://www.cmdweb.de/scpu.htm * The Apple ][GS, apparently limited to just 2.8MHz for tech reasons rather than so as not to compete with the 8MHz Mac: http://www.1000bit.it/support/articoli/apple/a2gs/interview_woz.asp And now I learn of the Acorn Communicator. There was also the 65832, a 32-bit successor to the 65816 was designed, but never made... https://plus.google.com/108984290462000253857/posts/GavXzpHPKGw (I learned of that CPU from list member Peter Corlett.) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Apr 25 11:39:52 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:39:52 -0500 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <571E4858.4070401@pico-systems.com> On 04/25/2016 09:38 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Oberon "not commercially viable"? That's a remarkably > foolish, short-sighted and ignorant thing to say. Oberon > is what Pascal grew up into, and I think a million-odd > Delphi programmers would have very strong words with you > that the Pascal family isn't commercially viable. And you > do know what Apple MacOS was originally written in, don't > you? I wrote about Oberon myself recently: Since FPC (Free Pascal Compiler) has been developed on Linux, maybe Pascal could have a resurgence. I used it to port a couple of my programs from (Ughhh!) Borland Turbo Pascal for Windows to Linux, and it was a surprisingly painless job. The only thing I notice is the error messages look exactly like Borland error messages on DOS. (Error 132 at 1B7F sort of thing.) Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Apr 25 11:51:28 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:51:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? Message-ID: <20160425165128.8EB1C18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jules Richardson > I think my personal view is that I'll consider modern replacements to > things when it's impossible to use the originals - but not simply for > reasons of speed, cost, convenience. This sounds like it's not _that_ far from my position, which is that I am against building modern equivalents for "stuff that is still available and perfectly functional". >> running the disks ... risks damaging what are effectively museum >> pieces. > There I'd just say run them until they break and can't be fixed, and > then they can become static museum exhibits. The problem with that is that I feel that it conflicts with what I feel one of our main goals ought to be, which is to preserve these machines in running form, for history and the education of future generations. Yes, even powering them on risks a failure, but most failures are repairable. A crashed head, if you don't have spares, is pretty much un-fixable (there's a whole manufacturing complex needed to create them, which is now gone, and one can't substitute an alternative part). So I'd run them as little as possible - and a modern solid-state alternative really helps with that. (BTW, there's a big debate in the museum world over this sort of topic: some places won't do any cleaning and fixing of antique objects, retaining them exactly as they were, and living with the degradation of plastics, etc; others do restoration, but mark what was done, and make it reversible if possible; others go all out and restore things to 'like new'. I'm kind of in camp II, myself.) There's also a practical down-side to the 'run it as a matter of course till it fails forever' approach; if one has packs for that drive which one wishes to read or write, that's no longer possible once the drive is roached (although someone else could do it for you, but that's not necessarily a desirable option). And of course, with the drive dead, the machine may not be runnable unless one adds a modern alternative - and if one's willing to do that _after_ the drive is fried, why not before? > From: Swift Griggs > I might be laughed at for wanting a Fiero-Ferrari For a good time, Google 'Jerrari'! :-) Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 25 11:53:06 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:53:06 -0700 Subject: pdp8/e problems In-Reply-To: References: <20160424200622.GA17731@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <90247f2d-edcd-aa8f-0da5-36ef02a6eb22@bitsavers.org> On 4/24/16 7:18 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > You do know about bitsavers.org, yes? The M8330 is a particularly bad drawing. It was apparently originally very large and didn't do well when it was copied inside DEC. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 12:00:20 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:00:20 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > Wow. That is really remarkably narrow-minded and I'm not even slightly > surprised that you've had some strongly negative reactions already. I'm not either. LISP fans act like it's a "cause", not a language. I wasn't even attacking LISP, really. Just saying it wasn't going to land me a job in the 80's or 90's, at least not a job I wanted (ie.. outside academia). I'm sure someone somewhere used LISP to write something useful at some point. That's not my point. I just knew that if they didn't focus on C or C++, I was going to be eating cat food in my part of the country, because in podunk cow-ville, nobody gave a hoot about college profs hand-waving about the spiritual meta programming beauty in LISP. They had work to do in other languages, and I wanted that work. It feels more to me like every time someone says anything negative about LISP, the adherents want to punish them personally for it's failure to catch on big. Wow. Calm down. There is probably a great deal more Microsoft ASP code out there versus LISP. It doesn't mean that ASP is a great language or that it's "better" (argumentum ad populum). It means that it caught on (for whatever crazy reason). So, the point is that the masses don't often pick "great" languages to fixate on. IMHO, Just because I point that out, doesn't make me "foolish, ignorant, narrow minded, or short-sighted" > While I personally find Lisp to be unreadable, nonetheless, it's enabled > people to do some wholly remarkable things, and it certainly seems to > deserve all the plaudits it has received. It might seem that way to you, but not to me. I can find just as many folks who are critical (many luminaries or folks involved with the creation of new LISP dialects, too). There are 210,000 results for "LISP sucks" on Google, and I can paste in the first couple of links, too. What does that prove ? The utility of a language is totally in eyes of the observer and the hands of it's skilled users. > Oberon "not commercially viable"? That's a remarkably foolish, > short-sighted and ignorant thing to say. Well, thanks for being so nice about it. Well, here's me, foolishly going to double down and say: 1. Oberon isn't Pascal. It's very similar, but not the same. 2. Oberon wasn't commercially viable. Pascal was. Simple as that. So, if I said I didn't like BCPL should I expect everyone who codes in C to have a similar apoplexy just because the languages are tied in a successor relationship ? > And you do know what Apple MacOS was originally written in, don't you? Yes, I'm well aware that MacOS previous to X was Pascal-centric. Pascal was definitely commercially viable, and by extension; so is Delphi. I actually like(d) the language, too. > I wrote about Oberon myself recently: Hmmmmm. Are you sure your personal interest in the topic hasn't pushed you to be a little sensitive about it ? -Swift From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 25 12:30:15 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:30:15 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <571E4858.4070401@pico-systems.com> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <571E4858.4070401@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <571E5427.5050708@sydex.com> On 04/25/2016 09:39 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > I used it to port a couple of my programs from (Ughhh!) Borland > Turbo Pascal for Windows to Linux, and it was a surprisingly painless > job. The only thing I notice is the error messages look exactly like > Borland error messages on DOS. (Error 132 at 1B7F sort of thing.) Historically, one of my pet peeves with compiler writers. IBM 704 FORTRAN had better and clearer diagnostics than many of today's compilers. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 25 12:42:06 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <571E5427.5050708@sydex.com> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <571E4858.4070401@pico-systems.com> <571E5427.5050708@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/25/2016 09:39 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> I used it to port a couple of my programs from (Ughhh!) Borland >> Turbo Pascal for Windows to Linux, and it was a surprisingly painless >> job. The only thing I notice is the error messages look exactly like >> Borland error messages on DOS. (Error 132 at 1B7F sort of thing.) > > Historically, one of my pet peeves with compiler writers. IBM 704 > FORTRAN had better and clearer diagnostics than many of today's compilers. > Well keep in mind that given that error, you could stick that address into the "Find Error Location" of the IDE and it would drop you right on the line of code that triggered the error. Check out Lazarus for doing cross-platform GUI applications. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 12:43:33 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:43:33 +0100 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <20160425165128.8EB1C18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160425165128.8EB1C18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <04fe01d19f19$fd3d3220$f7b79660$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa > Sent: 25 April 2016 17:51 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? > > > From: Jules Richardson > > > I think my personal view is that I'll consider modern replacements to > > things when it's impossible to use the originals - but not simply for > > reasons of speed, cost, convenience. > > This sounds like it's not _that_ far from my position, which is that I am against > building modern equivalents for "stuff that is still available and perfectly > functional". I perhaps take a slightly more permissive view. I am happy to use modern parts if they allow me to keep an old machine operational AND can be installed and removed in a non-destructive manner. For example my PC server 500 has an unreliable floppy. I intend to add a GoTek board so I can update the ADF files safely. > > >> running the disks ... risks damaging what are effectively museum > >> pieces. But if you don't run them then you might as well just display empty boxes... > > > There I'd just say run them until they break and can't be fixed, and > > then they can become static museum exhibits. > > The problem with that is that I feel that it conflicts with what I feel one of our > main goals ought to be, which is to preserve these machines in running form, > for history and the education of future generations. > > Yes, even powering them on risks a failure, but most failures are repairable. > A crashed head, if you don't have spares, is pretty much un-fixable (there's a > whole manufacturing complex needed to create them, which is now gone, > and one can't substitute an alternative part). So I'd run them as little as > possible - and a modern solid-state alternative really helps with that. > There used to be places that re-built drives after a head crash. Not sure if they still exist. > (BTW, there's a big debate in the museum world over this sort of topic: some > places won't do any cleaning and fixing of antique objects, retaining them > exactly as they were, and living with the degradation of plastics, etc; others > do restoration, but mark what was done, and make it reversible if possible; > others go all out and restore things to 'like new'. I'm kind of in camp II, > myself.) > > There's also a practical down-side to the 'run it as a matter of course till it fails > forever' approach; if one has packs for that drive which one wishes to read or > write, that's no longer possible once the drive is roached (although someone > else could do it for you, but that's not necessarily a desirable option). > > And of course, with the drive dead, the machine may not be runnable unless > one adds a modern alternative - and if one's willing to do that _after_ the > drive is fried, why not before? > > > > From: Swift Griggs > > > I might be laughed at for wanting a Fiero-Ferrari > > For a good time, Google 'Jerrari'! :-) > > Noel Dave From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 12:50:47 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:50:47 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <571E4858.4070401@pico-systems.com> <571E5427.5050708@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:42 AM, geneb wrote: > > Check out Lazarus for doing cross-platform GUI applications. > > g. > There's also WDSibyl as a Delphi work-alike for OS/2 and eComStation. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 25 12:50:50 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:50:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from References: <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Mon, 4/25/16, Swift Griggs wrote: > So, the point is that the masses > don't often pick "great" languages to fixate on.? IMHO, Just > because I point that out, doesn't make me "foolish, ignorant, narrow > minded, or short-sighted" I usually try to stay out of such discussions, but I think it's important to draw some distinctions here. First, it's not pointing out which languages/techniques are popular that's narrow- minded and short-sighted. It's the view that popularity and "commercial viability" is the primary consideration of value in education that's narrow-minded and short-sighted. Second, it's the perspective that's narrow-minded and short-sighted, not the person who expresses that perspective. Many people fail to appreciate the distinction between training and education and as a result see the primary purpose of the university to be job preparation. That so many people misunderstand the purpose of the university isn't a reflection on their individual intelligence or priorities. It's a reflection on the misplaced priorities of the secondary education system and of society as a whole. It's the same misplaced priorities that lead so many students to be so obsessed by the most meaningless part of the system: grades. BLS From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Apr 25 12:49:33 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:49:33 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:00:20 -0600 (MDT)" References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <01PZFVQ3U3SK00CYLM@beyondthepale.ie> > > There are 210,000 results for "LISP sucks" on Google and I can paste > in the first couple of links, too. What does that prove ? > I think it demonstrates that quoting the initial number of search results that Google returns is pretty unusable for any purpose. I only get 209,000 results. However, if I take Google at their word and page through them, when I get to page 29 (and only then), they finally admit that the number of results is more like 282. Along the way, there are some interesting matches like these: Download lagu 2ollux 2peak2 two you (ugh..my lisp sucks) Mp3 ... if you have a lisp... you cant say lisp... which sucks - Tickld Old Earl comment saying Casey Veggies Sucks ? Kanye West Forum ... 'Grey's Anatomy' Season 11 Recap: Maggie Tells Meredith They're ... @metalmouth25 Instagram photos | Websta (Webstagram) Frontal Lisp, Missing Teeth, and Thumbsucking ? Speech Pathology ... Your Tournament Sucks - Forums - World of Warcraft - Battle.net Scorpion is the latest TV show to do us nerds a disservice ... Urban Dictionary: Thisp Vince McMahon Reportedly Furious With Byron Saxton At RAW ... David Leadbetter to be fired by the Wie camp - GolfDiscussions A Current Affair's Leila McKinnon reveals lingual braces are behind ... Leila Mckinnon on her lisp. - Mamamia Encyclopedia of Health - Google Books Result Living with a lisp! | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis How To Break The Finger-Sucking Habit - Circle of Moms Is HGTV's Flip or Flop real? What Tarek El Moussa and Christina El ... Breaking the thumb sucking habit - BootsWebMD The Alpha's Protected Mate - Society Sucks - Wattpad Chie's new voice - Persona 4 Golden - Giant Bomb Popular bands that were terrible live | Steve Hoffman Music Forums Pennywise Help? [Archive] - Offspring.com Forums Orthodontic Sucks - I got a bite plate =o - PlayStation? Forums Why "After Earth" Is A Disaster - Business Insider Regards, Peter Coghlan. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 14:05:38 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 13:05:38 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > First, it's not pointing out which languages/techniques are popular that's > narrow- minded and short-sighted. I get that. > It's the view that popularity and "commercial viability" is the primary > consideration of value in education that's narrow-minded and > short-sighted. I know what you are getting at. It's basically an extension of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. The idea is somewhat that if students learn a "good" language that'll teach them some meta-structure that will help them later. Conversely, I've heard folks say that BASIC is the opposite since the goto statement encourages bad-coding. > Second, it's the perspective that's narrow-minded and short-sighted, not > the person who expresses that perspective. I get that too. Then, let me say that the *idea* that I was attacking Pascal via Oberon rather than the Ivory Tower Academics is ridiculous. > Many people fail to appreciate the distinction between training and > education and as a result see the primary purpose of the university to > be job preparation. I completely understand the point you are making. I don't disagree. Since most folks are too broke to afford it without taking on massive debt, modern students might be forgiven if the distinction is lost on them after they emerge with huge debt saddling them. Your point might be logically valid, but ask a 23 year old if they care when they can't get a job after giving the uni a quarter million bucks and 4-5 years of time they spent being "educated" rather than "trained". The underlying point I was making is that schools don't always "train" a person ... and that's what I wanted and actually needed. There weren't any dedicated coding schools I had access to back then. So, my option was to attend a local school I could afford or nothing. Much to my chagrin all but one of the profs had turned off their brains in 1986 and it was the 90's. The only one of them who could actually teach *or* train me in anything was too busy managing a ranch (seriously) to spend much time teaching. The rest of them could barely grade my code. > That so many people misunderstand the purpose of the university isn't a > reflection on their individual intelligence or priorities. It's a > reflection on the misplaced priorities of the secondary education system > and of society as a whole. True. I wonder though, do you believe that teaching a language with almost zero commercial value is justified in the name of education because of it's superior "meta" qualities ? They couldn't have done both since all commercially successful languages are just so much trash ? IMHO, one can teach using just about any Turing-complete language (and yes I've taught programming classes myself, just not at a University). If the lang sucks then you can point out what sucks about it and what not to do. My first language was Logo. It'd have been a lot more helpful at the time if it was something else. I tossed Logo aside the minute I got a compiler. 99% of the useful design patterns are ones I've learned on my own. As Will Hunting says, I might have paid $1.50 in late fees to learn what they taught me in school and been a lot better off, but bereft of the sheepskin in the end. Then again, I went to two crappy schools that didn't specialize in CS. I didn't graduate. I dropped out in my 4th year after the frustration boiled over. So, maybe my personal perspective is just as personal as those folks who went to MIT and fell in love with LISP, just different (about $250,000 different, in fact). > It's the same misplaced priorities that lead so many students to be so > obsessed by the most meaningless part of the system: grades. Grades aren't meaningless if you have a grant/scholarship to maintain or need to get into graduate school. They aren't meaningless if you have to pay tuition and ever class you have to re-take costs you $$$. They have plenty of meaning to employers like IBM who might not hire you for that entry-level position with a low GPA. They might not reflect some aspect of education or learning you think is important, but there is more to going to uni than just to get a mind expanding education. I think folks who haven't been to school in 20+ years have a totally warped view of what is happening nowadays. They are becoming astronomically expensive and the value they impart is more and more questionable. The debt trap they participate in is good enough reason for many students to avoid them altogether and seriously consider "training" style schools as alternative if you'd like to say, be able get a job via passing a technical interview when you graduate. I was coding at a job about six years ago and we wanted to hire a couple of interns. So, we interviewed about 6 candidates. All our code was in C or C++ and we found that none of the students from the local universities had those skills. They were taught (some) Smalltalk and (mostly) Java. Okay, fine, but the ones I interviewed had very weak critical thinking skills, and that was the worst part since I could have grudglingly taken the time to teach them C or C++. I could only attribute that to the memorize-and-regurgitate culture of the schools, but maybe it was just bad luck. We ended up hiring a 17 year old kid with GED who made the college grads look downright pathetic. He was self-taught on cheap home computers. He knew a few scripting languages we didn't care about but we taught him C and C++ and he was doing commits about three weeks later. Later on we hired one of the interns and had to let them go because he didn't understand that he couldn't skip work like he skipped class and also couldn't think or code his way out of a wet paper sack. If I remain dubious of the value of "education" vs "training", just chalk it up to my personal experience. -Swift From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 25 14:12:47 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:12:47 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <571E6C2F.6000100@sydex.com> On 04/25/2016 10:50 AM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > I usually try to stay out of such discussions, but I think it's > important to draw some distinctions here. First, it's not pointing > out which languages/techniques are popular that's narrow- > minded and short-sighted. It's the view that popularity and > "commercial viability" is the primary consideration of value > in education that's narrow-minded and short-sighted. Exactly to the point! In its day, JOVIAL was a great programming language, but who the heck knows it today? In 1970, a student taking a programming languages course would be likely be exposed to COBOL, FORTRAN, Algol and perhaps PL/I. How many students today are conversant in those? Those were the big "general-purpose" languages and you'd be unlikely to find a job not knowing at least two of those. We ran into that with COBOL and Y2K, which surprised me, since I didn't think that COBOL had quite gone out of fashion yet in 1998. Back then I wondered if there were any extant 7080 autocoder applications still running around (running under emulation) that needed updating. Times change and it's always best to take the broad view of learning as many languages as opportunity affords. Down at the bottom, it's all machine code. --Chuck From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 14:16:04 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 13:16:04 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <01PZFVQ3U3SK00CYLM@beyondthepale.ie> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <01PZFVQ3U3SK00CYLM@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > There are 210,000 results for "LISP sucks" on Google and I can paste > > in the first couple of links, too. What does that prove ? > I think it demonstrates that quoting the initial number of search > results that Google returns is pretty unusable for any purpose. Generally, in my experience, when someone states a fact then says "What does that prove?" they are dismissing the importance of said fact. > I only get 209,000 results. However, if I take Google at their word > and page through them, when I get to page 29 (and only then), they > finally admit that the number of results is more like 282. I think I could reproduce your method with any topic. 1. Do any search. Especially one with lots of results. 2. Scroll to the last page of results 3. Quote some irrelevant results. The point was that having someone spout a couple of links off the net isn't proof of squat when it comes to something so subjective. Ie.. dealing with words like "rock" or "suck" ? Are you going to tell me that there is some scientifically valid way of determining that ?? -Swift From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 15:13:50 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:13:50 -0500 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 2:17 PM, wrote: > >> The >> other is that many Amigas had processor "slots" (with edge connectors) >> rather than some tiny fiddly ball-grid array etc... but I'm not a EE; so >> maybe that's bunk. >> >> > High clock rates for data busses of modern systems wouldn't work with old > style card edge interconnects AFAIK. Also, I don't think the old PPC > accelerators for the Amiga or the ones for the Macs (that sometimes had CPU > upgrade slots) would really accelerate everything - you might get faster > processor instructions and maybe L1/L2 cache -- but memory and I/O are > still slow? Well, the native memory, and peripherals, yeah sure, that was still "slow." (but still adequate). Most every accelerator board available for Amiga had it's own dedicated on-board memory and SCSI adapter for faster IO where it really mattered most. The other major thing being graphics adapters ran better on the 3000 and 4000 since those had 32-bit busses (and with higher speed and burst modes available), so they kinda sorta planned on people putting faster processors on those than what they were shipped with (and in some cases didn't have a CPU on the motherboard even). Not sure about the Apple front. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 25 16:14:01 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:14:01 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <571E6C2F.6000100@sydex.com> References: <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571E6C2F.6000100@sydex.com> Message-ID: <571E8899.5090209@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/25/2016 1:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/25/2016 10:50 AM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > >> I usually try to stay out of such discussions, but I think it's >> important to draw some distinctions here. First, it's not pointing >> out which languages/techniques are popular that's narrow- >> minded and short-sighted. It's the view that popularity and >> "commercial viability" is the primary consideration of value >> in education that's narrow-minded and short-sighted. > > Exactly to the point! In its day, JOVIAL was a great programming > language, but who the heck knows it today? In 1970, a student taking a > programming languages course would be likely be exposed to COBOL, > FORTRAN, Algol and perhaps PL/I. How many students today are conversant > in those? Those were the big "general-purpose" languages and you'd be > unlikely to find a job not knowing at least two of those. > > We ran into that with COBOL and Y2K, which surprised me, since I didn't > think that COBOL had quite gone out of fashion yet in 1998. Back then I > wondered if there were any extant 7080 autocoder applications still > running around (running under emulation) that needed updating. > > Times change and it's always best to take the broad view of learning as > many languages as opportunity affords. > > Down at the bottom, it's all machine code. I suspect IBM 360/370 until the PC BOOM. > --Chuck But for the most part Common Folk did not have the resources I suspect for REAL programing languages, because those require a REAL OS to run with, and after the 8086 the Newer chips became too complex to use, and the 68000 was only 16 bit addressing. Then Windows came out and NON-DIS-CLOSER become the norm. Then hardware and plug and play... USB... IBM packed decimal. Ben. PS: The Only hardware gripe I have with Oberon you just have 1 SD slot. What if I want to back up the card? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 25 16:20:42 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:20:42 -0600 Subject: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <571E8A2A.4060303@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/25/2016 2:13 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > > Well, the native memory, and peripherals, yeah sure, that was still "slow." > (but still adequate). Most every accelerator board available for Amiga had > it's own dedicated on-board memory and SCSI adapter for faster IO where it > really mattered most. The other major thing being graphics adapters ran > better on the 3000 and 4000 since those had 32-bit busses (and with higher > speed and burst modes available), so they kinda sorta planned on people > putting faster processors on those than what they were shipped with (and in > some cases didn't have a CPU on the motherboard even). > > Not sure about the Apple front. Well I know, you get the wrong chipset and nothing got suported for the PC. Ben. PS: I hate OS's for upgrading the screen resolution to get more crappy dancing toasters. BRING BACK 640x480. I can READ the SCREEN. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 16:46:33 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:46:33 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Screen sizes. Was Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <571E8A2A.4060303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <571E8A2A.4060303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, ben wrote: > PS: I hate OS's for upgrading the screen resolution to get more crappy > dancing toasters. BRING BACK 640x480. I can READ the SCREEN. Amen to that. I have macular degeneration in my retinae. It's not really having any effect, yet. However, I'm starting to note that my fonts sizes are creeping up. I *dream* of an LCD that's greater than 21" but uses a much lower native resolution. I'd take 640x480, 800x600, 1024x786, or 1280x1024 (at most). Incidentally, have you seen any new 4k screens? I got one early on and boy what a mistake that was. I didn't even keep it for a week. You can jack up your terminal fonts to 14 or 18 and it's still tiny and nearly unreadable. In applications that you can't adjust easily, it's a nightmare. You can't read *anything*. Playing some games in 4k was cool, it looked marginally better than 1920x1080, but not much. The only thing that was better or more detailed (in my case, folks, in my case) was photo-editing. -Swift From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 25 16:46:39 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:46:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from References: <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Mon, 4/25/16, Swift Griggs wrote: >The idea is somewhat that if students learn a > "good" language that'll teach them some meta-structure that will help them > later. Certainly a lot of people do view it that way, but it's not what I was getting at or how I see it.? Based on my experience, the virtues of any single language are pretty much irrelevant.? What's vitally important is that the student emerge with a deep understanding of how a variety of languages actually work, how they're processed and how the computer executes code written in them.? If you have that deep understanding with a sampling of languages that represent some of the variety of techniques and paradigms (for lack of a better term), then you'll be able to pick up and adapt to most any language that comes along.? To tell you the truth, I'm not very likely to hire anyone who isn't conversant with at least half a dozen different languages.? To summarize, my focus isn't on the skills of any particular lanugage; it's on the understanding of the fundamental concepts, principles, techniques, and mechanisms that make up the world of computing. >Then, let me say that the *idea* that I was attacking Pascal via > Oberon rather than the Ivory Tower Academics is ridiculous. I did understand the point in your first message to be anit-"Ivory Tower Academics."? However, my point it is that viewing the people you have identified as such and dismissing their experience and expertise is a narrow-minded and short-sighted perspective. > Your point might be > logically valid, but ask a 23 year old if they care when they can't get a > job after giving the uni a quarter million bucks and 4-5 years of time > they spent being "educated" rather than "trained". It's interesting that you pick that age as the example.? My daughter is 23.? For her, the undergraduate experience wasn't about a job at all.? It was about exploring the intellectual world and (to borrow from Thoreau) sucking the marrow out of that life.? In the interest of full disclosure, however, I should point out that she's not typical of most college students (although I wish more were like her). She did grow up in a household that averages more than two degrees per person and she did triple major in her four undergrad years. (A proud daddy can't help but brag a little. :) ) > The underlying point I? was making is that schools don't always > "train" a person ... I apologize if I misinterpret, but I also detect the suggestion that they are supposed to.? I don't disagree that they don't train, but I do disagree that's what their purpose is. I'm not suggesting that some degree of training coming along with the education is a bad thing. However, I'm saying that's not the primary purpose of the university. >? and that's what I wanted and actually needed. There seems to be an implication here of an XOR when I look for an AND. In particular, if I have a candidate sitting across the interview desk from me, I'm not interested unless they have both education and training. I expect the education to come from a formal environment where people of long experience can help the student understand many perspectives. I expect the training to come from self-directed experience. Unless a candidate shows both the ability to work in a rigorous intellectual manner and the self motivation to go beyond what they've been given, I'm not interested. > all but one of the profs had > turned off their brains in 1986 and it was the 90's. It's certainly true that does happen both in academics and in industry. However, more often than not, the ideas that were seen as "new" in the '80s, '90s, '00s, and '10s, are really ideas that the Computer Science community saw, studied, understood, etc in the '50s, '60s, and '70s. So what appears to be out of touch is often really a broader perspective and one worth understanding and learning from. > True. I wonder though, do you believe that teaching a > language with almost zero commercial value is justified > in the name of education because of it's superior "meta" > qualities ? I'm not sure I can answer the question as you've posed it. As I said, I tend to consider the choice of any single language to be mostly irrelevant. I'm much more interested in the neural pathways that the student builds as a result of the experience of coming to understand a large set of languages. As it turns out, I am currently involved with a restructuring of the introductory programming sequence at one university. Our choice of languages was driven by both pedagogical and vocational considerations. Were our environment different such that we should have looked at only one or the other, then we would have chosen differently. Regardless of what we did pick, we never intended for the freshman languages to be the only languages our students knew before graduation. No one or two languages will give the breadth and depth needed pedagogically. Neither will any one or two languages suffice for building a career as a computer scientist. > Grades aren't meaningless if you have a grant/scholarship > to maintain or need to get into graduate school. There are expected minimums, certainly. Based on my experiences in both academics and industry, I would have my doubts about whether someone is really cut out for a CS major if they can't average Bs in their major classes. On the other hand, I have yet to be in a hiring meeting where one candidate was chosen over another because they had a 3.5 vs the 3.3 the other candidate had. For that matter, I always question candidates that come in front of me who have 4.0 averages. Before I can take them seriously, I need to see some evidence that learning new things is a higher priority to them than the grade. It goes back to the expectation that the candidate show evidence that they can pick things up on their own as well as in the classroom. > They have plenty > of meaning to employers like IBM who might not hire you for > that entry-level position with a low GPA. Actually, it's better to consider companies with unenlightened cutoffs to be simply advertising that they are not where you want to be. > They might not reflect some aspect of education or learning > you think is important, but there is more to going to uni than just > to get a mind expanding education. The purpose of the university is the discovery, dissemination, preservation, and interpretation of knowledge. A necessary, but not sufficient, part of being well-prepared for a professional career is the exposure to that breadth and depth of knowledge. I would rephrase your statement to say that there's more to preparing for a career than just getting a university degree. > I think folks who haven't been to school in 20+ years have a totally > warped view of what is happening nowadays. I might point out that on this mailing list, you will find people who are all across the spectrum with exposure to education. Some of us were students many years ago and haven't had much contact since. Some of us have been students recently. Some of us have siginificant faculty experience. As with the experience of changes in the CS field, I'd suggest that the longer the period of time over which one has experience with education the less warped the view of what's happening. However, each individual must decide for themselves whose opinions and experiences earn their respect. > All our code was in C or C++ and we found that none of the students > from the local universities had those skills. Although there are plenty who disagree with me, I argue that the purpose of the university experience isn't the skills; it's the understanding. I always say I want to hire the preson who I can tell on Friday that we'll be using Intercal for the project and they'll spend the weekend teaching themselves the language and come in Monday morning ready to code in Intercal. I (as well as entrepreneurs I know) have very little interest in how much experience and skill a candidate has in a particular language. The reality is no matter what their experience is coming in, I'm going to have to teach them how to do things the way I want them done. > I could only attribute that to the memorize-and-regurgitate > culture of the schools, but maybe it was just bad luck.? It's a combination of bad luck and the ill effects of misplaced priorities filtering up from the primary and secondary school levels. As I tell my students, there is a continuum of understanding. At one end, there is the mere repeat back to me what I've said to you. If that's all a student can do, then there's not much value in it. I can simply put the same information into a computer and then not bother paying a person for it. At the other end of the continuum is the ability to ask the right next question, the understanding of how our current knowledge came about, and the understanding of how to advance that knowledge. My objective in every class I teach is to help each student move as far along that continuum as they are capable. The farther along that continuum you move, the more you will be able to discover what has never been known before and create what has never existed before. Many would classify that perspective as "Ivory Tower." They might say, I can't put food on the table with that attitude. I would differ with that. I have put food on the table for several decades, and in only a few of those years were the funds coming primarily from the academy. Indeed I have realized that my level of understanding and my drive to explore, investigate, and create are of significant value to many. Those who recognize that are willing to exchange monatary renumeration for the contributions I can make. Those who don't recognize it self-select themselves out of the pool and I don't have to worry about them. Throughout this, it has not been my intention to in any way dismiss your perspective or to suggest that it is a "wrong" perspective. Indeed, it's a perspective I'm quite familiar with. Instead, my objective has been to suggest there's another perspective whose consideration might lead to deeper understanding. It is a perspective which attempts to temper the immediacy of the question of tomorrow's employment with the longer-term view of how that employment fits into the thousands of years of human civilization. BLS From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 25 16:55:59 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:55:59 -0400 Subject: High resolution screens are great for typography - Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <571E8A2A.4060303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <571E8A2A.4060303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <571E926F.9070704@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-25 5:20 PM, ben wrote: > On 4/25/2016 2:13 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > >> >> Well, the native memory, and peripherals, yeah sure, that was still >> "slow." >> (but still adequate). Most every accelerator board available for >> Amiga had >> it's own dedicated on-board memory and SCSI adapter for faster IO >> where it >> really mattered most. The other major thing being graphics adapters ran >> better on the 3000 and 4000 since those had 32-bit busses (and with >> higher >> speed and burst modes available), so they kinda sorta planned on people >> putting faster processors on those than what they were shipped with >> (and in >> some cases didn't have a CPU on the motherboard even). >> >> Not sure about the Apple front. > > Well I know, you get the wrong chipset and nothing got suported > for the PC. Ben. > PS: I hate OS's for upgrading the screen resolution to get more crappy > dancing toasters. BRING BACK 640x480. I can READ the SCREEN. Or just make the text bigger... We've had proper font scaling technology in common operating systems for about 30 years now. There is no upper limit to size & more pixels means better fidelity to letterforms and therefore better legibility, not worse. Ask a typographer anything. --Toby From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 25 17:08:21 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:08:21 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <571E9555.2000704@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/25/2016 3:46 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > Although there are plenty who disagree with me, I argue that the > purpose of the university experience isn't the skills; it's the understanding. > I always say I want to hire the preson who I can tell on Friday that > we'll be using Intercal for the project and they'll spend the weekend > teaching themselves the language and come in Monday morning > ready to code in Intercal. I (as well as entrepreneurs I know) have > very little interest in how much experience and skill a candidate > has in a particular language. The reality is no matter what their > experience is coming in, I'm going to have to teach them how to > do things the way I want them done. I am still working on the ERROR messages here like: E111 COMMUNIST PLOT DETECTED, COMPILER IS SUICIDING I better stick to INTERCAL-72. Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 25 17:15:15 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:15:15 -0700 Subject: Screen sizes. Was Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: <571E8A2A.4060303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <571E96F3.4050306@sydex.com> On 04/25/2016 02:46 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, ben wrote: >> PS: I hate OS's for upgrading the screen resolution to get more >> crappy dancing toasters. BRING BACK 640x480. I can READ the >> SCREEN. > > Amen to that. I have macular degeneration in my retinae. It's not > really having any effect, yet. However, I'm starting to note that my > fonts sizes are creeping up. I *dream* of an LCD that's greater than > 21" but uses a much lower native resolution. I'd take 640x480, > 800x600, 1024x786, or 1280x1024 (at most). I'm still using a NEC 5:4 1200x1600 Multisync 23.1" LCD. Not wide-screen, but then I'm not a goat (hint: look up "goat pupil shape"), so I'm fine with it. The 32" 1080p widescreen monitors that I have are terrible when it comes to displaying detail. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Apr 25 17:16:09 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:16:09 -0400 Subject: Screen sizes. Was Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: <571E8A2A.4060303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <88C216168CD0404395EB68AE2AD9BD93@TeoPC> -----Original Message----- From: Swift Griggs Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 5:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Screen sizes. Was Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? I *dream* of an LCD that's greater than 21" but uses a much lower native resolution. I'd take 640x480, 800x600, 1024x786, or 1280x1024 (at most). Those resolutions don't exist in widescreens which is all anybody makes anymore. I picked up a nice 19" 1280x1024 native resolution LCD monitor years ago but ended up with a 24" 1080P IPS monitor. You can still find old DELL 1280x1024 monitors used for cheap. Not sure if anybody made that resolution in larger then 19" size. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 25 17:34:20 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:34:20 -0600 Subject: High resolution screens are great for typography - Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <571E926F.9070704@telegraphics.com.au> References: <571E8A2A.4060303@jetnet.ab.ca> <571E926F.9070704@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <571E9B6C.9050300@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/25/2016 3:55 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > There is no upper limit to size & more pixels means better fidelity to > letterforms and therefore better legibility, not worse. Ask a > typographer anything. > > --Toby I suspect other that TEX fonts, You cannot get fonts to scale properly for the bigger screens. Ben. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 17:49:07 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:49:07 -0500 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <571E9EE3.2070607@gmail.com> On 04/25/2016 10:02 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > I meant to develop this point slightly, and did in a blog post, here: > > http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/48593.html > > But in the meantime, it kept the 6502-based, resolutely-8-bit BBC > Micro line alive with updates and new models, including ROM-based > terminals and machines with a range of built-in coprocessors: faster > 6502-family chips for power users, Z80s for CP/M, Intel's 80186 for > kinda-sorta PC compatibility, the NatSemi 32016 with PANOS for > ill-defined scientific computing, and finally, an ARM copro before the > new ARM-based machines were ready. I'm not sure if a user could go out and buy a 32016 copro, though. The only ones I've ever been aware of have come from educational institutions and I get the impression they were employed more for testing the market than anything. > What I dismissed as one of the ROM-based terminals was the Acorn > Communicator, a single-box machine (i.e. main board in the keyboard, > like an Amiga 500 or original 520 ST.) I had a couple of those, and I know one went to a museum, but I'm not entirely sure what I did with the other! I may still have it. cheers Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 25 17:51:12 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:51:12 +0000 Subject: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) In-Reply-To: <571D4DDD.8050705@pico-systems.com> References: <20160423124130.529EF18C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <571BAB7D.10806@sydex.com> <8BB77581-589D-4BA7-96A6-3C8D569080E7@cs.ubc.ca> <571BFB5C.3070005@sydex.com> <571C020B.5010303@pico-systems.com> <571D2D7C.6060405@jetnet.ab.ca>,<571D4DDD.8050705@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Ah PolyPaks! The parts were always guaranteed. If they were bad, you could send them back and then you could test the next one. They surely created the term "You-Test-Em". Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jon Elson Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2016 3:51 PM To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion@ Subject: Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) On 04/24/2016 03:33 PM, ben wrote: > On 4/23/2016 8:32 PM, dwight wrote: >> I recall going to Mike Quinn's and seeing barrels of RTL. >> I wish now that I'd bought a bunch of them. >> Most DTL can be replace by a TTL except a few with different >> pinouts and the NAND with the diode expand pin. >> My oldest equipment has a mix of DTL and TTL. >> Dwight > > All I ever saw was the ads like this. > https://www.flickr.com/photos/oskay/4455981283/ > Wrong coast! Poly Paks was an East Coast outfit. Mike Quinn's was at the Oakland, CA airport. I first saw it in the early 1990's, I think, when it was still in the WW-II temp building on the airport property. You were literally walking on 3" of crunched circuit boards in the back rooms! There were large tables covered with circuit boards and small units, and the stuff that slid off the tables just became the floor covering. They had tons of boards out of computers and electronic equipment. The best stuff was kept in front in glass cases next to the cash register. Jon From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 25 18:21:45 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:21:45 -0400 Subject: High resolution screens are great for typography - Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <571E9B6C.9050300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <571E8A2A.4060303@jetnet.ab.ca> <571E926F.9070704@telegraphics.com.au> <571E9B6C.9050300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <571EA689.7010300@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-25 6:34 PM, ben wrote: > On 4/25/2016 3:55 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> There is no upper limit to size & more pixels means better fidelity to >> letterforms and therefore better legibility, not worse. Ask a >> typographer anything. >> >> --Toby > > I suspect other that TEX fonts, You cannot get fonts to scale properly > for the bigger screens. Ben. Incorrect. Scalable system (& third party) fonts have been with us for more than 30 years, as I said. Both Mac System 7 and ancient Windows shipped with TrueType, but even before that you had anti-aliased type with Adobe Type Manager. OS X 10.3 shipped with subpixel rendering on LCD as has Windows Cleartype for many years. Now, not ALL UI elements may be properly resolution independent, but TEXT definitely is (e.g. the Terminal window example, or any editor, etc). Blow it up as big as you like; you might like to use one of these scalable fonts: http://programmingfonts.org/ (Adobe Source Code Pro is a great start) --Toby From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 19:15:54 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:15:54 -0600 (MDT) Subject: High resolution screens are great for typography - Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <571EA689.7010300@telegraphics.com.au> References: <571E8A2A.4060303@jetnet.ab.ca> <571E926F.9070704@telegraphics.com.au> <571E9B6C.9050300@jetnet.ab.ca> <571EA689.7010300@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Toby Thain wrote: > Incorrect. Scalable system (& third party) fonts have been with us for > more than 30 years, as I said. Though you are quite correct, it doesn't mean that scalable fonts are everywhere. They might be present more or less everywhere in MacOS and maybe even Windows, too. However, there are two problems. One is that it's (currently) a big hassle in Windows to get absolutely every font to get bigger at once. Trust me, I tried. For example, you might make the title bar bigger, but the text underneath button icons might be immutable (and thus microscopic). I expect this will change in the future as folks adopt Apple's solution where they can sort of interpolate (maybe that's the wrong term in this case) the view of what you are seeing. I'm guessing you know what I mean. If that happens, I might decide I *love* high res screens. What you are saying is fundamentally sound, ie.. more pixels mean more detail and readability. It's just the current state of the art that's no fun. My other (personal) issue is that I use a lot of oddball operating systems that don't have and will never have good support for scalable fonts which can easily be adapted for ultra-high-res. So, I just stick with old monitors and specialty stuff (like the Samsung 210T). > OS X 10.3 shipped with subpixel rendering on LCD as has Windows Cleartype > for many years. Which is, I agree, great for readability. Now if there was just a universal one-stop place to double my font sizes in every OS (or even the same OS)... :-) -Swift From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Apr 25 19:29:16 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 20:29:16 -0400 Subject: High resolution screens are great for typography - Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: <571E8A2A.4060303@jetnet.ab.ca> <571E926F.9070704@telegraphics.com.au> <571E9B6C.9050300@jetnet.ab.ca> <571EA689.7010300@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > On Apr 25, 2016, at 8:15 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Toby Thain wrote: >> Incorrect. Scalable system (& third party) fonts have been with us for >> more than 30 years, as I said. > > Though you are quite correct, it doesn't mean that scalable fonts are > everywhere. They might be present more or less everywhere in MacOS and > maybe even Windows, too. However, there are two problems. One is that it's > (currently) a big hassle in Windows to get absolutely every font to get > bigger at once. Trust me, I tried. Indeed. At least Windows offers the option, though it does a mediocre job. Mac OS doesn't do it at all, in any way. It seems that Apple thinks everyone is a young whipppersnapper. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Apr 25 19:56:04 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 20:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: High resolution screens are great for typography - Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? Message-ID: <20160426005604.7D6ED18C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Swift Griggs > it's (currently) a big hassle in Windows to get absolutely every font > to get bigger at once. Have you tried right-click on a blank spot on the desktop, 'Properties', 'Setting', 'Advanced'? The window that pops up allows you to change i) on older Windows, _all_ font sizes (options are 100%, 125%, and custom) at once; ii) on newer Windows, the size of _everything_ (which includes images, I think). Noel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 25 20:05:47 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:05:47 -0400 Subject: High resolution screens are great for typography - Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: <571E8A2A.4060303@jetnet.ab.ca> <571E926F.9070704@telegraphics.com.au> <571E9B6C.9050300@jetnet.ab.ca> <571EA689.7010300@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <571EBEEB.4090809@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-25 8:15 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Toby Thain wrote: >> Incorrect. Scalable system (& third party) fonts have been with us for >> more than 30 years, as I said. > > Though you are quite correct, it doesn't mean that scalable fonts are > everywhere. They might be present more or less everywhere in MacOS and > maybe even Windows, too. However, there are two problems. One is that it's "Maybe" even Windows? Microsoft was a partner in developing TrueType... You couldn't use Windows in graphic arts without this feature. & Linux has had Freetype for a long time (also with subpixel rendering). > (currently) a big hassle in Windows to get absolutely every font to get > bigger at once. Trust me, I tried. For example, you might make the title > bar bigger, but the text underneath button icons might be immutable (and > thus microscopic). I expect this will change in the future as folks adopt > Apple's solution where they can sort of interpolate (maybe that's the wrong > term in this case) the view of what you are seeing. I'm guessing you know > what I mean. If that happens, I might decide I *love* high res screens. > What you are saying is fundamentally sound, ie.. more pixels mean more > detail and readability. It's just the current state of the art that's no > fun. > > My other (personal) issue is that I use a lot of oddball operating systems > that don't have and will never have good support for scalable fonts which Then again, some "oddball" operating systems have excellent support for scalable fonts and anti-aliasing. Embedded user interfaces often need it just as much as desktops. > can easily be adapted for ultra-high-res. So, I just stick with old > monitors and specialty stuff (like the Samsung 210T). > >> OS X 10.3 shipped with subpixel rendering on LCD as has Windows Cleartype >> for many years. > > Which is, I agree, great for readability. Now if there was just a universal > one-stop place to double my font sizes in every OS (or even the same OS)... > :-) Control + or Command + :-) [also Chrome has a default window zoom. I find this setting for me has crept up a little in recent years :] --Toby > > -Swift > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 25 20:17:08 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:17:08 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <571E8899.5090209@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571E6C2F.6000100@sydex.com> <571E8899.5090209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <571EC194.8040803@sydex.com> On 04/25/2016 02:14 PM, ben wrote: > But for the most part Common Folk did not have the resources I > suspect for REAL programing languages, because those require a REAL > OS to run with, and after the 8086 the Newer chips became too complex > to use, and the 68000 was only 16 bit addressing. Say what? The MC68000 has 24 bits of addressing (A0-A23). The A0-A7 registers are 32 bits in length, even though 24 bits are used for addresses. --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Apr 25 20:21:43 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:21:43 -0400 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: <0E1261D4-67BE-407C-AE98-8E6FB14F5633@comcast.net> References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> <20160423160419.00D13A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <571D6AB0.1040505@compsys.to> <0E1261D4-67BE-407C-AE98-8E6FB14F5633@comcast.net> Message-ID: <571EC2A7.4020309@compsys.to> >Paul Koning wrote: >>>On Apr 24, 2016, at 8:54 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >> >> >>>Kyle Owen wrote: >>> >>> >>>On a related note, a former DEC field engineer gave me this key (and >>>keychain). He thought it was a PDP-8 key at first, but it's not the >>>standard XX2247. It says KBM1100...any ideas what this might go to? >>> >>>http://imgur.com/a/4v8Hq >>> >>I have followed this thread, but have not been interested enough >>to keep any of the old posts. >>... >>The above post suggests that XX2247 was used for the PDP-8. >>If so, was any specific key used for the PDP-11? >> >> > >XX2247 was the standard key for the PDP-11. And the VAXen, at least until DEC switched to plastic blank "keys" instead. > Thanks to Tony Duell, Jay West, Dennis Boone and Paul Koning. The reason I was asking is that I want a "hidden" HELP command for one of the PDP-11 programs that I wish to enhance. That HELP command will require a "hidden" value, so what better number than 2247 for the value that will be required. The command will not actually be hidden, of course, since there will be some documentation. But until the code associated with the HELP command is activated by using the HELP command, the user will not see the "hidden" stuff. It helps to have a sense of humour and look for a bit of fun when code is being written. Jerome Fine From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 25 20:43:26 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:43:26 -0600 Subject: High resolution screens are great for typography - Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: <571E8A2A.4060303@jetnet.ab.ca> <571E926F.9070704@telegraphics.com.au> <571E9B6C.9050300@jetnet.ab.ca> <571EA689.7010300@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <571EC7BE.1010306@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/25/2016 6:15 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Toby Thain wrote: >> Incorrect. Scalable system (& third party) fonts have been with us for >> more than 30 years, as I said. > > Though you are quite correct, it doesn't mean that scalable fonts are > everywhere. They might be present more or less everywhere in MacOS and > maybe even Windows, too. However, there are two problems. One is that it's > (currently) a big hassle in Windows to get absolutely every font to get > bigger at once. Trust me, I tried. For example, you might make the title > bar bigger, but the text underneath button icons might be immutable (and > thus microscopic). I expect this will change in the future as folks adopt > Apple's solution where they can sort of interpolate (maybe that's the wrong > term in this case) the view of what you are seeing. I'm guessing you know > what I mean. If that happens, I might decide I *love* high res screens. > What you are saying is fundamentally sound, ie.. more pixels mean more > detail and readability. It's just the current state of the art that's no > fun. > > My other (personal) issue is that I use a lot of oddball operating systems > that don't have and will never have good support for scalable fonts which > can easily be adapted for ultra-high-res. So, I just stick with old > monitors and specialty stuff (like the Samsung 210T). > >> OS X 10.3 shipped with subpixel rendering on LCD as has Windows Cleartype >> for many years. > > Which is, I agree, great for readability. Now if there was just a universal > one-stop place to double my font sizes in every OS (or even the same OS)... > :-) > > -Swift > Since I am in sour mood today, rain is hampering my cleaning plans ... The screen looks great, But how does that web page print? The sour side ... printing. Ben. From seefriek at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 20:45:21 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:45:21 -0400 Subject: Fast Unibus Sync Serial? Message-ID: Is there an equivalent to the DSV11 for Unibus? Or other quick Unibus sync serial that my Google-fu isn't good enough to find? The DMC11 looks like it can do 56Kbps over V.35, which is better than the 19.2kbps on the DMF32, but it would be useful to be able to push to 256Kbps (or faster). I'm particularly interested in doing HDLC. KJ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 25 20:52:06 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:52:06 -0600 Subject: High resolution screens are great for typography - Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: <20160426005604.7D6ED18C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160426005604.7D6ED18C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <571EC9C6.8040208@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/25/2016 6:56 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Swift Griggs > > > it's (currently) a big hassle in Windows to get absolutely every font > > to get bigger at once. > > Have you tried right-click on a blank spot on the desktop, 'Properties', > 'Setting', 'Advanced'? The window that pops up allows you to change i) on > older Windows, _all_ font sizes (options are 100%, 125%, and custom) at once; > ii) on newer Windows, the size of _everything_ (which includes images, I > think). 800x600 still works most of the time, but ever so often I need to use a pop-up window that that don't fit the screen. That is a pain. > Noel > Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 25 21:05:45 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 20:05:45 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <571EC194.8040803@sydex.com> References: <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571E6C2F.6000100@sydex.com> <571E8899.5090209@jetnet.ab.ca> <571EC194.8040803@sydex.com> Message-ID: <571ECCF9.4020909@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/25/2016 7:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/25/2016 02:14 PM, ben wrote: > >> But for the most part Common Folk did not have the resources I >> suspect for REAL programing languages, because those require a REAL >> OS to run with, and after the 8086 the Newer chips became too complex >> to use, and the 68000 was only 16 bit addressing. > > Say what? The MC68000 has 24 bits of addressing (A0-A23). The A0-A7 > registers are 32 bits in length, even though 24 bits are used for addresses. DIM FLOAT J(256,256), FLOAT SUM How do you access variable I cleanly, if DIRECT LONG is not a option? Ben. From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Apr 25 21:08:02 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:08:02 -0500 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <571E5427.5050708@sydex.com> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <571E4858.4070401@pico-systems.com> <571E5427.5050708@sydex.com> Message-ID: <571ECD82.1090301@pico-systems.com> On 04/25/2016 12:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/25/2016 09:39 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> I used it to port a couple of my programs from (Ughhh!) Borland >> Turbo Pascal for Windows to Linux, and it was a surprisingly painless >> job. The only thing I notice is the error messages look exactly like >> Borland error messages on DOS. (Error 132 at 1B7F sort of thing.) > Historically, one of my pet peeves with compiler writers. IBM 704 > FORTRAN had better and clearer diagnostics than many of today's compilers. > Linux compilers usually have decent diagnostics at compile time, and at least describe the error a bit at run time, rather than give an error code. I have no idea whether gdb will give any help on a run time error in a FPC program, but I have a funny feeling that they haven't linked in the requires stuff to do that, just from the message. I have debugged some c and c++ programs with gdb, and while it is a tad cryptic, it is quite powerful, you can examine variables and pointers and track down what is wrong. Since I had working Pascal programs and was just porting, I worked through the few errors pretty blindly, but wouldn't want to do that with a new program. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Apr 25 21:08:43 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:08:43 -0500 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <571E4858.4070401@pico-systems.com> <571E5427.5050708@sydex.com> Message-ID: <571ECDAB.1020200@pico-systems.com> On 04/25/2016 12:42 PM, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 04/25/2016 09:39 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >> >>> I used it to port a couple of my programs from (Ughhh!) >>> Borland >>> Turbo Pascal for Windows to Linux, and it was a >>> surprisingly painless >>> job. The only thing I notice is the error messages look >>> exactly like >>> Borland error messages on DOS. (Error 132 at 1B7F sort >>> of thing.) >> >> Historically, one of my pet peeves with compiler >> writers. IBM 704 >> FORTRAN had better and clearer diagnostics than many of >> today's compilers. >> > Well keep in mind that given that error, you could stick > that address into the "Find Error Location" of the IDE and > it would drop you right on the line of code that triggered > the error. > Yes, does that work with FPC on Linux? Jon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 25 21:10:55 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 20:10:55 -0600 Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: <571EC2A7.4020309@compsys.to> References: <509DAA0255BD4D7B8FE73AD35816BE9F@310e2> <2AA05652-C91D-4F6E-822C-1C12FC837FD3@comcast.net> <20160423160419.00D13A5852E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <571D6AB0.1040505@compsys.to> <0E1261D4-67BE-407C-AE98-8E6FB14F5633@comcast.net> <571EC2A7.4020309@compsys.to> Message-ID: <571ECE2F.70402@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/25/2016 7:21 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Paul Koning wrote: > >>>> On Apr 24, 2016, at 8:54 PM, Jerome H. Fine >>>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Kyle Owen wrote: >>>> >>>> On a related note, a former DEC field engineer gave me this key (and >>>> keychain). He thought it was a PDP-8 key at first, but it's not the >>>> standard XX2247. It says KBM1100...any ideas what this might go to? >>>> >>>> http://imgur.com/a/4v8Hq >>>> >>> I have followed this thread, but have not been interested enough >>> to keep any of the old posts. >>> ... >>> The above post suggests that XX2247 was used for the PDP-8. >>> If so, was any specific key used for the PDP-11? >>> >> >> XX2247 was the standard key for the PDP-11. And the VAXen, at least >> until DEC switched to plastic blank "keys" instead. >> > Thanks to Tony Duell, Jay West, Dennis Boone and Paul Koning. > > The reason I was asking is that I want a "hidden" HELP command > for one of the PDP-11 programs that I wish to enhance. That HELP > command will require a "hidden" value, so what better number than > 2247 for the value that will be required. The command will not > actually be hidden, of course, since there will be some documentation. > But until the code associated with the HELP command is activated > by using the HELP command, the user will not see the "hidden" stuff. > > It helps to have a sense of humour and look for a bit of fun when > code is being written. > > Jerome Fine Like: This key is for the PDP-8 ... NOW FORMATING ALL DISK PACKS TO 12 BIT FORMAT.Hit any other key to abort. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 21:20:17 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:20:17 -0400 Subject: Fast Unibus Sync Serial? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 9:45 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: > Is there an equivalent to the DSV11 for Unibus? Or other quick Unibus > sync serial that my Google-fu isn't good enough to find? DUP-11? Will that do what you need? -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 25 22:37:25 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 20:37:25 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <571ECCF9.4020909@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571E6C2F.6000100@sydex.com> <571E8899.5090209@jetnet.ab.ca> <571EC194.8040803@sydex.com> <571ECCF9.4020909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <571EE275.3000500@sydex.com> On 04/25/2016 07:05 PM, ben wrote: > DIM FLOAT J(256,256), FLOAT SUM > > How do you access variable I cleanly, if DIRECT LONG is not a > option? Ben. What variable I? You haven't declared it. You have 32 bit A and D registers. You do your arithmetic in the D registers and move the result to the appropriate A register and Bob's your uncle. It's a whole lot more straightforward than coding in Large mode on an 8086. --Chuck From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 22:39:00 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:39:00 -0600 (MDT) Subject: The Ivory Tower saga was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: First let me say "Wow, what a thoughtful and detailed response." We might not agree, but at least you are civil about it and I appreciate that. On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > Certainly a lot of people do view it that way, but it's not what I was > getting at or how I see it. Based on my experience, the virtues of any > single language are pretty much irrelevant. I couldn't agree more. Learning patterns and algorithms is much more helpful since they can be broadly applied. For example, I learned Quicksort in Pascal, but I've implemented it in C many times, without having to refer back to any source. > To tell you the truth, I'm not very likely to hire anyone who isn't > conversant with at least half a dozen different languages. When it comes to hiring experienced coders, I couldn't agree more. I get resumes sometimes where the person focuses only on one language. Those generally migrate to the bottom of the stack. I code in eight languages myself. Three of those I'm pretty strong in, the rest I get by in or used to be good at but faded. However, there is certainly a process of discovery every time I learn a new one. I make sure to learn new languages on a regular basis. Sometimes I don't use them and I forget, other times I throw them away with burning hatred. However, I usually always learn something new. > I did understand the point in your first message to be anit-"Ivory Tower > Academics." However, my point it is that viewing the people you have > identified as such and dismissing their experience and expertise is a > narrow-minded and short-sighted perspective. It's probably a bad idea to dismiss anyone's experience when you haven't "walked a mile in his moccasins.", including mine. Though my attempt may have been inarticulate, I was talking about my own experience in academia and not trying to pick a fight with every LISP coder on the planet. If I was more clever, I'd have probably had the foresight to say simply say $academic_only_language instead of using the pit-bull attack trigger word: LISP. > It's interesting that you pick that age as the example. My daughter is > 23. For her, the undergraduate experience wasn't about a job at all. It > was about exploring the intellectual world Well, I wish I had such a view of the world. However, the urgency of making a living without parental support (and there was zero for me) was paramount. I didn't want to graduate with many thousands of dollars of student debut so I could explore the intellectual world (no sarcasm intended). Personally, I find it much easier to do that on my own because without the weight of the grade or test, I can just relax and learn what I want, not what someone else thinks is important for me. Your daughter will likely have the benefit of profs who are delighted to teach her since she sounds delighted to learn. > and (to borrow from Thoreau) sucking the marrow out of that life. I've read Walden, and I have to say, Thoreau isn't a big fan of the academia, either. He rails against universities and their methods of the day. > In the interest of full disclosure, however, I should point out that she's > not typical of most college students (although I wish more were like her). As cool as her attitude is, no she's not at all typical in my experience. > She did grow up in a household that averages more than two degrees per > person and she did triple major in her four undergrad years. (A proud > daddy can't help but brag a little. :) ) It probably greatly influenced what she thought she *should* get from a university (her experience growing up with you as a dad). I didn't have that kind of upbringing. > I apologize if I misinterpret, but I also detect the suggestion that they > are supposed to. I don't disagree that they don't train, but I do > disagree that's what their purpose is. I don't disagree that they are not here to train, but I sure as heck think they ought to consider the value of doing both simultaneously, or focusing *some* on training. At least in the USA, the middle class is shrinking. That factors into the "urgency" you mention - meaning there will be more of it. The skyrocketing costs also jaundice the eye of folks who listen to this kind of debate. Ie.. if you have to pay a fortune, *some* ROI becomes a concern. > I'm not suggesting that some degree of training coming along with the > education is a bad thing. However, I'm saying that's not the primary > purpose of the university. I would totally agree. If I had my way universities would be very different places. However, it's not my way, but I don't have to like it. > In particular, if I have a candidate sitting across the interview desk > from me, I'm not interested unless they have both education and training. You'd miss a lot of stellar folks, then. Only about half of the "genius" programmers I've known had a degree in anything related to CS (or at all). Not to mention that by this standard many famously intelligent or talented folks who had training, but little or no university education wouldn't get the nod. > I expect the education to come from a formal environment where people of > long experience can help the student understand many perspectives. Sounds like the old "well rounded" argument for college. However, what I think you aren't seeing is the intersection of nasty economics and this purified idea of what a university should be about. They are on a collision course and I'd point to the bifurcation of universities already. You have your office-building University vs your greek-frat campus university. You seem to be advocating for the latter. > I expect the training to come from self-directed experience. Unless a > candidate shows both the ability to work in a rigorous intellectual manner > and the self motivation to go beyond what they've been given, I'm not > interested. I've been personally involved in hiring around @200 people during my career. I got stuck doing many interviews when I worked at IBM and Oracle (about 10 years between the two). Personally, I couldn't have given a rats behind about their education. I only cared if they could pass my tech screen and get through the panel-based technical interview. Nobody wants to coddle a sub-par IT guy while everyone else struggles to shoulder their share, no matter how well rounded they are. > However, more often than not, the ideas that were seen as "new" in the > '80s, '90s, '00s, and '10s, are really ideas that the Computer Science > community saw, studied, understood, etc in the '50s, '60s, and '70s. Agreed, but taken to an extreme, it's still not helpful. Using material that's experientially relevant to the student should still matter. > As it turns out, I am currently involved with a restructuring of the > introductory programming sequence at one university. Then, may you choose well. > No one or two languages will give the breadth and depth needed > pedagogically. Perhaps, but they might get ahead in of someone else as they exit the university because you taught them something more commercially relevant, even though it's not what you see as your job. > Neither will any one or two languages suffice for building > a career as a computer scientist. Most don't want to be a computer scientist, they want to be IT managers, coders, DBAs and sysadmins, because those are the bulk of IT jobs. Just keep in mind few will ever get to become a "Computer Scientist", unless you mean that in a very general sense. > There are expected minimums, certainly. Based on my experiences in both > academics and industry, I would have my doubts about whether someone is > really cut out for a CS major if they can't average Bs in their major > classes. That seems reasonable, as long as the program was fair and the students were engaged. When those things go off the rails, as you hear about with some for-profit universities, it doesn't seem as cut and dried. > seriously, I need to see some evidence that learning new things is a > higher priority to them than the grade. I look for a signs that they have a true love for tech or tinkering. If they couldn't be kept from taking things apart as a kid, that's a good sign. If they read technical things as kids and lusted or near-worshiped some type of machine, code, etc.. A love for learning combined with an "applied" character is perfect. > I teach is to help each student move as far along that continuum > as they are capable. Too bad I didn't have more professors with that attitude. > Many would classify that perspective as "Ivory Tower." They might say, I > can't put food on the table with that attitude. I would differ with that. That's not something I would say, my definition of Ivory Tower is when academics refuse to recognize that reality has superseded their expectations that the world conform to the breadth of their ability to teach it. Also willfully refusing to teach anything practical simply to stay "meta". You can do both, I think and it's not an unreasonable expectation. > Throughout this, it has not been my intention to in any way > dismiss your perspective or to suggest that it is a "wrong" > perspective. Thanks. > Indeed, it's a perspective I'm quite familiar with. Instead, my objective > has been to suggest there's another perspective whose consideration might > lead to deeper understanding. Duly noted. > It is a perspective which attempts to temper the immediacy of the question > of tomorrow's employment with the longer-term view of how that employment > fits into the thousands of years of human civilization. You bring the torch for civilization. I'll hunt us up some grub. Maybe we both can live in the world, eh? -Swift From kspt.tor at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 22:39:13 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:39:13 +0200 Subject: Screen sizes. Was Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business? In-Reply-To: References: <571E8A2A.4060303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 25 April 2016 at 23:46, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, ben wrote: >> PS: I hate OS's for upgrading the screen resolution to get more crappy >> dancing toasters. BRING BACK 640x480. I can READ the SCREEN. > > Amen to that. I have macular degeneration in my retinae. It's not really > having any effect, yet. However, I'm starting to note that my fonts sizes > are creeping up. I *dream* of an LCD that's greater than 21" but uses a > much lower native resolution. I'd take 640x480, 800x600, 1024x786, or > 1280x1024 (at most). > > Incidentally, have you seen any new 4k screens? I got one early on and boy > what a mistake that was. I didn't even keep it for a week. You can jack up > your terminal fonts to 14 or 18 and it's still tiny and nearly unreadable. > In applications that you can't adjust easily, it's a nightmare. You can't > read *anything*. Playing some games in 4k was cool, it looked marginally > better than 1920x1080, but not much. The only thing that was better or more > detailed (in my case, folks, in my case) was photo-editing. I ran into that with a 2560x1440 screen. But it turns out that the solution is *not* to increase font size. OS'es which can handle those screens (and 4K as well), including various Linux distros and Windows, do this by changing the GUI to 'high dpi' (or various versions of that term). Everything adjusts to the high resolution, including terminal windows (although not the humble 'xterm'. GTK-based ones, and other of that kind, do though). So my screen became perfectly readable again. Crisp, clear, and large. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 25 23:15:06 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:15:06 -0600 Subject: The Ivory Tower saga was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <571EEB4A.3070608@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/25/2016 9:39 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > You bring the torch for civilization. I'll hunt us up some grub. Maybe we > both can live in the world, eh? Don't forget the Skimpy Fur clad Females. > -Swift > From macro at linux-mips.org Mon Apr 25 08:28:30 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 14:28:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Apr 2016, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > The thing > > I am struggling with at the moment is getting sys$crmpsc_pfn_64 to work so I > > can use C to test the NVRAM. I seem to have a problem with the service > > writing back the address and length, but I don't yet know why. > > That's beyond my abilities I'm afraid, can't help. Ah, BTW, a general note: make sure you request an uncached mapping, if your interface has such control, mark your pointers `volatile' and use appropriate synchronisation barriers between accesses. Maciej From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 25 17:37:23 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 23:37:23 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Maciej > W. Rozycki > Sent: 25 April 2016 14:29 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > On Sun, 24 Apr 2016, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > > > The thing > > > I am struggling with at the moment is getting sys$crmpsc_pfn_64 to > > > work so I can use C to test the NVRAM. I seem to have a problem with > > > the service writing back the address and length, but I don't yet know > why. > > > > That's beyond my abilities I'm afraid, can't help. > > Ah, BTW, a general note: make sure you request an uncached mapping, if > your interface has such control, mark your pointers `volatile' and use > appropriate synchronisation barriers between accesses. > > Maciej To help me work out why my program isn't working I went back to the console command to try to write to the flashbus index register, I used the following command: deposit -l pmem:100000000 94000000 This should set up the flashbus register to write to the LEDs. Instead I got a machine check and an "Illegal target address". Am I misunderstanding the technical manual? Are those addresses it gives for the flashbus registers physical addresses? Thanks Rob From macro at linux-mips.org Mon Apr 25 18:42:11 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 00:42:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > To help me work out why my program isn't working I went back to the console > command to try to write to the flashbus index register, I used the following > command: > > deposit -l pmem:100000000 94000000 > > This should set up the flashbus register to write to the LEDs. Instead I got > a machine check and an "Illegal target address". Hmm, I wonder if: >>>d -l -physical 100000000 94000000 would make a difference. I guess not, but probably worth checking. > Am I misunderstanding the technical manual? Are those addresses it gives for > the flashbus registers physical addresses? I'm sure they're physical (see Chapter 3 too). One possibility is SRM unmaps them when it takes over from SROM, for safety maybe -- so as not to let one corrupt flash by accident easily (BTW, I do recommend write-protecting flash with its jumper for these experiments -- with DROM not working correctly and hence no way to load SRM from a floppy you'd be doomed if flash broke too). The symptoms should look like ones you've got, though of course plain poking at the wrong area would look the same. You could check if flashbus is mapped by peeking at bank 8 memory controller registers and seeing if the contents provide the necessary wiring (in particular if bit #0 aka `s8_Valid' in the 16-bit word at 0x180000b00 is 1). These registers are listed in the same manual -- with a further reference to the (rather fat) memory controller manual. If not, then you'd have to set them yourself. There could be PALcode entry points to access flashbus too I suppose, although regrettably my Alpha-fu is not so deep as to know this offhand. NB all the address space from 0x100000000 through to 0x1ffffffff is uncacheable it would seem, so no need to be concerned about this part. Maciej From shermanfoy at att.net Mon Apr 25 22:41:11 2016 From: shermanfoy at att.net (Sherman Foy) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 03:41:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek References: <1087156665.1795523.1461642071284.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1087156665.1795523.1461642071284.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> have discussed w/ Jim: I have a 240 Euro connector bench transformer meant for this. From shermanfoy at att.net Mon Apr 25 22:46:54 2016 From: shermanfoy at att.net (Sherman Foy) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 03:46:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> under the heading of d?j? vu, if this unit is a Rockwell Collins mil hand paper tape puller, my old roommate ran the qualification tests on the development of that system. That happened here in Santa Ana @ their Harbor & Warner facility. They drove around the parking lot in the bed of pickup trucks pulling tape and loading systems w/ potholes & speedbumps in the way. From rwiker at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 01:23:08 2016 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:23:08 +0200 Subject: The Ivory Tower saga was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8A53BFF5-6504-43CA-8725-286858731FC7@gmail.com> > On 26 Apr 2016, at 05:39 , Swift Griggs wrote: > > It's probably a bad idea to dismiss anyone's experience when you haven't > "walked a mile in his moccasins.", including mine. Though my attempt may > have been inarticulate, I was talking about my own experience in academia > and not trying to pick a fight with every LISP coder on the planet. If I > was more clever, I'd have probably had the foresight to say simply say > $academic_only_language instead of using the pit-bull attack trigger word: > LISP. If you think that Lisp is an "academic only language", you probably need to spend a little time with actually using it. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Apr 26 01:58:30 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 02:58:30 -0400 Subject: Vintage computer ads... Message-ID: <2e1128.308c8cc.44506b96@aol.com> very bogus with the hp 150 business system and they guy claims the 9121 dual floppies was a hard drive.... Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 4/20/2016 7:47:24 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, oltmansg at gmail.com writes: On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:37 AM, geneb wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T1IYdjOpYE > > The video is an hour long, but you can skip around. It includes ads for > machines like the ITT Xtra, IBM PC Jr, etc. The Hayes Smartmodem ad is > just atrocious. :) There's even ads for IOMega drives and the Promethus > Pro Modem... > > Is that Bryan Cranston a la Breaking Bad in that video??? Sure looks like him. