From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb  1 01:00:40 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 07:00:40 +0000
Subject: Unknown TTY ICs
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUyX1aoAX4CbEQ0Qm+jXo0w_62+xiZg9=+n3MY2Sm=ps-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUyX1aoAX4CbEQ0Qm+jXo0w_62+xiZg9=+n3MY2Sm=ps-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B2A18@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> 
> Can anyone identify these TTY ICs? A friend gave them to me, but doesn't
> recall what they came from.
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/AIfiOyY.jpg

Possibly out of a Model 43. There are 2 40 pin custom ICs on the main board and some 24 (maybe 28)
pin ones on the keyboard.

-tony

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Sun Feb  1 05:19:30 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2015 11:19:30 +0000 (WET)
Subject: Destructive Imaging of DECTAPE II Media
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 31 Jan 2015 11:00:50 -0800"
 <4EC9FCE7-D73C-445F-982F-8A141289A13A@nf6x.net>
References: <573E5826-D8A8-4488-92B3-B428033357D1@nf6x.net>
 <5EFF1E51-6479-4D0E-AF25-3B81FAFD63C1@nf6x.net> <54CD2358.6060008@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <01PI06S2DH9U005QF2@beyondthepale.ie>

Mark J. Blair wrote:
>
>> On Jan 31, 2015, at 10:47, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On 01/31/2015 10:39 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
>>> Poking around on eBay, I see that there were other brands (Teac,
>>> Wangtek, Everex...) of streaming tape backup drives that look like
>>> they may have used those audio-cassette-like tapes with the notch on
>>> the back edge, much like the TU60. Maybe one of those transports
>>> could be adapted for this wacky scheme? I might buy one of the
>>> cheaper ones and some matching tapes to experiment with.
>> 
>> Are you thinking of the DC2000/2100 type drives?  I think that they're a bit
>> too large.  How about, say, an Irwin drive using DC1000 minicarts?
>
>No, I'm thinking of things like Teac MT-2ST drives, using audio-cassette-like
>CT-600H cartridges. Some random googling suggests that those sorts of drives
>may move the tape at around 90 ips, so hopefully they don't use capstan and
>pinch roller drive that's designed for slow audio tape movement. 
>
>I just ordered the cheapest one of those drives listed, and some matching
>tapes, to experiment with. Maybe it'll provide a better transport than the
>data logger tape transport that I also have on the way? And either of them
>might be easier to hack for this project than a regular audio cassette
>transport that's designed for much slower tape speed.
>

I've got three Verbatim ST-600 "High Density Streamer Cassette" and five
Maxell CS-600HD "High density data cassette back coated 183m/600ft"
audio-cassette-like tapes with the notch on the back edge.  Most have data
written on them from around 1994 but one of each type is unused and still in
plastic wrapping.  Another of the Verbatim tapes is missing the box.

If they are of any use, they are available for postage from Ireland.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sun Feb  1 11:19:52 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2015 11:19:52 -0600
Subject: Tape Drive Capstans
In-Reply-To: <20150130213005.GC21580@brevard.conman.org>
References: <01e501d03bf5$1b0ede90$512c9bb0$@net>
 <54CA9593.8080207@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1501291521170.16460@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <20150129124422.U15904@shell.lmi.net> <026e01d03cba$c2424150$46c6c3f0$@net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B2878@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <20150130213005.GC21580@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <54CE6038.4000204@gmail.com>

On 01/30/2015 03:30 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> 1. You can't win
>
> 2. You can't break even
>
> 3. You can't get out of the game.

The only winning move is not to play? :-)



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Feb  1 11:24:20 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 09:24:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tape Drive Capstans
In-Reply-To: <54CE6038.4000204@gmail.com>
References: <01e501d03bf5$1b0ede90$512c9bb0$@net>
 <54CA9593.8080207@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1501291521170.16460@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <20150129124422.U15904@shell.lmi.net> <026e01d03cba$c2424150$46c6c3f0$@net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B2878@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <20150130213005.GC21580@brevard.conman.org> <54CE6038.4000204@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150201092320.H63422@shell.lmi.net>

> > 1. You can't win
> > 2. You can't break even
> > 3. You can't get out of the game.

> The only winning move is not to play? :-)

See #3.







From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun Feb  1 12:15:28 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 10:15:28 -0800
Subject: Destructive Imaging of DECTAPE II Media
In-Reply-To: <01PI06S2DH9U005QF2@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <573E5826-D8A8-4488-92B3-B428033357D1@nf6x.net>
 <5EFF1E51-6479-4D0E-AF25-3B81FAFD63C1@nf6x.net> <54CD2358.6060008@sydex.com>
 <01PI06S2DH9U005QF2@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <401F1EF8-E901-4BCA-84DA-9717E68959CC@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 1, 2015, at 03:19, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie> wrote:
> 
> I've got three Verbatim ST-600 "High Density Streamer Cassette" and five
> Maxell CS-600HD "High density data cassette back coated 183m/600ft"
> audio-cassette-like tapes with the notch on the back edge.  Most have data
> written on them from around 1994 but one of each type is unused and still in
> plastic wrapping.  Another of the Verbatim tapes is missing the box.
> 
> If they are of any use, they are available for postage from Ireland.

I don't think I'll need them, but thank you for the offer!

I've received the Teac MR-30 data recorder tape transport that Bob Rosenbloom suggested. It looks promising, though I also plan to experiment with a Teac MT-2ST streamer transport that may work better. I made a video introducing TU58 innards and the MR-30 transport, in case anybody is interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo4qfVl-Y-o


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From vrs at msn.com  Sun Feb  1 12:22:38 2015
From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 10:22:38 -0800
Subject: 3Dprint switches
In-Reply-To: <000001d03d04$165f6b20$431e4160$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000001d03d04$165f6b20$431e4160$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <BLU436-SMTP31DF030D7939BD79A9DCF8B23F0@phx.gbl>

From: Jay West: Friday, January 30, 2015 7:14 PM
> I don't recall if this was talked about here before, but I just found these
> via google.
> 
> PDP8
> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:360853

Here are some of my efforts, one of which is based on his:
http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php

I've had excellent results ordering from Shapeways.
The switch handles are not cosmetically pleasing when 
printed with the usual hobby gear, and the improved 
resolution of Shapeways' sintered nylon printer really 
helps.  You'll want to seal the result -- the sintered 
nylon parts are very porous and magnets for dirt.
Urethane based floor shines are great for this.
The surfactants make it easy to just dip the parts 
for a smooth thin coat.  (Twice works for me.)

I also have (offline) minor tweaks to adjust the rest 
angle to more perfectly match existing switch handles, 
which I still need to have printed and test.  (The ones 
there now are fine if you're ordering a whole set.)

(The pictures there are just renders.  Someday I should 
add photos of the actual objects.)

    Vince 

From chrise at pobox.com  Sun Feb  1 14:22:09 2015
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 14:22:09 -0600
Subject: Unknown TTY ICs
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B2A18@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <CAKtEYUyX1aoAX4CbEQ0Qm+jXo0w_62+xiZg9=+n3MY2Sm=ps-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B2A18@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <20150201202209.GA6266@n0jcf.net>

I asked the question over on the Greenkeys list where all the Teletype experts
hang out.  I got this reply,

  Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 14:05:00 -0600
  From: Paul Kasley <kasley at fnal.gov>
  To: chrise at pobox.com, greenkeys at mailman.qth.net
  Subject: Re: [GreenKeys] Fwd: Unknown TTY ICs

  Teletype did indeed make their own ICs and they did indeed mark them
  ?TTY?. My first assignment as a co-op in 1973 at the T7 R&D facility
  was to profile PN junction depths on diffused wafers. The R&D fab was
  on the first floor of T7. Just off the T5 cafeteria was the epitaxial
  deposition lab. The PMOS manufacturing facility was on the north side
  of T3.

  TTY custom ICs went into the model 43, the model 40, and certainly other
  products that came after my time there.

  The initial process was P-channel and they did eventually make N-channel
  devices.

  Tag Waggener was a WECO guy that came to TTY in ?73 to lead the
  effort. He chronicled it in ?Teletype, We made That Data Move?
  (self-published on lulu.com).

  -Paul Kasley W9TS

Tag's book,

http://www.lulu.com/shop/herbert-a-waggener/teletype-we-made-that-data-move/paperback/product-13384543.html

Chris N0JCF

On Sunday (02/01/2015 at 07:00AM +0000), tony duell wrote:
> > 
> > Can anyone identify these TTY ICs? A friend gave them to me, but doesn't
> > recall what they came from.
> > 
> > http://i.imgur.com/AIfiOyY.jpg
> 
> Possibly out of a Model 43. There are 2 40 pin custom ICs on the main board and some 24 (maybe 28)
> pin ones on the keyboard.
> 
> -tony

-- 
Chris Elmquist


From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk  Sun Feb  1 08:58:56 2015
From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2015 14:58:56 +0000
Subject: DECpc 433 (PCW10) manual
Message-ID: <D0F3EFB0.4AB2B%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>

Folks,

I rescued one of these from work yesterday, it's the slim desktop model with
external drive enclosure. Inside there's a daughterboard with 483-33
processor and co-pro socket. On this daughterboard is a VGA port and rotary
selector which either makes the machine work or not. (CMOS error beep code)

This is a very multi-position selector, anyone have a book of words that
explains what they all mean? Google and MANX have come up blank.

Cheers,

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?



From gerardcjat at free.fr  Sun Feb  1 10:15:44 2015
From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 17:15:44 +0100
Subject: Pair of HP 1000 E-Series minicomputers on eBay
Message-ID: <AA6194BD7D3943B08782E0BAE7C5EC78@medion>

Hello Tony
Beeing an HP lover too, I am just wondering  .....
Are you able to "see" this kind of item, on ebay, from UK ??
For myself, beeing in Paris, ( France, not Texas  ;-)   ) .... I am denied acces to these kind of item on ebay !!
Is there a "work around" trick  ???
Regards


---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
http://www.avast.com

From jfoust at threedee.com  Sun Feb  1 16:23:13 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2015 16:23:13 -0600
Subject: 3Dprint switches
In-Reply-To: <BLU436-SMTP31DF030D7939BD79A9DCF8B23F0@phx.gbl>
References: <000001d03d04$165f6b20$431e4160$@classiccmp.org>
 <BLU436-SMTP31DF030D7939BD79A9DCF8B23F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <mailman.24.1422830126.1134.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 12:22 PM 2/1/2015, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
>I've had excellent results ordering from Shapeways.
>The switch handles are not cosmetically pleasing when printed with the usual hobby gear, and the improved resolution of Shapeways' sintered nylon printer really helps. 

What were your results in trying the usual ABS and PLA of common
plastic printers?

- John


From vrs at msn.com  Sun Feb  1 17:36:43 2015
From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 15:36:43 -0800
Subject: 3Dprint switches
In-Reply-To: <20150201223526.81CE02073EEA@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <000001d03d04$165f6b20$431e4160$@classiccmp.org>
 <BLU436-SMTP31DF030D7939BD79A9DCF8B23F0@phx.gbl>
 <20150201223526.81CE02073EEA@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <BLU436-SMTP61A9170FD823D9E8DCCBCAB23F0@phx.gbl>

From: John Foust: Sunday, February 01, 2015 2:23 PM
> At 12:22 PM 2/1/2015, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
>>I've had excellent results ordering from Shapeways.
>>The switch handles are not cosmetically pleasing when printed with the usual 
>>hobby gear, and the improved resolution of Shapeways' sintered nylon printer 
>>really helps.
>
> What were your results in trying the usual ABS and PLA of common
> plastic printers?

The part are generally functional, but there's significant "banding,"
where the individual extrusion layers are visible in the result.  This is
made worse by the need to orient the part to maximize the mechanical
strength of the result.  The color choices are generally quite limited, too.

Admittedly, these issues can be mitigated with acetone wash, sanding
and filling, and paint.  But really, that's a lot more work than I wanted
to do, especially for about two dozen small parts.

The sintered nylon parts come smooth enough out of the "strong and
flexible, polished" process, and are available in acceptable yellow and
orange colors.  The only issues are their porous nature and their matte
finish, both of which are fixed by the urethane floor shine.  (If you need
PDP-11 or other colors, then you can probably substitute a suitable
paint for the floor polish.)  They do cost a little over $4 each, but
that doesn't really seem that bad.

    Vince 


From kylevowen at gmail.com  Sun Feb  1 22:23:30 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 22:23:30 -0600
Subject: Friden EC-130 Help
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUxbtTbiiNATZE1B-tMw+3Nd=7YoH_1LsohY2ZJFCVYZPg@mail.gmail.com>

A friend of mine gave me a Friden EC-130. It's in pretty good shape, though
it's missing quite a number of screws, as well as the bottom plate.
Pictures here: http://imgur.com/a/OjxCn

As you can see from the pictures, I don't get any distinguishable digits on
the CRT. Thankfully, most of the logic does seem to be working; entering
too many digits before the decimal place as set by the rotary switch
results in an overflow upon hitting enter. Entering thirteen 9s and
dividing by 1 takes about 2 seconds (the button stays depressed; quite
cool), whereas simple adding and subtracting returns the result right away.
Keyboard feels good, and you can see the CRT modulate differently depending
on what's to be displayed.

I've tried the obvious thing of reseating boards and rotating the pots back
and forth a bit, to no avail.

My understanding is that schematics are not available for the unit. Is that
still correct? It wouldn't be a hard unit to reverse engineer; it's just a
whole lot of components.

If anyone has any advice to offer, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Kyle

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Sun Feb  1 22:27:32 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 22:27:32 -0600
Subject: Unknown TTY ICs
In-Reply-To: <20150201202209.GA6266@n0jcf.net>
References: <CAKtEYUyX1aoAX4CbEQ0Qm+jXo0w_62+xiZg9=+n3MY2Sm=ps-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B2A18@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <20150201202209.GA6266@n0jcf.net>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUwYqEPLXimcHYA8X-sT2Pne+J1LwZ0CG_=HCR95-wDs2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> wrote:

> I asked the question over on the Greenkeys list where all the Teletype
> experts
> hang out.  I got this reply,
>
>   Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 14:05:00 -0600
>   From: Paul Kasley <kasley at fnal.gov>
>   To: chrise at pobox.com, greenkeys at mailman.qth.net
>   Subject: Re: [GreenKeys] Fwd: Unknown TTY ICs
>
>   Teletype did indeed make their own ICs and they did indeed mark them
>   ?TTY?. My first assignment as a co-op in 1973 at the T7 R&D facility
>   was to profile PN junction depths on diffused wafers. The R&D fab was
>   on the first floor of T7. Just off the T5 cafeteria was the epitaxial
>   deposition lab. The PMOS manufacturing facility was on the north side
>   of T3.
>
>   TTY custom ICs went into the model 43, the model 40, and certainly other
>   products that came after my time there.
>

Very cool! I've got some capability to open these up and take die shots if
folks are interested. Of course, if someone needs these instead, let me
know.

On Sunday (02/01/2015 at 07:00AM +0000), tony duell wrote:
>
> > Possibly out of a Model 43. There are 2 40 pin custom ICs on the main
> board and some 24 (maybe 28)
> > pin ones on the keyboard.
>

Looking through the repair manual on bitsavers didn't really offer any
obvious hints at the IC numbering scheme. I also didn't see any pictures
online of the internals of one, though I think I know someone who has one.
I could verify that these are in fact Model 43 parts in a few weeks,
perhaps.

Kyle

From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Sun Feb  1 22:43:13 2015
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 23:43:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: GNT-4601 punch cable help
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502012340130.47958@cpumagic.137clearview.org>


    I have a box of old HP paper tapes to read, and am having an awful time 
trying to build the right serial cable to connect a GNT-4601 reader/punch 
to a Linux PC.  Does anyone have a known good cable diagram and stty 
settings that will work?  Thank.


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sun Feb  1 23:03:49 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 23:03:49 -0600
Subject: Friden EC-130 Help
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUxbtTbiiNATZE1B-tMw+3Nd=7YoH_1LsohY2ZJFCVYZPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUxbtTbiiNATZE1B-tMw+3Nd=7YoH_1LsohY2ZJFCVYZPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd6sjVUpTEcM24vM6XiioJtzmi13TdbCuDoYUWHAqnjsig@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Kyle,

While I certainly cannot claim any level of expertise in the matter, I do
happen to have a functional EC-130 here. Or I should say, it was functional
the last time I examined it, which was around one year ago. My machine was,
likely still is, suffering from one malady that yours is not - my keys will
not hold-down during long computations. As you might be aware, the keypad
lock-out feature was implemented due to the fact that a talented keypunch
operator could frequently get 'ahead' of the machine - which would result
in errant output.

Likewise, I have no service documentation for it. But if I can be of any
assistance, so far as providing voltage / resistance / component readings,
I'll try to do my best as time allows.

They are fascinating machines - all the more amazing, considering that they
were almost entirely designed by a single engineer.. save the analog /
display portions, as I understand it.

On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 10:23 PM, Kyle Owen <kylevowen at gmail.com> wrote:

> A friend of mine gave me a Friden EC-130. It's in pretty good shape, though
> it's missing quite a number of screws, as well as the bottom plate.
> Pictures here: http://imgur.com/a/OjxCn
>
> As you can see from the pictures, I don't get any distinguishable digits on
> the CRT. Thankfully, most of the logic does seem to be working; entering
> too many digits before the decimal place as set by the rotary switch
> results in an overflow upon hitting enter. Entering thirteen 9s and
> dividing by 1 takes about 2 seconds (the button stays depressed; quite
> cool), whereas simple adding and subtracting returns the result right away.
> Keyboard feels good, and you can see the CRT modulate differently depending
> on what's to be displayed.
>
> I've tried the obvious thing of reseating boards and rotating the pots back
> and forth a bit, to no avail.
>
> My understanding is that schematics are not available for the unit. Is that
> still correct? It wouldn't be a hard unit to reverse engineer; it's just a
> whole lot of components.
>
> If anyone has any advice to offer, it would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kyle
>

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sun Feb  1 23:06:48 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 21:06:48 -0800
Subject: Unknown TTY ICs
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUwYqEPLXimcHYA8X-sT2Pne+J1LwZ0CG_=HCR95-wDs2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUyX1aoAX4CbEQ0Qm+jXo0w_62+xiZg9=+n3MY2Sm=ps-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B2A18@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <20150201202209.GA6266@n0jcf.net>
 <CAKtEYUwYqEPLXimcHYA8X-sT2Pne+J1LwZ0CG_=HCR95-wDs2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A954E7F-80B0-4CDC-B8E2-522E9531D2A2@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-01, at 8:27 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> wrote:
> 
>> I asked the question over on the Greenkeys list where all the Teletype
>> experts
>> hang out.  I got this reply,
>> 
>>  Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 14:05:00 -0600
>>  From: Paul Kasley <kasley at fnal.gov>
>>  To: chrise at pobox.com, greenkeys at mailman.qth.net
>>  Subject: Re: [GreenKeys] Fwd: Unknown TTY ICs
>> 
>>  Teletype did indeed make their own ICs and they did indeed mark them
>>  ?TTY?. My first assignment as a co-op in 1973 at the T7 R&D facility
>>  was to profile PN junction depths on diffused wafers. The R&D fab was
>>  on the first floor of T7. Just off the T5 cafeteria was the epitaxial
>>  deposition lab. The PMOS manufacturing facility was on the north side
>>  of T3.
>> 
>>  TTY custom ICs went into the model 43, the model 40, and certainly other
>>  products that came after my time there.
>> 
> 
> Very cool! I've got some capability to open these up and take die shots if
> folks are interested. Of course, if someone needs these instead, let me
> know.
> 
> On Sunday (02/01/2015 at 07:00AM +0000), tony duell wrote:
>> 
>>> Possibly out of a Model 43. There are 2 40 pin custom ICs on the main
>> board and some 24 (maybe 28)
>>> pin ones on the keyboard.
>> 
> 
> Looking through the repair manual on bitsavers didn't really offer any
> obvious hints at the IC numbering scheme. I also didn't see any pictures
> online of the internals of one, though I think I know someone who has one.
> I could verify that these are in fact Model 43 parts in a few weeks,
> perhaps.


I checked a Teletype Model 43. The major ICs are :

TTY
25427
430671		(40-pin, main PCB)

TTY
24988
430641		(40-pin, main PCB)

TTY 
25228
342238		(28-pin, keyboard PCB)

TTY
28415
342280		(28-pin, keyboard PCB)

TTY
28430
342280		(28-pin, keyboard PCB, 2 units)

Don't seem to match those in your photos.
The unit checked has date stamps from 1982 on other components.


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun Feb  1 23:19:55 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 21:19:55 -0800
Subject: GNT-4601 punch cable help
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502012340130.47958@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502012340130.47958@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <3DA12BC9-20AA-4A61-A789-9FCF393AE8AB@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 1, 2015, at 20:43, Mike Loewen <mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us> wrote:
> 
> 
>   I have a box of old HP paper tapes to read, and am having an awful time trying to build the right serial cable to connect a GNT-4601 reader/punch to a Linux PC.  Does anyone have a known good cable diagram and stty settings that will work?  Thank.

I've connected my GNT4604 to my Mac. I believe I used 4800 baud, 8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity, nardware (RTS/CTS) handshaking. I don't recall needing to do anything unusual for the cable. I have a technical manual for the 4604/4606 if you need it; I don't know how helpful it would be for a 4601.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun Feb  1 23:25:59 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 21:25:59 -0800
Subject: GNT-4601 punch cable help
In-Reply-To: <3DA12BC9-20AA-4A61-A789-9FCF393AE8AB@nf6x.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502012340130.47958@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <3DA12BC9-20AA-4A61-A789-9FCF393AE8AB@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <44EB127F-D8EF-40E8-AA40-DA0C659D408E@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 1, 2015, at 21:19, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
> 
> nardware (RTS/CTS) handshaking
> 

Note to self: Spell-checking only helps if you actually pay attention to the red lines on the screen... :/


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Feb  2 00:04:43 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 06:04:43 +0000
Subject: Pair of HP 1000 E-Series minicomputers on eBay
In-Reply-To: <AA6194BD7D3943B08782E0BAE7C5EC78@medion>
References: <AA6194BD7D3943B08782E0BAE7C5EC78@medion>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B2B2D@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

>
> Hello Tony
> Beeing an HP lover too, I am just wondering  .....
> Are you able to "see" this kind of item, on ebay, from UK ??
> For myself, beeing in Paris, ( France, not Texas  ;-)   ) .... I am denied acces to these kind of item on ebay !!
> Is there a "work around" trick  ???

Normally looking on ebay.com (as opposed to ebay.co.uk) will find them. Not that it will help you get them
shipped...

In this case I just followed the URL in the original message. 

-tony

From jws at jwsss.com  Mon Feb  2 01:44:16 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2015 23:44:16 -0800
Subject: Friden EC-130 Help
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd6sjVUpTEcM24vM6XiioJtzmi13TdbCuDoYUWHAqnjsig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUxbtTbiiNATZE1B-tMw+3Nd=7YoH_1LsohY2ZJFCVYZPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd6sjVUpTEcM24vM6XiioJtzmi13TdbCuDoYUWHAqnjsig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54CF2AD0.8070400@jwsss.com>


On 2/1/2015 9:03 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> Hi Kyle,
>
> While I certainly cannot claim any level of expertise in the matter, I do
> happen to have a functional EC-130 here. Or I should say, it was functional
> the last time I examined it, which was around one year ago. My machine was,
> likely still is, suffering from one malady that yours is not - my keys will
> not hold-down during long computations. As you might be aware, the keypad
> lock-out feature was implemented due to the fact that a talented keypunch
> operator could frequently get 'ahead' of the machine - which would result
> in errant output.
>
> Likewise, I have no service documentation for it. But if I can be of any
> assistance, so far as providing voltage / resistance / component readings,
> I'll try to do my best as time allows.
>
> They are fascinating machines - all the more amazing, considering that they
> were almost entirely designed by a single engineer.. save the analog /
> display portions, as I understand it.
This block diagram may help at least the discussion.

http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/f130block-l.html

I'd try to trace back if there is any possibility of doing so, on the 
display matrix, or maybe the blanking.  Your display looks like the 
deflection is pretty much well adjusted, but the display matrix logic 
isn't working to scoot the beam around when it counted to the position 
of a digit.

Maybe try scoping with care to see how the input to the CRT on the 
display drive works.

Hams broke up a huge number of these calculators in the past to harvest 
just the CRT and junked the rest.  I got my three from a guy who had 
been a singer / friden service guy, and beat out a number of hams 
answering a classified ad for his sale.  The CRT may be a well known 
commodity if you can find it, or know some older hams who might know who 
to ask.  ISTR there was a sheet on how to hook them up.

(OT) Sorry, Al, he had a lot of documentation, but I was not in collect 
everything mode then.  It was all for the take free., and he had a test 
machine in his living room (Singer system with a 10 platter drive.)  
Rare to unknown now days.

Nice find.
Jim
> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 10:23 PM, Kyle Owen <kylevowen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A friend of mine gave me a Friden EC-130. It's in pretty good shape, though
>> it's missing quite a number of screws, as well as the bottom plate.
>> Pictures here: http://imgur.com/a/OjxCn
>>
>> As you can see from the pictures, I don't get any distinguishable digits on
>> the CRT. Thankfully, most of the logic does seem to be working; entering
>> too many digits before the decimal place as set by the rotary switch
>> results in an overflow upon hitting enter. Entering thirteen 9s and
>> dividing by 1 takes about 2 seconds (the button stays depressed; quite
>> cool), whereas simple adding and subtracting returns the result right away.
>> Keyboard feels good, and you can see the CRT modulate differently depending
>> on what's to be displayed.
>>
>> I've tried the obvious thing of reseating boards and rotating the pots back
>> and forth a bit, to no avail.
>>
>> My understanding is that schematics are not available for the unit. Is that
>> still correct? It wouldn't be a hard unit to reverse engineer; it's just a
>> whole lot of components.
>>
>> If anyone has any advice to offer, it would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Kyle
>>
>


From drlegendre at gmail.com  Mon Feb  2 02:38:42 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 02:38:42 -0600
Subject: Friden EC-130 Help
In-Reply-To: <54CF2AD0.8070400@jwsss.com>
References: <CAKtEYUxbtTbiiNATZE1B-tMw+3Nd=7YoH_1LsohY2ZJFCVYZPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd6sjVUpTEcM24vM6XiioJtzmi13TdbCuDoYUWHAqnjsig@mail.gmail.com>
 <54CF2AD0.8070400@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd50fcG3HJYB+S4Hsyg5DSH0nmC_v_F9wSzVo=Yv4PNuUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Forgive me, or don't..

On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:44 AM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hams broke up a huge number of these calculators in the past to harvest
> just the CRT and junked the rest.


Wow, and what a bunch of short-sighted a$$holes they were.

From jws at jwsss.com  Mon Feb  2 04:05:52 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 02:05:52 -0800
Subject: Friden EC-130 Help
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd50fcG3HJYB+S4Hsyg5DSH0nmC_v_F9wSzVo=Yv4PNuUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUxbtTbiiNATZE1B-tMw+3Nd=7YoH_1LsohY2ZJFCVYZPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd6sjVUpTEcM24vM6XiioJtzmi13TdbCuDoYUWHAqnjsig@mail.gmail.com>
 <54CF2AD0.8070400@jwsss.com>
 <CAFjrmd50fcG3HJYB+S4Hsyg5DSH0nmC_v_F9wSzVo=Yv4PNuUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54CF4C00.1080905@jwsss.com>


On 2/2/2015 12:38 AM, drlegendre . wrote:
> Forgive me, or don't..
>
> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:44 AM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hams broke up a huge number of these calculators in the past to harvest
>> just the CRT and junked the rest.
>
> Wow, and what a bunch of short-sighted a$$holes they were.
>
>
My buy was not unusual.  The dealer had sold out probably 50 of them and 
I got the last ones he had.  They were considered more valuable for the 
display than as an artifact.  Remember this is in the 1975 and prior 
time frame.  And a lot were kept around, but there were really a lot 
retired as the revolution of the small solid state units showed up.

The Wang and fancier older units with scientific processing (read 
floating point) survived quite a bit longer.  And the HP ones of course 
were in a different class.

But going from 71 when I started college and into the time when I found 
these, the small LED 7 segment gizmos were mostly wiping these out.  I'm 
not talking everywhere, but these would be in business settings, and the 
newer calculators were more popular than these which are effectively 
RPN.  Not that you couldn't do what you needed to, but in business, 
calculators that ran tapes didn't easily map functionality into this 
unit, so shifting to one of these and then back to a possible mechanical 
calculator to run a tape not only required a change in how you ran the 
info, but also how you did the problem.

I never would have considered breaking one up unless it was a basket 
case, as the last thing that burned out in these were the CRT modules.

But he had sold a lot of junkers he had to a local ham who was going to 
salvage them.  He had been given notice that he would not have a job, 
and he had a house full of crap to clear out as far as he was 
concerned.  As I do now, I showed up and transfer crap from one place in 
Lafayette, La, to my place.

I don't call them assholes, but it is unfortunate that more were not 
salvaged.  But I see why.  BTW more perspective on the guy I found it 
was not a really good time for him, he could have walked away from the 
rented house and left all the crap.  Crappy pay from a flaky company was 
where he was at and soon no pay.

Jim

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Mon Feb  2 07:39:00 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 07:39:00 -0600
Subject: Friden EC-130 Help
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd6sjVUpTEcM24vM6XiioJtzmi13TdbCuDoYUWHAqnjsig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUxbtTbiiNATZE1B-tMw+3Nd=7YoH_1LsohY2ZJFCVYZPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd6sjVUpTEcM24vM6XiioJtzmi13TdbCuDoYUWHAqnjsig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUwr7y14h8Z_Q1ym-iDwdgWdejLCnMojW--1jd=RAD6X8w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 11:03 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Likewise, I have no service documentation for it. But if I can be of any
> assistance, so far as providing voltage / resistance / component readings,
> I'll try to do my best as time allows.
>

Thank you! That will likely be very helpful. I am first going to check the
ripple on the capacitors, as I noticed some waviness in the display.
Perhaps one or more of the electrolytics isn't filtering as well as it did
50 years ago. I did bring it up over the course of several minutes on a
variac; I didn't notice any unusually high currents, and both fuses
remained unbroken. I'd say it's promising!


> They are fascinating machines - all the more amazing, considering that they
> were almost entirely designed by a single engineer.. save the analog /
> display portions, as I understand it.


Yes, it's quite amazing that with fewer than 200 transistors, as well as a
multitude of diodes, resistors and capacitors (and a delay line, of course)
that a 4-stack 4-function RPN calculator could be made.

Kyle

From simski at dds.nl  Mon Feb  2 09:05:04 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 16:05:04 +0100
Subject: GNT-4601 punch cable help
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502012340130.47958@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502012340130.47958@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <54CF9220.9000405@dds.nl>

we have a 4601 and i've made a nullmodem cable, but at the moment, I 
cant to remember on which connector it went. i think is was the 
connector going to the terminal, not the computer one. via the dip 
switches on the bottom you can preset three speed settings, available at 
a switch on the top. I will take a look wednesday when i'm back at the 
museum.

simon

On 02-02-15 05:43, Mike Loewen wrote:
>     I have a box of old HP paper tapes to read, and am having an awful
> time trying to build the right serial cable to connect a GNT-4601
> reader/punch to a Linux PC.  Does anyone have a known good cable diagram
> and stty settings that will work?  Thank.
>
>
> Mike Loewen                mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
> Old Technology                http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From quapla at xs4all.nl  Mon Feb  2 10:24:45 2015
From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 17:24:45 +0100
Subject: LA75 wiring?
Message-ID: <a6874527f5ee51d8cd69fc1c0cde6477.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>


Quick Question, does anybody know the MMJ serial port wiring?
I have a MMJ cable with on one side a MMJ plug and want to put
a DB9 connector on the other end, but I can't find which wires
(of the 6) are used and which does what.

Thanks,

Ed

-- 
Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter.


From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Mon Feb  2 10:30:25 2015
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 16:30:25 +0000
Subject: LA75 wiring?
In-Reply-To: <a6874527f5ee51d8cd69fc1c0cde6477.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
References: <a6874527f5ee51d8cd69fc1c0cde6477.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <CABp7FHWkNx4m0nLKqA5ENxpNevKyTWkO_v8s+caikfLCQo8JaQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/dec-mmj.html

On 2 February 2015 at 16:24, E. Groenenberg <quapla at xs4all.nl> wrote:

>
> Quick Question, does anybody know the MMJ serial port wiring?
> I have a MMJ cable with on one side a MMJ plug and want to put
> a DB9 connector on the other end, but I can't find which wires
> (of the 6) are used and which does what.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed
>
> --
> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
> Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter.
>
>

From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Mon Feb  2 10:31:28 2015
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 16:31:28 +0000
Subject: LA75 wiring?
In-Reply-To: <CABp7FHWkNx4m0nLKqA5ENxpNevKyTWkO_v8s+caikfLCQo8JaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6874527f5ee51d8cd69fc1c0cde6477.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
 <CABp7FHWkNx4m0nLKqA5ENxpNevKyTWkO_v8s+caikfLCQo8JaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABp7FHUmuPKiP=7OVBD-Xwrow3gJ5f7UrLdQFCfkrmit+20z+w@mail.gmail.com>

You'll be wanting to wire up a H8571-J
If you use X-ON/X-OFF you can get away with a three wire cable.

On 2 February 2015 at 16:30, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> wrote:

> http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/dec-mmj.html
>
> On 2 February 2015 at 16:24, E. Groenenberg <quapla at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>>
>> Quick Question, does anybody know the MMJ serial port wiring?
>> I have a MMJ cable with on one side a MMJ plug and want to put
>> a DB9 connector on the other end, but I can't find which wires
>> (of the 6) are used and which does what.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> --
>> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
>> Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter.
>>
>>
>

From imp at bsdimp.com  Mon Feb  2 11:01:02 2015
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 10:01:02 -0700
Subject: DECpc 433 (PCW10) manual
In-Reply-To: <D0F3EFB0.4AB2B%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
References: <D0F3EFB0.4AB2B%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <363EA872-C91A-4CE0-9D3E-A9B81E79033E@bsdimp.com>


> On Feb 1, 2015, at 7:58 AM, Adrian Graham <witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Folks,
> 
> I rescued one of these from work yesterday, it's the slim desktop model with
> external drive enclosure. Inside there's a daughterboard with 483-33
> processor and co-pro socket. On this daughterboard is a VGA port and rotary
> selector which either makes the machine work or not. (CMOS error beep code)
> 
> This is a very multi-position selector, anyone have a book of words that
> explains what they all mean? Google and MANX have come up blank.

http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/mds-199909/cd2/pc/sd000018.pdf

Has the LP version of this machine. Is that what you?re after?

Warner


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Feb  2 13:06:28 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 20:06:28 +0100
Subject: Remember Coherent?
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFXC0PX2WCeeSZjFVeiU+mpkZ=5BXVTrmntXDgdvk0qLA@mail.gmail.com>

I could never afford it & figured I wouldn't understand it if I did.
But it sounded really cool.

Well, as of last month, it's now FOSS.

http://www.nesssoftware.com/home/mwc/source.php

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From quapla at xs4all.nl  Mon Feb  2 13:19:28 2015
From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 20:19:28 +0100
Subject: LA75 wiring?
In-Reply-To: <CABp7FHWkNx4m0nLKqA5ENxpNevKyTWkO_v8s+caikfLCQo8JaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6874527f5ee51d8cd69fc1c0cde6477.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
 <CABp7FHWkNx4m0nLKqA5ENxpNevKyTWkO_v8s+caikfLCQo8JaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a8a8ffa0f66410ca7cec0a97420296ca.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>


Ahhh, just what I need.

Thanks!

Ed

> http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/dec-mmj.html
>
> On 2 February 2015 at 16:24, E. Groenenberg <quapla at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>>
>> Quick Question, does anybody know the MMJ serial port wiring?
>> I have a MMJ cable with on one side a MMJ plug and want to put
>> a DB9 connector on the other end, but I can't find which wires
>> (of the 6) are used and which does what.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> --
>> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
>> Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter.
>>
>>
>


-- 
Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter.


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Feb  2 14:08:34 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 12:08:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Remember Coherent?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFXC0PX2WCeeSZjFVeiU+mpkZ=5BXVTrmntXDgdvk0qLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCFXC0PX2WCeeSZjFVeiU+mpkZ=5BXVTrmntXDgdvk0qLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502021208160.20716@deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 2 Feb 2015, Liam Proven wrote:

> I could never afford it & figured I wouldn't understand it if I did.
> But it sounded really cool.
>
> Well, as of last month, it's now FOSS.
>
> http://www.nesssoftware.com/home/mwc/source.php

The manual was VERY good as I recall.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From dzubint at vcn.bc.ca  Mon Feb  2 14:17:09 2015
From: dzubint at vcn.bc.ca (Thomas Dzubin)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 12:17:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Are the old archives ever going to be available?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1502021213170.30790@vcn.bc.ca>


I'm aware that "something" happened at the end of October 2014 and the 
cctalk archives (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ ) aren't
currently available before then.   Is this a permanent situation?

I used to occasionally search through old archive postings for various
VAX information and found it very useful.

Just asking...I'm not trying to be pushy.


From david at attglobal.net  Mon Feb  2 15:45:47 2015
From: david at attglobal.net (David Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 16:45:47 -0500
Subject: Remember Coherent?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502021208160.20716@deltasoft.com>
References: <CAMTenCFXC0PX2WCeeSZjFVeiU+mpkZ=5BXVTrmntXDgdvk0qLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502021208160.20716@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <54CFF00B.5090708@attglobal.net>

On 2/2/2015 3:08 PM, geneb wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Feb 2015, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> I could never afford it & figured I wouldn't understand it if I did.
>> But it sounded really cool.
>>
>> Well, as of last month, it's now FOSS.
>>
>> http://www.nesssoftware.com/home/mwc/source.php
>
> The manual was VERY good as I recall.

It was.  And even I could afford it while in college - $99.95 from Mark 
Williams Company.  It was a revelation compared to DOS.  Actual 
multitasking on my '286.  Actual tools like lex and yacc just like the 
big systems at school (HP mumble-thousands and Sun 2s). I wasn't in the 
Emacs camp, so the first thing I did was find a vi clone (elvis) to 
compile and use.  Lovely system it was.

- David


From azd30 at telus.net  Mon Feb  2 17:00:11 2015
From: azd30 at telus.net (azd30)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 16:00:11 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Remember Coherent?
In-Reply-To: <54CFF00B.5090708@attglobal.net>
References: <CAMTenCFXC0PX2WCeeSZjFVeiU+mpkZ=5BXVTrmntXDgdvk0qLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502021208160.20716@deltasoft.com>
 <54CFF00B.5090708@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <629913153.11405660.1422918011133.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net>

Ah the good old days! Bought v3 shortly after it was released, and ran it 24/7 on my 286. I even had about a dozen local users that would dial in to send/receive e-mail and read newsgroups via elm and trn.

Here's the UUCP map entry for it...

#N	bedrock
#S	Epson Equity II+ (80286); Coherent UNIX V3.2.0
#O	Infinite Concepts
#C	Alex D
#E	bedrock!root
#T	+1 416 525 4604
#P	195 Markland Street #2, Hamilton Ontario Canada L8P-2K7
#L	43 16 N / 73 55 W city
#R	Digital Image Processing, Hardware/Software Development
#U	blunile
#W	bedrock!alex (Alex D); Sat Feb  8 08:31:06 EST 1992
#
#	Now part of .guild.org domain
#
bedrock	= bedrock.guild.org
#
#	BP=both poll, WP=we poll, TP=they poll
#
bedrock	blunile(EVENING)	# WP 2400bps, downstream mail

--
alex

----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Schmidt" <david at attglobal.net>
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Sent: Monday, February 2, 2015 1:45:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Remember Coherent?
> 
> On 2/2/2015 3:08 PM, geneb wrote:
> > On Mon, 2 Feb 2015, Liam Proven wrote:
> >
> >> I could never afford it & figured I wouldn't understand it if I did.
> >> But it sounded really cool.
> >>
> >> Well, as of last month, it's now FOSS.
> >>
> >> http://www.nesssoftware.com/home/mwc/source.php
> >
> > The manual was VERY good as I recall.
> 
> It was.  And even I could afford it while in college - $99.95 from Mark
> Williams Company.  It was a revelation compared to DOS.  Actual
> multitasking on my '286.  Actual tools like lex and yacc just like the
> big systems at school (HP mumble-thousands and Sun 2s). I wasn't in the
> Emacs camp, so the first thing I did was find a vi clone (elvis) to
> compile and use.  Lovely system it was.
> 
> - David
> 
> 

From matt at 9track.net  Mon Feb  2 17:22:16 2015
From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 23:22:16 +0000
Subject: Are the old archives ever going to be available?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1502021213170.30790@vcn.bc.ca>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1502021213170.30790@vcn.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <54D006A8.5070201@9track.net>

On 02/02/2015 20:17, Thomas Dzubin wrote:
>
> I'm aware that "something" happened at the end of October 2014 and the
> cctalk archives (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ ) aren't
> currently available before then.   Is this a permanent situation?
>
> I used to occasionally search through old archive postings for various
> VAX information and found it very useful.
>
> Just asking...I'm not trying to be pushy.
>

A large part of the archives are available here with full text search
capability:

http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp


Matt

From jrr at flippers.com  Mon Feb  2 17:57:26 2015
From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 15:57:26 -0800
Subject: Remember Coherent?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFXC0PX2WCeeSZjFVeiU+mpkZ=5BXVTrmntXDgdvk0qLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCFXC0PX2WCeeSZjFVeiU+mpkZ=5BXVTrmntXDgdvk0qLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D00EE6.5070503@flippers.com>

On 02/02/2015 11:06 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> I could never afford it & figured I wouldn't understand it if I did.
> But it sounded really cool.
>
> Well, as of last month, it's now FOSS.
>
> http://www.nesssoftware.com/home/mwc/source.php
>
A buddy of mine knows a lot of the inside stories about Coherent - his 
company (he was the president at the time) was one of the ones that 
helped create it (as I recall the conversation).

I'll see if I can get him to tell his story - and post it here.

John :-#)#

-- 
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
                  www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"


From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Mon Feb  2 18:22:58 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 00:22:58 +0000
Subject: Are the old archives ever going to be available?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1502021213170.30790@vcn.bc.ca>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1502021213170.30790@vcn.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20150203002257.GA24784@mooli.org.uk>

On Mon, Feb 02, 2015 at 12:17:09PM -0800, Thomas Dzubin wrote:
> I'm aware that "something" happened at the end of October 2014 and the cctalk
> archives (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ ) aren't currently
> available before then. Is this a permanent situation?

The whole cctalk list was lost and re-created from scratch, and I guess that
includes the archives.

> I used to occasionally search through old archive postings for various VAX
> information and found it very useful. Just asking...I'm not trying to be
> pushy.

The Wayback Machine indexed cctalk before the crash, so you can download the
archives from there. Howver, it's a bit tedious to grab the whole lot, so I'll
stick a copy on my webspace at http://abuse.mooli.org.uk/cctalk/

It's still uploading because BT will only give this this corner of Islington
wet string rather than broadband (and Virgin Media can't even keep their string
moist), but there will eventually be two files:

cctalk-upstream-txtgz.zip

  A zipfile containing all of the original "downloadable version"s of the
  archive from 2005-February.txt.gz through 2014-October.txt.gz.

cctalk-maildir.tpxz

  The messages from above, massaged into a Maildir++ mailbox with folders
  cctalk/2005 through cctalk/2014, tarred and xz-compressed. This will make
  most sense to users who run their own IMAP server on Unix as they can just
  merge it in to their existing mailbox and let their MUA do the indexing and
  searching.

  It's not all in one folder because that's about 200k messages which is a bit
  unwieldy, but splitting by year gives roughly 20k messages per mailbox which
  is much more tractable.

The exact range of message dates archived is 2005-02-26 20:15:19 through
2014-10-02 08:31:19 (all UTC).


From tony.aiuto at gmail.com  Mon Feb  2 19:24:24 2015
From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 20:24:24 -0500
Subject: Remember Coherent?
In-Reply-To: <54D00EE6.5070503@flippers.com>
References: <CAMTenCFXC0PX2WCeeSZjFVeiU+mpkZ=5BXVTrmntXDgdvk0qLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D00EE6.5070503@flippers.com>
Message-ID: <CAKGyVsW6ENPFEoUSUyNRc993xG6nwUF-4vL2mh1+vtCrN0SCyQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have an old Tegra Genesis laser printer that, IIRC, runs Coherent in the
image processor. I have not fired it up in 20 years, so my memory may be
faulty on that, and it may have been one of the other Unix clones.

On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 6:57 PM, John Robertson <jrr at flippers.com> wrote:

> On 02/02/2015 11:06 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> I could never afford it & figured I wouldn't understand it if I did.
>> But it sounded really cool.
>>
>> Well, as of last month, it's now FOSS.
>>
>> http://www.nesssoftware.com/home/mwc/source.php
>>
>>  A buddy of mine knows a lot of the inside stories about Coherent - his
> company (he was the president at the time) was one of the ones that helped
> create it (as I recall the conversation).
>
> I'll see if I can get him to tell his story - and post it here.
>
> John :-#)#
>
> --
> John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
> Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
>                  www.flippers.com
> "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"
>
>

From shawn-gordon at cox.net  Mon Feb  2 20:29:16 2015
From: shawn-gordon at cox.net (Shawn Gordon)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 18:29:16 -0800
Subject: Remember Coherent?
In-Reply-To: <nX6W1p0054Eo0lz01X6alr>
References: <nX6W1p0054Eo0lz01X6alr>
Message-ID: <54D0327C.4010207@cox.net>

I still have the install floppies and books for some reason. I liked 
them as a unix reference.

On 2/2/2015 11:06 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> I could never afford it&  figured I wouldn't understand it if I did.
> But it sounded really cool.
>
> Well, as of last month, it's now FOSS.
>
> http://www.nesssoftware.com/home/mwc/source.php
>
>    

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Feb  3 13:59:42 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue,  3 Feb 2015 14:59:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Remember Coherent? 
Message-ID: <20150203195942.2860E18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Liam Proven

    > Well, as of last month, it's now FOSS.

Ah! If we hadn't lost him (sigh), DMR could now look at the code itself* to
see if they ripped off Unix... :-)

Love this line from the intro to the documentation: "COHERENT is what UNIX
used to be." Ain't dat de troof.

	Noel

* https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.folklore.computers/-/5B41Uym6d4QJ

From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Tue Feb  3 12:42:34 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 10:42:34 -0800
Subject: Friden EC-130 Help
Message-ID: <016a01d03fe1$2daae3b0$8900ab10$@gmail.com>

Kyle, drlegendre and Jim,

Please keep sharing what you find out! I Just bought one of these machines,
to keep company to my two other mechanical Fridens. It hasn't arrived yet.
It was described as non-functional. So it looks like I will be asking
similar questions soon.

Marc

 

>  drlegendre  <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote

> Hi Kyle,

> While I certainly cannot claim any level of expertise in the matter, I do

> happen to have a functional EC-130 here [...]Likewise, I have no service
documentation for it. But if I can be of any

> assistance, so far as providing voltage / resistance / component readings,

> I'll try to do my best as time allows.

 

>> Kyle Owen < <mailto:kylevowen at gmail.com> kylevowen at gmail.com> wrote:

>> A friend of mine gave me a Friden EC-130

>> Pictures here:  <http://imgur.com/a/OjxCn> http://imgur.com/a/OjxCn

>> My understanding is that schematics are not available for the unit. Is
that

>> still correct? It wouldn't be a hard unit to reverse engineer; it's just
a

>> whole lot of components.

>> 

>> If anyone has any advice to offer, it would be much appreciated.

>> 

>> Kyle

 

 

 


From imp at bsdimp.com  Tue Feb  3 17:41:30 2015
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 16:41:30 -0700
Subject: Remember Coherent?
In-Reply-To: <20150203195942.2860E18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150203195942.2860E18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <51C0BB5E-4658-4022-A645-BF51E427D397@bsdimp.com>


> On Feb 3, 2015, at 12:59 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>> From: Liam Proven
> 
>> Well, as of last month, it's now FOSS.
> 
> Ah! If we hadn't lost him (sigh), DMR could now look at the code itself* to
> see if they ripped off Unix... :-)
> 
> Love this line from the intro to the documentation: "COHERENT is what UNIX
> used to be." Ain't dat de troof.
> 
> 	Noel
> 
> * https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.folklore.computers/-/5B41Uym6d4QJ

I?m mildly disappointed that the 8086 version wasn?t in this archive? I?m not
sure what the lift would be to recreate it. I?m also not sure it would be worth it
for my DEC Rainbow which just has serial port connectivity to the world?

Warner


From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Tue Feb  3 17:54:42 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 17:54:42 -0600
Subject: Remember Coherent?
In-Reply-To: <51C0BB5E-4658-4022-A645-BF51E427D397@bsdimp.com>
References: <20150203195942.2860E18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <51C0BB5E-4658-4022-A645-BF51E427D397@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <1F3DD357-5917-4B09-91EA-0C131969EAF4@gmail.com>


> On Feb 3, 2015, at 5:41 PM, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I?m mildly disappointed that the 8086 version wasn?t in this archive? I?m not
> sure what the lift would be to recreate it. I?m also not sure it would be worth it
> for my DEC Rainbow which just has serial port connectivity to the world?

I dunno, getting mail and uucp connectivity running from my rainbow to one of the pdp11s sounds like a lot of fun...


> 
> Warner
> 

From dfnr2 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 19:12:59 2015
From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 01:12:59 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Remember Coherent?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFXC0PX2WCeeSZjFVeiU+mpkZ=5BXVTrmntXDgdvk0qLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCFXC0PX2WCeeSZjFVeiU+mpkZ=5BXVTrmntXDgdvk0qLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <329315649.1878897.1423012379881.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

I remember it well. I bought version 3 around 1989 and ran in on my 286.? It was pretty amazing running something so much like Unix on my tiny home computer.? 

In order to "civilize" it a bit, I ported an Emacs-like editor called "elle", sz, rz, zip, unzip, and adventure.? I also ported Ken Almquists 'ash', which I called 'dash', adding command history and programmable command line editor (with vi and emacs modes).? I was amazed at what that little system could do, and at how complete an environment those guys at Mark Willarms put together from scratch.

I used it until December 1991 (guess why. . .)
I had the manual for many years afterward, even though I never really used it.? It was such a great well written reference, even without Coherent, it was just fun to keep.? I wish I still had it. . .
Dave
 

     On Monday, February 2, 2015 1:06 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
   
 

 I could never afford it & figured I wouldn't understand it if I did.
But it sounded really cool.

Well, as of last month, it's now FOSS.

http://www.nesssoftware.com/home/mwc/source.php

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

 
   

From other at oryx.us  Tue Feb  3 22:01:27 2015
From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2015 22:01:27 -0600
Subject: Remember Coherent?
In-Reply-To: <329315649.1878897.1423012379881.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAMTenCFXC0PX2WCeeSZjFVeiU+mpkZ=5BXVTrmntXDgdvk0qLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <329315649.1878897.1423012379881.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <54D19997.70402@oryx.us>

Hello Dave,

Are you aware that the "excellent" Coherent manual is available online in 
electronic format?

Its been posted here a couple of times since I have subscribed, but if you don't 
have it, I can repost it.

Jerry


On 02/ 3/15 07:12 PM, Dave wrote:
> I remember it well. I bought version 3 around 1989 and ran in on my 286.  It was pretty amazing running something so much like Unix on my tiny home computer.
>
> In order to "civilize" it a bit, I ported an Emacs-like editor called "elle", sz, rz, zip, unzip, and adventure.  I also ported Ken Almquists 'ash', which I called 'dash', adding command history and programmable command line editor (with vi and emacs modes).  I was amazed at what that little system could do, and at how complete an environment those guys at Mark Willarms put together from scratch.
>
> I used it until December 1991 (guess why. . .)
> I had the manual for many years afterward, even though I never really used it.  It was such a great well written reference, even without Coherent, it was just fun to keep.  I wish I still had it. . .
> Dave
>
>
>       On Monday, February 2, 2015 1:06 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>   I could never afford it & figured I wouldn't understand it if I did.
> But it sounded really cool.
>
> Well, as of last month, it's now FOSS.
>
> http://www.nesssoftware.com/home/mwc/source.php
>

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 03:32:26 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 10:32:26 +0100
Subject: Tape Drive Capstans
In-Reply-To: <026e01d03cba$c2424150$46c6c3f0$@net>
References: <01e501d03bf5$1b0ede90$512c9bb0$@net>
 <54CA9593.8080207@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1501291521170.16460@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <20150129124422.U15904@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCHGJ4+UpjfKLtd4bropDqBojVnsR3RaZkVtRXUi-5vZQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <026e01d03cba$c2424150$46c6c3f0$@net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCF5jw1kf0KNkvs93tD8xWPxxOLndhtFfERYCvNiYaxCNg@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 January 2015 at 19:29, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
>
> Technically there should be no out gassing at 0 Kelvin.... ;)


Ooh, good point. *Blush* :-)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From dfnr2 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  4 04:24:38 2015
From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 10:24:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Remember Coherent?
In-Reply-To: <54D19997.70402@oryx.us>
References: <54D19997.70402@oryx.us>
Message-ID: <1261376754.2010696.1423045478384.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>





Are you aware that the "excellent" Coherent manual is available online in 
electronic format?
Yes, and the source for it is included in the recently released sources as well.? But the paper book was fun to flip through in a way that browsing electronically does not quite reproduce (for me at least).? Still, it's nice to know it wasn't lost.
Dave


 
   

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Feb  4 07:39:56 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 07:39:56 -0600
Subject: Remember Coherent?
In-Reply-To: <1261376754.2010696.1423045478384.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <54D19997.70402@oryx.us>
 <1261376754.2010696.1423045478384.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004b01d04080$10db3f60$3291be20$@classiccmp.org>

I vaguely remember coherent from back in the day when it was on the market. A quick perusal of Wikipedia shows there was an early version for the PDP11. Has that version survived at the download link or is it just the PC version?

J 



From emu at e-bbes.com  Wed Feb  4 08:01:39 2015
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 15:01:39 +0100
Subject: Remember Coherent?
In-Reply-To: <004b01d04080$10db3f60$3291be20$@classiccmp.org>
References: <54D19997.70402@oryx.us>
 <1261376754.2010696.1423045478384.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <004b01d04080$10db3f60$3291be20$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20150204150139.lxdrjzzk8400s0k0@webmail.opentransfer.com>

Zitat von Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org>:

> I vaguely remember coherent from back in the day when it was on the   
> market. A quick perusal of Wikipedia shows there was an early   
> version for the PDP11. Has that version survived at the download   
> link or is it just the PC version?

Anybody looked in the download already?
I remember somebody porting it to 68000 back then.
Any chance the port is in the download?



From gerardcjat at free.fr  Wed Feb  4 08:03:43 2015
From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 15:03:43 +0100
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
Message-ID: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>


For an OLD PC  ( ISA slot )  obviously ....

Does this "beast" ever existed ??
Does anyone recall some manufacturer's name ??
Have I any chance to find one on Ebay or other at this time ??

Or is "DBIT" adapter the only way to go ?

---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
http://www.avast.com

From sales at elecplus.com  Wed Feb  4 08:24:14 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 08:24:14 -0600
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
In-Reply-To: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
References: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
Message-ID: <001a01d04086$408cd0b0$c1a67210$@com>

http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-disk-floppy-controllers/E-H/EVEREX-SYSTEMS-
INC-Two-MFM-ST506-ST412-EV-346-EV-3.html#.VNIrE53F-1A

I have an Everex EV-346 hard/floppy controller, new in the box.  Will that
help?

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of GerardCJAT
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 8:04 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER ???


For an OLD PC  ( ISA slot )  obviously ....

Does this "beast" ever existed ??
Does anyone recall some manufacturer's name ??
Have I any chance to find one on Ebay or other at this time ??

Or is "DBIT" adapter the only way to go ?

---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le
logiciel antivirus Avast.
http://www.avast.com



-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4800 / Virus Database: 4257/9056 - Release Date: 02/04/15



From ben at bensinclair.com  Wed Feb  4 08:40:22 2015
From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 14:40:22 +0000
Subject: Remember Coherent?
In-Reply-To: <004b01d04080$10db3f60$3291be20$@classiccmp.org>
References: <54D19997.70402@oryx.us>
 <1261376754.2010696.1423045478384.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <004b01d04080$10db3f60$3291be20$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <95531B12-C793-41BD-AA7F-75BBC7DAFE2D@bensinclair.com>

That was my first question as well! I haven?t found any info on the PDP-11 version yet.

While looking for PDP-11 info, I happened to read up on the interesting history of The Mark Williams Company. Apparently they were originally a soft drink company, which Robert Swartz moved into software in the 80?s. And, Robert Swartz is the father of Aaron Swartz!

Their soft drink, Dr. Enuf, is apparently still sold and is in the Cracker Barrel gift shops. I propose it to become the official soft drink of classic computing.

--
Ben Sinclair
ben at bensinclair.com

> On Feb 4, 2015, at 7:39 AM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I vaguely remember coherent from back in the day when it was on the market. A quick perusal of Wikipedia shows there was an early version for the PDP11. Has that version survived at the download link or is it just the PC version?
> 
> J 
> 
> 


From microfilm at microfilm.kscoxmail.com  Wed Feb  4 09:54:19 2015
From: microfilm at microfilm.kscoxmail.com (Shaun Halstead)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 09:54:19 -0600
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
In-Reply-To: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
References: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
Message-ID: <54D240AB.7020600@microfilm.kscoxmail.com>


On 02/04/2015 08:03 AM, GerardCJAT wrote:
> 
> For an OLD PC  ( ISA slot )  obviously ....
> 
> Does this "beast" ever existed ??
> Does anyone recall some manufacturer's name ??

  Flagstaff Engineering, of Flagstaff, Arizona, built an ISA interface and 8" floppy drive box.  We
had such a system running on a dual boot SCO Unix/DOS machine until about a dozen years ago.  I have
the drive and enclosure, but I'm having trouble finding the interface card or documentation.

--Shaun

From sales at elecplus.com  Wed Feb  4 10:17:25 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 10:17:25 -0600
Subject: SGI server
Message-ID: <00df01d04096$10543310$30fc9930$@com>

Not mine, not affiliated, if interested, please contact him directly.

 

SGI Origin 300 Server Cabinet Full Height $295

 

Robert at ptemail.biz

 

 

 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Feb  4 10:33:51 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 08:33:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
In-Reply-To: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
References: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
Message-ID: <20150204081602.F12902@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 4 Feb 2015, GerardCJAT wrote:
> For an OLD PC  ( ISA slot )  obviously ....
> Does this "beast" ever existed ??
Yes
> Does anyone recall some manufacturer's name ??
Yes
> Have I any chance to find one on Ebay or other at this time ??
Slim
> Or is "DBIT" adapter the only way to go ?
Do you mean the CABLE adapter (that also adds TG43)?  That adapts 34 pin
to 50 pin cabling, but does NOT provide any sort of FDC operation.


Do you need SD/FM?  Or will DD/MFM suffice?


For 8 bit (PC/5150, XT/5160) ISA:

Flagstaff Engineering marketed an 8" drive system for PC/5150.
It consisted of an OEM IBM 5150 FDC, or infringing clone, with
a few trace cuts and extensive green wire mods.
Doctor Marty reverse engineered the mod and converted a few FDCs.

Vista sold an FDC with 8" support.
Maynard sold an FDC with 8" support.
Talltree (JRAM/JLASER/etc.) sold an FDC with 8" support.
Did MicroSolutions (Uniform) Compaticard support 8"?
There were generic FDCs with 8" support.
Not all supported SD/FM


For 16 bit (5170/AT) ISA:

All of the above, and
almost any controller that supports "1.2M" will do 8"
The "1.2M" drive started its design life as an 8" drive cut
down to use 5.25" disks.  The early drives even had 50 pin cable.
Later drives had 34 pin cable.
THAT is where your DBIT adapter can help, if you can't make your own
cable.  (and, it adds TG43 support, which is not necessary for reading.

BUT, many/most of the "1.2M" controllers are hardwired for DD/MFM
(see David Dunfield's site for some info about SD/FM support)


Software is a separate issue.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com






From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com  Wed Feb  4 10:37:11 2015
From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 09:37:11 -0700
Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150204)
Message-ID: <CAM_jms=i4oRd0T9CYipP1ZOmz_vgMWYqUBgiC_UMk9vOX4Fayw@mail.gmail.com>

This time lets refer to some classic fictional computers used in movies.
Everyone probably knows about the HAL 9000 used in the movie 2001 a Space
Odyssey.

What was the name of HAL's sister computer in the movie 2010 Odyssey two?


That was a warm up question.  This one should be more difficult.

What was the designation of the computer in the movie WarGames and what
does it mean?


And finally,

As silly as it was the movie Hackers referred to the mainframe computer in
the movie as a Gibson.

Where did the term Gibson come from?




-- 
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb  4 10:45:30 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 08:45:30 -0800
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
In-Reply-To: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
References: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
Message-ID: <54D24CAA.2060903@sydex.com>

On 02/04/2015 06:03 AM, GerardCJAT wrote:
>
> For an OLD PC  ( ISA slot )  obviously ....
>
> Does this "beast" ever existed ??
> Does anyone recall some manufacturer's name ??
> Have I any chance to find one on Ebay or other at this time ??
>
> Or is "DBIT" adapter the only way to go ?

Of course there were/are!  All versions of the Microsoft Compaticard (I, 
II, IV) have 8-inch support, though I'd recommend only the IV, since, 
the I and II use a non-standard method of switching data rates. 
Microsoultions even sold 34-to-50 position adapters.

And really, that's all that's needed--a wiring change.  The CC manual 
even includes a call-out for the change.  I included a similar one in 
the 22Disk documentation.

The Sysgen Omnibridge explicitly supported 8" drives and the new XT-FDC 
project on Erik's Vintage Computer forum even features a 50-position 
connector.

In fact, if your FDC supports single-density (FM) modulation and 
high-density ("1.2M" and "1.44M" drive support), there's no reason why 
you need a separate floppy controller.   You can download Dave 
Dunfield's TestFDC program to test your system.

The DBIT widget is useful in that it includes an MCU that synthesizes 
the RWC/TG43 signal that some 8" drives need for writing, but not all 
do.  Microsolutions supplies this signal via a separate latch on the CC.

--Chuck


From nico at farumdata.dk  Wed Feb  4 10:58:57 2015
From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 17:58:57 +0100
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
References: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
 <54D24CAA.2060903@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <2B25181A465C4B2CB92A74CAB7E7BA04@NOTEBOOK>



> On 02/04/2015 06:03 AM, GerardCJAT wrote:
>>
>> For an OLD PC  ( ISA slot )  obviously ....
>>
>> Does this "beast" ever existed ??
>> Does anyone recall some manufacturer's name ??
>> Have I any chance to find one on Ebay or other at this time ??
>>
> Of course there were/are!  All versions of the Microsoft Compaticard (I, 
> II, IV) have 8-inch support, though I'd recommend only the IV, since, the 
> I and II use a non-standard method of switching data rates. Microsoultions 
> even sold 34-to-50 position adapters.

I can highly recommend the Compaticard IV. I had no problems creating a 
bootable 8" floppy for MS-DOS 3
/Nico 


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  4 11:00:24 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 18:00:24 +0100
Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150204)
In-Reply-To: <CAM_jms=i4oRd0T9CYipP1ZOmz_vgMWYqUBgiC_UMk9vOX4Fayw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM_jms=i4oRd0T9CYipP1ZOmz_vgMWYqUBgiC_UMk9vOX4Fayw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS71ECA42726207BFD4FE24863A0@phx.gbl>

I never saw the 2010 Odyssey ..,. I already fell asleep during the 2001 
movie :-/
War games, OTOH, I saw already several times. Great movie.
The big computer was WOPR - War Operations Planner Response (IIRC).

- Henk


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Doug Ingraham
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 5:37 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150204)

This time lets refer to some classic fictional computers used in movies.
Everyone probably knows about the HAL 9000 used in the movie 2001 a Space
Odyssey.

What was the name of HAL's sister computer in the movie 2010 Odyssey two?


That was a warm up question.  This one should be more difficult.

What was the designation of the computer in the movie WarGames and what
does it mean?


And finally,

As silly as it was the movie Hackers referred to the mainframe computer in
the movie as a Gibson.

Where did the term Gibson come from?




-- 
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175 


From cctalk at fahimi.net  Wed Feb  4 11:33:08 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 09:33:08 -0800
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
In-Reply-To: <54D24CAA.2060903@sydex.com>
References: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
 <54D24CAA.2060903@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <029201d040a0$a5ea38c0$f1beaa40$@net>

> The DBIT widget is useful in that it includes an MCU that synthesizes
> the RWC/TG43 signal that some 8" drives need for writing, but not all
> do.  Microsolutions supplies this signal via a separate latch on the
> CC.

Chuck,

So are you saying that with a CC IV you don't need the DBIT adapter, for
writing, and just need the 34pin to 50pin converter?

-Ali


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Feb  4 11:40:20 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed,  4 Feb 2015 12:40:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
Message-ID: <20150204174020.252AF18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So I've seen some references which say that the M8190-AB and -AC (w-o/w FPJ11
FPP chip) are 15 MHz "11/73" CPUs for QBUS use, and the M8190-AD and -AE
(w-o/w FPJ11) are 18 MHz "11/83-84" CPUs for UNIBUS use (via the KTJ11-B
convertor, of course). (Of course, the /83 is nominally QBUS, but let's ignore
that for the moment... :-)

(And I'm not even going to try to give the KDJ11- suffixes that go with
these... :-)

However, I'm wondering if this is correct... I have a CPU board out of a 11/84
(one owned by DEC, no less!) which says M8190-AB on the handles, but the clock
crystal says "18.432", and it has a 57-19400-09 J11 chip, which seems to be
the 18MHz version (the 15Mhz seems to be -04).

Comparing it to a 'stock' -AB, this one seems to have the same 74S472 PROMs
(6 along the lower left-hand edge), PALs (top center and lower left), etc.
But they also match the ones on a 'stock' -AE, too!

So clearly an -AB/AC _can_ be _upgraded_ to an -AD/-AE... but are there
actually any differences between an -AB/AC and an -AD/-AE, other than the
speed?

I don't have my /84 up yet, so I can't plug a stock -AB in and see if it
works, but I'm starting to get the impression that except for the speed of the
J11 (and the crystal), and whether or not it came with the FPJ11, all four of
these boards are otherwise identical. Whether it's a 73, 83 or 84 depends
entirely on whether it has PMI memory and the KTJ11-B UNIBUS converter (and
the correct backplane, for the latter, of course).

Anyone have an confirmation one way or the other? Thanks!

	Noel

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb  4 11:56:28 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 09:56:28 -0800
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
In-Reply-To: <029201d040a0$a5ea38c0$f1beaa40$@net>
References: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
 <54D24CAA.2060903@sydex.com> <029201d040a0$a5ea38c0$f1beaa40$@net>
Message-ID: <54D25D4C.1030803@sydex.com>

On 02/04/2015 09:33 AM, Ali wrote:
>> The DBIT widget is useful in that it includes an MCU that synthesizes
>> the RWC/TG43 signal that some 8" drives need for writing, but not all
>> do.  Microsolutions supplies this signal via a separate latch on the
>> CC.
>
> Chuck,
>
> So are you saying that with a CC IV you don't need the DBIT adapter, for
> writing, and just need the 34pin to 50pin converter?

Yup.   The wiring of the 34-to-50 position connector is also documented 
in the CC manual.

--Chuck



From captainkirk359 at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 12:17:34 2015
From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 13:17:34 -0500
Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150204)
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS71ECA42726207BFD4FE24863A0@phx.gbl>
References: <CAM_jms=i4oRd0T9CYipP1ZOmz_vgMWYqUBgiC_UMk9vOX4Fayw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DUB110-DS71ECA42726207BFD4FE24863A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAKUYOb1NzcxousKNdmFiSXdoaRDS93CDjCZ_=VTOxjxe1JL8CQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 February 2015 at 12:00, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I never saw the 2010 Odyssey ..,. I already fell asleep during the 2001
> movie :-/
I've seen both 2001 and 2010. (And read all four of the novels.) 2001
is a masterwork of cinematography but the book is kind of crap. 2010
is a... boringly generic piece of forgettable sci-fi, the book is more
interesting though.

2061 I've somewhat forgotten about, and 3001 was... well it was
definitely a thing.


> War games, OTOH, I saw already several times. Great movie.
> The big computer was WOPR - War Operations Planner Response (IIRC).
>
Never actually watched the movie, I'll admit. But I did recall the
name of the computer.



Since I didn't know the "correct" way to answer these trivia questions
(I only just got back onto the mailing list after it HCF'd last year),
I'll echo what I said in my private e-mail:

On 4 February 2015 at 11:43, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
<captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 1. SAL 9000
> 2. WOPR, "War Operation Plan Response"
> 3. I always heard it was a reference to quintessential cyberpunk
> author William Gibson.
>

I'm unsure if "the Gibson" is actually a reference to William Gibson
(of "Neuromancer" fame, among other works), but that's what I'd heard.


Cheers,
Christian

-- 
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 12:43:27 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 13:43:27 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
  Having gotten the 11/34 rig up to a good spec, I'm sufficiently excited
to tackle the 11/45.  It's been powered off since 2004, when I briefly
turned it on only to find a wild jumble of lights and that none of the
front panel switches or knobs did anything to the lights.  Couldn't get it
to run or deposit values or *anything*.  I therefore assumed it was badly
broken and so left it until now.  It has stayed perfectly high and dry but
has gone to extremes in temperature as the storage isn't climate controlled
(this is in western Pennsylvania).  And there's a lot of dust.

  I'm not going for museum perfection, but want it to be very presentable
(lobbying to keep it as my 'art' in the living room long term if it's
presentable enough :) and functional.

So I'm looking for tips on how to go about it?  I was thinking:

1) Truck machine to living room, note positions of all wires / boards.
Photograph, remove and clean dust from them.  Place on antistatic bench.

2) Thoroughly blow out dust and debris, vacuum backplane and wipe down
chassis and wires with damp cloth.

3) Map out desired hardware config: I have available two Fujitsu 160 disks,
three Fujitsu M2333K disks and two Fujitsu M2372K disks.  I need to decide
how to rack and cable at least two, possibly up to four of them as the 8"
ones have no mounting hardware.  Operational status on all is "hopeful."  I
have two Emulex SC21s and an SC41 as well as an unmarked Xylogics Unibus
SMD board.  I'm also tempted to mount an RX02 drive as I have a controller
and quite a mountain of floppies supposedly containing weird old stuff.  I
need to source an ethernet board and whatever cabling / bulkhead stuff
follows.  DZ11, its dist panel and a Diablo 630 printer would be nice, too.

4) This would also be a good time to broach the subject of whether or not
the capacitors need special love, or if that just adds more risk of
destroying something.  Those familiar, please chime in as the archive is
currently missing so I can't refer to the recent threads on this subject.
Datapoint: I didn't mess at all with power supply / caps on my 11/34, which
was stored right beside the '45 for the same timespan and it's running
great now.  Datapoint 2: with my amateur electronics skills / status,
there's admittedly some risk just having me poking around in there,
"learning" things :-\   Plus, I'm afraid of death from esoteric high
voltages that I hear are present in these old power supplies.  Is the 11/45
one of them?  In a nutshell, this analog / power stuff is FAR FROM my
forte; some hand-holding here would be most appreciated.

5) Insert an expendable Unibus module and power up; check & tune power.  I
need direction on how to go about this.  Also, the bottom H742A power
chassis isn't completely populated.  Not sure if that's acceptable, on
purpose or bad.


6)  Reassemble, tidying up issues like missing / loose screws, rubbing
cables, etc. along the way.


7) rt, 2.11BSD, rsx, rsts/e!   (mostly via vtserver -  I have a tu10 that I
could get in on this deal, but its roller rubber has turned into goo and
two cabinets in the living room is more than "pushing it."  Later date on
that puppy. )

Current module config starting from front of cabinet (yes, there are some
gaps and M9200 jumpers I don't mention, too):
M9301 + M787
M8114
M8115
M8112
M8113
M8100
M8101
M8102
M8103
M8104
M8105
M8106
M8108
M8107
M8109
M8110
g401
M7800 + M9200 jumper
H214
G231
G110
H214
G231
G110
H214
G231
G110
Unibus cable runs out to third party external memory chassis, "Monolithic
Systems Corp" Type MO v11/PDP11 P/N 300-0058-000, which is three quarters
populated.  If this memory is broken, I'm planning to use an M7891 instead
(is that OK?).
No Unibus termination after that.  Is that weird / bad?

Does this current config seem sound?  Is there a problem obvious just from
this description that would account for the unresponsive front panel?

Here's the power supply situation: There are two H742A power chassis.  Top
contains h744, h744, h744, h744, h745.  Bottom contains H745, H746, open,
H744, open.

big thx!
jake

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Wed Feb  4 12:58:01 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 10:58:01 -0800
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
In-Reply-To: <54D25D4C.1030803@sydex.com>
References: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
 <54D24CAA.2060903@sydex.com> <029201d040a0$a5ea38c0$f1beaa40$@net>
 <54D25D4C.1030803@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <029e01d040ac$81d029c0$85707d40$@net>

> > So are you saying that with a CC IV you don't need the DBIT adapter,
> > for writing, and just need the 34pin to 50pin converter?
> 
> Yup.   The wiring of the 34-to-50 position connector is also documented
> in the CC manual.
> 

Chuck,

I've seen the wiring info in the manual and I just looked through the PDF
version of the manual I have. I could not find any mention of TG43 in my
quick look through. Do you by any chance know where the info is? Thanks.

-Ali


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Feb  4 13:03:09 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 19:03:09 +0000
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B2E60@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> 
> 4) This would also be a good time to broach the subject of whether or not
> the capacitors need special love, or if that just adds more risk of
> destroying something.  Those familiar, please chime in as the archive is

My 11/45 which was working last year until I moved house (I haven't reassembled
it yet, or attempted to undo any damage caused by the movers) still has all the 
original capacitors in the PSU. 

I find this 'witch hunt' of capacitors curious. Yes, they do fail, but they are not the
only, or even most comon, thing to so so.

BUT!

There is a capacitor in the front section of the H742 PSU -- not in the regulator
'bricks' that, if it fails, causes ACLO and DCLO to pulse at power line frequency (or
probsbly twice that frequency). This really gives the 11/45 headaches, the microcode 
keeps on trying to handle the power failure and won't let you do anything else. So while
I would not replace any capacitors 'on spec' I would check that the ACLO and DCLO lines
are doing the right things.


> currently missing so I can't refer to the recent threads on this subject.
> Datapoint: I didn't mess at all with power supply / caps on my 11/34, which
> was stored right beside the '45 for the same timespan and it's running
> great now.  Datapoint 2: with my amateur electronics skills / status,
> there's admittedly some risk just having me poking around in there,
> "learning" things :-\   Plus, I'm afraid of death from esoteric high
> voltages that I hear are present in these old power supplies.  Is the 11/45
> one of them?  In a nutshell, this analog / power stuff is FAR FROM my

The 11/45 PSU is fairly friendly. There is, of course, mains inside, but there is a big
(looks to be about 1000VA) transformer in the front section, giving out lots of 
30V AC outputs. The regulator bricks are fed from 30V, so there are no lethal voltages
inside. But given that it's 30V at 10's of amps, there is enough power there to do damage. 
I have had transistors blown off the PCB when I had a nasty failure in one of the regulator
units.

> forte; some hand-holding here would be most appreciated.

I still can't comprehend how anyone can properly understand digital electronics and not
understand anlogue. But anyway..

The 11/45  power supply is a bit odd. Firstly there are multiple 5V rails, the regulators
could supply 25A each, so IIRC there are 2 for the CPU, one for the FPU (which I think you
have), one for the Unibus backplanes, etc. The upper PSU is supposed to be controlled by
the console switch, it powers the CPU and peripherals. The lower run is supposed to run
all the time, it powers the memory. No, it is not a problem if the lower PSU has empty slots,
these were for regulators for the MOS or bipolar memory in the CPU backplane. Don't
assume something has been taken out.

Another nasty... The front section of the PSU supplies ACLO, DCLO, LTC (line time clock) and
+15V. Or at least the upper PSU does. On the lower one, the +15V line is in fact grounded so
what is called 'ground' on that PSU becomes -15V. You need to look carefully at all the diagrams
in the printset.

The PSU should be checked with dummy loads (6V bulbs, for example), bearing in mind that with
several 5V lines you need to check all of them.

-tony


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  4 13:22:09 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 20:22:09 +0100
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
In-Reply-To: <20150204174020.252AF18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150204174020.252AF18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS104B396C01511868A6AF43863A0@phx.gbl>

Without any checking, just digging in my "grey cells", so I could be wrong 
...
The 11/84 has all of its memory "elsewhere", that is *not* on the CPU 
module.
The 11/94 has *all* memory that can be addressed *on* the CPU module.
So, the 11/94 has either 2MB or 4MB, what's installed on the module.
The performance gain of the 11/94 over the 11/84 is in fact the local 
memory.
If the 11/84 has 100% cache hits, it comes close to the 11/94. You could see
the 11/94 as an 11/84 with all memory as cache memory.
AFAIK, you cannot add memory to the 11/94 by adding a memory module
on the bus. The memory must be on the CPU module.

- Henk, PA8PDP


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Noel Chiappa
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 6:40 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards

So I've seen some references which say that the M8190-AB and -AC (w-o/w 
FPJ11
FPP chip) are 15 MHz "11/73" CPUs for QBUS use, and the M8190-AD and -AE
(w-o/w FPJ11) are 18 MHz "11/83-84" CPUs for UNIBUS use (via the KTJ11-B
convertor, of course). (Of course, the /83 is nominally QBUS, but let's 
ignore
that for the moment... :-)

(And I'm not even going to try to give the KDJ11- suffixes that go with
these... :-)

However, I'm wondering if this is correct... I have a CPU board out of a 
11/84
(one owned by DEC, no less!) which says M8190-AB on the handles, but the 
clock
crystal says "18.432", and it has a 57-19400-09 J11 chip, which seems to be
the 18MHz version (the 15Mhz seems to be -04).

Comparing it to a 'stock' -AB, this one seems to have the same 74S472 PROMs
(6 along the lower left-hand edge), PALs (top center and lower left), etc.
But they also match the ones on a 'stock' -AE, too!

So clearly an -AB/AC _can_ be _upgraded_ to an -AD/-AE... but are there
actually any differences between an -AB/AC and an -AD/-AE, other than the
speed?

I don't have my /84 up yet, so I can't plug a stock -AB in and see if it
works, but I'm starting to get the impression that except for the speed of 
the
J11 (and the crystal), and whether or not it came with the FPJ11, all four 
of
these boards are otherwise identical. Whether it's a 73, 83 or 84 depends
entirely on whether it has PMI memory and the KTJ11-B UNIBUS converter (and
the correct backplane, for the latter, of course).

Anyone have an confirmation one way or the other? Thanks!

Noel 


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  4 13:29:24 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 20:29:24 +0100
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS104B396C01511868A6AF43863A0@phx.gbl>
References: <20150204174020.252AF18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <DUB110-DS104B396C01511868A6AF43863A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS1617FAFB6714B3AAE557A4863A0@phx.gbl>

Oops,
that was not the asked question!
All I know about the /73 and /83 is the crystal, and the CPU "version" 
(-09).
Maybe a few PALs have to be a faster version, but I do not expect that.
The 15 MHz to 18 MHz is not that big of a difference.

Apologies for the previous post,
- Henk


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Henk Gooijen
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 8:22 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU 
cards

Without any checking, just digging in my "grey cells", so I could be wrong
...
The 11/84 has all of its memory "elsewhere", that is *not* on the CPU
module.
The 11/94 has *all* memory that can be addressed *on* the CPU module.
So, the 11/94 has either 2MB or 4MB, what's installed on the module.
The performance gain of the 11/94 over the 11/84 is in fact the local
memory.
If the 11/84 has 100% cache hits, it comes close to the 11/94. You could see
the 11/94 as an 11/84 with all memory as cache memory.
AFAIK, you cannot add memory to the 11/94 by adding a memory module
on the bus. The memory must be on the CPU module.

- Henk, PA8PDP


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Noel Chiappa
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 6:40 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards

So I've seen some references which say that the M8190-AB and -AC (w-o/w
FPJ11
FPP chip) are 15 MHz "11/73" CPUs for QBUS use, and the M8190-AD and -AE
(w-o/w FPJ11) are 18 MHz "11/83-84" CPUs for UNIBUS use (via the KTJ11-B
convertor, of course). (Of course, the /83 is nominally QBUS, but let's
ignore
that for the moment... :-)

(And I'm not even going to try to give the KDJ11- suffixes that go with
these... :-)

However, I'm wondering if this is correct... I have a CPU board out of a
11/84
(one owned by DEC, no less!) which says M8190-AB on the handles, but the
clock
crystal says "18.432", and it has a 57-19400-09 J11 chip, which seems to be
the 18MHz version (the 15Mhz seems to be -04).

Comparing it to a 'stock' -AB, this one seems to have the same 74S472 PROMs
(6 along the lower left-hand edge), PALs (top center and lower left), etc.
But they also match the ones on a 'stock' -AE, too!

So clearly an -AB/AC _can_ be _upgraded_ to an -AD/-AE... but are there
actually any differences between an -AB/AC and an -AD/-AE, other than the
speed?

I don't have my /84 up yet, so I can't plug a stock -AB in and see if it
works, but I'm starting to get the impression that except for the speed of
the
J11 (and the crystal), and whether or not it came with the FPJ11, all four
of
these boards are otherwise identical. Whether it's a 73, 83 or 84 depends
entirely on whether it has PMI memory and the KTJ11-B UNIBUS converter (and
the correct backplane, for the latter, of course).

Anyone have an confirmation one way or the other? Thanks!

Noel


From bqt at update.uu.se  Wed Feb  4 13:32:17 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 20:32:17 +0100
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS104B396C01511868A6AF43863A0@phx.gbl>
References: <20150204174020.252AF18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <DUB110-DS104B396C01511868A6AF43863A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <54D273C1.3010806@update.uu.se>

I think that is all correct, Henk, but Noel was asking about the 
differences between the various M8190 cards, which are all 11/73, 11/83, 
11/84 CPUs.

	Johnny

On 2015-02-04 20:22, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> Without any checking, just digging in my "grey cells", so I could be
> wrong ...
> The 11/84 has all of its memory "elsewhere", that is *not* on the CPU
> module.
> The 11/94 has *all* memory that can be addressed *on* the CPU module.
> So, the 11/94 has either 2MB or 4MB, what's installed on the module.
> The performance gain of the 11/94 over the 11/84 is in fact the local
> memory.
> If the 11/84 has 100% cache hits, it comes close to the 11/94. You could
> see
> the 11/94 as an 11/84 with all memory as cache memory.
> AFAIK, you cannot add memory to the 11/94 by adding a memory module
> on the bus. The memory must be on the CPU module.
>
> - Henk, PA8PDP
>
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Noel Chiappa
> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 6:40 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
>
> So I've seen some references which say that the M8190-AB and -AC (w-o/w
> FPJ11
> FPP chip) are 15 MHz "11/73" CPUs for QBUS use, and the M8190-AD and -AE
> (w-o/w FPJ11) are 18 MHz "11/83-84" CPUs for UNIBUS use (via the KTJ11-B
> convertor, of course). (Of course, the /83 is nominally QBUS, but let's
> ignore
> that for the moment... :-)
>
> (And I'm not even going to try to give the KDJ11- suffixes that go with
> these... :-)
>
> However, I'm wondering if this is correct... I have a CPU board out of a
> 11/84
> (one owned by DEC, no less!) which says M8190-AB on the handles, but the
> clock
> crystal says "18.432", and it has a 57-19400-09 J11 chip, which seems to be
> the 18MHz version (the 15Mhz seems to be -04).
>
> Comparing it to a 'stock' -AB, this one seems to have the same 74S472 PROMs
> (6 along the lower left-hand edge), PALs (top center and lower left), etc.
> But they also match the ones on a 'stock' -AE, too!
>
> So clearly an -AB/AC _can_ be _upgraded_ to an -AD/-AE... but are there
> actually any differences between an -AB/AC and an -AD/-AE, other than the
> speed?
>
> I don't have my /84 up yet, so I can't plug a stock -AB in and see if it
> works, but I'm starting to get the impression that except for the speed
> of the
> J11 (and the crystal), and whether or not it came with the FPJ11, all
> four of
> these boards are otherwise identical. Whether it's a 73, 83 or 84 depends
> entirely on whether it has PMI memory and the KTJ11-B UNIBUS converter (and
> the correct backplane, for the latter, of course).
>
> Anyone have an confirmation one way or the other? Thanks!
>
> Noel


From bqt at update.uu.se  Wed Feb  4 13:38:57 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 20:38:57 +0100
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS1617FAFB6714B3AAE557A4863A0@phx.gbl>
References: <20150204174020.252AF18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <DUB110-DS104B396C01511868A6AF43863A0@phx.gbl>
 <DUB110-DS1617FAFB6714B3AAE557A4863A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <54D27551.10305@update.uu.se>

Not a proper answer to Noel, but I've read that the FPA will not work in 
early CPU cards. Something wrong with the connections to the socket, I 
seem to recall (but it's just some impression from my reading).

Also, for some reason only a couple of variants are listed as usable in 
the 11/84. Might be some issues with detecting and handling the bus at 
the CPU in an 11/84 since the 11/84 usage of that bus differs from when 
it is used as an 11/83.

The 11/84 variant is pretty much a PMI bus all the way, but I seem to 
remember a couple of signals defined differently even in the 11/84 
compared to the 11/83.

And then of course, the J11 itself came in different variants with 
bugfixes. Not all J11 chips can even use the FPA.

ALl in all, that gives a lot of combinations. Some, I would suspect, 
would definitely be fixable by replacing some PAL.

	Johnny


On 2015-02-04 20:29, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> Oops,
> that was not the asked question!
> All I know about the /73 and /83 is the crystal, and the CPU "version"
> (-09).
> Maybe a few PALs have to be a faster version, but I do not expect that.
> The 15 MHz to 18 MHz is not that big of a difference.
>
> Apologies for the previous post,
> - Henk
>
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Henk Gooijen
> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 8:22 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU
> cards
>
> Without any checking, just digging in my "grey cells", so I could be wrong
> ...
> The 11/84 has all of its memory "elsewhere", that is *not* on the CPU
> module.
> The 11/94 has *all* memory that can be addressed *on* the CPU module.
> So, the 11/94 has either 2MB or 4MB, what's installed on the module.
> The performance gain of the 11/94 over the 11/84 is in fact the local
> memory.
> If the 11/84 has 100% cache hits, it comes close to the 11/94. You could
> see
> the 11/94 as an 11/84 with all memory as cache memory.
> AFAIK, you cannot add memory to the 11/94 by adding a memory module
> on the bus. The memory must be on the CPU module.
>
> - Henk, PA8PDP
>
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Noel Chiappa
> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 6:40 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
>
> So I've seen some references which say that the M8190-AB and -AC (w-o/w
> FPJ11
> FPP chip) are 15 MHz "11/73" CPUs for QBUS use, and the M8190-AD and -AE
> (w-o/w FPJ11) are 18 MHz "11/83-84" CPUs for UNIBUS use (via the KTJ11-B
> convertor, of course). (Of course, the /83 is nominally QBUS, but let's
> ignore
> that for the moment... :-)
>
> (And I'm not even going to try to give the KDJ11- suffixes that go with
> these... :-)
>
> However, I'm wondering if this is correct... I have a CPU board out of a
> 11/84
> (one owned by DEC, no less!) which says M8190-AB on the handles, but the
> clock
> crystal says "18.432", and it has a 57-19400-09 J11 chip, which seems to be
> the 18MHz version (the 15Mhz seems to be -04).
>
> Comparing it to a 'stock' -AB, this one seems to have the same 74S472 PROMs
> (6 along the lower left-hand edge), PALs (top center and lower left), etc.
> But they also match the ones on a 'stock' -AE, too!
>
> So clearly an -AB/AC _can_ be _upgraded_ to an -AD/-AE... but are there
> actually any differences between an -AB/AC and an -AD/-AE, other than the
> speed?
>
> I don't have my /84 up yet, so I can't plug a stock -AB in and see if it
> works, but I'm starting to get the impression that except for the speed of
> the
> J11 (and the crystal), and whether or not it came with the FPJ11, all four
> of
> these boards are otherwise identical. Whether it's a 73, 83 or 84 depends
> entirely on whether it has PMI memory and the KTJ11-B UNIBUS converter (and
> the correct backplane, for the latter, of course).
>
> Anyone have an confirmation one way or the other? Thanks!
>
> Noel
>


From chris at mainecoon.com  Wed Feb  4 13:50:22 2015
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 11:50:22 -0800
Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150204)
In-Reply-To: <CAM_jms=i4oRd0T9CYipP1ZOmz_vgMWYqUBgiC_UMk9vOX4Fayw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM_jms=i4oRd0T9CYipP1ZOmz_vgMWYqUBgiC_UMk9vOX4Fayw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46690865-E21C-42CF-B6BF-EDA31D4FC960@mainecoon.com>


On 4 Feb 2015, at 8:37, Doug Ingraham <dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com> wrote:

> What was the name of HAL's sister computer in the movie 2010 Odyssey two?

SAL, voiced by Candice Bergen.
  
> 
> That was a warm up question.  This one should be more difficult.
> 
> What was the designation of the computer in the movie WarGames and what
> does it mean?

War Operation Plan Response

> 
> Where did the term Gibson come from?

William Gibson, who coined the term ?Cyberspace? in his story ?Burning Chrome?.

--
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris at mainecoon.com	AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com	PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?"






From oltmansg at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 14:16:43 2015
From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 14:16:43 -0600
Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150204)
In-Reply-To: <CAM_jms=i4oRd0T9CYipP1ZOmz_vgMWYqUBgiC_UMk9vOX4Fayw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM_jms=i4oRd0T9CYipP1ZOmz_vgMWYqUBgiC_UMk9vOX4Fayw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1EFF5BB8-29E3-492C-869E-EA65AD3DCE64@gmail.com>

1. SAL
2. WOPR  - War Operations Planned Response
3. Not sure..after the guitar company?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 4, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Doug Ingraham <dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com> wrote:
> 
> This time lets refer to some classic fictional computers used in movies.
> Everyone probably knows about the HAL 9000 used in the movie 2001 a Space
> Odyssey.
> 
> What was the name of HAL's sister computer in the movie 2010 Odyssey two?
> 
> 
> That was a warm up question.  This one should be more difficult.
> 
> What was the designation of the computer in the movie WarGames and what
> does it mean?
> 
> 
> And finally,
> 
> As silly as it was the movie Hackers referred to the mainframe computer in
> the movie as a Gibson.
> 
> Where did the term Gibson come from?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Doug Ingraham
> PDP-8 SN 1175

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb  4 14:32:18 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 12:32:18 -0800
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
In-Reply-To: <029e01d040ac$81d029c0$85707d40$@net>
References: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
 <54D24CAA.2060903@sydex.com> <029201d040a0$a5ea38c0$f1beaa40$@net>
 <54D25D4C.1030803@sydex.com> <029e01d040ac$81d029c0$85707d40$@net>
Message-ID: <54D281D2.2030705@sydex.com>

TG43 is also sometimes called "RWC" for reduced write current.  On many 
later 8" drives, this is a NC.

--Chuck




On 02/04/2015 10:58 AM, Ali wrote:
>>> So are you saying that with a CC IV you don't need the DBIT adapter,
>>> for writing, and just need the 34pin to 50pin converter?
>>
>> Yup.   The wiring of the 34-to-50 position connector is also documented
>> in the CC manual.
>>
>
> Chuck,
>
> I've seen the wiring info in the manual and I just looked through the PDF
> version of the manual I have. I could not find any mention of TG43 in my
> quick look through. Do you by any chance know where the info is? Thanks.
>
> -Ali
>
>
>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Feb  4 14:45:07 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 12:45:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
In-Reply-To: <54D281D2.2030705@sydex.com>
References: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
 <54D24CAA.2060903@sydex.com>
 <029201d040a0$a5ea38c0$f1beaa40$@net> <54D25D4C.1030803@sydex.com>
 <029e01d040ac$81d029c0$85707d40$@net> <54D281D2.2030705@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150204123747.X12902@shell.lmi.net>

> > I've seen the wiring info in the manual and I just looked through the PDF
> > version of the manual I have. I could not find any mention of TG43 in my
> > quick look through. Do you by any chance know where the info is? Thanks.
On Wed, 4 Feb 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> TG43 is also sometimes called "RWC" for reduced write current.  On many
> later 8" drives, this is a NC.

Oversimplified:
On inner tracks on a constant speed drive, the data is closer together.
Therefore, the reliability is lower.
(Some variable speed drives will change speed and write less data
on inner tracks)

One effort to help a little is "write precompensation".  On inner
tracks, if adjacent flux transitions that would end up real close
together are written slightly out of position, slightly further
apart, it can help reduce the problem of flux transitions being
too close together.  As part of doing that, there is a signal
available called "TG43" ("track number greater than 43") to help
decide when to enable precomp.


It is NOT needed for reading, but is sometimes used to enable
precomp for WRITING.







From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Feb  4 14:52:50 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 20:52:50 +0000
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
In-Reply-To: <20150204123747.X12902@shell.lmi.net>
References: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
 <54D24CAA.2060903@sydex.com> <029201d040a0$a5ea38c0$f1beaa40$@net>
 <54D25D4C.1030803@sydex.com> <029e01d040ac$81d029c0$85707d40$@net>
 <54D281D2.2030705@sydex.com>,<20150204123747.X12902@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B2EDF@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> One effort to help a little is "write precompensation".  On inner
> tracks, if adjacent flux transitions that would end up real close
> together are written slightly out of position, slightly further
> apart, it can help reduce the problem of flux transitions being
> too close together.  As part of doing that, there is a signal
> available called "TG43" ("track number greater than 43") to help
> decide when to enable precomp.

In every 'normal' floppy disk system (read : ones using shugart SA400 or
SA800 type interfaces), write precompensation is done by the controller 
electronics, not the drive. So while an LSI controller chip may well have an
output to enable the precompensation electronics on the controller board
that would not be a reason to pass it to the drive.

On standard 8" drives, the TG43 signal on the interface connector does,
as Chuck said, reduce the write head current.

-tony

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb  4 15:13:33 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 13:13:33 -0800
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
In-Reply-To: <20150204123747.X12902@shell.lmi.net>
References: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
 <54D24CAA.2060903@sydex.com> <029201d040a0$a5ea38c0$f1beaa40$@net>
 <54D25D4C.1030803@sydex.com> <029e01d040ac$81d029c0$85707d40$@net>
 <54D281D2.2030705@sydex.com> <20150204123747.X12902@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <54D28B7D.1040509@sydex.com>

Well, Fred, not exactly--you're correct in that it's used for innter 
tracks, but RWC/TG43 is a signal INPUT to the drive.

The function is to reduce write current by about 20% to improve the 
readability of tracks 44-76.  It's not on all drives--the Shugardt
SA800, for example, doesn't have such a line.

The issue is one of "bit shifting".  When a transition is written close 
one already present, the tendency will be to "push" the already written 
transition away from the one being written.  This can lead to "bit 
crowding".  This effect can be seen if one has a controller, such as the 
Catweasel, which records a histogram of time between transitions.  Outer 
tracks tend to show nice clean frequency peaks with relatively empty 
"valleys" between them--that is, transition times fall in nice, neat 
"bins" with little overflow adjacent ones.  Go to the inner tracks and 
things are a lot more "fuzzy" statistically.

RWC/TG43 was an attempt on early controllers to mitigate this by 
lowering write current, particularly on FM-encoded disks.

Sometime along With MFM, the idea of "precompensation" came along.  This 
is done in the controller, not the drive.  The idea is that instead of 
spewing bits out of a shift register in the controller straight to the 
drive, one can run them through an extension of the shift register, so 
one can determine whether to advance or delay slightly the transition 
being recorded, based on what has been written and what will be written 
adjacent to the current bit.  This will cause the transitions upon 
reading to be closer to optimal.  You can still use the RWC/TG43 
facility on the drive, but the effect is far less pronounced when the 
controller-side precompensation takes place.

I hope this wasn't too confusing.  It can be a bit puzzling.

--Chuck

On 02/04/2015 12:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>> I've seen the wiring info in the manual and I just looked through the PDF
>>> version of the manual I have. I could not find any mention of TG43 in my
>>> quick look through. Do you by any chance know where the info is? Thanks.
> On Wed, 4 Feb 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> TG43 is also sometimes called "RWC" for reduced write current.  On many
>> later 8" drives, this is a NC.
>
> Oversimplified:
> On inner tracks on a constant speed drive, the data is closer together.
> Therefore, the reliability is lower.
> (Some variable speed drives will change speed and write less data
> on inner tracks)
>
> One effort to help a little is "write precompensation".  On inner
> tracks, if adjacent flux transitions that would end up real close
> together are written slightly out of position, slightly further
> apart, it can help reduce the problem of flux transitions being
> too close together.  As part of doing that, there is a signal
> available called "TG43" ("track number greater than 43") to help
> decide when to enable precomp.
>
>
> It is NOT needed for reading, but is sometimes used to enable
> precomp for WRITING.


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Feb  4 15:33:16 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 21:33:16 -0000
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B2E60@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B2E60@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <039201d040c2$3031fd80$9095f880$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony
duell
> Sent: 04 February 2015 19:03
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: RE: It's time to restore the 11/45.
> 
> >
> > 4) This would also be a good time to broach the subject of whether or
> > not the capacitors need special love, or if that just adds more risk
> > of destroying something.  Those familiar, please chime in as the
> > archive is
> 
> My 11/45 which was working last year until I moved house (I haven't
> reassembled it yet, or attempted to undo any damage caused by the movers)
> still has all the original capacitors in the PSU.
> 
> I find this 'witch hunt' of capacitors curious. Yes, they do fail, but
they are not
> the only, or even most comon, thing to so so.
> 
> BUT!
> 
> There is a capacitor in the front section of the H742 PSU -- not in the
regulator
> 'bricks' that, if it fails, causes ACLO and DCLO to pulse at power line
frequency
> (or probsbly twice that frequency). This really gives the 11/45 headaches,
the
> microcode keeps on trying to handle the power failure and won't let you do
> anything else. So while I would not replace any capacitors 'on spec' I
would
> check that the ACLO and DCLO lines are doing the right things.
> 
> 
> > currently missing so I can't refer to the recent threads on this
subject.
> > Datapoint: I didn't mess at all with power supply / caps on my 11/34,
which
> > was stored right beside the '45 for the same timespan and it's running
> > great now.  Datapoint 2: with my amateur electronics skills / status,
> > there's admittedly some risk just having me poking around in there,
> > "learning" things :-\   Plus, I'm afraid of death from esoteric high
> > voltages that I hear are present in these old power supplies.  Is the
11/45
> > one of them?  In a nutshell, this analog / power stuff is FAR FROM my
> 
> The 11/45 PSU is fairly friendly. There is, of course, mains inside, but
there is a
> big
> (looks to be about 1000VA) transformer in the front section, giving out
lots of
> 30V AC outputs. The regulator bricks are fed from 30V, so there are no
lethal
> voltages
> inside. But given that it's 30V at 10's of amps, there is enough power
there to
> do damage.
> I have had transistors blown off the PCB when I had a nasty failure in one
of the
> regulator
> units.
> 


Interesting. I bought an 11/45 about a year ago which I still need to look
at. I have been wondering about the PSU in particular and how to test it
before attempting to power the machine.

I am guessing I could test the transformer part fairly easily on its own,
without any of the bricks, and without loading it, just checking that the
outputs are all 30VAC. I haven't looked yet, but is it just a big
transformer?

Presumably I can then test each brick individually, with a suitable dummy
load, and to make testing on the bench simpler, I could feed it 30VAC from
my Variac rather than have to hulk the huge transformer part around.

Is there anything bad about my plan? (There must be, it is too simple :-))

Regards

Rob 


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 15:45:15 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 16:45:15 -0500
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
References: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
 <54D24CAA.2060903@sydex.com> <029201d040a0$a5ea38c0$f1beaa40$@net>
 <54D25D4C.1030803@sydex.com> <029e01d040ac$81d029c0$85707d40$@net>
 <54D281D2.2030705@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <24EF5F7EB11F4785BCFF6BECD2C8319E@310e2>

Is TG43 available on both the internal 34-pin and 
the external DC(DB)-37 connector on the 
CompatiCard? Some old posts suggest that it's only 
output externally, but the CC manual seems to 
treat both internal and external connections to an 
8" drive equally valid.

m


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: <General at classiccmp.org>; 
"Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER 
???


> TG43 is also sometimes called "RWC" for reduced 
> write current.  On many later 8" drives, this is 
> a NC.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>
> On 02/04/2015 10:58 AM, Ali wrote:
>>>> So are you saying that with a CC IV you don't 
>>>> need the DBIT adapter,
>>>> for writing, and just need the 34pin to 50pin 
>>>> converter?
>>>
>>> Yup.   The wiring of the 34-to-50 position 
>>> connector is also documented
>>> in the CC manual.
>>>
>>
>> Chuck,
>>
>> I've seen the wiring info in the manual and I 
>> just looked through the PDF
>> version of the manual I have. I could not find 
>> any mention of TG43 in my
>> quick look through. Do you by any chance know 
>> where the info is? Thanks.
>>
>> -Ali
>>
>>
>>
> 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Feb  4 16:01:21 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 14:01:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
In-Reply-To: <54D28B7D.1040509@sydex.com>
References: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
 <54D24CAA.2060903@sydex.com>
 <029201d040a0$a5ea38c0$f1beaa40$@net> <54D25D4C.1030803@sydex.com>
 <029e01d040ac$81d029c0$85707d40$@net> <54D281D2.2030705@sydex.com>
 <20150204123747.X12902@shell.lmi.net> <54D28B7D.1040509@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150204135803.L12902@shell.lmi.net>

Thanks!

I had assumed [incorrectly] that the reduced write current and the
bit-shifting were tied to each other.  But, instead, it's two
independent techniques for mitigating the same basic problem
when writing of inner tracks.



On Wed, 4 Feb 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> Well, Fred, not exactly--you're correct in that it's used for innter
> tracks, but RWC/TG43 is a signal INPUT to the drive.

From andy.holt at tesco.net  Wed Feb  4 16:24:31 2015
From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 22:24:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150204)
In-Reply-To: <CAM_jms=i4oRd0T9CYipP1ZOmz_vgMWYqUBgiC_UMk9vOX4Fayw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1828820717.1201941.1423088671244.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>

> 
> As silly as it was the movie Hackers referred to the mainframe computer in
> the movie as a Gibson.

> Where did the term Gibson come from?

A benchmark for commercial-type workload in the 1960s was called the "Gibson Mix"
(presumably after a Mr or Dr Gibson). It predates the Whetstone.
I can't remember whether CCTA ran it on our ICL1905E or the Honeywell L66 that replaced it.

From andy.holt at tesco.net  Wed Feb  4 16:30:08 2015
From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 22:30:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150204)
In-Reply-To: <1828820717.1201941.1423088671244.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <2087689763.1202002.1423089008982.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>

>>>>
> 
> As silly as it was the movie Hackers referred to the mainframe computer in
> the movie as a Gibson.

> Where did the term Gibson come from?

A benchmark for commercial-type workload in the 1960s was called the "Gibson Mix"
(presumably after a Mr or Dr Gibson). It predates the Whetstone.
I can't remember whether CCTA ran it on our ICL1905E or the Honeywell L66 that replaced it.
<<<<

Just looked it up on wiki ? my memory is a bit faulty - it was a benchmark for scientific workloads and dates from the late 50s.
But, yes, it was devised by a Jack Clark Gibson of IBM.

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb  4 16:50:48 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 14:50:48 -0800
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
In-Reply-To: <24EF5F7EB11F4785BCFF6BECD2C8319E@310e2>
References: <E69AB4BA72CB4F5BB9C161746693865B@medion>
 <54D24CAA.2060903@sydex.com> <029201d040a0$a5ea38c0$f1beaa40$@net>
 <54D25D4C.1030803@sydex.com> <029e01d040ac$81d029c0$85707d40$@net>
 <54D281D2.2030705@sydex.com> <24EF5F7EB11F4785BCFF6BECD2C8319E@310e2>
Message-ID: <54D2A248.20600@sydex.com>

According to my documentation, there are two programmable signals 
brought out on the 34-pin headers as well as the 37 pin D-sub.

Pin 2 on the 34-pin is connected to pin 3 (note D-sub numbering 
conventions as contrasted with 0.10" header conventions) on the DC37 
connector.  Pin 6 on the 34-pin header is connected to pin 5 on the DC37.

2 is specified as "Mode 1", which is normally used as a density-select 
on 5.25" drives, but is used as a RWC signal on 8" drives.  Pin 6 is 
specified as "Mode 2", which is NC on the 8-inch cabling.  Normally, pin 
6 is used to control 2.88M or 3-mode drives.

--Chuck


On 02/04/2015 01:45 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
> Is TG43 available on both the internal 34-pin and the external DC(DB)-37
> connector on the CompatiCard? Some old posts suggest that it's only
> output externally, but the CC manual seems to treat both internal and
> external connections to an 8" drive equally valid.
>
> m
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
> To: <General at classiccmp.org>; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and
> Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 3:32 PM
> Subject: Re: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER ???
>
>
>> TG43 is also sometimes called "RWC" for reduced write current.  On
>> many later 8" drives, this is a NC.
>>
>> --Chuck
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 02/04/2015 10:58 AM, Ali wrote:
>>>>> So are you saying that with a CC IV you don't need the DBIT adapter,
>>>>> for writing, and just need the 34pin to 50pin converter?
>>>>
>>>> Yup.   The wiring of the 34-to-50 position connector is also documented
>>>> in the CC manual.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Chuck,
>>>
>>> I've seen the wiring info in the manual and I just looked through the
>>> PDF
>>> version of the manual I have. I could not find any mention of TG43 in my
>>> quick look through. Do you by any chance know where the info is? Thanks.
>>>
>>> -Ali
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>


From simski at dds.nl  Wed Feb  4 04:05:47 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 11:05:47 +0100
Subject: Terak 8510 keyboard
Message-ID: <54D1EEFB.1070300@dds.nl>

Hello all

we have a fine specimen with extra floppy drive in our collection, but 
we lack a keyboard and cables. what type of keyboard was used? I can 
imagine that a standard keyboard controller chip was used so maybe a 
hacked together setup can be produced to boot the thing (we have media)
-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
hack42.nl computermuseum

From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Feb  4 12:10:05 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 12:10:05 -0600
Subject: Terak 8510 keyboard
In-Reply-To: <54D1EEFB.1070300@dds.nl>
References: <54D1EEFB.1070300@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <mailman.26.1423091149.1134.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 04:05 AM 2/4/2015, Simon Claessen wrote:
>we have a fine specimen with extra floppy drive in our collection, but we lack a keyboard and cables. what type of keyboard was used? I can imagine that a standard keyboard controller chip was used so maybe a hacked together setup can be produced to boot the thing (we have media)

Google "terak.8532-2.keyboard.specs.pdf" and you'll find the specs 
in the Bitsavers archive.  Eight bits parallel with strobe, in short.

- John


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Feb  4 15:12:57 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 13:12:57 -0800
Subject: Terak 8510 keyboard
In-Reply-To: <54D1EEFB.1070300@dds.nl>
References: <54D1EEFB.1070300@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <54D28B59.4010404@bitsavers.org>

On 2/4/15 2:05 AM, Simon Claessen wrote:
> what type of keyboard was used?

Keytronics
There are pictures of it and dumped firmware at www.bitsavers.org/pdf/terak/keyboard/



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Feb  4 16:57:38 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed,  4 Feb 2015 17:57:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: MSV11-D debugging question
Message-ID: <20150204225738.DF29F18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

Finally getting back to this:

    > From: Brent Hilpert

    >> Again, I have a sitation where a bit is stuck on, and I'm curious to
    >> see if anyone has any insight into which chip (of 3) might be causing
    >> it (in an attempt to not have to try replacing them at random :-).

    > (Are they 4116 memory chips in use?)

Yes.

    > a means to isolate which of the 3 points (ICs/pins) is the problem
    > might (not guaranteed) be:
    > ...
    > If the state is only faulty after one of the accesses it suggests the
    > according mem chip is the failure point. ... distinguish the accesses
    > to the upper and lower bank to try to isolate when the circuit enters
    > the faulty state, and see whether it's common to both banks or only one.

Thank you! Thank you!! Thank You!!! That worked a treat; found the bad chip
first time! Thanks again!

	Noel

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 17:52:45 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 18:52:45 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <039201d040c2$3031fd80$9095f880$@ntlworld.com>
References: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B2E60@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <039201d040c2$3031fd80$9095f880$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfDGSB8fX8n=1t_6kXTGc2a9mMsPYUOfBDFWzneGLeNSdA@mail.gmail.com>

My NASA EE buddy recommended working up an appropriate load from regular
household lightbulbs.  They won't light, naturally, but you can dial in
your load by simply choosing certain wattages and doing the math.

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony
> duell
> > Sent: 04 February 2015 19:03
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > Subject: RE: It's time to restore the 11/45.
> >
> > >
> > > 4) This would also be a good time to broach the subject of whether or
> > > not the capacitors need special love, or if that just adds more risk
> > > of destroying something.  Those familiar, please chime in as the
> > > archive is
> >
> > My 11/45 which was working last year until I moved house (I haven't
> > reassembled it yet, or attempted to undo any damage caused by the movers)
> > still has all the original capacitors in the PSU.
> >
> > I find this 'witch hunt' of capacitors curious. Yes, they do fail, but
> they are not
> > the only, or even most comon, thing to so so.
> >
> > BUT!
> >
> > There is a capacitor in the front section of the H742 PSU -- not in the
> regulator
> > 'bricks' that, if it fails, causes ACLO and DCLO to pulse at power line
> frequency
> > (or probsbly twice that frequency). This really gives the 11/45
> headaches,
> the
> > microcode keeps on trying to handle the power failure and won't let you
> do
> > anything else. So while I would not replace any capacitors 'on spec' I
> would
> > check that the ACLO and DCLO lines are doing the right things.
> >
> >
> > > currently missing so I can't refer to the recent threads on this
> subject.
> > > Datapoint: I didn't mess at all with power supply / caps on my 11/34,
> which
> > > was stored right beside the '45 for the same timespan and it's running
> > > great now.  Datapoint 2: with my amateur electronics skills / status,
> > > there's admittedly some risk just having me poking around in there,
> > > "learning" things :-\   Plus, I'm afraid of death from esoteric high
> > > voltages that I hear are present in these old power supplies.  Is the
> 11/45
> > > one of them?  In a nutshell, this analog / power stuff is FAR FROM my
> >
> > The 11/45 PSU is fairly friendly. There is, of course, mains inside, but
> there is a
> > big
> > (looks to be about 1000VA) transformer in the front section, giving out
> lots of
> > 30V AC outputs. The regulator bricks are fed from 30V, so there are no
> lethal
> > voltages
> > inside. But given that it's 30V at 10's of amps, there is enough power
> there to
> > do damage.
> > I have had transistors blown off the PCB when I had a nasty failure in
> one
> of the
> > regulator
> > units.
> >
>
>
> Interesting. I bought an 11/45 about a year ago which I still need to look
> at. I have been wondering about the PSU in particular and how to test it
> before attempting to power the machine.
>
> I am guessing I could test the transformer part fairly easily on its own,
> without any of the bricks, and without loading it, just checking that the
> outputs are all 30VAC. I haven't looked yet, but is it just a big
> transformer?
>
> Presumably I can then test each brick individually, with a suitable dummy
> load, and to make testing on the bench simpler, I could feed it 30VAC from
> my Variac rather than have to hulk the huge transformer part around.
>
> Is there anything bad about my plan? (There must be, it is too simple :-))
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
>

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 18:35:41 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 00:35:41 -0000
Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150204)
In-Reply-To: <2087689763.1202002.1423089008982.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
References: <1828820717.1201941.1423088671244.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <2087689763.1202002.1423089008982.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <05e101d040db$ac278130$04768390$@gmail.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ANDY
> HOLT
> Sent: 04 February 2015 22:30
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150204)
> 
> >>>>
> >
> > As silly as it was the movie Hackers referred to the mainframe
> > computer in the movie as a Gibson.
> 
> > Where did the term Gibson come from?
> 
> A benchmark for commercial-type workload in the 1960s was called the
> "Gibson Mix"
> (presumably after a Mr or Dr Gibson). It predates the Whetstone.
> I can't remember whether CCTA ran it on our ICL1905E or the Honeywell L66

Ah the joys of CCTA tests. I worked on two of those, one for a L66 to DPS300 upgrade at NERC Bidston, and one for an IBM4381 install at Nerc Wallingford...

> that replaced it.
> <<<<
> 
> Just looked it up on wiki ? my memory is a bit faulty - it was a benchmark for
> scientific workloads and dates from the late 50s.
> But, yes, it was devised by a Jack Clark Gibson of IBM.


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Feb  4 18:56:52 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed,  4 Feb 2015 19:56:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
Message-ID: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jacob Ritorto

    > My NASA EE buddy recommended working up an appropriate load from
    > regular household lightbulbs. They won't light, naturally, but you can
    > dial in your load by simply choosing certain wattages and doing the math.

Err, both tungsten and carbon filament incandescents have very different
resistance when hot (lit) and cold. To make it even more, they are of opposite
sign: with tungsten, the resistance increases as it heats up (a nice
stabilizing feedback), and with carbon, it goes the other way. So if you're
not running enough current to light the bulb, you can't use the printed watt
rating; you'll have to use an ohm-meter.

	Noel

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Wed Feb  4 20:10:59 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 02:10:59 +0000
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
In-Reply-To: <20150204174020.252AF18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150204174020.252AF18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54D2D133.5040400@dunnington.plus.com>

On 04/02/2015 17:40, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> So I've seen some references which say that the M8190-AB and -AC
> (w-o/w FPJ11 FPP chip) are 15 MHz "11/73" CPUs for QBUS use, and the
>  M8190-AD and -AE (w-o/w FPJ11) are 18 MHz "11/83-84" CPUs for UNIBUS
>  use (via the KTJ11-B convertor, of course). (Of course, the /83 is
> nominally QBUS, but let's ignore that for the moment... :-)

> However, I'm wondering if this is correct... I have a CPU board out
> of a 11/84 (one owned by DEC, no less!) which says M8190-AB on the
> handles, but the clock crystal says "18.432", and it has a
> 57-19400-09 J11 chip, which seems to be the 18MHz version (the 15Mhz
>  seems to be -04).

There were various revisions of the J11 chip, which was originally
designed to run rather faster (more than 20MHz) than early ones were
found to be capable of reliably.  So "slow" ones were clocked at 15MHz 
and sold as 11/73 boards, faster ones clocked at 18MHz and sold as 11/83 
(or later as /84 - there's no difference at all in the boards).  To 
further differentiate the two, DEC arranged 11/83s with PMI memory, and 
11/73s with normal QBus memory, but both boards are capable of running 
in either memory configuration.  Additionally, 11/83s normally had the 
FPA as standard.

Another variation comes about because bugs in early revisions of the J11
CPU and the corresponding gate arrays meant they didn't work properly
with the FPA.  But most 11/73 (15MHz) boards are OK.

> Whether it's a 73, 83 or 84 depends entirely on whether it has PMI
> memory and the KTJ11-B UNIBUS converter (and the correct backplane,
> for the latter, of course).

Correct.  And in fact if you run XXDP or any other DEC software that
tests for 73/83ness, you'll find the result depends entirely on where
the memory is, and not on anything else.  Also if you're lucky, and keep 
the system well inside the designed temperature range and loading, you 
can even upgrade the crystal oscillator on an 11/73.

As to the difference between the M8190 in an 11/83 and that in an 11/84, 
there is none.  But IIRC there's a difference in the way one signal is 
used on the backplane, and IIRC (again) the earliest 11/83 ROMs may not 
work properly in an 11/84.

-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 20:43:29 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 21:43:29 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>

wow, good catch, Noel. I'll pass this on to NASA ;)

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Jacob Ritorto
>
>     > My NASA EE buddy recommended working up an appropriate load from
>     > regular household lightbulbs. They won't light, naturally, but you
> can
>     > dial in your load by simply choosing certain wattages and doing the
> math.
>
> Err, both tungsten and carbon filament incandescents have very different
> resistance when hot (lit) and cold. To make it even more, they are of
> opposite
> sign: with tungsten, the resistance increases as it heats up (a nice
> stabilizing feedback), and with carbon, it goes the other way. So if you're
> not running enough current to light the bulb, you can't use the printed
> watt
> rating; you'll have to use an ohm-meter.
>
>         Noel
>

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed Feb  4 20:53:45 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 18:53:45 -0800
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
In-Reply-To: <54D2D133.5040400@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <20150204174020.252AF18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <54D2D133.5040400@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <6B91745E-750C-4930-B3FE-52F6971F7407@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-04, at 6:10 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> On 04/02/2015 17:40, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>> So I've seen some references which say that the M8190-AB and -AC
>> (w-o/w FPJ11 FPP chip) are 15 MHz "11/73" CPUs for QBUS use, and the
>> M8190-AD and -AE (w-o/w FPJ11) are 18 MHz "11/83-84" CPUs for UNIBUS
>> use (via the KTJ11-B convertor, of course). (Of course, the /83 is
>> nominally QBUS, but let's ignore that for the moment... :-)
> 
>> However, I'm wondering if this is correct... I have a CPU board out
>> of a 11/84 (one owned by DEC, no less!) which says M8190-AB on the
>> handles, but the clock crystal says "18.432", and it has a
>> 57-19400-09 J11 chip, which seems to be the 18MHz version (the 15Mhz
>> seems to be -04).
> 
> There were various revisions of the J11 chip, which was originally
> designed to run rather faster (more than 20MHz) than early ones were
> found to be capable of reliably.  So "slow" ones were clocked at 15MHz and sold as 11/73 boards, faster ones clocked at 18MHz and sold as 11/83 (or later as /84 - there's no difference at all in the boards).  To further differentiate the two, DEC arranged 11/83s with PMI memory, and 11/73s with normal QBus memory, but both boards are capable of running in either memory configuration.  Additionally, 11/83s normally had the FPA as standard.

This is all interesting, does anyone have a reference/source for the J11 part # suffix vs. clock speed?

I was wondering about J11 clock speeds a few months ago, mostly out of curiousity, while working on a little project,
(leaving aside clock speed, PDP11 geeks might find it mildly amusing):

	http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/pdp11hack/index.html

Notice the link in there to an article by Bob Supnik that refers to clock speeds down in the 3-5 MHz range. I wonder what's going on there - if what Bob is saying is accurate how did this chip design ever reach 15/18/20MHz?

The J11 I have has a suffix of -08, and 1987 date code.


From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Feb  4 21:00:59 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 21:00:59 -0600
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D2DCEB.1060104@pico-systems.com>

On 02/04/2015 12:43 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> Hi,
>    Having gotten the 11/34 rig up to a good spec, I'm sufficiently excited
> to tackle the 11/45.  It's been powered off since 2004, when I briefly
> turned it on only to find a wild jumble of lights and that none of the
> front panel switches or knobs did anything to the lights.  Couldn't get it
> to run or deposit values or *anything*.  I therefore assumed it was badly
> broken and so left it until now.  It has stayed perfectly high and dry but
> has gone to extremes in temperature as the storage isn't climate controlled
> (this is in western Pennsylvania).  And there's a lot of dust.
>
>
The 11/45 has a row of little step-down regulator modules, 
all plugged in with
those horrible AMP Mate-n-Lock connectors.  We often had bad 
contacts on
those and they would sometimes burn the connector housings 
or char the
ends of the wires.  That was all about 1980, I can't imagine 
they've improved
with age.  I think you may have more trouble with these than 
anything else
in the machine.

You will probably also have problems with all the fans.  I 
replaced the lights in
our console with LEDs.

As for a dead console, if the ACOK signal is indicating "not 
ok" then the console
probably will be frozen.

Jon

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed Feb  4 21:01:19 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 19:01:19 -0800
Subject: MSV11-D debugging question
In-Reply-To: <20150204225738.DF29F18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150204225738.DF29F18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <B70B3ACF-12BC-4639-83FE-EFA67385B68B@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-04, at 2:57 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> Finally getting back to this:
> 
>> From: Brent Hilpert

>>> Again, I have a sitation where a bit is stuck on, and I'm curious to
>>> see if anyone has any insight into which chip (of 3) might be causing
>>> it (in an attempt to not have to try replacing them at random :-).
> 
>> (Are they 4116 memory chips in use?)
> 
> Yes.
> 
>> a means to isolate which of the 3 points (ICs/pins) is the problem
>> might (not guaranteed) be:
>> ...
>> If the state is only faulty after one of the accesses it suggests the
>> according mem chip is the failure point. ... distinguish the accesses
>> to the upper and lower bank to try to isolate when the circuit enters
>> the faulty state, and see whether it's common to both banks or only one.
> 
> Thank you! Thank you!! Thank You!!! That worked a treat; found the bad chip
> first time! Thanks again!

Thanks for the update, nice to know it worked out.

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb  4 21:02:36 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 19:02:36 -0800
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D2DD4C.7090403@sydex.com>

A pretty good dummy load is a globar resistor in a bucket of mineral 
oil.  Remember the Heathkit "Cantenna"?  Basically a big carbon 
resistor; still made by Kanthal-Globar today.  If you don't need a 
non-inductive load, a bunch of plain old wirewound power resistors, 
suitably cooled will do.

--Chuck



On 02/04/2015 06:43 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> wow, good catch, Noel. I'll pass this on to NASA ;)
>
> On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>      > From: Jacob Ritorto
>>
>>      > My NASA EE buddy recommended working up an appropriate load from
>>      > regular household lightbulbs. They won't light, naturally, but you
>> can
>>      > dial in your load by simply choosing certain wattages and doing the
>> math.
>>
>> Err, both tungsten and carbon filament incandescents have very different
>> resistance when hot (lit) and cold. To make it even more, they are of
>> opposite
>> sign: with tungsten, the resistance increases as it heats up (a nice
>> stabilizing feedback), and with carbon, it goes the other way. So if you're
>> not running enough current to light the bulb, you can't use the printed
>> watt
>> rating; you'll have to use an ohm-meter.
>>
>>          Noel
>>
>
>


From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 21:08:01 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 22:08:01 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <54D2DCEB.1060104@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2DCEB.1060104@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfC7ABwDC2yxX+gyXrN6w=w6d=z=fssX1EUKRqwxHVdocA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
>
> The 11/45 has a row of little step-down regulator modules, all plugged in
> with
> those horrible AMP Mate-n-Lock connectors.  We often had bad contacts on
> those and they would sometimes burn the connector housings or char the
> ends of the wires.  That was all about 1980, I can't imagine they've
> improved
> with age.  I think you may have more trouble with these than anything else
> in the machine.


I wonder if spraying out with crc contact cleaner and a nice slathering of
dielectric grease would help.

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Wed Feb  4 21:09:48 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 22:09:48 -0500
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
In-Reply-To: <20150204174020.252AF18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150204174020.252AF18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54D2DEFC.8040604@compsys.to>

 >Noel Chiappa wrote:

>So I've seen some references which say that the M8190-AB and -AC (w-o/w FPJ11
>FPP chip) are 15 MHz "11/73" CPUs for QBUS use, and the M8190-AD and -AE
>(w-o/w FPJ11) are 18 MHz "11/83-84" CPUs for UNIBUS use (via the KTJ11-B
>convertor, of course). (Of course, the /83 is nominally QBUS, but let's ignore
>that for the moment... :-)
>
>(And I'm not even going to try to give the KDJ11- suffixes that go with
>these... :-)
>
>However, I'm wondering if this is correct... I have a CPU board out of a 11/84
>(one owned by DEC, no less!) which says M8190-AB on the handles, but the clock
>crystal says "18.432", and it has a 57-19400-09 J11 chip, which seems to be
>the 18MHz version (the 15Mhz seems to be -04).
>
>Comparing it to a 'stock' -AB, this one seems to have the same 74S472 PROMs
>(6 along the lower left-hand edge), PALs (top center and lower left), etc.
>But they also match the ones on a 'stock' -AE, too!
>
>So clearly an -AB/AC _can_ be _upgraded_ to an -AD/-AE... but are there
>actually any differences between an -AB/AC and an -AD/-AE, other than the
>speed?
>
>I don't have my /84 up yet, so I can't plug a stock -AB in and see if it
>works, but I'm starting to get the impression that except for the speed of the
>J11 (and the crystal), and whether or not it came with the FPJ11, all four of
>these boards are otherwise identical. Whether it's a 73, 83 or 84 depends
>entirely on whether it has PMI memory and the KTJ11-B UNIBUS converter (and
>the correct backplane, for the latter, of course).
>
>Anyone have an confirmation one way or the other? Thanks!
>
Short summary:  The M8190-AE is used in BOTH the PDP-11/83 and the 
PDP-11/84.
The crystal used is 18 MHz.  The latest revisions of both the CPU and 
the FPU must
be used to ensure that there are no floating point instruction errors.  
The FPU chip is
standard with the M8190-AE.

Longer explanation:  The PMI memory used in the PDP-11/84 is 
sufficiently different
from the PMI memory used in the PDP-11/83 that the magic smoke might be 
released
if the incorrect PMI memory is used.  The MSV11-JB (1 MB) and MSV11-JC 
(2 MB)
are used in the PDP-11/84.  The MSV11-JD (1 MB) and the MSV11-JE (2 MB) are
used in the PDP-11/83.  In addition, for at least the PDP-11/83, the PMI 
memory must
be placed into the backplane ahead of the CPU for the memory to function 
as PMI
memory.  That may be the only position allowed for the memory for the 
PDP-11/84.
I seem to remember that when two memory boards are used, they should be 
the same.
And for the Qbus, if the PMI memory is placed into the backplane 
following the CPU
(the normal position for the PDP-11/73), then the memory functions as 
standard non-PMI
memory.  Finally, most M8190-AA, M8190-AB and M8190-AC boards (PDP-11/73)
with the 15 MHz crystal will support using the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE 
boards both
above and below the CPU.  If used above, they will function as PMI 
memory (as noted
by the RT-11 show command) and the system will also gain the extra 
speed.  If used below
the CPU, they memory functions as normal Qbus memory.

Speed Difference Between M8190-AC and M8190-AE:  When the PMI memory is 
below
the CPU on the M8190-AC and there is a 15 MHz crystal, the raw speed of 
the M8190-AE
with PMI memory above the CPU is about 33% faster.  If the PMI memory is 
placed above
both the M8190-AC and the M8190-AE, the raw speed of the M8190-AE is 
about 13%
faster.  By simple arithmetic, I conclude that placing the PMI memory 
above the CPU on the
M8190-AC adds about 20% to the raw speed.  The speed tests were done 
about 15 years
ago and with only done to obtain a ball park figure.  I compared the 
time is took for BINCOM
to compare a 7000 block VM: disk against itself, so no disk access was 
involved except to
bring BINCOM into memory and execute.


If I left anything out, please remind me.

Jerome Fine

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 21:44:48 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 19:44:48 -0800
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
In-Reply-To: <54D2DEFC.8040604@compsys.to>
References: <20150204174020.252AF18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <54D2DEFC.8040604@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJwKeD8-pYf3PU7WM1pWNDQO_us5bkokGGc6VOwSgg9Gg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
>
> Longer explanation:  The PMI memory used in the PDP-11/84 is sufficiently
> different
> from the PMI memory used in the PDP-11/83 that the magic smoke might be
> released
> if the incorrect PMI memory is used.  The MSV11-JB (1 MB) and MSV11-JC (2
> MB)
> are used in the PDP-11/84.  The MSV11-JD (1 MB) and the MSV11-JE (2 MB) are
> used in the PDP-11/83.

The MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE are documented as being compatible with both
the PDP-11/84 and Q-bus systems. The documented restriction is that
the MSV11-JB and MSV11-JC are only compatible with PDP-11/84 systems
and incompatible with Q-bus systems.

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/oemMicronotes.pdf

uNote # 028
MSV11-Q/M/J MEMORY COMPARISONS

MSV11-J
-------
The MSV11-J has four versions, the MSV11-JB and the MSV11-JC which are
used in the PDP-11/84 UNIBUS systems and the MSV11-JD and the MSV11-JE
are used in either the MicroPDP-11/83 Q-bus systems, or the PDP-11/84
UNIBUS systems. All four modules use ECC memory for error correction,
as well as using 256K bit MOS RAM parts on either a half for fully
populated quad size module.

NOTE:
-----
NONE OF THE FOUR MSV11-J MODULES CAN BE PLACED IN A Q/Q BACKPLANE
SLOT. IF THIS IS ATTEMPTED PERMANENT DAMAGE WILL BE DONE TO THE BOARDS
AND TO THE SYSTEM.

The MSV11-JB (M8637-BA) is a half populated quad size PMI memory
module containing 1MB of memory. The second version of the MSV11-J is
the MSV11-JC (M8637-CA), this is a fully populated MSV11-JB quad size
PMI memory module containing 2MB of memory. These two module can not
be used in a Q-bus system due to gate array incompatibilities, and can
only be used in the PDP-11/84 systems which use the UNIBUS/PMI bus
interface (KTJ11-A). The third version of the MSV11-J is the MSV11-JD
(M8637-DA) which is a half populated quad size PMI memory module
containing 1MB of memory. The last version of the MSV11-J is the
MSV11-JE, (M8637-EA) which is a fully populated MSV11-JD quad size PMI
memory module containing 2MB of memory. These last two modules can be
used with either the MicroPDP-11/83 system which uses the Q-bus/PMI
bus interface or the PDP-11/84 system which was mentioned above.

Although the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE are PMI memories they can be used
in two other Q-bus configurations.
(more details follow...)

From evan at snarc.net  Wed Feb  4 22:54:56 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 23:54:56 -0500
Subject: VCF East online ticketing
Message-ID: <54D2F7A0.4090907@snarc.net>

VCF East online ticketing is up and running:

http://www.vintage.org/2015/east/


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Feb  4 23:18:33 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 22:18:33 -0700
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/4/2015 7:43 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> wow, good catch, Noel. I'll pass this on to NASA ;)
>
I wondered who still used carbon filament bulbs.
Ben.


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Feb  4 23:28:05 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 22:28:05 -0700
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <54D2FF65.4070301@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/4/2015 10:18 PM, ben wrote:
> carbon filament bulbs
You can buy them here!
http://www.rejuvenation.com/

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb  4 23:39:24 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 21:39:24 -0800
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>

On 02/04/2015 09:18 PM, ben wrote:
> On 2/4/2015 7:43 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
>> wow, good catch, Noel. I'll pass this on to NASA ;)
>>
> I wondered who still used carbon filament bulbs.
> Ben.

Well, Ferrowatt still makes the antique carbon filament lamps:

http://www.ferrowatt.com/light-bulbsLight

And you can still get them from Rejuvination Lighting:

http://www.rejuvenation.com/catalog/categories/lighting/bulbs/reproduction-bulbs

Personally, I worry a bit about LED lamps supplanting the incandescents. 
  In my home, I have several custom fixtures that rely on the look of 
the clear bulbs.  An LED lamp, not even a fake filament one, isn't going 
to look right.

I've gone shopping for fixtures and am disgusted with the "made in 
China" looks of some.

--Chuck



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 23:46:22 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 00:46:22 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dd4rrcD-jRfnjygmjh75TaMho8qa87D4H_H5mscd9vCZA@mail.gmail.com>

> Well, Ferrowatt still makes the antique carbon filament lamps:
>
> http://www.ferrowatt.com/light-bulbsLight
>
> And you can still get them from Rejuvination Lighting:
>
> http://www.rejuvenation.com/catalog/categories/lighting/bulbs/reproduction-bulbs

The weird thing is that original carbon filament bulbs cost about the
same amount as the repros.

In the light bulb collecting world, original, run of the mill 100 plus
year old Edison based bulbs are called "burners", because they can be
used without guilt. They really are super common, especially the ones
in the lower voltage tiers (107 and 97 Volts are common, I think). Not
so when you get into the non-Edison bulbs, of course.

--
Will

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Feb  5 00:08:36 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 06:08:36 +0000
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <039201d040c2$3031fd80$9095f880$@ntlworld.com>
References: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B2E60@EXMBX16.thus.corp>,
 <039201d040c2$3031fd80$9095f880$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B2F9D@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> Interesting. I bought an 11/45 about a year ago which I still need to look
> at. I have been wondering about the PSU in particular and how to test it
> before attempting to power the machine.
> 
> I am guessing I could test the transformer part fairly easily on its own,
> without any of the bricks, and without loading it, just checking that the
> outputs are all 30VAC. I haven't looked yet, but is it just a big
> transformer?

The front section of the PSU is the big mains transformer and a PCB 
with the +15V supply, ACLO, DCLO, LTC circuitry on it. You can 
disconnect this and test the transformer on its own. For 230V 
mains the 115V fans (throught the PSU and CPU) run off the
transformer primary as an autotransformer.

> 
> Presumably I can then test each brick individually, with a suitable dummy
> load, and to make testing on the bench simpler, I could feed it 30VAC from

You can. The pinouts are not the same in all cases (but are in the printset and
IIRC on the bricks themselves). The -15V brick needs a +15V DC input as well, 
but that is at minimal current and not hard to provide.

> my Variac rather than have to hulk the huge transformer part around.

Bad idea. A plain Variac does not provide isolation from the mains so you 
are actually now working on mains-connected circuitry (read : dangerous and
you can't clip a 'scope on it). The input voltage is not that cricitcal (I think it can
be as low as 20V) and doesn't have to be AC. I think 30V DC from a bench supply
would work.

One very useful thing I made up was a cable with an 8 pin mate-n-lock
connector on each end. I use it to run the bricks outside the PSU chassis 
-- although they lose the cooling fan blast, they do not overheat for short
periods on dummy load (they are switching regulators anyway, so they run
quite cool). I then sit the brick I am testing on top of the CPU (pulled out 
from the rack). Of course the problem is finding the connectors.

> 
> Is there anything bad about my plan? (There must be, it is too simple :-))

See above...

-tony

From useddec at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 01:45:14 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 01:45:14 -0600
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuN72GPeXNHGw_sKMOPLDDP1OTZerXDVUBBtRUCaP3kuHg@mail.gmail.com>

You mentioned a G401, which I think is bipolar memory. There could be 4 of
these and 2 control boards. These are not needed and you might want to pull
them to make trouble  shooting easier.

Also I would be careful with them. They used to be expensive if you needed
to replace them.

The 45 and 70 share some boards, and there are 2 different backplanes/
board sets for each.

It sounds like you have the power supplies covered.

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi,
>   Having gotten the 11/34 rig up to a good spec, I'm sufficiently excited
> to tackle the 11/45.  It's been powered off since 2004, when I briefly
> turned it on only to find a wild jumble of lights and that none of the
> front panel switches or knobs did anything to the lights.  Couldn't get it
> to run or deposit values or *anything*.  I therefore assumed it was badly
> broken and so left it until now.  It has stayed perfectly high and dry but
> has gone to extremes in temperature as the storage isn't climate controlled
> (this is in western Pennsylvania).  And there's a lot of dust.
>
>   I'm not going for museum perfection, but want it to be very presentable
> (lobbying to keep it as my 'art' in the living room long term if it's
> presentable enough :) and functional.
>
> So I'm looking for tips on how to go about it?  I was thinking:
>
> 1) Truck machine to living room, note positions of all wires / boards.
> Photograph, remove and clean dust from them.  Place on antistatic bench.
>
> 2) Thoroughly blow out dust and debris, vacuum backplane and wipe down
> chassis and wires with damp cloth.
>
> 3) Map out desired hardware config: I have available two Fujitsu 160 disks,
> three Fujitsu M2333K disks and two Fujitsu M2372K disks.  I need to decide
> how to rack and cable at least two, possibly up to four of them as the 8"
> ones have no mounting hardware.  Operational status on all is "hopeful."  I
> have two Emulex SC21s and an SC41 as well as an unmarked Xylogics Unibus
> SMD board.  I'm also tempted to mount an RX02 drive as I have a controller
> and quite a mountain of floppies supposedly containing weird old stuff.  I
> need to source an ethernet board and whatever cabling / bulkhead stuff
> follows.  DZ11, its dist panel and a Diablo 630 printer would be nice, too.
>
> 4) This would also be a good time to broach the subject of whether or not
> the capacitors need special love, or if that just adds more risk of
> destroying something.  Those familiar, please chime in as the archive is
> currently missing so I can't refer to the recent threads on this subject.
> Datapoint: I didn't mess at all with power supply / caps on my 11/34, which
> was stored right beside the '45 for the same timespan and it's running
> great now.  Datapoint 2: with my amateur electronics skills / status,
> there's admittedly some risk just having me poking around in there,
> "learning" things :-\   Plus, I'm afraid of death from esoteric high
> voltages that I hear are present in these old power supplies.  Is the 11/45
> one of them?  In a nutshell, this analog / power stuff is FAR FROM my
> forte; some hand-holding here would be most appreciated.
>
> 5) Insert an expendable Unibus module and power up; check & tune power.  I
> need direction on how to go about this.  Also, the bottom H742A power
> chassis isn't completely populated.  Not sure if that's acceptable, on
> purpose or bad.
>
>
> 6)  Reassemble, tidying up issues like missing / loose screws, rubbing
> cables, etc. along the way.
>
>
> 7) rt, 2.11BSD, rsx, rsts/e!   (mostly via vtserver -  I have a tu10 that I
> could get in on this deal, but its roller rubber has turned into goo and
> two cabinets in the living room is more than "pushing it."  Later date on
> that puppy. )
>
> Current module config starting from front of cabinet (yes, there are some
> gaps and M9200 jumpers I don't mention, too):
> M9301 + M787
> M8114
> M8115
> M8112
> M8113
> M8100
> M8101
> M8102
> M8103
> M8104
> M8105
> M8106
> M8108
> M8107
> M8109
> M8110
> g401
> M7800 + M9200 jumper
> H214
> G231
> G110
> H214
> G231
> G110
> H214
> G231
> G110
> Unibus cable runs out to third party external memory chassis, "Monolithic
> Systems Corp" Type MO v11/PDP11 P/N 300-0058-000, which is three quarters
> populated.  If this memory is broken, I'm planning to use an M7891 instead
> (is that OK?).
> No Unibus termination after that.  Is that weird / bad?
>
> Does this current config seem sound?  Is there a problem obvious just from
> this description that would account for the unresponsive front panel?
>
> Here's the power supply situation: There are two H742A power chassis.  Top
> contains h744, h744, h744, h744, h745.  Bottom contains H745, H746, open,
> H744, open.
>
> big thx!
> jake
>

From tiggerlasv at aim.com  Thu Feb  5 03:20:07 2015
From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (Tim Thompson)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 04:20:07 -0500
Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150204)
Message-ID: <8D20F3C11015FF0-A3C-18FED@webmail-vm153.sysops.aol.com>




>> Where did the term Gibson come from?
> William Gibson, who coined the term ?Cyberspace? in his story ?Burning Chrome?.


World-of-Warcraft players might recognize a certain quest, called "Hacking the Wibson".

No doubt a play on the above.

;-)




T


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  5 06:44:26 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  5 Feb 2015 07:44:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
Message-ID: <20150205124426.199B718C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So I'm debugging a dead PDP-11/23 board (M8186). The first thing I check is
the clock; specifically the output of the first stage buffer-inverter (pin 16
of E4, a 74S240, upper right corner of page 2 of the prints), which is
distributed to a number of places. Nada. Totally flat-lined. So I checked the
input (pin 4), and it's sitting at about 2V. Also flat-lined. This does not
seem good... :-)

So here's my question: what's the likely fault here? The only thing upstream
of that gate is the 13MHz crystal itself. So the fault has to be either the
crystal or the S240 (which seems to be some sort of octal 3-state inverting
buffer). Any guesses as to which?

As usual, thanks in advance for any help!

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  5 07:10:24 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  5 Feb 2015 08:10:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
Message-ID: <20150205131024.8775618C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Henk Gooijen

    > Maybe a few PALs have to be a faster version, but I do not expect that.
    > The 15 MHz to 18 MHz is not that big of a difference.

I did wonder about that, but they boards use parts from a number of different
chip companies (both the PALs, and the PROMs), so since I don't know how to
read those parts for speed variants, I couldn't say.


    > From: Johnny Billquist

    > The 11/84 variant is pretty much a PMI bus all the way, but I seem to
    > remember a couple of signals defined differently even in the 11/84
    > compared to the 11/83.

If you run across where you saw that, I'd be curious. The 84's use is, as you
point out, different, since it includes the CPU<->UNIBUS adapter protocol for
UNIBUS cycles. But I would have assumed that it was a plain superset of the
83's (not that I have read much about 11/83's... :-).


    > From: Jerome H. Fine

    > The MSV11-JB (1 MB) and MSV11-JC (2 MB) are used in the PDP-11/84. The
    > MSV11-JD (1 MB) and the MSV11-JE (2 MB) are used in the PDP-11/83.

Err, not sure this is correct: I got an 11/84 with an MSV11-JD in it. As
someone pointed out in a later message, the difference between the B/C and
D/E is that the B/C only work as PMI memories, their QBUS functionality has
some issues (IIRC, something to do with QBUS block transfers not working
correctly).

    > In addition, for at least the PDP-11/83, the PMI memory must be placed
    > into the backplane ahead of the CPU for the memory to function as PMI
    > memory. That may be the only position allowed for the memory for the
    > PDP-11/84.

The 11/84 backplane has two special Q22/CD slots after the processor slot
which the memory goes in, with the CD sections wired to through-connect the
PMI pins.

I have this sneaking suspicion that the Q22 portions of those two slots aren't
_real_ QBUS slots (so you can't plug a QBUS device into them if you aren't
using them for memory :-), because I suspect they didn't run BIAK and BDMG to
those slots, but rather piped them directly to the UNIBUS adapter slot. My
reasoning for that is that if you don't plug in a memory card in one of those
slots, you don't have to plug in a grant continuity card, so.... Anyway, I
have a spare 11/84 backplane, and one day I'll get around to poking at it with
an ohmmeter to verify that suspicion.

    > I seem to remember that when two memory boards are used, they should be
    > the same.

Really? That would surprise me.

	Noel

From bqt at update.uu.se  Thu Feb  5 07:59:18 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 14:59:18 +0100
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
In-Reply-To: <20150205131024.8775618C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150205131024.8775618C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54D37736.50108@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-05 14:10, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Henk Gooijen
>
>      > Maybe a few PALs have to be a faster version, but I do not expect that.
>      > The 15 MHz to 18 MHz is not that big of a difference.
>
> I did wonder about that, but they boards use parts from a number of different
> chip companies (both the PALs, and the PROMs), so since I don't know how to
> read those parts for speed variants, I couldn't say.

I also would not expect the frequency to be a problem. However, as the 
Qbus/PMI differs from the 11/84 CPU bus, there can be chips that don't 
work correctly in one or the other.

>      > From: Johnny Billquist
>
>      > The 11/84 variant is pretty much a PMI bus all the way, but I seem to
>      > remember a couple of signals defined differently even in the 11/84
>      > compared to the 11/83.
>
> If you run across where you saw that, I'd be curious. The 84's use is, as you
> point out, different, since it includes the CPU<->UNIBUS adapter protocol for
> UNIBUS cycles. But I would have assumed that it was a plain superset of the
> 83's (not that I have read much about 11/83's... :-).

I actually know where I read up on that. The 11/84 system manual 
documents the CPU bus, including differences.

Check 
http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/dec/pdp11/1184/EK-1184E-TM-001_Dec87.pdf, 
chapter 2.2, which both documents the PMI bus, and in which way it 
changes when it sits in an 11/84.

I might have also read some other manuals that give me information, but 
this was the quickest I could find right now.

One obvious difference, by the way, is the fact that when you have a 
Qbus system, memory must sit to the right (top of) the CPU in order to 
use the PMI bus, while in an 11/84, the memory sits to the left (below) 
the CPU, while still using a modified PMI protocol.

>      > From: Jerome H. Fine
>
>      > The MSV11-JB (1 MB) and MSV11-JC (2 MB) are used in the PDP-11/84. The
>      > MSV11-JD (1 MB) and the MSV11-JE (2 MB) are used in the PDP-11/83.
>
> Err, not sure this is correct: I got an 11/84 with an MSV11-JD in it. As
> someone pointed out in a later message, the difference between the B/C and
> D/E is that the B/C only work as PMI memories, their QBUS functionality has
> some issues (IIRC, something to do with QBUS block transfers not working
> correctly).

As other have pointed out, Jerome is not correct.

>      > In addition, for at least the PDP-11/83, the PMI memory must be placed
>      > into the backplane ahead of the CPU for the memory to function as PMI
>      > memory. That may be the only position allowed for the memory for the
>      > PDP-11/84.
>
> The 11/84 backplane has two special Q22/CD slots after the processor slot
> which the memory goes in, with the CD sections wired to through-connect the
> PMI pins.

Right. The 11/84 backplane is wired differently. The CPU goes in the 
first slot in an 11/84 system.
And slots 2 and 3 are not Q-CD slots.

> I have this sneaking suspicion that the Q22 portions of those two slots aren't
> _real_ QBUS slots (so you can't plug a QBUS device into them if you aren't
> using them for memory :-), because I suspect they didn't run BIAK and BDMG to
> those slots, but rather piped them directly to the UNIBUS adapter slot. My
> reasoning for that is that if you don't plug in a memory card in one of those
> slots, you don't have to plug in a grant continuity card, so.... Anyway, I
> have a spare 11/84 backplane, and one day I'll get around to poking at it with
> an ohmmeter to verify that suspicion.

Correct. They are *not* qbus. Don't even try plugging any Qbus cards in 
there.

>      > I seem to remember that when two memory boards are used, they should be
>      > the same.
>
> Really? That would surprise me.

Not true. You can put a two meg and a one meg card into the system 
together. Done that in the past. Works just fine.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Thu Feb  5 08:00:46 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 14:00:46 +0000
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
In-Reply-To: <20150205131024.8775618C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150205131024.8775618C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54D3778E.3010700@dunnington.plus.com>

On 05/02/2015 13:10, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> The 11/84 backplane has two special Q22/CD slots after the processor slot
> which the memory goes in, with the CD sections wired to through-connect the
> PMI pins.
>
> I have this sneaking suspicion that the Q22 portions of those two slots aren't
> _real_ QBUS slots (so you can't plug a QBUS device into them if you aren't
> using them for memory :-), because I suspect they didn't run BIAK and BDMG to
> those slots, but rather piped them directly to the UNIBUS adapter slot. My
> reasoning for that is that if you don't plug in a memory card in one of those
> slots, you don't have to plug in a grant continuity card, so....

But you're supposed to plug in a Minimum Load card, aren't you?  I 
wonder if those slots would work for a non-DMA device.

>      > I seem to remember that when two memory boards are used, they should be
>      > the same.
>
> Really? That would surprise me.

I don't believe that's true.  It's certainly not true in an 11/73 or 
11/83, and I suspect the idea comes from one of the 11/84 manuals, which 
only mentions one type of card (half- or fully-populated).

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

From bqt at update.uu.se  Thu Feb  5 08:22:28 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 15:22:28 +0100
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
In-Reply-To: <54D3778E.3010700@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <20150205131024.8775618C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <54D3778E.3010700@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <54D37CA4.4040304@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-05 15:00, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> On 05/02/2015 13:10, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>> The 11/84 backplane has two special Q22/CD slots after the processor slot
>> which the memory goes in, with the CD sections wired to
>> through-connect the
>> PMI pins.
>>
>> I have this sneaking suspicion that the Q22 portions of those two
>> slots aren't
>> _real_ QBUS slots (so you can't plug a QBUS device into them if you
>> aren't
>> using them for memory :-), because I suspect they didn't run BIAK and
>> BDMG to
>> those slots, but rather piped them directly to the UNIBUS adapter
>> slot. My
>> reasoning for that is that if you don't plug in a memory card in one
>> of those
>> slots, you don't have to plug in a grant continuity card, so....
>
> But you're supposed to plug in a Minimum Load card, aren't you?  I
> wonder if those slots would work for a non-DMA device.

Yes, and no.
You should plug in a MLM if you haven't fully populated the slots.
They are not wired up as Qbus slots.

>>      > I seem to remember that when two memory boards are used, they
>> should be
>>      > the same.
>>
>> Really? That would surprise me.
>
> I don't believe that's true.  It's certainly not true in an 11/73 or
> 11/83, and I suspect the idea comes from one of the 11/84 manuals, which
> only mentions one type of card (half- or fully-populated).

Yup.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 08:32:31 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 09:32:31 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuN72GPeXNHGw_sKMOPLDDP1OTZerXDVUBBtRUCaP3kuHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuN72GPeXNHGw_sKMOPLDDP1OTZerXDVUBBtRUCaP3kuHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfDXXOd8zyVJ-rsnLKXp-jR8DpJNLqHrDT-3Jq49vwbE6g@mail.gmail.com>

  I've been reading through the 11/45 manuals and it seems these machines
are far more complex than I had imagined.  Can anyone understand and
explain the unibus a / unibus b concept?

 Should I eliminate all this fancy bipolar and core memory and just use an
m7891?  If I did, would it be on the fastbus, unibus a or unibus b and
would it even matter?



On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 2:45 AM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> You mentioned a G401, which I think is bipolar memory. There could be 4 of
> these and 2 control boards. These are not needed and you might want to pull
> them to make trouble  shooting easier.
>
> Also I would be careful with them. They used to be expensive if you needed
> to replace them.
>
> The 45 and 70 share some boards, and there are 2 different backplanes/
> board sets for each.
>
> It sounds like you have the power supplies covered.
>
> On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >   Having gotten the 11/34 rig up to a good spec, I'm sufficiently excited
> > to tackle the 11/45.  It's been powered off since 2004, when I briefly
> > turned it on only to find a wild jumble of lights and that none of the
> > front panel switches or knobs did anything to the lights.  Couldn't get
> it
> > to run or deposit values or *anything*.  I therefore assumed it was badly
> > broken and so left it until now.  It has stayed perfectly high and dry
> but
> > has gone to extremes in temperature as the storage isn't climate
> controlled
> > (this is in western Pennsylvania).  And there's a lot of dust.
> >
> >   I'm not going for museum perfection, but want it to be very presentable
> > (lobbying to keep it as my 'art' in the living room long term if it's
> > presentable enough :) and functional.
> >
> > So I'm looking for tips on how to go about it?  I was thinking:
> >
> > 1) Truck machine to living room, note positions of all wires / boards.
> > Photograph, remove and clean dust from them.  Place on antistatic bench.
> >
> > 2) Thoroughly blow out dust and debris, vacuum backplane and wipe down
> > chassis and wires with damp cloth.
> >
> > 3) Map out desired hardware config: I have available two Fujitsu 160
> disks,
> > three Fujitsu M2333K disks and two Fujitsu M2372K disks.  I need to
> decide
> > how to rack and cable at least two, possibly up to four of them as the 8"
> > ones have no mounting hardware.  Operational status on all is
> "hopeful."  I
> > have two Emulex SC21s and an SC41 as well as an unmarked Xylogics Unibus
> > SMD board.  I'm also tempted to mount an RX02 drive as I have a
> controller
> > and quite a mountain of floppies supposedly containing weird old stuff.
> I
> > need to source an ethernet board and whatever cabling / bulkhead stuff
> > follows.  DZ11, its dist panel and a Diablo 630 printer would be nice,
> too.
> >
> > 4) This would also be a good time to broach the subject of whether or not
> > the capacitors need special love, or if that just adds more risk of
> > destroying something.  Those familiar, please chime in as the archive is
> > currently missing so I can't refer to the recent threads on this subject.
> > Datapoint: I didn't mess at all with power supply / caps on my 11/34,
> which
> > was stored right beside the '45 for the same timespan and it's running
> > great now.  Datapoint 2: with my amateur electronics skills / status,
> > there's admittedly some risk just having me poking around in there,
> > "learning" things :-\   Plus, I'm afraid of death from esoteric high
> > voltages that I hear are present in these old power supplies.  Is the
> 11/45
> > one of them?  In a nutshell, this analog / power stuff is FAR FROM my
> > forte; some hand-holding here would be most appreciated.
> >
> > 5) Insert an expendable Unibus module and power up; check & tune power.
> I
> > need direction on how to go about this.  Also, the bottom H742A power
> > chassis isn't completely populated.  Not sure if that's acceptable, on
> > purpose or bad.
> >
> >
> > 6)  Reassemble, tidying up issues like missing / loose screws, rubbing
> > cables, etc. along the way.
> >
> >
> > 7) rt, 2.11BSD, rsx, rsts/e!   (mostly via vtserver -  I have a tu10
> that I
> > could get in on this deal, but its roller rubber has turned into goo and
> > two cabinets in the living room is more than "pushing it."  Later date on
> > that puppy. )
> >
> > Current module config starting from front of cabinet (yes, there are some
> > gaps and M9200 jumpers I don't mention, too):
> > M9301 + M787
> > M8114
> > M8115
> > M8112
> > M8113
> > M8100
> > M8101
> > M8102
> > M8103
> > M8104
> > M8105
> > M8106
> > M8108
> > M8107
> > M8109
> > M8110
> > g401
> > M7800 + M9200 jumper
> > H214
> > G231
> > G110
> > H214
> > G231
> > G110
> > H214
> > G231
> > G110
> > Unibus cable runs out to third party external memory chassis, "Monolithic
> > Systems Corp" Type MO v11/PDP11 P/N 300-0058-000, which is three quarters
> > populated.  If this memory is broken, I'm planning to use an M7891
> instead
> > (is that OK?).
> > No Unibus termination after that.  Is that weird / bad?
> >
> > Does this current config seem sound?  Is there a problem obvious just
> from
> > this description that would account for the unresponsive front panel?
> >
> > Here's the power supply situation: There are two H742A power chassis.
> Top
> > contains h744, h744, h744, h744, h745.  Bottom contains H745, H746, open,
> > H744, open.
> >
> > big thx!
> > jake
> >
>

From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com  Thu Feb  5 09:26:33 2015
From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 08:26:33 -0700
Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150204)
In-Reply-To: <05e101d040db$ac278130$04768390$@gmail.com>
References: <1828820717.1201941.1423088671244.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <2087689763.1202002.1423089008982.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <05e101d040db$ac278130$04768390$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM_jmsmS5y=vMrwNFD6OvCcUf3qRFVnJhBiM-6ttAbZhP+k2gQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 5:35 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > A benchmark for commercial-type workload in the 1960s was called the
> > "Gibson Mix"
> > (presumably after a Mr or Dr Gibson). It predates the Whetstone.
> > I can't remember whether CCTA ran it on our ICL1905E or the Honeywell L66
>
> Ah the joys of CCTA tests. I worked on two of those, one for a L66 to
> DPS300 upgrade at NERC Bidston, and one for an IBM4381 install at Nerc
> Wallingford...
>
> > that replaced it.
> > <<<<
> >
> > Just looked it up on wiki ? my memory is a bit faulty - it was a
> benchmark for
> > scientific workloads and dates from the late 50s.
> > But, yes, it was devised by a Jack Clark Gibson of IBM.
>

This was not a possible answer I was familiar with but I like it.



-- 
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Feb  5 09:35:04 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 15:35:04 +0000
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfDXXOd8zyVJ-rsnLKXp-jR8DpJNLqHrDT-3Jq49vwbE6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuN72GPeXNHGw_sKMOPLDDP1OTZerXDVUBBtRUCaP3kuHg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAHYQbfDXXOd8zyVJ-rsnLKXp-jR8DpJNLqHrDT-3Jq49vwbE6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B306F@EXMBX16.thus.corp>


>   I've been reading through the 11/45 manuals and it seems these machines
> are far more complex than I had imagined.  Can anyone understand and
> explain the unibus a / unibus b concept?

This is something I ought to figure out sometime too. AFAIK, it is only significant
if you have the special 11/45 memory boards (MOS or bipolar) in the CPU backplane.

For most applications (read : Anything you or I is going to do at the start), you 
jumper the 2 Unibuses together with an M9200 in A/B of slots 26 and 27 of the 
CPU backplane. This M9200 is just a narrower version of the M920, you can 
probably drill out the rivets and remove the handle of an M920 to make one. I think
I did the reverse at one point. 

If you do this, you can have standard Unibus memory boards on the Unibus, but they
don't go in the CPU backplane. I remember modifying a 4 slot backplane to have an MUD
slot (before I had even heard of an MUD slot) and fitting a 3rd party MOS RAM board.
> 
>  Should I eliminate all this fancy bipolar and core memory and just use an
> m7891?  If I did, would it be on the fastbus, unibus a or unibus b and
> would it even matter?

AFAIK, if you do that you have one bus, Unibus, and it works fine. 

-tony


From js at cimmeri.com  Thu Feb  5 09:56:52 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 10:56:52 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dd4rrcD-jRfnjygmjh75TaMho8qa87D4H_H5mscd9vCZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <CANij+dd4rrcD-jRfnjygmjh75TaMho8qa87D4H_H5mscd9vCZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D392C4.7010007@cimmeri.com>



On 2/5/2015 12:46 AM, William Donzelli 
wrote:
>> Well, Ferrowatt still makes the antique carbon filament lamps:
>>
>> http://www.ferrowatt.com/light-bulbsLight
>>
>> And you can still get them from Rejuvination Lighting:
>>
>> http://www.rejuvenation.com/catalog/categories/lighting/bulbs/reproduction-bulbs
> The weird thing is that original carbon filament bulbs cost about the
> same amount as the repros.
>
> In the light bulb collecting world, original, run of the mill 100 plus
> year old Edison based bulbs are called "burners", because they can be
> used without guilt. They really are super common, especially the ones
> in the lower voltage tiers (107 and 97 Volts are common, I think). Not
> so when you get into the non-Edison bulbs, of course.
>
> --
> Will

What do you mean by, "without guilt" ?   
How can "burners" be used without this 
guilt?

Thank you-
-John

From bbrown at harpercollege.edu  Thu Feb  5 09:59:27 2015
From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 15:59:27 +0000
Subject: Prime?
Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>

I've heard something about a prime emulator (to run primos, premix etc)..  does anyone know any info on where it is and how to get ahold of it?

Anyone know of any actual prime hardware out there?

Thank you!
-Bob

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 10:10:08 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 11:10:08 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <54D392C4.7010007@cimmeri.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <CANij+dd4rrcD-jRfnjygmjh75TaMho8qa87D4H_H5mscd9vCZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D392C4.7010007@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dehh0x49tMtkj=sTMVs2cngiCNa0rqkNUFdMKL+LNFG=Q@mail.gmail.com>

> What do you mean by, "without guilt" ?   How can "burners" be used without
> this guilt?

You do not have to feel guilty when you use a "burner" and it burns
out. There are a zillion of them left as replacements, and (almost) no
bulb collector will think less of you. It is kind of like scrapping
out P3 systems today, compared to scrapping out an original 5170 AT or
something.

Burning (basically using the bulb in everyday service, just to
clarify) other types of 100 year old bulbs, like ones from Edison
competition, is not the same.

--
Will

From evan at snarc.net  Thu Feb  5 10:08:56 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 11:08:56 -0500
Subject: Prime?
In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
Message-ID: <54D39598.2010103@snarc.net>


> Anyone know of any actual prime hardware out there?

By "out there" do you mean among collectors or still in use?

List member Ian Primus has a good amount of Prime hardware.

MARCH computer museum here in NJ has a Prime 6550.

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Feb  5 10:10:20 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 11:10:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Personally, I worry a bit about LED lamps supplanting the
> incandescents.

Me too - though for a different reason: a (tungsten) incandescent bulb
is an extremely useful thing when working on small appliances.  Hook it
up in series with the mains and shorts in the appliance (a) don't do
any damage and (b) are obvious when the bulb goes full brightness.  (Of
course, the bulb has to be sized appropriately for the appliance's
normal draw; a 50W bulb will false-positive when testing an iron. :-)

And then there are people who use them as heating elements in (eg)
wood-drying kilns.  And I'm sure there are plenty of other applications
I haven't heard/thought of.

Perhaps fortunately, it appears that here, at least, incandescents
aren't completely banned, just vanilla 100W ones.  (I am, though,
somewhat worried about this being the camel's nose.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  5 10:15:12 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  5 Feb 2015 11:15:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
Message-ID: <20150205161512.5211818C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jacob Ritorto

    > Can anyone understand and explain the unibus a / unibus b concept?

I've never personally worked on a machine with them separate, but the picture
on pg. 15 of the 11/45 Processor Handbook (1971 edition), and accompanying
text, should make what's going on pretty clear.

You have the 'normal' UNIBUS ("UNIBUS 1" they call it), controlled by the
11/45 CPU, on which regular memory, devices, etc live. The CPU also has
access, via a special path (I guess this was later named "FASTBUS"?), to two
_separate_ banks of high-speed memory. Those memories are _each_ dual ported;
one port to the CPU's direct path, the other to a second UNIBUS, ("UNIBUS 2").

So something on UNIBUS 2 could be talking to one bank of high-speed memory
while the 11/45 CPU talks to the other bank - while at the same time, a DMA
device on UNIBUS 1 could be talking to memory on UNIBUS 1. I.e. three
separate memory transfers all going on _completely_ simultaneously.

UNIBUS 2 does not have a 'bus master' - one has to be provided by plugging
some PDP-11 into it. One can either plug another PDP-11 into UNIBUS 2
(forming a primitive multi-processor, one in which the two machines share
access to the high-speed memory on the 11/45); or one can 'jumper' the two
UNIBI (is that the plural?) in the 11/45 together, at which point DMA devices
on UNIBUS 1 can do DMA into the high-speed memories (which they do not have
access to, if the two are separate).


The way grants, etc, work is pretty simple. (You can skip this part if you
don't care about the really gory details. :-) UNIBUS connectors include BGn
and NPG - in at one end of the cable/jumper, out at the other. So that short
section of UNIBUS 2 (it's actually just a chunk of the 11/45's main backplane)
can either have:

- a pair of UNIBUS cables (one in, one out) to make it part of some other
	machine's UNIBUS;
- one UNIBUS cables (in), and a terminator at the other end, to make it the
	last thing on that machine's UNIBUS;
- a UNIBUS jumpers (in) to make it part of the 11/45's UNIBUS, with the
	'out' UNIBUS connector on UNIBUS 2 leading to the rest of the
	11/45's UNIBUS

If you don't jumper UNIBI 1 and 2 together, the 'UNIBUS out' cable to the rest
of the 11/45's UNIBUS is plugged straight into the CPU's 'UNIBUS out' slot
(i.e. where the jumper would have plugged in if the two UNIBI were united).


    > Should I eliminate all this fancy bipolar and core memory and just use
    > an m7891?

For debugging, yes; simplest is always best. But if you have the fancy
bipolar or MOS (not core; the fast memory path only supports the first two),
don't pitch it, it's probably rare and unusual; and once you have the machine
running, you may want to play with getting it running.

    > If I did, would it be on the fastbus, unibus a or unibus b and would it
    > even matter?

Has to be on UNIBUS 1. (UNIBUS 2 becomes part of UNIBUS 1 if the two segments
are jumpered together.)

	Noel

From mattislind at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 10:24:27 2015
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 17:24:27 +0100
Subject: MicroVAX 2000 with Network Interfaces problems.
Message-ID: <CABr82SLmwW+v8h7Qgox7JVp4dpR_+ZGzQfM_cSH3+7kO7WeVCg@mail.gmail.com>

I have a MicroVAX 2000 that has suffered from a leaking battery. It has
been cleaned and seems to be mostly working except for the network
interface.

The startup reports

?? NI       0011.700E  V1.1


for the network interface.


The switch is set for thin ethernet, and a 50 ohm T is in the connector
with two terminators.


What does the failure code mean? I cannot find any document identifying
different failure codes. It seems that the software finds the version so at
least something is working.


Anyone that has an idea what is wrong?


I will try to examine the content of registers at 200E0000 and 200E0004 and
also if the ROM is accessible properly at 20100000 - 2011FFFF. But other
than that, what can be done?

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  5 10:27:52 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  5 Feb 2015 11:27:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
Message-ID: <20150205162752.0DEE918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jacob Ritorto

    > Should I eliminate all this fancy bipolar and core memory and just use
    > an m7891?

PS: I forgot to mention: that board, IIRC, _has_ to go into a Modified UNIBUS
slot.  Plugging it into something that's _not_ MUD will, I am pretty sure, fry
something. Do you have a backplane with has MUD slots to plug it into? I
_think_ DD11-C's and DD11-D's have them.

    > From: tony duell

    > A plain Variac does not provide isolation from the mains so you are
    > actually now working on mains-connected circuitry (read : dangerous and
    > you can't clip a 'scope on it).

I'm clearly a little slow this morning: why can't you use a 'scope on it?

    > From: Mouse

    > Perhaps fortunately, it appears that here, at least, incandescents
    > aren't completely banned, just vanilla 100W ones. 

In the US, 'vanilla' 75W bulbs are now also banned (and I think 60W's are
headed that way, too); 'specialty' bulbs (not sure of the exact definition -
think coloured, etc) of 75W and 100W are still allowed. (As are, ironically,
plain 150W and 200W!)

	Noel

From drb at msu.edu  Thu Feb  5 10:34:01 2015
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 11:34:01 -0500
Subject: Prime?
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 05 Feb 2015 15:59:27 +0000.)
 <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> 
Message-ID: <20150205163401.E7A9DA58094@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

Bob,

 > I've heard something about a prime emulator (to run primos, premix
 > etc)..  does anyone know any info on where it is and how to get ahold
 > of it?

Last I talked to Jim, he wasn't doing hobbyist versions any more. :(  He
said it was a fair amount of work to produce one, and there wasn't much
interest.

I don't believe I've seen Primix in captivity, though there are
certainly tapes that haven't been read somewhere.

 > Anyone know of any actual prime hardware out there?

You probably met most of the usual suspects at VCFmw.  Ian Primus has a
fair collection.  I have a working 5340, plus a 2550 and a 4050 that
need work.  I think Jeff Russ had a machine that needed a power supply.
Daiyu Hurst may have a machine that needs work.  There are a few other
folks I've talked to about Prime stuff that may or may not have
hardware, including one ex-Prime engineer who had some hard-to-read
cartridge tapes from an EXL.

Computronics still supports a few customers. (!)  I think 1st Solutions
has packed it in.  There may be a few outfits that support government
machines: not all that long ago, I saw a support price list online that
included a few bits of Prime gear.

I thought you folks had mainly EXL hardware, not 50 Series?

De

From bbrown at harpercollege.edu  Thu Feb  5 11:03:43 2015
From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 17:03:43 +0000
Subject: Prime?
In-Reply-To: <20150205163401.E7A9DA58094@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
 <20150205163401.E7A9DA58094@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B456@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>

I was mostly hoping for an emulator that I could set-up and play with on my own....used to work a bit with a prime 750 and later an exl box.
-Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Boone
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 10:34 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Prime?

Bob,

 > I've heard something about a prime emulator (to run primos, premix  > etc)..  does anyone know any info on where it is and how to get ahold  > of it?

Last I talked to Jim, he wasn't doing hobbyist versions any more. :(  He said it was a fair amount of work to produce one, and there wasn't much interest.

I don't believe I've seen Primix in captivity, though there are certainly tapes that haven't been read somewhere.

 > Anyone know of any actual prime hardware out there?

You probably met most of the usual suspects at VCFmw.  Ian Primus has a fair collection.  I have a working 5340, plus a 2550 and a 4050 that need work.  I think Jeff Russ had a machine that needed a power supply.
Daiyu Hurst may have a machine that needs work.  There are a few other folks I've talked to about Prime stuff that may or may not have hardware, including one ex-Prime engineer who had some hard-to-read cartridge tapes from an EXL.

Computronics still supports a few customers. (!)  I think 1st Solutions has packed it in.  There may be a few outfits that support government
machines: not all that long ago, I saw a support price list online that included a few bits of Prime gear.

I thought you folks had mainly EXL hardware, not 50 Series?

De

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Feb  5 11:12:47 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 11:12:47 -0600
Subject: Prime?
In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B456@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
 <20150205163401.E7A9DA58094@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B456@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
Message-ID: <007c01d04166$f7388350$e5a989f0$@classiccmp.org>

I have been actively seeking a Pr1me to add to my collection for years. I
spent many years of my professional career working on them as a
user/administrator/developer.

J



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  5 11:21:05 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  5 Feb 2015 12:21:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
Message-ID: <20150205172105.51D5318C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jacob Ritorto

    > Should I eliminate all this fancy bipolar and core memory and just use
    > an m7891?

PPS: Why bother with memory at all, at least to get the CPU running at a
basic level? Use the hack that someone here (I forget who, IIRC it was Johnny
B.) reported, which is that you can store really small programs in the PARs -
although in the 11/45, you're restricted to instructions of the form 00xxxx!
Still, that's good enough for BR, CLR, INC, etc, etc.

	Noel

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Feb  5 11:37:27 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 11:37:27 -0600
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfC7ABwDC2yxX+gyXrN6w=w6d=z=fssX1EUKRqwxHVdocA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2DCEB.1060104@pico-systems.com>
 <CAHYQbfC7ABwDC2yxX+gyXrN6w=w6d=z=fssX1EUKRqwxHVdocA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D3AA57.6010305@pico-systems.com>

On 02/04/2015 09:08 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
>> The 11/45 has a row of little step-down regulator modules, all plugged in
>> with
>> those horrible AMP Mate-n-Lock connectors.  We often had bad contacts on
>> those and they would sometimes burn the connector housings or char the
>> ends of the wires.  That was all about 1980, I can't imagine they've
>> improved
>> with age.  I think you may have more trouble with these than anything else
>> in the machine.
>
> I wonder if spraying out with crc contact cleaner and a nice slathering of
> dielectric grease would help.
>
I had a Conrac studio video monitor a long time ago that had 
been dosed with some horrible
contact "improver" gunk that turned all the Molex connectors 
to green blobs.  After this had
been done, the monitor would never work reliably.  This 
totally turned me off to these
materials.  I do NOT know what specific thing was used on 
that unit, but the results were
awful.

The problem is these pure tin coatings oxidize, and 
especially once the contact starts to
run warm, the process accelerates.  The only REAL solution 
is to replace both terminals,
and possibly the housings if they get burned up, too.  
However, that was too much trouble,
so usually I just carefully squeezed the female pin to give 
a tighter grip on the male, cleaned
them as well as I could and put it back together.  If it 
really got burned up, I did have to
replace the contacts.  I may have had to do the replacement 
on maybe 2 contacts in the
time we had the 11/45.  But, we had bad contacts causing one 
of the +5 regulators to
drop out happen a number of times, maybe 10+ in those 5 or 
so years. I think it was
just about always the +5 regulators as they had the highest 
current, but at least once
is was one of the 15V regs.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Feb  5 11:43:25 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 11:43:25 -0600
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <20150205161512.5211818C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150205161512.5211818C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54D3ABBD.1080203@pico-systems.com>

On 02/05/2015 10:15 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Jacob Ritorto
>
>      > Can anyone understand and explain the unibus a / unibus b concept?
>
> I've never personally worked on a machine with them separate, but the picture
> on pg. 15 of the 11/45 Processor Handbook (1971 edition), and accompanying
> text, should make what's going on pretty clear.
>
> You have the 'normal' UNIBUS ("UNIBUS 1" they call it), controlled by the
> 11/45 CPU, on which regular memory, devices, etc live. The CPU also has
> access, via a special path (I guess this was later named "FASTBUS"?), to two
> _separate_ banks of high-speed memory. Those memories are _each_ dual ported;
> one port to the CPU's direct path, the other to a second UNIBUS, ("UNIBUS 2").
>
> So something on UNIBUS 2 could be talking to one bank of high-speed memory
> while the 11/45 CPU talks to the other bank - while at the same time, a DMA
> device on UNIBUS 1 could be talking to memory on UNIBUS 1. I.e. three
> separate memory transfers all going on _completely_ simultaneously.
>
> UNIBUS 2 does not have a 'bus master' - one has to be provided by plugging
> some PDP-11 into it. One can either plug another PDP-11 into UNIBUS 2
> (forming a primitive multi-processor, one in which the two machines share
> access to the high-speed memory on the 11/45); or one can 'jumper' the two
> UNIBI (is that the plural?) in the 11/45 together, at which point DMA devices
> on UNIBUS 1 can do DMA into the high-speed memories (which they do not have
> access to, if the two are separate).
>
>
>
Gee, our 11/45 (SN343) didn't have this, as far as I know.  
This sounds more like an
11/70.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Feb  5 11:46:48 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 11:46:48 -0600
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <20150205162752.0DEE918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150205162752.0DEE918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54D3AC88.6050404@pico-systems.com>

On 02/05/2015 10:27 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: tony duell
>
>      > A plain Variac does not provide isolation from the mains so you are
>      > actually now working on mains-connected circuitry (read : dangerous and
>      > you can't clip a 'scope on it).
>
> I'm clearly a little slow this morning: why can't you use a 'scope on it?
>
>
Because the equipment under test is connected to the mains.  
A bridge rectifier is
between the AC input and the rest of the circuitry, 
therefore there is no part
of the EUT that is at neutral potential, and if you hook up 
a grounded scope, you
will have fireworks.  Floating a scope above ground should 
be reserved for the
most special cases where you are testing line-powered gear 
that MUST not
run on an isolation transformer, for some reason.

Jon

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Feb  5 12:04:39 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 18:04:39 +0000
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <20150205162752.0DEE918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150205162752.0DEE918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B30BE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

>    > From: tony duell
>
>    > A plain Variac does not provide isolation from the mains so you are
>    > actually now working on mains-connected circuitry (read : dangerous and
>    > you can't clip a 'scope on it).
>
> I'm clearly a little slow this morning: why can't you use a 'scope on it?

With most 'scopes one side of the input is grounded -- you have a coaxial cable
with the shield connected to the 'scope case and true ground. In most, if not all,
countries, one side of the mains is connected to ground too. So if you have 
something directly connected to mains (the common example on this list
would be the the chopper circuit of an SMPSU) then you can't just clip the
'scope ground lead on it. If the input is a bridge rectifier (as it is in most
SMPSUs and in the DEC regulator bricks that started this), then clipping the
'scope ground to the obvious point -- the -ve output of that rectifier -- will 
effectively put a diode across the mains. This is a good way to let lots of magic
smoke out.

The correct way round this is to run the item under test off an isolating 
transformer. Then no point on the secondary side of that transformer is
necessarily grounded (that is the whole point of it being an _isolating_
transformer), so you can arbitrarily connect any single point in the circuit
to ground. So you can clip your 'scope ground lead where you like.

The dangerous way is to 'float the scope' -- that is to disconnect the mains
earth from the 'scope (in the mains plug, for example. You can now connect
the 'scope ground lead where you want, but since that point is not necessarily
the same voltage as true ground, you can end up with the metal 'scope case
at a high voltage wrt true ground. Very nasty!.

The official manual for the Philips PSU in my P854 computer gives all the waveforms
in the chopper circuit. It actually states that you should use an isolating transformer 
on the mains input of the PSU to look at these, but if one is not available to disconnect
the mains earth lead of the 'scope. Rather you than me.

Variacs, BTW, are variable autotransformers and do not provide isolation.
So the same problems exist if you are running something off a mains-powered
variac. Of course you can use a variac together with an isolating transformer.


>    > From: Mouse
>
>    > Perhaps fortunately, it appears that here, at least, incandescents
>    > aren't completely banned, just vanilla 100W ones.
>
> In the US, 'vanilla' 75W bulbs are now also banned (and I think 60W's are
> headed that way, too); 'specialty' bulbs (not sure of the exact definition -
> think coloured, etc) of 75W and 100W are still allowed. (As are, ironically,
> plain 150W and 200W!)

Over here bulbs above a certain power (is it 60W now?) can't be sold for
'domestic lighting', but can AFAIK, be sold for any other purpose. And 
there is no restriction on what you use the bulb for after buying it, although
I am told some insurance companies won't pay out if they discover a fire
was caused by such bulbs used for domestic lighting.

More usefully, you can still get normal incandescent bulbs for special
applications (e.g. lighting the inside of a cooking oven), 'rough service'
bulbs, and so on. All of which make perfectly good ballast resistors.

Am I the only person to have a cable with an IEC 'kettle socket'
on one end, a similar plug on the other (think of the plug used
to power the IBM5151 monitor) with a lampholder wired in series
with the live wire? I connect it between the power cable and 
input socket of something I suspect of having a mains short, and
put a suitable bulb in the holder.

For larger appliances (the iron somebody mentioned), I have read
that those 1kW halogen security lamps make quite good ballasts.

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Feb  5 12:08:15 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 18:08:15 +0000
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <54D3ABBD.1080203@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150205161512.5211818C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,
 <54D3ABBD.1080203@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B30D2@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

[Dual Unibus on the 11/45]

> Gee, our 11/45 (SN343) didn't have this, as far as I know.
> This sounds more like an
> 11/70.

My 11/45 (S/N 315) most certainly does have the capability for 
dual Unibus, but I have the M9200 jumper fitted. You only get
the dual Unibus if you have the special 11/45 memory boards, 
which I don't.

-tony

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Thu Feb  5 12:26:49 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 18:26:49 +0000 (WET)
Subject: MicroVAX 2000 with Network Interfaces problems.
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 05 Feb 2015 17:24:27 +0100"
 <CABr82SLmwW+v8h7Qgox7JVp4dpR_+ZGzQfM_cSH3+7kO7WeVCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01PI66GEUW0O005YEP@beyondthepale.ie>

Mattis Lind wrote:
>
>I have a MicroVAX 2000 that has suffered from a leaking battery. It has
>been cleaned and seems to be mostly working except for the network
>interface.
>

(Mine is a Vaxstation 2000 and the serial interfaces suffered instead)

>
>The startup reports
>
>?? NI       0011.700E  V1.1
>
>
>for the network interface.
>
>
>The switch is set for thin ethernet, and a 50 ohm T is in the connector
>with two terminators.
>
>
>What does the failure code mean? I cannot find any document identifying
>different failure codes. It seems that the software finds the version so at
>least something is working.
>
>
>Anyone that has an idea what is wrong?
>

My VAXSTATION 2000 and MICROVAX MAINTENANCE GUIDE EK-VSTAB-MG says that the
error code is of the format 00XXYYYY where XX is the number of retries over
the ethernet cable and YYYY is one of a number of codes listed in table E-17.
Table E-17 says 700E means "RX failed".

If you also have other error codes, I can look them up too.

>
>I will try to examine the content of registers at 200E0000 and 200E0004 and
>also if the ROM is accessible properly at 20100000 - 2011FFFF. But other
>than that, what can be done?
>

Try the AUI interface in case only the thinwire interface is broken.  It may
require a cable with a specific plug that can get into the space available - if
you don't have a suitable one a short piece of ribbon cable with a male and
female DA15 crimped onto it might be helpful.

I'd also suggest checking the switch - on mine the slot it protrudes through is
only just long enough and it has to be pushed quite hard to one end for it to
make contact properly.  Also, the contacts could be corroded from the battery
leakage, as could the contacts on the connectors on the little ribbon which
goes between the AUI connector and switch on the case and the main board. (I
really hate when I've struggled to put the machine back together and forgotten
to plug this one back in beforehand...)

Finally, it might be worth putting a scope on the thinwire connection while
still terminated and running the tests to see if the interface is managing to
drive the network.  If not, the failure would seem likely to be in the
circuitry common to both transmit and receive paths close (electrically if not
also physically) to the thinwire network connector.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 12:49:04 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 12:49:04 -0600
Subject: Pdp11/23+ EPROM upgrade
Message-ID: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>

I want to update the EPROMs on my 11/23+, which currently has 2716s.  I'm going to need 64k chips, and I understand 2764s won't work on this board.

What are my replacement options?  I have a fairly capable programmer, it can probably handle anything with 64k capacity.

Thanks.



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  5 12:51:41 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  5 Feb 2015 13:51:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
Message-ID: <20150205185141.A238918C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jon Elson

    > Gee, our 11/45 (SN343) didn't have this, as far as I know.
    > This sounds more like an 11/70.

Similar to the 11/70 in some ways, yes (a high-speed private memory bus), but
very different in others (a second UNIBUS allowing another PDP-11 access to
shared memory - nothing like that on the 11/70).

Like I said, this is in the 1971 11/45 Processor Handbook (which I think is
the first edition; I've never seen an earlier one), so I think it's original.
I guess that manual's not online; if you'd like, I can scan that diagram and
put it online.

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  5 12:59:30 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  5 Feb 2015 13:59:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
Message-ID: <20150205185930.263B518C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jon Elson

    > there is no part of the EUT that is at neutral potential

    > From: tony duell

    > With most 'scopes one side of the input is grounded -- you have a
    > coaxial cable with the shield connected to the 'scope case and true
    > ground.

Ah. That's the part I was missing! I (naively :-) assumed that the 'scope's
whole input amplifier would be 'floating', and the input signal would be taken
as referenced to the 'ground' on the probe, which could itself be floating.

Clearly not! (I'll have to look at the manuals/prints for my 'scopes -
Tektronix 465's - to see if they are this way. Anyone happen to know,
offhand?) Thanks!

    > In most, if not all, countries, one side of the mains is connected to
    > ground too.

Yes, in the US that's code; neutral (aka 'return') is usually tied to ground
at the main panel. (Well, at least in the state I live in - technically I
suspect that it's under state law, not Federal, but I would assume the states
are all the same, the way they are with commercial law.)

	Noel

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Feb  5 13:20:01 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 14:20:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <20150205185930.263B518C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150205185930.263B518C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <201502051920.OAA24053@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> With most 'scopes one side of the input is grounded [...]
> Ah.  That's the part I was missing!  I (naively :-) assumed that the
> 'scope's whole input amplifier would be 'floating', and the input
> signal would be taken as referenced to the 'ground' on the probe,
> which could itself be floating.

That amounts to a differential (rather than single-ended) input, and I
would consider that the _right_ way to do it.  But, of course, that
costs, and single-ended is plenty good enough for most purposes, so
that's what most scopes do. :-(

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 13:43:22 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 11:43:22 -0800
Subject: Pdp11/23+ EPROM upgrade
In-Reply-To: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>
References: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKmka16e1dtLHmBPJQWRcDC32zVz=XD+quAZ-UL=_Vrxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Roe Peterson <roeapeterson at gmail.com> wrote:
> I want to update the EPROMs on my 11/23+, which currently has 2716s.  I'm going to need 64k chips, and I understand 2764s won't work on this board.
>
> What are my replacement options?  I have a fairly capable programmer, it can probably handle anything with 64k capacity.
>

MCM68766

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  5 14:01:56 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 12:01:56 -0800
Subject: Pdp11/23+ EPROM upgrade
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKmka16e1dtLHmBPJQWRcDC32zVz=XD+quAZ-UL=_Vrxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKmka16e1dtLHmBPJQWRcDC32zVz=XD+quAZ-UL=_Vrxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D3CC34.1010409@sydex.com>

On 02/05/2015 11:43 AM, Glen Slick wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Roe Peterson <roeapeterson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I want to update the EPROMs on my 11/23+, which currently has 2716s.  I'm going to need 64k chips, and I understand 2764s won't work on this board.
>>
>> What are my replacement options?  I have a fairly capable programmer, it can probably handle anything with 64k capacity.
>>
>
> MCM68766
>

There's also the '68765--a crap-shoot as far as which is easier to find.

--Chuck



From holm at freibergnet.de  Thu Feb  5 14:08:15 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 21:08:15 +0100
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150205124426.199B718C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150205124426.199B718C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150205200815.GB69772@beast.freibergnet.de>

Noel Chiappa wrote:

> So I'm debugging a dead PDP-11/23 board (M8186). The first thing I check is
> the clock; specifically the output of the first stage buffer-inverter (pin 16
> of E4, a 74S240, upper right corner of page 2 of the prints), which is
> distributed to a number of places. Nada. Totally flat-lined. So I checked the
> input (pin 4), and it's sitting at about 2V. Also flat-lined. This does not
> seem good... :-)
> 
> So here's my question: what's the likely fault here? The only thing upstream
> of that gate is the 13MHz crystal itself. So the fault has to be either the
> crystal or the S240 (which seems to be some sort of octal 3-state inverting
> buffer). Any guesses as to which?
> 
> As usual, thanks in advance for any help!
> 
> 	Noel


Hmm.. it looks to me as if the Board is missing the jumper W1 and the clock
is disabled. Look at this website (mot mine)

http://www.avitech.com.au/pdp-11-03/ba11nc.html

The jumper next to the crystal can seems to connect the clock from the
crystal oscillator to the 74S240. check the clock on both posts of W1.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Thu Feb  5 14:12:15 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 21:12:15 +0100
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
In-Reply-To: <20150204174020.252AF18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150204174020.252AF18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150205201215.GC69772@beast.freibergnet.de>

Noel Chiappa wrote:

> So I've seen some references which say that the M8190-AB and -AC (w-o/w FPJ11
> FPP chip) are 15 MHz "11/73" CPUs for QBUS use, and the M8190-AD and -AE
> (w-o/w FPJ11) are 18 MHz "11/83-84" CPUs for UNIBUS use (via the KTJ11-B
> convertor, of course). (Of course, the /83 is nominally QBUS, but let's ignore
> that for the moment... :-)
> 
> (And I'm not even going to try to give the KDJ11- suffixes that go with
> these... :-)
> 
> However, I'm wondering if this is correct... I have a CPU board out of a 11/84
> (one owned by DEC, no less!) which says M8190-AB on the handles, but the clock
> crystal says "18.432", and it has a 57-19400-09 J11 chip, which seems to be
> the 18MHz version (the 15Mhz seems to be -04).
> 
> Comparing it to a 'stock' -AB, this one seems to have the same 74S472 PROMs
> (6 along the lower left-hand edge), PALs (top center and lower left), etc.
> But they also match the ones on a 'stock' -AE, too!
> 
> So clearly an -AB/AC _can_ be _upgraded_ to an -AD/-AE... but are there
> actually any differences between an -AB/AC and an -AD/-AE, other than the
> speed?
> 
> I don't have my /84 up yet, so I can't plug a stock -AB in and see if it
> works, but I'm starting to get the impression that except for the speed of the
> J11 (and the crystal), and whether or not it came with the FPJ11, all four of
> these boards are otherwise identical. Whether it's a 73, 83 or 84 depends
> entirely on whether it has PMI memory and the KTJ11-B UNIBUS converter (and
> the correct backplane, for the latter, of course).
> 
> Anyone have an confirmation one way or the other? Thanks!
> 
> 	Noel

I've upgraded my Board from 15 to 18Mhz, changed the xtal and the J11,
works flawlessly on 2.11 BSD with PMI memory and FPU.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From js at cimmeri.com  Thu Feb  5 14:12:33 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 15:12:33 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B30BE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <20150205162752.0DEE918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B30BE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <54D3CEB1.4030500@cimmeri.com>



On 2/5/2015 1:04 PM, tony duell wrote:
>>     >  From: tony duell
>>
>>     >  A plain Variac does not provide isolation from the mains so you are
>>     >  actually now working on mains-connected circuitry (read : dangerous and
>>     >  you can't clip a 'scope on it).
>>
>> I'm clearly a little slow this morning: why can't you use a 'scope on it?
> With most 'scopes one side of the input is grounded -- you have a coaxial cable
> with the shield connected to the 'scope case and true ground. In most, if not all,
> countries, one side of the mains is connected to ground too. So if you have
> something directly connected to mains (the common example on this list
> would be the the chopper circuit of an SMPSU) then you can't just clip the
> 'scope ground lead on it. If the input is a bridge rectifier (as it is in most
> SMPSUs and in the DEC regulator bricks that started this), then clipping the
> 'scope ground to the obvious point -- the -ve output of that rectifier -- will
> effectively put a diode across the mains. This is a good way to let lots of magic
> smoke out.
>
> The correct way round this is to run the item under test off an isolating
> transformer. Then no point on the secondary side of that transformer is
> necessarily grounded (that is the whole point of it being an _isolating_
> transformer), so you can arbitrarily connect any single point in the circuit
> to ground. So you can clip your 'scope ground lead where you like.
>
> The dangerous way is to 'float the scope' -- that is to disconnect the mains
> earth from the 'scope (in the mains plug, for example. You can now connect
> the 'scope ground lead where you want, but since that point is not necessarily
> the same voltage as true ground, you can end up with the metal 'scope case
> at a high voltage wrt true ground. Very nasty!

I'm glad you said this as, at times, 
I've put my scope on the isolation 
transformer instead of the item itself.

Thank you-
- J.


From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 14:15:09 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 14:15:09 -0600
Subject: Pdp11/23+ EPROM upgrade
In-Reply-To: <54D3CC34.1010409@sydex.com>
References: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKmka16e1dtLHmBPJQWRcDC32zVz=XD+quAZ-UL=_Vrxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3CC34.1010409@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <E2547F31-1E2A-4219-AC52-7D2CD19A832F@gmail.com>


> On Feb 5, 2015, at 2:01 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 02/05/2015 11:43 AM, Glen Slick wrote:
>>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Roe Peterson <roeapeterson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I want to update the EPROMs on my 11/23+, which currently has 2716s.  I'm going to need 64k chips, and I understand 2764s won't work on this board.
>>> 
>>> What are my replacement options?  I have a fairly capable programmer, it can probably handle anything with 64k capacity.
>> 
>> MCM68766
> 
> There's also the '68765--a crap-shoot as far as which is easier to find.

How about MC68764L? 

> 
> --Chuck
> 
> 

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Feb  5 14:17:37 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 20:17:37 +0000
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <20150205185930.263B518C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150205185930.263B518C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B311E@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> 
> Ah. That's the part I was missing! I (naively :-) assumed that the 'scope's
> whole input amplifier would be 'floating', and the input signal would be taken
> as referenced to the 'ground' on the probe, which could itself be floating.
> 
> Clearly not! (I'll have to look at the manuals/prints for my 'scopes -
> Tektronix 465's - to see if they are this way. Anyone happen to know,
> offhand?) Thanks!

I am darn sure the Tekky 465 does have the 'ground' of the input amplifier --
the outer of the BNC probe connector -- tied to mains ground (and the metal
chassis/case of the instrument).

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Feb  5 14:19:47 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 20:19:47 +0000
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <201502051920.OAA24053@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20150205185930.263B518C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,
 <201502051920.OAA24053@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3130@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> 
> That amounts to a differential (rather than single-ended) input, and I
> would consider that the _right_ way to do it.  But, of course, that
> costs, and single-ended is plenty good enough for most purposes, so
> that's what most scopes do. :-(

Even when a 'scope has true differential inputs the common-mode range
may not be large enough to include mains. 

-tony

From evan at snarc.net  Thu Feb  5 14:21:54 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 15:21:54 -0500
Subject: Radio Shack
Message-ID: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>

So ..... Radio Shack is (more or less) finally dead.

There are still plenty of RS stores open for business. (Although I read 
this morning that they're not getting new shipments, which makes them 
essentially clearance stores.) Apparently the company is legally allowed 
to close a maximum of 200 stores per year. Or something like that.

Horn-tooting: the Wall Street Journal interviewed me about RS back at 
World Maker Faire last fall. They published the story online today and 
it'll be in print tomorrow.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/strategic-confusion-put-radioshack-at-the-mercy-of-lenders-1423164004

Scroll aaaaaaaaaaaall the way down to the bottom. (LOL, yeah, I'm 
important!)

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 14:26:14 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 15:26:14 -0500
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfB5d_6TfoQLSCJuN-EU3qCYhNn-=KQRqrt+bCLyJWxfZw@mail.gmail.com>

I think CFLs are kind of terrible.
http://www.richsoil.com/CFL-fluorescent-light-bulbs.jsp

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:

> > Personally, I worry a bit about LED lamps supplanting the
> > incandescents.
>
> Me too - though for a different reason: a (tungsten) incandescent bulb
> is an extremely useful thing when working on small appliances.  Hook it
> up in series with the mains and shorts in the appliance (a) don't do
> any damage and (b) are obvious when the bulb goes full brightness.  (Of
> course, the bulb has to be sized appropriately for the appliance's
> normal draw; a 50W bulb will false-positive when testing an iron. :-)
>
> And then there are people who use them as heating elements in (eg)
> wood-drying kilns.  And I'm sure there are plenty of other applications
> I haven't heard/thought of.
>
> Perhaps fortunately, it appears that here, at least, incandescents
> aren't completely banned, just vanilla 100W ones.  (I am, though,
> somewhat worried about this being the camel's nose.)
>
> /~\ The ASCII                             Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>  X  Against HTML                mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!           7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Thu Feb  5 14:27:41 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 12:27:41 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>

> So ..... Radio Shack is (more or less) finally dead.
> 


RadioShack had it essentially right in the 2014 Super Bowl commercial - the 80s called and they did want their store back. What they screwed up was thinking that meant the old store had to go and be replaced with the current monstrosity.

RadioShack should have brought back the store of the 1980s and updated it items like cheap cables, Raspberry Pi kits, etc. I.E. hobbyist and do it yourself stuff. Yes, they still would have to close a number of locations (do you really need a ratshack on every corner?) but what would have been left behind would have thrived...


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  5 14:30:08 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 12:30:08 -0800
Subject: Pdp11/23+ EPROM upgrade
In-Reply-To: <E2547F31-1E2A-4219-AC52-7D2CD19A832F@gmail.com>
References: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKmka16e1dtLHmBPJQWRcDC32zVz=XD+quAZ-UL=_Vrxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3CC34.1010409@sydex.com> <E2547F31-1E2A-4219-AC52-7D2CD19A832F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D3D2D0.9050903@sydex.com>

On 02/05/2015 12:15 PM, Roe Peterson wrote:
>
>> On Feb 5, 2015, at 2:01 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/05/2015 11:43 AM, Glen Slick wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Roe Peterson <roeapeterson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I want to update the EPROMs on my 11/23+, which currently has 2716s.  I'm going to need 64k chips, and I understand 2764s won't work on this board.
>>>>
>>>> What are my replacement options?  I have a fairly capable programmer, it can probably handle anything with 64k capacity.
>>>
>>> MCM68766
>>
>> There's also the '68765--a crap-shoot as far as which is easier to find.
>
> How about MC68764L?

If it's fast enough, probably.  The 764 did start the Moto line of 64Kb 
of 24-pin EPROMs. Doubtless one could also probably work up an SMT 
EEPROM as a plug-in module.


--Chuck



From isking at uw.edu  Thu Feb  5 14:37:47 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 12:37:47 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ00SQDYGSUWPYfFMwh38AwGpPofm1RSe5TEMEKgg32GYyQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'll miss them - they are still convenient when I need a fuse, bulb or lots
of other small passive components.  Sure, there's Mouser, but $8 in
shipping when all I need is a couple of fuses is ridiculous.  Don't even
mention $$$Digi-Key$$$.

And I agree, they could have ridden the new maker wave.

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:

> > So ..... Radio Shack is (more or less) finally dead.
> >
>
>
> RadioShack had it essentially right in the 2014 Super Bowl commercial -
> the 80s called and they did want their store back. What they screwed up was
> thinking that meant the old store had to go and be replaced with the
> current monstrosity.
>
> RadioShack should have brought back the store of the 1980s and updated it
> items like cheap cables, Raspberry Pi kits, etc. I.E. hobbyist and do it
> yourself stuff. Yes, they still would have to close a number of locations
> (do you really need a ratshack on every corner?) but what would have been
> left behind would have thrived...
>
>


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.

From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 14:44:26 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 14:44:26 -0600
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B311E@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <20150205185930.263B518C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B311E@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <8C249C09-47BF-482B-B0F9-27F606DFB04B@gmail.com>


On Feb 5, 2015, at 2:17 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>> 
>> Ah. That's the part I was missing! I (naively :-) assumed that the 'scope's
>> whole input amplifier would be 'floating', and the input signal would be taken
>> as referenced to the 'ground' on the probe, which could itself be floating.
>> 
>> Clearly not! (I'll have to look at the manuals/prints for my 'scopes -
>> Tektronix 465's - to see if they are this way. Anyone happen to know,
>> offhand?) Thanks!
> 
> I am darn sure the Tekky 465 does have the 'ground' of the input amplifier --
> the outer of the BNC probe connector -- tied to mains ground (and the metal
> chassis/case of the instrument).

Absolutely correct.


From isking at uw.edu  Thu Feb  5 14:46:21 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 12:46:21 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> wrote:

> So ..... Radio Shack is (more or less) finally dead.
>
> There are still plenty of RS stores open for business. (Although I read
> this morning that they're not getting new shipments, which makes them
> essentially clearance stores.) Apparently the company is legally allowed to
> close a maximum of 200 stores per year. Or something like that.
>
> Horn-tooting: the Wall Street Journal interviewed me about RS back at
> World Maker Faire last fall. They published the story online today and
> it'll be in print tomorrow.
>
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/strategic-confusion-put-
> radioshack-at-the-mercy-of-lenders-1423164004
>
> Scroll aaaaaaaaaaaall the way down to the bottom. (LOL, yeah, I'm
> important!)
>

Behind a paywall, y'all....

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.

From mikew at thecomputervalet.com  Thu Feb  5 14:50:28 2015
From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 14:50:28 -0600
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ00SQDYGSUWPYfFMwh38AwGpPofm1RSe5TEMEKgg32GYyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <CAKtEJ00SQDYGSUWPYfFMwh38AwGpPofm1RSe5TEMEKgg32GYyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.54d3d794.643c9869.67b3@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>

On February 5, 2015 at 2:37:54 PM, Ian S. King (isking at uw.edu) wrote:


RadioShack should have brought back the store of the 1980s and updated it items like cheap cables, Raspberry Pi kits, etc. I.E. hobbyist and do it yourself stuff.?


A few of the stores around here actually do carry that kind of stuff as well as transistors and resistors and a number of other stuff that, today, people might say falls under the ?Maker? style.?

Maybe they weren?t committed enough?

Having been born in 1970, I don?t recall much about the pre-Big Box Store days. I remember a few independent Big-Box-Stores like Sound Trek in Metairie, LA, but mostly I remember reading about the bigger stores pretty early on. Did RS just try to be Best Buy but in a smaller more distributed way??

When I lived in the Boston area, I did a lot of roam-around tech support and it was so worth it to go to a place in Needham, MA called You-Do-It Electronics which seems a lot like what RS used to be. They cater to hobbyist and industry and I honestly couldn?t begin to count how many times I went there.?

Maybe if RS had been able to stick to its roots, it could have been a nationwide YDI.

Cheers,

m



From evan at snarc.net  Thu Feb  5 14:49:58 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 15:49:58 -0500
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>


>> So ..... Radio Shack is (more or less) finally dead.
>>
>> There are still plenty of RS stores open for business. (Although I read
>> this morning that they're not getting new shipments, which makes them
>> essentially clearance stores.) Apparently the company is legally allowed to
>> close a maximum of 200 stores per year. Or something like that.
>>
>> Horn-tooting: the Wall Street Journal interviewed me about RS back at
>> World Maker Faire last fall. They published the story online today and
>> it'll be in print tomorrow.
>>
>> http://www.wsj.com/articles/strategic-confusion-put-
>> radioshack-at-the-mercy-of-lenders-1423164004
>>
>> Scroll aaaaaaaaaaaall the way down to the bottom. (LOL, yeah, I'm
>> important!)
>>
> Behind a paywall, y'all....

They seem to limit how many times you can view it. I was able to view it 
a couple of times via Google News (same link) but now I cannot.

From charles at uniwho.com  Thu Feb  5 14:53:44 2015
From: charles at uniwho.com (Charles)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 15:53:44 -0500
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>

yeah the 80?s kept their radio shack?.

90?s kept their radio shack?

anything after that ? is like "Cell Phone Accessory Express?
if you are lucky they might have A switch or A capacitor?.  And MAYBE it MIGHT be the value you actually need? but how many people re-cap their power supply with ONE cap?  

how many people need just one cap?

thinking about this is making me angry?.   I am glad radio shack is gone? rest in hell!


From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Thu Feb  5 14:54:44 2015
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 15:54:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <etPan.54d3d794.643c9869.67b3@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <CAKtEJ00SQDYGSUWPYfFMwh38AwGpPofm1RSe5TEMEKgg32GYyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <etPan.54d3d794.643c9869.67b3@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502051552390.28389@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Mike Whalen wrote:

> When I lived in the Boston area, I did a lot of roam-around tech support 
> and it was so worth it to go to a place in Needham, MA called You-Do-It 
> Electronics which seems a lot like what RS used to be. They cater to 
> hobbyist and industry and I honestly couldn?t begin to count how many 
> times I went there.

    I visited there on a Boston trip, some years back.  Neat place! 
Baynesville Electronics in Towson, MD is similar.


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 14:56:51 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 14:56:51 -0600
Subject: Pdp11/23+ EPROM upgrade
In-Reply-To: <54D3D2D0.9050903@sydex.com>
References: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKmka16e1dtLHmBPJQWRcDC32zVz=XD+quAZ-UL=_Vrxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3CC34.1010409@sydex.com> <E2547F31-1E2A-4219-AC52-7D2CD19A832F@gmail.com>
 <54D3D2D0.9050903@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <1B455EC8-672D-48A8-97E3-7B18A0DDCA36@gmail.com>





> On Feb 5, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 02/05/2015 12:15 PM, Roe Peterson wrote:
>>>  also the '68765--a crap-shoot as far as which is easier to find.
>> 
>> How about MC68764L?
> 
> If it's fast enough, probably.  The 764 did start the Moto line of 64Kb of 24-pin EPROMs. Doubtless one could also probably work up an SMT EEPROM as a plug-in module.

They are rated at 450ns, how fast is a 2716?


> 
> 
> --Chuck
> 
> 

From isking at uw.edu  Thu Feb  5 14:57:31 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 12:57:31 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ00-KOwzcF7Rv=1Uh_A3QncCfy83-KAfUxUZXiWigBJ5cg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 12:53 PM, Charles <charles at uniwho.com> wrote:

> yeah the 80?s kept their radio shack?.
>
> 90?s kept their radio shack?
>
> anything after that ? is like "Cell Phone Accessory Express?
> if you are lucky they might have A switch or A capacitor?.  And MAYBE it
> MIGHT be the value you actually need? but how many people re-cap their
> power supply with ONE cap?
>
> how many people need just one cap?
>
> thinking about this is making me angry?.   I am glad radio shack is gone?
> rest in hell!
>
>
If I'm (to use your example) recapping a power supply, I don't mind making
an order with Mouser.  But when I need a 10uF electrolytic (happened
recently) I can drive for five minutes, drop a buck or so, stop for a pint
at the pub next door :-) and go fix stuff.  They even had a 7805 I needed
for a project - less than $2, as I recall.  Mouser would charge me more in
postage.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 15:05:08 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 13:05:08 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502051552390.28389@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <CAKtEJ00SQDYGSUWPYfFMwh38AwGpPofm1RSe5TEMEKgg32GYyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <etPan.54d3d794.643c9869.67b3@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502051552390.28389@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+aDkgkQB1kqLV3THH5QTF0_v-2H-i5OWLFriWWE4Ak=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 5, 2015 12:54 PM, "Mike Loewen" <mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Mike Whalen wrote:
>
>> When I lived in the Boston area, I did a lot of roam-around tech support
and it was so worth it to go to a place in Needham, MA called You-Do-It
Electronics which seems a lot like what RS used to be. They cater to
hobbyist and industry and I honestly couldn?t begin to count how many times
I went there.
>
>
>    I visited there on a Boston trip, some years back.  Neat place!
Baynesville Electronics in Towson, MD is similar.
>

Also known as "You Blew it Electronics" when I lived in the Boston area in
the 1980's.

From mikew at thecomputervalet.com  Thu Feb  5 15:10:46 2015
From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 15:10:46 -0600
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+aDkgkQB1kqLV3THH5QTF0_v-2H-i5OWLFriWWE4Ak=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <CAKtEJ00SQDYGSUWPYfFMwh38AwGpPofm1RSe5TEMEKgg32GYyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <etPan.54d3d794.643c9869.67b3@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502051552390.28389@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <CAM2UOw+aDkgkQB1kqLV3THH5QTF0_v-2H-i5OWLFriWWE4Ak=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.54d3dc56.643c9869.6890@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>

On February 5, 2015 at 3:05:16 PM, Glen Slick (glen.slick at gmail.com) wrote:
Also known as "You Blew it Electronics" when I lived in the Boston area in?
the 1980's.?
What? Why is that?


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 15:13:11 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 13:13:11 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <etPan.54d3dc56.643c9869.6890@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <CAKtEJ00SQDYGSUWPYfFMwh38AwGpPofm1RSe5TEMEKgg32GYyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <etPan.54d3d794.643c9869.67b3@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502051552390.28389@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <CAM2UOw+aDkgkQB1kqLV3THH5QTF0_v-2H-i5OWLFriWWE4Ak=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <etPan.54d3dc56.643c9869.6890@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+Qj9w5NbokvtHeZe2nRq5P6WGdXcQtkT9JwBMEZ8==QA@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 5, 2015 1:10 PM, "Mike Whalen" <mikew at thecomputervalet.com> wrote:
>
> On February 5, 2015 at 3:05:16 PM, Glen Slick (glen.slick at gmail.com)
wrote:
> Also known as "You Blew it Electronics" when I lived in the Boston area
in
> the 1980's.
> What? Why is that?
>

Because that's were you went for replacement parts after you blew something
up. :)

From mikew at thecomputervalet.com  Thu Feb  5 15:14:31 2015
From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 15:14:31 -0600
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+Qj9w5NbokvtHeZe2nRq5P6WGdXcQtkT9JwBMEZ8==QA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <CAKtEJ00SQDYGSUWPYfFMwh38AwGpPofm1RSe5TEMEKgg32GYyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <etPan.54d3d794.643c9869.67b3@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502051552390.28389@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <CAM2UOw+aDkgkQB1kqLV3THH5QTF0_v-2H-i5OWLFriWWE4Ak=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <etPan.54d3dc56.643c9869.6890@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <CAM2UOw+Qj9w5NbokvtHeZe2nRq5P6WGdXcQtkT9JwBMEZ8==QA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.54d3dd37.74b0dc51.6890@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>

On February 5, 2015 at 3:13:18 PM, Glen Slick (glen.slick at gmail.com) wrote:

Because that's were you went for replacement parts after you blew something?
up. :)?
LOL! That?s hilarious. Yes, I can see that. You could definitely get yourself in a lot of trouble with stuff available there.?



Cheers,

m



From tothwolf at concentric.net  Thu Feb  5 15:14:57 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 15:14:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Mouse wrote:

>> Personally, I worry a bit about LED lamps supplanting the 
>> incandescents.
>
> Me too - though for a different reason: a (tungsten) incandescent bulb 
> is an extremely useful thing when working on small appliances.  Hook it 
> up in series with the mains and shorts in the appliance (a) don't do any 
> damage and (b) are obvious when the bulb goes full brightness.  (Of 
> course, the bulb has to be sized appropriately for the appliance's 
> normal draw; a 50W bulb will false-positive when testing an iron. :-)
>
> And then there are people who use them as heating elements in (eg) 
> wood-drying kilns.  And I'm sure there are plenty of other applications 
> I haven't heard/thought of.
>
> Perhaps fortunately, it appears that here, at least, incandescents 
> aren't completely banned, just vanilla 100W ones.  (I am, though, 
> somewhat worried about this being the camel's nose.)

I don't have links to all the relevant documents handy, but 100W, 75W, 60W 
and 40W are all banned from import or manufacture in the US (rough service 
bulbs are exempt...for now at least). Stores are allowed to sell off 
existing stocks and inventory, and many chains stocked up heavily before 
the second half (60W/40W) of the light bulb ban took effect.

T12 (1-1/2" diameter) fluorescent light tubes and magnetic ballasts were 
also similarly banned under the 'Energy Independence and Security Act of 
2007', and like with 60W and 40W incandescents, many chain stores stocked 
up heavily on T12 tubes. When they are gone though, they are gone (unless 
the law changes and consumers force the manufacturers to bring those 
product lines back).

The major manufacturers heavily lobbied the US government to pass 
legislation to ban these bulbs...and coincidentally, those horrible little 
compact fluorescents they had been wanting to push off on consumers have a 
much higher profit margin.

From ian at platinum.net  Thu Feb  5 15:19:01 2015
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 13:19:01 -0800
Subject: Microdata disk/tape images
Message-ID: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>

Long shot, but does anyone know of any available disk/tape/paper tape/ROM images for any of the Microdata machines (800/1600) or the relatives (Intertechnique Multi-8/Multi-4, MAI Basic Four BB-II)?

There?s a bit of documentation available - Bitsavers has a bit, and I have some MAI documentation that I?m in the process of scanning.  I?m toying with the idea of emulating this machine, but I?m having difficulty locating any software for it.

Thanks in advance.

Ian

From simski at dds.nl  Thu Feb  5 04:46:34 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 11:46:34 +0100
Subject: Terak 8510 keyboard
In-Reply-To: <20150204230730.643EA2073EDF@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <54D1EEFB.1070300@dds.nl>
 <20150204230730.643EA2073EDF@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <54D34A0A.30908@dds.nl>

hey, that is good news!

seems it is quite easy to emulate with this info. maybe even to adapt in 
software from another keyboard from the same timeframe.

thanks

On 04-02-15 19:10, John Foust wrote:
> At 04:05 AM 2/4/2015, Simon Claessen wrote:
>> we have a fine specimen with extra floppy drive in our collection, but we lack a keyboard and cables. what type of keyboard was used? I can imagine that a standard keyboard controller chip was used so maybe a hacked together setup can be produced to boot the thing (we have media)
>
> Google "terak.8532-2.keyboard.specs.pdf" and you'll find the specs
> in the Bitsavers archive.  Eight bits parallel with strobe, in short.
>
> - John
>
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From scaron at umich.edu  Thu Feb  5 10:05:36 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 11:05:36 -0500
Subject: Prime?
In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkXHD2uLPQwrGNegXqtM2Ck4=8hyekoDsEfGN48Onxo5Kw@mail.gmail.com>

It's real. Google "prirun.dyndns.org".

Very, very neat stuff. I always wanted to play with a Pr1me like I read
about in Phrack and they let me do it.

The author seems to keep a low profile and the code for the emulator has
never been released to the public, nor has any Pr1me software, as far as I
know. It would be cool to see it someday, but I'm plenty happy to just have
that emulator running there, open for the public to explore.

Now I just need to log on to a Multics and all my boxes will be ticked :O

I've occasionally seen Pr1me gear on eBay but it's never been complete and
it's always been expensive from my view. I'm sure someone out there has a
few.

Best,

Sean


On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Bob Brown <bbrown at harpercollege.edu> wrote:

> I've heard something about a prime emulator (to run primos, premix etc)..
> does anyone know any info on where it is and how to get ahold of it?
>
> Anyone know of any actual prime hardware out there?
>
> Thank you!
> -Bob
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Feb  5 12:21:16 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 10:21:16 -0800
Subject: Prime?
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkXHD2uLPQwrGNegXqtM2Ck4=8hyekoDsEfGN48Onxo5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
 <CAA43vkXHD2uLPQwrGNegXqtM2Ck4=8hyekoDsEfGN48Onxo5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D3B49C.7000000@bitsavers.org>

On 2/5/15 8:05 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
> nor has any Pr1me software, as far as I
> know.

