From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 1 00:23:40 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 22:23:40 -0700 Subject: Bruker Aspect 2000 tapes In-Reply-To: References: , , <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net>, , Message-ID: > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > On 2015-Jun-30, at 5:22 PM, dwight wrote: > > Hi All > > I have a number of tapes for the Bruker Aspect 2000. > > These are paper tapes. All looking for a good home. > > I'd like these to go to someone with one of these computers. > > It looks like it included the OS. These are paper tape, not mag tape. > > Free Plus shipping. > > Is that the CPU that went with their NMR systems from the 70s? > A few years ago I examined the RF exciter portion of a Bruker NMR that had been dismantled and sold off as surplus. > Wish I knew what happened to the CPU/processing portion, but it had already been separated by the time I was involved. > > Something I could wish to find/stumble-across would be one of the out-of-the-mainstream minis from the 60s/70s - something not DEC, not HP, not IBM, not DG (although a little Nova would be nice). Not likely these days as they were produced in relatively scant numbers. I Believe these were made in the middle to late 70's. I understand they were24 bit. They were probably TTL.Bruker used Nicolet computers until they build their own. They made both the 2000and the 3000. That is about all I know about them.They were designed in Germany.Dwight From simski at dds.nl Wed Jul 1 02:02:00 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2015 09:02:00 +0200 Subject: Logos and typefaces and fonts (oh, my!) [was: RE: DEC Logo] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEB2C4B8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEB2C4B8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <55939068.10405@dds.nl> yeah, font, typeface, whatever. 30-06-15 21:21, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Dave G4UGM > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 8:43 AM > >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Toby Thain >>> Sent: 30 June 2015 14:10 > >>> On 2015-06-30 4:44 AM, simon wrote: > >>>> On 29-06-15 14:56, Toby Thain wrote: > >>>>> On 2015-06-29 3:54 AM, simon wrote: > >>>>>> the front of the internal bus options maintenance manual in front of me. >>>>>> But looking at the f in 8/f gives me the impression they mixed some >>>>>> fonts for the logo and taking a closer look at the line: > >>>>>> "digital equipment corporation . maynard. massachusetts" > >>>>>> is proving both of us wrong. the y in maynard is a rounded version, >>>>>> but both futura and avant garde hve a straight y. > >>>>>> "...the search continues..." > >>>>> Can you scan the page you're looking at? > >>>> tada.wav: https://hack42.nl/mediawiki/images/a/a7/Dec_footer.png > >>>> it is also used on the front of the pdp8/f here at our museum. > >> If it?s the oldest logo why do Straight Eights have a serifed font... > >> http://dustyoldcomputers.com/pdp8/images-3C8F62C8/R3378-hp.jpg > > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/DEC/pdp-1/DEC.pdp_1.1960.102652405.pdf > > This early brochure for the PDP-1 features the vertical d > e > c > logo in a picture, as well as a serif face for titles and *on the machine*. > > Our PDP-7 likewise has a serif face for "Digital Equipment Corporation" on its > name plate, with an outline block sans-serif "PDP-7". A brief survey of the > manuals for the 18-bit systems on Bitsavers shows that the change from a serif > face for titles occurred during the development of the PDP-7 documentation: > The preliminary edition of the User Handbook has the system name in a block > serif typeface, while the release edition has the name in a block sans-serif. > The PDP-6 (36-bit system) also uses the serif face; the PDP-8 is schizophrenic, > and the PDP-9 et seq. use sans-serif. > > Note that I use the terms (type)face and logo, not "font". Until Apple > bastardized the term, a _font_ was a package of metal type in a particular > _typeface_, and was the unit by which type was ordered from a foundry. A > _logo_ was a special item, cast as a single unit for printing, not a collection > of individual pieces of type. > > Someone in this thread mentioned having been in the graphics design trade, and > can certainly back me up on this, as well as on the fact that advertising > houses and departments generally designed their own lettering for lithographic > reproduction rather than using commercially available typefaces; the latter > were used for printed materials consisting of large stretches of text rather > than one-offs. (A company might adopt a face, or commission one, as part of > the house identity, in which case the lettering done by the graphics people > would probably resemble the face, but it's unlikely that it would be cast at > the large sizes needed for advertising, since each size requires a set of steel > punches to be engraved and a set of matrices to be produced.) > > Rich > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From simski at dds.nl Wed Jul 1 01:58:07 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2015 08:58:07 +0200 Subject: DEC Logo In-Reply-To: <55929542.6030304@telegraphics.com.au> References: <55825BDD.6050501@btinternet.com> <20150618115440.GZ30726@Update.UU.SE> <88722826-7342-4B8F-9E58-0AD069529E1B@fozztexx.com> <55907676.8050001@dds.nl> <5590A9A7.4010400@telegraphics.com.au> <5590B27B.8030801@telegraphics.com.au> <5590F9B8.3000604@dds.nl> <55914074.3080406@telegraphics.com.au> <559256F2.40608@dds.nl> <55929542.6030304@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <55938F7F.7070300@dds.nl> On 30-06-15 15:10, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2015-06-30 4:44 AM, simon wrote: >> >> >> On 29-06-15 14:56, Toby Thain wrote: >>> On 2015-06-29 3:54 AM, simon wrote: >>>> the front of the internal bus options maintenance manual in front of >>>> me. >>>> But looking at the f in 8/f gives me the impression they mixed some >>>> fonts for the logo and taking a closer look at the line: >>>> >>>> "digital equipment corporation . maynard. massachusetts" >>>> >>>> is proving both of us wrong. the y in maynard is a rounded version, but >>>> both futura and avant garde hve a straight y. >>>> >>>> "...the search continues..." >>> >>> Can you scan the page you're looking at? >>> >> >> tada.wav: https://hack42.nl/mediawiki/images/a/a7/Dec_footer.png >> >> it is also used on the front of the pdp8/f here at our museum. > > Right. This isn't Futura or Avant Garde. It's the font Paul K. and I > have been discussing - similar to Chalet but possibly a custom font. > > --Toby > > >> >> simon > > yes, that is what i stated in my mail from 20150629. -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From tmfdmike at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 05:21:32 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 06:21:32 -0400 Subject: Where to get a Vax or microvax In-Reply-To: <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> References: <559193E1.6020401@update.uu.se> <55919C86.2060403@update.uu.se> <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Well if we're all putting down markers, I have an 11/780 and /730; I'd love a /750 to round out the collection. I used to have one, back in mid 1990s it was one of the first machines I collected... Got it up and running VMS, then loaned it to a friend, forgot to ask for it back, lost touch with friend... Mike On Jul 1, 2015 11:48 AM, "Peter Coghlan" wrote: > william degnan wrote: > > > > I recently got a Microvax 3100 and a VAX 4000-200, very pleased with how > > easy they are to work with. I have had a lot more issues with > > Alpahservers. VAX/Aphas running one flavor or another of openVMS. > > > > I agree with Ian, think the 3100's are a good starter VAX. My 3100 > system > > has two SCSI external drives to beef it up. You get what you pay for, > try > > to find something in nice shape that works and pay a little extra. My > > opinion. > > Bill > > At one time, it was possible to get considerably more than you pay for. > I've > got several VAX 2000 / 3100 / 4000 systems. All were freebies / scrounged > / > rescue machines. A few have battery corrosion issues but most of them work > fine. Unfortunately, ebay, along with the sources drying up has probably > greatly reduced the likelyhood of anything like them turning up for free > now. > > If you do get something in this line, remove the battery and put up with > it not keeping time or boot settings when switched off. > > Regards. > Peter Coghlan. > From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jul 1 05:36:57 2015 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 11:36:57 +0100 Subject: Where to get a Vax or microvax In-Reply-To: <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> References: <559193E1.6020401@update.uu.se> <55919C86.2060403@update.uu.se> <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On 29 June 2015 at 23:04, Johnny Billquist wrote: > I don't remember if I have the printsets for the 8650, but we (Update) > sure have quite a lot of documentation for it. > > IIRC I do have some 8600 *training* printsets which I scanned and made available years ago. I think some *real* printsets are available on bitsavers. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jul 1 07:10:29 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2015 13:10:29 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: list consolidation Message-ID: <01PNTS7FPLVM0084J5@beyondthepale.ie> > > FYI - in the fairly near term, I plan to get rid of the "two views of the > same list" configuration on the classiccmp server. It has always created a > rather large administrative burden, but also lately just has not been > working right (problems subscribing, duplicate emails, a continuous stream > of bounces, etc.). The list would go back to the way it used to be - one > list, one view, at classiccmp at classiccmp.org. > Excellent. Thank you Jay for providing this unique resource and for putting up with all the grief that goes with it. I've looked after a few mailing lists in a previous life but only on the technical side. It was difficult enough at times and I am well aware how hard it is to please everyone but I've never had to deal with the flamefests, feuds, off-topicness and other human issues so I can only admire your patience, tolerance and ability to achieve the seemingly impossible as a matter of routine, not to mention managing to keep the level of spam which gets through to as near to absolute zero as it gets. > > The primary reason for the "two view" paradigm was due to (at the time) some > very substantial off-topicness, flamewars, etc. For a period of time I was > not regularly reading the list and thus missed those things when they were > occurring. For the past year or so (and it will very likely continue that > way) I have been back to regularly watching/reading the list - so on my part > I will do a better job monitoring the list for "outbreaks", and will email > the involved parties off-list whenever (if) it starts to occur. In addition, > many of the most vocal flamers are no longer here. Separately, those who are > more irked by off-topicness I would ask to get slightly more familiar with > the DEL key J > I hope that we will all do our best to restrain ourselves and keep things civil and on-topic and to think carefully about whether what we are about to post will be a useful contribution to the discussion that at least a portion of the membership will be likely to be interested in reading and that we will bear in mind that some effort in presentation has only to be made once by the poster but will be greatly appreciated by the all of the many recipients when they find the conversation that much easier to follow. For me, the DEL key simply does not function as a solution to those who prefer to have write-only access to mailing lists and I tend to reach for the UNSUB key instead. Thankfully this has never been necessary here, due in no small part to the behind the scenes hard work of Jay and the list moderators. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jul 1 13:48:08 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 13:48:08 -0500 Subject: equipment available Message-ID: <001201d0b42e$79464cd0$6bd2e670$@classiccmp.org> Some have asked if I'm just posting gear from ads I see online in my "equipment available" deals. The answer is no; I very frequently get individuals emailing me directly about systems they want to dispose of, so unless I was blind-CC'd, these equipment available deals are generally not known elsewhere (not ebay, craigslist, etc.). When I pass these deals on to someone, I don't ask anything in return. Just want to see the gear saved by an interested party. So. a new email just crossed my desk for HP fans. A service company is wanting to divest (ie. $ell) their legacy HP inventory consisting of.. . (3) HP1000 A900 2199E chassis. . (41) A900, (12) A990, and (12) E-Series PCB boards such as sequencer, memory controller and memory, data path, cache controller, interface boards (Mux, HPIB, Serial, 802.3 LAN). . Tape Drives (7979 and 7980). . Terminals (2392A, 700/94). . Disk Drives (7937XP, C2203, 670XP). I have no interest in A series machines myself. I always have an interest in spare E-series boards, so that part of it I may pursue. If anyone is interested in the rest, please contact me off-list and I'll put you directly in touch with the seller/owner. For fans of the 1000 21MX M/E/F, please note that the A-series are fairly "different" machines and not interchangeable with M/E/F boxes. Best, J From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 13:48:34 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 11:48:34 -0700 Subject: Recommendations for Packers/Freighters near Fresno, CA? Message-ID: Hi all -- I have a full-height rack of computer stuff I need to get packed up and shipped from near Fresno, CA (Reedly, to be specific). I was hoping to use Craters & Freighters as I've used them before and they seem to do OK work, but they don't have a location near enough. I'm not too familiar with other options -- anyone know of anyone in that area that they'd recommend? Or maybe a long road trip is in my future. And a truck... Thanks, Josh From b4 at gewt.net Wed Jul 1 13:53:56 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 14:53:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: equipment available In-Reply-To: <001201d0b42e$79464cd0$6bd2e670$@classiccmp.org> References: <001201d0b42e$79464cd0$6bd2e670$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jul 2015, Jay West wrote: > Some have asked if I'm just posting gear from ads I see online in my > "equipment available" deals. The answer is no; I very frequently get > individuals emailing me directly about systems they want to dispose of, so > unless I was blind-CC'd, these equipment available deals are generally not > known elsewhere (not ebay, craigslist, etc.). When I pass these deals on to > someone, I don't ask anything in return. Just want to see the gear saved by > an interested party. > > > > So. a new email just crossed my desk for HP fans. > > > I'd be interested in the A-series stuff but highly doubt I could afford any of it. > A service company is wanting to divest (ie. $ell) their legacy HP inventory > consisting of.. > > > > . (3) HP1000 A900 2199E chassis. > > . (41) A900, (12) A990, and (12) E-Series PCB boards such as > sequencer, memory controller and memory, data path, cache controller, > interface boards (Mux, HPIB, Serial, 802.3 LAN). > > . Tape Drives (7979 and 7980). > > . Terminals (2392A, 700/94). > > . Disk Drives (7937XP, C2203, 670XP). > > > > I have no interest in A series machines myself. I always have an interest in > spare E-series boards, so that part of it I may pursue. If anyone is > interested in the rest, please contact me off-list and I'll put you directly > in touch with the seller/owner. For fans of the 1000 21MX M/E/F, please note > that the A-series are fairly "different" machines and not interchangeable > with M/E/F boxes. > > > > Best, > > > > J > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 13:55:04 2015 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 14:55:04 -0400 Subject: equipment available In-Reply-To: References: <001201d0b42e$79464cd0$6bd2e670$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Where's the equipment located? Todd Killingsworth On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On Wed, 1 Jul 2015, Jay West wrote: > > Some have asked if I'm just posting gear from ads I see online in my >> "equipment available" deals. The answer is no; I very frequently get >> individuals emailing me directly about systems they want to dispose of, so >> unless I was blind-CC'd, these equipment available deals are generally not >> known elsewhere (not ebay, craigslist, etc.). When I pass these deals on >> to >> someone, I don't ask anything in return. Just want to see the gear saved >> by >> an interested party. >> >> >> >> So. a new email just crossed my desk for HP fans. >> >> >> >> > I'd be interested in the A-series stuff but highly doubt I could afford > any of it. > > > A service company is wanting to divest (ie. $ell) their legacy HP >> inventory >> consisting of.. >> >> >> >> . (3) HP1000 A900 2199E chassis. >> >> . (41) A900, (12) A990, and (12) E-Series PCB boards such as >> sequencer, memory controller and memory, data path, cache controller, >> interface boards (Mux, HPIB, Serial, 802.3 LAN). >> >> . Tape Drives (7979 and 7980). >> >> . Terminals (2392A, 700/94). >> >> . Disk Drives (7937XP, C2203, 670XP). >> >> >> >> I have no interest in A series machines myself. I always have an interest >> in >> spare E-series boards, so that part of it I may pursue. If anyone is >> interested in the rest, please contact me off-list and I'll put you >> directly >> in touch with the seller/owner. For fans of the 1000 21MX M/E/F, please >> note >> that the A-series are fairly "different" machines and not interchangeable >> with M/E/F boxes. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> J >> >> >> > -- > Cory Smelosky > http://gewt.net Personal stuff > http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jul 1 13:59:38 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 13:59:38 -0500 Subject: equipment available In-Reply-To: References: <001201d0b42e$79464cd0$6bd2e670$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001c01d0b430$14b80ae0$3e2820a0$@classiccmp.org> I'm so sorry, forgot to include that. I'm waiting on a phone call back from the owner, but from what I can tell I suspect the equipment location is Northern New Jersey. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Todd Killingsworth Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 1:55 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: equipment available Where's the equipment located? Todd Killingsworth On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On Wed, 1 Jul 2015, Jay West wrote: > > Some have asked if I'm just posting gear from ads I see online in my >> "equipment available" deals. The answer is no; I very frequently get >> individuals emailing me directly about systems they want to dispose >> of, so unless I was blind-CC'd, these equipment available deals are >> generally not known elsewhere (not ebay, craigslist, etc.). When I >> pass these deals on to someone, I don't ask anything in return. Just >> want to see the gear saved by an interested party. >> >> >> >> So. a new email just crossed my desk for HP fans. >> >> >> >> > I'd be interested in the A-series stuff but highly doubt I could > afford any of it. > > > A service company is wanting to divest (ie. $ell) their legacy HP >> inventory >> consisting of.. >> >> >> >> . (3) HP1000 A900 2199E chassis. >> >> . (41) A900, (12) A990, and (12) E-Series PCB boards such as >> sequencer, memory controller and memory, data path, cache controller, >> interface boards (Mux, HPIB, Serial, 802.3 LAN). >> >> . Tape Drives (7979 and 7980). >> >> . Terminals (2392A, 700/94). >> >> . Disk Drives (7937XP, C2203, 670XP). >> >> >> >> I have no interest in A series machines myself. I always have an >> interest in spare E-series boards, so that part of it I may pursue. >> If anyone is interested in the rest, please contact me off-list and >> I'll put you directly in touch with the seller/owner. For fans of the >> 1000 21MX M/E/F, please note that the A-series are fairly "different" >> machines and not interchangeable with M/E/F boxes. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> J >> >> >> > -- > Cory Smelosky > http://gewt.net Personal stuff > http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects > From kelly at catcorner.org Wed Jul 1 14:06:56 2015 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 19:06:56 +0000 Subject: equipment available In-Reply-To: <001c01d0b430$14b80ae0$3e2820a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <001201d0b42e$79464cd0$6bd2e670$@classiccmp.org> , <001c01d0b430$14b80ae0$3e2820a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Depending where in North Jersey, I can assist in loading/packing if anyone needs help. I have no interest in HP stuff other than idle curiosity. ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jay West Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2015 2:59 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: equipment available I'm so sorry, forgot to include that. I'm waiting on a phone call back from the owner, but from what I can tell I suspect the equipment location is Northern New Jersey. From salgernon at me.com Wed Jul 1 14:09:38 2015 From: salgernon at me.com (Steve Algernon) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2015 12:09:38 -0700 Subject: 48mb NeXT slab ram up for grabs Message-ID: <4D0AE0B8-F19F-4F0F-99C4-7D439AAC38D6@me.com> 2 x 16mb 72 pin 70ns 2 x 8mb 72 pin 70ns pulled from a working next slab that I upgraded; I've no use for them, so FFFS. (Invent an acronym that doesn't involve you having to send me $.73 via paypal and send me your mailing address, or pick up in Ben Lomond, CA) Cheers, --sma From salgernon at me.com Wed Jul 1 14:16:13 2015 From: salgernon at me.com (Steve Algernon) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2015 12:16:13 -0700 Subject: 48mb NeXT slab ram up for grabs In-Reply-To: <4D0AE0B8-F19F-4F0F-99C4-7D439AAC38D6@me.com> References: <4D0AE0B8-F19F-4F0F-99C4-7D439AAC38D6@me.com> Message-ID: <5F06B6D2-69A1-42C0-A80D-E9F1C9AEA203@me.com> Already claimed! Thanks. > On Jul 1, 2015, at 12:09 PM, Steve Algernon wrote: > > 2 x 16mb 72 pin 70ns > 2 x 8mb 72 pin 70ns > > pulled from a working next slab that I upgraded; I've no use for them, so FFFS. (Invent an acronym that doesn't involve you having to send me $.73 via paypal and send me your mailing address, or pick up in Ben Lomond, CA) > > Cheers, > --sma > From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Jul 1 14:22:01 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 19:22:01 +0000 Subject: Recommendations for Packers/Freighters near Fresno, CA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <279B847A-3095-4350-9CC3-F0334224C19B@swri.edu> Josh, Forward Air did OK with a pallet I shipped to Ethan D.. I drove my car up with computers, straps, cardboard, and shrink-wrap. They pointed me at a pallet, I took a few hours to stack computers on the pallet, pad them with pieces of torn-up cardboard, strap them down, cocoon the whole thing with shrink-wrap. They fork-lifted it onto a scale and then their truck. I think it made it pretty intact, but you?ll have to ask Ethan about that. Price seemed fairly ... pallet-able ? ahem. :-) or at least competitive with Craters & Freighters, which was my other possible option. - Mark On Jul 1, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I have a full-height rack of computer stuff I need to get packed up and > shipped from near Fresno, CA (Reedly, to be specific). I was hoping to use > Craters & Freighters as I've used them before and they seem to do OK work, > but they don't have a location near enough. I'm not too familiar with > other options -- anyone know of anyone in that area that they'd recommend? > > Or maybe a long road trip is in my future. And a truck... > > Thanks, > Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 14:33:22 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 12:33:22 -0700 Subject: Recommendations for Packers/Freighters near Fresno, CA? In-Reply-To: <279B847A-3095-4350-9CC3-F0334224C19B@swri.edu> References: <279B847A-3095-4350-9CC3-F0334224C19B@swri.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Mark. The catch here is that the guy I'm getting the stuff from isn't going to be able to help with the packing process -- I need to hire someone to go to his place, pick the stuff up, pack it and ship it (which Craters & Freighters will do, for a fee...) Thanks, Josh On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > Josh, > Forward Air did OK with a pallet I shipped to Ethan D.. I drove my > car up with computers, straps, cardboard, and shrink-wrap. They pointed me > at a pallet, I took a few hours to stack computers on the pallet, pad them > with pieces of torn-up cardboard, strap them down, cocoon the whole thing > with shrink-wrap. They fork-lifted it onto a scale and then their truck. I > think it made it pretty intact, but you?ll have to ask Ethan about that. > Price seemed fairly ... pallet-able ? ahem. :-) or at least competitive > with Craters & Freighters, which was my other possible option. > > - Mark > > On Jul 1, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > Hi all -- > > > > I have a full-height rack of computer stuff I need to get packed up and > > shipped from near Fresno, CA (Reedly, to be specific). I was hoping to > use > > Craters & Freighters as I've used them before and they seem to do OK > work, > > but they don't have a location near enough. I'm not too familiar with > > other options -- anyone know of anyone in that area that they'd > recommend? > > > > Or maybe a long road trip is in my future. And a truck... > > > > Thanks, > > Josh > > From isking at uw.edu Wed Jul 1 16:11:41 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 14:11:41 -0700 Subject: Where to get a Vax or microvax In-Reply-To: <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> References: <559193E1.6020401@update.uu.se> <55919C86.2060403@update.uu.se> <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > william degnan wrote: > > > > I recently got a Microvax 3100 and a VAX 4000-200, very pleased with how > > easy they are to work with. I have had a lot more issues with > > Alpahservers. VAX/Aphas running one flavor or another of openVMS. > > > > I agree with Ian, think the 3100's are a good starter VAX. My 3100 > system > > has two SCSI external drives to beef it up. You get what you pay for, > try > > to find something in nice shape that works and pay a little extra. My > > opinion. > > Bill > > At one time, it was possible to get considerably more than you pay for. > I've > got several VAX 2000 / 3100 / 4000 systems. All were freebies / scrounged > / > rescue machines. A few have battery corrosion issues but most of them work > fine. Unfortunately, ebay, along with the sources drying up has probably > greatly reduced the likelyhood of anything like them turning up for free > now. > > If you do get something in this line, remove the battery and put up with > it not keeping time or boot settings when switched off. > > I found that for some MicroVAXen, such as my 4000-300, there is a Panasonic cordless phone battery that almost exactly fits where the original TOY battery does, and the connector is the same! I've mentioned it here on CC, so the part number should be in the archives. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jul 1 16:21:52 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 16:21:52 -0500 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 06:54:51PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Something I could wish to find/stumble-across would be one of the > out-of-the-mainstream minis from the 60s/70s - something not DEC, > not HP, not IBM, not DG (although a little Nova would be nice). I had to suffer through building something on a Computer Automation mini back in the, well, never you mind when it was. (The misery was not the mini's fault). So I would take one of those if it came available. Still hoping for an 11/20, of course. mcl From mspproductions at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 16:26:14 2015 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 17:26:14 -0400 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> Message-ID: Varian made interesting mini computers with a very cool front panel. I think RCA at one time also made smaller computers along with the Spectra/70 mainframe series. On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 5:21 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 06:54:51PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Something I could wish to find/stumble-across would be one of the > > out-of-the-mainstream minis from the 60s/70s - something not DEC, > > not HP, not IBM, not DG (although a little Nova would be nice). > > I had to suffer through building something on a Computer Automation > mini back in the, well, never you mind when it was. (The misery was > not the mini's fault). So I would take one of those if it came > available. > > Still hoping for an 11/20, of course. > > mcl > -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions (330)542-3698 mspproductions at gmail.com KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 1 16:47:10 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 22:47:10 +0100 Subject: Where to get a Vax or microvax In-Reply-To: References: <559193E1.6020401@update.uu.se> <55919C86.2060403@update.uu.se> <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <024001d0b447$7c05b190$741114b0$@ntlworld.com> > I found that for some MicroVAXen, such as my 4000-300, there is a Panasonic > cordless phone battery that almost exactly fits where the original TOY battery > does, and the connector is the same! I've mentioned it here on CC, so the part > number should be in the archives. Yes, I have done something similar. Here in the UK Maplin sells these, although they are relatively expensive. Regards Rob From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jul 1 16:56:43 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 14:56:43 -0700 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 2015-Jul-01, at 2:26 PM, Matt Patoray wrote: > On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 5:21 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 06:54:51PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> Something I could wish to find/stumble-across would be one of the >>> out-of-the-mainstream minis from the 60s/70s - something not DEC, >>> not HP, not IBM, not DG (although a little Nova would be nice). >> >> I had to suffer through building something on a Computer Automation >> mini back in the, well, never you mind when it was. (The misery was >> not the mini's fault). So I would take one of those if it came >> available. >> >> Still hoping for an 11/20, of course. > Varian made interesting mini computers with a very cool front panel. > > I think RCA at one time also made smaller computers along with the > Spectra/70 mainframe series. It's always surprising how much variety there was in the mini market of that era. Even when you take out what might be called the 2nd tier of manufacturers such as Microdata, Prime and so on, there was still a plethora of also-rans. I find it an interesting era: once ICs were readily available and easy to design with (mainly TTL), everyone and their dog decided they would take a stab at building and marketing a CPU. I was a kid in that era so wasn't on the inside, but my offhand interpretation is that while some of them may have been successful in niche areas such as instrumentation, in the main they got shook out when the reality of maintaining, marketing and evolving a system architecture hit. But, that's an historical progression common to many/most new technologies - same thing happened in the microprocessor market a few years a later. A Varian has been sitting on ebay for sometime now .. sitting, because the price is silly: http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-VARIAN-DATA-MACHINES-620-L-100-COMPUTER-/220737926675?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3365017613 From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jul 1 17:22:04 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 17:22:04 -0500 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> On Wed, Jul 01, 2015 at 05:26:14PM -0400, Matt Patoray wrote: > I think RCA at one time also made smaller computers along with the > Spectra/70 mainframe series. If anyone has a front panel from one of those to sell ... :-) (I only saw one, as a kid, in high school. It was neat industrial design.) mcl From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 21:13:08 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 22:13:08 -0400 Subject: Where to get a Vax or microvax In-Reply-To: <024001d0b447$7c05b190$741114b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <559193E1.6020401@update.uu.se> <55919C86.2060403@update.uu.se> <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <024001d0b447$7c05b190$741114b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: The Microvax 3100 model DV-31BT4-A - what "number" is that model? Originally I thought it was a "30" but then I found that there are 3100-30 nameplates, so I must be wrong. Was there just a plain vanilla Microvax 3100? Now you have me thinking I need to check for a battery. I need to track down the hardware ref but I am unsure other than open it to see for myself. On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I found that for some MicroVAXen, such as my 4000-300, there is a > Panasonic > > cordless phone battery that almost exactly fits where the original TOY > battery > > does, and the connector is the same! I've mentioned it here on CC, so > the part > > number should be in the archives. > > Yes, I have done something similar. Here in the UK Maplin sells these, > although they are relatively expensive. > > Regards > > Rob > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 21:23:01 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 19:23:01 -0700 Subject: Where to get a Vax or microvax In-Reply-To: References: <559193E1.6020401@update.uu.se> <55919C86.2060403@update.uu.se> <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <024001d0b447$7c05b190$741114b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2015 7:13 PM, "william degnan" wrote: > > The Microvax 3100 model DV-31BT4-A - what "number" is that model? > Originally I thought it was a "30" but then I found that there are 3100-30 > nameplates, so I must be wrong. Was there just a plain vanilla Microvax > 3100? Now you have me thinking I need to check for a battery. I need to > track down the hardware ref but I am unsure other than open it to see for > myself. > The KA41-A was either a MicroVAX 3100 Model 10 or a Model 20 depending on which box it was in. I have a couple 3100 Model 20 and an InfoServer 100 which is the same hardware with different firmware. http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/microvaxes.html#section:microvaxes From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 21:47:26 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 22:47:26 -0400 Subject: Where to get a Vax or microvax In-Reply-To: References: <559193E1.6020401@update.uu.se> <55919C86.2060403@update.uu.se> <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <024001d0b447$7c05b190$741114b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Not that I doubt you but where is the DV-31BT4-A specifically referenced? How do you know that this is the KA41-A 10 or 20? On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:23 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Jul 1, 2015 7:13 PM, "william