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 26 02:18:17 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:18:17 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Maciej W. > Rozycki > Sent: 26 April 2016 00:42 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > To help me work out why my program isn't working I went back to the > > console command to try to write to the flashbus index register, I used > > the following > > command: > > > > deposit -l pmem:100000000 94000000 > > > > This should set up the flashbus register to write to the LEDs. Instead > > I got a machine check and an "Illegal target address". > > Hmm, I wonder if: > > >>>d -l -physical 100000000 94000000 > > would make a difference. I guess not, but probably worth checking. I suspect not, but will give it a go. > > > Am I misunderstanding the technical manual? Are those addresses it > > gives for the flashbus registers physical addresses? > > I'm sure they're physical (see Chapter 3 too). > > One possibility is SRM unmaps them when it takes over from SROM, for > safety maybe -- so as not to let one corrupt flash by accident easily (BTW, I do > recommend write-protecting flash with its jumper for these experiments -- > with DROM not working correctly and hence no way to load SRM from a > floppy you'd be doomed if flash broke too). The symptoms should look like > ones you've got, though of course plain poking at the wrong area would look > the same. I will check for unmapping, but I get a machine check when I write code running in OpenVMS that attempts to write to the same physical location. This assumes my code is correct of course, which is what I was trying to verify by using the console. This makes me wonder if the problem is that the DROM is getting the same errors. But I am not sure if that can be true because then the DROM would not be able to write to the diagnostic LEDs either (and the SROM wouldn't be able to load the DROM, presumably). > > You could check if flashbus is mapped by peeking at bank 8 memory > controller registers and seeing if the contents provide the necessary wiring > (in particular if bit #0 aka `s8_Valid' in the 16-bit word at > 0x180000b00 is 1). These registers are listed in the same manual -- with a > further reference to the (rather fat) memory controller manual. If not, then > you'd have to set them yourself. There could be PALcode entry points to > access flashbus too I suppose, although regrettably my Alpha-fu is not so > deep as to know this offhand. I need to understand more about the Alpha architecture to understand this, but I will check. All I can say is that I did try to read the bank 8 base address register and I did get a value, but I didn't undertand what it meant. Will do some reading. > > NB all the address space from 0x100000000 through to 0x1ffffffff is > uncacheable it would seem, so no need to be concerned about this part. > Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 26 02:18:17 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:18:17 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PV6D48DJVO00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <009901d148d7$08e1f690$1aa5e3b0$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Maciej W. > Rozycki > Sent: 26 April 2016 00:42 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > To help me work out why my program isn't working I went back to the > > console command to try to write to the flashbus index register, I used > > the following > > command: > > > > deposit -l pmem:100000000 94000000 > > > > This should set up the flashbus register to write to the LEDs. Instead > > I got a machine check and an "Illegal target address". > > Hmm, I wonder if: > > >>>d -l -physical 100000000 94000000 > > would make a difference. I guess not, but probably worth checking. I suspect not, but will give it a go. > > > Am I misunderstanding the technical manual? Are those addresses it > > gives for the flashbus registers physical addresses? > > I'm sure they're physical (see Chapter 3 too). > > One possibility is SRM unmaps them when it takes over from SROM, for > safety maybe -- so as not to let one corrupt flash by accident easily (BTW, I do > recommend write-protecting flash with its jumper for these experiments -- > with DROM not working correctly and hence no way to load SRM from a > floppy you'd be doomed if flash broke too). The symptoms should look like > ones you've got, though of course plain poking at the wrong area would look > the same. I will check for unmapping, but I get a machine check when I write code running in OpenVMS that attempts to write to the same physical location. This assumes my code is correct of course, which is what I was trying to verify by using the console. This makes me wonder if the problem is that the DROM is getting the same errors. But I am not sure if that can be true because then the DROM would not be able to write to the diagnostic LEDs either (and the SROM wouldn't be able to load the DROM, presumably). > > You could check if flashbus is mapped by peeking at bank 8 memory > controller registers and seeing if the contents provide the necessary wiring > (in particular if bit #0 aka `s8_Valid' in the 16-bit word at > 0x180000b00 is 1). These registers are listed in the same manual -- with a > further reference to the (rather fat) memory controller manual. If not, then > you'd have to set them yourself. There could be PALcode entry points to > access flashbus too I suppose, although regrettably my Alpha-fu is not so > deep as to know this offhand. I need to understand more about the Alpha architecture to understand this, but I will check. All I can say is that I did try to read the bank 8 base address register and I did get a value, but I didn't undertand what it meant. Will do some reading. > > NB all the address space from 0x100000000 through to 0x1ffffffff is > uncacheable it would seem, so no need to be concerned about this part. > Thanks Rob From erik at baigar.de Tue Apr 26 04:32:47 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 11:32:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Vaisala SPT11A reader (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: <01d401d19f86$845c98b0$8d15ca10$@gmail.com> References: <01d401d19f86$845c98b0$8d15ca10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Paul, thanks for your email - I acquired the reader several years ago and did quite a lot of experiments to figure out how to use it with the original firmware SPTS11, 2.02, 5289 but I never got an answer from the reader. So the project of Jim to read in the DG tapes was the reason I needed to address this issue. For your (and the communities) convenience I placed the original firmware (27C256 type EPROM)... http://www.baigar.de/electronics/PTR-SPTS11-2.02-5289.bin ...and my new one (also 27C256)... http://www.baigar.de/electronics/PTR-SPTS11-EB1.01.hex ...onto my server. My new firmware just sends out the data read via the serial port at 9600, 8N1. A welcome messages tests the serial communication on starting and during this time the red LED is on. On getting ready the green LED takes over and the yellow one shows the state of the sprocket input: For each byte read this LED flashes. At 9600 the serial port is always faster than you can pull the tape through the reader, so I do not expect the red LED (indicate a buffer overflow, byte lost) come on during normal operation... The pinout of the Sub-D9 male plug is as usual on serial ports: 5: GND, 2: Data from reader to PC, 3: Data from PC to reader (not used in my firmware, but original expects some start/config command here) additionally 7: DC input to reader (in my case 9V). Hope this helps, best regards, Erik. On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Paul Birkel wrote: > Eric; > > Would you please share your firmware updates, and any other information that > you've gleaned regarding the Vaisala SPT11A reader? I recently acquired one > of these as well but haven't yet started on reverse-engineering it into > something useful Would prefer to leverage your experience, if you please > :->. > > Good health to You and Yours! > > paul > (from Maryland, USA) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Erik Baigar > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 11:42 AM > To: jim s; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: Sherman Foy > Subject: Re: Data General Nova Star Trek > > > Hi Jim, > > regarding reading the StarTrek paper tapes I spent some time on the weekend > to rework my SPT11A manual reader - I got this from an eBay auction and it > was an accessory for some military receiver (probalby to read in some > codes). It had a fimrwaere which refused to communicate with a simple > terminal program, so I reverse en- gineered the hardware and replaced the > original ROM it by an own firmware which simply sends the contents read from > PPT to the PC via its RS232C... > > http://www.baigar.de/vintage/SPT11A-mod-Internal.jpg > > So I'd offer sending this to you as an item on loan to read in your tapes > and you return it afterwards? I tested it with some data and it works well > (just slowly pull the paper tape through the reader and use e.g. putty to > log the binary serial output). After turning on the reader there is a short > welcome message to verify the serial connection (9600,8N1). > > The only question is, whether you can handle the EU style power supply shown > in the picture... > > http://www.baigar.de/vintage/SPT11A-mod.jpg > > I ordered USB->RS232C converters and if you have some more time, I'd attach > one of them to the reader not only doing conversion but also supplying the > converter with power from the PC. > Addidionally you should send me your physical address via PM so I can > prepare for shipping... > > Best regards from Germany, > > Erik. > > ----- > From erik at baigar.de Tue Apr 26 04:34:46 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 11:34:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek In-Reply-To: <1087156665.1795523.1461642071284.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1087156665.1795523.1461642071284.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1087156665.1795523.1461642071284.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, Dear Sherman, thanks for your email (and the address via PM). I will prepare the reader for shipping tomorrow. I will ship it with the power supply and the adapter-cable attached, so you can plug it directly into the PC. The supply is wide-range, so it will support 115VAC directly, but you will need some "means" to connect mains to it. I am sure, you will be able to handle this ;-) Looking forward to hear on the results (an getting back the reader after you completed your job) and wish good luck in reading the tapes... Best regards, Erik. On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Sherman Foy wrote: > have discussed w/ Jim: I have a 240 Euro connector bench transformer meant for this. > From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 05:01:18 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 06:01:18 -0400 Subject: Vaisala SPT11A reader (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <01d401d19f86$845c98b0$8d15ca10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01f601d19fa2$9451c440$bcf54cc0$@gmail.com> Thanks Erik; very helpful. For reference, mine also shares the same firmware revision. Can you share your source code as well? -----Original Message----- From: Erik Baigar [mailto:erik at baigar.de] Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 5:33 AM To: Paul Birkel Cc: jwsmail at jwsss.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org; shermanfoy at att.net Subject: Vaisala SPT11A reader (was Data General Nova Star Trek) Dear Paul, thanks for your email - I acquired the reader several years ago and did quite a lot of experiments to figure out how to use it with the original firmware SPTS11, 2.02, 5289 but I never got an answer from the reader. So the project of Jim to read in the DG tapes was the reason I needed to address this issue. For your (and the communities) convenience I placed the original firmware (27C256 type EPROM)... http://www.baigar.de/electronics/PTR-SPTS11-2.02-5289.bin ...and my new one (also 27C256)... http://www.baigar.de/electronics/PTR-SPTS11-EB1.01.hex ...onto my server. My new firmware just sends out the data read via the serial port at 9600, 8N1. A welcome messages tests the serial communication on starting and during this time the red LED is on. On getting ready the green LED takes over and the yellow one shows the state of the sprocket input: For each byte read this LED flashes. At 9600 the serial port is always faster than you can pull the tape through the reader, so I do not expect the red LED (indicate a buffer overflow, byte lost) come on during normal operation... The pinout of the Sub-D9 male plug is as usual on serial ports: 5: GND, 2: Data from reader to PC, 3: Data from PC to reader (not used in my firmware, but original expects some start/config command here) additionally 7: DC input to reader (in my case 9V). Hope this helps, best regards, Erik. On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Paul Birkel wrote: > Eric; > > Would you please share your firmware updates, and any other > information that you've gleaned regarding the Vaisala SPT11A reader? > I recently acquired one of these as well but haven't yet started on > reverse-engineering it into something useful Would prefer to leverage > your experience, if you please :->. > > Good health to You and Yours! > > paul > (from Maryland, USA) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Erik > Baigar > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 11:42 AM > To: jim s; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: Sherman Foy > Subject: Re: Data General Nova Star Trek > > > Hi Jim, > > regarding reading the StarTrek paper tapes I spent some time on the > weekend to rework my SPT11A manual reader - I got this from an eBay > auction and it was an accessory for some military receiver (probalby > to read in some codes). It had a fimrwaere which refused to > communicate with a simple terminal program, so I reverse en- gineered > the hardware and replaced the original ROM it by an own firmware which > simply sends the contents read from PPT to the PC via its RS232C... > > http://www.baigar.de/vintage/SPT11A-mod-Internal.jpg > > So I'd offer sending this to you as an item on loan to read in your > tapes and you return it afterwards? I tested it with some data and it > works well (just slowly pull the paper tape through the reader and use > e.g. putty to log the binary serial output). After turning on the > reader there is a short welcome message to verify the serial connection (9600,8N1). > > The only question is, whether you can handle the EU style power supply > shown in the picture... > > http://www.baigar.de/vintage/SPT11A-mod.jpg > > I ordered USB->RS232C converters and if you have some more time, I'd > attach one of them to the reader not only doing conversion but also > supplying the converter with power from the PC. > Addidionally you should send me your physical address via PM so I can > prepare for shipping... > > Best regards from Germany, > > Erik. > > ----- > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 26 08:42:47 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 06:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <571ECDAB.1020200@pico-systems.com> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <571E4858.4070401@pico-systems.com> <571E5427.5050708@sydex.com> <571ECDAB.1020200@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Jon Elson wrote: > On 04/25/2016 12:42 PM, geneb wrote: >> On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> On 04/25/2016 09:39 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >>> >>>> I used it to port a couple of my programs from (Ughhh!) Borland >>>> Turbo Pascal for Windows to Linux, and it was a surprisingly painless >>>> job. The only thing I notice is the error messages look exactly like >>>> Borland error messages on DOS. (Error 132 at 1B7F sort of thing.) >>> >>> Historically, one of my pet peeves with compiler writers. IBM 704 >>> FORTRAN had better and clearer diagnostics than many of today's compilers. >>> >> Well keep in mind that given that error, you could stick that address into >> the "Find Error Location" of the IDE and it would drop you right on the >> line of code that triggered the error. >> > Yes, does that work with FPC on Linux? > It's possible. FPC uses GDB for the debugger - you'd have to check to see if the text mode IDE has the error location feature that the Turbo Pascal IDE had. I'm not sure about Lazarus as I don't use it often. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 09:08:37 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:08:37 -0600 (MDT) Subject: The Ivory Tower saga was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <8A53BFF5-6504-43CA-8725-286858731FC7@gmail.com> References: <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <8A53BFF5-6504-43CA-8725-286858731FC7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Raymond Wiker wrote: > If you think that Lisp is an "academic only language", you probably need > to spend a little time with actually using it. Thanks for making my point for me. -Swift From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 09:26:11 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 16:26:11 +0200 Subject: Fast Unibus Sync Serial? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-04-26 3:45 GMT+02:00 Ken Seefried : > Is there an equivalent to the DSV11 for Unibus? Or other quick Unibus > sync serial that my Google-fu isn't good enough to find? The DMC11 > looks like it can do 56Kbps over V.35, which is better than the > 19.2kbps on the DMF32, but it would be useful to be able to push to > 256Kbps (or faster). I'm particularly interested in doing HDLC. > DMP11? Seems to be able to do 500 kbit/s full duplex and 1 Mbit/s half duplex. It consists of two cards M8203 and M8207. I have a few that I cannot find any use for... /Mattis > > KJ > From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 09:41:23 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 16:41:23 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 25 April 2016 at 19:00, Swift Griggs wrote: > Hmmmmm. Are you sure your personal interest in the topic hasn't pushed you > to be a little sensitive about it ? Yes. Because I was a support guy, and now am a writer, not a programmer. I have been researching programming languages and operating systems for decades now. The #1 problem of the IT industry is not any language, not processor design, not software or OS design. It's culture. Computers are built by people, and software for them is written by people. And as people, we live in cultures. Some things are cool, or desirable, or trendy. Some things give quick results, or are fun, or are inherently fast but risky and unstable. Others are hard, or are from the wrong college or company or country, or need too much up-front effort, or are slower but safe. And consistently, for decades, technically-illiterate managers have chosen to spend money on things that are cheap but quick, that give quick and dirty fixes. As a result, what we have today are the descendants, not of the best computers we have developed, but of the quickest-and-dirtiest lash-ups that could be made to work long enough to get through a sales demo. As a result, there's been a mass-extinction event of actual good code written by smart people who defy convention. Instead, we have a very small number of architectures and OSes, and layered on top of these unsound foundations are a profusion of tools which try to piecemeal fix the problems of the layers underneath -- and inevitably failing. But that's what we use, and so people choose sides and mock the other side. Unix people mock Windows people, and vice versa. Perl people dislike Python, Python folk don't see the need for Ruby. C types look down on all of them and desperately play down the stories of buffer overflows and stack smashing. And the industry is now huge, much comprised of people trying to fix the screw-ups of others in other places. Massive amounts of code and resources are devoted to keeping unstable stacks of unstable code in unstable languages more or less standing and running, at least in aggregate. Swift, you have provided a superb example of this mockery. And now you've been called on it, you are, in natural human fashion, lashing out in return. It's natural, it's human, and it's exactly why we have the stinking pile of crap that we do today instead of tools that actually work. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 26 09:51:35 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:51:35 -0400 Subject: Real OS (was: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <571E8899.5090209@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571E6C2F.6000100@sydex.com> <571E8899.5090209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <92F761E0-3562-4065-8DF4-4D9A04A88B83@comcast.net> > On Apr 25, 2016, at 5:14 PM, ben wrote: > > But for the most part Common Folk did not have the resources > I suspect for REAL programing languages, because those require > a REAL OS to run with, and after the 8086 the Newer chips became > too complex to use, and the 68000 was only 16 bit addressing. > Then Windows came out and NON-DIS-CLOSER become the norm. I'm not sure what a "real OS" is, nor why it is required to run a "real programming language" (whatever that is). Is FORTH a real language? You can run FORTH on pretty much anything, and porting it to a new architecture may take only a few days. On complex machines (like 64 bit MIPS) it might take a little longer. If you want to replace the boot ROM as well, then things get complex, because you may have to do stuff like initialize the memory controller. But all that sort of thing is still done routinely. Also, you can find any number of lightweight OS for lots of machines, environments where even languages like C++ are readily available. Or you can write your own, as the team I work with has done; if you have specific and well-bounded requirements that's not a big deal. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 26 09:57:37 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:57:37 -0400 Subject: Fast Unibus Sync Serial? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Apr 26, 2016, at 10:26 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > 2016-04-26 3:45 GMT+02:00 Ken Seefried : > >> Is there an equivalent to the DSV11 for Unibus? Or other quick Unibus >> sync serial that my Google-fu isn't good enough to find? The DMC11 >> looks like it can do 56Kbps over V.35, which is better than the >> 19.2kbps on the DMF32, but it would be useful to be able to push to >> 256Kbps (or faster). I'm particularly interested in doing HDLC. >> > > DMP11? > > Seems to be able to do 500 kbit/s full duplex and 1 Mbit/s half duplex. It > consists of two cards M8203 and M8207. I have a few that I cannot find any > use for... DMP11 does DDCMP. If you want HDLC, options are more limited. The obvious question is "why HDLC?" HDLC is ok so far as it goes, but DDCMP is superior in every respect. The only reason to use HDLC is that you need to talk something that can't be made to speak DDCMP. paul From erik at baigar.de Tue Apr 26 10:02:11 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 17:02:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Sherman! On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Sherman Foy wrote: > under the heading of d??j?? vu, if this unit is a Rockwell Collins mil > hand paper tape puller, my old roommate ran the qualification tests on Hm, the reader is a Vaisala SPT11A and I searched the internet for readers from Rockwell Collins. The images appearing, are not related to the Vaisala box, so I think they are different devices... > Harbor & Warner facility. They drove around the parking lot in the bed > of pickup trucks pulling tape and loading systems w/ potholes & > speedbumps in the way. So some mil-spec testing using equipment readily available. Apart from Rolm mil-spec computers, my hobby is airborne vintage avionics and I know that Ferranti tested their intertial navigations systems for aircraft also by torturing them in a car driving around Edinburgh in Scotland... Best regards, Erik. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 10:21:41 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 09:21:41 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX Message-ID: Has anyone ever seen either A/UX or AIX running on an Apple Network Server or Apple Workgroup Server? I had several hundred AIX machines running in a server farm for a while, but even the oldest was POWER4 based, and I've only done a bit of legacy support for PPC60x-based RS/6000 systems. I don't belive I've ever seen an ANS or AWS IRL. I'm curious what the last version of AIX that will run on them. I'm guessing 4.x. I'm also curious if there is one machine that can run A/UX, AIX, MacOS, and NetBSD. Here's a fun fact to know and tell. In addition to an SGI Irix screen running the "fsn" tool in the movie Jurassic Park, there were several screenshots of a workstation in that same room/scene running A/UX. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 10:51:19 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 09:51:19 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Erik Baigar wrote: > Apart from Rolm mil-spec computers, my hobby is airborne vintage avionics > and I know that Ferranti tested their intertial navigations systems for > aircraft also by torturing them in a car driving around Edinburgh in > Scotland... That is an interesting hobby. How did you get into that and how do you actually test/use the stuff you tinker with? Are you a pilot? What are some more interesting facets of the avionics gear you collect? Thanks, Swift From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 26 11:41:47 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 11:41:47 -0500 Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> > On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Erik Baigar wrote: >> Apart from Rolm mil-spec computers, my hobby is airborne vintage avionics >> and I know that Ferranti tested their intertial navigations systems for >> aircraft also by torturing them in a car driving around Edinburgh in >> Scotland... > Erik is not the only one. Check out Tatiana van Vark. Here's a picture of what is in her DINING ROOM, the complete electronics suite from a Vulcan bomber! There's also a video of her picking up a Litton inertial measuring unit and moving it around, there's 3 racks of gear to support it. Jon From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 12:14:07 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 11:14:07 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Jon Elson wrote: > Erik is not the only one. Check out Tatiana van Vark. Excellent! I've actually wondered who in the world might do something like this. Now I know. Like I said, what a cool hobby. > Here's a picture of what is in her DINING ROOM, the complete electronics > suite from a Vulcan bomber! That is one of the coolest things I've ever seen. I can identify perhaps *one* of those devices. I'm guessing the little round CRT is for radar. That's it! Somewhere, someday, some flight sim zealot is going to break down in tears of joy and jealousy when they see that setup. > There's also a video of her picking up a Litton inertial measuring unit > and moving it around, there's 3 racks of gear to support it. As in 3 EIA/TIA racks fulla computer kit ? Daaaaamn son. That's what you call a passion for your hobby. Hopefully, being female she has less problems with her SO freaking out, but who knows, perhaps she married an OCD butler. It's tough to escape the laws of the universe sometimes. :-) -Swift From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 26 12:21:51 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 13:21:51 -0400 Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 26, 2016, at 1:14 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Jon Elson wrote: >> Erik is not the only one. Check out Tatiana van Vark. > > Excellent! I've actually wondered who in the world might do something like > this. Now I know. Like I said, what a cool hobby. > >> Here's a picture of what is in her DINING ROOM, the complete electronics >> suite from a Vulcan bomber! > > That is one of the coolest things I've ever seen. I can identify perhaps > *one* of those devices. I'm guessing the little round CRT is for radar. > That's it! Somewhere, someday, some flight sim zealot is going to break > down in tears of joy and jealousy when they see that setup. > >> There's also a video of her picking up a Litton inertial measuring unit >> and moving it around, there's 3 racks of gear to support it. > > As in 3 EIA/TIA racks fulla computer kit ? Daaaaamn son. That's what you > call a passion for your hobby. Hopefully, being female she has less > problems with her SO freaking out, but who knows, perhaps she married an OCD > butler. It's tough to escape the laws of the universe sometimes. :-) From the looks of other items on her website, that collection of airplane gear is the *least* strange thing she has. Stuff like an encryption machine that isn't exactly an Enigma, but based on the same principles -- and much nicer looking. You can find more here: http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/projects.html and here: http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/vanvark.htm paul From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 12:34:23 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 11:34:23 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > From the looks of other items on her website, that collection of airplane > gear is the *least* strange thing she has. Holy smokes I just checked and you are right! > Stuff like an encryption machine that isn't exactly an Enigma, but based > on the same principles -- and much nicer looking. Just about everything on that page is drool-worthy or cool in some extreme way. That crytograph does indeed rock and "The Inertial Navigator Platform" looks like an artifact from The 5th Element. What's more incredible about that machine is she didn't rescue it... she *made* it, along with almost all that other stuff. Outrageous! > You can find more here: http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/projects.html and here: > http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/vanvark.htm Heh, there goes my afternoon.... -Swift From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 26 12:49:53 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 13:49:53 -0400 Subject: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 26, 2016, at 1:34 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > ... > Just about everything on that page is drool-worthy or cool in some extreme > way. That crytograph does indeed rock and "The Inertial Navigator Platform" > looks like an artifact from The 5th Element. What's more incredible about > that machine is she didn't rescue it... she *made* it, along with almost > all that other stuff. Outrageous! I like http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvvd/viewer223.html . I have that tube and bits of a radio (original) that uses it. That tube is interesting: it's the world's first integrated circuit. Yes, a hollow state integrated circuit. I describe it that way because it is a complete subsystem (in this case, a complete 3 stage audio amplifier) rather than just something like a dual-triode tube where the connecting components are still external. paul From erik at baigar.de Tue Apr 26 12:39:33 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 19:39:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Erik Baigar wrote: >> Apart from Rolm mil-spec computers, my hobby is airborne vintage avionics >> and I know that Ferranti tested their intertial navigations systems for >> aircraft also by torturing them in a car driving around Edinburgh in >> Scotland... > > That is an interesting hobby. How did you get into that and how do you > actually test/use the stuff you tinker with? Hi Swift, I got into this hobby via the computer side - everything started as I wanted to have a computer using core memory and so I bought a black box from the Tornado aircraft which contained core. This started a 10 year yourney of analyzing it, decyphering the command set and building tools to program it. Only years later I got the information, that the box is a 12 bit version of the famous Elliott 900 family which was "popular" in the UK in the 1960ties. I have a project page on this: http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/index.html > Are you a pilot? No, I am just keeping this stuff with two goals: (1) Keeping it in working order to preserve some strange unknown technology and (2) learn how the guys of the 1970tis squeezed out amazing things of this technology. > more interesting facets of the avionics gear you collect? Well in my opinion the inertial navigation systems are the most complex and advanced pieces of equipment available: They combine outstanding mechanics and mechanical, analog-electronic and digital computing... Apart from this I am fascinated from graphics generators which (e.g. for the head up displays of the 1970ties) achieved vector graphics update rates of 50Hz an more (circles and lines) in 512x512 pixel resolution without having memory to store a single frame. I have a logbook on my activities, but of course I should do more for "marketing" all this stuff... http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/TimeLine.html#HDDsim Erik. From lists at loomcom.com Tue Apr 26 12:54:47 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 12:54:47 -0500 Subject: The Ivory Tower saga was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <8A53BFF5-6504-43CA-8725-286858731FC7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160426175447.GA25037@loomcom.com> * On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 08:08:37AM -0600, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Raymond Wiker wrote: > > If you think that Lisp is an "academic only language", you probably need > > to spend a little time with actually using it. > > Thanks for making my point for me. That seems like a "begging the question" logical fallacy, to me. * Your assertion is that anyone who likes Lisp must be a zealot. * Someone else asserts that it is not the case. * You use that assertion to prove your point. FWIW, I'm not a Lisp programmer, though I've dabbled a very, very little with Scheme, Common Lisp, and Clojure. They're interesting, and I've seen very complex systems built with them. I believe they are suitable for vigorous real-world use. I will fully confess that the Lisp community has been off-putting in some ways, and I *have* seen Lisp zealotry (the "smug lisp weenie" epithet comes to mind). But that does not mean that the language itself should be totally dismissed, it just means the community has ugly warts. > -Swift -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 12:54:48 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 11:54:48 -0600 (MDT) Subject: SATA SSDs for SGIs using ACARD adapters Message-ID: I use Samsung 850 Pro disks exclusively. The main one I tested with was 128GB. 80-pin SCA hot swap Ultra160 SCSI to SATA: This one I've tested in my O2 and Tezro: http://www.acard.com/english/fb01-product.jsp?idno_no=240&prod_no=ARS-2160H&type1_idno=6&ino=43 50-pin ultra-scsi to SATA: This one I've tested in two Indys (R4600 200Mhz and R5k 180Mhz) also a Challenge S with an R4600 200Mhz CPU): http://www.acard.com/english/fb01-product.jsp?idno_no=249&prod_no=ARS-2000SUP&type1_idno=6&ino=43 There is also a 68-pin variant. I've yet to try one because I will probably get rid of most of my Sun gear at some point in the future. However, I'd be interested to know if they work well or not. I still play with older SPARC boxes from time to time. I've upgraded many of my SGI's to use SSD disks. You don't see tremendous improvements in throughput (though it does help some). My results testing with 'fio' showed about 10% throughput increase on most operations overall. However, the latency becomes much lower. This gives the machine a much more snappy feel if you use them as desktops. Web browsing is especially ameliorated (as in, you can almost do it, har har). On my Tezro the results were pretty dramatic. The quad R16k CPUs still keep up pretty well with my "modern" PCs for most operations (including browsing). Using internal SSDs makes the anecdotal experience tangibly improved. I'm curious if anyone has used one of the 50-pin units to upgrade an Amiga 3000 or older mac. I'm thinking of other machines like one of the slimmer and more interesting AlphaStations might also be fun to try (or a newer Multia with the SCSI adapter). Did Atari ST's have SCSI? Without looking it up, I'm guessing so. That'd be another fun one to test. Also before someone pipes up saying "The older SCSI interface is going to limit you too much to feel the difference" let me just say that's NOT been my experience. As I mentioned, you might not get much throughput increase (though it will usually improve some), but the numbers don't lie on the latency which drops outta sight into the sub-1ms range most of the time. You feel that on desktops, bigtime. Also, if you say "that's not stock! It's not original anymore!" Please let me just respond now and also say "Yes, I know that, thank you." Thanks, Swift From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Apr 26 13:01:01 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 18:01:01 +0000 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <78277B27-7880-4C88-B01E-9DC68369898B@swri.edu> On Apr 25, 2016, at 4:46 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > ...To tell you the truth, I'm not very > likely to hire anyone who isn't conversant with at least half a > dozen different languages. ... Although I agree with almost everything Brian said in his post, I?ll posit at least one exception here. There exist languages (the Mathematica programming language is the one I?m familiar with) which permit programming in multiple different styles - procedural, list-processing, object-oriented, etc.. I would be pretty willing to consider a candidate who understood the differences, and could select the appropriate programming style for the task at hand, even if they were familiar with only the one ?language?. But, it would not be trivial to demonstrate that the candidate actually had that breadth of understanding; production of sample code in a half-dozen languages would be an easier metric to apply, so maybe my exception is not useful. - Mark From erik at baigar.de Tue Apr 26 12:51:49 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 19:51:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > Erik is not the only one. Check out Tatiana van Vark. Here's a picture of > what is in her DINING ROOM, the complete electronics suite from a Vulcan > bomber! Yes, Tatiana is the queen of collecting this kind of stuff and she has an excellent page! > There's also a video of her picking up a Litton inertial measuring unit and > moving it around, there's 3 racks of gear to support it. Well, I have a similar video of my "baby" which is somewhat newer - look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQqfxiGgd8 beginning minute 5:00. The LN-3 you can see in Tatiana's video is from the 1960ties (F4, F104 and many others) and all computation is done mechanically using gears and ball resolvers for Sinus/Cosinus. In the FIN-1010 shown in my video being from the 1970ties, some calculation (e.g. integration of rate to orientation) is still done mechanically within the gyroscopes, platform alignment and maintaining the position of the platform as well as flipping the gimbals is accomplished by an analog computer (OpAmps and so on). Last but not least a bitserial digital computer is supervising the analog computer and changing its "program flow". Additionally the digital machine contains routines for calibration of gyro drift etc. The digital computer also solves the navigation equations of direction and distance to goal. So the fascinating thing is the combination of different technologies and the outstanding precision needed and achieved by the mechanical instruments. Altough the digital machine consists of only ~200 TTL chips, it is a 32 bit machine and delivers 33 navigation oututs per second. BTW: This enabled the Tornado aircraft to fly autonomously 200 ft above ground at supersonic speeds passing certain preprogrammed waypoints... Erik. From erik at baigar.de Tue Apr 26 12:53:53 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 19:53:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Jon Elson wrote: > problems with her SO freaking out, but who knows, perhaps she married an OCD > butler. It's tough to escape the laws of the universe sometimes. :-) And I'd be interested in whether she had some help in maintaining all this outstanding equipment ;-) For one perrson alone this is really incredible! From erik at baigar.de Tue Apr 26 12:58:00 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 19:58:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, after another test using a different PC and paper tape, the paper tape reader is en route to you. I declared it as "paper tape reader for hobby use, value USD10" and that it will "return within 4 weeks". Hopefully this will prevent you from having to get into toruble with the custom office... Best regards, Erik. On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Erik Baigar wrote: > > Hi Sherman! > > On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Sherman Foy wrote: > >> under the heading of d??j?? vu, if this unit is a Rockwell Collins mil hand >> paper tape puller, my old roommate ran the qualification tests on > > Hm, the reader is a Vaisala SPT11A and I searched the internet > for readers from Rockwell Collins. The images appearing, are not > related to the Vaisala box, so I think they are different devices... > >> Harbor & Warner facility. They drove around the parking lot in the bed of >> pickup trucks pulling tape and loading systems w/ potholes & speedbumps in >> the way. > > So some mil-spec testing using equipment readily available. Apart from > Rolm mil-spec computers, my hobby is airborne vintage avionics and I > know that Ferranti tested their intertial navigations systems for > aircraft also by torturing them in a car driving around Edinburgh > in Scotland... > > Best regards, > > Erik. > From guy at cuillin.org.uk Tue Apr 26 13:33:58 2016 From: guy at cuillin.org.uk (Guy Dawson) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 19:33:58 +0100 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <571E9EE3.2070607@gmail.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> <571E9EE3.2070607@gmail.com> Message-ID: I bought a 32016 Cambridge Coprocessor back in the day. It's in my loft. On 25 April 2016 at 23:49, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/25/2016 10:02 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> I meant to develop this point slightly, and did in a blog post, here: >> >> http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/48593.html >> >> But in the meantime, it kept the 6502-based, resolutely-8-bit BBC >> Micro line alive with updates and new models, including ROM-based >> terminals and machines with a range of built-in coprocessors: faster >> 6502-family chips for power users, Z80s for CP/M, Intel's 80186 for >> kinda-sorta PC compatibility, the NatSemi 32016 with PANOS for >> ill-defined scientific computing, and finally, an ARM copro before the >> new ARM-based machines were ready. >> > > I'm not sure if a user could go out and buy a 32016 copro, though. The > only ones I've ever been aware of have come from educational institutions > and I get the impression they were employed more for testing the market > than anything. > > What I dismissed as one of the ROM-based terminals was the Acorn >> Communicator, a single-box machine (i.e. main board in the keyboard, >> like an Amiga 500 or original 520 ST.) >> > > I had a couple of those, and I know one went to a museum, but I'm not > entirely sure what I did with the other! I may still have it. > > cheers > > Jules > > -- 4.4 > 5.4 From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 26 13:38:08 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 14:38:08 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <78277B27-7880-4C88-B01E-9DC68369898B@swri.edu> References: <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <78277B27-7880-4C88-B01E-9DC68369898B@swri.edu> Message-ID: <20160426183808.GA29998@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tapley, Mark once stated: > On Apr 25, 2016, at 4:46 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > > > ...To tell you the truth, I'm not very likely to hire anyone who isn't > > conversant with at least half a dozen different languages. ... > > Although I agree with almost everything Brian said in his post, I?ll posit > at least one exception here. There exist languages (the Mathematica > programming language is the one I?m familiar with) which permit > programming in multiple different styles - procedural, list-processing, > object-oriented, etc.. I would be pretty willing to consider a candidate > who understood the differences, and could select the appropriate > programming style for the task at hand, even if they were familiar with > only the one ?language?. But, it would not be trivial to demonstrate that > the candidate actually had that breadth of understanding; production of > sample code in a half-dozen languages would be an easier metric to apply, > so maybe my exception is not useful. There are two major language families: declarative and imperative. I feel ike a programmer should be familiar with the two families. Declarative langauges are where you describe *what* you want and leave it up to the computer (technically, the implementation) to figure out how to obtain what you want. A few langauges under this family: Prolog make (and yes, make is a declarative language) SQL Imperative is where you describe *how* to do something to the computer and hope it gives you what you want. Under this family there are three sub-families: Procedural---your typical programming languages, C, Pascal, BASIC, COBOL, Fortran, are all examples of procedural languages and we pretty much know and understand these languages. Functional---still a type of imperative, but more centered around code (functions actually) and side effects are very controlled (and globals right out!). Global variables are difficult to instantiate (if at all). Examples are Haskel, F#, ML, Hope. Object oriented---again, another form of imperative, but centered around data instead of functions (it's the flip-side of functional). Examples of this are Smalltalk, Java, C#. There are languages that can have multiple features, like C++ (procedural and object-oriented), Lisp (declarative and imperative), Forth (declarative and imperative), Python (procedural, functional, object-oriented). -spc (Who likes classical software ... ) From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 26 13:44:49 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 14:44:49 -0400 Subject: The Ivory Tower saga was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <8A53BFF5-6504-43CA-8725-286858731FC7@gmail.com> References: <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <8A53BFF5-6504-43CA-8725-286858731FC7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160426184449.GB29998@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Raymond Wiker once stated: > > > On 26 Apr 2016, at 05:39 , Swift Griggs wrote: > > > > It's probably a bad idea to dismiss anyone's experience when you haven't > > "walked a mile in his moccasins.", including mine. Though my attempt may > > have been inarticulate, I was talking about my own experience in academia > > and not trying to pick a fight with every LISP coder on the planet. If I > > was more clever, I'd have probably had the foresight to say simply say > > $academic_only_language instead of using the pit-bull attack trigger word: > > LISP. > > If you think that Lisp is an "academic only language", you probably need > to spend a little time with actually using it. AutoCAD uses LISP as a scripting language. EMACS also has a LISP. Paul Graham (of Y-Combinator) also made his money on LISP (Viaweb, which later became Yahoo Stores). So yes, it's not an "academic only" language, but it is different enough to make it difficult to find programmers. Because of the nature of LISP (LISP code is itself stored as a LISP object) it becomes easy to algorithmetically manipulate LISP code that the default method of implementation is to write a domain-specific language (DSL) that solves the problem you want trivially, therefore if you use LISP, you end up with something that may look like LISP but isn't (if that makes sense). -spc (Who has a love/hate relationship with LISP---I love to hate it (no, no, I kid! I love the concept, but hate the language [1])) [1] I have the same issues with Forth [2] [2] Which is a backwards LISP. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 26 13:54:51 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 14:54:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) Message-ID: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Erik Baigar > I wanted to have a computer using core memory and so I bought a black > box from the Tornado aircraft which contained core. This started a 10 > year yourney of analyzing it, decyphering the command set and building > tools to program it. ... I have a project page on this: > http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/index.html I am absolutely, completely, blown away. This has got to be one of the most amazing projects I have ever come across. I'm utterly awed by the work you did to reverse engineer this thing. Everyone should check out this site - especially the detailed time-line Noel From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 26 14:07:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 12:07:12 -0700 Subject: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <571FBC60.2010607@sydex.com> On 04/26/2016 10:49 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > That tube is interesting: it's the world's first integrated circuit. > Yes, a hollow state integrated circuit. I describe it that way > because it is a complete subsystem (in this case, a complete 3 stage > audio amplifier) rather than just something like a dual-triode tube > where the connecting components are still external. Reminds me of the time I got my hands on a 1940s 3A8GT - battery pentode, triode, double diode in one envelope. Not nearly as interesting as the one in in the Dutch model, though. What was the highest level of integration in a single envelope? I seem to recall that some of the European taxes were based on the number of tubes in a radio, so there was a strong impetus to integrate. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 26 14:40:50 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:40:50 -0400 Subject: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: <571FBC60.2010607@sydex.com> References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> <571FBC60.2010607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A23523C-56E9-49C8-B646-36AC8B4E863E@comcast.net> > On Apr 26, 2016, at 3:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 04/26/2016 10:49 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> That tube is interesting: it's the world's first integrated circuit. >> Yes, a hollow state integrated circuit. I describe it that way >> because it is a complete subsystem (in this case, a complete 3 stage >> audio amplifier) rather than just something like a dual-triode tube >> where the connecting components are still external. > > Reminds me of the time I got my hands on a 1940s 3A8GT - battery > pentode, triode, double diode in one envelope. Not nearly as > interesting as the one in in the Dutch model, though. > > What was the highest level of integration in a single envelope? I seem > to recall that some of the European taxes were based on the number of > tubes in a radio, so there was a strong impetus to integrate. The artist who built that radio is Dutch; the tube is German (Loewe). I know of two of these IC tubes: 2HF and 3NF, which stands for "2 stage high frequency amplifier" (i.e., RF amplifier) and "3 stage low frequency amplifier" (i.e., audio amplifier). In each case, these are full circuits, including all the bias resistors and coupling elements, all enclosed within the vacuum envelope. You can see them in good pictures: the passive elements are long skinny tubes, enclosed in glass to protect the vacuum. Yes, the reasoning supposedly was taxation. http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/loewe.html has some more detail, including about some other designs along these lines: a Loewe dual pentode plus triode, and a GEC photocell plus amplifier. This sort of stuff doesn't seem to be all that common; I haven't seen it elsewhere. Multiple tubes, like dual triodes or triode/heptodes are pretty common, but those are just the active part. paul From other at oryx.us Tue Apr 26 14:51:40 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 14:51:40 -0500 Subject: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <571FC6CC.2050705@oryx.us> On 04/26/16 10:21 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > Has anyone ever seen either A/UX or AIX running on an Apple Network Server > or Apple Workgroup Server? A/UX did not run on PPC hardware. The AIX that ran on ANS boxes (Apple Network Servers) was a special deviant, and, among other issues, required Apple ROMs to boot. ANS boxes were physically much closer to Apple hardware of the time vs IBM hardware. I consider this to be a good article on the ANS box: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Network_Server I don't have any additional helpful hints as to getting this special version of AIX up and running, aside from hunting down and purchasing an ANS box. If you figure out something new in regards to the ANS, or its specialized version of AIX, please share. However, A/UX - another Apple Unix that (originally) only ran on specific hardware. There is now an emulation project called "ShoeBill" that will allow you to run A/UX on top of other hardware. Hit up duckduckgo.com to search for specific details/FAQ's/etc. download (Shoebill) code from here:: https://github.com/pruten/Shoebill/ And, AIX - disclaimer - nothing modern going on here either. AIX 1.x, among other CPU's, also ran on x86 hardware. I am close to having AIX 1.x running in Bochs:: http://bochs.sourceforge.net/ On top of Oracle Solaris on x86/x64. enjoy, Jerry > I had several hundred AIX machines running in a > server farm for a while, but even the oldest was POWER4 based, and I've only > done a bit of legacy support for PPC60x-based RS/6000 systems. I don't > belive I've ever seen an ANS or AWS IRL. > > I'm curious what the last version of AIX that will run on them. I'm > guessing 4.x. I'm also curious if there is one machine that can run A/UX, > AIX, MacOS, and NetBSD. > > Here's a fun fact to know and tell. In addition to an SGI Irix screen > running the "fsn" tool in the movie Jurassic Park, there were several > screenshots of a workstation in that same room/scene running A/UX. > > -Swift > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 15:25:46 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 14:25:46 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX In-Reply-To: <571FC6CC.2050705@oryx.us> References: <571FC6CC.2050705@oryx.us> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote: > > Has anyone ever seen either A/UX or AIX running on an Apple Network Server > > or Apple Workgroup Server? > A/UX did not run on PPC hardware. The AIX that ran on ANS boxes (Apple > Network Servers) was a special deviant, and, among other issues, required > Apple ROMs to boot. I'm curious if there were the ROMs on a discrete board or embedded on the mobo? I didn't realize it was only for M68k systems. I guess there won't be any system that could run A/UX with AIX, then, since AIX from that era will want a PPC CPU. > I don't have any additional helpful hints as to getting this special > version of AIX up and running, aside from hunting down and purchasing an > ANS box. I'd probably only do that if I could get one with the media. A/UX sounds a little more interesting to me anyhow at the moment. I've had years of AIX experience, nowadays. I've never touched A/UX. > If you figure out something new in regards to the ANS, or its specialized > version of AIX, please share. Will do. > A/UX - another Apple Unix that (originally) only ran on specific hardware. > There is now an emulation project called "ShoeBill" that will allow you to > run A/UX on top of other hardware. I've seen that project before. The only issue is that you need a legal ROM image and I don't have one. If I had a machine to dump the ROM from, I'd probably just use that, instead. The project is still really neat, though. The other issue is that the guy who wrote it got hired by a company who is probably having him write emulation code (Stromsys ?) and so he can't continue the project. I've seen this happen before with people writing Alpha emulators, too. It's a shame for hobbyists, but understandable. The guy has to eat. > AIX - disclaimer - nothing modern going on here either. Hehe, careful, you don't want all the AIX fans coming out of the woodwork on the attack. AIX is one that I had heard some negativity about when I first started learning it (I regularly learn new Unix variants just for fun). Someone called it "Ain't Unix" (and for heaven's sake it wasn't me). Now, I can see it's strengths and weaknesses. I won't enumerate any since folks will go ballistic, I'm sure. I'll just say this, it's got some decent attributes that might surprise people who hate it. It still not my favorite, but it grew on me. > AIX 1.x, among other CPU's, also ran on x86 hardware. I am close to > having AIX 1.x running in Bochs:: Yes, I remember reading about AIX running on some special class of PS/2 machines. I've seen photos of AIX floppy disks for that platform. However, I wonder if it goes out to check your BIOS or some microchannel jiggery pokery to see if you have an "entitlement" to run it. If you find a way to make it work and a source for the software, please let me know, too. Thanks! -Swift From erik at baigar.de Tue Apr 26 15:28:57 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 22:28:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I am absolutely, completely, blown away. This has got to be one of the most > amazing projects I have ever come across. I'm utterly awed by the work you > did to reverse engineer this thing. > > Everyone should check out this site - especially the detailed time-line Thanks for the compliment - great to hear, that you like the projects. It is/was not only great learning technically but also getting in touch with intersting people during the recent years. I visited the UK three times with a bias towards meeting old hands from the dawn of airborne computing which was really exciting. I am also fascinated that some of the old architectures (like the Elliott 900 which emerged in 1961) probably still serve today after 50+ years (e.g. in Tornado's auto pilot or some early B747-100s). I do not think any iWHATEVER will last longer than 20 years ;-) I think those exotic architectures/items are worth beeing preserved and documented - especially as no one else is taking care of them as e.g. is done for PDPs, Apples, HPs etc. On the world there is probably only my 12 bit freely programmable Elliott 900 still alive, I know of as little as 6 Rolms (privately owned, all variants) and less than 5 of the inertial navigators. BTW I still do not know whether the digital computer in the inertial navigation system FIN-1010 is related to any civil system made by Ferranti. I guess it is derived from the Pegasus or Argus computers and therefore may be even more archaic. As you see - the story will go on... The very best, Erik. P.S. Tribute to inertial navigation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQqfxiGgd8 From other at oryx.us Tue Apr 26 15:46:56 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:46:56 -0500 Subject: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX In-Reply-To: References: <571FC6CC.2050705@oryx.us> Message-ID: <571FD3C0.6000602@oryx.us> On 04/26/16 03:25 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > >> A/UX - another Apple Unix that (originally) only ran on specific hardware. >> There is now an emulation project called "ShoeBill" that will allow you to >> run A/UX on top of other hardware. > > I've seen that project before. The only issue is that you need a legal ROM > image and I don't have one. If I had a machine to dump the ROM from, I'd > probably just use that, instead. The project is still really neat, though. > All of this stuff, OS, ROM's, other misc code, is widely and easily available out there on the Interwebs. I won't say any more or provide any specifics, as I like being on this list and don't want to get booted for sharing locations for unlicensed software. Ultimately, it boils down to what your morals are, when using an abandoned product from a couple of decades ago for hobbyist and/or learning usage only. I'm certain that anyone here who decided to write a new software product to run their business on, that ran on top of A/UX would immediately be sending some money Apple's way. >> AIX - disclaimer - nothing modern going on here either. > > Hehe, careful, you don't want all the AIX fans coming out of the woodwork > on the attack. AIX is one that I had heard some negativity about when I > first started learning it (I regularly learn new Unix variants just for > fun). Someone called it "Ain't Unix" (and for heaven's sake it wasn't me). > Now, I can see it's strengths and weaknesses. Sorry for any misunderstanding here, you are reading something into this here that was never intended. What I mean here, unlike the other products discussed in this thread, that were dropped/discontinued after a couple of releases decades ago, AIX wasn't. I'm not up to date on the Current version of AIX, but I'm thinking 7.x, maybe 8.x???? The stuff I am playing with is 1.x, again, from a couple of decades ago, on a hardware platform that IBM abandoned. Nothing more is implied. Nothing to read between the lines. Unix is a very religious subject. My last intent is to get on someone's bad side here. Moving on, all of the AIX 1.x stuff is widely and easily available for easy download at various locations. Jerry > I won't enumerate any since > folks will go ballistic, I'm sure. I'll just say this, it's got some > decent attributes that might surprise people who hate it. It still not my > favorite, but it grew on me. > >> AIX 1.x, among other CPU's, also ran on x86 hardware. I am close to >> having AIX 1.x running in Bochs:: > > Yes, I remember reading about AIX running on some special class of PS/2 > machines. I've seen photos of AIX floppy disks for that platform. However, > I wonder if it goes out to check your BIOS or some microchannel jiggery > pokery to see if you have an "entitlement" to run it. If you find a way to > make it work and a source for the software, please let me know, too. Thanks! > > -Swift > From macro at linux-mips.org Tue Apr 26 15:01:54 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 21:01:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > One possibility is SRM unmaps them when it takes over from SROM, for > > safety maybe -- so as not to let one corrupt flash by accident easily > (BTW, I do > > recommend write-protecting flash with its jumper for these experiments -- > > with DROM not working correctly and hence no way to load SRM from a > > floppy you'd be doomed if flash broke too). The symptoms should look like > > ones you've got, though of course plain poking at the wrong area would > look > > the same. > > > I will check for unmapping, but I get a machine check when I write code > running in OpenVMS that attempts to write to the same physical location. > This assumes my code is correct of course, which is what I was trying to > verify by using the console. Well, the symptoms appear consistent then (I thought in OpenVMS you got a freeze), so I suspect my guess about unmapping is right. > This makes me wonder if the problem is that the DROM is getting the same > errors. But I am not sure if that can be true because then the DROM would > not be able to write to the diagnostic LEDs either (and the SROM wouldn't be > able to load the DROM, presumably). Correct -- if you do get a machine check as early as accessing the index register, then it looks like the glue logic for flashbus doesn't respond to a write cycle (there's no decoding enabled for the address requested) and you get a bus timeout/abort. Given that at this point you are only about to select a particular device on flashbus it would equally happen for any, including the LEDs. Unless there is a timing requirement for the data register to see an access soon enough after an index write or a bus error happens -- which I highly doubt given the crudeness of the logic (i.e. even the read/write signal is explicit rather than decoded from the data register access bus cycle). > > You could check if flashbus is mapped by peeking at bank 8 memory > > controller registers and seeing if the contents provide the necessary > wiring > > (in particular if bit #0 aka `s8_Valid' in the 16-bit word at > > 0x180000b00 is 1). These registers are listed in the same manual -- with > a > > further reference to the (rather fat) memory controller manual. If not, > then > > you'd have to set them yourself. There could be PALcode entry points to > > access flashbus too I suppose, although regrettably my Alpha-fu is not so > > deep as to know this offhand. > > > I need to understand more about the Alpha architecture to understand this, > but I will check. All I can say is that I did try to read the bank 8 base > address register and I did get a value, but I didn't undertand what it > meant. Will do some reading. OK, just shout if you find yourself lost. Maciej From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 26 15:46:11 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 21:46:11 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <013c01d19ffc$aa8b0eb0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Maciej > W. Rozycki > Sent: 26 April 2016 21:02 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > One possibility is SRM unmaps them when it takes over from SROM, > > > for safety maybe -- so as not to let one corrupt flash by accident > > > easily > > (BTW, I do > > > recommend write-protecting flash with its jumper for these > > > experiments -- with DROM not working correctly and hence no way to > > > load SRM from a floppy you'd be doomed if flash broke too). The > > > symptoms should look like ones you've got, though of course plain > > > poking at the wrong area would > > look > > > the same. > > > > > > I will check for unmapping, but I get a machine check when I write > > code running in OpenVMS that attempts to write to the same physical > location. > > This assumes my code is correct of course, which is what I was trying > > to verify by using the console. > > Well, the symptoms appear consistent then (I thought in OpenVMS you got > a freeze), so I suspect my guess about unmapping is right. > > > This makes me wonder if the problem is that the DROM is getting the > > same errors. But I am not sure if that can be true because then the > > DROM would not be able to write to the diagnostic LEDs either (and the > > SROM wouldn't be able to load the DROM, presumably). > > Correct -- if you do get a machine check as early as accessing the index > register, then it looks like the glue logic for flashbus doesn't respond to a > write cycle (there's no decoding enabled for the address requested) and you > get a bus timeout/abort. Given that at this point you are only about to select > a particular device on flashbus it would equally happen for any, including the > LEDs. Unless there is a timing requirement for the data register to see an > access soon enough after an index write or a bus error happens -- which I > highly doubt given the crudeness of the logic (i.e. even the read/write signal > is explicit rather than decoded from the data register access bus cycle). > > > > You could check if flashbus is mapped by peeking at bank 8 memory > > > controller registers and seeing if the contents provide the > > > necessary > > wiring > > > (in particular if bit #0 aka `s8_Valid' in the 16-bit word at > > > 0x180000b00 is 1). These registers are listed in the same manual -- > > > with > > a > > > further reference to the (rather fat) memory controller manual. If > > > not, > > then > > > you'd have to set them yourself. There could be PALcode entry > > > points to access flashbus too I suppose, although regrettably my > > > Alpha-fu is not so deep as to know this offhand. > > > > > > I need to understand more about the Alpha architecture to understand > > this, but I will check. All I can say is that I did try to read the > > bank 8 base address register and I did get a value, but I didn't > > undertand what it meant. Will do some reading. > > OK, just shout if you find yourself lost. > I just got some very interesting results. I examined the bank 8 configuration register contents using the console. It contained 0x0136, which suggests the cache is not valid. The base address register contained 0x4000. So I booted VMS and modified my code to read the same locations. Pleasingly the code read back the same values. Which I hope means my code is correct. I then went back to the console to check the bank 0 configuration register which gave me 0x0069, which indicates it is valid. So there is a good chance I am reading the right things. This I think explains why I get the machine check. While in the console I changed the bank 8 config register to 0x0137, and then I was able to read and write to the address of the flashbus index register, but it didn't change the LEDs when I wrote to the data register, and reading back the data register gave me a value I didn't write. So there is still something not right, perhaps the other values in the bank 8 config register, because I don't know what they mean. However the base address seems correct as it's value is 0x4000 (the raw value in the register), and this equates to 0x1.000.0000 based on it being bits 19 upwards in the physical address space. I wonder if the SROM failing to read the DROM means that it does not set up bank 8? Regards Rob From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 16:05:44 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:05:44 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX In-Reply-To: <571FD3C0.6000602@oryx.us> References: <571FC6CC.2050705@oryx.us> <571FD3C0.6000602@oryx.us> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote: > I won't say any more or provide any specifics, as I like being on this > list and don't want to get booted for sharing locations for unlicensed > software. Understood. I like to keep it legal, since I mainly work as a systems programmer or sysadmin. > Ultimately, it boils down to what your morals are, when using an > abandoned product from a couple of decades ago for hobbyist and/or > learning usage only. Well, I teach some AIX classes on occasion and I've got to be very careful. YMMV and TEHO. When it comes to A/UX, I'm a little more sanguine since it's completely defunct at this point. I do want to learn about it sometime since it's supposed to have a MacOS compat layer which sounds interesting. > > > AIX - disclaimer - nothing modern going on here either. > > Hehe, careful, you don't want all the AIX fans coming out of the woodwork > > on the attack. [...] > Sorry for any misunderstanding here, you are reading something into this here > that was never intended. Sorry for misinterpreting what you were saying. I understand what you meant, now. > I'm not up to date on the Current version of AIX, but I'm thinking 7.x, > maybe 8.x???? 7.2 TL0 is the latest. There is support for Power8 in 7.x. > The stuff I am playing with is 1.x, again, from a couple of decades ago, > on a hardware platform that IBM abandoned. Nothing more is implied. > Nothing to read between the lines. Gotcha, again, sorry for the misread. > Unix is a very religious subject. My last intent is to get on someone's > bad side here. Tell me about it. I'm just lucky/glad to have avoided the VMS vs Unix wars in the 90's. Too much drama. :-) -Swift From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 16:35:49 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 14:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers Message-ID: Does anyone out there have one of these controllers? There is an unprotected PAL- the address decoder- and I really need a dump of it. Many programmers, particularly the BP technologies ones, can read it From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 26 16:38:27 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 17:38:27 -0400 Subject: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX In-Reply-To: References: <571FC6CC.2050705@oryx.us> <571FD3C0.6000602@oryx.us> Message-ID: <20160426213827.GE29998@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated: > On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote: > > > Unix is a very religious subject. My last intent is to get on someone's > > bad side here. > > Tell me about it. I'm just lucky/glad to have avoided the VMS vs Unix wars > in the 90's. Too much drama. :-) What VMS vs Unix wars? I don't recall any in the 90s. Perhaps in the 80s ... -spc (Who used VMS briefly in college ... ) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 26 16:46:22 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 22:46:22 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <013c01d19ffc$aa8b0eb0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> > I just got some very interesting results. > > I examined the bank 8 configuration register contents using the console. It > contained 0x0136, which suggests the cache is not valid. The base address > register contained 0x4000. > > So I booted VMS and modified my code to read the same locations. > Pleasingly the code read back the same values. Which I hope means my code > is correct. > > I then went back to the console to check the bank 0 configuration register > which gave me 0x0069, which indicates it is valid. So there is a good chance I > am reading the right things. > > This I think explains why I get the machine check. While in the console I > changed the bank 8 config register to 0x0137, and then I was able to read and > write to the address of the flashbus index register, but it didn't change the > LEDs when I wrote to the data register, and reading back the data register > gave me a value I didn't write. So there is still something not right, perhaps > the other values in the bank 8 config register, because I don't know what > they mean. However the base address seems correct as it's value is 0x4000 > (the raw value in the register), and this equates to > 0x1.000.0000 based on it being bits 19 upwards in the physical address space. > > I wonder if the SROM failing to read the DROM means that it does not set up > bank 8? > It turns out that I only needed to flip the bit in the bank 8 config register and I can now access the flashbus. I can write to the LEDs, it turns out that writing a 0 turns the LED on, rather than off, which is why I thought it hadn't worked. I can now do test code for the NVRAM, I will start with repeated reads to see if I get different values on different occasions. Then I will save it and write patterns etc. It may be a checksum that is failing of course. Or the DROM itself, which I can't verify until I get the PLCC adapter for my PROM programmer and someone else to read their DROM. Thanks for all the help I have a way forward for a little while now. Although anyone with one of these machines who could read the DROM would be helpful. I will be able to supply a VMS program to read it, so need to remove it from the machine or to have a programmer. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 26 16:46:22 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 22:46:22 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <013c01d19ffc$aa8b0eb0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> > I just got some very interesting results. > > I examined the bank 8 configuration register contents using the console. It > contained 0x0136, which suggests the cache is not valid. The base address > register contained 0x4000. > > So I booted VMS and modified my code to read the same locations. > Pleasingly the code read back the same values. Which I hope means my code > is correct. > > I then went back to the console to check the bank 0 configuration register > which gave me 0x0069, which indicates it is valid. So there is a good chance I > am reading the right things. > > This I think explains why I get the machine check. While in the console I > changed the bank 8 config register to 0x0137, and then I was able to read and > write to the address of the flashbus index register, but it didn't change the > LEDs when I wrote to the data register, and reading back the data register > gave me a value I didn't write. So there is still something not right, perhaps > the other values in the bank 8 config register, because I don't know what > they mean. However the base address seems correct as it's value is 0x4000 > (the raw value in the register), and this equates to > 0x1.000.0000 based on it being bits 19 upwards in the physical address space. > > I wonder if the SROM failing to read the DROM means that it does not set up > bank 8? > It turns out that I only needed to flip the bit in the bank 8 config register and I can now access the flashbus. I can write to the LEDs, it turns out that writing a 0 turns the LED on, rather than off, which is why I thought it hadn't worked. I can now do test code for the NVRAM, I will start with repeated reads to see if I get different values on different occasions. Then I will save it and write patterns etc. It may be a checksum that is failing of course. Or the DROM itself, which I can't verify until I get the PLCC adapter for my PROM programmer and someone else to read their DROM. Thanks for all the help I have a way forward for a little while now. Although anyone with one of these machines who could read the DROM would be helpful. I will be able to supply a VMS program to read it, so need to remove it from the machine or to have a programmer. Regards Rob From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 16:46:46 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:46:46 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX In-Reply-To: <20160426213827.GE29998@brevard.conman.org> References: <571FC6CC.2050705@oryx.us> <571FD3C0.6000602@oryx.us> <20160426213827.GE29998@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > > Tell me about it. I'm just lucky/glad to have avoided the VMS vs Unix wars > > in the 90's. Too much drama. :-) > What VMS vs Unix wars? I don't recall any in the 90s. Perhaps in the 80s > ... Perhaps so; like I said, I missed them, and thank goodness. Talk about a polarizing argument. I've met a metric ton of brilliant Unix *and* VMS folks, and some that knew both. :-) -Swift From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Apr 26 16:52:06 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 14:52:06 -0700 Subject: MEM11A status update Message-ID: <212992E9-D9AE-4D97-8520-6F64E22DA0EE@shiresoft.com> Just to let folks know that I just received the prototype boards for the MEM11A (FedEx just left). The boards look great! The parts from Digikey arrived late last week, so once I get my soldering station set up (new microscope and new Metcal soldering iron) I?ll start to build a couple of boards to test out. Once I have a couple working *and* I get firm orders for at least 25 boards (hint, hint) I?ll do a production run. TTFN - Guy From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 16:53:26 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:53:26 +1200 Subject: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is a 720TM any use? I just acquired one... And a BP-1200.? Mike On Apr 27, 2016 9:35 AM, "Ian Finder" wrote: > Does anyone out there have one of these controllers? > > There is an unprotected PAL- the address decoder- and I really need a dump > of it. Many programmers, particularly the BP technologies ones, can read it From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 16:59:20 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 14:59:20 -0700 Subject: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Mike, The docs claim the 700 / 710 TM use PAL P70013A at U102, and the 720 TM uses PAL P720008A at U102, but I don't think it'd catch anything on fire to try it. Could you send the two EPROM images too? Sounds like a great opportunity to break in your BP (Baller Programmer) 1200... Remember to save the buffer from the Data Pattern window :) - Ian On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Is a 720TM any use? I just acquired one... And a BP-1200.? > > Mike > On Apr 27, 2016 9:35 AM, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > > Does anyone out there have one of these controllers? > > > > There is an unprotected PAL- the address decoder- and I really need a > dump > > of it. Many programmers, particularly the BP technologies ones, can read > it > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 17:00:33 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:00:33 -0700 Subject: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 26, 2016 2:35 PM, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > Does anyone out there have one of these controllers? > > There is an unprotected PAL- the address decoder- and I really need a dump of it. Many programmers, particularly the BP technologies ones, can read it Curious how you know it is not a protected PAL? The PALs are protected on all of the CMD CQD adapters I have looked at. I can't remember if I bothered checking the PAL on my CDU-720/M From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 17:04:42 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:04:42 -0700 Subject: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The spec sheet from the PAL mfg. (signetics PLS173) seems to indicate security fuses aren't an option on the model on my board. I have not actually tried yet. Failing that, if I can find one locally, there are only 12 bits of combinatorial inputs. I could easily whip up a little Arduino project on a breadboard to walk thru all 4096 states and log the outputs for manual factoring. - Ian On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 3:00 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Apr 26, 2016 2:35 PM, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > > > Does anyone out there have one of these controllers? > > > > There is an unprotected PAL- the address decoder- and I really need a > dump of it. Many programmers, particularly the BP technologies ones, can > read it > > Curious how you know it is not a protected PAL? The PALs are protected on > all of the CMD CQD adapters I have looked at. I can't remember if I > bothered checking the PAL on my CDU-720/M > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 17:06:41 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 16:06:41 -0600 (MDT) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > It may be a checksum that is failing of course. Or the DROM itself, > which I can't verify until I get the PLCC adapter for my PROM programmer > and someone else to read their DROM. Could you use a pull or replacement mobo ? I notice there are some Alphastation mobos on ebay for @50 bucks if you are interested and not averse to fleabay :-) There isn't as much specifically for the 200, but I see them come and go all the time. Also, I still deal with a lot of business clients running alphas and Tru64. There is a guy in Thornton, Colorado who I get quite a few dead, spare, and orphaned alphas from. It's an electronics supply type business. I'll see him this weekend and I can ask him if he's got any spares or dead mobos he could fork over. Thanks, Swift From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 17:12:06 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:12:06 -0700 Subject: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 26, 2016 3:04 PM, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > The spec sheet from the PAL mfg. (signetics PLS173) seems to indicate > security fuses aren't an option on the model on my board. I have not > actually tried yet. > Regardless of what the spec sheet does or does not explicitly say, I think when I selected that device in the BPWin device programmer software there was an option to protect the device after programming. I'm mobile now, I can check that later. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 17:18:16 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 23:18:16 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0 e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <002601d1a009$886c3e00$9944ba00$@gmail.com> > I can now do test code for the NVRAM, I will start with repeated reads to see if > I get different values on different occasions. Then I will save it and write > patterns etc. It may be a checksum that is failing of course. Or the DROM itself, > which I can't verify until I get the PLCC adapter for my PROM programmer and > someone else to read their DROM. What size PLCC? I have some PLCC to DIL adaptors... > > Thanks for all the help I have a way forward for a little while now. > Although anyone with one of these machines who could read the DROM would > be helpful. I will be able to supply a VMS program to read it, so need to remove > it from the machine or to have a programmer. > > Regards > > Rob Dave G4UGM From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 26 17:24:41 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 23:24:41 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <015d01d1a00a$6d5fd850$481f88f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Swift > Griggs > Sent: 26 April 2016 23:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > It may be a checksum that is failing of course. Or the DROM itself, > > which I can't verify until I get the PLCC adapter for my PROM > > programmer and someone else to read their DROM. > > Could you use a pull or replacement mobo ? I notice there are some > Alphastation mobos on ebay for @50 bucks if you are interested and not > averse to fleabay :-) There isn't as much specifically for the 200, but I see > them come and go all the time. > > Also, I still deal with a lot of business clients running alphas and Tru64. There > is a guy in Thornton, Colorado who I get quite a few dead, spare, and > orphaned alphas from. It's an electronics supply type business. > I'll see him this weekend and I can ask him if he's got any spares or dead > mobos he could fork over. > > Thanks, > Swift Many thanks for the suggestion. Only trouble is I am in the UK and shipping tends to be expensive from the USA. I'll check on ebay in the UK, as long as it doesn't cost too much. Regards Rob From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 17:26:37 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 10:26:37 +1200 Subject: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm on holiday with my kids just - ping me next week when I'm home! On Apr 27, 2016 9:59 AM, "Ian Finder" wrote: > Hey Mike, > > The docs claim the 700 / 710 TM use PAL P70013A at U102, and the 720 > TM uses PAL P720008A at U102, but I don't think it'd catch anything on fire > to try it. > > Could you send the two EPROM images too? Sounds like a great opportunity to > break in your BP (Baller Programmer) 1200... > > Remember to save the buffer from the Data Pattern window :) > > - Ian > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > > Is a 720TM any use? I just acquired one... And a BP-1200.? > > > > Mike > > On Apr 27, 2016 9:35 AM, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > > > > Does anyone out there have one of these controllers? > > > > > > There is an unprotected PAL- the address decoder- and I really need a > > dump > > > of it. Many programmers, particularly the BP technologies ones, can > read > > it > > > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 26 17:30:22 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:30:22 -0700 Subject: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: <4A23523C-56E9-49C8-B646-36AC8B4E863E@comcast.net> References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> <571FBC60.2010607@sydex.com> <4A23523C-56E9-49C8-B646-36AC8B4E863E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <571FEBFE.1010606@sydex.com> On 04/26/2016 12:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > This sort of stuff doesn't seem to be all that common; I haven't seen > it elsewhere. Multiple tubes, like dual triodes or triode/heptodes > are pretty common, but those are just the active part. The only "passive in the tube" examples I can think of in US manufacture are simple between-unit resistors, such as the 6N6. --Chuck From dave at 661.org Tue Apr 26 17:44:05 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 22:44:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Using flashable Macintosh ROM SIMM Message-ID: I have a "MACSIMM" from GGLabs (http://gglabs.us) which I bought from their Ebay store. Unfortunately they haven't followed up on my request for information on how to prepare a ROM image for use with the thing. Has anyone else here used this or a similar device to hack the ROMs of the Mac SE/30, IIsi, IIci, or IIfx? It's composed of four 39SF010A 32-pin PLCC chips the special 64-pin SIMM. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 19:00:45 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 20:00:45 -0400 Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On the world there is probably only my 12 bit freely programmable > Elliott 900 still alive, I know of as little as 6 Rolms (privately > owned, all variants) and less than 5 of the inertial navigators. If you are talking about the various Rolm 1600 series machines - there are a whole lot more of those out there. I had 12 of them in stock maybe ten years ago, and sold my last one last year. And about five years ago, I moved a few more for a client. There are also a bunch still in service at the paper mills. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 19:12:39 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 20:12:39 -0400 Subject: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> <571FBC60.2010607@sydex.com> <4A23523C-56E9-49C8-B646-36AC8B4E863E@comcast.net> <571FEBFE.1010606@sydex.com> Message-ID: There were a few others, as well as some RF devices with the tuned parts inside the bulb. There were also some oddball types made for weather balloon use that had the whole transmitter circuit as one unit. -- Will On Apr 26, 2016 6:30 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: On 04/26/2016 12:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > This sort of stuff doesn't seem to be all that common; I haven't seen > it elsewhere. Multiple tubes, like dual triodes or triode/heptodes > are pretty common, but those are just the active part. The only "passive in the tube" examples I can think of in US manufacture are simple between-unit resistors, such as the 6N6. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 26 19:15:48 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 17:15:48 -0700 Subject: Using flashable Macintosh ROM SIMM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1050f496-2f52-e29b-eca0-0a7f407bb270@bitsavers.org> I assume you'd have to locate a 32-bit clean rom image from one of the emulator sites, then break out every 1/4 byte into a file. You then have to use an external prom programmer to write them. According to the eBay ad: "Chips are socketed for individual flashing on a standard eprom programmer with PLCC32 adapter." On 4/26/16 3:44 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I have a "MACSIMM" from GGLabs (http://gglabs.us) which I bought from their Ebay store. Unfortunately they haven't > followed up on my request for information on how to prepare a ROM image for use with the thing. Has anyone else here > used this or a similar device to hack the ROMs of the Mac SE/30, IIsi, IIci, or IIfx? It's composed of four 39SF010A > 32-pin PLCC chips the special 64-pin SIMM. > > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 19:59:56 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 18:59:56 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Mini Map Array Processor - What in tarnation? Message-ID: Seriously, http://tinyurl.com/j46jg4p http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102743645 What in the world is this thing? Some kind of early parallel or vector processor? External? How delightfully weird, except there is very little online about it. Did any of you work with one of these? What kind of instructions do they use? What is their bus width on the ...uh what? CPUs? What kind of addressing modes & size(s) do these use? Why does the one reference talk about the 64k RAM they had? Were these standalone machines ('cause it looks like it goes to a VAX-11 and "LSI-11") ? This was before my time but fascinating, nonetheless. -Swift From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 20:00:56 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 18:00:56 -0700 Subject: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > The spec sheet from the PAL mfg. (signetics PLS173) seems to indicate > security fuses aren't an option on the model on my board. I have not > actually tried yet. > A PLS173 does not have a security fuse. A PLUS173 does have a security fuse. On my CMD CDU-720/M there are some PLS173 parts, but the CSR decode PAL is a PLUS173 part, so I assume it is secured. Double check whether the CSR decode PAL on your CDU-710 is a PLS173 or a PLUS173. -Glen From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 20:09:40 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 18:09:40 -0700 Subject: Mini Map Array Processor - What in tarnation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > Seriously, > > http://tinyurl.com/j46jg4p > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102743645 > > What in the world is this thing? Some kind of early parallel or vector > processor? External? How delightfully weird, except there is very little > online about it. > Try searching for ' cspi mini-map vector processor' -- Charles From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 20:17:19 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 19:17:19 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Mini Map Array Processor - What in tarnation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Charles Anthony wrote: > Try searching for ' cspi mini-map vector processor' Ah yes. The marketdroid blurb sums it up: "Today, CSPI is recognized as a leading manufacturer of vector processors which enhance a computer's ability to perform high-speed arithmetic. Markets served include science and engineering applications in signal processing, sonar and radar processing, image processing, seismic processing and well logging, medical imaging (such at CT and MRI scanning, and others." -Swift From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 26 20:25:53 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 20:25:53 -0500 Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <57201521.3080607@pico-systems.com> On 04/26/2016 12:14 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Jon Elson wrote: >> Erik is not the only one. Check out Tatiana van Vark. > Excellent! I've actually wondered who in the world might do something like > this. Now I know. Like I said, what a cool hobby. > >> Here's a picture of what is in her DINING ROOM, the complete electronics >> suite from a Vulcan bomber! > That is one of the coolest things I've ever seen. I can identify perhaps > *one* of those devices. I'm guessing the little round CRT is for radar. > That's it! Somewhere, someday, some flight sim zealot is going to break > down in tears of joy and jealousy when they see that setup. > >> There's also a video of her picking up a Litton inertial measuring unit >> and moving it around, there's 3 racks of gear to support it. > As in 3 EIA/TIA racks fulla computer kit ? Daaaaamn son. That's what you > call a passion for your hobby. Hopefully, being female she has less > problems with her SO freaking out, but who knows, perhaps she married an OCD > butler. It's tough to escape the laws of the universe sometimes. :-) > > Not too clear she has been married. Seems she has WAY too many projects to have had an SO. This all seems to be gear from the '60s or maybe '70s at the latest. You HAVE to watch the video! Go to http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvv5/gimbal.html click the lower right link, click the right hand image to start the video. Watch for the racks of equipment. I especially LOVE the panel of about 30 gears that I guess sum up the axes mechanically. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 26 20:44:33 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 20:44:33 -0500 Subject: Mini Map Array Processor - What in tarnation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57201981.1080703@pico-systems.com> On 04/26/2016 07:59 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > Seriously, > > http://tinyurl.com/j46jg4p > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102743645 > > What in the world is this thing? Some kind of early parallel or vector > processor? We got a CSPI 6410 and had it hooked to a VAX 11/780. It was probably a bigger brother to the machine you link to. There was a big math library that came with it. If you had really regular matrix operations, such as FFTs, matrix multiplies and similar classic operations, it could do them quite fast, in the several MFLOP range. The bigger the matrix (as long as it fit in the memory of the unit) the better, as the library just set up all the registers, loaded the data and turned it loose. If you had a bunch of small matrices, it was a lot less efficient, as it had the same setup overhead for every task. Yes, it is a vector processor, with a floating-point multiplier and adder, some address arithmetic logic and a sequencer. Jon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 21:03:22 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 22:03:22 -0400 Subject: Mini Map Array Processor - What in tarnation? In-Reply-To: References: <57201981.1080703@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Yes, the CSPI box is mounted inside a standard DEC cabinet. I have one of these things in a VAX, originally part of some sort of chemical analysis tool. -- Will On Apr 26, 2016 9:44 PM, "Jon Elson" wrote: On 04/26/2016 07:59 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > Seriously, > > http://tinyurl.com/j46jg4p > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102743645 > > What in the world is this thing? Some kind of early parallel or vector > processor? > We got a CSPI 6410 and had it hooked to a VAX 11/780. It was probably a bigger brother to the machine you link to. There was a big math library that came with it. If you had really regular matrix operations, such as FFTs, matrix multiplies and similar classic operations, it could do them quite fast, in the several MFLOP range. The bigger the matrix (as long as it fit in the memory of the unit) the better, as the library just set up all the registers, loaded the data and turned it loose. If you had a bunch of small matrices, it was a lot less efficient, as it had the same setup overhead for every task. Yes, it is a vector processor, with a floating-point multiplier and adder, some address arithmetic logic and a sequencer. Jon From seefriek at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 21:47:03 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 22:47:03 -0400 Subject: Fast Unibus Sync Serial? Message-ID: From: Paul Koning > > HDLC is ok so far as it goes, but DDCMP is superior in every respect. The only reason > to use HDLC is that you need to talk something that can't be made to speak DDCMP. > Like a Cisco router without the DECnet feature set? Or pretty much anything that doesn't speak DECnet? KJ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 21:47:42 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 22:47:42 -0400 Subject: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: <571FBC60.2010607@sydex.com> References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> <571FBC60.2010607@sydex.com> Message-ID: > What was the highest level of integration in a single envelope? Perhaps Selectrons. -- Will From seefriek at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 21:52:42 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 22:52:42 -0400 Subject: Fast Unibus Sync Serial? Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks > > DUP-11? Will that do what you need? > Not sure, Ethan. I'm been looking at the doco and it's not clear yet if it's suitable for what I'm trying to do. Thanks for the pointer. KJ From scaron at diablonet.net Tue Apr 26 22:21:14 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 23:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > > Has anyone ever seen either A/UX or AIX running on an Apple Network Server > or Apple Workgroup Server? I had several hundred AIX machines running in a > server farm for a while, but even the oldest was POWER4 based, and I've only > done a bit of legacy support for PPC60x-based RS/6000 systems. I don't > belive I've ever seen an ANS or AWS IRL. I have an AWGS 95. Basically a Quadra 950 with a special PDS card and DDS drive. It runs A/UX 3.0.1 ... I also ran A/UX 3.0.1 on my IIfx for a while but I got tired of it and reloaded the machine with System 7. Out of all the machines Apple made, only the IIfx and the AWGS 95 were in any way engineered with A/UX in mind ... IIRC, the I/O coprocessors in the IIfx only run in A/UX, and the PDS card in the WGS 95 is only supported in A/UX. A/UX is an interesting system. Compatibility with System 7 apps is pretty good, though not perfect. The UNIX environment is pretty stunted but that could have been fixed with further development. They did manage to combine the System 7 GUI with a basic UNIX command line. One favorite alternative reality of mine is to imagine Apple continuing to develop A/UX, improving the UNIX environment and applications compatibility, using the Copland UI instead of buying NeXT and turning NeXTstep into Mac OS X. But BeOS was better than either of them ;) > I'm curious what the last version of AIX that will run on them. I'm > guessing 4.x. I'm also curious if there is one machine that can run A/UX, > AIX, MacOS, and NetBSD. The Workgroup Servers were 68k Macs that ran A/UX (or later just PPC Macs that ran Mac OS and AppleShare). In the case of the WGS 95, there was a hop-up board included, but it was still just a Quadra 950 at heart that can run Mac OS like any other Q950. The Network Servers were PPC machines that ran AIX and only AIX... and in that regard not really Macs, IMO. A/UX never ran on PPC. I saw a fair number of Workgroup Servers back in the good ole days, 68k and PPC, but I've never ever seen a Network Server. I remember the "Applefritter" site was hosted on an ANS 700 for a while and I thought I read somewhere that it ran on AIX 4.x. No such machine exists but it's interesting to think what may have come had CHRP succeeded and Apple did things a little differently. I miss the RISC wars... :O Best, Sean From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 26 23:02:07 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 05:02:07 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <002601d1a009$886c3e00$9944ba00$@gmail.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <02ce01d15156$037a0260$0a6e0720$@ntlworld.com> <010c01d19ce3$bfa1b450$3ee51cf0$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0 e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <002601d1a009$886c3e00$9944ba00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <015e01d1a039$90e546a0$b2afd3e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > Wade > Sent: 26 April 2016 23:18 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > > I can now do test code for the NVRAM, I will start with repeated reads > > to > see if > > I get different values on different occasions. Then I will save it and > write > > patterns etc. It may be a checksum that is failing of course. Or the > > DROM > itself, > > which I can't verify until I get the PLCC adapter for my PROM > > programmer > and > > someone else to read their DROM. > > What size PLCC? I have some PLCC to DIL adaptors... > Not to worry, I have an adapter coming. Thanks for the offer anyway. Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 26 23:33:23 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 21:33:23 -0700 Subject: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> <571FBC60.2010607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57204113.5000809@sydex.com> On 04/26/2016 07:47 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> What was the highest level of integration in a single envelope? > > Perhaps Selectrons. EBAM? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 26 23:34:49 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 00:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Ivory Tower saga was Re: strangest systems I've sent email In-Reply-To: <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571E6C2F.6000100@sydex.com> <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <78277B27-7880-4C88-B01E-9DC68369898B@swri.edu> <20160426183808.GA29998@brevard.conman.org> <20160426184449.GB29998@brevard.conman.org> References: <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571E6C2F.6000100@sydex.com> <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <78277B27-7880-4C88-B01E-9DC68369898B@swri.edu> <20160426183808.GA29998@brevard.conman.org> <20160426184449.GB29998@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <201604270434.AAA24458@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> What a pile of stuff, much of which ties in (in various directions) with things I've been thinking. In no particular order.... Grades - ideally, yes, grades would be unnecessary. But in a system where others depend on something at least vaguely objective to measure whether people know things, some kind of grading is necessary. Does it have to be done the way it's done now? Of course not. But, unless you can also eliminate a bunch of the other societal mechanisms and conventions that have accreted around the educational system, it needs to be done. Unless you are doing something purely for the students. I once taught a weekend course with no grading of any sort. Every student got a piece of paper I signed certifying they had attended the course, but there was nothing at all - save of course the students' increased proficiency in the subject matter - indicating how much the various students had got out of it. In some respects I think that's the best way to handle education/training/learning, but it's difficult to get completely away from the rest of those mechanisms and conventions I mentioned above. This segues neatly into the distinction someone raised between education and training. Again, I would say that ideally there should be no distinction, but that in this society (and I suspect that, for all their differences, the societies most/all of the listmembers live in are more or less the same in this regard), there is a substantial operational distinction between the sort of background fundamentals that were called "education" and the sort of focused specifics that were called "training". Especially in North America, there used to be a distinction between "university" and "college", with universities providing "education" and colleges providing "training". Unfortunately, this is on the way to getting lost - I recommend Paul Fussell's delightful little book _Class_, which, among other things, has a chapter or two about how colleges got redesignated universities and trade schools colleges; that feels related to me. I'm inclined to agree that the societal purpose of universities is advancing the state of the art, whereas that of trade schools is preparing people for jobs (in whichever industry the school covers). Today's blurring of this distinction I see as symptomatic of much of the problem with today's educational system. I was trained - er, educated, I guess :) - as a mathematician, with a side order of computer science (B.Sc. major in maths, minor in CS). In practice, though, I'm neither mathematician nor computer scientist, but rather programmer and sysadmin. Yet the maths and CS training were extremely valuable to me; I am a far better programmer and sysadmin for having the math and CS background. Take also, for example, Lisp. I've used Lisp. I even wrote a Lisp engine. I love the language, even though I almost never use it. But some of the mental patterns it has given me inform much of the code I write regardless of language. I have seen it said that a language that does not change the way you think about programming is not worth knowing. I think that goes too far, but something weaker along the same lines _is_ true, and Lisp is a good vehicle for some of those changes. (Adding continuations to my Lisp engine was a fascinating experience, one well worth the time and effort involved, even though I have never used them for anything serious.) And I do not exclude low-level languages; just as I think knowing Lisp makes me a better programmer even when not using Lisp, I also think my knowing assembly and machine language for various processors makes me a better programmer even when not using them. (And, yes, the people who think Lisp is useless-in-practice clearly have never looked even the tiniest bit under the hood of GNU Emacs.) People have remarked on the knowing of multiple languages. I would say it matters terribly what the languages in question are. Knowing C, JavaScript, Pascal, and awk is, for example, very very different from knowing Lisp, Prolog, Objective-C, and TeX, even though each one hits the same putative "knows four languages" tickbox on a hiring form. I draw a sharp distinction between "programming" and "programming in $LANGUAGE", for any value of $LANGUAGE. Someone who knows the latter may be able to get a job writing code in $LANGUAGE...but someone who groks the former can pick up any language in relatively short order. The bracketed note in the second paragraph of content on http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/personality.html is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about here; ESR taught himself TeX by the simple expedient of reading the TeXBook. One particular message seems to me to call for individual response: > There are two major language families: declarative and imperative. > [...] Declarative langauges are [...]. A few langauges under this > family: > Prolog Agreed, though AIUI the presence of cuts weakens this somewhat. (Caveat, I don't really grok Prolog; I may be misunderstanding.) > make (and yes, make is a declarative language) Only, I would say, in its simplest forms. Every make implementation I know of (including both at least one BSD variant and at least one version of GNU make) stops looking very declarative when you have to do anything at all complex. > SQL I don't see SQL as declarative. I see it as imperative, with the relational table as its primary data type. That the programmer doesn't have to hand-hold the implementation in figuring out how to perform a SELECT doesn't make SQL declarative any more than the code not describing how to implement mapcar makes Lisp declarative. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 26 23:49:18 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 23:49:18 -0500 Subject: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> <571FBC60.2010607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572044CE.5000705@pico-systems.com> On 04/26/2016 09:47 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> What was the highest level of integration in a single envelope? > Perhaps Selectrons. > > There were also "Compactrons", 12-pin tubes kind of extending the 7- and 9-pin submini tubes. Some of them had at least 3 elements in one envelope. Jon From supervinx at libero.it Tue Apr 26 23:53:54 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 06:53:54 +0200 Subject: R: Re: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX Message-ID: <9nvcf2edjl5kjq0qwfpmsetu.1461732834570@email.android.com> http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum/Apple/Quadra/950/ Scroll down and you'll find many A/UX pictures From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 27 00:00:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 22:00:12 -0700 Subject: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: <572044CE.5000705@pico-systems.com> References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> <571FBC60.2010607@sydex.com> <572044CE.5000705@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5720475C.6010708@sydex.com> On 04/26/2016 09:49 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > There were also "Compactrons", 12-pin tubes kind of extending the 7- > and 9-pin submini tubes. Some of them had at least 3 elements in one > envelope. I remember them and used them. In particular, I remember an AF amplifier with push-pull beam output elements and a triode phase inverter all in one element. --Chuck From erik at baigar.de Wed Apr 27 01:23:16 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 08:23:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, William Donzelli wrote: >> On the world there is probably only my 12 bit freely programmable >> Elliott 900 still alive, I know of as little as 6 Rolms (privately >> owned, all variants) and less than 5 of the inertial navigators. > > If you are talking about the various Rolm 1600 series machines - there are > a whole lot more of those out there. I had 12 of them in stock maybe ten > years ago, and sold my last one last year. And about five years ago, I > moved a few more for a client. Well - "are out there" I agree, but do you know of any PRIVATELY owned and ALIVE machines? There is lot of PDP* discussion here, but it is very hard to get in touch with people being working on Rolm stuff. Of course: In contrast to a non-working PDP8 (which still looks beautiful) a defunc Rolm processor is just a very heavy brick of metal. So any one out there also preserving Rolm computer hardware in working condition? > There are also a bunch still in service at the paper mills. ...and some airborne and land based MIL applications I am pretty sure... Did you also have some later Rolm machines (like MSE14?) or any interesting software (apart from the diagnostics)? Have you heared of the Micro Code development system for the 1602 (no -A or -B)? I have got one of these, reverse engineered it partly and rebuilt the missing panel... http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/EB-HDDsim-on-1602-w-Microcoder.jpg ...but it is still not working and of course I am missing the Micro Code assembler... Have a good time, Erik. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 27 01:44:43 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 23:44:43 -0700 Subject: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX In-Reply-To: References: <571FC6CC.2050705@oryx.us> <571FD3C0.6000602@oryx.us> <20160426213827.GE29998@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <9616975C-A81B-427D-8A35-06F1F0EB9DF5@aracnet.com> > On Apr 26, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: >>> Tell me about it. I'm just lucky/glad to have avoided the VMS vs Unix wars >>> in the 90's. Too much drama. :-) >> What VMS vs Unix wars? I don't recall any in the 90s. Perhaps in the 80s >> ... > > Perhaps so; like I said, I missed them, and thank goodness. > > Talk about a polarizing argument. I've met a metric ton of brilliant Unix > *and* VMS folks, and some that knew both. :-) > > -Swift > Don?t fret, once OpenVMS v9.0 is released, on x86-64, there won?t be any doubt as to who won. :-) Oh, and while I?m at it, both vi and emacs suck. Give me TPU! :-) In answer to the original question, Cameron Kaiser used to be heavily into Mac Workgroup Servers running AIX, but I don?t think he?s on the list any more. In the long distant past, I used A/UX on Mac IIfx systems. I used AIX on a variety of IBM systems, more recently, but never on an Apple system. Zane From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 02:47:56 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 08:47:56 +0100 Subject: Digital (Was RE: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX) Message-ID: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> > > > > Don?t fret, once OpenVMS v9.0 is released, on x86-64, there won?t be any doubt > as to who won. :-) > Sadly, no one won. I doubt any one (well perhaps not anyone) would consider OpenVMS for a new deployment. Upgrading existing environments, yes, but a new green field site. It would have to have very good reasons. (I know you will all come out with some, but perhaps one for every 10,000 Linux and/or Windows Server deployments.) Digital is now a fond memory for most. Both VAX and Alpha are no longer manufactured. I actually wonder if an FPGA VAX chip could be made that would run faster than existing real VAXEN. That could perhaps form the basis of a nice VaxStation... ... on browsing I found this... http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/journal/v7/vax_6000_emulator.pdf Dave From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Apr 27 03:03:29 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 10:03:29 +0200 Subject: Digital (Was RE: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX) In-Reply-To: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> References: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160427100329.iv8dp7zytc0co0og@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von Dave Wade : > I actually wonder if an FPGA VAX chip could be made that would run > faster than existing real VAXEN. That could perhaps form the basis > of a nice VaxStation... > ... on browsing I found this... If you get ~200VUPS on an i7, it should be possible to put it in an FPGA, an do it right. So no real VAX, but if you compete with a 4000/90, you should be fine on an FPGA ... Cheers From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 27 04:48:46 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 11:48:46 +0200 Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston Message-ID: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> This morning I got the sad message of the passing of Jon Johnston the curator of the HP Museum website www.hpmusem.net. More info at : http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/father-of-three-jon-johnston-died- in-tibet-during-a-trek-in-the-himalayas/news-story/501c804577a833b0964016bae 87fd318 Jon, was a fellow collector and HP enthusiast and will be missed. Jon himself and his site were a help and source of knowledge for everyone who was interested in HP computing history. -Rik From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Apr 27 06:34:26 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:34:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Is it NAT keeping everyone suppressed behind dynamic translation or > is it more that 80% of the people on the net are just consuming media > and since they don't clamor for equal "real" IP access, the ISPs > simply don't care about that. A bit from column A, a bit from column B, I would say. >> This is why I pay in excess of $300/month for a T1 line and a /27, >> as well as ADSL with a /28 (from a local provider that doesn't care >> if I run "servers" or not). > I'd do the same thing if I wasn't such a tightwad or didn't have > friends that did as you do who let me host with them. It's > definitely very sub-optimal and expensive for no good reason. And I spend over $80/month for DSL to a provider that gives me a /29 and a /60 from globally routed space. (That everything is now CIDR blocks is another loss; I am not fond of the desupporting of noncontiguous subnet masks, even though I can understand it - I'm the only person I've ever heard of running that way other than for testing.) A small local provider, but still. > Thanks for that post. Very cathartic. Glad I'm not the only one. :-) No, no, you aren't the only one. Even most of what I cut I agree with; it just didn't seem to call for a response. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 27 06:54:02 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:54:02 -0400 Subject: Fast Unibus Sync Serial? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07EBD18B-B83D-4B29-8E22-2E6104D0708F@comcast.net> > On Apr 26, 2016, at 10:47 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: > > From: Paul Koning >> >> HDLC is ok so far as it goes, but DDCMP is superior in every respect. The only reason >> to use HDLC is that you need to talk something that can't be made to speak DDCMP. >> > > Like a Cisco router without the DECnet feature set? Or pretty much > anything that doesn't speak DECnet? Sure, but then you also need to worry about implementing the higher layer protocols. HDLC may be the least of your worry. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 27 06:57:02 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:57:02 -0400 Subject: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: <572044CE.5000705@pico-systems.com> References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> <571FBC60.2010607@sydex.com> <572044CE.5000705@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <11539CC9-F318-42E7-AFB0-C8C52AF7A4AC@comcast.net> > On Apr 27, 2016, at 12:49 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 04/26/2016 09:47 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> What was the highest level of integration in a single envelope? >> Perhaps Selectrons. >> >> > There were also "Compactrons", 12-pin tubes kind of extending the 7- and 9-pin submini tubes. > Some of them had at least 3 elements in one envelope. European tubes are easy to evaluate in that respect because the letter codes designate what's inside. I remember the EABC80 (not sure that's the correct number), which is a diode plus double-diode plus triode. Intended application, if I remember right, was FM detector (discriminator, double diode), AGC detector (single diode) and audio preamp (triode). paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 27 07:00:38 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 08:00:38 -0400 Subject: Digital (Was RE: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX) In-Reply-To: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> References: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6473CF88-D079-44D1-B9AE-7B6D9E8BF286@comcast.net> > On Apr 27, 2016, at 3:47 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > ... > Digital is now a fond memory for most. Both VAX and Alpha are no longer manufactured. > > I actually wonder if an FPGA VAX chip could be made that would run faster than existing real VAXEN. That could perhaps form the basis of a nice VaxStation... Clearly that's possible given that today's clock speeds are much higher than those of any VAX, and you could put caches on-chip as well for additional points. The difficulty would be to create an accurate enough implementation. Given the availability of the VAX architecture manual, the odds are better than they would be for many other processors. For that matter, by the same reasoning it should be doable (and quite possibly easier) to build an FPGA Alpha. Is the Alpha architecture manual ("SRM") online? paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 07:40:15 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 12:40:15 +0000 Subject: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A) In-Reply-To: <11539CC9-F318-42E7-AFB0-C8C52AF7A4AC@comcast.net> References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> <571FBC60.2010607@sydex.com> <572044CE.5000705@pico-systems.com>, <11539CC9-F318-42E7-AFB0-C8C52AF7A4AC@comcast.net> Message-ID: > European tubes are easy to evaluate in that respect because the letter codes > designate what's inside. I remember the EABC80 (not sure that's the correct EABC80 _is_ the correct number. It is a triple diode triode. The number decodes as follows : E : 6.3V heater A : diode B : double diode (so a total of 3 diodes) C: triode 8 : B9A (noval) base There is also the (more common) UABC80 (with a 100mA heater for series string use) and PABC80 (least common, with a 300mA heater for series string operation). > number), which is a diode plus double-diode plus triode. Intended application, > if I remember right, was FM detector (discriminator, double diode), AGC detector > (single diode) and audio preamp (triode). More often it was used in AM/FM radios. 2 diodes for the FM detector and one for the AM detector and AGC. And the audio amplifier triode. -tony From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Apr 27 08:07:06 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:07:06 +0200 Subject: Digital VAX, Alpha (Was RE: Mac "Workgroup Server" ... In-Reply-To: <6473CF88-D079-44D1-B9AE-7B6D9E8BF286@comcast.net> References: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> <6473CF88-D079-44D1-B9AE-7B6D9E8BF286@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20160427150706.9hi6zf5sx0cg000c@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von Paul Koning : > >> On Apr 27, 2016, at 3:47 AM, Dave Wade wrote: >> ... >> Digital is now a fond memory for most. Both VAX and Alpha are no >> longer manufactured. >> >> I actually wonder if an FPGA VAX chip could be made that would run >> faster than existing real VAXEN. That could perhaps form the basis >> of a nice VaxStation... > > Clearly that's possible given that today's clock speeds are much > higher than those of any VAX, and you could put caches on-chip as > well for additional points. The difficulty would be to create an > accurate enough implementation. If "accurate" means to run VMS or Unix, it shouldn't be to difficult. > For that matter, by the same reasoning it should be doable (and > quite possibly easier) to build an FPGA Alpha. Is the Alpha > architecture manual ("SRM") online? Is there any demand for it, besides of being fun? Cheers From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 27 08:23:46 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from Message-ID: <20160427132346.36C1018C0FD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> {Several replies packaged together to minimize list bandwidth use..} > From: John Willis > the real promise of the Internet as envisioned by Cerf, Postel, et. al. > was in the purity of the end-to-end networking connectivity, where your > personal machine is a node equal in stature to minis, mid, and > mainframes also participating We don't have peer-peer at the packet level, true, but a lot of the philosophical goals many people had back then (which were unspoken, of course) were in fact met. i) Information is much more accesible now (and not just Wikipedia, but government information, etc - stuff you used to legally have access to, but it required real effort and physical presence to get to). ii) Information is much more democratic - the 'New Media'. No more three national TV channels (in the US, replace '3' in other countries.) Yes, there are issues, but on balance, I think I still prefer post-Internet to pre-Internet. > the vapidity of online exchanges quickly reached fever pitch as more > and more blockheads flooded the network. This is kind of a corollary to Sturgeon's Law. x% of the world are ^%&-heads; if you have something that includes the entire population, you'll _necessarily_ have a lot of ^%&-heads. > From: Swift Griggs > The Internet is a large, but still textbook case of what happens when > you let business-weasels in on something good. They "monetize" it and > turn it into a combination strip-mall, casino, theatre, porn-shop. "In a democracy, people generally get the kind of government they deserve." Real world strip malls, Walmart, etc exist because of _demand_. If people didn't want that stuff, it wouldn't exist. You want better? Educate people's tastes. > I even cringed when I saw Geocities dying. Yeah it was a cheesy service > but, for example, I have a friend who is a master gunsmith and put all > kinds of excellent info on a site he made. Now it's gone Some was saved: http://reocities.com/newhome/makingof.html Interesting story... >> Of course, if class A and B address blocks weren't handed out like >> candy to children in the early days, IPv4 might have lasted longer. > I still hate Network Solutions and all the NICs for that, too. Uhh, by the time we got to that stage, the taps were long turned off. All the 'space handed out freely' stuff happened back when you went to Postel for numbers - and a lot of the class A's went i) before the Internet was a going concern, and ii) in the earliest days, there were _only_ class A's. > Nowadays, folks create viruses that encrypt and/or destroy the target > for ransom the minute they can write 3 lines of code in Visual Basic. > The level of malice and thuggery have gone way up. See previous Sturgeon's Law comment... Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 27 08:26:50 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 08:26:50 -0500 Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston In-Reply-To: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> References: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <002501d1a088$74c24460$5e46cd20$@classiccmp.org> Rik wrote... ------ This morning I got the sad message of the passing of Jon Johnston the curator of the HP Museum website www.hpmusem.net. ------ Yes, I got the same email a few minutes ago. Very sad. I just had an email from him a couple weeks ago, I was preparing to send him some manuals for the museum. The website is a/the major resource for vintage HP folks, I'm hoping arrangements are in place to ensure it continues. If not, classiccmp.org stands ready to help. Jon was a great guy, and will be missed! J From pete at pski.net Wed Apr 27 08:37:55 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:37:55 -0400 Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston In-Reply-To: <002501d1a088$74c24460$5e46cd20$@classiccmp.org> References: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> <002501d1a088$74c24460$5e46cd20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <61EA89D2-FCFA-4CDF-B8BB-F079C81E7E28@pski.net> > ------ > This morning I got the sad message of the passing of Jon Johnston the > curator of the HP Museum website www.hpmuseum.net. > ------ > > The website is a/the major resource for vintage HP folks, I'm hoping > arrangements are in place to ensure it continues. If not, classiccmp.org > stands ready to help. > > J I did not know Jon, but wow, what an incredible resource he built for vintage HP computer enthusiasts. It would be a big loss to see it go away. From macro at linux-mips.org Wed Apr 27 07:47:27 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:47:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <013c01d19ffc$aa8b0eb0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c01d19ffc$aa8b0eb0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I examined the bank 8 configuration register contents using the console. It > contained 0x0136, which suggests the cache is not valid. The base address > register contained 0x4000. Both correct: * 0x4000 << (23 - 5) => 0x100000000 * 0x0136: s8_Check => 0b0 -- ECC/parity disabled s8_ColSel => 0b100 -- row/column bits: 9/9 s8_SubEna => 0b1 -- subbanks enabled s8_Size => 0b1011 -- bankset size: 2MB s8_Valid => 0b0 -- access disabled Clearly the index and the data register are wired as individual subbanks each. > I then went back to the console to check the bank 0 configuration register > which gave me 0x0069, which indicates it is valid. So there is a good chance > I am reading the right things. Indeed; memory controller register addresses are hardwired IIUC, so they're always there. As to the bankset configuration register: * 0x0069: s0_ColSel => 0b001 -- row/column bits: 12/10 or 11/11 s0_SubEna => 0b1 -- subbanks enabled s0_Size => 0b0100 -- bankset size: 64MB s0_Valid => 0b1 -- access enabled I take it it corresponds to your memory module installed. > This I think explains why I get the machine check. While in the console I > changed the bank 8 config register to 0x0137, and then I was able to read > and write to the address of the flashbus index register, but it didn't > change the LEDs when I wrote to the data register, and reading back the data > register gave me a value I didn't write. So there is still something not You won't read LEDs back as it's a write-only location, a plain octal D flip-flop presumably. Is it not a 74F273 that I can see right below the unfortunate NVRAM chip on your photo? That would be it then. Its outputs are rated 20mA each, plenty to drive LEDs without additional circuitry. Have you tried using your C program instead to poke at these LEDs? SRM might be interfering, e.g. accessing NVRAM or maybe LEDs even between your commands, and consequently your data register writes issued with `deposit' may go elsewhere as the index register has been since changed under your feet. While experimenting with C code make sure you synchronise accesses -- insert `asm("mb")' or suchlike (whatever OpenVMS C compiler supports) just after each flashbus index or data register access and read back the index register before accessing the data register to avoid weak ordering effects in the chipsed, just as noted in the system manual. > right, perhaps the other values in the bank 8 config register, because I > don't know what they mean. However the base address seems correct as it's > value is 0x4000 (the raw value in the register), and this equates to > 0x1.000.0000 based on it being bits 19 upwards in the physical address > space. Timings are documented in the chipset datasheet, though this is all cryptic of course as we don't know what the requirements are for flashbus. We could assume though that they're the same for the index and data side and then try to match them to the NVRAM being 70ns. Perhaps you could post them too? > I wonder if the SROM failing to read the DROM means that it does not set up > bank 8? Well, but didn't it poke at LEDs? It also tried to load DROM before loading SRM and PALcode from flash, both of which are on flashbus, so it must have got bank 8 right. If anything it's SRM or PALcode interfering here probably. Maciej From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Apr 27 09:47:17 2016 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:47:17 -0500 Subject: MEM11A status update In-Reply-To: <212992E9-D9AE-4D97-8520-6F64E22DA0EE@shiresoft.com> References: <212992E9-D9AE-4D97-8520-6F64E22DA0EE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5720D0F5.2040802@ubanproductions.com> Guy, I am ultimately interested in your UMF11. Will the MEM11A have any potential for expandability? Is there a perf area on the board? Any expansion connectors? Can it be re-programmed by the end user (will source be available)? Best, Tom Uban On 4/26/16 4:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Just to let folks know that I just received the prototype boards for the MEM11A (FedEx just left). > The boards look great! The parts from Digikey arrived late last week, so once I get my soldering > station set up (new microscope and new Metcal soldering iron) I?ll start to build a couple of boards > to test out. Once I have a couple working *and* I get firm orders for at least 25 boards (hint, hint) > I?ll do a production run. > > TTFN - Guy > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 10:02:40 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:02:40 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX In-Reply-To: <9616975C-A81B-427D-8A35-06F1F0EB9DF5@aracnet.com> References: <571FC6CC.2050705@oryx.us> <571FD3C0.6000602@oryx.us> <20160426213827.GE29998@brevard.conman.org> <9616975C-A81B-427D-8A35-06F1F0EB9DF5@aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Zane Healy wrote: > Don?t fret, once OpenVMS v9.0 is released, on x86-64, there won?t be any > doubt as to who won. :-) :-) Well, in the spirit of further non-participation let me (a die hard unix zealot) say that I can't wait to see VMS ported to x86-64. I think VMS is cool. I've been learning about it lately. It has some great features. > Oh, and while I?m at it, both vi and emacs suck. Give me TPU! :-) Heh, I'm one of the few Unix guys that might be inclined to agree. I can use both. However, I got used to Wordstar, then the IDE in Borland products (which is similar to Wordstar). So, my favorite editor is "joe" not Vi or Emacs, but TEHO. For me, using an editor is about familiarity, even if something takes more keystrokes etc... I find it odd that people actually argue about editors, but that's just a difference in value system. > In answer to the original question, Cameron Kaiser used to be heavily > into Mac Workgroup Servers running AIX, but I don?t think he?s on the > list any more. Ah, well lots of knowledgeable folks have responded. > In the long distant past, I used A/UX on Mac IIfx systems. I used AIX > on a variety of IBM systems, more recently, but never on an Apple > system. I'm quite comfy with AIX at this point, so I'm more interested in toying with A/UX. I had a IIci for a while. I should have tried to set that up. It's listed as compatible. I just wasn't aware of A/UX at that time. I actually learned about it after tracking down "what is that crazy looking mac-like Unix variant in Jurassic Park." It sounds like you don't need any special ROMs installed on the system, just a compatible M68k mac with an MMU. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 10:23:34 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:23:34 -0600 (MDT) Subject: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Mouse wrote: > [...] That everything is now CIDR blocks is another loss; I am not fond > of the desupporting of noncontiguous subnet masks, even though I can > understand it [...] Heh, I'm guessing you've been doing something like that for a very long time. I remember "Der Mouse" the Sun god from very early days of the net, and I suspect you are one in the same. As far as CIDR goes, I agree. I'm glad CIDR exists but sad that it needs to be this way "normally". What I've often wondered is why there are so many IT people with the same sort of laments and we haven't all collectively built our own networks over wireless ? I remember when a friend of mine who was a HAM showed me his 1200 BPS packet radio setup. I was blown away and I could envision an army of radio geeks interfacing together to form a civilian Internet (and this was before the Internet caught on). I had the same thought when Lucent Wavelan cards and subsequent wireless devices caught on. I figured we could network an entire city together using a mix of directional antennae for the long runs, and omnis for the distribution layers. Then inter-city traffic could be done with either long range elevated yagis or land lines paid for by the "collectives" in each city. Perhaps Karl Marx might have shared my vision, but the "real world" didn't. I wonder why... FCC rules too strict? The tech isn't as robust as I thought? Hidden operating costs I'm not thinking of? I'm naive, I guess. I thought we'd all be running our own little "cells" right now, not fighting for scraps of bandwidth from *horrified gasp* the dirty monopolistic cable companies and lyin' cheatin' phone companies. Meanwhile folks in places like Korea are laughing and using Fiber or Ethernet and paying pennies on the dollar compared to options we've got in the USA. -Swift From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 10:21:55 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:21:55 +0000 Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston In-Reply-To: <61EA89D2-FCFA-4CDF-B8BB-F079C81E7E28@pski.net> References: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> <002501d1a088$74c24460$5e46cd20$@classiccmp.org>, <61EA89D2-FCFA-4CDF-B8BB-F079C81E7E28@pski.net> Message-ID: > > I did not know Jon, but wow, what an incredible resource he built for vintage > HP computer enthusiasts. It would be a big loss to see it go away. I had never met Jon, but I think it is obvious from the contents of his site that we corresponded a few times. He was a great man and will be sorely missed. I do not want to be unfeeling at the loss of a human life, but I feel that his site would be a great way of remembering him and all he did to help the HP community, particularly for the larger machines. I hope it can be preserved. I know that Jay is corresponding with others over this, and I am sure he will do the right things. -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 27 10:27:04 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 11:27:04 -0400 Subject: Digital VAX, Alpha (Was RE: Mac "Workgroup Server" ... In-Reply-To: <20160427150706.9hi6zf5sx0cg000c@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> <6473CF88-D079-44D1-B9AE-7B6D9E8BF286@comcast.net> <20160427150706.9hi6zf5sx0cg000c@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <71C35AD2-6D4F-43E4-A8D6-F488B8A85BC3@comcast.net> > On Apr 27, 2016, at 9:07 AM, emu at e-bbes.com wrote: > > Zitat von Paul Koning : > >> >>> On Apr 27, 2016, at 3:47 AM, Dave Wade wrote: >>> ... >>> Digital is now a fond memory for most. Both VAX and Alpha are no longer manufactured. >>> >>> I actually wonder if an FPGA VAX chip could be made that would run faster than existing real VAXEN. That could perhaps form the basis of a nice VaxStation... >> >> Clearly that's possible given that today's clock speeds are much higher than those of any VAX, and you could put caches on-chip as well for additional points. The difficulty would be to create an accurate enough implementation. > If "accurate" means to run VMS or Unix, it shouldn't be to difficult. You might be surprised. Getting a PDP-11 FPGA to be accurate enough to run standard operating systems is hard enough (as I found out helping Sytze's "pdp2011" project). And that's a much simpler CPU than VAX. In particular, the privileged architecture tends to be critical for getting an OS to boot, and that part tends to be poorly documented (as well as variable from one CPU model to the next). > >> For that matter, by the same reasoning it should be doable (and quite possibly easier) to build an FPGA Alpha. Is the Alpha architecture manual ("SRM") online? > > Is there any demand for it, besides of being fun? I don't know. Fun is certainly a good reason for many of us. There might actually be commercial demand; some people still run production on architectures substantially older than VAX or Alpha. I don't know if there are any unexpired patents; if not, then implementing a machine from the published documentation seems fine, though running the software might require answering some licensing questions. paul From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 10:34:44 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:34:44 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Digital VAX, Alpha (Was RE: Mac "Workgroup Server" ... In-Reply-To: <20160427150706.9hi6zf5sx0cg000c@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> <6473CF88-D079-44D1-B9AE-7B6D9E8BF286@comcast.net> <20160427150706.9hi6zf5sx0cg000c@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, emu at e-bbes.com wrote: > > For that matter, by the same reasoning it should be doable (and quite > > possibly easier) to build an FPGA Alpha. Is the Alpha architecture manual > > ("SRM") online? > Is there any demand for it, besides of being fun? I would assert that there may well be. I could be wrong, but consider these tidbits: 1. There are at least 3 commercial alpha emulators (Stromasys Charon, MSI Avanti, and Alpha EmuVM). They seem to be staying in business. 2. I work with a lot of clients using Tru64. The current hardware support companies are recycling parts off ebay. I believe this is the reason you see way-to-high prices for categorically ancient Alphas. I saw someone wanting nearly $1300 for an alphastation 4/266. 3. I know for a fact the US government and a few other folks are pretty well stuck with using Alphas for "certain" things. If the vendor was OK'd by the gubment, there might be some money to be made there, too. 4. If some guy in Poland (Lotharek) was able to make an FPGA box that emulates more than 9 different platforms (albeit probably simpler ones) for under $200, then making an FPGA alpha for anywhere near that cost would certain raise some eyebrows of clients I'm dealing with. If it would all fit in 1U, then so much the better. -Swift From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 27 10:44:36 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 11:44:36 -0400 Subject: Digital VAX, Alpha (Was RE: Mac "Workgroup Server" ... In-Reply-To: References: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> <6473CF88-D079-44D1-B9AE-7B6D9E8BF286@comcast.net> <20160427150706.9hi6zf5sx0cg000c@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <31445B0C-507E-44A7-91D9-D2E4AE23C309@comcast.net> > On Apr 27, 2016, at 11:34 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > ... If it > would all fit in 1U, then so much the better. Ideal would be if it could fit in this: https://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-69215/l/fpga-development-board-cape-for-the-beaglebone paul From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 27 10:48:27 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 08:48:27 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> On 4/26/2016 11:23 PM, Erik Baigar wrote: > > > Well - "are out there" I agree, but do you know of any PRIVATELY > owned and ALIVE machines? There is lot of PDP* discussion here, but > it is very hard to get in touch with people being working on > Rolm stuff. Of course: In contrast to a non-working PDP8 (which > still looks beautiful) a defunc Rolm processor is just a very > heavy brick of metal. > > So any one out there also preserving Rolm computer hardware in > working condition? > I have my Rolm 1603 working. No peripherals hooked to it, but you can toggle in stuff from the front panel. http://dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/rolm1603_f.jpg Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Apr 27 10:53:13 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 11:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201604271553.LAA18867@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...] That everything is now CIDR blocks is another loss; I am not >> fond of the desupporting of noncontiguous subnet masks, even though >> I can understand it [...] > Heh, I'm guessing you've been doing something like that for a very > long time. Well, I was doing it a long time ago; I stopped doing it when I stopped using the address space I was doing it with. It was always something I did out of convenience rather than because I specifically wanted to run a noncontiguous subnet mask. (I used what we would now call a /29 from my then-employer, with whom I had a private link to home; then I ran out of addresses, and, rather than renumber, I just grabbed another /29 that differed from my first one by only one bit and configured my interfaces with 255.255.255.216 as a subnet mask. I was the assignment authority for the relevant subnet at the time....) > I remember "Der Mouse" the Sun god from very early days of the net, > and I suspect you are one in the same. Well, I think "Sun god" is a significant overstatement, and I'm pretty sure I never capitalized the "der", but yes, that was me. In approximately chronological order, mcgill-vision!mouse, mouse at mcrcim.mcgill.edu, mouse at cim.mcgill.ca, mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca, and now mouse at rodents-montreal.org.... I stole the "der" from German before I knew enough German to know what I was doing. Some people mistook it for a first name, some mistook it for a title (a la "Dr." or "Mr." or "Ms."), some recognized it as a German article and then tried to "correct" the rest (which was never supposed to be German, but "mouse" in German is "maus", and takes "die" rather than "der" or "das"). Eventually I decided the historical attachment to it wasn't worth the confusion it was producing and stopped using it, going with just "Mouse". > What I've often wondered is why there are so many IT people with the > same sort of laments and we haven't all collectively built our own > networks over wireless ? The crazy patchwork quilt of regulations applying to amateur use of radio spectrum, is my guess. Now, I would add the depressingly high chance of being invaded by the masses if/when we build something big enough to be useful. We've already built one network only to have it invaded and overrun; why would we expect anything different to happen to the new one? > I wonder why... FCC rules too strict? And its sister organizations in non-USA jurisdictions, yes, that would be part of it, I would guess. Many of them demand that the ham accept responsibility for all traffic sent by that ham's equipment, which would be death on forwarding packets for anyone else. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 27 10:56:15 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 08:56:15 -0700 Subject: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX In-Reply-To: References: <571FC6CC.2050705@oryx.us> <571FD3C0.6000602@oryx.us> <20160426213827.GE29998@brevard.conman.org> <9616975C-A81B-427D-8A35-06F1F0EB9DF5@aracnet.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 27, 2016, at 8:02 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Zane Healy wrote: >> Don?t fret, once OpenVMS v9.0 is released, on x86-64, there won?t be any >> doubt as to who won. :-) > > :-) Well, in the spirit of further non-participation let me (a die hard > unix zealot) say that I can't wait to see VMS ported to x86-64. I think > VMS is cool. I've been learning about it lately. It has some great > features. I?ve used both for a long time, but UNIX a bit longer. > Oh, and while I?m at it, both vi and emacs suck. Give me TPU! :-) > > Heh, I'm one of the few Unix guys that might be inclined to agree. I can > use both. However, I got used to Wordstar, then the IDE in Borland > products (which is similar to Wordstar). So, my favorite editor is "joe" > not Vi or Emacs, but TEHO. For me, using an editor is about familiarity, > even if something takes more keystrokes etc... I find it odd that people > actually argue about editors, but that's just a difference in value > system. Okay, I?m impressed! Someone that not only knows about my favorite UNIX text editor, but uses it! The first tool I install on any UNIX system, if it doesn?t have it, is ?joe?. :-) Zane From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 11:13:58 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 10:13:58 -0600 (MDT) Subject: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <201604271553.LAA18867@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201604271553.LAA18867@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Mouse wrote: > Well, I think "Sun god" is a significant overstatement, and I'm pretty > sure I never capitalized the "der", but yes, that was me. It's not an overstatement to me, sir. You would probably be very surprised if you knew how many fixes you've helped me out of. I don't know how many times I'd come across one of your posts on Sunhelp or elsewhere that'd provide the key bit of info I needed etc... So, thanks! Not to mention that IIRC, you've carried the torch (magnesium flare in your case) against top posting for as long as folks have done it! > I stole the "der" from German before I knew enough German to know what I > was doing. Heh, that reminds me of living in Norway and learning to speak Norsk (bokmal). I'd sit and watch TV (as long as it was in Bokmal, and most was in Nynorsk) in Norsk with English subtitles. Then I'd flip over and watch English shows with Norsk subtitles. Then I'd unleash myself upon the small town folk in Moss, Norway and they'd be either greatly amused or occasionally horrified by my grammar (but they were always cool and helping me learn). I slowly got better by talking to older folks. They spoke slower and were more patient with me (but I'd still often butcher things or say things they thought were hilarious). > The crazy patchwork quilt of regulations applying to amateur use of > radio spectrum, is my guess. Now, I would add the depressingly high > chance of being invaded by the masses if/when we build something big > enough to be useful. I wonder if there would ever be a chance of having something like a set of digital-only FRS frequencies but on a bandpass that's got better range (or one with perhaps better penetration). My guess on that is that those are so valuable that the FCC (and industry) wouldn't want to risk having untrained apelets near their frequencies. > We've already built one network only to have it invaded and overrun; > why would we expect anything different to happen to the new one? I'm with you, Mouse. However, perhaps if it wasn't enough bandwidth for video and the masses already got satiated via Comcast + Netflix, maybe.... just maybe they'd stay away. Bah... who am I kidding, they'd just adapt the next gen of phones to hork whatever they could from the "civilian internet" frequencies if they were available. You'd be stuffed to the gills with facebook and twitter. Ahh... despair. > Many of them demand that the ham accept responsibility for all traffic > sent by that ham's equipment, which would be death on forwarding packets > for anyone else. Ewww. I didn't think that. The pedos start freeloading and then the man comes down on the operators to satisfy the merchant outcry "Will no one rid me of this troublesome free network!" (to misquote Henry II). *sigh* Yep. -Swift From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 11:55:15 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:55:15 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 26 April 2016 at 16:41, Liam Proven wrote: > Swift, you have provided a superb example of this mockery. And now > you've been called on it, you are, in natural human fashion, lashing > out in return. > > It's natural, it's human, and it's exactly why we have the stinking > pile of crap that we do today instead of tools that actually work. I wish to apologise for this. It was unjustified and unfair, and unjustly ad-hom as well. I am getting slightly better at controlling my "FLAME ON" moments, but much more work is required. :-( I was not saying that Mr Griggs here is the reason for any of this -- that's absurd. I did imply it, though, and I shouldn't have. I'm sorry. My contention is that a large part of the reason that we have the crappy computers that we do today -- lowest-common-denominator boxes, mostly powered by one of the kludgiest and most inelegant CPU architectures of the last 40 years -- is not technical, nor even primarily commercial or due to business pressures, but rather, it's cultural. When I was playing with home micros (mainly Sinclair and Amstrad; the American stuff was just too expensive for Brits in the early-to-mid 1980s), the culture was that Real Men programmed in assembler and the main battle was Z80 versus 6502, with a few weirdos saying that 6809 was better than either. BASIC was the language for beginners, and a few weirdos maintained that Forth was better. At university, I used a VAXcluster and learned to program in Fortran-77. The labs had Acorn BBC Micros in -- solid machines, *the* best 8-bit BASIC ever, and they could interface both with lab equipment over IEEE-488 and with generic printers and so on over Centronics parallel and its RS-432 interface, which could talk to RS-232 kit. As I discovered when I moved into the professional field a few years later (1988), this wasn't that different from the pro stuff. A lot of apps were written in various BASICs, and in the old era of proprietary OSes on proprietary kit, for performance, you used assembler. But a new wave was coming. MS-DOS was already huge and the Mac was growing strongly. Windows was on v2 and was a toy, but Unix was coming to mainstream kit, or at least affordable kit. You could run Unix on PCs (e.g. SCO Xenix), on Macs (A/UX), and my employers had a demo IBM RT-6150 running AIX 1. Unix wasn't only the domain (pun intentional) of expensive kit priced in the tens of thousands. A new belief started to spread: that if you used C, you could get near-assembler performance without the pain, and the code could be ported between machines. DOS and Mac apps started to be written (or rewritten) in C, and some were even ported to Xenix. In my world, nobody used stuff like A/UX or AIX, and Xenix was specialised. I was aware of Coherent as the only "affordable" Unix, but I never saw a copy or saw it running. So this second culture of C code running on non-Unix OSes appeared. Then the OSes started to scramble to catch up with Unix -- first OS/2, then Windows 3, then the for a decade parallel universe of Windows NT, until XP became established and Win9x finally died. Meanwhile, Apple and IBM flailed around, until IBM surrendered, Apple merged with NeXT and switched to NeXTstep. Now, Windows is evolving to be more and more Unix-like, with GUI-less versions, clean(ish) separation between GUI and console apps, a new rich programmable shell, and so on. While the Mac is now a Unix box, albeit a weird one. Commercial Unix continues to wither away. OpenVMS might make a modest comeback. IBM mainframes seem to be thriving; every other kind of big iron is now emulated on x86 kit, as far as I can tell. IBM has successfully killed off several efforts to do this for z Series. So now, it's Unix except for the single remaining mainstream proprietary system: Windows. Unix today means Linux, while the weirdoes use FreeBSD. Everything else seems to be more or less a rounding error. C always was like carrying water in a sieve, so now, we have multiple C derivatives, trying to patch the holes. C++ has grown up but it's like Ada now: so huge that nobody understands it all, but actually, a fairly usable tool. There's the kinda-sorta FOSS "safe C++ in a VM", Java. The proprietary kinda-sorta "safe C++ in a VM", C#. There's the not-remotely-safe kinda-sorta C in a web browser, Javascript. And dozens of others, of course. Even the safer ones run on a basis of C -- so the lovely cuddly friendly Python, that everyone loves, has weird C printing semantics to mess up the heads of beginners. Perl has abandoned its base, planned to move onto a VM, then the VM went wrong, and now has a new VM and to general amazement and lack of interest, Perl 6 is finally here. All the others are still implemented in C, mostly on a Unix base, like Ruby, or on a JVM base, like Clojure and Scala. So they still have C like holes and there are frequent patches and updates to try to make them able to retain some water for a short time, while the "cyber criminals" make hundreds of millions. Anything else is "uncommercial" or "not viable for real world use". Borland totally dropped the ball and lost a nice little earner in Delphi, but it continues as Free Pascal and so on. Apple goes its own way, but has forgotten the truly innovative projects it had pre-NeXT, such as Dylan. There were real projects that were actually used for real work, like Oberon the OS, written in Oberon the language. Real pioneering work in UIs, such as Jef Raskin's machines, the original Mac and Canon Cat -- forgotten. People rhapsodise over the Amiga and forget that the planned OS, CAOS, to be as radical as the hardware, never made it out of the lab. Same, on a smaller scale, with the Acorn Archimedes. Despite that, of course, Lisp never went away. People still use it, but they keep their heads down and get on with it. Much the same applies to Smalltalk. Still there, still in use, still making real money and doing real work, but forgotten all the same. The Lisp Machines and Smalltalk boxes lost the workstation war. Unix won, and as history is written by the victors, now the alternatives are forgotten or dismissed as weird kooky toys of no serious merit. The senior Apple people didn't understand the essence of what they saw at PARC: they only saw the chrome. They copied the chrome, not the essence, and now all that *any* of us have is the chrome. We have GUIs, but on top of the nasty kludgy hacks of C and the like. A late-'60s skunkware project now runs the world, and the real serious research efforts to make something better, both before and after, are forgotten historical footnotes. Modern computers are a vast disappointment to me. We have no thinking machines. The Fifth Generation, Lisp, all that -- gone. What did we get instead? Like dinosaurs, the expensive high-end machines of the '70s and '80s didn't evolve into their successors. They were just replaced. First little cheapo 8-bits, not real or serious at all, although they were cheap and people did serious stuff with them because it's all they could afford. The early 8-bits ran semi-serious OSes such as CP/M, but when their descendants sold a thousand times more, those descendants weren't running descendants of that OS -- no, it and its creator died. CP/M evolved into a multiuser multitasking 386 OS that could run multiple MS-DOS apps on terminals, but it died. No, then the cheapo 8-bits thrived in the form of an 8/16-bit hybrid, the 8086 and 8088, and a cheapo knock-off of CP/M. This got a redesign into something grown-up: OS/2. Predictably, that died. So the hacked-together GUI for DOS got re-invigorated with an injection of OS/2 code, as Windows 3. That took over the world. The rivals - the Amiga, ST, etc? 680x0 chips, lots of flat memory, whizzy graphics and sound? All dead. Then Windows got re-invented with some OS/2 3 ideas and code, and some from VMS, and we got Windows NT. But the marketing men got to it and ruined its security and elegance, to produce the lipstick-and-high-heels Windows XP. That version, insecure and flakey with its terrible bodged-in browser, that, of course, was the one that sold. Linux got nowhere until it copied the XP model. The days of small programs, everything's a text file, etc. -- all forgotten. Nope, lumbering GUI apps, CORBA and RPC and other weird plumbing, huge complex systems, but it looks and works kinda like Windows and a Mac now so it looks like them and people use it. Android looks kinda like iOS and people use it in their billions. Newton? Forgotten. No, people have Unix in their pocket, only it's a bloated successor of Unix. The efforts to fix and improve Unix -- Plan 9, Inferno -- forgotten. A proprietary microkernel Unix-like OS for phones -- Blackberry 10, based on QNX -- not Androidy enough, and bombed. We have less and less choice, made from worse parts on worse foundations -- but it's colourful and shiny and the world loves it. That makes me despair. We have poor-quality tools, built on poorly-designed OSes, running on poorly-designed chips. Occasionally, fragments of older better ways, such as functional-programming tools, or Lisp-based development environments, are layered on top of them, but while they're useful in their way, they can't fix the real problems underneath. Occasionally someone comes along and points this out and shows a better way -- such as Curtis Yarvin's Urbit. Lisp Machines re-imagined for the 21st century, based on top of modern machines. But nobody gets it, and its programmer has some unpleasant and unpalatable ideas, so it's doomed. And the kids who grew up after C won the battle deride the former glories, the near-forgotten brilliance that we have lost. And it makes me want to cry sometimes, and I lash out in turn. I apologise unreservedly for my intemperance. I just wanted to try to explain why I did it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From spc at conman.org Wed Apr 27 11:55:37 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 12:55:37 -0400 Subject: The Ivory Tower saga was Re: strangest systems I've sent email In-Reply-To: <201604270434.AAA24458@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <377108359.1484492.1461606650387.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571E6C2F.6000100@sydex.com> <1708121571.1628795.1461620799790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <78277B27-7880-4C88-B01E-9DC68369898B@swri.edu> <20160426183808.GA29998@brevard.conman.org> <20160426184449.GB29998@brevard.conman.org> <201604270434.AAA24458@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160427165536.GA20423@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated: > > Take also, for example, Lisp. I've used Lisp. I even wrote a Lisp > engine. I love the language, even though I almost never use it. But > some of the mental patterns it has given me inform much of the code I > write regardless of language. I have seen it said that a language that > does not change the way you think about programming is not worth > knowing. In my case, it wasn't knowing a language that changed how I think about programming, but a book, _Thinking Forth_ by Leo Brodie. Think Agile programming but in the mid-80s instead of the early 2000s. That it described programming in Forth is immaterial---I've been able to apply the lessons from that book to every language I've used since reading it. The other book that changed how I program was _Writing Solid Code_ by Steve Maguire (from Microsoft Press of all places). Think programming by contract and single purpose functions [1]. The only languages that have had any influence on how I program are the functional languages (summary: no globals, pass in state and avoid mutations as much as possible)---it's not one single language. > People have remarked on the knowing of multiple languages. I would say > it matters terribly what the languages in question are. I think knowing the different families and how they work is important than any individual language. > Knowing C, > JavaScript, Pascal, and awk is, for example, very very different from > knowing Lisp, Prolog, Objective-C, and TeX, even though each one hits > the same putative "knows four languages" tickbox on a hiring form. True, and if I were hiring, I might worry that the programmer who knew Lisp, Prolog, Objective-C and TeX might not want to work here where we deal with C, C++ and Javascript as they're "not as nice to work with." But I wouldn't discount them either. > I > draw a sharp distinction between "programming" and "programming in > $LANGUAGE", for any value of $LANGUAGE. Someone who knows the latter > may be able to get a job writing code in $LANGUAGE...but someone who > groks the former can pick up any language in relatively short order. > The bracketed note in the second paragraph of content on > http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/personality.html is exactly the sort of > thing I'm talking about here; ESR taught himself TeX by the simple > expedient of reading the TeXBook. You mean not everybody does this? > One particular message seems to me to call for individual response: > > > There are two major language families: declarative and imperative. > > [...] Declarative langauges are [...]. A few langauges under this > > family: > > > Prolog > > Agreed, though AIUI the presence of cuts weakens this somewhat. > (Caveat, I don't really grok Prolog; I may be misunderstanding.) Cuts are a form of optimization (if I understand what they do). They just cut down on the problem space. > > make (and yes, make is a declarative language) > > Only, I would say, in its simplest forms. Every make implementation I > know of (including both at least one BSD variant and at least one > version of GNU make) stops looking very declarative when you have to do > anything at all complex. I think those are poorly written Makefiles then. I've dived into GnuMake rather deeply over the past year, and it's amazing how concise you can make a Makefile, even for a large project. And the hardest part is really getting the dependencies correct (but when you do, "make -j" really flies on modern hardware). > > SQL > > I don't see SQL as declarative. I see it as imperative, with the > relational table as its primary data type. That the programmer doesn't > have to hand-hold the implementation in figuring out how to perform a > SELECT doesn't make SQL declarative any more than the code not > describing how to implement mapcar makes Lisp declarative. I don't see it a imperative. SELECT what FROM there WHERE ... ORDER-BY ... You just describe what you want and how you want it ordered, unless I'm missing something else. Granted, I don't work a lot with SQL (or with stored procedures). -spc [1] The book used the realloc() function as the example---this function can allocate and free memory, depending upon the parameters. In fact, every possible combination of parameters is valid but will do radically different things. It doesn't make testing harder (in this case) but a logical misstep is harder to track down. Better would be to have: void *memory_alloc(size_t); void *memory_grow(void *,size_t); void *memory_shrink(void *,size_t); void memory_free(void *); Where you are explicit about what you are doing (and for convenience, I can see memory_grow(NULL,x) being valid (allocate memory) to mimic the reason realloc() is mostly used for. From spc at conman.org Wed Apr 27 12:00:46 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:00:46 -0400 Subject: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160427170046.GB20423@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated: > > And I spend over $80/month for DSL to a provider that gives me a /29 > and a /60 from globally routed space. (That everything is now CIDR > blocks is another loss; I am not fond of the desupporting of > noncontiguous subnet masks, even though I can understand it - I'm the > only person I've ever heard of running that way other than for > testing.) One benefit of contiguous subnet masks is that it makes routing faster. It's still a linear search, but it's based on the average length of the netmask instead of the total number of entries. Granted, I'm looking at this from the perspective of a router and not a computer (which might have a few routing entries vs. hundreds or thousands). I've implemented such an algorithm to deal with spam (quick address lookup). -spc From spc at conman.org Wed Apr 27 12:02:25 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:02:25 -0400 Subject: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <201604271553.LAA18867@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201604271553.LAA18867@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160427170225.GC20423@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated: > > > What I've often wondered is why there are so many IT people with the > > same sort of laments and we haven't all collectively built our own > > networks over wireless ? > > The crazy patchwork quilt of regulations applying to amateur use of > radio spectrum, is my guess. Now, I would add the depressingly high > chance of being invaded by the masses if/when we build something big > enough to be useful. We've already built one network only to have it > invaded and overrun; why would we expect anything different to happen > to the new one? Just look into the political machinations of what was known as FidoNet to see how this could end up. -spc ("The fighting was intense because the stakes were so low ... ") From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 27 12:04:28 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:04:28 -0400 Subject: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <20160427170046.GB20423@brevard.conman.org> References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160427170046.GB20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: > On Apr 27, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated: >> >> And I spend over $80/month for DSL to a provider that gives me a /29 >> and a /60 from globally routed space. (That everything is now CIDR >> blocks is another loss; I am not fond of the desupporting of >> noncontiguous subnet masks, even though I can understand it - I'm the >> only person I've ever heard of running that way other than for >> testing.) > > One benefit of contiguous subnet masks is that it makes routing faster. > It's still a linear search, Not necessarily. You can do a lot better than linear search for route lookup. That can be done with non-contiguous subnet masks too (I remember reading a paper from 30ish years ago on that), but it takes less space -- fewer lookup table entries -- if the subnet masks are contiguous because then each subnet is only one numeric range rather than several. I think the main argument against non-contiguous masks is that it's a feature without a purpose, and a popular source of bugs. paul From spc at conman.org Wed Apr 27 12:05:08 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:05:08 -0400 Subject: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX In-Reply-To: References: <571FC6CC.2050705@oryx.us> <571FD3C0.6000602@oryx.us> <20160426213827.GE29998@brevard.conman.org> <9616975C-A81B-427D-8A35-06F1F0EB9DF5@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20160427170508.GD20423@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated: > > Oh, and while I?m at it, both vi and emacs suck. Give me TPU! :-) > > Heh, I'm one of the few Unix guys that might be inclined to agree. I can > use both. However, I got used to Wordstar, then the IDE in Borland > products (which is similar to Wordstar). So, my favorite editor is "joe" > not Vi or Emacs, but TEHO. For me, using an editor is about familiarity, > even if something takes more keystrokes etc... I find it odd that people > actually argue about editors, but that's just a difference in value > system. They argue because each wants to spead "The Good News". And for the record, I too use joe, but only because I can't use PE any more. -spc (See "The Life of Brian" to see where this leads ... ) From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 27 12:07:34 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 10:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <20160427170225.GC20423@brevard.conman.org> References: <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201604271553.LAA18867@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160427170225.GC20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated: >> >>> What I've often wondered is why there are so many IT people with the >>> same sort of laments and we haven't all collectively built our own >>> networks over wireless ? >> >> The crazy patchwork quilt of regulations applying to amateur use of >> radio spectrum, is my guess. Now, I would add the depressingly high >> chance of being invaded by the masses if/when we build something big >> enough to be useful. We've already built one network only to have it >> invaded and overrun; why would we expect anything different to happen >> to the new one? > > Just look into the political machinations of what was known as FidoNet to > see how this could end up. > What IS known as FidoNet (1:138/142 here. :) ) and it's still a political shit-show, mostly due to people from Zone 2. *sigh* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 12:07:46 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 11:07:46 -0600 (MDT) Subject: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <20160427170046.GB20423@brevard.conman.org> References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160427170046.GB20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > One benefit of contiguous subnet masks is that it makes routing faster. > It's still a linear search, but it's based on the average length of the > netmask instead of the total number of entries. That sounds similar to the idea of route summarization. Without it, core routers wouldn't be able to do what they do fast enough, as you probably are already well aware. http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/definition/route-summarization -Swift From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 12:09:01 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 10:09:01 -0700 Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston In-Reply-To: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> References: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <8D49DEC8-2B94-43CF-BD91-C66DF25831C7@gmail.com> Oh, what a terrible news. His website is such a tremendous resource for HP collectors. Researched, organized, encyclopedic. I don?t know how many times I used it just to get accurate history and technical information on what I was acquiring, and then for the ensuing restorations. And he linked back to every single one of my resulting restoration videos or demos. I hope the museum and site survives his passing and passion. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of Rik Bos Organization: CCE Reply-To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 2:48 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/father-of-three-jon-johnston-died- in-tibet-during-a-trek-in-the-himalayas/news-story/501c804577a833b0964016bae 87fd318 From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 12:19:48 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 10:19:48 -0700 Subject: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is most certainly PLS On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 6:00 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > > The spec sheet from the PAL mfg. (signetics PLS173) seems to indicate > > security fuses aren't an option on the model on my board. I have not > > actually tried yet. > > > > A PLS173 does not have a security fuse. > A PLUS173 does have a security fuse. > > On my CMD CDU-720/M there are some PLS173 parts, but the CSR decode > PAL is a PLUS173 part, so I assume it is secured. > > Double check whether the CSR decode PAL on your CDU-710 is a PLS173 or > a PLUS173. > > -Glen > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 12:36:05 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 10:36:05 -0700 Subject: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 27, 2016 10:19 AM, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > It is most certainly PLS > Interesting. Then we should definitely try reading it and if we can we should be able to turn the fuse map back into the logic equations. A PLS173 is a fairly straightforward device. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 27 12:44:25 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:44:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from References: <1392455335.2673389.1461779065645.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1392455335.2673389.1461779065645.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Wed, 4/27/16, Liam Proven wrote: > ... with a few weirdos saying that 6809 was better than > ... and a few weirdos maintained that Forth was better. > ... while the weirdoes use FreeBSD. I've never been more proud to be classified as a weirdo :) > The efforts to fix and improve Unix -- Plan 9, Inferno -- forgotten. Plan 9 and Inferno are still around. There are quite a few of us who still use them on a regular basis. In fact, the Plan 9 updates for the new Pi 3 should be out very soon, and I have a student currently working on a port of Plan 9 to the Allwinner A20 found in the Banana Pi and several of the low-end tablets. > That makes me despair. I feel much the same way, but it leads me to a little different place. While I'll probably never be there entirely, I am now at a point where I am giving serious thought to only running software I write myself. For example, the file system I run on my home file server (a Plan 9 box) is something I wrote myself. The version of Scheme I use on Inferno is one I wrote, etc. The truth is if you're willing to be one of the weirdos, there are still some pretty interesting places to be in the computing world. There are still interesting languages both old and new to learn. (I had a blast last summer working with MCPL, an experimental offshoot of BCPL, and the ENIAC simulator I'm developing is written in Go.) I find life to be much more enjoyable and my blood pressure to be much lower as long as I steer away from anything that's mainstream or popular. BLS From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 27 12:53:47 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:53:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: The Ivory Tower saga was Re: strangest systems I've sent email References: <857063421.2736098.1461779627654.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <857063421.2736098.1461779627654.