There are tapes on bitsavers.

I was disappointed that the simulator never went anywhere as far as I was concerned
and sort of lost interest in hunting down much more for the machines. It is a shame
that his work will die with him.

Something for people to consider. I don't believe in hording simulators, especially
sources for them which are absolutely critical for preservation, and people who do
so shouldn't expect much help from me. Fortunately there are only a few examples
where I have refused to release code that I have to people who would not release
the code for what they were doing.






From cramcram at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 12:24:15 2015
From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 10:24:15 -0800
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <54D3AC88.6050404@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150205162752.0DEE918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <54D3AC88.6050404@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20j8Ro+5Qk3XP_K+qTLYntP1sVJkqEndB2tf1CfDQTMCWs9A@mail.gmail.com>

Where do you guys find these 11/45's?   I'd love to get one someday.  Is
there an PDP-11 outlet mall I missed somewhere?

Marc

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:

> On 02/05/2015 10:27 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>
>>      > From: tony duell
>>
>>      > A plain Variac does not provide isolation from the mains so you are
>>      > actually now working on mains-connected circuitry (read :
>> dangerous and
>>      > you can't clip a 'scope on it).
>>
>> I'm clearly a little slow this morning: why can't you use a 'scope on it?
>>
>>
>>  Because the equipment under test is connected to the mains.  A bridge
> rectifier is
> between the AC input and the rest of the circuitry, therefore there is no
> part
> of the EUT that is at neutral potential, and if you hook up a grounded
> scope, you
> will have fireworks.  Floating a scope above ground should be reserved for
> the
> most special cases where you are testing line-powered gear that MUST not
> run on an isolation transformer, for some reason.
>
> Jon
>

From digitgraph at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 13:05:30 2015
From: digitgraph at gmail.com (John Kaur)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 12:05:30 -0700
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <CAPgw8HMJRdvicyx5hqGmKJHLVYwW1CPCEpJfsavEL63+qn+arg@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone has worked up a led replacement for the '45, would be of interest.
The original incandescents are not easy to find, even tho have a couple
left.
Thanks, John>

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:

> > Personally, I worry a bit about LED lamps supplanting the
> > incandescents.
>
> Me too - though for a different reason: a (tungsten) incandescent bulb
> is an extremely useful thing when working on small appliances.  Hook it
> up in series with the mains and shorts in the appliance (a) don't do
> any damage and (b) are obvious when the bulb goes full brightness.  (Of
> course, the bulb has to be sized appropriately for the appliance's
> normal draw; a 50W bulb will false-positive when testing an iron. :-)
>
> And then there are people who use them as heating elements in (eg)
> wood-drying kilns.  And I'm sure there are plenty of other applications
> I haven't heard/thought of.
>
> Perhaps fortunately, it appears that here, at least, incandescents
> aren't completely banned, just vanilla 100W ones.  (I am, though,
> somewhat worried about this being the camel's nose.)
>
> /~\ The ASCII                             Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>  X  Against HTML                mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!           7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  5 13:31:46 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 11:31:46 -0800
Subject: Prime?
In-Reply-To: <54D3B49C.7000000@bitsavers.org>
References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
 <CAA43vkXHD2uLPQwrGNegXqtM2Ck4=8hyekoDsEfGN48Onxo5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3B49C.7000000@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <54D3C522.2030003@sydex.com>

On 02/05/2015 10:21 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

> I was disappointed that the simulator never went anywhere as far as I
> was concerned
> and sort of lost interest in hunting down much more for the machines. It
> is a shame
> that his work will die with him.

The last time I checked, you could still telnet into the simulator (that 
was a few months ago).

But yeah, it would have saved me a bunch of work if a simulator were 
openly available.  I had to decipher the format of a MAGSAV tape the 
hard way.

--Chuck



From scaron at umich.edu  Thu Feb  5 13:36:20 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 14:36:20 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <201502051920.OAA24053@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20150205185930.263B518C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <201502051920.OAA24053@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUTkGpfRXJG=mP_u5DN=iO2yxLwot0EiA1hrTy43BRh-w@mail.gmail.com>

It really depends on each individual scope and it's worth checking the
manual or spec sheet to be 100% sure of what it can or cannot do; this
could be particularly worthwhile if you have a scope that was sold more
into the field service market... My Tek 222, for example is
double-insulated with fully isolated channels and is designed to be able to
safely float up to 400 V p-t-p. The 222PS or 224 will withstand higher
yet...

Best,

Sean

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:

> >> With most 'scopes one side of the input is grounded [...]
> > Ah.  That's the part I was missing!  I (naively :-) assumed that the
> > 'scope's whole input amplifier would be 'floating', and the input
> > signal would be taken as referenced to the 'ground' on the probe,
> > which could itself be floating.
>
> That amounts to a differential (rather than single-ended) input, and I
> would consider that the _right_ way to do it.  But, of course, that
> costs, and single-ended is plenty good enough for most purposes, so
> that's what most scopes do. :-(
>
> /~\ The ASCII                             Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>  X  Against HTML                mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!           7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Thu Feb  5 13:39:41 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 14:39:41 -0500
Subject: Prime?
In-Reply-To: <54D3C522.2030003@sydex.com>
References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
 <CAA43vkXHD2uLPQwrGNegXqtM2Ck4=8hyekoDsEfGN48Onxo5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3B49C.7000000@bitsavers.org> <54D3C522.2030003@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkU8E2MjWvEyiqHOx7s702p+rT7hBdbVJxSKpK5evrcZzw@mail.gmail.com>

It's still up; I just logged into it a few hours ago. They seem to have
added more Primos revisions since I last checked. I too am a little...
dismayed... by the author's decision not to release the code however it's
certainly the author's right to do with their IP as they see fit. I guess
the field is always open for someone to re-invent the wheel open-source
style.

Best,

Sean


On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 02/05/2015 10:21 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
>
>  I was disappointed that the simulator never went anywhere as far as I
>> was concerned
>> and sort of lost interest in hunting down much more for the machines. It
>> is a shame
>> that his work will die with him.
>>
>
> The last time I checked, you could still telnet into the simulator (that
> was a few months ago).
>
> But yeah, it would have saved me a bunch of work if a simulator were
> openly available.  I had to decipher the format of a MAGSAV tape the hard
> way.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

From drb at msu.edu  Thu Feb  5 13:41:21 2015
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 14:41:21 -0500
Subject: Prime?
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 05 Feb 2015 11:31:46 -0800.)
 <54D3C522.2030003@sydex.com>
References: <54D3C522.2030003@sydex.com>
 <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
 <CAA43vkXHD2uLPQwrGNegXqtM2Ck4=8hyekoDsEfGN48Onxo5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3B49C.7000000@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <20150205194121.83549A58094@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > The last time I checked, you could still telnet into the simulator
 > (that was a few months ago).

It's still there.  prirun.dyndns.org port 8001 is Rev 19.2; other higher
ports have other versions.

 > But yeah, it would have saved me a bunch of work if a simulator were
 > openly available.  I had to decipher the format of a MAGSAV tape the
 > hard way.

Seems like a number of us have done that.  The one(s) I have yet to
solve are the latest versions of magsav, and the gadorful BRMS tool
formats.

De

From bbrown at harpercollege.edu  Thu Feb  5 14:26:56 2015
From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 20:26:56 +0000
Subject: Prime?
In-Reply-To: <54D3C522.2030003@sydex.com>
References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
 <CAA43vkXHD2uLPQwrGNegXqtM2Ck4=8hyekoDsEfGN48Onxo5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3B49C.7000000@bitsavers.org> <54D3C522.2030003@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B988@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>

Where is the info on getting into the simulator....the addresses that I've tried haven't worked.
-Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 1:32 PM
To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion@
Subject: Re: Prime?

On 02/05/2015 10:21 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

> I was disappointed that the simulator never went anywhere as far as I 
> was concerned and sort of lost interest in hunting down much more for 
> the machines. It is a shame that his work will die with him.

The last time I checked, you could still telnet into the simulator (that was a few months ago).

But yeah, it would have saved me a bunch of work if a simulator were openly available.  I had to decipher the format of a MAGSAV tape the hard way.

--Chuck



From scaron at umich.edu  Thu Feb  5 14:55:59 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 15:55:59 -0500
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfB5d_6TfoQLSCJuN-EU3qCYhNn-=KQRqrt+bCLyJWxfZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAHYQbfB5d_6TfoQLSCJuN-EU3qCYhNn-=KQRqrt+bCLyJWxfZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUGgLoM-hEREbowdybYs4=kHB2gZcecCCwCg2gXOEAxzQ@mail.gmail.com>

I absolutely hate them. The color temperature of the light they generate is
dreadful... harsh; the increase in lifetime over incandescents is nothing
near what is claimed; they are full of mercury and I find they are prone to
breakage where the tube meets the ballast when screwing or unscrewing them
in a socket. When I bought my home, I replaced every single one I found
with a good ole 60 watt GE Soft White. I will be hoarding big time when
they try to finally kill them off for good.

Best,

Sean


On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I think CFLs are kind of terrible.
> http://www.richsoil.com/CFL-fluorescent-light-bulbs.jsp
>
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
>
> > > Personally, I worry a bit about LED lamps supplanting the
> > > incandescents.
> >
> > Me too - though for a different reason: a (tungsten) incandescent bulb
> > is an extremely useful thing when working on small appliances.  Hook it
> > up in series with the mains and shorts in the appliance (a) don't do
> > any damage and (b) are obvious when the bulb goes full brightness.  (Of
> > course, the bulb has to be sized appropriately for the appliance's
> > normal draw; a 50W bulb will false-positive when testing an iron. :-)
> >
> > And then there are people who use them as heating elements in (eg)
> > wood-drying kilns.  And I'm sure there are plenty of other applications
> > I haven't heard/thought of.
> >
> > Perhaps fortunately, it appears that here, at least, incandescents
> > aren't completely banned, just vanilla 100W ones.  (I am, though,
> > somewhat worried about this being the camel's nose.)
> >
> > /~\ The ASCII                             Mouse
> > \ / Ribbon Campaign
> >  X  Against HTML                mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> > / \ Email!           7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
> >
>

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Thu Feb  5 15:30:34 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 13:30:34 -0800
Subject: Heathkit H-8 Tape Sound Files?
Message-ID: <CF79BB5A-F9FE-4518-98B7-3679B2E4D94E@nf6x.net>

Do any of y'all know of any archived tapes for the Heathkit H-8 computer that are online as audio files that I could record onto tapes, as opposed to image files containing the decoded data for use with emulators? So far, I've only found the latter, but would like to find the former for use with a real H-8.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  5 15:33:10 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 13:33:10 -0800
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <54D3E196.7020002@sydex.com>

On 02/05/2015 01:14 PM, Tothwolf wrote:

> I don't have links to all the relevant documents handy, but 100W, 75W,
> 60W and 40W are all banned from import or manufacture in the US (rough
> service bulbs are exempt...for now at least). Stores are allowed to sell
> off existing stocks and inventory, and many chains stocked up heavily
> before the second half (60W/40W) of the light bulb ban took effect.

A quick tour of my local big-box store shows that halogen versions of 
these standard incandescents are available.  So a 72W halogen = 100W 
standard; 43W halogen = 60W standard, etc.


> T12 (1-1/2" diameter) fluorescent light tubes and magnetic ballasts were
> also similarly banned under the 'Energy Independence and Security Act of
> 2007', and like with 60W and 40W incandescents, many chain stores
> stocked up heavily on T12 tubes. When they are gone though, they are
> gone (unless the law changes and consumers force the manufacturers to
> bring those product lines back).

There are LOTS of them left in stock; I can go to any big-box store and 
buy them.  The odd thing is that the more energy-efficient T8 lamps are 
more expensive than the remaining T12s.  Converting from T12 to T8 is 
mostly a matter of changing out the ballast--which you may want to do 
anyway, as the old iron ballasts weren't terribly efficient and did have 
a tendency to develop an annoying hum.

--Chuck



From charles at uniwho.com  Thu Feb  5 15:37:42 2015
From: charles at uniwho.com (Charles)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 16:37:42 -0500
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ00-KOwzcF7Rv=1Uh_A3QncCfy83-KAfUxUZXiWigBJ5cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <CAKtEJ00-KOwzcF7Rv=1Uh_A3QncCfy83-KAfUxUZXiWigBJ5cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15DABEE6-0837-4D1A-A491-2F110B1D4D16@uniwho.com>

well going along with what you are saying about the ability to buy a 10uf cap
then on for drinks at the pub?.

Why not sell packs of 10, or HELL even packs of 5?
Why not buy all the caps for your PSU at radio shack? your point is MOOT
because you were going to the PUB anyways,  Lush.  :-)



On Feb 5, 2015, at 3:57 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 12:53 PM, Charles <charles at uniwho.com> wrote:
> 
>> yeah the 80?s kept their radio shack?.
>> 
>> 90?s kept their radio shack?
>> 
>> anything after that ? is like "Cell Phone Accessory Express?
>> if you are lucky they might have A switch or A capacitor?.  And MAYBE it
>> MIGHT be the value you actually need? but how many people re-cap their
>> power supply with ONE cap?
>> 
>> how many people need just one cap?
>> 
>> thinking about this is making me angry?.   I am glad radio shack is gone?
>> rest in hell!
>> 
>> 
> If I'm (to use your example) recapping a power supply, I don't mind making
> an order with Mouser.  But when I need a 10uF electrolytic (happened
> recently) I can drive for five minutes, drop a buck or so, stop for a pint
> at the pub next door :-) and go fix stuff.  They even had a 7805 I needed
> for a project - less than $2, as I recall.  Mouser would charge me more in
> postage.
> 
> -- 
> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
> Ph.D. Candidate
> The Information School
> University of Washington
> 
> An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
> engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Thu Feb  5 15:38:21 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 15:38:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfC7ABwDC2yxX+gyXrN6w=w6d=z=fssX1EUKRqwxHVdocA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2DCEB.1060104@pico-systems.com>
 <CAHYQbfC7ABwDC2yxX+gyXrN6w=w6d=z=fssX1EUKRqwxHVdocA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051515510.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Wed, 4 Feb 2015, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
>>
>> The 11/45 has a row of little step-down regulator modules, all plugged 
>> in with those horrible AMP Mate-n-Lock connectors.  We often had bad 
>> contacts on those and they would sometimes burn the connector housings 
>> or char the ends of the wires.  That was all about 1980, I can't 
>> imagine they've improved with age.  I think you may have more trouble 
>> with these than anything else in the machine.
>
> I wonder if spraying out with crc contact cleaner and a nice slathering 
> of dielectric grease would help.

Never use silicone (dielectric) grease anywhere near this sort of stuff. 
Western Electric / AT&T learned the hard way back in the day when the 
stuff damaged switch and relay contacts in their telephone switches. On 
the other hand, something like Sanchem A-Special would be fine, although a 
little messy. (And before someone asks, no, A-Special is not anything at 
all like that nasty "Noalox" zinc particle garbage from Ideal 
Industries...totally different product families and applications.)

The main issue with AMP Mate-n-lock connectors (and similar pin and socket 
connectors from Molex) is the use of tin plated spring brass contacts 
instead of tin plated beryllium copper contacts. Spring brass contacts are 
not rated for very much current compared to beryllium copper contacts, but 
manufacturers tend to buy whatever is cheapest. I've successfully used 
both types of contacts for years without issues and haven't (yet) had the 
catastrophic failures some people have described. If I use these type of 
connectors for power though, I use beryllium copper contacts.

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 15:38:26 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 16:38:26 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <CAC20j8Ro+5Qk3XP_K+qTLYntP1sVJkqEndB2tf1CfDQTMCWs9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150205162752.0DEE918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <54D3AC88.6050404@pico-systems.com>
 <CAC20j8Ro+5Qk3XP_K+qTLYntP1sVJkqEndB2tf1CfDQTMCWs9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfC-ExqX=fkO0hSkSDX8kXsXrWiW9RwLnfU41ECwPDy8bQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Marc Howard <cramcram at gmail.com> wrote:

> Where do you guys find these 11/45's?   I'd love to get one someday.  Is
> there an PDP-11 outlet mall I missed somewhere?
>

 I've had mine since 1997; ex-Stanford machine.  Got it from some nice
fellows in Mountain View and have lugged it around the country, moving
house, like six times now :)  So it's time for it to finally work!

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Feb  5 15:41:36 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 14:41:36 -0700
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <CAC20j8Ro+5Qk3XP_K+qTLYntP1sVJkqEndB2tf1CfDQTMCWs9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150205162752.0DEE918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <54D3AC88.6050404@pico-systems.com>
 <CAC20j8Ro+5Qk3XP_K+qTLYntP1sVJkqEndB2tf1CfDQTMCWs9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D3E390.5080805@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/5/2015 11:24 AM, Marc Howard wrote:
> Where do you guys find these 11/45's?   I'd love to get one someday.  Is
> there an PDP-11 outlet mall I missed somewhere?
>

It is hiding behind a Radio Shack store ...



From tothwolf at concentric.net  Thu Feb  5 15:44:22 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 15:44:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <20150205162752.0DEE918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150205162752.0DEE918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051543450.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:

>    > From: Mouse
>
>    > Perhaps fortunately, it appears that here, at least, incandescents
>    > aren't completely banned, just vanilla 100W ones.
>
> In the US, 'vanilla' 75W bulbs are now also banned (and I think 60W's 
> are headed that way, too); 'specialty' bulbs (not sure of the exact 
> definition - think coloured, etc) of 75W and 100W are still allowed. (As 
> are, ironically, plain 150W and 200W!)

They already are. It took effect in 2014.

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 15:45:50 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 16:45:50 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051515510.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2DCEB.1060104@pico-systems.com>
 <CAHYQbfC7ABwDC2yxX+gyXrN6w=w6d=z=fssX1EUKRqwxHVdocA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051515510.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfAwTp8AEQS8+iMwJpoV=d3ec7QNn3BB_8z-D9sz0VHacw@mail.gmail.com>

excellent information - thanks!

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 4:38 PM, Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 4 Feb 2015, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The 11/45 has a row of little step-down regulator modules, all plugged
>>> in with those horrible AMP Mate-n-Lock connectors.  We often had bad
>>> contacts on those and they would sometimes burn the connector housings or
>>> char the ends of the wires.  That was all about 1980, I can't imagine
>>> they've improved with age.  I think you may have more trouble with these
>>> than anything else in the machine.
>>>
>>
>> I wonder if spraying out with crc contact cleaner and a nice slathering
>> of dielectric grease would help.
>>
>
> Never use silicone (dielectric) grease anywhere near this sort of stuff.
> Western Electric / AT&T learned the hard way back in the day when the stuff
> damaged switch and relay contacts in their telephone switches. On the other
> hand, something like Sanchem A-Special would be fine, although a little
> messy. (And before someone asks, no, A-Special is not anything at all like
> that nasty "Noalox" zinc particle garbage from Ideal Industries...totally
> different product families and applications.)
>
> The main issue with AMP Mate-n-lock connectors (and similar pin and socket
> connectors from Molex) is the use of tin plated spring brass contacts
> instead of tin plated beryllium copper contacts. Spring brass contacts are
> not rated for very much current compared to beryllium copper contacts, but
> manufacturers tend to buy whatever is cheapest. I've successfully used both
> types of contacts for years without issues and haven't (yet) had the
> catastrophic failures some people have described. If I use these type of
> connectors for power though, I use beryllium copper contacts.
>

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 15:47:47 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 16:47:47 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>

  Hey everyone, making some progress here -- thanks for all the tips so far!

  Most of the power regulators are fine, but both H745 regulators seem to
be toast.  Only getting -1.2 volts; should be -15 and they squeal angrily
when I turn the pot.  The surplus shops seem to want $200 for one, so
that's not an option for me.

  How does one repair such a beast?

thx
jake

P.S. Also, the main H742s are sagging just a little, but I didn't see an
adjustment on them to bring them up.  Anyone know where to look?

From isking at uw.edu  Thu Feb  5 15:49:41 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 13:49:41 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <15DABEE6-0837-4D1A-A491-2F110B1D4D16@uniwho.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <CAKtEJ00-KOwzcF7Rv=1Uh_A3QncCfy83-KAfUxUZXiWigBJ5cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15DABEE6-0837-4D1A-A491-2F110B1D4D16@uniwho.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ00N68OG4t9Wc8RDK-OrymRvycNTVzhn6nAkXDk+VoPNxw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Charles <charles at uniwho.com> wrote:

> well going along with what you are saying about the ability to buy a 10uf
> cap
> then on for drinks at the pub?.
>
> Why not sell packs of 10, or HELL even packs of 5?
> Why not buy all the caps for your PSU at radio shack? your point is MOOT
> because you were going to the PUB anyways,  Lush.  :-)
>
> And YOUR point - if any - is elusive.


> On Feb 5, 2015, at 3:57 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 12:53 PM, Charles <charles at uniwho.com> wrote:
> >
> >> yeah the 80?s kept their radio shack?.
> >>
> >> 90?s kept their radio shack?
> >>
> >> anything after that ? is like "Cell Phone Accessory Express?
> >> if you are lucky they might have A switch or A capacitor?.  And MAYBE it
> >> MIGHT be the value you actually need? but how many people re-cap their
> >> power supply with ONE cap?
> >>
> >> how many people need just one cap?
> >>
> >> thinking about this is making me angry?.   I am glad radio shack is
> gone?
> >> rest in hell!
> >>
> >>
> > If I'm (to use your example) recapping a power supply, I don't mind
> making
> > an order with Mouser.  But when I need a 10uF electrolytic (happened
> > recently) I can drive for five minutes, drop a buck or so, stop for a
> pint
> > at the pub next door :-) and go fix stuff.  They even had a 7805 I needed
> > for a project - less than $2, as I recall.  Mouser would charge me more
> in
> > postage.
> >
> > --
> > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
> > Ph.D. Candidate
> > The Information School
> > University of Washington
> >
> > An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
> > engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.
>
>


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Feb  5 15:54:23 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 21:54:23 +0000
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B31EA@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

>   Hey everyone, making some progress here -- thanks for all the tips so far!
> 
>   Most of the power regulators are fine, but both H745 regulators seem to
> be toast.  Only getting -1.2 volts; should be -15 and they squeal angrily
> when I turn the pot.  The surplus shops seem to want $200 for one, so
> that's not an option for me.
> 
>   How does one repair such a beast?

You are giving them the +15V DC input as well as the AC from the transformer?

If so, sounds like the crowbar is firing. One thing that will cause this is a dried-up
output capacitor (you get nasty spikes on the out thast trips the crowbar).

I am not sure what you are asking with the 'How does one repair [a DEC regulator
brick]'. The obvious answer is just like any other bit of electronics, but presumably
there is some specific problem that you have in mind.

-tony

From charles at uniwho.com  Thu Feb  5 15:54:35 2015
From: charles at uniwho.com (Charles)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 16:54:35 -0500
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ00N68OG4t9Wc8RDK-OrymRvycNTVzhn6nAkXDk+VoPNxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <CAKtEJ00-KOwzcF7Rv=1Uh_A3QncCfy83-KAfUxUZXiWigBJ5cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15DABEE6-0837-4D1A-A491-2F110B1D4D16@uniwho.com>
 <CAKtEJ00N68OG4t9Wc8RDK-OrymRvycNTVzhn6nAkXDk+VoPNxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <991D07B2-A3E9-4F0F-9D19-4DB85974238F@uniwho.com>

Well never argue with a know-it-all? 
is my point.

The next fact is, Radio Shack is dead.
So Automatically makes my issue with them valid.  
They mostly a waste of time.

just like an engineer that can?t even get a mouser order correct.
Maybe to many trips to the PUB? who knows? 

I guess your glass is half full.. and you are double fisting it. :)




On Feb 5, 2015, at 4:49 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Charles <charles at uniwho.com> wrote:
> 
>> well going along with what you are saying about the ability to buy a 10uf
>> cap
>> then on for drinks at the pub?.
>> 
>> Why not sell packs of 10, or HELL even packs of 5?
>> Why not buy all the caps for your PSU at radio shack? your point is MOOT
>> because you were going to the PUB anyways,  Lush.  :-)
>> 
>> And YOUR point - if any - is elusive.
> 
> 
>> On Feb 5, 2015, at 3:57 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 12:53 PM, Charles <charles at uniwho.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> yeah the 80?s kept their radio shack?.
>>>> 
>>>> 90?s kept their radio shack?
>>>> 
>>>> anything after that ? is like "Cell Phone Accessory Express?
>>>> if you are lucky they might have A switch or A capacitor?.  And MAYBE it
>>>> MIGHT be the value you actually need? but how many people re-cap their
>>>> power supply with ONE cap?
>>>> 
>>>> how many people need just one cap?
>>>> 
>>>> thinking about this is making me angry?.   I am glad radio shack is
>> gone?
>>>> rest in hell!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> If I'm (to use your example) recapping a power supply, I don't mind
>> making
>>> an order with Mouser.  But when I need a 10uF electrolytic (happened
>>> recently) I can drive for five minutes, drop a buck or so, stop for a
>> pint
>>> at the pub next door :-) and go fix stuff.  They even had a 7805 I needed
>>> for a project - less than $2, as I recall.  Mouser would charge me more
>> in
>>> postage.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
>>> Ph.D. Candidate
>>> The Information School
>>> University of Washington
>>> 
>>> An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
>>> engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
> Ph.D. Candidate
> The Information School
> University of Washington
> 
> An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
> engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Thu Feb  5 16:03:50 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 16:03:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <54D3E196.7020002@sydex.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D3E196.7020002@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051547470.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/05/2015 01:14 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
>
>> I don't have links to all the relevant documents handy, but 100W, 75W, 
>> 60W and 40W are all banned from import or manufacture in the US (rough 
>> service bulbs are exempt...for now at least). Stores are allowed to 
>> sell off existing stocks and inventory, and many chains stocked up 
>> heavily before the second half (60W/40W) of the light bulb ban took 
>> effect.
>
> A quick tour of my local big-box store shows that halogen versions of 
> these standard incandescents are available.  So a 72W halogen = 100W 
> standard; 43W halogen = 60W standard, etc.

The big box stores around here also still have a pretty good supply of 
plain 60W and 40W incandescent bulbs. I don't think their stock will last 
through the end of the year though. Also, the "light bulb ban" also banned 
PAR90 flood lamps (indoor downlights and outdoor floods). You can still 
obtain "74W" PAR floods, but those too will be banned once the entire law 
takes effect.

>> T12 (1-1/2" diameter) fluorescent light tubes and magnetic ballasts 
>> were also similarly banned under the 'Energy Independence and Security 
>> Act of 2007', and like with 60W and 40W incandescents, many chain 
>> stores stocked up heavily on T12 tubes. When they are gone though, they 
>> are gone (unless the law changes and consumers force the manufacturers 
>> to bring those product lines back).
>
> There are LOTS of them left in stock; I can go to any big-box store and 
> buy them.  The odd thing is that the more energy-efficient T8 lamps are 
> more expensive than the remaining T12s.  Converting from T12 to T8 is 
> mostly a matter of changing out the ballast--which you may want to do 
> anyway, as the old iron ballasts weren't terribly efficient and did have 
> a tendency to develop an annoying hum.

I noticed the same thing with big box stores and their prices for T8 
tubes. I don't have that issue here since I can buy fluorescent tubes by 
the case wholesale (same with ballasts). For a short time, there was a 
supply problem with T12 tubes, and many of the big box stores around here 
didn't have them at all (they have plenty right now though).

I recently converted all of my overhead T12 to T8 (in my case, new sockets 
and wiring along with new ballasts, since the fixtures were made ~1964 and 
the original wiring was in very bad condition) but what I worry about is 
the long term reliability of the electronic ballasts (basically switch 
mode power supplies), in particular, the small electrolytics they use. I 
don't expect they will last nearly as long as the original magnetic 
ballasts did (although at least they don't have the large PCB 
[polychlorinated biphenyl] containing oil filled capacitors the pre-1979 
ballasts I removed did).

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  5 16:16:02 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  5 Feb 2015 17:16:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
Message-ID: <20150205221602.1F62518C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Holm Tiffe

    > Hmm.. it looks to me as if the Board is missing the jumper W1

Err..... no. :-)

	Noel

From isking at uw.edu  Thu Feb  5 16:25:05 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 14:25:05 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <991D07B2-A3E9-4F0F-9D19-4DB85974238F@uniwho.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <CAKtEJ00-KOwzcF7Rv=1Uh_A3QncCfy83-KAfUxUZXiWigBJ5cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15DABEE6-0837-4D1A-A491-2F110B1D4D16@uniwho.com>
 <CAKtEJ00N68OG4t9Wc8RDK-OrymRvycNTVzhn6nAkXDk+VoPNxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <991D07B2-A3E9-4F0F-9D19-4DB85974238F@uniwho.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ01LW2QZXVm_qZkpD-AjsHcmS+m4Cx3DarcejBMBKiH5_Q@mail.gmail.com>

Plonk.

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Charles <charles at uniwho.com> wrote:

> Well never argue with a know-it-all?
> is my point.
>
> The next fact is, Radio Shack is dead.
> So Automatically makes my issue with them valid.
> They mostly a waste of time.
>
> just like an engineer that can?t even get a mouser order correct.
> Maybe to many trips to the PUB? who knows?
>
> I guess your glass is half full.. and you are double fisting it. :)
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 5, 2015, at 4:49 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Charles <charles at uniwho.com> wrote:
> >
> >> well going along with what you are saying about the ability to buy a
> 10uf
> >> cap
> >> then on for drinks at the pub?.
> >>
> >> Why not sell packs of 10, or HELL even packs of 5?
> >> Why not buy all the caps for your PSU at radio shack? your point is MOOT
> >> because you were going to the PUB anyways,  Lush.  :-)
> >>
> >> And YOUR point - if any - is elusive.
> >
> >
> >> On Feb 5, 2015, at 3:57 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 12:53 PM, Charles <charles at uniwho.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> yeah the 80?s kept their radio shack?.
> >>>>
> >>>> 90?s kept their radio shack?
> >>>>
> >>>> anything after that ? is like "Cell Phone Accessory Express?
> >>>> if you are lucky they might have A switch or A capacitor?.  And MAYBE
> it
> >>>> MIGHT be the value you actually need? but how many people re-cap their
> >>>> power supply with ONE cap?
> >>>>
> >>>> how many people need just one cap?
> >>>>
> >>>> thinking about this is making me angry?.   I am glad radio shack is
> >> gone?
> >>>> rest in hell!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> If I'm (to use your example) recapping a power supply, I don't mind
> >> making
> >>> an order with Mouser.  But when I need a 10uF electrolytic (happened
> >>> recently) I can drive for five minutes, drop a buck or so, stop for a
> >> pint
> >>> at the pub next door :-) and go fix stuff.  They even had a 7805 I
> needed
> >>> for a project - less than $2, as I recall.  Mouser would charge me more
> >> in
> >>> postage.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
> >>> Ph.D. Candidate
> >>> The Information School
> >>> University of Washington
> >>>
> >>> An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
> >>> engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
> > Ph.D. Candidate
> > The Information School
> > University of Washington
> >
> > An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
> > engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.
>
>


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  5 16:25:15 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 14:25:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <991D07B2-A3E9-4F0F-9D19-4DB85974238F@uniwho.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net> <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <CAKtEJ00-KOwzcF7Rv=1Uh_A3QncCfy83-KAfUxUZXiWigBJ5cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15DABEE6-0837-4D1A-A491-2F110B1D4D16@uniwho.com>
 <CAKtEJ00N68OG4t9Wc8RDK-OrymRvycNTVzhn6nAkXDk+VoPNxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <991D07B2-A3E9-4F0F-9D19-4DB85974238F@uniwho.com>
Message-ID: <20150205142422.R29257@shell.lmi.net>

> I guess your glass is half full.. and you are double fisting it. :)

There is no such thing as a glass half full;
there is no such thing as a glass half empty;
somebody just chose the wrong size of glass.




From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 16:29:05 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 16:29:05 -0600
Subject: DEC fan silliness
Message-ID: <77355C0D-9FE4-49A8-ACBA-5281F4256ABD@gmail.com>

So I've got a BA11-N chassis (18-bit, 9xQ-cd slots) and the cardcage fan has failed.

The damn thing is riveted in, I'm gonna have to drill.

Strangely, the power supply fan has bolts/nuts.

I've never seen DEC do something this silly before, but I'm sure there are stories out there...



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  5 16:31:04 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 14:31:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <20150205143039.Q29257@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Evan Koblentz wrote:
> So ..... Radio Shack is (more or less) finally dead.
> There are still plenty of RS stores open for business. (Although I read
> this morning that they're not getting new shipments, which makes them
> essentially clearance stores.) Apparently the company is legally allowed
> to close a maximum of 200 stores per year. Or something like that.

How many are there now?


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  5 16:33:47 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 14:33:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
Message-ID: <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Ali wrote:
> RadioShack had it essentially right in the 2014 Super Bowl commercial -
> the 80s called and they did want their store back. What they screwed up
> was thinking that meant the old store had to go and be replaced with the
> current monstrosity.
> RadioShack should have brought back the store of the 1980s and updated
> it items like cheap cables, Raspberry Pi kits, etc. I.E. hobbyist and do
> it yourself stuff. Yes, they still would have to close a number of
> locations (do you really need a ratshack on every corner?) but what
> would have been left behind would have thrived...

No, they would have had to take it back to the 1960s and 1970s.
By the 1980s, Radio Shack was already committed to changing from hobbyist
supplies to crappy consumer electronics.



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  5 16:36:08 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  5 Feb 2015 17:36:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
Message-ID: <20150205223608.D14F618C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: John Kaur

    > If anyone has worked up a led replacement for the '45, would be of
    > interest. The original incandescents are not easy to find

'Back in the day', there were LED replacements available - I have no idea who
from. They looked just like the bulbs, but had the red glass. (We replaced
all the lights in our 11/45 with them.) Anyone know who/where/what they were?
Or of a modern equivalent?

	Noel

From js at cimmeri.com  Thu Feb  5 16:37:58 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 17:37:58 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D3F0C6.8090302@cimmeri.com>



On 2/5/2015 4:47 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
>    Hey everyone, making some progress here -- thanks for all the tips so far!
>
>    Most of the power regulators are fine, but both H745 regulators seem to
> be toast.  Only getting -1.2 volts; should be -15 and they squeal angrily
> when I turn the pot.  The surplus shops seem to want $200 for one, so
> that's not an option for me.
>
>    How does one repair such a beast?

What a question!    Well, I usually 
start with the DEC manuals that explain 
the power supply circuits in detail.  I 
don't have an 11/45, but my 11/34 and 
11/05 manuals explain the various PSUs well.

- J.

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  5 17:29:20 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 15:29:20 -0800
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051547470.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D3E196.7020002@sydex.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051547470.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <54D3FCD0.30102@sydex.com>

On 02/05/2015 02:03 PM, Tothwolf wrote:

> I recently converted all of my overhead T12 to T8 (in my case, new
> sockets and wiring along with new ballasts, since the fixtures were made
> ~1964 and the original wiring was in very bad condition) but what I
> worry about is the long term reliability of the electronic ballasts
> (basically switch mode power supplies), in particular, the small
> electrolytics they use. I don't expect they will last nearly as long as
> the original magnetic ballasts did (although at least they don't have
> the large PCB [polychlorinated biphenyl] containing oil filled
> capacitors the pre-1979 ballasts I removed did).

Well, I first converted all of mine to T8 using surplus GE industrial 
ballasts from the 90s.  So far, so good--no failures in over a decade.. 
  A peek inside shows them to be pretty well constructed.  On the other 
hand, I picked up a lot of "SASI" brand ones about 5 years later and 
they've pretty much all failed. The most common cause seems to be the 
failure of an 0.5 ohm 5W power resistor, which I assume is used for 
current-sensing.

I will give the T8 lamps this--they use less power and last longer than 
the T12s.  About the only reason that I've had to change them is when 
the light output has fallen off noticeably.  But then, you'd replace an 
LED fixture for the same reason--assuming that it lasted that long.

It seems that in this case, you get what you pay for.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  5 17:32:34 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 15:32:34 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <15DABEE6-0837-4D1A-A491-2F110B1D4D16@uniwho.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <CAKtEJ00-KOwzcF7Rv=1Uh_A3QncCfy83-KAfUxUZXiWigBJ5cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15DABEE6-0837-4D1A-A491-2F110B1D4D16@uniwho.com>
Message-ID: <54D3FD92.6020701@sydex.com>

Hmmm, I still have a 16-bit ISA card-edge connector in its blue RS 
blister pack sitting on my desk--and I'm listening to the (internet) 
radio on a Realistic all-band receiver.

Shows how often I clean my desk off...

--Chuck



From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 17:40:47 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 18:40:47 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B31EA@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B31EA@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfA-pk3Gx7BB3GKn-kfk-teBGr_5q8wu0p3NEvXkOYj2JA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 4:54 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>
> You are giving them the +15V DC input as well as the AC from the
> transformer?
>
> If so, sounds like the crowbar is firing. One thing that will cause this
> is a dried-up
> output capacitor (you get nasty spikes on the out thast trips the crowbar).
>
> I am not sure what you are asking with the 'How does one repair [a DEC
> regulator
> brick]'. The obvious answer is just like any other bit of electronics, but
> presumably
> there is some specific problem that you have in mind.
>
> -tony
>


  OK, please forgive my ignorance, here.  To give you some idea of my
electronics expertise level, I'd like you to know that I just googled
crowbar :D

  Now, I'm handy with a soldering iron and understand these sorts of things
OK once I have a run through, but I just have no idea where to begin.  So
again, forgive me, but I'm going to ask some very green questions.  I'm
sure you guys are going to want to strangle me or laugh me out of the room,
but, hey, I'm trying, darn it, so please don't plonk me!

  From the wikipedia article I read, I guess this crowbar thing tripping,
is just its way of trying to protect the rest of the system from
overcurrent, right?

  And the dried up cap is one thing what could make it think there was an
overcurrent situation, correct?

 I'v had a little luck in the past with such things, but I don't know that
I'm going to understand how to read the schematic.  I'm going to try and
find one now.  Also going to try to find a manual that describes the power
supply.  But how do I know which one is the output cap?  What is a valid
test once I find it?  I guess I could charge it up on a car battery and see
how long it holds or something like that.

  I don't have much electronics gear here.  Borrowed a Craftsman digital
VOM from my electrician friend (although it's telling me I have 140v AC on
the mains!) and I have a soldering iron, heated desoldering bulb thing and
some desoldering braid, flux and lead solder.

BTW, according to this VOM, there's 24.5 AC and 14.2 volts DC being input
into the H745 regulator.  Is this too low?  Maybe this has something to do
with the H742 adjustment that I didn't find?  Or maybe this VOM is
miscalibrated.

thx
jake

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Thu Feb  5 17:43:55 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 23:43:55 +0000
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <54D4003B.2010509@btinternet.com>

On 05/02/2015 22:33, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Ali wrote:
>> RadioShack had it essentially right in the 2014 Super Bowl commercial -
>> the 80s called and they did want their store back. What they screwed up
>> was thinking that meant the old store had to go and be replaced with the
>> current monstrosity.
>> RadioShack should have brought back the store of the 1980s and updated
>> it items like cheap cables, Raspberry Pi kits, etc. I.E. hobbyist and do
>> it yourself stuff. Yes, they still would have to close a number of
>> locations (do you really need a ratshack on every corner?) but what
>> would have been left behind would have thrived...
> No, they would have had to take it back to the 1960s and 1970s.
> By the 1980s, Radio Shack was already committed to changing from hobbyist
> supplies to crappy consumer electronics.
>
>
Radio Shack  or as they were known in the UK - Tandy - Are long gone 
from here.
We have a UK alternative called Maplin. They have recently moved into being
flashy high stores selling own brand consumer electronics and mobile phone
accessories. The component side in the store is minimal.

Their on line store is still good for some hard to get components.
We do have Farnell, CPC and RS components,
They are mail order only but have huge number of different stock lines.

I also buy within the EEC as there is no customs duty to pay and VAT is 
the same as here or less.



From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 17:46:15 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 18:46:15 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfA-pk3Gx7BB3GKn-kfk-teBGr_5q8wu0p3NEvXkOYj2JA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B31EA@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CAHYQbfA-pk3Gx7BB3GKn-kfk-teBGr_5q8wu0p3NEvXkOYj2JA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfBdbaMqjbxL0aDMR4kK-nvwm0hWuQsNeyLPjwAaaCJ7UA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 6:40 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:

 (although it's telling me I have 140v AC on the mains!)

Never mind that misreading - I must've had the dial set backwards.  It's
reading 125v AC on mains.

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Feb  5 17:52:00 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 16:52:00 -0700
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <54D40220.3070105@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/5/2015 3:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Ali wrote:
>> RadioShack had it essentially right in the 2014 Super Bowl commercial -
>> the 80s called and they did want their store back. What they screwed up
>> was thinking that meant the old store had to go and be replaced with the
>> current monstrosity.
>> RadioShack should have brought back the store of the 1980s and updated
>> it items like cheap cables, Raspberry Pi kits, etc. I.E. hobbyist and do
>> it yourself stuff. Yes, they still would have to close a number of
>> locations (do you really need a ratshack on every corner?) but what
>> would have been left behind would have thrived...
>
> No, they would have had to take it back to the 1960s and 1970s.
> By the 1980s, Radio Shack was already committed to changing from hobbyist
> supplies to crappy consumer electronics.

I thought they started in the 70's ... The name brand stuff was always 
remarked surplus.
Ben.


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 17:54:23 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 17:54:23 -0600
Subject: Prime?
In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
Message-ID: <54D402AF.7020407@gmail.com>

On 02/05/2015 09:59 AM, Bob Brown wrote:
> Anyone know of any actual prime hardware out there?

I helped pick up a 750 for NMoC in the UK back in 2005 - having been based 
in the US now for a few years though, I'm not sure what its current status 
is and if it's still just a static exhibit (or even on display at all).

It was in good physical shape and had a tape unit, but if I remember right 
there was no disk or console, and I don't know if any parts from other 
sources have shown up in the meantime (or if there are any workarounds 
using non-Prime hardware)

cheers

Jules




From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  5 18:16:53 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  5 Feb 2015 19:16:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
Message-ID: <20150206001653.D625418C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jacob Ritorto

    > I guess this crowbar thing tripping, is just its way of trying to
    > protect the rest of the system from overcurrent, right?

Over-voltage. Voltage != current. :-)

    > And the dried up cap is one thing what could make it think there was an
    > overcurrent situation, correct?

I think the concept is that the cap could have shorted out, thereby causing a
too-high voltage to pass through it - or something like that! :-) In general,
cause the circuit to mis-behave.

    > I don't know that I'm going to understand how to read the schematic.
 
I struggle with the analog circuits too. Just keep plugging away at it, each
will slowly start to make sense. (Not the most complicated/sophisticated
aspects, but if you understand a lot of what's going on, I'm sure someone
here can help on the tricky bits.)

    > Also going to try to find a manual that describes the power supply.

DEC's maintainence/technical manuals are very good indeed for explaining how
the analog circuits work - especially for those of us who can't just glance at
a schematic and instantly, intuitively understand how the whole thing
works. For me, reading them is really pretty much a must before trying to
debug/repair analog stuff.

    > But what is a valid test once I find it?

This is where you need test instruments; an ESR meter (although that's not a
universal solvent), a capacitance meter, etc, etc. (Also an ohmmeter, to
check for shorted caps.)


    > I don't have much electronics gear here.

If you seriously expect to repair something like an 11/45, at a _minimum_ you
need a decent 'scope. Don't even _try_ thinking you can do it without one.
Fuhgeddaboutit.

I like Tektronix 465's - they are common on eBay, and if you're patient, you
can get one for $60-70. They are also a 'scope much used on these machines
BITD. (We did.)

Past that? Well, there are things that are nice to have (e.g. a de-soldering
station), but you can often work around them (e.g. a pair of dikes and a
solder sucker). A logic analyser would be nice, and I keep meaning to get one,
but I haven't, yet, so they aren't essential. (Although for _some_ faults, a
'scope just doesn't cut it. If you can write a loop, fine. If not... time for
a logic analyzer.)

I'm trying to think what else is absolutely essential, past the 'scope (and
the meter - you ought to buy your own, they aren't that much). Nothing comes
to mind immediately - perhaps someone else here can add to the list.

	Noel

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 18:23:12 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 19:23:12 -0500
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D3FD92.6020701@sydex.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <CAKtEJ00-KOwzcF7Rv=1Uh_A3QncCfy83-KAfUxUZXiWigBJ5cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15DABEE6-0837-4D1A-A491-2F110B1D4D16@uniwho.com>
 <54D3FD92.6020701@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcwGKLZeBjFJoQN6kjo0VzMAHGCp=OzMfmRh3ADrY_JeQ@mail.gmail.com>

> Hmmm, I still have a 16-bit ISA card-edge connector in its blue RS blister
> pack sitting on my desk--and I'm listening to the (internet) radio on a
> Realistic all-band receiver.

And if you have any bad Radio Shack tubes with the Lifetime label, you
better turn them in!

Yes, they still honor the warranty. Just be prepared to spend about an
hour in the store, as the poor guy has to call the head office, as no
doubt, he will be extra clueless. Every year they have to honor a few
dozen tube claims.

--
Will

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 18:27:39 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 18:27:39 -0600
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcwGKLZeBjFJoQN6kjo0VzMAHGCp=OzMfmRh3ADrY_JeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <CAKtEJ00-KOwzcF7Rv=1Uh_A3QncCfy83-KAfUxUZXiWigBJ5cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15DABEE6-0837-4D1A-A491-2F110B1D4D16@uniwho.com>
 <54D3FD92.6020701@sydex.com>
 <CANij+dcwGKLZeBjFJoQN6kjo0VzMAHGCp=OzMfmRh3ADrY_JeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUzJkLCBGxqwm_4MGN-GHx_u7kq2AgVYDAvsPruO+hUnEQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 6:23 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Yes, they still honor the warranty. Just be prepared to spend about an
> hour in the store, as the poor guy has to call the head office, as no
> doubt, he will be extra clueless. Every year they have to honor a few
> dozen tube claims.


How do they honor the warranty? Cash back, new tube, something else?

Kyle

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 18:30:43 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 19:30:43 -0500
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUzJkLCBGxqwm_4MGN-GHx_u7kq2AgVYDAvsPruO+hUnEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <CAKtEJ00-KOwzcF7Rv=1Uh_A3QncCfy83-KAfUxUZXiWigBJ5cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15DABEE6-0837-4D1A-A491-2F110B1D4D16@uniwho.com>
 <54D3FD92.6020701@sydex.com>
 <CANij+dcwGKLZeBjFJoQN6kjo0VzMAHGCp=OzMfmRh3ADrY_JeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUzJkLCBGxqwm_4MGN-GHx_u7kq2AgVYDAvsPruO+hUnEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+deuocDgFYOXMTjqL2QhOYaCfhTGvnVxt7DV2bxDBaXWXQ@mail.gmail.com>

New tube. The guy that supplies the tubes (a well known tube dealer)
likes it, because he can get rid of less-than-wanted NOS  Radio Shack
tubes in his stock.

--
Will

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Kyle Owen <kylevowen at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 6:23 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, they still honor the warranty. Just be prepared to spend about an
>> hour in the store, as the poor guy has to call the head office, as no
>> doubt, he will be extra clueless. Every year they have to honor a few
>> dozen tube claims.
>
>
> How do they honor the warranty? Cash back, new tube, something else?
>
> Kyle

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 18:35:19 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 18:35:19 -0600
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deuocDgFYOXMTjqL2QhOYaCfhTGvnVxt7DV2bxDBaXWXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <CAKtEJ00-KOwzcF7Rv=1Uh_A3QncCfy83-KAfUxUZXiWigBJ5cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15DABEE6-0837-4D1A-A491-2F110B1D4D16@uniwho.com>
 <54D3FD92.6020701@sydex.com>
 <CANij+dcwGKLZeBjFJoQN6kjo0VzMAHGCp=OzMfmRh3ADrY_JeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUzJkLCBGxqwm_4MGN-GHx_u7kq2AgVYDAvsPruO+hUnEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deuocDgFYOXMTjqL2QhOYaCfhTGvnVxt7DV2bxDBaXWXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUxQ7zM3jmZM0u3rYw3q1R_pJwKH42pQbF6tpxLK2bGF8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 6:30 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> New tube. The guy that supplies the tubes (a well known tube dealer)
> likes it, because he can get rid of less-than-wanted NOS  Radio Shack
> tubes in his stock.


Cool. Now's the time to go through my (fairly small) collection. I think I
have a couple of Lifetime tubes in there. Just got a TV-7D/U recently too,
so that'll help for sure.

Kyle

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 18:38:15 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 19:38:15 -0500
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUxQ7zM3jmZM0u3rYw3q1R_pJwKH42pQbF6tpxLK2bGF8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <CAKtEJ00-KOwzcF7Rv=1Uh_A3QncCfy83-KAfUxUZXiWigBJ5cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15DABEE6-0837-4D1A-A491-2F110B1D4D16@uniwho.com>
 <54D3FD92.6020701@sydex.com>
 <CANij+dcwGKLZeBjFJoQN6kjo0VzMAHGCp=OzMfmRh3ADrY_JeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUzJkLCBGxqwm_4MGN-GHx_u7kq2AgVYDAvsPruO+hUnEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deuocDgFYOXMTjqL2QhOYaCfhTGvnVxt7DV2bxDBaXWXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUxQ7zM3jmZM0u3rYw3q1R_pJwKH42pQbF6tpxLK2bGF8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+deSE_nar8b=+vrn-8j22FZ+=Mxsq7N_6TMVBSi3j0z0ig@mail.gmail.com>

Just be careful with the label - they will not honor the Radio Shack
"long lasting" tubes!

--
Will

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 7:35 PM, Kyle Owen <kylevowen at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 6:30 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> New tube. The guy that supplies the tubes (a well known tube dealer)
>> likes it, because he can get rid of less-than-wanted NOS  Radio Shack
>> tubes in his stock.
>
>
> Cool. Now's the time to go through my (fairly small) collection. I think I
> have a couple of Lifetime tubes in there. Just got a TV-7D/U recently too,
> so that'll help for sure.
>
> Kyle

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Feb  5 19:04:51 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 17:04:51 -0800
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150205221602.1F62518C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150205221602.1F62518C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <10EE78DA-4AE0-4756-8508-43A468254E05@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-05, at 2:16 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>> From: Holm Tiffe
> 
>> Hmm.. it looks to me as if the Board is missing the jumper W1
> 
> Err..... no. :-)

Well, try removing W1 to isolate the output of the xtal oscillator E15 from inverter input pin E4.4.
Then scope the output from the xtal oscillator to see if it's OK.

If you're not familiar with them, E15 is an integrated xtal oscillator, not just a crystal - the crystal and oscillator logic are both in that can, the output should be a nice square-wave/pulse at logic levels. Those cans generally have the four corner pins/wires present for mounting stability, +5 and GND are in the usual places, pin 8 the output. (Also confirm +5/GND are good at the appropriate pins.)

Could also (with W1 removed) pull E4.4 hi/lo while watching the inverter output E4.16 to see if it responds correctly with the inversion.


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  5 19:41:00 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  5 Feb 2015 20:41:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
Message-ID: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Brent Hilpert

    > Well, try removing W1 to isolate the output of the xtal oscillator E15
    > from inverter input pin E4.4.

Thanks! Too late to try it today, but first thing tomorrow..

It seems like every time you answer one of my queries, I smack my forehead
and say 'That's an excellent idea! Why didn't _I_ think of that!?!?' :-)

    > If you're not familiar with them, E15 is an integrated xtal oscillator,
    > not just a crystal - the crystal and oscillator logic are both in that
    > can

I'm not familiar, so thanks for the tip. Wonder where I'll find one if that's
what's bad... :-)

    > Could also (with W1 removed) pull E4.4 hi/lo while watching the
    > inverter output E4.16 to see if it responds correctly with the
    > inversion.

Since it's a tri-state, I may need to hit the enable somehow. Oh, wait, I
see, it's hard-wired on via a pull-down. (I wonder why they needed a
pull-down? And I wonder what the test point is there for?) And I guess I need
like a 5K series pull-up resistor to +5, right? (Ground I can just tie
directly, right?)

Anyway, thanks again for the help - very, very useful.

	Noel

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Feb  5 19:50:41 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 19:50:41 -0600
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B30D2@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <20150205161512.5211818C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,
 <54D3ABBD.1080203@pico-systems.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B30D2@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <54D41DF1.6070402@pico-systems.com>

On 02/05/2015 12:08 PM, tony duell wrote:
> [Dual Unibus on the 11/45]
>
>> Gee, our 11/45 (SN343) didn't have this, as far as I know.
>> This sounds more like an
>> 11/70.
> My 11/45 (S/N 315) most certainly does have the capability for
> dual Unibus, but I have the M9200 jumper fitted. You only get
> the dual Unibus if you have the special 11/45 memory boards,
> which I don't.
>
> -tony
>
Yes, we definitely did not have any dual-port memory on 
ours.  I guess I do
remember some kind of special jumper module that straddled 2 
connectors.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Feb  5 19:55:44 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 19:55:44 -0600
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <CAPgw8HMJRdvicyx5hqGmKJHLVYwW1CPCEpJfsavEL63+qn+arg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAPgw8HMJRdvicyx5hqGmKJHLVYwW1CPCEpJfsavEL63+qn+arg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D41F20.6090009@pico-systems.com>

On 02/05/2015 01:05 PM, John Kaur wrote:
> If anyone has worked up a led replacement for the '45, would be of interest.
> The original incandescents are not easy to find, even tho have a couple
> left.
>
You take standard 5mm LEDs, cut one lead real short and 
solder a 1/4W or
1/10W resistor to that lead.  If your console has sockets 
for the lamps,
this combo can be plugged into the socket after the leads 
are trimmed to
the right length.  if no sockets, then they can be soldered 
into the PC
board.  The resistor value needs to be figured out by trial 
and error,
due to the variations in LED efficiency.  if the console has 
heep-alive
resistors that keep the filaments slightly warm, these will 
need to be
removed, as they will keep the LEDs partly lit.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Feb  5 20:04:39 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 20:04:39 -0600
Subject: Incandescent lights
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com>

On 02/05/2015 03:14 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
>
> I don't have links to all the relevant documents handy, 
> but 100W, 75W, 60W and 40W are all banned from import or 
> manufacture in the US (rough service bulbs are 
> exempt...for now at least). Stores are allowed to sell off 
> existing stocks and inventory, and many chains stocked up 
> heavily before the second half (60W/40W) of the light bulb 
> ban took effect.
>
I have VERY few incandescents here.  I have started 
converting our kitchen
(where the lights are on a LOT of the day) to LED.  I 
couldn't find anything
I liked (some LED fixtures are actually on recall as a fire 
hazard) so I
built my own.  I made a 10 LED fixture with Cree 1W LEDs 
first for our
pantry/laundry room, which had the worst lighting in the 
house.  (A recessed
fixture too cramped to fit a CFL, and made so it lit a spot 
on the floor and
not the room.)  I built my own constant current source for 
it, and it was
a huge success.  So, then I built two retrofits for dual 48" 
fluorescent tubes.
These have a string of 20 1 W Cree LEDs and a commercial LED 
lighting
power supply.  The old magnetic ballast drew 103 W, the new 
LED system
shows 21 W, and the lights actually appear brighter than the 
fluorescents.

I was worried that the color temperature would be horrible, 
the LEDs look
real blue if you look at them, but with the fixture, 
diffuser and the
whole room, they look perfectly normal.  (Warning, if you 
look right
AT the LEDs, you will only be seeing spots for a couple 
minutes, they
are blindingly bright.)

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Feb  5 20:08:20 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 20:08:20 -0600
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfAwTp8AEQS8+iMwJpoV=d3ec7QNn3BB_8z-D9sz0VHacw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2DCEB.1060104@pico-systems.com>
 <CAHYQbfC7ABwDC2yxX+gyXrN6w=w6d=z=fssX1EUKRqwxHVdocA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051515510.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <CAHYQbfAwTp8AEQS8+iMwJpoV=d3ec7QNn3BB_8z-D9sz0VHacw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D42214.80108@pico-systems.com>

On 02/05/2015 03:45 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> excellent information - thanks!
>
>
If you really want to fix it ONCE and for all time, 
gold-plated contacts should
be available for the Mate-n-Lock connectors.  Replace all of 
them, and you'll
never have this trouble again.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Feb  5 20:10:37 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 20:10:37 -0600
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D4229D.5040500@pico-systems.com>

On 02/05/2015 03:47 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
>    Hey everyone, making some progress here -- thanks for all the tips so far!
>
>    Most of the power regulators are fine, but both H745 regulators seem to
> be toast.  Only getting -1.2 volts; should be -15 and they squeal angrily
> when I turn the pot.  The surplus shops seem to want $200 for one, so
> that's not an option for me.
>
>
If they belch smoke, then they are toast.  Possibly the 
overvoltage crowbar is tripping,
or there is a short somewhere else.  Did you test these 
outside the machine or with
the CPU hooked up?  I think the -15 reg needs +15 to operate 
correctly, as somebody
mentioned earlier.

Jon

From derschjo at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 21:28:17 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 19:28:17 -0800
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
Message-ID: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>

I picked up a "large" machine* (for certain definitions of large) that's 
currently configured for 220-240V; my house at the moment lacks 220V 
receptacles.  I was already planning to get an electrician out here to 
put in some beefier wiring at some point (I have a couple of machines 
that draw 15-20A off of 120V that I'd like to be able to run) but I 
wasn't yet planning on doing 220V unless I have to.

(It looks like in theory it's possible to reconfigure the supply for 
120V but I lack the docs to do so with any level of confidence...)

I don't know if this machine works, and I'd rather not invest in 220V 
wiring quite yet unless it does.  And, let's face it, I'm spoiled and I 
demand instant gratification and I'd like to know as soon as possible if 
this machine is a basket case or not.

So:  since all this stuff is in the basement, I'm just about 15 feet 
away from the dryer, which at first glance runs off an outlet that meets 
my needs.  I even have a NEMA 10-30p plug here that I could wire up to 
the existing power cable for the computer.  But looking into it I have 
doubts that it's actually that simple; in particular since this house 
was built well before 1996 and so the outlet is not grounded; there's a 
neutral lug and two hot lugs (I assume two 120V A/C lines out of phase?) 
and I'm guessing that might not sit well with the power supply in this 
computer.

But then, I'm a rank amateur when it comes to house wiring and A/C and 
power supplies and all of that so I thought I'd ask the cctalk 
collective whether this can be made to work or if I should simply wait 
for a professional to take care of it...

Thanks as always,
Josh


* An AMT DAP 610, if you must ask.  It's an array processor from the 
late 80s, with 64x64 1-bit processors.  If the machine doesn't run I'm 
pretty much SOL for spare parts, schematics, service manuals, or 
anything beyond customer-level documentation (which I've recently 
scanned, btw, if anyone's curious...)

From drb at msu.edu  Thu Feb  5 21:36:47 2015
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 22:36:47 -0500
Subject: Prime?
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 05 Feb 2015 17:54:23 -0600.)
 <54D402AF.7020407@gmail.com>
References: <54D402AF.7020407@gmail.com>
 <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
Message-ID: <20150206033647.89B03A58094@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > I helped pick up a 750 for NMoC in the UK back in 2005 - having been
 > based in the US now for a few years though, I'm not sure what its
 > current status is and if it's still just a static exhibit (or even on
 > display at all).

I'd also like to know what happened to the office-class machine from
Salford University that sold on ebay some years back.  It passed through
the hands of two owners in a year, and I haven't heard of it since. I
think it had hardware problems, but there was some hope that the disks
might contain the Salford compilers.

De

From dave at 661.org  Thu Feb  5 21:39:33 2015
From: dave at 661.org (Dave G.)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 03:39:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060339260.31519@nyx.feedle.net>

On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Ian S. King wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> wrote:
>
>> So ..... Radio Shack is (more or less) finally dead.
>>
>> There are still plenty of RS stores open for business. (Although I read
>> this morning that they're not getting new shipments, which makes them
>> essentially clearance stores.) Apparently the company is legally allowed to
>> close a maximum of 200 stores per year. Or something like that.
>>
>> Horn-tooting: the Wall Street Journal interviewed me about RS back at
>> World Maker Faire last fall. They published the story online today and
>> it'll be in print tomorrow.
>>
>> http://www.wsj.com/articles/strategic-confusion-put-
>> radioshack-at-the-mercy-of-lenders-1423164004
>>
>> Scroll aaaaaaaaaaaall the way down to the bottom. (LOL, yeah, I'm
>> important!)
>>
>
> Behind a paywall, y'all....

http://www.jongales.com/blog/2014/02/13/how-to-get-around-the-wsj-paywall/

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 21:40:18 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 22:40:18 -0500
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUxQ7zM3jmZM0u3rYw3q1R_pJwKH42pQbF6tpxLK2bGF8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <CAKtEJ00-KOwzcF7Rv=1Uh_A3QncCfy83-KAfUxUZXiWigBJ5cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15DABEE6-0837-4D1A-A491-2F110B1D4D16@uniwho.com>
 <54D3FD92.6020701@sydex.com>
 <CANij+dcwGKLZeBjFJoQN6kjo0VzMAHGCp=OzMfmRh3ADrY_JeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUzJkLCBGxqwm_4MGN-GHx_u7kq2AgVYDAvsPruO+hUnEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deuocDgFYOXMTjqL2QhOYaCfhTGvnVxt7DV2bxDBaXWXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUxQ7zM3jmZM0u3rYw3q1R_pJwKH42pQbF6tpxLK2bGF8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddFHnM15drsxTKxJVM-QRz+XbqLtTHpdn4fCwN=Smhfaw@mail.gmail.com>

Frankly, it is probably not worth your time, unless you gave some
higher value tubes to replace, like 6L6GCs or sweep tubes. If you just
need little popcorn tubes, just talk to me.

--
Will

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 7:35 PM, Kyle Owen <kylevowen at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 6:30 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> New tube. The guy that supplies the tubes (a well known tube dealer)
>> likes it, because he can get rid of less-than-wanted NOS  Radio Shack
>> tubes in his stock.
>
>
> Cool. Now's the time to go through my (fairly small) collection. I think I
> have a couple of Lifetime tubes in there. Just got a TV-7D/U recently too,
> so that'll help for sure.
>
> Kyle

From dave at 661.org  Thu Feb  5 21:52:26 2015
From: dave at 661.org (Dave G.)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 03:52:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060339260.31519@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060339260.31519@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060352030.31519@nyx.feedle.net>

On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Dave G. wrote:

>>> http://www.wsj.com/articles/strategic-confusion-put-
>>> radioshack-at-the-mercy-of-lenders-1423164004
>>> 
>>> Scroll aaaaaaaaaaaall the way down to the bottom. (LOL, yeah, I'm
>>> important!)
>>> 
>> 
>> Behind a paywall, y'all....
>
> http://www.jongales.com/blog/2014/02/13/how-to-get-around-the-wsj-paywall/

Sorry.  This one works better: 
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/refcontrol

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 21:59:04 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 22:59:04 -0500
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfD19pd91=VhdCDa033=U=YcSxiZXgZNiG3isF-9D0Z3gA@mail.gmail.com>

  What you're describing seems perfect to me, power-wise.  I use that sort
of 220 setup for arc welders and such.

( ### Before trying test below, keep one hand in pocket if you're new at
this - don't risk getting one leg of mains power through each hand and
across your heart, which can make it stop ### )

    When you put your meter across the two hot wires, do you get something
in the 220 to 240 AC volts range?  If yes (obviously dryer wouldn't run,
otherwise), you're good and that would pretty much be your answer.  For
extra safety, plug the meter probes in with the breaker off, then turn
breaker on and read it so you don't ever have to touch anything dangerous.

  If you're reading 220-240 and you want to go forward with testing the
computer, I guess the lack of chassis grounding you're describing could be
an annoyance, but if you have good old steel pipe for your water service,
you could just ground the chassis to that with a clamp for a quick power-up
test.

 Then if your machine's ok, get the electrician in there and have it set up
to code.

  Since I'm not an electrician, I'd wait for a little more corroboration
than just my $0.02, though.  My level of training is "back-yard" at best.

--jake


On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 10:28 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> I picked up a "large" machine* (for certain definitions of large) that's
> currently configured for 220-240V; my house at the moment lacks 220V
> receptacles.  I was already planning to get an electrician out here to put
> in some beefier wiring at some point (I have a couple of machines that draw
> 15-20A off of 120V that I'd like to be able to run) but I wasn't yet
> planning on doing 220V unless I have to.
>
> (It looks like in theory it's possible to reconfigure the supply for 120V
> but I lack the docs to do so with any level of confidence...)
>
> I don't know if this machine works, and I'd rather not invest in 220V
> wiring quite yet unless it does.  And, let's face it, I'm spoiled and I
> demand instant gratification and I'd like to know as soon as possible if
> this machine is a basket case or not.
>
> So:  since all this stuff is in the basement, I'm just about 15 feet away
> from the dryer, which at first glance runs off an outlet that meets my
> needs.  I even have a NEMA 10-30p plug here that I could wire up to the
> existing power cable for the computer.  But looking into it I have doubts
> that it's actually that simple; in particular since this house was built
> well before 1996 and so the outlet is not grounded; there's a neutral lug
> and two hot lugs (I assume two 120V A/C lines out of phase?) and I'm
> guessing that might not sit well with the power supply in this computer.
>
> But then, I'm a rank amateur when it comes to house wiring and A/C and
> power supplies and all of that so I thought I'd ask the cctalk collective
> whether this can be made to work or if I should simply wait for a
> professional to take care of it...
>
> Thanks as always,
> Josh
>
>
> * An AMT DAP 610, if you must ask.  It's an array processor from the late
> 80s, with 64x64 1-bit processors.  If the machine doesn't run I'm pretty
> much SOL for spare parts, schematics, service manuals, or anything beyond
> customer-level documentation (which I've recently scanned, btw, if anyone's
> curious...)
>

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Feb  5 22:00:17 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 20:00:17 -0800
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AE515E57-CC7F-4AAA-A855-5563C5CDB83B@cs.ubc.ca>


On 2015-Feb-05, at 7:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:

> I picked up a "large" machine* (for certain definitions of large) that's currently configured for 220-240V; my house at the moment lacks 220V receptacles.  I was already planning to get an electrician out here to put in some beefier wiring at some point (I have a couple of machines that draw 15-20A off of 120V that I'd like to be able to run) but I wasn't yet planning on doing 220V unless I have to.
> 
> (It looks like in theory it's possible to reconfigure the supply for 120V but I lack the docs to do so with any level of confidence...)
> 
> I don't know if this machine works, and I'd rather not invest in 220V wiring quite yet unless it does.  

In theory, if you have two 20A 120V circuits installed, you could also have 220V 20A from the same circuit(s) at the additional expense of just a 220V socket.
However, local codes may have something to say about such an arrangement.


> And, let's face it, I'm spoiled and I demand instant gratification and I'd like to know as soon as possible if this machine is a basket case or not.
> 
> So:  since all this stuff is in the basement, I'm just about 15 feet away from the dryer, which at first glance runs off an outlet that meets my needs.  I even have a NEMA 10-30p plug here that I could wire up to the existing power cable for the computer.  But looking into it I have doubts that it's actually that simple; in particular since this house was built well before 1996 and so the outlet is not grounded; there's a neutral lug and two hot lugs (I assume two 120V A/C lines out of phase?) and I'm guessing that might not sit well with the power supply in this computer.

Yes, the two hots are 120VAC to neutral each, 180 degrees out of phase, giving 240 between the two hots.

Yes, you should be able to use those two hots to power the target machine, as long as the 240 input lines for the target are isolated from ground. Normally this will be the case, I just mention it in case there is some strange circumstance where one side of the target input is connected to ground. Measure the R between chassis and the two line inputs, it should be very high R on both.

Is the existing plug/line input to the the target 3-wire (2 hot + GND) or 4-wire (2 hot + neutral + GND)?
And have you confirmed that one wire IS GND/chassis? (it could conceivably be 2 hot + neutral).


> But then, I'm a rank amateur when it comes to house wiring and A/C and power supplies and all of that so I thought I'd ask the cctalk collective whether this can be made to work or if I should simply wait for a professional to take care of it...
> 
> Thanks as always,
> Josh
> 
> 
> * An AMT DAP 610, if you must ask.  It's an array processor from the late 80s, with 64x64 1-bit processors.  If the machine doesn't run I'm pretty much SOL for spare parts, schematics, service manuals, or anything beyond customer-level documentation (which I've recently scanned, btw, if anyone's curious...)


From evan at snarc.net  Thu Feb  5 22:10:24 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 23:10:24 -0500
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060352030.31519@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060339260.31519@nyx.feedle.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060352030.31519@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <54D43EB0.6050702@snarc.net>


>
>>>> http://www.wsj.com/articles/strategic-confusion-put-
>>>> radioshack-at-the-mercy-of-lenders-1423164004
>>>>
>>>> Scroll aaaaaaaaaaaall the way down to the bottom. (LOL, yeah, I'm
>>>> important!)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Behind a paywall, y'all....
>>
>> http://www.jongales.com/blog/2014/02/13/how-to-get-around-the-wsj-paywall/ 
>>
>
> Sorry.  This one works better: 
> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/refcontrol

Thanks for the tips.

< horn tootin' >

I copied the article text and PDF'd it, in case I can't get to the page 
later. (I keep a list of media interviews at snarc.net.) I'll also be on 
CBS radio sometime tonight or tomorrow.

< / horn tootin' >

From dave at 661.org  Thu Feb  5 22:13:16 2015
From: dave at 661.org (Dave G.)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 04:13:16 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060412270.31519@nyx.feedle.net>

On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Charles wrote:

> yeah the 80?s kept their radio shack?.
>
> 90?s kept their radio shack?
>
> anything after that ? is like "Cell Phone Accessory Express?
> if you are lucky they might have A switch or A capacitor?.  And MAYBE it MIGHT be the value you actually need? but how many people re-cap their power supply with ONE cap?
>
> how many people need just one cap?
>
> thinking about this is making me angry?.  I am glad radio shack is gone? 
> rest in hell!

I often have episodes of "dammit! that was my last xx uF cap!" and then I 
go to Radio Shack to see if I can find it.


-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From derschjo at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 22:16:00 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 20:16:00 -0800
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <AE515E57-CC7F-4AAA-A855-5563C5CDB83B@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
 <AE515E57-CC7F-4AAA-A855-5563C5CDB83B@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54D44000.4020209@gmail.com>

On 2/5/2015 8:00 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> On 2015-Feb-05, at 7:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>
>> I picked up a "large" machine* (for certain definitions of large) that's currently configured for 220-240V; my house at the moment lacks 220V receptacles.  I was already planning to get an electrician out here to put in some beefier wiring at some point (I have a couple of machines that draw 15-20A off of 120V that I'd like to be able to run) but I wasn't yet planning on doing 220V unless I have to.
>>
>> (It looks like in theory it's possible to reconfigure the supply for 120V but I lack the docs to do so with any level of confidence...)
>>
>> I don't know if this machine works, and I'd rather not invest in 220V wiring quite yet unless it does.
> In theory, if you have two 20A 120V circuits installed, you could also have 220V 20A from the same circuit(s) at the additional expense of just a 220V socket.
> However, local codes may have something to say about such an arrangement.
>
>
>> And, let's face it, I'm spoiled and I demand instant gratification and I'd like to know as soon as possible if this machine is a basket case or not.
>>
>> So:  since all this stuff is in the basement, I'm just about 15 feet away from the dryer, which at first glance runs off an outlet that meets my needs.  I even have a NEMA 10-30p plug here that I could wire up to the existing power cable for the computer.  But looking into it I have doubts that it's actually that simple; in particular since this house was built well before 1996 and so the outlet is not grounded; there's a neutral lug and two hot lugs (I assume two 120V A/C lines out of phase?) and I'm guessing that might not sit well with the power supply in this computer.
> Yes, the two hots are 120VAC to neutral each, 180 degrees out of phase, giving 240 between the two hots.
>
> Yes, you should be able to use those two hots to power the target machine, as long as the 240 input lines for the target are isolated from ground. Normally this will be the case, I just mention it in case there is some strange circumstance where one side of the target input is connected to ground. Measure the R between chassis and the two line inputs, it should be very high R on both.

Yes, there's high resistance between both line inputs and chassis 
ground, higher than my DVM can measure.


>
> Is the existing plug/line input to the the target 3-wire (2 hot + GND) or 4-wire (2 hot + neutral + GND)?
> And have you confirmed that one wire IS GND/chassis? (it could conceivably be 2 hot + neutral).

The existing plug is a 3-wire affair, white/black for hot and green 
ground using a NEMA 6-20P plug.  I  have confirmed that ground is wired 
to the chassis (with the DVM.)

So is it as simple as wiring the white/black wires up to the HOT 
terminals on the NEMA connector and leaving the ground disconnected 
(from the "netural" pole on the NEMA... or should that be connected as 
well)?  Anything else I should watch out for?

Thanks,
Josh


>
>
>> But then, I'm a rank amateur when it comes to house wiring and A/C and power supplies and all of that so I thought I'd ask the cctalk collective whether this can be made to work or if I should simply wait for a professional to take care of it...
>>
>> Thanks as always,
>> Josh
>>
>>
>> * An AMT DAP 610, if you must ask.  It's an array processor from the late 80s, with 64x64 1-bit processors.  If the machine doesn't run I'm pretty much SOL for spare parts, schematics, service manuals, or anything beyond customer-level documentation (which I've recently scanned, btw, if anyone's curious...)
>


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Feb  5 22:16:18 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 23:16:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201502060416.XAA01937@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> I picked up a "large" machine* (for certain definitions of large)
> that's currently configured for 220-240V; [...]
> [...]
> So: since all this stuff is in the basement, I'm just about 15 feet
> away from the dryer, [...] since this house was built well before
> 1996 and so the outlet is not grounded; [...]

That does not necessarily follow; I know of at least one house built in
the late '70s that had proper grounding all through it.  (My parents'
place - they and us (then-)kids built it and I learnt about house
wiring from them in the process.)

> there's a neutral lug and two hot lugs (I assume two 120V A/C lines
> out of phase?)

Yes; its all but certain that it's two 120V lines 180 degrees out of
phase with one another, giving 240V between the two, both because
that's usual for electric dryers in North America and because that's
usual for residental power in North America.  (You don't actually _say_
you're in North America, but that's the only place you're likely to be
for which the scenario you describe makes any sense.)

> [...]
> But then, I'm a rank amateur when it comes to house wiring and A/C
> and power supplies and all of that so I thought I'd ask the cctalk
> collective whether this can be made to work [...]

It certainly can be made to work - though finding a decent ground might
be interesting.  It borders on certain that the dryer outlet outlet can
feed it what it wants, if either (a) it doesn't care about ground, (b)
the outlet's box actually is grounded, or (c) you can find a suitable
ground elsewhere nearby.  You probably could even get away with
connecting the machine's ground to the neutral, though I wouldn't be
comfortable doing that for more than a few minutes of testing - ground
is separate from neutral for good reason.

However, there are a lot of ways it can go wrong, and many of them have
disturbingly high chances of being fatal (eg electrocution hazard) or
severely damaging (eg fire hazard) - there's a lot of power lurking
behind that innocuous-looking dryer outlet.  While they are not hard to
avoid for someone used to such things, I would not recommend that "a
rank amateur" try it without someone knowledgeable and experienced on
hand to, at a minimum, give things a look-see before you give it the
juice.  This is definitely a place where Pope's famous line about a
little learning being a dangerous thing is accurate - many things in
this hobby you can fiddle with and the worst that'll happen is you fry
the hardware you're playing with, but mains power, in contrast, can
quite literally kill you on the spot or burn your house down.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  5 22:17:40 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 20:17:40 -0800
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <AE515E57-CC7F-4AAA-A855-5563C5CDB83B@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
 <AE515E57-CC7F-4AAA-A855-5563C5CDB83B@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54D44064.5040303@sydex.com>

On 02/05/2015 08:00 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:

> In theory, if you have two 20A 120V circuits installed, you could also have 220V 20A from the same circuit(s) at the additional expense of just a 220V socket.
> However, local codes may have something to say about such an arrangement.

Have a peek in the breaker box--you should see the third neutral wire 
connected to the common neutral bus, which should also be connected to 
the ground bus.  At least that's the way it is in my house.

The practice for 240V appliance wiring in the US for many years has been 
3-wire, with the third wire used as both a neutral return for 120V 
circuits (many cooktops and ovens use this) and also the chassis ground.

Modern code demands that 4 wires be used in that case, with a separate 
ground run, but I suspect that the majority of installations for 240V 
appliances in the US still use the old 3-wire system.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  5 22:19:48 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 20:19:48 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060412270.31519@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060412270.31519@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <54D440E4.4090201@sydex.com>

On 02/05/2015 08:13 PM, Dave G. wrote:

> I often have episodes of "dammit! that was my last xx uF cap!" and then
> I go to Radio Shack to see if I can find it.

Chuck's rule of thumb:  If the component cost is less than $10, but 
several of them.  In other words, if you need a 10uF 15v electrolytic, 
buy 10 of them.

My parts drawers overfloweth.

--Chuck



From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Feb  5 22:24:58 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 20:24:58 -0800
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <5FDBE4D1-D301-4B94-8A7F-BD3F0DC8E8A4@cs.ubc.ca>


On 2015-Feb-05, at 5:41 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

>> From: Brent Hilpert
> 
>> Well, try removing W1 to isolate the output of the xtal oscillator E15
>> from inverter input pin E4.4.
> 
> Thanks! Too late to try it today, but first thing tomorrow..
> 
> It seems like every time you answer one of my queries, I smack my forehead
> and say 'That's an excellent idea! Why didn't _I_ think of that!?!?' :-)
> 
>> If you're not familiar with them, E15 is an integrated xtal oscillator,
>> not just a crystal - the crystal and oscillator logic are both in that
>> can
> 
> I'm not familiar, so thanks for the tip. Wonder where I'll find one if that's
> what's bad... :-)
> 
>> Could also (with W1 removed) pull E4.4 hi/lo while watching the
>> inverter output E4.16 to see if it responds correctly with the
>> inversion.
> 
> Since it's a tri-state, I may need to hit the enable somehow. Oh, wait, I
> see, it's hard-wired on via a pull-down. (I wonder why they needed a
> pull-down? And I wonder what the test point is there for?) And I guess I need
> like a 5K series pull-up resistor to +5, right? (Ground I can just tie
> directly, right?)
> 
> Anyway, thanks again for the help - very, very useful.
> 
> 	Noel

TP4 looks to be an 'input' test point, rather than an output. The pull-down resistor value (150 or 180 ohms) has been selected such that it is low enough to allow enough current to flow through the tri-state control input E4.1 to pull it low normally, but high enough to allow one to connect TP4 high, to enter tri-state, without unduly high current flow. What the point of going to tri-state is, is not clear, considering that W1 is there for an external clock.
A conjecture is there may have been some external test fixture that tri-stated it for some sort of synchronous single-step clocking.

In testing input E4.4, you could just send it directly to +5 and GND, however it would be a little safer to use a 100-or-so ohm resistor in series for both directions, to limit current in the event the input is shorted internally.

Could also check the V reading on the open E4.4 input.

From g-wright at att.net  Thu Feb  5 22:31:36 2015
From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 20:31:36 -0800
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1423197096.81992.YahooMailNeo@web185306.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Josh,, The neutral   and  ground are hooked together in the panel. so basically they are the same..   the dryer plug gives you a couple  of good 30 amp 110/120 circuits or
1 good 220/240 volt circuit.   The difference is the Neutral is not at ground voltage. it is loaded some from the load lines,  but for what you are doing, make   the connection and give it a try



On Thursday, February 5, 2015 7:28 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
 


I picked up a "large" machine* (for certain definitions of large) that's 
currently configured for 220-240V; my house at the moment lacks 220V 
receptacles.  I was already planning to get an electrician out here to 
put in some beefier wiring at some point (I have a couple of machines 
that draw 15-20A off of 120V that I'd like to be able to run) but I 
wasn't yet planning on doing 220V unless I have to.

(It looks like in theory it's possible to reconfigure the supply for 
120V but I lack the docs to do so with any level of confidence...)

I don't know if this machine works, and I'd rather not invest in 220V 
wiring quite yet unless it does.  And, let's face it, I'm spoiled and I 
demand instant gratification and I'd like to know as soon as possible if 
this machine is a basket case or not.

So:  since all this stuff is in the basement, I'm just about 15 feet 
away from the dryer, which at first glance runs off an outlet that meets 
my needs.  I even have a NEMA 10-30p plug here that I could wire up to 
the existing power cable for the computer.  But looking into it I have 
doubts that it's actually that simple; in particular since this house 
was built well before 1996 and so the outlet is not grounded; there's a 
neutral lug and two hot lugs (I assume two 120V A/C lines out of phase?) 
and I'm guessing that might not sit well with the power supply in this 
computer.

But then, I'm a rank amateur when it comes to house wiring and A/C and 
power supplies and all of that so I thought I'd ask the cctalk 
collective whether this can be made to work or if I should simply wait 
for a professional to take care of it...

Thanks as always,
Josh


* An AMT DAP 610, if you must ask.  It's an array processor from the 
late 80s, with 64x64 1-bit processors.  If the machine doesn't run I'm 
pretty much SOL for spare parts, schematics, service manuals, or 
anything beyond customer-level documentation (which I've recently 
scanned, btw, if anyone's curious...)

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 22:41:10 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 23:41:10 -0500
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <1423197096.81992.YahooMailNeo@web185306.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
 <1423197096.81992.YahooMailNeo@web185306.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfD8Mnt=FqY=AbX+06YFjSPmjS72uFKO3-A8Q2LYBrhNUQ@mail.gmail.com>

The only annoying thing about this is that if you get between that little
bit of "loaded some from the load lines" that you've shorted to the chassis
and something truly grounded (i.e. by touching the computer and a pipe or
the damp floor with bare feet, etc.), you get to experience the power
differential running through your body.  This has always been merely
annoying to be.  I don't know if it can kill.

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 11:31 PM, Jerry Wright <g-wright at att.net> wrote:

> Josh,, The neutral   and  ground are hooked together in the panel. so
> basically they are the same..   the dryer plug gives you a couple  of good
> 30 amp 110/120 circuits or
> 1 good 220/240 volt circuit.   The difference is the Neutral is not at
> ground voltage. it is loaded some from the load lines,  but for what you
> are doing, make   the connection and give it a try
>
>
>
> On Thursday, February 5, 2015 7:28 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> I picked up a "large" machine* (for certain definitions of large) that's
> currently configured for 220-240V; my house at the moment lacks 220V
> receptacles.  I was already planning to get an electrician out here to
> put in some beefier wiring at some point (I have a couple of machines
> that draw 15-20A off of 120V that I'd like to be able to run) but I
> wasn't yet planning on doing 220V unless I have to.
>
> (It looks like in theory it's possible to reconfigure the supply for
> 120V but I lack the docs to do so with any level of confidence...)
>
> I don't know if this machine works, and I'd rather not invest in 220V
> wiring quite yet unless it does.  And, let's face it, I'm spoiled and I
> demand instant gratification and I'd like to know as soon as possible if
> this machine is a basket case or not.
>
> So:  since all this stuff is in the basement, I'm just about 15 feet
> away from the dryer, which at first glance runs off an outlet that meets
> my needs.  I even have a NEMA 10-30p plug here that I could wire up to
> the existing power cable for the computer.  But looking into it I have
> doubts that it's actually that simple; in particular since this house
> was built well before 1996 and so the outlet is not grounded; there's a
> neutral lug and two hot lugs (I assume two 120V A/C lines out of phase?)
> and I'm guessing that might not sit well with the power supply in this
> computer.
>
> But then, I'm a rank amateur when it comes to house wiring and A/C and
> power supplies and all of that so I thought I'd ask the cctalk
> collective whether this can be made to work or if I should simply wait
> for a professional to take care of it...
>
> Thanks as always,
> Josh
>
>
> * An AMT DAP 610, if you must ask.  It's an array processor from the
> late 80s, with 64x64 1-bit processors.  If the machine doesn't run I'm
> pretty much SOL for spare parts, schematics, service manuals, or
> anything beyond customer-level documentation (which I've recently
> scanned, btw, if anyone's curious...)
>

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Feb  5 22:45:16 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 20:45:16 -0800
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <54D44000.4020209@gmail.com>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
 <AE515E57-CC7F-4AAA-A855-5563C5CDB83B@cs.ubc.ca> <54D44000.4020209@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A42715D5-1921-41FF-A648-9E51E5B2E8F7@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-05, at 8:16 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> On 2/5/2015 8:00 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> On 2015-Feb-05, at 7:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>> And, let's face it, I'm spoiled and I demand instant gratification and I'd like to know as soon as possible if this machine is a basket case or not.
>>> 
>>> So:  since all this stuff is in the basement, I'm just about 15 feet away from the dryer, which at first glance runs off an outlet that meets my needs.  I even have a NEMA 10-30p plug here that I could wire up to the existing power cable for the computer.  But looking into it I have doubts that it's actually that simple; in particular since this house was built well before 1996 and so the outlet is not grounded; there's a neutral lug and two hot lugs (I assume two 120V A/C lines out of phase?) and I'm guessing that might not sit well with the power supply in this computer.
>> Yes, the two hots are 120VAC to neutral each, 180 degrees out of phase, giving 240 between the two hots.
>> 
>> Yes, you should be able to use those two hots to power the target machine, as long as the 240 input lines for the target are isolated from ground. Normally this will be the case, I just mention it in case there is some strange circumstance where one side of the target input is connected to ground. Measure the R between chassis and the two line inputs, it should be very high R on both.
> 
> Yes, there's high resistance between both line inputs and chassis ground, higher than my DVM can measure.
> 
> 
>> 
>> Is the existing plug/line input to the the target 3-wire (2 hot + GND) or 4-wire (2 hot + neutral + GND)?
>> And have you confirmed that one wire IS GND/chassis? (it could conceivably be 2 hot + neutral).
> 
> The existing plug is a 3-wire affair, white/black for hot and green ground using a NEMA 6-20P plug.  I  have confirmed that ground is wired to the chassis (with the DVM.)
> 
> So is it as simple as wiring the white/black wires up to the HOT terminals on the NEMA connector and leaving the ground disconnected (from the "netural" pole on the NEMA... or should that be connected as well)?  Anything else I should watch out for?

If you are convinced it's wired for 240 then yes, you should be able to wire the hots as you say.
You MUST somehow GND the chassis however, either:
	- confirm the dryer receptacle neutral is adequately tied to ground, or
	- if the dryer receptacle is wired with armored/BX cable that may be the ground, or
	- waterpipe confirmed as adequate ground, or
	- connect to a confirmed ground on a normal 120V outlet, although there is a warning involved in such a scenario,
	   if the ground conductor is much smaller than the hot conductor, a fault can blow the ground conductor open,
	   at which point you have no ground and a live chassis. In theory the circuit breaker should open before the ground blows, but that's theory.

Alternatively, if you'd like to examine rewiring the machine for 120, we could look at that, via photos, etc.
(First question would be what are the target power/VA requirements, to consider whether it's worthwhile on 120).


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Feb  5 22:54:44 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 20:54:44 -0800
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <1423197096.81992.YahooMailNeo@web185306.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
 <1423197096.81992.YahooMailNeo@web185306.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9C54C0D2-3233-476F-8F82-8200040F01BE@cs.ubc.ca>

In the scenario being discussed, there should be no current flowing in the dryer neutral wire, so the only place there should be a voltage drop would be around the neutral-bus-bar/ground-link in the panel, which should be negligible - unless the dryer is linked off a sub-panel where there would an opportunity for other loads on the sub-panel to produce a voltage drop on the neutral back to the main panel.


On 2015-Feb-05, at 8:31 PM, Jerry Wright wrote:

> Josh,, The neutral   and  ground are hooked together in the panel. so basically they are the same..   the dryer plug gives you a couple  of good 30 amp 110/120 circuits or
> 1 good 220/240 volt circuit.   The difference is the Neutral is not at ground voltage. it is loaded some from the load lines,  but for what you are doing, make   the connection and give it a try
> 
> 
> 
> On Thursday, February 5, 2015 7:28 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I picked up a "large" machine* (for certain definitions of large) that's 
> currently configured for 220-240V; my house at the moment lacks 220V 
> receptacles.  I was already planning to get an electrician out here to 
> put in some beefier wiring at some point (I have a couple of machines 
> that draw 15-20A off of 120V that I'd like to be able to run) but I 
> wasn't yet planning on doing 220V unless I have to.
> 
> (It looks like in theory it's possible to reconfigure the supply for 
> 120V but I lack the docs to do so with any level of confidence...)
> 
> I don't know if this machine works, and I'd rather not invest in 220V 
> wiring quite yet unless it does.  And, let's face it, I'm spoiled and I 
> demand instant gratification and I'd like to know as soon as possible if 
> this machine is a basket case or not.
> 
> So:  since all this stuff is in the basement, I'm just about 15 feet 
> away from the dryer, which at first glance runs off an outlet that meets 
> my needs.  I even have a NEMA 10-30p plug here that I could wire up to 
> the existing power cable for the computer.  But looking into it I have 
> doubts that it's actually that simple; in particular since this house 
> was built well before 1996 and so the outlet is not grounded; there's a 
> neutral lug and two hot lugs (I assume two 120V A/C lines out of phase?) 
> and I'm guessing that might not sit well with the power supply in this 
> computer.
> 
> But then, I'm a rank amateur when it comes to house wiring and A/C and 
> power supplies and all of that so I thought I'd ask the cctalk 
> collective whether this can be made to work or if I should simply wait 
> for a professional to take care of it...
> 
> Thanks as always,
> Josh
> 
> 
> * An AMT DAP 610, if you must ask.  It's an array processor from the 
> late 80s, with 64x64 1-bit processors.  If the machine doesn't run I'm 
> pretty much SOL for spare parts, schematics, service manuals, or 
> anything beyond customer-level documentation (which I've recently 
> scanned, btw, if anyone's curious...)


From isking at uw.edu  Thu Feb  5 22:59:22 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 20:59:22 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D440E4.4090201@sydex.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060412270.31519@nyx.feedle.net>
 <54D440E4.4090201@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ00D+mmD6OWzN72ZqkRO6oDF64FU01n1B=WgE1ksiomCbw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 8:19 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 02/05/2015 08:13 PM, Dave G. wrote:
>
>  I often have episodes of "dammit! that was my last xx uF cap!" and then
>> I go to Radio Shack to see if I can find it.
>>
>
> Chuck's rule of thumb:  If the component cost is less than $10, but
> several of them.  In other words, if you need a 10uF 15v electrolytic, buy
> 10 of them.
>
> My parts drawers overfloweth.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
> +1 (or should that be +10?)


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Feb  5 23:17:12 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 22:17:12 -0700
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ00D+mmD6OWzN72ZqkRO6oDF64FU01n1B=WgE1ksiomCbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060412270.31519@nyx.feedle.net>
 <54D440E4.4090201@sydex.com>
 <CAKtEJ00D+mmD6OWzN72ZqkRO6oDF64FU01n1B=WgE1ksiomCbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D44E58.5000700@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/5/2015 9:59 PM, Ian S. King wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 8:19 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>
>> On 02/05/2015 08:13 PM, Dave G. wrote:
>>
>>   I often have episodes of "dammit! that was my last xx uF cap!" and then
>>> I go to Radio Shack to see if I can find it.
>>>
>>
>> Chuck's rule of thumb:  If the component cost is less than $10, but
>> several of them.  In other words, if you need a 10uF 15v electrolytic, buy
>> 10 of them.
>>
>> My parts drawers overfloweth.
>>
>> --Chuck
>>
>>
>> +1 (or should that be +10?)
>

+10
His wallet underfloweth.

Ben.

From derschjo at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 23:22:28 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 21:22:28 -0800
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <A42715D5-1921-41FF-A648-9E51E5B2E8F7@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
 <AE515E57-CC7F-4AAA-A855-5563C5CDB83B@cs.ubc.ca> <54D44000.4020209@gmail.com>
 <A42715D5-1921-41FF-A648-9E51E5B2E8F7@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54D44F94.2080505@gmail.com>

On 2/5/2015 8:45 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> On 2015-Feb-05, at 8:16 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>> On 2/5/2015 8:00 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>>> On 2015-Feb-05, at 7:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>>> And, let's face it, I'm spoiled and I demand instant gratification and I'd like to know as soon as possible if this machine is a basket case or not.
>>>>
>>>> So:  since all this stuff is in the basement, I'm just about 15 feet away from the dryer, which at first glance runs off an outlet that meets my needs.  I even have a NEMA 10-30p plug here that I could wire up to the existing power cable for the computer.  But looking into it I have doubts that it's actually that simple; in particular since this house was built well before 1996 and so the outlet is not grounded; there's a neutral lug and two hot lugs (I assume two 120V A/C lines out of phase?) and I'm guessing that might not sit well with the power supply in this computer.
>>> Yes, the two hots are 120VAC to neutral each, 180 degrees out of phase, giving 240 between the two hots.
>>>
>>> Yes, you should be able to use those two hots to power the target machine, as long as the 240 input lines for the target are isolated from ground. Normally this will be the case, I just mention it in case there is some strange circumstance where one side of the target input is connected to ground. Measure the R between chassis and the two line inputs, it should be very high R on both.
>> Yes, there's high resistance between both line inputs and chassis ground, higher than my DVM can measure.
>>
>>
>>> Is the existing plug/line input to the the target 3-wire (2 hot + GND) or 4-wire (2 hot + neutral + GND)?
>>> And have you confirmed that one wire IS GND/chassis? (it could conceivably be 2 hot + neutral).
>> The existing plug is a 3-wire affair, white/black for hot and green ground using a NEMA 6-20P plug.  I  have confirmed that ground is wired to the chassis (with the DVM.)
>>
>> So is it as simple as wiring the white/black wires up to the HOT terminals on the NEMA connector and leaving the ground disconnected (from the "netural" pole on the NEMA... or should that be connected as well)?  Anything else I should watch out for?
> If you are convinced it's wired for 240 then yes, you should be able to wire the hots as you say.
> You MUST somehow GND the chassis however, either:
> 	- confirm the dryer receptacle neutral is adequately tied to ground, or
> 	- if the dryer receptacle is wired with armored/BX cable that may be the ground, or
> 	- waterpipe confirmed as adequate ground, or
> 	- connect to a confirmed ground on a normal 120V outlet, although there is a warning involved in such a scenario,
> 	   if the ground conductor is much smaller than the hot conductor, a fault can blow the ground conductor open,
> 	   at which point you have no ground and a live chassis. In theory the circuit breaker should open before the ground blows, but that's theory.

OK:  Confirmed two things:  There's 240V between the two HOT terminals 
at the outlet, and the ground appears to be grounded (I get continuity 
between the ground on the nearby 120V outlet (which I know is properly 
grounded) and the neutral terminal of the 240V outlet.)

So it looks like I should be good to go here.  One last question -- does 
it matter which hot wire goes to which terminal in this case?

>
> Alternatively, if you'd like to examine rewiring the machine for 120, we could look at that, via photos, etc.
> (First question would be what are the target power/VA requirements, to consider whether it's worthwhile on 120).
>
>

I have taken one photo (I probably should have taken more since it's a 
PITA to get to, but I wasn't planning on rewiring things at the time).  
You can find it at:

http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/dap/supply.jpg

According to the panel on the front of the machine, the power draw is 
rated at 120V/10A or 240V/5A.  So it should run fine on a normal 120V 
outlet.  But there's a lot to reconfigure, it looks like, and the fans 
are all 240V AC units as well...

- Josh





From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Feb  5 23:26:28 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 21:26:28 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D4003B.2010509@btinternet.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net> <54D4003B.2010509@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <8C93ADDC-2663-452E-825E-7BDD0F7B45E9@cs.ubc.ca>


On 2015-Feb-05, at 3:43 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote:

> On 05/02/2015 22:33, Fred Cisin wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Ali wrote:
>>> RadioShack had it essentially right in the 2014 Super Bowl commercial -
>>> the 80s called and they did want their store back. What they screwed up
>>> was thinking that meant the old store had to go and be replaced with the
>>> current monstrosity.
>>> RadioShack should have brought back the store of the 1980s and updated
>>> it items like cheap cables, Raspberry Pi kits, etc. I.E. hobbyist and do
>>> it yourself stuff. Yes, they still would have to close a number of
>>> locations (do you really need a ratshack on every corner?) but what
>>> would have been left behind would have thrived...
>> No, they would have had to take it back to the 1960s and 1970s.
>> By the 1980s, Radio Shack was already committed to changing from hobbyist
>> supplies to crappy consumer electronics.
>> 
>> 
> Radio Shack  or as they were known in the UK - Tandy - Are long gone from here.
> We have a UK alternative called Maplin. They have recently moved into being
> flashy high stores selling own brand consumer electronics and mobile phone
> accessories. The component side in the store is minimal.
> 
> Their on line store is still good for some hard to get components.
> We do have Farnell, CPC and RS components,
> They are mail order only but have huge number of different stock lines.
> 
> I also buy within the EEC as there is no customs duty to pay and VAT is the same as here or less.

.. how things change ..

When I was a kid in the 70's, Vancouver (Canada) was a backwater city situated on the edge of civilisation.
At that time we had half-a-dozen real, industrial-grade electronic suppliers, in addition to the plethora of RS stores and such lower-grade component sources sprinkled around the region.

40 years later, Vancouver is a "world-class" city, assessed by some or other as the second most expensive real-estate on the planet, the most expensive to live in North America, a player in the "global economy".
We are now down to 2 or 3 small-to-mid-size stores to which one can go to buy an off-the-shelf transistor or IC or capacitor.

(Quoted phrases above presented with some note of derision.)


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Feb  5 23:53:00 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 21:53:00 -0800
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <54D44F94.2080505@gmail.com>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
 <AE515E57-CC7F-4AAA-A855-5563C5CDB83B@cs.ubc.ca> <54D44000.4020209@gmail.com>
 <A42715D5-1921-41FF-A648-9E51E5B2E8F7@cs.ubc.ca> <54D44F94.2080505@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1CA06B0A-D8FB-4BDF-8EE8-6D8A7923B90D@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-05, at 9:22 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> On 2/5/2015 8:45 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> On 2015-Feb-05, at 8:16 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>> On 2/5/2015 8:00 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>>>> On 2015-Feb-05, at 7:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>>>> And, let's face it, I'm spoiled and I demand instant gratification and I'd like to know as soon as possible if this machine is a basket case or not.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So:  since all this stuff is in the basement, I'm just about 15 feet away from the dryer, which at first glance runs off an outlet that meets my needs.  I even have a NEMA 10-30p plug here that I could wire up to the existing power cable for the computer.  But looking into it I have doubts that it's actually that simple; in particular since this house was built well before 1996 and so the outlet is not grounded; there's a neutral lug and two hot lugs (I assume two 120V A/C lines out of phase?) and I'm guessing that might not sit well with the power supply in this computer.
>>>> Yes, the two hots are 120VAC to neutral each, 180 degrees out of phase, giving 240 between the two hots.
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, you should be able to use those two hots to power the target machine, as long as the 240 input lines for the target are isolated from ground. Normally this will be the case, I just mention it in case there is some strange circumstance where one side of the target input is connected to ground. Measure the R between chassis and the two line inputs, it should be very high R on both.
>>> Yes, there's high resistance between both line inputs and chassis ground, higher than my DVM can measure.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Is the existing plug/line input to the the target 3-wire (2 hot + GND) or 4-wire (2 hot + neutral + GND)?
>>>> And have you confirmed that one wire IS GND/chassis? (it could conceivably be 2 hot + neutral).
>>> The existing plug is a 3-wire affair, white/black for hot and green ground using a NEMA 6-20P plug.  I  have confirmed that ground is wired to the chassis (with the DVM.)
>>> 
>>> So is it as simple as wiring the white/black wires up to the HOT terminals on the NEMA connector and leaving the ground disconnected (from the "netural" pole on the NEMA... or should that be connected as well)?  Anything else I should watch out for?
>> If you are convinced it's wired for 240 then yes, you should be able to wire the hots as you say.
>> You MUST somehow GND the chassis however, either:
>> 	- confirm the dryer receptacle neutral is adequately tied to ground, or
>> 	- if the dryer receptacle is wired with armored/BX cable that may be the ground, or
>> 	- waterpipe confirmed as adequate ground, or
>> 	- connect to a confirmed ground on a normal 120V outlet, although there is a warning involved in such a scenario,
>> 	   if the ground conductor is much smaller than the hot conductor, a fault can blow the ground conductor open,
>> 	   at which point you have no ground and a live chassis. In theory the circuit breaker should open before the ground blows, but that's theory.
> 
> OK:  Confirmed two things:  There's 240V between the two HOT terminals at the outlet, and the ground appears to be grounded (I get continuity between the ground on the nearby 120V outlet (which I know is properly grounded) and the neutral terminal of the 240V outlet.)
> 
> So it looks like I should be good to go here.  One last question -- does it matter which hot wire goes to which terminal in this case?

Nope.


>> 
>> Alternatively, if you'd like to examine rewiring the machine for 120, we could look at that, via photos, etc.
>> (First question would be what are the target power/VA requirements, to consider whether it's worthwhile on 120).
>> 
> I have taken one photo (I probably should have taken more since it's a PITA to get to, but I wasn't planning on rewiring things at the time).  You can find it at:
> 
> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/dap/supply.jpg

> According to the panel on the front of the machine, the power draw is rated at 120V/10A or 240V/5A.  So it should run fine on a normal 120V outlet.  But there's a lot to reconfigure, it looks like, and the fans are all 240V AC units as well...

Looks like one has to get inside the blue power supply there to reconfigure it. Not clear whether there are 2 or 3 connections  to the PS there, the 2 browns look to be the same circuit (connected), but can't quite discern whether the blue and grey are separate or connected.

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 00:22:11 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 01:22:11 -0500
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <8C93ADDC-2663-452E-825E-7BDD0F7B45E9@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net>
 <54D4003B.2010509@btinternet.com>
 <8C93ADDC-2663-452E-825E-7BDD0F7B45E9@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfCAUb1eMFb2mAHARh_YvtSKwA2CBLgcQaJRUjjR+REuNQ@mail.gmail.com>

Babylon system is the vampire for the empire
Sucking the children day by day.
Building church and university
Deceiving the people continually.


On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 12:26 AM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:

>
> On 2015-Feb-05, at 3:43 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>
> > On 05/02/2015 22:33, Fred Cisin wrote:
> >> On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Ali wrote:
> >>> RadioShack had it essentially right in the 2014 Super Bowl commercial -
> >>> the 80s called and they did want their store back. What they screwed up
> >>> was thinking that meant the old store had to go and be replaced with
> the
> >>> current monstrosity.
> >>> RadioShack should have brought back the store of the 1980s and updated
> >>> it items like cheap cables, Raspberry Pi kits, etc. I.E. hobbyist and
> do
> >>> it yourself stuff. Yes, they still would have to close a number of
> >>> locations (do you really need a ratshack on every corner?) but what
> >>> would have been left behind would have thrived...
> >> No, they would have had to take it back to the 1960s and 1970s.
> >> By the 1980s, Radio Shack was already committed to changing from
> hobbyist
> >> supplies to crappy consumer electronics.
> >>
> >>
> > Radio Shack  or as they were known in the UK - Tandy - Are long gone
> from here.
> > We have a UK alternative called Maplin. They have recently moved into
> being
> > flashy high stores selling own brand consumer electronics and mobile
> phone
> > accessories. The component side in the store is minimal.
> >
> > Their on line store is still good for some hard to get components.
> > We do have Farnell, CPC and RS components,
> > They are mail order only but have huge number of different stock lines.
> >
> > I also buy within the EEC as there is no customs duty to pay and VAT is
> the same as here or less.
>
> .. how things change ..
>
> When I was a kid in the 70's, Vancouver (Canada) was a backwater city
> situated on the edge of civilisation.
> At that time we had half-a-dozen real, industrial-grade electronic
> suppliers, in addition to the plethora of RS stores and such lower-grade
> component sources sprinkled around the region.
>
> 40 years later, Vancouver is a "world-class" city, assessed by some or
> other as the second most expensive real-estate on the planet, the most
> expensive to live in North America, a player in the "global economy".
> We are now down to 2 or 3 small-to-mid-size stores to which one can go to
> buy an off-the-shelf transistor or IC or capacitor.
>
> (Quoted phrases above presented with some note of derision.)
>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Thu Feb  5 15:35:54 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 16:35:54 -0500
Subject: Prime?
In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B988@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B1EE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
 <CAA43vkXHD2uLPQwrGNegXqtM2Ck4=8hyekoDsEfGN48Onxo5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3B49C.7000000@bitsavers.org> <54D3C522.2030003@sydex.com>
 <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057373B988@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkVQDTTOo2W60XMp9HOduasuZm=Of79n_QPLjorwVVqdew@mail.gmail.com>

Just use plain ole Telnet to connect to host prirun.dyndns.org on port 8001
or 8002 or ... 8007. The TCP port you connect to, determines the release of
Primos you get. Nothing on that host is listening at all on the usual
Telnet port, 23; you have to specify a port when you connect.

Best,

Sean


On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Bob Brown <bbrown at harpercollege.edu> wrote:

> Where is the info on getting into the simulator....the addresses that I've
> tried haven't worked.
> -Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
> Guzis
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 1:32 PM
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion@
> Subject: Re: Prime?
>
> On 02/05/2015 10:21 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
>
> > I was disappointed that the simulator never went anywhere as far as I
> > was concerned and sort of lost interest in hunting down much more for
> > the machines. It is a shame that his work will die with him.
>
> The last time I checked, you could still telnet into the simulator (that
> was a few months ago).
>
> But yeah, it would have saved me a bunch of work if a simulator were
> openly available.  I had to decipher the format of a MAGSAV tape the hard
> way.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Thu Feb  5 15:57:04 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 16:57:04 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45.
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfAwTp8AEQS8+iMwJpoV=d3ec7QNn3BB_8z-D9sz0VHacw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfAPSEC3udmROgZ9PF5m52kMv_1egDDp4YekVewKBhT2SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2DCEB.1060104@pico-systems.com>
 <CAHYQbfC7ABwDC2yxX+gyXrN6w=w6d=z=fssX1EUKRqwxHVdocA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051515510.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <CAHYQbfAwTp8AEQS8+iMwJpoV=d3ec7QNn3BB_8z-D9sz0VHacw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWNembNyR1L2oNpAWXZZULcBjakk1sJutW_0qFnzkNchQ@mail.gmail.com>

Indeed, thank you; I don't follow it closely and I probably would have been
caught short when stocks ran down. Guess it's time to go and pick up a case
or two down at the home store... I needed to make a light bulb run anyway,
LOL.

Best,

Sean


On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:

> excellent information - thanks!
>
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 4:38 PM, Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 4 Feb 2015, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> The 11/45 has a row of little step-down regulator modules, all plugged
> >>> in with those horrible AMP Mate-n-Lock connectors.  We often had bad
> >>> contacts on those and they would sometimes burn the connector housings
> or
> >>> char the ends of the wires.  That was all about 1980, I can't imagine
> >>> they've improved with age.  I think you may have more trouble with
> these
> >>> than anything else in the machine.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I wonder if spraying out with crc contact cleaner and a nice slathering
> >> of dielectric grease would help.
> >>
> >
> > Never use silicone (dielectric) grease anywhere near this sort of stuff.
> > Western Electric / AT&T learned the hard way back in the day when the
> stuff
> > damaged switch and relay contacts in their telephone switches. On the
> other
> > hand, something like Sanchem A-Special would be fine, although a little
> > messy. (And before someone asks, no, A-Special is not anything at all
> like
> > that nasty "Noalox" zinc particle garbage from Ideal Industries...totally
> > different product families and applications.)
> >
> > The main issue with AMP Mate-n-lock connectors (and similar pin and
> socket
> > connectors from Molex) is the use of tin plated spring brass contacts
> > instead of tin plated beryllium copper contacts. Spring brass contacts
> are
> > not rated for very much current compared to beryllium copper contacts,
> but
> > manufacturers tend to buy whatever is cheapest. I've successfully used
> both
> > types of contacts for years without issues and haven't (yet) had the
> > catastrophic failures some people have described. If I use these type of
> > connectors for power though, I use beryllium copper contacts.
> >
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Feb  5 15:58:32 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 13:58:32 -0800
Subject: Microdata disk/tape images
In-Reply-To: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
References: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
Message-ID: <54D3E788.7070708@bitsavers.org>

On 2/5/15 1:19 PM, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
> Long shot, but does anyone know of any available disk/tape/paper tape/ROM images for any of the Microdata machines (800/1600) or the relatives (Intertechnique Multi-8/Multi-4, MAI Basic Four BB-II)?
>

It's a bit more complicated than that. Jim Stephens will probably pipe in, but there
is a microcode layer that was specific to the vendor, so even if you have the
hardware, it will not run software from someone else.





From jws at jwsss.com  Thu Feb  5 16:22:46 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 14:22:46 -0800
Subject: Microdata disk/tape images
In-Reply-To: <54D3E788.7070708@bitsavers.org>
References: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
 <54D3E788.7070708@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <54D3ED36.7040506@jwsss.com>


On 2/5/2015 1:58 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 2/5/15 1:19 PM, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
>> Long shot, but does anyone know of any available disk/tape/paper 
>> tape/ROM images for any of the Microdata machines (800/1600) or the 
>> relatives (Intertechnique Multi-8/Multi-4, MAI Basic Four BB-II)?
>>
>
> It's a bit more complicated than that. Jim Stephens will probably pipe 
> in, but there
> is a microcode layer that was specific to the vendor, so even if you 
> have the
> hardware, it will not run software from someone else
Short answer is yes.  but the whole story will require quite a bit of 
information about what you have and want to do.  Contact offline, as 
this sort of thread could get very long.

and probably bore the hell out of people for quite a bit of it. I'll be 
glad to help you figure out what you have if that is why you are 
asking.  if you want to make a list for some project, I can probably 
help with that too.
jim


From cramcram at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 16:35:34 2015
From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 14:35:34 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20j8TsOBg5BD9gMO69Q6OPO5LnDm-noVucHdjNmrhtjNMFdw@mail.gmail.com>

Use http://on.wsj.com/1IaZQhY

Marc

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> wrote:
>
> > So ..... Radio Shack is (more or less) finally dead.
> >
> > There are still plenty of RS stores open for business. (Although I read
> > this morning that they're not getting new shipments, which makes them
> > essentially clearance stores.) Apparently the company is legally allowed
> to
> > close a maximum of 200 stores per year. Or something like that.
> >
> > Horn-tooting: the Wall Street Journal interviewed me about RS back at
> > World Maker Faire last fall. They published the story online today and
> > it'll be in print tomorrow.
> >
> > http://www.wsj.com/articles/strategic-confusion-put-
> > radioshack-at-the-mercy-of-lenders-1423164004
> >
> > Scroll aaaaaaaaaaaall the way down to the bottom. (LOL, yeah, I'm
> > important!)
> >
>
> Behind a paywall, y'all....
>
> --
> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
> Ph.D. Candidate
> The Information School
> University of Washington
>
> An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
> engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.
>

From jws at jwsss.com  Thu Feb  5 17:58:16 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 15:58:16 -0800
Subject: Microdata disk/tape images
In-Reply-To: <54D3E788.7070708@bitsavers.org>
References: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
 <54D3E788.7070708@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <54D40398.60801@jwsss.com>


On 2/5/2015 1:58 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 2/5/15 1:19 PM, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
>> Long shot, but does anyone know of any available disk/tape/paper 
>> tape/ROM images for any of the Microdata machines (800/1600) or the 
>> relatives (Intertechnique Multi-8/Multi-4, MAI Basic Four BB-II)?
>>
>
> It's a bit more complicated than that. Jim Stephens will probably pipe 
> in, but there
> is a microcode layer that was specific to the vendor, so even if you 
> have the
> hardware, it will not run software from someone else

This may double post, repeating sending.

Short answer is yes.  but the whole story will require quite a bit of 
information about what you have and want to do.  Contact offline, as 
this sort of thread could get very long.

and probably bore  people for quite a bit of it. I'll be glad to help 
you figure out what you have if that is why you are asking.  if you want 
to make a list for some project, I can probably help with that too.
jim

From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  6 00:40:41 2015
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 22:40:41 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060412270.31519@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>,
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>,
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>,
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060412270.31519@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <BLU172-W213358DA5541A620078990BA380@phx.gbl>

I stopped at Rat Shack today.

The signs outside were the 50-70% off kind of stuff.

My motivation, was just to come inside, and 'cheer on' the lone guy behind the counter.

Sure, they can suck at times, but as said in other posts, 'when I really need that 7805 voltage reg, they were there, and a mile away'
Radio Shack has always been a stop for the fast last minute parts.  No complaints, I do electronic design as a consulting business and there has been a fair share of  on the bench at 8PM and 'I need it now' for a show and tell tomorrow, and its not in the lab stock.

I got the TRS-80 the day it came out.  We knew the Z-80, but months of BASIC peek-poke and learning the expansion bus, adding a disk got us way ahead of the other S-100 guys just getting started.

Radio Shack, I will miss you, but I don't think you are done just yet.  Your online presence is what we have been asking for.
 
Dropping into the store for the LM317 IC, is probably gone.

Randy

> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 04:13:16 +0000
> From: dave at 661.org
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Radio Shack
> 
> On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Charles wrote:
> 
> > yeah the 80?s kept their radio shack?.
> >
> > 90?s kept their radio shack?
> >
> > anything after that ? is like "Cell Phone Accessory Express?
> > if you are lucky they might have A switch or A capacitor?.  And MAYBE it MIGHT be the value you actually need? but how many people re-cap their power supply with ONE cap?
> >
> > how many people need just one cap?
> >
> > thinking about this is making me angry?.  I am glad radio shack is gone? 
> > rest in hell!
> 
> I often have episodes of "dammit! that was my last xx uF cap!" and then I 
> go to Radio Shack to see if I can find it.
> 
> 
> -- 
> David Griffith
> dave at 661.org
> 
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
 		 	   		  

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Feb  6 00:42:27 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 06:42:27 +0000
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfA-pk3Gx7BB3GKn-kfk-teBGr_5q8wu0p3NEvXkOYj2JA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B31EA@EXMBX16.thus.corp>,
 <CAHYQbfA-pk3Gx7BB3GKn-kfk-teBGr_5q8wu0p3NEvXkOYj2JA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B333C@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

>   OK, please forgive my ignorance, here.  To give you some idea of my
> electronics expertise level, I'd like you to know that I just googled
> crowbar :D

I (hopefully) never have and never will flame somebody who is trying to
learn. Sharing repair information (at all levels) is one thing this list is for.

[...]

>   From the wikipedia article I read, I guess this crowbar thing tripping,
> is just its way of trying to protect the rest of the system from
> overcurrent, right?

Overvoltage, not overcurrent. The idea of the crowbar circuit is to short
circuit the output of the power supply if the voltage rises too high, thus
protecting the rest of the machine. This, will, of course, cause a high current
to flow in the PSU circuit and the overcurrent circuit should then operate [1]
but that's a result, not a cause.

[1] I once had an H754 (yes) where the overcurrent circuit had failed and the
crowbar operated. The result was a number of transistors literally blown off
the PCB. I think I had to replace 3 or 4 of them, the 723 chip, the fuse, etc.

>  And the dried up cap is one thing what could make it think there was an
> overcurrent situation, correct?

This is as switching regulator. Basically there is a power transistor that is either
turned hard on (saturated) or cut off. When it is on, energy flows from the 
transformer and is stored in the magnetic field of the inductor in the module.
When it is off, tht stored energy supplies the load. The capacitor is another
energy store, effectively to smooth out the voltage changes from this switching.
If it fails (the electrolyte dries up and it seems to have a large-ish resistor in series
with it), then you get high voltage spikes on the output. These then trip the 
crowbar.


> I'v had a little luck in the past with such things, but I don't know that
>I'm going to understand how to read the schematic.  I'm going to try and
> find one now.  Also going to try to find a manual that describes the power

I've not seen what the 11/45 manuals cover, but somebody else mentioned the
11/34. The 11/34 PSU, for all it is different, uses the same regulator bricks, so I
assume that bit of the manual is applicable here.

> supply.  But how do I know which one is the output cap?  What is a valid

When I have unpacked all my printsets I can give you a circuit reference. 
But just look for an electrolytic capacitor between the -15V output and
ground (I think it is the second largest can on the board, the really
big one is the input smoothing capacitor).

> test once I find it?  I guess I could charge it up on a car battery and see
> how long it holds or something like that.

No, you are looking for series resistance, not leakage. The only real way to
measure it is with an ESR meter (a device for checking such capacitors, the
name means 'Effective Series Resistance' and it's a very useful tool when
working on PSUs. 


>   I don't have much electronics gear here.  Borrowed a Craftsman digital
> VOM from my electrician friend (although it's telling me I have 140v AC on
> the mains!) and I have a soldering iron, heated desoldering bulb thing and
> some desoldering braid, flux and lead solder.

You need the flux-cored 'electronic' solder (resin cored), the real lead/tin stuff
is what was originally used and should be used for repairs. Do NOT use any
other fluxes, certainly not the acid flux used for plumbing/metalwork (OK, there
are times when you add some more resin flux, particularly when doing SMD work,
but not here)

I think a desoldering pump is useful too, much better than the bulb.

You need your own DMM. A 'scope is very useful too. And when you start working on
the CPU itself, a logic analyser is handy

> BTW, according to this VOM, there's 24.5 AC and 14.2 volts DC being input
> into the H745 regulator.  Is this too low?  Maybe this has something to do
> with the H742 adjustment that I didn't find?  Or maybe this VOM is
> miscalibrated.

Those voltages are fine.

-tony

From derschjo at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 00:55:30 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 22:55:30 -0800
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <1CA06B0A-D8FB-4BDF-8EE8-6D8A7923B90D@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
 <AE515E57-CC7F-4AAA-A855-5563C5CDB83B@cs.ubc.ca> <54D44000.4020209@gmail.com>
 <A42715D5-1921-41FF-A648-9E51E5B2E8F7@cs.ubc.ca> <54D44F94.2080505@gmail.com>
 <1CA06B0A-D8FB-4BDF-8EE8-6D8A7923B90D@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54D46562.7000307@gmail.com>

On 2/5/2015 9:53 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> On 2015-Feb-05, at 9:22 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>
>> OK:  Confirmed two things:  There's 240V between the two HOT terminals at the outlet, and the ground appears to be grounded (I get continuity between the ground on the nearby 120V outlet (which I know is properly grounded) and the neutral terminal of the 240V outlet.)
>>
>> So it looks like I should be good to go here.  One last question -- does it matter which hot wire goes to which terminal in this case?
> Nope.

Thanks for the help (to you and everyone else who chimed in!) -- I wired 
it up and plugged it in and it came to life quite nicely!  All 
self-tests pass as evidenced by the below photo:

http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/dap/selftest.jpg

Looks like I'll invest in a 240V outlet or two.  Can't wait to get it to 
do something useful (for some definition of 'useful'); I'm in the 
process of getting the software tapes archived (thanks to the help of a 
local QIC expert) but once that's done...

Thanks again,
Josh


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  6 01:02:53 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 23:02:53 -0800
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfA-pk3Gx7BB3GKn-kfk-teBGr_5q8wu0p3NEvXkOYj2JA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B31EA@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CAHYQbfA-pk3Gx7BB3GKn-kfk-teBGr_5q8wu0p3NEvXkOYj2JA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D4671D.2000401@sydex.com>

On 02/05/2015 03:40 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:

>    OK, please forgive my ignorance, here.  To give you some idea of my
> electronics expertise level, I'd like you to know that I just googled
> crowbar :D

...and you got Ma and Pa Kettle, right?

(a reference for us old fogies)

--Chuck



From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Fri Feb  6 01:05:10 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 07:05:10 +0000
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfB5d_6TfoQLSCJuN-EU3qCYhNn-=KQRqrt+bCLyJWxfZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAHYQbfB5d_6TfoQLSCJuN-EU3qCYhNn-=KQRqrt+bCLyJWxfZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150206070510.GA19598@mooli.org.uk>

On Thu, Feb 05, 2015 at 03:26:14PM -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> I think CFLs are kind of terrible.
> http://www.richsoil.com/CFL-fluorescent-light-bulbs.jsp

I certainly won't miss CFLs, but that site is also veering on the conspiracy
nut rant complete with cherry-picked facts to support it.

The basic problem is that cheap-arse CFLs are over-marketed junk that make
false claims as to the quantity and quality of light output, and an
incandescent really is better than these on pretty much everything except power
consumption. AFAICS, most mass-market CFLs fall into this category.

There are however some nice outliers such as the ~2000lm 6500K bulb I found at
an electrical wholesalers. Turn that bad boy on and you can almost hear the
spiders frying from all the light pouring into the corners of the room.

LED lighting is actually delivering what the CFLs falsely claimed, provided one
doesn't need more than about 400lm per bulb due to heat issues. For the
customary single bulb per room in typical UK lighting, it means we're stuck
with CFLs until the technology improves or one replaces the light fitting with
one that takes multiple bulbs. We'll probably see a whole load of crappy LED
bulbs when that finally becomes mainstream though.


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  6 01:30:34 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 23:30:34 -0800
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <20150206070510.GA19598@mooli.org.uk>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAHYQbfB5d_6TfoQLSCJuN-EU3qCYhNn-=KQRqrt+bCLyJWxfZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150206070510.GA19598@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <54D46D9A.9020308@sydex.com>

On 02/05/2015 11:05 PM, Peter Corlett wrote:

> LED lighting is actually delivering what the CFLs falsely claimed, provided one
> doesn't need more than about 400lm per bulb due to heat issues. For the
> customary single bulb per room in typical UK lighting, it means we're stuck
> with CFLs until the technology improves or one replaces the light fitting with
> one that takes multiple bulbs. We'll probably see a whole load of crappy LED
> bulbs when that finally becomes mainstream though.

I'll buy CFLs when I can safely put a 100-watt equivalent LED in a 
base-up recessed, insulated "can" type fixture (of which I have many) 
and expect it to perform for the estimated lifetime.

When I contacted the manufacturer (GE) for some CFLs in the same 
configuration pooping out after about 6 months of service, I received 
the response that CFLs were not designed for that type of service.  When 
I inquired for what device does operate in that configuration, I 
received the response that a halogen bulb would do nicely.

Last year, during a very wet snowstorm, our power was interrupted by a 
tree falling on the HV distribution lines to the neighborhood, my 
neighbor who'd just refitted his home with LEDs lost every single 
installed lamp.  We (on the same circuit) lost none.

I think the CFL would not be viable were it not for cheap overseas labor 
needed to assemble the ballast unit components.

--Chuck


From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Fri Feb  6 01:33:53 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 07:33:53 +0000
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D4003B.2010509@btinternet.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net>
 <54D4003B.2010509@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20150206073353.GB19598@mooli.org.uk>

On Thu, Feb 05, 2015 at 11:43:55PM +0000, Rod Smallwood wrote:
[...]
> [Maplin's] on line store is still good for some hard to get components.

That's not really been my experience, except that they have relatively poor
turn-over of components to the point it's almost a source of NOS parts.

> We do have Farnell, CPC and RS components, They are mail order only but have
> huge number of different stock lines.

RS have a few trade counters dotted around the country. The most convenient one
for Londoners is probably the one in the industrial estate to the west of the
former Olympic site. The River Lea makes public transport and pedestrian access
a bit of a chore though. (I used to go over that way by bike.)

To make it up, there are a few exemplary classic East End greasy spoon cafes in
and around that estate.

> I also buy within the EEC as there is no customs duty to pay and VAT is the
> same as here or less.

Only in the specific case of physical goods; for "digital" goods the vendors
are supposed to charge *your* local VAT rate, i.e. 20%. Many I know have gone
"sod all of that paperwork, I'm not going to sell outside my home country any
more".

For small shipments from outside the EEA, HMRC can't be bothered to levy VAT
and import duty anyway, especially if they don't recognise the sender. What
this mainly seems to mean is that I can buy random eBay tat from the other side
of the world tax-free, but American vendors are greedy (or shamefully
inefficient) and gouge so much on the shipping that even an empty box would
attract punitive charges at this end.


From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Feb  6 01:44:05 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 08:44:05 +0100
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>

Noel Chiappa wrote:

>     > From: Brent Hilpert
> 
>     > Well, try removing W1 to isolate the output of the xtal oscillator E15
>     > from inverter input pin E4.4.
> 
> Thanks! Too late to try it today, but first thing tomorrow..
> 
> It seems like every time you answer one of my queries, I smack my forehead
> and say 'That's an excellent idea! Why didn't _I_ think of that!?!?' :-)

Hmm, may be since his hints are standard debugging technique and you aren't
really familiar with debugging??
> 
>     > If you're not familiar with them, E15 is an integrated xtal oscillator,
>     > not just a crystal - the crystal and oscillator logic are both in that
>     > can
> 
> I'm not familiar, so thanks for the tip. Wonder where I'll find one if that's
> what's bad... :-)
> 
>     > Could also (with W1 removed) pull E4.4 hi/lo while watching the
>     > inverter output E4.16 to see if it responds correctly with the
>     > inversion.
> 
> Since it's a tri-state, I may need to hit the enable somehow. Oh, wait, I
> see, it's hard-wired on via a pull-down. (I wonder why they needed a
> pull-down? And I wonder what the test point is there for?) And I guess I need
> like a 5K series pull-up resistor to +5, right? (Ground I can just tie
> directly, right?)
> 
> Anyway, thanks again for the help - very, very useful.
> 
> 	Noel

You don't ned no pullup for +5. All open TTL inputs are reading High w/o
any pullup.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From simski at dds.nl  Fri Feb  6 02:39:21 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 09:39:21 +0100
Subject: GNT-4601 punch cable help
In-Reply-To: <54CF9220.9000405@dds.nl>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502012340130.47958@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <54CF9220.9000405@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <54D47DB9.1000903@dds.nl>

well I located the machine and it turns out that the connector closest 
to the corner is used. we made a nullmodem cable going to a db9 
connector and we grab the papertapes on a 600/1200 baud setting as 
handshaking is somewhat broken on the pc side and we want to be shure to 
get al the bits. :-)

Our capture of pdp-8 tapes is here:
https://github.com/Hack42/Museum/tree/master/Papertapes

On 02-02-15 16:05, Simon Claessen wrote:
> we have a 4601 and i've made a nullmodem cable, but at the moment, I
> cant to remember on which connector it went. i think is was the
> connector going to the terminal, not the computer one. via the dip
> switches on the bottom you can preset three speed settings, available at
> a switch on the top. I will take a look wednesday when i'm back at the
> museum.
>
> simon
>
> On 02-02-15 05:43, Mike Loewen wrote:
>>     I have a box of old HP paper tapes to read, and am having an awful
>> time trying to build the right serial cable to connect a GNT-4601
>> reader/punch to a Linux PC.  Does anyone have a known good cable diagram
>> and stty settings that will work?  Thank.
>>
>>
>> Mike Loewen                mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
>> Old Technology                http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
>>
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Fri Feb  6 02:47:46 2015
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 08:47:46 +0000
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <20150206073353.GB19598@mooli.org.uk>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net>
 <54D4003B.2010509@btinternet.com>
 <20150206073353.GB19598@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqFT1roW1i_ybSKkTBTvUnuSexpdCN90LrGOkMAfJUdAGg@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 February 2015 at 07:33, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 05, 2015 at 11:43:55PM +0000, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> [...]
> > [Maplin's] on line store is still good for some hard to get components.
>

I won't do business with Maplin any more.  Not ever.

They are cretins.  I've had really bad experiences with the video cards
they sell, in particular.  They tend to fail in days or weeks, and then
Maplin will refuse to accept them back unless they are completely dead.
They insist on "testing" them, which means you have to wait *weeks* for
them to turn around and tell you that the card is "fine" because they can
plug it into a bench machine and get video.

Never mind that as soon as you use a video mode above 800x600, the display
fails because the memory is reject garbage or something.  I wouldn't buy a
fuse there.


-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift

From gerardcjat at free.fr  Fri Feb  6 03:49:18 2015
From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 10:49:18 +0100
Subject: ISA ( PC ) 8" floppy disk CONTROLLER  ???
Message-ID: <5947C365501D470088B5380895E64B16@medion>

Thanks Shaun  !!
If you find the interface card and associated documentation, I would be interested.
Please, let me know

My philosophy :

DBIT adapter is probably a very good product ..... but If I can stand with ** genuine ** "old stuff", I would love it .  

---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
http://www.avast.com

From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 03:50:54 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 03:50:54 -0600
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOL+go5LeZ4jZgv-z49ZmuCg8LAJBM162-zfTqO0DW+iw@mail.gmail.com>

I probably have all the DEC bricks here. I can't see that one costing over
$100, unless i slept through something...

I agree with Tony. If you can learn to fix something, you have a new skill
that can always be useful.

I know a lot of great software people that are not great at hardware. I am
NOT a software person. If you can take the time to learn, have the right
test equipment, and can find parts, then by all means go for it.

If you have problems with a board or other part, I might have one you can
use for troubleshooting.  Feel free to contact me off list.

You might want to look at a "unibus troubleshooting guide", which I think
has a bit on the 45. I can't find mine right now. bitsavers has it.

Best of luck to you- a nice project.

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 3:47 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:

>   Hey everyone, making some progress here -- thanks for all the tips so
> far!
>
>   Most of the power regulators are fine, but both H745 regulators seem to
> be toast.  Only getting -1.2 volts; should be -15 and they squeal angrily
> when I turn the pot.  The surplus shops seem to want $200 for one, so
> that's not an option for me.
>
>   How does one repair such a beast?
>
> thx
> jake
>
> P.S. Also, the main H742s are sagging just a little, but I didn't see an
> adjustment on them to bring them up.  Anyone know where to look?
>

From jason at textfiles.com  Fri Feb  6 03:53:50 2015
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 04:53:50 -0500
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqFT1roW1i_ybSKkTBTvUnuSexpdCN90LrGOkMAfJUdAGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net>
 <54D4003B.2010509@btinternet.com>
 <20150206073353.GB19598@mooli.org.uk>
 <CAEvVyqFT1roW1i_ybSKkTBTvUnuSexpdCN90LrGOkMAfJUdAGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd2nqgmnS+rQ4bX2k5+my-Fnm2uTdg00m2gtLyDwUB6kcA@mail.gmail.com>

So, I've now had to sit through 20 of these "Radio Shack" threads. Here's
all the aspects:

- They were really great when I needed them (30 years ago)
- Here is my brilliant business plan to have kept them afloat (be like 30
years ago)
- I did go in there recently, and they were awful
- Here's what is sort of like Radio Shack was 30 years ago, now (surprise,
they're all mail order)

But I'm not bored or anything.

I think if Radio Shack had shifted to a Newegg model, it might have gone
on, but I bet they'd have to do the same thing Newegg is now doing, which
is diversifying into a nerdtastic amazon, and sticking sketchy-o-matic
third party resellers under their brand umbrella (which Staples, Walmart,
Office Depot, Target and everyone else is doing).

I will say the coolest place I've been in that's physical in the last few
years was the unassumingly named "Electronics Supply Co." in Kansas City,
MO. It makes you want to build a robot.

http://www.eskc.com/Default.asp


On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 3:47 AM, John Many Jars <john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net
> wrote:

> On 6 February 2015 at 07:33, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Feb 05, 2015 at 11:43:55PM +0000, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> > [...]
> > > [Maplin's] on line store is still good for some hard to get components.
> >
>
> I won't do business with Maplin any more.  Not ever.
>
> They are cretins.  I've had really bad experiences with the video cards
> they sell, in particular.  They tend to fail in days or weeks, and then
> Maplin will refuse to accept them back unless they are completely dead.
> They insist on "testing" them, which means you have to wait *weeks* for
> them to turn around and tell you that the card is "fine" because they can
> plug it into a bench machine and get video.
>
> Never mind that as soon as you use a video mode above 800x600, the display
> fails because the memory is reject garbage or something.  I wouldn't buy a
> fuse there.
>
>
> --
> Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
> Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
>
> --------
> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
> that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift
>

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Fri Feb  6 03:59:40 2015
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 10:59:40 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <CAPgw8HMJRdvicyx5hqGmKJHLVYwW1CPCEpJfsavEL63+qn+arg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAPgw8HMJRdvicyx5hqGmKJHLVYwW1CPCEpJfsavEL63+qn+arg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061046160.5098@linuxserv.home>

On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, John Kaur wrote:
> If anyone has worked up a led replacement for the '45, would be of interest.
> The original incandescents are not easy to find, even tho have a couple
> left.

Hmm, I thought that expect for some very first examples, the 11/45 has 
red LEDs in the front panel. At least mine came with LEDs (ser.nr. 5122).
Yours must be one of the first ones, then.

Christian

From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Feb  6 04:11:54 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 11:11:54 +0100
Subject: Pdp11/23+ EPROM upgrade
In-Reply-To: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>
References: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D4936A.3080207@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-05 19:49, Roe Peterson wrote:
> I want to update the EPROMs on my 11/23+, which currently has 2716s.  I'm going to need 64k chips, and I understand 2764s won't work on this board.
>
> What are my replacement options?  I have a fairly capable programmer, it can probably handle anything with 64k capacity.

??? I don't get it.
64K chips? The 11/23 currently uses the 2716, which is what? 2K (bytes)? 
I doubt there are any more address lines going to that chip in the first 
place, and second, the memory is mapped in the I/O space which have a 
total of 8K, and that should cover not only the boot rom, but also all 
CSRs of all devices you have in the machine. A 64K chip is going to be 
totally meaningless.

So why are you looking for a 64K chip? (27512 I would assume that would 
be...)

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Fri Feb  6 04:14:11 2015
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 10:14:11 +0000
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAKnFLd2nqgmnS+rQ4bX2k5+my-Fnm2uTdg00m2gtLyDwUB6kcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net>
 <54D4003B.2010509@btinternet.com>
 <20150206073353.GB19598@mooli.org.uk>
 <CAEvVyqFT1roW1i_ybSKkTBTvUnuSexpdCN90LrGOkMAfJUdAGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKnFLd2nqgmnS+rQ4bX2k5+my-Fnm2uTdg00m2gtLyDwUB6kcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqFjJ1sn4vPvgNcCSmj72_tAUYUWD47D=reFet685wCTSA@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 February 2015 at 09:53, Jason Scott <jason at textfiles.com> wrote:

> So, I've now had to sit through 20 of these "Radio Shack" threads. Here's
> all the aspects:
>
> Hey, I spent my childhood hanging around that place.  It's special.  (:
-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift

From dave at 661.org  Fri Feb  6 04:34:10 2015
From: dave at 661.org (Dave G.)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 10:34:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: seeking quality tape recorder
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061013280.1693@nyx.feedle.net>


I'm looking for a decent quality portable tape recorder.  I do want 
recording ability so I can make new tapes for my C64 among other purposes.

I was about to purchase an Ion Tape Express Plus, but was told by 
Silent700 in #classiccmp that his imposes an abnoxious throbbing noise to 
the audio.  Does anyone have any different experiences with that unit? 
Can you recommend something good other than the Ion one?


-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From rwiker at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 04:42:52 2015
From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 11:42:52 +0100
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <54D46562.7000307@gmail.com>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
 <AE515E57-CC7F-4AAA-A855-5563C5CDB83B@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54D44000.4020209@gmail.com>
 <A42715D5-1921-41FF-A648-9E51E5B2E8F7@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54D44F94.2080505@gmail.com>
 <1CA06B0A-D8FB-4BDF-8EE8-6D8A7923B90D@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54D46562.7000307@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANPmQ-DBfWbXQQTa-ACuZN+cseQV5JYu3NkyUeDZijgapP9tfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2/5/2015 9:53 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>
>> On 2015-Feb-05, at 9:22 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> OK:  Confirmed two things:  There's 240V between the two HOT terminals
>>> at the outlet, and the ground appears to be grounded (I get continuity
>>> between the ground on the nearby 120V outlet (which I know is properly
>>> grounded) and the neutral terminal of the 240V outlet.)
>>>
>>> So it looks like I should be good to go here.  One last question -- does
>>> it matter which hot wire goes to which terminal in this case?
>>>
>> Nope.
>>
>
> Thanks for the help (to you and everyone else who chimed in!) -- I wired
> it up and plugged it in and it came to life quite nicely!  All self-tests
> pass as evidenced by the below photo:
>
> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/dap/selftest.jpg
>
> Looks like I'll invest in a 240V outlet or two.  Can't wait to get it to
> do something useful (for some definition of 'useful'); I'm in the process
> of getting the software tapes archived (thanks to the help of a local QIC
> expert) but once that's done...
>
> Thanks again,
> Josh
>
>
Congratulations - that computer should privide a lot of fun (although
finding something useful for it to do may be a challenge :-) )

From cfox1 at cogeco.ca  Fri Feb  6 05:23:18 2015
From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 06:23:18 -0500
Subject: seeking quality tape recorder
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061013280.1693@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061013280.1693@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <c713b4$eomt02@fipsb01.cogeco.net>

At 05:34 AM 06/02/2015, you wrote:

>I'm looking for a decent quality portable tape recorder.  I do want 
>recording ability so I can make new tapes for my C64 among other purposes.
>
>I was about to purchase an Ion Tape Express Plus, but was told by 
>Silent700 in #classiccmp that his imposes an abnoxious throbbing 
>noise to the audio.  Does anyone have any different experiences with 
>that unit? Can you recommend something good other than the Ion one?
>
>
>--
>David Griffith
>dave at 661.org

         If you are looking for reel to reel I would highly recommend 
Nagra, but they are a bit pricey.

         Charlie Fox


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Fri Feb  6 05:35:27 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 11:35:27 +0000
Subject: Pdp11/23+ EPROM upgrade
In-Reply-To: <54D4936A.3080207@update.uu.se>
References: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>
 <54D4936A.3080207@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <54D4A6FF.4040205@dunnington.plus.com>

On 06/02/2015 10:11, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-02-05 19:49, Roe Peterson wrote:
>> I want to update the EPROMs on my 11/23+, which currently has 2716s.
>> I'm going to need 64k chips, and I understand 2764s won't work on this
>> board.

Correct, wrong physical size.  DEC used Motorola MCM68766.

> 64K chips? The 11/23 currently uses the 2716, which is what? 2K (bytes)?
> I doubt there are any more address lines going to that chip in the first
> place, and second, the memory is mapped in the I/O space which have a
> total of 8K, and that should cover not only the boot rom, but also all
> CSRs of all devices you have in the machine. A 64K chip is going to be
> totally meaningless.

Not so.  Only the earliest release 11/23+ (KDF11-BA) used 2KB firmware; 
all the later versions (there are at least six) used 8KB and had more 
functionality.  The M8189 board is designed to take either.  In both 
cases, the ROM is paged exactly as it is in a BDV11, and only 256 bytes 
are visible at a time.  J22/J23/J24 are the links used to configure the 
sockets, and you'll find the settings on page 2-8 of the KDF11-BA Users 
Guide.  Seven address bits to the ROMs come from the bus, six are 
provided by paging registers on the CPU board, for a total of 13 address 
bits, or 8KB address space.

> So why are you looking for a 64K chip? (27512 I would assume that would
> be...)

2764.  He meant 64K bits.

-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 05:41:12 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 05:41:12 -0600
Subject: Pdp11/23+ EPROM upgrade
In-Reply-To: <54D4936A.3080207@update.uu.se>
References: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>
 <54D4936A.3080207@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <43D572A1-F7F4-4B3D-978B-F0582386C26F@gmail.com>


> On Feb 6, 2015, at 4:11 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
> 
>> On 2015-02-05 19:49, Roe Peterson wrote:
>> I want to update the EPROMs on my 11/23+, which currently has 2716s.  I'm going to need 64k chips, and I understand 2764s won't work on this board.
>> 
>> What are my replacement options?  I have a fairly capable programmer, it can probably handle anything with 64k capacity.
> 
> ??? I don't get it.
> 64K chips? The 11/23 currently uses the 2716, which is what? 2K (bytes)? I doubt there are any more address lines going to that chip in the first place, and second, the memory is mapped in the I/O space which have a total of 8K, and that should cover not only the boot rom, but also all CSRs of all devices you have in the machine. A 64K chip is going to be totally meaningless.
> 
> So why are you looking for a 64K chip? (27512 I would assume that would be...)

2716 = 16k bits = 2kbytes X 8 bits
2764 = 64k bits = 8kbytes X 8 bits

The latest rom images for the 11/23+ require 8kbyte chips.


> 
>    Johnny
> 
> -- 
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Feb  6 05:53:45 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 12:53:45 +0100
Subject: Pdp11/23+ EPROM upgrade
In-Reply-To: <43D572A1-F7F4-4B3D-978B-F0582386C26F@gmail.com>
References: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>
 <54D4936A.3080207@update.uu.se>
 <43D572A1-F7F4-4B3D-978B-F0582386C26F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D4AB49.40001@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-06 12:41, Roe Peterson wrote:
>
>> On Feb 6, 2015, at 4:11 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2015-02-05 19:49, Roe Peterson wrote:
>>> I want to update the EPROMs on my 11/23+, which currently has 2716s.  I'm going to need 64k chips, and I understand 2764s won't work on this board.
>>>
>>> What are my replacement options?  I have a fairly capable programmer, it can probably handle anything with 64k capacity.
>>
>> ??? I don't get it.
>> 64K chips? The 11/23 currently uses the 2716, which is what? 2K (bytes)? I doubt there are any more address lines going to that chip in the first place, and second, the memory is mapped in the I/O space which have a total of 8K, and that should cover not only the boot rom, but also all CSRs of all devices you have in the machine. A 64K chip is going to be totally meaningless.
>>
>> So why are you looking for a 64K chip? (27512 I would assume that would be...)
>
> 2716 = 16k bits = 2kbytes X 8 bits
> 2764 = 64k bits = 8kbytes X 8 bits
>
> The latest rom images for the 11/23+ require 8kbyte chips.

Ah, so 2764, not 64K bytes... Oh well... :-)
When did people start counting memory sizes in bits???

	Johnny


From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Feb  6 05:55:57 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 12:55:57 +0100
Subject: Pdp11/23+ EPROM upgrade
In-Reply-To: <54D4A6FF.4040205@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>
 <54D4936A.3080207@update.uu.se> <54D4A6FF.4040205@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <54D4ABCD.2010006@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-06 12:35, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> On 06/02/2015 10:11, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2015-02-05 19:49, Roe Peterson wrote:
>>> I want to update the EPROMs on my 11/23+, which currently has 2716s.
>>> I'm going to need 64k chips, and I understand 2764s won't work on this
>>> board.
>
> Correct, wrong physical size.  DEC used Motorola MCM68766.
>
>> 64K chips? The 11/23 currently uses the 2716, which is what? 2K (bytes)?
>> I doubt there are any more address lines going to that chip in the first
>> place, and second, the memory is mapped in the I/O space which have a
>> total of 8K, and that should cover not only the boot rom, but also all
>> CSRs of all devices you have in the machine. A 64K chip is going to be
>> totally meaningless.
>
> Not so.  Only the earliest release 11/23+ (KDF11-BA) used 2KB firmware;
> all the later versions (there are at least six) used 8KB and had more
> functionality.  The M8189 board is designed to take either.  In both
> cases, the ROM is paged exactly as it is in a BDV11, and only 256 bytes
> are visible at a time.  J22/J23/J24 are the links used to configure the
> sockets, and you'll find the settings on page 2-8 of the KDF11-BA Users
> Guide.  Seven address bits to the ROMs come from the bus, six are
> provided by paging registers on the CPU board, for a total of 13 address
> bits, or 8KB address space.

Ok. I wasn't aware that the 11/23 had a page selection mechanism for the 
boot rom.

>> So why are you looking for a 64K chip? (27512 I would assume that would
>> be...)
>
> 2764.  He meant 64K bits.

That was a different story, yes. :-)

	Johnny


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Fri Feb  6 06:09:32 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 12:09:32 +0000
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>

On 06/02/2015 07:44, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> You don't ned no pullup for +5. All open TTL inputs are reading High w/o
> any pullup.

Yeah.  So someone at Commodore thought when they designed one version of 
the PET.  We had a few that erratically misbehaved.  It turned out that 
one input on a 74LS00 (I think it was) was floating, and switching noise 
made it erratic.  Floating inputs place the internal circuitry in an 
intermediate state, can cause increased current draw, typically slow the 
device down by increasing switching times, and can cause misbehaviour.

TTL is supposed to have a 1K pullup (to limit possible transients); 
LSTTL can be directly connected to Vcc.

-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From dave at 661.org  Fri Feb  6 06:14:44 2015
From: dave at 661.org (Dave G.)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 12:14:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: seeking quality tape recorder
In-Reply-To: <c713b4$eomt02@fipsb01.cogeco.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061013280.1693@nyx.feedle.net>
 <c713b4$eomt02@fipsb01.cogeco.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061213470.1976@nyx.feedle.net>

On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Charles E. Fox wrote:

> At 05:34 AM 06/02/2015, you wrote:
>
>> I'm looking for a decent quality portable tape recorder.  I do want 
>> recording ability so I can make new tapes for my C64 among other purposes.
>> 
>> I was about to purchase an Ion Tape Express Plus, but was told by Silent700 
>> in #classiccmp that his imposes an abnoxious throbbing noise to the audio. 
>> Does anyone have any different experiences with that unit? Can you 
>> recommend something good other than the Ion one?
>
> If you are looking for reel to reel I would highly recommend Nagra, but 
> they are a bit pricey.

Oops.  I forgot to state that I'm looking for something to work with audio 
cassette tapes.

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 06:21:03 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 12:21:03 -0000
Subject: seeking quality tape recorder
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061213470.1976@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061013280.1693@nyx.feedle.net>
 <c713b4$eomt02@fipsb01.cogeco.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061213470.1976@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <038a01d04207$609d24e0$21d76ea0$@gmail.com>

Dave,

 You might want to try a "wanted" on your local freecycle (or freegle if you
are UK based) groups. Often folks have these hoarded away.

 wwwfreeglecycle.org

Dave Wade

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave G.
> Sent: 06 February 2015 12:15
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: seeking quality tape recorder
> 
> On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Charles E. Fox wrote:
> 
> > At 05:34 AM 06/02/2015, you wrote:
> >
> >> I'm looking for a decent quality portable tape recorder.  I do want
> >> recording ability so I can make new tapes for my C64 among other
> purposes.
> >>
> >> I was about to purchase an Ion Tape Express Plus, but was told by
> >> Silent700 in #classiccmp that his imposes an abnoxious throbbing noise
to
> the audio.
> >> Does anyone have any different experiences with that unit? Can you
> >> recommend something good other than the Ion one?
> >
> > If you are looking for reel to reel I would highly recommend Nagra,
> > but they are a bit pricey.
> 
> Oops.  I forgot to state that I'm looking for something to work with audio
> cassette tapes.
> 
> --
> David Griffith
> dave at 661.org
> 
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From lordofhyphens at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 01:30:03 2015
From: lordofhyphens at gmail.com (Joe Lenox)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 01:30:03 -0600
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <BLU172-W213358DA5541A620078990BA380@phx.gbl>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060412270.31519@nyx.feedle.net>
 <BLU172-W213358DA5541A620078990BA380@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAPoio6dva4MPSCjr2p2N-DkiinsmOxVT0vdj96PkpJ7r_jS7jQ@mail.gmail.com>

Apparently I need to go on a spend spree at the local shack, clean them out
of relays and project boxes and arduinos
On Feb 6, 2015 12:40 AM, "Randy Dawson" <rdawson16 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> I stopped at Rat Shack today.
>
> The signs outside were the 50-70% off kind of stuff.
>
> My motivation, was just to come inside, and 'cheer on' the lone guy behind
> the counter.
>
> Sure, they can suck at times, but as said in other posts, 'when I really
> need that 7805 voltage reg, they were there, and a mile away'
> Radio Shack has always been a stop for the fast last minute parts.  No
> complaints, I do electronic design as a consulting business and there has
> been a fair share of  on the bench at 8PM and 'I need it now' for a show
> and tell tomorrow, and its not in the lab stock.
>
> I got the TRS-80 the day it came out.  We knew the Z-80, but months of
> BASIC peek-poke and learning the expansion bus, adding a disk got us way
> ahead of the other S-100 guys just getting started.
>
> Radio Shack, I will miss you, but I don't think you are done just yet.
> Your online presence is what we have been asking for.
>
> Dropping into the store for the LM317 IC, is probably gone.
>
> Randy
>
> > Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 04:13:16 +0000
> > From: dave at 661.org
> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> > Subject: Re: Radio Shack
> >
> > On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Charles wrote:
> >
> > > yeah the 80?s kept their radio shack?.
> > >
> > > 90?s kept their radio shack?
> > >
> > > anything after that ? is like "Cell Phone Accessory Express?
> > > if you are lucky they might have A switch or A capacitor?.  And MAYBE
> it MIGHT be the value you actually need? but how many people re-cap their
> power supply with ONE cap?
> > >
> > > how many people need just one cap?
> > >
> > > thinking about this is making me angry?.  I am glad radio shack is
> gone?
> > > rest in hell!
> >
> > I often have episodes of "dammit! that was my last xx uF cap!" and then I
> > go to Radio Shack to see if I can find it.
> >
> >
> > --
> > David Griffith
> > dave at 661.org
> >
> > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> > A: Top-posting.
> > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
>

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 06:16:09 2015
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 07:16:09 -0500
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
Message-ID: <CAJj77rssFyvK6L4tbnsN7ykEuzOL1iCDmqfKaWgE2yGFoRPtPw@mail.gmail.com>

I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A module" and M8163
"Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
regarding it.  At least the M8162 has a pair of 20ma-style SLU connectors
on it, but no UARTs that I can see.

Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?  Or to
something else entirely?

Is the MKA11 (which I can't find documented online) a revised MK11?  The
field-guide seems to imply this given its entry for the M8164 which
basically reads like this:

M8158       MK11                       U   Address buffer module

M8159       MK11                       U   Data buffer module

M8160       MK11                       U   Control A module

M8161       MK11                       U   Control B module

M8162       MK11                       U   Port MUX A module

M8163       MK11                       U   Port MUX B module

M8164       MK11/MKA11           U   Data buffer module (Replaces M8159)


It seems to me that something is incorrect in the field-guide, but none of
my researches have identified where the error is and what the right
answer(s) might be.


Anyone here have any experience/knowledge with/of the MKA11 and/or the
M8261/M8163?


Thank you,


paul

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Feb  6 07:42:18 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri,  6 Feb 2015 08:42:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
Message-ID: <20150206134218.1246D18C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Brent Hilpert

    >> Well, try removing W1 to isolate the output of the xtal oscillator E15
    >> from inverter input pin E4.4.

Sigh, the crystal output is dead as a doornail. Total flat-line. Guess I'm
going to have to find a new one...

I actually think there's an open in there, because the input to the buffer
inverter stays at +2V, whether the crystal is connected or not. If there was
some sort of internal short in the crystal taking its output to ground, I'd
have expected it to pull the inverter's input down.

    > TP4 looks to be an 'input' test point, rather than an output. The
    > pull-down resistor value (150 or 180 ohms) has been selected such that
    > it is low enough to allow enough current to flow through the tri-state
    > control input E4.1 to pull it low normally, but high enough to allow
    > one to connect TP4 high, to enter tri-state

Ah, got it. (I tended to assume test points were outputs, but I need to
remember that they may be inputs.)

    > What the point of going to tri-state is, is not clear, considering that
    > W1 is there for an external clock. A conjecture is there may have been
    > some external test fixture that tri-stated it for some sort of
    > synchronous single-step clocking.

Yeah, but couldn't they have lifted the W1 jumper, and fed their test clock in
that way? Eh, not important.

    > Could also check the V reading on the open E4.4 input.

See above - +2V is a floating TTL input, ISTR?


    > From: Holm Tiffe

    > Hmm, may be since his hints are standard debugging technique and you
    > aren't really familiar with debugging??

I cheerfully admit to being primarily a software person. But I have been
debugging broken hardware off and on for 30+ years - although not as a
principal occupation, of course. I think it's more just that my mind does not
do hardware intuitively (the more-so, the further one gets from the ideal -
aka digital at the design level - to real hardware) - I have to think about
it.

    > You don't ned no pullup for +5. All open TTL inputs are reading High
    > w/o any pullup.

That's why all those boards use pullups on unused inputs that need to be 1,
right? :-) But you're probably correct for a quick test.

       Noel

From francois.dion at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 08:46:10 2015
From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 09:46:10 -0500
Subject: seeking quality tape recorder
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061013280.1693@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061013280.1693@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <00E2450E-B6E7-48EC-BC2D-93EB443AB1D9@gmail.com>

I really like my Marantz PMD430. That one is stereo, supports all tape formulations, bias adjust, high quality preamps, Dolby and dbx. 3 heads. Built like a tank, superb mechanicals. One of the best units ever made.

For software though, the better choice is the mono version. Something like a Marantz PMD222 would be more than enough. A steal too. Works great with the apple ][

Let me know if you have any questions.

Francois
--
raspberry-python.blogspot.com - www.3dFutureTech.com - @f_dion

On Feb 6, 2015, at 5:34, "Dave G." <dave at 661.org> wrote:

> 
> I'm looking for a decent quality portable tape recorder.  I do want recording ability so I can make new tapes for my C64 among other purposes.

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Fri Feb  6 10:08:10 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 09:08:10 -0700
Subject: seeking quality tape recorder
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061213470.1976@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061013280.1693@nyx.feedle.net>
 <c713b4$eomt02@fipsb01.cogeco.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061213470.1976@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <54D4E6EA.60007@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/6/2015 5:14 AM, Dave G. wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Charles E. Fox wrote:
>
>> At 05:34 AM 06/02/2015, you wrote:
>>
>>> I'm looking for a decent quality portable tape recorder.  I do want
>>> recording ability so I can make new tapes for my C64 among other
>>> purposes.
>>>
>>> I was about to purchase an Ion Tape Express Plus, but was told by
>>> Silent700 in #classiccmp that his imposes an abnoxious throbbing
>>> noise to the audio. Does anyone have any different experiences with
>>> that unit? Can you recommend something good other than the Ion one?
>>
>> If you are looking for reel to reel I would highly recommend Nagra,
>> but they are a bit pricey.
>
> Oops.  I forgot to state that I'm looking for something to work with
> audio cassette tapes.
>
Radio Shack ...


From js at cimmeri.com  Fri Feb  6 10:09:37 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 11:09:37 -0500
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <CANPmQ-DBfWbXQQTa-ACuZN+cseQV5JYu3NkyUeDZijgapP9tfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
 <AE515E57-CC7F-4AAA-A855-5563C5CDB83B@cs.ubc.ca> <54D44000.4020209@gmail.com>
 <A42715D5-1921-41FF-A648-9E51E5B2E8F7@cs.ubc.ca> <54D44F94.2080505@gmail.com>
 <1CA06B0A-D8FB-4BDF-8EE8-6D8A7923B90D@cs.ubc.ca> <54D46562.7000307@gmail.com>
 <CANPmQ-DBfWbXQQTa-ACuZN+cseQV5JYu3NkyUeDZijgapP9tfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D4E741.2000700@cimmeri.com>


Impressive 220 wiring on this IBM 
mainframe.  See last photo of sequence.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Opportunity-Vintage-IBM-Computer-complete-system-uses-3-Phase-power/161586387740



On 2/6/2015 5:42 AM, Raymond Wiker wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Josh Dersch<derschjo at gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>> On 2/5/2015 9:53 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>>
>>> On 2015-Feb-05, at 9:22 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK:  Confirmed two things:  There's 240V between the two HOT terminals
>>>> at the outlet, and the ground appears to be grounded (I get continuity
>>>> between the ground on the nearby 120V outlet (which I know is properly
>>>> grounded) and the neutral terminal of the 240V outlet.)
>>>>
>>>> So it looks like I should be good to go here.  One last question -- does
>>>> it matter which hot wire goes to which terminal in this case?
>>>>
>>> Nope.
>>>
>> Thanks for the help (to you and everyone else who chimed in!) -- I wired
>> it up and plugged it in and it came to life quite nicely!  All self-tests
>> pass as evidenced by the below photo:
>>
>> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/dap/selftest.jpg
>>
>> Looks like I'll invest in a 240V outlet or two.  Can't wait to get it to
>> do something useful (for some definition of 'useful'); I'm in the process
>> of getting the software tapes archived (thanks to the help of a local QIC
>> expert) but once that's done...
>>
>> Thanks again,
>> Josh
>>
>>
> Congratulations - that computer should privide a lot of fun (although
> finding something useful for it to do may be a challenge :-) )
>
>

From js at cimmeri.com  Fri Feb  6 10:12:36 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 11:12:36 -0500
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <54D46D9A.9020308@sydex.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAHYQbfB5d_6TfoQLSCJuN-EU3qCYhNn-=KQRqrt+bCLyJWxfZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150206070510.GA19598@mooli.org.uk> <54D46D9A.9020308@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54D4E7F4.3010701@cimmeri.com>



On 2/6/2015 2:30 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/05/2015 11:05 PM, Peter Corlett 
> wrote:
>
>> LED lighting is actually delivering 
>> what the CFLs falsely claimed, 
>> provided one
>> doesn't need more than about 400lm 
>> per bulb due to heat issues. For the
>> customary single bulb per room in 
>> typical UK lighting, it means we're 
>> stuck
>> with CFLs until the technology 
>> improves or one replaces the light 
>> fitting with
>> one that takes multiple bulbs. We'll 
>> probably see a whole load of crappy LED
>> bulbs when that finally becomes 
>> mainstream though.
>
> I'll buy CFLs when I can safely put a 
> 100-watt equivalent LED in a base-up 
> recessed, insulated "can" type fixture 
> (of which I have many) and expect it 
> to perform for the estimated lifetime.
>
> When I contacted the manufacturer (GE) 
> for some CFLs in the same 
> configuration pooping out after about 
> 6 months of service, I received the 
> response that CFLs were not designed 
> for that type of service.  When I 
> inquired for what device does operate 
> in that configuration, I received the 
> response that a halogen bulb would do 
> nicely.
>
> Last year, during a very wet 
> snowstorm, our power was interrupted 
> by a tree falling on the HV 
> distribution lines to the 
> neighborhood, my neighbor who'd just 
> refitted his home with LEDs lost every 
> single installed lamp.  We (on the 
> same circuit) lost none.


So, why do you think that happened with 
the LEDs, Chuck?

- J.

From js at cimmeri.com  Fri Feb  6 10:15:05 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 11:15:05 -0500
Subject: Incandescent lights
In-Reply-To: <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54D4E889.4050201@cimmeri.com>



On 2/5/2015 9:04 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/05/2015 03:14 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
>>
>> I don't have links to all the 
>> relevant documents handy, but 100W, 
>> 75W, 60W and 40W are all banned from 
>> import or manufacture in the US 
>> (rough service bulbs are exempt...for 
>> now at least). Stores are allowed to 
>> sell off existing stocks and 
>> inventory, and many chains stocked up 
>> heavily before the second half 
>> (60W/40W) of the light bulb ban took 
>> effect.
>>
> I have VERY few incandescents here.  I 
> have started converting our kitchen
> (where the lights are on a LOT of the 
> day) to LED.  I couldn't find anything
> I liked (some LED fixtures are 
> actually on recall as a fire hazard) so I
> built my own.  I made a 10 LED fixture 
> with Cree 1W LEDs first for our
> pantry/laundry room, which had the 
> worst lighting in the house.  (A recessed
> fixture too cramped to fit a CFL, and 
> made so it lit a spot on the floor and
> not the room.)  I built my own 
> constant current source for it, and it 
> was
> a huge success.  So, then I built two 
> retrofits for dual 48" fluorescent tubes.
> These have a string of 20 1 W Cree 
> LEDs and a commercial LED lighting
> power supply.  The old magnetic 
> ballast drew 103 W, the new LED system
> shows 21 W, and the lights actually 
> appear brighter than the fluorescents.

Very interesting -- how did you build a 
retrofit for a 48" T12?

- J.

From christian_liendo at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 10:56:43 2015
From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 16:56:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: LED was Re: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <20150206070510.GA19598@mooli.org.uk>
References: <20150206070510.GA19598@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <433166182.552403.1423241803385.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message -----

>From: Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk>
>LED lighting is actually delivering what the CFLs falsely claimed

I have replaced every bulb in my apartment with the CREE LEDs from Home Depot.

I like them much better than my older Incandescent lights and my older CFLs.

I used to get CFLs from Panasonic, because the cheaper ones were terrible. 

I very happy with my LEDs.  

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Feb  6 11:09:50 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 11:09:50 -0600
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <20150206070510.GA19598@mooli.org.uk>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAHYQbfB5d_6TfoQLSCJuN-EU3qCYhNn-=KQRqrt+bCLyJWxfZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150206070510.GA19598@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <54D4F55E.5020103@pico-systems.com>

On 02/06/2015 01:05 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:
> LED lighting is actually delivering what the CFLs falsely 
> claimed, provided one doesn't need more than about 400lm 
> per bulb due to heat issues. For the customary single bulb 
> per room in typical UK lighting, it means we're stuck with 
> CFLs until the technology improves or one replaces the 
> light fitting with one that takes multiple bulbs. We'll 
> probably see a whole load of crappy LED bulbs when that 
> finally becomes mainstream though. 
Yes, my home-made LED retrofits are 44" long, made on two 
strips of 22" x 2"
PCB material, as a heat sink.  They still run somewhat warm, 
but probably
no more than 50 C.  I think they will last a LONG time.

These LEDs are rated at 102 Lm/W, so the efficiency is 
insanely high.
20 W of LEDs easily outshines TWO 48" fluorescent tubes.

Jon

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 11:13:04 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 18:13:04 +0100
Subject: Remember Coherent?
In-Reply-To: <54CFF00B.5090708@attglobal.net>
References: <CAMTenCFXC0PX2WCeeSZjFVeiU+mpkZ=5BXVTrmntXDgdvk0qLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502021208160.20716@deltasoft.com>
 <54CFF00B.5090708@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFZ6dwCz6wYhvL9qUFwcFc0pr=kEA7Y9oMyHYb98WX6Xg@mail.gmail.com>

On 2 February 2015 at 22:45, David Schmidt <david at attglobal.net> wrote:
>   And even I could afford it while in college - $99.95 from Mark Williams
> Company.

Ahh, the differences in trans-Atlantic pricing.

When I was at uni -- 1985-1988 -- I had a Sinclair 128K Spectrum with
an MGT DISCiPLE floppy interface, a single 780kB 5?" drive and a
Panasonic 9-pin dot-matrix printer. I was far & away the most
high-tech person in my year. That little assortment cost me about ?300
over 2-3y, and that was a massive stretch of my budget. Each single
component was as far under GBP100 as I could find, because there was
no way in heck I could afford to drop a hundred on my computer.

So any thought of a PC-compatible (price then, several thousand
pounds) was not even a daydream.

A year or so after I left, I bought an Acorn Archimedes A310 -- an
8MHz ARM2 with 512kB of RAM, a 20MB ST-506 HD and an 800kB 3?" floppy
drive. With an actual *monitor!* (I used a TV on the Sinclair.) That
had multitasking & a GUI and everything & I lost interest in x86 kit
until it finally died, about 5y later.



-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Feb  6 11:35:02 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 11:35:02 -0600
Subject: Incandescent lights
In-Reply-To: <54D4E889.4050201@cimmeri.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com> <54D4E889.4050201@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <54D4FB46.6040201@pico-systems.com>

On 02/06/2015 10:15 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
>
>
>
> Very interesting -- how did you build a retrofit for a 48" 
> T12?
>
> - J.
>
OK, here's a bad picture of my first retrofit, 10 Cree 1W 
lamps and a home-made power
supply.  The fluorescent tube retrofits are made on strips 
of 2" wide PC board material.
I have some left over from an old project, so cut it into 2" 
strips 22" long.  I cut
little grooves in the copper to make 11 2 x 2" squares, and 
check with a meter that
they are isolated.  I then solder 10 Cree 
XPEBWT-01-0000-00CC2 LEDs across the
grooves.  Then, I solder a pair of these strips in series to 
make a 20 LED string.
I need to make a picture of this next time I'm in there, or 
make another unit
(which is on the to-do list).

I use an LED Supply LED25W-72-C0350 power supply from 
Digi-Key to power
it.  These units have been running in a flush drop-ceiling 
fixture for almost a year
now, and are still doing very well.  The 10-LED job has been 
running almost
2 years, now.

These things are NOT cheap, but I'm expecting to get better 
life than most
of the commercial units, which I think have crummy thermal 
design. I think
they work out well.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  6 11:37:42 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 09:37:42 -0800
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <54D4E7F4.3010701@cimmeri.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAHYQbfB5d_6TfoQLSCJuN-EU3qCYhNn-=KQRqrt+bCLyJWxfZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150206070510.GA19598@mooli.org.uk> <54D46D9A.9020308@sydex.com>
 <54D4E7F4.3010701@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <54D4FBE6.6040206@sydex.com>

On 02/06/2015 08:12 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:

>
> So, why do you think that happened with the LEDs, Chuck?

Good question.  I asked them if any of their computer gear or appliances 
suffered a similar fate and they said, no, it was just the LEDs.

My guess is that the LED units are singularly intolerant of supply 
spikes.  On reflection, I should have asked them for a smoked unit and 
done some investigation--but at the time I was working on getting a 
large oak tree off my driveway so that I could get out. (You should have 
seen the 80' ponderosa pine that missed the house by about 6 inches.)

Priorities, you know.  I should have also asked about the brand used. 
There's some terrible cut-rate junk out there.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  6 11:42:37 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 09:42:37 -0800
Subject: Incandescent lights
In-Reply-To: <54D4FB46.6040201@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com> <54D4E889.4050201@cimmeri.com>
 <54D4FB46.6040201@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54D4FD0D.2070907@sydex.com>

On 02/06/2015 09:35 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

> These things are NOT cheap, but I'm expecting to get better life than most
> of the commercial units, which I think have crummy thermal design. I think
> they work out well.

Commercial drop-in replacements have been available for some time.  E.g.

http://www.amazon.com/LEDwholesalers-Brightest-Fluorescent-Replacement-Approved/dp/B008XHVAA6

Not a bad price (comparatively)  either.

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Feb  6 11:51:46 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 09:51:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: LED/Incandescent lights
In-Reply-To: <54D4FD0D.2070907@sydex.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com> <54D4E889.4050201@cimmeri.com>
 <54D4FB46.6040201@pico-systems.com> <54D4FD0D.2070907@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150206094905.J46457@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Commercial drop-in replacements have been available for some time.  E.g.
> http://www.amazon.com/LEDwholesalers-Brightest-Fluorescent-Replacement-Approved/dp/B008XHVAA6
> Not a bad price (comparatively)  either.

What do all-y'all think of the Feit LED 4' shop light?
("3700 lumen 38W 4100K")
Costco sells them for $40, and sometimes further discount.

"But, if I was sold out of them, then I'd only charge $30"


From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Fri Feb  6 11:58:43 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 17:58:43 +0000
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <20150206070510.GA19598@mooli.org.uk>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAHYQbfB5d_6TfoQLSCJuN-EU3qCYhNn-=KQRqrt+bCLyJWxfZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150206070510.GA19598@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20150206175843.GA13131@mooli.org.uk>

On Fri, Feb 06, 2015 at 07:05:10AM +0000, Peter Corlett wrote:
[...]
> LED lighting is actually delivering what the CFLs falsely claimed, provided
> one doesn't need more than about 400lm per bulb due to heat issues. For the
> customary single bulb per room in typical UK lighting, it means we're stuck
> with CFLs until the technology improves or one replaces the light fitting
> with one that takes multiple bulbs. We'll probably see a whole load of crappy
> LED bulbs when that finally becomes mainstream though.

I'm going to retract this paragraph as I happened to be in Ryness earlier, and
got to check out the 2015 range which included 1600lm LED bulbs at a not
completely outrageous price. Sadly, the only high-power ones they stock have a
colour temperature of 2700K, aka "is this thing on?" for those of us who are
severely red-green colourblind, and I got grunted at in the usual London
Customer Service style when I asked if they had any in 6500K and was informed I
would have to buy a CFL.

Anyway, given that 1600lm LED bulbs exist, and 6500K LED bulbs exist, one that
does both must surely exist. Now if only I could figure out where to buy
a few...


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  6 12:04:08 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 10:04:08 -0800
Subject: LED/Incandescent lights
In-Reply-To: <20150206094905.J46457@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com> <54D4E889.4050201@cimmeri.com>
 <54D4FB46.6040201@pico-systems.com> <54D4FD0D.2070907@sydex.com>
 <20150206094905.J46457@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <54D50218.7030005@sydex.com>

On 02/06/2015 09:51 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> Commercial drop-in replacements have been available for some time.  E.g.
>> http://www.amazon.com/LEDwholesalers-Brightest-Fluorescent-Replacement-Approved/dp/B008XHVAA6
>> Not a bad price (comparatively)  either.
>
> What do all-y'all think of the Feit LED 4' shop light?
> ("3700 lumen 38W 4100K")
> Costco sells them for $40, and sometimes further discount.
>
> "But, if I was sold out of them, then I'd only charge $30"

I don't think much of Feit in any case. But you do find them in a lot of 
big-box stores.

--Chuck



From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 12:29:34 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 12:29:34 -0600
Subject: Pdp11/23+ EPROM upgrade
In-Reply-To: <54D3CC34.1010409@sydex.com>
References: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKmka16e1dtLHmBPJQWRcDC32zVz=XD+quAZ-UL=_Vrxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3CC34.1010409@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <77DCAA3B-A113-400F-A713-F1E641CB123A@gmail.com>

On Feb 5, 2015, at 2:01 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 02/05/2015 11:43 AM, Glen Slick wrote:
>>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Roe Peterson <roeapeterson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I want to update the EPROMs on my 11/23+, which currently has 2716s.  I'm going to need 64k chips, and I understand 2764s won't work on this board.
>>> 
>>> What are my replacement options?  I have a fairly capable programmer, it can probably handle anything with 64k capacity.
>> 
>> MCM68766

I found 10 of these on eBay for 5 bucks apiece, guaranteed erased and tested, with warranty.

Thanks, everyone.


> 
> There's also the '68765--a crap-shoot as far as which is easier to find.
> 
> --Chuck
> 
> 

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Fri Feb  6 12:39:55 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 18:39:55 -0000
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
In-Reply-To: <20150206001653.D625418C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150206001653.D625418C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <051601d0423c$4d8cd2d0$e8a67870$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
> Chiappa
> Sent: 06 February 2015 00:17
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
> 
>     > From: Jacob Ritorto
> 
>     > I guess this crowbar thing tripping, is just its way of trying to
>     > protect the rest of the system from overcurrent, right?
> 
> Over-voltage. Voltage != current. :-)
> 
>     > And the dried up cap is one thing what could make it think there was
an
>     > overcurrent situation, correct?
> 
> I think the concept is that the cap could have shorted out, thereby
causing a
> too-high voltage to pass through it - or something like that! :-) In
general, cause
> the circuit to mis-behave.
> 
>     > I don't know that I'm going to understand how to read the schematic.
> 
> I struggle with the analog circuits too. Just keep plugging away at it,
each will
> slowly start to make sense. (Not the most complicated/sophisticated
aspects,
> but if you understand a lot of what's going on, I'm sure someone here can
help
> on the tricky bits.)
> 
>     > Also going to try to find a manual that describes the power supply.
> 
> DEC's maintainence/technical manuals are very good indeed for explaining
> how the analog circuits work - especially for those of us who can't just
glance at
> a schematic and instantly, intuitively understand how the whole thing
works.
> For me, reading them is really pretty much a must before trying to
> debug/repair analog stuff.
> 
>     > But what is a valid test once I find it?
> 
> This is where you need test instruments; an ESR meter (although that's not
a
> universal solvent), a capacitance meter, etc, etc. (Also an ohmmeter, to
check
> for shorted caps.)
> 
> 
>     > I don't have much electronics gear here.
> 
> If you seriously expect to repair something like an 11/45, at a _minimum_
you
> need a decent 'scope. Don't even _try_ thinking you can do it without one.
> Fuhgeddaboutit.
> 
> I like Tektronix 465's - they are common on eBay, and if you're patient,
you can
> get one for $60-70. They are also a 'scope much used on these machines
BITD.
> (We did.)
> 
> Past that? Well, there are things that are nice to have (e.g. a
de-soldering
> station), but you can often work around them (e.g. a pair of dikes and a
solder
> sucker).


I am sooo happy that I finally bought a desoldering station. Not an
expensive one, but it really does make life easier.


A logic analyser would be nice, and I keep meaning to get one, but I
> haven't, yet, so they aren't essential. (Although for _some_ faults, a
'scope just
> doesn't cut it. If you can write a loop, fine. If not... time for a logic
analyzer.)


I am starting to feel the need for one of these. I bought a cheap Thurlby
one a few months ago, but the membrane keyboard doesn't work, even though
the rest of it seems fine :( My backup plan is to use a Spartan 3 dev board
as a self-made logic analyser. I will connect it to the pods I got with the
Thurlby.

Rob

> 
> I'm trying to think what else is absolutely essential, past the 'scope
(and the
> meter - you ought to buy your own, they aren't that much). Nothing comes
to
> mind immediately - perhaps someone else here can add to the list.
> 
> 	Noel


From microfilm at microfilm.kscoxmail.com  Fri Feb  6 12:43:34 2015
From: microfilm at microfilm.kscoxmail.com (Shaun Halstead)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 12:43:34 -0600
Subject: Xerox 4050/4090 print controllers
Message-ID: <54D50B56.1050707@microfilm.kscoxmail.com>


  I'm doing some cleaning and purging around my shop, and I have a collection of Xerox 4050 and 4090
printers and parts, plus the controllers for these beasts.  Is there any interest at all in this
equipment?  I have to get rid of it, soon, but don't want to simply scrap it if there's someone
interested in such niche equipment.
  The CPU itself is a DJC11, 11/70 on a chip.  Other peripherals include a Bus & Tag online
interface boardset, graphics processor options (I have one seat of each of the two different options
that exist, but the system can only handle one at a time), memory boards, FDDC2 floppy controller
(contains an Intel 8086, plus a set of Western Digital chips), a board dedicated to print controller
to print engine communications, a hard disk interface (up to four MFM disks, in pairs.  Originally
had two Fujitsu 56MB disks, later replaced with Seagate drives).  The terminal for the system is
either a Lear-Siegler ADM-3A, or a Link Technologies terminal in ADM-3A mode, both with minor
keyboard modifications. (I have several of these terminals on hand.)

  Barring interest here, the whole lot will be salvaged and the chips sold off.  Keep in mind, this
stuff is big.  The individual interface boards are slightly larger than a hex-height Unibus board.
The card cage for the system is about 24" wide, 18" deep, and 30" tall.  The complete controller
cabinet, with 9T tape drive, is over 5 feet tall, 3 feet wide, and 2 feet deep.
  I also have other equipment and supplies (8" and 5.25" floppies, new in sealed packages, for
example) to move.  Everything is located in Wichita, Kansas.

--Shaun
   Microfilm Services, Inc.

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  6 12:59:24 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 10:59:24 -0800
Subject: LED/Incandescent lights
In-Reply-To: <54D50218.7030005@sydex.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com> <54D4E889.4050201@cimmeri.com>
 <54D4FB46.6040201@pico-systems.com> <54D4FD0D.2070907@sydex.com>
 <20150206094905.J46457@shell.lmi.net> <54D50218.7030005@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54D50F0C.1070509@sydex.com>

On 02/06/2015 10:04 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> I don't think much of Feit in any case. But you do find them in a lot of
> big-box stores.

I'll add a bit that the drop-in T12/T8-style replacement tubes don't 
seem to make a lot of sense in most cases.  A traditional fluorescent 
lamps emission pattern is pretty much omnidirectional, radially, at 
least.  So the typical 2-tube fluorescent fixture is painted white 
inside to reflect the light emitted from the side obscured by the 
fixture.  An LED is by nature highly directional, so it would seem to be 
a waste of energy and money to use a 23W LED replacement tube priced at 
several times the cost of a 32W T8 tube.

I purchased a box (30) of Philips 32W T8 lamps for less than $50 from my 
local Lowe's.  Given that we have some of the lowest electricity costs 
in the nation here in the Pacific Northwest, it didn't make sense to 
upgrade the fixtures to LED.  I'm probably not going to live long enough 
to recoup the investment from energy savings.    The ROI just isn't 
there for me.

Not that I don't believe in conserving when practical.  I spent more on 
a super-insulated water heater because I know that the big gray thing 
consumes a sizable portion of my electrical budget.  On the other hand, 
I use an inductive cooktop in the kitchen, not because it saves energy, 
but that it's so much nicer to cook with than the traditional electric 
resistive version.

Finally, I turn my computer gear off with a switch on a power strip 
because it's safer from a fire perspective to do so, not because I want 
to save on "zombie power".


--Chuck




From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 13:23:45 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 11:23:45 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
Message-ID: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>


You are so absolutely right, you should have been their marketing director
and they'd still be around. People still like to build things just the same!
They completely missed the Maker movement, the computer mod stuff, the
switch to the web. Also too many stores, too small. The stuff they had in
there lately was an appalling mish-mash of uninteresting random stuff. No
need to read the news, you could so clearly see that the company management
was so totally lost and aimless by just visiting a store. 

Here in the Valley, Fry's Electronics took over, and then made it so much
better. Fry's is where you stop at lunch time, for amateur or professional
stuff alike, and get an instant replacement for your fried LM7805. It also
keeps our company electronics lab and fab and IT alive. And you can get an
espresso at the same time, and a pack of sugar loaded cookies if you are a
late night programmer. And a concert on a full size Steinway while you are
picking up your capacitor. Let's not forget the best of it, being chased
around by the totally incompetent sales person that will convince you that
SATA and USB are one and the same thing. Trying to lose him by walking
progressively faster. Man, they can walk fast too, these are trained
professionals. And for the grand finale, being stripped searched going out
the door. How is that for the ultimate nerd store experience!

Love it all. The Fry brothers are geniuses. 

Marc 

>fahimi wrote:
>
>RadioShack had it essentially right in the 2014 Super Bowl commercial - the
80s called and they did want their store back. What they screwed up was
thinking that meant >the old store had to go and be replaced with the
current monstrosity.
>RadioShack should have brought back the store of the 1980s and updated it
items like cheap cables, Raspberry Pi kits, etc. I.E. hobbyist and do it
yourself stuff. Yes, they >still would have to close a number of locations
(do you really need a ratshack on every corner?) but what would have been
left behind would have thrived...



From christian_liendo at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 13:41:01 2015
From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 19:41:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Did Dr. Marc Dean Design the IBM PC or was it Lewis Eggebrecht
Message-ID: <1085250855.591158.1423251661046.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Ok.. So Engadget wrote this article claiming Dr. Mark Dean was chief engineer of the 12-person team that designed the original IBM PC in the early '80s


http://www.engadget.com/2015/02/06/mark-dean-pc-pioneer/

I had always thought it was Lewis Eggebrecht.

I know there were three teams and one of them won and it was Eggebrecht's team.

Did Dr. Marc Dean work on Eggebrecht's team or did he run one of the other ones?

From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Feb  6 13:43:42 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 11:43:42 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D5196E.9030504@jwsss.com>


On 2/6/2015 11:23 AM, Marc Verdiell wrote:
> They completely missed the Maker movement, the computer mod stuff, the
> switch to the web.
All of the stores I've visited have a lot of arduino and other kit. I 
would say they have as much as a brick and mortar store can have.

With the financial distress they've been in they don't seem to have 
forced the pricing that other distributors have, but they do have all of 
it, and there are (were) 4 stores within 2 or so mile of my house which 
have arduino's, raspberry pi and other things on the hook.

They probably were not getting into the maker groups because they didn't 
advertise.  The maker people are not those who have been doing much 
going to Radio Shack for anything, and if RS had any presence there, I 
didn't see it.  I only discovered the stocking of some kits when i went 
to clean out my inventory of gift cards, and other such at the end of 
last year with the pending bankruptcy filing.

Also Microcenter has a lot of the same, though their stock seems 
spotty.  I can buy things one week then sometimes it is 2 or 3 till I 
see something again.

Now if they would just stock PDP8/A systems life would be complete.

Thanks
Jim

From g-wright at att.net  Fri Feb  6 13:54:26 2015
From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 11:54:26 -0800
Subject: RA-81 issues
Message-ID: <1423252466.33748.YahooMailNeo@web185303.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Did not see this come through so here it s again.

I have a rack full of  RA81's, all Pass Rom base self test.  If  I try to spin 

up one of the drives, It will start to spin up and then just stop.  There are 

no front panel lights that come on or codes on the terminal screen.  all 3 

drives do the same.

These are not connected to a controller, and  the manual does not say this
is need. 

The forth one has no drive and the motor seems to turn hard,  is there a brake
on the motor ???

- what I'm I missing here
Thanks Jerry

From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Fri Feb  6 13:58:50 2015
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 14:58:50 -0500
Subject: Fry's expansion?  was: RE: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15b701d04247$54083680$fc18a380$@sudbrink@verizon.net>

Marc Verdiell wrote:
> Here in the Valley, Fry's Electronics took over, and then made it so
> much better. Fry's is where you stop at lunch time, for amateur or
> professional stuff alike, and get an instant replacement for your
> fried LM7805.

A few years ago, there was a rumor that Fry's was going to expand out
of the Valley.  I wonder whether that might happen now that RS is
on its way out.

Bill S.


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Fri Feb  6 13:59:55 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 11:59:55 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D5196E.9030504@jwsss.com>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
 <54D5196E.9030504@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <B7AACBA5-2DE3-4FA9-BE74-D30668256802@nf6x.net>

I seem to recall reading within the last month or three, somebody's opinion where they took the total number of Arduinos reported to have ever been sold, estimated the total revenue of all of them, contrasted that against the vastly larger annual revenue of the ailing Radio Shack, and concluded that the maker movement just isn't large enough to have made a difference in Radio Shack's survival even if Radio Shack was the movement's sole supplier. As much as many of us (including me!) lament the passing of the old local source for electronic components, I've seen plausible arguments that component sales have never been a large percentage of the revenue that kept Radio Shack store doors open.

Well anyway, I hope that I can talk my coworkers into stopping by the nearest RS store at lunchtime today to see if it's still open and whether it's gone into clearance mode.

I also plan to visit the RS near my home tomorrow. They had some neat hobby stuff when I was there a couple weeks ago, so maybe I should plunder it if it's on sale. :)


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Feb  6 14:14:49 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 20:14:49 +0000
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfA-pk3Gx7BB3GKn-kfk-teBGr_5q8wu0p3NEvXkOYj2JA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B31EA@EXMBX16.thus.corp>,
 <CAHYQbfA-pk3Gx7BB3GKn-kfk-teBGr_5q8wu0p3NEvXkOYj2JA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3486@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

>   OK, please forgive my ignorance, here.  To give you some idea of my
> electronics expertise level, I'd like you to know that I just googled
> crowbar :D

I do not want this to be taken the wrong way. I am not trying to insult you, nor
do I want to put you off restoring the 11/45 (which is a very nice machine).

FWIW, the 11/45 was the first PDP11 I ever restored and the first I ever used.
All I had was the printset (schematics and fortunately microcode flowcharts). 
No technical or maintenance manual. No instruction set listing. No web pages
to look at. No bitsavers. No list like this one. I managed it, and you can too. 

But the 11/45 is complicated, both in terms of the number of components and 
way it was designed. There are quite a few non-obvious (at least to me) bits of
logic circuitry in there. 

I think you need to read some more general books on electronics too. I am not 
sure what to recomend here (and of course suggestions are welcome). I do like
'The Art of Electronics' by Horrowitz and Hill, it does start from a basic level, but
it may be rather heavy going at the start. It's still a book to consider (and probably
buy), since you won't grow out of it. But there may be other inttoductory books to
look at.

-tony

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  6 14:15:22 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 21:15:22 +0100
Subject: RA-81 issues
In-Reply-To: <1423252466.33748.YahooMailNeo@web185303.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1423252466.33748.YahooMailNeo@web185303.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS506A9AC4BC4254DADDB26386380@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Jerry Wright
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2015 8:54 PM
To: cc_talk ; Jerry Wright
Subject: RA-81 issues

I have a rack full of  RA81's, all Pass Rom base self test.  If  I try to 
spin
up one of the drives, It will start to spin up and then just stop.  There 
are
no front panel lights that come on or codes on the terminal screen.  all 3
drives do the same.

These are not connected to a controller, and  the manual does not say this
is need.

The forth one has no drive and the motor seems to turn hard,  is there a 
brake
on the motor ???

- what I'm I missing here
Thanks Jerry



I would start checking the lamps in the buttons. Without checking
the documentation, the button lamps show an error code which is
listed in the manual. So, check the lamps ...

As far as I remember, the RA81 spins up to speed even when it
is not connected to the SDI controller.

Yes, the drive motor has a brake. If you open the lid, you can see
a handle at the right side, at the front. One position pulls a band
as a brake on the pulley, the other position relaxes the band from
the pulley. Which position ... read the fine manual ;-)
Or there is not a band (that's in another drive), then that handle
tensions or relaxes the drive belt.
BTW, at the front of the HDA is a (white) lever. It locks the heads
or let them free.

Not sure if it has effect, but the RA81 has a drive sequence plug.
If power-up sequencing is not used (when you have several RA81
you don't want to start up all of them at once...)   ISTR that you
need to short 2 pins. Normally, there is a plug installed that has
2 pins shorted.

- Henk 


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Feb  6 14:23:36 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 20:23:36 +0000
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3498@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> 
> I picked up a "large" machine* (for certain definitions of large) that's

It's not that large. Or at least mine isn't, Deskside, really.

> I don't know if this machine works, and I'd rather not invest in 220V
> wiring quite yet unless it does.  And, let's face it, I'm spoiled and I
> demand instant gratification and I'd like to know as soon as possible if
> this machine is a basket case or not.

FWIW, mine currently has PSU problems (which is why I was given it). The 
choppers are dead short all ways round. But it is a fairly conventional SMPSU
in there, albeit a large one (750W? 1kW?). You may be able to reconfigure it 
for 115V mains, but watch out for the fans

> So:  since all this stuff is in the basement, I'm just about 15 feet
> away from the dryer, which at first glance runs off an outlet that meets
> my needs.  I even have a NEMA 10-30p plug here that I could wire up to
> the existing power cable for the computer.  But looking into it I have
> doubts that it's actually that simple; in particular since this house
> was built well before 1996 and so the outlet is not grounded; there's a
> neutral lug and two hot lugs (I assume two 120V A/C lines out of phase?)
> and I'm guessing that might not sit well with the power supply in this
> computer.

This will not meet any kind of electrical code, but it should be OK for testing...

The DAP doesb't care that the 230V is centre-tapped to ground (in fact that is
expected in the States). The ground to the case is a safety ground only.

So I would first check you get 230V (or so) between the 2 'hot' pins of the dryer
socket. If so, then wire up a kludge cable that connects those to the power pins
of the DAP and the ground pin to a good local ground (if necessary the ground
pin of a normal 115V socket outlet). This would allow you to power up the machine.

> * An AMT DAP 610, if you must ask.  It's an array processor from the
> late 80s, with 64x64 1-bit processors.  If the machine doesn't run I'm

Is it as many as that? I thought mine was 32*32, but maybe you have a bigger
machine. Mine says DAP610 on it.

I only have user manuals, but I have thought about trying to figure out the hardware
at some point. Maybe I will manage it.

> pretty much SOL for spare parts, schematics, service manuals, or
> anything beyond customer-level documentation (which I've recently
> scanned, btw, if anyone's curious...)

-tony

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  6 14:27:56 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 21:27:56 +0100
Subject: RA-81 issues
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS506A9AC4BC4254DADDB26386380@phx.gbl>
References: <1423252466.33748.YahooMailNeo@web185303.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <DUB110-DS506A9AC4BC4254DADDB26386380@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS77D076A100A45E29C77E686380@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Henk Gooijen 
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2015 9:15 PM 
To: Jerry Wright ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: RA-81 issues 

At the bottom of my RA81 web page [1] is the fault table, so you
don't need to search for the manual. Check the FAULT lamp
(and the others)!

[1] direct link: www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/ra81-info.html

- Henk

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Feb  6 14:29:20 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 20:29:20 +0000
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D440E4.4090201@sydex.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060412270.31519@nyx.feedle.net>,
 <54D440E4.4090201@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B34A9@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> 
> Chuck's rule of thumb:  If the component cost is less than $10, but
> several of them.  In other words, if you need a 10uF 15v electrolytic,
> buy 10 of them.
> 
> My parts drawers overfloweth.

I do a similar thing, but based on usefulness rather than price. If I was 
buying a small mains transformer it may well cost < \pounds 10.00 
but I would probably only buy one or two. But for an expensive but
useful IC I might well buy at least 5.

For really common parts (LEDs, resistors, decoupling caps,
IC sockets, etc) I often go to the quantity to get the first discount
price (often 50 or 100). I use them enough.. 

My parts _rooms_ overfloweth :-)

-tony

From rickb at bensene.com  Fri Feb  6 14:33:22 2015
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 12:33:22 -0800
Subject: Fry's expansion?  was: RE: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <15b701d04247$54083680$fc18a380$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
 <15b701d04247$54083680$fc18a380$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB465AFBC6@mail.bensene.com>

There is a Fry's in Wilsonville, Oregon -- They've already expanded out
of "the valley".

-Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill
> Sudbrink
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2015 11:59 AM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: Fry's expansion? was: RE: Radio Shack
> 
> Marc Verdiell wrote:
> > Here in the Valley, Fry's Electronics took over, and then made it so
> > much better. Fry's is where you stop at lunch time, for amateur or
> > professional stuff alike, and get an instant replacement for your
> > fried LM7805.
> 
> A few years ago, there was a rumor that Fry's was going to expand out
of the
> Valley.  I wonder whether that might happen now that RS is on its way
out.
> 
> Bill S.


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  6 14:38:29 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 12:38:29 -0800
Subject: Fry's expansion?  was: RE: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <15b701d04247$54083680$fc18a380$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
 <15b701d04247$54083680$fc18a380$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <54D52645.2030803@sydex.com>

On 02/06/2015 11:58 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
> Marc Verdiell wrote:
>> Here in the Valley, Fry's Electronics took over, and then made it so
>> much better. Fry's is where you stop at lunch time, for amateur or
>> professional stuff alike, and get an instant replacement for your
>> fried LM7805.
>
> A few years ago, there was a rumor that Fry's was going to expand out
> of the Valley.  I wonder whether that might happen now that RS is
> on its way out.

Where have you been the last few years?

http://www.frys.com/ac/storeinfo/storelocator

--Chuck



From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Feb  6 14:41:14 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 21:41:14 +0100
Subject: RA-81 issues
In-Reply-To: <1423252466.33748.YahooMailNeo@web185303.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1423252466.33748.YahooMailNeo@web185303.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <54D526EA.60108@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-06 20:54, Jerry Wright wrote:
> Did not see this come through so here it s again.
>
> I have a rack full of  RA81's, all Pass Rom base self test.  If  I try to spin
>
> up one of the drives, It will start to spin up and then just stop.  There are
>
> no front panel lights that come on or codes on the terminal screen.  all 3
>
> drives do the same.
>
> These are not connected to a controller, and  the manual does not say this
> is need.
>
> The forth one has no drive and the motor seems to turn hard,  is there a brake
> on the motor ???
>
> - what I'm I missing here
> Thanks Jerry

Do you have the power start sequencing cables in place?
Also, are the belts engaged, and the transport locks disengaged?

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Fri Feb  6 14:45:08 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 12:45:08 -0800
Subject: Fry's expansion?  was: RE: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D52645.2030803@sydex.com>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
 <15b701d04247$54083680$fc18a380$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <54D52645.2030803@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <049501d0424d$cd256780$67703680$@net>

> Where have you been the last few years?
> 
> http://www.frys.com/ac/storeinfo/storelocator
> 
> --Chuck
> 

What he said! To be hones though I have not been to a Fry's in years. Are
they still viable? They used to be good for odds and end computer parts
(i.e. you needed a HDD, memory, occasional good deal on CPU) but even that
has been replaced by Newegg. I had even forgotten the bit about checking
your receipt on the way out.

-Ali


From cctalk at fahimi.net  Fri Feb  6 14:45:08 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 12:45:08 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <B7AACBA5-2DE3-4FA9-BE74-D30668256802@nf6x.net>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
 <54D5196E.9030504@jwsss.com> <B7AACBA5-2DE3-4FA9-BE74-D30668256802@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <049601d0424d$d09bf0a0$71d3d1e0$@net>

> I seem to recall reading within the last month or three, somebody's
> opinion where they took the total number of Arduinos reported to have
> ever been sold, estimated the total revenue of all of them, contrasted
> that against the vastly larger annual revenue of the ailing Radio
> Shack, and concluded that the maker movement just isn't large enough to
> have made a difference in Radio Shack's survival even if Radio Shack
> was the movement's sole supplier. As much as many of us (including me!)
> lament the passing of the old local source for electronic components,
> I've seen plausible arguments that component sales have never been a
> large percentage of the revenue that kept Radio Shack store doors open.

Mark,

I don't know about everyone else but what I had been talking about was a
shift from selling cell phones and "beats" head phones which you can buy
ANYWHERE (i.e. Mall, Mail Order, Best Buy, Staples) to stuff you can't find
everywhere. Hobbyist kits, specialty batteries, cheap cables (think
monoprice not monster), weird converters, connectors, electronic parts
(caps, resistors, ribbon cable, bread boards), etc. RS was not going to be
saved by one single product nor by competing in the super crowded space of
cell phones. They would also have to cut revenue expectations and costs. 

This may have saved the company and maybe not. So why didn't management go
this route? More than likely because it was far more profitable for them to
declare bankruptcy, take their golden parachutes, and run. 

Survival is a big deal for mom and pop businesses in big corporations just
hanging on is never the top priority.


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Feb  6 14:45:33 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 20:45:33 +0000
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <20150206073353.GB19598@mooli.org.uk>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net> <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net>
 <54D4003B.2010509@btinternet.com>,<20150206073353.GB19598@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B34CC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> 
> > [Maplin's] on line store is still good for some hard to get components.
> 
> That's not really been my experience, except that they have relatively poor
> turn-over of components to the point it's almost a source of NOS parts.

Maplin are often known as 'Craplin' by my friends....

25 years ago they had a reasonable range of components, and had most in
stock in the shops. They were very useful for 'emergency' supplies -- to the 
extent that when I was in Bristol there was a common question in the lab
'Anyone going to Craplin today, if so can you get me a couple of 555 timers' 
or whatever. 

Now they have a few components, but worse, a lot of the interesting lines are 
'web only' and can't be ordered or supplied in shops. This means ordering them
is as big a hassle as doing an RS or Farnell order, where a much better range is
available.

> > We do have Farnell, CPC and RS components, They are mail order only but have
> > huge number of different stock lines.
> 
> RS have a few trade counters dotted around the country. The most convenient one
> for Londoners is probably the one in the industrial estate to the west of the
> former Olympic site. The River Lea makes public transport and pedestrian access
> a bit of a chore though. (I used to go over that way by bike.)

When I was in SW London, the local-ish RS trade counter was called 'Heathrow'. It gave
its address as Hounslow and is actually in Feltham (go figure). But I had several orders
delivered there for me to collect with no problems at all.

Now I am in SE London, getting there would be a bit harder. I must try the E London
one.. Not sure how I would get there, but I will work it out.

I can remember when Edgware road was lined with electronics shops on both sides, new
and surplus components. In the early 1980s you could get anything from valves to
microprocessors there. And then of course there was Proops in Tottenham Court Road
for interesting surplus stuff. All gone :-(

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Feb  6 14:51:39 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 20:51:39 +0000
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqFT1roW1i_ybSKkTBTvUnuSexpdCN90LrGOkMAfJUdAGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net> <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net>
 <54D4003B.2010509@btinternet.com>
 <20150206073353.GB19598@mooli.org.uk>,
 <CAEvVyqFT1roW1i_ybSKkTBTvUnuSexpdCN90LrGOkMAfJUdAGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B34DD@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> 
> I won't do business with Maplin any more.  Not ever.
> 

This is one reason we called them Craplin. Even for simple components they
seemed to have a ridiculously high failure rate. We learnt to test everything
from there.

And getting a refund was a hassle. The couple of times I had defective
components from RS or Farnell they would send replacements next
day with no problems (OK, a couple of ICs is peanuts to them, but it is
still good customer service). With Maplin I once had to say simply
'Are you going to honour my statutory rights or am I going to walk
out of this shop and go straight to Trading Standards?'

> They are cretins.  I've had really bad experiences with the video cards
> they sell, in particular.  They tend to fail in days or weeks, and then
> Maplin will refuse to accept them back unless they are completely dead.
> They insist on "testing" them, which means you have to wait *weeks* for
> them to turn around and tell you that the card is "fine" because they can
> plug it into a bench machine and get video.

I shouldn't say this, but a friend of mine (not me, seriously) had this sort of
problem with a (modern) hard drive. His solution was to stick it in a 
microwave oven for a few minutes, then send it back...

-tony

From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Fri Feb  6 14:51:43 2015
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 15:51:43 -0500
Subject: Fry's expansion?  was: RE: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D52645.2030803@sydex.com>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
 <15b701d04247$54083680$fc18a380$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <54D52645.2030803@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <15cf01d0424e$b744b500$25ce1f00$@sudbrink@verizon.net>

Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/06/2015 11:58 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
> > Marc Verdiell wrote:
> >> Here in the Valley, Fry's Electronics took over, and then made it so
> >> much better. Fry's is where you stop at lunch time, for amateur or
> >> professional stuff alike, and get an instant replacement for your
> >> fried LM7805.
> >
> > A few years ago, there was a rumor that Fry's was going to expand out
> > of the Valley.  I wonder whether that might happen now that RS is
> > on its way out.
> 
> Where have you been the last few years?
> 
> http://www.frys.com/ac/storeinfo/storelocator
> 

Some other planet I guess.  Still, they haven't made it to my neighborhood,
the Washington, DC area.
 
Bill


From richardswingwood at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 14:52:53 2015
From: richardswingwood at gmail.com (Richard Swingwood)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 20:52:53 +0000
Subject: Microdata disk/tape images
In-Reply-To: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
References: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
Message-ID: <CAMxNxyi2ddFiM2JvD2TVRVEtiAjYMS+W=kmrseZHwGgd=uYmLQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 February 2015 at 21:19, Ian McLaughlin <ian at platinum.net> wrote:

> Long shot, but does anyone know of any available disk/tape/paper tape/ROM
> images for any of the Microdata machines (800/1600) or the relatives
> (Intertechnique Multi-8/Multi-4, MAI Basic Four BB-II)?
>
> There?s a bit of documentation available - Bitsavers has a bit, and I have
> some MAI documentation that I?m in the process of scanning.  I?m toying
> with the idea of emulating this machine, but I?m having difficulty locating
> any software for it.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Ian


I'm in the same boat though my interest is in the M1600 implementation of
Reality.  At one point I started a SIMH implementation of the 1600 CPU but
didn't get very far before the idea of trying a FPGA/Verilog solution took
over.  That has gotten a bit further but is not progressing very fast.

If you want to swap notes and ideas or even collaborate on an emulation
then I'd be happy to help (& be helped :)

Richard.

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Fri Feb  6 14:55:09 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 12:55:09 -0800
Subject: Fry's expansion?  was: RE: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <049501d0424d$cd256780$67703680$@net>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
 <15b701d04247$54083680$fc18a380$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <54D52645.2030803@sydex.com> <049501d0424d$cd256780$67703680$@net>
Message-ID: <1930CCCD-E139-4724-B9CC-345005EC70E5@fozztexx.com>


On Feb 6, 2015, at 12:45 PM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:

> What he said! To be hones though I have not been to a Fry's in years. Are
> they still viable? They used to be good for odds and end computer parts
> (i.e. you needed a HDD, memory, occasional good deal on CPU) but even that
> has been replaced by Newegg. I had even forgotten the bit about checking
> your receipt on the way out.

I have two Fry?s within 20 minutes, and don?t go very often. Almost every time I go they are out of stock on whatever it is I?m looking for. They?ll have the next more expensive version and the next cheaper version, neither of which has the features I needed.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 14:55:39 2015
From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 15:55:39 -0500
Subject: Fry's expansion? was: RE: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <049501d0424d$cd256780$67703680$@net>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
 <54D52645.2030803@sydex.com> <049501d0424d$cd256780$67703680$@net>
Message-ID: <CAPi4v45uB1xQUpg8n62eoa1O+HL59q2_znNScj=VFiL4=FXCwQ@mail.gmail.com>

The local Fry's here in Atlanta GA was great when it opened, but has
degraded over time.

Oddly enough, they don't keep enough electrical components in stock and run
empty on various types.  At the same time, they've introduced all of these
high-end oscilloscopes and analyzers.

Predatory sales people and the list checking before leaving are still
standard Fry's procedure here.

Todd Killingsworth

On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 3:45 PM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:

> > Where have you been the last few years?
> >
> > http://www.frys.com/ac/storeinfo/storelocator
> >
> > --Chuck
> >
>
> What he said! To be hones though I have not been to a Fry's in years. Are
> they still viable? They used to be good for odds and end computer parts
> (i.e. you needed a HDD, memory, occasional good deal on CPU) but even that
> has been replaced by Newegg. I had even forgotten the bit about checking
> your receipt on the way out.
>
> -Ali
>
>

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Feb  6 14:55:53 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 15:55:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B34A9@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEJ01Dr8cUgDguTWbn84HONggHw_PJmEUdXgHCYtAOsZwG3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D3D776.4030809@snarc.net>
 <3ED4E6B5-4DE4-4DB0-9DBD-7C2B1DEBB214@uniwho.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502060412270.31519@nyx.feedle.net>,
 <54D440E4.4090201@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B34A9@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <201502062055.PAA04831@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> For really common parts (LEDs, resistors, decoupling caps, IC
> sockets, etc) I often go to the quantity to get the first discount
> price (often 50 or 100). I use them enough..

A while back I bought a thousand each of some of (what I find to be)
the most useful components (I think the list was 2N3904 and 2N3906
transistors, 1N914 diodes, and 100R, 1K, 3K3, 10K, and 33K resistors).
As compared to low-quantity prices, they were ludicrously cheap; I
think even the transistors were under two cents each.

I've never regretted it.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com  Fri Feb  6 12:57:43 2015
From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt))
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 11:57:43 -0700
Subject: DrDobbs
References: <54D50B56.1050707@microfilm.kscoxmail.com>
Message-ID: <A2C337CB0E8D4AE5A4CF8EB6B99AC2CC@RANGER1>

Due to a posting in December, I ordered 2 DVDs from DrDobbs store.
But have not yet received them.
I get no email responses or phone callbacks.

ddjstore at halldata.com
888-847-6188   appears disconnnected
415-947-6163   I can leave voice mail (listed on printed checkout receipt)

Any one know of better contacts for UBM Tech to follow through on this?
Thanks,
Keven Miller



From pete at pski.net  Fri Feb  6 15:06:20 2015
From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 16:06:20 -0500
Subject: DrDobbs
In-Reply-To: <A2C337CB0E8D4AE5A4CF8EB6B99AC2CC@RANGER1>
References: <54D50B56.1050707@microfilm.kscoxmail.com>
 <A2C337CB0E8D4AE5A4CF8EB6B99AC2CC@RANGER1>
Message-ID: <etPan.54d52ccc.54e49eb4.2b9@Peters-MacBook-Pro.local>

Dr. Dobbs is out of business as of Dec 2014. ?I suggest talking to your CC company if they charged you for any merchandise.

--?
Peter Cetinski


On February 6, 2015 at 3:59:40 PM, Keven Miller (rtt) (kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com) wrote:

Due to a posting in December, I ordered 2 DVDs from DrDobbs store.  
But have not yet received them.  
I get no email responses or phone callbacks.  

ddjstore at halldata.com  
888-847-6188 appears disconnnected  
415-947-6163 I can leave voice mail (listed on printed checkout receipt)  

Any one know of better contacts for UBM Tech to follow through on this?  
Thanks,  
Keven Miller  



From ggs at shiresoft.com  Fri Feb  6 15:08:39 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 13:08:39 -0800
Subject: Fry's expansion? was: RE: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <CAPi4v45uB1xQUpg8n62eoa1O+HL59q2_znNScj=VFiL4=FXCwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
 <54D52645.2030803@sydex.com> <049501d0424d$cd256780$67703680$@net>
 <CAPi4v45uB1xQUpg8n62eoa1O+HL59q2_znNScj=VFiL4=FXCwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70A0B577-37DA-4339-A60F-17171E5B5DE0@shiresoft.com>

The "Fry's guys" are completely worthless at least in all of the Fry's I've been too (which
are most of them in the "valley").

Never, ever select an "open" box.  You can tell because they put stickers on it.  It's an item
that someone else purchased and returned.  They're usually missing parts or just completely
non-functional (which is why it was returned).  It easier for them to re-wrap it and re-stock it
rather than returning it to the manufacturer.

The electronics components that Fry's carries had gone *way* down since I first went into
one.  If you need PC components, then they're probably OK but for the random capacitor
or resistor...they have a few but I've learned that its a wasted trip and should just go order
the parts on-line.

TTFN - Guy

> On Feb 6, 2015, at 12:55 PM, Todd Killingsworth <killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The local Fry's here in Atlanta GA was great when it opened, but has
> degraded over time.
> 
> Oddly enough, they don't keep enough electrical components in stock and run
> empty on various types.  At the same time, they've introduced all of these
> high-end oscilloscopes and analyzers.
> 
> Predatory sales people and the list checking before leaving are still
> standard Fry's procedure here.
> 
> Todd Killingsworth
> 
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 3:45 PM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
> 
>>> Where have you been the last few years?
>>> 
>>> http://www.frys.com/ac/storeinfo/storelocator
>>> 
>>> --Chuck
>>> 
>> 
>> What he said! To be hones though I have not been to a Fry's in years. Are
>> they still viable? They used to be good for odds and end computer parts
>> (i.e. you needed a HDD, memory, occasional good deal on CPU) but even that
>> has been replaced by Newegg. I had even forgotten the bit about checking
>> your receipt on the way out.
>> 
>> -Ali
>> 
>> 


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Feb  6 15:09:42 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 13:09:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fry's expansion?  was: RE: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB465AFBC6@mail.bensene.com>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
 <15b701d04247$54083680$fc18a380$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB465AFBC6@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502061309170.16937@deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Rick Bensene wrote:

> There is a Fry's in Wilsonville, Oregon -- They've already expanded out
> of "the valley".
>
They're in Renton, WA as well.  Now if they'd just keep the parts pegs 
filled...

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From ian at platinum.net  Fri Feb  6 15:15:42 2015
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 13:15:42 -0800
Subject: Microdata disk/tape images
In-Reply-To: <CAMxNxyi2ddFiM2JvD2TVRVEtiAjYMS+W=kmrseZHwGgd=uYmLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
 <CAMxNxyi2ddFiM2JvD2TVRVEtiAjYMS+W=kmrseZHwGgd=uYmLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <219263CA-3C3E-4387-BBB2-4C181373BB5F@platinum.net>


> On Feb 6, 2015, at 12:52 PM, Richard Swingwood <richardswingwood at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 5 February 2015 at 21:19, Ian McLaughlin <ian at platinum.net> wrote:
> 
>> Long shot, but does anyone know of any available disk/tape/paper tape/ROM
>> images for any of the Microdata machines (800/1600) or the relatives
>> (Intertechnique Multi-8/Multi-4, MAI Basic Four BB-II)?
>> 
>> There?s a bit of documentation available - Bitsavers has a bit, and I have
>> some MAI documentation that I?m in the process of scanning.  I?m toying
>> with the idea of emulating this machine, but I?m having difficulty locating
>> any software for it.
>> 
> 
> I'm in the same boat though my interest is in the M1600 implementation of
> Reality.  At one point I started a SIMH implementation of the 1600 CPU but
> didn't get very far before the idea of trying a FPGA/Verilog solution took
> over.  That has gotten a bit further but is not progressing very fast.
> 
> If you want to swap notes and ideas or even collaborate on an emulation
> then I'd be happy to help (& be helped :)
> 
> Richard.

Richard,

  I sent a private message off to Jim explaining what I have (nothing other than documentation) and what I would like to do (emulate any one of the Microdata-based machines, but preferably the MAI Basic Four 1200 unit that I used to own many years ago).

In order to do any of this, there?s at least two pieces we would need - a dump of the ROM from one of the machines, and a copy of some boot media for the same machine.  There doesn?t appear to be any copies of media publicly available.

If anything was to show up, I?d love to exchange notes and ideas with you.  I also dabble in FPGA, so the idea of an FPGA implementation is intriguing to me.

Ian


From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Fri Feb  6 15:16:24 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 13:16:24 -0800
Subject: Fry's expansion? was: RE: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <70A0B577-37DA-4339-A60F-17171E5B5DE0@shiresoft.com>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
 <54D52645.2030803@sydex.com> <049501d0424d$cd256780$67703680$@net>
 <CAPi4v45uB1xQUpg8n62eoa1O+HL59q2_znNScj=VFiL4=FXCwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <70A0B577-37DA-4339-A60F-17171E5B5DE0@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <22684F1C-80FE-4469-A2D2-5E07B5FAC7F5@fozztexx.com>


On Feb 6, 2015, at 1:08 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:

> Never, ever select an "open" box.  You can tell because they put stickers on it.  It's an item
> that someone else purchased and returned.  

I actually do that all the time, often with motherboards. Many times it?s the only way to get the model with the features I want. I?ve never had a problem. 

My favorite was one time they had two shopping carts full of RC helicopters that had all been returned. Someone at the store had taken the time to go through each one and identify the problem. Most weren?t that much cheaper than a new one, but one mini helicopter was $30 off, making it only $10. The box said the controller didn?t work. For 10 bucks I figured why not. Got it open and the black lead had been pulled off the battery terminal (because of a bad design with the pull out cord for charging the helicopter). Soldered it back on and the helicopter has worked great ever since, even after lots of crashes!

