From rdooley at shaw.ca Mon Jun 1 00:19:42 2015
From: rdooley at shaw.ca (Rod)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 22:19:42 -0700
Subject: PDP 11/44 for sale
In-Reply-To: <556BD643.1030304@compsys.to>
References: <000301d09a4a$b21f7d90$165e78b0$@ca> <556BD643.1030304@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <000901d09c2a$91931780$b4b94680$@ca>
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H.
Fine
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 8:49 PM
To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts
Subject: Re: PDP 11/44 for sale
>Rod wrote:
>I have been on this list for a long time as a reader and wanted to give
>the list a heads up on this system before
>
>doing anything else in case somebody wants it and can pick it up.
>
>--
>
>Cabinet 1:
>Quickware Engineering QED-95 CPU replacement
>2- TU-58 tape drives
>
>Cabinet 2:
>BA11-KW
>RX02 floppies
>
>Cabinet 3:
>2- RL02 disk drives
>1-MDI 76-contains 1 Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HD
>
>Cabinet 4:
>2-RL02 disk drives
>1-MDI 276-contains two Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HDs
>
>I am asking US$3000.00 for the four cabinets. I can't guarantee
>anything but it was turned off working fine.
>
>The buyer would have the option of buying up to 18 RL02K-DC data carts
>for
>US$25 each
>
>Shipping is probably not an option they are about 300lbs + each
>
>I am located in Kelowna BC Canada about 3hrs north of Spokane Washington..
>Preference would have to go to someone that could come and get it.
>
>Pictures are here
>
>http://photoshare.shaw.ca/view/32499942349-1432868285-94725/0
>
>Rod
>
>Rdooley at shaw dot ca
>
My son has a trailer and could pick it up for me.
Is there any possibility of turning on the system and checking if it boots?
Which Operating System was being used before it was turned off? How long
ago was the system run? Where has it been stored? Do you have any
terminals? Should he bring one with him? Would a VT100 be satisfactory?
Jerome Fine
Hi Jerome
The system was running RSX11M+, and it was used as an RMCS. It had about 6
terminals on it and was gathering data from about 10 sites.
I was shut down in 2000 and I have had it since then. It has been in my
garage the whole time. There have been no rodents or anything.
I used the RMCS but didn't do any of the work on the system. As far as I
know the cables were unplugged and put into each cabinet.
One of the MDI disks was taken from cabinet 3 by someone I don't know
whether it was a MDI 76 or 276. I don't have any terminals
That I would be sure works as I never tried to get it going again.
It also had two RK07 attached to it that I couldn't get.
I do have some spare cards and the original cpu cards that would go with it.
It would be a bit of a project to start it up I guess, I don't know which
disk it boots off, hopefully not the that's missing.
Rod
From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Mon Jun 1 02:45:21 2015
From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 17:45:21 +1000
Subject: Apple I gets tossed out for recycling
Message-ID: <556C0D91.3070202@yahoo.com.au>
Have people seen the news a Apple I gets tossed out for recycling
the recycler is going to give her $100,000 half of the $200,000
--
tom sparks
x86? We ain't got no x86. We don't need no stinking x86!
From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 1 03:33:26 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 09:33:26 +0100
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <1A1D9A54-BCC1-4A7A-BEB3-BD034807C929@gmail.com>
References:
<1A1D9A54-BCC1-4A7A-BEB3-BD034807C929@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010501d09c45$a1794460$e46bcd20$@ntlworld.com>
Yes, the new rubber hammers are available from David Tumey. I think he wants
about $7 for 10 of them. I have a supply of them here in the UK for anyone
that needs any.
Regards
Rob
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cory
> Heisterkamp
> Sent: 31 May 2015 15:48
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
>
> Michael,
>
> Sounds like you're making some real progress. Next time you're near the
> ASR33, check the rubber hammer for the print cylinder. These have a
tendency
> to self destruct and in doing so, destroy the cylinder itself...and they
can go at
> anytime. There's a fellow on the Greenkeys that has tooled up and is
producing
> replacements; same profile as the original and easy to install. Cheap
insurance,
> really. -C
>
>
> On May 31, 2015, at 8:08 AM, Michael Thompson wrote:
>
> > We spent some time on the console Teletype that came with the PDP-12.
> > The platen was nearly impossible to move, so the Line Feed did not
> > work. We removed the platen, and found that the plastic in the bearing
> > area had swollen and was binding. We sanded, cleaned, and lubricate
> > the bearing surface and the platen now turns freely. On reassembly we
> > found that none of the Control Characters like Line Feed or Bell would
> > work in Local Mode. We fiddled for quite a while, but did not find a
> > problem. We speculated that something got bent when it could not move
the
> binding platen.
> >
> > We found a bad SN7474 E13 on the M706 Teletype Receiver flip-chip from
> > the PDP-12. We will repair and test it next week.
> >
> > We borrowed the M706 Teletype receiver from the PDP-8/I and connected
> > the Teletype to the PDP-12. We loaded and ran a toggle-in program that
> > echos the keyboard to the printer. We were a little surprised when
> > everything in the Teletype worked OK. We were even more surprised when
> > the Teletype now worked correctly in local mode.
> >
> > We borrowed the console cable from the PDP-8/I and connected my laptop
> > to the PDP-12. The terminal emulator worked correctly and echoed
> > characters to the PDP-12 and back.
> >
> > We toggled in the RIM loader and then loaded the LBAA BIN loader from
> > my laptop. We ran the BIN loader and loaded and ran the PDP-8/I
> > Instruction Test #1. It actually works OK!
> >
> > We tried twice to load MAINDEC-8I-D02B-D Instruction Test #2, but
> > failed both times. Running that diagnostic and others will be the
> > project for next week.
> >
> > Al Kossow posted LOTS of PDP-12 manuals to Bitsavers. One manual
> > includes the allowable ripple for the power supplies. They allow
> > 3,000mV of ripple on the -30V supply for the core memory, so I guess
> > that the 180mV that we measured two weeks ago is OK.
> >
> > On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Michael Thompson <
> > michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Today we pulled all of the M113 flip-chips and tested them because
> >> SN7474 and SN7400 ICs seem to be a problem in these early DEC
> >> systems. The ones in slots J33 and K30 were bad. Replacing them fixed
> >> the problem with the JMP instruction. We did some more testing with
> >> the toggle-in programs and found that ISZ cleared the AC. Replacing
> >> the M119 in slot H28 fixed that. All of the toggle-in tests pass, so
the
> processor is substantially functional.
> >>
> >> Core memory in field 1 with addresses X5XX didn't work. We replaced
> >> the
> >> G221 in slot D10 to fix that.
> >>
> >> We tried the ASR33 Teletype that came with the system. The mechanics
> >> were sticky from not being used for 30 years, but we got most of it
> >> free and working. We could send characters to the Teletype, but could
> >> not receive anything. The M706 receiver failed in the board tester.
> >> The spare is also broken, so we need to fix both.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Michael Thompson
From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 1 03:33:26 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 09:33:26 +0100
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <1A1D9A54-BCC1-4A7A-BEB3-BD034807C929@gmail.com>
References:
<1A1D9A54-BCC1-4A7A-BEB3-BD034807C929@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010501d09c45$a1794460$e46bcd20$@ntlworld.com>
Yes, the new rubber hammers are available from David Tumey. I think he wants
about $7 for 10 of them. I have a supply of them here in the UK for anyone
that needs any.
Regards
Rob
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cory
> Heisterkamp
> Sent: 31 May 2015 15:48
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
>
> Michael,
>
> Sounds like you're making some real progress. Next time you're near the
> ASR33, check the rubber hammer for the print cylinder. These have a
tendency
> to self destruct and in doing so, destroy the cylinder itself...and they
can go at
> anytime. There's a fellow on the Greenkeys that has tooled up and is
producing
> replacements; same profile as the original and easy to install. Cheap
insurance,
> really. -C
>
>
> On May 31, 2015, at 8:08 AM, Michael Thompson wrote:
>
> > We spent some time on the console Teletype that came with the PDP-12.
> > The platen was nearly impossible to move, so the Line Feed did not
> > work. We removed the platen, and found that the plastic in the bearing
> > area had swollen and was binding. We sanded, cleaned, and lubricate
> > the bearing surface and the platen now turns freely. On reassembly we
> > found that none of the Control Characters like Line Feed or Bell would
> > work in Local Mode. We fiddled for quite a while, but did not find a
> > problem. We speculated that something got bent when it could not move
the
> binding platen.
> >
> > We found a bad SN7474 E13 on the M706 Teletype Receiver flip-chip from
> > the PDP-12. We will repair and test it next week.
> >
> > We borrowed the M706 Teletype receiver from the PDP-8/I and connected
> > the Teletype to the PDP-12. We loaded and ran a toggle-in program that
> > echos the keyboard to the printer. We were a little surprised when
> > everything in the Teletype worked OK. We were even more surprised when
> > the Teletype now worked correctly in local mode.
> >
> > We borrowed the console cable from the PDP-8/I and connected my laptop
> > to the PDP-12. The terminal emulator worked correctly and echoed
> > characters to the PDP-12 and back.
> >
> > We toggled in the RIM loader and then loaded the LBAA BIN loader from
> > my laptop. We ran the BIN loader and loaded and ran the PDP-8/I
> > Instruction Test #1. It actually works OK!
> >
> > We tried twice to load MAINDEC-8I-D02B-D Instruction Test #2, but
> > failed both times. Running that diagnostic and others will be the
> > project for next week.
> >
> > Al Kossow posted LOTS of PDP-12 manuals to Bitsavers. One manual
> > includes the allowable ripple for the power supplies. They allow
> > 3,000mV of ripple on the -30V supply for the core memory, so I guess
> > that the 180mV that we measured two weeks ago is OK.
> >
> > On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Michael Thompson <
> > michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Today we pulled all of the M113 flip-chips and tested them because
> >> SN7474 and SN7400 ICs seem to be a problem in these early DEC
> >> systems. The ones in slots J33 and K30 were bad. Replacing them fixed
> >> the problem with the JMP instruction. We did some more testing with
> >> the toggle-in programs and found that ISZ cleared the AC. Replacing
> >> the M119 in slot H28 fixed that. All of the toggle-in tests pass, so
the
> processor is substantially functional.
> >>
> >> Core memory in field 1 with addresses X5XX didn't work. We replaced
> >> the
> >> G221 in slot D10 to fix that.
> >>
> >> We tried the ASR33 Teletype that came with the system. The mechanics
> >> were sticky from not being used for 30 years, but we got most of it
> >> free and working. We could send characters to the Teletype, but could
> >> not receive anything. The M706 receiver failed in the board tester.
> >> The spare is also broken, so we need to fix both.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Michael Thompson
From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jun 1 04:03:26 2015
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 11:03:26 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <556A01A5.6090503@email.wustl.edu>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
,
<5569F3BA.6050008@sydex.com>
<556A01A5.6090503@email.wustl.edu>
Message-ID:
On Sat, 30 May 2015, Jon Elson wrote:
>> Is there a good reason why filament lamps were used on minicomputer
>> front panels until the mid 1970s? Things like the PDP11/45, Philips P850,
>> etc
>> all used filament bulbs, not LEDs.
>>
> Inertia! The 11/45 was designed before LEDs were available, and so they
> never changed. To do it right, the PC board would have to be re-designed to
Hold on! Most 11/45 have LED frontpanels (such as mine from 1974). The
earlierst ones might have bulbs, but they switched to LEDs during
production.