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Wed, 4/27/16, Sean Conner wrote: > > The bracketed note in the second paragraph of content on > > http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/personality.html is exactly the sort of > > thing I'm talking about here; ESR taught himself TeX by the simple > > expedient of reading the TeXBook. > > ? You mean not everybody does this? Alas, no, but that's really the point I was getting at with the comment about knowing multiple languages. It wasn't about the languages themselves or what value the variety itself brings. I pulled the half dozen number out of the air just because if I look back over any 6 to 12 month period of my career, I've used a good half dozen during that period. What's important to me isn't the effect on the candidate's programming; it's the independence, self-motivation, and curiosity that learning many languages represents. I also like to see evidence that the candidate recognizes that no skilled artisan's toolbox contains only a single tool. My biggest complaint about new grads is the view that all the world's a nail, because the only tool in their toolbox is a hammer. BLS From scaron at diablonet.net Wed Apr 27 12:57:44 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > On 4/26/2016 11:23 PM, Erik Baigar wrote: >> >> >> Well - "are out there" I agree, but do you know of any PRIVATELY >> owned and ALIVE machines? There is lot of PDP* discussion here, but >> it is very hard to get in touch with people being working on >> Rolm stuff. Of course: In contrast to a non-working PDP8 (which >> still looks beautiful) a defunc Rolm processor is just a very >> heavy brick of metal. >> >> So any one out there also preserving Rolm computer hardware in >> working condition? >> > > I have my Rolm 1603 working. No peripherals hooked to it, but you can toggle > in stuff from the front panel. > http://dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/rolm1603_f.jpg > I don't have any ROLM computers (not that I wouldn't love one) but I am proud to say that I have a complete ROLM SCBX 8000. I've tried to take some pictures and compile some information on my personal site: http://wildflower.diablonet.net/~scaron/rolmfieldguide/index.html I just need to figure out how to get the rack out of my basement and into my garage! I do have diskettes for the system ... hopefully they're still good ... someday I hope to have it up and running. Best, Sean P.S. Thanks, again, Bob for helping those two microVAX machines get to Michigan! So nice to have my Q-bus itch scratched again ;) From scaron at diablonet.net Wed Apr 27 13:07:24 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:07:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Digital (Was RE: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX) In-Reply-To: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> References: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Dave Wade wrote: >>> >> >> Don?t fret, once OpenVMS v9.0 is released, on x86-64, there won?t be any doubt >> as to who won. :-) >> > > Sadly, no one won. I doubt any one (well perhaps not anyone) would consider OpenVMS for a new deployment. > > Upgrading existing environments, yes, but a new green field site. It would have to have very good reasons. > (I know you will all come out with some, but perhaps one for every 10,000 Linux and/or Windows Server deployments.) > > Digital is now a fond memory for most. Both VAX and Alpha are no longer manufactured. > > I actually wonder if an FPGA VAX chip could be made that would run faster than existing real VAXEN. That could perhaps form the basis of a nice VaxStation... > ... on browsing I found this... > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/journal/v7/vax_6000_emulator.pdf > > Dave > I don't know ... I know the primary market is probably legacy environments but I'm really, really excited that OpenVMS is making it to x86-64 and as a working sys admin, I wouldn't hesitate to pitch OpenVMS for certain situations if I felt it was right for the job ... I'm mostly a UNIX guy but I've always thought OpenVMS was cool, too, no prejudice. I encourage OS diversity ;) Particularly in the HPC space ... I would love to put a cluster built on VMS against a cluster built on Linux and compare availability, throughput and uptime over the course of a year ... Results could be interesting. I'm sure like a lot of folks on here, I have a lot of positive nostalgia associated with DEC (and I'm pretty young) ... I will always be a fan for sure. But versus Linux ... which has swept the market ... OpenVMS does have some real technical merits to stand on. It doesn't just have to be for legacy applications and hobbyists. Best, Sean From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 13:10:27 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 11:10:27 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Nice! Marc I have my Rolm 1603 working. No peripherals hooked to it, but you can toggle in stuff from the front panel. http://dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/rolm1603_f.jpg Bob From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 13:15:32 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 12:15:32 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > I wish to apologise for this. It was unjustified and unfair, and > unjustly ad-hom as well. Well, that's mighty big of you Liam. You are clearly a brilliant guy with a storied career and bristling with skills I only wish I had. As I read through your post here, I also got a lot more grit and understanding of why folks get as irritated as they do when I associate my bumbling college profs with something like LISP. It's silly of me to associate a language with a group of people. It's human, but still not very bright of me. LISP certainly has a lot of smart people advocating for it. It seems to represent a lost ideal or paradigm to them and it's I can see it's nasty of me to step on that, even if that's not my direct design to hurt them. > My contention is that a large part of the reason that we have the crappy > computers that we do today [...] is not technical, nor even primarily > commercial or due to business pressures, but rather, it's cultural. I share your lament. > the culture was that Real Men programmed in assembler and the main > battle was Z80 versus 6502, with a few weirdos saying that 6809 was > better than either. One thing that also keeps jumping out at me over and over is how I meet people with the same kind of experiences you describe and they are often much more skilled and better critical thinkers than folks I know from my generation or younger. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of young shining stars, but they just don't seem to occur with the same frequency. I have surmised that I am standing on the shoulders of giants going all the way back to folks like Grace Hopper, and that it's more and more difficult to grow in this field in the same way as the "old timers" (which for me is anyone who worked in the industry before 1989, I realize it's all relative). All "you guys" seemed to start out with math or EE background and filling in the CS parts seems to be trivial for you. I look up to your generation, believe it or not. > The labs had Acorn BBC Micros in -- solid machines, *the* best 8-bit > BASIC ever, I'm a bit sad those never caught on in the states. They are neat machines. > But a new wave was coming. MS-DOS was already huge and the Mac was > growing strongly. Windows was on v2 and was a toy, but Unix was coming For me, as a teen in the 1990s. I associated Unix with scientists, engineers, and "thinkers" in general. I'd walk into somewhere to fix a monitor or printer (I was a bench tech for a while) and the Unix guys wouldn't want me near their stuff. They could fix it themselves and they didn't want some punk kid who knew MSDOS to touch them. Meanwhile all the people I didn't respect (PHBs and other business-aligned folks) used beige boxes running DOS. I knew I was in the wrong place. > A new belief started to spread: that if you used C, you could get > near-assembler performance without the pain, and the code could be > ported between machines. DOS and Mac apps started to be written (or > rewritten) in C, and some were even ported to Xenix. Wasn't that kind of true, though? I've heard it said "C is nothing more than a macro assembler". I'm a C programmer as you might expect. I'd heartily agree. However, being a C programmer I also see C's warts. It's not big on syntactic sugar, but it does get the job done in a straightforward and pragmatic way. I do plenty of OO in other languages, but I still prefer procedural & structured coding techniques most of the time (as long as it effectively solves the problems). However, I'd reach for an OO language or heavily abuse callbacks in C if I needed to do a simulation. > [...] Apple merged with NeXT and switched to NeXTstep. I still like to show non-coders how all these OSX library calls often *still* start with "ns" (next step). > Now, Windows is evolving to be more and more Unix-like, with GUI-less > versions, clean(ish) separation between GUI and console apps, a new rich > programmable shell, and so on. It reminds me of the famous statement "Those who do not learn from Unix are doomed to re-invent it... poorly." Windows 10 inclusion of bash seems to me to be a white flag on the part of Microsoft saying "You guys were right." Especially after pushing Powershell so hard. Of course, I'm sure the devils advocate would say "It's just a greater diversity in a massive constellation of functionality in Windows" > While the Mac is now a Unix box, albeit a weird one. A very weird one. Most of my Unix zealot friends use Macs now. I still use the console :-) If I must, then I'll use fluxbox in X11 on top of NetBSD. > Commercial Unix continues to wither away. OpenVMS might make a modest > comeback. Go VMS. I hope VSI can pull it off. I also hope they change their licensing terms to be less draconian. IMHO, that's what hurt them so badly in the 90s after Ken Olsen left. They wanted to LMF license every little bit of Tru64 and VMS. There is the hobbyist program, yes. However, you don't need to mess with that to download Linux, and that's still an accessibility gap. > IBM has successfully killed off several efforts to do this for z Series. In order to prevent your goose that laid the golden egg from losing her value (as a dead or emulated goose), you need to kill the goose hunters. :-) > So now, it's Unix except for the single remaining mainstream proprietary > system: Windows. Unix today means Linux, while the weirdoes use FreeBSD. > Everything else seems to be more or less a rounding error. Color me weirdo and rounding error since I mainly use NetBSD. It doesn't change the truth of your statement, though. :-) > Even the safer ones run on a basis of C IMHO, C is the most portable language in the world, not Java. IIRC, many java runtimes are still written in C. Anytime someone makes a new processor one of the first things they do is port a C compiler, making a lot more stuff possible. > Perl has abandoned its base, planned to move onto a VM, then the VM went > wrong, and now has a new VM and to general amazement and lack of > interest, Perl 6 is finally here. I started learning and using Perl until all this weirdness happened and they bolted on OO etc... I'm not anti OO but it was all just too much more me. I bolted to Ruby and Lua. No disrespect to the Perl Monks, I just couldn't hang anymore. > So they still have C like holes and there are frequent patches and > updates to try to make them able to retain some water for a short time, > while the "cyber criminals" make hundreds of millions. I mostly agree, but I would like to say a few things about security issues and C. * Buffer overflows and string format exploits are the biggest side-effects, security wise. They aren't nearly as common as they were. There is greater awareness among programmers, compilers, and scanning tools now (valgrind, rats, etc). Plus the exploit writers have found more fertile ground in things like SQL injection and CGI interfaces. * They are pretty easy to prevent most of the time, especially if you care enough to check or use something like stack-smashing prevention in your compiler. Also thinks like OS heap randomization has made exploits much harder. * Yes, they still happen, and still *can* happen, so I don't dispute that. > Anything else is "uncommercial" or "not viable for real world use". I think this is some phrase I often throw around a little too cavalier. Just because a language isn't popular doesn't mean I can't learn something from it. > Borland totally dropped the ball and lost a nice little earner in > Delphi, but it continues as Free Pascal and so on. It boggles me, actually. There were some awesome Delphi coders out there. I thought they'd never be derailed, because they were actually *very* effective coders I'd seen really powering certain businesses. Did Borland hork things up or what ? > Apple goes its own way, but has forgotten the truly innovative projects > it had pre-NeXT, such as Dylan. And amazing things like Amoeba, Sprite, MOSIX and others have also sort of dried up and died on the vine. There were some great ideas there. > The Lisp Machines and Smalltalk boxes lost the workstation war. Unix > won, and as history is written by the victors, now the alternatives are > forgotten or dismissed as weird kooky toys of no serious merit. I also get that things are lost in this type of "war" the merits and interesting side of LISP machines etc.. It's not a good thing. > CP/M evolved into a multiuser multitasking 386 OS that could run > multiple MS-DOS apps on terminals, but it died. Hmm, was that before or after things like Desqview came along? I'd probably guess that's why or just the momentum DOS had for a while. > So the hacked-together GUI for DOS got re-invigorated with an injection > of OS/2 code, as Windows 3. That took over the world. Which was hard to believe for me, too. It must have been a cost thing. Folks could have had an Amiga, ST, Acorn, Mac, OS/2 (depending on how far back), a low-end Unix box, etc.. However, I guess ultimately people wanted whatever they could go to their local software shop and get software for. It still is a mystery to me why DOS was so popular. > But the marketing men got to it and ruined its security and elegance, to > produce the lipstick-and-high-heels Windows XP. That version, insecure > and flakey with its terrible bodged-in browser, that, of course, was the > one that sold. I know, man, there is no accounting for taste. > Linux got nowhere until it copied the XP model. Now, as you also allude to, they have started to copy Windows. Linus seems to have shifted his attitudes greatly. Check out what he says about GGI then what he says about Systemd: From: http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=89089527200744&w=2 "I don't see the world in black-and-white. I don't actually like Linux-only features unless they have a good reason for them, and I really like Linux to be a "standard" system " -Linus 1998 " I'm distrustful of projects that do not have well-defined goals, and well-defined interfaces. They tend to bloat and do "everything" over time. This is what gives us horrors like GNU emacs and Mach: they don't try to do one thing well, they try to do _everything_ based on some loose principle [..]" -Linus 1998 Now fast forward to 2015: "I have to say, I don't really get the hatred of systemd. I think it improves a lot on the state of init, and no, I don't see myself getting into that whole area." -Linus 2015 I'll leave the readers to decide if that's hyperbole or there is something real there. It'll probably split right down the fracture point with systemd haters vs advocates, I suppose. It still seems pretty emblematic to me. > [...] plumbing, huge complex systems, but it looks and works kinda like > Windows and a Mac now so it looks like them and people use it. My theory is that once folks woke up to the potential the Internet had for improving their real lives, they didn't care how much they polluted the computing world to get access to that power, and they weren't about to abide having to learn anything new if they didn't have to. > Android looks kinda like iOS and people use it in their billions. > Newton? Forgotten. No, people have Unix in their pocket, only it's a > bloated successor of Unix. My personal opinion is that though those devices might give devs a taste of *some* of the power of Unix, none of those devices show the *user* any of the so-called "Unix philosophy" (KISS, everything is a file, etc..). What's also sad is that those users don't give a hoot. However, I'm not really surprised. I grew up in an era when computers were NOT cool for kids. If you liked them or wanted to play games on a computer, that made you a "nerd" or "geek" when those words were purely pejorative. Now those same people can't look up from their phones long enough to keep from falling down stairs, walking in front of subway trains, or uhh.... living. I still carry a Symbian phone since I find both Android and iOS so invasive and annoying. It's a strange shake up on the world I grew up in. > The efforts to fix and improve Unix -- Plan 9, Inferno -- forgotten. Plan 9 is still being (very slowly) developed. Ken is still involved last I heard. > We have less and less choice, made from worse parts on worse foundations > -- but it's colourful and shiny and the world loves it. That makes me > despair. Right there with you, Liam. Someone posted today about the good parts of the Internet that we got with the deal. Massive communication and documentation are truly positive side effects for the most part. However, I suppose I have mixed feelings, nonetheless. > We have poor-quality tools, built on poorly-designed OSes, running on > poorly-designed chips. Yes, and even though there is *more* overall documentation on the Internet, the docs you get with hardware and tools are nowhere near as good as they were in the 80s AFAIK. Nobody ships manuals with source code and schematics. The last I saw of that was BeOS and The Be Book. > Occasionally someone comes along and points this out and shows a better > way -- such as Curtis Yarvin's Urbit. Lisp Machines re-imagined for the > 21st century, based on top of modern machines. But nobody gets it, and > its programmer has some unpleasant and unpalatable ideas, so it's > doomed. Well, when it comes to that front, I've been in this business for about 20 years now, and I don't understand those efforts. > And the kids who grew up after C won the battle deride the former > glories, the near-forgotten brilliance that we have lost. I see that and I can better appreciate where you are coming from when you couch it this way. Only the good die young. "Some will rise by sin and some by virtue fall." -Shakespear > I apologise unreservedly for my intemperance. I just wanted to try to > explain why I did it. I completely understand. I am sorry for associating LISP with some crappy experiences I had in school 20 years ago. You and other folks come from a noble tradition. It was wrong of me to scorn that, even for an unrelated reason. -Swift From scaron at diablonet.net Wed Apr 27 13:16:47 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:16:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Digital VAX, Alpha (Was RE: Mac "Workgroup Server" ... In-Reply-To: References: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> <6473CF88-D079-44D1-B9AE-7B6D9E8BF286@comcast.net> <20160427150706.9hi6zf5sx0cg000c@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > > 3. I know for a fact the US government and a few other folks are pretty > well stuck with using Alphas for "certain" things. If the vendor was > OK'd by the gubment, there might be some money to be made there, too. > That is interesting. So does Raytheon or someone still make a custom CPU with the Alpha ISA? Or maybe foundryless, soft core, etc. I wasn't aware of that. I was browsing around a few months back and found a catalog from a Russian electronics company. Current catalog ... and they appear to still be doing PDP-11 ... I know for sure ... and possibly VAX ... might be confabulating that ... CPUs. I thought that was neat. Assumedly for some mil-spec use. Best, Sean From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 27 13:46:04 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 12:46:04 -0600 Subject: Digital VAX, Alpha (Was RE: Mac "Workgroup Server" ... In-Reply-To: <20160427150706.9hi6zf5sx0cg000c@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> <6473CF88-D079-44D1-B9AE-7B6D9E8BF286@comcast.net> <20160427150706.9hi6zf5sx0cg000c@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <572108EC.6060105@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/27/2016 7:07 AM, emu at e-bbes.com wrote: >> For that matter, by the same reasoning it should be doable (and quite >> possibly easier) to build an FPGA Alpha. Is the Alpha architecture >> manual ("SRM") online? > > Is there any demand for it, besides of being fun? 1st build a front pannel, then worry about the inside. > Cheers > Ben. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 27 13:50:10 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from Message-ID: <20160427185010.CFAB218C127@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Liam Proven > There's the not-remotely-safe kinda-sorta C in a web browser, > Javascript. Love the rant, which I mostly agree with (_especially_ that one). A couple of comments: > So they still have C like holes and there are frequent patches and > updates to try to make them able to retain some water for a short time, > while the "cyber criminals" make hundreds of millions. It's not clear to me that a 'better language' is going to get rid of that, because there will always be bugs (and the bigger the application, and the more it gets changed, the more there will be). The vibe I get from my knowledge of security is that it takes a secure OS, running on hardware that enforces security, to really fix the problem. (Google "Roger Schell".) > The Lisp Machines and Smalltalk boxes lost the workstation war. Unix > won, and as history is written by the victors Custom hardware for running LISP lost (not sure about Smalltalk, don't know much about it), I am quite sure, mostly because 'mainstream' CPUs got so much faster/cheaper, because of the volume. I saw this happening in the AI Lab at MIT: when you could run LISP on a workstation with a vanilla CPU much faster than a specialized LISP processor, that's all she wrote. (That effect killed all sorts of things, not just LISP machines, of course.) Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 27 14:15:17 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:15:17 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160427185010.CFAB218C127@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160427185010.CFAB218C127@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Apr 27, 2016, at 2:50 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > ... > It's not clear to me that a 'better language' is going to get rid of that, > because there will always be bugs (and the bigger the application, and the > more it gets changed, the more there will be). The vibe I get from my > knowledge of security is that it takes a secure OS, running on hardware that > enforces security, to really fix the problem. (Google "Roger Schell".) Those things can be useful at times, but they are neither necessary nor sufficient. For example, while Unix is reasonably secure, application writers have managed to create massive numbers of security holes that have nothing to do with defects of the OS, and aren't cured by a better OS. A better language might help (C is the mother of most security bugs). But the most critical component that is generally missing is a design attitude that both the design and the implementation need to be CORRECT. Such design attitudes are very rare. Dijkstra made it his life's mission to promote this. He demonstrated it in such places as the THE operating system design (read the paper). Note, by the way, that's a secure system running on hardware that provides no protection. By contrast, the common technique of "type in some code, then edit and recompile and rerun until it seems to work" cannot deliver reliable programs. paul From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Apr 27 14:43:49 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:43:49 -0400 Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston Message-ID: <42c1ae.3a0f5361.44527075@aol.com> Jon was always helpful always cheerful and never snarky this issad.... very sad indeed we have lost an ally. Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC In a message dated 4/27/2016 10:09:08 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com writes: Oh, what a terrible news. His website is such a tremendous resource for HP collectors. Researched, organized, encyclopedic. I don?t know how many times I used it just to get accurate history and technical information on what I was acquiring, and then for the ensuing restorations. And he linked back to every single one of my resulting restoration videos or demos. I hope the museum and site survives his passing and passion. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of Rik Bos Organization: CCE Reply-To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 2:48 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/father-of-three-jon-johnston-died- in-tibet-during-a-trek-in-the-himalayas/news-story/501c804577a833b0964016bae 87fd318 From macro at linux-mips.org Wed Apr 27 14:52:38 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:52:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > Also, I still deal with a lot of business clients running alphas and > Tru64. There is a guy in Thornton, Colorado who I get quite a few dead, > spare, and orphaned alphas from. It's an electronics supply type business. > I'll see him this weekend and I can ask him if he's got any spares or dead > mobos he could fork over. Does he get any mechanical parts as well by any chance? I've been looking for a... screw, DEC P/N 12-32249-01. Of course my DEC 3000 can live without a screw, however some are still around I suppose, perhaps in unusable remains heading for the scrapper, so why not save one and have my box fully fixed instead? This is not an ordinary one of course, being a 6-32 x 5/8" (or maybe 9/16") Phillips dome head rib neck carriage screw, used as an insert for captive thumb fasteners in DEC 3000 AXP model 400/600/700 boxes, 5 per enclosure. I've put photos of the broken part for a reference here: . They must have been purpose made. The screw and the front bezel have suffered in transit as a result of inadequate packaging, obviously from the parcel having been dropped. The bezel might be recoverable with some glue and I'll try to get it together over the weekend, now that I've decided this box a go; the screw is obviously beyond repair however. These mechanical parts seem tougher to get then the electronics -- I guess they are thrown away first and/or nobody even bothers offering them, expecting no interest. Maciej From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 14:56:21 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:56:21 -0400 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 2:10 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > Nice! > Marc > > I have my Rolm 1603 working. No peripherals hooked to it, but you can > toggle in stuff from the front panel. > http://dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/rolm1603_f.jpg > > Bob > > > I have a sales / tech details guide 1970 Rolm 1601 "ReggedNova" base system, option cards, instructions, etc. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 14:56:53 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:56:53 -0400 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > > >> I have a sales / tech details guide 1970 Rolm 1601 "ReggedNova" base > system, option cards, instructions, etc. > -- > > > > Sorry I mean "RuggedNova" From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 15:02:20 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:02:20 -0600 (MDT) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > Does he get any mechanical parts as well by any chance? I'll ask, Mighty Maciej. I have a couple of other vendors, too (partners with my $job). I'll forward your message to them. They are guys with service companies who fix the Alphas and IBM Power machines our clients use. They have so much stuff in their warehouses, it wouldn't surprise me if they had what you need. They mostly buy in bulk at auctions. I work with them all the time, so who knows, maybe they will help. I'll send you an email with any details they give me. -Swift From spc at conman.org Wed Apr 27 15:13:07 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 16:13:07 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > On 26 April 2016 at 16:41, Liam Proven wrote: > > When I was playing with home micros (mainly Sinclair and Amstrad; the > American stuff was just too expensive for Brits in the early-to-mid > 1980s), the culture was that Real Men programmed in assembler and the > main battle was Z80 versus 6502, with a few weirdos saying that 6809 > was better than either. BASIC was the language for beginners, and a > few weirdos maintained that Forth was better. The 6908 *is* better than either the Z80 or the 6502 (yes, I'm one of *those* 8-) > So now, it's Unix except for the single remaining mainstream > proprietary system: Windows. Unix today means Linux, while the > weirdoes use FreeBSD. Everything else seems to be more or less a > rounding error. There are still VxWorks and QNX in embedded systems (I think both are now flying through space on various probes) so it's not quite a monoculture. But yes, the desktop does have severe moncultures. > C always was like carrying water in a sieve, so now, we have multiple > C derivatives, trying to patch the holes. Citation needed. C derivatives? The only one I'm aware of is C++ and that's a far way from C nowadays (and no, using curly braces does not make something a C derivative). > C++ has grown up but it's > like Ada now: so huge that nobody understands it all, but actually, a > fairly usable tool. > > There's the kinda-sorta FOSS "safe C++ in a VM", Java. The proprietary > kinda-sorta "safe C++ in a VM", C#. There's the not-remotely-safe > kinda-sorta C in a web browser, Javascript. They may be implemented in C, but they're all a far cry from C (unless youmean they're imperative languages, then yes, they're "like" C in that reguard). > And dozens of others, of course. Rust is now written in Rust. Go is now written in Go. Same with D. There are modern alternatives to C. And if the community is anything to go by, there is a slowly growing contigent of programmers that would outlaw the use of C (punishable by death). > So they still have C like holes and there are frequent patches and > updates to try to make them able to retain some water for a short > time, while the "cyber criminals" make hundreds of millions. I seriously think outlawing C will not fix the problems, but I think I'm in the minority on that feeling. > Anything else is "uncommercial" or "not viable for real world use". > > Borland totally dropped the ball and lost a nice little earner in > Delphi, but it continues as Free Pascal and so on. > > Apple goes its own way, but has forgotten the truly innovative > projects it had pre-NeXT, such as Dylan. > > There were real projects that were actually used for real work, like > Oberon the OS, written in Oberon the language. Real pioneering work in > UIs, such as Jef Raskin's machines, the original Mac and Canon Cat -- > forgotten. People rhapsodise over the Amiga and forget that the > planned OS, CAOS, to be as radical as the hardware, never made it out > of the lab. Same, on a smaller scale, with the Acorn Archimedes. While the Canon Cat was innovative, perhaps it was too early. We were still in the era of general purpose computers and the idea of an "information appliance" was still in its infancy and perhaps, not an idea people were willing to deal with at the time. Also, how easy was it to get data *out* of the Canon Cat? (now that I think about it---it came with a disk drive, so in theory, possible) You could word process, do some calculations, simple programming ... but no Solitare. As for CAOS, I haven't heard of it (and yes, I did the Amiga thing in the early 90s). What was unique about it? And as much as I loved the Amiga, the GUI API (at least 1.x version) was very tied to the hardware and the OS was very much uniprocessor in design. > Despite that, of course, Lisp never went away. People still use it, > but they keep their heads down and get on with it. > > Much the same applies to Smalltalk. Still there, still in use, still > making real money and doing real work, but forgotten all the same. > > The Lisp Machines and Smalltalk boxes lost the workstation war. Unix > won, and as history is written by the victors, now the alternatives > are forgotten or dismissed as weird kooky toys of no serious merit. > > The senior Apple people didn't understand the essence of what they saw > at PARC: they only saw the chrome. To be fair, *everybody* missed the essence of what they did at PARC; even Alan Kay wasn't of much help ("I meant message passing, *not* objects!" "Then why didn't you say so earlier?" "And Smalltalk was *never* meant to be standardized! It was meant to be replaced with something else every six months!" "Uh, Alan, that's *not* how industry works."). The problem with the Lisp machines (from what I can see) is not that they were bad, but they were too expensive and the cheap Unix workstations overtook them in performance. Had Symbolics and LMI moved their software to commodity hardware they might have survived (in this, Bill Gates was right---it was software, not hardware, where the money was). Smalltalk has other issues. In the 80s, there were not many machines capable of running Smalltalk (I'm not aware of any implementation on micros, serious or not) and by the time workstations where becoming cheap enough, the Smalltalk vendors were charging rediculous amounts of money for Smalltalk. The other issue is the image---how do you "distribute" software written in Smalltalk? Smalltalk is the application is Smalltalk, so you have to buy into the whole ecosystem (perhaps in the 90s---today, probably less so). > They copied the chrome, not the > essence, and now all that *any* of us have is the chrome. We have > GUIs, but on top of the nasty kludgy hacks of C and the like. A > late-'60s skunkware project now runs the world, and the real serious > research efforts to make something better, both before and after, are > forgotten historical footnotes. The essence being (LISP|Smalltalk) all the way from top to bottom? > Modern computers are a vast disappointment to me. We have no thinking > machines. The Fifth Generation, Lisp, all that -- gone. > > What did we get instead? > > Like dinosaurs, the expensive high-end machines of the '70s and '80s > didn't evolve into their successors. They were just replaced. First > little cheapo 8-bits, not real or serious at all, although they were > cheap and people did serious stuff with them because it's all they > could afford. The early 8-bits ran semi-serious OSes such as CP/M, but > when their descendants sold a thousand times more, those descendants > weren't running descendants of that OS -- no, it and its creator died. I beg to differ. MS-DOS *was* CP/M (or rather, CP/M on the 8086). I've studied CP/M and have had to implement a portion of MS-DOS for a one-off project of mine [1] that used the CP/M era system calls of MS-DOS (MS-DOS later got more Unix like system calls, which are actually nicer to use than the CP/M versions). > CP/M evolved into a multiuser multitasking 386 OS that could run > multiple MS-DOS apps on terminals, but it died. > > No, then the cheapo 8-bits thrived in the form of an 8/16-bit hybrid, > the 8086 and 8088, and a cheapo knock-off of CP/M. > > This got a redesign into something grown-up: OS/2. > > Predictably, that died. Because Microsoft and IBM had different goals. Microsoft wanted a 32-bit version initially; IBM did not want to eat into their mini and main frame business and IBM had the clout to push their agenda and thus, OS/2 1.x for the 80286. The partnership soured in 1990, Microsoft went with NT and IBM took over OS/2 but didn't have the marketing clout (or savviness) if Microsoft. > So the hacked-together GUI for DOS got re-invigorated with an > injection of OS/2 code, as Windows 3. That took over the world. > > The rivals - the Amiga, ST, etc? 680x0 chips, lots of flat memory, > whizzy graphics and sound? All dead. The 68k series dies because Motorola could not compete with Intel. Morotola did more than just chips (radios, cell phones) whereas Intel did nothing *but* chips, and with Microsoft pushing computers into every home (a definite goal of Bill Gates, but of course all them running Microsoft software) gave Intel a significant bankroll to make the x86 line performant (and no one really wanted the Intel RISC chips; at least, not to the degree to make continued development profitable). > Then Windows got re-invented with some OS/2 3 ideas and code, and some > from VMS, and we got Windows NT. > > But the marketing men got to it and ruined its security and elegance, > to produce the lipstick-and-high-heels Windows XP. That version, > insecure and flakey with its terrible bodged-in browser, that, of > course, was the one that sold. ?Consistent mediocrity, delivered on a large scale, is much more profitable than anything on a small scale, no matter how efficient it might be.? > Linux got nowhere until it copied the XP model. The days of small > programs, everything's a text file, etc. -- all forgotten. Nope, > lumbering GUI apps, CORBA and RPC and other weird plumbing, huge > complex systems, but it looks and works kinda like Windows and a Mac > now so it looks like them and people use it. COBRA was dead by the mid-90s and had nothing (that I know of) to do with Linux. And the lumbering GUI apps, RPC, etc that you are complaining about is the userland stuff---nothing to do with the Linux kernel (okay, perhaps I'm nitpicking here). > Android looks kinda like iOS and people use it in their billions. > Newton? Forgotten. No, people have Unix in their pocket, only it's a > bloated successor of Unix. > > The efforts to fix and improve Unix -- Plan 9, Inferno -- forgotten. A > proprietary microkernel Unix-like OS for phones -- Blackberry 10, > based on QNX -- not Androidy enough, and bombed. > > We have less and less choice, made from worse parts on worse > foundations -- but it's colourful and shiny and the world loves it. Look at any industry and the pattern repeats. > That makes me despair. > > We have poor-quality tools, built on poorly-designed OSes, running on > poorly-designed chips. Occasionally, fragments of older better ways, > such as functional-programming tools, or Lisp-based development > environments, are layered on top of them, but while they're useful in > their way, they can't fix the real problems underneath. > > Occasionally someone comes along and points this out and shows a > better way -- such as Curtis Yarvin's Urbit. I'm still not convinced Curtis isn't trolling with Urbit. Like Alan Kay, he's not saying anything, expecting us to figure out what he means (and then yell at us for failing to successfully read his mind). -spc (Have dealt with my share of "geniuses" yelling at me for failing to read their mind ... ) [1] https://github.com/spc476/NaNoGenMo-2015 https://github.com/dariusk/NaNoGenMo-2015/issues/184 From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 15:20:14 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:20:14 -0600 (MDT) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > I've been looking for a... screw, DEC P/N 12-32249-01. Of course my > DEC 3000 can live without a screw, however some are still around I > suppose, perhaps in unusable remains heading for the scrapper, so why > not save one and have my box fully fixed instead? Found one. Check your junk mail folder for info from my work email (if it got trapped in spam). Thanks, Swift From spc at conman.org Wed Apr 27 15:24:58 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 16:24:58 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160427185010.CFAB218C127@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160427185010.CFAB218C127@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20160427202458.GF20423@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Noel Chiappa once stated: > > From: Liam Proven > > > There's the not-remotely-safe kinda-sorta C in a web browser, > > Javascript. > > Love the rant, which I mostly agree with (_especially_ that one). A couple of > comments: > > > So they still have C like holes and there are frequent patches and > > updates to try to make them able to retain some water for a short time, > > while the "cyber criminals" make hundreds of millions. > > It's not clear to me that a 'better language' is going to get rid of that, > because there will always be bugs (and the bigger the application, and the > more it gets changed, the more there will be). "Every program has at least one bug and can be shortened by at least one instruction---from which, by induction, one can deduce that every program can be reduced to one instruction which doesn't work." Proof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEFBR14 > The vibe I get from my > knowledge of security is that it takes a secure OS, running on hardware that > enforces security, to really fix the problem. (Google "Roger Schell".) We're getting there---on current Macs, not even root can delete all files anymore. You can still run unsigned programs, but you have to change a setting for that. For now. -spc (Be careful what you wish for) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 27 15:25:12 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > Smalltalk has other issues. In the 80s, there were not many machines > capable of running Smalltalk (I'm not aware of any implementation on micros, > serious or not) Apple Lisa. Don't know whether it ever went to market. From turing at shaw.ca Wed Apr 27 16:07:30 2016 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:07:30 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1884655940.38542208.1461791250398.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca> I've got a set of floppy images of Smalltalk that worked fine on early Macintosh machines - I'm not sure what the oldest one would've been, but I only had Macintosh 512 and Macintosh Plus systems at the time; I seem to recall that it was available as a developer floppy. It had an Apple label. (Note that this is from memory - the floppies are at my home, which is miles from my work...) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 1:25:12 PM Subject: Re: strangest systems I've sent email from On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > Smalltalk has other issues. In the 80s, there were not many machines > capable of running Smalltalk (I'm not aware of any implementation on micros, > serious or not) Apple Lisa. Don't know whether it ever went to market. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 27 12:32:22 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 19:32:22 +0200 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c01d19ffc$aa8b0eb0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Brief replies as I am away for a few days now. I was able to write the LEDs ok and read the nvram. I was also able to do tests on the nvram writing all zeroes all ones sliding zeroes and sliding ones. All tests passes. Now just need to compare my DROM with a known good one Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Maciej W. Rozycki Sent: 27 April 2016 14:47 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I examined the bank 8 configuration register contents using the console. It > contained 0x0136, which suggests the cache is not valid. The base address > register contained 0x4000. Both correct: * 0x4000 << (23 - 5) => 0x100000000 * 0x0136: s8_Check => 0b0 -- ECC/parity disabled s8_ColSel => 0b100 -- row/column bits: 9/9 s8_SubEna => 0b1 -- subbanks enabled s8_Size => 0b1011 -- bankset size: 2MB s8_Valid => 0b0 -- access disabled Clearly the index and the data register are wired as individual subbanks each. > I then went back to the console to check the bank 0 configuration register > which gave me 0x0069, which indicates it is valid. So there is a good chance > I am reading the right things. Indeed; memory controller register addresses are hardwired IIUC, so they're always there. As to the bankset configuration register: * 0x0069: s0_ColSel => 0b001 -- row/column bits: 12/10 or 11/11 s0_SubEna => 0b1 -- subbanks enabled s0_Size => 0b0100 -- bankset size: 64MB s0_Valid => 0b1 -- access enabled I take it it corresponds to your memory module installed. > This I think explains why I get the machine check. While in the console I > changed the bank 8 config register to 0x0137, and then I was able to read > and write to the address of the flashbus index register, but it didn't > change the LEDs when I wrote to the data register, and reading back the data > register gave me a value I didn't write. So there is still something not You won't read LEDs back as it's a write-only location, a plain octal D flip-flop presumably. Is it not a 74F273 that I can see right below the unfortunate NVRAM chip on your photo? That would be it then. Its outputs are rated 20mA each, plenty to drive LEDs without additional circuitry. Have you tried using your C program instead to poke at these LEDs? SRM might be interfering, e.g. accessing NVRAM or maybe LEDs even between your commands, and consequently your data register writes issued with `deposit' may go elsewhere as the index register has been since changed under your feet. While experimenting with C code make sure you synchronise accesses -- insert `asm("mb")' or suchlike (whatever OpenVMS C compiler supports) just after each flashbus index or data register access and read back the index register before accessing the data register to avoid weak ordering effects in the chipsed, just as noted in the system manual. > right, perhaps the other values in the bank 8 config register, because I > don't know what they mean. However the base address seems correct as it's > value is 0x4000 (the raw value in the register), and this equates to > 0x1.000.0000 based on it being bits 19 upwards in the physical address > space. Timings are documented in the chipset datasheet, though this is all cryptic of course as we don't know what the requirements are for flashbus. We could assume though that they're the same for the index and data side and then try to match them to the NVRAM being 70ns. Perhaps you could post them too? > I wonder if the SROM failing to read the DROM means that it does not set up > bank 8? Well, but didn't it poke at LEDs? It also tried to load DROM before loading SRM and PALcode from flash, both of which are on flashbus, so it must have got bank 8 right. If anything it's SRM or PALcode interfering here probably. Maciej From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 16:29:59 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:29:59 -0700 Subject: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's the useless tape controller chip variant, but still worth dumping for reference? On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Apr 27, 2016 10:19 AM, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > > > It is most certainly PLS > > > > Interesting. Then we should definitely try reading it and if we can we > should be able to turn the fuse map back into the logic equations. A PLS173 > is a fairly straightforward device. > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 16:33:53 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:33:53 -0600 Subject: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201604271553.LAA18867@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160427170225.GC20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: > > >> What IS known as FidoNet (1:138/142 here. :) ) and it's still a political > shit-show, mostly due to people from Zone 2. *sigh* > > Why, hello, 1:138/142! 1:305/1 here! From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 16:36:29 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:36:29 -0700 Subject: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > It's the useless tape controller chip variant, but still worth dumping for > reference? > I wouldn't say a SCSI tape controller is useless, always fun for installing software from tape just for the heck of it. But that's beside the point for now. Anyway, yes it would be still worth dumping the CDU-710/T CSR decode PAL fuse map just for reference and to confirm that are earlier attempts are reverse engineering it were correct, and use that as the starting point for a 710/M or 710/TM PAL in the absence of one of those to also dump. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 27 16:58:24 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:58:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from Message-ID: <20160427215824.2CDD518C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > while Unix is reasonably secure, application writers have managed to > create massive numbers of security holes that have nothing to do with > defects of the OS, and aren't cured by a better OS. On a secure system (i.e. OS plus underlying hardware), _nothing_ an application does (whether merely buggy, or guidely malevolent) can i) write data it's not supposed to have write access to, ii) read such data, iii) interfere with any another application, etc, etc. Google '"Roger Schell" oral history', and read that, and the other documents he mentions there. (By itself, it's a very entertaining and educational read, even if you ignore the others. It contains an interesting discssion on his contributions to the security mechanisms of the x86 - which I expect Intel will someday ditch, because nobody is using them - just like they apparently ditched segmentation in the latest x86 chips because nobody is using it. Sigh.) Yes, a buggy application won't work right, and may crash, but there's no way to prevent that (although better languages, and programming style, can help a lot). Noel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Apr 27 17:14:47 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:14:47 -0400 Subject: Abstraction levels and tool evolution, versus bugs - Re: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160427185010.CFAB218C127@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160427185010.CFAB218C127@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2016-04-27 2:50 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Liam Proven > > > There's the not-remotely-safe kinda-sorta C in a web browser, > > Javascript. > > Love the rant, which I mostly agree with (_especially_ that one). A couple of > comments: > > > So they still have C like holes and there are frequent patches and > > updates to try to make them able to retain some water for a short time, > > while the "cyber criminals" make hundreds of millions. > > It's not clear to me that a 'better language' is going to get rid of that, Modern languages can indeed wipe out large classes of bugs (including many of those that lead to vulnerabilities). But *every* advance in abstraction does. I like Professor Benjamin Pierce's way of putting it: "Mechanical checks of simple properties enormously improve software quality." This has been called for, with little traction, for a very long time; one of my favourite calls is by Professor Per Brinch Hansen, recipient of IEEE Computer Pioneer Medal, in 1972: "I expect to see many protection rules in future operating systems...enforced by...type checking at compile time." -- he assuredly did not have C in mind. > because there will always be bugs ... The virulence, level, and number, change. Just think of the change in the nature and frequency of mechanically missed bugs going between: assembler to C; C to Java; Java to Haskell; etc. I'd rather be dealing with only the bugs that get through that sieve, than deal with malloc/free bullshit or buffer overflows in C. Ultimately the goal is to deal with the highest value problems, such as incorrect specifications or assumptions, rather than accidentally getting a stack offset wrong in one obscure instruction. Productivity, security, reliability, correctness all demand that we wipe out as many tiers of bug as we can, with better/more high level tools... imho of course... --Toby > > Noel > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 17:18:00 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:18:00 -0500 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> <571E9EE3.2070607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57213A98.4010601@gmail.com> On 04/26/2016 01:33 PM, Guy Dawson wrote: > I bought a 32016 Cambridge Coprocessor back in the day. It's in my loft. Oh, so it was you! ;-) I'll try and file that away in my brain so I remember it in future... do you happen to remember how much it cost? (And were they advertized for sale somewhere, or did you have to call up Acorn and ask?) cheers Jules From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 17:50:54 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 16:50:54 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Abstraction levels and tool evolution, versus bugs - Re: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427185010.CFAB218C127@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Toby Thain wrote: > Modern languages can indeed wipe out large classes of bugs (including > many of those that lead to vulnerabilities). But *every* advance in > abstraction does. While I follow your thesis here, I would also point out that the reason that a lot of C programmers roll their eyes when folks start talking about abstraction is that generally increases code size and overhead. Those two mandates (get out of my way, but don't let me make mistakes) are tough to achieve at the same time. People want the features they find in scripting languages (no memory management, no hassling with pointers) but they don't want to pay for them. It's a matter of debate among experts as to how much fat abstraction adds, or the value of the abstraction itself but it's the primary reason why many C coders are dubious of too much abstraction. C, in my opinion balances the two in one of the least-ugly ways (not that it's all that glamorous, it just works). Those on the "maximum abstraction" bus have already arrived at their stop in C++ land or have moved on to RubyTown etc... (not slamming them, just saying - I do C++ too). I stick with C because I don't want (much) more abstraction than it offers for the applications I write or maintain. > I like Professor Benjamin Pierce's way of putting it: "Mechanical checks > of simple properties enormously improve software quality." Well, I definitely agree with this in general. The question again is how much are you willing to spend to get them done? There is always the guy who will say "Oh gawd we have 6Ghz machines with 4TB of RAM now. Who cares." That will always be followed by the person who says "Wait, I still do embedded code on a Z80 with 4k of RAM!" One thing that I'd point out about C is that once you learn it, you can do both (some would say poorly, but not me). > The virulence, level, and number, change. Just think of the change in > the nature and frequency of mechanically missed bugs going between: > assembler to C; C to Java; Java to Haskell; etc. True. However, when I look at http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/ and other such comparisons, and compare those languages doing real work I can see what the cost is to do so. Maybe some would assert that all this safety can come for free. My response to that would be "Excellent. Please write us all a new compiler, then." For the record, I do know about things like gcc-ssp, propolice, stackguard, etc.. I've used most of those where needed. > I'd rather be dealing with only the bugs that get through that sieve, > than deal with malloc/free bullshit or buffer overflows in C. I write quite a bit of C. I don't claim for a second to be "good" ('cause I've met people who are *really* good). In my experience there are several things that you can bring to bear which will result in you hardly every chasing pointers or malloc() issues. Here's what I do to help myself (BTW, I'm sure you are all better coders. I'm just sharing my experience): 1. Early on I wrote myself a reference counter. There are all kinds of easy ways to do this. Then you can catch yourself when you use a null reference or let a loop run off the edge of a cliff. Once you feel comfy, remove the #include'd wrappers. I've done the same thing using LD_PRELOAD mechanisms to preempt things like malloc(). 2. When in doubt I've used tools like ElectricFence and Valgrind to also aid greatly in finding problems that might lead to buffer overflows or string format exploits. I also use tools like "rats" to hunt down bugs. 3. I started getting burned enough that I simply figured out what kind of design patterns I was using that got me into trouble. Once I applied myself to stopping that behavior, the issues I was having with memory shell games basically went away. 4. Kind of along with the philosophy you are talking about (perhaps) I do check the livin' snot out of everything I get back from non-deterministic operations. Some of these are just using my knowledge of the code's actual logic path to do the checks at the *exact* spot they are needed without some compiler trying to out-guess me or check absolutely everything. YMMV, but that's how I live with my dirty C programming self. :-) > Productivity, security, reliability, correctness all demand that we wipe > out as many tiers of bug as we can, with better/more high level tools... > imho of course... That's what I hear from folks who love Haskell and Erlang. As I'm sure you know, those languages have some really interesting properties similar to the kind of philosophy. You guys are going to be the type of people who move the whole industry forward as you push innovative (or maybe old & innovative) ideas. Guys like me just try to get the code done as fast as possible before our jobs get offshored to India. :-/ -Swift From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 27 19:05:55 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 01:05:55 +0100 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <572153E3.9070406@dunnington.plus.com> On 27/04/2016 21:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: >> Smalltalk has other issues. In the 80s, there were not many machines >> capable of running Smalltalk (I'm not aware of any implementation on >> micros, >> serious or not) > > Apple Lisa. Don't know whether it ever went to market. And Acorn Archimedes, c.1987. In fact it was amongst the first software available for the machine, and I should still have a set of install floppies "somewhere". -- Pete Pete Turnbull From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 27 19:11:16 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:11:16 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160427215824.2CDD518C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160427215824.2CDD518C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <74F18C7A-C32E-4D5F-89B4-E87E8C9F3D4C@comcast.net> > On Apr 27, 2016, at 5:58 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> while Unix is reasonably secure, application writers have managed to >> create massive numbers of security holes that have nothing to do with >> defects of the OS, and aren't cured by a better OS. > > On a secure system (i.e. OS plus underlying hardware), _nothing_ an > application does (whether merely buggy, or guidely malevolent) can i) write > data it's not supposed to have write access to, ii) read such data, iii) > interfere with any another application, etc, etc. Sure, all that is obvious. But the problem is that some attacks require only the application and the data it IS supposed to have access to -- just get the application to do the wrong thing to the right data. That kind of malfunction can only be cured by writing correct applications. For example, it isn't much consolation if your banking app writes only to the correct bank accounts database, if it sends your money to the wrong account for the wrong reason. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 27 19:14:34 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:14:34 -0400 Subject: Abstraction levels and tool evolution, versus bugs - Re: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427185010.CFAB218C127@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9018929D-0C3D-4CDB-91E0-4A73BA2AD035@comcast.net> > On Apr 27, 2016, at 6:14 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > Modern languages can indeed wipe out large classes of bugs (including many of those that lead to vulnerabilities). But *every* advance in abstraction does. > > I like Professor Benjamin Pierce's way of putting it: "Mechanical checks of simple properties enormously improve software quality." > > This has been called for, with little traction, for a very long time; one of my favourite calls is by Professor Per Brinch Hansen, recipient of IEEE Computer Pioneer Medal, in 1972: > > "I expect to see many protection rules in future operating systems...enforced by...type checking at compile time." > -- he assuredly did not have C in mind. Probably not Ada either, but among languages that are in current use that one is probably the best by this measure. BTW, it's not so much "modern" as "well designed". How to design languages that facilitate correct programs was well understood by around 1970. There have been some additions since then, but a lot of the right answers can be found in ALGOL (and a lot of wrong answers can be found in the work of those who ignored ALGOL). paul From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 27 19:40:06 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201604271553.LAA18867@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160427170225.GC20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, John Willis wrote: >> >> >>> What IS known as FidoNet (1:138/142 here. :) ) and it's still a political >> shit-show, mostly due to people from Zone 2. *sigh* >> >> > Why, hello, 1:138/142! 1:305/1 here! > #fidobros! *laughs uproariously* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Apr 27 20:09:00 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:09:00 -0500 Subject: Digital (Was RE: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX) In-Reply-To: References: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <572162AC.2030303@pico-systems.com> On 04/27/2016 01:07 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> >> I actually wonder if an FPGA VAX chip could be made that >> would run faster than existing real VAXEN. Sure. A VAX 11/780 had a 5 MHz clock! Would be hard for an emulator to NOT beat that! Later models did run faster, but not vastly faster, due to the technology of the time. Jon From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 21:34:12 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:34:12 -0600 Subject: Digital (Was RE: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX) In-Reply-To: <572162AC.2030303@pico-systems.com> References: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> <572162AC.2030303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 7:09 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Sure. A VAX 11/780 had a 5 MHz clock! Would be hard for an emulator to NOT > beat that! Later models did run faster, but not vastly faster, due to the > technology of the time. I'm not sure what would qualify as "vastly faster", but I take it that 170.9 MHz doesn't? (also required fewer clocks per instruction than the 11/780) A well-tuned VAX design in a recent FPGA family (Xilinx 7-series or newer, or Altera Stratix V or newer) might be able to outperform the fastest "real" VAX, but perhaps not by a whole lot. FPGAs are generally much more efficient at implementing RISC processors, but it's difficult to get a whole lot more than 200 MHz for the cost-optimized FPGAs, or 350 MHz for the (expensive) performance-optimized FPGAs. I've designed VHDL cores equivalent to microprocessors such as the RCA 1802, National Semiconductor PACE, and DEC/Western Digital LSI-11 (at the microarchitecture level). I'd like to tackle something more sophisticated, but it's hard to find enough time. From useddec at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 21:36:54 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 21:36:54 -0500 Subject: REMEX paper tape interfaces Message-ID: A few list members wanted me to hold on to some boards until they were ready for them. While looking for then, among hundreds of other non DEC boards, I came across the following REMEX boards. As far as I can tell they are for 8s. Please contact me off list if you are interested. REMEX 109381, one is a reader only,should be an easy upgrade reader/punch 109883 114143 / 114141 Thanks, Paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Apr 27 21:42:21 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 02:42:21 +0000 Subject: It has been quiet. Message-ID: Has the list gone down or just dropped me again? From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 27 22:00:30 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:00:30 -0500 Subject: It has been quiet. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000901d1a0fa$1ff43020$5fdc9060$@classiccmp.org> Lots of list traffic.... definitely not down. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Apr 27 22:10:27 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:10:27 -0500 Subject: Digital (Was RE: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX) In-Reply-To: References: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> <572162AC.2030303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <57217F23.9080802@pico-systems.com> On 04/27/2016 09:34 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 7:09 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> Sure. A VAX 11/780 had a 5 MHz clock! Would be hard for an emulator to NOT >> beat that! Later models did run faster, but not vastly faster, due to the >> technology of the time. > I'm not sure what would qualify as "vastly faster", but I take it that > 170.9 MHz doesn't? > (also required fewer clocks per instruction than the 11/780) Well, running an efficient simulator on a modern PC processor with a 3+ GHz clock, with faster memory and larger and faster cache, I think it would still beat that top/end of the line VAX. But, I don't actually know for sure. > > A well-tuned VAX design in a recent FPGA family (Xilinx 7-series or > newer, or Altera Stratix V or newer) might be able to outperform the > fastest "real" VAX, but perhaps not by a whole lot. FPGAs are > generally much more efficient at implementing RISC processors, but > it's difficult to get a whole lot more than 200 MHz for the > cost-optimized FPGAs, or 350 MHz for the (expensive) > performance-optimized FPGAs. > > I've designed VHDL cores equivalent to microprocessors such as the RCA > 1802, National Semiconductor PACE, and DEC/Western Digital LSI-11 (at > the microarchitecture level). I'd like to tackle something more > sophisticated, but it's hard to find enough time. > Wow, yeah, designing a hardware emulator on an FPGA for the VAX would be a big project. Doing the same for the Alpha architecture would be REALLY daunting, since a lot less was done by microcode. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 27 22:23:27 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:23:27 -0700 Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston In-Reply-To: <002501d1a088$74c24460$5e46cd20$@classiccmp.org> References: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> <002501d1a088$74c24460$5e46cd20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <98b2c7a1-8b60-096d-b945-2a1acc1bfed9@bitsavers.org> On 4/27/16 6:26 AM, Jay West wrote: > Yes, I got the same email a few minutes ago. Very sad. I just had an email > from him a couple weeks ago, I was preparing to send him some manuals for > the museum. > > This is horrible news. The last project we worked on was my recovery of a bunch of HP3000 tapes from him a few years ago. From jecel at merlintec.com Wed Apr 27 22:28:25 2016 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 00:28:25 -0300 Subject: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20160428032850.9911DAB3CE7FC@bart0113.email.locaweb.com.br> Sean Conner wrote:on Wed, 27 Apr 2016 16:13:07 -0400 > The 6908 *is* better than either the Z80 or the 6502 (yes, I'm one of > *those* 8-) To be fair, the Z80 and 6502 had to compete against the 8080 while the 6809 came out after the 8086 and 68000. > Citation needed. C derivatives? The only one I'm aware of is C++ and > that's a far way from C nowadays (and no, using curly braces does not make > something a C derivative). Objective-C was the only other C derivative to have a significant impact. CTalk and a bunch of others were mere historical curiosities. > While the Canon Cat was innovative, perhaps it was too early. We were > still in the era of general purpose computers and the idea of an > "information appliance" was still in its infancy and perhaps, not an idea > people were willing to deal with at the time. Also, how easy was it to get > data *out* of the Canon Cat? (now that I think about it---it came with a > disk drive, so in theory, possible) You could word process, do some > calculations, simple programming ... but no Solitare. The Cat could execute any Forth code embeded in your text document, so it could have had a Solitaire. It was extremely well received by its intended users: secretaries. It was killed off to stop a dispute between the chiefs of the computer and typewriter divisions of Canon and not due to any commercial reasons. > To be fair, *everybody* missed the essence of what they did at PARC; even > Alan Kay wasn't of much help ("I meant message passing, *not* objects!" > "Then why didn't you say so earlier?" "And Smalltalk was *never* meant to be > standardized! It was meant to be replaced with something else every six > months!" "Uh, Alan, that's *not* how industry works."). You are paraphrasing the "burn the disk packs" discussion at a Learning Research Group retreat. Alan Kay wanted to throw everything away and create a new end user programming system. Dan Ingalls wanted to clean up Smalltalk-74 even if it became harder for children to use it and then implement a system for children on top of that (see Scratch and Etoys). Alan let Dan do it his way (Smalltalk-76), and even supported the attempt go from research to development in the Notetaker project (Smalltalk-78) even though that is not his thing. When an executive from Xerox headquarters flew in just to kill the Notetaker ("Xerox doesn't do microcomputers", he said) Alan left for Atari and the rest of the group decided to create Smalltalk-80 as a software-only product to run on other company's machines. I would say that at the time Smalltalk-80 was the most standard language out there along with UCSD Pascal and with its set of books it was the best documented one. > The problem with the Lisp machines (from what I can see) is not that they > were bad, but they were too expensive and the cheap Unix workstations > overtook them in performance. Had Symbolics and LMI moved their software to > commodity hardware they might have survived (in this, Bill Gates was > right---it was software, not hardware, where the money was). Symbolics moved all its stuff to the Alpha processor, but that was the wrong choice. Note that there were software-only Lisps for workstations like Franz Lisp. Some people, when they hear that I develop Smalltalk computers, like to inform me that there used to be Lisp machines but they failed (for some reason they seem to think I wouldn't know that). Their conclusion is that language specific computers are a bad idea. My reply is that all the generic computers except two (PC and 360) have also died, and one of the survivors is such a tiny niche. > Smalltalk has other issues. In the 80s, there were not many machines > capable of running Smalltalk (I'm not aware of any implementation on micros, > serious or not) and by the time workstations where becoming cheap enough, > the Smalltalk vendors were charging rediculous amounts of money for > Smalltalk. As others have pointed out, Apple sold Smalltalk-80 for the Mac. Unfortunately you had to be a registered developer to be able to buy it. A reduced version could run on a Mac 512 but for the full thing you needed at least 1MB. As Smalltalk-80 accessed the hardware directly, it couldn't deal with ADB keyboards (but the mouse worked for some reason). Digitalk came out with Methods for the PC (with at least 512KB) in 1985 and Smalltalk V in 1986. It soon had a Smalltalk V/Mac (which is why Apple stopped selling their own Smalltalk and didn't updated it for newer Macs), Smalltalk V/286 (for a long while the only language to be able to used more than 640KB on a PC) and eventually Smalltalk V/Win. ParcPlace was spun off from Xerox in 1988 and focused on workstations with extremely expensive products (which continues to this day - see Cincom). By the early 1990s there were some more nice Smalltalks for PCs (Object Studio, Dolphin, Smalltalk MT) and Macs (SmalltalkAgents). > The other issue is the image---how do you "distribute" software > written in Smalltalk? Smalltalk is the application is Smalltalk, so you > have to buy into the whole ecosystem (perhaps in the 90s---today, probably > less so). This certainly wasn't the case for Smalltalk V/Win, but other Smalltalks had solutions for "stripping" and image. Alan Kay makes an interesting comment about Lisp on page 524 (page 15 of the PDF) of "An Early History of Smalltalk": http://www.vpri.org/pdf/hc_smalltalk_history.pdf He had learned Lisp at Utah, but nobody there used it except for teaching so he only learned about CAR, CDR, CONS etc. Only when he spent some time at SAIL (Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory) did he finally get the idea of Lisp and what EVAL and APPLY were all about. I would not be surprised if many students who had Lisp in school and hated it never really got it like Alan hadn't. -- Jecel From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 22:40:14 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:40:14 -0500 Subject: It has been quiet. In-Reply-To: <000901d1a0fa$1ff43020$5fdc9060$@classiccmp.org> References: <000901d1a0fa$1ff43020$5fdc9060$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: indeed lots of talk On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:00 PM, Jay West wrote: > Lots of list traffic.... definitely not down. > > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 22:40:25 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:40:25 -0500 Subject: It has been quiet. In-Reply-To: <000901d1a0fa$1ff43020$5fdc9060$@classiccmp.org> References: <000901d1a0fa$1ff43020$5fdc9060$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Aye, plenty of blather... err.. volume here, as well. ;-) On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:00 PM, Jay West wrote: > Lots of list traffic.... definitely not down. > > > From rwiker at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 23:43:37 2016 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 06:43:37 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <86078B75-80F9-47A0-97A5-8DBED8055A88@gmail.com> > On 27 Apr 2016, at 22:13 , Sean Conner wrote: > > COBRA was dead by the mid-90s and had nothing (that I know of) to do with > Linux. And the lumbering GUI apps, RPC, etc that you are complaining about > is the userland stuff---nothing to do with the Linux kernel (okay, perhaps > I'm nitpicking here). Who uses Linux to refer to just the kernel these days? GNOME used (uses?) CORBA - I assume this is what Liam meant. CORBA was standardised in 1997, and had significant momentum up to at least 2000. I'm very happy that there is no chance that anybody will ever be in a position to ask me to work with CORBA again. From erik at baigar.de Thu Apr 28 00:12:11 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 07:12:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I have my Rolm 1603 working. No peripherals hooked to it, but you can toggle > in stuff from the front panel. > http://dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/rolm1603_f.jpg Very cool, Bob - we have been in touch seom years ago and great, that your machine is still alive! Many thanks for the picture and two questions out of curiosity: (1) The panel is mounted on the rear side (where memory is) of the processor. Is it wired and powered internally or do you have to connect the panel to the plugs of the processor externally? (2) The 1603 uses the same 5605 processor "sandwich" also used by the 1602B and not the 9PCBs of the earlier 1602s? Keep up taking care of your Rolm, its a very nice and rare machine... Erik. From erik at baigar.de Thu Apr 28 00:15:42 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 07:15:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Caron wrote: > I don't have any ROLM computers (not that I wouldn't love one) but I am proud > to say that I have a complete ROLM SCBX 8000. I've tried to take some > pictures and compile some information on my personal site: > > http://wildflower.diablonet.net/~scaron/rolmfieldguide/index.html Wow, that is a lot of PCBs to handle the telephone stuff! Thanks for sharing the pictures - also interesting to see, that they used a Z80 in there but never used microprocessors in their MIL computers (even the later ones!)... As a project you could design a VoIP PCB for the SCBX ;-) Erik. From erik at baigar.de Thu Apr 28 00:20:39 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 07:20:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 2:10 PM, Curious Marc > I have a sales / tech details guide 1970 Rolm 1601 "ReggedNova" base > system, option cards, instructions, etc. Hi Marc, do you have got this in digital form? It would be interesting to see the difference between 1601 and the later ones. I can offer scanning so we can upload it for anyone who is interested. Probably Ray (who is in Salisbury) may too be interested as he has got some 1601 IO cards... Erik. From erik at baigar.de Thu Apr 28 00:33:15 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 07:33:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek (Vulcan Avionics) In-Reply-To: <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> References: <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2053554102.1760835.1461642414621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <571F9A4B.9010802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Jon Elson wrote: > ....the complete electronics suite from a Vulcan > bomber! > > > The Rochester Avionics Archives are digitizing company videos from what is now BAE Systems. There is a nice video showing how the navigation "computer" of the Vulcans "payload", Blue Steel is assembled and this video also gives a short outline of its interaction with the Vulcan's system shown in the picture above: http://rochesteravionicarchives.co.uk/media-archive/film/elliott-inertial-navigation-system-for-blue-steel Erik. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Apr 28 01:04:50 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 02:04:50 -0400 Subject: It has been quiet. Message-ID: <3e4747.6ee0e13b.44530202@aol.com> nope it is working In a message dated 4/27/2016 10:48:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, dkelvey at hotmail.com writes: Has the list gone down or just dropped me again? From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 28 01:52:22 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 08:52:22 +0200 Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston In-Reply-To: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> References: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20160428065222.GA20677@Update.UU.SE> That is sad news :( I've had good use of his work. /Pontus. On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 11:48:46AM +0200, Rik Bos wrote: > This morning I got the sad message of the passing of Jon Johnston the > curator of the HP Museum website www.hpmusem.net. > > More info at : > -in-tibet-during-a-trek-in-the-himalayas/news-story/501c804577a833b0964016ba > e87fd318> > http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/father-of-three-jon-johnston-died- > in-tibet-during-a-trek-in-the-himalayas/news-story/501c804577a833b0964016bae > 87fd318 > > > > Jon, was a fellow collector and HP enthusiast and will be missed. > > Jon himself and his site were a help and source of knowledge for everyone > who was interested in HP computing history. > > > > -Rik > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 02:16:58 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 04:16:58 -0300 Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston In-Reply-To: <20160428065222.GA20677@Update.UU.SE> References: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> <20160428065222.GA20677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: And hpmuseum seems to be offline right now :( 2016-04-28 3:52 GMT-03:00 Pontus Pihlgren : > That is sad news :( > > I've had good use of his work. > > /Pontus. > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 11:48:46AM +0200, Rik Bos wrote: > > This morning I got the sad message of the passing of Jon Johnston the > > curator of the HP Museum website www.hpmusem.net. > > > > More info at : > > < > http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/father-of-three-jon-johnston-died > > > -in-tibet-during-a-trek-in-the-himalayas/news-story/501c804577a833b0964016ba > > e87fd318> > > > http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/father-of-three-jon-johnston-died- > > > in-tibet-during-a-trek-in-the-himalayas/news-story/501c804577a833b0964016bae > > 87fd318 > > > > > > > > Jon, was a fellow collector and HP enthusiast and will be missed. > > > > Jon himself and his site were a help and source of knowledge for everyone > > who was interested in HP computing history. > > > > > > > > -Rik > > > From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 02:24:41 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 09:24:41 +0200 Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston In-Reply-To: References: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> <20160428065222.GA20677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 28 April 2016 at 09:16, Alexandre Souza wrote: > And hpmuseum seems to be offline right now :( It's online, but you may have tried the link in Rik's post, which has a typo. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 02:58:05 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 04:58:05 -0300 Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston In-Reply-To: References: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> <20160428065222.GA20677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Ops...Sorry :( 2016-04-28 4:24 GMT-03:00 Tor Arntsen : > On 28 April 2016 at 09:16, Alexandre Souza > wrote: > > And hpmuseum seems to be offline right now :( > > It's online, but you may have tried the link in Rik's post, which has a > typo. > From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Apr 28 03:02:43 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:02:43 +0200 Subject: Digital VAX, Alpha (Was RE: Mac "Workgroup Server" ... In-Reply-To: <71C35AD2-6D4F-43E4-A8D6-F488B8A85BC3@comcast.net> References: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> <6473CF88-D079-44D1-B9AE-7B6D9E8BF286@comcast.net> <20160427150706.9hi6zf5sx0cg000c@webmail.opentransfer.com> <71C35AD2-6D4F-43E4-A8D6-F488B8A85BC3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20160428100243.kpr523d9s8cco4kc@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von Paul Koning : > >> On Apr 27, 2016, at 9:07 AM, emu at e-bbes.com wrote: >> If "accurate" means to run VMS or Unix, it shouldn't be to difficult. > > You might be surprised. Probably not. I have both working here as Software emulations ;-) > Getting a PDP-11 FPGA to be accurate enough to run standard > operating systems is hard enough (as I found out helping Sytze's > "pdp2011" project). And that's a much simpler CPU than VAX. In > particular, the privileged architecture tends to be critical for > getting an OS to boot, and that part tends to be poorly documented > (as well as variable from one CPU model to the next). Funny as it Sound, the VAX was easier, but all the Floating Point formats took a while to implement ... > I don't know. Fun is certainly a good reason for many of us. Yup, that's how it started ;-) > I don't know if there are any unexpired patents; if not, then > implementing a machine from the published documentation seems fine, > though running the software might require answering some licensing > questions. That's the real pain in the neck, to Transfer licenses from one machine to the next ... Cheers From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Apr 28 03:15:29 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:15:29 +0200 Subject: Digital VAX, Alpha (Was RE: Mac "Workgroup Server" ... In-Reply-To: References: <016f01d1a059$1d52e380$57f8aa80$@gmail.com> <6473CF88-D079-44D1-B9AE-7B6D9E8BF286@comcast.net> <20160427150706.9hi6zf5sx0cg000c@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <20160428101529.aabqowao6scwgso8@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von Swift Griggs : > 3. I know for a fact the US government and a few other folks are pretty > well stuck with using Alphas for "certain" things. If the vendor was > OK'd by the gubment, there might be some money to be made there, too. But they don't Need an FPGA, for them Software Emulation of an Alpha is sufficient ... > 4. If some guy in Poland (Lotharek) was able to make an FPGA box that > emulates more than 9 different platforms (albeit probably simpler ones) > for under $200, ... just for clarification, Lotharek is a reseller not the developer of it. About the development of it, ("MIST") you can read at https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki cheers From alberto at retrocomputing.eu Thu Apr 28 04:45:15 2016 From: alberto at retrocomputing.eu (Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione Museo del Computer) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 11:45:15 +0200 Subject: Unknown transistor repairing a TI990/5 power supply Message-ID: <263B19912A084762A1FE4B881C374E97@dellgx270> I'm working at the power supply of a 990/5 minicomputer. The chassis is a 6 slot version, with 20A power supply. After a few minutes of working, the fuse blow and I found a transistor on the main power supply board with collector in short circuit with emitter. The transistor has TRW logo and is market with Texas part number 996070-003, in addiction with the date code. Pictures of the transistor here : http://www.museodelcomputer.org/parts/texas/990_5/IMG_6442_transistor.JPG http://www.museodelcomputer.org/parts/texas/990_5/IMG_6445_sotto.JPG Google give me only a link, were it seem to be an Optek SVT6747 ... another unknown transistor :( Someone has experience with this power supply ? http://www.museodelcomputer.org/parts/texas/990_5/IMG_6423.JPG Texas part number is 944970-0001 Thanks for any help ! Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli A2 SISTEMI ELETTRONICA, INFORMATICA, NETWORKING Via per Occhieppo, 29 Tel 015 8853203 13891 CAMBURZANO (BI) - ITALY Fax 015 8853202 Mobile +39 335 6026632 Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it Web : www.a2sistemi.it FONDAZIONE MUSEO DEL COMPUTER ONLUS http://www.museodelcomputer.org Mail:info.museodelcomputer.org Tel 015 8853201 Fax 015 8853202 ------------------------------------------------------ Le telefonate con numero nascosto sono filtrate Calls with no caller identifier are filtered ------------------------------------------------------ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 28 05:49:10 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 06:49:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: It has been quiet. Message-ID: <20160428104910.CA65018C12F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dwight Kelvey > Has the list gone down or just dropped me again? Consulting the list archive via the Web: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ is a good way to see if things are moving. Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 28 07:19:43 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:19:43 +0100 Subject: Calling all typographers Message-ID: Hi Guys DEC did some interesting things when it came to fonts on front panels. Take an 8/e front panel for example. the address is kind of a chalet font. But they built it out of circles and straight lines and that's what I do. Then they bunch up the characters until they touch or nearly touch. (kerning?) I'd like to recover the DEC fonts and have looked at several font creator/editors. Frankly they are dung. Every fancy curve there is but not a straight forward line and circle method of creating lower case characters as DEC did it. I do need the ability to enter (or import) the lower case characters using just circles and lines. I then need to do the usual font type things like different font sizes, bold, and character spacing from zero (touching) to miles apart. Suggestions please Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 08:01:21 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:01:21 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <1392455335.2673389.1461779065645.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1392455335.2673389.1461779065645.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1392455335.2673389.1461779065645.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 27 April 2016 at 19:44, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > On Wed, 4/27/16, Liam Proven wrote: >> ... with a few weirdos saying that 6809 was better than >> ... and a few weirdos maintained that Forth was better. >> ... while the weirdoes use FreeBSD. > > I've never been more proud to be classified as a weirdo :) Oh, well, good! I am glad to hear that, because it suggests that my deliberate theme -- of people choosing obscure systems, not even the 2nd or 3rd choice but the ones out past that -- got benefits from their choices and they were happy with them. The idea of the 'weirdo' label is that that's what the mainstream types see them as, because the mainstream types don't understand the benefits or can't believe that they're even there. >> The efforts to fix and improve Unix -- Plan 9, Inferno -- forgotten. > > Plan 9 and Inferno are still around. There are quite a few of > us who still use them on a regular basis. In fact, the Plan 9 > updates for the new Pi 3 should be out very soon, and I have > a student currently working on a port of Plan 9 to the Allwinner > A20 found in the Banana Pi and several of the low-end tablets. Oh, yes, indeed! I have a Plan 9 VM, and I intend to try it on my Pi. But it's had relatively little impact on mainstream Unix. The peak development period of actual UNIX? seems to have ended in the late 1980s, i.e. decades ago -- up to System V, then SVR 3, SVR 4, then it seemed to sort of peter out. SVR4.2 was the last widely-adopted version, AFAIK. SVR5 didn't go anywhere much; I don't think it even made it into AIX. Wikipedia suggests that SVR6 was never even released. I blame SCO for that. >> That makes me despair. > > I feel much the same way, but it leads me to a little different place. > While I'll probably never be there entirely, I am now at a point where > I am giving serious thought to only running software I write myself. > For example, the file system I run on my home file server (a Plan 9 > box) is something I wrote myself. The version of Scheme I use on > Inferno is one I wrote, etc. The truth is if you're willing to be one > of the weirdos, there are still some pretty interesting places to be > in the computing world. There are still interesting languages both > old and new to learn. (I had a blast last summer working with MCPL, > an experimental offshoot of BCPL, and the ENIAC simulator I'm > developing is written in Go.) I find life to be much more enjoyable > and my blood pressure to be much lower as long as I steer away > from anything that's mainstream or popular. That's great to hear. Sadly, I fear I'm not hardcore enough. I can barely code and haven't really done so since the late 1980s. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 28 08:21:53 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 08:21:53 -0500 Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston In-Reply-To: <98b2c7a1-8b60-096d-b945-2a1acc1bfed9@bitsavers.org> References: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> <002501d1a088$74c24460$5e46cd20$@classiccmp.org> <98b2c7a1-8b60-096d-b945-2a1acc1bfed9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000c01d1a150$ee4b1a50$cae14ef0$@classiccmp.org> Al wrote... ---- This is horrible news. The last project we worked on was my recovery of a bunch of HP3000 tapes from him a few years ago. ---- Yep. The last email I got from him ended with: ---- I will be out of communication from Apr 5 to June 3 (on climbing expedition in Tibet). ---- I got an update from them this morning with the detail that "[the] ground gave way beneath them". So sad. I know that there was a large shipment being gathered from many folks to Teresa in LA which was then going to be shipped to AU around June. Some contact will need to be made regarding that but will wait a bit first. Best, J From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 08:38:35 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:38:35 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 27 April 2016 at 20:15, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Liam Proven wrote: >> I wish to apologise for this. It was unjustified and unfair, and >> unjustly ad-hom as well. > > Well, that's mighty big of you Liam. You're welcome, Swift. I'll try to learn from this. > You are clearly a brilliant guy with > a storied career and bristling with skills I only wish I had. I don't know about that! I'm "only" 48 and my career was always more in the sense of a verb than a noun. ;-) I just have dabbled in a lot more systems and platforms than most. I never specialised. That came back to bite me in the fundament by my 40s. :-( > As I read > through your post here, I also got a lot more grit and understanding of > why folks get as irritated as they do when I associate my bumbling college > profs with something like LISP. It's silly of me to associate a language > with a group of people. It's human, but still not very bright of me. LISP > certainly has a lot of smart people advocating for it. It seems to > represent a lost ideal or paradigm to them and it's I can see it's nasty > of me to step on that, even if that's not my direct design to hurt them. I guess I have picked up some of the esteem it's held in by contact. This essay made the argument originally, I think: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html If you go and survey people with broad comparative knowledge, everyone looks down on some languages and up to others. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VxkltwS9g0 But whereas you can find fans of all sorts of languages who look up to Lisp, Lispers don't look up to anyone. It seems to be the peak. I don't program in anything modern and haven't coded for 25y or so. I don't do Lisp or any FP language. But I've read a lot /about/ Lisp and it seems to be something special and unique. >> My contention is that a large part of the reason that we have the crappy >> computers that we do today [...] is not technical, nor even primarily >> commercial or due to business pressures, but rather, it's cultural. > > I share your lament. > >> the culture was that Real Men programmed in assembler and the main >> battle was Z80 versus 6502, with a few weirdos saying that 6809 was >> better than either. > > One thing that also keeps jumping out at me over and over is how I meet > people with the same kind of experiences you describe and they are often > much more skilled and better critical thinkers than folks I know from my > generation or younger. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of young > shining stars, but they just don't seem to occur with the same frequency. > I have surmised that I am standing on the shoulders of giants going all > the way back to folks like Grace Hopper, and that it's more and more > difficult to grow in this field in the same way as the "old timers" (which > for me is anyone who worked in the industry before 1989, I realize it's > all relative). There seems to be part of that. As ESR said, if one learns Lisp, /even if one never uses it/ it makes one a better programmer. I cannot verify this myself but the excitement of the Java folk getting into Clojure now seems to bear it out to some degree. > All "you guys" seemed to start out with math or EE > background and filling in the CS parts seems to be trivial for you. I look > up to your generation, believe it or not. I was an undergrad biologist. :-) I've never studied CS. But I think you have a point. I've long felt that universities should teach /methods/ not skills. They aren't for vocational training -- that's for polytechnics, colleges and trainee jobs. But that's another thing we've screwed up in recent decades: education. >> The labs had Acorn BBC Micros in -- solid machines, *the* best 8-bit >> BASIC ever, > > I'm a bit sad those never caught on in the states. They are neat machines. NIH syndrome? >> But a new wave was coming. MS-DOS was already huge and the Mac was >> growing strongly. Windows was on v2 and was a toy, but Unix was coming > > For me, as a teen in the 1990s. I associated Unix with scientists, > engineers, and "thinkers" in general. I'd walk into somewhere to fix a > monitor or printer (I was a bench tech for a while) and the Unix guys > wouldn't want me near their stuff. They could fix it themselves and they > didn't want some punk kid who knew MSDOS to touch them. Meanwhile all the > people I didn't respect (PHBs and other business-aligned folks) used beige > boxes running DOS. I knew I was in the wrong place. Yep, me too. I only learned it because it was the best choice for multiuser accountancy systems in the late '80s. That is the one function we sold it for. Some of the boxes replaced Concurrent CP/\M systems with much more primitive DOS-based accountancy apps. >> A new belief started to spread: that if you used C, you could get >> near-assembler performance without the pain, and the code could be >> ported between machines. DOS and Mac apps started to be written (or >> rewritten) in C, and some were even ported to Xenix. > > Wasn't that kind of true, though? I've heard it said "C is nothing more > than a macro assembler". I'm a C programmer as you might expect. I'd > heartily agree. However, being a C programmer I also see C's warts. It's > not big on syntactic sugar, but it does get the job done in a > straightforward and pragmatic way. Ah but that is the exact thing. Yes, it does seem to deliver on that. But there is a very very high price to pay for it, and that's almost never mentioned, never discussed. > I do plenty of OO in other languages, > but I still prefer procedural & structured coding techniques most of the > time (as long as it effectively solves the problems). However, I'd reach > for an OO language or heavily abuse callbacks in C if I needed to do a > simulation. You're clearly a far more advanced programmer than I am, then. I never mastered OO at all. >> [...] Apple merged with NeXT and switched to NeXTstep. > > I still like to show non-coders how all these OSX library calls often > *still* start with "ns" (next step). Yup. Some describe it as a stealth takeover of *Apple* by NeXT. A lot of the Apple tech & methods (and people) were tossed out, replaced by NeXT stuff. >> Now, Windows is evolving to be more and more Unix-like, with GUI-less >> versions, clean(ish) separation between GUI and console apps, a new rich >> programmable shell, and so on. > > It reminds me of the famous statement "Those who do not learn from Unix > are doomed to re-invent it... poorly." Yep, definitely. Henry Spencer, I believe. > Windows 10 inclusion of bash seems > to me to be a white flag on the part of Microsoft saying "You guys were > right." Especially after pushing Powershell so hard. Of course, I'm sure > the devils advocate would say "It's just a greater diversity in a massive > constellation of functionality in Windows" Yup, to both. >> While the Mac is now a Unix box, albeit a weird one. > > A very weird one. Most of my Unix zealot friends use Macs now. I still use > the console :-) If I must, then I'll use fluxbox in X11 on top of NetBSD. Ubuntu laptops, Mac desktop, for me. :) >> Commercial Unix continues to wither away. OpenVMS might make a modest >> comeback. > > Go VMS. I hope VSI can pull it off. I also hope they change their > licensing terms to be less draconian. IMHO, that's what hurt them so badly > in the 90s after Ken Olsen left. They wanted to LMF license every little > bit of Tru64 and VMS. There is the hobbyist program, yes. However, you > don't need to mess with that to download Linux, and that's still an > accessibility gap. Agreed. >> IBM has successfully killed off several efforts to do this for z Series. > > In order to prevent your goose that laid the golden egg from losing her > value (as a dead or emulated goose), you need to kill the goose hunters. > :-) I guess so. But I'm not sure that total extermination was the only way. >> So now, it's Unix except for the single remaining mainstream proprietary >> system: Windows. Unix today means Linux, while the weirdoes use FreeBSD. >> Everything else seems to be more or less a rounding error. > > Color me weirdo and rounding error since I mainly use NetBSD. It doesn't > change the truth of your statement, though. :-) :-) >> Even the safer ones run on a basis of C > > IMHO, C is the most portable language in the world, not Java. IIRC, many > java runtimes are still written in C. Anytime someone makes a new > processor one of the first things they do is port a C compiler, making a > lot more stuff possible. At a very low-level, rudimentary form of portability, yes. >> Perl has abandoned its base, planned to move onto a VM, then the VM went >> wrong, and now has a new VM and to general amazement and lack of >> interest, Perl 6 is finally here. > > I started learning and using Perl until all this weirdness happened and > they bolted on OO etc... I'm not anti OO but it was all just too much more > me. I bolted to Ruby and Lua. No disrespect to the Perl Monks, I just > couldn't hang anymore. Never got over the line noise aspect. >> So they still have C like holes and there are frequent patches and >> updates to try to make them able to retain some water for a short time, >> while the "cyber criminals" make hundreds of millions. > > I mostly agree, but I would like to say a few things about security issues > and C. > > * Buffer overflows and string format exploits are the biggest > side-effects, security wise. They aren't nearly as common as they were. > There is greater awareness among programmers, compilers, and scanning > tools now (valgrind, rats, etc). Plus the exploit writers have found > more fertile ground in things like SQL injection and CGI interfaces. Both good points, but the thing is, all that stuff shouldn't be necessary. Safer languages can be fast, predictable, suitable for low-level systems work as well as app work. Rich OSes have been built on Oberon, Lisp and other languages. I think the main reason for C's success is culture, not any technical virtue. It's like Paris Hilton or the Kardashians -- famous for being famous. C is popular because C is popular. > * They are pretty easy to prevent most of the time, especially if you care > enough to check or use something like stack-smashing prevention in your > compiler. Also thinks like OS heap randomization has made exploits much > harder. True, but again, *you shouldn't have to*. It means programmer effort, brain power, is being wasted on thinking about being safe instead of spent on writing better programs. > * Yes, they still happen, and still *can* happen, so I don't dispute that. > >> Anything else is "uncommercial" or "not viable for real world use". > > I think this is some phrase I often throw around a little too cavalier. It's not just you. > Just because a language isn't popular doesn't mean I can't learn something > from it. > >> Borland totally dropped the ball and lost a nice little earner in >> Delphi, but it continues as Free Pascal and so on. > > It boggles me, actually. Yeah, me too. But Delphi was a business tool, mostly internal or in small specialised commercial products. It didn't get any academic mindshare, so it didn't get used in OSes -- it was of course proprietary -- and so it never got taken seriously by the big boys. Sun did the right thing open-sourcing Java. Borland should have done the same. > There were some awesome Delphi coders out there. > I thought they'd never be derailed, because they were actually *very* > effective coders I'd seen really powering certain businesses. Yup. > Did Borland > hork things up or what ? One of the biggest fsck-ups in the history of the PC industry, and possibly the single biggest one in programming language history. And barely reported. >> Apple goes its own way, but has forgotten the truly innovative projects >> it had pre-NeXT, such as Dylan. > > And amazing things like Amoeba, Sprite, MOSIX and others have also sort of > dried up and died on the vine. There were some great ideas there. Absolutely, yes. >> The Lisp Machines and Smalltalk boxes lost the workstation war. Unix >> won, and as history is written by the victors, now the alternatives are >> forgotten or dismissed as weird kooky toys of no serious merit. > > I also get that things are lost in this type of "war" the merits and > interesting side of LISP machines etc.. It's not a good thing. Exactly. >> CP/M evolved into a multiuser multitasking 386 OS that could run >> multiple MS-DOS apps on terminals, but it died. > > Hmm, was that before or after things like Desqview came along? I'd > probably guess that's why or just the momentum DOS had for a while. Around the same time. I don't remember the exact timeline -- it was fading away just as I entered the industry. My impression is that the postcard-length summary is: [Before my time] * CP/M lost out to MS-DOS on the PC. * So DR reconsidered, rolled some MP/M tech into it, and launched Concurrent CP/M. CCP/M was a multitasking multiuser CP/M. * This did OK but never had many apps. So, they took some tech from DOS Plus and made it able to run DOS apps: Concurrent DOS. * Now it offered limited multitasking of DOS apps, but only "clean" ones, in text mode only. * But now PC LANs were becoming competitive, so CDOS got enhanced into a 386-native version, using the 386's 86VM tech. This meant that CDOS could run "unruly" DOS apps, including graphics. [This is about when I came in.] * However CDOS only offered limited driver support and couldn't use MS-DOS drivers, networking etc. LAN workstations could. Also, altho' CDOS 386 could handle graphics terminals, they were expensive, rare, limited, and the performance wasn't great. [Now we're around the time of the lacklustre MS-DOS 4.0 and Windows 3] * So DR turned its efforts into making a single-tasking "better DOS than DOS" -- DR-DOS * DR-DOS 3.41 was out there, a slightly better DOS than MS-DOS 3.3, with large disk support. * DR opened up the _retail_ DOS market with DR-DOS 5, with memory management, a MOVE command, etc. * Some DR-DOS tech was merged into CDOS, which was then sold off -- it survived as Concurrent Controls & Datapac's Multiuser DOS & IMS Real32. * MS rejoined with MS-DOS 5. * Novell bought DR; DR-DOS 6 had disk compression * MS-DOS 6 copied that (literally -- it was stolen from STAC's Stacker) * DR-DOS 7 added peer-to-peer networking However, by then, Windows for Workgroups had MS-standard P2P, and DR-DOS 7's Netware-style P2P was too late. * Then MS killed the DOS market by building MS-DOS 7 in as part of Windows 95. >> So the hacked-together GUI for DOS got re-invigorated with an injection >> of OS/2 code, as Windows 3. That took over the world. > > Which was hard to believe for me, too. It must have been a cost thing. > Folks could have had an Amiga, ST, Acorn, Mac, OS/2 (depending on how far > back), a low-end Unix box, etc.. However, I guess ultimately people wanted > whatever they could go to their local software shop and get software for. > It still is a mystery to me why DOS was so popular. Critical mass of apps; cheap clone hardware. OS/2 1 didn't support DOS apps well enough -- a later comment explains why well. OS/2 2 did but was too late. Win3 was technically /very/ clever and supported DOS apps *and drivers*. >> But the marketing men got to it and ruined its security and elegance, to >> produce the lipstick-and-high-heels Windows XP. That version, insecure >> and flakey with its terrible bodged-in browser, that, of course, was the >> one that sold. > > I know, man, there is no accounting for taste. I never even liked the looks. W2K was the last good version for me. :-( > >> Linux got nowhere until it copied the XP model. > > Now, as you also allude to, they have started to copy Windows. Linus seems > to have shifted his attitudes greatly. Check out what he says about GGI > then what he says about Systemd: > > From: > http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=89089527200744&w=2 > > "I don't see the world in black-and-white. I don't actually like > Linux-only features unless they have a good reason for them, and I > really like Linux to be a "standard" system " -Linus 1998 > > " I'm distrustful of projects that do not have well-defined goals, and > well-defined interfaces. They tend to bloat and do "everything" over > time. This is what gives us horrors like GNU emacs and Mach: they > don't try to do one thing well, they try to do _everything_ based on > some loose principle [..]" -Linus 1998 > > Now fast forward to 2015: > > "I have to say, I don't really get the hatred of systemd. I think it > improves a lot on the state of init, and no, I don't see myself getting > into that whole area." -Linus 2015 > > I'll leave the readers to decide if that's hyperbole or there is something > real there. It'll probably split right down the fracture point with > systemd haters vs advocates, I suppose. It still seems pretty emblematic > to me. Good point, well made, and food for thought. Thanks! >> [...] plumbing, huge complex systems, but it looks and works kinda like >> Windows and a Mac now so it looks like them and people use it. > > My theory is that once folks woke up to the potential the Internet had for > improving their real lives, they didn't care how much they polluted the > computing world to get access to that power, and they weren't about to > abide having to learn anything new if they didn't have to. True. OTOH a good enough rich WWW client doesn't need to be either Windows or Unix. >> Android looks kinda like iOS and people use it in their billions. >> Newton? Forgotten. No, people have Unix in their pocket, only it's a >> bloated successor of Unix. > > My personal opinion is that though those devices might give devs a taste > of *some* of the power of Unix, none of those devices show the *user* any > of the so-called "Unix philosophy" (KISS, everything is a file, etc..). > What's also sad is that those users don't give a hoot. However, I'm not > really surprised. I grew up in an era when computers were NOT cool for > kids. If you liked them or wanted to play games on a computer, that made > you a "nerd" or "geek" when those words were purely pejorative. Now those > same people can't look up from their phones long enough to keep from > falling down stairs, walking in front of subway trains, or uhh.... living. It's odd, isn't it? > I still carry a Symbian phone since I find both Android and iOS so > invasive and annoying. It's a strange shake up on the world I grew up in. Oh, nice! Which one? >> The efforts to fix and improve Unix -- Plan 9, Inferno -- forgotten. > > Plan 9 is still being (very slowly) developed. Ken is still involved last > I heard. It is, true, but it's a sideline now. And the steps made by Inferno seem to have had even less impact. I'd like to see the 2 merged back into 1. >> We have less and less choice, made from worse parts on worse foundations >> -- but it's colourful and shiny and the world loves it. That makes me >> despair. > > Right there with you, Liam. Someone posted today about the good parts of > the Internet that we got with the deal. Massive communication and > documentation are truly positive side effects for the most part. However, > I suppose I have mixed feelings, nonetheless. I seem to be exceptionally gloomy. Few seem to share it. I turned my comment into a blog post too... http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/48669.html ... That is getting some very harsh feedback both on FB and on LJ itself. >> We have poor-quality tools, built on poorly-designed OSes, running on >> poorly-designed chips. > > Yes, and even though there is *more* overall documentation on the > Internet, the docs you get with hardware and tools are nowhere near as > good as they were in the 80s AFAIK. Nobody ships manuals with source code > and schematics. The last I saw of that was BeOS and The Be Book. I dunno... Web fora and Stack Overflow aren't documentation per se. :-/ I loved BeOS but never saw the Be Book. :-( >> Occasionally someone comes along and points this out and shows a better >> way -- such as Curtis Yarvin's Urbit. Lisp Machines re-imagined for the >> 21st century, based on top of modern machines. But nobody gets it, and >> its programmer has some unpleasant and unpalatable ideas, so it's >> doomed. > > Well, when it comes to that front, I've been in this business for about 20 > years now, and I don't understand those efforts. It might be because it's sort of orthogonal to, well, the PC industry since the '386, maybe before. Looked at from the POV of study of Lisp machines and so on, it makes perfect sense -- but Yarvin has a political/economic agenda. That obfuscates it. OTOH it also gives it a selling point. >> And the kids who grew up after C won the battle deride the former >> glories, the near-forgotten brilliance that we have lost. > > I see that and I can better appreciate where you are coming from when you > couch it this way. Only the good die young. "Some will rise by sin and > some by virtue fall." -Shakespear Nice! >> I apologise unreservedly for my intemperance. I just wanted to try to >> explain why I did it. > > I completely understand. I am sorry for associating LISP with some crappy > experiences I had in school 20 years ago. You and other folks come from a > noble tradition. It was wrong of me to scorn that, even for an unrelated > reason. Thanks for that. I don't really come from that tradition, I think. I'm just a student of it, trying to understand what, why, and how it all disappeared. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 08:40:54 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:40:54 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160427185010.CFAB218C127@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160427185010.CFAB218C127@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 27 April 2016 at 20:50, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Liam Proven > > > There's the not-remotely-safe kinda-sorta C in a web browser, > > Javascript. > > Love the rant, which I mostly agree with (_especially_ that one). Thank you! The JS line is the one that's attracting particularly harsh criticism on FB, incidentally. > A couple of > comments: > > > So they still have C like holes and there are frequent patches and > > updates to try to make them able to retain some water for a short time, > > while the "cyber criminals" make hundreds of millions. > > It's not clear to me that a 'better language' is going to get rid of that, > because there will always be bugs (and the bigger the application, and the > more it gets changed, the more there will be). The vibe I get from my > knowledge of security is that it takes a secure OS, running on hardware that > enforces security, to really fix the problem. (Google "Roger Schell".) I have and will read up on this before I comment. > > The Lisp Machines and Smalltalk boxes lost the workstation war. Unix > > won, and as history is written by the victors > > Custom hardware for running LISP lost (not sure about Smalltalk, don't know > much about it), I am quite sure, mostly because 'mainstream' CPUs got so much > faster/cheaper, because of the volume. I saw this happening in the AI Lab at > MIT: when you could run LISP on a workstation with a vanilla CPU much faster > than a specialized LISP processor, that's all she wrote. (That effect killed > all sorts of things, not just LISP machines, of course.) Yes, so I've heard. But the thing, the big thing, is that computers aren't organisms. We can study dinosaurs and work out what they were good and bad at, but Jurassic Park will never happen. Absent time machines, we cannot bring them back. But we could build new computers using the lessons of the past. But nobody much is doing it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 08:59:53 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:59:53 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 27 April 2016 at 22:13, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: >> On 26 April 2016 at 16:41, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> When I was playing with home micros (mainly Sinclair and Amstrad; the >> American stuff was just too expensive for Brits in the early-to-mid >> 1980s), the culture was that Real Men programmed in assembler and the >> main battle was Z80 versus 6502, with a few weirdos saying that 6809 >> was better than either. BASIC was the language for beginners, and a >> few weirdos maintained that Forth was better. > > The 6908 *is* better than either the Z80 or the 6502 (yes, I'm one of > *those* 8-) Hurrah! :-D >> So now, it's Unix except for the single remaining mainstream >> proprietary system: Windows. Unix today means Linux, while the >> weirdoes use FreeBSD. Everything else seems to be more or less a >> rounding error. > > There are still VxWorks and QNX in embedded systems (I think both are now > flying through space on various probes) so it's not quite a monoculture. > But yes, the desktop does have severe moncultures. True. I own a Blackberry Passport, a lovely QNX device. But it's for sale. I have a new cheap Chinese Android phone that does much much more. :-( It's all about the apps... >> C always was like carrying water in a sieve, so now, we have multiple >> C derivatives, trying to patch the holes. > > Citation needed. C derivatives? The only one I'm aware of is C++ and > that's a far way from C nowadays (and no, using curly braces does not make > something a C derivative). Directly? Objective C, D. Indirectly? Well, almost anything written in it. Your curly-braces point is true, but the influence is, I feel, quite pervasive. >> C++ has grown up but it's >> like Ada now: so huge that nobody understands it all, but actually, a >> fairly usable tool. >> >> There's the kinda-sorta FOSS "safe C++ in a VM", Java. The proprietary >> kinda-sorta "safe C++ in a VM", C#. There's the not-remotely-safe >> kinda-sorta C in a web browser, Javascript. > > They may be implemented in C, but they're all a far cry from C (unless > youmean they're imperative languages, then yes, they're "like" C in that > reguard). This point is getting made to me on FB as well. I think there is a clear /influence/ and some C-isms -- direct memory allocation, pointer manipulation and so on -- are widespread /because/ of the C family influence. And I have a deep suspicion that these are harmful things. >> And dozens of others, of course. > > Rust is now written in Rust. Go is now written in Go. Same with D. > There are modern alternatives to C. And if the community is anything to go > by, there is a slowly growing contigent of programmers that would outlaw the > use of C (punishable by death). Do you really think it's growing? I'd like very much to believe that. I see little sign of it. I do hope you're right. >> So they still have C like holes and there are frequent patches and >> updates to try to make them able to retain some water for a short >> time, while the "cyber criminals" make hundreds of millions. > > I seriously think outlawing C will not fix the problems, but I think I'm > in the minority on that feeling. We would, of course, merely get different problems instead. ;-) >> Anything else is "uncommercial" or "not viable for real world use". >> >> Borland totally dropped the ball and lost a nice little earner in >> Delphi, but it continues as Free Pascal and so on. >> >> Apple goes its own way, but has forgotten the truly innovative >> projects it had pre-NeXT, such as Dylan. >> >> There were real projects that were actually used for real work, like >> Oberon the OS, written in Oberon the language. Real pioneering work in >> UIs, such as Jef Raskin's machines, the original Mac and Canon Cat -- >> forgotten. People rhapsodise over the Amiga and forget that the >> planned OS, CAOS, to be as radical as the hardware, never made it out >> of the lab. Same, on a smaller scale, with the Acorn Archimedes. > > While the Canon Cat was innovative, perhaps it was too early. We were > still in the era of general purpose computers and the idea of an > "information appliance" was still in its infancy and perhaps, not an idea > people were willing to deal with at the time. Also, how easy was it to get > data *out* of the Canon Cat? (now that I think about it---it came with a > disk drive, so in theory, possible) You could word process, do some > calculations, simple programming ... but no Solitare. True. > As for CAOS, I haven't heard of it (and yes, I did the Amiga thing in the > early 90s). What was unique about it? And as much as I loved the Amiga, > the GUI API (at least 1.x version) was very tied to the hardware and the OS > was very much uniprocessor in design. There's not a lot about it out there, but there's some. http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35526&forum=32&14 >> Despite that, of course, Lisp never went away. People still use it, >> but they keep their heads down and get on with it. >> >> Much the same applies to Smalltalk. Still there, still in use, still >> making real money and doing real work, but forgotten all the same. >> >> The Lisp Machines and Smalltalk boxes lost the workstation war. Unix >> won, and as history is written by the victors, now the alternatives >> are forgotten or dismissed as weird kooky toys of no serious merit. >> >> The senior Apple people didn't understand the essence of what they saw >> at PARC: they only saw the chrome. > > To be fair, *everybody* missed the essence of what they did at PARC; even > Alan Kay wasn't of much help ("I meant message passing, *not* objects!" > "Then why didn't you say so earlier?" "And Smalltalk was *never* meant to be > standardized! It was meant to be replaced with something else every six > months!" "Uh, Alan, that's *not* how industry works."). True, true. :-( > The problem with the Lisp machines (from what I can see) is not that they > were bad, but they were too expensive and the cheap Unix workstations > overtook them in performance. Had Symbolics and LMI moved their software to > commodity hardware they might have survived (in this, Bill Gates was > right---it was software, not hardware, where the money was). Symbolics ultimately did, of course -- the last iterations of Genera ran on Tru64 on Alphas, but under an emulator. > Smalltalk has other issues. In the 80s, there were not many machines > capable of running Smalltalk (I'm not aware of any implementation on micros, > serious or not) and by the time workstations where becoming cheap enough, > the Smalltalk vendors were charging rediculous amounts of money for > Smalltalk. The other issue is the image---how do you "distribute" software > written in Smalltalk? Smalltalk is the application is Smalltalk, so you > have to buy into the whole ecosystem (perhaps in the 90s---today, probably > less so). Both are serious issues, yes. >> They copied the chrome, not the >> essence, and now all that *any* of us have is the chrome. We have >> GUIs, but on top of the nasty kludgy hacks of C and the like. A >> late-'60s skunkware project now runs the world, and the real serious >> research efforts to make something better, both before and after, are >> forgotten historical footnotes. > > The essence being (LISP|Smalltalk) all the way from top to bottom? Certainly part of it, yes. >> Modern computers are a vast disappointment to me. We have no thinking >> machines. The Fifth Generation, Lisp, all that -- gone. >> >> What did we get instead? >> >> Like dinosaurs, the expensive high-end machines of the '70s and '80s >> didn't evolve into their successors. They were just replaced. First >> little cheapo 8-bits, not real or serious at all, although they were >> cheap and people did serious stuff with them because it's all they >> could afford. The early 8-bits ran semi-serious OSes such as CP/M, but >> when their descendants sold a thousand times more, those descendants >> weren't running descendants of that OS -- no, it and its creator died. > > I beg to differ. MS-DOS *was* CP/M (or rather, CP/M on the 8086). I've > studied CP/M and have had to implement a portion of MS-DOS for a one-off > project of mine [1] that used the CP/M era system calls of MS-DOS (MS-DOS > later got more Unix like system calls, which are actually nicer to use than > the CP/M versions). Well, yes, OK, but I directly addressed that in the next paragraph or so of the text you quoted! MS-DOS was QDOS, QDOS was a CP/M knock-off. >> CP/M evolved into a multiuser multitasking 386 OS that could run >> multiple MS-DOS apps on terminals, but it died. >> >> No, then the cheapo 8-bits thrived in the form of an 8/16-bit hybrid, >> the 8086 and 8088, and a cheapo knock-off of CP/M. >> >> This got a redesign into something grown-up: OS/2. >> >> Predictably, that died. > > Because Microsoft and IBM had different goals. Microsoft wanted a 32-bit > version initially; IBM did not want to eat into their mini and main frame > business and IBM had the clout to push their agenda and thus, OS/2 1.x for > the 80286. The partnership soured in 1990, Microsoft went with NT and IBM > took over OS/2 but didn't have the marketing clout (or savviness) if > Microsoft. Absolutely, yes. >> So the hacked-together GUI for DOS got re-invigorated with an >> injection of OS/2 code, as Windows 3. That took over the world. >> >> The rivals - the Amiga, ST, etc? 680x0 chips, lots of flat memory, >> whizzy graphics and sound? All dead. > > The 68k series dies because Motorola could not compete with Intel. > Morotola did more than just chips (radios, cell phones) whereas Intel did > nothing *but* chips, and with Microsoft pushing computers into every home (a > definite goal of Bill Gates, but of course all them running Microsoft > software) gave Intel a significant bankroll to make the x86 line performant > (and no one really wanted the Intel RISC chips; at least, not to the degree > to make continued development profitable). An interesting analysis. Not heard that argument before. Thanks! >> Then Windows got re-invented with some OS/2 3 ideas and code, and some >> from VMS, and we got Windows NT. >> >> But the marketing men got to it and ruined its security and elegance, >> to produce the lipstick-and-high-heels Windows XP. That version, >> insecure and flakey with its terrible bodged-in browser, that, of >> course, was the one that sold. > > ?Consistent mediocrity, delivered on a large scale, is much more > profitable than anything on a small scale, no matter how efficient > it might be.? :'( >> Linux got nowhere until it copied the XP model. The days of small >> programs, everything's a text file, etc. -- all forgotten. Nope, >> lumbering GUI apps, CORBA and RPC and other weird plumbing, huge >> complex systems, but it looks and works kinda like Windows and a Mac >> now so it looks like them and people use it. > > COBRA was dead by the mid-90s and had nothing (that I know of) to do with > Linux. And the lumbering GUI apps, RPC, etc that you are complaining about > is the userland stuff---nothing to do with the Linux kernel (okay, perhaps > I'm nitpicking here). GNOME 1 was heavily based on CORBA. (I believe -- but am not sure -- that later versions discarded much of it.) KDE reinvented that particular wheel. >> Android looks kinda like iOS and people use it in their billions. >> Newton? Forgotten. No, people have Unix in their pocket, only it's a >> bloated successor of Unix. >> >> The efforts to fix and improve Unix -- Plan 9, Inferno -- forgotten. A >> proprietary microkernel Unix-like OS for phones -- Blackberry 10, >> based on QNX -- not Androidy enough, and bombed. >> >> We have less and less choice, made from worse parts on worse >> foundations -- but it's colourful and shiny and the world loves it. > > Look at any industry and the pattern repeats. I daresay you're right, but some seem to be improving. I remember a comment from my non-techie neighbour back in the UK... I owned the right-hand half of the semi-detached house for 12y, he the left for 24. He commented that he used to manoeuvre his car, with difficulty, into the too-small garage "back when cars went rusty", but he no longer bothered. I don't like cars. I'm more into motorbikes. I didn't know car tech had moved on like that. Cars don't rust any more? So I did some digging, and yes, it appears to be true. Yes, they're more closed, harder for the owner to maintain -- but C21 cars need much less maintenance and do not corrode any more. Motorbikes, meanwhile, are stunningly lightweight and yet powerful by the standards of my own youth in the 1980s, when they'd not moved on much from the '60s. Bicycles have also undergone amazing changes this century -- wireless electronic self-calibrating gear shifting, hydraulic disk brakes, suspension as standard, remarkably lightweight so that racing machines need to be ballasted to meet ancient obsolete weight requirements. This even permits power-assist to be concealed entirely within the standard frame of racing bikes now -- motor, gearing, batteries, the lot! Computers? They run less hot now than a decade ago. Use less electricity. Fancy ones have better 3D. Some have SSDs. That's about it. Compared to a decade before that? Better but more restrictive firmware. Slimmer cabling, faster buses. More cores. Compared to a decade before that? Now the OSes are more solid and reliable. They can do video and 3D with less work now, even within a GUI. The ports are smaller, simpler, more robust. The internal interconnects have changed and the OSes now have proper 32-bit kernels. Actual functionality hasn't vastly changed since the mid-90s, it's just got better. The mid-90s PC merely managed to reproduce the GUIs, multitasking and sound/colour support of mid-80s proprietary systems, on the COTS PC platform. I'd argue the last big change was the Mac and GUIs, just over 30 years ago. And I reiterate: >> That makes me despair. >> >> We have poor-quality tools, built on poorly-designed OSes, running on >> poorly-designed chips. Occasionally, fragments of older better ways, >> such as functional-programming tools, or Lisp-based development >> environments, are layered on top of them, but while they're useful in >> their way, they can't fix the real problems underneath. >> >> Occasionally someone comes along and points this out and shows a >> better way -- such as Curtis Yarvin's Urbit. > > I'm still not convinced Curtis isn't trolling with Urbit. Like Alan Kay, > he's not saying anything, expecting us to figure out what he means (and then > yell at us for failing to successfully read his mind). Oh no, he has built something amazing, and better still, he has a plan and a justification for it. I fear it's just too /different/ for most people, just like functional programming is. > -spc (Have dealt with my share of "geniuses" yelling at me for failing to > read their mind ... ) I can relate to that. > [1] https://github.com/spc476/NaNoGenMo-2015 > https://github.com/dariusk/NaNoGenMo-2015/issues/184 > -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Apr 28 09:08:54 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:08:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201604271553.LAA18867@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201604281408.KAA00665@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Well, I think "Sun god" is a significant overstatement, and I'm >> pretty sure I never capitalized the "der", but yes, that was me. > It's not an overstatement to me, sir. Thank you. I'm glad to hear I helped; I've received so very much from the net - as cynical and bitter as I tend to wax about its current state in general - that it's nice to know I've given a little back. > Heh, that reminds me of living in Norway and learning to speak Norsk Which reminds me of my own time i Norge (Troms?, to be specific). I never did learn to speak any significant amount of Norwegian, neither bokm?l nor nynorsk, but I did manage some minor proficiency in the written language. (Unfortunately I haven't kept it up, and it's been over thirteen years now, so I've probably lost much of it. I should get out my copy of Dr?mmen om Narnia and see if I can still read as much as I used to be able to.) To drag my reminiscences at least a little bit back on topic, I also remember the house netlink I had. I was working for Universitetet i Troms?, and they set me up with a microwave link to the borettslag I was living in on the mainland...but it was IPv6-only. 'Twas a sharp lesson in how v6-unready my tools were at the time. My desktop was a SPARCstation, and it was the first time I'd really tried to use Seagate Barracudas anywhere near my desktop; those things were _noisy_! /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Apr 28 09:35:50 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <201604281435.KAA29728@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> But the marketing men got to it and ruined its security and >> elegance, to produce the lipstick-and-high-heels Windows XP. That >> version, insecure and flakey with its terrible bodged-in browser, >> that, of course, was the one that sold. > ???Consistent mediocrity, delivered on a large scale, is much > more profitable than anything on a small scale, no matter how > efficient it might be.??? Indeed. Ask any junk-food chain. The depressing (to me) part is that there seems to be a place for decent-quality restaurants in the same restaurant-food ecosystem that contains junk-food chains...but there doesn't seem to be the analog in the computer operating system ecosystem. >> Linux got nowhere until it copied the XP model. Only for corporate values of "nowhere". Considering it to be a failure because it wasn't grabbing "market" share, or because there weren't large companies involved, is to buy into the problem, defining success in monetary (or near-monetary) terms. I don't know what Linus's original vision for Linux was, so I don't know when (if ever) it was his idea of a success. But I would have called it a success much earlier, and, indeed, I would be tempted to say it failed _when_ it "copied the XP model" and "got somewhere", because that's when it lost the benefits early versions brought. I can't help wondering how many people use Linux because "Open Source" but have never once even tried to build anything from source. Personally, it doesn't run on my machines unless I personally built it from source; my only use for a binary distribution is the first install on a new architecture, and even that not always - sometimes I can cross-build or some such. Yours in curmudgeonicity, /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From schoedel at kw.igs.net Thu Apr 28 09:37:05 2016 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:37:05 -0400 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:19:43 +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote > But they built it out of circles and straight lines and that's what I do. That's superficially, but not exactly, true. Even the 'o' is not a perfect circle, and you can't get close to replicating the 's' or the digits that way. I took a stab at replicating the 'classic dec' font about a decade ago, following scanned DEC manuals wherever possible. I built up most of the basic ASCII set in the outline form before suspending the project. (I suspect the solid form can mostly be derived from paths through the middle of the outline strokes.) It did get used a few years ago by our Jason T for some VCF Midwest graphics - https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/VCFMW50OfficialGraphics#551251 2730455260610 I'm unlikely to continue the project any time soon, since I no longer own any DEC gear of that era, so I will gather up my work in progress and make it available under a suitably liberal license (probably Apache, which is one of the 'standards' in the font world) for anyone to continue. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 09:44:04 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:44:04 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201604281435.KAA29728@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <201604281435.KAA29728@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 28 April 2016 at 16:35, Mouse wrote: >>> But the marketing men got to it and ruined its security and >>> elegance, to produce the lipstick-and-high-heels Windows XP. That >>> version, insecure and flakey with its terrible bodged-in browser, >>> that, of course, was the one that sold. >> ???Consistent mediocrity, delivered on a large scale, is much >> more profitable than anything on a small scale, no matter how >> efficient it might be.??? > > Indeed. Ask any junk-food chain. > > The depressing (to me) part is that there seems to be a place for > decent-quality restaurants in the same restaurant-food ecosystem that > contains junk-food chains...but there doesn't seem to be the analog in > the computer operating system ecosystem. Absolutely! This is *the* key question, really. >>> Linux got nowhere until it copied the XP model. > > Only for corporate values of "nowhere". Considering it to be a failure > because it wasn't grabbing "market" share, or because there weren't > large companies involved, is to buy into the problem, defining success > in monetary (or near-monetary) terms. > > I don't know what Linus's original vision for Linux was, so I don't > know when (if ever) it was his idea of a success. But I would have > called it a success much earlier, and, indeed, I would be tempted to > say it failed _when_ it "copied the XP model" and "got somewhere", > because that's when it lost the benefits early versions brought. OK, a very fair point. Linux was indeed popular and widely-used in the FOSS world, and among Unix types. But it still took many years for Canonical's Bug #0 to be closed. I'd argue 2 things helped achieve that. First, Ubuntu made Debian usable by mortals. I ran SuSE before Warty Warthog, but I wasn't that happy with it. It was merely the least-worst option since Caldera self-immolated. Ubuntu achieved its goal, which, reading between the lines, was basically "a Linux distro simple enough that the average Windows power user will be able to install it and get useful work done using it, without extras or tweaking". AIUI Ubuntu today is a bit over half of Linux desktop usage, as best as anyone can estimate this. I suspect that means that actually, Ubuntu has (probably quite a lot more than) doubled desktop Linux usage, and it's forced all the other distros to up their game. (Actually it's forced a lot of them out of the game, which is sad, but probably inevitable.) I also gather that it is now strongly dominant in cloud/VM deployments. Secondly, Android. Android is probably something like 99% of non-server/embedded Linux usage. In terms of Linuxes that ordinary people actually directly interact with -- excluding washing machines, ATMs, whatever -- Android is, I strongly suspect, *it* and everything else is a rounding error. > I can't help wondering how many people use Linux because "Open Source" > but have never once even tried to build anything from source. Some, certainly. > Personally, it doesn't run on my machines unless I personally built it > from source; my only use for a binary distribution is the first install > on a new architecture, and even that not always - sometimes I can > cross-build or some such. > > Yours in curmudgeonicity, I confess that I have never been that hardcore, or determined, or -- probably -- skilled. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 28 09:58:43 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:58:43 -0400 Subject: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <20160428032850.9911DAB3CE7FC@bart0113.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160428032850.9911DAB3CE7FC@bart0113.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <474A9480-FD57-4422-93D5-9BD0471ED7A3@comcast.net> > On Apr 27, 2016, at 11:28 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > ... > Objective-C was the only other C derivative to have a significant > impact. Did it really? It is used in the Mac, much as Bliss was in VMS, but apart from that, would anyone use it? paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 28 10:07:14 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 11:07:14 -0400 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> References: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 28, 2016, at 10:37 AM, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: > > On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:19:43 +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote >> But they built it out of circles and straight lines and that's what I do. > > That's superficially, but not exactly, true. Even the 'o' is not a perfect > circle, and you can't get close to replicating the 's' or the digits that way. > > I took a stab at replicating the 'classic dec' font about a decade ago, following > scanned DEC manuals wherever possible. I built up most of the basic ASCII set in > the outline form before suspending the project. (I suspect the solid form can > mostly be derived from paths through the middle of the outline strokes.) It did > get used a few years ago by our Jason T for some VCF Midwest graphics - > https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/VCFMW50OfficialGraphics#551251 > 2730455260610 Neat. I did the same many years ago, using CorelDraw as a very poor man's font maker, but it was just good enough to create the basic outlines. I call the font "Handbook" and I've sent out TTF files of it at times. I can do so again if anyone wants it. It has no kerning in it (no support for that in CorelDraw). I could probably add those with a better font editor. The samples you pointed to don't take into account that there are two versions of f and t and r -- one for end of word that has the long curl in your design, and one for mid-word that has a shorter curl. paul From turing at shaw.ca Thu Apr 28 10:08:45 2016 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 09:08:45 -0600 (MDT) Subject: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <474A9480-FD57-4422-93D5-9BD0471ED7A3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <115447643.39167481.1461856125690.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca> It is also the basis for iOS - you know, the system that runs on iPhones. I'd say that would be considered a significant impact - over 1.5 million applications. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 7:58:43 AM Subject: Re: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from) > On Apr 27, 2016, at 11:28 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > ... > Objective-C was the only other C derivative to have a significant > impact. Did it really? It is used in the Mac, much as Bliss was in VMS, but apart from that, would anyone use it? paul From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 10:21:09 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 09:21:09 -0600 (MDT) Subject: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <474A9480-FD57-4422-93D5-9BD0471ED7A3@comcast.net> References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160428032850.9911DAB3CE7FC@bart0113.email.locaweb.com.br> <474A9480-FD57-4422-93D5-9BD0471ED7A3@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > Did it really? It is used in the Mac, much as Bliss was in VMS, but > apart from that, would anyone use it? It's had at least a mediocre run. I mean, they used it for NeXTStep apps too. It's been around for quite a while with a pretty solid core of adherents. A C++ god that I used to work with called it "C++ without the suck". I don't particularly think C++ sucks, though (or I guess I got used to it). I never could read Obj-C, due to lack of practice in the lang, and too much at-colon-dash-at going on. However, again it was probably just lack of familiarity, on paper at least, it has some nice features. -Swift PS: If you folks who care about C are interested and haven't done any coding a while, check out the features in C11. I'm loving things like quick_exit() and the static assertions. I also am hoping for a cogent Annex K bound checking interface once it hits gcc, though I have my own cheesy cheap-az solutions for that kind of stuff (a little thing I call a reflective reference counter). From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 28 10:32:13 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:32:13 -0500 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57222CFD.9050606@pico-systems.com> On 04/28/2016 07:19 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > I'd like to recover the DEC fonts and have looked at > several font creator/editors. > > Frankly they are dung. Every fancy curve there is but not > a straight forward line and circle method of creating > lower case characters > > as DEC did it. I do need the ability to enter (or > import) the lower case characters using just circles and > lines. > > > Suggestions please > Have you tried MetaFont? I've never actually created a font with it, just used it automatically within the TeX environment. But, there is a human-readable language that defines the characters. Jon From ben at bensinclair.com Thu Apr 28 10:35:17 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:35:17 -0500 Subject: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160428032850.9911DAB3CE7FC@bart0113.email.locaweb.com.br> <474A9480-FD57-4422-93D5-9BD0471ED7A3@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > It's had at least a mediocre run. I mean, they used it for NeXTStep apps > too. It's been around for quite a while with a pretty solid core of > adherents. A C++ god that I used to work with called it "C++ without the > suck". I don't particularly think C++ sucks, though (or I guess I got used > to it). I never could read Obj-C, due to lack of practice in the lang, and > too much at-colon-dash-at going on. However, again it was probably just > lack of familiarity, on paper at least, it has some nice features. > I do a lot of iOS development and it took me years to get used to, or at least feel comfortable with, Objective-C. At first I hated how verbose it and Apple's SDKs felt, but appreciate a lot of that now. I'm doing some embedded C++ work right now too, and often wish I could use Objective-C there. I haven't done any C++ in years though, and have found C++11 added some nice things. I'll try whatever is new and fun though, and I've been enjoying Swift (the language!) quite a bit. Apple is pushing it pretty hard, so I'll probably use it for my next big iOS project. -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 28 10:45:05 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:45:05 +0100 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: References: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: On 28/04/2016 16:07, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Apr 28, 2016, at 10:37 AM, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: >> >> On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:19:43 +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote >>> But they built it out of circles and straight lines and that's what I do. >> That's superficially, but not exactly, true. Even the 'o' is not a perfect >> circle, and you can't get close to replicating the 's' or the digits that way. >> >> I took a stab at replicating the 'classic dec' font about a decade ago, following >> scanned DEC manuals wherever possible. I built up most of the basic ASCII set in >> the outline form before suspending the project. (I suspect the solid form can >> mostly be derived from paths through the middle of the outline strokes.) It did >> get used a few years ago by our Jason T for some VCF Midwest graphics - >> https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/VCFMW50OfficialGraphics#551251 >> 2730455260610 > Neat. I did the same many years ago, using CorelDraw as a very poor man's font maker, but it was just good enough to create the basic outlines. I call the font "Handbook" and I've sent out TTF files of it at times. I can do so again if anyone wants it. It has no kerning in it (no support for that in CorelDraw). I could probably add those with a better font editor. > > The samples you pointed to don't take into account that there are two versions of f and t and r -- one for end of word that has the long curl in your design, and one for mid-word that has a shorter curl. > > paul > OK I have grabbed the VCF stuff. Anything that takes the Panel Project forward really helps. I have shipped a number of panels already and now I'm on version 3 of the PDP-8 panels. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 28 10:42:39 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:42:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Calling all typographers References: <2100235823.3237946.1461858159133.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2100235823.3237946.1461858159133.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Thu, 4/28/16, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Every fancy curve there is but not a straight > forward line and circle method of? creating lower case > characters I'm not sure if you count it as straightforward, but I'd suggest METAFONT. Straight lines are certainly straightforward. Circles are a little more fun, but once you get the hang of the math, most any curve is pretty easy to create. BLS From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 28 10:46:57 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:46:57 +0100 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: <57222CFD.9050606@pico-systems.com> References: <57222CFD.9050606@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 28/04/2016 16:32, Jon Elson wrote: > On 04/28/2016 07:19 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> I'd like to recover the DEC fonts and have looked at several font >> creator/editors. >> >> Frankly they are dung. Every fancy curve there is but not a straight >> forward line and circle method of creating lower case characters >> >> as DEC did it. I do need the ability to enter (or import) the lower >> case characters using just circles and lines. >> >> >> Suggestions please >> > Have you tried MetaFont? I've never actually created a font with it, > just used it automatically within the TeX environment. But, there is > a human-readable language that defines the characters. > > Jon I haven't where would I find it? Rod From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 28 10:50:14 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:50:14 +0100 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: <2100235823.3237946.1461858159133.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2100235823.3237946.1461858159133.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2100235823.3237946.1461858159133.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8ffe31b1-a8aa-3c2e-cdb3-9d22c444b8a7@btinternet.com> On 28/04/2016 16:42, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > On Thu, 4/28/16, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Every fancy curve there is but not a straight >> forward line and circle method of creating lower case >> characters > I'm not sure if you count it as straightforward, but I'd > suggest METAFONT. Straight lines are certainly straightforward. > Circles are a little more fun, but once you get the hang > of the math, most any curve is pretty easy to create. > > BLS Well that's two votes for metafont so far. Rod From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 28 10:54:07 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:54:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from References: <2049815262.3237356.1461858847716.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2049815262.3237356.1461858847716.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Thu, 4/28/16, Liam Proven wrote: > Oh, yes, indeed! I have a Plan 9 VM, and I intend to try it on my Pi. > But it's had relatively little impact on mainstream Unix. I would agree, given the qualification "relatively." There are several things that have made their way from the late research UNIX editions and Plan 9 to the mainstream UNIX world. The unfortunate part is that they're little bits and pieces and as a result miss the major advantages by not bringing in the big picture. For example, the proc file system that most UNIXs have today was originally in either 9th or 10th edition and is a central part of the design of Plan 9. The _clone() system call that now underlies good old fork() in Linux is basically the Plan 9 rfork() call. Several UNIXs are starting to graft in per-process name spaces. There are also a number of research systems that are bringing in a lot of Plan 9 influence. The only one whose name comes to mind at the moment, though, is Akaros. BLS From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 28 10:58:06 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:58:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Calling all typographers References: <1075820719.3207621.1461859086670.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1075820719.3207621.1461859086670.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Thu, 4/28/16, Rod Smallwood wrote: > On 28/04/2016 16:32, Jon Elson wrote: >> Have you tried MetaFont?? I've never actually created a font with it, >> just used it automatically within the TeX environment.? But, there is >> a human-readable language that defines the characters. > > I haven't where would I find it? It should be part of pretty much any TeX installation. I don't know if anyone has packaged it up independently of TeX though. If you don't already have TeX installed, I'll warn you that the mainstream TeX distributions are pretty huge. There's a build-from-source distribution called kerTeX that I use. It's much closer to Knuth's original packaging and I find to be quite a bit more managable. If all you need is METAFONT, then that might be a nice way to go. BLS From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 28 11:05:07 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:05:07 -0400 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: <2100235823.3237946.1461858159133.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2100235823.3237946.1461858159133.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2100235823.3237946.1461858159133.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 28, 2016, at 11:42 AM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > > On Thu, 4/28/16, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Every fancy curve there is but not a straight >> forward line and circle method of creating lower case >> characters > > I'm not sure if you count it as straightforward, but I'd > suggest METAFONT. Straight lines are certainly straightforward. > Circles are a little more fun, but once you get the hang > of the math, most any curve is pretty easy to create. Metafont has a fatal defect: it only generates bitmap fonts. Those have been obsolete for decades (except, occasionally, on display devices). paul From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 28 11:13:00 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 17:13:00 +0100 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <2049815262.3237356.1461858847716.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2049815262.3237356.1461858847716.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2049815262.3237356.1461858847716.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5278fc6a-3630-89d9-3b2e-95eb671bc34f@btinternet.com> On 28/04/2016 16:54, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > On Thu, 4/28/16, Liam Proven wrote: >> Oh, yes, indeed! I have a Plan 9 VM, and I intend to try it on my Pi. >> But it's had relatively little impact on mainstream Unix. > I would agree, given the qualification "relatively." There are several > things that have made their way from the late research UNIX editions > and Plan 9 to the mainstream UNIX world. The unfortunate part is that > they're little bits and pieces and as a result miss the major advantages > by not bringing in the big picture. For example, the proc file system > that most UNIXs have today was originally in either 9th or 10th edition > and is a central part of the design of Plan 9. The _clone() system call > that now underlies good old fork() in Linux is basically the Plan 9 > rfork() call. Several UNIXs are starting to graft in per-process name > spaces. There are also a number of research systems that are bringing > in a lot of Plan 9 influence. The only one whose name comes to > mind at the moment, though, is Akaros. > > BLS How about morse by a key made in 1898 . Then cw to ascii serial converter and normal program input after that. Rod From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 28 11:18:06 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:18:06 -0400 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F89F4D0-5147-4931-9C53-C959C15FDD6F@comcast.net> > On Apr 28, 2016, at 8:19 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > ... > I'd like to recover the DEC fonts and have looked at several font creator/editors. > > Frankly they are dung. Every fancy curve there is but not a straight forward line and circle method of creating lower case characters > as DEC did it. I do need the ability to enter (or import) the lower case characters using just circles and lines. I just found FontForge, which is open source. A few minutes experimentation shows that it is quite happy to draw straight lines, including doing obvious stuff like line segments forced to be horizontal or vertical, or circles or ellipses. Bezier curves too, of course. paul From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 28 11:23:07 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:23:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from References: <365093270.3317547.1461860587980.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <365093270.3317547.1461860587980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Thu, 4/28/16, Rod Smallwood wrote: > How about morse by a key made in 1898 . Then cw to ascii serial > converter and? normal program input after that. I've often thought of doing that! Though my key dates from more like the '40s or '50s. I see a weekend Raspberry Pi hack in my future... BLS From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 28 12:05:34 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:05:34 -0500 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: References: <57222CFD.9050606@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <572242DE.1020209@pico-systems.com> On 04/28/2016 10:46 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > On 28/04/2016 16:32, Jon Elson wrote: >> Have you tried MetaFont? I've never actually created a >> font with it, just used it automatically within the TeX >> environment. But, there is a human-readable language >> that defines the characters. >> >> Jon > I haven't where would I find it? > It is a part of the TeX package, although only the font creator is there, as "mf". The TeX-Live package seems to include a bunch of font creation tools. That should be available for most Linux distros. You should also be able to get it on Windows, but might be a bit harder to find. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 28 12:12:31 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:12:31 -0500 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: References: <2100235823.3237946.1461858159133.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2100235823.3237946.1461858159133.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5722447F.508@pico-systems.com> On 04/28/2016 11:05 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Apr 28, 2016, at 11:42 AM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: >> >> On Thu, 4/28/16, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> Every fancy curve there is but not a straight >>> forward line and circle method of creating lower case >>> characters >> I'm not sure if you count it as straightforward, but I'd >> suggest METAFONT. Straight lines are certainly straightforward. >> Circles are a little more fun, but once you get the hang >> of the math, most any curve is pretty easy to create. > Metafont has a fatal defect: it only generates bitmap fonts. Those have been obsolete for decades (except, occasionally, on display devices). > Well, Metafont itself, is designed for this purpose. But, there are some other programs that can convert the font definition to vector form, for use with scalable PostScript and PDF formats, for example. One of them is Metapost, which is a derivative of Metafont. Google pulls up a vast number of articles on metafont to vector, for instance. Jon From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 28 12:22:11 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:22:11 -0500 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! Message-ID: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> Several years ago, Lyle Bickley began negotiations with S&H Computer Systems to release TSX-Plus (a 3rd party Multiuser Operating System for PDP-11's) as free software for personal use. As is often the case, this process can take a lot longer than one would expect. Once Lyle obtained an initial agreement from the owner of TSX-Plus, he then had to await the approval from S&H's Board of Directors. Initially, S&H chose to only release the source code listings for TSX-Plus (which are now on Bitsavers.org). Unfortunately, the machine readable source code itself had been accidentally lost when S&H changed PDP-11 computer systems in-house. Eventually, Lyle was able to obtain the original SMD hard drive from S&H containing the latest versions of TSX-Plus, and the layered products COBOL-Plus and RTSORT (and other software that remains private to S&H Computer Systems). He transferred the TSX-Plus, COBOL-Plus, and RTSORT files to an RL02 disk - and using S&H's proprietary licensing software created a "personal use, serialized version" of TSX-Plus. This version has ALL the capabilities and features of the commercially licensed version of TSX-Plus. Subsequently, Lyle was authorized to release this "Personal Use" TSX-Plus distribution only to individuals that he could vouch for as being non-commercial users. After another year or so, he was able to obtain the current agreement and license to make this "Personal Use" TSX-Plus distribution generally available for non-commercial use. Please note that TSX-Plus is NOT public domain software; S&H retains all rights including ownership. They have provided a free personal use license available through Bickley Consulting West. There is still a paid commercial use license available directly from S&H. We all owe a big "Thanks!" to Harry Sanders at S&H Computer Systems and his Board of Directors for making this release a reality for all vintage computer folks! Also, the hobby owes huge thanks to Lyle Bickley for tirelessly pursuing this for us all! I've always been a huge fan of TSX-Plus and I'm thrilled there's now a personal (hobbyist) license thanks to Lyle. The distribution is at http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org Best, J From cctalk at snarc.net Thu Apr 28 12:25:20 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:25:20 -0400 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <57224780.1050400@snarc.net> > We all owe a big "Thanks!" to Harry Sanders at S&H Computer Systems and his > Board of Directors for making this release a reality for all vintage > computer folks! Also, the hobby owes huge thanks to Lyle Bickley for > tirelessly pursuing this for us all! I've always been a huge fan of TSX-Plus > and I'm thrilled there's now a personal (hobbyist) license thanks to Lyle. Great work Lyle!! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 28 12:34:30 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:34:30 -0700 Subject: Unknown transistor repairing a TI990/5 power supply In-Reply-To: <263B19912A084762A1FE4B881C374E97@dellgx270> References: <263B19912A084762A1FE4B881C374E97@dellgx270> Message-ID: <572249A6.8000306@sydex.com> On 04/28/2016 02:45 AM, Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione Museo del Computer wrote: > I'm working at the power supply of a 990/5 minicomputer. The chassis > is a 6 slot version, with 20A power supply. After a few minutes of > working, the fuse blow and I found a transistor on the main power > supply board with collector in short circuit with emitter. The > transistor has TRW logo and is market with Texas part number > 996070-003, in addiction with the date code. I don't have a magic key to translate the house part number to something real, but if I were to guess, based on the location of the transistor, I suspect it's an NPN high frequency device. A good guess would be that a "universal" TV horizontal output transistor might be a good candidate. I've done that myself to old PSUs and it's worked well. Try, say, an NTE238 or 2SC1308K or similar. --Chuck From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Apr 28 12:43:06 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:43:06 -0700 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20160428104306.387b77bc@asrock.bcwi.net> On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:22:11 -0500 "Jay West" wrote: --snip-- > We all owe a big "Thanks!" to Harry Sanders at S&H Computer Systems > and his Board of Directors for making this release a reality for all > vintage computer folks! Also, the hobby owes huge thanks to Lyle > Bickley for tirelessly pursuing this for us all! I've always been a > huge fan of TSX-Plus and I'm thrilled there's now a personal > (hobbyist) license thanks to Lyle. > > The distribution is at http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org And a big "THANKS!" to Jay for creating the website and hosting the TSX-Plus distribution on classiccmp.org!!! Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 28 12:43:30 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 18:43:30 +0100 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: <9F89F4D0-5147-4931-9C53-C959C15FDD6F@comcast.net> References: <9F89F4D0-5147-4931-9C53-C959C15FDD6F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <42d2edee-be4e-feca-8f3c-e185e44960c4@btinternet.com> On 28/04/2016 17:18, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Apr 28, 2016, at 8:19 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> ... >> I'd like to recover the DEC fonts and have looked at several font creator/editors. >> >> Frankly they are dung. Every fancy curve there is but not a straight forward line and circle method of creating lower case characters >> as DEC did it. I do need the ability to enter (or import) the lower case characters using just circles and lines. > I just found FontForge, which is open source. A few minutes experimentation shows that it is quite happy to draw straight lines, including doing obvious stuff like line segments forced to be horizontal or vertical, or circles or ellipses. Bezier curves too, of course. > > paul > Oh I tried that one. Very powerful I'm sure but I could not get it to do anything. Got as far as loading an empty font and picked a letter o goes to some kind of blank edit screen, click along top menu nothing about lines or circles get to help and drop down menu. Click on help and it comes up with something about glyphs I don't want Egyptian writing so I give up R From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 28 12:51:03 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 18:51:03 +0100 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: <57224780.1050400@snarc.net> References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> <57224780.1050400@snarc.net> Message-ID: <09d91dbf-45a1-84f8-e40f-3eab3ec76292@btinternet.com> On 28/04/2016 18:25, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> We all owe a big "Thanks!" to Harry Sanders at S&H Computer Systems >> and his >> Board of Directors for making this release a reality for all vintage >> computer folks! Also, the hobby owes huge thanks to Lyle Bickley for >> tirelessly pursuing this for us all! I've always been a huge fan of >> TSX-Plus >> and I'm thrilled there's now a personal (hobbyist) license thanks to >> Lyle. > > Great work Lyle!! Excellent -- One minor point you need RT11 to run it I think. Rod From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Apr 28 12:55:50 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:55:50 -0700 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: <09d91dbf-45a1-84f8-e40f-3eab3ec76292@btinternet.com> References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> <57224780.1050400@snarc.net> <09d91dbf-45a1-84f8-e40f-3eab3ec76292@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20160428105550.5c330028@asrock.bcwi.net> On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 18:51:03 +0100 Rod Smallwood wrote: > On 28/04/2016 18:25, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> We all owe a big "Thanks!" to Harry Sanders at S&H Computer > >> Systems and his > >> Board of Directors for making this release a reality for all > >> vintage computer folks! Also, the hobby owes huge thanks to Lyle > >> Bickley for tirelessly pursuing this for us all! I've always been > >> a huge fan of TSX-Plus > >> and I'm thrilled there's now a personal (hobbyist) license thanks > >> to Lyle. > > > > Great work Lyle!! > Excellent -- One minor point you need RT11 to run it I think. See note #2 in the download page... Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 28 12:55:48 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:55:48 -0400 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: <42d2edee-be4e-feca-8f3c-e185e44960c4@btinternet.com> References: <9F89F4D0-5147-4931-9C53-C959C15FDD6F@comcast.net> <42d2edee-be4e-feca-8f3c-e185e44960c4@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 2016-04-28 1:43 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > On 28/04/2016 17:18, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Apr 28, 2016, at 8:19 AM, Rod >>> Smallwood wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> I'd like to recover the DEC fonts and have looked at several font >>> creator/editors. ... >> >> paul >> > Oh I tried that one. Very powerful I'm sure but I could not get it to > do anything. > Got as far as loading an empty font and picked a letter o > goes to some kind of blank edit screen, > click along top menu nothing about lines or circles get to help and drop > down menu. > Click on help and it comes up with something about glyphs > I don't want Egyptian writing so I give up A glyph is just a drawing of a specific character - applies to members of any font. Font editors do tend to have a learning curve. Here's another option found by googling: https://birdfont.org/ or https://glyphsapp.com/ which is commercial but has a 30 day trial... --Toby > > R > > > > > > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 28 12:57:10 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:57:10 -0500 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: <09d91dbf-45a1-84f8-e40f-3eab3ec76292@btinternet.com> References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> <57224780.1050400@snarc.net> <09d91dbf-45a1-84f8-e40f-3eab3ec76292@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <000701d1a177$62ee2750$28ca75f0$@classiccmp.org> Rod wrote... ----- Excellent -- One minor point you need RT11 to run it I think. ----- That is correct, and that is stated in the "Notes" on the distribution web page before you download it. For those not familiar with TSX-Plus, from a user standpoint - it's a multi-user version of RT-11. You start TSX+ running after RT11SJ boots, and then it basically replaces RT11 in memory but still uses a lot of the RT11 userland binaries for commands and such. J From schoedel at kw.igs.net Thu Apr 28 12:58:06 2016 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:58:06 -0400 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: <42d2edee-be4e-feca-8f3c-e185e44960c4@btinternet.com> References: <9F89F4D0-5147-4931-9C53-C959C15FDD6F@comcast.net> <42d2edee-be4e-feca-8f3c-e185e44960c4@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20160428175439.M21602@kw.igs.net> On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 18:43:30 +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote > On 28/04/2016 17:18, Paul Koning wrote: > > I just found FontForge, which is open source. A few minutes experimentation shows that it is quite happy to draw straight lines, including doing obvious stuff like line segments forced to be horizontal or vertical, or circles or ellipses. Bezier curves too, of course. > > Oh I tried that one. Very powerful I'm sure but I could not get it to > do anything. Fontforge went through a period after the original author retired when it was constantly broken. The version obtainable via http://fontforge.github.io/ should be better now (but I haven't used it lately). -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Thu Apr 28 09:52:32 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:52:32 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <201604281435.KAA29728@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <0df580d8285cdc5ff14348241a4c63d8@triadic.us> On 2016-04-28 10:44, Liam Proven wrote: > On 28 April 2016 at 16:35, Mouse wrote: >>>> But the marketing men got to it and ruined its security and >>>> elegance, to produce the lipstick-and-high-heels Windows XP. That >>>> version, insecure and flakey with its terrible bodged-in browser, >>>> that, of course, was the one that sold. >>> ???Consistent mediocrity, delivered on a large scale, is much >>> more profitable than anything on a small scale, no matter how >>> efficient it might be.??? >> >> Indeed. Ask any junk-food chain. >> >> The depressing (to me) part is that there seems to be a place for >> decent-quality restaurants in the same restaurant-food ecosystem that >> contains junk-food chains...but there doesn't seem to be the analog in >> the computer operating system ecosystem. > > Absolutely! This is *the* key question, really. > We get closer to that analog as time passes. The more Linux becomes the next Windows, the more people jump ship (mostly to FreeBSD). Gentoo Linux is my distro of choice simply because i can pick, choose, and compile everything i want for just about any arch. However, if i could choose any OS i would probably go with illumos. Unfortunately The man power needed to maintain the software repo is the biggest challenge when wanting to go you're own direction. I would say that it's the primary reason it seems like we're dining in a world of McDonald's and Steak Houses, but nothing in-between. >>>> Linux got nowhere until it copied the XP model. >> >> Only for corporate values of "nowhere". Considering it to be a >> failure >> because it wasn't grabbing "market" share, or because there weren't >> large companies involved, is to buy into the problem, defining success >> in monetary (or near-monetary) terms. >> >> I don't know what Linus's original vision for Linux was, so I don't >> know when (if ever) it was his idea of a success. But I would have >> called it a success much earlier, and, indeed, I would be tempted to >> say it failed _when_ it "copied the XP model" and "got somewhere", >> because that's when it lost the benefits early versions brought. > > OK, a very fair point. Linux was indeed popular and widely-used in the > FOSS world, and among Unix types. > > But it still took many years for Canonical's Bug #0 to be closed. > > I'd argue 2 things helped achieve that. > > First, Ubuntu made Debian usable by mortals. I ran SuSE before Warty > Warthog, but I wasn't that happy with it. It was merely the > least-worst option since Caldera self-immolated. > > Ubuntu achieved its goal, which, reading between the lines, was > basically "a Linux distro simple enough that the average Windows power > user will be able to install it and get useful work done using it, > without extras or tweaking". > > AIUI Ubuntu today is a bit over half of Linux desktop usage, as best > as anyone can estimate this. I suspect that means that actually, > Ubuntu has (probably quite a lot more than) doubled desktop Linux > usage, and it's forced all the other distros to up their game. > (Actually it's forced a lot of them out of the game, which is sad, but > probably inevitable.) > > I also gather that it is now strongly dominant in cloud/VM deployments. > > Secondly, Android. Android is probably something like 99% of > non-server/embedded Linux usage. In terms of Linuxes that ordinary > people actually directly interact with -- excluding washing machines, > ATMs, whatever -- Android is, I strongly suspect, *it* and everything > else is a rounding error. > >> I can't help wondering how many people use Linux because "Open Source" >> but have never once even tried to build anything from source. > > Some, certainly. > Indeed, but more end users help drive demand for better software. Eventually someone will get frustrated a build a better tool or improve and existing one. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 28 13:02:51 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:02:51 +0100 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: <000701d1a177$62ee2750$28ca75f0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> <57224780.1050400@snarc.net> <09d91dbf-45a1-84f8-e40f-3eab3ec76292@btinternet.com> <000701d1a177$62ee2750$28ca75f0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 28/04/2016 18:57, Jay West wrote: > Rod wrote... > ----- > Excellent -- One minor point you need RT11 to run it I think. > ----- > > That is correct, and that is stated in the "Notes" on the distribution web > page before you download it. > > For those not familiar with TSX-Plus, from a user standpoint - it's a > multi-user version of RT-11. You start TSX+ running after RT11SJ boots, and > then it basically replaces RT11 in memory but still uses a lot of the RT11 > userland binaries for commands and such. > > J > > So we need a license and distribution of RT11 is that right? R From lars at nocrew.org Thu Apr 28 13:13:36 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 20:13:36 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: (Liam Proven's message of "Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:59:53 +0200") References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <864malwqi7.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Liam Proven writes: > the last iterations of Genera ran on Tru64 on Alphas, but under an > emulator. The emulator has been ported to Linux and x86-64. http://www.cliki.net/VLM_on_Linux From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Apr 28 13:48:21 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 18:48:21 +0000 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED17E10@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Liam Proven Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 6:39 AM BTW, an expansion for someone who missed a humorous point very early on: "FTHI" means "For the humour-impaired", and was followed by numerous smilicons. > On 27 April 2016 at 20:15, Swift Griggs > wrote: >> All "you guys" seemed to start out with math or EE background and filling >> in the CS parts seems to be trivial for you. I look up to your generation, >> believe it or not. > I was an undergrad biologist. :-) I've never studied CS. > But I think you have a point. I received undergraduate and graduate degrees in historical linguistics; all my computer science background is due to my own self-directed study--and I do mean study. I've read any number of primary papers and books in the field, since that study made me better at using computers for what I really wanted to do. I've implemented compilers, and even my own Lisp interpreter, just for the fun of it. I am not one of the Lisp gods. The closest I came was interviewing for a systems programming job at the MIT AI Lab (dinner with Pat Winston at O'Hare one late fall evening when he had a layover). I went to work at Stanford the next year. I studied Lisp from the ground up: Read the Weisman LISP 1.5 book, read the LISP 1.5 Primer by McCarthy et al., read the sources to Portable Standard Lisp and MDL (and the MDL books from MIT), read Abelson&Sussman and the Common Lisp book (1st ed.). At the same time, I read many papers in artificial intelligence of the 1970s and early 1980s, most interested in natural language processing and knowledge representation. I've never done anything for money with either my degrees or my AI studies. I've supported myself and my wife as a systems programmer on IBM and DEC big iron, the latter eventually leading directly to working at the museum. As you might imagine, I'm a good bit older than either of you; I started at university (since you both want to equate "college" with "trade school"; in the US, we usually say "go to college" even if the institution grants higher degrees as well) before Liam was born. I was married and in grad school by the time Swift came along. I'm sorry that Swift took amiss my intended humor, but it's sparked an interesting long thread. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From useddec at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 13:57:40 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:57:40 -0500 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Fantastic!! Many thanks to Lyle, Jay, and S H!!! On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Jay West wrote: > Several years ago, Lyle Bickley began negotiations with S&H Computer > Systems > to release TSX-Plus (a 3rd party Multiuser Operating System for PDP-11's) > as > free software for personal use. As is often the case, this process can take > a lot longer than one would expect. > > Once Lyle obtained an initial agreement from the owner of TSX-Plus, he then > had to await the approval from S&H's Board of Directors. Initially, S&H > chose to only release the source code listings for TSX-Plus (which are now > on Bitsavers.org). Unfortunately, the machine readable source code itself > had been accidentally lost when S&H changed PDP-11 computer systems > in-house. > > Eventually, Lyle was able to obtain the original SMD hard drive from S&H > containing the latest versions of TSX-Plus, and the layered products > COBOL-Plus and RTSORT (and other software that remains private to S&H > Computer Systems). He transferred the TSX-Plus, COBOL-Plus, and RTSORT > files > to an RL02 disk - and using S&H's proprietary licensing software created a > "personal use, serialized version" of TSX-Plus. This version has ALL the > capabilities and features of the commercially licensed version of TSX-Plus. > > Subsequently, Lyle was authorized to release this "Personal Use" TSX-Plus > distribution only to individuals that he could vouch for as being > non-commercial users. > > After another year or so, he was able to obtain the current agreement and > license to make this "Personal Use" TSX-Plus distribution generally > available for non-commercial use. > > Please note that TSX-Plus is NOT public domain software; S&H retains all > rights including ownership. They have provided a free personal use license > available through Bickley Consulting West. There is still a paid commercial > use license available directly from S&H. > > We all owe a big "Thanks!" to Harry Sanders at S&H Computer Systems and his > Board of Directors for making this release a reality for all vintage > computer folks! Also, the hobby owes huge thanks to Lyle Bickley for > tirelessly pursuing this for us all! I've always been a huge fan of > TSX-Plus > and I'm thrilled there's now a personal (hobbyist) license thanks to Lyle. > > The distribution is at http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org > > Best, > > J > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 28 14:11:56 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:11:56 -0700 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: This is officially the best news I?ve had this week. Thanks Lyle and Jay both! Yay! Software and documentation upgrade for my PDP-11/73! :-) When I have time. :-( Zane From lists at loomcom.com Thu Apr 28 14:18:09 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 14:18:09 -0500 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED17E10@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED17E10@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20160428191809.GB9447@loomcom.com> * On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 06:48:21PM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: > I received undergraduate and graduate degrees in historical linguistics; (!!!) It's good to see Linguist here. While I never did receive my degree, linguistics was my major, and historical linguistics was my focus of study. All of my understanding of computers was, likewise, self-study. I took precisely two CS courses in college, and flunked out of one of them. I got better. -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 14:39:02 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:39:02 -0400 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > This is officially the best news I?ve had this week. Thanks Lyle and Jay > both! > > Yay! Software and documentation upgrade for my PDP-11/73! :-) When I > have time. :-( > > Zane > > > > Wonder if this will work on 11/40 with 96K -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From guy at cuillin.org.uk Thu Apr 28 14:51:48 2016 From: guy at cuillin.org.uk (Guy Dawson) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 20:51:48 +0100 Subject: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX In-Reply-To: <57213A98.4010601@gmail.com> References: <57178ACC.9090008@telegraphics.com.au> <571791EF.1090208@dunnington.plus.com> <57179990.3090902@telegraphics.com.au> <5717A108.8070206@dunnington.plus.com> <571E9EE3.2070607@gmail.com> <57213A98.4010601@gmail.com> Message-ID: It was many many hundreds of pounds. ?499 comes to mind but that might be wishful thinking! There was various bits of publicity on the thing and Acorn had a shop in Covent Garden and about once a month I'd go down and ask them. I think they must have said yes one day! On 27 April 2016 at 23:18, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/26/2016 01:33 PM, Guy Dawson wrote: > >> I bought a 32016 Cambridge Coprocessor back in the day. It's in my loft. >> > > Oh, so it was you! ;-) I'll try and file that away in my brain so I > remember it in future... do you happen to remember how much it cost? (And > were they advertized for sale somewhere, or did you have to call up Acorn > and ask?) > > cheers > > Jules > > -- 4.4 > 5.4 From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 28 14:58:11 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 14:58:11 -0500 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001c01d1a188$4b0bbe20$e1233a60$@classiccmp.org> Bill wrote... ---- Wonder if this will work on 11/40 with 96K ---- ISTR it requires 96kW minimum and 128kW recommended. Installation guide, section 2.3, page 5&6 (pdf file pages 9-10) will tell... J From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 28 14:56:41 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 20:56:41 +0100 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <57226AF9.3040202@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/04/2016 18:22, Jay West wrote: > Several years ago, Lyle Bickley began negotiations with S&H Computer Systems > to release TSX-Plus > The distribution is at http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org Well done, Lyle. Thank you for your effort, and thanks too to the people at S&H. This is great news. And thank you, Jay, for hosting it. -- Pete From jsw at ieee.org Thu Apr 28 15:24:59 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:24:59 -0500 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: <57224780.1050400@snarc.net> References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> <57224780.1050400@snarc.