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Fri Feb  6 15:16:16 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 13:16:16 -0800
Subject: Pdp11/23+ EPROM upgrade
In-Reply-To: <54D4AB49.40001@update.uu.se>
References: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>
 <54D4936A.3080207@update.uu.se>
 <43D572A1-F7F4-4B3D-978B-F0582386C26F@gmail.com>
 <54D4AB49.40001@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <53B88600-C4F4-4AC9-9E0E-006816F1AEB0@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-06, at 3:53 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-02-06 12:41, Roe Peterson wrote:
>> 
>>> On Feb 6, 2015, at 4:11 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 2015-02-05 19:49, Roe Peterson wrote:
>>>> I want to update the EPROMs on my 11/23+, which currently has 2716s.  I'm going to need 64k chips, and I understand 2764s won't work on this board.
>>>> 
>>>> What are my replacement options?  I have a fairly capable programmer, it can probably handle anything with 64k capacity.
>>> 
>>> ??? I don't get it.
>>> 64K chips? The 11/23 currently uses the 2716, which is what? 2K (bytes)? I doubt there are any more address lines going to that chip in the first place, and second, the memory is mapped in the I/O space which have a total of 8K, and that should cover not only the boot rom, but also all CSRs of all devices you have in the machine. A 64K chip is going to be totally meaningless.
>>> 
>>> So why are you looking for a 64K chip? (27512 I would assume that would be...)
>> 
>> 2716 = 16k bits = 2kbytes X 8 bits
>> 2764 = 64k bits = 8kbytes X 8 bits
>> 
>> The latest rom images for the 11/23+ require 8kbyte chips.
> 
> Ah, so 2764, not 64K bytes... Oh well... :-)
> When did people start counting memory sizes in bits???

Oh, at least as early as the mid-70s, with the 2708 (1KByte).

Yes, I too wish they had used bytes for eprom sizes.


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Fri Feb  6 15:17:50 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 13:17:50 -0800
Subject: Did Dr. Marc Dean Design the IBM PC or was it Lewis Eggebrecht
In-Reply-To: <1085250855.591158.1423251661046.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1085250855.591158.1423251661046.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B3E0B9C-2B64-4611-8758-C2DB001AC1D7@shiresoft.com>

I knew Marc from the System/23 Datamaster project (which I also worked on).  I was still working
on some aspects of System/23 when the PC was born.  Dr. David Bradley (who wrote the original
BIOS) worked in the office across the hall from mine.  I knew that the PC project was going on
but didn't know all of the players at the very start so I can't recall where Marc fit in relation to
Lew.  However, Lew was a manger and Marc was an engineer, so I don't see the statements
as being incompatible.

BTW, Marc was the last person I worked for at IBM before I left.  At that point he was an IBM VP
and an IBM Fellow.

TTFN - Guy

> On Feb 6, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Christian Liendo <christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Ok.. So Engadget wrote this article claiming Dr. Mark Dean was chief engineer of the 12-person team that designed the original IBM PC in the early '80s
> 
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2015/02/06/mark-dean-pc-pioneer/
> 
> I had always thought it was Lewis Eggebrecht.
> 
> I know there were three teams and one of them won and it was Eggebrecht's team.
> 
> Did Dr. Marc Dean work on Eggebrecht's team or did he run one of the other ones?


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  6 15:20:20 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 13:20:20 -0800
Subject: Fry's expansion?  was: RE: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <1930CCCD-E139-4724-B9CC-345005EC70E5@fozztexx.com>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
 <15b701d04247$54083680$fc18a380$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <54D52645.2030803@sydex.com> <049501d0424d$cd256780$67703680$@net>
 <1930CCCD-E139-4724-B9CC-345005EC70E5@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <54D53014.4080004@sydex.com>

On 02/06/2015 12:55 PM, Chris Osborn wrote:
your receipt on the way out.
>
> I have two Fry?s within 20 minutes, and don?t go very often. Almost
> every time I go they are out of stock on whatever it is I?m looking
> for. They?ll have the next more expensive version and the next
> cheaper version, neither of which has the features I needed.

I haven't been inside of a Fry's for nearly 25 years (original Sunnyvale 
location).  Even then, I noticed that they weren't stocking the really 
geeky stuff.  But I still have a bunch of connectors in their original 
red-and-white label poly bags--left over from "buy more than you need" days.

I wonder how many could be found in today's Fry's.  (e.g. card edge 
connectors, IDC-D-sub ribbon connectors, etc.)

--Chuck



From g-wright at att.net  Fri Feb  6 15:21:25 2015
From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 13:21:25 -0800
Subject: RA-81 issues
In-Reply-To: <54D526EA.60108@update.uu.se>
References: <1423252466.33748.YahooMailNeo@web185303.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <54D526EA.60108@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <1423257685.1015.YahooMailNeo@web185306.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

well now I feel real dumb.  I was looking for the  drive locks
and could only find the head lock.  Now I know the cable on 

the right is *not* for belt tension.  Thanks all


Henk, Is your 11/60 running


- Jerry    



On Friday, February 6, 2015 12:41 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
 


On 2015-02-06 20:54, Jerry Wright wrote:

> Did not see this come through so here it s again.
>
> I have a rack full of  RA81's, all Pass Rom base self test.  If  I try to spin
>
> up one of the drives, It will start to spin up and then just stop.  There are
>
> no front panel lights that come on or codes on the terminal screen.  all 3
>
> drives do the same.
>
> These are not connected to a controller, and  the manual does not say this
> is need.
>
> The forth one has no drive and the motor seems to turn hard,  is there a brake
> on the motor ???
>
> - what I'm I missing here
> Thanks Jerry

Do you have the power start sequencing cables in place?
Also, are the belts engaged, and the transport locks disengaged?

    Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  6 15:23:31 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 13:23:31 -0800
Subject: seeking quality tape recorder
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061213470.1976@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061013280.1693@nyx.feedle.net>
 <c713b4$eomt02@fipsb01.cogeco.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061213470.1976@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <54D530D3.5000701@sydex.com>

On 02/06/2015 04:14 AM, Dave G. wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Charles E. Fox wrote:
> but they are a bit pricey.
>
> Oops.  I forgot to state that I'm looking for something to work with
> audio cassette tapes.

Any particular reason it has to be portable?  Component high-end 
cassette decks should be pretty easy to find in the used market and will 
deliver a very high quality result.

--Chuck



From derschjo at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 15:28:41 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 13:28:41 -0800
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3498@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3498@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLZSRS-EWVbcUiP=HoRRaT4wLYJY4sy2XgGuVjAWNXyKcA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 12:23 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> >
> > I picked up a "large" machine* (for certain definitions of large) that's
>
> It's not that large. Or at least mine isn't, Deskside, really.
>

The one I have is (approximately) 5'x2'x4' and weighs about 600lbs.  I
think the 500-series was about half as tall, from what I've been able to
find.  It's not as big as a full-size rack, but it's not deskside either.
(It does have wheels, fortunately :)).

I was amused to discover a connection to the PERQ when researching this
beast (the 'PERQ-DAP' which used a PERQ as the front end) which I'm
guessing you're already aware of :).


>
> > I don't know if this machine works, and I'd rather not invest in 220V
> > wiring quite yet unless it does.  And, let's face it, I'm spoiled and I
> > demand instant gratification and I'd like to know as soon as possible if
> > this machine is a basket case or not.
>
> FWIW, mine currently has PSU problems (which is why I was given it). The
> choppers are dead short all ways round. But it is a fairly conventional
> SMPSU
> in there, albeit a large one (750W? 1kW?). You may be able to reconfigure
> it
> for 115V mains, but watch out for the fans
>

Yeah, there are two supplies in mine, a big supply for the +5 and a smaller
one for other voltages, I believe.  The fans are all 240V units, so they'd
likely need to be changed out.  I'm fine at this point just getting a real,
up-to-code 240V outlet installed at some point in the not-too-distant
future to run this (and other future machines that are similarly
power-hungry.)



>
> > So:  since all this stuff is in the basement, I'm just about 15 feet
> > away from the dryer, which at first glance runs off an outlet that meets
> > my needs.  I even have a NEMA 10-30p plug here that I could wire up to
> > the existing power cable for the computer.  But looking into it I have
> > doubts that it's actually that simple; in particular since this house
> > was built well before 1996 and so the outlet is not grounded; there's a
> > neutral lug and two hot lugs (I assume two 120V A/C lines out of phase?)
> > and I'm guessing that might not sit well with the power supply in this
> > computer.
>
> This will not meet any kind of electrical code, but it should be OK for
> testing...
>
> The DAP doesb't care that the 230V is centre-tapped to ground (in fact
> that is
> expected in the States). The ground to the case is a safety ground only.
>
> So I would first check you get 230V (or so) between the 2 'hot' pins of
> the dryer
> socket. If so, then wire up a kludge cable that connects those to the
> power pins
> of the DAP and the ground pin to a good local ground (if necessary the
> ground
> pin of a normal 115V socket outlet). This would allow you to power up the
> machine.
>


Yep, did this last night and it worked; everything powered up nicely,
fortunately.


>
> > * An AMT DAP 610, if you must ask.  It's an array processor from the
> > late 80s, with 64x64 1-bit processors.  If the machine doesn't run I'm
>
> Is it as many as that? I thought mine was 32*32, but maybe you have a
> bigger
> machine. Mine says DAP610 on it.
>

>From the docs I have, the 510 is 32x32, and the 610 is 64x64.  My machine
has a midplane with 8 Array boards per side, and 4 large ceramic chips per
Array board (which I assume contain 64 processors each...)



>
> I only have user manuals, but I have thought about trying to figure out
> the hardware
> at some point. Maybe I will manage it.
>

I got manuals and tapes with mine; I scanned the docs and them off to Al
(and they appear to be on bitsavers now -- thanks Al!).  The tapes are
being worked on...

- Josh



>
> > pretty much SOL for spare parts, schematics, service manuals, or
> > anything beyond customer-level documentation (which I've recently
> > scanned, btw, if anyone's curious...)
>
> -tony
>

From christian_liendo at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 15:46:06 2015
From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 21:46:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Did Dr. Marc Dean Design the IBM PC or was it Lewis Eggebrecht
In-Reply-To: <4B3E0B9C-2B64-4611-8758-C2DB001AC1D7@shiresoft.com>
References: <4B3E0B9C-2B64-4611-8758-C2DB001AC1D7@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <161811600.627155.1423259166763.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> 
>I knew Marc from the System/23 Datamaster project (which I also worked on). 
>Dr. David Bradley (who wrote the original BIOS) worked in the office across the hall from mine. 

Wow cool. 


>However, Lew was a manger and Marc was an engineer, so I don't see the statements as being incompatible. 



There are sources that list him as the chief engineer 

http://books.google.com/books?id=Pq3POofPsBEC&lpg=PA62&pg=PA33#v=onepage&q&f=true 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/12/ibm_pc_30_anniversary/ 


http://www.thocp.net/biographies/estridge_don.html 


This is why I ask stuff on here because there has been many times where public info is wrong and it has been discussed here.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Feb  6 15:48:25 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 13:48:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: LED/Incandescent lights
In-Reply-To: <54D50F0C.1070509@sydex.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com> <54D4E889.4050201@cimmeri.com>
 <54D4FB46.6040201@pico-systems.com> <54D4FD0D.2070907@sydex.com>
 <20150206094905.J46457@shell.lmi.net> <54D50218.7030005@sydex.com>
 <54D50F0C.1070509@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150206134205.Y46457@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> I don't think much of Feit in any case. But you do find them in a lot of
> big-box stores.

Well, Costco didn't have any of the LED shop-lights.

But, they did have some [Feit, sorry] LED PAR-38's and BR-30?
BOTH claimed to be suitable for use in recessed ceiling cans!
'course somewhere in the fine fiche print of the instructions,
it probably mentions that the recessed can must be a certain
specially designed type with x KCFM of forced air cooling,
and inverted every 3 hours?

Both also claimed to be dimmable, (possibly with some very non-standard
form of dimmer circuitry?, or maybe dimmable by placing ND filters in
front of it?)
The PAR38s claimed to be weatherproof.  But, I seriously doubt that their
definition of "weather" is one applicable to Oregon.



From tiggerlasv at aim.com  Fri Feb  6 15:52:30 2015
From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (Tim Thompson)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 16:52:30 -0500
Subject: Fry's expansion? was: RE: Radio Shack
Message-ID: <8D2106E56CDBBBC-FE4-1ED69@webmail-m268.sysops.aol.com>



On Fri Feb  6 15:09:42 CST 2015, geneb     geneb at deltasoft.com wrote:
 
> They're in Renton, WA as well.  Now if they'd just keep the parts pegs  filled...


Yeah, that's been on ongoing issue for Fry's at all of their locations.

I've been to Fry's in San Diego, Las Vegas, both Phoenix locations,
Wilsonville, and of course the one closest to me in Renton.

Great place if you need PC components; they have a lot of odd/unusual items
that you might ordinarily only find on-line, or at PC swap-meets.

You'll find some killer deals there as well.   Several years ago,
they were clearing out some 18-gig SCSI Cheetahs.
I picked up 4 of them for $20 each.

However, as mentioned by Gene, they are frequently out-of-stock
on a lot of their electronic components. . . whether it is an obscure item
or commonly-used components. I can never rely on finding
the right value cap or resistor on their shelf.

Another quirk that they have is product placement and pricing.

You might find an audio adapter or cable by one manufacturer
in the components section at one price, and in the audio section
by a different manufacturer, at a significantly different price.

I've also noticed that (at least in Renton) that their selection of generic cables
has decreased, in favor of expensive brands like Monster or Belkin.

Nowadays, I don't even mess with Fry's for A/V or computer cables -- I go straight to MonoPrice.com





T











From ggs at shiresoft.com  Fri Feb  6 15:55:27 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 13:55:27 -0800
Subject: Did Dr. Marc Dean Design the IBM PC or was it Lewis Eggebrecht
In-Reply-To: <161811600.627155.1423259166763.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <4B3E0B9C-2B64-4611-8758-C2DB001AC1D7@shiresoft.com>
 <161811600.627155.1423259166763.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3B57BA09-3109-4366-999E-29B75F684188@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 6, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Christian Liendo <christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> From: Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> 
>> I knew Marc from the System/23 Datamaster project (which I also worked on). 
>> Dr. David Bradley (who wrote the original BIOS) worked in the office across the hall from mine. 
> 
> Wow cool. 
> 
> 
>> However, Lew was a manger and Marc was an engineer, so I don't see the statements as being incompatible. 
> 
> 
> 
> There are sources that list him as the chief engineer 
> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Pq3POofPsBEC&lpg=PA62&pg=PA33#v=onepage&q&f=true 
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/12/ibm_pc_30_anniversary/ 
> 
> 
> http://www.thocp.net/biographies/estridge_don.html 
> 
> 

Actually, the "leaky old warehouse" was IBM Building 203.  While I was there we had the following happen:
Flood in the parking lot (feet of water...which is impressive since this is in FL and "high" ground is considered 5' above sea level)
Fire in the cafeteria (emergency lights failed) and the whole building lost power and was full of smoke.  Given that there were few windows it was a cave trying to get out...the only reason that no one died was that the fire while smokey didn't expand very far.
Plane crash landed in the parking lot (the Boca Raton airport was across the road)
Train derailed and dumped 3-4 cars worth of gravel in to the parking lot

The last one occurred after someone jokingly said "We've had just about every imaginable disaster except a train crash".  I think it was two weeks later that the train derailed.  No one joked about disasters at 203 after that.

However, 203 was absolutely the worst building I ever worked at while I was at IBM.

> 
> This is why I ask stuff on here because there has been many times where public info is wrong and it has been discussed here. 

I think you're mixing Lew with Don Estridge.  Don's team (of which Lew and Marc were part) were the "winning" team.  The other teams were *not* in Boca as I recall.

I believe it was Marc who designed the main board.  Lew probably had more overall responsibilities.

TTFN - Guy

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  6 16:09:05 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 14:09:05 -0800
Subject: LED/Incandescent lights
In-Reply-To: <20150206134205.Y46457@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com> <54D4E889.4050201@cimmeri.com>
 <54D4FB46.6040201@pico-systems.com> <54D4FD0D.2070907@sydex.com>
 <20150206094905.J46457@shell.lmi.net> <54D50218.7030005@sydex.com>
 <54D50F0C.1070509@sydex.com> <20150206134205.Y46457@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <54D53B81.9090205@sydex.com>

On 02/06/2015 01:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> Well, Costco didn't have any of the LED shop-lights.

I note that Walmart and other big-box stores are selling the Lights of 
America version as well (~~$38).  But you're not behaving sensibly if 
you buy that brand, based on my own experience.

> But, they did have some [Feit, sorry] LED PAR-38's and BR-30?
> BOTH claimed to be suitable for use in recessed ceiling cans!
> 'course somewhere in the fine fiche print of the instructions,
> it probably mentions that the recessed can must be a certain
> specially designed type with x KCFM of forced air cooling,
> and inverted every 3 hours?

Well, there are ceiling cans and ceiling cans.  The type that I have 
carry an IC rating (insulation contact), which, in my case means that 
they're under more than a foot of blown-in fiberglass insulation.

Incandescents don't care about heat, but I suspect that LEDs do.

--Chuck



From christian_liendo at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 16:10:17 2015
From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 22:10:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Did Dr. Marc Dean Design the IBM PC or was it Lewis Eggebrecht
In-Reply-To: <3B57BA09-3109-4366-999E-29B75F684188@shiresoft.com>
References: <3B57BA09-3109-4366-999E-29B75F684188@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <2121644249.632642.1423260617295.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>


From: Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com>
To: Christian Liendo <christian_liendo at yahoo.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: Did Dr. Marc Dean Design the IBM PC or was it Lewis Eggebrecht



>From: Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com>> I think you're mixing Lew with Don Estridge.  Don's team (of which Lew and Marc were part) were the "winning" team.  The other teams were *not* in Boca as I recall.


>From PC News:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Pq3POofPsBEC&lpg=PA62&pg=PA33#v=onepage&q&f=true 
"Lew Eggebrecht was the Chief Architect for the IBM PC. He picked all the parts and put them together"


>From The Register

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/12/ibm_pc_30_anniversary/
"A 12-strong team was assembled under Don Estridge, the Development Director of the project, codenamed 'Chess'. Lewis Eggebrecht was brought on board as Chief Designer."

History of the Personal Computer

http://archive.org/stream/A_History_of_the_Personal_Computer/eBook09_djvu.txt

"Lewis Eggebrecht was a principal in the systems engineering design"



So. I mean. I believe you, just a lot of people point to him

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Fri Feb  6 16:15:17 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 14:15:17 -0800
Subject: IBM 5322 WAS : Did Dr. Marc Dean Design the IBM PC or was it Lewis
 Eggebrecht
In-Reply-To: <4B3E0B9C-2B64-4611-8758-C2DB001AC1D7@shiresoft.com>
References: <1085250855.591158.1423251661046.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <4B3E0B9C-2B64-4611-8758-C2DB001AC1D7@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <049e01d0425a$65246c00$2f6d4400$@net>

> I knew Marc from the System/23 Datamaster project (which I also worked
> on).  I was still working on some aspects of System/23 when the PC was
> born.  


Guy,

That is pretty cool. So now I know if you don't mind I am going to pick your
brain a bit: Were there two revisions of the 5322? 

I ask because I have two 5322s and while very similar they differ in at
least two areas: The older model seems to have a linear PSU and socketted
chips vs. the newer one with switching PSU and soldered in chips. Just
wondering. Thanks.

-Ali



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 16:15:20 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 14:15:20 -0800
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLZSRS-EWVbcUiP=HoRRaT4wLYJY4sy2XgGuVjAWNXyKcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3498@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CADBZjLZSRS-EWVbcUiP=HoRRaT4wLYJY4sy2XgGuVjAWNXyKcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+sy3dEMTgNPVvjZBqWKfSJtfBzVR_kWc+J69QCRt+w9A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The one I have is (approximately) 5'x2'x4' and weighs about 600lbs.  I
> think the 500-series was about half as tall, from what I've been able to
> find.  It's not as big as a full-size rack, but it's not deskside either.
> (It does have wheels, fortunately :)).
>

How many people did it take to get that into your basement?

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Fri Feb  6 16:17:44 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 14:17:44 -0800
Subject: IBM 5322 WAS : Did Dr. Marc Dean Design the IBM PC or was it
 Lewis Eggebrecht
In-Reply-To: <049e01d0425a$65246c00$2f6d4400$@net>
References: <1085250855.591158.1423251661046.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <4B3E0B9C-2B64-4611-8758-C2DB001AC1D7@shiresoft.com>
 <049e01d0425a$65246c00$2f6d4400$@net>
Message-ID: <C9A4B6EE-6967-4A3B-AA5C-F9340CB66A57@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 6, 2015, at 2:15 PM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
> 
>> I knew Marc from the System/23 Datamaster project (which I also worked
>> on).  I was still working on some aspects of System/23 when the PC was
>> born.  
> 
> 
> Guy,
> 
> That is pretty cool. So now I know if you don't mind I am going to pick your
> brain a bit: Were there two revisions of the 5322? 
> 
> I ask because I have two 5322s and while very similar they differ in at
> least two areas: The older model seems to have a linear PSU and socketted
> chips vs. the newer one with switching PSU and soldered in chips. Just
> wondering. Thanks.

Yea, there were lots of under the radar changes especially early on as things got
figured out.  The original, original PC had 16KB soldered down and then the next
48KB was in sockets.  I think once they figured out that most folks needed more
RAM, they just populated 64KB and did away with the sockets.

TTFN - GUy


From derschjo at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 16:19:24 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 14:19:24 -0800
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+sy3dEMTgNPVvjZBqWKfSJtfBzVR_kWc+J69QCRt+w9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D434D1.6020300@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3498@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CADBZjLZSRS-EWVbcUiP=HoRRaT4wLYJY4sy2XgGuVjAWNXyKcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOw+sy3dEMTgNPVvjZBqWKfSJtfBzVR_kWc+J69QCRt+w9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLbpvRDgvwuf6zCGfJhxyJEZp=nGiAA6hFwsnd+LpgXMYg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > The one I have is (approximately) 5'x2'x4' and weighs about 600lbs.  I
> > think the 500-series was about half as tall, from what I've been able to
> > find.  It's not as big as a full-size rack, but it's not deskside either.
> > (It does have wheels, fortunately :)).
> >
>
> How many people did it take to get that into your basement?
>

Only three!  Luckily heavy items can be wheeled on a hand-cart around to
the back of the house, where there's direct access to the basement; no
tricky stairs to deal with.  In this case, taking off all the extraneous
paneling on the front/rear/sides and top cut quite a bit of weight and made
it a lot easier to hold onto...

- Josh

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 16:20:22 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 17:20:22 -0500
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3486@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B31EA@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CAHYQbfA-pk3Gx7BB3GKn-kfk-teBGr_5q8wu0p3NEvXkOYj2JA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3486@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfBMbEyyS5eJ8nboFiY0df3jNcWSAOAiYu0dKHQcFaQTWw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 3:14 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I think you need to read some more general books on electronics too. I am
> not
> sure what to recomend here (and of course suggestions are welcome). I do
> like
> 'The Art of Electronics' by Horrowitz and Hill, it does start from a basic
> level, but
> it may be rather heavy going at the start. It's still a book to consider
> (and probably
> buy), since you won't grow out of it. But there may be other inttoductory
> books to
> look at.
>
> -tony
>


Hey, thanks for the advice and encouragement, Tony.  With my learning
style, I'm kind of enamored with online classes these days - my son's
taking Harvard CS50 (and totally "getting it," at age eleven, btw) and I'm
awaiting Georgetown's Dante/Purgtatorio, which doesn't start for a while.
Just did a quick little search on edx.org and found:

https://www.edx.org/course/circuits-electronics-mitx-6-002x-0
and
https://www.edx.org/course/electronic-interfaces-bridging-physical-uc-berkeleyx-ee40lx

Do you think either of those would be a good start?  One better than the
other?  Or should I really just be shopping books?

-j

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 16:28:17 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 22:28:17 -0000
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B34CC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net> <54D4003B.2010509@btinternet.com>,
 <20150206073353.GB19598@mooli.org.uk>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B34CC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <02b501d0425c$34848970$9d8d9c50$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony
duell
> Sent: 06 February 2015 20:46
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: RE: Radio Shack
> 
> >
> > > [Maplin's] on line store is still good for some hard to get
components.
> >
> > That's not really been my experience, except that they have relatively
> > poor turn-over of components to the point it's almost a source of NOS
> parts.
> 
> Maplin are often known as 'Craplin' by my friends....
> 
> 25 years ago they had a reasonable range of components, and had most in
> stock in the shops. They were very useful for 'emergency' supplies -- to
the
> extent that when I was in Bristol there was a common question in the lab
> 'Anyone going to Craplin today, if so can you get me a couple of 555
timers'
> or whatever.
> 
> Now they have a few components, but worse, a lot of the interesting lines
> are 'web only' and can't be ordered or supplied in shops. This means
ordering
> them is as big a hassle as doing an RS or Farnell order, where a much
better
> range is available.
> 

You can pick them up at the store using "click and collect"...

> > > We do have Farnell, CPC and RS components, They are mail order only
> > > but have huge number of different stock lines.
> >
> > RS have a few trade counters dotted around the country. The most
> > convenient one for Londoners is probably the one in the industrial
> > estate to the west of the former Olympic site. The River Lea makes
> > public transport and pedestrian access a bit of a chore though. (I
> > used to go over that way by bike.)
> 
> When I was in SW London, the local-ish RS trade counter was called
> 'Heathrow'. It gave its address as Hounslow and is actually in Feltham (go
> figure). But I had several orders delivered there for me to collect with
no
> problems at all.
> 
> Now I am in SE London, getting there would be a bit harder. I must try the
E
> London one.. Not sure how I would get there, but I will work it out.
> 
> I can remember when Edgware road was lined with electronics shops on
> both sides, new and surplus components. In the early 1980s you could get
> anything from valves to microprocessors there. And then of course there
> was Proops in Tottenham Court Road for interesting surplus stuff. All gone
:-(
> 
> -tony

Increasingly even Farnell and RS have limited local stocks of parts. Even
simple components from RS are often only available the following day. I much
prefer to collect from trade counter or the store as then I don't need to be
in when the mail man comes.  However I see that E-Bay offers a similar
service, where you can pick up items at a local "Argos" store.... (A
catalogue store)...

Dave
G4UGM


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Feb  6 16:35:33 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 14:35:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FRY's/Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150206135419.G46457@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Marc Verdiell wrote:
> picking up your capacitor. Let's not forget the best of it, being chased
> around by the totally incompetent sales person that will convince you that
> SATA and USB are one and the same thing. Trying to lose him by walking
> progressively faster. Man, they can walk fast too, these are trained
> professionals. And for the grand finale, being stripped searched going out
> the door. How is that for the ultimate nerd store experience!
> Love it all. The Fry brothers are geniuses.

But not their staff.

1) Somebody from the college bought a large quantity of memory chips
there.  When plugged into a dozen of the college's PC/5150s they
would not work.
BUT, they would work in some generic clones!
I drove an hour to the store, and told them that they would not work in
OEM IBM PCs.  They demanded a few hours to TEST them.  After returning
from Computer Literacy, I came back.  They insisted that they worked.
They had tried them (hardly a "TEST") in their generic clone.  I repeated
that they did not work in OEM IBM PCs.  The "technician" told me that he
wasn't familiar with a BRAND OF COMPUTER named "OEM".  They would not even
exchange them.
I wrote a letter to Mary Eisenhart (editor of MicroTimes), with a cc to
David Fry.  He came to the college with a bag of working replacements.
(successful resolution)

2) I needed a printer cable.   The clerk showed me the USB section.
"Thank you, but this is for an OLD PC"
"Oh, USB 2 will work on USB 1"
"No, really old.   IEEE-1284"
"Huh?"
"Micro-ribbon"
"Huh?"
"CENTRONICS"
"OH!  Those are printer cables?? I wondered what those were for.  We
don't carry them."
(They had some shelved with the SCSI cables)

3) Back when it was a grocery store with a couple of aisles of hobbyist
stuff, it was GREAT!!  It was still really good when the groceries were
cut back to only what all night hackers would want (some nukable food,
toothbrushes, snacks, a superb selection of caffeinated sodas (including
Jolt)).
But, when they removed the last of the non-snack foods (bread, peanut
butter, etc.) and opened multiple stores, they were headed towards Radio
Shack.
We used to stop there on the way home from the Foothill swap.
But, eventually, it reached the point where computers and electronics were
secondary to TV and audio crap, with EVERY speaker cranked up to 11.
It became extraordinarily unpleasant to set foot into the store(s).

4) Many items are missing parts! and/or are returned defects.  Their
"returns" policy included taking EVERYTHING that was returned, taping the
box back shut and putting it back on the shelf.  If the box is damaged, it
gets a token "open box" discount.  It is true that many things get
returned due to customer inability to figure it out, rather than actual
malfunction.  But, they were not even doing a token "TEST" before
returning the stuff to stock. If you ever return something to Fry's and
are sure that it is actually non-functional, PLEASE write "NFG" all over
the item and all over the box!

5) They were AMAZINGLY late getting a WWW presence.  Eventually, they
acquired somebody else that had a website.
In the mid and late 1990s, when I was still teaching an "Introduction To
The Internet" class, I used to give a minor assignment of finding the
least expected web presence (in those days, on the rear fender of UC
Berkeley police cars, etc.), and also what outfit was the most
surprisingly NOT on the web - that one usually went to Fry's.

6)  I needed a cheap DVD player.  They had two Apex models with a $20
price difference.  I asked the clerk about the difference(s).  He
proceeded to read aloud the identical feature lists of the two shelf tags.

7) There are a few fake "Fry's Employment Application" forms on the web.
One of the classics is:
http://homepage.smc.edu/engfer_mark/frys.htm




From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Feb  6 16:52:54 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 14:52:54 -0800
Subject: Microdata disk/tape images
In-Reply-To: <219263CA-3C3E-4387-BBB2-4C181373BB5F@platinum.net>
References: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
 <CAMxNxyi2ddFiM2JvD2TVRVEtiAjYMS+W=kmrseZHwGgd=uYmLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <219263CA-3C3E-4387-BBB2-4C181373BB5F@platinum.net>
Message-ID: <54D545C6.9080900@jwsss.com>


On 2/6/2015 1:15 PM, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
>> On Feb 6, 2015, at 12:52 PM, Richard Swingwood <richardswingwood at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 5 February 2015 at 21:19, Ian McLaughlin <ian at platinum.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Long shot, but does anyone know of any available disk/tape/paper tape/ROM
>>> images for any of the Microdata machines (800/1600) or the relatives
>>> (Intertechnique Multi-8/Multi-4, MAI Basic Four BB-II)?
>>>
>>> There?s a bit of documentation available - Bitsavers has a bit, and I have
>>> some MAI documentation that I?m in the process of scanning.  I?m toying
>>> with the idea of emulating this machine, but I?m having difficulty locating
>>> any software for it.
>>>
>> I'm in the same boat though my interest is in the M1600 implementation of
>> Reality.  At one point I started a SIMH implementation of the 1600 CPU but
>> didn't get very far before the idea of trying a FPGA/Verilog solution took
>> over.  That has gotten a bit further but is not progressing very fast.
>> If you want to swap notes and ideas or even collaborate on an emulation
>> then I'd be happy to help (& be helped :)
>>
>> Richard.
> Richard,
>
>    I sent a private message off to Jim explaining what I have (nothing other than documentation) and what I would like to do (emulate any one of the Microdata-based machines, but preferably the MAI Basic Four 1200 unit that I used to own many years ago).
>
> In order to do any of this, there?s at least two pieces we would need - a dump of the ROM from one of the machines, and a copy of some boot media for the same machine.  There doesn?t appear to be any copies of media publicly available.
The MAI Basic 4 system which was based on the Microdata 1600 to my 
knowledge was distributed via disk media.  I did not see any half inch 
tape with Basic 4 on any systems, which is the other alternative.

Basic 4 moved on to their own implementation which was somewhat binary 
compatible with the 1600 implementation, which I think incorporated some 
bit slice technology.  The next turn moved to microprocessor designs.  I 
had a copy of the firmware from a system at one point in my pile from a 
system I got the remains of.
> If anything was to show up, I?d love to exchange notes and ideas with you.  I also dabble in FPGA, so the idea of an FPGA implementation is intriguing to me.
>
> Ian
>
>
>
Richard, please also contact me offline.  I already got a reply from Ian 
privately, and we can discuss things.  I'd prefer that discussion method.

I have recently gotten a large stash of Multi 8, Intertechnique 
documentation, which I will be getting to Al, as well. Intertechnique 
made the first clone of the 1600 under license from Microdata.

If the media was available other than with the disks, I'd certainly like 
to know, but I visited Basic 4, and I believe they used disk backup at 
that time.
thanks
Jim

From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 17:13:22 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 17:13:22 -0600
Subject: Pdp11/23+ EPROM upgrade
In-Reply-To: <53B88600-C4F4-4AC9-9E0E-006816F1AEB0@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <29A99099-05F4-40C8-A5A8-5EF5C30FB50E@gmail.com>
 <54D4936A.3080207@update.uu.se>
 <43D572A1-F7F4-4B3D-978B-F0582386C26F@gmail.com>
 <54D4AB49.40001@update.uu.se>
 <53B88600-C4F4-4AC9-9E0E-006816F1AEB0@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <27A4B53F-657E-4F03-BCBF-AFA507682CF6@gmail.com>


> On Feb 6, 2015,  machine. A 64K chip is going to be totally meaningless.
>>>> 
>>>> So why are you looking for a 64K chip? (27512 I would assume that would be...)
>>> 
>>> 2716 = 16k bits = 2kbytes X 8 bits
>>> 2764 = 64k bits = 8kbytes X 8 bits
>>> 
>>> The latest rom images for the 11/23+ require 8kbyte chips.
>> 
>> Ah, so 2764, not 64K bytes... Oh well... :-)
>> When did people start counting memory sizes in bits???

ROMs are like bandwidth on the Internet, sold in bits (kbits, megabits) ,consumed in bytes.

> 
> Oh, at least as early as the mid-70s, with the 2708 (1KByte).
> 
> Yes, I too wish they had used bytes for eprom sizes.
> 

From pontus at update.uu.se  Fri Feb  6 17:14:00 2015
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 00:14:00 +0100
Subject: What is this Concurrent Computer Corporation machine?
Message-ID: <54D54AB8.1080102@update.uu.se>

Hi

My employer has over the years ported our main product to more platforms 
than I can count. I took inventory of our storage the other day and one 
machine has left me clueless: The Concurrent Computer Corporation machine:

http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/jobb_vind/DSC_0081.thumb.jpg
http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/jobb_vind/DSC_0082.thumb.jpg
http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/jobb_vind/DSC_0083.thumb.jpg

As you see it is one rack with a medium sized computer in it. From the 
internet and co-workers I've learned that it has either a MIPS or 68k 
processor and runs a unix version called RTU, for Real Time Unix. CCC 
was initially Interdata, later Perkin Elmer and then spun off into CCC.

Has any cctalk-reader experience with this system? Anything would be 
interesting to learn.

This machine might become available in one way or another later this 
year. And since I believe it was made in Brittain I've pondered asking 
TNMOC if they want it.

Finally, check the content of the directory above for some more Unix 
history.

Kind Regards,
Pontus.

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Fri Feb  6 17:34:10 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 17:34:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150206134218.1246D18C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150206134218.1246D18C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061731100.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:

>    > From: Brent Hilpert
>
>    >> Well, try removing W1 to isolate the output of the xtal oscillator E15
>    >> from inverter input pin E4.4.
>
> Sigh, the crystal output is dead as a doornail. Total flat-line. Guess I'm
> going to have to find a new one...

Does it have to be exactly 13MHz for the system to function correctly? I 
have some Fox brand 13.824MHz oscillators in my parts cabinets that were 
leftovers from something back in the mid 90s (probably modem R&D).

From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Fri Feb  6 18:01:01 2015
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 16:01:01 -0800
Subject: DrDobbs
In-Reply-To: <etPan.54d52ccc.54e49eb4.2b9@Peters-MacBook-Pro.local>
References: <54D50B56.1050707@microfilm.kscoxmail.com>
 <A2C337CB0E8D4AE5A4CF8EB6B99AC2CC@RANGER1>
 <etPan.54d52ccc.54e49eb4.2b9@Peters-MacBook-Pro.local>
Message-ID: <20150206160101.49d12418@asrock.bcwi.net>

On Fri, 6 Feb 2015 16:06:20 -0500
Peter Cetinski <pete at pski.net> wrote:

> Dr. Dobbs is out of business as of Dec 2014. ?I suggest talking to
> your CC company if they charged you for any merchandise.

I agree. Your CC company should refund your money if Dr. Dobbs charged
you but didn't ship product.

I ordered the DVD when I heard they were about to go out of business.
They did ship it - although it took them a couple of weeks to do so.

Lyle

> On February 6, 2015 at 3:59:40 PM, Keven Miller (rtt)
> (kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com) wrote:
> 
> Due to a posting in December, I ordered 2 DVDs from DrDobbs store.  
> But have not yet received them.  
> I get no email responses or phone callbacks.  
> 
> ddjstore at halldata.com  
> 888-847-6188 appears disconnnected  
> 415-947-6163 I can leave voice mail (listed on printed checkout
> receipt)  
> 
> Any one know of better contacts for UBM Tech to follow through on
> this? Thanks,  
> Keven Miller  
> 
> 
> 



-- 
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  6 18:42:24 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 16:42:24 -0800
Subject: FRY's/Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <20150206135419.G46457@shell.lmi.net>
References: <02ad01d04242$6e23f770$4a6be650$@gmail.com>
 <20150206135419.G46457@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <54D55F70.704@sydex.com>

On 02/06/2015 02:35 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> 3) Back when it was a grocery store with a couple of aisles of hobbyist
> stuff, it was GREAT!!  It was still really good when the groceries were
> cut back to only what all night hackers would want (some nukable food,
> toothbrushes, snacks, a superb selection of caffeinated sodas (including
> Jolt)).

It was never exclusively a grocery store--it existed with and was 
preceded by the Fry's grocery chain.  John Fry took some of the family 
loot and had an idea to market to the geek community.  He told me that 
he looked at the margin in PC sales (could be close to 60% in a regular 
"computer store") and reasoned that what allowed a grocery store to 
exist on a 2% margin might be brought to bear in an electronics store, 
without the issues of rotten produce and past sell-by meat.

It is true that he initially had a small section in the store to sell 
some geek-specific items--Canfield's Diet Fudge soda being one of the 
more notable.  He sold it, like later Jolt Cola, by the caselot.

John even sold shareware discs--placed the wire racks right up at the 
counter.

His help was basically what amounted to grocery-store type clerks.  If 
you came to check-out with a VME backplane, they just read off the item 
number and entered it into the register.  It might as well have been a 
bunch of grapes.

I saw my first modern videophone demoed at Fry's.  I think it was the 
Mitsubishi LU-500, but am not certain after all these years.  Fry's sold 
a lot of surplus Everex PC expansion boards also.  I bought my first box 
of 3.5" DSHD floppies at Fry's--they were Fujis and the box cost about 
$40 for 10 disks.  Cheaper than 8".

Now clearly, you need a certain number and density of customers in the 
area served by your store--and the Santa Clara valley was one such location.

--Chuck





From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Feb  6 20:17:16 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 20:17:16 -0600
Subject: Incandescent lights
In-Reply-To: <54D4FB46.6040201@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com> <54D4E889.4050201@cimmeri.com>
 <54D4FB46.6040201@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54D575AC.9020008@pico-systems.com>

On 02/06/2015 11:35 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/06/2015 10:15 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Very interesting -- how did you build a retrofit for a 
>> 48" T12?
>>
>> - J.
>>
> OK, here's a bad picture of my first retrofit, 10 Cree 1W 
> lamps and a home-made power
> supply.

Oops, sorry, here's the link :

http://pico-systems.com/images/LEDlight3.JPG

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Feb  6 20:33:21 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 20:33:21 -0600
Subject: Incandescent lights
In-Reply-To: <54D4FD0D.2070907@sydex.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com> <54D4E889.4050201@cimmeri.com>
 <54D4FB46.6040201@pico-systems.com> <54D4FD0D.2070907@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54D57971.9000305@pico-systems.com>

On 02/06/2015 11:42 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/06/2015 09:35 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> These things are NOT cheap, but I'm expecting to get 
>> better life than most
>> of the commercial units, which I think have crummy 
>> thermal design. I think
>> they work out well.
>
> Commercial drop-in replacements have been available for 
> some time.  E.g.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/LEDwholesalers-Brightest-Fluorescent-Replacement-Approved/dp/B008XHVAA6 
>
>
> Not a bad price (comparatively)  either.
These also scare me, because they look just like fluorescent 
tubes, but will almost
certainly get fried if put into a fixture with a rapid-start 
ballast.  These drop in to
the FIXTURE and socket, but the ballast needs to be removed 
and rewired.
Also, if somebody ever put a standard fluorescent into one 
of these modified
fixtures, it might be messy.

Jon

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Feb  6 21:03:06 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri,  6 Feb 2015 22:03:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
Message-ID: <20150207030306.EE6E718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Tothwolf

    >> Sigh, the crystal output is dead as a doornail. Total flat-line. Guess
    >> I'm going to have to find a new one...

    > Does it have to be exactly 13MHz for the system to function correctly?
    > I have some Fox brand 13.824MHz oscillators

Actually, they are exactly 13.824MHz on the 11/23, too. Must be a standard
speed...

    > in my parts cabinets that were leftovers from something back in the mid
    > 90s (probably modem R&D).

Oh, this may be totally fantastic. I spent a chunk of time today looking for
a replacement, and so far, no luck. So you may really be a life-saver.

A generic search for 13.824MHz crystals turned up a whole bunch of SMD parts,
and a few of what I think are actual crystals (two leads), but none of those
self-contained DIP oscillator units.

I have a couple of 11/23 cards, and although the DIP oscillators on them are
from a number of different manufacturers, they all have the same number on
them: "18-12131-00", which must be some standard part number. So I tried
looking for that, and all I found were a couple of those part-finder
services. So, just for grins, I asked three of them for quotes. Only one
replied, and they couldn't find them.

So if you've got some of the DIP oscillator units, that'd be a life-saver.
I'll contact you off-list to work out the logistics? Thanks!

	Noel

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Fri Feb  6 21:20:44 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 21:20:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Incandescent lights
In-Reply-To: <54D57971.9000305@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com> <54D4E889.4050201@cimmeri.com>
 <54D4FB46.6040201@pico-systems.com> <54D4FD0D.2070907@sydex.com>
 <54D57971.9000305@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502062109290.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/06/2015 11:42 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> On 02/06/2015 09:35 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
>> 
>>> These things are NOT cheap, but I'm expecting to get better life than most
>>> of the commercial units, which I think have crummy thermal design. I think
>>> they work out well.
>> 
>> Commercial drop-in replacements have been available for some time.  E.g.
>> 
>> http://www.amazon.com/LEDwholesalers-Brightest-Fluorescent-Replacement-Approved/dp/B008XHVAA6 
>> 
>> Not a bad price (comparatively)  either.
>
> These also scare me, because they look just like fluorescent tubes, but 
> will almost certainly get fried if put into a fixture with a rapid-start 
> ballast.  These drop in to the FIXTURE and socket, but the ballast needs 
> to be removed and rewired. Also, if somebody ever put a standard 
> fluorescent into one of these modified fixtures, it might be messy.

These are single-ended-power type retrofit tubes, so a rapid start ballast 
really shouldn't harm them (the two pins on one end are not connected to 
the circuit). The older double-ended-power type retrofit tubes are the 
ones to be afraid of...they are a shock hazard (well documented) if both 
ends of the tube aren't fully seated. The double-ended-power types are 
also now banned in many countries.

Are you sure those tubes on Amazon require the ballast to be removed? Many 
of these retrofit tubes do not, although some require the starter circuit 
to be bypassed. [In the US, with 4ft T12 and T8 fixtures, the starter 
circuit is built into the ballast, but that convention isn't universal, 
and in many countries fluorescent fixtures use a separate starter module 
in a socket.]

From dave at 661.org  Fri Feb  6 22:29:31 2015
From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 20:29:31 -0800
Subject: seeking quality tape recorder
In-Reply-To: <54D530D3.5000701@sydex.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061013280.1693@nyx.feedle.net>
 <c713b4$eomt02@fipsb01.cogeco.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061213470.1976@nyx.feedle.net>
 <54D530D3.5000701@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <0EA774D4-3A14-4E36-8B4D-453CE486BB5D@661.org>

On February 6, 2015 1:23:31 PM PST, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> On 02/06/2015 04:14 AM, Dave G. wrote:
> > On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Charles E. Fox wrote:
> > but they are a bit pricey.
> >
> > Oops.  I forgot to state that I'm looking for something to work with
> > audio cassette tapes.
> 
> Any particular reason it has to be portable?  Component high-end 
> cassette decks should be pretty easy to find in the used market and
> will 
> deliver a very high quality result.
> 
> --Chuck

I plan to use it in libraries from time to time digitizing stuff I can't take home.  Eh.  I figure I'll just get a decent used Walkman and make sure the innards are good.
-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Fri Feb  6 23:23:18 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 23:23:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150207030306.EE6E718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150207030306.EE6E718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502062310570.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:

>    > From: Tothwolf
>
>    >> Sigh, the crystal output is dead as a doornail. Total flat-line. Guess
>    >> I'm going to have to find a new one...
>
>    > Does it have to be exactly 13MHz for the system to function correctly?
>    > I have some Fox brand 13.824MHz oscillators
>
> Actually, they are exactly 13.824MHz on the 11/23, too. Must be a 
> standard speed...
>
>    > in my parts cabinets that were leftovers from something back in the mid
>    > 90s (probably modem R&D).
>
> Oh, this may be totally fantastic. I spent a chunk of time today looking 
> for a replacement, and so far, no luck. So you may really be a 
> life-saver.
>
> A generic search for 13.824MHz crystals turned up a whole bunch of SMD 
> parts, and a few of what I think are actual crystals (two leads), but 
> none of those self-contained DIP oscillator units.
>
> I have a couple of 11/23 cards, and although the DIP oscillators on them 
> are from a number of different manufacturers, they all have the same 
> number on them: "18-12131-00", which must be some standard part number. 
> So I tried looking for that, and all I found were a couple of those 
> part-finder services. So, just for grins, I asked three of them for 
> quotes. Only one replied, and they couldn't find them.
>
> So if you've got some of the DIP oscillator units, that'd be a 
> life-saver. I'll contact you off-list to work out the logistics? Thanks!

Before I forget again, did you check for +5V on pin 1 (enable) when you 
were testing your existing oscillator?

I've posted a photo of the oscillators I have here (url munged so this 
email won't be dropped by classiccmp's spam filter):

http://strudel.ignorelist [dot] com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/Fox_F5C-2_13.824MHz.jpg

The tops are a little scratched since they were in a plastic parts cabinet 
drawer when I got them, and I've never gotten around to tracking down 
tubes to store them in. For that fact, anyone know of a source for 
oscillator tubes for free/cheap? (They are slightly larger then standard 
DIP tubes.) I have 100s of random oscillators I'd love to store in tubes 
instead of small plastic bags/drawers.

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Feb  6 23:25:57 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 23:25:57 -0600
Subject: Incandescent lights
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502062109290.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com> <54D4E889.4050201@cimmeri.com>
 <54D4FB46.6040201@pico-systems.com> <54D4FD0D.2070907@sydex.com>
 <54D57971.9000305@pico-systems.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502062109290.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <54D5A1E5.6040309@pico-systems.com>

On 02/06/2015 09:20 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
>
> These are single-ended-power type retrofit tubes, so a 
> rapid start ballast really shouldn't harm them (the two 
> pins on one end are not connected to the circuit). The 
> older double-ended-power type retrofit tubes are the ones 
> to be afraid of...they are a shock hazard (well 
> documented) if both ends of the tube aren't fully seated. 
> The double-ended-power types are also now banned in many 
> countries.
>
OK, good to know that they fixed THAT bit of insanity!
> Are you sure those tubes on Amazon require the ballast to 
> be removed? Many of these retrofit tubes do not, although 
> some require the starter circuit to be bypassed. [In the 
> US, with 4ft T12 and T8 fixtures, the starter circuit is 
> built into the ballast, but that convention isn't 
> universal, and in many countries fluorescent fixtures use 
> a separate starter module in a socket.]
>
I haven't seen anything except desk lamps that used a 
separate starter (or manual
button) in the last 30 years or so.
Our house was built in 1975 and the 4' fluorescent fixtures were
all rapid-start ballasts, meaning the starter is part of the 
ballast.

Anyway, I'd sure WANT to remove the old ballasts, as they 
were massively
inefficient.  I measured one of the ones before I did the 
retrofit. Two 48"
tubes, total power draw 103 W.  Assuming the two tubes drew 
32 W each,
the ballast was drawing another 39 W or so!  I had to remove 
the ballast
with pliers, it was too hot to touch after a couple hours run.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  6 23:53:19 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 21:53:19 -0800
Subject: Incandescent lights
In-Reply-To: <54D57971.9000305@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com> <54D4E889.4050201@cimmeri.com>
 <54D4FB46.6040201@pico-systems.com> <54D4FD0D.2070907@sydex.com>
 <54D57971.9000305@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54D5A84F.6010509@sydex.com>

On 02/06/2015 06:33 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

> These also scare me, because they look just like fluorescent tubes,
> but will almost certainly get fried if put into a fixture with a
> rapid-start ballast. These drop in to the FIXTURE and socket, but the
> ballast needs to be removed and rewired. Also, if somebody ever put a
> standard fluorescent into one of these modified fixtures, it might be
> messy.


One of the user comments really bothered me--it seems that the 120VAC 
goes to the two heater pins on one side of the "tube", not one on each 
side.  Poof.

Why on earth did they do it that way?  Better to have wire leads and 
wire the thing in permanently.

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  6 23:56:30 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 21:56:30 -0800
Subject: Incandescent lights
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502062109290.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D42137.1070709@pico-systems.com> <54D4E889.4050201@cimmeri.com>
 <54D4FB46.6040201@pico-systems.com> <54D4FD0D.2070907@sydex.com>
 <54D57971.9000305@pico-systems.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502062109290.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <54D5A90E.2030302@sydex.com>

On 02/06/2015 07:20 PM, Tothwolf wrote:

> Are you sure those tubes on Amazon require the ballast to be removed?
> Many of these retrofit tubes do not, although some require the starter
> circuit to be bypassed. [In the US, with 4ft T12 and T8 fixtures, the
> starter circuit is built into the ballast, but that convention isn't
> universal, and in many countries fluorescent fixtures use a separate
> starter module in a socket.]

A lot of T8 solid-state ballasts don't use the heater at all--they tie 
the two pins on each end together.

--Chuck



From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 00:21:43 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 22:21:43 -0800
Subject: Sharp PC-1600 keyboard issues
Message-ID: <54D5AEF7.6010505@gmail.com>

Another day, another project (the DAP will wait until I have the wiring 
to support it...).  This week a bunch of "Refurbished" Sharp PC-1600s 
showed up on eBay for cheap and I snagged one; it arrived this evening.  
It looks like the unit is effectively new-old-stock; it doesn't seem to 
have been used since Sharp refurbished it back in the day -- it arrived 
with the original Sharp-branded batteries in the compartment.  
Amazingly, only one of the four batteries leaked, but only a tiny bit 
and there's no obvious corrosion anywhere from it (whew).

The PC-1600 powers on and mostly behaves normally after an "All Reset" 
but the keyboard is having trouble; here are the symptoms:

- Keys A-K on the 2nd row of the QWERTY section do not function ('L' does).
- The "Shift" key doesn't work properly -- hitting it doesn't cause the 
"Shift" annunciator on the LCD to light up.  However, it does seem to do 
*something* in that if you hit Shift+another (working) key, nothing 
happens at all (for example, Shift+5 should result in a left curly brace 
but does nothing at all.).
- The "SML" key does not put the machine in lowercase mode, instead one 
of the Kanji (i believe) annunciators gets toggled. This has no other 
obvious effect (uppercase letters are still produced from the working 
letter keys...)
- Hitting the "KB II/Click" key (farthest right under the LCD) turns 
"Key Click" mode on even though Shift is not being depressed.  (Or maybe 
this is normal behavior -- I can't find this key described in the manual...)

Otherwise, the thing seems to be working OK, it'll calculate fine and I 
can enter/run small programs (that don't use the home row for entry...)

I've found the Technical Drawing set here: 
http://www.sharp-pc-1600.de/Schaltpl%8ane%20A3/Technical_Drawing_DINA3.pdf 
which makes it obvious that the dead home-row keys are related to the 
KIN3 line from the keyboard matrix; I note that the keyboard signals are 
brought to the edge of the PCB and connected to a membrane layer which 
contains additional circuitry, including what looks to be an IC that 
does the keyboard decoding.  My first guess would be dirty contact 
between the PCB and this membrane (esp. since the lines in question are 
close to a hole in the battery compartment where the aforementioned 
30-year-old batteries were...) but I'm a bit nervous to disassemble and 
clean this without knowing how it's held together.  Anyone have any 
experience here? Any tips?

Thanks as always,
Josh


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb  7 00:22:09 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 06:22:09 +0000
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfBMbEyyS5eJ8nboFiY0df3jNcWSAOAiYu0dKHQcFaQTWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B31EA@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CAHYQbfA-pk3Gx7BB3GKn-kfk-teBGr_5q8wu0p3NEvXkOYj2JA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3486@EXMBX16.thus.corp>,
 <CAHYQbfBMbEyyS5eJ8nboFiY0df3jNcWSAOAiYu0dKHQcFaQTWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3623@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> Hey, thanks for the advice and encouragement, Tony.  With my learning
> style, I'm kind of enamored with online classes these days - my son's
> taking Harvard CS50 (and totally "getting it," at age eleven, btw) and I'm
> awaiting Georgetown's Dante/Purgtatorio, which doesn't start for a while.
> Just did a quick little search on edx.org and found:
> 
> https://www.edx.org/course/circuits-electronics-mitx-6-002x-0
> and
> https://www.edx.org/course/electronic-interfaces-bridging-physical-uc-berkeleyx-ee40lx
> 
> Do you think either of those would be a good start?  One better than the
> other?  Or should I really just be shopping books?

I have never done an on-line course, and have generally learnt more from 
books than lectures, but that is probably just a personal thing -- how I 
am. 

Of tbe 2 courses you mention, the first sound a lot more relevant for repairing
classic computers, but it may not go far enough. It can't hurt to take it, though.

I would look at books _as well_. The more sources of information the better ;-)

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb  7 00:29:20 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 06:29:20 +0000
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <02b501d0425c$34848970$9d8d9c50$@gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net>
 <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net> <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net>
 <54D4003B.2010509@btinternet.com>, <20150206073353.GB19598@mooli.org.uk>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B34CC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>,
 <02b501d0425c$34848970$9d8d9c50$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3638@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

[Maplin]

> > Now they have a few components, but worse, a lot of the interesting lines
> > are 'web only' and can't be ordered or supplied in shops. This means
> > ordering
> > them is as big a hassle as doing an RS or Farnell order, where a much
> > better
> > range is available.
>
> 
> You can pick them up at the store using "click and collect"...

Can you? I am sure I've found items for which you can't 'click and collect'
and none of the shops I tried in London could order them for me to collect
in that shop.

Looks like they may have fixed that though.

[RS Trade Counter]

> Increasingly even Farnell and RS have limited local stocks of parts. Even
> simple components from RS are often only available the following day. I much
> prefer to collect from trade counter or the store as then I don't need to be

Ditto. I hate waiting around for parcels that may not come...

Have the RS stuff at the trade counter next day is effectively next day
delivery without paying for it and without the hassle of waiting for the
parcel. I would prefer to just pop into a shop for my components, but....

> in when the mail man comes.  However I see that E-Bay offers a similar
> service, where you can pick up items at a local "Argos" store.... (A
> catalogue store)...

Not for everything surely? I wasn't given that option when buying some
old telephones (another of my interests) from the States.

-tony

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Sat Feb  7 00:58:32 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 00:58:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: It's time to restore the 11/45 - progress!
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3486@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <CAHYQbfD=JYKxTv_maRFSj0RZEmsti2q1gMziorkAjdDWGKMjbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B31EA@EXMBX16.thus.corp>,
 <CAHYQbfA-pk3Gx7BB3GKn-kfk-teBGr_5q8wu0p3NEvXkOYj2JA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3486@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502070049300.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, tony duell wrote:

>> OK, please forgive my ignorance, here.  To give you some idea of my 
>> electronics expertise level, I'd like you to know that I just googled 
>> crowbar :D
>
> I do not want this to be taken the wrong way. I am not trying to insult 
> you, nor do I want to put you off restoring the 11/45 (which is a very 
> nice machine).
>
> FWIW, the 11/45 was the first PDP11 I ever restored and the first I ever 
> used. All I had was the printset (schematics and fortunately microcode 
> flowcharts). No technical or maintenance manual. No instruction set 
> listing. No web pages to look at. No bitsavers. No list like this one. I 
> managed it, and you can too.
>
> But the 11/45 is complicated, both in terms of the number of components 
> and way it was designed. There are quite a few non-obvious (at least to 
> me) bits of logic circuitry in there.
>
> I think you need to read some more general books on electronics too. I 
> am not sure what to recomend here (and of course suggestions are 
> welcome). I do like 'The Art of Electronics' by Horrowitz and Hill, it 
> does start from a basic level, but it may be rather heavy going at the 
> start. It's still a book to consider (and probably buy), since you won't 
> grow out of it. But there may be other inttoductory books to look at.

The two introductory books I tend to recommend are 'Getting Started in 
Electronics' and 'The Forrest Mims Engineer's Notebook', both by Forrest 
M. Mims III.

http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Started-Electronics-Forrest-Mims/dp/0945053282
http://www.amazon.com/Forrest-Mims-Engineers-Notebook/dp/1878707035

Back in the day, earlier versions of these books were sold in Radio Shack 
stores. 'Getting Started in Electronics' was a bright green book. The 
first 'Engineers Notebook' was blue, followed by a yellow 'Engineers 
Notebook II'. The two Engineers Notebook books were discontinued much 
earlier than 'Getting Started in Electronics', which I remember seeing in 
their stores even into the late 1990s.

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 01:12:59 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 02:12:59 -0500
Subject: seeking quality tape recorder
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061013280.1693@nyx.feedle.net>
 <c713b4$eomt02@fipsb01.cogeco.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061213470.1976@nyx.feedle.net>
 <54D530D3.5000701@sydex.com> <0EA774D4-3A14-4E36-8B4D-453CE486BB5D@661.org>
Message-ID: <28B16DD69BB94FA3A785FC97A97582F7@310e2>

Not all recorders work equally well, especially 
with Commodore computers which use custom 
recorders and a sort-of-digital semi-square wave 
instead of 'normal' audio sine waves.

A better quality recorder does not necessarily 
translate into a better chance of successful 
recordings.

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Griffith" <dave at 661.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2015 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: seeking quality tape recorder


> On February 6, 2015 1:23:31 PM PST, Chuck Guzis 
> <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> On 02/06/2015 04:14 AM, Dave G. wrote:
>> > On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Charles E. Fox wrote:
>> > but they are a bit pricey.
>> >
>> > Oops.  I forgot to state that I'm looking for 
>> > something to work with
>> > audio cassette tapes.
>>
>> Any particular reason it has to be portable? 
>> Component high-end
>> cassette decks should be pretty easy to find in 
>> the used market and
>> will
>> deliver a very high quality result.
>>
>> --Chuck
>
> I plan to use it in libraries from time to time 
> digitizing stuff I can't take home.  Eh.  I 
> figure I'll just get a decent used Walkman and 
> make sure the innards are good.
> -- 
> David Griffith
> dave at 661.org 


From mattislind at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 04:58:13 2015
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 11:58:13 +0100
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061731100.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <20150206134218.1246D18C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061731100.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <CABr82SKLSdcuE1hBoX0onrtCB0gY9SAfD=X1yjvv8aPh453yVw@mail.gmail.com>

2015-02-07 0:34 GMT+01:00 Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net>:

>
> Does it have to be exactly 13MHz for the system to function correctly? I
> have some Fox brand 13.824MHz oscillators in my parts cabinets that were
> leftovers from something back in the mid 90s (probably modem R&D).
>

Once upon a time (> 20 years ago) I  tried different clock oscillators on
my M8186 / KDF11-A board. I was able to run RT-11 when using up to 18 MHz
oscillators. As far as I remember it wouldn't boot over 18 MHz. I guess
that it ran a bit hotter though.

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Feb  7 07:37:58 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  7 Feb 2015 08:37:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Stupid AC wiring question (220-ish Volts...)
Message-ID: <20150207133758.1C52518C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Josh Dersch

    > Luckily heavy items can be wheeled on a hand-cart around to the back of
    > the house, where there's direct access to the basement; no tricky
    > stairs to deal with. 

O lucky man! My basement is only stairs-accessible (although one of them is
an outside stairs, which is a big help), which led to an extremely annoying
incident recently. (This has nothing to do with wiring, but your comment
poked a hot-button...)

I already had one 11/84, which was donated to me by a fellow aficionado of
PDP-11's out in Wisconsin. When I got it here, I was trying to work out how
to get it all (CPU cabinet, TU80 cabinet, RA81 cabinet [no drives], and 2
RA81's [separate]) into the basement (the only feasible place to put it
in our establishment).

I wound up building a ramp out of 2x10's on the outside stairs, and using a
block+tackle to lower the units down that into the basement. Worked pretty
well, actually - got the whole works down by myself in a couple of hours.

So I got another 11/84 system (yeah, yeah, I know) which was in Fornicalia,
and had to have it shipped. I originally tried to ship it freight (hey, the
units are on wheels, and I didn't care if it got dinged a bit through not
being packaged), but when they found out it wasn't palletized, I had to go
'white glove' (at twice the cost). But the good part was 'at least' with WG
you get 'inside delivery'. So I'm figuring, good, they'll help me get it into
the basement.

Nothing doing. I showed them the units in the basement (so they'd know I had
experience doing it), they looked at the ramp, and they called their company
and then flat-out refused to have anything to do with the process. They
claimed they thought it was 'dangerous'.

I suspect their real motivation was i) it was raining lightly (which is
another irritating thing, they were orignally scheduled to deliver on a day
when it was supposed to be good weather, and they begged to move the delivery
up, and I told them about the weather, but they were insistent, so I agreed -
big mistake, I should have dug in my heels), and ii) they were in a hurry
(see previous about wanting to deliver a day early) and wanted to hit the
road ASAP.

So anyway, we stuck it all in the garage to wait for a day it wasn't raining
(hey, if I had to do it all myself, why do it in the rain?), and then my wife
and I (she's 4' 10", and all of like 90 lbs) got it into the basement in a
couple of hours, no problem. But two big, burly moving guys (I'm 6'0", 200
lbs, and they were a lot bigger than me) thought it was too much for them.

To add final insult to injury, the moving company refused to offer any
partial refund for not providing the 'inside delivery' they had been paid (a
lot!) for! In addition to all the above, it took them 6 weeks to get the
stuff here from California. Now, admittedly, Christmas and New Year's were in
there, but...

Anyway, I would highly recommend having nothing to do with this company; it
was an outfit called UKAY. I've dealt with a number of crappy shippers, but
these guys were The Shipping Company From Hell. Tell everyone you know about
them.

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Feb  7 10:47:46 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  7 Feb 2015 11:47:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
Message-ID: <20150207164746.7062218C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Tothwolf

    > Before I forget again, did you check for +5V on pin 1 (enable) when you
    > were testing your existing oscillator?

Wow. Never thought to try that. Then again, I don't look for +5V on your
average 74xxx when I'm debugging, either! :-) I mean, it's a trace, the
solder on the pin looks good, that's as far as I go, usually! And there's
nothing shown as connected to that pin on the circuit diagram.

So I looked, and... it's at ground (or floating). The only pin that has
anything is 14, at +5V (expected). But I looked online for some datasheets
for similar oscillators, and some of them say 'pin 1 - N/C'. Are yours
tri-state? (That's the enable pin on the tri-state ones.)

I suppose even if yours are tri-state, I can still use them; a quick ohmmeter
check shows that pin 1 isn't connected to either power or ground, so I can
probably tie it high (via a resistor, which in addition to being normal
practise, will prevent a major disaster in case I'm confused - a state I'm
often in :-).

	Noel

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 12:46:04 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 13:46:04 -0500
Subject: 11/45 hack?
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
  Man. I'm becoming concerned that I can't fit any of the significant
features that I want in my 11/45 without making uncomfortable sacrifices.

  The first 25 slots are for an initial "unibus a" terminator, cpu,
floating point and memory, which, since I only have one bipolar matrix, is
an enormous waste of like ten slots (they're wired for weird voltage and
would presumably explode other boards installed there, right?).

  So then there are three slots available at the end, 26, 27, 28 that are
also marked "non-standard voltage."  I guess that means that putting normal
boards in there is right out, too.  Anyway, the unibus out and bridge 9200
jumper that connects unibus a and unibus b are supposed to go there.
That's it for the main backplane.

  The next three small backplanes are core.  They take up the rest of the
chassis.  I don't want to give up my core because core is cool, right?

  So this means I've nowhere to put the hex boards I need to run.

  I need to install more memory (planning to use MS11 (124KW M7891)),
ethernet, some sort of hex height SMD disk controller (SC21,etc.), possibly
an RL11, and a DZ11.  That's at least four, maybe six hex-height boards I
need to accommodate.

  I'm going to duck after asking this, but would it be at all feasible to
rewire the main 11/45 backplane to get rid of the weird voltages in those
bipolar slots so they'd accommodate normal boards like these?

  Short of that, what can I do?  I definitely don't want another chassis.
I guess I have to sacrifice my core to make way for a second "normal"
dd11-type backplane to house the modules I need to run.  So sad.


<duck>
jake

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb  7 12:53:25 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 18:53:25 +0000
Subject: 11/45 hack?
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36CE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> 
>   The first 25 slots are for an initial "unibus a" terminator, cpu,
> floating point and memory, which, since I only have one bipolar matrix, is
> an enormous waste of like ten slots (they're wired for weird voltage and
> would presumably explode other boards installed there, right?).

Yes, AFAIK those memory slots are custom-wired so don't use them for
anything else.

>   So then there are three slots available at the end, 26, 27, 28 that are
> also marked "non-standard voltage."  I guess that means that putting normal
> boards in there is right out, too.  Anyway, the unibus out and bridge 9200
> jumper that connects unibus a and unibus b are supposed to go there.
> That's it for the main backplane.

You can put 3 quad-height SPC boards in there, if you don't then you have
to fit grant continuity cards. It's traditional to put the console DL11 there.

>   I'm going to duck after asking this, but would it be at all feasible to
> rewire the main 11/45 backplane to get rid of the weird voltages in those
> bipolar slots so they'd accommodate normal boards like these?

I am sure it's _possible_ but I wouldn't do it. The 11/45 is rare enough
as it is, I wouldn't make a permanent change to the CPU backplane. And
be warned it may not be an easy change, there's a PCB under all that wire-
wrap that carried power and ground at least. If you have to change any of 
that it is a _very_ big job.

>   Short of that, what can I do?  I definitely don't want another chassis.

Any reason not to have a 5.25" or 10.5" expansion box. From what I recall it is 
possible to drop the CPU and PSUs by 5.25" fairly easily so you should be able
to make room for the former.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb  7 12:55:50 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 18:55:50 +0000
Subject: seeking quality tape recorder
In-Reply-To: <28B16DD69BB94FA3A785FC97A97582F7@310e2>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061013280.1693@nyx.feedle.net>
 <c713b4$eomt02@fipsb01.cogeco.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502061213470.1976@nyx.feedle.net>
 <54D530D3.5000701@sydex.com>
 <0EA774D4-3A14-4E36-8B4D-453CE486BB5D@661.org>,
 <28B16DD69BB94FA3A785FC97A97582F7@310e2>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36DC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> 
> Not all recorders work equally well, especially
> with Commodore computers which use custom
> recorders and a sort-of-digital semi-square wave
> instead of 'normal' audio sine waves.
> 
> A better quality recorder does not necessarily
> translate into a better chance of successful
> recordings.

Amazingly for computer data I have had a lot of 
success with the Radio Shack CCR82 (the little one)
Mine needed a new drive belt after about 20 years,
but that it all that went wrong with it, and I even used it
with a PET (with a custom interface).

It's horrible for audio recording, of course..

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb  7 13:07:57 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 19:07:57 +0000
Subject: Sharp PC-1600 keyboard issues
In-Reply-To: <54D5AEF7.6010505@gmail.com>
References: <54D5AEF7.6010505@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36F0@EXMBX16.thus.corp>


> The PC-1600 powers on and mostly behaves normally after an "All Reset"
> but the keyboard is having trouble; here are the symptoms:

When one of my PC1500s showed similar symptoms, it was, alas, a defective
I/O pin on the I/O controller ASIC. Fortunately in the case of the PC1500 the
same I/O controller turns up in the peripherals so I took one from a dead
printer/cassette interface. 

But it would certainly be worth taking it apart and cleaning it.

> I've found the Technical Drawing set here:
> http://www.sharp-pc-1600.de/Schaltpl%8ane%20A3/Technical_Drawing_DINA3.pdf
> which makes it obvious that the dead home-row keys are related to the
> KIN3 line from the keyboard matrix; I note that the keyboard signals are
> brought to the edge of the PCB and connected to a membrane layer which
> contains additional circuitry, including what looks to be an IC that
> does the keyboard decoding.  My first guess would be dirty contact

That may well be the CPU.

> between the PCB and this membrane (esp. since the lines in question are
> close to a hole in the battery compartment where the aforementioned
> 30-year-old batteries were...) but I'm a bit nervous to disassemble and
> clean this without knowing how it's held together.  Anyone have any
> experience here? Any tips?

The exploded diagram on the last page of those schematics suggests to me 
that it is built very much like the PC1500. On that machine you take off the
battery cover and batteries and undo all the screws on the bottom. The case
separates, you unfold it on the FPC. There are a couple of brackets to remove, 
then lots of screws and the keyboard PCB just lifts out. The only gotcha is that
the key buttons are all loose in the top case so don't drop it or turn it over...

-tony


Thanks as always,
Josh


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Sat Feb  7 13:20:31 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 13:20:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150207164746.7062218C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150207164746.7062218C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502071313040.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Sat, 7 Feb 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:

>    > From: Tothwolf
>
>    > Before I forget again, did you check for +5V on pin 1 (enable) when
>    > you were testing your existing oscillator?
>
> Wow. Never thought to try that. Then again, I don't look for +5V on your 
> average 74xxx when I'm debugging, either! :-) I mean, it's a trace, the 
> solder on the pin looks good, that's as far as I go, usually! And 
> there's nothing shown as connected to that pin on the circuit diagram.
>
> So I looked, and... it's at ground (or floating). The only pin that has 
> anything is 14, at +5V (expected). But I looked online for some 
> datasheets for similar oscillators, and some of them say 'pin 1 - N/C'. 
> Are yours tri-state? (That's the enable pin on the tri-state ones.)
>
> I suppose even if yours are tri-state, I can still use them; a quick 
> ohmmeter check shows that pin 1 isn't connected to either power or 
> ground, so I can probably tie it high (via a resistor, which in addition 
> to being normal practise, will prevent a major disaster in case I'm 
> confused - a state I'm often in :-).

According to the datasheets, the parts I have use pin 1 as the enable pin, 
so I assume they are. I've included links to the two datasheets in the 
reply I sent you off-list. I usually just see pin 1 tied directly to 14 on 
a lot of boards when these type of oscillators are used so I don't know 
that you would even need a resistor there, just a mod wire would likely 
suffice.

From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Feb  7 13:20:48 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 20:20:48 +0100
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>

Pete Turnbull wrote:

> On 06/02/2015 07:44, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >You don't ned no pullup for +5. All open TTL inputs are reading High w/o
> >any pullup.
> 
> Yeah.  So someone at Commodore thought when they designed one version of 
> the PET.  We had a few that erratically misbehaved.  It turned out that 
> one input on a 74LS00 (I think it was) was floating, and switching noise 
> made it erratic.  Floating inputs place the internal circuitry in an 
> intermediate state, can cause increased current draw, typically slow the 
> device down by increasing switching times, and can cause misbehaviour.
> 
> TTL is supposed to have a 1K pullup (to limit possible transients); 
> LSTTL can be directly connected to Vcc.
> 
> -- 
> Pete
> 
> Pete Turnbull

Yes Pete, not all People over here are totally braindead.

I've told him that he can leave out the +5V Connection for testing
purposes, for nothing other.
That has nothing todo with your Commodore problem.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Feb  7 13:30:10 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 20:30:10 +0100
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150206134218.1246D18C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150206134218.1246D18C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150207193010.GB55055@beast.freibergnet.de>

Noel Chiappa wrote:

>     > From: Brent Hilpert
> 
>     >> Well, try removing W1 to isolate the output of the xtal oscillator E15
>     >> from inverter input pin E4.4.
> 
> Sigh, the crystal output is dead as a doornail. Total flat-line. Guess I'm
> going to have to find a new one...
> 
> I actually think there's an open in there, because the input to the buffer
> inverter stays at +2V, whether the crystal is connected or not. If there was
> some sort of internal short in the crystal taking its output to ground, I'd
> have expected it to pull the inverter's input down.
> 
>     > TP4 looks to be an 'input' test point, rather than an output. The
>     > pull-down resistor value (150 or 180 ohms) has been selected such that
>     > it is low enough to allow enough current to flow through the tri-state
>     > control input E4.1 to pull it low normally, but high enough to allow
>     > one to connect TP4 high, to enter tri-state
> 
> Ah, got it. (I tended to assume test points were outputs, but I need to
> remember that they may be inputs.)
> 
>     > What the point of going to tri-state is, is not clear, considering that
>     > W1 is there for an external clock. A conjecture is there may have been
>     > some external test fixture that tri-stated it for some sort of
>     > synchronous single-step clocking.
> 
> Yeah, but couldn't they have lifted the W1 jumper, and fed their test clock in
> that way? Eh, not important.
> 
>     > Could also check the V reading on the open E4.4 input.
> 
> See above - +2V is a floating TTL input, ISTR?
> 
> 
>     > From: Holm Tiffe
> 
>     > Hmm, may be since his hints are standard debugging technique and you
>     > aren't really familiar with debugging??
> 
> I cheerfully admit to being primarily a software person. But I have been
> debugging broken hardware off and on for 30+ years - although not as a
> principal occupation, of course. I think it's more just that my mind does not
> do hardware intuitively (the more-so, the further one gets from the ideal -
> aka digital at the design level - to real hardware) - I have to think about
> it.

There is nothing wrong with your brain :-)

You aren't familiar with that kind of mater, that's all.

> 
>     > You don't ned no pullup for +5. All open TTL inputs are reading High
>     > w/o any pullup.
> 
> That's why all those boards use pullups on unused inputs that need to be 1,
> right? :-) But you're probably correct for a quick test.
> 
>        Noel

Noel, I gave you a hint for the debugging of that circuit, not for
constructing reliable electronics with TTL circuits.
May be there is a difference?

Your answer is exactly what I've expect from one that don't really know
what he is exactly doing inside that electronics.
Take a look to the internal circuit of an 7400, you will find a Transistor
with multible emitters at the input. Inputs are drawing current if you
connect them to GND and excatly NONE if you connect them to VCC.

So if you still want to use smileys while answering me, tell me what do you
think that is happening inside the circuit if you connect the 5V to the
inputs..

and not it is time for me to smile: :-))

Regards,

Holm 

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Feb  7 13:32:41 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 20:32:41 +0100
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150207164746.7062218C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150207164746.7062218C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150207193241.GC55055@beast.freibergnet.de>

Noel Chiappa wrote:

>     > From: Tothwolf
> 
>     > Before I forget again, did you check for +5V on pin 1 (enable) when you
>     > were testing your existing oscillator?
> 
> Wow. Never thought to try that. Then again, I don't look for +5V on your
> average 74xxx when I'm debugging, either! :-) I mean, it's a trace, the
> solder on the pin looks good, that's as far as I go, usually! And there's
> nothing shown as connected to that pin on the circuit diagram.
> 
> So I looked, and... it's at ground (or floating). The only pin that has
> anything is 14, at +5V (expected). But I looked online for some datasheets
> for similar oscillators, and some of them say 'pin 1 - N/C'. Are yours
> tri-state? (That's the enable pin on the tri-state ones.)
> 
> I suppose even if yours are tri-state, I can still use them; a quick ohmmeter
> check shows that pin 1 isn't connected to either power or ground, so I can
> probably tie it high (via a resistor, which in addition to being normal
> practise, will prevent a major disaster in case I'm confused - a state I'm
> often in :-).
> 
> 	Noel

Bullshit.
Most of that Oscillator Cans don't have an Enable Input.
The Oscillator is bad, period.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 13:45:16 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 13:45:16 -0600
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <54D66B4C.1010302@gmail.com>

On 02/05/2015 04:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Feb 2015, Ali wrote:
>> RadioShack had it essentially right in the 2014 Super Bowl commercial -
>> the 80s called and they did want their store back. What they screwed up
>> was thinking that meant the old store had to go and be replaced with the
>> current monstrosity.
>> RadioShack should have brought back the store of the 1980s and updated
>> it items like cheap cables, Raspberry Pi kits, etc. I.E. hobbyist and do
>> it yourself stuff. Yes, they still would have to close a number of
>> locations (do you really need a ratshack on every corner?) but what
>> would have been left behind would have thrived...
>
> No, they would have had to take it back to the 1960s and 1970s.
> By the 1980s, Radio Shack was already committed to changing from hobbyist
> supplies to crappy consumer electronics.

I just visited my local one (I wasn't even sure if it was still there) and 
was actually quite surprised with how many components they had - not 
significant by any means of course, but still far more than I remember 
there being in the last store I went into (which was of similar size, but 
well over a decade ago now).

They didn't have a 7809 regulator, which is what I actually went there for 
on the offchance they had one, but there were enough 
probably-useful-at-some-future-date bits and pieces that I'll go back in a 
few weeks to see if it's worth loading up on stuff. The guy behind the 
counter said 6-8 weeks before they close the doors for good - although 
component prices might not be dropped much below the 25% off that they're 
currently at (I should have asked where the unsold stock was going).

cheers

Jules


From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 13:53:33 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 11:53:33 -0800
Subject: Sharp PC-1600 keyboard issues
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36F0@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <54D5AEF7.6010505@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36F0@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <54D66D3D.7030703@gmail.com>

On 2/7/2015 11:07 AM, tony duell wrote:
>> The PC-1600 powers on and mostly behaves normally after an "All Reset"
>> but the keyboard is having trouble; here are the symptoms:
> When one of my PC1500s showed similar symptoms, it was, alas, a defective
> I/O pin on the I/O controller ASIC. Fortunately in the case of the PC1500 the
> same I/O controller turns up in the peripherals so I took one from a dead
> printer/cassette interface.
>
> But it would certainly be worth taking it apart and cleaning it.
>
>> I've found the Technical Drawing set here:
>> http://www.sharp-pc-1600.de/Schaltpl%8ane%20A3/Technical_Drawing_DINA3.pdf
>> which makes it obvious that the dead home-row keys are related to the
>> KIN3 line from the keyboard matrix; I note that the keyboard signals are
>> brought to the edge of the PCB and connected to a membrane layer which
>> contains additional circuitry, including what looks to be an IC that
>> does the keyboard decoding.  My first guess would be dirty contact
> That may well be the CPU.
>
>> between the PCB and this membrane (esp. since the lines in question are
>> close to a hole in the battery compartment where the aforementioned
>> 30-year-old batteries were...) but I'm a bit nervous to disassemble and
>> clean this without knowing how it's held together.  Anyone have any
>> experience here? Any tips?
> The exploded diagram on the last page of those schematics suggests to me
> that it is built very much like the PC1500. On that machine you take off the
> battery cover and batteries and undo all the screws on the bottom. The case
> separates, you unfold it on the FPC. There are a couple of brackets to remove,
> then lots of screws and the keyboard PCB just lifts out. The only gotcha is that
> the key buttons are all loose in the top case so don't drop it or turn it over...

I'm more concerned about disconnecting the membrane from the PCB (the 
PCB is on pg. 41/42, the membrane on 45/46 -- you can see on the lower 
edge the connections made between the two) as I'm not sure how the two 
are held together -- there's a metal bracket on top that sandwiches the 
two together (and is screwed into the "front" of the machine -- see 
parts 20/21 on the exploded disassembly).  I'm afraid if I take the two 
apart I may never get them back together making good contact again.  
Have you dealt with anything like this? Anything I should be concerned 
about?

Thanks,
Josh


>
> -tony
>
>
> Thanks as always,
> Josh
>
>


From ad at ardiehl.de  Sat Feb  7 05:51:32 2015
From: ad at ardiehl.de (Armin Diehl)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 12:51:32 +0100
Subject: Microdata disk/tape images
In-Reply-To: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
References: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
Message-ID: <54D5FC44.6040908@ardiehl.de>

On 02/05/2015 10:19 PM, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
> Long shot, but does anyone know of any available disk/tape/paper tape/ROM images for any of the Microdata machines (800/1600) or the relatives (Intertechnique Multi-8/Multi-4, MAI Basic Four BB-II)?
>
> There?s a bit of documentation available - Bitsavers has a bit, and I have some MAI documentation that I?m in the process of scanning.  I?m toying with the idea of emulating this machine, but I?m having difficulty locating any software for it.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Ian
Not exactly that, however, i may have something for BB-IV but i think 
these ones used cpu's developed by basic four. I have one 14" harddisk 
from a model 210 as well as a disk pack for a basic four 510, both 
should be bootable. I have the machines/drives as well but not yet tried 
to fire them up. The 210 came with a tape 1/4" drive but i dont have any 
tapes.

I also thought about writing an emulator but i have not yet found the 
manuals for the cpus used (1300 CPU Technical Manual / M1300 Series CPU 
Organisation and Description Reference Manual). I have scanned the 
available documentation and it is saved at Al's bitsaves site (pdf/mai/).

The 210: http://www.ardiehl.de/basicfour/mai210/pics/small/index.html
The 510: http://www.ardiehl.de/basicfour/mai510/pics/small/
Harddisk: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/mai/BFISD8052_Model_2460_Fixed_Media_Disk_Drive_ServiceManual_1981.pdf
Disk Drive: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/mai/BFISD8006_Model_2500_Fixed_Disk_Drive_ServiceManual_1979.pdf


-- 

----------------
Gr?sse
Armin Diehl
ad at ardiehl.de


From pbirkel at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 08:25:41 2015
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 09:25:41 -0500
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
Message-ID: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>

I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A module" and M8163
"Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
regarding it.  At least the M8162 has a pair of 20ma-style SLU connectors
on it, but no UARTs that I can see.

Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?  Or to
something else entirely?

Is the MKA11 (which I can't find documented online) a revised MK11?  The
field-guide seems to imply this given its entry for the M8164 which
basically reads like this:

M8158       MK11                       U   Address buffer module

M8159       MK11                       U   Data buffer module

M8160       MK11                       U   Control A module

M8161       MK11                       U   Control B module

M8162       MK11                       U   Port MUX A module

M8163       MK11                       U   Port MUX B module

M8164       MK11/MKA11          U   Data buffer module (Replaces M8159)


It seems to me that something is incorrect in the field-guide, but none of
my researches have identified where the error is and what the right
answer(s) might be.


Anyone here have any experience/knowledge with/of the MKA11 and/or the
M8261/M8163?


Thank you,


paul

From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Sat Feb  7 10:35:10 2015
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 17:35:10 +0100
Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
Message-ID: <54D63EBE.4060802@bluewin.ch>



Even the BBC is reporting  : http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31188257

Wil we see a flood of speccies and BBC-B ?

Jos

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb  7 14:29:49 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 12:29:49 -0800
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D66B4C.1010302@gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net> <54D66B4C.1010302@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D675BD.4090504@sydex.com>

On 02/07/2015 11:45 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:

> They didn't have a 7809 regulator, which is what I actually went there
> for on the offchance they had one...

I'd be surprised if they did, even in the old days.  How much call is 
there for a 9 volt positive linear regulator?

> but there were enough probably-useful-at-some-future-date bits and
> pieces that I'll go back in a few weeks to see if it's worth loading
> up on stuff. The guy behind the counter said 6-8 weeks before they
> close the doors for good - although component prices might not be
> dropped much below the 25% off that they're currently at (I should
> have asked where the unsold stock was going).

One of the bargains, if you can use it, is the wire-wrap tool about the 
size of a large jeweler's screwdriver.  An end cap pops off to reveal an 
AWG 30 wire stripper.  I think I found one at about $7.00 there.

Compare that with the cost of an OK or Vector WW tool.

--Chuck



From radiotest at juno.com  Sat Feb  7 14:30:54 2015
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 15:30:54 -0500
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D66B4C.1010302@gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net> <54D66B4C.1010302@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20150207152833.03dd6c40@juno.com>

At 02:45 PM 2/7/2015, Jules Richardson wrote:

>They didn't have a 7809 regulator

Use an LM317T - I just cleaned two stores out of them. Today I dropped $150 between those two stores.

Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb  7 14:37:34 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 20:37:34 +0000
Subject: Sharp PC-1600 keyboard issues
In-Reply-To: <54D66D3D.7030703@gmail.com>
References: <54D5AEF7.6010505@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36F0@EXMBX16.thus.corp>,
 <54D66D3D.7030703@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3736@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> 
> I'm more concerned about disconnecting the membrane from the PCB (the
> PCB is on pg. 41/42, the membrane on 45/46 -- you can see on the lower
> edge the connections made between the two) as I'm not sure how the two
> are held together -- there's a metal bracket on top that sandwiches the
> two together (and is screwed into the "front" of the machine -- see
> parts 20/21 on the exploded disassembly).  I'm afraid if I take the two
> apart I may never get them back together making good contact again.
> Have you dealt with anything like this? Anything I should be concerned
> about?

I wouldn't separate them unless you have to, You may well find they are 
lightly glued or even soldered, if so, do not separate them at the start. Of course
if the membrane comes off when you undo the screws then it is intended that
it is separated during servicing, so no worries.

When you have the PCB out, then do a continuity check on the signal in question,
Even if you find it open, make sure the 'open' is at the junction of membrane and
PCB, not an open track on one or other.

-tony

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Feb  7 14:47:03 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  7 Feb 2015 15:47:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: When to re-condition electrolytics
Message-ID: <20150207204703.7010518C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So, I'm about to bring up an old 11/10, and step a) is going to be getting the
power supply up. So this means probably reconditioning some old electrolytics.
So my question is 'should I _always_ recondition old caps, or is there some
way to tell if they are still OK'?

E.g. if they check out OK on an ohmmeter (no dead shorts), and also on a ESR
meter, does that mean they are good to go? Or should I just always recondition
them?

I ask because this power supply (H750) seems to be a switching supply, and so
I can't use the simple VARIAC hack, I'm going to have to do each capacitor
individually. (For you experienced hardware guys, this is probably No Big
Deal, but I'm mildly terrified... :-)

      Noel

From js at cimmeri.com  Sat Feb  7 14:55:32 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 15:55:32 -0500
Subject: When to re-condition electrolytics
In-Reply-To: <20150207204703.7010518C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150207204703.7010518C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54D67BC4.6010404@cimmeri.com>



On 2/7/2015 3:47 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> So, I'm about to bring up an old 11/10, and step a) is going to be getting the
> power supply up. So this means probably reconditioning some old electrolytics.
> So my question is 'should I _always_ recondition old caps
*
Yes.

*
> or is there some way to tell if they are still OK'?
*
The process of reconditioning them tells 
you if they're still ok or not.


*
> E.g. if they check out OK on an ohmmeter (no dead shorts), and also on a ESR
> meter, does that mean they are good to go?
*
No.*

> Or should I just always recondition them?
*Always.

*
> I ask because this power supply (H750) seems to be a switching supply, and so
> I can't use the simple VARIAC hack
*That's correct, but even if you could, 
the Variac method isn't very good, even 
with linears.*

*- J.*


From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 14:56:07 2015
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 15:56:07 -0500
Subject: RA-81 issues (Jerry Wright)
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=83_gRGyHdd7EaSRweXztR3ZTNrCGUG0ZxxJypnAOs+eQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> From: Jerry Wright
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2015 8:54 PM
> Subject: RA-81 issues
>
> I have a rack full of  RA81's, all Pass Rom base self test.  If  I try to
> spin
> up one of the drives, It will start to spin up and then just stop.  There
> are
> no front panel lights that come on or codes on the terminal screen.  all 3
> drives do the same.
>
> These are not connected to a controller, and  the manual does not say this
> is need.
>
> The forth one has no drive and the motor seems to turn hard,  is there a
> brake
> on the motor ???
>
> - what I'm I missing here
> Thanks Jerry
>

I have seen two common problems problems with RA-81 drives.
Failure of the motor start capacitor, and failure of the optical sensor on
the bottom of the HDA for spindle speed. With both failures the drive will
start to spin-up, and then spin-down.

You can connect a serial terminal emulator to the DB25 diag connector. Then
you can run internal diagnostics and get the fault codes.

The RICM has several RA-81 drives, all with failed optical sensors.

-- 
Michael Thompson

From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 15:12:11 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 15:12:11 -0600
Subject: 11/45 hack?
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36CE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36CE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMcksVOeivLow3KqEisb_Udenz8ZxF_buVqi4b_LQXSKQ@mail.gmail.com>

Again, I agree with Tony. I would not hack up the cpu backplane,and put in
a BA11-KE above the 45. Assuming you have it in a H960, 6 feet tall
cabinet, I would mount it 10 1/2 above the 45 for convenience  and air flow.

That should give you all the room you'll ever need.

On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 12:53 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> >
> >   The first 25 slots are for an initial "unibus a" terminator, cpu,
> > floating point and memory, which, since I only have one bipolar matrix,
> is
> > an enormous waste of like ten slots (they're wired for weird voltage and
> > would presumably explode other boards installed there, right?).
>
> Yes, AFAIK those memory slots are custom-wired so don't use them for
> anything else.
>
> >   So then there are three slots available at the end, 26, 27, 28 that are
> > also marked "non-standard voltage."  I guess that means that putting
> normal
> > boards in there is right out, too.  Anyway, the unibus out and bridge
> 9200
> > jumper that connects unibus a and unibus b are supposed to go there.
> > That's it for the main backplane.
>
> You can put 3 quad-height SPC boards in there, if you don't then you have
> to fit grant continuity cards. It's traditional to put the console DL11
> there.
>
> >   I'm going to duck after asking this, but would it be at all feasible to
> > rewire the main 11/45 backplane to get rid of the weird voltages in those
> > bipolar slots so they'd accommodate normal boards like these?
>
> I am sure it's _possible_ but I wouldn't do it. The 11/45 is rare enough
> as it is, I wouldn't make a permanent change to the CPU backplane. And
> be warned it may not be an easy change, there's a PCB under all that wire-
> wrap that carried power and ground at least. If you have to change any of
> that it is a _very_ big job.
>
> >   Short of that, what can I do?  I definitely don't want another chassis.
>
> Any reason not to have a 5.25" or 10.5" expansion box. From what I recall
> it is
> possible to drop the CPU and PSUs by 5.25" fairly easily so you should be
> able
> to make room for the former.
>
> -tony
>
>

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Feb  7 15:15:36 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 21:15:36 -0000
Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
In-Reply-To: <54D63EBE.4060802@bluewin.ch>
References: <54D63EBE.4060802@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <001201d0431b$37208340$a56189c0$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos Dreesen
> Sent: 07 February 2015 16:35
> To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
> 
> 
> 
> Even the BBC is reporting  : http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31188257
> 
> Wil we see a flood of speccies and BBC-B ?
> 
> Jos

Oh dear! Mentioning values like that on the BBC is not going to make it any easier for the genuine enthusiasts, who don't collect for the monetary value.

Regards

Rob


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Feb  7 15:15:36 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 21:15:36 -0000
Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
In-Reply-To: <54D63EBE.4060802@bluewin.ch>
References: <54D63EBE.4060802@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <001201d0431b$37208340$a56189c0$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos Dreesen
> Sent: 07 February 2015 16:35
> To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
> 
> 
> 
> Even the BBC is reporting  : http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31188257
> 
> Wil we see a flood of speccies and BBC-B ?
> 
> Jos

Oh dear! Mentioning values like that on the BBC is not going to make it any easier for the genuine enthusiasts, who don't collect for the monetary value.

Regards

Rob


From blstuart at bellsouth.net  Sat Feb  7 15:13:37 2015
From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 13:13:37 -0800
Subject: When to re-condition electrolytics
In-Reply-To: <20150207204703.7010518C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <1423343617.87171.YahooMailBasic@web184702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

> So my question is 'should I _always_ recondition old caps, or is there some
> way to tell if they are still OK'?
>.../ 
> I ask because this power supply (H750) seems to be a

I wouldn't say it's a bad idea to look into the caps.  However, if the
H750 is anything like the H740s I've dealt with, they're solid as a
rock.  The most common issue I've encountered on the 740s is an
accidental slip of the hand that causes an internal fuse to blow.
So far I haven't run into problematic caps on either of the 740s
I've got.  Stay tuned though.  Murphy may make me regret saying
that.

BLS


From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sat Feb  7 17:02:09 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 18:02:09 -0500
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
In-Reply-To: <8b38405b-bf59-490a-ac29-e31b704808e2@classiccmp.org>
References: <20150204174020.252AF18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <54D2DEFC.8040604@compsys.to>
 <8b38405b-bf59-490a-ac29-e31b704808e2@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <54D69971.5090704@compsys.to>

Does anyone know why DEC would have MSV11-JC boards for use ONLY
with a PDP-11/84 and the MSV11-JE boards which could be used with
BOTH the PDP-11/83 and the PDP-11/84?  It seems inconsistent.

 >Glen Slick wrote:

>>On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
>  
>
>>Longer explanation:  The PMI memory used in the PDP-11/84 is sufficiently
>>different
>>from the PMI memory used in the PDP-11/83 that the magic smoke might be
>>released
>>if the incorrect PMI memory is used.  The MSV11-JB (1 MB) and MSV11-JC (2
>>MB)
>>are used in the PDP-11/84.  The MSV11-JD (1 MB) and the MSV11-JE (2 MB) are
>>used in the PDP-11/83.
>>
>The MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE are documented as being compatible with both
>the PDP-11/84 and Q-bus systems. The documented restriction is that
>the MSV11-JB and MSV11-JC are only compatible with PDP-11/84 systems
>and incompatible with Q-bus systems.
>
>http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/oemMicronotes.pdf
>
>uNote # 028
>MSV11-Q/M/J MEMORY COMPARISONS
>
>MSV11-J
>-------
>The MSV11-J has four versions, the MSV11-JB and the MSV11-JC which are
>used in the PDP-11/84 UNIBUS systems and the MSV11-JD and the MSV11-JE
>are used in either the MicroPDP-11/83 Q-bus systems, or the PDP-11/84
>UNIBUS systems. All four modules use ECC memory for error correction,
>as well as using 256K bit MOS RAM parts on either a half for fully
>populated quad size module.
>
>NOTE:
>-----
>NONE OF THE FOUR MSV11-J MODULES CAN BE PLACED IN A Q/Q BACKPLANE
>SLOT. IF THIS IS ATTEMPTED PERMANENT DAMAGE WILL BE DONE TO THE BOARDS
>AND TO THE SYSTEM.
>
>The MSV11-JB (M8637-BA) is a half populated quad size PMI memory
>module containing 1MB of memory. The second version of the MSV11-J is
>the MSV11-JC (M8637-CA), this is a fully populated MSV11-JB quad size
>PMI memory module containing 2MB of memory. These two module can not
>be used in a Q-bus system due to gate array incompatibilities, and can
>only be used in the PDP-11/84 systems which use the UNIBUS/PMI bus
>interface (KTJ11-A). The third version of the MSV11-J is the MSV11-JD
>(M8637-DA) which is a half populated quad size PMI memory module
>containing 1MB of memory. The last version of the MSV11-J is the
>MSV11-JE, (M8637-EA) which is a fully populated MSV11-JD quad size PMI
>memory module containing 2MB of memory. These last two modules can be
>used with either the MicroPDP-11/83 system which uses the Q-bus/PMI
>bus interface or the PDP-11/84 system which was mentioned above.
>
>Although the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE are PMI memories they can be used
>in two other Q-bus configurations.
>(more details follow...)
>
THANK  YOU for the correction.  After 20 years, the memory becomes
a bit hazy.  Also, I have only the 2 boards which are both 2 MB, so there
must have been some confusion when I was told that a 1 MB and a 2 MB
board should not be combined.  It is good to know that is also not true.

Does anyone know why DEC would have both MSV11-JC boards for use
only with a PDP-11/84 and MSV11-JE boards which could be used with
both the PDP-11/83 and the PDP-11/84?

I have never worked much with Unibus systems and never with a PDP-11/84.
Also, thank you for confirming that these memory boards MUST  NOT be
used in a Q/Q backplane.

At one point, the MSV11-JE memory boards were equally priced with other
2 MB Qbus memory boards since most individuals thought they could be used
only as PMI memory.  I have no idea what the current prices are.

Jerome Fine

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sat Feb  7 17:03:05 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 18:03:05 -0500
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
In-Reply-To: <20150205131024.8775618C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150205131024.8775618C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54D699A9.3010401@compsys.to>

 >Noel Chiappa wrote:

>    > From: Jerome H. Fine
>
>    > The MSV11-JB (1 MB) and MSV11-JC (2 MB) are used in the PDP-11/84. The
>    > MSV11-JD (1 MB) and the MSV11-JE (2 MB) are used in the PDP-11/83.
>
>Err, not sure this is correct: I got an 11/84 with an MSV11-JD in it. As
>someone pointed out in a later message, the difference between the B/C and
>D/E is that the B/C only work as PMI memories, their QBUS functionality has
>some issues (IIRC, something to do with QBUS block transfers not working
>correctly).
>
>    > In addition, for at least the PDP-11/83, the PMI memory must be placed
>    > into the backplane ahead of the CPU for the memory to function as PMI
>    > memory. That may be the only position allowed for the memory for the
>    > PDP-11/84.
>
>The 11/84 backplane has two special Q22/CD slots after the processor slot
>which the memory goes in, with the CD sections wired to through-connect the
>PMI pins.
>
THANK  YOU for both corrections.

With regard to the MSV11-JD in the PDP-11/84, was this board placed 
after the
KDJ11-AE board or before it?  I suspect that it would be after the CPU when
these boards are used in a PDP-11/84 backplane, but I wanted to confirm this
for other potential PDP-11/84 users.

Also, has anyone ever used a KDJ11-AC board with the 15 MHz crystal in the
PDP-11/84 backplane?  I can't see why it should not work, but just maybe
the PDP-11/84 backplane and a simple KDJ11-AC board are not compatible.
It seems unlikely, but it also seems best to ask.

Jerome Fine

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Feb  7 17:17:55 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  7 Feb 2015 18:17:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
Message-ID: <20150207231755.E10AB18C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jerome H. Fine

    > With regard to the MSV11-JD in the PDP-11/84, was this board placed
    > after the KDJ11-AE board or before it?

After. The CPU _has_ to go in slot 1 on the 11/84 backplane. (I suspect, but
have yet to verify, that this is in part because bus grant lines are run
directly from that slot to the UNIBUS adapter slot.)

    > Also, has anyone ever used a KDJ11-AC board with the 15 MHz crystal in
    > the PDP-11/84 backplane? I can't see why it should not work, but just
    > maybe the PDP-11/84 backplane and a simple KDJ11-AC board are not
    > compatible.

Would a KDJ11-A board even work in an 11/84 backplane? It wouldn't (couldn't)
do the special PMI (actually, we ought to distinguish between 'QBUS PMI',
such as in the 11/83, and 'UNIBUS PMI', as in the 11/84; the second is a
superset of the first, I believe) protocol, so it wouldn't work with the
UNIBUS adapter.

See also Micronote #39, "Differences between KDJ11-A and KDJ11-B".

	Noel

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 17:37:50 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 15:37:50 -0800
Subject: Sharp PC-1600 keyboard issues
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3736@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <54D5AEF7.6010505@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36F0@EXMBX16.thus.corp>,
 <54D66D3D.7030703@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3736@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <54D6A1CE.7050706@gmail.com>

On 2/7/2015 12:37 PM, tony duell wrote:
>> I'm more concerned about disconnecting the membrane from the PCB (the
>> PCB is on pg. 41/42, the membrane on 45/46 -- you can see on the lower
>> edge the connections made between the two) as I'm not sure how the two
>> are held together -- there's a metal bracket on top that sandwiches the
>> two together (and is screwed into the "front" of the machine -- see
>> parts 20/21 on the exploded disassembly).  I'm afraid if I take the two
>> apart I may never get them back together making good contact again.
>> Have you dealt with anything like this? Anything I should be concerned
>> about?
> I wouldn't separate them unless you have to, You may well find they are
> lightly glued or even soldered, if so, do not separate them at the start. Of course
> if the membrane comes off when you undo the screws then it is intended that
> it is separated during servicing, so no worries.
>
> When you have the PCB out, then do a continuity check on the signal in question,
> Even if you find it open, make sure the 'open' is at the junction of membrane and
> PCB, not an open track on one or other.
>
> -tony
>

OK, I probed things out and there are two discoveries to report:

1. Continuity of KIN3 is good from the keyboard PCB to IC1 (the SC7852) 
in 98.  That's good!
2. KIN3 and KIN4 (KIN4 is used for "SHIFT") appear to be shorted 
together somewhere.  That's bad, but explains some of the bizarre 
behavior...

I'll have to do a bit more poking around to see if I can figure out 
where this is happening.  The membrane is well attached to the PCB after 
removing the boards from the housing, so I assume they're glued and/or 
soldered together...

Thanks,
- Josh


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sat Feb  7 17:56:42 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 15:56:42 -0800
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150207164746.7062218C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150207164746.7062218C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <C1D4ABD3-E133-4FB9-AA95-8FDDC1CFF7C9@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-07, at 8:47 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>> From: Tothwolf
> 
>> Before I forget again, did you check for +5V on pin 1 (enable) when you
>> were testing your existing oscillator?
> 
> Wow. Never thought to try that. Then again, I don't look for +5V on your
> average 74xxx when I'm debugging, either! :-) I mean, it's a trace, the
> solder on the pin looks good, that's as far as I go, usually! And there's
> nothing shown as connected to that pin on the circuit diagram.
> 
> So I looked, and... it's at ground (or floating). The only pin that has
> anything is 14, at +5V (expected). But I looked online for some datasheets
> for similar oscillators, and some of them say 'pin 1 - N/C'. Are yours
> tri-state? (That's the enable pin on the tri-state ones.)
> 
> I suppose even if yours are tri-state, I can still use them; a quick ohmmeter
> check shows that pin 1 isn't connected to either power or ground, so I can
> probably tie it high (via a resistor, which in addition to being normal
> practise, will prevent a major disaster in case I'm confused - a state I'm
> often in :-).

You shouldn't need to do anything regarding pin 1, (this) datasheet indicates they (the FOX F5C-2 series) have an internal pull-up R on pin 1,
so the output should be active by default.

	http://www.datasheets360.com/pdf/8636385546948709069

As your fault description sounds like it could be stuck in tri-state, you could try an experiment with your existing osc. and pull pin 1 high through an R to see if it activates, on the small probability the internal fault is loss of that internal R.

I have one 13.824 unit I was going to offer but Tothwolf has lots of them, so all the better there.
They are a baud-rate generator frequency for the standard (300..9600..19200...) baud rate series as well as the 14400..57600.. series.
Could probably be found in some 90s-era modems.

If you want to be comprehensive/paranoid you could still affirm that inverter input is functioning properly on the also-small probability a fault there wrecked the oscillator output.

From jws at jwsss.com  Sat Feb  7 18:00:12 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 16:00:12 -0800
Subject: Microdata disk/tape images
In-Reply-To: <54D5FC44.6040908@ardiehl.de>
References: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
 <54D5FC44.6040908@ardiehl.de>
Message-ID: <54D6A70C.3070004@jwsss.com>


On 2/7/2015 3:51 AM, Armin Diehl wrote:
> On 02/05/2015 10:19 PM, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
>> Long shot, but does anyone know of any available disk/tape/paper 
>> tape/ROM images for any of the Microdata machines (800/1600) or the 
>> relatives (Intertechnique Multi-8/Multi-4, MAI Basic Four BB-II)?
>>
>> There?s a bit of documentation available - Bitsavers has a bit, and I 
>> have some MAI documentation that I?m in the process of scanning.  I?m 
>> toying with the idea of emulating this machine, but I?m having 
>> difficulty locating any software for it.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Ian
> Not exactly that, however, i may have something for BB-IV but i think 
> these ones used cpu's developed by basic four. I have one 14" harddisk 
> from a model 210 as well as a disk pack for a basic four 510, both 
> should be bootable. I have the machines/drives as well but not yet 
> tried to fire them up. The 210 came with a tape 1/4" drive but i dont 
> have any tapes.
>
> I also thought about writing an emulator but i have not yet found the 
> manuals for the cpus used (1300 CPU Technical Manual / M1300 Series 
> CPU Organisation and Description Reference Manual). I have scanned the 
> available documentation and it is saved at Al's bitsaves site (pdf/mai/).
>
> The 210: http://www.ardiehl.de/basicfour/mai210/pics/small/index.html
> The 510: http://www.ardiehl.de/basicfour/mai510/pics/small/
These are very nice photos.  Both of your systems appear to be on the 
Microdata form factor, and if you were to look at the edge card 
connector, it is probably a 130 pin (65 x 2) connector.74181 ALU chips.  
I see a lot of what appears to be the scale logic that a 1600 type CPU 
or an advanced design could use on that the boards your photographed.

Also the of the 4 switches are they all dual position, or are some 
momentary?  i believe that Basic 4 in this series of system kept the 4 
sense switches of the 1600 in their hardware with similar functions 
across all variations.

The QIC drives were emerging in the late 70's and early 80's as a 
storage media, but in the era of the original blue systems with 
Microdata CPUs they were not around.

Very nice systems.

I don't know how much Century Trident info I have to offer, but I may 
have documents if Bitsavers does not.  I just got a stash of 
documentation which comes from the direction of Pick Systems 
documentation.  They used the 80, 100 and I think 200mb Tridents for 
their Evolution systems.

Thanks
Jim

The Microdata 1600 cpu will have two
> Harddisk: 
> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/mai/BFISD8052_Model_2460_Fixed_Media_Disk_Drive_ServiceManual_1981.pdf 
>
> Disk Drive: 
> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/mai/BFISD8006_Model_2500_Fixed_Disk_Drive_ServiceManual_1979.pdf
>
>


From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 18:04:15 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 19:04:15 -0500
Subject: 11/45 hack?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuMcksVOeivLow3KqEisb_Udenz8ZxF_buVqi4b_LQXSKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36CE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CACwhfuMcksVOeivLow3KqEisb_Udenz8ZxF_buVqi4b_LQXSKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfDdyNrZNNcQbo3RacCkJaAq24hATi225f1wu5sP-Oe4hg@mail.gmail.com>

OK, thanks.  It seemed like too wild an idea but I thought I'd at least
ask.  Would've been cool if it was engineered to allow one to simply change
power harnesses and regulators and have a normal backplane, but I get that
that's not the case.  Not I understand why every 11/45 picture I've seen
includes a second chassis!

  This MOS / Bipolar section of the backplane is definitely not compatible
with M7891, correct?

thx
jake


On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> Again, I agree with Tony. I would not hack up the cpu backplane,and put in
> a BA11-KE above the 45. Assuming you have it in a H960, 6 feet tall
> cabinet, I would mount it 10 1/2 above the 45 for convenience  and air
> flow.
>
> That should give you all the room you'll ever need.
>
> On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 12:53 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > >
> > >   The first 25 slots are for an initial "unibus a" terminator, cpu,
> > > floating point and memory, which, since I only have one bipolar matrix,
> > is
> > > an enormous waste of like ten slots (they're wired for weird voltage
> and
> > > would presumably explode other boards installed there, right?).
> >
> > Yes, AFAIK those memory slots are custom-wired so don't use them for
> > anything else.
> >
> > >   So then there are three slots available at the end, 26, 27, 28 that
> are
> > > also marked "non-standard voltage."  I guess that means that putting
> > normal
> > > boards in there is right out, too.  Anyway, the unibus out and bridge
> > 9200
> > > jumper that connects unibus a and unibus b are supposed to go there.
> > > That's it for the main backplane.
> >
> > You can put 3 quad-height SPC boards in there, if you don't then you have
> > to fit grant continuity cards. It's traditional to put the console DL11
> > there.
> >
> > >   I'm going to duck after asking this, but would it be at all feasible
> to
> > > rewire the main 11/45 backplane to get rid of the weird voltages in
> those
> > > bipolar slots so they'd accommodate normal boards like these?
> >
> > I am sure it's _possible_ but I wouldn't do it. The 11/45 is rare enough
> > as it is, I wouldn't make a permanent change to the CPU backplane. And
> > be warned it may not be an easy change, there's a PCB under all that
> wire-
> > wrap that carried power and ground at least. If you have to change any of
> > that it is a _very_ big job.
> >
> > >   Short of that, what can I do?  I definitely don't want another
> chassis.
> >
> > Any reason not to have a 5.25" or 10.5" expansion box. From what I recall
> > it is
> > possible to drop the CPU and PSUs by 5.25" fairly easily so you should be
> > able
> > to make room for the former.
> >
> > -tony
> >
> >
>

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sat Feb  7 18:28:53 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 16:28:53 -0800
Subject: Basic Four / was Re: Microdata disk/tape images
In-Reply-To: <54D6A70C.3070004@jwsss.com>
References: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
 <54D5FC44.6040908@ardiehl.de> <54D6A70C.3070004@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <F00580BF-0DDD-46EC-8770-6186D8904101@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-07, at 4:00 PM, jwsmobile wrote:
> On 2/7/2015 3:51 AM, Armin Diehl wrote:
>> On 02/05/2015 10:19 PM, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
>>> Long shot, but does anyone know of any available disk/tape/paper tape/ROM images for any of the Microdata machines (800/1600) or the relatives (Intertechnique Multi-8/Multi-4, MAI Basic Four BB-II)?
>>> 
>>> There?s a bit of documentation available - Bitsavers has a bit, and I have some MAI documentation that I?m in the process of scanning.  I?m toying with the idea of emulating this machine, but I?m having difficulty locating any software for it.
>>> 
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>> 
>>> Ian
>> Not exactly that, however, i may have something for BB-IV but i think these ones used cpu's developed by basic four. I have one 14" harddisk from a model 210 as well as a disk pack for a basic four 510, both should be bootable. I have the machines/drives as well but not yet tried to fire them up. The 210 came with a tape 1/4" drive but i dont have any tapes.
>> 
>> I also thought about writing an emulator but i have not yet found the manuals for the cpus used (1300 CPU Technical Manual / M1300 Series CPU Organisation and Description Reference Manual). I have scanned the available documentation and it is saved at Al's bitsaves site (pdf/mai/).
>> 
>> The 210: http://www.ardiehl.de/basicfour/mai210/pics/small/index.html
>> The 510: http://www.ardiehl.de/basicfour/mai510/pics/small/
> These are very nice photos.  Both of your systems appear to be on the Microdata form factor, and if you were to look at the edge card connector, it is probably a 130 pin (65 x 2) connector.74181 ALU chips.  I see a lot of what appears to be the scale logic that a 1600 type CPU or an advanced design could use on that the boards your photographed.
> 
> Also the of the 4 switches are they all dual position, or are some momentary?  i believe that Basic 4 in this series of system kept the 4 sense switches of the 1600 in their hardware with similar functions across all variations.
> 
> The QIC drives were emerging in the late 70's and early 80's as a storage media, but in the era of the original blue systems with Microdata CPUs they were not around.
> 
> Very nice systems.
> 
> I don't know how much Century Trident info I have to offer, but I may have documents if Bitsavers does not.  I just got a stash of documentation which comes from the direction of Pick Systems documentation.  They used the 80, 100 and I think 200mb Tridents for their Evolution systems.


I programmed for a Microdata/REALITY system as a teenager ca. 1977 (business accounting applications), and I remember Basic Four as another competitor / minicomputer company in the business market, but never knew much about them.

Can you (or anyone) briefly describe what distinguished Basic Four in the marketplace? What were they offering that was particular or special or 'interesting'?, esp. if they were using the same CPU initially?


From ian at platinum.net  Sat Feb  7 18:58:29 2015
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 16:58:29 -0800
Subject: Basic Four / was Re: Microdata disk/tape images
In-Reply-To: <F00580BF-0DDD-46EC-8770-6186D8904101@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
 <54D5FC44.6040908@ardiehl.de> <54D6A70C.3070004@jwsss.com>
 <F00580BF-0DDD-46EC-8770-6186D8904101@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <F226ACDF-1BFC-4D8D-8617-A80E9C93D84E@platinum.net>


> On Feb 7, 2015, at 4:28 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:

> I programmed for a Microdata/REALITY system as a teenager ca. 1977 (business accounting applications), and I remember Basic Four as another competitor / minicomputer company in the business market, but never knew much about them.
> 
> Can you (or anyone) briefly describe what distinguished Basic Four in the marketplace? What were they offering that was particular or special or 'interesting'?, esp. if they were using the same CPU initially?

From what I remember/can gather, MAI?s claim to fame was their Business Basic.  The MAI Basic Four BB-II machine ran Business Basic which was Basic with a bunch of database-type stuff built in.

I see your UBC email address, so you may be interested to know that the BB-II machine I acquired in the 90s was originally from the project that constructed Revelstoke dam.  From the software that was installed on it, it appears to have been used for both engineering calculations as well as payroll.

Ian


From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 19:09:50 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 17:09:50 -0800
Subject: Sharp PC-1600 keyboard issues
In-Reply-To: <54D6A1CE.7050706@gmail.com>
References: <54D5AEF7.6010505@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36F0@EXMBX16.thus.corp>,
 <54D66D3D.7030703@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3736@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <54D6A1CE.7050706@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D6B75E.7050809@gmail.com>

On 2/7/2015 3:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> On 2/7/2015 12:37 PM, tony duell wrote:
>>> I'm more concerned about disconnecting the membrane from the PCB (the
>>> PCB is on pg. 41/42, the membrane on 45/46 -- you can see on the lower
>>> edge the connections made between the two) as I'm not sure how the two
>>> are held together -- there's a metal bracket on top that sandwiches the
>>> two together (and is screwed into the "front" of the machine -- see
>>> parts 20/21 on the exploded disassembly).  I'm afraid if I take the two
>>> apart I may never get them back together making good contact again.
>>> Have you dealt with anything like this? Anything I should be concerned
>>> about?
>> I wouldn't separate them unless you have to, You may well find they are
>> lightly glued or even soldered, if so, do not separate them at the start. Of course
>> if the membrane comes off when you undo the screws then it is intended that
>> it is separated during servicing, so no worries.
>>
>> When you have the PCB out, then do a continuity check on the signal in question,
>> Even if you find it open, make sure the 'open' is at the junction of membrane and
>> PCB, not an open track on one or other.
>>
>> -tony
>>
>
> OK, I probed things out and there are two discoveries to report:
>
> 1. Continuity of KIN3 is good from the keyboard PCB to IC1 (the 
> SC7852) in 98.  That's good!
> 2. KIN3 and KIN4 (KIN4 is used for "SHIFT") appear to be shorted 
> together somewhere.  That's bad, but explains some of the bizarre 
> behavior...
>
> I'll have to do a bit more poking around to see if I can figure out 
> where this is happening.  The membrane is well attached to the PCB 
> after removing the boards from the housing, so I assume they're glued 
> and/or soldered together...
>
> Thanks,
> - Josh
>

Found a tiny solder bridge on the keyboard PCB just below where the 
membrane is attached, between KIN3 and KIN4; I removed it and now 
everything is working properly, except the SML key still puts the 
machine into some manner of Japanese input mode rather than lowercase 
(which doesn't really work well since this machine doesn't have the 
Kanji character sets in ROM...).  Not sure what the cause of that is, 
but it's a pretty minor issue all things considered.

Thanks for the input here!
- Josh

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sat Feb  7 20:17:34 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 21:17:34 -0500
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
In-Reply-To: <20150207231755.E10AB18C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150207231755.E10AB18C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54D6C73E.2010607@compsys.to>

 >Noel Chiappa wrote:

>    > From: Jerome H. Fine
>
>    > With regard to the MSV11-JD in the PDP-11/84, was this board placed
>    > after the KDJ11-AE board or before it?
>
>After. The CPU _has_ to go in slot 1 on the 11/84 backplane. (I suspect, but
>have yet to verify, that this is in part because bus grant lines are run
>directly from that slot to the UNIBUS adapter slot.)
>  
>
In that case, I would assume that the PDP-11/84 backplane is wired
so that the PMI memory is activated correctly WHEN the CPU is in
slot 1 and the first memory board is in slot 2.  Note that I am repeating
what you just stated.

The reason that I have stated this for the PDP-11/84 is because for
the PDP-11/83 (usually in a BA23 or a BA123), the backplane is
wired so that the PMI memory is activated correctly WHEN the
first memory board is in slot 1 and the CPU follows the memory
boards.

>    > Also, has anyone ever used a KDJ11-AC board with the 15 MHz crystal in
>    > the PDP-11/84 backplane? I can't see why it should not work, but just
>    > maybe the PDP-11/84 backplane and a simple KDJ11-AC board are not
>    > compatible.
>
>Would a KDJ11-A board even work in an 11/84 backplane? It wouldn't (couldn't)
>do the special PMI (actually, we ought to distinguish between 'QBUS PMI',
>such as in the 11/83, and 'UNIBUS PMI', as in the 11/84; the second is a
>superset of the first, I believe) protocol, so it wouldn't work with the
>UNIBUS adapter.
>
>See also Micronote #39, "Differences between KDJ11-A and KDJ11-B".
>
I made another err.  I meant the KDJ11-BD board or the M8190-AC.

Since I will never have an opportunity to ever use a PDP-11/84, it will 
never
be possible to check my question.

HOWEVER,  NOTE that the identical CPU board, KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE),
is used in BOTH the PDP-11/83 and the PDP-11/84.  The KDJ11-BD is the
M8190-AC, a quad board (if I remember correctly).  Although the KDJ11-AC
has a 15 MHz crystal, when used in the correct position in a BA23 box, 
namely
AFTER the PMI memory, the KDJ11-BD is reported as a PDP-11/83 by the
RESORC.SAV program and the speed of the system is about 20% faster than
when the PMI memory is placed into the ABCD slots AFTER the CPU at which
point RESORC.SAV reports the CPU as the PDP-11/73B.

That is why it seems reasonable to hope that the PDP-11/84 can also use the
KDJ11-BD instead of the KDJ11-BF, except that it would then run about
10% to 15% slower.

Jerome Fine

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sat Feb  7 20:35:31 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 18:35:31 -0800
Subject: Basic Four / was Re: Microdata disk/tape images
In-Reply-To: <F226ACDF-1BFC-4D8D-8617-A80E9C93D84E@platinum.net>
References: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
 <54D5FC44.6040908@ardiehl.de> <54D6A70C.3070004@jwsss.com>
 <F00580BF-0DDD-46EC-8770-6186D8904101@cs.ubc.ca>
 <F226ACDF-1BFC-4D8D-8617-A80E9C93D84E@platinum.net>
Message-ID: <872F44A8-6B28-4C2F-B4E6-4508909E91A3@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-07, at 4:58 PM, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
> 
>> On Feb 7, 2015, at 4:28 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
> 
>> I programmed for a Microdata/REALITY system as a teenager ca. 1977 (business accounting applications), and I remember Basic Four as another competitor / minicomputer company in the business market, but never knew much about them.
>> 
>> Can you (or anyone) briefly describe what distinguished Basic Four in the marketplace? What were they offering that was particular or special or 'interesting'?, esp. if they were using the same CPU initially?
> 
>> From what I remember/can gather, MAI?s claim to fame was their Business Basic.  The MAI Basic Four BB-II machine ran Business Basic which was Basic with a bunch of database-type stuff built in.
> 
> I see your UBC email address, so you may be interested to know that the BB-II machine I acquired in the 90s was originally from the project that constructed Revelstoke dam.  From the software that was installed on it, it appears to have been used for both engineering calculations as well as payroll.

Hmm, used by a sub-contractor to BC Hydro perhaps? I'd think BC Hydro in-house would have tended to be doing such stuff on its mainframes. I could see an engineering department having it's own mini, but payroll would have been more likely to have been handled centrally.

Did it travel far (from BC) to make it into your hands?

BC Hydro is scheduled to be decommissioning a large 60's-era thermal generating plant a few miles from me in the next year or so. I'm considering trying to make contacts there to find out if there might be anything interesting in the way of computer systems being discarded but I suspect the old/original ones have already gone in furnace upgrades 15 years ago.
I used to know the plant manager but he's since retired.

In the past I've missed a large, functioning 70's-era PDP-11 system tossed out during a control-system upgrade at a local oil-refinery (~10 years ago) - I heard about that one after-the-fact from a high-school acquaintance who works in the control room; and a 70's-era Foxboro system tossed when another nearby oil-refinery was dismantled (~20 years ago).

BC Hydro moved it's major system-control station off the top of SFU/Burnaby Mtn. just a few years ago. I know there were large VAX/VMS systems in there as late as the late-90's (not sure which model, I think they were beige+brown rather than white+blue), those were likely discarded too.


From ian at platinum.net  Sat Feb  7 21:04:06 2015
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 19:04:06 -0800
Subject: Basic Four / was Re: Microdata disk/tape images
In-Reply-To: <872F44A8-6B28-4C2F-B4E6-4508909E91A3@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
 <54D5FC44.6040908@ardiehl.de> <54D6A70C.3070004@jwsss.com>
 <F00580BF-0DDD-46EC-8770-6186D8904101@cs.ubc.ca>
 <F226ACDF-1BFC-4D8D-8617-A80E9C93D84E@platinum.net>
 <872F44A8-6B28-4C2F-B4E6-4508909E91A3@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <A7CA8C2C-8226-4E53-9AC9-7184B375A294@platinum.net>


> On Feb 7, 2015, at 6:35 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
> 
> Hmm, used by a sub-contractor to BC Hydro perhaps? I'd think BC Hydro in-house would have tended to be doing such stuff on its mainframes. I could see an engineering department having it's own mini, but payroll would have been more likely to have been handled centrally.
> 
> Did it travel far (from BC) to make it into your hands?
> 

Because of the combined usage, I suspect it was from one of the many subcontractors working on the project.

It didn?t travel far - I?m in Kelowna.  I under-estimated how long ago I got the machine.  Replaying the timeline in my mind, it was 1987 or 1988. A friend of a friend contacted me because he knew I was into electronics and computers, and said that his dad had this ?old computer thing? in a barn that he wanted moved. It was going to go to the dump if I didn?t pick it up. It was this huge blue rack cabinet with a smoked plexiglass front cover. It was *HEAVY*. I begged another friend to borrow a pick-up truck, and we hauled it out of the barn, and into my second-floor apartment.

This was before the recognizable internet, so trying to find information was very difficult. After putting out feelers, I found out that there was an ex-MAI technician in Vernon (the next town over). That was a fruitful meeting that got me a whole pile of documentation and other information for the machine - enough to restore it and get it up and running.

In fact, I guess that machine is what put me on my career path today - that ex-MAI technician and I formed our community?s first ISP a couple of years later, and my employment has been directly connected to the Internet ever since.  It pains me that the machine and I parted company, and I?d love to find another one.

Ian



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sat Feb  7 21:19:26 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 19:19:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Basic Four / was Re: Microdata disk/tape images
In-Reply-To: <F226ACDF-1BFC-4D8D-8617-A80E9C93D84E@platinum.net>
References: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
 <54D5FC44.6040908@ardiehl.de> <54D6A70C.3070004@jwsss.com>
 <F00580BF-0DDD-46EC-8770-6186D8904101@cs.ubc.ca>
 <F226ACDF-1BFC-4D8D-8617-A80E9C93D84E@platinum.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502071919010.18008@deltasoft.com>

On Sat, 7 Feb 2015, Ian McLaughlin wrote:

> From what I remember/can gather, MAI?s claim to fame was their Business 
> Basic.  The MAI Basic Four BB-II machine ran Business Basic which was 
> Basic with a bunch of database-type stuff built in.
>
I suspect it was some kind of Pick variant.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sat Feb  7 22:08:21 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 20:08:21 -0800
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>
 <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-07, at 11:20 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Pete Turnbull wrote:
> 
>> On 06/02/2015 07:44, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>>> You don't ned no pullup for +5. All open TTL inputs are reading High w/o
>>> any pullup.
>> 
>> Yeah.  So someone at Commodore thought when they designed one version of 
>> the PET.  We had a few that erratically misbehaved.  It turned out that 
>> one input on a 74LS00 (I think it was) was floating, and switching noise 
>> made it erratic.  Floating inputs place the internal circuitry in an 
>> intermediate state, can cause increased current draw, typically slow the 
>> device down by increasing switching times, and can cause misbehaviour.
>> 
>> TTL is supposed to have a 1K pullup (to limit possible transients); 
>> LSTTL can be directly connected to Vcc.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Pete
>> 
>> Pete Turnbull
> 
> Yes Pete, not all People over here are totally braindead.
> 
> I've told him that he can leave out the +5V Connection for testing
> purposes, for nothing other.

No you didn't. While the context of the discussion is testing and that may have been your intention, your comment specified no such qualification, and as such at best left it ambiguous/unclear.
Pete's comment was valid clarification and additional information (although I could have minor quibbles with some of the technical phrasing).

Anyways (for Noel), everyone's right:

	- An open TTL input will generally function or act as a logic high.
	  It was not unknown for designs to leave inputs open for static-state high,
	  but it is considered poor practice and can result in problems in some circumstances.

	- Some sources specify using a pull-up R instead of direct connection to +5, but in practice many considered the R's as unnecessary/overkill.
	  Some designs used pull-up R's, some designs directly connect to +5.
	  I've even seen both in the same piece of equipment (probably multiple engineers involved in different parts of the design).

This is for TTL (and DTL) only, MOS/CMOS is another matter.


> That has nothing todo with your Commodore problem.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Holm


From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 23:46:17 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 23:46:17 -0600
Subject: 11/45 hack?
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfDdyNrZNNcQbo3RacCkJaAq24hATi225f1wu5sP-Oe4hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36CE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CACwhfuMcksVOeivLow3KqEisb_Udenz8ZxF_buVqi4b_LQXSKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDdyNrZNNcQbo3RacCkJaAq24hATi225f1wu5sP-Oe4hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMGCg3bn0+k-ErFK_uSOnnxQ4Zhur2oP1vu56oW=visbw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm pretty sure it's not.

Do you only have one G401?  strange...

On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:

> OK, thanks.  It seemed like too wild an idea but I thought I'd at least
> ask.  Would've been cool if it was engineered to allow one to simply change
> power harnesses and regulators and have a normal backplane, but I get that
> that's not the case.  Not I understand why every 11/45 picture I've seen
> includes a second chassis!
>
>   This MOS / Bipolar section of the backplane is definitely not compatible
> with M7891, correct?
>
> thx
> jake
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Again, I agree with Tony. I would not hack up the cpu backplane,and put
> in
> > a BA11-KE above the 45. Assuming you have it in a H960, 6 feet tall
> > cabinet, I would mount it 10 1/2 above the 45 for convenience  and air
> > flow.
> >
> > That should give you all the room you'll ever need.
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 12:53 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > >   The first 25 slots are for an initial "unibus a" terminator, cpu,
> > > > floating point and memory, which, since I only have one bipolar
> matrix,
> > > is
> > > > an enormous waste of like ten slots (they're wired for weird voltage
> > and
> > > > would presumably explode other boards installed there, right?).
> > >
> > > Yes, AFAIK those memory slots are custom-wired so don't use them for
> > > anything else.
> > >
> > > >   So then there are three slots available at the end, 26, 27, 28 that
> > are
> > > > also marked "non-standard voltage."  I guess that means that putting
> > > normal
> > > > boards in there is right out, too.  Anyway, the unibus out and bridge
> > > 9200
> > > > jumper that connects unibus a and unibus b are supposed to go there.
> > > > That's it for the main backplane.
> > >
> > > You can put 3 quad-height SPC boards in there, if you don't then you
> have
> > > to fit grant continuity cards. It's traditional to put the console DL11
> > > there.
> > >
> > > >   I'm going to duck after asking this, but would it be at all
> feasible
> > to
> > > > rewire the main 11/45 backplane to get rid of the weird voltages in
> > those
> > > > bipolar slots so they'd accommodate normal boards like these?
> > >
> > > I am sure it's _possible_ but I wouldn't do it. The 11/45 is rare
> enough
> > > as it is, I wouldn't make a permanent change to the CPU backplane. And
> > > be warned it may not be an easy change, there's a PCB under all that
> > wire-
> > > wrap that carried power and ground at least. If you have to change any
> of
> > > that it is a _very_ big job.
> > >
> > > >   Short of that, what can I do?  I definitely don't want another
> > chassis.
> > >
> > > Any reason not to have a 5.25" or 10.5" expansion box. From what I
> recall
> > > it is
> > > possible to drop the CPU and PSUs by 5.25" fairly easily so you should
> be
> > > able
> > > to make room for the former.
> > >
> > > -tony
> > >
> > >
> >
>

From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 23:50:48 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 23:50:48 -0600
Subject: 11/45 hack?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuMGCg3bn0+k-ErFK_uSOnnxQ4Zhur2oP1vu56oW=visbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36CE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CACwhfuMcksVOeivLow3KqEisb_Udenz8ZxF_buVqi4b_LQXSKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDdyNrZNNcQbo3RacCkJaAq24hATi225f1wu5sP-Oe4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMGCg3bn0+k-ErFK_uSOnnxQ4Zhur2oP1vu56oW=visbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOjgnCJWQEbcN12dzQH-OvPKD5iEGZsTqq=vJBYW4ZHVQ@mail.gmail.com>

I wouldn't worry about memory yet. Shorten the bus( move the terminator) to
just one memory backplane, and take out anything you don't have to have to
run xxdp. once it's running, add one option at a time and retest the system.

It takes longer, but can be better in the end.

Paul

On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 11:46 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm pretty sure it's not.
>
> Do you only have one G401?  strange...
>
> On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> OK, thanks.  It seemed like too wild an idea but I thought I'd at least
>> ask.  Would've been cool if it was engineered to allow one to simply
>> change
>> power harnesses and regulators and have a normal backplane, but I get that
>> that's not the case.  Not I understand why every 11/45 picture I've seen
>> includes a second chassis!
>>
>>   This MOS / Bipolar section of the backplane is definitely not compatible
>> with M7891, correct?
>>
>> thx
>> jake
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Again, I agree with Tony. I would not hack up the cpu backplane,and put
>> in
>> > a BA11-KE above the 45. Assuming you have it in a H960, 6 feet tall
>> > cabinet, I would mount it 10 1/2 above the 45 for convenience  and air
>> > flow.
>> >
>> > That should give you all the room you'll ever need.
>> >
>> > On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 12:53 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > >
>> > > >   The first 25 slots are for an initial "unibus a" terminator, cpu,
>> > > > floating point and memory, which, since I only have one bipolar
>> matrix,
>> > > is
>> > > > an enormous waste of like ten slots (they're wired for weird voltage
>> > and
>> > > > would presumably explode other boards installed there, right?).
>> > >
>> > > Yes, AFAIK those memory slots are custom-wired so don't use them for
>> > > anything else.
>> > >
>> > > >   So then there are three slots available at the end, 26, 27, 28
>> that
>> > are
>> > > > also marked "non-standard voltage."  I guess that means that putting
>> > > normal
>> > > > boards in there is right out, too.  Anyway, the unibus out and
>> bridge
>> > > 9200
>> > > > jumper that connects unibus a and unibus b are supposed to go there.
>> > > > That's it for the main backplane.
>> > >
>> > > You can put 3 quad-height SPC boards in there, if you don't then you
>> have
>> > > to fit grant continuity cards. It's traditional to put the console
>> DL11
>> > > there.
>> > >
>> > > >   I'm going to duck after asking this, but would it be at all
>> feasible
>> > to
>> > > > rewire the main 11/45 backplane to get rid of the weird voltages in
>> > those
>> > > > bipolar slots so they'd accommodate normal boards like these?
>> > >
>> > > I am sure it's _possible_ but I wouldn't do it. The 11/45 is rare
>> enough
>> > > as it is, I wouldn't make a permanent change to the CPU backplane. And
>> > > be warned it may not be an easy change, there's a PCB under all that
>> > wire-
>> > > wrap that carried power and ground at least. If you have to change
>> any of
>> > > that it is a _very_ big job.
>> > >
>> > > >   Short of that, what can I do?  I definitely don't want another
>> > chassis.
>> > >
>> > > Any reason not to have a 5.25" or 10.5" expansion box. From what I
>> recall
>> > > it is
>> > > possible to drop the CPU and PSUs by 5.25" fairly easily so you
>> should be
>> > > able
>> > > to make room for the former.
>> > >
>> > > -tony
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 00:41:33 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 01:41:33 -0500
Subject: 11/45 hack?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuMGCg3bn0+k-ErFK_uSOnnxQ4Zhur2oP1vu56oW=visbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36CE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CACwhfuMcksVOeivLow3KqEisb_Udenz8ZxF_buVqi4b_LQXSKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDdyNrZNNcQbo3RacCkJaAq24hATi225f1wu5sP-Oe4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMGCg3bn0+k-ErFK_uSOnnxQ4Zhur2oP1vu56oW=visbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfDWfKHaxTOL91UN=YYQA=0V6Re_jJHNgn1DKDkGeQP0+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:46 AM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm pretty sure it's not.
>
> Do you only have one G401?  strange...
>

  no, no, I have currently one mos/bipolar controller running one bipolar
memory board on the main 11/45 backplane.  Sexy but expensive and not
nearly enough to get stuff done in unix.  Then I have three 4KW core sets,
each on its own backplane with controller.  Very neat but very
space-consuming!

  I've decided that I'm probably going to remove the bipolar and core and
replace it with a plain old 124KW M7891 MS11.  Freeing up that space the
core is currently taking will allow me to install a plain dd11 backplane
for the other features I need.  Things like SMD big disk controller,
ethernet, dz11 terminal board, 124KW memory, etc. without having to go to
aother cabinet.  These all require MUD/SPC slots and I have *none*
currently.  So the core goes.  So sad.  I have a number of other pdp11s, so
it'll find a good use.  Unless someone out there wants to do a little
horse-trading!.

  But anyway, I'm getting waay ahead of myself here because I haven't even
been through the power yet.  Boards are all out and I'm enlisting the help
of my ee buddies to try to repair my H745s on Monday, so I'll play with the
good old 11/34 until then!

Thanks for the interest & comments!

--jake

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 00:42:23 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 01:42:23 -0500
Subject: 11/45 hack?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuOjgnCJWQEbcN12dzQH-OvPKD5iEGZsTqq=vJBYW4ZHVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36CE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CACwhfuMcksVOeivLow3KqEisb_Udenz8ZxF_buVqi4b_LQXSKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDdyNrZNNcQbo3RacCkJaAq24hATi225f1wu5sP-Oe4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMGCg3bn0+k-ErFK_uSOnnxQ4Zhur2oP1vu56oW=visbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuOjgnCJWQEbcN12dzQH-OvPKD5iEGZsTqq=vJBYW4ZHVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfBh3uJWuH1M2y60TgW6N9zYPE2+u3AD+xBfqQ0DzTp9Ng@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:50 AM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> I wouldn't worry about memory yet. Shorten the bus( move the terminator) to
> just one memory backplane, and take out anything you don't have to have to
> run xxdp. once it's running, add one option at a time and retest the
> system.
>
> It takes longer, but can be better in the end.


Exactly -- once I have the power squared away.
thx
jake

From n0body.h0me at inbox.com  Sun Feb  8 02:07:50 2015
From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 00:07:50 -0800
Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
In-Reply-To: <001201d0431b$37208340$a56189c0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <54d63ebe.4060802@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <14A6942F65D.00000968n0body.h0me@inbox.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com
> Sent: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 21:15:36 -0000
> To: jdr_use at bluewin.ch, cctalk at classiccmp.org, classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: Classic computing goes mainstream....
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos
>> Dreesen
>> Sent: 07 February 2015 16:35
>> To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
>> Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Even the BBC is reporting  : http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31188257
>> 
>> Wil we see a flood of speccies and BBC-B ?
>> 
>> Jos
> 
> Oh dear! Mentioning values like that on the BBC is not going to make it
> any easier for the genuine enthusiasts, who don't collect for the
> monetary value.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob

Actually, it's been a bitch for quite some time now; lots of guys with
deep pockets driving up prices on machines we could get for very little
money back in the day.

But that's old news; this dynamic occurs in many instances where you have
a small, niche interest that's embraced later by a larger (and more well-
heeled) crowd. 

I just hold on to the few treasures I have from that period (and before),
and grit my teeth if I have to pay the occasional premium for a part I 
need to get something working.

That's just the way it is.  On occasion, I will sell a part to someone
who needs it; some kind folks on this forum and elsewhere have done the
same for me.

Yeah, I own a couple of items that could conceivably be considered 
'Investment Grade', but that's not why I still own them. I don't 
buy much anymore; I just wanted to participate in a cheap but interesting
hobby.  It's still interesting, but it hasn't been cheap in a long time.

Regards,

N0body

____________________________________________________________
FREE ONLINE PHOTOSHARING - Share your photos online with your friends and family!
Visit http://www.inbox.com/photosharing to find out more!



From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Sat Feb  7 17:03:50 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 23:03:50 +0000
Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
In-Reply-To: <54D63EBE.4060802@bluewin.ch>
References: <54D63EBE.4060802@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <54D699D6.7070401@btinternet.com>

On 07/02/2015 16:35, Jos Dreesen wrote:
>
>
> Even the BBC is reporting  : http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31188257
>
> Wil we see a flood of speccies and BBC-B ?
>
> Jos
Well it may revalue what we each already own.
It may also flush out stuff that has been sitting in a non-collectors 
house or store.
Will it increase the number of collectors out there? I not sure it will.
The number of willing buyers out there can't be that many.

Rod


From useddec at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 03:16:45 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 03:16:45 -0600
Subject: 11/45 hack?
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfDWfKHaxTOL91UN=YYQA=0V6Re_jJHNgn1DKDkGeQP0+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36CE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CACwhfuMcksVOeivLow3KqEisb_Udenz8ZxF_buVqi4b_LQXSKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDdyNrZNNcQbo3RacCkJaAq24hATi225f1wu5sP-Oe4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMGCg3bn0+k-ErFK_uSOnnxQ4Zhur2oP1vu56oW=visbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDWfKHaxTOL91UN=YYQA=0V6Re_jJHNgn1DKDkGeQP0+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOMiTELhSp=sVygr0cda+movF9uvJu9DC5j7Gxe0GTkOw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jake,

The 3 core sets, accordind to your earlier post are the G110, G231, and
H214. these are 8kw each. Maybe the Monilithic will work and that might max
you out.

Think of the bipolar as very fast extra memory. It can sort of act like a
cache memory, and can help with processor throughput. I thought there were
2 controller boards and 4 G401s, but one is better than none. You can check
that on the top of the processor box in the module chart.

Paul

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:41 AM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:46 AM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm pretty sure it's not.
> >
> > Do you only have one G401?  strange...
> >
>
>   no, no, I have currently one mos/bipolar controller running one bipolar
> memory board on the main 11/45 backplane.  Sexy but expensive and not
> nearly enough to get stuff done in unix.  Then I have three 4KW core sets,
> each on its own backplane with controller.  Very neat but very
> space-consuming!
>
>   I've decided that I'm probably going to remove the bipolar and core and
> replace it with a plain old 124KW M7891 MS11.  Freeing up that space the
> core is currently taking will allow me to install a plain dd11 backplane
> for the other features I need.  Things like SMD big disk controller,
> ethernet, dz11 terminal board, 124KW memory, etc. without having to go to
> aother cabinet.  These all require MUD/SPC slots and I have *none*
> currently.  So the core goes.  So sad.  I have a number of other pdp11s, so
> it'll find a good use.  Unless someone out there wants to do a little
> horse-trading!.
>
>   But anyway, I'm getting waay ahead of myself here because I haven't even
> been through the power yet.  Boards are all out and I'm enlisting the help
> of my ee buddies to try to repair my H745s on Monday, so I'll play with the
> good old 11/34 until then!
>
> Thanks for the interest & comments!
>
> --jake
>

From useddec at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 03:35:36 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 03:35:36 -0600
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>
 <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuO+JOHeLxv0oy7k7RX4BVwwpESe9EEWTOFe9h=bn1KKxg@mail.gmail.com>

As i recall, dec would run cpu clocks till they failed, then back them off
20% or so. I had numerous customers who "modified" their cpus.

If you haven't found one yet, let me know. I should have a bow of them
here. And I know where they are!!!

Paul

On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 10:08 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:

> On 2015-Feb-07, at 11:20 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> > Pete Turnbull wrote:
> >
> >> On 06/02/2015 07:44, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >>> You don't ned no pullup for +5. All open TTL inputs are reading High
> w/o
> >>> any pullup.
> >>
> >> Yeah.  So someone at Commodore thought when they designed one version of
> >> the PET.  We had a few that erratically misbehaved.  It turned out that
> >> one input on a 74LS00 (I think it was) was floating, and switching noise
> >> made it erratic.  Floating inputs place the internal circuitry in an
> >> intermediate state, can cause increased current draw, typically slow the
> >> device down by increasing switching times, and can cause misbehaviour.
> >>
> >> TTL is supposed to have a 1K pullup (to limit possible transients);
> >> LSTTL can be directly connected to Vcc.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Pete
> >>
> >> Pete Turnbull
> >
> > Yes Pete, not all People over here are totally braindead.
> >
> > I've told him that he can leave out the +5V Connection for testing
> > purposes, for nothing other.
>
> No you didn't. While the context of the discussion is testing and that may
> have been your intention, your comment specified no such qualification, and
> as such at best left it ambiguous/unclear.
> Pete's comment was valid clarification and additional information
> (although I could have minor quibbles with some of the technical phrasing).
>
> Anyways (for Noel), everyone's right:
>
>         - An open TTL input will generally function or act as a logic high.
>           It was not unknown for designs to leave inputs open for
> static-state high,
>           but it is considered poor practice and can result in problems in
> some circumstances.
>
>         - Some sources specify using a pull-up R instead of direct
> connection to +5, but in practice many considered the R's as
> unnecessary/overkill.
>           Some designs used pull-up R's, some designs directly connect to
> +5.
>           I've even seen both in the same piece of equipment (probably
> multiple engineers involved in different parts of the design).
>
> This is for TTL (and DTL) only, MOS/CMOS is another matter.
>
>
> > That has nothing todo with your Commodore problem.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Holm
>
>

From jws at jwsss.com  Sun Feb  8 03:37:38 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 01:37:38 -0800
Subject: Basic Four / was Re: Microdata disk/tape images
In-Reply-To: <F00580BF-0DDD-46EC-8770-6186D8904101@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
 <54D5FC44.6040908@ardiehl.de> <54D6A70C.3070004@jwsss.com>
 <F00580BF-0DDD-46EC-8770-6186D8904101@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54D72E62.80900@jwsss.com>



On 2/7/2015 4:28 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> On 2015-Feb-07, at 4:00 PM, jwsmobile wrote:
>> On 2/7/2015 3:51 AM, Armin Diehl wrote:
>>> On 02/05/2015 10:19 PM, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
>>> <snip>

>>> I programmed for a Microdata/REALITY system as a teenager ca. 1977 
>>> (business accounting applications), and I remember Basic Four as 
>>> another competitor / minicomputer company in the business market, 
>>> but never knew much about them. Can you (or anyone) briefly describe 
>>> what distinguished Basic Four in the marketplace? What were they 
>>> offering that was particular or special or 'interesting'?, esp. if 
>>> they were using the same CPU initially? 
Microdata Reality or Pick reality was not marketed by Pick or Microdata 
with any domain specific support.  The systems were sold originally by 
MD thru a network of about 30 dealers, who added  or developed software 
systems to support all sorts of fields.

MAI was closer to the different software specialties, and I think took 
ownership early on selling MRP and so forth, systems.

I knew of a lot of contractors that worked for MAI Basic 4 and they 
wanted to have MAI to have a product that was a complete solution. They 
also built up / acquired Sorbus which did service on a lot of systems to 
further that.  Sort of a small IBM type company, since they never came 
close to the size and scale of IBM.

I don't know if a lot of customers programmed the Basic 4 systems, or go 
them installed and went on with whatever they delivrered to their core 
business.

Since I worked for Microdata, and also was and am in the Pick world, i 
saw a lot of people buy systems and since Pick systems all came with a 
nice manual, ended up sucked into the software development world, some 
to the detriment of their original day jobs.  Pick has a sort of siren 
song type of aura around it, especially in the 70's when you didn't have 
a zillion languages, and what you have today.

Though it was proprietary, Pick was and in its generic form, for 
instance D3, or Open-QM (you can download and run that) is very easy to 
program.  Problem in today age is it is still the old timeshare terminal 
model.  Most pick systems are wrapped in code to make them all web 
capable and all that.

Glen, Basic 4 and Pick are completely isolated from one another and have 
no bearing whatever on each other.

I see that Armin has an excellent page on the B4 systems, and you might 
notice his photos of the BB2 systems have only the 1.2mb front loading 
disks.  I don't know if he has any data from them of if anyone does, but 
that would be necessary to have before working on any way to run an 
emulated system.

Thanks
Jim



From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  8 03:42:39 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 10:42:39 +0100
Subject: RA-81 issues
In-Reply-To: <1423257685.1015.YahooMailNeo@web185306.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1423252466.33748.YahooMailNeo@web185303.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <54D526EA.60108@update.uu.se>
 <1423257685.1015.YahooMailNeo@web185306.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS7679B73F2772CB39CF41C86260@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Jerry Wright 
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2015 10:21 PM 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: RA-81 issues 

well now I feel real dumb.  I was looking for the  drive locks
and could only find the head lock.  Now I know the cable on 
the right is *not* for belt tension.  Thanks all

Henk, Is your 11/60 running

- Jerry    



Hi Jerry,
the 11/60 is running - sort of ... The console works,
so the CPU is OK. But store/examine memory location
seem to indicates stuck bit(s)  :-/
I just finished moving the collection to a 2150 sq. ft room
and found out that *many* systems need TLC.
The 11/60 is just one in the queue! I also want to work
on the website, but time flies ...

greetz,
- Henk

From erik at baigar.de  Sun Feb  8 04:11:19 2015
From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 11:11:19 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
In-Reply-To: <14A6942F65D.00000968n0body.h0me@inbox.com>
References: <54d63ebe.4060802@bluewin.ch>
 <14A6942F65D.00000968n0body.h0me@inbox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1502081058300.28781@typhoon>


Hi,

yes classic computers are getting more popular over time.
But I think this is only true for some very specific computers:

Apple and PDP-Series receive lot of attention where many
of the less known computers still remain cheap and unknown
although they are equally or more advanced and desereve
documentation, restoration etc.

I am not sure what triggers e.g. that the PDP-8s and PDP-11s
are so popular and many people interested in them (I guess 50% of
all mails in this list are somehow related to these) where
HPs, Novas, Rolms, Burroughs, Elliotts, ICTs etc. receive
only very little attention. Maybe the reason is that the PDPs
are easily available?

In many other fields of collecting, the rare items are more
expensive than the common ones  ;-)

>> Oh dear! Mentioning values like that on the BBC is not going to make it 
>> any easier for the genuine enthusiasts, who don't collect for the 
>> monetary value.

I am curious whether some time in the future there will be a
different (and even higher) price for working ones than just
for the "dead" collectors objects...

    Happy vintage computing,

        Erik.

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 04:28:57 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 10:28:57 -0000
Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
In-Reply-To: <54D699D6.7070401@btinternet.com>
References: <54D63EBE.4060802@bluewin.ch> <54D699D6.7070401@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <019901d0438a$0c916f30$25b44d90$@gmail.com>

If you look at the related the BBC have reported on this topic two years ago when the Apple Is started fetching MegaBucks so it is really a rehash of an old story.

However as supply dries up, and the number of machines in lofts can't go up , if there are the same number of buyers, and they have more money, prices will go up.

Working BBC-B's seem rare. Spetrums less so but as both (Really)only interest UK collectors I can't seem them ever fetching mega mucks. 

The more valuable UK stuff seems to be things like a working NASCOM I , this nice example fetched ?255.00

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231462106201?

I wonder what a working Newbear 7768 or 6809 board would fetch. 

Dave 
G4UGM
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod
> Smallwood
> Sent: 07 February 2015 23:04
> To: jdr_use at bluewin.ch; General at classiccmp.org;
> Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Classic computing goes mainstream....
> 
> On 07/02/2015 16:35, Jos Dreesen wrote:
> >
> >
> > Even the BBC is reporting  : http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31188257
> >
> > Wil we see a flood of speccies and BBC-B ?
> >
> > Jos
> Well it may revalue what we each already own.
> It may also flush out stuff that has been sitting in a non-collectors house or
> store.
> Will it increase the number of collectors out there? I not sure it will.
> The number of willing buyers out there can't be that many.
> 
> Rod



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 04:31:27 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 10:31:27 -0000
Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1502081058300.28781@typhoon>
References: <54d63ebe.4060802@bluewin.ch>
 <14A6942F65D.00000968n0body.h0me@inbox.com>
 <Pine.GSO.4.64.1502081058300.28781@typhoon>
Message-ID: <019e01d0438a$6535b1f0$2fa115d0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Erik
Baigar
> Sent: 08 February 2015 10:11
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: RE: Classic computing goes mainstream....
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> yes classic computers are getting more popular over time.
> But I think this is only true for some very specific computers:
> 
> Apple and PDP-Series receive lot of attention where many of the less known
> computers still remain cheap and unknown although they are equally or
> more advanced and desereve documentation, restoration etc.
> 
> I am not sure what triggers e.g. that the PDP-8s and PDP-11s are so
popular
> and many people interested in them (I guess 50% of all mails in this list
are
> somehow related to these) where HPs, Novas, Rolms, Burroughs, Elliotts,
> ICTs etc. receive only very little attention. Maybe the reason is that the
PDPs
> are easily available?

There is also lots of PDP-8 software, and look how many were made. Probably
more PDP-8's than all Novas. 

But software is often the killer. 

> 
> In many other fields of collecting, the rare items are more expensive than
> the common ones  ;-)
> 
> >> Oh dear! Mentioning values like that on the BBC is not going to make
> >> it any easier for the genuine enthusiasts, who don't collect for the
> >> monetary value.
> 
> I am curious whether some time in the future there will be a different
(and
> even higher) price for working ones than just for the "dead" collectors
> objects...
> 
>     Happy vintage computing,
> 
>         Erik.


From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Feb  8 05:20:54 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 12:20:54 +0100
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>
 <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <20150208112054.GB14680@beast.freibergnet.de>

Brent Hilpert wrote:

> On 2015-Feb-07, at 11:20 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> > Pete Turnbull wrote:
> > 
> >> On 06/02/2015 07:44, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >>> You don't ned no pullup for +5. All open TTL inputs are reading High w/o
> >>> any pullup.
> >> 
> >> Yeah.  So someone at Commodore thought when they designed one version of 
> >> the PET.  We had a few that erratically misbehaved.  It turned out that 
> >> one input on a 74LS00 (I think it was) was floating, and switching noise 
> >> made it erratic.  Floating inputs place the internal circuitry in an 
> >> intermediate state, can cause increased current draw, typically slow the 
> >> device down by increasing switching times, and can cause misbehaviour.
> >> 
> >> TTL is supposed to have a 1K pullup (to limit possible transients); 
> >> LSTTL can be directly connected to Vcc.
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> Pete
> >> 
> >> Pete Turnbull
> > 
> > Yes Pete, not all People over here are totally braindead.
> > 
> > I've told him that he can leave out the +5V Connection for testing
> > purposes, for nothing other.
> 
> No you didn't. While the context of the discussion is testing and that may have been your intention, your comment specified no such qualification, and as such at best left it ambiguous/unclear.
> Pete's comment was valid clarification and additional information (although I could have minor quibbles with some of the technical phrasing).

You are simply wrong. I'm answered in a thread reagarding a fault in a
clock circuit of an PDP11 Processor Board, not in a discussion regarding
the design of a new board with TTL cicuits.

Besides of that Petes sentence "TTL is supposed to have a 1K pullup (to
limit possible transients); LSTTL can be directly connected to Vcc." above
is plain wrong too.
Direct me to a datasheet containing this please.

> 
> Anyways (for Noel), everyone's right:
> 
> 	- An open TTL input will generally function or act as a logic high.
> 	  It was not unknown for designs to leave inputs open for static-state high,
> 	  but it is considered poor practice and can result in problems in some circumstances.

But not under Noel's circumstances.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Feb  8 08:25:38 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun,  8 Feb 2015 09:25:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
Message-ID: <20150208142538.A6D1118C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Noel Chiappa

    > (I suspect, but have yet to verify, that this is in part because bus
    > grant lines are run directly from that slot to the UNIBUS adapter slot.)

So it turns out I was half-wrong, but half-right. I was paging through a copy
of EK-PDP84-TM-PR4 (PDP-11/84 Technical Manual) which I recently acquired: in
section 2.1.14 "Backplane (H9277-A)", pg. 2-6, the following sentence appears:

  Bus signals BDMGI (pin AR2) and BIAKI (pin AM2) for slots 2 & 3 are jumpered
  on the front of the backplane.

(This is not in any other version of EK-PDP84-TM, of which I have several.)
So I got out my spare 11/84 backplane, and sure enough there are two jumpers,
W1 and W2. The traces connected to them are, luckily, on the surface, so it's
possible to see where they go: one end runs to a trace connected from slot 1
to slot 2, and the other to a trace connected from slot 3 to slot 4.

EK-PDP84-TM-PR2 actually contains (pp. D-4 to D-8) prints for the backplane.
Unfortunately, they are very low-res, and only partially readable, but one
can see, on the bottom of the first print (D-4), the two jumpers. The
associated traces do indeed connect to AM2 (BIAKI), AN2 (BIAKO), AR2 (BDMGI)
and AS2 (BDMGO).

In other words, when the jumpers are in, the CPU's BIAKO/BDMGO pins are
connected directly to the UNIBUS adapter's BIAKI/BDMGI pins; when they are
out, those signals are routed through the two 'memory' slots, in the normal
QBUS manner.


What this strongly suggests to me is that those two slots _can_ function as
real QBUS slots. Otherwise, why arrange so that the grant lines can run
through them? I haven't examined all the other pins, to make sure they
contain the full set of QBUS signals - in part because I don't want to pore
over those poor images!

(Speaking of which, does anyone have a copy of either 11/84 Field
Maintainance Print Set - MP-01955 or MP-02536? Neither one seems to be online
- at least, as best I can tell, from some Googling, although others may have
better Google-fu than me - and it would be fabulous to have access to them.)

But I do strongly suspect they can function that way; at some point, when I
have an /84 running, I'll actually try them out. As to why DEC put this
capability in, and then didn't document it or use it - who knows? Maybe they
though it would introduce extra complixity in the user instructions, or
something.


Anyway, I think we are close to cracking this particular puzzle...

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Feb  8 08:58:03 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun,  8 Feb 2015 09:58:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Differences between PDP-11/83-84 M8190-AB/AC and AD/AE CPU cards
Message-ID: <20150208145803.B7CCA18C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jerome H. Fine

    > for the PDP-11/83 (usually in a BA23 or a BA123), the backplane is
    > wired so that the PMI memory is activated correctly WHEN the first
    > memory board is in slot 1 and the CPU follows the memory boards.

That's an artifact of the way Qxx/CD backplanes, and PMI CPU cards, are
wired. (And you probably already knew this, but just to be explicit... :-)

For the backplanes, with few exceptions, pin nQm2 (where n is the slot #, Q
is C or D, m is A-V, in the DEC alphabet) is wired only to pin (n+1)Qm1 -
i.e. pin Qm1 is not wired through to all slots. In other words, the CD bus is
not carried _through_ a slot, only _between_ slots.

The PMI bus on the CPU is only wired to the top (i.e. 1) pins. So if you plug
a PMI CPU into a normal Q22/CD backplane, the only slot that receives the PMI
signals is the slot _before_ the CPU. Hence the requirement to plug memory
cards in _before_ the CPU when using a Q22/CD backplane for PMI.

The 11/84 backplane is different; per the backplane prints in
EK-PDP84-TM-PR2, the 1-side pins on the Q22/'CD' portion of the backplane
_are_ all bussed together.

(Note: from what I can see in the backplane prints in EK-PDP84-TM-PR2, none
of the other CD bus pins are bussed together; in particular, the staggered
connections from nCA1 to n+1CC1, nDA1 to n+1DC1, etc found in the real Qnn/CD
backplane don't seem to be there in the 11/84 backplane. So it's not _real_
Q22/CD - it's probably better to call that section of the 11/84 backplane
Q22/PMI. PMI _can_ run over a normal Q22/CD backplane, though.)


    >> Would a KDJ11-A board even work in an 11/84 backplane?

    > I meant the KDJ11-BD board or the M8190-AC.
    > ...
    > it seems reasonable to hope that the PDP-11/84 can also use the
    > KDJ11-BD instead of the KDJ11-BF

Ah. My guess (having not looked at the 8190-AC in detail) is that to the
extent the M8190-AC implements PMI, it should work fine in an 11/84.

	Noel

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Sun Feb  8 09:13:02 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 15:13:02 +0000
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150208112054.GB14680@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>
 <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150208112054.GB14680@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <54D77CFE.8040507@dunnington.plus.com>

On 08/02/2015 11:20, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Brent Hilpert wrote:

>> No you didn't. While the context of the discussion is testing and that may have been your intention, your comment specified no such qualification, and as such at best left it ambiguous/unclear.
>> Pete's comment was valid clarification and additional information (although I could have minor quibbles with some of the technical phrasing).
>
> You are simply wrong.

Ooh, somebody's still grumpy today.  Not me though, I'm writing this 
with a smile on my face :-)

> I'm answered in a thread reagarding a fault in a
> clock circuit of an PDP11 Processor Board, not in a discussion regarding
> the design of a new board with TTL cicuits.

Yet it will sit in the archive for years and since the message itself 
says nothing about that, it could easily be taken out of context by 
someone who knows less than you, I, or Brent.  Moreover, it doesn't 
always work as a reliable test, simply because there /are/ circumstances 
where letting an input float will sufficiently change the operating 
characteristics.

> Besides of that Petes sentence "TTL is supposed to have a 1K pullup (to
> limit possible transients); LSTTL can be directly connected to Vcc." above
> is plain wrong too.
> Direct me to a datasheet containing this please.

No, you're wrong.  Try looking in the Texas Instruments TTL Data Book; 
in the Fifth European Edition, it's clearly described on pages 5-4 to 
5-5.  It's also mentioned in chapter 3 of my 1971 edition of the Texas 
Instruments book "Designing with TTL Integrated Circuits", published by 
McGraw-Hill, which also has a lot to say about switching speeds, DC and 
AC noise margins, and noise rejection.  You might also care to read 
Chapter 9 especially section 9.06 "Some comments about logic inputs" in 
"Horowitz & Hill "The Art of Electronics" (one of the standard 
textbooks) culminating in their analysis of unused TTL inputs left open, 
and hence having /zero/ noise margin.

-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 11:21:26 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 11:21:26 -0600
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D675BD.4090504@sydex.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net> <54D66B4C.1010302@gmail.com>
 <54D675BD.4090504@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54D79B16.8040007@gmail.com>

On 02/07/2015 02:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/07/2015 11:45 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>
>> They didn't have a 7809 regulator, which is what I actually went there
>> for on the offchance they had one...
>
> I'd be surprised if they did, even in the old days.  How much call is there
> for a 9 volt positive linear regulator?

Perhaps not much, although I was surprised that they even had 7805's and 
7812's. There was a variable regulator (most likely the LM317 that Dave 
mentioned) - but I think they wanted close to $5 for that, and I had a 
feeling that put it more into "wait until I'm next ordering components 
online" territory.

> One of the bargains, if you can use it, is the wire-wrap tool about the
> size of a large jeweler's screwdriver.  An end cap pops off to reveal an
> AWG 30 wire stripper.  I think I found one at about $7.00 there.

Yes, it's mainly the DIY circuit fabrication/repair things that I want to 
keep an eye on - their breadboards were rather expensive, but some of the 
tools and bare PCBs might be worth getting in a few weeks if the prices 
drop a little more.

I might load up on D-sub connectors and DIL IC sockets, too.

cheers

Jules


From charles at uniwho.com  Sun Feb  8 11:24:06 2015
From: charles at uniwho.com (Charles)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 12:24:06 -0500
Subject: Radio Shack
In-Reply-To: <54D79B16.8040007@gmail.com>
References: <54D3D0E2.2030902@snarc.net> <03c001d04182$32c8aab0$985a0010$@net>
 <20150205143213.V29257@shell.lmi.net> <54D66B4C.1010302@gmail.com>
 <54D675BD.4090504@sydex.com> <54D79B16.8040007@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <693D5F2C-3826-40DF-837B-78633872ED26@uniwho.com>

Alright well i am heading to Radio Shack, See what kind of deals i can find. :)

Charles



On Feb 8, 2015, at 12:21 PM, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 02/07/2015 02:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> On 02/07/2015 11:45 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>> 
>>> They didn't have a 7809 regulator, which is what I actually went there
>>> for on the offchance they had one...
>> 
>> I'd be surprised if they did, even in the old days.  How much call is there
>> for a 9 volt positive linear regulator?
> 
> Perhaps not much, although I was surprised that they even had 7805's and 7812's. There was a variable regulator (most likely the LM317 that Dave mentioned) - but I think they wanted close to $5 for that, and I had a feeling that put it more into "wait until I'm next ordering components online" territory.
> 
>> One of the bargains, if you can use it, is the wire-wrap tool about the
>> size of a large jeweler's screwdriver.  An end cap pops off to reveal an
>> AWG 30 wire stripper.  I think I found one at about $7.00 there.
> 
> Yes, it's mainly the DIY circuit fabrication/repair things that I want to keep an eye on - their breadboards were rather expensive, but some of the tools and bare PCBs might be worth getting in a few weeks if the prices drop a little more.
> 
> I might load up on D-sub connectors and DIL IC sockets, too.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Jules
> 


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 13:38:02 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 13:38:02 -0600
Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
In-Reply-To: <14A6942F65D.00000968n0body.h0me@inbox.com>
References: <54d63ebe.4060802@bluewin.ch>
 <14A6942F65D.00000968n0body.h0me@inbox.com>
Message-ID: <54D7BB1A.8080606@gmail.com>

On 02/08/2015 02:07 AM, N0body H0me wrote:
>> Oh dear! Mentioning values like that on the BBC is not going to make it
>> any easier for the genuine enthusiasts, who don't collect for the
>> monetary value.
>>
>
> Actually, it's been a bitch for quite some time now; lots of guys with
> deep pockets driving up prices on machines we could get for very little
> money back in the day.

To be honest, the arrival of Ebay (whatever year that was, a long time ago 
anyway) was where I saw the turning point being - prior to that it was 
great fun finding this stuff, chasing up possible leads, and having a good 
old chat with the owners. People were generally in it for the purposes of 
finding homes for items and saving them from landfill.

These days people are more inclined to see what sort of prices *some* 
examples of what they have are fetching on ebay (with the inevitable 
auction feeding-frenzy driving the numbers up) and equate that with market 
value.

> grit my teeth if I have to pay the occasional premium for a part I
> need to get something working.

I find that a bit frustrating - when it came to "common" systems, I always 
kept a few basket-case parts machines around for the purposes of not only 
keeping my own "good" machines going, but also to help out others, and I 
remember when plenty of other collectors were doing the same.

I get the impression those days are gone though, and that sourcing small 
bits and pieces via the likes of ebay (where there's a chance that I'm 
dealing with someone who is destroying viable restoration machines) is the 
only way now.

> It's still interesting, but it hasn't been cheap in a long time.

One of my issues is that this stuff isn't going to stay running forever - 
no matter how well it's looked after, ICs and storage media will fail. It's 
a shame that it can't be enjoyed simply and cheaply now, and only treated 
as some kind of expensive antique when it's no longer functional.

cheers

Jules


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb  8 13:46:35 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 19:46:35 +0000
Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
In-Reply-To: <019901d0438a$0c916f30$25b44d90$@gmail.com>
References: <54D63EBE.4060802@bluewin.ch>
 <54D699D6.7070401@btinternet.com>, <019901d0438a$0c916f30$25b44d90$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3907@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> 
> Working BBC-B's seem rare. Spetrums less so but as both (Really)only interest UK collectors I can't seem them
> ever fetching mega mucks.

Are they? I find working Beebs crawling out of the woodwork. Now some of the add-ons are a bit harder to
find (32016 2nd processor, ARM development system), as are things like the ACW and ABC.

My thought is that machines that people used when younger (Beebs, Spectrums, etc) will suffer price increases
due to nostalgia value. More interesting machines that nobody really remembers will not. This has certainly
happened in telephone collecting where a Bakelite 300 series telephone is worth a lot more than a Planset, the 
latter being much more interesting technically. I suspect that, say, a Mac128 will be more valuable than an
HP9816, but I know which I would rather have on the bench... 

-tony

From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Feb  8 14:58:21 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 21:58:21 +0100
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <54D77CFE.8040507@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>
 <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150208112054.GB14680@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <54D77CFE.8040507@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <20150208205821.GC26896@beast.freibergnet.de>

Pete Turnbull wrote:

> On 08/02/2015 11:20, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >Brent Hilpert wrote:
> 
> >>No you didn't. While the context of the discussion is testing and that 
> >>may have been your intention, your comment specified no such 
> >>qualification, and as such at best left it ambiguous/unclear.
> >>Pete's comment was valid clarification and additional information 
> >>(although I could have minor quibbles with some of the technical 
> >>phrasing).
> >
> >You are simply wrong.
> 
> Ooh, somebody's still grumpy today.  Not me though, I'm writing this 
> with a smile on my face :-)
> 
> >I'm answered in a thread reagarding a fault in a
> >clock circuit of an PDP11 Processor Board, not in a discussion regarding
> >the design of a new board with TTL cicuits.
> 
> Yet it will sit in the archive for years and since the message itself 
> says nothing about that, it could easily be taken out of context by 
> someone who knows less than you, I, or Brent.  Moreover, it doesn't 
> always work as a reliable test, simply because there /are/ circumstances 
> where letting an input float will sufficiently change the operating 
> characteristics.
> 
> >Besides of that Petes sentence "TTL is supposed to have a 1K pullup (to
> >limit possible transients); LSTTL can be directly connected to Vcc." above
> >is plain wrong too.
> >Direct me to a datasheet containing this please.
> 
> No, you're wrong.  Try looking in the Texas Instruments TTL Data Book; 
> in the Fifth European Edition, it's clearly described on pages 5-4 to 
> 5-5.  It's also mentioned in chapter 3 of my 1971 edition of the Texas 
> Instruments book "Designing with TTL Integrated Circuits", published by 
> McGraw-Hill, which also has a lot to say about switching speeds, DC and 
> AC noise margins, and noise rejection.  You might also care to read 
> Chapter 9 especially section 9.06 "Some comments about logic inputs" in 
> "Horowitz & Hill "The Art of Electronics" (one of the standard 
> textbooks) culminating in their analysis of unused TTL inputs left open, 
> and hence having /zero/ noise margin.
> 
> -- 
> Pete
> 
> Pete Turnbull

Pete I'm not a natural english speaker as you know, and it really isn't
easy for me the express what I think "between the lines".
If you think it should be easy, we could try it the other way around, in
german.

It is clear that TTL inputs should'nt be left open floating in a proper
designed circuit, but all considerations of that fact are related to
noise pulled up on these open inputs, a fact that is in the context above
simply irrelevant.
An 74S240 has to read an open Input as H in the same way it has to read it
trough a 1 K Resistor or directly connected to VCC.
It has to read it as high as long as the input voltage is above 0.8V.
(the switch point has to be somewhere between 0.8 and 2.4 Volts to be
exact)

Right?

That is the only thing that is relevant for Noels testing purposes and that
is how I meant the hint. You simply pulled what I wrote out of the context.

If you really wanted to say something then don't piss on my feet, simply
explain that in a real cicuit the inputs should be pulled high with an
pullup resistor to prevent noise pickup. This where te right way, not hat
what you've done.

Since the Inputs are emitters (as you for sure know) there is no real
difference between LS TTL directly connected to VCC and Standarad, H or S
TTL connected trough a resistor. It is electrically the same since there is
no current flowing out of the emitter.

Nevertheless I'll try to read what you've mentioned above.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From spacewar at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 15:55:12 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 14:55:12 -0700
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTROjNmVZTZksUz-LYVwKz1pjpH7CciNh9oZsXQVTE1C+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 12:44 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> You don't ned no pullup for +5. All open TTL inputs are reading High w/o
> any pullup.

That's partially correct for "real" TTL, but not for an CMOS "TTL",
such as 74HC, HCT, AC, ACT, FC, FCT, BCT, LVC, etc.  In other words,
partially correct for "plain" 74xxx, 74L, 74H, 74S, 74LS, 74AS, 74ALS,
74F, but not many of the other "TTL" families which are actually CMOS.

The reason I say "partially" is that an open TTL input has very poor
noise immunity. From a DC perspective it is pulled high, but in
practice noise pulses can easily be coupled into it.  It has always
been considered poor practices to leave TTL inputs open.  And
*extremely* poor practice for CMOS.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 16:41:04 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 15:41:04 -0700
Subject: 11/45 hack?
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRacLvsm=oKeRk29i7ByU6NnPgY+=nJ=dd=dp+Gw+0g8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:
>   I'm going to duck after asking this, but would it be at all feasible to
> rewire the main 11/45 backplane to get rid of the weird voltages in those
> bipolar slots so they'd accommodate normal boards like these?

It's not just "weird voltages". Slots 17-20 and 22-25 are Fastbus, not
Unibus, so they're not
usable for *anything* except 11/45 fastbus memory.  Slots 16 and 21,
for the Fastbus
memory controllers, do have Unibus, but I haven't verified that the
pinouts match normal
Unibus slots. They definitely are NOT wired for SPC use.

Fastbus memory could be either:

   MS11-B (MOS)
       M8110 memory control
       G401 or G401-YA MOS memory matrix

   MS11-A or -C (bipolar)
       M8120 memory control (M8110 in early versions)
       M121A-YA bipolar memory, 4K, parity
       M8111 bipolar memory, 1K
       M8111-YA  bipolar memory, 1K, parity

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 16:44:32 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 15:44:32 -0700
Subject: 11/45 hack?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuOMiTELhSp=sVygr0cda+movF9uvJu9DC5j7Gxe0GTkOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36CE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CACwhfuMcksVOeivLow3KqEisb_Udenz8ZxF_buVqi4b_LQXSKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDdyNrZNNcQbo3RacCkJaAq24hATi225f1wu5sP-Oe4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMGCg3bn0+k-ErFK_uSOnnxQ4Zhur2oP1vu56oW=visbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDWfKHaxTOL91UN=YYQA=0V6Re_jJHNgn1DKDkGeQP0+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuOMiTELhSp=sVygr0cda+movF9uvJu9DC5j7Gxe0GTkOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQWcfodV_g_A-=p3R9jyh6PTvX94XcgOa3HVcA1iKuFYw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 2:16 AM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
> Think of the bipolar as very fast extra memory. It can sort of act like a
> cache memory, and can help with processor throughput.

Only if software is carefully written to use it that way. The hardware
doesn't use it in any way similar to a cache.  It's just a memory
region that happens to be fast.

> I thought there were
> 2 controller boards and 4 G401s, but one is better than none. You can check
> that on the top of the processor box in the module chart.

Depends on how much Fastbus memory you have.  There's a controller in
slot 16 for memory modules in 17-20, and optionally a second
controller in slot 21 for modules in 22-25.  There's no interleaving,
so you only need the second controller when you have five or more
memory modules.

From mokuba at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 16:53:35 2015
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 17:53:35 -0500
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>

+1-410-734-6804

New hobby thing. ;)

Wildcat! 4 running on it, stock out of box config. If you don't see all the
menus except for help and send to sysop, wait till I validate users. When I
get back home i'll set it to give non-validated users more permissions,
though.

-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG

From mikew at thecomputervalet.com  Sun Feb  8 17:03:57 2015
From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 17:03:57 -0600
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>

You running this on a genuine land-line or something else?

Cheers,

Mike Whalen

> On Feb 8, 2015, at 4:53 PM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> +1-410-734-6804
> 
> New hobby thing. ;)
> 
> Wildcat! 4 running on it, stock out of box config. If you don't see all the
> menus except for help and send to sysop, wait till I validate users. When I
> get back home i'll set it to give non-validated users more permissions,
> though.
> 
> -- 
> Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
> KB3HAG

From mokuba at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 17:12:43 2015
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 18:12:43 -0500
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>

POTS all the way to the CO.

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Mike Whalen <mikew at thecomputervalet.com>
wrote:

> You running this on a genuine land-line or something else?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike Whalen
>
> > On Feb 8, 2015, at 4:53 PM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > +1-410-734-6804
> >
> > New hobby thing. ;)
> >
> > Wildcat! 4 running on it, stock out of box config. If you don't see all
> the
> > menus except for help and send to sysop, wait till I validate users.
> When I
> > get back home i'll set it to give non-validated users more permissions,
> > though.
> >
> > --
> > Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
> > KB3HAG
>



-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG

From mokuba at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 17:13:09 2015
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 18:13:09 -0500
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>

IBM PS/2 Model 70 - blue lightning, so the 486 instead of the 386, with 8MB
of ram and a 160MB ESDI harddrive. :)

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:

> POTS all the way to the CO.
>
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Mike Whalen <mikew at thecomputervalet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> You running this on a genuine land-line or something else?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Mike Whalen
>>
>> > On Feb 8, 2015, at 4:53 PM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > +1-410-734-6804
>> >
>> > New hobby thing. ;)
>> >
>> > Wildcat! 4 running on it, stock out of box config. If you don't see all
>> the
>> > menus except for help and send to sysop, wait till I validate users.
>> When I
>> > get back home i'll set it to give non-validated users more permissions,
>> > though.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
>> > KB3HAG
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
> KB3HAG
>



-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb  8 17:40:40 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 15:40:40 -0800
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D7F3F8.3090100@sydex.com>

On 02/08/2015 03:12 PM, Gary Sparkes wrote:
> POTS all the way to the CO.

Hmmm, given the number of people who no longer *have* a landline, how 
well does a modem work with cell connection?

56K?  28.8K?  19.2K?...

--Chuck



From mikew at thecomputervalet.com  Sun Feb  8 18:13:38 2015
From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 18:13:38 -0600
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <54D7F3F8.3090100@sydex.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D7F3F8.3090100@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <7A194430-DEA7-454C-9078-B9A02453477B@thecomputervalet.com>

I've seen people get 28.8 on NetTalk DUO. 

Cheers,

Mike Whalen

> On Feb 8, 2015, at 5:40 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 02/08/2015 03:12 PM, Gary Sparkes wrote:
>> POTS all the way to the CO.
> 
> Hmmm, given the number of people who no longer *have* a landline, how well does a modem work with cell connection?
> 
> 56K?  28.8K?  19.2K?...
> 
> --Chuck
> 
> 

From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au  Sun Feb  8 18:50:32 2015
From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 10:50:32 +1000
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
Message-ID: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>

I am wondering if there were any magnetic tape filesystem?

I know that some micro you could give a name to your data/program on the
audio cassette and they had a catalogue feature

I also know about Linear Tape File System (LTFS)

Has anyone tried putting cp/m or fat filesystem on audio cassette?

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun Feb  8 19:16:23 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 17:16:23 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <D1FDA598-34A6-4283-89CC-7B6747171FB1@nf6x.net>

This may not be close enough to what you're looking for, but DEC put the RT11 filesystem on TU58 tapes. They could be used just like very slow floppies. The tape drive took care of locating logical blocks on the tape, essentially providing a block type device to the computer.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb  8 19:18:15 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 17:18:15 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <54D80AD7.6040505@sydex.com>

On 02/08/2015 04:50 PM, Tom Sparks wrote:
> I am wondering if there were any magnetic tape filesystem?
>
> I know that some micro you could give a name to your data/program on the
> audio cassette and they had a catalogue feature
>
> I also know about Linear Tape File System (LTFS)
>
> Has anyone tried putting cp/m or fat filesystem on audio cassette?


Magtape filesystems have been around since the 1950s at least, and 
possibly the 50s.  "ANSI tape labels" not only define file names, but 
all of the other information you'd expect (system, creation date, file 
name, etc.).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape_label

Problem arose when micro- and mini-computer software developers didn't 
realize that a standard had existed for years.  Some mini makers did 
implement them, but by no means all.

--Chuck


From jws at jwsss.com  Sun Feb  8 19:19:23 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 17:19:23 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <54D80B1B.7010009@jwsss.com>


On 2/8/2015 4:50 PM, Tom Sparks wrote:
> I am wondering if there were any magnetic tape filesystem?
>
> I know that some micro you could give a name to your data/program on the
> audio cassette and they had a catalogue feature
>
> I also know about Linear Tape File System (LTFS)
>
> Has anyone tried putting cp/m or fat filesystem on audio cassette?
>
>
I am sure you are thinking for tapes in smaller computers, but the 
Univac III originally had only UniServo tape drives, and used tapes for 
the OS.  All tapes written had the OS written on the front end of the tape.

There were several variants of the OS until disk units were added, and 
then the production run ended.

Most tape sets were written with specific jobs as the target, and the 
tapes had instruction decks added after the OS portion to control the 
run of the job.  However most of the tapes had the OS written at the 
front of the tape, since many operations required rereading the OS in 
various incarnations, and no single tape was tied up being the tape that 
did all the OS reads.

Systems would have many drives.  I believe the one I have has 6 or 8 
drives, as an example in addition to using punched card for input.

thanks
Jim

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Sun Feb  8 19:21:46 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 19:21:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <C1D4ABD3-E133-4FB9-AA95-8FDDC1CFF7C9@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <20150207164746.7062218C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <C1D4ABD3-E133-4FB9-AA95-8FDDC1CFF7C9@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502081907340.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Sat, 7 Feb 2015, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> On 2015-Feb-07, at 8:47 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>> From: Tothwolf
>>
>>> Before I forget again, did you check for +5V on pin 1 (enable) when 
>>> you were testing your existing oscillator?
>>
>> Wow. Never thought to try that. Then again, I don't look for +5V on 
>> your average 74xxx when I'm debugging, either! :-) I mean, it's a 
>> trace, the solder on the pin looks good, that's as far as I go, 
>> usually! And there's nothing shown as connected to that pin on the 
>> circuit diagram.
>>
>> So I looked, and... it's at ground (or floating). The only pin that has 
>> anything is 14, at +5V (expected). But I looked online for some 
>> datasheets for similar oscillators, and some of them say 'pin 1 - N/C'. 
>> Are yours tri-state? (That's the enable pin on the tri-state ones.)
>>
>> I suppose even if yours are tri-state, I can still use them; a quick 
>> ohmmeter check shows that pin 1 isn't connected to either power or 
>> ground, so I can probably tie it high (via a resistor, which in 
>> addition to being normal practise, will prevent a major disaster in 
>> case I'm confused - a state I'm often in :-).
>
> You shouldn't need to do anything regarding pin 1, (this) datasheet 
> indicates they (the FOX F5C-2 series) have an internal pull-up R on pin 
> 1, so the output should be active by default.
>
> http://www.datasheets360.com/pdf/8636385546948709069

I checked 4 of the F5C-2 parts at random, and measured ~95k-96k between 
pin 1 and pin 14 (vcc) and infinite resistance (or at least off the scale 
on my Fluke DMM) between pin 1 and pin 7 (gnd). I guess that means they do 
indeed have some sort of internal pull-up resistor, but it certainly isn't 
much of one. OTOH, that makes sense since a larger value pull-up would 
limit current draw if you ground pin 1 to disable the oscillator.

> As your fault description sounds like it could be stuck in tri-state, 
> you could try an experiment with your existing osc. and pull pin 1 high 
> through an R to see if it activates, on the small probability the 
> internal fault is loss of that internal R.

This does make me wonder even more what may have gone wrong in Noel's 
oscillator. I am familiar with some of these type of oscillators (and 
crystals) growing tin whiskers inside their cans, and I'm really starting 
to wonder if that's what caused that oscillator to fail.

> I have one 13.824 unit I was going to offer but Tothwolf has lots of 
> them, so all the better there. They are a baud-rate generator frequency 
> for the standard (300..9600..19200...) baud rate series as well as the 
> 14400..57600.. series. Could probably be found in some 90s-era modems.

That makes sense. I'm almost 100% certain these parts did indeed come from 
an auction of a company that designed ASIC parts for modems (POTS, leased 
line, and ISDN) that closed one of their R&D labs in the 90s. I know for 
sure I still have some prototype 9600 and maybe even some 14400 modems 
that came along with the parts cabinets I bought.

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sun Feb  8 19:28:00 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 17:28:00 -0800
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <54D7F3F8.3090100@sydex.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D7F3F8.3090100@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CB4A2C9B-2B96-4DB6-9A66-E1178EFC2959@fozztexx.com>


On Feb 8, 2015, at 3:40 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> Hmmm, given the number of people who no longer *have* a landline, how well does a modem work with cell connection?

I have had absolutely no luck at all getting a modem to work through a cell phone. Not even at 300 baud. No problem doing 33.6 over a VoIP connection, but modems just won?t work with a cell phone. Not by patching in through the headphone jack, not through an acoustic coupler, nothing.

I have a standing challenge on the RetroBattlestations community (retrobattlestations.com) that if someone can demonstrate getting a modem to work through a cell phone I?ll send them an entire set of retro stickers. http://imgur.com/a/iAS5T

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com


From mokuba at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 19:37:12 2015
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 20:37:12 -0500
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <CB4A2C9B-2B96-4DB6-9A66-E1178EFC2959@fozztexx.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D7F3F8.3090100@sydex.com>
 <CB4A2C9B-2B96-4DB6-9A66-E1178EFC2959@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh5-KRO_1_1RpWYoDhQfC9eOXd3KpLRpuDLYCdJ0bX03dg@mail.gmail.com>

I have got to tinker with my arduinos more :P

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 8:28 PM, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:

>
> On Feb 8, 2015, at 3:40 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>
> > Hmmm, given the number of people who no longer *have* a landline, how
> well does a modem work with cell connection?
>
> I have had absolutely no luck at all getting a modem to work through a
> cell phone. Not even at 300 baud. No problem doing 33.6 over a VoIP
> connection, but modems just won?t work with a cell phone. Not by patching
> in through the headphone jack, not through an acoustic coupler, nothing.
>
> I have a standing challenge on the RetroBattlestations community (
> retrobattlestations.com) that if someone can demonstrate getting a modem
> to work through a cell phone I?ll send them an entire set of retro
> stickers. http://imgur.com/a/iAS5T
>
> --
> Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
> Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
>
>


-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 19:50:54 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 19:50:54 -0600
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D80AD7.6040505@sydex.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D80AD7.6040505@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54D8127E.5030606@gmail.com>

On 02/08/2015 07:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Magtape filesystems have been around since the 1950s at least, and possibly
> the 50s.

Wasn't there at least one which used good ol' VHS video tape as the storage 
medium? And by good, I mean bad.



From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb  8 20:02:16 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 18:02:16 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D80B1B.7010009@jwsss.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D80B1B.7010009@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <54D81528.1070007@sydex.com>

Disks and drums were a luxury on old systems; there were many versions 
of tape-only operating system.  Even S/360 had TOS.

Anyone know of a port of IBSYS or FMS to  modern gear?

One of the problems of using tape as a working medium is that, with a 
few exceptions, rewriting of data in place can be problematical. (with 
tape speed variations, you aren't guaranteed that overwriting a block on 
tape will occupy the same amount of tape as the old one.

So you're essentially limited to skipping to a filemark, then creating a 
new end of information by writing after that.

However, many mainframe systems automatically archived inactive files to 
tape, retrieving them back to disk when requested.  There were tape 
robots for regular 10.5" reels, as well as interesting mechanisms for 
storing data on special tapes, e.g. IBM 3850, 2321.

Archive and a few other PC QIC-based systems allowed for block overwrite 
and could simulate a disk, albeit pretty slowly.

And then there's the Exatron Stringy Floppy.

--Chuck

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb  8 20:03:21 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 18:03:21 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D8127E.5030606@gmail.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D80AD7.6040505@sydex.com>
 <54D8127E.5030606@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D81569.6010101@sydex.com>

On 02/08/2015 05:50 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
> On 02/08/2015 07:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> Magtape filesystems have been around since the 1950s at least, and
>> possibly
>> the 50s.
>
> Wasn't there at least one which used good ol' VHS video tape as the
> storage medium? And by good, I mean bad.

Yeah, I had one of those--just an ISA card with some connectors.  It was 
S-L-O-W and not terribly reliable.  I don't recall who made it.

--Chuck



From cctalk at fahimi.net  Sun Feb  8 20:18:08 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 18:18:08 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D81569.6010101@sydex.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D80AD7.6040505@sydex.com>
 <54D8127E.5030606@gmail.com> <54D81569.6010101@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <000301d0440e$a6cf2a90$f46d7fb0$@net>

> Yeah, I had one of those--just an ISA card with some connectors.  It
> was S-L-O-W and not terribly reliable.  I don't recall who made it.
> 
> --Chuck

I remember reading a review of one back in the day. They were slow but
didn't they have massive (for then) capacity. Something like 1GB? I actually
saw a controller on sale on eBay a while back but it didn't have any SW do I
passed on it. It would have been cool to play with it if it was complete.

-Ali


From jws at jwsss.com  Sun Feb  8 20:28:33 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 18:28:33 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D81569.6010101@sydex.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D80AD7.6040505@sydex.com>
 <54D8127E.5030606@gmail.com> <54D81569.6010101@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54D81B51.2000703@jwsss.com>


On 2/8/2015 6:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/08/2015 05:50 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>> On 02/08/2015 07:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>> Magtape filesystems have been around since the 1950s at least, and
>>> possibly
>>> the 50s.
>>
>> Wasn't there at least one which used good ol' VHS video tape as the
>> storage medium? And by good, I mean bad.
>
> Yeah, I had one of those--just an ISA card with some connectors. It 
> was S-L-O-W and not terribly reliable.  I don't recall who made it.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
Alpha Micro made a card that did backups to VHS.

Corvus had a thing called the bank, and I think they also had a gizmo to 
do the tape backup to video tape.  The Bank device was just a product 
they did for whatever reason.

I have a case of Bank tapes somewhere and a backup device.  The 
interface was a Corvus network connection.

Jim

From jws at jwsss.com  Sun Feb  8 20:54:06 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 18:54:06 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D81B51.2000703@jwsss.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D80AD7.6040505@sydex.com>
 <54D8127E.5030606@gmail.com> <54D81569.6010101@sydex.com>
 <54D81B51.2000703@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <54D8214E.5030301@jwsss.com>


On 2/8/2015 6:28 PM, jwsmobile wrote:
>
> On 2/8/2015 6:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> On 02/08/2015 05:50 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>>> On 02/08/2015 07:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>>> Magtape filesystems have been around since the 1950s at least, and
>>>> possibly
>>>> the 50s.
>>>
>>> Wasn't there at least one which used good ol' VHS video tape as the
>>> storage medium? And by good, I mean bad.
>>
>> Yeah, I had one of those--just an ISA card with some connectors. It 
>> was S-L-O-W and not terribly reliable.  I don't recall who made it.
>>
>> --Chuck
>>
>>
>>
> Alpha Micro made a card that did backups to VHS.
>
> Corvus had a thing called the bank, and I think they also had a gizmo 
> to do the tape backup to video tape.  The Bank device was just a 
> product they did for whatever reason.
>
> I have a case of Bank tapes somewhere and a backup device.  The 
> interface was a Corvus network connection.
>
> Jim
>
>
Following up with a link to some book with a reference about AMOS tape 
backup:

https://books.google.com/books?id=F-Y0wdIIucgC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=alpha+micro+tape+backup&source=bl&ots=_nIdK-gVGt&sig=UumslEVY2al_ArQrqWt8Zo2deXk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-B_YVKf9CY7xoATU0IHgAg&ved=0CHkQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=alpha%20micro%20tape%20backup&f=false

Not sure how to get this mangled mess thru to people from the google 
books link, but here is the search and the book reference:

alpha micro tape backup

"Encyclopedia of Microcomputers: Volume 1 - Access Methods to Assembly 
Language and Assemblers",  Allen Kent, James G. Williams October 1, 1987

http://www.crcpress.com/product/isbn/9780824727000

And a monument to the ridiculous way that books are priced, CRC 
publishing wants $306.90US for a copy.

thanks
Jim

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sun Feb  8 21:12:10 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 19:12:10 -0800
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150208112054.GB14680@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>
 <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150208112054.GB14680@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <E82CB6D2-0C47-4A61-870C-AE7B8B59A8D6@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-08, at 3:20 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> On 2015-Feb-07, at 11:20 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>>> Pete Turnbull wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 06/02/2015 07:44, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>>>>> You don't ned no pullup for +5. All open TTL inputs are reading High w/o
>>>>> any pullup.
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah.  So someone at Commodore thought when they designed one version of 
>>>> the PET.  We had a few that erratically misbehaved.  It turned out that 
>>>> one input on a 74LS00 (I think it was) was floating, and switching noise 
>>>> made it erratic.  Floating inputs place the internal circuitry in an 
>>>> intermediate state, can cause increased current draw, typically slow the 
>>>> device down by increasing switching times, and can cause misbehaviour.
>>>> 
>>>> TTL is supposed to have a 1K pullup (to limit possible transients); 
>>>> LSTTL can be directly connected to Vcc.
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Pete
>>>> 
>>>> Pete Turnbull
>>> 
>>> Yes Pete, not all People over here are totally braindead.
>>> 
>>> I've told him that he can leave out the +5V Connection for testing
>>> purposes, for nothing other.
>> 
>> No you didn't. While the context of the discussion is testing and that may have been your intention, your comment specified no such qualification, and as such at best left it ambiguous/unclear.
>> Pete's comment was valid clarification and additional information (although I could have minor quibbles with some of the technical phrasing).
> 
> You are simply wrong.

>  I'm answered in a thread reagarding a fault in a
> clock circuit of an PDP11 Processor Board, not in a discussion regarding
> the design of a new board with TTL cicuits.

Pete clarified your potentially misleading statement. He wasn't "pissing on your feet".

Sometimes Holm, attempts at redemption just result in digging yourself in deeper.


> Besides of that Petes sentence "TTL is supposed to have a 1K pullup (to
> limit possible transients); LSTTL can be directly connected to Vcc." above
> is plain wrong too.
> Direct me to a datasheet containing this please.

You are wrong, Pete is correct.

This was discussed on the list in 2014 October.
Quoting myself quoting Fairchild and TI databooks:

		This is addressed in, for example, the characteristics and design treatises at the beginning of Fairchild TTL databooks.
		(from the 1978 version):

			"For a permanent high signal, unused inputs can be tied to Vcc.

			A current limiting resistor, in the range of 1K to 5K, is recommended for emitter-type inputs since these break down
			at some unspecified voltage over 5.5V and power supply misadjustment or malfunction can cause damage unless
			current is limited.

			.. diode-type LS-TTL inputs have breakdown voltages above 15V and thus protective resistors are not normally required."

		===

		Here's a quote from TI, mentioning the same 5.5V extreme as Fairchild, but not providing the explanation:

		From "TTL Integrated Circuits Catalog from Texas Instruments" / 1 Aug 1969:

				"Unused inputs of AND and NAND gates and unused preset and clear inputs of flip-flops:

					Tie directly to +Vcc where Vcc is guaranteed to *always* be <= 5.5V;   (emphasis TI's)
				or
					Tie to Vcc through resistor >= 1Kohms. Several unused inputs may be tied to one resistor;
				or
					Tie to unused input of same gate if maximum fan-out of driving device will not be exceeded;
				or
					Tie to unused gate output where unused gate input is grounded.
				"

Would you like photos of the appropriate pages?
Certified copies couriered on overnight express to your front door?


From mokuba at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 21:22:20 2015
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 22:22:20 -0500
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh5-KRO_1_1RpWYoDhQfC9eOXd3KpLRpuDLYCdJ0bX03dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D7F3F8.3090100@sydex.com>
 <CB4A2C9B-2B96-4DB6-9A66-E1178EFC2959@fozztexx.com>
 <CAH5WRh5-KRO_1_1RpWYoDhQfC9eOXd3KpLRpuDLYCdJ0bX03dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh4+Jy9QZm49TTXCRoaxpgNW2GUBpbWw_REcdcsnruQvYw@mail.gmail.com>

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=9805C9C8F4699B!112200&authkey=!ADQsq6axE6MFKKg&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg

The setup. ;)

Two ram sticks modified by soldering iron to make the MPD lines compatable
with this. it wants 2MB 80ns... 2MB 85ns modified seems to work ;)

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 8:37 PM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have got to tinker with my arduinos more :P
>
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 8:28 PM, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Feb 8, 2015, at 3:40 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hmmm, given the number of people who no longer *have* a landline, how
>> well does a modem work with cell connection?
>>
>> I have had absolutely no luck at all getting a modem to work through a
>> cell phone. Not even at 300 baud. No problem doing 33.6 over a VoIP
>> connection, but modems just won?t work with a cell phone. Not by patching
>> in through the headphone jack, not through an acoustic coupler, nothing.
>>
>> I have a standing challenge on the RetroBattlestations community (
>> retrobattlestations.com) that if someone can demonstrate getting a modem
>> to work through a cell phone I?ll send them an entire set of retro
>> stickers. http://imgur.com/a/iAS5T
>>
>> --
>> Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
>> Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
> KB3HAG
>



-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG

From useddec at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 22:40:03 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 22:40:03 -0600
Subject: 11/45 hack?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQWcfodV_g_A-=p3R9jyh6PTvX94XcgOa3HVcA1iKuFYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36CE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CACwhfuMcksVOeivLow3KqEisb_Udenz8ZxF_buVqi4b_LQXSKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDdyNrZNNcQbo3RacCkJaAq24hATi225f1wu5sP-Oe4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMGCg3bn0+k-ErFK_uSOnnxQ4Zhur2oP1vu56oW=visbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDWfKHaxTOL91UN=YYQA=0V6Re_jJHNgn1DKDkGeQP0+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuOMiTELhSp=sVygr0cda+movF9uvJu9DC5j7Gxe0GTkOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTQWcfodV_g_A-=p3R9jyh6PTvX94XcgOa3HVcA1iKuFYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuM4BhB=D9HS-=tSJzxGEhr0e0eNyPKdScw_CiC8xwJPxg@mail.gmail.com>

What I was trying to say is that it's not part of the 128 kw or 256 kb
limit of the 45 and is fast.

I don't recall being able to have 2 sets of it. I don't think I've seen one
since I left DEC in the late 70s, but thanks for clearing that up.

Paul

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 2:16 AM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Think of the bipolar as very fast extra memory. It can sort of act like a
> > cache memory, and can help with processor throughput.
>
> Only if software is carefully written to use it that way. The hardware
> doesn't use it in any way similar to a cache.  It's just a memory
> region that happens to be fast.
>
> > I thought there were
> > 2 controller boards and 4 G401s, but one is better than none. You can
> check
> > that on the top of the processor box in the module chart.
>
> Depends on how much Fastbus memory you have.  There's a controller in
> slot 16 for memory modules in 17-20, and optionally a second
> controller in slot 21 for modules in 22-25.  There's no interleaving,
> so you only need the second controller when you have five or more
> memory modules.
>

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb  8 23:23:47 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 05:23:47 +0000
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B39DD@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

>
> Has anyone tried putting cp/m or fat filesystem on audio cassette?

Do the Epson PX8 (and I assume PX4) count? They used a microcassette as a CP/M
mass storage device.

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb  8 23:29:27 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 05:29:27 +0000
Subject: 11/45 hack?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuM4BhB=D9HS-=tSJzxGEhr0e0eNyPKdScw_CiC8xwJPxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36CE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CACwhfuMcksVOeivLow3KqEisb_Udenz8ZxF_buVqi4b_LQXSKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDdyNrZNNcQbo3RacCkJaAq24hATi225f1wu5sP-Oe4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMGCg3bn0+k-ErFK_uSOnnxQ4Zhur2oP1vu56oW=visbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDWfKHaxTOL91UN=YYQA=0V6Re_jJHNgn1DKDkGeQP0+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuOMiTELhSp=sVygr0cda+movF9uvJu9DC5j7Gxe0GTkOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTQWcfodV_g_A-=p3R9jyh6PTvX94XcgOa3HVcA1iKuFYw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CACwhfuM4BhB=D9HS-=tSJzxGEhr0e0eNyPKdScw_CiC8xwJPxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3A07@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> What I was trying to say is that it's not part of the 128 kw or 256 kb
> limit of the 45 and is fast.

Are you sure about that? If it doesn't appear in the Unibus address space, how do 
you access it?

-tony

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 23:51:25 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 22:51:25 -0700
Subject: 11/45 hack?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuM4BhB=D9HS-=tSJzxGEhr0e0eNyPKdScw_CiC8xwJPxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfA7u+6QcJ-=pwh4c4kSsCz3ZSRSzjX-49FC_1DKi_WwcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B36CE@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CACwhfuMcksVOeivLow3KqEisb_Udenz8ZxF_buVqi4b_LQXSKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDdyNrZNNcQbo3RacCkJaAq24hATi225f1wu5sP-Oe4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMGCg3bn0+k-ErFK_uSOnnxQ4Zhur2oP1vu56oW=visbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDWfKHaxTOL91UN=YYQA=0V6Re_jJHNgn1DKDkGeQP0+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuOMiTELhSp=sVygr0cda+movF9uvJu9DC5j7Gxe0GTkOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTQWcfodV_g_A-=p3R9jyh6PTvX94XcgOa3HVcA1iKuFYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuM4BhB=D9HS-=tSJzxGEhr0e0eNyPKdScw_CiC8xwJPxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTacdAhQ9-SYS7n7c4_Q=nA+vsoD-xXAn+v7Q6wMpPgtw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 9:40 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
> What I was trying to say is that it's not part of the 128 kw or 256 kb
> limit of the 45 and is fast.

The 11/45 (or 11/50, 11/55) Fastbus memory, whether MOS or bipolar, is
not directly on either Unibus, but it *IS* in the normal address space
of the machine, taking up an address range that is not then usable for
Unibus memory.  As far as the software can tell, it is just a memory
region that happens to be faster than typical Unibus memory.

The 11/45 (etc.) hardware doesn't perform any magic that makes it
behave in any way differently than normal PDP-11 memory, aside from
the faster speed.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 00:00:03 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 23:00:03 -0700
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRjCxgh4vcHhPOMumMo4Mi+=QOAEM_yKgdyPufn8_UH6g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Tom Sparks <tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> I am wondering if there were any magnetic tape filesystem?
[by which you presumably mean true random-access tape, rather than
e.g. 9-track which is normally append-only]

Yes.  Obvious examples are DECtape/LINCtape.  Different operating
systems used different file systems, but they generally appeared to
software as a small, slow disk.

> Has anyone tried putting cp/m or fat filesystem on audio cassette?

Most instances of tape file systems I've ever dealt with used a file
system specifically designed for efficiency on tape.  For instance,
the TOPS-10 DECtape filesystem normally used every nth block for a
file, rather than consecutive blocks. This is somewhat like sector
interleave, except that it's done at the filesystem level rather than
being hidden by either hardware or a low-level block device driver.

Some members of the 6502 Group (established 1975, still meeting
weekly) developed the XPL0 programming language (similar to ALGOL and
BCPL), and an operating system partially written in XPL0, called TFS
("Tape File System") for use on homebrew or Digital Group 6502-based
systems with digital cassette drives.  TFS eventually evolved into FFS
("Floppy File System"), and then APEX, which was sold for use on the
Apple II by Apparat (better known for NewDOS/80).

From g-wright at att.net  Mon Feb  9 00:06:52 2015
From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 22:06:52 -0800
Subject: RA-81 issues
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS7679B73F2772CB39CF41C86260@phx.gbl>
References: <1423252466.33748.YahooMailNeo@web185303.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <54D526EA.60108@update.uu.se>
 <1423257685.1015.YahooMailNeo@web185306.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <DUB110-DS7679B73F2772CB39CF41C86260@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1423462012.90806.YahooMailNeo@web185302.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Well to sum it all up,  long term project. started last summer so re-capping
what was done then and now.  All of the RA-81's  Look to have bad Tack 

sensors. I don't have a working one to try.   Thanks, Kevin for the input

helps confirm what I have been seeing.

The cable on the right is for the belt tension. The brake is part of the motor
most likely electric  I would guess.

The service manual has the wiring wrong on the tack plug so be careful.

The print set for these on Bitsavers is missing pages that cover the Read/
Write board which is part of the tack system.

If anyone has a complete copy of the print set or knows where one is ??

Please let me Know.

Thanks,  Jerry




On Sunday, February 8, 2015 1:42 AM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
 


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Jerry Wright 
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2015 10:21 PM 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: RA-81 issues 

well now I feel real dumb.  I was looking for the  drive locks
and could only find the head lock.  Now I know the cable on 
the right is *not* for belt tension.  Thanks all

Henk, Is your 11/60 running

- Jerry    



Hi Jerry,
the 11/60 is running - sort of ... The console works,
so the CPU is OK. But store/examine memory location
seem to indicates stuck bit(s)  :-/
I just finished moving the collection to a 2150 sq. ft room
and found out that *many* systems need TLC.
The 11/60 is just one in the queue! I also want to work
on the website, but time flies ...

greetz,

- Henk

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 00:10:41 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 01:10:41 -0500
Subject: xylogics 650 manual
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfDy72QX3s6LDDNRatRE+KLeqJA+rUMT6_90CE=nL3ejfA@mail.gmail.com>

Hola,
  According to this thread from BITD (
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/1999-July/1414.html ), I have what
appears to be a Xylogics 650 sitting here in anti-static wrap, glistening
like brand new.  Anyone have a manual?  Tried replying to Dan, but no dice..

thx
jake

From wilson at dbit.com  Mon Feb  9 00:28:23 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 01:28:23 -0500
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <20150209062823.GA22183@dbit.dbit.com>

On Mon, Feb 09, 2015 at 10:50:32AM +1000, Tom Sparks wrote:
>I am wondering if there were any magnetic tape filesystem?

I have a vague memory of hearing about something (one of the Unices maybe?
although handling tapes well is WAY out of character for them) that would
attempt to use 9-track tapes as block-replaceable media.  Which I think
meant using the "erase" command to add 3" of nothing after each block so
that you had at least some chance of rewriting that block w/o trashing what
comes after (this would cause a huge cut in capacity, but maybe I'm
misremembering the whole thing).  I've never seen this in person though,
and I'm a little surprised that it would work (maybe only on certain
drives?).

And as others have said, that's on top of intentionally block-replaceable
tapes like DECtapes (which act like disks), and file systems that accept
the tapiness of it all like ANSI or DOS-11 or CAPS-11 or OS-labeled tapes
(where you can write a fresh tail onto the tape from anywhere but you'd
better have a plan).  And almost everybody's got something like BRU or
:DUMP or SAVRES or tar which can store/retrieve archives of disk files on
tape -- but that's not the same as accessing tape files through the OS's
usual disk-file API.

John Wilson
D Bit

From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au  Mon Feb  9 00:54:50 2015
From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 17:54:50 +1100
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <A1073321-ACE5-4CB7-91CA-CE5B19D817C7@kerberos.davies.net.au>


> On 9 Feb 2015, at 11:50 am, Tom Sparks <tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> 
> I am wondering if there were any magnetic tape filesystem?

CAPS-11 comes to mind :-)

I had to use it once and it made RT-11 on 8? floppies seem quick and it was slow compared to our DECsystem-10 even with 60 users...

Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne            | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia            | air, the sky would be painted green" 


From scaron at umich.edu  Sun Feb  8 11:30:07 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 12:30:07 -0500
Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
In-Reply-To: <14A6942F65D.00000968n0body.h0me@inbox.com>
References: <54d63ebe.4060802@bluewin.ch>
 <001201d0431b$37208340$a56189c0$@ntlworld.com>
 <14A6942F65D.00000968n0body.h0me@inbox.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkXKxpHUaSv+bjYs-08c=S-YufrvoCgQLNKhc-DDv+VR2A@mail.gmail.com>

+1. I'm mostly coasting on what I have left from what I accumulated back in
high school, this stuff is just so expensive now (aside, eternal thanks to
Bob R. for helping me to get a Q-bus VAX or two back in the fold).

I suppose that's the nature of many hobbies... Probably why most fads are
cyclical, LOL.

Best,

Sean

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:07 AM, N0body H0me <n0body.h0me at inbox.com> wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com
> > Sent: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 21:15:36 -0000
> > To: jdr_use at bluewin.ch, cctalk at classiccmp.org, classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> > Subject: RE: Classic computing goes mainstream....
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos
> >> Dreesen
> >> Sent: 07 February 2015 16:35
> >> To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> >> Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Even the BBC is reporting  : http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31188257
> >>
> >> Wil we see a flood of speccies and BBC-B ?
> >>
> >> Jos
> >
> > Oh dear! Mentioning values like that on the BBC is not going to make it
> > any easier for the genuine enthusiasts, who don't collect for the
> > monetary value.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Rob
>
> Actually, it's been a bitch for quite some time now; lots of guys with
> deep pockets driving up prices on machines we could get for very little
> money back in the day.
>
> But that's old news; this dynamic occurs in many instances where you have
> a small, niche interest that's embraced later by a larger (and more well-
> heeled) crowd.
>
> I just hold on to the few treasures I have from that period (and before),
> and grit my teeth if I have to pay the occasional premium for a part I
> need to get something working.
>
> That's just the way it is.  On occasion, I will sell a part to someone
> who needs it; some kind folks on this forum and elsewhere have done the
> same for me.
>
> Yeah, I own a couple of items that could conceivably be considered
> 'Investment Grade', but that's not why I still own them. I don't
> buy much anymore; I just wanted to participate in a cheap but interesting
> hobby.  It's still interesting, but it hasn't been cheap in a long time.
>
> Regards,
>
> N0body
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> FREE ONLINE PHOTOSHARING - Share your photos online with your friends and
> family!
> Visit http://www.inbox.com/photosharing to find out more!
>
>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Sun Feb  8 17:44:22 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 18:44:22 -0500
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>

Cool! Wish I could call but I haven't had a POTS line for years. I gather
they're more expensive than they used to be ...? What do they charge you
for just a POTS line these days?

I wish I still had my 9595, I would have it running Synchronet on OS/2 in
no time!

Ever thought of adding a second line and putting it up on the C*Net
http://www.ckts.info? :O Then I could try to give you a call.

Best,

Sean


On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:13 PM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:

> IBM PS/2 Model 70 - blue lightning, so the 486 instead of the 386, with 8MB
> of ram and a 160MB ESDI harddrive. :)
>
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > POTS all the way to the CO.
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Mike Whalen <mikew at thecomputervalet.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> You running this on a genuine land-line or something else?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Mike Whalen
> >>
> >> > On Feb 8, 2015, at 4:53 PM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > +1-410-734-6804
> >> >
> >> > New hobby thing. ;)
> >> >
> >> > Wildcat! 4 running on it, stock out of box config. If you don't see
> all
> >> the
> >> > menus except for help and send to sysop, wait till I validate users.
> >> When I
> >> > get back home i'll set it to give non-validated users more
> permissions,
> >> > though.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
> >> > KB3HAG
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
> > KB3HAG
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
> KB3HAG
>

From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au  Mon Feb  9 01:44:31 2015
From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 17:44:31 +1000
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRjCxgh4vcHhPOMumMo4Mi+=QOAEM_yKgdyPufn8_UH6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
 <CAFrGgTRjCxgh4vcHhPOMumMo4Mi+=QOAEM_yKgdyPufn8_UH6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D8655F.10409@yahoo.com.au>

On 09/02/15 16:00, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Tom Sparks <tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> I am wondering if there were any magnetic tape filesystem?
> [by which you presumably mean true random-access tape, rather than
> e.g. 9-track which is normally append-only]
> 
> Yes.  Obvious examples are DECtape/LINCtape.  Different operating
> systems used different file systems, but they generally appeared to
> software as a small, slow disk.
> 
>> Has anyone tried putting cp/m or fat filesystem on audio cassette?
> 

> Some members of the 6502 Group (established 1975, still meeting
> weekly) developed the XPL0 programming language (similar to ALGOL and
> BCPL), and an operating system partially written in XPL0, called TFS
> ("Tape File System") for use on homebrew or Digital Group 6502-based
> systems with digital cassette drives.  TFS eventually evolved into FFS
> ("Floppy File System"), and then APEX, which was sold for use on the
> Apple II by Apparat (better known for NewDOS/80).
> 
I think I found what you are talking about at
http://bytecollector.com/dg_phideck.htm

tom

From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 02:09:08 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 01:09:08 -0700
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D8655F.10409@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
 <CAFrGgTRjCxgh4vcHhPOMumMo4Mi+=QOAEM_yKgdyPufn8_UH6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D8655F.10409@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQZSVghrNRgp5vUfNr4ZitgQ0gsH9eUgoVYn4_pOEOv8Q@mail.gmail.com>

I wrote:
>> Some members of the 6502 Group (established 1975, still meeting
>> weekly) developed the XPL0 programming language (similar to ALGOL and
>> BCPL), and an operating system partially written in XPL0, called TFS
>> ("Tape File System") for use on homebrew or Digital Group 6502-based
>> systems with digital cassette drives.  TFS eventually evolved into FFS
>> ("Floppy File System"), and then APEX, which was sold for use on the
>> Apple II by Apparat (better known for NewDOS/80).

Tom Sparks <tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> I think I found what you are talking about at
> http://bytecollector.com/dg_phideck.htm

Actually not.  While some 6502 Group members did use Digital Group
6502 systems, the majority of the FFS work was done with surplus
digital tape drives with bit-banged manchester encoding, not with
Phideck transports or the Digital Group GCR controller.

I've never heard of anyone writing a 6502 or 6800 operating system for
the Digital Group Phideck subsystem.  There was Phimon for the 8080,
which of course would also run on the Z80.

I was in junior high at the time, and couldn't afford a computer of my
own of any sort, though I drooled over the Digital Group brochures. In
the late 1990s I purchased a used Digital Group Z80 system with a
Phideck subsystem, and a 6502 Group member gave me his Digital Group
6501 (not 6502!) CPU card.  (It was the Digital Group 6800 CPU card
with a MCS6501 installed; I don't know whether the Digital Group
originally sold it that way, or whether my friend replaced the CPU
chip and reprogrammed the 1702 monitor EPROM.)  It might be
interesting to try to get Apex to use the Phideck subsystem, but in
general I have better or at least more interesting things to do in my
"copious free time".

From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Feb  9 02:11:39 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 09:11:39 +0100
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTROjNmVZTZksUz-LYVwKz1pjpH7CciNh9oZsXQVTE1C+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAFrGgTROjNmVZTZksUz-LYVwKz1pjpH7CciNh9oZsXQVTE1C+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150209081139.GA89656@beast.freibergnet.de>

Eric Smith wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 12:44 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> > You don't ned no pullup for +5. All open TTL inputs are reading High w/o
> > any pullup.
> 
> That's partially correct for "real" TTL, but not for an CMOS "TTL",
> such as 74HC, HCT, AC, ACT, FC, FCT, BCT, LVC, etc.  In other words,
> partially correct for "plain" 74xxx, 74L, 74H, 74S, 74LS, 74AS, 74ALS,
> 74F, but not many of the other "TTL" families which are actually CMOS.
> 
> The reason I say "partially" is that an open TTL input has very poor
> noise immunity. From a DC perspective it is pulled high, but in
> practice noise pulses can easily be coupled into it.  It has always
> been considered poor practices to leave TTL inputs open.  And
> *extremely* poor practice for CMOS.