Christian
From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Jun 1 03:18:47 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 10:18:47 +0200
Subject: Datasaab D12
Message-ID: <20150601081847.GA26365@Update.UU.SE>
Hi
Yesterday I picked up a Datasaab D12. Which I didn't know
existed until then. Pictures here:
http://imgur.com/a/vPTZw
It's a small desktop computer intended for small business
accounting and invoicing. It's built arround an intel 4004 and
has room for expansion cards for memory and "customer roms".
The service guide mentions a "two level" environment with a
"basic" level and a "customer program" level. I'm hoping it
means there is a Basic interpreter but I'm not convinced. The
manual also mentions a "D12 assembler" as the develoment
environment. It's apparently a subsystem that comes in a nice
attache case:
http://imgur.com/QQUrcGh
It's actually made by Facit and may go under that name.
Does anyone know more or have manuals?
Regards, Pontus.
From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Mon Jun 1 09:46:12 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 07:46:12 -0700
Subject: Wanted: stand for NeXT monitor
In-Reply-To:
References: <7F9F0B40-D3C8-489C-9DF3-B18D22866372@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <59BAD99C-C13A-42BB-8B84-516E81297690@fozztexx.com>
On May 29, 2015, at 8:50 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
> I don't buy it :O Maybe just navigating around the operating system it's
> true you won't see it balk too much, but once you run an app ... take
> OmniWeb;
OmniWeb was always slow, even on HPPA and Pentium II hardware. It?s a very poor app to use as a benchmark. It was so slow that I had to make a nice snail icon for it.
http://i.imgur.com/QzqWZT5.png
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
From jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu Mon Jun 1 10:31:18 2015
From: jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 10:31:18 -0500
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To:
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
,
<5569F3BA.6050008@sydex.com>
<556A01A5.6090503@email.wustl.edu>
Message-ID: <556C7AC6.6040005@email.wustl.edu>
On 06/01/2015 04:03 AM, Christian Corti wrote:
> On Sat, 30 May 2015, Jon Elson wrote:
>>> Is there a good reason why filament lamps were used on minicomputer
>>> front panels until the mid 1970s? Things like the PDP11/45, Philips
>>> P850, etc
>>> all used filament bulbs, not LEDs.
>>>
>> Inertia! The 11/45 was designed before LEDs were available, and so
>> they never changed. To do it right, the PC board would have to be
>> re-designed to
>
> Hold on! Most 11/45 have LED frontpanels (such as mine from 1974). The
> earlierst ones might have bulbs, but they switched to LEDs during
> production.
>
OK, I know 11/70's had LEDs, but all the /45's I worked with had bulbs.
Ours was SN 343, which I guess must have been an early unit. We got it
used in 1976 or possibly 1977, and it looked pretty "well used" when we
got it.
Jon
From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jun 1 10:36:19 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 17:36:19 +0200
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <556C7AC6.6040005@email.wustl.edu>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
,
<5569F3BA.6050008@sydex.com>
<556A01A5.6090503@email.wustl.edu>
<556C7AC6.6040005@email.wustl.edu>
Message-ID: <556C7BF3.2090709@update.uu.se>
On 2015-06-01 17:31, Jon Elson wrote:
>
> On 06/01/2015 04:03 AM, Christian Corti wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 May 2015, Jon Elson wrote:
>>>> Is there a good reason why filament lamps were used on minicomputer
>>>> front panels until the mid 1970s? Things like the PDP11/45, Philips
>>>> P850, etc
>>>> all used filament bulbs, not LEDs.
>>>>
>>> Inertia! The 11/45 was designed before LEDs were available, and so
>>> they never changed. To do it right, the PC board would have to be
>>> re-designed to
>>
>> Hold on! Most 11/45 have LED frontpanels (such as mine from 1974). The
>> earlierst ones might have bulbs, but they switched to LEDs during
>> production.
>>
> OK, I know 11/70's had LEDs, but all the /45's I worked with had bulbs.
> Ours was SN 343, which I guess must have been an early unit. We got it
> used in 1976 or possibly 1977, and it looked pretty "well used" when we
> got it.
Thinking about it, I seem to remember seeing some picture of an 11/70
with bulbs as well, but all 11/70 machines I've seen or worked on had
LEDs, so I suspect they might have had bulbs initially as well.
Johnny
From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 1 11:07:41 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 16:07:41 +0000
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <556C7BF3.2090709@update.uu.se>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
,
<5569F3BA.6050008@sydex.com>
<556A01A5.6090503@email.wustl.edu>
<556C7AC6.6040005@email.wustl.edu>,<556C7BF3.2090709@update.uu.se>
Message-ID:
>
>
> Thinking about it, I seem to remember seeing some picture of an 11/70
> with bulbs as well, but all 11/70 machines I've seen or worked on had
> LEDs, so I suspect they might have had bulbs initially as well.
DEC used little modules containing an LED and series resistor that were
the same size as the bi-pin T1+3/4 bulbs used earlier. In a CPU panel you
had to clip out the pre-heat resistors, for obvious reasons. My 8/e is like that,
although I think some 8/e's had bulbs. I've seen RK05s with bulbs and
RK05s with LED modules. My 11/45 (I forget the serial number, it's early, perhaps
315) certainly has bulbs.
Thinking about it, I find it surprising that on later disk drives -- RL's, RK07s,
R80s etc, they used bulbs and not LEDs. By that date LEDs were easily available and
reliable.
-tony
From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jun 1 12:38:59 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 19:38:59 +0200
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To:
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
,
<5569F3BA.6050008@sydex.com>
<556A01A5.6090503@email.wustl.edu>
<556C7AC6.6040005@email.wustl.edu>, <556C7BF3.2090709@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <556C98B3.4050203@update.uu.se>
On 2015-06-01 18:07, tony duell wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thinking about it, I seem to remember seeing some picture of an 11/70
>> with bulbs as well, but all 11/70 machines I've seen or worked on had
>> LEDs, so I suspect they might have had bulbs initially as well.
>
> DEC used little modules containing an LED and series resistor that were
> the same size as the bi-pin T1+3/4 bulbs used earlier. In a CPU panel you
> had to clip out the pre-heat resistors, for obvious reasons. My 8/e is like that,
> although I think some 8/e's had bulbs. I've seen RK05s with bulbs and
> RK05s with LED modules. My 11/45 (I forget the serial number, it's early, perhaps
> 315) certainly has bulbs.
My 8/Es certainly have bulbs, while my 8/M and 8/F have LEDs.
I think I have RK05s with both bulbs and LEDs, while my RL02s are all bulbs.
> Thinking about it, I find it surprising that on later disk drives -- RL's, RK07s,
> R80s etc, they used bulbs and not LEDs. By that date LEDs were easily available and
> reliable.
I think it was just harder to replace the construction where you had
push buttons with lamps. Those are not bi-pins.
The first "modern" drive that used LEDs that I can think of is the RA90.
And then you didn't have the lamps in the buttons, but next to them, and
then you had a 14(?)-segment 4 digit display to show more information.
Johnny
From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 1 12:42:26 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 17:42:26 +0000
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <556C98B3.4050203@update.uu.se>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
,
<5569F3BA.6050008@sydex.com>
<556A01A5.6090503@email.wustl.edu>
<556C7AC6.6040005@email.wustl.edu>, <556C7BF3.2090709@update.uu.se>
,
<556C98B3.4050203@update.uu.se>
Message-ID:
> > Thinking about it, I find it surprising that on later disk drives -- RL's, RK07s,
> > R80s etc, they used bulbs and not LEDs. By that date LEDs were easily available and
> > reliable.
>
> I think it was just harder to replace the construction where you had
> push buttons with lamps. Those are not bi-pins.
True. But there was no reason to introduce illuminated buttons, was there?
The older drives had separate indicators. So DEC made a change which
essentially forced them to use less reliable, higher current, indicators.
IIRC the R80 (and probably others) has a lamp test facility so that when
you get a FAULT you can be sure that the bulbs are all working and that
the indication is therefore genuine. LEDs probably wouldn't have needed
that.
I seem to recall that CDC at about that time had a pushbutton with a
rectangular LED on the surface of the button. That seemed quite a neat
device. I am sure DEC could have come up with something.
-tony
From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jun 1 12:53:57 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 19:53:57 +0200
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To:
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
,
<5569F3BA.6050008@sydex.com>
<556A01A5.6090503@email.wustl.edu>
<556C7AC6.6040005@email.wustl.edu>, <556C7BF3.2090709@update.uu.se>
,
<556C98B3.4050203@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <556C9C35.1070500@update.uu.se>
On 2015-06-01 19:42, tony duell wrote:
>>> Thinking about it, I find it surprising that on later disk drives -- RL's, RK07s,
>>> R80s etc, they used bulbs and not LEDs. By that date LEDs were easily available and
>>> reliable.
>>
>> I think it was just harder to replace the construction where you had
>> push buttons with lamps. Those are not bi-pins.
>
> True. But there was no reason to introduce illuminated buttons, was there?
Looks nice in a dark room. :-)
And some of the lamps would flicker when the disk were busy, while
others reflected state.
The RL02 for instance. The LOAD button could be in or out. In addition
you had the lamp inside, which indicated if the drive was locked. You
could only open the lid when the lamp was on.
And when you pressed the LOAD button, that lamp went out, but the lamp
in the unit button only came on when the drive was up to speed and had
passed the initial head load. So button positions and lamps provided a
combination of indications and operational details.
On the RA8x drives, you have a write protect button, but the drive can
also become write protected through a software command, so the lamp can
go on with the button not pushed in.
But that don't really answer your question, as they could definitely
have placed the lamps separate from the buttons instead of putting them
inside. You could say that it was a space saving solution, but as you
have plenty of empty real estate on the front of the drive anyway, there
was no real need for this space saving.
> The older drives had separate indicators. So DEC made a change which
> essentially forced them to use less reliable, higher current, indicators.
> IIRC the R80 (and probably others) has a lamp test facility so that when
> you get a FAULT you can be sure that the bulbs are all working and that
> the indication is therefore genuine. LEDs probably wouldn't have needed
> that.
Yup.
> I seem to recall that CDC at about that time had a pushbutton with a
> rectangular LED on the surface of the button. That seemed quite a neat
> device. I am sure DEC could have come up with something.
Right. I'm sure DEC *could* have done something clever. For some reason
they didn't. No idea why.
Johnny
From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jun 1 14:05:11 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 20:05:11 +0100
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To:
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
,
<5569F3BA.6050008@sydex.com>
<556A01A5.6090503@email.wustl.edu>
<556C7AC6.6040005@email.wustl.edu>, <556C7BF3.2090709@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <556CACE7.8030409@dunnington.plus.com>
On 01/06/2015 17:07, tony duell wrote:
> DEC used little modules containing an LED and series resistor that were
> the same size as the bi-pin T1+3/4 bulbs used earlier. In a CPU panel you
> had to clip out the pre-heat resistors, for obvious reasons. My 8/e is like that,
> although I think some 8/e's had bulbs.
One of my 8/e's has LEDs like that, the other has bulbs. Jim Austin has
at least three 8/e's and they all have bulbs.
--
Pete
Pete Turnbull
From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jun 1 16:26:59 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 14:26:59 -0700
Subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
In-Reply-To: <005401d09c8d$aa2afc50$fe80f4f0$@com>
References:
<20150528040526.GA29544@Update.UU.SE>
<20150528060218.GB29544@Update.UU.SE>
<90C96986-E0F5-41C1-BF6D-BA7AD223CB44@cs.ubc.ca>
<005401d09c8d$aa2afc50$fe80f4f0$@com>
Message-ID: <4FDC2477-7061-4F79-B573-4916410E56FC@cs.ubc.ca>
On 2015-Jun-01, at 10:09 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
>> Three RC-25 drives with a dozen-or-so cartridges. We know at least one drive works.