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 28, 2016, at 12:25 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> We all owe a big "Thanks!" to Harry Sanders at S&H Computer Systems and his >> Board of Directors for making this release a reality for all vintage >> computer folks! Also, the hobby owes huge thanks to Lyle Bickley for >> tirelessly pursuing this for us all! I've always been a huge fan of TSX-Plus >> and I'm thrilled there's now a personal (hobbyist) license thanks to Lyle. Thank you Lyle and S&H for making this possible. Terrific news! From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 16:19:20 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 14:19:20 -0700 Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston In-Reply-To: <000c01d1a150$ee4b1a50$cae14ef0$@classiccmp.org> References: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> <002501d1a088$74c24460$5e46cd20$@classiccmp.org> <98b2c7a1-8b60-096d-b945-2a1acc1bfed9@bitsavers.org> <000c01d1a150$ee4b1a50$cae14ef0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: It addition to all of the resources that were directly available through http://www.hpmuseum.net/ there were also resources available if you asked. I wanted a copy of some HP-UX installation CD images for my 9000/382 and Jon was happy to provide those to me after sending him an email. His loss is a significant blow to the community. I hope all of the dedicated effort he put into this is maintained somehow and isn't also lost. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 16:58:34 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 17:58:34 -0400 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Excellent news. Thank you for making this happen. -- Will On Apr 28, 2016 1:22 PM, "Jay West" wrote: > > Several years ago, Lyle Bickley began negotiations with S&H Computer Systems > to release TSX-Plus (a 3rd party Multiuser Operating System for PDP-11's) as > free software for personal use. As is often the case, this process can take > a lot longer than one would expect. > > Once Lyle obtained an initial agreement from the owner of TSX-Plus, he then > had to await the approval from S&H's Board of Directors. Initially, S&H > chose to only release the source code listings for TSX-Plus (which are now > on Bitsavers.org). Unfortunately, the machine readable source code itself > had been accidentally lost when S&H changed PDP-11 computer systems > in-house. > > Eventually, Lyle was able to obtain the original SMD hard drive from S&H > containing the latest versions of TSX-Plus, and the layered products > COBOL-Plus and RTSORT (and other software that remains private to S&H > Computer Systems). He transferred the TSX-Plus, COBOL-Plus, and RTSORT files > to an RL02 disk - and using S&H's proprietary licensing software created a > "personal use, serialized version" of TSX-Plus. This version has ALL the > capabilities and features of the commercially licensed version of TSX-Plus. > > Subsequently, Lyle was authorized to release this "Personal Use" TSX-Plus > distribution only to individuals that he could vouch for as being > non-commercial users. > > After another year or so, he was able to obtain the current agreement and > license to make this "Personal Use" TSX-Plus distribution generally > available for non-commercial use. > > Please note that TSX-Plus is NOT public domain software; S&H retains all > rights including ownership. They have provided a free personal use license > available through Bickley Consulting West. There is still a paid commercial > use license available directly from S&H. > > We all owe a big "Thanks!" to Harry Sanders at S&H Computer Systems and his > Board of Directors for making this release a reality for all vintage > computer folks! Also, the hobby owes huge thanks to Lyle Bickley for > tirelessly pursuing this for us all! I've always been a huge fan of TSX-Plus > and I'm thrilled there's now a personal (hobbyist) license thanks to Lyle. > > The distribution is at http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org > > Best, > > J > > From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 17:41:08 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 00:41:08 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <0df580d8285cdc5ff14348241a4c63d8@triadic.us> References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <201604281435.KAA29728@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0df580d8285cdc5ff14348241a4c63d8@triadic.us> Message-ID: On 28 April 2016 at 16:52, wrote: > On 2016-04-28 10:44, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> On 28 April 2016 at 16:35, Mouse wrote: >>> The depressing (to me) part is that there seems to be a place for >>> decent-quality restaurants in the same restaurant-food ecosystem that >>> contains junk-food chains...but there doesn't seem to be the analog in >>> the computer operating system ecosystem. >> >> Absolutely! This is *the* key question, really. > > We get closer to that analog as time passes. The more Linux becomes the next > Windows, the more people jump ship (mostly to FreeBSD). That's true, and I am choosing to interpret it as an encouraging sign. I have nothing against systemd -- I have looked into it and I think I more or less grasp both the pros and the antis. I have no horse in the race; whereas I used to play around with init scripts and whatnot, mostly, that was decades ago now and these days, for my own use, I favour anything which "just works". Which is why I'm tying on a (cheap, used) Mac, on which I mostly run FOSS and freeware. > Gentoo Linux is my > distro of choice simply because i can pick, choose, and compile everything i > want for just about any arch. I tried it years ago. I found it a very unpleasant experience, and went to some communities, both online and real-world, to ask for guidance. One of my questions was "how can I choose a simpler init? I don't like SysV init, I prefer the BSD one. How do I switch?" At first they didn't understand the question at all. When I got it across, the reaction was incredulity: "why on Earth would you want to do that?!" I could tweak the compile flags and optimisation of KDE, but not change the init. That's not customisation in my book: that's yak-shaving, painting the bike shed a new colour. Basically pointless; I wanted more profound change, and Gentoo didn't offer it and the Gentoo community couldn't grasp /why/ I'd want to change something so profound that it was a given, an axiom, a fundamental. So I gave up on it before I even had a fully-working system. > However, if i could choose any OS i would > probably go with illumos. Last time I tried, probably one of the last versions of OpenSolaris, it couldn't understand either my chipset-integrated Ethernet port /or/ the on-motherboard 3rd party Ethernet. So I didn't get very far; it worked, but I couldn't get online. > Unfortunately The man power needed to maintain the > software repo is the biggest challenge when wanting to go you're own > direction. I would say that it's the primary reason it seems like we're > dining in a world of McDonald's and Steak Houses, but nothing in-between. Well, perhaps. But I'm interested in something *way* more different than just a different Unix. I like to play with things like Haiku, AROS, Syllable, Morphos. Interesting, but none are complete enough for me to work in them, sadly. I'm intrigued by projects like Movitz, Interim, TempleOS -- the /really/ different stuff. But all are prototypes, demos, so dramatically limited they can't be /used/ yet. I lack the skills to make Plan 9 or Minix 3 do anything useful. And I read about now-dead historical OSes such as Taos (later Intent), which I played with all-too-briefly at an Acorn World show about 20y ago, or Parhelion's HeliOS for Transputer machines. Nothing even _remotely_ like them exists any more. >>> I can't help wondering how many people use Linux because "Open Source" >>> but have never once even tried to build anything from source. >> >> Some, certainly. > > Indeed, but more end users help drive demand for better software. Eventually > someone will get frustrated a build a better tool or improve and existing > one. Here's hoping. ISTM that what it's actually leading to is polishing the same turds. (OK, "turd" is grossly unfair, I actually hugely admire Linux, but I hope my general meaning is clear.) We are continuing to refine and tweak a 1970s-style OS -- a technologically conservative monolithic Unix. FOSS Unix hasn't even caught up with 1990s style Unix design yet, the early microkernel ones like NeXTstep or OSF/1, AKA Digital UNIX. It's roughly 2 decades behind the times. That's what Minix 3 is trying to fix, of course. And commercial Unix in general has totally failed to pick up the ideas of even Plan 9 -- which I think of as Unix Version 2.0: "even more things are files now, and the kernel is networking aware". Inferno -- Plan 9 Version 2.0, or perhaps Unix Version 3.0: "Like Plan 9, But Now We Have A Friendlier GUI And Everything's Processor-Independent", AKA "it's time, let's move on from C" -- is languishing, AFAICS. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 28 17:52:51 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:52:51 -0600 Subject: Abstraction levels and tool evolution, versus bugs - Re: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427185010.CFAB218C127@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4c686d1d-8905-74d4-a03f-bf9ba4507c05@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/27/2016 4:50 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Toby Thain wrote: > I stick with C because I don't want (much) more abstraction than it offers > for the applications I write or maintain. > How ever hardware design is still knowledge needed, with all the strange Caches and logic flow in the new cpu's to have decent optimization in the source language. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 28 18:23:49 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 17:23:49 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <2c0f384c-2db0-cfe4-288e-b89795aa78ca@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/28/2016 7:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 27 April 2016 at 22:13, Sean Conner wrote: >> It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: >>> On 26 April 2016 at 16:41, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>> When I was playing with home micros (mainly Sinclair and Amstrad; the >>> American stuff was just too expensive for Brits in the early-to-mid >>> 1980s), the culture was that Real Men programmed in assembler and the >>> main battle was Z80 versus 6502, with a few weirdos saying that 6809 >>> was better than either. BASIC was the language for beginners, and a >>> few weirdos maintained that Forth was better. >> >> The 6908 *is* better than either the Z80 or the 6502 (yes, I'm one of >> *those* 8-) > > Hurrah! :-D > But alas still only 16 bit addressing. OS/9 was nice once you got to level 2 and a nice Hard-drive. Most of use minons never even heard about the 68000 versions sadly. Ben. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Apr 28 19:19:32 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 17:19:32 -0700 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! Message-ID: <20160428171932.0b5cf76c@asrock.bcwi.net> Hi All, Hopefully you all read in the "Notes" (and Jay's and my comments) that TSX-Plus requires RT-11 as a prerequisite. RT-11 is readily available all over the Internet. It is also available at on the classiccmp server at http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/ Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From scaron at diablonet.net Thu Apr 28 19:45:04 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 20:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Erik Baigar wrote: > > On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Caron wrote: > >> I don't have any ROLM computers (not that I wouldn't love one) but I am >> proud to say that I have a complete ROLM SCBX 8000. I've tried to take some >> pictures and compile some information on my personal site: >> >> http://wildflower.diablonet.net/~scaron/rolmfieldguide/index.html > > Wow, that is a lot of PCBs to handle the telephone stuff! > Thanks for sharing the pictures - also interesting to see, > that they used a Z80 in there but never used microprocessors > in their MIL computers (even the later ones!)... > > As a project you could design a VoIP PCB for the SCBX ;-) > > Erik. > You're welcome! Mine is actually a relatively small example. It has 84 PCBs in total across six shelves and two conjoined racks with a little disk and control panel between them. If you've seen a picture of a lowboy PDP 11/60 ... I always use that as something to relate the general dimensions. The ROLM is maybe a little taller. I need to post some pictures of the complete system and rack. I would love to get the ROLM running someday and get it hooked up to a VoIP network... Another hobby of mine is collecting PBX systems and telephones and I've already done this for a Definity as well as a Nortel M1 and I have no doubt that the same could be done for the CBX [1]. The CBX (eventually) supported DS1 interfaces ... which would IMO be the coolest way to connect the CBX to a media gateway ... but one day once I get the PBX running, I should be able to get it routing calls again with something like a Cisco box acting as an external media gateway ... while designing a media gateway to sit on the ROLMbus would be a heck of a project ;) I find the design of the CBX really interesting. IMO, their appearance belies that ROLM was a computer vendor first a a phone equipment maker second. Not in a perjorative sense, just stylistically. Comparing them against boards from WECo/ATT/Lucent/Avaya, Nortel and Harris. Best, Sean [1] http://www.ckts.info From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 28 19:49:24 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:49:24 -0500 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001d1a1b0$fa078d50$ee16a7f0$@classiccmp.org> Thanks are also due to Dennis Boone, who wrote the CGI code for the tsxplus download site. THANKS DENNIS! J From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 20:23:29 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:23:29 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED17E10@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED17E10@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Rich Alderson wrote: > I received undergraduate and graduate degrees in historical linguistics; That is an interesting field of study. I don't really understand a lick of it (talk about jargon! nobody beats linguists) but it's neat. As academic fields go, I'd do operations research if I ever went back. Those guys seem to be the brusin' bad dudes of math when it comes to getting things done. > all my computer science background is due to my own self-directed > study--and I do mean study. I've read any number of primary papers and > books in the field, since that study made me better at using computers > for what I really wanted to do. I've read some Dijkstra, Knuth, Jacob Ziv, and some stuff by David Wheeler, Martin Hellman, and a few others. The math for the last three is pretty well over my head but I got about 80%. What I read is mostly for implementation and "applied" reasons, but it's still interesting. > I've implemented compilers, and even my own Lisp interpreter, just for > the fun of it. Making compilers is fun. I've done it a couple of times using Jack Crenshaw's old papers (and he quotes Chomsky!). The lexical scanning tools are a lot better, now though. It's actually not too bad of an exercise if you don't have to extend or maintain the language afterwards. :-) > As you might imagine, I'm a good bit older than either of you; I started > at university (since you both want to equate "college" with "trade > school"; in the US, we usually say "go to college" even if the > institution grants higher degrees as well) It just seems like using the world "college" irritated fewer people when I implied that training & education were not mutually exclusive. It feels like some folks really recoil at that idea for universities. I just wonder how they apply that same principle to law school, nursing, metallurgy, etc... All (at least) 4 year degrees from universities where you'd darn well better come out with some training, or you are going to be in something of a pickle (failing the bar, losing your license, burning your face off, etc..). Maybe it's only for CS, since that's all we've mostly been talking about, and that's fair. > before Liam was born. I was married and in grad school by the time > Swift came along. I was born in 75, graduated (high school) in 1993, and dropped out of college in 1998. > I'm sorry that Swift took amiss my intended humor, but it's sparked an > interesting long thread. Ah, did I? Sorry about that. I'm always game for a good joke. -Swift From chd at chdickman.com Thu Apr 28 20:50:48 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 21:50:48 -0400 Subject: basic switch lubricant Message-ID: I have been cleaning a PDP-8/e front panel and some of the switches are not as free as others. The switches are simple slider basic switches. I have taken similar switches apart and noticed that there is a brown/red grease on the contacts. Any suggestions on the proper grease for a low voltage contact. Chuck From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 20:52:38 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:52:38 -0600 (MDT) Subject: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160428032850.9911DAB3CE7FC@bart0113.email.locaweb.com.br> <474A9480-FD57-4422-93D5-9BD0471ED7A3@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Ben Sinclair wrote: > it and Apple's SDKs felt, but appreciate a lot of that now. I've heard they have a lot of boilerplate code, but it sounds like there is some reason to it, if you got cozy with it. > I'm doing some embedded C++ work right now too, and often wish I could > use Objective-C there. I haven't done any C++ in years though, and have > found C++11 added some nice things. Both C++11 and C11 really have me excited. It's a kick in the butt to the compiler makers. Gimme that sugar! I'm bucking for some polymorphism for C, next. IMHO, that'd be the icing on the cake for C. I don't want to bolt on anything else, just let me define the same function twice with two different parameter lists and I'll be one happy dude. > I'll try whatever is new and fun though, Same here. I'll do a tutorial or read a book for anything even if I dont' do much with it. Hehe, this might make you laugh, but my last two were AREXX (using AROS) and FORTRAN. I'm pissed at myself for not learning AREXX back when the Amiga was kickin'. FORTRAN was a mind trip. I felt it had some kind of relation to Pascal (just certain things). It made me want to go out and do some X-Ray crystallography just so I could write me some applicable FORTRAN code, hehe. > and I've been enjoying Swift (the language!) quite a bit. har har! Well, this is a not the first time my name has got me into trouble. You should hear when I went to a local meetup where folks were talking about the object store in openstack (called "Swift" also). Someone was cussin' it and saying that they made one mistake and blew up their object store. I was confused and I heard my name all around me. It was like an episode of the Twilight Zone. FYI, since everyone asks, Swift is my real name. My grandfather, Swift Lindley was born during the 30's when my great grandparents were so poor they couldn't pay attention. They had some sick scrawny cattle to sell and nobody would buy them. My great grandfather took them to a rail station near Pampa, Texas where they'd load up cattle to send on to Colorado and Wyoming to butcher and so forth. Still, nobody wanted to buy his sub-par stock. Meanwhile, unknown to him, my great grandmother had gone into labor and was giving birth about two weeks early. So, my great gramps runs into this cat named "Theodore Swift" and his crew (he was rich). He said he'd buy the cows since another deal had fallen threw and he wanted the train completely full. So, after this stroke of luck, my forefather came home victorious to find my great grandmother had given birth to a son. The first thing she asked him when he came home was "What will you name your son?" The story goes that he stood for a minute, smiled, and said "Swift" .... then of course I just got it as a hand-me-down from my moms' side. :-) -Swift From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 21:06:31 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 22:06:31 -0400 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: <572242DE.1020209@pico-systems.com> References: <57222CFD.9050606@pico-systems.com> <572242DE.1020209@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 28 April 2016 at 13:05, Jon Elson wrote: > That should be available for most Linux distros. You should also be able to > get it on Windows, but might be a bit harder to find. > I believe the current easiest to get up and running TeX/LaTeX solution for Windows is MikTeX. I don't know if it comes with the METAFONT utilities for creating a font though. Then again I haven't looked too hard since it has xeLaTeX which means "balls to it, I'm using OpenType!" (And there was much rejoicing, as Computer Modern was replaced by Adobe Garamond Premier Pro.) But I digress. Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 28 21:16:36 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:16:36 -0700 Subject: basic switch lubricant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5722C404.9090701@sydex.com> On 04/28/2016 06:50 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > I have been cleaning a PDP-8/e front panel and some of the switches > are not as free as others. The switches are simple slider basic > switches. I have taken similar switches apart and noticed that there > is a brown/red grease on the contacts. > > Any suggestions on the proper grease for a low voltage contact. Chuck: I'd use the same thing that I use on automotive contacts--what's referred to as "dielectric grease". Available in the auto section of almost any big-box store. Comes in a tube, is colorless and a bit translucent. --other Chuck From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Apr 28 21:20:09 2016 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:20:09 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> On 4/28/16 17:45, Sean Caron wrote: [big snip] > I find the design of the CBX really interesting. IMO, their appearance > belies that ROLM was a computer vendor first a a phone equipment maker > second. Not in a perjorative sense, just stylistically. Comparing them > against boards from WECo/ATT/Lucent/Avaya, Nortel and Harris. I was a staff engineer at ROLM MSC between '82 - '86. By that time by any reasonable measure MSC and telecomm were two utterly different companies that happened to have common parentage; technology cross-over between the divisions was for all practical purposes nonexistent (although we did have the occasional employee move between divisions, particularly after the IBM debacle) -- but it certainly seems that experience building stuff on the MSC side informed *some* of the early design decisions on the telcom side. IIRC the most interesting thing about the CBX was that it could do so much with so little hardware (relative to other switches of the time) thanks to TDM of the 12-bit bus through the "connection table", which was a 384 slot recirculating command buffer that drove the codecs, dial tone generators, tone decoders, ring generators and the like. Basically the CPU would schedule the sender and receiver for the bus by dropping commands into two parallel queues (one for transmit, one for receive), so there was no need for bus request or arbitration logic and yet the CPU could be slow, as the sequencer would just advance through the buffer every 83usec processing the commands that it found. It was a pretty clever way of substituting DRAM for bus control logic while reducing processor requirements. MSC was effectively the alpha site for new builds and new hardware, and we saw failures that at times left us without reliable phones for a day or two. One of the more interesting was when the switch refused to honor extension status changes and instead entertained itself by ringing each extension *once* in ascending order, then repeating. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Apr 28 21:42:04 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 22:42:04 -0400 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: <20160428104306.387b77bc@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> <20160428104306.387b77bc@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <5722C9FC.6060106@compsys.to> >Lyle Bickley wrote: >>On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:22:11 -0500 "Jay West" wrote: > >--snip-- > >>We all owe a big "Thanks!" to Harry Sanders at S&H Computer Systems >>and his Board of Directors for making this release a reality for all >>vintage computer folks! Also, the hobby owes huge thanks to Lyle >>Bickley for tirelessly pursuing this for us all! I've always been a >>huge fan of TSX-Plus and I'm thrilled there's now a personal >>(hobbyist) license thanks to Lyle. >> >>The distribution is at http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org >> >> > >And a big "THANKS!" to Jay for creating the website and hosting the >TSX-Plus distribution on classiccmp.org!!! > >Cheers, >Lyle > > I am extremely pleased to see that hobby users may now use TSX-Plus without charge. The PDP-11 hobby community has been waiting a long time. It is very gratifying that the situation for the hobby community has finally been resolved. Many thanks to both Jay and Lyle and appreciation to Harry Sanders and the Board of Directors at S&H. Jerome Fine From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Apr 28 22:51:27 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 20:51:27 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <33F7D728-2F36-433C-809F-F8D4E928AC5F@eschatologist.net> On Apr 25, 2016, at 7:38 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > And you do know what Apple MacOS was originally written in, don't you? The original Macintosh System Software was almost entirely M68000 assembly language. There were a couple parts of the original System Software that were written in Pascal, but by and large the space constraints of the 64KB ROMs and the 400KB floppy and the desire to eke every last cycle of performance out of the 8MHz CPU led to pervasive use of assembly. The APIs were defined in terms of both Pascal and assembly, which is what leads people to think that it was written in Pascal. Of course as time went on, there were pieces added and rewritten that were in Pascal, C, C++, etc. But if you worked on the classic Mac OS chances were you?d need to work in 68K assembly at some point. Fortunately the 68K had a great instruction set so its assembly wound up being effectively a high-level language. While I generally preferred to install Jasik?s ?The Debugger? to do source-level debugging at any level, a huge number of people just used MacsBug for everything, because looking at a disassembly was pretty much equivalent to looking at sources. -- Chris From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Apr 28 22:58:18 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 23:58:18 -0400 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: <09d91dbf-45a1-84f8-e40f-3eab3ec76292@btinternet.com> References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> <57224780.1050400@snarc.net> <09d91dbf-45a1-84f8-e40f-3eab3ec76292@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5722DBDA.1080001@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >On 28/04/2016 18:25, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> We all owe a big "Thanks!" to Harry Sanders at S&H Computer Systems >>> and his >>> Board of Directors for making this release a reality for all vintage >>> computer folks! Also, the hobby owes huge thanks to Lyle Bickley for >>> tirelessly pursuing this for us all! I've always been a huge fan of >>> TSX-Plus >>> and I'm thrilled there's now a personal (hobbyist) license thanks to >>> Lyle. >> >> Great work Lyle!! > > Excellent -- One minor point you need RT11 to run it I think. At the present time, RT-11 is used in running TSX-Plus in three ways: (a) To boot TSX-Plus, either it is usual to initiate TSX.SAV via one of the UnMapped RT-11 monitors such as RT11SJ or RT11FB since most, probably all, Mapped RT-11 monitors are too large. (b) Certain RT-11 utilities such as DIR.SAV and PIP.SAV are often used in addition to other RT-11 programs such as MACRO.SAV to accomplish goals under TSX-Plus which S&H did not write. (c) Many of the TSX-Plus device drivers were originally RT-11 device drivers modified to conform to TSX-Plus requirements. It is probably (c) that is actually the reason that RT-11 is needed to run TSX-Plus since S&H could have managed to write the boot code in addition to the RT-11 programs that are used. But as long as an RT-11 license was a pre-requisite to run TSX-Plus, there really was no need to also write all of the device drivers from scratch as well. For the actual situation, as long as RT-11 was already present, the straight forward solution was the one used. If my comments are incorrect, it would be appreciated if someone could provide the actual information. Jerome Fine From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 00:41:00 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 06:41:00 +0100 Subject: Lyle scores a WIN for our hobby! In-Reply-To: <5722DBDA.1080001@compsys.to> References: <000601d1a172$7feb8460$7fc28d20$@classiccmp.org> <57224780.1050400@snarc.net> <09d91dbf-45a1-84f8-e40f-3eab3ec76292@btinternet.com> <5722DBDA.1080001@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 29/04/2016 04:58, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> >On 28/04/2016 18:25, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>>> We all owe a big "Thanks!" to Harry Sanders at S&H Computer Systems >>>> and his >>>> Board of Directors for making this release a reality for all vintage >>>> computer folks! Also, the hobby owes huge thanks to Lyle Bickley for >>>> tirelessly pursuing this for us all! I've always been a huge fan of >>>> TSX-Plus >>>> and I'm thrilled there's now a personal (hobbyist) license thanks >>>> to Lyle. >>> >>> Great work Lyle!! >> >> Excellent -- One minor point you need RT11 to run it I think. > > At the present time, RT-11 is used in running TSX-Plus in three ways: > > (a) To boot TSX-Plus, either it is usual to initiate TSX.SAV via one > of the > UnMapped RT-11 monitors such as RT11SJ or RT11FB since most, > probably all, Mapped RT-11 monitors are too large. > > (b) Certain RT-11 utilities such as DIR.SAV and PIP.SAV are often > used in > addition to other RT-11 programs such as MACRO.SAV to accomplish > goals under TSX-Plus which S&H did not write. > > (c) Many of the TSX-Plus device drivers were originally RT-11 device > drivers > modified to conform to TSX-Plus requirements. > > It is probably (c) that is actually the reason that RT-11 is needed to > run > TSX-Plus since S&H could have managed to write the boot code in > addition to the RT-11 programs that are used. But as long as an RT-11 > license was a pre-requisite to run TSX-Plus, there really was no need to > also write all of the device drivers from scratch as well. For the > actual > situation, as long as RT-11 was already present, the straight forward > solution was the one used. > > If my comments are incorrect, it would be appreciated if someone could > provide the actual information. > > Jerome Fine I can remember sitting in the training room at digital in Parker Street (HQ had moved out of the mill by then) in November 1973 and doing the RT11 course. It was included in my new hire training (six weeks in the US) I was a bit distracted as one of girls running the course came in and sought out non-US hires and gave us a 50 dollar bill each. I asked what that was about. Cost of living allowance because the US was considered to be higher. She did that every day for the rest of the course, except Fridays when you got 150 dollars. We had already had a big expense advance before leaving the UK. When I got back I duly worked out all my US expenses including the 50dollars and presented them to my new boss. There was a big surplus and I was all ready to return it. He laughed and said full marks for honesty but we are are a cost center and cant take money back in. Keep it. He then endorsed my copy of the expense sheet "return of excess declined - employee to retain" Happy days!! Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From scaron at diablonet.net Fri Apr 29 00:45:52 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 01:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: > > > On 4/28/16 17:45, Sean Caron wrote: > > [big snip] > >> I find the design of the CBX really interesting. IMO, their appearance >> belies that ROLM was a computer vendor first a a phone equipment maker >> second. Not in a perjorative sense, just stylistically. Comparing them >> against boards from WECo/ATT/Lucent/Avaya, Nortel and Harris. > > I was a staff engineer at ROLM MSC between '82 - '86. By that time by > any reasonable measure MSC and telecomm were two utterly different > companies that happened to have common parentage; technology cross-over > between the divisions was for all practical purposes nonexistent > (although we did have the occasional employee move between divisions, > particularly after the IBM debacle) -- but it certainly seems that > experience building stuff on the MSC side informed *some* of the early > design decisions on the telcom side. > Very cool, thanks for the perspective. My understanding was that the profits on the mil-spec computers side bankrolled the entry into the PBX market but I was never clear on how much overlap there was between the two divisions. Any awareness if the common control of the CBX is in any way architecturally related to the DG Nova? It seems like it would be advantageous to leverage the experience building mil-spec Nova processors on the other side of the business, and looking at the hardware, it is clear the CBX is a 16-bit machine. But never been able to confirm. One thing that would be a huge score for postierity and might help to answer some of these questions is a copy of the first half of the System Service Manual for the CBX. I have Part II which contains a command reference and some discussion of peripheral cards, but everything relating to system architecture and the design of the common control seems to be in Part I. Do you know of anyone who may have preserved this? I've spoken with a few old hands who were CBX switchmen in the past but all I've been able to get is Part II. > > IIRC the most interesting thing about the CBX was that it could do so > much with so little hardware (relative to other switches of the time) > thanks to TDM of the 12-bit bus through the "connection table", which > was a 384 slot recirculating command buffer that drove the codecs, dial > tone generators, tone decoders, ring generators and the like. Basically > the CPU would schedule the sender and receiver for the bus by dropping > commands into two parallel queues (one for transmit, one for receive), > so there was no need for bus request or arbitration logic and yet the > CPU could be slow, as the sequencer would just advance through the > buffer every 83usec processing the commands that it found. It was a > pretty clever way of substituting DRAM for bus control logic while > reducing processor requirements. I had watched a Youtube video which discussed a little bit about the design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8J6CGI6HA0 However what you write is much more detailed. I believe there is an apocryphal story behind that particular part and sampling rate although the specifics elude me at the moment ... I understand it caused trouble trying to interface the CBX to DS1 circuits. > > MSC was effectively the alpha site for new builds and new hardware, and > we saw failures that at times left us without reliable phones for a day > or two. One of the more interesting was when the switch refused to > honor extension status changes and instead entertained itself by ringing > each extension *once* in ascending order, then repeating. > Sometimes my Definity gets confused and does that. Surprises the heck out of my partner and me. Good thing it hasn't happened in the middle of the night :O Thanks, Sean From pbirkel at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 01:11:48 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 02:11:48 -0400 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: References: <57222CFD.9050606@pico-systems.com> <572242DE.1020209@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <012b01d1a1de$03ecfe90$0bc6fbb0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Gauger-Cosgrove Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 10:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Calling all typographers On 28 April 2016 at 13:05, Jon Elson wrote: > That should be available for most Linux distros. You should also be > able to get it on Windows, but might be a bit harder to find. > I believe the current easiest to get up and running TeX/LaTeX solution for Windows is MikTeX. I don't know if it comes with the METAFONT utilities for creating a font though. Then again I haven't looked too hard since it has xeLaTeX which means "balls to it, I'm using OpenType!" (And there was much rejoicing, as Computer Modern was replaced by Adobe Garamond Premier Pro.) But I digress. Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. --------- http://miktex.org/pkg/az Wow, is that some list. In my era it was a *lot* shorter, by orders of magnitude. The list does include these: miktex-metafont-base METAFONT base miktex-metafont-bin-2.9 METAFFONT binaries miktex-metafont-misc METAFONT misc (and: logic A font for electronic logic design) (and what's not to like about: comicsans Use Microsoft Comic Sans font) ----- From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 01:54:07 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 23:54:07 -0700 Subject: Very sad message: the passing of Jon Johnston In-Reply-To: References: <019001d1a069$ff497730$fddc6590$@xs4all.nl> <002501d1a088$74c24460$5e46cd20$@classiccmp.org> <98b2c7a1-8b60-096d-b945-2a1acc1bfed9@bitsavers.org> <000c01d1a150$ee4b1a50$cae14ef0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: You can see him in the YouTube video he posted at the beginning of the month about his HP 2116 restoration. Very sad indeed. https://youtu.be/Kko526UpHsM Marc From erik at baigar.de Fri Apr 29 03:06:37 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 10:06:37 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Many thanks for the explanations, so your SCBX is bigger than I thought ;-) You hobby of collecting phones and having the SCBX perfectly match and keep us up to date if you receive the first call from an external paricipant. ;-) > while designing a media gateway to sit on the ROLMbus would > be a heck of a project ;) All the modern single board computers (Rhaspberry, Arduino) have got plenty of computational power, so after having solved the voltage-level conversion problem almoust any of the modern "toys" should be able to handle the interfacing in software I guess. After your hint, I found this pretty cool video on YouTube giving an nicely illustrated decription on how the CBX works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8J6CGI6HA0 Quite clever design... Best regards and good luck with your SCBX, Erik. On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Sean Caron wrote: > > > On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Erik Baigar wrote: > >> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Caron wrote: >> >>> I don't have any ROLM computers (not that I wouldn't love one) but I am >>> proud to say that I have a complete ROLM SCBX 8000. I've tried to take >>> some pictures and compile some information on my personal site: >>> >>> http://wildflower.diablonet.net/~scaron/rolmfieldguide/index.html >> >> Wow, that is a lot of PCBs to handle the telephone stuff! >> Thanks for sharing the pictures - also interesting to see, >> that they used a Z80 in there but never used microprocessors >> in their MIL computers (even the later ones!)... >> >> As a project you could design a VoIP PCB for the SCBX ;-) >> >> Erik. >> > > You're welcome! Mine is actually a relatively small example. It has 84 PCBs > in total across six shelves and two conjoined racks with a little disk and > control panel between them. > > If you've seen a picture of a lowboy PDP 11/60 ... I always use that as > something to relate the general dimensions. The ROLM is maybe a little > taller. I need to post some pictures of the complete system and rack. > > I would love to get the ROLM running someday and get it hooked up to a VoIP > network... Another hobby of mine is collecting PBX systems and telephones and > I've already done this for a Definity as well as a Nortel M1 and I have no > doubt that the same could be done for the CBX [1]. > > The CBX (eventually) supported DS1 interfaces ... which would IMO be the > coolest way to connect the CBX to a media gateway ... but one day once I get > the PBX running, I should be able to get it routing calls again with > something like a Cisco box acting as an external media gateway ... while > designing a media gateway to sit on the ROLMbus would be a heck of a project > ;) > > I find the design of the CBX really interesting. IMO, their appearance belies > that ROLM was a computer vendor first a a phone equipment maker second. Not > in a perjorative sense, just stylistically. Comparing them against boards > from WECo/ATT/Lucent/Avaya, Nortel and Harris. > > Best, > > Sean > > [1] http://www.ckts.info > From erik at baigar.de Fri Apr 29 03:08:32 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 10:08:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: > I was a staff engineer at ROLM MSC between '82 - '86. By that time by > any reasonable measure MSC and telecomm were two utterly different > companies that happened to have common parentage; technology cross-over [Another snip] OK, so you are an insider to the Rolm MSC (=Mil-Spec-Computers?) division and in "your" years there, the design of the MSE series and probably beginning Hawk must have been accomplished? > certainly seems that > experience building stuff on the MSC side informed *some* of the early > design decisions on the telcom side. OK, this makes sense to me as you in MSC certainly knew how to design sequencers and things like the connection tables from designing the processors and the MMUs. A very nice example from my point of view is the 3761 card for the Rolms Computers, which is a MIL1553 bus interface: This one essentially is a dedicated sequencer capable of autonomously routing data (and doing simple processing of it on the fly) by a command queue which resides in the hosts memory and is accessed in the background via DMA cycles. This obviously delivers outstanding realtime performance which is not only important in controlling aircraft but the same know how may have inspired the CBX. > TDM of the 12-bit bus through the "connection table", which > was a 384 slot recirculating As mentioned in another posting, there is a nice video from the old days giving a description on the CBX's internals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8J6CGI6HA0 > One of the more interesting was when the switch refused to > honor extension status changes and instead entertained itself by ringing > each extension *once* in ascending order, then repeating. Very funny - but those days a reboot of the whole system takes just a fraction of a second - nowadays restarting a complex telephone system containing several servers may take several minutes which is even a bigger nuisance than the lost connection... Thanks again and have a nice weekend, Erik. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Apr 29 03:27:53 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 01:27:53 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Apr 27, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: >> Smalltalk has other issues. In the 80s, there were not many machines >> capable of running Smalltalk (I'm not aware of any implementation on micros, >> serious or not) > > Apple Lisa. Don't know whether it ever went to market. I think both Lisa and Mac Smalltalk went to market, or at least to academia and industry if they weren?t available as products. -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Apr 29 03:44:59 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 01:44:59 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <8A2AB26E-125C-49A8-84B8-90B38670F0D3@eschatologist.net> On Apr 27, 2016, at 9:55 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > Apple goes its own way, but has forgotten the truly innovative > projects it had pre-NeXT, such as Dylan. Dylan, despite being created by a bunch of Symbolics (and other Common Lisp) folks, was actually less innovative than it might sound these days. It was basically a Scheme-style Lisp-1 with a cleaned-up and pervasive CLOS that intentionally eschewed a metaobject protocol in favor of easy compilation and optimization. Which then had an infix syntax tacked on in the belief that it was all the parentheses that turned people off to Lisp, instead of the inability to reason in a vacuum about what assembly any arbitrary line of code would generate. So the folks putting together Dylan spent A TON of effort on producing an infix-syntax Lisp-1 with CLOS which included support for a full Scheme-style syntax-transforming hygienic macro system. Nobody doing commercial Mac development wanted it because it was still a Lisp in Pascal/C-ish clothes, instead of the better C that they had been asking for. (And eventually got, in the form of Objective-C.) The people who were not going to use Dylan were *never* going to use it, so it wasn?t really worthwhile to spend all the effort that they (and Carnegie Mellon, and Harlequin, and so on) did trying to appease them. That time, effort, and money would?ve been better spent actually shipping a PowerPC version of the prefix-syntax Dylan language, environment, and frameworks at a time when PowerPC was just coming onto the market along with enough RAM and CPU to make language choice matter a whole lot less. That would?ve enabled interesting and potentially game-changing applications, instead of just being a curiosity. -- Chris -- who is interested in buying a copy of the PowerPC version of Apple Dylan DR1 that Digitool shipped on contract to Apple, if anyone has it From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 06:33:42 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 07:33:42 -0400 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: <012b01d1a1de$03ecfe90$0bc6fbb0$@gmail.com> References: <57222CFD.9050606@pico-systems.com> <572242DE.1020209@pico-systems.com> <012b01d1a1de$03ecfe90$0bc6fbb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 29 April 2016 at 02:11, Paul Birkel wrote: > http://miktex.org/pkg/az > > Wow, is that some list. In my era it was a *lot* shorter, by orders of magnitude. The list does include these: > > miktex-metafont-base METAFONT base > miktex-metafont-bin-2.9 METAFFONT binaries > miktex-metafont-misc METAFONT misc > > (and: logic A font for electronic logic design) > > (and what's not to like about: comicsans Use Microsoft Comic Sans font) > Instead of using that package list, I prefer to just browse CTAN directly: Since that's ultimately where MikTeX downloads packags from. Also, CTAN includes the package documentation (if it has any), which is handy when using some of them. ("Halp, how can use pgfplots?" "Have you tried reading the manual?" "THERE'S A MANUAL!?") About the comicsans package: It's , use xeTeX/xeLaTeX or LuaTeX/LuaLaTeX and fontspec to use Comic Sans directly from the TTF file. An aside on Comic Sans: Even though it's a pretty bad typeface, it is apparently really readable by those with dyslexia. There's still better typefaces for that kind of application. Regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From steven at malikoff.com Fri Apr 29 07:39:50 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 22:39:50 +1000 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> References: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote > On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:19:43 +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote >> But they built it out of circles and straight lines and that's what I do. > > That's superficially, but not exactly, true. Even the 'o' is not a perfect > circle, and you can't get close to replicating the 's' or the digits that way. > > I took a stab at replicating the 'classic dec' font about a decade ago, following > scanned DEC manuals wherever possible. I built up most of the basic ASCII set in > the outline form before suspending the project. (I suspect the solid form can > mostly be derived from paths through the middle of the outline strokes.) It did > get used a few years ago by our Jason T for some VCF Midwest graphics - > https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/VCFMW50OfficialGraphics#551251 > 2730455260610 I've also had a go at the dec font for the purpose of those 'good enough' mastheads I posted about here last year: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?544-A-good-enough-replica-of-the-digital-PDP11-masthead-for-the-H960-rack I too found the font to be mostly circles and tengential lines except for the 's' which gave me a lot of trouble to draw nicely in my CAD program. I'm puzzled about the notion of 'o' not being a perfect circle as I found it to be quite so, at least on the masthead. As mentioned there are different 't's. I treat the whole masthead as an integral CAD drawing - I'm not trying to replicate Paul's near-enough Corel-drawn font (which I examined) but rather a correctly spaced and kerned piece of text, just as it is on the masthead. I've made some test cuts in paper and vinyl on my CNC stencil cutter for both a positive (stick-on decal) and negative (for silkscreening) and the results are fairly promising, but I put it aside a while ago so I just need to find some time to get back into it. Steve. From tsg at bonedaddy.net Fri Apr 29 07:50:42 2016 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 08:50:42 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <201604281435.KAA29728@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0df580d8285cdc5ff14348241a4c63d8@triadic.us> Message-ID: <20160429125042.GR22050@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Liam Proven [160428 18:41]: [..SNIP..] > > Gentoo Linux is my > > distro of choice simply because i can pick, choose, and compile everything i > > want for just about any arch. > > I tried it years ago. I found it a very unpleasant experience, and > went to some communities, both online and real-world, to ask for > guidance. One of my questions was "how can I choose a simpler init? I > don't like SysV init, I prefer the BSD one. How do I switch?" > > At first they didn't understand the question at all. When I got it > across, the reaction was incredulity: "why on Earth would you want to > do that?!" > > I could tweak the compile flags and optimisation of KDE, but not > change the init. That's not customisation in my book: that's > yak-shaving, painting the bike shed a new colour. Basically pointless; > I wanted more profound change, and Gentoo didn't offer it and the > Gentoo community couldn't grasp /why/ I'd want to change something so > profound that it was a given, an axiom, a fundamental. > > So I gave up on it before I even had a fully-working system. And of course I have a completely opposite experience with Gentoo and the Gentoo communities I visit. Gentoo is very much of the mind that if you want to do something that isn't currently possible then you either put some code where your mouth is or pay someone else to do so. People who walk in and act like all the volunteers owe them something tend to not get along well. Todd From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 29 08:09:30 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 09:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from Message-ID: <20160429130930.AC2B618C134@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Swift Griggs > even though there is *more* overall documentation on the Internet, the > docs you get with hardware and tools are nowhere near as good as they > were in the 80s AFAIK. I think that's partially because the speed of product cycles has sped up; there just isn't time to get good docs done and out. Also, there's more competitiveness/'efficiency', and good documentation costs money/overhead. Wonderful as e.g. DEC Technical Manuals were, I suspect producing their ilk nowadays is simply beyond the industry's capabilities (in the organizational sense, not the technical skill sense). > From: Liam Proven > C is popular because C is popular. Yes, but that had to start somewhere. I think it _became_ popular for two reasons: i) it was 'the' language of Unix, and Unix was so much better than 99% of the alternatives _at the time_ that it grew like crazy, and ii) C was a lot better than many of the alternatives _at the time it first appeared_ (for a number of reasons, which I won't expand on unless there is interest). > direct memory allocation, pointer manipulation and so on -- are > widespread /because/ of the C family influence. And I have a deep > suspicion that these are harmful things. Pointers, yes. Allocation, not really - a lot of languages have heaps. Did you mean manual freeing when you mention 'memory allocation', because technically even something like CONS allocates memory? And one could consider 'auto' variables as 'allocated' - but the 'freeing' is automatic, when the routine returns. As to whether those two are harmful - they can be. You have to have a 'clean' programming style to use them extensively without running into problems. (I personally have only rarely run into problems with them - and then mostly in very early C, before casts existed, because of C's wierd pointer math rules.) I would need to think about this for a while to really come up with a good position, but my initial sense is that these two are perhaps things that should be hidden in the depths of large systems, for use by very good programmers, that 'average' programmers should only be using higher-level constructs. (E.g. build a 'system' of routines to manage a certain kind of objects - like OO languages enforce in the language itself - and the average user only calls foo_allocate(), etc.) > I actually hugely admire Linux > ... > We are continuing to refine and tweak a 1970s-style OS -- a > technologically conservative monolithic Unix. FOSS Unix hasn't even > caught up with 1990s style Unix design yet, the early microkernel ones > .. It's roughly 2 decades behind the times. I'm a bit puzzled by your first thought, given your follow-on (which I agree with). I'd go further in criticizing Linux (and basically all other Unix descendants), though - your latter comment above is just about the _implementation_. I have a problem with the _basic semantics_ - i.e. the computational environment provided to user code. It was fantastic on a PDP-11 - near-'mainframe' levels of capability on a tiny 16-bit machine. On modern machines... not so much. Noel From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 08:43:36 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:43:36 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160429125042.GR22050@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <201604281435.KAA29728@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0df580d8285cdc5ff14348241a4c63d8@triadic.us> <20160429125042.GR22050@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: On 29 April 2016 at 14:50, Todd Goodman wrote: > * Liam Proven [160428 18:41]: > [..SNIP..] >> > Gentoo Linux is my >> > distro of choice simply because i can pick, choose, and compile everything i >> > want for just about any arch. >> >> I tried it years ago. I found it a very unpleasant experience, and >> went to some communities, both online and real-world, to ask for >> guidance. One of my questions was "how can I choose a simpler init? I >> don't like SysV init, I prefer the BSD one. How do I switch?" >> >> At first they didn't understand the question at all. When I got it >> across, the reaction was incredulity: "why on Earth would you want to >> do that?!" >> >> I could tweak the compile flags and optimisation of KDE, but not >> change the init. That's not customisation in my book: that's >> yak-shaving, painting the bike shed a new colour. Basically pointless; >> I wanted more profound change, and Gentoo didn't offer it and the >> Gentoo community couldn't grasp /why/ I'd want to change something so >> profound that it was a given, an axiom, a fundamental. >> >> So I gave up on it before I even had a fully-working system. > > And of course I have a completely opposite experience with Gentoo and > the Gentoo communities I visit. > > Gentoo is very much of the mind that if you want to do something that > isn't currently possible then you either put some code where your mouth > is or pay someone else to do so. > > People who walk in and act like all the volunteers owe them something > tend to not get along well. Well, it was the early days, well over a decade ago now. And TBH I never saw the point of building from source. The delays caused by slow disks, not enough cache, lack of perfect graphics drivers, inefficiencies in the Linux kernel and so on are a *far* bigger influence on system performance than compiler optimisations. TBH I always thought it was a bit of a waste of time. But the real issue is that, when you look at _really_ fundamental stuff, such as init systems or filesystem layout, then Gentoo is no more customisable than any other distro. There are distros which make _real_, important changes to the structure and function of Linux. Examples include GoboLinux: http://www.gobolinux.org/ It completely dispenses with the traditional Unix filesystem hierarchy. No /etc or /usr or /bin/. *That* is a real change, not tweaking the compiler flags. Or NixOS, which has a functional-programming approach to package management: https://nixos.org/ Those are /really/ different. Gentoo is just putting low-profile tyres and plastic spoilers on a boring little family car. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 08:51:12 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:51:12 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160429130930.AC2B618C134@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160429130930.AC2B618C134@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 29 April 2016 at 15:09, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Swift Griggs > > > even though there is *more* overall documentation on the Internet, the > > docs you get with hardware and tools are nowhere near as good as they > > were in the 80s AFAIK. > > I think that's partially because the speed of product cycles has sped up; > there just isn't time to get good docs done and out. Also, there's more > competitiveness/'efficiency', and good documentation costs money/overhead. > > Wonderful as e.g. DEC Technical Manuals were, I suspect producing their ilk > nowadays is simply beyond the industry's capabilities (in the organizational > sense, not the technical skill sense). True, at least up to a point. > > From: Liam Proven > > > C is popular because C is popular. > > Yes, but that had to start somewhere. > > I think it _became_ popular for two reasons: i) it was 'the' language of > Unix, and Unix was so much better than 99% of the alternatives _at the time_ > that it grew like crazy, and ii) C was a lot better than many of the > alternatives _at the time it first appeared_ (for a number of reasons, which > I won't expand on unless there is interest). > I am indeed interested. > > direct memory allocation, pointer manipulation and so on -- are > > widespread /because/ of the C family influence. And I have a deep > > suspicion that these are harmful things. > > Pointers, yes. Allocation, not really - a lot of languages have heaps. Did > you mean manual freeing when you mention 'memory allocation', because > technically even something like CONS allocates memory? And one could consider > 'auto' variables as 'allocated' - but the 'freeing' is automatic, when the > routine returns. Well, malloc() and free(), anyway. I can't find the citation but I have seen references to GC environments actually being _faster_ on well-structured systems. Notably, LispMs. > As to whether those two are harmful - they can be. You have to have a 'clean' > programming style to use them extensively without running into problems. (I > personally have only rarely run into problems with them - and then mostly in > very early C, before casts existed, because of C's wierd pointer math rules.) Well exactly. Some people can use Lisp macros to do brilliant things; most can't. Some people can write clean, safe C; most can't. Not everyone's a genius. And those who aren't, often don't know. See Dunning-Kruger. Klutzes think they're gods; gods think they're klutzes. As Yeats put it: "The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity." So we *need* safe languages for the non-geniuses who think they're brilliant. You tempt 'em in with productivity and tools and keep them in a safe space where they can be productive. Delphi was superb for this. > I would need to think about this for a while to really come up with a good > position, but my initial sense is that these two are perhaps things that > should be hidden in the depths of large systems, for use by very good > programmers, that 'average' programmers should only be using higher-level > constructs. The thing is, the very good and the average often don't know it, and non-technical managers can't tell. So, keep everyone in the safe space, but offer power tools -- like Lisp macros -- so the brilliant are not held back. > > I actually hugely admire Linux > > ... > > We are continuing to refine and tweak a 1970s-style OS -- a > > technologically conservative monolithic Unix. FOSS Unix hasn't even > > caught up with 1990s style Unix design yet, the early microkernel ones > > .. It's roughly 2 decades behind the times. > > I'm a bit puzzled by your first thought, given your follow-on (which I agree > with). > > I'd go further in criticizing Linux (and basically all other Unix > descendants), though - your latter comment above is just about the > _implementation_. I have a problem with the _basic semantics_ - i.e. the > computational environment provided to user code. It was fantastic on a PDP-11 > - near-'mainframe' levels of capability on a tiny 16-bit machine. > On modern machines... not so much. Well, yes, definitely, that too. I cut my teeth on VMS and preferred it. I'd love to see some more totally non-Unix-like OSes, but I'd also like to see Unix moving forward, not just sitting there getting better and better at what it already is. Linux is boring to me now. It's an enterprise tool. I want to see the effort, the development, the fiery new ideas being spent on something new and different... and I'm not seeing much of it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 09:05:49 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 08:05:49 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > I just have dabbled in a lot more systems and platforms than most. I > never specialised. I went doe-eyed crazy for all things Unix in 1992. However, I also have a far too off-balance curiosity:motivation index. I get interested in a LOT of stuff (just about anything technical), but I haven't been super at regulating those fits, either. However, Unix and coding has managed to keep my interest for all this time.. > But whereas you can find fans of all sorts of languages who look up to > Lisp, Lispers don't look up to anyone. It seems to be the peak. Interesting videos. I've got them up now. I'm trying to educate myself on LISP a little, now, as penance. :-) > I cannot verify this myself but the excitement of the Java folk getting > into Clojure now seems to bear it out to some degree. I won't comment on Java. I can only get into trouble there. I will say that I knew a guy who was quite brilliant and was a TCL, Haskell, and C++ god (especially in TCL, he was a damn terror with that language and worked embarrassing circles around me when he touched TCL). This guy wrote a great deal of the TCL in service in air-traffic-control systems here in the US. He told me Java had some merits. So, I'm holding to that in place of my own experiences with Java. :-) > I was an undergrad biologist. :-) I've never studied CS. Cool. At least you got laid. 10:1 ratio helps a lot in that field. :-P > But that's another thing we've screwed up in recent decades: education. Heh, and everyone's probably had enough of my "you guys just don't understand what higher education is like for students now." whinging (see I know some British English, har har). So, I'll just cut it out. > > I'm a bit sad those never caught on in the states. They are neat machines. > NIH syndrome? Perhaps. It could have also been some kind of trade restrictions or home-team pride, I'm not sure. Europeans bought C64's from Commodore, why shouldn't I have been able to get me a a BBC Micro ? It wasn't right, IMHO. > Ah but that is the exact thing. Yes, it does seem to deliver on that. > But there is a very very high price to pay for it, and that's almost > never mentioned, never discussed. Heh, that price translates to a lot of PITA as a C programmer. Trust me, there is p-a-i-n. Scripters just write their code and walk away when it runs. I have to go back and scrutinize everywhere I did a malloc(), calloc(), free(), bcopy(), memset(), *printf(), or *any* pointer operations. It's a big hassle and if I screw it up, then things either dramatically explode in some wilderness of heap memory, or I create a terrific opportunity for an exploit. So, I totally understand the complaints about C. I live them. The only thing is, I haven't found a better alternative. The bloat in most other languages is just beyond the pale, the compilers often suck, and the debugging and profiling toolkits are often weak compared to the easily accessible stuff in C. I've looked at D, Rust, Go, etc... There is always some kind of downer (for my purposes), but I'm open the to possibility that something can overtake C's popularity and improve the state-of-the art at the same time. > You're clearly a far more advanced programmer than I am, then. I never > mastered OO at all. Heh, I wouldn't say I've mastered it. If you ask me about things like partial specialization of a C++ template class, I'll glaze over like the next guy. I try to stick with meat-and-potatoes OO that does what OO was meant to do, simulate reality. The whole "Object bicycle has method pedal() and method steer()" example is a good one. If you have some problem where you feel confident that you can easily maintain code where "the solution space matches problem space." then everything is kosher for an OO effort. I can read code that's setup like Bicycle::honk_horn(), but I get livid when dealing with someone who goes insane with nested classes for maximum abstraction then names all their classes and method props with 1-3 letter strings. Ie.. Bk::Ped::Foo::Bar::x().Y().z() > Some describe it as a stealth takeover of *Apple* by NeXT. A lot of the > Apple tech & methods (and people) were tossed out, replaced by NeXT > stuff. Well considering Apple was on the verge of bankruptcy at that time, it was probably a good thing. Hehe, NeXT already had their fall from grace, so maybe they learned a few things. > Never got over the line noise aspect. While I know exactly what folks mean, I will attempt a weak defense. Perl has extremely strong string manipulation features, including strong (and easy) support for PCRE's. Those regex's are the main reason folks recoil (because of how often they appear inline in Perl code). Also, if you ask me, most folks beginning to code in a scripting language will produce some nasty code. Since Perl attracted a large number of beginners, you'd often run into line noise style code. However, just to play the devils advocate, Perl can often pack a tremendous amount of logic and functionality in those regex strings. It's often stuff that'd take dozens of lines of C for me to reproduce. > Both good points, but the thing is, all that stuff shouldn't be > necessary. Safer languages can be fast, predictable, suitable for > low-level systems work as well as app work. I should probably check out Go and put a little more effort into it. It seems to make such promises. > C is popular because C is popular. Heh, it's not it's great personality, but like I say, I seem to have the right pathology to use it. :-) > True, but again, *you shouldn't have to*. It means programmer effort, > brain power, is being wasted on thinking about being safe instead of > spent on writing better programs. One side effect of this is that it makes a lot of C programmers pedants. So, in my experience, C code often will compile and run where scripts will die wanting some library or extension you don't have. However, I do wish that compilers would include more features like the ones you mention. There are some that do, but the features and their various implementations in C are inconsistent. > My impression is that the postcard-length summary is: Nice timeline. I learned some things, there. > OTOH a good enough rich WWW client doesn't need to be either Windows or > Unix. That's very true. > > I still carry a Symbian phone since I find both Android and iOS so > > invasive and annoying. It's a strange shake up on the world I grew up in. > Oh, nice! Which one? I ordered it from Russia and switched it to English. It's a Phillips Xenium. It's stupid-simple and made for the elderly. The text is oversized and it hardly has any features (just phonebook, sms, plays MP3s, BT audio). The main reason I use it is that the battery lasts 3-4 weeks for me (crazy long). That and it has a flashlight switch on the side, hehe. My value system doesn't jive with smart phones. They aren't paying to track me, rape my phonebook and browser history, or allow folks to use BT to do the same as I walk by. > I loved BeOS but never saw the Be Book. :-( It's basically documentation for the major Kits (class collections, like "the game kit" or "the printing kit"). It's extremely solid. -Swift From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 09:06:51 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:06:51 +0100 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: References: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <3a47c179-e044-082a-06d9-62f4c7d067e9@btinternet.com> On 29/04/2016 13:39, steven at malikoff.com wrote: > schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote >> On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:19:43 +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote >>> But they built it out of circles and straight lines and that's what I do. >> That's superficially, but not exactly, true. Even the 'o' is not a perfect >> circle, and you can't get close to replicating the 's' or the digits that way. >> >> I took a stab at replicating the 'classic dec' font about a decade ago, following >> scanned DEC manuals wherever possible. I built up most of the basic ASCII set in >> the outline form before suspending the project. (I suspect the solid form can >> mostly be derived from paths through the middle of the outline strokes.) It did >> get used a few years ago by our Jason T for some VCF Midwest graphics - >> https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/VCFMW50OfficialGraphics#551251 >> 2730455260610 > I've also had a go at the dec font for the purpose of those 'good enough' mastheads I > posted about here last year: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?544-A-good-enough-replica-of-the-digital-PDP11-masthead-for-the-H960-rack > > I too found the font to be mostly circles and tengential lines except for the 's' which > gave me a lot of trouble to draw nicely in my CAD program. I'm puzzled about the notion > of 'o' not being a perfect circle as I found it to be quite so, at least on the masthead. > As mentioned there are different 't's. I treat the whole masthead as an integral CAD drawing - > I'm not trying to replicate Paul's near-enough Corel-drawn font (which I examined) but > rather a correctly spaced and kerned piece of text, just as it is on the masthead. > > I've made some test cuts in paper and vinyl on my CNC stencil cutter for both a positive > (stick-on decal) and negative (for silkscreening) and the results are fairly promising, but > I put it aside a while ago so I just need to find some time to get back into it. > > Steve. > Hi Steve Well I'm right in the middle of trying to figure out font forge. Its a camel (a horse designed by a committee) I just about managed to alter and save one character. The H960 top title panel like yours is on my list but a ways off as I have to make and first ship the rest of the pdp-8 range and all of the PDP-11/XX systems that had key and lamp front panels. I have a top class local silk screen studio who are keen to do this kind of high grade work . All manual and requiring great skill. I took one look and said you do it! The lady who runs the business and does my work it said it only took five years on top of an arts degree to get this far. She also said they could not do the artwork because they could not draw. So I don't print and they don't draw and all is calm. They are working by eye down to sub-millimeter levels using very fine very taut screens registering up to ten layers with drying time. They use huge heavy cast vacuum tables about 10 feet square and three feet deep. There's a sort of an X-Y contraption on top to move the screens about. I just sit there and watch one or two twenty-five year old female rear ends stuck up in the air. One day a muffled voice from the depths of one table said you can come over here and look you will see better. I said no that's fine I can see quite well from here. One of the other girls was drinking a cup of coffee and observed this. She spluttered and coffee went everywhere. Give here her due she just said sorry I sneezed! On top of that they are all registered colourists. They can look at a colour and write down the correct code to get the (expensive) ink made up. Another batch due for delivery on Tuesday (Bank Holiday on Monday here) Regards Rod Me I'm colour blind but all layer So once I have the positive masters (black = ink) on to very expensive HP clear film using a HP Dj120 24inch plotter I just hand them plus .svg file from inkscape with all of the layers (up to ten) registered From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 29 09:16:50 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 07:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <33F7D728-2F36-433C-809F-F8D4E928AC5F@eschatologist.net> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <33F7D728-2F36-433C-809F-F8D4E928AC5F@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: >> And you do know what Apple MacOS was originally written in, don't you? On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Chris Hanson wrote: > The original Macintosh System Software was almost entirely M68000 > assembly language. > There were a couple parts of the original System Software that were > written in Pascal, but by and large the space constraints of the 64KB > ROMs and the 400KB floppy and the desire to eke every last cycle of > performance out of the 8MHz CPU led to pervasive use of assembly. > The APIs were defined in terms of both Pascal and assembly, which is > what leads people to think that it was written in Pascal. How much was based on Lisa? What was THAT written in? From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 09:33:43 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:33:43 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160429130930.AC2B618C134@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160429130930.AC2B618C134@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 29 April 2016 at 15:09, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Liam Proven > > > C is popular because C is popular. > > Yes, but that had to start somewhere. > > I think it _became_ popular for two reasons: i) it was 'the' language of > Unix, and Unix was so much better than 99% of the alternatives _at the time_ > that it grew like crazy, and ii) C was a lot better than many of the > alternatives _at the time it first appeared_ (for a number of reasons, which > I won't expand on unless there is interest). Unix was designed in a way which demanded that nearly every function (except for a few built-in ones in the shell) was implemented as a program. So to build a Unix system you built the kernel, that one's written in C, but that's not the important part - you also built the hundreds, and soon thousands of applications, all written in C. To be able to compile those "Unix tools" (usr/src/*) every C compiler had to confirm to a defacto standard in a way other language compilers didn't have to. Usually somebody defines a standard, and then everybody else will decide that it's not *that* important to follow the standard - let's improve it a bit here and there. That wouldn't work for C. To this day C is more standard than nearly everything else. Including C++, which doesn't have the same must-compile-all-old-source pressure. So, the way I see it is that C became incredibly popular not just because it's usable for a wide range of purposes, but even more because "C is C is C". -Tor From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 29 09:37:50 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 07:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Chris Hanson wrote: > I think both Lisa and Mac Smalltalk went to market, or at least to > academia and industry if they weren?t available as products. I know that the Lisa went to market. Sorta. Well before public announcement, I played with one briefly in my cousin's office in Evans Hall (UCBerk). I said that it was going to need some changes to be marketable. (specifically including, "make it faster - did they really write those sections of the OS in Pascal?", narrower, cheaper, and "get rid of those silly floppies with the extra thumbprint slot". "make up a team with experience other than theoretical to redesign it, make it faster, stupid simple, and so cheap that it could be sold for $500, so that you can sell it to yuppies and 'the rest of them' for $2000") I wondered whether they would even try to market Smalltalk. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Apr 29 09:51:26 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:51:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Plan9 and Inferno (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) References: <1722910236.2821634.1461941486317.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1722910236.2821634.1461941486317.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Thu, 4/28/16, Liam Proven wrote: >>> The efforts to fix and improve Unix -- Plan 9, Inferno -- forgotten. > > It is, true, but it's a sideline now. And the steps made by Inferno > seem to have had even less impact. I'd like to see the 2 merged back > into 1. Actually, it's best not to think of Inferno as a successor to Plan 9, but as an offshoot. The real story has more to do with Lucent internal dynamics than to do with attempting to develop a better research platform. Plan 9 has always been a good platform for research, and the fact that it's the most pleasant development environment I've ever used is a nice plus. However, Inferno was created to be a platform for products. The Inferno kernel was basically forked from the 2nd Edition Plan9 kernel, and naturally there are some places that differ from the current 4th Edition Plan 9 kernel. However, a number of the differences have been resolved over the years, and the same guy does most of the maintenance of the compiler suite that's used for native Inferno builds and for Plan 9. Although you usually can't just drop driver code from one kernel into the other, the differences are not so great as to make the port difficult. So both still exist and both still get some development as people who care decide to make changes, but they've never really been in a position to merge. And BTW, if you like the objectives of the Limbo language in Inferno, you'll find a lot of the ideas and lessons learned from it in Go. After all, Rob Pike and Ken Thompson were two of the main people behind Go and, of course, they had been at the labs, primarily working on Plan 9, before moving to Google. BLS From tsg at bonedaddy.net Fri Apr 29 10:06:18 2016 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:06:18 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <201604281435.KAA29728@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0df580d8285cdc5ff14348241a4c63d8@triadic.us> <20160429125042.GR22050@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <20160429150618.GT22050@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Liam Proven [160429 09:44]: [..SNIP..] > Those are /really/ different. Gentoo is just putting low-profile tyres > and plastic spoilers on a boring little family car. You fundamentally misunderstand Gentoo so it's not surprising you'd be so condescending towards it and the people using it. Perhaps ten years ago when you looked you were in some "ricer" community where they were promoting Gentoo as distro to use because you could easily tune your build parameters to wring out every last bit of performance. But when I started with Gentoo over ten years ago I didn't end up in that community. Gentoo is really a meta-distribution and used by other distributions (ever heard of Chrome OS?) As has been discussed there are good reasons to build systems from source. Being easy to patch yourself using your own patches or patches from others instantly is one. Being able to rip out systemd if desired and use alternatives is hardly putting "low-profile tyres and plastic spoilers on a boring little family car." You don't like it (nor any Linux/GNU system it seems if you consider them all "boring little family cars.") OK fine. But don't spread misinformation about it from some failed attempt of yours ten years ago. Todd From tlindner at macmess.org Fri Apr 29 10:07:19 2016 From: tlindner at macmess.org (tim lindner) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 08:07:19 -0700 Subject: Reproduction program pak boxes Message-ID: I just complete a project to reproduce some old game boxes. I got tired of the ripped and broken boxes I have for my Color Computer Program Paks. I made a video about it: https://youtu.be/5L9adQlM7ro -- -- tim lindner "Proper User Policy apparently means Simon Says." From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 29 10:16:43 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:16:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from Message-ID: <20160429151643.26C6718C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Liam Proven >> I think it _became_ popular for two reasons: ... ii) C was a lot better >> than many of the alternatives _at the time it first appeared_ (for a >> number of reasons, which I won't expand on unless there is interest). > I am indeed interested. OK, have to wind my brain back a _long_ way to remember what it was like before I met C (which in my case was ca. '77). Leaving aside places where you absolutely have to have pointers (e.g. device drivers), the ability to allocate storage dynamically (whether via pointers, or some alternative if you consider pointers unsafe) is just really key for many uses, and not everything supported that. For system work, stand-alone applications, etc pointers are really, really useful (if not key), and there weren't that many languages with pointers. It was an absolute revelation to see device drivers written *completely* in higher-level language in Unix! Anyway, for languages with that kind of capability, there was PL/I, which although it was used for the Multics kernel, was rather a large pile; it included a lot of stuff intended for commercial use. There was BCPL, which is basically C without types (a _really_ major drawback) and less terse syntax. Definitely a very nice language (a lot of Alto software was written in it, for example), and probably the best alternative to C _at the time_. I think BLISS was just getting started then, and outside DEC I'm not sure many people knew much about it. Can't think of any others with pointers, but my memory is probably failing me. Algol didn't have (IIRC) pointers or structures - the latter are fantastically useful when writing network code (which is what I was doing at the time). Did BCPL have structures? I don't recall. It's just that a lot of things which we now take for granted, and will be in any 'reasonable' language (types, structures, dynamic allocation, etc) didn't exist in all the available alternatives back then. And some languages had more hairy mechanisms for some things than were probably really needed (e.g. 'thunks' in Algol, for complicated argument support - nobody seems to miss that semantics in later languages). C just seemed to hit a sweet spot for functionality versus complexity - in the syntax, in the semantics; all over. > Well, malloc() and free(), anyway. Especially free()! If you only let people call malloc(), a lot of bugs would go away! ;-) > Not everyone's a genius. And those who aren't, often don't know. See > Dunning-Kruger. Klutzes think they're gods; gods think they're klutzes. > ... > So we *need* safe languages for the non-geniuses who think they're > brilliant. > ... > So, keep everyone in the safe space, but offer power tools - like Lisp > macros - so the brilliant are not held back. There's a problem, though - the great people probably really need access to 'dangerous' capabilities, which they will use to create great software. Limit them to the tools you make available to the average programmer, and you might limit their effectiveness. But once those more powerful tools exist, everyone and their mama is going to want to use them, as you point out. With the inevitable result... I dunno, maybe there's a way to have only 'safe' tools, but do so in a way that doesn't limit the productiveness of the really good people. Noel From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 10:38:07 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 09:38:07 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160429150618.GT22050@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <201604281435.KAA29728@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0df580d8285cdc5ff14348241a4c63d8@triadic.us> <20160429125042.GR22050@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20160429150618.GT22050@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Todd Goodman wrote: > You don't like it (nor any Linux/GNU system it seems if you consider > them all "boring little family cars.") While I wouldn't use the denegrating language, I do share his sentiment. Post systemd debacle, I'm done with Linux as any kind of advocate. I'm an RHCE (yea, I know big deal) and I started with Linux in 1993 with SLS and 40 floppies. I was very excited about it for a good 12 years or so. However, I can't stand the design direction it's taken, I can't stand the GNOME/Pulseaudio/Systemd/Lennart people (personality conflict in the extreme and there are WAY too many of them), and I don't want to continue to witness all this foot-shooting as a fan (my interpretation and you don't have to share it). I'm going to stand back as the Gods of Linux attempt to flush it down the Enterprise / Desktop / Smartphone toilet. I'm a unix zealot, and it's too hard for me to recognize these days. It's my opinion only. > OK fine. But don't spread misinformation about it from some failed > attempt of yours ten years ago. I've used Gentoo very recently (February). I don't think it's garbage, but 'emerge' and I do NOT get along. I don't honestly think they've done that much worthy of note to innovate since their inception, as you sort of imply. Their main narrative is built around Portage. My opinion of Portage is that it's a not-as-good copy of what ports and pkgsrc (in FreeBSD and NetBSD respectively) do a much better job on. I stick with the original, BSDs which *I think* (my opinion only) are _far_ more coherent and easy to use. I could go into some extreme detail comparing each one, but that'd just inflame folks more than I'm already doing (I unfortunately expect full flames from the Church of Linux congregation just for using the name in vain) and these are simply my opinions, so I don't need to. If you or anyone else disagrees, "Ok fine", as you say. I just don't think Gentoo deserves to be put on a pedistal like it's the epitome of innovation. Even among Linux fans Gentoo isn't always popular (it's currently 47th of 100 on Distrowatch, as an example). -Swift From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 29 10:39:49 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:39:49 -0400 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: References: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <9D03E6D7-69FA-4BA4-87F8-0C155EEF8459@comcast.net> > On Apr 29, 2016, at 8:39 AM, steven at malikoff.com wrote: > >> ... > I've also had a go at the dec font for the purpose of those 'good enough' mastheads I > posted about here last year: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?544-A-good-enough-replica-of-the-digital-PDP11-masthead-for-the-H960-rack > > I too found the font to be mostly circles and tengential lines except for the 's' which > gave me a lot of trouble to draw nicely in my CAD program. I'm puzzled about the notion > of 'o' not being a perfect circle as I found it to be quite so, at least on the masthead. > As mentioned there are different 't's. I treat the whole masthead as an integral CAD drawing - > I'm not trying to replicate Paul's near-enough Corel-drawn font (which I examined) but > rather a correctly spaced and kerned piece of text, just as it is on the masthead. Yes, my font doesn't have any kerning and the width data is a mess too. I spent some time with FontForge, but now my Mac is acting strange (TextEdit recognizes the font after I install it, Word and Illustrator pretend it doesn't exist). The way I would deal with the sort of project you mention is to use a tool like Illustrator (or other suitable vector graphics editor), enter the text using the "Handbook" font, then adjust letter positioning with the text positioning tools until it's correct. As for the "digital" logo, it's been clearly established that using a standard font for that will be pretty inaccurate. Fortunately, a correct version, in PostScript form, has been posted long ago by someone who traced it from the original master films at DEC. Most drawing programs (Illustrator for one, of course) can import PostScript. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 29 10:43:57 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:43:57 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160429130930.AC2B618C134@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160429130930.AC2B618C134@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Apr 29, 2016, at 9:09 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > ... >> From: Liam Proven > >> C is popular because C is popular. > > Yes, but that had to start somewhere. > > I think it _became_ popular for two reasons: i) it was 'the' language of > Unix, and Unix was so much better than 99% of the alternatives _at the time_ > that it grew like crazy, and ii) C was a lot better than many of the > alternatives _at the time it first appeared_ (for a number of reasons, which > I won't expand on unless there is interest). I think the answer is simpler: Unix was adopted by a number of academic groups because it was available on easy terms, and it was adopted by a very successful company (Sun). If Burroughs had been successful, its Algol might well have won; it certainly is every bit as capable as C and far safer. (For those who don't want safety, there's ESPOL.) paul From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Fri Apr 29 10:19:06 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:19:06 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160429150618.GT22050@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <201604281435.KAA29728@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0df580d8285cdc5ff14348241a4c63d8@triadic.us> <20160429125042.GR22050@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20160429150618.GT22050@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <6a480282bcc4d8b4231d577224d79edb@triadic.us> On 2016-04-29 11:06, Todd Goodman wrote: > * Liam Proven [160429 09:44]: > [..SNIP..] >> Those are /really/ different. Gentoo is just putting low-profile tyres >> and plastic spoilers on a boring little family car. > > You fundamentally misunderstand Gentoo so it's not surprising you'd be > so condescending towards it and the people using it. > > Perhaps ten years ago when you looked you were in some "ricer" > community > where they were promoting Gentoo as distro to use because you could > easily tune your build parameters to wring out every last bit of > performance. > > But when I started with Gentoo over ten years ago I didn't end up in > that community. > > Gentoo is really a meta-distribution and used by other distributions > (ever heard of Chrome OS?) > > As has been discussed there are good reasons to build systems from > source. Being easy to patch yourself using your own patches or patches > from others instantly is one. Being able to rip out systemd if desired > and use alternatives is hardly putting "low-profile tyres and plastic > spoilers on a boring little family car." > > You don't like it (nor any Linux/GNU system it seems if you consider > them all "boring little family cars.") > > OK fine. > > But don't spread misinformation about it from some failed attempt of > yours ten years ago. > > Todd I completely agree, gentoo has very little to do with tweaking compiler flags. In fact they advise fairly heavily against it. It's all about having the freedom of choice. Gentoo is powerful because you get to chose your init system, kernel options, and every other piece of software that runs on the box. No matter how you configure it, it's most likely supported. You also don't have to pull in tons of packages to support features you don't need. For example, dovecot on ubuntu pulls in ldap, sasl, etc... On gentoo you choose what gets pulled in via USE flags. CrossDev is also a great to that has helped me port gentoo to SPARC64 with little to no issues. Patching packages is a breeze in portage as well. Not to mention that Catalyst makes building ISO's and stage3 archive stupid easy. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 29 10:55:09 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:55:09 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160429151643.26C6718C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160429151643.26C6718C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54E2A901-EC22-4775-8527-D797B4664D54@comcast.net> > On Apr 29, 2016, at 11:16 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Liam Proven > >>> I think it _became_ popular for two reasons: ... ii) C was a lot better >>> than many of the alternatives _at the time it first appeared_ (for a >>> number of reasons, which I won't expand on unless there is interest). > >> I am indeed interested. > > OK, have to wind my brain back a _long_ way to remember what it was like > before I met C (which in my case was ca. '77). > > Leaving aside places where you absolutely have to have pointers (e.g. device > drivers), the ability to allocate storage dynamically (whether via pointers, > or some alternative if you consider pointers unsafe) is just really key for > many uses, and not everything supported that. > > For system work, stand-alone applications, etc pointers are really, really > useful (if not key), and there weren't that many languages with pointers. It > was an absolute revelation to see device drivers written *completely* in > higher-level language in Unix! > > Anyway, for languages with that kind of capability, there was PL/I, which > although it was used for the Multics kernel, was rather a large pile; it > included a lot of stuff intended for commercial use. > ... > I think BLISS was just getting started then, and outside DEC I'm not sure > many people knew much about it. Can't think of any others with pointers, but > my memory is probably failing me. > > Algol didn't have (IIRC) pointers or structures - the latter are > fantastically useful when writing network code (which is what I was doing at > the time). Did BCPL have structures? I don't recall. Algol 68 has both pointers and structures. So does Pascal. And Modula. And SYMPL (CDC's answer to BLISS). The main thing C has that most other languages don't is *unsafe* data typing -- the ability to subvert the type system at the drop of a cast, and the programming tradition to do this a lot. > It's just that a lot of things which we now take for granted, and will be in > any 'reasonable' language (types, structures, dynamic allocation, etc) didn't > exist in all the available alternatives back then. > > And some languages had more hairy mechanisms for some things than were > probably really needed (e.g. 'thunks' in Algol, for complicated argument > support - nobody seems to miss that semantics in later languages). True. Call by name is unique to Algol 60 (Algol 68 dropped it). Keep in mind that Algol 60 was very early; they knew they had to do better than Fortran in function argument handling (not a high threshold). And call by name is very easy to describe in the standard; it just gets a bit tricky when you start to implement it. Not really all that tricky; it just amounts to passing a function pointer, and indeed you can implement call by name in other languages by doing just that. But yes, there clearly are a couple of Algol 60 features that in the light of more experience were judged to be not the right idea. > C just seemed to hit a sweet spot for functionality versus complexity - in > the syntax, in the semantics; all over. I think it is a case of Darwin's principle, expressed correctly: "survival of the fit enough". C sucks pretty badly in any number of places (semicolon rules is one example if you want to pick on syntax, and the semantics are an even easier target). But it was cheap, available, and good enough to do useful work. paul From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 11:07:47 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:07:47 +0100 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: <9D03E6D7-69FA-4BA4-87F8-0C155EEF8459@comcast.net> References: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> <9D03E6D7-69FA-4BA4-87F8-0C155EEF8459@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 29/04/2016 16:39, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Apr 29, 2016, at 8:39 AM, steven at malikoff.com wrote: >> >>> ... >> I've also had a go at the dec font for the purpose of those 'good enough' mastheads I >> posted about here last year: >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?544-A-good-enough-replica-of-the-digital-PDP11-masthead-for-the-H960-rack >> >> I too found the font to be mostly circles and tengential lines except for the 's' which >> gave me a lot of trouble to draw nicely in my CAD program. I'm puzzled about the notion >> of 'o' not being a perfect circle as I found it to be quite so, at least on the masthead. >> As mentioned there are different 't's. I treat the whole masthead as an integral CAD drawing - >> I'm not trying to replicate Paul's near-enough Corel-drawn font (which I examined) but >> rather a correctly spaced and kerned piece of text, just as it is on the masthead. > Yes, my font doesn't have any kerning and the width data is a mess too. I spent some time with FontForge, but now my Mac is acting strange (TextEdit recognizes the font after I install it, Word and Illustrator pretend it doesn't exist). > > The way I would deal with the sort of project you mention is to use a tool like Illustrator (or other suitable vector graphics editor), enter the text using the "Handbook" font, then adjust letter positioning with the text positioning tools until it's correct. > > As for the "digital" logo, it's been clearly established that using a standard font for that will be pretty inaccurate. Fortunately, a correct version, in PostScript form, has been posted long ago by someone who traced it from the original master films at DEC. Most drawing programs (Illustrator for one, of course) can import PostScript. > > paul > The logo I am now using on my panels came off an old disk from my days at DEC. It would have been copied from a bromide sub master using a drum scanner. It was I think postscript as that's what the trade mags were accepting. I did find that one website about the dec logo had the same version as mentioned above. If you want to see how things were look for a youTube video called The great 202 jailbreak. If anybody has found or made or knows a download URL of any dec font it would help me of I could get hold of it. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 11:10:00 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 10:10:00 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Gentoo (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <6a480282bcc4d8b4231d577224d79edb@triadic.us> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <201604281435.KAA29728@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0df580d8285cdc5ff14348241a4c63d8@triadic.us> <20160429125042.GR22050@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20160429150618.GT22050@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <6a480282bcc4d8b4231d577224d79edb@triadic.us> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, alexmcwhirter at triadic.us wrote: > Gentoo is powerful because you get to chose your init system, kernel > options, and every other piece of software that runs on the box. Other than the swapping init systems, many OSS OS distributions have the ability to choose what you want to run. Not all are as granular as Gentoo (but some, say embedded distros, have even more control). There are dozens of Linux distros as you know, and this degree of control & granularity is one of the main variable. Ubuntu users want "just-worky-ness", Gentoo users often want tweakability in the extreme. It all depends on your needs and value system. > For example, dovecot on ubuntu pulls in ldap, sasl, etc... On gentoo you > choose what gets pulled in via USE flags. I guess there is no accounting for taste. I would not call USE flags a feature, my opinion is that they are painful in implementation (dragging around a list of way-too-many little keywords is not fun, IMHO), nasty to work with and have to look at (some giant wrap-around variables in the conf file), and make me feel dirty and disorganized. Plus, in my experience, if you accidentally put in two mutually exclusive or not-very-well-tested USE flags you are in for a hard time that might be difficult to track down (ie.. if the effects don't immediately surface). > CrossDev is also a great to that has helped me port gentoo to SPARC64 > with little to no issues. Cross compiling is neat, for sure. However, Gentoo doesn't have any unique claim on that (not that you implied that). Many other OSs have used the same methodology since long before Linux, much less Gentoo. -Swift From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 29 11:18:58 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:18:58 -0400 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: References: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> <9D03E6D7-69FA-4BA4-87F8-0C155EEF8459@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7BF8ACBC-E9EB-47FF-A60B-50186DF60329@comcast.net> > On Apr 29, 2016, at 12:07 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > ... > If anybody has found or made or knows a download URL of any dec font it would help me of I could get hold of it. My version of the DEC font that's on those bezels and on older handbook covers can be found here: http://www.dbit.com/pub/misc/handbook.ttf paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 29 11:22:47 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:22:47 -0400 Subject: Digital logo artwork - was Re: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: <9D03E6D7-69FA-4BA4-87F8-0C155EEF8459@comcast.net> References: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> <9D03E6D7-69FA-4BA4-87F8-0C155EEF8459@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8895cf9c-65e1-1c3c-3b6c-5f3cea1779dc@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-29 11:39 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > ... Fortunately, a correct version, in PostScript form, has been posted long ago by someone Do you have a link for posterity? --Toby > > paul > > From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 11:37:43 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:37:43 -0500 Subject: Digital logo artwork - was Re: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: <8895cf9c-65e1-1c3c-3b6c-5f3cea1779dc@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> <9D03E6D7-69FA-4BA4-87F8-0C155EEF8459@comcast.net> <8895cf9c-65e1-1c3c-3b6c-5f3cea1779dc@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-04-29 11:39 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> ... Fortunately, a correct >> > version, in PostScript form, has been posted long ago by someone > > Do you have a link for posterity? > I think this is the one: http://nedbatchelder.com/blog/200712/ancient_history_the_digital_logo.html Kyle From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 29 11:43:20 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:43:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160428032850.9911DAB3CE7FC@bart0113.email.locaweb.com.br> <474A9480-FD57-4422-93D5-9BD0471ED7A3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <201604291643.MAA18405@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I [...] have found C++11 added some nice things. > Both C++11 and C11 really have me excited. It's a kick in the butt > to the compiler makers. What have they added? I recall hearing of someone doing some language that requires a runtime with garbage collection and trying to call it C, which to my mind would be a huge mistake - is that C11? > I'm bucking for some polymorphism for C, next. It'd certainly be an interesting experiment to take C and add polymorphism and nothing else. I've occasionally wished for it myself, though admittedly not often - between gcc's additions and my own addition I find it rich enough for most of my purposes. (I really should build my own compiler for it, someday, though.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rwiker at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 11:52:02 2016 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 18:52:02 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> > On 29 Apr 2016, at 16:05 , Swift Griggs wrote: > > While I know exactly what folks mean, I will attempt a weak defense. Perl > has extremely strong string manipulation features, including strong (and > easy) support for PCRE's. Those regex's are the main reason folks recoil > (because of how often they appear inline in Perl code). Also, if you ask > me, most folks beginning to code in a scripting language will produce some > nasty code. Since Perl attracted a large number of beginners, you'd often > run into line noise style code. However, just to play the devils advocate, > Perl can often pack a tremendous amount of logic and functionality in > those regex strings. It's often stuff that'd take dozens of lines of C for > me to reproduce. The regular expression support in Perl is implemented in C, and are supposedly fairly fast. That didn't stop a Lisp programmer from implementing PCREs in Lisp (that supposedly slow and inefficient language), and getting better performance than Perl :-) From db at db.net Fri Apr 29 11:59:47 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:59:47 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160429130930.AC2B618C134@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20160429165947.GA87486@night.db.net> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 03:51:12PM +0200, Liam Proven wrote: > On 29 April 2016 at 15:09, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > From: Swift Griggs > > ... > > > C is popular because C is popular. > > > > Yes, but that had to start somewhere. > > > > I think it _became_ popular for two reasons: i) it was 'the' language of > > Unix, and Unix was so much better than 99% of the alternatives _at the time_ > > that it grew like crazy, and ii) C was a lot better than many of the > > alternatives _at the time it first appeared_ (for a number of reasons, which > > I won't expand on unless there is interest). > > > > I am indeed interested. XPL wasn't bad. (http://www.cs.toronto.edu/XPL/) PL/M wasn't bad either. For low level that is. Pascal and the Bell Northern Research, BNR (prior to Nortel amalgamation) derivative were pretty awful. Fortunately I never had to use the BNR version. They both suffered from not having separate compilation units, at least until near the end of BNR. > > > > direct memory allocation, pointer manipulation and so on -- are > > > widespread /because/ of the C family influence. And I have a deep > > > suspicion that these are harmful things. > > > > Pointers, yes. Allocation, not really - a lot of languages have heaps. Did > > you mean manual freeing when you mention 'memory allocation', because > > technically even something like CONS allocates memory? And one could consider > > 'auto' variables as 'allocated' - but the 'freeing' is automatic, when the > > routine returns. > > Well, malloc() and free(), anyway. > > I can't find the citation but I have seen references to GC > environments actually being _faster_ on well-structured systems. > Notably, LispMs. Yes they can be. Scavenger collector GC. Telephone companies preferred deterministic behaviour from their code and operating systems. GC is not and non-blocking send message passing kernels are not deterministic. > > > As to whether those two are harmful - they can be. You have to have a 'clean' Remember kids, Pascal is for children, C is for consenting adults. > > programming style to use them extensively without running into problems. (I > > personally have only rarely run into problems with them - and then mostly in > > very early C, before casts existed, because of C's wierd pointer math rules.) > > Well exactly. Some people can use Lisp macros to do brilliant things; > most can't. Some people can write clean, safe C; most can't. There are many warts in C I would remove if I had the power to. ;) C is an absolutely terrible language. > > Not everyone's a genius. > > And those who aren't, often don't know. See Dunning-Kruger. Klutzes > think they're gods; gods think they're klutzes. I could tell you stories sometime.... > > As Yeats put it: > > "The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of > passionate intensity." > > So we *need* safe languages for the non-geniuses who think they're > brilliant. You tempt 'em in with productivity and tools and keep them > in a safe space where they can be productive. Delphi was superb for > this. Sure. I'd also suggest 'C' is overused and misused for too many reasons. But *everyone* thinks they are a C programmer these days, which is silly. OTH we still need a language where you can do the bad bad undefined things, just don't expect it to be super portable when you do. C is a high level PDP-11 assembler to this day. (auto increment and decrement) > > > I would need to think about this for a while to really come up with a good > > position, but my initial sense is that these two are perhaps things that > > should be hidden in the depths of large systems, for use by very good > > programmers, that 'average' programmers should only be using higher-level > > constructs. Totally. > > The thing is, the very good and the average often don't know it, and > non-technical managers can't tell. So, keep everyone in the safe > space, but offer power tools -- like Lisp macros -- so the brilliant > are not held back. > > > > I actually hugely admire Linux I prefer FreeBSD these days after a longish period of using Linux. ;) > > > ... > > > We are continuing to refine and tweak a 1970s-style OS -- a > > > technologically conservative monolithic Unix. FOSS Unix hasn't even > > > caught up with 1990s style Unix design yet, the early microkernel ones > > > .. It's roughly 2 decades behind the times. Agreed. Dragonfly is more interesting and some of the work Tannebaum is doing is exciting too. http://www.slideshare.net/eurobsdcon/andy-tanenbaum-euro-bsdcon2014v2 > > > > I'm a bit puzzled by your first thought, given your follow-on (which I agree > > with). > > > > I'd go further in criticizing Linux (and basically all other Unix > > descendants), though - your latter comment above is just about the Technically Linux is not a Unix descendant so much as a reimplementation. ;) But ok. ;) > > _implementation_. I have a problem with the _basic semantics_ - i.e. the > > computational environment provided to user code. It was fantastic on a PDP-11 > > - near-'mainframe' levels of capability on a tiny 16-bit machine. > > On modern machines... not so much. macros suck. They totally made sense on a VAX when one needed inline code because VAX calls were expensive and the compiler couldn't handle inline code generation otherwise. Nowadays? Except for manifest declarations (Constants) I'd remove macros. ;) Please don't waste tomatoes, I love eating them. ;) > > Well, yes, definitely, that too. I cut my teeth on VMS and preferred > it. I'd love to see some more totally non-Unix-like OSes, but I'd also > like to see Unix moving forward, not just sitting there getting better > and better at what it already is. Hey I did some VMS work too. You must remember BLISS. ;) ... > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 12:03:10 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:03:10 -0600 (MDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> References: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Raymond Wiker wrote: > The regular expression support in Perl is implemented in C, and are > supposedly fairly fast. They are faster than some, like Ruby and slower than others like (apparently) LISP. > That didn't stop a Lisp programmer from implementing PCREs in Lisp (that > supposedly slow and inefficient language), Cool. Which LISP ? CL ? > and getting better performance than Perl :-) Hehe, well, right on then. My opinion is that benchmarking and subsequent proclamations using scripting languages is like racing snails vs slime molds (my money is on the snails, BTW). It's all fun until someone shows you a graph of the same algorithm in C and puts a quarter-horse in the race. Then your saying to yourself things like "Should I be 10x or 15x slower?" :-P http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/which-programs-are-fastest.html -Swift From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 29 12:07:22 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:07:22 -0400 Subject: Digital logo artwork - was Re: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: References: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> <9D03E6D7-69FA-4BA4-87F8-0C155EEF8459@comcast.net> <8895cf9c-65e1-1c3c-3b6c-5f3cea1779dc@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > On Apr 29, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Toby Thain > wrote: > >> On 2016-04-29 11:39 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> ... Fortunately, a correct >>> >> version, in PostScript form, has been posted long ago by someone >> >> Do you have a link for posterity? >> > > I think this is the one: > http://nedbatchelder.com/blog/200712/ancient_history_the_digital_logo.html Yes, that's the one indeed. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 29 12:09:20 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:09:20 -0400 Subject: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <201604291643.MAA18405@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160428032850.9911DAB3CE7FC@bart0113.email.locaweb.com.br> <474A9480-FD57-4422-93D5-9BD0471ED7A3@comcast.net> <201604291643.MAA18405@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <648E89DD-73DC-4E81-837A-11DC1AD3B360@comcast.net> > On Apr 29, 2016, at 12:43 PM, Mouse wrote: > >>> I [...] have found C++11 added some nice things. >> Both C++11 and C11 really have me excited. It's a kick in the butt >> to the compiler makers. > > What have they added? I recall hearing of someone doing some language > that requires a runtime with garbage collection and trying to call it > C, which to my mind would be a huge mistake - is that C11? That might have been D, which seems potentially interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_%28programming_language%29 paul From rwiker at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 12:11:46 2016 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 19:11:46 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47C1B6A2-1370-42E6-BE02-4DA3F9167CAD@gmail.com> > On 29 Apr 2016, at 19:03 , Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Raymond Wiker wrote: >> The regular expression support in Perl is implemented in C, and are >> supposedly fairly fast. > > They are faster than some, like Ruby and slower than others like > (apparently) LISP. It's not *generally* the case that cl-ppcre is faster than PCRE - it depends completely on the (Common) Lisp implementation that it is running in. > >> That didn't stop a Lisp programmer from implementing PCREs in Lisp (that >> supposedly slow and inefficient language), > > Cool. Which LISP ? CL ? The original benchmark was run using CMUCL, which is generally considered to be a high-quality, fast implementation of Common Lisp. The benchmarks are not part of the cl-ppcre homepage anymore, but an old version can be found at the Wayback Machine . >> and getting better performance than Perl :-) > > Hehe, well, right on then. > > My opinion is that benchmarking and subsequent proclamations using > scripting languages is like racing snails vs slime molds (my money is on > the snails, BTW). It's all fun until someone shows you a graph of the same > algorithm in C and puts a quarter-horse in the race. Then your saying to > yourself things like "Should I be 10x or 15x slower?" :-P > > http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/which-programs-are-fastest.html > > -Swift > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 29 12:19:34 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:19:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from Message-ID: <20160429171934.693EB18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Diane Bruce > PL/M wasn't bad either. I forgot about PL/M... > Telephone companies preferred deterministic behaviour from their code > and operating systems. Not just telco's. Many (most?) people doing stand-alone applications want this, or something close to it. > There are many warts in C I would remove if I had the power to. ;) Eh, don't we all. My favourite peeve: in cloning BCPL, they left out 'valof/resultis'. That made certain kinds of macros really, really ugly... > C is a high level PDP-11 assembler to this day. (auto increment and > decrement) This myth persists, but it's wrong. B (the typeless predecessor to C) on the PDP-7 had them, before the PDP-11 existed, as DMR attests: People often guess that they were created to use the auto-increment and auto-decrement address modes provided by the DEC PDP-11 on which C and Unix first became popular. This is historically impossible, since there was no PDP-11 when B was developed. The document that's excerted from: http://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html might be of interest here, since it contains a section ("Whence Success?") containing his take on why C was a success (e.g. "it evidently satisfied a need for a system implementation language efficient enough to displace assembly language, yet sufficiently abstract and fluent to describe algorithms and interactions in a wide variety of environments"). Noel From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Apr 29 12:14:13 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 10:14:13 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <33F7D728-2F36-433C-809F-F8D4E928AC5F@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <9E995B96-5A83-476A-BF12-9B30752F2D94@eschatologist.net> On Apr 29, 2016, at 7:16 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> And you do know what Apple MacOS was originally written in, don't you? >> On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Chris Hanson wrote: >> >> The original Macintosh System Software was almost entirely M68000 assembly language. >> There were a couple parts of the original System Software that were written in Pascal, but by and large the space constraints of the 64KB ROMs and the 400KB floppy and the desire to eke every last cycle of performance out of the 8MHz CPU led to pervasive use of assembly. >> The APIs were defined in terms of both Pascal and assembly, which is what leads people to think that it was written in Pascal. > > How much was based on Lisa? What was THAT written in? Not much. I think the Memory Manager was originally written in Pascal for Lisa but got rewritten in 68K assembly for the Mac. Lisa was designed to have 512KB to 1MB on a stock system, expandable to several MB, and also included an MMU & virtual memory. The original Lisa had two 860KB Twiggy drives and typically came with a ProFile, while the Lisa 2 included a 5MB or 10MB ProFile, so a Lisa system typically even had swap. Most of the lower-level portions of the OS were written in Pascal. The Lisa Office System applications and the Desktop were written in Clascal, a Smalltalk-style OO enhancement to Pascal that Apple hired Wirth to help design, which later turned into Object Pascal. All of the applications were based on the Application Toolkit, a Clascal framework implemented as a system shared library, whose design was a direct predecessor to MacApp. None of that would really fly on the Mac, with 64KB of ROM, 128KB of RAM, and a single Twiggy (later Sony 3.5in) floppy. -- Chris From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 12:27:19 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:27:19 -0600 (MDT) Subject: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <648E89DD-73DC-4E81-837A-11DC1AD3B360@comcast.net> References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160428032850.9911DAB3CE7FC@bart0113.email.locaweb.com.br> <474A9480-FD57-4422-93D5-9BD0471ED7A3@comcast.net> <201604291643.MAA18405@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <648E89DD-73DC-4E81-837A-11DC1AD3B360@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > > What have they added? I recall hearing of someone doing some language > > that requires a runtime with garbage collection and trying to call it > > C, which to my mind would be a huge mistake - is that C11? > That might have been D, which seems potentially interesting. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_%28programming_language%29 He *might* also be referring to the part of C11 that folks malign sometimes (Annex K) for bounds checking. Checkout strcpy_s() and strcat_s(). However, maybe not, since it's definitely not GC, just some bounds checking to prevent common crashes & security issues. There is also some rinky-dink GC in C++11 that nobody seems to like or know what to do with: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2008/n2670.htm Word on the street is that this will get removed. I wouldn't trust it anyhow because it's weird and I'd just ignore it and use boost:shared_ptr with glee. -Swift From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 29 12:49:11 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:49:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> True, but again, *you shouldn't have to*. It means programmer >> effort, brain power, is being wasted on thinking about being safe >> instead of spent on writing better programs. True, but... > One side effect of this is that it makes a lot of C programmers > pedants. ...this is also true, and it means the development of a mindset that's better equipped to catch higher-level mistakes as well as the low-level mistakes. It's true that C is easy to use unsafely. However, (a) it arose as an OS implementation language, for which some level of unsafeness is necessary, and (b) to paraphrase a famous remark about Unix, I suspect it is not possible to eliminate the ability to do stupid things in C without also eliminating the ability to do some clever things in C. Of course, the question is not whether C has flaws. The question is why it's still being used despite those flaws. The answer, I suspect, is what someone said about it being good enough. > My value system doesn't jive with smart phones. I would have no problem with them if they were documented. But I've yet to find one that is. I worked on a project writing code for a new Android phone, once, and even as developers we had to use binary blob drivers for important pieces. (It also taught me how horrible the Android build system is.) Mind you, if/when I find one that _is_ documented.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 29 12:59:59 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:59:59 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <6B01C694-2736-4201-9762-605DE4B35623@comcast.net> > On Apr 29, 2016, at 1:49 PM, Mouse wrote: > > ... > I would have no problem with them if they were documented. But I've > yet to find one that is. I worked on a project writing code for a new > Android phone, once, and even as developers we had to use binary blob > drivers for important pieces. (It also taught me how horrible the > Android build system is.) > > Mind you, if/when I find one that _is_ documented.... The other problem is that only the data/apps part is open (to some extent). The voice part is a closed system, written on a closed RTOS. It undoubtedly has security issues -- which is quite a concern given that that's where all the voice processing for phone calls lives. I don't know if it's involved with VoIP calls sufficiently to be a worry, but it certainly is involved in regular cell calls. There have been some attempts to create an open "baseband stack", but I suspect the authorities will work hard to prevent that from becoming real. paul From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 13:00:07 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:00:07 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:45 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > > On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: > >> >> >> IIRC the most interesting thing about the CBX was that it could do so >> much with so little hardware (relative to other switches of the time) >> thanks to TDM of the 12-bit bus through the "connection table", which >> was a 384 slot recirculating command buffer that drove the codecs, dial >> tone generators, tone decoders, ring generators and the like. Basically >> the CPU would schedule the sender and receiver for the bus by dropping >> commands into two parallel queues (one for transmit, one for receive), >> so there was no need for bus request or arbitration logic and yet the >> CPU could be slow, as the sequencer would just advance through the >> buffer every 83usec processing the commands that it found. It was a >> pretty clever way of substituting DRAM for bus control logic while >> reducing processor requirements. >> > > I had watched a Youtube video which discussed a little bit about the > design: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8J6CGI6HA0 > > Cool. I know basically nothing about telecom and switching; but my computer graphics background was saying: "Look! A display list!". Parallel evolution. -- Charles From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 29 13:02:43 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:02:43 -0700 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> On 04/29/2016 10:49 AM, Mouse wrote: > Of course, the question is not whether C has flaws. The question is > why it's still being used despite those flaws. The answer, I > suspect, is what someone said about it being good enough. My gripe with C is essentially the same as my grumbles with APL--it's far too easy to write obscure code and not document it. Old versions of UNIX are full of that sort of thing. Being a low-level language, it's almost as bad as lines and lines of assembly without a single comment. Why it appeals to this particular foible of human nature has always been a mystery to me. On the embedded systems (read MCU) front, I note that Ada is starting to gain some real traction, which I applaud wholeheartedly. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 29 13:05:16 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:05:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160429171934.693EB18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160429171934.693EB18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201604291805.OAA02857@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> C is a high level PDP-11 assembler to this day. (auto increment and >> decrement) > This myth persists, but it's wrong [...] as DMR attests: [...] Note that PDP-11 autoincrement and autodecrement exist only when operating on pointers that are being indirected through, and even then only when the pointers are in registers. C ++ and -- work fine on things other than pointers, and on pointers when not indirecting through them. Also, ++ and -- each exists in both pre- and post- versions, which PDP-11 autoincrement and autodecrement do not. (Only postincrement and predecrement. In C terms, only *ptr++ and *--ptr.) So not only does Word Of God say that the myth is wrong, the C constructs and the PDP-11 constructs don't even match up. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 29 13:22:50 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:22:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> References: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > My gripe with C is essentially the same as my grumbles with APL--it's > far too easy to write obscure code and not document it. "There is not now, nor will there ever be, a language in which it's the least bit difficult to write bad code." Not quite true, of course; there are languages in which it's remarkably difficult to write _any_ code. But it _is_ true that there is not, nor (I believe) will there ever be, any language in which it's substantially more difficult to write bad code than good code. (Of course, some languages make _certain kinds_ of bad code more difficult....) > Why it appeals to this particular foible of human nature has always > been a mystery to me. I doubt it's C that appeals particularly. I've done my share of writing obscure code and not documenting it (I like to think I've learnt better, at least somewhat, by now), and C is relevant only in that it happens to be the language I most commonly work in. I find the same tendency showing up in other languages, anything from sh to DSLs. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Fri Apr 29 12:43:26 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (Alex McWhirter) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:43:26 -0400 Subject: Gentoo (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) Message-ID: I can more or less agree with your sentiments, but given the choice of needing to maintain compatibility between many applications and being able to support multiple architectures such as SPARC and Power Gentoo is really the only choice. The only real close candidate would be FreeBSD which treats anything that isn't x86 as a second class citizen. I have my own issues with Linux as well, and as I said earlier I would much rather use illumos, but when it comes to business applications that always have to run and always maintain compatibility is new versions come out gentoo is as close to a BSD/Unix that I can get to and maintain compatibility with everything I need. Use flags can be cumbersome if you have tons of applications such as a desktop system. But that's generally not the case for servers which is really all I care about in this case. For me it's generally just maintaining a set of used flags for each application that I need which is generally pretty minimal per server / container. Profiles help make Use flags not as cumbersome, but it doesn't quite fix the issue. Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message -------- From: Swift Griggs Date: 4/29/2016 12:10 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Gentoo (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, alexmcwhirter at triadic.us wrote: > Gentoo is powerful because you get to chose your init system, kernel > options, and every other piece of software that runs on the box. Other than the swapping init systems, many OSS OS distributions have the ability to choose what you want to run. Not all are as granular as Gentoo (but some, say embedded distros, have even more control). There are dozens of Linux distros as you know, and this degree of control & granularity is one of the main variable. Ubuntu users want "just-worky-ness", Gentoo users often want tweakability in the extreme. It all depends on your needs and value system. > For example, dovecot on ubuntu pulls in ldap, sasl, etc... On gentoo you > choose what gets pulled in via USE flags. I guess there is no accounting for taste. I would not call USE flags a feature, my opinion is that they are painful in implementation (dragging around a list of way-too-many little keywords is not fun, IMHO), nasty to work with and have to look at (some giant wrap-around variables in the conf file), and make me feel dirty and disorganized. Plus, in my experience, if you accidentally put in two mutually exclusive or not-very-well-tested USE flags you are in for a hard time that might be difficult to track down (ie.. if the effects don't immediately surface). > CrossDev is also a great to that has helped me port gentoo to SPARC64 > with little to no issues. Cross compiling is neat, for sure. However, Gentoo doesn't have any unique claim on that (not that you implied that). Many other OSs have used the same methodology since long before Linux, much less Gentoo. -Swift From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 29 13:51:35 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:51:35 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <54E2A901-EC22-4775-8527-D797B4664D54@comcast.net> References: <20160429151643.26C6718C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54E2A901-EC22-4775-8527-D797B4664D54@comcast.net> Message-ID: <79433aff-a555-2c08-93e4-da2d78edffb0@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/29/2016 9:55 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> C just seemed to hit a sweet spot for functionality versus >> complexity - in the syntax, in the semantics; all over. > > I think it is a case of Darwin's principle, expressed correctly: > "survival of the fit enough". C sucks pretty badly in any number of > places (semicolon rules is one example if you want to pick on syntax, > and the semantics are an even easier target). But it was cheap, > available, and good enough to do useful work. > > paul I say it is more do to the hardware. 11's popped up everywhere. The major feature ( I say bug ) was the the idea of byte pointers. (Designing a cpu about the same era, just word address with byte load and store opcodes. No C for this beast) Byte addressing and lack of DECIMAL instructions where the major ideas on the PDP 11 and 18 bit addressing. That made the 11 useful until the VAX came out. I also suspect the LOW cost of UNIX (at one time) was a big factor with having C around. Did Unix have any other languages with it? > Ben. From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Apr 29 13:51:36 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:51:36 -0400 Subject: File systems expert for a news article (urgent) Message-ID: <5723AD38.7000102@snarc.net> Anyone here on cctalk consider themselves a file systems expert and have the credentials or job title to vouch for it? If so, then I need to interview you ASAP today (in the next hour-ish) for a TechRepublic.com article. Contact me offline: news at snarc.net. Not going to discuss the story itself here in public. From isking at uw.edu Fri Apr 29 13:59:42 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:59:42 -0700 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Mouse wrote: > > My gripe with C is essentially the same as my grumbles with APL--it's > > far too easy to write obscure code and not document it. > > "There is not now, nor will there ever be, a language in which it's the > least bit difficult to write bad code." Not quite true, of course; > there are languages in which it's remarkably difficult to write _any_ > code. But it _is_ true that there is not, nor (I believe) will there > ever be, any language in which it's substantially more difficult to > write bad code than good code. (Of course, some languages make > _certain kinds_ of bad code more difficult....) > > > Why it appeals to this particular foible of human nature has always > > been a mystery to me. > > I doubt it's C that appeals particularly. I've done my share of > writing obscure code and not documenting it (I like to think I've > learnt better, at least somewhat, by now), and C is relevant only in > that it happens to be the language I most commonly work in. I find the > same tendency showing up in other languages, anything from sh to DSLs. > > I have an end-cut saw that I've told my Spousal Unit she should not use. It's not a bad or defective tool - in fact, it's a very useful and powerful tool. But IMHO she lacks the 'situational awareness' to safely deal with an unprotected blade going back and forth several thousand times a minute. C is a lot like that saw - it doesn't have a lot of guards on it, and you can do stupid things. But you can do very powerful things that are difficult or impossible in, say, Python, which is also a very good and useful tool. Don't blame the tools - blame an educational system that doesn't teach software engineering practice, but just teaches tools. "Hey, hold my beer and watch this!" -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 29 14:01:11 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:01:11 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/29/2016 11:03 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > My opinion is that benchmarking and subsequent proclamations using > scripting languages is like racing snails vs slime molds (my money is on > the snails, BTW). It's all fun until someone shows you a graph of the same > algorithm in C and puts a quarter-horse in the race. Then your saying to > yourself things like "Should I be 10x or 15x slower?" :-P > > http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/which-programs-are-fastest.html I liked Forth when it was still threaded. You got the DOES> feature. Do you still have that with the FORTH chips? > -Swift > Ben. From spc at conman.org Fri Apr 29 14:06:35 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:06:35 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > On 27 April 2016 at 22:13, Sean Conner wrote: > > Do you really think it's growing? I'd like very much to believe that. > I see little sign of it. I do hope you're right. I read Hacker News and some of the more programmer related parts of Reddit, and yes, there are some vocal people there that would like to see C outlawed. I, personally, don't agree with that. I would however, like to see C programmers know assembly language before using C (I think that would help a lot, especially with pointer usage). > > As for CAOS, I haven't heard of it (and yes, I did the Amiga thing in the > > early 90s). What was unique about it? And as much as I loved the Amiga, > > the GUI API (at least 1.x version) was very tied to the hardware and the OS > > was very much uniprocessor in design. > > There's not a lot about it out there, but there's some. > > http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35526&forum=32&14 I read that and it doesn't really seem that CAOS would have been much better than what actually came out. Okay, the potentially better resource tracking would be nice, but that's about it really. I was expecting something like Synthesis OS: http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/ (which *is* mind blowing and I wish the code was available). > > COBRA was dead by the mid-90s and had nothing (that I know of) to do with > > Linux. And the lumbering GUI apps, RPC, etc that you are complaining about > > is the userland stuff---nothing to do with the Linux kernel (okay, perhaps > > I'm nitpicking here). > > GNOME 1 was heavily based on CORBA. (I believe -- but am not sure -- > that later versions discarded much of it.) KDE reinvented that > particular wheel. I blew that one---CORBA lived for about ten years longer than I expected. > Compared to a decade before that? Better but more restrictive > firmware. Slimmer cabling, faster buses. More cores. > > Compared to a decade before that? Now the OSes are more solid and > reliable. They can do video and 3D with less work now, even within a > GUI. The ports are smaller, simpler, more robust. The internal > interconnects have changed and the OSes now have proper 32-bit > kernels. > > Actual functionality hasn't vastly changed since the mid-90s, it's > just got better. > > The mid-90s PC merely managed to reproduce the GUIs, multitasking and > sound/colour support of mid-80s proprietary systems, on the COTS PC > platform. > > I'd argue the last big change was the Mac and GUIs, just over 30 years ago. > > And I reiterate: > > >> That makes me despair. > >> > >> We have poor-quality tools, built on poorly-designed OSes, running on > >> poorly-designed chips. Occasionally, fragments of older better ways, > >> such as functional-programming tools, or Lisp-based development > >> environments, are layered on top of them, but while they're useful in > >> their way, they can't fix the real problems underneath. Wait ... what? You first decried about poorly-designed OSes, and then went on to say there were better than before? I'm confused. Or are you saying that we should have something *other* than what we do have? > >> Occasionally someone comes along and points this out and shows a > >> better way -- such as Curtis Yarvin's Urbit. > > > > I'm still not convinced Curtis isn't trolling with Urbit. Like Alan Kay, > > he's not saying anything, expecting us to figure out what he means (and then > > yell at us for failing to successfully read his mind). > > Oh no, he has built something amazing, and better still, he has a plan > and a justification for it. I fear it's just too /different/ for most > people, just like functional programming is. I spent some hours on the Urbit site. Between the obscure writing, entirely new jargon and the "we're going to change the world" attitude, it very much feels like the Xanadu Project. -spc From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 29 14:10:38 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:10:38 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <74611C32-5D35-4961-B24E-E328FAB96B8E@comcast.net> > On Apr 29, 2016, at 3:01 PM, ben wrote: > > I liked Forth when it was still threaded. ??? Base FORTH is not, in and of itself, threaded. PolyFORTH was if memory serves. Then again, creating a thread scheduler (cooperative scheduler) for FORTH is just a modest exercise for the programmer. paul From spc at conman.org Fri Apr 29 14:11:35 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:11:35 -0400 Subject: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160428032850.9911DAB3CE7FC@bart0113.email.locaweb.com.br> <474A9480-FD57-4422-93D5-9BD0471ED7A3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20160429191135.GB18197@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated: > > I don't want to bolt > on anything else, just let me define the same function twice with two > different parameter lists and I'll be one happy dude. The problem with that is the function name mangling (in object files) needs to be standardized or you'll end up with the C++ mess we have now. And yes, that would be nice to have in C. > Same here. I'll do a tutorial or read a book for anything even if I dont' > do much with it. Hehe, this might make you laugh, but my last two were > AREXX (using AROS) and FORTRAN. I'm pissed at myself for not learning > AREXX back when the Amiga was kickin'. FORTRAN was a mind trip. I felt it > had some kind of relation to Pascal (just certain things). It made me want > to go out and do some X-Ray crystallography just so I could write me some > applicable FORTRAN code, hehe. FORTRAN always reminded me of a slightly better BASIC. Then again, that was FORTRAM-77 I was using (first programming language taught in college). -spc From rwiker at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 14:13:42 2016 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 21:13:42 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <74611C32-5D35-4961-B24E-E328FAB96B8E@comcast.net> References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> <74611C32-5D35-4961-B24E-E328FAB96B8E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <75609656-E0F7-46DA-8636-E0975EF21F8F@gmail.com> > On 29 Apr 2016, at 21:10 , Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Apr 29, 2016, at 3:01 PM, ben wrote: >> >> I liked Forth when it was still threaded. > > ??? > > Base FORTH is not, in and of itself, threaded. PolyFORTH was if memory serves. Then again, creating a thread scheduler (cooperative scheduler) for FORTH is just a modest exercise for the programmer. I'm guessing Ben means threaded as in "Threaded Interpretative Language", and not a concurrent programming language. There are still plenty of Forth implementations based on threading (of words). From db at db.net Fri Apr 29 14:25:20 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:25:20 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <75609656-E0F7-46DA-8636-E0975EF21F8F@gmail.com> References: <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> <74611C32-5D35-4961-B24E-E328FAB96B8E@comcast.net> <75609656-E0F7-46DA-8636-E0975EF21F8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160429192520.GA88507@night.db.net> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 09:13:42PM +0200, Raymond Wiker wrote: > > > On 29 Apr 2016, at 21:10 , Paul Koning wrote: > > > > > >> On Apr 29, 2016, at 3:01 PM, ben wrote: > >> > >> I liked Forth when it was still threaded. > > > > ??? > > > > Base FORTH is not, in and of itself, threaded. PolyFORTH was if memory serves. Then again, creating a thread scheduler (cooperative scheduler) for FORTH is just a modest exercise for the programmer. > > I'm guessing Ben means threaded as in "Threaded Interpretative Language", and not a concurrent programming language. > > There are still plenty of Forth implementations based on threading (of words). Sure. Adobe postscript is a thread interpretative language (TIL). It looks very much like FORTH if you squint real hard. Also, old DEC Fortran looks very TILish if you didn't use the option to generate native PDP-11 code. ;) My own 6502 emulator written in 68K asm looks very TILish as well. ;) -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 14:26:47 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:26:47 -0400 Subject: File systems expert for a news article (urgent) In-Reply-To: <5723AD38.7000102@snarc.net> References: <5723AD38.7000102@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Anyone here on cctalk consider themselves a file systems expert and have > the credentials or job title to vouch for it? If so, then I need to > interview you ASAP today (in the next hour-ish) for a TechRepublic.com > article. Contact me offline: news at snarc.net. > > Not going to discuss the story itself here in public. > Can you be a little more specific? File systems is quite broad -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From db at db.net Fri Apr 29 14:26:46 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:26:46 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <74611C32-5D35-4961-B24E-E328FAB96B8E@comcast.net> References: <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> <74611C32-5D35-4961-B24E-E328FAB96B8E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20160429192646.GB88507@night.db.net> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 03:10:38PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Apr 29, 2016, at 3:01 PM, ben wrote: > > > > I liked Forth when it was still threaded. > > ??? > > Base FORTH is not, in and of itself, threaded. PolyFORTH was if memory serves. Then again, creating a thread scheduler (cooperative scheduler) for FORTH is just a modest exercise for the programmer. > Certainly FIGFORTH was not a cooperative scheduler out of the box ;) I wire wrapped a floppy disk controller and interfaced it to my copy of FIGFORTH back in the day.... > paul > > > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Apr 29 14:32:52 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:32:52 -0400 Subject: OT: LED lighting configuration... Message-ID: <13d101d1a24d$eca346c0$c5e9d440$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Sorry for the OT post but I'm pretty sure someone here will know how this stuff works... An office near me was recently demolished/remodeled. It had retrofitted LED lighting in fluorescent fixtures. The remodelers were smart enough to save the "bulbs" but not smart enough to save the "ballasts" (DC power supplies). Once they figured out that they couldn't easily use them, they gave a bunch to me. I'd like to use them but I'm having a little trouble figuring out how. The "bulbs" are labeled: 15F18120-45 15 watt 36vdc constant current I'd like to put four in a fixture and I'm trying to understand what kind of driver I need and how to wire it. I was thinking of using a Mean Well LPF-60D-36 like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mean-Well-LPF-60D-36-AC-DC-POWER-SUPPLY-Dimmable-LED -DRIVER-36V-60W-CLASS2-/161857068172?hash=item25af6edc8c:g:9hQAAOSwA4dWHVn5 and wiring the "bulbs" in parallel to it. But after realizing that I'm not completely sure what a "constant current" power supply does and doing a little "googling" I don't know if that's the right approach. Any help greatly appreciated, Bill S. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 29 14:35:03 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:35:03 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160429192520.GA88507@night.db.net> References: <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> <74611C32-5D35-4961-B24E-E328FAB96B8E@comcast.net> <75609656-E0F7-46DA-8636-E0975EF21F8F@gmail.com> <20160429192520.GA88507@night.db.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 29, 2016, at 3:25 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 09:13:42PM +0200, Raymond Wiker wrote: >> >>> On 29 Apr 2016, at 21:10 , Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 29, 2016, at 3:01 PM, ben wrote: >>>> >>>> I liked Forth when it was still threaded. >>> >>> ??? >>> >>> Base FORTH is not, in and of itself, threaded. PolyFORTH was if memory serves. Then again, creating a thread scheduler (cooperative scheduler) for FORTH is just a modest exercise for the programmer. >> >> I'm guessing Ben means threaded as in "Threaded Interpretative Language", and not a concurrent programming language. >> >> There are still plenty of Forth implementations based on threading (of words). Oh. Sure. FIGForth is (PDP-11 Forth is an example of that). It's very easy indeed to make a threaded-code Forth implementation. In any case, whether a particular implementation is or isn't shouldn't matter so long as the language works correctly, right? > Sure. Adobe postscript is a thread interpretative language (TIL). It looks > very much like FORTH if you squint real hard. I don't know if PS is threaded. It could be. PS claims not to be inspired by Forth, something that's hard to credit. It does have some crucial differences, among which is runtime (usually) rather than compile time name binding. > Also, old DEC Fortran looks very TILish if you didn't use the option > to generate native PDP-11 code. ;) Right, PDP-11 Fortran IV (as opposed to IV-Plus) generated threaded code. And P-code (such as in DEC Basic-PLUS "push/pop code") is essentially the same thing, give or take indirection through a jump table. Same for TUTOR and the first ALGOL compiler (for the EL-X1) -- those are actually hybrids of threaded or P-code and machine code. paul From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Apr 29 14:35:09 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:35:09 -0400 Subject: File systems expert for a news article (urgent) In-Reply-To: References: <5723AD38.7000102@snarc.net> Message-ID: <5723B76D.4090300@snarc.net> >> Anyone here on cctalk consider themselves a file systems expert and have >> the credentials or job title to vouch for it? If so, then I need to >> interview you ASAP today (in the next hour-ish) for a TechRepublic.com >> article. Contact me offline: news at snarc.net. >> >> Not going to discuss the story itself here in public. >> > > Can you be a little more specific? File systems is quite broad > One of the hard disk standards bodies is working on a new feature (which I'm not going to post here) that would require changes to file systems, otherwise the new feature is academic and useless in the real world. So I am looking for someone with FS chops to comment on whether the changes can reasonably happen. Cannot say more except in private. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 29 14:39:44 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:39:44 -0400 Subject: OT: LED lighting configuration... In-Reply-To: <13d101d1a24d$eca346c0$c5e9d440$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <13d101d1a24d$eca346c0$c5e9d440$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3B5FE89F-FD38-4BB1-AEB9-D93006B8A473@comcast.net> > On Apr 29, 2016, at 3:32 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > ... The "bulbs" are labeled: > > 15F18120-45 15 watt 36vdc constant current > > I'd like to put four in a fixture and I'm trying to > understand what kind of driver I need and how to wire > it. I was thinking of using a Mean Well LPF-60D-36 > like this: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mean-Well-LPF-60D-36-AC-DC-POWER-SUPPLY-Dimmable-LED > -DRIVER-36V-60W-CLASS2-/161857068172?hash=item25af6edc8c:g:9hQAAOSwA4dWHVn5 > > and wiring the "bulbs" in parallel to it. But after > realizing that I'm not completely sure what a "constant > current" power supply does and doing a little "googling" > I don't know if that's the right approach. A constant current supply is one that delivers a constant current to a varying load (within limits) just as a constant voltage supply delivers a constant voltage to a varying load. Constant voltage is the typical "regulated power supply". Constant current is needed for loads whose behavior is tied to a particular current, especially if those loads have negative dynamic resistance (such as gas discharge tubes, e.g., fluorescent tubes). If you have multiple loads that want the same constant voltage, connect them in parallel. If you have multiple loads that need constant current, connect them in series, NOT in parallel. The whole point of constant current applications is that the impedance of the loads is not consistent, and if you connect them in parallel, the current through each individual load will not be the correct value. paul From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 29 14:43:30 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:43:30 -0700 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5723B962.1040103@sydex.com> On 04/29/2016 11:59 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > > Don't blame the tools - blame an educational system that doesn't > teach software engineering practice, but just teaches tools. "Hey, > hold my beer and watch this!" -- Ian Maybe--I can't say. At a very early stage in my career, I was exposed to "coding standards" as well as "code review". I took great pride in that few reviewers had any quibbles with my code. Those coding standards extended to the type of commentary required as well as the convention for naming routines, variables and labels. It was anticipated that commentary for a routine could be automatically extracted and be close to what was expected for an internal maintenance document. Do it enough and it becomes a habit for life. This is from when assembly was the language of the day. I've run across old programs that I found myself marveling at for the clarity and discipline of coding, only to find that it was some program that I'd forgotten that I'd written did 30 years before. But all that was in the day of punched cards and printed listings and red pencils. I don't know what people do now. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 29 14:44:57 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from Message-ID: <20160429194457.133B718C11C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mouse > It's true that C is easy to use unsafely. ... I suspect it is not > possible to eliminate the ability to do stupid things in C without also > eliminating the ability to do some clever things in C. Oh so true. Computer science progress seems to be all about improving on getting the most bang for the buck (i.e. it's really engineering, which is all about bang/buck ratios - as the saying goes, 'an engineer is someone who can do for $.10 what any fool can do for $1'). So assembly language is maximally flexible, but very easy to screw up. Something like C gives you 93% of the flexibility, but with only 40% of the chances to screw up. (Numbers only approximate, after 2 seconds of consideration.) So further language development has had to improve on that ratio; ideally, one should decrease the latter with impacting the former, if possible - a non-trivial problem. And of course the optimal flexibility/screwage ratio will differ from programmer to programmer, and even from project to project. (I once wrote a condition handler package for C, and elected to do it in assembler - even though others have done in it C, using longjump(). But there are very few things where assembler seems a better choice, to me.) > Note that PDP-11 autoincrement and autodecrement exist only when > ... the pointers are in registers. Of course, clever programmers will make sure their code is arranged (not warped into an non-understandable maze, mind, just... arranged properly) to do that! :-) But to really do that effectively, you have to be able to control which variables are in registers, etc, etc. Modern optimizing compilers like to do this all for you - and do an incredibly good job, most of the time, to the point where for most programmers, the compiler does a _better_ job than they could. So, for 97% of programmers, probably the right thing. For those who are writing real-time code, know exactly what instructions any piece of code will compile into, and how many memory references are involved, not so much. (Back to different strokes for different programmers.) (Yes, yes, I know those optimizations often aren't portable - I wrote a fair amount of code that ran on several architectures at the same point in time. But what was optimal on one was usually pretty good on the others, too.) Noel From db at db.net Fri Apr 29 15:03:31 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:03:31 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160429171934.693EB18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160429171934.693EB18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20160429200331.GA88778@night.db.net> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 01:19:34PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Diane Bruce > > > PL/M wasn't bad either. > > I forgot about PL/M... ;) > > > Telephone companies preferred deterministic behaviour from their code > > and operating systems. > > Not just telco's. Many (most?) people doing stand-alone applications want > this, or something close to it. Indeed. > > > There are many warts in C I would remove if I had the power to. ;) > > Eh, don't we all. ;) > > My favourite peeve: in cloning BCPL, they left out 'valof/resultis'. That > made certain kinds of macros really, really ugly... Yep. > > > > C is a high level PDP-11 assembler to this day. (auto increment and > > decrement) > > This myth persists, but it's wrong. B (the typeless predecessor to C) on the > PDP-7 had them, before the PDP-11 existed, as DMR attests: > > People often guess that they were created to use the auto-increment and > auto-decrement address modes provided by the DEC PDP-11 on which C and Unix > first became popular. This is historically impossible, since there was no > PDP-11 when B was developed. Yes I knew this. ;) Pity they didn't get it right the first time. I've had to fix some crufty old code in my time. Still adding char to C I'd consider a PDP-11'ism. > > The document that's excerted from: > > http://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html > > might be of interest here, since it contains a section ("Whence Success?") I've read this many times. ;) > containing his take on why C was a success (e.g. "it evidently satisfied a > need for a system implementation language efficient enough to displace > assembly language, yet sufficiently abstract and fluent to describe > algorithms and interactions in a wide variety of environments"). I loved that it started out as a Fortran compiler that failed. "After a rapidly scuttled attempt at Fortran,..." In that era one had to have a highly optimized Fortran. ;) I remember people writing text editors in Fortran and I saw one debugger written in Fortran. It's a good thing it was rapidly scuttled. > > Noel > Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 29 15:03:59 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:03:59 -0700 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <5723B962.1040103@sydex.com> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723B962.1040103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <25cf9538-c0c8-3686-63ba-cfd9a923c2ac@bitsavers.org> On 4/29/16 12:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't know what people do now. > Find libraries that other people have written, glue something together, and move on to the next project/job. Then scream if you try to rebuild it later and the new version of the libraries didn't maintain backwards compatibility and the guy who glued it togther is gone. From db at db.net Fri Apr 29 15:08:42 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:08:42 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160429200842.GB88778@night.db.net> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 01:49:11PM -0400, Mouse wrote: > >> True, but again, *you shouldn't have to*. It means programmer > >> effort, brain power, is being wasted on thinking about being safe > >> instead of spent on writing better programs. > > True, but... > > > One side effect of this is that it makes a lot of C programmers > > pedants. Sooooooo true. I forget on here sometimes. ;) > > It's true that C is easy to use unsafely. However, (a) it arose as an > OS implementation language, for which some level of unsafeness is > necessary, and (b) to paraphrase a famous remark about Unix, I suspect > it is not possible to eliminate the ability to do stupid things in C > without also eliminating the ability to do some clever things in C. My objection is to the effort to fix what should not be fixed in 'C' and not fixing what should be fixed in a OS implementation or library/utility language. > Of course, the question is not whether C has flaws. The question is > why it's still being used despite those flaws. The answer, I suspect, > is what someone said about it being good enough. C's success is breeding a lot of bad code(rs). It's too damn portable a language. I'd also like to see more emphasis on something other than C. We furiously agree here. Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Apr 29 15:10:16 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:10:16 -0400 Subject: OT: LED lighting configuration... In-Reply-To: <3B5FE89F-FD38-4BB1-AEB9-D93006B8A473@comcast.net> References: <13d101d1a24d$eca346c0$c5e9d440$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <3B5FE89F-FD38-4BB1-AEB9-D93006B8A473@comcast.net> Message-ID: <13e101d1a253$261c28e0$72547aa0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Paul Koning wrote: > > On Apr 29, 2016, at 3:32 PM, Bill Sudbrink > wrote: > > > > ... The "bulbs" are labeled: > > > > 15F18120-45 15 watt 36vdc constant current > > > > I'd like to put four in a fixture and I'm trying to > > understand what kind of driver I need and how to wire > > it. I was thinking of using a Mean Well LPF-60D-36 > > like this: > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mean-Well-LPF-60D-36-AC-DC-POWER-SUPPLY- > Dimmable-LED > > -DRIVER-36V-60W-CLASS2- > /161857068172?hash=item25af6edc8c:g:9hQAAOSwA4dWHVn5 > > > > and wiring the "bulbs" in parallel to it. But after > > realizing that I'm not completely sure what a "constant > > current" power supply does and doing a little "googling" > > I don't know if that's the right approach. > > A constant current supply is one that delivers a constant > current to a varying load (within limits) just as a constant > voltage supply delivers a constant voltage to a varying load. Ok, I figured that much. The problem/question is why there are no Amp ratings on anything? Assuming the DC equation: Watts = Amps X Volts I want a constant current supply that "pushes" 0.41 Amps. A little more googling reveals that the above supply is rated "1.67A output". This seems to support the W=AV theory. So, do I want a PS labeled "15 watt 36vdc", regardless of how many bulbs I want to drive? You say "within limits". What specification do I look for to understand the limits? Thanks From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 29 15:11:46 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:11:46 -0400 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <25cf9538-c0c8-3686-63ba-cfd9a923c2ac@bitsavers.org> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723B962.1040103@sydex.com> <25cf9538-c0c8-3686-63ba-cfd 9a923c2ac@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9C85F1CE-62F6-4C57-BAF2-E2CD09E56D19@comcast.net> > On Apr 29, 2016, at 4:03 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > On 4/29/16 12:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I don't know what people do now. >> > > Find libraries that other people have written, glue something together, and > move on to the next project/job. > > Then scream if you try to rebuild it later and the new version of the libraries > didn't maintain backwards compatibility and the guy who glued it togther is gone. Yes, backward compatibility is that a lot of people have never even heard of, let alone care about. Sigh. Networking people tend to be better at this (though even there you can find failures). paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 29 15:12:16 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from Message-ID: <20160429201216.5D29B18C11C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Oh, another factor that led to success for C, I suspect: I/O is not in the language, it's handled by optional subroutine libraries. This made it very easy for compilers/etc to produce language for stand-alone systems. Compare PL/I, which needed a large subroutine library to run on bare hardware. > From: Paul Koning > Algol 68 has both pointers and structures. Yeah, but Algol-68 never did much (although it had a certain amount of influence). Why, I'm not certain - I suspect the fact that it was fairly complex had something to do with it, but I expect its biggest problem was that a number of _very_ respectd people from its committee denounced it roundly (whether their reasons were good or bad, I can't say). Tony Hoare's Turing lecture, "The Emperor's Old Clothes", recounts a lot of that. (That's the source of the famous quote about "there are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies." He was talking about Algol-68, there.) > So does Pascal. Which didn't have a lot of the capabilities needed to be system language at _that point in time_ (remember, this is about 'why did C succeed, back then'); it was, after all, originally designed as a pedagogical language. > And Modula. That was late 70's - C was already off and running by then. > The main thing C has that most other languages don't is *unsafe* data > typing - the ability to subvert the type system at the drop of a cast, > and the programming tradition to do this a lot. {Sighs.} You really seem to have it out for C. You'll never be able to understand why it was so successful if you start out with the mindset that it's total crap (even if that's not the way you thought you meant that comment). That _is_ the implication of that "the main thing that C has" comment - compared to things available _at the time_, like BCPL, etc, it _did_ have significant advantages. Does it have issues? Sure. But the main reason it was so successful is that compared to the other alternatives available _at the time_, it was, overall, a better mouse-trap. (It wasn't just that it went with Unix - as DMR pointed out, below, it succeeded in a lot of places that Unix didn't.) > But it was cheap, available, and good enough to do useful work. There's a lot of truth to that. Dennis Ritchie's HOPL presentation, "Five Little Languages and How They Grew": http://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/hopl.html has a section at the end about "how C succeeded in becoming so widely used", and it's close to that. Some may consider your description a put-down; DMR I expect would embrace it. > I think the answer is simpler: Unix was adopted by a number of academic > groups because it was available on easy terms That certainly didn't hurt, but I don't think it was the biggest factor, by a long way. I think one of the biggest things is that early Unix (I'm thinking V6, V7) was a system with an incredibly high bang/buck ratio - for the size, one got a heck of a lot of functionality. This was important not just for _use_, for for pedagogical reasons - to give students an example of a well-done system. The fact that the hardware it ran on (PDP-11's) was modestly priced (for the day) also helped a lot. > and it was adopted by a very successful company (Sun) Unix had taken off big-time before Sun even appeared. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 29 15:16:14 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:16:14 -0400 Subject: OT: LED lighting configuration... In-Reply-To: <13e101d1a253$261c28e0$72547aa0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <13d101d1a24d$eca346c0$c5e9d440$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <3B5FE89F-FD38-4BB1-AEB9-D93006B8A473@comcast.net> <13e101d1a253$261c28e0$72547aa0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5230ED05-FA7E-4C3A-BF86-F857DC75A6FD@comcast.net> > On Apr 29, 2016, at 4:10 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Apr 29, 2016, at 3:32 PM, Bill Sudbrink >> wrote: >>> >>> ... The "bulbs" are labeled: >>> >>> 15F18120-45 15 watt 36vdc constant current >>> >>> I'd like to put four in a fixture and I'm trying to >>> understand what kind of driver I need and how to wire >>> it. I was thinking of using a Mean Well LPF-60D-36 >>> like this: >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mean-Well-LPF-60D-36-AC-DC-POWER-SUPPLY- >> Dimmable-LED >>> -DRIVER-36V-60W-CLASS2- >> /161857068172?hash=item25af6edc8c:g:9hQAAOSwA4dWHVn5 >>> >>> and wiring the "bulbs" in parallel to it. But after >>> realizing that I'm not completely sure what a "constant >>> current" power supply does and doing a little "googling" >>> I don't know if that's the right approach. >> >> A constant current supply is one that delivers a constant >> current to a varying load (within limits) just as a constant >> voltage supply delivers a constant voltage to a varying load. > > Ok, I figured that much. The problem/question is why there > are no Amp ratings on anything? Assuming the DC equation: > > Watts = Amps X Volts > > I want a constant current supply that "pushes" 0.41 Amps. > A little more googling reveals that the above supply is > rated "1.67A output". This seems to support the W=AV > theory. So, do I want a PS labeled "15 watt 36vdc", > regardless of how many bulbs I want to drive? You say > "within limits". What specification do I look for to > understand the limits? 15 watt 36 V is an odd spec for a device that needs constant current. What it seems to translate to is 400 mA device current, 36 volt nominal operating voltage. That's perhaps 10-12 LEDs in series, since each has a forward voltage around 3 volts, perhaps a bit more. If you have a supply rated for constant current operation, 36 volt or so, settable current, you could use that, crank the current setting down to 400 mA. If it's a fixed supply (36 volts 60 watts, i.e., 1.66 A) then that would not work. paul From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 15:23:55 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:23:55 -0600 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > C is a lot like that saw - it doesn't have a lot of guards on it, and you > can do stupid things. The problem is that C doesn't just allow you to do stupid things, it's actively encouraged. C doesn't just let you aim at your foot, it defaults to aiming at your foot. C is not bad as a fairly portable assembly language, but it is NOT a high-level language. > But you can do very powerful things that are > difficult or impossible in, say, Python, which is also a very good and > useful tool. I've programmed in C professionally for 27 years, mostly doing OS kernel, device driver, and network stack work. Aside from the difference in runtime performance, I am hard-pressed to think of any specific function I've ever written in C that couldn't be expressed just as easily or even more so in Python. Obviously you can't write kernel, driver, or network stack code for most kernels in Python, but that's not due to any failings of the expressiveness of Python. I'm occasionally asked what my favorite programming language is, and I don't have a good answer, other than that in general I prefer languages with type safety and memory safety. I like Java somewhat, and I like Ada even more (recent versions have fixed most of the deficiencies of the original Ada '83 standard). I like Modula 3 (which is much different than Modula 2), but have never had much opportunity to use it. I'd like to learn Haskell, and perhaps OCaml, but don't have the time to invest. More than 95% of my work is in C, because that's what my clients demand, so people are usually surprised to hear my opinion that C is a terrible choice for almost anything. > Don't blame the tools - blame an educational system that doesn't teach > software engineering practice, but just teaches tools. "Hey, hold my beer > and watch this!" -- Ian I agree, except that I don't believe there is actually such a thing as "Software Engineering" yet, even though I've held jobs with the title "Software Engineer". From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 29 15:24:31 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:24:31 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160429201216.5D29B18C11C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160429201216.5D29B18C11C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Apr 29, 2016, at 4:12 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > Oh, another factor that led to success for C, I suspect: I/O is not in the > language, it's handled by optional subroutine libraries. This made it very > easy for compilers/etc to produce language for stand-alone systems. Compare > PL/I, which needed a large subroutine library to run on bare hardware. Then again, the lack of standard I/O is often held as the reason that ALGOL 60 failed. > ... >> Algol 68 has both pointers and structures. > > Yeah, but Algol-68 never did much (although it had a certain amount of > influence). Why, I'm not certain - I suspect the fact that it was fairly > complex had something to do with it, but I expect its biggest problem was > that a number of _very_ respectd people from its committee denounced it > roundly (whether their reasons were good or bad, I can't say). > > Tony Hoare's Turing lecture, "The Emperor's Old Clothes", recounts a lot of > that. (That's the source of the famous quote about "there are two ways of > constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there > are obviously no deficiencies and the other way is to make it so complicated > that there are no obvious deficiencies." He was talking about Algol-68, > there.) Algol-68 was a marvel of simplicity compared to PL/I, but yes, when you compare it with ALGOL-60 or Pascal, it's certainly a beast. The language is probably not that big a problem; it was after all implemented on a variety of machines, some rather small. (PDP-11, for example, at least a large subset. And CDC built a commercial compiler for it.) The notation in the standard was rather challenging. Not as bad as Vienna Definition Language, but still, harder than BNF. A lot more powerful, too. As for influence: Stroustrup refers to it as a source of inspiration for C++, which is pretty clear when you look at C++ i/o stream operators. I still remember the scorching I got from Dijkstra when I (innocently) mentioned Algol-68 to him. He wasn't anywhere near as polite as Hoare. >> So does Pascal. > > Which didn't have a lot of the capabilities needed to be system language at > _that point in time_ (remember, this is about 'why did C succeed, back then'); > it was, after all, originally designed as a pedagogical language. Pedagogical language? I'm not sure. BASIC, yes. But Pascal I believe was a serious language. I learned it in one week, and used it to build a code generator for a compiler in a compiler construction class. We originally used PL/1 there (the Cornell implementation) but had to stop because it was utterly unreliable, and switched to PDP-10 Pascal instead. Worked great. paul From db at db.net Fri Apr 29 15:31:41 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:31:41 -0400 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160429203141.GB89212@night.db.net> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 02:23:55PM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > > C is a lot like that saw - it doesn't have a lot of guards on it, and you > > can do stupid things. > > The problem is that C doesn't just allow you to do stupid things, it's > actively encouraged. C doesn't just let you aim at your foot, it > defaults to aiming at your foot. > > C is not bad as a fairly portable assembly language, but it is NOT a > high-level language. Yes it is known as a high level assembler. -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From rwiker at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 15:33:12 2016 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 22:33:12 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160429201216.5D29B18C11C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On 29 Apr 2016, at 22:24 , Paul Koning wrote: > >>> So does Pascal. >> >> Which didn't have a lot of the capabilities needed to be system language at >> _that point in time_ (remember, this is about 'why did C succeed, back then'); >> it was, after all, originally designed as a pedagogical language. > > Pedagogical language? I'm not sure. BASIC, yes. But Pascal I believe was a serious language. I learned it in one week, and used it to build a code generator for a compiler in a compiler construction class. We originally used PL/1 there (the Cornell implementation) but had to stop because it was utterly unreliable, and switched to PDP-10 Pascal instead. Worked great. Pascal most certainly was a pedagogical language - it started out as a pseudo-code notation, which was eventually implemented. Interestingly, Lisp was originally just a mathematical notation for computer programs devised by John McCarthy; Steve Russell realized (to McCarthy's surprise) that it was actually possible to implement the eval function, turning Lisp into a programming language rather than just a notation. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 29 15:34:02 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160429201216.5D29B18C11C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160429201216.5D29B18C11C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > and it was adopted by a very successful company (Sun) > Unix had taken off big-time before Sun even appeared. Unix created Sun. Sun didn't create Unix. I remember one day when our department chair (community college CS) came running into the lab, very excited. "We're getting Suns! We're getting Suns!" She had just been told that there were some boxes at the loading dock for us, labelled "Multi-media Work-Station". Those turned out to be computer desks. Since she had come from UCBerk, what else could a "Multi-Media Work-Station" possibly be, other than a Sun computer? :-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 29 15:34:57 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:34:57 -0600 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/29/2016 2:23 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Ian S. King wrote: >> C is a lot like that saw - it doesn't have a lot of guards on it, and you >> can do stupid things. > > The problem is that C doesn't just allow you to do stupid things, it's > actively encouraged. C doesn't just let you aim at your foot, it > defaults to aiming at your foot. > I like C for the most part, what you see is what you get. With other stuff, it is too abstract. What does it do? Ben. For humor see this link, but only if you have shoes on. http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Humor/Docs/ShootYourselfInTheFoot.html From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 29 15:36:29 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:36:29 -0700 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> On 4/29/16 1:34 PM, ben wrote: >> The problem is that C doesn't just allow you to do stupid things, it's >> actively encouraged. C doesn't just let you aim at your foot, it >> defaults to aiming at your foot. >> > I like C for the most part, what you see is what you get. Apparently you've never been burned by the way it handles bit fields. From rwiker at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 15:37:02 2016 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 22:37:02 +0200 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <20160429203141.GB89212@night.db.net> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160429203141.GB89212@night.db.net> Message-ID: <357DAB59-A24A-4297-8DD1-6A5D2AB5D626@gmail.com> > On 29 Apr 2016, at 22:31 , Diane Bruce wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 02:23:55PM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: >> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Ian S. King wrote: >>> C is a lot like that saw - it doesn't have a lot of guards on it, and you >>> can do stupid things. >> >> The problem is that C doesn't just allow you to do stupid things, it's >> actively encouraged. C doesn't just let you aim at your foot, it >> defaults to aiming at your foot. >> >> C is not bad as a fairly portable assembly language, but it is NOT a >> high-level language. > > Yes it is known as a high level assembler. Taking this a bit further: C++ is an object-oriented, high-level assembler. Java is an object-oriented, high-level assembler with support wheels. C# is an object-oriented, high-level assembler with support wheels that are not interchangeable with those of Java. At least C is a useful language for coding the lowest level of Lisp implementations :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 29 15:40:05 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Eric Smith wrote: > The problem is that C doesn't just allow you to do stupid things, it's > actively encouraged. C doesn't just let you aim at your foot, it > defaults to aiming at your foot. I like the title that Holub chose for his book: "Enough Rope To Shoot Yourself In The Foot" From wsudol at freedom.com Fri Apr 29 14:50:08 2016 From: wsudol at freedom.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 19:50:08 +0000 Subject: Calling all typographers and introduction. Message-ID: I've been lurking on the cctech list for awhile and thought I would introduce myself. I hope I'm not breaking protocol by responding to the " Calling all typographers" topic I am truly amazed by the breadth of knowledge of the Classic Computers Community. I'm a computer programmer and have worked for a few major metropolitan newspapers for most of my working life. In college @ Cal State Los Angeles, I worked with PDP 11/45, and, If my memory isn't failing me, CDC 3170 and Cyber 76 computers and the ITS timesharing system. Even worked with PLATO when it was put on campus as a test system. First professional job was as an assembly language programmer programming Zentek Zms-90 8080 based terminals for a Classified Ad order entry system in 1977. So I'm old... Next job was as the "system programmer"/system manager for a DEC shop running Pdp 11/70, VAXen 780, 785, 8600 and Microvax II with lots of RM05's and System Industries 9755 and 9775 RM05 look alikes. I went back to Newspapers when they started using DEC equipment in addition to IBM Mainframes. Electronics is my hobby and I am starting/trying to accumulate some vintage VAX and pdp 11 gear. Re: Typography... My recommendation would be to try Macromedia's (now Fontlab) Fontographer for font creation/modification. That was the staple in the Newspaper industryand was used to modify existing fonts. It runs on MAC/Win and with it you can take an existing font and easily modify it as needed. You can adjust glyphs, add kearning and basically design a whole new font and output it as Sun, Adobe type 1, Type 3, Opentype, Postscript, Win bitmap and other formats. I'm only familiar with the old Version 4. The MAC version had a few more output options that the Windows version so that was the preferred solution. Version 4 may be available as abandonware. -- Wayne -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 9:19 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Calling all typographers > On Apr 29, 2016, at 12:07 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > ... > If anybody has found or made or knows a download URL of any dec font it would help me of I could get hold of it. My version of the DEC font that's on those bezels and on older handbook covers can be found here: http://www.dbit.com/pub/misc/handbook.ttf paul From wsudol at freedom.com Fri Apr 29 14:50:08 2016 From: wsudol at freedom.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 19:50:08 +0000 Subject: Calling all typographers and introduction. Message-ID: I've been lurking on the cctech list for awhile and thought I would introduce myself. I hope I'm not breaking protocol by responding to the " Calling all typographers" topic I am truly amazed by the breadth of knowledge of the Classic Computers Community. I'm a computer programmer and have worked for a few major metropolitan newspapers for most of my working life. In college @ Cal State Los Angeles, I worked with PDP 11/45, and, If my memory isn't failing me, CDC 3170 and Cyber 76 computers and the ITS timesharing system. Even worked with PLATO when it was put on campus as a test system. First professional job was as an assembly language programmer programming Zentek Zms-90 8080 based terminals for a Classified Ad order entry system in 1977. So I'm old... Next job was as the "system programmer"/system manager for a DEC shop running Pdp 11/70, VAXen 780, 785, 8600 and Microvax II with lots of RM05's and System Industries 9755 and 9775 RM05 look alikes. I went back to Newspapers when they started using DEC equipment in addition to IBM Mainframes. Electronics is my hobby and I am starting/trying to accumulate some vintage VAX and pdp 11 gear. Re: Typography... My recommendation would be to try Macromedia's (now Fontlab) Fontographer for font creation/modification. That was the staple in the Newspaper industryand was used to modify existing fonts. It runs on MAC/Win and with it you can take an existing font and easily modify it as needed. You can adjust glyphs, add kearning and basically design a whole new font and output it as Sun, Adobe type 1, Type 3, Opentype, Postscript, Win bitmap and other formats. I'm only familiar with the old Version 4. The MAC version had a few more output options that the Windows version so that was the preferred solution. Version 4 may be available as abandonware. -- Wayne -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 9:19 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Calling all typographers > On Apr 29, 2016, at 12:07 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > ... > If anybody has found or made or knows a download URL of any dec font it would help me of I could get hold of it. My version of the DEC font that's on those bezels and on older handbook covers can be found here: http://www.dbit.com/pub/misc/handbook.ttf paul From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Apr 29 15:46:18 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:46:18 -0400 Subject: File systems expert for a news article (urgent) In-Reply-To: <5723AD38.7000102@snarc.net> References: <5723AD38.7000102@snarc.net> Message-ID: <5723C81A.2030307@snarc.net> > Anyone here on cctalk consider themselves a file systems expert and have > the credentials or job title to vouch for it? If so, then I need to > interview you ASAP today (in the next hour-ish) for a TechRepublic.com > article. Contact me offline: news at snarc.net. All set now. Thanks for playing. From db at db.net Fri Apr 29 15:53:37 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:53:37 -0400 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 01:36:29PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 4/29/16 1:34 PM, ben wrote: > > >> The problem is that C doesn't just allow you to do stupid things, it's > >> actively encouraged. C doesn't just let you aim at your foot, it > >> defaults to aiming at your foot. > >> > > I like C for the most part, what you see is what you get. > > Apparently you've never been burned by the way it handles bit fields. bit fields is another part of C that should be removed ;) It seemed like a good idea when we started ;) > > > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Apr 29 15:57:51 2016 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:57:51 -0300 Subject: Forth and threading (was: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160429205755.E7DBBABBA91B0@bart0111.email.locaweb.com.br> Ben, > I liked Forth when it was still threaded. You got the DOES> feature. > Do you still have that with the FORTH chips? All Forth implementations are threaded, but there are several kinds: direct, indirect, token and subroutine. Initially indirect threading was the most popular implementation choice but all Forth chips I am familiar with use subroutine threading instead. Subroutine threading has the highest performance, but it does take up more space (each word uses a CALL opcode as well as the word's address) and it kills CREATE DOES>, which is what you were asking about. There are two solutions to this problem: in Color Forth you can type a word in either green or yellow depending on whether you want its action to happen at runtime or at compile time while in Machine Forth you can define a word in either the normal vocabulary or the macro vocabulary to get a similar effect. The advantage of compile time words (which are different from playing with the COMPILE flag in threaded Forths) is that you can inline the code that would normally be in the DOES> portion of the word, which saves you a call and a return. For a normal processor that might take up more space, but for Forth chips this will almost always be a single instruction which is much smaller than a call so you actually save memory instead. -- Jecel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threaded_code#Threading_models From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 29 16:35:16 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:35:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201604292135.RAA20917@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I like C for the most part, what you see is what you get. > Apparently you've never been burned by the way it handles bit fields. Not that I wrote the double-quoted line above, but...no, I don't think I have. Certainly not recently enough to remember it. But then, I don't assume more about bit-fields than the language promises. A lot of people seem to assume that "the way it works for me on my dev box" is what the language promises. This is a recipe for nasty surprises in almost any system/language/etc. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From steven at malikoff.com Fri Apr 29 17:32:42 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 08:32:42 +1000 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: <9D03E6D7-69FA-4BA4-87F8-0C155EEF8459@comcast.net> References: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> <9D03E6D7-69FA-4BA4-87F8-0C155EEF8459@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0b94e78382571310f3c7a65e624c7e58.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Paul wrote: >> On Apr 29, 2016, at 8:39 AM, steven at malikoff.com wrote: >> >>> ... >> I've also had a go at the dec font for the purpose of those 'good enough' mastheads I >> posted about here last year: >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?544-A-good-enough-replica-of-the-digital-PDP11-masthead-for-the-H960-rack >> >> I too found the font to be mostly circles and tengential lines except for the 's' which >> gave me a lot of trouble to draw nicely in my CAD program. I'm puzzled about the notion >> of 'o' not being a perfect circle as I found it to be quite so, at least on the masthead. >> As mentioned there are different 't's. I treat the whole masthead as an integral CAD drawing - >> I'm not trying to replicate Paul's near-enough Corel-drawn font (which I examined) but >> rather a correctly spaced and kerned piece of text, just as it is on the masthead. > > Yes, my font doesn't have any kerning and the width data is a mess too. I spent some time with FontForge, but now my Mac is acting strange (TextEdit recognizes the font after I install it, Word and Illustrator pretend it doesn't exist). > > The way I would deal with the sort of project you mention is to use a tool like Illustrator (or other suitable vector graphics editor), enter the text using the "Handbook" font, then adjust letter positioning with the text positioning tools until it's correct. > > As for the "digital" logo, it's been clearly established that using a standard font for that will be pretty inaccurate. Fortunately, a correct version, in PostScript form, has been posted long ago by someone who traced it from the original master films at DEC. Most drawing programs (Illustrator for one, of course) can import PostScript. I considered the Batchfelder 'digital' logo for my masthead design (having converted it from Postscript to SVG) and it's a beautiful piece of work. Due to its copyright, I could not incorporate it into my own work so I drew my 'digital' by blowing up the masthead image very lrge and manually tracing the edges with vectors and fitted splines. It took a lot of hours to do this. Afterwards I converted the splines to arc segments for generating the DXF then further conversion to SVG for stencil cut testing. One observation about converting old pieces of text to fonts. In my military vehicle restoration hobby, almost all old WWII vehicles have etched dataplates ('nomenclature plates' as they are called). There is a thriving market in reproductions of these, and are available for a large range of vehicles. Some are better than others. The better ones are done by treating the text, lines and spacing on the plate as an image. That way, the kerning, serifs and peculiarities of the original hand-typographed font are preserved. The inaccurate repros are done by retyping the plate using a near-enough modern font. I have seen one of these plates on eBay that even has a typo in it. That was annoying because it was a copy of a rare one I need for my own vehicle restoration. Steve. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 29 17:55:35 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:55:35 -0700 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> Message-ID: <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> Those who claim that there's not much difference between C and assembly language have never run into a true CISC machine--or perhaps they rely only on libraries someone else has written. Writing a true global optimizing compiler that generates code as good as assembly is a nearly impossible task. When you are dealing with a target machine with a large CISC set, it's really tough. Speaking from experience, again. --Chuck From isking at uw.edu Fri Apr 29 20:02:15 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 18:02:15 -0700 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <357DAB59-A24A-4297-8DD1-6A5D2AB5D626@gmail.com> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160429203141.GB89212@night.db.net> <357DAB59-A24A-4297-8DD1-6A5D2AB5D626@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would actually argue that C++, Java and C# are not object-oriented languages. They are languages with syntax that supports object-oriented programming - note that the original C++ was a preprocessor for a C compiler. Smalltalk, Simula, and more recently languages like Ruby are object-oriented languages. You can write object-oriented code in any language, if you construct your code to express the abstractions of OO. It's easier, of course, in a language that has syntactic sugar like 'classes' or 'interfaces'. And IMHO C was designed for writing operating systems and tools, and that's where it shines. It's still highly relevant for embedded systems, for instance. Again IMHO, the quality of C compilers is such that the relative benefits/costs of C vs. assembler usually lean toward using C, because it does support higher-level abstractions (especially helpful on RISC architectures) and it can be written to be more transparent - bringing us back to the original point of how you use the tools. -- Ian On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 1:37 PM, Raymond Wiker wrote: > > > On 29 Apr 2016, at 22:31 , Diane Bruce wrote: > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 02:23:55PM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: > >> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > >>> C is a lot like that saw - it doesn't have a lot of guards on it, and > you > >>> can do stupid things. > >> > >> The problem is that C doesn't just allow you to do stupid things, it's > >> actively encouraged. C doesn't just let you aim at your foot, it > >> defaults to aiming at your foot. > >> > >> C is not bad as a fairly portable assembly language, but it is NOT a > >> high-level language. > > > > Yes it is known as a high level assembler. > > Taking this a bit further: > > C++ is an object-oriented, high-level assembler. > Java is an object-oriented, high-level assembler with support wheels. > C# is an object-oriented, high-level assembler with support wheels that > are not interchangeable with those of Java. > > At least C is a useful language for coding the lowest level of Lisp > implementations :-) > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 20:48:07 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 21:48:07 -0400 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <5723B962.1040103@sydex.com> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723B962.1040103@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 29 April 2016 at 15:43, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't know what people do now. > The answer, apparently: Step 1: Install package manager of choice. Step 2: Create a blank project using the package manager and Framework X (which is the "in" thing this week). Step 3: Slap together two lines of code which are: theThing.do(); theThing.show(); Step 4: Pray to every deity in existence no one changes anything in the TWENTY-EIGHT THOUSAND dependencies of your blank file. Step 4b: Shoot yourself in the head when someone "unpublishes" their shitty eleven line implementation of the left pad function/algorithm which promptly breaks your everything. No you didn't use it, but it's somewhere inside your 28000 (yes, really, twenty-eight thousand, that's not a typo) dependencies needed to work your blank jspm/npm-based app template. Step 5: Shoot yourself in the head again because "Dude! Like, Framework X is soooo uncool right now. Everyone's using Framework Y!" or Framework X completely changes everything in the way it functions. Because Reasons?. Seriously, here's a blog post about the relatively recent fact that one person managed to break some of the "big name" JavaScript frameworks/apps/whatever-the-shit-they're-called-now: "Functions are not packages," the author states, and I agree fully. This is considered a "package" in the JavaScript world of the npm package manager: return toString.call(arr) == '[object Array]'; Yes, one line. The "isArray" package, on which seventy-two (72) other packages depend. Best thing is there's people in the comments defending this kind of insanity as "hiding complexity." If you can't write something as simple as a left padding function yourself because it's too complex, why in the name of all things holy should I let you even go near any kind of software development? Regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 29 20:56:01 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 21:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <20160429201216.5D29B18C11C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160429201216.5D29B18C11C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201604300156.VAA10016@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> The main thing C has that most other languages don't is *unsafe* >> data typing - the ability to subvert the type system at the drop of >> a cast, and the programming tradition to do this a lot. > {Sighs.} You really seem to have it out for C. I didn't write that the double-quoted text, but it seems to me that you are reading a pejorative attitude into it that I'm not sure belongs there. That _is_ one of the bigger things C has - and, like many language features, it's a double-edged sword. It makes possible a lot of things, many useful, many dangerous, and in some cases, even, both at once. It is possible to come fairly close to type-safe C. But even in the most type-safe of my programs, I sometimes find a need to break the type safety for one reason or another - and C lets me do that without extreme gyrations. (I remember the FORTRAN I used in my larval phase, back in the 1980s under VMS; IIRC doing the equivalent of following a pointer was rather difficult without the use of a helper routine and a language extension.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 29 21:09:20 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 22:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> <74611C32-5D35-4961-B24E-E328FAB96B8E@comcast.net> <75609656-E0F7-46DA-8636-E0975EF21F8F@gmail.com> <20160429192520.GA88507@night.db.net> Message-ID: <201604300209.WAA26914@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Sure. Adobe postscript is a thread interpretative language (TIL). >> It looks very much like FORTH if you squint real hard. You'd have to squint pretty hard. I'd say that PostScript is FORTH with the stacks hidden and more datatypes added. The major thing it shares with FORTH is that it's a postfix stack language. It does not have things like R> and >R, or immediate words, or any of many other things that FORTH can support _because_ it's threaded code running in an interpreter with very simple data structures for things like dictionaries. > I don't know if PS is threaded. It could be. PS claims not to be inspired $ I find it easy to credit, actually; the only part of PS that I see as layable at FORTH's doorstep is the use of a postfix stack model for primitives' inputs and outputs. PS has a lot of other things FORTHs (in my admittedly limted experience) don't, such as many compound types as first-class objects (dictionaries and arrays are the big ones), data-as-code at a level that, while not quite up to Lisp, is far more abstract that FORTH's "assemble a vector of threaded-code pointers" model, and a number of hidden data types (hidden in that they are not first-class language objects) like paths and graphics states. Also, PostScript has a lot of language syntax, whereas FORTH has immediate words that act like language syntax. (The difference is that FORTH makes it possible to change those words, thereby changing the apparent syntax.) As for run-time versus compile-time name binding, PostScript does not normally have any "compile time", since it's not normally compiled. The closest thing is the assembling of an executable array, which you can convert to "compile-time" binding with the bind primitive (as in "/foo { dup cos exch sin } bind def", versus the same thing without the bind). A PS engine may use threaded code, but it does not need to; the language is insulated enough from the implementation that it is difficult-to-impossible for the PS programmer to tell. FORTH is much less insulated. I am offering no value judgement either way. In some respects, the above differences make PostScript the better language; in others, FORTH. And that's as I think it should be: different languages for different purposes. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 29 21:12:50 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 21:12:50 -0500 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160429165947.GA87486@night.db.net> References: <20160429130930.AC2B618C134@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20160429165947.GA87486@night.db.net> Message-ID: <572414A2.5000209@pico-systems.com> On 04/29/2016 11:59 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > Pascal and the Bell Northern Research, BNR (prior to > Nortel amalgamation) derivative were pretty awful. > Fortunately I never had to use the BNR version. They both > suffered from not having separate compilation units, at > least until near the end of BNR. DEC Pascal and Borland's Turbo Pascal had separate compilation that worked pretty well. The one place I see Pascal being a bit out of the league of other systems was standard text and numeric I/O being substantially slower than the I/O library routines for some other languages. Not a problem if just reading or writing a page of text, but if handling hundreds of K you definitely notice. Binary I/O seemed to be OK. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 29 21:23:40 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 21:23:40 -0500 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <79433aff-a555-2c08-93e4-da2d78edffb0@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20160429151643.26C6718C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54E2A901-EC22-4775-8527-D797B4664D54@comcast.net> <79433aff-a555-2c08-93e4-da2d78edffb0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5724172C.1000807@pico-systems.com> On 04/29/2016 01:51 PM, ben wrote: > Did Unix have > any other languages with it? > I evaluated UNIX FORTRAN for my research group in 1976 or so. It was not pretty. We found it took about 750 ms to format a single floating point number and print it out. This was probably before we got out 11/45, so it wasn't on a high performance PDP-11 CPU, but it was WAY worse than any other language. We also found the computed goto worked backwards. The order of the less than and greater than branches was reversed. This made it pretty clear that practically NOBODY was using it. Not a good sign. I suspect Pascal must have existed as people were doing TeX documents, but we didn't have it then. This was on Bell Systems UNIX. After discovering these issues, we went with RSX-11M, and were happy as clams. That was also a great way to develop a bunch of code before the VAX came out. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 29 21:30:56 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 21:30:56 -0500 Subject: OT: LED lighting configuration... In-Reply-To: <13e101d1a253$261c28e0$72547aa0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <13d101d1a24d$eca346c0$c5e9d440$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <3B5FE89F-FD38-4BB1-AEB9-D93006B8A473@comcast.net> <13e101d1a253$261c28e0$72547aa0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <572418E0.5020003@pico-systems.com> On 04/29/2016 03:10 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I want a constant current supply that "pushes" 0.41 Amps. > A little more googling reveals that the above supply is > rated "1.67A output". This seems to support the W=AV > theory. So, do I want a PS labeled "15 watt 36vdc", > regardless of how many bulbs I want to drive? You say > "within limits". What specification do I look for to > understand the limits? Thanks LED lighting power supplies are generally rated in mA output, within a range of voltages, such as 350 mA within 24:72 V DC. Digi-Key stocks something like 10,000 models! Jon From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 22:10:13 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 20:10:13 -0700 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160429203141.GB89212@night.db.net> <357DAB59-A24A-4297-8DD1-6A5D2AB5D626@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57242215.4050309@gmail.com> On 4/29/16 6:02 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > I would actually argue that C++, Java and C# are not object-oriented > languages. They are languages with syntax that supports object-oriented > programming - note that the original C++ was a preprocessor for a C > compiler. I'll disagree with this on behalf of C# and Java. (C++ I agree with; the OO portions of C++ are very weak. Then there are the metaprogramming facilities which make me wish maybe Strostrup had played with Lisp a bit more...) C# and Java provide real objects, and real reflective capabilities. They're built on top of a stack-oriented virtual machine runtime (and JIT compilation) that was explicitly designed to support objects as first-class entities. With reflection, one can find out at runtime what methods and fields an object exposes, iterate over them, invoke methods, and use that metadata programmatically for all manner of useful things. Further, C# and Java's objects provide real encapsulation and real run-time safety -- private data is really private, you can't poke at random memory (*). They're not as pure of an OO language as Smalltalk is and they're not nearly as flexible, but few languages are :). - Josh (*) well, you can in C# (unsure about Java) but you have to explicitly state that you're doing something unsafe when you do it. It's handy to have available but is rarely needed. From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Apr 29 23:36:36 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 04:36:36 +0000 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <08B4FA5C-9BB7-448F-AEC7-0C728F9E290C@swri.edu> On Apr 28, 2016, at 8:38 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > I loved BeOS but never saw the Be Book. :-( Sorry if this is a duplicate, I?m behind on the list by a little. I think the Be Book is effectively on-line at https://www.haiku-os.org/legacy-docs/bebook/ Haiku, open-source and ?inspired by BeOS?, is pretty easy to install on a virtual machine on VMWare or (reportedly) VirtualBox. I don?t know how faithful it is to the original Be experience, but just in case you are interested. - Mark From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Apr 30 01:04:35 2016 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 23:04:35 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On 4/29/16 01:08, Erik Baigar wrote: > > > On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: > >> I was a staff engineer at ROLM MSC between '82 - '86. By that time by >> any reasonable measure MSC and telecomm were two utterly different >> companies that happened to have common parentage; technology cross-over > > [Another snip] > > OK, so you are an insider to the Rolm MSC (=Mil-Spec-Computers?) > division and in "your" years there, the design of the MSE series > and probably beginning Hawk must have been accomplished? Yes, MSC ::= MilSpec Computers I was part of the Marvin team [1], an effort to built a B-level MLS operating system that was capable of running AOS/VS code but which internally was utterly unrelated to AOS/VS; it was the software effort that matched the Hawk/32 hardware effort (software was downstairs on the east side of the building; hardware was upstairs on the east and south sides of the building. While ROLM and DG had a close working relationship, most ROLM implementations, both hardware (the 16xx and Hawk, but not the odd S/140 and MV/8000 punches) and software (ARTS, ARTS/32) were ROLM designs. It was an interesting time. I reported to Terry Dowling, who ROLM recruited out of DG, and more or less everything we were doing was pretty blue sky (in fact the charge code we used was for "Blue sky product planning"). We learned to think about fault tolerance in somewhat atypical ways (the node that's failed may not ever return because someone just sunk it or, using Terry's favorite metaphor, "planted a local sun on it"; under suitable gamma or neutron flux all transistors become photo transistors, which has interesting consequences for disk drives, etc) and the intersection of hardware and software was fluid in a way that I hadn't seen since grad school (I ended up specifying an I/O device that took advantage of an unused feature that Steve Wallach had incorporated into the PTE format for the Eagle in order to turn memory references into I/O requests that would be transparently resolved in the physical memory of another machine. There was a sort of positive tension between the Hawk team, the Marvin team and the architecture group that resulted in everyone learning a great deal from each other ("Yes, I know that the PATU instruction only occurs twice in the body of AOS/VS, but it's executed on every context switch and as such it's probably not a really good idea to implement it by having the microcode scrub each entry in the TLB"). In a curious twist of fate, I found myself working with member of the Hark/32 team at TAEC in the mid-late 90's. There was some curiosity over the proliferation of little hawk statues, with some people thinking we were stealing a single one from each other. > OK, this makes sense to me as you in MSC certainly knew how to > design sequencers and things like the connection tables from > designing the processors and the MMUs. A very nice example from > my point of view is the 3761 card for the Rolms Computers, which is > a MIL1553 bus interface: This one essentially is a dedicated sequencer > capable of autonomously routing data (and doing simple processing > of it on the fly) by a command queue which resides in the hosts > memory and is accessed in the background via DMA cycles. This > obviously delivers outstanding realtime performance which is > not only important in controlling aircraft but the same know how > may have inspired the CBX. The 1553 interface was a very clever piece of work, but not everything we did was that smart. At one point a disk interface was constructed using an eight bit micro rather than discrete logic, and it was DOA because the guys who designed it didn't understand that during boot it was common to have code that looked something like: doas 0, skpdn jmp .-1 The micro would be busy trying to make sense of the doas and be out to lunch when the the machine asked for done status, resulting in it returning garbage (or, more properly, the machine just reading whatever happened to be floating on the nova I/O bus). >> One of the more interesting was when the switch refused to >> honor extension status changes and instead entertained itself by ringing >> each extension *once* in ascending order, then repeating. > > Very funny - but those days a reboot of the whole system > takes just a fraction of a second - nowadays restarting a > complex telephone system containing several servers may take > several minutes which is even a bigger nuisance than the lost > connection... I can assure you, rebooting a confused VLCBX II took a lot longer than a few seconds; that particular exercise resulted in us shutting down River Oaks for the day ;) Cheers, Chris [1] The original Marvin team -- Eddie Yea, Dave Yamada, Jim Woo and myself -- were thought of by parts of management as "the bad attitude team", so naturally we named the project after a certain paranoid and depressed android -- which worked well until we discovered that Marketing had been shopping the term to customers and wanted to know "what it stood for". In what has to be one of the finer examples of bacronym engineering, we came up with "Multiprocessor Advanced Realtime Virtually Interconnected Network" -- and they ate it up. I probably didn't help matters by including quotes from "Fear And Loathing in Las Vegas" in the opening of each section in the architecture spec. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 30 03:42:43 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 09:42:43 +0100 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: <7BF8ACBC-E9EB-47FF-A60B-50186DF60329@comcast.net> References: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> <9D03E6D7-69FA-4BA4-87F8-0C155EEF8459@comcast.net> <7BF8ACBC-E9EB-47FF-A60B-50186DF60329@comcast.net> Message-ID: <51ad3c34-91ab-0cb3-5f31-a35b16c5b892@btinternet.com> On 29/04/2016 17:18, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Apr 29, 2016, at 12:07 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> ... >> If anybody has found or made or knows a download URL of any dec font it would help me of I could get hold of it. > My version of the DEC font that's on those bezels and on older handbook covers can be found here:http://www.dbit.com/pub/misc/handbook.ttf > > paul > > I'm close to you most on of them. That means mine can't be too bad From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 30 03:58:22 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 09:58:22 +0100 Subject: Panelman's adventures on the Fonteria. Message-ID: <7dbd4735-b207-152a-24c8-0acc47deaa13@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Well I made it ! I now have the correct font for the address line in the masthead on PDP-8/e. As usual the combined wisdom of the list was the main source of answers. One point is that are in fact three different fonts in use. The one for the d i g i t a l name, one for the touching out line font of the letters pdp and finally that which is used for the address. The digital name logo sub master I already had left over from my DEC days. There's also a copy on a web site that has been referred to recently. The pdp logo I drew and the basis of the address line text was thanks to Paul Koning's handbook.ttf My view of the list is "Strength in numbers, Depth in knowledge and Band of Brothers in spirit". Thank you everybody Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 05:00:50 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 11:00:50 +0100 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <201604300156.VAA10016@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20160429201216.5D29B18C11C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201604300156.VAA10016@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <01ff01d1a2c7$2da402d0$88ec0870$@gmail.com> Fortran has an EQUIVALENCE statement, COBOL has redefines. Both allows the subversion of types at the drop of a hat. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: 30 April 2016 02:56 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've > sent email from] > > >> The main thing C has that most other languages don't is *unsafe* data > >> typing - the ability to subvert the type system at the drop of a > >> cast, and the programming tradition to do this a lot. > > {Sighs.} You really seem to have it out for C. > > I didn't write that the double-quoted text, but it seems to me that you are > reading a pejorative attitude into it that I'm not sure belongs there. That _is_ > one of the bigger things C has - and, like many language features, it's a double- > edged sword. It makes possible a lot of things, many useful, many dangerous, > and in some cases, even, both at once. > > It is possible to come fairly close to type-safe C. But even in the most type-safe > of my programs, I sometimes find a need to break the type safety for one > reason or another - and C lets me do that without extreme gyrations. (I > remember the FORTRAN I used in my larval phase, back in the 1980s under > VMS; IIRC doing the equivalent of following a pointer was rather difficult > without the use of a helper routine and a language extension.) > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From db at db.net Sat Apr 30 08:39:11 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 09:39:11 -0400 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 03:55:35PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Those who claim that there's not much difference between C and assembly > language have never run into a true CISC machine--or perhaps they rely > only on libraries someone else has written. Now wait a minute here. C is a very old language. When it was first written as a recursive descent compiler, compiler technology was very primitive. K&R style code with primitive compilers pretty much resulted in high level assembler. Look at the keyword 'register' and the rationale given for it. > > Writing a true global optimizing compiler that generates code as good as > assembly is a nearly impossible task. When you are dealing with a > target machine with a large CISC set, it's really tough. Now on that we furiously agree. One problem has been getting that through to people who insist that C is still a high level assembler and has not changed from the time when it was a hand crafted recursive descent LR to the modern compiler with all the lovely optimisations we can do. The best way of viewing it is to acknowledge that modern C is effectively a new language compared to old K&R C that had no prototypes. > > Speaking from experience, again. ditto. > > > --Chuck > > Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From erik at baigar.de Sat Apr 30 08:34:21 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 15:34:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Vaisala SPT11A reader (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: <01f601d19fa2$9451c440$bcf54cc0$@gmail.com> References: <01d401d19f86$845c98b0$8d15ca10$@gmail.com> <01f601d19fa2$9451c440$bcf54cc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Paul Birkel wrote: > Thanks Erik; very helpful. For reference, mine also shares the same > firmware revision. Can you share your source code as well? Upon request I added the firmware files to operate the SPT11A paper tape reader (together with the source code, V1.01, sdcc) to the special service section on my server: http://www.baigar.de/specials.html#Service2016 Use is without warranty and at own risk - credits and link to my pages are welcome ;-) Enjoy, Erik. > -----Original Message----- > From: Erik Baigar [mailto:erik at baigar.de] > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 5:33 AM > To: Paul Birkel > Cc: jwsmail at jwsss.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org; shermanfoy at att.net > Subject: Vaisala SPT11A reader (was Data General Nova Star Trek) > > > Dear Paul, > > thanks for your email - I acquired the reader several years ago and did > quite a lot of experiments to figure out how to use it with the original > firmware SPTS11, 2.02, 5289 but I never got an answer from the reader. So > the project of Jim to read in the DG tapes was the reason I needed to > address this issue. For your (and the communities) convenience I placed the > original firmware (27C256 type EPROM)... > > http://www.baigar.de/electronics/PTR-SPTS11-2.02-5289.bin > > ...and my new one (also 27C256)... > > http://www.baigar.de/electronics/PTR-SPTS11-EB1.01.hex > > ...onto my server. My new firmware just sends out the data read via the > serial port at 9600, 8N1. A welcome messages tests the serial communication > on starting and during this time the red LED is on. > On getting ready the green LED takes over and the yellow one shows the state > of the sprocket input: For each byte read this LED flashes. At 9600 the > serial port is always faster than you can pull the tape through the reader, > so I do not expect the red LED (indicate a buffer overflow, byte lost) come > on during normal operation... > > The pinout of the Sub-D9 male plug is as usual on serial ports: > 5: GND, 2: Data from reader to PC, 3: Data from PC to reader (not used in my > firmware, but original expects some start/config command here) additionally > 7: DC input to reader (in my case 9V). > > Hope this helps, > > best regards, > > Erik. > > > On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Paul Birkel wrote: > >> Eric; >> >> Would you please share your firmware updates, and any other >> information that you've gleaned regarding the Vaisala SPT11A reader? >> I recently acquired one of these as well but haven't yet started on >> reverse-engineering it into something useful Would prefer to leverage >> your experience, if you please :->. >> >> Good health to You and Yours! >> >> paul >> (from Maryland, USA) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Erik >> Baigar >> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 11:42 AM >> To: jim s; cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Cc: Sherman Foy >> Subject: Re: Data General Nova Star Trek >> >> >> Hi Jim, >> >> regarding reading the StarTrek paper tapes I spent some time on the >> weekend to rework my SPT11A manual reader - I got this from an eBay >> auction and it was an accessory for some military receiver (probalby >> to read in some codes). It had a fimrwaere which refused to >> communicate with a simple terminal program, so I reverse en- gineered >> the hardware and replaced the original ROM it by an own firmware which >> simply sends the contents read from PPT to the PC via its RS232C... >> >> http://www.baigar.de/vintage/SPT11A-mod-Internal.jpg >> >> So I'd offer sending this to you as an item on loan to read in your >> tapes and you return it afterwards? I tested it with some data and it >> works well (just slowly pull the paper tape through the reader and use >> e.g. putty to log the binary serial output). After turning on the >> reader there is a short welcome message to verify the serial connection > (9600,8N1). >> >> The only question is, whether you can handle the EU style power supply >> shown in the picture... >> >> http://www.baigar.de/vintage/SPT11A-mod.jpg >> >> I ordered USB->RS232C converters and if you have some more time, I'd >> attach one of them to the reader not only doing conversion but also >> supplying the converter with power from the PC. >> Addidionally you should send me your physical address via PM so I can >> prepare for shipping... >> >> Best regards from Germany, >> >> Erik. >> >> ----- >> > From pete at pski.net Sat Apr 30 08:58:06 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 09:58:06 -0400 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> Message-ID: <1AB45159-C295-4B25-A99A-EA679E6287EB@pski.net> > On Apr 30, 2016, at 9:39 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > > Now wait a minute here. C is a very old language. When it was first written > as a recursive descent compiler, compiler technology was very primitive. > K&R style code with primitive compilers pretty much resulted in high level > assembler. Look at the keyword 'register' and the rationale given for it. > > Now on that we furiously agree. One problem has been getting that through > to people who insist that C is still a high level assembler and has > not changed from the time when it was a hand crafted recursive descent > LR to the modern compiler with all the lovely optimisations we can do. > > Diane > -- > - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db A good example from my area of vintage computing enthusiasm is the Misosys C Compiler for the TRS-80. It will compile pure K&R C into intermediate assembly language files that you would then feed into the Misosys MRAS assembly language development system just as if you were developing the assembly from scratch. Of course, the entire process is deathly slow on original hardware and the level of optimization is no where near what you could achieve with hand-written assembly, both of which are critical concerns on 2 Mhz Z80 systems for any non-trivial applications. https://archive.org/details/MC_C-Language_Compiler_1985_sys_PDF From erik at baigar.de Sat Apr 30 09:18:00 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 16:18:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: Many thanks Chris for all the interesting recollections! On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: > internally was utterly unrelated to AOS/VS; it was the software effort > that matched the Hawk/32 hardware effort (software was downstairs on the That sounds very interesting - although I do not know much about the Hawk/32 it sounds to be a very interesting machine. I do not know of anyone having one of these running, but I think some of them should be still in service. And by accident I have got a tool to load microcode onto the the Hawk/32 series: This tool is part of the test facility (I have been told, that it was called "Rolm Mother" in the factory) I got hands on and which is claimed having been used in the original factory. > relationship, most ROLM implementations, both hardware (the 16xx and > Hawk, but not the odd S/140 and MV/8000 punches) and software (ARTS, > ARTS/32) were ROLM designs. But software prior to ARTS was just copies of the DG stuff as far as I can tell from the paper tapes I have got (mainly diagnostics). > product planning"). We learned to think about fault tolerance in > somewhat atypical ways Yeah for the later machines this may be true: E.g. the BITE of the MSE14 is claimed to detect almost all problems in the CPU and I have got seen a test report which shows that some poor moron randomly soldered bridges onto the PCB board or cut wires and recorded whether the fault was detected. The result was, that more than 89 percent have been reported correctly -> This is very remarkable in my opinion. Does anyone know how this result relates to testing of modern CPUs? > because someone just sunk it or, using Terry's favorite metaphor, > "planted a local sun on it"; under suitable gamma or neutron flux all > transistors become photo transistors, which has interesting consequences > for disk drives, etc) Hmm, in the list of peripherals for the Rolm IO bus I see a "nucelar event detector" which probably forces the processor into some routine verifying its correct operation after the "local sun" event. Apart from this the earlier Rolms (1602) had indeed bugs which (according to some ECN (=engineering change notes) could lead to freezing and/or branching to wrong memory addresses). One of my 1602s is a very strange one as it contains a memory and IO protection facility realizing some form of protection to prevent critical code from getting crazy. This option consists of a special microcode realizing some form of kernel and user mode and an additional PCB in the CPU to detect access violations in core and IO - the whole thing was called APM (Access Protection Module or Mode or whatever (?)). This option is not listed in the standard IO options and to my knowledge is a very early form (dated before 1974) of such a feature ;-) > order to turn memory references into I/O requests that would be > transparently resolved in the physical memory of another machine. What form of machine-machine communication was used in this case? Was this realized using the DG data channel transfers (MCA, would be very slow for a Hawk/32 I guess) or was it implemented in some newer hardware not depending on the DG IO bus? > In a curious twist of fate, I found myself working with member of the > Hark/32 team at TAEC in the mid-late 90's. TEAC? The company we know from Audio devices and stuff like this? (Sorry for asking stupid questions!). > The 1553 interface was a very clever piece of work, but not everything > we did was that smart. It was extremely smart I must admit! I recently had two boards communication using the BCUED diagnostics and it was awesome how they sent messages, switched operation mode and changed roles (master, terminal,...). > doas 0, > skpdn > jmp .-1 Yes that is indeed a very common sequence of commands ;-) > The micro would be busy trying to make sense of the doas and be out to > lunch ;-) That really is a design flaw. Together with two colleagues I built a harddisk simulator for the Rolms and lucky as we are today we used a FPGA to realize the interfacing - so we could repair our bugs easily by modifying the firmware. There is an other similar problem with the boot code as implemented in all 160x machines: Using the EPROM card and trying to boot from it via the usual JMP .-1 located at 377 and a channel boot fails as the boot code being executed in ROM places the JMP at address 377, does the start command and than branches to 377. But the EPROM PCB is so fast, that before the CPU "arrives" at 377 the JMP .-1 is already replaced and the code fails. So one has to toggle the start command and the JMP in manually at 376 and 377 and launch it there... > "what it stood for". In what has to be one of the finer examples of > bacronym engineering, we came up with "Multiprocessor Advanced Realtime > Virtually Interconnected Network" -- and they ate it up. Very good choice of acronyms - fortunately the IT world has lot of terms which can be arranged in many ways.... Thanks again, Erik. From lars at nocrew.org Sat Apr 30 09:36:40 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 16:36:40 +0200 Subject: Forth and threading In-Reply-To: <20160429205755.E7DBBABBA91B0@bart0111.email.locaweb.com.br> (Jecel Assumpcao, Jr.'s message of "Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:57:51 -0300") References: <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <938B3C25-7B00-4295-BBFF-31A4D928A6F4@gmail.com> <20160429205755.E7DBBABBA91B0@bart0111.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <86h9ejups7.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> "Jecel Assumpcao Jr." writes: >> I liked Forth when it was still threaded. You got the DOES> feature. >> Do you still have that with the FORTH chips? > All Forth implementations are threaded, but there are several kinds: > direct, indirect, token and subroutine. Not all. Many modern Forth compilers generate optimised machine code directly. I.e. they have the usual compiler techniques such as register allocation, inlining, constant folding etc. From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 09:43:23 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:43:23 -0400 Subject: Vaisala SPT11A reader (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <01d401d19f86$845c98b0$8d15ca10$@gmail.com> <01f601d19fa2$9451c440$bcf54cc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001d1a2ee$a5d79420$f186bc60$@gmail.com> You bet. Thank you and good health! -----Original Message----- From: Erik Baigar [mailto:erik at baigar.de] Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 9:34 AM To: Paul Birkel Cc: jwsmail at jwsss.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org; shermanfoy at att.net Subject: RE: Vaisala SPT11A reader (was Data General Nova Star Trek) On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Paul Birkel wrote: > Thanks Erik; very helpful. For reference, mine also shares the same > firmware revision. Can you share your source code as well? Upon request I added the firmware files to operate the SPT11A paper tape reader (together with the source code, V1.01, sdcc) to the special service section on my server: http://www.baigar.de/specials.html#Service2016 Use is without warranty and at own risk - credits and link to my pages are welcome ;-) Enjoy, Erik. > -----Original Message----- > From: Erik Baigar [mailto:erik at baigar.de] > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 5:33 AM > To: Paul Birkel > Cc: jwsmail at jwsss.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org; shermanfoy at att.net > Subject: Vaisala SPT11A reader (was Data General Nova Star Trek) > > > Dear Paul, > > thanks for your email - I acquired the reader several years ago and > did quite a lot of experiments to figure out how to use it with the > original firmware SPTS11, 2.02, 5289 but I never got an answer from > the reader. So the project of Jim to read in the DG tapes was the > reason I needed to address this issue. For your (and the communities) > convenience I placed the original firmware (27C256 type EPROM)... > > http://www.baigar.de/electronics/PTR-SPTS11-2.02-5289.bin > > ...and my new one (also 27C256)... > > http://www.baigar.de/electronics/PTR-SPTS11-EB1.01.hex > > ...onto my server. My new firmware just sends out the data read via > the serial port at 9600, 8N1. A welcome messages tests the serial > communication on starting and during this time the red LED is on. > On getting ready the green LED takes over and the yellow one shows the > state of the sprocket input: For each byte read this LED flashes. At > 9600 the serial port is always faster than you can pull the tape > through the reader, so I do not expect the red LED (indicate a buffer > overflow, byte lost) come on during normal operation... > > The pinout of the Sub-D9 male plug is as usual on serial ports: > 5: GND, 2: Data from reader to PC, 3: Data from PC to reader (not used > in my firmware, but original expects some start/config command here) > additionally > 7: DC input to reader (in my case 9V). > > Hope this helps, > > best regards, > > Erik. > > > On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Paul Birkel wrote: > >> Eric; >> >> Would you please share your firmware updates, and any other >> information that you've gleaned regarding the Vaisala SPT11A reader? >> I recently acquired one of these as well but haven't yet started on >> reverse-engineering it into something useful Would prefer to >> leverage your experience, if you please :->. >> >> Good health to You and Yours! >> >> paul >> (from Maryland, USA) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Erik >> Baigar >> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 11:42 AM >> To: jim s; cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Cc: Sherman Foy >> Subject: Re: Data General Nova Star Trek >> >> >> Hi Jim, >> >> regarding reading the StarTrek paper tapes I spent some time on the >> weekend to rework my SPT11A manual reader - I got this from an eBay >> auction and it was an accessory for some military receiver (probalby >> to read in some codes). It had a fimrwaere which refused to >> communicate with a simple terminal program, so I reverse en- gineered >> the hardware and replaced the original ROM it by an own firmware >> which simply sends the contents read from PPT to the PC via its RS232C... >> >> http://www.baigar.de/vintage/SPT11A-mod-Internal.jpg >> >> So I'd offer sending this to you as an item on loan to read in your >> tapes and you return it afterwards? I tested it with some data and it >> works well (just slowly pull the paper tape through the reader and >> use e.g. putty to log the binary serial output). After turning on the >> reader there is a short welcome message to verify the serial >> connection > (9600,8N1). >> >> The only question is, whether you can handle the EU style power >> supply shown in the picture... >> >> http://www.baigar.de/vintage/SPT11A-mod.jpg >> >> I ordered USB->RS232C converters and if you have some more time, I'd >> attach one of them to the reader not only doing conversion but also >> supplying the converter with power from the PC. >> Addidionally you should send me your physical address via PM so I can >> prepare for shipping... >> >> Best regards from Germany, >> >> Erik. >> >> ----- >> > From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 12:53:40 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 11:53:40 -0600 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 7:39 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > Now on that we furiously agree. One problem has been getting that through > to people who insist that C is still a high level assembler and has > not changed from the time when it was a hand crafted recursive descent > LR to the modern compiler with all the lovely optimisations we can do. Sure, the compilers are way better than they were back then. That doesn't make the language itself any higher level. The semantic level of the language and the level of abstraction it provides have barely changed, so the language itself is still a mostly portable substitute for assembly language. As Chuck points out, it isn't a good substitute for any particular CISC assembly language, but then those aren't portable at all. From db at db.net Sat Apr 30 13:43:59 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 14:43:59 -0400 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20160430184359.GA99555@night.db.net> On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 11:53:40AM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 7:39 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > > Now on that we furiously agree. One problem has been getting that through > > to people who insist that C is still a high level assembler and has > > not changed from the time when it was a hand crafted recursive descent > > LR to the modern compiler with all the lovely optimisations we can do. > > Sure, the compilers are way better than they were back then. That > doesn't make the language itself any higher level. The semantic level To be clear, I never said it did make it any higher level. > of the language and the level of abstraction it provides have barely > changed, so the language itself is still a mostly portable substitute We have for all but specialized applications taken the procrustean approach and our processors mostly have started to fit the language. I remember being related a story from when I was working for CDC Canada of a Unix port that was done for one of the Cybers. They essentially emulated a PDP-11 then ported unix on top of that. *shudder* Oddly, C is not a good fit for the Transputer. > for assembly language. As Chuck points out, it isn't a good substitute > for any particular CISC assembly language, but then those aren't > portable at all. Also to be clear, I also agreed with that statement. Are we talking at cross purposes or what? My point is simple. We cannot use the same outdated ideas we used to use for 'C' that we used 40 years ago today. Compilers have improved. Know your tools. And that's all I have said. > Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sat Apr 30 14:28:35 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 12:28:35 -0700 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <20160430184359.GA99555@night.db.net> References: <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> <20160430184359.GA99555@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Apr 30, 2016, at 11:43 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > > We cannot use the same outdated ideas we used to use for 'C' > that we used 40 years ago today. Compilers have improved. > Know your tools. And that's all I have said. In support of this, I?d encourage everyone who works with C to read Chris Lattner?s ?What Every C Programmer Should Know About Undefined Behavior? series from the LLVM blog: http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know.html http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know_14.html http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know_21.html C has fairly well-defined semantics, they just aren?t necessarily what you think they are, and optimizers are taking advantage of them (under the ?as if? rule) such that a developer?s idea of what assembly a specific section of C code should generate is not all that accurate these days. -- Chris From db at db.net Sat Apr 30 14:44:25 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 15:44:25 -0400 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> <20160430184359.GA99555@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20160430194425.GB110@night.db.net> On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 12:28:35PM -0700, Chris Hanson wrote: > On Apr 30, 2016, at 11:43 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > > > > We cannot use the same outdated ideas we used to use for 'C' > > that we used 40 years ago today. Compilers have improved. > > Know your tools. And that's all I have said. > > In support of this, I?d encourage everyone who works with C to read Chris Lattner?s ?What Every C Programmer Should Know About Undefined Behavior? series from the LLVM blog: > > http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know.html > http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know_14.html > http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know_21.html Yes, it's an excellent series. > > C has fairly well-defined semantics, they just aren?t necessarily what you think they are, and optimizers are taking advantage of them (under the ?as if? rule) such that a developer?s idea of what assembly a specific section of C code should generate is not all that accurate these days. > Indeed. > -- Chris > > Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Apr 30 16:07:08 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 17:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> <20160430184359.GA99555@night.db.net> Message-ID: <201604302107.RAA04188@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > In support of this, I???d encourage everyone who works with C to read Chris $ > http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know.html > http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know_14.html > http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know_21.html Reading this really gives me the impression that it's time to fork C. There seems to me to be a need for two different languages, which I might slightly inaccurately call the one C used to be and the one it has become (and is becoming). The first is the "high-level assembly" language, the one that's suitable for things like embedded programming in what C99 calls a standalone environment, kernel and low-level library implementations, and the like, where you want to do whatever's reasonable from the point of view of someone who knows the target machine architecture, even if it's formally undefined by the language. The second is more the language the author of those posts is talking about, where the compiler is allowed to do surprising things for the sake of performance. The zero_array example slightly bothers me, because the optimization into a memset is valid only when floating-point zero is all-bits-zero; while this is something the compiler can know, and is true on "all" machines, the way it's written doesn't call it out as a machine-dependent optimization, quite possibly leading people to write the memset themselves in such cases, producing a different bug. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Apr 30 16:07:50 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 17:07:50 -0400 Subject: C on Transputer - was Re: Programming language failings In-Reply-To: <20160430184359.GA99555@night.db.net> References: <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> <20160430184359.GA99555@night.db.net> Message-ID: <286c0beb-f648-f557-ed68-810690072cd1@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-04-30 2:43 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > ... > Oddly, C is not a good fit for the Transputer. > Can you be more specific? I had no problems programming Transputers in C. All the usual hardware facilities were available from C. The compiler was of high quality and I ported some large programs to it. --Toby From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 30 16:20:26 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 14:20:26 -0700 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <201604302107.RAA04188@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> <20160430184359.GA99555@night.db.net> <201604302107.RAA04188@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5725219A.1070103@sydex.com> On 04/30/2016 02:07 PM, Mouse wrote: > Reading this really gives me the impression that it's time to fork > C. There seems to me to be a need for two different languages, which > I might slightly inaccurately call the one C used to be and the one > it has become (and is becoming). I vividly recall back in the 80s trying to take what we learned about aggressive optimization of Fortran (or FORTRAN, take your pick) and apply it to C. One of the tougher nuts was the issue of pointers. While pointers are typed in C (including void), it's very difficult for an automatic optimizer to figure out exactly what's being pointed to, particularly when a pointer is passed as arguments or re-used. C++, to be sure, is much better in this respect. --Chuck From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sat Apr 30 17:08:04 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 15:08:04 -0700 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <201604302107.RAA04188@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> <20160430184359.GA99555@night.db.net> <201604302107.RAA04188@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50ED10BB-7860-49F6-9DA8-3EB7003FE19D@eschatologist.net> On Apr 30, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Mouse wrote: > > Reading this really gives me the impression that it's time to fork C. > There seems to me to be a need for two different languages, which I > might slightly inaccurately call the one C used to be and the one it > has become (and is becoming). > > The first is the "high-level assembly" language, the one that's > suitable for things like embedded programming in what C99 calls a > standalone environment, kernel and low-level library implementations, > and the like, where you want to do whatever's reasonable from the point > of view of someone who knows the target machine architecture, even if > it's formally undefined by the language. > > The second is more the language the author of those posts is talking > about, where the compiler is allowed to do surprising things for the > sake of performance. The author of those posts is the creator and lead developer of LLVM, clang, and Swift, and I think he would argue that the second case is also best served by the compiler in the first case, because you absolutely want the best performance and code size possible. I'll note too that people are working in progressively more back ends for LLVM & clang for embedded uses. -- Chris From db at db.net Sat Apr 30 17:13:43 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 18:13:43 -0400 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <201604302107.RAA04188@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> <20160430184359.GA99555@night.db.net> <201604302107.RAA04188@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160430221343.GA1065@night.db.net> On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 05:07:08PM -0400, Mouse wrote: > > In support of this, I???d encourage everyone who works with C to read Chris $ > > > http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know.html > > http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know_14.html > > http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know_21.html > > Reading this really gives me the impression that it's time to fork C. > There seems to me to be a need for two different languages, which I > might slightly inaccurately call the one C used to be and the one it > has become (and is becoming). It has been effectively forked for a long time. Same name. Look at Fortran II vs. more modern Fortran. The pain of counting characters for the H command... ugh. Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From schoedel at kw.igs.net Sat Apr 30 17:24:50 2016 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 18:24:50 -0400 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: References: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: At 10:39 ?pm +1000 2016/04/29, steven at malikoff.com wrote: >I'm puzzled about the notion >of 'o' not being a perfect circle as I found it to be quite so, at least >on the masthead. When I did this originally I worked from document scans from Bitsavers, and became convinced from those that the bowls were a little narrower than perfect circles: . Since then I've got a paper copy of one of the handbooks, so I went today to get a high-resolution look, and now I agree that they *are* circles, or intended to be, and the models I used must have been distorted in printing or scanning: . -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 30 17:49:15 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 23:49:15 +0100 Subject: Calling all typographers In-Reply-To: References: <20160428140705.M8052@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <88a6b167-5257-6120-ac0a-b83894235047@btinternet.com> I think you have to look at things in the context of the time. There was little or no CAD and books were done with photo typesetters (very expensive) Each page was a kind of photograph called a bromide Non standard things like logos where also stored on a bromide. Quite often if you wanted to add a symbol or logo to a page or a drawing you could go through a process to get a copy from a master and stick it on the page (real cut and paste) or dig out your micrometer and draw it using your normal black ink drawing pens. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood On 30/04/2016 23:24, Kevin Schoedel wrote: > At 10:39 ?pm +1000 2016/04/29, steven at malikoff.com wrote: >> I'm puzzled about the notion >> of 'o' not being a perfect circle as I found it to be quite so, at least >> on the masthead. > When I did this originally I worked from document scans from Bitsavers, and > became convinced from those that the bowls were a little narrower than > perfect circles: . > > Since then I've got a paper copy of one of the handbooks, so I went today > to get a high-resolution look, and now I agree that they *are* circles, or > intended to be, and the models I used must have been distorted in printing > or scanning: . > From useddec at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 17:50:39 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 17:50:39 -0500 Subject: OFF TOPIC!!! Any alumni of NYU here? Message-ID: If so, can you please contact me off list? Thanks, Paul From spc at conman.org Sat Apr 30 18:31:11 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 19:31:11 -0400 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <5725219A.1070103@sydex.com> References: <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> <20160430184359.GA99555@night.db.net> <201604302107.RAA04188@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5725219A.1070103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20160430233111.GE18197@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > On 04/30/2016 02:07 PM, Mouse wrote: > > > Reading this really gives me the impression that it's time to fork > > C. There seems to me to be a need for two different languages, which > > I might slightly inaccurately call the one C used to be and the one > > it has become (and is becoming). > > > I vividly recall back in the 80s trying to take what we learned about > aggressive optimization of Fortran (or FORTRAN, take your pick) and > apply it to C. One of the tougher nuts was the issue of pointers. > While pointers are typed in C (including void), it's very difficult for > an automatic optimizer to figure out exactly what's being pointed to, > particularly when a pointer is passed as arguments or re-used. I believe that's what the C99 keyword "restrict" is meant to address. -spc From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sat Apr 30 21:22:41 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 19:22:41 -0700 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL Message-ID: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> Has anyone used any modern hardware to interface with HP-HIL gear? (HIL is Human Interface Link, not to be confused with HP-IL.) I?d like to interface an HP 46085A Control Dial Box with my Mac via USB. But before I go any further in this?I?ve already put a bunch of effort into trying to get it to work?I realized I should probably ask here to see if anyone else has done it. Has anyone? HP-HIL uses what *should* be a pretty basic serial protocol with available docs. (Thanks, Bitsavers!) The only odd things about it are (1) a data rate of 100Kbps (rather than say 115Kbps) and (2) the use of 12/O/1 framing (rather than say two 8/E/1 frames per packet and (3) a 12V supply line for what?s otherwise a TTL-compatible bus. Getting the actual host interface IC is just about impossible without removing it from existing equipment, and the client interface IC doesn?t really seem like it would act as a host. The weird framing means virtually no common UART will work, and the data rate means something like an Arduino only has 160 cycles/bit to work with. It looks like I might be looking at either using either an Arduino or a CPLD to implement a 12/O/1 UART to talk to the control dial box, and using a second Arduino to communicate with that (via a parallel interface) to actually implement the USB HID via the builtin HID stack functionality on some models of Arduino. -- Chris From rtomek at ceti.pl Sat Apr 30 21:23:59 2016 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 04:23:59 +0200 Subject: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from]] In-Reply-To: References: <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201604271553.LAA18867@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160427170225.GC20423@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20160501022359.GA24342@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:07:34AM -0700, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > [...] > > Just look into the political machinations of what was known as FidoNet to > >see how this could end up. > > > What IS known as FidoNet (1:138/142 here. :) ) and it's still a > political shit-show, mostly due to people from Zone 2. *sigh* Pardon my ignorant question but is there a place on the net where I could read some more about it? Or maybe it is short enough to explain here? And on-topic: I have some memories about reading my email by dialing up special account on my uni (decades ago) with 14.4k ISA modem under DOS, without hardware error correction. Hw e. c. was too costly for me and I naively believed I could get away with cheaper modem. Phone lines in Poland at that time (mid 1990ies) were rather shitty - apart from lots of noise the only telecom operator in a country used to put few end users on same pair of wires (or something like this), which reduced available bandwith even more. So I dialed up that account, choose a system to log in and logged in, typed mailx, read quickly quickly quickly. If I was lucky, I could read what I wanted (short mail from fellow student about project progress and the like) before some electric crack sent my modem into stupor. Sometimes it did not disconnect properly and I had to manually pick up a phone to help it. I believe I used... control software that came with modem, if memory serves. It allowed me to actually see a stream coming from the modem. Ugly, some characters mangled. Was meant to dial BBSes. ATDT and off we go. Or on. Later on, my troubles somehow vanished because I learned how to use ppp from Linux to connect to other dialup number set up by the same monopolistic operator (who thus became country wide ISP). Much better. Hangups were very rare even with the same cheap modem, even if bandwith was shared with few neighbors... I disliked them anyway because they charged for every two minutes, no night tariffe, no local tariffe, nothing like this. Linux was a real blessing at that time [1], a natural upgrade path for someone who got a lick of multitasking on Amiga and upgraded to university SunOS workstation (with short episode on VAX, where I used to grab two neighboring terminals to edit on one and compile on another). I used to amuse myself about poor folks working at PC computers, when general Failure prompted them to abort or retry, or if they dared so, to fail. I have also bought me a better modem, external Zoom 56K, but even this one could not perform at maximal speed because of sharing wire, again. Few years later I took revenge on my telecom and switched to ADSL, 256kbps. It is 30Mbps now, after a series of upgrades. Or maybe 60Mbps? I somehow do not care so much anymore... Iso images come down the wire really fast, though. Now, thanks to double NAT (one in my router, one in theirs and third one somewhere nearby, if I read traceroute etc correctly) I do not think about running any services locally. Besides I believe it would have been great PITA and mostly done for showing up, because I do not even have a website (or anything justyfing setting one up). I miss gopher and archie, used them a lot back in days of modem (but not when dialing up, obviously). I also miss internet without javascript and with manually written pages optimized to load fast. A new strange, or normal, way to read stuff is now in terminal emulator, mutt over ssh. Nothing really strange. It was much stranger when I could not ssh (for whatever reason) and had to check mail via webmail. I am a compulsive email reader and use to hoard few thousand a month (around 10 if that interests anybody) - I do not think my computer ever heard so much swearing as during those long moments of waiting for server to show me sorted list of my emails... [1] However, given how things evolve, I somehow wish I tried BSD. I became so entrenched into Linux, that migration is a not so trivial adventure. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Apr 30 21:43:51 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 19:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from]] In-Reply-To: <20160501022359.GA24342@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201604271553.LAA18867@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160427170225.GC20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160501022359.GA24342@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 May 2016, Tomasz Rola wrote: > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:07:34AM -0700, geneb wrote: >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: >> > [...] >>> Just look into the political machinations of what was known as FidoNet to >>> see how this could end up. >>> >> What IS known as FidoNet (1:138/142 here. :) ) and it's still a >> political shit-show, mostly due to people from Zone 2. *sigh* > > Pardon my ignorant question but is there a place on the net where I > could read some more about it? Or maybe it is short enough to explain > here? > Books could be written about it unfortunately, One of the more annoying aspects is Bjorn Felten, the current editor of FidoNews - he's refused repeated requests to pass on his editor duties for various reasons and he's refused - for at least the last 10 years. Find a telnetable BBS that's a member of FidoNet and start reading the FidoNews echo for a taste of the insanity. The Fido Sysop (FNSYSOP) is also a pretty deranged place. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 22:19:28 2016 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 23:19:28 -0400 Subject: VCF XI pictures Message-ID: Excellent pictures from Vintage Computer Festival XI: Wht an ENIAC? Vintage-vintage I guess! http://enews.techrepublic.com/ct/35098113:WumutjYmN:m:1:714261601:9FFAF36F522EBD59342CC54F8F85CF5D:r:100091154 Happy computing. Murray :) From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 30 23:05:31 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 05:05:31 +0100 Subject: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from]] In-Reply-To: References: <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201604271553.LAA18867@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160427170225.GC20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160501022359.GA24342@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <4374b2c0-374a-ddc9-8e9a-4c757952ebee@btinternet.com> That's interesting I had a FidoBBs back in 1983 No 33 Written by a guy called Tom Jennings in C. I had a BT modem type 2B (about the size of a small suitcase) I modified it to auto answer. In addition it would dial out at 03:00 to exchange mail at 300baud There was a version for DEC Rainbow and I was working for DEC at the time. I asked if i could have one to replace the VT100 on my desk and try out any software. My boss said "sure - get a couple nobody wants them any way" I trot off to the stores and ask. They say Oh yeah there's load of pallets of them over there. Promotional stock - nobody wants them no DEC operating system. How many do you want? he asks Two says I. He says I'll go and get the fork lift. Er no - not two pallets full - just two boxes !! Rod Smallwood On 01/05/2016 03:43, geneb wrote: > On Sun, 1 May 2016, Tomasz Rola wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:07:34AM -0700, geneb wrote: >>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: >>> >> [...] >>>> Just look into the political machinations of what was known as >>>> FidoNet to >>>> see how this could end up. >>>> >>> What IS known as FidoNet (1:138/142 here. :) ) and it's still a >>> political shit-show, mostly due to people from Zone 2. *sigh* >> >> Pardon my ignorant question but is there a place on the net where I >> could read some more about it? Or maybe it is short enough to explain >> here? >> > Books could be written about it unfortunately, One of the more > annoying aspects is Bjorn Felten, the current editor of FidoNews - > he's refused repeated requests to pass on his editor duties for > various reasons and he's refused - for at least the last 10 years. > Find a telnetable BBS that's a member of FidoNet and start reading the > FidoNews echo for a taste of the insanity. The Fido Sysop (FNSYSOP) > is also a pretty deranged place. > > g. > > From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Apr 30 23:21:40 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 23:21:40 -0500 Subject: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from]] In-Reply-To: <4374b2c0-374a-ddc9-8e9a-4c757952ebee@btinternet.com> References: <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201604271553.LAA18867@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160427170225.GC20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160501022359.GA24342@tau1.ceti.pl> <4374b2c0-374a-ddc9-8e9a-4c757952ebee@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20160501042140.GA14743@lonesome.com> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 05:05:31AM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote: > He says I'll go and get the fork lift. Er no - not two pallets full - just > two boxes !! Great story. mcl From macro at linux-mips.org Sat Apr 30 11:36:37 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 17:36:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > It turns out that I only needed to flip the bit in the bank 8 config > register and I can now access the flashbus. I can write to the LEDs, it > turns out that writing a 0 turns the LED on, rather than off, which is why I > thought it hadn't worked. Oh, I thought you would try 0x55 or suchlike pattern -- given that you did not know whether it is active-high or active-low logic being used by the circuit. And active-low is actually what I'd expect here given that you get all the LEDs lit at reset. > I can now do test code for the NVRAM, I will start with repeated reads to > see if I get different values on different occasions. Then I will save it > and write patterns etc. It may be a checksum that is failing of course. Or > the DROM itself, which I can't verify until I get the PLCC adapter for my > PROM programmer and someone else to read their DROM. I just hope it's not a heisenbug of some sort and with NVRAM supposedly now eliminated as the cause it is DROM contents indeed. The DROM part at least can be fixed without soldering, which is always a bit of a challenge with finer pitch components. > Thanks for all the help I have a way forward for a little while now. > Although anyone with one of these machines who could read the DROM would be > helpful. I will be able to supply a VMS program to read it, so need to > remove it from the machine or to have a programmer. You are welcome! Good luck tracking down a DROM image soon -- that's beyond me I'm afraid, I only have TURBOchannel stuff really. Maciej From j_hoppe at t-online.de Sat Apr 30 14:04:35 2016 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:04:35 +0200 Subject: Photorealistic PDP-11/20 panel for SimH Message-ID: <5958989b-af04-bcf3-6993-6d334ee2552b@t-online.de> Another Java panel simulation for BlinkenBone is there, the classic PDP-11/20. In function and style it fills the gap between the PDP-8 and the later PDP-11's. The GitHub distribution starts the 1970 Paper-tape BASIC, download here: https://github.com/j-hoppe/BlinkenBone/releases Info http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/simulated-panels/253-blinkenbone-simulated-pdp-11-20-panel and next page. Now we have PDP-8/I, PDP-11/20, PDP-11/40, PDP-11/70 and PDP-10/KI10. Not to mention the PiDP8 replica and soon the PiDP11. Joerg From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 30 11:59:09 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 18:59:09 +0200 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Just spotted a typo in my email. If anyone has a known good AlphaStation 200 I will be able to supply a VMS program to read the DROM, and there is *no* need to take the DROM chip out and *no* need to have a programmer. Just VMS running on the box. If anyone can help with this please get in touch. Thanks Rob Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Maciej W. Rozycki Sent: 30 April 2016 18:36 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > It turns out that I only needed to flip the bit in the bank 8 config > register and I can now access the flashbus. I can write to the LEDs, it > turns out that writing a 0 turns the LED on, rather than off, which is why I > thought it hadn't worked. Oh, I thought you would try 0x55 or suchlike pattern -- given that you did not know whether it is active-high or active-low logic being used by the circuit. And active-low is actually what I'd expect here given that you get all the LEDs lit at reset. > I can now do test code for the NVRAM, I will start with repeated reads to > see if I get different values on different occasions. Then I will save it > and write patterns etc. It may be a checksum that is failing of course. Or > the DROM itself, which I can't verify until I get the PLCC adapter for my > PROM programmer and someone else to read their DROM. I just hope it's not a heisenbug of some sort and with NVRAM supposedly now eliminated as the cause it is DROM contents indeed. The DROM part at least can be fixed without soldering, which is always a bit of a challenge with finer pitch components. > Thanks for all the help I have a way forward for a little while now. > Although anyone with one of these machines who could read the DROM would be > helpful. I will be able to supply a VMS program to read it, so need to > remove it from the machine or to have a programmer. You are welcome! Good luck tracking down a DROM image soon -- that's beyond me I'm afraid, I only have TURBOchannel stuff really. Maciej