Whow. All this is related to an FOX Crytall Oscillator driving a 74S240 on
a M8186 Board?

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Feb  9 02:16:39 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 09:16:39 +0100
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <E82CB6D2-0C47-4A61-870C-AE7B8B59A8D6@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>
 <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150208112054.GB14680@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <E82CB6D2-0C47-4A61-870C-AE7B8B59A8D6@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <20150209081639.GB89656@beast.freibergnet.de>

Brent Hilpert wrote:
[..]
> 
> Pete clarified your potentially misleading statement. He wasn't "pissing on your feet".
> 
> Sometimes Holm, attempts at redemption just result in digging yourself in deeper.

Soso.
I wrote a statement to how exactly test an 74S240, Pete and you wrote
other, in this casenot interesting things.

It seems that the sentence "all was already sayd, but not from me" fits
well here.

The sentences from TI are right and known to me, bute none of them applies
for a functional check of exactly the 74S240 on the M8186 board.
Connecting the input of the 74S240 wit an R to Vcc to check the High pegel
is simply nonsense.


Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb  9 02:36:45 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 00:36:45 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQZSVghrNRgp5vUfNr4ZitgQ0gsH9eUgoVYn4_pOEOv8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
 <CAFrGgTRjCxgh4vcHhPOMumMo4Mi+=QOAEM_yKgdyPufn8_UH6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D8655F.10409@yahoo.com.au>
 <CAFrGgTQZSVghrNRgp5vUfNr4ZitgQ0gsH9eUgoVYn4_pOEOv8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D8719D.2060208@sydex.com>

TI 99/4A initially presented the "wafertape" as an option 
(block-addressable-continuous loop).

And, as mentioned, the stringy floppy, somewhat similar to the later 
wafertape and somewhat popular with the TRS-80 Model 1 crowd.

The Coleco ADAM used a block-addressable tape, but I don't know what the 
read-after-write capability of the HE format tapes was.

There's no reason that a 7- or 9-track tape could not be used as a 
random-access device, provided an adequate IRG was allowed for.

Implementing read/write random-access filesystems on tape presents some 
significant issues.

The first is the read-after-write physical block length problem, already 
discussed.

The second is that extending files gets to be really interesting, unless 
file extensions get appended to the end-of-information point.

The third is that it's pretty much impossible to deal gracefully with 
tape block flaws that develop some time after the block has been 
written.  In particular, the usual 9-track method of erasing over the 
bad spot and then writing a new block would create a problem by 
overwriting already-written data.

Streamer drives are singularly awkward (although as I mentioned, one of 
the QIC vendors implemented a "virtual disk" system for the PC (Archive, 
Seagate...I don't recall).  Looking at the HP 35480 DDS OEM manual shows 
that the drive has to construct a new group from old data as well as 
new, write a temporary copy, then back up and attempt to rewrite the old 
data with the new.  Ugly stuff.

--Chuck


From cctalk at fahimi.net  Mon Feb  9 03:25:32 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 01:25:32 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D8719D.2060208@sydex.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
 <CAFrGgTRjCxgh4vcHhPOMumMo4Mi+=QOAEM_yKgdyPufn8_UH6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D8655F.10409@yahoo.com.au>
 <CAFrGgTQZSVghrNRgp5vUfNr4ZitgQ0gsH9eUgoVYn4_pOEOv8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D8719D.2060208@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <001701d0444a$5c0f2730$142d7590$@net>

> Streamer drives are singularly awkward (although as I mentioned, one of
> the QIC vendors implemented a "virtual disk" system for the PC
> (Archive, Seagate...I don't recall

There were a couple of solutions for the PC:

1. Direct Tape Access by Seagate (which was later sold off to VERITAS). If I recall correctly this was a Windows only solution and worked under win 3.x/Win 95. There never was an update for Win98 and on.

2. TapeDisk - This worked under DOS (was a DOS device driver) and so continued to work, with updates, through Win Me. The publishers were perpetually going to offer a Win2K/NT version which never materialized and the company finally went bankrupt.

3. DATMan - Was limited to DAT drives so never gained any traction (if you could even say the above SW had traction). This is made by the same guys as XXCopy and I think they are still around.

I am sure I am missing a few here and there. I used both DTA and TapeDisk. DTA was easier and more "elegant" but never updated. I switched over to TapeDisk when I got a Conner/Seagate T-Stor 8000 4GB of "Random Access" Whoohoo! ;) 

-Ali



From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Feb  9 04:28:10 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 11:28:10 +0100
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <54D88BBA.5060901@update.uu.se>

ANSI?

	Johnny

On 2015-02-09 01:50, Tom Sparks wrote:
> I am wondering if there were any magnetic tape filesystem?
>
> I know that some micro you could give a name to your data/program on the
> audio cassette and they had a catalogue feature
>
> I also know about Linear Tape File System (LTFS)
>
> Has anyone tried putting cp/m or fat filesystem on audio cassette?
>


-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Feb  9 04:29:59 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 11:29:59 +0100
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <D1FDA598-34A6-4283-89CC-7B6747171FB1@nf6x.net>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
 <D1FDA598-34A6-4283-89CC-7B6747171FB1@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <54D88C27.6020708@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-09 02:16, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> This may not be close enough to what you're looking for, but DEC put the RT11 filesystem on TU58 tapes. They could be used just like very slow floppies. The tape drive took care of locating logical blocks on the tape, essentially providing a block type device to the computer.

Very different.

The TU58 behaves like a disk, not a tape.

Anyway, ANSI is a "file system" for tapes. A "normal" file system will 
be very hard, since that would require the ability to rewrite existing 
blocks in the middle of the tape, which is a scary thing to try.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 05:18:49 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 11:18:49 -0000
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D8719D.2060208@sydex.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
 <CAFrGgTRjCxgh4vcHhPOMumMo4Mi+=QOAEM_yKgdyPufn8_UH6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D8655F.10409@yahoo.com.au>
 <CAFrGgTQZSVghrNRgp5vUfNr4ZitgQ0gsH9eUgoVYn4_pOEOv8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D8719D.2060208@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <057a01d0445a$2ddb5a40$89920ec0$@gmail.com>

The Sinclair QL which was also sold as the ICL One Per Desk also had a serial tape type media  the ZX MicroDrive?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Microdrive

Dave
G4UGM

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
> Guzis
> Sent: 09 February 2015 08:37
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Magnetic tape filesystem
> 
> TI 99/4A initially presented the "wafertape" as an option (block-addressable-
> continuous loop).
> 
> And, as mentioned, the stringy floppy, somewhat similar to the later
> wafertape and somewhat popular with the TRS-80 Model 1 crowd.
> 
> The Coleco ADAM used a block-addressable tape, but I don't know what the
> read-after-write capability of the HE format tapes was.
> 
> There's no reason that a 7- or 9-track tape could not be used as a random-
> access device, provided an adequate IRG was allowed for.
> 
> Implementing read/write random-access filesystems on tape presents some
> significant issues.
> 
> The first is the read-after-write physical block length problem, already
> discussed.
> 
> The second is that extending files gets to be really interesting, unless file
> extensions get appended to the end-of-information point.
> 
> The third is that it's pretty much impossible to deal gracefully with tape block
> flaws that develop some time after the block has been written.  In particular,
> the usual 9-track method of erasing over the bad spot and then writing a new
> block would create a problem by overwriting already-written data.
> 
> Streamer drives are singularly awkward (although as I mentioned, one of the
> QIC vendors implemented a "virtual disk" system for the PC (Archive,
> Seagate...I don't recall).  Looking at the HP 35480 DDS OEM manual shows
> that the drive has to construct a new group from old data as well as new,
> write a temporary copy, then back up and attempt to rewrite the old data
> with the new.  Ugly stuff.
> 
> --Chuck



From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Mon Feb  9 05:51:42 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 11:51:42 +0000
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D8127E.5030606@gmail.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D80AD7.6040505@sydex.com>
 <54D8127E.5030606@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150209115142.GA22974@mooli.org.uk>

On Sun, Feb 08, 2015 at 07:50:54PM -0600, Jules Richardson wrote:
[...]
> Wasn't there at least one which used good ol' VHS video tape as the storage
> medium? And by good, I mean bad.

For the Amiga, there was the "Video Backup System":

http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=1456

It was an "ingenious" hack in that it generated a monochrome video signal that
was a valid(-ish) serial stream could be hard-clipped and fed back in through
the serial port. I've never seen it work successfully though.

In a similar vein of misusing the interpretation of signals to produce cute
effects, I offer this which I discovered last night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1ylMJwfLmM

Now, there are a number of vector demos which run on oscilloscopes in X-Y mode,
but that one is a bit more special than most in that it's not just some
beam-drawing plus some random music, but a reasonable chiptune that can *also*
be fed into a scope to do vector graphics.

Non-compressed audio can be downloaded from here:

http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=58317

... although I couldn't discern any real difference on my scope between that
and the Vorbis-compressed audio in the Youtube video.


From mokuba at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 06:31:40 2015
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 07:31:40 -0500
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh7uEJ_MjxSc=vBmpkBE24in1AvZ2tRozVu70_LYTLU9CQ@mail.gmail.com>

~$50/mo unlimited all the things.

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> Cool! Wish I could call but I haven't had a POTS line for years. I gather
> they're more expensive than they used to be ...? What do they charge you
> for just a POTS line these days?
>
> I wish I still had my 9595, I would have it running Synchronet on OS/2 in
> no time!
>
> Ever thought of adding a second line and putting it up on the C*Net
> http://www.ckts.info? :O Then I could try to give you a call.
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:13 PM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > IBM PS/2 Model 70 - blue lightning, so the 486 instead of the 386, with
> 8MB
> > of ram and a 160MB ESDI harddrive. :)
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > POTS all the way to the CO.
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Mike Whalen <
> mikew at thecomputervalet.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> You running this on a genuine land-line or something else?
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >>
> > >> Mike Whalen
> > >>
> > >> > On Feb 8, 2015, at 4:53 PM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > +1-410-734-6804
> > >> >
> > >> > New hobby thing. ;)
> > >> >
> > >> > Wildcat! 4 running on it, stock out of box config. If you don't see
> > all
> > >> the
> > >> > menus except for help and send to sysop, wait till I validate users.
> > >> When I
> > >> > get back home i'll set it to give non-validated users more
> > permissions,
> > >> > though.
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
> > >> > KB3HAG
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
> > > KB3HAG
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
> > KB3HAG
> >
>



-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb  9 06:38:42 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  9 Feb 2015 07:38:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11/45 hack?
Message-ID: <20150209123842.1A5E718C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Paul Anderson

    > it's not part of the 128 kw or 256 kb limit of the 45

Err, don't think so - that limit is in the addressing hardware in the CPU
as well as in the UNIBUS.

    > From: Eric Smith

    > The 11/45 (or 11/50, 11/55) Fastbus memory, whether MOS or bipolar, is
    > not directly on either Unibus

Actually, my understanding is that it is on UNIBUS B (or 2), via a second port
to the memory; see this post:

  http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-February/003460.html

which gave my understanding of how it works. And of course if you connect the
two UNIBI together, it's therefore directly on UNIBUS A (or 1), as well. I.e.
DMA devices can do transfers to/from it.

	Noel

From snhirsch at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 06:40:55 2015
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 07:40:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D81B51.2000703@jwsss.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D80AD7.6040505@sydex.com>
 <54D8127E.5030606@gmail.com> <54D81569.6010101@sydex.com>
 <54D81B51.2000703@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502090731540.5108@z87>

On Sun, 8 Feb 2015, jwsmobile wrote:

> Alpha Micro made a card that did backups to VHS.

I had one of those for ISA bus.  Sellam bought it from me about ten years 
ago.  Hope it didn't end up with the vultures who cleaned out his storage 
building.

> Corvus had a thing called the bank, and I think they also had a gizmo to do 
> the tape backup to video tape.  The Bank device was just a product they did 
> for whatever reason.

> I have a case of Bank tapes somewhere and a backup device.  The interface was 
> a Corvus network connection.

The Bank used an oddball proprietary cartridge that operated in a 
continuous loop like an 8-track tape.

I have three working (last time I checked) Bank drives and a number of 
100MB capacity tapes.  They also made a 200MB tape, but I've never been 
able to get my hands on one.

A friend of mine once claimed that the Bank tape and transport was 
originally designed by Akai as their entry into the VCR market.  If true, 
this would be the first analog video format I've ever heard of that 
switched tracks at the end the loop :-).


-- 

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Feb  9 09:18:49 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 07:18:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502090718280.25996@deltasoft.com>

On Sun, 8 Feb 2015, Gary Sparkes wrote:

> +1-410-734-6804
>
> New hobby thing. ;)
>
> Wildcat! 4 running on it, stock out of box config. If you don't see all the
> menus except for help and send to sysop, wait till I validate users. When I
> get back home i'll set it to give non-validated users more permissions,
> though.
>
>
Congrats Gary!  Are you running that via VOIP or POTS?

g.
-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From leec2124 at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 09:29:15 2015
From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 07:29:15 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502090731540.5108@z87>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D80AD7.6040505@sydex.com>
 <54D8127E.5030606@gmail.com> <54D81569.6010101@sydex.com>
 <54D81B51.2000703@jwsss.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502090731540.5108@z87>
Message-ID: <CAG_uPVHPS6N+j9JJONa=uZgcj+D5ivYnW_5UfOoh-K_B+9y63w@mail.gmail.com>

The MCM/70, an 8008 based APL machine released in late 1974, used dual
cassette drives as mass storage and swapping device. An amazing engineering
feat for the time and technology. Worked well, albeit s-l-o-w-l-y.

http://www.cse.yorku.ca/~zbigniew/mcm_add.html

Lee Courtney

On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 4:40 AM, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 8 Feb 2015, jwsmobile wrote:
>
>  Alpha Micro made a card that did backups to VHS.
>>
>
> I had one of those for ISA bus.  Sellam bought it from me about ten years
> ago.  Hope it didn't end up with the vultures who cleaned out his storage
> building.
>
>  Corvus had a thing called the bank, and I think they also had a gizmo to
>> do the tape backup to video tape.  The Bank device was just a product they
>> did for whatever reason.
>>
>
>  I have a case of Bank tapes somewhere and a backup device.  The interface
>> was a Corvus network connection.
>>
>
> The Bank used an oddball proprietary cartridge that operated in a
> continuous loop like an 8-track tape.
>
> I have three working (last time I checked) Bank drives and a number of
> 100MB capacity tapes.  They also made a 200MB tape, but I've never been
> able to get my hands on one.
>
> A friend of mine once claimed that the Bank tape and transport was
> originally designed by Akai as their entry into the VCR market.  If true,
> this would be the first analog video format I've ever heard of that
> switched tracks at the end the loop :-).
>
>
> --
>



-- 
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell

From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon Feb  9 09:37:40 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 09:37:40 -0600
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <54D8D444.20500@pico-systems.com>

On 02/08/2015 06:50 PM, Tom Sparks wrote:
> I am wondering if there were any magnetic tape filesystem?
>
> I know that some micro you could give a name to your data/program on the
> audio cassette and they had a catalogue feature
>
> I also know about Linear Tape File System (LTFS)
>
> Has anyone tried putting cp/m or fat filesystem on audio cassette?
>
I had 9-track 800 BPI mag tape on my CP/M system, almost 
entirely software-driven.
I used it for backup, and it made ANSI-D compatible tapes 
that could be read on
the VAX at work.

Jon

From jim at photojim.ca  Mon Feb  9 09:39:00 2015
From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 09:39:00 -0600
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <079301d0447e$868510e0$938f32a0$@photojim.ca>

VoIP lines *can* work for modems.  I have done 33.6kbps connections on Vonage in the past.  HST modems seem to work better than v.34/v.90/v.92 modems on VoIP though.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean Caron
Sent: February-08-15 5:44 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Sean Caron
Subject: Re: New BBS in Maryland

Cool! Wish I could call but I haven't had a POTS line for years. I gather they're more expensive than they used to be ...? What do they charge you for just a POTS line these days?


From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon Feb  9 09:39:40 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 09:39:40 -0600
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D8127E.5030606@gmail.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D80AD7.6040505@sydex.com>
 <54D8127E.5030606@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D8D4BC.2090307@pico-systems.com>

On 02/08/2015 07:50 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
> On 02/08/2015 07:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> Magtape filesystems have been around since the 1950s at 
>> least, and possibly
>> the 50s.
>
> Wasn't there at least one which used good ol' VHS video 
> tape as the storage medium? And by good, I mean bad.
>
>
>
I picked up a Digi-Data VHS drive with Pertec formatted 
interface at a surplus
shop.  It ALMOST worked, but was pretty clear the heads were 
badly worn.
I did a couple backups with it, then it basically just 
stopped working at all,
went to infinite retries.

Jon

From mikew at thecomputervalet.com  Mon Feb  9 09:41:04 2015
From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 09:41:04 -0600
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <079301d0447e$868510e0$938f32a0$@photojim.ca>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <079301d0447e$868510e0$938f32a0$@photojim.ca>
Message-ID: <etPan.54d8d510.6b8b4567.b6fb@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>

On February 9, 2015 at 9:39:02 AM, Jim MacKenzie (jim at photojim.ca) wrote:

VoIP lines *can* work for modems. I have done 33.6kbps connections on Vonage in the past. HST modems seem to work better than v.34/v.90/v.92 modems on VoIP though.?
Sometime I?ve always been curious about (but not enough to try it myself yet) is how SLOW can the connections go? Could you establish a 300 baud connection? 110?

Avoiding the question of WHY for them moment...


Cheers,

m

On February 9, 2015 at 9:39:02 AM, Jim MacKenzie (jim at photojim.ca) wrote:

VoIP lines *can* work for modems. I have done 33.6kbps connections on Vonage in the past. HST modems seem to work better than v.34/v.90/v.92 modems on VoIP though.  

Jim  

-----Original Message-----  
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean Caron  
Sent: February-08-15 5:44 PM  
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Sean Caron  
Subject: Re: New BBS in Maryland  

Cool! Wish I could call but I haven't had a POTS line for years. I gather they're more expensive than they used to be ...? What do they charge you for just a POTS line these days?  


From db at db.net  Mon Feb  9 09:48:39 2015
From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 10:48:39 -0500
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D8D4BC.2090307@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D80AD7.6040505@sydex.com>
 <54D8127E.5030606@gmail.com> <54D8D4BC.2090307@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <20150209154839.GA55737@night.db.net>

On Mon, Feb 09, 2015 at 09:39:40AM -0600, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/08/2015 07:50 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
> > On 02/08/2015 07:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> >> Magtape filesystems have been around since the 1950s at 
> >> least, and possibly
> >> the 50s.

I'm just surprised no one mentioned stringy floppy.

http://www.trs-80.org/exatron-stringy-floppy/

Diane
-- 
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db

From js at cimmeri.com  Mon Feb  9 09:49:16 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 10:49:16 -0500
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <54D8D6FC.1080006@cimmeri.com>



On 2/8/2015 7:50 PM, Tom Sparks wrote:
> I am wondering if there were any magnetic tape filesystem?
>
> I know that some micro you could give a name to your data/program on the
> audio cassette and they had a catalogue feature
>
> I also know about Linear Tape File System (LTFS)
>
> Has anyone tried putting cp/m or fat filesystem on audio cassette?

*This question looks to be overanswered 
by now, but the HP 9144 1/4" tape drive 
with the HP 200 or 300 series... works 
well as a boot and mass storage device 
under HP Basic.

- J.


*



From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon Feb  9 09:56:14 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 09:56:14 -0600
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <20150209062823.GA22183@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
 <20150209062823.GA22183@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <54D8D89E.6010800@pico-systems.com>

On 02/09/2015 12:28 AM, John Wilson wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 09, 2015 at 10:50:32AM +1000, Tom Sparks wrote:
>> I am wondering if there were any magnetic tape filesystem?
> I have a vague memory of hearing about something (one of the Unices maybe?
> although handling tapes well is WAY out of character for them) that would
> attempt to use 9-track tapes as block-replaceable media.  Which I think
> meant using the "erase" command to add 3" of nothing after each block so
> that you had at least some chance of rewriting that block w/o trashing what
> comes after
Hmmm, that's interesting.  At least on a lot of minicomputer 
tape controls, I THINK
this would be impossible.  There's no way to make it move 
tape with the write gate
on without generating bit clocks, which would write 
transitions on some channel
of the tape.  I'm pretty sure the DEC TM11 and similar units 
couldn't do this.  (I suppose maybe
there was such a mode in the driver/hardware that I'm 
totally unaware of.)

Some other systems may have had specific erase commands or 
options that could
alter the length of the tape gap.  In fact, I think the 
standard interrecord gap
at 800 BPI NRZI WAS 3 inches.  At 1900 BPI PE, the standard 
gap was reduced
to 0.6 inches to improve capacity.  I figured out that I 
could write tapes at
800 BPI on my CP/M system with a gap around 0.5" and other 
systems had
no problem reading them.  On those little 7" reels, you need 
to work to retain
what little capacity there was.  (No replacement of 
individual blocks was ever
attempted on that system.)

Jon

From jim at photojim.ca  Mon Feb  9 09:57:01 2015
From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 09:57:01 -0600
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <etPan.54d8d510.6b8b4567.b6fb@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <079301d0447e$868510e0$938f32a0$@photojim.ca>
 <etPan.54d8d510.6b8b4567.b6fb@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
Message-ID: <08ad01d04481$0b1e4ef0$215aecd0$@photojim.ca>

It depends somewhat on the modem, but slower speeds work well in my experience.  As long as there isn?t much packet loss, 110 and 300 bps ought to work quite well.

 

Jim

 

From: Mike Whalen [mailto:mikew at thecomputervalet.com] 
Sent: February-09-15 9:41 AM
To: Jim MacKenzie; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: New BBS in Maryland

 

On February 9, 2015 at 9:39:02 AM, Jim MacKenzie (jim at photojim.ca <mailto:jim at photojim.ca> ) wrote:

Sometime I?ve always been curious about (but not enough to try it myself yet) is how SLOW can the connections go? Could you establish a 300 baud connection? 110?

Avoiding the question of WHY for them moment...

 

Cheers,

 

m

 

On February 9, 2015 at 9:39:02 AM, Jim MacKenzie (jim at photojim.ca <mailto:jim at photojim.ca> ) wrote:

VoIP lines *can* work for modems. I have done 33.6kbps connections on Vonage in the past. HST modems seem to work better than v.34/v.90/v.92 modems on VoIP though. 

Jim 

-----Original Message----- 
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean Caron 
Sent: February-08-15 5:44 PM 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Sean Caron 
Subject: Re: New BBS in Maryland 

Cool! Wish I could call but I haven't had a POTS line for years. I gather they're more expensive than they used to be ...? What do they charge you for just a POTS line these days? 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb  9 09:57:22 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 07:57:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh7uEJ_MjxSc=vBmpkBE24in1AvZ2tRozVu70_LYTLU9CQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7uEJ_MjxSc=vBmpkBE24in1AvZ2tRozVu70_LYTLU9CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150209075236.P95090@shell.lmi.net>

> > Cool! Wish I could call but I haven't had a POTS line for years.
> > I gather they're more expensive than they used to be ...? What
> > do they charge you for just a POTS line these days?

On Mon, 9 Feb 2015, Gary Sparkes wrote:
> ~$50/mo unlimited all the things.

For AT&T POTS in Pinole,  w/ unlimited local calls and unlimited
long-distance, but ~$2 for each 411 (my mother can't seem to learn
not to):  $63 a year ago, $69 today.



From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Mon Feb  9 10:07:38 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 08:07:38 -0800
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <etPan.54d8d510.6b8b4567.b6fb@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <079301d0447e$868510e0$938f32a0$@photojim.ca>
 <etPan.54d8d510.6b8b4567.b6fb@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
Message-ID: <58097622-EAE5-459F-989B-D41D26CAD800@fozztexx.com>


On Feb 9, 2015, at 7:41 AM, Mike Whalen <mikew at thecomputervalet.com> wrote:

> Sometime I?ve always been curious about (but not enough to try it myself yet) is how SLOW can the connections go? Could you establish a 300 baud connection? 110?

I don?t have anything that does 110, but 300 with an acoustic coupler works fine:

http://youtu.be/10MzaPKdPH8 <http://youtu.be/10MzaPKdPH8>

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb  9 10:58:38 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  9 Feb 2015 11:58:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Anyone need spare 11/05 - 11/10 keys?
Message-ID: <20150209165838.7DF6C18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

I've discovered a local place that can create them, and just had one made, and
it worked fine. I'm about to go back for two more: does anyone else need
one/any? If so, please let me know (reply to me _only_, please - no need to
gunk up the list with that). They'll be $2 each, to cover costs only.

    Noel

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb  9 11:01:05 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 09:01:05 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <20150209154839.GA55737@night.db.net>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D80AD7.6040505@sydex.com>
 <54D8127E.5030606@gmail.com> <54D8D4BC.2090307@pico-systems.com>
 <20150209154839.GA55737@night.db.net>
Message-ID: <54D8E7D1.709@sydex.com>

On 02/09/2015 07:48 AM, Diane Bruce wrote:

> I'm just surprised no one mentioned stringy floppy.
>
> http://www.trs-80.org/exatron-stringy-floppy/

I did--twice.

Just didn't mention the awful poetry, as in

"I love my stringy floppy.."

 From an early Exatron newsletter.

--Chuck



From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com  Mon Feb  9 11:06:00 2015
From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 10:06:00 -0700
Subject: Answers: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150204)
Message-ID: <CAM_jms=9zBLRMb4TE--36uPivqq_rsN0K0MqT9pxm8nsczfCJg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 9:37 AM, Doug Ingraham <dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com>
wrote:

> This time lets refer to some classic fictional computers used in movies.
> Everyone probably knows about the HAL 9000 used in the movie 2001 a Space
> Odyssey.
>
> What was the name of HAL's sister computer in the movie 2010 Odyssey two?
>

SAL 9000


> That was a warm up question.  This one should be more difficult.
>
> What was the designation of the computer in the movie WarGames and what
> does it mean?
>

WOPR which stands for War Operation Plan Response.

And finally,
>
> As silly as it was the movie Hackers referred to the mainframe computer in
> the movie as a Gibson.
>
> Where did the term Gibson come from?
>

It is believed to be a reference to the author William Gibson who coined
the term Cyberpunk in his short story Burning Chrome (1982 Omni) and then
his novel Neuromancer (1984).

Hope you all enjoyed this one!


-- 
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175

From scaron at umich.edu  Mon Feb  9 11:02:16 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 12:02:16 -0500
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <58097622-EAE5-459F-989B-D41D26CAD800@fozztexx.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <079301d0447e$868510e0$938f32a0$@photojim.ca>
 <etPan.54d8d510.6b8b4567.b6fb@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <58097622-EAE5-459F-989B-D41D26CAD800@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkXM7JuR4XZA7kcHiRSkvzyNSw2sXhd1rCX_j9fqZSTNGA@mail.gmail.com>

It's all about latency and jitter. If you can keep the latency and jitter
down... and consistent... modems will actually work pretty well over VoIP
and you can sometimes pull off some fairly high data rates... If jitter on
the link is very bad, good luck, even at 300 baud.

Best,

Sean


On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 11:07 AM, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:

>
> On Feb 9, 2015, at 7:41 AM, Mike Whalen <mikew at thecomputervalet.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Sometime I?ve always been curious about (but not enough to try it myself
> yet) is how SLOW can the connections go? Could you establish a 300 baud
> connection? 110?
>
> I don?t have anything that does 110, but 300 with an acoustic coupler
> works fine:
>
> http://youtu.be/10MzaPKdPH8 <http://youtu.be/10MzaPKdPH8>
>
> --
> Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
> Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
>
>
>
>

From mikew at thecomputervalet.com  Mon Feb  9 11:18:17 2015
From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 11:18:17 -0600
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkXM7JuR4XZA7kcHiRSkvzyNSw2sXhd1rCX_j9fqZSTNGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <079301d0447e$868510e0$938f32a0$@photojim.ca>
 <etPan.54d8d510.6b8b4567.b6fb@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <58097622-EAE5-459F-989B-D41D26CAD800@fozztexx.com>
 <CAA43vkXM7JuR4XZA7kcHiRSkvzyNSw2sXhd1rCX_j9fqZSTNGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.54d8ebda.74b0dc51.b894@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>

On February 9, 2015 at 11:16:30 AM, Sean Caron (scaron at umich.edu) wrote:

It's all about latency and jitter. If you can keep the latency and jitter?
down... and consistent... modems will actually work pretty well over VoIP?
and you can sometimes pull off some fairly high data rates... If jitter on?
the link is very bad, good luck, even at 300 baud.?
Is this something usually made better by setting up QoS or traffic shaping?




Cheers,

m

From mikew at thecomputervalet.com  Mon Feb  9 11:18:17 2015
From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 11:18:17 -0600
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkXM7JuR4XZA7kcHiRSkvzyNSw2sXhd1rCX_j9fqZSTNGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <079301d0447e$868510e0$938f32a0$@photojim.ca>
 <etPan.54d8d510.6b8b4567.b6fb@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <58097622-EAE5-459F-989B-D41D26CAD800@fozztexx.com>
 <CAA43vkXM7JuR4XZA7kcHiRSkvzyNSw2sXhd1rCX_j9fqZSTNGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.54d8ebda.74b0dc51.b894@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>

On February 9, 2015 at 11:16:30 AM, Sean Caron (scaron at umich.edu) wrote:

It's all about latency and jitter. If you can keep the latency and jitter?
down... and consistent... modems will actually work pretty well over VoIP?
and you can sometimes pull off some fairly high data rates... If jitter on?
the link is very bad, good luck, even at 300 baud.?
Is this something usually made better by setting up QoS or traffic shaping?




Cheers,

m

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Mon Feb  9 11:28:01 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 09:28:01 -0800
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkXM7JuR4XZA7kcHiRSkvzyNSw2sXhd1rCX_j9fqZSTNGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <079301d0447e$868510e0$938f32a0$@photojim.ca>
 <etPan.54d8d510.6b8b4567.b6fb@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <58097622-EAE5-459F-989B-D41D26CAD800@fozztexx.com>
 <CAA43vkXM7JuR4XZA7kcHiRSkvzyNSw2sXhd1rCX_j9fqZSTNGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0D1D0FAF-A46D-4DB8-B7F4-EA37B5C4076B@fozztexx.com>


On Feb 9, 2015, at 9:02 AM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
> 
> It's all about latency and jitter. If you can keep the latency and jitter
> down... and consistent... modems will actually work pretty well over VoIP
> and you can sometimes pull off some fairly high data rates... If jitter on
> the link is very bad, good luck, even at 300 baud.

I?ve actually had a 300 baud modem connect to an audio track on a CD. A long time ago when I was working at Napa Valley College, a student brought in a CD (I have no idea what band or album) that had an extra track which was a 300 baud modem recorded on it and he wanted to know what it was. To connect it to the modem I just played the track loudly and held up the handset on a phone near the speaker. It worked because at 300 baud there?s no two-way negotiation between the modems at all.

One of these days I?ll get around to trying the same thing but uploading it as a YouTube video to see if someone else can make it connect to their modem.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com


From pete at pski.net  Mon Feb  9 11:30:05 2015
From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 12:30:05 -0500
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <0D1D0FAF-A46D-4DB8-B7F4-EA37B5C4076B@fozztexx.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <079301d0447e$868510e0$938f32a0$@photojim.ca>
 <etPan.54d8d510.6b8b4567.b6fb@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <58097622-EAE5-459F-989B-D41D26CAD800@fozztexx.com>
 <CAA43vkXM7JuR4XZA7kcHiRSkvzyNSw2sXhd1rCX_j9fqZSTNGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0D1D0FAF-A46D-4DB8-B7F4-EA37B5C4076B@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.54d8ee9d.419ac241.2b9@PetersMacBookPro>

Now you have us curious. ?So, what was on the extra track?

--?
Peter Cetinski


On February 9, 2015 at 12:28:06 PM, Chris Osborn (fozztexx at fozztexx.com) wrote:


On Feb 9, 2015, at 9:02 AM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:  
>  
> It's all about latency and jitter. If you can keep the latency and jitter  
> down... and consistent... modems will actually work pretty well over VoIP  
> and you can sometimes pull off some fairly high data rates... If jitter on  
> the link is very bad, good luck, even at 300 baud.  

I?ve actually had a 300 baud modem connect to an audio track on a CD. A long time ago when I was working at Napa Valley College, a student brought in a CD (I have no idea what band or album) that had an extra track which was a 300 baud modem recorded on it and he wanted to know what it was. To connect it to the modem I just played the track loudly and held up the handset on a phone near the speaker. It worked because at 300 baud there?s no two-way negotiation between the modems at all.  

One of these days I?ll get around to trying the same thing but uploading it as a YouTube video to see if someone else can make it connect to their modem.  

--  
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx  
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com  


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Feb  9 12:00:54 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 13:00:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <etPan.54d8ebda.74b0dc51.b894@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <079301d0447e$868510e0$938f32a0$@photojim.ca>
 <etPan.54d8d510.6b8b4567.b6fb@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <58097622-EAE5-459F-989B-D41D26CAD800@fozztexx.com>
 <CAA43vkXM7JuR4XZA7kcHiRSkvzyNSw2sXhd1rCX_j9fqZSTNGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <etPan.54d8ebda.74b0dc51.b894@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
Message-ID: <201502091800.NAA24099@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> It's all about latency and jitter.  If you can keep the latency and
> jitter down... and consistent... modems will actually work pretty
> well over VoIP and you can sometimes pull off some fairly high data
> rates... If jitter on the link is very bad, good luck, even at 300
> baud.  Is this something usually made better by setting up QoS or
> traffic shaping?

"It depends."

At the really low data rates, like 110 or 300 bps (which =baud for
those rates), there's no negotiation and it's all about consistent
latency, which means low jitter.  (Consistent high latency is better
than inconsistent low latency, for this, so crank those jitterbuffer
sizes up - jitter is really just small fast fluctuations in latency,
and the line between jitter issues and latency issues is a fuzzy one.)

At higher rates, it matters more.  The usual 1200bps, for example, is
600 baud with two bits per baud and is like 110 and 300 in that there
is no negotiation; this means that high but constant latency doesn't
disturb it and turning the jitterbuffer up to what would normally be
ridiculous levels can fix a lot.  But it takes less to disturb 1200
than it does to disturb 300 or 110; bits are smaller, after all.  A
half-second of jitterbuffer delay is enough to pretty much wreck a
voice call but all it will do to a 300 or 1200 modem call is introduce
data latency (which may or may not matter, of course).

At the rates involving ECC and negoation between the ends, it really
depends on the codec.  Most traditional modem codecs are designed to
deal with the kinds of errors typically introduced by POTS.  Errors
typically introduced by VoI are very different and traditional modem
codecs generally fall flat on their metaphorical faces when faced with
them.  Recently, modem codecs designed to deal with VoI-style errors
have been designed, though I haven't seen them make it into the field
except for the special case of faxes.  I once did some experiments with
faxes using traditional codecs and I found that, as long as you have
absolutely zero packet loss and enough jitterbuffer to deal with
latency variations, they work great, but I found even a single lost
packet can take out several dozen lines of fax data.

I don't know how sensitive traditional modem codecs are to high (but
consistent) latency.  My tests didn't involve that.

So, if your QoS or traffic shaping operates to improve latency
consistency without generating ploss, it is likely to help.  If it
introduces ploss, it is likely to hurt.  (If it does neither, I find
myself wondering what it _is_ doing. :-)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb  9 12:40:06 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 10:40:06 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <54D8FF06.8060207@sydex.com>

All this talk about magtapes brought some memories to the fore.

While a single tape drive was the rule for personal computers, it 
certainly wasn't that way for mainframes.  In particular, one very 
important aspect was sorting (and, by extension, merging).  The wonder 
of a polyphase (or better yet, oscillating) sort running on a bank of 8 
300 ips drives was mesmerizing.

The book by Ivan Flores on sorting was pretty much a bible until Don 
Knuth came out with his "Searching and Sorting" book, complete with 
fold-out charts.  That's the one out of the whole "Art" series that 
sticks in my mind.

Now, I suspect that the average programmer doesn't worry (or perhaps 
even know about) external sorting what with vast RAM and disk drives, 
but back in the day, it was fascinating.

Undoubtedly, the folks before me who spent their time shuttling trays of 
punched cards around an IBM 082 have a similar reaction to the 
"easiness" of tape sorts as compared to card sorts...


--Chuck


From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Mon Feb  9 13:00:33 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 19:00:33 +0000
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D8FF06.8060207@sydex.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
 <54D8FF06.8060207@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150209190033.GA16258@mooli.org.uk>

On Mon, Feb 09, 2015 at 10:40:06AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
[...]
> Now, I suspect that the average programmer doesn't worry (or perhaps even
> know about) external sorting what with vast RAM and disk drives,

One still needs to know about external sorts once the data is larger than RAM,
but these days it's often called "Big Data", a term which usually means "I want
to use these sledgehammers on this nut so I can add more buzzwords to my CV".

> but back in the day, it was fascinating.

JOOI, why was there such a need to sort large datasets back in the mainframe
era?


From nico at farumdata.dk  Mon Feb  9 13:03:17 2015
From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 20:03:17 +0100
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D8FF06.8060207@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <1114355800B54526BD8697530E3E2523@NOTEBOOK>

> All this talk about magtapes brought some memories to the fore.
>
> While a single tape drive was the rule for personal computers, it 
> certainly wasn't that way for mainframes.  In particular, one very 
> important aspect was sorting (and, by extension, merging).  The wonder of 
> a polyphase (or better yet, oscillating) sort running on a bank of 8 300 
> ips drives was mesmerizing.
>
> Undoubtedly, the folks before me who spent their time shuttling trays of 
> punched cards around an IBM 082 have a similar reaction to the "easiness" 
> of tape sorts as compared to card sorts...
>
I remember a regular job (every week....) in my servicebureau where I had to 
sort about 40.000 200-byte records on a DOS machine. DOS did have a SORT 
command, but it was horribly insufficient.
I therefore had to get back to my experience as IBM 82 operator (!), and do 
it more or less that way. The first stop was to create x files, each 
containing about 1000 key fields. When the input was read, I would sort one 
keyfile at a time internally and write it to a new file. After the sorting, 
I merged two indexfiles and write a new file, etc. When all indexfiles were 
merged into one, I found the respective full records, and wrote the output 
file.
It took about 15 minutes or so for the whole job, but the customer was 
happy.

/Nico 


From oltmansg at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 13:17:54 2015
From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 13:17:54 -0600
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <CB4A2C9B-2B96-4DB6-9A66-E1178EFC2959@fozztexx.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D7F3F8.3090100@sydex.com>
 <CB4A2C9B-2B96-4DB6-9A66-E1178EFC2959@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <6AFDDA8B-0518-436D-A020-038A0767B1B7@gmail.com>

Some cell phones will actually present to the computer when connected USB as a dial up modem. In the past I was able to connect at 14.4kbps with one.  It has been a while though. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 8, 2015, at 7:28 PM, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 8, 2015, at 3:40 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hmmm, given the number of people who no longer *have* a landline, how well does a modem work with cell connection?
> 
> I have had absolutely no luck at all getting a modem to work through a cell phone. Not even at 300 baud. No problem doing 33.6 over a VoIP connection, but modems just won?t work with a cell phone. Not by patching in through the headphone jack, not through an acoustic coupler, nothing.
> 
> I have a standing challenge on the RetroBattlestations community (retrobattlestations.com) that if someone can demonstrate getting a modem to work through a cell phone I?ll send them an entire set of retro stickers. http://imgur.com/a/iAS5T
> 
> --
> Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
> Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
> 

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 13:31:33 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 14:31:33 -0500
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D8FF06.8060207@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <7E4FB3956CB34D00A53CBF74073AFE01@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: <General at classiccmp.org>;
"Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: Magnetic tape filesystem


> All this talk about magtapes brought some
> memories to the fore.
>
> While a single tape drive was the rule for
> personal computers, it certainly wasn't that way
> for mainframes.  In particular, one very
> important aspect was sorting (and, by extension,
> merging).  The wonder of a polyphase (or better
> yet, oscillating) sort running on a bank of 8
> 300 ips drives was mesmerizing.
...
> Undoubtedly, the folks before me who spent their
> time shuttling trays of punched cards around an
> IBM 082 have a similar reaction to the
> "easiness" of tape sorts as compared to card
> sorts...
> --Chuck

----- Reply -----

... especially when you tripped and dropped a
stack of sorted cards on the way to the collator
or 403...

Was just leafing through documentation on using
cassettes in Burroughs L systems:

" It is possible to sort data by using 3 or 4
magnetic tape stations ...
_However, this is a slow operation and it is not
advised that magnetic tape cassettes are used in
this way._"

Sorting 900 records of 256 bytes on a 512 word
base memory machine with three drives took 1 hour,
41 minutes. Increasing memory up to 1536 words and
adding a fourth drive brought that down to a mere
55 minutes!

But these were different times where life moved
more slowly. I actually designed several systems
using four cassette drives and magnetic cards, and
one or two days every week you just set aside an
hour or two for sorting and housekeeping.

And on the other hand,:
"A cassette is easily transportable from one site
to another compared to a disk. Drop a disk on the
floor and the chances are that it can't be used
anymore."

Now, sorting using paper tape, that oughta be
fun...

m


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb  9 13:41:46 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 11:41:46 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <20150209190033.GA16258@mooli.org.uk>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D8FF06.8060207@sydex.com>
 <20150209190033.GA16258@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <54D90D7A.3060407@sydex.com>

On 02/09/2015 11:00 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:

> JOOI, why was there such a need to sort large datasets back in the mainframe
> era?

Knuth's book's title gives a hint.  He called it "Searching and 
Sorting".  The two go hand in hand.

I think the simple answer is that it's easier to search sorted data, 
particularly when said data is offline--i.e. hanging in a slot in a tape 
rack, or in a drawer in a card cabinet.  Nowadays, when everything can 
be kept online, it's probably less important than it used to be.

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb  9 13:45:20 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 11:45:20 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <7E4FB3956CB34D00A53CBF74073AFE01@310e2>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D8FF06.8060207@sydex.com>
 <7E4FB3956CB34D00A53CBF74073AFE01@310e2>
Message-ID: <54D90E50.8000801@sydex.com>

On 02/09/2015 11:31 AM, Mike Stein wrote:

>
> But these were different times where life moved
> more slowly. I actually designed several systems
> using four cassette drives and magnetic cards, and
> one or two days every week you just set aside an
> hour or two for sorting and housekeeping.

Magnetic card storage was left out of this discussion.  NCR 353 CRAM, 
anyone?  Did anyone ever write an external sort using that beast?

--Chuck



From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Mon Feb  9 13:47:27 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 19:47:27 +0000
Subject: Classic computing goes mainstream....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1502081058300.28781@typhoon>
References: <54d63ebe.4060802@bluewin.ch>
 <14A6942F65D.00000968n0body.h0me@inbox.com>
 <Pine.GSO.4.64.1502081058300.28781@typhoon>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D86162@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Erik Baigar
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:11 AM

> I am not sure what triggers e.g. that the PDP-8s and PDP-11s are so
> popular and many people interested in them (I guess 50% of all mails
> in this list are somehow related to these) where HPs, Novas, Rolms,
> Burroughs, Elliotts, ICTs etc. receive only very little attention.
> Maybe the reason is that the PDPs are easily available?

Since DEC/Digital was the second-largest computer manufacturer in the
world in the heyday of minis and mainframes, it's not surprising that
their products are still more readily available than others'.  For the
same reason, more people are familiar (to one extent or another) with
them.  The insanely high prices are because most people don't realize
that they really are common, and pay accordingly.

What's really interesting is that the products from the largest are so
much more difficult to find, due to the business model of leasing with
massive service attached vs. selling with massive documentation.

                                                                Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Feb  9 14:12:37 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 20:12:37 +0000
Subject: OT : SAB3012 datasheet wanted
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3B37@EXMBX16.thus.corp>


This is sort-of off-topic : 

Does anyone have old-ish (1980s) Philips/Mullard/Signetics data books around. I am looking for a data 
sheet (or at least a pinout) for the SAB3012 remote control receiver IC (no, I do not mean SAB3021). I can
find nothing on the web.

(It's only sort-of off-topic as the IC is used in an old Viewdata / Prestel set which I guess is classic
computing)

-tony

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Mon Feb  9 14:17:36 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 12:17:36 -0800
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <6AFDDA8B-0518-436D-A020-038A0767B1B7@gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D7F3F8.3090100@sydex.com>
 <CB4A2C9B-2B96-4DB6-9A66-E1178EFC2959@fozztexx.com>
 <6AFDDA8B-0518-436D-A020-038A0767B1B7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FDB7D3BC-9BFF-4D0C-9979-861AE4DEE9B6@fozztexx.com>


On Feb 9, 2015, at 11:17 AM, Geoff Oltmans <oltmansg at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 8, 2015, at 7:28 PM, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I have a standing challenge on the RetroBattlestations community (retrobattlestations.com) that if someone can demonstrate getting a modem to work through a cell phone I?ll send them an entire set of retro stickers. http://imgur.com/a/iAS5T
> 
> Some cell phones will actually present to the computer when connected USB as a dial up modem. In the past I was able to connect at 14.4kbps with one.  It has been a while though. 

Yes, I used to do that with my StarTac. The cell phone would respond to ATA commands and then use a modem at the telephone company to do the dialing. But using a cell phone *as* a modem doesn?t count towards the challenge of using a modem *through* a cell phone. ;-)

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au  Mon Feb  9 14:26:53 2015
From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 06:26:53 +1000
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D88C27.6020708@update.uu.se>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au>
 <D1FDA598-34A6-4283-89CC-7B6747171FB1@nf6x.net>
 <54D88C27.6020708@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <54D9180D.8070406@yahoo.com.au>

On 09/02/15 20:29, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-02-09 02:16, Mark J. Blair wrote:
>> This may not be close enough to what you're looking for, but DEC put
>> the RT11 filesystem on TU58 tapes. They could be used just like very
>> slow floppies. The tape drive took care of locating logical blocks on
>> the tape, essentially providing a block type device to the computer.
> 
> Very different.
> 
> The TU58 behaves like a disk, not a tape.
> 
> Anyway, ANSI is a "file system" for tapes. A "normal" file system will
> be very hard, since that would require the ability to rewrite existing
> blocks in the middle of the tape, which is a scary thing to try.
> 
>     Johnny
> 
that got me thinking about these Log-structured file system[1]

but all of them are too modern, I have not seen one designed for a 8-bit
CPU like the 6502 and they flash memory based :(


[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log-structured_file_system

From mazzinia at tin.it  Mon Feb  9 14:44:20 2015
From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 21:44:20 +0100
Subject: Memorex MRX IV 6250 BPI SuperReel Tape on sale - 4 reels maybe new
Message-ID: <008601d044a9$2ee5d380$8cb17a80$@tin.it>

It's not my auction, have no relations.. 

4 Reels 2 packages Memorex MRX IV 6250 BPI SuperReel Tape VAX DEC IBM Vintage

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=371253355734&category=175690&emailtemplateid=88457586&sellerid=eJGfcJBwsRKv0BwKbJXzrw==&buyerid=FpRekKD1aqBQi1AxtN2vfg==&refid=store&ssPageName=


From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 15:27:08 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 14:27:08 -0700
Subject: 11/45 hack?
In-Reply-To: <20150209123842.1A5E718C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150209123842.1A5E718C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQGNm=M_fDbBcr83xNEnWHqVT5eG1e4EDgROA1ayiZ1tQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>     > From: Eric Smith
>     > The 11/45 (or 11/50, 11/55) Fastbus memory, whether MOS or bipolar, is
>     > not directly on either Unibus
>
> Actually, my understanding is that it is on UNIBUS B (or 2), via a second port
> to the memory;

The 11/45 (etc.) semiconductor memory is on Fastbus, which is attached
to the KB11-D (or -A) CPU via a memory controller.  The memory
controller does have a Unibus port, but the Fastbus memory modules are
not on the Unibus any more than an RP04 disk drive is on the Unibus.
In both cases there's an intermediary to give the logical appearance
of a device on another bus being on the Unibus (Fastbus for the
memory, Massbus for the disk drive).

There's a block diagram of the Fastbus controller giving a high-level
overview of how this is wired in DEC drawing D-BD-MS11-0-1, in the
MS11-B MOS Memory Engineering Drawings. There's a PDF on Bitsavers (in
dec/pdp11/memory, IIRC).

> And of course if you connect the
> two UNIBI together, it's therefore directly on UNIBUS A (or 1), as well. I.e.
> DMA devices can do transfers to/from it.

To a first approximation, the two Unibuses are *always* jumpered
together. If you split them and put a DMA device on Unibus B, there is
no way to tell the DMA device to initiate an operation.  The RH11
Massbus adapter is a potential exception to that, because like the
11/45 CPU it has two Unibuses, so if you had no other DMA devices, you
could keep the two Unibuses split. I don't think DEC sold or supported
such a configuration.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb  9 15:52:58 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 13:52:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <20150209190033.GA16258@mooli.org.uk>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D8FF06.8060207@sydex.com>
 <20150209190033.GA16258@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20150209125607.D96431@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 9 Feb 2015, Peter Corlett wrote:
> JOOI, why was there such a need to sort large datasets back in the mainframe
> era?

Consider, for example, a national telephone directory.

But, what constitutes "large" has changed over the years.  At one time,
mainframes did not have much memory.


I tried to teach some of the basic concepts in a Data Structures And
Algorithms class.  Several students (from UC Berkeley) insisted that
the ONLY appropriate way to sort a dataset that was larger than RAM
was to increase the RAM of the computer.
'course there were also people who thought that the only appropriate
way to insert an additional record into a large file was to append it,
and then sort the file.  And then got upset when I explained that if they
were going to do that particular sort, then a properly designed bubble
sort would be superior to Shell/Metzner.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From ats at offog.org  Mon Feb  9 16:19:27 2015
From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 22:19:27 +0000
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <0D1D0FAF-A46D-4DB8-B7F4-EA37B5C4076B@fozztexx.com> (Chris
 Osborn's message of "Mon, 9 Feb 2015 09:28:01 -0800")
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <079301d0447e$868510e0$938f32a0$@photojim.ca>
 <etPan.54d8d510.6b8b4567.b6fb@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <58097622-EAE5-459F-989B-D41D26CAD800@fozztexx.com>
 <CAA43vkXM7JuR4XZA7kcHiRSkvzyNSw2sXhd1rCX_j9fqZSTNGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0D1D0FAF-A46D-4DB8-B7F4-EA37B5C4076B@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <y2a8ug6vic0.fsf@cartman.at.offog.org>

Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> writes:

> A long time ago when I was working at Napa Valley College, a student
> brought in a CD (I have no idea what band or album) that had an extra
> track which was a 300 baud modem recorded on it and he wanted to know
> what it was.

Perhaps the last track on Information Society's "Peace and Love, Inc."?
Adam Kempa has an article on various things along these lines (including
the text of that track) here:
  http://www.kempa.com/vinyl-data/

-- 
Adam Sampson <ats at offog.org>                         <http://offog.org/>

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 16:34:46 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 22:34:46 -0000
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D90D7A.3060407@sydex.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D8FF06.8060207@sydex.com>
 <20150209190033.GA16258@mooli.org.uk> <54D90D7A.3060407@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <017901d044b8$9bdc9460$d395bd20$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
> Guzis
> Sent: 09 February 2015 19:42
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Magnetic tape filesystem
> 
> On 02/09/2015 11:00 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:
> 
> > JOOI, why was there such a need to sort large datasets back in the
> > mainframe era?
> 

Performance? Where I worked our master file was small by modern standards, a
mere 4million record, but it took up 14 reels of tape. The update program
had many tricks to speed things up...


> Knuth's book's title gives a hint.  He called it "Searching and Sorting".
The two
> go hand in hand.
> 
> I think the simple answer is that it's easier to search sorted data,
particularly
> when said data is offline--i.e. hanging in a slot in a tape rack, or in a
drawer in
> a card cabinet.  Nowadays, when everything can be kept online, it's
probably
> less important than it used to be.
> 
> --Chuck



From cctalk at fahimi.net  Mon Feb  9 17:04:40 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 15:04:40 -0800
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
Message-ID: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>

Thought people would be interested to know:

http://www.businessinsider.com/radioshack-store-closure-list-2015-2


-Ali




From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb  9 17:12:23 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 15:12:23 -0800
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <017901d044b8$9bdc9460$d395bd20$@gmail.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D8FF06.8060207@sydex.com>
 <20150209190033.GA16258@mooli.org.uk> <54D90D7A.3060407@sydex.com>
 <017901d044b8$9bdc9460$d395bd20$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D93ED7.1050708@sydex.com>

On 02/09/2015 02:34 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:


> Performance? Where I worked our master file was small by modern standards, a
> mere 4million record, but it took up 14 reels of tape. The update program
> had many tricks to speed things up...

Now, consider the situation if you were the IRS in 1970.

--Chuck


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Feb  9 17:13:30 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 15:13:30 -0800
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
In-Reply-To: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
References: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
Message-ID: <CAEC013F-6550-445A-8CB0-285D9D785D56@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 9, 2015, at 15:04 , Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
> 
> Thought people would be interested to know:
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/radioshack-store-closure-list-2015-2


Are any stores going to remain open, or is RS entirely shutting down?


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon Feb  9 23:21:30 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 23:21:30 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
Message-ID: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>

Forgive me if I missed earlier discussion, but has anybody 
seen the
Imitation Game movie, ostensibly about Alan Turing?

There certainly were some real howlers in there, like the 
bit where Turing
single handedly decides what info they would share with the 
British
government, so as not to alert the Nazis that the Enigma 
code was
broken!

Also, there is only one instance of the Bombe, while it is 
pretty well
known they had a set of 350 of them at Ft. Meade running 24 
hours
a day.  And those were the NCR Bombes, running at 1800 RPM, 
insted
of the one in the movie going clunk-clunk-clunk.  Some other 
papers
seem to indicate there were another 350 Bombes at Bletchley.
It only makes sense for there to be a big array of NCR 
Bombes, not
the slow British-built ones, but
with all the ships being sunk, how could they be sure such a 
shipment
could make it across the Atlantic?  These things were 
critical national
resources, so I just can't image the US shipped a batch of 
them to
Britain.  (Also, there is the security issue of how to keep 
prying eyes
off the Bombes while being shipped.)

Also, they have Turing building the Bombe with his own 
hands. Various
descriptions have hundreds of people at Bletchley wiring the 
rotors and
doing much of the other work.  The Bombe parts must have 
been made
in machine shops across England.

At the end of the movie, they sort of imply by a confusing 
flashback that
Turing tells the whole story of the code cracking work at 
Bletchley to
the police officer.  It is well documented that he never 
revealed anything
to anybody about what he did there.

Any comments?

Jon

From enrico.lazzerini at email.it  Mon Feb  9 16:30:06 2015
From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 23:30:06 +0100
Subject: JLS Computers (aka Vidtek). produced in Toronto similar to SBC BB1 
In-Reply-To: <B7FB58E95C6243618E0AC81371EFC330@udvikling>
Message-ID: <201502092230.t19MU6mF016614-t19MU6mG016614@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it>


Hi, I'm a bit curious on this old historical motherboard derived from
original Ferguson Bigboard 1. Is there anybody who have it and he can send a
pic of it? Or Is there anybody who can describe it? I not found anything on
internet, just all I report below:

Micro/Access
              | Toronto, Ontario      (1983-1993)
        SYSOP | Max Southall 
     SOFTWARE | Custom by Bob Kamins and Max Southall 
     COMMENTS | "The Micro/Access BBS system grew out of the need to
              | service the product line of the JLS/Vidtek Big Board
              | project. The JLS Big Board was a reincarnation with
              | hardware and software enhancements of the original
              | Ferguson Big Board Z80 single board computer system sold
              | to hobbyists. Redesigned by Joe L. Sutherland, with input
              | from Bob Kamins, with later hardware, firmware and
              | software fixes by Max Southall, it was a solid CP/M-80
              | based system which also was the basis for the Xerox 820
              | series. Customers (or any others) of the Big Board were
              | charged $50 a year for access, which eventually included
              | email access to the then research-oriented internet.
              | There were hundreds of paying customers.  The BBS
              | software based on Bob Kamins' work was written in
              | Microsoft's BASIC, and compilation was with Microsoft's
              | M80 compiler. <p> "Eventually Max Southall completely
              | rewrote Stuart Lynne's (yes, the later ICANN chairman)
              | UUPC program and incorporated an email program interface,
              | all in assembler, which connected the Micro/Access BBS
              | users via UUCP to Unix-based internet-based
              | communications. <p> "Prior to 1985, the system was known
              | online as the Vidtek system, which grew out of
              | manufacturing video and CP/M boards for the Apple ][
              | clone systems. SCSI hard disk subsystems were
              | manufactured and sold for the Big Board and sold all over
              | the world, and the BBS used the same hardware as was sold
              | to customers." - Max Southall

Regards
Enrico


From scaron at umich.edu  Mon Feb  9 17:50:32 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 18:50:32 -0500
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
In-Reply-To: <CAEC013F-6550-445A-8CB0-285D9D785D56@nf6x.net>
References: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
 <CAEC013F-6550-445A-8CB0-285D9D785D56@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUZ40ETFx+ithaU_o=fNEvJ_e24X9yxZscu9qVSYe-tsA@mail.gmail.com>

I read somewhere that some number of them would remain open (assumedly
under some rebranded guise) as Sprint Stores but I'm not sure if any will
remain under the Radio Shack banner selling components and the like.

Best,

Sean


On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 6:13 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:

>
> > On Feb 9, 2015, at 15:04 , Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
> >
> > Thought people would be interested to know:
> >
> > http://www.businessinsider.com/radioshack-store-closure-list-2015-2
>
>
> Are any stores going to remain open, or is RS entirely shutting down?
>
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Mon Feb  9 18:24:51 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 19:24:51 -0500
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <etPan.54d8ebda.74b0dc51.b894@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <079301d0447e$868510e0$938f32a0$@photojim.ca>
 <etPan.54d8d510.6b8b4567.b6fb@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <58097622-EAE5-459F-989B-D41D26CAD800@fozztexx.com>
 <CAA43vkXM7JuR4XZA7kcHiRSkvzyNSw2sXhd1rCX_j9fqZSTNGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <etPan.54d8ebda.74b0dc51.b894@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUVA+ku9J-W0vFPhj=D6dFWg5Lw09fCD6Q=vgJMoNz32Q@mail.gmail.com>

That can help and probably plays more a factor in professional deployments
but for the hobbyist using the common broadband transports (cable, xDSL,
...) I find it mostly comes down to just getting the quickest connection
you can reasonably afford and cranking up the jitter buffer :O

Just using G.711 u-law (I haven't really played with other codecs to say
whether that could be a factor) end-to-end I've been able to achieve 28.8
kbps+ connects over VoIP with 50/10 Comast "business" as the transport on
my side.

Best,

Sean




On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Mike Whalen <mikew at thecomputervalet.com>
wrote:

> On February 9, 2015 at 11:16:30 AM, Sean Caron (scaron at umich.edu) wrote:
>
> It's all about latency and jitter. If you can keep the latency and jitter
> down... and consistent... modems will actually work pretty well over VoIP
> and you can sometimes pull off some fairly high data rates... If jitter on
> the link is very bad, good luck, even at 300 baud.
>
> Is this something usually made better by setting up QoS or traffic shaping?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> m
>

From brain at jbrain.com  Tue Feb 10 01:00:27 2015
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 01:00:27 -0600
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUZ40ETFx+ithaU_o=fNEvJ_e24X9yxZscu9qVSYe-tsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
 <CAEC013F-6550-445A-8CB0-285D9D785D56@nf6x.net>
 <CAA43vkUZ40ETFx+ithaU_o=fNEvJ_e24X9yxZscu9qVSYe-tsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54D9AC8B.5000404@jbrain.com>

On 2/9/2015 5:50 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> I read somewhere that some number of them would remain open (assumedly
> under some rebranded guise) as Sprint Stores but I'm not sure if any will
> remain under the Radio Shack banner selling components and the like.
I envy you in the locations with closing stores.  Ours appears to be a 
keeper, so no deals...

I know, that sounds horrid, but I shed my tear for RS back in the early 
90's when the sales critter didn't know what a 36 pin ribbon cable or 
IDC Centronics 36 connector (parport) was (they had both), but was all 
too eager to sell me some batteries.

Jim

From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 01:05:11 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 00:05:11 -0700
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUZ40ETFx+ithaU_o=fNEvJ_e24X9yxZscu9qVSYe-tsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
 <CAEC013F-6550-445A-8CB0-285D9D785D56@nf6x.net>
 <CAA43vkUZ40ETFx+ithaU_o=fNEvJ_e24X9yxZscu9qVSYe-tsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTzJCG8XW5d=4oEpc0cEzoOm=tqtMyJbL-nA3nLbxsg3Q@mail.gmail.com>

If I understand things correctly, the ones on the closure list are the
ones that aren't being sold to Sprint.

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Tue Feb 10 01:28:42 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 23:28:42 -0800
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150209081639.GB89656@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>
 <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150208112054.GB14680@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <E82CB6D2-0C47-4A61-870C-AE7B8B59A8D6@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150209081639.GB89656@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <280D55F3-EDAC-4762-859E-6E0D2B3727CB@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-09, at 12:16 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Brent Hilpert wrote:
> [..]
>> 
>> Pete clarified your potentially misleading statement. He wasn't "pissing on your feet".
>> 
>> Sometimes Holm, attempts at redemption just result in digging yourself in deeper.
> 
> Soso.
> I wrote a statement to how exactly test an 74S240, Pete and you wrote
> other, in this casenot interesting things.
> 
> It seems that the sentence "all was already sayd, but not from me" fits
> well here.
> 
> The sentences from TI are right and known to me, bute none of them applies
> for a functional check of exactly the 74S240 on the M8186 board.
> Connecting the input of the 74S240 wit an R to Vcc to check the High pegel
> is simply nonsense.

Holm, I was going to just drop this, but you've now added yet another misleading statement which needs correction.

You certainly haven't described how to "exactly test" a TTL input, and pulling the input-under-test actively high is certainly not "nonsense". Pulling the input high is well warranted in the context of the OP's situation (which you insist on limiting the matter to), and would indeed be necessary in a complete test of the input.

Active-high and open-circuit for a TTL input are electronically not the same thing and one could well conceive of a fault (such as junction breakdown/short with applied voltage) in which the input behaved as OK when open-circuit, but failed when pulled high.

Add to this that the input-under-test actually is pulled high in-situ (by the oscillator output), it is even more warranted to test it as such to more closely mimic the in-situ operation.
The objective of testing is not just to check that the inverter output follows the input appropriately, but to check the input isn't failing in such a manner as to upset or damage the oscillator output.
More complete testing would check the current flow through the input, which I would have got to with the OP if it had become warranted after further examination.

Your initial comment in this thread was itself an interjection to my response to the OP to pull it high & low. If I had been overly sensitive in the manner of interpreting your comment I could have taken offense, but I didn't, and I didn't argue with it at the time. But as per above, it can well be considered as utterly inadequate even in the limited context for which you claim it was intended.
You have been telling others that their additional commentary and clarifications - presented for more comprehensive understanding for others - are "wrong" and "not interesting" when they have been right and you are the one who has been repeatedly wrong.

If you want - as per one of your messages - allowance for not being a native-English speaker, then you should have earlier taken the hint that your initial comment was incomplete or could be misleading, from the 2 or 3 native-English speakers who responded with clarifications.

But go ahead, dig yourself in deeper.


From bear at typewritten.org  Tue Feb 10 03:28:05 2015
From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 01:28:05 -0800
Subject: begging drivers/docs for obscure old PC/Mac hardware
Message-ID: <D2C621F8-EA67-4370-B44C-7F99220DDA7C@typewritten.org>

Folks;

Over time, I have accreted some assorted unusual hardware for PC and Macintosh, for which I lack the software to drive it. I know we have some terrific packrats on the list, so I'm shaking the tree, to see what might fall out. 

* DuPont Imaging Systems MacBlitz NuBus RISC processor. Apparently this is a Clipper CPU which runs UNIX independently of the host Macintosh, with IPC of some description. Has its own ethernet and SCSI interfaces. The Googles know almost nothing about this.

* Vermont Microsystems Image Manager 1024 (IM-1024) 1024x800 PGC-compatible display adapter.
Supposedly there were AutoCAD, GEM, Windows 1.x and 2.x drivers at one time. I'd love to see any of them.

* Matrox "Space Machine" SM-1280 solid modeling graphics adapter. I'm not sure what kind of drivers were available; possibly it was just a set of development libraries for programming the board yourself.

* Matrox PG-1280 (and/or the Microchannel equivalent MC-1281) graphics accelerator. I'd love to see any DOS-era PC drivers, or the PRPQ that let this board work under AIX on an RT. Somebody on the VC Forum thought he had these installed on a running system, but I never heard any further news.

* Hercules Chrome TIGA (40 MHz TMS-34020) graphics accelerator. I have a Windows 3.1 driver for this, but I'm not sure the card is set up correctly. Mainly looking for documentation here.

* IBM 5364 S/36 PC SSP, MCODE, and/or DOS host software. Somebody on the list kindly sent me a disk image of just enough of the DOS host software to prove my 5364 runs, but it's not a complete install and is missing some features I wanted to enable (keyboard maps mainly, IIRC). In addition, without the MCODE floppies the system can't be reconfigured for the various communications options (bisync, SDLC, etc.) my host PC has installed.


Shoot, I thought there was something else, too. I guess I'll think of it eventually.

Anyone?


ok
bear.

-- 
until further notice


From bear at typewritten.org  Tue Feb 10 03:28:05 2015
From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 01:28:05 -0800
Subject: begging drivers/docs for obscure old PC/Mac hardware
Message-ID: <D2C621F8-EA67-4370-B44C-7F99220DDA7C@typewritten.org>

Folks;

Over time, I have accreted some assorted unusual hardware for PC and Macintosh, for which I lack the software to drive it. I know we have some terrific packrats on the list, so I'm shaking the tree, to see what might fall out. 

* DuPont Imaging Systems MacBlitz NuBus RISC processor. Apparently this is a Clipper CPU which runs UNIX independently of the host Macintosh, with IPC of some description. Has its own ethernet and SCSI interfaces. The Googles know almost nothing about this.

* Vermont Microsystems Image Manager 1024 (IM-1024) 1024x800 PGC-compatible display adapter.
Supposedly there were AutoCAD, GEM, Windows 1.x and 2.x drivers at one time. I'd love to see any of them.

* Matrox "Space Machine" SM-1280 solid modeling graphics adapter. I'm not sure what kind of drivers were available; possibly it was just a set of development libraries for programming the board yourself.

* Matrox PG-1280 (and/or the Microchannel equivalent MC-1281) graphics accelerator. I'd love to see any DOS-era PC drivers, or the PRPQ that let this board work under AIX on an RT. Somebody on the VC Forum thought he had these installed on a running system, but I never heard any further news.

* Hercules Chrome TIGA (40 MHz TMS-34020) graphics accelerator. I have a Windows 3.1 driver for this, but I'm not sure the card is set up correctly. Mainly looking for documentation here.

* IBM 5364 S/36 PC SSP, MCODE, and/or DOS host software. Somebody on the list kindly sent me a disk image of just enough of the DOS host software to prove my 5364 runs, but it's not a complete install and is missing some features I wanted to enable (keyboard maps mainly, IIRC). In addition, without the MCODE floppies the system can't be reconfigured for the various communications options (bisync, SDLC, etc.) my host PC has installed.


Shoot, I thought there was something else, too. I guess I'll think of it eventually.

Anyone?


ok
bear.

-- 
until further notice


From cfox1 at cogeco.ca  Tue Feb 10 04:12:03 2015
From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 05:12:03 -0500
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <7aa63e$enlfv8@fipsb03.cogeco.net>

At 12:21 AM 10/02/2015, you wrote:
>Forgive me if I missed earlier discussion, but has anybody seen the
>Imitation Game movie, ostensibly about Alan Turing?
>
>There certainly were some real howlers in there, like the bit where Turing
>single handedly decides what info they would share with the British
>government, so as not to alert the Nazis that the Enigma code was
>broken!
>
>Also, there is only one instance of the Bombe, while it is pretty well
>known they had a set of 350 of them at Ft. Meade running 24 hours
>a day.  And those were the NCR Bombes, running at 1800 RPM, insted
>of the one in the movie going clunk-clunk-clunk.  Some other papers
>seem to indicate there were another 350 Bombes at Bletchley.
>It only makes sense for there to be a big array of NCR Bombes, not
>the slow British-built ones, but
>with all the ships being sunk, how could they be sure such a shipment
>could make it across the Atlantic?  These things were critical national
>resources, so I just can't image the US shipped a batch of them to
>Britain.  (Also, there is the security issue of how to keep prying eyes
>off the Bombes while being shipped.)
>
>Also, they have Turing building the Bombe with his own hands. Various
>descriptions have hundreds of people at Bletchley wiring the rotors and
>doing much of the other work.  The Bombe parts must have been made
>in machine shops across England.
>
>At the end of the movie, they sort of imply by a confusing flashback that
>Turing tells the whole story of the code cracking work at Bletchley to
>the police officer.  It is well documented that he never revealed anything
>to anybody about what he did there.
>
>Any comments?
>
>Jon


         When Hollywood handles a story strange things happen. We are 
lucky they mentioned
  Bletchley Park at all.

Charlie Fox




From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Tue Feb 10 04:39:14 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:39:14 +0100
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <7aa63e$enlfv8@fipsb03.cogeco.net>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <7aa63e$enlfv8@fipsb03.cogeco.net>
Message-ID: <20150210103913.GA24220@Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 05:12:03AM -0500, Charles E. Fox wrote:
>
>         When Hollywood handles a story strange things happen. We are
> lucky they mentioned
>  Bletchley Park at all.

Indeed, the movie "Enigma" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0157583/) didn't 
include Turing at all.

/P

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Tue Feb 10 05:33:46 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 03:33:46 -0800
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <20150210103913.GA24220@Update.UU.SE>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <7aa63e$enlfv8@fipsb03.cogeco.net> <20150210103913.GA24220@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <D3AA9428-ECF4-4D6A-A9A6-F010754E162F@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-10, at 2:39 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 05:12:03AM -0500, Charles E. Fox wrote:
>> 
>>        When Hollywood handles a story strange things happen. We are
>> lucky they mentioned
>> Bletchley Park at all.
> 
> Indeed, the movie "Enigma" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0157583/) didn't 
> include Turing at all.

I haven't seen the Imitation Game, but did view the trailer and what I saw there left me with the sense while it might be fine as entertainment, the historical inaccuracies would be annoying.

Maybe I shouldn't judge too much by the trailer but it left the impression it was going to be dramatised along the stereotypical lines of the 'solitary-brilliant-genius-battling-alone-against-the-dumb-officious-bureaucrats-who-would-never-understand-what-he-was-doing' (to get the Bombes constructed). I'm rather skeptical that was at all accurate to the way things transpired.

As I recall, Enigma was different in that it wasn't trying to be an historic docu-drama, it was just using Bletchley and WWII code-breaking for the setting of a fictional story.


From pete at pski.net  Tue Feb 10 06:54:05 2015
From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 07:54:05 -0500
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
In-Reply-To: <54D9AC8B.5000404@jbrain.com>
References: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
 <CAEC013F-6550-445A-8CB0-285D9D785D56@nf6x.net>
 <CAA43vkUZ40ETFx+ithaU_o=fNEvJ_e24X9yxZscu9qVSYe-tsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D9AC8B.5000404@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <4DD7BE63-DCE8-486D-A3CB-F73F378F7F96@pski.net>

I wonder what are the odds that any of these stores might have some old TRS-80 gear hidden away in a back store room?

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 10, 2015, at 2:00 AM, Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2/9/2015 5:50 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
>> I read somewhere that some number of them would remain open (assumedly
>> under some rebranded guise) as Sprint Stores but I'm not sure if any will
>> remain under the Radio Shack banner selling components and the like.
> I envy you in the locations with closing stores.  Ours appears to be a keeper, so no deals...
> 
> I know, that sounds horrid, but I shed my tear for RS back in the early 90's when the sales critter didn't know what a 36 pin ribbon cable or IDC Centronics 36 connector (parport) was (they had both), but was all too eager to sell me some batteries.
> 
> Jim

From jws at jwsss.com  Tue Feb 10 07:09:18 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 05:09:18 -0800
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <D3AA9428-ECF4-4D6A-A9A6-F010754E162F@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <7aa63e$enlfv8@fipsb03.cogeco.net> <20150210103913.GA24220@Update.UU.SE>
 <D3AA9428-ECF4-4D6A-A9A6-F010754E162F@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54DA02FE.4090900@jwsss.com>


On 2/10/2015 3:33 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> On 2015-Feb-10, at 2:39 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 05:12:03AM -0500, Charles E. Fox wrote:
>>>         When Hollywood handles a story strange things happen. We are
>>> lucky they mentioned
>>> Bletchley Park at all.
>> Indeed, the movie "Enigma" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0157583/) didn't
>> include Turing at all.
> I haven't seen the Imitation Game, but did view the trailer and what I saw there left me with the sense while it might be fine as entertainment, the historical inaccuracies would be annoying.
>
> Maybe I shouldn't judge too much by the trailer but it left the impression it was going to be dramatised along the stereotypical lines of the 'solitary-brilliant-genius-battling-alone-against-the-dumb-officious-bureaucrats-who-would-never-understand-what-he-was-doing' (to get the Bombes constructed). I'm rather skeptical that was at all accurate to the way things transpired.
>
> As I recall, Enigma was different in that it wasn't trying to be an historic docu-drama, it was just using Bletchley and WWII code-breaking for the setting of a fictional story.
I always worry about any storyteller who confused breaking Enigma and 
codebreaking with Ultra.  The trailers for this movie have it in spades.

I don't know the setting for one comment from a female character saying 
"I was happy I went thru a town you saved" or some such, but it would 
have been very unlikely that anyone would say that during the war, and 
until Winterbottom said fuck it, noone could say anything w/o a 
violation of the Official Secrets Act (or whatever the accurate name is 
for it).

The codebreaking is better told if it includes all the players, 
including the Polish who had a good go at breaking it, and I think 
pointed out and held to death in the case of captured members of their 
group what the critical error was that the Bletchley park people's 
automation exploited.

The automation exploited a common practice in encoding messages which 
allowed the presets for the Bombes.  W/o that guess the automation 
didn't have that much to go on, and you were back to tedious methods 
that relied on much guesswork as to what the wheel settings were.

This is not going to affect telling the human stories other than leaving 
out some of the groups who joined together to create Ultra. Ultra was so 
successful that even though the Germans got wind of it, they suspected a 
traitor rather than the actual truth.

Another miniseries, Manhattan aired here on WGN and was somewhat 
entertaining, but again the pronouncements of the characters were 
totally unbelievable when one considers what was being done.  One 
particularly silly line has to do with the project being so secret the 
Vice President didn't know about it.  The character uttering that would 
have had no clue about that.  Makes it hard to watch things when they 
screw things up like that and get no payback.

I appreciate movie and tv writing enough to know about liberties in 
facts that are taken, but respect when they do something and get a 
really big plot payback for it, not just some sillyness.

thanks
Jim

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Tue Feb 10 07:44:16 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 07:44:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
In-Reply-To: <4DD7BE63-DCE8-486D-A3CB-F73F378F7F96@pski.net>
References: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
 <CAEC013F-6550-445A-8CB0-285D9D785D56@nf6x.net>
 <CAA43vkUZ40ETFx+ithaU_o=fNEvJ_e24X9yxZscu9qVSYe-tsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D9AC8B.5000404@jbrain.com> <4DD7BE63-DCE8-486D-A3CB-F73F378F7F96@pski.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502100731050.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Tue, 10 Feb 2015, Peter Cetinski wrote:

> I wonder what are the odds that any of these stores might have some old 
> TRS-80 gear hidden away in a back store room?

Possible, but very very slim. In the mid to late 90s, every now and then 
some sort of old TRS-80 item would show up in the outlet store here when 
an older store would find something in the back and send it over. That 
stuff dried up long ago though. I bought up a very large amount of TRS-80 
and early Tandy computer stuff from the outlet here in the mid to late 
90s, but I liquidated most of it on eBay ages ago. Somewhere I think I 
still have a few random printer cables for the Tandy 1000 as well as some 
36-pin right angle adapter cables, but not much else. The cassette 
recorder cables were the first to go, even though I had tons of them. I 
may also still have a few CoCo DIN type serial cables, but no one ever 
really wanted those.

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Feb 10 08:20:53 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 09:20:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: imitation game movie
Message-ID: <20150210142053.B2CCE18C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jon Elson

    > has anybody seen the Imitation Game movie, ostensibly about Alan Turing?
    > ..
    > Any comments?

I have, and I also have extensively studied both WWII codebreaking, and
Turing's life and work.

It's an OK movie, but as any kind of historical thing - fuhgeddaboutit. There
are so many 'errors' (changes) that it's basically impossible to list them
all. They ran about about one error/change per minute, throughout the whole
movie. It's more wrong than right, actually.

About the only thing that was absolutley accurate (other than the basic
concept, that Turing worked at BP and helped break German codes) was Joan
Clarke's soliloquy in his flat at the end of the movie, describing his
contribution to the world.

    > Various descriptions have hundreds of people at Bletchley wiring the
    > rotors and doing much of the other work. The Bombe parts must have been
    > made in machine shops across England.

Hmm. The descriptions I've seen of their manufacture (e.g. Gordon Welchman,
"The Hut Six Story", pp. 138-141, Hugh Sebag-Montefiore, "Enigma: The Battle
for the Code", pp. 56-58) all indicate that the machines were manufactured by
British Tabulating Machines in their Letchworth factory (about half-way
between BP and Cambridge), and only came to BP once they were completed.
There was a lot of local sub-contracting of small sub-assemblies which didn't
require machining, though (see Welchman).

	Noel

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 08:39:30 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 09:39:30 -0500
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>

> It only makes sense for there to be a big array of NCR Bombes, not
> the slow British-built ones, but
> with all the ships being sunk, how could they be sure such a shipment
> could make it across the Atlantic?

Spread the shipment over quite a few ships. The machines may have been
tagged as expendable items, like most military things. If a few get
sunk with the ship, make more.

> These things were critical national
> resources, so I just can't image the US shipped a batch of them to
> Britain.  (Also, there is the security issue of how to keep prying eyes
> off the Bombes while being shipped.)

This is a non-issue. One a thing was export packed, it was just
another big crate to the dockworkers and seamen. One of thousands per
manifest. And I mean BIG crate. I have had to bust up more than a few
World War 2 export crates, and I can tell you that you will need a
much bigger tool that just your eyes!

> The Bombe parts must have been made
> in machine shops across England.

This was standard practice for just about every nation in World War 2,
just as it is now. Little bits and pieces are farmed out carefully,
and none of the little shops see the big picture.

> Any comments?

I have not seen the movie, but I will warn that Enigma people are
almost as nutty as the Tesla fanboys. There are a *lot* of
misconceptions and misinformation out there.

--
Will

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Feb 10 08:53:15 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 09:53:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Anyone need spare 11/05 - 11/10 keys?
Message-ID: <20150210145315.DD01518C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Noel Chiappa

    > I'm about to go back for two more: does anyone else need one/any? If
    > so, please let me know 

One thing I need to check, before I get a whole stack made: does anyone know
for sure if all 11/05's and 11/10's use the same key? (This is a standard,
flat 'Yale'-type key, not the cylindrical key used in the 11/45's, etc.) The
two I have do, but they came from the same place, and so might have been
re-keyed to use the same key.

Thanks!

	Noel

From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 09:41:25 2015
From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 09:41:25 -0600
Subject: Radio Shack
Message-ID: <BAY179-W287BE80BBAACB51812000FB5240@phx.gbl>

Most people posting in this thread have assumed that all Radio Shack stores were closing. That is not the case (at least for some time). Only about half of the company-owned stores are being closed. RS has published a list of the 1784 stores it wants to close: http://radioshackcorporation.com/pdfs/RS-Store-Closure-List_020415.pdf. Another 1750 stores will be taken over by Sprint for cell phone "store-within-stores" and about 1000 stores owned by franchisees are not part of the Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings. According to the Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/10/radioshack_store_axed/), the closings will take place by March 31. Two stores in downtown Chicago, near where I work, are on the list, so I will be watching them to see when they start selling off the merchandise.


Bob 		 	   		  

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Tue Feb 10 09:29:43 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 15:29:43 +0000
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54DA23E7.20008@dunnington.plus.com>

On 10/02/2015 05:21, Jon Elson wrote:
> There certainly were some real howlers in there, like the bit where Turing
> single handedly decides what info they would share with the British
> government, so as not to alert the Nazis that the Enigma code was
> broken!

I've not seen it but there's been a lot of criticism about historical 
(in)accuracy.

> Also, there is only one instance of the Bombe, while it is pretty well
> known they had a set of 350 of them at Ft. Meade running 24 hours
> a day.  And those were the NCR Bombes, running at 1800 RPM, insted
> of the one in the movie going clunk-clunk-clunk.  Some other papers
> seem to indicate there were another 350 Bombes at Bletchley.

I'm not an expert, but I think you're a bit wide of the mark in places. 
  You're evidently referring to the US Navy bombes.  Although the 
original contract was apparently for 350, only 121 were ever built, 
including prototypes, and they were used at the US Navy Communications 
Annex in Washington, not Ft Meade.  The US Army also had a small number 
of bombes built closer to a British design.  And the reproduction at 
Bletchley doesn't run at the full speed of the later British ones, 
although it's true the US Navy Bombe was a good deal faster (850rpm or 
1725rpm vs 120rpm; various sources suggest between 5 and 10 times faster 
in practice).

Bletchley itself had only a small number of bombes.  Most of the 224 
built in Britain were housed at outstations.

Because I've not seen the film, I don't know what the 
"clunk-clunk-clunk" you refer to is, but I've seen and heard the bombe 
running and I would bet it's the sound of the middle wheels advancing, 
roughly once a second on the replica, but faster on most of the British 
bombes.

> It only makes sense for there to be a big array of NCR Bombes, not
> the slow British-built ones, but
> with all the ships being sunk, how could they be sure such a shipment
> could make it across the Atlantic?

They didn't.  No bombes were ever shipped across the Atlantic.  Only 
design drawings and information were, in the care of officers from the 
US Army and Navy in 1941, and later two USN and some senior Bletchley 
staff in 1942.  The US Navy bombe was an adaptation of the British 
design from the latter exchange, and went into service in 1943.  Britain 
had been using their bombes for several years by then, of course.

Bletchley apparently did use USN bombes, but not directly.  They did it 
by sending cribs and getting the stops and settings back over encrypted 
cable, to be used for decryption of 4-rotor Naval Enigma messages at 
Bletchley Park.

> Also, they have Turing building the Bombe with his own hands. Various
> descriptions have hundreds of people at Bletchley wiring the rotors and
> doing much of the other work.  The Bombe parts must have been made
> in machine shops across England.

All made by the British Tabulating Machine Company (BTM), though they 
subcontracted some parts.

-- 
Pete

-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Feb 10 09:55:52 2015
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 07:55:52 -0800
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
In-Reply-To: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
References: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
Message-ID: <5DB248B4-C129-409C-8B72-D061AC89B289@aracnet.com>

On Feb 9, 2015, at 3:04 PM, "Ali" <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:

> Thought people would be interested to know:
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/radioshack-store-closure-list-2015-2
> 
> 
> -Ali

It might be worth people's time to cruise the stores that are still open.  I was able to get some connectors I wanted for a semi-decent price, when I stopped at one recently, not knowing it was getting ready to close down.

Zane

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Feb 10 10:00:38 2015
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 08:00:38 -0800
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
In-Reply-To: <54D9AC8B.5000404@jbrain.com>
References: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
 <CAEC013F-6550-445A-8CB0-285D9D785D56@nf6x.net>
 <CAA43vkUZ40ETFx+ithaU_o=fNEvJ_e24X9yxZscu9qVSYe-tsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D9AC8B.5000404@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <68DD74DD-ED0D-4CB0-B9AE-017B34244749@aracnet.com>


On Feb 9, 2015, at 11:00 PM, Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com> wrote:

> I know, that sounds horrid, but I shed my tear for RS back in the early 90's when the sales critter didn't know what a 36 pin ribbon cable or IDC Centronics 36 connector (parport) was (they had both), but was all too eager to sell me some batteries.
> 
> Jim

I still remember my shock when I found a wire-wrap tool at the Rat Shack at the big area mall, in 2000.  I'd been looking for one for a couple years.  

I needed some parts recently.  Their selection of Resistors was horrible, and this was at the best remaining Rat Shack in the area.  Their prices were even worse.  We used to have a store called Norvac in the area, but they went out of business, and the place that went in near where they used to be seems more interested in Arduino's.

I really hate having to order parts.

Zane



From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 10:32:09 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 17:32:09 +0100
Subject: Anyone need spare 11/05 - 11/10 keys?
In-Reply-To: <20150210145315.DD01518C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150210145315.DD01518C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS25B4554ED4291C07A61F6B86240@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Noel Chiappa
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 3:53 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Anyone need spare 11/05 - 11/10 keys?

    > From: Noel Chiappa

    > I'm about to go back for two more: does anyone else need one/any? If
    > so, please let me know

One thing I need to check, before I get a whole stack made: does anyone know
for sure if all 11/05's and 11/10's use the same key? (This is a standard,
flat 'Yale'-type key, not the cylindrical key used in the 11/45's, etc.) The
two I have do, but they came from the same place, and so might have been
re-keyed to use the same key.

Thanks!
Noel

----- reply -----
I have both /05 and /10, but I can check/test on Saturday.
The key is as far as I know identical for both models.

- Henk 


From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Feb 10 10:32:16 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 08:32:16 -0800
Subject: SC40
Message-ID: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>

Is anyone on the list going to go after this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221687223814


From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Feb 10 11:00:16 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:00:16 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <D3AA9428-ECF4-4D6A-A9A6-F010754E162F@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <7aa63e$enlfv8@fipsb03.cogeco.net> <20150210103913.GA24220@Update.UU.SE>
 <D3AA9428-ECF4-4D6A-A9A6-F010754E162F@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54DA3920.3030100@pico-systems.com>

On 02/10/2015 05:33 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 05:12:03AM -0500, Charles E. Fox wrote:
>>>         When Hollywood handles a story strange things happen. We are
>>> lucky they mentioned
>>> Bletchley Park at all.
> I haven't seen the Imitation Game, but did view the trailer and what I saw there left me with the sense while it might be fine as entertainment, the historical inaccuracies would be annoying.
>
>
Yup, and you would have been right.  I can accept MOST of 
the changes due to
dramatic license, etc.  But, the part where Turing HIMSELF 
decides what info can
be acted on is so FAR out of touch!  Churchill PERSONALLY 
had to make some
of the toughest decisions, such as to not evacuate Coventry 
when they knew it
was next for getting blitzed.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Feb 10 11:10:19 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:10:19 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <20150210142053.B2CCE18C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150210142053.B2CCE18C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54DA3B7B.2080308@pico-systems.com>

On 02/10/2015 08:20 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> Hmm. The descriptions I've seen of their manufacture (e.g. Gordon Welchman,
> "The Hut Six Story", pp. 138-141, Hugh Sebag-Montefiore, "Enigma: The Battle
> for the Code", pp. 56-58) all indicate that the machines were manufactured by
> British Tabulating Machines in their Letchworth factory (about half-way
> between BP and Cambridge), and only came to BP once they were completed.
> There was a lot of local sub-contracting of small sub-assemblies which didn't
> require machining, though (see Welchman).
>
>
OK, but there are some descriptions that the actual wiring 
of the rotors was done AT
Bletchley, for security reasons.  If a German spy was to get 
his hands on the drawings
for even one (wired) rotor, they would have realized how 
thoroughly the British
had penetrated the Enigma system, and would have to come up 
with a new system.
So, it makes sense that the actual rotor wiring was REALLY 
strictly compartmentalized.

So, did the Brits actually have 350 Bombes?  Were they 
Bletchley Bombes or NCR
Bombes?  I'm guessing from what you say above they were the 
Bletchley (slow)
version.  If they did have 350 of them, they would have 
taken up a HUGE amount
of space, something like 10,000 square feet, given some 
space to work around
each unit.  Ft. Meade had theirs in a huge warehouse like 
building, with a team
of cipher clerks working around them constantly to record 
when the got hits.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Feb 10 11:18:54 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:18:54 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DA3D7E.2080702@pico-systems.com>

On 02/10/2015 08:39 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
> I have not seen the movie, but I will warn that Enigma people are
> almost as nutty as the Tesla fanboys. There are a *lot* of
> misconceptions and misinformation out there.
>
Yes, the Brits have declassified much, but they word things 
so as to give the
impression that they were solely responsible for all WW-II 
codebreaking.
The US has just recently allowed declassifying what NCR did 
to build a
higher speed Bombe (they give FULL credit to the Brits and 
Turing for
the design of the Bombe and the methods used to crack Enigma 
start
positions), and the massive operation for bulk cracking and 
decoding of
the full Enigma traffic.  This was apparently done at Ft. 
Meade in Maryland.

The war going on now at Bletchley Park between the Bletchley 
Park Trust
and the National Museum of Computing, is certainly an 
indication of what you
are talking about.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Feb 10 11:23:20 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:23:20 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com>

On 02/10/2015 08:39 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
> I have not seen the movie, but I will warn that Enigma 
> people are almost as nutty as the Tesla fanboys. There are 
> a *lot* of misconceptions and misinformation out there.
OK, my only comment to that is the stuff that says "Turing 
was THE father of the computer, period, full stop."
Note the singular.

What about Charles Babbage and (Augusta) Ada Byron?  How can 
you leave them out?
How about John von Neumann?  Geez, I think he really ranks 
above Turing, at least
as far as building real machines.  Turing sure contributed a 
LOT of really important
theoretical underpinnings, no way to doubt that.  But, this 
singular THE father stuff,
really makes me steam.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Feb 10 11:37:25 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:37:25 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DA23E7.20008@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <54DA23E7.20008@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <54DA41D5.3070204@pico-systems.com>

On 02/10/2015 09:29 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote:
>
> I'm not an expert, but I think you're a bit wide of the 
> mark in places.  You're evidently referring to the US Navy 
> bombes. Although the original contract was apparently for 
> 350, only 121 were ever built, including prototypes, and 
> they were used at the US Navy Communications Annex in 
> Washington, not Ft Meade.  The US Army also had a small 
> number of bombes built closer to a British design.  And 
> the reproduction at Bletchley doesn't run at the full 
> speed of the later British ones, although it's true the US 
> Navy Bombe was a good deal faster (850rpm or 1725rpm vs 
> 120rpm; various sources suggest between 5 and 10 times 
> faster in practice).
There is a 7-part article about the building of the NCR 
Bombes that I read.  It was written largely
by Joe Desch's daughter.  He was the main designer and 
project leader of the NCR Bombe.
It is an interesting story, but I have failed to find the 
link again in a quick look.  Possibly the 350 number
was the number originally ordered, and she found this number 
in documents, but didn't
know that the production was cut short as the machines were 
so successful.
>
> Bletchley itself had only a small number of bombes.  Most 
> of the 224 built in Britain were housed at outstations.
>
> Because I've not seen the film, I don't know what the 
> "clunk-clunk-clunk" you refer to is, but I've seen and 
> heard the bombe running and I would bet it's the sound of 
> the middle wheels advancing, roughly once a second on the 
> replica, but faster on most of the British bombes.
Yes, exactly.
>
>> It only makes sense for there to be a big array of NCR 
>> Bombes, not
>> the slow British-built ones, but
>> with all the ships being sunk, how could they be sure 
>> such a shipment
>> could make it across the Atlantic?
>
> They didn't.  No bombes were ever shipped across the 
> Atlantic. Only design drawings and information were, in 
> the care of officers from the US Army and Navy in 1941, 
> and later two USN and some senior Bletchley staff in 
> 1942.  The US Navy bombe was an adaptation of the British 
> design from the latter exchange, and went into service in 
> 1943.  Britain had been using their bombes for several 
> years by then, of course.
>
> Bletchley apparently did use USN bombes, but not 
> directly.  They did it by sending cribs and getting the 
> stops and settings back over encrypted cable, to be used 
> for decryption of 4-rotor Naval Enigma messages at 
> Bletchley Park.
>
Yes, this is as I suspected, due to the difficulty of 
sending anything across the Atlantic, and the
EXTREME sensitivity of the project.  They actually did a LOT 
better at keeping this one
secret than they did with the Manhattan project.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 10 11:42:42 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 09:42:42 -0800
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>

On 02/10/2015 09:23 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

> misconceptions and misinformation out there.
> OK, my only comment to that is the stuff that says "Turing was THE
> father of the computer, period, full stop."
> Note the singular.
>
> What about Charles Babbage and (Augusta) Ada Byron?  How can you leave
> them out?

How about John Antansaoff?  From Wikip, to refresh your memory:

"John Vincent Atanasoff (October 4, 1903 ? June 15, 1995) was an 
American physicist and inventor, best known for inventing the first 
electronic digital computer."

--Chuck



From wilson at dbit.com  Tue Feb 10 11:45:05 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:45:05 -0500
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <20150210174505.GA16435@dbit.dbit.com>

On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 08:32:16AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote:
>Is anyone on the list going to go after this?
>http://www.ebay.com/itm/221687223814

Not me ... but ... DROOOOOOOOL ...

John Wilson
D Bit

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 11:56:27 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 17:56:27 -0000
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <07db01d0455a$e48e2b40$adaa81c0$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
> Guzis
> Sent: 10 February 2015 17:43
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: imitation game movie
> 
> On 02/10/2015 09:23 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> 
> > misconceptions and misinformation out there.
> > OK, my only comment to that is the stuff that says "Turing was THE
> > father of the computer, period, full stop."
> > Note the singular.
> >
> > What about Charles Babbage and (Augusta) Ada Byron?  How can you leave
> > them out?
> 
> How about John Antansaoff?  From Wikip, to refresh your memory:
> 
> "John Vincent Atanasoff (October 4, 1903 ? June 15, 1995) was an American
> physicist and inventor, best known for inventing the first electronic digital
> computer."
> 
> --Chuck
> 

Just because Turing didn't build a computer doesn't mean he wasn't the father of computing. The work he did defined both what a computer is, and allowed us to divide problems into those which can be solved on a computer, and those where   the computer can guess the answer enough times that it will eventually get it right. 

Dave Wade
G4UGM


From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 12:05:42 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 19:05:42 +0100
Subject: Magnetic tape filesystem
In-Reply-To: <54D81B51.2000703@jwsss.com>
References: <54D80458.9020809@yahoo.com.au> <54D80AD7.6040505@sydex.com>
 <54D8127E.5030606@gmail.com> <54D81569.6010101@sydex.com>
 <54D81B51.2000703@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHdMu=7nndouVFDRYrvt8t3sGjkSKJvXf23G8GkZLe=mA@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 February 2015 at 03:28, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> Alpha Micro made a card that did backups to VHS.


AFAIK that was the standard software distribution format for the
machines. I never did much AM support but my 1st job was at a company
which, along with IBM, Apple, Compaq & other more mainstream makes,
also resold Alpha Micro kit. Fascinatingly weird -- a sort of tiny,
rather proprietary minicomputer, based around the 68000 and
microcomputer technology.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From b4 at gewt.net  Tue Feb 10 12:11:18 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:11:18 -0500
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <20150210174505.GA16435@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
 <20150210174505.GA16435@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <0CE87404-27F2-4630-81C3-03B5B1BFD645@gewt.net>

Well...I'm localish...

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 10, 2015, at 12:45, John Wilson <wilson at dbit.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 08:32:16AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote:
>> Is anyone on the list going to go after this?
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221687223814
> 
> Not me ... but ... DROOOOOOOOL ...
> 
> John Wilson
> D Bit

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Feb 10 12:24:44 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 10:24:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <07db01d0455a$e48e2b40$adaa81c0$@gmail.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <07db01d0455a$e48e2b40$adaa81c0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150210101142.V11448@shell.lmi.net>

> > > misconceptions and misinformation out there.
> > > OK, my only comment to that is the stuff that says "Turing was THE
> > > father of the computer, period, full stop."
> > > Note the singular.
> > > What about Charles Babbage and (Augusta) Ada Byron?  How can you leave
> > > them out?
> > How about John Antansaoff?  From Wikip, to refresh your memory:

Or Zuse?

Paternity will always remain disputed.

Since we can't even ever fully agree on the meanings of "COMPUTER",
or even "FIRST", eventually it will end up as arguments about whether
it was Bill Gates or Steve Jobs.


And most writers don't care much about what was around before they
got into it.  Most end up saying something on the order of, "Although
there were some predecessors, the first really USABLE computer . . . "
PC?  (sometimes acknowledging the prior existence of CP/M)
PC/AT?  (acknowledging existence of PC)
Mac?  (acknowledging existence of Apple][+)

And truth and accuracy will always get short shrift.
The schools still teach that Columbus heroically discovered America
in order to prove that the earth is round, ignoring Leif, and asian
immigrants (who were there to greet Columbus and whom he said would
make a good source of slaves)

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Tue Feb 10 12:20:14 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 18:20:14 +0000
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DA41D5.3070204@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <54DA23E7.20008@dunnington.plus.com> <54DA41D5.3070204@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54DA4BDE.1060709@dunnington.plus.com>

On 10/02/2015 17:37, Jon Elson wrote:

> On 02/10/2015 09:29 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: There is a 7-part
> article about the building of the NCR Bombes that I read.  It was
> written largely by Joe Desch's daughter.  He was the main designer
> and project leader of the NCR Bombe. It is an interesting story, but
> I have failed to find the link again in a quick look.  Possibly the
> 350 number was the number originally ordered, and she found this
> number in documents, but didn't know that the production was cut
> short as the machines were so successful.

It's well documented.  Production initially stopped at 96, but then the
British asked the US to make 50 more specifically to work on the Naval
Enigma, but by the time 25 more were built and in service, there was no
need for more.

-- 
Pete

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Tue Feb 10 12:19:59 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 18:19:59 +0000
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DA3D7E.2080702@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3D7E.2080702@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54DA4BCF.1010707@dunnington.plus.com>

On 10/02/2015 17:18, Jon Elson wrote:
> The US has just recently allowed declassifying what NCR did to build a
> higher speed Bombe (they give FULL credit to the Brits and Turing for
> the design of the Bombe and the methods used to crack Enigma start
> positions), and the massive operation for bulk cracking and decoding of
> the full Enigma traffic.  This was apparently done at Ft. Meade in
> Maryland.

No, it wasn't.  For a short while, the first two were operated at NCR in 
Dayton where they were built, for testing and training but transferred 
to Washington.  At the time, Fort Meade was a PoW camp.  It had nothing 
to do with cryptography until well after the war.

-- 
Pete

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 10 12:30:09 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 10:30:09 -0800
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <07db01d0455a$e48e2b40$adaa81c0$@gmail.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <07db01d0455a$e48e2b40$adaa81c0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DA4E31.4040903@sydex.com>

On 02/10/2015 09:56 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:

>
> Just because Turing didn't build a computer doesn't mean he wasn't
> the father of computing. The work he did defined both what a computer
> is, and allowed us to divide problems into those which can be solved
> on a computer, and those where   the computer can guess the answer
> enough times that it will eventually get it right.

The point is that a lot of people were responsible for the development 
of mechanical computation (I include electrical and electronic in this 
definition).

Turing didn't invent computation any more than Edison invented the 
incandescent lamp or Shockley et al invented the transistor.

In fact, it could be argued that the ball-and-disc integrator was more 
responsible for the eventual Allied victory in WWII than Turing's work was.

The problem is that history is written by the victors and worse, the 
historians, each with his own particular agenda--and that nothing 
happens in a vacuum.

Let's just say that conditions were ripe for the technological advance 
in computation.

--Chuck


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Feb 10 12:31:07 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:31:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: imitation game movie
Message-ID: <20150210183107.0702D18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jon Elson

    > such as to not evacuate Coventry when they knew it was next for getting
    > blitzed.

Ah, this is alas an urban legend ('bogo-meme', to coin a nice neologism);
started, IIRC, by Winterbotham.

This has been demolished, by, among others, R. V. Jones, who was in a
position to know (as the recipient of Ultra material at the Air Ministry), in
his biographical work, "The Wizard War", pp. 147-151. He refers to evidence
given by John Martin (Churchill's secretary, who was with him in the car that
night), and John Colville (Assistant Private Secretary, who was on duty at 10
Downing St. that night). They are both quite clear that the target was
unknown before the raid started; Jones gives the details on why not.


    > there are some descriptions that the actual wiring of the rotors was
    > done AT Bletchley

I'd love to read about that - do you know/recall where you saw it?

    > If a German spy was to get his hands on the drawings for even one
    > (wired) rotor, they would have realized how thoroughly the British had
    > penetrated the Enigma system

I am less certain of this. I seem to recall (alas, too busy to look it up,
unless someone's really interested) that the Germans had something of a
modern concept of code security, where it's assumed that the actual ciphering
machine is compromised, and security depends on the security of the keys.

Given the wide deployment of Enigma at the tactical level, the odds were good
that the machine itself had been compromised. So for them to have found out
that the British had the rotor wiring would not have been a big surprise, I
would expect.

However, had they gotten any kind of detailed description of the Bombe, it
would have not been that hard to work out that its use was to break into
Enigma. In that sense, the Bombe's overall design was in fact a bigger secret
than the fact that they had the rotor wiring.

And of course as a result of the XX system, the British were fairly sure that
there were no German spies in the UK at the time, anyway.

	Noel

From jim at deitygraveyard.com  Tue Feb 10 12:49:43 2015
From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:49:43 -0500
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CA+oaVqz=f=2teaR14cK8zop37CZN_fR+62hemjqragxJo2mUdg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Al  Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
> Is anyone on the list going to go after this?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221687223814
>

Well to whoever gets them, would you *please* image the SCSI drives
and send me a copy? Gerry tried to but had technical problems of some
kind. I tried asking the Living Computer Museum, who received a
duplicate system, but got no response from them. :(

This system was part of CompuServe and I kinda got a thing for
collecting as much information on the old online services as I can.
I'm as interested in retro-online services and retro-networking as I
am retro-computing!

I know I'm weird.

Jim

From leec2124 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 13:07:32 2015
From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:07:32 -0800
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAG_uPVFM6=EL6i58RLGhuyTb4+BP7HnzpOTEQM=5u5Jt_G1N=g@mail.gmail.com>

No, not going after this. But, did ask a question:

Q: Any software included? If yes, can you post detailed description
including if source code is available, media and licensing information.

A: No software included. There are drives in the rack with the sc-40's. You
can boot to prompt via terminal emulator, and a sync cable. You can see
what we did by searching Systems Concepts SC40 PDP10 on youtube. Thanks for
your interest.


On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

> Is anyone on the list going to go after this?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221687223814
>
>


-- 
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Feb 10 13:13:09 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 14:13:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: imitation game movie
Message-ID: <20150210191309.2AC0118C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jon Elson

    > How about John von Neumann? Geez, I think he really ranks above Turing,
    > at least as far as building real machines.

This is unclear, for a whole host of reasons.

First, you should look at Turing's ACE. Designed by Turing, at about the same
time as the EDVAC, it spawned the Pilot ACE which was an important early
British computer (commercialized as the Deuce). This machine is too large a
topic to go into here, but may I suggest Copeland's admirable work on the
subject, "Alan Turing's Automatic Computing Engine" - among other interesting
aspects, he claims (and makes a good argument) that the ACE is RISC machine
(the first).

Turing was heavily involved in early computer work from the end of WWII until
his death (e.g. at the start of that period, he attended the Symposium on
Large Scale Digital Calculating Machinery at Hardvard in February, 1947).

Second, when assessing the relative important of the contributions of Turing
and von Neumann, there are a number of things to take into account.

First, one needs to be aware that he and Turing were close colleagues; before
WWII, Turing spent a year at Princeton working with von Neumann (who wanted
to hire Turing as his assistant, at the end of Turing's year there). During
WWII, Turing spent a long visit in the US (from November 1942 to March 1943),
during which he spent a lot of time at Bell Labs, where when not doing
war-work, he discussed computing machine with people there, including
Shannon. So Turing's ideas on stored program computing devices were well
known to von Neumann - who in fact seems to have always credited Turing with
the idea (see Copeland, "Turing", pp. 130-131).

Second, the 'EDVAC Report', despite the fact that it had only von Neumann's
name on it, in fact reported on a series of design discussions between he,
Eckert and Mauchly - and the latter two were rather annoyed that their
contributions were not adequately recognized in it. (Again, see Copeland,
"Turing", pp. 130-131 - although this point is treated at greater length in
other sources I don't have the time to track down.)

So von Neumann's _original_ contributions to computers may not be as big as
some think.

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Feb 10 13:20:23 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 14:20:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: imitation game movie
Message-ID: <20150210192023.421DE18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Chuck Guzis

    > "the first electronic digital computer"

I think that's a bit of a stretch; the ABC wasn't really a computer (as we
think of them). As someone (forget the name) said, for those early machines,
if you add enough adjectives, each one is the first <something>.

Here's my list (in temporal order):

ABC - first electronic digital computing device
COLOSSUS - first large-scale electronic digital computing device heavily used
	for actual work
ENIAC - first general-purpose electronic digital computing device
Manchester Baby - first operational stored-program computer
EDSAC - first stored-program computer heavily used for actual work

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Feb 10 13:23:20 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 14:23:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: imitation game movie
Message-ID: <20150210192320.2103118C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Fred Cisin

    > Or Zuse?

Oh, $DEITY; forgot about him! So modify a few of the latter entries in my
list to add 'electronic'... :-)

	Noel

From spedraja at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 05:21:19 2015
From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:21:19 +0100
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <20150210103913.GA24220@Update.UU.SE>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <7aa63e$enlfv8@fipsb03.cogeco.net>
 <20150210103913.GA24220@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CACytpF_+fvHJ7fTvuAPEpNVgTD7P3BpUgg0uzP0VneViOJ+MYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Strictly speking about its artistical values I like this movie. I think
that computing aspects are reasonably well  treated.

Kind Regards
Sergio

El martes, 10 de febrero de 2015, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
escribi?:

> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 05:12:03AM -0500, Charles E. Fox wrote:
> >
> >         When Hollywood handles a story strange things happen. We are
> > lucky they mentioned
> >  Bletchley Park at all.
>
> Indeed, the movie "Enigma" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0157583/) didn't
> include Turing at all.
>
> /P
>


-- 
Gracias | Regards - Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Gr??e | Salutations
?
-- 
*Sergio Pedraja*
-- 
mobile: +34-699-996568
twitter: @sergio_pedraja | skype: Sergio Pedraja
--
http://plus.google.com/u/0/101292256663392735405
http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja
http://www.quora.com/Sergio-Pedraja
http://spedraja.wordpress.com
https://www.xing.com/profile/Sergio_Pedraja <http://spedraja.wordpress.com/>
-----
No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que est? vi?ndolo todo

From postmaster at dunnington.plus.com  Tue Feb 10 07:41:43 2015
From: postmaster at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:41:43 +0000
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54DA0A97.1020800@dunnington.cx>

On 10/02/2015 05:21, Jon Elson wrote:
> There certainly were some real howlers in there, like the bit where Turing
> single handedly decides what info they would share with the British
> government, so as not to alert the Nazis that the Enigma code was
> broken!

I've not seen it but there's been a lot of criticism about historical 
(in)accuracy.

> Also, there is only one instance of the Bombe, while it is pretty well
> known they had a set of 350 of them at Ft. Meade running 24 hours
> a day.  And those were the NCR Bombes, running at 1800 RPM, insted
> of the one in the movie going clunk-clunk-clunk.  Some other papers
> seem to indicate there were another 350 Bombes at Bletchley.

I'm not an expert, but I think you're a bit wide of the mark in places. 
  You're evidently referring to the US Navy bombes.  Although the 
original contract was apparently for 350, only 121 were ever built, 
including prototypes, and they were used at the US Navy Communications 
Annex in Washington, not Ft Meade.  The US Army also had a small number 
of bombes built closer to a British design.  And the reproduction at 
Bletchley doesn't run at the full speed of the later British ones, 
although it's true the US Navy Bombe was a good deal faster (850rpm or 
1725rpm vs 120rpm; various sources suggest between 5 and 10 times faster 
in practice).

Bletchley itself had only a small number of bombes.  Most of the 224 
built in Britain were housed at outstations.

Because I've not seen the film, I don't know what the 
"clunk-clunk-clunk" you refer to is, but I've seen and heard the bombe 
running and I would bet it's the sound of the middle wheels advancing, 
roughly once a second on the replica, but faster on most of the British 
bombes.

> It only makes sense for there to be a big array of NCR Bombes, not
> the slow British-built ones, but
> with all the ships being sunk, how could they be sure such a shipment
> could make it across the Atlantic?

They didn't.  No bombes were ever shipped across the Atlantic.  Only 
design drawings and information were, in the care of officers from the 
US Army and Navy in 1941, and later two USN and some senior Bletchley 
staff in 1942.  The US Navy bombe was an adaptation of the British 
design from the latter exchange, and went into service in 1943.  Britain 
had been using their bombes for several years by then, of course.

Bletchley apparently did use USN bombes, but not directly.  They did it 
by sending cribs and getting the stops and settings back over encrypted 
cable, to be used for decryption of 4-rotor Naval Enigma messages at 
Bletchley Park.

> Also, they have Turing building the Bombe with his own hands. Various
> descriptions have hundreds of people at Bletchley wiring the rotors and
> doing much of the other work.  The Bombe parts must have been made
> in machine shops across England.

All made by the British Tabulating Machine Company (BTM), though they 
subcontracted some parts.

-- 
Pete

From martin at meiner.ch  Tue Feb 10 09:48:46 2015
From: martin at meiner.ch (Martin Meiner)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 15:48:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Any PDP8 for sale..?
Message-ID: <2064907592.2699617.1423583326241.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Being bitten by "vintage computer restoring" bug, I am long time looking for a reasonable condition PDP8, preferably a PDP8/L.?
Is there such a machine out there looking for a new home or can someone point me to a possible selling-place other than eBay? EBay has hardly any, and just a few weeks ago I unfortunately missed one. 

Any help or hint is highly appreciated... 

From scaron at umich.edu  Tue Feb 10 10:20:44 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:20:44 -0500
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
In-Reply-To: <54D9AC8B.5000404@jbrain.com>
References: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
 <CAEC013F-6550-445A-8CB0-285D9D785D56@nf6x.net>
 <CAA43vkUZ40ETFx+ithaU_o=fNEvJ_e24X9yxZscu9qVSYe-tsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D9AC8B.5000404@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUaVH3v6ShWxeGwdADsSuStvGMVGA2EYDgT3Ywm-fwT3g@mail.gmail.com>

Although there are many closing in the greater Metro Detroit area,
actually, much to my surprise, only one in four stores is closing in my
more immediate locality here in Washtenaw County. It's not clear if the
three remaining are franchised stores, or if they are ones that will be
converted to cell phone stores.

Best,

Sean


On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 2:00 AM, Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com> wrote:

> On 2/9/2015 5:50 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
>
>> I read somewhere that some number of them would remain open (assumedly
>> under some rebranded guise) as Sprint Stores but I'm not sure if any will
>> remain under the Radio Shack banner selling components and the like.
>>
> I envy you in the locations with closing stores.  Ours appears to be a
> keeper, so no deals...
>
> I know, that sounds horrid, but I shed my tear for RS back in the early
> 90's when the sales critter didn't know what a 36 pin ribbon cable or IDC
> Centronics 36 connector (parport) was (they had both), but was all too
> eager to sell me some batteries.
>
> Jim
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Tue Feb 10 11:04:02 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:04:02 -0500
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkW9YogMCgi2iAERmLvUTvHU0nTYxmA-e-7pE5u+GjrznA@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, wow, it's the system from Youtube... You can see it power up and run...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBKHT1GodBk

What an incredible opportunity to actually own it! And, interesting
equipment within driving distance of MI to boot, which is something you
don't see everyday... I'm curious to see what the final price will turn out
to be... The system looks real nice. Wish I had the big $$ to take that one
in!! I'm sure someone will see it gets a good home.

Imagine if the buyer of the system were to set it up on the Internet for
public access like Paul Allen did with his TOAD-1!

Best,

Sean


On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

> Is anyone on the list going to go after this?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221687223814
>
>

From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk  Tue Feb 10 13:04:26 2015
From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 19:04:26 +0000
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54DA563A.8020306@ljw.me.uk>


On 10/02/15 05:21, Jon Elson wrote:
> Forgive me if I missed earlier discussion, but has anybody seen the
> Imitation Game movie, ostensibly about Alan Turing?
I did see it, and I think I know a reasonable amount about the goings-on
at BP. It was the second museum I visited after moving to England in '94
(the first was the Science Museum!)

I thought it did a reasonable job of depicting what was done, but it may
have maintained the impression that he/they broke the code and then
sat back, rather than showing that they developed a system for doing
it every day, for every net, and that it required an on-going effort by
many others to keep the messages flowing.
>
> There certainly were some real howlers in there, like the bit where 
> Turing
> single handedly decides what info they would share with the British
> government, so as not to alert the Nazis that the Enigma code was
> broken!
He would have known of this problem of course, but this is just a way of
conveying it to the audience without introducing a whole new set of
characters. Denniston (the BP commander) probably got a bad rap, he
was a good administrator and I think he sought Turing out rather than
having him turn up randomly.
>
> Also, there is only one instance of the Bombe, while it is pretty well
> known they had a set of 350 of them at Ft. Meade running 24 hours
> a day. <snip>
The whole industrial nature of the enterprise is something I didn't realise
initially and doesn't really come across in the movie (Wikipedia says
9000 people peak at BP.) As has been said there were outstations with
the bombes - I expect the few at BP were for developing, experimenting
or verifying. I am surprised that BP itself wasn't more distributed, but
maybe it was and we don't really hear about it. Or maybe splitting key
people across shifts meant that even razing the site would only have
eliminated 1/3 of them.
>
> Also, they have Turing building the Bombe with his own hands. Various
> descriptions have hundreds of people at Bletchley wiring the rotors and
> doing much of the other work.  The Bombe parts must have been made
> in machine shops across England.
I think he was reasonably "hands-on" but yes, it was a mass-production
exercise once the concept was proven. Turing and co moved on to other
things such as improving the methods.
>
> At the end of the movie, they sort of imply by a confusing flashback that
> Turing tells the whole story of the code cracking work at Bletchley to
> the police officer.  It is well documented that he never revealed 
> anything
> to anybody about what he did there.
I think that has to go down as a film device. Without that you would have
needed narration or subtitles to explain what was going on. Maybe they
could have had something pop up at the end exonerating him from this.
>
> Any comments?
>
> Jon
>
If you're going to condense 5 years of military, academic and engineering
development into a movie then things are going to suffer. I think they did
a reasonably good job.

Lawrence


From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue Feb 10 13:49:44 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 20:49:44 +0100
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54DA60D8.1010308@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-10 18:42, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/10/2015 09:23 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> misconceptions and misinformation out there.
>> OK, my only comment to that is the stuff that says "Turing was THE
>> father of the computer, period, full stop."
>> Note the singular.
>>
>> What about Charles Babbage and (Augusta) Ada Byron?  How can you leave
>> them out?
>
> How about John Antansaoff?  From Wikip, to refresh your memory:
>
> "John Vincent Atanasoff (October 4, 1903 ? June 15, 1995) was an
> American physicist and inventor, best known for inventing the first
> electronic digital computer."

And once more noone mentions Konrad Zuse, which in my mind beat them all 
(well, Babbage excepted). :-)

	Johnny


From sales at elecplus.com  Tue Feb 10 13:54:08 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:54:08 -0600
Subject: OT: Can anyone identify this tool?
Message-ID: <01fb01d0456b$559575e0$00c061a0$@com>

https://plus.google.com/photos/106111250846948401252/albums/6114301294379699
009?banner=pwa

 

I picked it up, new, at the recycler, thinking it was a drill bit, but it is
not. It is 13 cm long, and has a light or lens of some sort at the small
end. The large end is about 3/4". It appears to be made of stainless steel.
Engraved on it is QD90-6722. I added another pic, showing the larger end.
There is a lens of some sort inside, and light shines through to the lens at
the smaller end.

 

Cindy Croxton

 


From teoz at neo.rr.com  Tue Feb 10 13:55:10 2015
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 14:55:10 -0500
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTzJCG8XW5d=4oEpc0cEzoOm=tqtMyJbL-nA3nLbxsg3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
 <CAEC013F-6550-445A-8CB0-285D9D785D56@nf6x.net>
 <CAA43vkUZ40ETFx+ithaU_o=fNEvJ_e24X9yxZscu9qVSYe-tsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTTzJCG8XW5d=4oEpc0cEzoOm=tqtMyJbL-nA3nLbxsg3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ECC1D1264E8D4197B1B15494D4D8E7BE@TeoPC>

Were all the stores corporate owned?

-----Original Message----- 
From: Eric Smith 
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 2:05 AM 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: RadioShack Store Closure List 

If I understand things correctly, the ones on the closure list are the
ones that aren't being sold to Sprint.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com


From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue Feb 10 13:55:37 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 20:55:37 +0100
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <CA+oaVqz=f=2teaR14cK8zop37CZN_fR+62hemjqragxJo2mUdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
 <CA+oaVqz=f=2teaR14cK8zop37CZN_fR+62hemjqragxJo2mUdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DA6239.8040700@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-10 19:49, Jim Carpenter wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Al  Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>> Is anyone on the list going to go after this?
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221687223814
>>
>
> Well to whoever gets them, would you *please* image the SCSI drives
> and send me a copy? Gerry tried to but had technical problems of some
> kind. I tried asking the Living Computer Museum, who received a
> duplicate system, but got no response from them. :(
>
> This system was part of CompuServe and I kinda got a thing for
> collecting as much information on the old online services as I can.
> I'm as interested in retro-online services and retro-networking as I
> am retro-computing!
>
> I know I'm weird.

Are you just looking for copies of CompuServe software, or are there any 
SC-specific things you try to recreate?
I know of at least one SC40 which is normally online and running 24/7. 
It can be reached at HECnet as SOL::
But that machine have never been at CompuServe as far as I know.

	Johnny


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 10 14:05:10 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:05:10 -0800
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DA60D8.1010308@update.uu.se>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DA60D8.1010308@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <54DA6476.8090304@sydex.com>

So what's special about "electronic" computers?

Isn't this just a mere technological refinement?  Logic gates can be 
electrical, electronic, pneumatic, hydraulic and photonic--and probably 
a few technologies that I haven't thought of.

In the game of firsts, where does Torres y Quevedo's "El Ajedrecista" 
fit in?  It would seem to have memory and perform actions based on inputs.

--Chuck

From jws at jwsss.com  Tue Feb 10 14:15:27 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:15:27 -0800
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <54DA66DF.3030300@jwsss.com>


On 2/10/2015 8:32 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> Is anyone on the list going to go after this?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221687223814
>
>
Seems the auction was pulled down.  As I looked at it at 1205pm PST, it 
showed unavailable because it was pulled.  However when looking at his 
available items, it still showed up, so the two databases were not yet 
in sync.

Maybe someone made a deal he couldn't refuse.

Jim


From b4 at gewt.net  Tue Feb 10 14:16:21 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 15:16:21 -0500
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <54DA66DF.3030300@jwsss.com>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org> <54DA66DF.3030300@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <D80C4E3C-1956-469D-ACDC-A11E4E266EC2@gewt.net>

I made a deal to acquire it and get it ASAP.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 10, 2015, at 15:15, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 2/10/2015 8:32 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
>> Is anyone on the list going to go after this?
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221687223814
> Seems the auction was pulled down.  As I looked at it at 1205pm PST, it showed unavailable because it was pulled.  However when looking at his available items, it still showed up, so the two databases were not yet in sync.
> 
> Maybe someone made a deal he couldn't refuse.
> 
> Jim
> 

From ian at platinum.net  Tue Feb 10 14:20:02 2015
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:20:02 -0800
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <D80C4E3C-1956-469D-ACDC-A11E4E266EC2@gewt.net>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org> <54DA66DF.3030300@jwsss.com>
 <D80C4E3C-1956-469D-ACDC-A11E4E266EC2@gewt.net>
Message-ID: <6C4CB099-66FF-46B6-9C8E-37534206D717@platinum.net>



> On Feb 10, 2015, at 12:16 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
> 
> I made a deal to acquire it and get it ASAP.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 

Pictures or it didn?t happen :)

Congrats! Looking forward to seeing more!

Ian

From jim at deitygraveyard.com  Tue Feb 10 14:21:04 2015
From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 15:21:04 -0500
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <54DA6239.8040700@update.uu.se>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
 <CA+oaVqz=f=2teaR14cK8zop37CZN_fR+62hemjqragxJo2mUdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA6239.8040700@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CA+oaVqxSAzoPw7wkaDwkDijHqNw1cE-+Vf+DjwzYcKtyfQJaBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
> Are you just looking for copies of CompuServe software, or are there any
> SC-specific things you try to recreate?
> I know of at least one SC40 which is normally online and running 24/7. It
> can be reached at HECnet as SOL::
> But that machine have never been at CompuServe as far as I know.

My primary interest is in the CompuServe software and data.

Jim

From b4 at gewt.net  Tue Feb 10 14:21:39 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 15:21:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <6C4CB099-66FF-46B6-9C8E-37534206D717@platinum.net>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org> <54DA66DF.3030300@jwsss.com>
 <D80C4E3C-1956-469D-ACDC-A11E4E266EC2@gewt.net>
 <6C4CB099-66FF-46B6-9C8E-37534206D717@platinum.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502101520440.1006@gewt.net>

On Tue, 10 Feb 2015, Ian McLaughlin wrote:

>
>
>> On Feb 10, 2015, at 12:16 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
>>
>> I made a deal to acquire it and get it ASAP.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>
> Pictures or it didn?t happen :)
>

It's more a temporary housing (already got an offer on it! With visitation 
rights!)

> Congrats! Looking forward to seeing more!

Pics will definitely follow...if all goes well it'll likely be public 
access!

>
> Ian

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From b4 at gewt.net  Tue Feb 10 14:22:49 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 15:22:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <CA+oaVqxSAzoPw7wkaDwkDijHqNw1cE-+Vf+DjwzYcKtyfQJaBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
 <CA+oaVqz=f=2teaR14cK8zop37CZN_fR+62hemjqragxJo2mUdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA6239.8040700@update.uu.se>
 <CA+oaVqxSAzoPw7wkaDwkDijHqNw1cE-+Vf+DjwzYcKtyfQJaBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502101521460.1006@gewt.net>

On Tue, 10 Feb 2015, Jim Carpenter wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>> Are you just looking for copies of CompuServe software, or are there any
>> SC-specific things you try to recreate?
>> I know of at least one SC40 which is normally online and running 24/7. It
>> can be reached at HECnet as SOL::
>> But that machine have never been at CompuServe as far as I know.
>
> My primary interest is in the CompuServe software and data.
>

I am going to give recovering the disks and microcode a priority.  If any 
technical assistance is required...we can easily work that out.

I want this as much as you!

> Jim
>

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Feb 10 14:35:40 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:35:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <CA+oaVqxSAzoPw7wkaDwkDijHqNw1cE-+Vf+DjwzYcKtyfQJaBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
 <CA+oaVqz=f=2teaR14cK8zop37CZN_fR+62hemjqragxJo2mUdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA6239.8040700@update.uu.se>
 <CA+oaVqxSAzoPw7wkaDwkDijHqNw1cE-+Vf+DjwzYcKtyfQJaBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502101234570.31964@deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 10 Feb 2015, Jim Carpenter wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>> Are you just looking for copies of CompuServe software, or are there any
>> SC-specific things you try to recreate?
>> I know of at least one SC40 which is normally online and running 24/7. It
>> can be reached at HECnet as SOL::
>> But that machine have never been at CompuServe as far as I know.
>
> My primary interest is in the CompuServe software and data.
>
I'm with you there, Jim.  I'd LOVE to see some of the message boards and 
file areas recovered.  Tons and tons of history in the boards alone.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Tue Feb 10 14:41:19 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 21:41:19 +0100
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <CACytpF_+fvHJ7fTvuAPEpNVgTD7P3BpUgg0uzP0VneViOJ+MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <7aa63e$enlfv8@fipsb03.cogeco.net>
 <20150210103913.GA24220@Update.UU.SE>
 <CACytpF_+fvHJ7fTvuAPEpNVgTD7P3BpUgg0uzP0VneViOJ+MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150210204119.GA24436@Update.UU.SE>

Oh, I like Enigma, it was just an example of Hollywood handling 
a story.

/P

On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 12:21:19PM +0100, SPC wrote:
> Strictly speking about its artistical values I like this movie. I think
> that computing aspects are reasonably well  treated.
> 
> Kind Regards
> Sergio
> 
> El martes, 10 de febrero de 2015, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
> escribi?:
> 
> > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 05:12:03AM -0500, Charles E. Fox wrote:
> > >
> > >         When Hollywood handles a story strange things happen. We are
> > > lucky they mentioned
> > >  Bletchley Park at all.
> >
> > Indeed, the movie "Enigma" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0157583/) didn't
> > include Turing at all.
> >
> > /P
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Gracias | Regards - Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Gr??e | Salutations
> ?
> -- 
> *Sergio Pedraja*
> -- 
> mobile: +34-699-996568
> twitter: @sergio_pedraja | skype: Sergio Pedraja
> --
> http://plus.google.com/u/0/101292256663392735405
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja
> http://www.quora.com/Sergio-Pedraja
> http://spedraja.wordpress.com
> https://www.xing.com/profile/Sergio_Pedraja <http://spedraja.wordpress.com/>
> -----
> No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que est? vi?ndolo todo

From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue Feb 10 14:43:13 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 21:43:13 +0100
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502101234570.31964@deltasoft.com>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
 <CA+oaVqz=f=2teaR14cK8zop37CZN_fR+62hemjqragxJo2mUdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA6239.8040700@update.uu.se>
 <CA+oaVqxSAzoPw7wkaDwkDijHqNw1cE-+Vf+DjwzYcKtyfQJaBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502101234570.31964@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <54DA6D61.1020009@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-10 21:35, geneb wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2015, Jim Carpenter wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se>
>> wrote:
>>> Are you just looking for copies of CompuServe software, or are there any
>>> SC-specific things you try to recreate?
>>> I know of at least one SC40 which is normally online and running
>>> 24/7. It
>>> can be reached at HECnet as SOL::
>>> But that machine have never been at CompuServe as far as I know.
>>
>> My primary interest is in the CompuServe software and data.
>>
> I'm with you there, Jim.  I'd LOVE to see some of the message boards and
> file areas recovered.  Tons and tons of history in the boards alone.

I'm sortof surprised if they let that out. I would assume that would be 
considered private information that they would be obliged to destroy, 
and definitely not just let anyone else get access to.

It reminds me of the situation with the dumps of disks from AI.MIT.EDU 
and others, that had problems just because of this for many years until 
someone could vet them.

	Johnny


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Tue Feb 10 14:56:25 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 21:56:25 +0100
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <20150210205625.GB24436@Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 08:32:16AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote:
> Is anyone on the list going to go after this?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221687223814
> 

I know LCM got one from Gerry. Bu he had at least two more. Anyone who knows where 
they went?

At least one belongs in CHM just for the compuserve connection.

I tried asking him but I don't think youtube-comments was the best way. :P

/P

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 10 14:59:15 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:59:15 -0800
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502101234570.31964@deltasoft.com>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
 <CA+oaVqz=f=2teaR14cK8zop37CZN_fR+62hemjqragxJo2mUdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA6239.8040700@update.uu.se>
 <CA+oaVqxSAzoPw7wkaDwkDijHqNw1cE-+Vf+DjwzYcKtyfQJaBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502101234570.31964@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <54DA7123.4090304@sydex.com>

On 02/10/2015 12:35 PM, geneb wrote:

> I'm with you there, Jim.  I'd LOVE to see some of the message boards and
> file areas recovered.  Tons and tons of history in the boards alone.

Wouldn't some of that stuff still be sensitive?  I'd be surprised if it 
were still there.

--Chuck



From b4 at gewt.net  Tue Feb 10 15:03:04 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 16:03:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <54DA7123.4090304@sydex.com>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
 <CA+oaVqz=f=2teaR14cK8zop37CZN_fR+62hemjqragxJo2mUdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA6239.8040700@update.uu.se>
 <CA+oaVqxSAzoPw7wkaDwkDijHqNw1cE-+Vf+DjwzYcKtyfQJaBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502101234570.31964@deltasoft.com>
 <54DA7123.4090304@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502101602500.1006@gewt.net>

On Tue, 10 Feb 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 02/10/2015 12:35 PM, geneb wrote:
>
>> I'm with you there, Jim.  I'd LOVE to see some of the message boards and
>> file areas recovered.  Tons and tons of history in the boards alone.
>
> Wouldn't some of that stuff still be sensitive?  I'd be surprised if it were 
> still there.
>

I just want the monitor. ;)

> --Chuck
>
>
>

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue Feb 10 15:21:14 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 22:21:14 +0100
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <280D55F3-EDAC-4762-859E-6E0D2B3727CB@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>
 <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150208112054.GB14680@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <E82CB6D2-0C47-4A61-870C-AE7B8B59A8D6@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150209081639.GB89656@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <280D55F3-EDAC-4762-859E-6E0D2B3727CB@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <20150210212114.GA18088@beast.freibergnet.de>

Brent Hilpert wrote:

[..]

Oh yes Brent, now, since you've corrected every single bit from what I
say'd, do you feel better?

I'm repairing TTL based circuits and old computers for more than 30 years
now and I still have to find an defective 74S240 with an Input at 2 Volts
that destroyed an Xtal-Oscilltor Output.

Oh yes, it's possible, maybe I'll struggle about one in the next 30 years,
maybe not.

Maybe I find one that read's the open input as Low and it ready High when I
connect it with an pullup Resistor to Vcc. (learned that's the real test)
For sure I won't leave it on the pcb.

Do what you want, you always know better.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From sales at elecplus.com  Tue Feb 10 15:28:21 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 15:28:21 -0600
Subject: Windows CE
Message-ID: <026901d04578$7eb6b6c0$7c242440$@com>

Someone asked awhile back for Windows CE software, but I did not save the
post.  I have a sealed package with CE 2.1, includes COA.

 

Cindy Croxton

 


From philip at philip-searle.me.uk  Tue Feb 10 15:33:13 2015
From: philip at philip-searle.me.uk (Philip Searle)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 21:33:13 +0000
Subject: begging drivers/docs for obscure old PC/Mac hardware
In-Reply-To: <D2C621F8-EA67-4370-B44C-7F99220DDA7C@typewritten.org>
References: <D2C621F8-EA67-4370-B44C-7F99220DDA7C@typewritten.org>
Message-ID: <CAKFMrrj07otQOwZ-TPyS_Bx8vW-3qUm4vrXYAtZmETQECALvxw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 February 2015 at 09:28, r.stricklin <bear at typewritten.org> wrote:

> Folks;
>
> Over time, I have accreted some assorted unusual hardware for PC and
> Macintosh, for which I lack the software to drive it. I know we have some
> terrific packrats on the list, so I'm shaking the tree, to see what might
> fall out.
>
> <snip>
>
> * Vermont Microsystems Image Manager 1024 (IM-1024) 1024x800
> PGC-compatible display adapter.
> Supposedly there were AutoCAD, GEM, Windows 1.x and 2.x drivers at one
> time. I'd love to see any of them.
>

I have an IM-1024 board. It came with two disks that may be what you are
looking for. The disks are hand-labelled as:
"ROOT DIRECTORY FOR RUNNING AUTOCAD V10 WITH VERMONT GRAPHICS ADAPTER"
and
"IM1024 COBRA (8BIT) UTILITIES DRIVER DISKETTE *DIAGS *IMDOS *VMDOS
*AUTOCAD9.x *AUTOCAD10.x *CADVANCE *CGI *CV *PCAP *VERSACAD *VDI *WIN286
VERSION 2.06 A0100x1"

I don't have access to a working 3.5" disk drive at the moment, but give me
a few days and I will make images available.

-- Philip

From jim at deitygraveyard.com  Tue Feb 10 15:37:25 2015
From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 16:37:25 -0500
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <54DA6D61.1020009@update.uu.se>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
 <CA+oaVqz=f=2teaR14cK8zop37CZN_fR+62hemjqragxJo2mUdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA6239.8040700@update.uu.se>
 <CA+oaVqxSAzoPw7wkaDwkDijHqNw1cE-+Vf+DjwzYcKtyfQJaBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502101234570.31964@deltasoft.com>
 <54DA6D61.1020009@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CA+oaVqxMe7CypqyaZpGdjrexCj9GBsP2tAn+7ef_26yvP-cLyQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
> On 2015-02-10 21:35, geneb wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 10 Feb 2015, Jim Carpenter wrote:
>>> My primary interest is in the CompuServe software and data.
>>>
>> I'm with you there, Jim.  I'd LOVE to see some of the message boards and
>> file areas recovered.  Tons and tons of history in the boards alone.
>
>
> I'm sortof surprised if they let that out. I would assume that would be
> considered private information that they would be obliged to destroy, and
> definitely not just let anyone else get access to.

Ya, I doubt we'd be lucky enough to get the public message boards and
file areas but I'm keeping my fingers crossed anyway. It's probably
just the OS and maybe the CompuServe programs subscribers interacted
with. Probably no public or private messages/files.

Jim

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Feb 10 16:15:30 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 14:15:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <20150210192023.421DE18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150210192023.421DE18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150210140637.Q16100@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 10 Feb 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> Here's my list (in temporal order):
> ABC - first electronic digital computing device
> COLOSSUS - first large-scale electronic digital computing device heavily used
> 	for actual work
> ENIAC - first general-purpose electronic digital computing device
> Manchester Baby - first operational stored-program computer
> EDSAC - first stored-program computer heavily used for actual work

Thanks for breaking it out.

Unfortunately, there is a human obsession with "first", and it often
goes with an assumption that only one category can truly be declared
a "computer", resulting in rejection of all other categories.

And, sometimes after somebody makes a decision, others will be brought
up, triggering a creative redefinition of "computer" or of "first" so
as to exclude the new entry.

Is "first" a matter of which nose or which hoof crosses the finish line?
First designed?
First built?
First sold?
First shipped?
First commercially available?
First working?
Do prototypes count?

The times, technologies, and even politics became ripe for the
development.  LOTS of people were building "firsts". Selecting
a "first" is an impractical art.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 16:32:56 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 22:32:56 +0000
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <20150210140637.Q16100@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20150210192023.421DE18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150210140637.Q16100@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CABYXGGiRq=jQ9y7C8gzV3BNUC7VR-=Dy0MU=OerNpmsHA3wo6g@mail.gmail.com>

With Baby the claim is it was the the first machine to run a program, and a
copy of the program exists. The program was chosen to be long running to
test the reliability of the machine, and validate that Williams tubes were
reliable.

Dave
G4UGM
On 10 Feb 2015 22:15, "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Feb 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> > Here's my list (in temporal order):
> > ABC - first electronic digital computing device
> > COLOSSUS - first large-scale electronic digital computing device heavily
> used
> >       for actual work
> > ENIAC - first general-purpose electronic digital computing device
> > Manchester Baby - first operational stored-program computer
> > EDSAC - first stored-program computer heavily used for actual work
>
> Thanks for breaking it out.
>
> Unfortunately, there is a human obsession with "first", and it often
> goes with an assumption that only one category can truly be declared
> a "computer", resulting in rejection of all other categories.
>
> And, sometimes after somebody makes a decision, others will be brought
> up, triggering a creative redefinition of "computer" or of "first" so
> as to exclude the new entry.
>
> Is "first" a matter of which nose or which hoof crosses the finish line?
> First designed?
> First built?
> First sold?
> First shipped?
> First commercially available?
> First working?
> Do prototypes count?
>
> The times, technologies, and even politics became ripe for the
> development.  LOTS of people were building "firsts". Selecting
> a "first" is an impractical art.
>
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred                 cisin at xenosoft.com
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Feb 10 17:01:45 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 18:01:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: imitation game movie
Message-ID: <20150210230145.907FC18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Lawrence Wilkinson

    > If you're going to condense 5 years of military, academic and
    > engineering development into a movie then things are going to suffer.
    > I think they did a reasonably good job.

If the former's what they'd done, I'd agree.

(And I can think of historical movies that have done that, and still produced
a movie that was both very watchable, and reasonably accurate; e.g. in "The
Gathering Storm", they've made Ralph Wigram stand in for a bunch of people,
including him, who fed data to Churchill. I can live with that; too many
characters would just confuse the average viewer.)

But the Imitation Game writer(s) did a lot more than that. E.g. the whole
bogus 'Turing versus his Blimpian manager who wanted to shut his project
down' meme. That's completely bogus, 173 degrees out of phase with the truth,
and clearly added purely to give, well, I'm not sure what.

The thing is that what he and the others at BP (although he was primus inter
pares, there were others such as Welchman, Tutte, etc who made massive,
remarkable additions - and, as you point out, in the end it was an
industrial-scale enterprise) did was so amazing, and they had to struggle
against such difficulties, they didn't _need_ to 'sex up' the plot with that
kind of stupid cliche.

As far as I'm concerned, all those lame hackneyed plot elements just prove
that the script-writer(s) were distinctly third-rate - because if they were
actually any good, there's more than enough powerful material in Turing's
actual story to make a much, much better movie, without relying on that kind
of pathetic bilge.

	Noel

From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 17:58:46 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 16:58:46 -0700
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
In-Reply-To: <ECC1D1264E8D4197B1B15494D4D8E7BE@TeoPC>
References: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
 <CAEC013F-6550-445A-8CB0-285D9D785D56@nf6x.net>
 <CAA43vkUZ40ETFx+ithaU_o=fNEvJ_e24X9yxZscu9qVSYe-tsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTTzJCG8XW5d=4oEpc0cEzoOm=tqtMyJbL-nA3nLbxsg3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECC1D1264E8D4197B1B15494D4D8E7BE@TeoPC>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRR-qYY2Jn3=4=c=-vTsWtxEo+P-ndxiGw-pGWaS-PDvw@mail.gmail.com>

I wrote:
> If I understand things correctly, the ones on the closure list are the
> ones that aren't being sold to Sprint.

TeoZ <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
> Were all the stores corporate owned?

All of the stores on that closure list, and all of the ones being sold
to Sprint, are corporate owned.  There are also franchise stores, and
the bankruptcy doesn't directly affect those. However, if this kills
off Radio Shack corporation, then obviously the franchises will lose
also.  It's hard for me to envision Radio Shack corporation being able
to maintain the supply chain for just the franchises without some
really major changes, which would likely make them even less relevant
than they are now.

From evan.linwood at eastek.com.au  Tue Feb 10 18:00:23 2015
From: evan.linwood at eastek.com.au (Evan Linwood)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 11:00:23 +1100
Subject: Can anyone identify this tool?
In-Reply-To: <01fb01d0456b$559575e0$00c061a0$@com>
References: <01fb01d0456b$559575e0$00c061a0$@com>
Message-ID: <002d01d0458d$bc971e70$35c55b50$@eastek.com.au>

Hi Cindy,
This looks like the head end of the handpiece of a dental video imaging
system.
Usually these are used in disposal sheaths which are thrown away after each
use, and in other cases where the head end optics are detachable from the
handgrip containing the CCD (as looks to be the case here) the dentist may
sterilise this in an autoclave between uses (allowing use without sheaths,
problem being that the prism optics will degrade over time).
I'm sure we all have 'fond' memories of being on the end of one of these at
various times.
I used to develop a software product in the dental industry (very
entertaining days), and that unit does look familiar but I can't remember
the name of the manufacturer.
I have a small stack of similar (old) units in the garage, I keep telling
myself I should get one out and check my own teeth..
Cheers Evan


-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics
Plus
Sent: Wednesday, 11 February 2015 6:54 AM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: OT: Can anyone identify this tool?

https://plus.google.com/photos/106111250846948401252/albums/6114301294379699
009?banner=pwa

 

I picked it up, new, at the recycler, thinking it was a drill bit, but it is
not. It is 13 cm long, and has a light or lens of some sort at the small
end. The large end is about 3/4". It appears to be made of stainless steel.
Engraved on it is QD90-6722. I added another pic, showing the larger end.
There is a lens of some sort inside, and light shines through to the lens at
the smaller end.

 

Cindy Croxton

 


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 19:27:11 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 20:27:11 -0500
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DA4E31.4040903@sydex.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <07db01d0455a$e48e2b40$adaa81c0$@gmail.com>
 <54DA4E31.4040903@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcPHpqMCJ81d-7dQQCEJmRZWx-0r+j5U4J1x+s3=8W=tQ@mail.gmail.com>

> In fact, it could be argued that the ball-and-disc integrator was more
> responsible for the eventual Allied victory in WWII than Turing's work was.

The real reason for Allied victory was that we had more Russians then they had.

--
Will

From teoz at neo.rr.com  Tue Feb 10 19:49:21 2015
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 20:49:21 -0500
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRR-qYY2Jn3=4=c=-vTsWtxEo+P-ndxiGw-pGWaS-PDvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
 <CAEC013F-6550-445A-8CB0-285D9D785D56@nf6x.net>
 <CAA43vkUZ40ETFx+ithaU_o=fNEvJ_e24X9yxZscu9qVSYe-tsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTTzJCG8XW5d=4oEpc0cEzoOm=tqtMyJbL-nA3nLbxsg3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECC1D1264E8D4197B1B15494D4D8E7BE@TeoPC>
 <CAFrGgTRR-qYY2Jn3=4=c=-vTsWtxEo+P-ndxiGw-pGWaS-PDvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F592A188F2C7410D92EA270B9817C4F1@TeoPC>

They could have overseas stores under a different corporation setup, kind of 
like how Commodore had a US and UK branch. Its not like RS actually makes 
anything they just resell other companies stuff so a franchise store might 
still be able to buy and stock the same stuff. Even the Sprint owned stores 
have to be stocking some RS products since they are not taking over the 
whole storefront.



-----Original Message----- 
From: Eric Smith
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 6:58 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: RadioShack Store Closure List

I wrote:
> If I understand things correctly, the ones on the closure list are the
> ones that aren't being sold to Sprint.

TeoZ <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
> Were all the stores corporate owned?

All of the stores on that closure list, and all of the ones being sold
to Sprint, are corporate owned.  There are also franchise stores, and
the bankruptcy doesn't directly affect those. However, if this kills
off Radio Shack corporation, then obviously the franchises will lose
also.  It's hard for me to envision Radio Shack corporation being able
to maintain the supply chain for just the franchises without some
really major changes, which would likely make them even less relevant
than they are now. 


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 19:55:21 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 20:55:21 -0500
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DA4BDE.1060709@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <54DA23E7.20008@dunnington.plus.com>
 <54DA41D5.3070204@pico-systems.com>
 <54DA4BDE.1060709@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+de04o2Ge0RtFxpEGKQeRRyKHn0bUVvgi6JnWHfnSyxtOA@mail.gmail.com>

I do not know much at all about the intricacies of British military
contracting, but for the US stuff...

> It's well documented.  Production initially stopped at 96, but then the
> British asked the US to make 50 more specifically to work on the Naval
> Enigma, but by the time 25 more were built and in service, there was no
> need for more.

NEVER trust government contract or production documentation 100
percent. Maybe not even 50 percent. And I mean the primary source
documentation!

I do not mean some sort of conspiracy cover up nonsense (although with
sensitive stuff like crypto, one has to wonder), but just the super
chaotic nature of the era.

During the war, contracts were very often hastily written, sometimes
after the production started, were often extremely vague. Contracts
were routinely breached (but in a good way, but sometimes not) when
some general screamed for more gizmos made yesterday. Contracts were
also routinely extended and supplemented, so historians have to be
careful if they have the entire history of a contract, or just a
piece. They also need to know all the intricacies of the system,
knowing the difference of a contract and an order, and how the
accounting and serializing works, and then realizing that production
was often faster than the paper trail it made. Lots of things that are
not supposed to exist because of a cancelled project or contract did
see the light of day, and likewise, lots of things that supposedly
were made simply vanished. And then there are plain old typos. Many
more than you might expect!

I am not trying to beat you up or anything, just issuing a warning. I
have been a World War 2 era military radio and radar collector for
some 25 or so years (and now getting out of it - trade old radar stuff
for old computers? Ha!), and have seen just how fucked up it really
was. Never trust the numbers!

--
Will

From jws at jwsss.com  Tue Feb 10 19:59:23 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 17:59:23 -0800
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRR-qYY2Jn3=4=c=-vTsWtxEo+P-ndxiGw-pGWaS-PDvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
 <CAEC013F-6550-445A-8CB0-285D9D785D56@nf6x.net>
 <CAA43vkUZ40ETFx+ithaU_o=fNEvJ_e24X9yxZscu9qVSYe-tsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTTzJCG8XW5d=4oEpc0cEzoOm=tqtMyJbL-nA3nLbxsg3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECC1D1264E8D4197B1B15494D4D8E7BE@TeoPC>
 <CAFrGgTRR-qYY2Jn3=4=c=-vTsWtxEo+P-ndxiGw-pGWaS-PDvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DAB77B.4060903@jwsss.com>


On 2/10/2015 3:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> I wrote:
>> If I understand things correctly, the ones on the closure list are the
>> ones that aren't being sold to Sprint.
> TeoZ <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
>> Were all the stores corporate owned?
> All of the stores on that closure list, and all of the ones being sold
> to Sprint, are corporate owned.  There are also franchise stores, and
> the bankruptcy doesn't directly affect those. However, if this kills
> off Radio Shack corporation, then obviously the franchises will lose
> also.  It's hard for me to envision Radio Shack corporation being able
> to maintain the supply chain for just the franchises without some
> really major changes, which would likely make them even less relevant
> than they are now.
I had figured this bunch was related in some way to Radio Shack as they 
are electronic component distributor, and use a very similar logo.  Are 
they related to the fact that Radio Shack was also Allied radio?  What 
happen(ed) to Allied in all this.

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/

A pretty famous competitor at  one time for mail order was the Kansas 
City based Burstein Appleby company.  They had a crash many years ago, 
and shut down all the BA store fronts, and so forth, but the company is 
still chugging along as a distributor in the original BA building in KC 
and other warehouses.

Maybe the distribution part of the business if it isn't burdened with 
all the crushing problems and debt of the parent might survive to 
support the franchises, assuming they are not having a similar or worse 
business fate as the corporate stores.
Thanks
Jim


From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 20:26:38 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 19:26:38 -0700
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
In-Reply-To: <54DAB77B.4060903@jwsss.com>
References: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
 <CAEC013F-6550-445A-8CB0-285D9D785D56@nf6x.net>
 <CAA43vkUZ40ETFx+ithaU_o=fNEvJ_e24X9yxZscu9qVSYe-tsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTTzJCG8XW5d=4oEpc0cEzoOm=tqtMyJbL-nA3nLbxsg3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECC1D1264E8D4197B1B15494D4D8E7BE@TeoPC>
 <CAFrGgTRR-qYY2Jn3=4=c=-vTsWtxEo+P-ndxiGw-pGWaS-PDvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DAB77B.4060903@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSKWm_+TJfOCoLUYvendMugvkxz=Q8ryFQrDZrj18-FjA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 6:59 PM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> I had figured this bunch was related in some way to Radio Shack as they are
> electronic component distributor, and use a very similar logo.

Tandy bought Allied in 1970, merged Allied Radio into Radio Shack, and
sold off Allied Electronics in 1981.

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 10 20:28:47 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 18:28:47 -0800
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcPHpqMCJ81d-7dQQCEJmRZWx-0r+j5U4J1x+s3=8W=tQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <07db01d0455a$e48e2b40$adaa81c0$@gmail.com> <54DA4E31.4040903@sydex.com>
 <CANij+dcPHpqMCJ81d-7dQQCEJmRZWx-0r+j5U4J1x+s3=8W=tQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DABE5F.2020707@sydex.com>

On 02/10/2015 05:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
>> In fact, it could be argued that the ball-and-disc integrator was more
>> responsible for the eventual Allied victory in WWII than Turing's work was.
>
> The real reason for Allied victory was that we had more Russians then they had.

Certainly the case.  Where would the west have been without the First 
Ukrainian Front?

WWII was big enough that everyone had bragging rights.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 10 21:32:29 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 19:32:29 -0800
Subject: RadioShack Store Closure List
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSKWm_+TJfOCoLUYvendMugvkxz=Q8ryFQrDZrj18-FjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00d001d044bc$ca4c8fe0$5ee5afa0$@net>
 <CAEC013F-6550-445A-8CB0-285D9D785D56@nf6x.net>
 <CAA43vkUZ40ETFx+ithaU_o=fNEvJ_e24X9yxZscu9qVSYe-tsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTTzJCG8XW5d=4oEpc0cEzoOm=tqtMyJbL-nA3nLbxsg3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECC1D1264E8D4197B1B15494D4D8E7BE@TeoPC>
 <CAFrGgTRR-qYY2Jn3=4=c=-vTsWtxEo+P-ndxiGw-pGWaS-PDvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DAB77B.4060903@jwsss.com>
 <CAFrGgTSKWm_+TJfOCoLUYvendMugvkxz=Q8ryFQrDZrj18-FjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DACD4D.40100@sydex.com>

On 02/10/2015 06:26 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> Tandy bought Allied in 1970, merged Allied Radio into Radio Shack, and
> sold off Allied Electronics in 1981.

I remember visiting their store on north western avenue in Chicago.  Not 
far from the Black Panther headquarters.

The joy of those days was south Michigan Ave.--"Surplus Row".

--Chuck



From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Feb 10 21:52:08 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 21:52:08 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com>

On 02/10/2015 11:42 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/10/2015 09:23 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> misconceptions and misinformation out there.
>> OK, my only comment to that is the stuff that says 
>> "Turing was THE
>> father of the computer, period, full stop."
>> Note the singular.
>>
>> What about Charles Babbage and (Augusta) Ada Byron?  How 
>> can you leave
>> them out?
>
> How about John Antansaoff?  From Wikip, to refresh your 
> memory:
>
Atanasoff and Berry did a GREAT job, but it wasn't actually 
a "computer" by
the Turing definition.  It took instructions from cards and 
executed them as
they were read on the card reader.  I think it may have had 
some ability
to suppress instructions on some condition, but couldn't 
actually do a branch.
Then, after completing the calculation the built it for, the 
university junked it and
all that was left were some drawings in a few binders.  They 
published NOTHING
about the machine itself, and it was largely unknown for 
DECADES!

They probably could have advanced some areas of computing if 
they had
published the technical details of their machine.  It was 
pretty obvious that
if they had actually needed a stored program computer with 
branching
ability, they were sharp enough they could have built such a 
machine, but they
just didn't need it for the class of equations they were 
solving.

So, as far as I'm concerned, Atanasoff and Berry are a VERY 
interesting footnote
in early computing, but didn't actually contribute directly 
to the development
of computers.  Atanasoff sure upset some people when he 
testified in
the Honeywell vs. Sperry Rand suit.

Now, my freshman adviser at Washington University was 
William Papian,
the grad student who worked with Jay Forrester on coincident 
current
core memory!  Wow, talk about something that REALLY affected the
development of computers!


Jon


From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Feb 10 21:57:06 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 21:57:06 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <07db01d0455a$e48e2b40$adaa81c0$@gmail.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <07db01d0455a$e48e2b40$adaa81c0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DAD312.7020102@pico-systems.com>

On 02/10/2015 11:56 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
> Just because Turing didn't build a computer doesn't mean 
> he wasn't the father of computing. The work he did defined 
> both what a computer is, and allowed us to divide problems 
> into those which can be solved on a computer, and those 
> where the computer can guess the answer enough times that 
> it will eventually get it right. Dave Wade G4UGM 
OH, I don't mean to take away from the large contributions 
Turing made!
He contributed some REAL fundamental understanding of what 
you needed
to have to make a computer useful and flexible.  I was just 
bugged by
some places that claim he is the SINGULAR father, period.  
That is
clearly false, a LOT of other incredible people contributed 
a lot of
really great ideas.

And, Alan Turing is credited with the design of the ACE, 
which was built and run before
he died.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Feb 10 22:04:22 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 22:04:22 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <20150210183107.0702D18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150210183107.0702D18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54DAD4C6.1010508@pico-systems.com>

On 02/10/2015 12:31 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Jon Elson
>
>      > such as to not evacuate Coventry when they knew it was next for getting
>      > blitzed.
>
> Ah, this is alas an urban legend ('bogo-meme', to coin a nice neologism);
> started, IIRC, by Winterbotham.
OK, thanks for clearing that up.  I didn't know.
>
>
>      > there are some descriptions that the actual wiring of the rotors was
>      > done AT Bletchley
>
> I'd love to read about that - do you know/recall where you saw it?
Ugh, I've been reading up on this stuff for more than a 
year, now, and did not keep
links.
>
>      > If a German spy was to get his hands on the drawings for even one
>      > (wired) rotor, they would have realized how thoroughly the British had
>      > penetrated the Enigma system
>
> I am less certain of this. I seem to recall (alas, too busy to look it up,
> unless someone's really interested) that the Germans had something of a
> modern concept of code security, where it's assumed that the actual ciphering
> machine is compromised, and security depends on the security of the keys.
>
> Given the wide deployment of Enigma at the tactical level, the odds were good
> that the machine itself had been compromised. So for them to have found out
> that the British had the rotor wiring would not have been a big surprise, I
> would expect.
Yes, but they might assume the Brits were just using 
hand-operated copies of Enigma to
try to decode one message at a time.  If they had an idea of 
the scale of the Bombe machines,
and some of the tricks the B.P. guys were exploiting, they 
would have realized
the Enigma was badly compromised.
> However, had they gotten any kind of detailed description of the Bombe, it
> would have not been that hard to work out that its use was to break into
> Enigma. In that sense, the Bombe's overall design was in fact a bigger secret
> than the fact that they had the rotor wiring.
Yes, for sure.
> And of course as a result of the XX system, the British were fairly sure that
> there were no German spies in the UK at the time, anyway.
>
The XX system??  What's that?

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Feb 10 22:12:52 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 22:12:52 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DA60D8.1010308@update.uu.se>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DA60D8.1010308@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <54DAD6C4.70908@pico-systems.com>

On 02/10/2015 01:49 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
> And once more noone mentions Konrad Zuse, which in my mind 
> beat them all (well, Babbage excepted). :-)
>
>     Johnny
>
>
But, Zuse was another consigned to the dark history, hardly 
ANYBODY knew
about what he had done, although it turns out it was QUITE 
considerable!

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Feb 10 22:18:38 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 22:18:38 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <20150210191309.2AC0118C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150210191309.2AC0118C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54DAD81E.9090401@pico-systems.com>

On 02/10/2015 01:13 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Jon Elson
>
>      > How about John von Neumann? Geez, I think he really ranks above Turing,
>      > at least as far as building real machines.
>
> This is unclear, for a whole host of reasons.
>
> First, you should look at Turing's ACE.
Yes, I'm aware of the ACE.
> Turing was heavily involved in early computer work from the end of WWII until
> his death (e.g. at the start of that period, he attended the Symposium on
> Large Scale Digital Calculating Machinery at Hardvard in February, 1947).
Yes, and I think that's where the Harvard Architecture vs. 
von Neumann architecture
definition came from.
> Second, when assessing the relative important of the contributions of Turing
> and von Neumann, there are a number of things to take into account.
>
> First, one needs to be aware that he and Turing were close colleagues
Yes, aware of that, too.
> ; before
> WWII, Turing spent a year at Princeton working with von Neumann (who wanted
> to hire Turing as his assistant, at the end of Turing's year there). During
> WWII, Turing spent a long visit in the US (from November 1942 to March 1943),
> during which he spent a lot of time at Bell Labs, where when not doing
> war-work, he discussed computing machine with people there, including
> Shannon. So Turing's ideas on stored program computing devices were well
> known to von Neumann - who in fact seems to have always credited Turing with
> the idea (see Copeland, "Turing", pp. 130-131).
>
> Second, the 'EDVAC Report', despite the fact that it had only von Neumann's
> name on it, in fact reported on a series of design discussions between he,
> Eckert and Mauchly - and the latter two were rather annoyed that their
> contributions were not adequately recognized in it.
Yes, I should have included Eckert and Mauchly, too, but the 
list was getting long.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 10 22:22:19 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 20:22:19 -0800
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>

On 02/10/2015 07:52 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

> Now, my freshman adviser at Washington University was William Papian,
> the grad student who worked with Jay Forrester on coincident current
> core memory!  Wow, talk about something that REALLY affected the
> development of computers!

Any more so, than, say, William Gardner Pfann?

The point is that I believe that inventions have their "time", wherein a 
bunch of seemingly unrelated discoveries come to incubate a great leap 
forward in knowledge.

Which is why Galileo didn't invent television or stored-program computers.

--Chuck





From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Feb 10 22:34:14 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 22:34:14 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DABE5F.2020707@sydex.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <07db01d0455a$e48e2b40$adaa81c0$@gmail.com> <54DA4E31.4040903@sydex.com>
 <CANij+dcPHpqMCJ81d-7dQQCEJmRZWx-0r+j5U4J1x+s3=8W=tQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DABE5F.2020707@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54DADBC6.7080902@pico-systems.com>

On 02/10/2015 08:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>
>
> WWII was big enough that everyone had bragging rights.
>
Another really great story is the X gerat, (X equipment in 
English) that sent narrow,
high frequency radio beams over England.  the bombers 
followed the beams to
their targets.  See 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams

Very interesting stuff.

Jon



From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Feb 10 23:56:53 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 23:56:53 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com> <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com>

On 02/10/2015 10:22 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/10/2015 07:52 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> Now, my freshman adviser at Washington University was 
>> William Papian,
>> the grad student who worked with Jay Forrester on 
>> coincident current
>> core memory!  Wow, talk about something that REALLY 
>> affected the
>> development of computers!
>
> Any more so, than, say, William Gardner Pfann?
Well, I think his inventions came just a bit later, and sure 
made their mark on
ALL areas of electronics, not just computers.
>
> The point is that I believe that inventions have their 
> "time", wherein a bunch of seemingly unrelated discoveries 
> come to incubate a great leap forward in knowledge.
>
Oh, absolutely!  There was a lot of work on using ferrite 
rings as storage
and logic elements at that time, but Forrester and Papian really
extended what had been done before, and the coincident current
scheme was really ELEGANT and made large arrays of fast memory
practical.  The bigger you built the array, the more memory 
you got
with small increments in the number of drivers.

But, yes, if they hadn't invented it, somebody else would 
have had the
same idea within a relatively short time, I'll bet.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 11 00:38:59 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 22:38:59 -0800
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com> <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
 <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54DAF903.5070306@sydex.com>

On 02/10/2015 09:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

> Oh, absolutely!  There was a lot of work on using ferrite rings as storage
> and logic elements at that time, but Forrester and Papian really
> extended what had been done before, and the coincident current
> scheme was really ELEGANT and made large arrays of fast memory
> practical.  The bigger you built the array, the more memory you got
> with small increments in the number of drivers.

Didn't coincident-current relays come before that (as used, for example, 
in telephone switching equipment)?  So the basic idea was there.

I've always been fascinated by magnetic core logic; both using "hard" 
magnetics (e.g. Univac SS) and "soft" (e.g. Parametrons).  I wonder if 
magnetic core for memory hadn't been developed, would we have developed 
electrostatic or some other technology to the same density?

Would we have developed ultra-fast recirculating memory?

--Chuck



From evan at snarc.net  Tue Feb 10 23:35:23 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 00:35:23 -0500
Subject: Crowdfunding for history book
Message-ID: <54DAEA1B.3090708@snarc.net>

Hello cctalk'ers,

Hopefully this message won't offend anyone --- I recognize that I might, 
and I apologize in advance if it does.

As many of you know, I've been in the vintage computing hobby for about 
a decade. The first person I met was Sellam Ismail. He helped guide me 
as a newb collector of handheld/pocket computers.

Somehow that led to me co-founding MARCH, publishing a 1,000-subscriber 
newsletter for a few years, rescuing a mainframe here and there, making 
the VCF East into a premier event, and becoming a "talking head" 
everywhere from BBC Radio to the Wall Street Journal. (My personal site 
is www.snarc.net if you really want to know more ... bring popcorn.)

Now I'm asking for some personal help from the community.

I'm trying something radical: crowd funding, so that I can finally 
finish the decade-long project of writing my book about the history of 
mobile computing.

You can imagine how frustrated I feel when telling my family "I'm in the 
The Wall Street Journal!" but that I'm also dangerously under-employed 
(having been spit out of the technical journalism field after 16 years). 
It does not compute.

Please visit this link for more information: 
http://fundrazr.com/campaigns/3wNcc.

Thank you,
- Evan

From scaron at umich.edu  Tue Feb 10 15:51:36 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 16:51:36 -0500
Subject: begging drivers/docs for obscure old PC/Mac hardware
In-Reply-To: <D2C621F8-EA67-4370-B44C-7F99220DDA7C@typewritten.org>
References: <D2C621F8-EA67-4370-B44C-7F99220DDA7C@typewritten.org>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUjbOu4hyH86pCan54wWOPqGta1iNYq4zQh9q=b1GrCEg@mail.gmail.com>

I actually have an old MacUser or Macworld magazine that briefly mentions
the MacBlitz just in the context of some silly article where they tried to
build the most expensive Mac system possible by fitting all these obscure
and expensive options... it might quote a list price (if you were curious?)
but beyond that, your description here was more revealing than anything
they wrote in Macworld or MacUser.

It's very interesting to hear that the board was based on the Clipper CPU,
of all things. I wonder if it ran as a stand-alone computer with a separate
operating system image (like a MacIvory, or an Orange Micro card) or if it
was just used as an applications accelerator like those NuBus DSP cards
they used to sell. Even in lieu of any software, I think the board will
make a neat little piece of RISC ephemera. I used to have a few Intergraph
2400 systems myself... wish I had saved a CPU module before they got
binned. You don't see many examples of the Clipper around anymore.

Best,

Sean



On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 4:28 AM, r.stricklin <bear at typewritten.org> wrote:

> Folks;
>
> Over time, I have accreted some assorted unusual hardware for PC and
> Macintosh, for which I lack the software to drive it. I know we have some
> terrific packrats on the list, so I'm shaking the tree, to see what might
> fall out.
>
> * DuPont Imaging Systems MacBlitz NuBus RISC processor. Apparently this is
> a Clipper CPU which runs UNIX independently of the host Macintosh, with IPC
> of some description. Has its own ethernet and SCSI interfaces. The Googles
> know almost nothing about this.
>
> * Vermont Microsystems Image Manager 1024 (IM-1024) 1024x800
> PGC-compatible display adapter.
> Supposedly there were AutoCAD, GEM, Windows 1.x and 2.x drivers at one
> time. I'd love to see any of them.
>
> * Matrox "Space Machine" SM-1280 solid modeling graphics adapter. I'm not
> sure what kind of drivers were available; possibly it was just a set of
> development libraries for programming the board yourself.
>
> * Matrox PG-1280 (and/or the Microchannel equivalent MC-1281) graphics
> accelerator. I'd love to see any DOS-era PC drivers, or the PRPQ that let
> this board work under AIX on an RT. Somebody on the VC Forum thought he had
> these installed on a running system, but I never heard any further news.
>
> * Hercules Chrome TIGA (40 MHz TMS-34020) graphics accelerator. I have a
> Windows 3.1 driver for this, but I'm not sure the card is set up correctly.
> Mainly looking for documentation here.
>
> * IBM 5364 S/36 PC SSP, MCODE, and/or DOS host software. Somebody on the
> list kindly sent me a disk image of just enough of the DOS host software to
> prove my 5364 runs, but it's not a complete install and is missing some
> features I wanted to enable (keyboard maps mainly, IIRC). In addition,
> without the MCODE floppies the system can't be reconfigured for the various
> communications options (bisync, SDLC, etc.) my host PC has installed.
>
>
> Shoot, I thought there was something else, too. I guess I'll think of it
> eventually.
>
> Anyone?
>
>
> ok
> bear.
>
> --
> until further notice
>
>

From billdeg at buzz1.com  Tue Feb 10 23:03:11 2015
From: billdeg at buzz1.com (B Degnan)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 00:03:11 -0500
Subject: SIMH LGP-30 Progress.
Message-ID: <3f56cda3$7676f73a$104ae2fd$@buzz1.com>



Update on my attempts to bootstrap the SIMH Royal Precision Electronic 
Computer model LGP-30. 

I have been able to get through a lot more of the simulator-equivalent 
processing steps to match the input of the bootstrap programs via the 
native Flexowriter.  I have been able to discover the syntax and basic I/O 
via trial and error, and a lot of reading.  I believe that loading the 
bootstrap manually is a must; one cannot use or create tapes otherwise.  
Most SIMH's have some kind of software guide, the LGP-30 has none.  I don't 
think this SIMH has the bootstrap pre-loaded.  I am unaware of anyone who 
is using the SIMH simulator, although I have seen two non-SIMH LGP-30 
simulators.  One is in German. 

In order to enter instructions into memory I first learned how to translate 
code from the various actual papertape sources, for example...   

"flexowriter entry"> 6300 P 0000'  

becomes  

sim> d -a 6300 10000000  

where 6300 = memory loc in drum memory, 1000 = P, 0000 = accumulator 
address (?).  You can't store a "P" or "p" in memory.  You have to convert 
to its Flexo binary equiv.  Same goes for all instructions in the LGP-30 
repertoire.  The hardest part is finding ways to enter Flexowriter key 
input via a modern keyboard, using SIMH commands. 

It's all pretty slow going to patch together what I think would be a 
workable bootstrap install process, but I expect to have to try a number of 
variations before I get any response from the machine.  I have a bootstrap 
but the hard part if the Flexowriter emulation.  Who knows, maybe I will be 
able to contribute a software guide from all of this.  I will document what 
I find and post on my web site, vintagecomputer.net.  

Bill

 

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 01:24:25 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 02:24:25 -0500
Subject: imitation game movie
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com> <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
 <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com> <54DAF903.5070306@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <A396CDF5FB3C412E837AF10DF48DEEF0@310e2>

> Would we have developed ultra-fast recirculating 
> memory?

Now there's an idea (has it been tried?); the 
equivalent of an acoustic delay line memory using 
fiber optics...

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: <General at classiccmp.org>; 
"Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 1:38 AM
Subject: Re: imitation game movie


> On 02/10/2015 09:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> Oh, absolutely!  There was a lot of work on 
>> using ferrite rings as storage
>> and logic elements at that time, but Forrester 
>> and Papian really
>> extended what had been done before, and the 
>> coincident current
>> scheme was really ELEGANT and made large arrays 
>> of fast memory
>> practical.  The bigger you built the array, the 
>> more memory you got
>> with small increments in the number of drivers.
>
> Didn't coincident-current relays come before 
> that (as used, for example, in telephone 
> switching equipment)?  So the basic idea was 
> there.
>
> I've always been fascinated by magnetic core 
> logic; both using "hard" magnetics (e.g. Univac 
> SS) and "soft" (e.g. Parametrons).  I wonder if 
> magnetic core for memory hadn't been developed, 
> would we have developed electrostatic or some 
> other technology to the same density?
>
> Would we have developed ultra-fast recirculating 
> memory?
>
> --Chuck
>
> 


From silent700 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 01:39:39 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 01:39:39 -0600
Subject: Anyone need spare 11/05 - 11/10 keys?
In-Reply-To: <20150210145315.DD01518C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150210145315.DD01518C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SH=83Pz9OOqzuo2m1D+YKWnmvVQySyEy0MmpT48xJ-ojw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> One thing I need to check, before I get a whole stack made: does anyone know
> for sure if all 11/05's and 11/10's use the same key? (This is a standard,
> flat 'Yale'-type key, not the cylindrical key used in the 11/45's, etc.) The
> two I have do, but they came from the same place, and so might have been
> re-keyed to use the same key.

I have two 11/05s and one key between them.  The key fits both
machines' locks and turns them as expected.  The key is made by
Chicago Lock Co. and is stamped "GRB2."

(If they are all the same and you have a bunch made, I'd like two please.)

-j

From bqt at update.uu.se  Wed Feb 11 02:48:53 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 09:48:53 +0100
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DAD6C4.70908@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DA60D8.1010308@update.uu.se> <54DAD6C4.70908@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54DB1775.7020404@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-11 05:12, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/10/2015 01:49 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>
>> And once more noone mentions Konrad Zuse, which in my mind beat them
>> all (well, Babbage excepted). :-)
>>
>>     Johnny
>>
>>
> But, Zuse was another consigned to the dark history, hardly ANYBODY knew
> about what he had done, although it turns out it was QUITE considerable!

That's the problem of being on the loosing side in a war. :-)

	Johnny


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 03:19:11 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 04:19:11 -0500
Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage?
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimn1g26V8R4eFPC7AVqQNDNxMXF=PYmu5uimxfy9Oh7G5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimn1g26V8R4eFPC7AVqQNDNxMXF=PYmu5uimxfy9Oh7G5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkSGYPMRpJCAsDM0sDv-Uz+Sz-bXW=UoWroCt7AY7TKhQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 1:23 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Has anyone here gone through the process of reparing leaky NiCd
>> damage to an A4000 motherboard?
>
> make sure to read this? some of them are on there backwards from
> the factory.
> http://amiga.serveftp.net/A3640_capacitor.html

Handy tip!  No, none of my caps are on backwards.  Yes, every single
one on the A3640 has leaked.

Thanks, all, for your input.  I am going to take a stab at
refurb/repair, but in case the damage is too extensive, I'm willing to
entertain replacement down the road.

-ethan

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Feb 11 06:51:04 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 07:51:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: imitation game movie
Message-ID: <20150211125104.8E6D718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Chuck Guzis

    > The point is that a lot of people were responsible for the development
    > of mechanical computation (I include electrical and electronic in this
    > definition).

Just like the Internet... :-)

    > In fact, it could be argued that the ball-and-disc integrator was more
    > responsible for the eventual Allied victory in WWII than Turing's work
    > was.

Sorry, are you referring to his work on computers, or his work in code-breaking
too? If this latter, I would have to disagree. 

Respected military historians have suggested (of course, such alternative
history is always speculative, one can't prove it) that the code-breaking work
of the Allies shortened WWII by up to two years. I doubt mechanical
fire-control computers (which is the primary military use of ball-and-disc
integrators, as I understand it) had that significant an effect.


    > From: Johnny Billquist

    > And once more noone mentions Konrad Zuse, which in my mind beat them
    > all

Well, two things. (And don't get me wrong, I admire Zuse and his work.)

First, Zuse's work didn't really have much impact. You may disagree, but my
sense is that if that bomb that destroyed the Z1 had gotten him too, the
post-WWII world would still look pretty much like the real one.

Second, his early machines (Z1-Z3) weren't stored-program (in the sense of
'one memory holds both instructions and data'). Yes, yes, I know the Z3 can
(with a monstrous kludge) be Turing-complete, but it still wasn't
stored-program - which to my mind, is _the_ key aspect of a real 'computer'.

Interestingly enough, Babbage's machines weren't stored-program either; they
had separate instruction and data tapes, like Zuse's (although they had
conditional branching, which the Z1-Z3 didn't). Turing's invention of thex
stored-program in 'On Computable Numbers' was really a fundamental leap.

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Feb 11 07:06:58 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 08:06:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: imitation game movie
Message-ID: <20150211130658.879D918C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Chuck Guzis

    > So what's special about "electronic" computers?
    > Isn't this just a mere technological refinement? Logic gates can be 
    > electrical, electronic, pneumatic, hydraulic and photonic

There's a saying that a big enough quantitative difference becomes a
qualitative difference. So electronic computing devices, because of their
speed potential, are of a qualitatively different order than anything that
involves moving matter around... :-)

    > In the game of firsts, where does Torres y Quevedo's "El Ajedrecista"
    > fit in?

Alas, can't answer that - I've heard the name, but don't know much about his
machine.


    > From: Jon Elson

    > Atanasoff and Beqrry did a GREAT job, but it wasn't actually 
    > a "computer" by the Turing definition.

Which is why I described it as the first digital electronic computing
device... :-)

Interestingly, one could add 'binary' to that description. The ENIAC of
course wasn't, and I don't think COLOSSUS was either, in its counters, etc
(but would have to check - does anyone know/recall).

    > all that was left were some drawings in a few binders. They published
    > NOTHING about the machine itself, and it was largely unknown for
    > DECADES!
    > ...
    > .. as far as I'm concerned, Atanasoff and Berry are a VERY interesting
    > footnote in early computing, but didn't actually contribute directly to
    > the development of computers.

Well, there was a lengthy report written, but it was never circulated publicly
because Atanasoff was trying to file a patent, and the patent attorney (IIRC)
advised them not to publish until the patent application was filed - which it
never was, with WWII starting. There was a contemporary press release about
the device, which resulted in local coverage only.

The whole thing did come within a hair's-breadth of winding up where Zuse's
work did - a curiousity which did not have much impact on the world - but for
one stroke of chance/luck: word of the machine somehow reached a man called
John W. Mauchly, who came out to visit Atanasoff and Berry in June 1941, and
spent almost a week there, talking with them, and studying the machine, and
their written material.

He later tried to claim that it was no big deal, and the ABC didn't really
affect his thinking much - but that won't wash, you don't spend nearly a week
intently studying something you think is irrelevant junk. (And Mauchly's
letters to Atanasoff, written shortly after the visit, make clear that he
was much taken with the ABC.)

It's clear there is a very significant link between the ABC and the ENIAC -
and the influence of the latter is clear.

	Noel

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Wed Feb 11 05:03:17 2015
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 12:03:17 +0100 (CET)
Subject: SIMH LGP-30 Progress.
In-Reply-To: <3f56cda3$7676f73a$104ae2fd$@buzz1.com>
References: <3f56cda3$7676f73a$104ae2fd$@buzz1.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502111114090.22578@linuxserv.home>

On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, B Degnan wrote:
> via trial and error, and a lot of reading.  I believe that loading the
> bootstrap manually is a must; one cannot use or create tapes otherwise.

Only if your drum memory loses its contents. I don't know if SIMH has a 
concept of non-volatile main storage (drum, core). And for the LGP-30, all 
registers are non-volatile, too.

> think this SIMH has the bootstrap pre-loaded.  I am unaware of anyone who
> is using the SIMH simulator, although I have seen two non-SIMH LGP-30
> simulators.  One is in German.

That's mine, but there's an English version, too.

> In order to enter instructions into memory I first learned how to translate
> code from the various actual papertape sources, for example...
>
> "flexowriter entry"> 6300 P 0000'
>
> becomes
>
> sim> d -a 6300 10000000

Urks, that's sick... but SIMH should offer the possibility to enter the 
mnemonics and addresses (or anything else since everything is mapped to 
its four bit code) like
sim> d -a 3w00 p0000     (or d -a 6300 p0000
sim> d -a 3w04 i0000         d -a 6301 i0000 ...)
sim> d -a 3w08 c3w14
sim> d -a 3w0j p0000
sim> d -a 3w10 i0000
sim> g 3w00

Anyways, SIMH is not very well suited for machines like an LGP-30 where 
the user interaction with typewriter and console buttons for operation is 
imperative. The SIMH version does officially work, but it is not really 
user friendly in this case.
But the best would be if you use a drum image with 10.4 (the monitor) 
already loaded, i.e. save the memory contents to a file and reload it on 
the next incarnation of SIMH (there's a "START" drum containing 10.4 in my 
simulator package, and an "ACT5" drum with preloaded ACT-V and 
subroutines, these may be usable in SIMH, but I don't know).

> repertoire.  The hardest part is finding ways to enter Flexowriter key
> input via a modern keyboard, using SIMH commands.

By using a simulator that offers the right frontend to the user (i.e. keys 
and buttons as required by the machine operations) *g*

Christian

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Feb 11 07:40:48 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 08:40:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Anyone need spare 11/05 - 11/10 keys?
Message-ID: <20150211134048.0DCF118C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jason T

    > I have two 11/05s and one key .. The key is made by Chicago Lock Co.
    > and is stamped "GRB2."

Perfect description of my 11/10 key. I'm now 99% sure they are all the same,
but I think I'll have one made, and sent to the person nearest me, for an
absolute confirmation, before I produce a cascade of them. (Plus to which the
store probably needs to order more blanks - I'm not sure they have that many
in stock! :-)

    > I'd like two please.

Added you to my list.

	Noel

From bqt at update.uu.se  Wed Feb 11 09:04:39 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 16:04:39 +0100
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <20150211125104.8E6D718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150211125104.8E6D718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54DB6F87.6010207@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-11 13:51, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Johnny Billquist
>
>      > And once more noone mentions Konrad Zuse, which in my mind beat them
>      > all
>
> Well, two things. (And don't get me wrong, I admire Zuse and his work.)
>
> First, Zuse's work didn't really have much impact. You may disagree, but my
> sense is that if that bomb that destroyed the Z1 had gotten him too, the
> post-WWII world would still look pretty much like the real one.

No argument from me on that. I wasn't referring to impact.

> Second, his early machines (Z1-Z3) weren't stored-program (in the sense of
> 'one memory holds both instructions and data'). Yes, yes, I know the Z3 can
> (with a monstrous kludge) be Turing-complete, but it still wasn't
> stored-program - which to my mind, is _the_ key aspect of a real 'computer'.

What do you mean by "stored program" then? Since the Z3 stored its 
programs on external tape.

But the Z4 should not be ignored either...

	Johnny


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 09:11:20 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 15:11:20 -0000
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <A396CDF5FB3C412E837AF10DF48DEEF0@310e2>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com> <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
 <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com> <54DAF903.5070306@sydex.com>
 <A396CDF5FB3C412E837AF10DF48DEEF0@310e2>
Message-ID: <0c7701d0460c$fe3bd3f0$fab37bd0$@gmail.com>

Delay Lines have been used as storage in a number of UK designed computers..

Whilst not "Ultra Fast" the Ferranti Pegasus used delay lines as main store. There is a (not very good) picture of the board here:-

http://www.ourcomputerheritage.org/F3%20Pegasus%20nickel%20delay%20line.htm

If I remember properly the Pegasus ran at 333Khz and was clocked off the drum, to ensure everything synced with the drum. Being a serial machine this was ideal storage...

The ESDAC at Cambridge used mercury delay lines which were faster but reputedly less reliable......

... more recently (but still a long time ago in Computing) Manchester Universities MU5 used a plated wire store system, which was "fast" 

http://www.cs.manchester.ac.uk/about-us/history/mu5/

and scroll down to "Instruction Accessing". I remember been shown this towards the end of MU5's life...

.. so we did develop fast, if not "ultra fast"  re-circulating memory....
.. its just it was more expensive than core and more expensive that DRAM...

Dave Wade
G4UGM





> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stein
> Sent: 11 February 2015 07:24
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: imitation game movie
> 
> > Would we have developed ultra-fast recirculating memory?
> 
> Now there's an idea (has it been tried?); the equivalent of an acoustic delay
> line memory using fiber optics...
> 
> m
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
> To: <General at classiccmp.org>;
> "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic
> Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 1:38 AM
> Subject: Re: imitation game movie
> 
> 
> > On 02/10/2015 09:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> >
> >> Oh, absolutely!  There was a lot of work on
> >> using ferrite rings as storage
> >> and logic elements at that time, but Forrester
> >> and Papian really
> >> extended what had been done before, and the
> >> coincident current
> >> scheme was really ELEGANT and made large arrays
> >> of fast memory
> >> practical.  The bigger you built the array, the
> >> more memory you got
> >> with small increments in the number of drivers.
> >
> > Didn't coincident-current relays come before
> > that (as used, for example, in telephone
> > switching equipment)?  So the basic idea was
> > there.
> >
> > I've always been fascinated by magnetic core
> > logic; both using "hard" magnetics (e.g. Univac
> > SS) and "soft" (e.g. Parametrons).  I wonder if
> > magnetic core for memory hadn't been developed,
> > would we have developed electrostatic or some
> > other technology to the same density?
> >
> > Would we have developed ultra-fast recirculating
> > memory?
> >
> > --Chuck
> >
> >



From js at cimmeri.com  Wed Feb 11 09:58:12 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 10:58:12 -0500
Subject: Crowdfunding for history book
In-Reply-To: <54DAEA1B.3090708@snarc.net>
References: <54DAEA1B.3090708@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <54DB7C14.4070209@cimmeri.com>



On 2/11/2015 12:35 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote:
> Hello cctalk'ers,
>
> Hopefully this message won't offend 
> anyone --- I recognize that I might, 
> and I apologize in advance if it does.
>
> As many of you know, I've been in the 
> vintage computing hobby for about a 
> decade. The first person I met was 
> Sellam Ismail. He helped guide me as a 
> newb collector of handheld/pocket 
> computers.
>
> Somehow that led to me co-founding 
> MARCH, publishing a 1,000-subscriber 
> newsletter for a few years, rescuing a 
> mainframe here and there, making the 
> VCF East into a premier event, and 
> becoming a "talking head" everywhere 
> from BBC Radio to the Wall Street 
> Journal. (My personal site is 
> www.snarc.net if you really want to 
> know more ... bring popcorn.)
>
> Now I'm asking for some personal help 
> from the community.
>
> I'm trying something radical: crowd 
> funding, so that I can finally finish 
> the decade-long project of writing my 
> book about the history of mobile 
> computing.
>
> You can imagine how frustrated I feel 
> when telling my family "I'm in the The 
> Wall Street Journal!" but that I'm 
> also dangerously under-employed 
> (having been spit out of the technical 
> journalism field after 16 years). It 
> does not compute.


Sure it computes.  Vintage computing -- 
currently -- is just hobby-worthy, and 
your little Man-On-Street quotes 
appearing here and there are hardly 
income worthy.   Your experience 
compared to the Real Guys on this list 
(of which I don't qualify to rank as 
either) barely qualifies you as 
anything, much less a "talking head" for 
vintage computing.  You're a talking 
head for MARCH.  That's it.

Why should people PAY you to write a 
book?   Only established authors with 
some kind of track record get an advance 
from their publishers.

Annoyed,
- J.

From kelly at catcorner.org  Wed Feb 11 10:42:51 2015
From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 16:42:51 +0000
Subject: Crowdfunding for history book
In-Reply-To: <54DB7C14.4070209@cimmeri.com>
References: <54DAEA1B.3090708@snarc.net>,<54DB7C14.4070209@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <1423672970029.29941@catcorner.org>

> Your experience compared to the Real Guys on this list (of which I don't qualify to rank as either) 
> barely qualifies you as anything, much less a "talking head" for vintage computing.  You're a talking 
> head for MARCH.  That's it.

Knowing history and how to write about it does not mean you have created it or even experienced it.  Many of the "Real Guys" I have dealt with on and off this list are egoists that need regular stroking. Who better to write about your history than someone that knows how to research.

Kelly

From jason at smbfc.net  Wed Feb 11 11:20:47 2015
From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 09:20:47 -0800
Subject: Crowdfunding for history book
In-Reply-To: <1423672970029.29941@catcorner.org>
References: <54DAEA1B.3090708@snarc.net>,
 <54DB7C14.4070209@cimmeri.com> <1423672970029.29941@catcorner.org>
Message-ID: <54DB8F6F.6050806@smbfc.net>

On 02/11/2015 08:42 AM, Kelly Leavitt wrote:
>> Your experience compared to the Real Guys on this list (of which I don't qualify to rank as either)
>> barely qualifies you as anything, much less a "talking head" for vintage computing.  You're a talking
>> head for MARCH.  That's it.
> Knowing history and how to write about it does not mean you have created it or even experienced it.  Many of the "Real Guys" I have dealt with on and off this list are egoists that need regular stroking. Who better to write about your history than someone that knows how to research.
>
> Kelly
Right with you there Kelly.   I'm not sure what makes Evan any less 
unqualified to write a book about any particular subject than any one 
else.   Being a professional tech journalist who runs a successful retro 
computing club, probably makes him more qualified than most.  Certainly 
more qualified than folks like me who's publishing prowess is limited to 
spouting off on internet mailing lists.

A college history professor had a great quote, which I'm about to 
butcher, which relates:
"Every historian suffers from one of two fundamental detriments.  He 
either experienced the events of which he writes, or he did not." 
Countless books are written every year about events of which the author 
has had no hand in creating.  As long as the text is well researched and 
documented, it's as valid a source as any other.


--Jason



From christian_liendo at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 11:43:35 2015
From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:43:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Crowdfunding for history book
In-Reply-To: <54DB7C14.4070209@cimmeri.com>
References: <54DB7C14.4070209@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <1548340223.2025338.1423676615724.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

> Sure it computes.  Vintage computing currently is just hobby-worthy
> and your little Man-On-Street quotes appearing here and there are 
> hardly income worthy.  Your experience compared to the Real Guys on
> this list (of which I don't qualify to rank as either) barely qualifies 
> you as anything, much less a "talking head" for vintage computing. 
> You're a talking head for MARCH.  That's it. 


So I have read a number of books about vintage computers and the companies behind them and they are not written by people who have a passion for the subject and thus take the time out to write about it. Yes Evan is the talking head for MARCH, but he knows many of the "real guys" and he communicates with them. So here is a person who is passionate and has access to people to help him get the correct info on the subject.

> Why should people PAY you to write a book? 

Because otherwise it may never be written. Who else will do it?




> Only established authors with some kind of track record get an advance from their publishers.

Actually, I have seen a number of other crowd sourced books on vintage computing. 


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2146199819/commodore-64-a-visual-commpendium-by-bitmap-books

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2146199819/commodore-amiga-a-visual-commpendium

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/47744432/the-story-of-the-zx-spectrum-in-pixels

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/47744432/the-story-of-the-zx-spectrum-in-pixels-volume-2

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dgreelish/bring-a-great-computer-history-zine-back-to-a-new

Not interested? Don't donate. But at least be a more civil about it. 

From christian_liendo at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 11:45:24 2015
From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:45:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Crowdfunding for history book
In-Reply-To: <1548340223.2025338.1423676615724.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <54DB7C14.4070209@cimmeri.com>
 <1548340223.2025338.1423676615724.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1802289800.2010886.1423676724858.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>




> Sure it computes.  Vintage computing currently is just hobby-worthy
> and your little Man-On-Street quotes appearing here and there are 
> hardly income worthy.  Your experience compared to the Real Guys on
> this list (of which I don't qualify to rank as either) barely qualifies 
> you as anything, much less a "talking head" for vintage computing. 
> You're a talking head for MARCH.  That's it. 


So I have read a number of books about vintage computers and the companies behind them and they are not written by people who have a passion for the subject and thus take the time out to write about it. Yes Evan is the talking head for MARCH, but he knows many of the "real guys" and he communicates with them. So here is a person who is passionate and has access to people to help him get the correct info on the subject.

> Why should people PAY you to write a book? 

Because otherwise it may never be written. Who else will do it?





> Only established authors with some kind of track record get an advance from their publishers.

Actually, I have seen a number of other crowd sourced books on vintage computing. 


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2146199819/commodore-64-a-visual-commpendium-by-bitmap-books

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2146199819/commodore-amiga-a-visual-commpendium

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/47744432/the-story-of-the-zx-spectrum-in-pixels

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/47744432/the-story-of-the-zx-spectrum-in-pixels-volume-2

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dgreelish/bring-a-great-computer-history-zine-back-to-a-new

Not interested? Don't donate. But at least be a more civil about it. 

From evan at snarc.net  Wed Feb 11 12:40:32 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 13:40:32 -0500
Subject: Crowdfunding for history book
In-Reply-To: <54DB8F6F.6050806@smbfc.net>
References: <54DAEA1B.3090708@snarc.net>,
 <54DB7C14.4070209@cimmeri.com> <1423672970029.29941@catcorner.org>
 <54DB8F6F.6050806@smbfc.net>
Message-ID: <54DBA220.4050708@snarc.net>


> As long as the text is well researched and documented, it's as valid a 
> source as any other. 

Thank you.

By the OP's logic, there will never again be any valid books about world 
history before the year 1900-ish, because historians weren't there.  :)

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Feb 11 12:51:13 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 12:51:13 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DAF903.5070306@sydex.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com> <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
 <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com> <54DAF903.5070306@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54DBA4A1.8050906@pico-systems.com>

On 02/11/2015 12:38 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/10/2015 09:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> Oh, absolutely!  There was a lot of work on using ferrite 
>> rings as storage
>> and logic elements at that time, but Forrester and Papian 
>> really
>> extended what had been done before, and the coincident 
>> current
>> scheme was really ELEGANT and made large arrays of fast 
>> memory
>> practical.  The bigger you built the array, the more 
>> memory you got
>> with small increments in the number of drivers.
>
> Didn't coincident-current relays come before that (as 
> used, for example, in telephone switching equipment)?  So 
> the basic idea was there.
>
I'm sure not aware of that.  #2 ESS uses ferreed switching 
elements, but it was WAY after
core memory was developed.  The original core design was 
done somewhere around
1948 - 1950, I can't find an exact reference.  I'm unaware 
of any similar, entirely
electrical/magnetic latching scheme used in telephony that 
predates that.  Western
Electric crossbar was quite mechanical although it did use a 
matrix scheme to
select crossbar contacts to opened or closed.
> I've always been fascinated by magnetic core logic; both 
> using "hard" magnetics (e.g. Univac SS) and "soft" (e.g. 
> Parametrons).  I wonder if magnetic core for memory hadn't 
> been developed, would we have developed electrostatic or 
> some other technology to the same density?
>
> Would we have developed ultra-fast recirculating memory?
>
I'm sure memory technology could have gone a number of 
different ways.  i don't
think classic core memory could NOT have been developed, it 
is too marvelous
for people to have missed the concept for much longer.

There were some other schemes, twistor and plated wire 
memory, and biax memory.
Some of these were non-volatile, which was an advantage to 
the military.  But,
one of those technologies could have become dominant, instead.

I never understood why bubble memory didn't continue to 
progress. Vertical
Bloch line memory might have eventually developed to the 
capacity of
modern flash memories, and probably not had the wear-out 
problem.
They never would have reached the read performance of flash, 
but might
have kept up with the write performance.

Hmmm, flash memory IS really electrostatic.  And, a lot 
better than anything
like Williams tubes.  I guess old-style DRAM was basically a 
silicon implementation
of a Williams tube!

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Feb 11 12:54:44 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 12:54:44 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <A396CDF5FB3C412E837AF10DF48DEEF0@310e2>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com> <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
 <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com> <54DAF903.5070306@sydex.com>
 <A396CDF5FB3C412E837AF10DF48DEEF0@310e2>
Message-ID: <54DBA574.80906@pico-systems.com>

On 02/11/2015 01:24 AM, Mike Stein wrote:
>> Would we have developed ultra-fast recirculating memory?
>
> Now there's an idea (has it been tried?); the equivalent 
> of an acoustic delay line memory using fiber optics...
>
Way back in the dark days (1976 or so) I cloned a Beehive 
CRT terminal.
It used silicon bucket brigade memory (CCD).  they had a 9V 
two-phase
clock, and just a bunch of charge storage spots and the clock
pulses peristaltically shifted the charge packets down the line.
This was VERY much like earlier terminal designs that used 
wiresonic
delay lines.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Feb 11 13:00:38 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 13:00:38 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54DBA6D6.7010606@pico-systems.com>

On 02/10/2015 11:23 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> OK, my only comment to that is the stuff that says "Turing 
> was THE father of the computer, period, full stop."
> Note the singular.
>
OK, I'd like to clarify my position on this, after a little 
contemplation.
I was objecting to Turing as THE father of the "computer".

If somebody wants to state Turing was the father of 
"computer science",
I'd have a hard time arguing with that one!

Jon

From b4 at gewt.net  Wed Feb 11 13:14:59 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 14:14:59 -0500
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502101602500.1006@gewt.net>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
 <CA+oaVqz=f=2teaR14cK8zop37CZN_fR+62hemjqragxJo2mUdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA6239.8040700@update.uu.se>
 <CA+oaVqxSAzoPw7wkaDwkDijHqNw1cE-+Vf+DjwzYcKtyfQJaBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502101234570.31964@deltasoft.com>
 <54DA7123.4090304@sydex.com> <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502101602500.1006@gewt.net>
Message-ID: <A9E4A684-A99E-41C8-92FF-D8C35C09374A@gewt.net>

I have 2 SC-40s in the truck bed.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 10, 2015, at 16:03, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 10 Feb 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> 
>>> On 02/10/2015 12:35 PM, geneb wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm with you there, Jim.  I'd LOVE to see some of the message boards and
>>> file areas recovered.  Tons and tons of history in the boards alone.
>> 
>> Wouldn't some of that stuff still be sensitive?  I'd be surprised if it were still there.
> 
> I just want the monitor. ;)
> 
>> --Chuck
> 
> -- 
> Cory Smelosky
> http://gewt.net Personal stuff
> http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 13:16:01 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 14:16:01 -0500
Subject: SC40
In-Reply-To: <A9E4A684-A99E-41C8-92FF-D8C35C09374A@gewt.net>
References: <54DA3290.5040808@bitsavers.org>
 <CA+oaVqz=f=2teaR14cK8zop37CZN_fR+62hemjqragxJo2mUdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA6239.8040700@update.uu.se>
 <CA+oaVqxSAzoPw7wkaDwkDijHqNw1cE-+Vf+DjwzYcKtyfQJaBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502101234570.31964@deltasoft.com>
 <54DA7123.4090304@sydex.com>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502101602500.1006@gewt.net>
 <A9E4A684-A99E-41C8-92FF-D8C35C09374A@gewt.net>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfBsUb4BADUSfLdS6_BtZaBGr_1tSdHe4uwZtsTvAYz=xQ@mail.gmail.com>

PICTURES!  COME ON!

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:14 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:

> I have 2 SC-40s in the truck bed.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Feb 10, 2015, at 16:03, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 10 Feb 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 02/10/2015 12:35 PM, geneb wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I'm with you there, Jim.  I'd LOVE to see some of the message boards
> and
> >>> file areas recovered.  Tons and tons of history in the boards alone.
> >>
> >> Wouldn't some of that stuff still be sensitive?  I'd be surprised if it
> were still there.
> >
> > I just want the monitor. ;)
> >
> >> --Chuck
> >
> > --
> > Cory Smelosky
> > http://gewt.net Personal stuff
> > http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 11 13:20:26 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 11:20:26 -0800
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DBA4A1.8050906@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com> <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
 <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com> <54DAF903.5070306@sydex.com>
 <54DBA4A1.8050906@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54DBAB7A.9070409@sydex.com>

On 02/11/2015 10:51 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

> I never understood why bubble memory didn't continue to progress. Vertical
> Bloch line memory might have eventually developed to the capacity of
> modern flash memories, and probably not had the wear-out problem.
> They never would have reached the read performance of flash, but might
> have kept up with the write performance.

Bulky, power-hungry and expensive, mostly--and slow random-access, as it 
was recirculating.

On the other hand, the only thing that seems to be holding MRAM and FRAM 
back is density.  TI is aggressively marketing MSP430 MCUs with embedded 
FRAM.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 11 13:22:52 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 11:22:52 -0800
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DBA574.80906@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com> <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
 <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com> <54DAF903.5070306@sydex.com>
 <A396CDF5FB3C412E837AF10DF48DEEF0@310e2> <54DBA574.80906@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54DBAC0C.4060107@sydex.com>

On 02/11/2015 10:54 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

> Way back in the dark days (1976 or so) I cloned a Beehive CRT terminal.
> It used silicon bucket brigade memory (CCD).  they had a 9V two-phase
> clock, and just a bunch of charge storage spots and the clock
> pulses peristaltically shifted the charge packets down the line.
> This was VERY much like earlier terminal designs that used wiresonic
> delay lines.

That was the Super Bee, right?  8008 CPU, but I thought the memory was 
MOS shift-register, not bucket-brigade (which I mostly associate with 
analog applications, such as reverb effects).

I had one of those Beehives.  Nice big heavy terminal with offline 
page-edit capabilities.

--Chuck



From b4 at gewt.net  Wed Feb 11 15:56:57 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 16:56:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>

All,

I have the SC-40 home safe and sound.

Before I go ANY further...I want to image the boot/microcode drives which 
aren't 512-byte sectors.  What's the best approach?

My options are a VAX netbooting VMS or netbooting NetBSD (install doable 
for that one.)

Thanks!
-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From b4 at gewt.net  Wed Feb 11 15:56:57 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 16:56:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>

All,

I have the SC-40 home safe and sound.

Before I go ANY further...I want to image the boot/microcode drives which 
aren't 512-byte sectors.  What's the best approach?

My options are a VAX netbooting VMS or netbooting NetBSD (install doable 
for that one.)

Thanks!
-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Feb 11 16:04:09 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 14:04:09 -0800
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
Message-ID: <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>

On 2/11/15 1:56 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
> netbooting NetBSD (install doable for that one.)
>

You'll need to put something together that can talk to the raw scsi interface and issue
your own read commands. Are they common command set drives?




From b4 at gewt.net  Wed Feb 11 16:16:28 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:16:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111715550.1006@gewt.net>

On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Al Kossow wrote:

> On 2/11/15 1:56 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
>> netbooting NetBSD (install doable for that one.)
>> 
>
> You'll need to put something together that can talk to the raw scsi interface 
> and issue
> your own read commands. Are they common command set drives?
>

Should be.  I don't believe CompuServe did anything too silly.

>
>
>

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Feb 11 16:17:51 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:17:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <201502112217.RAA13436@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> netbooting NetBSD (install doable for that one.)
> You'll need to put something together that can talk to the raw scsi
> interface and issue your own read commands.

This isn't THAT difficult.  Build a kernel with nothing but sg on the
relevant ID/LUN and then use something like cdparanoia as an example of
how to issue your own SCSI commands.

Well, I should say, it shouldn't be that difficult.  I haven't tried it
myself...though, come to think of it, I have a floppy drive that shows
up as a SCSI device with 256-byte sectors which might make a decent
test case.

If I can find the silly thing.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 16:25:43 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:25:43 -0500
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <201502112217.RAA13436@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
 <201502112217.RAA13436@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <CAALmimm_P7O3PfQS+xeMnWV8=p04wyXm53pQ70GnNbCdUdCyFA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
>>> netbooting NetBSD (install doable for that one.)
>> You'll need to put something together that can talk to the raw scsi
>> interface and issue your own read commands.
>
> This isn't THAT difficult.  Build a kernel with nothing but sg on the
> relevant ID/LUN and then use something like cdparanoia as an example of
> how to issue your own SCSI commands.

It's been a while since I fiddled with NetBSD, but would sg3_utils be
a good starting point for how to tackle this?

http://linux.die.net/man/8/sg3_utils

I'm also curious if these are HVD or LVD drives (I remember long
cables on the units at WorldCom, so I doubt they are single-ended).

-ethan

From js at cimmeri.com  Wed Feb 11 16:28:14 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:28:14 -0500
Subject: Crowdfunding for history book
In-Reply-To: <1423672970029.29941@catcorner.org>
References: <54DAEA1B.3090708@snarc.net>,
 <54DB7C14.4070209@cimmeri.com> <1423672970029.29941@catcorner.org>
Message-ID: <54DBD77E.9010708@cimmeri.com>



On 2/11/2015 11:42 AM, Kelly Leavitt wrote:
>> Your experience compared to the Real Guys on this list (of which I don't qualify to rank as either)
>> barely qualifies you as anything, much less a "talking head" for vintage computing.  You're a talking
>> head for MARCH.  That's it.
> Knowing history and how to write about it does not mean you have created it or even experienced it.  Many of the "Real Guys" I have dealt with on and off this list are egoists that need regular stroking. Who better to write about your history than someone that knows how to research.
>
> Kelly

Kelly, you're a member of MARCH, 
right?   Just wanting that context clear.

"Mobile Computing" is not my history, 
but I agree with you, that if it were, a 
historian / researcher / journalist 
would be the wise choice to write it.   
But if I were part an investor in that 
venture, then I would also want a share 
of the profits from the book.  Not sure 
if crowdsourcing provides that.

- J.


From js at cimmeri.com  Wed Feb 11 16:34:55 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:34:55 -0500
Subject: Crowdfunding for history book
In-Reply-To: <1548340223.2025338.1423676615724.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <54DB7C14.4070209@cimmeri.com>
 <1548340223.2025338.1423676615724.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <54DBD90F.3040100@cimmeri.com>



On 2/11/2015 12:43 PM, Christian Liendo 
wrote:
>> Sure it computes.  Vintage computing currently is just hobby-worthy
>> and your little Man-On-Street quotes appearing here and there are
>> hardly income worthy.  Your experience compared to the Real Guys on
>> this list (of which I don't qualify to rank as either) barely qualifies
>> you as anything, much less a "talking head" for vintage computing.
>> You're a talking head for MARCH.  That's it.
>
> So I have read a number of books about vintage computers and the companies behind them and they are not written by people who have a passion for the subject and thus take the time out to write about it. Yes Evan is the talking head for MARCH, but he knows many of the "real guys" and he communicates with them. So here is a person who is passionate and has access to people to help him get the correct info on the subject.

Points all well-taken.  But did these 
guys ask Evan to write this book?   If 
Evan was *requested* by a mobile 
computing enthusiast community, then 
certainly, yes, they should fund his 
endeavor.


>> Why should people PAY you to write a book?
> Because otherwise it may never be written. Who else will do it?

That begs the question as to whether it 
really needs doing it all.



> Not interested? Don't donate. But at least be a more civil about it.

Point taken, but I found the tone of 
Evan's message (and others of his 
recently) to be overly self-aggrandizing 
and whiny at the same time.   If he's 
going to post in a public forum, the 
forum is entitled to have its 
reactions.   I'm not asking anyone else 
to agree with or share in my reaction.

Had the request been written from a 
different angle, with a bit of humility 
and lack of complaining about being 
underemployed, I would not have been 
annoyed by it.

- J.









From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed Feb 11 16:37:28 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 14:37:28 -0800
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150210212114.GA18088@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150206014100.AFFAF18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>
 <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150208112054.GB14680@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <E82CB6D2-0C47-4A61-870C-AE7B8B59A8D6@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150209081639.GB89656@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <280D55F3-EDAC-4762-859E-6E0D2B3727CB@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150210212114.GA18088@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <347C87A5-5B88-4CC6-A00D-04A98AE598CD@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-10, at 1:21 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Brent Hilpert wrote:
> 
> [..]
> 
> Oh yes Brent, now, since you've corrected every single bit from what I
> say'd, do you feel better?
> 
> I'm repairing TTL based circuits and old computers for more than 30 years
> now and I still have to find an defective 74S240 with an Input at 2 Volts
> that destroyed an Xtal-Oscilltor Output.

> Oh yes, it's possible, maybe I'll struggle about one in the next 30 years,
> maybe not.
> 
> Maybe I find one that read's the open input as Low and it ready High when I
> connect it with an pullup Resistor to Vcc. (learned that's the real test)
> For sure I won't leave it on the pcb.
> 
> Do what you want, you always know better.

It's not likely that you would have encountered that scenario and it's not likely you will.
That doesn't mean anything.
While there are some faults that may be considered typical or common, many are simply unique. They are unlikely up to the instant they occur and then they continue to be unlikely (to occur again).

Over the decades (as I recall, I first played with TTL in 1972) I have observed that when semiconductors fail - especially when of their own volition and not due to external trauma - they can fail in very strange and bizarre ways.

I once encountered some failed ICs that would work after heating them up with a soldering iron and then revert to failure again - not after a few minutes of cooling off - but days or weeks later.

I once encountered a common JFET that one day decided it would become a sensor for changes in the surrounding electrostatic field. The equipment would intermittently hang up until power-cycled. It was eventually correlated to the activation of a neon indicator, triggering a nearby JFET to latch up in conduction. Opening the equipment moved the bulb an inch or two away from the JFET, and now it was fine. That was hell to figure out and realise what was going on. No it wasn't noise on supply lines, it was mere physical proximity. Many would have just shotgun-replaced components until the thing worked and put it in the category of "bad transistor" without having any idea of the unique nature of the fault. Was that fault scenario likely? Will I, you, or anyone encounter that again?

Not long ago I encountered a similar situation as the OP: traced a fault to a two-point circuit (a PROM IC output driving a data input of a 4-bit TTL register, well, 3-point including a pull-up resistor). After eliminating the R as a problem, it was difficult to discern whether the output or the input was the fault source and I don't like hacking up PCBs or making scattershot, unnecessary parts replacements to find a fault. I assessed as I could and eventually decided it was the PROM, probably swayed that way as it would seem the more likely part to fail. So I went to a lot of trouble to build programmer hardware, write control software, source the ROM contents, burn and install the new PROM.
The PROM output wasn't the problem. The input was the faulty point. I wish I had made more measurements.

The OP's situation was such: unexplained semiconductor failure. While it was more probable it was something in the oscillator I wasn't about to make presumptions. When advising on repairs from a distance I try to cover the range of possibilities to pursue a course that will make accurate eliminations, and not go down a path that may falsely eliminate from consideration even unlikely failures (which testing the input only open-circuit could have done). Like my PROM, the OP's xtal osc is not a readily sourced part and checking the input might have been fortuitous.


From wilson at dbit.com  Wed Feb 11 16:47:27 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:47:27 -0500
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
Message-ID: <20150211224727.GA25792@dbit.dbit.com>

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 04:56:57PM -0500, Cory Smelosky wrote:
>Before I go ANY further...I want to image the boot/microcode drives
>which aren't 512-byte sectors.  What's the best approach?

If you can dig up a DOS PC (FreeDOS should be fine but not an emulated or
virtualized DOS) with a SCSI adapter that's old enough to have a DOS ASPI
driver available, my PUTR.COM *should* be able to do it.  (Never tested
with non-512-b/s sectors, but it uses the sector size reported by the drive
rather than hard-coding for 512 so it should work.) www.dbit.com/putr and
the commands would be something like:

mount x: scsi1: /foreign
copy /file /dev x: image.dsk

HTH,

John Wilson
D Bit

From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 16:48:47 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 16:48:47 -0600
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111715550.1006@gewt.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111715550.1006@gewt.net>
Message-ID: <932A9D40-F7DD-4713-9BC0-D8E1D466E168@gmail.com>





> On Feb 11, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2/11/15 1:56 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
>>> netbooting NetBSD (install doable for that one.)
>> 
>> You'll need to put something together that can talk to the raw scsi interface and issue
>> your own read commands. Are they common command set drives?
> 
> Should be.  I don't believe CompuServe did anything too silly.

What, actually, is the blocksize?  1024 or ?


> 
> 
> -- 
> Cory Smelosky
> http://gewt.net Personal stuff
> http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 16:57:25 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 16:57:25 -0600
Subject: Failed ICs and components
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUzqJyfknXR0P55-8aZikdkNZZrzJSQ=1WspOvbG-KBE2w@mail.gmail.com>

I am writing my master's thesis on accelerated life testing and would like
to get a collection of parts to decap and experiment on. What prompted my
study is a failed 7474 dual flip-flop in a PDP-8/E. As I later read (on
here, I believe) was that the 7474s seem to fail in higher number than
other 7400-series ICs. Is this because of a design flaw? I'm not sure
(yet), but would like to find out.

More recently, I saw a 680k 2W carbon resistor that read 1.3 meg out of
circuit. As it turns out, it was in a high voltage portion of the circuit,
and I suspect that electromigration caused its failure over time. Many of
you are probably already aware that carbon resistors tend to increase in
value as they age, though there are a few explanations too for that
behavior, as I understand it.

I would like to tie all of this together by researching older accelerated
life testing schemes, examine how those parts actually fared, and see how
current day models might be improved.

If anyone has a collection of dead ICs (preferably those that have died
inexplicably, and not by extreme overvoltage, for instance), I would like
to talk to you about getting a few. If they are 7474s from Texas
Instruments, ca. early 1970s, even better!

Thanks in advance,

Kyle

From b4 at gewt.net  Wed Feb 11 17:04:58 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 18:04:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <932A9D40-F7DD-4713-9BC0-D8E1D466E168@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111715550.1006@gewt.net>
 <932A9D40-F7DD-4713-9BC0-D8E1D466E168@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111804510.1006@gewt.net>

On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Roe Peterson wrote:

>
>
>
>
>> On Feb 11, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/11/15 1:56 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
>>>> netbooting NetBSD (install doable for that one.)
>>>
>>> You'll need to put something together that can talk to the raw scsi interface and issue
>>> your own read commands. Are they common command set drives?
>>
>> Should be.  I don't believe CompuServe did anything too silly.
>
> What, actually, is the blocksize?  1024 or ?
>

576 or 2304.

>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cory Smelosky
>> http://gewt.net Personal stuff
>> http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
>

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From b4 at gewt.net  Wed Feb 11 17:05:29 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 18:05:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <20150211224727.GA25792@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <20150211224727.GA25792@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111805060.1006@gewt.net>

On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, John Wilson wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 04:56:57PM -0500, Cory Smelosky wrote:
>> Before I go ANY further...I want to image the boot/microcode drives
>> which aren't 512-byte sectors.  What's the best approach?
>
> If you can dig up a DOS PC (FreeDOS should be fine but not an emulated or
> virtualized DOS) with a SCSI adapter that's old enough to have a DOS ASPI
> driver available, my PUTR.COM *should* be able to do it.  (Never tested
> with non-512-b/s sectors, but it uses the sector size reported by the drive
> rather than hard-coding for 512 so it should work.) www.dbit.com/putr and
> the commands would be something like:
>

Hmmmmm.  Not sure if My SCSI adapter'd let me connect this drive to it...

> mount x: scsi1: /foreign
> copy /file /dev x: image.dsk
>
> HTH,
>
> John Wilson
> D Bit
>

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 17:06:50 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 16:06:50 -0700
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <932A9D40-F7DD-4713-9BC0-D8E1D466E168@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111715550.1006@gewt.net>
 <932A9D40-F7DD-4713-9BC0-D8E1D466E168@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRHH9teB8BcTNUNn+jnAs0x1evHkBTBWPt0YyUyAj3N2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Roe Peterson <roeapeterson at gmail.com> wrote:
> What, actually, is the blocksize?  1024 or ?

I have no idea specifically about the SC40, but in general when a
PDP-10 (36-bit machine) when using byte-oriented media uses 576-byte
sectors, in order to store a PDP-10 128x36 block. That's what DEC did
on the HSC50/RA81.  (Note that you can only use an RA81 with a
factory-supplied 576-byte HDA; there's no way to field-reformat an
RA81 HDA to a different sector size due to the use of embedded servo.)

From wilson at dbit.com  Wed Feb 11 17:08:59 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 18:08:59 -0500
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111805060.1006@gewt.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <20150211224727.GA25792@dbit.dbit.com>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111805060.1006@gewt.net>
Message-ID: <20150211230859.GA26768@dbit.dbit.com>

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 06:05:29PM -0500, Cory Smelosky wrote:
>Hmmmmm.  Not sure if My SCSI adapter'd let me connect this drive to it...