>
> If you actually get an RC-25 drive working, I'd love to hear about it. I
> have three RC25s (one actually in my 11/725 and two spares) and none of them
> work. They were never very reliable drives, even when brand new, and are
> possibly the worst drives DEC ever made. Fortunately for an 11/23 or 11/83
> there are lots of alternative drives available.
Well, we know one works in that it was running while we were there. Booted RT-11 off the fixed platter and then had to do some file deletion on cartridges.
As for the other two drives, we'll have to see as Rob finds time to check them. We won't be surprised if they have problems as they may well have earlier drives replaced by the functioning one. The power supply had been pulled out of one, but was still around. There are two spare logic boards for the drives, but I expect problems are more likely to be in the HDA area.
Should we end up finding a fault and succeeding in a repair, will let you know.
From other at oryx.us Mon Jun 1 18:57:33 2015
From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 18:57:33 -0500
Subject: Wanted: stand for NeXT monitor
In-Reply-To: <59BAD99C-C13A-42BB-8B84-516E81297690@fozztexx.com>
References: <7F9F0B40-D3C8-489C-9DF3-B18D22866372@yahoo.com>
<59BAD99C-C13A-42BB-8B84-516E81297690@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <556CF16D.9050904@oryx.us>
I don't recall/its been too long ago anyway to recall my OmniWeb experiences
from my friends NeXT Slab.
I do have it loaded on my Apple Mac mini, and it seems to perform just fine. No
Pentium II experiences or HPPA to directly relate to though.
Jerry
On 06/ 1/15 09:46 AM, Chris Osborn wrote:
>
> On May 29, 2015, at 8:50 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
>
>> I don't buy it :O Maybe just navigating around the operating system it's
>> true you won't see it balk too much, but once you run an app ... take
>> OmniWeb;
>
> OmniWeb was always slow, even on HPPA and Pentium II hardware. It?s a very poor app to use as a benchmark. It was so slow that I had to make a nice snail icon for it.
>
> http://i.imgur.com/QzqWZT5.png
>
> --
> Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
> Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
>
>
>
From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jun 1 19:24:01 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 17:24:01 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To:
References:
<20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
<93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
<067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <1FBDF44A-108D-4FDD-A336-DED30FD2332E@nf6x.net>
I received the $19 composite video to HDMI converter that I ordered from Amazon, tested it a bit with my Apple //c, and posted pictures of the results here:
http://www.nf6x.net/2015/06/cheap-hdmi-converter-with-apple-c/
Text modes worked pretty well, but graphic modes had a lot of colored fringes and distortion. I've only ever used Apple II series machines with monochrome displays, so I don't know how much better or worse the original analog CRT displays of the day might have performed. Do the Apple II experts have any feedback to share?
I'm also working on getting design details from Silicon Labs for one of their inexpensive single-chip TV tuners under NDA. If the Crazy Cat Lady project moves forward, that chip might come in handy. If I use that chip, I'll need to consider whether the NDA terms would preclude me from sharing my own IP that uses the chip, since I'd prefer to share my schematic and firmware. But if the NDA would disallow that, then I'd either need to close part or all of my design, or pick out a different tuner option.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X
http://www.nf6x.net/
From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Mon Jun 1 19:43:37 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 17:43:37 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <1FBDF44A-108D-4FDD-A336-DED30FD2332E@nf6x.net>
References:
<20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
<93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
<067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
<1FBDF44A-108D-4FDD-A336-DED30FD2332E@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <14BC9739-CC9E-495E-854D-DD57D2A91583@fozztexx.com>
On Jun 1, 2015, at 5:24 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> I received the $19 composite video to HDMI converter that I ordered from Amazon, tested it a bit with my Apple //c, and posted pictures of the results here:
>
> http://www.nf6x.net/2015/06/cheap-hdmi-converter-with-apple-c/
>
> Text modes worked pretty well, but graphic modes had a lot of colored fringes and distortion. I've only ever used Apple II series machines with monochrome displays, so I don't know how much better or worse the original analog CRT displays of the day might have performed. Do the Apple II experts have any feedback to share?
The color on the hi-res screens looks pretty good, but the vertical lines through the blocks on the lo-res screens isn?t quite right. The bottom 4 lines of text having color bleeding is normal, even on an Apple color composite monitor. The monochrome 80 column screen looks pretty good too.
Do you happen to have an old CRT TV around with composite input that you can hook up and compare to, just for yourself? I?ve got an Amdek Color I and Apple IIc Color Composite here that I?ll try to take some sample pictures of.
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jun 1 20:08:18 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 18:08:18 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <14BC9739-CC9E-495E-854D-DD57D2A91583@fozztexx.com>
References:
<20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
<93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
<067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
<1FBDF44A-108D-4FDD-A336-DED30FD2332E@nf6x.net>
<14BC9739-CC9E-495E-854D-DD57D2A91583@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID:
> On Jun 1, 2015, at 17:43, Chris Osborn wrote:
> Do you happen to have an old CRT TV around with composite input that you can hook up and compare to, just for yourself? I?ve got an Amdek Color I and Apple IIc Color Composite here that I?ll try to take some sample pictures of.
Hmm, I should be able to try it out with a Commodore 1080 monitor.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X
http://www.nf6x.net/
From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jun 1 21:03:26 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 19:03:26 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <14BC9739-CC9E-495E-854D-DD57D2A91583@fozztexx.com>
References:
<20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
<93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
<067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
<1FBDF44A-108D-4FDD-A336-DED30FD2332E@nf6x.net>
<14BC9739-CC9E-495E-854D-DD57D2A91583@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <756A4E08-7DDC-43D3-B10E-685B1252C358@nf6x.net>
> On Jun 1, 2015, at 17:43, Chris Osborn wrote:
>
> The color on the hi-res screens looks pretty good, but the vertical lines through the blocks on the lo-res screens isn?t quite right. The bottom 4 lines of text having color bleeding is normal, even on an Apple color composite monitor. The monochrome 80 column screen looks pretty good too.
Well, you're right! The text looks like crap on an analog CRT, too. I updated my blog post with a few more pictures.
Now I'm even more curious about the reports I've heard about having trouble with video conversion, since the first cheap converter I tried seemed to work OK with an Apple //c. Of course, it still lacks a tuner for the TV-connected computers, but I got the impression that the Apple II series was especially picky about its video converters. Maybe there's a different program I should try running that does weird stuff with video modes, like some game with particularly interesting graphics?
I'm also interested in seeing what the converter will do with composite video tapped out from a Color Computer's innards. I seem to recall that it had some screwy video modes that required the user to keep hitting the reset button until the colors weren't swapped.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X
http://www.nf6x.net/
From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Mon Jun 1 21:31:23 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 19:31:23 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <756A4E08-7DDC-43D3-B10E-685B1252C358@nf6x.net>
References:
<20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
<93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
<067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
<1FBDF44A-108D-4FDD-A336-DED30FD2332E@nf6x.net>
<14BC9739-CC9E-495E-854D-DD57D2A91583@fozztexx.com>
<756A4E08-7DDC-43D3-B10E-685B1252C358@nf6x.net>
Message-ID:
On Jun 1, 2015, at 7:03 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> Now I'm even more curious about the reports I've heard about having trouble with video conversion, since the first cheap converter I tried seemed to work OK with an Apple //c.
Color is always the problem with converters. The cheap composite to VGA converter I have will show all the color as monochrome stripes. It has problems with the Apple II and the Atari 800, but works perfectly fine with the Commodore 64, since the C64 doesn?t use the same weird tricks to get color. I?ve read that sometimes they can handle the Apple II color fine, but there?s no way to distinguish which actual model you?re getting since the cases are all identical and they are sold by Chinese sellers. Most likely early ones worked and later ones don?t.
A couple of times I?ve also been tempted to drag my NTSC Apple IIc & ZX Spectrum with composite PAL mod down to a Best Buy and try out some small LCD TVs to see if there?s a model that can handle both.
This one looks exactly like yours, but it?s even cheaper! I wonder if it?s the same?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009A6PJKQ
Heh, found another one for 3 bucks more with Prime, so I ordered it. I wonder if I have anything I can use to split the video signal out of one of my computers so I can do a side-by-side comparison.
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jun 1 21:39:07 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 19:39:07 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To:
References:
<20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
<93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
<067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
<1FBDF44A-108D-4FDD-A336-DED30FD2332E@nf6x.net>
<14BC9739-CC9E-495E-854D-DD57D2A91583@fozztexx.com>
<756A4E08-7DDC-43D3-B10E-685B1252C358@nf6x.net>
Message-ID:
> On Jun 1, 2015, at 19:31, Chris Osborn wrote:
> This one looks exactly like yours, but it?s even cheaper! I wonder if it?s the same?
>
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009A6PJKQ
When you get it, we can compare pictures of their innards. Mine has a PCB with blue soldermask. Most of the functionality appears to be in a single QFP, probably with a central ground/heat slug based on the vias on the bottom side of the board. The top of the chip appears to have been sanded to remove the markings.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X
http://www.nf6x.net/
From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jun 1 21:51:06 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 22:51:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Distribution panels (cab kits) for DZV11/DZQ11
Message-ID: <20150602025106.B44E918C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Hi, all, I'm looking for distribution panels (cab kits) for DZV11s/DZQ11s -
or that wierd cable with the DB25 connectors on one end which substitutes for
a cab kit, the BC11U - for the DZV11/DZQ11. (The part number for the
distribution panel is 70-19964-00.)
(I'm pretty sure the cabkit, which is technically for the DZQ11, will also
work with the DZV11, since they are documented as both using the BC11U cable.)
I don't have to have the cable (which is a BC05L-xx, which I'm pretty sure is
the vanilla 40-pin cable), since I'm set up to make them, although if the
panel comes with one, that's fine, of course.
Anyone know of a source for any? I looked online, none on eBay, Google showed
one dealer with one, but they wanted like $50 each.
Noel
From leec2124 at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 09:17:34 2015
From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 07:17:34 -0700
Subject: Datasaab D12
In-Reply-To: <20150601081847.GA26365@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150601081847.GA26365@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID:
Hej Pontus -
Very, very nice. I'm sure you already know this but there is a Nordic
computing history group on Facebook, somewhat active, that may be of help.
Link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/HiNC4/
And a group of former Datasaab employees (based in Link?ping?): datasaab.se
Good luck, keep us posted on progress.
Lee C.
On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 1:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> Hi
>
> Yesterday I picked up a Datasaab D12. Which I didn't know
> existed until then. Pictures here:
>
> http://imgur.com/a/vPTZw
>
> It's a small desktop computer intended for small business
> accounting and invoicing. It's built arround an intel 4004 and
> has room for expansion cards for memory and "customer roms".
>
> The service guide mentions a "two level" environment with a
> "basic" level and a "customer program" level. I'm hoping it
> means there is a Basic interpreter but I'm not convinced. The
> manual also mentions a "D12 assembler" as the develoment
> environment. It's apparently a subsystem that comes in a nice
> attache case:
>
> http://imgur.com/QQUrcGh
>
> It's actually made by Facit and may go under that name.
>
> Does anyone know more or have manuals?
>
> Regards, Pontus.
>
--
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell
From bob at jfcl.com Mon Jun 1 12:09:04 2015
From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 10:09:04 -0700
Subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
In-Reply-To: <90C96986-E0F5-41C1-BF6D-BA7AD223CB44@cs.ubc.ca>
References:
<20150528040526.GA29544@Update.UU.SE>
<20150528060218.GB29544@Update.UU.SE>
<90C96986-E0F5-41C1-BF6D-BA7AD223CB44@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <005401d09c8d$aa2afc50$fe80f4f0$@com>
> Three RC-25 drives with a dozen-or-so cartridges. We know at least one
drive works.