degnan" wrote: > > > > The Microvax 3100 model DV-31BT4-A - what "number" is that model? > > Originally I thought it was a "30" but then I found that there are > 3100-30 > > nameplates, so I must be wrong. Was there just a plain vanilla Microvax > > 3100? Now you have me thinking I need to check for a battery. I need to > > track down the hardware ref but I am unsure other than open it to see for > > myself. > > > > The KA41-A was either a MicroVAX 3100 Model 10 or a Model 20 depending on > which box it was in. I have a couple 3100 Model 20 and an InfoServer 100 > which is the same hardware with different firmware. > > > http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/microvaxes.html#section:microvaxes > From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 21:57:54 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 19:57:54 -0700 Subject: Where to get a Vax or microvax In-Reply-To: References: <559193E1.6020401@update.uu.se> <55919C86.2060403@update.uu.se> <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <024001d0b447$7c05b190$741114b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 7:13 PM, william degnan wrote: > The Microvax 3100 model DV-31BT4-A - what "number" is that model? > Originally I thought it was a "30" but then I found that there are 3100-30 > nameplates, so I must be wrong. Was there just a plain vanilla Microvax > 3100? Now you have me thinking I need to check for a battery. I need to > track down the hardware ref but I am unsure other than open it to see for > myself. I just went and took a look at one of my MicroVAX 3100 Model 20 boxes. The label on the back says Model DV-31BT1-A. No idea what the difference might be between that and a DV-31BT4-A. The badge on the front only says MicroVAX 3100 just like your picture here: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=604 When you power it on what does it say for the KA**-* CPU version? If it says KA41-A then it is a Model 20. A KA41-D would be a Model 20e. Or if you were to open it up and look at the part number on the CPU board: 54-18856-01 MicroVAX 3100 Model 10 / Model 20 KA41-AA (90ns) 54-18856-02 VAXserver 3100 Model 10 / Model 20 KA41-BA (90ns) 54-18856-04 MicroVAX 3100 Model 10e / Model 20e KA41-DA (60ns) 54-18856-05 VAXserver 3100 Model 10e / Model 20e KA41-EA (60ns) 70-28103-01 InfoServer 100 KA41-CA 54-18856-06 InfoServer 150 Reference: MicroVAX 3100 / VAXserver 3100 / InfoServer 100 SYSTEMS Illustrated Parts Breakdown EK-A0372-IP-003 A0372IP3.PDF From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 22:23:59 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 23:23:59 -0400 Subject: Where to get a Vax or microvax In-Reply-To: References: <559193E1.6020401@update.uu.se> <55919C86.2060403@update.uu.se> <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <024001d0b447$7c05b190$741114b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: ok. I will check it asap. Thanks for the info. basically this is a box turns on and works...so I have not spent much time other than just change the PW and access the system, connect to the internet quickly. You're saying yes there is a battery in this machine? On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:57 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 7:13 PM, william degnan > wrote: > > The Microvax 3100 model DV-31BT4-A - what "number" is that model? > > Originally I thought it was a "30" but then I found that there are > 3100-30 > > nameplates, so I must be wrong. Was there just a plain vanilla Microvax > > 3100? Now you have me thinking I need to check for a battery. I need to > > track down the hardware ref but I am unsure other than open it to see for > > myself. > > I just went and took a look at one of my MicroVAX 3100 Model 20 boxes. > The label on the back says Model DV-31BT1-A. No idea what the > difference might be between that and a DV-31BT4-A. The badge on the > front only says MicroVAX 3100 just like your picture here: > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=604 > > When you power it on what does it say for the KA**-* CPU version? If > it says KA41-A then it is a Model 20. A KA41-D would be a Model 20e. > > Or if you were to open it up and look at the part number on the CPU board: > 54-18856-01 MicroVAX 3100 Model 10 / Model 20 KA41-AA (90ns) > 54-18856-02 VAXserver 3100 Model 10 / Model 20 KA41-BA (90ns) > 54-18856-04 MicroVAX 3100 Model 10e / Model 20e KA41-DA (60ns) > 54-18856-05 VAXserver 3100 Model 10e / Model 20e KA41-EA (60ns) > 70-28103-01 InfoServer 100 KA41-CA > 54-18856-06 InfoServer 150 > > Reference: > MicroVAX 3100 / VAXserver 3100 / InfoServer 100 SYSTEMS > Illustrated Parts Breakdown > EK-A0372-IP-003 > A0372IP3.PDF > From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 22:33:58 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 20:33:58 -0700 Subject: Where to get a Vax or microvax In-Reply-To: References: <559193E1.6020401@update.uu.se> <55919C86.2060403@update.uu.se> <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <024001d0b447$7c05b190$741114b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 8:23 PM, william degnan wrote: > > You're saying yes there is a battery in this machine? MicroVAX 3100, VAXserver 3100, InfoServer 100 and InfoServer 150/150 VXT Maintenance Guide EK-A0372-MG.B01 http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/MDS-1997-10/cd1/VOL001/0357.PDF Pages 5-25, 5-26 (page 166, 167 of the PDF) 5.2.11 Battery Pack Removal Always good to remove those before they leak and damage anything. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 22:42:10 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 23:42:10 -0400 Subject: Where to get a Vax or microvax In-Reply-To: References: <559193E1.6020401@update.uu.se> <55919C86.2060403@update.uu.se> <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <024001d0b447$7c05b190$741114b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: thanks again. I will. I guess I should check my 4000-200 too. On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 11:33 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 8:23 PM, william degnan > wrote: > > > > You're saying yes there is a battery in this machine? > > MicroVAX 3100, VAXserver 3100, > InfoServer 100 and InfoServer 150/150 VXT > Maintenance Guide > EK-A0372-MG.B01 > > > http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/MDS-1997-10/cd1/VOL001/0357.PDF > > Pages 5-25, 5-26 (page 166, 167 of the PDF) > 5.2.11 Battery Pack Removal > > Always good to remove those before they leak and damage anything. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 2 00:31:19 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 05:31:19 +0000 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> , <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> Message-ID: Not all minis came from the States :-) One of my favourite non-mainstream families is the Philips P800 series. It's a 16 bit machine with 16 registers (0 is the program counter and 15 is the stack pointer, rest are mostly general purpose) and separate I/O instructions (not memory-mapped I/O). There were several models with various implementations of the architecture, including P850 (TTL, hardwired not microcoded) P855, P852, P856, P857, P860 (TTL, microcoded) P851 (Custom bitslice ICs, microcoded) P854 (AM2900 bitslice, microcoded) P853 I think (Single chip) No, I don't have all of those... -tony From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 15:57:46 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 16:57:46 -0400 Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear Message-ID: Ive been trying to get a pdp 11 for quite a few years now, I recently found someone selling a 11/34 with related gear in a couple of racks Here in my state of florida. I jumped at the chance and bought it, i have not found anything for sale this close to me before, yet alone in my state. The plan is to go get it all later this week. It is a 11/34 in a rack with a bunch of related Rl drives and a couple of big reel to reel tape drives. Not sure the specifics anymore, after I paid him he took down the ad, and i did not write down the details. What I want to ask is is there anything i should look out for, any precautions I can take to make sure this all gets back in one piece? Especially in relation to the RL drives, ive never dealt with any of this equipment before and am not sure what to expect. The plan is to rent a uhaul trailer and go over there in a truck, and to take everything delicately out of the racks and put it into the trailer, and to put the empty racks into the truck. Any advice that could help or prepare me for what i should expect to need to do once i get there would be much appreciated. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 22:41:24 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 23:41:24 -0400 Subject: Where to get a Vax or microvax In-Reply-To: References: <559193E1.6020401@update.uu.se> <55919C86.2060403@update.uu.se> <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <024001d0b447$7c05b190$741114b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I take it the buried vax 11/780 you found has been sold off by now? I would love to have one of the original larger machines such as the 780, although one of the smaller desktop machines would probably be a more sane decision to start off with. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 22:42:13 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 23:42:13 -0400 Subject: Where to get a Vax or microvax In-Reply-To: References: <559193E1.6020401@update.uu.se> <55919C86.2060403@update.uu.se> <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <024001d0b447$7c05b190$741114b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Oh, a couple people asked my location. I'm in Vero Beach Florida. From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Jul 2 02:43:23 2015 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 09:43:23 +0200 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> , <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> Message-ID: I share your favourite(s). In the danish IT-museum-to-be (www.datamuseum.dk) we have two P857-based systems running. We have lots of spare parts and nearly all documentation, so if you need something, you are welcome to ask. I'm presently building a "table top" version of a system with the P857 CPU, 35cm H x 60 deep x 19" wide, with a dual 8" floppy drive, and a 80486 PC for program loading etc. The system is built into a P859 box. The P859 CPU is special, as it has a V24 connection that goes to a LED display with push buttons. Very nice indeed. For that system, I have developped a Windows based Assembler, and a Windows based simulator. The simulator takes assembled programs (in my system called *.OBJ) and the original source. You can then step through the instructions, and follow them through the text file on the PC. I am presently trying to execute various utility programs, sent to me by a Belgion ex-Philips employee, who did a lot of work on the P800 series. I myself worked with the P800 series, disguised as the PTS6800 series for 4-5 years full time. The PTS 6800 series was used extensively in banks, mainly in Scandinavia, Greece, Barclay SouthAfrica, Philippines. In Sweden also in the airline industry. In Denmark it was used mainly by local authorities, PTT, Railway (ticket printing), and some other small-time projects. In one of the project it was connected to an ATM (fun project). I know of one collector in the Netherlands (Camiel), and some guys who have no hardware but a lot of knowledge /Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: tony duell To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 7:31 AM Subject: RE: out-of-mainstream minis Not all minis came from the States :-) One of my favourite non-mainstream families is the Philips P800 series. It's a 16 bit machine with 16 registers (0 is the program counter and 15 is the stack pointer, rest are mostly general purpose) and separate I/O instructions (not memory-mapped I/O). There were several models with various implementations of the architecture, including P850 (TTL, hardwired not microcoded) P855, P852, P856, P857, P860 (TTL, microcoded) P851 (Custom bitslice ICs, microcoded) P854 (AM2900 bitslice, microcoded) P853 I think (Single chip) No, I don't have all of those... -tony = From jsw at ieee.org Thu Jul 2 03:34:35 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 03:34:35 -0500 Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91903138-2D25-4CD0-8140-FE38A894EF3B@ieee.org> On Jul 1, 2015, at 3:57 PM, devin davison wrote: > > Ive been trying to get a pdp 11 for quite a few years now, I recently found > someone selling a 11/34 with related gear in a couple of racks Here in my > state of florida. I jumped at the chance and bought it, i have not found > anything for sale this close to me before, yet alone in my state. > > The plan is to go get it all later this week. It is a 11/34 in a rack with > a bunch of related Rl drives and a couple of big reel to reel tape drives. > Not sure the specifics anymore, after I paid him he took down the ad, and i > did not write down the details. What I want to ask is is there anything i > should look out for, any precautions I can take to make sure this all gets > back in one piece? Especially in relation to the RL drives, ive never dealt > with any of this equipment before and am not sure what to expect. > > The plan is to rent a uhaul trailer and go over there in a truck, and to > take everything delicately out of the racks and put it into the trailer, > and to put the empty racks into the truck. > > Any advice that could help or prepare me for what i should expect to need > to do once i get there would be much appreciated. In the 80?s my job involved moving a set of 11/34a + 11/23?s cross country each summer to do research for 8 years and back again. We shipped commercially on air cushioned vans, but did all the packing ourselves. The less anything moves or vibrates the better. We left everything in their racks. Our approach was to disconnect all the cables between major subsystems. Everything was marked with duplicates on both sides of cables. We left the cards in the Unibus and QBus, but had padding, covers to make sure the cards wouldn?t vibrate or fall out. Locking slides on rack mount devices and heads on drives was of course mandatory. Had big labels attached to drives and movable parts we had locks on (insert Apollo 13 movie reference about not jettisoning the LM early). Then a heavy layer of packing tape on everything that might move or vibrate. Heaviest components on bottom of all rack. Watch out for tipping and pad with old blankets. Extra straps in the trucks to make everything immobile. These days given the age of this gear, you have to be extra careful on the cables, especially older Unibus BC11A type flat cables. Tough call is on the filters. I?d remove the filters ahead of time if you can and ship in their own container. If they are original they will crumble on touch. Filters and foam pieces will shed particles (or worse). Whether you leave them in or not, you need to open up everything and clean before (if you can) and after moving. Disk packs should be in boxes or padded individually. Other than a bulb in the head positioner in an RK05 going out, I don?t recall major problem restoring the systems. Good luck. Jerry From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 02:17:55 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 03:17:55 -0400 Subject: Where to get a Vax or microvax In-Reply-To: References: <559193E1.6020401@update.uu.se> <55919C86.2060403@update.uu.se> <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <024001d0b447$7c05b190$741114b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Ive got a large sgi altix 350 machine running here almost 24/7, uses quite a bit of power. Rivals the 2 air conditioners on power consumption. Power is not an issue, if i do get something bigger then ill just run the altix less and power up the vax. New house has an air conditioned office in the garage, now would be the best time to get something big i think, but if it is not close it will have to be shipped which would be costly. Maybe ill start off small... From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jul 2 06:51:13 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 07:51:13 -0400 Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear In-Reply-To: <91903138-2D25-4CD0-8140-FE38A894EF3B@ieee.org> References: <91903138-2D25-4CD0-8140-FE38A894EF3B@ieee.org> Message-ID: <559525B1.60605@compsys.to> >Jerry Weiss wrote: >>On Jul 1, 2015, at 3:57 PM, devin davison wrote: > > >>Ive been trying to get a pdp 11 for quite a few years now, I recently found >>someone selling a 11/34 with related gear in a couple of racks Here in my >>state of florida. I jumped at the chance and bought it, i have not found >>anything for sale this close to me before, yet alone in my state. >> >>The plan is to go get it all later this week. It is a 11/34 in a rack with >>a bunch of related Rl drives and a couple of big reel to reel tape drives. >>Not sure the specifics anymore, after I paid him he took down the ad, and i >>did not write down the details. What I want to ask is is there anything i >>should look out for, any precautions I can take to make sure this all gets >>back in one piece? Especially in relation to the RL drives, ive never dealt >>with any of this equipment before and am not sure what to expect. >> >>The plan is to rent a uhaul trailer and go over there in a truck, and to >>take everything delicately out of the racks and put it into the trailer, >>and to put the empty racks into the truck. >> >>Any advice that could help or prepare me for what i should expect to need >>to do once i get there would be much appreciated. >> >In the 80?s my job involved moving a set of 11/34a + 11/23?s cross country each >summer to do research for 8 years and back again. We shipped commercially on >air cushioned vans, but did all the packing ourselves. The less anything