Well if you manage it and want to try PUTR, let me know of any problems.
If it doesn't work, I'll make it work!  This is just the kind of wacky
project it's for.  Congrats on the awesome hardware!

John Wilson
D Bit

From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Wed Feb 11 17:12:09 2015
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 00:12:09 +0100
Subject: Failed ICs and components
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUzqJyfknXR0P55-8aZikdkNZZrzJSQ=1WspOvbG-KBE2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUzqJyfknXR0P55-8aZikdkNZZrzJSQ=1WspOvbG-KBE2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <721974d58d5f9fe9aee2adb3a23ff12c@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net>

Kile,

I've  a lot defective 74xx's most of them having hp numbers. Date range 72-80.
But the ic's are located in the Netherlands.
If you're interested contact me off-list.

-Rik

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: "Kyle Owen" <kylevowen at gmail.com>
Verzonden: ?11-?2-?2015 23:57
Aan: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: Failed ICs and components

I am writing my master's thesis on accelerated life testing and would like
to get a collection of parts to decap and experiment on. What prompted my
study is a failed 7474 dual flip-flop in a PDP-8/E. As I later read (on
here, I believe) was that the 7474s seem to fail in higher number than
other 7400-series ICs. Is this because of a design flaw? I'm not sure
(yet), but would like to find out.

More recently, I saw a 680k 2W carbon resistor that read 1.3 meg out of
circuit. As it turns out, it was in a high voltage portion of the circuit,
and I suspect that electromigration caused its failure over time. Many of
you are probably already aware that carbon resistors tend to increase in
value as they age, though there are a few explanations too for that
behavior, as I understand it.

I would like to tie all of this together by researching older accelerated
life testing schemes, examine how those parts actually fared, and see how
current day models might be improved.

If anyone has a collection of dead ICs (preferably those that have died
inexplicably, and not by extreme overvoltage, for instance), I would like
to talk to you about getting a few. If they are 7474s from Texas
Instruments, ca. early 1970s, even better!

Thanks in advance,

Kyle

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 17:15:40 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 16:15:40 -0700
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111715550.1006@gewt.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111715550.1006@gewt.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTT4==k8KXc0DwK37KVPxe0nsxGYWV1+1-t-NFBBeRJRuA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 3:16 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
>> Are they common command set drives?
> Should be.  I don't believe CompuServe did anything too silly.

I don't have any special insight into it, but wouldn't it have been a
matter of whether Systems Concepts did anything too silly? Surely
Compuserve must have purchased whatever kind of drives SC specified
for use with the SC40, even when Compuserve built the machines
themselves.

SC certainly wasn't a large enough purchaser of disk drives that any
of the mainstream disk manufacturers would have built anything
particularly special for them.  However, there were a lot of standard
SCSI drives that could be formatted with a user-specified block size.
Some allowed arbitrary size within a range, while others only had a
few specific choices.

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Feb 11 17:16:35 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 23:16:35 +0000
Subject: Failed ICs and components
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUzqJyfknXR0P55-8aZikdkNZZrzJSQ=1WspOvbG-KBE2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUzqJyfknXR0P55-8aZikdkNZZrzJSQ=1WspOvbG-KBE2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3FA6@EXMBX16.thus.corp>


> More recently, I saw a 680k 2W carbon resistor that read 1.3 meg out of
> circuit. As it turns out, it was in a high voltage portion of the circuit,
> and I suspect that electromigration caused its failure over time. Many of
> you are probably already aware that carbon resistors tend to increase in
> value as they age, though there are a few explanations too for that
> behavior, as I understand it.

The startup resistors of 'normal' SMPSUs are well-known for failing. They
are typically around 100k and have about 200V across them, so it's not
an over-power issue. It would be interesting to know how they failed.

Perhaps somebody who repairs SMPSUs could keep a few for you.

> If anyone has a collection of dead ICs (preferably those that have died
> inexplicably, and not by extreme overvoltage, for instance), I would like
> to talk to you about getting a few. If they are 7474s from Texas
> Instruments, ca. early 1970s, even better!

ARGH! It is a pity you didn't ask for this about 3 months ago. I had kept
all the ICs I had replaced in HP98x0 machines, these were mostly TTL and
probably some TI ones. Certainly a fair number of 7474s and 74H40s. 
Alas I am pretty sure that is one thing I didn't bother to keep and move
to the new house. If I am wrong about that and they turn up here you are
welcome to them.

-tony


Thanks in advance,

Kyle

From b4 at gewt.net  Wed Feb 11 17:20:58 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 18:20:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTT4==k8KXc0DwK37KVPxe0nsxGYWV1+1-t-NFBBeRJRuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111715550.1006@gewt.net>
 <CAFrGgTT4==k8KXc0DwK37KVPxe0nsxGYWV1+1-t-NFBBeRJRuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111820180.1006@gewt.net>

On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Eric Smith wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 3:16 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
>>> Are they common command set drives?
>> Should be.  I don't believe CompuServe did anything too silly.
>
> I don't have any special insight into it, but wouldn't it have been a
> matter of whether Systems Concepts did anything too silly? Surely
> Compuserve must have purchased whatever kind of drives SC specified
> for use with the SC40, even when Compuserve built the machines
> themselves.
>

Hmmmm.

> SC certainly wasn't a large enough purchaser of disk drives that any
> of the mainstream disk manufacturers would have built anything
> particularly special for them.  However, there were a lot of standard
> SCSI drives that could be formatted with a user-specified block size.
> Some allowed arbitrary size within a range, while others only had a
> few specific choices.
>

Looks like an HP C2247.


-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From b4 at gewt.net  Wed Feb 11 17:37:51 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 18:37:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <20150211230859.GA26768@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <20150211224727.GA25792@dbit.dbit.com>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111805060.1006@gewt.net>
 <20150211230859.GA26768@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111837110.1006@gewt.net>

On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, John Wilson wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 06:05:29PM -0500, Cory Smelosky wrote:
>> Hmmmmm.  Not sure if My SCSI adapter'd let me connect this drive to it...
>
> Well if you manage it and want to try PUTR, let me know of any problems.
> If it doesn't work, I'll make it work!  This is just the kind of wacky
> project it's for.  Congrats on the awesome hardware!
>

Thanks!

Can't get my VAXstation 4000/VLC to give me a console (Must be a day 
ending in 'day') and can't find any PC cards.  Up to making it work on 
VMS? ;)

> John Wilson
> D Bit
>

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From tony.eros at machm.org  Wed Feb 11 17:42:11 2015
From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 18:42:11 -0500
Subject: Crowdfunding for history book
In-Reply-To: <54DBA220.4050708@snarc.net>
References: <54DAEA1B.3090708@snarc.net> <54DB7C14.4070209@cimmeri.com>
 <1423672970029.29941@catcorner.org> <54DB8F6F.6050806@smbfc.net>
 <54DBA220.4050708@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <3F07690F-5F98-43F3-B114-68DC4F260965@machm.org>

"there will never again be any valid books about world history before the year 1900-ish, because historians weren't there"

Except for Brian Williams, you mean. :-)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 11, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>> As long as the text is well researched and documented, it's as valid a source as any other.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> By the OP's logic, there will never again be any valid books about world history before the year 1900-ish, because historians weren't there.  :)


From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 17:51:36 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:51:36 -0600
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111804510.1006@gewt.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111715550.1006@gewt.net>
 <932A9D40-F7DD-4713-9BC0-D8E1D466E168@gmail.com>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111804510.1006@gewt.net>
Message-ID: <5225AC4D-4D5A-4EE6-BD15-AF5411E5EB60@gmail.com>


>> 
>> What, actually, is the blocksize?  1024 or ?
> 
> 576 or 2304.

36 bit, right.  Sorry -:)

And serious congratulations on the 40s.  I worked on decsystem 20s back in the day;  very nice machines.  

In fact, an early Unix project was to (essentially) duplicate the OPR system, including the COMND(?) jsys, so our operators didn't have to learn a new set of procedures. (This was an actuarial/pension mgmt company with 3 Tops-20 systems)

From jim at deitygraveyard.com  Wed Feb 11 18:00:41 2015
From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 19:00:41 -0500
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111820180.1006@gewt.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111715550.1006@gewt.net>
 <CAFrGgTT4==k8KXc0DwK37KVPxe0nsxGYWV1+1-t-NFBBeRJRuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111820180.1006@gewt.net>
Message-ID: <CA+oaVqwYLUVS0ksWSoDrm_y0GrmtmYW8v7is0GS-KXFhEEsdaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 6:20 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
> Looks like an HP C2247.

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/disc/scsi/5960-8346_C2240_Technical_Reference_Apr92.pdf

From salgernon at me.com  Wed Feb 11 18:26:53 2015
From: salgernon at me.com (Steve Algernon)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 16:26:53 -0800
Subject: Crowdfunding for history book
In-Reply-To: <54DBD90F.3040100@cimmeri.com>
References: <54DB7C14.4070209@cimmeri.com>
 <1548340223.2025338.1423676615724.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <54DBD90F.3040100@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <FDA1F3AD-7C3A-43EA-84E9-D94A5BEBCBED@me.com>


> On Feb 11, 2015, at 2:34 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
> 
>>> Why should people PAY you to write a book?
>> Because otherwise it may never be written. Who else will do it?
> 
> That begs the question as to whether it really needs doing it all.

One of my favorite books, and one that I return to year after year, is 'Hackers' by Steven Levy.  I read this book in high school in the 80s and it helped set my life direction. I'm not alone - I think there was an article about John Carmack being influenced by it as well, and when I was interviewing a few years ago, the founder of the company I visited also called out the book  "Have you read this!?".  I'm glad that book was written. Would / could Evan's be as seminal?

> Point taken, but I found the tone of Evan's message (and others of his recently) to be overly self-aggrandizing and whiny at the same time.   If he's going to post in a public forum, the forum is entitled to have its reactions.   I'm not asking anyone else to agree with or share in my reaction.

We're all aspies on this bus...

I think this project could be more successful if it had more concrete promises, or allowed a view into its creation.  I've backed and been pleased by the results of several book efforts on Kickstarter, all of which provided incremental updates.

--sma

From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Wed Feb 11 18:58:15 2015
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 16:58:15 -0800
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
Message-ID: <20150211165815.4ca4703d@asrock.bcwi.net>

On Wed, 11 Feb 2015 18:04:58 -0500 (EST)
Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Roe Peterson wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Feb 11, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 2/11/15 1:56 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
> >>>> netbooting NetBSD (install doable for that one.)
> >>>
> >>> You'll need to put something together that can talk to the raw
> >>> scsi interface and issue your own read commands. Are they common
> >>> command set drives?
> >>
> >> Should be.  I don't believe CompuServe did anything too silly.
> >
> > What, actually, is the blocksize?  1024 or ?
> >
> 
> 576 or 2304.

The "scu" utility, which is available for both NT and linux
environments can change the blocksize - and scads of other parameters
on most SCSI disks. It's powerful enough that you can brick a drive
if you're not careful ;)

I used to buy NOS Tandem SCSI HDD dirt cheap because they had a weird
blocksize that would make Windows/Linux systems barf. I would then
use "scu" to change the blocksize parameter of the drive to 512 - and do
a low level format. Then I'd have a "standard" SCSI HDD for a fraction
of the price of a "standard" drive.

Of course you could change the blocksize of a drive to 576 - or
anything you wanted - and then do a low level format for that blocksize.

You can pickup scu for NT and linux (including help and summary pdfs)
by anonymous ftp to my website via certain browsers or:

ftp bickleywest.com
user: anonymous
password: your email address
cd scu
....

Regards,
Lyle



-- 
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From imp at bsdimp.com  Wed Feb 11 19:04:20 2015
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 18:04:20 -0700
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <20150211165815.4ca4703d@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <20150211165815.4ca4703d@asrock.bcwi.net>
Message-ID: <E85B454D-3E3B-40FB-898F-66BAFE3F73E6@bsdimp.com>


> On Feb 11, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015 18:04:58 -0500 (EST)
> Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Roe Peterson wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Feb 11, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2/11/15 1:56 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
>>>>>> netbooting NetBSD (install doable for that one.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> You'll need to put something together that can talk to the raw
>>>>> scsi interface and issue your own read commands. Are they common
>>>>> command set drives?
>>>> 
>>>> Should be.  I don't believe CompuServe did anything too silly.
>>> 
>>> What, actually, is the blocksize?  1024 or ?
>>> 
>> 
>> 576 or 2304.
> 
> The "scu" utility, which is available for both NT and linux
> environments can change the blocksize - and scads of other parameters
> on most SCSI disks. It's powerful enough that you can brick a drive
> if you're not careful ;)
> 
> I used to buy NOS Tandem SCSI HDD dirt cheap because they had a weird
> blocksize that would make Windows/Linux systems barf. I would then
> use "scu" to change the blocksize parameter of the drive to 512 - and do
> a low level format. Then I'd have a "standard" SCSI HDD for a fraction
> of the price of a "standard" drive.
> 
> Of course you could change the blocksize of a drive to 576 - or
> anything you wanted - and then do a low level format for that blocksize.
> 
> You can pickup scu for NT and linux (including help and summary pdfs)
> by anonymous ftp to my website via certain browsers or:
> 
> ftp bickleywest.com
> user: anonymous
> password: your email address
> cd scu
> ?.

Isn?t the scu utility a data-destructive one, which would be, ummm, really bad for
recovering the data from these drives?

Warner


From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Wed Feb 11 19:14:51 2015
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:14:51 -0800
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <E85B454D-3E3B-40FB-898F-66BAFE3F73E6@bsdimp.com>
References: <20150211165815.4ca4703d@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <E85B454D-3E3B-40FB-898F-66BAFE3F73E6@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <20150211171451.2eb41e15@asrock.bcwi.net>

On Wed, 11 Feb 2015 18:04:20 -0700
Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:

> 
> > On Feb 11, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Lyle Bickley
> > <lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, 11 Feb 2015 18:04:58 -0500 (EST)
> > Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
> > 
> >> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Roe Peterson wrote:
> >> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>> On Feb 11, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> On 2/11/15 1:56 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
> >>>>>> netbooting NetBSD (install doable for that one.)
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> You'll need to put something together that can talk to the raw
> >>>>> scsi interface and issue your own read commands. Are they common
> >>>>> command set drives?
> >>>> 
> >>>> Should be.  I don't believe CompuServe did anything too silly.
> >>> 
> >>> What, actually, is the blocksize?  1024 or ?
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> 576 or 2304.
> > 
> > The "scu" utility, which is available for both NT and linux
> > environments can change the blocksize - and scads of other
> > parameters on most SCSI disks. It's powerful enough that you can
> > brick a drive if you're not careful ;)
> > 
> > I used to buy NOS Tandem SCSI HDD dirt cheap because they had a
> > weird blocksize that would make Windows/Linux systems barf. I would
> > then use "scu" to change the blocksize parameter of the drive to
> > 512 - and do a low level format. Then I'd have a "standard" SCSI
> > HDD for a fraction of the price of a "standard" drive.
> > 
> > Of course you could change the blocksize of a drive to 576 - or
> > anything you wanted - and then do a low level format for that
> > blocksize.
> > 
> > You can pickup scu for NT and linux (including help and summary
> > pdfs) by anonymous ftp to my website via certain browsers or:
> > 
> > ftp bickleywest.com
> > user: anonymous
> > password: your email address
> > cd scu
> > ?.
> 
> Isn?t the scu utility a data-destructive one, which would be, ummm,
> really bad for recovering the data from these drives?

It's a diagnostic tool - you can look at things - or wipe out things.
Your choice...

Lyle

-- 
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From b4 at gewt.net  Wed Feb 11 19:17:04 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 20:17:04 -0500
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <5225AC4D-4D5A-4EE6-BD15-AF5411E5EB60@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111715550.1006@gewt.net>
 <932A9D40-F7DD-4713-9BC0-D8E1D466E168@gmail.com>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111804510.1006@gewt.net>
 <5225AC4D-4D5A-4EE6-BD15-AF5411E5EB60@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <636CAA9D-FE8A-4D1A-A0B3-AED9DDB5EE3E@gewt.net>



Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 11, 2015, at 18:51, Roe Peterson <roeapeterson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>> 
>>> What, actually, is the blocksize?  1024 or ?
>> 
>> 576 or 2304.
> 
> 36 bit, right.  Sorry -:)

No worries! If you want a video in uploading the winner of the 2015 award for worst cinematography right now. ;)

> 
> And serious congratulations on the 40s.  I worked on decsystem 20s back in the day;  very nice machines.  

Thanks! I'm excited to get 'em running!

> 
> In fact, an early Unix project was to (essentially) duplicate the OPR system, including the COMND(?) jsys, so our operators didn't have to learn a new set of procedures. (This was an actuarial/pension mgmt company with 3 Tops-20 systems)

From b4 at gewt.net  Wed Feb 11 19:18:54 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 20:18:54 -0500
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <20150211165815.4ca4703d@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <20150211165815.4ca4703d@asrock.bcwi.net>
Message-ID: <14360540-EB7C-4EF9-BEF5-BBFA3E8C75F7@gewt.net>

Can it read 'em at any blocksize too? Read is far more essential than write.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 11, 2015, at 19:58, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015 18:04:58 -0500 (EST)
> Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
> 
>>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Roe Peterson wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 11, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2/11/15 1:56 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
>>>>>> netbooting NetBSD (install doable for that one.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> You'll need to put something together that can talk to the raw
>>>>> scsi interface and issue your own read commands. Are they common
>>>>> command set drives?
>>>> 
>>>> Should be.  I don't believe CompuServe did anything too silly.
>>> 
>>> What, actually, is the blocksize?  1024 or ?
>> 
>> 576 or 2304.
> 
> The "scu" utility, which is available for both NT and linux
> environments can change the blocksize - and scads of other parameters
> on most SCSI disks. It's powerful enough that you can brick a drive
> if you're not careful ;)
> 
> I used to buy NOS Tandem SCSI HDD dirt cheap because they had a weird
> blocksize that would make Windows/Linux systems barf. I would then
> use "scu" to change the blocksize parameter of the drive to 512 - and do
> a low level format. Then I'd have a "standard" SCSI HDD for a fraction
> of the price of a "standard" drive.
> 
> Of course you could change the blocksize of a drive to 576 - or
> anything you wanted - and then do a low level format for that blocksize.
> 
> You can pickup scu for NT and linux (including help and summary pdfs)
> by anonymous ftp to my website via certain browsers or:
> 
> ftp bickleywest.com
> user: anonymous
> password: your email address
> cd scu
> ....
> 
> Regards,
> Lyle
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bickley Consulting West Inc.
> http://bickleywest.com
> 
> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Feb 11 19:41:10 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 19:41:10 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DBAB7A.9070409@sydex.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com> <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
 <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com> <54DAF903.5070306@sydex.com>
 <54DBA4A1.8050906@pico-systems.com> <54DBAB7A.9070409@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54DC04B6.9010503@pico-systems.com>

On 02/11/2015 01:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/11/2015 10:51 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> I never understood why bubble memory didn't continue to 
>> progress. Vertical
>> Bloch line memory might have eventually developed to the 
>> capacity of
>> modern flash memories, and probably not had the wear-out 
>> problem.
>> They never would have reached the read performance of 
>> flash, but might
>> have kept up with the write performance.
>
> Bulky, power-hungry and expensive, mostly--and slow 
> random-access, as it was recirculating.
>
Well, the original ones were as you say, but there was a lot 
of work going on to make
massive improvements.  Yes, you sure would not want to use 
them as main CPU
memory.  But, as a solid state disk replacement, as flash 
memory sticks are used
today, they might have significant advantages.
> On the other hand, the only thing that seems to be holding 
> MRAM and FRAM back is density.  TI is aggressively 
> marketing MSP430 MCUs with embedded FRAM.
>
Yes, the FRAM looks very interesting, they are just starting 
about 20 years behind
other technologies.  But, they may catch up.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Feb 11 19:47:02 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 19:47:02 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DBAC0C.4060107@sydex.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com> <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
 <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com> <54DAF903.5070306@sydex.com>
 <A396CDF5FB3C412E837AF10DF48DEEF0@310e2> <54DBA574.80906@pico-systems.com>
 <54DBAC0C.4060107@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54DC0616.5010501@pico-systems.com>

On 02/11/2015 01:22 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> That was the Super Bee, right?  8008 CPU, but I thought 
> the memory was MOS shift-register, not bucket-brigade 
> (which I mostly associate with analog applications, such 
> as reverb effects).
No, this predated the super bee.  No CPU at all, just about 
75 TTL ICs, the clock
drivers and the bucket brigade chips.  And, yes, some 
versions of them were
capable of analog signals, and used to make reverbs.

Jon

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 20:16:03 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 19:16:03 -0700
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <CA+oaVqwYLUVS0ksWSoDrm_y0GrmtmYW8v7is0GS-KXFhEEsdaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111715550.1006@gewt.net>
 <CAFrGgTT4==k8KXc0DwK37KVPxe0nsxGYWV1+1-t-NFBBeRJRuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111820180.1006@gewt.net>
 <CA+oaVqwYLUVS0ksWSoDrm_y0GrmtmYW8v7is0GS-KXFhEEsdaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSd1rfO_h3hqJjGnJh9PKLU+-AY2hwbgRAviTuqbtCGbg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Jim Carpenter <jim at deitygraveyard.com> wrote:
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/disc/scsi/5960-8346_C2240_Technical_Reference_Apr92.pdf

That confirms that the drive can be formatted for physical sector
sizes with any even byte count between 180 and 744, and logical block
sizes of 1, 2, 4, or 8 sectors, so 576 byte sectors work, and 576-byte
or 2304-byte logical blocks work.

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 11 22:50:02 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 20:50:02 -0800
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DC0616.5010501@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com> <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
 <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com> <54DAF903.5070306@sydex.com>
 <A396CDF5FB3C412E837AF10DF48DEEF0@310e2> <54DBA574.80906@pico-systems.com>
 <54DBAC0C.4060107@sydex.com> <54DC0616.5010501@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54DC30FA.3060507@sydex.com>

On 02/11/2015 05:47 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/11/2015 01:22 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> That was the Super Bee, right?  8008 CPU, but I thought the memory was
>> MOS shift-register, not bucket-brigade (which I mostly associate with
>> analog applications, such as reverb effects).
> No, this predated the super bee.  No CPU at all, just about 75 TTL ICs,
> the clock
> drivers and the bucket brigade chips.  And, yes, some versions of them were
> capable of analog signals, and used to make reverbs.

Hmm, not familiar with that terminal.  Was it like the IBM terminals 
(2250 IIRC?) that used delay lines for video memory (i.e. the delay line 
didn't drive a ROM character generator, but rather held the generated 
characters)?

--Chuck



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 23:01:09 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 00:01:09 -0500
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DC30FA.3060507@sydex.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com> <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
 <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com> <54DAF903.5070306@sydex.com>
 <A396CDF5FB3C412E837AF10DF48DEEF0@310e2>
 <54DBA574.80906@pico-systems.com> <54DBAC0C.4060107@sydex.com>
 <54DC0616.5010501@pico-systems.com> <54DC30FA.3060507@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcb0Kd1RRem30a=OKh+=-wxCMguj_1Aw25C94OLZ2c29A@mail.gmail.com>

Those would have been the IBM 2260 terminals, but they were beyond
dumb - they were retarded. Each 2260 was more or less just a video
monitor and a keyboard encoder. The brains were all in the 2848
control unit, which had mercury delay lines to service a number of
2260s (maybe up to 16 I think?).

The bad news is that if you ever find a 2260, it will just be another
chrome doughnut in your collection, being useless without a 2848,
which likely just do not exist anymore.

--
Will

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:50 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> On 02/11/2015 05:47 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>
>> On 02/11/2015 01:22 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>>
>>> That was the Super Bee, right?  8008 CPU, but I thought the memory was
>>> MOS shift-register, not bucket-brigade (which I mostly associate with
>>> analog applications, such as reverb effects).
>>
>> No, this predated the super bee.  No CPU at all, just about 75 TTL ICs,
>> the clock
>> drivers and the bucket brigade chips.  And, yes, some versions of them
>> were
>> capable of analog signals, and used to make reverbs.
>
>
> Hmm, not familiar with that terminal.  Was it like the IBM terminals (2250
> IIRC?) that used delay lines for video memory (i.e. the delay line didn't
> drive a ROM character generator, but rather held the generated characters)?
>
> --Chuck
>
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 11 23:05:49 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 21:05:49 -0800
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DC04B6.9010503@pico-systems.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com> <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
 <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com> <54DAF903.5070306@sydex.com>
 <54DBA4A1.8050906@pico-systems.com> <54DBAB7A.9070409@sydex.com>
 <54DC04B6.9010503@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54DC34AD.5030807@sydex.com>

On 02/11/2015 05:41 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/11/2015 01:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> On 02/11/2015 10:51 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>
>>> I never understood why bubble memory didn't continue to progress.
>>> Vertical
>>> Bloch line memory might have eventually developed to the capacity of
>>> modern flash memories, and probably not had the wear-out problem.
>>> They never would have reached the read performance of flash, but might
>>> have kept up with the write performance.
>>
>> Bulky, power-hungry and expensive, mostly--and slow random-access, as
>> it was recirculating.
>>
> Well, the original ones were as you say, but there was a lot of work
> going on to make
> massive improvements.  Yes, you sure would not want to use them as main CPU
> memory.  But, as a solid state disk replacement, as flash memory sticks
> are used
> today, they might have significant advantages.
>> On the other hand, the only thing that seems to be holding MRAM and
>> FRAM back is density.  TI is aggressively marketing MSP430 MCUs with
>> embedded FRAM.
>>
> Yes, the FRAM looks very interesting, they are just starting about 20
> years behind
> other technologies.  But, they may catch up.

I don't think so--density was a problem with bubble memories as with 
FRAM.  I suspect that the geometry needed to hold a charge can simply be 
smaller and easier to fabricate.

Of course,  magnetic recirculating memory is still with us (as disks), 
but I think the sunset is not too far off.

--Chuck


From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Feb 11 23:37:06 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 23:37:06 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DC30FA.3060507@sydex.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com> <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
 <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com> <54DAF903.5070306@sydex.com>
 <A396CDF5FB3C412E837AF10DF48DEEF0@310e2> <54DBA574.80906@pico-systems.com>
 <54DBAC0C.4060107@sydex.com> <54DC0616.5010501@pico-systems.com>
 <54DC30FA.3060507@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54DC3C02.2040203@pico-systems.com>

On 02/11/2015 10:50 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/11/2015 05:47 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>> On 02/11/2015 01:22 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>> That was the Super Bee, right?  8008 CPU, but I thought 
>>> the memory was
>>> MOS shift-register, not bucket-brigade (which I mostly 
>>> associate with
>>> analog applications, such as reverb effects).
>> No, this predated the super bee.  No CPU at all, just 
>> about 75 TTL ICs,
>> the clock
>> drivers and the bucket brigade chips.  And, yes, some 
>> versions of them were
>> capable of analog signals, and used to make reverbs.
>
> Hmm, not familiar with that terminal.  Was it like the IBM 
> terminals (2250 IIRC?) that used delay lines for video 
> memory (i.e. the delay line didn't drive a ROM character 
> generator, but rather held the generated characters)?
>
No, the 2250 had all the "smarts" in the computer room, and 
sent video down a wire to the
terminal.  The terminal had a cheap Zenith TV set in the 
housing, the tuner was still there,
as it was needed to complete the line-voltage heater string 
which had to add up to 120
V.

The original Beehive was a classic dumb serial terminal.  I 
think it had no screen addressing, just
scrolled text with line feed, CR and tab.  The ASCII 
character codes were held in the
serial memory, and the char gen ROM was fast enough to 
convert on the fly, I think.
I should still have the drawings around here somewhere.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Feb 11 23:44:53 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 23:44:53 -0600
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <54DC34AD.5030807@sydex.com>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcgy-0Goc2Y-YvTGnLtRH+9EhXfB-71vOQ1FZEihUcuGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DA3E88.1010404@pico-systems.com> <54DA4312.9040406@sydex.com>
 <54DAD1E8.9060101@pico-systems.com> <54DAD8FB.50707@sydex.com>
 <54DAEF25.4080004@pico-systems.com> <54DAF903.5070306@sydex.com>
 <54DBA4A1.8050906@pico-systems.com> <54DBAB7A.9070409@sydex.com>
 <54DC04B6.9010503@pico-systems.com> <54DC34AD.5030807@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54DC3DD5.6080100@pico-systems.com>

On 02/11/2015 11:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/11/2015 05:41 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>> Well, the original ones were as you say, but there was a 
>> lot of work
>> going on to make
>> massive improvements.
> I don't think so--density was a problem with bubble 
> memories as with FRAM.  I suspect that the geometry needed 
> to hold a charge can simply be smaller and easier to 
> fabricate.
>
Look up vertical Bloch line memories.  I think he was at 
IBM, and did some amazing
stuff in the area of planar magnetic memory technology.  
They were just touching
the surface of what could probably be done in making them 
smaller, and applying
IC fabrication techniques to the magnetic memories.  I think 
the magnetic drive
lines could also be integrated onto the chip, reducing the 
inductance and power
required.  Anyway, Bloch had developed some stuff that could 
have advanced
WAY beyond the original bubble memories.

Jon

From jason at textfiles.com  Thu Feb 12 00:19:16 2015
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 01:19:16 -0500
Subject: Crowdfunding for history book
In-Reply-To: <54DB7C14.4070209@cimmeri.com>
References: <54DAEA1B.3090708@snarc.net>
	<54DB7C14.4070209@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd2r5a=YnQLgT85F3rT9CYmCZ4hjxChx6PM4beLW2UJ1UA@mail.gmail.com>

Just when I think the vintage/retro computing lists I'm on have sunk as low
as they go, and it can only be nodes among the continuum from there on out,
John comes blazing out of nowhere with a new,
screech-of-the-bottom-of-the-barrel-getting-hit howler response like this
one.

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:58 AM, js at cimmeri.com <js at cimmeri.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 2/11/2015 12:35 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote:
>
>> Hello cctalk'ers,
>>
>> Hopefully this message won't offend anyone --- I recognize that I might,
>> and I apologize in advance if it does.
>>
>> As many of you know, I've been in the vintage computing hobby for about a
>> decade. The first person I met was Sellam Ismail. He helped guide me as a
>> newb collector of handheld/pocket computers.
>>
>> Somehow that led to me co-founding MARCH, publishing a 1,000-subscriber
>> newsletter for a few years, rescuing a mainframe here and there, making the
>> VCF East into a premier event, and becoming a "talking head" everywhere
>> from BBC Radio to the Wall Street Journal. (My personal site is
>> www.snarc.net if you really want to know more ... bring popcorn.)
>>
>> Now I'm asking for some personal help from the community.
>>
>> I'm trying something radical: crowd funding, so that I can finally finish
>> the decade-long project of writing my book about the history of mobile
>> computing.
>>
>> You can imagine how frustrated I feel when telling my family "I'm in the
>> The Wall Street Journal!" but that I'm also dangerously under-employed
>> (having been spit out of the technical journalism field after 16 years). It
>> does not compute.
>>
>
>
> Sure it computes.  Vintage computing -- currently -- is just hobby-worthy,
> and your little Man-On-Street quotes appearing here and there are hardly
> income worthy.   Your experience compared to the Real Guys on this list (of
> which I don't qualify to rank as either) barely qualifies you as anything,
> much less a "talking head" for vintage computing.  You're a talking head
> for MARCH.  That's it.
>
> Why should people PAY you to write a book?   Only established authors with
> some kind of track record get an advance from their publishers.
>
> Annoyed,
> - J.
>

From billdeg at buzz1.com  Wed Feb 11 12:23:42 2015
From: billdeg at buzz1.com (B Degnan)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 13:23:42 -0500
Subject: SIMH LGP-30 Progress.
Message-ID: <441e8ed9$7d9d5ac8$2a42884b$@buzz1.com>

On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, B Degnan wrote:
> > via trial and error, and a lot of reading.  I believe that loading the
> > bootstrap manually is a must; one cannot use or create tapes 
otherwise.
> 
> Only if your drum memory loses its contents. I don't know if SIMH has a 
> concept of non-volatile main storage (drum, core). And for the LGP-30, 
all 
> registers are non-volatile, too.

When I fire up the SIMH and check 6300 we have 

00000000 

If the bootstrap came pre-loaded the first instruction of bootstrap should 
be in 6300 and read 

10000000 

so, no unless the bootstrap is somewhere other than where I think it should 
be, memory is completely blank when SIMH is loaded. 

> > In order to enter instructions into memory I first learned how to 
translate
> > code from the various actual papertape sources, for example...
> >
> > "flexowriter entry"> 6300 P 0000'
> >
> > becomes
> >
> > sim> d -a 6300 10000000
> 
> Urks, that's sick... but SIMH should offer the possibility to enter the 
> mnemonics and addresses (or anything else since everything is mapped to 
> its four bit code) like
> sim> d -a 3w00 p0000     (or d -a 6300 p0000 

sim> d -a 3w00 p0000 

Invalid argument  

The SIMH *should* accept mnemonics ... Believe me I tried EVERYTHING ... 
but unless there are hidden command switches you have to convert your code 
to machine format.  Scoured the entire C source code looking for clues.  
:-)

<snip>
> sim> g 3w00 

g is not a legal command.  You have to tell SIMH to execute with a "SET CPU 
[command]" 

> 
> Anyways, SIMH is not very well suited for machines like an LGP-30 where 
> the user interaction with typewriter and console buttons for operation is 

> imperative. The SIMH version does officially work, but it is not really 
> user friendly in this case. 

Tell me about it.  I have written to the SIMH user group, so far I have not 
received a reply with tips/testing done to verify "officially work" 
boundaries. 

> But the best would be if you use a drum image with 10.4 (the monitor) 
> already loaded, i.e. save the memory contents to a file and reload it on 

> the next incarnation of SIMH (there's a "START" drum containing 10.4 in 
my 
> simulator package, and an "ACT5" drum with preloaded ACT-V and 
> subroutines, these may be usable in SIMH, but I don't know).
> 
> > repertoire.  The hardest part is finding ways to enter Flexowriter key
> > input via a modern keyboard, using SIMH commands.
> 
> By using a simulator that offers the right frontend to the user (i.e. 
keys 
> and buttons as required by the machine operations) *g*
> 
> Christian

Christian....I am going to keep at it and then script a bootstrap that will 
load in SIMH, or convert tapes to SIMH format so they can be imported.  I 
can see why you did what you did with your simulator.  Makes a lot of sense 
to use function keys. 

Here is the bootstrap I am working to complete. I need to find equivalents 
to the Flexowriter commands, I have finished the memory insert commands, 
please send suggestions if you have them. 

sim> [first cpu fill c6300 in IR?] 
sim> d -a 6300 10000000 
sim> d -a 6301 01000000 
sim> d -a 6302 11016305 
sim> d -a 6303 10000000 
sim> d -a 6304 01000000 

here is where I need to experiment, the code below is my first attempt: 
6305 (skip) 
6306 10106300 
6307 10000000 
6308 01000000 
6309 (skip O.G.W.C flexo keys, still need to convert) 
6310 00016346 
6311 11116326 
6312 10106322 
6313 00000000 
6314 10100000 
6322 10116313 
6323 11006309 
6324 11016346 
6325 10106307 
6326 000wwwwj (entered into by flexowr., need to convert) 
6346 0gwc0000 (entered into by flexor, need to convert)                 

Bill


From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 13:55:04 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 12:55:04 -0700
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A module" and M8163
> "Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
> They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
> regarding it. [...]
> Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?

The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
on it.

Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
built for the cancelled 11/74.

From mattislind at gmail.com  Thu Feb 12 02:19:48 2015
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 09:19:48 +0100
Subject: Failed ICs and components
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUzqJyfknXR0P55-8aZikdkNZZrzJSQ=1WspOvbG-KBE2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUzqJyfknXR0P55-8aZikdkNZZrzJSQ=1WspOvbG-KBE2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SKCbepxsFYH+UgEQGt1tr0iF_VcnCwA9zztUJ4Q2MHdDA@mail.gmail.com>

When I was repairing my HP9810 (
http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/hewlett-packard/hp9810a) I replaced 13
TTL ICs. 12 out of 13 were National Semiconductor, one was Signetics. There
were all sorts of TTL types, 7400, 7402, 74H40, 74H53, 7474 etc. I sent 6
to Marc Verdiell that X-rayed them but there were no apparent fault visible
from those X-rays. I still have six or seven left that I can send to you if
you like. They are all manufactured around 1972.

2015-02-11 23:57 GMT+01:00 Kyle Owen <kylevowen at gmail.com>:

> I am writing my master's thesis on accelerated life testing and would like
> to get a collection of parts to decap and experiment on. What prompted my
> study is a failed 7474 dual flip-flop in a PDP-8/E. As I later read (on
> here, I believe) was that the 7474s seem to fail in higher number than
> other 7400-series ICs. Is this because of a design flaw? I'm not sure
> (yet), but would like to find out.
>
> More recently, I saw a 680k 2W carbon resistor that read 1.3 meg out of
> circuit. As it turns out, it was in a high voltage portion of the circuit,
> and I suspect that electromigration caused its failure over time. Many of
> you are probably already aware that carbon resistors tend to increase in
> value as they age, though there are a few explanations too for that
> behavior, as I understand it.
>
> I would like to tie all of this together by researching older accelerated
> life testing schemes, examine how those parts actually fared, and see how
> current day models might be improved.
>
> If anyone has a collection of dead ICs (preferably those that have died
> inexplicably, and not by extreme overvoltage, for instance), I would like
> to talk to you about getting a few. If they are 7474s from Texas
> Instruments, ca. early 1970s, even better!
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Kyle
>

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Thu Feb 12 03:42:42 2015
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 10:42:42 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimm_P7O3PfQS+xeMnWV8=p04wyXm53pQ70GnNbCdUdCyFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
 <201502112217.RAA13436@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAALmimm_P7O3PfQS+xeMnWV8=p04wyXm53pQ70GnNbCdUdCyFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502121040560.32494@linuxserv.home>

On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> It's been a while since I fiddled with NetBSD, but would sg3_utils be
> a good starting point for how to tackle this?
>
> http://linux.die.net/man/8/sg3_utils
>

Right, and I think especially sg_dd should be capable of this task.

Christian

From bqt at update.uu.se  Thu Feb 12 04:24:25 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 11:24:25 +0100
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DC7F59.7040302@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-11 20:55, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A module" and M8163
>> "Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
>> They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
>> regarding it. [...]
>> Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
>
> The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
> multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
> have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
> on it.

I don't think that 11/72 is a valid designation. All documentation I've 
read only calls it an 11/74, no matter how many CPUs you have.

You can find documentation on the MKA11 in the 11/74 documentation.
(See 
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/EK-70MP-TM_PRE_1170mp_Prelim_Technical_Manual_1977.pdf)

And in there, you can find that:

M8162 is a "Multiport Multiplexor Module"

and

M8163 is a "Single Port Jumper Card".

So yes, both of these cards are for the MKA11.

I would guess that you use the M8163 if you have an MKA11 but just a 
single CPU.

> Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
> and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
> built for the cancelled 11/74.

I've heard similar. And also that CPU cards for the 11/74 were installed 
in 11/70 systems. The differences don't matter for normal operation, and 
it will work like a normal 11/70. You can detect if differences if you 
try, but the system will work like any other 11/70.

Only a few CPU modules differ between an 11/70 and 11/74 anyway.

	Johnny


From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Thu Feb 12 04:53:07 2015
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 11:53:07 +0100
Subject: Failed ICs and components
In-Reply-To: <721974d58d5f9fe9aee2adb3a23ff12c@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net>
References: <CAKtEYUzqJyfknXR0P55-8aZikdkNZZrzJSQ=1WspOvbG-KBE2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <721974d58d5f9fe9aee2adb3a23ff12c@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net>
Message-ID: <08685916752881cebcfe1d361d66dd25@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net>

Also from HP 98xx repairs and also from other hp computer equipment. About 50 or more defective 74hxx and 74xx. I'll try to make a list this weekend. 
In my experience 74h have a larger failure rate the the 74 series H08 ,  H4x and 7412x the highest.

-Rik

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: "Rik Bos" <hp-fix at xs4all.nl>
Verzonden: ?12-?2-?2015 00:12
Aan: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: RE: Failed ICs and components

Kile,

I've  a lot defective 74xx's most of them having hp numbers. Date range 72-80.
But the ic's are located in the Netherlands.
If you're interested contact me off-list.

-Rik

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: "Kyle Owen" <kylevowen at gmail.com>
Verzonden: ?11-?2-?2015 23:57
Aan: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: Failed ICs and components

I am writing my master's thesis on accelerated life testing and would like
to get a collection of parts to decap and experiment on. What prompted my
study is a failed 7474 dual flip-flop in a PDP-8/E. As I later read (on
here, I believe) was that the 7474s seem to fail in higher number than
other 7400-series ICs. Is this because of a design flaw? I'm not sure
(yet), but would like to find out.

More recently, I saw a 680k 2W carbon resistor that read 1.3 meg out of
circuit. As it turns out, it was in a high voltage portion of the circuit,
and I suspect that electromigration caused its failure over time. Many of
you are probably already aware that carbon resistors tend to increase in
value as they age, though there are a few explanations too for that
behavior, as I understand it.

I would like to tie all of this together by researching older accelerated
life testing schemes, examine how those parts actually fared, and see how
current day models might be improved.

If anyone has a collection of dead ICs (preferably those that have died
inexplicably, and not by extreme overvoltage, for instance), I would like
to talk to you about getting a few. If they are 7474s from Texas
Instruments, ca. early 1970s, even better!

Thanks in advance,

Kyle

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb 12 07:42:25 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 08:42:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: imitation game movie
Message-ID: <20150212134225.6184718C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Chuck Guzis

    > Any more so, than, say, William Gardner Pfann?

Another name I didn't recognize - I knew there was someone who did zone
refining, and that it was critical, but didn't know the name.


    > From: Jon Elson

    > The XX system??  What's that?

You likely already know of this, just not under this name; here:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-Cross_System

Briefly, during WWII, the British ran the entire German espionage system in
the UK; initially, only for counter-intelligence purposes, but later on, to
actively feed the Germans disinformation.

    > Another really great story is the X gerat, (X equipment in English)
    > that sent narrow, high frequency radio beams over England. 

For anyone who hasn't read it, I highly recommend R. V. Jones' book, "The
Wizard War" - it covers all the various navigation systems (on both sides),
and much more. I can also recommend "The Secret War", by Brian Johnson (the
companion book to a BBC series), which covers that, radar, the V-weapons,
code-breaking, and much more.


    > From: Johnny Billquist

    >> stored-program (in the sense of 'one memory holds both instructions
    >> and data')

    > What do you mean by "stored program" then?

Err... :-)

	Noel

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Feb 12 08:07:11 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 09:07:11 -0500
Subject: imitation game movie
In-Reply-To: <20150212134225.6184718C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150212134225.6184718C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddFeSbA5HGyKz3Vh0p8KMTTDrac5mLrmeWqdfGr1Pv18g@mail.gmail.com>

> For anyone who hasn't read it, I highly recommend R. V. Jones' book, "The
> Wizard War" - it covers all the various navigation systems (on both sides),
> and much more.

This is very good book, but it is getting a bit outdated - at least
the old edition I read many years ago (has it been updated? I do not
know.). In the past 15 or so years, quite a lot of information about
German technology has come out* that takes a bit of the shine off
Allied developments.

* and not from the Space Nazi nut jobs, either. They can be ignored.

--
Will

From js at cimmeri.com  Thu Feb 12 10:22:37 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 11:22:37 -0500
Subject: Crowdfunding for history book
In-Reply-To: <FDA1F3AD-7C3A-43EA-84E9-D94A5BEBCBED@me.com>
References: <54DB7C14.4070209@cimmeri.com>
 <1548340223.2025338.1423676615724.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <54DBD90F.3040100@cimmeri.com> <FDA1F3AD-7C3A-43EA-84E9-D94A5BEBCBED@me.com>
Message-ID: <54DCD34D.8060805@cimmeri.com>



On 2/11/2015 7:26 PM, Steve Algernon wrote:
>> That begs the question as to whether it really needs doing it all.
> One of my favorite books, and one that I return to year after year, is 'Hackers' by Steven Levy.  I read this book in high school in the 80s and it helped set my life direction. I'm not alone - I think there was an article about John Carmack being influenced by it as well, and when I was interviewing a few years ago, the founder of the company I visited also called out the book  "Have you read this!?".  I'm glad that book was written. Would / could Evan's be as seminal?
*
I know the "Hackers" book you reference, 
but I kinda doubt that "mobile 
computing" has the intrigue, mystique, 
and scope that the story of the computer 
revolution's original hackers does..   
The only way, of course, to answer that 
question, is to let the market 
(crowdsourcing, in this instance?) decide.


*
>> Point taken, but I found the tone of Evan's message (and others of his recently) to be overly self-aggrandizing and whiny at the same time.   If he's going to post in a public forum, the forum is entitled to have its reactions.   I'm not asking anyone else to agree with or share in my reaction.
> We're all aspies on this bus...
>
> I think this project could be more successful if it had more concrete promises, or allowed a view into its creation.  I've backed and been pleased by the results of several book efforts on Kickstarter, all of which provided incremental updates.

*Yes, I agree.  If the tone wasn't "I'm 
such an important dude, it doesn't 
compute why I'm broke so please fund me 
to write this book" and instead were, 
"hey, this is what I'm thinking of 
doing... here's my outline of the 
project... here's who might be 
interested in this book.. here's what 
steps I'll take to meet this goal... 
would you please consider helping fund 
this project?"  then it would be a much 
easier sell.

- J.


*


From holm at freibergnet.de  Thu Feb 12 11:45:20 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 18:45:20 +0100
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <347C87A5-5B88-4CC6-A00D-04A98AE598CD@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>
 <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150208112054.GB14680@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <E82CB6D2-0C47-4A61-870C-AE7B8B59A8D6@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150209081639.GB89656@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <280D55F3-EDAC-4762-859E-6E0D2B3727CB@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150210212114.GA18088@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <347C87A5-5B88-4CC6-A00D-04A98AE598CD@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <20150212174520.GA12977@beast.freibergnet.de>

Brent Hilpert wrote:

> On 2015-Feb-10, at 1:21 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> > Brent Hilpert wrote:
> > 
> > [..]
> > 
> > Oh yes Brent, now, since you've corrected every single bit from what I
> > say'd, do you feel better?
> > 
> > I'm repairing TTL based circuits and old computers for more than 30 years
> > now and I still have to find an defective 74S240 with an Input at 2 Volts
> > that destroyed an Xtal-Oscilltor Output.
> 
> > Oh yes, it's possible, maybe I'll struggle about one in the next 30 years,
> > maybe not.
> > 
> > Maybe I find one that read's the open input as Low and it ready High when I
> > connect it with an pullup Resistor to Vcc. (learned that's the real test)
> > For sure I won't leave it on the pcb.
> > 
> > Do what you want, you always know better.
> 
> It's not likely that you would have encountered that scenario and it's not likely you will.
> That doesn't mean anything.
> While there are some faults that may be considered typical or common, many are simply unique. They are unlikely up to the instant they occur and then they continue to be unlikely (to occur again).
> 
> Over the decades (as I recall, I first played with TTL in 1972) I have observed that when semiconductors fail - especially when of their own volition and not due to external trauma - they can fail in very strange and bizarre ways.
> 
> I once encountered some failed ICs that would work after heating them up with a soldering iron and then revert to failure again - not after a few minutes of cooling off - but days or weeks later.
> 
> I once encountered a common JFET that one day decided it would become a sensor for changes in the surrounding electrostatic field. The equipment would intermittently hang up until power-cycled. It was eventually correlated to the activation of a neon indicator, triggering a nearby JFET to latch up in conduction. Opening the equipment moved the bulb an inch or two away from the JFET, and now it was fine. That was hell to figure out and realise what was going on. No it wasn't noise on supply lines, it was mere physical proximity. Many would have just shotgun-replaced components until the thing worked and put it in the category of "bad transistor" without having any idea of the unique nature of the fault. Was that fault scenario likely? Will I, you, or anyone encounter that again?
> 
> Not long ago I encountered a similar situation as the OP: traced a fault to a two-point circuit (a PROM IC output driving a data input of a 4-bit TTL register, well, 3-point including a pull-up resistor). After eliminating the R as a problem, it was difficult to discern whether the output or the input was the fault source and I don't like hacking up PCBs or making scattershot, unnecessary parts replacements to find a fault. I assessed as I could and eventually decided it was the PROM, probably swayed that way as it would seem the more likely part to fail. So I went to a lot of trouble to build programmer hardware, write control software, source the ROM contents, burn and install the new PROM.
> The PROM output wasn't the problem. The input was the faulty point. I wish I had made more measurements.
> 
> The OP's situation was such: unexplained semiconductor failure. While it was more probable it was something in the oscillator I wasn't about to make presumptions. When advising on repairs from a distance I try to cover the range of possibilities to pursue a course that will make accurate eliminations, and not go down a path that may falsely eliminate from consideration even unlikely failures (which testing the input only open-circuit could have done). Like my PROM, the OP's xtal osc is not a readily sourced part and checking the input might have been fortuitous.


I think most of "repair People" had unusual faults to find in the past.

Nevertheless all this has nothing todo with the faulty Oscillator (I'm sure
I'll find some of them in my xtal box, the frequency isn't really unusual).
The M8186 Board has aa Jumper between the xtal output und the Driver so the
bug is easy to find.

An 74S240 has to rad High with an open input and it has to read hig with an
Input connected to Vcc and it has to read high with an input connected with
a 1K resistor to Vcc... all the same. The interesting thing is if it reads
low when connected to GND.
That's almost all that matters for the check period.

Now go and tell your wife about it.

Regards,

Holm


-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb 12 12:38:55 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 11:38:55 -0700
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <54DC7F59.7040302@update.uu.se>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DC7F59.7040302@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTTnP=K9=0R6MbWRFGxiX92dmaPw29O54hWE1CfoOVTPg@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 12, 2015 3:24 AM, "Johnny Billquist" <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
> I don't think that 11/72 is a valid designation. All documentation I've
read only calls it an 11/74, no matter how many CPUs you have.

Neither is a "valid designation", since neither was orderable. Some
internal DEC documentation on the multiprocessor systems referred to an
11/72, some didn't.  Even for relased products there were often changes in
the designations before release. The marketing people have to appear to be
doing *something* to justify all the money they spend.

From bqt at update.uu.se  Thu Feb 12 13:06:41 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 20:06:41 +0100
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTTnP=K9=0R6MbWRFGxiX92dmaPw29O54hWE1CfoOVTPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DC7F59.7040302@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTTTnP=K9=0R6MbWRFGxiX92dmaPw29O54hWE1CfoOVTPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DCF9C1.5020803@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-12 19:38, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Feb 12, 2015 3:24 AM, "Johnny Billquist" <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>> I don't think that 11/72 is a valid designation. All documentation I've
> read only calls it an 11/74, no matter how many CPUs you have.
>
> Neither is a "valid designation", since neither was orderable. Some
> internal DEC documentation on the multiprocessor systems referred to an
> 11/72, some didn't.  Even for relased products there were often changes in
> the designations before release. The marketing people have to appear to be
> doing *something* to justify all the money they spend.

Well, the 11/74 designation do exist in plenty of documentation, even if 
it never was a product sold. There were lots of things made inside DEC 
that never was sold. They still had names.

But the 11/72 designation is not something I can find in any 
documentation. The 11/74 designation on the other hand is something you 
can find in lots of places.

	Johnny


From kylevowen at gmail.com  Thu Feb 12 13:51:20 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 13:51:20 -0600
Subject: Failed ICs and components
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3FA6@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <CAKtEYUzqJyfknXR0P55-8aZikdkNZZrzJSQ=1WspOvbG-KBE2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3FA6@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUzup8a4WJi8uft0_PMmLyZt5z_acFbZCzZWp+hRocCqpQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:16 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The startup resistors of 'normal' SMPSUs are well-known for failing. They
> are typically around 100k and have about 200V across them, so it's not
> an over-power issue. It would be interesting to know how they failed.
>
> Perhaps somebody who repairs SMPSUs could keep a few for you.


That sounds quite promising. I am looking forward to doing some life
testing on newer devices as well.

ARGH! It is a pity you didn't ask for this about 3 months ago. I had kept
> all the ICs I had replaced in HP98x0 machines, these were mostly TTL and
> probably some TI ones. Certainly a fair number of 7474s and 74H40s.
> Alas I am pretty sure that is one thing I didn't bother to keep and move
> to the new house. If I am wrong about that and they turn up here you are
> welcome to them.


Darn! That sounded like a good collection. Alas, I know I haven't kept
every bad IC either (except that one from the PDP-8/E...not really sure why
until now, I guess). But if you do find them, I could certainly use them.

Kyle

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Thu Feb 12 14:07:28 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 21:07:28 +0100
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <20150212174520.GA12977@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>
 <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150208112054.GB14680@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <E82CB6D2-0C47-4A61-870C-AE7B8B59A8D6@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150209081639.GB89656@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <280D55F3-EDAC-4762-859E-6E0D2B3727CB@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150210212114.GA18088@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <347C87A5-5B88-4CC6-A00D-04A98AE598CD@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150212174520.GA12977@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <E871E9B5-5510-4567-8E39-50034A53E846@dunnington.plus.com>

> On 12 Feb 2015, at 18:45, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> 
> An 74S240 has to rad High with an open input and it has to read hig with an
> Input connected to Vcc and it has to read high with an input connected with
> a 1K resistor to Vcc... all the same. 

I could write a reply noting your error(s), or suggesting you've not paid any attention, or considering list etiquette and trimming posts but as I expect everyone else is bored by now I'm tempted to summarise with a single word (my last).

Plonk. 

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb 12 14:49:26 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 12:49:26 -0800
Subject: Failed ICs and components
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUzup8a4WJi8uft0_PMmLyZt5z_acFbZCzZWp+hRocCqpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUzqJyfknXR0P55-8aZikdkNZZrzJSQ=1WspOvbG-KBE2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3FA6@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CAKtEYUzup8a4WJi8uft0_PMmLyZt5z_acFbZCzZWp+hRocCqpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DD11D6.50905@sydex.com>

On 02/12/2015 11:51 AM, Kyle Owen wrote:

> Darn! That sounded like a good collection. Alas, I know I haven't kept
> every bad IC either (except that one from the PDP-8/E...not really sure why
> until now, I guess). But if you do find them, I could certainly use them.


Just curious--has anyone ever done a life-cycle study on 
plastic-packaged vs. CerDIP packaged SSI TTL?

--Chuck


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb 12 16:11:07 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 17:11:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11/45 hack?
Message-ID: <20150212221107.9398318C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Eric Smith

    > The memory controller does have a Unibus port, but the Fastbus memory
    > modules are not on the Unibus any more than an RP04 disk drive is on
    > the Unibus.

Ah, OK, I guess it all depends on exactly what one means by 'directly'... :-)

I was using it in a high-level architectural sense: there's a 1:1
correspondence between UNIBUS addresses and Fastbus memory addresses; a
UNIBUS read/write cycle completes immediately with the contents of that cell;
etc - all quite different from the RP0x example. IOW, at a very high level,
it looks like other 'memory on the UNIBUS'.

    > To a first approximation, the two Unibuses are *always* jumpered
    > together.

I seem to recall reading (don't remember where, it was a long time ago) of
some place that actually made use of the dual UNIBUS thing; they hung some
other PDP-11 (don't recall what kind) off UNIBUS B, and ran a primitive
multi-processor. It was some sort of high-speed data acquisition, or perhaps
a real-time simulator - something like that.

Anyone else know of any place that used the dual UNIBUS capability?

	Noel

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Thu Feb 12 17:18:02 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 23:18:02 +0000
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTT4==k8KXc0DwK37KVPxe0nsxGYWV1+1-t-NFBBeRJRuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111715550.1006@gewt.net>
 <CAFrGgTT4==k8KXc0DwK37KVPxe0nsxGYWV1+1-t-NFBBeRJRuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D87A77@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Eric Smith
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 3:16 PM

> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 3:16 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Al Kossow wrote:

>>> Are they common command set drives?

>> Should be.  I don't believe CompuServe did anything too silly.

> I don't have any special insight into it, but wouldn't it have been a
> matter of whether Systems Concepts did anything too silly? Surely
> Compuserve must have purchased whatever kind of drives SC specified
> for use with the SC40, even when Compuserve built the machines
> themselves.

> SC certainly wasn't a large enough purchaser of disk drives that any
> of the mainstream disk manufacturers would have built anything
> particularly special for them.  However, there were a lot of standard
> SCSI drives that could be formatted with a user-specified block size.
> Some allowed arbitrary size within a range, while others only had a
> few specific choices.

I don't believe that Stewart ever did anything with SCSI disks.  When I
spoke to some of the CompuServe alumni last year, they mentioned that
they had created the SCSI interface for their SC-40 boxes, and did all
the monitor development work for it.

XKL had the same issue in the 1990s.  We ended up sourcing Seagate
Barracudas with OEM (that was us) microcode to allow for a 2304 byte
sector size.

                                                                Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Feb 12 17:30:41 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 15:30:41 -0800
Subject: Failed ICs and components
In-Reply-To: <54DD11D6.50905@sydex.com>
References: <CAKtEYUzqJyfknXR0P55-8aZikdkNZZrzJSQ=1WspOvbG-KBE2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3FA6@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CAKtEYUzup8a4WJi8uft0_PMmLyZt5z_acFbZCzZWp+hRocCqpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DD11D6.50905@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <50B34ED8-D72D-4CC0-9395-372D1786852A@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-12, at 12:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/12/2015 11:51 AM, Kyle Owen wrote:
> 
>> Darn! That sounded like a good collection. Alas, I know I haven't kept
>> every bad IC either (except that one from the PDP-8/E...not really sure why
>> until now, I guess). But if you do find them, I could certainly use them.
> 
> 
> Just curious--has anyone ever done a life-cycle study on plastic-packaged vs. CerDIP packaged SSI TTL?

Well, just a data point, but I've never had to replace an IC in my ca-1970 HP2116, composed of hundreds of SSI chips, 80-90%of which are CerDIP.
They're mostly CT?L, with some TTL, however.
(It's had one quad-pack core driver transistor failure.)

For that age and number of ICs, that's pretty good. Contrast even with other HP equipment.


From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb 12 18:35:04 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 17:35:04 -0700
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D87A77@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111715550.1006@gewt.net>
 <CAFrGgTT4==k8KXc0DwK37KVPxe0nsxGYWV1+1-t-NFBBeRJRuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D87A77@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTS2RYYvg+iJMKONpbANN5bLc19Yifu6ySVvMchU8ACiuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Rich Alderson
<RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:
> I don't believe that Stewart ever did anything with SCSI disks.  When I
> spoke to some of the CompuServe alumni last year, they mentioned that
> they had created the SCSI interface for their SC-40 boxes, and did all
> the monitor development work for it.

Thanks for the explanation. I had been under the misimpression that
SCSI disks were standard on the SC-40, and that the microcode emulated
Massbus drives.

Eric

From b4 at gewt.net  Thu Feb 12 18:38:40 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 19:38:40 -0500
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTS2RYYvg+iJMKONpbANN5bLc19Yifu6ySVvMchU8ACiuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54DBD1D9.5090006@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111715550.1006@gewt.net>
 <CAFrGgTT4==k8KXc0DwK37KVPxe0nsxGYWV1+1-t-NFBBeRJRuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D87A77@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <CAFrGgTS2RYYvg+iJMKONpbANN5bLc19Yifu6ySVvMchU8ACiuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <27514EBA-7EEA-48B7-A8FA-50644A4165C6@gewt.net>

Keep in mind I'm discussing the boot drive, not general expansion. THAT might be emulation.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 12, 2015, at 19:35, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Rich Alderson
> <RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:
>> I don't believe that Stewart ever did anything with SCSI disks.  When I
>> spoke to some of the CompuServe alumni last year, they mentioned that
>> they had created the SCSI interface for their SC-40 boxes, and did all
>> the monitor development work for it.
> 
> Thanks for the explanation. I had been under the misimpression that
> SCSI disks were standard on the SC-40, and that the microcode emulated
> Massbus drives.
> 
> Eric

From wilson at dbit.com  Thu Feb 12 21:41:06 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 22:41:06 -0500
Subject: 11/45 hack?
In-Reply-To: <20150212221107.9398318C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150212221107.9398318C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150213034106.GA17080@dbit.dbit.com>

On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 05:11:07PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>I seem to recall reading (don't remember where, it was a long time ago) of
>some place that actually made use of the dual UNIBUS thing; they hung some
>other PDP-11 (don't recall what kind) off UNIBUS B, and ran a primitive
>multi-processor. It was some sort of high-speed data acquisition, or perhaps
>a real-time simulator - something like that.
>
>Anyone else know of any place that used the dual UNIBUS capability?

The ones I've run into were flight simulators (I think one was a 727?)
that used two PDP-11/45s, running DOS/BATCH I think, with the memory
shared via the split Unibi on the memory controller.  There was also
an IPL (I forget -- DR11Bs or DR11Cs?) connecting the two.

Ersatz-11 emulates this config, in an unsupported way of course.
Ironically, the FASTBUS: pseudo-device is actually slower than regular
memory (since every access has to be mP-safe), but still way faster
than real 11/45s.  But that's what IPL: is for (as a pseudo digital
I/O device).

John Wilson
D Bit

From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 00:00:14 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 00:00:14 -0600
Subject: Any PDP8 for sale..?
In-Reply-To: <2064907592.2699617.1423583326241.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2064907592.2699617.1423583326241.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNiC_L+eEnKQ8Oz_jt78p8heRWJrCN=LyqabTNcZHVGfQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Martin,

I have extra As, Es, Fs, and Ms, with most of the options, but don't have
my test beds set up yet.

Paul

On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Martin Meiner <martin at meiner.ch> wrote:

> Being bitten by "vintage computer restoring" bug, I am long time looking
> for a reasonable condition PDP8, preferably a PDP8/L.
> Is there such a machine out there looking for a new home or can someone
> point me to a possible selling-place other than eBay? EBay has hardly any,
> and just a few weeks ago I unfortunately missed one.
>
> Any help or hint is highly appreciated...
>

From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Feb 13 01:52:54 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 08:52:54 +0100
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <E871E9B5-5510-4567-8E39-50034A53E846@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150208112054.GB14680@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <E82CB6D2-0C47-4A61-870C-AE7B8B59A8D6@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150209081639.GB89656@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <280D55F3-EDAC-4762-859E-6E0D2B3727CB@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150210212114.GA18088@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <347C87A5-5B88-4CC6-A00D-04A98AE598CD@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150212174520.GA12977@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <E871E9B5-5510-4567-8E39-50034A53E846@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <20150213075254.GB71477@beast.freibergnet.de>

Pete Turnbull wrote:

> > On 12 Feb 2015, at 18:45, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> > 
> > An 74S240 has to rad High with an open input and it has to read hig with an
> > Input connected to Vcc and it has to read high with an input connected with
> > a 1K resistor to Vcc... all the same. 
> 
> I could write a reply noting your error(s), or suggesting you've not paid any attention, or considering list etiquette and trimming posts but as I expect everyone else is bored by now I'm tempted to summarise with a single word (my last).
> 
> Plonk. 

Congrats,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Feb 13 02:49:58 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 09:49:58 +0100
Subject: 11/23 clock issue
In-Reply-To: <347C87A5-5B88-4CC6-A00D-04A98AE598CD@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <20150206074405.GA18884@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <54D4AEFC.90704@dunnington.plus.com>
 <20150207192048.GA55055@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <6E6B5F73-21C9-4747-ACA7-D4A55EDD118B@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150208112054.GB14680@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <E82CB6D2-0C47-4A61-870C-AE7B8B59A8D6@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150209081639.GB89656@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <280D55F3-EDAC-4762-859E-6E0D2B3727CB@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150210212114.GA18088@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <347C87A5-5B88-4CC6-A00D-04A98AE598CD@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <20150213084958.GA73838@beast.freibergnet.de>

Brent Hilpert wrote:

[..]


To clarify this up again:

My post to Noels problem was intended to help him repair that M8186 and
exacly this board. I've not meant that Noel should design his own CPU board
and should left unused inputs open or connected to Vcc. I've don't wanted
to discuss design considerations, I've stated this more then one times so
I don't understand why People here trying to mark my post as faulty,
regardless if my post has only todo with repair purposes.

Maybe the '240 is be bad and the fault is only found if one connect it
with a resistor to Vcc but such faults don't happen in reality or "not
likely". One has just to point me to a '240 with such a fault.

Yes, I know, all kind of unusual things could happen with semiconductors
if they get bad, but what the heck should Noel do to repair that thing?
Should he look with en electron beam microscope to the chip? To which chip?
Maybe the Oscillator is ok, but a copper trace on the pcb is burnt since a
tantalum capacitor has a short... maybe..
Remember, the '240's input was floating at approx 2 Volts, that's the
normal voltage that someone wil find on a life chip with an open input.

But why the heck you are trying here to find all kinds of unusal causes
only for the purpose that one cane state: "Holm's hint is bad!"?

I've tought that we are here for fun with old computers and repairing
old electronics and to help each other. I'm wrong it seems.

Sorry Brent, sorry Peter, the only thing that you are reached now is
that I'm now in the asshole mode, giving back what I've got here and since
you aren't interested in my opinion about your persons, why sould I worry
about yours about me?

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Feb 13 04:01:41 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 02:01:41 -0800
Subject: DG chassis and potentially PS.
Message-ID: <54DDCB85.8030700@jwsss.com>

I have a friend with a large stash of DG boards which comes from a 
collection of stuff he and his company had from supporting Novas. He has 
just the stash of boards and would like to get a rig to test them with.

Ideally acquire, but from discussing what he wants to do he would 
probably need a minimal set including power, and the front panel to run 
tests.  I wanted to locats contacts to put him in touch with that might 
be able to help him, and you and he can discuss the best way to do what 
he is after.

I don't know if he wants to sell / trade all of them, end up with a 
working machine or what he may need to do, so he is flexible.

I'll put you in touch with him in whatever manner you feel comfortable with.

thanks
Jim


From oltmansg at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 10:01:04 2015
From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 10:01:04 -0600
Subject: Working Commodore 65 on eBay
Message-ID: <CABVr2Ps=MTs8B8wVrCG6VHn+Bgjeweoa6_k0k+AMJc9n_mM_yA@mail.gmail.com>

I presume I can't be the only one watching this eBay auction in disbelief.
I'm wondering if this is a museum or not. Presumably a private collector
would not have such deep pockets, but you never know!

Over $13k USD and still a little less than 2 days to go!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-rare-Commodore-65-C65-DX64-prototype-working-serial-22/171673209321?_trksid=p2050601.c100261.m3456&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140813125820%26meid%3Df72d5d6ce2d64153ae54f1f396189ec4%26pid%3D100261%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D311226218965%26clkid%3D4051595553107319610&_qi=RTM1963931

From computerdoc at sc.rr.com  Fri Feb 13 02:14:06 2015
From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 03:14:06 -0500
Subject: Any PDP8 for sale..?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuNiC_L+eEnKQ8Oz_jt78p8heRWJrCN=LyqabTNcZHVGfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2064907592.2699617.1423583326241.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACwhfuNiC_L+eEnKQ8Oz_jt78p8heRWJrCN=LyqabTNcZHVGfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ef01d04765$094525e0$1bcf71a0$@sc.rr.com>

Hi Paul,
Really?  I'd like to get a hold of PDF copies of the Documentation.  Do you have a good source for DEC literature, datasheets on these machines?  
What are the features of the various versions you mentioned?  I used a PDP8/E back in high school in 1976 - 1978.  Until tonight, I never knew the processor was an 8008-1 cpu.  I've been studying that chip a little lately.  
I'm just now getting into the retro bug myself where DEC PDP equipment is concerned.  I'd like to get a well-equipped system, but I hesitate to ask the price for the various pieces.  :P  I've been thinking of finding a PDP8 emulated in modern hardware as an alternative.  Please keep me posted on your findings.  I would greatly appreciate it very much.  Thanks in advance.

Kip Koon
computerdoc at sc.rr.com
http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon



-----Original Message-----
From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2015 1:00 AM
To: Martin Meiner; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Any PDP8 for sale..?

Hi Martin,

I have extra As, Es, Fs, and Ms, with most of the options, but don't have my test beds set up yet.

Paul

On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Martin Meiner <martin at meiner.ch> wrote:

> Being bitten by "vintage computer restoring" bug, I am long time 
> looking for a reasonable condition PDP8, preferably a PDP8/L.
> Is there such a machine out there looking for a new home or can 
> someone point me to a possible selling-place other than eBay? EBay has 
> hardly any, and just a few weeks ago I unfortunately missed one.
>
> Any help or hint is highly appreciated...
>


From ad at ardiehl.de  Fri Feb 13 07:12:00 2015
From: ad at ardiehl.de (Armin Diehl)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 14:12:00 +0100
Subject: Microdata disk/tape images
In-Reply-To: <54D6A70C.3070004@jwsss.com>
References: <8D3E7DA5-A0B9-4725-B67F-044745F4C3E2@platinum.net>
 <54D5FC44.6040908@ardiehl.de> <54D6A70C.3070004@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <54DDF820.9080800@ardiehl.de>

On 02/08/2015 01:00 AM, jwsmobile wrote:
>
> On 2/7/2015 3:51 AM, Armin Diehl wrote:
>> On 02/05/2015 10:19 PM, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
>>> Long shot, but does anyone know of any available disk/tape/paper 
>>> tape/ROM images for any of the Microdata machines (800/1600) or the 
>>> relatives (Intertechnique Multi-8/Multi-4, MAI Basic Four BB-II)?
>>>
>>> There?s a bit of documentation available - Bitsavers has a bit, and 
>>> I have some MAI documentation that I?m in the process of scanning.  
>>> I?m toying with the idea of emulating this machine, but I?m having 
>>> difficulty locating any software for it.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> Ian
>> Not exactly that, however, i may have something for BB-IV but i think 
>> these ones used cpu's developed by basic four. I have one 14" 
>> harddisk from a model 210 as well as a disk pack for a basic four 
>> 510, both should be bootable. I have the machines/drives as well but 
>> not yet tried to fire them up. The 210 came with a tape 1/4" drive 
>> but i dont have any tapes.
>>
>> I also thought about writing an emulator but i have not yet found the 
>> manuals for the cpus used (1300 CPU Technical Manual / M1300 Series 
>> CPU Organisation and Description Reference Manual). I have scanned 
>> the available documentation and it is saved at Al's bitsaves site 
>> (pdf/mai/).
>>
>> The 210: http://www.ardiehl.de/basicfour/mai210/pics/small/index.html
>> The 510: http://www.ardiehl.de/basicfour/mai510/pics/small/
> These are very nice photos.  Both of your systems appear to be on the 
> Microdata form factor, and if you were to look at the edge card 
> connector, it is probably a 130 pin (65 x 2) connector.74181 ALU 
> chips.  I see a lot of what appears to be the scale logic that a 1600 
> type CPU or an advanced design could use on that the boards your 
> photographed.
>
> Also the of the 4 switches are they all dual position, or are some 
> momentary?  i believe that Basic 4 in this series of system kept the 4 
> sense switches of the 1600 in their hardware with similar functions 
> across all variations.
>
I have added some more pictures showing the cpu boards of both systems. 
The switches are documented there as well.

http://www.ardiehl.de/basicfour/cpu/small/index.html


> The QIC drives were emerging in the late 70's and early 80's as a 
> storage media, but in the era of the original blue systems with 
> Microdata CPUs they were not around.
>
> Very nice systems.
>
> I don't know how much Century Trident info I have to offer, but I may 
> have documents if Bitsavers does not.  I just got a stash of 
> documentation which comes from the direction of Pick Systems 
> documentation.  They used the 80, 100 and I think 200mb Tridents for 
> their Evolution systems.
The document for the basic four 2460 contains the T80 service manual. 
There are already other documents available on bitsavers. 
(http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/centuryData/) Do you 
have additional ones ?

>
> Thanks
> Jim
>
> The Microdata 1600 cpu will have two
>> Harddisk: 
>> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/mai/BFISD8052_Model_2460_Fixed_Media_Disk_Drive_ServiceManual_1981.pdf 
>>
>> Disk Drive: 
>> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/mai/BFISD8006_Model_2500_Fixed_Disk_Drive_ServiceManual_1979.pdf
>>
>>


From simski at dds.nl  Fri Feb 13 08:10:25 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 15:10:25 +0100
Subject: olivetti programma 101 repair
In-Reply-To: <548DC820.7000702@dds.nl>
References: <548DC820.7000702@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <54DE05D1.3020302@dds.nl>

Hello all,

well, i've remade 53 clips for the backplane, but unfortunately things 
do not inprove. Its even wors now. I can get no reaction from the 
electronics at all. I suspect that not only my clips are wrong, but with 
every insert of a card, other clips are starting to break apart.

for now i've shelved the project and I will look at a way to let all 
clips produced somewhere. fortunately, there is a business in bending 
metal not far away.


writeup on my efforts up till now:
https://hack42.nl/wiki/Repair_Olivetti_Programma_101

simon
On 14-12-14 18:25, Simon Claessen wrote:
> hello all,
>
> I'm in the process of repairing our 101 but i hit a solid wall finding
> out whats wrong with it. are there people with a working copy who could
> do some measurements on their copy?
>
> Unfortunately i have no schematic of the electronics, only the mechanics
> and PSU.
>
> I have made a crappy video of the scope trace of the delay line input
> and i'm very interested in a video of a working machine's delay line. :-)
>
> The video is here:  http://youtu.be/llpwjGeldt0
>
> and a partially repairlog is here:
> https://hack42.nl/wiki/Repair_Olivetti_Programma_101
>
> als scematics are welcome as well. :-)

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From iamvirtual at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 09:17:45 2015
From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 08:17:45 -0700
Subject: DG chassis and potentially PS.
In-Reply-To: <54DDCB85.8030700@jwsss.com>
References: <54DDCB85.8030700@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CADzUgt6fYydR=sxBPHZ9ZGRwAoc6OTjQFWJDOC4Tb2EQDS9G_A@mail.gmail.com>

I have a DG Nova 820 (circa 1978) that I am considering selling.  I think I
also have a disk drive (no cartridges) available as well.  I live near
Calgary Alberta Canada, so shipping is a bit more challenging, but
certainly possible.  I do not believe the machine is in runnable condition,
but I do believe it is repairable.

--barrym

On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 3:01 AM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:

> I have a friend with a large stash of DG boards which comes from a
> collection of stuff he and his company had from supporting Novas. He has
> just the stash of boards and would like to get a rig to test them with.
>
> Ideally acquire, but from discussing what he wants to do he would probably
> need a minimal set including power, and the front panel to run tests.  I
> wanted to locats contacts to put him in touch with that might be able to
> help him, and you and he can discuss the best way to do what he is after.
>
> I don't know if he wants to sell / trade all of them, end up with a
> working machine or what he may need to do, so he is flexible.
>
> I'll put you in touch with him in whatever manner you feel comfortable
> with.
>
> thanks
> Jim
>
>

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 11:31:17 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 11:31:17 -0600
Subject: Any PDP8 for sale..?
In-Reply-To: <00ef01d04765$094525e0$1bcf71a0$@sc.rr.com>
References: <2064907592.2699617.1423583326241.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACwhfuNiC_L+eEnKQ8Oz_jt78p8heRWJrCN=LyqabTNcZHVGfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ef01d04765$094525e0$1bcf71a0$@sc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUzvgk+6TbVuj_fYX3bw4JNHmhakfmAH3n_ARdHpAXmV5A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 2:14 AM, Kip Koon <computerdoc at sc.rr.com> wrote:

> Do you have a good source for DEC literature, datasheets on these machines?
>

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp8/


> Until tonight, I never knew the processor was an 8008-1 cpu.  I've been
> studying that chip a little lately.
>

Where did you read that an 8008 was the main CPU of the PDP-8?


> I'd like to get a well-equipped system, but I hesitate to ask the price
> for the various pieces.


It seems as though the prices for various PDP-8s on eBay range from $1000
on up.


> I've been thinking of finding a PDP8 emulated in modern hardware as an
> alternative.


Besides those built for FPGA usage, there's also the SBC6120, as well as
software emulation like SimH and an OS X simulator.

Kyle

From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Feb 13 11:58:33 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 09:58:33 -0800
Subject: Working Commodore 65 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <CABVr2Ps=MTs8B8wVrCG6VHn+Bgjeweoa6_k0k+AMJc9n_mM_yA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABVr2Ps=MTs8B8wVrCG6VHn+Bgjeweoa6_k0k+AMJc9n_mM_yA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DE3B49.6070207@jwsss.com>


On 2/13/2015 8:01 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote:
> I presume I can't be the only one watching this eBay auction in disbelief.
> I'm wondering if this is a museum or not. Presumably a private collector
> would not have such deep pockets, but you never know!
>
> Over $13k USD and still a little less than 2 days to go!
>
Ultra-rare-Commodore-65-C65-DX64-prototype-working-serial-22

http://www.ebay.com/itm//171673209321

Mr. 544 feedback is being trolled by 0 and 1 feedback idiots.  One has 
to wonder.

I wouldn't use this auction as a reference in an appraisal.

Jim

From cramcram at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 12:52:30 2015
From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 10:52:30 -0800
Subject: Any PDP8 for sale..?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuNiC_L+eEnKQ8Oz_jt78p8heRWJrCN=LyqabTNcZHVGfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2064907592.2699617.1423583326241.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACwhfuNiC_L+eEnKQ8Oz_jt78p8heRWJrCN=LyqabTNcZHVGfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20j8TZM4WLnL5pKY+OFZn2-4dh2tsg3hgoJ=GiwAayv_7tBg@mail.gmail.com>

Gee, I don't suppose you have an FPP8A board set that you''d like to
sell????

Marc

On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Martin,
>
> I have extra As, Es, Fs, and Ms, with most of the options, but don't have
> my test beds set up yet.
>
> Paul
>
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Martin Meiner <martin at meiner.ch> wrote:
>
> > Being bitten by "vintage computer restoring" bug, I am long time looking
> > for a reasonable condition PDP8, preferably a PDP8/L.
> > Is there such a machine out there looking for a new home or can someone
> > point me to a possible selling-place other than eBay? EBay has hardly
> any,
> > and just a few weeks ago I unfortunately missed one.
> >
> > Any help or hint is highly appreciated...
> >
>

From johannesthelen at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 13 13:13:09 2015
From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 21:13:09 +0200
Subject: Wang 2200 disk drives and printers on eBay
Message-ID: <DUB113-W622F4D9AB186E5228BF797CB230@phx.gbl>


Any Wang fans here? I just found these at eBay:
http://stores.ebay.com/Toll-Road-Truck-and-Trailer/Vintage-Computer-/_i.html?_fsub=5960442015&_sid=1050817625&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
I haven't seen too much Wang stuff on sale lately, I hope this tip would be useful for someone...

- Johannes Thelen, Finland
Old computer blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/Company site  www.thelentech.fi

 		 	   		  

From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au  Fri Feb 13 15:40:12 2015
From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 07:40:12 +1000
Subject: building my own relay computer
Message-ID: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>

I've been bouncing around the idea of building my own relay computer

* I have mostly inspired by the TIM project[1] and Harry Porter's Relay
Computer[2]
* I am looking at having a limited number registers like the 6502 or 6800
* the computer is going to be Harvard architecture based

I wondering have any of use done anything like this?

[1] http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/
[2] http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Fri Feb 13 16:20:24 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 14:20:24 -0800
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-13, at 1:40 PM, Tom Sparks wrote:

> I've been bouncing around the idea of building my own relay computer
> 
> * I have mostly inspired by the TIM project[1] and Harry Porter's Relay
> Computer[2]
> * I am looking at having a limited number registers like the 6502 or 6800
> * the computer is going to be Harvard architecture based
> 
> I wondering have any of use done anything like this?
> 
> [1] http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/
> [2] http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/



I've examined and written about (and done some limited implementation of) Simon, which is Harvard architecture.
	 http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/simon/index.html

Due to it's limitations I haven't been all that enthused about fully constructing it however.
It could perhaps be expanded into something more interesting.

There's another relay computer design and implementation here which looks interesting:
	http://www.electronixandmore.com/projects/relaycomputertwo/index.html

From evan at snarc.net  Fri Feb 13 15:58:23 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 16:58:23 -0500
Subject: PERQ
Message-ID: <54DE737F.2010908@snarc.net>

MARCH's PERQ-1 is missing the keyboard and control tablet. Does anyone 
have those that we could borrow, in order to bring up the system? We're 
looking to work on it in June this year.

From pontus at update.uu.se  Fri Feb 13 16:00:07 2015
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 23:00:07 +0100
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <54DE73E7.9050509@update.uu.se>

On 02/13/2015 10:40 PM, Tom Sparks wrote:
> I've been bouncing around the idea of building my own relay computer
>
> * I have mostly inspired by the TIM project[1] and Harry Porter's Relay
> Computer[2]
> * I am looking at having a limited number registers like the 6502 or 6800
> * the computer is going to be Harvard architecture based
>
> I wondering have any of use done anything like this?
>
> [1] http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/
> [2] http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/

Check out Fredriks "Zusie": http://www.nablaman.com/relay/

/P



From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au  Fri Feb 13 16:56:12 2015
From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 08:56:12 +1000
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>

On 14/02/15 08:20, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> On 2015-Feb-13, at 1:40 PM, Tom Sparks wrote:
> 
>> I've been bouncing around the idea of building my own relay computer
>>
>> * I have mostly inspired by the TIM project[1] and Harry Porter's Relay
>> Computer[2]
>> * I am looking at having a limited number registers like the 6502 or 6800
>> * the computer is going to be Harvard architecture based
>>
>> I wondering have any of use done anything like this?
>>
>> [1] http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/
>> [2] http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/
> 
> 
> 
> I've examined and written about (and done some limited implementation of) Simon, which is Harvard architecture.
> 	 http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/simon/index.html
that website looks familiar, thats it, the memory core write up
bookmarked and added to my wget queue :)

> 
> Due to it's limitations I haven't been all that enthused about fully constructing it however.
> It could perhaps be expanded into something more interesting.
> 
> There's another relay computer design and implementation here which looks interesting:
> 	http://www.electronixandmore.com/projects/relaycomputertwo/index.html
> 
I did bookmark and download electronixandmore website

tom

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Fri Feb 13 17:52:06 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 15:52:06 -0800
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-13, at 2:56 PM, Tom Sparks wrote:
> On 14/02/15 08:20, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> On 2015-Feb-13, at 1:40 PM, Tom Sparks wrote:
>> 
>>> I've been bouncing around the idea of building my own relay computer
>>> 
>>> * I have mostly inspired by the TIM project[1] and Harry Porter's Relay
>>> Computer[2]
>>> * I am looking at having a limited number registers like the 6502 or 6800
>>> * the computer is going to be Harvard architecture based
>>> 
>>> I wondering have any of use done anything like this?
>>> 
>>> [1] http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/
>>> [2] http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/
>> 
>> 
>> I've examined and written about (and done some limited implementation of) Simon, which is Harvard architecture.
>> 	 http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/simon/index.html
> that website looks familiar, thats it, the memory core write up
> bookmarked and added to my wget queue :)
> 
>> 
>> Due to it's limitations I haven't been all that enthused about fully constructing it however.
>> It could perhaps be expanded into something more interesting.
>> 
>> There's another relay computer design and implementation here which looks interesting:
>> 	http://www.electronixandmore.com/projects/relaycomputertwo/index.html
>> 
> I did bookmark and download electronixandmore website


Just an opinion, but the Zusie / Z3 recreation ref'd by Pontus looks most interesting, if one wants to do an historical design vs. something novel.
The Zusie site mentions the Z3 recreation in Germany.
With a few recreations of the same machine there's the potential to benefit from community software development.

The Zusie fellow sure was fortunate to obtain a large quantity of good relays at scrap prices.
I've long been interested in building a relay computer but that's one of the stumbling blocks - relays new are so pricey today.
Had in mind a physical implementation much like the Zusie, upright front-access 19" relay rack with an LED per relay to show state (and many blinkenlights).


From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 19:02:13 2015
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 19:02:13 -0600
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>

Tom, any reason for choosing the Harvard architecture?

I'm currently in the middle of a relay computer build so I'll toss in my 2 cents. The most important thing I hit on early is to define the instruction set, work out a number of potential applications/uses on paper (or excel), and step through each instruction to make sure the machine is capable enough. You'll probably discover a number of efficiency improvements you can make to the hardware while doing so, and a few "hardware subroutines" worth adding. You can also baseline how long a program will take to run if you settle on a clock rate, and determine if there's a better way to do it.  

Ultimately, relay computers are SLOW. Don't take 6 cycles to do what could be accomplished with a couple extra relays and a single pulse. Well thought out HW and instructions will pay big dividends when the soldering iron comes out. -Cory



On Feb 13, 2015, at 5:52 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:

> On 2015-Feb-13, at 2:56 PM, Tom Sparks wrote:
>> On 14/02/15 08:20, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>>> On 2015-Feb-13, at 1:40 PM, Tom Sparks wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I've been bouncing around the idea of building my own relay computer
>>>> 
>>>> * I have mostly inspired by the TIM project[1] and Harry Porter's Relay
>>>> Computer[2]
>>>> * I am looking at having a limited number registers like the 6502 or 6800
>>>> * the computer is going to be Harvard architecture based
>>>> 
>>>> I wondering have any of use done anything like this?
>>>> 
>>>> [1] http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/
>>>> [2] http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I've examined and written about (and done some limited implementation of) Simon, which is Harvard architecture.
>>> 	 http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/simon/index.html
>> that website looks familiar, thats it, the memory core write up
>> bookmarked and added to my wget queue :)
>> 
>>> 
>>> Due to it's limitations I haven't been all that enthused about fully constructing it however.
>>> It could perhaps be expanded into something more interesting.
>>> 
>>> There's another relay computer design and implementation here which looks interesting:
>>> 	http://www.electronixandmore.com/projects/relaycomputertwo/index.html
>>> 
>> I did bookmark and download electronixandmore website

From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Fri Feb 13 19:09:49 2015
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 17:09:49 -0800
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <54DE73E7.9050509@update.uu.se>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au> <54DE73E7.9050509@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <54DEA05D.8080907@sbcglobal.net>

On 2/13/2015 2:00 PM, Pontus wrote:
> On 02/13/2015 10:40 PM, Tom Sparks wrote:
>> I've been bouncing around the idea of building my own relay computer
>>
>> * I have mostly inspired by the TIM project[1] and Harry Porter's Relay
>> Computer[2]
>> * I am looking at having a limited number registers like the 6502 or 
>> 6800
>> * the computer is going to be Harvard architecture based
>>
>> I wondering have any of use done anything like this?
>>
>> [1] http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/
>> [2] http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/
>
> Check out Fredriks "Zusie": http://www.nablaman.com/relay/
>
> /

I started one years ago and have been working on it very slowly as a 
background project.
I used small, modern relays as they can be bought in quantity cheaply. I 
paid less than
5 cents each for mine. I've built memory out of the relays and have been 
toying with using
a flip-dot type display board as a visual memory. A kind of mechanical 
graphical display.

Some photos are here:

http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/relay/relay.htm

Bob

-- 
Dentopedalogy is the science of opening your mouth and putting your foot in it.
I've been practising it for years.
-Prince Philip


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Fri Feb 13 19:14:53 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 18:14:53 -0700
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
 <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/13/2015 6:02 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
> Tom, any reason for choosing the Harvard architecture?
>
> I'm currently in the middle of a relay computer build so I'll toss in
> my 2 cents. The most important thing I hit on early is to define the
> instruction set, work out a number of potential applications/uses on
> paper (or excel), and step through each instruction to make sure the
> machine is capable enough. You'll probably discover a number of
> efficiency improvements you can make to the hardware while doing so,
> and a few "hardware subroutines" worth adding. You can also baseline
> how long a program will take to run if you settle on a clock rate,
> and determine if there's a better way to do it.
>
> Ultimately, relay computers are SLOW. Don't take 6 cycles to do what
> could be accomplished with a couple extra relays and a single pulse.
> Well thought out HW and instructions will pay big dividends when the
> soldering iron comes out. -Cory
>
The alu has never relay been a problem with relays, but what about main
storage? Punched tape (paper/film/card) is no longer with us for I/O.
Ben.

From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 19:25:28 2015
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 19:25:28 -0600
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
 <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
 <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <89454CC2-1F77-4130-85C3-508A54292902@gmail.com>

Ben, 

I'm planning on 8-bit paper tape for I/O, but I was in touch with a gentleman from Brazil a few months ago that designed his architecture around 5-bit words. This allowed him to use the Baudot code and make use of teletype equipment that can still be found without too much difficulty. 8-bit ASR-33s are worth their weight in gold these days, but the 5-bit model 32 (or a 28 and tape peripherals) is much more reasonable. -C


On Feb 13, 2015, at 7:14 PM, ben wrote:

> On 2/13/2015 6:02 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
>> Tom, any reason for choosing the Harvard architecture?
>> 
>> I'm currently in the middle of a relay computer build so I'll toss in
>> my 2 cents. The most important thing I hit on early is to define the
>> instruction set, work out a number of potential applications/uses on
>> paper (or excel), and step through each instruction to make sure the
>> machine is capable enough. You'll probably discover a number of
>> efficiency improvements you can make to the hardware while doing so,
>> and a few "hardware subroutines" worth adding. You can also baseline
>> how long a program will take to run if you settle on a clock rate,
>> and determine if there's a better way to do it.
>> 
>> Ultimately, relay computers are SLOW. Don't take 6 cycles to do what
>> could be accomplished with a couple extra relays and a single pulse.
>> Well thought out HW and instructions will pay big dividends when the
>> soldering iron comes out. -Cory
>> 
> The alu has never relay been a problem with relays, but what about main
> storage? Punched tape (paper/film/card) is no longer with us for I/O.
> Ben.


From isking at uw.edu  Fri Feb 13 19:26:06 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 17:26:06 -0800
Subject: Failed ICs and components
In-Reply-To: <50B34ED8-D72D-4CC0-9395-372D1786852A@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <CAKtEYUzqJyfknXR0P55-8aZikdkNZZrzJSQ=1WspOvbG-KBE2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B3FA6@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <CAKtEYUzup8a4WJi8uft0_PMmLyZt5z_acFbZCzZWp+hRocCqpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DD11D6.50905@sydex.com>
 <50B34ED8-D72D-4CC0-9395-372D1786852A@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ02_=NXX2Yn9hGFNdfrGzrp9EV6v36jqW-CyiDHtqEB_BA@mail.gmail.com>

Exactly why I argued for the retention of replaced parts at LCM.  <sigh>

On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:

> On 2015-Feb-12, at 12:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> > On 02/12/2015 11:51 AM, Kyle Owen wrote:
> >
> >> Darn! That sounded like a good collection. Alas, I know I haven't kept
> >> every bad IC either (except that one from the PDP-8/E...not really sure
> why
> >> until now, I guess). But if you do find them, I could certainly use
> them.
> >
> >
> > Just curious--has anyone ever done a life-cycle study on
> plastic-packaged vs. CerDIP packaged SSI TTL?
>
> Well, just a data point, but I've never had to replace an IC in my ca-1970
> HP2116, composed of hundreds of SSI chips, 80-90%of which are CerDIP.
> They're mostly CT?L, with some TTL, however.
> (It's had one quad-pack core driver transistor failure.)
>
> For that age and number of ICs, that's pretty good. Contrast even with
> other HP equipment.
>
>


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.

From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au  Fri Feb 13 20:22:32 2015
From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 02:22:32 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: building my own relay computer
Message-ID: <1146171348.4708840.1423880552245.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

On 14/02/15 09:52, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> On 2015-Feb-13, at 2:56 PM, Tom Sparks wrote:
>> On 14/02/15 08:20, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>>> On 2015-Feb-13, at 1:40 PM, Tom Sparks wrote:
<snipped>
> Just an opinion, but the Zusie / Z3 recreation ref'd by Pontus looks most interesting, if one wants to do an historical design vs. something novel.
my project is a what if?....
"1890 portable telegraph switching computer"

I am limiting myself to 1930's knowledge and ideas because they could
have be discovered early in time, but unpublished/lost/etc

I am welling to use modern versions to reduce the build time

> The Zusie site mentions the Z3 recreation in Germany.
> With a few recreations of the same machine there's the potential to benefit from community software development.
> 
> The Zusie fellow sure was fortunate to obtain a large quantity of good relays at scrap prices.
> I've long been interested in building a relay computer but that's one of the stumbling blocks - relays new are so pricey today.
I noticed that with the relays



> Had in mind a physical implementation much like the Zusie, upright front-access 19" relay rack with an LED per relay to show state (and many blinkenlights).
> 

From captainkirk359 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 20:33:32 2015
From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 21:33:32 -0500
Subject: Looking for RSTS/E and RSX-11 Software
Message-ID: <CAKUYOb0JM_4dkY+CQ=Yr-vAmp7pCxff2-6ZUuy+AaBETOz1amg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

I'm looking for some good demonstration/fun software to run on my demo
RSX-11/M+ and RSTS/E systems.

I don't much mind what the software is so anything that can be
provided I'll probably find useful. In particular I'm looking for some
games. If it's of any consequence, I'm using RSX-11/M+ 4.6 BL87 and
RSTS/E 10.1-L.

Also, does anyone know if there's any other archives that have copies
of the RSTS/E and RSX-11 layered products than the Trailing Edge FTP?
(Particularly I'm interesting in getting DEC C on RSX-11/M+, but if I
recall correctly the tape image on the aforementioned archive is
corrupted. Also I'm looking for the WPS package for RSTS/E.)

Thank you to any who respond!


Regards,
Christian
-- 
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Feb 13 20:59:13 2015
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 18:59:13 -0800
Subject: Looking for RSTS/E and RSX-11 Software
In-Reply-To: <CAKUYOb0JM_4dkY+CQ=Yr-vAmp7pCxff2-6ZUuy+AaBETOz1amg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKUYOb0JM_4dkY+CQ=Yr-vAmp7pCxff2-6ZUuy+AaBETOz1amg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <085DEA06-7A63-42C2-A234-80B33FF603C4@aracnet.com>

On Feb 13, 2015, at 6:33 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove <captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> I'm looking for some good demonstration/fun software to run on my demo
> RSX-11/M+ and RSTS/E systems.
> 
> I don't much mind what the software is so anything that can be
> provided I'll probably find useful. In particular I'm looking for some
> games. If it's of any consequence, I'm using RSX-11/M+ 4.6 BL87 and
> RSTS/E 10.1-L.
> 
> Also, does anyone know if there's any other archives that have copies
> of the RSTS/E and RSX-11 layered products than the Trailing Edge FTP?
> (Particularly I'm interesting in getting DEC C on RSX-11/M+, but if I
> recall correctly the tape image on the aforementioned archive is
> corrupted. Also I'm looking for the WPS package for RSTS/E.)
> 
> Thank you to any who respond!

Sadly that's about all there is.  I'd love to see some more RSTS/E layered products show up (and 10.1A).  Isn't there a copy of Whitesmith C for RSX-11 available?

Zane






From radiotest at juno.com  Fri Feb 13 21:32:19 2015
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 22:32:19 -0500
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20150213222409.03d981a0@juno.com>

At 04:40 PM 2/13/2015, Tom Sparks wrote:

>I've been bouncing around the idea of building my own relay computer

I built a greatly scaled down version of Simon more than 50 years 
ago. See Chapter 3 in:

Edmund Callis Berkeley
Giant Brains, or Machines That Think


Available in DejaVu format at:

https://ia600504.us.archive.org/17/items/GiantBrains/giant_brains.djvu 


From radiotest at juno.com  Fri Feb 13 21:33:52 2015
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 22:33:52 -0500
Subject: building my own relay computer
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20150213223302.03eb8d30@juno.com>

Sorry, this was accidentally sent before it was completed.

At 04:40 PM 2/13/2015, Tom Sparks wrote:

>I've been bouncing around the idea of building my own relay computer

I built a greatly scaled down version of Simon more than 50 years ago. See Chapter 3 in:

Edmund Callis Berkeley
Giant Brains, or Machines That Think
New York: John Wiley & Sons, Inc., 1949; Reprinted New York, Science Editions, Inc., 1961

Available in DejaVu format at:

https://ia600504.us.archive.org/17/items/GiantBrains/giant_brains.djvu 

Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From radiotest at juno.com  Fri Feb 13 21:41:16 2015
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 22:41:16 -0500
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
 <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
 <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20150213223541.03d981a0@juno.com>

At 08:14 PM 2/13/2015, Ben wrote:

The alu has never relay been a problem with relays, but what about main storage? Punched tape (paper/film/card) is no longer with us for I/O.

Fifty years ago I got around that by building my own card reader (very slow) for input and hand-punching Hollerith cards with a hole punch. That was some years before I got access to an IBM card punch in high school. Output was a set of electro-mechanical counters, and they were a real pain to implement.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 22:03:30 2015
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 22:03:30 -0600
Subject: Can anyone ID this Card Reader?
Message-ID: <0E0B7900-79A9-401E-99BE-A5EF3E6B611C@gmail.com>

Gents,

I was curious if anyone on the list recognizes this card reader. EAI is the only marking (see last pic). Interestingly, there's a switch for every single possible punch position. Was this some sort of "boot ROM"? 

http://www.radar58.com/reader/IMG_2894.jpg
http://www.radar58.com/reader/IMG_2895.jpg
http://www.radar58.com/reader/IMG_2896.jpg
http://www.radar58.com/reader/IMG_2897.jpg

Thanks,
Cory

From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au  Fri Feb 13 22:02:08 2015
From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 14:02:08 +1000
Subject: building my own relay computer
Message-ID: <54DEC8C0.5060306@yahoo.com.au>

On 14/02/15 11:02, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
> Tom, any reason for choosing the Harvard architecture?
it may have some Modified Harvard architecture
the computer is NOT Stored-program based, it may have a small (128/256
byte) CPU styled cache


> I'm currently in the middle of a relay computer build so I'll toss in
my 2 cents.
> The most important thing I hit on early is to define the instruction set,
> work out a number of potential applications/uses on paper (or excel),
> and step through each instruction to make sure the machine is capable
enough.
> You'll probably discover a number of efficiency improvements you can
make to the hardware while doing so,
> and a few "hardware subroutines" worth adding.
> You can also baseline how long a program will take to run if you
settle on a clock rate, and determine if there's a better way to do it. 
> Ultimately, relay computers are SLOW. Don't take 6 cycles to do what
could be accomplished with a couple extra relays and a single pulse.
> Well thought out HW and instructions will pay big dividends when the
soldering iron comes out. -Cory
good point, I am prototyping the computer design in software and
software in 6502 assembly



From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 22:18:15 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 23:18:15 -0500
Subject: Looking for RSTS/E and RSX-11 Software
In-Reply-To: <CAKUYOb0JM_4dkY+CQ=Yr-vAmp7pCxff2-6ZUuy+AaBETOz1amg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKUYOb0JM_4dkY+CQ=Yr-vAmp7pCxff2-6ZUuy+AaBETOz1amg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfCyUqvRG92HDhxH=9pdyX1mM8XeZxb_Ta=W5cRAvibRig@mail.gmail.com>

Found ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/rsts/games/README .

But goodness, there used to be zillions of DECUS pdp11 programs around.
Are they all lost?

On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove <
captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I'm looking for some good demonstration/fun software to run on my demo
> RSX-11/M+ and RSTS/E systems.
>
> I don't much mind what the software is so anything that can be
> provided I'll probably find useful. In particular I'm looking for some
> games. If it's of any consequence, I'm using RSX-11/M+ 4.6 BL87 and
> RSTS/E 10.1-L.
>
> Also, does anyone know if there's any other archives that have copies
> of the RSTS/E and RSX-11 layered products than the Trailing Edge FTP?
> (Particularly I'm interesting in getting DEC C on RSX-11/M+, but if I
> recall correctly the tape image on the aforementioned archive is
> corrupted. Also I'm looking for the WPS package for RSTS/E.)
>
> Thank you to any who respond!
>
>
> Regards,
> Christian
> --
> Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
> STCKON08DS0
> Contact information available upon request.
>

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Feb 13 22:31:15 2015
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 20:31:15 -0800
Subject: Looking for RSTS/E and RSX-11 Software
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfCyUqvRG92HDhxH=9pdyX1mM8XeZxb_Ta=W5cRAvibRig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKUYOb0JM_4dkY+CQ=Yr-vAmp7pCxff2-6ZUuy+AaBETOz1amg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfCyUqvRG92HDhxH=9pdyX1mM8XeZxb_Ta=W5cRAvibRig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A3808379-5E61-4219-A8C4-881A0F00ACE1@aracnet.com>


On Feb 13, 2015, at 8:18 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:

> Found ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/rsts/games/README .
> 
> But goodness, there used to be zillions of DECUS pdp11 programs around.
> Are they all lost?

It looks like the sunsite archive has changed to ibiblio.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11

Also don't forget that Johnny Billquist just announced a TCP/IP stack for RSX-11M+.

Zane



From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 22:41:44 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 23:41:44 -0500
Subject: Looking for RSTS/E and RSX-11 Software
In-Reply-To: <A3808379-5E61-4219-A8C4-881A0F00ACE1@aracnet.com>
References: <CAKUYOb0JM_4dkY+CQ=Yr-vAmp7pCxff2-6ZUuy+AaBETOz1amg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfCyUqvRG92HDhxH=9pdyX1mM8XeZxb_Ta=W5cRAvibRig@mail.gmail.com>
 <A3808379-5E61-4219-A8C4-881A0F00ACE1@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfD2ZkrkmobGsbRVvnHzJoY0CEtaJPf6evP5VnOoXzFd_g@mail.gmail.com>

Hah, thanks, Zane.  There's RSX11 PacMan :)
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rsx/decus/rsx82a/312321

On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 11:31 PM, Zane Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:

>
> On Feb 13, 2015, at 8:18 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Found ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/rsts/games/README .
> >
> > But goodness, there used to be zillions of DECUS pdp11 programs around.
> > Are they all lost?
>
> It looks like the sunsite archive has changed to ibiblio.
>
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11
>
> Also don't forget that Johnny Billquist just announced a TCP/IP stack for
> RSX-11M+.
>
> Zane
>
>
>

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 02:05:01 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 08:05:01 -0000
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20150213223541.03d981a0@juno.com>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
 <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
 <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca> <7.0.1.0.2.20150213223541.03d981a0@juno.com>
Message-ID: <00b901d0482c$ef576f30$ce064d90$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dale H.
> Cook
> Sent: 14 February 2015 03:41
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: building my own relay computer
> 
> At 08:14 PM 2/13/2015, Ben wrote:
> 
> The alu has never relay been a problem with relays, but what about main
> storage? Punched tape (paper/film/card) is no longer with us for I/O.
> 

Punched tape is about. Check out the "green keys" list, 5-level stuff comes
up from time to time, generally at low cost. There is some ex-CNC items on
E-Bay at present but for silly prices. Whilst I haven't seen any on E-Bay
there were three Documation readers advertised on the Vintage Computer
forums. 


> Fifty years ago I got around that by building my own card reader (very
slow)
> for input and hand-punching Hollerith cards with a hole punch. That was
> some years before I got access to an IBM card punch in high school. Output
> was a set of electro-mechanical counters, and they were a real pain to
> implement.
> 

Many folks have implemented photo electric tape readers, but these tend to
be clocked off the small feed holes. I guess it wouldn't be too hard to
build a photo electric reader that has a 3-d printed feed wheel that was
driven by a stepper motor. In fact I am pretty sure you could even use a
coil and ratchet arrangement, like this one here:-

http://grabcad.com/library/cam-operated-ratchet-pawl-1

but operated buy a coil and magnet rather than a rotating cam. Some one has
actually made a complete but operated mechanical punch card computer..

http://observationdeck.io9.com/a-3-d-printed-hand-cranked-punch-card-compute
r-1481921919

so I don't think its hard. Getting things 3-D printed isn't hard, in fact
most FabLabs will have one and things can be printed for the cost of
materials. Also Hack Space...

 I think it's the punch that's harder. You would need to harden the punch
pins, and the would need to have a very exact fit. I guess a CNC router
could be used to make these...

Using a hand card punch isn't so slow once you get used to it, but these
also seem expensive...

Dave

> Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
> Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
> http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat Feb 14 02:14:04 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 01:14:04 -0700
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <00b901d0482c$ef576f30$ce064d90$@gmail.com>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
 <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
 <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca> <7.0.1.0.2.20150213223541.03d981a0@juno.com>
 <00b901d0482c$ef576f30$ce064d90$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DF03CC.4040908@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/14/2015 1:05 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dale H.
>> Cook
>> Sent: 14 February 2015 03:41
>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> Subject: Re: building my own relay computer
>>
>> At 08:14 PM 2/13/2015, Ben wrote:
>>
>> The alu has never relay been a problem with relays, but what about main
>> storage? Punched tape (paper/film/card) is no longer with us for I/O.
>>
>
> Punched tape is about. Check out the "green keys" list, 5-level stuff comes
> up from time to time, generally at low cost. There is some ex-CNC items on
> E-Bay at present but for silly prices. Whilst I haven't seen any on E-Bay
> there were three Documation readers advertised on the Vintage Computer
> forums.
>
>
>> Fifty years ago I got around that by building my own card reader (very
> slow)
>> for input and hand-punching Hollerith cards with a hole punch. That was
>> some years before I got access to an IBM card punch in high school. Output
>> was a set of electro-mechanical counters, and they were a real pain to
>> implement.
>>
>
> Many folks have implemented photo electric tape readers, but these tend to
> be clocked off the small feed holes. I guess it wouldn't be too hard to
> build a photo electric reader that has a 3-d printed feed wheel that was
> driven by a stepper motor. In fact I am pretty sure you could even use a
> coil and ratchet arrangement, like this one here:-
>
> http://grabcad.com/library/cam-operated-ratchet-pawl-1
>
> but operated buy a coil and magnet rather than a rotating cam. Some one has
> actually made a complete but operated mechanical punch card computer..
>
> http://observationdeck.io9.com/a-3-d-printed-hand-cranked-punch-card-compute
> r-1481921919
>
> so I don't think its hard. Getting things 3-D printed isn't hard, in fact
> most FabLabs will have one and things can be printed for the cost of
> materials. Also Hack Space...
>
>   I think it's the punch that's harder. You would need to harden the punch
> pins, and the would need to have a very exact fit. I guess a CNC router
> could be used to make these...
>

I think that needs real machine work. Strange what you could do 100 
years ago you can not do today.
Computer controlled stuff is good for may things but not that.
Ben.



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat Feb 14 02:26:45 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 01:26:45 -0700
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <54DF03CC.4040908@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
 <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
 <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca> <7.0.1.0.2.20150213223541.03d981a0@juno.com>
 <00b901d0482c$ef576f30$ce064d90$@gmail.com> <54DF03CC.4040908@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <54DF06C5.1080806@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/14/2015 1:14 AM, ben wrote:
> On 2/14/2015 1:05 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dale H.
>>> Cook
>>> Sent: 14 February 2015 03:41
>>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>>> Subject: Re: building my own relay computer
>>>
>>> At 08:14 PM 2/13/2015, Ben wrote:
>>>
>>> The alu has never relay been a problem with relays, but what about main
>>> storage? Punched tape (paper/film/card) is no longer with us for I/O.
>>>
>>
>> Punched tape is about. Check out the "green keys" list, 5-level stuff
>> comes
>> up from time to time, generally at low cost. There is some ex-CNC
>> items on
>> E-Bay at present but for silly prices. Whilst I haven't seen any on E-Bay
>> there were three Documation readers advertised on the Vintage Computer
>> forums.
>>
>>
>>> Fifty years ago I got around that by building my own card reader (very
>> slow)
>>> for input and hand-punching Hollerith cards with a hole punch. That was
>>> some years before I got access to an IBM card punch in high school.
>>> Output
>>> was a set of electro-mechanical counters, and they were a real pain to
>>> implement.
>>>
>>
>> Many folks have implemented photo electric tape readers, but these
>> tend to
>> be clocked off the small feed holes. I guess it wouldn't be too hard to
>> build a photo electric reader that has a 3-d printed feed wheel that was
>> driven by a stepper motor. In fact I am pretty sure you could even use a
>> coil and ratchet arrangement, like this one here:-
>>
>> http://grabcad.com/library/cam-operated-ratchet-pawl-1
>>
>> but operated buy a coil and magnet rather than a rotating cam. Some
>> one has
>> actually made a complete but operated mechanical punch card computer..
>>
>> http://observationdeck.io9.com/a-3-d-printed-hand-cranked-punch-card-compute
>>
>> r-1481921919
>>
>> so I don't think its hard. Getting things 3-D printed isn't hard, in fact
>> most FabLabs will have one and things can be printed for the cost of
>> materials. Also Hack Space...
>>
>>   I think it's the punch that's harder. You would need to harden the
>> punch
>> pins, and the would need to have a very exact fit. I guess a CNC router
>> could be used to make these...
>>
>
> I think that needs real machine work. Strange what you could do 100
> years ago you can not do today.
> Computer controlled stuff is good for may things but not that.
error: many things
> Ben.
>
>
>
>


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 02:35:38 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 08:35:38 -0000
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <54DF03CC.4040908@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
 <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
 <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca> <7.0.1.0.2.20150213223541.03d981a0@juno.com>
 <00b901d0482c$ef576f30$ce064d90$@gmail.com> <54DF03CC.4040908@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <013b01d04831$35b70a90$a1251fb0$@gmail.com>

> >
> >   I think it's the punch that's harder. You would need to harden the
> > punch pins, and the would need to have a very exact fit. I guess a CNC
> > router could be used to make these...
> >
> 
> I think that needs real machine work. Strange what you could do 100 years
> ago you can not do today.
> Computer controlled stuff is good for may things but not that.
> Ben.
> 

I suspect it is not "real machine work, but more likely honing and lapping.
I see from the CREED-25 High Speed punch maintenance manual that  the punch
pins could need honing:-


SHARPENING Of PUNCHES
====================

4. 1 Remove the punches from the punch block as described in Section 7 of
the Dismantling and Assembling Instructions.
4. 2 Insert the punches,  individually,  into a lapping block (TA.1301,
supplied with the tool kit)  so that the chamfered cutting edges of the
punches are parallel with
the chamfered side of the block.

So perhaps it is not as hard to make these things in say a model engineering
workshop.

Dave


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 02:54:50 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 08:54:50 -0000
Subject: Can anyone ID this Card Reader?
In-Reply-To: <0E0B7900-79A9-401E-99BE-A5EF3E6B611C@gmail.com>
References: <0E0B7900-79A9-401E-99BE-A5EF3E6B611C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014b01d04833$e50b4f40$af21edc0$@gmail.com>

Looks like an EAI special. Something to do with setting up patching on an
Analogue Computer?

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cory
> Heisterkamp
> Sent: 14 February 2015 04:04
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Can anyone ID this Card Reader?
> 
> Gents,
> 
> I was curious if anyone on the list recognizes this card reader. EAI is
the only
> marking (see last pic). Interestingly, there's a switch for every single
possible
> punch position. Was this some sort of "boot ROM"?
> 
> http://www.radar58.com/reader/IMG_2894.jpg
> http://www.radar58.com/reader/IMG_2895.jpg
> http://www.radar58.com/reader/IMG_2896.jpg
> http://www.radar58.com/reader/IMG_2897.jpg
> 
> Thanks,
> Cory


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 02:55:11 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 08:55:11 -0000
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <54DF06C5.1080806@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
 <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
 <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca> <7.0.1.0.2.20150213223541.03d981a0@juno.com>
 <00b901d0482c$ef576f30$ce064d90$@gmail.com> <54DF03CC.4040908@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <54DF06C5.1080806@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <014c01d04833$f1759010$d460b030$@gmail.com>

http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?45888-FS-Documation-M
1000-Card-Readers

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben
> Sent: 14 February 2015 08:27
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: building my own relay computer
> 
> On 2/14/2015 1:14 AM, ben wrote:
> > On 2/14/2015 1:05 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dale
> H.
> >>> Cook
> >>> Sent: 14 February 2015 03:41
> >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> >>> Subject: Re: building my own relay computer
> >>>
> >>> At 08:14 PM 2/13/2015, Ben wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The alu has never relay been a problem with relays, but what about
> >>> main storage? Punched tape (paper/film/card) is no longer with us for
> I/O.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Punched tape is about. Check out the "green keys" list, 5-level stuff
> >> comes up from time to time, generally at low cost. There is some
> >> ex-CNC items on E-Bay at present but for silly prices. Whilst I
> >> haven't seen any on E-Bay there were three Documation readers
> >> advertised on the Vintage Computer forums.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Fifty years ago I got around that by building my own card reader
> >>> (very
> >> slow)
> >>> for input and hand-punching Hollerith cards with a hole punch. That
> >>> was some years before I got access to an IBM card punch in high
school.
> >>> Output
> >>> was a set of electro-mechanical counters, and they were a real pain
> >>> to implement.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Many folks have implemented photo electric tape readers, but these
> >> tend to be clocked off the small feed holes. I guess it wouldn't be
> >> too hard to build a photo electric reader that has a 3-d printed feed
> >> wheel that was driven by a stepper motor. In fact I am pretty sure
> >> you could even use a coil and ratchet arrangement, like this one
> >> here:-
> >>
> >> http://grabcad.com/library/cam-operated-ratchet-pawl-1
> >>
> >> but operated buy a coil and magnet rather than a rotating cam. Some
> >> one has actually made a complete but operated mechanical punch card
> >> computer..
> >>
> >> http://observationdeck.io9.com/a-3-d-printed-hand-cranked-punch-
> card-
> >> compute
> >>
> >> r-1481921919
> >>
> >> so I don't think its hard. Getting things 3-D printed isn't hard, in
> >> fact most FabLabs will have one and things can be printed for the
> >> cost of materials. Also Hack Space...
> >>
> >>   I think it's the punch that's harder. You would need to harden the
> >> punch pins, and the would need to have a very exact fit. I guess a
> >> CNC router could be used to make these...
> >>
> >
> > I think that needs real machine work. Strange what you could do 100
> > years ago you can not do today.
> > Computer controlled stuff is good for may things but not that.
> error: many things
> > Ben.
> >
> >
> >
> >



From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 18:11:48 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 18:11:48 -0600
Subject: Any PDP8 for sale..?
In-Reply-To: <CAC20j8TZM4WLnL5pKY+OFZn2-4dh2tsg3hgoJ=GiwAayv_7tBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2064907592.2699617.1423583326241.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACwhfuNiC_L+eEnKQ8Oz_jt78p8heRWJrCN=LyqabTNcZHVGfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20j8TZM4WLnL5pKY+OFZn2-4dh2tsg3hgoJ=GiwAayv_7tBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOCdhHzc=OLtS5iN=75rQj9+Wy9ntrHg86jgzf1iJmnSA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Marc,

I wish I had a dozen. That's one of the few 8 options I don't have.

Paul

On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Marc Howard <cramcram at gmail.com> wrote:

> Gee, I don't suppose you have an FPP8A board set that you''d like to
> sell????
>
> Marc
>
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Martin,
> >
> > I have extra As, Es, Fs, and Ms, with most of the options, but don't have
> > my test beds set up yet.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Martin Meiner <martin at meiner.ch> wrote:
> >
> > > Being bitten by "vintage computer restoring" bug, I am long time
> looking
> > > for a reasonable condition PDP8, preferably a PDP8/L.
> > > Is there such a machine out there looking for a new home or can someone
> > > point me to a possible selling-place other than eBay? EBay has hardly
> > any,
> > > and just a few weeks ago I unfortunately missed one.
> > >
> > > Any help or hint is highly appreciated...
> > >
> >
>

From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 02:04:28 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 00:04:28 -0800
Subject: Failed ICs and components
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1423850400.30976.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1423850400.30976.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <C2B52A26F95346A483C0C28E82E5DCCA@workshop>

Mattis Lind from this forum sent me some failed National Semiconductor 74xx
series, plastic encapsulated. These were from an HP 98xx series calculator I
believe. He noticed than when they failed they failed open. I failed myself
to have the local National Semi people interested in looking at them, and I
just did some XRays to find out if something obvious had happened to the
wire bonds. Nothing we could see, but we didn't take enough close ups. I
want to take a look again, and if I don't find anything could send them on
to you if Mattis is OK with it.
Marc

> Darn! That sounded like a good collection. Alas, I know I haven't kept
> every bad IC either (except that one from the PDP-8/E...not really sure
why
> until now, I guess). But if you do find them, I could certainly use them.








From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Feb 14 03:23:02 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 10:23:02 +0100
Subject: Looking for RSTS/E and RSX-11 Software
In-Reply-To: <CAKUYOb0JM_4dkY+CQ=Yr-vAmp7pCxff2-6ZUuy+AaBETOz1amg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKUYOb0JM_4dkY+CQ=Yr-vAmp7pCxff2-6ZUuy+AaBETOz1amg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DF13F6.7090802@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-14 03:33, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I'm looking for some good demonstration/fun software to run on my demo
> RSX-11/M+ and RSTS/E systems.
>
> I don't much mind what the software is so anything that can be
> provided I'll probably find useful. In particular I'm looking for some
> games. If it's of any consequence, I'm using RSX-11/M+ 4.6 BL87 and
> RSTS/E 10.1-L.
>
> Also, does anyone know if there's any other archives that have copies
> of the RSTS/E and RSX-11 layered products than the Trailing Edge FTP?
> (Particularly I'm interesting in getting DEC C on RSX-11/M+, but if I
> recall correctly the tape image on the aforementioned archive is
> corrupted. Also I'm looking for the WPS package for RSTS/E.)
>
> Thank you to any who respond!

There are plenty of games around.
I wrote a Z-machine implementation many years ago. ZEMU. You can find it 
on ftp://ftp.update.uu.se//pub/pdp11. Then you have lots of games for 
that to download. It definitely works on RSX and RT-11, and it might 
work on RSTS/E too. Otherwise I gladly take patches. :-)

There is plenty of games and other programs from DECUS. Check out more 
parts of the Update ftp site.

A bunch of tapes on trailing-edge are corrupted, sadly enough. The one 
that upsets me the most is the BASIC+2 V2.7 tape for RSX. If anyone have 
a clue of somewhere else to find one, I'd be most interested. Much else 
have been preserved, but I'm hesitant to make anything available at this 
time, as we still have the question about the legality of it all.
If someone have a good connection at HP to help solve *that* issue, it 
would be even better.

People who are interested in games for RSX might also want to check out 
MIM::SYS$GAMES: (if you are on HECnet). If you have an RSX system with 
TCP/IP, you might also try ftp://madame.update.uu.se/ with the username 
"games".

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Feb 14 03:36:41 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 10:36:41 +0100
Subject: Looking for RSTS/E and RSX-11 Software
In-Reply-To: <54DF13F6.7090802@update.uu.se>
References: <CAKUYOb0JM_4dkY+CQ=Yr-vAmp7pCxff2-6ZUuy+AaBETOz1amg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DF13F6.7090802@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <54DF1729.5040800@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-14 10:23, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-02-14 03:33, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I'm looking for some good demonstration/fun software to run on my demo
>> RSX-11/M+ and RSTS/E systems.
>>
>> I don't much mind what the software is so anything that can be
>> provided I'll probably find useful. In particular I'm looking for some
>> games. If it's of any consequence, I'm using RSX-11/M+ 4.6 BL87 and
>> RSTS/E 10.1-L.
>>
>> Also, does anyone know if there's any other archives that have copies
>> of the RSTS/E and RSX-11 layered products than the Trailing Edge FTP?
>> (Particularly I'm interesting in getting DEC C on RSX-11/M+, but if I
>> recall correctly the tape image on the aforementioned archive is
>> corrupted. Also I'm looking for the WPS package for RSTS/E.)
>>
>> Thank you to any who respond!
>
> There are plenty of games around.
> I wrote a Z-machine implementation many years ago. ZEMU. You can find it
> on ftp://ftp.update.uu.se//pub/pdp11. Then you have lots of games for
> that to download. It definitely works on RSX and RT-11, and it might
> work on RSTS/E too. Otherwise I gladly take patches. :-)
>
> There is plenty of games and other programs from DECUS. Check out more
> parts of the Update ftp site.
>
> A bunch of tapes on trailing-edge are corrupted, sadly enough. The one
> that upsets me the most is the BASIC+2 V2.7 tape for RSX. If anyone have
> a clue of somewhere else to find one, I'd be most interested. Much else
> have been preserved, but I'm hesitant to make anything available at this
> time, as we still have the question about the legality of it all.
> If someone have a good connection at HP to help solve *that* issue, it
> would be even better.
>
> People who are interested in games for RSX might also want to check out
> MIM::SYS$GAMES: (if you are on HECnet). If you have an RSX system with
> TCP/IP, you might also try ftp://madame.update.uu.se/ with the username
> "games".

By the way, other noteworthy RSX games: MTREK, available from DECUS, is 
a multiuser StarTrek game.

I also started writing on a clone of CONQUEST. I played a version on VMS 
many years ago, and a few years ago I decided to write a clone for RSX. 
I came as far as getting spaceships flying, the planet physics working, 
all screen handling done and the game daemon running, and you can 
communicate between users and so on. But none of the action is there. So 
you can't really kill each other, or take over planets yet. Development 
is suspended until I have some time and inspiration. I have too many 
projects (as usual). But for people who log in to MIM, they can check it 
out by typing CNQ.
It's pretty much all written in C, and if someone wants a copy, just let 
me know.

I have a version of DUNGEON, which is newer than anything from DECUS for 
RSX as well.

And from DECUS, you also have some languages and tools, but that hardly 
looks impressive if you want to demo the system. For a quickie, few 
things beats RMD though. :-)

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Sat Feb 14 04:23:41 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 02:23:41 -0800
Subject: Not news to anyone on this list but...
Message-ID: <008501d04840$4f9dc1b0$eed94510$@net>

Good to know that at least some people at these big "tech" companies are
thinking about something other than their bottom line...

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31450389

-Ali



From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Feb 14 03:26:17 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 10:26:17 +0100
Subject: Any PDP8 for sale..?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuOCdhHzc=OLtS5iN=75rQj9+Wy9ntrHg86jgzf1iJmnSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2064907592.2699617.1423583326241.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACwhfuNiC_L+eEnKQ8Oz_jt78p8heRWJrCN=LyqabTNcZHVGfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20j8TZM4WLnL5pKY+OFZn2-4dh2tsg3hgoJ=GiwAayv_7tBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuOCdhHzc=OLtS5iN=75rQj9+Wy9ntrHg86jgzf1iJmnSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DF14B9.8040104@update.uu.se>

What about a KL8A, or KT8A? :-)

	Johnny

On 2015-02-14 01:11, Paul Anderson wrote:
> Hi Marc,
>
> I wish I had a dozen. That's one of the few 8 options I don't have.
>
> Paul
>
> On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Marc Howard <cramcram at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Gee, I don't suppose you have an FPP8A board set that you''d like to
>> sell????
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Martin,
>>>
>>> I have extra As, Es, Fs, and Ms, with most of the options, but don't have
>>> my test beds set up yet.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Martin Meiner <martin at meiner.ch> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Being bitten by "vintage computer restoring" bug, I am long time
>> looking
>>>> for a reasonable condition PDP8, preferably a PDP8/L.
>>>> Is there such a machine out there looking for a new home or can someone
>>>> point me to a possible selling-place other than eBay? EBay has hardly
>>> any,
>>>> and just a few weeks ago I unfortunately missed one.
>>>>
>>>> Any help or hint is highly appreciated...
>>>>
>>>
>>


-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 03:54:05 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 03:54:05 -0600
Subject: Any PDP8 for sale..?
In-Reply-To: <54DF14B9.8040104@update.uu.se>
References: <2064907592.2699617.1423583326241.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACwhfuNiC_L+eEnKQ8Oz_jt78p8heRWJrCN=LyqabTNcZHVGfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20j8TZM4WLnL5pKY+OFZn2-4dh2tsg3hgoJ=GiwAayv_7tBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuOCdhHzc=OLtS5iN=75rQj9+Wy9ntrHg86jgzf1iJmnSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DF14B9.8040104@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOvF-=wArtf9DY7WbVBKGpfBqgQ2QTnaU8b78aYA9xT-A@mail.gmail.com>

Do you have the board numbers handy?

On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 3:26 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

> What about a KL8A, or KT8A? :-)
>
>         Johnny
>
>
> On 2015-02-14 01:11, Paul Anderson wrote:
>
>> Hi Marc,
>>
>> I wish I had a dozen. That's one of the few 8 options I don't have.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Marc Howard <cramcram at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Gee, I don't suppose you have an FPP8A board set that you''d like to
>>> sell????
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hi Martin,
>>>>
>>>> I have extra As, Es, Fs, and Ms, with most of the options, but don't
>>>> have
>>>> my test beds set up yet.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Martin Meiner <martin at meiner.ch>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Being bitten by "vintage computer restoring" bug, I am long time
>>>>>
>>>> looking
>>>
>>>> for a reasonable condition PDP8, preferably a PDP8/L.
>>>>> Is there such a machine out there looking for a new home or can someone
>>>>> point me to a possible selling-place other than eBay? EBay has hardly
>>>>>
>>>> any,
>>>>
>>>>> and just a few weeks ago I unfortunately missed one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any help or hint is highly appreciated...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>

From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Sat Feb 14 09:37:58 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 15:37:58 +0000
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
 <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
 <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <20150214153758.GA15469@mooli.org.uk>

On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 06:14:53PM -0700, ben wrote:
[...]
> The alu has never relay been a problem with relays, but what about main
> storage? Punched tape (paper/film/card) is no longer with us for I/O.

How about audio tones, as was popular in the eighties?

That is the *eighteen*-eighties! The "harmonic telegraph" was a new development
in that decade. The principle was that it multiplexed different Morse streams
onto a single audio channel by using a different tone for each, and the
demultiplexing at the far end was done using a tuning forks which resonated at
the appropriate frequencies to close a circuit. (At this point it was
immediately realised that the sound source could be a human voice rather than
Morse keys, rendering the telegraph instantly obsolete.)

However, relay computers are more a 1940s technology, so one has the benefit of
valves in which one could implement a notch fiter and/or PLL to demodulate the
audio. Which period would you like to be appropriate to? :)

The other side of this is actually recording and replaying the audio. For
1880s, you're looking at wax cylinders, gramophones and whatnot, but we'd
pretty much figured out recording audio on magnetic tape by the 1940s. Compact
cassettes are from 1963, but I figure that if Zusie can use blue LEDs (1993,
and still expensive into the 2000s!) an old 1980s tape deck is fair game.


From jfoust at threedee.com  Sat Feb 14 09:41:09 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 09:41:09 -0600
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <54D3FCD0.30102@sydex.com>
References: <20150205005652.CE74A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCGE78OC9smuBbxeA27abOqgpqF-modvpGJ9QvmSaP7zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54D2FD29.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <54D3020C.8080406@sydex.com>
 <201502051610.LAA17972@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051501350.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D3E196.7020002@sydex.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502051547470.7902@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <54D3FCD0.30102@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.28.1423929024.1134.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 05:29 PM 2/5/2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>I will give the T8 lamps this--they use less power and last longer than the T12s.  About the only reason that I've had to change them is when the light output has fallen off noticeably.  But then, you'd replace an LED fixture for the same reason--assuming that it lasted that long.

The Chinese are making LED replacements in T8 tube form.  Search eBay
for "T8 led light".  They're down to about $10 each if you buy 
two dozen.  You disconnect the old ballast completely, and just
reconnect the mains to the existing wires for the ends in your fixture.
They consume about 18 watts and have claimed life expectancies 
in the 30,000 to 50,000 hour range.

- John


From js at cimmeri.com  Sat Feb 14 12:14:01 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 13:14:01 -0500
Subject: Looking for RSTS/E and RSX-11 Software
In-Reply-To: <54DF1729.5040800@update.uu.se>
References: <CAKUYOb0JM_4dkY+CQ=Yr-vAmp7pCxff2-6ZUuy+AaBETOz1amg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DF13F6.7090802@update.uu.se> <54DF1729.5040800@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <54DF9069.2020204@cimmeri.com>



On 2/14/2015 4:36 AM, Johnny Billquist 
wrote:
>> There are plenty of games around.
>> I wrote a Z-machine implementation 
>> many years ago. ZEMU. You can find it
>> on ftp://ftp.update.uu.se//pub/pdp11. 
>> Then you have lots of games for
>> that to download. It definitely works 
>> on RSX and RT-11, and it might
>> work on RSTS/E too. Otherwise I 
>> gladly take patches. :-)
>>
>> ...
>
>
> ...
>
> And from DECUS, you also have some 
> languages and tools, but that hardly 
> looks impressive if you want to demo 
> the system. For a quickie, few things 
> beats RMD though. :-)
>
>     Johnny
>


Johnny, what is a ZEMU?    And what is 
an RMD?

Thank you-
-J.

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Feb 14 13:16:25 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 20:16:25 +0100
Subject: Looking for RSTS/E and RSX-11 Software
In-Reply-To: <54DF9069.2020204@cimmeri.com>
References: <CAKUYOb0JM_4dkY+CQ=Yr-vAmp7pCxff2-6ZUuy+AaBETOz1amg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DF13F6.7090802@update.uu.se> <54DF1729.5040800@update.uu.se>
 <54DF9069.2020204@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <54DF9F09.3060708@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-14 19:14, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
>
>
> On 2/14/2015 4:36 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>> There are plenty of games around.
>>> I wrote a Z-machine implementation many years ago. ZEMU. You can find it
>>> on ftp://ftp.update.uu.se//pub/pdp11. Then you have lots of games for
>>> that to download. It definitely works on RSX and RT-11, and it might
>>> work on RSTS/E too. Otherwise I gladly take patches. :-)
>>>
>>> ...
>>
>>
>> ...
>>
>> And from DECUS, you also have some languages and tools, but that
>> hardly looks impressive if you want to demo the system. For a quickie,
>> few things beats RMD though. :-)
>>
>>     Johnny
>>
>
>
> Johnny, what is a ZEMU?    And what is an RMD?

ZEMU is the Z-machine emulator/interpreter/whatever that I wrote for 
PDP-11s. The Z-machine is an abstract machine designed for running on 
various platforms and was developed by Infocom for their interactive 
fiction games. Think ZORK, and so on, and you hopefully knows what that 
is. With ZEMU, you can run pretty much all Infocom games on PDP-11 
systems. I wrote it for RSX, but with portability in mind. Megan Gentry 
did the RT-11 port. It should be pretty easy to get running under RSTS/E 
as well, if it don't already work there. (It do require MACRO-11 
knowledge however.)

RMD is not an "an", it's a program to display the status of a running 
RSX system. Sortof graphic, and very interactive. If you have your RSX 
system up and running, just try typing "RMD", and watch. Check "H" for 
HELP. ^Z will exit the program. It's one of those tools, once you've 
seen it, you will continually be asking yourself why it isn't available 
on any other OS.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From shumaker at att.net  Sat Feb 14 14:32:43 2015
From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 12:32:43 -0800
Subject: Enormous Early Books/Docs/Software Collection available for the asking
 -  FFS
In-Reply-To: <20150210103913.GA24220@Update.UU.SE>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <7aa63e$enlfv8@fipsb03.cogeco.net> <20150210103913.GA24220@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <54DFB0EB.1030400@att.net>

Finally, after 16 months of effort, Barry Dobyns' collection of early 
manuals, books and software is fully cataloged and available on a FREE 
for SHIPPING basis to the classic list group.  Barry is a reader here 
and you are welcome to query him directly on how this all came to be but 
rest assured that this offering is under his direction and with his 
approval!  Al Kossow has also been involved from the beginning and  has 
reviewed and selected the materials he wanted for CHM.

There are over 4000 individual items described in an Excel spreadsheet 
organized in two worksheets, one is generic and the second is 
exclusively media without supporting documentation.  To support the 
...eclectic tastes of this group, I've also posted  the collection 
catalog as PDF files and as tab delimited text files.  If someone wants 
it in a different format, let me know.  The files are located at 
www.classiccmp.org  (thanks Jay!)  and the link is posted below.

The descriptions are fairly detailed, with an eye towards their 
usability and/or collectible value.  In particular, media descriptions 
contain ALL writing present on the labels.  None of the media was 
mounted for a content review or a readability test so the label is all I 
know.

Anything not finding a new home will probably go to the recycler at the 
end of this.

OK.  the conditions to make this work without flooding the list:

1.  This has been a major effort to help Barry and this stuff is NOT 
being offered for sale  but I do expect reimbursement for shipping from 
95006. (If your conscious bothers you and you just have to pay for 
something, I'll donate anything I get to a local cat rescue outfit.)
2.  Tell me what you want using the "seq #" that is the leftmost column 
for each item.  That will stay static if I update the list of items.
3.  Send me an email OFFLIST using   sjshumaker at att.net.   Note that is 
different than what I'm using here.  If I get more than one request for 
an item, it simply goes to the first person to ask based on email time 
stamp.
4.  I will send you a shipping cost.   I can do Paypal at 
sjshumaker at att.net,   USPS MO,   or whatever..   ask me in your email.

5.  I have a day job!  I have no idea what sort of response this will 
generate so be patient.  I will acknowledge ALL emails.

6.  FWIW, If anyone would like to come take the entire thing, it is 100+ 
boxes of material located in Boulder Creek, CA.  Bring a box truck!


Here is the link:

http://www.classiccmp.org/sjsclassicdocs


Steve






From shumaker at att.net  Sat Feb 14 14:37:28 2015
From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 12:37:28 -0800
Subject: Enormous Early Books/Docs/Software Collection available for the
 asking -  FFS
In-Reply-To: <54DFB0EB.1030400@att.net>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <7aa63e$enlfv8@fipsb03.cogeco.net> <20150210103913.GA24220@Update.UU.SE>
 <54DFB0EB.1030400@att.net>
Message-ID: <54DFB208.8000502@att.net>


oops.. it's your conscience I was talking about... oh well   lol


stve


From j at ckrubin.us  Sat Feb 14 15:21:41 2015
From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 21:21:41 +0000
Subject: Looking for DEC FlipChips - M100, M102, M633
Message-ID: <DM2PR0501MB16648B1BB834C025F9C8076AD2200@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>

I've recently acquired a TC08 controller to interface a set of TU55 drives to my PDP-8/I. My 8/I has the earlier Negibus I/O configuration and the simplest (at least in terms of number of cards required) solution for interfacing is to convert the Posibus TC08 to a Negibus TC08N. This requires swapping out a few positive logic interface cards for the corresponding negative logic equivalents. I'm looking for the following cards and quantities:

M100 - qty 3
M102 - qty 2
M633 - qty 4

Please let me know off-list if you have any of these items available for sale or swap. 

If you do have an M102 but don't want to get rid of it, I'd be very happy just to have clear photos of the card, front and back. Vince Slyngstad has already prepared Eagle layouts of the M100 and M633 but lacks adequate info to recreate the M102.

Thanks!
Jack

From jason at textfiles.com  Sat Feb 14 16:01:15 2015
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 17:01:15 -0500
Subject: Enormous Early Books/Docs/Software Collection available for the
 asking - FFS
In-Reply-To: <54DFB0EB.1030400@att.net>
References: <54D9955A.4090909@pico-systems.com>
 <7aa63e$enlfv8@fipsb03.cogeco.net>
 <20150210103913.GA24220@Update.UU.SE> <54DFB0EB.1030400@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd1nQ5XuD3U-xY5-YO83H1B9QXY0m=DEKD1xFfM_8Yyh8A@mail.gmail.com>

I am happy to take all of it or any part people don't want. They'll be
stored at the Internet Archive and ultimately digitized.
On Feb 14, 2015 3:33 PM, "steve shumaker" <shumaker at att.net> wrote:

> Finally, after 16 months of effort, Barry Dobyns' collection of early
> manuals, books and software is fully cataloged and available on a FREE for
> SHIPPING basis to the classic list group.  Barry is a reader here and you
> are welcome to query him directly on how this all came to be but rest
> assured that this offering is under his direction and with his approval!
> Al Kossow has also been involved from the beginning and  has reviewed and
> selected the materials he wanted for CHM.
>
> There are over 4000 individual items described in an Excel spreadsheet
> organized in two worksheets, one is generic and the second is exclusively
> media without supporting documentation.  To support the ...eclectic tastes
> of this group, I've also posted  the collection catalog as PDF files and as
> tab delimited text files.  If someone wants it in a different format, let
> me know.  The files are located at www.classiccmp.org  (thanks Jay!)  and
> the link is posted below.
>
> The descriptions are fairly detailed, with an eye towards their usability
> and/or collectible value.  In particular, media descriptions contain ALL
> writing present on the labels.  None of the media was mounted for a content
> review or a readability test so the label is all I know.
>
> Anything not finding a new home will probably go to the recycler at the
> end of this.
>
> OK.  the conditions to make this work without flooding the list:
>
> 1.  This has been a major effort to help Barry and this stuff is NOT being
> offered for sale  but I do expect reimbursement for shipping from 95006.
> (If your conscious bothers you and you just have to pay for something, I'll
> donate anything I get to a local cat rescue outfit.)
> 2.  Tell me what you want using the "seq #" that is the leftmost column
> for each item.  That will stay static if I update the list of items.
> 3.  Send me an email OFFLIST using   sjshumaker at att.net.   Note that is
> different than what I'm using here.  If I get more than one request for an
> item, it simply goes to the first person to ask based on email time stamp.
> 4.  I will send you a shipping cost.   I can do Paypal at
> sjshumaker at att.net,   USPS MO,   or whatever..   ask me in your email.
>
> 5.  I have a day job!  I have no idea what sort of response this will
> generate so be patient.  I will acknowledge ALL emails.
>
> 6.  FWIW, If anyone would like to come take the entire thing, it is 100+
> boxes of material located in Boulder Creek, CA.  Bring a box truck!
>
>
> Here is the link:
>
> http://www.classiccmp.org/sjsclassicdocs
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>

From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au  Sat Feb 14 17:38:31 2015
From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 09:38:31 +1000
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <20150214153758.GA15469@mooli.org.uk>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
 <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
 <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20150214153758.GA15469@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <54DFDC77.10208@yahoo.com.au>

On 15/02/15 01:37, Peter Corlett wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 06:14:53PM -0700, ben wrote:
> [...]
>> The alu has never relay been a problem with relays, but what about main
>> storage? Punched tape (paper/film/card) is no longer with us for I/O.
> 
> How about audio tones, as was popular in the eighties?
> 
> That is the *eighteen*-eighties! The "harmonic telegraph" was a new development
> in that decade. The principle was that it multiplexed different Morse streams
> onto a single audio channel by using a different tone for each, and the
> demultiplexing at the far end was done using a tuning forks which resonated at
> the appropriate frequencies to close a circuit. (At this point it was
> immediately realised that the sound source could be a human voice rather than
> Morse keys, rendering the telegraph instantly obsolete.)
also magnetic wire recording (1898) witch lead to magnetic tape
recording in 1940

in my "What If" world the postal office network owned the telegraph network

letters were delivered on punched card/tape to the post offices
places that had mail/post rooms were asked to rent a mail computer
THIS is that computer that I am concepting

> 
> However, relay computers are more a 1940s technology, so one has the benefit of
> valves in which one could implement a notch fiter and/or PLL to demodulate the
> audio. Which period would you like to be appropriate to? :)

> 
> The other side of this is actually recording and replaying the audio. For
> 1880s, you're looking at wax cylinders, gramophones and whatnot, but we'd
> pretty much figured out recording audio on magnetic tape by the 1940s. Compact
> cassettes are from 1963, but I figure that if Zusie can use blue LEDs (1993,
> and still expensive into the 2000s!) an old 1980s tape deck is fair game.
> 
that why I asked about Magnetic tape filesystem and found phi-deck
I thought about record sized floppy disk :)
as I stepping stone I looked a normal floppy disk, but the are track
based not spiral based, CDs would add to much extra hardware, so
Magnetic tapes were the simpler option

tom

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat Feb 14 18:07:55 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 17:07:55 -0700
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <54DFDC77.10208@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
 <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
 <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20150214153758.GA15469@mooli.org.uk>
 <54DFDC77.10208@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <54DFE35B.1000706@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/14/2015 4:38 PM, Tom Sparks wrote:

> in my "What If" world the postal office network owned the telegraph network
>

I don't know about that.

"The Indians Cut the Telegraph line. Lets round up some men and ride to 
catch them..."  sounds bit better than
"The Indians cut the postal line again, Hang that wanted poster up again."
Ben.



From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Sat Feb 14 18:30:44 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 00:30:44 +0000
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <54DFDC77.10208@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
 <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
 <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20150214153758.GA15469@mooli.org.uk> <54DFDC77.10208@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <20150215003044.GA22072@mooli.org.uk>

On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 09:38:31AM +1000, Tom Sparks wrote:
[...]
> in my "What If" world the postal office network owned the telegraph network

In the UK, that was indeed the case. In a fine bit of legal wrangling, it was
argued that the GPO's monopoly on the postal service extended to the other
peer-to-peer communications systems such as the telegraph and telephone as they
were invented.

Had the GPO not had the telephone service rebranded BT and privatised in the
1980s, it would no doubt be claiming monopoly rights over Internet access as
well. As it is, BT still pretty much control the market.

[...]
> that why I asked about Magnetic tape filesystem and found phi-deck I thought
> about record sized floppy disk :)

There were quite a few bizarre tape-loop systems for early microcomputers that
were claimed to be random-access and cheaper than floppy disks, but were
generally extremely unreliable, and I doubt they really worked out cheaper for
anything but trivial storage needs due to there being only one manufacturer of
the bespoke media.

Sinclair's "microdrive" was perhaps the canonical unreliable storage. It takes
a lot of effort to be more unreliable than a C90 cassette tape, but Sir Clive
was well up to the challenge thanks to his ability to penny-pinch to the limit
and then cut some more corners just to make sure.


From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au  Sat Feb 14 19:06:04 2015
From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 11:06:04 +1000
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <20150215003044.GA22072@mooli.org.uk>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
 <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
 <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20150214153758.GA15469@mooli.org.uk>
 <54DFDC77.10208@yahoo.com.au> <20150215003044.GA22072@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <54DFF0FC.1010109@yahoo.com.au>

On 15/02/15 10:30, Peter Corlett wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 09:38:31AM +1000, Tom Sparks wrote:
> [...]
>> in my "What If" world the postal office network owned the telegraph network
> 
> In the UK, that was indeed the case. In a fine bit of legal wrangling, it was
> argued that the GPO's monopoly on the postal service extended to the other
> peer-to-peer communications systems such as the telegraph and telephone as they
> were invented.
> 
> Had the GPO not had the telephone service rebranded BT and privatised in the
> 1980s, it would no doubt be claiming monopoly rights over Internet access as
> well. As it is, BT still pretty much control the market.
> 
> [...]
>> that why I asked about Magnetic tape filesystem and found phi-deck I thought
>> about record sized floppy disk :)
> 
> There were quite a few bizarre tape-loop systems for early microcomputers that
> were claimed to be random-access and cheaper than floppy disks, but were
> generally extremely unreliable, and I doubt they really worked out cheaper for
> anything but trivial storage needs due to there being only one manufacturer of
> the bespoke media.
> 
> Sinclair's "microdrive" was perhaps the canonical unreliable storage. It takes
> a lot of effort to be more unreliable than a C90 cassette tape, but Sir Clive
> was well up to the challenge thanks to his ability to penny-pinch to the limit
> and then cut some more corners just to make sure.
> 
I remember read about about a spiral tracking DRM method used on floppy
disk in late 1980's
there was also Triton QD[1] witch have spiral track
[1] http://www.worldofspectrum.org/hardware/feat20.html

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Feb 14 19:15:41 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 17:15:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <54DFF0FC.1010109@yahoo.com.au>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
 <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
 <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20150214153758.GA15469@mooli.org.uk> <54DFDC77.10208@yahoo.com.au>
 <20150215003044.GA22072@mooli.org.uk> <54DFF0FC.1010109@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <20150214171516.W78014@shell.lmi.net>

ISTR a 2.9" floppy with a single spiral track



From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sat Feb 14 20:18:51 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 18:18:51 -0800
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <20150215003044.GA22072@mooli.org.uk>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
 <A7E36E9A-117D-4AA3-B562-A3C79E40A5A2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54DE810C.6050702@yahoo.com.au>
 <8028DFB8-3B76-45B7-885C-F49861FD4A94@cs.ubc.ca>
 <6548A3A9-ED52-406B-89A8-40605A6D84A9@gmail.com>
 <54DEA18D.5070502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20150214153758.GA15469@mooli.org.uk>
 <54DFDC77.10208@yahoo.com.au> <20150215003044.GA22072@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <333582B5-699C-4B81-8356-AA8C6D111442@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-14, at 4:30 PM, Peter Corlett wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 09:38:31AM +1000, Tom Sparks wrote:
> [...]
>> in my "What If" world the postal office network owned the telegraph network
> 
> In the UK, that was indeed the case. In a fine bit of legal wrangling, it was
> argued that the GPO's monopoly on the postal service extended to the other
> peer-to-peer communications systems such as the telegraph and telephone as they
> were invented.
> 
> Had the GPO not had the telephone service rebranded BT and privatised in the
> 1980s, it would no doubt be claiming monopoly rights over Internet access as
> well. As it is, BT still pretty much control the market.

I have a recollection from the 1980's when I was 'on the inside' working on email R&D, as email started to appear on the horizon to those outside computing, Canada Post - seeing the writing on the wall - tried to get some legislation passed that would give it a monopoly.
The legislation was worded so broadly it would have covered two people speaking to each other.


From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 21:46:08 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 19:46:08 -0800
Subject: Tadpole Sparcbook 2 OS media...
Message-ID: <54E01680.3080000@gmail.com>

Kind of a long shot, but hey.  I've had this trusty old Sparcbook 2 for 
awhile now and I never did manage to track down any OS media for it.  
It's currently running a variant of SunOS 4.1.2 and the old 2.5" SCSI 
drives (plural) are still holding out, but I'd like to be able to revive 
it when they finally do go to silicon heaven.

Anyone have anything for these machines?  These are significantly 
different from the later Sparcbooks (which are considerably more 
Sun-compatible, hardware wise)...

Thanks!
Josh

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 22:20:50 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 23:20:50 -0500
Subject: Tadpole Sparcbook 2 OS media...
In-Reply-To: <54E01680.3080000@gmail.com>
References: <54E01680.3080000@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfCKsmS8g6c+mx9LuVrNaa_Y6kJgzMVkJqZZFa-yRZLbKA@mail.gmail.com>

I have SunOS 4.1.3, still in the shrink wrap, if that helps.  Will have to
dig...

On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:46 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> Kind of a long shot, but hey.  I've had this trusty old Sparcbook 2 for
> awhile now and I never did manage to track down any OS media for it.  It's
> currently running a variant of SunOS 4.1.2 and the old 2.5" SCSI drives
> (plural) are still holding out, but I'd like to be able to revive it when
> they finally do go to silicon heaven.
>
> Anyone have anything for these machines?  These are significantly
> different from the later Sparcbooks (which are considerably more
> Sun-compatible, hardware wise)...
>
> Thanks!
> Josh
>

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 22:50:53 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 23:50:53 -0500
Subject: proper chemical / glue for 11/45 switch repair?
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfCNOYhiSvAb2OJZJPydd8rsGbJpdKExNDw0QLg6psnxHw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
  One of the bit flip switches on my 11/45 front panel is broken.  It
snapped off cleanly at the pivot where the plastic meets the metal.  The
remnants of the two little plastic switch handle leg tips are still there,
in the metal switch housing.

  The fracture is clean and is such that they would fit perfectly back onto
the main hunk of the switch plastic, like new, if l could find the right
compound to get the pieces to re-meld into each other.  I guess model
airplanes used to employ this sort of melding technique I'm describing in
their construction, right?  But I have no idea of the chemistry involved --
whether pdp11 switch plastic is compatible with that sort of glue.

  I don't think I want something that just adheres, non-porously to the
bits because that would interfere with the operation of the switch pivot
point and there's no room for inaccuracy / spurting glue gobs in there.
The fracture is essentially _at_ the pivot.

  So my question: are these pdp11 switches the right sort of plastic for
this meld repair I'm describing?  If so, what's the chemical that I'd need
to make this happen?  Plain old model airplane glue?

thx
jake

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 14 23:29:49 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 21:29:49 -0800
Subject: proper chemical / glue for 11/45 switch repair?
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfCNOYhiSvAb2OJZJPydd8rsGbJpdKExNDw0QLg6psnxHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfCNOYhiSvAb2OJZJPydd8rsGbJpdKExNDw0QLg6psnxHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E02ECD.5000306@sydex.com>

On 02/14/2015 08:50 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:

>    The fracture is clean and is such that they would fit perfectly back onto
> the main hunk of the switch plastic, like new, if l could find the right
> compound to get the pieces to re-meld into each other.  I guess model
> airplanes used to employ this sort of melding technique I'm describing in
> their construction, right?  But I have no idea of the chemistry involved --
> whether pdp11 switch plastic is compatible with that sort of glue.

An -11 owner would be able to say for certain, but the old model 
airplane solvent glue was methyl chloride.  It's also in a lot paint 
stripper as well.  "Tenax" model glue is a name that comes to mind.

--Chuck



From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Feb 14 06:27:05 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 13:27:05 +0100
Subject: Any PDP8 for sale..?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuOvF-=wArtf9DY7WbVBKGpfBqgQ2QTnaU8b78aYA9xT-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2064907592.2699617.1423583326241.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACwhfuNiC_L+eEnKQ8Oz_jt78p8heRWJrCN=LyqabTNcZHVGfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20j8TZM4WLnL5pKY+OFZn2-4dh2tsg3hgoJ=GiwAayv_7tBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuOCdhHzc=OLtS5iN=75rQj9+Wy9ntrHg86jgzf1iJmnSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DF14B9.8040104@update.uu.se>
 <CACwhfuOvF-=wArtf9DY7WbVBKGpfBqgQ2QTnaU8b78aYA9xT-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DF3F19.5010802@update.uu.se>

The KT8AA (missed one A before) is M8416.
The KL8A is M8319.

The KT8AA is a memory expansion option that allows the machine to go to 
128KW, while the KL8A is a 4 serial line card.

	Johnny

On 2015-02-14 10:54, Paul Anderson wrote:
> Do you have the board numbers handy?
>
> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 3:26 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>
>> What about a KL8A, or KT8A? :-)
>>
>>          Johnny
>>
>>
>> On 2015-02-14 01:11, Paul Anderson wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Marc,
>>>
>>> I wish I had a dozen. That's one of the few 8 options I don't have.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Marc Howard <cramcram at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>   Gee, I don't suppose you have an FPP8A board set that you''d like to
>>>> sell????
>>>>
>>>> Marc
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   Hi Martin,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have extra As, Es, Fs, and Ms, with most of the options, but don't
>>>>> have
>>>>> my test beds set up yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Martin Meiner <martin at meiner.ch>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>   Being bitten by "vintage computer restoring" bug, I am long time
>>>>>>
>>>>> looking
>>>>
>>>>> for a reasonable condition PDP8, preferably a PDP8/L.
>>>>>> Is there such a machine out there looking for a new home or can someone
>>>>>> point me to a possible selling-place other than eBay? EBay has hardly
>>>>>>
>>>>> any,
>>>>>
>>>>>> and just a few weeks ago I unfortunately missed one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any help or hint is highly appreciated...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>>                                    ||  on a psychedelic trip
>> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
>> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>>


-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 07:04:40 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 08:04:40 -0500
Subject: Any PDP8 for sale..?
In-Reply-To: <54DF3F19.5010802@update.uu.se>
References: <2064907592.2699617.1423583326241.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACwhfuNiC_L+eEnKQ8Oz_jt78p8heRWJrCN=LyqabTNcZHVGfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20j8TZM4WLnL5pKY+OFZn2-4dh2tsg3hgoJ=GiwAayv_7tBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuOCdhHzc=OLtS5iN=75rQj9+Wy9ntrHg86jgzf1iJmnSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DF14B9.8040104@update.uu.se>
 <CACwhfuOvF-=wArtf9DY7WbVBKGpfBqgQ2QTnaU8b78aYA9xT-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DF3F19.5010802@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CANij+df6Ci+q15GYWB_V9aZTJhhjF0jy0C4h7Usq4Hx06v_eDQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have some KL8A boards. Contact me off list.

--
Will

On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
> The KT8AA (missed one A before) is M8416.
> The KL8A is M8319.
>
> The KT8AA is a memory expansion option that allows the machine to go to
> 128KW, while the KL8A is a 4 serial line card.
>
>         Johnny
>
>
> On 2015-02-14 10:54, Paul Anderson wrote:
>>
>> Do you have the board numbers handy?
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 3:26 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> What about a KL8A, or KT8A? :-)
>>>
>>>          Johnny
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2015-02-14 01:11, Paul Anderson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Marc,
>>>>
>>>> I wish I had a dozen. That's one of the few 8 options I don't have.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Marc Howard <cramcram at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   Gee, I don't suppose you have an FPP8A board set that you''d like to
>>>>>
>>>>> sell????
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>   Hi Martin,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have extra As, Es, Fs, and Ms, with most of the options, but don't
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> my test beds set up yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Martin Meiner <martin at meiner.ch>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Being bitten by "vintage computer restoring" bug, I am long time
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> looking
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> for a reasonable condition PDP8, preferably a PDP8/L.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there such a machine out there looking for a new home or can
>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>> point me to a possible selling-place other than eBay? EBay has hardly
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> any,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and just a few weeks ago I unfortunately missed one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any help or hint is highly appreciated...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>>>                                    ||  on a psychedelic trip
>>> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
>>> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>>>
>
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 09:23:29 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 16:23:29 +0100
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <54DE73E7.9050509@update.uu.se>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>
	<54DE73E7.9050509@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGYDKV0QCcoYWsR2NoSEqtdLO8RjxL2pv9qcnO7g8YB7A@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 February 2015 at 23:00, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> Check out Fredriks "Zusie": http://www.nablaman.com/relay/


WOW.

*Dribbles slightly*

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From enrico.lazzerini at email.it  Sat Feb 14 10:53:20 2015
From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 17:53:20 +0100
Subject: OLD ITALIAN COMPUTER
In-Reply-To: <008501d04840$4f9dc1b0$eed94510$@net>
Message-ID: <201502141653.t1EGrReI017540-t1EGrReJ017540@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it>

Hi al all,

I have an old computer without any documentation and without its keyboard.
Checking the 16-pin flat cable connected to the keyboard connector cannon
25pin I find that:

Cannon Pin Segnale
5 to Bit0 Z80BPIO
6 to Bit1 Z80BPIO
7 to Bit2 Z80BPIO
8 to Bit3 Z80BPIO
21 to Bit4 Z80BPIO
20 to Bit5 Z80BPIO
19 to Bit6 Z80BPIO
18 to Bit7 Z80BPIO
17 to BSTB di Z80BPIO the default signal is a square wave 3Vpp
15 to +5Vdc
2 to GND
16 to Gnd
14 unknown where it would go and on defaut there is no signal
4 it is connected to pin 13,14,27 of one Z80DART and on default there is a
square wave of 5V pp period 6,5microS
3 it is connected to pin 28 of the same Z80DART RxDB and on default there is
a square wave1Vpp
1 it is connected to pin10 of a 74LS123 and at default there is a + 5V

In an old review on this old computer was explained that it was necessary
that to have the firmware prompt we need to press together two distinct keys
called BREAK present on his keyboard. 
I tried to connect a parallel keyboard respecting the strobe, all the data
bits and power supplies,and gound but I can not have the prompt.

Here some pics of this machine:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/14hqo3o8e...m44JPYbta?dl=0  

Ask to someone who could explain to me the meaning of those above links to a
Z80 DART presents on a parallel port..

Regards


From pbirkel at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 12:14:09 2015
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 13:14:09 -0500
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJj77rvLHRO740RZiF9Lbsktn4Sr657Lckr_0-pb9CUQ2KL1Rg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Eric.  That might explain how I came into possession of one M8162
module.  The 11/74 never entered my mind because encountering even a piece
of one of those is ... unlikely :->.  Using up unsold inventory makes
sense; I guess that an MKA11 wouldn't function without a full complement of
modules, even if some serve no real purpose.

I've looked more closely at the pair of top-edge connectors (the ones like
the 20ma SLU connectors).  Each have 6-of-8 pins wired *thru* a 1K 1%
resistor to a separate pin on tab F.  So there are twelve lines running to
tab F, with resistors in series, and nothing else on those paths.

The rest of the module is a mix of S and LS SSI chips, and a couple of what
appear to be multi-tap delay lines, plus 5 diagnostic LEDs (unlabeled).

Would the KB11-CM have had special cabling to connect in this manner for
out-of-band signaling, and then why series resistors (rather than, e.g.,
pull-ups for an OC line driver)?

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A module" and M8163
> > "Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
> > They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
> > regarding it. [...]
> > Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
>
> The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
> multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
> have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
> on it.
>
> Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
> and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
> built for the cancelled 11/74.
>

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat Feb 14 12:28:54 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 11:28:54 -0700
Subject: building my own relay computer
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGYDKV0QCcoYWsR2NoSEqtdLO8RjxL2pv9qcnO7g8YB7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54DE6F3C.5030505@yahoo.com.au>	<54DE73E7.9050509@update.uu.se>
 <CAMTenCGYDKV0QCcoYWsR2NoSEqtdLO8RjxL2pv9qcnO7g8YB7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DF93E6.3080609@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/14/2015 8:23 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 13 February 2015 at 23:00, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
>> Check out Fredriks "Zusie": http://www.nablaman.com/relay/
>
>
> WOW.
>
> *Dribbles slightly*
>

The Homebuilt cpus web ring is nice.
Sadly I do not see many build-able computers that have any sort of 
DECIMAL arithmetic on them.
Ben.


From rickb at bensene.com  Sat Feb 14 12:45:21 2015
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 10:45:21 -0800
Subject: building my own relay computer
Message-ID: <003401d04886$20029327$050aa8c0@bensene.com>

I have often thought it would be cool to build a relay calculator, along the lines of Casio's relay calculators that they marketed for a time in the 1950's before it became clear that electronics were the way to go. They even made some scientific and programmable machines, but a basic four-function machine with an accumulating memory register would be enough.

Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculator.com

Sent from my Android phone using TouchDown (www.nitrodesk.com)

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 12:50:02 2015
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 13:50:02 -0500
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <54DC7F59.7040302@update.uu.se>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DC7F59.7040302@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAJj77rs+rUH9=LG3FN5xEyMY-+y-5CtFNBb6XQtsBcAQO6sZEg@mail.gmail.com>

So ... I should have stretched my mind a bit more in the space of "stuff
like an 11/70 but which is not an 11/70 ...".  Encountering even a bit of
an 11/74 was simply not something that I ever considered.  Thanks for the
pointer Johnny!

Looking at the preliminary Docs, Figure 1-1, where a two-processor
configuration is laid out, with two MKA11, it appears that they have their
ports cross-wired and then driven from a panel-control of some sort.  So
there's 6-bits for MK0A/MK1A, and then a separate 6-bits for MK0B/MK1B (see
earlier response to Eric about the connector arrangements).  Not at all
clear to me how that wiring relates to the description in 1.4.2.  Need to
think about this some more ...

It seems then that the Field Guide has both of these modules mis-assigned,
and the second misnamed.

I wonder if the relationship between the M8163 and M8164 is an either/or
and they go into the same slot given that Table 1-1 mentions only a single
Multiport Multiplexor (M8162) and the naming in Table 1-3 for the M8163 is
"Single Port Jumper Card"?  I guess that's what you're thinking as well.

What is the purpose of the "panel" Port Controllers, given that they seem
to be not connected to any control signals from the CPU? (Figure 1-1)

Does the "T" in the symbology in the Figure perhaps indicate "Terminator"?
If so, that seems to suggest that the signaling is out one control, into
the second and then off "through" a terminator to the panel Port Control?

Honestly, Figure 1-1 doesn't look to me like a shared-memory arrangement
... so I'm probably misinterpreting some of those lines at the moment.

Thanks for all of the additional clues and pointers guys!


On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 5:24 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

> On 2015-02-11 20:55, Eric Smith wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A module" and M8163
>>> "Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
>>> They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
>>> regarding it. [...]
>>> Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
>>>
>>
>> The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
>> multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
>> have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
>> on it.
>>
>
> I don't think that 11/72 is a valid designation. All documentation I've
> read only calls it an 11/74, no matter how many CPUs you have.
>
> You can find documentation on the MKA11 in the 11/74 documentation.
> (See http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/
> EK-70MP-TM_PRE_1170mp_Prelim_Technical_Manual_1977.pdf)
>
> And in there, you can find that:
>
> M8162 is a "Multiport Multiplexor Module"
>
> and
>
> M8163 is a "Single Port Jumper Card".
>
> So yes, both of these cards are for the MKA11.
>
> I would guess that you use the M8163 if you have an MKA11 but just a
> single CPU.
>
>  Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
>> and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
>> built for the cancelled 11/74.
>>
>
> I've heard similar. And also that CPU cards for the 11/74 were installed
> in 11/70 systems. The differences don't matter for normal operation, and it
> will work like a normal 11/70. You can detect if differences if you try,
> but the system will work like any other 11/70.
>
> Only a few CPU modules differ between an 11/70 and 11/74 anyway.
>
>         Johnny
>
>

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 12:59:25 2015
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 13:59:25 -0500
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAJj77rs+rUH9=LG3FN5xEyMY-+y-5CtFNBb6XQtsBcAQO6sZEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DC7F59.7040302@update.uu.se>
 <CAJj77rs+rUH9=LG3FN5xEyMY-+y-5CtFNBb6XQtsBcAQO6sZEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJj77rtehVHVDgeY7Feh23fXctOSOa4FoCTCTAUZNdnHtEQgAA@mail.gmail.com>

PS: Just noticed the Memory options in Table 1-3.

MKA11-AA is Single Port Memory and uses the Single Port Jumper Card.

MKA11-BA is Dual Port Memory and uses the Multiport Multiplexer.

MKA11-UA is Single port upgrade kit and includes a pair of port-buffers and
one multiport multiplexer :->.

MKA11-UB is Multiport upgrade kit adds another pair of port buffers; you
can apparently do this twice.  So I guess one Multiport Multiplexer handles
up to four ports.  Now ... how does two sets of six-bits fit into that
scheme?

M8164 isn't mentioned anywhere, so I guess that's simply a general-upgrade
replacing M8159 that applies to either MK11 or MKA11.


On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:

> So ... I should have stretched my mind a bit more in the space of "stuff
> like an 11/70 but which is not an 11/70 ...".  Encountering even a bit of
> an 11/74 was simply not something that I ever considered.  Thanks for the
> pointer Johnny!
>
> Looking at the preliminary Docs, Figure 1-1, where a two-processor
> configuration is laid out, with two MKA11, it appears that they have their
> ports cross-wired and then driven from a panel-control of some sort.  So
> there's 6-bits for MK0A/MK1A, and then a separate 6-bits for MK0B/MK1B (see
> earlier response to Eric about the connector arrangements).  Not at all
> clear to me how that wiring relates to the description in 1.4.2.  Need to
> think about this some more ...
>
> It seems then that the Field Guide has both of these modules mis-assigned,
> and the second misnamed.
>
> I wonder if the relationship between the M8163 and M8164 is an either/or
> and they go into the same slot given that Table 1-1 mentions only a single
> Multiport Multiplexor (M8162) and the naming in Table 1-3 for the M8163 is
> "Single Port Jumper Card"?  I guess that's what you're thinking as well.
>
> What is the purpose of the "panel" Port Controllers, given that they seem
> to be not connected to any control signals from the CPU? (Figure 1-1)
>
> Does the "T" in the symbology in the Figure perhaps indicate
> "Terminator"?  If so, that seems to suggest that the signaling is out one
> control, into the second and then off "through" a terminator to the panel
> Port Control?
>
> Honestly, Figure 1-1 doesn't look to me like a shared-memory arrangement
> ... so I'm probably misinterpreting some of those lines at the moment.
>
> Thanks for all of the additional clues and pointers guys!
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 5:24 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-02-11 20:55, Eric Smith wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A module" and M8163
>>>> "Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
>>>> They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
>>>> regarding it. [...]
>>>> Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
>>> multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
>>> have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
>>> on it.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think that 11/72 is a valid designation. All documentation I've
>> read only calls it an 11/74, no matter how many CPUs you have.
>>
>> You can find documentation on the MKA11 in the 11/74 documentation.
>> (See http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/
>> EK-70MP-TM_PRE_1170mp_Prelim_Technical_Manual_1977.pdf)
>>
>> And in there, you can find that:
>>
>> M8162 is a "Multiport Multiplexor Module"
>>
>> and
>>
>> M8163 is a "Single Port Jumper Card".
>>
>> So yes, both of these cards are for the MKA11.
>>
>> I would guess that you use the M8163 if you have an MKA11 but just a
>> single CPU.
>>
>>  Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
>>> and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
>>> built for the cancelled 11/74.
>>>
>>
>> I've heard similar. And also that CPU cards for the 11/74 were installed
>> in 11/70 systems. The differences don't matter for normal operation, and it
>> will work like a normal 11/70. You can detect if differences if you try,
>> but the system will work like any other 11/70.
>>
>> Only a few CPU modules differ between an 11/70 and 11/74 anyway.
>>
>>         Johnny
>>
>>
>

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Feb 14 13:24:43 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 20:24:43 +0100
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAJj77rvLHRO740RZiF9Lbsktn4Sr657Lckr_0-pb9CUQ2KL1Rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rvLHRO740RZiF9Lbsktn4Sr657Lckr_0-pb9CUQ2KL1Rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54DFA0FB.7090708@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-14 19:14, Paul Birkel wrote:
> Thanks Eric.  That might explain how I came into possession of one M8162
> module.  The 11/74 never entered my mind because encountering even a piece
> of one of those is ... unlikely :->.  Using up unsold inventory makes
> sense; I guess that an MKA11 wouldn't function without a full complement of
> modules, even if some serve no real purpose.

The MKA11 is really not much different from an MK11, and you can use an 
MKA11 in a normal 11/70 system as well as far as I understand. 
Essentially, the MKA11 is just a multiported MK11 box. And the 
multiporting is achieved through this extra module, that fits (as far as 
I can remember) in the standard MK11 box.

All the other modules in the MKA11 are the same as in the MK11.

> I've looked more closely at the pair of top-edge connectors (the ones like
> the 20ma SLU connectors).  Each have 6-of-8 pins wired *thru* a 1K 1%
> resistor to a separate pin on tab F.  So there are twelve lines running to
> tab F, with resistors in series, and nothing else on those paths.
>
> The rest of the module is a mix of S and LS SSI chips, and a couple of what
> appear to be multi-tap delay lines, plus 5 diagnostic LEDs (unlabeled).
>
> Would the KB11-CM have had special cabling to connect in this manner for
> out-of-band signaling, and then why series resistors (rather than, e.g.,
> pull-ups for an OC line driver)?

I don't think so. There is not out-of-band signalling. But you do have a 
control panel for the memory box, on which you can control the box. I 
would suspect this would be for that.
(I think there are some extra controls for an MKA11 compared to the 
standard panel of an MK11, which is for (I think) setting the memory 
on-/offline for individual CPUs, and possibly something more. It should 
be in the documentation I put in a link to.

	Johnny

>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A module" and M8163
>>> "Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
>>> They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
>>> regarding it. [...]
>>> Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
>>
>> The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
>> multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
>> have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
>> on it.
>>
>> Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
>> and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
>> built for the cancelled 11/74.
>>


-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 13:46:59 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 13:46:59 -0600
Subject: Any PDP8 for sale..?
In-Reply-To: <54DF3F19.5010802@update.uu.se>
References: <2064907592.2699617.1423583326241.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACwhfuNiC_L+eEnKQ8Oz_jt78p8heRWJrCN=LyqabTNcZHVGfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20j8TZM4WLnL5pKY+OFZn2-4dh2tsg3hgoJ=GiwAayv_7tBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuOCdhHzc=OLtS5iN=75rQj9+Wy9ntrHg86jgzf1iJmnSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DF14B9.8040104@update.uu.se>
 <CACwhfuOvF-=wArtf9DY7WbVBKGpfBqgQ2QTnaU8b78aYA9xT-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DF3F19.5010802@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuM0v4ARdXZvbXs5cX5z=igZwWzuf0ecyrJS5aQ3Te-34w@mail.gmail.com>

I should have them both. My inventory is by part number.

Sorry, I thought you contacted me off list.

Paul

On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 6:27 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

> The KT8AA (missed one A before) is M8416.
> The KL8A is M8319.
>
> The KT8AA is a memory expansion option that allows the machine to go to
> 128KW, while the KL8A is a 4 serial line card.
>
>         Johnny
>
>
> On 2015-02-14 10:54, Paul Anderson wrote:
>
>> Do you have the board numbers handy?
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 3:26 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  What about a KL8A, or KT8A? :-)
>>>
>>>          Johnny
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2015-02-14 01:11, Paul Anderson wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hi Marc,
>>>>
>>>> I wish I had a dozen. That's one of the few 8 options I don't have.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Marc Howard <cramcram at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   Gee, I don't suppose you have an FPP8A board set that you''d like to
>>>>
>>>>> sell????
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>   Hi Martin,
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have extra As, Es, Fs, and Ms, with most of the options, but don't
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> my test beds set up yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Martin Meiner <martin at meiner.ch>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Being bitten by "vintage computer restoring" bug, I am long time
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  looking
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  for a reasonable condition PDP8, preferably a PDP8/L.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there such a machine out there looking for a new home or can
>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>> point me to a possible selling-place other than eBay? EBay has hardly
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  any,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  and just a few weeks ago I unfortunately missed one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any help or hint is highly appreciated...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> --
>>> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>>>                                    ||  on a psychedelic trip
>>> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
>>> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>

From info at leehao.com  Thu Feb 12 17:42:43 2015
From: info at leehao.com (Mr Lee Hao)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 23:42:43 +0000
Subject: FYI
Message-ID: <273610387794863@79.175.176.3>

Dear Friend,

I am writing this mail in confidence . I am looking for a trust worthy person and I decided to contact you because you and the deceased customer has the same surname. 

My name Lee hao and I work in Private Banking Division of Bank of Communication Hong Kong and 9years ago I opened and managed account for an individual Ryan with a financial portfolio of USD$9,000,000.00(Nine Million United States Dollars)which he wished to invest and have spun around in the growing market in mainland China at that time.

we made various investment opportunities and this hide high return and with sometimes getting back return as high as %0.02 of funds total quarterly. This ran until last quarter in 2009 when he instructed me he had URGENT investments in Hong Kong which requires cash payment and that I liquidate funds principal(9M) and have monies available to him in Hong Kong which we did. We made contact with a reputable bank in Hong Kong at that time(Bank of China) and they agreed to receive the money for a fee and make cash available to our client. I went ahead with the transfer request and that was the end of it. However Bank of China send us memo end of 2010 informing us the money was not claim since that time and that they only inform us about this because after a certain amount of years and money not claim government confiscate money as unclaimed funds.

Further to this an enquiry was carried out and it was discovered that Ryan was involved in automobile accident in Chengdu, Sichuan Province Mainland China in 2010 and died as a result of his injuries sustained. on further enquiry we also discovered he died intestate without a known next of kin to the funds in Bank of China as his wife and only known relation had died some years earlier before making investment with my bank. 

This is what I propose: Since you share the same last name as the late Ryan you stand in as next of kin and with my exclusive access to his file and the preparation of legal documents I make you the beneficiary to the funds in bank. I painstakingly work out all modality how this should work without no one get into trouble now or in the future when all concluded. I know this might be a bit heavy for you but trust me on this for you do not have to have known him for provided you have same last name and with the arrangement I have in place I assure you this would work. Nobody get hurt as this lifetime opportunity for me to secure a better future for my family as I retire soon and with all my years in the banking sector very little to show for.

Finally I do understand you may be skeptical about this considering the fact you do not know me and we not have previous dealing. Rest assure this is a known practice in the banking industry here in Hong Kong/mainland China as this happens every time the only other alternative is money revert back to the States enriching already wealthy corrupt government officers. I send you this letter not without a measure of fear as to the consequences of this if my actions are discovered and I beg you do not betray my confidence in this matter for I know nothing ventured is nothing gained. If you are able to render your genuine assistance please get back to me immediately via, email. I look forward to executing this business deal with you.


I ask that if you find no interest in this project that you should discard this mail. I ask that you do not be vindictive and destructive. If my offer is of no appeal to you, delete this message and forget I ever contacted you. Do not destroy my career because you do not approve of my proposal. You may not know this but people like me who have made tidy sums out of comparable situations run the whole private banking sector. I am not a criminal and what I do, I do not find against good conscience, this may be hard for you to understand, but the dynamics of my industry dictates that I make this move. Such opportunities only come ones' way once in a lifetime. I cannot let this chance pass me by, for once I find myself in total control of my destiny. These chances won?t pass me by. I ask that you do not destroy my chance, if you will not work with me let me know and let me move on with my life but do not destroy me. I am a family man and this is an opportunity to provide them with new opportunities. There is a reward for this project and it is a task well worth undertaking. 

I await your response. 

Best regards
Lee Hao
Email: leehao44 at hotmail.com <mailto:leehao44 at hotmail.com>

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 00:24:26 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 01:24:26 -0500
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAJj77rtehVHVDgeY7Feh23fXctOSOa4FoCTCTAUZNdnHtEQgAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DC7F59.7040302@update.uu.se>
 <CAJj77rs+rUH9=LG3FN5xEyMY-+y-5CtFNBb6XQtsBcAQO6sZEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rtehVHVDgeY7Feh23fXctOSOa4FoCTCTAUZNdnHtEQgAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfD6QezHx2RRDaHfAeKrJ_QZoNKP2homAAFntokRPAw6rg@mail.gmail.com>

there were links to pics of an 11/74 on the list a few months ago, weren't
there?

On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:

> PS: Just noticed the Memory options in Table 1-3.
>
> MKA11-AA is Single Port Memory and uses the Single Port Jumper Card.
>
> MKA11-BA is Dual Port Memory and uses the Multiport Multiplexer.
>
> MKA11-UA is Single port upgrade kit and includes a pair of port-buffers and
> one multiport multiplexer :->.
>
> MKA11-UB is Multiport upgrade kit adds another pair of port buffers; you
> can apparently do this twice.  So I guess one Multiport Multiplexer handles
> up to four ports.  Now ... how does two sets of six-bits fit into that
> scheme?
>
> M8164 isn't mentioned anywhere, so I guess that's simply a general-upgrade
> replacing M8159 that applies to either MK11 or MKA11.
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > So ... I should have stretched my mind a bit more in the space of "stuff
> > like an 11/70 but which is not an 11/70 ...".  Encountering even a bit of
> > an 11/74 was simply not something that I ever considered.  Thanks for the
> > pointer Johnny!
> >
> > Looking at the preliminary Docs, Figure 1-1, where a two-processor
> > configuration is laid out, with two MKA11, it appears that they have
> their
> > ports cross-wired and then driven from a panel-control of some sort.  So
> > there's 6-bits for MK0A/MK1A, and then a separate 6-bits for MK0B/MK1B
> (see
> > earlier response to Eric about the connector arrangements).  Not at all
> > clear to me how that wiring relates to the description in 1.4.2.  Need to
> > think about this some more ...
> >
> > It seems then that the Field Guide has both of these modules
> mis-assigned,
> > and the second misnamed.
> >
> > I wonder if the relationship between the M8163 and M8164 is an either/or
> > and they go into the same slot given that Table 1-1 mentions only a
> single
> > Multiport Multiplexor (M8162) and the naming in Table 1-3 for the M8163
> is
> > "Single Port Jumper Card"?  I guess that's what you're thinking as well.
> >
> > What is the purpose of the "panel" Port Controllers, given that they seem
> > to be not connected to any control signals from the CPU? (Figure 1-1)
> >
> > Does the "T" in the symbology in the Figure perhaps indicate
> > "Terminator"?  If so, that seems to suggest that the signaling is out one
> > control, into the second and then off "through" a terminator to the panel
> > Port Control?
> >
> > Honestly, Figure 1-1 doesn't look to me like a shared-memory arrangement
> > ... so I'm probably misinterpreting some of those lines at the moment.
> >
> > Thanks for all of the additional clues and pointers guys!
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 5:24 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 2015-02-11 20:55, Eric Smith wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A module" and M8163
> >>>> "Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the
> MK11.
> >>>> They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've
> read
> >>>> regarding it. [...]
> >>>> Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
> >>> multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
> >>> have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
> >>> on it.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I don't think that 11/72 is a valid designation. All documentation I've
> >> read only calls it an 11/74, no matter how many CPUs you have.
> >>
> >> You can find documentation on the MKA11 in the 11/74 documentation.
> >> (See http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/
> >> EK-70MP-TM_PRE_1170mp_Prelim_Technical_Manual_1977.pdf)
> >>
> >> And in there, you can find that:
> >>
> >> M8162 is a "Multiport Multiplexor Module"
> >>
> >> and
> >>
> >> M8163 is a "Single Port Jumper Card".
> >>
> >> So yes, both of these cards are for the MKA11.
> >>
> >> I would guess that you use the M8163 if you have an MKA11 but just a
> >> single CPU.
> >>
> >>  Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
> >>> and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
> >>> built for the cancelled 11/74.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I've heard similar. And also that CPU cards for the 11/74 were installed
> >> in 11/70 systems. The differences don't matter for normal operation,
> and it
> >> will work like a normal 11/70. You can detect if differences if you try,
> >> but the system will work like any other 11/70.
> >>
> >> Only a few CPU modules differ between an 11/70 and 11/74 anyway.
> >>
> >>         Johnny
> >>
> >>
> >
>

From mtapley at swri.edu  Sun Feb 15 01:04:14 2015
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 07:04:14 +0000
Subject: FYI
In-Reply-To: <273610387794863@79.175.176.3>
References: <273610387794863@79.175.176.3>
Message-ID: <F7661E57-8E44-4EC3-8E9D-607FC890B57F@swri.edu>


On Feb 12, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Mr Lee Hao <info at leehao.com> wrote:

> Dear Friend,
> 
> I am writing this mail in confidence . I am looking for a trust worthy person and I decided to contact you because you and the deceased customer has the same surname. 
> ...
> I await your response. 
> 
> Best regards
> Lee Hao
> Email: leehao44 at hotmail.com <mailto:leehao44 at hotmail.com>

Mr. Hao, 
	I find that it is likely that there has been a mis-identification. I have quickly checked, and all of my relatives, from little Private Discussion through Corporal Discussion,  Lieutenant Discussion, and Captain Discussion, right up to  Colonel Discussion, are accounted for and all are healthy and chatty. Furthermore, we don?t recall ever having a cousin Ryan Discussion.

	Perhaps you should contact the Post family. General Post I believe is the correct contact; you can probably reach him at the Post Office.

	Best of luck with your criminal endeavor.

	Yours sincerely, 
						Lengthy Discussion. Brig. Gen, US Armed Forces.

:-)

From b4 at gewt.net  Sun Feb 15 01:41:34 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 02:41:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SC40 (pictures)
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502150238530.1226@gewt.net>

(sorry for delay, been busy!)

Evidence of having saved:

http://i.imgur.com/gatos9o.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/oBEvLP8.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ZmLpwhV.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KYl73d8.jpg

Pardon any mess!


-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From b4 at gewt.net  Sun Feb 15 01:41:34 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 02:41:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SC40 (pictures)
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502150238530.1226@gewt.net>

(sorry for delay, been busy!)

Evidence of having saved:

http://i.imgur.com/gatos9o.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/oBEvLP8.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ZmLpwhV.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KYl73d8.jpg

Pardon any mess!


-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Sun Feb 15 03:47:17 2015
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 09:47:17 +0000
Subject: Tadpole Sparcbook 2 OS media...
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfCKsmS8g6c+mx9LuVrNaa_Y6kJgzMVkJqZZFa-yRZLbKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E01680.3080000@gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfCKsmS8g6c+mx9LuVrNaa_Y6kJgzMVkJqZZFa-yRZLbKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABp7FHWeqPrJu0AUv3DMFZDuybrgQ2NH4ctTS1NZZfsJUeDLKQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have Solaris 2.5 media and a backup of the tadpole ftp site which I will
get round to putting online at some point soon. Keep pestering in the
meantime  - feel free to send me private mail.

Mark.

On 15 February 2015 at 04:20, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have SunOS 4.1.3, still in the shrink wrap, if that helps.  Will have to
> dig...
>
> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:46 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Kind of a long shot, but hey.  I've had this trusty old Sparcbook 2 for
> > awhile now and I never did manage to track down any OS media for it.
> It's
> > currently running a variant of SunOS 4.1.2 and the old 2.5" SCSI drives
> > (plural) are still holding out, but I'd like to be able to revive it when
> > they finally do go to silicon heaven.
> >
> > Anyone have anything for these machines?  These are significantly
> > different from the later Sparcbooks (which are considerably more
> > Sun-compatible, hardware wise)...
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Josh
> >
>

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb 15 09:24:13 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 15:24:13 +0000
Subject: proper chemical / glue for 11/45 switch repair?
In-Reply-To: <54E02ECD.5000306@sydex.com>
References: <CAHYQbfCNOYhiSvAb2OJZJPydd8rsGbJpdKExNDw0QLg6psnxHw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <54E02ECD.5000306@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B4533@EXMBX16.thus.corp>


> An -11 owner would be able to say for certain, but the old model
> airplane solvent glue was methyl chloride.  It's also in a lot paint
> stripper as well.  "Tenax" model glue is a name that comes to mind.

In the UK, dichloromethane (same stuff) is sold under the brand name 
'Plastic Weld', It is _by far_ the best way of mending plastics that it will
disolve. And I think DEC front panel toggles fit into that category.

That said, trying to glue the pivot pins back on to the toggle is going
to be (IMHO) a waste of time. The area is just so small. Personally, I would
drill through the toggle (make sure it's in the exact right direction) and put 
a metal pin through.

-tony

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 04:43:07 2015
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 05:43:07 -0500
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <54DFA0FB.7090708@update.uu.se>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rvLHRO740RZiF9Lbsktn4Sr657Lckr_0-pb9CUQ2KL1Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DFA0FB.7090708@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAJj77ruHVivNSMthCZj5eFf+ZkZF+pHhmgMqaUh8KVfW0-te5A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 2:24 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

> On 2015-02-14 19:14, Paul Birkel wrote:
>
>> Thanks Eric.  That might explain how I came into possession of one M8162
>> module.  The 11/74 never entered my mind because encountering even a piece
>> of one of those is ... unlikely :->.  Using up unsold inventory makes
>> sense; I guess that an MKA11 wouldn't function without a full complement
>> of
>> modules, even if some serve no real purpose.
>>
>
> The MKA11 is really not much different from an MK11, and you can use an
> MKA11 in a normal 11/70 system as well as far as I understand. Essentially,
> the MKA11 is just a multiported MK11 box. And the multiporting is achieved
> through this extra module, that fits (as far as I can remember) in the
> standard MK11 box.
>

As I understand the wording in the slim documentation, each port will
require another pair of M8158/M8159 Address/Data Buffers.  So a dual-ported
unit would need two of these pairs, and a quad-ported unit four pairs.  The
M8162 then coordinates the (up to 4) pairs.


> All the other modules in the MKA11 are the same as in the MK11.


Except the numbers of buffer pairs, there being up to 4 pairs possibly
installed?

The MK11 chassis was already full, so they would have had to reduce the
complement of MOS-modules in the MKA11.  By the time of the 11/74
presumably it was the case that increased-density ICs would have allowed
more-RAM-per-module, so the loss in MOS-module count per MKA11 would have
been acceptable.


>  I've looked more closely at the pair of top-edge connectors (the ones like
>> the 20ma SLU connectors).  Each have 6-of-8 pins wired *thru* a 1K 1%
>> resistor to a separate pin on tab F.  So there are twelve lines running to
>> tab F, with resistors in series, and nothing else on those paths.
>>
>> The rest of the module is a mix of S and LS SSI chips, and a couple of
>> what
>> appear to be multi-tap delay lines, plus 5 diagnostic LEDs (unlabeled).
>>
>> Would the KB11-CM have had special cabling to connect in this manner for
>> out-of-band signaling, and then why series resistors (rather than, e.g.,
>> pull-ups for an OC line driver)?
>>
>
> I don't think so. There is not out-of-band signalling. But you do have a
> control panel for the memory box, on which you can control the box. I would
> suspect this would be for that.
>

Right (line-diagram Figure 1-1 is pretty crude).


> (I think there are some extra controls for an MKA11 compared to the
> standard panel of an MK11, which is for (I think) setting the memory
> on-/offline for individual CPUs, and possibly something more. It should be
> in the documentation I put in a link to.
>

Beyond the claim that "Port Controls" exist, and where they get installed
in the racks, I don't see any.

Best available images seem to be at:
http://oboguev.livejournal.com/2696291.html

I like the user-supplied color-coded dots :->.  Can *almost* decipher the
front panel labeling, too.

That said, they look to me to be identical to the standard MK11 "Box
Controller".  No clue there what the extra cabling might be doing.  Maybe
the extra cabling doesn't actually involve the "Box Controller" on the
front panel at all.  Perhaps simply cross-linkage among the Port
Multiplexers in different MKA11 (can't think of a good reason for that,
offhand)?

        Johnny
>
>
>  On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A module" and M8163
>>>> "Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
>>>> They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
>>>> regarding it. [...]
>>>> Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
>>> multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
>>> have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
>>> on it.
>>>
>>> Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
>>> and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
>>> built for the cancelled 11/74.
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun Feb 15 05:37:02 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 12:37:02 +0100
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAJj77ruHVivNSMthCZj5eFf+ZkZF+pHhmgMqaUh8KVfW0-te5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rvLHRO740RZiF9Lbsktn4Sr657Lckr_0-pb9CUQ2KL1Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DFA0FB.7090708@update.uu.se>
 <CAJj77ruHVivNSMthCZj5eFf+ZkZF+pHhmgMqaUh8KVfW0-te5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E084DE.6060508@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-15 11:43, Paul Birkel wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 2:24 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-02-14 19:14, Paul Birkel wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Eric.  That might explain how I came into possession of one M8162
>>> module.  The 11/74 never entered my mind because encountering even a piece
>>> of one of those is ... unlikely :->.  Using up unsold inventory makes
>>> sense; I guess that an MKA11 wouldn't function without a full complement
>>> of
>>> modules, even if some serve no real purpose.
>>>
>>
>> The MKA11 is really not much different from an MK11, and you can use an
>> MKA11 in a normal 11/70 system as well as far as I understand. Essentially,
>> the MKA11 is just a multiported MK11 box. And the multiporting is achieved
>> through this extra module, that fits (as far as I can remember) in the
>> standard MK11 box.
>>
>
> As I understand the wording in the slim documentation, each port will
> require another pair of M8158/M8159 Address/Data Buffers.  So a dual-ported
> unit would need two of these pairs, and a quad-ported unit four pairs.  The
> M8162 then coordinates the (up to 4) pairs.

Hmm. That might be, I should read through the documentation.

>> All the other modules in the MKA11 are the same as in the MK11.
>
>
> Except the numbers of buffer pairs, there being up to 4 pairs possibly
> installed?


If you need one M8158/M8159 per CPU, in addition to the M8162 (one per 
two CPUs?), that means a lot of cards.

> The MK11 chassis was already full, so they would have had to reduce the
> complement of MOS-modules in the MKA11.  By the time of the 11/74
> presumably it was the case that increased-density ICs would have allowed
> more-RAM-per-module, so the loss in MOS-module count per MKA11 would have
> been acceptable.

No. Unfortunately it will not work that way.
The MK11 have a backplane which uses a special addressing scheme which 
sets the maximum memory size per card to 128Kword. So a fully stocked 
normal MK11 is 2 Mword. If you reduce the number of slots for memory 
cards, you will simply not be able to get the full 2Mword in one box, 
but will be forced to go for 2 boxes.
The original memory cards for the MK11 is 32Kword, which meant you had 
to have a number of MK11 boxes to get to max memory. I'm not sure the 
128Kword cards were even available when the 11/74 was made.

The limitation isn't only the lack of more address pins for the memory 
cards. Each card slot have a card enable signal, in addition to the 
address pins. At reset time, the M8158/M8159 sets up the ECC of all 
cards in parallel, by enabling all the card select pins in parallel and 
writing data. So in essence, all memory cards are written to in parallel 
at reset.

As a small side note, the VAX-11/750 uses the same memory card bus as 
the MK11. So you can move 32Kword and 128Kword memory cards between an 
11/70 and a VAX-11/750. However, the VAX-11/750 also supports 512Kword 
cards, but those can not be used an a MK11 box without both hardware and 
software hacking. (If someone wants to try this, let me know. I can 
provide more details on what is needed to be done in order to do this, 
since I have done it in the past.)

>>   I've looked more closely at the pair of top-edge connectors (the ones like
>>> the 20ma SLU connectors).  Each have 6-of-8 pins wired *thru* a 1K 1%
>>> resistor to a separate pin on tab F.  So there are twelve lines running to
>>> tab F, with resistors in series, and nothing else on those paths.
>>>
>>> The rest of the module is a mix of S and LS SSI chips, and a couple of
>>> what
>>> appear to be multi-tap delay lines, plus 5 diagnostic LEDs (unlabeled).
>>>
>>> Would the KB11-CM have had special cabling to connect in this manner for
>>> out-of-band signaling, and then why series resistors (rather than, e.g.,
>>> pull-ups for an OC line driver)?
>>>
>>
>> I don't think so. There is not out-of-band signalling. But you do have a
>> control panel for the memory box, on which you can control the box. I would
>> suspect this would be for that.
>>
>
> Right (line-diagram Figure 1-1 is pretty crude).
>
>
>> (I think there are some extra controls for an MKA11 compared to the
>> standard panel of an MK11, which is for (I think) setting the memory
>> on-/offline for individual CPUs, and possibly something more. It should be
>> in the documentation I put in a link to.
>>
>
> Beyond the claim that "Port Controls" exist, and where they get installed
> in the racks, I don't see any.
>
> Best available images seem to be at:
> http://oboguev.livejournal.com/2696291.html

Those are copies of some of the pictures Dave Carroll made a bunch of 
years ago. The originals are here: 
https://plus.google.com/photos/104560031285123036919/albums/5632654788488216449?banner=pwa

> I like the user-supplied color-coded dots :->.  Can *almost* decipher the
> front panel labeling, too.
>
> That said, they look to me to be identical to the standard MK11 "Box
> Controller".  No clue there what the extra cabling might be doing.  Maybe
> the extra cabling doesn't actually involve the "Box Controller" on the
> front panel at all.  Perhaps simply cross-linkage among the Port
> Multiplexers in different MKA11 (can't think of a good reason for that,
> offhand)?

I would have to research this more to answer. :-)
But you are right in that it appears each CPU have its own panel for 
each box, meaning the same box could appear at different addresses for 
different CPUs. I had forgotten that. That is pretty cool, and I guess 
that is how they managed to run diagnostics on one CPU while the others 
were running in normal production. (There are special tools in 
RSX-11M-PLUS to do some cool stuff around this.)

I wonder if there might be some connection between the memory boxes and 
the IIST?

	Johnny

>
>          Johnny
>>
>>
>>   On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>   On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A module" and M8163
>>>>> "Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
>>>>> They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
>>>>> regarding it. [...]
>>>>> Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
>>>> multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
>>>> have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
>>>> on it.
>>>>
>>>> Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
>>>> and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
>>>> built for the cancelled 11/74.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>>                                    ||  on a psychedelic trip
>> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
>> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>>


-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 10:17:02 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 08:17:02 -0800
Subject: Working Commodore 65 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKC2C_0UOFLsN_ROLJpDSJb0+NUr0vAwyW2iqssHGVXAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABVr2Ps=MTs8B8wVrCG6VHn+Bgjeweoa6_k0k+AMJc9n_mM_yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DE3B49.6070207@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOwKgDGmQfQHMn=VanSb-ohbcRdFj8wFj+h3yGKM=izjrmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKC2C_0UOFLsN_ROLJpDSJb0+NUr0vAwyW2iqssHGVXAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJ9LaXgL0TbYed0HAqagUC-jbTfeiFOST8ifMjsawc6pg@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 13, 2015 9:58 AM, "jwsmobile" <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 2/13/2015 8:01 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote:
>>
>> I presume I can't be the only one watching this eBay auction in
disbelief.
>> I'm wondering if this is a museum or not. Presumably a private collector
>> would not have such deep pockets, but you never know!
>>
>> Over $13k USD and still a little less than 2 days to go!
>>
> Ultra-rare-Commodore-65-C65-DX64-prototype-working-serial-22
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm//171673209321
>
> Mr. 544 feedback is being trolled by 0 and 1 feedback idiots.  One has to
wonder.
>
> I wouldn't use this auction as a reference in an appraisal.
>
> Jim

Ended at just under $23K USD (?20,050)

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 10:37:28 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 10:37:28 -0600
Subject: Working Commodore 65 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJ9LaXgL0TbYed0HAqagUC-jbTfeiFOST8ifMjsawc6pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABVr2Ps=MTs8B8wVrCG6VHn+Bgjeweoa6_k0k+AMJc9n_mM_yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DE3B49.6070207@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOwKgDGmQfQHMn=VanSb-ohbcRdFj8wFj+h3yGKM=izjrmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKC2C_0UOFLsN_ROLJpDSJb0+NUr0vAwyW2iqssHGVXAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwJ9LaXgL0TbYed0HAqagUC-jbTfeiFOST8ifMjsawc6pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd75DsmnW4=Lytxo7j9z+rjfi9nfZ05-R=Wz6K1wuQeAdA@mail.gmail.com>

Breathtaking..

Question is, will they actually collect on it?

On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 13, 2015 9:58 AM, "jwsmobile" <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 2/13/2015 8:01 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote:
> >>
> >> I presume I can't be the only one watching this eBay auction in
> disbelief.
> >> I'm wondering if this is a museum or not. Presumably a private collector
> >> would not have such deep pockets, but you never know!
> >>
> >> Over $13k USD and still a little less than 2 days to go!
> >>
> > Ultra-rare-Commodore-65-C65-DX64-prototype-working-serial-22
> >
> > http://www.ebay.com/itm//171673209321
> >
> > Mr. 544 feedback is being trolled by 0 and 1 feedback idiots.  One has to
> wonder.
> >
> > I wouldn't use this auction as a reference in an appraisal.
> >
> > Jim
>
> Ended at just under $23K USD (?20,050)
>

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 11:34:26 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 09:34:26 -0800
Subject: Tadpole Sparcbook 2 OS media...
In-Reply-To: <CABp7FHWeqPrJu0AUv3DMFZDuybrgQ2NH4ctTS1NZZfsJUeDLKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E01680.3080000@gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfCKsmS8g6c+mx9LuVrNaa_Y6kJgzMVkJqZZFa-yRZLbKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHWeqPrJu0AUv3DMFZDuybrgQ2NH4ctTS1NZZfsJUeDLKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E0D8A2.2000802@gmail.com>

Thanks, but I think Solaris 2.5 is much too new for the Sparcbook 2 (and 
I believe that the stock Sun versions of earlier versions (like SunOS 
4.1.3) are incompatible as well -- it's been awhile since I last tried 
but I don't think the stock kernel will boot).

If anyone knows differently, let me know...

Thanks,
Josh

On 2/15/2015 1:47 AM, Mark Wickens wrote:
> I have Solaris 2.5 media and a backup of the tadpole ftp site which I will
> get round to putting online at some point soon. Keep pestering in the
> meantime  - feel free to send me private mail.
>
> Mark.
>
> On 15 February 2015 at 04:20, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I have SunOS 4.1.3, still in the shrink wrap, if that helps.  Will have to
>> dig...
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:46 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Kind of a long shot, but hey.  I've had this trusty old Sparcbook 2 for
>>> awhile now and I never did manage to track down any OS media for it.
>> It's
>>> currently running a variant of SunOS 4.1.2 and the old 2.5" SCSI drives
>>> (plural) are still holding out, but I'd like to be able to revive it when
>>> they finally do go to silicon heaven.
>>>
>>> Anyone have anything for these machines?  These are significantly
>>> different from the later Sparcbooks (which are considerably more
>>> Sun-compatible, hardware wise)...
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> Josh
>>>


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Feb 15 16:24:41 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 22:24:41 -0000
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>,
 <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com>

A little while back I posted about a possible 8085 CPU fault on my VT101
terminal controller. After a session with the logic analyser, courtesy of
another member of this list, we determined that the 8085 was indeed bad. We
substituted it with another 8085 and the terminal controller started working
normally.

However. This has revealed a fault on the monitor control board. There is
the occasional vertical wobble. Sometimes the image is stable, then it will
wobble up and down a bit, sometimes just a bit, sometimes more frequently,
then it will stabilise for a few seconds, then it will wobble again, etc
etc. I know it is the monitor control board because we sent the Video Out
output to a separate monitor and it was perfect.

I have checked the ESR on all the electrolytics, they are all fine. Prior to
all this I had replaced C439 with a higher voltage rated component, as
recommended here: https://trmm.net/VT100. I used a 100uF part, rated at
100V. I had also replaced C437 as that had a high ESR prior to seeing this
problem.

Is there anything else I should check?

Regards

Rob


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Sun Feb 15 17:34:48 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 23:34:48 +0000 (WET)
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 15 Feb 2015 22:24:41 +0000"
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net> <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <01PIKGN34HEG00659F@beyondthepale.ie>

Robert Jarratt wrote:
>
> However. This has revealed a fault on the monitor control board. There is
> the occasional vertical wobble. Sometimes the image is stable, then it will
> wobble up and down a bit, sometimes just a bit, sometimes more frequently,
> then it will stabilise for a few seconds, then it will wobble again, etc
> etc. I know it is the monitor control board because we sent the Video Out
> output to a separate monitor and it was perfect.
>
> I have checked the ESR on all the electrolytics, they are all fine. Prior to
> all this I had replaced C439 with a higher voltage rated component, as
> recommended here: https://trmm.net/VT100. I used a 100uF part, rated at
> 100V. I had also replaced C437 as that had a high ESR prior to seeing this
> problem.
>
> Is there anything else I should check?
>

I've no experience of the VT101 so these are just general suggestions:

- Examine the symptom closely and try to figure out exactly what is happening.
  Maybe it is a change in height, a change in linearity, a shift of the whole
  raster, a loss of synchronisation or something else I haven't thought of.
  Different answers will suggest different components to examine more closely.

- Tap the board with an insulated tool to check for intermittent contacts.

- Check for dodgy preset potentiometers or other controls in the vertical area.
  If the whole raster is moving up and down, look particularly for a vertical
  shift control and see if adjusting it slightly produces the same effect.

- Put a scope on the power supply to relevant stages in the vertical section
  and watch for a change when the wobble happens.  Monitoring waveforms in
  the vertical section might also reveal something.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Feb 15 20:40:55 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 21:40:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Working Commodore 65 on eBay
Message-ID: <20150216024055.97BB018C0D5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Glen Slick

    >> "jwsmobile" <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:

    >> Mr. 544 feedback is being trolled by 0 and 1 feedback idiots.

    > Ended at just under $23K USD

Interestingly, although the winning bidder was pushed up an extra 1K by one of
those feedback-1 trolls, there were a couple of real bidders right underneath
them. So that price is _basically_ real; three people all felt it was worth
roughly that.


It's so bizarre, the way some stuff is in such demand, and other stuff is
basically totally unwanted.

I told this guy:

  http://www.ebay.com/itm/221685737714

there was no way he'd get that much for that set of cards, and he was like
'but some of this old computers stuff is going for a ton of money'. I was
like, 'For things which are in short supply, and in demand, yes; neither of
those is true of M8044/M8045's....' (Although for them, it's understandable;
there are plenty of higher-density QBUS memory cards going for not much.)

	Noel

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb 15 14:10:36 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 12:10:36 -0800
Subject: proper chemical / glue for 11/45 switch repair?
In-Reply-To: <1b863644b2f239da41d1e807080d10b8.squirrel@www.sadata.se>
References: <mailman.3.1424023200.45250.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <1b863644b2f239da41d1e807080d10b8.squirrel@www.sadata.se>
Message-ID: <54E0FD3C.1020500@sydex.com>

On 02/15/2015 10:28 AM, Anders Sandahl wrote:

> I used the core from a copper wire 1,5mm2 since the diameter turned out to
> be perfect.

I keep a box of used stainless steel bicycle spokes (most 14 ga. 
"straight") that I get from a couple of local bicycle shops for nothing.

They're in everything in the house--floppy drive latches, coffee mills, 
you name it.  Very handy.

--Chuck



From anders at abc80.net  Sun Feb 15 12:28:21 2015
From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 19:28:21 +0100
Subject: proper chemical / glue for 11/45 switch repair?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1424023200.45250.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1424023200.45250.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <1b863644b2f239da41d1e807080d10b8.squirrel@www.sadata.se>

> Message: 27
> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 15:24:13 +0000
> From: tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> 	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: RE: proper chemical / glue for 11/45 switch repair?
> Message-ID:
> 	<A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B4533 at EXMBX16.thus.corp>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>> An -11 owner would be able to say for certain, but the old model
>> airplane solvent glue was methyl chloride.  It's also in a lot paint
>> stripper as well.  "Tenax" model glue is a name that comes to mind.
>
> In the UK, dichloromethane (same stuff) is sold under the brand name
> 'Plastic Weld', It is _by far_ the best way of mending plastics that it
> will
> disolve. And I think DEC front panel toggles fit into that category.
>
> That said, trying to glue the pivot pins back on to the toggle is going
> to be (IMHO) a waste of time. The area is just so small. Personally, I
> would
> drill through the toggle (make sure it's in the exact right direction) and
> put
> a metal pin through.
>
> -tony

It has been done! I did it on my switches on the old 8/L.

http://www.abc80.net/zz/pdp8/DSC_9858.JPG
http://www.abc80.net/zz/pdp8/DSC_9864.JPG
http://www.abc80.net/zz/pdp8/DSC_9865.JPG

I used the core from a copper wire 1,5mm2 since the diameter turned out to
be perfect.

/Anders


From earl at retrobits.com  Sun Feb 15 13:46:58 2015
From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 11:46:58 -0800
Subject: TSX Plus...
In-Reply-To: <20140303201107.78bb62b2@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <20140303201107.78bb62b2@asrock.bcwi.net>
Message-ID: <CAMDAk4cU6+o2YOnRB=w=LCYHjG2aFEH-N9JKNCtKpf-iXb8aCw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com>
wrote:

> After stating that I expected TSX Plus to be available generally to the
> collector community this week, I have had a number of folks request
> access to TSX plus via private FTP.
>
> Please be a bit patient and wait for me to post it to a new website I'm
> in the process of creating. I now have full agreement from S&H to
> generally release TSX Plus, COBOL, etc., to the collector community via
> a simple download.
>

After a bit of a hiatus with the PDP-11, I'm getting back into it.
Wondering if there's any update on this? Would be great to see the TSX Plus
bits and documentation you've collected, especially considering your work
with S&H to pave the way.

- Earl


>
>

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb 15 14:32:50 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 20:32:50 +0000
Subject: PERQ
In-Reply-To: <54DE737F.2010908@snarc.net>
References: <54DE737F.2010908@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B4595@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> 
> MARCH's PERQ-1 is missing the keyboard and control tablet. Does anyone
> have those that we could borrow, in order to bring up the system? We're
> looking to work on it in June this year.

If it's any help, the PERQ 1 (and 1A) tablet is a standed GPIB-interfaced
Sumagraphics Bit Pad 1.

The keyboard is a custom unit, of course. It's an 8 bit parallel output (+strobe),
the bottom 7 bits are the key ASCII code (most of the time) and the top bit is the 
control key (!). The keyboard unit also contains the system reset button (just grounds
one of the pins on the connector) and the DDS display, which is a 3 digit decimal 
up-counter + display, it counts the pulses on another pin of the connector and is 
reset by the reset button. 

I should be able to find more detailed information if you can't get the original 
keyboard and are forced to kludge something up.

-tony

From evan at snarc.net  Sun Feb 15 14:49:50 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 15:49:50 -0500
Subject: PERQ
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B4595@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
References: <54DE737F.2010908@snarc.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B4595@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <54E1066E.7050804@snarc.net>


>> MARCH's PERQ-1 is missing the keyboard and control tablet. Does anyone
>> have those that we could borrow, in order to bring up the system? We're
>> looking to work on it in June this year.
> If it's any help, the PERQ 1 (and 1A) tablet is a standed GPIB-interfaced
> Sumagraphics Bit Pad 1.
>
> The keyboard is a custom unit, of course. It's an 8 bit parallel output (+strobe),
> the bottom 7 bits are the key ASCII code (most of the time) and the top bit is the
> control key (!). The keyboard unit also contains the system reset button (just grounds
> one of the pins on the connector) and the DDS display, which is a 3 digit decimal
> up-counter + display, it counts the pulses on another pin of the connector and is
> reset by the reset button.
>
> I should be able to find more detailed information if you can't get the original
> keyboard and are forced to kludge something up.

Thanks Tony.

John D. emailed me and said he knows someone here in the US who might 
have spares that we can borrow. I'll let you know how that goes (off-list).

From jim at deitygraveyard.com  Sun Feb 15 14:56:30 2015
From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 15:56:30 -0500
Subject: TSX Plus...
In-Reply-To: <CAMDAk4cU6+o2YOnRB=w=LCYHjG2aFEH-N9JKNCtKpf-iXb8aCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20140303201107.78bb62b2@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <CAMDAk4cU6+o2YOnRB=w=LCYHjG2aFEH-N9JKNCtKpf-iXb8aCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+oaVqyGs6OXcMs6NX_cRc_Qix8+xq1bm4eyyF7gM_=-1vQxBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Earl Evans <earl at retrobits.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com>
> wrote:
>
>> After stating that I expected TSX Plus to be available generally to the
>> collector community this week, I have had a number of folks request
>> access to TSX plus via private FTP.
>>
>> Please be a bit patient and wait for me to post it to a new website I'm
>> in the process of creating. I now have full agreement from S&H to
>> generally release TSX Plus, COBOL, etc., to the collector community via
>> a simple download.
>>
>
> After a bit of a hiatus with the PDP-11, I'm getting back into it.
> Wondering if there's any update on this? Would be great to see the TSX Plus
> bits and documentation you've collected, especially considering your work
> with S&H to pave the way.
>


I am also very interested in this.

Jim

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 19:56:30 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 18:56:30 -0700
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAJj77ruHVivNSMthCZj5eFf+ZkZF+pHhmgMqaUh8KVfW0-te5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rvLHRO740RZiF9Lbsktn4Sr657Lckr_0-pb9CUQ2KL1Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DFA0FB.7090708@update.uu.se>
 <CAJj77ruHVivNSMthCZj5eFf+ZkZF+pHhmgMqaUh8KVfW0-te5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSAHPab=Mn8x+kixxYbi_YK1cNkFOw5tutYfas8OdDWgw@mail.gmail.com>

It appears that the module utilization of the MKA11 is significantly
different than the MK11, so it must have a much different backplane.
The photo of the MKA11 only shows eight storage array modules, in
slots 9-12 and 18-21, though slots 5-8 and 22-25 might also be
available for storage array modules. The memory bus cabling is
obviously quite cumbersome, and adding storage modules in slots 22-25
looks like it could exacerbate that problem.The MK11 supports 16
storage array modules in slots 2-9 and 18-25. The module assignments
for the non-storage modules also appear to be different.

It's a shame that the KB11-Cm and MKA11 field maintenance print sets
aren't anywhere to be found. While the available 11/74 documentation
offers a description of how the KB11-Cm differs from the KB11-C
(mostly interlocked ASRB and cache bypass), it's a shame that we can't
study the actual details of how those changes were implemented.

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 21:17:32 2015
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 16:17:32 +1300
Subject: PERQ
In-Reply-To: <54DE737F.2010908@snarc.net>
References: <54DE737F.2010908@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbMqVD94emuTd4+dpm59LeV9NOBbkeJvbw_k_qhhn4MvFg@mail.gmail.com>

I have a complete PERQ-1. I can loan, but not give. Remind me closer
to the time!

Mike

On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> wrote:
> MARCH's PERQ-1 is missing the keyboard and control tablet. Does anyone have
> those that we could borrow, in order to bring up the system? We're looking
> to work on it in June this year.



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From dave at 661.org  Mon Feb 16 03:40:50 2015
From: dave at 661.org (Dave G.)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 09:40:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: DECwriter LA12 "correspondent" key
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502160940390.17542@nyx.feedle.net>


I have an LA12 that's mising the "DATA/TALK" key.  Does anyone have or know of 
a junked LA12 keyboard from which I can take that key?  Failing that, would a 
VT100 key physically fit?  How about 3D-printing the key?

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 02:05:14 2015
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 03:05:14 -0500
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSAHPab=Mn8x+kixxYbi_YK1cNkFOw5tutYfas8OdDWgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rvLHRO740RZiF9Lbsktn4Sr657Lckr_0-pb9CUQ2KL1Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DFA0FB.7090708@update.uu.se>
 <CAJj77ruHVivNSMthCZj5eFf+ZkZF+pHhmgMqaUh8KVfW0-te5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSAHPab=Mn8x+kixxYbi_YK1cNkFOw5tutYfas8OdDWgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJj77rtMDd4aX584wZvfy+jfjro6pHq5A1Gmt8tw_P9iJ03idw@mail.gmail.com>

Notice the two unused connectors on the M8162 there in the middle slot
(#15).

As this looks like an operational configuration, I infer that those two
connectors are used for ... nothing?  Test points (through series
resistors)?

I see (how can one miss!) the address and data ribbon-cables.  The
remaining white ribbon-cables must be for the box controllers. So, that
looks like a 1Mw configuration.  Maybe 1.5Mw if, as you suggest, you're
careful?

Agree about the missing documentation :-<.

Thanks for the better pic-pointer; knew that I can seen those in the past
but couldn't recall where (and Google didn't help).


On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 8:56 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:

> It appears that the module utilization of the MKA11 is significantly
> different than the MK11, so it must have a much different backplane.
> The photo of the MKA11 only shows eight storage array modules, in
> slots 9-12 and 18-21, though slots 5-8 and 22-25 might also be
> available for storage array modules. The memory bus cabling is
> obviously quite cumbersome, and adding storage modules in slots 22-25
> looks like it could exacerbate that problem.The MK11 supports 16
> storage array modules in slots 2-9 and 18-25. The module assignments
> for the non-storage modules also appear to be different.
>
> It's a shame that the KB11-Cm and MKA11 field maintenance print sets
> aren't anywhere to be found. While the available 11/74 documentation
> offers a description of how the KB11-Cm differs from the KB11-C
> (mostly interlocked ASRB and cache bypass), it's a shame that we can't
> study the actual details of how those changes were implemented.
>

From plamenspam at afterpeople.com  Mon Feb 16 02:18:38 2015
From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:18:38 +0200
Subject: Tadpole Sparcbook 2 OS media...
In-Reply-To: <54E0D8A2.2000802@gmail.com>
References: <54E01680.3080000@gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfCKsmS8g6c+mx9LuVrNaa_Y6kJgzMVkJqZZFa-yRZLbKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHWeqPrJu0AUv3DMFZDuybrgQ2NH4ctTS1NZZfsJUeDLKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E0D8A2.2000802@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPLeS_q6EZQnPT54n6vvT3TX5OHgNMUEafxMmPg5AqEZxPhHEQ@mail.gmail.com>

My tadpole sparcbook 2 is running  4.1.3 happily.