If you actually get an RC-25 drive working, I'd love to hear about it. I
have three RC25s (one actually in my 11/725 and two spares) and none of them
work. They were never very reliable drives, even when brand new, and are
possibly the worst drives DEC ever made. Fortunately for an 11/23 or 11/83
there are lots of alternative drives available.
Bob
From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Jun 1 15:11:38 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 22:11:38 +0200
Subject: Datasaab D12
In-Reply-To:
References: <20150601081847.GA26365@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <20150601201138.GA31843@Update.UU.SE>
On Mon, Jun 01, 2015 at 07:17:34AM -0700, Lee Courtney wrote:
> Hej Pontus -
>
> Very, very nice. I'm sure you already know this but there is a Nordic
> computing history group on Facebook, somewhat active, that may be of help.
> Link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/HiNC4/
I did not, I'll take a look.
>
> And a group of former Datasaab employees (based in Link?ping?): datasaab.se
>
I have met some of them in person, nice fellows. I'll certainly
ask there. As well as the Facit museums (two at least).
> Good luck, keep us posted on progress.
Will do.
>
> Lee C.
>
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 1:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > Yesterday I picked up a Datasaab D12. Which I didn't know
> > existed until then. Pictures here:
> >
> > http://imgur.com/a/vPTZw
> >
> > It's a small desktop computer intended for small business
> > accounting and invoicing. It's built arround an intel 4004 and
> > has room for expansion cards for memory and "customer roms".
> >
> > The service guide mentions a "two level" environment with a
> > "basic" level and a "customer program" level. I'm hoping it
> > means there is a Basic interpreter but I'm not convinced. The
> > manual also mentions a "D12 assembler" as the develoment
> > environment. It's apparently a subsystem that comes in a nice
> > attache case:
> >
> > http://imgur.com/QQUrcGh
> >
> > It's actually made by Facit and may go under that name.
> >
> > Does anyone know more or have manuals?
> >
> > Regards, Pontus.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Lee Courtney
> +1-650-704-3934 cell
From alan at alanlee.org Tue Jun 2 10:25:01 2015
From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 11:25:01 -0400
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <1FBDF44A-108D-4FDD-A336-DED30FD2332E@nf6x.net>
References:
<20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
<93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
<067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
<1FBDF44A-108D-4FDD-A336-DED30FD2332E@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <4c9d8b616da2248407f6db93b794828b@alanlee.org>
On 2015-06-01 20:24, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> I'm also working on getting design details from Silicon Labs for one of their inexpensive single-chip TV tuners under NDA. If the Crazy Cat Lady project moves forward, that chip might come in handy. If I use that chip, I'll need to consider whether the NDA terms would preclude me from sharing my own IP that uses the chip, since I'd prefer to share my schematic and firmware. But if the NDA would disallow that, then I'd either need to close part or all of my design, or pick out a different tuner option.
As far as the crazy cat lady project, as I was trying to explain
earlier.. my $.02 which maybe redundant to your own thoughts:
VIDEO ADC/DECODER
You can certainly use an off-the-shelf part as there are 47 from 5
companies on Digikey alone in solder friendly packages. However if the
classic machines you are targetting are producing a clean conforming
NTSC_M/J, PAL_B/G/N, or SECAM signals, stock video decoders on most
converter boxes would work perfectly already. I doubt you will have much
luck with the NDA process explaining a hobby cause but worth a try. Even
if you are successful, make sure the parts you are looking at are
readily available in 10s and 20s quantity through a distributor chain at
a reasonable cost. That may be a second hurdle if it's fairly exotic.
What SiLabs part are you looking at? I can't find any recent video
decoder offerings.
GENERIC ADC/DSP ANALYSIS
This is the harder path to go down. You will need a symbol rate of at
least 54 Mhz from a single or two interleaved ADCs to have a shot at at
least 50% phase accuracy (NTSC = 13.5 MHz). There are some relatively
inexpensive options, but I suggest getting a lot of input from folks and
other reference designs on the best way to build an analog front-end for
composite. And only do composite/S-Video. There are already commodity
solutions for stepping down broadcast RF frequencies to base-band. After
that, you will need something fairly hefty at the start to find the
characteristics of the signal and align the sampling. Then you just need
to track clock drift and adjust a VCXO. Straight-forward in hardware,
but I doubt many people will have the experience to add new software
support for and fix bugs when they occur. So set
expectations on your time early with respect to project support.
SOC/ZYNQ/MARKET
The fact you mention ZynQ throws up a few warning flags for me. It's
probably overkill, it's expensive in low quantities through normal
distributors, and it's not very hobby friendly. $65 for a '010 alone +
DDR3 + BGA assembly would drive the resulting cost for you to make these
boards well beyond $200. And your market is small - vintage computing
folks w/o a CRT on a limited budget. Considering that, you probably
should not try to build the processing core yourself. Run the ADC output
or the video decoder Bt.656 output into a stock board like a Parallella,
BeagleBone Black, or other EVM that has the processing power, HDMI
output, and input interfaces you need; especially to start with. Then go
full custom later.
-Alan
From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jun 2 10:46:29 2015
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 10:46:29 -0500
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To:
References:
<067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
<1FBDF44A-108D-4FDD-A336-DED30FD2332E@nf6x.net>
<14BC9739-CC9E-495E-854D-DD57D2A91583@fozztexx.com>
<756A4E08-7DDC-43D3-B10E-685B1252C358@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <20150602154629.GA5160@n0jcf.net>
On Monday (06/01/2015 at 07:39PM -0700), Mark J. Blair wrote:
>
> > On Jun 1, 2015, at 19:31, Chris Osborn wrote:
> > This one looks exactly like yours, but it?s even cheaper! I wonder if it?s the same?
> >
> > http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009A6PJKQ
>
> When you get it, we can compare pictures of their innards. Mine has a PCB with blue soldermask. Most of the functionality appears to be in a single QFP, probably with a central ground/heat slug based on the vias on the bottom side of the board. The top of the chip appears to have been sanded to remove the markings.
I ordered one too after seeing your pictures. It seems like the Amazon
price is not exactly deterministic-- I got mine for $11.90 yesterday
and the same link today shows it at $14.48. Perhaps these are commodity
priced, you know like corn :-)
I will try mine with various DEC terminals, Heathkit H19/H89 and several
other composite monochrome sources. Your 80 column display looked
really nice.
I had similar results with a GBS-82xx converter driving into a VGA LCD but
I would say the text is not as crisp there likely due to the additional
conversion back to analog VGA which your solution would eliminate.
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist N?JCF
From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Jun 2 10:47:49 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 08:47:49 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <4c9d8b616da2248407f6db93b794828b@alanlee.org>
References:
<20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
<93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
<067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
<1FBDF44A-108D-4FDD-A336-DED30FD2332E@nf6x.net>
<4c9d8b616da2248407f6db93b794828b@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <744A2AE4-21A3-41D8-B6F9-D4633E7BFB6F@nf6x.net>
> On Jun 2, 2015, at 08:25, Alan Hightower wrote:
> As far as the crazy cat lady project, as I was trying to explain
> earlier.. my $.02 which maybe redundant to your own thoughts:
You did inspire my choice of project name! :)
>
> VIDEO ADC/DECODER
>
> You can certainly use an off-the-shelf part as there are 47 from 5
> companies on Digikey alone in solder friendly packages. However if the
> classic machines you are targetting are producing a clean conforming
> NTSC_M/J, PAL_B/G/N, or SECAM signals, stock video decoders on most
> converter boxes would work perfectly already.
Right. It's the "clean conforming" part that I have heard is the issue, though my initial success with the first sub-$20 converter I tried makes me wonder whether the perceived desire for Crazy Cat Lady is overstated.
> I doubt you will have much
> luck with the NDA process explaining a hobby cause but worth a try.
I also thought it was a long-shot, but they sent me an NDA to sign last week and now I'm just waiting for the datasheet.
> Even
> if you are successful, make sure the parts you are looking at are
> readily available in 10s and 20s quantity through a distributor chain at
> a reasonable cost. That may be a second hurdle if it's fairly exotic.
> What SiLabs part are you looking at? I can't find any recent video
> decoder offerings.
The part in question is a tuner, not a decoder. It's Si2137, with 130 pieces on hand at Mouser. But for all I know, they might have bought one tray of somebody's leftover production parts, with no more to appear. If I use the part, I'd consider putting the tuner on a separate board with the expectation that the Si2137 might dry up without warning.
> GENERIC ADC/DSP ANALYSIS
>
> This is the harder path to go down. You will need a symbol rate of at
> least 54 Mhz from a single or two interleaved ADCs to have a shot at at
> least 50% phase accuracy (NTSC = 13.5 MHz). There are some relatively
> inexpensive options, but I suggest getting a lot of input from folks and
> other reference designs on the best way to build an analog front-end for
> composite.
Definitely a learning curve here, and I will welcome input on the analog front end.
> And only do composite/S-Video. There are already commodity
> solutions for stepping down broadcast RF frequencies to base-band.
Right. I'm looking at a $2.30 commodity part for the tuner, which is probably 1/10 the cost I could roll it myself. But having a tuner is an important feature, as most of the computers I'd want to target have RF/TV outputs, and I'd want to support them without requiring modifications to pull out composite.
> After
> that, you will need something fairly hefty at the start to find the
> characteristics of the signal and align the sampling. Then you just need
> to track clock drift and adjust a VCXO.
I was wondering whether I could get away with tracking the clock drift digitally rather than closing an analog PLL. What do you think?
> Straight-forward in hardware,
> but I doubt many people will have the experience to add new software
> support for non-standard composite output here> and fix bugs when they occur. So set
> expectations on your time early with respect to project support.
My expectation would be that I would make the design open, but then be very surprised if anybody rolled their own improvements rather than making sad puppy eyes and asking me to add support for their favorite neglected computer. :)
>
> SOC/ZYNQ/MARKET
>
> The fact you mention ZynQ throws up a few warning flags for me.
Understood!
> It's probably overkill
Certainly.
> , it's expensive in low quantities through normal
> distributors, and it's not very hobby friendly. $65 for a '010 alone +
> DDR3 + BGA assembly would drive the resulting cost for you to make these
> boards well beyond $200.
Agreed. But I do use them in my day job, so there's a strong familiarity factor. And another thing that I find compelling is that pushing FPGA + firmware updates would consist of instructing users to place one or more files on an SD or MicroSD card, rather than buying a programmer cable and installing a vast FPGA development platform, without me needing to roll my own FPGA reconfiguration solution. If I rolled my own with a cheaper FPGA + microcontroller, it might end up cheaper in BOM cost, but maybe not by a large margin.
And one of my challenges would be for me to try to get the BGA routed on a 4-layer board by careful selection of unused I/O pins and the largest-pitch package available. It's not uncommon to use 16 layers to escape those beasts with all pins used (and I've done it myself, on more cost-insensitive designs), but that wouldn't fly for this product. I won't know if I can do it until I try. It's promising that there are Zynq 010 dev boards in the $100 range.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X
http://www.nf6x.net/
From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Jun 2 11:05:46 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 09:05:46 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <744A2AE4-21A3-41D8-B6F9-D4633E7BFB6F@nf6x.net>
References:
<20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
<93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
<067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
<1FBDF44A-108D-4FDD-A336-DED30FD2332E@nf6x.net>
<4c9d8b616da2248407f6db93b794828b@alanlee.org>
<744A2AE4-21A3-41D8-B6F9-D4633E7BFB6F@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <8F72FFB3-AB00-4D31-879F-B9973F73E326@nf6x.net>
I just noticed that the Si2137 and Si2177 tuners are now marked as "factory special order" and Mouser, where they were previously just marked "New at Mouser". So my guess that those parts are a leftover tray with questionable future availability might be unpleasantly accurate.