moves >or vibrates the better. We left everything in their racks. > >Our approach was to disconnect all the cables between major subsystems. >Everything was marked with duplicates on both sides of cables. We >left the cards in the Unibus and QBus, but had padding, covers to >make sure the cards wouldn?t vibrate or fall out. Locking slides on rack mount >devices and heads on drives was of course mandatory. Had big labels attached >to drives and movable parts we had locks on (insert Apollo 13 movie >reference about not jettisoning the LM early). > >Then a heavy layer of packing tape on everything that might move or vibrate. >Heaviest components on bottom of all rack. Watch out for tipping and pad with old >blankets. Extra straps in the trucks to make everything immobile. > >These days given the age of this gear, you have to be extra careful on the cables, >especially older Unibus BC11A type flat cables. Tough call is on the filters. I?d remove >the filters ahead of time if you can and ship in their own container. If they are original >they will crumble on touch. Filters and foam pieces will shed particles (or worse). >Whether you leave them in or not, you need to open up everything and clean >before (if you can) and after moving. Disk packs should be in boxes or padded individually. > >Other than a bulb in the head positioner in an RK05 going out, I don?t recall >major problem restoring the systems. > >Good luck. > >Jerry > The only thing I can say about the PDP-11/34 is that it is MUCH heavier than a corresponding Qbus system. I have a number of Qbus systems, mostly in either a BA23 box or a BA123 box. It is quite reasonable for one strong individual to move a BA23 by themselves. It is possible, but DEFINITELY not advisable for that same strong person to move a BA123 by themselves. Normally, two strong individuals are needed to move a BA123 between two different levels that differ by more than a few inches. Moving a BA123 up or down a flight of stairs can usually be done quite easily with two strong individuals. Likewise, an RL01 / RL02 drive should be taken out of the rack. There is a locking mechanism which is sort of hidden unless you completely understand what to look for. Plus, you should remove any disk packs still in the drive and ALSO place the drive in the LOCK DOWN position prior to moving the drive to the truck or trailer. In addition, the rack which holds an RL01 / RL02 drive needs two strong individuals to move it to / from the truck or trailer. You can probably assume that you and the individual who has the PDP-11/34 are strong enough, but I suggest that you ask the fellow explicitly FIRST. As for an RL01 / RL02 drives, a single strong individual is usually able to move ONE drive by itself (I did so when I was much younger - I am 76 years old now and I doubt that I am still strong enough). I recommend holding the RL01 / RL02 drive by the back end since more of the weight is at the back. As for the tape drives, my experience is to also that you MIGHT be able to carry one drive by itself, but do NOT assume so. Some such tape drives are VERY heavy and two strong individuals are needed. As for the actual PDP-11/34 all by itself, I ONLY ever had one that I never even powered up and it was too heavy for me to move it by myself into or out of its rack. So be prepared to have a second strong individual around when you arrive home to help with unloading everything. Unfortunately, the expert advice to release an RL01 / RL02 drive from the rack and place it in the LOCK DOWN position is no longer in my memory. I managed to pass along to another individual all of my RL01 / RL02 drives a number of years ago since they were no longer being used. Anyone who does remember, PLEASE add this information to my reply. Some bolts need to be removed to release an RL01 / RL02 drive and they are not normally visible - the slide MUST be in a certain position. And I can't remember anything about the LOCK DOWN procedure. Overall, your plan to move seems very reasonable. The only thing to add is to make sure that a fast (emergency?) stop does not shift the load. My driving advice is to keep double or triple the usual distance in front of you when driving so there are no sudden stops. Maybe a sign on the back of the trailer (HEAVY LOAD) might help??????? Drive as slowly as possible without holding up traffic too much. Jerome Fine From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jul 2 07:48:00 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 08:48:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear Message-ID: <20150702124800.26A1518C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: devin davison > any precautions I can take to make sure this all gets back in one > piece? Especially in relation to the RL drives Other people have covered most of this; my additional advice is to download the RL01/RL02 manual, and read it thoroughly. It covers the process on how to open an un-powered RL0x drive (it's not obvious/trivial), and how to lock the heads for moving the drive. > From: Jerome H. Fine > make sure that a fast (emergency?) stop does not shift the load. True; stack all the stuff along the front wall of the truck enclosure, and use shipping straps, etc, liberally. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 08:31:29 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 09:31:29 -0400 Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear In-Reply-To: <20150702124800.26A1518C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150702124800.26A1518C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Having recently moved an 11/34 rack, I agree with Noel. Don't scrimp on the straps to hold it in place, be sure that the racks can't slide forward. On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 8:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: devin davison > > > any precautions I can take to make sure this all gets back in one > > piece? Especially in relation to the RL drives > > Other people have covered most of this; my additional advice is to download > the RL01/RL02 manual, and read it thoroughly. It covers the process on how > to > open an un-powered RL0x drive (it's not obvious/trivial), and how to lock > the > heads for moving the drive. > > > From: Jerome H. Fine > > > make sure that a fast (emergency?) stop does not shift the load. > > True; stack all the stuff along the front wall of the truck enclosure, and > use shipping straps, etc, liberally. > > Noel > From jsw at ieee.org Thu Jul 2 08:33:13 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 08:33:13 -0500 Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear In-Reply-To: <20150702124800.26A1518C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150702124800.26A1518C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jul 2, 2015, at 7:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: devin davison > >> any precautions I can take to make sure this all gets back in one >> piece? Especially in relation to the RL drives > > Other people have covered most of this; my additional advice is to download > the RL01/RL02 manual, and read it thoroughly. It covers the process on how to > open an un-powered RL0x drive (it's not obvious/trivial), and how to lock the > heads for moving the drive. > >> From: Jerome H. Fine > >> make sure that a fast (emergency?) stop does not shift the load. > > True; stack all the stuff along the front wall of the truck enclosure, and > use shipping straps, etc, liberally. > > Noel EK-RL012-UG-004_RL01_RL02_Disk_Subsystem_Users_Guide_Oct80.pdf has illustrations and instructions on how to unlock the head positioner. EK-TSV05-IN-001_TSV05_Installation_Guide_Sep82.pdf shows how a TS05 tape drive may be access to pad the motors and other bits (if that is what you have). If you leave the large bits in the rack, don?t trust the normal slide latches to secure them. I would separately bolt the 11/34 and RL drives chassis to the rack (from the back) or place a retaining straps around things to minimize vibration or chance the unit will start to slide. From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 08:47:38 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 15:47:38 +0200 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> Message-ID: 2015-07-02 7:31 GMT+02:00 tony duell : > Not all minis came from the States :-) > That's right. There were one odd swedish mini as well. Datasaab manufactured a line of minis called D5 in the early seventies. The D5/10, D5/20 and D5/30. 16 bits. They were used among others in banks for controlling terminals. The D5/20 apparently had 64 by 24 bit microcode, used serial arithmetic and the memory cycle was 1.33 us http://www.datasaab.se/Aktuellt/IT_ceum/D520_FUB.pdf (in Swedish) http://www.datasaab.se/Bildarkiv/D530/d530_eng.htm http://www.datasaab.se/Bildarkiv/NTP/ntp_eng.htm > > One of my favourite non-mainstream families is the Philips P800 series. > It's > a 16 bit machine with 16 registers (0 is the program counter and 15 > is the stack pointer, rest are mostly general purpose) and separate > I/O instructions (not memory-mapped I/O). There were several models > with various implementations of the architecture, including > > P850 (TTL, hardwired not microcoded) > > P855, P852, P856, P857, P860 (TTL, microcoded) > > P851 (Custom bitslice ICs, microcoded) > > P854 (AM2900 bitslice, microcoded) > > P853 I think (Single chip) > > No, I don't have all of those... > > -tony > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jul 2 09:02:14 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 10:02:14 -0400 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <8650983B-BDCD-422E-88DE-B9297E41DA15@comcast.net> > On Jul 2, 2015, at 1:31 AM, tony duell wrote: > > Not all minis came from the States :-) > > One of my favourite non-mainstream families is the Philips P800 series. It's > a 16 bit machine with 16 registers (0 is the program counter and 15 > is the stack pointer, rest are mostly general purpose) and separate > I/O instructions (not memory-mapped I/O). Another Philips machine, probably still more obscure, is the PR8000. I?ve been looking for documentation about it, with no luck whatsoever. I wrote up a partial description, from memory and from looking at some old listings. It?s a 24 bit machine, with 8 sets of 8 registers (memory mapped like the PDP-10). For each interrupt level there?s a set of registers, so at interrupt time no register saving is needed. Neat. paul From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 09:21:52 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:21:52 +0200 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: <8650983B-BDCD-422E-88DE-B9297E41DA15@comcast.net> References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> <8650983B-BDCD-422E-88DE-B9297E41DA15@comcast.net> Message-ID: 2015-07-02 16:02 GMT+02:00 Paul Koning : > > > On Jul 2, 2015, at 1:31 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > > Not all minis came from the States :-) > > > > One of my favourite non-mainstream families is the Philips P800 series. > It's > > a 16 bit machine with 16 registers (0 is the program counter and 15 > > is the stack pointer, rest are mostly general purpose) and separate > > I/O instructions (not memory-mapped I/O). > > Another Philips machine, probably still more obscure, is the PR8000. I?ve > been looking for documentation about it, with no luck whatsoever. I wrote > up a partial description, from memory and from looking at some old > listings. It?s a 24 bit machine, with 8 sets of 8 registers (memory mapped > like the PDP-10). For each interrupt level there?s a set of registers, so > at interrupt time no register saving is needed. Neat. > That remind me of the the Norsk Data ND-10 (Maybe the ND-1 and ND-100 is the same in this aspect) which is a 16 bit machine with 16 different interrupt levels. Each interrupt level has its own set of registers. On top of that it also have a memory protection scheme with four different protection levels. Nord-10/S front panel: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/Nord10.png /Mattis > > paul > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 2 09:36:27 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 14:36:27 +0000 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> , <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> , Message-ID: > I share your favourite(s). In the danish IT-museum-to-be (www.datamuseum.dk) we have two > P857-based systems running. We have lots of spare parts and nearly all documentation, so > if you need something, you are welcome to ask. Unfortunately I don't own anything in that series :-(. What I have is : P850 in the 6U rack box. I have the CPU technical manual and user manuals for it. P851 in card cage with quite a bit of I/O and twin 8" floppies. I have the user manual, CPU and I/O technical manuals and manuals for the floppy drive unit, including the CDC manual for the drives themselves P854 in cardcage with floppy drives and hard disk controller. Alas the X1215 hard disk was scrapped before I got it. I have a preliminary CPU technical manual, and of course I/O boards are the same as the P851 ones. Quite a few spare boards including complete P851 and P854 CPU board sets, I/O, RAM, extender board, prototyping boards (some have been used, I think I even have a brand new one), a single-chip P800 CPU, and so on. The manuals I am looking for (some hope!) are : The full P854 CPU technical manual (the one I have does not include the microcode source, that is 'to be supplied'). Information on the hard disk controller for the X1215 in the P854 chassis. This is one eurocard with an 8X305 or something on it. I have some handwritten notes + a block diagram nothing more. P850 Core memory module technical manual P850/855 series I/O board technical manuals. It is possible I could get the manuals I have scanned if there is any serious interest -tony P850 I/O board technical manuals From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 2 10:06:30 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 08:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear In-Reply-To: References: <20150702124800.26A1518C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Put everything delicate and heavy in the truck, and put lighter, bulkier, less delicate stuff in the trailer. Are you using a trailer with shocks? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 2 10:08:04 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 15:08:04 +0000 Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Ive been trying to get a pdp 11 for quite a few years now, I recently found > someone selling a 11/34 with related gear in a couple of racks Here in my > state of florida. I jumped at the chance and bought it, i have not found > anything for sale this close to me before, yet alone in my state. The 11/34 is a pretty good 'starter' Unibus PDP11 IMHO. It has memory management and 18 bit addressing (so a maximum of 124kW of RAM [1]). But it is simple enough to be able to understand and repair easily. [1] A PDP11 address addresses a byte in memory. So 18 address lines gives an address space of 256k bytes or 128k words. But the top 4k words are reserved for I/O devices, boot ROMs, etc. So 124k words of RAM. Of course it is a 16 bit machine and will read or write 2 bytes in one go in case you are worries. > The plan is to go get it all later this week. It is a 11/34 in a rack with > a bunch of related Rl drives and a couple of big reel to reel tape drives. > Not sure the specifics anymore, after I paid him he took down the ad, and i > did not write down the details. What I want to ask is is there anything i > should look out for, any precautions I can take to make sure this all gets > back in one piece? Especially in relation to the RL drives, ive never dealt > with any of this equipment before and am not sure what to expect. Things to take with you : A good hand tool kit. You will need assorted flat blade screwdrivers, #1 and #2 Phillips. A set of inch-size nutdrivers and allen keys is very useful too. And a pair of sidecutters ('DIkes'). You do not cut cables, of course, but you may need to cut cable ties. A notebook and pen. And a digital camera if you have one and if the seller doesn't mind you taking photos (if you are getting it from a company they may, quite reasonably, prohibit any photography in their buildings). Even if you take photos before dispmantling, you should still make notes as to where cables go, in case it is not clear. Tie-on labels. You may want to tag cables when you disconnect them. Boxes for screws, cable clips, cables, etc. You will have loose parts. A friend. The RL's and 11/34 CPU are not hard for 2 people to lift and carry. But I wouldn't want to do it on my own. RL's maybe, but if I had to move an 11/34 single-handed, I would take the PSU off first which is more work. Then you need to disconnect things. You will find the AC mains cables from everything are plugged into a 'power controller' box at the back side of the rack (normally). This will have 2 classes of socket outlets, 'switched' and 'unswitched'. The CPU normally plugs into an unswitched one, everything else into switched. But check and make notes. Then unplug the lot and free the cables from any clips or ties so they are all loose. Still on the power controller you will see a little 3 wire cable. Unplug it. The other end goes to a similar socket on the back of the CPU. Unplug that end too. If the cable is free, remove it, and store it On the RL drives there are 2 connectors one above the other on the back. The plugs have a little quarter-turn locking peg at the end the cable doesn't come out of. Turn that counterclockwise to free them. And unscrew the P clips that hold the cables to the drive. You should have a terminator (looks like a plug with no cable) in the last drive, then cables between the drives, and a cable back to the CPU. This might go to a bulkhead bracket screwed to the rack. Unplug it there in the same way. Now for the RLs themselves. You _MUST_ make sure there are no disks in