Regards,
Plamen

On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 7:34 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks, but I think Solaris 2.5 is much too new for the Sparcbook 2 (and I
> believe that the stock Sun versions of earlier versions (like SunOS 4.1.3)
> are incompatible as well -- it's been awhile since I last tried but I don't
> think the stock kernel will boot).
>
> If anyone knows differently, let me know...
>
> Thanks,
> Josh
>
>
> On 2/15/2015 1:47 AM, Mark Wickens wrote:
>
>> I have Solaris 2.5 media and a backup of the tadpole ftp site which I will
>> get round to putting online at some point soon. Keep pestering in the
>> meantime  - feel free to send me private mail.
>>
>> Mark.
>>
>> On 15 February 2015 at 04:20, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  I have SunOS 4.1.3, still in the shrink wrap, if that helps.  Will have
>>> to
>>> dig...
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:46 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Kind of a long shot, but hey.  I've had this trusty old Sparcbook 2 for
>>>> awhile now and I never did manage to track down any OS media for it.
>>>>
>>> It's
>>>
>>>> currently running a variant of SunOS 4.1.2 and the old 2.5" SCSI drives
>>>> (plural) are still holding out, but I'd like to be able to revive it
>>>> when
>>>> they finally do go to silicon heaven.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone have anything for these machines?  These are significantly
>>>> different from the later Sparcbooks (which are considerably more
>>>> Sun-compatible, hardware wise)...
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Josh
>>>>
>>>>
>

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 02:23:01 2015
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 03:23:01 -0500
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAJj77rtMDd4aX584wZvfy+jfjro6pHq5A1Gmt8tw_P9iJ03idw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rvLHRO740RZiF9Lbsktn4Sr657Lckr_0-pb9CUQ2KL1Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DFA0FB.7090708@update.uu.se>
 <CAJj77ruHVivNSMthCZj5eFf+ZkZF+pHhmgMqaUh8KVfW0-te5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSAHPab=Mn8x+kixxYbi_YK1cNkFOw5tutYfas8OdDWgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rtMDd4aX584wZvfy+jfjro6pHq5A1Gmt8tw_P9iJ03idw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJj77rsXakrgi5sTR=hGKdo-NUcQ=mr6_Od-r=7ZNsie+Dk+qQ@mail.gmail.com>

Ah.  I need to count better.  There are *two* MKA11 per CPU, thus each only
*needs* just a 1 Mw configuration due to address-space limitations.

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 3:05 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:

> Notice the two unused connectors on the M8162 there in the middle slot
> (#15).
>
> As this looks like an operational configuration, I infer that those two
> connectors are used for ... nothing?  Test points (through series
> resistors)?
>
> I see (how can one miss!) the address and data ribbon-cables.  The
> remaining white ribbon-cables must be for the box controllers. So, that
> looks like a 1Mw configuration.  Maybe 1.5Mw if, as you suggest, you're
> careful?
>
> Agree about the missing documentation :-<.
>
> Thanks for the better pic-pointer; knew that I can seen those in the past
> but couldn't recall where (and Google didn't help).
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 8:56 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It appears that the module utilization of the MKA11 is significantly
>> different than the MK11, so it must have a much different backplane.
>> The photo of the MKA11 only shows eight storage array modules, in
>> slots 9-12 and 18-21, though slots 5-8 and 22-25 might also be
>> available for storage array modules. The memory bus cabling is
>> obviously quite cumbersome, and adding storage modules in slots 22-25
>> looks like it could exacerbate that problem.The MK11 supports 16
>> storage array modules in slots 2-9 and 18-25. The module assignments
>> for the non-storage modules also appear to be different.
>>
>> It's a shame that the KB11-Cm and MKA11 field maintenance print sets
>> aren't anywhere to be found. While the available 11/74 documentation
>> offers a description of how the KB11-Cm differs from the KB11-C
>> (mostly interlocked ASRB and cache bypass), it's a shame that we can't
>> study the actual details of how those changes were implemented.
>>
>
>

From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 02:27:07 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 01:27:07 -0700
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAJj77rtMDd4aX584wZvfy+jfjro6pHq5A1Gmt8tw_P9iJ03idw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rvLHRO740RZiF9Lbsktn4Sr657Lckr_0-pb9CUQ2KL1Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DFA0FB.7090708@update.uu.se>
 <CAJj77ruHVivNSMthCZj5eFf+ZkZF+pHhmgMqaUh8KVfW0-te5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSAHPab=Mn8x+kixxYbi_YK1cNkFOw5tutYfas8OdDWgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rtMDd4aX584wZvfy+jfjro6pHq5A1Gmt8tw_P9iJ03idw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTS0WEduc+yLN=zxE_bKgB1xrswtY95YL+kaXE_o-jzM7A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 1:05 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
> Notice the two unused connectors on the M8162 there in the middle slot
> (#15).
>
> As this looks like an operational configuration, I infer that those two
> connectors are used for ... nothing?  Test points (through series
> resistors)?
>
> I see (how can one miss!) the address and data ribbon-cables.  The
> remaining white ribbon-cables must be for the box controllers. So, that
> looks like a 1Mw configuration.  Maybe 1.5Mw if, as you suggest, you're
> careful?

It appears to me that the off-white or light-grey cables are address
and data cables, just as the grey ones, and the color was simply what
was available at the time, or from a different cable vendor. The other
boxes show different mixes of shades of gray for their cables.

I believe that the molex connectors on the card in slot 15 are for the
control box, and were either removed for the photograph, or were not
necessary for the operation of the machine.  Note that CPU A and B do
not have fully populated memory control panels, which suggests that
the memory control panel wasn't strictly necessary for machine
operation, though obviously very desirable for diagnostic purposes.  I
don't really know, but if I'd designed the MKA11, I would have
designed it so that without the controller connected, all ports are
enabled.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 02:42:16 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 01:42:16 -0700
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAJj77rsXakrgi5sTR=hGKdo-NUcQ=mr6_Od-r=7ZNsie+Dk+qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rvLHRO740RZiF9Lbsktn4Sr657Lckr_0-pb9CUQ2KL1Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DFA0FB.7090708@update.uu.se>
 <CAJj77ruHVivNSMthCZj5eFf+ZkZF+pHhmgMqaUh8KVfW0-te5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSAHPab=Mn8x+kixxYbi_YK1cNkFOw5tutYfas8OdDWgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rtMDd4aX584wZvfy+jfjro6pHq5A1Gmt8tw_P9iJ03idw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rsXakrgi5sTR=hGKdo-NUcQ=mr6_Od-r=7ZNsie+Dk+qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTcr5hWpHE=gtQjmePAsisECdRgGR+wr_p+gX4SqJ+W-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 1:23 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ah.  I need to count better.  There are *two* MKA11 per CPU, thus each only
> *needs* just a 1 Mw configuration due to address-space limitations.

I don't think so. The system shown in the photos has four CPUs, and
four MKA11 boxes.  The MKA11 boxes are located in the right half of
the cabinet housing CPU C, and the left half of the cabinet housing
CPU D.  There's no evidence in the photos of there being any more
MKA11 boxes other than those.  For instance, the right half of the
cabinet housing CPU B clearly contains no MKA11 boxes, but rather what
appear to be Unibus expansion boxes.  Only one photo shows the the
right half of the cabinet housing CPU A open, and the view is
partially obstructed by the CPU being extended out on its rails, but
it definitely does not appear to have any MKA11 boxes either.

If each MKA11 box has eight MS11-KE storage array modules (M7984),
that is 256KW per MKA11, for 1MW total. While that's only just over
half of the physical memory address space of the CPUs (1920KW, because
the top 128KW is reserved for the Unibus address space), that seems
like a very plausible real-world system configuration.

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 03:28:32 2015
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 04:28:32 -0500
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAJj77rsXakrgi5sTR=hGKdo-NUcQ=mr6_Od-r=7ZNsie+Dk+qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rvLHRO740RZiF9Lbsktn4Sr657Lckr_0-pb9CUQ2KL1Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DFA0FB.7090708@update.uu.se>
 <CAJj77ruHVivNSMthCZj5eFf+ZkZF+pHhmgMqaUh8KVfW0-te5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSAHPab=Mn8x+kixxYbi_YK1cNkFOw5tutYfas8OdDWgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rtMDd4aX584wZvfy+jfjro6pHq5A1Gmt8tw_P9iJ03idw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rsXakrgi5sTR=hGKdo-NUcQ=mr6_Od-r=7ZNsie+Dk+qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJj77rscRgTgkeiczxnL580xW2iey8EUEe1na82Je_f67Qd13A@mail.gmail.com>

Need more experience finding Waldo, too!  I see that only C/D have the
MKA11 in their associated-rack, so that's 1 Mw/CPU in the configuration
seen.

What's going on in the A/B associated racks?  I see what appear to be three
BA11-L chassis (lower-A; upper- & lower-B).  And then a non-standard
forward-facing vertical-orientation quad-height(?) module-cage in mid-B
(any ideas as to what that might be; the bit of backplane visible to the
left looks more like something QBus-era)?  Finally there's the large blank
cover in upper-A ...

What role might the 11/44(?) have played (really fancy serial-console)?
Looks rather aged in appearance; surprising.

Would those have been MASSBUS drives in that 4-wide rack-set (perhaps
hidden behind the lower panels; not sure about the row immediately above
that, but the two to the upper-right appear to be RL02)?


On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 3:23 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ah.  I need to count better.  There are *two* MKA11 per CPU, thus each
> only *needs* just a 1 Mw configuration due to address-space limitations.
>
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 3:05 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Notice the two unused connectors on the M8162 there in the middle slot
>> (#15).
>>
>> As this looks like an operational configuration, I infer that those two
>> connectors are used for ... nothing?  Test points (through series
>> resistors)?
>>
>> I see (how can one miss!) the address and data ribbon-cables.  The
>> remaining white ribbon-cables must be for the box controllers. So, that
>> looks like a 1Mw configuration.  Maybe 1.5Mw if, as you suggest, you're
>> careful?
>>
>> Agree about the missing documentation :-<.
>>
>> Thanks for the better pic-pointer; knew that I can seen those in the past
>> but couldn't recall where (and Google didn't help).
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 8:56 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It appears that the module utilization of the MKA11 is significantly
>>> different than the MK11, so it must have a much different backplane.
>>> The photo of the MKA11 only shows eight storage array modules, in
>>> slots 9-12 and 18-21, though slots 5-8 and 22-25 might also be
>>> available for storage array modules. The memory bus cabling is
>>> obviously quite cumbersome, and adding storage modules in slots 22-25
>>> looks like it could exacerbate that problem.The MK11 supports 16
>>> storage array modules in slots 2-9 and 18-25. The module assignments
>>> for the non-storage modules also appear to be different.
>>>
>>> It's a shame that the KB11-Cm and MKA11 field maintenance print sets
>>> aren't anywhere to be found. While the available 11/74 documentation
>>> offers a description of how the KB11-Cm differs from the KB11-C
>>> (mostly interlocked ASRB and cache bypass), it's a shame that we can't
>>> study the actual details of how those changes were implemented.
>>>
>>
>>
>

From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Mon Feb 16 03:42:07 2015
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:42:07 +0100
Subject: Failed ICs and components
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUxNd-SdHZMYuQ5QBdkv6OvSXYpYkja6+WuByqm4Wnmy-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUzqJyfknXR0P55-8aZikdkNZZrzJSQ=1WspOvbG-KBE2w@mail.gmail.com>	<721974d58d5f9fe9aee2adb3a23ff12c@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net>
 <CAKtEYUxNd-SdHZMYuQ5QBdkv6OvSXYpYkja6+WuByqm4Wnmy-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002a01d049cc$d4ee2fc0$7eca8f40$@xs4all.nl>

I made an inventory of the defective TTL?s I have, other than I initially though there is a reasonable spread over types and brands.

Other than the NS DM7400 there are no types with an extensive failure rate.

The list talks for itself.

 

-Rik

 


Type

HP Number 1820-

Quantity

Brand

CER

Date

						

7495AN

	1

Siemens

	7417


8H08/74H08

	1

??

	PCF7427


93L00PC

	1

		7302


9N03/7403

	1

Fairchild

	7328


DM7400N

	14

National Semiconductor

	352,422,424,401,351,435,315,215


DM7403N

	4

National Semiconductor

	315


DM7404N

	5

National Semiconductor

	317,315


DM7408N

	2

National Semiconductor

	307


DM7410N

	2

National Semiconductor

	308,217


DM74121N

	6

National Semiconductor

	313,315,314


DM74195N

	1

National Semiconductor

	241


DM7420N

	1

National Semiconductor

	211


DM7432N

	2

National Semiconductor

	314,413


DM7474N

	5

National Semiconductor

	435,349


DM7493N

	1

Texas Instruments

	7252


DM7495N

	2

National Semiconductor

	242,241


DM74H00N

	1

National Semiconductor

	334


DM74H08N

	1

National Semiconductor

	229


DM74L00N

	1

National Semiconductor

	337


DM74L04N

	3

National Semiconductor

	313,351


DM74L10N

	1

National Semiconductor

	423


DM74L74N

	1

National Semiconductor

	316


DM74L86N

	1

National Semiconductor

	317


DM74LS373N

	1

National Semiconductor

	8005


N8885A

	1

Signetics

	7402


N8T20N

1048

1

Signetics

	7915


SN7400J

	1

Texas Instruments

	7313


SN7400N

	2

Texas Instruments

	7405,7335


SN7402N

	1

Texas Instruments

	AS7419


SN7404N

	3

Texas Instruments

	7344,7402,AS7406


SN7406N

0471

1

Texas Instruments

	8044S


SN7407N

0668

2

Texas Instruments

	H7845,AS7414


SN74107N

	2

Texas Instruments

	7945B,7414


SN74121J

	1

Texas Instruments

X

7326


SN74123N

0579

4

Texas Instruments

	7406,8014


SN74155N

	2

Texas Instruments

	7222


SN7416N

	1

Texas Instruments

	AHA741


SN74191N

	1

Texas Instruments

	M7628


SN74193N

	3

Texas Instruments

	FF7606,FF7536


SN74193N

	1

Texas Instruments

	7516


SN7451N

	1

Texas Instruments

	7427


SN7474N

	1

Texas Instruments

	7339


SN7475N

	1

Texas Instruments

	7349


SN7493AN

	1

Texas Instruments

	7235


SN7493AN

	1

Texas Instruments

	AS7344


SN7495AN

	4

Texas Instruments

	BS7402,7227,7244


SN7495N

	1

Texas Instruments

	7401


SN7496N

	1

Texas Instruments

	M7331


SN74H00N

	1

Texas Instruments

	7135


SN74H01N

	1

Texas Instruments

	BS7423


SN74H01N

	1

Texas Instruments

	7252


SN74H04N

	2

Texas Instruments

	7527,AS7406


SN74H101N

	2

Texas Instruments

	7217,7336


SN74H108N

	1

Texas Instruments

	7205


SN74H40N

	1

Texas Instruments

	7510


SN74H74N

0512

1

Texas Instruments

	7419


SN74L04N

	2

National Semiconductor

	218,313


SN74L42N

	1

Texas Instruments

	7312A


SN74LS00N

	1

Texas Instruments

	M7523


SN74LS03N

	3

Texas Instruments

	7945


SN74LS08N

1201

1

Texas Instruments

	7801


SN74LS244N

	1

Texas Instruments

	8432B


SN74LS257AN

1438

1

Texas Instruments

	7927B


SN74S04N

	1

Texas Instruments

	UK7949


SN74S374N

	2

Texas Instruments

	M7919X,F9022X


7400

0054

1

Motorola

	7315


7410

0068

2

Motorola

	7245,7443


7473

0075

1

National Semiconductor

	217


7474

0077

2

National Semiconductor

	212


74H08

0141

6

National Semiconductor

	228,217,604,229,228


MC3001

0141

1

Motorola

	7326


7404

0174

1

National Semiconductor

	543


7405

0175

1

National Semiconductor

	037M


7405

0175

1

National Semiconductor

	947


MC3003 /  74H32

0205

1

Motorola

	7513


74121

0261

1

Texas Instruments

	7410


74121

0261

1

National Semiconductor

	425


7403

0269

4

National Semiconductor

	345,428


CA3028A

0306

1

National Semiconductor

	413


7402

0328

2

National Semiconductor

	527,532


7402

0328

1

Motorola

	7248


74H00

0370

1

Motorola

	7413


74H00

0370

1

Fairchild

	7237


74H40

0376

1

Motorola

	7334


74H04

0424

1

National Semiconductor

	231


7408

0511

6

Fairchild

	F7421,F7407,F7409,F7428


7413

0537

1

National Semiconductor

	533


74L00

0583

1

National Semiconductor

	521


74L02

0584

3

National Semiconductor

	222,231


74L10

0587

1

National Semiconductor

	514


74L30

0589

1

National Semiconductor

	232


74L54

0591

1

National Semiconductor

	521


74L74

0596

1

Fairchild

X

SL3459


74L86

0598

3

National Semiconductor

	405


9322PC

0616

1

Fairchild

	352


9322PC

0616

1

Fairchild

X

7221


9324PC

0706

1

Fairchild

	7735


9328PC

0741

2

Fairchild

X

7240,7309


74C175

1562

2

Signetics

	L147,B104


74C175

1562

1

National Semiconductor

	011

 

 


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: "Kyle Owen" < <mailto:kylevowen at gmail.com> kylevowen at gmail.com>
Verzonden: ?11-?2-?2015 23:57
Aan: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: Failed ICs and components


I am writing my master's thesis on accelerated life testing and would like
to get a collection of parts to decap and experiment on. What prompted my
study is a failed 7474 dual flip-flop in a PDP-8/E. As I later read (on
here, I believe) was that the 7474s seem to fail in higher number than
other 7400-series ICs. Is this because of a design flaw? I'm not sure
(yet), but would like to find out.

More recently, I saw a 680k 2W carbon resistor that read 1.3 meg out of
circuit. As it turns out, it was in a high voltage portion of the circuit,
and I suspect that electromigration caused its failure over time. Many of
you are probably already aware that carbon resistors tend to increase in
value as they age, though there are a few explanations too for that
behavior, as I understand it.

I would like to tie all of this together by researching older accelerated
life testing schemes, examine how those parts actually fared, and see how
current day models might be improved.

If anyone has a collection of dead ICs (preferably those that have died
inexplicably, and not by extreme overvoltage, for instance), I would like
to talk to you about getting a few. If they are 7474s from Texas
Instruments, ca. early 1970s, even better!

Thanks in advance,

Kyle

 


From dave at 661.org  Mon Feb 16 02:37:56 2015
From: dave at 661.org (Dave G.)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 08:37:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: DECwriter LA12 "correspondent" key
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502160834450.17542@nyx.feedle.net>


I have an LA12 that's mising the "DATA/TALK" key.  Does anyone have or 
know of a junked LA12 keyboard from which I can take that key?  Failing 
that, would a VT100 key physically fit?  How about 3D-printing the key?

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 04:07:15 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 03:07:15 -0700
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAJj77rscRgTgkeiczxnL580xW2iey8EUEe1na82Je_f67Qd13A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rvLHRO740RZiF9Lbsktn4Sr657Lckr_0-pb9CUQ2KL1Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DFA0FB.7090708@update.uu.se>
 <CAJj77ruHVivNSMthCZj5eFf+ZkZF+pHhmgMqaUh8KVfW0-te5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSAHPab=Mn8x+kixxYbi_YK1cNkFOw5tutYfas8OdDWgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rtMDd4aX584wZvfy+jfjro6pHq5A1Gmt8tw_P9iJ03idw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rsXakrgi5sTR=hGKdo-NUcQ=mr6_Od-r=7ZNsie+Dk+qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rscRgTgkeiczxnL580xW2iey8EUEe1na82Je_f67Qd13A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTT2e-LS+b03AsfKuaTvazuVdXH8Pb7-e=hHV2P=Pyv0xw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 2:28 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
> Need more experience finding Waldo, too!  I see that only C/D have the
> MKA11 in their associated-rack, so that's 1 Mw/CPU in the configuration
> seen.

Mw/CPU isn't an especially useful measure. It's an SMP systems, so
there's some total amount of memory that is shared by all CPUs. None
of it is dedicated to a single CPU, unless the memory control panels
are used to partition the system, which would typically only be done
for diagnostic purposes.  On a commonplace quad-core desktop PC, no
one talks about gigabytes of memory per CPU core, because the memory
is shared between all of the cores, the same as the normal
configuration of the 11/74.

The fact that the MKA11 boxes happen to be in the CPU C and CPU D
cabinets has nothing whatsoever to do with their being associated with
a particular CPU. They had to be in some cabinets, and those were
somewhat arbitrary chosen when the configuration was designed. Putting
one MKA11 in each CPU cabinet would have resulted in the need for much
longer ribbon cables runs for each memory bus, because the MKA11 boxes
are daisy-chained. Putting all the MKA11 boxes in close proximity
significantly reduces the overall cable lengths. This is why the 11/74
is configured with some CPUs in the left side of their cabinets, and
some in the right side, to specifically allow for two adjacent
half-cabinets to contain up to four MKA11 boxes.

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 05:39:59 2015
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 06:39:59 -0500
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTS0WEduc+yLN=zxE_bKgB1xrswtY95YL+kaXE_o-jzM7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rvLHRO740RZiF9Lbsktn4Sr657Lckr_0-pb9CUQ2KL1Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DFA0FB.7090708@update.uu.se>
 <CAJj77ruHVivNSMthCZj5eFf+ZkZF+pHhmgMqaUh8KVfW0-te5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSAHPab=Mn8x+kixxYbi_YK1cNkFOw5tutYfas8OdDWgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rtMDd4aX584wZvfy+jfjro6pHq5A1Gmt8tw_P9iJ03idw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTS0WEduc+yLN=zxE_bKgB1xrswtY95YL+kaXE_o-jzM7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJj77rve_k0prSnXBNmVTe0QMYQgrEQ3JimKOJuja_q8E5O7GQ@mail.gmail.com>

Regarding cable coloring, the fact remains that the M8159 Data Buffer has a
J5 Berg connector down over tabs E/F, whereas both the M8158 & M8159 have
their J1/2/3/4 data/address Berg connectors up over tabs A/B/C.  I'd say
that the color-differences happen to be significant in this case, but only
because they happen to align with the location of J5 :->.  Agree that
what's happening, color-wise, over the upper-tabs doesn't _seem_ to be
significant.

Since you've raised the topic of the Box Controllers, I see 16 (or 8
top-over-bottom pairs).  Isn't that enough for 4 MK11 (or MKA11)?

Note that 1170mP_Jul77_text.pdf also includes some additional MKA11
information, and improved diagrams.  Interesting comments regarding initial
consideration of developing a MP based on the 11/34.

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 3:27 AM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 1:05 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Notice the two unused connectors on the M8162 there in the middle slot
> > (#15).
> >
> > As this looks like an operational configuration, I infer that those two
> > connectors are used for ... nothing?  Test points (through series
> > resistors)?
> >
> > I see (how can one miss!) the address and data ribbon-cables.  The
> > remaining white ribbon-cables must be for the box controllers. So, that
> > looks like a 1Mw configuration.  Maybe 1.5Mw if, as you suggest, you're
> > careful?
>
> It appears to me that the off-white or light-grey cables are address
> and data cables, just as the grey ones, and the color was simply what
> was available at the time, or from a different cable vendor. The other
> boxes show different mixes of shades of gray for their cables.
>
> I believe that the molex connectors on the card in slot 15 are for the
> control box, and were either removed for the photograph, or were not
> necessary for the operation of the machine.  Note that CPU A and B do
> not have fully populated memory control panels, which suggests that
> the memory control panel wasn't strictly necessary for machine
> operation, though obviously very desirable for diagnostic purposes.  I
> don't really know, but if I'd designed the MKA11, I would have
> designed it so that without the controller connected, all ports are
> enabled.
>

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Feb 16 07:57:50 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 07:57:50 -0600
Subject: looking for hp rack panel
Message-ID: <000101d049f0$8dc9b690$a95d23b0$@classiccmp.org>

I have an older (dark grey) HP rack that has a front door on it. The top
2/3rds of the door is closed off metal (dark cream color). The bottom 1/3rd
is a dark brown/grey plastic vent. In the area that is vented, I'm missing
one of the vent/slotted panels to fully close it off. I used to have a 7900A
drive sticking through this opening, but no more (not in the current
configuration being built).

 

I'm building a machine to (hopefully) take to a VCF show, and would like to
obtain another one of those vent panels to properly fill up the opening.
Ideally, I'd like to buy/trade for one of those panels and keep it. But if
you have one that you don't want to let go of, I'd at least like to borrow
it for a few months for the show and then could return it.

 

Does anyone have one of these plastic vent panels?

 

Best,

 

J


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Feb 16 08:09:20 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 08:09:20 -0600
Subject: hp 7970E mag tape mounting
Message-ID: <000601d049f2$28e3dec0$7aab9c40$@classiccmp.org>

My HP 7970E mounting bracket is at the fabricator, so hopefully copies will
be ready soon. I'll keep the folks posted that asked for a bracket. That
means if anyone wanted a mounting bracket but didn't respond to my earlier
post, you need to let me know by end of day today. It is unlikely that
another run will be done in the future.

 

Separately - on the other side of the 7970E tape chassis are three metal
shims. They are normally attached with glue to the back lip of the chassis
edge where it mounts to the rack on the right side. I have noticed over time
that on some drives one or more of these shims have come off and been lost.

 

Another listmember (THANK YOU) fabricated a few of these shims. If you need
these, I have a few extra that are available for the cost of mailing (aka
$0.00). Once I run out of those few, perhaps the listmember that fabricated
them would be willing to make a few more if there is a need.

 

Best,

 

J


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 16 08:14:50 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 09:14:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
Message-ID: <20150216141450.9E47118C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Paul Birkel

    > Note that 1170mP_Jul77_text.pdf also includes some additional MKA11
    > information, and improved diagrams. 

Umm, where is that? I just looked, couldn't find it online? (Clearly my
Google-fu is pretty weak... :-)

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 16 08:30:50 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 09:30:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
Message-ID: <20150216143050.498E518C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > Umm, where is that? I just looked, couldn't find it online?

Oops, never mind; for some reason Google barfed on the '_'.

	Noel

From mattislind at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 09:12:37 2015
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 16:12:37 +0100
Subject: HP250
Message-ID: <CABr82SLTrQfkREjoGp1eoa61TQMZu03fHHK0KOB9dDYGQZftmg@mail.gmail.com>

On Ebay I found this HP250:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/fur-Kenner-HP-250-Computer-Rechnersystem-ca-1980-komplett-ohne-Drucker-/171679870322

Looks like it is in good shape. The design is interesting with the keyboard
integrated in the desk.

Maybe something for someone in Germany to pickup?

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Feb 16 07:52:52 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 07:52:52 -0600
Subject: TSX Plus...
In-Reply-To: <CA+oaVqyGs6OXcMs6NX_cRc_Qix8+xq1bm4eyyF7gM_=-1vQxBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20140303201107.78bb62b2@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <CAMDAk4cU6+o2YOnRB=w=LCYHjG2aFEH-N9JKNCtKpf-iXb8aCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+oaVqyGs6OXcMs6NX_cRc_Qix8+xq1bm4eyyF7gM_=-1vQxBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d049ef$dc4cb390$94e61ab0$@classiccmp.org>

If something didn't happen on this shortly, I was going to contact S&H and spearhead it. Glad to see some progress is being made!

So yes, I'm interested as well!

Best,

J

-----Original Message-----
From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Carpenter
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2015 2:57 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: TSX Plus...

On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Earl Evans <earl at retrobits.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Lyle Bickley 
> <lbickley at bickleywest.com>
> wrote:
>
>> After stating that I expected TSX Plus to be available generally to 
>> the collector community this week, I have had a number of folks 
>> request access to TSX plus via private FTP.
>>
>> Please be a bit patient and wait for me to post it to a new website 
>> I'm in the process of creating. I now have full agreement from S&H to 
>> generally release TSX Plus, COBOL, etc., to the collector community 
>> via a simple download.
>>
>
> After a bit of a hiatus with the PDP-11, I'm getting back into it.
> Wondering if there's any update on this? Would be great to see the TSX 
> Plus bits and documentation you've collected, especially considering 
> your work with S&H to pave the way.
>


I am also very interested in this.

Jim



From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Feb 16 09:22:40 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:22:40 -0500
Subject: TSX Plus...
In-Reply-To: <CAMDAk4cU6+o2YOnRB=w=LCYHjG2aFEH-N9JKNCtKpf-iXb8aCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20140303201107.78bb62b2@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <CAMDAk4cU6+o2YOnRB=w=LCYHjG2aFEH-N9JKNCtKpf-iXb8aCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E20B40.5040906@compsys.to>

 >Earl Evans wrote:

>>On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com>
>wrote:
>
>>After stating that I expected TSX Plus to be available generally to the
>>collector community this week, I have had a number of folks request
>>access to TSX plus via private FTP.
>>
>>Please be a bit patient and wait for me to post it to a new website I'm
>>in the process of creating. I now have full agreement from S&H to
>>generally release TSX Plus, COBOL, etc., to the collector community via
>>a simple download.
>>
>After a bit of a hiatus with the PDP-11, I'm getting back into it.
>Wondering if there's any update on this? Would be great to see the TSX Plus
>bits and documentation you've collected, especially considering your work
>with S&H to pave the way.
>
Since TSX-Plus and RT-11 are closely related, I am also interested.

I am curious. Will V6.05 of the binary distribution be made available?

Will any version of the commented source code be made available?
The last time there was any mention of the commented source code
files, I understand they had been OCRd, but not converted to text
acceptable to MACRO-11.  Has this status changed?  Also, I seem
to remember that the commented source code files were from V6.03,
not form V6.05 of TSX-Plus.  Has that status changed?

Jerome Fine

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Feb 16 10:12:56 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 17:12:56 +0100
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTcr5hWpHE=gtQjmePAsisECdRgGR+wr_p+gX4SqJ+W-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rvLHRO740RZiF9Lbsktn4Sr657Lckr_0-pb9CUQ2KL1Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DFA0FB.7090708@update.uu.se>
 <CAJj77ruHVivNSMthCZj5eFf+ZkZF+pHhmgMqaUh8KVfW0-te5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSAHPab=Mn8x+kixxYbi_YK1cNkFOw5tutYfas8OdDWgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rtMDd4aX584wZvfy+jfjro6pHq5A1Gmt8tw_P9iJ03idw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rsXakrgi5sTR=hGKdo-NUcQ=mr6_Od-r=7ZNsie+Dk+qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTTcr5hWpHE=gtQjmePAsisECdRgGR+wr_p+gX4SqJ+W-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E21708.7080404@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-16 09:42, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 1:23 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ah.  I need to count better.  There are *two* MKA11 per CPU, thus each only
>> *needs* just a 1 Mw configuration due to address-space limitations.
>
> I don't think so. The system shown in the photos has four CPUs, and
> four MKA11 boxes.  The MKA11 boxes are located in the right half of
> the cabinet housing CPU C, and the left half of the cabinet housing
> CPU D.  There's no evidence in the photos of there being any more
> MKA11 boxes other than those.  For instance, the right half of the
> cabinet housing CPU B clearly contains no MKA11 boxes, but rather what
> appear to be Unibus expansion boxes.  Only one photo shows the the
> right half of the cabinet housing CPU A open, and the view is
> partially obstructed by the CPU being extended out on its rails, but
> it definitely does not appear to have any MKA11 boxes either.

Agree.

> If each MKA11 box has eight MS11-KE storage array modules (M7984),
> that is 256KW per MKA11, for 1MW total. While that's only just over
> half of the physical memory address space of the CPUs (1920KW, because
> the top 128KW is reserved for the Unibus address space), that seems
> like a very plausible real-world system configuration.

Box 0 and 2 are clearly setup to be interleaved with each other, and 
both have a 0 starting address, is is located in the cabinet holding CPC.
I wish I could read out what the thumbwheel switches on box 1 and 3 are 
set to in the cabinet holding CPD, as that would tell us how much memory 
are in each box.
But I would have expected the boxes to hold close 512KW per box. With 
the 128KW modules, that would be easy to reach.

	Johnny


From js at cimmeri.com  Mon Feb 16 10:15:49 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 11:15:49 -0500
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>,
 <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>



On 2/15/2015 5:24 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> I have checked the ESR on all the electrolytics, they are all fine. Prior to
> all this I had replaced C439 with a higher voltage rated component, as
> recommended here: https://trmm.net/VT100. I used a 100uF part, rated at
> 100V. I had also replaced C437 as that had a high ESR prior to seeing this
> problem.
>
> Is there anything else I should check?

ESR alone is not enough to validate 
capacitors.

- J.


From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Feb 16 10:23:40 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 17:23:40 +0100
Subject: DEC MKA11 and/or M8261/M8163
In-Reply-To: <CAJj77rscRgTgkeiczxnL580xW2iey8EUEe1na82Je_f67Qd13A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJj77rtF58kAtU-8BfHL8JHNJ1bsjFnq3ap1fnjm+YjeBh-j=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT1T7bM1DyAw2-gvub2eb_eQ3uAPMp3WskV3HGJKvZX3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rvLHRO740RZiF9Lbsktn4Sr657Lckr_0-pb9CUQ2KL1Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54DFA0FB.7090708@update.uu.se>
 <CAJj77ruHVivNSMthCZj5eFf+ZkZF+pHhmgMqaUh8KVfW0-te5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSAHPab=Mn8x+kixxYbi_YK1cNkFOw5tutYfas8OdDWgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rtMDd4aX584wZvfy+jfjro6pHq5A1Gmt8tw_P9iJ03idw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rsXakrgi5sTR=hGKdo-NUcQ=mr6_Od-r=7ZNsie+Dk+qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJj77rscRgTgkeiczxnL580xW2iey8EUEe1na82Je_f67Qd13A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E2198C.7020802@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-16 10:28, Paul Birkel wrote:
> Need more experience finding Waldo, too!  I see that only C/D have the
> MKA11 in their associated-rack, so that's 1 Mw/CPU in the configuration
> seen.

It don't make sense to talk about the memory as per CPU, since it is 
shared between all CPUs...

> What's going on in the A/B associated racks?  I see what appear to be three
> BA11-L chassis (lower-A; upper- & lower-B).  And then a non-standard
> forward-facing vertical-orientation quad-height(?) module-cage in mid-B
> (any ideas as to what that might be; the bit of backplane visible to the
> left looks more like something QBus-era)?  Finally there's the large blank
> cover in upper-A ...
>
> What role might the 11/44(?) have played (really fancy serial-console)?
> Looks rather aged in appearance; surprising.

The serial consoles are the four LA120 in front of the system. Each CPU 
has its own console.

What 11/44 are you looking at?

> Would those have been MASSBUS drives in that 4-wide rack-set (perhaps
> hidden behind the lower panels; not sure about the row immediately above
> that, but the two to the upper-right appear to be RL02)?

Oh, are you talking about the two double-width cabinets to the side?
Right cabinet definitely holds two RL02 (or possibly RL01) along with 
two Unibux expansion boxes, from the look of it.

The left one is more tricky. Looks like two Unibus boxes there as well.

Top right, I would guess, is a DT07, which is a Unibus switch.
Top left is perhaps what you referred to as an 11/44. Not sure what it 
is. I don't think it's an 11/44, or any other CPU. Possibly another 
Unibus box. Below is a TK50, though.

Not sure what is below the DT07 either. Might be more parts of the DT07, 
or something unrelated.

I don't think there is anything behind the panels, but either way, there 
are no massbus drives there. Those require more space, and access.

	Johnny


>
>
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 3:23 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ah.  I need to count better.  There are *two* MKA11 per CPU, thus each
>> only *needs* just a 1 Mw configuration due to address-space limitations.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 3:05 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Notice the two unused connectors on the M8162 there in the middle slot
>>> (#15).
>>>
>>> As this looks like an operational configuration, I infer that those two
>>> connectors are used for ... nothing?  Test points (through series
>>> resistors)?
>>>
>>> I see (how can one miss!) the address and data ribbon-cables.  The
>>> remaining white ribbon-cables must be for the box controllers. So, that
>>> looks like a 1Mw configuration.  Maybe 1.5Mw if, as you suggest, you're
>>> careful?
>>>
>>> Agree about the missing documentation :-<.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the better pic-pointer; knew that I can seen those in the past
>>> but couldn't recall where (and Google didn't help).
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 8:56 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It appears that the module utilization of the MKA11 is significantly
>>>> different than the MK11, so it must have a much different backplane.
>>>> The photo of the MKA11 only shows eight storage array modules, in
>>>> slots 9-12 and 18-21, though slots 5-8 and 22-25 might also be
>>>> available for storage array modules. The memory bus cabling is
>>>> obviously quite cumbersome, and adding storage modules in slots 22-25
>>>> looks like it could exacerbate that problem.The MK11 supports 16
>>>> storage array modules in slots 2-9 and 18-25. The module assignments
>>>> for the non-storage modules also appear to be different.
>>>>
>>>> It's a shame that the KB11-Cm and MKA11 field maintenance print sets
>>>> aren't anywhere to be found. While the available 11/74 documentation
>>>> offers a description of how the KB11-Cm differs from the KB11-C
>>>> (mostly interlocked ASRB and cache bypass), it's a shame that we can't
>>>> study the actual details of how those changes were implemented.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>


From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon Feb 16 10:32:18 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:32:18 -0600
Subject: hp 7970E mag tape mounting
In-Reply-To: <000601d049f2$28e3dec0$7aab9c40$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000601d049f2$28e3dec0$7aab9c40$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <54E21B92.9070406@pico-systems.com>

On 02/16/2015 08:09 AM, Jay West wrote:
Jay, you had mentioned something about getting together and 
showing off
our collections.  I was out of town, and when I got back, I 
emailed you
directly several times, but got no response.  (Probably got 
filtered.)

If you are still interested, let me know.

Jon

From mgariboldi at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 11:15:40 2015
From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (MG)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 18:15:40 +0100
Subject: WTB/WTT: SGI O2 and =?windows-1252?Q?Indigo=B2_items?=
Message-ID: <54E225BC.7070709@gmail.com>

Hello,

As of late I've been looking for the following parts for the following SGI
systems:

     - SGI Indigo?
         o    video-graphics flat/flexcables (very important, need it);
         o    IMPACT Video break-out cable;
         o    IMPACT Video stand-offs (10);
         o    IMPACT pull straps (3 sets, but 'just' 2 for HighIMPACT is 
also
                                                  fine for me);
         o    IMPACT Video screws (10 also, but not as important);
         o    IMPACT "Digital Media CD" (... or if someone could tell me
what's on there).

     - SGI O2
         o    blue optical (i.e. CD-ROM) drive bezel;
         o    black top lid;
         o    two or three disk sleds/brackets;
         o    analog A/V (AV1) module (not too important).


Interested to buy, but I have items to trade (compatible in/for SGI
O3000-series, for instance; like 10-Gbit Ethernet NICs).

Lastly, I'm located in the Netherlands.  Thanks in advance.



Kind regards,

Marco


From derschjo at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 12:02:34 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:02:34 -0800
Subject: Tadpole Sparcbook 2 OS media...
In-Reply-To: <CAPLeS_q6EZQnPT54n6vvT3TX5OHgNMUEafxMmPg5AqEZxPhHEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E01680.3080000@gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfCKsmS8g6c+mx9LuVrNaa_Y6kJgzMVkJqZZFa-yRZLbKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHWeqPrJu0AUv3DMFZDuybrgQ2NH4ctTS1NZZfsJUeDLKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E0D8A2.2000802@gmail.com>
 <CAPLeS_q6EZQnPT54n6vvT3TX5OHgNMUEafxMmPg5AqEZxPhHEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E230BA.4050002@gmail.com>

On 2/16/2015 12:18 AM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote:
> My tadpole sparcbook 2 is running  4.1.3 happily.
>
> Regards,
> Plamen

Was that installed from standard Sun distribution media?

Thanks,
Josh

>
> On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 7:34 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, but I think Solaris 2.5 is much too new for the Sparcbook 2 (and I
>> believe that the stock Sun versions of earlier versions (like SunOS 4.1.3)
>> are incompatible as well -- it's been awhile since I last tried but I don't
>> think the stock kernel will boot).
>>
>> If anyone knows differently, let me know...
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Josh
>>
>>
>> On 2/15/2015 1:47 AM, Mark Wickens wrote:
>>
>>> I have Solaris 2.5 media and a backup of the tadpole ftp site which I will
>>> get round to putting online at some point soon. Keep pestering in the
>>> meantime  - feel free to send me private mail.
>>>
>>> Mark.
>>>
>>> On 15 February 2015 at 04:20, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>   I have SunOS 4.1.3, still in the shrink wrap, if that helps.  Will have
>>>> to
>>>> dig...
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:46 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   Kind of a long shot, but hey.  I've had this trusty old Sparcbook 2 for
>>>>> awhile now and I never did manage to track down any OS media for it.
>>>>>
>>>> It's
>>>>
>>>>> currently running a variant of SunOS 4.1.2 and the old 2.5" SCSI drives
>>>>> (plural) are still holding out, but I'd like to be able to revive it
>>>>> when
>>>>> they finally do go to silicon heaven.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone have anything for these machines?  These are significantly
>>>>> different from the later Sparcbooks (which are considerably more
>>>>> Sun-compatible, hardware wise)...
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>> Josh
>>>>>
>>>>>


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Feb 16 13:29:12 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:29:12 +0000
Subject: PERQ
In-Reply-To: <54E1066E.7050804@snarc.net>
References: <54DE737F.2010908@snarc.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B4595@EXMBX16.thus.corp>,
 <54E1066E.7050804@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B473B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>

> 
> Thanks Tony.
> 
> John D. emailed me and said he knows someone here in the US who might
> have spares that we can borrow. I'll let you know how that goes (off-list).

That will be useful for testing, but presumably you will want to have something
of your own to keep on running the machine. By then I might have found all my
PERQ 1 bits (I did unpack the PERQ 2 keyboard, PERQ 3A mouse and all the 
cabling today - NEVER move house unless you have to!) so will be able to 
provide wirelists of the cabling, etc.

-tony

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 16 13:47:46 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 14:47:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11/23+ Console cables
Message-ID: <20150216194746.815D018C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

This may be common knowledge here, but I was unaware of it (and, AFAIK, the
DEC documentation doesn't point this out), so here goes...

It turns out one doesn't need the fancy cab-kit to connect up to an 11/23+'s
console. The headers on the card are completely compatible with standard
DLV11-J connectors, and a DLV11-J cable can be used to connect up to an
11/23+ card. (One has to select the desired baud rate with the DIP switches
on the card, of course.) I have verified this by trying it, and it worked.

The cabkits merely allow one to select the baud rate at the console connector
(via a clock generator on the cabkit, and the 'external clock' input on the
serial interface). This implies that one should be able to plug a cabkit into
an appropriately configured DLV11-J (external serial clock select), and
select the baud rate via the switch on the cabkit. I haven't tried that,
though.

	Noel

From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 13:59:57 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 13:59:57 -0600
Subject: 11/23+ Console cables
In-Reply-To: <20150216194746.815D018C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150216194746.815D018C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <D5AB0726-F200-4FF1-BCE9-61E72CA9F1AA@gmail.com>



> On Feb 16, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 


> 
> The cabkits merely allow one to select the baud rate at the console connector
> (via a clock generator on the cabkit, and the 'external clock' input on the
> serial interface).

Really?  I always assumed the rotary switches just replaced the 4 bits from the dipswitch.

Where can I find a schematic?



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon Feb 16 14:38:19 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:38:19 -0000
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>,
 <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com> <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> js at cimmeri.com
> Sent: 16 February 2015 16:16
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
> 
> 
> 
> On 2/15/2015 5:24 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> > I have checked the ESR on all the electrolytics, they are all fine.
> > Prior to all this I had replaced C439 with a higher voltage rated
> > component, as recommended here: https://trmm.net/VT100. I used a 100uF
> > part, rated at 100V. I had also replaced C437 as that had a high ESR
> > prior to seeing this problem.
> >
> > Is there anything else I should check?
> 
> ESR alone is not enough to validate
> capacitors.
> 


What other tests would you suggest? I do have a capacitance meter to check
values. I would have desolder them of course. Would you test just the
electrolytics or all of them? I don't have an insulation tester though. Any
other tests?

Regards

Rob


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 16 14:53:58 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 15:53:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11/23+ Console cables
Message-ID: <20150216205358.2CEA918C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Roe Peterson

    > Really?

Really! :-)

I can see a crystal on the cabkit, and if you look at the interface spec
('Microcomputers and Memories', 1982, pg. 628), it's clear it must use the
External Clock for the baud rate to be switch selectable on the cabkit.

    > I always assumed the rotary switches just replaced the 4 bits from the
    > dipswitch.

That is the case for the KDJ11-B, which is why I assumed the same thing was
the situation with the 11/23+. But it's not...

    > Where can I find a schematic?

Good question. I would assume in the 11/23+ print set, but I looked there, and
couldn't find it. Maybe that print set (MP01236) is just for the CPU board
itself, and there's some other print set for the larger system, including the
cables, but I can't immediately think what I should look for.

FWIW, the part number for the cabkit is 54-15422-01.

(I think the 54- prefix means 'assembly', but I'm not sure. I should collect
a list of all the DEC part prefixes - I looked, but there doesn't seem to be
one.)

	Noel

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb 16 14:55:19 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 12:55:19 -0800
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>,
 <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com> <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
 <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <54E25937.7070401@sydex.com>

On 02/16/2015 12:38 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:


> What other tests would you suggest? I do have a capacitance meter to check
> values. I would have desolder them of course. Would you test just the
> electrolytics or all of them? I don't have an insulation tester though. Any
> other tests?

Start with the largest electrolytics.  Also, check any power 
resistors--they sometimes do fail.

--Chuck



From js at cimmeri.com  Mon Feb 16 16:34:54 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 17:34:54 -0500
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>,
 <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com> <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
 <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <54E2708E.5030809@cimmeri.com>



On 2/16/2015 3:38 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
>>> I have checked the ESR on all the electrolytics, they are all fine.
>>> Prior to all this I had replaced C439 with a higher voltage rated
>>> component, as recommended here: https://trmm.net/VT100. I used a 100uF
>>> part, rated at 100V. I had also replaced C437 as that had a high ESR
>>> prior to seeing this problem.
>>>
>>> Is there anything else I should check?
>> ESR alone is not enough to validate
>> capacitors.
>>
>
> What other tests would you suggest? I do have a capacitance meter to check
> values. I would have desolder them of course. Would you test just the
> electrolytics or all of them? I don't have an insulation tester though. Any
> other tests?
>
> Regards
>
> Rob


GIGO!     Send a photo of the board in ? 
for more involved comments.

- J.


From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon Feb 16 18:48:03 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 18:48:03 -0600
Subject: CompuServe posts within posts?
In-Reply-To: <54E2708E.5030809@cimmeri.com>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com>
 <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net> <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net>
 <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>
 <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
 <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com>
 <54E2708E.5030809@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.29.1424135228.1134.cctalk@classiccmp.org>


I have mentioned that I kept my transcripts of my CompuServe surfing.  
I keep thinking about how I might adapt them to a web version to 
recreate forums.

I'm thinking about how to parse the posts.  I'm no doubt overthinking
for a rare case, but does anyone remember how CIS handled or allowed
quoting a post within a post?  Posts looked like:

  #: 23540 S7/Programming
      20-Jun-86  02:40:20
  Sb: #23526-MenuEd
  Fm: Larry Phillips/ICUG 74025,636
  To: David Milligan 70707,2521

  One other thing I might add. It would be SUPER if those writing editors for
  gadgets, et al, if they allowed output in assembler code for those of us who
  never passed our Cryptanalysis 101 course.

Did CIS reject quoting posts within posts, if only to prevent spoofing?

- John


From matt at 9track.net  Mon Feb 16 19:31:27 2015
From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 01:31:27 +0000
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>,
 <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com> <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
 <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <54E299EF.7010906@9track.net>

On 16/02/2015 20:38, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> What other tests would you suggest? I do have a capacitance meter to check
> values. I would have desolder them of course. Would you test just the
> electrolytics or all of them? I don't have an insulation tester though. Any
> other tests?
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>

Check the leakage current using a bench supply (same setup as reforming)
- particularly C321. Leakage here may be causing a DC offset to be
applied to the vertical yoke. If you have no luck here then have a look
at the schematics for the Elston/Digital monitor board in MP00633 or
similar. Expected waveforms are given for some points in the circuit.
Using a scope you may be able to work out where the wobble is coming from.

Matt

From mokuba at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 19:31:46 2015
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:31:46 -0500
Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh4VgCmBRJg21HnngJZ+kn6hYHMdpYb524+sSyKiEMnCcA@mail.gmail.com>

Got a hard down situation and need to re-install/recreate the BBS system I
had running.

HDD makes swishy noises when shaken, haven't tried stirring yet.

I /guess/ a bootable MCA SCSI card would work too... ;)

I had the 160MB drive, but anything above 30 would work - i guess i'll just
have to use a SCSI Drive for the file storage area once i get an MCA SCSI
card ....

-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG

From quapla at xs4all.nl  Tue Feb 17 01:02:26 2015
From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 08:02:26 +0100
Subject: PDP-5 & PDP-8s on display
Message-ID: <c995f52e82c1e927ed1214a528f17086.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>


Googleing for something else, I came across the museum of the Dutch
'Hoogovens' steel melting & manufacturing plant (now called Tata steel).

Apparently they have a PDP-5, a PDP-8s, a PDP-8e and a PDP-11/34 in their
collection & display. Pictures can be seen at

http://www.hoogovensmuseum.nl/collecties/computermuseum/

text is only in Dutch.

Apparently the PDP-5 was the first process-computer in the Netherlands
at that time (1965) and was used in the oxysteel division to analyse the
steel for quality & contamination using spectral analysis.

Ed

-- 
Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter.


From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Mon Feb 16 10:08:12 2015
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 08:08:12 -0800
Subject: TSX Plus...
In-Reply-To: <CA+oaVqyGs6OXcMs6NX_cRc_Qix8+xq1bm4eyyF7gM_=-1vQxBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20140303201107.78bb62b2@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <CAMDAk4cU6+o2YOnRB=w=LCYHjG2aFEH-N9JKNCtKpf-iXb8aCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+oaVqyGs6OXcMs6NX_cRc_Qix8+xq1bm4eyyF7gM_=-1vQxBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150216080812.742403a0@asrock.bcwi.net>

On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 15:56:30 -0500
Jim Carpenter <jim at deitygraveyard.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Earl Evans <earl at retrobits.com>
> wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Lyle Bickley
> > <lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote:
> >
> >> After stating that I expected TSX Plus to be available generally
> >> to the collector community this week, I have had a number of folks
> >> request access to TSX plus via private FTP.
> >>
> >> Please be a bit patient and wait for me to post it to a new
> >> website I'm in the process of creating. I now have full agreement
> >> from S&H to generally release TSX Plus, COBOL, etc., to the
> >> collector community via a simple download.
> >>
> >
> > After a bit of a hiatus with the PDP-11, I'm getting back into it.
> > Wondering if there's any update on this? Would be great to see the
> > TSX Plus bits and documentation you've collected, especially
> > considering your work with S&H to pave the way.
> >
> 
> 
> I am also very interested in this.

Sorry guys, I dropped the ball on this. I've been doing a bunch of
transitioning and ended up working on a number of other projects - and
completely forgot about TSX.

This discussion is prodding me to finish my half done website for TSX...

I apologize for the huge delay...

Lyle

-- 
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 13:28:02 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 14:28:02 -0500
Subject: TSX Plus...
In-Reply-To: <20150216080812.742403a0@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <20140303201107.78bb62b2@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <CAMDAk4cU6+o2YOnRB=w=LCYHjG2aFEH-N9JKNCtKpf-iXb8aCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+oaVqyGs6OXcMs6NX_cRc_Qix8+xq1bm4eyyF7gM_=-1vQxBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150216080812.742403a0@asrock.bcwi.net>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfD5-c5TUXSLLC8kSf=HwWq8AoNZ4BHOdvHPS+b5dvphZg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Lyle,
 No sweat, don't want to be pushy, but I'm excited about getting this onto
my 11/34, too!  If there's anything I can do to help move the site progress
along or anything else, please let me know.

thx
--jake

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com>
wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 15:56:30 -0500
> Jim Carpenter <jim at deitygraveyard.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Earl Evans <earl at retrobits.com>
> > wrote:
> > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Lyle Bickley
> > > <lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> After stating that I expected TSX Plus to be available generally
> > >> to the collector community this week, I have had a number of folks
> > >> request access to TSX plus via private FTP.
> > >>
> > >> Please be a bit patient and wait for me to post it to a new
> > >> website I'm in the process of creating. I now have full agreement
> > >> from S&H to generally release TSX Plus, COBOL, etc., to the
> > >> collector community via a simple download.
> > >>
> > >
> > > After a bit of a hiatus with the PDP-11, I'm getting back into it.
> > > Wondering if there's any update on this? Would be great to see the
> > > TSX Plus bits and documentation you've collected, especially
> > > considering your work with S&H to pave the way.
> > >
> >
> >
> > I am also very interested in this.
>
> Sorry guys, I dropped the ball on this. I've been doing a bunch of
> transitioning and ended up working on a number of other projects - and
> completely forgot about TSX.
>
> This discussion is prodding me to finish my half done website for TSX...
>
> I apologize for the huge delay...
>
> Lyle
>
> --
> Bickley Consulting West Inc.
> http://bickleywest.com
>
> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
>

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Feb 16 13:42:53 2015
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 11:42:53 -0800
Subject: TSX Plus...
In-Reply-To: <20150216080812.742403a0@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <20140303201107.78bb62b2@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <CAMDAk4cU6+o2YOnRB=w=LCYHjG2aFEH-N9JKNCtKpf-iXb8aCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+oaVqyGs6OXcMs6NX_cRc_Qix8+xq1bm4eyyF7gM_=-1vQxBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150216080812.742403a0@asrock.bcwi.net>
Message-ID: <EEBC6CEB-4FCD-4B7D-B509-BF3B35C65A53@aracnet.com>


On Feb 16, 2015, at 8:08 AM, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote:

> Sorry guys, I dropped the ball on this. I've been doing a bunch of
> transitioning and ended up working on a number of other projects - and
> completely forgot about TSX.
> 
> This discussion is prodding me to finish my half done website for TSX...
> 
> I apologize for the huge delay...
> 
> Lyle

Laughing.  Something tells me most of us here know that problem all too well, in fact I'd forgotten just how close you were, specifically for this reason! :-)

Zane




From p.gebhardt at ymail.com  Tue Feb 17 04:02:53 2015
From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:02:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: PDP-5 & PDP-8s on display
In-Reply-To: <c995f52e82c1e927ed1214a528f17086.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
References: <c995f52e82c1e927ed1214a528f17086.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <167111998.9130765.1424167373218.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Nice!
Thanks for sharing with us :)

Cheers,
Pierre

 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de


----- Urspr?ngliche Message -----
> Von: E. Groenenberg <quapla at xs4all.nl>
> An: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> CC: 
> Gesendet: 7:02 Dienstag, 17.Februar 2015
> Betreff: PDP-5 & PDP-8s on display
> 
> 
> Googleing for something else, I came across the museum of the Dutch
> 'Hoogovens' steel melting & manufacturing plant (now called Tata 
> steel).
> 
> Apparently they have a PDP-5, a PDP-8s, a PDP-8e and a PDP-11/34 in their
> collection & display. Pictures can be seen at
> 
> http://www.hoogovensmuseum.nl/collecties/computermuseum/
> 
> text is only in Dutch.
> 
> Apparently the PDP-5 was the first process-computer in the Netherlands
> at that time (1965) and was used in the oxysteel division to analyse the
> steel for quality & contamination using spectral analysis.
> 
> Ed
> 
> -- 
> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
> Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter.
>

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Tue Feb 17 04:47:55 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 11:47:55 +0100
Subject: PDP-5 & PDP-8s on display
In-Reply-To: <c995f52e82c1e927ed1214a528f17086.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
References: <c995f52e82c1e927ed1214a528f17086.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <20150217104755.GD27228@Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 08:02:26AM +0100, E. Groenenberg wrote:
> 
> Googleing for something else, I came across the museum of the Dutch
> 'Hoogovens' steel melting & manufacturing plant (now called Tata steel).
> 
> Apparently they have a PDP-5, a PDP-8s, a PDP-8e and a PDP-11/34 in their
> collection & display. Pictures can be seen at
> 
> http://www.hoogovensmuseum.nl/collecties/computermuseum/
> 
> text is only in Dutch.
> 
> Apparently the PDP-5 was the first process-computer in the Netherlands
> at that time (1965) and was used in the oxysteel division to analyse the
> steel for quality & contamination using spectral analysis.

Nice to see another -5 and -8/s that has survived :)

Can't be much more than five PDP-5 systems left.

/P

From fulivi at tiscali.it  Tue Feb 17 08:19:07 2015
From: fulivi at tiscali.it (F.Ulivi)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 15:19:07 +0100
Subject: ROM dumps of Intel MDS-2 IOC
Message-ID: <54E34DDB.8070001@tiscali.it>

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for the images of ROMs installed on the IOC (I/O controller)
board of Intel MDS-2 development systems. In particular I'm looking for
the content of the character generator ROM (A19-2708) and of firmware
ROMs (A50 to A53-4x2716). So far I had no success in googling them.
My goal would be to contribute a good emulation of MDS systems to MESS,
especially for what regards the look of the video terminal. Well, this
is the plan, when "real-life" is not inteferring too much...

Thanks a lot.

-- F.Ulivi

From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com  Tue Feb 17 08:44:07 2015
From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 08:44:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Multi-node BBS'
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>


Gary's pulling up a BBS pushed me onto a wave of nostalgia so I've been
digging through my old DOS archives of BBS software and the like that I
picked up years ago and I came to a question.

How did people set up multi-node BBS' back in the day?

I know you could run something like Desqview and run multiple copies on a
single system, and some BBS' (like TBBS) had built-in multitasking so it
handled multiple modems. And, of course, you could get fancy and run a
Novell network. Were there other ways of doing this?

I also saw a random mention of multi-node Commodore BBS'. Given Commodores
didn't network or multi-task, I'm curious if the author of the note was
mistaken, or if such things existed -- and then how did they work?

My thanks for helping with my flashback;

 - JP



From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Tue Feb 17 08:46:47 2015
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:46:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Multi-node BBS'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502170943010.51795@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, JP Hindin wrote:

> How did people set up multi-node BBS' back in the day?
>
> I know you could run something like Desqview and run multiple copies on a
> single system, and some BBS' (like TBBS) had built-in multitasking so it
> handled multiple modems. And, of course, you could get fancy and run a
> Novell network. Were there other ways of doing this?

    Yes, on a real multi-tasking OS.  A friend of mine and I ran a 
home-grown BBS on a Tandy 6000HD running Xenix for a couple of years 
starting in 1986 in Sumner, WA.  Four 1200bps modems plus the console 
allowed 5 of us to be on at the same time.  It was primarily a message 
system (room-based), with a real-time chat facility.


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com  Tue Feb 17 09:16:06 2015
From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:16:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Multi-node BBS'
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502170943010.51795@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170914330.20548-100000@localhost>



On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, Mike Loewen wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, JP Hindin wrote:
>
> > How did people set up multi-node BBS' back in the day?
> >
> > I know you could run something like Desqview and run multiple copies on a
> > single system, and some BBS' (like TBBS) had built-in multitasking so it
> > handled multiple modems. And, of course, you could get fancy and run a
> > Novell network. Were there other ways of doing this?
>
>     Yes, on a real multi-tasking OS.  A friend of mine and I ran a
> home-grown BBS on a Tandy 6000HD running Xenix for a couple of years
> starting in 1986 in Sumner, WA.  Four 1200bps modems plus the console
> allowed 5 of us to be on at the same time.  It was primarily a message
> system (room-based), with a real-time chat facility.

<chuckles>

True, thanks Mike. I was being specific about DOS, actually - although I
didn't say so, my bad. Certainly there were... shall we say, somewhat more
advanced OS' that just simply "worked". I was more curious about what
wedges people put in place to make multi-nodes in DOS... where it really
didn't.

Thanks though!

 - JP


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Feb 17 09:16:47 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 07:16:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Multi-node BBS'
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502170943010.51795@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502170943010.51795@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502170716260.9561@deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, Mike Loewen wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, JP Hindin wrote:
>
>> How did people set up multi-node BBS' back in the day?
>> 
>> I know you could run something like Desqview and run multiple copies on a
>> single system, and some BBS' (like TBBS) had built-in multitasking so it
>> handled multiple modems. And, of course, you could get fancy and run a
>> Novell network. Were there other ways of doing this?
>
>   Yes, on a real multi-tasking OS.  A friend of mine and I ran a home-grown 
> BBS on a Tandy 6000HD running Xenix for a couple of years starting in 1986 in 
> Sumner, WA.  Four 1200bps modems plus the console allowed 5 of us to be on at 
> the same time.  It was primarily a message system (room-based), with a 
> real-time chat facility.

Citadel, FTW. :)

I miss Micro Magic.  *sigh*

g.
-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From jws at jwsss.com  Tue Feb 17 09:26:59 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 07:26:59 -0800
Subject: Multi-node BBS'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170914330.20548-100000@localhost>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170914330.20548-100000@localhost>
Message-ID: <54E35DC3.7010002@jwsss.com>


On 2/17/2015 7:16 AM, JP Hindin wrote:
>
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, Mike Loewen wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, JP Hindin wrote:
>>
>>> How did people set up multi-node BBS' back in the day?
>>>
>>> I know you could run something like Desqview and run multiple copies on a
>>> single system, and some BBS' (like TBBS) had built-in multitasking so it
>>> handled multiple modems. And, of course, you could get fancy and run a
>>> Novell network. Were there other ways of doing this?
>>      Yes, on a real multi-tasking OS.  A friend of mine and I ran a
>> home-grown BBS on a Tandy 6000HD running Xenix for a couple of years
>> starting in 1986 in Sumner, WA.  Four 1200bps modems plus the console
>> allowed 5 of us to be on at the same time.  It was primarily a message
>> system (room-based), with a real-time chat facility.
> <chuckles>
>
> True, thanks Mike. I was being specific about DOS, actually - although I
> didn't say so, my bad. Certainly there were... shall we say, somewhat more
> advanced OS' that just simply "worked". I was more curious about what
> wedges people put in place to make multi-nodes in DOS... where it really
> didn't.
>
> Thanks though!
>
>   - JP
>
>
I used windows 95 as a platform to have multiple dos sessions going with 
shared memory.  It was not for a BBS, but the same concept would have 
worked.

The original setup for one of the debugging setups we had involved 
having two systems set up in close proximity with a crossover cable 
between the COM1 ports.  One would run a debugging program on one port, 
and run our package on the other.  It was pretty nice, but was not 
convenient to duplicate at the time, and also didn't translate to being 
able to duplicated as early laptop hardware showed up.

The guys were lugging 2 laptops, and a PCI dock with our hardware around 
to customer sites to debug things.

Both systems were massive Microsoft C6 c programs running under dos.

Anyway, I realized I could run both the software in debug mode, and the 
debug client in separate windows, but still had no way other than the 
serial ports to connect them.

I modified the programs and added a small driver setup to each as an 
option to emulate a serial port, which used shared memory to communicate 
between the processes.  we had an expansion memory that was not used as 
system memory, and could be easily located, so I put a few bytes in the 
structure to create the port.

Windows 95 booted in real mode, then went protected and returned with 
real mode processor sessions, with the base mode still being the 
original Dos boot.

Windows 98 went directly into protected or big real protected mode and 
created dos sessions, so the base system was not a real mode dos 
session.  It worked in a lot of cases, but not all.  Windows 95 always 
had the original dos real mode session as the boot on the processor, so 
most everything executed by a dos session as a driver executed in that 
real mode.

If you had the ports hooked up, you could set up a session to have 
individual dos sessions running in real mode for each port.

If you used the protected bios, you had to deal with different drivers 
than the actual Dos drivers that were used prior to the windows 
multitasking being around.

I didn't get into trying any of this under Windows for Workgroups type 
NT systems, only when 95 came along did i attempt the tricks above.

HOpefully described the structure okay, as it has been a long time since 
having to deal with this.

thanks
Jim

From brain at jbrain.com  Tue Feb 17 09:36:45 2015
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:36:45 -0600
Subject: Multi-node BBS'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
Message-ID: <54E3600D.6030902@jbrain.com>

On 2/17/2015 8:44 AM, JP Hindin wrote:
> I also saw a random mention of multi-node Commodore BBS'. Given Commodores
> didn't network or multi-task, I'm curious if the author of the note was
> mistaken, or if such things existed -- and then how did they work?
>
> My thanks for helping with my flashback;
>
>   - JP
>
>
Commodore's only multi-node I know is Centipede, which can run nodes 
sharing a Lt. Kernal HDD 
(http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/ltk/history.html - 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lt._Kernal) using the multiplexer 
(http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/ltk/host_mux.htm)

I don't know if 2 nodes is the limit for Centipede, or if more are possible.



-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com


From oltmansg at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 09:48:31 2015
From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:48:31 -0600
Subject: Multi-node BBS'
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502170716260.9561@deltasoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502170943010.51795@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502170716260.9561@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <E1B2CCAA-A0A7-4783-9986-A0C34F306FE7@gmail.com>

I was a Remote Access sysop. That was a fantastic BBS system. Only ever ran it single line, but I did run it off of a windows 95 box that doubled as my personal computer and that worked quite well before the internet finally did in the BBS.   I'm sure a multi-node system would have been fine

I'd been toying with the idea of setting up RA again. Just need a fossil-socket driver... 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2015, at 9:16 AM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, Mike Loewen wrote:
>> 
>>> On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, JP Hindin wrote:
>>> 
>>> How did people set up multi-node BBS' back in the day?
>>> I know you could run something like Desqview and run multiple copies on a
>>> single system, and some BBS' (like TBBS) had built-in multitasking so it
>>> handled multiple modems. And, of course, you could get fancy and run a
>>> Novell network. Were there other ways of doing this?
>> 
>>  Yes, on a real multi-tasking OS.  A friend of mine and I ran a home-grown BBS on a Tandy 6000HD running Xenix for a couple of years starting in 1986 in Sumner, WA.  Four 1200bps modems plus the console allowed 5 of us to be on at the same time.  It was primarily a message system (room-based), with a real-time chat facility.
> 
> Citadel, FTW. :)
> 
> I miss Micro Magic.  *sigh*
> 
> g.
> -- 
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
> 
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From jason at textfiles.com  Tue Feb 17 08:59:00 2015
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 06:59:00 -0800
Subject: Multi-node BBS'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd2XE1TMph70csLdOLY4vokHK0qx+SmvkiV3EfM0E=9fLg@mail.gmail.com>

I've seen multiple implementations people used.

All these solutions either used a single machine multi-tasking, or multiple
machines sharing some resource (like a hard drive). For example, a small
number of Apple II multi-node BBSes existed, and they would simply share
the SCSI hard drive along the chain, and software mods to the BBS software
would put files on the hard drive. To some level of people this was
miraculous and to others routine. Race conditions were a little easier to
deal with.

Systems later in life like EXEC-PC or Rusty and Edie's or Channel 1 would
have one machine per seat, with a dozens or hundreds of seats. This would
usually take over a house - the Channel 1 operators moved out of their home
and into another home near the building, for example. Pictures are
available in Boardwatch and others of the Exec PC setup, as well as Rusty
n' Edie's.

Then there are UNIX BBS types as mentioned above (I'm assuming we're
sticking with modem-connected BBSes - obviously when we switched to
Internet BBSes, all bets were off). This was easier, relatively, since the
system could do a lot of the multi-tasking work. Andy Rubin (of Android
fame) ran an 8-line XENIX system called Spies in the Wire that was a
technological lark of this sort.

Desqview or Pharlap were good options for two phone lines, two modems, and
a single system, as long as you didn't tax one "side" too much.

Galacticomm's multi-line card was actually designed to be a more general
computer-to-modems interface, and the MajorBBS software was designed to be
one of multiple example programs to demonstrate it - it just happened to
take off in a big way.

So, it's one of those "of course" hacks that different people did with very
different methods.

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 6:44 AM, JP Hindin <jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com> wrote:

>
> Gary's pulling up a BBS pushed me onto a wave of nostalgia so I've been
> digging through my old DOS archives of BBS software and the like that I
> picked up years ago and I came to a question.
>
> How did people set up multi-node BBS' back in the day?
>
> I know you could run something like Desqview and run multiple copies on a
> single system, and some BBS' (like TBBS) had built-in multitasking so it
> handled multiple modems. And, of course, you could get fancy and run a
> Novell network. Were there other ways of doing this?
>
> I also saw a random mention of multi-node Commodore BBS'. Given Commodores
> didn't network or multi-task, I'm curious if the author of the note was
> mistaken, or if such things existed -- and then how did they work?
>
> My thanks for helping with my flashback;
>
>  - JP
>
>
>

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Feb 17 10:02:19 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:02:19 -0700
Subject: Multi-node BBS'
In-Reply-To: <E1B2CCAA-A0A7-4783-9986-A0C34F306FE7@gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502170943010.51795@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502170716260.9561@deltasoft.com>
 <E1B2CCAA-A0A7-4783-9986-A0C34F306FE7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E3660B.6080404@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/17/2015 8:48 AM, Geoff Oltmans wrote:
> I was a Remote Access sysop. That was a fantastic BBS system. Only
> ever ran it single line, but I did run it off of a windows 95 box
> that doubled as my personal computer and that worked quite well
> before the internet finally did in the BBS.   I'm sure a multi-node
> system would have been fine
>
> I'd been toying with the idea of setting up RA again. Just need a
> fossil-socket driver...
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>

I thought the fact that file sharing became popular is what did in
BBS. Log in and leave a message is only a few minutes. Download
some file @ 300 baud and a few hours is gone. Of course you just have
a single phone line and 50+ people a day one can never log in with
a long distance number.

Ben.





From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Tue Feb 17 10:15:52 2015
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:15:52 +0000
Subject: Multi-node BBS'
In-Reply-To: <54E3660B.6080404@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502170943010.51795@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502170716260.9561@deltasoft.com>
 <E1B2CCAA-A0A7-4783-9986-A0C34F306FE7@gmail.com>
 <54E3660B.6080404@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqGzDRhBpdKJpPgutMh3j33rfZgkaPthsOaHc8PxKQLRVg@mail.gmail.com>

The BBS The Garden of Eden in Phoenix ran on some weird custom software.
It was dual line, on Apple ][ machines, connected together by serial cable
I think...

From jason at smbfc.net  Tue Feb 17 10:25:06 2015
From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 08:25:06 -0800
Subject: Multi-node BBS'
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqGzDRhBpdKJpPgutMh3j33rfZgkaPthsOaHc8PxKQLRVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502170943010.51795@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502170716260.9561@deltasoft.com>
 <E1B2CCAA-A0A7-4783-9986-A0C34F306FE7@gmail.com>
 <54E3660B.6080404@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAEvVyqGzDRhBpdKJpPgutMh3j33rfZgkaPthsOaHc8PxKQLRVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E36B62.3080709@smbfc.net>

I just spoke with a guy who wrote and ran a popular BBS in the mid-late 
80's at Drew University, the Drew Underground.

The software was the 2am BBS, it ran initially on some number of Epson 
QX-16's, multiplexed to a single hard drive.  He had the following to 
say about it:


"Yes, I was the one that purchased and set it up sometime around 1985/6. 
It was a 70mb hard drive with an 8-port multiplexer sold by Bi-Tech. 
Came with a bunch of device drivers that required you to change some 
system settings to avoid disk caching in DOS, which could cause file 
corruption. We had to code a file locking system to prevent overwrites. 
Record locking became an OS feature later.

I think this ad is for the right device:
https://books.google.com/books?id=7wCiNAUEuAMC&pg=RA3-PA184&lpg=RA3-PA184&dq=bi-tech+multiplexer&source=bl&ots=uEC4FTUuuY&sig=QeODyBX--AtYVxaMuY0U5zbldQU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fmjjVLWzIIHagwSLtIPgCg&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=bi-tech%20multiplexer&f=false
"

Thought it an interesting data point to add to the conversation.

--Jason



On 02/17/2015 08:15 AM, John Many Jars wrote:
> The BBS The Garden of Eden in Phoenix ran on some weird custom software.
> It was dual line, on Apple ][ machines, connected together by serial cable
> I think...


From oltmansg at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 10:32:46 2015
From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:32:46 -0600
Subject: Multi-node BBS'
In-Reply-To: <54E3660B.6080404@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502170943010.51795@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502170716260.9561@deltasoft.com>
 <E1B2CCAA-A0A7-4783-9986-A0C34F306FE7@gmail.com>
 <54E3660B.6080404@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <6AA9F24A-BD5C-47CB-8FBE-B02D5F2B6671@gmail.com>

That could be part of it, but I noticed a distinct drop off in traffic when the larger information services (prodigy,  CompuServe,  aol) and local ISPs  started offering general internet access. It was a pretty sharp decline as I recall. Different areas are different though. I'm sure that another major driver was whether or not you were in a telephone exchange that had local telenet and sprintnet access.  In our area we were fortunate to have that available as a local call. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2015, at 10:02 AM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
> 
>> On 2/17/2015 8:48 AM, Geoff Oltmans wrote:
>> I was a Remote Access sysop. That was a fantastic BBS system. Only
>> ever ran it single line, but I did run it off of a windows 95 box
>> that doubled as my personal computer and that worked quite well
>> before the internet finally did in the BBS.   I'm sure a multi-node
>> system would have been fine
>> 
>> I'd been toying with the idea of setting up RA again. Just need a
>> fossil-socket driver...
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> I thought the fact that file sharing became popular is what did in
> BBS. Log in and leave a message is only a few minutes. Download
> some file @ 300 baud and a few hours is gone. Of course you just have
> a single phone line and 50+ people a day one can never log in with
> a long distance number.
> 
> Ben.
> 
> 
> 
> 

From plamenspam at afterpeople.com  Tue Feb 17 02:58:09 2015
From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:58:09 +0200
Subject: Tadpole Sparcbook 2 OS media...
In-Reply-To: <54E230BA.4050002@gmail.com>
References: <54E01680.3080000@gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfCKsmS8g6c+mx9LuVrNaa_Y6kJgzMVkJqZZFa-yRZLbKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHWeqPrJu0AUv3DMFZDuybrgQ2NH4ctTS1NZZfsJUeDLKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E0D8A2.2000802@gmail.com>
 <CAPLeS_q6EZQnPT54n6vvT3TX5OHgNMUEafxMmPg5AqEZxPhHEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E230BA.4050002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPLeS_rd4bWNj7G+me4qFdAs-sg8qCxY8bHwSC4SE_AD8D1xHg@mail.gmail.com>

That's the problem... I have no idea. Bought it from eBay long time ago,
however I can make a dd image of the disk, but it could take a while
because the laptop is in the storage.
Since Sun's Solaris 2.5.1/2.6 didn't work on sparcbook3, I doubt
non-tadpole media will work on sparcbook2.

Also have another 4.1.3 sparcbook2 harddisk dd image from a friend, so you
could give it a try. If you are interested send me a email.

Regards,
Plamen

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2/16/2015 12:18 AM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote:
>
>> My tadpole sparcbook 2 is running  4.1.3 happily.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Plamen
>>
>
> Was that installed from standard Sun distribution media?
>
> Thanks,
> Josh
>
>
>
>> On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 7:34 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Thanks, but I think Solaris 2.5 is much too new for the Sparcbook 2 (and
>>> I
>>> believe that the stock Sun versions of earlier versions (like SunOS
>>> 4.1.3)
>>> are incompatible as well -- it's been awhile since I last tried but I
>>> don't
>>> think the stock kernel will boot).
>>>
>>> If anyone knows differently, let me know...
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Josh
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/15/2015 1:47 AM, Mark Wickens wrote:
>>>
>>>  I have Solaris 2.5 media and a backup of the tadpole ftp site which I
>>>> will
>>>> get round to putting online at some point soon. Keep pestering in the
>>>> meantime  - feel free to send me private mail.
>>>>
>>>> Mark.
>>>>
>>>> On 15 February 2015 at 04:20, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   I have SunOS 4.1.3, still in the shrink wrap, if that helps.  Will
>>>> have
>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>> dig...
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:46 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>   Kind of a long shot, but hey.  I've had this trusty old Sparcbook 2
>>>>> for
>>>>>
>>>>>> awhile now and I never did manage to track down any OS media for it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  It's
>>>>>
>>>>>  currently running a variant of SunOS 4.1.2 and the old 2.5" SCSI
>>>>>> drives
>>>>>> (plural) are still holding out, but I'd like to be able to revive it
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> they finally do go to silicon heaven.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone have anything for these machines?  These are significantly
>>>>>> different from the later Sparcbooks (which are considerably more
>>>>>> Sun-compatible, hardware wise)...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>> Josh
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>

From brad at heeltoe.com  Tue Feb 17 10:48:26 2015
From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 11:48:26 -0500
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
Message-ID: <54E370DA.8070200@heeltoe.com>

On 2/11/15, 4:56 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
> All,
>
> I have the SC-40 home safe and sound.
>
> Before I go ANY further...I want to image the boot/microcode drives 
> which aren't 512-byte sectors.  What's the best approach?
>
> My options are a VAX netbooting VMS or netbooting NetBSD (install 
> doable for that one.)
>
> Thanks!
I've had very good luck cloning scsi drives with non standard sector 
sizes using linux.  I did it all from the command line using the "sg" 
device interface.  It does the reads "by hand" so it's a little slow but 
it works fine.  I can dig up the command line I used if you need.

I would set up linux box with a good scsi card if I were you.

-brad


From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Feb 17 10:49:41 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:49:41 -0600
Subject: DiskVaccuum project?
In-Reply-To: <6AA9F24A-BD5C-47CB-8FBE-B02D5F2B6671@gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502170943010.51795@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502170716260.9561@deltasoft.com>
 <E1B2CCAA-A0A7-4783-9986-A0C34F306FE7@gmail.com>
 <54E3660B.6080404@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <6AA9F24A-BD5C-47CB-8FBE-B02D5F2B6671@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.31.1424192406.1134.cctalk@classiccmp.org>


Has there been any news on this project in the last year?

http://forum.gadgetfactory.net/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/papilio/diskvaccuum-project-r82

- John


From b4 at gewt.net  Tue Feb 17 10:51:16 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 11:51:16 -0500
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <54E370DA.8070200@heeltoe.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54E370DA.8070200@heeltoe.com>
Message-ID: <C5F92F88-9E4B-49B7-A679-DEB57FBA1E06@gewt.net>

ddpt (related to sg_utils) did the trick on FreeBSD!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2015, at 11:48, Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2/11/15, 4:56 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
>> All,
>> 
>> I have the SC-40 home safe and sound.
>> 
>> Before I go ANY further...I want to image the boot/microcode drives which aren't 512-byte sectors.  What's the best approach?
>> 
>> My options are a VAX netbooting VMS or netbooting NetBSD (install doable for that one.)
>> 
>> Thanks!
> I've had very good luck cloning scsi drives with non standard sector sizes using linux.  I did it all from the command line using the "sg" device interface.  It does the reads "by hand" so it's a little slow but it works fine.  I can dig up the command line I used if you need.
> 
> I would set up linux box with a good scsi card if I were you.
> 
> -brad
> 

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 17 12:03:12 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:03:12 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
Message-ID: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>

My stars and garters--I just noticed the following article posted back 
in September that college students learning COBOL make more money:

http://readwrite.com/2014/09/17/cobol-programming-language-hot-or-not

Really?

--Chuck

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 17 12:03:12 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:03:12 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
Message-ID: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>

My stars and garters--I just noticed the following article posted back 
in September that college students learning COBOL make more money:

http://readwrite.com/2014/09/17/cobol-programming-language-hot-or-not

Really?

--Chuck

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 17 12:03:12 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:03:12 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
Message-ID: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>

My stars and garters--I just noticed the following article posted back 
in September that college students learning COBOL make more money:

http://readwrite.com/2014/09/17/cobol-programming-language-hot-or-not

Really?

--Chuck

From isking at uw.edu  Tue Feb 17 12:09:22 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:09:22 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ01WL2SBSWYHZVJ9Eyq3+Pts2wGHp5ORR60ubPksBHNx9w@mail.gmail.com>

There is an open position at my university for a COBOL programmer.  No, I
did not apply.  :-p

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> My stars and garters--I just noticed the following article posted back in
> September that college students learning COBOL make more money:
>
> http://readwrite.com/2014/09/17/cobol-programming-language-hot-or-not
>
> Really?
>
> --Chuck
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 12:46:26 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 13:46:26 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> My stars and garters--I just noticed the following article posted back in
> September that college students learning COBOL make more money:
>
> http://readwrite.com/2014/09/17/cobol-programming-language-hot-or-not

I've sat on the Industry Advisory Council a few times for our local
DeVry Institute campus... every year, they ask, "should we still teach
COBOL?"  Every year, Motorist Insurance, Grange Insurance, Nationwide
Insurance, and JPM Chase say, "send us more people who know COBOL."  A
few years ago, every graduate took 4 courses in COBOL.  Now, they all
still take one, and if you are on the "Enterprise" (mainframe) track,
you still take the full series.

And they pretty much all get hired, if that's what they want to do.
The companies all expect 1-2 years of additional training, but at
least they aren't starting new hires from scratch.

-ethan

From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 12:47:46 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 12:47:46 -0600
Subject: 11/23+ Console cables
In-Reply-To: <20150216205358.2CEA918C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150216205358.2CEA918C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <48506144-EBFA-462D-8ADF-775A1FE7E50F@gmail.com>


On Feb 16, 2015, at 2:53 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:

>> From: Roe Peterson
> 
>> Really?
> 
> Really! :-)
> 
> I can see a crystal on the cabkit, and if you look at the interface spec
> ('Microcomputers and Memories', 1982, pg. 628), it's clear it must use the
> External Clock for the baud rate to be switch selectable on the cabkit.

That's actually pretty cool.  I've got a couple of kdf11s, but I have never been able to find the bulkhead panel for one.


> 

From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 12:54:22 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 12:54:22 -0600
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>


> On Feb 17, 2015, at 12:46 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> My stars and garters--I just noticed the following article posted back in
>> September that college students learning COBOL make more money:
>> 
>> http://readwrite.com/2014/09/17/cobol-programming-language-hot-or-not
> 
> I've sat on the Industry Advisory Council a few times for our local
> DeVry Institute campus... every year, they ask, "should we still teach
> COBOL?"  Every year, Motorist Insurance, Grange Insurance, Nationwide
> Insurance, and JPM Chase say, "send us more people who know COBOL."  A
> few years ago, every graduate took 4 courses in COBOL.  Now, they all
> still take one, and if you are on the "Enterprise" (mainframe) track,
> you still take the full series.

I wouldn't wish a COBOL career on my worst enemy.  What a god-awful mess.

And yes, I know how and why it came to be.  And all about legacy code bases and the high cost of migration.  I was forced to take cobol back in 1978, never attended a lecture, handed in all the assignments, wrote the final, passed the course, and promptly forgot the whole thing.

Still, what a god-awful mess :-)


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 13:02:31 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:02:31 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Roe Peterson <roeapeterson at gmail.com> wrote:
> I wouldn't wish a COBOL career on my worst enemy.  What a god-awful mess.

I concur.  In 1978 or so, when I was new to BASIC (and still in Jr
High), my mother got me a book on COBOL
(https://openlibrary.org/works/OL2093357W/Standard_COBOL) in the
hopes, I think, of inspiring me on a career path.  I'd written a few
dozen working programs in BASIC and typed in many more at that point.
What I read horrified me.  How could anything be that mind-crushingly
verbose?  Pages and pages of form and very little function.
Fortunately for me, long before college, I fell into paying work in
microcomputers, then as I started college, minicomputers.  I did take
a FORTRAN course my first quarter at University (my one and only!) and
I did learn FORTRAN before C, but I don't think I was irreparably
damaged by my early efforts.

-ethan

From rrissell at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 11:07:16 2015
From: rrissell at gmail.com (Robert Rissell)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 12:07:16 -0500
Subject: Multi-node BBS'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170914330.20548-100000@localhost>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502170943010.51795@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170914330.20548-100000@localhost>
Message-ID: <CAKUz1Ox0zLBTxNvAC5bgAX2mgWi0DfPzAVa0-fEWp+thxO-5ow@mail.gmail.com>

Keep in mind that a BBS does NOT equal a DOS session.   All that is
required is the ability to service multiple COM: ports connected to modems
or local consoles; keeping track of what data is coming or going from which
port.   All else is bells and whistles.  You can have a system as simple as
2 commands.  READ: which types everything in the board file from the last
time it was cleared.   WRITE: which adds a line of text with a port ID to
differentiate who is typing.  Absolute login IDs or even date/time stamps
are optional.

It can be that simple.

Robyn- BBS user since 1979.
On Feb 17, 2015 10:13 AM, "JP Hindin" <jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, Mike Loewen wrote:
> > On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, JP Hindin wrote:
> >
> > > How did people set up multi-node BBS' back in the day?
> > >
> > > I know you could run something like Desqview and run multiple copies
> on a
> > > single system, and some BBS' (like TBBS) had built-in multitasking so
> it
> > > handled multiple modems. And, of course, you could get fancy and run a
> > > Novell network. Were there other ways of doing this?
> >
> >     Yes, on a real multi-tasking OS.  A friend of mine and I ran a
> > home-grown BBS on a Tandy 6000HD running Xenix for a couple of years
> > starting in 1986 in Sumner, WA.  Four 1200bps modems plus the console
> > allowed 5 of us to be on at the same time.  It was primarily a message
> > system (room-based), with a real-time chat facility.
>
> <chuckles>
>
> True, thanks Mike. I was being specific about DOS, actually - although I
> didn't say so, my bad. Certainly there were... shall we say, somewhat more
> advanced OS' that just simply "worked". I was more curious about what
> wedges people put in place to make multi-nodes in DOS... where it really
> didn't.
>
> Thanks though!
>
>  - JP
>
>

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 13:27:18 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:27:18 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5C7929AC39C2459F950040C47945DB89@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roe Peterson" <roeapeterson at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: Rich kids are into COBOL


I wouldn't wish a COBOL career on my worst enemy. 
What a god-awful mess.

And yes, I know how and why it came to be.  And 
all about legacy code bases and the high cost of 
migration.  I was forced to take cobol back in 
1978, never attended a lecture, handed in all the 
assignments, wrote the final, passed the course, 
and promptly forgot the whole thing.

Still, what a god-awful mess :-)

----- Reply -----

Good thing Grace Hopper isn't around to read 
that...

I actually kinda liked COBOL; a lot of it was just 
boilerplate after all...

m


From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 13:35:07 2015
From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:35:07 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <5C7929AC39C2459F950040C47945DB89@310e2>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <5C7929AC39C2459F950040C47945DB89@310e2>
Message-ID: <CAPi4v45QjXKhCHEKbTRErOB4CG6iRsG7BqiwQ8Tx3U+v6+qpoQ@mail.gmail.com>

College class project COBOL was NOTHING like working on years old ( or
decades old O_o ) production COBOL.   It usually entailed going on an
archeological dig through source, trying to discover business rules that
nobody left on the devl team could remember.

Also re-discovering why some pieces were "architected" the way they were.

Those brave kids will earn any high $$$$ with blood, sweat, and many many
tears.

TKilling

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roe Peterson" <roeapeterson at gmail.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 1:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
>
>
> I wouldn't wish a COBOL career on my worst enemy. What a god-awful mess.
>
> And yes, I know how and why it came to be.  And all about legacy code
> bases and the high cost of migration.  I was forced to take cobol back in
> 1978, never attended a lecture, handed in all the assignments, wrote the
> final, passed the course, and promptly forgot the whole thing.
>
> Still, what a god-awful mess :-)
>
> ----- Reply -----
>
> Good thing Grace Hopper isn't around to read that...
>
> I actually kinda liked COBOL; a lot of it was just boilerplate after all...
>
> m
>
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 17 13:37:04 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 11:37:04 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E39860.9040000@sydex.com>

On 02/17/2015 10:54 AM, Roe Peterson wrote:

> I wouldn't wish a COBOL career on my worst enemy.  What a god-awful mess.

Try *maintaining* the COBOL compiler for a couple of years.  Mostly, you 
sit with a pile of PSRs (program status/trouble reports) and the CODASYL 
report, quoting chapter and verse to the submitter.  Writing programs in 
the stuff was actually fun after that...

...and then try maintaining a custom version of COBOL where you had 
chains of communicating COBOL modules spread out over several 
machines--and where a module could manipulate the data of another that 
wasn't even resident in *any* machine's memory...

Good times--I've tried to forget about them.   I really have.

--Chuck



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 13:52:27 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:52:27 -0500
Subject: Non-512-byte sector drive cloning?
In-Reply-To: <C5F92F88-9E4B-49B7-A679-DEB57FBA1E06@gewt.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1502111653330.1006@gewt.net>
 <54E370DA.8070200@heeltoe.com>
 <C5F92F88-9E4B-49B7-A679-DEB57FBA1E06@gewt.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimniuQ_yZ49ujUP-Ab=BAnLXxUaPt+_SWWMKPhN6=1Axog@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
> ddpt (related to sg_utils) did the trick on FreeBSD!

Excellent!

-ethan

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Tue Feb 17 14:27:51 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 20:27:51 +0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D9AD9D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Ethan Dicks
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 11:03 AM

> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Roe Peterson <roeapeterson at gmail.com> wrote:

>> I wouldn't wish a COBOL career on my worst enemy.  What a god-awful mess.

> I concur.  In 1978 or so, when I was new to BASIC (and still in Jr High), my
> mother got me a book on COBOL
                [snip]
> in the hopes, I think, of inspiring me on a career path.  I'd written a few
> dozen working programs in BASIC and typed in many more at that point.  What I
> read horrified me.  How could anything be that mind-crushingly verbose?
> Pages and pages of form and very little function.  Fortunately for me, long
> before college, I fell into paying work in microcomputers, then as I started
> college, minicomputers.  I did take a FORTRAN course my first quarter at
> University (my one and only!) and I did learn FORTRAN before C, but I don't
> think I was irreparably damaged by my early efforts.

As late as 1990, I was still telling student employees at LOTS that they ought
to learn COBOL and JCL (MVS and DOS/VSE) as well as the cool languages.  That
way they were always assured of finding work while they looked for a job.  I
don't think any of them believed me...

I learned FORTRAN IV (1401) and PL/1 and COBOL (360/40 under DOS) my last
semester of high school, then picked up 360 Assembler as well as improving all
three over the following summer.  I only used Fortran in anger for a short
while in the late 1990s, but I made good money with COBOL and PL/1 through
college, grad school, and for a while beyond, until I moved into systems
programming (SVS/MVS and TOPS-20).  In the mean time, I wrote a Pascal compiler
for the DEC-20, and began my lifelong love affair with Lisp.

My *only* forays into BASIC were to read the Tiny Pascal compiler articles in
BYTE, and the source for the Star Trek game that ran under Wylbur on the
UChicago Wylbur system.

I don't think COBOL has hurt me at all.  In fact, I considered brushing it off
before I landed the current position, and I've had occasion to write some for
real production use at the museum.

                                                                Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Feb 17 14:33:36 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 15:33:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11/23+ Console cables
Message-ID: <20150217203336.BA4E718C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Roe Peterson

    > I've got a couple of kdf11s, but I have never been able to find the
    > bulkhead panel for one.

Same here: that's why I posted that data; I figured people probably had
11/23+ boards that were 'unusable' because they didn't have the console
cabkit. "Not any more", in the immortal words of Inspector Clouseau! :-)

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Feb 17 14:35:24 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 15:35:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Possible error in "Microcomputers and Memories" (1982 edition)
Message-ID: <20150217203524.1EC9D18C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So the description of the SSR3 register in "Microcomputers and Memories"
(1982), on pg. 284, apparently has an error. It describes bit 5 as "enables
I/O mapping", but.... the QBUS 11's don't have any kind of I/O mapping that I
know of. Or am I confused?

	Noel

From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue Feb 17 14:58:32 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 21:58:32 +0100
Subject: Possible error in "Microcomputers and Memories" (1982 edition)
In-Reply-To: <20150217203524.1EC9D18C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150217203524.1EC9D18C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54E3AB78.9080701@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-17 21:35, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> So the description of the SSR3 register in "Microcomputers and Memories"
> (1982), on pg. 284, apparently has an error. It describes bit 5 as "enables
> I/O mapping", but.... the QBUS 11's don't have any kind of I/O mapping that I
> know of. Or am I confused?

If it's the same as MMR3 in "older" CPUs, then yes, bit 5 is for Unibus 
map relocation.

That said, though, there were CPUs that were used in both Qbus and 
Unibus systems, so that bit could still be relevant to the CPU you're 
reading about, depending on in which environment it was used.

	Johnny


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 15:22:54 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 13:22:54 -0800
Subject: 11/23+ Console cables
In-Reply-To: <20150217203336.BA4E718C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150217203336.BA4E718C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJkpN5FPLp5ei_=7Jm1gGLfeSH2_pnDqTTLFx=O4PuSsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 17, 2015 12:33 PM, "Noel Chiappa" <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> Same here: that's why I posted that data; I figured people probably had
> 11/23+ boards that were 'unusable' because they didn't have the console
> cabkit. "Not any more", in the immortal words of Inspector Clouseau! :-)

If someone was unable to figure out how to use an M8189 11/23+ CPU board
due to lacking the official cabkit there probably isn't too much more they
could figure out to do with it given the cabkit. I don't remember it being
much of a puzzle to find the info in online manuals and/or print sets.

I just used mine with standard M8043 DLV11-J type cables until I came
across a cabkit for the M8189 on eBay one day that wasn't excessively
expensive. A somewhat rare item to find on eBay.

What I haven't picked up yet is a cabkit for my M7554 KDJ11-D 11/53. I had
to hack up something crude to test that board and haven't bothered building
a proper console cable yet. The S-handle version of the M7554 (DECserver
550 CPU) is more convenient to use since I have a BA213 chassis to put it
in.

-Glen

From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Feb 17 15:29:29 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 15:29:29 -0600
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.33.1424209138.1134.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 01:02 PM 2/17/2015, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>What I read horrified me.  How could anything be that mind-crushingly
>verbose? 

As compared to purposefully terse C one-liners?  :-)

- John



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 15:34:03 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:34:03 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150217213858.215042073EAC@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217213858.215042073EAC@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkkv6X75OUm6u6WCb4YFppiWZzz0kO4bKaCQfR3n6MKBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 4:29 PM, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
> At 01:02 PM 2/17/2015, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>What I read horrified me.  How could anything be that mind-crushingly
>>verbose?
>
> As compared to purposefully terse C one-liners?  :-)

Life is more than [0-9A-Z.,:;/#$%!*<>()_-+]

-ethan

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Tue Feb 17 15:48:43 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 13:48:43 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkkv6X75OUm6u6WCb4YFppiWZzz0kO4bKaCQfR3n6MKBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217213858.215042073EAC@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <CAALmimkkv6X75OUm6u6WCb4YFppiWZzz0kO4bKaCQfR3n6MKBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5F787553-8F6E-4C5B-9F06-26EB0F931D9F@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 17, 2015, at 1:34 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 4:29 PM, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
>> At 01:02 PM 2/17/2015, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>> What I read horrified me.  How could anything be that mind-crushingly
>>> verbose?
>> 
>> As compared to purposefully terse C one-liners?  :-)
> 
> Life is more than [0-9A-Z.,:;/#$%!*<>()_-+]
> 

I've been writing a lot of forth recently and I'm really *liking* the fact that the only
printable character that I can't use in a name is space (ie 0x20).  For example, it
makes much more sense to me to say #bytes rather than num_bytes or busy?
instead of is_busy.  ;-)

TTFN - Guy


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 15:53:01 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:53:01 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217213858.215042073EAC@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <FA185905C33C413182B4F836644371FE@310e2>

Indeed; given the choice I think I'd much rather
modify an old file-handling report-printing
business program written in COBOL than most other
languages...

I mean, what could be simpler and more
self-documenting:

http://www.google.com/doodles/grace-hoppers-107th-birthday

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Foust" <jfoust at threedee.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: Rich kids are into COBOL


> At 01:02 PM 2/17/2015, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>What I read horrified me.  How could anything be
>>that mind-crushingly
>>verbose?
>
> As compared to purposefully terse C one-liners?
> :-)
>
> - John
>
>


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 17 16:18:32 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:18:32 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <FA185905C33C413182B4F836644371FE@310e2>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217213858.215042073EAC@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <FA185905C33C413182B4F836644371FE@310e2>
Message-ID: <54E3BE38.1070409@sydex.com>

On 02/17/2015 01:53 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
> Indeed; given the choice I think I'd much rather
> modify an old file-handling report-printing
> business program written in COBOL than most other
> languages...

Well, you can be just as verbose in PL/I...

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Feb 17 16:18:47 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:18:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> a FORTRAN course my first quarter at University (my one and only!) and
> I did learn FORTRAN before C, but I don't think I was irreparably
> damaged by my early efforts.

Djikstra said that users of BASIC are mentally mutilated beyond hope of
redemption.
He siad that use of COBOL cripples the mind; teaching it should be
regarded as a criminal offense.


Somebody else, WHO???, said that FORTRAN was more portable than syphilis.



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Feb 17 16:32:39 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:32:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502171432090.21413@deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>> a FORTRAN course my first quarter at University (my one and only!) and
>> I did learn FORTRAN before C, but I don't think I was irreparably
>> damaged by my early efforts.
>
> Djikstra said that users of BASIC are mentally mutilated beyond hope of
> redemption.
> He siad that use of COBOL cripples the mind; teaching it should be
> regarded as a criminal offense.
>
Djikstra is a bloviating jackass.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From alan at alanlee.org  Tue Feb 17 16:36:06 2015
From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 17:36:06 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <2b11fe5ec72963b7e8be22b62184d072@alanlee.org>

 

Last year I 'rescued' approximately 2500 computer books from a storage
unit. About 10% of them are COBOL including my favorite "COBOL
Unleashed!" with an updated section on 'object oriented' COBOL
(shudder!). 

Maybe I should hang on to them and start reading? Things that make you
go hmm.... 

On 2015-02-17 13:03, Chuck Guzis wrote: 

> My stars and garters--I just noticed the following article posted back 
> in September that college students learning COBOL make more money:
> 
> http://readwrite.com/2014/09/17/cobol-programming-language-hot-or-not [1]
> 
> Really?
> 
> --Chuck
 

Links:
------
[1]
http://readwrite.com/2014/09/17/cobol-programming-language-hot-or-not

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Feb 17 16:39:53 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 15:39:53 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/17/2015 3:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> Somebody else, WHO???, said that FORTRAN was more portable than syphilis.
>

Was FORTRAN portable or did most jobs fit only the large mainframes at 
the time?
Ben.



From alan at alanlee.org  Tue Feb 17 16:44:31 2015
From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 17:44:31 -0500
Subject: Multi-node BBS'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
Message-ID: <37026a21083d67f0256ab8e7f9f7760c@alanlee.org>

 

I had a 2-node board running a file sharing program called $25Net over a
serial cable at 38400. I had a fancy Hayes intelligent serial card (DMA
engine) in a 5150 sitting on the floor beneath my 386 main node. Both
were running Spitfire BBS with Hayes 2400 smart modems and later Courier
HST/9600s. Worked surprisingly well. Crystal Palace BBS, Cabot
Arkansas.. RIP (and not the protocol). 

-Alan 

On 2015-02-17 09:44, JP Hindin wrote: 

> Gary's pulling up a BBS pushed me onto a wave of nostalgia so I've been
> digging through my old DOS archives of BBS software and the like that I
> picked up years ago and I came to a question.
> 
> How did people set up multi-node BBS' back in the day?
> 
> I know you could run something like Desqview and run multiple copies on a
> single system, and some BBS' (like TBBS) had built-in multitasking so it
> handled multiple modems. And, of course, you could get fancy and run a
> Novell network. Were there other ways of doing this?
> 
> I also saw a random mention of multi-node Commodore BBS'. Given Commodores
> didn't network or multi-task, I'm curious if the author of the note was
> mistaken, or if such things existed -- and then how did they work?
> 
> My thanks for helping with my flashback;
> 
> - JP
 

From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 16:45:49 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:45:49 -0600
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <5C7929AC39C2459F950040C47945DB89@310e2>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <5C7929AC39C2459F950040C47945DB89@310e2>
Message-ID: <D05DE7AB-5FD6-4AD1-A9CA-C1BE102C8625@gmail.com>





> On Feb 17, 2015, at 1:27 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roe Peterson" <roeapeterson at gmail.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 1:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
> 
> 
> I wouldn't wish a COBOL career on my worst enemy. What a god-awful mess.
> 
> And yes, I know how and why it came to be.  And all about legacy code bases and 
> ----- Reply -----
> 
> Good thing Grace Hopper isn't around to read that...

Actually, in ~1974 Grace Hopper gave a lecture at the University of Regina (I got a nanosecond!) and I asked what she would do differently with cobol.  She kind of grimaced and said "quite a bit".


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Feb 17 16:55:05 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:55:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <20150217144941.E32254@shell.lmi.net>

> > Somebody else, WHO???, said that FORTRAN was more portable than syphilis.
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, ben wrote:
> Was FORTRAN portable or did most jobs fit only the large mainframes at
> the time?

End of February 1979, Microsoft released FORTRAN for the TRS80.  They had
announced it months before, but it got delayed.  I got the first few
copies on my way home from the eclipse (had Bob Wallace meet me in the
Seattle airport, otherwise, it would have been delayed further)

Microsoft FORTRAN for the PC was unimpressive.
Integer sieve of Erastothanes ran slower than interpreted BASIC!


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From teoz at neo.rr.com  Tue Feb 17 17:12:59 2015
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 18:12:59 -0500
Subject: Multi-node BBS'
In-Reply-To: <54E3660B.6080404@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1502170817270.20548-100000@localhost>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502170943010.51795@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502170716260.9561@deltasoft.com>
 <E1B2CCAA-A0A7-4783-9986-A0C34F306FE7@gmail.com>
 <54E3660B.6080404@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <3A86C13267EC4E718F9397A1D5FCD3CD@TeoPC>

Depends. Rusty N Edies BBS was local to me and it was very popular just 
because of file sharing (which is what ultimately made it shut down).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusty_n_Edie%27s_BBS

My first look at the WWW came from there when they started offering web 
portals and I purchased Mosaic 1.0
Once the WWW took off BBS died pretty quickly.

-----Original Message----- 
From: ben
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 11:02 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Multi-node BBS'

On 2/17/2015 8:48 AM, Geoff Oltmans wrote:
I thought the fact that file sharing became popular is what did in
BBS. Log in and leave a message is only a few minutes. Download
some file @ 300 baud and a few hours is gone. Of course you just have
a single phone line and 50+ people a day one can never log in with
a long distance number.

Ben.




From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 17:44:07 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 23:44:07 -0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben
> Sent: 17 February 2015 22:40
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
> 
> On 2/17/2015 3:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> 
> > Somebody else, WHO???, said that FORTRAN was more portable than
> syphilis.
> >
> 
> Was FORTRAN portable or did most jobs fit only the large mainframes at the
> time?

So long as it wasn't DEC Fortran it was portable.....


> Ben.
> 



From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 17:44:26 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:44:26 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150217144941.E32254@shell.lmi.net>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20150217144941.E32254@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSJV4KWw1naEZTvHcaYcJLKiumNMmk_9Jb2oKwqZ0jVWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> Microsoft FORTRAN for the PC was unimpressive.
> Integer sieve of Erastothanes ran slower than interpreted BASIC!

I don't know about the PC or TRS-80 versions, but for stuff I did,
Fortran-80 for CP/M (introduced July 1977) was noticably faster than
Microsoft BASIC-80 for CP/M.  IIRC it produced native code with lots
of calls into the runtime library. Floating point arithmetic
performance was probably about the same as BASIC-80, but the compiled
code never had to search memory for the location of variables or the
line numbers of GOTO/GOSUB branch targets.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 17:57:59 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:57:59 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben
>> Was FORTRAN portable or did most jobs fit only the large mainframes at the
>> time?
>
> So long as it wasn't DEC Fortran it was portable.....

Around 1977 I started using DEC Fortran-10 (and a little bit of
Macro-10). Having had as a basis for comparison only HP 2000
Time-Shared BASIC, DEC Fortran seemed wonderful.

There were certainly large Fortran jobs that required mainframes, but
there were also tons of Fortran jobs that would work just fine on
16-bit minicomputers with relatively limited memory.  I think it can
be argued that Fortran was the "killer app" for minicomputers.

In the mid-1980s I had a job porting about 25 KLOCs of DEC Fortran to
a PC. Because the compiler on the PC didn't support many of the DEC
extensions, it ended up being easier and faster to rewrite the program
in Turbo Pascal.  Had Tubo C been available, that might have been a
better choice for long-term support, but at the time it wasn't yet
obvious that the mainstream would eventually shun Pascal.

Without getting into the merits of Pascal as a programming language,
Turbo Pascal was at that time the best programming environment I'd
used, and (with apologies to C.A.R. Hoare) an improvement not only
over its predecessors but also over many of its successors.  The
Smalltalk-80 development environment was obviously better in may ways
(I'd read the books), but I didn't have access to a system that ran
it, nor would software developed in Smalltalk-80 have been suitable
for my clients.

From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 18:04:24 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 18:04:24 -0600
Subject: EEPROM programmer for 68766
Message-ID: <68BDA4DE-DA6F-4247-8889-ACB239F836A3@gmail.com>

I'm trying to upgrade my pdp11/23+.  The new eeproms are 68766 24-pin 64kbit.

Like an idiot, I assumed my minipro 6 ltl USB programmer could handle these, but I was wrong.

Can anyone point me at a programmer that _can_ burn these?

Thanks!




From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Tue Feb 17 19:07:52 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 01:07:52 +0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D9C038@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

> From: Dave G4UGM
> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 3:44 PM

>> From: ben
>> Sent: 17 February 2015 22:40

>> Was FORTRAN portable or did most jobs fit only the large mainframes
>> at the time?

> So long as it wasn't DEC Fortran it was portable.....

Aw, come on, Dave.  So long as it wasn't *any* manufacturer's Fortran,
it was portable.

The first textbook I used, _FORTRAN IV Primer_ by Elliott I. Organick,
was filled with tables for all the various places that implementations
differed among manufacturers.  (That was where, in fact, I learned that
there *were* manufacturers other than IBM.)  No DEC systems were on the
list.

DEC was very careful to mark out where they had extended the language from
the 1966 standard (and later from the 1977 standard, which included most
of the DEC extensions to 1966).

If you restricted yourself to the standard, Fortran was very portable, and
that stood it in good stead for decades.  Good programmers put any of the
manufacturer specific code in subroutines which were easily replaced.

                                                                Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From shawn-gordon at cox.net  Tue Feb 17 19:38:38 2015
From: shawn-gordon at cox.net (Shawn Gordon)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 17:38:38 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <tZWP1p01r4Eo0lz01ZWTcU>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <tZWP1p01r4Eo0lz01ZWTcU>
Message-ID: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net>

so, what is easier to read and write?

IF STRING1 = STRING2

or

if !(strncmp(string1,string2,10) {

I've rewritten cobol into C a few times when I was a big enthusiast of C 
and the C code was longer and harder to maintain.


On 2/17/2015 1:29 PM, John Foust wrote:
> At 01:02 PM 2/17/2015, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>    
>> What I read horrified me.  How could anything be that mind-crushingly
>> verbose?
>>      
> As compared to purposefully terse C one-liners?  :-)
>
> - John
>
>
>
>    

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 17 19:59:53 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 17:59:53 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <54E3F219.1030705@sydex.com>

On 02/17/2015 02:39 PM, ben wrote:

> Was FORTRAN portable or did most jobs fit only the large mainframes at
> the time?

Actually, it was entirely possible to write portable programs in any 
FORTRAN IV or later system.  Note that this included *DECIMAL* machines 
as well as non-ASCII, non-byte addressable machines.  As far as I know, 
C doesn't exist for decimal machines.

Somewhere, I've got a Pascal compiler written in FORTRAN.

It was very usual on non-number-crunching portable programs to see:

     INTEGER ICSET(80)
     COMMON /CHARSET/ ICSET

     READ 100, ICSET
100 FORMAT( 80A1)

Or something similar.  The purpose is to get the basic character set 
defined that you'll be using, so the first input card would have the 
letters and numbers of the character set in a particular order.

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 17 20:03:58 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 18:03:58 -0800
Subject: EEPROM programmer for 68766
In-Reply-To: <68BDA4DE-DA6F-4247-8889-ACB239F836A3@gmail.com>
References: <68BDA4DE-DA6F-4247-8889-ACB239F836A3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E3F30E.7030909@sydex.com>

On 02/17/2015 04:04 PM, Roe Peterson wrote:
> I'm trying to upgrade my pdp11/23+.  The new eeproms are 68766 24-pin 64kbit.
>
> Like an idiot, I assumed my minipro 6 ltl USB programmer could handle these, but I was wrong.
>
> Can anyone point me at a programmer that _can_ burn these?

I assume that you mean a *cheap* programmer that can do them.  AFAIK, 
the same algorithm works for the 764, 765 and 766.  I program mine on an 
old Xeltek Superpro, but I also have an old EZ-EP parallel port 
programmer that will handle them.

Did any of the old Sunshine ISA PC programmers handle them also?

--Chuck



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 21:51:32 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 19:51:32 -0800
Subject: EEPROM programmer for 68766
In-Reply-To: <68BDA4DE-DA6F-4247-8889-ACB239F836A3@gmail.com>
References: <68BDA4DE-DA6F-4247-8889-ACB239F836A3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJpCGVp49pTN8H2VRMu+7RgNn0Xs77kWZbZ+NUSejMNEw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Roe Peterson <roeapeterson at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm trying to upgrade my pdp11/23+.  The new eeproms are 68766 24-pin 64kbit.
>
> Like an idiot, I assumed my minipro 6 ltl USB programmer could handle these, but I was wrong.
>
> Can anyone point me at a programmer that _can_ burn these?

I used my BP Microsystems programmer to program MC68766 parts for my
11/23+ (UV EPROM parts, note EEPROM parts).

I have an old spare Needhams EMP-10 that I think supports them that I
don't really need to keep anymore.

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Feb 17 23:27:52 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 00:27:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <tZWP1p01r4Eo0lz01ZWTcU> <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net>
Message-ID: <201502180527.AAA17308@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> I've rewritten cobol into C a few times when I was a big enthusiast
> of C and the C code was longer and harder to maintain.

That is no surprise to me.  If you were to take code written in C and
translate it into COBOL, I'd generally expect the COBOL code to be
longer and harder to maintain, too.

Indeed, I'd expect that for pretty much any pair of languages;
translating code out of the idiom it was written for generally makes it
larger and harder to understand.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From emu at e-bbes.com  Wed Feb 18 00:16:17 2015
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 07:16:17 +0100
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>

Zitat von Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com>:

> Without getting into the merits of Pascal as a programming language,
> Turbo Pascal was at that time the best programming environment I'd
> used, and (with apologies to C.A.R. Hoare) an improvement not only
> over its predecessors but also over many of its successors.  The

Finally somebody who liked Pascal ;-)
I enojoyed playing with Pascal/Modula etc.

However, paid jobs were FORTRAN & assembler back then

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Feb 18 00:33:58 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 23:33:58 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
Message-ID: <54E43256.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/17/2015 11:16 PM, emu at e-bbes.com wrote:
> Zitat von Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com>:
>
>> Without getting into the merits of Pascal as a programming language,
>> Turbo Pascal was at that time the best programming environment I'd
>> used, and (with apologies to C.A.R. Hoare) an improvement not only
>> over its predecessors but also over many of its successors.  The
>
> Finally somebody who liked Pascal ;-)
> I enojoyed playing with Pascal/Modula etc.
>
> However, paid jobs were FORTRAN & assembler back then
>
COBOL and FORTRAN in my mind are the main working languages.
All the others just seem to teach some sort of computer science
with the exception C that went with UNIX as a package deal.
My 2 cents. Ben.





From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 18 00:55:01 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 22:55:01 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <201502180527.AAA17308@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <tZWP1p01r4Eo0lz01ZWTcU> <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net>
 <201502180527.AAA17308@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <54E43745.5010204@sydex.com>

On 02/17/2015 09:27 PM, Mouse wrote:

> That is no surprise to me.  If you were to take code written in C and
> translate it into COBOL, I'd generally expect the COBOL code to be
> longer and harder to maintain, too.

COBOL implements a PICTURE specification, and, with the exception of 
PL/I, which copied it, was a stroke of genius.  A PICTURE clause 
specifies not only the display format, but also the type, scaling and usage.

You may think that the CORRESPONDING modifier is a singularly bad idea, 
but it has its uses.

How many languages before COBOL had a regular syntax for defining data 
structures?

COBOL is a powerful language with many different statement variations 
and, like other languages, is absolute hell in the hands of a neophyte.

--Chuck



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Feb 18 01:01:41 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 00:01:41 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E43745.5010204@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <tZWP1p01r4Eo0lz01ZWTcU> <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net>
 <201502180527.AAA17308@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <54E43745.5010204@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54E438D5.8050608@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/17/2015 11:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/17/2015 09:27 PM, Mouse wrote:
>
>> That is no surprise to me.  If you were to take code written in C and
>> translate it into COBOL, I'd generally expect the COBOL code to be
>> longer and harder to maintain, too.
>
> COBOL implements a PICTURE specification, and, with the exception of
> PL/I, which copied it, was a stroke of genius.  A PICTURE clause
> specifies not only the display format, but also the type, scaling and
> usage.
>
> You may think that the CORRESPONDING modifier is a singularly bad idea,
> but it has its uses.
>
> How many languages before COBOL had a regular syntax for defining data
> structures?
>

I can not think of many languages before COBOL.

> COBOL is a powerful language with many different statement variations
> and, like other languages, is absolute hell in the hands of a neophyte.

I leave HELL for APL.

> --Chuck

Ben.


From andy.holt at tesco.net  Wed Feb 18 01:09:11 2015
From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 07:09:11 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E438D5.8050608@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <2077481978.1339425.1424243351441.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>

>
>> COBOL is a powerful language with many different statement variations
>> and, like other languages, is absolute hell in the hands of a neophyte.
>
> I leave HELL for APL.

But for FORTRAN programmers HELL is Real
(unless declared otherwise)


From kspt.tor at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 02:02:28 2015
From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 09:02:28 +0100
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
Message-ID: <CAL1JhhzsDii6VJ92q-Uy1V5rtf_pTmaywfjBjFaWGKwxsQFKBw@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 February 2015 at 16:41, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:

> They consume about 18 watts and have claimed life expectancies
> in the 30,000 to 50,000 hour range.

But, is this the kind of life expectancy where they include the hours
when it's also powered off? Because that's what I have seen for some
early LED lights - 20,000 hours total lifetime if you used it only 2.5
hours a day.. the rest of the day was included in the life time claim.
Real life expectancy was thus only a bit more than 2000 hours, less
than three months, which turned out to be pretty accurate in practice.

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 02:44:38 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 09:44:38 +0100
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <2b11fe5ec72963b7e8be22b62184d072@alanlee.org>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <2b11fe5ec72963b7e8be22b62184d072@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE8U2PD+j_2Usmp7CzZHJ_XWAEeOx0vJFKYkOa35=nXgw@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 February 2015 at 23:36, Alan Hightower <alan at alanlee.org> wrote:
> About 10% of them are COBOL including my favorite "COBOL
> Unleashed!" with an updated section on 'object oriented' COBOL
> (shudder!).


http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 02:47:42 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 03:47:42 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <tZWP1p01r4Eo0lz01ZWTcU> <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net>
 <201502180527.AAA17308@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <54E43745.5010204@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <0D7B5EBF9DBB493A802D411273B0C86E@310e2>

One language that seems to be completely ignored 
when discussing languages, especially a 
file-handling and reporting language like COBOL, 
is dBase and the various other xBase languages 
like FoxBase, FoxPro, Clipper etc.

Folks are often surprised that it is in fact still 
around, in both 32 and 64 bit Windows versions 
including Windows 8...

m


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: <General at classiccmp.org>; 
"Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: Rich kids are into COBOL


> On 02/17/2015 09:27 PM, Mouse wrote:
>
>> That is no surprise to me.  If you were to take 
>> code written in C and
>> translate it into COBOL, I'd generally expect 
>> the COBOL code to be
>> longer and harder to maintain, too.
>
> COBOL implements a PICTURE specification, and, 
> with the exception of PL/I, which copied it, was 
> a stroke of genius.  A PICTURE clause specifies 
> not only the display format, but also the type, 
> scaling and usage.
>
> You may think that the CORRESPONDING modifier is 
> a singularly bad idea, but it has its uses.
>
> How many languages before COBOL had a regular 
> syntax for defining data structures?
>
> COBOL is a powerful language with many different 
> statement variations and, like other languages, 
> is absolute hell in the hands of a neophyte.
>
> --Chuck
>
> 


From jws at jwsss.com  Wed Feb 18 03:07:12 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 01:07:12 -0800
Subject: Cat weasel Yahoo Group reclaim
Message-ID: <54E45640.2030503@jwsss.com>

I set up a poll to select a moderator to replace the inactive moderation 
on the Catweasel group.  I know the owner / creator is probably on here, 
and I am doing this per Yahoo instructions to get rid of the spam.

I'm posting here briefly as I'm sure a lot have filtered out the group 
due to the spam.

Here is the poll link:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/catweasel/polls/poll/3206349?pollType=ENABLED

The information about this is in a couple of messages on the Yahoo 
groups site.    This is partly an effort to salvage the Catweasel group 
there, and partly an effort to see if Yahoo customer service follows 
thru.  So far they are communicating with me.  I'll let you all know how 
it goes.

I'll end the poll for a new moderator around the end of February, per 
their suggestion.

Thanks
Jim


From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Wed Feb 18 06:10:51 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 12:10:51 +0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E43256.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E43256.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <20150218121051.GA31620@mooli.org.uk>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:33:58PM -0700, ben wrote:
[...]
> COBOL and FORTRAN in my mind are the main working languages. All the others
> just seem to teach some sort of computer science with the exception C that
> went with UNIX as a package deal.

So, where does Perl fit in? :)


From radiotest at juno.com  Wed Feb 18 07:43:28 2015
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 08:43:28 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E43256.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E43256.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20150218082827.03d40f40@juno.com>

At 01:33 AM 2/18/2015, Ben wrote:

>COBOL and FORTRAN in my mind are the main working languages.
>All the others just seem to teach some sort of computer science ...

And that was the original purpose of Pascal. Niklaus Wirth initially designed Pascal as a procedural language to teach structured programming. In the CP/M days I experimented with other languages (I had Mix C, Turbo Modula-2, and others that I got pretty cheaply but never did much with) but ended up sticking with Turbo Pascal optimized with some assembly language routines.

In high school in the late 1960s, at the MIT High School Studies program, I looked at a number of languages but ended up studying and working mostly with FORTRAN and ALGOL because my primary interest was in scientific computing. I wrote some programs in SNOBOL because string manipulation intrigued me. I took one look at a COBOL manual but realized that I had no interest in business applications.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Wed Feb 18 08:15:18 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 14:15:18 +0000
Subject: confirm 0c60d0dc1a8d8488f744c3297b5450c6019d9dc6
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4869.1424268374.1135.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.4869.1424268374.1135.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20150218141518.GA1807@mooli.org.uk>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 08:06:14AM -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
> Your membership in the mailing list cctalk has been disabled due to excessive
> bounces The last bounce received from you was dated 18-Feb-2015. You will not
> get any more messages from this list until you re-enable your membership. You
> will receive 3 more reminders like this before your membership in the list is
> deleted.

These automatic unsubscriptions are getting tedious. I'm not bouncing cctalk
mail, but I *am* bouncing all mail from cctech since I never subscribed and the
list software has ignored all reasonable efforts to unsubscribe. Evidently
there's a misconfiguration somewhere that is linking the two lists like Siamese
twins.

I did drop Jay a line offering to look at and fix the configuration, but that
mail seems to have vanished into the void along with my cctech unsubscription
attempts.

So, is there any way to receve cctalk and not cctech?


From johannesthelen at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 17 14:07:30 2015
From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 22:07:30 +0200
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
Message-ID: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>


Hello!

I just got HP 2109 E-series which I bought from eBay last week. I was planning to make own tape emulator interface for it, but I found mystery card from it, and it could solve some of data transfering problems...
Here's pictures of it:https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DR111cK6W-M0FPSnR4VmRDR3M/view?usp=sharinghttps://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DR111cK6W-Rm5FWFFueTd1eEE/view?usp=sharing
It seems to be from 1995  what I can guess from chip date codes, but theres no any manufacturers logos. As you can see pic, there is RJ45 and SCSI connectors. Is this somekind of emulator board for disk drive..? Can it used with PC (like old NetBEUI protocol) or is this for some very-special-made-for-very-special-communication-software?
Computer itself is from Navy's Radcom station (made by Grumman Aerospace Division), maybe somebody knows more of this system...

- Johannes Thelen

Old computer blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/Company site  www.thelentech.fi

 		 	   		  

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Wed Feb 18 07:57:42 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 08:57:42 -0500
Subject: TSX Plus...
In-Reply-To: <20150216080812.742403a0@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <20140303201107.78bb62b2@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <CAMDAk4cU6+o2YOnRB=w=LCYHjG2aFEH-N9JKNCtKpf-iXb8aCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+oaVqyGs6OXcMs6NX_cRc_Qix8+xq1bm4eyyF7gM_=-1vQxBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150216080812.742403a0@asrock.bcwi.net>
Message-ID: <54E49A56.2090600@compsys.to>

 >Lyle Bickley wrote:

>>On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 15:56:30 -0500
>Jim Carpenter <jim at deitygraveyard.com> wrote:
>
>>>On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Earl Evans <earl at retrobits.com>
>>wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>>On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Lyle Bickley
>>><lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>After stating that I expected TSX Plus to be available generally
>>>>to the collector community this week, I have had a number of folks
>>>>request access to TSX plus via private FTP.
>>>>
>>>>Please be a bit patient and wait for me to post it to a new
>>>>website I'm in the process of creating. I now have full agreement
>>>>from S&H to generally release TSX Plus, COBOL, etc., to the
>>>>collector community via a simple download.
>>>>
>>>After a bit of a hiatus with the PDP-11, I'm getting back into it.
>>>Wondering if there's any update on this? Would be great to see the
>>>TSX Plus bits and documentation you've collected, especially
>>>considering your work with S&H to pave the way.
>>>
>>I am also very interested in this.
>>    
>>
>
>Sorry guys, I dropped the ball on this. I've been doing a bunch of
>transitioning and ended up working on a number of other projects - and
>completely forgot about TSX.
>
>This discussion is prodding me to finish my half done website for TSX...
>
>I apologize for the huge delay...
>  
>
Since TSX-Plus and RT-11 are closely related, I am also interested.

I am curious. Will V6.05 of the binary distribution be made available?

Will any version of the commented source code be made available?
The last time there was any mention of the commented source code
files, I understand they had been OCRed, but not converted to text
acceptable to MACRO-11.  Has this status changed?  Also, I seem
to remember that the commented source code files were from V6.03,
not from V6.05 of TSX-Plus.  Has that status changed?

In case you are interested, it is possible to use the UnMac application
to produce UNCOMMENTED source code from the OBJ files.  If
the Commented Source Code Files are from V6.03 of TSX-Plus, it
should be easy to produce source code files from both V6.03 and
V6.05 of TSX-Plus binary distributions, then perform a SRCCOM
to determine the differences.

I have added a few features to RT-11 which I would like to see in
TSX-Plus.  About 10 years ago, I looked at TSUSR to see what
could be done there.

Please comment on what hobby users would be allowed and supported
to do with the TSX-Plus distributions?

Jerome Fine

From kelly at catcorner.org  Wed Feb 18 09:21:23 2015
From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 15:21:23 +0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150217144941.E32254@shell.lmi.net>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>,<20150217144941.E32254@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <1424272881774.6194@catcorner.org>

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:
> Microsoft FORTRAN for the PC was unimpressive.
> Integer sieve of Erastothanes ran slower than interpreted BASIC!

What version was that? In 1991 I was using Microsoft FORTRAN on the PC for ground water modelling. The floating point matrix math was much faster than anything I could do in BASIC by several orders of magnitude. 

I was a poor engineering student so this was my on my old Tandy 1000A with a 286 accelerator and 287 math chip.

Kelly

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Feb 18 09:37:45 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 09:37:45 -0600
Subject: confirm 0c60d0dc1a8d8488f744c3297b5450c6019d9dc6
In-Reply-To: <20150218141518.GA1807@mooli.org.uk>
References: <mailman.4869.1424268374.1135.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <20150218141518.GA1807@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <011101d04b90$d7cdd8b0$87698a10$@classiccmp.org>

1) There is not a misconfiguration.
2) Yes, the two lists are joined like Siamese Twins. That was not my call,
and it's a royal pain. But.. "it is what it is".
3) I never received any email from you asking me to look at the issue.
Ostensibly - your mx host and ours don't like eachother (or the path
between).
4) I'd love to know how you're getting cctech traffic, since I just checked
and you are most definitely not subscribed to that list. Perhaps you are
referring to cctech posts that are gated to cctalk and the headers reflect
that? It's valid list traffic.
5) I apologize for my top-posting.

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Corlett
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 8:15 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: confirm 0c60d0dc1a8d8488f744c3297b5450c6019d9dc6

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 08:06:14AM -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org
wrote:
> Your membership in the mailing list cctalk has been disabled due to 
> excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated 
> 18-Feb-2015. You will not get any more messages from this list until 
> you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more reminders like 
> this before your membership in the list is deleted.

These automatic unsubscriptions are getting tedious. I'm not bouncing cctalk
mail, but I *am* bouncing all mail from cctech since I never subscribed and
the list software has ignored all reasonable efforts to unsubscribe.
Evidently there's a misconfiguration somewhere that is linking the two lists
like Siamese twins.

I did drop Jay a line offering to look at and fix the configuration, but
that mail seems to have vanished into the void along with my cctech
unsubscription attempts.

So, is there any way to receve cctalk and not cctech?



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Feb 18 09:41:52 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 07:41:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <1424272881774.6194@catcorner.org>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>,
 <20150217144941.E32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <1424272881774.6194@catcorner.org>
Message-ID: <20150218073721.F44264@shell.lmi.net>

> Microsoft FORTRAN for the PC was unimpressive.
> Integer sieve of Erastothanes ran slower than interpreted BASIC!

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015, Kelly Leavitt wrote:
> What version was that? In 1991
1983 Version 1.0
Hopefully it was improved by the time that you got it.

> I was using Microsoft FORTRAN on the PC
> for ground water modelling. The floating point matrix math was much
> faster than anything I could do in BASIC by several orders of magnitude.

The comparison was INTEGER, and not using any floating point (which
FORTRAN likes to call "REAL".

> I was a poor engineering student so this was my on my old Tandy 1000A
> with a 286 accelerator and 287 math chip.

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Feb 18 09:43:45 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 09:43:45 -0600
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <011201d04b91$ae598d70$0b0ca850$@classiccmp.org>

Johannes wrote...
----
I just got HP 2109 E-series which I bought from eBay last week. 
----
Congrats! I love those machines :)

----
I was planning to make own tape emulator interface for it, but I found
mystery card from it, and it could solve some of data transfering
problems...
Here's pictures of
it:https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DR111cK6W-M0FPSnR4VmRDR3M/view?usp=sha
ring
----
In all my years I have never seen such a card for HP21XX machines.
Absolutely no clue.

----
It seems to be from 1995  what I can guess from chip date codes, but theres
no any manufacturers logos. As you can see pic, there is RJ45 and SCSI
connectors. Is this somekind of emulator board for disk drive..? Can it used
with PC (like old NetBEUI protocol) or is this for some
very-special-made-for-very-special-communication-software?
Computer itself is from Navy's Radcom station (made by Grumman Aerospace
Division), maybe somebody knows more of this system...
----
I'd have to see the card in person to guess, but I wouldn't think the RJ45
would be Ethernet. Serial management port maybe? Just a WAG...
If you're thinking of home-brewing something, I'd suggest starting with a
Microcircuit Interface board. Those boards were designed to be general
purpose interfaces and are a great starting point. Bob Shannon has a paper
tape reader/punch emulator device that works fantastic that uses one, and I
think there is an IDE drive interface floating around that may use a MCI
board as well...

J
		 	   		



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Feb 18 09:54:36 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 09:54:36 -0600
Subject: Equipment Available
Message-ID: <011f01d04b93$329f70d0$97de5270$@classiccmp.org>

In Sydney Australia. a PDP-11/03 (probably with an expansion chassis) and an
RX01 drive, all in a lowboy "desk" cabinet. All front panel covers present.
Cost details are not specific, but it appears to be "free to a good home".
Owner will not ship, so local pickup only.

 

If interested, please contact me off-list and I'll hook you up with the
owner.

 

Best,

 

J


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Wed Feb 18 10:10:24 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 16:10:24 +0000 (WET)
Subject: confirm 0c60d0dc1a8d8488f744c3297b5450c6019d9dc6
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 18 Feb 2015 09:37:45 -0600"
 <011101d04b90$d7cdd8b0$87698a10$@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.4869.1424268374.1135.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <20150218141518.GA1807@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <01PIO7TOST500004E1@beyondthepale.ie>

Hi Jay,

>
> 4) I'd love to know how you're getting cctech traffic, since I just checked
> and you are most definitely not subscribed to that list. Perhaps you are
> referring to cctech posts that are gated to cctalk and the headers reflect
> that? It's valid list traffic.
>

I investigated a similar issue with my subscription and posted on the list
about it in November last.

The short summary is as follows:

Before the big event, I was subscribed to cctech only.  After the big event, I
remained subscribed to cctech only but received two copies of nearly everything,
one with:

Return-path: <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org>

and one with:

Return-path: <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org>

I tried unsubscribing from cctalk.  I couldn't because I wasn't subscribed.
I eventually unsubscribed from cctech and subscribed to cctalk.  I found I
was getting almost no duplicates after that.  The off-topic stuff wasn't a
problem because very little off-topic stuff was being posted.

However, the number of duplicates has increased recently.  I suspect that I
am getting one copy of mails posted to cctalk and two copies of mails posted
to cctech, the opposite situation of when I was on cctech.  Back in November,
very few postings were going to cctech so being subscribed to cctalk seemed
to be the best option at that time.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Feb 18 10:47:49 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 11:47:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: confirm 0c60d0dc1a8d8488f744c3297b5450c6019d9dc6
In-Reply-To: <011101d04b90$d7cdd8b0$87698a10$@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.4869.1424268374.1135.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <20150218141518.GA1807@mooli.org.uk>
 <011101d04b90$d7cdd8b0$87698a10$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <201502181647.LAA24435@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> 4) I'd love to know how you're getting cctech traffic, since I just
> checked and you are most definitely not subscribed to that list.
> Perhaps you are referring to cctech posts that are gated to cctalk
> and the headers reflect that?  It's valid list traffic.

I don't know about the OP, but I've been getting duplicates of some
mail.  (Curiously, according to the Delivered-To: headers, both copies
came through cctech, though the rest of the headers, like List-* and
X-BeenThere, show cctalk for one copy and cctech for the other.)

I once, back very soon after the list loss-and-recovery, tried to unsub
from cctech and the automated system told me I wasn't subscribed - but,
IIRC, it was using the envelope-from rather than the header-From: from
my mail, so I'm not sure I entirely trust it.

I just now put an example up on ftp.rodents-montreal.org; see
/mouse/misc/classiccmp/msg-cctalk.txt and .../msg-cctech.txt for them.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 18 10:50:44 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 08:50:44 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20150218082827.03d40f40@juno.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E43256.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <7.0.1.0.2.20150218082827.03d40f40@juno.com>
Message-ID: <54E4C2E4.4000702@sydex.com>

Is there any other language (save PL/I for obvious reasons) that has an 
equivalent to the COBOL PERFORM...THRU statement?

That one always struck me as being a bit offbeat.  Example: Consider a 
section of a program with 4 consecutive paragraphs, named PARA-1 through 
PARA-4.  One can say in the same program:

PERFORM PARA-1 23 TIMES.
PERFORM PARA-1 THRU PARA-4.
PERFORM PARA-1 THRU PARA-2.
PERFORM PARA-2 THRU PARA-3 WITH TEST AFTER VARYING INDEX-1 FROM 10 BY 3 
UNTIL FLAG-1 > 0.

It's that variable scope of a PERFORM that I don't recall seeing in any 
other language.

--CHuck




From spc at conman.org  Wed Feb 18 10:55:45 2015
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 11:55:45 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E4C2E4.4000702@sydex.com>
References: <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E43256.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <7.0.1.0.2.20150218082827.03d40f40@juno.com>
 <54E4C2E4.4000702@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150218165544.GA12254@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated:
> Is there any other language (save PL/I for obvious reasons) that has an 
> equivalent to the COBOL PERFORM...THRU statement?
> 
> That one always struck me as being a bit offbeat.  Example: Consider a 
> section of a program with 4 consecutive paragraphs, named PARA-1 through 
> PARA-4.  One can say in the same program:
> 
> PERFORM PARA-1 23 TIMES.

Um ...

  for i = 1 , 23 do
    para_1()
    para_2()
    para_3()
    para_4()
  end

> PERFORM PARA-1 THRU PARA-4.

  para_1()
  para_2()
  para_3()
  para_4()

> PERFORM PARA-1 THRU PARA-2.

  para_1()
  para_2()

> PERFORM PARA-2 THRU PARA-3 WITH TEST AFTER VARYING INDEX-1 FROM 10 BY 3 
> UNTIL FLAG-1 > 0.

  repeat
    para_2()
    para_3()
    index_1 -= 3
  until flag_1 > 0

> It's that variable scope of a PERFORM that I don't recall seeing in any 
> other language.

  Am I missing someting?

  -spc (I might have the logic messed up on that last one, not knowing
	COBOL)


From jws at jwsss.com  Wed Feb 18 11:16:21 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 09:16:21 -0800
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <011201d04b91$ae598d70$0b0ca850$@classiccmp.org>
References: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>
 <011201d04b91$ae598d70$0b0ca850$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <54E4C8E5.3000500@jwsss.com>


On 2/18/2015 7:43 AM, Jay West wrote:
> Johannes wrote...
> ----
> I just got HP 2109 E-series which I bought from eBay last week.
> ----
> Congrats! I love those machines :)
>
> ----
> I was planning to make own tape emulator interface for it, but I found
> mystery card from it, and it could solve some of data transfering
> problems...
> Here's pictures of
> it:https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DR111cK6W-M0FPSnR4VmRDR3M/view?usp=sha
> ring
> ----
the Symbios 53C710 near the connector has info that indicates that it 
may be an Symbios chip developed for HP for the HP 9000.  So it could be 
either a custom instrument card, or it may if you are luck be general 
enough to get to any SCSI.

Give these systems use with HP test equipment, I know that such as the 
16500B and 16500C have SCSI ports which allow the 16505 access the 
analyzer chassis.  This may be a card developed for the 2109 system by 
HP for a custom or limited run job.

thanks
Jim

> In all my years I have never seen such a card for HP21XX machines.
> Absolutely no clue.
>
> ----
> It seems to be from 1995  what I can guess from chip date codes, but theres
> no any manufacturers logos. As you can see pic, there is RJ45 and SCSI
> connectors. Is this somekind of emulator board for disk drive..? Can it used
> with PC (like old NetBEUI protocol) or is this for some
> very-special-made-for-very-special-communication-software?
> Computer itself is from Navy's Radcom station (made by Grumman Aerospace
> Division), maybe somebody knows more of this system...
> ----
> I'd have to see the card in person to guess, but I wouldn't think the RJ45
> would be Ethernet. Serial management port maybe? Just a WAG...
> If you're thinking of home-brewing something, I'd suggest starting with a
> Microcircuit Interface board. Those boards were designed to be general
> purpose interfaces and are a great starting point. Bob Shannon has a paper
> tape reader/punch emulator device that works fantastic that uses one, and I
> think there is an IDE drive interface floating around that may use a MCI
> board as well...
>
> J
> 		 	   		
>
>
>


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 11:34:13 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 12:34:13 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkCCN5qEu2BSg+mmKhrYnRuOMtZDz0pH1tO9CKgsdT2vA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
> So long as it wasn't DEC Fortran it was portable.....

Or CompuServe's XF4.

-ethan

From christian_liendo at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 18 11:50:26 2015
From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 17:50:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Craig Solomonson posts the video he made to sell his Apple I back
 in 1996
Message-ID: <498520458.710239.1424281826382.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

It's interesting because he reads the letter he got from Apple talking about their support for the Apple I vs Apple II

http://youtu.be/pCtHNWq8tjQ

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Feb 18 11:55:37 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 11:55:37 -0600
Subject: Incandescent lights [Re: It's time to restore the 11/45.]
In-Reply-To: <CAL1JhhzsDii6VJ92q-Uy1V5rtf_pTmaywfjBjFaWGKwxsQFKBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL1JhhzsDii6VJ92q-Uy1V5rtf_pTmaywfjBjFaWGKwxsQFKBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E4D219.2090302@pico-systems.com>

On 02/18/2015 02:02 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote:
> On 14 February 2015 at 16:41, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
>
>> They consume about 18 watts and have claimed life expectancies
>> in the 30,000 to 50,000 hour range.
> But, is this the kind of life expectancy where they include the hours
> when it's also powered off? Because that's what I have seen for some
> early LED lights - 20,000 hours total lifetime if you used it only 2.5
> hours a day.. the rest of the day was included in the life time claim.
> Real life expectancy was thus only a bit more than 2000 hours, less
> than three months, which turned out to be pretty accurate in practice.
>
My home-made LED retrofits have already passed this mark.  
The first one I did
has probably run over 3000 actual operating hours, the 
others must be over
2000.  No sign of loss of output.  But, then these were made 
so they run real
cool.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 18 12:24:31 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:24:31 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150218165544.GA12254@brevard.conman.org>
References: <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E43256.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <7.0.1.0.2.20150218082827.03d40f40@juno.com>
 <54E4C2E4.4000702@sydex.com> <20150218165544.GA12254@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <54E4D8DF.7020005@sydex.com>

On 02/18/2015 08:55 AM, Sean Conner wrote:

>> It's that variable scope of a PERFORM that I don't recall seeing in any
>> other language.
>
>    Am I missing someting?

Yes, you are.  Control flow can also "drop though" when executing the 
paragraphs.  In any other language, you'd have to invoke the paragraphs 
explicitly.


Thus:

Para-1.
    ...some code...
Para-2.
     ...some more code...
Para-3.
      ---yet more code...
Para-4.
      ...and some other code...


If control flow proceeds normally (or via a GO TO) to Para-1, control 
will normally flow from there out the bottom of Para-4.

--Chuck





From kelly at catcorner.org  Wed Feb 18 13:03:19 2015
From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:03:19 +0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150218073721.F44264@shell.lmi.net>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>,
 <20150217144941.E32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <1424272881774.6194@catcorner.org>,<20150218073721.F44264@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <1424286197363.52566@catcorner.org>

> The comparison was INTEGER, and not using any floating point (which
> FORTRAN likes to call "REAL".

I was offering a perspective on their REAL type 9 years later. I hope they made some improvements in that time. It was quite fun to use and then capture the output into a file that I then parsed into influence graphs and solute transport graphs based on the aquifer parameters.



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Feb 18 13:06:17 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 12:06:17 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <1424286197363.52566@catcorner.org>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>,
 <20150217144941.E32254@shell.lmi.net> <1424272881774.6194@catcorner.org>,
 <20150218073721.F44264@shell.lmi.net> <1424286197363.52566@catcorner.org>
Message-ID: <54E4E2A9.7000708@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/18/2015 12:03 PM, Kelly Leavitt wrote:
>> The comparison was INTEGER, and not using any floating point
>> (which FORTRAN likes to call "REAL".
>
> I was offering a perspective on their REAL type 9 years later. I hope
> they made some improvements in that time. It was quite fun to use and
> then capture the output into a file that I then parsed into influence
> graphs and solute transport graphs based on the aquifer parameters.
>
>
>
I suspect it may have needed a compile option to use the
floating point processor.
Ben.

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Wed Feb 18 14:08:27 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:08:27 +0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150218165544.GA12254@brevard.conman.org>
References: <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E43256.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <7.0.1.0.2.20150218082827.03d40f40@juno.com>
 <54E4C2E4.4000702@sydex.com> <20150218165544.GA12254@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D9E3F6@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Sean Conner
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 8:56 AM

> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated:

>> Is there any other language (save PL/I for obvious reasons) that has an
>> equivalent to the COBOL PERFORM...THRU statement?

>> That one always struck me as being a bit offbeat.  Example: Consider a
>> section of a program with 4 consecutive paragraphs, named PARA-1 through
>> PARA-4.  One can say in the same program:

>> PERFORM PARA-2 THRU PARA-3 WITH TEST AFTER VARYING INDEX-1 FROM 10 BY 3
   	   	       	      ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^
>> UNTIL FLAG-1 > 0.

Syntax error.  The syntax of the PERFORM verb in this case is

       PERFORM paragraph-1 [{THRU,THROUGH} paragraph-2]
       	       VARYING {identifier-1, index-name-1} FROM {identifier-2,
	       	       		      		    	  index-name-2,
							  literal-1}
						    BY {identifier-3,
						        index-name-3,
							literal-2}
						    UNTIL condition-1
	      [AFTER VARYING {identifier-4, index-name-4} FROM {identifier-5
		                                                index-name-5
                    						literal-3}
							  BY {identifier-6,
							      index-name-6,
							      literal-4}
							  UNTIL condition-2
	      [AFTER VARYING {identifier-7, index-name-7} FROM {identifier-8
	                                                        index-name-8
	                                                        literal-5}
	                                                  BY {identifier-9,
	                                                      index-name-9,
	                                                      literal-6}
	                                                  UNTIL condition-3]]
        .

Braces indicate alternatives, brackets indicate optional portions of the statement.

An AFTER VARYING clause can only occur in a 2nd or 3rd position following
the 1st VARYING clause.

There is no "WITH xxxx" in the 1968 or 1974 CODASYL standard; did that come
into the language in 1985 or later?  Never mind, I just checked the IBM COBOL
reference manual, based on the 1985 standard, and do not see it there, either.

    index_1 = 10
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   repeat	
>     para_2()	
>     para_3()	
>     index_1 -= 3
>   until flag_1 > 0

Sean forgot to initialize index_1 to 10 before beginning the repeat ... until
loop.

                                                                Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 14:28:53 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 13:28:53 -0700
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <54E4C8E5.3000500@jwsss.com>
References: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>
 <011201d04b91$ae598d70$0b0ca850$@classiccmp.org>
 <54E4C8E5.3000500@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSAm+yKabiWC4+TerLFF_9WA-_Nct43a2HNT-joQV0zvw@mail.gmail.com>

Johannes Thelen <johannesthelen at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I just got HP 2109 E-series which I bought from eBay last week. I was planning
> to make own tape emulator interface for it, but I found mystery card from it,

High-resolution photos or scans to allow identification of more of the
components
might help with figuring out the likely functionality provided.

Based on what can be seen, I doubt that the RJ45 is for Ethernet.

jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> the Symbios 53C710 near the connector has info that indicates that it may be
> an Symbios chip developed for HP for the HP 9000.

The 53C710 was a standard NCR/Symbios product, not something
custom-developed for the HP 9000. It was used in a lot of systems,
including PCs.  The 53C710 was introduced in 1992, so the design
of this card couldn't be any older than that.

HP made custom SCSI adapters of various sorts for some of their
machines that didn't natively support SCSI, for internal use only for
manufacturing, test, and repair of their SCSI disk drives. However,
I don't think this is one of them.

> This may be a card developed for the 2109 system by HP for a custom
> or limited run job.

That does seem somewhat likely. Development of new hardware as
standard products for the HP 1000 systems (previously HP 21xx, still
using 21xx part numbers) had nearly entirely stopped by the mid-1990s,
but a big customer could certain have gotten HP to design a custom
interface.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 14:35:30 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 13:35:30 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150218165544.GA12254@brevard.conman.org>
References: <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E43256.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150218082827.03d40f40@juno.com>
 <54E4C2E4.4000702@sydex.com>
 <20150218165544.GA12254@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTadJeeznc26EaaTzDXvuecPr9Z8r4wfKdjav2qtDnrOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Sean Conner <spc at conman.org> wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated:
>> Is there any other language (save PL/I for obvious reasons) that has an
>> equivalent to the COBOL PERFORM...THRU statement?
>>
>> That one always struck me as being a bit offbeat.  Example: Consider a
>> section of a program with 4 consecutive paragraphs, named PARA-1 through
>> PARA-4.  One can say in the same program:
>>
>> PERFORM PARA-1 23 TIMES.
>
> Um ...
>
>   for i = 1 , 23 do
>     para_1()
>     para_2()
>     para_3()
>     para_4()
>   end


No. In the COBOL example PARA-1 though PARA-4 are consecutive
paragraphs, not functions that are terminated by a return (explicit or
implicit).  If you want to think of it as a function, the paragraphs
are all part of a single function, but both the entry and return
points of the function are variable, specified by the caller!

No one claimed that it wasn't possible to achieve the equivalent
effect of such a program using normal constructs of other languages;
it would just have to be structured differently.

From tosteve at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 18 14:44:02 2015
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:44:02 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: WANTED: "Tech Pickers" to have their own TV show
Message-ID: <1758392776.932143.1424292242309.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>


I received this email from Mary - I myself have no personality LOL, perhaps you do?Please apply within:


  From: Mary Abramson <Mary.abramson at nutopia.com>
My name is Mary Abramsonand I?m a Casting Producer at Nutopia.
 Currently we?re looking for a couple of guys that areespecially passionate about vintage tech to host a new show. I?d love to speakwith you about this project if you?re interested. 

Let?s set up a call, and thenpossibly a Skype interview. If not, please feel free to pass my contact info onto anyone you think might fit.?I?ve attached our companybio below, but please don?t hesitate to ask me any further questions. Lookingforward to hearing from you!?Sincerely,Mary
Mary Abramson
NY Casting Producermary.abramson at nutopia.com
Cell: (917) 969-1537?www.nutopia.com



From tosteve at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 18 14:49:38 2015
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:49:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: WANTED: Computer to rent for a movie
Message-ID: <29184612.973737.1424292578527.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>


I reccived this message from Jose - they want to rent 1980s computers for a movie.?They are located near Montreal, I think. 
Please respond below:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm working on a feature film for Fox Entertainment, in Canada and we are looking for computers dating back to 1983.
Ii was wondering if renting some of them would interest you.
Thank you.
Best regards. 

-- 
Jose Varela 
jfvarela at me.com
514 756 5699

Fox Quebec Productions
1777, Carrie Derick, 3e etage, suite 311
Montreal, Quebec H3C 6G2
?514 613 5852?



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 18 15:03:40 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 13:03:40 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D9E3F6@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E43256.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <7.0.1.0.2.20150218082827.03d40f40@juno.com>
 <54E4C2E4.4000702@sydex.com> <20150218165544.GA12254@brevard.conman.org>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D9E3F6@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <54E4FE2C.8070104@sydex.com>

On 02/18/2015 12:08 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:

<rant>
That's one of the things that bugs me today--there are too many 
incompatible versions of COBOL out there with IBM being one of the 
chiefest offenders, amazingly.

That's what COBOL 75, IIRC, was supposed to eliminate--no "extensions" 
unless specifically enabled.  The Navy audit tests of that time checked 
for "extended" behavior and would fail you if something sneaked through. 
  I mean, in the world of standard COBOL, what the hell is a COMP-5?

FORTRAN at about the same time was suffering similar "vendor enhancement 
creep".  CDC FORTRAN certainly had its share, including one of two 
"enhancements" that could lead to ambiguous statements.  Univac had 
FORTRAN V.  (Internally, IBM initially called PL/O "FORTRAN VI").  It 
was getting pretty bad.

Later FORTRAN/Fortran standards mandated that any standard FORTRAN had 
to have the capability of compiling and running the standard and 
flagging anything not conforming to the standard.

Which was pretty useless.the original author of a program set out from 
the beginning to write a portable program.  Otherwise, the typical 
programmer is going to enable all the bells and whistles and leave it to 
some poor sod in the future to handle cross-platform issues.

BASIC is perhaps the worst.  How many widely-used BASICs conform to 
X3.113-1987?  Visual BASIC?  Ha!

--Chuck




From isking at uw.edu  Wed Feb 18 15:06:06 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 13:06:06 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150218121051.GA31620@mooli.org.uk>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E43256.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20150218121051.GA31620@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ02hirKqOvLmHbF11DwpyrT1Cb0_g0NpJE+USdzawqgcWA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 4:10 AM, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:33:58PM -0700, ben wrote:
> [...]
> > COBOL and FORTRAN in my mind are the main working languages. All the
> others
> > just seem to teach some sort of computer science with the exception C
> that
> > went with UNIX as a package deal.
>
> So, where does Perl fit in? :)
>
> The bit bucket.


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An
engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be.

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Wed Feb 18 15:07:27 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 15:07:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: confirm 0c60d0dc1a8d8488f744c3297b5450c6019d9dc6
In-Reply-To: <201502181647.LAA24435@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <mailman.4869.1424268374.1135.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <20150218141518.GA1807@mooli.org.uk>
 <011101d04b90$d7cdd8b0$87698a10$@classiccmp.org>
 <201502181647.LAA24435@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502181504480.2844@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015, Mouse wrote:

>> 4) I'd love to know how you're getting cctech traffic, since I just 
>> checked and you are most definitely not subscribed to that list. 
>> Perhaps you are referring to cctech posts that are gated to cctalk and 
>> the headers reflect that?  It's valid list traffic.
>
> I don't know about the OP, but I've been getting duplicates of some 
> mail.  (Curiously, according to the Delivered-To: headers, both copies 
> came through cctech, though the rest of the headers, like List-* and 
> X-BeenThere, show cctalk for one copy and cctech for the other.)
>
> I once, back very soon after the list loss-and-recovery, tried to unsub 
> from cctech and the automated system told me I wasn't subscribed - but, 
> IIRC, it was using the envelope-from rather than the header-From: from 
> my mail, so I'm not sure I entirely trust it.
>
> I just now put an example up on ftp.rodents-montreal.org; see 
> /mouse/misc/classiccmp/msg-cctalk.txt and .../msg-cctech.txt for them.

I'm having the same issue. I was subscribed to cctalk only and began 
getting emails from both cctalk and cctech after the list came back 
online. It hasn't bothered me much since I just wrote a procmail rule to 
filter it. I figured it would clear up once the list configuration stuff 
got resolved.

From imp at bsdimp.com  Wed Feb 18 15:08:15 2015
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 14:08:15 -0700
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSAm+yKabiWC4+TerLFF_9WA-_Nct43a2HNT-joQV0zvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>
 <011201d04b91$ae598d70$0b0ca850$@classiccmp.org> <54E4C8E5.3000500@jwsss.com>
 <CAFrGgTSAm+yKabiWC4+TerLFF_9WA-_Nct43a2HNT-joQV0zvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <613A3490-E0FD-465B-9C87-945651734875@bsdimp.com>


> On Feb 18, 2015, at 1:28 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Johannes Thelen <johannesthelen at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I just got HP 2109 E-series which I bought from eBay last week. I was planning
>> to make own tape emulator interface for it, but I found mystery card from it,
> 
> High-resolution photos or scans to allow identification of more of the
> components
> might help with figuring out the likely functionality provided.
> 
> Based on what can be seen, I doubt that the RJ45 is for Ethernet.

I agree. There?s no magnetics for the PHY?.

Warner


From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net  Wed Feb 18 15:18:20 2015
From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 15:18:20 -0600
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <0D7B5EBF9DBB493A802D411273B0C86E@310e2>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <tZWP1p01r4Eo0lz01ZWTcU> <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net>
 <201502180527.AAA17308@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <54E43745.5010204@sydex.com>
 <0D7B5EBF9DBB493A802D411273B0C86E@310e2>
Message-ID: <20150218211819.GA28493@RawFedDogs.net>


On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 03:47:42AM -0500, Mike Stein wrote:

> dBase and the various other xBase languages like FoxBase, FoxPro, Clipper
> etc.
> 
> Folks are often surprised that it is in fact still around, in both 32 and
> 64 bit Windows versions including Windows 8...

There's also Harbour:

    http://Harbour.github.io/


-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

From evan at snarc.net  Wed Feb 18 15:23:13 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 16:23:13 -0500
Subject: WANTED: Computer to rent for a movie
In-Reply-To: <29184612.973737.1424292578527.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <29184612.973737.1424292578527.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <54E502C1.4000801@snarc.net>


> I reccived this message from Jose - they want to rent 1980s computers for a movie.

MARCH and the (Ontario) PC Museum are jointly working on this. It is a 
big project (I'm under NDA and cannot elaborate).

From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Feb 18 15:14:52 2015
From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 21:14:52 -0000
Subject: Cat weasel Yahoo Group reclaim
References: <54E45640.2030503@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <00d601d04bc4$33af15d0$e9b8190a@user8459cef6fa>


I had to do the same thing a few years back in order to gain control of a
videogame related Yahoo Group. However, I was (and still am) moderators and
owner of a few other groups. (You might be too...)

Yahoo groups are quickly filled with spam these days unless you moderate
posts (and members).


Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jwsmobile" <jws at jwsss.com>
To: <General at classiccmp.org>; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 9:07 AM
Subject: Cat weasel Yahoo Group reclaim


> I set up a poll to select a moderator to replace the inactive moderation
> on the Catweasel group.  I know the owner / creator is probably on here,
> and I am doing this per Yahoo instructions to get rid of the spam.
>
> I'm posting here briefly as I'm sure a lot have filtered out the group
> due to the spam.
>
> Here is the poll link:
>
>
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/catweasel/polls/poll/3206349?pollType=ENABLED
>
> The information about this is in a couple of messages on the Yahoo
> groups site.    This is partly an effort to salvage the Catweasel group
> there, and partly an effort to see if Yahoo customer service follows
> thru.  So far they are communicating with me.  I'll let you all know how
> it goes.
>
> I'll end the poll for a new moderator around the end of February, per
> their suggestion.
>
> Thanks
> Jim
>


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Wed Feb 18 16:41:15 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 17:41:15 -0500
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
Message-ID: <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>

On 18/02/15 1:16 AM, emu at e-bbes.com wrote:
> Zitat von Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com>:
>
>> Without getting into the merits of Pascal as a programming language,
>> Turbo Pascal was at that time the best programming environment I'd
>> used, and (with apologies to C.A.R. Hoare) an improvement not only
>> over its predecessors but also over many of its successors.  The
>
> Finally somebody who liked Pascal ;-)
> I enojoyed playing with Pascal/Modula etc.

Pascal is somewhat under-rated (not to mention a litle ahead of its 
time, as it turns out). Maybe this is because, like Lisp, those who 
snark about it are too young to have used it :-)

Apart from anything else, it was the best-supported application and 
systems programming language for Macintosh until the mid-1990s.

--Toby

>
> However, paid jobs were FORTRAN & assembler back then
>


From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Wed Feb 18 16:48:28 2015
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 22:48:28 +0000
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqFEZALK0D1cph0D1S2mRg7ap7cTQjTfn4VZJ0u0J91Orw@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 February 2015 at 22:41, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:

>
> Pascal is somewhat under-rated (not to mention a litle ahead of its time,
> as it turns out). Maybe this is because, like Lisp, those who snark about
> it are too young to have used it :-)
>
> Apart from anything else, it was the best-supported application and
> systems programming language for Macintosh until the mid-1990s.
>
> --Toby
>
> Turbo Pascal was great.  I spent many hundreds and probably thousands of
hours coding with it.

I wouldn't chose to use it now, but back in the day it was the best
development system for CP/M and MS-DOS.



-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 17:05:51 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 18:05:51 -0500
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> Pascal is somewhat under-rated (not to mention a litle ahead of its time, as
> it turns out). Maybe this is because, like Lisp, those who snark about it
> are too young to have used it :-)

I snark about Pascal all the time.  I encountered it in a professional
capacity in 1987.  My employer had two major projects.  One was a new
product, written in Pascal (because that's the language the guy he
hired to write the DOS app knew - I had to write some assembler stuff
for the heavy-lifting), and the other was adapting an existing
custom-built-project (an industrial ultrasonic inspection system) on
TSXplus for the PDP-11 where several jobs, written in Pascal
collected, munged, displayed, and printed the scans.  My task on that
one was to "double the scan density".  Where I learned to hate Pascal
was fighting with formatted I/O streams to support multiple file types
(numbers of "records" per scanline) in the same task.  To shorten the
story, the simplest way out of the tarpit was to dup the display code
and change 768 to 1536 everywhere it appeared and mod the scheduler to
kick the display request to the "display single density scans" task or
the "display double density scans" task as required.

Utterly trivial in languages that trust the programmer to handle
unformatted I/O.

-ethan

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 16:00:26 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 17:00:26 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <tZWP1p01r4Eo0lz01ZWTcU> <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net>
 <201502180527.AAA17308@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <54E43745.5010204@sydex.com> <0D7B5EBF9DBB493A802D411273B0C86E@310e2>
 <20150218211819.GA28493@RawFedDogs.net>
Message-ID: <DC3BD50B417B48BD8AD5E94009320F19@310e2>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kevin Monceaux" <Kevin at RawFedDogs.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: Rich kids are into COBOL


>
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 03:47:42AM -0500, Mike 
> Stein wrote:
>
>> dBase and the various other xBase languages 
>> like FoxBase, FoxPro, Clipper
>> etc.
>>
>> Folks are often surprised that it is in fact 
>> still around, in both 32 and
>> 64 bit Windows versions including Windows 8...
>
> There's also Harbour:
>
>    http://Harbour.github.io/
>
>
> -- 
>
> Kevin
> http://www.RawFedDogs.net
> http://www.Lassie.xyz
> http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
> Bruceville, TX
>
> What's the definition of a legacy system? One 
> that works!
> Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. 


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 18:56:10 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:56:10 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <tZWP1p01r4Eo0lz01ZWTcU> <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net>
 <201502180527.AAA17308@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <54E43745.5010204@sydex.com> <0D7B5EBF9DBB493A802D411273B0C86E@310e2>
 <20150218211819.GA28493@RawFedDogs.net>
Message-ID: <8EF1B61D89AE488FA6C55B0C9D151210@310e2>

Very interesting; hadn't heard of it till now. 
Thanks for the heads-up!

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kevin Monceaux" <Kevin at RawFedDogs.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: Rich kids are into COBOL


>
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 03:47:42AM -0500, Mike 
> Stein wrote:
>
>> dBase and the various other xBase languages 
>> like FoxBase, FoxPro, Clipper
>> etc.
>>
>> Folks are often surprised that it is in fact 
>> still around, in both 32 and
>> 64 bit Windows versions including Windows 8...
>
> There's also Harbour:
>
>    http://Harbour.github.io/
>
>
> -- 
>
> Kevin
> http://www.RawFedDogs.net
> http://www.Lassie.xyz
> http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
> Bruceville, TX
>
> What's the definition of a legacy system? One 
> that works!
> Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. 


From shawn-gordon at cox.net  Wed Feb 18 19:17:18 2015
From: shawn-gordon at cox.net (Shawn Gordon)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 17:17:18 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <tsqq1p0164Eo0lz01sqspS>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E43256.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <7.0.1.0.2.20150218082827.03d40f40@juno.com>
 <tsqq1p0164Eo0lz01sqspS>
Message-ID: <54E5399E.5060601@cox.net>

I love this loop construct. I was just talking to a friend the other day 
about how nice the GO language is, but I lamented that no one has ever 
copied the elegance of the single loop verb in COBOL.

On 2/18/2015 8:50 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Is there any other language (save PL/I for obvious reasons) that has 
> an equivalent to the COBOL PERFORM...THRU statement?
>
> That one always struck me as being a bit offbeat.  Example: Consider a 
> section of a program with 4 consecutive paragraphs, named PARA-1 
> through PARA-4.  One can say in the same program:
>
> PERFORM PARA-1 23 TIMES.
> PERFORM PARA-1 THRU PARA-4.
> PERFORM PARA-1 THRU PARA-2.
> PERFORM PARA-2 THRU PARA-3 WITH TEST AFTER VARYING INDEX-1 FROM 10 BY 
> 3 UNTIL FLAG-1 > 0.
>
> It's that variable scope of a PERFORM that I don't recall seeing in 
> any other language.
>
> --CHuck
>
>
>
>

From shawn-gordon at cox.net  Wed Feb 18 19:18:20 2015
From: shawn-gordon at cox.net (Shawn Gordon)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 17:18:20 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <thTt1p00a4Eo0lz01hTvjx>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <tZWP1p01r4Eo0lz01ZWTcU> <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <thTt1p00a4Eo0lz01hTvjx>
Message-ID: <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>

This was a screen driver I'd written to do pseudo windowing on green 
screen terminals. I thought it would have made more sense and been 
cleaner in C, but it wasn't.

On 2/17/2015 9:27 PM, Mouse wrote:
>> I've rewritten cobol into C a few times when I was a big enthusiast
>> of C and the C code was longer and harder to maintain.
>>      
> That is no surprise to me.  If you were to take code written in C and
> translate it into COBOL, I'd generally expect the COBOL code to be
> longer and harder to maintain, too.
>
> Indeed, I'd expect that for pretty much any pair of languages;
> translating code out of the idiom it was written for generally makes it
> larger and harder to understand.
>
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>   X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>
>    

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 19:20:12 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:20:12 -0600
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd5Ci5zrym=Ls97OPvvTmLkhv52RmV73FvrkTRRSMDfE1w@mail.gmail.com>

I was introduced to Pascal in a high-school AP computer science course ca.
1986. It was a real eye-opener, and seemed quite powerful after only using
BASIC and the occasional chunks of borrowed 6502 ASM.

Personally, I thought it was an excellent teaching language - at least for
HS students in the late 1980s. I really enjoyed learning to use it - though
as someone who'd had almost ten years' time with BASIC, I found the
emphasis on recursive (sub-)routines to be a bit difficult to grasp.
Something about it just seemed... kludge-y. But functions were a very
welcome addition..

Of course, I've forgotten it all!

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 5:05 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
> wrote:
> > Pascal is somewhat under-rated (not to mention a litle ahead of its
> time, as
> > it turns out). Maybe this is because, like Lisp, those who snark about it
> > are too young to have used it :-)
>
> I snark about Pascal all the time.  I encountered it in a professional
> capacity in 1987.  My employer had two major projects.  One was a new
> product, written in Pascal (because that's the language the guy he
> hired to write the DOS app knew - I had to write some assembler stuff
> for the heavy-lifting), and the other was adapting an existing
> custom-built-project (an industrial ultrasonic inspection system) on
> TSXplus for the PDP-11 where several jobs, written in Pascal
> collected, munged, displayed, and printed the scans.  My task on that
> one was to "double the scan density".  Where I learned to hate Pascal
> was fighting with formatted I/O streams to support multiple file types
> (numbers of "records" per scanline) in the same task.  To shorten the
> story, the simplest way out of the tarpit was to dup the display code
> and change 768 to 1536 everywhere it appeared and mod the scheduler to
> kick the display request to the "display single density scans" task or
> the "display double density scans" task as required.
>
> Utterly trivial in languages that trust the programmer to handle
> unformatted I/O.
>
> -ethan
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Feb 18 19:33:39 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:33:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: What resolution should I scan a missing print set at?
Message-ID: <20150219013339.AB73118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

Hi all, I have a PDP-11 print set (MP00196, M9301 Bootstrap/Terminator) which
is not online. I wish to scan my copy, and donate the scan to all the
repositories.  What resolution should I scan it at?

I looked at a couple that are available as TIFFs, and they claim to be 600 dpi
- that can't be right, is it? If it is, no problem, I'm happy to do it at that
resolution, but I just don't want to do silly overkill.

Thanks!

        Noel

From silent700 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 19:39:53 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:39:53 -0600
Subject: What resolution should I scan a missing print set at?
In-Reply-To: <20150219013339.AB73118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150219013339.AB73118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SFpkJPkqhBAvAnmuuFdOMWES_wnp7yjmWRaenYcXOLBmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> Hi all, I have a PDP-11 print set (MP00196, M9301 Bootstrap/Terminator) which
> is not online. I wish to scan my copy, and donate the scan to all the
> repositories.  What resolution should I scan it at?
>
> I looked at a couple that are available as TIFFs, and they claim to be 600 dpi
> - that can't be right, is it? If it is, no problem, I'm happy to do it at that
> resolution, but I just don't want to do silly overkill.

I happen to be in the middle of doing a DEC print set now myself
(assorted 11/04-related docs.)  I find 400dpi B/W is sufficient for
most 11x17 schematics, as long as the original is in good shape (i.e
not a photocopy of a fax of a mimeostat.)  When it doubt, you can
alway go with 600 for specific pages if the 400 scan lacks detail.

We've reached the age of disk and bandwidth being cheap enough that I
don't sweat the size any more, if it means preserving high-quality
images forever.

TIFFs with CCITT G4 compression can be fed into PDFs nicely.  If you
have the real Acrobat, make sure to set the "Convert to PDF" import
settings to the same compression or you may find Acrobat mangling your
images (I use ZIP for grey and color.)

j

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 19:41:45 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 18:41:45 -0700
Subject: What resolution should I scan a missing print set at?
In-Reply-To: <20150219013339.AB73118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150219013339.AB73118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRbbLf7nz6jBG1rud0rSqh6Z--irZFQXWTj3wZ9LkTR9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 6:33 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> Hi all, I have a PDP-11 print set (MP00196, M9301 Bootstrap/Terminator) which
> is not online. I wish to scan my copy, and donate the scan to all the
> repositories.  What resolution should I scan it at?

If it's an original with decent reproduction quality and in B size
(11"x17"), then 300 dpi is adequate, provided that you scan it into a
lossless bilevel image format (e.g., TIFF Class F G3, G4, JBIG, or
JBIG2), which could be embedded into a PDF file.  Please do NOT use
anything that will apply lossy coding intended for continuous-tone
photographs (i.e., JPEG) to it, because that causes horrible artifacts
since JPEG deliberately throws away the high-frequency components and
blurs the edges of lines and text.

> I looked at a couple that are available as TIFFs, and they claim to be 600 dpi
> - that can't be right, is it?

With a lossless bilevel encoding, a 600 dpi scan will definitely be
bigger than 300 dpi, but not absurdly huge.

I'd recommend trying 300 dpi.  If you inspect the scanned images and
find everything easily legible (at least comparable to the paper,
which isn't always terribly legible), then there's no good reason to
go to 600 dpi.

If you're going to submit it to Al for Bitsavers, it's possible that
he might want it as a TIFF file, rather than already wrapped in PDF.
(I don't speak for Al, so I'm only guessing at his preferences, and in
actuality it would be best to check with him.)

Eric

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Wed Feb 18 19:42:18 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:42:18 -0500
Subject: What resolution should I scan a missing print set at?
In-Reply-To: <20150219013339.AB73118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150219013339.AB73118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54E53F7A.4020303@telegraphics.com.au>

On 18/02/15 8:33 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> Hi all, I have a PDP-11 print set (MP00196, M9301 Bootstrap/Terminator) which
> is not online. I wish to scan my copy, and donate the scan to all the
> repositories.  What resolution should I scan it at?
>
> I looked at a couple that are available as TIFFs, and they claim to be 600 dpi
> - that can't be right, is it? If it is, no problem, I'm happy to do it at that
> resolution, but I just don't want to do silly overkill.

For printsets, 600dpi may not be overkill - it is probably about right; 
some of that linework and small text really is spidery. If in doubt, 
scan a page and ask for opinions, though a good rule of thumb is: "When 
viewed pixel to pixel, is all the text and linework completely clear and 
unambiguous or is it breaking up, and hard to decide if that is a B or 
an 8".

--Toby

>
> Thanks!
>
>          Noel
>


From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 19:43:59 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 18:43:59 -0700
Subject: What resolution should I scan a missing print set at?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRbbLf7nz6jBG1rud0rSqh6Z--irZFQXWTj3wZ9LkTR9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150219013339.AB73118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAFrGgTRbbLf7nz6jBG1rud0rSqh6Z--irZFQXWTj3wZ9LkTR9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRcPGkbShJppkJFh19ej6ChWxh76GUTooiDofTb9DwHGA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 6:33 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> Hi all, I have a PDP-11 print set (MP00196, M9301 Bootstrap/Terminator) which
> is not online. I wish to scan my copy, and donate the scan to all the
> repositories.  What resolution should I scan it at?

And I forgot to add, thanks for sharing it!

From silent700 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 19:45:38 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:45:38 -0600
Subject: What resolution should I scan a missing print set at?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRcPGkbShJppkJFh19ej6ChWxh76GUTooiDofTb9DwHGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150219013339.AB73118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAFrGgTRbbLf7nz6jBG1rud0rSqh6Z--irZFQXWTj3wZ9LkTR9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRcPGkbShJppkJFh19ej6ChWxh76GUTooiDofTb9DwHGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SGoz6nF3Y6_5uUnc7tY-aYFhLEmTgb0JpG41s1+L8g-QA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:

> And I forgot to add, thanks for sharing it!

Yes indeed.  The more working on preservation, the better (as long as
they don't use JPEG! :)

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Wed Feb 18 19:52:41 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 01:52:41 +0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTadJeeznc26EaaTzDXvuecPr9Z8r4wfKdjav2qtDnrOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E43256.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <7.0.1.0.2.20150218082827.03d40f40@juno.com>
 <54E4C2E4.4000702@sydex.com> <20150218165544.GA12254@brevard.conman.org>
 <CAFrGgTTadJeeznc26EaaTzDXvuecPr9Z8r4wfKdjav2qtDnrOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DA0AEC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Eric Smith
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 12:36 PM

> On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Sean Conner <spc at conman.org> wrote:

>> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated:

>>> Example: Consider a section of a program with 4 consecutive paragraphs,
>>> named PARA-1 through PARA-4.  One can say in the same program:

>>> PERFORM PARA-1 23 TIMES.

>> Um ...

>>   for i = 1 , 23 do
>>     para_1()
>>     para_2()
>>     para_3()
>>     para_4()
>>   end

> No. In the COBOL example PARA-1 though PARA-4 are consecutive
> paragraphs, not functions that are terminated by a return (explicit or
> implicit).  If you want to think of it as a function, the paragraphs
> are all part of a single function, but both the entry and return
> points of the function are variable, specified by the caller!

Actually, both you and I missed this one, Eric.

It really ought to read

    for i = 1 , 23 do
    	para_1()
    end

because the PERFORM verb only executes multiple (consecutive) paragraphs when
there is an explicit THROUGH clause.

                                                                Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Feb 18 20:03:33 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:03:33 -0600
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd5Ci5zrym=Ls97OPvvTmLkhv52RmV73FvrkTRRSMDfE1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd5Ci5zrym=Ls97OPvvTmLkhv52RmV73FvrkTRRSMDfE1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E54475.5040204@pico-systems.com>

On 02/18/2015 07:20 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> I was introduced to Pascal in a high-school AP computer science course ca.
> 1986. It was a real eye-opener, and seemed quite powerful after only using
> BASIC and the occasional chunks of borrowed 6502 ASM.
>
> Personally, I thought it was an excellent teaching language - at least for
> HS students in the late 1980s.
it was CREATED as a teaching language, and then had to be 
extended a bit
to make it usable for professional tasks.  I loved it, and 
created several
significant pieces of code on it.
>   I really enjoyed learning to use it - though
> as someone who'd had almost ten years' time with BASIC, I found the
> emphasis on recursive (sub-)routines to be a bit difficult to grasp.
> Something about it just seemed... kludge-y. But functions were a very
> welcome addition..
>
> Of course, I've forgotten it all!
>
I hadn't used Pascal for ages, but recently ported a Gerber 
to raster conversion
program that I had written in Borland's Turbo Pascal on 
Windown 95 and NT
to run under Linux.  Just in time, Free Pascal (FPC) came 
out.  It was specifically
designed to run old Turbo Pascal and DEC Pascal programs 
with minimal
changes.

I must say that what I knew of Pascal came back VERY 
quickly, and the only
problems I had were converting a few really oddball 
constructs I used
in the old Turbo Pascal program to more modern methods.  (I 
used some
weird tricks when allocating large chunks of memory for 
raster buffers and
bitmaps.)

Jon

From dave at 661.org  Wed Feb 18 20:15:15 2015
From: dave at 661.org (Dave G.)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 02:15:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: P112 kit still available
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502190214410.29924@nyx.feedle.net>


In case anyone is wondering, I still have a P112 kit for sale.  $197 
shipped in the US.

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 20:21:49 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:21:49 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DA0AEC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E43256.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150218082827.03d40f40@juno.com>
 <54E4C2E4.4000702@sydex.com>
 <20150218165544.GA12254@brevard.conman.org>
 <CAFrGgTTadJeeznc26EaaTzDXvuecPr9Z8r4wfKdjav2qtDnrOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DA0AEC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTR3=YMPPywPd7kt3dHGK5pwJ5LMfubo4ruNhCMBpLGDDg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 6:52 PM, Rich Alderson
<RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:
> Actually, both you and I missed this one, Eric.

Point taken.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 20:32:31 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:32:31 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTR1+hva9AbtFD1a_xj_dncG3LxM4EwXyYyY2co5sLczdg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:54 AM, Roe Peterson <roeapeterson at gmail.com> wrote:
> I wouldn't wish a COBOL career on my worst enemy.  What a god-awful mess.

I won't say that COBOL is great now, though arguably it was pretty
great back in 1959 and the early 1960s.  However, it's also not nearly
as awful as most people make it out to be.

Without the COMPUTE verb it would be truly terrible. I was formerly
under the mistaken impression that COMPUTE was not part of the early
standard but something added later. However, I just verified that
COMPUTE was in the 1960 report.

It also helps that COBOL development is in general no longer done with
paragraphs actually written like natural language paragraphs. Ugh.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 20:53:42 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:53:42 -0700
Subject: cost of low-quantity PCBs with hard gold over nickel edge card
 connectors
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSgKmAe8Tw1NL-SeGok6fq_GiYCi3UrW1QdB5OK=NdR9g@mail.gmail.com>

I'm seeking input from the various people that have in recent times
made PCBs to plug into old microcomputers and minicomputers using PCB
edge card connectors.  There are quite a few companies (and coops)
that offer very inexpensive PCB fab service, even in low volumes,
particular for double-sided PCBs (vs. multilayer). However, I haven't
found a PCB fab house that offers any reasonable deal on low volume
runs of PCBs with plating of hard-gold over nickel edge connectors.
Has anyone found a vendor that does?

I was somewhat surprised at the difficulty in tracking down good
information on best practices for PCB edge fingers. Several of the PCB
companies suggested just using an ENIG (electroless nickel immersion
gold) on the whole PCB, including the edge card connector, but that
isn't really suitable. According to an excerpt of a draft of the
IPC-4522 standard, ENIG gold is typically only 0.025 to 0.05 microns,
and is not suitable for edge finger use for more than five
insert/remove cycles. (It would be perfectly acceptable to have ENIG,
HASL, or tin finish on the rest of the board.)

A document from AMP recommends 0.4, 0.8, or 1.3 microns of hard gold
over nickel, to withstand 200, 1000, and 2000 cycles before failure,
respectively.

The IPC-2221 standard suggests three categories:

Class 1:  0.8 micron gold over 2.0 micron nickel, for general
electronic products
Class 2:  0.8 micron gold over 2.5 micron nickel, for dedicated
service electronic products
Class 3:  1.3 micron gold over 2.5 micron nickel, for high-reliability
electronic products.

The PCIe specs require 0.7 micron gold over 1.2 micron nickel.

I'm perfectly willing to build prototypes for my own personal use
using ENIG or even HASL with nothing special for the edge fingers, and
be resigned to them not withstanding many cycles.  However, if I were
to offer a product for sale to other hobbyists, I don't think that
would be acceptable.

I suspect that the original PCI specs had a similar requirement to
PCIe.  I estimate that a 32-bit PCI edge card requires about 1300 mm^2
of gold over nickel (counting both sides of the PCB), which works out
to a little less than 1 mm^3 overall, which at recent gold pricing
would be about USD $0.80 in gold. An Apple II card would probably have
a roughly similar amount of gold, while S-100, Qbus, Omnibus,
Multibus, etc. cards would require several times that. I'd be
delighted if in small volume I could pay less than an additional $25
each to get the hard gold over nickel edge connector, but so far I
haven't found a PCB fab comes even close to that.

Eric

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Feb 18 21:09:51 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 21:09:51 -0600
Subject: cost of low-quantity PCBs with hard gold over nickel edge card
 connectors
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSgKmAe8Tw1NL-SeGok6fq_GiYCi3UrW1QdB5OK=NdR9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSgKmAe8Tw1NL-SeGok6fq_GiYCi3UrW1QdB5OK=NdR9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E553FF.4070805@pico-systems.com>

On 02/18/2015 08:53 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> I'm seeking input from the various people that have in recent times
> made PCBs to plug into old microcomputers and minicomputers using PCB
> edge card connectors.  There are quite a few companies (and coops)
> that offer very inexpensive PCB fab service, even in low volumes,
> particular for double-sided PCBs (vs. multilayer). However, I haven't
> found a PCB fab house that offers any reasonable deal on low volume
> runs of PCBs with plating of hard-gold over nickel edge connectors.
> Has anyone found a vendor that does?
>
>
I use E-Teknet in Arizona almost exclusively.  They are 
quite reasonable for
generic boards.  They DO charge extra for gold fingers.  I 
haven't had any
gold finger boards done recently, but I think it will add 
$50 - $100 to the
cost of a small lot of boards.

Jon

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 21:15:53 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:15:53 -0700
Subject: cost of low-quantity PCBs with hard gold over nickel edge card
 connectors
In-Reply-To: <54E553FF.4070805@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSgKmAe8Tw1NL-SeGok6fq_GiYCi3UrW1QdB5OK=NdR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E553FF.4070805@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTXxjrk0vkHHPrnE1gkVP048hPtxiukZr+N=1hV9PBqgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 8:09 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
> I use E-Teknet in Arizona almost exclusively.  They are quite reasonable for
> generic boards.  They DO charge extra for gold fingers.  I haven't had any
> gold finger boards done recently, but I think it will add $50 - $100 to the
> cost of a small lot of boards.

Thanks for the tip. A $50-100 adder for a small lot suits me just fine.

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 18 21:18:37 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:18:37 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <tZWP1p01r4Eo0lz01ZWTcU> <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <thTt1p00a4Eo0lz01hTvjx>
 <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
Message-ID: <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com>

One thing that some folks missed was that you can run COBOL quite 
successfully on a variable word-length, decimal machine.

Anyone know of a C that runs on a 1401 or even a 7080?  Packed 
variable-length decimal?

Hmmmm...

--Chuck



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Feb 18 21:34:44 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:34:44 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <tZWP1p01r4Eo0lz01ZWTcU> <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <thTt1p00a4Eo0lz01hTvjx>
 <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/18/2015 8:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> One thing that some folks missed was that you can run COBOL quite
> successfully on a variable word-length, decimal machine.
>
> Anyone know of a C that runs on a 1401 or even a 7080?  Packed
> variable-length decimal?
>
Are any those machines still up and running?

> Hmmmm...
>
> --Chuck
>
Ben.


From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 21:52:14 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:52:14 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTT2qJifBrv4xRi1N=4sYDVOBtAXQV9WYujE3rNjCFD1Eg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> Anyone know of a C that runs on a 1401 or even a 7080?  Packed
> variable-length decimal?

The C standard was deliberately written to be usable on
one's-complement and sign-magnitude binary machines, in addition to
the now-ubiquitous two's-complement, but I'm pretty certain that the
data type requirements of the standard can't be met on a natively
decimal machine. For example, you could define an effectively 8-bit
char type, but it wouldn't be the case that all of the other data
types could be composed only of legal char values. (Unless you
actually simulated all of the data types in that way.)

You could have a non-standard-compliant but very C-like language. I
haven't heard of it being done on a natively decimal machine, whether
fixed- or variable- word length.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 21:53:19 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:53:19 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 8:34 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
> On 2/18/2015 8:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> One thing that some folks missed was that you can run COBOL quite
>> successfully on a variable word-length, decimal machine.
>>
>> Anyone know of a C that runs on a 1401 or even a 7080?  Packed
>> variable-length decimal?
>>
> Are any those machines still up and running?

Yes, there is at least one 1401 that is routinely up and running, at CHM.

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 21:56:06 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 22:56:06 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>

I would not call the CHM 1401 a production machine.

There might be a System/3 still in real service (at least there was
about four or five years ago).

--
Will

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 10:53 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 8:34 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
>> On 2/18/2015 8:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>> One thing that some folks missed was that you can run COBOL quite
>>> successfully on a variable word-length, decimal machine.
>>>
>>> Anyone know of a C that runs on a 1401 or even a 7080?  Packed
>>> variable-length decimal?
>>>
>> Are any those machines still up and running?
>
> Yes, there is at least one 1401 that is routinely up and running, at CHM.

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Wed Feb 18 22:02:32 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:02:32 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E54475.5040204@pico-systems.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd5Ci5zrym=Ls97OPvvTmLkhv52RmV73FvrkTRRSMDfE1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E54475.5040204@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <54E56058.4010309@shiresoft.com>


On 2/18/15 6:03 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/18/2015 07:20 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
>> I was introduced to Pascal in a high-school AP computer science 
>> course ca.
>> 1986. It was a real eye-opener, and seemed quite powerful after only 
>> using
>> BASIC and the occasional chunks of borrowed 6502 ASM.
>>
>> Personally, I thought it was an excellent teaching language - at 
>> least for
>> HS students in the late 1980s.
> it was CREATED as a teaching language, and then had to be extended a bit
> to make it usable for professional tasks.  I loved it, and created 
> several
> significant pieces of code on it.
>>   I really enjoyed learning to use it - though
>> as someone who'd had almost ten years' time with BASIC, I found the
>> emphasis on recursive (sub-)routines to be a bit difficult to grasp.
>> Something about it just seemed... kludge-y. But functions were a very
>> welcome addition..
>>
>> Of course, I've forgotten it all!
>>
> I hadn't used Pascal for ages, but recently ported a Gerber to raster 
> conversion
> program that I had written in Borland's Turbo Pascal on Windown 95 and NT
> to run under Linux.  Just in time, Free Pascal (FPC) came out.  It was 
> specifically
> designed to run old Turbo Pascal and DEC Pascal programs with minimal
> changes.
>
> I must say that what I knew of Pascal came back VERY quickly, and the 
> only
> problems I had were converting a few really oddball constructs I used
> in the old Turbo Pascal program to more modern methods.  (I used some
> weird tricks when allocating large chunks of memory for raster buffers 
> and
> bitmaps.)
Back in the late 70's and early 80's I was busily writing a number of 
different
Pascal compilers including one that I wrote while I was at IBM (I think 
that was
number 6).

Bill Maddox had actually unearthed one of my middle Pascal compilers that I
wrote while an undergrad at CMU along with all of the documentation.  The
claim to fame of that compiler was the development/documentation of the
stack machine (and associated tools, including an interpreter) that was the
target of the compiler.  All of it was written in Pascal.

A later version (and significantly restructured/rewritten) was to have an
interpreted stack machine that would be run on C.MMP.  That version is
at this point lost to the mists of time.  :-(

BTW, all 6 of the Pascal compilers that I wrote were all written in Pascal,
used recursive decent parsers and were self hosted (that is the compiler
when working would compile itself) which was a great test of the entire
tool chain.  ;-)

TTFN - Guy


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb 19 01:21:10 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 23:21:10 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com>

On 02/18/2015 07:56 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
> I would not call the CHM 1401 a production machine.
>
> There might be a System/3 still in real service (at least there was
> about four or five years ago).

The point is that COBOL, FORTRAN, Algol, etc. get a bad rap.  Look what 
they had to run on--you can't do that with C or several other more 
contemporary languages.

Which brings up the question "Do you design a machine to run a language 
or design a language to run on a machine?"  That appears to have changed 
over the last 30-40 years.  Are we poorer for that?

The financial world didn't seem to mind decimal machines.  Are we going 
to make a dollar (or Euro) equal to 128 cents to accommodate radix-2 
machines?

--Chuck





From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Feb 19 01:40:24 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 00:40:24 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54E59368.6020308@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/19/2015 12:21 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/18/2015 07:56 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
>> I would not call the CHM 1401 a production machine.
>>
>> There might be a System/3 still in real service (at least there was
>> about four or five years ago).
>
> The point is that COBOL, FORTRAN, Algol, etc. get a bad rap.  Look what
> they had to run on--you can't do that with C or several other more
> contemporary languages.

In the late 50's you just got color TV. I suspect nobody
thought of computers hooked up to that then.



> Which brings up the question "Do you design a machine to run a language
> or design a language to run on a machine?"  That appears to have changed
> over the last 30-40 years.  Are we poorer for that?

I think so, with the advent of 8 bit computers.The problem is like 
inflation, cheaper money or cheaper logic to bring down the standard
of what is needed logically in a system.


> The financial world didn't seem to mind decimal machines.  Are we going
> to make a dollar (or Euro) equal to 128 cents to accommodate radix-2
> machines?

The Euro is 1.12345% over the the US Dollar. Looks like REAL to me.


> --Chuck
>
Ben.



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Feb 19 05:54:23 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 05:54:23 -0600
Subject: Equipment Available (claimed)
Message-ID: <011d01d04c3a$cdffec60$69ffc520$@classiccmp.org>

The PDP-11/03 with expansion chassis and RX01 in Sydney Australia has been
claimed.

 

J


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Feb 19 06:00:40 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 06:00:40 -0600
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <613A3490-E0FD-465B-9C87-945651734875@bsdimp.com>
References: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>
 <011201d04b91$ae598d70$0b0ca850$@classiccmp.org> <54E4C8E5.3000500@jwsss.com>
 <CAFrGgTSAm+yKabiWC4+TerLFF_9WA-_Nct43a2HNT-joQV0zvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <613A3490-E0FD-465B-9C87-945651734875@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <012701d04c3b$ae8dbb90$0ba932b0$@classiccmp.org>

So did you get any type of storage device or media with the machine? If so, boot it up and see what drivers and such are there?

J



From scaron at umich.edu  Wed Feb 18 10:24:04 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 11:24:04 -0500
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUOW4JiJhLrjb7d3yYqNKJbhowN71g6cNsrCuBGVxrN7g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Johannes,

I see a Symbios Logic SCSI chip and the usual connector there so you've
definitely got SCSI.

What are those Zilog ICs? Any SCCs there? Or maybe just a little Z80 to run
the card... That could provide further insight.

What I don't see is any sort of Ethernet IC, nor do I see any of the usual
accoutrements of a 10 Base-T PHY... not that you couldn't implement
Ethernet in a PLD but I don't see what the design case would have been for
that and even if that were the case, I still don't see any of the
supporting discrete miscellanea (i.e. where's the DC-to-DC converter?)

To know for sure, you can try to follow the traces on that 8-pin keystone
jack and see where they go... if they land on a line driver or something,
that's a pretty strong hint as to what it is.

My guess is it's a SCSI card, perhaps with a little serial interface that
you can hook a TTY up to to configure and manage the card, as was done on
some Q-bus SCSI cards.

Best,

Sean



On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 3:07 PM, Johannes Thelen <johannesthelen at hotmail.com
> wrote:

>
> Hello!
>
> I just got HP 2109 E-series which I bought from eBay last week. I was
> planning to make own tape emulator interface for it, but I found mystery
> card from it, and it could solve some of data transfering problems...
> Here's pictures of it:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DR111cK6W-M0FPSnR4VmRDR3M/view?usp=sharinghttps://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DR111cK6W-Rm5FWFFueTd1eEE/view?usp=sharing
> It seems to be from 1995  what I can guess from chip date codes, but
> theres no any manufacturers logos. As you can see pic, there is RJ45 and
> SCSI connectors. Is this somekind of emulator board for disk drive..? Can
> it used with PC (like old NetBEUI protocol) or is this for some
> very-special-made-for-very-special-communication-software?
> Computer itself is from Navy's Radcom station (made by Grumman Aerospace
> Division), maybe somebody knows more of this system...
>
> - Johannes Thelen
>
> Old computer blog (Finnish)
> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/Company site  www.thelentech.fi
>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Wed Feb 18 15:30:25 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 16:30:25 -0500
Subject: WANTED: Computer to rent for a movie
In-Reply-To: <54E502C1.4000801@snarc.net>
References: <29184612.973737.1424292578527.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <54E502C1.4000801@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkX-nGxD9-djsVOfeo=ESN3Ss4sLEAJpL5Q7OcPQK+otNg@mail.gmail.com>

I hope it's not a 2015 rehash of Wargames. LOL.

Best,

Sean


On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> wrote:

>
>  I reccived this message from Jose - they want to rent 1980s computers for
>> a movie.
>>
>
> MARCH and the (Ontario) PC Museum are jointly working on this. It is a big
> project (I'm under NDA and cannot elaborate).
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Wed Feb 18 17:18:11 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 18:18:11 -0500
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUXpA-GHNXhMdnGP4ZQEKRC7P1phXoJBrztd4fpEGLB+w@mail.gmail.com>

I found Pascal a useful bridge between BASIC and "real programming
languages" (really C, I guess) when I was quite young. So as an pedagogical
language, I would say served me well. I will echo, as a kid who had a Mac
growing up, it was a lot easier to figure out the Toolbox bindings in
Pascal when I was playing with producing GUI apps! Saved having to convert
string formats as well :O

Best,

Sean


On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
wrote:

> On 18/02/15 1:16 AM, emu at e-bbes.com wrote:
>
>> Zitat von Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com>:
>>
>>  Without getting into the merits of Pascal as a programming language,
>>> Turbo Pascal was at that time the best programming environment I'd
>>> used, and (with apologies to C.A.R. Hoare) an improvement not only
>>> over its predecessors but also over many of its successors.  The
>>>
>>
>> Finally somebody who liked Pascal ;-)
>> I enojoyed playing with Pascal/Modula etc.
>>
>
> Pascal is somewhat under-rated (not to mention a litle ahead of its time,
> as it turns out). Maybe this is because, like Lisp, those who snark about
> it are too young to have used it :-)
>
> Apart from anything else, it was the best-supported application and
> systems programming language for Macintosh until the mid-1990s.
>
> --Toby
>
>
>> However, paid jobs were FORTRAN & assembler back then
>>
>>
>

From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Thu Feb 19 08:24:14 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 14:24:14 +0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com>
References: <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 11:21:10PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/18/2015 07:56 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
>> I would not call the CHM 1401 a production machine. There might be a
>> System/3 still in real service (at least there was about four or five years
>> ago).
> The point is that COBOL, FORTRAN, Algol, etc. get a bad rap. Look what they
> had to run on--you can't do that with C or several other more contemporary
> languages.

C will run on all sorts of bizarre machines, but somebody has to bother to
implement it, and if the architecture is weird enough that the language has to
be contorted in unexpected ways, it will break assumptions made in typical C
code. ISTR that current versions of the standard assume a binary machine that
provides particular word width, but earlier versions give much more
flexibility.

That modern compilers don't support obsolete machines isn't a surprise. I can't
find a decent modern C compiler that targets m68k, for example, even though
that architecture is still just about clinging on to life.

> Which brings up the question "Do you design a machine to run a language or
> design a language to run on a machine?" That appears to have changed over the
> last 30-40 years. Are we poorer for that?

Modern CPU architectures all appear to have been designed to run C or languages
with much the same memory model. This seems so ingrained that it doesn't appear
to occur to software developers that there are other potential schemes. This is
a great loss on both fronts.

> The financial world didn't seem to mind decimal machines. Are we going to
> make a dollar (or Euro) equal to 128 cents to accommodate radix-2 machines?

You can do decimal and fixed-point arithmetic on contemporary binary machines
just fine, but there's just no hardware acceleration[0][1]. Or just go full
gonzo and use floats and hope that the rounding errors don't become
significant, which is sadly all too common.


[0] Although I note that divide-by-constant is most typically implemented by
    modern compilers as a fixed-point multiply-by-reciprocal.

[1] x86-64 doesn't support BCD in long mode and repurposes the opcodes. This is
    no great loss given how half-arsed x86's BCD support was.


From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Feb 19 10:22:22 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:22:22 -0600
Subject: Replacement for Google's broken Usenet group search
In-Reply-To: <528C0A64.2030600@bitsavers.org>
References: <528C0A64.2030600@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <mailman.34.1424363702.1134.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 07:03 PM 11/19/2013, Al Kossow wrote:
>They seem to have broken it sufficiently now that nothing is returned after the end of October. Is there anyone indexing Usenet that has a clue? It seems like all that is left is for-pay services for searching alt.binaries.

Is there some definitive web statement that explains the fate of
all the historical Usenet archives (once of Dejanews) that were 
once available under Google Groups?  Where did their archive go?

This is as close as I found:

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/google-a-search-company-has-made-its-internet-archive-impossible-to-search

I think it's worse than that...  Never mind the complex searches...
A search for words that I know were once there now returns nothing.

- John


From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Feb 19 10:27:43 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:27:43 -0600
Subject: Jim Drew's SuperCard Pro?
Message-ID: <mailman.35.1424363807.1134.cctalk@classiccmp.org>


I asked about the "DiskVaccuum" two days ago and got no response.
That project caused a handful of messages here a year ago, but no more.

Any opinions on Jim Drew's SuperCard Pro disk-reading device?

It was recommended to me by Cloanto, the Amiga emulator place,
for archiving my Amiga floppies.  

$99, USB on a PC, seemingly nice manual.  I'd like it to handle 8" inch 
drives, too, but it looks like I'll need to ask about that, as they 
didn't say more than "it should work."

http://www.cbmstuff.com/proddetail.php?prod=SCP

- John


From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Feb 19 10:26:23 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:26:23 -0600
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.36.1424363812.1134.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 05:05 PM 2/18/2015, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>I snark about Pascal all the time.  I encountered it in a professional
>capacity in 1987.  [...]
>Utterly trivial in languages that trust the programmer to handle
>unformatted I/O.

All true, but doesn't it make you wonder why Turbo Pascal
was such a popular development environment for the PC for so long?

Was it the sheer will power and marketing of Borland, or was
it the volume of developers who didn't need intensive low-level I/O?

By '85, there were several C compilers for the PC and I even
remember using Gimpel C-terp, a C interpreter that made development
and debugging easier.

- John


From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Thu Feb 19 10:31:32 2015
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (mark firestone)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 16:31:32 +0000
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150219163651.E3C3F2073E9B@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163651.E3C3F2073E9B@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <54e60fee.aadbc20a.5895.2397@mx.google.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: "John Foust" <jfoust at threedee.com>
Sent: ?19/?02/?2015 16:28
To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL

At 05:05 PM 2/18/2015, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>I snark about Pascal all the time.  I encountered it in a professional
>capacity in 1987.  [...]
>Utterly trivial in languages that trust the programmer to handle
>unformatted I/O.

All true, but doesn't it make you wonder why Turbo Pascal
was such a popular development environment for the PC for so long?

Was it the sheer will power and marketing of Borland, or was
it the volume of developers who didn't need intensive low-level I/O?

By '85, there were several C compilers for the PC and I even
remember using Gimpel C-terp, a C interpreter that made development
and debugging easier.

- John


From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Thu Feb 19 10:33:49 2015
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 11:33:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150219163651.DDEC02073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca> <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163651.DDEC02073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502191133130.50467@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, John Foust wrote:

> At 05:05 PM 2/18/2015, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>> I snark about Pascal all the time.  I encountered it in a professional
>> capacity in 1987.  [...]
>> Utterly trivial in languages that trust the programmer to handle
>> unformatted I/O.
>
> All true, but doesn't it make you wonder why Turbo Pascal
> was such a popular development environment for the PC for so long?>
> Was it the sheer will power and marketing of Borland, or was
> it the volume of developers who didn't need intensive low-level I/O?

    It was fast, easy to use, and inexpensive.


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Feb 19 10:40:23 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:40:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca> <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, John Foust wrote:

> Was it the sheer will power and marketing of Borland, or was
> it the volume of developers who didn't need intensive low-level I/O?
>
I suspect it was Borland's extensions to Pascal that removed any 
limitation in I/O.

I think people confuse Turbo Pascal with "standard" Pascal.  Turbo brought 
a LOT to the table that you simply coudln't do with a standardized Pascal 
compiler.  Borland never quit tweaking the language - Object Pascal hit 
with the 5.5 release of Turbo Pascal and that was improved upon even 
further with the 6.0 and 7.0 releases.  When Delphi hit the market in 
1995, it really blew people away.  Had Borland's management not run the 
company into the ground, Delphi would be a lot more popular than it is 
today.  Fortunately they used their last functioning brain cell to spin 
their developer tools off to CodeGear in 2007.  Embarcadero purchased them 
a while after that and have continued to improve upon the product - both 
Delphi and C++ Builder.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Feb 19 10:43:31 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:43:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502191133130.50467@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca> <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163651.DDEC02073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502191133130.50467@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190842470.10769@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, Mike Loewen wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, John Foust wrote:
>
>> At 05:05 PM 2/18/2015, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>> I snark about Pascal all the time.  I encountered it in a professional
>>> capacity in 1987.  [...]
>>> Utterly trivial in languages that trust the programmer to handle
>>> unformatted I/O.
>> 
>> All true, but doesn't it make you wonder why Turbo Pascal
>> was such a popular development environment for the PC for so long?>
>> Was it the sheer will power and marketing of Borland, or was
>> it the volume of developers who didn't need intensive low-level I/O?
>
>   It was fast, easy to use, and inexpensive.

It also did a pretty good job of wiping the floor with every other 
compiler out there, regardless of language.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Feb 19 10:51:25 2015
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:51:25 -0700
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502191133130.50467@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163651.DDEC02073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502191133130.50467@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <EC3BB9C1-1E64-4F57-9387-58044A5D9B09@bsdimp.com>


> On Feb 19, 2015, at 9:33 AM, Mike Loewen <mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, John Foust wrote:
> 
>> At 05:05 PM 2/18/2015, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>> I snark about Pascal all the time.  I encountered it in a professional
>>> capacity in 1987.  [...]
>>> Utterly trivial in languages that trust the programmer to handle
>>> unformatted I/O.
>> 
>> All true, but doesn't it make you wonder why Turbo Pascal
>> was such a popular development environment for the PC for so long?>
>> Was it the sheer will power and marketing of Borland, or was
>> it the volume of developers who didn't need intensive low-level I/O?
> 
>   It was fast, easy to use, and inexpensive.

It didn?t completely suck in an era where most other alternatives did.

There were no C compilers worth a damn, and those that were available
were too slow or too limited.

It provided unformatted I/O extensions.

It provided access to the raw machine in lots of interesting ways.

It had common libraries for the common low-level accesses that you?d
want.

It was mostly ?C?ish enough that you could get s*t done quickly and efficiently.

There was some really bizarre stuff, but I wrote a lot of pascal utilities for
my DEC Rainbow back in the day that were impossible with the other tools
available at the time.

Then Turbo C and Turbo C++ came out and did all this plus compiled all
the unix code floating around and I dropped Turbo Pascal like a hot potato.

Warner

From jason at textfiles.com  Thu Feb 19 10:53:34 2015
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:53:34 -0800
Subject: Jim Drew's SuperCard Pro?
In-Reply-To: <20150219165943.7C0FD2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <20150219165943.7C0FD2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd3fkbH9EiNR2puuTms-cVdxpFarNS1mCtDMAvDYU7v7eA@mail.gmail.com>

I like Jim Drew and I own one, but I can't vouch for its operation.

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 8:27 AM, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:

>
> I asked about the "DiskVaccuum" two days ago and got no response.
> That project caused a handful of messages here a year ago, but no more.
>
> Any opinions on Jim Drew's SuperCard Pro disk-reading device?
>
> It was recommended to me by Cloanto, the Amiga emulator place,
> for archiving my Amiga floppies.
>
> $99, USB on a PC, seemingly nice manual.  I'd like it to handle 8" inch
> drives, too, but it looks like I'll need to ask about that, as they
> didn't say more than "it should work."
>
> http://www.cbmstuff.com/proddetail.php?prod=SCP
>
> - John
>
>

From jason at textfiles.com  Thu Feb 19 10:53:34 2015
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:53:34 -0800
Subject: Jim Drew's SuperCard Pro?
In-Reply-To: <20150219165943.7C0FD2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <20150219165943.7C0FD2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd3fkbH9EiNR2puuTms-cVdxpFarNS1mCtDMAvDYU7v7eA@mail.gmail.com>

I like Jim Drew and I own one, but I can't vouch for its operation.

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 8:27 AM, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:

>
> I asked about the "DiskVaccuum" two days ago and got no response.
> That project caused a handful of messages here a year ago, but no more.
>
> Any opinions on Jim Drew's SuperCard Pro disk-reading device?
>
> It was recommended to me by Cloanto, the Amiga emulator place,
> for archiving my Amiga floppies.
>
> $99, USB on a PC, seemingly nice manual.  I'd like it to handle 8" inch
> drives, too, but it looks like I'll need to ask about that, as they
> didn't say more than "it should work."
>
> http://www.cbmstuff.com/proddetail.php?prod=SCP
>
> - John
>
>

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Feb 19 11:10:05 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 12:10:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
References: <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <201502191710.MAA06008@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> ISTR that current versions of the [C] standard assume a binary
> machine that provides particular word width, but earlier versions
> give much more flexibility.

Current C does require a binary machine - there are various constraints
which collectively require that everything be made up of bits - but I
think the only word width constraints are minimums.  (In practice, of
course, trying to run with, say, 9-bit chars, 18-bit ints, and 36-bit
longs is likely to break a Whole Lot of software.)

I've occasionally toyed with the idea of building a `code checkout'
compiler, one which goes out of its way to break various assumptions
which are not promised by the language but are nevertheless true of the
obvious implementation on all even vaguely common machines.  (For
example, void * and char * would be larger than, and use a different
representation from, other pointer types.)

>> Which brings up the question "Do you design a machine to run a
>> language or design a language to run on a machine?" That appears to
>> have changed over the last 30-40 years.  Are we poorer for that?

Not for that per se.  But I think we _are_ poorer for the monocultures
it's led to.  (I consider pretty much _any_ monoculture a bad thing.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Feb 19 11:17:06 2015
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:17:06 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <201502191710.MAA06008@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <201502191710.MAA06008@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <EB81D66D-AABA-4BF0-9186-83197F96B7DE@bsdimp.com>


> On Feb 19, 2015, at 10:10 AM, Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG> wrote:
> I've occasionally toyed with the idea of building a `code checkout'
> compiler, one which goes out of its way to break various assumptions
> which are not promised by the language but are nevertheless true of the
> obvious implementation on all even vaguely common machines.  (For
> example, void * and char * would be larger than, and use a different
> representation from, other pointer types.)

clang already does that, even for perfectly well defined constructs that the
clang folks got outlawed in the standards process. :(

Warner


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb 19 11:44:29 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:44:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>

> Was it the sheer will power and marketing of Borland, or was
> it the volume of developers who didn't need intensive low-level I/O?

Or,
cheap and usable integrated development environment.
My students tended to be intimidated by EDIT, COMPILE, and LINK as three
separate programs to run from the prompt.

'course then I had to remind them an awful lot of times that the
assignment required SAVING a source file (and it had to be the final
version, not an earlier draft) and create an executable file on their
disk, not just test run it in the IDE.  I even made them print out the
relevant portion of the directory, and kicked back a lot of submissions
where the executable file and source file did not have appropriate
sequence.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 11:49:54 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 12:49:54 -0500
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502191133130.50467@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
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Message-ID: <CAALmimn2OyvTDGSh_U7vQ_m81jbtsEeGNkMtyyVB=Y+XMA4Wsw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Mike Loewen
<mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us> wrote:
>> All true, but doesn't it make you wonder why Turbo Pascal
>> was such a popular development environment for the PC for so long?>
>
>    It was fast, easy to use, and inexpensive.

It was certainly a lot cheaper than a C compiler.  I paid real money
for Lattice/SAS C for the Amiga in the 1980s.

-ethan

From radiotest at juno.com  Thu Feb 19 12:03:23 2015
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:03:23 -0500
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
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Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>

At 12:44 PM 2/19/2015, Fred Cisin wrote:

>Or, cheap and usable integrated development environment.

I think Fred has nailed it. AFAIK Turbo Pascal had the first integrated development environment among CP/M software development systems.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb 19 12:04:31 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:04:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <EC3BB9C1-1E64-4F57-9387-58044A5D9B09@bsdimp.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
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Message-ID: <20150219095502.V60986@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, Warner Losh wrote:
> Then Turbo C and Turbo C++ came out and did all this plus compiled all
> the unix code floating around and I dropped Turbo Pascal like a hot potato.

At the West Coast Computer Faire, when Turbo Pascal was released,
Phillipe was deluged by continuous questions of "What about C?".
Phillipe repeated over and over and over, "NO, THIS is Pascal."
He got asked so many times, that by lunchtime, he changed his
answer to, "C will be coming soon; we are working on it."

Does anybody remember who originally wrote Turbo Pascal?
Were they involved, at all, in Turbo C?

By the millenium, [an early version?] Turbo C was available
for free download, so most of my students were using it.
I forced my students to do at least one assignment using a command
line compiler (GCC and/or DeSmet "Personal C" recommended)
even if they wanted to do everything else in IDE.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 12:07:25 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:07:25 -0500
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
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On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Dale H. Cook <radiotest at juno.com> wrote:
> At 12:44 PM 2/19/2015, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>>Or, cheap and usable integrated development environment.
>
> I think Fred has nailed it. AFAIK Turbo Pascal had the first integrated development environment among CP/M software development systems.

I know the guy I worked with in 1987 loved the IDE.  He was one of
those "what do you mean there are different programs to edit, compile,
link, and run?!?" guys.

I got my start with banging hex into TIM then moved up to a 4K in-ROM
line-at-a-time assembler, _then_ got a disk drive and an
editor/assembler environment.  Game programming that took over the
machine meant a reset/reboot every code cycle, so an IDE doesn't
really fit into that environment.

-ethan

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb 19 12:11:32 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:11:32 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
References: <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com>

On 02/19/2015 06:24 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:

> C will run on all sorts of bizarre machines, but somebody has to bother to
> implement it, and if the architecture is weird enough that the language has to
> be contorted in unexpected ways, it will break assumptions made in typical C
> code. ISTR that current versions of the standard assume a binary machine that
> provides particular word width, but earlier versions give much more
> flexibility.

Do let me know when you've got C for an IBM 1620.  SIMH has a pretty 
good emulator for that machine.

> That modern compilers don't support obsolete machines isn't a surprise. I can't
> find a decent modern C compiler that targets m68k, for example, even though
> that architecture is still just about clinging on to life.

Again, one needs to ask "why are they considered obsolete now and not 
then?"  For example, if IBM could have simplified the 7000-series 
machines to a single 7090-type architecture, they could have saved money 
by not implementing the 7070, 7080, etc.

C is a great high-level assembly language for a certain class of 
architectures, I will admit.

The problem with C (and to a lesser extent C++) is the lack of typing by 
usage.  Does an int hold a character, boolean value, index, bit sequence 
or what?  You can alleviate this to some extent with typedefs, but that 
doesn't seem to be all that prevalent.  Indeed, one indicator of that 
problem is the "nUxi" problem when early developers were porting that 
particular OS code.

C does well with character addressing, particularly if a word/int is an 
integral multiple of characters in length.  But not so well with 
bit-addressing, even though bit-addressable architectures can be very 
useful (as in vector machines).

But if you think you can work out a C for the 1620, please have at it. 
Be careful with numeric blanks and record marks...

--Chuck




From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb 19 12:19:45 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:19:45 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <54E62941.8080002@sydex.com>

On 02/19/2015 09:44 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> 'course then I had to remind them an awful lot of times that the
> assignment required SAVING a source file (and it had to be the final
> version, not an earlier draft) and create an executable file on their
> disk, not just test run it in the IDE.  I even made them print out the
> relevant portion of the directory, and kicked back a lot of submissions
> where the executable file and source file did not have appropriate
> sequence.

My first encounter with Pascal was in the early 70s (pre 
personal-computer era).  It was part-and-parcel of the "structured 
programming" fad that was sweeping through the profession at the time.

Of course, most took "structured programming" as meaning "GOTO-less" and 
nothing more.  Others observed that "structured programming" was what 
good programmers had been doing for eons.  Finally, one of my co-workers 
observed "show me a machine without the equivalent of a GOTO instruction".

Still, the corporate design standards group declared that this was the 
way of the future and designed their own "GOTO-less" language to be 
henceforth used for all utility systems programs--many of which had been 
written in FORTRAN.

--Chuck

From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Thu Feb 19 13:36:35 2015
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 19:36:35 +0000
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
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On 19 February 2015 at 16:40, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:

>  Borland's extensions to Pascal that removed any limitation in I/O.
>
> I think people confuse Turbo Pascal with "standard" Pascal.  Turbo brought
> a LOT to the table that you simply coudln't do with a standardized Pascal
> compiler.  Borland never quit tweaking the language - Object Pascal hit
> with the 5.5 release of Turbo Pascal and that was improved upon even
> further with the 6.0 and 7.0 releases.  When Delphi hit the market in 1995,
> it really blew people away.  Had Borland's management not run the company
> into the ground, Delphi would be a lot more popular than it is today.
> Fortunately they used their last functioning brain cell to spin their
> developer tools off to CodeGear in 2007.  Embarcadero purchased them a
> while after that and have continued to improve upon the product - both
> Delphi and C++ Builder.
>
> They did.  TP was successful because it was fast, cheap and flexible.
Don't underestimate the cheap part.

-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift

From radiotest at juno.com  Thu Feb 19 13:44:41 2015
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 14:44:41 -0500
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
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Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>

At 01:07 PM 2/19/2015, Ethan Dicks wrote:

>I got my start with banging hex into TIM ...

I got my start punching Hollerith cards and handing in a box of them at the computer center window. :-)

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 14:08:43 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:08:43 -0700
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
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Message-ID: <CAFrGgTST_NS_zK7iQ87iaZBxWrdL1EOTF_d+SMDZRKz3q55C=g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 9:40 AM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
> Borland never quit tweaking the language

Perhaps.

> Object Pascal hit with the 5.5 release of Turbo Pascal

That was Apple tweaking the language.

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Feb 19 14:12:45 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:12:45 -0700
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
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Message-ID: <54E643BD.3030808@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/19/2015 12:44 PM, Dale H. Cook wrote:
> At 01:07 PM 2/19/2015, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>
>> I got my start with banging hex into TIM ...
>
> I got my start punching Hollerith cards and handing in a box of them at the computer center window. :-)
>

I just watched TV shows with all the blinking lights.
Ben.


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Feb 19 14:13:10 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 12:13:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTST_NS_zK7iQ87iaZBxWrdL1EOTF_d+SMDZRKz3q55C=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
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Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502191212060.15576@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, Eric Smith wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 9:40 AM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>> Borland never quit tweaking the language
>
> Perhaps.
>
There's no "perhaps" about it.

>> Object Pascal hit with the 5.5 release of Turbo Pascal
>
> That was Apple tweaking the language.

I don't recall Apple ever having been involved with Borland.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Feb 19 14:15:42 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:15:42 -0700
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTST_NS_zK7iQ87iaZBxWrdL1EOTF_d+SMDZRKz3q55C=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <54E6446E.8000407@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/19/2015 1:08 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 9:40 AM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>> Borland never quit tweaking the language
>
> Perhaps.
>
>> Object Pascal hit with the 5.5 release of Turbo Pascal
>
> That was Apple tweaking the language.
>
>

I never could figure out the point of Objects.
Every data type is different.
Ben.


From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 14:16:38 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:16:38 -0700
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150219095502.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
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Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSDi_Fyit839e6uCTZrAUu6YPEpzuCmwa=WMhCFGfHhPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> Does anybody remember who originally wrote Turbo Pascal?

Anders Hejlsberg

> Were they involved, at all, in Turbo C?

Not in the initial development of the Turbo C compiler, which was by
Bob Jervis.  Possibly later.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 14:19:03 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:19:03 -0700
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502191212060.15576@deltasoft.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAFrGgTS2gQbEg4gkj05X06pR=zxV9sUD8nX_qdoK+Lw6=oN_yg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 1:13 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, Eric Smith wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 9:40 AM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>>> Borland never quit tweaking the language
>>> Object Pascal hit with the 5.5 release of Turbo Pascal
>> That was Apple tweaking the language.
> I don't recall Apple ever having been involved with Borland.

As far as I know, they weren't. But Apple defined Object Pascal, not
Borland. Borland just used the language definition Apple threw over
the wall. Borland tweaked the language in other ways, but Object
Pascal was Apple tweaking it.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 14:22:39 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:22:39 -0700
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E6446E.8000407@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTiei+E1Y5C1WdhVPfgCnOtzXHze7vxVeobLx3kY3_ytg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 1:15 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
> I never could figure out the point of Objects.

The point of objects is to support data abstraction by disallowing any
old random code in a large system from directly manipulating the
innards of the objects, and instead require that to be done by methods
declared to be part of the object.

> Every data type is different.

If that weren't true, you'd only need one kind of object.

Perhaps what you're questioning is inheritance, which is useful but
isn't necessarily a required feature of objects. Inheritance is based
on the idea that while two types aren't identical, they may have
similarities. As a trivial example, integers and floats are different
data types, but they both support arithmetic.

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Feb 19 14:27:14 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 12:27:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTS2gQbEg4gkj05X06pR=zxV9sUD8nX_qdoK+Lw6=oN_yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502191226390.16008@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, Eric Smith wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 1:13 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, Eric Smith wrote:
>>> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 9:40 AM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>>>> Borland never quit tweaking the language
>>>> Object Pascal hit with the 5.5 release of Turbo Pascal
>>> That was Apple tweaking the language.
>> I don't recall Apple ever having been involved with Borland.
>
> As far as I know, they weren't. But Apple defined Object Pascal, not
> Borland. Borland just used the language definition Apple threw over
> the wall. Borland tweaked the language in other ways, but Object
> Pascal was Apple tweaking it.

Ahh.  They got the ball started then.  It's a shame they dropped it.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Thu Feb 19 14:29:16 2015
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:29:16 +0000
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E6446E.8000407@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAEvVyqEN_KBuGLOYHBh5fP1Sj4t+Bv1kw-o8HCivnZqUOQQXoA@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 February 2015 at 20:15, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:

>
>>
> I never could figure out the point of Objects.
> Every data type is different.
>

Yeah, but often they are similar... and you can overload them and add bits,
not that I do that much...

>
>



-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb 19 14:39:15 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 12:39:15 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqEN_KBuGLOYHBh5fP1Sj4t+Bv1kw-o8HCivnZqUOQQXoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
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Message-ID: <54E649F3.3050805@sydex.com>

On 02/19/2015 12:29 PM, John Many Jars wrote:

> Yeah, but often they are similar... and you can overload them and add bits,
> not that I do that much...

Wasn't the original point of objects code re-usability?    Objects can 
be wonderful if properly designed.  But like a lot of other things, 
properly designing an object isn't trivial.

--Chuck




From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Feb 19 14:57:52 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:57:52 -0700
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTiei+E1Y5C1WdhVPfgCnOtzXHze7vxVeobLx3kY3_ytg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
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Message-ID: <54E64E50.1020609@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/19/2015 1:22 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> Perhaps what you're questioning is inheritance, which is useful but
> isn't necessarily a required feature of objects. Inheritance is based
> on the idea that while two types aren't identical, they may have
> similarities. As a trivial example, integers and floats are different
> data types, but they both support arithmetic.
>

I think I am, but not math (where are the decimal libraries? Logic fuctions
for decimal machines) but more in the Graphic area. All bitmapped 
screens look the same but bigger, yet at the same time there is no 
standard to define a modern computer for I/O. Ben.





From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 15:36:51 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 14:36:51 -0700
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E64E50.1020609@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
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 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <CAFrGgTST_NS_zK7iQ87iaZBxWrdL1EOTF_d+SMDZRKz3q55C=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E6446E.8000407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTTiei+E1Y5C1WdhVPfgCnOtzXHze7vxVeobLx3kY3_ytg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E64E50.1020609@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTR+GvNLxossT80xdhjL=NCz7UuNXjBQZRvq=jbByzAuUA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 1:57 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
> On 2/19/2015 1:22 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
>> Perhaps what you're questioning is inheritance, which is useful but
>> isn't necessarily a required feature of objects. Inheritance is based
>> on the idea that while two types aren't identical, they may have
>> similarities. As a trivial example, integers and floats are different
>> data types, but they both support arithmetic.

> I think I am, but not math

As I said, numeric types and arithmetic was only a trivial example,
though there are advantages in treating them as objects if it can be
done without significant performance penalty. Smalltalk was the first
object-oriented system that treated even primitive numeric types as
objects, but Simula-67 did not, nor do many of the more recent
object-oriented systems.  Java primitive types aren't really objects,
but by means of an "autoboxing" feature, can be treated as though they
are.

> (where are the decimal libraries?

Some object-oriented environments actually do provide that, including Python.

From lenox.joseph at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 16:29:29 2015
From: lenox.joseph at gmail.com (Joseph Lenox)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 16:29:29 -0600
Subject: Hp 2760 cooling system manuals?
Message-ID: <CAPoio6fgT-hiPtVNfMENJZk_TeCM8Y6gv0fsHNOpLm+FMzak7g@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone have any scans or is willing to drop them in the post for a
university?

Full story:

Back in 2005-2007, Qualcomm gave our ECE department a used Agilent 83k
tester (F330t). It's basically sat in pieces because there's been no money
to hook it up.

Well, now there is some money floating around to make this happen, and I'm
the poor GA stuck with trying to dig up

I have the service manuals and site prep guides for the mainframe itself,
but HP/Agilent (in its infinite wisdom) broke out the cooling unit
requirements (as in whether or not we need chilled water or even the gpm)
into its own manual! We have the E2760D L/L (liquid/liquid) unit.

It looks like the manual # is E2760-91001. Any other related manuals would
also be helpful.

From isking at uw.edu  Thu Feb 19 16:35:48 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 14:35:48 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ01imjAfrcMzTVYQraNa0o7yNNOC85b3oZY3Xt3135G5Xg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 8:40 AM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:

I think people confuse Turbo Pascal with "standard" Pascal.  Turbo brought
> a LOT to the table that you simply coudln't do with a standardized Pascal
> compiler.  Borland never quit tweaking the language - Object Pascal hit
> with the 5.5 release of Turbo Pascal and that was improved upon even
> further with the 6.0 and 7.0 releases.  When Delphi hit the market in 1995,
> it really blew people away.  Had Borland's management not run the company
> into the ground, Delphi would be a lot more popular than it is today.
> Fortunately they used their last functioning brain cell to spin their
> developer tools off to CodeGear in 2007.  Embarcadero purchased them a
> while after that and have continued to improve upon the product - both
> Delphi and C++ Builder.
>
> ISTR Borland did a lot of 'tweaking' - take a look at Turbo Prolog.  It
sounded cool in the marketing literature, but I could never figure out what
it was really good for.  When I finally learned C&M Prolog a few years
later, I realized that the Borland product was Prolog in little more than
name and keywords.  I also realized that Prolog was in fact very, very cool
and a lot of fun.  -- Ian



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb 19 16:38:07 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 14:38:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
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 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>

> I got my start punching Hollerith cards and handing in a box of them at
> the computer center window. :-)

In my first semester of teaching FORTRAN, I had a student who had taken
multiple programming classes at Cal-State Hayward.  But, she did not know
what the word "COMPILE" meant!  She had always turned in her program at
the window, and picked up her output later.

THAT is why I made my C students use both a command line compiler AND an
IDE.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From kspt.tor at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 18:20:06 2015
From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 01:20:06 +0100
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
Message-ID: <CAL1JhhyfoA6mKFTf6TkARpwFPyPCiAo7Ak_qL0vEACZEYty8xQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 February 2015 at 17:40, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
> I suspect it was Borland's extensions to Pascal that removed any limitation
> in I/O.

That's right.   But there's more than I/O. The academic-tool variant
of Pascal, as Wirth designed it, was simply useless in practice, or
extremely cumbersome to use because you couldn't design a function
which could take arrays of variable sizes as input, you had to declare
one function for each size. Hopeless. You couldn't do any real data
processing that way. Turbo Pascal, and every other useful variant,
e.g. the Pascal I used on a minicomputer, fixed that part, and often
added I/O extensions in various ways. In short, they made the language
flexible, and thus usable.

Then TP of course had that fast edit-compile-execute cycle, a low
price, and the super-easy IDE. The learning curve from getting your
hands on TP to actually use it was very low. Actually the Turbo Pascal
IDE is still the only IDE I like. I don't use any of the modern ones,
they are just in the way. But I recently tried the CP/M TP version
again, haven't used it since the eighties.. and I still like the IDE.
Re-learned it in seconds.

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Thu Feb 19 18:42:13 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 16:42:13 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 19, 2015, at 2:38 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> 
>> I got my start punching Hollerith cards and handing in a box of them at
>> the computer center window. :-)
> 
> In my first semester of teaching FORTRAN, I had a student who had taken
> multiple programming classes at Cal-State Hayward.  But, she did not know
> what the word "COMPILE" meant!  She had always turned in her program at
> the window, and picked up her output later.
> 
> THAT is why I made my C students use both a command line compiler AND an
> IDE.
> 
> 

I've never quite gotten the hang of an IDE.  When I was *required* (damned build
environment) to use it, I only used it as a graphical compiler.  Everything else
(edit & run/test) was done outside of the IDE.

Of course, I started writing FORTRAN on an 029 keypunch and had to load the
card deck (complier was on disk), compile the code, link it, get an output deck
and then I could run that (this was on an IBM 1130 at the time).  Was *really*
happy when we got WATIV and could do a "compile and go" when I was testing
code (lots few cards to toss) but still needed a deck for the "real" runs because
that had to be run off hours.

TTFN - Guy


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb 19 19:30:28 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 17:30:28 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <54E68E34.9020405@sydex.com>

On 02/19/2015 04:42 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:

> Of course, I started writing FORTRAN on an 029 keypunch..

That wasn't very good practice, was it?  Write on a coding form (or 
paper), then punch, run an 80-80 list on a 407 and hand check, correct 
and then submit.

--Chuck



From spc at conman.org  Thu Feb 19 19:35:06 2015
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:35:06 -0500
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTiei+E1Y5C1WdhVPfgCnOtzXHze7vxVeobLx3kY3_ytg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <CAFrGgTST_NS_zK7iQ87iaZBxWrdL1EOTF_d+SMDZRKz3q55C=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E6446E.8000407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTTiei+E1Y5C1WdhVPfgCnOtzXHze7vxVeobLx3kY3_ytg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150220013506.GA3738@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Eric Smith once stated:
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 1:15 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
> > I never could figure out the point of Objects.
> 
> The point of objects is to support data abstraction by disallowing any
> old random code in a large system from directly manipulating the
> innards of the objects, and instead require that to be done by methods
> declared to be part of the object.
> 
> > Every data type is different.
> 
> If that weren't true, you'd only need one kind of object.
> 
> Perhaps what you're questioning is inheritance, which is useful but
> isn't necessarily a required feature of objects. Inheritance is based
> on the idea that while two types aren't identical, they may have
> similarities. As a trivial example, integers and floats are different
> data types, but they both support arithmetic.

  Perhaps a better example would be a serial port device class [1], which
inherits behavior from a character device class, which inherits behavior
from the device class.  

  -spc (But I've never found object oriented programming all that compelling
	myself ... )

[1]	A class is the definition of an object.  Or in other words, an
	object is an instantiated (created) class.

From markwgreen at rogers.com  Thu Feb 19 20:33:12 2015
From: markwgreen at rogers.com (Mark Green)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 21:33:12 -0500
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAL1JhhyfoA6mKFTf6TkARpwFPyPCiAo7Ak_qL0vEACZEYty8xQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL1JhhyfoA6mKFTf6TkARpwFPyPCiAo7Ak_qL0vEACZEYty8xQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002a01d04cb5$93ee1670$bbca4350$@rogers.com>

I started using Pascal on CDC 6000 series machines.  At that point in time
the other languages that were widely available on CDC hardware were Fortran
and assembler.  Within a year or so we dropped assembler as our main systems
language and switched to Pascal.  Pretty much everything we could do in
assembler we could do in Pascal in fewer lines of source code.  Writing
efficient assembler on CDC machines was not particularly easy and the Pascal
compiler generated fairly good code, so we saw little performance
difference.

With the mixture of 6 bit and 12 bit character codes (plus a few others)
along with the bizarre end of line conventions, Pascal code tended to be
easier to understand and maintain than assembler.

Wirth had a pretty good understanding of the CDC architecture having written
several compilers for it before Pascal.  Pascal was tuned to that
architecture and the CDC operating systems.  Some of the features that
people not used to CDC machines find strange were aimed at the shortcomings
of the CDC machines.  In many ways Pascal on the CDC machines was similar to
C on PDP11s.  I worked on both for several years and found switching back
and forth to be relatively easy.

On the CDC machines Pascal was far from academic and useless, particularly
in practice.  You need to understand the machine architecture and system
environment where a language was developed to judge whether it was practical
or not.

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tor Arntsen
Sent: February-19-15 7:20 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into
COBOL

On 19 February 2015 at 17:40, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
> I suspect it was Borland's extensions to Pascal that removed any 
> limitation in I/O.

That's right.   But there's more than I/O. The academic-tool variant
of Pascal, as Wirth designed it, was simply useless in practice, or
extremely cumbersome to use because you couldn't design a function which
could take arrays of variable sizes as input, you had to declare one
function for each size. Hopeless. You couldn't do any real data processing
that way. Turbo Pascal, and every other useful variant, e.g. the Pascal I
used on a minicomputer, fixed that part, and often added I/O extensions in
various ways. In short, they made the language flexible, and thus usable.

Then TP of course had that fast edit-compile-execute cycle, a low price, and
the super-easy IDE. The learning curve from getting your hands on TP to
actually use it was very low. Actually the Turbo Pascal IDE is still the
only IDE I like. I don't use any of the modern ones, they are just in the
way. But I recently tried the CP/M TP version again, haven't used it since
the eighties.. and I still like the IDE.
Re-learned it in seconds.


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb 19 20:43:38 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 18:43:38 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <002a01d04cb5$93ee1670$bbca4350$@rogers.com>
References: <CAL1JhhyfoA6mKFTf6TkARpwFPyPCiAo7Ak_qL0vEACZEYty8xQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01d04cb5$93ee1670$bbca4350$@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <54E69F5A.7090905@sydex.com>

On 02/19/2015 06:33 PM, Mark Green wrote:
> I started using Pascal on CDC 6000 series machines.  At that point in time
> the other languages that were widely available on CDC hardware were Fortran
> and assembler.  Within a year or so we dropped assembler as our main systems
> language and switched to Pascal.  Pretty much everything we could do in
> assembler we could do in Pascal in fewer lines of source code.  Writing
> efficient assembler on CDC machines was not particularly easy and the Pascal
> compiler generated fairly good code, so we saw little performance
> difference.

Scott Moore has a good site on the Zurich compilers:

http://www.moorecad.com/standardpascal/PascalP.html

I found a P4 copy on a NOS 1.3 tape that I was converting for someone 
and contributed the source to his collection.

--Chuck



From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Thu Feb 19 20:46:13 2015
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 18:46:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E68E34.9020405@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com>
 <54E68E34.9020405@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1502191839320.27487@minnie.bitsea.ca>

>> Of course, I started writing FORTRAN on an 029 keypunch..
>
> That wasn't very good practice, was it?  Write on a coding form (or paper), 
> then punch, run an 80-80 list on a 407 and hand check, correct and then 
> submit.

Heh.  High school correspondence course.  Fortran. 66.  Coding sheets.  I 
hate coding sheets.

But I am so much smarter than the rest.  I have an account on the 
university Amdahl/470, with both Fortran G *and* H!  So I will just write 
and debug my code there, then punch a deck and submit it in the mail.  Am 
I cool or what?!?

How was *I* to know the poor bastards on the receiving end needed 
026-punched cards :-P

--lyndon


From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Thu Feb 19 20:49:53 2015
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 18:49:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150219163651.DDEC02073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca> <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163651.DDEC02073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1502191847200.27487@minnie.bitsea.ca>

> All true, but doesn't it make you wonder why Turbo Pascal
> was such a popular development environment for the PC for so long?
>
> Was it the sheer will power and marketing of Borland, or was
> it the volume of developers who didn't need intensive low-level I/O?

Umm, no.  It was the $49.95 price tag, back when compilers cost hundreds - 
even thousands - of dollars.

--lyndon


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb 19 21:14:32 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 19:14:32 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1502191839320.27487@minnie.bitsea.ca>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com>
 <54E68E34.9020405@sydex.com>
 <alpine.OSX.2.00.1502191839320.27487@minnie.bitsea.ca>
Message-ID: <54E6A698.50405@sydex.com>

On 02/19/2015 06:46 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:

> But I am so much smarter than the rest.  I have an account on the
> university Amdahl/470, with both Fortran G *and* H!  So I will just
> write and debug my code there, then punch a deck and submit it in the
> mail.  Am I cool or what?!?

CDC management so detested programmers punching their own cards that 
they made it really inconvenient.  There was a keypunch located at each 
corner of the building,*on a timer*--one of those clickety-click ones 
with a knob.  I recall that you could get about 10 minutes per twist.

I mean, why waste your time keypunching, when you could submit it to the 
gals in keypunch to mis-type your stuff?  Of course, real terminals were 
kept from the programmers as well.  When we finally managed to talk 
management into installing real video terminals, they took about 15 of 
them and put them all on tables in *one* room.  Heaven forfend that 
anyone should have one on their desk!

It didn't really matter much to me--being in systems software, I used 
lots of committed block time usually during the wee hours of the night 
where there were keypunch machines available all over an essentially 
empty building.  If I needed a patch card while I was on the machine, I 
could always run the o26 PPU program on the DD60 operator's console.

The way to be productive back then was to be invisible.

--Chuck


From dave at 661.org  Thu Feb 19 21:17:19 2015
From: dave at 661.org (Dave G.)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 03:17:19 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: 8-inch floppy mailers
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502200316170.2328@nyx.feedle.net>


A couple years ago announced here that I had 40 8-inch floppy mailers. 
Four people wanted them, but I cannot get in touch with them any more. 
So, here it is again: 40 8-inch floppy mailers for shipping.

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From isking at uw.edu  Thu Feb 19 21:27:10 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 19:27:10 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E68E34.9020405@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com>
 <54E68E34.9020405@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ02yVBVnuiJSHqRgJy4nCqi+RwO5KtNHHV_4my2Ez-1-Qg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 5:30 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 02/19/2015 04:42 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>
>  Of course, I started writing FORTRAN on an 029 keypunch..
>>
>
> That wasn't very good practice, was it?  Write on a coding form (or
> paper), then punch, run an 80-80 list on a 407 and hand check, correct and
> then submit.


Yeah, I used to give my instructor heartburn - I'd sit at the keypunch and
compose programs.  They ran, though.


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Feb 19 21:44:21 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 22:44:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150220013506.GA3738@brevard.conman.org>
References: <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <CAFrGgTST_NS_zK7iQ87iaZBxWrdL1EOTF_d+SMDZRKz3q55C=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E6446E.8000407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTTiei+E1Y5C1WdhVPfgCnOtzXHze7vxVeobLx3kY3_ytg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150220013506.GA3738@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <201502200344.WAA29015@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>> I never could figure out the point of Objects.
>> The point of objects is to support data abstraction by disallowing
>> any old random code in a large system from directly manipulating the
>> innards of the objects, and instead require that to be done by
>> methods declared to be part of the object.

Well, I'd say that's one of the points.  You can get similar effects in
(for example) plain old C by not exporting (for example) struct
definitions.

I don't know what the original point of OO coding was.  But I would say
that now, OO is not so much any particular language feature (such as
internals hiding) or any single goal (such as abstraction) as it is a
mindset.  I would say that OO code can be written in any language
(well, any general-purpose language; some esolangs, such as Malbolge or
Befunge, are so difficult to use at all that OO is probably out of
reach), right down to assembler.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Feb 19 22:02:58 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 21:02:58 -0700
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <201502200344.WAA29015@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <CAFrGgTST_NS_zK7iQ87iaZBxWrdL1EOTF_d+SMDZRKz3q55C=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E6446E.8000407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTTiei+E1Y5C1WdhVPfgCnOtzXHze7vxVeobLx3kY3_ytg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150220013506.GA3738@brevard.conman.org>
 <201502200344.WAA29015@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <54E6B1F2.4070507@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/19/2015 8:44 PM, Mouse wrote:

> I don't know what the original point of OO coding was.  But I would say
> that now, OO is not so much any particular language feature (such as
> internals hiding) or any single goal (such as abstraction) as it is a
> mindset.  I would say that OO code can be written in any language
> (well, any general-purpose language; some esolangs, such as Malbolge or
> Befunge, are so difficult to use at all that OO is probably out of
> reach), right down to assembler.

Now those I consider harmful.

> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>   X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>
>

Ben.

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Feb 19 22:13:49 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:13:49 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150220013506.GA3738@brevard.conman.org>
References: <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <CAFrGgTST_NS_zK7iQ87iaZBxWrdL1EOTF_d+SMDZRKz3q55C=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E6446E.8000407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTTiei+E1Y5C1WdhVPfgCnOtzXHze7vxVeobLx3kY3_ytg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150220013506.GA3738@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <78DFADC6-636C-4A00-8584-15E2801A85B0@cs.ubc.ca>


On 2015-Feb-19, at 5:35 PM, Sean Conner wrote:

> It was thus said that the Great Eric Smith once stated:
>> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 1:15 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> I never could figure out the point of Objects.
>> 
>> The point of objects is to support data abstraction by disallowing any
>> old random code in a large system from directly manipulating the
>> innards of the objects, and instead require that to be done by methods
>> declared to be part of the object.
>> 
>>> Every data type is different.
>> 
>> If that weren't true, you'd only need one kind of object.
>> 
>> Perhaps what you're questioning is inheritance, which is useful but
>> isn't necessarily a required feature of objects. Inheritance is based
>> on the idea that while two types aren't identical, they may have
>> similarities. As a trivial example, integers and floats are different
>> data types, but they both support arithmetic.
> 
>  Perhaps a better example would be a serial port device class [1], which
> inherits behavior from a character device class, which inherits behavior
> from the device class.  
> 
>  -spc (But I've never found object oriented programming all that compelling
> 	myself ... )
> 
> [1]	A class is the definition of an object.  Or in other words, an
> 	object is an instantiated (created) class.

In my practical experience, I'd say the most useful benefit of OOP is the polymorphism, allowing higher-level code to call alternatives of modules of lower-level code while only changing the initialisation, rather than having to alter or switch every call to a module subroutine.

In the typical I/O example, a terminal or a printer or a network port appear as the same byte-stream paradigm and calling routines. While one can respond we already have that in UNIX and the C I/O library, there the polymorphism takes place either at the system-call level or in the ugliness of the C I/O lib implementation (go look inside).
The point being it is most useful to be able to do that wherever ones wishes, in a formalised manner.

In the 80's, before OOP was a big thing, I developed a semi-formal technique to provide for polymorphism while writing C code although it was pushing the C standard a bit (casting pointers, macros, indirect function calls, etc). I was quite enthused as OOP came on and looked forward to having the ability 'officially' provided in the language and compiler.
Instead, we got C++. Yup, the polymorphism is there - along with an ocean of feature bloat, and 25 years later still no one standard for an OOP C.


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Thu Feb 19 22:23:29 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:23:29 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E68E34.9020405@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com>
Message-ID: <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com>


On 2/19/15 5:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/19/2015 04:42 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>
>> Of course, I started writing FORTRAN on an 029 keypunch..
>
> That wasn't very good practice, was it?  Write on a coding form (or 
> paper), then punch, run an 80-80 list on a 407 and hand check, correct 
> and then submit.

Nope.  It was (and still is) how I write code (sit down and compose at 
the keyboard).  One of my old bosses at IBM once said "Yea, Guy just 
waves his hands over the keyboard and programs come out".

TTFN - Guy


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Fri Feb 20 00:31:11 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 22:31:11 -0800
Subject: Jim Drew's SuperCard Pro?
In-Reply-To: <20150219163647.542832073E94@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <20150219163647.542832073E94@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <DC7CDF55-CE85-4432-B609-CB4C165F945E@nf6x.net>

I have a SuperCard Pro, but I've only experimented with it a little bit so far. I hope that it will let me migrate away from my KryoFlux, as the KryoFlux folks and I have some philosophical disagreements.

I mostly use Macs as my modern machines, and I use my SCP with Keir Fraser's Disk-Utilities rather than the Windows front end for SCP. Disk-Utilities doesn't currently provide write support for the SCP, but hopefully that won't always be true.

I haven't tried SCP with 8" drives yet, but that's on my get-a-round-toit list.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From johannesthelen at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 19 07:59:14 2015
From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 15:59:14 +0200
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <613A3490-E0FD-465B-9C87-945651734875@bsdimp.com>
References: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>,
 <011201d04b91$ae598d70$0b0ca850$@classiccmp.org>
 <54E4C8E5.3000500@jwsss.com>,
 <CAFrGgTSAm+yKabiWC4+TerLFF_9WA-_Nct43a2HNT-joQV0zvw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <613A3490-E0FD-465B-9C87-945651734875@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <DUB113-W1281B1DAB18768E6004EF50CB2D0@phx.gbl>

Thank you all! 
Yes, I think too this is not Ethernet, I studied where RJ45 is connected...
RJ45 is connected to MC145406, RS232 3x receiver/transmitter chip, here's datasheet:http://www.freescale.com/files/timing_interconnect_access/doc/inactive/MC145406.pdf
Three transmitter and one receiver is used (other two receivers are connected to ground). So this is very likely RS232 or sort of. Board have Symbios Logic SCSI chip (53c710), three QuickLogic FPGAs (QL12x16), Z80 and bunch of ROMs. Here's pics:https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-X1JkOUpzZ2tjZW8&usp=sharing
Serial number is 289, so this probably this wasn't best seller at that time...> So did you get any type of storage device or media with the machine? If so, boot it up and see what drivers and such are there?No I didn't got any :( ...just 2109E CPU
I have to find some nice drives later, but now I'll make just tape emulator for it, so I can fill memory with my own code. I think if I can't use this board that easily without manuals, I probably can make some quick & dirty solution for tape emulation lot faster.
Machine have boot ROMs for terminal, papertape, 79xx drives, C580 disc (what?).https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DR111cK6W-Q1VlQjJZeWZHUDA/view?usp=sharing
I'll make some empiric tests with scope, I'll try to use different ROMs/IO addresses to boot and hope something happens on RJ45.
> My guess is it's a SCSI card, perhaps with a little serial interface that> you can hook a TTY up to to configure and manage the card, as was done on> some Q-bus SCSI cards.Sounds very plausible! I have to try that also, maybe that card tells what is it.


Ps. > Congrats! I love those machines :)Thanks and I think too this 21MX/1000 is awesome machine! HP made only one BIG mistake: there's no flickering lights, because panel works via microcode (like everything in this machine)... grrrrr! ;)

- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/




> Subject: Re: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
> From: imp at bsdimp.com
> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 14:08:15 -0700
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> CC: jwsmail at jwsss.com
> 
> 
> > On Feb 18, 2015, at 1:28 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Johannes Thelen <johannesthelen at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> I just got HP 2109 E-series which I bought from eBay last week. I was planning
> >> to make own tape emulator interface for it, but I found mystery card from it,
> > 
> > High-resolution photos or scans to allow identification of more of the
> > components
> > might help with figuring out the likely functionality provided.
> > 
> > Based on what can be seen, I doubt that the RJ45 is for Ethernet.
> 
> I agree. There?s no magnetics for the PHY?.
> 
> Warner
> 
 		 	   		  

From billdeg at buzz1.com  Thu Feb 19 12:58:53 2015
From: billdeg at buzz1.com (B Degnan)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:58:53 -0500
Subject: Burroughs B 80 in England, Available
Message-ID: <6739ff76$69004098$37e0c67c$@buzz1.com>



Received the following from my web site: 

"...I have a 1970s Burroughs B 80 which was one of the first office based 
with stand alone multi disc cabinet & printer, any interest ..." 

Contacted the guy, he said he was from Oxfordshire/Berkshire border in 
England (I presume).  He is looking to sell for at least scrap value.  
Contact me if you're interested and I will forward your info to the guy, 
his name is Brian.. 

NOTE:  I helped rescue a similar unit from a Jewelry store a few years ago, 
they're heavy suckers. 

Bill
Reach me here: vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm



From lordofhyphens at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 13:16:27 2015
From: lordofhyphens at gmail.com (Joe Lenox)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:16:27 -0600
Subject: Looking for HP/Agilent E2760D cooling system manuals/guides
Message-ID: <CAPoio6dCSHdKtoW5LaqDRVMCE3ZUSKsyvWs++Dd3h0rMWFSVgQ@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone have any scans or is willing to drop them in the post for a
university?

Full story:

Back in 2005-2007, Qualcomm gave our ECE department a used Agilent 83k
tester (F330t). It's basically sat in pieces because there's been no money
to hook it up.

Well, now there is some money floating around to make this happen, and I'm
the poor GA stuck with trying to dig up

I have the service manuals and site prep guides for the mainframe itself,
but HP/Agilent (in its infinite wisdom) broke out the cooling unit
requirements (as in whether or not we need chilled water or even the gpm)
into its own manual! We have the E2760D L/L (liquid/liquid) unit.

It looks like the manual # is E2760-91001. Any other related manuals would
also be helpful.


"Nothing unreal exists." - Kiri-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics.

From jon at jonworld.com  Thu Feb 19 13:43:07 2015
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:43:07 +0100
Subject: Burroughs B 80 in England, Available
In-Reply-To: <6739ff76$69004098$37e0c67c$@buzz1.com>
References: <6739ff76$69004098$37e0c67c$@buzz1.com>
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+2-mKBgY66M3GDtN8YKg49MHZxprHghNXpMKpBSoO7tdA@mail.gmail.com>

Something tells me it won't fit in my apartment in Belgium :( I'll keep an
ear out. I can't seem to find any pictures of these machines, and there is
only one doc on bitsavers.

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 7:58 PM, B Degnan <billdeg at buzz1.com> wrote:

>
>
> Received the following from my web site:
>
> "...I have a 1970s Burroughs B 80 which was one of the first office based
> with stand alone multi disc cabinet & printer, any interest ..."
>
> Contacted the guy, he said he was from Oxfordshire/Berkshire border in
> England (I presume).  He is looking to sell for at least scrap value.
> Contact me if you're interested and I will forward your info to the guy,
> his name is Brian..
>
> NOTE:  I helped rescue a similar unit from a Jewelry store a few years ago,
> they're heavy suckers.
>
> Bill
> Reach me here: vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm
>
>
>


-- 
-Jon
+32 0 486 260 686

From linimon at lonesome.com  Thu Feb 19 13:53:00 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:53:00 -0600
Subject: Burroughs machines
In-Reply-To: <6739ff76$69004098$37e0c67c$@buzz1.com>
References: <6739ff76$69004098$37e0c67c$@buzz1.com>
Message-ID: <20150219195300.GA29787@lonesome.com>

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 01:58:53PM -0500, B Degnan wrote:
> "...I have a 1970s Burroughs B 80 which was one of the first office based 
> with stand alone multi disc cabinet & printer, any interest ..." 

Nice looking little machine.

Speaking of Burroughs ... did any B5500s survive to the present day?

mcl

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 14:03:35 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 15:03:35 -0500
Subject: Burroughs machines
In-Reply-To: <20150219195300.GA29787@lonesome.com>
References: <6739ff76$69004098$37e0c67c$@buzz1.com>
 <20150219195300.GA29787@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmMzfjVdaOAVKE-PnJaju_zt8Cz3_j4fr_zbdr=Tdz_2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Mark Linimon <linimon at lonesome.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 01:58:53PM -0500, B Degnan wrote:
>> "...I have a 1970s Burroughs B 80 which was one of the first office based
>> with stand alone multi disc cabinet & printer, any interest ..."

Bill... I have some 1970s Burroughs' private-numbered TTL.  You need parts?

-ethan

From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com  Thu Feb 19 18:55:00 2015
From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 11:55:00 +1100
Subject: Burroughs machines
In-Reply-To: <20150219195300.GA29787@lonesome.com>
References: <6739ff76$69004098$37e0c67c$@buzz1.com>
 <20150219195300.GA29787@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <CACCFpdwti9dobBwdNvb6A_eMPYFgv3B7r+kXjtLr3O7tV1o74w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 6:53 AM, Mark Linimon <linimon at lonesome.com> wrote:
> Speaking of Burroughs ... did any B5500s survive to the present day?

There was a press release in 1978 about one going to The Smithsonian:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/retro-b5500/GydsDkDEwdQ/Jkggo_cjujAJ

We haven't managed to confirm whether it has survived.

I also wonder whether the three x B5500 that went to Czechoslovakia
survived (another went to Moscow). After the fall of the eastern bloc
it was found that a lot of older technology had survived quite well in
former eastern bloc countries. I made several enquiries with people
who grew up in Czech and pinged the technology museum and some
academics but all drew a blank.

The B5500 emulator is quite stable now.

http://code.google.com/p/retro-b5500/

On Burroughs matters, Paul Kimpel has completed an outstanding
emulation for the ElectroData/Burroughs B205.

Tom Sawyer's blog has links to the B205 emulator and many detailed
postings about this machine:

http://datatron.blogspot.com.au/

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Thu Feb 19 17:24:55 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 23:24:55 +0000
Subject: Burroughs machines
In-Reply-To: <20150219195300.GA29787@lonesome.com>
References: <6739ff76$69004098$37e0c67c$@buzz1.com>
 <20150219195300.GA29787@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DA301A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Mark Linimon
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 11:53 AM

> Speaking of Burroughs ... did any B5500s survive to the present day?

You are [REDACTED] and I claim my ?5.

                                                                Rich

(We get this question from a certain source every few months.)


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 20 01:35:36 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 23:35:36 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>

On 02/19/2015 08:23 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:

> Nope.  It was (and still is) how I write code (sit down and compose at
> the keyboard).  One of my old bosses at IBM once said "Yea, Guy just
> waves his hands over the keyboard and programs come out".

That would have been impossible in my case, unless I had the most 
prodigious eidetic memory in history.

Writing code almost always involved using an on-disk or -tape source 
code library.  Even if it was new code, there were significant 
advantages to creating a library then modifying it as one progressed.

One would typically work with a bound listing or listings and work out 
the control system directives to update the existing code base. 
Remember, this was in the day of batch processing with almost no access 
to terminals.  Everything happened on the keypunch.

So for one to remember all of the correction set IDs and sequence 
numbers for a group of programs or system programs would be more than 
impressive--it'd probably merit a vivisection.

Here was one SCCS utility, UPDATE, used at CDC:

http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cdc/cyber/software/60342500H_UPDATE_Reference_Jan78.pdf

Another was MODIFY, used on KRONOS, but basically the same functionality 
as UPDATE.

So IBM had no SCCS for their system code?  That's mind-boggling.

--Chuck



From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Fri Feb 20 02:22:12 2015
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 08:22:12 +0000
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E69F5A.7090905@sydex.com>
References: <CAL1JhhyfoA6mKFTf6TkARpwFPyPCiAo7Ak_qL0vEACZEYty8xQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01d04cb5$93ee1670$bbca4350$@rogers.com>
 <54E69F5A.7090905@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqHVRDjHGshPbocfDZe5gVVDC=t95Dnd1WSAgsXY_Qpe2A@mail.gmail.com>

Oregon Software Pascal II on RSTS/E.

Anyone got a copy of that?

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Feb 20 03:26:46 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 09:26:46 -0000
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <007a01d04cef$596154b0$0c23fe10$@gmail.com>

I don't know about on MVS but on VM there is a comprehensive system which is
fully integrated with the editor XEDIT. You do have to create a reference
for each change, but once that's done you can just edit away and the editor
maintains a separate file of changes for that module. 

One major problem with the system is that it only works for card images , so
columns 73-80 are used as sequence numbers. When a deck has to be
re-sequenced a kind of madness ensues.

Dave
G4UGM

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
> Guzis
> Sent: 20 February 2015 07:36
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into
COBOL
> 
> On 02/19/2015 08:23 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> 
> > Nope.  It was (and still is) how I write code (sit down and compose at
> > the keyboard).  One of my old bosses at IBM once said "Yea, Guy just
> > waves his hands over the keyboard and programs come out".
> 
> That would have been impossible in my case, unless I had the most
> prodigious eidetic memory in history.
> 
> Writing code almost always involved using an on-disk or -tape source code
> library.  Even if it was new code, there were significant advantages to
> creating a library then modifying it as one progressed.
> 
> One would typically work with a bound listing or listings and work out the
> control system directives to update the existing code base.
> Remember, this was in the day of batch processing with almost no access to
> terminals.  Everything happened on the keypunch.
> 
> So for one to remember all of the correction set IDs and sequence numbers
> for a group of programs or system programs would be more than impressive-
> -it'd probably merit a vivisection.
> 
> Here was one SCCS utility, UPDATE, used at CDC:
> 
> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-
> stuttgart.de/pdf/cdc/cyber/software/60342500H_UPDATE_Reference_Jan78
> .pdf
> 
> Another was MODIFY, used on KRONOS, but basically the same functionality
> as UPDATE.
> 
> So IBM had no SCCS for their system code?  That's mind-boggling.
> 
> --Chuck
> 



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Feb 20 06:10:54 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:10:54 -0000
Subject: IBM-11 Card Punch
Message-ID: <022801d04d06$472405b0$d56c1110$@gmail.com>

Folks,

 

Some time ago I bought an IBM Model-11 electro-mechanical punch on E-Bay. It
was in a bit of a mess as someone had partially dismantled it and not
re-assembled it properly. It was also missing a couple of the operating
buttons. I have had some replacement parts made, and re-assembled it
properly. It now works reasonably well. I have made a short video of it
operating here:-

 

http://youtu.be/ogplYeEYzu8

 

Hope you enjoy this.

 

Dave Wade

G4UGM


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Fri Feb 20 01:52:39 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 02:52:39 -0500
Subject: Burroughs B 80 in England, Available
References: <6739ff76$69004098$37e0c67c$@buzz1.com>
 <CAEOZr+2-mKBgY66M3GDtN8YKg49MHZxprHghNXpMKpBSoO7tdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DCB94C34939742958C97751871DF94B6@310e2>

There are pictures and info out there, but they 
came in various quite different configurations; if 
it's the 4.5 or 9MB disk drive and the line 
printer this could indeed be a little large for 
your apartment.

Many fond memories of programming these babies (in 
COBOL!)

m

http://www.picklesnet.com/burroughs/images/fullsize/burr0271.jpg
http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/pictures/burroughs_B80.jpg
http://www.picklesnet.com/burroughs/images/fullsize/burr0228.jpg
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.unisys/W70XaOs2qF4

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jonathan Katz" <jon at jonworld.com>
To: <billdeg at buzz1.com>; "General Discussion: 
On-Topic Posts" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: Burroughs B 80 in England, Available


> Something tells me it won't fit in my apartment 
> in Belgium :( I'll keep an
> ear out. I can't seem to find any pictures of 
> these machines, and there is
> only one doc on bitsavers.
>
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 7:58 PM, B Degnan 
> <billdeg at buzz1.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Received the following from my web site:
>>
>> "...I have a 1970s Burroughs B 80 which was one 
>> of the first office based
>> with stand alone multi disc cabinet & printer, 
>> any interest ..."
>>
>> Contacted the guy, he said he was from 
>> Oxfordshire/Berkshire border in
>> England (I presume).  He is looking to sell for 
>> at least scrap value.
>> Contact me if you're interested and I will 
>> forward your info to the guy,
>> his name is Brian..
>>
>> NOTE:  I helped rescue a similar unit from a 
>> Jewelry store a few years ago,
>> they're heavy suckers.
>>
>> Bill
>> Reach me here: vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> -Jon
> +32 0 486 260 686 


From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri Feb 20 05:41:37 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 05:41:37 -0600
Subject: Burroughs machines
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DA301A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <6739ff76$69004098$37e0c67c$@buzz1.com>
 <20150219195300.GA29787@lonesome.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DA301A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <20150220114137.GA400@lonesome.com>

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 11:24:55PM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote:
> You are [REDACTED] and I claim my ?5.

sorry, have only been on the list for 3-4 months.

mcl

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Feb 20 08:18:57 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 06:18:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAL1JhhyfoA6mKFTf6TkARpwFPyPCiAo7Ak_qL0vEACZEYty8xQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL1JhhyfoA6mKFTf6TkARpwFPyPCiAo7Ak_qL0vEACZEYty8xQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502200614190.4555@deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 20 Feb 2015, Tor Arntsen wrote:

> On 19 February 2015 at 17:40, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>> I suspect it was Borland's extensions to Pascal that removed any limitation
>> in I/O.
>
> That's right.   But there's more than I/O. The academic-tool variant
> of Pascal, as Wirth designed it, was simply useless in practice, or
> extremely cumbersome to use because you couldn't design a function
> which could take arrays of variable sizes as input, you had to declare
> one function for each size. Hopeless. You couldn't do any real data
> processing that way. Turbo Pascal, and every other useful variant,
> e.g. the Pascal I used on a minicomputer, fixed that part, and often
> added I/O extensions in various ways. In short, they made the language
> flexible, and thus usable.
>
Fortunately, I've never been exposed to "as-designed" Pascal.  I suspect 
the people that spend time denigrating Pascal have never been exposed to 
Turbo Pascal.  (...or they're simply idiots. :) )

> Then TP of course had that fast edit-compile-execute cycle, a low
> price, and the super-easy IDE. The learning curve from getting your
> hands on TP to actually use it was very low. Actually the Turbo Pascal
> IDE is still the only IDE I like. I don't use any of the modern ones,
> they are just in the way. But I recently tried the CP/M TP version
> again, haven't used it since the eighties.. and I still like the IDE.
> Re-learned it in seconds.
>
You might want to check out Lazarus.  It's a pretty slick project.  It's 
basically the RAD equivalent to Delphi and uses FPC as the back-end 
compiler.

The text-mode IDE for FPC is very simliar (if not identical) to the Turbo 
Pascal 7.0 IDE.  It's very nice.

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Fri Feb 20 09:22:57 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Shiresoft)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 07:22:57 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>



> On Feb 19, 2015, at 11:35 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 02/19/2015 08:23 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>> 
>> Nope.  It was (and still is) how I write code (sit down and compose at
>> the keyboard).  One of my old bosses at IBM once said "Yea, Guy just
>> waves his hands over the keyboard and programs come out".
> 
> That would have been impossible in my case, unless I had the most prodigious eidetic memory in history.
> 
> Writing code almost always involved using an on-disk or -tape source code library.  Even if it was new code, there were significant advantages to creating a library then modifying it as one progressed.
> 
> One would typically work with a bound listing or listings and work out the control system directives to update the existing code base. Remember, this was in the day of batch processing with almost no access to terminals.  Everything happened on the keypunch.
> 
> So for one to remember all of the correction set IDs and sequence numbers for a group of programs or system programs would be more than impressive--it'd probably merit a vivisection.

;-)

I never said that I didn't / don't use references while I write code.  It's just that I don't write my code down first.  Of course most of what I do is new (from scratch) rather than modifying existing code.

When I first started at IBM because build time for our software was about a week, we'd fix bugs and such with patches.  Folks in the lab would stop looking up the instruction encodings and would just ask me...I could do the assembly in my head...I'm sorely out of practice now.  :-/
> 
> Here was one SCCS utility, UPDATE, used at CDC:
> 
> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cdc/cyber/software/60342500H_UPDATE_Reference_Jan78.pdf
> 
> Another was MODIFY, used on KRONOS, but basically the same functionality as UPDATE.
> 
> So IBM had no SCCS for their system code?  That's mind-boggling.

I used a number of SCMs while I was at IBM.  Many of them home grown.  The last one I used was ORBIT which was internal and later IBM turned it into a program product (with a different name of course).

TTFN - Guy

From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Fri Feb 20 09:49:01 2015
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 09:49:01 -0600
Subject: IBM-11 Card Punch
In-Reply-To: <022801d04d06$472405b0$d56c1110$@gmail.com>
References: <022801d04d06$472405b0$d56c1110$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL9NafEE3EfrpeopFie3kARANocuodWb5qdjDxcR4VPoziZJEA@mail.gmail.com>

Dave,

Nice work! I can see a lot of value in having something like this around,
and it certainly saves floor space compared to a 26. -C

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 6:10 AM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:

> Folks,
>
>
>
> Some time ago I bought an IBM Model-11 electro-mechanical punch on E-Bay.
> It
> was in a bit of a mess as someone had partially dismantled it and not
> re-assembled it properly. It was also missing a couple of the operating
> buttons. I have had some replacement parts made, and re-assembled it
> properly. It now works reasonably well. I have made a short video of it
> operating here:-
>
>
>
> http://youtu.be/ogplYeEYzu8
>
>
>
> Hope you enjoy this.
>
>
>
> Dave Wade
>
> G4UGM
>
>

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Fri Feb 20 11:09:53 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 09:09:53 -0800
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <DUB113-W1281B1DAB18768E6004EF50CB2D0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>
 <011201d04b91$ae598d70$0b0ca850$@classiccmp.org>
 <54E4C8E5.3000500@jwsss.com>
 <CAFrGgTSAm+yKabiWC4+TerLFF_9WA-_Nct43a2HNT-joQV0zvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <613A3490-E0FD-465B-9C87-945651734875@bsdimp.com>
 <DUB113-W1281B1DAB18768E6004EF50CB2D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLLBk+nYk16BVfXnmhGEWhHDN_FcuWNywB1NH6dw9pyLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 5:59 AM, Johannes Thelen
>
> Machine have boot ROMs for terminal, papertape, 79xx drives, C580 disc (what?).


That is CS/80, not C580. You would need to find an 12821A HP-IB
Interface to use that.
http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=486

If you did find one of those then you could use the HPDrive software
on a PC with a GPIB interface to emulate a CS/80 drive.
http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/

From slandon110 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 20 11:20:09 2015
From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:20:09 -0500
Subject: Attention Vintage Telephone Collectors- 2015 TimmyNet Telephone
 Company Swap, Show and Food Drive
Message-ID: <54E76CC9.2020908@gmail.com>

I know alot of us have varied interests.  Some of us into old 
telephones.  So im crossposting this event info here.

Attention Antique Collectors & Telephone Enthusiasts, TimmyNet Telephone 
Company is hosting its first Antique and Classic Telephone Show at the 
Doherty Hotel in Clare Michigan. April 11th 2015 From 8am till 2pm. 
General Admission is 5 dollars or 2 nonperishable food items. For all 
you flea market vendors that have telephones $15 dollars per table plus 
5 dollar registration fee.

We will be having a Food Drive for the Mid Michigan Community Action 
Agency in Clare. So come on out, do some good and lets help the 
community while reliving our youth and see and use some these Classic 
Telephones. Even pick one up for your home for that vintage look. Lots 
of swappers will be on site with some great deals.

TimmyNet Telephone Company will have a number of telephones hooked up. 
You can call out on them anywhere in the USA,

Below is the show flyer and a link for Online registration for those who 
want to swap. Or just give me a call, facebook message or email. My 
contact info is listed on the flyer and website. Doherty Hotel and The 
Lone Pine Motel are offering great room rates for the show

Website is here https://timmynetphoneshow.wordpress.com/
Online Show Registration is here 
http://www.telephonecollectors.org/showReg/signUp.php?eventId=112<http://www.telephonecollectors.org/showReg/signUp.php?eventId=112>

Printable Registration form 
http://www.telephonecollectors.org/shows/2015/Michigan/MichiganRegistration.pdf



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Feb 20 11:39:40 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 17:39:40 -0000
Subject: IBM-11 Card Punch
In-Reply-To: <CAL9NafEE3EfrpeopFie3kARANocuodWb5qdjDxcR4VPoziZJEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <022801d04d06$472405b0$d56c1110$@gmail.com>
 <CAL9NafEE3EfrpeopFie3kARANocuodWb5qdjDxcR4VPoziZJEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <016f01d04d34$34d2e920$9e78bb60$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cory
> Heisterkamp
> Sent: 20 February 2015 15:49
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: IBM-11 Card Punch
> 
> Dave,
> 
> Nice work! I can see a lot of value in having something like this around, and it
> certainly saves floor space compared to a 26. -C
> 

As it is in my loft room , what in the USA you would call the 3rd floor, I don't think I would ever get an 029 or 026 up there. I was once quite competent on these devices. In my first IT job we had a hand punch for small amendments say to JCL or Cobol programs.

Dave

> On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 6:10 AM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Folks,
> >
> >
> >
> > Some time ago I bought an IBM Model-11 electro-mechanical punch on E-
> Bay.
> > It
> > was in a bit of a mess as someone had partially dismantled it and not
> > re-assembled it properly. It was also missing a couple of the
> > operating buttons. I have had some replacement parts made, and
> > re-assembled it properly. It now works reasonably well. I have made a
> > short video of it operating here:-
> >
> >
> >
> > http://youtu.be/ogplYeEYzu8
> >
> >
> >
> > Hope you enjoy this.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dave Wade
> >
> > G4UGM
> >
> >


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri Feb 20 11:44:30 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:44:30 -0500
Subject: IBM-11 Card Punch
In-Reply-To: <CAL9NafEE3EfrpeopFie3kARANocuodWb5qdjDxcR4VPoziZJEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <022801d04d06$472405b0$d56c1110$@gmail.com>
 <CAL9NafEE3EfrpeopFie3kARANocuodWb5qdjDxcR4VPoziZJEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimksCu7To2bBea7OnyuH8xvpEo7ovMmrGX8_S234MNigxA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Cory Heisterkamp
<coryheisterkamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dave,
>
> Nice work! I can see a lot of value in having something like this around,
> and it certainly saves floor space compared to a 26. -C

Desktop device vs desk.  (I have an 026... at least it's a small desk).

-ethan

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Feb 20 11:52:47 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 11:52:47 -0600
Subject: Anybody interested in a Tek 1240 Logic Analyzer ?
Message-ID: <54E7746F.3030104@pico-systems.com>

Folks,

I have a working Tektronix 1240 logic analyzer.  It has 3 
acquisition
cards, one 1240D1  (100 MHz, 9 channel) and two 1240D2 (50 MHz,
18 channel), plus some ram packs and a Z-80 disasm.
I also have a full set of probe pods and spring clip lead sets
for it.

I do want to get a little money for it, maybe $100 plus 
shipping.
Anybody interested?

(I have a much fancier analyzer here, so this has been 
sitting for
some years.  The only downsides to it are no net 
connectivity and
the display format can be a bit slow when zoomed out.  Also,
the memory depth is pretty small.  I forget, but maybe it is
512 samples or something like that.

my email is elson (at) pico (hyphen) systems (period) com

Jon

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Feb 20 12:36:16 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 13:36:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Anybody interested in a Tek 1240 Logic Analyzer ?
Message-ID: <20150220183616.9DCC318C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > Jon Elson

    > I have a working Tektronix 1240 logic analyzer.
    > ... Anybody interested?

If it's not already gone, I will go for this. Thanks!

	Noel

From shadoooo at gmail.com  Fri Feb 20 13:30:10 2015
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 20:30:10 +0100
Subject: 8-inch floppy mailers
Message-ID: <CAM4zSsU4tzt+2WBnq=7cjT8p1PfKXE0M7_NySZJnMdKiU3G5Bg@mail.gmail.com>

hello,
not in the original list, but I could be interested... where are you?
thanks
Andrea

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 20 14:02:00 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:02:00 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <54E792B8.1040003@sydex.com>

On 02/20/2015 07:22 AM, Shiresoft wrote:

> When I first started at IBM because build time for our software was
> about a week, we'd fix bugs and such with patches.  Folks in the lab
> would stop looking up the instruction encodings and would just ask
> me...I could do the assembly in my head...I'm sorely out of practice
> now.  :-/

That's not an unusual skill if you spent hours day after day, poring 
over OS core dumps trying to figure out what went wrong.  I can--and 
suppose many other OS developers also--remember instruction codings for 
machines not seen in decades.

It used to be the custom that one learned to program a computer by first 
learning the instruction opcodes and format.  I recall coding forms 
labeled "IBM 1620 Absolute Programming System".  IIRC (and I'm not sure 
that I do) the flipside was an SPS coding form.

I'm not at all certain that such a skill is even marginally valuable 
today.  Who codes much in assembly, much less machine code?  C has 
firmly established itself in the once memory-constrained MCU world, so 
not even there.

It's a skill of fossils, like being able to recite great chunks of 
Caesar's commentaries on the Gallic War.  At best, most can vaguely 
misquote "Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres"--at worst, many don't 
even know who Caesar was, outside of the name for a salad made with eggs 
and anchovies.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 20 14:04:20 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:04:20 -0800
Subject: 8-inch floppy mailers
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsU4tzt+2WBnq=7cjT8p1PfKXE0M7_NySZJnMdKiU3G5Bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsU4tzt+2WBnq=7cjT8p1PfKXE0M7_NySZJnMdKiU3G5Bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E79344.3030709@sydex.com>

On 02/20/2015 11:30 AM, shadoooo wrote:
> hello,
> not in the original list, but I could be interested... where are you?
> thanks
> Andrea

Forgive me for hijacking the thread, but I've been unsuccessful in 
giving away hundreds of 6x9 and 6x6 5.25" floppy mailers.  I'm in 
Oregon, USA if anyone wants them.

--Chuck




From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Feb 20 14:27:24 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 15:27:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E792B8.1040003@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <54E792B8.1040003@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201502202027.PAA15117@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Folks in the lab would stop looking up the instruction encodings and
>> would just ask me...I could do the assembly in my head...

> [...]
> I'm not at all certain that such a skill is even marginally valuable
> today.  Who codes much in assembly, much less machine code?

Those two sentences are only somewhat related.  Knowing instruction
encoding is important to anyone who is writing or maintaining an
assembler or disassembler.

Or who is working with malware (either generating it or analyzing it)
or other deliberately-obscured code.

Or who is designing, building, or debugging hardware.

Or who is writing or maintaining a hardware simulator.

Not as valuable as in the days when dealing with machine code was a
routine programming task, but, I think, more than "not...even
marginally valuable".  (Personally, I fall into the first, second, and
fourth of those camps: I've done assemblers and disassemblers, I've
picked apart captured malware, and I've done a hardware simulator.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 20 14:38:23 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:38:23 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <201502202027.PAA15117@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <54E792B8.1040003@sydex.com>
 <201502202027.PAA15117@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <54E79B3F.4070809@sydex.com>

On 02/20/2015 12:27 PM, Mouse wrote:
>>> Folks in the lab would stop looking up the instruction encodings and
>>> would just ask me...I could do the assembly in my head...
>
>> [...]
>> I'm not at all certain that such a skill is even marginally valuable
>> today.  Who codes much in assembly, much less machine code?
>
> Those two sentences are only somewhat related.  Knowing instruction
> encoding is important to anyone who is writing or maintaining an
> assembler or disassembler.

Uh, huh--and probably someone writing a good optimizing compiler.  But 
that's how many people outside the vast sea of script kiddies?

To put it another way, how many advertisements for job openings include 
"must recognize and interpret Super Wazoo 800 machine codes"?  I can't 
recall ever having seen such a requirement.  Generally it's something 
one picks up if and when it's needed, not a particularly unique skill, 
such as being able to mentally factor 20 digit integers.

--Chuck



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Feb 20 15:09:27 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 16:09:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E79B3F.4070809@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <54E792B8.1040003@sydex.com>
 <201502202027.PAA15117@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <54E79B3F.4070809@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201502202109.QAA29275@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>>> Folks in the lab would stop looking up the instruction encodings
>>>> and would just ask me...I could do the assembly in my head...
>>> I'm not at all certain that such a skill is even marginally
>>> valuable today.
>> Knowing instruction encoding is important to anyone who is writing
>> or maintaining an assembler or disassembler.  [...and others...]
> Uh, huh--and probably someone writing a good optimizing compiler.
> But that's how many people outside the vast sea of script kiddies?

Not a lot, but, I would say, enough that "not...even marginally
valuable" is not applicable.

> To put it another way, how many advertisements for job openings
> include "must recognize and interpret Super Wazoo 800 machine codes"?

How many ads for jobs include anything like "must be capable of writing
a compiler"?  Yet compilers get written, and writing them is a
valuable, if niche, skill.

Lots of niche jobs aren't advertised widely, sometimes not at all, but
that doesn't make them unimportant.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 20 16:20:43 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 14:20:43 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <201502202109.QAA29275@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <54E792B8.1040003@sydex.com>
 <201502202027.PAA15117@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <54E79B3F.4070809@sydex.com>
 <201502202109.QAA29275@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <54E7B33B.1050501@sydex.com>

On 02/20/2015 01:09 PM, Mouse wrote:

> Lots of niche jobs aren't advertised widely, sometimes not at all, but
> that doesn't make them unimportant.

Like knowing COBOL" :)

--Chuck



From cctalk at fahimi.net  Fri Feb 20 16:32:04 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 14:32:04 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E792B8.1040003@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54
 E792B8.1040003 @sydex.com>
Message-ID: <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>

> I'm not at all certain that such a skill is even marginally valuable
> today.  Who codes much in assembly, much less machine code?  C has
> firmly established itself in the once memory-constrained MCU world, so
> not even there.

Excuse my ignorance but then how is a compiler written? I always thought
that you would need to know op codes and assembler to write a compiler. I.E.
you can't write and efficient compiler by using a high level language.
 



From cctalk at fahimi.net  Fri Feb 20 16:32:04 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 14:32:04 -0800
Subject: 8-inch floppy mailers
In-Reply-To: <54E79344.3030709@sydex.com>
References: <CAM4zSsU4tzt+2WBnq=7cjT8p1PfKXE0M7_NySZJnMdKiU3G5Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E79344.3030709@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <007901d04d5d$0fdaa8f0$2f8ffad0$@net>

> Forgive me for hijacking the thread, but I've been unsuccessful in
> giving away hundreds of 6x9 and 6x6 5.25" floppy mailers.  I'm in
> Oregon, USA if anyone wants them.
> 

As one of the guys who did take up Chuck on his offer I can attest to the quality of the mailers! I've actually mailed a few 5 1/4" disks using these guys since I got them from Chuck.

-Ali


From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Feb 20 16:41:52 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 23:41:52 +0100
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com> <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca> <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54 E792B8.1040003
 @sydex.com> <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
Message-ID: <54E7B830.5070206@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-20 23:32, Ali wrote:
>> I'm not at all certain that such a skill is even marginally valuable
>> today.  Who codes much in assembly, much less machine code?  C has
>> firmly established itself in the once memory-constrained MCU world, so
>> not even there.
>
> Excuse my ignorance but then how is a compiler written? I always thought
> that you would need to know op codes and assembler to write a compiler. I.E.
> you can't write and efficient compiler by using a high level language.

While true, it is becoming less so, as most compilers today generate 
some intermediate code, and then you have a backend which is shared with 
many compilers, who is the part that actually deals with this.

And the people working on the backend is just a subset of the people 
working on compilers.

And even worse, nowadays, it is becoming popular to have C as the 
intermediate language, since you then already have a C compiler that can 
generate the machine code... So some compiler people never go any deeper 
than C...

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 20 16:59:30 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 14:59:30 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com> <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca> <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54 E792B8.1040003
 @sydex.com> <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
Message-ID: <54E7BC52.4080900@sydex.com>

On 02/20/2015 02:32 PM, Ali wrote:

> Excuse my ignorance but then how is a compiler written? I always thought
> that you would need to know op codes and assembler to write a compiler. I.E.
> you can't write and efficient compiler by using a high level language.

You have a front-end, which does the lexical work and translates the 
program into some intermediate form, such as a tree.  In the middle, you 
have optimization and checking--and finally, you have the back end which 
essentially emits code--but that doesn't necessarily imply that the 
compiler author knows the numeric opcodes or the  precise instruction 
format.  Many compiler backends feed into an existing assembler, which 
puts it all together.

Knowing the numeric opcodes and instruction format isn't all that it 
would seem to be.  I never had much more than a passing familiarity with 
the numeric opcodes of the CDC STAR--given that there was 8 bits for the 
opcode and 8 more "modifier" bits, you arguably had a machine with 
thousands of opcodes.  What was hardest and very important was 
committing to memory the *timings* of those instructions, within a 
superscalar, segmented, pipelined vector architecture.

--Chuck


From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Fri Feb 20 17:44:24 2015
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 15:44:24 -0800
Subject: 8-inch floppy mailers
In-Reply-To: <54E79344.3030709@sydex.com>
References: <CAM4zSsU4tzt+2WBnq=7cjT8p1PfKXE0M7_NySZJnMdKiU3G5Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E79344.3030709@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150220154424.6b87397d@asrock.bcwi.net>

Hi Chuck,

On Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:04:20 -0800
Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> Forgive me for hijacking the thread, but I've been unsuccessful in 
> giving away hundreds of 6x9 and 6x6 5.25" floppy mailers.  I'm in 
> Oregon, USA if anyone wants them.

I could use at least 50. How many do you have to give away? :)

Lyle
-- 
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Feb 20 18:02:00 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 00:02:00 -0000
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E7BC52.4080900@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com> <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54 E792B8.1040003
 @sydex.com> <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net> <54E7BC52.4080900
 @sydex.com>
Message-ID: <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
> Guzis
> Sent: 20 February 2015 23:00
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into
COBOL
> 
> On 02/20/2015 02:32 PM, Ali wrote:
> 
> > Excuse my ignorance but then how is a compiler written? I always
> > thought that you would need to know op codes and assembler to write a
> compiler. I.E.
> > you can't write and efficient compiler by using a high level language.
> 

Almost all , so there exceptions,  modern compliers are written in a high
level language. Most use LEXX and YACC or their modern equivalents to
generate the program fragments needed to generate the code.


> You have a front-end, which does the lexical work and translates the
> program into some intermediate form, such as a tree.  In the middle, you
> have optimization and checking--and finally, you have the back end which
> essentially emits code--but that doesn't necessarily imply that the
compiler
> author knows the numeric opcodes or the  precise instruction format.  Many
> compiler backends feed into an existing assembler, which puts it all
together.
> 
> Knowing the numeric opcodes and instruction format isn't all that it would
> seem to be.  I never had much more than a passing familiarity with the
> numeric opcodes of the CDC STAR--given that there was 8 bits for the
> opcode and 8 more "modifier" bits, you arguably had a machine with
> thousands of opcodes.  What was hardest and very important was
> committing to memory the *timings* of those instructions, within a
> superscalar, segmented, pipelined vector architecture.
> 
> --Chuck



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Fri Feb 20 18:44:29 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 17:44:29 -0700
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54 E792B8.1040003
 @sydex.com> <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net> <54E7BC52.4080900
 @sydex.com> <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/20/2015 5:02 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:

> Almost all , so there exceptions,  modern compliers are written in a high
> level language. Most use LEXX and YACC or their modern equivalents to
> generate the program fragments needed to generate the code.
>

I would say that is 50%. If you have LEXX and YACC you tend have a
UNIX system with a C compiler.

>> You have a front-end, which does the lexical work and translates the
>> program into some intermediate form, such as a tree.  In the middle, you
>> have optimization and checking--and finally, you have the back end which
>> essentially emits code--but that doesn't necessarily imply that the
> compiler
>> author knows the numeric opcodes or the  precise instruction format.  Many
>> compiler backends feed into an existing assembler, which puts it all
> together.

How do handle byte operations in C like *x++ on a PDP 10?

>> Knowing the numeric opcodes and instruction format isn't all that it would
>> seem to be.  I never had much more than a passing familiarity with the
>> numeric opcodes of the CDC STAR--given that there was 8 bits for the
>> opcode and 8 more "modifier" bits, you arguably had a machine with
>> thousands of opcodes.  What was hardest and very important was
>> committing to memory the *timings* of those instructions, within a
>> superscalar, segmented, pipelined vector architecture.

Time for POWER code re-arrangement.

>>
>> --Chuck
>
Ben.



From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Feb 20 18:46:19 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 01:46:19 +0100
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54 E792B8.1040003
 @sydex.com> <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net> <54E7BC52.4080900
 @sydex.com> <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E7D55B.1010003@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-21 01:02, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
>> Guzis
>> Sent: 20 February 2015 23:00
>> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
>> Topic Posts
>> Subject: Re: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into
> COBOL
>>
>> On 02/20/2015 02:32 PM, Ali wrote:
>>
>>> Excuse my ignorance but then how is a compiler written? I always
>>> thought that you would need to know op codes and assembler to write a
>> compiler. I.E.
>>> you can't write and efficient compiler by using a high level language.
>>
>
> Almost all , so there exceptions,  modern compliers are written in a high
> level language. Most use LEXX and YACC or their modern equivalents to
> generate the program fragments needed to generate the code.

Uh... LEX and YACC are used for the frontend side. They do not have 
anything to do with code generation. :-)
Using LEX and YACC, you will still need to write the code that actually 
generates the output from the whole thing. LEX and YACC essentially 
implements the parsing of the source code for you.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Fri Feb 20 18:49:58 2015
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 00:49:58 +0000
Subject: What resolution should I scan a missing print set at?
In-Reply-To: <20150219013339.AB73118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150219013339.AB73118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54E7D636.9000204@ntlworld.com>

On 19/02/15 01:33, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> Hi all, I have a PDP-11 print set (MP00196, M9301 Bootstrap/Terminator) which
> is not online. I wish to scan my copy, and donate the scan to all the
> repositories.  What resolution should I scan it at?
>
> I looked at a couple that are available as TIFFs, and they claim to be 600 dpi
> - that can't be right, is it? If it is, no problem, I'm happy to do it at that
> resolution, but I just don't want to do silly overkill.
>

I'm a few days behind on my reading, but I'll chip in anyway.

I'd vote for 600dpi B&W G4 encoded. As has been said, these days disk 
space is cheap and bandwidth is readily available.

Anyone who wanted 300dpi for some reason  could (in principle) 
post-process to achieve that. Going the other way
only ever happens on CSI :-)

Antonio
arcarlini at iee.org



From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Feb 20 18:51:25 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 01:51:25 +0100
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54 E792B8.1040003
 @sydex.com> <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net> <54E7BC52.4080900
 @sydex.com> <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
 <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <54E7D68D.5080608@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-21 01:44, ben wrote:
> On 2/20/2015 5:02 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>
>> Almost all , so there exceptions,  modern compliers are written in a high
>> level language. Most use LEXX and YACC or their modern equivalents to
>> generate the program fragments needed to generate the code.
>>
>
> I would say that is 50%. If you have LEXX and YACC you tend have a
> UNIX system with a C compiler.

You don't even have that. LEX and YACC will give you the basics of the 
parsing of the source code. Everything beyond that, you still have to write.

>>> You have a front-end, which does the lexical work and translates the
>>> program into some intermediate form, such as a tree.  In the middle, you
>>> have optimization and checking--and finally, you have the back end which
>>> essentially emits code--but that doesn't necessarily imply that the
>> compiler
>>> author knows the numeric opcodes or the  precise instruction format.
>>> Many
>>> compiler backends feed into an existing assembler, which puts it all
>> together.
>
> How do handle byte operations in C like *x++ on a PDP 10?

Do you need information on how byte operations and byte pointers work on 
a PDP-10?

KCC, which is the one C compiler for the PDP-10 I sortof know something 
about, use 9 bit chars, and of course you then get four bytes to a word. 
Not sure what in your question is hard to see how it is done.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Fri Feb 20 19:11:18 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 01:11:18 +0000
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E7D68D.5080608@update.uu.se>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
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 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
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 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54 E792B8.1040003
 @sydex.com> <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net> <54E7BC52.4080900
 @sydex.com> <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
 <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E7D68D.5080608@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DA3BB9@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Johnny Billquist
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 4:51 PM

> On 2015-02-21 01:44, ben wrote:

>> How do handle byte operations in C like *x++ on a PDP 10?

> Do you need information on how byte operations and byte pointers work on 
> a PDP-10?

> KCC, which is the one C compiler for the PDP-10 I sortof know something 
> about, use 9 bit chars, and of course you then get four bytes to a word. 
> Not sure what in your question is hard to see how it is done.

Are you even certain that it is a byte operation???  All I see is an increment
of an object in memory pointed to by the variable "x".

Now, had we been told what the declaration of "x" is, the question would be
more meaningful, but if it's something less than word sized, then the byte
manipulation instructions would work just fine.

I don't see a problem, and think that this is a pretty weak straw man.

                                                                Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 20 19:26:11 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 17:26:11 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
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 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54 E792B8.1040003
 @sydex.com> <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net> <54E7BC52.4080900
 @sydex.com> <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
 <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com>

On 02/20/2015 04:44 PM, ben wrote:

> How do handle byte operations in C like *x++ on a PDP 10?

I'm only passingly familiar with fORTRAN on the PDP-10, not C.  But the 
tapes that I've worked with packed 5-7 bit characters into a word with a 
bit left over.  In C, does an int have to be an exact number of chars long?

But, for that matter, how do you handle byte operations if they're not 6 
bit/12 bit on a CDC 6600 in c? (60 bit words).

--Chuck



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Fri Feb 20 19:29:36 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 18:29:36 -0700
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DA3BB9@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com> <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54 E792B8.1040003
 @sydex.com> <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net> <54E7BC52.4080900
 @sydex.com> <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
 <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E7D68D.5080608@update.uu.se>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DA3BB9@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <54E7DF80.2040809@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/20/2015 6:11 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
> From: Johnny Billquist
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 4:51 PM
>
>> On 2015-02-21 01:44, ben wrote:
>
>>> How do handle byte operations in C like *x++ on a PDP 10?
>
>> Do you need information on how byte operations and byte pointers work on
>> a PDP-10?
>
>> KCC, which is the one C compiler for the PDP-10 I sortof know something
>> about, use 9 bit chars, and of course you then get four bytes to a word.
>> Not sure what in your question is hard to see how it is done.
>
> Are you even certain that it is a byte operation???  All I see is an increment
> of an object in memory pointed to by the variable "x".

The hint here was 'byte operations'.

> Now, had we been told what the declaration of "x" is, the question would be
> more meaningful, but if it's something less than word sized, then the byte
> manipulation instructions would work just fine.

I don't use a 10 so I forgot, both left and right half's of word would 
be used there.

> I don't see a problem, and think that this is a pretty weak straw man.
>
>                                                                  Rich
>
> Rich Alderson
> Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
> Living Computer Museum
> 2245 1st Avenue S
> Seattle, WA 98134
>
> mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
>
> http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
>


From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Feb 20 19:36:16 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 02:36:16 +0100
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DA3BB9@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com> <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
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 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
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 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
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 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54 E792B8.1040003
 @sydex.com> <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net> <54E7BC52.4080900
 @sydex.com> <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <54E7E110.5030406@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-21 02:11, Rich Alderson wrote:
> From: Johnny Billquist
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 4:51 PM
>
>> On 2015-02-21 01:44, ben wrote:
>
>>> How do handle byte operations in C like *x++ on a PDP 10?
>
>> Do you need information on how byte operations and byte pointers work on
>> a PDP-10?
>
>> KCC, which is the one C compiler for the PDP-10 I sortof know something
>> about, use 9 bit chars, and of course you then get four bytes to a word.
>> Not sure what in your question is hard to see how it is done.
>
> Are you even certain that it is a byte operation???  All I see is an increment
> of an object in memory pointed to by the variable "x".

Good point. I just assumed that x was a char pointer. But actually, 
unless I'm confused, it's a dereference of x (which is some kind of 
pointer), followed by an increment of that pointer. But I could be 
remembering wrong in which order these operations bind.

> Now, had we been told what the declaration of "x" is, the question would be
> more meaningful, but if it's something less than word sized, then the byte
> manipulation instructions would work just fine.
>
> I don't see a problem, and think that this is a pretty weak straw man.

Agree. Not sure what ben was trying to make of this. No matter which way 
to read things, there are no special problems on a PDP-10.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 20 19:40:50 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 17:40:50 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E7D55B.1010003@update.uu.se>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
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 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
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 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54 E792B8.1040003
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 @sydex.com> <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <54E7E222.9050201@sydex.com>

"Bootstrapping" compiler code is quite common.  So, it's not unusual to 
find FORTRAN source code in FORTRAN compilers, etc.  I doubt that many 
compilers are written entirely in assembly nowadays.

For example, back in the late 70s, I put together a business BASIC 
compiler for the 8080/8085.  Theoretically, it was coded in assembly, 
but it wasn't 8085 assembly.  The technique was to code in a 
platform-independent assembly language whose data types and operations 
match the language elements that you're working with--words, numbers, 
tokens, etc.  Then one codes a small emulator in whatever is handy for 
the target system to get code generation shaken out.  Finally, one 
implements the final compiler by taking the specialized machine and
converting them via macros to native assembly.

We coded our emulator and macro processor in PL/M.  They were very 
simple and let us get on with the job of writing a compiler.

When it came time to convert to x86 code, it was a walk in the park, as 
very little of the compiler needed recoding.  The code was subsequently 
moved to Xenix and was in production as late as 5 years ago, even though 
the original company and hardware had been gone for decades.

ISTR that Ryan-McFarland did their implementations the same way back in 
the day.   I still have the original "printed-on-a-Teletype Model 40 
printer" design document that I did.

--Chuck



From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Feb 20 19:42:58 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 02:42:58 +0100
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54 E792B8.1040003
 @sydex.com> <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net> <54E7BC52.4080900
 @sydex.com> <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
 <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-21 02:26, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/20/2015 04:44 PM, ben wrote:
>
>> How do handle byte operations in C like *x++ on a PDP 10?
>
> I'm only passingly familiar with fORTRAN on the PDP-10, not C.  But the
> tapes that I've worked with packed 5-7 bit characters into a word with a
> bit left over.  In C, does an int have to be an exact number of chars long?
>
> But, for that matter, how do you handle byte operations if they're not 6
> bit/12 bit on a CDC 6600 in c? (60 bit words).

Misunderstanding 1: a char do not need to be 8 bits.

Also, an int is defined to be whatever size makes most sense on a 
machine. It can be any number of bits. The only thing guaranteed is that 
an int is between a short and a long in size. (They can all be equal.)

All that said, much C code make way more assumptions than the standard 
allows. Plenty of sloppy programmers around.

And all that said, I do think the basic "unit" must be the same in all 
places. So if you report sizeof as 9-bit chunks somewhere, it needs to 
be 9-bit chunks everywhere else as well.
So you cannot have sizeof(int) == sizeof(char), unless they actually 
contain the same number of bits. And since sizeof returns an integer, 
you pretty much also needs to make one a multiple of the other as far as 
number of bits goes.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Feb 20 19:46:04 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 02:46:04 +0100
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E7E222.9050201@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54 E792B8.1040003
 @sydex.com> <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net> <54E7BC52.4080900
 @sydex.com> <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
 <54E7D55B.1010003@update.uu.se> <54E7E222.9050201@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54E7E35C.2010001@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-21 02:40, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> "Bootstrapping" compiler code is quite common.  So, it's not unusual to
> find FORTRAN source code in FORTRAN compilers, etc.  I doubt that many
> compilers are written entirely in assembly nowadays.

I would dare to say that pretty much none are, and none have been for 
the last 30 years at least.

> For example, back in the late 70s, I put together a business BASIC
> compiler for the 8080/8085.  Theoretically, it was coded in assembly,
> but it wasn't 8085 assembly.  The technique was to code in a
> platform-independent assembly language whose data types and operations
> match the language elements that you're working with--words, numbers,
> tokens, etc.  Then one codes a small emulator in whatever is handy for
> the target system to get code generation shaken out.  Finally, one
> implements the final compiler by taking the specialized machine and
> converting them via macros to native assembly.

Yes. That is pretty much how compilers work today as well. You compile 
to some abstract intermediate form, and then you have a backend that 
translates into actual machine code for the target machine.

It's been that way for a long time...

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Feb 20 23:47:35 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 22:47:35 -0700
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com>
 <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
 <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com>
 <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
> Misunderstanding 1: a char do not need to be 8 bits.
>
> Also, an int is defined to be whatever size makes most sense on a machine.
> It can be any number of bits. The only thing guaranteed is that an int is
> between a short and a long in size. (They can all be equal.)
[...]
> And since sizeof returns an integer, you pretty much also needs to make
> one a multiple of the other as far as number of bits goes.

That's a directly stated requirement, not just a consequence of
sizeof, though likely sizeof(), memcpy(), and many other library
functions provide some of the rationale for the requirement.

All C data types except bit fields must have a size that is an integer
multiple of CHAR_BIT bits, which is the number of bits in the char
type.
     ISO/IEC 9899 2nd Ed. ?6.2.6.1 ?2, 4

C also requires that the size of a character be at least 8 bits.
    ISO/IEC 9899 2nd Ed. ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1

memcpy() is specifically defined to copy characters.
    ISO/IEC 9899 2nd Ed. ?7.21.2.1 ?2
and many other standard library functions are used similarly to deal
with any type of C object as being composed of characters.

These rules are why it's not possible for a conformant C
implementation on a PDP-10 to have 6-bit characters, nor for it to
have 7-bit or 8-bit characters but 18-bit or 36-bit integers.  A
conformant implementation of C on a PDP-10 could have 9-bit, 12-bit,
18-bit, or 36-bit characters, with 9-bit probably providing the
greatest utility.

Alternatively, a conformant implementation on the PDP-10 could have
8-bit characters and all other types (including pointers!) being a
multiple of that, with four bits per native 36-bit word going to
waste. That would better suit portability of code from platforms with
8-bit characters, but would be rather less efficient since arithmetic
code would have to include extra steps to mask the native 36-bit
values to the size of the relevant C types, even for intermediate
results within expressions.

One can argue that a not-quite-C compiler for a PDP-10 that supported
6-, 7-, and 8-bit character types as well as 18-bit and 36-bit
integers would be useful, but by definition it wouldn't actually be C.

From dave at 661.org  Sat Feb 21 01:14:22 2015
From: dave at 661.org (Dave G.)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 07:14:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: 8-inch floppy mailers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502200316170.2328@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502200316170.2328@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502210714100.7205@nyx.feedle.net>

On Fri, 20 Feb 2015, Dave G. wrote:

> A couple years ago announced here that I had 40 8-inch floppy mailers. 
> Four people wanted them, but I cannot get in touch with them any more. 
> So, here it is again: 40 8-inch floppy mailers for shipping.

Mailers have been claimed.  Thanks!

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 21 01:37:15 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 23:37:15 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com>
 <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com> <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com> <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54E835AB.40905@sydex.com>

On 02/20/2015 09:47 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> One can argue that a not-quite-C compiler for a PDP-10 that supported
> 6-, 7-, and 8-bit character types as well as 18-bit and 36-bit
> integers would be useful, but by definition it wouldn't actually be C.

What does the C standard say about the physical size of an int in bits, 
versus the largest and smallest integer that can be held in those bits?
Consider a 64 bit int which is a simple degenerate floating point number 
with 16 bits of mantissa (presumably set to 0) and 48 signed bits of 
mantissa.  All math done in unnormalized floating point.

Does C require 1's or 2's complement or can it support sign-magnitude 
integers?

--Chuck


From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 04:02:11 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 02:02:11 -0800
Subject: IBM-11 Card Punch
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1424455200.66038.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1424455200.66038.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <7BE9497995614AFE9CAFFAE00472E3F1@workshop>

Great work and cute card punch! Some similarly gifted folks at CHM are just
rebuilding an IBM 01 right now, and it's equally cute and minimalist and
bullet proof. They tell me it's how you'd re-punch a bad card in a hurry in
the middle of a jammed job. 

I can't resist a shameless plug at my own 029 restoration. Machine discovery
and hauling back from Kansas to California courtesy of Carl Claunch, who has
been busy since getting the IBM 1130 (and own 029) he brought back into
action. But this extra 029 gave me a satisfying, if modest, first
electro-mechanical restoration project, from nothing working at all to full
up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnnGbcM-H8c&list=PL-_93BVApb59yIG2RELONEYOzJ
3lMXsqV

Marc

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 6:10 AM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:

> Folks,
> Some time ago I bought an IBM Model-11 electro-mechanical punch on E-Bay.
> It
> was in a bit of a mess as someone had partially dismantled it and not
> re-assembled it properly. It was also missing a couple of the operating
> buttons. I have had some replacement parts made, and re-assembled it
> properly. It now works reasonably well. I have made a short video of it
> operating here:-
> http://youtu.be/ogplYeEYzu8
> Hope you enjoy this.
> Dave Wade
> G4UGM



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 04:14:06 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 10:14:06 -0000
Subject: IBM-11 Card Punch
In-Reply-To: <7BE9497995614AFE9CAFFAE00472E3F1@workshop>
References: <mailman.1.1424455200.66038.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <7BE9497995614AFE9CAFFAE00472E3F1@workshop>
Message-ID: <002801d04dbf$202eba90$608c2fb0$@gmail.com>

That's nice. Seems real familiar even though after university I seldom used
one. My cards were usually punched for me from a coding sheet...
... but I did use a hand punch as you say for quick corrections. There must
have been so many of the 029  made, yet so few survive...

The room where these tqo are, I am sure hel about a dozen...

http://history.cs.ncl.ac.uk/anniversaries/40th/images/ibm370_1682/11.html

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Marc
> Verdiell
> Sent: 21 February 2015 10:02
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: IBM-11 Card Punch
> 
> Great work and cute card punch! Some similarly gifted folks at CHM are
just
> rebuilding an IBM 01 right now, and it's equally cute and minimalist and
bullet
> proof. They tell me it's how you'd re-punch a bad card in a hurry in the
middle
> of a jammed job.
> 
> I can't resist a shameless plug at my own 029 restoration. Machine
discovery
> and hauling back from Kansas to California courtesy of Carl Claunch, who
has
> been busy since getting the IBM 1130 (and own 029) he brought back into
> action. But this extra 029 gave me a satisfying, if modest, first electro-
> mechanical restoration project, from nothing working at all to full up.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnnGbcM-H8c&list=PL-
> _93BVApb59yIG2RELONEYOzJ
> 3lMXsqV
> 
> Marc
> 
> On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 6:10 AM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Folks,
> > Some time ago I bought an IBM Model-11 electro-mechanical punch on E-
> Bay.
> > It
> > was in a bit of a mess as someone had partially dismantled it and not
> > re-assembled it properly. It was also missing a couple of the
> > operating buttons. I have had some replacement parts made, and
> > re-assembled it properly. It now works reasonably well. I have made a
> > short video of it operating here:-
> > http://youtu.be/ogplYeEYzu8
> > Hope you enjoy this.
> > Dave Wade
> > G4UGM
> 



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 04:17:41 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 10:17:41 -0000
Subject: IBM-11 Card Punch
In-Reply-To: <7BE9497995614AFE9CAFFAE00472E3F1@workshop>
References: <mailman.1.1424455200.66038.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <7BE9497995614AFE9CAFFAE00472E3F1@workshop>
Message-ID: <002901d04dbf$a0425b60$e0c71220$@gmail.com>

Here is another piccy from Newcastle...

http://history.cs.ncl.ac.uk/anniversaries/40th/images/ibm370_1682/26.jpg

I think there were 2250's in that room as well, and a couple of storage
scope terminals...

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Marc
> Verdiell
> Sent: 21 February 2015 10:02
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: IBM-11 Card Punch
> 
> Great work and cute card punch! Some similarly gifted folks at CHM are
just
> rebuilding an IBM 01 right now, and it's equally cute and minimalist and
bullet
> proof. They tell me it's how you'd re-punch a bad card in a hurry in the
middle
> of a jammed job.
> 
> I can't resist a shameless plug at my own 029 restoration. Machine
discovery
> and hauling back from Kansas to California courtesy of Carl Claunch, who
has
> been busy since getting the IBM 1130 (and own 029) he brought back into
> action. But this extra 029 gave me a satisfying, if modest, first electro-
> mechanical restoration project, from nothing working at all to full up.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnnGbcM-H8c&list=PL-
> _93BVApb59yIG2RELONEYOzJ
> 3lMXsqV
> 
> Marc
> 
> On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 6:10 AM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Folks,
> > Some time ago I bought an IBM Model-11 electro-mechanical punch on E-
> Bay.
> > It
> > was in a bit of a mess as someone had partially dismantled it and not
> > re-assembled it properly. It was also missing a couple of the
> > operating buttons. I have had some replacement parts made, and
> > re-assembled it properly. It now works reasonably well. I have made a
> > short video of it operating here:-
> > http://youtu.be/ogplYeEYzu8
> > Hope you enjoy this.
> > Dave Wade
> > G4UGM
> 



From spc at conman.org  Sat Feb 21 04:38:58 2015
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 05:38:58 -0500
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E835AB.40905@sydex.com>
References: <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com> <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com> <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E835AB.40905@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150221103858.GB3738@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated:
> On 02/20/2015 09:47 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> 
> >One can argue that a not-quite-C compiler for a PDP-10 that supported
> >6-, 7-, and 8-bit character types as well as 18-bit and 36-bit
> >integers would be useful, but by definition it wouldn't actually be C.
> 
> What does the C standard say about the physical size of an int in bits, 
> versus the largest and smallest integer that can be held in those bits?

  The constraints are:

	sizeof(short) <= sizeof(int)
	sizeof(int)   <= sizeof(long)
	sizeof(short) <  sizeof(long)

And the minumum ranges are:

	signed short	       -32,767 ..        32,767
	signed int	       -32,767 ..        32,767
	signed long	-2,147,483,647 .. 2,147,483,647

	unsigned short	             0 ..        65,536
	unsigned int	             0 ..        65,536
	unsigned long	             0 .. 4,294,967,296

Of course, they can be larger.  For instance, this is legal:

	sizeof(short) == 2
	sizeof(int)   == 4
	sizeof(long)  == 8

By defintion, sizeof(char) == 1, and the minimum range is

	signed char	-127 .. 127
	unsigned char	   0 .. 255

> Does C require 1's or 2's complement or can it support sign-magnitude 
> integers?

  Given the defined ranges, and the fact that signed overflow is undefined
behavior, I think C can be used on sign-magnitude and 1's complement
machines (however few those are).   Unsigned overflow is defined to wrap
around to 0.

  -spc


From lars at nocrew.org  Sat Feb 21 05:06:56 2015
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 12:06:56 +0100
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca> (ben's message of "Fri\,
 20 Feb 2015 17\:44\:29 -0700")
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com>
 <54E68E34.9020405@syde x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com>
 <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54
 E792B8.1040003 @sydex.com> <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <54E7BC52.4080900 @sydex.com>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
 <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <85mw47y14f.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> writes:
> How do handle byte operations in C like *x++ on a PDP 10?

With the instruction called ILBP - increment and load byte pointer.
(Actually, it's more like *++x.)

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Feb 21 07:10:23 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 08:10:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Anyone need spare 11/05 - 11/10 keys?
Message-ID: <20150221131023.40A5118C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>


    > I'm about to go back for two more: does anyone else need one/any? If
    > so, please let me know 
    > ...
    > does anyone know for sure if all 11/05's and 11/10's use the same key?
    > (This is a standard, flat 'Yale'-type key, not the cylindrical key used
    > in the 11/45's, etc.)

So it seems that they all do use the same key; some test units I sent to one
person worked fine in their machine too.

I have just sent email to everyone who responded about wanting keys; if you
wanted keys, and did _not_ get that email from me, please email me now so I
can add you to the list. Or, if you didn't reply before, and have decided you
do in fact want some - they will be about $1.50 per key, plus postage - let
me know. (Although I will likely be able to get these keys made for the
indefinite future, so it's not 'now or never'.)

	Noel

From imp at bsdimp.com  Sat Feb 21 08:11:50 2015
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 06:11:50 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com>
 <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com> <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com> <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5DAE0B55-5DE2-4FBB-8A6B-D59E1423F5A1@bsdimp.com>


> On Feb 20, 2015, at 9:47 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> One can argue that a not-quite-C compiler for a PDP-10 that supported
> 6-, 7-, and 8-bit character types as well as 18-bit and 36-bit
> integers would be useful, but by definition it wouldn't actually be C.

The one C compiler that was written at my University for the Tops-20
allowed you to select 6, 7, 8 or 9-bit chars. This was written in 1984-88
or so, and was a pure K&R compiler with prototypes added. This was,
at the time, standards conforming because K&R didn?t require any of
that fancy ANSI-C stuff (which was still years away).

There were a number of tricks used to make the math work out right,
since the architecture was word addressed. IIRC, it relied on char *
pointers being ?special?. All pointers were 36-bit in size, with some
of the upper bits being used to address sub-word quantities for
character operations. The character size was, iirc, fixed for all
compilation units.

The compiler was a wizard at figuring out all the nuances. But since
only 22 of the 36 bits could ever be used for an address, the extra
bits in pointers were otherwise ?wasted?. It make conversion between
int and pointers and doing math on them somewhat undefined or
at least somewhat different than one would otherwise expect.
Sadly, at the time a metric truckload of code expected pointers and
ints to be freely convertible, and all pointers to be byte addressable
with a linear space.

It was ?C? enough that most things ran well enough. Many constructs
that you wouldn?t think would work in this mixed up, jumbled up world
actually did work. Also, IIRC, there was no such thing as a void *
in this compiler (and if there was it would be identical to a char *).
But it did mean that something like:

	char ch[10];
	char *cp = ch + 5;

	(char *)(int *)cp;	/* Might not equal cp any more */

gcc has (had?) a pdp10 mode to support the toad-1, but I never used
that. And I stopped using Greg Titus? C compiler back in ?89 when I left
school. It was sold to some outfit out of Santa Fe and Greg moved there
about the same time I left school to support it. Not sure what ever
happened to him after that. He also taught my intro to C class, so I
learned all manner of ?safe? C perversion from him?.

Warner

From linimon at lonesome.com  Sat Feb 21 08:27:39 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 08:27:39 -0600
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <5DAE0B55-5DE2-4FBB-8A6B-D59E1423F5A1@bsdimp.com>
References: <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
 <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com>
 <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DAE0B55-5DE2-4FBB-8A6B-D59E1423F5A1@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <20150221142739.GA10647@lonesome.com>

On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 06:11:50AM -0800, Warner Losh wrote:
> Sadly, at the time a metric truckload of code expected pointers and
> ints to be freely convertible, and all pointers to be byte addressable
> with a linear space.

dunno if you've looked at the FreeBSD Ports Collection lately, but ...

(nb: I've been looking at results from arm64/mips64 ports builds on
FreeBSD.  There are so many bad assumptions ...)

mcl

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 09:41:14 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 15:41:14 -0000
Subject: EAI TR-20 on E-Bay (Not Mine)
Message-ID: <005501d04dec$d3526f40$79f74dc0$@gmail.com>

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EAI-Pace-TR-20-Analog-Vintage-Computer-/181672277570

 

Now with a starting price that lets you get in fight over it

 

Dave

G4UGM

 

 

 


From andy.holt at tesco.net  Sat Feb 21 09:51:47 2015
From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 15:51:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: EAI TR-20 on E-Bay (Not Mine)
In-Reply-To: <005501d04dec$d3526f40$79f74dc0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <500754487.1375590.1424533907225.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>

and affordable shipping to the UK.
But, with that latch on the right hand side looks like it might be intended to be used with a removeable patchboard which is not included.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave G4UGM" <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, 21 February, 2015 3:41:14 PM
Subject: EAI TR-20 on E-Bay (Not Mine)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EAI-Pace-TR-20-Analog-Vintage-Computer-/181672277570

 

Now with a starting price that lets you get in fight over it

 

Dave

G4UGM

 

 

 


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 09:54:22 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 15:54:22 -0000
Subject: EAI TR-20 on E-Bay (Not Mine)
In-Reply-To: <500754487.1375590.1424533907225.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
References: <005501d04dec$d3526f40$79f74dc0$@gmail.com>
 <500754487.1375590.1424533907225.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <005a01d04dee$a9ad81a0$fd0884e0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ANDY
> HOLT
> Sent: 21 February 2015 15:52
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: EAI TR-20 on E-Bay (Not Mine)
> 
> and affordable shipping to the UK.
> But, with that latch on the right hand side looks like it might be intended to
> be used with a removeable patchboard which is not included.

Pretty sure you can just plug straight into the back board. The removable patch board has fingers that fit into the normal 4mm sockets and "dummy" front plates. I am pretty sure if that?s the quoted shipping he has the weight wrong.....

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave G4UGM" <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Saturday, 21 February, 2015 3:41:14 PM
> Subject: EAI TR-20 on E-Bay (Not Mine)
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EAI-Pace-TR-20-Analog-Vintage-Computer-
> /181672277570
> 
> 
> 
> Now with a starting price that lets you get in fight over it
> 
> 
> 
> Dave
> 
> G4UGM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Sat Feb 21 11:03:00 2015
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 12:03:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: EAI TR-20 on E-Bay (Not Mine)
In-Reply-To: <005501d04dec$d3526f40$79f74dc0$@gmail.com>
References: <005501d04dec$d3526f40$79f74dc0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502211201550.65462@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Sat, 21 Feb 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote:

> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EAI-Pace-TR-20-Analog-Vintage-Computer-/181672277570
>
> Now with a starting price that lets you get in fight over it

    He's in for a shock when he ships it.  I shipped one from PA to ME a 
couple of years ago, and the cost was in excess of $150.


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Feb 21 11:07:08 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 09:07:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150221103858.GB3738@brevard.conman.org>
References: <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com> <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com> <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E835AB.40905@sydex.com> <20150221103858.GB3738@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <20150221085606.U93873@shell.lmi.net>

Keep in mind, that K&R C is a C, not just "C like", without many of the
restrictions of ANSI C.

I actually agree with most of the ANSI CHANGES to C.
BUT, K&R C IS C, not "C like", in spite of not being "ANSI C"


On Sat, 21 Feb 2015, Sean Conner wrote:
> > >6-, 7-, and 8-bit character types as well as 18-bit and 36-bit
> > >integers would be useful, but by definition it wouldn't actually be C.

Some minor NITS:

>   The constraints are:
> 	sizeof(short) <= sizeof(int)
> 	sizeof(int)   <= sizeof(long)
> 	sizeof(short) <  sizeof(long)

IIRC, K&R permitted sizeof(short) <= sizeof(long)

You COULD build a C with 32 bits for every type.
You COULD build a C with 16 bits for every type, but hopefully would not.

Memory was more limited in those days; IIRC, K&R warned against assuming
that sizeof(char*) == sizeof(int)


> 	unsigned short	             0 ..        65,536
> 	unsigned int	             0 ..        65,536
those should be       0 .. 65535


> And the minumum ranges are:
> 	signed short	       -32,767 ..        32,767
> 	signed int	       -32,767 ..        32,767
16 bit 2's complement goes from -32768 ... 32767
does the ANSI standard leave off the -32768?
(not objecting, just curious)

likewise
> 	signed long	-2,147,483,647 .. 2,147,483,647
                        -2,147,483,648



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 21 11:51:52 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 09:51:52 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150221103858.GB3738@brevard.conman.org>
References: <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com> <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com> <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E835AB.40905@sydex.com> <20150221103858.GB3738@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <54E8C5B8.4090806@sydex.com>

On 02/21/2015 02:38 AM, Sean Conner wrote:

>    Given the defined ranges, and the fact that signed overflow is undefined
> behavior, I think C can be used on sign-magnitude and 1's complement
> machines (however few those are).   Unsigned overflow is defined to wrap
> around to 0.

You miss my point, I think.  I'll try again.

Consider a machine with a word length of 64 bits.  This machine 
represents floating point numbers with a 16 bit exponent and a 48 bit 
mantissa (nothing unusual so far).

So we have the length of short = int = long = 64 bits.  So far so good.

However, given such a generous word length, the designers of this 
machine decide not to dedicate special hardware toward handling 64 bit 
integers, but have said that 48 bits should be long enough for anyone, 
and so treat integer arithmetic as a subset of floating point 
(straightforward enough).   So not all values of a 64 bit word reflect 
valid integers--the exponent must be a certain value--anything else is 
floating point.

Now, here's where we get into sticky territory.  Since C draws no data 
type distinctions between bitwise logical operations on ints and 
arithmetic operations, is it possible to implement C on this machine? 
It should be obvious that bitwise logical operations on a 64 bit int, 
whose upper 16 bits must conform to a special case of a float, that all 
logical operations on an int do not result in legal int values.

-------------------

As far as "bytes" on systems, perhaps the attribute of byte 
addressability makes sense on short word-length machines, but I don't 
believe that it's necessary for longer word length machines.  A decent 
set of shifting and masking primitives operating on whole words has been 
known to work as well, and in some cases better than a machine that 
dedicates hardware toward addressing sub-word-length items.  I think 
byte addressing is more a matter of functional fixedness more than 
anything else.

--Chuck




From evan at snarc.net  Sat Feb 21 12:12:56 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 13:12:56 -0500
Subject: EAI TR-20 on E-Bay (Not Mine)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502211201550.65462@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <005501d04dec$d3526f40$79f74dc0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502211201550.65462@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <54E8CAA8.5060806@snarc.net>


> He's in for a shock when he ships it.  I shipped one from PA to ME a 
> couple of years ago, and the cost was in excess of $150. 

Agreed. I've moved the MARCH one a few times. That is a * dense * 
machine for something so (relatively) small. There is a reason we keep 
it on a cart with wheels.

From evan at snarc.net  Sat Feb 21 12:14:40 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 13:14:40 -0500
Subject: EAI TR-20 on E-Bay (Not Mine)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502211201550.65462@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <005501d04dec$d3526f40$79f74dc0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502211201550.65462@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <54E8CB10.30407@snarc.net>


> He's in for a shock when he ships it.  I shipped one from PA to ME a 
> couple of years ago, and the cost was in excess of $150. 

Seller updated the ad:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EAI-Pace-TR-20-Analog-Vintage-Computer-/181672901097

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 12:23:53 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 18:23:53 -0000
Subject: EAI TR-20 on E-Bay (Not Mine)
In-Reply-To: <54E8CB10.30407@snarc.net>
References: <005501d04dec$d3526f40$79f74dc0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502211201550.65462@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <54E8CB10.30407@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <00c201d04e03$8c8b1d20$a5a15760$@gmail.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan
> Koblentz
> Sent: 21 February 2015 18:15
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: EAI TR-20 on E-Bay (Not Mine)
> 
> 
> > He's in for a shock when he ships it.  I shipped one from PA to ME a
> > couple of years ago, and the cost was in excess of $150.
> 
> Seller updated the ad:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EAI-Pace-TR-20-Analog-Vintage-Computer-
> /181672901097

That's looking more reasonable. Its showing $142 to ship to Slat Lake
City...

Dave


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Feb 21 12:33:21 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 18:33:21 -0000
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <54E299EF.7010906@9track.net>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>,
 <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com> <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
 <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com> <54E299EF.7010906@9track.net>
Message-ID: <01b201d04e04$def37fc0$9cda7f40$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Matt
Burke
> Sent: 17 February 2015 01:31
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
> 
> On 16/02/2015 20:38, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> > What other tests would you suggest? I do have a capacitance meter to
> > check values. I would have desolder them of course. Would you test
> > just the electrolytics or all of them? I don't have an insulation
> > tester though. Any other tests?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Rob
> >
> 
> Check the leakage current using a bench supply (same setup as reforming)
> - particularly C321. Leakage here may be causing a DC offset to be applied
to
> the vertical yoke. If you have no luck here then have a look at the
schematics
> for the Elston/Digital monitor board in MP00633 or similar. Expected
> waveforms are given for some points in the circuit.
> Using a scope you may be able to work out where the wobble is coming from.
> 
> Matt

I have been desoldering and checking all the electrolytics. I have set each
one up on my bench PSU with the current limiter set, and taking them up to
their rated voltage, or as near as I could because some are rated 50V and my
bench PSU only reaches 30V. None of them seemed to show any leakage, but my
bench PSU will not display currents below 10mA, I am not sure if that is
enough to show leakage that matters. I also tested their capacitance values,
a few are well above nominal value, but within the tolerance shown on the
printset. The worst one is +41% when the range is +50-10%.

I started checking some of the tantalum capacitors. They all looked fine,
but I don't know what a sensible ESR value is for these. One of them (C315)
is rated 1uF 35V and has an ESR of 3.4. Is that high for a tantalum?

One respondent asked for a picture, the printset is here,
http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,5422 and the relevant drawing is on
page 58.

Regards

Rob


From js at cimmeri.com  Sat Feb 21 12:42:42 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 13:42:42 -0500
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <01b201d04e04$def37fc0$9cda7f40$@ntlworld.com>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>,
 <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com> <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
 <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com> <54E299EF.7010906@9track.net>
 <01b201d04e04$def37fc0$9cda7f40$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <54E8D1A2.8080007@cimmeri.com>



On 2/21/2015 1:33 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> I have been desoldering and checking 
> all the electrolytics. I have set each 
> one up on my bench PSU with the 
> current limiter set, and taking them 
> up to their rated voltage, or as near 
> as I could because some are rated 50V 
> and my bench PSU only reaches 30V.

Then you need a better bench PSU or a 
dual supply that allows you to gang them 
in series (like mine does, 2x30 -> 60V).


> None of them seemed to show any 
> leakage, but my bench PSU will not 
> display currents below 10mA

That's not good enough either.  10Ma 
would be far too much leakage.


> I am not sure if that is enough to 
> show leakage that matters. I also 
> tested their capacitance values, a few 
> are well above nominal value, but 
> within the tolerance shown on the 
> printset. The worst one is +41% when 
> the range is +50-10%.

Why do you consider +41% to be "worst"?  
Sounds better to me.


> I started checking some of the 
> tantalum capacitors. They all looked 
> fine, but I don't know what a sensible 
> ESR value is for these. One of them 
> (C315) is rated 1uF 35V and has an ESR 
> of 3.4. Is that high for a tantalum? 
> One respondent asked for a picture, 
> the printset is here, 
> http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,5422 
> and the relevant drawing is on page 58.

That was me.  Do you have a photo of the 
actual board you're working on?

As far as the non-electrolytics, mainly 
start by just making sure none of them 
are shorted or open.

- J.

From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Sat Feb 21 12:49:26 2015
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 10:49:26 -0800
Subject: EAI TR-20 on E-Bay (Not Mine)
Message-ID: <20150221104926.385aaef2@asrock.bcwi.net>

On Sat, 21 Feb 2015 13:14:40 -0500
Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> wrote:

>   
> > He's in for a shock when he ships it.  I shipped one from PA to ME
> > a couple of years ago, and the cost was in excess of $150.   
> 
> Seller updated the ad:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EAI-Pace-TR-20-Analog-Vintage-Computer-/181672901097
>   

I contacted the seller - and told him his shipping price was likely
wrong. He thanked me and updated the price to something more
appropriate - like $150 here to the West Coast.

Lyle

-- 
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat Feb 21 12:59:09 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 18:59:09 -0000
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <54E8D1A2.8080007@cimmeri.com>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>,
 <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com> <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
 <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com> <54E299EF.7010906@9track.net>
 <01b201d04e04$def37fc0$9cda7f40$@ntlworld.com> <54E8D1A2.8080007@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <01b301d04e08$7930a380$6b91ea80$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> js at cimmeri.com
> Sent: 21 February 2015 18:43
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
> 
> 
> 
> On 2/21/2015 1:33 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> > I have been desoldering and checking
> > all the electrolytics. I have set each one up on my bench PSU with the
> > current limiter set, and taking them up to their rated voltage, or as
> > near as I could because some are rated 50V and my bench PSU only
> > reaches 30V.
> 
> Then you need a better bench PSU or a
> dual supply that allows you to gang them in series (like mine does, 2x30
->
> 60V).


Longer term I will have to get one, but for now that is all I have. I do
have a variac and a rectifier, so I could get it to 50V that way.


> 
> 
> > None of them seemed to show any
> > leakage, but my bench PSU will not
> > display currents below 10mA
> 
> That's not good enough either.  10Ma
> would be far too much leakage.

So what sort of value is reasonable for leakage?

> 
> 
> > I am not sure if that is enough to
> > show leakage that matters. I also
> > tested their capacitance values, a few
> > are well above nominal value, but
> > within the tolerance shown on the
> > printset. The worst one is +41% when
> > the range is +50-10%.
> 
> Why do you consider +41% to be "worst"?
> Sounds better to me.


By "worst" I mean the one that was furthest from its nominal value.


> 
> 
> > I started checking some of the
> > tantalum capacitors. They all looked
> > fine, but I don't know what a sensible
> > ESR value is for these. One of them
> > (C315) is rated 1uF 35V and has an ESR
> > of 3.4. Is that high for a tantalum?
> > One respondent asked for a picture,
> > the printset is here,
> > http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,5422
> > and the relevant drawing is on page 58.
> 
> That was me.  Do you have a photo of the
> actual board you're working on?

I have posted a picture of it here: http://1drv.ms/1Lo1hWB


> 
> As far as the non-electrolytics, mainly
> start by just making sure none of them
> are shorted or open.
> 
> - J.


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Feb 21 14:00:47 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 15:00:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150221085606.U93873@shell.lmi.net>
References: <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com> <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com> <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E835AB.40905@sydex.com> <20150221103858.GB3738@brevard.conman.org>
 <20150221085606.U93873@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <201502212000.PAA01478@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> And the minumum ranges are:
>> 	signed short	       -32,767 ..        32,767
>> 	signed int	       -32,767 ..        32,767
> 16 bit 2's complement goes from -32768 ... 32767
> does the ANSI standard leave off the -32768?

C99 does, at least according to the very late draft I have (this
textification loses supserscripting; the "215" is 2^15, etc):

       5.2.4.2.1  Sizes of integer types <limits.h>
...
                    Their implementation-defined  values  shall  be
       equal  or  greater  in  magnitude  (absolute value) to those
       shown, with the same sign.
...
         -- minimum value for an object of type short int
            SHRT_MIN                    -32767 // -(215-1)
...
         -- minimum value for an object of type int
            INT_MIN                     -32767 // -(215-1)
...
         -- minimum value for an object of type long int
            LONG_MIN               -2147483647 // -(231-1)
...
         -- minimum value for an object of type long long int
            LLONG_MIN     -9223372036854775807 // -(263-1)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
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From radioengr at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 14:15:03 2015
From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 13:15:03 -0700
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150221085606.U93873@shell.lmi.net>
References: <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com> <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com> <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E835AB.40905@sydex.com> <20150221103858.GB3738@brevard.conman.org>
 <20150221085606.U93873@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <54E8E747.5060105@gmail.com>

On 2/21/2015 10:07 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> Keep in mind, that K&R C is a C, not just "C like", without many of the
> restrictions of ANSI C.
>
> I actually agree with most of the ANSI CHANGES to C.
> BUT, K&R C IS C, not "C like", in spite of not being "ANSI C"
>
>
> On Sat, 21 Feb 2015, Sean Conner wrote:
>>>> 6-, 7-, and 8-bit character types as well as 18-bit and 36-bit
>>>> integers would be useful, but by definition it wouldn't actually be C.
>
> Some minor NITS:
>
>>    The constraints are:
>> 	sizeof(short) <= sizeof(int)
>> 	sizeof(int)   <= sizeof(long)
>> 	sizeof(short) <  sizeof(long)
>
> IIRC, K&R permitted sizeof(short) <= sizeof(long)
>
> You COULD build a C with 32 bits for every type.

The compilers for some of the Texas Instruments DSP devices are like that.

TMS320C33 (and variants), for example.

In my application, raw speed was very important and there wasn't a lot
of 8-bit data.

Bob.


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Feb 21 14:26:56 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 15:26:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E8C5B8.4090806@sydex.com>
References: <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com> <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com> <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E835AB.40905@sydex.com> <20150221103858.GB3738@brevard.conman.org>
 <54E8C5B8.4090806@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201502212026.PAA21338@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Consider a machine with a word length of 64 bits.  This machine
> represents floating point numbers with a 16 bit exponent and a 48 bit
> mantissa (nothing unusual so far).

Okay.

> So we have the length of short = int = long = 64 bits.  So far so
> good.

Well, we _can_ have short/int/long all having 64 bits.  Even char, too,
I think.

> However, given such a generous word length, the designers of this
> machine decide not to dedicate special hardware toward handling 64
> bit integers, but have said that 48 bits should be long enough for
> anyone, and so treat integer arithmetic as a subset of floating point
> (straightforward enough).   So not all values of a 64 bit word
> reflect valid integers--the exponent must be a certain
> value--anything else is floating point.

Well, this makes it impossible to implement long long, which (loosely
put) must have at least 64 bits of range.  But let's pretend that long
long doesn't exist, or perhaps that all the bit counts you give are
doubled, or some such.

> Now, here's where we get into sticky territory.  Since C draws no
> data type distinctions between bitwise logical operations on ints and
> arithmetic operations, is it possible to implement C on this machine?

I'm not sure.  The C99 draft I have says (6.2.6.1)

       [#5] Certain object representations  need  not  represent  a
       value  of the object type.  If the stored value of an object
       has  such  a  representation  and  is  read  by  an   lvalue
       expression  that  does not have character type, the behavior
       is undefined.  If such a representation  is  produced  by  a
       side  effect  that modifies all or any part of the object by
       an lvalue expression that does not have character type,  the
       behavior is undefined.41)  Such a representation is called a
       trap representation.

Footnote 41 says

       41)Thus,  an automatic variable can be initialized to a trap
          representation without causing  undefined  behavior,  but
          the  value  of the variable cannot be used until a proper
          value is stored in it.

The boolean operations on unsigned integer types would have to be
implemented in a way that's careful to avoid messing up the magic
exponent-field value (they couldn't just be 64-bit boolean operations,
in general).

The wording about "character type" above appears to be intended to
support idioms like

	for (i=0;i<sizeof(thing);i++)
                ((char *)&thing2)[i] = ((char *)&thing1)[i];

However, there are constraints on how integers are represented,
specifically on how signed and unsigned integers are related, that
might break the above.  6.2.6.2 (remember the missing supserscripting):

       [#1] For unsigned integer types other  than  unsigned  char,
       the  bits of the object representation shall be divided into
       two groups: value bits and padding bits (there need  not  be
       any  of  the  latter).   If there are N value bits, each bit
       shall represent a different power of 2 between 1  and  2N-1,
       so   that   objects   of  that  type  shall  be  capable  of
       representing values from 0  to  2N-1  using  a  pure  binary
       representation;   this   shall   be   known   as  the  value
       representation.   The  values  of  any  padding   bits   are
       unspecified.44)

       44)Some  combinations  of  padding  bits might generate trap
          representations, for example, if one  padding  bit  is  a
          parity bit.  Regardless, no arithmetic operation on valid
          values can generate a trap representation other  than  as
          part of an exceptional condition such as an overflow, and
          this  cannot  occur  with  unsigned  types.   All   other
          combinations  of  padding  bits  are  alternative  object
          representations of the value specified by the value bits.

       [#2]  For  signed  integer  types,  the  bits  of the object
       representation shall be divided  into  three  groups:  value
       bits, padding bits, and the sign bit.  There need not be any
       padding bits; there shall be exactly one sign bit.  Each bit
       that  is  a  value bit shall have the same value as the same
       bit  in  the  object  representation  of  the  corresponding
       unsigned  type (if there are M value bits in the signed type
       and N in the unsigned type, then M<=N).  If the sign bit  is
       zero,  it shall not affect the resulting value.  If the sign
       bit is one, the value  shall  be  modified  in  one  of  the
       following ways:

         -- the  corresponding  value  with  sign  bit 0 is negated
            (sign and magnitude);

         -- the sign bit has the value -(2N) (two's complement);

         -- the sign bit has the value -(2N-1) (one's complement).

       Which of these  applies  is  implementation-defined,  as  is
       whether  the  value  with sign bit 1 and all value bits zero
       (for the first two), or with sign bit and all value  bits  1
       (for one's complement), is a trap representation or a normal
       value.   In  the  case  of  sign  and  magnitude  and  one's
       complement,  if  this representation is a normal value it is
       called a negative zero.
...
       [#5]  The  values  of any padding bits are unspecified.45) A
       valid (non-trap) object representation of a  signed  integer
       type   where  the  sign  bit  is  zero  is  a  valid  object
       representation of the corresponding unsigned type, and shall
       represent the same value.

       45)[...basically a repeat of footnote 44, above...]

I think this permits what you sketch, but your sketch is brief enough
I'm not entirely sure.  It's also possible I've missed a constraint
somewhere else that's relevant.

I'll ask my go-to C guy about this.

> As far as "bytes" on systems, perhaps the attribute of byte
> addressability makes sense on short word-length machines, but I don't
> believe that it's necessary for longer word length machines.  [...]
> I think byte addressing is more a matter of functional fixedness more
> than anything else.

FSVO "byte", I agree.  However, since we've been discussing C, there's
a _lot_ of (C) code that assumes that char * has the same size and
representation as other pointer types, even though there's no
justification in the C spec for such an assumption.  (POSIX, on the
other hand, may impose such a restriction; I don't have even a draft of
POSIX handy to check.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
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From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 15:06:03 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 22:06:03 +0100
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502191212060.15576@deltasoft.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimm_FzJFVDjhvXMmz8gKdBL8ZrrC+thhO9AheYnBxJvhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1AAF909B-20CB-47B4-A1BC-385BE9BB753B@gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150217141607.D32254@shell.lmi.net>
 <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <CAFrGgTST_NS_zK7iQ87iaZBxWrdL1EOTF_d+SMDZRKz3q55C=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502191212060.15576@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEnZy6eJw+Q8u5SAt1wrSv=YmXXOhwmFR4igr=Z8VrqvA@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 February 2015 at 21:13, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>>> Object Pascal hit with the 5.5 release of Turbo Pascal
>>
>>
>> That was Apple tweaking the language.
>
>
> I don't recall Apple ever having been involved with Borland.


Me either.

A rather laboured joke about the relationship between C, C++ and Objective C?

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Feb 21 15:37:35 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 16:37:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com> <54 E792B8.1040003
 @sydex.com> <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net> <54E7BC52.4080900
 @sydex.com> <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
 <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201502212137.QAA10771@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> In C, does an int have to be an exact number of chars long?

Yes and no.  It has to be made up of an integral number of chars in the
sense that sizeof(int) must be an integer.  But those bits do not have
to all be value bits; some can be padding bits.  Five seven-bit chars
plus one extra bit in a 36-bit word won't fly (and not just because of
the minimum information content of a char).

Of course, C being what it is, you might be better off scrapping formal
conformance to the spec and building a not-quite-C language that's more
useful on that hardware.

> But, for that matter, how do you handle byte operations if they're
> not 6 bit/12 bit on a CDC 6600 in c?  (60 bit words).

60-bit words?  I'd be inclined to use 10-bit, or perhaps 12-bit, chars.
Whether it's reasonable to call those `bytes' depends on whether you
buy into the modern "`byte' means `octet'" interpretation.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From sales at elecplus.com  Sat Feb 21 15:44:51 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 15:44:51 -0600
Subject: Sun Type 3 and 4 keyboards and Mice
Message-ID: <011801d04e1f$9fe67e20$dfb37a60$@com>

Someone asked for these a few days ago.  Found several in the attic.  Type
3, 2 boards, 1 missing a couple of caps, 1 mouse.  Type 4, I think there are
2 complete keyboards.

Who wanted them?

 

Cindy Croxton

 


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 21 16:49:17 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 14:49:17 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <201502212026.PAA21338@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com> <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com> <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E835AB.40905@sydex.com> <20150221103858.GB3738@brevard.conman.org>
 <54E8C5B8.4090806@sydex.com>
 <201502212026.PAA21338@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <54E90B6D.4030908@sydex.com>

On 02/21/2015 12:26 PM, Mouse wrote:

> Well, this makes it impossible to implement long long, which (loosely
> put) must have at least 64 bits of range.  But let's pretend that long
> long doesn't exist, or perhaps that all the bit counts you give are
> doubled, or some such.

I think a double-precision type could be shoehorned if we decided to 
describe as our subset of floating point terms--96 bits of precision in 
two 64 bit words, with the exponent field of the more significant being 
48 larger than the least significant--and both being unnormalized. 
Basically 96 bits of integer spread across 128 bits.

Consider this one--in the arrangement described, there's no particular 
reason that the exponent (protected padding bits if you will) need to be 
in the most significant bit position in a word.  You could exchange the 
positions of the exponent and significand or even scatter the 
exponent/padding bits among the significand bits.

How do bit logical operations (especially shift) operate then?

> FSVO "byte", I agree.  However, since we've been discussing C, there's
> a _lot_ of (C) code that assumes that char * has the same size and
> representation as other pointer types, even though there's no
> justification in the C spec for such an assumption.  (POSIX, on the
> other hand, may impose such a restriction; I don't have even a draft of
> POSIX handy to check.)

One thing that I've never understood was the lack of a bit type in C 
(not the struct bit length specification), but something encountered on 
bit-addressed architectures.  That is, a bit array starting and ending 
at arbitrary addresses, complete with a pointer that can be dereferenced 
to select a specific bit.  Vector machines certainly use this capability 
and C seems to be totally oblivious to it (c.f. sparse and control vectors).

The biggest problem of C to me is the existing code base that makes all 
sorts of assumptions about data type and structures.  Because this is 
The Way Things Are, it becomes more difficult to propose alternative 
architectures that might be more efficient.  Witness the "nUxi" problem 
that plagued early ports of That Operating System.

I recall the moan from one of my project members when confronted with 
automatic optimization of C.  "A *&^%$ pointer can refer to ANYTHING!"

Ah well, time for me to get back to coding for my ternary-based machine 
that uses Murray code as its character set.

--Chuck



From isking at uw.edu  Sat Feb 21 17:10:49 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 15:10:49 -0800
Subject: Sun Type 3 and 4 keyboards and Mice
In-Reply-To: <011801d04e1f$9fe67e20$dfb37a60$@com>
References: <011801d04e1f$9fe67e20$dfb37a60$@com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ00EbhXq-Rf8OZe+pYEPGgy=KQ=DW79cSQCWyGpg+ciM5w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Cindy,

I wouldn't mind having another Compact Type 1, if you happen to find one.
I have a complete and running SparcStation Voyager (nylon 'suitcase', dead
SLA battery and all), plus probably enough parts to put together another
one except for the keyboard.  -- Ian

On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 1:44 PM, Electronics Plus <sales at elecplus.com>
wrote:

> Someone asked for these a few days ago.  Found several in the attic.  Type
> 3, 2 boards, 1 missing a couple of caps, 1 mouse.  Type 4, I think there
> are
> 2 complete keyboards.
>
> Who wanted them?
>
>
>
> Cindy Croxton
>
>
>
>


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Feb 21 17:22:55 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 15:22:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E90B6D.4030908@sydex.com>
References: <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com> <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com> <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E835AB.40905@sydex.com> <20150221103858.GB3738@brevard.conman.org>
 <54E8C5B8.4090806@sydex.com>
 <201502212026.PAA21338@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <54E90B6D.4030908@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150221151859.L94967@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 21 Feb 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Ah well, time for me to get back to coding for my ternary-based machine
> that uses Murray code as its character set.

Will you include optional conversion for morse code for the console I/O?
(dot/dash/space)

ANSI C will be incompatible with it, but a K&R C might be possible.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 21 17:43:55 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 15:43:55 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150221151859.L94967@shell.lmi.net>
References: <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com> <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com> <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E835AB.40905@sydex.com> <20150221103858.GB3738@brevard.conman.org>
 <54E8C5B8.4090806@sydex.com>
 <201502212026.PAA21338@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <54E90B6D.4030908@sydex.com> <20150221151859.L94967@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <54E9183B.7090304@sydex.com>

On 02/21/2015 03:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Feb 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> Ah well, time for me to get back to coding for my ternary-based machine
>> that uses Murray code as its character set.
>
> Will you include optional conversion for morse code for the console I/O?
> (dot/dash/space)
>
> ANSI C will be incompatible with it, but a K&R C might be possible.

Well, that's an idea, but *American Morse* telegrapher's code from the 
19th century.  You know, where "O" was dit-pause-dit and "L" was 
long-dah, etc.

That should confuse just about everybody.

--Chuck


From jdbryan at acm.org  Fri Feb 20 12:25:53 2015
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 13:25:53 -0500
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLLBk+nYk16BVfXnmhGEWhHDN_FcuWNywB1NH6dw9pyLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>,
 <DUB113-W1281B1DAB18768E6004EF50CB2D0@phx.gbl>,
 <CAM2UOwLLBk+nYk16BVfXnmhGEWhHDN_FcuWNywB1NH6dw9pyLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1YOsGv-0004Qw-8Y@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 9:09, Glen Slick wrote:

> If you did find one of those then you could use the HPDrive software
> on a PC with a GPIB interface to emulate a CS/80 drive.
> http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/

Johannes: you could also use HPDrive to emulate a 7970 9-track tape drive 
or 9144A cartridge tape drive, so you wouldn't need to write your own 
emulator.  Your CS/80 boot ROM should be able to read the first block of 
the 9144A tape image into memory, although the code read in must be 
arranged in a certain way.  Let me know if you want the details.

                                      -- Dave


From aperry at snowmoose.com  Fri Feb 20 12:27:06 2015
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 10:27:06 -0800
Subject: Burroughs machines
In-Reply-To: <20150219195300.GA29787@lonesome.com>
References: <6739ff76$69004098$37e0c67c$@buzz1.com>
 <20150219195300.GA29787@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <54E77C7A.5070603@snowmoose.com>

On 2/19/15 11:53 AM, Mark Linimon wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 01:58:53PM -0500, B Degnan wrote:
>> "...I have a 1970s Burroughs B 80 which was one of the first office based
>> with stand alone multi disc cabinet & printer, any interest ..."
> Nice looking little machine.
>
> Speaking of Burroughs ... did any B5500s survive to the present day?
>
FWIW I am still looking for a B1965 ...

alan


From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Fri Feb 20 13:51:55 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 19:51:55 +0000
Subject: Burroughs machines
In-Reply-To: <20150220114137.GA400@lonesome.com>
References: <6739ff76$69004098$37e0c67c$@buzz1.com>
 <20150219195300.GA29787@lonesome.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DA301A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150220114137.GA400@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DA3911@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Mark Linimon
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 3:42 AM

> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 11:24:55PM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote:

>> You are [REDACTED] and I claim my ?5.

> sorry, have only been on the list for 3-4 months.

No, my fault.  The "we" in "We get this question" is the staff at
Living Computer Museum.

                                                                Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From david4602 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 20 16:47:16 2015
From: david4602 at gmail.com (David Schmidt)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 17:47:16 -0500
Subject: 8-inch floppy mailers
In-Reply-To: <54E79344.3030709@sydex.com>
References: <CAM4zSsU4tzt+2WBnq=7cjT8p1PfKXE0M7_NySZJnMdKiU3G5Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E79344.3030709@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAG=HHpXNtqwHHOKhQdyhi3jYo2GWs=8tgQDNXOSFpmSbKse0FA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 02/20/2015 11:30 AM, shadoooo wrote:
>
>> hello,
>> not in the original list, but I could be interested... where are you?
>> thanks
>> Andrea
>>
>
> Forgive me for hijacking the thread, but I've been unsuccessful in giving
> away hundreds of 6x9 and 6x6 5.25" floppy mailers.  I'm in Oregon, USA if
> anyone wants them.
>

Hi, Chuck -

I'd like them.  Send me a bill.

- David

From johannesthelen at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 21 05:56:51 2015
From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 13:56:51 +0200
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <E1YOsGv-0004Qw-8Y@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>, ,
 <DUB113-W1281B1DAB18768E6004EF50CB2D0@phx.gbl>, ,
 <CAM2UOwLLBk+nYk16BVfXnmhGEWhHDN_FcuWNywB1NH6dw9pyLw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <E1YOsGv-0004Qw-8Y@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DUB113-W1097E8A873DEFB045FB683DCB2B0@phx.gbl>


Mystery have solved!

I traced down receive & transmit pins from RJ45 and scoped little bit. I found one pin bursting 9600baud data couple seconds intervals and I connected this to terminal. Here's result at start up:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DR111cK6W-LTZqeWt2QzlRRU0/view?usp=sharing

*************************************************'
SCSI INTERFACE FOR HP-1000.  GRUMMAN 1995.
   Module: START; Version: 5.60
Test Group 1: EPROM CHECKSUM TEST - PASSED
Test Group 2: GLUE LOGIC TEST - Test #5 - PASSED
Test Group 3: RAM ADDRESSING TEST - Test #5 - PASSED
Test Group 4: SCSI CONTROLLER TEST - Test #8 - PASSED
Test Group 5: RAM DATA RETENTION TEST - Test #2 - PASSED

Test Group 6: WINCHESTER (FIXED) DISK TEST

 Device init routine - ** FAILED **

 NCR register: 21 Expected data: 01 Actual data: 00

*************************************************************
So Grumman made this board. Chip dates was right, very late design for this old computer. Pretty cool!

****************************************************

> > If you did find one of those then you could use the HPDrive software
> > on a PC with a GPIB interface to emulate a CS/80 drive.
> > http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/
> 
>> That is CS/80, not C580. You would need to find an 12821A HP-IB>>Interface to use that.>>http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=486>>If you did find one of those then you could use the HPDrive software>>on a PC with a GPIB interface to emulate a CS/80 drive.>>http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/

Thanks for tips! I have lost couple hours those sites before. I probably make some own high speed downloader boot ROM / hardware / PC soft just for fun, but I have to test those too.

This is topic of its own, but do anyone know any 21MX assembler and microassembler for DOS/Windows? Or have I make one..? I have little (demoscene) project going on for this 21MX. Same project includes IBM 1800, hopefully... Later more this totally insane project, but I guarantee no old computer is harmed on that performance ;D

Thank you all!


- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/



> From: jdbryan at acm.org
> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 13:25:53 -0500
> Subject: Re: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
> 
> On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 9:09, Glen Slick wrote:
> 
> > If you did find one of those then you could use the HPDrive software
> > on a PC with a GPIB interface to emulate a CS/80 drive.
> > http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/
> 
> Johannes: you could also use HPDrive to emulate a 7970 9-track tape drive 
> or 9144A cartridge tape drive, so you wouldn't need to write your own 
> emulator.  Your CS/80 boot ROM should be able to read the first block of 
> the 9144A tape image into memory, although the code read in must be 
> arranged in a certain way.  Let me know if you want the details.
> 
>                                       -- Dave
> 
 		 	   		  

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sat Feb 21 06:11:33 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 06:11:33 -0600
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <DUB113-W1097E8A873DEFB045FB683DCB2B0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>, ,
 <DUB113-W1281B1DAB18768E6004EF50CB2D0@phx.gbl>, ,
 <CAM2UOwLLBk+nYk16BVfXnmhGEWhHDN_FcuWNywB1NH6dw9pyLw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <E1YOsGv-0004Qw-8Y@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <DUB113-W1097E8A873DEFB045FB683DCB2B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <009201d04dcf$88d517a0$9a7f46e0$@classiccmp.org>

SCSI card for 21MX. Yep, my mind is blown. I would have never thought such a
thing could exist, and it's not my first rodeo. Wild.

Yep, there are 21MX assemblers for unix, I am aware of at least two. Neither
supports REL format but ABS works fine. One is perl, one is C, would be easy
to port to dos. I have been using the native ones on 21MX gear though.

I am not aware of a microassembler other than the native one.

J



From imp at bsdimp.com  Sat Feb 21 07:53:35 2015
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 05:53:35 -0800
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <DUB113-W1097E8A873DEFB045FB683DCB2B0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl> <, > <,
 > <DUB113-W1281B1DAB18768E6004EF50CB2D0@phx.gbl> <, > <,
 > <CAM2UOwLLBk+nYk16BVfXnmhGEWhHDN_FcuWNywB1NH6dw9pyLw@mail.gmail.com> <,
 > <E1YOsGv-0004Qw-8Y@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <DUB113-W1097E8A873DEFB045FB683DCB2B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <786F5996-3300-44A3-9358-69C1BAAE2185@bsdimp.com>


> On Feb 21, 2015, at 3:56 AM, Johannes Thelen <johannesthelen at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Mystery have solved!
> 
> I traced down receive & transmit pins from RJ45 and scoped little bit. I found one pin bursting 9600baud data couple seconds intervals and I connected this to terminal. Here's result at start up:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DR111cK6W-LTZqeWt2QzlRRU0/view?usp=sharing
> 
> *************************************************'
> SCSI INTERFACE FOR HP-1000.  GRUMMAN 1995.
>   Module: START; Version: 5.60
> Test Group 1: EPROM CHECKSUM TEST - PASSED
> Test Group 2: GLUE LOGIC TEST - Test #5 - PASSED
> Test Group 3: RAM ADDRESSING TEST - Test #5 - PASSED
> Test Group 4: SCSI CONTROLLER TEST - Test #8 - PASSED
> Test Group 5: RAM DATA RETENTION TEST - Test #2 - PASSED
> 
> Test Group 6: WINCHESTER (FIXED) DISK TEST
> 
> Device init routine - ** FAILED **
> 
> NCR register: 21 Expected data: 01 Actual data: 00
> 
> *************************************************************
> So Grumman made this board. Chip dates was right, very late design for this old computer. Pretty cool!

For years Grumman made it its business to buy up older computer lines that
had some small amount of life in them and support them for as long as it could
extract support contract payment out of the users. Without doing any development
work at all, with only very limited bug fixes (at least that?s my experience with
Solbourne). The timeframe is about right.

Warner

> ****************************************************
> 
>>> If you did find one of those then you could use the HPDrive software
>>> on a PC with a GPIB interface to emulate a CS/80 drive.
>>> http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/
>> 
>>> That is CS/80, not C580. You would need to find an 12821A HP-IB>>Interface to use that.>>http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=486>>If you did find one of those then you could use the HPDrive software>>on a PC with a GPIB interface to emulate a CS/80 drive.>>http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/
> 
> Thanks for tips! I have lost couple hours those sites before. I probably make some own high speed downloader boot ROM / hardware / PC soft just for fun, but I have to test those too.
> 
> This is topic of its own, but do anyone know any 21MX assembler and microassembler for DOS/Windows? Or have I make one..? I have little (demoscene) project going on for this 21MX. Same project includes IBM 1800, hopefully... Later more this totally insane project, but I guarantee no old computer is harmed on that performance ;D
> 
> Thank you all!
> 
> 
> - Johannes ThelenFinland
> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
> 
> 
> 
>> From: jdbryan at acm.org
>> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
>> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 13:25:53 -0500
>> Subject: Re: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
>> 
>> On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 9:09, Glen Slick wrote:
>> 
>>> If you did find one of those then you could use the HPDrive software
>>> on a PC with a GPIB interface to emulate a CS/80 drive.
>>> http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/
>> 
>> Johannes: you could also use HPDrive to emulate a 7970 9-track tape drive 
>> or 9144A cartridge tape drive, so you wouldn't need to write your own 
>> emulator.  Your CS/80 boot ROM should be able to read the first block of 
>> the 9144A tape image into memory, although the code read in must be 
>> arranged in a certain way.  Let me know if you want the details.
>> 
>>                                      -- Dave
>> 
> 		 	   		  


From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Sat Feb 21 12:44:23 2015
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 10:44:23 -0800
Subject: EAI TR-20 on E-Bay (Not Mine)
In-Reply-To: <54E8CB10.30407@snarc.net>
References: <005501d04dec$d3526f40$79f74dc0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502211201550.65462@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <54E8CB10.30407@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <20150221104423.593ae5c4@asrock.bcwi.net>

On Sat, 21 Feb 2015 13:14:40 -0500
Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> wrote:

> 
> > He's in for a shock when he ships it.  I shipped one from PA to ME
> > a couple of years ago, and the cost was in excess of $150. 
> 
> Seller updated the ad:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EAI-Pace-TR-20-Analog-Vintage-Computer-/181672901097
> 

I contacted the seller - and told him his shipping price was likely
wrong. He thanked me and updated the price to something more
appropriate - like $150 here to the West Coast.

Lyle
-- 
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From jdbryan at acm.org  Sat Feb 21 14:51:12 2015
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 15:51:12 -0500
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <DUB113-W1097E8A873DEFB045FB683DCB2B0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>,
 <E1YOsGv-0004Qw-8Y@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <DUB113-W1097E8A873DEFB045FB683DCB2B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E1YPH15-0001ag-If@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 13:56, Johannes Thelen wrote:

> This is topic of its own, but do anyone know any 21MX assembler and
> microassembler for DOS/Windows? Or have I make one..? 

The RTE operating system package available here:

  http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=565

...will run under SIMH on a Windows system.  The (native) assembler is
preloaded on this system.

The (native) microassembler add-on package is available here:

http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection/products/92061-
13502_Rev-2013.zip

It can be loaded and run on the above system.  The assembler and
microprogramming manuals are available on Bitsavers as well.

                                      -- Dave


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Sat Feb 21 16:09:46 2015
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 14:09:46 -0800
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <E1YPH15-0001ag-If@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>,
 <E1YOsGv-0004Qw-8Y@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <DUB113-W1097E8A873DEFB045FB683DCB2B0@phx.gbl>
 <E1YPH15-0001ag-If@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <54E9022A.5010303@jwsss.com>


On 2/21/2015 12:51 PM, J. David Bryan wrote:
> On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 13:56, Johannes Thelen wrote:
>
>> This is topic of its own, but do anyone know any 21MX assembler and
>> microassembler for DOS/Windows? Or have I make one..?
> The RTE operating system package available here:
>
>    http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=565
>
> ...will run under SIMH on a Windows system.  The (native) assembler is
> preloaded on this system.
>
> The (native) microassembler add-on package is available here:
>
> http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection/products/92061-
> 13502_Rev-2013.zip
>
> It can be loaded and run on the above system.  The assembler and
> microprogramming manuals are available on Bitsavers as well.
>
>                                        -- Dave
>
>
Does anyone have a source for the qcterm, which is suggested as a 
terminal emulator?  The AICS Research site seems to be owned by a tax 
prep firm now, and all of the links I found point to the dead spot.

There is something called "Software Informer" which has a version 3.1, 
but I don't trust anything anymore not to load up a system with 
bloatware or malware, no matter who they are.

Thanks to the HP museum for the OS download and manuals, by the way.
Thanks
Jim


From blstuart at bellsouth.net  Sat Feb 21 21:33:48 2015
From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 19:33:48 -0800
Subject: PDP-8/M restoration project
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuNe-t8d53m+c_tsBb9+3NuuT_OZpBt-OB=v75jzAn3Wnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1424576028.11638.YahooMailBasic@web184703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Paul,
I can't believe it's been so long since you wrote to me.  I
apologize for not getting back with you sooner.  It looks
like I'll just need 2 of the H851s for the M8300 and M8310
cards.  The other thing I especially need is an M8320
Bus Load Card.

Beyond those, I've got a line on an M8650 async card,
but I'm thinking I may want two before it's over with.  So
if you've got one for a good price I might be interested
in it too.  At the moment at least, I'm planning to either
get one of Vince's memory cards or to build something
similar.

Thanks
BLS

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 12/29/14, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: PDP-8/M restoration project
 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
 Date: Monday, December 29, 2014, 1:10 AM
 
 Hi Brian,
 
 How many of the H851s do you need? Where are you located?
 
 Can you call me some afternoon or night this week??
 till 11PM Chicago time
 is fine.
 
 Thanks, Paul
 217-586-5331
 
 On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Brian L. Stuart <blstuart at bellsouth.net>
 wrote:
 
 > For any of you who are on more than one of these lists,
 I apologize
 > in advance for your getting multiple copies of this.
 >
 > Now that I'm moved into the new place and the man cave
 (my basement)
 > is converging on a usable state and in recognition of
 the upcoming 50th
 > anniversary of the introduction of the PDP-8, I'm about
 to embark on a
 > project to restore a PDP-8/M I got a while back.?
 Unfortunately, this one
 > is somewhat incomplete..? So I'm looking to start
 collecting some of the
 > bits I'll need before it's all said and done.? The
 items I need are in
 > descending
 > order of priority:
 >
 > KK8E M8320 Bus load module
 > KL8E M8650 Async module
 > H851 Inter-module jumper blocks for the CPU boards
 > Memory
 > Storage device and controller
 > Power switch key
 > One front panel switch paddle
 >
 > If you have any of those that you're looking to unload
 (especially
 > the M8320 or the M8650), let me know.
 >
 > Obviously, I can live without the switch paddle and I
 should be able to
 > get a new key cut, but if anyone has extras lying
 around, I promise to
 > give them a good home.? The truth is I don't
 expect to come up with
 > memory or storage devices for what I can justify
 spending.? However,
 > it turns out I do have an Omnibus prototype
 board.? So I'm planning
 > to use that to build a device to emulate a set of RK05s
 using an SD
 > card for storage, and if need be, I can put memory on
 there too.
 >
 > Thanks in advance,
 > BLS
 >
 >
 

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 22:25:30 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 21:25:30 -0700
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E8C5B8.4090806@sydex.com>
References: <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
 <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com>
 <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E835AB.40905@sydex.com>
 <20150221103858.GB3738@brevard.conman.org>
 <54E8C5B8.4090806@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRTjbLqwwD5SyNgoGGN4RVgAP9DrWnzT43aVDZ=ZBVmXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> Consider a machine with a word length of 64 bits.  This machine represents
> floating point numbers with a 16 bit exponent and a 48 bit mantissa (nothing
> unusual so far).
>
> So we have the length of short = int = long = 64 bits.  So far so good.
>
> However, given such a generous word length, the designers of this machine
> decide not to dedicate special hardware toward handling 64 bit integers, but
> have said that 48 bits should be long enough for anyone, and so treat
> integer arithmetic as a subset of floating point (straightforward enough).
> So not all values of a 64 bit word reflect valid integers--the exponent must
> be a certain value--anything else is floating point.
>
> Now, here's where we get into sticky territory.  Since C draws no data type
> distinctions between bitwise logical operations on ints and arithmetic
> operations, is it possible to implement C on this machine?

Having short, int, and long types that occupy 64 bits of storage but
only effectively have 48 bits of integer value is perfectly fine, but
it does have some consequences that must be considered.

On all integer types other than unsigned char, the C standard allows
the representation of the type to contain padding bits, and the values
of the padding bits are unspecified (ISO/IEC 9899:1999 ?6.2.6.2 ?1).
The implementation is free to require that the padding bits have
certain values (for the exponent field in your example), and for
operands which don't have the required padding values to yield
unpredictable results (called "trap representations" (?6.2.6.2 ?5).
However, all operations with valid operand values (not trap
representations) have to generate valid values (not trap
representations) as output, so the shift and logical operations have
to be implemented in such a way that the padding bits of the result
are valid.  In other words, if the native machine "logical or"
instruction was just a logical or of all 64 bits, or it was a logical
or of the low 48 bits but did not handle the exponent correctly, it
wouldn't be sufficient by itself to implement the C logical or
operator.

The unsigned char type can't use a representation using padding bits;
all of its storage bits have to be value bits (?6.2.6.1 ?3). Signed
chars have to occupy the same amount of storage as a "plain" char
(?6.2.5 ?5), and unsigned integer types have to occupy the same amount
of storage as the corresponding signed integer types (?6.2.5 ?6).
These rules combined with the requirements on the ranges of
corresponding unsigned and signed integer types (?6.2.6.2 ?2) result
in it not being possible for a signed character to have any padding
bits either.

C types aren't required to correspond to types natively handled by the
instruction set, so this problem can be resolved (on a machine such as
your example) by defining an 8-bit or 16-bit character type, even
though some operations on those would be less efficient than on the
64-bit type natively supported.

From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 22:46:16 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 22:46:16 -0600
Subject: PDP-8/M restoration project
In-Reply-To: <1424576028.11638.YahooMailBasic@web184703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CACwhfuNe-t8d53m+c_tsBb9+3NuuT_OZpBt-OB=v75jzAn3Wnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1424576028.11638.YahooMailBasic@web184703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMEqt-nkCS4wC3-7w900pEzAi3xLoprqBMU9-jZE14KeQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Brian,

I've been very busy the last few weeks too.

I have the M8650s and the M8320s. I'll have to check on the M851s- I might
be getting low on them.

If you want to call me in the next hour of so, go for it. I,m booked most
of tomorrow and Monday.

Thanks, Paul
217 586 5361


On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Brian L. Stuart <blstuart at bellsouth.net>
wrote:

> Paul,
> I can't believe it's been so long since you wrote to me.  I
> apologize for not getting back with you sooner.  It looks
> like I'll just need 2 of the H851s for the M8300 and M8310
> cards.  The other thing I especially need is an M8320
> Bus Load Card.
>
> Beyond those, I've got a line on an M8650 async card,
> but I'm thinking I may want two before it's over with.  So
> if you've got one for a good price I might be interested
> in it too.  At the moment at least, I'm planning to either
> get one of Vince's memory cards or to build something
> similar.
>
> Thanks
> BLS
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 12/29/14, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Subject: Re: PDP-8/M restoration project
>  To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>  Date: Monday, December 29, 2014, 1:10 AM
>
>  Hi Brian,
>
>  How many of the H851s do you need? Where are you located?
>
>  Can you call me some afternoon or night this week?
>  till 11PM Chicago time
>  is fine.
>
>  Thanks, Paul
>  217-586-5331
>
>  On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Brian L. Stuart <blstuart at bellsouth.net>
>  wrote:
>
>  > For any of you who are on more than one of these lists,
>  I apologize
>  > in advance for your getting multiple copies of this.
>  >
>  > Now that I'm moved into the new place and the man cave
>  (my basement)
>  > is converging on a usable state and in recognition of
>  the upcoming 50th
>  > anniversary of the introduction of the PDP-8, I'm about
>  to embark on a
>  > project to restore a PDP-8/M I got a while back.
>  Unfortunately, this one
>  > is somewhat incomplete..  So I'm looking to start
>  collecting some of the
>  > bits I'll need before it's all said and done.  The
>  items I need are in
>  > descending
>  > order of priority:
>  >
>  > KK8E M8320 Bus load module
>  > KL8E M8650 Async module
>  > H851 Inter-module jumper blocks for the CPU boards
>  > Memory
>  > Storage device and controller
>  > Power switch key
>  > One front panel switch paddle
>  >
>  > If you have any of those that you're looking to unload
>  (especially
>  > the M8320 or the M8650), let me know.
>  >
>  > Obviously, I can live without the switch paddle and I
>  should be able to
>  > get a new key cut, but if anyone has extras lying
>  around, I promise to
>  > give them a good home.  The truth is I don't
>  expect to come up with
>  > memory or storage devices for what I can justify
>  spending.  However,
>  > it turns out I do have an Omnibus prototype
>  board.  So I'm planning
>  > to use that to build a device to emulate a set of RK05s
>  using an SD
>  > card for storage, and if need be, I can put memory on
>  there too.
>  >
>  > Thanks in advance,
>  > BLS
>  >
>  >
>
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 21 23:46:38 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 21:46:38 -0800
Subject: Z-letter collection
Message-ID: <54E96D3E.3030305@sydex.com>

Whilst digging through the detritus of the last 20+ years, I realized 
that I had copies of Dave McGlone's Z-Letter, issues 1-40 (which is 
pretty close, IIRC to the lot).

Does anyone scan and archive these things for public access?  If so, 
I'll gladly send them along for such treatment.

I've also got a dozen issues or so of the TCJ (The Computer Journal) 
from 1994-95.  Useful or recycle fodder?

--Chuck

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 21 23:49:00 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 21:49:00 -0800
Subject: Anyone remember Archie McPhee & Co?
Message-ID: <54E96DCC.2020604@sydex.com>

While digging through more old detritus, I came across an Archie-McPhee 
catalog and three still in shrinkwrap, "Computer Voodoo" soft 
sculptures.  Anyone know what the value of such stuff is?

--Chuck

From jason at textfiles.com  Sun Feb 22 01:33:22 2015
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 23:33:22 -0800
Subject: Anyone remember Archie McPhee & Co?
In-Reply-To: <54E96DCC.2020604@sydex.com>
References: <54E96DCC.2020604@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd3o2M5zL5y9=_d=tDawUPdQ--5svLXdiC+MHQQPraJo5g@mail.gmail.com>

A lot of people remember Archie McPhee because Archie McPhee is still very
much in business.

http://mcphee.com/shop/

On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> While digging through more old detritus, I came across an Archie-McPhee
> catalog and three still in shrinkwrap, "Computer Voodoo" soft sculptures.
> Anyone know what the value of such stuff is?
>
> --Chuck
>

From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Sun Feb 22 05:49:53 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 11:49:53 +0000
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E8C5B8.4090806@sydex.com>
References: <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com>
 <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com>
 <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E835AB.40905@sydex.com>
 <20150221103858.GB3738@brevard.conman.org>
 <54E8C5B8.4090806@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150222114953.GA18896@mooli.org.uk>

On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 09:51:52AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
[...]
> However, given such a generous word length, the designers of this machine
> decide not to dedicate special hardware toward handling 64 bit integers, but
> have said that 48 bits should be long enough for anyone, and so treat integer
> arithmetic as a subset of floating point (straightforward enough). So not all
> values of a 64 bit word reflect valid integers--the exponent must be a
> certain value--anything else is floating point.

Perhaps surprisingly, this model is actually used in several non-C languages on
real-world (virtual) machines, albeit with IEEE 754 double-precision
floating-point numbers (aka "binary64") which can actually exactly represent
all of the integers between -2^53 and +2^53. No, there's no off-by-one error on
those numbers: 2^53 is the first floating-point number where the exponent can
only represent multiples of two instead of all of the integers, but that's fine
because 2^53 *is* divisible by two.

> Now, here's where we get into sticky territory. Since C draws no data type
> distinctions between bitwise logical operations on ints and arithmetic
> operations, is it possible to implement C on this machine? It should be
> obvious that bitwise logical operations on a 64 bit int, whose upper 16 bits
> must conform to a special case of a float, that all logical operations on an
> int do not result in legal int values.

What you appear to be describing is taking the float64 value, treating the bits
as an int64_t, doing the bitwise operation, and then treating those bits as a
float64 again. That will indeed summon nasal demons on any machine and not just
your hypothetical one. Instead, it needs to do actual representation
conversions.

Section 6.2.6.2 ("Integer types") seems to throw a spanner in the works. It
describes an integer as containing N "value bits", each of which represent
values 1 through 2^(N-1), zero or more "padding bits" which may contain any
values the implementation desires, plus a sign bit for signed types. This is
*almost* compatible with IEEE 754 floating point in that the exponent can go
into the padding bits, but the value bits vary meaning depending on the
exponent. In this case, an alternative floating-point representation would
suffice, as would just ignoring that bit of the standard as being unreasonable
and making no practical difference.

This wording likewise torpedoes C on a non-binary machine, but again I'd just
ignore this imposition of a specific integer representation as ridiculous.
Binary operations would be rather tedious and have to be implemented in a slow
library call in much the same way as for floating-point on machines without
FPUs, but it's doable.


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sun Feb 22 07:32:16 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 08:32:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E90B6D.4030908@sydex.com>
References: <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com> <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com> <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E835AB.40905@sydex.com> <20150221103858.GB3738@brevard.conman.org>
 <54E8C5B8.4090806@sydex.com>
 <201502212026.PAA21338@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <54E90B6D.4030908@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201502221332.IAA03745@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Well, this makes it impossible to implement long long, which
>> (loosely put) must have at least 64 bits of range.
> I think a double-precision type could be shoehorned [...].  Basically
> 96 bits of integer spread across 128 bits.

Could work, just as today some C implementations do long long by gluing
together two 32-bit words.

> Consider this one--in the arrangement described, there's no
> particular reason that the exponent (protected padding bits if you
> will) need to be in the most significant bit position in a word.

Of course not.

> You could exchange the positions of the exponent and significand or
> even scatter the exponent/padding bits among the significand bits.

> How do bit logical operations (especially shift) operate then?

With difficulty.  Integer shift couldn't be just a shift operation
applied to the 64-bit representation; it would have to be more complex
than that.  But it could certainly be done.  If the padding is
scattered around sufficiently randomly it might be easiest to implement
shift operations as calls to a support function.

> One thing that I've never understood was the lack of a bit type in C

Given its genesis - the era and the original target - I kind-of do.

> [...] bit-addressed architectures [...]

Yes.  Not very C-friendly - or, to turn it around, C is not very
bit-addressable-hardware-friendly.

It certainly would be possible to design a C-ish language with support
for directly addressible bits.  I think it'd be an interesting
experiment.

> Vector machines certainly use this capability and C seems to be
> totally oblivious to it (c.f. sparse and control vectors).

C is oblivious to a lot of things - though its influence, mostly
through Unix and then POSIX, is strong enough that many of them aren't
noticed nowadays (and I think the world is the poorer for it).

> The biggest problem of C to me is the existing code base that makes
> all sorts of assumptions about data type and structures.  Because
> this is The Way Things Are, it becomes more difficult to propose
> alternative architectures that might be more efficient.

Yes.  I've felt that way about POSIX for some time now: that anything
that can't be fit into a POSIX framework semi-can't be done, producing
a positive feedback loop that only ensures the POSIX way becomes even
more entrenched.

I became very aware of this in 2002, when I was hired to take an
experimental encrypted distributed storage paradigm and make it
mountable as a filesystem on a Unixy system (NetBSD, specifically).
The impedance mismatch was severe, because the paradigm in question
couldn't really support a POSIXy write() directly - it had versioning
and a naive implementation would have created a new version of the file
on every write().  Since it didn't do delta compression (and really
couldn't, given the way it was encrypted), this would have meant that
small changes to large files would have flooded the system with similar
large files whose similarity could not be exploited to reduce storage
costs.  I ended up introducing a `freeze' operation, so that write()
affected only a not-yet-stored copy-in-progress, with it getting pushed
to the tree of versions only upon freezing.

> I recall the moan from one of my project members when confronted with
> automatic optimization of C.  "A *&^%$ pointer can refer to
> ANYTHING!"

Yes - though modern C has aliasing rules that make life significantly
easier for optimizing compilers (but correspondingly harder for
programmers used to the "pointers are just memory addresses" mental
model.

> Ah well, time for me to get back to coding for my ternary-based
> machine that uses Murray code as its character set.

:-)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From matt at 9track.net  Sun Feb 22 07:55:51 2015
From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 13:55:51 +0000
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <01b301d04e08$7930a380$6b91ea80$@ntlworld.com>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>,
 <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com> <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
 <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com> <54E299EF.7010906@9track.net>
 <01b201d04e04$def37fc0$9cda7f40$@ntlworld.com> <54E8D1A2.8080007@cimmeri.com>
 <01b301d04e08$7930a380$6b91ea80$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <54E9DFE7.5090409@9track.net>

On 21/02/2015 18:59, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> So what sort of value is reasonable for leakage?

You need to look at the datasheet for each capacitor to find out what
the maximum leakage should be. Here is an example taken from the
Panasonic M Series datasheet:

DC Leakage Current: I <= 0.01CV or 3uA after 2 minutes (whichever is
greater)

So if C321 on the monitor board was a Panasonic M series then the
leakage would be:

I = 0.01 x 1000uF x 16V = 160uA

You need to connect a DMM with mA (or better uA) range in series with
the bench supply and capacitor so you can check that the leakage falls
below this value. You may find that it takes a while to reach this value
if the capacitor has not been reformed recently.

Once you've done a few of these you may not need to look at the
datasheet every time as you will get to know what reasonable values are
for a given capacitance and voltage.

Matt

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Feb 22 09:20:00 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 15:20:00 -0000
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <54E9DFE7.5090409@9track.net>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>,
 <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com> <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
 <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com> <54E299EF.7010906@9track.net>
 <01b201d04e04$def37fc0$9cda7f40$@ntlworld.com> <54E8D1A2.8080007@cimmeri.com>
 <01b301d04e08$7930a380$6b91ea80$@ntlworld.com> <54E9DFE7.509040
 9@9track.net>
Message-ID: <01f401d04eb3$066a80e0$133f82a0$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Matt
Burke
> Sent: 22 February 2015 13:56
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
> 
> On 21/02/2015 18:59, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> > So what sort of value is reasonable for leakage?
> 
> You need to look at the datasheet for each capacitor to find out what the
> maximum leakage should be. Here is an example taken from the Panasonic M
> Series datasheet:
> 
> DC Leakage Current: I <= 0.01CV or 3uA after 2 minutes (whichever is
> greater)
> 
> So if C321 on the monitor board was a Panasonic M series then the leakage
> would be:
> 
> I = 0.01 x 1000uF x 16V = 160uA
> 
> You need to connect a DMM with mA (or better uA) range in series with the
> bench supply and capacitor so you can check that the leakage falls below
this
> value. You may find that it takes a while to reach this value if the
capacitor has
> not been reformed recently.
> 
> Once you've done a few of these you may not need to look at the datasheet
> every time as you will get to know what reasonable values are for a given
> capacitance and voltage.
> 
> Matt


I did pretty much what you say last night. All the caps settled down to a
leakage of the order of 10-20uA after no more than a minute on their maximum
voltage. Although my bench PSU does not go to the 50V needed for some of the
caps. Was considering putting the board back in after having done some light
reforming on them (ie not for more than a couple of minutes each), in case
they just needed reforming.

Regards

Rob


From wilson at dbit.com  Sun Feb 22 10:47:20 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 11:47:20 -0500
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <01f401d04eb3$066a80e0$133f82a0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com>
 <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
 <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com>
 <54E299EF.7010906@9track.net>
 <01b201d04e04$def37fc0$9cda7f40$@ntlworld.com>
 <54E8D1A2.8080007@cimmeri.com>
 <01b301d04e08$7930a380$6b91ea80$@ntlworld.com>
 <54E9DFE7.5090409@9track.net>
 <01f401d04eb3$066a80e0$133f82a0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <20150222164720.GA6102@dbit.dbit.com>

On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 03:20:00PM -0000, Robert Jarratt wrote:
>I did pretty much what you say last night. All the caps settled down to a
>leakage of the order of 10-20uA after no more than a minute on their maximum
>voltage. Although my bench PSU does not go to the 50V needed for some of the
>caps. Was considering putting the board back in after having done some light
>reforming on them (ie not for more than a couple of minutes each), in case
>they just needed reforming.

Since you're drawing practically no current, it seems like sticking a
few 9V batteries in series with your bench supply would be an easy way
to be absolutely sure.

John Wilson
D Bit

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Sun Feb 22 11:14:09 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 11:14:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <01b201d04e04$def37fc0$9cda7f40$@ntlworld.com>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>,
 <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com> <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
 <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com> <54E299EF.7010906@9track.net>
 <01b201d04e04$def37fc0$9cda7f40$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502221039200.20965@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Sat, 21 Feb 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote:

> I have been desoldering and checking all the electrolytics. I have set 
> each one up on my bench PSU with the current limiter set, and taking 
> them up to their rated voltage, or as near as I could because some are 
> rated 50V and my bench PSU only reaches 30V. None of them seemed to show 
> any leakage, but my bench PSU will not display currents below 10mA, I am 
> not sure if that is enough to show leakage that matters. I also tested 
> their capacitance values, a few are well above nominal value, but within 
> the tolerance shown on the printset. The worst one is +41% when the 
> range is +50-10%.
>
> I started checking some of the tantalum capacitors. They all looked 
> fine, but I don't know what a sensible ESR value is for these. One of 
> them (C315) is rated 1uF 35V and has an ESR of 3.4. Is that high for a 
> tantalum?
>
> One respondent asked for a picture, the printset is here, 
> http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,5422 and the relevant drawing 
> is on page 58.

Is C441 really 10uF 25V? That is what both the parts list and schematic 
show, but even as old as a VT100 is, I wouldn't think a standard 10uF 25V 
part would be in an 18mm diameter can.

I've had this discussion with several people recently, but why bother even 
attempting to reform the capacitors on this particular board? If you are 
going to desolder them anyway, why not just replace them and be done with 
it? From the high resolution photo, the original axial mount parts at C439 
and C437 have already been replaced and almost all of these parts are 
cheap and very easy to obtain. The only exception I can see is C437, which 
is a 75uF 6V part. Even with that one, you can still get 75uF axial mount 
parts from Vishay in 25V and 50V which would probably fit the pad layout 
just fine.

I dunno...maybe I just have a totally different way of rebuilding older 
gear. I'd rather replace any 20-30 year old aluminum electrolytics 
wholesale with known good modern parts (which as long as you stay away 
from the knock-offs and counterfeits on eBay, are likely to far outlast 
the originals) and then move on to testing and troubleshooting other stuff 
and not have to later return to troubleshooting a power supply or 
something else because of intermittent issues caused by old aluminum 
electrolytics. This is definitely the way things are done in the arcade 
and coin-op world (no point in troubleshooting faulty logic chips until 
you clean up any power supply ripple), and also the way things are usually 
done with vintage TVs and radios (vacuum tubes/valves), but I've seen 
pushback from some people in the vintage computing community to wholesale 
replacement of aluminum electrolytics which are long past their life 
expectancy and I just don't get it.

In the vintage audio communities, there are of course a handful of 
"purists" who would rather have 40+ year old leaky (as in voltage) dried 
out paper caps in there audio gear than modern poly film parts, but why 
the reluctance to changing out aluminum electrolytics in things like DC 
power supplies? It's not like these parts wouldn't have been replaced 
already had a vintage computer still been in a production environment.

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Feb 22 11:26:50 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 12:26:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
Message-ID: <20150222172650.12CE918C0E1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Matt Burke

    > You need to connect a DMM with mA (or better uA) range in series with
    > the bench supply and capacitor

I was wondering about that - isn't the startup current, when the supply is
first turned on, going to be substantial, especially with the larger caps?
Any chance that could harm the DMM (or am I too used to old mechanical
meters? ;-), or are they pretty well protected against over-current
situations?

If one does have to worry about this, is there a need for some sort of switch
arrangement so that on initial power-on, there's a direct connection (supply
-> cap), but once it's been on a few seconds, one can switch to route things
through the DMM, to measure current with the cap mostly charged?

Again, apologies for the elementary questions, but I'm not a hardware guy by
trade... :-)

	Noel

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Feb 22 11:33:55 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 17:33:55 -0000
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502221039200.20965@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>,
 <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com> <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
 <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com> <54E299EF.7010906@9track.net>
 <01b201d04e04$def37fc0$9cda7f40$@ntlworld.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502221039200.20965@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <023301d04ec5$bbd9ee90$338dcbb0$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tothwolf
> Sent: 22 February 2015 17:14
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: RE: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
> 
> On Sat, 21 Feb 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> 
> > I have been desoldering and checking all the electrolytics. I have set
> > each one up on my bench PSU with the current limiter set, and taking
> > them up to their rated voltage, or as near as I could because some are
> > rated 50V and my bench PSU only reaches 30V. None of them seemed to
> > show any leakage, but my bench PSU will not display currents below
> > 10mA, I am not sure if that is enough to show leakage that matters. I
> > also tested their capacitance values, a few are well above nominal
> > value, but within the tolerance shown on the printset. The worst one
> > is +41% when the range is +50-10%.
> >
> > I started checking some of the tantalum capacitors. They all looked
> > fine, but I don't know what a sensible ESR value is for these. One of
> > them (C315) is rated 1uF 35V and has an ESR of 3.4. Is that high for a
> > tantalum?
> >
> > One respondent asked for a picture, the printset is here,
> > http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,5422 and the relevant drawing
> > is on page 58.
> 
> Is C441 really 10uF 25V? That is what both the parts list and schematic
show,
> but even as old as a VT100 is, I wouldn't think a standard 10uF 25V part
would
> be in an 18mm diameter can.


Yes it is. I have it right in front of me. It is a non-polarised capacitor
that looks like an electrolytic.


> 
> I've had this discussion with several people recently, but why bother even
> attempting to reform the capacitors on this particular board? If you are
going
> to desolder them anyway, why not just replace them and be done with it?
From
> the high resolution photo, the original axial mount parts at C439 and C437
have
> already been replaced and almost all of these parts are cheap and very
easy to
> obtain. The only exception I can see is C437, which is a 75uF 6V part.
Even with
> that one, you can still get 75uF axial mount parts from Vishay in 25V and
50V
> which would probably fit the pad layout just fine.
> 
> I dunno...maybe I just have a totally different way of rebuilding older
gear. I'd
> rather replace any 20-30 year old aluminum electrolytics wholesale with
known
> good modern parts (which as long as you stay away from the knock-offs and
> counterfeits on eBay, are likely to far outlast the originals) and then
move on to
> testing and troubleshooting other stuff and not have to later return to
> troubleshooting a power supply or something else because of intermittent
> issues caused by old aluminum electrolytics. This is definitely the way
things
> are done in the arcade and coin-op world (no point in troubleshooting
faulty
> logic chips until you clean up any power supply ripple), and also the way
things
> are usually done with vintage TVs and radios (vacuum tubes/valves), but
I've
> seen pushback from some people in the vintage computing community to
> wholesale replacement of aluminum electrolytics which are long past their
life
> expectancy and I just don't get it.
> 
> In the vintage audio communities, there are of course a handful of
"purists"
> who would rather have 40+ year old leaky (as in voltage) dried out paper
caps
> in there audio gear than modern poly film parts, but why the reluctance to
> changing out aluminum electrolytics in things like DC power supplies? It's
not
> like these parts wouldn't have been replaced already had a vintage
computer
> still been in a production environment.



I suppose I could do that, but I do like to try to find the actual problem
if I possibly can, and keep as much original as possible, and it helps me to
learn about the circuits too. Perhaps I should just replace and be done with
it, which saves me storing up trouble for the future. I have the parts ready
but just want to see if I can find the problem first.

Thanks

Rob



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Feb 22 11:36:28 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 12:36:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RA81 removal
Message-ID: <20150222173628.38B8418C0E1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

>From a while back:

    > From: Noel Chiappa

    > What's odd is that RL0x's use almost identical (maybe they are
    > identical) slides

So I recently happened to be doing some stuff in the basement, and I compared
the DEC part numbers on the RA81 slides and some RL02 slides I have, and
... they are indeed the same part number!

    > but on the RLOx's, there _is_ (I think) a way to take the drive out
    > without undoing screws; there's a little latch at the very front of the
    > slide, and it looks like if one trips that latch, the rail along the
    > side of the drive case will slide out out of the slides.

I have yet to try this and see if the RL0x's will in fact slide out - does
anyone happen to know if RL0x's can be slid out?

    > I wonder why they didn't do that on the RA8x's as well? Maybe because
    > those weigh so much more?

Definitely a possibility, given that they are in fact the same slides.

	Noel

From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Sun Feb 22 11:56:52 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 11:56:52 -0600
Subject: RA81 removal
In-Reply-To: <20150222173628.38B8418C0E1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150222173628.38B8418C0E1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <AF75F27F-449A-4523-A571-06EF9F2C5331@gmail.com>





> On Feb 22, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> From a while back:
> 
>> From: Noel Chiappa
> 
>> What's odd is that RL0x's use almost identical (maybe they are
>> identical) slides
> 
> So I recently happened to be doing some stuff in the basement, and I compared
> the DEC part numbers on the RA81 slides and some RL02 slides I have, and
> ... they are indeed the same part number!
> 
>> but on the RLOx's, there _is_ (I think) a way to take the drive out
>> without undoing screws; there's a little latch at the very front of the
>> slide, and it looks like if one trips that latch, the rail along the
>> side of the drive case will slide out out of the slides.
> 
> I have yet to try this and see if the RL0x's will in fact slide out - does
> anyone happen to know if RL0x's can be slid out?

You can slide them all the way out to the maintenance position, but if you want to remove the drive from the rack completely, there are two screws on each side that must be removed.  It's a bit tricky, the screws in question are only visible if the drive is slightly back from the full forward position.


> 
>> I wonder why they didn't do that on the RA8x's as well? Maybe because
>> those weigh so much more?
> 
> Definitely a possibility, given that they are in fact the same slides.
> 
>    Noel

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb 22 12:25:23 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 10:25:23 -0800
Subject: Anyone remember Archie McPhee & Co?
In-Reply-To: <CAKnFLd3o2M5zL5y9=_d=tDawUPdQ--5svLXdiC+MHQQPraJo5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E96DCC.2020604@sydex.com>
 <CAKnFLd3o2M5zL5y9=_d=tDawUPdQ--5svLXdiC+MHQQPraJo5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54EA1F13.1080406@sydex.com>

On 02/21/2015 11:33 PM, Jason Scott wrote:
> A lot of people remember Archie McPhee because Archie McPhee is still very
> much in business.
>
> http://mcphee.com/shop/

Ah, so the computer soft sculptures that I have from them are trashcan 
fodder.  Gotcha.

--Chuck


From jason at textfiles.com  Sun Feb 22 12:29:09 2015
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 10:29:09 -0800
Subject: Anyone remember Archie McPhee & Co?
In-Reply-To: <54EA1F13.1080406@sydex.com>
References: <54E96DCC.2020604@sydex.com>
 <CAKnFLd3o2M5zL5y9=_d=tDawUPdQ--5svLXdiC+MHQQPraJo5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54EA1F13.1080406@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd0XhyT1151-C4M_ptj=BA3_j9F8rveuF9VC8BcV0Uem9Q@mail.gmail.com>

If your entire outlook of the world is "high-price sellable artifact" and
"trash", then yes.

On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 10:25 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 02/21/2015 11:33 PM, Jason Scott wrote:
>
>> A lot of people remember Archie McPhee because Archie McPhee is still very
>> much in business.
>>
>> http://mcphee.com/shop/
>>
>
> Ah, so the computer soft sculptures that I have from them are trashcan
> fodder.  Gotcha.
>
> --Chuck
>
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb 22 12:39:53 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 10:39:53 -0800
Subject: Old toner
Message-ID: <54EA2279.6030200@sydex.com>

I came across a carton (10 boxes) of Panasonic laser printer toner 
KX-P450 in my "I forgot about this stuff" stash.  This is the toner for 
the old KX-P4450 series.  I still have a 4455, but it's destined for the 
scrap heap, as it's not any better or more useful than any printer I 
have now--and is a messy bugger to refill.

My question is "Can this toner" be used to refill other printer 
cartridges?"  In other words, is most printer toner pretty much the same 
stuff?

--Chuck

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb 22 12:41:33 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 10:41:33 -0800
Subject: Anyone remember Archie McPhee & Co?
In-Reply-To: <CAKnFLd0XhyT1151-C4M_ptj=BA3_j9F8rveuF9VC8BcV0Uem9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E96DCC.2020604@sydex.com>
 <CAKnFLd3o2M5zL5y9=_d=tDawUPdQ--5svLXdiC+MHQQPraJo5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54EA1F13.1080406@sydex.com>
 <CAKnFLd0XhyT1151-C4M_ptj=BA3_j9F8rveuF9VC8BcV0Uem9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54EA22DD.10501@sydex.com>

On 02/22/2015 10:29 AM, Jason Scott wrote:
> If your entire outlook of the world is "high-price sellable artifact" and
> "trash", then yes.

No, just that I'm not into voodoo dolls and if it's not worth anything, 
I might as well throw it out.  The dogs would only eat or destroy the thing.

--Chuck



From evan at snarc.net  Sun Feb 22 12:49:43 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 13:49:43 -0500
Subject: VCF East (and PDP-8) updates!
In-Reply-To: <54A0BD29.2090608@snarc.net>
References: <54A0BD29.2090608@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <54EA24C7.40007@snarc.net>

Various updates on VCF East (April 17-19, Wall, NJ):

- There will be SIXTEEN technical classes on Friday
- There are THIRTY exhibits (and counting!) for Saturday/Sunday
- There are FOUR people exhibiting PDP-8s. (One straight, one /E, three 
/Ms!)

Information is frequently updated via:
- vintage.org/2015/east/
- facebook.com/vcfeast
- twitter.com/vcfeast

Tickets are available on the VCF East web site (link above) or at the 
door (credit card * might * be an option; cash preferred).

From jason at textfiles.com  Sun Feb 22 13:00:38 2015
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 11:00:38 -0800
Subject: Anyone remember Archie McPhee & Co?
In-Reply-To: <54EA22DD.10501@sydex.com>
References: <54E96DCC.2020604@sydex.com>
 <CAKnFLd3o2M5zL5y9=_d=tDawUPdQ--5svLXdiC+MHQQPraJo5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54EA1F13.1080406@sydex.com>
 <CAKnFLd0XhyT1151-C4M_ptj=BA3_j9F8rveuF9VC8BcV0Uem9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <54EA22DD.10501@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd0qdG8Eqrn2sBpK-tv++ETRLhNDC_dq6Nh19MFCD-jJGw@mail.gmail.com>

Suggest a local charity box, so some kid has something to mess with when
his parents can't afford to splurge for christmas.

On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 02/22/2015 10:29 AM, Jason Scott wrote:
>
>> If your entire outlook of the world is "high-price sellable artifact" and
>> "trash", then yes.
>>
>
> No, just that I'm not into voodoo dolls and if it's not worth anything, I
> might as well throw it out.  The dogs would only eat or destroy the thing.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

From jason at textfiles.com  Sun Feb 22 13:01:28 2015
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 11:01:28 -0800
Subject: VCF East (and PDP-8) updates!
In-Reply-To: <54EA24C7.40007@snarc.net>
References: <54A0BD29.2090608@snarc.net>
	<54EA24C7.40007@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd3pKpvox_V5Ve01gBCpS3kVvEGqUDtRC_GLQCwC_SdmjQ@mail.gmail.com>

> - There are FOUR people exhibiting PDP-8s. (One straight, one /E, three
> /Ms!)
>

Obvious: Cage Match

From jfoust at threedee.com  Sun Feb 22 12:52:24 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 12:52:24 -0600
Subject: ab20 archive
In-Reply-To: <53EA30ED.1000104@bitsavers.org>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1408111059370.13114@web.home>
 <CAKnFLd3MWQb0_8+Hw1VHp1d9gRGntaCxOor0Lx5xhaD6ub2xxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <201408121342.s7CDglLO070737@dewey.classiccmp.org>
 <53EA30ED.1000104@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <mailman.38.1424632488.1134.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 09:21 AM 8/12/2014, Al Kossow wrote:
>On 8/12/14 6:26 AM, John Foust wrote:
>>>>Does anyone by change have either of the following walnut creek cdrom,
>>>>
>>>>AB20 Amiga CD-ROM
>>>>Aminet CD-ROM disc, 6/93 , ( note this is not part of the aminet cds from
>>>>Urban D. Mueller)
>>
>>I bet I have them both; the trick would be finding them.
>
>That would be a good thing. Early Walnut Creek CDROMs aren't very common. It looks
>like I only have ten from 1992 to 1994.

For the record, I found my Walnut Creek AB20 CD and sent an ISO to 
Jacob and Al.  I'm cleaning and hunting, so I might find Aminet, too.

- John


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb 22 13:25:03 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 11:25:03 -0800
Subject: Anyone remember Archie McPhee & Co?
In-Reply-To: <CAKnFLd0qdG8Eqrn2sBpK-tv++ETRLhNDC_dq6Nh19MFCD-jJGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E96DCC.2020604@sydex.com>
 <CAKnFLd3o2M5zL5y9=_d=tDawUPdQ--5svLXdiC+MHQQPraJo5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54EA1F13.1080406@sydex.com>
 <CAKnFLd0XhyT1151-C4M_ptj=BA3_j9F8rveuF9VC8BcV0Uem9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <54EA22DD.10501@sydex.com>
 <CAKnFLd0qdG8Eqrn2sBpK-tv++ETRLhNDC_dq6Nh19MFCD-jJGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54EA2D0F.8020109@sydex.com>

On 02/22/2015 11:00 AM, Jason Scott wrote:
> Suggest a local charity box, so some kid has something to mess with when
> his parents can't afford to splurge for christmas.

I have a better idea.  When I send something out, if there's empty space 
in the box, I'll just use one as packing material.

--Chuck


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sun Feb 22 13:47:57 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 13:47:57 -0600
Subject: 21MX/E FAB
Message-ID: <004d01d04ed8$75b39430$611abc90$@classiccmp.org>

In pouring over the documentation for the 13304A (FAB), I find one thing
unclear. Is there a way to disable a given block? Empirically, it seems that
if you have roms in a given block they are going to get mapped SOMEWHERE,
depending on the jumpers and if you don't have roms in a given block you
don't have to worry about setting jumpers to disable that block. But I was
curious if there was a given jumper combination for a block to disable it -
without having to pull the roms. Not a huge deal, just curious, and I don't
see it in the docs. Any thoughts?

 

Best,

 

J


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Feb 22 14:18:40 2015
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 12:18:40 -0800
Subject: Old toner
In-Reply-To: <54EA2279.6030200@sydex.com>
References: <54EA2279.6030200@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <233AB442-3C56-4934-81F7-86368692B730@aracnet.com>


On Feb 22, 2015, at 10:39 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> I came across a carton (10 boxes) of Panasonic laser printer toner KX-P450 in my "I forgot about this stuff" stash.  This is the toner for the old KX-P4450 series.  I still have a 4455, but it's destined for the scrap heap, as it's not any better or more useful than any printer I have now--and is a messy bugger to refill.
> 
> My question is "Can this toner" be used to refill other printer cartridges?"  In other words, is most printer toner pretty much the same stuff?
> 
> --Chuck

Having supported a large install base of printers and plotters in the past, I'm one of those people that don't recommend refilling toner cartridges, or using 3rd party toner cartridges.

Zane





From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Feb 22 14:29:23 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 12:29:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Anyone remember Archie McPhee & Co?
In-Reply-To: <54EA22DD.10501@sydex.com>
References: <54E96DCC.2020604@sydex.com>
 <CAKnFLd3o2M5zL5y9=_d=tDawUPdQ--5svLXdiC+MHQQPraJo5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54EA1F13.1080406@sydex.com>
 <CAKnFLd0XhyT1151-C4M_ptj=BA3_j9F8rveuF9VC8BcV0Uem9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <54EA22DD.10501@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150222122856.N11039@shell.lmi.net>

> On 02/22/2015 10:29 AM, Jason Scott wrote:
> > If your entire outlook of the world is "high-price sellable artifact" and
> > "trash", then yes.
On Sun, 22 Feb 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> No, just that I'm not into voodoo dolls and if it's not worth anything,
> I might as well throw it out.  The dogs would only eat or destroy the thing.

Just send them to Jason.








From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 22 14:52:44 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 21:52:44 +0100
Subject: Old toner
In-Reply-To: <233AB442-3C56-4934-81F7-86368692B730@aracnet.com>
References: <54EA2279.6030200@sydex.com>
 <233AB442-3C56-4934-81F7-86368692B730@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS334311D9E09A62BDF0ACD486280@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Zane Healy
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 9:18 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Old toner

On Feb 22, 2015, at 10:39 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> I came across a carton (10 boxes) of Panasonic laser printer toner KX-P450 
> in my "I forgot about this stuff" stash.  This is the toner for the old 
> KX-P4450 series.  I still have a 4455, but it's destined for the scrap 
> heap, as it's not any better or more useful than any printer I have 
> now--and is a messy bugger to refill.
>
> My question is "Can this toner" be used to refill other printer 
> cartridges?"  In other words, is most printer toner pretty much the same 
> stuff?
>
> --Chuck

Having supported a large install base of printers and plotters in the past, 
I'm one of those people that don't recommend refilling toner cartridges, or 
using 3rd party toner cartridges.

Zane

----- my response ----
Zane is correct. Toner is not toner. The compound may slightly differ,
and the toner particle size may be different. If you printer uses, say,
30 micrometer toner particles and you fill the cartridge with toner
with 20 micrometer particles, you probably have to clean the entire
mechanism, because the "thinner" toner will go through the
mechanism as "water". And your prints might turn out smudgy.
Larger size particles will also bad copies, and possible block the
mechanisms. So, yes, correct toner for a copier/printer is essential.

- Henk


From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Sun Feb 22 07:29:28 2015
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 02:29:28 +1300
Subject: PDP-8/M restoration project
In-Reply-To: <1419288272.5714.YahooMailBasic@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1419288272.5714.YahooMailBasic@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbMrOrpFz0qEym00Q0j-iKtB1_=5xjf4ZmKhKFtBnYsrdg@mail.gmail.com>

For memory you couldn't do much better than this, unless you're hung
up on original DEC components:

http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/32KOmnibus/32KOmnibus.php

I believe Vince still has a few sets available.

Mike

On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Brian L. Stuart
<blstuart at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> For any of you who are on more than one of these lists, I apologize
> in advance for your getting multiple copies of this.
>
> Now that I'm moved into the new place and the man cave (my basement)
> is converging on a usable state and in recognition of the upcoming 50th
> anniversary of the introduction of the PDP-8, I'm about to embark on a
> project to restore a PDP-8/M I got a while back.  Unfortunately, this one
> is somewhat incomplete..  So I'm looking to start collecting some of the
> bits I'll need before it's all said and done.  The items I need are in descending
> order of priority:
>
> KK8E M8320 Bus load module
> KL8E M8650 Async module
> H851 Inter-module jumper blocks for the CPU boards
> Memory
> Storage device and controller
> Power switch key
> One front panel switch paddle
>
> If you have any of those that you're looking to unload (especially
> the M8320 or the M8650), let me know.
>
> Obviously, I can live without the switch paddle and I should be able to
> get a new key cut, but if anyone has extras lying around, I promise to
> give them a good home.  The truth is I don't expect to come up with
> memory or storage devices for what I can justify spending.  However,
> it turns out I do have an Omnibus prototype board.  So I'm planning
> to use that to build a device to emulate a set of RK05s using an SD
> card for storage, and if need be, I can put memory on there too.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> BLS
>



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From simski at dds.nl  Sun Feb 22 08:40:31 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 15:40:31 +0100
Subject: Lexitron Videotype
Message-ID: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>

Hello all,

I mailed about this last year, and got no response, so here again:

I'm looking for info on this very strange terminal/wordprocessor from 
the early seventies:

http://aheckofa.com/FoolMeOnce/MiscScans/EarlyVideoWP400.png
https://hack42.nl/gallery/v/Museum/DSCF7634.JPG.html
http://aheckofa.com/FoolMeOnce/MiscScans/Lexitron500.png

as you see, there is not much info on the web about this very beautiful, 
yet strange beast.

Unfortunately the picture tube is broken and we are missing the main 
processing unit. It seems that the display used vector graphics as the 
horizontal an vertical are identical in design and the normal raster 
scanning generators are missing. the terminal connected with a 94 pin 
connector to the main unit, being also fed power though this cable.

anyone

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sun Feb 22 15:04:32 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:04:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <20150222172650.12CE918C0E1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150222172650.12CE918C0E1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <201502222104.QAA01597@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> I was wondering about that - isn't the startup current, when the
> supply is first turned on, going to be substantial, especially with
> the larger caps?

Generally, yes.

> Any chance that could harm the DMM (or am I too used to old
> mechanical meters? ;-), or are they pretty well protected against
> over-current situations?

I would imagine it depends on the meter; I don't know such things
enough to know which kind is commoner.  I would tend to be paranoid
about it, so either I would charge the cap up directly and then
disconnect it and reconnect it through the meter, or I would hook an
SPST in parallel with the meter and make sure it's closed at initial
power-up.

Alternatively, I'd use something like a 1 ohm 1 watt resistor in series
and then hook a DMM set to voltage across that.  But if the leakage is
down in the microamp range, that may work poorly to not at all (though
something like that is what current ranges tend to actually be
implemented as, AIUI).

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From vrs at msn.com  Sun Feb 22 15:26:51 2015
From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 13:26:51 -0800
Subject: PDP-8/M restoration project
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbMrOrpFz0qEym00Q0j-iKtB1_=5xjf4ZmKhKFtBnYsrdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1419288272.5714.YahooMailBasic@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPhLQbMrOrpFz0qEym00Q0j-iKtB1_=5xjf4ZmKhKFtBnYsrdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU437-SMTP1222796DDCD48B0965E0C0B2280@phx.gbl>

From: Mike Ross: Sunday, February 22, 2015 5:29 AM
> For memory you couldn't do much better than this, unless you're hung
> up on original DEC components:
> 
> http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/32KOmnibus/32KOmnibus.php
> 
> I believe Vince still has a few sets available.

I don't, actually, which means it's probably time to explore what to 
do about a follow-on.  I've got a couple of folks who've expressed 
interest so far, and I'd need at least a dozen to warrant another 
board order.

> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Brian L. Stuart wrote:
>> One front panel switch paddle

I've had excellent results with the sintered nylon ("plastic, 
strong and flexible") printed by Shapeways.  I can provide 
design files that should more closely match originals than 
the ones currently on my web site.  (Tose work fine, but
hang a little differently than originals.)

    Vince 

From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Sun Feb 22 15:53:07 2015
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:53:07 -0500
Subject: PDP-8/M restoration project
In-Reply-To: <BLU437-SMTP1222796DDCD48B0965E0C0B2280@phx.gbl>
References: <1419288272.5714.YahooMailBasic@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPhLQbMrOrpFz0qEym00Q0j-iKtB1_=5xjf4ZmKhKFtBnYsrdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU437-SMTP1222796DDCD48B0965E0C0B2280@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20150222215307.GA21088@ns1.bonedaddy.net>

* Vincent Slyngstad <vrs at msn.com> [150222 16:26]:
> From: Mike Ross: Sunday, February 22, 2015 5:29 AM
> > For memory you couldn't do much better than this, unless you're hung
> > up on original DEC components:
> > 
> > http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/32KOmnibus/32KOmnibus.php
> > 
> > I believe Vince still has a few sets available.
> 
> I don't, actually, which means it's probably time to explore what to 
> do about a follow-on.  I've got a couple of folks who've expressed 
> interest so far, and I'd need at least a dozen to warrant another 
> board order.

I'd pick up at least a couple

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sun Feb 22 17:07:15 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 18:07:15 -0500
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <201502202027.PAA15117@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <54E38260.8070206@sydex.com> <54E3C339.3090903@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <071101d04b0b$9ef7d570$dce78050$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTSkPfXpEuEzVY5B5N95Dpbkv3_y4NpBhmQxdsxFEUKeAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150218071617.cvm4qxi6fsgs88og@webmail.opentransfer.com>
 <54E5150B.7020309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAALmimntB0hwU-yOn_T7eMkY-OMeE_v3v6Wk1Y+cTwzSt1ETfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150219163652.0402E2073E9C@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502190831340.10769@deltasoft.com>
 <20150219093747.E60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219125824.03d9c730@juno.com>
 <CAALmimmwU7JKRQJewqxSCtW9Byt4d2-c1WA6LNH2uzXb9aPzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20150219144301.03d581c0@juno.com>
 <20150219143442.V60986@shell.lmi.net>
 <907ADA7F-02F7-4BC6-817F-2FF6B806EE53@shiresoft.com> <54E68E34.9020405@syde
 x.com> <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <54E792B8.1040003@sydex.com>
 <201502202027.PAA15117@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <54EA6123.2010401@compsys.to>

 >Mouse wrote:

>>[...]
>>I'm not at all certain that such a skill is even marginally valuable
>>today.  Who codes much in assembly, much less machine code?
>>
>Those two sentences are only somewhat related.  Knowing instruction
>encoding is important to anyone who is writing or maintaining an
>assembler or disassembler.
>
>Or who is working with malware (either generating it or analyzing it)
>or other deliberately-obscured code.
>
>Or who is designing, building, or debugging hardware.
>
>Or who is writing or maintaining a hardware simulator.
>
>Not as valuable as in the days when dealing with machine code was a
>routine programming task, but, I think, more than "not...even
>marginally valuable".  (Personally, I fall into the first, second, and
>fourth of those camps: I've done assemblers and disassemblers, I've
>picked apart captured malware, and I've done a hardware simulator.)
>
Another (similar perhaps, but definitely distinct) example is the code
which is used to debug software, often called a debugger.  Not only
does the individual who designs, maintains and / or enhances such
code need to be familiar with the actual machine code, in addition
that individual needs to be familiar with how the instructions execute
in both trap and non-trap modes.

Over the past couple of years, I enhanced the Symbolic Debugger
which executes under RT-11 to enable the user to activate additional
code added to the Symbolic Debugger which is able to determine,
then store each executed Program Counter Address within a circular
buffer.  Due to the complex nature of what is required and depending
on whether or not there is also a breakpoint at the instruction being
executed, it takes about 100 instructions to save each Program
Counter Address when saving them has been activated by the user
and there is no breakpoint at the Program Address in question.  At
the same time and with only a few more instructions of additional
overhead, the total number of instructions executed by the user
program can also be counted and displayed by the user.

When the user turns off the activation of the code which saves
the Program Counter Addresses, the user program executes
at normal speed until a breakpoint is encountered - as is the
case with the DEC version Y01.16 of the Symbolic Debugger.

As a consequence, whenever the user enables a breakpoint and the
code stops there, the user is then able to determine the path taken
through the code to reach that specific instruction without having
had to single step through the code.  The three limitations are that:
(a)  Only the last 3000 Program Counter Addresses can be retrieved
(b)  The programs is slowed by about 100 times - as opposed to
       the program being slowed by thousands of times when the user
       single steps through the program and displays each address
       being executed in real time
(c)   A total of  24K bytes of extended memory is used - this is
       offset by a substantial reduction in the Low Memory that
       is needed due to the movement of most of the former Low
       Memory code and data (when only 8 K bytes of extended
       memory was used, but with over 2240 bytes of Low
       Memory for version Y01.16) to extended memory to the
       middle portion of the 24K bytes (along with additional help
       text which supports the new features) since the code and
       data to save the Program Counter Addresses is located in
       the last third of the 24K bytes

Jerome Fine

From digitgraph at gmail.com  Sun Feb 22 14:56:29 2015
From: digitgraph at gmail.com (John Kaur)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 13:56:29 -0700
Subject: Old toner
In-Reply-To: <233AB442-3C56-4934-81F7-86368692B730@aracnet.com>
References: <54EA2279.6030200@sydex.com>
 <233AB442-3C56-4934-81F7-86368692B730@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <CAPgw8HMYmyy0gqXD58TDs=RPzTjsdTtzJnQ+PE7hdF3bqODXdw@mail.gmail.com>

I've refilled carts, toner & ink for 25 years, mostly successful, for
myself, also bought from refillers.
If a particular unit has the same engine, usually can use the same toner,
for
other engines from the same manufacturer & series, same resolution, takes
some study,
and an knowledge, experience, unless you plan on investing time learning,
better to buy from some one else who has.
John>

From jdbryan at acm.org  Sun Feb 22 16:08:20 2015
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 17:08:20 -0500
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <54E9022A.5010303@jwsss.com>
References: <DUB113-W89DD93189A0792041EE12ACB2F0@phx.gbl>,
 <E1YPH15-0001ag-If@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <54E9022A.5010303@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <E1YPehJ-0005V4-90@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 14:09, jim s wrote:

> Does anyone have a source for the qcterm, which is suggested as a 
> terminal emulator?  The AICS Research site seems to be owned by a tax 
> prep firm now, and all of the links I found point to the dead spot.

AICS Research never made the source available, as far as I know.  
Regrettably, the owner, Wirt Atmar, died several years ago.

However, the "About" box on my copy of QCTerm says:

  "Although AICS Research Inc. reserves all rights to this product,
   QCTerm may be freely distributed to as many users as you wish so long
   as no charge or conditions are attached to that distribution." 

I'll see if Jon Johnston at the HP Computer Museum would be interested in 
hosting it.

Meanwhile, it appears to be downloadable from the Internet Archive by 
following:

  https://web.archive.org/web/20140516213133/http://aics-research.com/

The file offered there compares identically to the one I downloaded from 
AICS several years ago.

                                      -- Dave


From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk  Sun Feb 22 17:25:51 2015
From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 23:25:51 +0000
Subject: Comptometer
Message-ID: <54EA657F.8050405@ljw.me.uk>

Posting the message below for a non-subscriber (thanks to Bruce Damer) - 
please reply to Patricia Gray at the email below.

And here is the Digibarn's Comptometer Page: 
http://www.digibarn.com/collections/calculators/comptometer/

Lawrence

===

I have what I think is a model J comptometer - but the red or white key 
in the upper right hand corner of the number keys is missing part of itself.


We bought it at the San Jose Flea Market, sometime before 1987, when my 
husband died, but the local museum here has a bunch of them and no room 
for more.

Thanks.  Patricia Gray, Montrose Colorado
  pbggray at gmail.com

===

-- 
Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk
Ph 07841-048948 http://www.ljw.me.uk

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Feb 22 17:40:48 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 17:40:48 -0600
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502221039200.20965@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B165B@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>,
 <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com> <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
 <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com> <54E299EF.7010906@9track.net>
 <01b201d04e04$def37fc0$9cda7f40$@ntlworld.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502221039200.20965@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <54EA6900.3050504@pico-systems.com>

On 02/22/2015 11:14 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
>
> Is C441 really 10uF 25V? That is what both the parts list 
> and schematic show, but even as old as a VT100 is, I 
> wouldn't think a standard 10uF 25V part would be in an 
> 18mm diameter can.
>
Watch out, it could be a non-polar cap!  It was quite common 
to use non-polar electrolytics
in the vertical sweep section of video monitors.  They are 
several times larger than the
polar variety.

Jon

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun Feb 22 17:59:49 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 00:59:49 +0100
Subject: RA81 removal
In-Reply-To: <20150222173628.38B8418C0E1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150222173628.38B8418C0E1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54EA6D75.3070608@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-22 18:36, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>  From a while back:
>
>      > From: Noel Chiappa
>
>      > What's odd is that RL0x's use almost identical (maybe they are
>      > identical) slides
>
> So I recently happened to be doing some stuff in the basement, and I compared
> the DEC part numbers on the RA81 slides and some RL02 slides I have, and
> ... they are indeed the same part number!

What? That can't be. They are physically different.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb 22 18:14:00 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:14:00 -0800
Subject: Pascal not considered harmful - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRTjbLqwwD5SyNgoGGN4RVgAP9DrWnzT43aVDZ=ZBVmXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E6B6C1.8040103@shiresoft.com> <54E6E3C8.9000103@sydex.com>
 <202A422C-7D9A-4212-BF2D-B0123681DBE3@shiresoft.com>
 <007801d04d5d$0ecfa190$2c6ee4b0$@net>
 <009e01d04d69$9d9f1de0$d8dd59a0$@gmail.com> <54E7D4ED.20909@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <54E7DEB3.9000807@sydex.com> <54E7E2A2.4070608@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTRbqv1GrVuOmE85k9AN-pwqkP9zypJJ2hwwhGPveVKQyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E835AB.40905@sydex.com> <20150221103858.GB3738@brevard.conman.org>
 <54E8C5B8.4090806@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTRTjbLqwwD5SyNgoGGN4RVgAP9DrWnzT43aVDZ=ZBVmXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54EA70C8.8000906@sydex.com>

On 02/21/2015 08:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> Having short, int, and long types that occupy 64 bits of storage but
> only effectively have 48 bits of integer value is perfectly fine, but
> it does have some consequences that must be considered.

The reason I asked was because of the Seymour Cray/Jim Thornton 
philosophy on design.  I don't know if this is reflected in the Cray 1, 
but it certainly is the case in the CDC 6000-7000 series as well as the 
STAR/Cyber 200/ETA-10 line.

The 6000/7000 machines have a long add (60 bit) unit, but no integer 
multiply/divide unit--it's possible to perform a multiply or divide 
yielding a 60-bit integer, but it's a bit involved and generally not 
done.  So significance on integers is limited to 48 bits out of 60.

The Cray 1, of course, didn't even have a divide unit--just a "floating 
point reciprocal approximation" instruction.

The Cyber/STAR goes a bit farther in not mentioning the word "integer" 
at all and divides the 64 bit word into two parts--the exponent/length 
high-order part of 16 bits and the significand/index part of 48 bits. 
Any integer operations are conducted as "index" operations and the sign 
bit is bit 47.  Period--no 64 bit integers at all.  Bit-logical 
operations operate on the entire 64 bit word. Double-precision floating 
point is the pretty much the same on both 60 and 64-bit systems--an 
upper and lower floating point part, each being a complete floating 
point number with exponent.  No integers per se.

I know there was a C for the ETA units, but I don't know if a C existed 
for the 60-bit machines.   But it wouldn't surprise me if it did.

--Chuck

From mta at umich.edu  Sun Feb 22 18:24:47 2015
From: mta at umich.edu (Mike Alexander)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 19:24:47 -0500
Subject: Comptometer
In-Reply-To: <54EA657F.8050405@ljw.me.uk>
References: <54EA657F.8050405@ljw.me.uk>
Message-ID: <C4B7CC1ECB5D81FF75F94DBD@bayswater.msalexander.com>

--On February 22, 2015 at 11:25:51 PM +0000 Lawrence Wilkinson 
<ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk> wrote:

> Posting the message below for a non-subscriber (thanks to Bruce
> Damer) - please reply to Patricia Gray at the email below.
>
> And here is the Digibarn's Comptometer Page:
> http://www.digibarn.com/collections/calculators/comptometer/
>
> Lawrence
>
> ===
>
> I have what I think is a model J comptometer - but the red or white
> key in the upper right hand corner of the number keys is missing part
> of itself.
>
>
> We bought it at the San Jose Flea Market, sometime before 1987, when
> my husband died, but the local museum here has a bunch of them and no
> room for more.
>
> Thanks.  Patricia Gray, Montrose Colorado
>   pbggray at gmail.com
>
> ===

The mansion that belonged to Dorr Felt, who invented (and got rich on) 
the comptometer is now an event venue and has a small museum of 
artifacts related to Felt and his company.  They might be interested in 
it.  See <http://www.feltmansion.org/>.  I happened to stumble across 
it recently, it's an interesting place.  I had never really known 
anything about Dorr Felt before.

                Mike
 

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Sun Feb 22 19:43:23 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 19:43:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <023301d04ec5$bbd9ee90$338dcbb0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net>
 <CAJi76=uAUN+eVDT96ArQt8bJyaZg07LT2SAS2T4j6rw5TjzW3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com>
 <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com>
 <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net>
 <54BD91CE.2010809@9track.net> <027501d0346e$c9628bb0$5c27a310$@ntlworld.com>
 <54BEE292.5040805@9track.net>, <000901d0376c$e311bad0$a9353070$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027B1FAC@EXMBX16.thus.corp>
 <00a001d037d8$bf30e2a0$3d92a7e0$@ntlworld.com>
 <00b801d0496e$3131ec90$9395c5b0$@ntlworld.com> <54E217B5.1040501@cimmeri.com>
 <01a901d04a28$80051b70$800f5250$@ntlworld.com> <54E299EF.7010906@9track.net>
 <01b201d04e04$def37fc0$9cda7f40$@ntlworld.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502221039200.20965@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <023301d04ec5$bbd9ee90$338dcbb0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502221932330.20965@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Sun, 22 Feb 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tothwolf
>
>> Is C441 really 10uF 25V? That is what both the parts list and schematic 
>> show, but even as old as a VT101 is, I wouldn't think a standard 10uF 
>> 25V part would be in an 18mm diameter can.
>
> Yes it is. I have it right in front of me. It is a non-polarised 
> capacitor that looks like an electrolytic.

Ah. That explains it then. I was beginning to wonder if the printset had a 
typo and it was supposed to be a 250V rated part. I didn't see any 
indication in in the parts manifest that it was a NP part either, but 
perhaps I overlooked it. Are any of the others NP parts?

>> I've had this discussion with several people recently, but why bother 
>> even attempting to reform the capacitors on this particular board? If 
>> you are going to desolder them anyway, why not just replace them and be 
>> done with it? From the high resolution photo, the original axial mount 
>> parts at C439 and C437 have already been replaced and almost all of 
>> these parts are cheap and very easy to obtain. The only exception I can 
>> see is C437, which is a 75uF 6V part. Even with that one, you can still 
>> get 75uF axial mount parts from Vishay in 25V and 50V which would 
>> probably fit the pad layout just fine.
>
> I suppose I could do that, but I do like to try to find the actual 
> problem if I possibly can, and keep as much original as possible, and it 
> helps me to learn about the circuits too. Perhaps I should just replace 
> and be done with it, which saves me storing up trouble for the future. I 
> have the parts ready but just want to see if I can find the problem 
> first.

Well...I tend to look at replacing aluminum electrolytic capacitors as 
more of a maintenance or preventive maintenance thing vs a repair issue. 
If they are old and/or you have ripple, replace them and get that 
potential cause out of the way first and be done with it.

Were you able to find the correct axial mount parts for the 22uF, 4.7uF, 
and 75uF capacitors? I did a quick search through some of my past projects 
for compatible parts and managed to work up a short list of part numbers.

From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Sun Feb 22 21:06:14 2015
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 22:06:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: GNT-4601 punch cable help
In-Reply-To: <54D47DB9.1000903@dds.nl>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502012340130.47958@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <54CF9220.9000405@dds.nl> <54D47DB9.1000903@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502222149510.11874@cpumagic.137clearview.org>


    Well, I finally got back to the GNT 4601, and I'm still unable to get 
it to work correctly.  I'm using the following (null) cable, connected to 
the DCE connector (the one on the corner):

DE9		DB25
--------------------
1		20
2		2
3		3
4		6,8
5		7
6		20
7		5
8		4

    On the GNT 4601, FDX, DC Codes Off.

    On the Linux side:

stty -F /dev/ttyS0 -a

speed 1200 baud; rows 0; columns 0; line = 0;
intr = ^C; quit = ^\; erase = ^?; kill = ^U; eof = ^D; eol = <undef>; eol2 = <undef>; swtch = <undef>; start = ^Q;
stop = ^S; susp = ^Z; rprnt = ^R; werase = ^W; lnext = ^V; flush = ^O; min = 1; time = 0;
-parenb -parodd cs8 -hupcl -cstopb cread clocal crtscts
-ignbrk brkint -ignpar -parmrk -inpck -istrip -inlcr -igncr icrnl -ixon 
-ixoff -iuclc -ixany imaxbel -iutf8
opost -olcuc -ocrnl onlcr -onocr -onlret -ofill -ofdel nl0 cr0 tab0 bs0 
vt0 ff0
isig icanon iexten echo echoe echok -echonl -noflsh -xcase -tostop 
-echoprt echoctl echoke

    With these settings, nothing happens when I send chars to the punch 
(cat > /dev/ttyS0).  If I turn RTS/CTS off (-crtscts), the punch runs and 
chars are punched, although I'm certain not all of them.

    If I try and read a tape from the punch (cat /dev/ttyS0, press the Read 
button on the punch), I get nothing on the Linux side.  The tape reads a 
short burst every time I press Read, but nothing ever shows up on the 
terminal.

    I'm beginning to the the 4601 has a problem, at least with the reader. 
I've tried to duplicate a tape in Local mode, and nothing seems to be read 
and nothing gets punched.

    Feeling very frustrated.

On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Simon Claessen wrote:

> well I located the machine and it turns out that the connector closest to the 
> corner is used. we made a nullmodem cable going to a db9 connector and we 
> grab the papertapes on a 600/1200 baud setting as handshaking is somewhat 
> broken on the pc side and we want to be shure to get al the bits. :-)
>
> Our capture of pdp-8 tapes is here:
> https://github.com/Hack42/Museum/tree/master/Papertape
>
> On 02-02-15 16:05, Simon Claessen wrote:
>>  we have a 4601 and i've made a nullmodem cable, but at the moment, I
>>  cant to remember on which connector it went. i think is was the
>>  connector going to the terminal, not the computer one. via the dip
>>  switches on the bottom you can preset three speed settings, available at
>>  a switch on the top. I will take a look wednesday when i'm back at the
>>  museum.
>>
>>  simon
>>
>>  On 02-02-15 05:43, Mike Loewen wrote:
>> >      I have a box of old HP paper tapes to read, and am having an awful
>> >  time trying to build the right serial cable to connect a GNT-4601
>> >  reader/punch to a Linux PC.  Does anyone have a known good cable diagram
>> >  and stty settings that will work?  Thank.
>> > 
>> > 
>> >  Mike Loewen                mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
>> >  Old Technology                http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
>> > 
>> 
>
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke Groet,
>
> Simon Claessen
> drukknop.nl
>
>

Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From jdbryan at acm.org  Sun Feb 22 21:41:26 2015
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 22:41:26 -0500
Subject: 21MX/E FAB
In-Reply-To: <004d01d04ed8$75b39430$611abc90$@classiccmp.org>
References: <004d01d04ed8$75b39430$611abc90$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <E1YPjte-0000R8-Pa@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 13:47, Jay West wrote:

> In pouring over the documentation for the 13304A (FAB), I find one
> thing unclear. Is there a way to disable a given block? 

Looking at the schematic in the ERD (92851-90001 March 1981), the only non-
intrusive way to disable a populated block is to ground the "pivot" of one 
of the address jumpers for the block (i.e., the socket where the jumper 
pivots for selecting 1 or 0).  Leaving the jumpers out will, unfortunately, 
enable the ROM bank always (rather than disable the bank always).

                                      -- Dave


From derschjo at gmail.com  Sun Feb 22 23:35:24 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 21:35:24 -0800
Subject: ISO: Sun 386i color video/keyboard/mouse cable
Message-ID: <54EABC1C.4020600@gmail.com>

Subject line says it all...  From my research this is an oddball cable 
with a  "DB21W4" connector on one end that breaks out into 4 BNC plus a 
keyboard / mouse connector for the lamentable Sun 386i series (with 
color video).  (Part number 530-1366.)  I have acquired one of these 
machines and have an odd inclination to make it do something... anyone 
have one going spare?

Thanks,
Josh

From g-wright at att.net  Sun Feb 22 23:47:53 2015
From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 21:47:53 -0800
Subject: ISO: Sun 386i color video/keyboard/mouse cable
In-Reply-To: <54EABC1C.4020600@gmail.com>
References: <54EABC1C.4020600@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1424670473.15034.YahooMailNeo@web185303.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Hi Jbbbbosh

 contact me off list

- Jerry



On Sunday, February 22, 2015 9:35 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
 


Subject line says it all...  From my research this is an oddball cable 
with a  "DB21W4" connector on one end that breaks out into 4 BNC plus a 
keyboard / mouse connector for the lamentable Sun 386i series (with 
color video).  (Part number 530-1366.)  I have acquired one of these 
machines and have an odd inclination to make it do something... anyone 
have one going spare?

Thanks,
Josh

From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 02:02:54 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 00:02:54 -0800
Subject: HP 21MX Ethernet/SCSI card?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1424628000.81274.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1424628000.81274.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <8E8E2447C1C849238F5F47F69BF09301@workshop>


Silly question but I might as well ask. Would anyone have the cross compiler
assembler for the HP 85. It was used for the development of the HP-85 ROMs,
and was run on an HP 1000 (I think).
- Marc

On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 13:56, Johannes Thelen wrote:

> This is topic of its own, but do anyone know any 21MX assembler and
> microassembler for DOS/Windows? Or have I make one..? 

>The RTE operating system package available here:
>  http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=565
>...will run under SIMH on a Windows system.  The (native) assembler is
>preloaded on this system.
>The (native) microassembler add-on package is available here:
>http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection/products/9206-
13502_Rev-2013.zip
>It can be loaded and run on the above system.  The assembler and
>microprogramming manuals are available on Bitsavers as well.

                                      -- Dave



From sales at elecplus.com  Mon Feb 23 08:20:14 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 08:20:14 -0600
Subject: old keyboards wanted
Message-ID: <004f01d04f73$d76c3290$864497b0$@com>

http://graflex.org/klotz/2003/aitv/

 

If anyone has these for sale or trade, please contact me.

 

Thank you!

 

Cindy Croxton

 


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon Feb 23 08:25:32 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 15:25:32 +0100
Subject: old keyboards wanted
In-Reply-To: <004f01d04f73$d76c3290$864497b0$@com>
References: <004f01d04f73$d76c3290$864497b0$@com>
Message-ID: <20150223142532.GA32222@Update.UU.SE>

Or contact me first !!

Sorry, couldn't help it :-)

Cindy, I assume you have gotten a specific request for these keyboards. 
The "Knight" and the "Space Cadet" are exceedingly rare and very sought 
after.

I just though you should now, so you can set a proper price tag.

Kind Regards,
Pontus.

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 08:20:14AM -0600, Electronics Plus wrote:
> http://graflex.org/klotz/2003/aitv/
> 
>  
> 
> If anyone has these for sale or trade, please contact me.
> 
>  
> 
> Thank you!
> 
>  
> 
> Cindy Croxton
> 
>  
> 

From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 08:40:02 2015
From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 09:40:02 -0500
Subject: old keyboards wanted
In-Reply-To: <20150223142532.GA32222@Update.UU.SE>
References: <004f01d04f73$d76c3290$864497b0$@com>
 <20150223142532.GA32222@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAPi4v45vNVQ=22sUBAi_+U3ozGhQkTcPRufyVsnKqs-MZeg3cg@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone has found a great Symbolics elephant graveyard,  I'd like a space
cadet keyboard as well.

Todd Killingsworth

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 9:25 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
wrote:

> Or contact me first !!
>
> Sorry, couldn't help it :-)
>
> Cindy, I assume you have gotten a specific request for these keyboards.
> The "Knight" and the "Space Cadet" are exceedingly rare and very sought
> after.
>
> I just though you should now, so you can set a proper price tag.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Pontus.
>
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 08:20:14AM -0600, Electronics Plus wrote:
> > http://graflex.org/klotz/2003/aitv/
> >
> >
> >
> > If anyone has these for sale or trade, please contact me.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you!
> >
> >
> >
> > Cindy Croxton
> >
> >
> >
>

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb 23 08:53:47 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 06:53:47 -0800
Subject: old keyboards wanted
In-Reply-To: <CAPi4v45vNVQ=22sUBAi_+U3ozGhQkTcPRufyVsnKqs-MZeg3cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004f01d04f73$d76c3290$864497b0$@com>
 <20150223142532.GA32222@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAPi4v45vNVQ=22sUBAi_+U3ozGhQkTcPRufyVsnKqs-MZeg3cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54EB3EFB.4030508@shiresoft.com>

I have fond memories of using the SAIL keyboards while I was at CMU.  
They were hooked up to
a number of PDP-11s that had GDP display processors (CMU designed and 
built).  They drove HP
vector displays.  The "cheap" versions of the GDPs had 10-bit X/Y DACs 
(1024x1024) and the
"nice" versions had 12-bit X/Y DACs (4096x4096).

I'm sure that there are some still out there but as someone has already 
mentioned, they are very
rare.

I have just enough keyboards for my Symbolics 3620 (newer style 
keyboard) and 2 3640s (older
Symbolics keyboard).

TTFN - Guy

On 2/23/15 6:40 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote:
> If anyone has found a great Symbolics elephant graveyard,  I'd like a space
> cadet keyboard as well.
>
> Todd Killingsworth
>
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 9:25 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
> wrote:
>
>> Or contact me first !!
>>
>> Sorry, couldn't help it :-)
>>
>> Cindy, I assume you have gotten a specific request for these keyboards.
>> The "Knight" and the "Space Cadet" are exceedingly rare and very sought
>> after.
>>
>> I just though you should now, so you can set a proper price tag.
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>> Pontus.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 08:20:14AM -0600, Electronics Plus wrote:
>>> http://graflex.org/klotz/2003/aitv/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If anyone has these for sale or trade, please contact me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cindy Croxton
>>>
>>>
>>>


From oltmansg at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 10:45:50 2015
From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 10:45:50 -0600
Subject: Anyone remember Archie McPhee & Co?
In-Reply-To: <CAKnFLd0XhyT1151-C4M_ptj=BA3_j9F8rveuF9VC8BcV0Uem9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E96DCC.2020604@sydex.com>
 <CAKnFLd3o2M5zL5y9=_d=tDawUPdQ--5svLXdiC+MHQQPraJo5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54EA1F13.1080406@sydex.com>
 <CAKnFLd0XhyT1151-C4M_ptj=BA3_j9F8rveuF9VC8BcV0Uem9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABVr2PuOjhbCtfH0FG4J30+ggrW_Q0auyrZk5YGKjKRS1G3OYg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Jason Scott <jason at textfiles.com> wrote:

> If your entire outlook of the world is "high-price sellable artifact" and
> "trash", then yes.
>
>
Well, there's also the middling ground "worth my time" which I imagine
Chuck falls squarely into....

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb 23 12:09:28 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 10:09:28 -0800
Subject: Anyone remember Archie McPhee & Co?
In-Reply-To: <CABVr2PuOjhbCtfH0FG4J30+ggrW_Q0auyrZk5YGKjKRS1G3OYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E96DCC.2020604@sydex.com>
 <CAKnFLd3o2M5zL5y9=_d=tDawUPdQ--5svLXdiC+MHQQPraJo5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54EA1F13.1080406@sydex.com>
 <CAKnFLd0XhyT1151-C4M_ptj=BA3_j9F8rveuF9VC8BcV0Uem9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABVr2PuOjhbCtfH0FG4J30+ggrW_Q0auyrZk5YGKjKRS1G3OYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54EB6CD8.8010303@sydex.com>

On 02/23/2015 08:45 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote:

> Well, there's also the middling ground "worth my time" which I imagine
> Chuck falls squarely into....

Chuck agrees.  As the distance from the cradle increases and that toward 
the grave decreases, one's time tends to be more and more important.

Hence my current bout of house-cleaning.

--Chuck



From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Mon Feb 23 13:31:17 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 19:31:17 +0000
Subject: ab20 archive
In-Reply-To: <20150222191449.855542073E90@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1408111059370.13114@web.home>
 <CAKnFLd3MWQb0_8+Hw1VHp1d9gRGntaCxOor0Lx5xhaD6ub2xxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <201408121342.s7CDglLO070737@dewey.classiccmp.org>
 <53EA30ED.1000104@bitsavers.org>
 <20150222191449.855542073E90@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20150223193117.GA366@mooli.org.uk>

On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 12:52:24PM -0600, John Foust wrote:
> At 09:21 AM 8/12/2014, Al Kossow wrote:
[...]
>> That would be a good thing. Early Walnut Creek CDROMs aren't very common. It
>> looks like I only have ten from 1992 to 1994.