I'm still interested in pursuing a cheap tuner design to see if it goes anywhere. Even if it turns out that some existing composite to HDMI converter satisfies everybody, I think there would be interest in a small, inexpensive standalone RF demod to get composite video out of vintage home machines without internal mods, and Crazy Cat Lady could morph into that. Maybe it would involve custom hardware, maybe it would be a TV tuner dongle operated in SDR mode plugged into a Beaglebone with custom software, maybe it would be a general purpose SDR design that happens to be well-suited for video demod... figuring that out is the fun part for me.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X
http://www.nf6x.net/
From alan at alanlee.org Tue Jun 2 11:29:28 2015
From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 12:29:28 -0400
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <744A2AE4-21A3-41D8-B6F9-D4633E7BFB6F@nf6x.net>
References:
<20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
<93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
<067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
<1FBDF44A-108D-4FDD-A336-DED30FD2332E@nf6x.net>
<4c9d8b616da2248407f6db93b794828b@alanlee.org>
<744A2AE4-21A3-41D8-B6F9-D4633E7BFB6F@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <99e0a061a7dcd6a2143472e3ceb1423c@alanlee.org>
On 2015-06-02 11:47, Mark J. Blair wrote:
>> After that, you will need something fairly hefty at the start to find the characteristics of the signal and align the sampling. Then you just need to track clock drift and adjust a VCXO.
>
> I was wondering whether I could get away with tracking the clock drift digitally rather than closing an analog PLL. What do you think?
For the general ADC route, I would put a PLL/clock synth on the board
in-case you have gross alignment errors on the incoming signal. The
input should be a multiple of 13.5 but you never know with clock
short-cuts on early systems. It's been a while since I've looked at the
Zynq PLLs, but usually they aren't designed for large bit depth M and
Ns. You will need one anyway to generate a 12.288 for audio and the
different output dot clocks. I've used TI CDCE906 and IDT's VersaClock
IIIs for this in other projects.
A VCXO is probably the simplest choice for clock recovery. Simple PWM
and RC filter to the tracking pin will allow you to slew the clock
150ppm or so.
As far as ZynQ, I would throw up a few warnings about the 300 MHz DLL
drop-out point on DDR3 and difficulty of routing. However I'm reminded
of the Zed board and their placement of by-pass caps in a pattern that
looked 'pretty'. Certainly not a beginner project, but you don't sound
like one. If you wanted to start with Parallella boards instead, I have
a couple trays of the SamTech mating connectors. I can send some your
way.
For SoC, it depends on the power you need to look at the signal. If I
were faced with the requirements you have created, I would start looking
at the Atmel SAMV7x line. The EVMs are starting to ship publicly and
it's the first to market for the ARM M7/Pelican core. It's has more DSP
performance in a small micro than most DSPs a generation ago. With OTG
and integrated highspeed USB PHYs, you could also ship the frame buffer
updates to a PC and support USB stick firmware update. Might be a nice
alternate solution to HDMI scaling. And it's super cheap. A number of
smaller FPGAs might do the trick depending on how complex your RTL
pipe-line is. The usual suspects, Spartan 6, MachXO2, and the new MAX10
from Altera.
-Alan
From t.gardner at computer.org Thu Jun 4 12:47:00 2015
From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 10:47:00 -0700
Subject: DEC Runoff to any modern format conversion or DEC MSCP protocol specs
Message-ID: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
Hi
I have multiple DEC Runoff (.rno extension) files for the manual on DEC's
MSCP protocol. I'd like to convert them to a modern format. The manual is
dated circa 1992 incorporating ecos thru MSCP23-4 and is revision 2.4 (or
later) of MSCP. What appears to be an early version (Apr 1982 rev 1.2) is
at
http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/dec/disc/UDA50/AA-L619A-TK_MSCP_basFn
s_82.pdf
I've searched for a convertor without much luck, there is a VMS Pascal
converter at https://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/support/rnototex which
converts to LaTex which can then be converted to pdf, but I don't have any
DEC equipment.
Anyone know of a converter or perhaps other already converted manuals at
other revision levels (e.g. rev 1.2 at link above)?
If not, anyone running VMS Pascal or OpenVMS v6.1 (or later) willing to try
a conversion to LaTex?
DECs Runoff is a markup language that sort of looks like an early HTML, so I
suppose I could try a grep conversion to HTML, or just strip out the markup.
Any other ideas?
Tom
From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Jun 4 14:10:17 2015
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 20:10:17 +0100
Subject: DEC Runoff to any modern format conversion or DEC MSCP protocol
specs
In-Reply-To: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
References: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
Message-ID:
I can build the converter in pascal and run it against the files if it
helps? Regards Mark
On 4 Jun 2015 20:06, "Tom Gardner" wrote:
> Hi
>
>
>
> I have multiple DEC Runoff (.rno extension) files for the manual on DEC's
> MSCP protocol. I'd like to convert them to a modern format. The manual is
> dated circa 1992 incorporating ecos thru MSCP23-4 and is revision 2.4 (or
> later) of MSCP. What appears to be an early version (Apr 1982 rev 1.2) is
> at
>
> http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/dec/disc/UDA50/AA-L619A-TK_MSCP_basFn
> s_82.pdf
>
>
>
> I've searched for a convertor without much luck, there is a VMS Pascal
> converter at https://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/support/rnototex which
> converts to LaTex which can then be converted to pdf, but I don't have any
> DEC equipment.
>
>
>
> Anyone know of a converter or perhaps other already converted manuals at
> other revision levels (e.g. rev 1.2 at link above)?
>
>
>
> If not, anyone running VMS Pascal or OpenVMS v6.1 (or later) willing to
> try
> a conversion to LaTex?
>
>
>
> DECs Runoff is a markup language that sort of looks like an early HTML, so
> I
> suppose I could try a grep conversion to HTML, or just strip out the
> markup.
>
>
>
> Any other ideas?
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 4 14:17:36 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 15:17:36 -0400
Subject: DEC Runoff to any modern format conversion or DEC MSCP protocol
specs
In-Reply-To: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
References: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
Message-ID:
> On Jun 4, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> I have multiple DEC Runoff (.rno extension) files for the manual on DEC's
> MSCP protocol. I'd like to convert them to a modern format. The manual is
> dated circa 1992 incorporating ecos thru MSCP23-4 and is revision 2.4 (or
> later) of MSCP. What appears to be an early version (Apr 1982 rev 1.2) is
> at
> http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/dec/disc/UDA50/AA-L619A-TK_MSCP_basFn
> s_82.pdf
>
>
>
> I've searched for a convertor without much luck, there is a VMS Pascal
> converter at https://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/support/rnototex which
> converts to LaTex which can then be converted to pdf, but I don't have any
> DEC equipment.
There are Pascal compilers for Unix, for example gpc. It has its limitations but it may be sufficient.
> ...
> DECs Runoff is a markup language that sort of looks like an early HTML, so I
> suppose I could try a grep conversion to HTML, or just strip out the markup.
A much closer relative is Unix ?troff? format, which apparently goes back to something in Multics called ?runoff?. Fancy that. So you might dig up a troff manual (here?s one: http://www.troff.org/54.pdf) and convert to that. It looks like that wouldn?t be hard.
paul
From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 16:45:11 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 14:45:11 -0700
Subject: Distribution panels (cab kits) for DZV11/DZQ11
In-Reply-To: <20150602025106.B44E918C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150602025106.B44E918C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID:
On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 7:51 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> Hi, all, I'm looking for distribution panels (cab kits) for DZV11s/DZQ11s -
> or that wierd cable with the DB25 connectors on one end which substitutes for
> a cab kit, the BC11U - for the DZV11/DZQ11. (The part number for the
> distribution panel is 70-19964-00.)
>
There is this distribution panel on eBay at the moment, but I think
this might be the H3173-A version for the M3104 DHV11 / M3107 DHQ11
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261913953474
The 70-19964-00 distribution panels I have for the M7957 DZV11 / M3106
DZQ11 have arrows screened on to the front of the panels between the
DB25 connectors. (I'm not sure what the arrow is supposed to
indicate).
From slandon110 at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 21:57:19 2015
From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2015 22:57:19 -0400
Subject: Epson QX10 Plus in Holland MI- With original boxes
Message-ID: <556FBE8F.60208@gmail.com>
Found this on craigslist tonight.. Someone near by go get it
http://holland.craigslist.org/sys/5047257113.html
From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 4 14:51:32 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 20:51:32 +0100
Subject: DEC Runoff to any modern format conversion or DEC MSCP protocol
specs
In-Reply-To:
References: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
Message-ID: <5570AC44.3000207@dunnington.plus.com>
On 04/06/2015 20:17, Paul Koning wrote:
>> DECs Runoff is a markup language that sort of looks like an early
>> HTML, so I suppose I could try a grep conversion to HTML, or just
>> strip out the markup.
> A much closer relative is Unix ?troff? format, which apparently goes
> back to something in Multics called ?runoff?. Fancy that. So you
> might dig up a troff manual (here?s one: http://www.troff.org/54.pdf)
> and convert to that. It looks like that wouldn?t be hard.
runoff is pretty simple, so a converter shouldn't be hard to do. You
might look for Unix roff, which begat nroff/troff.
--
Pete
Pete Turnbull
From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Jun 4 14:53:59 2015
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 20:53:59 +0100
Subject: DEC Runoff to any modern format conversion or DEC MSCP protocol
specs
In-Reply-To: <5570AC44.3000207@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
<5570AC44.3000207@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID:
Someone (possibly me) surely can process the files with dec runoff
directly? Doesnt it support postscript output?
On 4 Jun 2015 20:52, "Pete Turnbull" wrote:
> On 04/06/2015 20:17, Paul Koning wrote:
>
> DECs Runoff is a markup language that sort of looks like an early
>>> HTML, so I suppose I could try a grep conversion to HTML, or just
>>> strip out the markup.
>>>
>>
> A much closer relative is Unix ?troff? format, which apparently goes
>> back to something in Multics called ?runoff?. Fancy that. So you
>> might dig up a troff manual (here?s one: http://www.troff.org/54.pdf)
>> and convert to that. It looks like that wouldn?t be hard.
>>
>
> runoff is pretty simple, so a converter shouldn't be hard to do. You
> might look for Unix roff, which begat nroff/troff.
>
> --
> Pete
>
> Pete Turnbull
>
From drb at msu.edu Thu Jun 4 15:08:46 2015
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 16:08:46 -0400
Subject: DEC Runoff to any modern format conversion or DEC MSCP protocol
specs
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 04 Jun 2015 10:47:00 -0700.)
<004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
References: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
Message-ID: <20150604200846.B7811A585A8@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
> I have multiple DEC Runoff (.rno extension) files for the manual on
> DEC's MSCP protocol. I'd like to convert them to a modern format.
> The manual is
I think legalize said he wrote a converter once. I don't know if he
published it.
De
From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 4 15:22:30 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 21:22:30 +0100
Subject: DEC Runoff to any modern format conversion or DEC MSCP protocol
specs
In-Reply-To:
References: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
<5570AC44.3000207@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID:
I wouldn't mind running a file through runoff either, or building the
Pascal code that was mentioned. It would be a good excuse to do something
with one of my machines.
Regards
Rob
On 4 June 2015 at 20:53, Mark Wickens wrote:
> Someone (possibly me) surely can process the files with dec runoff
> directly? Doesnt it support postscript output?
> On 4 Jun 2015 20:52, "Pete Turnbull" wrote:
>
> > On 04/06/2015 20:17, Paul Koning wrote:
> >
> > DECs Runoff is a markup language that sort of looks like an early
> >>> HTML, so I suppose I could try a grep conversion to HTML, or just
> >>> strip out the markup.