them, which means opening them up. The problem is that there are interlocks which mean they will only open if powered up and connected to a working controller. Not a good idea at this point. Pull them out of the rack one at a time. They will come part way out, Now look at the sliders, you will see a little rocking lever on them. Frob this and the drive comes even further out revealing the top rear cover held on by 4 screws. Undo these, lift the cover, unhook it from the rear edge of the top door, then lift the front edge first so that it hinges on the cables, and hang it on the back of the drive. Now lift the rear edge of the door slightly, slide the catch and lift the door right off. There are a couple of spring loaded arms that will snap over and scare you, but nothing to worry about. Look inside the drive. If you see a disk pack (white thing) inside, go very carefully. Lift up the read/write module (middle of the rear section of the drive) and check the heads are fully retracted. If not, they may be toast anyway, but carefully move them back (this is a darn bad thing to do to disk and heads, but since the heads have already hit the disk, it's not going to do any more damage!) Then remove the disk pack as described in the manual. Now, there is a locking clamp for the RL head and it's shown in the manual. You can move it to the locked position before puttiing the covers back, but my experience is that if you transport them back end downwards the heads will not move. So if you can't figure out the clamp, do that. Put the covers back on the RLs Now look at the slides again. You will see one clearly visible screw holding the slide to the drive. Remove it. Then press in the leaf springs that are preventing the drive from going back in the rack, and slide it back until another screw is visible through the hole in the slide. Take that out too. With all the screws out pull the drive fully out again and lift the catch on the bracket on top of the slide (on the drive unit). Slide the drive a little further forwards and lift it off the slides. Stand in on its back. Push the slides back in and if possible tape them so they don't slide out at the wrong moment and hit your shins... Now for the CPU. Again pull it all the way out of the rack. Loosen the screw each side of the top cover (on the side of the CPU box) and slide the cover to free it. Lift it off. There is a cable clamp strip at the back on top of the PSU held down by 3 screws. Remove it to free the cables and either store it or put it back under the cables for the moment. Now, for each cable you have a choice. If it's free you may want to leave it and move the CPU with it dangling off . If you don't, or if it's fixed to something else, remove the PCB that it connects to, make a note of how it is connected (which connector, which way up, etc) and unplug it. Put the PCB back in the right slot. With all the ccables removed, put the top cover back on the CPU to protect it, and then press the buttons on the sliders. With a friend helping, pull the CPU right out of the rack and put it down. If there are any Unibus expansion boxes then most likely they will be like the CPU, Deal with them in the same way. I can't comment on the tape units as I don't know what you have. -tony From scaron at umich.edu Thu Jul 2 10:07:57 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 11:07:57 -0400 Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear In-Reply-To: References: <20150702124800.26A1518C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I think there's a lot of good advice here ... as others have discussed, the greatest consideration for you will likely be the weight and dimensions ... the 11/34a is a "4-6U" machine but it is much heavier than any 4U machine you will see nowadays, and the weight is not evenly distributed in the chassis; it's mostly in the rear with the big transformers and capacitors in the power supplies ... if I had to guess from dragging and carting mine around, it's probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 150-200 lbs with a full-ish board complement ... I can drag it and lift one side or the other, but I can't really pick up the entire system by myself ... I don't have any RLs but I suspect they are similar in form factor to the CDC Hawk fixed+removable drives that I have seen and helped someone move; again; these are at least "4U", "full-depth" devices that can each weigh a few hundred pounds ... A lot of these older drives can have head locks for shipping; if applicable; make sure that the heads are parked and locked and I believe you'll want to ensure there is no pack in the drive while it's being shipped. Last summer, I did my largest ever equipment move which included a ROLM CBX and two Harris D1200 PBXes. The ROLM was ~1 ton and probably the size of two and a half DEC "low boy" racks conjoined; the Harris switches were in more standard 19" ~42U racks but components were placed with a ridiculously high CG ... maybe a half ton each ... Here's what I learned: 1. You will wish you could just pull up to a loading dock; you had a liftgate truck or that the seller has a forklift on their end. Regardless of how "low floor" the truck is, and depending on where the center of gravity of the racks you are trying to load is, wheeling fully loaded racks up a U-haul ramp can be very challenging ... The guy getting rid of the switch and I just barely got the ROLM pushed up the ramp into the truck ... we were sweating it pretty hard ... and he was a fairly experienced mover of heavy gear and knew some special moving tricks ... I don't think we could have done it without his knowledge (without two or three more guys to help push, at least). The guy with the Harris D1200s had a forklift on his end and it was awesome! We got those two things in the back of the truck in no time flat. Just lift em up and pull em in the back! Try to conscript at least one ... two or three would be better ... friend(s) ... to come along and help move, also taking into account the abilities of the guy at the other end to be willing and/or able to help you out ... thank goodness the guys I was working with were both, and it saved my butt ... Do bring a few very stout wood blocks (i.e. chunks of 4x4) to chock the rack mid-way up the ramp while you figure out what to do next, catch your breath, regain your footing, etc :O Bring any moving tools you might have that could help; a small winch, dollies, come-alongs, bottle jack, plenty of strong rope, etc. Consider ahead of time what you might do in the worst case; what if the wheels of the rack, don't fit within the footprint of the ramp? What if the rack gets hung up on the "lips" on the sides of the ramp while you're trying to push it up? 2. You can ease loading if you can break down the racks a little bit ... but that takes time and a place to work, which the seller may not have quite so much of at the moment you stop by to pick up; as well, for this to be an option, you'll have to plan ahead to bring appropriate tools and some mechanism for documenting equipment positions, cable connections and so on ... digital camera and a pen and paper will be a big help if you decide to do this ... it can be worth it to plan ahead and pack a little bag to carry in the cab of the truck with some basic electronics tools (N-in-one screwdriver, a few pairs of pliers, dikes, maybe a small socket set; a Sharpie), your digital camera, pad and paper if you do start to have to get into disassembly to get the gear loaded. 3. I don't think it matters if you load from the front back, or load on the sides; when I did my move; I had loose vintage computing equipment piled up at the front of the truck, the ROLM was strapped to the left side of the box and the two Harris switches were strapped to the right side of the box; I piled up boxes of documentation binders and 25/50-pair cable coils in the middle of the truck and between the bolus of stuff up front to "pad it out"; IMO, the important thing is more that you position the racks where you can get at least three or four ratcheting tie-downs around each rack to points on the truck box; top bottom and middle; the more tie-downs the better, and wind them up tight! You will not believe how much this stuff can jump around in the back of a cheap U-haul with blown-out suspension when you're winging it at 70 mph down the highway ... anything on slides, or racks with doors, if you can lock them into position; do that; a few rolls of strong packing tape can also help hold things in place, especially rack doors where the lock keys have been lost ... When loaded, drive slow and easy as you can ... leave LOTS of space between the vehicle in front of you and take it easy on the turns! You don't want to slam on the brakes ... that one ton rack behind you has a lot of kinetic energy ... this leads me to ... 4. Be very mindful of delicate and hard-to-replace cables, especially, but also smaller ancillary items (i.e. terminals/CRTs, disk packs, tapes, spare boards, workstations, whatever) to position them where, if the racks do start moving around, the smaller items are protected from crush and slice damage ... the edges of the rack and the floor and sides of the truck form a very effective shear or brake when brought together with great force... I had the ROLM jump around on me a little bit in transit and it took out a Sun monitor positioned nearby in the back of the truck! Maybe carry some of the smaller, most fragile stuff up in the cab :O It can help to bring a little "dunnage" in the form of some old cardboard boxes, bubble wrap, styrofoam chunks, whatever if you've got some of that laying around from recent eBay purchases or something (I like to keep this stuff and re-use it). 5. Bring lots of money for gas! Once you get a few tons in the back of that truck, you will literally get 5 MPG or less ... :( 6. Unloading... don't let your extra manpower go until you've got the gear off the truck! Unloading is a little easier than loading thanks to gravity but the more people you've got on deck, the more controlled a fashion you can get the racks off the truck. Consider dimensions ... I was just unloading to my detached garage so no biggie for me ... or if you have a walk-in basement ... but you may find some trouble fitting this stuff through a standard residential door; if this is the case, it's nice to have somewhere to keep the gear out of the elements while you break it down into smaller chunks that you can "digest". There are plenty of experienced guys here who have probably moved much larger loads than I; once you're through with this thread, I think you'll be in pretty good shape :O These little "expeditions" can be hard work but also quite exciting and great fun. Best, Sean On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > > > > On Jul 2, 2015, at 7:48 AM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > > > >> From: devin davison > > > >> any precautions I can take to make sure this all gets back in one > >> piece? Especially in relation to the RL drives > > > > Other people have covered most of this; my additional advice is to > download > > the RL01/RL02 manual, and read it thoroughly. It covers the process on > how to > > open an un-powered RL0x drive (it's not obvious/trivial), and how to > lock the > > heads for moving the drive. > > > >> From: Jerome H. Fine > > > >> make sure that a fast (emergency?) stop does not shift the load. > > > > True; stack all the stuff along the front wall of the truck enclosure, > and > > use shipping straps, etc, liberally. > > > > Noel > > > EK-RL012-UG-004_RL01_RL02_Disk_Subsystem_Users_Guide_Oct80.pdf > has illustrations and instructions on how to unlock the head positioner. > > EK-TSV05-IN-001_TSV05_Installation_Guide_Sep82.pdf shows how a TS05 > tape drive may be access to pad the motors and other bits (if that is what > you have). > > If you leave the large bits in the rack, don?t trust the normal slide > latches to > secure them. I would separately bolt the 11/34 and RL drives chassis > to the rack (from the back) or place a retaining straps around things to > minimize vibration or chance the unit will start to slide. > > > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Jul 2 13:25:31 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 11:25:31 -0700 Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you don't already understand how to 1) open up an unpowered RL, and 2) how to engage the travel lock, I could make a quick YouTube video tomorrow (Friday). Let me know if this is needed. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jul 2 14:16:12 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 15:16:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear Message-ID: <20150702191612.3C3AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Sean Caron > I think there's a lot of good advice here Lots of good advice here; any chance we can capture it (and the rest in this thread) in a Wiki page? (Hint, hint... :-) Noel From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Thu Jul 2 12:28:58 2015 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 19:28:58 +0200 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> , <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> , Message-ID: <559574DA.4050600@bluewin.ch> On 02.07.2015 16:36, tony duell wrote: > >> I share your favourite(s). In the danish IT-museum-to-be (www.datamuseum.dk) we have two >> P857-based systems running. We have lots of spare parts and nearly all documentation, so >> if you need something, you are welcome to ask. > > Unfortunately I don't own anything in that series :-(. What I have is : 20 years ago I had to scrap 5-6 P856, just did not have the room, was no interest. Blinkenlights and core memory and all...( did save some core boards ) Times have changed ! Jos From jonas at otter.se Thu Jul 2 14:59:34 2015 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 21:59:34 +0200 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <55959826.7090207@otter.se> On 2015-07-02 15:47, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2015-07-02 7:31 GMT+02:00 tony duell : > >> Not all minis came from the States :-) >> > That's right. There were one odd swedish mini as well. > > Datasaab manufactured a line of minis called D5 in the early seventies. The > D5/10, D5/20 and D5/30. 16 bits. > They were used among others in banks for controlling terminals. > The D5/20 apparently had 64 by 24 bit microcode, used serial arithmetic and > the memory cycle was 1.33 us > http://www.datasaab.se/Aktuellt/IT_ceum/D520_FUB.pdf (in Swedish) > > http://www.datasaab.se/Bildarkiv/D530/d530_eng.htm > http://www.datasaab.se/Bildarkiv/NTP/ntp_eng.htm > There is also the Swedish Ericsson UAC1610 and its successor the APN586, 16-bit computers used in telephone exchanges, management systems for telephone exchanges and also in railway interlockings. There are about 140 of these interlockings in use in Sweden at the moment; due to problems with obtaining some components the manufacturer does not provide spare parts any longer so they are being replaced over a period of some 20 years or so. I have tried to find documentation on the Internet but it seems extremely hard to find, if it exists at all outside of the manufacturer. /Jonas From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jul 2 16:13:56 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:13:56 -0500 Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear In-Reply-To: <20150702191612.3C3AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150702191612.3C3AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20150702211356.GH12235@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (07/02/2015 at 03:16PM -0400), Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Sean Caron > > > I think there's a lot of good advice here > > Lots of good advice here; any chance we can capture it (and the rest in this > thread) in a Wiki page? (Hint, hint... :-) A tiny bit more advice, Don't forget or loose the "third foot" that is at the bottom middle of the rack and slides out toward the front to keep the rack from tipping over once you have the 11/34 racked and slide it out to work on it. The machine is plenty heavy enough to tip over even a rack that has two RLs also installed in it. It's an important safety feature. I found the 11/34A too heavy to lift into position in my rack above the one RL at the bottom by myself so I used "cribbing" to raise it a little bit at a time. I used 3' lengths of 2x2 pine, a large pile of them, and lifted each side, front and back of the machine 2" at a time and slid one 2x2 in each time I lifted it. I kept lifting a little and raising until the machine was almost exactly aligned with the rack slides in the middle (of my "corporate rack") and then I slid the rack up to the machine rather than other way around. Worked like a charm and I never had to lift that bad boy more than about 2". I like being self-sufficient and not having to bug people when I want to play with this gear so this was the poor man's option over purchasing an engine hoist or a lot of steroids. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 16:39:36 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 17:39:36 -0400 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> Message-ID: There are interesting and obscure machines from the most mainstream manufacturers. Take the IBM System/7. Successor to the 1800, succeeded by the Series/1. They were *ubiquitous* - one in every telephone exchange in the USA, I've heard. They even made a special ruggedised version for shipboard use. Yet they're functionally *extinct*. Henk Stegeman in the Netherlands has most of one, but is missing a crucial board (ALU IIRC). I had a front panel, which I donated to Henk, and an OS disk. I retain one of the special IBM-branded ASR33 Teletypes that were sometimes used with them, plus a couple of manuals and sales brochures, And that's *it*. Unless anyone knows different, no complete systems exist. They're extinct, and that's a scandal and a shame. Mike On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Jul-01, at 2:26 PM, Matt Patoray wrote: >> On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 5:21 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: >>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 06:54:51PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> Something I could wish to find/stumble-across would be one of the >>>> out-of-the-mainstream minis from the 60s/70s - something not DEC, >>>> not HP, not IBM, not DG (although a little Nova would be nice). >>> >>> I had to suffer through building something on a Computer Automation >>> mini back in the, well, never you mind when it was. (The misery was >>> not the mini's fault). So I would take one of those if it came >>> available. >>> >>> Still hoping for an 11/20, of course. > >> Varian made interesting mini computers with a very cool front panel. >> >> I think RCA at one time also made smaller computers along with the >> Spectra/70 mainframe series. > > It's always surprising how much variety there was in the mini market of that era. > Even when you take out what might be called the 2nd tier of manufacturers such as Microdata, Prime and so on, there was still a plethora of also-rans. > > I find it an interesting era: once ICs were readily available and easy to design with (mainly TTL), everyone and their dog decided they would take a stab at building and marketing a CPU. I was a kid in that era so wasn't on the inside, but my offhand interpretation is that while some of them may have been successful in niche areas such as instrumentation, in the main they got shook out when the reality of maintaining, marketing and evolving a system architecture hit. But, that's an historical progression common to many/most new technologies - > same thing happened in the microprocessor market a few years a later. > > A Varian has been sitting on ebay for sometime now .. sitting, because the price is silly: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-VARIAN-DATA-MACHINES-620-L-100-COMPUTER-/220737926675?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3365017613 > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jul 2 17:05:03 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 17:05:03 -0500 Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear In-Reply-To: <20150702191612.3C3AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150702191612.3C3AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <003801d0b513$2698f970$73caec50$@classiccmp.org> Hence the reason I asked on-list for a web developer. One response thus far.... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 2:16 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear > From: Sean Caron > I think there's a lot of good advice here Lots of good advice here; any chance we can capture it (and the rest in this thread) in a Wiki page? (Hint, hint... :-) Noel From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 17:21:00 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 19:21:00 -0300 Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear References: <20150702191612.3C3AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <003801d0b513$2698f970$73caec50$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I'd love to help! But look how my web skills are sharp! :o) www.tabalabs.com.br (Thanks for the host, Jay! :D) --- Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 7:05 PM Subject: RE: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear > Hence the reason I asked on-list for a web developer. One response thus > far.... > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 2:16 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear > > > From: Sean Caron > > > I think there's a lot of good advice here > > Lots of good advice here; any chance we can capture it (and the rest in > this > thread) in a Wiki page? (Hint, hint... :-) > > Noel > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Jul 2 17:26:35 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2015 10:26:35 +1200 Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY source of web content? Message-ID: Hi, I'm engaged in a Retrochallenge project where I'm recoding my classic-computers.org.nz site to make it suitable for mobile platforms. I want to modernise the code as well, making it as close to HTML5 standard as I can The RetroChallenge blog site is here. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-06-29-recoding-classic-computers.org.nz.htm . In doing this, I will probably need to say goodbye to old browser compatibility. As in old I mean Netscape 4 or earlier, and other pre-2000 browsers (and possibly IE 6, as it's not very standard). The website does have a few articles and resources of interest to vintage computer hobbyists, which I wouldn't want to make inaccessible. The question is, how many guys like us, those who dabble with old tech, are likely to use ancient browsers as their ONLY source of web content. I suspect not many. Should I worry about it? Any comments welcome. On a related note, I'd be interested if anyone on the list CAN'T read this page properly: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/temp.html It's a new blog page template I've developed using HTML5 and is mobile friendly. If it doesn't show up properly I'll be interested to know what browser you're using. Please be kind about the HTML5 and CCS code. I don't do this for a job, and it's a big learning curve for me. P.S. Here are some interesting stats. For myself, I've been a Chrome user for a number of years now. http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp Terry (Tez) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 2 18:24:28 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 16:24:28 -0700 Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY source of web content? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5595C82C.2040200@sydex.com> On 07/02/2015 03:26 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Hi, > > I'm engaged in a Retrochallenge project where I'm recoding my > classic-computers.org.nz site to make it suitable for mobile platforms. I > want to modernise the code as well, making it as close to HTML5 standard as > I can > > The RetroChallenge blog site is here. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-06-29-recoding-classic-computers.org.nz.htm > . > > In doing this, I will probably need to say goodbye to old browser > compatibility. As in old I mean Netscape 4 or earlier, and other pre-2000 > browsers (and possibly IE 6, as it's not very standard). I've got a couple systems with IE 6.1, but generally I go for Opera 10.64 or thereabouts. Still very useful and not very demanding on system resources. I'll let you know about your web page later. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 19:14:19 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 20:14:19 -0400 Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY source of web content? In-Reply-To: <5595C82C.2040200@sydex.com> References: <5595C82C.2040200@sydex.com> Message-ID: I have been using Mosaic on my OpenVMS system, almost unusable, but fun. It's more important in this day and age to keep up with the web publishing standards than maintain backward compatibility. Google penalizes sites that are not mobile friendly in their rankings. If you can't be found, what's the point? On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 7:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 07/02/2015 03:26 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm engaged in a Retrochallenge project where I'm recoding my >> classic-computers.org.nz site to make it suitable for mobile platforms. >> I >> want to modernise the code as well, making it as close to HTML5 standard >> as >> I can >> >> The RetroChallenge blog site is here. >> >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-06-29-recoding-classic-computers.org.nz.htm >> . >> >> In doing this, I will probably need to say goodbye to old browser >> compatibility. As in old I mean Netscape 4 or earlier, and other pre-2000 >> browsers (and possibly IE 6, as it's not very standard). >> > > I've got a couple systems with IE 6.1, but generally I go for Opera 10.64 > or thereabouts. Still very useful and not very demanding on system > resources. > > I'll let you know about your web page later. > > --Chuck > > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jul 2 19:20:57 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 20:20:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY source of web content? In-Reply-To: <5595C82C.2040200@sydex.com> References: <5595C82C.2040200@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201507030020.UAA21323@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Subject: Re: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their > ONLY source of web content? I didn't see the original of this, probably (based on the headers) because it was sent through gmail. But, assuming the Subject: is an accurate guide to the content, I may qualify. My use of the Web falls into four categories: (1) At work, for work purposes, on work-owned and work-administered machines. This is minimal and done when the job in question has some internal tool that desn't provide any saner interface. (2) Over others' shoulders, as it were; for example, I have had people hand me palmtop comput...umm, "smart phones", displaying something I suspect was obtained as a Web page. (3) Scripted fetching of, eg, webcomic image files. (There are a handful of webcomics which I find worthwhile enough to bother setting up such scripted fetches for.) (4) lynx. So far, I haven't run into anything that I care enough about to provoke me to bother finding/building anything more elaborate than lynx for my own use. Does lynx count as "=< Netscape 4 or IE 6"? Is my sample size of one relevant for your purposes? Only you can say. :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Jul 2 19:44:40 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 20:44:40 -0400 Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY sour... Message-ID: <7bf7f.65668e62.42c734f8@aol.com> wasn't lynx before even Internet explorer 1.0? Heck if you have retro computer site make it look as old fashioned as you can then it is retro... then if people don't like it... well... you know the rest lynx might be too primitive... no screen graphics on page as you scroll make the retro site early graphical with nasty looking fonts... lots of 'under Construction signs some nasty lo res motion gifs Ed _www.amecc.org_ (http://www.amecc.org) In a message dated 7/2/2015 5:21:03 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG writes: > Subject: Re: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their > ONLY source of web content? I didn't see the original of this, probably (based on the headers) because it was sent through gmail. But, assuming the Subject: is an accurate guide to the content, I may qualify. My use of the Web falls into four categories: (1) At work, for work purposes, on work-owned and work-administered machines. This is minimal and done when the job in question has some internal tool that desn't provide any saner interface. (2) Over others' shoulders, as it were; for example, I have had people hand me palmtop comput...umm, "smart phones", displaying something I suspect was obtained as a Web page. (3) Scripted fetching of, eg, webcomic image files. (There are a handful of webcomics which I find worthwhile enough to bother setting up such scripted fetches for.) (4) lynx. So far, I haven't run into anything that I care enough about to provoke me to bother finding/building anything more elaborate than lynx for my own use. Does lynx count as "=< Netscape 4 or IE 6"? Is my sample size of one relevant for your purposes? Only you can say. :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Jul 2 19:50:25 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 20:50:25 -0400 Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY sour... Message-ID: <7c15b.45484409.42c73651@aol.com> the fun think about the old lunx browser is you could run it on a pc 8088 old system! I have a pc speed little laptop and used the lynx in on the road applications we had a free net here in phx and many people used it for ages... it was fun to use old machine with lynx but if I wanted to really work though out came IE explorer or netscape get the fastest machine I could get and a t1 LINE OR EVENTUALLY MY OWN CABLE AND DSL CONNECTION. Ed# In a message dated 7/2/2015 5:14:33 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, billdegnan at gmail.com writes: I have been using Mosaic on my OpenVMS system, almost unusable, but fun. It's more important in this day and age to keep up with the web publishing standards than maintain backward compatibility. Google penalizes sites that are not mobile friendly in their rankings. If you can't be found, what's the point? On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 7:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 07/02/2015 03:26 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm engaged in a Retrochallenge project where I'm recoding my >> classic-computers.org.nz site to make it suitable for mobile platforms. >> I >> want to modernise the code as well, making it as close to HTML5 standard >> as >> I can >> >> The RetroChallenge blog site is here. >> >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-06-29-recoding-classic-computers.org.nz.htm >> . >> >> In doing this, I will probably need to say goodbye to old browser >> compatibility. As in old I mean Netscape 4 or earlier, and other pre-2000 >> browsers (and possibly IE 6, as it's not very standard). >> > > I've got a couple systems with IE 6.1, but generally I go for Opera 10.64 > or thereabouts. Still very useful and not very demanding on system > resources. > > I'll let you know about your web page later. > > --Chuck > > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jul 2 20:07:18 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 21:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY sour... In-Reply-To: <7c15b.45484409.42c73651@aol.com> References: <7c15b.45484409.42c73651@aol.com> Message-ID: <201507030107.VAA20016@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > It's more important in this day and age to keep up with the web > publishing standards than maintain backward compatibility. Depends on what you're aiming for. Not everyone cares about making the latest glitz available even to those who can display it. > Google penalizes sites that are not mobile friendly in their > rankings. If you can't be found, what's the point? Well, what's the point of putting something up on the Web at all? Speaking personally (as someone who exports a little stuff as Web pages and doesn't give a damn about Google's rankings), to make it available. I've mentioned it a few times (on mailing lists and in person) and a handful of people have been paying attention according to my logs; that's enough for me. Of course, if you've bought into the modern "the whole point of the Web is to get paid for ad clickthroughs" paradigm, then you're right, there is little point. (And, again speaking personally, anyone who feels that way I am not only willing but _happy_ to write off.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 2 21:01:33 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 19:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY sour... In-Reply-To: <7c15b.45484409.42c73651@aol.com> References: <7c15b.45484409.42c73651@aol.com> Message-ID: In a message dated 7/2/2015 5:14:33 P.M. MT, billdegnan at gmail.com writes: > I have been using Mosaic on my OpenVMS system, almost unusable, but fun. In what way is it "unusable"? > It's more important in this day and age to keep up with the web publishing > standards than maintain backward compatibility. Is FORM that much more important than CONTENT? WHY "keep up with the web publishing standards"??!? What does that mean? Just because somebody comes up with an even flashier way to have dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish present your message doesn't necessarily mean that anything previous is "UNACCEPTABLE". In most cases, maintaining backwards compatability merely means telling the "web development" software and/or staff to NOT flip the "exclude everything non-current" switch. 'Course most "web development" software from MICROS~1 prob'ly has default settings of "block access by any versions prior to this one". > Google penalizes sites that are not mobile friendly in their rankings. Yes, it surely is far more important that a site be easy to use on a telephone than its content! Format should follow readability guidelines for a first grade primer, with preferably no more than 6 lines of text on the screen at a time, with no more than 6 words of text per line. Or, if that's too insulting, follow the "Haiku rule of formatting" and don't exceed 17 syllables. (cf, "The Cognitive Style Of PowerPoint : Pitching Out Corrupts Within" by Edward R. Tufte) 30+ years ago, there were actually some serious studies analyzing correlations in writing styles with number of characters on the screen. Would Herman Melville have benefitted from the use of a word processor with a small screen? Does it really make sense that non-telephone software be prioritized by the ease of use of the website by a telephone? Certain software thay I've written will not run on a telephone; why should the websites providing information about it? I get an amazing amount of spam, even from Network Solutions (remember what THEIR role in internet used to be?), about the "necessity" of being ranked first. Much of which is presumably selling stuff to scam the Google ranking systems, such as by flooding the site with invisible high-value terms. > If you can't be found, what's the point? Is the only possible point to putting a document on the web being to attract strangers to a site? Is it ALL advertising? Is there "no point" to having a document available on the web for access by people who have been notified about its existence in any form other than Google search? Yeah, it is nice if people looking for your content can find it more easily, but what's with the over-emphasis on being found ahead of anybody else's content? If somebody is looking for me, or any of my projects, they are easy to find. Should I also rename myself "Aaaaaaa" just so I can be the first one in the phonebook? My websites tend to be "best viewed with Lynx 2.0", although I often use IE 8. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From useddec at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 21:15:04 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 21:15:04 -0500 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> Message-ID: Anyone ever heard of the IS1000? I can't remember if it was made by GE or GTE. On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 4:39 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > There are interesting and obscure machines from the most mainstream > manufacturers. > > Take the IBM System/7. Successor to the 1800, succeeded by the > Series/1. They were *ubiquitous* - one in every telephone exchange in > the USA, I've heard. They even made a special ruggedised version for > shipboard use. Yet they're functionally *extinct*. Henk Stegeman in > the Netherlands has most of one, but is missing a crucial board (ALU > IIRC). I had a front panel, which I donated to Henk, and an OS disk. I > retain one of the special IBM-branded ASR33 Teletypes that were > sometimes used with them, plus a couple of manuals and sales > brochures, And that's *it*. Unless anyone knows different, no complete > systems exist. They're extinct, and that's a scandal and a shame. > > Mike > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > On 2015-Jul-01, at 2:26 PM, Matt Patoray wrote: > >> On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 5:21 PM, Mark Linimon > wrote: > >>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 06:54:51PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >>>> Something I could wish to find/stumble-across would be one of the > >>>> out-of-the-mainstream minis from the 60s/70s - something not DEC, > >>>> not HP, not IBM, not DG (although a little Nova would be nice). > >>> > >>> I had to suffer through building something on a Computer Automation > >>> mini back in the, well, never you mind when it was. (The misery was > >>> not the mini's fault). So I would take one of those if it came > >>> available. > >>> > >>> Still hoping for an 11/20, of course. > > > >> Varian made interesting mini computers with a very cool front panel. > >> > >> I think RCA at one time also made smaller computers along with the > >> Spectra/70 mainframe series. > > > > It's always surprising how much variety there was in the mini market of > that era. > > Even when you take out what might be called the 2nd tier of > manufacturers such as Microdata, Prime and so on, there was still a > plethora of also-rans. > > > > I find it an interesting era: once ICs were readily available and easy > to design with (mainly TTL), everyone and their dog decided they would take > a stab at building and marketing a CPU. I was a kid in that era so wasn't > on the inside, but my offhand interpretation is that while some of them may > have been successful in niche areas such as instrumentation, in the main > they got shook out when the reality of maintaining, marketing and evolving > a system architecture hit. But, that's an historical progression common to > many/most new technologies - > > same thing happened in the microprocessor market a few years a later. > > > > A Varian has been sitting on ebay for sometime now .. sitting, because > the price is silly: > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-VARIAN-DATA-MACHINES-620-L-100-COMPUTER-/220737926675?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3365017613 > > > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Jul 2 22:10:33 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 22:10:33 -0500 Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY sour... In-Reply-To: References: <7c15b.45484409.42c73651@aol.com> Message-ID: <20150703031032.GA8745@lonesome.com> On Thu, Jul 02, 2015 at 07:01:33PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > My websites tend to be "best viewed with Lynx 2.0", although I often > use IE 8. > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Grumpy old man here as well, but if you want to use certain sites (example: price out a new Mazda vehicle, pay certain health insurance) they simply will not work without the interactive razzle-dazzle. We can moan if we want. And, yes, I have a copy of lynx installed on this very machine as a sanity-test of my own websites. FWIW, the last time I looked at BBC News with lynx (I had confused my laptop's X setup in a botched upgrade), man did it load fast :-) mcl From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jul 2 22:14:11 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 23:14:11 -0400 Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY sour... In-Reply-To: <20150703031032.GA8745@lonesome.com> References: <7c15b.45484409.42c73651@aol.com> <20150703031032.GA8745@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <5595FE03.6030209@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-07-02 11:10 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Thu, Jul 02, 2015 at 07:01:33PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: >> My websites tend to be "best viewed with Lynx 2.0", although I often >> use IE 8. >> >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > Grumpy old man here as well, but if you want to use certain sites > (example: price out a new Mazda vehicle, pay certain health insurance) > they simply will not work without the interactive razzle-dazzle. We > can moan if we want. And, yes, I have a copy of lynx installed on this > very machine as a sanity-test of my own websites. It's almost as if there should be laws around accessibility! --Toby > > FWIW, the last time I looked at BBC News with lynx (I had confused my > laptop's X setup in a botched upgrade), man did it load fast :-) > > mcl > From isking at uw.edu Thu Jul 2 22:27:36 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 20:27:36 -0700 Subject: Where to get a Vax or microvax In-Reply-To: References: <559193E1.6020401@update.uu.se> <55919C86.2060403@update.uu.se> <5591C10A.1070009@update.uu.se> <01PNT0FGBWD60084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <024001d0b447$7c05b190$741114b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: It's not just a matter of size, but also of maintenance. Tony says, I have the docs, I can maintain it - but do you want to chase down a logic defect among a gazillion small- and medium-scale integration ICs? And the bus connections? And the wire wrap? And the microcode? (I have done this.) After restoring the VAX-11/780-5 at the Living Computer Museum and running it for some time, we moved it to a new home. It took several days to get it running again, reseating board, ensuring that power connections were tight and secure - dealing with a creaky old machine that was, in truth, once a creaky new machine. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a VAX-11/780 to be a 'bookend' system next to my VAX 6000-660. I would love to win the lottery so I could afford the space, the power, and the time. But after I fantasize a bit about that, I go fire up a VAXstation, or my VAX 4000/300, or the SIMH session I have running on OpenBSD on a G4 iBook (because I can). Yes, start off small, and if the bug bites you, swing for the fences! IMHO, YMMV, MOUSE -- Ian On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:17 AM, devin davison wrote: > Ive got a large sgi altix 350 machine running here almost 24/7, uses quite > a bit of power. Rivals the 2 air conditioners on power consumption. Power > is not an issue, if i do get something bigger then ill just run the altix > less and power up the vax. New house has an air conditioned office in the > garage, now would be the best time to get something big i think, but if it > is not close it will have to be shipped which would be costly. Maybe ill > start off small... > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 22:31:59 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 23:31:59 -0400 Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY sour... In-Reply-To: <5595FE03.6030209@telegraphics.com.au> References: <7c15b.45484409.42c73651@aol.com> <20150703031032.GA8745@lonesome.com> <5595FE03.6030209@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: It is quite easy with html 5 and css3, the modern tools of the web designer, to detect when a lynx browser is being used to access the page and in response present a text version of the site. best of both worlds b On Jul 2, 2015 11:14 PM, "Toby Thain" wrote: > On 2015-07-02 11:10 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > >> On Thu, Jul 02, 2015 at 07:01:33PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> My websites tend to be "best viewed with Lynx 2.0", although I often >>> use IE 8. >>> >>> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com >>> >> >> Grumpy old man here as well, but if you want to use certain sites >> (example: price out a new Mazda vehicle, pay certain health insurance) >> they simply will not work without the interactive razzle-dazzle. We >> can moan if we want. And, yes, I have a copy of lynx installed on this >> very machine as a sanity-test of my own websites. >> > > It's almost as if there should be laws around accessibility! > > --Toby > > >> FWIW, the last time I looked at BBC News with lynx (I had confused my >> laptop's X setup in a botched upgrade), man did it load fast :-) >> >> mcl >> >> > From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 22:33:35 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 23:33:35 -0400 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 2 July 2015 at 17:39, Mike Ross wrote: > Take the IBM System/7. Successor to the 1800, succeeded by the > Series/1. They were *ubiquitous* - one in every telephone exchange in > the USA, I've heard. They even made a special ruggedised version for Being into telephony, I can say that I've not heard anything about IBM System/7 machines being used in exchanges. I do know that the WECo ESS exchanges did, of course, have computers. But the ESS exchange computers were custom systems and architectures built by Western Electric. The 1ESS/1AESS computer architecture is however, nearly completely extinct. There are, I believe, only two 1ESS/1AESS switches left. One is a partial, and non-functional exchange at the museum of communications in Seattle; the processor is complete, and it has one of each requisite switching frame, but it can't be used as they need to recompile the software that runs it (which isn't possible as they're lacking the crucial internal compiler that ran on WECo's IBM System/3x0 machines). The other 1ESS/1AESS switch is a complete and functional unit, still in service, last I heard. But there are plans to scrap it and put in a modern switch in its place. Saving it would be a difficult proposition, to say the least. Regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jul 2 22:34:06 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 23:34:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY sour... In-Reply-To: <20150703031032.GA8745@lonesome.com> References: <7c15b.45484409.42c73651@aol.com> <20150703031032.GA8745@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <201507030334.XAA29615@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Grumpy old man here as well, but if you want to use certain sites > (example: price out a new Mazda vehicle, pay certain health > insurance) they simply will not work without the interactive > razzle-dazzle. Yes. I consider that yet another reason (as if I needed one) to not use them. I push back hard against organizations that try to insist on my use of the Web; for the most part I simply have nothing to do with them. (As an example, I moved the pension fund money away from my (now-ex-)employer's pension fund, in large part because, based on the letters they sent me, they appeared to support no way other than the Web for me to have anything to do with them. Indeed, they had gone so far down that road that it was somewhat difficult for me to find a postal address to send the letter to.) > FWIW, the last time I looked at BBC News with lynx (I had confused my > laptop's X setup in a botched upgrade), man did it load fast :-) Even then, not as fast as it could have, I daresay. See my blah post of 2009-10-06, {ftp,http}://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/2009-10-06-1.html, for a rant about another website's mishandling such things. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 22:44:45 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 23:44:45 -0400 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> Message-ID: > Take the IBM System/7. Successor to the 1800, succeeded by the > Series/1. They were *ubiquitous* - one in every telephone exchange in > the USA, I've heard. They even made a special ruggedised version for > shipboard use. Yet they're functionally *extinct*...Unless anyone knows different, no complete > systems exist. They're extinct, and that's a scandal and a shame. There exist S/7s in museums in Finland and (I think) Japan. No doubt there are some still hidden away. As of 15 years ago, bigger MCI sites had System/88s. -- Will From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jul 2 22:48:50 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 23:48:50 -0400 Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY sour... In-Reply-To: References: <7c15b.45484409.42c73651@aol.com> <20150703031032.GA8745@lonesome.com> <5595FE03.6030209@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <55960622.5050007@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-07-02 11:31 PM, william degnan wrote: > It is quite easy with html 5 and css3, the modern tools of the web > designer, to detect when a lynx browser is being used to access the page > and in response present a text version of the site. > > best of both worlds Oh, I know it can be done. It's not a /technical/ problem :-) --T > > b > On Jul 2, 2015 11:14 PM, "Toby Thain" wrote: > >> On 2015-07-02 11:10 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Jul 02, 2015 at 07:01:33PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>>> My websites tend to be "best viewed with Lynx 2.0", although I often >>>> use IE 8. >>>> >>>> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com >>>> >>> >>> Grumpy old man here as well, but if you want to use certain sites >>> (example: price out a new Mazda vehicle, pay certain health insurance) >>> they simply will not work without the interactive razzle-dazzle. We >>> can moan if we want. And, yes, I have a copy of lynx installed on this >>> very machine as a sanity-test of my own websites. >>> >> >> It's almost as if there should be laws around accessibility! >> >> --Toby >> >> >>> FWIW, the last time I looked at BBC News with lynx (I had confused my >>> laptop's X setup in a botched upgrade), man did it load fast :-) >>> >>> mcl >>> >>> >> > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 22:50:18 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 23:50:18 -0400 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> Message-ID: > That's right. There were one odd swedish mini as well. The Japanese made quite a wide variety of minicomputers (and mainframes), but they remain fairly unknown in the collector mindset, despite their web presence. -- Will From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Jul 2 23:22:15 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2015 04:22:15 +0000 Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY source of web content? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <630A9D41-CF51-4012-8420-9AEEEC4C64B6@swri.edu> Terry, On Jul 2, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Hi, > > I'm engaged in a Retrochallenge project ?.The > question is, how many guys like us, those who dabble with old tech, are > likely to use ancient browsers as their ONLY source of web content. I > suspect not many. Should I worry about it? Any comments welcome. I routinely use: OmniWeb on NeXTStep 3.2. I won?t be back in front of my NeXT Cube to verify version number until late July, but it?s a reasonably early version :-) TenFourFox on Mac OS 10.4. Version 38 is Beta and I?ll be getting that as soon as I get back home to my PowerBook G4 and iMac G3. I can?t honestly say either is my primary platform. At the moment I?m using Safari 7.1.6. :-(. I?m not sure what to tell you about modernizing. I recognize the drive to stay ?in sync? with modern standards, but it really grinds my gears when a site that is mostly useful information gets a lot of glitz and glamor and goes inaccessible to the machines it was originally written for. There are (were) so many wonderful sites out there with tons of great text and just the few pictures that were really needed. Now it?s all dancing jellyfish and pop-up revenue sources, and I have trouble getting to the information even with modern browsers. I *love* the idea of actually being able to *use* the classic machines for as much as possible, and the functions of going out to a website, getting the text and picture content, and displaying it are well within what the NeXT and iMac (and several others I want to bring up; VAX/Alpha on VMS, etc. etc.) can do - if the websites will only serve content to the standards the old machines were written for. But when the standards evolve away, it needlessly turns really neat hardware into doorstops as far as that functionality goes. I don?t love that process. TenFourFox rocks particularly hard in this context, by the way, but ? I don?t know of a NeXT port. Of course it?s at least twice as much work for the website developer and I can?t really expect it, but I keep wishing developers could put out two (or more) versions of their sites, one suitablle for my (it was invented *here*, dad-gum-it) NeXT and one for my jellyfish-friendly cellphone (hey, is it updating its software again today :-P?). And, hopefully, my X.9 laptop will be able to read at least one of the two. The Dilbert Zone did this for a while - I read the simple version of the strip every day on the NeXT. They went to a more markteer-driven format, and I quit reading them because it quit loading on OmniWeb. Hm. I?m sounding a little like a grumpy old geezer ?. ah well, so be it. I do have to say this: whatever you decide, you are one of the good guys for two reasons; first you are making loads of great information available about these machines and second, you actually give a hoot about people using them, enough to at least ask! Thanks, and I promise not to back-bite whichever way you go. > On a related note, I'd be interested if anyone on the list CAN'T read this > page properly: > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/temp.html Loads fine on the MacBook on Safari 7.1.6 but leaves more empty space than I?m used to in the window, looks nice on the Moto X cellphone running Chrome on Android 4.4.4. Sigh, sure wish I wasn?t on travel and could give you feedback from OmniWeb and TenFourFox, will do that when I can but we probably both know the answer... - Mark From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jul 2 17:16:33 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 15:16:33 -0700 Subject: Solstice (or Solaris) Disk Suite 4.0 software Message-ID: <20150702151633.4cbded37@asrock.bcwi.net> I'm looking for a copy of Solstice (or Solaris) Disk Suite 4.0 software. A bounty is available... Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From scaron at umich.edu Thu Jul 2 19:01:54 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 20:01:54 -0400 Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY source of web content? In-Reply-To: <5595C82C.2040200@sydex.com> References: <5595C82C.2040200@sydex.com> Message-ID: Just a data point but I'll probably continue to maintain my personal page in HTML 3.2 as long as the technology will let me get away with it :O No need for all that fancy new-fangled stuff ... and it's nice to have at least one ready-made demo for browsing the Web on my older machines :O Best, Sean On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 7:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 07/02/2015 03:26 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm engaged in a Retrochallenge project where I'm recoding my >> classic-computers.org.nz site to make it suitable for mobile platforms. >> I >> want to modernise the code as well, making it as close to HTML5 standard >> as >> I can >> >> The RetroChallenge blog site is here. >> >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-06-29-recoding-classic-computers.org.nz.htm >> . >> >> In doing this, I will probably need to say goodbye to old browser >> compatibility. As in old I mean Netscape 4 or earlier, and other pre-2000 >> browsers (and possibly IE 6, as it's not very standard). >> > > I've got a couple systems with IE 6.1, but generally I go for Opera 10.64 > or thereabouts. Still very useful and not very demanding on system > resources. > > I'll let you know about your web page later. > > --Chuck > > > From scaron at umich.edu Thu Jul 2 19:07:21 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 20:07:21 -0400 Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear In-Reply-To: <20150702211356.GH12235@n0jcf.net> References: <20150702191612.3C3AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20150702211356.GH12235@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Cribbing! Brilliant! I love that. Definitely going to remember that trick when I try to rack my 11/34. Anyone got a spare set of rails? :O Best, Sean On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 5:13 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Thursday (07/02/2015 at 03:16PM -0400), Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > From: Sean Caron > > > > > I think there's a lot of good advice here > > > > Lots of good advice here; any chance we can capture it (and the rest in > this > > thread) in a Wiki page? (Hint, hint... :-) > > A tiny bit more advice, > > Don't forget or loose the "third foot" that is at the bottom middle of > the rack and slides out toward the front to keep the rack from tipping > over once you have the 11/34 racked and slide it out to work on it. > The machine is plenty heavy enough to tip over even a rack that has two > RLs also installed in it. It's an important safety feature. > > I found the 11/34A too heavy to lift into position in my rack above the > one RL at the bottom by myself so I used "cribbing" to raise it a little > bit at a time. I used 3' lengths of 2x2 pine, a large pile of them, and > lifted each side, front and back of the machine 2" at a time and slid > one 2x2 in each time I lifted it. I kept lifting a little and raising > until the machine was almost exactly aligned with the rack slides in > the middle (of my "corporate rack") and then I slid the rack up to the > machine rather than other way around. Worked like a charm and I never > had to lift that bad boy more than about 2". > > I like being self-sufficient and not having to bug people when I want > to play with this gear so this was the poor man's option over purchasing > an engine hoist or a lot of steroids. > > Chris > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 22:02:21 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 23:02:21 -0400 Subject: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear In-Reply-To: References: <20150702191612.3C3AE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <003801d0b513$2698f970$73caec50$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I can't thank you all enough for the insightful information. I was on the phone for a good 2 hours last night talking to someone who broke down what i needed to do step by step. The trailer being used is a uhaul 12x6 trailer, details here : :// www.uhaul.com/Trailers/6x12-Cargo-Trailer-Rental/RV/ Im uncertain of how tall the racks are, from what was described on the phone I should be able to lay the two racks down in the trailer. I have 2 friends coming to help for certain and may possibly be bringing a third friend. My friends are much stronger than I am, as long as i get the two racks separated and the rl drives heads locked I think we should be able to get it all in the trailer. Im going to wrap all the faces of the drives in movers blankets so they do not get scuffed up,removing the side panels to the racks, and bracing the glass on the tape drive with thick cardboard covered with moving blankets to prevent it from getting scratched or broken. I was honestly planning from the start to take all of the drives and cpu out of the racks, but if it can be laid down in the trailer and i dont have to mess with pulling everything out of the rack and dealing with odd hidden screws on the rails, then that's the way i will do it. I have the muscle there to do it that way i might as well use them, setting it back up here at home should be simple from that point. Ill post back before i leave for the trip to go pick it up, ill probably have a big collection of pictures of the trip and the stuff i got that I will share once i get back. --Devin On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > I'd love to help! But look how my web skills are sharp! :o) > > www.tabalabs.com.br > > (Thanks for the host, Jay! :D) > > --- > Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 7:05 PM > Subject: RE: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear > > > > Hence the reason I asked on-list for a web developer. One response thus >> far.... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel >> Chiappa >> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 2:16 PM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu >> Subject: Re: seeking advice on moving PDP 11 and related gear >> >> > From: Sean Caron >> >> > I think there's a lot of good advice here >> >> Lots of good advice here; any chance we can capture it (and the rest in >> this >> thread) in a Wiki page? (Hint, hint... :-) >> >> Noel >> >> >> > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Jul 3 00:00:59 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2015 17:00:59 +1200 Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY source of web content? In-Reply-To: <630A9D41-CF51-4012-8420-9AEEEC4C64B6@swri.edu> References: <630A9D41-CF51-4012-8420-9AEEEC4C64B6@swri.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for all those replies, and feedback on what the test page looked like on various devices. Much appreciated. I see there are various views as expected. I guess it depends on what I want the website to do in the end. One of the reasons I'm doing this is more to make sure the pages are ok for mobile. A lot of people now use a mobile platform for their leisure browsing. On average 25% of the people looking at the site are now on a mobile platform. However, I also want it to be nicely formatted, although somewhat minimalist and clean. I also want it to be easy to maintain. I'm not interested in people seeing ads (if fact those google ads on the site at the moment are going to disappear) or whiz-bang things. I'd like to think the site might inspire people into the hobby, or get them interested in the history of personal computing, somehow. Especially younger people, or people in their 30s-40s who weren't necessarily there in the day,,,or were very young. This is why I'd like google search to index them well. So people can find them. The site doesn't offer a lot of resources in the sense of downloads to the community..the exception being the System 80 sub-section and NZ Bits and Bytes downloads (which is mirrored on achive.org anyway). At the moment the System 80 site might stay as is. It's a complex site and will probably be the last piece I tackle. >It is quite easy with html 5 and css3, the modern tools of the web >designer, to detect when a lynx browser is being used to access the page >and in response present a text version of the site. >best of both worlds Bill, can you point me to a site which covers this? What I don't want to do though is to duplicate the site, but if something can strip out everything except text, images and links on the fly if it detects a non-compliant (old) browser, it might be worth looking at. >Oh, I know it can be done. It's not a /technical/ problem :-) Yes. It's an "is the effort worth it" for those hardy few kind of question. Terry (Tez) From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Fri Jul 3 03:37:30 2015 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 10:37:30 +0200 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <559649CA.8020200@xs4all.nl> On 2015-07-02 02:36 PM, tony duell wrote: >> > I share your favourite(s). In the danish IT-museum-to-be (www.datamuseum.dk) we have two >> > P857-based systems running. We have lots of spare parts and nearly all documentation, so >> > if you need something, you are welcome to ask. > Unfortunately I don't own anything in that series :-(. What I have is : > > P850 in the 6U rack box. I have the CPU technical manual and user manuals for it. > > P851 in card cage with quite a bit of I/O and twin 8" floppies. I have the user manual, CPU and I/O > technical manuals and manuals for the floppy drive unit, including the CDC manual for the drives themselves > > P854 in cardcage with floppy drives and hard disk controller. Alas the X1215 hard disk was scrapped before > I got it. I have a preliminary CPU technical manual, and of course I/O boards are the same as the P851 ones. > > Quite a few spare boards including complete P851 and P854 CPU board sets, I/O, RAM, extender board, > prototyping boards (some have been used, I think I even have a brand new one), a single-chip P800 CPU, > and so on. > > The manuals I am looking for (some hope!) are : > > The full P854 CPU technical manual (the one I have does not include the microcode source, that is 'to be > supplied'). > > Information on the hard disk controller for the X1215 in the P854 chassis. This is one eurocard with > an 8X305 or something on it. I have some handwritten notes + a block diagram nothing more. > > P850 Core memory module technical manual > > P850/855 series I/O board technical manuals. > > It is possible I could get the manuals I have scanned if there is any serious interest > > -tony There are some manuals online, but those are from the software side: http://www.theoengel.nl/P800/ and http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/divcomp/doc/index.html. > > > > P850 I/O board technical manuals Fred Jan From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Jul 3 03:31:45 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 09:31:45 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY source of web content? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 03 Jul 2015 10:26:35 +1200" Message-ID: <01PNWF8W1RTG0084J5@beyondthepale.ie> > > The website does have a few articles and resources of interest to vintage > computer hobbyists, which I wouldn't want to make inaccessible. The > question is, how many guys like us, those who dabble with old tech, are > likely to use ancient browsers as their ONLY source of web content. I > suspect not many. Should I worry about it? Any comments welcome. > I'm glad I waited to reply. Fred and Mouse have saved me the work of having to compose my thoughts on this. > > On a related note, I'd be interested if anyone on the list CAN'T read this > page properly: > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/temp.html > It loads up fine using Mozilla/5.0 or SWB V1.1-12 based on Seamonkey 1.1.12 (or whatever it is called this week) running on VMS (Alpha). When I tried last night, there was a small white rectangle over part of the "index" link but this seems to be fixed now. Looks grand in Lynx too. Highlighting "IBM XT" and pressing enter downloads the picture and displays it using XV as expected. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 07:30:59 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2015 08:30:59 -0400 Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY source of web content? In-Reply-To: References: <630A9D41-CF51-4012-8420-9AEEEC4C64B6@swri.edu> Message-ID: Here is a simple example that replaces tables with div tags. I am in the process of migrating this site to html5 http://dev.matlackflorist.com/test.html Bill On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 1:00 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Thanks for all those replies, and feedback on what the test page looked > like on various devices. Much appreciated. > > I see there are various views as expected. I guess it depends on what I > want the website to do in the end. One of the reasons I'm doing this is > more to make sure the pages are ok for mobile. A lot of people now use a > mobile platform for their leisure browsing. On average 25% of the people > looking at the site are now on a mobile platform. > > However, I also want it to be nicely formatted, although somewhat > minimalist and clean. I also want it to be easy to maintain. I'm not > interested in people seeing ads (if fact those google ads on the site at > the moment are going to disappear) or whiz-bang things. I'd like to think > the site might inspire people into the hobby, or get them interested in the > history of personal computing, somehow. Especially younger people, or > people in their 30s-40s who weren't necessarily there in the day,,,or were > very young. This is why I'd like google search to index them well. So > people can find them. > > The site doesn't offer a lot of resources in the sense of downloads to the > community..the exception being the System 80 sub-section and NZ Bits and > Bytes downloads (which is mirrored on achive.org anyway). At the moment > the System 80 site might stay as is. It's a complex site and will probably > be the last piece I tackle. > > >It is quite easy with html 5 and css3, the modern tools of the web > >designer, to detect when a lynx browser is being used to access the page > >and in response present a text version of the site. > > >best of both worlds > > Bill, can you point me to a site which covers this? What I don't want to > do though is to duplicate the site, but if something can strip out > everything except text, images and links on the fly if it detects a > non-compliant (old) browser, it might be worth looking at. > > >Oh, I know it can be done. It's not a /technical/ problem :-) > > Yes. It's an "is the effort worth it" for those hardy few kind of > question. > > Terry (Tez) > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Jul 3 07:39:37 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2015 08:39:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How many use old browsers (e.g. =< Netscape 4 or IE 6) as their ONLY source of web content? In-Reply-To: <01PNWF8W1RTG0084J5@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PNWF8W1RTG0084J5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <201507031239.IAA08417@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> On a related note, I'd be interested if anyone on the list CAN'T >> read this page properly: >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/temp.html Well, define "properly". Lynx gives me ("| " prefix added manually for email purposes) | Just a test page - please ignore (p1 of 2) | | Terry Stewart's (Tezza's) Projects and Articles (Blog) | | Projects and Articles Index | _________________________________________________________________ | | More on classic-computers.org.nz | | Home | Updates | Collection | Videos | DS System 80 | NZ Bits & Bytes | Guestbook | NZ VC Forums | NZ Collectors | File Extraction | | The title of the article would go right here | | Here is a subheading | | This is where the main text would go. This page is now completely | without tables!! It also used the new HTML5 elements
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