I've got a few knocking about in storage which contain early Linux
distributions. I'm not sure they're particularly rare or unusual, which is why
I haven't bothered to dig them out and make images yet.

> For the record, I found my Walnut Creek AB20 CD and sent an ISO to Jacob and
> Al. I'm cleaning and hunting, so I might find Aminet, too.

archive.org contains a full set of Aminet CDs from 1 through 52 (the first two
being Walnut Creek) and also Aminet Sets 1-3 and 9, and Aminet Games. The first
Aminet CD also seems to contain a mirror of AB20 and can be downloaded via
https://archive.org/details/aminet-walnut-creek-1.

https://archive.org/details/aminet-2 actually contains Aminet 12, and so you'll
be wanting https://archive.org/details/aminet-walnut-creek-2 for Aminet 2. My
physical CD of Aminet 3 has different contents to the version on archive.org,
and although I can see *what* the differences are, I'm unclear on the *why*. My
other handful of Aminet CDs are bitwise identical.

At some point I really should figure out how to provide errata and new uploads
for archive.org.


From sales at elecplus.com  Mon Feb 23 13:38:28 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 13:38:28 -0600
Subject: older Sun keyboards
Message-ID: <020d01d04fa0$4c999680$e5ccc380$@com>

These do not have a Sun "Type" number on them.  Definitely older style.

249-8909 or 370-0109, qty 1, missing 2 switches plus 3 more caps.  Has
mouse, 370-1091, which has definitely seen better days!

370-1095, qty 1 complete.  No mouse with this one.

 

Pictures are here: 

https://plus.google.com/photos/106111250846948401252/albums/6119126719677329
697

 

Cindy Croxton

 


From sales at elecplus.com  Mon Feb 23 14:04:10 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:04:10 -0600
Subject: older Sun keyboards
In-Reply-To: <020d01d04fa0$4c999680$e5ccc380$@com>
References: <020d01d04fa0$4c999680$e5ccc380$@com>
Message-ID: <023901d04fa3$e38b11b0$aaa13510$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics
Plus
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2015 1:38 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: older Sun keyboards

These do not have a Sun "Type" number on them.  Definitely older style.

249-8909 or 370-0109, qty 1, missing 2 switches plus 3 more caps.  Has
mouse, 370-1091, which has definitely seen better days!

370-1095, qty 1 complete.  No mouse with this one.

 

Pictures are here: 

https://plus.google.com/photos/106111250846948401252/albums/6119126719677329
697

 Edit: Both of these are Sun Type 3.

Cindy Croxton

 




-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4800 / Virus Database: 4257/9167 - Release Date: 02/23/15


From ian.finder at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 14:53:35 2015
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 12:53:35 -0800
Subject: old keyboards wanted
In-Reply-To: <CAPi4v45vNVQ=22sUBAi_+U3ozGhQkTcPRufyVsnKqs-MZeg3cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004f01d04f73$d76c3290$864497b0$@com>
 <20150223142532.GA32222@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAPi4v45vNVQ=22sUBAi_+U3ozGhQkTcPRufyVsnKqs-MZeg3cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EC52C82B-D538-4CE7-9F8C-E200260CCB3F@gmail.com>

I'm having some pain finding an Apollo keyboard and mouse. There is one on eBay listed by recycledgoods but the price seems excessive. :(



> On Feb 23, 2015, at 06:40, Todd Killingsworth <killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> If anyone has found a great Symbolics elephant graveyard,  I'd like a space
> cadet keyboard as well.
> 
> Todd Killingsworth
> 
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 9:25 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
> wrote:
> 
>> Or contact me first !!
>> 
>> Sorry, couldn't help it :-)
>> 
>> Cindy, I assume you have gotten a specific request for these keyboards.
>> The "Knight" and the "Space Cadet" are exceedingly rare and very sought
>> after.
>> 
>> I just though you should now, so you can set a proper price tag.
>> 
>> Kind Regards,
>> Pontus.
>> 
>>> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 08:20:14AM -0600, Electronics Plus wrote:
>>> http://graflex.org/klotz/2003/aitv/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> If anyone has these for sale or trade, please contact me.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Thank you!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Cindy Croxton
>> 

From evan at snarc.net  Mon Feb 23 15:06:05 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 16:06:05 -0500
Subject: PDP-8, PDP-8er, PDP-8est @ VCF East
In-Reply-To: <54EA24C7.40007@snarc.net>
References: <54A0BD29.2090608@snarc.net> <54EA24C7.40007@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <54EB963D.3050005@snarc.net>


> - There are FOUR people exhibiting PDP-8s. (One straight, one /E, 
> three /Ms!) 

Update: there will be five exhibitors demonstrating six PDP-8 computers! 
Ethan Dicks committed to bringing an 8/L.

So we'll have a half-dozen PDP-8s ... in one place ... all running ... 
in the year two-thousand-and-friggin'-fifteen.

How could anyone NOT attend this show!?

From evan at snarc.net  Mon Feb 23 15:23:51 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 16:23:51 -0500
Subject: PDP-8, PDP-8er, PDP-8est @ VCF East
In-Reply-To: <54EB963D.3050005@snarc.net>
References: <54A0BD29.2090608@snarc.net> <54EA24C7.40007@snarc.net>
 <54EB963D.3050005@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <54EB9A67.3020302@snarc.net>


>
>> - There are FOUR people exhibiting PDP-8s. (One straight, one /E, 
>> three /Ms!) 
>
> Update: there will be five exhibitors demonstrating six PDP-8 
> computers! Ethan Dicks committed to bringing an 8/L.
>
> So we'll have a half-dozen PDP-8s ... in one place ... all running ... 
> in the year two-thousand-and-friggin'-fifteen.
>
> How could anyone NOT attend this show!?
>


Oops -- forgot to mention Dave McGuire's VAX 7000 VMScluster exhibit.

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 15:29:24 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 15:29:24 -0600
Subject: PDP-8, PDP-8er, PDP-8est @ VCF East
In-Reply-To: <54EB963D.3050005@snarc.net>
References: <54A0BD29.2090608@snarc.net> <54EA24C7.40007@snarc.net>
 <54EB963D.3050005@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUx45j_v0FqhRuM8ysLuXXpwsQdSN_Nz6BuKesebfSup6Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> wrote:

>
>  - There are FOUR people exhibiting PDP-8s. (One straight, one /E, three
>> /Ms!)
>>
>
> Update: there will be five exhibitors demonstrating six PDP-8 computers!
> Ethan Dicks committed to bringing an 8/L.
>
> So we'll have a half-dozen PDP-8s ... in one place ... all running ... in
> the year two-thousand-and-friggin'-fifteen.
>
> How could anyone NOT attend this show!?
>

Rumor has it that two PDP-8s will be competing in a chess tournament.
Either way, a PDP-8 is either going to win or end in a stalemate.

Kyle

From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Mon Feb 23 15:37:39 2015
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 16:37:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: PDP-8, PDP-8er, PDP-8est @ VCF East
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUx45j_v0FqhRuM8ysLuXXpwsQdSN_Nz6BuKesebfSup6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54A0BD29.2090608@snarc.net> <54EA24C7.40007@snarc.net>
 <54EB963D.3050005@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEYUx45j_v0FqhRuM8ysLuXXpwsQdSN_Nz6BuKesebfSup6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502231637200.53737@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Mon, 23 Feb 2015, Kyle Owen wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>  - There are FOUR people exhibiting PDP-8s. (One straight, one /E, three
>>> /Ms!)
>>>
>>
>> Update: there will be five exhibitors demonstrating six PDP-8 computers!
>> Ethan Dicks committed to bringing an 8/L.
>>
>> So we'll have a half-dozen PDP-8s ... in one place ... all running ... in
>> the year two-thousand-and-friggin'-fifteen.
>>
>> How could anyone NOT attend this show!?
>>
>
> Rumor has it that two PDP-8s will be competing in a chess tournament.
> Either way, a PDP-8 is either going to win or end in a stalemate.

    Can my TRS-80 Model 4 play your PDP-8?  :-)


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 15:46:10 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 15:46:10 -0600
Subject: PDP-8, PDP-8er, PDP-8est @ VCF East
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502231637200.53737@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <54A0BD29.2090608@snarc.net> <54EA24C7.40007@snarc.net>
 <54EB963D.3050005@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEYUx45j_v0FqhRuM8ysLuXXpwsQdSN_Nz6BuKesebfSup6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502231637200.53737@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUzJ1oFcakQZ86VauppMjhU+Pp3xuYUSQ2WJcdKFqPx+KA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Mike Loewen <mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us>
wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Feb 2015, Kyle Owen wrote:
>
>>
>> Rumor has it that two PDP-8s will be competing in a chess tournament.
>> Either way, a PDP-8 is either going to win or end in a stalemate.
>>
>
>    Can my TRS-80 Model 4 play your PDP-8?  :-)
>

Don't see why not! A friend and I battled my PDP-8/M against his VIC-20. I
seem to recall the VIC winning. We had to enter the moves in by hand to
each machine.

My goal for this year's festivities will be having a modern computer
mediate the moves between the two computers, all while displaying the
current board configuration. All this to say...I better get started! :)

I was thinking about expanding the push-down list so that the PDP-8 would
be capable of thinking about more moves, but that may turn the game into a
day-long venture. Blitz mode might be a little more bearable for audience
members.

From jason at textfiles.com  Mon Feb 23 16:28:53 2015
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:28:53 -0800
Subject: ab20 archive
In-Reply-To: <20150223193117.GA366@mooli.org.uk>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1408111059370.13114@web.home>
 <CAKnFLd3MWQb0_8+Hw1VHp1d9gRGntaCxOor0Lx5xhaD6ub2xxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <201408121342.s7CDglLO070737@dewey.classiccmp.org>
 <53EA30ED.1000104@bitsavers.org>
 <20150222191449.855542073E90@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <20150223193117.GA366@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd2duiW7vgRtus9v3rTDu=EWUYKRXjUeeX99Wenac0k6sA@mail.gmail.com>

The way to do it is to hit up info at archive.org, or me. Or post a "review"
on the item with the problem that needs to be fixed.

The goal at the Archive is to get a copy of every CD-ROM ever made. Right
now, in the shareware and cover CD realms, we're well past 3000 of them
(although with the categorization and splitting, I don't have the exact
number right now). Some of them are weird and misfiled - I'll be happy to
make fixes or add more CDs as time goes on. Uploading them generally, then
letting me know, will be sufficient to get them filed away correctly.

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 12:52:24PM -0600, John Foust wrote:
> > At 09:21 AM 8/12/2014, Al Kossow wrote:
> [...]
> >> That would be a good thing. Early Walnut Creek CDROMs aren't very
> common. It
> >> looks like I only have ten from 1992 to 1994.
>
> I've got a few knocking about in storage which contain early Linux
> distributions. I'm not sure they're particularly rare or unusual, which is
> why
> I haven't bothered to dig them out and make images yet.
>
> > For the record, I found my Walnut Creek AB20 CD and sent an ISO to Jacob
> and
> > Al. I'm cleaning and hunting, so I might find Aminet, too.
>
> archive.org contains a full set of Aminet CDs from 1 through 52 (the
> first two
> being Walnut Creek) and also Aminet Sets 1-3 and 9, and Aminet Games. The
> first
> Aminet CD also seems to contain a mirror of AB20 and can be downloaded via
> https://archive.org/details/aminet-walnut-creek-1.
>
> https://archive.org/details/aminet-2 actually contains Aminet 12, and so
> you'll
> be wanting https://archive.org/details/aminet-walnut-creek-2 for Aminet
> 2. My
> physical CD of Aminet 3 has different contents to the version on
> archive.org,
> and although I can see *what* the differences are, I'm unclear on the
> *why*. My
> other handful of Aminet CDs are bitwise identical.
>
> At some point I really should figure out how to provide errata and new
> uploads
> for archive.org.
>
>

From sales at elecplus.com  Mon Feb 23 16:43:24 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 16:43:24 -0600
Subject: ab20 archive
In-Reply-To: <CAKnFLd2duiW7vgRtus9v3rTDu=EWUYKRXjUeeX99Wenac0k6sA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1408111059370.13114@web.home>
 <CAKnFLd3MWQb0_8+Hw1VHp1d9gRGntaCxOor0Lx5xhaD6ub2xxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <201408121342.s7CDglLO070737@dewey.classiccmp.org>
 <53EA30ED.1000104@bitsavers.org>
 <20150222191449.855542073E90@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <20150223193117.GA366@mooli.org.uk>
 <CAKnFLd2duiW7vgRtus9v3rTDu=EWUYKRXjUeeX99Wenac0k6sA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02ec01d04fba$21fa5670$65ef0350$@com>

I could kick myself!  I did not know you were collecting old CDs.
I gave over 100 of them to 10bit, and they trashed most of them!
I still have over 200 magazines from Win 3.1 and up, and Linux.  The Win98 and Linux ones mostly have CDs in them.
I won't be using them, need to clear space.

Cindy

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason Scott
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2015 4:29 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: ab20 archive

The way to do it is to hit up info at archive.org, or me. Or post a "review"
on the item with the problem that needs to be fixed.

The goal at the Archive is to get a copy of every CD-ROM ever made. Right now, in the shareware and cover CD realms, we're well past 3000 of them (although with the categorization and splitting, I don't have the exact number right now). Some of them are weird and misfiled - I'll be happy to make fixes or add more CDs as time goes on. Uploading them generally, then letting me know, will be sufficient to get them filed away correctly.

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 12:52:24PM -0600, John Foust wrote:
> > At 09:21 AM 8/12/2014, Al Kossow wrote:
> [...]
> >> That would be a good thing. Early Walnut Creek CDROMs aren't very
> common. It
> >> looks like I only have ten from 1992 to 1994.
>
> I've got a few knocking about in storage which contain early Linux 
> distributions. I'm not sure they're particularly rare or unusual, 
> which is why I haven't bothered to dig them out and make images yet.
>
> > For the record, I found my Walnut Creek AB20 CD and sent an ISO to 
> > Jacob
> and
> > Al. I'm cleaning and hunting, so I might find Aminet, too.
>
> archive.org contains a full set of Aminet CDs from 1 through 52 (the 
> first two being Walnut Creek) and also Aminet Sets 1-3 and 9, and 
> Aminet Games. The first Aminet CD also seems to contain a mirror of 
> AB20 and can be downloaded via 
> https://archive.org/details/aminet-walnut-creek-1.
>
> https://archive.org/details/aminet-2 actually contains Aminet 12, and 
> so you'll be wanting https://archive.org/details/aminet-walnut-creek-2 
> for Aminet 2. My physical CD of Aminet 3 has different contents to the 
> version on archive.org, and although I can see *what* the differences 
> are, I'm unclear on the *why*. My other handful of Aminet CDs are 
> bitwise identical.
>
> At some point I really should figure out how to provide errata and new 
> uploads for archive.org.
>
>



-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4800 / Virus Database: 4257/9167 - Release Date: 02/23/15


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 23 17:31:45 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 18:31:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
Message-ID: <20150223233145.3B1DA18C10F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Tothwolf

    > I've seen pushback from some people in the vintage computing community
    > to wholesale replacement of aluminum electrolytics which are long past
    > their life expectancy and I just don't get it.

Well, notice you didn't cause a big debate on the topic to break out here, as
we often get on some of these things (e.g. crimping versus soldering, etc).

My _guess_ is that vintage computer people aren't very 'religious' about it,
and to the extent that they _don't_ do it, it's as much because they don't
have the parts on hand (or the ability to find them easily), plus the work
involved, as anything else.

For those of us who are basically software people (or even pure digital),
this stuff can be a little daunting - not necessarily because it's actually
hard, it's just out of our comfort zone. I myself am certainly daunted by the
concept of replacing every electrolytic in all the power supplies of all the
vintage -11's I've got... (And I don't want to even think about all the filter
caps on all the boards! :-)

Maybe you (or someone) should offer a service... I'd sign up! :-)

	Noel

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 19:53:01 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 20:53:01 -0500
Subject: Anyone remember Archie McPhee & Co?
In-Reply-To: <54E96DCC.2020604@sydex.com>
References: <54E96DCC.2020604@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+deaGS=tx-cXFoDu_B9Q5hef9-qWt2vazBxQ0qPz0zSEgw@mail.gmail.com>

Early Archie McPhee catalogs, as well as early Jerryco (aka American
Science and Surplus) catalogs have a little big of collectible value.
Not tons - maybe five or ten bucks a pop in good shape.

--
Will

On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 12:49 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> While digging through more old detritus, I came across an Archie-McPhee
> catalog and three still in shrinkwrap, "Computer Voodoo" soft sculptures.
> Anyone know what the value of such stuff is?
>
> --Chuck

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 19:54:01 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 20:54:01 -0500
Subject: Anyone remember Archie McPhee & Co?
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deaGS=tx-cXFoDu_B9Q5hef9-qWt2vazBxQ0qPz0zSEgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E96DCC.2020604@sydex.com>
 <CANij+deaGS=tx-cXFoDu_B9Q5hef9-qWt2vazBxQ0qPz0zSEgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+deMaaO4V1XQTDWSKGkyAJDXn0ZezV6od78F6L039Z8Aeg@mail.gmail.com>

> Science and Surplus) catalogs have a little big of collectible value.

"bit" not "big".

Computers suck.

--
Will

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Mon Feb 23 22:58:32 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 20:58:32 -0800
Subject: cap replacement policies / was Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <20150223233145.3B1DA18C10F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150223233145.3B1DA18C10F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <D3BF1DBB-83DA-472B-BD24-E047174DE1FE@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-23, at 3:31 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>> From: Tothwolf
> 
>> I've seen pushback from some people in the vintage computing community
>> to wholesale replacement of aluminum electrolytics which are long past
>> their life expectancy and I just don't get it.
> 
> Well, notice you didn't cause a big debate on the topic to break out here, as
> we often get on some of these things (e.g. crimping versus soldering, etc).

> My _guess_ is that vintage computer people aren't very 'religious' about it,
> and to the extent that they _don't_ do it, it's as much because they don't
> have the parts on hand (or the ability to find them easily), plus the work
> involved, as anything else.


Well, don't be misled - there are varying opinions on the matter. 
You're probably not seeing a big debate because we've had the debate/discussion on the list on assorted occasions in the past.

In answer to Tothwolf:

As matter of routine, I will do blanket replacement of paper and electrolytic caps in vacuum-tube equipment, because the caps there are older in age, they're an older technology of cap, and they're generally working at higher voltage. With that said, I also have higher-end tube equipment running with the original 'lytic filter caps from the 1950s.

Caps after somewhere around the 1950s, and in solid-state equipment, are another matter.

For solid-state consumer equipment like transistor radios, caps from the 1960s can be a problem but even then not inherently so.

For solid-state digital equipment: I don't think I've ever done a blanket replacement of caps. The vast majority of my many dozens to hundreds of calculators, digital test equipment, computers, etc., most of which date from the 1960s and 1970s, are running with all their original caps - including specifically electrolytic filter caps. I have rarely, if ever, reformed a capacitor for a solid-state item. Keeping in mind that a mildly leaky cap which could benefit from reforming will reform during normal operation. (Also, those big screw-terminal filter caps from the linear-reg days were called "computer grade" for a reason.)

So, in relation to computers and solid-state digital, I don't understand why people get all concerned about caps.
In my experience, blanket replacement and reforming just hasn't been warranted.

There are always exceptions - I well understand why the PDP-1 restoration team would choose to be careful with the large filter caps there - age, historic significance, large amounts of energy involved. If you're doing this as a business such as the mentioned arcade-machine refurbishment, someone might choose to do blanket replacement as a pragmatic measure of insurance to help avoid call-backs, etc.

Blanket replacement (and even reforming) have an element of self-perpetuating myth to them, some people do it and recommend it, but instances of it being done don't necessarily add to a body of evidence as to whether it actually mattered.

Some of it is a matter of personal preference/values: for example some people are happy to do a blanket replacement on the probability of it encompassing a fault, others (such as myself) prefer to diagnose a fault down to the individual component level.


> For those of us who are basically software people (or even pure digital),
> this stuff can be a little daunting - not necessarily because it's actually
> hard, it's just out of our comfort zone. I myself am certainly daunted by the
> concept of replacing every electrolytic in all the power supplies of all the
> vintage -11's I've got... (And I don't want to even think about all the filter
> caps on all the boards! :-)



Early (1970s era) switch-mode power supplies of significant capacity are a category one might be a little leery or cautious around, as the design and componentry may not always have been up to the task, as they hadn't benefitted from a couple of decades of experience and targetting.

Perhaps more owners of DEC equipment from that era could add real-world experiences.


From isking at uw.edu  Mon Feb 23 23:00:47 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 21:00:47 -0800
Subject: Anyone remember Archie McPhee & Co?
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deMaaO4V1XQTDWSKGkyAJDXn0ZezV6od78F6L039Z8Aeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E96DCC.2020604@sydex.com>
 <CANij+deaGS=tx-cXFoDu_B9Q5hef9-qWt2vazBxQ0qPz0zSEgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deMaaO4V1XQTDWSKGkyAJDXn0ZezV6od78F6L039Z8Aeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ024v2as+c+yOQY1HviuvxjicjuLbj4wNgzG83w7Md++0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 5:54 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> > Science and Surplus) catalogs have a little big of collectible value.
>
> "bit" not "big".
>
> Computers suck.
>
> --
> Will
>

First step: turn off auto-corrupt.  Trust me on this.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From isking at uw.edu  Mon Feb 23 23:17:13 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 21:17:13 -0800
Subject: Patching vs. new code (was Re: Pascal not considered harmful)
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ03g5ufCCP-MLsZTHojpmDN6A6_OkSLFMGLBDx0vqhY9WA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 7:22 AM, Shiresoft <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:

>
>
> > On Feb 19, 2015, at 11:35 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 02/19/2015 08:23 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> >>
> >> Nope.  It was (and still is) how I write code (sit down and compose at
> >> the keyboard).  One of my old bosses at IBM once said "Yea, Guy just
> >> waves his hands over the keyboard and programs come out".
> >
> > That would have been impossible in my case, unless I had the most
> prodigious eidetic memory in history.
> >
> > Writing code almost always involved using an on-disk or -tape source
> code library.  Even if it was new code, there were significant advantages
> to creating a library then modifying it as one progressed.
> >
> > One would typically work with a bound listing or listings and work out
> the control system directives to update the existing code base. Remember,
> this was in the day of batch processing with almost no access to
> terminals.  Everything happened on the keypunch.
> >
> > So for one to remember all of the correction set IDs and sequence
> numbers for a group of programs or system programs would be more than
> impressive--it'd probably merit a vivisection.
>
> ;-)
>
> I never said that I didn't / don't use references while I write code.
> It's just that I don't write my code down first.  Of course most of what I
> do is new (from scratch) rather than modifying existing code.
>
> When I first started at IBM because build time for our software was about
> a week, we'd fix bugs and such with patches.  Folks in the lab would stop
> looking up the instruction encodings and would just ask me...I could do the
> assembly in my head...I'm sorely out of practice now.  :-/
> >
>

My first (paid) programming job was in 6800 assembler, using the Motorola
EXORCISER system.  It took hours (as in a major part of a day, longer than
the work day) to reassemble the entire code base, so we would patch the
program in the PROM programmer.  We would, of course, back port the changes
in symbolic assembler to the source, and every few days just take the
downtime hit to rebuild the code base.  Keep in mind that this was natively
hosted on a 6800 system.

Another interesting tidbit: its simple filesystem did not segment files and
reuse blocks, so you had to purge old versions of files, preferably before
a dozen or so files were lined up after it.  In that case, it would tie up
the system for way too long while an old file was purged and all the new
files were packed into the recovered space, block by block.  It was barely
a step above magtape.

One other note: there was a bug in certain mask sets that required a NOP
before you could set the interrupt mask.  Since the ENTIRE memory/IO space
was 64k bytes, every byte was sacred, every byte was great, and if a byte
was wasted?.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb 23 23:40:12 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 21:40:12 -0800
Subject: Patching vs. new code (was Re: Pascal not considered harmful)
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ03g5ufCCP-MLsZTHojpmDN6A6_OkSLFMGLBDx0vqhY9WA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEJ03g5ufCCP-MLsZTHojpmDN6A6_OkSLFMGLBDx0vqhY9WA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54EC0EBC.8030905@sydex.com>

On 02/23/2015 09:17 PM, Ian S. King wrote:


> My first (paid) programming job was in 6800 assembler, using the Motorola
> EXORCISER system.  It took hours (as in a major part of a day, longer than
> the work day) to reassemble the entire code base, so we would patch the
> program in the PROM programmer.  We would, of course, back port the changes
> in symbolic assembler to the source, and every few days just take the
> downtime hit to rebuild the code base.  Keep in mind that this was natively
> hosted on a 6800 system.

Well, I *know* that there was a cross-assembler for 6800 code.  Even a 
moderately small minicomputer would outpace a 6800.

Patching is okay, as long as it doesn't become permanent.  I have a 
memory of 7080 COBOL production programs patched with Autocoder object. 
  Of course, nobody knew exactly what the patches did.

One of the very good reasons to run legacy programs on emulation.

I'm certain there are thousands of these stories.

--Chuck



From swtpc6800 at comcast.net  Tue Feb 24 00:21:11 2015
From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 22:21:11 -0800
Subject: Patching vs. new code (was Re: Pascal not considered harmful)
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ03g5ufCCP-MLsZTHojpmDN6A6_OkSLFMGLBDx0vqhY9WA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEJ03g5ufCCP-MLsZTHojpmDN6A6_OkSLFMGLBDx0vqhY9WA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d04ffa$162cd6c0$42868440$@comcast.net>

In 1982 I was working at Data I/O, the PROM programmer company. Everything was written in assembler for the 6800. We had a cross assembler that ran on a PDP11, it was much faster than the Motorola EXORciser that used 8 inch floppy disks. We later updated to a VAX. On one project we had a firm code limit of 16K bytes, every week or so we would have to hand optimize our assembly language so we could keep adding the necessary features. We had about 20 bytes open when we were done.

I recall that the cross assembler was from a company named BSO.

Michael Holley

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian S. King
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2015 9:17 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Patching vs. new code (was Re: Pascal not considered harmful)


My first (paid) programming job was in 6800 assembler, using the Motorola EXORCISER system.  It took hours (as in a major part of a day, longer than the work day) to reassemble the entire code base, so we would patch the program in the PROM programmer.  We would, of course, back port the changes in symbolic assembler to the source, and every few days just take the downtime hit to rebuild the code base.  Keep in mind that this was natively hosted on a 6800 system.

Another interesting tidbit: its simple filesystem did not segment files and reuse blocks, so you had to purge old versions of files, preferably before a dozen or so files were lined up after it.  In that case, it would tie up the system for way too long while an old file was purged and all the new files were packed into the recovered space, block by block.  It was barely a step above magtape.

One other note: there was a bug in certain mask sets that required a NOP before you could set the interrupt mask.  Since the ENTIRE memory/IO space was 64k bytes, every byte was sacred, every byte was great, and if a byte was wasted?.

--
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington



From silent700 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 24 01:37:51 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 01:37:51 -0600
Subject: Z-letter collection
In-Reply-To: <54E96D3E.3030305@sydex.com>
References: <54E96D3E.3030305@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SHVk4E1av4DbfX9WjN7ib3Soes3sCDkLWXVSrPgBHAfcQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 11:46 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> Whilst digging through the detritus of the last 20+ years, I realized that I
> had copies of Dave McGlone's Z-Letter, issues 1-40 (which is pretty close,
> IIRC to the lot).
>
> Does anyone scan and archive these things for public access?  If so, I'll
> gladly send them along for such treatment.

If no one has stepped up yet, I can take on this job.  I found only
the first five issues scanned here:

http://www.retroarchive.org/docs/magazines/z-letter/

> I've also got a dozen issues or so of the TCJ (The Computer Journal) from
> 1994-95.  Useful or recycle fodder?

These may be online already here.  Maybe you can compare your stack to
these titles:

http://www.classiccmp.org/cpmarchives/cpm/Library/Magazines/TCJ/

-j

From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Feb 24 03:25:12 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 10:25:12 +0100
Subject: old keyboards wanted
In-Reply-To: <EC52C82B-D538-4CE7-9F8C-E200260CCB3F@gmail.com>
References: <004f01d04f73$d76c3290$864497b0$@com>
 <20150223142532.GA32222@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAPi4v45vNVQ=22sUBAi_+U3ozGhQkTcPRufyVsnKqs-MZeg3cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC52C82B-D538-4CE7-9F8C-E200260CCB3F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEvpCaC+c3=N54uBfG25kpr3coU7kZiSrQdedKT7JuaCw@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 February 2015 at 21:53, Ian Finder <ian.finder at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm having some pain finding an Apollo keyboard and mouse. There is one on eBay listed by recycledgoods but the price seems excessive. :(


I believe I sold one during great great clear-out before leaving the
UK for the Czech Republic.

I think it went for about ?1 on eBay. :-(

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Feb 24 08:50:43 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 06:50:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Z-letter collection
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SHVk4E1av4DbfX9WjN7ib3Soes3sCDkLWXVSrPgBHAfcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E96D3E.3030305@sydex.com>
 <CAEfH1SHVk4E1av4DbfX9WjN7ib3Soes3sCDkLWXVSrPgBHAfcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502240648120.19684@deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 24 Feb 2015, Jason T wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 11:46 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> Whilst digging through the detritus of the last 20+ years, I realized that I
>> had copies of Dave McGlone's Z-Letter, issues 1-40 (which is pretty close,
>> IIRC to the lot).
>>
>> Does anyone scan and archive these things for public access?  If so, I'll
>> gladly send them along for such treatment.
>
> If no one has stepped up yet, I can take on this job.  I found only
> the first five issues scanned here:
>
> http://www.retroarchive.org/docs/magazines/z-letter/
>
Chuck is sending the Z-Letter and TCJ issues to me and I'll get them 
online - both on retroarchive.org and archive.org.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Tue Feb 24 10:14:18 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 10:14:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <20150223233145.3B1DA18C10F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150223233145.3B1DA18C10F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502240952590.20965@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Mon, 23 Feb 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:

>    > From: Tothwolf
>
>    > I've seen pushback from some people in the vintage computing community
>    > to wholesale replacement of aluminum electrolytics which are long past
>    > their life expectancy and I just don't get it.
>
> Well, notice you didn't cause a big debate on the topic to break out 
> here, as we often get on some of these things (e.g. crimping versus 
> soldering, etc).
>
> My _guess_ is that vintage computer people aren't very 'religious' about 
> it, and to the extent that they _don't_ do it, it's as much because they 
> don't have the parts on hand (or the ability to find them easily), plus 
> the work involved, as anything else.

You've missed many past debates. Some would put a typical Emacs vs vi 
discussion to shame ;)

> For those of us who are basically software people (or even pure 
> digital), this stuff can be a little daunting - not necessarily because 
> it's actually hard, it's just out of our comfort zone. I myself am 
> certainly daunted by the concept of replacing every electrolytic in all 
> the power supplies of all the vintage -11's I've got... (And I don't 
> want to even think about all the filter caps on all the boards! :-)
>
> Maybe you (or someone) should offer a service... I'd sign up! :-)

I don't think taking on additional projects would be a very good idea for 
me anytime in the near future. The hard part however, really is cross 
referencing older parts to modern replacements. I can help find part 
numbers for modern parts using my notes from past projects though. With 
aluminum electrolytics, I've kept my notes each time I've sourced 
replacements in recent years and have quite a lot of information on hand 
(although not in an easily parsable format).

From jws at jwsss.com  Tue Feb 24 11:08:28 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 09:08:28 -0800
Subject: Z-letter collection
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502240648120.19684@deltasoft.com>
References: <54E96D3E.3030305@sydex.com>
 <CAEfH1SHVk4E1av4DbfX9WjN7ib3Soes3sCDkLWXVSrPgBHAfcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502240648120.19684@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <54ECB00C.70303@jwsss.com>


On 2/24/2015 6:50 AM, geneb wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015, Jason T wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 11:46 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>>> Whilst digging through the detritus of the last 20+ years, I 
>>> realized that I
>>> had copies of Dave McGlone's Z-Letter, issues 1-40 (which is pretty 
>>> close,
>>> IIRC to the lot).
>>>
>>> Does anyone scan and archive these things for public access? If so, 
>>> I'll
>>> gladly send them along for such treatment.
>>
>> If no one has stepped up yet, I can take on this job.  I found only
>> the first five issues scanned here:
>>
>> http://www.retroarchive.org/docs/magazines/z-letter/
>>
> Chuck is sending the Z-Letter and TCJ issues to me and I'll get them 
> online - both on retroarchive.org and archive.org.
>
> g.
>
Interesting newsletter.  Wonder if the person @ 711 Chatsworth Place in 
San Jose knows their address will be all over this, and if that is still 
the Editor's house (or Joe Wrights?).

The index PDF link is bad on the web page, FWIW, may be a work in 
progress, I realize.

thanks
Jim


From js at cimmeri.com  Tue Feb 24 11:12:14 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 12:12:14 -0500
Subject: cap replacement policies / was Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <D3BF1DBB-83DA-472B-BD24-E047174DE1FE@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <20150223233145.3B1DA18C10F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <D3BF1DBB-83DA-472B-BD24-E047174DE1FE@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54ECB0EE.1040701@cimmeri.com>



On 2/23/2015 11:58 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>   For solid-state consumer equipment 
> like transistor radios, caps from the 
> 1960s can be a problem but even then 
> not inherently so. For solid-state 
> digital equipment: I don't think I've 
> ever done a blanket replacement of 
> caps. The vast majority of my many 
> dozens to hundreds of calculators, 
> digital test equipment, computers, 
> etc., most of which date from the 
> 1960s and 1970s, are running with all 
> their original caps - including 
> specifically electrolytic filter caps.
My experience is different.  1940's 
through 1960's -- I replace all AECs 
because most are either bad or too far 
on their way out.    1970's-1980's, 
depends on too many variables to give 
simplistic rules, but I will test and 
reform all AECs.  Some are found to be 
bad, but most are still ok -- again, 
depending on many factors.   1990's 
onwards, I don't worry about as there's 
rarely a failure (unless of those bad 
Chinese variety).




> I have rarely, if ever, reformed a 
> capacitor for a solid-state item.
** I do, all the time, as per above.

> Keeping in mind that a mildly leaky 
> cap which could benefit from reforming 
> will reform during normal operation.
** I don't concur with this statement 
because the charge rate is too high.  
Countless times, there's been caps I 
couldn't reform with too high a charge 
rate, but when it was slowed down, they 
came back around.   Many factors are at 
play.. amount of leakiness to begin 
with, level of operational voltage vs. 
cap's rated voltage, etc.    BUT, AECs 
*do* benefit from and *do* require 
periodic use... which keeps them from 
losing their oxide layer to a certain 
degree (within the circuit's applied 
voltage range).


> (Also, those big screw-terminal filter 
> caps from the linear-reg days were 
> called "computer grade" for a reason.) 
> So, in relation to computers and 
> solid-state digital, I don't 
> understand why people get all 
> concerned about caps.
** Because they go bad... even those big 
computer grade ones.  I've got a whole 
bucket here full of them.


> In my experience, blanket replacement 
> and reforming just hasn't been warranted.
** Here, agreed.... *blanket* 
replacement isn't.. but they should all 
be checked.


>> For those of us who are basically software people (or even pure digital),
>> this stuff can be a little daunting - not necessarily because it's actually
>> hard, it's just out of our comfort zone. I myself am certainly daunted by the
>> concept of replacing every electrolytic in all the power supplies of all the
>> vintage -11's I've got... (And I don't want to even think about all the filter
>> caps on all the boards! :-)
>
>
> Early (1970s era) switch-mode power supplies of significant capacity are a category one might be a little leery or cautious around, as the design and componentry may not always have been up to the task, as they hadn't benefitted from a couple of decades of experience and targetting.
>
> Perhaps more owners of DEC equipment from that era could add real-world experiences.

** 1980's DEC stuff still seems to be 
OK, although I frequently find bad caps 
in the 3rd party power supplies like 
those from Astec (eg. BA123, BA23)... 
but ALL the AECs benefit from reforming 
-- you can see right then and there how 
they do, how they perform before and 
after.   And you can tell whether a cap 
does or not by how it RESPONDS during 
the reforming process.     1970's DEC 
PSUs like for an 11/34 also have bad 
caps in them by now.... I just rebuilt 6 
modules, and all had at least one bad 
AEC...    now, mind you, most not to the 
point where the PSU had actually failed 
completely, but to where it *would* have.

I don't replace caps but reform them if 
their performance during the reforming 
process indicates that they still have 
plenty of life left in them.   I reform 
instead of replace when I can in order 
to save money, and because going through 
the process of finding the right sizes 
and right models is a real major pain in 
the ass.

- J.





From evan at snarc.net  Tue Feb 24 11:17:51 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 12:17:51 -0500
Subject: PDP-8, PDP-8er, PDP-8est @ VCF East
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUzJ1oFcakQZ86VauppMjhU+Pp3xuYUSQ2WJcdKFqPx+KA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54A0BD29.2090608@snarc.net> <54EA24C7.40007@snarc.net>
 <54EB963D.3050005@snarc.net>
 <CAKtEYUx45j_v0FqhRuM8ysLuXXpwsQdSN_Nz6BuKesebfSup6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1502231637200.53737@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <CAKtEYUzJ1oFcakQZ86VauppMjhU+Pp3xuYUSQ2WJcdKFqPx+KA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54ECB23F.4020902@snarc.net>

Seven PDP-8 exhibits now.  :)

Normally we spread out the exhibits rather than grouping them together, 
so that visitors see a little bit of everything. But I think this calls 
for a PDP-8 Pavilion at the show!

From TaylorB at dnr.sc.gov  Tue Feb 24 10:37:25 2015
From: TaylorB at dnr.sc.gov (Barbara E. Taylor)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 11:37:25 -0500
Subject: Help with old RS/1 files?
Message-ID: <0E3714A8DB10454894B2A69D050B39621677EDD250@Mx1>


I would be grateful for advice on files generated by RS/1, an old BBN software product, about a dozen years ago on a Sun system running Unix.

I don't need to use the software, just to read the contents of a few files.  It doesn't matter if the format's a mess.  If I can see the numbers, I can work out how to extract the information.

From silent700 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 24 12:29:08 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 12:29:08 -0600
Subject: Z-letter collection
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502240648120.19684@deltasoft.com>
References: <54E96D3E.3030305@sydex.com>
 <CAEfH1SHVk4E1av4DbfX9WjN7ib3Soes3sCDkLWXVSrPgBHAfcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502240648120.19684@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SHrbqPnVkt5qZHh5NhZo3L3WXZcyUJ014c14OyFtKaTeg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 8:50 AM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
> Chuck is sending the Z-Letter and TCJ issues to me and I'll get them online
> - both on retroarchive.org and archive.org.

Great!  Thanks, Gene.

j

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Tue Feb 24 12:34:08 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 12:34:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: cap replacement policies / was Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <D3BF1DBB-83DA-472B-BD24-E047174DE1FE@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <20150223233145.3B1DA18C10F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <D3BF1DBB-83DA-472B-BD24-E047174DE1FE@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1502241100550.20965@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Mon, 23 Feb 2015, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>>> From: Tothwolf
>
>>> I've seen pushback from some people in the vintage computing community 
>>> to wholesale replacement of aluminum electrolytics which are long past 
>>> their life expectancy and I just don't get it.

> For solid-state digital equipment: I don't think I've ever done a 
> blanket replacement of caps. The vast majority of my many dozens to 
> hundreds of calculators, digital test equipment, computers, etc., most 
> of which date from the 1960s and 1970s, are running with all their 
> original caps - including specifically electrolytic filter caps. I have 
> rarely, if ever, reformed a capacitor for a solid-state item. Keeping in 
> mind that a mildly leaky cap which could benefit from reforming will 
> reform during normal operation. (Also, those big screw-terminal filter 
> caps from the linear-reg days were called "computer grade" for a 
> reason.)
>
> So, in relation to computers and solid-state digital, I don't understand 
> why people get all concerned about caps. In my experience, blanket 
> replacement and reforming just hasn't been warranted.
>
> There are always exceptions - I well understand why the PDP-1 
> restoration team would choose to be careful with the large filter caps 
> there - age, historic significance, large amounts of energy involved. If 
> you're doing this as a business such as the mentioned arcade-machine 
> refurbishment, someone might choose to do blanket replacement as a 
> pragmatic measure of insurance to help avoid call-backs, etc.

To be clear, I'm not in the business of arcade machine refurbishment, 
however I know many people who are. When these machines are used in an 
arcade environment, they are often powered on 24/7/365, not really unlike 
a vintage computer coming out of a production environment (and they also 
suffer from the same sort of TTL logic chip failures we've discussed here 
on classiccmp). More often than not, when a "vintage" 80s/90s coin-op 
machine is being refurbished or having extensive maintenance done, all of 
the electrolytics in the monitor chassis and PSU (linear or switchmode) 
get replaced as a maintenance item. Some of those machines later end up 
back in the field earning revenue for operators, but a large portion of 
them end up resold to individuals too.

> Blanket replacement (and even reforming) have an element of 
> self-perpetuating myth to them, some people do it and recommend it, but 
> instances of it being done don't necessarily add to a body of evidence 
> as to whether it actually mattered.
>
> Some of it is a matter of personal preference/values: for example some 
> people are happy to do a blanket replacement on the probability of it 
> encompassing a fault, others (such as myself) prefer to diagnose a fault 
> down to the individual component level.

When you look at the construction and chemistry of aluminum electrolytics, 
the fact that they are as reliable as they are is quite amazing. The 
typical part is rated for 2000 hours at either 85C or 105C (even less for 
some older or specialty parts), at its maximum ripple current. The life of 
the part also doubles for every 10C below its rated temperature.

Say a nearly ubiquitous 85C part is used at very reasonable 40C (104F). 
That 2000 hour rated part then has an estimated lifespan of 48,000 hours 
at its maximum ripple current (more often than not, parts are not operated 
at anywhere near their maximum ripple current, so the expected life is 
going to be even longer). Just for simplicity, say the part is operated at 
a low enough ripple current where that 2000 hour part is then good for 
100,000 hours (which is of course being /very/ generous). That still only 
works out to about 11.5 years of expected service life. Larger more modern 
or high temperature rated parts may have a rated life of 3000 or 4000 
hours, but older parts made in the 80s and 90s are still largely going to 
be in that 2000 hour ballpark.

It is 2015, so just going with 2015 - 12 = 2003, I'd say the typical 
aluminum electrolytic operated at an average temperature present in a 
monitor, switch mode PSU, etc (higher than 40C) from the 1980s or 1990s 
which has seen daily or regular use is /probably/ going to be at or near 
its rated life expectancy.

Since a picture is worth a 1000 words, here are some photos of actual 
failed computer gear that was made in the 1990s. This gear was used by me 
in a home environment so it wasn't even subjected to the sort of heavy 
use/abuse found in a commercial setting.

This one is a photo of a 12V/5V DC power supply from an external SCSI 
drive enclosure made in 1992 where the Nippon Chemi-Con KMF series 
capacitors are leaking their electrolyte out of bottom around the rubber 
end seals:

http://strudel.ignorelist [dot] com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/Electrolytic_Capacitors/autec_powersupply.jpg

Here are the parts I'll be using when I rebuild it:

http://strudel.ignorelist [dot] com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/Electrolytic_Capacitors/autec_powersupply_parts.jpg

This is a photo of the board from a USRobotics Courier V.Everything modem. 
The three small radial Nichicon PL series capacitors are leaking 
electrolyte out the bottom around the end seals. Look near the empty U21 
location and you can see corrosion just beginning to form:

http://strudel.ignorelist [dot] com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/Electrolytic_Capacitors/usr_courier_veverything.jpg

The main filter capacitors are also out of spec, and the modem's speaker 
emits a constant digital "hiss" sound (which is an extremely common fault 
with these modems since the original capacitors run moderately hot due to 
passive cooling).

You'll also notice USR used 4 horizontal chip-type aluminum electrolytics 
on this particular board (there are several versions of these modem boards 
which use slightly different parts). Those particular chip-type 
electrolytics are no longer manufactured, and since those type are also 
known to be problematic and eventually leak, they will be replaced with 
common radial types stuck down to the board.

These are the replacement parts:

http://strudel.ignorelist [dot] com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/Electrolytic_Capacitors/usr_courier_veverything_parts.jpg

This particular modem was one of the best ever made, but every single one 
that I own (I have at least 4) has the same problem with the main filter 
capacitors being out of spec causing hiss from the speaker and the smaller 
6.3mm Nichicon PL series parts beginning to leak electrolyte.

These are just two out of about 250-300 projects currently in my queue 
(each has a parts bag just like the two I photographed). Both of these two 
are pre-"capacitor plague" with all the problems starting around 2000-2001 
with the cheaply made ultra-low ESR parts swelling up and popping their 
top vents.

-This- is one of the reasons why I'm for replacement of these sort of 
aluminum electrolytics as preventative maintenance in older gear. You 
wouldn't have expected either to fail, but they did. How often are you 
going to pop the top on something like an external modem and inspect, let 
alone test the electrolytics?

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Tue Feb 24 12:35:58 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 18:35:58 +0000
Subject: cap replacement policies / was Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault
In-Reply-To: <54ECB0EE.1040701@cimmeri.com>
References: <20150223233145.3B1DA18C10F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <D3BF1DBB-83DA-472B-BD24-E047174DE1FE@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54ECB0EE.1040701@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <54ECC48E.4050707@btinternet.com>

I was working for DEC from 1973 onwards. I am mostly familiar with the 
manufacture of the VT and LA terminals.
I think they tested all of the active devices and batch tested the 
passives.

Once assembled the individual boards were given a resistive test (power 
off) before a full power up diagnostic test.
Failures went to manual rework and rejoined the queue at the resistive 
stage.
Third party and DEC branded (but subcontractor built) items where 100% 
tested on load.

In a lot of VT terminals the tube and its drive electronics (Mainly Ball 
Bros manufactured)  were tested and rejects went
back whence they came.

All of this meant the vast majority of terminals came alive on switch 
on.  But that wasn't the end of it.
With systems shipping world wide the cost of warranty and having the 
right people and parts in the right place  was a big issue.
They found out that the field failure rate was linked to the factory 
burn in time failure rate.
So by tweaking the burn in time they could control the field failure rate.

Yes DEC made reliable systems because it cost them less in the end.



On 24/02/2015 17:12, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
>
>
> On 2/23/2015 11:58 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>>   For solid-state consumer equipment like transistor radios, caps 
>> from the 1960s can be a problem but even then not inherently so. For 
>> solid-state digital equipment: I don't think I've ever done a blanket 
>> replacement of caps. The vast majority of my many dozens to hundreds 
>> of calculators, digital test equipment, computers, etc., most of 
>> which date from the 1960s and 1970s, are running with all their 
>> original caps - including specifically electrolytic filter caps.
> My experience is different.  1940's through 1960's -- I replace all 
> AECs because most are either bad or too far on their way out.    
> 1970's-1980's, depends on too many variables to give simplistic rules, 
> but I will test and reform all AECs.  Some are found to be bad, but 
> most are still ok -- again, depending on many factors.   1990's 
> onwards, I don't worry about as there's rarely a failure (unless of 
> those bad Chinese variety).
>
>
>
>
>> I have rarely, if ever, reformed a capacitor for a solid-state item.
> ** I do, all the time, as per above.
>
>> Keeping in mind that a mildly leaky cap which could benefit from 
>> reforming will reform during normal operation.
> ** I don't concur with this statement because the charge rate is too 
> high.  Countless times, there's been caps I couldn't reform with too 
> high a charge rate, but when it was slowed down, they came back 
> around.   Many factors are at play.. amount of leakiness to begin 
> with, level of operational voltage vs. cap's rated voltage, etc.    
> BUT, AECs *do* benefit from and *do* require periodic use... which 
> keeps them from losing their oxide layer to a certain degree (within 
> the circuit's applied voltage range).
>
>
>> (Also, those big screw-terminal filter caps from the linear-reg days 
>> were called "computer grade" for a reason.) So, in relation to 
>> computers and solid-state digital, I don't understand why people get 
>> all concerned about caps.
> ** Because they go bad... even those big computer grade ones. I've got 
> a whole bucket here full of them.
>
>
>> In my experience, blanket replacement and reforming just hasn't been 
>> warranted.
> ** Here, agreed.... *blanket* replacement isn't.. but they should all 
> be checked.
>
>
>>> For those of us who are basically software people (or even pure 
>>> digital),
>>> this stuff can be a little daunting - not necessarily because it's 
>>> actually
>>> hard, it's just out of our comfort zone. I myself am certainly 
>>> daunted by the
>>> concept of replacing every electrolytic in all the power supplies of 
>>> all the
>>> vintage -11's I've got... (And I don't want to even think about all 
>>> the filter
>>> caps on all the boards! :-)
>>
>>
>> Early (1970s era) switch-mode power supplies of significant capacity 
>> are a category one might be a little leery or cautious around, as the 
>> design and componentry may not always have been up to the task, as 
>> they hadn't benefitted from a couple of decades of experience and 
>> targetting.
>>
>> Perhaps more owners of DEC equipment from that era could add 
>> real-world experiences.
>
> ** 1980's DEC stuff still seems to be OK, although I frequently find 
> bad caps in the 3rd party power supplies like those from Astec (eg. 
> BA123, BA23)... but ALL the AECs benefit from reforming -- you can see 
> right then and there how they do, how they perform before and after.   
> And you can tell whether a cap does or not by how it RESPONDS during 
> the reforming process.     1970's DEC PSUs like for an 11/34 also have 
> bad caps in them by now.... I just rebuilt 6 modules, and all had at 
> least one bad AEC...    now, mind you, most not to the point where the 
> PSU had actually failed completely, but to where it *would* have.
>
> I don't replace caps but reform them if their performance during the 
> reforming process indicates that they still have plenty of life left 
> in them.   I reform instead of replace when I can in order to save 
> money, and because going through the process of finding the right 
> sizes and right models is a real major pain in the ass.
>
> - J.
>
>
>
>


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Feb 24 12:36:32 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 10:36:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Z-letter collection
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SHrbqPnVkt5qZHh5NhZo3L3WXZcyUJ014c14OyFtKaTeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E96D3E.3030305@sydex.com>
 <CAEfH1SHVk4E1av4DbfX9WjN7ib3Soes3sCDkLWXVSrPgBHAfcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502240648120.19684@deltasoft.com>
 <CAEfH1SHrbqPnVkt5qZHh5NhZo3L3WXZcyUJ014c14OyFtKaTeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1502241036030.24212@deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 24 Feb 2015, Jason T wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 8:50 AM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>> Chuck is sending the Z-Letter and TCJ issues to me and I'll get them online
>> - both on retroarchive.org and archive.org.
>
> Great!  Thanks, Gene.

No problem. :)  I just wish I had more time to dedicate to this kind of 
thing.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Tue Feb 24 13:35:13 2015
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 20:35:13 +0100
Subject: DEC papertape 5x5 font ?
Message-ID: <54ECD271.2050006@bluewin.ch>

Anyone has the DEC font, as used to mark their papertapes, ready in machine readable format  ? ( C include file preferred )
The 8x6 format I use now just does not have the right look to it.

Yep, I am recreating some of those papertapes...

Jos

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Tue Feb 24 16:58:10 2015
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 14:58:10 -0800
Subject: Seeking Apollo keyboard and mouse (DN3000)
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWDE+aQ+Fuc4iMPyWSnnfa7ef7+k8CjZ2Eyna=NemOqB8w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi folks,

I am seeking an Apollo Keyboard and Mouse to get my DN/3000 all kitted out.
There is a set on ebay which I can use as a last resort, but the asking
price is a bit steep from recycledgoods.

If anyone has a pair available, please let me know. Not opposed to paying
or trading for them, but I've grown to dislike dealing with ebay.

If anyone has any cool ideas for software to run on it, that would also be
appreciated! :)

Thanks,

- Ian

From chrise at pobox.com  Tue Feb 24 20:28:09 2015
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 20:28:09 -0600
Subject: Patching vs. new code (was Re: Pascal not considered harmful)
In-Reply-To: <000001d04ffa$162cd6c0$42868440$@comcast.net>
References: <CAKtEJ03g5ufCCP-MLsZTHojpmDN6A6_OkSLFMGLBDx0vqhY9WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d04ffa$162cd6c0$42868440$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20150225022809.GC638@n0jcf.net>

On Monday (02/23/2015 at 10:21PM -0800), Michael Holley wrote:
> In 1982 I was working at Data I/O, the PROM programmer company. Everything was written in assembler for the 6800. We had a cross assembler that ran on a PDP11, it was much faster than the Motorola EXORciser that used 8 inch floppy disks. We later updated to a VAX. On one project we had a firm code limit of 16K bytes, every week or so we would have to hand optimize our assembly language so we could keep adding the necessary features. We had about 20 bytes open when we were done.
> 
> I recall that the cross assembler was from a company named BSO.

Yes.  Boston Systems Office...  which later became BSO/Tasking I believe
and now just "Tasking",

http://www.tasking.com/about/

They had a whole suite of cross-assemblers that ran on DEC hosts.
I used 6800, 6502 and 8080 versions running on a DECSYSTEM-20 at 3M
around 1979, 1980.

Of course I was using my Dad's login and dialing into the machine over
300 baud modem from my bedroom but they were awesome development tools
compared to locally hosted stuff.

I also used a 6800 cross-assembler earlier, around '76 or '77 running on
a CDC network called CyberNet.  I believe these were actually Motorola
developed cross-development tools hosted on CyberNet, which was a for-pay
timesharing network with I think, world-wide access at the time.

Still, it was pretty cool to be able to edit, assemble, load and run
all your code right on your own machine even if it took forever ;-)

Does anyone have copies of any of the BSO cross-assemblers for any DEC
platforms that we might be able to run in SIMH?

Chris

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian S. King
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2015 9:17 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Patching vs. new code (was Re: Pascal not considered harmful)
> 
> 
> My first (paid) programming job was in 6800 assembler, using the Motorola EXORCISER system.  It took hours (as in a major part of a day, longer than the work day) to reassemble the entire code base, so we would patch the program in the PROM programmer.  We would, of course, back port the changes in symbolic assembler to the source, and every few days just take the downtime hit to rebuild the code base.  Keep in mind that this was natively hosted on a 6800 system.
> 
> Another interesting tidbit: its simple filesystem did not segment files and reuse blocks, so you had to purge old versions of files, preferably before a dozen or so files were lined up after it.  In that case, it would tie up the system for way too long while an old file was purged and all the new files were packed into the recovered space, block by block.  It was barely a step above magtape.
> 
> One other note: there was a bug in certain mask sets that required a NOP before you could set the interrupt mask.  Since the ENTIRE memory/IO space was 64k bytes, every byte was sacred, every byte was great, and if a byte was wasted?.
> 
> --
> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
> Ph.D. Candidate
> The Information School
> University of Washington
> 

-- 
Chris Elmquist

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 24 21:02:11 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:02:11 -0800
Subject: Patching vs. new code (was Re: Pascal not considered harmful)
In-Reply-To: <20150225022809.GC638@n0jcf.net>
References: <CAKtEJ03g5ufCCP-MLsZTHojpmDN6A6_OkSLFMGLBDx0vqhY9WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d04ffa$162cd6c0$42868440$@comcast.net>
 <20150225022809.GC638@n0jcf.net>
Message-ID: <54ED3B33.8020008@sydex.com>

On 02/24/2015 06:28 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote:

> I also used a 6800 cross-assembler earlier, around '76 or '77 running on
> a CDC network called CyberNet.  I believe these were actually Motorola
> developed cross-development tools hosted on CyberNet, which was a for-pay
> timesharing network with I think, world-wide access at the time.

I'm not certain, but I think CyberNet was an outgrowth of the CDC vs IBM 
settlement that got CDC Service Bureau Corp.

My first 8080 assembler ran on a 6000, written in (gasp) FORTRAN. Since 
I was with CDC SVLOPS, I just dialed in from home.  I used the guts from 
a surplus Novation 300 bps modem, modded to be able to switch between 
answer and originate tones.  When I wasn't dialing out, I used an 
inexpensive GE audio cassette recorder for storage with the same modem 
(I had only one serial port on the MITS box).

The assembler was based on one I that wrote for the 8008, but never got 
around to using (the MITS 8800 was just too good to pass up).

--Chuck




From j at ckrubin.us  Tue Feb 24 22:23:03 2015
From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 04:23:03 +0000
Subject: OMSI and UW FOCAL help
Message-ID: <DM2PR0501MB166484989FA1F7C53A4B1612D2170@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>

DEC released FOCAL-8 (FOrmula CALculator) in 1969 as a tool for numeric problem solving on the PDP "Family of 8" machines. The language allowed extension and at least two additional versions were made available to the public.

OMSI-P/S8 FOCAL is available of Dave Gesswein's site along with an HTML version of the online help as documentation. The manual for Jim van Zee's University of Washington Focal (UWF) is on bitsavers and also as FOCAL8-301 from DECUS.

I'm trying to find the missing pieces - an OMSI manual and UWF source and binaries.

Can anybody help?

Thanks,
Jack

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Feb 24 14:27:40 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 12:27:40 -0800
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
In-Reply-To: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net>
References: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwK=f2EbuAB1Bm9C6AGfNQTDX4tXARpMFg3UU=aAB7gtyA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:03 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4 at verizon.net> wrote:
> I want to sell a couple of MicroVaxes that I had installed the hobbyist
> OpenVMS software on quite some time ago.
>
> The OpenVMS Hobbyist website says I must delete the license PAKS before I
> transfer the hardware to someone else.
>
> How do you actually do this?

Assuming you can still boot the system and log in to a command prompt,
this should do the trick:

$ LICENSE DELETE *

For reference, see

OpenVMS License Management Utility Manual
Order Number: AA?PVXUF?TK
April 2001
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/documentation/pdf/ovms_73_lmu.pdf

From ak6dn at mindspring.com  Tue Feb 24 15:07:39 2015
From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 13:07:39 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
Message-ID: <30445695.1424812060098.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net>



-----Original Message-----
>From: Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4 at verizon.net>
>Sent: Feb 24, 2015 12:03 PM
>To: General at classiccmp.org, Discussion at classiccmp.org, On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
>Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
>
>I want to sell a couple of MicroVaxes that I had installed the hobbyist 
>OpenVMS software on quite some time ago.
>
>The OpenVMS Hobbyist website says I must delete the license PAKS before 
>I transfer the hardware to someone else.
>
>How do you actually do this?

$ LICENSE DELETE * /ALL


From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net  Tue Feb 24 14:03:08 2015
From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:03:08 -0500
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
Message-ID: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net>

I want to sell a couple of MicroVaxes that I had installed the hobbyist 
OpenVMS software on quite some time ago.

The OpenVMS Hobbyist website says I must delete the license PAKS before 
I transfer the hardware to someone else.

How do you actually do this?

From mtapley at swri.edu  Tue Feb 24 14:07:46 2015
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 20:07:46 +0000
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
In-Reply-To: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net>
References: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <55A416CE-D99F-40BC-9A5F-6BC95B8E4138@swri.edu>

Do they not expire after a year?

On Feb 24, 2015, at 2:03 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4 at verizon.net> wrote:

> I want to sell a couple of MicroVaxes that I had installed the hobbyist OpenVMS software on quite some time ago.
> 
> The OpenVMS Hobbyist website says I must delete the license PAKS before I transfer the hardware to someone else.
> 
> How do you actually do this?


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Tue Feb 24 14:09:10 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 20:09:10 +0000 (WET)
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:03:08 -0500"
 <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <01PIWTLXEDXW0004E1@beyondthepale.ie>

Douglas Taylor wrote:
>
>I want to sell a couple of MicroVaxes that I had installed the hobbyist 
>OpenVMS software on quite some time ago.
>
>The OpenVMS Hobbyist website says I must delete the license PAKS before 
>I transfer the hardware to someone else.
>
>How do you actually do this?
>

Use:

$ LICENSE LIST 

to find them and use:

$ LICENSE DELETE

to delete them.  For more details if required:

$ HELP LICENSE

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From jason at smbfc.net  Tue Feb 24 15:42:22 2015
From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:42:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
In-Reply-To: <55A416CE-D99F-40BC-9A5F-6BC95B8E4138@swri.edu>
References: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net>
 <55A416CE-D99F-40BC-9A5F-6BC95B8E4138@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.11.1502242136450.13997@yv244-27.zrzoref.yvabqr.pbz>

Yes, hobbyist PAKs expire 1 year after issuance.  I wouldn't hesitate to 
pass on a VMS system with expired PAKs, it's practically a brick until you 
load some valid PAKs.

If you're really concerned about it, LICENSE DELETE * would probably work, 
but I don't have my VMS system handy to check the help file on the LICENSE 
command.

--Jason

On Tue, 24 Feb 2015, Tapley, Mark wrote:

> Do they not expire after a year?
>
> On Feb 24, 2015, at 2:03 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> I want to sell a couple of MicroVaxes that I had installed the hobbyist OpenVMS software on quite some time ago.
>>
>> The OpenVMS Hobbyist website says I must delete the license PAKS before I transfer the hardware to someone else.
>>
>> How do you actually do this?
>
>

From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca  Tue Feb 24 15:49:02 2015
From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 14:49:02 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
In-Reply-To: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1502241448020.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>

On Tue, 24 Feb 2015, Douglas Taylor wrote:

> The OpenVMS Hobbyist website says I must delete the license PAKS before
> I transfer the hardware to someone else.
>
> How do you actually do this?

For example:

    $ license delete vms-user /authorization=A0406-CAMPUSWIDE-2063

or maybe

    $ license delete /all

If you must remove them all.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father
   Athabasca University                            :  but you have to earn
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of 'daddy'"
   ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston


From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca  Tue Feb 24 15:57:38 2015
From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 14:57:38 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1502241452190.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>

I said:

    $ license delete /all

but it should be:

    $ license delete vms-user /all

because you cannot delete them all so easily.  There is also an interactive
utility:

	sys$update:vmslicense.com

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father
   Athabasca University                            :  but you have to earn
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of 'daddy'"
   ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston



From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net  Tue Feb 24 16:06:41 2015
From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 17:06:41 -0500
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
In-Reply-To: <55A416CE-D99F-40BC-9A5F-6BC95B8E4138@swri.edu>
References: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net>
 <55A416CE-D99F-40BC-9A5F-6BC95B8E4138@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <54ECF5F1.6080408@verizon.net>

Yes, they expired long ago.  However, if you tell the computer the wrong 
date the licenses are accepted.

On 2/24/2015 3:07 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote:
> Do they not expire after a year?
>
> On Feb 24, 2015, at 2:03 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> I want to sell a couple of MicroVaxes that I had installed the hobbyist OpenVMS software on quite some time ago.
>>
>> The OpenVMS Hobbyist website says I must delete the license PAKS before I transfer the hardware to someone else.
>>
>> How do you actually do this?
>


From simski at dds.nl  Tue Feb 24 17:02:17 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 00:02:17 +0100
Subject: DEC papertape 5x5 font ?
In-Reply-To: <54ECD271.2050006@bluewin.ch>
References: <54ECD271.2050006@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <54ED02F9.60502@dds.nl>

take a look at https://github.com/Hack42/Punchconverter

it is not a direct copy, but it can be adapted to do the work. We have 
several punchtape devices in our collection at hack42 not speaking 
ascii, so a translator is very handy. I use our GNT-4601 to actually 
punch the tapes and the filename is printed up front in a human readable 
font

On 24-02-15 20:35, Jos Dreesen wrote:
> Anyone has the DEC font, as used to mark their papertapes, ready in
> machine readable format  ? ( C include file preferred )
> The 8x6 format I use now just does not have the right look to it.
>
> Yep, I am recreating some of those papertapes...
>
> Jos
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From classiccmp at crash.com  Tue Feb 24 17:44:14 2015
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:44:14 -0800
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
In-Reply-To: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net>
References: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <54ED0CCE.4040905@crash.com>

On 02/24/2015 12:03 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote:
>
> I want to sell a couple of MicroVaxes that I had installed the
> hobbyist OpenVMS software on quite some time ago.

If the buyers aren't already aware, consider letting them know that they
can participate in the Hobbyist program by joining DECUServe and
requesting licenses under the program. (Yes, DECUServe.org has been back
online for a month or so, and I just made sure it's still up.)

Quoting the site:

    To register for DECUServe just Telnet to decuserve.org
    <telnet://decuserve.decus.org>, use username *REGISTRATION*, and
    follow the bouncing ball...

And to the best of my knowledge, this is still the best choice of where
to register for the Hobbyist program after you get your membership number:

    http://plato.ccsscorp.com/hobbyist_registration.php
    <http://plato.ccsscorp.com/hobbyist_registration.php3>


Good luck with your sales, Doug.

--S.


From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net  Tue Feb 24 19:30:17 2015
From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 20:30:17 -0500
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1502241452190.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1502241452190.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
Message-ID: <54ED25A9.1080005@verizon.net>

Thanks to all that replied, I am very rusty with VMS.

On 2/24/2015 4:57 PM, Richard Loken wrote:
> I said:
>
>      $ license delete /all
>
> but it should be:
>
>      $ license delete vms-user /all
>
> because you cannot delete them all so easily.  There is also an interactive
> utility:
>
> 	sys$update:vmslicense.com
>


From steemer at dslextreme.com  Tue Feb 24 23:39:04 2015
From: steemer at dslextreme.com (sandy hamlet)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:39:04 -0800
Subject: Lexitron Videotype
In-Reply-To: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>

I worked at Lexitron in the early seventies.

The system I worked on was probably an earlier version as it didn't
look as modern as the one in the pictures.
I do remember the huge power supply to power all of the circuit boards
which were loaded with discrete chips like: and, or, nand, and nor
gates.
Ther printer was an IBM electric typewriter with a bank of solenoids
mounted above the keyboard.
No microprocessors here!
I'LL search my memorybanks to see if I can remember anything else.




On 2/22/15, Simon Claessen <simski at dds.nl> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I mailed about this last year, and got no response, so here again:
>
> I'm looking for info on this very strange terminal/wordprocessor from
> the early seventies:
>
> http://aheckofa.com/FoolMeOnce/MiscScans/EarlyVideoWP400.png
> https://hack42.nl/gallery/v/Museum/DSCF7634.JPG.html
> http://aheckofa.com/FoolMeOnce/MiscScans/Lexitron500.png
>
> as you see, there is not much info on the web about this very beautiful,
> yet strange beast.
>
> Unfortunately the picture tube is broken and we are missing the main
> processing unit. It seems that the display used vector graphics as the
> horizontal an vertical are identical in design and the normal raster
> scanning generators are missing. the terminal connected with a 94 pin
> connector to the main unit, being also fed power though this cable.
>
> anyone
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke Groet,
>
> Simon Claessen
> drukknop.nl
>

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Wed Feb 25 02:25:58 2015
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 00:25:58 -0800
Subject: Lexitron Videotype
In-Reply-To: <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>

The universal pictures props dept. has one you might be able to pay a visit to or rent.

> On Feb 24, 2015, at 21:39, sandy hamlet <steemer at dslextreme.com> wrote:
> 
> I worked at Lexitron in the early seventies.
> 
> The system I worked on was probably an earlier version as it didn't
> look as modern as the one in the pictures.
> I do remember the huge power supply to power all of the circuit boards
> which were loaded with discrete chips like: and, or, nand, and nor
> gates.
> Ther printer was an IBM electric typewriter with a bank of solenoids
> mounted above the keyboard.
> No microprocessors here!
> I'LL search my memorybanks to see if I can remember anything else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 2/22/15, Simon Claessen <simski at dds.nl> wrote:
>> Hello all,
>> 
>> I mailed about this last year, and got no response, so here again:
>> 
>> I'm looking for info on this very strange terminal/wordprocessor from
>> the early seventies:
>> 
>> http://aheckofa.com/FoolMeOnce/MiscScans/EarlyVideoWP400.png
>> https://hack42.nl/gallery/v/Museum/DSCF7634.JPG.html
>> http://aheckofa.com/FoolMeOnce/MiscScans/Lexitron500.png
>> 
>> as you see, there is not much info on the web about this very beautiful,
>> yet strange beast.
>> 
>> Unfortunately the picture tube is broken and we are missing the main
>> processing unit. It seems that the display used vector graphics as the
>> horizontal an vertical are identical in design and the normal raster
>> scanning generators are missing. the terminal connected with a 94 pin
>> connector to the main unit, being also fed power though this cable.
>> 
>> anyone
>> 
>> --
>> Met vriendelijke Groet,
>> 
>> Simon Claessen
>> drukknop.nl
>> 

From jim at deitygraveyard.com  Wed Feb 25 02:29:09 2015
From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 03:29:09 -0500
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
In-Reply-To: <54ED0CCE.4040905@crash.com>
References: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net> <54ED0CCE.4040905@crash.com>
Message-ID: <CA+oaVqzytVuQFkDH+pJ0fR-DTqdaORdyka83nZv4bdLzbU66qQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Steven M Jones <classiccmp at crash.com> wrote:
> Quoting the site:
>
>     To register for DECUServe just Telnet to decuserve.org
>     <telnet://decuserve.decus.org>, use username *REGISTRATION*, and
>     follow the bouncing ball...

Best to telnet/ssh to eisner.decus.org. There are still DNS issues
with decuserve.org.

Jim

From slandon110 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 25 12:38:24 2015
From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 13:38:24 -0500
Subject: Michigan Regional Show- TimmyNet Telephone Company Swap & Show. 
 w/ vintage computer display
Message-ID: <54EE16A0.6090700@gmail.com>

Cross Posting from the VOIP list.   For all you telecom lovers and 
telephone lovers.

Be Sure and Come on out to the Michigan Regional Show,  The TimmyNet 
Telephone Company Swap & Show April 11th in beautiful Clare Michigan.   
   Registration is open so get your registration in.  We need all the 
people we can get to make this show happen.
Event is located at the Doherty Hotel in Clare.

We will also be having a small vintage computer display as well. So 
bring some machines with modems and make some noise.  TimmyNet Telco 
will be providing 16 lines of Dialtone for you to play with.

Here is a link to the website and show registration link is on the page
https://timmynetphoneshow.wordpress.com/

From slandon110 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 25 13:22:57 2015
From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 14:22:57 -0500
Subject: FS: 42U IBM Rack- Located in Farwell Michigan
Message-ID: <54EE2111.2050805@gmail.com>

I bought this rack to use to do some telco work,  but its almost too big 
for my needs.  Id like to get $150 out of it.  Its in really nice 
shape.  Needs cage nuts.  Other then that everything is perfect on it.  
Casters and everything.    Has some rails installed as well.   Someone 
come pick it up out of my basement please.

A picture of it is here
https://www.flickr.com/photos/67970316 at N08/16220812147/

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed Feb 25 20:33:46 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 18:33:46 -0800
Subject: von Neumann documentary clip
Message-ID: <9DB5647E-77A5-4037-86B9-34B6C1B7FD01@cs.ubc.ca>

Brief clip from a 1966 documentary about von Neumann:

	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po3vwMq_2xA

Goldstine presenting while standing in front of the IAS machine, which appears to be decommissioned and in storage.

Fuel for the eternal fire: Goldstine seems to be pretty definite in attributing the stored-program concept to Johnny.


From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Feb 25 23:11:38 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 23:11:38 -0600
Subject: von Neumann documentary clip
In-Reply-To: <9DB5647E-77A5-4037-86B9-34B6C1B7FD01@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <9DB5647E-77A5-4037-86B9-34B6C1B7FD01@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54EEAB0A.9030204@pico-systems.com>

On 02/25/2015 08:33 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> Brief clip from a 1966 documentary about von Neumann:
>
> 	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po3vwMq_2xA
>
> Goldstine presenting while standing in front of the IAS machine, which appears to be decommissioned and in storage.
>
> Fuel for the eternal fire: Goldstine seems to be pretty definite in attributing the stored-program concept to Johnny.
>
>
Well, I'm not sure the stored program concept was unique to 
von Neumann, it
was one of those concepts that was entirely ripe at that 
time. Stored program
is meaningless without a decent storage component.  Delay 
lines had a bunch
of problems, Williams tubes were pretty limited, and drums 
were really slow,
but you got more capacity.  And, then, of course, core 
obsoleted all of the
above, but that was well after the stored program concept 
was reality.

But, something that still bears von Neumann's name is the 
concept of a
unified memory for both data and instructions.

The computer in the video clip is the IAS, the cylinders 
along the bottom
are Williams tubes, there's a row down each side of the 
machine.  It is
on display at the Smithsonian.

Jon

From kspt.tor at gmail.com  Thu Feb 26 00:14:58 2015
From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 07:14:58 +0100
Subject: von Neumann documentary clip
Message-ID: <CAL1JhhzC0grJKMrnKZEQ5p+16i2q2Wga6GTpMULkTcnn55CtKw@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 February 2015 at 06:11, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
> On 02/25/2015 08:33 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>>
>> Brief clip from a 1966 documentary about von Neumann:
>>
>>         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po3vwMq_2xA
>>
>> Goldstine presenting while standing in front of the IAS machine, which
>> appears to be decommissioned and in storage.
>>
>> Fuel for the eternal fire: Goldstine seems to be pretty definite in
>> attributing the stored-program concept to Johnny.
>>
>>
> Well, I'm not sure the stored program concept was unique to von Neumann, it
> was one of those concepts that was entirely ripe at that time.

Well, that IBM guy was pretty insistent that it was von Neumann's
idea, but that it's one of those ideas that seems so completely
obvious when you hear about it that you can't imagine that it hasn't
been around all the time. And nevertheless someone had to come up with
the thought first. And afterwards it can never be unthought. The
"meme" concept actually.

BTW the full 55 minutes documentary is on Youtube too.

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Feb 26 00:19:15 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 22:19:15 -0800
Subject: von Neumann documentary clip
In-Reply-To: <54EEAB0A.9030204@pico-systems.com>
References: <9DB5647E-77A5-4037-86B9-34B6C1B7FD01@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54EEAB0A.9030204@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <6F6CA0EA-DEBE-4551-8882-DC3360B3B62C@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-25, at 9:11 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/25/2015 08:33 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> Brief clip from a 1966 documentary about von Neumann:
>> 
>> 	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po3vwMq_2xA
>> 
>> Goldstine presenting while standing in front of the IAS machine, which appears to be decommissioned and in storage.
>> 
>> Fuel for the eternal fire: Goldstine seems to be pretty definite in attributing the stored-program concept to Johnny.
>> 
>> 
> Well, I'm not sure the stored program concept was unique to von Neumann, it
> was one of those concepts that was entirely ripe at that time.

I was alluding to the never-ending dispute/question as to the origins of the stored-program concept.

I'm agnostic about it myself, as no one (now) really knows who said what in the meetings leading to von Neuman's production of "Draft Report on the EDVAC". He got the credit as his name was on the draft and it 'unintentionally' was distributed. IIRC from readings, vN himself didn't claim unique credit while Eckert/Mauchly claimed some degree of credit. On the other hand, (again IIRC) Goldstine was in those meetings, so would be a first-hand source.


> Stored program
> is meaningless without a decent storage component.  Delay lines had a bunch
> of problems, Williams tubes were pretty limited, and drums were really slow,
> but you got more capacity.  And, then, of course, core obsoleted all of the
> above, but that was well after the stored program concept was reality.
> 
> But, something that still bears von Neumann's name is the concept of a
> unified memory for both data and instructions.

Yes . . which many consider a misattribution.

There is another interpretation of "von Neumann architecture": that of the IAS machine which went bit-parallel, breaking from the more prevalent bit-serial design of the first S-P machines, to become the more common form, and which might be said to be adding to the confusion over the designation.


> The computer in the video clip is the IAS, the cylinders along the bottom
> are Williams tubes, there's a row down each side of the machine.  It is
> on display at the Smithsonian.

Found the full doc, indeed it mentions the location shown as a Smithsonian warehouse.
I didn't know or had forgotten it was at the Smith.


From evan at snarc.net  Thu Feb 26 09:51:29 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 10:51:29 -0500
Subject: von Neumann documentary clip
In-Reply-To: <9DB5647E-77A5-4037-86B9-34B6C1B7FD01@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <9DB5647E-77A5-4037-86B9-34B6C1B7FD01@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54EF4101.6070006@snarc.net>


> Fuel for the eternal fire: Goldstine seems to be pretty definite in attributing the stored-program concept to Johnny.

Prominent science historian Tom Haigh recently led a team of researchers 
to get to the bottom of this.

Their work resulted in three recent academic papers and a new book 
coming soon, in which they clearly found that ENIAC was up-and-running 
in stored-program configuration a short time before the Manchester and 
any other computers: www.eniacinaction.com.

John v.N. showed up after this, wrote down what he learned there, and 
sat back while everyone started calling it the "von Neumann architecture".

From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Thu Feb 26 10:02:49 2015
From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 17:02:49 +0100
Subject: DEC papertape 5x5 font ?
In-Reply-To: <54ECD271.2050006@bluewin.ch>
References: <54ECD271.2050006@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <54EF43A9.4000903@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>

Jos Dreesen wrote:
> Anyone has the DEC font, as used to mark their papertapes, ready in 
> machine readable format  ? ( C include file preferred )
> The 8x6 format I use now just does not have the right look to it.
> 

DEC used different fonts for labeling their paper-tapes:
On my original
"DEC-08-YPPA-PB 11/10/69"
most characters are in 5x6, except the zero which is
7x6 and "-" which is 3x6:
      ..XXX.X
      .X...X.
      .X..XX.
      .X.X.X.
      .X...X.
      X.XXX..

between every character are 2 empty steps.
on the same tape there is also a copyright message in proportional
4x5 / 3x5 format.


On my original "802 RIM 9/1/65 CHECKERBOARD - HIGH"
and original "DEC-08-AFC3-PB 8/67 FORTRAN OPERATING SYSTEM"
they use a different proportional font:
  8 is coded 5x6, 0 is coded 4x6, I is coded 3x6.

Then there is a program "LABEL.BN" which I use as device-driver
to label my programs, this uses a fixed font 4x6.
For this program I have the PAL-source.

Klemens




From wilson at dbit.com  Thu Feb 26 10:51:38 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 11:51:38 -0500
Subject: DEC papertape 5x5 font ?
In-Reply-To: <54ECD271.2050006@bluewin.ch>
References: <54ECD271.2050006@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <20150226165138.GA21573@dbit.dbit.com>

On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 08:35:13PM +0100, Jos Dreesen wrote:
>Anyone has the DEC font, as used to mark their papertapes, ready in
>machine readable format ? ( C include file preferred )

I waasn't aware there was a standardized font.  Back when I was writing
lots of stand-alone programs in my 8/E's core and punching them out, I
wrote my own little program to punch text, and I got a kick out of the
fact that it was easier to do in machine language than it would have been
in PAL-D, since PAL doesn't have binary;  but keying in the char-gen table
was easy to do by just turning my head sideways while I looked at the
(binary) switch register, and picturing the characters going by.

John Wilson
D Bit

From isking at uw.edu  Thu Feb 26 11:06:09 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 09:06:09 -0800
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
In-Reply-To: <CA+oaVqzytVuQFkDH+pJ0fR-DTqdaORdyka83nZv4bdLzbU66qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net> <54ED0CCE.4040905@crash.com>
 <CA+oaVqzytVuQFkDH+pJ0fR-DTqdaORdyka83nZv4bdLzbU66qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ02=x7c7D87UqUVc1NGCmC52YHpeBUAL0dCa0_xkZOXtAA@mail.gmail.com>

I think they've fixed it with the new install script, but once upon a time
old PAKs would hang around and give you a ton of warning messages on
bootup.

Also, even if you don't have the username and/or password, you can enter a
conversational boot at an attached terminal.

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 12:29 AM, Jim Carpenter <jim at deitygraveyard.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Steven M Jones <classiccmp at crash.com>
> wrote:
> > Quoting the site:
> >
> >     To register for DECUServe just Telnet to decuserve.org
> >     <telnet://decuserve.decus.org>, use username *REGISTRATION*, and
> >     follow the bouncing ball...
>
> Best to telnet/ssh to eisner.decus.org. There are still DNS issues
> with decuserve.org.
>
> Jim
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From blstuart at bellsouth.net  Thu Feb 26 11:50:47 2015
From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 09:50:47 -0800
Subject: von Neumann documentary clip
In-Reply-To: <6F6CA0EA-DEBE-4551-8882-DC3360B3B62C@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <1424973047.66910.YahooMailBasic@web184702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

> I was alluding to the never-ending dispute/question as to
> the origins of the stored-program concept.
 
The thing to remember about this question is that in January 1944,
Eckert wrote a short document titled "Disclosure of Magnetic
Calculating Machine" that discussed using disks or drums for
primary storage reflecting initial discussions related to the EDVAC.
In it, he includes the statement:

"If multiple shaft systems are used a great increase in the
available facilities and for allowing automatic programming
of the facilities and processes involved may be made, since
longer time scales are provided.  This greatly extends the
usefulness and attractiveness of such a machine.  This
programming may be of the temporary type set up on alloy
discs or of the permanent type on etched discs."

How much earlier than January 1944 this idea of programming
was floating around the Moore School is not known, but it's
clear that at least by early 1944, there was a recognition that
storing programming on the same media as data had substantial
advantages.  There is every indication that von Neumann
first learned of the work at the Moore School in July 1944 at
a chance encounter with Herman Goldstine, when Goldstine
told him of the ENIAC.  At least by August 1944, von Neumann
visited the Moore School to see the ENIAC, at which time
they were testing a two-accumulator configuration.

The bottom line is that there's not much question that by the
time von Neumann was involved with the EDVAC project,
about which his "first draft" was written, the idea of the stored
program was already established at the Moore School.

However, the situation is not as simple as this.  The idea of
the stored program would not have been in any way alien
to von Neumann, and it would not surprise me at all if he
did make significant contributions to the conversation about
what form it would take.  This is because von Neumann was
well aware of Turing's "On Computable Numbers."  Remember
that Turing did his PhD at Princeton after the publication of
that paper.  Although the IAS isn't really a part of the university,
there can be no doubt that there was a lot of contact among
people like Church, Turing, Godel, and von Neumann.  Further,
in von Neumann's examinations of cellular automata, he
specifically mentions the Turing Machine.

We also have no record of when Turing first started thinking
about embodying the universal machine of his paper in physical
form.  He didn't really write much of anything about that during
the war.  However, because he moved so quickly into working
with NPL after the war, it seems very likely that he was already
thinking about it at Bletchley.

Ultimately, trying to assign an individual and a name to the
concept is unproductive.  The ideas themselves are much
more interesting and important than credit.

BLS


From mokuba at gmail.com  Thu Feb 26 12:32:16 2015
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 13:32:16 -0500
Subject: Comcast....
Message-ID: <54ef66b1.0858e00a.6065.614f@mx.google.com>

And the others are now TITLE 2 regulated.

From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com  Thu Feb 26 12:34:32 2015
From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 13:34:32 -0500
Subject: Comcast....
In-Reply-To: <54ef66b1.0858e00a.6065.614f@mx.google.com>
References: <54ef66b1.0858e00a.6065.614f@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.54ef6738.6b8b4567.2b0@Todds-MacBook-Pro.local>

Let the lawsuits begin!!
--?
Todd Killingsworth

On February 26, 2015 at 1:32:24 PM, Gary Sparkes (mokuba at gmail.com) wrote:

And the others are now TITLE 2 regulated.

From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Feb 26 12:42:53 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 12:42:53 -0600
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode?  Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.40.1424976707.1134.cctalk@classiccmp.org>


While reading old Amiga floppies with the SuperCard Pro, I have
encountered several floppies where it seems the mag-media cookie
is no longer attached to the metal hub.  

I first saw this when I tried to clean the cookie with a swab
of isopropyl.  I'd turn the hub but the media wouldn't turn.

Any advice on repairing this?  A spot of superglue?

- John


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Feb 26 13:27:48 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 11:27:48 -0800
Subject: What resolution should I scan a missing print set at?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRbbLf7nz6jBG1rud0rSqh6Z--irZFQXWTj3wZ9LkTR9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150219013339.AB73118C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAFrGgTRbbLf7nz6jBG1rud0rSqh6Z--irZFQXWTj3wZ9LkTR9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54EF73B4.2000406@bitsavers.org>

On 2/18/15 5:41 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> If you're going to submit it to Al for Bitsavers, it's possible that
> he might want it as a TIFF file, rather than already wrapped in PDF.
>

I prefer TIFFs




From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb 26 14:22:56 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 12:22:56 -0800
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode?  Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>

On 02/26/2015 10:42 AM, John Foust wrote:
>
> While reading old Amiga floppies with the SuperCard Pro, I have
> encountered several floppies where it seems the mag-media cookie
> is no longer attached to the metal hub.
>
> I first saw this when I tried to clean the cookie with a swab
> of isopropyl.  I'd turn the hub but the media wouldn't turn.
>
> Any advice on repairing this?  A spot of superglue?

That would be my first choice--probably the gel-type,

- Chuck


From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Thu Feb 26 14:40:52 2015
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 15:40:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Comcast....
Message-ID: <1424983252.122854@dragonsweb.org>

Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote ..
> And the others are now TITLE 2 regulated.

Heh. My turn to call OT. Btw, if anybody wants to take
it elsewhere, please vote for my /. submission:

http://slashdot.org/submission/4231109/fcc-votes-along-party-lines-to-regulate-entire-internet

From david at attglobal.net  Thu Feb 26 15:21:43 2015
From: david at attglobal.net (David Schmidt)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 16:21:43 -0500
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode?  Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <20150226185148.4D8EF2073C31@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.4D8EF2073C31@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <54EF8E67.80606@attglobal.net>

On 2/26/2015 1:42 PM, John Foust wrote:
> While reading old Amiga floppies with the SuperCard Pro, I have
> encountered several floppies where it seems the mag-media cookie
> is no longer attached to the metal hub.

I've never had luck reattaching the media to the hub when it becomes 
detached.  (I've used a dab of thin but sticky glue.)  I chalked it up 
to not being able to get the alignment perfect, but it could just be 
coincidence that my media had failed at the same time.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb 26 15:29:36 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 14:29:36 -0700
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <54EF8E67.80606@attglobal.net>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.4D8EF2073C31@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF8E67.80606@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQBeFqCXo=i8QRt07OR1uOLF5473JXiT4BGk-hTs_02qg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 2:21 PM, David Schmidt <david at attglobal.net> wrote:
> I've never had luck reattaching the media to the hub when it becomes
> detached.  (I've used a dab of thin but sticky glue.)  I chalked it up to
> not being able to get the alignment perfect,

That seems quite likely. The track pitch is less than 0.2 mm. A
positioning error of less than 0.1 mm when reattaching the hub will
render the disk unreadable.

From jason at textfiles.com  Thu Feb 26 15:33:36 2015
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 13:33:36 -0800
Subject: Comcast....
In-Reply-To: <1424983252.122854@dragonsweb.org>
References: <1424983252.122854@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd0rWb_NettFgEU3+2wW20S1=oRNDuYmsx0Zudhs+q1RoQ@mail.gmail.com>

I wouldn't take it elsewhere with that spin if it was the key that unlocked
the Destiny April DLC

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 12:40 PM, <jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org> wrote:

> Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote ..
> > And the others are now TITLE 2 regulated.
>
> Heh. My turn to call OT. Btw, if anybody wants to take
> it elsewhere, please vote for my /. submission:
>
>
> http://slashdot.org/submission/4231109/fcc-votes-along-party-lines-to-regulate-entire-internet
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb 26 16:14:53 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 14:14:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQBeFqCXo=i8QRt07OR1uOLF5473JXiT4BGk-hTs_02qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.4D8EF2073C31@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF8E67.80606@attglobal.net>
 <CAFrGgTQBeFqCXo=i8QRt07OR1uOLF5473JXiT4BGk-hTs_02qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150226140134.X75388@shell.lmi.net>

> > I've never had luck reattaching the media to the hub when it becomes
> > detached.  (I've used a dab of thin but sticky glue.)  I chalked it up to
> > not being able to get the alignment perfect,

On Thu, 26 Feb 2015, Eric Smith wrote:
> That seems quite likely. The track pitch is less than 0.2 mm. A
> positioning error of less than 0.1 mm when reattaching the hub will
> render the disk unreadable.

Same basic problem occurred occasionally in >3.5" media with misclamping.

That could be confirmed by reformatting a track and then checking it.
(Outer track preference in allocation would make innermost tracks the
least risky to sacrifice)

But confirmation of the specific problem doesn't solve it.


Idle speculation:
If it were truly important to fix it, you would need to build a hub
assembly that could be offset in two dimensions, such as a 4 jaw lathe
chuck.  Then use disclosing fluid and a good magnifier (reticle?) mounted
to the drive frame or head carriage, and turn the disk and look at the
amount of runout, readjust, recheck, readjust, recheck.  The idea would be
to offset the center of the hub relative to the center of the spindle.

NO, I have not ever tried to do it.


If anybody ever succeeds at optical reading of a non-rotating disk, ...


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb 26 16:26:05 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 14:26:05 -0800
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQBeFqCXo=i8QRt07OR1uOLF5473JXiT4BGk-hTs_02qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.4D8EF2073C31@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF8E67.80606@attglobal.net>
 <CAFrGgTQBeFqCXo=i8QRt07OR1uOLF5473JXiT4BGk-hTs_02qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54EF9D7D.3090509@sydex.com>

On 02/26/2015 01:29 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 2:21 PM, David Schmidt <david at attglobal.net> wrote:
>> I've never had luck reattaching the media to the hub when it becomes
>> detached.  (I've used a dab of thin but sticky glue.)  I chalked it up to
>> not being able to get the alignment perfect,
>
> That seems quite likely. The track pitch is less than 0.2 mm. A
> positioning error of less than 0.1 mm when reattaching the hub will
> render the disk unreadable.

It isn't particularly the track pitch that gets to be critical, but the 
radial positioning of the hub that defines the index position.  If you 
can read disks without relying on the index pulse, you may have better luck.

--Chuck



From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Thu Feb 26 16:41:33 2015
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 17:41:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Comcast....
Message-ID: <1424990493.130557@dragonsweb.org>

Jason Scott <jason at textfiles.com> wrote ..
> I wouldn't take it elsewhere with that spin if it was the key that unlocked
> the Destiny April DLC
> 

So make your own submission, with whatever spin you like. Slashdot has fallen strangely silent on this story after building it up in the last few weeks and months, and most of last year. Curious, but not the first time that's happened. 

jbdigriz

From jason at textfiles.com  Thu Feb 26 16:44:40 2015
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 14:44:40 -0800
Subject: Comcast....
In-Reply-To: <1424990493.130557@dragonsweb.org>
References: <1424990493.130557@dragonsweb.org>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd2Td-CBgR=bT+XmQFk1zQuh6QpSnrCjFkKtnmRg0n+oJg@mail.gmail.com>

Don't send me one letter and send the list another. Here's what you sent me:

*shrug* and I'll sure to submit a comment in your favor should the FCC
initiate a general conduct inquiry into "edge providers" who host
bomb-making instructions under the guise of historicity.

Look, I guess I'm pretty much a voice in the wilderness on this one, but I
wouldn't spin it the other way even if they had been consistent and forced
last-mile unbundling from the telco who got over $50,000 from me when I was
starting an ISP back in the day, and now won't allow me or anyone else
access to their DSLAM or subscriber fiber.  Maybe I'm old school, but the
FCC is just wrong here, and being very disengenious and political about it.

Yours in anarchy,
jbdigriz

--



On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 2:41 PM, <jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org> wrote:

> Jason Scott <jason at textfiles.com> wrote ..
> > I wouldn't take it elsewhere with that spin if it was the key that
> unlocked
> > the Destiny April DLC
> >
>
> So make your own submission, with whatever spin you like. Slashdot has
> fallen strangely silent on this story after building it up in the last few
> weeks and months, and most of last year. Curious, but not the first time
> that's happened.
>
> jbdigriz
>

From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Thu Feb 26 16:58:13 2015
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 17:58:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Comcast....
Message-ID: <1424991493.961@dragonsweb.org>

Fine, Jason. Just trying to observe protocols learned through previous list trauma. :-) No offense intended. Ignore my post to the list anyway. I see there was in fact a /. story on the vote published. My browser was stuck on the "idle" site somehow, earlier. My bad.


Jason Scott <jason at textfiles.com> wrote ..
> Don't send me one letter and send the list another. Here's what you sent me:
>

<cut>

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Feb 26 16:59:12 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 16:59:12 -0600
Subject: Comcast....
In-Reply-To: <CAKnFLd2Td-CBgR=bT+XmQFk1zQuh6QpSnrCjFkKtnmRg0n+oJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1424990493.130557@dragonsweb.org>
 <CAKnFLd2Td-CBgR=bT+XmQFk1zQuh6QpSnrCjFkKtnmRg0n+oJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003501d05217$d69d1a90$83d74fb0$@classiccmp.org>

Bad form to post a private reply on the public list.

Nip this in the bud and take it off-list please.

J



From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Feb 26 17:13:03 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 17:13:03 -0600
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode?  Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.41.1424993438.1134.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 02:22 PM 2/26/2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>On 02/26/2015 10:42 AM, John Foust wrote:
>>Any advice on repairing this?  A spot of superglue?
>
>That would be my first choice--probably the gel-type,

I tried it.  Didn't seem to stick - apart from the potential
for misalignment.

I wonder what substance was used in the original manufacturing.

- John


From ian.finder at gmail.com  Thu Feb 26 17:40:04 2015
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 15:40:04 -0800
Subject: Seeking the Apollo PSK8 support tape image (for Domain/OS SR10.3 on
 425 and 433 workstations)
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWAbxsmWLcTJXfF470Nd9X_yXsyNWcbAxk94WCv3Cfz4yQ@mail.gmail.com>

A friend and I are trying to set up Domain/OS 10.3 on a 425 system. 10.3
appears to be the last release that will run on both the 425 system and the
DN300 we are trying to netboot.

In order to boot the Domain/OS 10.3 stock tapes on the 68040 based 425, we
will need the PSK8 kit.

Does anyone have images or tapes of:


-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Thu Feb 26 17:42:56 2015
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 15:42:56 -0800
Subject: Seeking the Apollo PSK8 support tape image (for Domain/OS SR10.3
 on 425 and 433 workstations)
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWAbxsmWLcTJXfF470Nd9X_yXsyNWcbAxk94WCv3Cfz4yQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWAbxsmWLcTJXfF470Nd9X_yXsyNWcbAxk94WCv3Cfz4yQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWAo+i4OJ7-yYpHttmm_i8h2BJBPKQDrji-x-m_++ir9NQ@mail.gmail.com>

(Previous message sent too soon. I hate the Ctrl-Enter shortcut)

A friend and I are trying to set up Domain/OS 10.3 on a 425 system. 10.3
appears to be the last release that will run on both the 425 system and the
DN300 we are trying to netboot. (If we can netboot the DN300 from 10.4,
please do tell :D )

In order to boot the Domain/OS 10.3 stock tapes on the 68040 based 425, we
will need the PSK8 kit.

Does anyone have images or tapes of:

        Product Support Kit PSK8
         Boot Tape: 019376-001
        PSK8 Software: 019374-001
        PSK8 68040 Software: 019362-001

I think we just need the Boot tape, and PSK8-68040. These probably would
have shipped with the 425 or 433.

The tapes are alluded to here: (In an old CCTALK post :-D )
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/2000-June/1039.html

Thanks,

- Ian


On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 3:40 PM, Ian Finder <ian.finder at gmail.com> wrote:

> A friend and I are trying to set up Domain/OS 10.3 on a 425 system. 10.3
> appears to be the last release that will run on both the 425 system and the
> DN300 we are trying to netboot.
>
> In order to boot the Domain/OS 10.3 stock tapes on the 68040 based 425, we
> will need the PSK8 kit.
>
> Does anyone have images or tapes of:
>
>
> --
>    Ian Finder
>    (206) 395-MIPS
>    ian.finder at gmail.com
>



-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Thu Feb 26 18:01:49 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 19:01:49 -0500
Subject: Seeking the Apollo PSK8 support tape image (for Domain/OS SR10.3
 on 425 and 433 workstations)
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWAo+i4OJ7-yYpHttmm_i8h2BJBPKQDrji-x-m_++ir9NQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWAbxsmWLcTJXfF470Nd9X_yXsyNWcbAxk94WCv3Cfz4yQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHQ+QWAo+i4OJ7-yYpHttmm_i8h2BJBPKQDrji-x-m_++ir9NQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfC537q19etCyx4-592ZM7N3jBQ40mnpJbDZWRyDJOeEmA@mail.gmail.com>

oh man!  I had three copies of that on tu58, but I tossed them last week
when the rubber bands fell off.

Just kidding.   <3

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Ian Finder <ian.finder at gmail.com> wrote:

> (Previous message sent too soon. I hate the Ctrl-Enter shortcut)
>
> A friend and I are trying to set up Domain/OS 10.3 on a 425 system. 10.3
> appears to be the last release that will run on both the 425 system and the
> DN300 we are trying to netboot. (If we can netboot the DN300 from 10.4,
> please do tell :D )
>
> In order to boot the Domain/OS 10.3 stock tapes on the 68040 based 425, we
> will need the PSK8 kit.
>
> Does anyone have images or tapes of:
>
>         Product Support Kit PSK8
>          Boot Tape: 019376-001
>         PSK8 Software: 019374-001
>         PSK8 68040 Software: 019362-001
>
> I think we just need the Boot tape, and PSK8-68040. These probably would
> have shipped with the 425 or 433.
>
> The tapes are alluded to here: (In an old CCTALK post :-D )
> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/2000-June/1039.html
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Ian
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 3:40 PM, Ian Finder <ian.finder at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A friend and I are trying to set up Domain/OS 10.3 on a 425 system. 10.3
> > appears to be the last release that will run on both the 425 system and
> the
> > DN300 we are trying to netboot.
> >
> > In order to boot the Domain/OS 10.3 stock tapes on the 68040 based 425,
> we
> > will need the PSK8 kit.
> >
> > Does anyone have images or tapes of:
> >
> >
> > --
> >    Ian Finder
> >    (206) 395-MIPS
> >    ian.finder at gmail.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
>    Ian Finder
>    (206) 395-MIPS
>    ian.finder at gmail.com
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb 26 18:45:50 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 16:45:50 -0800
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode?  Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>

On 02/26/2015 03:13 PM, John Foust wrote:

>
> I tried it.  Didn't seem to stick - apart from the potential
> for misalignment.
>
> I wonder what substance was used in the original manufacturing.

Well, there's always polyurethane glue (e.g. Gorilla glue), but it 
wouldn't be my first choice.    How about clear nail polish?

I've got some 3.5" "trash can disks".  I man give it a try to see if it 
can work.  Are you confronted with a particular brand?

--Chuck



From ian.finder at gmail.com  Thu Feb 26 20:33:20 2015
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 18:33:20 -0800
Subject: Seeking the Apollo PSK8 support tape image (for Domain/OS SR10.3
 on 425 and 433 workstations)
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfC537q19etCyx4-592ZM7N3jBQ40mnpJbDZWRyDJOeEmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWAbxsmWLcTJXfF470Nd9X_yXsyNWcbAxk94WCv3Cfz4yQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHQ+QWAo+i4OJ7-yYpHttmm_i8h2BJBPKQDrji-x-m_++ir9NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfC537q19etCyx4-592ZM7N3jBQ40mnpJbDZWRyDJOeEmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E154C509-D79A-4B95-B76F-D698D95FB173@gmail.com>

Har har har! But yes reading the tapes will require some creativeness just like with the tu58...

I should add to this that any Apollo media set of 10.3.5 will also work, presumably without the PSK8 set. Hard drive images of any 040 machine running versions < SR10.4 would also be of help.

Or- as I said- if anyone knows of a way to netboot a DN300, with or without files from older releases, from a host with 10.4, please share your thoughts. Would copying the /sau2 directories from a different domain version to the 10.4 host be sufficient?

Sent from my portable PDP 11/73

> On Feb 26, 2015, at 16:01, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> oh man!  I had three copies of that on tu58, but I tossed them last week
> when the rubber bands fell off.
> 
> Just kidding.   <3
> 
>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Ian Finder <ian.finder at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> (Previous message sent too soon. I hate the Ctrl-Enter shortcut)
>> 
>> A friend and I are trying to set up Domain/OS 10.3 on a 425 system. 10.3
>> appears to be the last release that will run on both the 425 system and the
>> DN300 we are trying to netboot. (If we can netboot the DN300 from 10.4,
>> please do tell :D )
>> 
>> In order to boot the Domain/OS 10.3 stock tapes on the 68040 based 425, we
>> will need the PSK8 kit.
>> 
>> Does anyone have images or tapes of:
>> 
>>        Product Support Kit PSK8
>>         Boot Tape: 019376-001
>>        PSK8 Software: 019374-001
>>        PSK8 68040 Software: 019362-001
>> 
>> I think we just need the Boot tape, and PSK8-68040. These probably would
>> have shipped with the 425 or 433.
>> 
>> The tapes are alluded to here: (In an old CCTALK post :-D )
>> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/2000-June/1039.html
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> - Ian
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 3:40 PM, Ian Finder <ian.finder at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> A friend and I are trying to set up Domain/OS 10.3 on a 425 system. 10.3
>>> appears to be the last release that will run on both the 425 system and
>> the
>>> DN300 we are trying to netboot.
>>> 
>>> In order to boot the Domain/OS 10.3 stock tapes on the 68040 based 425,
>> we
>>> will need the PSK8 kit.
>>> 
>>> Does anyone have images or tapes of:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>>   Ian Finder
>>>   (206) 395-MIPS
>>>   ian.finder at gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>>   Ian Finder
>>   (206) 395-MIPS
>>   ian.finder at gmail.com
>> 

From silent700 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 00:31:29 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 00:31:29 -0600
Subject: HP Atlas
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SEusOcrC-WaiUaM4Y_O2RLbwoiK=dn0CWrSGHQEgL+a3w@mail.gmail.com>

I've scanned in a pocket QRG for a language called "HP Atlas."  It
appears to be a 1970s-era language for 21MX-class machines.  I can't
find much out there about it beyond some HP press materials:

http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/HP

or the direct link:

http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/content/computing/HP/92100-93007_HP-AtlasQRG_Dec75.pdf

Most errors in the scan are, unfortunately, in the original
(double-strikes, comb holes punched over text, etc)

-j

From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net  Thu Feb 26 14:47:56 2015
From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 15:47:56 -0500
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ02=x7c7D87UqUVc1NGCmC52YHpeBUAL0dCa0_xkZOXtAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net> <54ED0CCE.4040905@crash.com>
 <CA+oaVqzytVuQFkDH+pJ0fR-DTqdaORdyka83nZv4bdLzbU66qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEJ02=x7c7D87UqUVc1NGCmC52YHpeBUAL0dCa0_xkZOXtAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54EF867C.5030508@verizon.net>

Yes, I did get a large number of warning messages at boot time.  It's 
hard to know exactly what they
are saying as they fly by.

I would like to renew my PAKS, is my DECUS number in the license file 
somewhere?  It's been a
decade since I powered up the vaxes and want to keep one, just for fun.

On 2/26/2015 12:06 PM, Ian S. King wrote:
> I think they've fixed it with the new install script, but once upon a time
> old PAKs would hang around and give you a ton of warning messages on
> bootup.
>
> Also, even if you don't have the username and/or password, you can enter a
> conversational boot at an attached terminal.
>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 12:29 AM, Jim Carpenter <jim at deitygraveyard.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Steven M Jones <classiccmp at crash.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Quoting the site:
>>>
>>>      To register for DECUServe just Telnet to decuserve.org
>>>      <telnet://decuserve.decus.org>, use username *REGISTRATION*, and
>>>      follow the bouncing ball...
>> Best to telnet/ssh to eisner.decus.org. There are still DNS issues
>> with decuserve.org.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>
>


From classiccmp at crash.com  Thu Feb 26 15:25:25 2015
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 13:25:25 -0800
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
In-Reply-To: <54EF867C.5030508@verizon.net>
References: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net> <54ED0CCE.4040905@crash.com>
 <CA+oaVqzytVuQFkDH+pJ0fR-DTqdaORdyka83nZv4bdLzbU66qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEJ02=x7c7D87UqUVc1NGCmC52YHpeBUAL0dCa0_xkZOXtAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54EF867C.5030508@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <54EF8F45.3070106@crash.com>

On 02/26/2015 12:47 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote:
> Yes, I did get a large number of warning messages at boot time.  It's
> hard to know exactly what they
> are saying as they fly by.
>
> I would like to renew my PAKS, is my DECUS number in the license file
> somewhere?  It's been a
> decade since I powered up the vaxes and want to keep one, just for fun.

If you run through the registration process at DECUServe.org, you can
recover your old account. I didn't have my number handy, but they were
able to look it up and reactivate the account.

--S.

PS - telnet (yes, telnet) to eisner.decuserve.org and follow the directions


From isking at uw.edu  Thu Feb 26 17:45:32 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 15:45:32 -0800
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
In-Reply-To: <54EF867C.5030508@verizon.net>
References: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net> <54ED0CCE.4040905@crash.com>
 <CA+oaVqzytVuQFkDH+pJ0fR-DTqdaORdyka83nZv4bdLzbU66qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEJ02=x7c7D87UqUVc1NGCmC52YHpeBUAL0dCa0_xkZOXtAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54EF867C.5030508@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ03O4+vFKKSqEq9mtHDMPCPumoTd=rKVYm-y8Q_X-5+zGg@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, your DECUS number is a six-digit number delineated by dashes from the
rest of the PAK string.

The new install script should clean out your old PAKs.  Unless they changed
it again.  :-)  But it worked fine the last time I updated PAKs on the
VAX-11 at LCM.  I need to update my own 4000/300 one of these days soon....

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4 at verizon.net>
wrote:

> Yes, I did get a large number of warning messages at boot time.  It's hard
> to know exactly what they
> are saying as they fly by.
>
> I would like to renew my PAKS, is my DECUS number in the license file
> somewhere?  It's been a
> decade since I powered up the vaxes and want to keep one, just for fun.
>
>
> On 2/26/2015 12:06 PM, Ian S. King wrote:
>
>> I think they've fixed it with the new install script, but once upon a time
>> old PAKs would hang around and give you a ton of warning messages on
>> bootup.
>>
>> Also, even if you don't have the username and/or password, you can enter a
>> conversational boot at an attached terminal.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 12:29 AM, Jim Carpenter <jim at deitygraveyard.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Steven M Jones <classiccmp at crash.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Quoting the site:
>>>>
>>>>      To register for DECUServe just Telnet to decuserve.org
>>>>      <telnet://decuserve.decus.org>, use username *REGISTRATION*, and
>>>>      follow the bouncing ball...
>>>>
>>> Best to telnet/ssh to eisner.decus.org. There are still DNS issues
>>> with decuserve.org.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From tsw-cc at johana.com  Thu Feb 26 23:47:07 2015
From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 05:47:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: DEC papertape 5x5 font ?
Message-ID: <551446913.1006411.1425016027405.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

I have a C program that generates the nice 5x7 font (actually using the 8th row as a descender on lower case) suitable for punching in paper tape.? I've used it on my Facit 4070 paper tape punch with good results.
The 4070 is attached with a simple adapter to a standard printer port.
If desired, I can supply details.

From tsw-cc at johana.com  Thu Feb 26 23:47:08 2015
From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 05:47:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: DEC papertape 5x5 font ?
Message-ID: <1403709074.1005985.1425016028128.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

I have a C program that generates the nice 5x7 font (actually using the 8th row as a descender on lower case) suitable for punching in paper tape.? I've used it on my Facit 4070 paper tape punch with good results.
The 4070 is attached with a simple adapter to a standard printer port.
If desired, I can supply details.

From brendan at bslabs.net  Fri Feb 27 01:39:58 2015
From: brendan at bslabs.net (Brendan Shanks)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 23:39:58 -0800
Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale
Message-ID: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>

Just a heads up for anyone around Los Angeles, I was browsing some local estate sale listings and saw one that had a big collection of DEC handbooks from the late-70s/80s: logic, software, microcomputer, peripherals, VAX software source book, VAX Architecture/Hardware/Software.


It?s the last two pictures at: http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725 <http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725>


Brendan

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Fri Feb 27 01:54:02 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 23:54:02 -0800
Subject: HP Atlas
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SEusOcrC-WaiUaM4Y_O2RLbwoiK=dn0CWrSGHQEgL+a3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SEusOcrC-WaiUaM4Y_O2RLbwoiK=dn0CWrSGHQEgL+a3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7CD69B0D-8575-4E82-8231-9500392B1B16@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-26, at 10:31 PM, Jason T wrote:

> I've scanned in a pocket QRG for a language called "HP Atlas."  It
> appears to be a 1970s-era language for 21MX-class machines.  I can't
> find much out there about it beyond some HP press materials:
> 
> http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/HP
> 
> or the direct link:
> 
> http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/content/computing/HP/92100-93007_HP-AtlasQRG_Dec75.pdf
> 
> Most errors in the scan are, unfortunately, in the original
> (double-strikes, comb holes punched over text, etc)

Looks like a language for Automated Test Equipment system control, which of course would fit with HP and the 21xx machines.
ATE and UUT (Unit Under Test) acronyms, etc. in the text.


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Fri Feb 27 02:27:58 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 09:27:58 +0100
Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale
In-Reply-To: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>
References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>
Message-ID: <20150227082758.GA9856@Update.UU.SE>

That IBM typewriter on picture 347 looks like something more than just a 
typwriter, could it be a terminal? Like the one on a PDP-1?

/P

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 11:39:58PM -0800, Brendan Shanks wrote:
> Just a heads up for anyone around Los Angeles, I was browsing some local estate sale listings and saw one that had a big collection of DEC handbooks from the late-70s/80s: logic, software, microcomputer, peripherals, VAX software source book, VAX Architecture/Hardware/Software.
> 
> 
> It?s the last two pictures at: http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725 <http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725>
> 
> 
> Brendan

From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Fri Feb 27 02:34:57 2015
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 00:34:57 -0800
Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale - IBM I/O typewriter?
In-Reply-To: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>
References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>
Message-ID: <54F02C31.5020602@sbcglobal.net>

On 2/26/2015 11:39 PM, Brendan Shanks wrote:
> Just a heads up for anyone around Los Angeles, I was browsing some local estate sale listings and saw one that had a big collection of DEC handbooks from the late-70s/80s: logic, software, microcomputer, peripherals, VAX software source book, VAX Architecture/Hardware/Software.
>
>
> It?s the last two pictures at: http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725 <http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725>
>
>
> Brendan

The forth photo from the last sure looks like an IBM model B I/O 
typewriter. It's not the same as the one on the 1620 though.
Keys on the left are different.

I would love to play with that! If anyone is going to the sale and would 
be willing to pick it up let me know.

Bob

-- 
Dentopedalogy is the science of opening your mouth and putting your foot in it.
I've been practising it for years.
-Prince Philip


From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com  Fri Feb 27 02:47:55 2015
From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 19:47:55 +1100
Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale - IBM I/O typewriter?
In-Reply-To: <54F02C31.5020602@sbcglobal.net>
References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>
 <54F02C31.5020602@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <CACCFpdxa9ZsTLFSaGh6fzbYF6bgfEs5C6Hz04Q=Nyq_jxmXLwQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 7:34 PM, Bob Rosenbloom <bobalan at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> The forth photo from the last sure looks like an IBM model B I/O typewriter.

It sure is, I have one here. It appears to have several wiring looms
though, the one here only has a single data cable which I guess makes
it output only (it was used as console on an Elliott 503).

> I would love to play with that! If anyone is going to the sale and would be
> willing to pick it up let me know.

They're surprisingly heavy, bend your knees when you pick up.

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 03:02:04 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 09:02:04 -0000
Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale
In-Reply-To: <20150227082758.GA9856@Update.UU.SE>
References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>
 <20150227082758.GA9856@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <050301d0526c$0ef09da0$2cd1d8e0$@gmail.com>

I can't read the legend on the switchs , but it looks like a console typewriter from an IBM 1620 or similar (did the 1401 have a console). Definitely a museum piece. Didn't someone have a 1620 minus the console? It would make a great addition to some ones 1620 emulator...

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus
> Pihlgren
> Sent: 27 February 2015 08:28
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale
> 
> That IBM typewriter on picture 347 looks like something more than just a
> typwriter, could it be a terminal? Like the one on a PDP-1?
> 
> /P
> 
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 11:39:58PM -0800, Brendan Shanks wrote:
> > Just a heads up for anyone around Los Angeles, I was browsing some local
> estate sale listings and saw one that had a big collection of DEC handbooks
> from the late-70s/80s: logic, software, microcomputer, peripherals, VAX
> software source book, VAX Architecture/Hardware/Software.
> >
> >
> > It?s the last two pictures at:
> > http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725
> > <http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-
> Angeles/90049/823725>
> >
> >
> > Brendan


From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Feb 27 03:30:10 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 01:30:10 -0800
Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale
In-Reply-To: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>
References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>
Message-ID: <54F03922.9040707@jwsss.com>

There is an IO Selectric of the early type there.  Anyone know if it is 
the 1620 console variety?

Hopefully nudging Billy Pettit in case it would work for what he needs 
for a project.

No idea whether this will work or not, but here is a link to the image:

http://pictures.estatesales.net/823725/18737915/1.jpg

There is a similarly derived link to the Dec books.  it is the last 
photo / item in the gallery.

I would hate to have to be in Brentwood @ 8am Saturday morning, but, it 
is not out of the question for the right incentive.

thanks
Jim


On 2/26/2015 11:39 PM, Brendan Shanks wrote:
> Just a heads up for anyone around Los Angeles, I was browsing some local estate sale listings and saw one that had a big collection of DEC handbooks from the late-70s/80s: logic, software, microcomputer, peripherals, VAX software source book, VAX Architecture/Hardware/Software.
>
>
> It?s the last two pictures at: http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725 <http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725>
>
>
> Brendan
>
>


From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Feb 27 03:33:33 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 01:33:33 -0800
Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale
In-Reply-To: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>
References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>
Message-ID: <54F039ED.1090909@jwsss.com>



On 2/26/2015 11:39 PM, Brendan Shanks wrote:
> Just a heads up for anyone around Los Angeles, I was browsing some local estate sale listings and saw one that had a big collection of DEC handbooks from the late-70s/80s: logic, software, microcomputer, peripherals, VAX software source book, VAX Architecture/Hardware/Software.
>
>
> It?s the last two pictures at: http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725 <http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725>
>
>
> Brendan
>
>
I didn't have the remainder of the thread before posting, but this went 
at least attention to Billy who might use it for a restoration he was doing.

Anyway, here is another bookshelf of manuals which appear to include 
Intel books.

http://pictures.estatesales.net/823725/18737916/1.jpg

And apologies for the prior post which was a repeat of earlier people's 
observations.
Thanks
Jim

From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Fri Feb 27 07:54:17 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 13:54:17 +0000
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <54EF9D7D.3090509@sydex.com>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.4D8EF2073C31@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF8E67.80606@attglobal.net>
 <CAFrGgTQBeFqCXo=i8QRt07OR1uOLF5473JXiT4BGk-hTs_02qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54EF9D7D.3090509@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150227135417.GA31338@mooli.org.uk>

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 02:26:05PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
[...]
> It isn't particularly the track pitch that gets to be critical, but the
> radial positioning of the hub that defines the index position. If you can
> read disks without relying on the index pulse, you may have better luck.

The original poster is reading Amiga disks. Although the Amiga hardware can
sense index pulses, the native format ("trackdisk.device") does not make use of
them. When the Amiga writes a sector, it actually does a read-modify-format of
the whole track. This is why the sectors are all bunched together with a single
large inter-sector gap per track, and also why "You MUST replace Volume foobar
in DF0:" due to ejecting a disk mid-write, as the whole track is now corrupted
and needs to be re-written.

I've not disassembled mfm.device to see if it does the same thing with MS-DOS
disks, but I'd be surprised if it didn't.

As to the disintegrating disk, there's probably some cute bit-nibbling trick
that can be performed by bit-banging the Amiga's disk countroller to retrieve
the data even if the media is misaligned due to re-gluing, but it's not worth
the effort for a disk that's clearly badly-made and was probably unreadable
even before it fell apart.


From jfoust at threedee.com  Fri Feb 27 08:17:53 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 08:17:53 -0600
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode?  Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.44.1425047197.1134.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 06:45 PM 2/26/2015, you wrote:
>I've got some 3.5" "trash can disks".  I man give it a try to see if it can work.  Are you confronted with a particular brand?

Can't tell.  So far they're all unmarked.  

You're not concerned about the tolerance and re-centering issues?
You think the cookie will fit back on the hub precisely enough
that it'll be aligned with where tracks were before?

For some crazy packrat reason, I too also have a couple hundred
Amiga-era floppies that failed in duplication at my software business.  
Maybe I was looking for a brand-related failure pattern back then, too.

- John


From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Fri Feb 27 08:29:05 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:29:05 +0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 10:11:32AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/19/2015 06:24 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:
>> C will run on all sorts of bizarre machines, but somebody has to bother to
>> implement it, and if the architecture is weird enough that the language has
>> to be contorted in unexpected ways, it will break assumptions made in
>> typical C code. ISTR that current versions of the standard assume a binary
>> machine that provides particular word width, but earlier versions give much
>> more flexibility.
> Do let me know when you've got C for an IBM 1620. SIMH has a pretty good
> emulator for that machine.

I have no particular interest in the IBM 1620, so don't plan to spend any
effort on finding or creating a C compiler for it.

>> That modern compilers don't support obsolete machines isn't a surprise. I
>> can't find a decent modern C compiler that targets m68k, for example, even
>> though that architecture is still just about clinging on to life.
> Again, one needs to ask "why are they considered obsolete now and not then?"
> For example, if IBM could have simplified the 7000-series machines to a
> single 7090-type architecture, they could have saved money by not
> implementing the 7070, 7080, etc.

The 7000-series is obsolete because it consists of several incompatible
architectures, splitting the software market, and then IBM rendered it obsolete
anyway with S/360.

There's probably also something odd about the design that made it unsuited for
high-level languages, but I can't quickly find a good description of its ISA
and don't feel like downloading half of Bitsavers.

> C is a great high-level assembly language for a certain class of
> architectures, I will admit.

It's bloody awful for all of them :)

> The problem with C (and to a lesser extent C++) is the lack of typing by
> usage. Does an int hold a character, boolean value, index, bit sequence or
> what? You can alleviate this to some extent with typedefs, but that doesn't
> seem to be all that prevalent. Indeed, one indicator of that problem is the
> "nUxi" problem when early developers were porting that particular OS code.

If I have to write C at all, I prefer to write the useful subset of C++ so I
can get better type abstraction. C++11 has "strongly typed enums" which are
handy but also slightly half-jobbed in their design and can be infuriating to
use. This makes them fit in just fine with the rest of C++.

> C does well with character addressing, particularly if a word/int is an
> integral multiple of characters in length. But not so well with
> bit-addressing, even though bit-addressable architectures can be very useful
> (as in vector machines).

C does support bitfields, but can't take the address of one. The latter is a
fairly uncommon requirement though, and so algorithms that require it will have
to roll their own using mask and shift operations. Given that x86 doesn't have
bitfield instructions and has to fake it with mask and shift, this is no great
loss in practice. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a bitfield_ptr<> in
Boost which did this.


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 02:56:45 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 08:56:45 -0000
Subject: DEC papertape 5x5 font ?
In-Reply-To: <551446913.1006411.1425016027405.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <551446913.1006411.1425016027405.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <049701d0526b$5075a550$f160eff0$@gmail.com>

Tom,
 I would like a copy of that.
Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom
> Watson
> Sent: 27 February 2015 05:47
> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: DEC papertape 5x5 font ?
> 
> I have a C program that generates the nice 5x7 font (actually using the 8th
> row as a descender on lower case) suitable for punching in paper tape.  I've
> used it on my Facit 4070 paper tape punch with good results.
> The 4070 is attached with a simple adapter to a standard printer port.
> If desired, I can supply details.


From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Fri Feb 27 03:54:14 2015
From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 10:54:14 +0100
Subject: DEC papertape 5x5 font ?
In-Reply-To: <1403709074.1005985.1425016028128.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1403709074.1005985.1425016028128.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <54F03EC6.8050606@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>

Tom Watson wrote:
> I have a C program that generates the nice 5x7 font (actually using 
 > the 8th row as a descender on lower case) suitable for punching in
 > paper tape.

Punching the 8th row is not suitable for DEC-Labels, because this is
used for indicating leader/trailer of the .BN-files. Not using the 8th
row makes it possible to put labels between two parts of a program
without irritation of some binloaders.
It would be possible for example to label the three parts of the
CINET-BASIC, which I got in the meantime, each by it self. A normal
loader will simply skip them.

Klemens




From evan at snarc.net  Fri Feb 27 09:47:57 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 10:47:57 -0500
Subject: LAST CALL - VCF East exhibit reg ends Monday
Message-ID: <54F091AD.5090604@snarc.net>

Everyone,

VCF East exhibit registration ends Monday.

Anyone who requests a booth after that will go onto a wait list.

http://www.vintage.org/2015/east/exhibit.php

- Evan K.

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 27 11:05:11 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 09:05:11 -0800
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode?  Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>

On 02/27/2015 06:17 AM, John Foust wrote:
> At 06:45 PM 2/26/2015, you wrote:

> You're not concerned about the tolerance and re-centering issues?
> You think the cookie will fit back on the hub precisely enough
> that it'll be aligned with where tracks were before?

Not so  much.  A 3.5" floppy is recorded at 135 tpi, where an 
80-cylinder 5.25" floppy at 96 tpi.  On 5.25" Drivetec floppies, the 
cylinder density is double that--192 tpi.

Now consider the hub-clamp mechanism of a 5.25" drive.  I suspect that 
with a bit of care, one can probably get things right most of the time.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 27 12:27:08 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 10:27:08 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>

On 02/27/2015 06:29 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:


> C does support bitfields, but can't take the address of one. The latter is a
> fairly uncommon requirement though, and so algorithms that require it will have
> to roll their own using mask and shift operations. Given that x86 doesn't have
> bitfield instructions and has to fake it with mask and shift, this is no great
> loss in practice. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a bitfield_ptr<> in
> Boost which did this.

Well, the 386+ CPUs have bit manipulation instructions and *almost* had 
bit string/field instructions.  There are still books out there that 
describe in detail the function of the BFxxx instructions.

I suppose that it's unreasonable for a language to support processor 
instruction set extensions.  But APL does a great job of supporting 
vectors; has a syntax for things such as dot-product, etc.  So it can't 
be that K&R weren't aware of such things.

It seems to me to be very strange that today we're coding in a language 
that was developed for a PDP-11 minicomputer.

--Chuck





From ggs at shiresoft.com  Fri Feb 27 12:30:06 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 10:30:06 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 27, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
> On 02/27/2015 06:29 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:
> 
> 
>> C does support bitfields, but can't take the address of one. The latter is a
>> fairly uncommon requirement though, and so algorithms that require it will have
>> to roll their own using mask and shift operations. Given that x86 doesn't have
>> bitfield instructions and has to fake it with mask and shift, this is no great
>> loss in practice. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a bitfield_ptr<> in
>> Boost which did this.
> 
> Well, the 386+ CPUs have bit manipulation instructions and *almost* had bit string/field instructions.  There are still books out there that describe in detail the function of the BFxxx instructions.
> 
> I suppose that it's unreasonable for a language to support processor instruction set extensions.  But APL does a great job of supporting vectors; has a syntax for things such as dot-product, etc.  So it can't be that K&R weren't aware of such things.
> 
> It seems to me to be very strange that today we're coding in a language that was developed for a PDP-11 minicomputer.

The frustrating thing for me is not just the instructions but the memory model.  Some of the issues (security springs to mind) that
we're facing today can be solved by *not* having a completely flat memory model.  I'm still a fan of tagged memory.  ;-)

TTFN - Guy


From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 13:40:10 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 12:40:10 -0700
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> On 5.25" Drivetec floppies, the cylinder density is
> double that--192 tpi.
>
> Now consider the hub-clamp mechanism of a 5.25" drive.  I suspect that with
> a bit of care, one can probably get things right most of the time.

And the only way Drivetec was able to get that to work was by using an
embedded servo for closed-loop positioning.

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Feb 27 13:44:33 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:44:33 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <A2EFB319-3D08-4092-841B-94F12BC45784@comcast.net>


> On Feb 27, 2015, at 1:27 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
> ...
> I suppose that it's unreasonable for a language to support processor instruction set extensions.  But APL does a great job of supporting vectors; has a syntax for things such as dot-product, etc.  So it can't be that K&R weren't aware of such things.
> 
> It seems to me to be very strange that today we're coding in a language that was developed for a PDP-11 minicomputer.

I thought it was a PDP-7 minicomputer?  (Or is that Unix?)

But while C was first run on a DEC minicomputer, it isn?t in any significant way ?for? those computers, any more than Fortran or COBOL are for IBM computers.  All high level languages are pretty portable, some a bit more so than others.  For example, Fortran fits comfortably on CDC 6000 machines (60 bits one?s complement) and IBM 1620 (decimal variable length); C doesn?t.  If you really stand on your head, you can sort of make it work; there exists a C for the 6600, for example.  But you have to stretch, if not outright violate, a number of the language rules to do so.

I think the limitations and design of C come from the fact that it was designed for OS implementation, not high level application implementation, as APL or various other languages were.  Compare C with Bliss and Sympl and ESPOL, not with APL or Snobol.  Given that focus, it?s pretty good.  Certainly better than Bliss.  The other two suffer from being implemented only on single proprietary platforms that have long since disappeared, and Sympl didn?t have much going for it anyway (being based on Jovial is certainly a recipe for disaster).  It would have been nice if ESPOL had evolved to be a portable language as C was, but that didn?t happen.

C does have extensions for vectors; I know GCC does, and for all I know those may be standard rather than GCC specials.

I suppose there?s always Ada if you want a clean portable systems programming language...

	paul

From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 13:52:34 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 12:52:34 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:27 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> It seems to me to be very strange that today we're coding in a language that
> was developed for a PDP-11 minicomputer.

Developed for the PDP-7, actually.  Contrary to popular belief, the
"++" and "--" operators were NOT the result of the PDP-11 addressing
modes.

From isking at uw.edu  Fri Feb 27 13:57:13 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 11:57:13 -0800
Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale
In-Reply-To: <20150227082758.GA9856@Update.UU.SE>
References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>
 <20150227082758.GA9856@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ01ZY_BcCLNjyctFJCVxoaGkr4sgtOPiAmV8E1YKcRkTTA@mail.gmail.com>

 I believe the PDP-1 used a Flexowriter.  I suspect DEC would have used an
IBM product over Ken Olsen's dead body.  :-)

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 12:27 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
wrote:

> That IBM typewriter on picture 347 looks like something more than just a
> typwriter, could it be a terminal? Like the one on a PDP-1?
>
> /P
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 11:39:58PM -0800, Brendan Shanks wrote:
> > Just a heads up for anyone around Los Angeles, I was browsing some local
> estate sale listings and saw one that had a big collection of DEC handbooks
> from the late-70s/80s: logic, software, microcomputer, peripherals, VAX
> software source book, VAX Architecture/Hardware/Software.
> >
> >
> > It?s the last two pictures at:
> http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725 <
> http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725>
> >
> >
> > Brendan
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School
University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 27 13:58:14 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 11:58:14 -0800
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>

On 02/27/2015 11:40 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> On 5.25" Drivetec floppies, the cylinder density is
>> double that--192 tpi.
>>
>> Now consider the hub-clamp mechanism of a 5.25" drive.  I suspect that with
>> a bit of care, one can probably get things right most of the time.
>
> And the only way Drivetec was able to get that to work was by using an
> embedded servo for closed-loop positioning.

I'm not sure that the "fine" stepper was used other than to bring the 
head initially on-track.  That is, I'm not at all sure that it 
compensated for any eccentricity.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 27 14:01:15 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 12:01:15 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <A2EFB319-3D08-4092-841B-94F12BC45784@comcast.net>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <A2EFB319-3D08-4092-841B-94F12BC45784@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <54F0CD0B.5030204@sydex.com>

On 02/27/2015 11:44 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>

> I thought it was a PDP-7 minicomputer?  (Or is that Unix?)

That was Unix, I believe.  C evolved during the port to the 11.  At 
least that's what I remember.

--Chuck


From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 14:03:14 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 13:03:14 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <A2EFB319-3D08-4092-841B-94F12BC45784@comcast.net>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <A2EFB319-3D08-4092-841B-94F12BC45784@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSbYKhP18ZQg4sugC3TX8kgdf8shXJqvMCMJRon_rYoZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
> I suppose there?s always Ada if you want a clean portable systems programming language...

Ada-83 lacked function pointers, which made it suck for systems
programming. Other than that, I got a lot of use out of it back in the
mid-1980s. They fixed that and added a lot of other useful stuff in
Ada-95, and even more in Ada-2012.  My biggest gripe about it now is
that exceptions still aren't a first-class data type; the only data
you can attach to an exception is a text string. There was a proposal
to fix that back when Ada-95 was in development, but it wasn't
accepted. People kludge around that by packing other data into the
string. Of course, some people claim that there shouldn't be exception
handling at all, and that it's better for things like out-of-bounds
array references to have unpredictable results. I've never understood
how that could possibly be viewed as a good thing.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, the C++ fanatics criticized Ada for
being a large, complicated language, designed by committee. (In
actuality, Ada was originally designed by a small team.) Over time,
C++ copied many of the features of Ada that the C++ fanatics had
formerly criticized, and also added many original features, to where
C++ is a far more complicated language than Ada.  While I won't
dispute that there have been many improvements to C++, the fundamental
problem is that it's still almost a superset of C, so it's a worse
language than C because it has all of C's deficiencies and adds some
new ones.

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 27 14:03:46 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 12:03:46 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54F0CDA2.8020502@sydex.com>

On 02/27/2015 11:52 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:27 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> It seems to me to be very strange that today we're coding in a language that
>> was developed for a PDP-11 minicomputer.
>
> Developed for the PDP-7, actually.  Contrary to popular belief, the
> "++" and "--" operators were NOT the result of the PDP-11 addressing
> modes.

Well, as much as I hate using WikiP as a reference, there is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_%28programming_language%29#History

--Chuck



From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 14:05:29 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 13:05:29 -0700
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54F0CD0B.5030204@sydex.com>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <A2EFB319-3D08-4092-841B-94F12BC45784@comcast.net>
 <54F0CD0B.5030204@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQTEK2vaxskfVNSffyuJst2pYTcyi+pD-FY+9R0BmSH6w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> That was Unix, I believe.  C evolved during the port to the 11.  At least
> that's what I remember.

But evolved from B, which was on the PDP-7, and which had many of the
language features people have falsely blamed on the PDP-11, such as
the increment and decrement operators.

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 27 14:08:39 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 12:08:39 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54F0CEC7.5030801@sydex.com>

On 02/27/2015 11:52 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:27 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> It seems to me to be very strange that today we're coding in a language that
>> was developed for a PDP-11 minicomputer.
>
> Developed for the PDP-7, actually.  Contrary to popular belief, the
> "++" and "--" operators were NOT the result of the PDP-11 addressing
> modes.

Also, this from DR:

http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/chist.html

While there was B for the PDP-7, was there ever a C for it?

--Chuck




From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Feb 27 11:34:24 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 09:34:24 -0800
Subject: HP Atlas
In-Reply-To: <7CD69B0D-8575-4E82-8231-9500392B1B16@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <CAEfH1SEusOcrC-WaiUaM4Y_O2RLbwoiK=dn0CWrSGHQEgL+a3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <7CD69B0D-8575-4E82-8231-9500392B1B16@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54F0AAA0.60700@bitsavers.org>

On 2/26/15 11:54 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> On 2015-Feb-26, at 10:31 PM, Jason T wrote:
>
>> I've scanned in a pocket QRG for a language called "HP Atlas."  It
>> appears to be a 1970s-era language for 21MX-class machines.  I can't
>> find much out there about it beyond some HP press materials:
>>
>> http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/HP
>>
>> or the direct link:
>>
>> http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/content/computing/HP/92100-93007_HP-AtlasQRG_Dec75.pdf
>>
>> Most errors in the scan are, unfortunately, in the original
>> (double-strikes, comb holes punched over text, etc)
>
> Looks like a language for Automated Test Equipment system control, which of course would fit with HP and the 21xx machines.
> ATE and UUT (Unit Under Test) acronyms, etc. in the text.
>
>
>
http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/scc20/td/ATLAS%20Standard.htm



From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Fri Feb 27 14:41:17 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 12:41:17 -0800
Subject: von Neumann documentary clip
In-Reply-To: <54EF4101.6070006@snarc.net>
References: <9DB5647E-77A5-4037-86B9-34B6C1B7FD01@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54EF4101.6070006@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <E0D221D9-0D08-4A11-83B6-A4344D5628FA@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-26, at 7:51 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote:

>> Fuel for the eternal fire: Goldstine seems to be pretty definite in attributing the stored-program concept to Johnny.
> 
> Prominent science historian Tom Haigh recently led a team of researchers to get to the bottom of this.

Thanks for the link, the articles were very interesting.

However: 

> Their work resulted in three recent academic papers and a new book coming soon, in which they clearly found that ENIAC was up-and-running in stored-program configuration a short time before the Manchester and any other computers: www.eniacinaction.com.

The authors of the articles carefully avoid declarations of ENIAC as a stored-program machine. They separate out 3 aspects from the "First Draft of a Report on the EDVAC"  (the "modern code paradigm" as defined by them, the "von Neumann architecture paradigm", and the "EDVAC hardware paradigm") and show how the 1948-modified ENIAC (to provide it with an instruction-set-based programming capability) implemented the "modern code paradigm". While that was a couple of months before the Baby, it is not the same (by the authors own definitions and intent) as making it a stored-program machine.

In modern terminology, I would suggest the 1948 ENIAC would be classed (as far as it can be) as Harvard-Architecture or a form of modified-Harvard-Architecture machine.


> John v.N. showed up after this, wrote down what he learned there, and sat back while everyone started calling it the "von Neumann architecture".


Von Neumann was around the project years before the 46-48 modifications. He produced the Draft Report on the EDVAC - from which those modifications were conceptually derived - in 1945. As presented in the articles, the modifications were von Neumann's idea and implemented in consultation with him.


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Feb 27 14:43:23 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:43:23 -0600
Subject: HP 7970E mag tape brackets
Message-ID: <003d01d052ce$07cc3b30$1764b190$@classiccmp.org>

I was just informed that the "new manufacture" mounting brackets for the
7970E are ready. I saw them at about 90% of the fabrication process being
complete and they looked really good. Today I'm going to stop at the
hardware store and buy a set of bolts/nuts/washers that match the originals
(got them there before so I know they have the right ones) so that I can
ship each one with a baggie of the "right stuff". I will probably have them
shipped out to the people that wanted one by the end of next week-ish.

 

If you were one of those people that confirmed you needed one or two, please
email me your shipping address.

 

Best,

 

J

 

 


From evan at snarc.net  Fri Feb 27 15:15:48 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 16:15:48 -0500
Subject: von Neumann documentary clip
In-Reply-To: <E0D221D9-0D08-4A11-83B6-A4344D5628FA@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <9DB5647E-77A5-4037-86B9-34B6C1B7FD01@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54EF4101.6070006@snarc.net> <E0D221D9-0D08-4A11-83B6-A4344D5628FA@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54F0DE84.5030902@snarc.net>

 >> The authors of the articles carefully avoid declarations of ENIAC as 
a stored-program machine.

I interpret is differently. What they're doing is observing that "stored 
program" then vs. now could mean different things.

 >>>> John v.N. showed up after this, wrote down what he learned there, 
and sat back while everyone started calling it the "von Neumann 
architecture".

 >> Von Neumann was around the project years before the 46-48 
modifications. He produced the Draft Report on the EDVAC - from which 
those modifications were conceptually derived - in 1945.

What I meant is he got there after Mauchly & Eckert were already 
thinking about such things.

From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Feb 27 15:18:19 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 22:18:19 +0100
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-27 20:52, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:27 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> It seems to me to be very strange that today we're coding in a language that
>> was developed for a PDP-11 minicomputer.
>
> Developed for the PDP-7, actually.  Contrary to popular belief, the
> "++" and "--" operators were NOT the result of the PDP-11 addressing
> modes.

No, C was developed for/on the PDP-11. Unix was originally implemented 
on a PDP-7, but that was all in assembler. It was then ported to the 
PDP-11, and then rewritten in C.

And yes, the ++ and -- was not related to the PDP-11 instruction 
argument forms, even if they make some of it easier. This has been 
publicly explained by DMR in the past. The post/mail should be easy to find.

There is a second discussion about C and the PDP-11, which centers 
around the floating point mode, which might actually come from the 
PDP-11 architecture peculiarity. (I'm sure someone can dig up the 
details of that one if they are interested.)

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From roeapeterson at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 15:23:41 2015
From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 15:23:41 -0600
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com>


> On Feb 27, 2015, at 12:30 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 27, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On 02/27/2015 06:29 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> C does support bitfields, but can't take the address of one.

True.  Personally, I always found bitfields a bit cumbersome.

>> 
>> I suppose that it's unreasonable for a language to support processor instruction set extensions.  But APL does a great job of supporting vectors; has a syntax for things such as dot-product, etc.  So it can't be that K&R weren't aware of such things.

APL was very interesting, but every implementation I ever used was interpreted, not compiled.  It made for some pretty slow running code, even though development was very fast for some things.

In a slightly perverse way, kind of like perl today :-)

>> 
>> It seems to me to be very strange that today we're coding in a language that was developed for a PDP-11 minicomputer.
> 
> The frustrating thing for me is not just the instructions but the memory model.  Some of the issues (security springs to mind) that
> we're facing today can be solved by *not* having a completely flat memory model.  I'm still a fan of tagged memory.  ;-)

I'm not convinced that C can't handle tagged memory, but in any case, if what you need is real metal-level speed, well written C is very hard to beat.  The ability to include assembler is also occasionally useful :-)



> 
> TTFN - Guy
> 

From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Feb 27 15:24:19 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 22:24:19 +0100
Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ01ZY_BcCLNjyctFJCVxoaGkr4sgtOPiAmV8E1YKcRkTTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>
 <20150227082758.GA9856@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAKtEJ01ZY_BcCLNjyctFJCVxoaGkr4sgtOPiAmV8E1YKcRkTTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54F0E083.3040705@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-27 20:57, Ian S. King wrote:
>   I believe the PDP-1 used a Flexowriter.  I suspect DEC would have used an
> IBM product over Ken Olsen's dead body.  :-)

I don't think KO had such an anti-IBM view, especially not back then.
There were definitely some IBM equipment and technology used by DEC, 
such as card punches and formats. DEC was very keen on connectivity with 
IBM equipment, and I think some early disk technology was probably IBM 
stuff as well.

	Johnny

>
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 12:27 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
> wrote:
>
>> That IBM typewriter on picture 347 looks like something more than just a
>> typwriter, could it be a terminal? Like the one on a PDP-1?
>>
>> /P
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 11:39:58PM -0800, Brendan Shanks wrote:
>>> Just a heads up for anyone around Los Angeles, I was browsing some local
>> estate sale listings and saw one that had a big collection of DEC handbooks
>> from the late-70s/80s: logic, software, microcomputer, peripherals, VAX
>> software source book, VAX Architecture/Hardware/Software.
>>>
>>>
>>> It?s the last two pictures at:
>> http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725 <
>> http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brendan
>>
>
>
>


-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From evan at snarc.net  Fri Feb 27 15:44:49 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 16:44:49 -0500
Subject: von Neumann documentary clip
In-Reply-To: <E0D221D9-0D08-4A11-83B6-A4344D5628FA@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <9DB5647E-77A5-4037-86B9-34B6C1B7FD01@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54EF4101.6070006@snarc.net> <E0D221D9-0D08-4A11-83B6-A4344D5628FA@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54F0E551.9060501@snarc.net>


>> Their work resulted in three recent academic papers and a new book coming soon, in which they clearly found that ENIAC was up-and-running in stored-program configuration a short time before the Manchester and any other computers: www.eniacinaction.com.
> The authors of the articles carefully avoid declarations of ENIAC as a stored-program machine.

Tom stated (in an email last fall): "we do conclude that an entirely 
practical version of the programming method described in the seminal 
1945 First Draft of a Report on the EDVAC was implemented on ENIAC in 
March-April 1948, some months before the Manchester ?Baby? ran what has 
usually been considered the first modern program."

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 27 15:57:58 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 13:57:58 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com>

On 02/27/2015 01:18 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

> No, C was developed for/on the PDP-11. Unix was originally implemented  was then ported to the
> PDP-11, and then rewritten in C.

Although ++ and -- were convenient for code writers, they did lead to 
some "it depends" implementation details WRT function calls.  I assume 
that ANSI C has straightened that all out, but I still avoid that type 
of thing by habit.

Digressing a bit, I recall talking with a fellow from Xerox on Coyote 
Hill Rd. (not Xerox PARC) back in the early 80s and being surprised that 
he said they coded in B.  Was this the same B developed on the PDP-7? 
Or was it some other beast?

--Chuck





From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Feb 27 16:00:04 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 17:00:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Hilarious post Was: von Neumann documentary clip
Message-ID: <20150227220004.AE6D718C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So, in the course of tracking down the mentioned von Neumann papers, I ran
across this:

  http://www.tomandmaria.com/tom/Writing/MorozovQuixote.htm

which is utterly hilarious. (Note: it's even funnier if you're familiar with
the work of Borges.)

    Noel

From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Feb 27 16:03:59 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 23:03:59 +0100
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-27 22:57, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/27/2015 01:18 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
>> No, C was developed for/on the PDP-11. Unix was originally
>> implemented  was then ported to the
>> PDP-11, and then rewritten in C.
>
> Although ++ and -- were convenient for code writers, they did lead to
> some "it depends" implementation details WRT function calls.  I assume
> that ANSI C has straightened that all out, but I still avoid that type
> of thing by habit.

I'm not aware of any ambiguity WRT function calls, but you do have a 
ambiguity WRT the same argument being used multiple times (incluiding if 
you have increments on it) as the order of evaluation of any part of a 
statement in C is undefined except for some special cases.

> Digressing a bit, I recall talking with a fellow from Xerox on Coyote
> Hill Rd. (not Xerox PARC) back in the early 80s and being surprised that
> he said they coded in B.  Was this the same B developed on the PDP-7? Or
> was it some other beast?

I don't think B was developed on a PDP-7, only that it existed for the 
PDP-7, among other machines.
Not that Unix was ever written in B anyway, but I believe that B did 
exist for the PDP-7.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 27 16:16:19 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:16:19 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com>
 <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com>

On 02/27/2015 02:03 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

> I'm not aware of any ambiguity WRT function calls, but you do have a
> ambiguity WRT the same argument being used multiple times (incluiding if
> you have increments on it) as the order of evaluation of any part of a
> statement in C is undefined except for some special cases.

Yes, and that's just it--it's an operator with an implied LHS, that is, 
it not only returns a value, but alters its argument.  In languages 
preceding it, I'm not aware of such an operator.

> Not that Unix was ever written in B anyway, but I believe that B did
> exist for the PDP-7.

But was the "B" used by Xerox in the 80s, the same language?

--Chuck



From ian.finder at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 16:45:32 2015
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:45:32 -0800
Subject: Removing OpenVMS license paks
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ03O4+vFKKSqEq9mtHDMPCPumoTd=rKVYm-y8Q_X-5+zGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54ECD8FC.3050207@verizon.net> <54ED0CCE.4040905@crash.com>
 <CA+oaVqzytVuQFkDH+pJ0fR-DTqdaORdyka83nZv4bdLzbU66qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEJ02=x7c7D87UqUVc1NGCmC52YHpeBUAL0dCa0_xkZOXtAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54EF867C.5030508@verizon.net>
 <CAKtEJ03O4+vFKKSqEq9mtHDMPCPumoTd=rKVYm-y8Q_X-5+zGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BD6997B7-6598-44F6-861F-6133AF96A28F@gmail.com>

pakgen.c is a way of life. #justsaying

Sent from my portable PDP 11/73

> On Feb 26, 2015, at 15:45, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> 
> Yes, your DECUS number is a six-digit number delineated by dashes from the
> rest of the PAK string.
> 
> The new install script should clean out your old PAKs.  Unless they changed
> it again.  :-)  But it worked fine the last time I updated PAKs on the
> VAX-11 at LCM.  I need to update my own 4000/300 one of these days soon....
> 
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4 at verizon.net>
> wrote:
> 
>> Yes, I did get a large number of warning messages at boot time.  It's hard
>> to know exactly what they
>> are saying as they fly by.
>> 
>> I would like to renew my PAKS, is my DECUS number in the license file
>> somewhere?  It's been a
>> decade since I powered up the vaxes and want to keep one, just for fun.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 2/26/2015 12:06 PM, Ian S. King wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think they've fixed it with the new install script, but once upon a time
>>> old PAKs would hang around and give you a ton of warning messages on
>>> bootup.
>>> 
>>> Also, even if you don't have the username and/or password, you can enter a
>>> conversational boot at an attached terminal.
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 12:29 AM, Jim Carpenter <jim at deitygraveyard.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Steven M Jones <classiccmp at crash.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Quoting the site:
>>>>> 
>>>>>     To register for DECUServe just Telnet to decuserve.org
>>>>>     <telnet://decuserve.decus.org>, use username *REGISTRATION*, and
>>>>>     follow the bouncing ball...
>>>> Best to telnet/ssh to eisner.decus.org. There are still DNS issues
>>>> with decuserve.org.
>>>> 
>>>> Jim
> 
> 
> -- 
> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS
> Ph.D. Candidate
> The Information School
> University of Washington
> 
> There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From evan at snarc.net  Fri Feb 27 16:50:06 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 17:50:06 -0500
Subject: Hilarious post Was: von Neumann documentary clip
In-Reply-To: <20150227220004.AE6D718C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150227220004.AE6D718C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <54F0F49E.80400@snarc.net>


> So, in the course of tracking down the mentioned von Neumann papers, I ran
> across this:
>
>    http://www.tomandmaria.com/tom/Writing/MorozovQuixote.htm
>
> which is utterly hilarious. (Note: it's even funnier if you're familiar with
> the work of Borges.)

Indeed!

The "cabal" references are an inside joke among SHOT-SIGCIS members. 
V.A. Shiva Ayyadurai -- the person who claimed to have "invented email" 
and who several book reviewers took seriously -- referred to historians 
as a "cabal of insiders" who are just looking to protect BBN.

In other words, someone made a ridiculous claim, and when called on it, 
defended himself with an equally ridiculous claim about his critics.

Then he had associates go on the attack for him. One example: an 
associate of his pretended to write an objective piece in HuffPo, 
attacking "this coterie of industry insiders including consultants, 
employees, alumni and an Internet cabal of SIGCIS 'historians' with ties 
to Raytheon/BBN."

The coworker's piece also cited Noam Chomsky, who allegedly talked of 
how "deplorable are the childish tantrums of industry insiders who now 
believe that by creating confusion ... they can distract attention from 
the facts" -- the "facts" being, according to Ayyadurai and his own 
(ahem) cabal, that he alone "invented email".

Soon after, when Medina (another historian) had her article basically 
plagiarized, Tom wrote the satirical message that you found.

Ever since, SIGCIS members jokingly refer to themselves as a cabal.

There's even been discussion of a secret handshake.  :)

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Fri Feb 27 16:57:20 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:57:20 -0800
Subject: von Neumann documentary clip
In-Reply-To: <54F0DE84.5030902@snarc.net>
References: <9DB5647E-77A5-4037-86B9-34B6C1B7FD01@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54EF4101.6070006@snarc.net> <E0D221D9-0D08-4A11-83B6-A4344D5628FA@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54F0DE84.5030902@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <21FC8177-4FC5-48C7-8C3A-089CB6AD7250@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-27, at 1:15 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:

> >> The authors of the articles carefully avoid declarations of ENIAC as a stored-program machine.
> 
> I interpret is differently. What they're doing is observing that "stored program" then vs. now could mean different things.

Which is why they're avoiding making a "stored-program" declaration in regards to the ENIAC.
Note also, as they present, "stored-program" as a phrase is itself post-ENIAC.

> >>>> John v.N. showed up after this, wrote down what he learned there, and sat back while everyone started calling it the "von Neumann architecture".
> 
> >> Von Neumann was around the project years before the 46-48 modifications. He produced the Draft Report on the EDVAC - from which those modifications were conceptually derived - in 1945.
> 
> What I meant is he got there after Mauchly & Eckert were already thinking about such things.


So M&E, or their proponents, claim.

You should have said what you meant then.


Earlier, I said:
>> Fuel for the eternal fire: Goldstine seems to be pretty definite in attributing the stored-program concept to Johnny.

and you replied:
> Prominent science historian Tom Haigh recently led a team of researchers to get to the bottom of this.


The articles do not in any way get to the bottom of this, they do not address the origins of the stored-program concept, nor do they contradict or diminish von Neumann's place or influence in the stored-program matter.

(And to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with the articles, they were very informative.)

I know you like to support the ENIAC camp, Evan, but from what I see, you're not helping it.


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Fri Feb 27 16:58:00 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:58:00 -0800
Subject: von Neumann documentary clip
In-Reply-To: <54F0E551.9060501@snarc.net>
References: <9DB5647E-77A5-4037-86B9-34B6C1B7FD01@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54EF4101.6070006@snarc.net> <E0D221D9-0D08-4A11-83B6-A4344D5628FA@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54F0E551.9060501@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <88375AEA-0492-428A-B721-D8138EF44FA4@cs.ubc.ca>


On 2015-Feb-27, at 1:44 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:

> 
>>> Their work resulted in three recent academic papers and a new book coming soon, in which they clearly found that ENIAC was up-and-running in stored-program configuration a short time before the Manchester and any other computers: www.eniacinaction.com.
>> The authors of the articles carefully avoid declarations of ENIAC as a stored-program machine.
> 
> Tom stated (in an email last fall): "we do conclude that an entirely practical version of the programming method described in the seminal 1945 First Draft of a Report on the EDVAC was implemented on ENIAC in March-April 1948, some months before the Manchester ?Baby? ran what has usually been considered the first modern program."

And as they present in the articles, the "programming method described" is not the be-all-and-end-all of the First Draft and it is not the von Neumann architecture nor the stored-program concept.


From evan at snarc.net  Fri Feb 27 17:02:58 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 18:02:58 -0500
Subject: von Neumann documentary clip
In-Reply-To: <21FC8177-4FC5-48C7-8C3A-089CB6AD7250@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <9DB5647E-77A5-4037-86B9-34B6C1B7FD01@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54EF4101.6070006@snarc.net> <E0D221D9-0D08-4A11-83B6-A4344D5628FA@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54F0DE84.5030902@snarc.net> <21FC8177-4FC5-48C7-8C3A-089CB6AD7250@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54F0F7A2.7030209@snarc.net>


>> Prominent science historian Tom Haigh recently led a team of researchers to get to the bottom of this.
>
> The articles do not in any way get to the bottom of this, they do not address the origins of the stored-program concept, nor do they contradict or diminish von Neumann's place or influence in the stored-program matter.

I don't understand how anyone could read those articles and not see how 
they get to the bottom of it.

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Fri Feb 27 17:12:49 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 15:12:49 -0800
Subject: von Neumann documentary clip
In-Reply-To: <54F0F7A2.7030209@snarc.net>
References: <9DB5647E-77A5-4037-86B9-34B6C1B7FD01@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54EF4101.6070006@snarc.net> <E0D221D9-0D08-4A11-83B6-A4344D5628FA@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54F0DE84.5030902@snarc.net> <21FC8177-4FC5-48C7-8C3A-089CB6AD7250@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54F0F7A2.7030209@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <603DE4D1-112A-4A32-8DB0-DD53098C573B@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Feb-27, at 3:02 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:

>>> Prominent science historian Tom Haigh recently led a team of researchers to get to the bottom of this.
>> 
>> The articles do not in any way get to the bottom of this, they do not address the origins of the stored-program concept, nor do they contradict or diminish von Neumann's place or influence in the stored-program matter.
> 
> I don't understand how anyone could read those articles and not see how they get to the bottom of it.


Then you're not reading very closely or understanding the article.

The concept Evan, not an implementation, or partial implementation, or aspect, derived from the concept. 1945, not 1948.


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 17:19:13 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 23:19:13 -0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009c01d052e3$ccea37e0$66bea7a0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
> Sent: 27 February 2015 19:53
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
> 
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:27 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> > It seems to me to be very strange that today we're coding in a
> > language that was developed for a PDP-11 minicomputer.
> 
> Developed for the PDP-7, actually.  Contrary to popular belief, the "++" and
> "--" operators were NOT the result of the PDP-11 addressing modes.

Its history is deeper than that. Its part of a family of bracketed languages that started with BCPL which became "B" and then "C".  BCPL was written for the IBM7090.

Dave
G4UGM


From evan at snarc.net  Fri Feb 27 17:22:21 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 18:22:21 -0500
Subject: von Neumann documentary clip
In-Reply-To: <603DE4D1-112A-4A32-8DB0-DD53098C573B@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <9DB5647E-77A5-4037-86B9-34B6C1B7FD01@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54EF4101.6070006@snarc.net> <E0D221D9-0D08-4A11-83B6-A4344D5628FA@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54F0DE84.5030902@snarc.net> <21FC8177-4FC5-48C7-8C3A-089CB6AD7250@cs.ubc.ca>
 <54F0F7A2.7030209@snarc.net> <603DE4D1-112A-4A32-8DB0-DD53098C573B@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <54F0FC2D.3040103@snarc.net>


> Then you're not reading very closely or understanding the article.

I disagree, and I've been part of several conversations with the author 
about this.

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 27 18:48:07 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 16:48:07 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com>
 <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com>

On 02/27/2015 01:23 PM, Roe Peterson wrote:

> APL was very interesting, but every implementation I ever used was
> interpreted, not compiled.  It made for some pretty slow running
> code, even though development was very fast for some things.

Again, it depends on the implementation.  I never noticed that APL was 
particularly slow on a STAR-100, but then,  that architecture suited the 
language.

APL certainly encouraged thinking about things in a different way.  I 
wonder what today would look like if APL was used as a "first language" 
to teach programming.

--Chuck


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Feb 27 18:54:57 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 19:54:57 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com>
 <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <22882BDA-48AA-4352-B5AB-60A6A34F482A@comcast.net>


> On Feb 27, 2015, at 7:48 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> ...
> APL certainly encouraged thinking about things in a different way.  I wonder what today would look like if APL was used as a "first language" to teach programming.

It sure does make a difference.  I learned APL (a little) only recently, using it to do cryptanalys for a course.  That?s how I found OpenAPL, a pretty decent open source implementation.

Languages like Python do the same sort of thing, though not quite to the same extent.

For an even more extreme case, and to get your mind bent a whole lot, find an online copy of the Ph.D. thesis ?Associons and the Closure Statement? by Martin Rem.  It?s from 1976, describing a way to write extremely parallel programs.  As far as I can tell, it still is beyond the state of the art to implement, but it sure is an interesting way to look at algorithms.

	paul



From bpettitx at comcast.net  Fri Feb 27 22:23:43 2015
From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 20:23:43 -0800
Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale
References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>
 <54F03922.9040707@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <C165264FB742438B859BC280C8DDB17C@RosemarysPC>

Jim,

This is actually an IBM Model B typewriter.  It is the older predecesor to 
the Selectric.

And, it is a more reliable and easier to interface device for the enthusiast 
to work with.  The key is finding an encoder/decoder on the underneath of 
the keys.  As far as I know, only Soroban made these devices.  Judging from 
the wires, I would guess that this typer has the Soroban (or equivalent 
unit).

I already have one, badly in need of rubber replacements.  That is the 
problem with older typewriters - the rubber breaks down into dry powder. 
The model B has a power roller of rubber.  It has an individual trip cam for 
each physical key, so loss of rubber means nothing works.

I'd guess that this one is from the mid-1960's or older!  (I spent many a 
long hour trying to keep these machines running, in the late 60's.  Can't 
say they are fond memories.  I do still have all the manuals, and Al has 
copied most of them.)

It would be nice to have for the spares, but I don't think it is worth the 
trip to purchase.  If you do go up, it would be worth $100-150 to me.  But 
don't make the trip just for the typer.

Thanks for letting me know about it.

Billy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jwsmobile" <jws at jwsss.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>; "Billy Pettit" <bpettitx at comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale


> There is an IO Selectric of the early type there.  Anyone know if it is 
> the 1620 console variety?
>
> Hopefully nudging Billy Pettit in case it would work for what he needs for 
> a project.
>
> No idea whether this will work or not, but here is a link to the image:
>
> http://pictures.estatesales.net/823725/18737915/1.jpg
>
> There is a similarly derived link to the Dec books.  it is the last photo 
> / item in the gallery.
>
> I would hate to have to be in Brentwood @ 8am Saturday morning, but, it is 
> not out of the question for the right incentive.
>
> thanks
> Jim
>
>
> On 2/26/2015 11:39 PM, Brendan Shanks wrote:
>> Just a heads up for anyone around Los Angeles, I was browsing some local 
>> estate sale listings and saw one that had a big collection of DEC 
>> handbooks from the late-70s/80s: logic, software, microcomputer, 
>> peripherals, VAX software source book, VAX 
>> Architecture/Hardware/Software.
>>
>>
>> It?s the last two pictures at: 
>> http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725 
>> <http://www.estatesales.net/estate-sales/CA/Los-Angeles/90049/823725>
>>
>>
>> Brendan
>>
>>
> 


From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Feb 27 23:49:24 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 23:49:24 -0600
Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale
In-Reply-To: <C165264FB742438B859BC280C8DDB17C@RosemarysPC>
References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>
 <54F03922.9040707@jwsss.com> <C165264FB742438B859BC280C8DDB17C@RosemarysPC>
Message-ID: <54F156E4.1080300@pico-systems.com>

On 02/27/2015 10:23 PM, Billy Pettit wrote:
> Jim,
>
> This is actually an IBM Model B typewriter.  It is the 
> older predecesor to the Selectric.
>
> And, it is a more reliable and easier to interface device 
> for the enthusiast to work with.  The key is finding an 
> encoder/decoder on the underneath of the keys.  As far as 
> I know, only Soroban made these devices.  Judging from the 
> wires, I would guess that this typer has the Soroban (or 
> equivalent unit).
>
> I already have one, badly in need of rubber replacements.  
> That is the problem with older typewriters - the rubber 
> breaks down into dry powder. The model B has a power 
> roller of rubber.  It has an individual trip cam for each 
> physical key, so loss of rubber means nothing works.
>
Oh, boy!  That sounds just like how a Flexowriter works. I 
had one, and the rubber was
hard and glazed.  You had to exercise all the keys for ten 
minutes any time you wanted
to use it, and then if you didn't use it for a week, you had 
to do it all over again.

Jon

From andy.holt at tesco.net  Sat Feb 28 01:37:51 2015
From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 07:37:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <009c01d052e3$ccea37e0$66bea7a0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <527118529.1452251.1425109071897.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>

> (about B and C)

> Its history is deeper than that. Its part of a family of bracketed languages that started with BCPL which became "B" and then "C".  
> BCPL was written for the IBM7090.

I think you are mistaken about this - BCPL was an implementation language for CPL mainly on the Atlas computers.
It was originated by Martin Richards - who is still a supporter ? see http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mr10/

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 03:05:47 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 02:05:47 -0700
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 27, 2015 12:58 PM, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>
> On 02/27/2015 11:40 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 5.25" Drivetec floppies, the cylinder density is
>>> double that--192 tpi.
>>>
>>> Now consider the hub-clamp mechanism of a 5.25" drive.  I suspect that
with
>>> a bit of care, one can probably get things right most of the time.
>>
>>
>> And the only way Drivetec was able to get that to work was by using an
>> embedded servo for closed-loop positioning.
>
>
> I'm not sure that the "fine" stepper was used other than to bring the
head initially on-track.  That is, I'm not at all sure that it compensated
for any eccentricity.

They wouldn't have needed fullblown embedded servo for that. They went to a
lot of expense to have embedded servo tracking because it was actually
necessary.

96 and 100 tpi was pushing the limits of open-loop positioning with a
crappy clamping system. Had that not been a problem, higher t r ack pitch
drives would have appeared much sooner. The ability to make heads for
narrow tracks was not the limiting factor.

Even ignoring the hub clamping tolerance, while mylar has very good
dimensional stability (and was chosen largely for that reason), it isn't
good enough for 200 tpi open-loop. Even the tempco is a problem, and isn't
sufficiently uniform in all directions. Since it's not good for much more
than 135 tpi, it's fairly critical just at 135 tpi, and it takes only a
minute centering error for tracks to be only partially readable. If you
modified the positioning electronics for microstepping, you *might* be able
to compensate for increased centering error by attempting to read each
track at a range of offsets, getting some sectors at one offset and others
at another, etc. I've done the math only for the case of normal
positioning, and it looks pretty grim; for large sector sizes even the
microstepping probably wouldn't help with much centering error beyond that
already caused by the tolerance of the hub clamping.

Having looked at the necessay geometey, I'll believe that data recovery by
reattaching the hub of a 3.5" floppy is practical only when someone has
succeeded doing it to multiple disks, and then I'll want to know how many
attempts per disk it took, how much time per attempt, amd what (if any)
special apparatus was used.

The angle of hub attachment is a far less critical problem. If a controller
is used that actually cares about the relative postition of the index pulse
when reading data, a one-shot (or digital equivalent) can trivially be used
to introduce a delay in the index pulse to compensate for the angular
position error.

From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 12:21:04 2015
From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 13:21:04 -0500
Subject: Passing of L. Nimoy
Message-ID: <CAMvyYF9mK0jKwM9ZgvbfYxm28Sm2eG+1bBByBd2+YGUM4vrBiw@mail.gmail.com>

  How can one not be impressed by L. Nimoy's portrayal of Mr. Spock?
His character was logical, almost computer-like, but was far more a
portrait of humanity than most care to admit to. Ancient/classic
computing was a hall-mark of Star Trek and Spock personified that
relationship.

Murray  :)

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 03:21:17 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 02:21:17 -0700
Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ01ZY_BcCLNjyctFJCVxoaGkr4sgtOPiAmV8E1YKcRkTTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net>
 <20150227082758.GA9856@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAKtEJ01ZY_BcCLNjyctFJCVxoaGkr4sgtOPiAmV8E1YKcRkTTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRdK-4C2b-_7phgEASvFTQBDkyGWomopTNU142W2tyA3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 27, 2015 12:57 PM, "Ian S. King" <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
>  I believe the PDP-1 used a Flexowriter.  I suspect DEC would have used an
> IBM product over Ken Olsen's dead body.  :-)

The PDP-1 console typewriter is an IBM (model B IIRC) modified by Soroban
Engineering for use as an I/O device. It was horribly unreliable, so DEC
didn't use the same for the PDP-4 and later. CHM has copies of some angry
correspondence between DEC and Soroban.

Some PDP-1 sites used Flexowriters for offline operations, and it was
possible to add them as additional I/O, but they weren't compatible with
the PDP-1 console interface.

I think some other PDP-1 I/O options were rebadged IBM equipment with
DEC-built interfaces, but I don't have details of the specific models. DEC
didn't have the resources to build all the equipment, and just engineering
and building all of the interfaces to the OEM devices nearly bankrupted
them. They optimistically put a wide variety of not-yet-designed I/O
equipment on the price list, and the salesmen sold *all* of them to
Lawrence-Livermore. Apparently some of those DEC options only ever sold one
or two units for the entire line of 18-bit machines.

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 03:23:00 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 09:23:00 -0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <527118529.1452251.1425109071897.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
References: <009c01d052e3$ccea37e0$66bea7a0$@gmail.com>
 <527118529.1452251.1425109071897.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <020201d05338$25d45210$717cf630$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ANDY
> HOLT
> Sent: 28 February 2015 07:38
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
> 
> > (about B and C)
> 
> > Its history is deeper than that. Its part of a family of bracketed languages
> that started with BCPL which became "B" and then "C".
> > BCPL was written for the IBM7090.
> 
> I think you are mistaken about this - BCPL was an implementation language
> for CPL mainly on the Atlas computers.
> It was originated by Martin Richards - who is still a supporter ? see
> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mr10/

I don't think we are in total disagreement. I also thought it was written at Cambridge for Atlas but the the Wiki page:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCPL

says the first implementation was when Martin was working at MIT for the 7090.  

As WIKIs can be wrong, I googled around a bit, and that turned up the MIT TX-2 BCPL manual at BITSAVERS :-

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/tx-2/TX-2_BCPL_Reference_Manual_May69.pdf

which says that in 1969 it was running on Project MAC but not yet on the Atlas, and also on the GE635 which later became the Honeywell 6000 and Level 66 series, on which I had my first baptism of fire with structured languages, being introduced to "B". I also think this was the same "B" that ran on Xerox kit, as I believe they were also used at MIT...

<<<extract from TX-2 BCPL manual>>>>

1 .0 Introduction
=============

BCPL is a general purpose recursive programming language which is particularly suitable for large non-numerical problems in which machine independence is an important factor. It was originally designed as a vehicle for compiler construction and has, so far, been used in three compilers. 

BCPL is currently implemented and running on eTSS at Project MAC, the GE 635 under GE COS and on a KDF 9 at Oxford. Other implementations are under construction for MULTICS, the ICT 1900 series I Atlas I the System 360, and the TX-2. The language was originally developed and implemented by M. Richards at Project MAC.


<<<end of extract from TX-2 BCPL manual>>>>

Dave Wade
G4UGM


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 03:40:38 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 09:40:38 -0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <527118529.1452251.1425109071897.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
References: <009c01d052e3$ccea37e0$66bea7a0$@gmail.com>
 <527118529.1452251.1425109071897.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <026501d0533a$9c0b9e00$d422da00$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ANDY
> HOLT
> Sent: 28 February 2015 07:38
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
> 
> > (about B and C)
> 
> > Its history is deeper than that. Its part of a family of bracketed languages
> that started with BCPL which became "B" and then "C".
> > BCPL was written for the IBM7090.
> 
> I think you are mistaken about this - BCPL was an implementation language
> for CPL mainly on the Atlas computers.
> It was originated by Martin Richards - who is still a supporter ? see
> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mr10/

And of course the 1967 BCPL manual for BCPL is on Dennis Ritchie's "in memoriam" home page...

http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/index.html

which in many ways explains why BCPL was such an influence on K&R when they invented "B" and "C". I hadn't realized that Martin had worked at MIT or that BCPL was used there. I had assumed it was an "obscure" Cambridge thing. Apparently not...

Dave Wade
Still looking for any remnants of a "B" compiler ....


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Feb 28 04:59:46 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:59:46 +0100
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com>
 <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-27 23:16, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/27/2015 02:03 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
>> I'm not aware of any ambiguity WRT function calls, but you do have a
>> ambiguity WRT the same argument being used multiple times (incluiding if
>> you have increments on it) as the order of evaluation of any part of a
>> statement in C is undefined except for some special cases.
>
> Yes, and that's just it--it's an operator with an implied LHS, that is,
> it not only returns a value, but alters its argument.  In languages
> preceding it, I'm not aware of such an operator.

Well. You could just as well talk about the assignment operator in C...

>> Not that Unix was ever written in B anyway, but I believe that B did
>> exist for the PDP-7.
>
> But was the "B" used by Xerox in the 80s, the same language?

Without knowing for sure, I doubt there are several different languages 
called "B". I'm sure there are implementation differences, though.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Feb 28 05:02:37 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:02:37 +0100
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <009c01d052e3$ccea37e0$66bea7a0$@gmail.com>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01d052e3$ccea37e0$66bea7a0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54F1A04D.50404@update.uu.se>

On 2015-02-28 00:19, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
>> Sent: 27 February 2015 19:53
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> Subject: Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:27 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>>> It seems to me to be very strange that today we're coding in a
>>> language that was developed for a PDP-11 minicomputer.
>>
>> Developed for the PDP-7, actually.  Contrary to popular belief, the "++" and
>> "--" operators were NOT the result of the PDP-11 addressing modes.
>
> Its history is deeper than that. Its part of a family of bracketed languages that started with BCPL which became "B" and then "C".  BCPL was written for the IBM7090.

And here I was sitting, thinking they all originated with Algol...

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Sat Feb 28 05:35:06 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:35:06 +0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com>
 <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com>
 <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk>

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 04:48:07PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
[...]
> APL certainly encouraged thinking about things in a different way. I wonder
> what today would look like if APL was used as a "first language" to teach
> programming.

It's a special-purpose language for mathematical manipulation. As such, it's
not actually a very good choice for a first language.

When I was a wee nipper, everybody's first language was BASIC because that's
what came with the machine. These days, it's more likely to be Java or perhaps
Python. Python's the better of the two and supports similar manipulations to
APL. For example, Python forms of the examples in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_%28programming_language%29#Design are:

>>> n = [4, 5, 6, 7]
>>> n
[4, 5, 6, 7]
>>> map(lambda x: x+4, n)
[8, 9, 10, 11]
>>> sum(n)
22
>>> m = sum([i + 3 for i in range(1,5)]); m
22

And in Scala, which runs on the JVM and thus interoperates with Java:

scala> val n = Vector(4, 5, 6, 7)
n: scala.collection.immutable.Vector[Int] = Vector(4, 5, 6, 7)

scala> n
res0: scala.collection.immutable.Vector[Int] = Vector(4, 5, 6, 7)

scala> n map (_+3)
res1: scala.collection.immutable.Vector[Int] = Vector(7, 8, 9, 10)

scala> n.sum
res2: Int = 22

scala> val m = 1 to 4 map (_ + 3) sum; m
warning: there was one feature warning; re-run with -feature for details
m: Int = 22
res3: Int = 22

The "feature warning" is that I used postfix "sum", which is an ambiguous parse
in some cases. It wants me to write it as the uglier (1 to 4).map(_ + 3).sum

Functional programming idioms have crept into many OO and imperative languages
to give them APL-like power. APL's cryptic syntax is not a feature; if you want
that, you know where to find Perl or Clojure.


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sat Feb 28 08:01:00 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 09:01:00 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54F1A04D.50404@update.uu.se>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01d052e3$ccea37e0$66bea7a0$@gmail.com> <54F1A04D.50404@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <7BDB2235-65D9-462B-9F46-A998EB786D69@comcast.net>


> On Feb 28, 2015, at 6:02 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
> 
> On 2015-02-28 00:19, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
>>> Sent: 27 February 2015 19:53
>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>>> Subject: Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:27 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>>>> It seems to me to be very strange that today we're coding in a
>>>> language that was developed for a PDP-11 minicomputer.
>>> 
>>> Developed for the PDP-7, actually.  Contrary to popular belief, the "++" and
>>> "--" operators were NOT the result of the PDP-11 addressing modes.
>> 
>> Its history is deeper than that. Its part of a family of bracketed languages that started with BCPL which became "B" and then "C".  BCPL was written for the IBM7090.
> 
> And here I was sitting, thinking they all originated with Algol?

They did, of course; Algol after all is the first block structured language, and most block structured languages since then copied its approach to name and data scope.  (Not all; for example, Python has scope rules that are noticeably different.)

Then there was Algol 68, which in spite of its name is not all that close to Algol 60.  It added a number of innovations that subsequently were adopted by C++.  The iostreams mechanism is a rather obvious example (I believe Stroustrup points out the Algol 68 heritage explicitly in one of his books).

	paul



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Feb 28 10:24:01 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:24:01 -0500
Subject: ISWIM/Python/Haskell - Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <7BDB2235-65D9-462B-9F46-A998EB786D69@comcast.net>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01d052e3$ccea37e0$66bea7a0$@gmail.com> <54F1A04D.50404@update.uu.se>
 <7BDB2235-65D9-462B-9F46-A998EB786D69@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <54F1EBA1.70803@telegraphics.com.au>

On 28/02/15 9:01 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Feb 28, 2015, at 6:02 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>>...
>> And here I was sitting, thinking they all originated with Algol?
>
> They did, of course; Algol after all is the first block structured
language, and most block structured languages since then copied its
approach to name and data scope. (Not all; for example, Python has scope
rules that are noticeably different.)

Python's lexical blocks follow the "offside rule" (as do Haskell's). 
This rule was originally described by Peter Landin in his 1966 paper 
"The Next 700 Programming Languages". (Wikipedia has more on ISWIM and 
the offside rule.)

--Toby


>
> Then there was Algol 68, ...

> 	paul
>
>
>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Feb 28 10:47:49 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 08:47:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com> <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com> <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150228080756.G7781@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 28 Feb 2015, Eric Smith wrote:
> modified the positioning electronics for microstepping, you *might* be able
> to compensate for increased centering error by attempting to read each
> track at a range of offsets, getting some sectors at one offset and others
> at another, etc. I've done the math only for the case of normal
> positioning, and it looks pretty grim;

Good point.
For 512 byte sectors, the runout error would be minor (a small
fraction of the min/max error o0f the track) within each sector.

> for large sector sizes even the
> microstepping probably wouldn't help with much centering error beyond that
> already caused by the tolerance of the hub clamping.

Still a small fraction of the total error even with 1024 byte sectors.
But, not as easy with something such as Amiga, where the entire track is
read, and then sectors parsed in software.
But, that technique could be considered with a track read (ala WD179x or
flux transition hardware), and then identify "good" and "bad" sections of
the track with multiple reads, and splice together "good" sections to
recreate the track.


> The angle of hub attachment is a far less critical problem. If a controller
> is used that actually cares about the relative postition of the index pulse
> when reading data, a one-shot (or digital equivalent) can trivially be used
> to introduce a delay in the index pulse to compensate for the angular
> position error.

For READ (who would want to WRITE to a damaged disk??), even the NEC765
can READ with the index puls blocked.  'course then you have a few trivial
hassles, such as errors being misreported as 128/"Drive Not Ready"

Would disclosing fluid be adequate for corrcting the rotational error?

It would be nice to have the index pulse.  Using the premise behind the
radial alignment tests of the Dysan Digital Diagnostic disk, it would be
possible to calculate the direction of the radial/runout misalignment,
and be able to keep track of which sectors are out of position.
IFF the sector sequence of the disk is known, and consistent from track to
track, (not Apple][ and Commodore64) then micropositioning based on one
track could be applied to the entire disk.

If the micropositioning could be done in real time, then correction could
be applied for a "clean" read, or, if not, it would still make it possible
to know which sectors will be readable at each microposition and read
those sectors from every track before again modifying the position offset.


I did, on a very few occasions, deliberately take a 5.25" drive out of
radial alignment to read disks created on a misaligned drive.  If I were
still actively doing such, I would rig up a way to calibrate (maybe with a
micrometer head?.  On one group of 8" disks, light finger pressure pushing
the head further towards the spindle made the difference for successful
reads!
Of couse, 48TPI is quite a bit easier than 135, and access to the
positioner is easier on big drives.


So, if radial runout is the problem, read all of the sectors that can be
read on the disk, throw the radial alignment out slightly, read all track,
throw it out the other direction, . . .
And spend a ridiculous amount of time on a single disk.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From rob at bitscience.ca  Sat Feb 28 10:56:39 2015
From: rob at bitscience.ca (Robert Ferguson)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 08:56:39 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <026501d0533a$9c0b9e00$d422da00$@gmail.com>
References: <009c01d052e3$ccea37e0$66bea7a0$@gmail.com>
 <527118529.1452251.1425109071897.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <026501d0533a$9c0b9e00$d422da00$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0EA32A96-759E-4EC6-9663-56BFAFAA0056@bitscience.ca>

On Feb 28, 2015, at 1:40 AM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Still looking for any remnants of a "B" compiler ....
> 

Thinkage.ca will happily sell you one for GCOS. It is excellent in many respects.

http://www.thinkage.ca/english/gcos/product-uwtools.shtml

From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk  Sat Feb 28 03:12:38 2015
From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Stephen Merrony)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 09:12:38 +0000
Subject: My Data General MV/2500 is Up-and-Running
Message-ID: <54F18686.8080101@stephenmerrony.co.uk>

I am delighted to report that after a long time, and with help from all 
over the world, I have finally got my MV/2500DC up-and-running.

Some details are on my blog 
http://www.stephenmerrony.co.uk/dg/2015/02/Disk-Replacement-Success.html

Now I am resurrecting my DG Assembler skills to bootstrap a file 
transfer program onto the machine...

Thanks to everyone who has helped.

Steve
-- 
/Stephen Merrony
http://www.stephenmerrony.co.uk//dg


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sat Feb 28 04:45:58 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:45:58 +0100
Subject: My Data General MV/2500 is Up-and-Running
In-Reply-To: <54F18686.8080101@stephenmerrony.co.uk>
References: <54F18686.8080101@stephenmerrony.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20150228104558.GA11783@Update.UU.SE>

Hi

you seem to have some issues with your blog. links from blog post "what did i get" 
goes to some sort of advertisment. Have you been hacked?

Anyway. I have a mv/2000DC that I'm not sure what to do with. This is the very 
machine at its previous owner:

http://www.foxdata.com/blog/category/data_general_minicomputers/data_general_mv2000dc/

I got some tapes with it that you might find interresting. Perhaps you want the 
whole machine?

It is in Sweden.

Regards,
Pontus

On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 09:12:38AM +0000, Stephen Merrony wrote:
> I am delighted to report that after a long time, and with help from
> all over the world, I have finally got my MV/2500DC up-and-running.
> 
> Some details are on my blog http://www.stephenmerrony.co.uk/dg/2015/02/Disk-Replacement-Success.html
> 
> Now I am resurrecting my DG Assembler skills to bootstrap a file
> transfer program onto the machine...
> 
> Thanks to everyone who has helped.
> 
> Steve
> -- 
> /Stephen Merrony
> http://www.stephenmerrony.co.uk//dg
> 

From rob at bitscience.ca  Sat Feb 28 11:19:54 2015
From: rob at bitscience.ca (Robert Ferguson)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 09:19:54 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk>
References: <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com>
 <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com>
 <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca>


> On Feb 28, 2015, at 3:35 AM, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:
> 
> APL's cryptic syntax is not a feature; if you want
> that, you know where to find Perl or Clojure.

Your homework assignment is to read Ken Iverson?s Turing Award lecture, write a book report, and bring it to class for next time.

http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~jzhu/csc326/readings/iverson.pdf

(or if you prefer it in HTML, http://www.jsoftware.com/papers/tot.htm)


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 28 11:57:45 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 09:57:45 -0800
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54F20199.4030605@sydex.com>

On 02/28/2015 01:05 AM, Eric Smith wrote:

> Having looked at the necessay geometey, I'll believe that data recovery by
> reattaching the hub of a 3.5" floppy is practical only when someone has
> succeeded doing it to multiple disks, and then I'll want to know how many
> attempts per disk it took, how much time per attempt, amd what (if any)
> special apparatus was used.

Without attempting this yourself and relating your own experience, how 
can you verify this belief?

I've examined the separated parts of a 3.5" cookie and two things are 
immediately apparent to me.  The first is that the metal hub's profile 
is not straight-edged, but conical, so any re-attachment would be 
self-centering.  The second is that the residue of the adhesive used to 
attach the media to the hub is quite visible, so you do have a 
positioning guide.

In any case, if done carefully, and preferably with another hub that has 
the mirror profile of the first, I don't imagine any placement error 
should be worse than that of the square spindle hole in the hub itself.

Since you require proof of "several" 3.5" attempts being successful, 
I'll attempt this when there's money involved for my time.

Until then, we're both only speculating.  If I attempt to demonstrate my 
assertion and succeed, I'm getting the feeling that you'll still be an 
unbeliever.

Did the forensics community or the NML ever comment on the subject?

--Chuck



From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 12:14:24 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 13:14:24 -0500
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FFBFC69023D548639E6EAE9DFE531218@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Smith" <spacewar at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 4:05 AM
Subject: Re: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not
attached to media.


> On Feb 27, 2015 12:58 PM, "Chuck Guzis"
> <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
...
>> I'm not sure that the "fine" stepper was used
>> other than to bring the head initially 
>> on-track.
>> That is, I'm not at all sure that it 
>> compensated
>> for any eccentricity.
>
> They wouldn't have needed full-blown embedded
> servo for that. They went to a
> lot of expense to have embedded servo tracking
> because it was actually
> necessary.

----- Reply -----

Are you saying that it actually stepped in and out
during a rotation to follow the eccentricity?

m


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 12:23:16 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 18:23:16 -0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <0EA32A96-759E-4EC6-9663-56BFAFAA0056@bitscience.ca>
References: <009c01d052e3$ccea37e0$66bea7a0$@gmail.com>
 <527118529.1452251.1425109071897.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <026501d0533a$9c0b9e00$d422da00$@gmail.com>
 <0EA32A96-759E-4EC6-9663-56BFAFAA0056@bitscience.ca>
Message-ID: <004001d05383$9efd5c90$dcf815b0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert
> Ferguson
> Sent: 28 February 2015 16:57
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Rich kids are into COBOL
> 
> On Feb 28, 2015, at 1:40 AM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Still looking for any remnants of a "B" compiler ....
> >
> 
> Thinkage.ca will happily sell you one for GCOS. It is excellent in many
> respects.
> 
> http://www.thinkage.ca/english/gcos/product-uwtools.shtml

I am sure it is. Sadly I no longer have access to GCOS. When I did I made
extensive use of the Bell Labs "B" compiler which worked just fine.

Dave


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 28 12:43:36 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 10:43:36 -0800
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <FFBFC69023D548639E6EAE9DFE531218@310e2>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>
 <FFBFC69023D548639E6EAE9DFE531218@310e2>
Message-ID: <54F20C58.8010308@sydex.com>

On 02/28/2015 10:14 AM, Mike Stein wrote:

> Are you saying that it actually stepped in and out
> during a rotation to follow the eccentricity?

I'm saying that it's very unlikely that it did.  The OEM manual makes no 
reference to such behavior.  So, getting on-track was likely a matter of 
reading an embedded servo mark or two, tweaking the "fine" stepper and 
signaling end-of-seek.

--Chuck

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 13:17:41 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 14:17:41 -0500
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>
 <FFBFC69023D548639E6EAE9DFE531218@310e2> <54F20C58.8010308@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <B946FD3226F4473684C873CD45D5D001@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: <General at classiccmp.org>; 
"Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not 
attched to media.


> On 02/28/2015 10:14 AM, Mike Stein wrote:
>
>> Are you saying that it actually stepped in and 
>> out
>> during a rotation to follow the eccentricity?
>
> I'm saying that it's very unlikely that it did. 
> The OEM manual makes no reference to such 
> behavior.  So, getting on-track was likely a 
> matter of reading an embedded servo mark or two, 
> tweaking the "fine" stepper and signaling 
> end-of-seek.
>
> --Chuck

----- Reply ----

No, I agree with you, Chuck; it seemed to be what 
Eric was suggesting though.

BTW, I just tried gluing a cookie back to the hub 
with superglue; no problem.

Couldn't read it of course, presumably because 
it's not aligned to the index; also, maybe mine is 
a different make from yours but the hub isn't 
conical and there is a tiny bit of radial play.

So in that respect I have to agree with Eric that 
reading data off a cookie that's been reattached 
to the hub is a pretty iffy proposition, but if 
anyone does succeed I'm sure we'd all love to read 
about it.

m


From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Sat Feb 28 13:46:56 2015
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 19:46:56 +0000
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca>
References: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com>
 <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com>
 <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com> <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk>
 <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca>
Message-ID: <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk>

On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 09:19:54AM -0800, Robert Ferguson wrote:
>> On Feb 28, 2015, at 3:35 AM, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:
>> APL's cryptic syntax is not a feature; if you want that, you know where to
>> find Perl or Clojure.
> Your homework assignment is to read Ken Iverson?s Turing Award lecture, write
> a book report, and bring it to class for next time.

Oh, alright then :)

I have skimmed quite a lot of it as it's quite long and I don't actually care
to learn APL, but it has a few central points that fit in a few pages, with 50
pages of exposition:

a) Mathematical notation is inconsistent and the meaning varies depending on
   topic;
b) "Most programming languages are decidedly inferior to mathematical
   notation";
c) It is possible to unify the two, this is actually desirable, and APL
   delivers;
d) Similar problems should have similar solutions, and language features should
   be orthogonal and composable in obvious ways; and
e) Brevity is of the essence.

It is of particular note that this lecture was given way back in 1979, a time
closer to the invention of the computer than the present day. It is thus
(rightly) criticising the state of the art in the early days of computers. The
state of the art has moved on somewhat since, even if most modern-day
programmers still seem to be stuck in the BASIC mindset.

Point a) is trivially supported: Newton and Leibnitz invented different
notation for calculus, for example.

b) is utterly subjective with no evidence presented and is clearly a case of
[citation needed]. The author evidently believes that programming languages are
decidedly inferior for mathematics which is very much a case of "well, duh,
that's not what they're designed for!"

c) is getting into the meat of it.

Where the author says "mathematical notation", what is really meant is the
subset of said notation which describes arithmetical expressions, and thus
which can be computed by rote. Similarly, expressions are a subset of
programming languages. It follows that where mathematics and programming
intersect, one can use the same notation.

It is certainly the case that expressions in many programming languages do
resemble mathematics: 1 + 2 means the same in both, * is used for
multiplication without incident, and the operations have the same rules for
associativity, distributivity, and so on. It is also the case that this is a
desirable trait since it reduces the learning curve when approaching a new
discipline. APL itself uses + and * to denote addition and multiplication, but
then wanders off in its own direction, no doubt much to the bemusement of
mathematicians and programmers alike.

APL fails as a programming language because it is quite unlike more familiar
programming languages, and doesn't offer anything new. It may have been novel
in 1979 but I doubt it was even then. It requires special support from the
environment due to its non-ASCII character set, adding further friction.

APL fails as a mathematical notation because it is quite unlike more familiar
mathematical notation, and doesn't offer anything new. Indeed, it seems to fall
short in that it only concerns itself with arithmetical expressions and not
mathematics as a whole.

It's very much like Esperanto. The British and the French don't bother to learn
Esperanto because it's too much work for too little gain, so we just pick up
what we need of each other's language, and all is well.

d) is another case of "well, duh!", and is hardly unique to APL. And Lisp
predates APL by six years...

We finally get to e). The dense APL examples very much supports my opinion that
the language is unnecessarily obtuse. However, I'll dig out a more contemporary
example:

Some programming languages (C++, Perl, Python, etc) allow operator overloading,
i.e. that they allow programmers to define functions for user-defined types
which mimic arithmetical operators. For example, one could overload * to
perform matrix multiplication. Some go even further (Scala, PostgreSQL) and
allow more arbitrary sequences of characters as operators and not just those
combinations that are in the base language. And others (Java) just forbid it as
a bad idea.

When given operator overloading, library designers go hog wild and invent
Domain Specific Languages (DSLs) which contort the language by eliminating
parentheses, adding no-op noise words to make it more English-like, and various
other abuses that are somewhat against the spirit of the language. This results
in very pretty-looking portfolio examples for the project's github page, but
also an API that turns out to be somewhat brittle and error-prone as the human
author and the compiler have different ideas of what is valid code and what it
means. Whenever I encounter this sort of thing, I start to think that Java's
designers may have been onto something after all.

Two important traits of programming languages is that it be easy to describe an
algorithm to a computer without lots of trial-and-error, and that the program
be readable understandable by other people (or the original author months later
when they've forgotten what they did) and the meaning obvious. APL fails
spectacularly on both points. So do a lot of languages popular today, but that
doesn't forgive APL for actually believing this to be a desirable trait.


From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 14:07:20 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:07:20 -0500
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk>
References: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com>
 <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com>
 <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com> <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk>
 <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca>
 <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfBNCJevMRGPztg-5j7BafwObJdUxgbO_HOafiP8qXPubQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:
>
> Oh, alright then :)
> [...]


This is fantastic; I can't wait for _Corlett's_Treatise_on_Ruby_

From rob at bitscience.ca  Sat Feb 28 15:03:50 2015
From: rob at bitscience.ca (Robert Ferguson)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 13:03:50 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk>
References: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com>
 <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com>
 <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk>
 <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca>
 <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <AD78D9BE-A84E-4273-86D4-67EC662D9ADE@bitscience.ca>

On Feb 28, 2015, at 11:46 AM, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 09:19:54AM -0800, Robert Ferguson wrote:
>>> On Feb 28, 2015, at 3:35 AM, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:
>>> APL's cryptic syntax is not a feature; if you want that, you know where to
>>> find Perl or Clojure.
>> Your homework assignment is to read Ken Iverson?s Turing Award lecture, write
>> a book report, and bring it to class for next time.
> 
> Oh, alright then :)
> 
> I have skimmed quite a lot of it as it's quite long and I don't actually care
> to learn APL, but it has a few central points that fit in a few pages, with 50
> pages of exposition:


Well done.

I look forward to your thoughtful and modest critiques of other Turing award winners life's work.

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sat Feb 28 14:04:04 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 21:04:04 +0100
Subject: My Data General MV/2500 is Up-and-Running
In-Reply-To: <20150228104558.GA11783@Update.UU.SE>
References: <54F18686.8080101@stephenmerrony.co.uk>
 <20150228104558.GA11783@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <20150228200404.GA31267@Update.UU.SE>


oops, this was supposed to go offlist.

not that it matters much.

/P

On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:45:58AM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> Hi
> 
> you seem to have some issues with your blog. links from blog post "what did i get" 
> goes to some sort of advertisment. Have you been hacked?
> 
> Anyway. I have a mv/2000DC that I'm not sure what to do with. This is the very 
> machine at its previous owner:
> 
> http://www.foxdata.com/blog/category/data_general_minicomputers/data_general_mv2000dc/
> 
> I got some tapes with it that you might find interresting. Perhaps you want the 
> whole machine?
> 
> It is in Sweden.
> 
> Regards,
> Pontus
> 
> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 09:12:38AM +0000, Stephen Merrony wrote:
> > I am delighted to report that after a long time, and with help from
> > all over the world, I have finally got my MV/2500DC up-and-running.
> > 
> > Some details are on my blog http://www.stephenmerrony.co.uk/dg/2015/02/Disk-Replacement-Success.html
> > 
> > Now I am resurrecting my DG Assembler skills to bootstrap a file
> > transfer program onto the machine...
> > 
> > Thanks to everyone who has helped.
> > 
> > Steve
> > -- 
> > /Stephen Merrony
> > http://www.stephenmerrony.co.uk//dg
> > 

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 14:20:55 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:20:55 -0500
Subject: TSX Plus...
In-Reply-To: <CAMDAk4cU6+o2YOnRB=w=LCYHjG2aFEH-N9JKNCtKpf-iXb8aCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20140303201107.78bb62b2@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <CAMDAk4cU6+o2YOnRB=w=LCYHjG2aFEH-N9JKNCtKpf-iXb8aCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfABbEZAZxFOnoSxrmtpGmMFH_7_ArgLBRbNYujL2UgMXA@mail.gmail.com>

TSX-Plus adepts,
  Was wondering, since I've been in the market for a good pdp11 word
processing software and TSX apparently comes with LEX-11, I hope that'll
fill the need for me.  Is it able to handle a few users at a time all
running LEX-11?  Also, is there network connectivity or some automated
mechanism for transferring, preferably to some kind of unix?

  I remember reading a mention of Pascal on TSX.  Would it be feasible to
teach a little vintage Pascal seminar on this sort of platform?  i.e. will
it support multiuser simultaneous editing and compiling of individual
source trees?  I have a number of nerd friends who would really enjoy
coming over and messing with something like this.

Exciting!
--jake


On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com>
> wrote:
>
> > After stating that I expected TSX Plus to be available generally to the
> > collector community this week, I have had a number of folks request
> > access to TSX plus via private FTP.
> >
> > Please be a bit patient and wait for me to post it to a new website I'm
> > in the process of creating. I now have full agreement from S&H to
> > generally release TSX Plus, COBOL, etc., to the collector community via
> > a simple download.
> >
>

From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk  Sat Feb 28 15:28:58 2015
From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 21:28:58 +0000
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <B946FD3226F4473684C873CD45D5D001@310e2>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>
 <FFBFC69023D548639E6EAE9DFE531218@310e2> <54F20C58.8010308@sydex.com>
 <B946FD3226F4473684C873CD45D5D001@310e2>
Message-ID: <54F2331A.30407@philpem.me.uk>

On 28/02/15 19:17, Mike Stein wrote:
> No, I agree with you, Chuck; it seemed to be what Eric was suggesting
> though.
> 
> BTW, I just tried gluing a cookie back to the hub with superglue; no
> problem.
> 
> Couldn't read it of course, presumably because it's not aligned to the
> index; also, maybe mine is a different make from yours but the hub isn't
> conical and there is a tiny bit of radial play.
> 
> So in that respect I have to agree with Eric that reading data off a
> cookie that's been reattached to the hub is a pretty iffy proposition,
> but if anyone does succeed I'm sure we'd all love to read about it.

I'm very curious what the magnetic trace data looks like, whether you're
getting anything valid at all. Do you have access to a DiscFerret,
Catweasel or Kryoflux type disc reader?

I'd be inclined to do a non-indexed read, then bash together some code
to realign things about the "real" index. If you know what the offset
is, you can just shift the flux transitions (think "ring buffer" or
"barrel shifter").

Cheers,
-- 
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 28 15:38:23 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 13:38:23 -0800
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk>
References: <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com>
 <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com>
 <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <54F2354F.9070507@sydex.com>

On 02/28/2015 03:35 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:

> It's a special-purpose language for mathematical manipulation. As such, it's
> not actually a very good choice for a first language.

My point was that arrays and matrices are an intrinsic part of the 
language and somewhat unlike arrays in BASIC or FORTRAN, which are 
heavily oriented toward scalars.

Neil Lincoln once told me that he trained his own children and wife to 
program APL and they found it to be quite natural.

I'm certain that others can make similar claims about the suitability of 
Lisp or its derivatives.

--Chuck



From spacewar at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 16:44:51 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:44:51 -0700
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <54F20199.4030605@sydex.com>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F20199.4030605@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSSPpnW5fHzW7mLYGCuv_-K7MwMvCfWv5SauNZBrvnsvg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> Without attempting this yourself and relating your own experience, how can
> you verify this belief?

Using algebra and geometry it is readily apparent that as little as
0.1 mm of centering error will cause problems. I don't have to do any
experiment to determine that.

Whether the hub reattachment is self-centering to within 0.1 mm is
another question which I don't have an answer to. I rather doubt it,
as there was no reason to engineer it to self-center to any
significantly better tolerance than needed to ensure that the medium
doesn't hit the edges of the casing. However, not having done any
experiment or analysis of that aspect I'll readily concede that
there's some chance that it's good enough.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 16:56:09 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:56:09 -0700
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <FFBFC69023D548639E6EAE9DFE531218@310e2>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>
 <FFBFC69023D548639E6EAE9DFE531218@310e2>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSyepmTXdEhUmWyhvgXZ3HTYLqHEcQdkaOhvxXSMe7SEQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:14 AM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> Are you saying that it actually stepped in and out
> during a rotation to follow the eccentricity?

Yes, it did fully closed-loop servo positioning, with embedded servo
bursts in all inter-sector gaps. That's why they have not one, but TWO
stepper motors for positioning, with a mechanical adder mechanism.
The coarse positioning stepper doesn't have the resolution needed for
track following.

This can also be seen in their US patent 4,630,145:

    "As the track densities are increased, the misalignment error may
approach or become larger than the track spacing. The noise-to-signal
ratio then becomes very large and the desired signal cannot be read."

    "The second stepper motor 46 is stepped by track following control
circuits operating in a closed loop."

    "It is yet another object of this invention to step the head
towards the track centerline by a predetermined discrete fine
increment equal to the maximum amount of track eccentricity per
sector."

They didn't do this stuff because it was cool and they wanted to make
the drive more expensive. They did it because it was necessary to make
it work reliably at all.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 16:57:42 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:57:42 -0700
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <54F20C58.8010308@sydex.com>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>
 <FFBFC69023D548639E6EAE9DFE531218@310e2>
 <54F20C58.8010308@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSuLRY7FiXn1q_JZ3yJO6dH+VtTb8_v_Fni1=cannOQgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> The OEM manual makes no
> reference to such behavior.

I haven't seen this OEM manual, but OEM manuals rarely explain in
detail how everything works and (for the purpose of this discussion)
why.  OEM manuals are intended to explain how to use the drive, and
the details of the operation of the track following servo are not
necessary for that.

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 18:00:54 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 19:00:54 -0500
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>
 <FFBFC69023D548639E6EAE9DFE531218@310e2>
 <CAFrGgTSyepmTXdEhUmWyhvgXZ3HTYLqHEcQdkaOhvxXSMe7SEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6ACDB7A5F2194FFFA9EF5ADFE2322832@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Smith" <spacewar at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not 
attched to media.


> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:14 AM, Mike Stein 
> <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Are you saying that it actually stepped in and 
>> out
>> during a rotation to follow the eccentricity?
>
> Yes, it did fully closed-loop servo positioning, 
> with embedded servo
> bursts in all inter-sector gaps. That's why they 
> have not one, but TWO
> stepper motors for positioning, with a 
> mechanical adder mechanism.
> The coarse positioning stepper doesn't have the 
> resolution needed for
> track following.
>
> This can also be seen in their US patent 
> 4,630,145:
>
...

I knew they had two steppers but didn't know that 
they could actually step every sector if 
necessary.

I'm convinced; pretty impressive, especially if it 
was implemented on a 3.5" drive.

How much did these drives cost?

Thanks!

m 


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 28 18:09:56 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 16:09:56 -0800
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSuLRY7FiXn1q_JZ3yJO6dH+VtTb8_v_Fni1=cannOQgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>
 <FFBFC69023D548639E6EAE9DFE531218@310e2> <54F20C58.8010308@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTSuLRY7FiXn1q_JZ3yJO6dH+VtTb8_v_Fni1=cannOQgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54F258D4.8050701@sydex.com>

On 02/28/2015 02:57 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> I haven't seen this OEM manual, but OEM manuals rarely explain in
> detail how everything works and (for the purpose of this discussion)
> why.  OEM manuals are intended to explain how to use the drive, and
> the details of the operation of the track following servo are not
> necessary for that.

Well, again, I have my doubts.

Take early 100 tpi drives, for example, say the Micropolis 1015 SS drives.

Initially, they did not "spin" the disk as the door was being closed, 
which could cause the disk hub clamp to severely mangle the early DSDD 
disks--and this was before the reinforcing rings appeared.  We ran into 
the problem quite often, with the wrinkled hub area.  While a severely 
mis-registered clamp would cause read errors, I don't think we ever lost 
data by simply carefully re-clamping the disk in the drive.

Note that the early Micropolis units did not use the Shugart "epanding 
cone" clamp, but rather one of their own design that consisted of a 
projecting hub piece that fit a recessed piece on the other side of the 
drive, sandwiching the media between the two.  What do you suppose that 
the mis-registration would have been in that case?

I've got several Drivetek drives, including the later Kodak versions, 
and I can't ever recall seeing the "flag" on the fine positioner move 
once the drive was on-track.  So, while it may have been possible to 
compensate for eccentricity, I'm not aware that it was done.

Since neither you nor I are willing to spend the time to investigate 
real-world samples, I think the discussion is academic at best.

--Chuck



From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 18:29:40 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 19:29:40 -0500
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>
 <FFBFC69023D548639E6EAE9DFE531218@310e2> <54F20C58.8010308@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTSuLRY7FiXn1q_JZ3yJO6dH+VtTb8_v_Fni1=cannOQgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F258D4.8050701@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <FFA878BF24C0471983A47BE80DA28B38@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: <General at classiccmp.org>; 
"Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not 
attched to media.


...
> I've got several Drivetek drives, including the 
> later Kodak versions, and I can't ever recall 
> seeing the "flag" on the fine positioner move 
> once the drive was on-track.  So, while it may 
> have been possible to compensate for 
> eccentricity, I'm not aware that it was done.
>
> Since neither you nor I are willing to spend the 
> time to investigate real-world samples, I think 
> the discussion is academic at best.
>
> --Chuck

----- Reply -----

Well, it could be that all your disks were 
perfectly centered or it was such a small and/or 
quick adjustment that it wouldn't be easily 
visible; on the other hand, just because it was 
possible and patented doesn't mean that it was 
actually implemented in that way or even proved 
necessary in real world use.

As you say, unless someone spends the time to 
scope the fine stepper on a purposely 
'eccentrified' diskette it's an academic 
discussion, but an interesting read all the same. 
Thanks.

m 


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 28 18:50:09 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 16:50:09 -0800
Subject: 3.5" floppy failure mode? Hub not attched to media.
In-Reply-To: <6ACDB7A5F2194FFFA9EF5ADFE2322832@310e2>
References: <54E9EA5F.5020802@dds.nl>
 <CAJi76=tjH4S+07D43W+4zqGxxuxazTo=Q1=8mumgpVNTa2U7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E61A41F-F777-4632-BCD0-3E13891B2DF7@gmail.com>
 <20150226185148.854F92073C33@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EF80A0.8010903@sydex.com>
 <20150226233039.20B8A2073E9A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54EFBE3E.6080903@sydex.com>
 <20150227142637.76A4E2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <54F0A3C7.4030109@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTTP-Y2B8RTc7k+Vppj-UGuxXbURs6Bw5dMqDnPhvCVCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0CC56.8060107@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQS8UyOhFm5SVGhHM_deEH46i1H3vcXw8AHhwUjYrjVww@mail.gmail.com>
 <FFBFC69023D548639E6EAE9DFE531218@310e2>
 <CAFrGgTSyepmTXdEhUmWyhvgXZ3HTYLqHEcQdkaOhvxXSMe7SEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <6ACDB7A5F2194FFFA9EF5ADFE2322832@310e2>
Message-ID: <54F26241.30708@sydex.com>

On 02/28/2015 04:00 PM, Mike Stein wrote:

> I knew they had two steppers but didn't know that they could actually
> step every sector if necessary.
>
> I'm convinced; pretty impressive, especially if it was implemented on a
> 3.5" drive.
>
> How much did these drives cost?

They were 5.25" drives.  Drivetek went bankrupt, but managed to get 
drives into the Kaypro Robie machines.  Kodak picked up the pieces and 
offered some of their own incarnations--there was a 6MB drive.

The killer was that media was fairly expensive (about $15 per disk) and 
was pre-formatted.  i.e., there was no low-level FORMAT utility.

The positioner mechanism was a little Rube-Goldberg-ish.  Think of a 
coarse leadscrew on a sprung slip fitting over a stepper shaft.  Moving 
the slip fitting was a fulcrum levering off a fixed pin at the end 
nearest the coarse stepper.  On the other end of the fulcrum was the 
fine stepper driving the fulcrum back and forth with a fine leadscrew.

Somewhat like driving a tapered shim into the works to provide a fine fit.

Both steppers have "flags" on the ends, so you can see what's going on.

FWIW, I did determine that the Robie disks could be read quite easily in 
two passes by using two 96 tpi drives, one being offset slightly from 
the other.

--Chuck



From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 20:12:33 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 20:12:33 -0600
Subject: Passing of L. Nimoy
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF9mK0jKwM9ZgvbfYxm28Sm2eG+1bBByBd2+YGUM4vrBiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF9mK0jKwM9ZgvbfYxm28Sm2eG+1bBByBd2+YGUM4vrBiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd4QCyASTJqtF4f+3_pAneuta1qgmrpbnYanJDQp2GWD8A@mail.gmail.com>

Yep, sad to say, but he's "Boldly gone".. =(

As I understand it, TCM will be running "Them" (1954) on Thursday, March
1st - tomorrow, as of this writing. Don't miss Nimoy in a well-known but
un-credited bit as an Air Force radioman.

In the meantime, hop on over to YouTube and scratch your head at "The
Ballad of Bilbo Baggins" and his stirring rendition of "If I Had a
Hammer"..

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Murray McCullough <
c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> wrote:

>   How can one not be impressed by L. Nimoy's portrayal of Mr. Spock?
> His character was logical, almost computer-like, but was far more a
> portrait of humanity than most care to admit to. Ancient/classic
> computing was a hall-mark of Star Trek and Spock personified that
> relationship.
>
> Murray  :)
>

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 20:23:48 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 20:23:48 -0600
Subject: Passing of L. Nimoy
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd4QCyASTJqtF4f+3_pAneuta1qgmrpbnYanJDQp2GWD8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF9mK0jKwM9ZgvbfYxm28Sm2eG+1bBByBd2+YGUM4vrBiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd4QCyASTJqtF4f+3_pAneuta1qgmrpbnYanJDQp2GWD8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd4LDvgeuOX8Ahe=mM5rp90mpZM19hnN9+KAMA7rhgEHMw@mail.gmail.com>

Good grief.. Sunday, March 1st.

On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 8:12 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yep, sad to say, but he's "Boldly gone".. =(
>
> As I understand it, TCM will be running "Them" (1954) on Thursday, March
> 1st - tomorrow, as of this writing. Don't miss Nimoy in a well-known but
> un-credited bit as an Air Force radioman.
>
> In the meantime, hop on over to YouTube and scratch your head at "The
> Ballad of Bilbo Baggins" and his stirring rendition of "If I Had a
> Hammer"..
>
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Murray McCullough <
> c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>   How can one not be impressed by L. Nimoy's portrayal of Mr. Spock?
>> His character was logical, almost computer-like, but was far more a
>> portrait of humanity than most care to admit to. Ancient/classic
>> computing was a hall-mark of Star Trek and Spock personified that
>> relationship.
>>
>> Murray  :)
>>
>
>

From technobug at prelim.org  Sat Feb 28 21:56:41 2015
From: technobug at prelim.org (Technobug)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 20:56:41 -0700
Subject: Miscellaneous Freebies
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd4LDvgeuOX8Ahe=mM5rp90mpZM19hnN9+KAMA7rhgEHMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF9mK0jKwM9ZgvbfYxm28Sm2eG+1bBByBd2+YGUM4vrBiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd4QCyASTJqtF4f+3_pAneuta1qgmrpbnYanJDQp2GWD8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd4LDvgeuOX8Ahe=mM5rp90mpZM19hnN9+KAMA7rhgEHMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16FAAD2A-F8B7-4D84-BB5F-B64E695C32E4@prelim.org>

For years I've had a Digital 11/780 insignia pasted on the side of a  
Mac Power PC. To which many friends remarked that they thouught the  
780 was a much bigger box. Free to anyone willing to carry on the  
farce....

A number of years ago, someone stripped a Cypher tape deck and  
dropped it off the carcass at a recycler  friend. I got to strip what  
was left and the following sre aveilable as parts: No charge - not tas!

Head assy. pt # 966019-00101

BOT/EOT Sensor Assy. pt # 931599-101 Rev A

Tape presence detector assy. pt #980771

Capstan/Idler - rubber is still good

3 ea Idler  assy. pt # 4-400E (one has stuck bearing) - stainless steel

Photodector assy pt # 960062-101

Solenoid assy pt #961508-101

Idler assy pt #4-401D black plastic

Flex-circuit ass pt # 965973-001 rev 02

Flex-circuit ass [t #965972-001 rev 02

Idler (could be an erasing magnet) pt # 964261-001

Misc detctor of som sort - no pt #. Looks like it clipped over a rod.  
Two-pin connector.

	->CRC









From elson at pico-systems.com  Sat Feb 28 23:14:23 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 23:14:23 -0600
Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL
In-Reply-To: <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se>
References: <CAALmim=9bf8Lk+BDXw4ho3n+t4ExtspD9kZ6Y2rs4g2GXdrZbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net>
 <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAFrGgTSViMcwhR95FnALPiW4M5g1sr+rkRAOji4zx1-X9FLWRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+deH_g-pku8dbr-yFGcLk4WEv3Lr7ckA52y9JyhPuwfZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk>
 <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk>
 <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTQ=3Lw++jM2NiL2bo1hN3GdQedjgSSjJ-FoT6K9rj2Niw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com>
 <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com>
 <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com>

On 02/28/2015 04:59 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> Not that Unix was ever written in B anyway, but I believe 
> that B did
>>> exist for the PDP-7.
>>
I looked up the instruction set of the PDP-7, ghastly little 
machine, basically
a PDP-8 extended to 18 bits.  Stored the return address in 
the first word
of the subroutine, just one accumulator, conditionals were 
done with
a skip instruction, so you did this skip / jump structure 
for conditional
branches, unless the conditional code was only one 
instruction.  All the
stuff I disliked on the PDP-8.  One oddity was there was a 
13-bit address
field in the instruction, but it was possible to have more 
than 8K words
of memory on the machine.  Another oddity is there were both
ones-complement and twos-complement add instructions.  I guess
the designer just couldn't decide which arithmetic 
representation to use?

Jon

From curt at atarimuseum.com  Sat Feb 28 18:05:26 2015
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 19:05:26 -0500
Subject: My Data General MV/2500 is Up-and-Running
In-Reply-To: <54F18686.8080101@stephenmerrony.co.uk>
References: <54F18686.8080101@stephenmerrony.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E32765A6-43C5-44F1-81FC-9ABF12127274@atarimuseum.com>

Stephen -

Email me, I have some databases that ran on a mv4000 and I'd like to see if you could get the recovered backups of the programs to run and read the data.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 28, 2015, at 4:12 AM, Stephen Merrony <steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> I am delighted to report that after a long time, and with help from all over the world, I have finally got my MV/2500DC up-and-running.
> 
> Some details are on my blog http://www.stephenmerrony.co.uk/dg/2015/02/Disk-Replacement-Success.html
> 
> Now I am resurrecting my DG Assembler skills to bootstrap a file transfer program onto the machine...
> 
> Thanks to everyone who has helped.
> 
> Steve
> -- 
> /Stephen Merrony
> http://www.stephenmerrony.co.uk//dg

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sat Feb 28 18:22:36 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 18:22:36 -0600
Subject: TSX Plus...
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfABbEZAZxFOnoSxrmtpGmMFH_7_ArgLBRbNYujL2UgMXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20140303201107.78bb62b2@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <CAMDAk4cU6+o2YOnRB=w=LCYHjG2aFEH-N9JKNCtKpf-iXb8aCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfABbEZAZxFOnoSxrmtpGmMFH_7_ArgLBRbNYujL2UgMXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01d201d053b5$d227e400$7677ac00$@classiccmp.org>

I have Pascal for TSX+ and Saturn word processor for TSX+

J



From earl at retrobits.com  Sat Feb 28 19:25:08 2015
From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 17:25:08 -0800
Subject: TSX Plus...
In-Reply-To: <01d201d053b5$d227e400$7677ac00$@classiccmp.org>
References: <20140303201107.78bb62b2@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <CAMDAk4cU6+o2YOnRB=w=LCYHjG2aFEH-N9JKNCtKpf-iXb8aCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfABbEZAZxFOnoSxrmtpGmMFH_7_ArgLBRbNYujL2UgMXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01d201d053b5$d227e400$7677ac00$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAMDAk4frd1+6Tu9TZjdXcT1C1HfSwXBWw_dYJmTwpf48dL-QxQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I have Pascal for TSX+ and Saturn word processor for TSX+
>
> J
>
>
>
Exciting!

It would be great if we could get these available somewhere when the TSX
Plus site is up and running.

- Earl