> >>>
> >>
> > A much closer relative is Unix ?troff? format, which apparently goes
> >> back to something in Multics called ?runoff?. Fancy that. So you
> >> might dig up a troff manual (here?s one: http://www.troff.org/54.pdf)
> >> and convert to that. It looks like that wouldn?t be hard.
> >>
> >
> > runoff is pretty simple, so a converter shouldn't be hard to do. You
> > might look for Unix roff, which begat nroff/troff.
> >
> > --
> > Pete
> >
> > Pete Turnbull
> >
>
From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 4 15:25:49 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 16:25:49 -0400
Subject: DEC Runoff to any modern format conversion or DEC MSCP protocol
specs
In-Reply-To:
References: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
<5570AC44.3000207@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <33A8A1E4-0EFE-4ED9-AD81-7DBDDBEB5CBE@comcast.net>
> On Jun 4, 2015, at 3:53 PM, Mark Wickens wrote:
>
> Someone (possibly me) surely can process the files with dec runoff
> directly? Doesnt it support postscript output?
Not any version I have ever seen; they all produce plain lineprinter output (with overprinting for things like underlining). You can of course take the formatted output and run it through a simple postprocessor like pstext.
Some versions of troff can produce PostScript (current Linux or Darwin ones, for example) so if you can do runoff->troff then you have a direct path to PostScript. But you?re right, if someone would offer to run an actual RUNOFF on the sources, that would be a good approach. I could do it on a RSTS system, which might work provided the source doesn?t use VMS-specific Runoff features.
paul
From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Jun 4 16:01:25 2015
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 22:01:25 +0100
Subject: DEC Runoff to any modern format conversion or DEC MSCP protocol
specs
In-Reply-To: <33A8A1E4-0EFE-4ED9-AD81-7DBDDBEB5CBE@comcast.net>
References: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
<5570AC44.3000207@dunnington.plus.com>
<33A8A1E4-0EFE-4ED9-AD81-7DBDDBEB5CBE@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5570BCA5.6000607@wickensonline.co.uk>
If it produces DEC/ANSI escape codes I have a converter that will turn
it into HTML?
On 04/06/15 21:25, Paul Koning wrote:
>> On Jun 4, 2015, at 3:53 PM, Mark Wickens wrote:
>>
>> Someone (possibly me) surely can process the files with dec runoff
>> directly? Doesnt it support postscript output?
> Not any version I have ever seen; they all produce plain lineprinter output (with overprinting for things like underlining). You can of course take the formatted output and run it through a simple postprocessor like pstext.
>
> Some versions of troff can produce PostScript (current Linux or Darwin ones, for example) so if you can do runoff->troff then you have a direct path to PostScript. But you?re right, if someone would offer to run an actual RUNOFF on the sources, that would be a good approach. I could do it on a RSTS system, which might work provided the source doesn?t use VMS-specific Runoff features.
>
> paul
>
>
From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jun 4 15:58:46 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 21:58:46 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: DEC Runoff to any modern format conversion or DEC MSCP protocol
specs
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 04 Jun 2015 16:25:49 -0400"
<33A8A1E4-0EFE-4ED9-AD81-7DBDDBEB5CBE@comcast.net>
References: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
<5570AC44.3000207@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <01PMSNN38J52007L1Y@beyondthepale.ie>
Paul Koning wrote:
>
> > On Jun 4, 2015, at 3:53 PM, Mark Wickens wrote:
> >
> > Someone (possibly me) surely can process the files with dec runoff
> > directly? Doesnt it support postscript output?
>
> Not any version I have ever seen; they all produce plain lineprinter output
> (with overprinting for things like underlining). You can of course take the
> formatted output and run it through a simple postprocessor like pstext.
>
> Some versions of troff can produce PostScript (current Linux or Darwin ones,
> for example) so if you can do runoff->troff then you have a direct path to
> PostScript. But you?re right, if someone would offer to run an actual
> RUNOFF on the sources, that would be a good approach. I could do it on a
> RSTS system, which might work provided the source doesn?t use VMS-specific
> Runoff features.
>
I've just took a look at the (Open)VMS Alpha 8.2 system in front of me and
it appears RUNOFF comes installed with the OS.
The online help says it can produce output for an LN01, LN01E or LN03.
While these are laser printers, as far as I know, they are nothing like
postscript printers. I did a quick test and the output looks to me like 8 bit
ANSI escape sequences and text.
Regards,
Peter Coghlan.
From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 07:09:21 2015
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 08:09:21 -0400
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
Message-ID:
>
> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 09:33:26 +0100
> From: "Robert Jarratt"
> Subject: RE: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
>
> Yes, the new rubber hammers are available from David Tumey. I think he
> wants
> about $7 for 10 of them. I have a supply of them here in the UK for anyone
> that needs any.
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
Thanks Rob.
I sent him an email and asked about the hammer, and a source for paper and
ribbons.
The platen is hard as a rock, so we will need to do something about that
too.
--
Michael Thompson
From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 2 16:05:48 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 22:05:48 +0100
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
I think paper and ribbons are easy to find in the US. I may have the info,
but it is at home and I am away. You should consider joining the greenkeys
list.
Regards
Rob
On 2 June 2015 at 13:09, Michael Thompson
wrote:
> >
> > Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 09:33:26 +0100
> > From: "Robert Jarratt"
> > Subject: RE: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
> >
> > Yes, the new rubber hammers are available from David Tumey. I think he
> > wants
> > about $7 for 10 of them. I have a supply of them here in the UK for
> anyone
> > that needs any.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Rob
> >
>
> Thanks Rob.
>
> I sent him an email and asked about the hammer, and a source for paper and
> ribbons.
> The platen is hard as a rock, so we will need to do something about that
> too.
>
> --
> Michael Thompson
>
From lists at y42.org Thu Jun 4 13:24:31 2015
From: lists at y42.org (IMAP List Administration)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 20:24:31 +0200
Subject: X11 expertise on ancient HW sought... (4-plane visual (overlay) via
X-server on MS-WIndows)
Message-ID: <557097DF.5080105@y42.org>
[also posted to comp.graphics.x today]
Hello Folks,
I'm trying to get an application that currently uses a local display on an
ancient DEC Alpha workstation with a (for the time) mid-to-high-end graphics
controller (ZLX-E2) to instead use an X-server running under MS-Windows.
The application is complaining that it cannot find a "4/5-bit visual". It almost
certainly wants to use this visual for an overlay, as the application displays
moving objects superimposed on a map.
On the original hardware, xdpyinfo tells me:
> [...]
> supported pixmap formats:
> [...]
> depth 4, bits_per_pixel 8, scanline_pad 32
> [...]
> screen #0:
> [...]
> depths (4): 8, 12, 24, 4
> [...]
> number of visuals: 21
> [lots of other visuals here, but no 4-plane except for the following]
> visual:
> visual id: 0x36
> class: PseudoColor
> depth: 4 planes
> available colormap entries: 16
> red, green, blue masks: 0x0, 0x0, 0x0
> significant bits in color specification: 4 bits
and "xprop -root" tells me:
> [...]
> SERVER_OVERLAY_VISUALS(SERVER_OVERLAY_VISUALS) = 0x36, 0x1, 0x0, 0x1
As you can see, there seems to be exactly one overlay, whose visual id (0x36)
corresponds to the single 4-plane visual listed by xdpyinfo.
When I use the above commands to retrieve the capabilities of the MS-Windows
X-server (Exceed, in this case), xdpyinfo does not list a 4-plane visual at all.
"xprop" lists lots of overlays, 24 in total, all of them 8-plane visuals.
The MS-Windows box is running Windows-7 (64bit) and has a Nvidia Quadro 400 GPU.
I used the "Nvidia Control Panel" to set "Enable overlay" to "on" in the "Manage
3D settings" section. Also, in the Exceed X-server configuration I enabled
"OpenGL", and within that enabled "Overlay Support" and "GLX 1.3 Support".
I conclude that the MS-Windows SW/HW system (X-server, MS-Win GPU driver, GPU)
cannot offer 4-plane visuals. However, I don't know what system component(s)
is/are the cause the problem.
I have tested VcXsrv, Reflection-X, Exceed (with 3D option), X-Win32 and even
the ancient DEC Pathworks X-server eXcursion with no success. I'm working on
getting an evaluation copy of PTC's MKSTools X/Server. Of the X-servers I've
tested, Exceed seems to offer the most configuration parameters.
I'm not even sure the Quadro 400 can handle 4bpp "visuals", or whatever
MS-Windows calls them. In fact, I wonder if any modern hardware offers 4bpp
capability. On my Linux box with a GeForce GT 430 I don't have any 4-plane
visuals, and xprop doesn't mention any overlays either.
I'm somewhat confused about where overlays fit into the X scheme. I have seen
lots of references to overlays in an OpenGL context, however the Alpha seems not
to have any OpenGL capability: GLX is not in the list of extentions printed by
xdpyinfo. Can someone clear this up for me?
Am I correct to assume that the GPU must support 4bpp in order for it even to be
possible for the X-server to propagate a 4-plane visual to a client? If yes, how
can I determine if a GPU supports 4bpp? Nvidia is very sparing with the
information in their specs for the Quadro 400 GPU.
Assuming I can find a GPU that supports/offers 4bpp, does anyone know an
X-server product/project that can provide 4-plane overlays?
thanks,
Rob
From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Thu Jun 4 15:53:28 2015
From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 14:53:28 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: X11 expertise on ancient HW sought... (4-plane visual (overlay)
via X-server on MS-WIndows)
In-Reply-To: <557097DF.5080105@y42.org>
Message-ID:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2015, IMAP List Administration wrote:
> On the original hardware, xdpyinfo tells me:
> > [...]
> > supported pixmap formats:
> > [...]
> > depth 4, bits_per_pixel 8, scanline_pad 32
> > [...]
> > screen #0:
> > [...]
> > depths (4): 8, 12, 24, 4
I can muddy the water for you. On my VMS 8.3 box (a not new Alphastation
500) I get this:
richardlo $ xdpyinfo
name of display: _WSA2:
version number: 11.0
vendor string: DECWINDOWS Hewlett-Packard Development Company OpenVMS
vendor release number: 8003
maximum request size: 65535 longwords (262140 bytes)
motion buffer size: 0
bitmap unit, bit order, padding: 32, LSBFirst, 32
image byte order: LSBFirst
number of supported pixmap formats: 2
supported pixmap formats:
depth 1, bits_per_pixel 1, scanline_pad 32
depth 8, bits_per_pixel 8, scanline_pad 32
So I don't have a pixmap format with a depth of 4 either. But my Redhat
Linux EL6.6 box does, it reports support for 1, 4, 8, 15, 16, 24, and 32.
--
Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father
Athabasca University : but you have to earn
Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'"
** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston
From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 4 17:07:00 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 15:07:00 -0700
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <5570CC04.5000002@sydex.com>
I'll add that if the Rubber Renue treatment is ineffective, you can have
your platen rebuilt by JJ Short:
http://www.jjshort.com/typewriter-platen-repair.php
--Chuck
From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jun 4 16:55:22 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 22:55:22 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: X11 expertise on ancient HW sought... (4-plane visual (overlay)
via X-server on MS-WIndows)
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 04 Jun 2015 14:53:28 -0600 (MDT)"
References: <557097DF.5080105@y42.org>
Message-ID: <01PMSP507HLY007L1Y@beyondthepale.ie>
Richard Loken wrote:
>
> On Thu, 4 Jun 2015, IMAP List Administration wrote:
>
> > On the original hardware, xdpyinfo tells me:
> > > [...]
> > > supported pixmap formats:
> > > [...]
> > > depth 4, bits_per_pixel 8, scanline_pad 32
> > > [...]
> > > screen #0:
> > > [...]
> > > depths (4): 8, 12, 24, 4
>
> I can muddy the water for you. On my VMS 8.3 box (a not new Alphastation
> 500) I get this:
>
> richardlo $ xdpyinfo
> name of display: _WSA2:
> version number: 11.0
> vendor string: DECWINDOWS Hewlett-Packard Development Company OpenVMS
> vendor release number: 8003
> maximum request size: 65535 longwords (262140 bytes)
> motion buffer size: 0
> bitmap unit, bit order, padding: 32, LSBFirst, 32
> image byte order: LSBFirst
> number of supported pixmap formats: 2
> supported pixmap formats:
> depth 1, bits_per_pixel 1, scanline_pad 32
> depth 8, bits_per_pixel 8, scanline_pad 32
>
> So I don't have a pixmap format with a depth of 4 either. But my Redhat
> Linux EL6.6 box does, it reports support for 1, 4, 8, 15, 16, 24, and 32.
>
If further muddying is required, my about 20 year old Alphaserver 800 running
VMS 8.2 with a Powerstorm something (maybe 3D30 or 4D20?) graphics card and my
PWS 500a(u) running VMS 8.3 and some slightly lesser capable graphics card that
I cannot recall the name of at all both report this:
visual:
visual id: 0x36
class: PseudoColor
depth: 4 planes
size of colormap: 16 entries
red, green, blue masks: 0x0, 0x0, 0x0
significant bits in color specification: 4 bits
and this:
SERVER_OVERLAY_VISUALS(SERVER_OVERLAY_VISUALS) = 0x36, 0x1, 0x0, 0x1
Regards,
Peter Coghlan.
From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 4 17:04:25 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 15:04:25 -0700
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <5570CB69.8050206@sydex.com>
On 06/02/2015 05:09 AM, Michael Thompson wrote:
> I sent him an email and asked about the hammer, and a source for paper and
> ribbons.
> The platen is hard as a rock, so we will need to do something about that
> too.
There's some stuff called "Rubber Renue" sold for just that purpose.
Basically, it's a mixture of methyl salicylate (oil of wintergreen) and
xylol. You brush it on and give it time (hours) to soak in. Repeat if
necessary.
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/cleaners/specialty-cleaners/rubber-renue-408a/
I can attest to its working and the nice minty odor...
--Chuck
From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Jun 4 17:49:01 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 22:49:01 +0000
Subject: DEC Runoff to any modern format conversion or DEC MSCP protocol
specs
In-Reply-To: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
References: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEAF56B2@505LAG2.corp.vnw.com>
From: Tom Gardner
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 10:47 AM
> I have multiple DEC Runoff (.rno extension) files for the manual on DEC's
> MSCP protocol. I'd like to convert them to a modern format. The manual is
> dated circa 1992 incorporating ecos thru MSCP23-4 and is revision 2.4 (or
> later) of MSCP. What appears to be an early version (Apr 1982 rev 1.2) is
> at
> http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/dec/disc/UDA50/AA-L619A-TK_MSCP_basFns_82.pdf
> I've searched for a convertor without much luck, there is a VMS Pascal
> converter at https://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/support/rnototex which
> converts to LaTex which can then be converted to pdf, but I don't have any
> DEC equipment.
You can open an account on the VAX running VMS 7.3* at Living Computer Museum
and run the converter program there, then run pdflatex on a PC to get the final
output directly.
Just another option.
Rich
* The "Open" is silent.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Jun 4 17:49:39 2015
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 23:49:39 +0100
Subject: DEC Runoff to any modern format conversion or DEC MSCP protocol
specs
In-Reply-To: <01PMSNN38J52007L1Y@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
<5570AC44.3000207@dunnington.plus.com>
<01PMSNN38J52007L1Y@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <5570D603.3070503@wickensonline.co.uk>
There is also this:
http://www.decuslib.com/decus/vax87c/clement/runoff/aaareadme.1st
Bonner Lab Runoff (RNO)
Bonner Lab Runoff is a text formatter that, when used with your favorite
editor, makes a complete word processor. Its syntax is almost a complete
emulation of DSR (Digital Standard Runoff) and it is very compatible with
previous versions of Runoff. The document and help file for this version
can also be used for DSR. The intent of this program is to support com-
plete scientific word processing to produce publication quality output.
It has been used to produce thesis, progress reports, and scientific pa-
pers here at Rice University.
This version allows complete control of any special printer available via
user definable escape sequences. In addition a macro facility allows
text or sequences of commands to be abbreviated to a single label. If
the printer has the correct features, then variable spacing,subscripting,
superscripting, and equation formatting are possible. By properly defin-
ing escape sequences the user can support different printers in a tran-
sparent fashion. In other words the same input text will print in
identical fashion on different printers with different control codes and
escape sequences.
All written in glorious MACRO!
Mark.
On 04/06/15 21:58, Peter Coghlan wrote:
> Paul Koning wrote:
>>> On Jun 4, 2015, at 3:53 PM, Mark Wickens wrote:
>>>
>>> Someone (possibly me) surely can process the files with dec runoff
>>> directly? Doesnt it support postscript output?
>> Not any version I have ever seen; they all produce plain lineprinter output
>> (with overprinting for things like underlining). You can of course take the
>> formatted output and run it through a simple postprocessor like pstext.
>>
>> Some versions of troff can produce PostScript (current Linux or Darwin ones,
>> for example) so if you can do runoff->troff then you have a direct path to
>> PostScript. But you?re right, if someone would offer to run an actual
>> RUNOFF on the sources, that would be a good approach. I could do it on a
>> RSTS system, which might work provided the source doesn?t use VMS-specific
>> Runoff features.
>>
> I've just took a look at the (Open)VMS Alpha 8.2 system in front of me and
> it appears RUNOFF comes installed with the OS.
>
> The online help says it can produce output for an LN01, LN01E or LN03.
> While these are laser printers, as far as I know, they are nothing like
> postscript printers. I did a quick test and the output looks to me like 8 bit
> ANSI escape sequences and text.
>
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.
>
From dave at 661.org Thu Jun 4 17:51:45 2015
From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 22:51:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Two more P112 kits left
Message-ID:
I have two more P112 kits left. One is a board with parts. The other
adds an old SCSI enclosure. Once these are gone, it'll be a long time
before I offer complete kits again. The price is $190 for the kit alone
and $210 for the kit with chassis (shipped in the US). The chassis is
identical to the blue sparkly one seen at
https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582 at N02/sets/72157649945208099 except
it's beige.
--
David Griffith
dave at 661.org
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 17:58:43 2015
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 17:58:43 -0500
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <5570CC04.5000002@sydex.com>
References:
<5570CC04.5000002@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <30C89288-5403-4A6B-A983-BAC6618D3F5F@gmail.com>
I'll add that I've had several platens and power rolls rebuilt by JJ Short and the service was top notch. -C
On Jun 4, 2015, at 5:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> I'll add that if the Rubber Renue treatment is ineffective, you can have your platen rebuilt by JJ Short:
>
> http://www.jjshort.com/typewriter-platen-repair.php
>
> --Chuck
>
From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 4 18:40:58 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 19:40:58 -0400
Subject: DEC Runoff to any modern format conversion or DEC MSCP protocol
specs
In-Reply-To: <5570BCA5.6000607@wickensonline.co.uk>
References: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
<5570AC44.3000207@dunnington.plus.com>
<33A8A1E4-0EFE-4ED9-AD81-7DBDDBEB5CBE@comcast.net>
<5570BCA5.6000607@wickensonline.co.uk>
Message-ID: <203CE35E-097F-4A79-89C5-80AFE6CB3B6C@comcast.net>
No escape codes. Just text, and return without line feed to overprint one line on another, to do underlining. If you don?t use underlines, the text is just plain text, suitable for viewing with ?cat? or ?more?.
paul
> On Jun 4, 2015, at 5:01 PM, Mark Wickens wrote:
>
> If it produces DEC/ANSI escape codes I have a converter that will turn it into HTML?
>
> On 04/06/15 21:25, Paul Koning wrote:
>>> On Jun 4, 2015, at 3:53 PM, Mark Wickens wrote:
>>>
>>> Someone (possibly me) surely can process the files with dec runoff
>>> directly? Doesnt it support postscript output?
>> Not any version I have ever seen; they all produce plain lineprinter output (with overprinting for things like underlining). You can of course take the formatted output and run it through a simple postprocessor like pstext.
>>
>> Some versions of troff can produce PostScript (current Linux or Darwin ones, for example) so if you can do runoff->troff then you have a direct path to PostScript. But you?re right, if someone would offer to run an actual RUNOFF on the sources, that would be a good approach. I could do it on a RSTS system, which might work provided the source doesn?t use VMS-specific Runoff features.
>>
>> paul
>>
>>
>
From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Jun 4 19:21:30 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 19:21:30 -0500
Subject: DEC Runoff to any modern format conversion or DEC MSCP protocol
specs
In-Reply-To: <5570D603.3070503@wickensonline.co.uk>
References: <004701d09eee$75cd0580$61671080$@computer.org>
<5570AC44.3000207@dunnington.plus.com>
<01PMSNN38J52007L1Y@beyondthepale.ie>
<5570D603.3070503@wickensonline.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20150605002130.GA7026@lonesome.com>
On Thu, Jun 04, 2015 at 11:49:39PM +0100, Mark Wickens wrote:
> Bonner Lab Runoff (RNO)
To give you an idea of the age of this software, Bonner Lab at Rice
was demolished in 1994 make way for a "modern" computer science building.
See http://ricehistorycorner.com/2011/08/11/1694/
I doubt the contact information will still work :-)
(BITNET? )
They had an IBM 1800 in it which they decomissioned in the late 70s.
mcl
p.s. apparently the name of the building lives on as a description of
another facility.
From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 19:49:33 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 20:49:33 -0400
Subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
In-Reply-To: <005401d09c8d$aa2afc50$fe80f4f0$@com>
References:
<20150528040526.GA29544@Update.UU.SE>
<20150528060218.GB29544@Update.UU.SE>
<90C96986-E0F5-41C1-BF6D-BA7AD223CB44@cs.ubc.ca>
<005401d09c8d$aa2afc50$fe80f4f0$@com>
Message-ID:
On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 1:09 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
> If you actually get an RC-25 drive working, I'd love to hear about it. I
> have three RC25s (one actually in my 11/725 and two spares) and none of them
> work. They were never very reliable drives, even when brand new, and are
> possibly the worst drives DEC ever made.
Ain't that the truth. I had a 11/725 with a working RC25 back in the
1990s, and I've semi-recently replaced it with a different 11/725 that
did not come with a removable cartridge so I've not been able to spin
it up to test the internal platter. Hopefully it works, but if it
doesn't, (see below).
> Fortunately for an 11/23 or 11/83 there are lots of alternative drives available.
There are. Unfortunately, for Unibus machines (11/725 especially),
there are not as many alternatives.
One I've seen is to nibble a chunk out of the rim of the cover skin
(to prevent pinching) and run a BC-11-A Unibus ribbon cable out to a
BA-11 and stick any number of controllers in that, such as an
easy-to-find-but-power-hungry UDA50. Also good for adding more
serial, etc. Just put RAM in the CPU box and leave all the
peripherals in the external BA-11. Not supported by DEC, but it works
fine.
I've also heard of people using Emulex and other 3rd-party SMD and
ESDI controllers. Those aren't too expensive. Unibus SCSI, OTOH, is
not common, but a joy if you can find one.
-ethan
From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 02:31:23 2015
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 09:31:23 +0200
Subject: PDP-11/44 M7098 ECO #7?
Message-ID:
I have been given a PDP-11/44 and I was running through all sorts of
diagnostics to check out the machine. It seems to work fine except for the
trap test KKABD1 which fails at 23252. It passes an earlier version of the
same trap test.
The listing (thank you J?rg) is at: ftp://u58104846-pub:open4you@
ftp.j-hoppe.de/fichescanner/bw/gh/AH-F623D-MC__KD11-Z__11-44_TRAPS__CKKABD0__(C)79-82.pdf
It tells me that my M7098 board is missing ECO #7. Anyone knows of a list
of ECOs for the PDP-11/44. I think I have searched everywhere I can think
of but haven't found it.
From abs at absd.org Thu Jun 4 17:19:03 2015
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 23:19:03 +0100
Subject: X11 expertise on ancient HW sought... (4-plane visual (overlay)
via X-server on MS-WIndows)
In-Reply-To: <557097DF.5080105@y42.org>
References: <557097DF.5080105@y42.org>
Message-ID:
On 4 June 2015 at 19:24, IMAP List Administration wrote:
> [also posted to comp.graphics.x today]
>
> Hello Folks,
>
> I'm trying to get an application that currently uses a local display on an
> ancient DEC Alpha workstation with a (for the time) mid-to-high-end graphics
> controller (ZLX-E2) to instead use an X-server running under MS-Windows.
>
> The application is complaining that it cannot find a "4/5-bit visual". It almost
> certainly wants to use this visual for an overlay, as the application displays
> moving objects superimposed on a map.
>
> On the original hardware, xdpyinfo tells me:
>> [...]
>> supported pixmap formats:
>> [...]
>> depth 4, bits_per_pixel 8, scanline_pad 32
>> [...]
>> screen #0:
>> [...]
>> depths (4): 8, 12, 24, 4
>> [...]
>> number of visuals: 21
>> [lots of other visuals here, but no 4-plane except for the following]
>> visual:
>> visual id: 0x36
>> class: PseudoColor
>> depth: 4 planes
>> available colormap entries: 16
>> red, green, blue masks: 0x0, 0x0, 0x0
>> significant bits in color specification: 4 bits
>
> and "xprop -root" tells me:
>> [...]
>> SERVER_OVERLAY_VISUALS(SERVER_OVERLAY_VISUALS) = 0x36, 0x1, 0x0, 0x1
>
> As you can see, there seems to be exactly one overlay, whose visual id (0x36)
> corresponds to the single 4-plane visual listed by xdpyinfo.
>
> When I use the above commands to retrieve the capabilities of the MS-Windows
> X-server (Exceed, in this case), xdpyinfo does not list a 4-plane visual at all.
> "xprop" lists lots of overlays, 24 in total, all of them 8-plane visuals.
>
> The MS-Windows box is running Windows-7 (64bit) and has a Nvidia Quadro 400 GPU.
> I used the "Nvidia Control Panel" to set "Enable overlay" to "on" in the "Manage
> 3D settings" section. Also, in the Exceed X-server configuration I enabled
> "OpenGL", and within that enabled "Overlay Support" and "GLX 1.3 Support".
>
> I conclude that the MS-Windows SW/HW system (X-server, MS-Win GPU driver, GPU)
> cannot offer 4-plane visuals. However, I don't know what system component(s)
> is/are the cause the problem.
>
> I have tested VcXsrv, Reflection-X, Exceed (with 3D option), X-Win32 and even
> the ancient DEC Pathworks X-server eXcursion with no success. I'm working on
> getting an evaluation copy of PTC's MKSTools X/Server. Of the X-servers I've
> tested, Exceed seems to offer the most configuration parameters.
>
> I'm not even sure the Quadro 400 can handle 4bpp "visuals", or whatever
> MS-Windows calls them. In fact, I wonder if any modern hardware offers 4bpp
> capability. On my Linux box with a GeForce GT 430 I don't have any 4-plane
> visuals, and xprop doesn't mention any overlays either.
>
> I'm somewhat confused about where overlays fit into the X scheme. I have seen
> lots of references to overlays in an OpenGL context, however the Alpha seems not
> to have any OpenGL capability: GLX is not in the list of extentions printed by
> xdpyinfo. Can someone clear this up for me?
>
> Am I correct to assume that the GPU must support 4bpp in order for it even to be
> possible for the X-server to propagate a 4-plane visual to a client? If yes, how
> can I determine if a GPU supports 4bpp? Nvidia is very sparing with the
> information in their specs for the Quadro 400 GPU.
>
> Assuming I can find a GPU that supports/offers 4bpp, does anyone know an
> X-server product/project that can provide 4-plane overlays?
Have you tried MobaXterm?
On my Thinkpad T420s (Intel gfx) booting into Windows 7, then running
my NetBSD install in Virtual box and firing up an xterm using Moba as
the X server reports:
depths (7): 24, 1, 4, 8, 15, 16, 32
The Personal version of MobaXterm is free :)
From bob at jfcl.com Thu Jun 4 22:56:28 2015
From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 20:56:28 -0700
Subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
In-Reply-To:
References: <20150528040526.GA29544@Update.UU.SE> <20150528060218.GB29544@Update.UU.SE> <90C96986-E0F5-41C1-BF6D-BA7AD223CB44@cs.ubc.ca> <005401d09c8d$aa2afc50$fe80f4f0$@com>
Message-ID: <00a201d09f43$99c47a40$cd4d6ec0$@com>
>Ethan Dicks [ethan.dicks at gmail.com] wrote:
>did not come with a removable cartridge so I've not been able to spin it up
Yes, one of the annoyances of the RC25 is that you can't spin it up w/o the removable platter in place. I have only one cartridge myself, and it's probably bad. Somebody needs to come up with a hack to spin up the Winchester part alone (hint, hint :-)
>One I've seen is to nibble a chunk out of the rim of the cover skin (to prevent pinching) and run a BC-11-A
> Unibus ribbon cable out to a BA-11 and stick any number of controllers in that
Doesn't the 725 have one of the regular bulkhead connector panels on the back? The one with the modular screw in plates? If so, ISTR that there's a cable clamp one that will clear a BC11 cable.
In any case, I have no need for such foolishness :-) I have a perfectly good 730 too, with a BA11-K expander in the next rack. It works great, and that configuration (with the 730 instead of the 725) was even supported although uncommon. I should go out in the garage and check how the UNIBUS cable is routed for you.
Besides, the cool thing (for me, at least) about the 725 was the packaging. Any replacement drive would have to fit inside the original box to suit my taste.
The best option I've come up with is an SMD UNIBUS controller (I have just exactly one!) and a small SMD drive. There were some small SMD drives that I think would fit inside the 725 case. The front panel wouldn't be right, but it's better than nothing. As you said, SCSI would be better, but I don't have a UNIBUS controller.
What I'd really like is to build a "LESI disk emulator" that could just plug into the AZTEC controller, but as far as I've ever been able to determine, DEC never documented LESI. Or at least none of the documentation ever escaped.
BTW, my 725 is missing the outer sheet metal skin. The previous owner apparently didn't think it was important and discarded it. If anybody happens to have an extra VAX-11/725 skin, I'd love to know.
Bob
From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Jun 5 12:31:43 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2015 13:31:43 -0400
Subject: Unibus SCSI - was Re: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC
cartridge ID
In-Reply-To:
References:
<20150528040526.GA29544@Update.UU.SE>
<20150528060218.GB29544@Update.UU.SE>
<90C96986-E0F5-41C1-BF6D-BA7AD223CB44@cs.ubc.ca>
<005401d09c8d$aa2afc50$fe80f4f0$@com>
Message-ID: <5571DCFF.4000606@telegraphics.com.au>
On 2015-06-04 8:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> ... Unibus SCSI, OTOH, is
> not common, but a joy if you can find one.
This one ends in 8 hours.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AVIV-Emulex-UC07-SCSI-Quad-Wide-Q-Bus-Digital-Equipment-LSI-11-MicroVAX-PDP-11-/261903555279
--Toby
>
> -ethan
>
From isking at uw.edu Fri Jun 5 12:52:25 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 17:52:25 +0000
Subject: Unibus SCSI - was Re: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC
cartridge ID
In-Reply-To: <5571DCFF.4000606@telegraphics.com.au>
References:
<20150528040526.GA29544@Update.UU.SE>
<20150528060218.GB29544@Update.UU.SE>
<90C96986-E0F5-41C1-BF6D-BA7AD223CB44@cs.ubc.ca>
<005401d09c8d$aa2afc50$fe80f4f0$@com>
<5571DCFF.4000606@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID:
The UC07 manual on Bitsavers shows this as a Qbus adapter - although I'd
sure think it was Unibus from the name. The seller calls it out as Qbus
and the documents back him/her up.
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 2015-06-04 8:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>
>> ... Unibus SCSI, OTOH, is
>> not common, but a joy if you can find one.
>>
>
> This one ends in 8 hours.
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/AVIV-Emulex-UC07-SCSI-Quad-Wide-Q-Bus-Digital-Equipment-LSI-11-MicroVAX-PDP-11-/261903555279
>
> --Toby
>
>
>
>> -ethan
>>
>>
>
--
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab
University of Washington
There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."
From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 13:05:00 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 14:05:00 -0400
Subject: Unibus SCSI - was Re: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC
cartridge ID
In-Reply-To:
References:
<20150528040526.GA29544@Update.UU.SE>
<20150528060218.GB29544@Update.UU.SE>
<90C96986-E0F5-41C1-BF6D-BA7AD223CB44@cs.ubc.ca>
<005401d09c8d$aa2afc50$fe80f4f0$@com>
<5571DCFF.4000606@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID:
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Ian S. King wrote:
> The UC07 manual on Bitsavers shows this as a Qbus adapter - although I'd
> sure think it was Unibus from the name. The seller calls it out as Qbus
> and the documents back him/her up.
Yeah. I have one. It's Qbus. Nothing wrong with it - that's about
the going price from what I've seen, but it's not Unibus.
-ethan
> On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>> On 2015-06-04 8:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>
>>> ... Unibus SCSI, OTOH, is
>>> not common, but a joy if you can find one.
>>
>> This one ends in 8 hours.
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/AVIV-Emulex-UC07-SCSI-Quad-Wide-Q-Bus-Digital-Equipment-LSI-11-MicroVAX-PDP-11-/261903555279
-ethan
From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jun 5 13:06:33 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 14:06:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Distribution panels (cab kits) for DZV11/DZQ11
Message-ID: <20150605180633.125BC18C15E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> From: Glen Slick
> There is this distribution panel on eBay at the moment, but I think
> this might be the H3173-A version for the M3104 DHV11 / M3107 DHQ11
Yes, it is - I got several of those from him, but he only had one of the
DZV11/DZQ11 ones (which are, simply by looking at them, indistinquishable
from the DHV11/DHQ11 ones - one has to look at the part numbers to
distinguish them, they are so similar - well, to be hyper-precise, there are
two variants of the DHV11/DHQ11 one, one with the Berg on the side, and one
with the one of the top, and it's the latter which is visually almost
identical).
> The 70-19964-00 distribution panels I have for the M7957 DZV11 / M3106
> DZQ11 have arrows screened on to the front of the panels between the
> DB25 connectors. (I'm not sure what the arrow is supposed to indicate).
Which way around to install them, or which port is #0, would be my guess.
I've seen a similar arrow on the dist panel for the DLV11-J (which also comes
in two distinct variants).
Noel
From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Fri Jun 5 16:02:11 2015
From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2015 15:02:11 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: DEC Runoff to any modern format conversion or DEC MSCP protocol
specs
In-Reply-To: <203CE35E-097F-4A79-89C5-80AFE6CB3B6C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: