From useddec at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 00:40:32 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 00:40:32 -0500 Subject: Equipment available (Wichita, Ks) In-Reply-To: References: <55B7BD21.7030009@microfilm.kscoxmail.com> <55BA868E.2050500@compsys.to> <55BAA800.7000407@microfilm.kscoxmail.com> Message-ID: I have BA350s, BA356s, drives, power supplies, etc if anyone needs more. Please contact me off list. Paul On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 3:54 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > I just heard DEC-branded drive box with 1 GB units and I figured it might > be a ready source of RZ26 drives; I suppose there's nothing particularly > special about them compared to any other 50-pin SCSI 1 GB drive but I like > to keep a stock of DEC firmware drives in case I get a "finicky" system on > my hands (although in practice I've found my DEC machines will run happily > with just about any drive) ... largest I've got on hand is the RZ25 ... > Shaun, thanks for responding although I think I'll pass in this particular > case. If anyone else is interested, feel free to go ahead and grab it; hope > I didn't hold anyone up. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Shaun Halstead < > microfilm at microfilm.kscoxmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On 07/30/2015 03:18 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > > I am holding a DEC RZ28 (aka ST32550N) 2 GB > > > hard drive in my hands and it seems no different in > > > weight than any other 3.5" hard drive. As a rough > > > estimate, take any Seagate 3.5" hard drive as being > > > close to the RZ26. Does this help? > > > > > > I replied to Sean off list. The complete array weighs about 25 pounds, > > with power supply and 6 > > disks. I've had a couple of inquiries about it already. > > > > --Shaun > > > > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Aug 1 04:10:04 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2015 10:10:04 +0100 Subject: RM 380Z Special Control Unit (?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 01/08/2015 05:38, "tony duell" wrote: >> >> As Jules and Tony have said, that's not 380Z internals so if that puts you >> off I'll have a punt just for the power supply ;) > > ... Which also may well not be RML original. The 380Z has a regulated PSU, > S100 has separate regulators on each board and an unregulated PSU. Very true. I've just looked at my 380Z and the PSU does look different. However, unless bidding goes nuts it's worth it just to see what it actually IS, and since it's Watford I can pick it up. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Aug 1 05:10:48 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2015 11:10:48 +0100 Subject: Saved DEC kit Message-ID: Folks, Before the great company meltdown of Jan this year and as I discovered the great mailing list breakdown of not long after I saved some DEC kit for list members to collect, namely: Alpha 800 (rackmount) uVAX 2000 VAX 4000VLC These are still in my hallway in Cambs UK so if either the people who called for them or failing that anyone else would like to collect that'd be great. I have proper scales for shipping weight but they need to be calibrated and I'm struggling to find anything that weighs exactly 25kg :) (I know the Alpha800 is '24-28kg', scales are pretty correct there, as they are with my DS25, but they get a DS10 horribly wrong so...) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From lukas.kaminski at krankikom.de Sat Aug 1 05:29:50 2015 From: lukas.kaminski at krankikom.de (Lukas Kaminski) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2015 12:29:50 +0200 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150801102950.4812881.56720.1243@krankikom.de> Hi, I would be very interested in the 4000 vlc. Is it still available? Also is shipping to Germany possible? How miuch would it cost? Bye, Lukas Kaminski Sent?from?my?BlackBerry?10?smartphone. ? Original Message ? From: Adrian Graham Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2015 12:11 To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Saved DEC kit Folks, Before the great company meltdown of Jan this year and as I discovered the great mailing list breakdown of not long after I saved some DEC kit for list members to collect, namely: Alpha 800 (rackmount) uVAX 2000 VAX 4000VLC These are still in my hallway in Cambs UK so if either the people who called for them or failing that anyone else would like to collect that'd be great. I have proper scales for shipping weight but they need to be calibrated and I'm struggling to find anything that weighs exactly 25kg :) (I know the Alpha800 is '24-28kg', scales are pretty correct there, as they are with my DS25, but they get a DS10 horribly wrong so...) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 1 05:44:17 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 11:44:17 +0100 Subject: RM 380Z Special Control Unit (?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03d301d0cc47$04020550$0c060ff0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: 01 August 2015 10:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RM 380Z Special Control Unit (?) > > > > > On 01/08/2015 05:38, "tony duell" wrote: > > >> > >> As Jules and Tony have said, that's not 380Z internals so if that > >> puts you off I'll have a punt just for the power supply ;) > > > > ... Which also may well not be RML original. The 380Z has a regulated > > PSU, > > S100 has separate regulators on each board and an unregulated PSU. > > Very true. I've just looked at my 380Z and the PSU does look different. > However, unless bidding goes nuts it's worth it just to see what it actually IS, > and since it's Watford I can pick it up. > > If you do collect it then let me know what you discover. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 1 05:45:15 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 11:45:15 +0100 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03d401d0cc47$26aed240$740c76c0$@ntlworld.com> Always interested in a 2000 and a 4000. I suspect these were destined for other people, but if the takers have not materialised then I will happily take them. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: 01 August 2015 11:11 > To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Saved DEC kit > > Folks, > > Before the great company meltdown of Jan this year and as I discovered the > great mailing list breakdown of not long after I saved some DEC kit for list > members to collect, namely: > > Alpha 800 (rackmount) > uVAX 2000 > VAX 4000VLC > > These are still in my hallway in Cambs UK so if either the people who called for > them or failing that anyone else would like to collect that'd be great. > > I have proper scales for shipping weight but they need to be calibrated and I'm > struggling to find anything that weighs exactly 25kg :) (I know the Alpha800 is > '24-28kg', scales are pretty correct there, as they are with my DS25, but they > get a DS10 horribly wrong so...) > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Aug 1 05:59:06 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2015 11:59:06 +0100 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: <03d401d0cc47$26aed240$740c76c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No probs Rob, I'll give it a couple of days and dig through my old messages from Dec/Jan this year. The original takers might also have dropped off the list in the same way I did. A On 01/08/2015 11:45, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: > Always interested in a 2000 and a 4000. I suspect these were destined for > other people, but if the takers have not materialised then I will happily > take them. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian >> Graham >> Sent: 01 August 2015 11:11 >> To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Saved DEC kit >> >> Folks, >> >> Before the great company meltdown of Jan this year and as I discovered the >> great mailing list breakdown of not long after I saved some DEC kit for > list >> members to collect, namely: >> >> Alpha 800 (rackmount) >> uVAX 2000 >> VAX 4000VLC >> >> These are still in my hallway in Cambs UK so if either the people who > called for >> them or failing that anyone else would like to collect that'd be great. >> >> I have proper scales for shipping weight but they need to be calibrated > and I'm >> struggling to find anything that weighs exactly 25kg :) (I know the > Alpha800 is >> '24-28kg', scales are pretty correct there, as they are with my DS25, but > they >> get a DS10 horribly wrong so...) >> >> -- >> Adrian/Witchy >> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >> collection? > > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ik at yvanj.me Sat Aug 1 07:04:23 2015 From: ik at yvanj.me (Yvan Janssens) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2015 12:04:23 +0000 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: References: <03d401d0cc47$26aed240$740c76c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I've sent you an email off list about the Alpha 800; feel free to get in touch if nobody takes it. Y. On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 11:59 AM Adrian Graham wrote: > No probs Rob, I'll give it a couple of days and dig through my old messages > from Dec/Jan this year. The original takers might also have dropped off the > list in the same way I did. > > A > > > On 01/08/2015 11:45, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: > > > Always interested in a 2000 and a 4000. I suspect these were destined for > > other people, but if the takers have not materialised then I will happily > > take them. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > >> Graham > >> Sent: 01 August 2015 11:11 > >> To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Saved DEC kit > >> > >> Folks, > >> > >> Before the great company meltdown of Jan this year and as I discovered > the > >> great mailing list breakdown of not long after I saved some DEC kit for > > list > >> members to collect, namely: > >> > >> Alpha 800 (rackmount) > >> uVAX 2000 > >> VAX 4000VLC > >> > >> These are still in my hallway in Cambs UK so if either the people who > > called for > >> them or failing that anyone else would like to collect that'd be great. > >> > >> I have proper scales for shipping weight but they need to be calibrated > > and I'm > >> struggling to find anything that weighs exactly 25kg :) (I know the > > Alpha800 is > >> '24-28kg', scales are pretty correct there, as they are with my DS25, > but > > they > >> get a DS10 horribly wrong so...) > >> > >> -- > >> Adrian/Witchy > >> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > >> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > >> collection? > > > > > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > -- This message has been sent on the road - excuse me for my brevity. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 09:35:20 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2015 09:35:20 -0500 Subject: RM 380Z Special Control Unit (?) In-Reply-To: References: <038f01d0cbb6$ed1fb930$c75f2b90$@ntlworld.com>, Message-ID: <55BCD928.5070207@gmail.com> On 07/31/2015 11:38 PM, tony duell wrote: >> >> As Jules and Tony have said, that's not 380Z internals so if that puts you >> off I'll have a punt just for the power supply ;) > > ... Which also may well not be RML original. The 380Z has a regulated PSU, > S100 has separate regulators on each board and an unregulated PSU. Indeed, although I do recall a heatsink mounted externally on the back of the chassis (where the fan would be on the later hardware) with the early machines - I just don't know details of the internal PSU. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 1 09:46:00 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 14:46:00 +0000 Subject: RM 380Z Special Control Unit (?) In-Reply-To: <55BCD928.5070207@gmail.com> References: <038f01d0cbb6$ed1fb930$c75f2b90$@ntlworld.com>, , <55BCD928.5070207@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > > > ... Which also may well not be RML original. The 380Z has a regulated PSU, > > S100 has separate regulators on each board and an unregulated PSU. > > Indeed, although I do recall a heatsink mounted externally on the back of > the chassis (where the fan would be on the later hardware) with the early > machines - I just don't know details of the internal PSU. I was going to say that that heatsink didn't look original, but fortunately I kept my mouth shut and didn't insert my foot :-) I've only seen the later black 380Z's with built-in 5.25" drives, first at school and now the one I own. On those the PSU is entirely internal, it's a little chassis that fits round the mains transformer and carries a PCB of recctifiers, regulators, etc. For some odd reason the schematic of that is not in the manual, I guess I should draw it out sometime. It's not complicated. Thinking about it, I do wonder what that heatsink/regulator is doing in an S100 system. Most likely it is the original RML supply and somebody has connected to the unregulated inputs to its regulators -tony From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 1 09:57:33 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay jaeger) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2015 08:57:33 -0600 Subject: RM 380Z Special Control Unit (?) Message-ID: SOME of the later S100 systems had regulated supplies and then ditched the board regulators, usually leaving a place to put a regulator with just a jumper wire in place of the regulator. tony duell wrote: >> > >> > ... Which also may well not be RML original. The 380Z has a regulated PSU, >> > S100 has separate regulators on each board and an unregulated PSU. >> >> Indeed, although I do recall a heatsink mounted externally on the back of >> the chassis (where the fan would be on the later hardware) with the early >> machines - I just don't know details of the internal PSU. > >I was going to say that that heatsink didn't look original, but fortunately I >kept my mouth shut and didn't insert my foot :-) > >I've only seen the later black 380Z's with built-in 5.25" drives, first at school >and now the one I own. On those the PSU is entirely internal, it's a little >chassis that fits round the mains transformer and carries a PCB of >recctifiers, regulators, etc. For some odd reason the schematic of that is not >in the manual, I guess I should draw it out sometime. It's not complicated. > >Thinking about it, I do wonder what that heatsink/regulator is doing in an S100 >system. Most likely it is the original RML supply and somebody has connected >to the unregulated inputs to its regulators > >-tony > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 1 10:57:03 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 08:57:03 -0700 Subject: Reforming capacitors (technical description, not politics) In-Reply-To: References: <20150731015207.GA1091@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <03ae01d0cbb8$72488280$56d98780$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <55BCEC4F.9080904@bitsavers.org> On 7/31/15 4:48 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 5:07 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> I found the hardbound volume in question, and it does have a very > [...] >> But happily, I did a little searching and it turns out that the entire doc >> is available online via Cornell U and Google books. How cool! >> Here's the link: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924004669861 >> Take a look at Section 9 for the primary capacitor articles. Meanwhile, > > That's great, thank you!!! > they weren't that expensive on bookfinder, so I ordered a copy for bitsavers From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 15:09:32 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 14:09:32 -0600 Subject: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I previously wrote about the monitor of my Intel Series II MDS going out, which was because the +15V DC supply tripped the crowbar. The voltage adjust was all the way to the minimum, and the voltage was still about 17.4V with no load, and trips the crowbar with even a small load. I think someone previously encountered this problem and adjusted the pot rather than fixing it, and the problem has gotten worse since. The root cause of the failure appears to be that the internal voltage reference of the uA723, which is specified as 7.15V ?0.35V, is now 9.4V. The uA723 needs to be replaced. The uA723 is still readily available, but due to the construction of the power supply, replacing it is relatively difficult. Just probing the pins of the chip was a challenge. The pass transistors are mounted to 1/8 inch aluminum plate, but the pins are soldered into rivets in the single-sided PCB, entering from the etch side (which is closest to the aluminum), so they will have to be desoldered to get at the etch side to replace the 723. I considered just cutting the pins of the 723 and soldering another (or a socket) onto it from the component side, but pins 1-7 of the 723 are right next to a big axial electrolytic so there's no way I can solder that side. Input and output wires to the board are soldered into single-pin cup thingies on two opposite edges of the board, so I can't even get the board into an orientation suitable for working on it without desoldering or cutting some of the wires. I haven't bench-tested the monitor, because I haven't kludged up a suitable signal source yet, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 1 15:14:08 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 20:14:08 +0000 Subject: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > The root cause of the failure appears to be that the internal voltage > reference of the uA723, which is specified as 7.15V ?0.35V, is now > 9.4V. The uA723 needs to be replaced. The uA723 is still readily That's an unsual failure. I've had 723s go internally short-circuit and then the output voltage is essentially the input voltage, but never seen the reference drift. > available, but due to the construction of the power supply, replacing > it is relatively difficult. Just probing the pins of the chip was a > challenge. The pass transistors are mounted to 1/8 inch aluminum > plate, but the pins are soldered into rivets in the single-sided PCB, Ouch, that sounds horrible to work on. One thing... I had a (SMPSU) that seemed impossible to work on, it was built a bit like that. Then I found that those 'rivets' were actually sockets and the transistors were plugged in, not soldered. All I had to do was unto the mounting screws and it all unplugged. Of course I didn't realise this and spent some time desoldering things. I assume you have proved your pass transistors are soldered in place. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 1 15:24:10 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 20:24:10 +0000 Subject: RM 380Z Special Control Unit (?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > SOME of the later S100 systems had regulated supplies and then ditched the board regulators, > usually leaving a place to put a regulator with just a jumper wire in place of the regulator. Sure. But in this machine I can see some heatsinks on the S100 boards that are likely to be used for regulators. Of course they might have been bypassed and the boards used on a regulated supply. Incidentally, I found the 380Z service manual on the web (vt100.net I think). It gives a schematic of the power supply (it's pretty much what you'd expect), this is the later supply in the black-cased machines. I am still looking for several pieces of 380Z related infiormation : A listing of the COS ROM V3.4 (there is older version on that site which is a good start, though). Any information on the SIO-2 interface (bit-banged serial over the user port), other than the installation instrucitons. Any real information on the dual cassette control unit. -tony From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 15:26:54 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 14:26:54 -0600 Subject: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 2:14 PM, tony duell wrote: >> The root cause of the failure appears to be that the internal voltage >> reference of the uA723, which is specified as 7.15V ?0.35V, is now >> 9.4V. The uA723 needs to be replaced. The uA723 is still readily > > That's an unsual failure. I've had 723s go internally short-circuit and > then the output voltage is essentially the input voltage, but never > seen the reference drift. The circuit used in the PS only ties the reference output (pin 6 of the DIP) to the non-inverting input of the amplifier (pin 5), so I don't think there's any other likely explanation, though since I haven't actually been able to pull the board out yet to inspect it more closely, I suppose there might be a very small chance of something else being shorted to those pins. > I assume you have proved your pass transistors are soldered in place. It sure looks like solder joints, but I should double-check. I was surprised by solder joints on the top (non-etch) side of the single-sided board, but I've been told that Power-One sometimes installed rivets into the PCB holes for that. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Aug 1 15:36:17 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 13:36:17 -0700 Subject: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <288A3DDC-619A-4525-BD9E-2A7F1A4FBB73@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Aug-01, at 1:26 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 2:14 PM, tony duell wrote: >>> The root cause of the failure appears to be that the internal voltage >>> reference of the uA723, which is specified as 7.15V ?0.35V, is now >>> 9.4V. The uA723 needs to be replaced. The uA723 is still readily >> >> That's an unsual failure. I've had 723s go internally short-circuit and >> then the output voltage is essentially the input voltage, but never >> seen the reference drift. > > The circuit used in the PS only ties the reference output (pin 6 of > the DIP) to the non-inverting input of the amplifier (pin 5), so I > don't think there's any other likely explanation, though since I > haven't actually been able to pull the board out yet to inspect it > more closely, I suppose there might be a very small chance of > something else being shorted to those pins. Just a suggestion: you're sure there no ground reference problem on pin 7 (V-) of the 723? (hence raising the Vref). I've seen small 723-based supplies with sense leads where the 723 V- is on the neg. sense lead rather than neg. output lead. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 16:22:39 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 15:22:39 -0600 Subject: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure In-Reply-To: <288A3DDC-619A-4525-BD9E-2A7F1A4FBB73@cs.ubc.ca> References: <288A3DDC-619A-4525-BD9E-2A7F1A4FBB73@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Just a suggestion: you're sure there no ground reference problem on pin 7 (V-) of the 723? (hence raising the Vref). > I've seen small 723-based supplies with sense leads where the 723 V- is on the neg. sense lead rather than neg. output lead. I checked it, and don't see any offset from ground elsewhere in the circuit. This particular supply rail doesn't use remote sense. They only use it on the 5V 30A supply, which is on a different board. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 1 16:24:11 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 22:24:11 +0100 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! Message-ID: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> Today I was able to repair the LCD monitor (admittedly a cheap one) on my son's computer by replacing some of the electrolytic capacitors. Had I not got into collecting and restoring (sometimes) old DEC machines, I would not have had the ESR meter, the de-soldering and soldering equipment, suitable capacitors and sufficient knowledge (generously provided by many on this list) to do the job. Of course, compared to the things that many people on this list do, it is hardly a major achievement. But this hobby has now saved me from throwing away an old monitor and having to buy a new one. I suppose I now have at least some justification in the eyes of She Who Must Be Obeyed for continuing with this hobby J Regards Rob PS A related question. I struggled somewhat with the Weller Magnastat No. 8 tip, when trying to solder leads to the ground plane, I could not get the solder to stay molten very long. I was using lead-free solder, its melting point is much lower than the temperature which a No. 8 tip reaches. The iron is 50W. Clearly the ground plane was taking heat away, but is it a problem with the tip not being hot enough, the iron not powerful enough, or perhaps some operator error? From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Aug 1 16:38:38 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 17:38:38 -0400 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0AB976B4-F490-45F2-9796-C619010DC6EE@comcast.net> > On Aug 1, 2015, at 5:24 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > PS A related question. I struggled somewhat with the Weller Magnastat No. 8 > tip, when trying to solder leads to the ground plane, I could not get the > solder to stay molten very long. I was using lead-free solder, its melting > point is much lower than the temperature which a No. 8 tip reaches. The iron > is 50W. Clearly the ground plane was taking heat away, but is it a problem > with the tip not being hot enough, the iron not powerful enough, or perhaps > some operator error? Politically correct solder is harder to use and has a higher melting point. I asked one of the professionals at the office about it; her answer was to avoid it unless it was required for the job. In other words, for hobby use and for anything else that isn?t sold, stay away from it. Modern components are perfectly happy being soldered with real solder, even though they are made lead-free. I followed that advice and was very happy with the outcome. Meanwhile, 50 watts isn?t all that much when you have a major heat sink. A ground plane may be enough to give you trouble, but I suspect it?s the use of lead free solder that?s the real issue. paul From radiotest at juno.com Sat Aug 1 16:38:27 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2015 17:38:27 -0400 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20150801173552.03d51ee0@juno.com> At 05:24 PM 8/1/2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: >I suppose I now have at least some justification in the eyes of She Who Must Be Obeyed for continuing with this hobby One of the few benefits enjoyed by those of us who do not have a Hilda is that we have no interference with our hobbies. :-) Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From ian at platinum.net Sat Aug 1 16:44:16 2015 From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 14:44:16 -0700 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <78C62B55-8BCD-4897-AD4A-453E4E1B1CDD@platinum.net> > On Aug 1, 2015, at 2:24 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > PS A related question. I struggled somewhat with the Weller Magnastat No. 8 > tip, when trying to solder leads to the ground plane, I could not get the > solder to stay molten very long. I was using lead-free solder, its melting > point is much lower than the temperature which a No. 8 tip reaches. The iron > is 50W. Clearly the ground plane was taking heat away, but is it a problem > with the tip not being hot enough, the iron not powerful enough, or perhaps > some operator error? Rob, I would recommend a temperature controlled iron, such as the Hakko FX888D. I have one and it?s beautiful. It can compensate for soldering large ground planes by detecting the drop in heat and pumping more power to the tip. https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11704 Ian From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 1 17:24:32 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 23:24:32 +0100 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <78C62B55-8BCD-4897-AD4A-453E4E1B1CDD@platinum.net> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <78C62B55-8BCD-4897-AD4A-453E4E1B1CDD@platinum.net> Message-ID: <043401d0cca8$d6abcde0$840369a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian > McLaughlin > Sent: 01 August 2015 22:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! > > > > On Aug 1, 2015, at 2:24 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > PS A related question. I struggled somewhat with the Weller Magnastat > > No. 8 tip, when trying to solder leads to the ground plane, I could > > not get the solder to stay molten very long. I was using lead-free > > solder, its melting point is much lower than the temperature which a > > No. 8 tip reaches. The iron is 50W. Clearly the ground plane was > > taking heat away, but is it a problem with the tip not being hot > > enough, the iron not powerful enough, or perhaps some operator error? > > Rob, > I would recommend a temperature controlled iron, such as the Hakko FX888D. I > have one and it?s beautiful. It can compensate for soldering large ground > planes by detecting the drop in heat and pumping more power to the tip. > > https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11704 > > > Ian Thanks for the suggestion, but Hakko appears not to be available in the UK. On ebay I can find US sellers and Chinese sellers. I suspect the Chinese ones are imitations, so I would prefer to avoid those. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 1 17:26:10 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 23:26:10 +0100 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <0AB976B4-F490-45F2-9796-C619010DC6EE@comcast.net> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <0AB976B4-F490-45F2-9796-C619010DC6EE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <043501d0cca9$117e65e0$347b31a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning > Sent: 01 August 2015 22:39 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! > > > > On Aug 1, 2015, at 5:24 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > > > PS A related question. I struggled somewhat with the Weller Magnastat > > No. 8 tip, when trying to solder leads to the ground plane, I could > > not get the solder to stay molten very long. I was using lead-free > > solder, its melting point is much lower than the temperature which a > > No. 8 tip reaches. The iron is 50W. Clearly the ground plane was > > taking heat away, but is it a problem with the tip not being hot > > enough, the iron not powerful enough, or perhaps some operator error? > > Politically correct solder is harder to use and has a higher melting point. I > asked one of the professionals at the office about it; her answer was to avoid it > unless it was required for the job. In other words, for hobby use and for > anything else that isn?t sold, stay away from it. Modern components are > perfectly happy being soldered with real solder, even though they are made > lead-free. > > I followed that advice and was very happy with the outcome. > > Meanwhile, 50 watts isn?t all that much when you have a major heat sink. A > ground plane may be enough to give you trouble, but I suspect it?s the use of > lead free solder that?s the real issue. I did consider using leaded solder. I used lead-free because it is a more modern piece of equipment probably made with lead-free solder, but that was probably misguided. I made the repair anyway, but next time I will try using leaded. Thanks Rob From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Aug 1 17:36:22 2015 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 18:36:22 -0400 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <043501d0cca9$117e65e0$347b31a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <0AB976B4-F490-45F2-9796-C619010DC6EE@comcast.net> <043501d0cca9$117e65e0$347b31a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I still use a bunch of lead solder I purchased to fix the RAM on a C64 back in the late 1980's plus you can still get it from China on ebay super cheap. Just this week I fixed an Apple Ibook G3-500 that had the connector for the trackpad/mouse come off the board from bad lead free soldering at the factory (what a pain stripping the whole unit to get the motherboard out). You can get all kinds of fixable and useful equipment cheap because of bad solder joints these days if you like to fix things. The Chinese knock-off soldering equipment isn't too bad for the hobbyist. I just snagged a desolding gun with vacuum pump for $100ish a few months back and it works very well. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Jarratt Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2015 6:26 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! I did consider using leaded solder. I used lead-free because it is a more modern piece of equipment probably made with lead-free solder, but that was probably misguided. I made the repair anyway, but next time I will try using leaded. Thanks Rob --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ian at platinum.net Sat Aug 1 17:39:07 2015 From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 15:39:07 -0700 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <043401d0cca8$d6abcde0$840369a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <78C62B55-8BCD-4897-AD4A-453E4E1B1CDD@platinum.net> <043401d0cca8$d6abcde0$840369a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1D9C0A4A-C243-4A6E-A27D-F03D3E6A428A@platinum.net> > On Aug 1, 2015, at 3:24 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Thanks for the suggestion, but Hakko appears not to be available in the UK. On ebay I can find US sellers and Chinese sellers. I suspect the Chinese ones are imitations, so I would prefer to avoid those. Sorry - missed the UK part :) Did some googling, and it looks like Hakko makes a 230v version. I found a UK retailer that lists it: http://www.dancap.co.uk/soldering/fx888D.html Although there?s quite the premium - GBP99 vs USD99. You are correct about Chinese counterfeits - this is a very popular iron and there are lots of counterfeit units out there. As a device designed to get hot enough to melt metal, I wouldn?t want a counterfeit unit on my desk :) However, the make and model doesn?t really matter - look for a reasonably priced temperature controlled device, and you?ll never want to go back. They are a pleasure to use. Ian From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Aug 1 17:49:01 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 15:49:01 -0700 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <0AB976B4-F490-45F2-9796-C619010DC6EE@comcast.net> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <0AB976B4-F490-45F2-9796-C619010DC6EE@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2015-Aug-01, at 2:38 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Aug 1, 2015, at 5:24 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> >> PS A related question. I struggled somewhat with the Weller Magnastat No. 8 >> tip, when trying to solder leads to the ground plane, I could not get the >> solder to stay molten very long. I was using lead-free solder, its melting >> point is much lower than the temperature which a No. 8 tip reaches. The iron >> is 50W. Clearly the ground plane was taking heat away, but is it a problem >> with the tip not being hot enough, the iron not powerful enough, or perhaps >> some operator error? > > Politically correct solder is harder to use and has a higher melting point. I asked one of the professionals at the office about it; her answer was to avoid it unless it was required for the job. In other words, for hobby use and for anything else that isn?t sold, stay away from it. Modern components are perfectly happy being soldered with real solder, even though they are made lead-free. > > I followed that advice and was very happy with the outcome. > > Meanwhile, 50 watts isn?t all that much when you have a major heat sink. A ground plane may be enough to give you trouble, but I suspect it?s the use of lead free solder that?s the real issue. As an example, I was trying to solder on the ground-plane of a 1970s (i.e. leaded everything) Heath digital tuner recently (double-sided ground plane on the PCB). Old Weller 48W/700F/mag-temp-switch iron was not up to it, would only melt in immediate proximity to the tip. From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Aug 1 17:19:33 2015 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 18:19:33 -0400 Subject: Reforming capacitors (technical description, not politics) In-Reply-To: <03ae01d0cbb8$72488280$56d98780$@ntlworld.com> References: <03ae01d0cbb8$72488280$56d98780$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20150801221933.GA3413@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 06:43:44PM +0100, Robert Jarratt wrote: > From the slides you posted it looks like you have some kind of automated set > up. Can you explain what you have there? > The only automation was the data collection. For the reforming I set the lab supply to the current limit I think is safe and set the voltage to the final reform voltage and just let it go. If your reforming several capacitors at once if you put a resistor in series with each cap you can use to the measure the leakage. If you use a 100 ohm resistor you get 100 mV = 1 mA which makes it easy to convert the meter reading. Stuff I found wasn't consistent for reforming current. I though 5 mA was safe for a capacitor so used that for the entire bank. The most strict reference said to use the rated maximum leakage current for reforming. If one capacitor is worse it may take most of the current. The supply I had wasn't entirely stable regulating at that low of a current so you can see the steps where I readjusted it when it started to creep up. I used the maximum continuous voltage on the cap label as my reforming voltage. I just do the reforming run until the current stops dropping. You can see that in the graph. I then verify that the leakage on each capacitor is reasonable. For coke can capacitors I want them each to be under 1 mA. I had forgotten to put the series resistors but since my entire bank was .5 mA I didn't worry about not measuring each one though the variance would have been interesting. My capacitance meter didn't measure that high and my ESR meter didn't measure that low so I made the measurements using the other methods. The slides seem to have gotten a little confusing when I split some into backup. The capacitance was measure by setting the supply to a reasonably high current limit and timing how long it takes to charge. The automation was logging the data. I had a digital scope with USB to a laptop that I used to measure the voltage on the bank and the voltage across the series resistor. > The limited reforming I have done > has been done manually. I also notice that you reform over quite a few > hours, but those are big caps. Not sure I have seen any suggestions over how > long to reform for, and whether it is a function of the capacitor's nominal > capacitance. > As others have said the capacitor and storage conditions are the driver. If your not in a hurry just let it go until its not changing much. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 1 17:58:12 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 23:58:12 +0100 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <1D9C0A4A-C243-4A6E-A27D-F03D3E6A428A@platinum.net> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <78C62B55-8BCD-4897-AD4A-453E4E1B1CDD@platinum.net> <043401d0cca8$d6abcde0$840369a0$@ntlworld.com> <1D9C0A4A-C243-4A6E-A27D-F03D3E6A428A@platinum.net> Message-ID: <043601d0ccad$8b1d34e0$a1579ea0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian > McLaughlin > Sent: 01 August 2015 23:39 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! > > > > On Aug 1, 2015, at 3:24 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > Thanks for the suggestion, but Hakko appears not to be available in the UK. > On ebay I can find US sellers and Chinese sellers. I suspect the Chinese ones are > imitations, so I would prefer to avoid those. > > Sorry - missed the UK part :) > > Did some googling, and it looks like Hakko makes a 230v version. I found a UK > retailer that lists it: > > http://www.dancap.co.uk/soldering/fx888D.html > > Thanks. I did do a search, but obviously not that well :-( > Although there?s quite the premium - GBP99 vs USD99. > > You are correct about Chinese counterfeits - this is a very popular iron and > there are lots of counterfeit units out there. As a device designed to get hot > enough to melt metal, I wouldn?t want a counterfeit unit on my desk :) > > However, the make and model doesn?t really matter - look for a reasonably > priced temperature controlled device, and you?ll never want to go back. They > are a pleasure to use. > > Ian From vlad.stamate at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 18:05:35 2015 From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 19:05:35 -0400 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers Message-ID: Hi, I recently got a very nice HP 9816 with a 9121 drive unit from Earl Baugh (thanks Earl!). The computer worked fine but the primary drive of the 9121 refused to read the disk and made a continuous beating noise. After I cleaned it on the outside I opened it to see what is wrong with it. And I found this piece inside the drive itself: http://imgur.com/dlqOexX (floppy added for size comparison). After carefully removing it, the drive actually worked like a charm and I was able to boot from it. I was pleasantly impressed that the drive head has not been damaged bumping in the leather piece all the time. I am not sure how that got there, I assume a child pushed it in by mistake? I am not sure what it is either, the leather triangles sewn together by hand it seem. What other strange pieces did you find when you opened up classic computers? Vlad. From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 18:27:03 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 18:27:03 -0500 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150801232703.GC14211@gmail.com> On Sat, Aug 01, 2015, Vlad Stamate wrote: > Hi, > > I recently got a very nice HP 9816 with a 9121 drive unit from Earl > Baugh (thanks Earl!). The computer worked fine but the primary drive > of the 9121 refused to read the disk and made a continuous beating > noise. After I cleaned it on the outside I opened it to see what is > wrong with it. And I found this piece inside the drive itself: > http://imgur.com/dlqOexX (floppy added for size comparison). > > After carefully removing it, the drive actually worked like a charm > and I was able to boot from it. I was pleasantly impressed that the > drive head has not been damaged bumping in the leather piece all the > time. I am not sure how that got there, I assume a child pushed it in > by mistake? I am not sure what it is either, the leather triangles > sewn together by hand it seem. > > What other strange pieces did you find when you opened up classic computers? While an Intel Mac laptop doesn't really qualify, I found an uneven piece of hard plastic, about 2mm x 1.5mm, inside one of its RAM slots when I went to upgrade it. How it got there I've never been able to understand -- it was already populated with a DIMM that was working correctly, and I think maybe I had actually put that DIMM there in the first place, and never seen the odd chunk before. It was a royal pain to remove, too -- I ended up using an X-Acto knife to cut away part of the edge connected so I could remove it with a tweezer. Boy was I shocked to realize that the actual metal pins that the RAM module connected to were embedded in the piece of plastic edge connector I cut away; somehow I managed to remove the plastic without breaking any of them. Upon bending them slightly so they looked straight, I put the RAM in, and everything was fine then. -- Eric Christopherson From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 1 18:37:25 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 16:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <20150801232703.GC14211@gmail.com> References: <20150801232703.GC14211@gmail.com> Message-ID: > What other strange pieces did you find when you opened up classic computers? A TRS80 model 1 where some keys had stopped working due to an accumulation of marijuana seeds From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 1 18:52:12 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 16:52:12 -0700 Subject: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <288A3DDC-619A-4525-BD9E-2A7F1A4FBB73@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: There we two different reference voltages on 723s. I don't recall which was which but one had to change the feedback resistors if you used the wrong one. If seems there is only one ref voltage available today. I think Jameco carries them. What package do you need. They cam in cans and dips. Dwight From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Aug 1 19:12:40 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 20:12:40 -0400 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <0AB976B4-F490-45F2-9796-C619010DC6EE@comcast.net> <043501d0cca9$117e65e0$347b31a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 1, 2015, at 6:36 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > I still use a bunch of lead solder I purchased to fix the RAM on a C64 back in the late 1980's plus you can still get it from China on ebay super cheap. Fortunately, real solder is still readily available; my current tools catalog (from Stanley Tools, I think) has a whole section for solder and soldering equipment, and while more than half of the solder listing is various flavors of lead-free, the real stuff is still there, too. That includes the good stuff: 63-37 eutectic, which is the kind to go for if you can. > > Just this week I fixed an Apple Ibook G3-500 that had the connector for the trackpad/mouse come off the board from bad lead free soldering at the factory (what a pain stripping the whole unit to get the motherboard out). You can get all kinds of fixable and useful equipment cheap because of bad solder joints these days if you like to fix things. > > The Chinese knock-off soldering equipment isn't too bad for the hobbyist. I just snagged a desolding gun with vacuum pump for $100ish a few months back and it works very well. I still have the Weller temperature-controlled (Curie effect) unit I bought 40 years ago. That too is still available (WTCPT), and still excellent. It is fairly high power, so you get the safety of an effective temperature control with the flexibility of a higher power iron. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Aug 1 19:14:14 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 20:14:14 -0400 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <0AB976B4-F490-45F2-9796-C619010DC6EE@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Aug 1, 2015, at 6:49 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > ... > > As an example, I was trying to solder on the ground-plane of a 1970s (i.e. leaded everything) Heath digital tuner recently (double-sided ground plane on the PCB). > Old Weller 48W/700F/mag-temp-switch iron was not up to it, would only melt in immediate proximity to the tip. For that I keep a PTB tip around, the 800F type. Changing tips is easy and they are pretty inexpensive. You can also find (with a bit of searching) an extra-fine tip suitable for fine SMD work. paul From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 1 19:17:36 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 19:17:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Aug 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > PS A related question. I struggled somewhat with the Weller Magnastat > No. 8 tip, when trying to solder leads to the ground plane, I could not > get the solder to stay molten very long. I was using lead-free solder, > its melting point is much lower than the temperature which a No. 8 tip > reaches. The iron is 50W. Clearly the ground plane was taking heat away, > but is it a problem with the tip not being hot enough, the iron not > powerful enough, or perhaps some operator error? The Weller just didn't have enough thermal mass and a fast enough recovery for the task. While some people prefer the digital readouts and pushbuttons on some of the newer soldering stations, I find older Hakko systems with a temperature control knob to be far easier to use. For a single sided or double sided plated-though board soldered with tin/lead alloy, I usually run a lower temperature somewhere around 600-650F. For a multi-layer board with large ground/power planes, or a board assembled with lead-free solder, 650-700F or slightly higher is often required. I also suggest using traditional tin/lead alloy solder instead of the lead-free stuff. I only use lead-free where I absolutely have to and prefer to use a 63/37 tin/lead alloy even for repairing lead-free boards. Adding tin/lead solder to an existing lead-free joint before desoldering will also lower the melting temperature and help with the desoldering process. It usually isn't advisable to mix tin/lead solder with lead-free solder unless you are going to remove it though as some lead-free alloys do not mix well with traditional tin/lead. When installing new components on a board where you are soldering to areas with a large thermal mass such as a ground or power plane, you might also want to consider using supplemental flux, such as a flux pen (even with through-hole components). The extra flux will help pre-clean the pads and component leads and will allow the solder to wet quicker. A more active RA flux can also help, however if you are working with a multi-layer board with internal ground/power planes (4 layers or more), a no-clean, low-solids rosin, or non-rosin flux might be required since some of those boards can wick a traditional RA or RMA rosin-based flux between the layers which will leave permanent dark spots inside the board. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 1 19:22:08 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 19:22:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Aug 2015, Vlad Stamate wrote: > Hi, > > I recently got a very nice HP 9816 with a 9121 drive unit from Earl > Baugh (thanks Earl!). The computer worked fine but the primary drive of > the 9121 refused to read the disk and made a continuous beating noise. > After I cleaned it on the outside I opened it to see what is wrong with > it. And I found this piece inside the drive itself: > http://imgur.com/dlqOexX (floppy added for size comparison). > > After carefully removing it, the drive actually worked like a charm and > I was able to boot from it. I was pleasantly impressed that the drive > head has not been damaged bumping in the leather piece all the time. I > am not sure how that got there, I assume a child pushed it in by > mistake? I am not sure what it is either, the leather triangles sewn > together by hand it seem. > > What other strange pieces did you find when you opened up classic > computers? I once removed several ~1/2" diameter magnets from inside the 3.5" floppy drive of a tower-style IBM PS/2. They had apparently placed there by a disgruntled employee before he quick-formatted the hard drive. Fortunately, the magnets didn't seem to harm the boot disk I attempted to insert, but just jammed the drive. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 1 19:28:18 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2015 17:28:18 -0700 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <043401d0cca8$d6abcde0$840369a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <78C62B55-8BCD-4897-AD4A-453E4E1B1CDD@platinum.net> <043401d0cca8$d6abcde0$840369a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <55BD6422.5010005@sydex.com> On 08/01/2015 03:24 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > PS A related question. I struggled somewhat with the Weller Magnastat > No. 8 tip, when trying to solder leads to the ground plane, I could > not get the solder to stay molten very long. I was using lead-free > solder, its melting point is much lower than the temperature which a > No. 8 tip reaches. The iron is 50W. Clearly the ground plane was > taking heat away, but is it a problem with the tip not being hot > enough, the iron not powerful enough, or perhaps some operator error? I keep my "had it almost as long as my teeth" Weller D550 200/260 watt gun for the tough jobs requiring a lot of heat in a small space--soldering to big ground planes, sheet meta, or, as in this morning, soldering some AWG 12 wire to lugs on a switch. It's fast and clean and doesn't overheat the workpiece--you can be surprisingly nimble with one, as compared to, say, an American Beauty 300W iron. I never use RoHS solder--it simply doesn't wet or flow like 67/37 Sn/Pb solder. The exception is SMT where components are mounted using solder paste (powered solder+flux). If I could find some of the leaded stuff, I'd probably use it. --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Sat Aug 1 19:29:21 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 19:29:21 -0500 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150802002921.GT2513@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (08/01/2015 at 07:05PM -0400), Vlad Stamate wrote: > > I was pleasantly impressed that the > drive head has not been damaged bumping in the leather piece all the > time. I am not sure how that got there, I assume a child pushed it in > by mistake? Peter! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfEnwQsgH4I -- Chris Elmquist From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 19:33:48 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 19:33:48 -0500 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What is that item? Looks like a piece of laced (p)leather-craft from a children's summer camp project.. On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 6:05 PM, Vlad Stamate wrote: > Hi, > > I recently got a very nice HP 9816 with a 9121 drive unit from Earl > Baugh (thanks Earl!). The computer worked fine but the primary drive > of the 9121 refused to read the disk and made a continuous beating > noise. After I cleaned it on the outside I opened it to see what is > wrong with it. And I found this piece inside the drive itself: > http://imgur.com/dlqOexX (floppy added for size comparison). > > After carefully removing it, the drive actually worked like a charm > and I was able to boot from it. I was pleasantly impressed that the > drive head has not been damaged bumping in the leather piece all the > time. I am not sure how that got there, I assume a child pushed it in > by mistake? I am not sure what it is either, the leather triangles > sewn together by hand it seem. > > What other strange pieces did you find when you opened up classic > computers? > > Vlad. > From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Aug 1 19:42:03 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 20:42:03 -0400 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <55BD6422.5010005@sydex.com> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <78C62B55-8BCD-4897-AD4A-453E4E1B1CDD@platinum.net> <043401d0cca8$d6abcde0$840369a0$@ntlworld.com> <55BD6422.5010005@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 1, 2015, at 8:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ... > I never use RoHS solder--it simply doesn't wet or flow like 67/37 Sn/Pb solder. The exception is SMT where components are mounted using solder paste (powered solder+flux). If I could find some of the leaded stuff, I'd probably use it. It?s still around. Check for example www.stanleysupplyservices.com, look for solder, Kester, keyword ?paste?. The first item that came up in my search is 63/37 real solder paste. There are a bunch of entries, packages of different sizes and different flux types. paul From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 19:43:53 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 18:43:53 -0600 Subject: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure In-Reply-To: References: <288A3DDC-619A-4525-BD9E-2A7F1A4FBB73@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 5:52 PM, dwight wrote: > There we two different reference voltages on 723s. I don't recall which > was which but one had to change the feedback resistors if you used the > wrong one. There's a reference with a built-in current source and amplifier, which outputs on pin 6 on the DIP. That's the one that's specified as 7.15V ?0.35V. The 723 in DIP also has a 6.2V zener diode in series from the regulator output. It's not bonded out in the metal can package. I've never found a 723 datasheet that gives a different values for either reference. The 9.4V that I'm getting from Vref, which is tied to the amplifier IN+, exceeds the absolute maximum rating for the amplifier input, which is 8.0V or 8.5V depending on the vendor. The modern 723 datasheets seem to be dumbed down from the original ones, with some useful information removed. :-( From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 19:46:03 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 18:46:03 -0600 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: <20150801232703.GC14211@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> What other strange pieces did you find when you opened up classic >> computers? > > A TRS80 model 1 where some keys had stopped working due to an accumulation > of marijuana seeds Someone was using it wrong. No seeds or stems! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 1 19:55:54 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 17:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Aug 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > What is that item? > Looks like a piece of laced (p)leather-craft from a children's summer camp > project.. an improvised floppy drive shipping head protector? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 1 19:58:43 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 17:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: <20150801232703.GC14211@gmail.com> Message-ID: >>> What other strange pieces did you find when you opened up classic >>> computers? >> A TRS80 model 1 where some keys had stopped working due to an accumulation >> of marijuana seeds On Sat, 1 Aug 2015, Eric Smith wrote: > Someone was using it wrong. No seeds or stems! After I fixed it, they did offer me a tip From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 1 20:35:30 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 20:35:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Aug 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 6:05 PM, Vlad Stamate wrote: > >> I recently got a very nice HP 9816 with a 9121 drive unit from Earl >> Baugh (thanks Earl!). The computer worked fine but the primary drive of >> the 9121 refused to read the disk and made a continuous beating noise. >> After I cleaned it on the outside I opened it to see what is wrong with >> it. And I found this piece inside the drive itself: >> http://imgur.com/dlqOexX (floppy added for size comparison). > > What is that item? > > Looks like a piece of laced (p)leather-craft from a children's summer > camp project.. Maybe it's a money clip? From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Aug 1 21:05:28 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2015 21:05:28 -0500 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <55BD7AE8.6080502@pico-systems.com> On 08/01/2015 04:24 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Today I was able to repair the LCD monitor (admittedly a cheap one) on my > son's computer by replacing some of the electrolytic capacitors. > > I repaired an LCD monitor that they were going to trash at work. You had to massively disassemble it to get to the driver boards for the LCD panel, but there were two little SMT Tantalum caps on a switcher circuit buried in there, and one was shorted. I replaced them with two aluminum electrolytics, and my kids have been using it for years. I had another LCD that I take to shows, and lemonade or something got spilled on it, where the buttons are in the lower right corner. Over time, corrosion set in, and it thinks the buttons are being held in, causing annoying mode changes and on-screen menus. I've had to hack it twice now to fix the problem. The tiny pushbutton switches are OK, but they have a small SMT cap across the switch that gets corrosion under it. I remove the cap, clean the board and install a new cap. Still one more switch has the original cap, but maybe the juice didn't get into that one. > PS A related question. I struggled somewhat with the Weller Magnastat No. 8 > tip, when trying to solder leads to the ground plane, I could not get the > solder to stay molten very long. I was using lead-free solder, its melting > point is much lower than the temperature which a No. 8 tip reaches. The iron > is 50W. Clearly the ground plane was taking heat away, but is it a problem > with the tip not being hot enough, the iron not powerful enough, or perhaps > some operator error? When repairing CPU motherboards with bad caps, this is a really big problem. I dilute the lead-free solder with leaded solder, this helps lower the melting point to where two soldering irons (one on each side of the board) can be used to clear out the plated-through holes. Those are multilayer boards, and way worse. I now use a 65 W Weller WMP iron with WSD station, and it is great. The larger tips have great heat conduction, makes difficult soldering tasks much easier. (This is a fairly expensive setup, I got my home station on eBay.) Jon From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 1 21:40:38 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2015 19:40:38 -0700 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <55BD7AE8.6080502@pico-systems.com> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <55BD7AE8.6080502@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55BD8326.1000906@sydex.com> On 08/01/2015 07:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > When repairing CPU motherboards with bad caps, this is a really big > problem. I dilute the lead-free solder with leaded solder, this > helps lower the melting point to where two soldering irons (one on > each side of the board) can be used to clear out the plated-through > holes. Those are multilayer boards, and way worse. Ever tried using a fusible alloy such as Chip-Quick? That can make things very easy to remove without overheating the PCB. (I use a plain old PAR38 120W spotlight/reflector to heat things up. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 1 21:42:44 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2015 19:42:44 -0700 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <78C62B55-8BCD-4897-AD4A-453E4E1B1CDD@platinum.net> <043401d0cca8$d6abcde0$840369a0$@ntlworld.com> <55BD6422.5010005@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55BD83A4.5090509@sydex.com> On 08/01/2015 05:42 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > It?s still around. Check for example www.stanleysupplyservices.com, > look for solder, Kester, keyword ?paste?. The first item that came > up in my search is 63/37 real solder paste. There are a bunch of > entries, packages of different sizes and different flux types. That's very useful--the last time I searched, all that came up was paste+acid flux. --Chuck From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sat Aug 1 21:49:47 2015 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 02:49:47 +0000 Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7695F2D6F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Hi all! I recently acquired a SPARCclassic, which is my first bit of Sun hardware. Having an awful time getting it to boot from the CD-ROM. I have tried a bunch of different terminators and several different cables, but whenever I try to boot I get this: ok boot cdrom -s Boot device: /iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd at 6,0:d File and args: -s The SCSI bus is hung. Perhaps an external device is turned off. Any ideas as to what might be wrong here? The thing does not seem to send any commands to the CD-ROM, as the LED never comes on and I don't hear it doing anything... Thanks! -Ben From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Aug 1 23:07:37 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 21:07:37 -0700 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48AEABB7-0400-45D3-9997-FF02CDCFB348@nf6x.net> I found a dollar bill inside an Apple Monitor II. It appeared to have been folded into quarters and then pushed through one of the cooling slots on top of the monitor. The monitor and matching IIe computer look like they came from a school based on the property numbers engraved onto them. I've made up all sorts of theories about how some kid lost his or her dollar bill in that monitor! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 23:22:16 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 23:22:16 -0500 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <48AEABB7-0400-45D3-9997-FF02CDCFB348@nf6x.net> References: <48AEABB7-0400-45D3-9997-FF02CDCFB348@nf6x.net> Message-ID: That's an old joke. Some (newb) asks "How do you switch it on, i want to play Spacewar (or whatever)", cagey user says "You put a dollar in one of these slots"... ;-) I guarantee it. On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 11:07 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > I found a dollar bill inside an Apple Monitor II. It appeared to have been > folded into quarters and then pushed through one of the cooling slots on > top of the monitor. The monitor and matching IIe computer look like they > came from a school based on the property numbers engraved onto them. I've > made up all sorts of theories about how some kid lost his or her dollar > bill in that monitor! > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Aug 1 23:53:17 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 21:53:17 -0700 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: <48AEABB7-0400-45D3-9997-FF02CDCFB348@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <3EAEA43B-9749-4BB8-8C2D-106E9D9FD4D4@nf6x.net> > On Aug 1, 2015, at 21:22 , drlegendre . wrote: > > That's an old joke. Some (newb) asks "How do you switch it on, i want to > play Spacewar (or whatever)", cagey user says "You put a dollar in one of > these slots"... ;-) > > I guarantee it. That's my number one theory, followed by some kid just absentmindedly poking the dollar bill in the hole, then losing his grip. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Aug 1 23:53:53 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 21:53:53 -0700 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: <48AEABB7-0400-45D3-9997-FF02CDCFB348@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <1C9388C2-13B6-4556-91B7-115F8BDC7420@nf6x.net> By the way: I still keep the dollar with the computer. Just in case it's a critical component, you know. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From scaron at umich.edu Sat Aug 1 22:14:21 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 23:14:21 -0400 Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7695F2D6F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7695F2D6F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: Never had a Classic but I've wrangled plenty of other Sun workstations ... in general I have always found SCSI on Suns to be very easygoing ... you generally won't get SCSI errors unless something has gone grossly awry... I assume no internal disk? If so, definitely disconnect that and give it a shot ... This may seem a bit counterintuitive, but have you tried it with no terminator at all on the external CD-ROM? Sometimes that works. If this is your first piece of Sun kit, you probably don't have any SBus SCSI available to test? SBus SCSI 10BT+SCSI are pretty common and inexpensive; it might be worth picking one up, if only to have something where the MAC address isn't dependent on the viability of the IDPROM battery... that's my number one grumble about the old Suns. Best, Sean On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Benjamin Huntsman < BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote: > Hi all! > I recently acquired a SPARCclassic, which is my first bit of Sun > hardware. Having an awful time getting it to boot from the CD-ROM. I have > tried a bunch of different terminators and several different cables, but > whenever I try to boot I get this: > > ok boot cdrom -s > Boot device: /iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd at 6,0:d File > and args: -s > The SCSI bus is hung. Perhaps an external device is turned off. > > Any ideas as to what might be wrong here? The thing does not seem to > send any commands to the CD-ROM, as the LED never comes on and I don't hear > it doing anything... > > Thanks! > > -Ben > From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 1 23:23:34 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay jaeger) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2015 22:23:34 -0600 Subject: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure Message-ID: Sounds just like the supply on my Altos. What a pain. Eric Smith wrote: >I previously wrote about the monitor of my Intel Series II MDS going >out, which was because the +15V DC supply tripped the crowbar. The >voltage adjust was all the way to the minimum, and the voltage was >still about 17.4V with no load, and trips the crowbar with even a >small load. I think someone previously encountered this problem and >adjusted the pot rather than fixing it, and the problem has gotten >worse since. > >The root cause of the failure appears to be that the internal voltage >reference of the uA723, which is specified as 7.15V ?0.35V, is now >9.4V. The uA723 needs to be replaced. The uA723 is still readily >available, but due to the construction of the power supply, replacing >it is relatively difficult. Just probing the pins of the chip was a >challenge. The pass transistors are mounted to 1/8 inch aluminum >plate, but the pins are soldered into rivets in the single-sided PCB, >entering from the etch side (which is closest to the aluminum), so >they will have to be desoldered to get at the etch side to replace the >723. I considered just cutting the pins of the 723 and soldering >another (or a socket) onto it from the component side, but pins 1-7 of >the 723 are right next to a big axial electrolytic so there's no way I >can solder that side. Input and output wires to the board are soldered >into single-pin cup thingies on two opposite edges of the board, so I >can't even get the board into an orientation suitable for working on >it without desoldering or cutting some of the wires. > >I haven't bench-tested the monitor, because I haven't kludged up a >suitable signal source yet, but I don't think there's anything wrong >with it. From shadoooo at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 03:04:38 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 10:04:38 +0200 Subject: Saved DEC kit Message-ID: Hello Adrian, how are you? Maybe you still have the SDI disks aside for me? Any time to ship them to me? Thanks in advance! Andrea From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Sun Aug 2 06:49:28 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 12:49:28 +0100 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <1C9388C2-13B6-4556-91B7-115F8BDC7420@nf6x.net> References: <48AEABB7-0400-45D3-9997-FF02CDCFB348@nf6x.net> <1C9388C2-13B6-4556-91B7-115F8BDC7420@nf6x.net> Message-ID: I once found a whole box worth of crayola crayons in a 1541 disk drive. What amazes me is how nothing was blocked and they hadn't melted. On 2 August 2015 at 05:53, Mark J. Blair wrote: > By the way: I still keep the dollar with the computer. Just in case it's a > critical component, you know. :) > > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 07:04:54 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 13:04:54 +0100 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: <48AEABB7-0400-45D3-9997-FF02CDCFB348@nf6x.net> <1C9388C2-13B6-4556-91B7-115F8BDC7420@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <023f01d0cd1b$724ec3c0$56ec4b40$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Moss > Sent: 02 August 2015 12:49 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Unusual stuff inside computers > > I once found a whole box worth of crayola crayons in a 1541 disk drive. > > What amazes me is how nothing was blocked and they hadn't melted. > One of my friends complained their apple printer was making funny noises, I turned it upside down and shook it. Out fell half a dozen "lego" bricks.. (I assume you have lego in the USA) > On 2 August 2015 at 05:53, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > By the way: I still keep the dollar with the computer. Just in case > > it's a critical component, you know. :) > > > > > > -- > > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > > > Dave G4UGM From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Sun Aug 2 07:08:46 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 13:08:46 +0100 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <023f01d0cd1b$724ec3c0$56ec4b40$@gmail.com> References: <48AEABB7-0400-45D3-9997-FF02CDCFB348@nf6x.net> <1C9388C2-13B6-4556-91B7-115F8BDC7420@nf6x.net> <023f01d0cd1b$724ec3c0$56ec4b40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm British :) On 2 August 2015 at 13:04, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom > Moss > > Sent: 02 August 2015 12:49 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Unusual stuff inside computers > > > > I once found a whole box worth of crayola crayons in a 1541 disk drive. > > > > What amazes me is how nothing was blocked and they hadn't melted. > > > > One of my friends complained their apple printer was making funny noises, > I turned it upside down and shook it. Out fell half a dozen "lego" bricks.. > (I assume you have lego in the USA) > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 2 07:27:45 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 08:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7695F2D6F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7695F2D6F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <201508021227.IAA10199@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I recently acquired a SPARCclassic, which is my first bit of Sun hardware. $ Please don't use paragraph-length lines. > ok boot cdrom -s > Boot device: /iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd at 6,0:d File and args: -s > The SCSI bus is hung. Perhaps an external device is turned off. > Any ideas as to what might be wrong here? Perhaps the SCSI interface is fried. Does it still exhibit the same symptom with nothing at all plugged into the external SCSI connector? Perhaps the external CD drive is fried. Have you tried it on another machine? Given that there are only four parts involved (the Classic, the drive, the terminator, and the cable) and you've swapped out two of them multiple times, those strike me as the most plausible alternatives. Do any of the terminators you've tried have power-on lights? Most SPARCstations have a fuse in the terminator power line, which might be blown - though admittedly in my experience that doesn't lead to a hung bus, especially if you're using short cables. Can the CD drive be switched or jumpered to provide its own termination (in which case you should leave off the external terminator)? > The thing does not seem to send any commands to the CD-ROM, It's probably issuing that message very early, likely while still probing for device presence. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 07:45:42 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2015 07:45:42 -0500 Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7695F2D6F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7695F2D6F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <55BE10F6.2020008@gmail.com> On 08/01/2015 09:49 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Hi all! I recently acquired a SPARCclassic, which is my first bit of Sun > hardware. Having an awful time getting it to boot from the CD-ROM. I > have tried a bunch of different terminators and several different > cables, but whenever I try to boot I get this: Assuming this is a stock Sun drive unit, as a first step I'd say open the drive case and make sure the drive is getting +5 and +12V, and that the external ID selector switch cables are still attached to the back of the drive. cheers Jules From jws at jwsss.com Sun Aug 2 09:58:12 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:58:12 -0700 Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7695F2D6F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7695F2D6F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <55BE3004.2050105@jwsss.com> On 8/1/2015 7:49 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Hi all! > I recently acquired a SPARCclassic, which is my_*first bit*_ of Sun hardware. Having an awful time getting it to boot from the CD-ROM. I have tried a bunch of different terminators and several different cables, but whenever I try to boot I get this: > > ok boot cdrom -s > Boot device: /iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd at 6,0:d File and args: -s > The SCSI bus is hung. Perhaps an external device is turned off. > > Any ideas as to what might be wrong here? The thing does not seem to send any commands to the CD-ROM, as the LED never comes on and I don't hear it doing anything... > > Thanks! > > -Ben The early suns were very picky about which drives they liked. There was an issue with the read size and when the software would change from I think the standard CDROM 2k size reads to 512, most cdroms would choke and die. Use a Sun411 (with a real sun 411 drive) which I think were toshibas and one other brand, or a plextor. The Toshiba 3401's became very popular because there was a jumper you could change to render them functional on sparc stations back in the day, and they were much faster than the drives in the original 411 cases. I'm putting in this bit of explanation because of your first paragraph. If you supplied one of your own Cdrom drives this may be the problem. thanks jim From abs at absd.org Sun Aug 2 10:14:53 2015 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2015 16:14:53 +0100 Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7695F2D6F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7695F2D6F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On 2 August 2015 03:49:47 BST, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: >Hi all! >I recently acquired a SPARCclassic, which is my first bit of Sun >hardware. Having an awful time getting it to boot from the CD-ROM. I >have tried a bunch of different terminators and several different >cables, but whenever I try to boot I get this: > >ok boot cdrom -s >Boot device: /iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd at 6,0:d File >and args: -s >The SCSI bus is hung. Perhaps an external device is turned off. > >Any ideas as to what might be wrong here? The thing does not seem to >send any commands to the CD-ROM, as the LED never comes on and I don't >hear it doing anything... There have probably been enough replies on the CD, so I thought it might be helpful to mention some other boot options :) If you have a SCSI disk and controller in another device you can dd an installed system into the disk. Last I checked qemu sparc worked quite well to install onto an image (or any number of people on the list could provide a suitable disk image) Sparcs also netboot well, you just need rarpd and tftpd to get a the bootloader across, after which bootp and nfsd (or bootparamd if you are very old school :). Even if you get the CD working it's nice to keep a netboot setup around. Alternatively if the floppy drive has not expired you can boot from that... Once you have an OS loaded it gives another way to test the CD From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Aug 2 10:28:15 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2015 10:28:15 -0500 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <55BD8326.1000906@sydex.com> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <55BD7AE8.6080502@pico-systems.com> <55BD8326.1000906@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55BE370F.1060700@pico-systems.com> On 08/01/2015 09:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/01/2015 07:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> When repairing CPU motherboards with bad caps, this is a >> really big >> problem. I dilute the lead-free solder with leaded >> solder, this >> helps lower the melting point to where two soldering >> irons (one on >> each side of the board) can be used to clear out the >> plated-through >> holes. Those are multilayer boards, and way worse. > > Ever tried using a fusible alloy such as Chip-Quick? That > can make things very easy to remove without overheating > the PCB. (I use a plain old PAR38 120W spotlight/reflector > to heat things up. > Diluting the tin solder with SnPb works quite well, I have used this trick many times to fix boards with large ground planes. I don't do these sorts of repairs often, so I would lose special stuff like Chip-Quick and never be able to find it. Last batch, my boss volunteered me to re-cap a dozen Dell PCs they were going to trash at work, WITHOUT consulting with me first! Jon From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Aug 2 10:51:19 2015 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 17:51:19 +0200 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <55BE3C77.3030207@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Am 01.08.15 um 23:24 schrieb Robert Jarratt: > PS A related question. I struggled somewhat with the Weller Magnastat No. 8 > tip, when trying to solder leads to the ground plane, I could not get the > solder to stay molten very long. Wellers are notorious for this. I had to use various Weller irons at occasion. They all suffered from the same problem: To high thermal resistance between heater and tip. It is a pain to (de)solder to a ground plane, as the heat can't flow from the heater to the tip fast enough. I consider Wellers unusable for this reason. If you wane go with new soldering equipment I highly recommend Metcal, OKi MFR or Thermaltronics. (OKi bought Metcal and sells Metcal technology, Thermaltronics is a Chinese clone of the old Metcal systems after the patents expired. A Thermaltronics TMT-2000S is around ?160 in the UK.) They use a unique inductive heating with Curie effect temperature regulation. I bought a OKi MFR and it is by _far_ the best soldering equipment I used ever. The iron is small and easy to handle, but is able to deliver lots of heat instantaneously if needed. p.s. As others noted: Stay away from lead free solder. It is harder to work with and the fumes from the flux aren't that healthy... -- tsch??, Jochen From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 2 12:42:04 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 13:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7695F2D6F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <55BE509C.9090105@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <201508021742.NAA02399@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Are SCSI ID numbers likely to be an issue? No. Possible, certainly, but I would not say likely. > Which ones are most commonly used on SparcClassic? Disk at 0, 1, 2, 3; tape at 4, 5; CD at 6; the Classic itself at 7. Those are what SunOS used, unless you reconfigured your kernel, and my wild guess is that they're still the commonest, though modern systems normally classify devices based on what they are rather than what ID they're at. (I don't know which camp post-SunOS versions of Solaris fall into, though I would hope it's the one I called `modern'.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Aug 2 13:09:36 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 20:09:36 +0200 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150802180936.GA25454@Update.UU.SE> On Sat, Aug 01, 2015 at 07:05:35PM -0400, Vlad Stamate wrote: > > What other strange pieces did you find when you opened up classic computers? > A dead rodent inside an otherwise nice looking Norsk Data ND-500 A four inch crooked nail inside a LINC-8 It is really a good idea to peak inside a computer that is new to you before you power it up. /P From rickb at bensene.com Sun Aug 2 13:41:16 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2015 11:41:16 -0700 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers Message-ID: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> A faded semi-nude 4x6 photo of a woman on a beach inside an IBM PC-XT that I found in a thrift shop many years ago. How or why it was in there is anyone's guess. -Rick From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 13:53:22 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 14:53:22 -0400 Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom Message-ID: > From: Benjamin Huntsman > Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom > > Hi all! > I recently acquired a SPARCclassic, which is my first bit of Sun > hardware. Having an awful time getting it to boot from the CD-ROM. I have > tried a bunch of different terminators and several different cables, but > whenever I try to boot I get this: > > ok boot cdrom -s > Boot device: /iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd at 6,0:d File > and args: -s > The SCSI bus is hung. Perhaps an external device is turned off. > > Any ideas as to what might be wrong here? The thing does not seem to > send any commands to the CD-ROM, as the LED never comes on and I don't hear > it doing anything... > > Thanks! > > -Ben > The terminator on the end of the SCSI bus needs to be powered. Without power on the terminator the bus will hang. Sometimes the power comes from the SPARC through the SCSI cable, but not all SCSI cables pass the power. Sometimes there is a jumper or switch on the last drive to enable SCSI terminator power. -- Michael Thompson From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 2 13:55:10 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2015 11:55:10 -0700 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> On 08/02/2015 11:41 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > A faded semi-nude 4x6 photo of a woman on a beach inside an IBM > PC-XT that I found in a thrift shop many years ago. How or why it > was in there is anyone's guess. Well, XT's weren't too good for pornography back then, I guess--so it was more of a matter of "bring your own". Turning this discussion on its head, I wonder if I'm the only one to stash manuals and setup CDs in the cases of my systems. Has anyone ever picked up an old system and found system documentation inside? Just wondering if I'm the exception... --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 2 13:57:14 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 18:57:14 +0000 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com>, <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > Turning this discussion on its head, I wonder if I'm the only one to > stash manuals and setup CDs in the cases of my systems. Has anyone ever > picked up an old system and found system documentation inside? Some years back I rescued the logic box and keyboard of an IBM ASCII (!) terminal. The quick-reference guide was (correctly) stored in a little drawer on the logic box. But even better, upon removing the top cover of said logic unit I found an offiical label giving the pinouts of all the connectors in the system. Not only did this give me the power connections (the power supply was in the monitor which I didn't get) but also the pinout of the option cartridge connector giving the processor address and data buses. Very handy... -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:15:14 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 15:15:14 -0400 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Turning this discussion on its head, I wonder if I'm the only one to stash > manuals and setup CDs in the cases of my systems. Has anyone ever picked up > an old system and found system documentation inside? > > Just wondering if I'm the exception... Just you and IBM. -- Will From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 09:19:52 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 10:19:52 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 at the RICM (Michael Thompson) Message-ID: With a lot of help from Dave Gesswein and Warren Stearns we were able to get the MARK12 PDP-12 tape formatting program off a LINCtape and int paper tape format. Running it showed that a diode on the field-0 core stack had failed during the week making memory in the range of 4000-5000 unusable. Fortunately we had a spare core memory stack so we were running again in a few minutes. We have traced and replaced diodes on core stacks before, so we will fix the broken core stack. We were able to format a LINCtape, but running it without a video display was a little challenging. The tape diags work better with the reformatted LINCtapes, but still not perfectly. It looks like there is an issue in the selection logic in the TU56. That should not be difficult to debug and fix. We booted LAPS6-DIAL from LINCtape. The VT14 display is not working yet, so we were driving blind. We could see some fuzzy characters displayed on an oscilloscope so we could see that our typing was actually getting handled by the editor. We tried three different oscilloscopes, but none have an intensity or blanking input so the display was not readable. We couldn't find any documentation for booting OS/12 from LINCtape, so Warren looked through an octal dump and found that block zero is the boot block, just like OS/8. The OS/12 boot block starts at 0020 like many LINC programs. Since this uses the serial console we were able to interact with the OS normally. This is the first time in 24 years that an OS has been run on this system. -- Michael Thompson From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 09:44:01 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 10:44:01 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 at the RICM (Michael Thompson) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: great news. hope for further success. On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > With a lot of help from Dave Gesswein and Warren Stearns we were able to > get the MARK12 PDP-12 tape formatting program off a LINCtape and int paper > tape format. Running it showed that a diode on the field-0 core stack had > failed during the week making memory in the range of 4000-5000 unusable. > Fortunately we had a spare core memory stack so we were running again in a > few minutes. We have traced and replaced diodes on core stacks before, so > we will fix the broken core stack. > > We were able to format a LINCtape, but running it without a video display > was a little challenging. The tape diags work better with the reformatted > LINCtapes, but still not perfectly. It looks like there is an issue in the > selection logic in the TU56. That should not be difficult to debug and fix. > > We booted LAPS6-DIAL from LINCtape. The VT14 display is not working yet, so > we were driving blind. We could see some fuzzy characters displayed on an > oscilloscope so we could see that our typing was actually getting handled > by the editor. We tried three different oscilloscopes, but none have an > intensity or blanking input so the display was not readable. > > We couldn't find any documentation for booting OS/12 from LINCtape, so > Warren looked through an octal dump and found that block zero is the boot > block, just like OS/8. The OS/12 boot block starts at 0020 like many LINC > programs. Since this uses the serial console we were able to interact with > the OS normally. > > This is the first time in 24 years that an OS has been run on this system. > > -- > Michael Thompson -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Aug 2 09:59:48 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 10:59:48 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 at the RICM (Michael Thompson) Message-ID: <115da5.1f623c27.42ef8a64@aol.com> Congrats Michael! "This is the first time in 24 years that an OS has been run on this system." Ed# and crew at smecc.org In a message dated 8/2/2015 7:20:02 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, michael.99.thompson at gmail.com writes: With a lot of help from Dave Gesswein and Warren Stearns we were able to get the MARK12 PDP-12 tape formatting program off a LINCtape and int paper tape format. Running it showed that a diode on the field-0 core stack had failed during the week making memory in the range of 4000-5000 unusable. Fortunately we had a spare core memory stack so we were running again in a few minutes. We have traced and replaced diodes on core stacks before, so we will fix the broken core stack. We were able to format a LINCtape, but running it without a video display was a little challenging. The tape diags work better with the reformatted LINCtapes, but still not perfectly. It looks like there is an issue in the selection logic in the TU56. That should not be difficult to debug and fix. We booted LAPS6-DIAL from LINCtape. The VT14 display is not working yet, so we were driving blind. We could see some fuzzy characters displayed on an oscilloscope so we could see that our typing was actually getting handled by the editor. We tried three different oscilloscopes, but none have an intensity or blanking input so the display was not readable. We couldn't find any documentation for booting OS/12 from LINCtape, so Warren looked through an octal dump and found that block zero is the boot block, just like OS/8. The OS/12 boot block starts at 0020 like many LINC programs. Since this uses the serial console we were able to interact with the OS normally. This is the first time in 24 years that an OS has been run on this system. -- Michael Thompson From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Aug 2 12:17:16 2015 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 10:17:16 -0700 Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7695F2D6F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <55BE509C.9090105@snowmoose.com> I collect Sun lunchbox systems like the Classic. When I get the SCSI bus is hung message, I add or remove the SCSI terminator, depending on whether one is present and, in my experience, the problem usually goes away. alan On 8/1/15 8:14 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Never had a Classic but I've wrangled plenty of other Sun workstations ... > in general I have always found SCSI on Suns to be very easygoing ... you > generally won't get SCSI errors unless something has gone grossly awry... I > assume no internal disk? If so, definitely disconnect that and give it a > shot ... > > This may seem a bit counterintuitive, but have you tried it with no > terminator at all on the external CD-ROM? Sometimes that works. > > If this is your first piece of Sun kit, you probably don't have any SBus > SCSI available to test? SBus SCSI 10BT+SCSI are pretty common and > inexpensive; it might be worth picking one up, if only to have something > where the MAC address isn't dependent on the viability of the IDPROM > battery... that's my number one grumble about the old Suns. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Benjamin Huntsman < > BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote: > >> Hi all! >> I recently acquired a SPARCclassic, which is my first bit of Sun >> hardware. Having an awful time getting it to boot from the CD-ROM. I have >> tried a bunch of different terminators and several different cables, but >> whenever I try to boot I get this: >> >> ok boot cdrom -s >> Boot device: /iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd at 6,0:d File >> and args: -s >> The SCSI bus is hung. Perhaps an external device is turned off. >> >> Any ideas as to what might be wrong here? The thing does not seem to >> send any commands to the CD-ROM, as the LED never comes on and I don't hear >> it doing anything... >> >> Thanks! >> >> -Ben >> From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 2 12:23:28 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 10:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom In-Reply-To: <55BE509C.9090105@snowmoose.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7695F2D6F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <55BE509C.9090105@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Are SCSI ID numbers likely to be an issue? Which ones are most commonly used on SparcClassic? From scaron at umich.edu Sun Aug 2 16:35:34 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 17:35:34 -0400 Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh! And if you're using the "boot cdrom" mnemonic, make sure that your CD-ROM is actually set to SCSI ID 6, otherwise you need to substitute in your boot path i.e. /iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd@{scsiid},0 Definitely check that! Best, Sean On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > > From: Benjamin Huntsman > > Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom > > > > Hi all! > > I recently acquired a SPARCclassic, which is my first bit of Sun > > hardware. Having an awful time getting it to boot from the CD-ROM. I > have > > tried a bunch of different terminators and several different cables, but > > whenever I try to boot I get this: > > > > ok boot cdrom -s > > Boot device: /iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd at 6,0:d File > > and args: -s > > The SCSI bus is hung. Perhaps an external device is turned off. > > > > Any ideas as to what might be wrong here? The thing does not seem to > > send any commands to the CD-ROM, as the LED never comes on and I don't > hear > > it doing anything... > > > > Thanks! > > > > -Ben > > > > The terminator on the end of the SCSI bus needs to be powered. Without > power on the terminator the bus will hang. Sometimes the power comes from > the SPARC through the SCSI cable, but not all SCSI cables pass the power. > Sometimes there is a jumper or switch on the last drive to enable SCSI > terminator power. > > -- > Michael Thompson > From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Aug 2 17:25:53 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2015 17:25:53 -0500 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <55BE3C77.3030207@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <55BE3C77.3030207@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <55BE98F1.2030601@pico-systems.com> On 08/02/2015 10:51 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Am 01.08.15 um 23:24 schrieb Robert Jarratt: >> PS A related question. I struggled somewhat with the Weller Magnastat No. 8 >> tip, when trying to solder leads to the ground plane, I could not get the >> solder to stay molten very long. > Wellers are notorious for this. I had to use various Weller irons at > occasion. They all suffered from the same problem: To high thermal > resistance between heater and tip. It is a pain to (de)solder to a > ground plane, as the heat can't flow from the heater to the tip fast > enough. I consider Wellers unusable for this reason. > > Thia may well be true with some old Weller designs. I thought the EC1302 and related irons were really well-designed, but they are now obsolete. The tip had a hole drilled up the back where a temperature sensor fit, and the heater surrounded the OD of the tip. The problem with them is if you let the plating break down, the solder amalgamates with the copper core of the tip and swells it, and then you can't remove it from the heater. That's a $60 repair part! The Weller WMP is 65 Watts, and has a hollow tip that the heater-sensor pokes up into. These seem to work well, and the larger sized tips have no shortage of thermal conductivity. (The above are not stand-alone irons, but need an electronically-controlled station.) Jon From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Aug 2 17:42:51 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 23:42:51 +0100 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <20150802180936.GA25454@Update.UU.SE> References: <20150802180936.GA25454@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <55BE9CEB.9010002@btinternet.com> One of my first jobs at DEC was on terminal sales. The LA36 printing terminal had the logic and PSU cards mounted in the plinth. The logic card was on the back of the pull down door and the PSU inside. So easy to service it wasn't true. This compartment was quite roomy and inside fresh ones just arrived you would find all kinds of stuff: Wrapped food of all kinds Bibles Copies of the Boston Globe Cigarette packets (full and partly full) Assorted screwdrivers Spanners Loose change A note saying "meet me at the rusty scupper" (local bar) Rod On 02/08/2015 19:09, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Sat, Aug 01, 2015 at 07:05:35PM -0400, Vlad Stamate wrote: >> What other strange pieces did you find when you opened up classic computers? >> > A dead rodent inside an otherwise nice looking Norsk Data ND-500 > > A four inch crooked nail inside a LINC-8 > > It is really a good idea to peak inside a computer that is new to you > before you power it up. > > /P From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Aug 2 21:08:20 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 19:08:20 -0700 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0EB2984E-E580-41FA-8012-F8E2369AAED4@nf6x.net> > On Aug 2, 2015, at 12:15, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Turning this discussion on its head, I wonder if I'm the only one to stash >> manuals and setup CDs in the cases of my systems. Has anyone ever picked up >> an old system and found system documentation inside? >> >> Just wondering if I'm the exception... > > Just you and IBM. And some 1950s military radio manufacturers, who screen printed schematic diagrams onto cloth and stashed them inside the radios. The schematics were secured to the inside of the radio with a length of cloth ribbon, then folded up tightly and stuffed into a metal tube secured to the radio chassis. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 21:10:34 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 22:10:34 -0400 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <0EB2984E-E580-41FA-8012-F8E2369AAED4@nf6x.net> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <0EB2984E-E580-41FA-8012-F8E2369AAED4@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > And some 1950s military radio manufacturers, who screen printed schematic diagrams onto cloth and stashed them inside the radios. If you are thinking about that early GRC stuff, that was silk! -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 2 22:41:38 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2015 20:41:38 -0700 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <0EB2984E-E580-41FA-8012-F8E2369AAED4@nf6x.net> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <0EB2984E-E580-41FA-8012-F8E2369AAED4@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <55BEE2F2.1090101@sydex.com> On 08/02/2015 07:08 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > And some 1950s military radio manufacturers, who screen printed > schematic diagrams onto cloth and stashed them inside the radios. The > schematics were secured to the inside of the radio with a length of > cloth ribbon, then folded up tightly and stuffed into a metal tube > secured to the radio chassis. It wasn't uncommon to see the same thing in 30s-50s radios, with the schematic pasted inside the cabinet. For me, a zip-lock freezer bag works just fine. --Chuck From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Aug 2 22:59:59 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 20:59:59 -0700 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <0EB2984E-E580-41FA-8012-F8E2369AAED4@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <20D8F4BB-EC17-41DC-A794-D01F2987AD95@nf6x.net> > On Aug 2, 2015, at 19:10, William Donzelli wrote: > >> And some 1950s military radio manufacturers, who screen printed schematic diagrams onto cloth and stashed them inside the radios. > > If you are thinking about that early GRC stuff, that was silk! Oh wow, I thought it was something like Rayon. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 23:32:22 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 21:32:22 -0700 Subject: Inverse Assembler for HP10343B SCSI Bus Preprocessor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D71443D0934CD58F62C35976AC4077@workshop> Anyone has the Inverse Assembly and Logic Analyzer setup files that should go with the HP 10343B SCSI bus pre-processor? Another one that I wasn't able to find online. Marc From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 2 23:42:48 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 21:42:48 -0700 Subject: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <288A3DDC-619A-4525-BD9E-2A7F1A4FBB73@cs.ubc.ca>, , , Message-ID: > From: spacewar at gmail.com > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 5:52 PM, dwight wrote: > > There we two different reference voltages on 723s. I don't recall which > > was which but one had to change the feedback resistors if you used the > > wrong one. > > There's a reference with a built-in current source and amplifier, > which outputs on pin 6 on the DIP. That's the one that's specified as > 7.15V ?0.35V. > > The 723 in DIP also has a 6.2V zener diode in series from the > regulator output. It's not bonded out in the metal can package. > > I've never found a 723 datasheet that gives a different values for > either reference. > The one I had to replace on my Nicolet oscilloscope was made by Lambda. I don't recall the reference voltage but I did have to change the feedback resistors to get it to work. I could dig up the schematic if you are interested more. The Lambda one had failed. It was in a can and I could not get the same reference voltage so made the resistor change. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 2 23:53:29 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 04:53:29 +0000 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <0EB2984E-E580-41FA-8012-F8E2369AAED4@nf6x.net> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> , <0EB2984E-E580-41FA-8012-F8E2369AAED4@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > > And some 1950s military radio manufacturers, who screen printed schematic diagrams onto > cloth and stashed them inside the radios. The schematics were secured to the inside of the > radio with a length of cloth ribbon, then folded up tightly and stuffed into a metal tube > secured to the radio chassis. Bang and Olufsen used to provide a (paper) schematic folded up and tucked into an envelope inside their audio equipment (including portable radios). Not TVs for some reason, though, -tony From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 2 23:56:34 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 21:56:34 -0700 Subject: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <288A3DDC-619A-4525-BD9E-2A7F1A4FBB73@cs.ubc.ca>, , , , Message-ID: Well, I had to look it up. The LAS723 comes with a 2.5V reference and not a 7V. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 2 23:56:36 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 04:56:36 +0000 Subject: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <288A3DDC-619A-4525-BD9E-2A7F1A4FBB73@cs.ubc.ca>, , , , Message-ID: > > I've never found a 723 datasheet that gives a different values for > > either reference. > > Nor have I > The one I had to replace on my Nicolet oscilloscope was made by > Lambda. I don't recall the reference voltage but I did have to change > the feedback resistors to get it to work. I seem to remember that Lambda used a semi-custom IC that was the same as a 723 in pinout and function, but had a different reference voltage. Whether this was simply to make you get spares from them or for some actually useful reason I don't know. Was the failed IC marked '723' or some house number? -tony From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 00:33:10 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 23:33:10 -0600 Subject: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure In-Reply-To: References: <288A3DDC-619A-4525-BD9E-2A7F1A4FBB73@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 10:56 PM, dwight wrote: > Well, I had to look it up. The LAS723 comes with a 2.5V reference > and not a 7V. Cool! Thanks for the warning about it. Fortunately the Power-One supply I'm dealing with only uses normal 723s, but I'll have to bear that in mind when working on linear power supplies in the future. From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Aug 3 00:47:27 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 22:47:27 -0700 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <55BE98F1.2030601@pico-systems.com> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <55BE3C77.3030207@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <55BE98F1.2030601@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <04B0EC79-3B76-4326-B4F2-4B6F5483C2AF@nf6x.net> Once I tried my first Metcal MX-500 series iron, I never went back. With proper tip selection and technique, the same pencil iron will work for anything from 0201 components to PL-259 connectors. And it heats up and stabilizes in under 30 seconds from a cold start after a tip swap. I've spent a lot of hours swapping 0201 and 0402 inductors and caps with a pair of Metcal irons and a microscope while tuning up GPS receiver front ends in my day job. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Aug 3 01:21:45 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 08:21:45 +0200 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20150803062145.GA25852@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Aug 02, 2015 at 11:55:10AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Turning this discussion on its head, I wonder if I'm the only one to > stash manuals and setup CDs in the cases of my systems. Has anyone > ever picked up an old system and found system documentation inside? > Not really inside but I got an IBM 3270PC (it's just a 5150 with some extras to make it a terminal emulator). But it was "upgraded" with a new motherboard and a 486 CPU. In an open 5.25" inch slot was the manual for the motherboard, it fit rather snuggly and easily accesible from the front. /P From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Aug 3 06:23:56 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 12:23:56 +0100 Subject: Front Panel Update Message-ID: <55BF4F4C.8040709@btinternet.com> Hi Guys The drawings for pdp8/e (A), pdp8/e (B), pdp8/f and pdp8/m have now gone to the silkscreeners for checking and costing. I'll let you all know when they are available. Those who chose to prepay but to wait for the version they needed will go out first. One issue I need to clear up. Are PDP-8/i and pdp-8/l thats (i) and (l) the same due to font ambiguity or different? For the 8/e pair I had a scan (ie done with a scanner) to work with. The /f and /m look fine but I'm very fussy about being spot on. Photos help but the sphereical abberation due to a round lens trying to photograph a square object is a problem. This together with the fact that photos are never taken at right angles to and lined up with the centre of the panel make it difficult to be absolutely shure Is there anybody there that has an /f or /m panel and a big enough scanner. Or else I'd be happy to do a new for old on a scrap /f /m panel that is still readable Rod Smallwood From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Aug 3 07:35:33 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 14:35:33 +0200 Subject: Front Panel Update In-Reply-To: <55BF4F4C.8040709@btinternet.com> References: <55BF4F4C.8040709@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20150803123533.GB25852@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Aug 03, 2015 at 12:23:56PM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi Guys > The drawings for pdp8/e (A), pdp8/e (B), pdp8/f and > pdp8/m have now gone to the silkscreeners for checking and costing. > I'll let you all know when they are available. Those who chose to > prepay but to wait for the version they needed will go out first. > > One issue I need to clear up. Are PDP-8/i and pdp-8/l thats (i) and > (l) the same due to font ambiguity or different? 8/i and 8/l are distincly different. If you want to group them 8/e/f/m are similar and the rest are distinct from eachother. See here for an overview: http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/pan08.htm /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Aug 3 07:35:33 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 14:35:33 +0200 Subject: Front Panel Update In-Reply-To: <55BF4F4C.8040709@btinternet.com> References: <55BF4F4C.8040709@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20150803123533.GB25852@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Aug 03, 2015 at 12:23:56PM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi Guys > The drawings for pdp8/e (A), pdp8/e (B), pdp8/f and > pdp8/m have now gone to the silkscreeners for checking and costing. > I'll let you all know when they are available. Those who chose to > prepay but to wait for the version they needed will go out first. > > One issue I need to clear up. Are PDP-8/i and pdp-8/l thats (i) and > (l) the same due to font ambiguity or different? 8/i and 8/l are distincly different. If you want to group them 8/e/f/m are similar and the rest are distinct from eachother. See here for an overview: http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/pan08.htm /P From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Aug 3 08:05:51 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 14:05:51 +0100 Subject: Front Panel Update In-Reply-To: <20150803123533.GB25852@Update.UU.SE> References: <55BF4F4C.8040709@btinternet.com> <20150803123533.GB25852@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <55BF672F.9000703@btinternet.com> Hi Pontus Thanks that clears up one or two things. I worked on a straight 8 with its clear cover on top along with a couple of 8/e's at Harwell. Whilst at DEC 1975 onwards I saw loads of 8/a's and the odd 8/e lurking on the top of a filing cabinet. As far as I can remember I never saw an 8/i,8/i, 8/f,8/s or 8/m used in house. By that time flavor of the month was the PDP-11/34A. We sold a hell of alot of those. I have one awaiting restoration. I can't remember if they have a switching psu or not. It matters not. Turf out all electrolytic capacitors on sight. Regards Rod On 03/08/2015 13:35, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Mon, Aug 03, 2015 at 12:23:56PM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Hi Guys >> The drawings for pdp8/e (A), pdp8/e (B), pdp8/f and >> pdp8/m have now gone to the silkscreeners for checking and costing. >> I'll let you all know when they are available. Those who chose to >> prepay but to wait for the version they needed will go out first. >> >> One issue I need to clear up. Are PDP-8/i and pdp-8/l thats (i) and >> (l) the same due to font ambiguity or different? > 8/i and 8/l are distincly different. > > If you want to group them 8/e/f/m are similar and the rest are distinct > from eachother. See here for an overview: > > http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/pan08.htm > > /P From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 3 08:18:00 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 06:18:00 -0700 Subject: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , , <288A3DDC-619A-4525-BD9E-2A7F1A4FBB73@cs.ubc.ca>, , , , , , , , , Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > Was the failed IC marked '723' or some house number? > > -tony Hi Tony As I recall, it was marked LAS723-2.5Luckily, before I simply replaced it, I checked the feedbackresistor values. They didn't make sense for 7V.My guess is that it made using the 723 for 5V supplies morepractical, although it could be wired up.The data sheet seems to indicate a better tolerance.The 2.5V references are usually bandgap and are tightertolerance. As I recall, in the supply I was working on, it was a low current 12V line.Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 3 08:33:23 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 13:33:23 +0000 Subject: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , , <288A3DDC-619A-4525-BD9E-2A7F1A4FBB73@cs.ubc.ca>, , , , , , , , , , Message-ID: > > > > Was the failed IC marked '723' or some house number? > > > > -tony > > Hi Tony As I recall, it was marked LAS723-2.5Luckily, before I simply replaced it, I checked the > feedbackresistor values. They didn't make sense for 7V.My guess is that it made using the 723 > for 5V supplies morepractical, although it could be wired up.The data sheet seems to indicate The error amplifier of the 723 has both inputs brought out, the reference is not connected to it [1]. So for 5V (or voltages under the reference voltage) you can link the sense wire directly to the +ve input of the error amplifier and a divided down refence to the -ve input. The only practcal advantage of the lower reference is that you can run the chip with a lower supply voltage I guess [1] It is not at all uncommon in systems with multiple 723s to use the reference of only one of them, feeding the error amplifiers of all the ICs. All PSU outputs should then track together. Or in some cases to ignore the reference altogether and, for example tie one input of the error amplifier to ground and the other to a potential divider between the output of that section (configured as a -ve regulator) and a positive supply rail. This then gives you supplies balanced about the ground rail. HP98x0 machines are one place this turns up, there are many others. > a better tolerance.The 2.5V references are usually bandgap and are tightertolerance. As I recall, > in the supply I was working on, it was a low current 12V line.Dwight Possibly, although for most applications this would not be important. -tony From chrise at pobox.com Mon Aug 3 08:41:32 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 08:41:32 -0500 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <20150803062145.GA25852@Update.UU.SE> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <20150803062145.GA25852@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20150803134132.GK12471@n0jcf.net> Most Cray systems shipped from Chippewa Falls with several cases of Leinenkugel's beer inside. This was intended for the SEs after they got the system installed and up and running and not for the customer :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 3 08:48:46 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 06:48:46 -0700 Subject: PDP-12 at the RICM (Michael Thompson) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Getting an old machine like this back to running is always great news. It is one less piece of history that is lost. When the early computer designers made these first OS for these machines, I don't think they'd been exposed to the consuming effects of "Moore's Law" yet. Most felt they were creating something to last for 20 years. So much is lost to just being ignored after a couple years. When asked why I work on old machines, they ask what good is it. I try to explain that it is something like being a historian. It helps to save the bits and pieces of history that are more than just the electronics in a metal box. It is more close to the people that created it. Dwight From macro at linux-mips.org Mon Aug 3 10:20:23 2015 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 16:20:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: <043601d0ccad$8b1d34e0$a1579ea0$@ntlworld.com> References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <78C62B55-8BCD-4897-AD4A-453E4E1B1CDD@platinum.net> <043401d0cca8$d6abcde0$840369a0$@ntlworld.com> <1D9C0A4A-C243-4A6E-A27D-F03D3E6A428A@platinum.net> <043601d0ccad$8b1d34e0$a1579ea0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Aug 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > Thanks for the suggestion, but Hakko appears not to be available in the UK. > > On ebay I can find US sellers and Chinese sellers. I suspect the Chinese ones are > > imitations, so I would prefer to avoid those. > > > > Sorry - missed the UK part :) > > > > Did some googling, and it looks like Hakko makes a 230v version. I found a UK > > retailer that lists it: > > > > http://www.dancap.co.uk/soldering/fx888D.html > > > > > > > Thanks. I did do a search, but obviously not that well :-( Proto-PIC have them too: http://proto-pic.co.uk/hakko-fx-888d-silver-digital-solder-station/ http://proto-pic.co.uk/hakko-fx888d-blue-yellow-digital-solder-station/ Mind that ?99 is the net price. :( Maciej From salgernon at me.com Mon Aug 3 11:49:43 2015 From: salgernon at me.com (Steve Algernon) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 09:49:43 -0700 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <20150803134132.GK12471@n0jcf.net> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <20150803062145.GA25852@Update.UU.SE> <20150803134132.GK12471@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <465201CF-D38D-4779-8E3D-618A7F96C171@me.com> As an employee with some involvement, there was a batch of original iPads that were engraved with Steve Jobs signature. Scott Forstall joked "I don't want to see these show up on eBay!" Anyway, being none too careful, I let my then 3 year old play with it, and she was walking around with rapt attention to whatever cartwheeling clown was on it, when she dropped it on some bricks. The iPad's back was dented (not near the signature), and while it still worked, wouldn't take a charge. Failure Analysis said they didn't want to take it since it was one the "special' ones... So I opened it up (easier then then now; just wedge the screen out and break some metal retaining clips) and found that the dent, while small, was sharp and deep and pressed on the charging circuit. I wanted to insulate it, so I put a picture of my daughter there and sealed it up. Still works to this day and is great for netflix. But when it does eventually wind up with some collector down the line, I hope they'll be surprised and a little confused. Its always nice to make someones life a little more surreal. Cheers, --sma From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Aug 3 12:50:02 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 13:50:02 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs engraved iPads - Re: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <465201CF-D38D-4779-8E3D-618A7F96C171@me.com> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <20150803062145.GA25852@Update.UU.SE> <20150803134132.GK12471@n0jcf.net> <465201CF-D38D-4779-8E3D-618A7F96C171@me.com> Message-ID: <55BFA9CA.9030205@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-08-03 12:49 PM, Steve Algernon wrote: > As an employee with some involvement, there was a batch of original > iPads that were engraved with Steve Jobs signature. ... > But when it does eventually wind up with some collector down the > line, I hope they'll be surprised and a little confused. Its always > nice to make someones life a little more surreal. Great story! I hope this list archive survives until that happens & somebody completes the circle... --Toby > > Cheers, > --sma > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 13:11:06 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 13:11:06 -0500 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55BFAEBA.1040807@gmail.com> On 08/02/2015 01:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Turning this discussion on its head, I wonder if I'm the only one to stash > manuals and setup CDs in the cases of my systems. Has anyone ever picked > up an old system and found system documentation inside? I suppose that bad sector maps for ST506/412 hard drives don't count? :-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 3 13:33:31 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 12:33:31 -0600 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <55BFAEBA.1040807@gmail.com> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <55BFAEBA.1040807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55BFB3FB.6030601@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/3/2015 12:11 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 08/02/2015 01:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Turning this discussion on its head, I wonder if I'm the only one to >> stash >> manuals and setup CDs in the cases of my systems. Has anyone ever picked >> up an old system and found system documentation inside? > > I suppose that bad sector maps for ST506/412 hard drives don't count? :-) If is that bad, time for a new drive. Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 3 14:33:33 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 12:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <55BFB3FB.6030601@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <55BFAEBA.1040807@gmail.com> <55BFB3FB.6030601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >> I suppose that bad sector maps for ST506/412 hard drives don't count? :-) On Mon, 3 Aug 2015, ben wrote: > If is that bad, time for a new drive. In the early days, particularly when actual ST506 and ST412 were common drives, there were VERY VERY few that had no bad tracks. In the days of ST506/412 drives every responsible manufacturer included a list of bad tracks. In the early days, there were plenty. That was one of several reasons why reputable hard drive manufacturers rounded the capacity down, rather than peddling them with the size stated to half a dozen "significant" digits. Would you rather have a "10 Meg" drive that formatted out to 10.1Mebibytes, or one that formatted to 10.1Mebibytes that was sold as being "10.653696 Meg" ("WOW! This drive is so good that it gave me MORE capacity than it was rated for!") For a brief while, Spinrite defaulted to retoring to service any BAD TRACKS that passed Spinrite's tests! That was based on the assumption that a simple read/write test is surely far more trustworthy than the special hardware and software that the manufacturer used to decide to tell you not to trust that track. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From db at db.net Mon Aug 3 14:57:11 2015 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 15:57:11 -0400 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <55BFAEBA.1040807@gmail.com> <55BFB3FB.6030601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20150803195711.GA11107@night.db.net> On Mon, Aug 03, 2015 at 12:33:33PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> I suppose that bad sector maps for ST506/412 hard drives don't count? :-) Once upon a time, it was the job of the OS to take this badblock count and remap blocks itself since the drives themselves weren't smart enough. > > On Mon, 3 Aug 2015, ben wrote: > > If is that bad, time for a new drive. > In the early days, particularly when actual ST506 and ST412 were common > drives, there were VERY VERY few that had no bad tracks. > > In the days of ST506/412 drives every responsible manufacturer included a > list of bad tracks. In the early days, there were plenty. That was one > of several reasons why reputable hard drive manufacturers rounded the > capacity down, rather than peddling them with the size stated to half a > dozen "significant" digits. Would you rather have a "10 Meg" drive that > formatted out to 10.1Mebibytes, or one that formatted to 10.1Mebibytes > that was sold as being "10.653696 Meg" ("WOW! This drive is so good that > it gave me MORE capacity than it was rated for!") > > > For a brief while, Spinrite defaulted to retoring to service any BAD > TRACKS that passed Spinrite's tests! That was based on the assumption > that a simple read/write test is surely far more trustworthy than the > special hardware and software that the manufacturer used to decide to > tell you not to trust that track. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 3 15:27:56 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 15:27:56 -0500 Subject: paging mouse (rodents/montreal) Message-ID: <002a01d0ce2a$e2625db0$a7271910$@classiccmp.org> Sorry for the public post, can't get through privately. But oddly, the list seems to make it through. Very strange. Mouse, tried sending you a few replies, but your mail server sends rejections back from your MX host. Any chance you could whitelist the classiccmp.org server IP? Best, J From scaron at umich.edu Mon Aug 3 10:35:23 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 11:35:23 -0400 Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <78C62B55-8BCD-4897-AD4A-453E4E1B1CDD@platinum.net> <043401d0cca8$d6abcde0$840369a0$@ntlworld.com> <1D9C0A4A-C243-4A6E-A27D-F03D3E6A428A@platinum.net> <043601d0ccad$8b1d34e0$a1579ea0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: When it comes to soldering, I usually recommend Hakko or Pace irons; I have a Hakko 936 and it's a great "all-rounder". The FX-888D seems to be their recommended replacement for the 936 so I guess I will endorse that, if they are making the new models as well as they built the old ones (although IMO they look a little silly now) ... I paid less than $100 USD for my 936 brand new and I think I just got it from some random eBay vendor, maybe you can find them there, even in the Commonwealth? Best, Sean On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > On Sat, 1 Aug 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > > Thanks for the suggestion, but Hakko appears not to be available in > the UK. > > > On ebay I can find US sellers and Chinese sellers. I suspect the > Chinese ones are > > > imitations, so I would prefer to avoid those. > > > > > > Sorry - missed the UK part :) > > > > > > Did some googling, and it looks like Hakko makes a 230v version. I > found a UK > > > retailer that lists it: > > > > > > http://www.dancap.co.uk/soldering/fx888D.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. I did do a search, but obviously not that well :-( > > Proto-PIC have them too: > > http://proto-pic.co.uk/hakko-fx-888d-silver-digital-solder-station/ > http://proto-pic.co.uk/hakko-fx888d-blue-yellow-digital-solder-station/ > > Mind that ?99 is the net price. :( > > Maciej > From auringer at tds.net Mon Aug 3 11:13:38 2015 From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 11:13:38 -0500 Subject: Printer manuals that must go! Message-ID: <55BF9332.4040507@tds.net> Good morning all! I have the following printer manuals that I must get out of my space. If you want any of them enough to make it worth my while to ship them, let me know soon. They will be out of here by next Monday, one way or another. Shipping from Madison, WI 53714. Comrex ComRiterIIE User's Guide Gemini-10X/15X Users Manual Citizen MSP-40/45 User's Manual Wespergroup Model DLP-1132 Printer Controller User's Manual digital Letterwriter 100 Operator Guide Dataproducts Model 9030/9040 Printers Operating Guide Fujitsu M304X Series Line Printer Operator's Guide HP 7580B, 7585B, and 7586B Drafting Plotters Interfacing and Programming Manual HP 7580B, 7585B, and 7586B Drafting Plotters Interfacing and Operator's Manual Mannesmann Tally Spirit-80 Computer Printer Operator's manual Star Micronics radix-10 PC radix-15 PC User's Manual Panasonic KX-P3151 Daisy Wheel Printer Operating Instructions -Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 3 15:40:41 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 13:40:41 -0700 Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings In-Reply-To: <557854F8.8020402@pico-systems.com> References: <066901d0a351$a5115780$ef340680$@gmail.com> <5577F7B2.3050200@update.uu.se> <557854F8.8020402@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55BFD1C9.2050803@bitsavers.org> On 6/10/15 8:17 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > > I got a Pertec key to tape system surplus, and created a mostly software interface with very minimal hardware to read and write tapes on my S-100 Z-80 system. XL-40? Someone out here put some XL-40 parts and docs up on eBay this weekend, so I went over and got the docs from him and one board set. This was sold by Univac as the 1900/10 From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 3 15:43:23 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 13:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: This Hobby Is Actually Useful! In-Reply-To: References: <042601d0cca0$68c06fa0$3a414ee0$@ntlworld.com> <78C62B55-8BCD-4897-AD4A-453E4E1B1CDD@platinum.net> <043401d0cca8$d6abcde0$840369a0$@ntlworld.com> <1D9C0A4A-C243-4A6E-A27D-F03D3E6A428A@platinum.net> <043601d0ccad$8b1d34e0$a1579ea0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Aug 2015, Sean Caron wrote: > When it comes to soldering, I usually recommend Hakko or Pace irons; I have > a Hakko 936 and it's a great "all-rounder". The FX-888D seems to be their > recommended replacement for the 936 so I guess I will endorse that, if they > are making the new models as well as they built the old ones (although IMO > they look a little silly now) ... I paid less than $100 USD for my 936 > brand new and I think I just got it from some random eBay vendor, maybe you > can find them there, even in the Commonwealth? > I have both the FX-888 and FX-888D. They're VERY nice irons. The tips are the same as those used with the 936. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From other at oryx.us Mon Aug 3 16:11:43 2015 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 16:11:43 -0500 Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55BFD90F.4050102@oryx.us> To the OP. From the OK OBP prompt, can you please share the output of: probe-scsi AND probe-scsi-all assuming your OBP supports those commands. Jerry On 08/ 2/15 04:35 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Oh! And if you're using the "boot cdrom" mnemonic, make sure that your > CD-ROM is actually set to SCSI ID 6, otherwise you need to substitute in > your boot path i.e. > > /iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd@{scsiid},0 > > Definitely check that! > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Michael Thompson < > michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > >>> From: Benjamin Huntsman >>> Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom >>> >>> Hi all! >>> I recently acquired a SPARCclassic, which is my first bit of Sun >>> hardware. Having an awful time getting it to boot from the CD-ROM. I >> have >>> tried a bunch of different terminators and several different cables, but >>> whenever I try to boot I get this: >>> >>> ok boot cdrom -s >>> Boot device: /iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd at 6,0:d File >>> and args: -s >>> The SCSI bus is hung. Perhaps an external device is turned off. >>> >>> Any ideas as to what might be wrong here? The thing does not seem to >>> send any commands to the CD-ROM, as the LED never comes on and I don't >> hear >>> it doing anything... >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> -Ben >>> >> >> The terminator on the end of the SCSI bus needs to be powered. Without >> power on the terminator the bus will hang. Sometimes the power comes from >> the SPARC through the SCSI cable, but not all SCSI cables pass the power. >> Sometimes there is a jumper or switch on the last drive to enable SCSI >> terminator power. >> >> -- >> Michael Thompson >> From other at oryx.us Mon Aug 3 16:11:43 2015 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 16:11:43 -0500 Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55BFD90F.4050102@oryx.us> To the OP. From the OK OBP prompt, can you please share the output of: probe-scsi AND probe-scsi-all assuming your OBP supports those commands. Jerry On 08/ 2/15 04:35 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Oh! And if you're using the "boot cdrom" mnemonic, make sure that your > CD-ROM is actually set to SCSI ID 6, otherwise you need to substitute in > your boot path i.e. > > /iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd@{scsiid},0 > > Definitely check that! > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Michael Thompson < > michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > >>> From: Benjamin Huntsman >>> Subject: SPARCClassic won't boot cdrom >>> >>> Hi all! >>> I recently acquired a SPARCclassic, which is my first bit of Sun >>> hardware. Having an awful time getting it to boot from the CD-ROM. I >> have >>> tried a bunch of different terminators and several different cables, but >>> whenever I try to boot I get this: >>> >>> ok boot cdrom -s >>> Boot device: /iommu/sbus/espdma at 4,8400000/esp at 4,8800000/sd at 6,0:d File >>> and args: -s >>> The SCSI bus is hung. Perhaps an external device is turned off. >>> >>> Any ideas as to what might be wrong here? The thing does not seem to >>> send any commands to the CD-ROM, as the LED never comes on and I don't >> hear >>> it doing anything... >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> -Ben >>> >> >> The terminator on the end of the SCSI bus needs to be powered. Without >> power on the terminator the bus will hang. Sometimes the power comes from >> the SPARC through the SCSI cable, but not all SCSI cables pass the power. >> Sometimes there is a jumper or switch on the last drive to enable SCSI >> terminator power. >> >> -- >> Michael Thompson >> From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 3 16:25:37 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 14:25:37 -0700 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <55BFB3FB.6030601@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <55BFAEBA.1040807@gmail.com> <55BFB3FB.6030601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <55BFDC51.2080103@sydex.com> On 08/03/2015 11:33 AM, ben wrote: > If is that bad, time for a new drive. Perhaps you don't remember but old ST506-style drives had no automatic bad sector remapping, so even new ones had "bad sector" maps affixed by the manufacturer. Most often these were in the form of "byte offset from index". --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 3 16:51:13 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 15:51:13 -0600 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <55BFDC51.2080103@sydex.com> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <55BFAEBA.1040807@gmail.com> <55BFB3FB.6030601@jetnet.ab.ca> <55BFDC51.2080103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55BFE251.1070301@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/3/2015 3:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/03/2015 11:33 AM, ben wrote: > >> If is that bad, time for a new drive. > > > Perhaps you don't remember but old ST506-style drives had no automatic > bad sector remapping, so even new ones had "bad sector" maps affixed by > the manufacturer. Most often these were in the form of "byte offset > from index". Written on the drive, is a lot different than paper floating around inside > --Chuck I think soon we need to look for real cpu chips, everything will be microsoft hardware. Ben. From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Aug 3 17:09:40 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 15:09:40 -0700 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <55BFE251.1070301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <55BFAEBA.1040807@gmail.com> <55BFB3FB.6030601@jetnet.ab.ca> <55BFDC51.2080103@sydex.com> <55BFE251.1070301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2CCB822F-23EF-4292-BD3A-B591B056C937@nf6x.net> > On Aug 3, 2015, at 14:51 , ben wrote: > > > Written on the drive, is a lot different than paper floating around inside The bad blocks were "written on the drive" in the sense that they were written or printed on a paper label stuck to the top of the drive, not stored digitally on the drive platter(s). I may be mistaken, but I have a memory rattling around in my head of the bad block list even being printed on greenbar paper at final test, which was then cut with scissors and Scotch taped to the top of the drive. So, they were very literally "written on the drive" in layman's terms. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 3 17:12:43 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 15:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <2CCB822F-23EF-4292-BD3A-B591B056C937@nf6x.net> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <55BFAEBA.1040807@gmail.com> <55BFB3FB.6030601@jetnet.ab.ca> <55BFDC51.2080103@sydex.com> <55BFE251.1070301@jetnet.ab.ca> <2CCB822F-23EF-4292-BD3A-B591B056C937@nf6x.net> Message-ID: >> On Aug 3, 2015, at 14:51 , ben wrote: >> Written on the drive, is a lot different than paper floating around inside On Mon, 3 Aug 2015, Mark J. Blair wrote: > The bad blocks were "written on the drive" in the sense that they were > written or printed on a paper label stuck to the top of the drive, not > stored digitally on the drive platter(s). I may be mistaken, but I have > a memory rattling around in my head of the bad block list even being > printed on greenbar paper at final test, which was then cut with > scissors and Scotch taped to the top of the drive. So, they were very > literally "written on the drive" in layman's terms. Some were written on paper and taped to the drive. Before long, MOST manufacturers went to writing them on a lable stuck to the drive. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 17:17:15 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 17:17:15 -0500 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: <48AEABB7-0400-45D3-9997-FF02CDCFB348@nf6x.net> <1C9388C2-13B6-4556-91B7-115F8BDC7420@nf6x.net> Message-ID: When I was a toddler apparently I used to stuff penny's inside the floppy drives of my dads rainbow 100 the drives survived this I slot and are still I. Working order as far as I know since last time I saw that beast On Sunday, August 2, 2015, Tom Moss wrote: > I once found a whole box worth of crayola crayons in a 1541 disk drive. > > What amazes me is how nothing was blocked and they hadn't melted. > > On 2 August 2015 at 05:53, Mark J. Blair > > wrote: > > > By the way: I still keep the dollar with the computer. Just in case it's > a > > critical component, you know. :) > > > > > > -- > > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > > > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > > > > From ben at bensinclair.com Mon Aug 3 17:38:44 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 17:38:44 -0500 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: <48AEABB7-0400-45D3-9997-FF02CDCFB348@nf6x.net> <1C9388C2-13B6-4556-91B7-115F8BDC7420@nf6x.net> Message-ID: This one isn't so pleasant... I worked at CompUSA fixing computers in the 90's, and one time an employee brought in his personal machine for repair. Fortunately I wasn't the one that opened it up, as when the tech popped the case, cockroaches scurried everywhere! The machine was beyond hope with the amount of "insect debris" inside. I believe we had an exterminator out the next day! On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > When I was a toddler apparently I used to stuff penny's inside the floppy > drives of my dads rainbow 100 the drives survived this I slot and are still > I. Working order as far as I know since last time I saw that beast > > On Sunday, August 2, 2015, Tom Moss wrote: > >> I once found a whole box worth of crayola crayons in a 1541 disk drive. >> >> What amazes me is how nothing was blocked and they hadn't melted. >> >> On 2 August 2015 at 05:53, Mark J. Blair > >> wrote: >> >> > By the way: I still keep the dollar with the computer. Just in case it's >> a >> > critical component, you know. :) >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > >> > http://www.nf6x.net/ >> > >> > >> -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Aug 3 20:41:33 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 20:41:33 -0500 Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings In-Reply-To: <55BFD1C9.2050803@bitsavers.org> References: <066901d0a351$a5115780$ef340680$@gmail.com> <5577F7B2.3050200@update.uu.se> <557854F8.8020402@pico-systems.com> <55BFD1C9.2050803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55C0184D.20809@pico-systems.com> On 08/03/2015 03:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 6/10/15 8:17 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >> > >> I got a Pertec key to tape system surplus, and created a >> mostly software interface with very minimal hardware to >> read and write tapes on my S-100 Z-80 system. > > XL-40? > The system I had was, I'm pretty sure, made by Pertec. I still have the manuals for it, and curiously they don't list ANY manufacturer in the title block. It was a really small thing, about 19 inches wide and 12 inches tall, with a fairly stock spring-arm 9 track drive with 7" tape reels. I couldn't find the listing on eBay. Jon From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 20:52:00 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 20:52:00 -0500 Subject: Steve Jobs engraved iPads - Re: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <55BFA9CA.9030205@telegraphics.com.au> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <20150803062145.GA25852@Update.UU.SE> <20150803134132.GK12471@n0jcf.net> <465201CF-D38D-4779-8E3D-618A7F96C171@me.com> <55BFA9CA.9030205@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Where is the inscription? Inside the case? On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2015-08-03 12:49 PM, Steve Algernon wrote: > >> As an employee with some involvement, there was a batch of original >> iPads that were engraved with Steve Jobs signature. ... >> But when it does eventually wind up with some collector down the >> line, I hope they'll be surprised and a little confused. Its always >> nice to make someones life a little more surreal. >> > > Great story! I hope this list archive survives until that happens & > somebody completes the circle... > > --Toby > > > >> Cheers, >> --sma >> >> >> > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Aug 3 21:04:57 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 22:04:57 -0400 Subject: Bad block list printouts with drives - was Re: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <2CCB822F-23EF-4292-BD3A-B591B056C937@nf6x.net> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <55BFAEBA.1040807@gmail.com> <55BFB3FB.6030601@jetnet.ab.ca> <55BFDC51.2080103@sydex.com> <55BFE251.1070301@jetnet.ab.ca> <2CCB822F-23EF-4292-BD3A-B591B056C937@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <55C01DC9.1000208@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-08-03 6:09 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> On Aug 3, 2015, at 14:51 , ben wrote: >> >> >> Written on the drive, is a lot different than paper floating around inside > > The bad blocks were "written on the drive" in the sense that they > were written or printed on a paper label stuck to the top of the drive, not stored digitally on the drive platter(s). I may be mistaken, but I have a memory rattling around in my head of the bad block list even being printed on greenbar paper at final test, which was then cut with scissors and Scotch taped to the top of the drive. So, they were very literally "written on the drive" in layman's terms. > Some of my drives have paper printouts of bad blocks that are folded and fit into a plastic sleeve that's attached to the drive. Don't have access to brands/models right now, sorry. These would be the larger, full height, 80s vintage drives; possibly early SCSI and possibly accompanying Sun 3 gear. --Toby From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 3 21:06:12 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 19:06:12 -0700 Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings In-Reply-To: <55C0184D.20809@pico-systems.com> References: <066901d0a351$a5115780$ef340680$@gmail.com> <5577F7B2.3050200@update.uu.se> <557854F8.8020402@pico-systems.com> <55BFD1C9.2050803@bitsavers.org> <55C0184D.20809@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55C01E14.2070002@bitsavers.org> On 8/3/15 6:41 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 08/03/2015 03:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 6/10/15 8:17 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >>> >> >>> I got a Pertec key to tape system surplus, and created a mostly software interface with very minimal hardware to read and write tapes on my S-100 Z-80 system. >> >> XL-40? >> > The system I had was, I'm pretty sure, made by Pertec. I still have the manuals for it, and curiously they don't list ANY manufacturer in the title block. It was a really small thing, about 19 > inches wide and 12 inches tall, with a fairly stock spring-arm 9 track drive with 7" tape reels. > > I couldn't find the listing on eBay. > > Jon > > do you have anything on the instruction set? here is the auction for the manuals http://www.ebay.com/itm/321821273842 If you look in his completed auctions, the boards are there. I doubt anyone bought them. He still has two Fuji 2322s and an NEC SMD drive listed that I'm guessing came out them and he has a Pertec 8640, but I doubt he's going to bother to list it. I also rescued a XL40 diag tape. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 21:28:13 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 21:28:13 -0500 Subject: Bad block list printouts with drives - was Re: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: <55C01DC9.1000208@telegraphics.com.au> References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <55BFAEBA.1040807@gmail.com> <55BFB3FB.6030601@jetnet.ab.ca> <55BFDC51.2080103@sydex.com> <55BFE251.1070301@jetnet.ab.ca> <2CCB822F-23EF-4292-BD3A-B591B056C937@nf6x.net> <55C01DC9.1000208@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <55C0233D.6040706@gmail.com> On 08/03/2015 09:04 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Some of my drives have paper printouts of bad blocks that are folded and > fit into a plastic sleeve that's attached to the drive. > > Don't have access to brands/models right now, sorry. These would be the > larger, full height, 80s vintage drives; possibly early SCSI and possibly > accompanying Sun 3 gear. I've certainly seen that on Imprimis drives before. On one of my machines (Kaypro PC, I think) the printout is folded and tucked between the drive and the chassis, rather than being on the drive itself. My recollection is that there's more to it than a simple bad block list - i.e. it's the test summary from soak-testing the drive (possibly by the system rather than drive manufacturer). cheers Jules From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Aug 3 22:48:34 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 22:48:34 -0500 Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings In-Reply-To: <55C01E14.2070002@bitsavers.org> References: <066901d0a351$a5115780$ef340680$@gmail.com> <5577F7B2.3050200@update.uu.se> <557854F8.8020402@pico-systems.com> <55BFD1C9.2050803@bitsavers.org> <55C0184D.20809@pico-systems.com> <55C01E14.2070002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55C03612.6020303@pico-systems.com> On 08/03/2015 09:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > do you have anything on the instruction set? > Instruction set? This was not a computer. It was an all hard-wired-logic key to tape system. It could be set to enter data to tape, verify data by retyping it, and it would beep if a record did not match, or allow you to view the tape contents on a panel of lights, one bulb per EBCDIC character. The thing had a core memory buffer to hold one 80-character record, only keeping 6 bits per character. I ripped out all the key to tape logic, fortunately, it was designed with a mag tape sort of interface at a particular card slot, so I left the 3 boards or so that managed the tape drive, and then supplied the rest of the interface with a few one-shots and some 8-bit wide registers, and a bunch of timing loops. I used this mostly to back up my S-100 hard drive. OK, I verified it was indeed made by Pertec. The title block of the drawings doesn't have anything real obvious, but there is a bunch of legal boilerplate advising the restrictions on use of the drawings, and the last words are "prior written permission of Pertec". Jon From salgernon at me.com Mon Aug 3 23:17:24 2015 From: salgernon at me.com (Steve Algernon) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 21:17:24 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs engraved iPads - Re: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: <001d01d0cd52$b5d54d0d$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <55BE678E.5000400@sydex.com> <20150803062145.GA25852@Update.UU.SE> <20150803134132.GK12471@n0jcf.net> <465201CF-D38D-4779-8E3D-618A7F96C171@me.com> <55BFA9CA.9030205@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <3AD8356E-2653-4B32-AF80-48AF78725127@me.com> > On Aug 3, 2015, at 6:52 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > Where is the inscription? Inside the case? > On the back. I don't have a handy picture, but someone else posted theirs: http://deirdre.net/steve-jobss-death-and-influence/back-camera-3/ From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 23:53:09 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 22:53:09 -0600 Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings In-Reply-To: <55785C29.6050406@bitsavers.org> References: <38BD1731-9957-4E7E-843E-9AE77D17E266@nf6x.net> <55782829.1090909@wulfman.com> <38D7A35C-F482-48F5-B2D6-281A6F0822C8@nf6x.net> <20150610150528.5E139A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20150610154007.C4805A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <55785C29.6050406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I need to figure out why this program also doesn't deal with tape errors > well. > If you get an error, it will go into an endless loop creating -1 byte > records. I haven't looked at that in many years, so I'm not sure. Maybe when you get a read error you have to issue a skip forward before you can read the next block? From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 23:54:17 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 22:54:17 -0600 Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings In-Reply-To: <20150610154007.C4805A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <55782829.1090909@wulfman.com> <38D7A35C-F482-48F5-B2D6-281A6F0822C8@nf6x.net> <20150610150528.5E139A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <38BD1731-9957-4E7E-843E-9AE77D17E266@nf6x.net> <20150610154007.C4805A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Dennis Boone wrote: > The main limitation seems to be that it's hard to get the (broken) data > from a block that had a read error when using SCSI hardware. There's > probably a way around this if one digs into lower layers of SCSI magic; > I haven't gone looking. Nothing using standard SCSI commands, unfortunately. Might be some vendor-unique stuff. From scaron at umich.edu Mon Aug 3 17:36:09 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 18:36:09 -0400 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: <48AEABB7-0400-45D3-9997-FF02CDCFB348@nf6x.net> <1C9388C2-13B6-4556-91B7-115F8BDC7420@nf6x.net> Message-ID: When I was in middle school, I once saw another kid stuff a bunch of potato chips in a Disk ][ ... does that count? LOL Best, Sean On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > When I was a toddler apparently I used to stuff penny's inside the floppy > drives of my dads rainbow 100 the drives survived this I slot and are still > I. Working order as far as I know since last time I saw that beast > > On Sunday, August 2, 2015, Tom Moss wrote: > > > I once found a whole box worth of crayola crayons in a 1541 disk drive. > > > > What amazes me is how nothing was blocked and they hadn't melted. > > > > On 2 August 2015 at 05:53, Mark J. Blair > > > wrote: > > > > > By the way: I still keep the dollar with the computer. Just in case > it's > > a > > > critical component, you know. :) > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > > > > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > > > > > > > > From scaron at umich.edu Mon Aug 3 17:55:57 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 18:55:57 -0400 Subject: Unusual stuff inside computers In-Reply-To: References: <48AEABB7-0400-45D3-9997-FF02CDCFB348@nf6x.net> <1C9388C2-13B6-4556-91B7-115F8BDC7420@nf6x.net> Message-ID: Man that is foul ... I too started in the business doing repair, at a local shop, and we definitely saw some dirty ones, but never like that! The grossest stuff was always out in the field particularly some of the industrial customers. Best, Sean On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 6:38 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > This one isn't so pleasant... I worked at CompUSA fixing computers in > the 90's, and one time an employee brought in his personal machine for > repair. Fortunately I wasn't the one that opened it up, as when the > tech popped the case, cockroaches scurried everywhere! The machine was > beyond hope with the amount of "insect debris" inside. > > I believe we had an exterminator out the next day! > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Adrian Stoness > wrote: > > When I was a toddler apparently I used to stuff penny's inside the floppy > > drives of my dads rainbow 100 the drives survived this I slot and are > still > > I. Working order as far as I know since last time I saw that beast > > > > On Sunday, August 2, 2015, Tom Moss wrote: > > > >> I once found a whole box worth of crayola crayons in a 1541 disk drive. > >> > >> What amazes me is how nothing was blocked and they hadn't melted. > >> > >> On 2 August 2015 at 05:53, Mark J. Blair > > >> wrote: > >> > >> > By the way: I still keep the dollar with the computer. Just in case > it's > >> a > >> > critical component, you know. :) > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > > >> > http://www.nf6x.net/ > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 4 01:00:51 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 23:00:51 -0700 Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings In-Reply-To: References: <55782829.1090909@wulfman.com> <38D7A35C-F482-48F5-B2D6-281A6F0822C8@nf6x.net> <20150610150528.5E139A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <38BD1731-9957-4E7E-843E-9AE77D17E266@nf6x.net> <20150610154007.C4805A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <55C05513.5070300@sydex.com> On 08/03/2015 09:54 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> The main limitation seems to be that it's hard to get the (broken) >> data from a block that had a read error when using SCSI hardware. >> There's probably a way around this if one digs into lower layers of >> SCSI magic; I haven't gone looking. > > Nothing using standard SCSI commands, unfortunately. Might be some > vendor-unique stuff. I find that Linux/BSD SCSI tape handling gets really strange when errors occur. If you're willing to run MSDOS with an appropriate ASPI driver, I can send you a utility that I know works--if an error occurs, the bad block is padded out to the same length as the preceding one, so the overall structure is less likely to be disturbed. One of these days, I'll port the SCSI interface of the program to sg(), but not right away--too many other irons in the fire. But you're welcome to the source code. One of the things that I don't like about SCSI tapes is precisely the error handling--very often, you get no data returned, where a native Pertec interface might have given you something. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Aug 4 11:25:56 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 12:25:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unidentified chip Message-ID: <20150804162556.4AEA618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, I took Tony's advice (about parts) to heart, and have been stocking up on all sorts of things. (Ironically, I now have a _far_ better supply of parts that I had access to, back in the day, at LCS at MIT! But that's a rant for another day.) As part of that, I've bought up a number of IC collections, to build up a stock of 74xxx parts in various families (S, LS, etc). Along with them, I have acquired a lot of stuff I don't need (e.g. CMOS parts), and at some point I'll offer them here, for trade, for people who do have a use for them. (The PDP-11 systems I'm interested in basically don't use them.) As I've finished sorting and filing all that stuff, I'm left with a few things I can't ID. The most prolific one (I think I have about 6 tubes full :-) is something I'd appreciate a hand with: it might be some super-rare chip that people would love to find, or something. It's a 16-pin DIP, with the following on it (in three separate lines): "1028126", "D39315-A", and "CS9336P". The first number looks like the numbers I've seen on a couple of other un-identified chips, made by TRW. (I hope they aren't something classified I'm not even supposed to have! :-) Anyone have any idea what these things are? Thanks! Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 4 11:28:35 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2015 09:28:35 -0700 Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings In-Reply-To: <55C05513.5070300@sydex.com> References: <55782829.1090909@wulfman.com> <38D7A35C-F482-48F5-B2D6-281A6F0822C8@nf6x.net> <20150610150528.5E139A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <38BD1731-9957-4E7E-843E-9AE77D17E266@nf6x.net> <20150610154007.C4805A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <55C05513.5070300@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C0E833.40400@bitsavers.org> On 8/3/15 11:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One of these days, I'll port the SCSI interface of the program to sg(), but not right away--too many other irons in the fire. But you're welcome to the source code. > It would to be nice to look at. I was back at cartridge tape recovery this weekend so SCSI is the only method I have right now for reading carts. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 4 11:54:08 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2015 09:54:08 -0700 Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings In-Reply-To: <55C0E833.40400@bitsavers.org> References: <55782829.1090909@wulfman.com> <38D7A35C-F482-48F5-B2D6-281A6F0822C8@nf6x.net> <20150610150528.5E139A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <38BD1731-9957-4E7E-843E-9AE77D17E266@nf6x.net> <20150610154007.C4805A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <55C05513.5070300@sydex.com> <55C0E833.40400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55C0EE30.5070508@sydex.com> On 08/04/2015 09:28 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/3/15 11:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> One of these days, I'll port the SCSI interface of the program to >> sg(), but not right away--too many other irons in the fire. But >> you're welcome to the source code. >> > > It would to be nice to look at. I was back at cartridge tape recovery > this weekend so SCSI is the only method I have right now for reading > carts. I'll get something off to you ASAP, Al. BTW, what do you use to read UNIX v7 tar files? Linux/BSD modern tar seem not to like the old archive format--they use the posix version. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Aug 4 12:16:50 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 13:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings Message-ID: <20150804171650.2DA1B18C104@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > BTW, what do you use to read UNIX v7 tar files? Linux/BSD modern tar > seem not to like the old archive format I have a very slightly hacked version of the V7 tar, which runs under Windows (under Cygwin). It read all the older TAR files which the newer TARs barfed on. Is that of any use to you? Noel From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 4 12:21:19 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2015 10:21:19 -0700 Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings In-Reply-To: <55C0EE30.5070508@sydex.com> References: <55782829.1090909@wulfman.com> <38D7A35C-F482-48F5-B2D6-281A6F0822C8@nf6x.net> <20150610150528.5E139A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <38BD1731-9957-4E7E-843E-9AE77D17E266@nf6x.net> <20150610154007.C4805A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <55C05513.5070300@sydex.com> <55C0E833.40400@bitsavers.org> <55C0EE30.5070508@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C0F48F.3040904@sydex.com> On 08/04/2015 09:54 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > BTW, what do you use to read UNIX v7 tar files? Linux/BSD modern tar > seem not to like the old archive format--they use the posix > version. Scratch that--it helps if what you're working with is actually a .tar file. Nevermind. It's not even 10:30AM and it's already been a long day... --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 4 13:01:05 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 11:01:05 -0700 Subject: Unidentified chip In-Reply-To: <20150804162556.4AEA618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150804162556.4AEA618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > snip > > It's a 16-pin DIP, with the following on it (in three separate lines): > "1028126", "D39315-A", and "CS9336P". The first number looks like the numbers > I've seen on a couple of other un-identified chips, made by TRW. (I hope they > aren't something classified I'm not even supposed to have! :-) > > Anyone have any idea what these things are? > > Thanks! > > Noel Have you tried an ohm meter on them? They might be R-Packs. Dwight From jrr at flippers.com Tue Aug 4 13:40:54 2015 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 11:40:54 -0700 Subject: Unidentified chip In-Reply-To: <20150804162556.4AEA618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150804162556.4AEA618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55C10736.5090605@flippers.com> On 08/04/2015 9:25 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So, I took Tony's advice (about parts) to heart, and have been stocking up on > all sorts of things. (Ironically, I now have a _far_ better supply of parts > that I had access to, back in the day, at LCS at MIT! But that's a rant for > another day.) > > As part of that, I've bought up a number of IC collections, to build up a > stock of 74xxx parts in various families (S, LS, etc). Along with them, I have > acquired a lot of stuff I don't need (e.g. CMOS parts), and at some point I'll > offer them here, for trade, for people who do have a use for them. (The PDP-11 > systems I'm interested in basically don't use them.) > > As I've finished sorting and filing all that stuff, I'm left with a few things > I can't ID. The most prolific one (I think I have about 6 tubes full :-) is > something I'd appreciate a hand with: it might be some super-rare chip that > people would love to find, or something. > > It's a 16-pin DIP, with the following on it (in three separate lines): > "1028126", "D39315-A", and "CS9336P". The first number looks like the numbers > I've seen on a couple of other un-identified chips, made by TRW. (I hope they > aren't something classified I'm not even supposed to have! :-) > > Anyone have any idea what these things are? > > Thanks! > > Noel > You could always get one of those inexpensive TTL device identifiers to see if the house number crosses over: http://www.ebay.com/itm/281682288251 John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 4 13:55:46 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2015 11:55:46 -0700 Subject: Unidentified chip In-Reply-To: <55C10736.5090605@flippers.com> References: <20150804162556.4AEA618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55C10736.5090605@flippers.com> Message-ID: <55C10AB2.5010900@sydex.com> On 08/04/2015 11:40 AM, John Robertson wrote: > You could always get one of those inexpensive TTL device identifiers to > see if the house number crosses over: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/281682288251 My Xeltek programmer has that function--and it works for some common TTL ICs, but gets a lot less reliable with the complex function ones. I suspect that the eBay model is not much better. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 4 14:24:10 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 20:24:10 +0100 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: References: <03d401d0cc47$26aed240$740c76c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hello Adrian, Any news on whether I might be able to get my hands on the 2000 and 4000 VLC? Regards Rob On 1 August 2015 at 11:59, Adrian Graham wrote: > No probs Rob, I'll give it a couple of days and dig through my old messages > from Dec/Jan this year. The original takers might also have dropped off the > list in the same way I did. > > A > > > On 01/08/2015 11:45, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: > > > Always interested in a 2000 and a 4000. I suspect these were destined for > > other people, but if the takers have not materialised then I will happily > > take them. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > >> Graham > >> Sent: 01 August 2015 11:11 > >> To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Saved DEC kit > >> > >> Folks, > >> > >> Before the great company meltdown of Jan this year and as I discovered > the > >> great mailing list breakdown of not long after I saved some DEC kit for > > list > >> members to collect, namely: > >> > >> Alpha 800 (rackmount) > >> uVAX 2000 > >> VAX 4000VLC > >> > >> These are still in my hallway in Cambs UK so if either the people who > > called for > >> them or failing that anyone else would like to collect that'd be great. > >> > >> I have proper scales for shipping weight but they need to be calibrated > > and I'm > >> struggling to find anything that weighs exactly 25kg :) (I know the > > Alpha800 is > >> '24-28kg', scales are pretty correct there, as they are with my DS25, > but > > they > >> get a DS10 horribly wrong so...) > >> > >> -- > >> Adrian/Witchy > >> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > >> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > >> collection? > > > > > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 4 15:48:48 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 13:48:48 -0700 Subject: Unidentified chip In-Reply-To: <55C10AB2.5010900@sydex.com> References: <20150804162556.4AEA618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <55C10736.5090605@flippers.com>, <55C10AB2.5010900@sydex.com> Message-ID: This all assumes it is a TTL and not an ECL or even and analog chip, such as an opamp. Dwight From jrr at flippers.com Tue Aug 4 16:29:31 2015 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 14:29:31 -0700 Subject: Unidentified chip In-Reply-To: References: <20150804162556.4AEA618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55C10736.5090605@flippers.com> <55C10AB2.5010900@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C12EBB.1040100@flippers.com> On 08/04/2015 1:48 PM, dwight wrote: > This all assumes it is a TTL and not an ECL or even > and analog chip, such as an opamp. > Dwight > > It might be possible to identify it a bit. Using the Diode Test of your basic multi-meter you can probably figure out if there is a ground and Vcc pins by comparing the likely candidates (pin 8 for gnd, and 16 for Vcc) against other TTL based ICs. If they don't match then chack against pins 5 and 12 which are alternate G & Vcc pins on some TTL. If no joy matching to TTL, then make a log of the various pin voltages relative to other pins and see if there is a pattern that emerges. Compare to CMOS next, then drag out a 16 pin OP-Amp based IC and see if it shows anything similar. I find that inputs and outputs on TTL do show a difference in voltage drops relative to Vcc and G, and also which way you use the probes. I did a small write-up years ago as a starting point: http://www.flippers.com/service.html#diode John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 16:58:53 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2015 16:58:53 -0500 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com> On 08/01/2015 05:10 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > I'm struggling to find anything that weighs exactly 25kg :) 25 things that weigh 1kg, obviously. :-) From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Aug 4 17:06:02 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 22:06:02 +0000 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com> References: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3C7A1EE7-9FB8-41D4-A3E4-8E74658F0033@swri.edu> Hmm?. 55 pints? On Aug 4, 2015, at 4:58 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 08/01/2015 05:10 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> I'm struggling to find anything that weighs exactly 25kg :) > > 25 things that weigh 1kg, obviously. :-) > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 4 17:32:52 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 15:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com> References: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 08/01/2015 05:10 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > I'm struggling to find anything that weighs exactly 25kg :) 6.6[043] gallons of water a 25Kg bag of dogfood 1470 3.5" floppies From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Aug 4 19:46:55 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2015 19:46:55 -0500 Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings In-Reply-To: <55C03612.6020303@pico-systems.com> References: <066901d0a351$a5115780$ef340680$@gmail.com> <5577F7B2.3050200@update.uu.se> <557854F8.8020402@pico-systems.com> <55BFD1C9.2050803@bitsavers.org> <55C0184D.20809@pico-systems.com> <55C01E14.2070002@bitsavers.org> <55C03612.6020303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55C15CFF.5070007@pico-systems.com> On 08/03/2015 10:48 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > > OK, I verified it was indeed made by Pertec. The title > block of the drawings doesn't have anything real obvious, > but there is a bunch of legal boilerplate advising the > restrictions on use of the drawings, and the last words > are "prior written permission of Pertec". > Oh, one other tidbit from the schematics was the original pages were drawn in 1970, and some updates went out to 1972 or so. No idea how many of these horrors they made. Tape format was 800 BPI NRZI with 80-byte records with no format other than tape marks at the end. Jon From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 20:14:35 2015 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 21:14:35 -0400 Subject: AM Varityper (phototypesetter) In-Reply-To: <20150731220624.GA15925@lonesome.com> References: <55BAD73B.3070306@sydex.com> <20150731020756.GA14067@lonesome.com> <55BAEA90.8040607@sydex.com> <20150731220624.GA15925@lonesome.com> Message-ID: While we are talking about typesetters, I have one that I am willing to part with if someone can pick it up from Long Island, NY. It is a Tegra Genesis Laser Phototypesetter, circa 1990. Original cost at the time was north of $40K. It did 1000DPI pagess at 20 ppm. The print engine is a Varityper 2100 (serial FB00227). It is about 4'w x 2'd x 18"h (if fit exactly over two raised floor panels). The RIP was a large tower machine - Tegra Genesis (serial 141). It contains an NS 32016 running Coherent. The RIP emulates a Compugraphic 8600 typesetter. It has serial and Compugrapices parallel interfaces. I have all the manuals, cables and a bunch of software on diskettes. The RIP and all manuals an interface stuff has been in my (dry) basement since the late 90's. The setter has been in the garage. I know I will never get around to restoring it, so it is free to a good home. If you are seriously interested, respond off list. On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 08:25:04PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Basically, this thing, or a variation thereof: > > > > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/varityper > > This looks to be a later model than the one I used, which was definitely > an 8008 (I looked). > > The keyboard is different. When we scrapped that misbegotten thing, > I was awarded the keyboard. It's here ... somewhere. > > mcl > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Aug 4 20:14:39 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 13:14:39 +1200 Subject: Amstrad CPC 464 acquisition Message-ID: I got this model a few months ago and have written a few words about the process. For those interested... http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-08-03-acquiring-amstrads.htm Terry (Tez) From jws at jwsss.com Tue Aug 4 20:17:24 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 18:17:24 -0700 Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings In-Reply-To: References: <55782829.1090909@wulfman.com> <38D7A35C-F482-48F5-B2D6-281A6F0822C8@nf6x.net> <20150610150528.5E139A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <38BD1731-9957-4E7E-843E-9AE77D17E266@nf6x.net> <20150610154007.C4805A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <55C16424.2060102@jwsss.com> On 8/3/2015 9:54 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> The main limitation seems to be that it's hard to get the (broken) data >> from a block that had a read error when using SCSI hardware. There's >> probably a way around this if one digs into lower layers of SCSI magic; >> I haven't gone looking. > Nothing using standard SCSI commands, unfortunately. Might be some > vendor-unique stuff. > > I was on the SCSI committee when the tape commands were proposed. The original that was proposed was to only have a commands which would be on disk controllers (who were the main players) to perform backups of disk units and restores. Luckily that effort was headed off by having several parties who made tape devices other than Archive join the committee. Eventually a proposal was made for the capability to recover data when blocks on tape exceeded the size of the read request. I had to explain such things as read reverse, and how EOT processing was done on half inch as they all had defined things which made using such devices impossible. The defined command set was still not useful as pointed out by Eric in the area of errors. That tape marks were not records was also a huge debate, and as Chuck points out elsewhere it was not handled consistently either. I still am not happy that the quarter inch products turned out to be garbage and noone called them on it. Even 3m at the time eventually admitted that the physical design was flawed for the speeds that most drives ran the tape at, but never made clear to people how bad the design was. Only when you tried to restore data and it was crap did you become a member of the club that didn't use the QIC devices. Amazingly I've never had a 4mm or 8mm tape fail to read for media reasons. I'm going on having media from both that are as old as the technology. My 8mm backups have only one bad tape in the pile, and it was marked as written "incomplete" and bad at the time of creation. Half inch I've had the same problems documented with the quality of the media, but it is much older. thanks Jim From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 20:25:20 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 21:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tandy / Corvus Network Message-ID: I've been given a small board that I believe is a Corvus Omninet adapter for TRS-80 Mod 3 or 4. I _think_ it's intended to support a product called "Network 4" that appears on a few old Tandy price lists and ad brochures. I'd love to find out more about the environment it's intended for and, if possible, get my hands on the technical documentation and system software. Is this familiar to anyone on the list? Steve -- From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Aug 4 20:32:01 2015 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2015 21:32:01 -0400 Subject: Looking for AMI S4008 or MOSTEK MK4008 Message-ID: <1aae01d0cf1e$87147de0$953d79a0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Subject pretty much says it all, except that I need the ceramic package with the metal lid. Thanks, Bill S. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 4 21:20:56 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2015 19:20:56 -0700 Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings In-Reply-To: <55C16424.2060102@jwsss.com> References: <55782829.1090909@wulfman.com> <38D7A35C-F482-48F5-B2D6-281A6F0822C8@nf6x.net> <20150610150528.5E139A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <38BD1731-9957-4E7E-843E-9AE77D17E266@nf6x.net> <20150610154007.C4805A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <55C16424.2060102@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <55C17308.3080106@sydex.com> On 08/04/2015 06:17 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > I was on the SCSI committee when the tape commands were proposed. The > original that was proposed was to only have a commands which would be on > disk controllers (who were the main players) to perform backups of disk > units and restores. Luckily that effort was headed off by having > several parties who made tape devices other than Archive join the > committee. I know the feeling from my short time with X3J3 (Fortran (was supposed to be 88, but became 90)). The reps from DEC and IBM both threw a hissy fit and threatened to withdraw if the committee didn't ratify their particular extensions. It was not a nice experience. It's really odd that the raw Pertec-style interface, even with its various vendor extensions, is still more robust and versatile than the SCSI version. On the other hand, the SCSI standard (X3T10?) does a pretty good job of generalizing tape robots. > Amazingly I've never had a 4mm or 8mm tape fail to read for media > reasons. I'm going on having media from both that are as old as the > technology. My 8mm backups have only one bad tape in the pile, and it > was marked as written "incomplete" and bad at the time of creation. Half > inch I've had the same problems documented with the quality of the > media, but it is much older. Wasn't Exabyte the only vendor of 8mm tape backup? I've seen other brands but they all seemed to have Exabyte internals. 4mm DLT is/was remarkably robust, particularly when you consider the mechanical intricacies. I was really surprised to see the medium extended to DAT-320. Apparently, there's yet another generation in the works. On the other hand, the consumer-level tape backups are really terrible; Travan, DC-2100, etc. The worst of the bunch was the Datasonix Pereos that used a (wait for it!) 2mm tiny tape cartridge that one had to order from Datasonix via Fedex. Thankfully, that one was brief. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Aug 4 21:32:28 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2015 22:32:28 -0400 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: References: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55C175BC.7000800@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-08-04 6:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On 08/01/2015 05:10 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> I'm struggling to find anything that weighs exactly 25kg :) > > 6.6[043] gallons of water > a 25Kg bag of dogfood > 1470 3.5" floppies > > About a kajillion emails From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 4 21:50:44 2015 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 22:50:44 -0400 Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings In-Reply-To: <55C17308.3080106@sydex.com> References: <55782829.1090909@wulfman.com> <38D7A35C-F482-48F5-B2D6-281A6F0822C8@nf6x.net> <20150610150528.5E139A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <38BD1731-9957-4E7E-843E-9AE77D17E266@nf6x.net> <20150610154007.C4805A585A6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <55C16424.2060102@jwsss.com> <55C17308.3080106@sydex.com> Message-ID: AIT was 8mm using SONY drives and tapes (industrial use for 8mm camcorder media). -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 10:20 PM To: jwsmail at jwsss.com ; General at classiccmp.org ; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings Wasn't Exabyte the only vendor of 8mm tape backup? --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Aug 4 22:13:06 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 20:13:06 -0700 Subject: Looking for AMI S4008 or MOSTEK MK4008 In-Reply-To: <1aae01d0cf1e$87147de0$953d79a0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <1aae01d0cf1e$87147de0$953d79a0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7F1CC3A3-1B56-441C-A5EE-82FAC4FF3D9F@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Aug-04, at 6:32 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Subject pretty much says it all, except that I need the > ceramic package with the metal lid. Not that it's a help, but I have a Wang calculator that uses an array of MK4008's. Ceramic & lidded but the gold-plated pins rotted on one or two of them - recovered by soldering new pins onto the side. Could do with spares but they're not common. Would your interest in the specific form be for image sensor experiments? From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com Tue Aug 4 22:45:40 2015 From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 13:45:40 +1000 Subject: Looking for AMI S4008 or MOSTEK MK4008 In-Reply-To: <55c167ae.e9826b0a.9c63a.ffffa88aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <55c167ae.e9826b0a.9c63a.ffffa88aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Subject pretty much says it all, except that I need the > ceramic package with the metal lid. Like this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/MK4008P-2-MOSTEK-16-Pin-GOLD-PURPLE-DIP-Vintage-MK4008-/390115835505 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 4 23:52:56 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 04:52:56 +0000 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: <3C7A1EE7-9FB8-41D4-A3E4-8E74658F0033@swri.edu> References: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com>,<3C7A1EE7-9FB8-41D4-A3E4-8E74658F0033@swri.edu> Message-ID: [25kg] > Hmm?. 55 pints? Not over here.... -tony From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Aug 5 00:53:51 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 07:53:51 +0200 Subject: Was there 3rd party DEC PRO CTI boards? Message-ID: <20150805055351.GC7307@Update.UU.SE> Hi Out of curiousity, since I now have a DEC PRO380. Was there any third party manufacturer of CTI expansion boards? Regards, Pontus. From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Aug 5 01:20:42 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2015 23:20:42 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System Message-ID: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system booting up to z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU. Even though the video is about 9-1/2 minutes long, it takes longer than that to boot. I edited out some of the more boring bits. ;-) TTFN - Guy From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 03:18:11 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 01:18:11 -0700 Subject: Pertec Tape Drive Interface Musings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >If you're willing to run MSDOS with an appropriate ASPI driver, >I can send you a utility that I know works []You're >welcome to the source code. >--Chuck Chuck, Could you share your DOS code with me too? I just assembled the hardware for that: a self loading HP88780B SCSI-1 9-track Tape Drive, a vintage DolchPac 65 PC that can multi boot XP, Win98 and DOS fitted with an old SCSI-1 card. And I am reading the SCSI protocol book in the evenings ;-). Your DOS SCSI tape software and source would give me a prodigious head start... I also have Pertec-interfaced Overland Data tape drive, that will be step 2. This is a more straightforward interface. And an HP-IB interfaced HP7970E tape drive waiting in the wings. Marc From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Aug 5 03:42:10 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 10:42:10 +0200 Subject: Was there 3rd party DEC PRO CTI boards? In-Reply-To: <20150805055351.GC7307@Update.UU.SE> References: <20150805055351.GC7307@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <55C1CC62.3020402@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-05 07:53, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > Out of curiousity, since I now have a DEC PRO380. Was there any third > party manufacturer of CTI expansion boards? Yes, there were some other companies that did some boards for the PRO. Never seen any in the wild, though. But I have some DEC handbook that listed a few. I can look it up when I'm back home. (In Sweden now...) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Aug 5 03:51:51 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 10:51:51 +0200 Subject: Was there 3rd party DEC PRO CTI boards? In-Reply-To: <55C1CC62.3020402@update.uu.se> References: <20150805055351.GC7307@Update.UU.SE> <55C1CC62.3020402@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150805085150.GD7307@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Aug 05, 2015 at 10:42:10AM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-05 07:53, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >Hi > > > >Out of curiousity, since I now have a DEC PRO380. Was there any third > >party manufacturer of CTI expansion boards? > > Yes, there were some other companies that did some boards for the > PRO. Never seen any in the wild, though. But I have some DEC > handbook that listed a few. I can look it up when I'm back home. (In > Sweden now...) > Please do, it would be fun to learn what they were. If you remember which handbook I could go look on bitsavers. /P From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Aug 5 04:00:53 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 11:00:53 +0200 Subject: Was there 3rd party DEC PRO CTI boards? In-Reply-To: <20150805085150.GD7307@Update.UU.SE> References: <20150805055351.GC7307@Update.UU.SE> <55C1CC62.3020402@update.uu.se> <20150805085150.GD7307@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <55C1D0C5.7050702@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-05 10:51, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Aug 05, 2015 at 10:42:10AM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-08-05 07:53, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> Out of curiousity, since I now have a DEC PRO380. Was there any third >>> party manufacturer of CTI expansion boards? >> >> Yes, there were some other companies that did some boards for the >> PRO. Never seen any in the wild, though. But I have some DEC >> handbook that listed a few. I can look it up when I'm back home. (In >> Sweden now...) >> > > Please do, it would be fun to learn what they were. If you remember > which handbook I could go look on bitsavers. It's a handbook about software solutions for the DEC Professional. Not sure it's on bitsavers... I need to get back to check the full title. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 5 06:59:51 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 06:59:51 -0500 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> References: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <001801d0cf76$3c6077b0$b5216710$@classiccmp.org> Guy; That's just plain awesome :) J From leec2124 at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 09:00:58 2015 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 07:00:58 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> References: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Oh that is awesome. Lee C. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 11:20 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system booting up > to z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU. > > Even though the video is about 9-1/2 minutes long, it takes longer than > that to boot. I edited out some of the more boring bits. ;-) > > TTFN - Guy > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From useddec at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 11:30:20 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 11:30:20 -0500 Subject: VT340, VT340+, and other monitor repairs Message-ID: Anyone interested in repairing some monitors in exchange for DEC gear or possible cash? sorry, US only because of shipping. Please contact me off list if you are interested. Thanks, Paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 5 12:43:19 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 17:43:19 +0000 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: <3C7A1EE7-9FB8-41D4-A3E4-8E74658F0033@swri.edu> References: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com>,<3C7A1EE7-9FB8-41D4-A3E4-8E74658F0033@swri.edu> Message-ID: > Hmm?. 55 pints? In the UK, the pint (as used, I assume for beer) is 568ml. So assuming that 'pint' means the drink commonly called that over here and assuming beer has a density similar to water [1] then 44 pints is very close. [1] No jokes about making love in a canoe, please. More seriously, and ignoring things like '25 bags of sugar', what about the sort of weights used by those misguided people who do not get their exercise from lifting PDP's into racks? -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 12:54:40 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 18:54:40 +0100 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: References: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com>, <3C7A1EE7-9FB8-41D4-A3E4-8E74658F0033@swri.edu> Message-ID: <020e01d0cfa7$ce4c9d80$6ae5d880$@gmail.com> Those are "imperial pints", in the US a pint is 16 fluid onces so nearer to 464 (I think) grams... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 05 August 2015 18:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Saved DEC kit > > > > Hmm.. 55 pints? > > In the UK, the pint (as used, I assume for beer) is 568ml. So assuming that > 'pint' means the drink commonly called that over here and assuming beer has > a density similar to water [1] then 44 pints is very close. > > [1] No jokes about making love in a canoe, please. > > More seriously, and ignoring things like '25 bags of sugar', what about the > sort of weights used by those misguided people who do not get their > exercise from lifting PDP's into racks? > > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 5 12:49:51 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 17:49:51 +0000 Subject: Unidentified chip In-Reply-To: References: <20150804162556.4AEA618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <55C10736.5090605@flippers.com>, <55C10AB2.5010900@sydex.com>, Message-ID: > > This all assumes it is a TTL and not an ECL or even > and analog chip, such as an opamp. Or a resistor network, diode network, transistor array, programmed PROM, microcontroller, etc, etc, etc. As a total aside, on some HP boards there is a 16 pin DIL package with the part number 1260-0339. Any ideas what that chip is? -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 5 13:03:02 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 13:03:02 -0500 Subject: Unidentified chip In-Reply-To: References: <20150804162556.4AEA618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <55C10736.5090605@flippers.com>, <55C10AB2.5010900@sydex.com>, Message-ID: <003d01d0cfa8$f8d9e7f0$ea8db7d0$@classiccmp.org> Tony wrote... ----- As a total aside, on some HP boards there is a 16 pin DIL package with the part number 1260-0339. Any ideas what that chip is? ----- Is it on any boards related to the HP1000 or 21MX computers? If so... what board? J From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 5 13:03:48 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 18:03:48 +0000 Subject: Unidentified chip In-Reply-To: <003d01d0cfa8$f8d9e7f0$ea8db7d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20150804162556.4AEA618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <55C10736.5090605@flippers.com>, <55C10AB2.5010900@sydex.com>, , <003d01d0cfa8$f8d9e7f0$ea8db7d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > As a total aside, on some HP boards there is a 16 pin DIL package with the > > part number 1260-0339. > > Any ideas what that chip is? > Is it on any boards related to the HP1000 or 21MX computers? If so... what > board? I doubt it, but it might me. I first came across it on the test board for the HP59405 (HPIB for the HP9830). I know what it is, I wondered if others had come across it. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Aug 5 13:09:35 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2015 19:09:35 +0100 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 05/08/2015 18:43, "tony duell" wrote: > More seriously, and ignoring things like '25 bags of sugar', what about the > sort of weights used by > those misguided people who do not get their exercise from lifting PDP's into > racks? Surprisingly none of my weightlifting mates can muster 25kg. I like the idea of a 25kg bag of dog food though, I know somone who works at a pet food supplier... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 5 13:10:34 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 18:10:34 +0000 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > Surprisingly none of my weightlifting mates can muster 25kg. I like the idea I doesn't have to be one mass, does it? Couldn't you pile up 5 off 5kg weights? > of a 25kg bag of dog food though, I know somone who works at a pet food > supplier... Cement is often sold in 25kg bags now. At one time they were 50kg until some H&S guy decided that was too heavy to carry. So now you see builders carrying 2 off 25kg sacks instead. Go figure. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 5 12:55:02 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 17:55:02 +0000 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: <020e01d0cfa7$ce4c9d80$6ae5d880$@gmail.com> References: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com>, <3C7A1EE7-9FB8-41D4-A3E4-8E74658F0033@swri.edu> , <020e01d0cfa7$ce4c9d80$6ae5d880$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Those are "imperial pints", in the US a pint is 16 fluid onces so nearer to > 464 (I think) grams... Sure, I've got it as 473ml or so. But the OP was from the UK, so presumbly uses imperial pints. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 5 13:25:11 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 11:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: <020e01d0cfa7$ce4c9d80$6ae5d880$@gmail.com> References: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com>, <3C7A1EE7-9FB8-41D4-A3E4-8E74658F0033@swri.edu> <020e01d0cfa7$ce4c9d80$6ae5d880$@gmail.com> Message-ID: >>> Hmm.. 55 pints? >> In the UK, the pint (as used, I assume for beer) is 568ml. So assuming >> that 'pint' means the drink commonly called that over here and assuming >> beer has a density similar to water [1] then 44 pints is very close. On Wed, 5 Aug 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: > Those are "imperial pints", in the US a pint is 16 fluid onces so nearer to > 464 (I think) grams... "A pint is a pound, the world around." is no longer true. Not just the price of beer not being a pound per pint, but the unit of measure. And pluto is no longer a planet. Perhaps we should go get 44 pints of beer in UK and 55 pints of beer in USA. Once we drink them all, we'll have a better perspective on the problem. 25Kg is definitely in range for a complete microcomputer, or components of a minicomputer. Or minimal documentation for a system. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 5 13:26:30 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 18:26:30 +0000 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: References: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com>, <3C7A1EE7-9FB8-41D4-A3E4-8E74658F0033@swri.edu> <020e01d0cfa7$ce4c9d80$6ae5d880$@gmail.com>, Message-ID: > > > Those are "imperial pints", in the US a pint is 16 fluid onces so nearer to > > 464 (I think) grams... > > "A pint is a pound, the world around." is no longer true. Not just the Over here we (used to) say 'A pint of water weighs a pound and a quarter' > price of beer not being a pound per pint, but the unit of measure. > And pluto is no longer a planet. No, he's a dog (could not resist). [...] > 25Kg is definitely in range for a complete microcomputer, or components of > a minicomputer. Or minimal documentation for a system. Its about half the weight of many minicomputer bits (I think an RK05 drive is about 50kg for example). -tony From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Aug 5 14:11:04 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 19:11:04 +0000 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: References: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com>, <3C7A1EE7-9FB8-41D4-A3E4-8E74658F0033@swri.edu> <020e01d0cfa7$ce4c9d80$6ae5d880$@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <6520565C-B832-488F-901A-307414E7FF96@swri.edu> On Aug 5, 2015, at 1:26 PM, tony duell wrote: (Fred wrote) >> ...And pluto is no longer a planet. Give us (New Horizons team) a couple years on that. I?ll guess that even the IAU is going to realize the error of their ways by the time all is said and done. > No, he's a dog (could not resist). :-) I have heard a lot of ballyhoo about Pluto disovered by Americans, first explored by American spacecraft, etc. etc. Oddly, not as much about its being named by a Briton (Venetia Phair, nee Burney). FWIW, I was thinking about the (apparently mythical) pound-weight pint. And aware the approximation wasn?t good even to three significant figures, but I also guessed that after disposing of the test mass, nobody would care much about that third significant figure (as Fred points out)! - Mark From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Aug 5 14:20:34 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2015 20:20:34 +0100 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 05/08/2015 19:10, "tony duell" wrote: >> Surprisingly none of my weightlifting mates can muster 25kg. I like the idea > > I doesn't have to be one mass, does it? Couldn't you pile up 5 off 5kg > weights? Nope, biggest mass was 20kg. You'd also think that with a warehouse full of Proliants and Procurve switches I'd be able to amass 25kg easily, but no. Dog food is still winning :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 5 18:06:18 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 18:06:18 -0500 Subject: OT RE: Saved DEC kit Message-ID: <000f01d0cfd3$56c8be70$045a3b50$@classiccmp.org> Tony wrote (re: 25kg)... ---- Its about half the weight of many minicomputer bits (I think an RK05 drive is about 50kg for example). ---- I cry DEC-bias, using an RK05 as your UOM ;) For HP, a bare 7906 drive is 75kg (165#), and with controller, power supply, and desk side rack that only holds the one drive - 154kg (340#). A 7970 is 59kg (130#). A bare 2113 cpu is 30kg (65#). Funny how I have those weights right at the top of my head ;) So I'd say that 25kg is more like 1/3 of many minicomputer bits *grin* J From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 02:32:56 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 00:32:56 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow. I'll never complain again that it takes too long to boot Windows... From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Aug 6 04:29:53 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 11:29:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> References: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Aug 2015, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system booting up to > z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU. I thought the P/390 was the smallest S/390? Christian From jws at jwsss.com Thu Aug 6 04:49:36 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 02:49:36 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <55C32DB0.1070104@jwsss.com> the P/390 / R/390 systems are the smallest, but they don't support a lot of systems features, such as LPARS and the like that you need to be a full S/390 system. Also the card doesn't fully support z/OS. Redbook on page 17 says, "Don't call us because it looks like it runs z/OS". The MP3000 does support LPAR and Sysplex. http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg246204.pdf On 8/6/2015 2:29 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 4 Aug 2015, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system booting >> up to z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU. > > I thought the P/390 was the smallest S/390? > > Christian > > From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 05:30:49 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 12:30:49 +0200 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: References: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com> <3C7A1EE7-9FB8-41D4-A3E4-8E74658F0033@swri.edu> <020e01d0cfa7$ce4c9d80$6ae5d880$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5 August 2015 at 20:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > "A pint is a pound, the world around." is no longer true. Never was. You always did use weird pints. They were *our* bloody silly measure, until we adopted something more sensible and easier to use... And *nobody* else uses pounds, Fahrenheit or MM-DD-YY. Not in about 2 generations, mostly. Often more. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 6 06:35:02 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 11:35:02 +0000 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: References: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com> <3C7A1EE7-9FB8-41D4-A3E4-8E74658F0033@swri.edu> <020e01d0cfa7$ce4c9d80$6ae5d880$@gmail.com> , Message-ID: > > Never was. You always did use weird pints. They were *our* bloody > silly measure, until we adopted something more sensible and easier to > use... Actually, 10 is a lousy base for a measuring system. It has far too few factors. > And *nobody* else uses pounds, Fahrenheit or MM-DD-YY. Not in about 2 > generations, mostly. Often more. Please stop calling me 'nobody'. I have used pounds (for weight) in the last day and degrees Fahrenheit in the last week. I can remember the last time I used Rankine, though -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 6 08:16:30 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 06:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Marc Verdiell wrote: > Wow. I'll never complain again that it takes too long to boot Windows... > One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? Why would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to boot it? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 6 08:38:46 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:38:46 -0500 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d0d04d$38a808e0$a9f81aa0$@classiccmp.org> Gene wrote... ----- One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? Why would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to boot it? ---- To report higher sales of OS2/Warp? ;) Not the only one though, ISTR the 11/780 used a 11/03 to boot? J From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 08:47:14 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 09:47:14 -0400 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <000001d0d04d$38a808e0$a9f81aa0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d0d04d$38a808e0$a9f81aa0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > To report higher sales of OS2/Warp? ;) > > Not the only one though, ISTR the 11/780 used a 11/03 to boot? Quite a lots of larger machines do. -- Will From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Thu Aug 6 08:49:19 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 14:49:19 +0100 Subject: Wanted: Pertec Tape Controller Message-ID: Hi all, I'm looking for a pertec controller suitable for a Qualstar 1052. ISA/SCSI/S-100 interfaces are fine. If anyone has one to sell, please let me know. Regards, -Tom From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Aug 6 08:52:38 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 09:52:38 -0400 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: <000001d0d04d$38a808e0$a9f81aa0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <0A268828-4B6E-4C9D-A0E8-4CEB71E01A61@comcast.net> > On Aug 6, 2015, at 9:47 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> To report higher sales of OS2/Warp? ;) >> >> Not the only one though, ISTR the 11/780 used a 11/03 to boot? > > Quite a lots of larger machines do. A lot of machines have I/O processors of some sort, and often those boot first. You can go back to the CDC 6600 and the Electrologica EL-X8 in the early 1960s, perhaps further. Cray, ILLIAC IV, KL-10, ... lots of other examples. paul From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 6 08:54:04 2015 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 14:54:04 +0100 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <000001d0d04d$38a808e0$a9f81aa0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d0d04d$38a808e0$a9f81aa0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <55C366FC.3090308@ntlworld.com> On 06/08/15 14:38, Jay West wrote: > Gene wrote... > ----- > One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? Why > would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to boot it? > ---- > To report higher sales of OS2/Warp? ;) > > Not the only one though, ISTR the 11/780 used a 11/03 to boot? > I think many of the larger VAXen had another processor in there to boot. The VAX 8500/8700/8000 used a PRO iirc. I think the VAX 9000 used a Microvax II CPU as the boot processor. I always assumed that DEC had a warehouse full of the whatever was used that they needed to shift :-) Antonio From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 6 09:10:12 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 07:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <000001d0d04d$38a808e0$a9f81aa0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d0d04d$38a808e0$a9f81aa0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Jay West wrote: > Gene wrote... > ----- > One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? Why > would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to boot it? > ---- > To report higher sales of OS2/Warp? ;) > I'll rate that as "Midly Plausible". :) > Not the only one though, ISTR the 11/780 used a 11/03 to boot? > I guess I just don't understand WHY. Wouldn't it be more economical (both from a manufacturing and sales standpoint) to design a mini or mainframe that could boot with nothing more than a dumb terminal as a system console? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 6 09:33:38 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 07:33:38 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> On 8/6/15 6:16 AM, geneb wrote: > One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? > Why would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to > boot it? > > Main processor microcode is in RAM. Putting microcode in ram and having a small computer load it was actually pretty common in the 70's and 80's in larger systems since then you didn't have to manage the hassle of patching microcode in ROM. Apple ended up putting a small TI microcontroller in the G5 because it also couldn't boot on its own. There was a bunch of volatile state you had to set up before it would fetch its first instruction. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 6 09:56:19 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 07:56:19 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> On 08/06/2015 07:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Main processor microcode is in RAM. Putting microcode in ram and having > a small computer load it was actually pretty common in the 70's and 80's > in larger systems since then you didn't have to manage the hassle of > patching microcode in ROM. > > Apple ended up putting a small TI microcontroller in the G5 because it > also couldn't boot on its own. There was a bunch of volatile state you > had to set up before it would fetch its first instruction. And really big iron almost always had some sort of maintenance control processor--some with their own mass storage. Have a separate, simpler processor handle the management of a larger one made a lot of sense, particularly when it came to diagnostic activity. Think Cray, CDC,... --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 09:59:51 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 15:59:51 +0100 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <017101d0d058$8c9c5720$a5d50560$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: 06 August 2015 15:34 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System > > > > On 8/6/15 6:16 AM, geneb wrote: > > One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? > > Why would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to > > boot it? > > > > > > Main processor microcode is in RAM. Putting microcode in ram and having a > small computer load it was actually pretty common in the 70's and 80's in > larger systems since then you didn't have to manage the hassle of patching > microcode in ROM. > On a "normal" 360/370/390/Z there are multiple independent I/O processors, called Channels. When you hit the IPL button it is one of the i/o processors that actually loads the OS. On an MP3000 the PC does some of the I/O work so it may be needed to IPL. Most IBM Mainframes from 370 onwards have control processors to manage the main CPU. Some even have smaller mainframes, so one has a 43xx box running VM/CMS as the control box... I believe that Gene Amdahl patented the use of a control processor and IBM paid him licence fees for every Mainframe with a control processor. Of course IBM owned the patents on Virtual Memory so Gene had to pay IBM to use those.... > Apple ended up putting a small TI microcontroller in the G5 because it also > couldn't boot on its own. There was a bunch of volatile state you had to set > up before it would fetch its first instruction. > Lots of newer servers have some sort of control processor. I am used to IBM "X" series which have a control CPU, and on payment of the appropriate licence fee, you can enable remote console support which provides a Java app which can be used to boot the server, power the main CPU up and down, and even map a remove floppy/CD/DVD so you can remotely install an OS. Before anyone asks it has a separate RJ45 jack. As long ago as 2000 I remember Compaq having a RIB board which did the same. I think it is now standard.. Dave G4UGM From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 6 10:27:58 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 10:27:58 -0500 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C37CFE.2000107@charter.net> Lots of machines have had console processors that were required for the machine to run. The PDP-10 had a PDP-11 console processor. The Amdahl 470 had a DG Nova for a console processor, etc. etc. On 8/6/2015 8:16 AM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Marc Verdiell wrote: > >> Wow. I'll never complain again that it takes too long to boot Windows... >> > One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? > Why would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to > boot it? > > g. From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 6 10:30:32 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 10:30:32 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Pertec Tape Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C37D98.5080609@charter.net> I wouldn't mind one as well -- I have a handful of Pertec drives that it would be nice to be able to talk to. One that handles multiple interface speeds would be a plus. I suppose I could always design one.... ;) On 8/6/2015 8:49 AM, Tom Moss wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm looking for a pertec controller suitable for a Qualstar 1052. > ISA/SCSI/S-100 interfaces are fine. If anyone has one to sell, please let > me know. > > Regards, > -Tom > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 6 10:35:57 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:35:57 -0700 Subject: Wanted: Pertec Tape Controller In-Reply-To: <55C37D98.5080609@charter.net> References: <55C37D98.5080609@charter.net> Message-ID: <55C37EDD.5030500@bitsavers.org> On 8/6/15 8:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I wouldn't mind one as well -- I have a handful of Pertec drives that it > would be nice to be able to talk to. One that handles multiple > interface speeds would be a plus. > > I suppose I could always design one.... ;) > Formatted Pertec is a fairly simple interface. Chuck has talked in the past of designing one, and some of the gotchas with the interface. Qualstar built two different styles of Pertec-SCSI adapter for the 1054. I'll see about putting board pics and rom dumps up, but as has been discussed, SCSI has problems when talking to tapes. I think Pertec - Ethernet is the way to go, and not mess around with SCSI or USB. From scaron at umich.edu Thu Aug 6 10:04:07 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 11:04:07 -0400 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> Message-ID: And so it remains today; most servers sold for data center applications include a little service processor ... I've found it's usually a little embedded ARM or PPC ... that you can use for remote console, remote power control, etc. Although these are not required to bootstrap the system, of course. If you think the MP3000 is a slow booter, we just got some new 4U machines in where I work; 1.5TB RAM; those things take almost 20 minutes to POST - no joke! Best, Sean On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/06/2015 07:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > Main processor microcode is in RAM. Putting microcode in ram and having >> a small computer load it was actually pretty common in the 70's and 80's >> in larger systems since then you didn't have to manage the hassle of >> patching microcode in ROM. >> >> Apple ended up putting a small TI microcontroller in the G5 because it >> also couldn't boot on its own. There was a bunch of volatile state you >> had to set up before it would fetch its first instruction. >> > > And really big iron almost always had some sort of maintenance control > processor--some with their own mass storage. Have a separate, simpler > processor handle the management of a larger one made a lot of sense, > particularly when it came to diagnostic activity. > > Think Cray, CDC,... > > --Chuck > > From scaron at umich.edu Thu Aug 6 10:09:06 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 11:09:06 -0400 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> Message-ID: BTW I love your little terminal room there ... these things are on the fantasy list for me right next to the LISP Machine and TOAD-1, LOL. I wonder if it runs MTS? :O At least I've got Hercules :O Best, Sean On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > And so it remains today; most servers sold for data center applications > include a little service processor ... I've found it's usually a little > embedded ARM or PPC ... that you can use for remote console, remote power > control, etc. Although these are not required to bootstrap the system, of > course. > > If you think the MP3000 is a slow booter, we just got some new 4U machines > in where I work; 1.5TB RAM; those things take almost 20 minutes to POST - > no joke! > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 08/06/2015 07:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> Main processor microcode is in RAM. Putting microcode in ram and having >>> a small computer load it was actually pretty common in the 70's and 80's >>> in larger systems since then you didn't have to manage the hassle of >>> patching microcode in ROM. >>> >>> Apple ended up putting a small TI microcontroller in the G5 because it >>> also couldn't boot on its own. There was a bunch of volatile state you >>> had to set up before it would fetch its first instruction. >>> >> >> And really big iron almost always had some sort of maintenance control >> processor--some with their own mass storage. Have a separate, simpler >> processor handle the management of a larger one made a lot of sense, >> particularly when it came to diagnostic activity. >> >> Think Cray, CDC,... >> >> --Chuck >> >> > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 6 11:19:32 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 09:19:32 -0700 Subject: Wanted: Pertec Tape Controller In-Reply-To: <55C37EDD.5030500@bitsavers.org> References: <55C37D98.5080609@charter.net> <55C37EDD.5030500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55C38914.5060304@sydex.com> On 08/06/2015 08:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Formatted Pertec is a fairly simple interface. Chuck has talked in > the past of designing one, and some of the gotchas with the > interface. > > Qualstar built two different styles of Pertec-SCSI adapter for the > 1054. I'll see about putting board pics and rom dumps up, but as has > been discussed, SCSI has problems when talking to tapes. > > I think Pertec - Ethernet is the way to go, and not mess around with > SCSI or USB. I've got the Verilog for an XC95128 CPLD checked out--and have tested the programming on one in a testbed lashup. The interface is basically "wishbone", via a single 8-bit port and 3 address lines. All of the detail, such as parity generation, error latching, etc. is handled by the CPLD. Done that way mostly to create a generic interface without a lot of SSI packages. I can talk to it directly from a PC parallel port. Rolling your own is easy. The interface is basically unidirectional open-collector. You could probably do it, if you weren't too fussy, with an 8255 or two. For me, that "last mile" is a bit of a problem. Is the goal simply to grab all the data from a tape and save it? Then an interface to, say, an SD Card is both cheap and affords plenty of space. Or is something wanted that gives immediate control over the tape drive--that is, something like SCSI? USB and Ethernet are both attractive, but you'll have to work out the host-side driver software. Does anyone still *write* tapes any more, save for the occasional copying task? Lots of questions with no clear answers. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 6 11:24:13 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 09:24:13 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> On 08/06/2015 08:04 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > If you think the MP3000 is a slow booter, we just got some new 4U > machines in where I work; 1.5TB RAM; those things take almost 20 > minutes to POST - no joke! Booting an old CDC 6000-series machine meant mounting a "deadstart" tape, pushing the button just below the screens on the DD60, entering or editing the equipment status table, then going out for a smoke (not me) or a cup of coffee, while the system copied the deadstart tape to disk. The next prompt was to enter the date and time. People are too impatient today. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 6 11:22:39 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 16:22:39 +0000 Subject: Unidentified chip -- Spoiler for HP 1260-0339 Message-ID: > As a total aside, on some HP boards there is a 16 pin DIL package with the part number 1260-0339. > Any ideas what that chip is? What chip? Amazingly there is nothing inside that 16pin DIL package. No silicon chip, no thick-film resistor network, nothing. It is just a package with the pins. The purpose of it? It's a connector (!) to fit one of those IC test clips on to monitor various signals. -tony From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Aug 6 11:26:17 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 11:26:17 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Pertec Tape Controller In-Reply-To: <55C37EDD.5030500@bitsavers.org> References: <55C37D98.5080609@charter.net> <55C37EDD.5030500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55C38AA9.1000105@pico-systems.com> On 08/06/2015 10:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 8/6/15 8:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> I wouldn't mind one as well -- I have a handful of Pertec >> drives that it >> would be nice to be able to talk to. One that handles >> multiple >> interface speeds would be a plus. >> >> I suppose I could always design one.... ;) >> > > Formatted Pertec is a fairly simple interface. Chuck has > talked in the past of designing one, and some of the > gotchas with the interface. > Yes, I hacked up one of my CNC control boards to make it into a read-only adapter for Pertec formatted drives. Works well, but is pretty slow. I've thought that using the PRU (attached 32-bit, 200 MHz micorcontroller) on the Beagle Bone would make a really great formatted Pertec interface. One problem is limited memory directly on the PRU, I haven't learned yet how to use the bulk system memory from the PRU. Jon From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Aug 6 11:35:26 2015 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 18:35:26 +0200 Subject: Wanted: Pertec Tape Controller References: Message-ID: <01744D42DABB47619D2400CAA6FACBFB@NOTEBOOK> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Moss" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2015 3:49 PM Subject: Wanted: Pertec Tape Controller > Hi all, > > I'm looking for a pertec controller suitable for a Qualstar 1052. > ISA/SCSI/S-100 interfaces are fine. If anyone has one to sell, please let > me know. > Regards, > -Tom Hi all I have always used TXI-16 and TX8 adapters. The TX8 could be used in IBM XT (8 bit connector), and in AT's. I believe they came from Overland. IIRC, there also used to be a similar one from Shafstall. The 1052 has a pertec interface. If I am not mistaken, the 1053 is the SCSI model. Regards Nico -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 2020 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From leec2124 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 12:07:13 2015 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 10:07:13 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> Message-ID: Even modern SOCs and the processor in your PC/laptop have a micro-controller or PMIC that brings ups the rest of the chip. In the PC case (verses mainframe) it is on the same die and fabric as the CPU (and the scads of other CPUs, GPUs, Sensor Hubs, vision processors, etc). Lee C. On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 9:24 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/06/2015 08:04 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > > If you think the MP3000 is a slow booter, we just got some new 4U >> machines in where I work; 1.5TB RAM; those things take almost 20 >> minutes to POST - no joke! >> > > Booting an old CDC 6000-series machine meant mounting a "deadstart" tape, > pushing the button just below the screens on the DD60, entering or editing > the equipment status table, then going out for a smoke (not me) or a cup of > coffee, while the system copied the deadstart tape to disk. The next > prompt was to enter the date and time. > > People are too impatient today. > > --Chuck > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Aug 6 12:41:41 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 10:41:41 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C39C55.3090902@shiresoft.com> In many cases more than one! ;-) But more to the point, having a separate processor handing the booting chores frees the main CPU from those tasks. Initialization can be a pain just look at the x86 ISA and the hoops it makes the S/W (BIOS & OS) just to get to the point where the OS can really start it's own initialization! And that doesn't even cover the "magic" that goes on just so that the x86 CPU can fetch the first instruction. As folks have mentioned, a lot of larg(er) system have service processors to handle the booting chores. However, it's more than that. The service processor (as the name implies) is doing a whole lot more than just booting. It is also responsible for running low level diagnostics and capturing the results of hard crashes for later diagnosis. For example, the RS/6000 series, had a service processor. It was even responsible for loading the OS kernel image into RAM. This made the OS's like much easier. Back to the MP 3000. There are a number of CPUs in the box. Two are the most obvious: the SBC running OS/2 and the actual S/390 CPU. However, there is another S/390 CPU in the box as well. It is not visible (at least directly) to S/W. It is responsible for providing the high performance I/O capabilities (like native disk access and making them appear as conventional channel attached devices instead of RAID-5 SSA drives). The OS/2 SBC is there to emulate some of the slower devices (card reader/punch, direct attached 3270s, etc). TTFN - Guy On 8/6/15 10:07 AM, Lee Courtney wrote: > Even modern SOCs and the processor in your PC/laptop have a > micro-controller or PMIC that brings ups the rest of the chip. In the PC > case (verses mainframe) it is on the same die and fabric as the CPU (and > the scads of other CPUs, GPUs, Sensor Hubs, vision processors, etc). > > Lee C. > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 9:24 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 08/06/2015 08:04 AM, Sean Caron wrote: >> >> If you think the MP3000 is a slow booter, we just got some new 4U >>> machines in where I work; 1.5TB RAM; those things take almost 20 >>> minutes to POST - no joke! >>> >> Booting an old CDC 6000-series machine meant mounting a "deadstart" tape, >> pushing the button just below the screens on the DD60, entering or editing >> the equipment status table, then going out for a smoke (not me) or a cup of >> coffee, while the system copied the deadstart tape to disk. The next >> prompt was to enter the date and time. >> >> People are too impatient today. >> >> --Chuck >> >> > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 12:43:53 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 18:43:53 +0100 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> Message-ID: <027301d0d06f$76bb2d70$64318850$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 06 August 2015 17:24 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System > > On 08/06/2015 08:04 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > > > If you think the MP3000 is a slow booter, we just got some new 4U > > machines in where I work; 1.5TB RAM; those things take almost 20 > > minutes to POST - no joke! > > Booting an old CDC 6000-series machine meant mounting a "deadstart" > tape, pushing the button just below the screens on the DD60, entering or > editing the equipment status table, then going out for a smoke (not me) or a > cup of coffee, while the system copied the deadstart tape to disk. > The next prompt was to enter the date and time. > > People are too impatient today. > > --Chuck Actually I remember booting an IBM4381 from cold after we shut it down over Christmas. Just pressing the Power button powered it up eventually, but I am pretty sure it took nearly an hour to get to the IPL prompt. So it did disk drives, then tape drives, then other bits and bobs. But when it spun up the disks it brought them up one at a time so the startup surges didn't trip the main breaker. The same with the tape drives. Then it loaded the microcode into all the controllers. Then it booted the OS. As we were running VM this last bit took a few seconds (I think). I do know if VM crashed you screen logo frequently re-appeared before you had time to think. Dave Wade G4UGM From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Aug 6 12:54:20 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 10:54:20 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <027301d0d06f$76bb2d70$64318850$@gmail.com> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> <027301d0d06f$76bb2d70$64318850$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55C39F4C.5040403@shiresoft.com> On 8/6/15 10:43 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck >> Guzis >> Sent: 06 August 2015 17:24 >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- >> Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System >> >> On 08/06/2015 08:04 AM, Sean Caron wrote: >> >>> If you think the MP3000 is a slow booter, we just got some new 4U >>> machines in where I work; 1.5TB RAM; those things take almost 20 >>> minutes to POST - no joke! >> Booting an old CDC 6000-series machine meant mounting a "deadstart" >> tape, pushing the button just below the screens on the DD60, entering or >> editing the equipment status table, then going out for a smoke (not me) or a >> cup of coffee, while the system copied the deadstart tape to disk. >> The next prompt was to enter the date and time. >> >> People are too impatient today. >> >> --Chuck > Actually I remember booting an IBM4381 from cold after we shut it down over Christmas. Just pressing the Power button powered it up eventually, but I am pretty sure it took nearly an hour to get to the IPL prompt. So it did disk drives, then tape drives, then other bits and bobs. But when it spun up the disks it brought them up one at a time so the startup surges didn't trip the main breaker. The same with the tape drives. Then it loaded the microcode into all the controllers. Then it booted the OS. As we were running VM this last bit took a few seconds (I think). I do know if VM crashed you screen logo frequently re-appeared before you had time to think. What freaked me out about the MP3000 is how long it takes from the time you hit the power switch until *anything* happens (like fans spinning). There's a lot being checked out during power up and that takes time. TTFN - Guy From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 13:05:59 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 13:05:59 -0500 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C39C55.3090902@shiresoft.com> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> <55C39C55.3090902@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Back to the MP 3000. There are a number of CPUs in the box. Two are the > most > obvious: the SBC running OS/2 and the actual S/390 CPU. However, there is > another > S/390 CPU in the box as well. It is not visible (at least directly) to S/W. > It is responsible > for providing the high performance I/O capabilities (like native disk access > and making > them appear as conventional channel attached devices instead of RAID-5 SSA > drives). > The OS/2 SBC is there to emulate some of the slower devices (card > reader/punch, > direct attached 3270s, etc). So the OS/2 computer is actually a component of the mainframe's control processor, not a separate PC? From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Thu Aug 6 13:07:21 2015 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 13:07:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <027301d0d06f$76bb2d70$64318850$@gmail.com> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> <027301d0d06f$76bb2d70$64318850$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: >> Booting an old CDC 6000-series machine meant mounting a "deadstart" >> tape, pushing the button just below the screens on the DD60, entering or >> editing the equipment status table, then going out for a smoke (not me) or a >> cup of coffee, while the system copied the deadstart tape to disk. >> The next prompt was to enter the date and time. >> >> People are too impatient today. >> >> --Chuck > > Actually I remember booting an IBM4381 from cold after we shut it down over Christmas. Just pressing the Power button powered it up eventually, but I am pretty sure it took nearly an hour to get to the IPL prompt. So it did disk drives, then tape drives, then other bits and bobs. But when it spun up the disks it brought them up one at a time so the startup surges didn't trip the main breaker. The same with the tape drives. Then it loaded the microcode into all the controllers. Then it booted the OS. As we were running VM this last bit took a few seconds (I think). I do know if VM crashed you screen logo frequently re-appeared before you had time to think. Spinning off on this tangent, when I was learning how to fire up my Sun E10k I didn't realise it took so ruddy long for the SSP and the E10k to speak to each other. So I was constantly asking the SSP for the E10k's power status (to see if they were communicating) and being told the SSP "wasn't the master". I'd powered things up repeatedly and made all sorts of changes to the SSP config and just couldn't figure out what wasn't working. So one day I'm messing with it again and I'd walked over to the other side of the shop for a manual and gotten distracted and maybe ten minuted passed and all of a sudden all of the blowers dropped RPM and evened out. The SSP and E10k had finally finished their secret masonic handshake and the SSP did the equivalent of "Hey, dude, it's not 7000 degrees in here, you can chillax now". "People are too impatient today" -- Chuck G True enough. I just didn't know enough to know I should be patient. - JP From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 6 13:16:13 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 12:16:13 -0600 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C3A46D.2030903@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/6/2015 1:32 AM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > Wow. I'll never complain again that it takes too long to boot Windows... > Now how about windows shutting down... Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 6 13:17:07 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 12:17:07 -0600 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: References: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com> <3C7A1EE7-9FB8-41D4-A3E4-8E74658F0033@swri.edu> <020e01d0cfa7$ce4c9d80$6ae5d880$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55C3A4A3.9010704@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/6/2015 4:30 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 5 August 2015 at 20:25, Fred Cisin wrote: >> "A pint is a pound, the world around." is no longer true. > > Never was. You always did use weird pints. They were *our* bloody > silly measure, until we adopted something more sensible and easier to > use... > > And *nobody* else uses pounds, Fahrenheit or MM-DD-YY. Not in about 2 > generations, mostly. Often more. > I do! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 6 13:21:11 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 12:21:11 -0600 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: <000001d0d04d$38a808e0$a9f81aa0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <55C3A597.4080901@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/6/2015 7:47 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> To report higher sales of OS2/Warp? ;) >> >> Not the only one though, ISTR the 11/780 used a 11/03 to boot? > > Quite a lots of larger machines do. That don't bother me as much as the hidden source software used with modern (mad laugh) OS code. Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 6 13:21:26 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 11:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Wow. I'll never complain again that it takes too long to boot Windows... On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, geneb wrote: > One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? Why > would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to boot it? "Why CAN'T the operating system have full functionality during booting?" I had an interesting conversation almost 30 years ago with a published expert on operating systemes and C programming, when he was bothered by why IO.SYS/IBMBIO.COM and DOS.SYS/IBMDOS.COM had to be in specific places on the drive. "Booting" is of course short for "bootstrapping", which is a multi-hundred year old term for a obviously ridiculously impossible task: "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps". I had always thought that that derived from Baron Von Munchausen, but a little research turns up that the baron had lifted himself and his horse out of the swamp by his pigtail, not his bootstraps. It wasn't until early 1800s that "bootstrapping" became the iconic example. The reason that IPL is called "booting" is because it is such an obviously ridiculously impossible task. "You can't use the operating system to load the operating system." Obviously it is simplest if somebody (or machine) outside, loads the code into memory, and then triggers a GOTO. Which is cheaper, or more reliable, a "trained" operator, or a smaller external machine? The really clever way, though, was to toggle in, or have a little ROM, to load a TINY bit of stored code ("boot sector") into RAM, GOTO it, and it could contain enough code to load a bigger chunk, which could have plenty of code to load the rest. Why not just put the OS in ROM? That would require more ROM, would make bug-fixes more difficult, and would make it more difficult to modify the OS to add new features, such as security holes. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 6 13:24:47 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 12:24:47 -0600 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: <000001d0d04d$38a808e0$a9f81aa0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <55C3A66F.70105@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/6/2015 8:10 AM, geneb wrote: > I guess I just don't understand WHY. Wouldn't it be more economical > (both from a manufacturing and sales standpoint) to design a mini or > mainframe that could boot with nothing more than a dumb terminal as a > system console? > > g. Whispers Time Sharing... Sell big fat systems. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 13:25:35 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 19:25:35 +0100 Subject: OT: SNA was RE: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System Message-ID: <02d401d0d075$4a5945e0$df0bd1a0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin > Sent: 06 August 2015 19:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System > > > > On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> Booting an old CDC 6000-series machine meant mounting a "deadstart" > >> tape, pushing the button just below the screens on the DD60, entering > >> or editing the equipment status table, then going out for a smoke > >> (not me) or a cup of coffee, while the system copied the deadstart tape > to disk. > >> The next prompt was to enter the date and time. > >> > >> People are too impatient today. > >> > >> --Chuck > > > > Actually I remember booting an IBM4381 from cold after we shut it down > over Christmas. Just pressing the Power button powered it up eventually, > but I am pretty sure it took nearly an hour to get to the IPL prompt. So it did > disk drives, then tape drives, then other bits and bobs. But when it spun up > the disks it brought them up one at a time so the startup surges didn't trip > the main breaker. The same with the tape drives. Then it loaded the > microcode into all the controllers. Then it booted the OS. As we were running > VM this last bit took a few seconds (I think). I do know if VM crashed you > screen logo frequently re-appeared before you had time to think. > > Spinning off on this tangent, when I was learning how to fire up my Sun E10k > I didn't realise it took so ruddy long for the SSP and the E10k to speak to each > other. > So I was constantly asking the SSP for the E10k's power status (to see if they > were communicating) and being told the SSP "wasn't the master". > > I'd powered things up repeatedly and made all sorts of changes to the SSP > config and just couldn't figure out what wasn't working. So one day I'm > messing with it again and I'd walked over to the other side of the shop for a > manual and gotten distracted and maybe ten minuted passed and all of a > sudden all of the blowers dropped RPM and evened out. The SSP and E10k > had finally finished their secret masonic handshake and the SSP did the > equivalent of "Hey, dude, it's not 7000 degrees in here, you can chillax now". > > "People are too impatient today" -- Chuck G > > True enough. I just didn't know enough to know I should be patient. Excuse me if this isn't Exactly right, but I seem to recall some on in IBM saying that Thomas Watson Jr got a phone call one day. It went... TWJ: Thomas Watson here CLR: Is that Thomas Watson Jnr. TWJ: Yes CLR: and you are the head of IBM TWJ: Yes CLR and you first name is Thomas TWJ: yes CLR: and you are the head of IBM TWJ: yes CLE: and you are in your office TWJ: yes, but what do you want CLR: Just thought I would show what it is like trying set up and SNA session. Bye... > > - JP From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 6 13:43:27 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 13:43:27 -0500 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> Acch. All this modern/complicated stuff. Once you powered on an IBM 1410 (2 seconds), you could have it (141O O/S: 1410-PR-155) running in as little as a minute, counting the tape drive mount: Mount tape on unit 0 [30 seconds tops, as tape is probably already there] Storage Scan to +1 Sense switches to a blank character [The above two were normally left that way] Mode switch to CE Computer Reset Start 00000 [This clears storage] Computer Reset Move Mode Switch to Display Start 00000 [Display before altering] Press margin release on console typewriter while it types out "bbbbb" Computer Reset Move Mode Switch to Alter 00000 A(WM)L%B000012$(WM)N [Read tape to end of core/record to loc 12] Computer Reset Start [Wait about 10 seconds for 1410-PR-155 to load] :) On 8/6/2015 1:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Wow. I'll never complain again that it takes too long to boot Windows... > > On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, geneb wrote: >> One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? >> Why would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to >> boot it? > > "Why CAN'T the operating system have full functionality during booting?" > I had an interesting conversation almost 30 years ago with a published > expert on operating systemes and C programming, when he was bothered by > why IO.SYS/IBMBIO.COM and DOS.SYS/IBMDOS.COM had to be in specific > places on the drive. > > "Booting" is of course short for "bootstrapping", which is a > multi-hundred year old term for a obviously ridiculously impossible > task: "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps". > I had always thought that that derived from Baron Von Munchausen, > but a little research turns up that the baron had lifted himself > and his horse out of the swamp by his pigtail, not his bootstraps. > It wasn't until early 1800s that "bootstrapping" became the iconic example. > > The reason that IPL is called "booting" is because it is such an > obviously ridiculously impossible task. > "You can't use the operating system to load the operating system." > > Obviously it is simplest if somebody (or machine) outside, loads > the code into memory, and then triggers a GOTO. > Which is cheaper, or more reliable, a "trained" operator, or a > smaller external machine? > > The really clever way, though, was to toggle in, or have a little ROM, > to load a TINY bit of stored code ("boot sector") into RAM, GOTO it, > and it could contain enough code to load a bigger chunk, which could > have plenty of code to load the rest. > > > Why not just put the OS in ROM? > That would require more ROM, would make bug-fixes more difficult, > and would make it more difficult to modify the OS to add new > features, such as security holes. > > > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Aug 6 13:43:49 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 11:43:49 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> <55C39C55.3090902@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <55C3AAE5.4040908@shiresoft.com> On 8/6/15 11:05 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Back to the MP 3000. There are a number of CPUs in the box. Two are the >> most >> obvious: the SBC running OS/2 and the actual S/390 CPU. However, there is >> another >> S/390 CPU in the box as well. It is not visible (at least directly) to S/W. >> It is responsible >> for providing the high performance I/O capabilities (like native disk access >> and making >> them appear as conventional channel attached devices instead of RAID-5 SSA >> drives). >> The OS/2 SBC is there to emulate some of the slower devices (card >> reader/punch, >> direct attached 3270s, etc). > So the OS/2 computer is actually a component of the mainframe's > control processor, not a separate PC? In various other S/390 and z/Series machines, there is a laptop that is the "service element" with special S/W (now I think on Linux). On the MP3000, it is a single board computer that is on what looks like a big PCI card. By it's nature it is hooked into various parts of the MP3000 system through the various other things that sit on the PCI bus. Note that the PCI bus is shared between the SBC and the other parts of the MP3000. If you don't fire up the system element software the OS/2 system would appear as a somewhat "normal" PC with a bunch of special device drivers. There's a great diagram (too complicated to reproduce in ASCII art) that illustrates all of the major components in the MP3000. It's located in the IBM Redbook "Multiprise 3000 Technical Introduction". It's Figure 1 on page 8 of the redbook. This is a really great introduction on the MP3000. TTFN - Guy From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Aug 6 13:43:58 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 20:43:58 +0200 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> Message-ID: <55C3AAEE.30005@update.uu.se> PDP-8 with OS/8 on an RK05. From power up until booted and ready was basically the time for the disk to spin up, which was about 10 seconds. The actual booting of the system is about 0.3 seconds. Add 5 seconds if you had to manually enter the bootstrap. Johnny On 2015-08-06 20:43, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Acch. All this modern/complicated stuff. Once you powered on an IBM > 1410 (2 seconds), you could have it (141O O/S: 1410-PR-155) running in > as little as a minute, counting the tape drive mount: > > Mount tape on unit 0 [30 seconds tops, as tape is probably already there] > Storage Scan to +1 > Sense switches to a blank character > [The above two were normally left that way] > Mode switch to CE > Computer Reset > Start > 00000 [This clears storage] > Computer Reset > Move Mode Switch to Display > Start > 00000 [Display before altering] > Press margin release on console typewriter while it types out "bbbbb" > Computer Reset > Move Mode Switch to Alter > 00000 > A(WM)L%B000012$(WM)N [Read tape to end of core/record to loc 12] > Computer Reset > Start > [Wait about 10 seconds for 1410-PR-155 to load] > > :) > > > > On 8/6/2015 1:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Wow. I'll never complain again that it takes too long to boot Windows... >> >> On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, geneb wrote: >>> One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? >>> Why would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to >>> boot it? >> >> "Why CAN'T the operating system have full functionality during booting?" >> I had an interesting conversation almost 30 years ago with a published >> expert on operating systemes and C programming, when he was bothered by >> why IO.SYS/IBMBIO.COM and DOS.SYS/IBMDOS.COM had to be in specific >> places on the drive. >> >> "Booting" is of course short for "bootstrapping", which is a >> multi-hundred year old term for a obviously ridiculously impossible >> task: "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps". >> I had always thought that that derived from Baron Von Munchausen, >> but a little research turns up that the baron had lifted himself >> and his horse out of the swamp by his pigtail, not his bootstraps. >> It wasn't until early 1800s that "bootstrapping" became the iconic example. >> >> The reason that IPL is called "booting" is because it is such an >> obviously ridiculously impossible task. >> "You can't use the operating system to load the operating system." >> >> Obviously it is simplest if somebody (or machine) outside, loads >> the code into memory, and then triggers a GOTO. >> Which is cheaper, or more reliable, a "trained" operator, or a >> smaller external machine? >> >> The really clever way, though, was to toggle in, or have a little ROM, >> to load a TINY bit of stored code ("boot sector") into RAM, GOTO it, >> and it could contain enough code to load a bigger chunk, which could >> have plenty of code to load the rest. >> >> >> Why not just put the OS in ROM? >> That would require more ROM, would make bug-fixes more difficult, >> and would make it more difficult to modify the OS to add new >> features, such as security holes. >> >> >> >> -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 6 13:46:13 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 13:46:13 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Pertec Tape Controller In-Reply-To: <55C38914.5060304@sydex.com> References: <55C37D98.5080609@charter.net> <55C37EDD.5030500@bitsavers.org> <55C38914.5060304@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C3AB75.8060308@charter.net> I would love to see that Verilog, as I have a Digilent Nexys2 (Xilinx Spartan 3E) and a Pertec drive I could play with. On 8/6/2015 11:19 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/06/2015 08:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Formatted Pertec is a fairly simple interface. Chuck has talked in >> the past of designing one, and some of the gotchas with the >> interface. >> >> Qualstar built two different styles of Pertec-SCSI adapter for the >> 1054. I'll see about putting board pics and rom dumps up, but as has >> been discussed, SCSI has problems when talking to tapes. >> >> I think Pertec - Ethernet is the way to go, and not mess around with >> SCSI or USB. > > I've got the Verilog for an XC95128 CPLD checked out--and have tested > the programming on one in a testbed lashup. The interface is basically > "wishbone", via a single 8-bit port and 3 address lines. All of the > detail, such as parity generation, error latching, etc. is handled by > the CPLD. Done that way mostly to create a generic interface without a > lot of SSI packages. I can talk to it directly from a PC parallel port. > > Rolling your own is easy. The interface is basically unidirectional > open-collector. You could probably do it, if you weren't too fussy, > with an 8255 or two. > > For me, that "last mile" is a bit of a problem. > > Is the goal simply to grab all the data from a tape and save it? Then > an interface to, say, an SD Card is both cheap and affords plenty of > space. Or is something wanted that gives immediate control over the > tape drive--that is, something like SCSI? USB and Ethernet are both > attractive, but you'll have to work out the host-side driver software. > > Does anyone still *write* tapes any more, save for the occasional > copying task? > > Lots of questions with no clear answers. > > --Chuck > > > From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 14:03:37 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 13:03:37 -0600 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C37CFE.2000107@charter.net> References: <55C37CFE.2000107@charter.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > The PDP-10 had a PDP-11 console processor. The early PDP-10 models used the KA10 and KI10 CPUs, which did not have any separate processor for console/boot/diagnostics. It was common, however, to have a PDP-8 based communication subsystem, such as the 680 or 680I. The later models, using the KL10 and KS10 main CPUs, had console processors. The KL10 used a PDP-11/40 console processor, which had special access to the KL10 diagnostic data paths, and an RH11 Massbus adapter to a dual-port of one of the RP06 drives. In a DECsystem-10, it also had DECtape or floppy, and only handled boot, diagnostics, and the console terminal (usually an LA36 DECwriter). In a DECSYSTEM-20, it had floppy, and also handled additional terminals and unit-record equipment. KL10-based DECsystem-10 configurations and larger KL10-based DECsystem20 configurations tended to have additional PDP-11 communication processors; all but the smallest KL10 CPU configurations could support up to four DTE20 (DEC Ten to Eleven) Unibuses, one of which was for the PDP-11/40 console processor. The KS10 used an 8080-based console subsystem for the same purposes. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 6 14:05:26 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 12:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C39C55.3090902@shiresoft.com> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> <55C39C55.3090902@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > In many cases more than one! ;-) > > But more to the point, having a separate processor handing the booting chores > frees the > main CPU from those tasks. Initialization can be a pain just look at the x86 > ISA and the > hoops it makes the S/W (BIOS & OS) just to get to the point where the OS can > really start > it's own initialization! And that doesn't even cover the "magic" that goes > on just so that > the x86 CPU can fetch the first instruction. > > As folks have mentioned, a lot of larg(er) system have service processors to > handle the > booting chores. However, it's more than that. The service processor (as the > name > implies) is doing a whole lot more than just booting. It is also responsible > for running > low level diagnostics and capturing the results of hard crashes for later > diagnosis. > Thanks for the info Guy (and others!). The biggest machine I ever owed was a VAX 8250 that I got straight out of the machine room at Mannesmann-Tally in Kent, WA. Fun machine, but made my upstairs floor sag noticeably(sp). It had four RA-81s and a TU-81+. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 6 14:07:04 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 12:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Acch. All this modern/complicated stuff. Once you powered on an IBM > 1410 (2 seconds), you could have it (141O O/S: 1410-PR-155) running in > as little as a minute, counting the tape drive mount: > Mount tape on unit 0 [30 seconds tops, as tape is probably already there] > Storage Scan to +1 > Sense switches to a blank character > [The above two were normally left that way] > Mode switch to CE > Computer Reset > Start > 00000 [This clears storage] > Computer Reset > Move Mode Switch to Display > Start > 00000 [Display before altering] > Press margin release on console typewriter while it types out "bbbbb" > Computer Reset > Move Mode Switch to Alter > 00000 > A(WM)L%B000012$(WM)N [Read tape to end of core/record to loc 12] > Computer Reset > Start > [Wait about 10 seconds for 1410-PR-155 to load] > :) Obviously it is simplest if somebody (or machine) outside, loads the code into memory, and then triggers a GOTO. Which is cheaper, or more reliable, a "trained" operator, or a smaller external machine? Your expertise is the simplest and most reliable way to do it. But, if adequately appreciated, you are probably no longer the cheapest. So, they tried to replace you with a machine. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 14:11:25 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 13:11:25 -0600 Subject: Unidentified chip -- Spoiler for HP 1260-0339 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 10:22 AM, tony duell wrote: > Amazingly there is nothing inside that 16pin DIL package. No silicon chip, no thick-film resistor > network, nothing. It is just a package with the pins. Are you sure? They might have gotten a really good deal on house-marked Signetics 25120 chips, with not all of the address lines bonded out. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 6 14:12:35 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 19:12:35 +0000 Subject: Unidentified chip -- Spoiler for HP 1260-0339 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > Amazingly there is nothing inside that 16pin DIL package. No silicon chip, no thick-film resistor > > network, nothing. It is just a package with the pins. > > Are you sure? They might have gotten a really good deal on Well, I've not x-rayed one, but I could detect no conductivity or diode junctons between the pins. > house-marked Signetics 25120 chips, with not all of the address lines > bonded out. I've wondered why there wasn't a self-addressing serial version of the 25120, for First In Never Out stores. That would fit in a 16 pin package I think. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 6 14:17:58 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 12:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unidentified chip -- Spoiler for HP 1260-0339 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Eric Smith wrote: > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 10:22 AM, tony duell wrote: >> Amazingly there is nothing inside that 16pin DIL package. No silicon chip, no thick-film resistor >> network, nothing. It is just a package with the pins. > > Are you sure? They might have gotten a really good deal on > house-marked Signetics 25120 chips, with not all of the address lines > bonded out. It could also be a chip used to test an auto-insertion machine or wave solder machine. If memory serves, they'll use correctly pinned but "fake" parts to test those processes before moving to the more expensive real thing. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 14:25:45 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 15:25:45 -0400 Subject: Unidentified chip -- Spoiler for HP 1260-0339 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > It could also be a chip used to test an auto-insertion machine or wave > solder machine. If memory serves, they'll use correctly pinned but "fake" > parts to test those processes before moving to the more expensive real > thing. Yes, there were a few companies that made dummy chips for exactly that reason. These days, the robots are much better, so I doubt the practice of using dummy chips still exists. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 14:27:39 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 15:27:39 -0400 Subject: Unidentified chip -- Spoiler for HP 1260-0339 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Yes, there were a few companies that made dummy chips for exactly that > reason. These days, the robots are much better, so I doubt the > practice of using dummy chips still exists. And come to think of it, I bet those dummy chips were used for training people to hand stuff boards as well. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 6 14:29:27 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 12:29:27 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C3AAE5.4040908@shiresoft.com> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> <55C39C55.3090902@shiresoft.com> <55C3AAE5.4040908@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <55C3B597.3010402@sydex.com> Another reason for an attached service processor is to handle twiddling of things that the main machine shouldn't have access to. Reconfiguring memory, adjusting operating margins, monitoring water temperature, getting hold of detailed status information, etc. In at least one case, I'm aware of a machine where the MCU could reconfigure memory so that the CPU could continue running while the MCU ran diagnostics on the invisible (to the CPU) memory. Other than somewhat degraded memory size, the CPU was none the wiser. Some CDC MCUs employed a drum for its own program as well as for storing microcode--and had its own (separate) display console. --Chuck From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 14:46:35 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 14:46:35 -0500 Subject: Unidentified chip -- Spoiler for HP 1260-0339 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 6, 2015 3:26 PM, "William Donzelli" wrote: > > Yes, there were a few companies that made dummy chips for exactly that > reason. These days, the robots are much better, so I doubt the > practice of using dummy chips still exists. > I've got tubes of them if anyone's interested. Not that anyone on this list would need practicing, but maybe your robots do. Kyle From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 6 16:00:14 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 16:00:14 -0500 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C3AAEE.30005@update.uu.se> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3AAEE.30005@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55C3CADE.4010906@charter.net> I should think that a set of manually entered bootstrap instructions (i.e., not on a diode ROM board) would take considerably longer than 5s. ;) On 8/6/2015 1:43 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > PDP-8 with OS/8 on an RK05. From power up until booted and ready was > basically the time for the disk to spin up, which was about 10 seconds. > The actual booting of the system is about 0.3 seconds. Add 5 seconds if > you had to manually enter the bootstrap. > > Johnny > > On 2015-08-06 20:43, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> Acch. All this modern/complicated stuff. Once you powered on an IBM >> 1410 (2 seconds), you could have it (141O O/S: 1410-PR-155) running in >> as little as a minute, counting the tape drive mount: >> >> Mount tape on unit 0 [30 seconds tops, as tape is probably already there] >> Storage Scan to +1 >> Sense switches to a blank character >> [The above two were normally left that way] >> Mode switch to CE >> Computer Reset >> Start >> 00000 [This clears storage] >> Computer Reset >> Move Mode Switch to Display >> Start >> 00000 [Display before altering] >> Press margin release on console typewriter while it types out "bbbbb" >> Computer Reset >> Move Mode Switch to Alter >> 00000 >> A(WM)L%B000012$(WM)N [Read tape to end of core/record to loc 12] >> Computer Reset >> Start >> [Wait about 10 seconds for 1410-PR-155 to load] >> >> :) >> >> >> >> On 8/6/2015 1:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> Wow. I'll never complain again that it takes too long to boot >>>>> Windows... >>> >>> On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, geneb wrote: >>>> One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? >>>> Why would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to >>>> boot it? >>> >>> "Why CAN'T the operating system have full functionality during booting?" >>> I had an interesting conversation almost 30 years ago with a published >>> expert on operating systemes and C programming, when he was bothered by >>> why IO.SYS/IBMBIO.COM and DOS.SYS/IBMDOS.COM had to be in specific >>> places on the drive. >>> >>> "Booting" is of course short for "bootstrapping", which is a >>> multi-hundred year old term for a obviously ridiculously impossible >>> task: "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps". >>> I had always thought that that derived from Baron Von Munchausen, >>> but a little research turns up that the baron had lifted himself >>> and his horse out of the swamp by his pigtail, not his bootstraps. >>> It wasn't until early 1800s that "bootstrapping" became the iconic >>> example. >>> >>> The reason that IPL is called "booting" is because it is such an >>> obviously ridiculously impossible task. >>> "You can't use the operating system to load the operating system." >>> >>> Obviously it is simplest if somebody (or machine) outside, loads >>> the code into memory, and then triggers a GOTO. >>> Which is cheaper, or more reliable, a "trained" operator, or a >>> smaller external machine? >>> >>> The really clever way, though, was to toggle in, or have a little ROM, >>> to load a TINY bit of stored code ("boot sector") into RAM, GOTO it, >>> and it could contain enough code to load a bigger chunk, which could >>> have plenty of code to load the rest. >>> >>> >>> Why not just put the OS in ROM? >>> That would require more ROM, would make bug-fixes more difficult, >>> and would make it more difficult to modify the OS to add new >>> features, such as security holes. >>> >>> >>> >>> > > From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 6 16:01:52 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 16:01:52 -0500 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> Message-ID: <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> Until that console processor fails with no backups. I seem to recall having 4 or 5 "backups" (aka operators). ;) On 8/6/2015 2:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> Acch. All this modern/complicated stuff. Once you powered on an IBM >> 1410 (2 seconds), you could have it (141O O/S: 1410-PR-155) running in >> as little as a minute, counting the tape drive mount: >> Mount tape on unit 0 [30 seconds tops, as tape is probably already there] >> Storage Scan to +1 >> Sense switches to a blank character >> [The above two were normally left that way] >> Mode switch to CE >> Computer Reset >> Start >> 00000 [This clears storage] >> Computer Reset >> Move Mode Switch to Display >> Start >> 00000 [Display before altering] >> Press margin release on console typewriter while it types out "bbbbb" >> Computer Reset >> Move Mode Switch to Alter >> 00000 >> A(WM)L%B000012$(WM)N [Read tape to end of core/record to loc 12] >> Computer Reset >> Start >> [Wait about 10 seconds for 1410-PR-155 to load] >> :) > > Obviously it is simplest if somebody (or machine) outside, loads > the code into memory, and then triggers a GOTO. > Which is cheaper, or more reliable, a "trained" operator, or a > smaller external machine? > > Your expertise is the simplest and most reliable way to do it. > But, if adequately appreciated, you are probably no longer the cheapest. > So, they tried to replace you with a machine. > > > > > From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Aug 6 16:03:08 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 23:03:08 +0200 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C3CADE.4010906@charter.net> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3AAEE.30005@update.uu.se> <55C3CADE.4010906@charter.net> Message-ID: <55C3CB8C.4050803@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-06 23:00, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I should think that a set of manually entered bootstrap instructions > (i.e., not on a diode ROM board) would take considerably longer than 5s. ;) You might think so. But when you see the bootstrap for the RK05 on a PDP-8, you realize that it takes about 5s to toggle it in and run it. It's only two 12-bit words that you need to write after all... In short: 0030 LOAD ADDRESS 6743 DEP 5031 DEP 0030 LOAD ADDDRESS START When you've done it a few times, you get fairly proficient at it, and it's not hard to remember... Even faster on a PDP-8/A which have a numeric keypad frontpanel. Johnny > > On 8/6/2015 1:43 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> PDP-8 with OS/8 on an RK05. From power up until booted and ready was >> basically the time for the disk to spin up, which was about 10 seconds. >> The actual booting of the system is about 0.3 seconds. Add 5 seconds if >> you had to manually enter the bootstrap. >> >> Johnny >> >> On 2015-08-06 20:43, Jay Jaeger wrote: >>> Acch. All this modern/complicated stuff. Once you powered on an IBM >>> 1410 (2 seconds), you could have it (141O O/S: 1410-PR-155) running in >>> as little as a minute, counting the tape drive mount: >>> >>> Mount tape on unit 0 [30 seconds tops, as tape is probably already there] >>> Storage Scan to +1 >>> Sense switches to a blank character >>> [The above two were normally left that way] >>> Mode switch to CE >>> Computer Reset >>> Start >>> 00000 [This clears storage] >>> Computer Reset >>> Move Mode Switch to Display >>> Start >>> 00000 [Display before altering] >>> Press margin release on console typewriter while it types out "bbbbb" >>> Computer Reset >>> Move Mode Switch to Alter >>> 00000 >>> A(WM)L%B000012$(WM)N [Read tape to end of core/record to loc 12] >>> Computer Reset >>> Start >>> [Wait about 10 seconds for 1410-PR-155 to load] >>> >>> :) >>> >>> >>> >>> On 8/6/2015 1:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>>> Wow. I'll never complain again that it takes too long to boot >>>>>> Windows... >>>> >>>> On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, geneb wrote: >>>>> One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? >>>>> Why would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to >>>>> boot it? >>>> >>>> "Why CAN'T the operating system have full functionality during booting?" >>>> I had an interesting conversation almost 30 years ago with a published >>>> expert on operating systemes and C programming, when he was bothered by >>>> why IO.SYS/IBMBIO.COM and DOS.SYS/IBMDOS.COM had to be in specific >>>> places on the drive. >>>> >>>> "Booting" is of course short for "bootstrapping", which is a >>>> multi-hundred year old term for a obviously ridiculously impossible >>>> task: "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps". >>>> I had always thought that that derived from Baron Von Munchausen, >>>> but a little research turns up that the baron had lifted himself >>>> and his horse out of the swamp by his pigtail, not his bootstraps. >>>> It wasn't until early 1800s that "bootstrapping" became the iconic >>>> example. >>>> >>>> The reason that IPL is called "booting" is because it is such an >>>> obviously ridiculously impossible task. >>>> "You can't use the operating system to load the operating system." >>>> >>>> Obviously it is simplest if somebody (or machine) outside, loads >>>> the code into memory, and then triggers a GOTO. >>>> Which is cheaper, or more reliable, a "trained" operator, or a >>>> smaller external machine? >>>> >>>> The really clever way, though, was to toggle in, or have a little ROM, >>>> to load a TINY bit of stored code ("boot sector") into RAM, GOTO it, >>>> and it could contain enough code to load a bigger chunk, which could >>>> have plenty of code to load the rest. >>>> >>>> >>>> Why not just put the OS in ROM? >>>> That would require more ROM, would make bug-fixes more difficult, >>>> and would make it more difficult to modify the OS to add new >>>> features, such as security holes. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 6 16:17:50 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 16:17:50 -0500 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C3CB8C.4050803@update.uu.se> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3AAEE.30005@update.uu.se> <55C3CADE.4010906@charter.net> <55C3CB8C.4050803@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55C3CEFE.8040309@charter.net> I see - I would have guessed quite a few more instructions than that, based on my PDP-11 experience (my 8/L has only paper tape). The PDP-12, which I have more experience at, takes about the same amount of effort/time, but just the one I/O instruction in the switch register (but then you have to enter the start address, and start the machine). On 8/6/2015 4:03 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-06 23:00, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> I should think that a set of manually entered bootstrap instructions >> (i.e., not on a diode ROM board) would take considerably longer than >> 5s. ;) > > You might think so. But when you see the bootstrap for the RK05 on a > PDP-8, you realize that it takes about 5s to toggle it in and run it. > > It's only two 12-bit words that you need to write after all... > > In short: > 0030 LOAD ADDRESS > 6743 DEP > 5031 DEP > 0030 LOAD ADDDRESS > START > > When you've done it a few times, you get fairly proficient at it, and > it's not hard to remember... Even faster on a PDP-8/A which have a > numeric keypad frontpanel. > > Johnny > >> >> On 8/6/2015 1:43 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> PDP-8 with OS/8 on an RK05. From power up until booted and ready was >>> basically the time for the disk to spin up, which was about 10 seconds. >>> The actual booting of the system is about 0.3 seconds. Add 5 seconds if >>> you had to manually enter the bootstrap. >>> >>> Johnny >>> >>> On 2015-08-06 20:43, Jay Jaeger wrote: >>>> Acch. All this modern/complicated stuff. Once you powered on an IBM >>>> 1410 (2 seconds), you could have it (141O O/S: 1410-PR-155) running in >>>> as little as a minute, counting the tape drive mount: >>>> >>>> Mount tape on unit 0 [30 seconds tops, as tape is probably already >>>> there] >>>> Storage Scan to +1 >>>> Sense switches to a blank character >>>> [The above two were normally left that way] >>>> Mode switch to CE >>>> Computer Reset >>>> Start >>>> 00000 [This clears storage] >>>> Computer Reset >>>> Move Mode Switch to Display >>>> Start >>>> 00000 [Display before altering] >>>> Press margin release on console typewriter while it types out "bbbbb" >>>> Computer Reset >>>> Move Mode Switch to Alter >>>> 00000 >>>> A(WM)L%B000012$(WM)N [Read tape to end of core/record to loc 12] >>>> Computer Reset >>>> Start >>>> [Wait about 10 seconds for 1410-PR-155 to load] >>>> >>>> :) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8/6/2015 1:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>>>> Wow. I'll never complain again that it takes too long to boot >>>>>>> Windows... >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, geneb wrote: >>>>>> One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? >>>>>> Why would IBM design a computer that required another computer >>>>>> just to >>>>>> boot it? >>>>> >>>>> "Why CAN'T the operating system have full functionality during >>>>> booting?" >>>>> I had an interesting conversation almost 30 years ago with a published >>>>> expert on operating systemes and C programming, when he was >>>>> bothered by >>>>> why IO.SYS/IBMBIO.COM and DOS.SYS/IBMDOS.COM had to be in specific >>>>> places on the drive. >>>>> >>>>> "Booting" is of course short for "bootstrapping", which is a >>>>> multi-hundred year old term for a obviously ridiculously impossible >>>>> task: "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps". >>>>> I had always thought that that derived from Baron Von Munchausen, >>>>> but a little research turns up that the baron had lifted himself >>>>> and his horse out of the swamp by his pigtail, not his bootstraps. >>>>> It wasn't until early 1800s that "bootstrapping" became the iconic >>>>> example. >>>>> >>>>> The reason that IPL is called "booting" is because it is such an >>>>> obviously ridiculously impossible task. >>>>> "You can't use the operating system to load the operating system." >>>>> >>>>> Obviously it is simplest if somebody (or machine) outside, loads >>>>> the code into memory, and then triggers a GOTO. >>>>> Which is cheaper, or more reliable, a "trained" operator, or a >>>>> smaller external machine? >>>>> >>>>> The really clever way, though, was to toggle in, or have a little ROM, >>>>> to load a TINY bit of stored code ("boot sector") into RAM, GOTO it, >>>>> and it could contain enough code to load a bigger chunk, which could >>>>> have plenty of code to load the rest. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Why not just put the OS in ROM? >>>>> That would require more ROM, would make bug-fixes more difficult, >>>>> and would make it more difficult to modify the OS to add new >>>>> features, such as security holes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 6 16:38:59 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 14:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Until that console processor fails with no backups. I seem to recall > having 4 or 5 "backups" (aka operators). ;) Your expertise is the simplest and most reliable way to do it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 6 17:00:26 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 15:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unidentified chip -- Spoiler for HP 1260-0339 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pin-out? Data sheet? From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 17:16:58 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 17:16:58 -0500 Subject: Unidentified chip -- Spoiler for HP 1260-0339 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 6, 2015 6:00 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > > Pin-out? > > Data sheet? > I'll dig them out when I'm home again in a couple of weeks. I saved them from the trash, figuring they could at least be used for art projects. I'll let them go for the cost of shipping. Kyle From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Aug 6 17:46:00 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 18:46:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C3CADE.4010906@charter.net> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3AAEE.30005@update.uu.se> <55C3CADE.4010906@charter.net> Message-ID: <201508062246.SAA02138@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I should think that a set of manually entered bootstrap instructions > (i.e., not on a diode ROM board) would take considerably longer than > 5s. ;) I feel fairly sure you overestimate either the length of the bootstrap or the per-word time required. I once used an HP machine with a front-panel-buttons bootstrap. It was only some four or five words long, and after entering it a few dozen times I feel reasonably sure I could enter it from muscle memory in well under a second per. (Weasel words are because this was in the late '70s and the memory is now rather fuzzy.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Aug 6 18:04:37 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 23:04:37 +0000 Subject: SNA was RE: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <02d401d0d075$4a5945e0$df0bd1a0$@gmail.com> References: <02d401d0d075$4a5945e0$df0bd1a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBAE5D5@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Dave G4UGM Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2015 11:26 AM > Excuse me if this isn't Exactly right, but I seem to recall some on > in IBM saying that Thomas Watson Jr got a phone call one day. It > went... > TWJ: Thomas Watson here > CLR: Is that Thomas Watson Jnr. > TWJ: Yes > CLR: and you are the head of IBM > TWJ: Yes > CLR and you first name is Thomas > TWJ: yes > CLR: and you are the head of IBM > TWJ: yes > CLE: and you are in your office > TWJ: yes, but what do you want > CLR: Just thought I would show what it is like trying set up and SNA > session. Bye... Not to bring in nasty facts or anything, but Tom Jr. retired from IBM in 1971, after a heart attack. SNA was introduced in 1974. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 18:33:43 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 00:33:43 +0100 Subject: SNA was RE: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBAE5D5@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <02d401d0d075$4a5945e0$df0bd1a0$@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBAE5D5@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <120701d0d0a0$55ee74e0$01cb5ea0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich > Alderson > Sent: 07 August 2015 00:05 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: SNA was RE: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System > > From: Dave G4UGM > Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2015 11:26 AM > > > Excuse me if this isn't Exactly right, but I seem to recall some on in > > IBM saying that Thomas Watson Jr got a phone call one day. It went... > > > TWJ: Thomas Watson here > > CLR: Is that Thomas Watson Jnr. > > TWJ: Yes > > CLR: and you are the head of IBM > > TWJ: Yes > > CLR and you first name is Thomas > > TWJ: yes > > CLR: and you are the head of IBM > > TWJ: yes > > CLE: and you are in your office > > TWJ: yes, but what do you want > > CLR: Just thought I would show what it is like trying set up and SNA > > session. Bye... > > Not to bring in nasty facts or anything, but Tom Jr. retired from IBM in 1971, > after a heart attack. > > SNA was introduced in 1974. So who was in charge in 1974.... > > Rich > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Aug 6 19:10:36 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 19:10:36 -0500 Subject: Unidentified chip -- Spoiler for HP 1260-0339 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C3F77C.1000602@pico-systems.com> On 08/06/2015 02:25 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> It could also be a chip used to test an auto-insertion machine or wave >> solder machine. If memory serves, they'll use correctly pinned but "fake" >> parts to test those processes before moving to the more expensive real >> thing. > Yes, there were a few companies that made dummy chips for exactly that > reason. These days, the robots are much better, so I doubt the > practice of using dummy chips still exists. > > They definitely still exist. I doubt many people use them for P&P testing, except maybe the people who MAKE the P&P machines. But, larger outfits do extensive thermal profiles, cross-section microscopic examinations of solder joints and all sorts of exhaustive tests on soldering and other parts of the process. They use the dummy chips for testing the quality of these processes. They may run 25 boards with different thermal profiles to find out what gives the best soldering results. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Aug 6 19:13:52 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 19:13:52 -0500 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> Message-ID: <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> On 08/06/2015 04:01 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Until that console processor fails with no backups. I seem to recall > having 4 or 5 "backups" (aka operators). ;) > > Well, the idea is that the console or diagnostic processor is WAY simpler than the mainframe CPU. So, if the console computer dies, you can troubleshoot it and be sure it is running in just a few minutes, and then get on to the real problem. The VAX 11/780 had an LSI-11 with a floppy controller and an interface board to the VAX, so I think it was down to 3 boards or something. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 6 19:35:26 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 17:35:26 -0700 Subject: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> On the subject of slow booting, perhaps someone can help me with a very annoying case of the slowboots. I've got a dual slot-1 P3 system here--a Supermicro P6DGE, which uses a 440GX chipset and 2GB of registered SDRAM with two 900MHz CPUs. When it finally get around to s booting, it's a great workhorse, with 2, count'em 2 well-behaved ISA slots. It's frisky enough to run Windows 7 and proudly proclaims that it was made in the USA. The problem is, that even with the "Fast boot" BIOS setting, it takes well over a minute to get to the point where it tries to boot. Does anyone have a clue on why it's so slow? Even getting the POST down to 15-20 seconds would be wonderful. --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 6 20:22:48 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 20:22:48 -0500 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55C40868.2020504@charter.net> Four, I expect: CPU, Memory, VAX Interface, Floppy Controller. I have one in pieces floating around here somewhere. One of those puppies (probably the one I have) held our VAX hostage for DAYS while the service folks from the OEM (Intergraph) tried to figure out what was wrong - they kept blaming the console processor which was not the problem. Turned out to be a recently added power supply - which I had pointed out to them was something that changed, and something we could do without as a test. Sigh. On 8/6/2015 7:13 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 08/06/2015 04:01 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> Until that console processor fails with no backups. I seem to recall >> having 4 or 5 "backups" (aka operators). ;) >> >> > Well, the idea is that the console or diagnostic processor is WAY > simpler than the mainframe CPU. So, if the console computer dies, you > can troubleshoot it and be sure it is running in just a few minutes, and > then get on to the real problem. > > The VAX 11/780 had an LSI-11 with a floppy controller and an interface > board to the VAX, so I think it was down to 3 boards or something. > > Jon > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 6 20:21:16 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 18:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The problem is, that even with the "Fast boot" BIOS setting, it takes well > over a minute to get to the point where it tries to boot. > Does anyone have a clue on why it's so slow? Even getting the POST down to > 15-20 seconds would be wonderful. Slow boot can be really annoying. Especially when there aren't adequate indications that it IS making progress towards it. I was very pleased in booting MS-DOS when BIOS's starting counting off the memory being tested. (Remember when that change was?) It's usually JUST an annoyance. But what about the cumulative totals? If you were to take the boot time, of all the copies, and all the users, and add it up, then divide by median lifetime, . . . How many LIVES have been wasted by it? That doesn't make it a mass-murderer, does it? From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 6 20:24:17 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 20:24:17 -0500 Subject: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C408C1.6000909@charter.net> Aside from memory tests, in my experience, sometimes slowness can be caused by a disk controller ROM (often on a SCSI controller) that gets invoked during the POST that slows things down - particularly if it also enumerates what is on the SCSI bus. On 8/6/2015 7:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On the subject of slow booting, perhaps someone can help me with a very > annoying case of the slowboots. > > I've got a dual slot-1 P3 system here--a Supermicro P6DGE, which uses a > 440GX chipset and 2GB of registered SDRAM with two 900MHz CPUs. When it > finally get around to s booting, it's a great workhorse, with 2, > count'em 2 well-behaved ISA slots. It's frisky enough to run Windows 7 > and proudly proclaims that it was made in the USA. > > The problem is, that even with the "Fast boot" BIOS setting, it takes > well over a minute to get to the point where it tries to boot. > > Does anyone have a clue on why it's so slow? Even getting the POST down > to 15-20 seconds would be wonderful. > > --Chuck > > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 21:11:01 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 14:11:01 +1200 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C3AAE5.4040908@shiresoft.com> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> <55C39C55.3090902@shiresoft.com> <55C3AAE5.4040908@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: If you want to see how it works on bigger iron, here's a rare beast indeed: my Application Starterpak 3000 - internal IBM codename 'Warthog'. A real S/390 in a half-height chassis. First video is a power-up; let it play to the end and it segues into the next video, IPLing the beast! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytMgyrZm87A Cheers Mike On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:43 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > On 8/6/15 11:05 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: >> >> On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> >>> Back to the MP 3000. There are a number of CPUs in the box. Two are the >>> most >>> obvious: the SBC running OS/2 and the actual S/390 CPU. However, there >>> is >>> another >>> S/390 CPU in the box as well. It is not visible (at least directly) to >>> S/W. >>> It is responsible >>> for providing the high performance I/O capabilities (like native disk >>> access >>> and making >>> them appear as conventional channel attached devices instead of RAID-5 >>> SSA >>> drives). >>> The OS/2 SBC is there to emulate some of the slower devices (card >>> reader/punch, >>> direct attached 3270s, etc). >> >> So the OS/2 computer is actually a component of the mainframe's >> control processor, not a separate PC? > > In various other S/390 and z/Series machines, there is a laptop that is the > "service element" with > special S/W (now I think on Linux). On the MP3000, it is a single board > computer that is on what > looks like a big PCI card. By it's nature it is hooked into various parts > of the MP3000 system through > the various other things that sit on the PCI bus. Note that the PCI bus is > shared between the SBC > and the other parts of the MP3000. > > If you don't fire up the system element software the OS/2 system would > appear as a somewhat > "normal" PC with a bunch of special device drivers. > > There's a great diagram (too complicated to reproduce in ASCII art) that > illustrates all of the major > components in the MP3000. It's located in the IBM Redbook "Multiprise 3000 > Technical Introduction". > It's Figure 1 on page 8 of the redbook. This is a really great introduction > on the MP3000. > > TTFN - Guy > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 6 22:02:23 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 20:02:23 -0700 Subject: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C408C1.6000909@charter.net> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> <55C408C1.6000909@charter.net> Message-ID: <55C41FBF.80606@sydex.com> On 08/06/2015 06:24 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Aside from memory tests, in my experience, sometimes slowness can be > caused by a disk controller ROM (often on a SCSI controller) that > gets invoked during the POST that slows things down - particularly if > it also enumerates what is on the SCSI bus. Nope, same-oh, same-oh right down to a configuration with nothing more than a single IDE drive and a video card. The diagnosis of 2GB memory is immediate and then the thing just sits for a minute or more before finally showing the configuration (attached drives, etc.) --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Aug 6 22:08:20 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 20:08:20 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> <55C39C55.3090902@shiresoft.com> <55C3AAE5.4040908@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <55C42124.6060001@shiresoft.com> Is it really "bigger" than the MP3000 or is just a repackaged MP2000 where there is no emulated I/O? My MP3000 in addition to 2 72GB Raid-5 arrays has 2 ethernet interfaces, 2 parallel channel attach points and 2 ESCON channel attach points. I'm also jealous that you have a 3279 terminal. I've been looking for 3278s and/or 3279s and haven't found any (except for the ridiculously priced 3278 on ebay right now). TTFN - Guy On 8/6/15 7:11 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > If you want to see how it works on bigger iron, here's a rare beast > indeed: my Application Starterpak 3000 - internal IBM codename > 'Warthog'. A real S/390 in a half-height chassis. First video is a > power-up; let it play to the end and it segues into the next video, > IPLing the beast! > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytMgyrZm87A > > Cheers > > Mike > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:43 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >> On 8/6/15 11:05 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: >>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>> Back to the MP 3000. There are a number of CPUs in the box. Two are the >>>> most >>>> obvious: the SBC running OS/2 and the actual S/390 CPU. However, there >>>> is >>>> another >>>> S/390 CPU in the box as well. It is not visible (at least directly) to >>>> S/W. >>>> It is responsible >>>> for providing the high performance I/O capabilities (like native disk >>>> access >>>> and making >>>> them appear as conventional channel attached devices instead of RAID-5 >>>> SSA >>>> drives). >>>> The OS/2 SBC is there to emulate some of the slower devices (card >>>> reader/punch, >>>> direct attached 3270s, etc). >>> So the OS/2 computer is actually a component of the mainframe's >>> control processor, not a separate PC? >> In various other S/390 and z/Series machines, there is a laptop that is the >> "service element" with >> special S/W (now I think on Linux). On the MP3000, it is a single board >> computer that is on what >> looks like a big PCI card. By it's nature it is hooked into various parts >> of the MP3000 system through >> the various other things that sit on the PCI bus. Note that the PCI bus is >> shared between the SBC >> and the other parts of the MP3000. >> >> If you don't fire up the system element software the OS/2 system would >> appear as a somewhat >> "normal" PC with a bunch of special device drivers. >> >> There's a great diagram (too complicated to reproduce in ASCII art) that >> illustrates all of the major >> components in the MP3000. It's located in the IBM Redbook "Multiprise 3000 >> Technical Introduction". >> It's Figure 1 on page 8 of the redbook. This is a really great introduction >> on the MP3000. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> > > From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 22:20:29 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 23:20:29 -0400 Subject: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C41FBF.80606@sydex.com> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> <55C408C1.6000909@charter.net> <55C41FBF.80606@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55c42403.6684320a.2549.7505@mx.google.com> You might check whether the BIOS config is set to autodetect drives at startup; in many BIOSes each IDE channel can be set to Auto/None or a specific config. Try setting all installed drives to a specific configuration, and any unused channels to None. Autodetection can sometimes take a long time. I also find that detection of cd/dvd drives is sometimes very slow... (apologies for top-posting, responding on my phone which has a primitive editor...) - Josh -----Original Message----- From: "Chuck Guzis" Sent: ?8/?6/?2015 11:02 PM To: "General at classiccmp.org" ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System On 08/06/2015 06:24 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Aside from memory tests, in my experience, sometimes slowness can be > caused by a disk controller ROM (often on a SCSI controller) that > gets invoked during the POST that slows things down - particularly if > it also enumerates what is on the SCSI bus. Nope, same-oh, same-oh right down to a configuration with nothing more than a single IDE drive and a video card. The diagnosis of 2GB memory is immediate and then the thing just sits for a minute or more before finally showing the configuration (attached drives, etc.) --Chuck From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 22:46:16 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 15:46:16 +1200 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C42124.6060001@shiresoft.com> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> <55C39C55.3090902@shiresoft.com> <55C3AAE5.4040908@shiresoft.com> <55C42124.6060001@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Oh it's much bigger. Somewhere I have a photo of them side by side... ah yes: http://www.corestore.org/ASP3000-IS390.jpg That's the Warthog next to an Integrated Server 3006 - which uses the same chassis as the MP3K. So it's both - it's a repackaged MP2000, *and* it's much bigger than an MP3K! Also much much heavier; built out of Real Mainframe gauge steel :-) I'm jealous that you have an operational MP3K!!! I've sweated blood over mine for weeks, to no avail. If it works, it works for ever. If it doesn't work, and it isn't a simple hardware fix, it needs an IBM CE with a bunch of super secret software tools to tickle it into life, it seems... Mike On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:08 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Is it really "bigger" than the MP3000 or is just a repackaged MP2000 where > there > is no emulated I/O? > > My MP3000 in addition to 2 72GB Raid-5 arrays has 2 ethernet interfaces, 2 > parallel channel > attach points and 2 ESCON channel attach points. > > I'm also jealous that you have a 3279 terminal. I've been looking for 3278s > and/or 3279s > and haven't found any (except for the ridiculously priced 3278 on ebay right > now). > > TTFN - Guy > > > On 8/6/15 7:11 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> If you want to see how it works on bigger iron, here's a rare beast >> indeed: my Application Starterpak 3000 - internal IBM codename >> 'Warthog'. A real S/390 in a half-height chassis. First video is a >> power-up; let it play to the end and it segues into the next video, >> IPLing the beast! >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytMgyrZm87A >> >> Cheers >> >> Mike >> >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:43 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 8/6/15 11:05 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Guy Sotomayor >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Back to the MP 3000. There are a number of CPUs in the box. Two are >>>>> the >>>>> most >>>>> obvious: the SBC running OS/2 and the actual S/390 CPU. However, there >>>>> is >>>>> another >>>>> S/390 CPU in the box as well. It is not visible (at least directly) to >>>>> S/W. >>>>> It is responsible >>>>> for providing the high performance I/O capabilities (like native disk >>>>> access >>>>> and making >>>>> them appear as conventional channel attached devices instead of RAID-5 >>>>> SSA >>>>> drives). >>>>> The OS/2 SBC is there to emulate some of the slower devices (card >>>>> reader/punch, >>>>> direct attached 3270s, etc). >>>> >>>> So the OS/2 computer is actually a component of the mainframe's >>>> control processor, not a separate PC? >>> >>> In various other S/390 and z/Series machines, there is a laptop that is >>> the >>> "service element" with >>> special S/W (now I think on Linux). On the MP3000, it is a single board >>> computer that is on what >>> looks like a big PCI card. By it's nature it is hooked into various >>> parts >>> of the MP3000 system through >>> the various other things that sit on the PCI bus. Note that the PCI bus >>> is >>> shared between the SBC >>> and the other parts of the MP3000. >>> >>> If you don't fire up the system element software the OS/2 system would >>> appear as a somewhat >>> "normal" PC with a bunch of special device drivers. >>> >>> There's a great diagram (too complicated to reproduce in ASCII art) that >>> illustrates all of the major >>> components in the MP3000. It's located in the IBM Redbook "Multiprise >>> 3000 >>> Technical Introduction". >>> It's Figure 1 on page 8 of the redbook. This is a really great >>> introduction >>> on the MP3000. >>> >>> TTFN - Guy >>> >> >> > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From useddec at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 22:47:43 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 22:47:43 -0500 Subject: NOS!!! Compugraphic, (2) Computer Automation Naked Mini, (2)Motorola M-4408 Message-ID: All unused! Please contact me off list if interested. Located in zip 61853 From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Aug 6 22:54:28 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 20:54:28 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> <55C39C55.3090902@shiresoft.com> <55C3AAE5.4040908@shiresoft.com> <55C42124.6060001@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <55C42BF4.2050902@shiresoft.com> Cool! I've toyed with the idea of getting a larger mainframe (zSeries) but the aspect of trying to get and configure storage for it is the main stumbling block. I didn't realize how lucky I was with mine until I started hearing about the horror stories from others. I think what helped was that mine wasn't "molested" before I received it. In addition to arriving in the original IBM shipping crate (really? who keeps that?) it also had all of the "extras" in terms of cables, terminators, etc still unopened. The only thing that I'm missing is some of the software and diagnostics that were supplied on either tape or CD. I *really* have to figure out a backup solution for this so that I don't get stuck but that supposes that I have a way to re-create the OS/2 image that's already there if I do have to do a full from scratch restore. TTFN - Guy On 8/6/15 8:46 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Oh it's much bigger. Somewhere I have a photo of them side by side... ah yes: > > http://www.corestore.org/ASP3000-IS390.jpg > > That's the Warthog next to an Integrated Server 3006 - which uses the > same chassis as the MP3K. So it's both - it's a repackaged MP2000, > *and* it's much bigger than an MP3K! Also much much heavier; built out > of Real Mainframe gauge steel :-) > > I'm jealous that you have an operational MP3K!!! I've sweated blood > over mine for weeks, to no avail. If it works, it works for ever. If > it doesn't work, and it isn't a simple hardware fix, it needs an IBM > CE with a bunch of super secret software tools to tickle it into life, > it seems... > > Mike > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:08 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Is it really "bigger" than the MP3000 or is just a repackaged MP2000 where >> there >> is no emulated I/O? >> >> My MP3000 in addition to 2 72GB Raid-5 arrays has 2 ethernet interfaces, 2 >> parallel channel >> attach points and 2 ESCON channel attach points. >> >> I'm also jealous that you have a 3279 terminal. I've been looking for 3278s >> and/or 3279s >> and haven't found any (except for the ridiculously priced 3278 on ebay right >> now). >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> >> On 8/6/15 7:11 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>> If you want to see how it works on bigger iron, here's a rare beast >>> indeed: my Application Starterpak 3000 - internal IBM codename >>> 'Warthog'. A real S/390 in a half-height chassis. First video is a >>> power-up; let it play to the end and it segues into the next video, >>> IPLing the beast! >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytMgyrZm87A >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:43 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>> >>>> On 8/6/15 11:05 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: >>>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Guy Sotomayor >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Back to the MP 3000. There are a number of CPUs in the box. Two are >>>>>> the >>>>>> most >>>>>> obvious: the SBC running OS/2 and the actual S/390 CPU. However, there >>>>>> is >>>>>> another >>>>>> S/390 CPU in the box as well. It is not visible (at least directly) to >>>>>> S/W. >>>>>> It is responsible >>>>>> for providing the high performance I/O capabilities (like native disk >>>>>> access >>>>>> and making >>>>>> them appear as conventional channel attached devices instead of RAID-5 >>>>>> SSA >>>>>> drives). >>>>>> The OS/2 SBC is there to emulate some of the slower devices (card >>>>>> reader/punch, >>>>>> direct attached 3270s, etc). >>>>> So the OS/2 computer is actually a component of the mainframe's >>>>> control processor, not a separate PC? >>>> In various other S/390 and z/Series machines, there is a laptop that is >>>> the >>>> "service element" with >>>> special S/W (now I think on Linux). On the MP3000, it is a single board >>>> computer that is on what >>>> looks like a big PCI card. By it's nature it is hooked into various >>>> parts >>>> of the MP3000 system through >>>> the various other things that sit on the PCI bus. Note that the PCI bus >>>> is >>>> shared between the SBC >>>> and the other parts of the MP3000. >>>> >>>> If you don't fire up the system element software the OS/2 system would >>>> appear as a somewhat >>>> "normal" PC with a bunch of special device drivers. >>>> >>>> There's a great diagram (too complicated to reproduce in ASCII art) that >>>> illustrates all of the major >>>> components in the MP3000. It's located in the IBM Redbook "Multiprise >>>> 3000 >>>> Technical Introduction". >>>> It's Figure 1 on page 8 of the redbook. This is a really great >>>> introduction >>>> on the MP3000. >>>> >>>> TTFN - Guy >>>> >>> > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 6 22:56:01 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 20:56:01 -0700 Subject: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55c42403.6684320a.2549.7505@mx.google.com> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> <55C408C1.6000909@charter.net> <55C41FBF.80606@sydex.com> <55c42403.6684320a.2549.7505@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <55C42C51.5060907@sydex.com> On 08/06/2015 08:20 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > You might check whether the BIOS config is set to autodetect drives > at startup; in many BIOSes each IDE channel can be set to Auto/None > or a specific config. Try setting all installed drives to a specific > configuration, and any unused channels to None. Autodetection can > sometimes take a long time. I also find that detection of cd/dvd > drives is sometimes very slow... > > (apologies for top-posting, responding on my phone which has a > primitive editor...) I already do that. Note that the "dead time" occurs before getting the message "Inspecting IDE configuration", so I don't think it's that. Network boot is turned off, BTW. --Chuck From scaron at umich.edu Thu Aug 6 14:20:37 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 15:20:37 -0400 Subject: Unidentified chip -- Spoiler for HP 1260-0339 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It doesn't even shunt across; it's just 16 pins in a DIL package "floating"? Strange. If it were a manufacturing test, one wouldn't expect it would show up in production machines? Best, Sean On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 3:17 PM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 6 Aug 2015, Eric Smith wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 10:22 AM, tony duell >> wrote: >> >>> Amazingly there is nothing inside that 16pin DIL package. No silicon >>> chip, no thick-film resistor >>> network, nothing. It is just a package with the pins. >>> >> >> Are you sure? They might have gotten a really good deal on >> house-marked Signetics 25120 chips, with not all of the address lines >> bonded out. >> > > It could also be a chip used to test an auto-insertion machine or wave > solder machine. If memory serves, they'll use correctly pinned but "fake" > parts to test those processes before moving to the more expensive real > thing. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From scaron at umich.edu Thu Aug 6 17:28:13 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 18:28:13 -0400 Subject: Fwd: ROLM CBX 8000 System Service Manual Vol. 2 Scans Released! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cross-post from the Collectors Network list that may be of interest to folks here. If anyone out there happens to have an old copy of Vol. 1 of the CBX 8000 System Service Manual, or might know an old ROLMan (or ROLwoMan) who might have same, I surely would appreciate the opportunity to digitize it! These are eventually going to be submitted to the Telephone Collectors International Library but it's certainly okay to take a copy for Bitsavers as well, if so desired. Best, Sean ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sean Caron Date: Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 6:17 PM Subject: ROLM CBX 8000 System Service Manual Vol. 2 Scans Released! To: Voice Over IP Tandem for Analog Switches , Sean Caron < scaron at umich.edu> Hi all, I finally got around to digitizing the copy of the second volume of the ROLM CBX 8000 System Service Manual that I had received courtesy of Dennis Hock. I've got the scans sitting on my personal site for now until I figure out the process for getting them submitted to the TCI Library. Everyone is welcome to peruse: http://wildflower.diablonet.net/~scaron/pdf/ROLM/ Please note that Comcast has been kind of dodgy at my place recently, so the quality of the connection may fade in and out a little bit. As this document is very large (perhaps around 1,000 pages) the scans were done mostly by machine. I dumped a chapter at a time into a Konica Bizhub 300 series MFP and scanned in double-sided mode at 300 DPI. I've cursorily reviewed them and it looks like the Bizhub did a pretty nice job of scanning ... there's a little bit of white space due to not all pages being double sided, and due to the fold-outs, but all the information is there! Thanks so much, Dennis, for loaning the manual to me and I'm sorry it took me so long to get to it. I'll try to have the original back in the mail heading your way within the week. Let's hope this will stir someone to dig up an old Vol. 1 on which I can do the same :O Cheers! Sean From scaron at umich.edu Thu Aug 6 20:34:57 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 21:34:57 -0400 Subject: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C408C1.6000909@charter.net> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> <55C408C1.6000909@charter.net> Message-ID: For sure. When I quoted the 20 minute post time on new 4U machines earlier, I didn't include the time the four HBAs on those particular machines spent enumerating each one of the 360 drives connected ... only to poop out at the end of the process anyway because it runs out of memory in a fixed data structure and wants you to whack the space bar a bunch of times to acknowledge the warning. Then the hardware RAID. And the PXE BIOS on the NICs. And the configuration prompt for the management controller. Now they want to bake UEFI into these things and the silly "lifecycle controller" wants to drop in, take inventory and disconnect and what good that does me, I will never know ... Mostly it's an issue at deployment time; you are usually doing a few quick reboots in succession when loading the system and, while I admit, patience is definitely a virtue, watching these things POST can get frustrating when you're at work and other stuff is going on in the mean-time. Once they're up, they don't tend to get rebooted much. Best, Sean On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 9:24 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Aside from memory tests, in my experience, sometimes slowness can be > caused by a disk controller ROM (often on a SCSI controller) that gets > invoked during the POST that slows things down - particularly if it also > enumerates what is on the SCSI bus. > > On 8/6/2015 7:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On the subject of slow booting, perhaps someone can help me with a very > > annoying case of the slowboots. > > > > I've got a dual slot-1 P3 system here--a Supermicro P6DGE, which uses a > > 440GX chipset and 2GB of registered SDRAM with two 900MHz CPUs. When it > > finally get around to s booting, it's a great workhorse, with 2, > > count'em 2 well-behaved ISA slots. It's frisky enough to run Windows 7 > > and proudly proclaims that it was made in the USA. > > > > The problem is, that even with the "Fast boot" BIOS setting, it takes > > well over a minute to get to the point where it tries to boot. > > > > Does anyone have a clue on why it's so slow? Even getting the POST down > > to 15-20 seconds would be wonderful. > > > > --Chuck > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 7 00:02:14 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 05:02:14 +0000 Subject: Unidentified chip -- Spoiler for HP 1260-0339 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > And come to think of it, I bet those dummy chips were used for > training people to hand stuff boards as well. The Amstrad PCW8256 (word processor) came with 256K of RAM but could be expanded to 512K essentially by adding another 8 41256 DRAM chips. Some companies in the UK sold the 9-chip kits used to expand PCs (with parity memory) for this, telling you to use the extra chip to practice with. However the HP package I mentioned is the only time I've seen one of these dummy chips used on a production board. -tony From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Aug 7 01:27:54 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 08:27:54 +0200 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> <55C39C55.3090902@shiresoft.com> <55C3AAE5.4040908@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20150807062754.GB13686@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Aug 07, 2015 at 02:11:01PM +1200, Mike Ross wrote: > If you want to see how it works on bigger iron, here's a rare beast > indeed: my Application Starterpak 3000 - internal IBM codename > 'Warthog'. A real S/390 in a half-height chassis. First video is a > power-up; let it play to the end and it segues into the next video, > IPLing the beast! > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytMgyrZm87A Youtubes related video suggestion mirrors my sentiment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iuo31_GsuM /P From guy at cuillin.org.uk Fri Aug 7 07:26:39 2015 From: guy at cuillin.org.uk (Guy Dawson) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 13:26:39 +0100 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: As Al says, the microcode was dynamic and loaded from the boot console. I remember our (Deluxe Coachlines, Australia, 1987-1990) VAX 8550s and 8820 had PRO based boot consoles. When we had both 8550s failing with double CPU faults the DEC engineers loaded new microcode onto the consoles to diagnose the problem. On 6 August 2015 at 15:33, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 8/6/15 6:16 AM, geneb wrote: > >> One thing I don't understand - why can't the machine boot on its own? >> Why would IBM design a computer that required another computer just to >> boot it? >> >> >> > Main processor microcode is in RAM. Putting microcode in ram and having a > small computer load it was actually pretty common in the 70's and 80's in > larger systems since then you didn't have to manage the hassle of patching > microcode in ROM. > > Apple ended up putting a small TI microcontroller in the G5 because it > also couldn't boot on its own. There was a bunch of volatile state you > had to set up before it would fetch its first instruction. > > > > > > -- 4.4 > 5.4 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 7 07:26:12 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 12:26:12 +0000 Subject: Unidentified chip -- Spoiler for HP 1260-0339 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > It doesn't even shunt across; it's just 16 pins in a DIL package > "floating"? Strange. If it were a manufacturing test, one wouldn't expect > it would show up in production machines? Yes. It is just 16 pins unconnected to each other. As I mentioned some messages ago it is used as a connector. It's soldered to the board so you can fit one of those 'IC Test Clips' on top and pick up 16 signals. I came across it on the test board for the HPIB interface for the HP9830 (where it has the HPIB signals wired to the pins). Another place you find it is on the test board for the HP Logic Comparator (you know, the tool that compares a reference IC signals with those on a chip on a PCB). The Logic Comparator has a test clip to fit onto the IC on the board under test in normal use, to test said Logic Compator there is a test board with a bit of logic wired to one of these empty 16 pin packages that you put the Logic Comparator test clip on. -tony From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 7 07:57:57 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 07:57:57 -0500 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C42BF4.2050902@shiresoft.com> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> <55C39C55.3090902@shiresoft.com> <55C3AAE5.4040908@shiresoft.com> <55C42124.6060001@shiresoft.com> <55C42BF4.2050902@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <55C4AB55.3040009@charter.net> Backing up your console: Clonezilla is your friend. On 8/6/2015 10:54 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > I *really* have to figure out a backup solution for this so that I don't > get stuck but that > supposes that I have a way to re-create the OS/2 image that's already > there if I do have to > do a full from scratch restore. > > TTFN - Guy > From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Aug 7 10:26:06 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 17:26:06 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM Message-ID: <20150807152606.GA50046@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, I've got an VAX4000/300 eqipped with an TK70, 2x RF31, 1xRF71 disks, and an CQD-200/TM. I've connected an toshiba Xm5701 drive to the SCSI Bus and the machine sses it as DUA3. I have a VMS7.3 CDROM and want to install it on one of the disks. I've read some documents on HPs website but it isn't clear to me how to boot the cdrom correctly, there is root 1 mentioned. What bootflag must entered, B/R5:10000000? ..in the case w/o the R5:10000000 I get a $ Promt finally (here I habe to read further). With the bootflag the System is complaining that dua3 is write protected (it is the cdrom)... What's the correct way to install VMS on that machine? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jsw at ieee.org Fri Aug 7 10:47:22 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 10:47:22 -0500 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <20150807152606.GA50046@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150807152606.GA50046@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <1DD03C09-FE16-4E51-88DE-D13F3F97A966@ieee.org> Follow the OpenVMS VAX Version 7.3 Upgrade and Installation Manual AA?QSBQD?TE http://h20565.www2.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c04623149&lang=en-us&cc=us Section 3 takes you through the basics on how create a new disk. I used the same procedure just last week. Good Luck. > On Aug 7, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hi, > > I've got an VAX4000/300 eqipped with an TK70, 2x RF31, 1xRF71 disks, > and an CQD-200/TM. > I've connected an toshiba Xm5701 drive to the SCSI Bus and the machine sses > it as DUA3. I have a VMS7.3 CDROM and want to install it on one of the > disks. > I've read some documents on HPs website but it isn't clear to me > how to boot the cdrom correctly, there is root 1 mentioned. > What bootflag must entered, B/R5:10000000? > ..in the case w/o the R5:10000000 I get a $ Promt finally (here I habe to > read further). With the bootflag the System is complaining that dua3 is > write protected (it is the cdrom)... > > What's the correct way to install VMS on that machine? > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 11:18:02 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 11:18:02 -0500 Subject: Classic programming Message-ID: Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? -- Eric Christopherson From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Aug 7 11:22:46 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 18:22:46 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <1DD03C09-FE16-4E51-88DE-D13F3F97A966@ieee.org> Message-ID: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> Hmm.. it seems that the pdf is containing thestuff that I've already read somewhere on HP's website. There are two possibilities: [>>> B/R5:10000000 DKA400: [ [ [If you are booting from an InfoServer device, enter a command that [specifies root 1. For example, on a VAX 6000 computer, enter: [ [ [>>> B/R5:10000100/X:D/B:6 ET0 [ Ok, the first should fit with an abbrevation: B/R5:10000000 DUA3 (I have a VAX4000-300 not an VS4000/90, nor I have an VAX6000..) and this boots until the message with the write protected disk dua3..(sorry, don't have it handy..) and than the system hangs. When I simply boot B dua3 the install system asks for a date and I finally get a "$". Thats all.. That's why I've asked what todo.. Regards, Holm Jerry Weiss wrote: > Follow the OpenVMS VAX Version 7.3 Upgrade and Installation Manual > AA?QSBQD?TE http://h20565.www2.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c04623149&lang=en-us&cc=us > > Section 3 takes you through the basics on how create a new disk. I used the same procedure just last week. > > > Good Luck. > > > > On Aug 7, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I've got an VAX4000/300 eqipped with an TK70, 2x RF31, 1xRF71 disks, > > and an CQD-200/TM. > > I've connected an toshiba Xm5701 drive to the SCSI Bus and the machine sses > > it as DUA3. I have a VMS7.3 CDROM and want to install it on one of the > > disks. > > I've read some documents on HPs website but it isn't clear to me > > how to boot the cdrom correctly, there is root 1 mentioned. > > What bootflag must entered, B/R5:10000000? > > ..in the case w/o the R5:10000000 I get a $ Promt finally (here I habe to > > read further). With the bootflag the System is complaining that dua3 is > > write protected (it is the cdrom)... > > > > What's the correct way to install VMS on that machine? > > > > Regards, > > > > Holm > > -- > > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Fri Aug 7 11:28:52 2015 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 09:28:52 -0700 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4057DCB9-4229-47F8-BB47-AA87FC2FB705@fozztexx.com> On Aug 7, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in > languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer > in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? I do programming in BASIC twice a year for the RetroBattlestations BASIC Week contests. I try to come up with fairly simple but still interesting programs that people can type in on their old computers. I like BASIC because there are so many computers that have BASIC on-board and people don?t need to try to figure out how to get a disk drive or a tape drive connected and working and can turn on their machine and try out the program. I usually end up porting the program myself to sevarl different platforms to give less experienced people something to type in and also give more experienced people several versions to compare to when they try to port to their favorite BASIC dialect. I also did a LOGO Week once. I keep thinking I should do a FORTRAN Week or a HyperCard Week, but haven?t yet. You can check out all the past BASIC Week contests (as well as lots of other contests) here: http://redd.it/3fmpks -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From jsw at ieee.org Fri Aug 7 11:45:37 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 11:45:37 -0500 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: Having the CDROM write protected is normal for read-only media. The target drive needs to be write enabled. Before you boot the CD, list the disks you have. >>>sh device Choose a disk that is unused/empty. Once you get the $ or $$$ prompt, you need to restore the save from the CDROM to your target disk using BACKUP. My installation looked like this. DKA700 is the VAXVMS073 CDROM. DKA0: is the unused disk. Both disks are on the SCSI bus. During the restore, control-T shows the progress. Once I finished the restore of the OS to the new disk, booting from that disk automatically starts the rest of the install process. ------------ $$$ backup/image/verify dka700:vms073.b/save dka0: Restoring file: DKA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYS$LDR]FYDRIVER.EXE;1 Saveset volume:1, saveset block:71 (32256 byte blocks) Restoring file: DKA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYS$LDR]SYSLOA1302.EXE;1 Saveset volume:1, saveset block:143 (32256 byte blocks) Restoring file: DKA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYSMSG]CLIUTLMSG.EXE;1 Saveset volume:1, saveset block:1260 (32256 byte blocks) %BACKUP-I-STARTVERIFY, starting verification pass $$$ log Process SYSTEM_1 logged out at 26-JUL-2015 00:19:53.71 ******************************************************************** You can execute DCL commands and procedures for various "standalone" tasks, such as backing up the system disk. Please choose one of the following: 1) Execute DCL commands and procedures 2) Shut down this system Enter CHOICE or "?" to repeat menu: (1/2/?) 2 SYSTEM SHUTDOWN COMPLETE - use console to halt system ?02 EXT HLT PC = 81F0E6D3 >>>b dka0: (BOOT/R5:0 DKA0:) 2.. -DKA0 1..0.. %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping PAGEFILE.SYS on the System Disk %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SAVEDUMP parameter not set to protect the PAGEFILE.SYS OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version BI73-7G7 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 %WBM-I-WBMINFO Write Bitmap has successfully completed initialization. OpenVMS VAX V7.3 Installation Procedure Model: MicroVAX 3100-90 System device: DKX00 - _DKA0: Free Blocks: 8238429 CPU type: 19-03 * Please enter the date and time (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 26-jul-2015 ************************** > On Aug 7, 2015, at 11:22 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > Hmm.. it seems that the pdf is containing thestuff that I've already read > somewhere on HP's website. > > There are two possibilities: > > > [>>> B/R5:10000000 DKA400: > [ > [ > [If you are booting from an InfoServer device, enter a command that > [specifies root 1. For example, on a VAX 6000 computer, enter: > [ > [ > [>>> B/R5:10000100/X:D/B:6 ET0 > [ > > Ok, the first should fit with an abbrevation: > > B/R5:10000000 DUA3 > > (I have a VAX4000-300 not an VS4000/90, nor I have an VAX6000..) > > and this boots until the message with the write protected disk > dua3..(sorry, don't have it handy..) and than the system hangs. > > When I simply boot B dua3 the install system asks for a date > and I finally get a "$". Thats all.. > > That's why I've asked what todo.. > > Regards, > > Holm > > > > > > Jerry Weiss wrote: > >> Follow the OpenVMS VAX Version 7.3 Upgrade and Installation Manual >> AA?QSBQD?TE http://h20565.www2.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c04623149&lang=en-us&cc=us >> >> Section 3 takes you through the basics on how create a new disk. I used the same procedure just last week. >> >> >> Good Luck. >> >> >>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I've got an VAX4000/300 eqipped with an TK70, 2x RF31, 1xRF71 disks, >>> and an CQD-200/TM. >>> I've connected an toshiba Xm5701 drive to the SCSI Bus and the machine sses >>> it as DUA3. I have a VMS7.3 CDROM and want to install it on one of the >>> disks. >>> I've read some documents on HPs website but it isn't clear to me >>> how to boot the cdrom correctly, there is root 1 mentioned. >>> What bootflag must entered, B/R5:10000000? >>> ..in the case w/o the R5:10000000 I get a $ Promt finally (here I habe to >>> read further). With the bootflag the System is complaining that dua3 is >>> write protected (it is the cdrom)... >>> >>> What's the correct way to install VMS on that machine? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Holm >>> -- >>> Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, >>> Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 >>> www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 >>> > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > From leec2124 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 11:50:25 2015 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 09:50:25 -0700 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <4057DCB9-4229-47F8-BB47-AA87FC2FB705@fozztexx.com> References: <4057DCB9-4229-47F8-BB47-AA87FC2FB705@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: That would be fun, although I don't think this list is setup for "sub-Reddits." I occasionally hack with my first love, APL. Wouldn't mind some SNOBOL or PL/1 dalliances, but no time. Lee C. On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Chris Osborn wrote: > On Aug 7, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Eric Christopherson > wrote: > > > Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in > > languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer > > in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? > > I do programming in BASIC twice a year for the RetroBattlestations BASIC > Week contests. I try to come up with fairly simple but still interesting > programs that people can type in on their old computers. I like BASIC > because there are so many computers that have BASIC on-board and people > don?t need to try to figure out how to get a disk drive or a tape drive > connected and working and can turn on their machine and try out the program. > > I usually end up porting the program myself to sevarl different platforms > to give less experienced people something to type in and also give more > experienced people several versions to compare to when they try to port to > their favorite BASIC dialect. > > I also did a LOGO Week once. I keep thinking I should do a FORTRAN Week or > a HyperCard Week, but haven?t yet. > > You can check out all the past BASIC Week contests (as well as lots of > other contests) here: > > http://redd.it/3fmpks > > -- > Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx > Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 7 11:53:54 2015 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 09:53:54 -0700 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1438966434.58300.YahooMailBasic@web184703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> On Fri, 8/7/15, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in > languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer > in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? Funny you should mention that. I just recently wrote a PDP-8 simulator in MCPL. (It boots OS/8 as of about a week and a half ago). MCPL is a language developed by Martin Richards who originated BCPL (which inspired Thompson's B which of course Ritchie developed into C). I also spend some time here and there with Forth on a homebrew 6809 system. So the answer is yes, there are definitely people here who enjoy older languages. BLS From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 7 11:59:11 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 09:59:11 -0700 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C4E3DF.2060608@sydex.com> On 08/07/2015 09:18 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in > languages or language implementations or libraries that are no > longer in common mainstream use? "Classic" to me is a confusing term. Do you mean languages such as COMTRAN or 7080 Autocoder? JOVIAL? "Common mainstream use" is also a problem. Some consider Fortran to be such an obsolete language--until you get into the numerics-heavy fields of supercomputing. RPG is still very much around. Be a bit more specific, please. --Chuck From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 7 12:22:46 2015 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 18:22:46 +0100 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <20150807152606.GA50046@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150807152606.GA50046@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <55C4E966.8050204@ntlworld.com> On 07/08/15 16:26, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hi, > > I've got an VAX4000/300 eqipped with an TK70, 2x RF31, 1xRF71 disks, > and an CQD-200/TM. > I've connected an toshiba Xm5701 drive to the SCSI Bus and the machine sses > it as DUA3. I have a VMS7.3 CDROM and want to install it on one of the > disks. > I think this has already been answered, but just to flesh things out a little more. The more recent CONDIST CDs (where "recent" means somewhere around V7 or so) became bootable from [SYS1] (albeit only into S/A BACKUP, iirc). So you specify the R5 to specify the "SYSn" from which you boot and the device name. On older systems you might have had to specify everything via registers, but I think most of those systems are so old that they didn't support CDs. An alternative would be to boot from an InfoServer, in which case the R5 flags would be different again. A final possibility is that you can (and should) build SA BACKUP on at least one other disk that isn't the system disk. That way if you lose the system disk you can sawap in a new system disk, boot off the disk with SA BACKUP and restore. This was very useful in the days before InfoServers and CDROMs. In this scenario SA BACKUP was usually built in [SYSE] so your boot flags would be different again. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 7 12:26:35 2015 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 18:26:35 +0100 Subject: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C42C51.5060907@sydex.com> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> <55C408C1.6000909@charter.net> <55C41FBF.80606@sydex.com> <55c42403.6684320a.2549.7505@mx.google.com> <55C42C51.5060907@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C4EA4B.90707@ntlworld.com> On 07/08/15 04:56, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/06/2015 08:20 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> You might check whether the BIOS config is set to autodetect drives >> at startup; in many BIOSes each IDE channel can be set to Auto/None >> or a specific config. Try setting all installed drives to a specific >> configuration, and any unused channels to None. Autodetection can >> sometimes take a long time. I also find that detection of cd/dvd >> drives is sometimes very slow... >> >> (apologies for top-posting, responding on my phone which has a >> primitive editor...) > > > I already do that. Note that the "dead time" occurs before getting > the message "Inspecting IDE configuration", so I don't think it's > that. Network boot is turned off, BTW. > I don't think I have your exact supermicro board but ones I've used in the past have had on board SCSI that had to be disabled otherwise it would sit there for 30s thinking about why things were so quiet on the bus. Similarly PXE boot takes a while, but you say you've turned that off. I don't think I got the one I was playing with down to much less than 30s ... which felt like an age even though I wasn't booting it very often. Antonio From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Aug 7 12:25:48 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 13:25:48 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C4EA1C.3000109@compsys.to> >Eric Christopherson wrote: >Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in >languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer >in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? > It may be possible that FORTRAN 77 under RT-11 on a PDP-11 qualifies as far as you are concerned. In addition to the standard library supplied by DEC, I also wrote a few multi-precision subroutines which handle unsigned integer values up ti 512-bits and mixed unsigned values with a 512-bit unsigned integer portion and a fractional portion of 512-bits. Quite recently, I have a requirement to square very large unsigned integers up to one billion bits which will require additional subroutines. Implementation will almost certainly be done under Ersatz-11 with the actual code using x86 instructions within PC memory using a DLL supported by Ersatz-11 running RT-11. Even then, it seems doubtful that the code will be fast enough in a 32-bit environment. Does this interest you? Jerome Fine From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Aug 7 12:51:14 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 13:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <55C4EA1C.3000109@compsys.to> References: <55C4EA1C.3000109@compsys.to> Message-ID: <201508071751.NAA07552@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Quite recently, I have a requirement to square very large unsigned > integers up to one billion bits [...] Are you aware of faster-than-n^2 multiplication algorithms like Karatsuba, Toom-Cook, or Sch?nhage-Strassen? If not, you might want to look into them; if you're working with numbers that large, such things can make the difference between "practical" and "might finish before the heat-death of the universe if we're lucky"...though, admittedly, for just simple squaring it's probably not all _that_ bad. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Aug 7 13:04:22 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 20:04:22 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20150807180422.GA58081@beast.freibergnet.de> Jerry Weiss wrote: > Having the CDROM write protected is normal for read-only media. The target drive needs to be write enabled. Before you boot the CD, list the disks you have. Yes, it's vnormal that the CDR is ro.. I have the following devices: du3 .. CDROM and DISK0$DIA0 (RF31) and DISK1$DIA1 (RF31) and DISK2$DIA2 (RF71) > > >>>sh device > > Choose a disk that is unused/empty. > > Once you get the $ or $$$ prompt, you need to restore the save from the CDROM to your target disk using BACKUP. > > My installation looked like this. DKA700 is the VAXVMS073 CDROM. DKA0: is the unused disk. Both disks are on the SCSI bus. > > During the restore, control-T shows the progress. > Once I finished the restore of the OS to the new disk, booting from that disk automatically starts the rest of the install process. > > ------------ > > $$$ backup/image/verify dka700:vms073.b/save dka0: > Restoring file: DKA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYS$LDR]FYDRIVER.EXE;1 > Saveset volume:1, saveset block:71 (32256 byte blocks) > Restoring file: DKA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYS$LDR]SYSLOA1302.EXE;1 > Saveset volume:1, saveset block:143 (32256 byte blocks) > Restoring file: DKA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYSMSG]CLIUTLMSG.EXE;1 > Saveset volume:1, saveset block:1260 (32256 byte blocks) > %BACKUP-I-STARTVERIFY, starting verification pass > $$$ log I've booted the CD w/o any bootflag in R5 to the $ prompt. , it asks for the date/time and displays the devices like above (DISK0$DIA0 but DU3) and asks if that list is correct, yes it is. After that I've issued: $ backup/image/verify dua3:vms073.b/save disk0$dia0: (dia0 only doesn't work) I've get a long list about many files (from the cdrom) and SYSTEM-F-VOLINF, volume is not software enabled A while ago I've reformated an tested the 3 DSS I disks with the firmware on them, the disks are all empty. I think here is a step missing, Do I have to initialize them first? The disks are ok, the veryfy programs on them saying that.... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jws at jwsss.com Fri Aug 7 13:08:38 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 11:08:38 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C42BF4.2050902@shiresoft.com> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> <55C39C55.3090902@shiresoft.com> <55C3AAE5.4040908@shiresoft.com> <55C42124.6060001@shiresoft.com> <55C42BF4.2050902@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <55C4F426.4000500@jwsss.com> On 8/6/2015 8:54 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Cool! I've toyed with the idea of getting a larger mainframe (zSeries) > but the aspect of trying > to get and configure storage for it is the main stumbling block. > > I didn't realize how lucky I was with mine until I started hearing > about the horror stories from > others. I think what helped was that mine wasn't "molested" before I > received it. In addition > to arriving in the original IBM shipping crate (really? who keeps > that?) it also had all of the > "extras" in terms of cables, terminators, etc still unopened. The > only thing that I'm missing > is some of the software and diagnostics that were supplied on either > tape or CD. > It may have been packed by IBM for the customer. This is standard service available to mainframe shops. Most of them who have assets which have value get them packaged by IBM either under their current maintenance contract, or at extra cost if they are not on their plan. The service used to be called MSL, I think, but it has been a long time since I dealt with such. Even if you bought it from a scrapper, the original shops frequently just have them packed like that and then rolled off the floor for storage, because when IBM packs them they are certified ready to go back into service with a lot less if any re-certification charges for maintenance. If you disconnect the components yourself (and who do you know in IT does that unless they are getting it for scrap if the hardware guys will do it) that can / does void that they can go back online w/o a big fee. IBM dropped a huge bomb on the third party business of doing this and trading equipment by making it free in the early 90's which wiped out a large number of equipment dealers who were buying / refurbing / reselling peripherals. There were a few bad players, and IBM's take on that was to make the profit part for the dealers free, and wiping them all out. I lost the home for my systems when that happened. Thanks Jim > I *really* have to figure out a backup solution for this so that I > don't get stuck but that > supposes that I have a way to re-create the OS/2 image that's already > there if I do have to > do a full from scratch restore. > > TTFN - Guy From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 7 13:15:28 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 14:15:28 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Aug 7, 2015, at 12:18 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in > languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer > in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? I suppose a lot of readers of this list do that, if you consider assembly languages. For other languages: I?ve been maintaining the Cyber1 PLATO system from the start of that project, which involves periodic work in TUTOR. And I?m working on recovering software for the Electrologica EL-X8 and EL-X1 systems; the former was a particularly good ALGOL system and the latter the host for the first ever ALGOL compiler. This is fun since ALGOL was the first language I learned, luckily. paul From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Aug 7 13:16:20 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 18:16:20 +0000 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBAEE6F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Eric Christopherson Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 9:18 AM > Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in > languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer > in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? As others have noted, there are a lot of subjective unstateds in your basic question. I do a lot of my daily programming in PDP-10 assemblers, usually Macro-20 but when working on WAITS it's FAIL and on ITS it's MIDAS. In addition, I occasionally program in MIT TECO, to keep my hand in as the maintainer of the original EMACS (RMS said so). One project got sidetracked by an operating system that is too modern: The DECsystem-1070 (KI-10 processor) is running Tops-10 v6.03A, in which executable programs are created in .EXE format. Even the most recent version, 7.05, can execute programs in the older form (two segment files, a .LOW and a .HGH or .SHR depending on sharability of the high segment code). This affects the use of an old FORTRAN compiler to implement a vintage on-line game, DECWAR, in which the .SHR segment is writable, and each player's stats (up to 12 players at a time) are kept there. What I have to do, when higher priority projects permit, is to install a copy of the linker, and probably Macro-10 as well, from v5.03, which came before the .EXE file format was defined. A year earlier, to get the KI-10 going, I had to program in PAL on our PDP-8/e to add capabilities to PIP10, because the 8/e was the only system in the museum with working DECtape drives which could read and write on PDP-10 format DECtapes. So yeah, not a lot of mainstream use of the languages involved, and yeah, I like doing it. That's a good thing, because otherwise my job could be deadly. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 7 13:35:14 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 11:35:14 -0700 Subject: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C4EA4B.90707@ntlworld.com> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> <55C408C1.6000909@charter.net> <55C41FBF.80606@sydex.com> <55c42403.6684320a.2549.7505@mx.google.com> <55C42C51.5060907@sydex.com> <55C4EA4B.90707@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <55C4FA62.7060606@sydex.com> On 08/07/2015 10:26 AM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > I don't think I have your exact supermicro board but ones I've used > in the past have had on board SCSI that had to be disabled otherwise > it would sit there for 30s thinking about why things were so quiet on > the bus. I think that supermicro still has the specs for the board up: http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/archive/PentiumIII/440GX/P6DGE.cfm As you can see, it's pretty basic. It's pretty hard to find reasonably fast boards with fully-functional ISA slots nowadays. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 7 13:43:56 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 11:43:56 -0700 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBAEE6F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBAEE6F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <55C4FC6C.8090401@sydex.com> On 08/07/2015 11:16 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > As others have noted, there are a lot of subjective unstateds in > your basic question. Jerome's post in connection with this put me in mind of a BASIC package written by an old (I lost track of him a long time ago) friend, Mike Louder--Prime Factor BASIC. Stil have the disk and manual on the shelf, even though I've ever owned an Apple II. I think it qualifies as "languages no longer in use". Does arbitrary-precision modular math--used in some early crypto work. Has anyone other than myself ever heard of this package? --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Aug 7 13:45:37 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 14:45:37 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C4FCD1.1040901@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-08-07 12:18 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in > languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer > in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? > Or perhaps "not yet in common mainstream use"? I'm into programming language history and have moved through a lot of them, good, bad and ugly, so yes, count me in. --Toby From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 14:08:58 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 14:08:58 -0500 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBAEE6F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBAEE6F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Eric Christopherson > Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 9:18 AM > >> Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in >> languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer >> in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? > > As others have noted, there are a lot of subjective unstateds in your > basic question. Yeah, I guess I left it wide open, didn't I? I'm not sure I could really narrow it down, since different spheres do use different things, and (as in the case of Fortran and the Lisps) some quite old languages are still being used, and still evolving, in niches. But my question does include those two language families as well, especially the older implementations of them. Now that I think about it, though, I'm not sure whether C should qualify as an example; implicitly I was thinking it was far too mainstream (being the basis of Unix and much of Windows, plus tons of applications); but it is also fairly old and curmudgeonly, and allows you to do dangerous things like mess about with pointers. I think maybe the scope of this question probably depends a lot on the scope of the person asking it. I've only worked with microcomputers, so things like COBOL and RPG (while I'm sure they are available on micros in some form) are completely out of my ken. And I'm under 40, which means there are plenty of things I haven't heard of; but also that many things that I *have* heard of before the 1980s BASIC home computer heyday are sort of exotic and interesting. As for my interests, I started with Commodore BASIC and 6502 assembly. I'm still interested in 6502 (and to an extent x86) assembly, but I sort of feel like I got enough out of Commodore BASIC and don't feel the need to revisit it. Then again, since I'm a wishy-washy sort, I remember my dream of writing a compiler for it. And I'm slightly interested in GWBASIC and QBasic, since I haven't quite "worn them out" yet in my mind. I spent a long time trying to like C++; it was hard going (perhaps because the differences between C++ and C were fuzzy in my mind then). I was using DJGPP and Turbo C++ 3 back in those days; I've installed both in DOSBox but so far haven't had time to play with them much. Then finally I moved on to various scripting languages, and now I just pick up a little here and a little there of different things. (I love how interpreted languages on modern hardware run so much faster than compiled or hand-coded assembly programs in the old days.) A few years ago I developed quite an interest in PostScript, and through it discovered Forth and bits of other stack-based languages. I'm looking forward to getting a SunOS system (someone has agreed to set me up in the near future) so I can use PostScript as part of the NeWS operating system. I'm not sure why that system (which uses PS for all [local] front-end code, and whatever you like on the backend) seems so cool to me; it's basically the same way web apps work, only with PS instead of JavaScript, but still I want to try it. I don't like Forth as much as PS (doesn't seem as elegant), but it does have its charms, and slowly I'm digesting it and learning its conventions. It's nice that it's easily implemented on a small system. Finally, I'd like to actually learn Logo some day too. Back in grade school they would regularly sit us down and have us draw squares with the turtle, but no actual programming, which makes me sad and a little angry now -- Logo is a lot more than RT 90 FD 100! (I'm trying to remember if they even taught us how to repeat a set of instructions; I'm certain they never said anything about creating functions.) To Brian L. Stuart: What separates MCPL from CPL and BCPL? I'm not finding much about it, although it looks like it has the benefit of nice pattern matching. > > I do a lot of my daily programming in PDP-10 assemblers, usually Macro-20 > but when working on WAITS it's FAIL and on ITS it's MIDAS. In addition, > I occasionally program in MIT TECO, to keep my hand in as the maintainer > of the original EMACS (RMS said so). Ah... text editors are another big interest of mine. That's very cool. I should check TECO out some day. > > One project got sidetracked by an operating system that is too modern: > The DECsystem-1070 (KI-10 processor) is running Tops-10 v6.03A, in which > executable programs are created in .EXE format. Even the most recent > version, 7.05, can execute programs in the older form (two segment files, > a .LOW and a .HGH or .SHR depending on sharability of the high segment > code). This affects the use of an old FORTRAN compiler to implement a > vintage on-line game, DECWAR, in which the .SHR segment is writable, and > each player's stats (up to 12 players at a time) are kept there. > > What I have to do, when higher priority projects permit, is to install a > copy of the linker, and probably Macro-10 as well, from v5.03, which came > before the .EXE file format was defined. > > A year earlier, to get the KI-10 going, I had to program in PAL on our > PDP-8/e to add capabilities to PIP10, because the 8/e was the only system > in the museum with working DECtape drives which could read and write on > PDP-10 format DECtapes. > > So yeah, not a lot of mainstream use of the languages involved, and yeah, > I like doing it. That's a good thing, because otherwise my job could be > deadly. > > Rich -- Eric Christopherson From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Aug 7 14:15:44 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 12:15:44 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C4F426.4000500@jwsss.com> References: <55C37042.2050208@bitsavers.org> <55C37593.3030202@sydex.com> <55C38A2D.7030901@sydex.com> <55C39C55.3090902@shiresoft.com> <55C3AAE5.4040908@shiresoft.com> <55C42124.6060001@shiresoft.com> <55C42BF4.2050902@shiresoft.com> <55C4F426.4000500@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <55C503E0.7070503@shiresoft.com> On 8/7/15 11:08 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 8/6/2015 8:54 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Cool! I've toyed with the idea of getting a larger mainframe >> (zSeries) but the aspect of trying >> to get and configure storage for it is the main stumbling block. >> >> I didn't realize how lucky I was with mine until I started hearing >> about the horror stories from >> others. I think what helped was that mine wasn't "molested" before I >> received it. In addition >> to arriving in the original IBM shipping crate (really? who keeps >> that?) it also had all of the >> "extras" in terms of cables, terminators, etc still unopened. The >> only thing that I'm missing >> is some of the software and diagnostics that were supplied on either >> tape or CD. >> > It may have been packed by IBM for the customer. This is standard > service available to mainframe shops. Most of them who have assets > which have value get them packaged by IBM either under their current > maintenance contract, or at extra cost if they are not on their plan. > The service used to be called MSL, I think, but it has been a long > time since I dealt with such. > > Even if you bought it from a scrapper, the original shops frequently > just have them packed like that and then rolled off the floor for > storage, because when IBM packs them they are certified ready to go > back into service with a lot less if any re-certification charges for > maintenance. If you disconnect the components yourself (and who do > you know in IT does that unless they are getting it for scrap if the > hardware guys will do it) that can / does void that they can go back > online w/o a big fee. This was the original shipping crate from when the MP3000 was manufactured and delivered to the original customer as it had all of the original IBM manufacturing stickers and original shipping labels still attached. There were also contents in the crate that were not originally from IBM. It looks like who ever packed this, took all of the equipment that was related to the MP3000 (some 1U servers and KVM switches as well as the MP3000 kit) so I don't think IBM did the packaging of this. TTFN - Guy From jsw at ieee.org Fri Aug 7 14:21:05 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 14:21:05 -0500 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <20150807180422.GA58081@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150807180422.GA58081@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <5EFECFA1-1F02-47CB-B031-3884C141D134@ieee.org> As Antonio mentioned, the condist VAXVMS073 normally boots into standalone backup mode. The only application that runs is BACKUP. if you boot >>>b/r5:10000000 dka700: (BOOT/R5:10000000 DKA700:) You get a bit more capability to handle disks. You can mount the disks and verify they are accessbile. If you use dump, specify reasonable start and end blocks as interrupts don?t work (!) $set noverify Installing required known files... Configuring devices... System time is: 26-JUL-2015 00:11:19.97 Enter Yes to the next question to leave the system time unchanged (the system clock continues to run unaffected) Enter No to set a new system time Enter ? to redisplay the time * Is this correct? (Y/N/?) y ******************************************************************** You can execute DCL commands and procedures for various "standalone" tasks, such as backing up the system disk. Please choose one of the following: 1) Execute DCL commands and procedures 2) Shut down this system Enter CHOICE or "?" to repeat menu: (1/2/?) 1 WARNING -- The normal OpenVMS startup procedure has not executed. Some commands and utilities will not work as documented. COMPAQ does not support PRODUCT INSTALL and other PRODUCT operations in this environment. Enter DCL commands -- Enter "LOGOUT" when done. When you enter "LOGOUT" a logout message will be displayed, and you will be returned to the menu. $$$ Note the different prompt. $$$ mount/fore dka400: %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, HD1025 mounted on _DKA400: $$$ sh dev dka400:/full Disk DKA400:, device type SEAGATE ST15230N, is online, allocated, deallocate on dismount, mounted foreign, file-oriented device, shareable, error logging is enabled. Error count 0 Operations completed 5 Owner process "STARTUP" Owner UIC [1,4] Owner process ID 00000023 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,W Reference count 2 Default buffer size 512 Total blocks 8386733 Sectors per track 111 Total cylinders 3977 Tracks per cylinder 19 Volume label "HD1025" Relative volume number 0 Cluster size 0 Transaction count 1 Free blocks 0 Maximum files allowed 0 Extend quantity 0 Mount count 1 Mount status Process ACP process name "" Volume Status: Unknown ACP type. $$$ > On Aug 7, 2015, at 1:04 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Jerry Weiss wrote: > >> Having the CDROM write protected is normal for read-only media. The target drive needs to be write enabled. Before you boot the CD, list the disks you have. > > Yes, it's vnormal that the CDR is ro.. > > I have the following devices: > > du3 .. CDROM > and DISK0$DIA0 (RF31) > and DISK1$DIA1 (RF31) > and DISK2$DIA2 (RF71) >> >>>>> sh device >> >> Choose a disk that is unused/empty. >> >> Once you get the $ or $$$ prompt, you need to restore the save from the CDROM to your target disk using BACKUP. >> >> My installation looked like this. DKA700 is the VAXVMS073 CDROM. DKA0: is the unused disk. Both disks are on the SCSI bus. >> >> During the restore, control-T shows the progress. >> Once I finished the restore of the OS to the new disk, booting from that disk automatically starts the rest of the install process. >> >> ------------ >> >> $$$ backup/image/verify dka700:vms073.b/save dka0: >> Restoring file: DKA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYS$LDR]FYDRIVER.EXE;1 >> Saveset volume:1, saveset block:71 (32256 byte blocks) >> Restoring file: DKA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYS$LDR]SYSLOA1302.EXE;1 >> Saveset volume:1, saveset block:143 (32256 byte blocks) >> Restoring file: DKA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYSMSG]CLIUTLMSG.EXE;1 >> Saveset volume:1, saveset block:1260 (32256 byte blocks) >> %BACKUP-I-STARTVERIFY, starting verification pass >> $$$ log > > > I've booted the CD w/o any bootflag in R5 to the $ prompt. > , it asks for the date/time and displays the devices like above > (DISK0$DIA0 but DU3) and asks if that list is correct, yes it is. > After that I've issued: > > $ backup/image/verify dua3:vms073.b/save disk0$dia0: > (dia0 only doesn't work) > > I've get a long list about many files (from the cdrom) > and SYSTEM-F-VOLINF, volume is not software enabled > > > A while ago I've reformated an tested the 3 DSS > I disks with the firmware on them, the disks are all empty. > I think here is a step missing, Do I have to initialize them first? > The disks are ok, the veryfy programs on them saying that.... > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 7 14:22:18 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 15:22:18 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBAEE6F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <19AA5C6D-826B-460D-BABF-F5A304E17ED6@comcast.net> > On Aug 7, 2015, at 3:08 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Rich Alderson > wrote: >> From: Eric Christopherson >> Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 9:18 AM >> >>> Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in >>> languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer >>> in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? >> ... > > I think maybe the scope of this question probably depends a lot on the > scope of the person asking it. I've only worked with microcomputers, > so things like COBOL and RPG (while I'm sure they are available on > micros in some form) are completely out of my ken. Those are still fairly mainstream; my sister makes her living programming in those languages. > ... > I don't like Forth as much as PS (doesn't seem as elegant), but it > does have its charms, and slowly I'm digesting it and learning its > conventions. It's nice that it's easily implemented on a small system. Yes, which is why it is used in some boot ROMs to this day. A basic implementation is only a few hundred lines of assembly language, plus however much Forth code you want for the not-so-primitive operations. PostScript is a Forth derivative with different name binding rules. It doesn?t seem any more elegant to me, but it does have a few more data types. It also requires vastly more memory, which is quite ok given its intended purpose. >> ...I do a lot of my daily programming in PDP-10 assemblers, usually Macro-20 >> but when working on WAITS it's FAIL and on ITS it's MIDAS. In addition, >> I occasionally program in MIT TECO, to keep my hand in as the maintainer >> of the original EMACS (RMS said so). > > Ah... text editors are another big interest of mine. That's very cool. > I should check TECO out some day. While TECO is certainly a text editor, it also qualifies as a programming language. For one thing, the first Emacs was implemented in TECO. For another, you can find famous programs like the two-like program that prints pi to hundreds of digits, one digit at a time. (That?s an amazing accomplishment: a ?spigot algorithm?. Look for the paper by the program?s author, Stanley Rabinowitz; it can be found on-line.) paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 7 14:30:54 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 19:30:54 +0000 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBAEE6F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>, Message-ID: I am not a programmer, but... > A few years ago I developed quite an interest in PostScript, and > through it discovered Forth and bits of other stack-based languages. I love stack-based languages in general (Forth was the first high-level-ish language I learnt after BASIC (which in turn I learnt after SC/MP machine code). I particularly like RPL, the language used on the HP28/48/49/50 series of calculators. You can put just about anything on the stack. Real numbers, integers, unit objects (real numbers with attached measurement units), binary numbers, strings, vectors, matrices, lists (of anything), programs (!), etc. Operators do what you'd expect so '+' applied to 2 reals pops them and pushes their sum. Applied to 2 strings, it pops them and pushes the concatenation of the strings. And so on. Not many languages let you built up what looks like a program in a string (using the normal string operators) then turn that string into a program (also on the stack) and then execute it. -tony From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Aug 7 14:43:14 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 21:43:14 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <5EFECFA1-1F02-47CB-B031-3884C141D134@ieee.org> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150807180422.GA58081@beast.freibergnet.de> <5EFECFA1-1F02-47CB-B031-3884C141D134@ieee.org> Message-ID: <20150807194314.GB58081@beast.freibergnet.de> Jerry Weiss wrote: > As Antonio mentioned, the condist VAXVMS073 normally boots into standalone backup mode. The only application > that runs is BACKUP. > > if you boot > >>>b/r5:10000000 dka700: > (BOOT/R5:10000000 DKA700:) > tried this in the meantime... the system boots with b/r5:10000000 dua3: ...warnings about cannot map sysdump.dmp on the system disk, cannot map pagefile.sys on the systemdisk OpenVMS (TM) .. something.. %WBM-I-WBMINFO Write bitmap has successfuly completed %sysinit-e --error opening system dump file.. blabla.. %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, DUA3: has been writer-locked. Mount verification in progress. and here it hangs, nothings happens. Can't get a prompt ot type anything. ...Rest tomorrow. Enough for today. Thanks in the meantime and good night ! Holm > You get a bit more capability to handle disks. You can mount the disks and verify they are accessbile. If you > use dump, specify reasonable start and end blocks as interrupts don?t work (!) > > $set noverify > Installing required known files... > Configuring devices... > > System time is: 26-JUL-2015 00:11:19.97 > Enter Yes to the next question to leave the system time unchanged > (the system clock continues to run unaffected) > Enter No to set a new system time > > Enter ? to redisplay the time > > * Is this correct? (Y/N/?) y > > ******************************************************************** > You can execute DCL commands and procedures for various "standalone" > tasks, such as backing up the system disk. > > Please choose one of the following: > 1) Execute DCL commands and procedures > 2) Shut down this system > Enter CHOICE or "?" to repeat menu: (1/2/?) 1 > > WARNING -- > The normal OpenVMS startup procedure has not executed. > Some commands and utilities will not work as documented. > COMPAQ does not support PRODUCT INSTALL and other > PRODUCT operations in this environment. > > Enter DCL commands -- Enter "LOGOUT" when done. > When you enter "LOGOUT" a logout message will be displayed, > and you will be returned to the menu. > > $$$ > > Note the different prompt. > > $$$ mount/fore dka400: > %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, HD1025 mounted on _DKA400: > $$$ sh dev dka400:/full > > Disk DKA400:, device type SEAGATE ST15230N, is online, allocated, deallocate on > dismount, mounted foreign, file-oriented device, shareable, error logging is > enabled. > > Error count 0 Operations completed 5 > Owner process "STARTUP" Owner UIC [1,4] > Owner process ID 00000023 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,W > Reference count 2 Default buffer size 512 > Total blocks 8386733 Sectors per track 111 > Total cylinders 3977 Tracks per cylinder 19 > > Volume label "HD1025" Relative volume number 0 > Cluster size 0 Transaction count 1 > Free blocks 0 Maximum files allowed 0 > Extend quantity 0 Mount count 1 > Mount status Process ACP process name "" > > Volume Status: Unknown ACP type. > > $$$ > > > On Aug 7, 2015, at 1:04 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > Jerry Weiss wrote: > > > >> Having the CDROM write protected is normal for read-only media. The target drive needs to be write enabled. Before you boot the CD, list the disks you have. > > > > Yes, it's vnormal that the CDR is ro.. > > > > I have the following devices: > > > > du3 .. CDROM > > and DISK0$DIA0 (RF31) > > and DISK1$DIA1 (RF31) > > and DISK2$DIA2 (RF71) > >> > >>>>> sh device > >> > >> Choose a disk that is unused/empty. > >> > >> Once you get the $ or $$$ prompt, you need to restore the save from the CDROM to your target disk using BACKUP. > >> > >> My installation looked like this. DKA700 is the VAXVMS073 CDROM. DKA0: is the unused disk. Both disks are on the SCSI bus. > >> > >> During the restore, control-T shows the progress. > >> Once I finished the restore of the OS to the new disk, booting from that disk automatically starts the rest of the install process. > >> > >> ------------ > >> > >> $$$ backup/image/verify dka700:vms073.b/save dka0: > >> Restoring file: DKA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYS$LDR]FYDRIVER.EXE;1 > >> Saveset volume:1, saveset block:71 (32256 byte blocks) > >> Restoring file: DKA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYS$LDR]SYSLOA1302.EXE;1 > >> Saveset volume:1, saveset block:143 (32256 byte blocks) > >> Restoring file: DKA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYSMSG]CLIUTLMSG.EXE;1 > >> Saveset volume:1, saveset block:1260 (32256 byte blocks) > >> %BACKUP-I-STARTVERIFY, starting verification pass > >> $$$ log > > > > > > I've booted the CD w/o any bootflag in R5 to the $ prompt. > > , it asks for the date/time and displays the devices like above > > (DISK0$DIA0 but DU3) and asks if that list is correct, yes it is. > > After that I've issued: > > > > $ backup/image/verify dua3:vms073.b/save disk0$dia0: > > (dia0 only doesn't work) > > > > I've get a long list about many files (from the cdrom) > > and SYSTEM-F-VOLINF, volume is not software enabled > > > > > > A while ago I've reformated an tested the 3 DSS > > I disks with the firmware on them, the disks are all empty. > > I think here is a step missing, Do I have to initialize them first? > > The disks are ok, the veryfy programs on them saying that.... > > > > Regards, > > > > Holm > > -- > > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Aug 7 15:19:13 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 20:19:13 +0000 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBAEE6F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBAF128@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Eric Christopherson Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 12:09 PM > ... Fortran and the Lisps They're playing an all ages, no cover set at Showbox SoDo tomorrow night! (Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'd pay to go see a band called "Fortran and the Lisps", whether by value or by name. ;-) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Aug 7 15:21:14 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 20:21:14 +0000 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBAEE6F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>, Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBAF156@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: tony duell Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 12:31 PM > Not many languages let you built up what looks like a program in a > string (using the normal string operators) then turn that string into > a program (also on the stack) and then execute it. Tony, have you met my friend TECO? I think you'll like her. :-) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From trs80 at marmotking.com Fri Aug 7 15:24:53 2015 From: trs80 at marmotking.com (David Cooper) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 13:24:53 -0700 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I program in Perl every day at work. I suppose that puts me in that category. :) -----Original Message----- From: Eric Christopherson Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 9:18 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Classic programming Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? -- Eric Christopherson From scaron at umich.edu Fri Aug 7 10:38:58 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 11:38:58 -0400 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <20150807152606.GA50046@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150807152606.GA50046@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: Hi Holm, If the CD-ROM is showing up as DKnXXX in "show dev", you just need the boot parameters to be zeroed out or default or whatever ... nothing special is required, just boot DKnXXX where that's the CD-ROM device and it should come right up. I have found this to be the case on any VAX machine I've got. When you boot the installation disk, eventually you will land at a DCL prompt, the only useful command you can run there is BACKUP, to restore the save set off the CD-ROM to your hard disk. Once you've restored the save set from CD-ROM to the HDD, boot from the HDD (again with default flags) to continue the installation process. Best, Sean On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hi, > > I've got an VAX4000/300 eqipped with an TK70, 2x RF31, 1xRF71 disks, > and an CQD-200/TM. > I've connected an toshiba Xm5701 drive to the SCSI Bus and the machine sses > it as DUA3. I have a VMS7.3 CDROM and want to install it on one of the > disks. > I've read some documents on HPs website but it isn't clear to me > how to boot the cdrom correctly, there is root 1 mentioned. > What bootflag must entered, B/R5:10000000? > ..in the case w/o the R5:10000000 I get a $ Promt finally (here I habe to > read further). With the bootflag the System is complaining that dua3 is > write protected (it is the cdrom)... > > What's the correct way to install VMS on that machine? > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Aug 7 14:10:52 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 15:10:52 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I suppose so ... in the process of building various little single-board-computers based on historical microprocessors, I end up using their corresponding assembly languages, some of which are probably no longer really in commercial use. Mostly on UNIX I just use C (or Perl, or ...) but on other platforms where other languages are available, like on VMS, or on platforms where C (or even Pascal) is _not_ available (say, MTS or MVS 3.8J on Hercules) I like to play around with some of the older languages, that you might not see used so much anymore ... Pascal, LISP, FORTRAN, PL/I, SNOBOL, of course good ole BASIC ... whatever's available and I have some reference materials for (I enjoy collecting good old EE/CS textbooks as well) ... mostly these are little "toy" programs though, just to run the compilers through their paces and see the OS run a few executables ... I'm not doing any real development in FORTRAN or PL/I :O Best, Sean On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Eric Christopherson < echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in > languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer > in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? > > -- > Eric Christopherson > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Aug 7 15:32:28 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 16:32:28 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All the young kids are using Python and PHP these days! :O Best, Sean On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 4:24 PM, David Cooper wrote: > I program in Perl every day at work. I suppose that puts me in that > category. :) > > > -----Original Message----- From: Eric Christopherson > Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 9:18 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Classic programming > > > Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in > languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer > in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? > > -- > Eric Christopherson > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Aug 7 15:39:30 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 16:39:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classic programming Message-ID: <20150807203930.05FD818C188@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Christopherson > I should check TECO out some day. Only if you want to damage your brain. Have you ever _actually looked_ at any TECO code? If not, try this: http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/09/22/worlds-greatest-pathological-l-1/ (It is not without reason that it is described as 'looking like line noise'.) Noel From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Aug 7 15:47:04 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 13:47:04 -0700 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C51948.40305@shiresoft.com> I view the language issue along the same lines as the OS (or monitor, or ???) that exists on the various classic computers. With some notable exceptions, I tend not to run Unix on my classic HW but one of the original OS's that the HW was shipped with. The same goes for programming languages. I don't want to write everything in "C". In some cases C imposes too heavy a burden (MVS 3.8 J for example) and isn't in line with the "flavor" of the machine and/or OS. In the case of my Symbolics machines, even though there is a C compiler for it, my question is "why?". It's a LISP machine, you should write in LISP (after all even the OS is written in LISP). When I'm doing programming, I choose the language that's most appropriate. Not only based upon the problem at hand but the environment/machine it's intended to be used on. For example, for my MEM11 project, I'm using a uP that is designed to run Forth, so I'm writing everything in Forth (including the simulator). It turns out to be really efficient and low overhead. I can't imagine what it would take for a C-runtime to provide the environment that I currently have with Forth. TTFN - Guy On 8/7/15 12:10 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > I suppose so ... in the process of building various little > single-board-computers based on historical microprocessors, I end up using > their corresponding assembly languages, some of which are probably no > longer really in commercial use. > > Mostly on UNIX I just use C (or Perl, or ...) but on other platforms where > other languages are available, like on VMS, or on platforms where C (or > even Pascal) is _not_ available (say, MTS or MVS 3.8J on Hercules) I like > to play around with some of the older languages, that you might not see > used so much anymore ... Pascal, LISP, FORTRAN, PL/I, SNOBOL, of course > good ole BASIC ... whatever's available and I have some reference materials > for (I enjoy collecting good old EE/CS textbooks as well) ... mostly these > are little "toy" programs though, just to run the compilers through their > paces and see the OS run a few executables ... I'm not doing any real > development in FORTRAN or PL/I :O > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Eric Christopherson < > echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in >> languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer >> in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? >> >> -- >> Eric Christopherson >> From microfilm at microfilm.kscoxmail.com Fri Aug 7 15:51:41 2015 From: microfilm at microfilm.kscoxmail.com (Shaun Halstead) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 15:51:41 -0500 Subject: ISA Pertec controllers available In-Reply-To: <01744D42DABB47619D2400CAA6FACBFB@NOTEBOOK> References: <01744D42DABB47619D2400CAA6FACBFB@NOTEBOOK> Message-ID: <55C51A5D.3050705@microfilm.kscoxmail.com> I have two Computer Logics PCTD-III Pertec 8-bit ISA interface boards available. I have no software or docs to go with them, though I should have at least one cable set. From what I can gather from past discussions of these cards (h/t Chuck G.), they require driver-supplied firmware. They've been on the shelf the entire 19 years I've been with my company. Cards are offered as-is, $20 + shipping for the pair. Shipping via USPS or FedEx, your choice. --Shaun From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 7 15:59:02 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 13:59:02 -0700 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <55C51948.40305@shiresoft.com> References: <55C51948.40305@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <55C51C16.1080402@sydex.com> Sometimes a language doesn't appear to be "mainstream" until you dig deeper. For example, Forth used in OpenBoot. Heckuva great idea. I haven't the faintest idea of where OpenBoot stands now. --Chuck ------------------------------------------------------------- "The first thing we do, let's kill all the spammers." From isking at uw.edu Fri Aug 7 16:48:56 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 14:48:56 -0700 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: <55C3A4A3.9010704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <55C1359D.3020205@gmail.com> <3C7A1EE7-9FB8-41D4-A3E4-8E74658F0033@swri.edu> <020e01d0cfa7$ce4c9d80$6ae5d880$@gmail.com> <55C3A4A3.9010704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: There are establishments here in the US that sell 'pounders' of 'beer', i.e. 16oz. glasses. The reference is usually to something that only loosely resembles beer - we're back to sex-in-a-canoe jokes here. Establishments that server real beer most often refer to them as pints, although there is evidence some are only 14oz. On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 11:17 AM, ben wrote: > On 8/6/2015 4:30 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 5 August 2015 at 20:25, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> "A pint is a pound, the world around." is no longer true. >>> >> >> Never was. You always did use weird pints. They were *our* bloody >> silly measure, until we adopted something more sensible and easier to >> use... >> >> And *nobody* else uses pounds, Fahrenheit or MM-DD-YY. Not in about 2 >> generations, mostly. Often more. >> >> I do! > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Aug 7 17:09:21 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 00:09:21 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-07 18:22, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hmm.. it seems that the pdf is containing thestuff that I've already read > somewhere on HP's website. > > There are two possibilities: > > > [>>> B/R5:10000000 DKA400: > [ > [ > [If you are booting from an InfoServer device, enter a command that > [specifies root 1. For example, on a VAX 6000 computer, enter: > [ > [ > [>>> B/R5:10000100/X:D/B:6 ET0 > [ > > Ok, the first should fit with an abbrevation: > > B/R5:10000000 DUA3 > > (I have a VAX4000-300 not an VS4000/90, nor I have an VAX6000..) > > and this boots until the message with the write protected disk > dua3..(sorry, don't have it handy..) and than the system hangs. > > When I simply boot B dua3 the install system asks for a date > and I finally get a "$". Thats all.. That is all that is to be expected. Not sure what you were expecting, but if you read the VMS installation manuals, you will see that this is where you should end up. And at this point, you run BACKUP to restore the initial saveset to a disk, and then you boot that disk to continue. > That's why I've asked what todo.. And now you know. :-) Johnny > > Regards, > > Holm > > > > > > Jerry Weiss wrote: > >> Follow the OpenVMS VAX Version 7.3 Upgrade and Installation Manual >> AA?QSBQD?TE http://h20565.www2.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c04623149&lang=en-us&cc=us >> >> Section 3 takes you through the basics on how create a new disk. I used the same procedure just last week. >> >> >> Good Luck. >> >> >>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I've got an VAX4000/300 eqipped with an TK70, 2x RF31, 1xRF71 disks, >>> and an CQD-200/TM. >>> I've connected an toshiba Xm5701 drive to the SCSI Bus and the machine sses >>> it as DUA3. I have a VMS7.3 CDROM and want to install it on one of the >>> disks. >>> I've read some documents on HPs website but it isn't clear to me >>> how to boot the cdrom correctly, there is root 1 mentioned. >>> What bootflag must entered, B/R5:10000000? >>> ..in the case w/o the R5:10000000 I get a $ Promt finally (here I habe to >>> read further). With the bootflag the System is complaining that dua3 is >>> write protected (it is the cdrom)... >>> >>> What's the correct way to install VMS on that machine? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Holm >>> -- >>> Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, >>> Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 >>> www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 >>> > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From spc at conman.org Fri Aug 7 17:11:09 2015 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 18:11:09 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150807221109.GA5989@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Eric Christopherson once stated: > Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in > languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer > in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? I am to some degree, although I like to look at such langauges for ideas and not to use. I find K&R C (pre-ANSI) too horrible a language to use [1] but even in worse languages there are some neat (if also horrifying) ideas [2]. But I'm also interested in older software as well. One of my "when I get around to it" projects is playing with the Viola web browser [4]. Written in the early 90s, it *barely* compiles on a 32-bit Unix system and while it may compile on a 64-bit system, it's unrunnable [5]. It has a scripting language built in, but it is its own scripting language that is quite annoying to actually use. I've been trying to update the code so it will at least run on modern systems, and then next, replace the scripting language with something more reasonable. My current Holy Grail piece of software would be Synthesis OS---an operating system written in assembly (in 1991) that can recompile and specialize itself on the fly [6]---basically, a program can request and get custom system calls to use. And at the time, it ran SunOS binaries faster than SunOS on the same hardware. Incredible stuff. -spc (Today, Synthesis OS would be considered a JIT OS ... ) [1] #define bitblt(s,r,d,p,c) (*((void(*)())0x430d6))(s,r,d,p,c) Among other horrors ... [2] Like INRAC. And sadly, my own blog entry [3] on the language contains probably the most information about it on the web today. [3] http://boston.conman.org/2008/06/18.2 [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ViolaWWW [5] Because integers and pointers will always be 32 bits right? [6] http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 7 16:54:24 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 14:54:24 -0700 Subject: ISA Pertec controllers available In-Reply-To: <55C51A5D.3050705@microfilm.kscoxmail.com> References: <01744D42DABB47619D2400CAA6FACBFB@NOTEBOOK> <55C51A5D.3050705@microfilm.kscoxmail.com> Message-ID: <55C52910.8000908@sydex.com> On 08/07/2015 01:51 PM, Shaun Halstead wrote: > > I have two Computer Logics PCTD-III Pertec 8-bit ISA interface boards > available. I have no software or docs to go with them, though I > should have at least one cable set. From what I can gather from past > discussions of these cards (h/t Chuck G.), they require > driver-supplied firmware. They've been on the shelf the entire 19 > years I've been with my company. Cards are offered as-is, $20 + > shipping for the pair. Shipping via USPS or FedEx, your choice. Yup, they use an early FPGA, whose configuration information is downloaded from a DOS driver. I'm sure the driver code is around somewhere in form of Chi Corp's DOS Ninetrack software. But without it, the cards are strictly decorative. Probably perfect for a slower drive, such as the Qualstar 105x series, but unsuitable for the fast (75-150 ips) streamers. Other than the FPGA configuration memory, the only memory on-board is a 256 byte FIFO. The obvious limitation is that these really are 8-bit ISA boards. I might have the software somewhere, but no promises. --Chuck From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Fri Aug 7 17:31:51 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 23:31:51 +0100 Subject: ISA Pertec controllers available In-Reply-To: <55C52910.8000908@sydex.com> References: <01744D42DABB47619D2400CAA6FACBFB@NOTEBOOK> <55C51A5D.3050705@microfilm.kscoxmail.com> <55C52910.8000908@sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi Shaun, I'd be interested in the pertec board if the drivers ever show up. Cheers, -Tom On 7 August 2015 at 22:54, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/07/2015 01:51 PM, Shaun Halstead wrote: > >> >> I have two Computer Logics PCTD-III Pertec 8-bit ISA interface boards >> available. I have no software or docs to go with them, though I >> should have at least one cable set. From what I can gather from past >> discussions of these cards (h/t Chuck G.), they require >> driver-supplied firmware. They've been on the shelf the entire 19 >> years I've been with my company. Cards are offered as-is, $20 + >> shipping for the pair. Shipping via USPS or FedEx, your choice. >> > > > Yup, they use an early FPGA, whose configuration information is downloaded > from a DOS driver. I'm sure the driver code is around somewhere in form of > Chi Corp's DOS Ninetrack software. But without it, the cards are strictly > decorative. > > Probably perfect for a slower drive, such as the Qualstar 105x series, but > unsuitable for the fast (75-150 ips) streamers. Other than the FPGA > configuration memory, the only memory on-board is a 256 byte FIFO. > > The obvious limitation is that these really are 8-bit ISA boards. I might > have the software somewhere, but no promises. > > --Chuck > From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Fri Aug 7 18:03:45 2015 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 09:03:45 +1000 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 8 Aug 2015, at 4:15 am, Paul Koning wrote: > For other languages: I?ve been maintaining the Cyber1 PLATO system from the start of that project, which involves periodic work in TUTOR. And I?m working on recovering software for the Electrologica EL-X8 and EL-X1 systems; the former was a particularly good ALGOL system and the latter the host for the first ever ALGOL compiler. We?ve had some programming discussions here, mainly about ALGOL: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/retro-b5500 Our attention has shifted recently though to the Burroughs B6700 and discussion about B5500 has gone a little quiet, but there is still much to explore and re-discover (see the thread about the GTL ALGOL compiler for example - trapped somewhere on a CUBE tape). From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 7 19:49:34 2015 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 17:49:34 -0700 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1438994974.33439.YahooMailBasic@web184702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> On Fri, 8/7/15, Eric Christopherson wrote: > To Brian L. Stuart: What separates MCPL from CPL and BCPL? > I'm not finding much about it, although it looks like it has the benefit of > nice pattern matching. The pattern matching mechanism was, I think, the big thing he was experimenting with when he created it. He describes it as arising from his experience developing BCPL combined with teaching ML, C, and Prolog. When writing the simulator, it felt like there were also elements of similarity to AWK. I find I'm quite liking it. > Ah... text editors are another big interest of mine. That's very cool. > I should check TECO out some day. Back when I was an undergrad, my roommates and I were TAs for the freshman programming course. We had several students who accidentally deleted their source file but still had their listing file. So one of my roommates wrote a set of TECO macros that converted the listing file back into the original FORTRAN source. Fun stuff. BLS From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Aug 7 20:37:12 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 21:37:12 -0400 Subject: Lucas-Lehmer Test (Was Classic programming) In-Reply-To: <201508071751.NAA07552@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <55C4EA1C.3000109@compsys.to> <201508071751.NAA07552@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <55C55D48.7060502@compsys.to> >Mouse wrote: >>Quite recently, I have a requirement to square very large unsigned >>integers up to one billion bits [...] >> >Are you aware of faster-than-n^2 multiplication algorithms like > > Actually, when the algorithm is to square a value, the difficulty reduces to ONLY ( n^2 + n ) / 2 which is effectively half of the multiply instructions required when two different numbers are multiplied. Unfortunately, as you point out, that still takes until half way to the heat-death of the universe. IN ADDITION, it is the Lucas-Lehmer primality test: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas%E2%80%93Lehmer_primality_test that I wish to implement (so I can understand the details along with being able to enjoy the challenge). So the series of one billion bit multiplications must be repeated (one billion - 2) times. >Karatsuba, Toom-Cook, or Sch?nhage-Strassen? If not, you might want to > > I have already done that for all three: Karatsuba algorithm - n1.585 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karatsuba_algorithm Toom-Cook multiplication - n1.465 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toom-Cook_multiplication One aspect of the Toom-3 algorithm that needs to be solved is the requirement to divide by 3. There are a number of other possible Toom-Cook algorithms which divide the initial value into three or more parts which may also be even faster and might not require division, but only a shift. I understand both the Karatsuba and Toom-Cook algorithms sufficiently to EVENTUALLY implement both at this point. However, if I use RT-11 under Ersatz-11 as the starting point, it is highly probable that it will be necessary to use a DLL that is written in x86 assembler for the actual implementation of the subroutine to square, subtract two, then take the modulus. If I can perform each squaring operation in just one second, it should take only about 5 years to perform the squaring one billion times. One possible improvement might be to activate a second DLL which executes as a 64-bit program which is called by the 32-bit DLL. Since I expect to have a 64-bit Win7 system some time this month which I hope to be able to use to run Ersatz-11 in 32-bit mode, that MIGHT be possible. Can anyone who reads this comment on IF it is possible to have an additional thread spawned by a 32-bit DLL running under 64-bit Win7 which will execute as a 64-bit DLL? Since there is a single 32-bit value which needs to be passed to the 64-bit DLL and a single YES / NO result passed back, that might be a possible solution which might reduce the execution time by a factor of four. Sch?nhage-Strassen algorithm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%B6nhage%E2%80%93Strassen_algorithm Unfortunately, the Sch?nhage-Strassen algorithm is still beyond my capability. However, I hope to master it eventually and implement the code. >look into them; if you're working with numbers that large, such things >can make the difference between "practical" and "might finish before >the heat-death of the universe if we're lucky"...though, admittedly, >for just simple squaring it's probably not all _that_ bad. > If anyone can comment on my question regarding the spawning of a 64-bit DLL from a 32-bit DLL running under a 64-bit Win7, that would be appreciated!!!!!! Also, a link to information about how to implement the Sch?nhage-Strassen algorithm would also be very much appreciated. Jerome Fine From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Aug 7 20:38:56 2015 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 22:38:56 -0300 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am writing this in Celeste, which is the email app in the Squeak Smalltalk programming language and system. The way you normally use Smalltalk is to save a snapshot (called an "image file" in Squeak) of your full working environment and which you can later restore to have everything back exactly as you had left it. Basically a memory dump, like when you hibernate a laptop. Or a Unix core dump file. Other languages have used this concept, such as APL workspaces and several Lisp implementation. The interesting thing about Squeak (and variations like Pharo and Cuis) is that in 1976 a special tool called SystemTracer was created that would run inside a given system and spit out a modified version of the snapshot. This allowed a Smalltalk-74 system to save its state in the very different Smalltalk-76 format (in -74 classes weren't objects while in -76 they were, for example). Smalltalk-76 was modified to be Smalltalk-78, then Smalltalk-80, then Apple Smalltalk and, in 1996, Squeak (while Apple Smalltalk was 16 bits with an object table and black and white, Squeak was 32 bits with direct pointers and color). The point of all this is that there are objects in the system I am typing this on which have been copied over and over with a few transformations all the way back from 1976. That makes it one of the oldest "living" computing systems around and still in use. Smalltalk: we put the class in classic! -- Jecel From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Aug 7 20:42:41 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 20:42:41 -0500 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <4057DCB9-4229-47F8-BB47-AA87FC2FB705@fozztexx.com> References: <4057DCB9-4229-47F8-BB47-AA87FC2FB705@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: <55C55E91.8010803@pico-systems.com> > On Aug 7, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > >> Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in >> languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer >> in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? > Well, I wrote a very big program in 1996 or so in Borland Turbo Pascal. I later updated it in Turbo Pascal for Windows. Later, I ran it on a Linux host using VMWare and Win 2K, but didn't have a way to make any updates. Then, mercifully, fpc came out, specifically for porting old Borland and DEC Pascal programs to the native Linux environment. (I have used the p2c translator for very small programs, but had zero confidence it could handle a major program.) fpc worked AMAZINGLY well at handling a complex set of Pascal files with units and separate compilation. Once I got it running, I fixed a few problems that had been there for some time. This program is a Gerber file to raster converter that I wrote originally for my laser photoplotter. The original version generated plots directly to the plotter using an ISA-bus DMA card under Windows 95. It was all user-mode code and programmed the DMA controller chip. When I moved to 32-bit Windows, it was impossible to determine the physical address of the data buffer, so what I did was create a raster file on Win 2K, and then send the file to the Win 95 computer for plotting. The advantage of the Win 2K environment is HUGELY larger memory space, which was always extremely tight on the Win 95 system. The program has bitmaps of all the defined apertures in memory, and they add up. Since the Win 95 computer was eventually going to die, I replaced it with a Beagle Bone computer, and have a filter that run-length compresses the raw raster output. The Beagle Bone's PRU microcontroller uncompresses the run-length compressed data in real time as it is spoon-feeding the plotter and simulating the old DMA card. It has to feed a pixel to the plotter every 5 us. Well, kind of went off on a tangent there, but that's a case where a really old program got renewed, cleaned up and prepared for another couple decades of life. Jon From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 22:27:51 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 20:27:51 -0700 Subject: ISA Pertec controllers available In-Reply-To: References: <01744D42DABB47619D2400CAA6FACBFB@NOTEBOOK> <55C51A5D.3050705@microfilm.kscoxmail.com> <55C52910.8000908@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Tom Moss wrote: > Hi Shaun, > > I'd be interested in the pertec board if the drivers ever show up. > > Cheers, > -Tom I believe the same Chi Outright real mode DOS software works for both the Computer Logics PCTD-III and the PCTD-16. I have used that software and the companion TSR driver with good results with a PCTD-16. I wrote some simple applications to use the TSR driver to read physical tapes into .TAP files and to write .TAP files out to physical tapes and that worked well with the PCTD-16. If I remember correctly I was able to get the Outright software to at least appear to work with the PCTD-III, but for some unknown reason I couldn't get the PCTD-III and the TSR driver to work as expected with my applications. I should still have a PCTD-III here along with more than one PCTD-16 but it would probably be a while before I got around to poking at them again to verify if I remember the situation correctly. -Glen From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 7 23:35:29 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 21:35:29 -0700 Subject: ISA Pertec controllers available In-Reply-To: References: <01744D42DABB47619D2400CAA6FACBFB@NOTEBOOK> <55C51A5D.3050705@microfilm.kscoxmail.com> <55C52910.8000908@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C58711.6000705@sydex.com> On 08/07/2015 08:27 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > I should still have a PCTD-III here along with more than one PCTD-16 > but it would probably be a while before I got around to poking at > them again to verify if I remember the situation correctly. I recall that some years ago, I spoke with a fellow from Chi Corp, who barely remembered the thing. (Chi did not make them--they were done by a Canadian outfit). He did warn that the cards are somewhat sensitive to CPU speed, so you may want to install it in the slowest PC that you own. --Chuck From scaron at umich.edu Fri Aug 7 15:53:41 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 16:53:41 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <20150807203930.05FD818C188@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150807203930.05FD818C188@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Yikes, that looks like more "fun" than even MVS JCL ... it'll definitely help you win an obfuscated programming contest :O The more I play with the truly older machines (emulations, mostly, to be honest) I have really gained a new respect for how difficult and time-consuming it must have been "back in the days" to accomplish what we consider to be fairly straightforward tasks nowadays ... just to key in, correct, compile, run and obtain output for even a rather simple program can sometimes be a fairly involved process ... not to mention, the emulations are often much faster than the original systems, as well. Best, Sean On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 4:39 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Eric Christopherson > > > I should check TECO out some day. > > Only if you want to damage your brain. Have you ever _actually looked_ at > any > TECO code? If not, try this: > > > http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/09/22/worlds-greatest-pathological-l-1/ > > (It is not without reason that it is described as 'looking like line > noise'.) > > Noel > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Aug 7 15:58:46 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 16:58:46 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <55C51948.40305@shiresoft.com> References: <55C51948.40305@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: +1. This is my philosophy as well. If I can run something besides UNIX on a machine, I will, and if I can program in something besides C, I will often like to take the time out to play (although if I'm actually trying to "do" something, I'll most likely do it in C because I'm most comfortable there) ... Not that I don't like UNIX, it's a fine system and wrangling it is a fine career but there are plenty of machines that will run it; the great variety in it is one of the things I love most about historical computing. Best, Sean On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I view the language issue along the same lines as the OS (or monitor, or > ???) that exists on > the various classic computers. With some notable exceptions, I tend not > to run Unix on my > classic HW but one of the original OS's that the HW was shipped with. The > same goes for > programming languages. I don't want to write everything in "C". In some > cases C imposes > too heavy a burden (MVS 3.8 J for example) and isn't in line with the > "flavor" of the machine > and/or OS. In the case of my Symbolics machines, even though there is a C > compiler for it, > my question is "why?". It's a LISP machine, you should write in LISP > (after all even the OS is > written in LISP). > > When I'm doing programming, I choose the language that's most > appropriate. Not only based > upon the problem at hand but the environment/machine it's intended to be > used on. For > example, for my MEM11 project, I'm using a uP that is designed to run > Forth, so I'm writing > everything in Forth (including the simulator). It turns out to be really > efficient and low > overhead. I can't imagine what it would take for a C-runtime to provide > the environment > that I currently have with Forth. > > TTFN - Guy > > > On 8/7/15 12:10 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> I suppose so ... in the process of building various little >> single-board-computers based on historical microprocessors, I end up using >> their corresponding assembly languages, some of which are probably no >> longer really in commercial use. >> >> Mostly on UNIX I just use C (or Perl, or ...) but on other platforms where >> other languages are available, like on VMS, or on platforms where C (or >> even Pascal) is _not_ available (say, MTS or MVS 3.8J on Hercules) I like >> to play around with some of the older languages, that you might not see >> used so much anymore ... Pascal, LISP, FORTRAN, PL/I, SNOBOL, of course >> good ole BASIC ... whatever's available and I have some reference >> materials >> for (I enjoy collecting good old EE/CS textbooks as well) ... mostly these >> are little "toy" programs though, just to run the compilers through their >> paces and see the OS run a few executables ... I'm not doing any real >> development in FORTRAN or PL/I :O >> >> Best, >> >> Sean >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Eric Christopherson < >> echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in >>> languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer >>> in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? >>> >>> -- >>> Eric Christopherson >>> >>> > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Aug 7 17:21:25 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 18:21:25 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <20150807221109.GA5989@brevard.conman.org> References: <20150807221109.GA5989@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: I love this list, I always learn so many interesting things ... reading the article on SynthesisOS now; a few pages in, it sounds like an early attempt at building a reflective operating system? Neat. I wonder if the Quamachine still exists? :O Best, Sean On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:11 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Eric Christopherson once stated: > > Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in > > languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer > > in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? > > I am to some degree, although I like to look at such langauges for ideas > and not to use. I find K&R C (pre-ANSI) too horrible a language to > use [1] but even in worse languages there are some neat (if also > horrifying) > ideas [2]. > > But I'm also interested in older software as well. One of my "when I get > around to it" projects is playing with the Viola web browser [4]. Written > in the early 90s, it *barely* compiles on a 32-bit Unix system and while it > may compile on a 64-bit system, it's unrunnable [5]. It has a scripting > language built in, but it is its own scripting language that is quite > annoying to actually use. I've been trying to update the code so it will at > least run on modern systems, and then next, replace the scripting language > with something more reasonable. > > My current Holy Grail piece of software would be Synthesis OS---an > operating system written in assembly (in 1991) that can recompile and > specialize itself on the fly [6]---basically, a program can request and get > custom system calls to use. And at the time, it ran SunOS binaries faster > than SunOS on the same hardware. Incredible stuff. > > -spc (Today, Synthesis OS would be considered a JIT OS ... ) > > [1] #define bitblt(s,r,d,p,c) (*((void(*)())0x430d6))(s,r,d,p,c) > > Among other horrors ... > > [2] Like INRAC. And sadly, my own blog entry [3] on the language > contains probably the most information about it on the web today. > > [3] http://boston.conman.org/2008/06/18.2 > > [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ViolaWWW > > [5] Because integers and pointers will always be 32 bits right? > > [6] http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/ > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 00:48:19 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 17:48:19 +1200 Subject: IBM panel... warning Message-ID: Some of you may remember an IBM System/370 Model 155 panel on eBay a couple of months ago. Something recently prompted me to look that auction up again, and after reading this I decided to warn the list in case it shows up again. The buyer left the following feedback: SCAM! didnt sell 4 enough $, wanted $3000 more outside of eBay after I paid him! IBM System 370 Mainframe front panel (#181771383679)US $727.00 Be warned. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Aug 8 01:21:07 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 08:21:07 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150808062106.GA99838@beast.freibergnet.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-07 18:22, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > >Hmm.. it seems that the pdf is containing thestuff that I've already read > >somewhere on HP's website. > > > >There are two possibilities: > > > > > >[>>> B/R5:10000000 DKA400: > >[ > >[ > >[If you are booting from an InfoServer device, enter a command that > >[specifies root 1. For example, on a VAX 6000 computer, enter: > >[ > >[ > >[>>> B/R5:10000100/X:D/B:6 ET0 > >[ > > > >Ok, the first should fit with an abbrevation: > > > > B/R5:10000000 DUA3 > > > >(I have a VAX4000-300 not an VS4000/90, nor I have an VAX6000..) > > > >and this boots until the message with the write protected disk > >dua3..(sorry, don't have it handy..) and than the system hangs. > > > >When I simply boot B dua3 the install system asks for a date > >and I finally get a "$". Thats all.. > > That is all that is to be expected. Not sure what you were expecting, > but if you read the VMS installation manuals, you will see that this is > where you should end up. Hmm.. I'm not sure if you read what I previously wrote..I can hear you laughing but I don't think that this is really helpful.. What I've expected was an behavior like that described in the manuals, the manuals are telling stuff with boot flags that seems to not applicable here. W/o any flag I end up at the prompt of a standalone backup wich is fine for me.. I'm starting the image restore and now I have a problem that the DSSI disks are "not software enabled". , > > And at this point, you run BACKUP to restore the initial saveset to a > disk, and then you boot that disk to continue. > > >That's why I've asked what todo.. > > And now you know. :-) > > Johnny Shure? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Aug 8 03:15:42 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 09:15:42 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 07 Aug 2015 18:11:09 -0400" <20150807221109.GA5989@brevard.conman.org> References: Message-ID: <01PPAPFS5QHI0084J5@beyondthepale.ie> On Fri, 07 Aug 2015 at 18:11:09 -0400, Sean Conner wrote: > > But I'm also interested in older software as well. One of my "when I get > around to it" projects is playing with the Viola web browser [4]. Written > in the early 90s, it *barely* compiles on a 32-bit Unix system and while it > may compile on a 64-bit system, it's unrunnable [5]. It has a scripting > language built in, but it is its own scripting language that is quite > annoying to actually use. I've been trying to update the code so it will at > least run on modern systems, and then next, replace the scripting language > with something more reasonable. > > > [5] Because integers and pointers will always be 32 bits right? > The DEC C / Compaq C / HP C or whatever it is called this week compiler on Alpha or IA64 VMS has 32 bits ints and pointers can be 32 or 64 bits. I think the similarly named compiler on OSF1 / Digital Unix / Tru64 or whatever that is called this week offers the same facilites. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Aug 8 03:43:15 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 09:43:15 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 08 Aug 2015 08:21:07 +0200" <20150808062106.GA99838@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 at 08:21:07 +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > I'm starting the image restore and now I have a problem that the DSSI disks > are "not software enabled". > I'm not sure but I think I recall getting that error when trying to mount a disk that had media problems :-( It probably doesn't help much but the online help says this: VOLINV, volume is not software enabled Facility: SYSTEM, System Services Explanation: The volume valid bit is not set for the volume. All physical and logical I/O operations will be rejected until the bit is set. User Action: Check for a programming error. Verify that the volume is mounted and loaded. Check to see that the power is on before retrying the program. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jsw at ieee.org Sat Aug 8 04:46:07 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 04:46:07 -0500 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <497D665A-C321-4DF0-A95B-0BCFC82B7388@ieee.org> If the saveset restoration and the complex bootstrap both fail, suggest you investigate the following. 1) Make sure the SCSI bus that is used by the CD-ROM has proper termination and termination power. 2) Create/obtain a new image CD. Your image may be corruption or the CD-ROM may have trouble reading it. > On Aug 8, 2015, at 3:43 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 at 08:21:07 +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >> >> I'm starting the image restore and now I have a problem that the DSSI disks >> are "not software enabled". >> > > I'm not sure but I think I recall getting that error when trying to mount a > disk that had media problems :-( > > It probably doesn't help much but the online help says this: > > VOLINV, volume is not software enabled > > Facility: SYSTEM, System Services > > Explanation: The volume valid bit is not set for the volume. All physical > and logical I/O operations will be rejected until the bit is > set. > > User Action: Check for a programming error. Verify that the volume is > mounted and loaded. Check to see that the power is on before > retrying the program. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Aug 8 05:00:29 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 12:00:29 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20150808100029.GB16385@beast.freibergnet.de> Peter Coghlan wrote: > On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 at 08:21:07 +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > > I'm starting the image restore and now I have a problem that the DSSI disks > > are "not software enabled". > > > > I'm not sure but I think I recall getting that error when trying to mount a > disk that had media problems :-( Yes, so are the hints in the manuals. .. but I've erased and verified thoses disks with the Utilities on them (>>> set host/dup/DSSI/bus:0 0 params) and that verify came up w/o errors. I had one disk that would'nt spin up after power up and I've repaired that disk with an rubber hammer :-) (Reported that months before) ..but taht I'snt the disk I'm trying to install. I've used the RF Series Integrated Storage Element Users Guide (http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/dec94mds/rf72dug8.pdf) to do this and in this moment I've run Verify again: LBN Statistics: 0 Total Block(s) in error Complete ..Hmm So I think I missed one step, a logical format or so... on the other side I can find no hints what that could be.. My tries to install produces the same errors on the two RF31 disks, haven't tried to install on the RF71 but could do this, they are all empty. Regards, Holm > > It probably doesn't help much but the online help says this: > > VOLINV, volume is not software enabled > > Facility: SYSTEM, System Services > > Explanation: The volume valid bit is not set for the volume. All physical > and logical I/O operations will be rejected until the bit is > set. > > User Action: Check for a programming error. Verify that the volume is > mounted and loaded. Check to see that the power is on before > retrying the program. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Aug 8 05:04:00 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 12:04:00 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <497D665A-C321-4DF0-A95B-0BCFC82B7388@ieee.org> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <497D665A-C321-4DF0-A95B-0BCFC82B7388@ieee.org> Message-ID: <20150808100400.GC16385@beast.freibergnet.de> No Jerry, I don't think that the problems are related to the SCSI Bus or the CDR. I can't write to the DSSI disks, that is the problem. If thast problem persists I'll try to install to an additional SCSI disk next.. Regards, Holm Jerry Weiss wrote: > If the saveset restoration and the complex bootstrap both fail, suggest you investigate the following. > > 1) Make sure the SCSI bus that is used by the CD-ROM has proper termination and termination power. > > 2) Create/obtain a new image CD. Your image may be corruption or the CD-ROM may have trouble reading it. > > > > > > On Aug 8, 2015, at 3:43 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > > On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 at 08:21:07 +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > >> > >> I'm starting the image restore and now I have a problem that the DSSI disks > >> are "not software enabled". > >> > > > > I'm not sure but I think I recall getting that error when trying to mount a > > disk that had media problems :-( > > > > It probably doesn't help much but the online help says this: > > > > VOLINV, volume is not software enabled > > > > Facility: SYSTEM, System Services > > > > Explanation: The volume valid bit is not set for the volume. All physical > > and logical I/O operations will be rejected until the bit is > > set. > > > > User Action: Check for a programming error. Verify that the volume is > > mounted and loaded. Check to see that the power is on before > > retrying the program. > > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan. -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Aug 8 05:21:28 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 12:21:28 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <20150808100029.GB16385@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <20150808100029.GB16385@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20150808102128.GD16385@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 at 08:21:07 +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm starting the image restore and now I have a problem that the DSSI disks > > > are "not software enabled". > > > > > > > I'm not sure but I think I recall getting that error when trying to mount a > > disk that had media problems :-( > > Yes, so are the hints in the manuals. > .. but I've erased and verified thoses disks with the Utilities on them > (>>> set host/dup/DSSI/bus:0 0 params) > and that verify came up w/o errors. I had one disk that would'nt spin up > after power up and I've repaired that disk with an rubber hammer :-) > (Reported that months before) ..but taht I'snt the disk I'm trying to > install. > > I've used the RF Series Integrated Storage Element Users Guide > (http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/dec94mds/rf72dug8.pdf) > to do this and in this moment I've run Verify again: > > LBN Statistics: > 0 Total Block(s) in error > Complete > ..Hmm > > So I think I missed one step, a logical format or so... on the other side > I can find no hints what that could be.. > > My tries to install produces the same errors on the two RF31 disks, > haven't tried to install on the RF71 but could do this, they are all empty. > > Regards, > > Holm Tried the RF71 and it worked! After the successful backup the Backup asked for a "YES" if I would do additional actions and I've tried DIA0 agin wich resulted in the same errors. So I think I must have done something different wit that DSSI DUP utiliy. Any hints? Regards Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Aug 8 05:32:16 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 12:32:16 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <20150808062106.GA99838@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> <20150808062106.GA99838@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <55C5DAB0.4070302@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-08 08:21, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2015-08-07 18:22, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>> >>> Hmm.. it seems that the pdf is containing thestuff that I've already read >>> somewhere on HP's website. >>> >>> There are two possibilities: >>> >>> >>> [>>> B/R5:10000000 DKA400: >>> [ >>> [ >>> [If you are booting from an InfoServer device, enter a command that >>> [specifies root 1. For example, on a VAX 6000 computer, enter: >>> [ >>> [ >>> [>>> B/R5:10000100/X:D/B:6 ET0 >>> [ >>> >>> Ok, the first should fit with an abbrevation: >>> >>> B/R5:10000000 DUA3 >>> >>> (I have a VAX4000-300 not an VS4000/90, nor I have an VAX6000..) >>> >>> and this boots until the message with the write protected disk >>> dua3..(sorry, don't have it handy..) and than the system hangs. >>> >>> When I simply boot B dua3 the install system asks for a date >>> and I finally get a "$". Thats all.. >> >> That is all that is to be expected. Not sure what you were expecting, >> but if you read the VMS installation manuals, you will see that this is >> where you should end up. > > Hmm.. I'm not sure if you read what I previously wrote..I can hear you > laughing but I don't think that this is really helpful.. Well, I wasn't laughing, and apologies if it came across that way. However, I was slightly annoyed at your apparent success in getting where the documentation says you should get, and then all the experimentation with boot flags when you already reached the goal. > What I've expected was an behavior like that described in the manuals, > the manuals are telling stuff with boot flags that seems to not applicable > here. Correct. The boot flags are not applicable. When you get to the '$' prompt, you have succeeded. No point in futzing more. We could try to figure out what the effects of the boot flags are, and other possible things you could do from the CD, but that would be unrelated to installing VMS. > W/o any flag I end up at the prompt of a standalone backup > wich is fine for me.. Right. > I'm starting the image restore and now I have a problem that the DSSI disks > are "not software enabled". That is a different problem, and needs to be figured out with the DSSI disks. I assume you have not pushed in the write protect switches. You could connect to the disk drives, and check the status from that side. There are diagnostics you can run, and so on, on the disks. The VAX boot environment on your machine have, I believe, the ability to connect you to the disk drives. I can't remember the details, so you'll have to either search manuals, or ask online about that. My only actual recollection of when something like this can happen is when the drive decides that some data are unreliable on the disk, and it write protects itself, in order to give you time to recover. But since you want to do a clean install at this point, you would want to ignore this feature. I would hope the built in diagnostics could help you there, if this actually is the case. >> And at this point, you run BACKUP to restore the initial saveset to a >> disk, and then you boot that disk to continue. >> >>> That's why I've asked what todo.. >> >> And now you know. :-) >> >> Johnny > > Shure? Good. You know how to get to the '$' prompt. Thus, booting from the CD is accomplished, for the task of installing VMS. You now have a problem with the DSSI disks to solve, in order to install VMS. New problem, new questions. :-) Johnny > > Regards, > > Holm > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Aug 8 05:41:48 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 12:41:48 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <20150808100029.GB16385@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <20150808100029.GB16385@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <55C5DCEC.4050906@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-08 12:00, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Peter Coghlan wrote: > >> On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 at 08:21:07 +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> >>> >>> I'm starting the image restore and now I have a problem that the DSSI disks >>> are "not software enabled". >>> >> >> I'm not sure but I think I recall getting that error when trying to mount a >> disk that had media problems :-( > > Yes, so are the hints in the manuals. > .. but I've erased and verified thoses disks with the Utilities on them > (>>> set host/dup/DSSI/bus:0 0 params) > and that verify came up w/o errors. I had one disk that would'nt spin up > after power up and I've repaired that disk with an rubber hammer :-) > (Reported that months before) ..but taht I'snt the disk I'm trying to > install. > > I've used the RF Series Integrated Storage Element Users Guide > (http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/dec94mds/rf72dug8.pdf) > to do this and in this moment I've run Verify again: > > LBN Statistics: > 0 Total Block(s) in error > Complete > ..Hmm Ok. Good that you know how to get into the disks and play around. > So I think I missed one step, a logical format or so... on the other side > I can find no hints what that could be.. No. There is no hidden step. First of all, you need to understand the VMS installation as such do not require any such steps ever. A disk is a disk. It's a bunch of blocks. Reformatting the drive will not change that. What is on the blocks previously is also totally irrelevant to VMS. VMS will overwrite it anyway during installation. So, from an installation point of view, it's simple. You want to write the VMS filesystem and files onto the disk. That is all. Now, with all this said, I don't even believe you can do a physical reformat of DSSI disks. And I don't know what a "logical" reformat means, or what it would do. To install VMS, you need the machine, a distribution, and a target disk. You are having problems with the target disk, which is outside the scope of the installation. So we're at this point at a pure problem with your target disk. The DSSI disks are possibly the most complex disk subsystem I've ever seen. So I bet there are things in there I have no clue about. As others suggested, the best bet is the volume valid bit. And I suspect an erase might not clear that bit. It's a form of metadata for the disk that the drive keeps around. > My tries to install produces the same errors on the two RF31 disks, > haven't tried to install on the RF71 but could do this, they are all empty. Could be worth a try. Johnny > > Regards, > > Holm >> >> It probably doesn't help much but the online help says this: >> >> VOLINV, volume is not software enabled >> >> Facility: SYSTEM, System Services >> >> Explanation: The volume valid bit is not set for the volume. All physical >> and logical I/O operations will be rejected until the bit is >> set. >> >> User Action: Check for a programming error. Verify that the volume is >> mounted and loaded. Check to see that the power is on before >> retrying the program. >> >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan. > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Aug 8 05:43:54 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 12:43:54 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <20150808102128.GD16385@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <20150808100029.GB16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150808102128.GD16385@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <55C5DD6A.6050601@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-08 12:21, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Holm Tiffe wrote: > >> Peter Coghlan wrote: >> >>> On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 at 08:21:07 +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> I'm starting the image restore and now I have a problem that the DSSI disks >>>> are "not software enabled". >>>> >>> >>> I'm not sure but I think I recall getting that error when trying to mount a >>> disk that had media problems :-( >> >> Yes, so are the hints in the manuals. >> .. but I've erased and verified thoses disks with the Utilities on them >> (>>> set host/dup/DSSI/bus:0 0 params) >> and that verify came up w/o errors. I had one disk that would'nt spin up >> after power up and I've repaired that disk with an rubber hammer :-) >> (Reported that months before) ..but taht I'snt the disk I'm trying to >> install. >> >> I've used the RF Series Integrated Storage Element Users Guide >> (http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/dec94mds/rf72dug8.pdf) >> to do this and in this moment I've run Verify again: >> >> LBN Statistics: >> 0 Total Block(s) in error >> Complete >> ..Hmm >> >> So I think I missed one step, a logical format or so... on the other side >> I can find no hints what that could be.. >> >> My tries to install produces the same errors on the two RF31 disks, >> haven't tried to install on the RF71 but could do this, they are all empty. >> >> Regards, >> >> Holm > > Tried the RF71 and it worked! Good. > After the successful backup the Backup asked for a "YES" if I would do > additional actions and I've tried DIA0 agin wich resulted in the same > errors. As I would have expected. That drive didn't change just because you installed to another drive. > So I think I must have done something different wit that DSSI DUP utiliy. I disagree. The disk drive is in a state which you need to clear. The question is how you clear it. But since you now have VMS installed somewhere, I'm sure VMS can help you clear the state for that disk. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Sat Aug 8 06:12:28 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 12:12:28 +0100 Subject: ISA Pertec controllers available In-Reply-To: <55C58711.6000705@sydex.com> References: <01744D42DABB47619D2400CAA6FACBFB@NOTEBOOK> <55C51A5D.3050705@microfilm.kscoxmail.com> <55C52910.8000908@sydex.com> <55C58711.6000705@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 8 August 2015 at 05:35, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I recall that some years ago, I spoke with a fellow from Chi Corp, who > barely remembered the thing. (Chi did not make them--they were done by a > Canadian outfit). He did warn that the cards are somewhat sensitive to CPU > speed, so you may want to install it in the slowest PC that you own. > > I'll probably be using it with an XT or 286, which should fit the bill. From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Aug 8 06:20:50 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 13:20:50 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <55C5DD6A.6050601@update.uu.se> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <20150808100029.GB16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150808102128.GD16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C5DD6A.6050601@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55C5E612.60000@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-08 12:43, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-08 12:21, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Holm Tiffe wrote: >> >>> Peter Coghlan wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 at 08:21:07 +0200, Holm Tiffe >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm starting the image restore and now I have a problem that the >>>>> DSSI disks >>>>> are "not software enabled". >>>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not sure but I think I recall getting that error when trying to >>>> mount a >>>> disk that had media problems :-( >>> >>> Yes, so are the hints in the manuals. >>> .. but I've erased and verified thoses disks with the Utilities on them >>> (>>> set host/dup/DSSI/bus:0 0 params) >>> and that verify came up w/o errors. I had one disk that would'nt spin up >>> after power up and I've repaired that disk with an rubber hammer :-) >>> (Reported that months before) ..but taht I'snt the disk I'm trying to >>> install. >>> >>> I've used the RF Series Integrated Storage Element Users Guide >>> (http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/dec94mds/rf72dug8.pdf) >>> to do this and in this moment I've run Verify again: >>> >>> LBN Statistics: >>> 0 Total Block(s) in error >>> Complete >>> ..Hmm >>> >>> So I think I missed one step, a logical format or so... on the other >>> side >>> I can find no hints what that could be.. >>> >>> My tries to install produces the same errors on the two RF31 disks, >>> haven't tried to install on the RF71 but could do this, they are all >>> empty. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Holm >> >> Tried the RF71 and it worked! > > Good. > >> After the successful backup the Backup asked for a "YES" if I would do >> additional actions and I've tried DIA0 agin wich resulted in the same >> errors. > > As I would have expected. That drive didn't change just because you > installed to another drive. > >> So I think I must have done something different wit that DSSI DUP utiliy. > > I disagree. The disk drive is in a state which you need to clear. The > question is how you clear it. But since you now have VMS installed > somewhere, I'm sure VMS can help you clear the state for that disk. Now I'll be snarky, but just for a single paragraph, Holm... :-) Did you ever actually read the full ISE Users Guide manual? Check page 3-7 to 3-12. There you actually have the manual talk about both the software write protect and the hardware write protect. In this context I believe you are going to play with the hardware write protect. Ignore my previous comment about the write protect button, as the RF31 apparently do not have one. It's all done through firmware instead. Check if there are any other parameters that looks like they might be related as well. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Aug 8 06:50:59 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 13:50:59 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <55C5E612.60000@update.uu.se> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <20150808100029.GB16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150808102128.GD16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C5DD6A.6050601@update.uu.se> <55C5E612.60000@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150808115059.GA19740@beast.freibergnet.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: [..]i > > Now I'll be snarky, but just for a single paragraph, Holm... :-) > Did you ever actually read the full ISE Users Guide manual? Check page > 3-7 to 3-12. There you actually have the manual talk about both the > software write protect and the hardware write protect. In this context I > believe you are going to play with the hardware write protect. > > Ignore my previous comment about the write protect button, as the RF31 > apparently do not have one. It's all done through firmware instead. > > Check if there are any other parameters that looks like they might be > related as well. > > Johnny > > -- The drive means that it has no wrt_prot parameter Johnny.. Trust me, I'm try to read things that are available before I ask. I've learned about the drive internals since one of them was bad when I got the machine, none of them was booting something, had tried that first and so I ran erase and test utils in the drive. That was months before now. I know that the drive hat an error in his logs but I've cleared that error after running the drive tests and exerciser as described. (I think tere is a rubber bumper in the drive that glued on the head assembly and with google I found the "solution") There was no time previously to try to install VMS. No the thing is that I know almost nothing about VMS (and RSX11), I'm a unix guy as you know. People on the net organized almost w/o any effort from me that I got this VAX4000/300 to give it a good home, now I have some free time and I'm trying to install it after cleaning and repairing that !?$%%&/&%i!! PSU. In the meantime as I write this I have run the drvexr task for 20 minutes: 4188 operations completed. 75150 LBN blocks (512 bytes) read. 25050 LBN blocks (512 bytes) written. 81900 DBN blocks (512 bytes) read. 27300 DBN blocks (512 bytes) written. 75150 LBN blocks (512 bytes) read. 0 bytes in error (soft). 0 uncorrectable ECC errors. Complete. Have you an VMS mount command handy that I should try? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Aug 8 07:02:16 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 14:02:16 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <20150808115059.GA19740@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <20150808100029.GB16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150808102128.GD16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C5DD6A.6050601@update.uu.se> <55C5E612.60000@update.uu.se> <20150808115059.GA19740@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <55C5EFC8.7030101@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-08 13:50, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > [..]i >> >> Now I'll be snarky, but just for a single paragraph, Holm... :-) >> Did you ever actually read the full ISE Users Guide manual? Check page >> 3-7 to 3-12. There you actually have the manual talk about both the >> software write protect and the hardware write protect. In this context I >> believe you are going to play with the hardware write protect. >> >> Ignore my previous comment about the write protect button, as the RF31 >> apparently do not have one. It's all done through firmware instead. >> >> Check if there are any other parameters that looks like they might be >> related as well. >> >> Johnny >> >> -- > > The drive means that it has no wrt_prot parameter Johnny.. Ok. Too bad. That looked so very promising. :-( > Trust me, I'm try to read things that are available before I ask. I'll try assuming less. > I've learned about the drive internals since one of them was bad when I got > the machine, none of them was booting something, had tried that first and > so I ran erase and test utils in the drive. That was months before now. > I know that the drive hat an error in his logs but I've cleared that error > after running the drive tests and exerciser as described. > (I think tere is a rubber bumper in the drive that glued on the head > assembly and with google I found the "solution") > There was no time previously to try to install VMS. Ok. Understood. The rubber bumper thing is something that exists in several drives. Search for "sticky heads" and similar phrases if you want to see. > No the thing is that I know almost nothing about VMS (and RSX11), I'm a > unix guy as you know. Yeah... But it's fun to learn. :-) > People on the net organized almost w/o any effort from me that I got this > VAX4000/300 to give it a good home, now I have some free time and I'm > trying to install it after cleaning and repairing that !?$%%&/&%i!! PSU. Good work so far then. > In the meantime as I write this I have run the drvexr task for 20 minutes: > > 4188 operations completed. > 75150 LBN blocks (512 bytes) read. > 25050 LBN blocks (512 bytes) written. > 81900 DBN blocks (512 bytes) read. > 27300 DBN blocks (512 bytes) written. > 75150 LBN blocks (512 bytes) read. > 0 bytes in error (soft). > 0 uncorrectable ECC errors. > Complete. Seems like the drive is working fine. > Have you an VMS mount command handy that I should try? Did you try the commands mentioned in the manual? /OVER=ID is good to make MOUNT succeed independent of what labels are on the disk. /NOASSIST to make mount complete directly instead of sending a request to an operator. /WRITE or /NOWRITE for that part. /FOREIGN to mount disks that do not have a VMS filesystem on them. After that, I'd try to just read/write to the disk from VMS. Either it works, and you are happy. Or it fails, at which point you will have a good VMS error log to read from to find more details on what the problem is. VMS can also exercise the disk and analyze it. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Sat Aug 8 07:12:25 2015 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 08:12:25 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <1438966434.58300.YahooMailBasic@web184703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1438966434.58300.YahooMailBasic@web184703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <018601d0d1d3$7e00f140$7a02d3c0$@sc.rr.com> Hi Brian, I have often wondered what the inspiration for the C Language was. BCPL -> MCPL -> B -> c, quite an interesting list of languages. I had heard of B, but not BCPL and MCPL. Are there any write-ups, manuals or articles on those three languages still around? I'm currently trying to teach myself C as it relates to the 68HC11 Microcontroller. I'm using Peter Spasov's book "Microcontroller Technology" 5th edition as the text for my self-teaching efforts. Forth running on a homebrew 6809 system? How interesting! I have CamelForth v1.0 running on an Altera Cyclone II FPGA chip on a little blue FPGA Mini-Development board that is installed on a Multicomp PCB that is based on Grant Searle's Triple CPU Core Multicomp design. I'm trying to teach myself Forth as well, but it is slow going. A friend of mine, Neal Crook, adapted the VHDL Code a bit as well as adapting CamelForth to run on the Multicomp board. I'd like to find out the details about your homebrew 6809 system. I'm working on a Kipper SBC that is based on Grant's Simple6809 6 Chip 6809 Computer that I'm in the middle of troubleshooting and any ideas to make this Kipper SBC better is most appreciated. If you'd like further details, let me know and I'll put together some links. I'm quite sleep at the moment, but when I ran across your email, I had to respond! Take care my friend. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian L. Stuart > Funny you should mention that. I just recently wrote a PDP-8 simulator in MCPL. (It boots OS/8 as of about a week and a half ago). > MCPL is a language developed by Martin Richards who originated BCPL (which inspired Thompson's B which of course Ritchie > developed into C). I also spend some time here and there with Forth on a homebrew 6809 system. > > So the answer is yes, there are definitely people here who enjoy older languages. > > BLS From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Aug 8 08:14:57 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 09:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classic programming Message-ID: <20150808131457.1F89418C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Kip Koon > I have often wondered what the inspiration for the C Language was. BCPL > -> MCPL -> B -> c, quite an interesting list of languages. I don't think MCPL is in there; B was directly inspired by BCPL. See Dennis M. Ritchie, "The Development of the C Language": http://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html I got the impression from the previous discussion that MCPL was a later branch. Noel From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 09:17:39 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 10:17:39 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 at the RICM (Michael Thompson) Message-ID: Yesterday we started disassembling the CRT from the VR12. We picked out the silicone that attached the metal bezel to the front of the CRT. The exposed PVA was about 1/8" thick so we picked at the edges to remove as much as possible. We found that the shield was actually loose and were able to remove it without the usual heating or using nasty chemicals. Today we are forming a sheet of 0.093" LEXAN to replace the PVA. It should be a much better implosion shield than the original PVA. Picture here: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/_/rsrc/1439041136242/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-12/dec-pdp-12-restoration/VR14_Shield-removed.jpg We tested the high-voltage power supply and it works well. Maybe we can start reassembling and debugging the VR14 this afternoon. -- Michael Thompson From phil at ultimate.com Sat Aug 8 10:14:00 2015 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 11:14:00 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201508081514.t78FE0xh096160@ultimate.com> > Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in > languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer > in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? I don't think of it as "retrocomputing" per se, but I maintain a SNOBOL4 implementation: http://www.snobol4.org/csnobol4/ Mostly I write SNOBOL4 throw away programs for textual transformations. The biggest bit of programming I've done recently is a package to compile/install shared libraries for extending SNOBOL4. Phil From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 8 10:44:50 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 10:44:50 -0500 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <201508081514.t78FE0xh096160@ultimate.com> References: <201508081514.t78FE0xh096160@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <55C623F2.8080607@charter.net> If you like to play with classics like SNOBOL in their original form, then you can run SNOBOL and SPITBOL under the Hercules IBM mainframe emulator. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/files/SNOBOL4/ http://www.snobol4.com/spitbol360/ (These days I use Perl for the stuff I used to do in SNOBOL back when). JRJ On 8/8/2015 10:14 AM, Phil Budne wrote: >> Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in >> languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer >> in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? > > I don't think of it as "retrocomputing" per se, but I maintain a > SNOBOL4 implementation: http://www.snobol4.org/csnobol4/ > > Mostly I write SNOBOL4 throw away programs for textual > transformations. The biggest bit of programming I've done recently is > a package to compile/install shared libraries for extending SNOBOL4. > > Phil > From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Aug 8 12:15:57 2015 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 10:15:57 -0700 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <018601d0d1d3$7e00f140$7a02d3c0$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1439054157.13756.YahooMailBasic@web184703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> On Sat, 8/8/15, Kip Koon wrote: > I have often wondered what the inspiration for the C Language was.? BCPL -> > MCPL -> B -> c, quite an interesting list of languages. Kip, As Noel mentioned, MCPL wasn't part of the evolution; it actually is pretty recent compared to the other three. >? I had heard of B, but not BCPL and MCPL.? Are there any write-ups, > manuals or articles on those three languages still around?? Yes. There are copies of several different generations of BCPL reference manuals floating around online. I've come across at least three, not including the material in his current distribution of it: basically the original one by Richards, one by Gardner, and one done by XEROX. It's been a surprisingly widely used language for one that is so little known. The basic story is that Cambridge began developing a language calling it the Cambridge Programming Language. They joined forced with London University who was also working on language development and changed the name to Combined Programming Language. Richards defined a subset of the language with the intent that it be the implementation language for a CPL compiler and described it in his dissertation at Cambridge in '66. The following year he was at MIT and did the first implementation of this Basic CPL, or BCPL. This was at the same time as when the Multics project was in full force and Bell Labs was involved. If I'm not mistaken, there was a version of BCPL that ran on Multics, and I am guessing that's where Ken was exposed to it. When Bell Labs pulled out of Multics and Ken started playing around with the now famous "little used PDP-7" he created a language for it that was based on BCPL but I gather somewhat smaller because of the more limited resources on the PDP-7. That was B. Then Dennis decided to add types to B and the result was C. As near as I can tell, MCPL was something Richards was playing around with primarily about 10 years ago. I'm not sure, but from what I can tell, his most recent work has been on BCPL rather than MCPL, though as I mentioned, I'm finding I really like MCPL. Richards' pages for both languages are here: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/mr/BCPL.html http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/mr/MCPL.html Among the resources he has there is a rather extensive document on running BCPL on the Raspberry Pi. http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/mr/bcpl4raspi.pdf > Forth running on a homebrew 6809 system?? How interesting! Yeah, it started as a weekend diversion doing a paper design of a 6809 SBC, and I ended up doing a couple turns of the boards and have a few lying around I play with from time to time. One of them is dedicated to running a TU-58 emulator for one of my LSI-11s. > I'd like > to find out the details about your homebrew 6809 system.? I've got a rather skeletal collection of material on it here: http://www.cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/6809sbc/ > I'm working on a Kipper SBC that is based on Grant's > Simple6809 6 Chip 6809 Computer that I'm in the middle of > troubleshooting and any ideas to make this Kipper SBC better > is most appreciated.? The main things that you might find interesting here relative to Grant's are the inclusion of a microSD card for storage, a design and layout that allows for either a 6809 or 6809E (with appropriate jumpering), and a little MMU for using 128KB of memory mapped into the lower 48KB space in pages of 16KB. The whole thing ends up being 11 (or 12 if you're running on an E) chips: 1 - 6809 processor 1 - 6821 parallel interface 1 - 16550 UART 1 - MAX232 RS232 level converter 1 - 2864 EEPROM 1 - 628128 128KB static RAM 1 - 7404 2 - 74138 2 - 74153 The '138s are for address decoding as you'd expect. The '153s are the MMU. If you do get some material up on your system, I'd love to look at it. BLS From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 8 12:55:40 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 10:55:40 -0700 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <55C623F2.8080607@charter.net> References: <201508081514.t78FE0xh096160@ultimate.com> <55C623F2.8080607@charter.net> Message-ID: <55C6429C.6010803@sydex.com> On 08/08/2015 08:44 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > If you like to play with classics like SNOBOL in their original > form, then you can run SNOBOL and SPITBOL under the Hercules IBM > mainframe emulator. > > https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/files/SNOBOL4/ > http://www.snobol4.com/spitbol360/ > > (These days I use Perl for the stuff I used to do in SNOBOL back > when). Technically, however, isn't the language "SNOBOL4", not "SNOBOL"? At least that's the way my bought-in-1968 black covered copy has it. I've tried it on a 360/40 and a CDC 6600 (even in 1968, there existed several "ports' of it, including for the Univac 1108 and RCA Spectrola as well as one for the Intel 8080 under CP/M. As others have pointed out, there are better tools now. Does the code from Bell Labs SNOBOL 1, 2, or 3 still exist anywhere? --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 8 14:13:14 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 14:13:14 -0500 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <55C6429C.6010803@sydex.com> References: <201508081514.t78FE0xh096160@ultimate.com> <55C623F2.8080607@charter.net> <55C6429C.6010803@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C654CA.4000509@charter.net> I have always felt that the language name is SNOBOL, with multiple versions, kind of like FORTRAN II (which is what the 1410 had), FORTRAN IV, FORTRAN V, etc., but Griswold seems to think otherwise. ;) >From a CACM article "A history of the SNOBOL programming languages" from R. E. Griswold, the abstract reads: "Development of the SNOBOL language began in 1962. It was followed by SNOBOL2, SNOBOL3, and SNOBOL4. Except for SNOBOL2 and SNOBOL3 (which were closely related), the others differ substantially and hence are more properly considered separate languages than versions of one language. In this paper historical emphasis is placed on the original language, SNOBOL, although important aspects of the subsequent languages are covered." A version of SNOBOL3 is available in the 6th Edition Unix distribution, which is available online. (/usr/bin/sno). Source can be found at: http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Trees/V6/usr/source/sno/ More generally, PUPS has and bitsavers have UNIX stuff: 7th edition: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/ATT/ 6th edition: http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/ MINI-Unix (which ran on machines without memory management): http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/usdl/Mini-Unix/ JRJ On 8/8/2015 12:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/08/2015 08:44 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> If you like to play with classics like SNOBOL in their original >> form, then you can run SNOBOL and SPITBOL under the Hercules IBM >> mainframe emulator. >> >> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/files/SNOBOL4/ >> http://www.snobol4.com/spitbol360/ >> >> (These days I use Perl for the stuff I used to do in SNOBOL back >> when). > > Technically, however, isn't the language "SNOBOL4", not "SNOBOL"? At > least that's the way my bought-in-1968 black covered copy has it. I've > tried it on a 360/40 and a CDC 6600 (even in 1968, there existed several > "ports' of it, including for the Univac 1108 and RCA Spectrola as well > as one for the Intel 8080 under CP/M. > > As others have pointed out, there are better tools now. > > Does the code from Bell Labs SNOBOL 1, 2, or 3 still exist anywhere? > > --Chuck > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 8 14:25:12 2015 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 20:25:12 +0100 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <20150808115059.GA19740@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <20150808100029.GB16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150808102128.GD16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C5DD6A.6050601@update.uu.se> <55C5E612.60000@update.uu.se> <20150808115059.GA19740@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <55C65798.6070209@ntlworld.com> On 08/08/15 12:50, Holm Tiffe wrote: > No the thing is that I know almost nothing about VMS (and RSX11), I'm > a unix guy as you know. P > Have you an VMS mount command handy that I should try? Regards, Holm It sounds like you have VMS installed on one disk and at least one other disk doesn't seem to be working. I suspect that it will be much easier to diagnose further issues from VMS rather than from the limited stand-alone environment or the limited console environment. So boot VMS (which should just be BOOT whatever-the-disk-id-is) and then use SHOW DEVICE to look at the state of the disks. One of the ones you could not restore to was (iirc) DIA0. Hopefully it will show up with that name or possibly something$DIA0. You want to do something like: $ INIT DIA0: label If that completes without error then $ MOUNT/SYSTEM DIA0: label If that works without error then your disk is ready. I assume that in your case the INIT will fail, in which case the SHOW DEVICE DIA0:/FULL will probably be helpful in determining the next step. Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Aug 8 14:42:43 2015 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 20:42:43 +0100 Subject: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C4FA62.7060606@sydex.com> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> <55C408C1.6000909@charter.net> <55C41FBF.80606@sydex.com> <55c42403.6684320a.2549.7505@mx.google.com> <55C42C51.5060907@sydex.com> <55C4EA4B.90707@ntlworld.com> <55C4FA62.7060606@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C65BB3.20207@iee.org> On 07/08/15 19:35, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I think that supermicro still has the specs for the board up: > > http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/archive/PentiumIII/440GX/P6DGE.cfm > > > As you can see, it's pretty basic. It's pretty hard to find > reasonably fast boards with fully-functional ISA slots nowadays. > I think I have that mobo around somewhere! The manual seems to be here: http://www.supermicro.com/manuals/motherboard/440GX/MNL-018.pdf The only obvious things I can see are Quick Boot Enable (doesn't wait for disks, doesn't test beyond 1MB of memory), On-Board SCSI (disable, so it doesn't probe for SCSI disks). Beyond that, I don't see any obvious options (unless you've got some card plugged in that slows the whole thing down, but I don't think you mentioned any such cards). Antonio From scaron at umich.edu Sat Aug 8 11:05:18 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 12:05:18 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <201508081514.t78FE0xh096160@ultimate.com> References: <201508081514.t78FE0xh096160@ultimate.com> Message-ID: Hi Phil, I checked out your SNOBOL4 page and I just wanted to note for your list of historical platforms that SNOBOL4 and SPITBOL were also implemented on the Michigan Terminal System (MTS) on S/360 ... this is actually the incarnation I've been playing with recently ... along with numerous other languages, it's just baked right into the D6.0 distribution tapes so it's easy to get started right after a fresh installation ... I've found MTS is a great platform to play around with a lot of these older languages on Hercules... it's my favorite S/360 operating system by far. Best, Sean On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 11:14 AM, Phil Budne wrote: > > Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in > > languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer > > in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? > > I don't think of it as "retrocomputing" per se, but I maintain a > SNOBOL4 implementation: http://www.snobol4.org/csnobol4/ > > Mostly I write SNOBOL4 throw away programs for textual > transformations. The biggest bit of programming I've done recently is > a package to compile/install shared libraries for extending SNOBOL4. > > Phil > From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Aug 8 15:29:29 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 22:29:29 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <55C65798.6070209@ntlworld.com> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <20150808100029.GB16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150808102128.GD16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C5DD6A.6050601@update.uu.se> <55C5E612.60000@update.uu.se> <20150808115059.GA19740@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C65798.6070209@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20150808202929.GB19740@beast.freibergnet.de> Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 08/08/15 12:50, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > No the thing is that I know almost nothing about VMS (and RSX11), I'm > >a unix guy as you know. P > > > >Have you an VMS mount command handy that I should try? Regards, Holm > > It sounds like you have VMS installed on one disk and at least one other > disk doesn't seem to be working. > > I suspect that it will be much easier to diagnose further issues from > VMS rather than from the limited stand-alone environment > or the limited console environment. > > So boot VMS (which should just be BOOT whatever-the-disk-id-is) and then > use SHOW DEVICE to look at the state of the disks. > > One of the ones you could not restore to was (iirc) DIA0. Hopefully it > will show up with that name or possibly something$DIA0. Yes, I've done that already. It seems that the disk has some problems, or better the two RF31 disks. If I try to install VMS on the disks there is some ratteling and data where copied to them, after a while I get those infamous "volume is not software enabled" errors. There are no problems detected from the dssi internal support programms or their logs... I've erased the disk dia0 again with the dssi tools since that overwrites every sector o nthe disk (for data security reasons) and I get no error. Now hours later I've tried to install again. (backup/image/verify dua3:vms073.b/save disk0$dia0:) The backup starts to shuffle data and then bails out with that: %PAA0, Port has Closed Virtual Circuit - REMOTE SIDE DISK0 %BACKUP-E-WRITEBLOCK, error writing block 237 of DISK0$DIA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYSHLP.UNSUPPORTED]RF35_T392F_DEC.EXE;1-SYSTEM-F-VOLI NV, volume is not software enabled ..followed with all next blocks. I have a real VT420 connected an must copy all the things per hand... I think that there is some hardware error on the disk but not related to the disk surface, more some positioning error or something like this. Maybe changing some electrolytics will help here? I've checked the disk with the exercider and dsktest more then one time, there is NO error at all. Ideas? I'll check waht you've suggested tomorrow.. had two scotches an two beers in the meantime.. Regards, Holm > > You want to do something like: > > $ INIT DIA0: label > > If that completes without error then > > $ MOUNT/SYSTEM DIA0: label > > If that works without error then your disk is ready. > > I assume that in your case the INIT will fail, in which case the SHOW > DEVICE DIA0:/FULL will probably be helpful in determining the next step. > > Antonio > > -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Sat Aug 8 15:39:09 2015 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 16:39:09 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <20150808131457.1F89418C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150808131457.1F89418C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <003301d0d21a$484ad1f0$d8e075d0$@sc.rr.com> Hi Noel, Thank you for correcting me. I was quite sleepy when I first read the original email and missed the point that MCPL came later. I have just finished reading " The Development of the C Language" and I must say that it was very interesting reading. I'm waiting on the Revised R&R C book to arrive so I can begin my journey through C and especially how it relates to Motorola's 68HC11 microcontrollers. I viewed Dennis Ritchie's home page and read where he passed away. I of course never knew, but I know he will be missed greatly by many people I would imagine. I learned C++ first, so backing up and learning C should be interesting. No doubt I will miss a few C++ features. :) Thanks again. Take care my friend. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 9:15 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: Classic programming > > > From: Kip Koon > > > I have often wondered what the inspiration for the C Language was. BCPL > > -> MCPL -> B -> c, quite an interesting list of languages. > > I don't think MCPL is in there; B was directly inspired by BCPL. See Dennis M. Ritchie, "The Development of the C Language": > > http://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html > > I got the impression from the previous discussion that MCPL was a later branch. > > Noel From seefriek at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 15:40:13 2015 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 16:40:13 -0400 Subject: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System Message-ID: Supermicros (and to a similar degree Tyan) are mostly in the "server class" of motherboards. That apparently means they put a *lot* of self-test code in there somewhere. I've had literally thousands of Supermicro machines of a dozen different types at various times, and they all took an inordinate amount of time to decide to think about booting no matter what (all auto-detect turned off, quickboot on, inboard SCSI disabled). I got used to it, because quality-wise it was worth the wait. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Aug 8 16:21:51 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 22:21:51 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 08 Aug 2015 22:29:29 +0200" <20150808202929.GB19740@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <20150808100029.GB16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150808102128.GD16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C5DD6A.6050601@update.uu.se> <55C5E612.60000@update.uu.se> <20150808115059.GA19740@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C65798.6070209@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01PPBGRA0K060084J5@beyondthepale.ie> Holm Tiffe wrote: > > It seems that the disk has some problems, or better the two RF31 disks. > If I try to install VMS on the disks there is some ratteling and data where > copied to them, after a while I get those infamous "volume is not software > enabled" errors. > There are no problems detected from the dssi internal support programms or > their logs... > There might be something in the VMS error log: $ ANALYZE /ERROR_LOG > > I've erased the disk dia0 again with the dssi tools since that overwrites > every sector o nthe disk (for data security reasons) and I get no error. > Now hours later I've tried to install again. (backup/image/verify > dua3:vms073.b/save disk0$dia0:) The backup starts to shuffle data and then > bails out with that: > > %PAA0, Port has Closed Virtual Circuit - REMOTE SIDE DISK0 > As far as I know, DSSI can be used as a VAX cluster interconnect and DSSI disks behave in similar ways to nodes in a VAX cluster. Therefore, it may be more correct to think of your DSSI disks as remotely served disks on another node instead of locally attached disks. In the case of a cluster which is using ethernet as a VAX cluster interconnect, error messages similar to: %PEA0, Port has Closed Virtual Circuit normally indicate ethernet media problems causing difficulty with cluster connections. PEA0 is the "port emulator" device where the ethernet is emulating a "real" CI cluster interconnect - coaxial cables and a transformer. Perhaps your PAA0 errors indicate some sort of errors with the DSSI connections rather than the disk media? There should be more details on this in the VMS error log. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From spc at conman.org Sat Aug 8 16:49:36 2015 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 17:49:36 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: <20150807221109.GA5989@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20150808214936.GE5989@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Sean Caron once stated: > I love this list, I always learn so many interesting things ... reading the > article on SynthesisOS now; a few pages in, it sounds like an early attempt > at building a reflective operating system? Neat. I wonder if the Quamachine > still exists? :O I wondering if the source code exists! -spc From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 17:27:00 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 18:27:00 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <003301d0d21a$484ad1f0$d8e075d0$@sc.rr.com> References: <20150808131457.1F89418C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <003301d0d21a$484ad1f0$d8e075d0$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: I think I've got a 68HC11 development kit somewhere if you're interested; I'll dig for it and contact you privately if I find it. m On 8/8/15, Kip Koon wrote: > Hi Noel, > Thank you for correcting me. I was quite sleepy when I first read the > original email and missed the point that MCPL came later. I have just > finished reading " The Development of the C Language" and I must say that > it > was very interesting reading. I'm waiting on the Revised R&R C book to > arrive so I can begin my journey through C and especially how it relates to > Motorola's 68HC11 microcontrollers. > I viewed Dennis Ritchie's home page and read where he passed away. I of > course never knew, but I know he will be missed greatly by many people I > would imagine. I learned C++ first, so backing up and learning C should be > interesting. No doubt I will miss a few C++ features. :) Thanks again. > Take care my friend. > > Kip Koon > computerdoc at sc.rr.com > http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa >> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 9:15 AM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu >> Subject: Re: Classic programming >> >> > From: Kip Koon >> >> > I have often wondered what the inspiration for the C Language was. > BCPL >> > -> MCPL -> B -> c, quite an interesting list of languages. >> >> I don't think MCPL is in there; B was directly inspired by BCPL. See > Dennis M. Ritchie, "The Development of the C Language": >> >> http://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html >> >> I got the impression from the previous discussion that MCPL was a later > branch. >> >> Noel > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 8 17:47:04 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 15:47:04 -0700 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <55C654CA.4000509@charter.net> References: <201508081514.t78FE0xh096160@ultimate.com> <55C623F2.8080607@charter.net> <55C6429C.6010803@sydex.com> <55C654CA.4000509@charter.net> Message-ID: <55C686E8.5030404@sydex.com> On 08/08/2015 12:13 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I have always felt that the language name is SNOBOL, with multiple > versions, kind of like FORTRAN II (which is what the 1410 had), > FORTRAN IV, FORTRAN V, etc., but Griswold seems to think otherwise. > ;) I think the test would be "Can language x+1 run, without substantial modification, programs written in language x?" If the answer is "no", then languages x and x+1 are separate languages, and not compatible dialects of the same language. So FORTRAN IV would be a compatible dialect of FORTRAN II (mostly at any rate, FII vendors had a nasty habit of adding their own features willy-nilly, as did FIV). I think Codasyl was first to clamp down on "the default is the standard as we say it is", then FORTRAN followed. However, I'd submit that F95 is a separate language, as it can't run FIV, F66 or F77 programs without modification as it doesn't understand ASSIGN-ed GOTOs as well as H-type (Hollerith) FORMAT specs. --Chuck From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Sat Aug 8 18:17:39 2015 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 19:17:39 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: <20150808131457.1F89418C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <003301d0d21a$484ad1f0$d8e075d0$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000c01d0d230$6d11f160$4735d420$@sc.rr.com> Hi Mike, Thanks a bunch for the offer! That would be great! I appreciate it. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stein > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:27 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Classic programming > > I think I've got a 68HC11 development kit somewhere if you're interested; I'll dig for it and contact you privately if I find it. > > m > > On 8/8/15, Kip Koon wrote: > > Hi Noel, > > Thank you for correcting me. I was quite sleepy when I first read the > > original email and missed the point that MCPL came later. I have just > > finished reading " The Development of the C Language" and I must say > > that it was very interesting reading. I'm waiting on the Revised R&R > > C book to arrive so I can begin my journey through C and especially > > how it relates to Motorola's 68HC11 microcontrollers. > > I viewed Dennis Ritchie's home page and read where he passed away. I > > of course never knew, but I know he will be missed greatly by many > > people I would imagine. I learned C++ first, so backing up and > > learning C should be interesting. No doubt I will miss a few C++ features. :) Thanks again. > > Take care my friend. > > > > Kip Koon > > computerdoc at sc.rr.com > > http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > > Chiappa > >> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 9:15 AM > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > >> Subject: Re: Classic programming > >> > >> > From: Kip Koon > >> > >> > I have often wondered what the inspiration for the C Language was. > > BCPL > >> > -> MCPL -> B -> c, quite an interesting list of languages. > >> > >> I don't think MCPL is in there; B was directly inspired by BCPL. See > > Dennis M. Ritchie, "The Development of the C Language": > >> > >> http://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html > >> > >> I got the impression from the previous discussion that MCPL was a > >> later > > branch. > >> > >> Noel > > > > From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Aug 8 19:56:58 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 19:56:58 -0500 Subject: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20150809005658.GC4645@lonesome.com> It probably is not this, but maybe you can try it. For a while HP servers had the extremely annoying property of the boot being rate-limited by the serial console speed if you had been unfortunate enough to enable it by default. You would not notice anything other than the slowness on a video monitor, but if you plugged a serial cable in you could see it struggle. I've never seen this on anything other than HPs and for good reason. mcl From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 8 19:57:48 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 17:57:48 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility Message-ID: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> A couple of weeks ago, I offered to share the source and executable for a SCSI tape-to-SIMH .TAP file utility for MSDOS. To run it, you'll need an ASPI driver for your SCSI adapter. It was compiled using MSC 8.00C. Find it here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/x6qiudlpyitgxom/STP2T02.ZIP?dl=0 Enjoy, Chuck ------------------------------------------------------------- "The first thing we do, let's kill all the spammers." From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 8 21:01:45 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 19:01:45 -0700 Subject: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <20150809005658.GC4645@lonesome.com> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> <20150809005658.GC4645@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <55C6B489.5030106@sydex.com> On 08/08/2015 05:56 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > It probably is not this, but maybe you can try it. > > For a while HP servers had the extremely annoying property of the > boot being rate-limited by the serial console speed if you had been > unfortunate enough to enable it by default. You would not notice > anything other than the slowness on a video monitor, but if you > plugged a serial cable in you could see it struggle. > > I've never seen this on anything other than HPs and for good reason. Interesting, but you're right--not applicable here. I note that Supermicro's ftp site has a late beta version of the BIOS for this system. I"m going to give it a try to see if it improves anything. --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 8 22:12:25 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 22:12:25 -0500 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <55C686E8.5030404@sydex.com> References: <201508081514.t78FE0xh096160@ultimate.com> <55C623F2.8080607@charter.net> <55C6429C.6010803@sydex.com> <55C654CA.4000509@charter.net> <55C686E8.5030404@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C6C519.9010402@charter.net> On 8/8/2015 5:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/08/2015 12:13 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> I have always felt that the language name is SNOBOL, with multiple >> versions, kind of like FORTRAN II (which is what the 1410 had), >> FORTRAN IV, FORTRAN V, etc., but Griswold seems to think otherwise. >> ;) > > I think the test would be "Can language x+1 run, without substantial > modification, programs written in language x?" If the answer is "no", > then languages x and x+1 are separate languages, and not compatible > dialects of the same language. > > So FORTRAN IV would be a compatible dialect of FORTRAN II (mostly at any > rate, FII vendors had a nasty habit of adding their own features > willy-nilly, as did FIV). I think Codasyl was first to clamp down on > "the default is the standard as we say it is", then FORTRAN followed. > Actually, with FORTRAN II to IV: not. I spent quite a lot of time translating FORTRAN stuff back in the day. COMMON blocks were always handled differently, IO Formats differed, binary IO differed, etc. etc. > However, I'd submit that F95 is a separate language, as it can't run > FIV, F66 or F77 programs without modification as it doesn't understand > ASSIGN-ed GOTOs as well as H-type (Hollerith) FORMAT specs. > > --Chuck > From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 8 22:14:52 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 22:14:52 -0500 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> If anyone is interested, I have code for a Linux SCSI tape to AWSTAPE program, and a program that translates aws format to a raw byte stream. Not sure if I have one that translates to the SimH .tap format, though. GNU C. JRJ On 8/8/2015 7:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A couple of weeks ago, I offered to share the source and executable for > a SCSI tape-to-SIMH .TAP file utility for MSDOS. > > To run it, you'll need an ASPI driver for your SCSI adapter. > > It was compiled using MSC 8.00C. > > Find it here: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/x6qiudlpyitgxom/STP2T02.ZIP?dl=0 > > Enjoy, > Chuck > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > "The first thing we do, let's kill all the spammers." > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 8 22:20:48 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 20:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Slow booting, In-Reply-To: <55C6B489.5030106@sydex.com> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> <20150809005658.GC4645@lonesome.com> <55C6B489.5030106@sydex.com> Message-ID: Did you say that the slow boot problem that you were having was a machine with ISA? Would it make sense to put in a POST card, and make a new [temporary] BIOS with its POST peppered with OUTs? Just seeing any output that would let you know WHERE in the process it was getting bogged down might help. It could be as trivial as it trying to access hardware that isn't there, and not moving on until it gets a timeout error. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 8 23:16:42 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 21:16:42 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> Message-ID: <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> On 08/08/2015 08:14 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > If anyone is interested, I have code for a Linux SCSI tape to > AWSTAPE program, and a program that translates aws format to a raw > byte stream. Not sure if I have one that translates to the SimH .tap > format, though. GNU C. I've got a Linux utility to translate SIMH .tap to raw binary, if that's interesting to anyone. I would have thought that such utilities existed already. --Chuck From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Aug 9 02:21:19 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 09:21:19 +0200 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <20150808131457.1F89418C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150808131457.1F89418C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55C6FF6F.9010904@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-08 15:14, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Kip Koon > > > I have often wondered what the inspiration for the C Language was. BCPL > > -> MCPL -> B -> c, quite an interesting list of languages. > > I don't think MCPL is in there; B was directly inspired by BCPL. See Dennis > M. Ritchie, "The Development of the C Language": > > http://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html > > I got the impression from the previous discussion that MCPL was a later > branch. And one should not forget Algol. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 9 03:29:15 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 02:29:15 -0600 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <55C6FF6F.9010904@update.uu.se> References: <20150808131457.1F89418C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55C6FF6F.9010904@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55C70F5B.20409@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/9/2015 1:21 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-08 15:14, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Kip Koon >> >> > I have often wondered what the inspiration for the C Language >> was. BCPL >> > -> MCPL -> B -> c, quite an interesting list of languages. >> >> I don't think MCPL is in there; B was directly inspired by BCPL. See >> Dennis >> M. Ritchie, "The Development of the C Language": >> >> http://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html >> >> I got the impression from the previous discussion that MCPL was a later >> branch. > > And one should not forget Algol. > > Johnny What year did you wish for? Ben. From andy.holt at tesco.net Sun Aug 9 04:39:06 2015 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 09:39:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <55C6FF6F.9010904@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <1856510818.168088.1439113146351.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> > And one should not forget Algol. 60 or 68? (and, for that matter, PL/1 should probably be considered an unsung inspiration for C as it was the implementation language for Multics in which Bell labs was a partner and must have inspired at least the name for Unix) From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Aug 9 05:18:29 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 12:18:29 +0200 Subject: Solution was: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <01PPBGRA0K060084J5@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <20150808100029.GB16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150808102128.GD16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C5DD6A.6050601@update.uu.se> <55C5E612.60000@update.uu.se> <20150808115059.GA19740@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C65798.6070209@ntlworld.com> <01PPBGRA0K060084J5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20150809101829.GA13112@beast.freibergnet.de> Peter Coghlan wrote: > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > It seems that the disk has some problems, or better the two RF31 disks. > > If I try to install VMS on the disks there is some ratteling and data where > > copied to them, after a while I get those infamous "volume is not software > > enabled" errors. > > There are no problems detected from the dssi internal support programms or > > their logs... > > > > There might be something in the VMS error log: > > $ ANALYZE /ERROR_LOG > > > > > I've erased the disk dia0 again with the dssi tools since that overwrites > > every sector o nthe disk (for data security reasons) and I get no error. > > Now hours later I've tried to install again. (backup/image/verify > > dua3:vms073.b/save disk0$dia0:) The backup starts to shuffle data and then > > bails out with that: > > > > %PAA0, Port has Closed Virtual Circuit - REMOTE SIDE DISK0 > > > > As far as I know, DSSI can be used as a VAX cluster interconnect and DSSI disks > behave in similar ways to nodes in a VAX cluster. Therefore, it may be more > correct to think of your DSSI disks as remotely served disks on another node > instead of locally attached disks. > > In the case of a cluster which is using ethernet as a VAX cluster interconnect, > error messages similar to: > > %PEA0, Port has Closed Virtual Circuit > > normally indicate ethernet media problems causing difficulty with cluster > connections. PEA0 is the "port emulator" device where the ethernet is > emulating a "real" CI cluster interconnect - coaxial cables and a transformer. > > Perhaps your PAA0 errors indicate some sort of errors with the DSSI connections > rather than the disk media? There should be more details on this in the VMS > error log. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. Yes Peter..that was some of my toughts also. A problem with the communication with that disk subsystem, the client in the subsystem has closed the connection.. Interestingly one fo the disks worked (RF71) to other two not and that with an identical error (RF31). Both disk passed the oboard diagnostics w/o any error or warning..so wat the heck is going on here..? I've decided to pull the disk out of the machine and test every single disk alone. while doing that I saw a small Module with Voltage regulators and 4 Electrolytics sitting between the connectors on the backplane. This module is hold from a single screw, after loosen the screw (Attention ..wants to fall down in to the machine!) one can pull the module out of the connectors. I've done a quick check with my ESR tester..the Electrolytics where all totaly dry! (4 pcs Nichicon 100?F 35V). I know Nichicon is making good electrolytics but why the heck they are using fish sauce as electrolyte? :-) They stunk while desoldering. Replaced the 4 condensers, put the disks back in, booted from the cd and bingo ... no. The disk was offline, put that button in, rebooted, backup..verify run..done! That infamous Error is gone away... Don#t know what the Voltage regulators there are doing, possibly they supply an active Terminator or they supply power to the disks... Now I can do what I wanted todo 2 days before... Thanks to all that helped! Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Aug 9 05:43:58 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 12:43:58 +0200 Subject: VAX4000/300 MNS7.3 isntallation from CDROM In-Reply-To: <55C5EFC8.7030101@update.uu.se> References: <20150807162246.GA54051@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C52C91.7000907@update.uu.se> <01PPAQD33IN00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> <20150808100029.GB16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150808102128.GD16385@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C5DD6A.6050601@update.uu.se> <55C5E612.60000@update.uu.se> <20150808115059.GA19740@beast.freibergnet.de> <55C5EFC8.7030101@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150809104358.GB13112@beast.freibergnet.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-08 13:50, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > >[..]i > >> > >>Now I'll be snarky, but just for a single paragraph, Holm... :-) > >>Did you ever actually read the full ISE Users Guide manual? Check page > >>3-7 to 3-12. There you actually have the manual talk about both the > >>software write protect and the hardware write protect. In this context I > >>believe you are going to play with the hardware write protect. > >> > >>Ignore my previous comment about the write protect button, as the RF31 > >>apparently do not have one. It's all done through firmware instead. > >> > >>Check if there are any other parameters that looks like they might be > >>related as well. > >> > >> Johnny > >> > >>-- > > > >The drive means that it has no wrt_prot parameter Johnny.. > > Ok. Too bad. That looked so very promising. :-( > > >Trust me, I'm try to read things that are available before I ask. > > I'll try assuming less. > > >I've learned about the drive internals since one of them was bad when I got > >the machine, none of them was booting something, had tried that first and > >so I ran erase and test utils in the drive. That was months before now. > >I know that the drive hat an error in his logs but I've cleared that error > >after running the drive tests and exerciser as described. > >(I think tere is a rubber bumper in the drive that glued on the head > >assembly and with google I found the "solution") > >There was no time previously to try to install VMS. > > Ok. Understood. The rubber bumper thing is something that exists in > several drives. Search for "sticky heads" and similar phrases if you > want to see. > > >No the thing is that I know almost nothing about VMS (and RSX11), I'm a > >unix guy as you know. > > Yeah... > But it's fun to learn. :-) > > >People on the net organized almost w/o any effort from me that I got this > >VAX4000/300 to give it a good home, now I have some free time and I'm > >trying to install it after cleaning and repairing that !?$%%&/&%i!! PSU. > > Good work so far then. > > >In the meantime as I write this I have run the drvexr task for 20 minutes: > > > > 4188 operations completed. > >75150 LBN blocks (512 bytes) read. > >25050 LBN blocks (512 bytes) written. > >81900 DBN blocks (512 bytes) read. > >27300 DBN blocks (512 bytes) written. > >75150 LBN blocks (512 bytes) read. > > 0 bytes in error (soft). > > 0 uncorrectable ECC errors. > >Complete. > > Seems like the drive is working fine. > > >Have you an VMS mount command handy that I should try? > > Did you try the commands mentioned in the manual? > > /OVER=ID is good to make MOUNT succeed independent of what labels are on > the disk. > /NOASSIST to make mount complete directly instead of sending a request > to an operator. > /WRITE or /NOWRITE for that part. > /FOREIGN to mount disks that do not have a VMS filesystem on them. > > After that, I'd try to just read/write to the disk from VMS. Either it > works, and you are happy. Or it fails, at which point you will have a > good VMS error log to read from to find more details on what the problem is. > VMS can also exercise the disk and analyze it. > > Johnny > Johnny I thinks it's time to clear some things about me a little bit up for you. Most people here think that I'm sort of a hero in repairing electronics and I can do some programming too. That's from what I get my living from. I'm my own company, repairing electronic stuff (no, no TVs and suchi, htat I'm doing only for myself) developing controller boards for industrial customers and do some programming in assembler and C on microcontrollers. I have rent a server in a computing centre and I'm hosting approx 80 customers with web an mail services. I'm the contractor for firewalling in the local power company here. But I'm a better repair person then a programmer at all. ..so I get my living, the wrong way to get rich at all..but.. Whey I say here that I have some spaer time to play with out old geriatric computers then this timeframe is really small. That is so when I try to port NetBSD to a VAX-ISA Card (and fail) and it is so when I try to install that unknown to me VMS on an old VAX. When I say "I can hear you laughing" then I think I know why. I know your way tho advise me in some things..you are tend to say "RTFM". That's not totally wrong, and I have approx 3 meters of some VAX documentation here and havend read a single bit from the, but I'm not that new with googling some stuff. The problem at my site is the small amount of time that I can spend for that. I'm reading how a install should be done...but now there are some differences where I don't have an explantation for. That's the moment where I'm asking PPL like you. And then an answer linke "type in backup/image/verify disk:source/save destinationdisk:" is much more helpful to me as the hint to the documentation ..that I'm possibly read alerady.. I'm 52 years old and I have forgotten what the manual says at the beginning when I'm at end if I don't use the learned stuff. When I should read the entire Manual the left over time for repairing things is already gone before I can start to install. I've installed VMS approx 3 Years ago on my VS4000-90 w/o to ask someone..but this VAX4000-300 was infamous.. Don't had time nor the space to do something with the VS4000. Installed DECwindows and played around with it and my Unix hosts..that's all. I really hope that you now could understand a little better what my goal is... Last but not least: Sorry for my poor english. I never learned that in a school, thats only from using Unix, reading documentaions and mails. I can't really speak english since I don't had the possibility to talk with english speaking people, but I hope that I an at least write halfways understandable.. On the other side..I had russian in the school, never used it and have forgotten most of it. Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cube1 at charter.net Sun Aug 9 07:43:55 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 07:43:55 -0500 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <1856510818.168088.1439113146351.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <1856510818.168088.1439113146351.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <55C74B0B.60203@charter.net> Probably negative inspiration due to its complexity.... what to NOT do. ;) On 8/9/2015 4:39 AM, ANDY HOLT wrote: >> And one should not forget Algol. > 60 or 68? > > (and, for that matter, PL/1 should probably be considered an unsung > inspiration for C as it was the implementation language for Multics > in which Bell labs was a partner and must have inspired at least > the name for Unix) > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 07:49:05 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 08:49:05 -0400 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 Syste Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 18:43:53 +0100 > From: "Dave G4UGM" > Subject: RE: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System > > Actually I remember booting an IBM4381 from cold after we shut it down > over Christmas. Just pressing the Power button powered it up eventually, > but I am pretty sure it took nearly an hour to get to the IPL prompt. So it > did disk drives, then tape drives, then other bits and bobs. But when it > spun up the disks it brought them up one at a time so the startup surges > didn't trip the main breaker. The same with the tape drives. Then it > loaded the microcode into all the controllers. Then it booted the OS. As we > were running VM this last bit took a few seconds (I think). I do know if VM > crashed you screen logo frequently re-appeared before you had time to think. > > Dave Wade > G4UGM > I have done the same on a Honeywell mainframe. After powering up everything manually the only the mag tape and card reader I/O controllers had boot capability. Push the INIT and BOOT buttons and it would read and load tape controller microcode from mag tape, then read and load the disk controller microcode, then the processor's boot code, and then boot from disk. It took just seconds for the mag tape part. Getting the front end processors bootloaded, and getting online communications, timesharing, and batch processing up took a while. This system was capable of booting from binary punched cards. We used to try it periodically just to make sure that this capability worked. -- Michael Thompson From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 9 10:08:11 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 08:08:11 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> On 8/8/15 9:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/08/2015 08:14 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> If anyone is interested, I have code for a Linux SCSI tape to >> AWSTAPE program, and a program that translates aws format to a raw >> byte stream. Not sure if I have one that translates to the SimH .tap >> format, though. GNU C. > > I've got a Linux utility to translate SIMH .tap to raw binary, if that's interesting to anyone. I would have thought that such utilities existed already. > > --Chuck > > this bursts a tape into raw sequentially numbered files #include FILE *fp; main() { unsigned int len, len2; unsigned int i; unsigned int filenum = 0; char fname[20]; sprintf(fname,"%05d",filenum++); fp = fopen(fname,"w"); do{ len = getchar(); if(feof(stdin)) exit(1); len = len | (getchar()<<8); len = len | (getchar()<<16); len = len | (getchar()<<24); if(len == -1){ fprintf(stderr,"65535 byte record in file %d\n",filenum); getchar();getchar();getchar();getchar(); continue; } if(len == 0){ fprintf(stderr,"Tape Mark\n"); fclose(fp); sprintf(fname,"%05d",filenum++); fp = fopen(fname,"w"); continue; } for(i = len; i; i--) fputc(getchar(), fp); len2 = getchar(); len2 = len2 | (getchar()<<8); len2 = len2 | (getchar()<<16); len2 = len2 | (getchar()<<24); if(len != len2){ fprintf(stderr, "front and back lengths differ!\n"); exit(1); } } while(!feof(stdin)); } From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Aug 9 10:25:16 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 11:25:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classic programming Message-ID: <20150809152517.01BE318C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Christopherson > people who like to program in languages or language implementations or > libraries that are no longer in common mainstream use? I prefer to write code under (effectively) V6 Unix; I find that I can get things working and done faster there than in any other environment. Of course, if one sticks to just the Standard I/O library, you can get more or less than same environment pretty much everywhere: Windows, Linux, etc. > From: Sean Conner > My current Holy Grail piece of software would be Synthesis OS---an > operating system written in assembly (in 1991) that can recompile and > specialize itself on the fly [6]---basically, a program can request and get > custom system calls to use. > ... > [6] http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/ Wow. I had a look at that site: Very Very Very Cool. Is source still extant anywhere? (I know, I could email the creator...) Also, ISTR a post which talked about Guy Steele working on EMACS. I don't think that can be correct - Guy had, IIRC, departed MIT before I got to Tech Sq, and EMACS had just started being developed when I got there. As to who actually did do EMACS, it was a cast of characters, and I wasn't enough part of it to know who should be listed. RMS was, of course, primus inter pares, but there were others. E.g. I remember Gene Cicarelli did some stuff. There was this thing called IVORY which IIRC 'purified' TECO code so that it could be dumped out in a compressed form (for faster loading, execution, etc - it may have also been possible to have it read-only, and the page(s) shared between multiple EMACS instances, but my memory is foggy on this), and Gene did that. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Aug 9 10:31:25 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 11:31:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classic programming Message-ID: <20150809153125.4597E18C10E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > And one should not forget Algol. IIRC, Algol is mentioned in the paper I linked to. Of course, Algol's DNA is in pretty much every procedural language ever created since it was. > From: Andy Holt > (and, for that matter, PL/1 should probably be considered an unsung > inspiration for C as it was the implementation language for Multics > in which Bell labs was a partner and must have inspired at least > the name for Unix) The paper also mentions PL/I - IIRC, they (Ken, Dennis et al) had used it on Multics, and didn't like it. (Which I can understand!) I'm not sure there are any ideas from PL/I (specifically) which influenced C. Multics' influence on Unix is a very sizeable topic, which I won't derail into - it's an interest of mine, and I've been doing research on that; my hope is to do a paper on it at some point. The executive abstract is that the two extremes one hears ('Unix is derived from Multics'/'Unix is in fact a counter-reaction to Multics') aren't really accurate - the truth is in the middle. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Aug 9 10:32:01 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 11:32:01 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <20150809152517.01BE318C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150809152517.01BE318C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <186F627E-BA0C-4D1F-97C9-84728D861097@comcast.net> > On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > ... > There was this thing called IVORY which IIRC 'purified' TECO code so that it > could be dumped out in a compressed form (for faster loading, execution, etc > - it may have also been possible to have it read-only, and the page(s) shared > between multiple EMACS instances, but my memory is foggy on this), and Gene > did that. There was a TECO compresser TECO macro, but that is a more limited beast: it simply would compress out any spaces between commands, and convert string delimiters to their short form. This definitely did make them smaller and slightly faster, as well as harder to read. There was also, on TOPS-10, a TECO that would read the command string and compile it into machine code, then execute the result. I think it came from Stevens University, but that may just be a confused memory. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Aug 9 10:39:47 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 11:39:47 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <20150809153125.4597E18C10E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150809153125.4597E18C10E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:31 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Johnny Billquist > >> And one should not forget Algol. > > IIRC, Algol is mentioned in the paper I linked to. Of course, Algol's DNA is > in pretty much every procedural language ever created since it was. Algol 60, that is. It was used as the inspiration by just about everything that followed, sometimes very clearly and cleanly (Pascal, Modula), sometimes less so (C). And sometimes a designer created a total botch based on gross misunderstanding of Algol (Jovial). Algol 68 is a very different and much more complex language. It didn?t go far and wasn?t nearly as influential, though Arne Stroustrup mentions its influence on C++ (and this is pretty obvious when you look at C++ stream I/O). > >> From: Andy Holt > >> (and, for that matter, PL/1 should probably be considered an unsung >> inspiration for C as it was the implementation language for Multics >> in which Bell labs was a partner and must have inspired at least >> the name for Unix) > > The paper also mentions PL/I - IIRC, they (Ken, Dennis et al) had used it on > Multics, and didn't like it. (Which I can understand!) I'm not sure there are > any ideas from PL/I (specifically) which influenced C. PL/I also has the distinction (so to speak) of being the only programming language in history with a formal description more difficult to understand (by a large margin, in fact) than the one used in Algol 68. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Aug 9 10:48:05 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 17:48:05 +0200 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150318181559.2C18B18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150318181559.2C18B18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55C77635.5050407@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-18 19:15, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > One more thing to check this summer... > > OK, if you can, that would really be great; if either i) it's still together, > or ii) there are pictures, it would fill some of the key knowledge gaps. > > In particular, i) what kind of backplane is it plugged into, and ii) what is > the UNIBUS edge connector on the card connected to... Wow. This took me some time to get back to, and also find the mail thread. Anyway, I can now shed some more light here. To recap, we had multiple discussions/arguments about a memory expansion option for the 11/34, where lots of other people claimed that the Enable34 added memory, but that it was not addressable in the regular sense, and you mostly could use it in a bank switched way, and possibly DMA to it. I, on the other hand, claimed that it worked just like normal memory, and essentially expanded the 11/34 to a 22-bit addressing machine. Making it more or less the same as an 11/24. Turns out I understood/remembered it right, but was wrong about the product. The 11/34 that I played with did not have a product from Enable. So I really cannot comment on the Enable34, and I do not have any documentation on it. The product "my" 11/34 have came from Systime, and it do expand the 11/34 to 22 bit full addressing. The PAR registers are expanded to 16 bits, MMR3 gets some additional bits, and you get a Unibus map. The solution is one card in the CPU backplane. In addition, a few wires needs to be changed on the backplane, there is a cable from a CPU card to the Systime card, and a few modifications required on the 11/34 CPU itself. And then there is a separate box connected from the Systime card, which holds all the memory. Once you have installed the Systime option, you will have an 11/34 with 22-bit addressing. From a software point of view, the easiest is to tell any OS that you have an 11/24 instead, and everything just works. We still do have the manuals, even though I'm not sure where the hardware is anymore. It would take some work to scan them, and I don't have the time for that at the moment. I wonder, have anyone else but me ever seen/used this option? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ben at bensinclair.com Sun Aug 9 10:48:56 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 10:48:56 -0500 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? Message-ID: I found this on eBay, and I'm not sure what it is: http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-RX02-COMPUTER-SYSTEM-2-FLOPPY-DRIVES-UNTESTED-T27-/181827282211?hash=item2a55c02523 I haven't seen RX-02s in a case like this before, and some Googling doesn't seem to reveal much of anything. Does anyone know what this is exactly? Thanks! -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Aug 9 10:55:04 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 17:55:04 +0200 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55C777D8.2060705@update.uu.se> Noel, I just posted an answer to this riddle. I hope you got it. Let me know otherwise, and I'll recap it again. :-) Johnny On 2015-03-17 00:27, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > All I can say is that I did a number of RSX SYSGENs on that 11/34, and > > it truly looked just like an 11/24 from a software point of view. > > The thing that I wonder about it, for that to be true, is something that > someone (sorry, to lazy to look in the archive to give proper credit) pointed > out, which is that that CPU is only two boards, and the memory management, > including the PARs, is built into one of them. So how could one extend a PAR > from 12 bits to 16, when there's already 12 bits buried deep inside the CPU? > That's the part that I can't work out... > > > I'm hoping that Update ... still have the documentation around. > > You and me both! :-) > > I have this dream of one day having an 11/45, with the Enable and the optional > cache. Now that would be a sweeet machine: most of the capability of an 11/70, > but a lot less power draw. But I'd need the documentation to see how to > connect it up! :-) > > > Every time this comes up I really want to go searching for manuals... > > :-) > > Please do! :-) > > Noel > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Aug 9 11:08:05 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 18:08:05 +0200 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C77AE5.8030705@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-09 17:48, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I found this on eBay, and I'm not sure what it is: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-RX02-COMPUTER-SYSTEM-2-FLOPPY-DRIVES-UNTESTED-T27-/181827282211?hash=item2a55c02523 > > I haven't seen RX-02s in a case like this before, and some Googling > doesn't seem to reveal much of anything. > > Does anyone know what this is exactly? That is definitely not an RX02 in the common sense of the word. I would like to see a picture where you can see that Digital sticker in a larger context, so I can see that it really sits on that cabinet. The whole cabinet do not even look in the style of DEC cabinets. Very strange beast. But who knows. DEC might have built some off one-off or something for a special purpose or customer. (Not to mention that RX02 is not a computer to start with...) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 11:14:43 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 12:14:43 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: <55C77AE5.8030705@update.uu.se> References: <55C77AE5.8030705@update.uu.se> Message-ID: The pedestal RX02s are around, but pretty rare. I think they were part of a PDP-8 based word processor (VT78?), and/or part of the smaller PDT11 systems. -- Will On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-09 17:48, Ben Sinclair wrote: >> >> I found this on eBay, and I'm not sure what it is: >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-RX02-COMPUTER-SYSTEM-2-FLOPPY-DRIVES-UNTESTED-T27-/181827282211?hash=item2a55c02523 >> >> I haven't seen RX-02s in a case like this before, and some Googling >> doesn't seem to reveal much of anything. >> >> Does anyone know what this is exactly? > > > That is definitely not an RX02 in the common sense of the word. > I would like to see a picture where you can see that Digital sticker in a > larger context, so I can see that it really sits on that cabinet. > > The whole cabinet do not even look in the style of DEC cabinets. Very > strange beast. But who knows. DEC might have built some off one-off or > something for a special purpose or customer. > > (Not to mention that RX02 is not a computer to start with...) > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Aug 9 11:26:12 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 18:26:12 +0200 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: References: <55C77AE5.8030705@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55C77F24.2030902@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-09 18:14, William Donzelli wrote: > The pedestal RX02s are around, but pretty rare. I think they were part > of a PDP-8 based word processor (VT78?), and/or part of the smaller > PDT11 systems. You can easily google pictures of the VT78, and it has the same two RX01 (or if it is RX02) side by side as you could expect elsewhere. The PDT-11/150 at least have drives that resembles the ones on ebay, but the cabinet is different (if you can even say the PDT-11/150 have a cabinet). No, the ebay listing is still a weird beast, to say the least. Johnny > > -- > Will > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-08-09 17:48, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>> >>> I found this on eBay, and I'm not sure what it is: >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-RX02-COMPUTER-SYSTEM-2-FLOPPY-DRIVES-UNTESTED-T27-/181827282211?hash=item2a55c02523 >>> >>> I haven't seen RX-02s in a case like this before, and some Googling >>> doesn't seem to reveal much of anything. >>> >>> Does anyone know what this is exactly? >> >> >> That is definitely not an RX02 in the common sense of the word. >> I would like to see a picture where you can see that Digital sticker in a >> larger context, so I can see that it really sits on that cabinet. >> >> The whole cabinet do not even look in the style of DEC cabinets. Very >> strange beast. But who knows. DEC might have built some off one-off or >> something for a special purpose or customer. >> >> (Not to mention that RX02 is not a computer to start with...) >> >> Johnny >> >> -- >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> || on a psychedelic trip >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Aug 9 11:27:15 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 12:27:15 -0400 Subject: Guy Steele and Emacs - was Re: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <20150809152517.01BE318C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150809152517.01BE318C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55C77F63.6070303@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-08-09 11:25 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Eric Christopherson > > > people who like to program in languages or language implementations or > > libraries that are no longer in common mainstream use? > > I prefer to write code under (effectively) V6 Unix; I find that I can get > things working and done faster there than in any other environment. Of course, > if one sticks to just the Standard I/O library, you can get more or less than > same environment pretty much everywhere: Windows, Linux, etc. > > > > From: Sean Conner > > > My current Holy Grail piece of software would be Synthesis OS---an > > operating system written in assembly (in 1991) that can recompile and > > specialize itself on the fly [6]---basically, a program can request and get > > custom system calls to use. > > ... > > [6] http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/ > > Wow. I had a look at that site: Very Very Very Cool. > > Is source still extant anywhere? (I know, I could email the creator...) > > > Also, ISTR a post which talked about Guy Steele working on EMACS. I don't > think that can be correct - Guy had, IIRC, departed MIT before I got to Tech > Sq, and EMACS had just started being developed when I got there. Peter Siebel's "Coders at Work" features a chapter/interview with Steele: \\ Siebel: During your time at MIT you were somehow involved in the birth of Emacs. But the early history of Emacs is a hit hazy. What is your version of the story? Steele: My version of the story was that I was playing standards guy. What had happened was there was this display mode that turned TECO into something like a WYSIWYG editor. On our 24x80 screens, 21 lines of what was in the buffer would be shown on the screen and the bottom 3 lines were still a TECO command line. You'd be typing in these TECO commands and only when you hit the double altmode would they then be executed. Then there was the real-time edit mode, where it was suggested that a TECO command throw you in this other mode whereby instead of waiting for you to type the double altmode, TECO would react immediately to single character commands. If you type one character, it would do the command. You type another character, it would do the command. And most printing characters were self-inserting. Then the control characters were used to move forward, back, up, and down. It was a very, very primitive---it looked like a very primitive version of Emacs. Then came the breakthrough. The suggestion was, we have this idea of taking a character and looking it up in a table and executing TECO commands. Why don't we apply that to real-time edit mode? So that every character you can type is used as a lookup character in this table. And the default table says, printing characters are self-inserting and control characters do these things. But let's just make it programmable and see what happens. And what immediately happened was four or five different bright people around MIT had their own ideas about what to do with that. Within just a few months there were five completely incompatible GUI interfaces to TECO. Seibel: So they were just customizing, essentially, the key-bindings? Steele: That's right. And they each had their own ideas about what should be concise because you do it most often and what you can afford to be longer. So one guy, for example, was really concerned about typing in Lisp code and began to experiment with finding balanced parenthesized expressions. And another guy was more interested in text, so he was interested in commands that would move over words and convert between uppercase and lowercase and capitalize them. And that's where those commands in Emacs came from. Different people had different ideas about how the key-bindings ought to be organized. As a systems-support guy for Lisp, I was often called to people's terminals and asked to help them. And I fairly quickly noticed that I couldn't sit down at their TECOs and help them modify their programs because I'd be faced with a set of key-bindings and I had no idea what they were going to do. Seibel: Was one of those guys Richard Stallman? Steele: No, Stallman was the implementer and supporter of TECO. And he provided the built-in real-time edit mode feature, although I think Carl Mikkelsen had worked on the early version of it. He provided the key-bindings feature that made all of this possible. Anyway, there were something like four different macro packages and they were incompatible, and I decided to play standards guy, or community reconciliation guy. I saw something that had been lost in our community, which was the ability to easily help each other at our terminals. I said, "OK, we've had some experimentation; we've seen a bunch of ideas. What if we could agree on a common set of key-bindings and draw the best ideas from each of these things?" I literally had a pad of paper and ran around the building, talking to these guys, visiting each of them several times, and tried to get some kind of consensus. I was trying to get consensus on what the content ought to be and then I drew on their designs and tried to organize the actual choice of key-bindings so as to make them a little more regular and a little more mnemonic. And not being a human-factors guy at all, I didn't think at all about convenience for touch typists. I was principally concerned with mnemonic value. And so that's why Meta-C and Meta-L and Meta-U stand for capitalize and lowercase and uppercase. ... Seibel: So you made this standard set of key-bindings. How did that go over? Were people happy with it? Steele: Well, people worked through it. Then I sat down and proceeded to begin an implementation of it. And we had another idea that came into the mix at the same time and it was the idea that you could make TECO macros run a lot faster if you squeezed out the spaces and deleted all the comments. The way the TECO interpreter worked, interpreting one character at a time, when you encountered a comment it had to spend the time skipping over that comment. So we had this idea of this very primitive TECO compiler that was mostly just squeezing out the white space and the comments and doing a few other minor things to put it in a form that would run a little bit faster. So I began in an initial way to try to construct a version of this macro compressor, which I think was actually based on an earlier idea that Moon had had. I don't think I originated that idea. I began to think about how to organize the initial dispatch and organize some of the first few routines borrowing on the existing implementations of other macro pckages---I was trying to synthesize them. And about that point Stallman came along and said, "What are you doing? This looks interesting." He immediately jumped in and he could implement ten times as fast as I could, partly because he knew TECO inside out. So I worked seriously on the implementation of Emacs probably for only about four or six weeks. At which point it became clear that Stallman understood what the program was. I wanted to get back to doing graduate-student things. So Stallman did the other 99.999 percent of the work. But I played a role in catalyzing it and beginning the implementation. // > > As to who actually did do EMACS, it was a cast of characters, and I wasn't > enough part of it to know who should be listed. RMS was, of course, primus > inter pares, but there were others. E.g. I remember Gene Cicarelli did > some stuff. > > There was this thing called IVORY which IIRC 'purified' TECO code so that it > could be dumped out in a compressed form (for faster loading, execution, etc > - it may have also been possible to have it read-only, and the page(s) shared > between multiple EMACS instances, but my memory is foggy on this), and Gene > did that. > > Noel > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 9 11:46:47 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 09:46:47 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55C783F7.2050108@sydex.com> I've got a version that looks for label records and names and dates the parts appropriately. Probably not of any interest to UNIX-ers as the tape handling of that system was abysmally primitive, compared to other mainframe systems. --Chuck On 08/09/2015 08:08 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/8/15 9:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 08/08/2015 08:14 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >>> If anyone is interested, I have code for a Linux SCSI tape to >>> AWSTAPE program, and a program that translates aws format to a raw >>> byte stream. Not sure if I have one that translates to the SimH .tap >>> format, though. GNU C. >> >> I've got a Linux utility to translate SIMH .tap to raw binary, if >> that's interesting to anyone. I would have thought that such >> utilities existed already. >> >> --Chuck >> >> > > this bursts a tape into raw sequentially numbered files > > > #include > FILE *fp; > main() > { > unsigned int len, len2; > unsigned int i; > unsigned int filenum = 0; > > char fname[20]; > > sprintf(fname,"%05d",filenum++); > fp = fopen(fname,"w"); > do{ > > len = getchar(); > if(feof(stdin)) exit(1); > len = len | (getchar()<<8); > len = len | (getchar()<<16); > len = len | (getchar()<<24); > if(len == -1){ > fprintf(stderr,"65535 byte record in file %d\n",filenum); > getchar();getchar();getchar();getchar(); > continue; > } > if(len == 0){ > fprintf(stderr,"Tape Mark\n"); > fclose(fp); > sprintf(fname,"%05d",filenum++); > fp = fopen(fname,"w"); > continue; > } > > for(i = len; i; i--) > fputc(getchar(), fp); > > len2 = getchar(); > len2 = len2 | (getchar()<<8); > len2 = len2 | (getchar()<<16); > len2 = len2 | (getchar()<<24); > > if(len != len2){ > fprintf(stderr, "front and back lengths differ!\n"); > exit(1); > } > } while(!feof(stdin)); > } > > > > -- --Chuck ------------------------------------------------------------- "The first thing we do, let's kill all the spammers." From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 9 11:47:24 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 17:47:24 +0100 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: <20150809153125.4597E18C10E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <008901d0d2c3$12927c30$37b77490$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning > Sent: 09 August 2015 16:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: Classic programming > > > > On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:31 AM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > > > >> From: Johnny Billquist > > > >> And one should not forget Algol. > > > > IIRC, Algol is mentioned in the paper I linked to. Of course, Algol's > > DNA is in pretty much every procedural language ever created since it was. > > Algol 60, that is. It was used as the inspiration by just about everything that > followed, sometimes very clearly and cleanly (Pascal, Modula), sometimes less > so (C). And sometimes a designer created a total botch based on gross > misunderstanding of Algol (Jovial). > > Algol 68 is a very different and much more complex language. It didn?t go far > and wasn?t nearly as influential, though Arne Stroustrup mentions its influence > on C++ (and this is pretty obvious when you look at C++ stream I/O). > > > > >> From: Andy Holt > > > >> (and, for that matter, PL/1 should probably be considered an unsung > >> inspiration for C as it was the implementation language for Multics > >> in which Bell labs was a partner and must have inspired at least the > >> name for Unix) > > > > The paper also mentions PL/I - IIRC, they (Ken, Dennis et al) had used > > it on Multics, and didn't like it. (Which I can understand!) I'm not > > sure there are any ideas from PL/I (specifically) which influenced C. > > PL/I also has the distinction (so to speak) of being the only programming > language in history with a formal description more difficult to understand (by a > large margin, in fact) than the one used in Algol 68. > I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation called Algol68C on a DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has got the media for it, I still live in hope. I think there are some other implementations around, I should make the effort to try one some time. Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 9 11:54:03 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 09:54:03 -0700 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <20150809153125.4597E18C10E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150809153125.4597E18C10E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55C785AB.9030801@sydex.com> On 08/09/2015 08:31 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > And one should not forget Algol. > > IIRC, Algol is mentioned in the paper I linked to. Of course, Algol's DNA is > in pretty much every procedural language ever created since it was. It seems everyone has forgotten JOVIAL (1959). PL/I was remarkable for the fact that it's the language that nobody involved with the language really wanted. I do remember a few stories about that told to me by a fellow who worked on COMBTRAN and steadfastly refused to be involved with said PL/I project. A couple of years later, one of my compatriots was involved with coming up with the ANSI standard for the thing. His view was not much different that my other friend's. --Chuck From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Aug 9 11:57:44 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 12:57:44 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C78688.8030901@comcast.net> On 8/9/2015 11:48 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I found this on eBay, and I'm not sure what it is: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-RX02-COMPUTER-SYSTEM-2-FLOPPY-DRIVES-UNTESTED-T27-/181827282211?hash=item2a55c02523 > > I haven't seen RX-02s in a case like this before, and some Googling > doesn't seem to reveal much of anything. > > Does anyone know what this is exactly? > > Thanks! > This seller (who has a bizarre sounding name) also has a pair of RX33 floppies for sale. The mounting hardware is interesting, was there ever something like that for the BA23? I always wanted to mount a TZ30 and RX33 drive in place of the RX50 drive, was that ever an option? From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Aug 9 12:01:08 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 13:01:08 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C78754.1020901@comcast.net> On 8/7/2015 12:18 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in > languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer > in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? > I've watched this thread with interest because I am struggling with getting up to speed using Microsoft Visual C++ version 1.5, which I think was their first IDE. It is a 16 bit environment and the goal is to use some 1990 era 16 bit DLL's to talk to some laboratory instruments. Doug From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Aug 9 12:07:32 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 13:07:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Guy Steele and Emacs - was Re: Classic programming Message-ID: <20150809170732.B939518C10B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Toby Thain > Peter Siebel's "Coders at Work" features a chapter/interview with > Steele: Ah, thanks for pointing that out; I do have that volume, but I guess I didn't read Steele's chapter. > "So I worked seriously on the implementation of Emacs probably for only > about four or six weeks." That's probably why I didn't know of it - blink and you missed it! :-) Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Aug 9 12:12:47 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 13:12:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qbus split I&D? Message-ID: <20150809171247.4A77C18C10B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > The 11/34 that I played with did not have a product from Enable. ... > The product "my" 11/34 have came from Systime Thanks for chasing that down. Yes, that would explain the non-meshing memories! :-) > In addition, a few wires needs to be changed on the backplane, there is > a cable from a CPU card to the Systime card, and a few modifications > required on the 11/34 CPU itself. This all makes sense - if one can reach into the CPU, it's definitely plausible to have an upgrade which expands the size of the PARs (unlike the ENABLE board from Able). Noel From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 12:14:17 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 13:14:17 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: <55C77F24.2030902@update.uu.se> References: <55C77AE5.8030705@update.uu.se> <55C77F24.2030902@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Options, options, options... DEC was was good at options. -- Will On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-09 18:14, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> The pedestal RX02s are around, but pretty rare. I think they were part >> of a PDP-8 based word processor (VT78?), and/or part of the smaller >> PDT11 systems. > > > You can easily google pictures of the VT78, and it has the same two RX01 (or > if it is RX02) side by side as you could expect elsewhere. > > The PDT-11/150 at least have drives that resembles the ones on ebay, but the > cabinet is different (if you can even say the PDT-11/150 have a cabinet). > > No, the ebay listing is still a weird beast, to say the least. > > Johnny > > >> >> -- >> Will >> >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Johnny Billquist >> wrote: >>> >>> On 2015-08-09 17:48, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I found this on eBay, and I'm not sure what it is: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-RX02-COMPUTER-SYSTEM-2-FLOPPY-DRIVES-UNTESTED-T27-/181827282211?hash=item2a55c02523 >>>> >>>> I haven't seen RX-02s in a case like this before, and some Googling >>>> doesn't seem to reveal much of anything. >>>> >>>> Does anyone know what this is exactly? >>> >>> >>> >>> That is definitely not an RX02 in the common sense of the word. >>> I would like to see a picture where you can see that Digital sticker in a >>> larger context, so I can see that it really sits on that cabinet. >>> >>> The whole cabinet do not even look in the style of DEC cabinets. Very >>> strange beast. But who knows. DEC might have built some off one-off or >>> something for a special purpose or customer. >>> >>> (Not to mention that RX02 is not a computer to start with...) >>> >>> Johnny >>> >>> -- >>> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >>> || on a psychedelic trip >>> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >>> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Aug 9 12:19:50 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 13:19:50 -0400 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C783F7.2050108@sydex.com> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> <55C783F7.2050108@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I've got a version that looks for label records and names and dates the parts appropriately. > > Probably not of any interest to UNIX-ers as the tape handling of that system was abysmally primitive, compared to other mainframe systems. More primitive than OS/360, which lets you put names on tape files but can?t find files by name? That?s hard to imagine. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Aug 9 12:22:29 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 13:22:29 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <008901d0d2c3$12927c30$37b77490$@ntlworld.com> References: <20150809153125.4597E18C10E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <008901d0d2c3$12927c30$37b77490$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5E4C4CD0-87B4-4FA9-9844-071832C12D6C@comcast.net> > On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > ... > I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation called Algol68C on a DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has got the media for it, I still live in hope. I think there are some other implementations around, I should make the effort to try one some time. There was a quite good Algol 68 for the CDC 6000 series. There are also oddities like an Algol 68 interpreter (not compiler) written in Algol 60. And there is an open source Algol 68 around today ? algol68g. paul From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 9 12:36:13 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 10:36:13 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> <55C783F7.2050108@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C78F8D.8090401@sydex.com> On 08/09/2015 10:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > More primitive than OS/360, which lets you put names on tape files > but can?t find files by name? That?s hard to imagine. You haven't lived until you get a pile of tapes (some mixed-density) with no identifying labels at all, from an archivist who wants to know what's on them, but can't provide any information as to where they came from, much less what operating system wrote them. I still think that OS/360 was miles ahead of UNIX. Good OS-es allowed an operator to mount tapes for his next few jobs, without paying attention to paper labels and have the OS automatically locate and assign tapes to the proper job. Can UNIX do that? --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 12:38:02 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 18:38:02 +0100 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 Syste In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <017701d0d2ca$24d749a0$6e85dce0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael > Thompson > Sent: 09 August 2015 13:49 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 Syste > > Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 18:43:53 +0100 > > From: "Dave G4UGM" > > Subject: RE: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System > > > > Actually I remember booting an IBM4381 from cold after we shut it down > > over Christmas. Just pressing the Power button powered it up > > eventually, but I am pretty sure it took nearly an hour to get to the > > IPL prompt. So it did disk drives, then tape drives, then other bits > > and bobs. But when it spun up the disks it brought them up one at a > > time so the startup surges didn't trip the main breaker. The same with > > the tape drives. Then it loaded the microcode into all the > > controllers. Then it booted the OS. As we were running VM this last > > bit took a few seconds (I think). I do know if VM crashed you screen logo > frequently re-appeared before you had time to think. > > > > Dave Wade > > G4UGM > > > > I have done the same on a Honeywell mainframe. After powering up > everything manually the only the mag tape and card reader I/O controllers > had boot capability. Push the INIT and BOOT buttons and it would read and > load tape controller microcode from mag tape, then read and load the disk > controller microcode, then the processor's boot code, and then boot from > disk. It took just seconds for the mag tape part. Getting the front end > processors bootloaded, and getting online communications, timesharing, and > batch processing up took a while. > > This system was capable of booting from binary punched cards. We used to > try it periodically just to make sure that this capability worked. > I wonder which system that was. I have also booted various Honeywell L66 and DP300 but from what I remember you had to power everything up manually. I booted up a newly installed L66/10 from cards, it was done like that so we could correct the config. On the 4381 it was all done under control of the Microcode in the control processor. Having written that I now remember that loading the Microcode into IBM mainframes and device controllers was called IML or Initial Microcode Code.... Dave > -- > Michael Thompson From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 9 12:40:22 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 18:40:22 +0100 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <5E4C4CD0-87B4-4FA9-9844-071832C12D6C@comcast.net> References: <20150809153125.4597E18C10E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <008901d0d2c3$12927c30$37b77490$@ntlworld.com> <5E4C4CD0-87B4-4FA9-9844-071832C12D6C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <008a01d0d2ca$77e5f3d0$67b1db70$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning > Sent: 09 August 2015 18:22 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Classic programming > > > > On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > > > ... > > I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation called Algol68C > on a DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has got the > media for it, I still live in hope. I think there are some other implementations > around, I should make the effort to try one some time. > > There was a quite good Algol 68 for the CDC 6000 series. Maybe I should get one of those then.... :-) > There are also > oddities like an Algol 68 interpreter (not compiler) written in Algol 60. > > And there is an open source Algol 68 around today ? algol68g. I think that is the one I was thinking of. I should give it a go. Regards Rob From cube1 at charter.net Sun Aug 9 12:45:36 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 12:45:36 -0500 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C78F8D.8090401@sydex.com> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> <55C783F7.2050108@sydex.com> <55C78F8D.8090401@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C791C0.80205@charter.net> On 8/9/2015 12:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Good OS-es allowed an operator to mount tapes for his next few jobs, > without paying attention to paper labels and have the OS automatically > locate and assign tapes to the proper job. > > Can UNIX do that? > > --Chuck > Seems dangerous to me: duplicate data set names on different tapes would confuse it (plus, if the DSN is long, the entire DSN does not actually appear in the tape label). I worked with OS/360 and MVS in my career and we never did anything like that with it. Certainly one could imagine writing a process in Unix (or most any OS, for that matter) to do something like that where a separate process managed the tape drives, and then processes could connect to it to ask for tape data based on the label. I just can't imagine anyone WANTING to do that. JRJ From technobug at prelim.org Sun Aug 9 12:49:07 2015 From: technobug at prelim.org (Technobug) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 11:49:07 -0600 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: References: <55C77AE5.8030705@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <86F48A18-1122-4F63-AF02-363975877747@prelim.org> On 9 Aug 2015, at 10:14 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > The pedestal RX02s are around, but pretty rare. I think they were part > of a PDP-8 based word processor (VT78?), and/or part of the smaller > PDT11 systems. > > -- > Will > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-08-09 17:48, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>> >>> I found this on eBay, and I'm not sure what it is: >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-RX02-COMPUTER-SYSTEM-2-FLOPPY-DRIVES-UNTESTED-T27-/181827282211?hash=item2a55c02523 >>> >>> I haven't seen RX-02s in a case like this before, and some Googling >>> doesn't seem to reveal much of anything. >>> >>> Does anyone know what this is exactly? >> >> [?.] Looks like the base unit of my DECMate I - Word processing PDP-8 system. ->CRC From andy.holt at tesco.net Sun Aug 9 12:54:57 2015 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 17:54:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C78F8D.8090401@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1541615619.171181.1439142897692.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> > Good OS-es allowed an operator to mount tapes for his next few jobs, > without paying attention to paper labels and have the OS automatically > locate and assign tapes to the proper job. Even the old Operators Exec (and thus George 1 and 2) could do that on the ICL 1900 - I think it was referred-to as "AVR" (Automatic Volume Recognition) I took it so much for granted that I did not even think of mentioning it in the operational requirement for the replacement system. Quite a shock to discover its absence in GCOS on the Level 66. (The reason for its absence on big multi-tasking machines was probably to do with the scheduling on such being done by the OS, not the operators. Typically there was an extra console by the tape decks which told the operators which tapes to load for the next couple of jobs and didn't even schedule the job until the appropriate device was ready.) From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Aug 9 13:00:19 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 14:00:19 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <008a01d0d2ca$77e5f3d0$67b1db70$@ntlworld.com> References: <20150809153125.4597E18C10E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <008901d0d2c3$12927c30$37b77490$@ntlworld.com> <5E4C4CD0-87B4-4FA9-9844-071832C12D6C@comcast.net> <008a01d0d2ca$77e5f3d0$67b1db70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 9, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning >> Sent: 09 August 2015 18:22 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Classic programming >> >> >>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Robert Jarratt >> wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation called Algol68C >> on a DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has got the >> media for it, I still live in hope. I think there are some other implementations >> around, I should make the effort to try one some time. >> >> There was a quite good Algol 68 for the CDC 6000 series. > > Maybe I should get one of those then.... :-) Those are a bit hard to find, but there?s always DtCyber, the emulator. paul From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 9 13:10:23 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 11:10:23 -0700 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <008a01d0d2ca$77e5f3d0$67b1db70$@ntlworld.com> References: <20150809153125.4597E18C10E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <008901d0d2c3$12927c30$37b77490$@ntlworld.com> <5E4C4CD0-87B4-4FA9-9844-071832C12D6C@comcast.net> <008a01d0d2ca$77e5f3d0$67b1db70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <008F8725-2771-4573-B16F-DF038B0B4C78@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Aug-09, at 10:40 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning >> Sent: 09 August 2015 18:22 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Classic programming >> >>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Robert Jarratt >> wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation called Algol68C >> on a DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has got the >> media for it, I still live in hope. I think there are some other implementations >> around, I should make the effort to try one some time. >> >> There was a quite good Algol 68 for the CDC 6000 series. > > Maybe I should get one of those then.... :-) > >> There are also >> oddities like an Algol 68 interpreter (not compiler) written in Algol 60. >> >> And there is an open source Algol 68 around today ? algol68g. > > I think that is the one I was thinking of. I should give it a go. There was also AlgolW, supported on MTS. As MTS was being mentioned earlier I was going to ask if anyone knew whether the AlgolW compiler was included in the available distribution. From ben at bensinclair.com Sun Aug 9 13:11:44 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 13:11:44 -0500 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: <86F48A18-1122-4F63-AF02-363975877747@prelim.org> References: <55C77AE5.8030705@update.uu.se> <86F48A18-1122-4F63-AF02-363975877747@prelim.org> Message-ID: I made an offer, got refused, and now he's taken the listing down! I thought it might be a way to get some RX02s that I could use on my 11. On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Technobug wrote: > > On 9 Aug 2015, at 10:14 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> The pedestal RX02s are around, but pretty rare. I think they were part >> of a PDP-8 based word processor (VT78?), and/or part of the smaller >> PDT11 systems. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> On 2015-08-09 17:48, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>>> >>>> I found this on eBay, and I'm not sure what it is: >>>> >>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-RX02-COMPUTER-SYSTEM-2-FLOPPY-DRIVES-UNTESTED-T27-/181827282211?hash=item2a55c02523 >>>> >>>> I haven't seen RX-02s in a case like this before, and some Googling >>>> doesn't seem to reveal much of anything. >>>> >>>> Does anyone know what this is exactly? >>> >>> [?.] > Looks like the base unit of my DECMate I - Word processing PDP-8 system. > ->CRC -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 9 13:13:11 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 11:13:11 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C791C0.80205@charter.net> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> <55C783F7.2050108@sydex.com> <55C78F8D.8090401@sydex.com> <55C791C0.80205@charter.net> Message-ID: <55C79837.8050601@sydex.com> On 08/09/2015 10:45 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Seems dangerous to me: duplicate data set names on different tapes would > confuse it (plus, if the DSN is long, the entire DSN does not actually > appear in the tape label). I worked with OS/360 and MVS in my career > and we never did anything like that with it. So you'd trust your job to a 9-5 operator who really didn't care what the machine was doing to make tape assignments? Wow. Good thing that tapes have write-enable rings. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 9 13:22:53 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 19:22:53 +0100 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: <20150809153125.4597E18C10E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <008901d0d2c3$12927c30$37b77490$@ntlworld.com> <5E4C4CD0-87B4-4FA9-9844-071832C12D6C@comcast.net> <008a01d0d2ca$77e5f3d0$67b1db70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <009401d0d2d0$67e44cb0$37ace610$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning > Sent: 09 August 2015 19:00 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Classic programming > > > > On Aug 9, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > >> Koning > >> Sent: 09 August 2015 18:22 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: Classic programming > >> > >> > >>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Robert Jarratt > >>> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> ... > >>> I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation > >>> called Algol68C > >> on a DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has > >> got the media for it, I still live in hope. I think there are some > >> other implementations around, I should make the effort to try one some > time. > >> > >> There was a quite good Algol 68 for the CDC 6000 series. > > > > Maybe I should get one of those then.... :-) > > Those are a bit hard to find, but there?s always DtCyber, the emulator. > And I think I may not have enough 13A sockets to run one of those in my house anyway :-) I didn't know there was an emulator (never looked to be honest). I will add it to my to-do list, but my knowledge of these machines is absolutely zero. So getting something going might be a challenge, especially as it looks like I would also need to find some OS media somewhere as well. I do recall learning about the theoretical architecture of the scoreboard though when I was at University. The University had, iirc, a CDC Cyber 17, which I used for one of the programming courses (Pascal I think), but I disliked it having come from using a DECSYSTEM-20. Now that I think about it, I did do a course on Algol68 at University (although I knew the language already, having learned it on the DEC machine), and it may well have been on that Cyber. I can't remember the dialect though, may have been Algol68R. Regards Rob From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 13:25:39 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 19:25:39 +0100 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <008F8725-2771-4573-B16F-DF038B0B4C78@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20150809153125.4597E18C10E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <008901d0d2c3$12927c30$37b77490$@ntlworld.com> <5E4C4CD0-87B4-4FA9-9844-071832C12D6C@comcast.net> <008a01d0d2ca$77e5f3d0$67b1db70$@ntlworld.com> <008F8725-2771-4573-B16F-DF038B0B4C78@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <01cf01d0d2d0$cc312df0$649389d0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > Hilpert > Sent: 09 August 2015 19:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Classic programming > > On 2015-Aug-09, at 10:40 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > >> Koning > >> Sent: 09 August 2015 18:22 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: Classic programming > >> > >>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Robert Jarratt > >>> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> ... > >>> I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation > >>> called Algol68C > >> on a DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has > >> got the media for it, I still live in hope. I think there are some > >> other implementations around, I should make the effort to try one some > time. > >> > >> There was a quite good Algol 68 for the CDC 6000 series. > > > > Maybe I should get one of those then.... :-) > > > >> There are also > >> oddities like an Algol 68 interpreter (not compiler) written in Algol 60. > >> > >> And there is an open source Algol 68 around today - algol68g. > > > > I think that is the one I was thinking of. I should give it a go. > > > There was also AlgolW, supported on MTS. > > As MTS was being mentioned earlier I was going to ask if anyone knew > whether the AlgolW compiler was included in the available distribution. I believe that its included, but I haven't tried it. Dave G4UGM From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 13:27:55 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 19:27:55 +0100 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C79837.8050601@sydex.com> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> <55C783F7.2050108@sydex.com> <55C78F8D.8090401@sydex.com> <55C791C0.80205@charter.net> <55C79837.8050601@sydex.com> Message-ID: <01d001d0d2d1$1d2f47a0$578dd6e0$@gmail.com> If you had a tape master file then typically that had the same dataset name on the master in and out.... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 09 August 2015 19:13 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: SCSI Tape to TAP utility > > On 08/09/2015 10:45 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > > Seems dangerous to me: duplicate data set names on different tapes > > would confuse it (plus, if the DSN is long, the entire DSN does not > > actually appear in the tape label). I worked with OS/360 and MVS in > > my career and we never did anything like that with it. > > So you'd trust your job to a 9-5 operator who really didn't care what the > machine was doing to make tape assignments? > > Wow. Good thing that tapes have write-enable rings. > > --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Aug 9 13:46:12 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 14:46:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classic programming Message-ID: <20150809184612.8E99318C109@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > Algol 60, that is. It was used as the inspiration by just about > everything that followed I've just remembered that the Algol (probably Algol-60, but the manual doesn't say) interpreter used for the programming languages course at MIT was adapted from the Delphi (a homebrew PDP-11 OS used at MIT) version, to a version that would run under Unix V6. So it should be runnable under any PDP-11 emulator. I _think_ I have that on those backup tapes I'm trying to get read, so maybe someday (it's a pity none of that MIT Unix stuff seems to have escaped into preservation, at least, so far) it will be widely available. They had a BCPL compiler for the PDP-11 that ran under Unix, too. Ditto about 'on the tape'. > From: Phil Budne > Mostly I write SNOBOL4 throw away programs for textual transformations. Huh, that's what Regex-Replace is for! ;-) Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 9 14:16:30 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 12:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <55C78754.1020901@comcast.net> References: <55C78754.1020901@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Aug 2015, Douglas Taylor wrote: > I've watched this thread with interest because I am struggling with getting > up to speed using Microsoft Visual C++ version 1.5, which I think was their > first IDE. ??!? December 1993 1.0 was February 1993 Do you really mean "first Microsoft IDE"?? Howzbout QUICKC? (October 1987) or first C++? or first Windoze? (QuickC for Windows September 1991) or first Windoze C++? When I taught C, I forced ("mean teacher") my students to do at least one program using a command line compiler (suggested: GCC or PersonalC (DeSmet)), and to do at least one program using an IDE (suggested: TurboC, quickC, VisualC++, or Microsoft C/C++). I was even so mean that I made them create a source file AND an executable file, and even check the DIRectory to confirm that the executable was newer than the source. From useddec at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 14:30:47 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 14:30:47 -0500 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've seen / had them before. the top looks like it is the one for the MINC box, On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I found this on eBay, and I'm not sure what it is: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-RX02-COMPUTER-SYSTEM-2-FLOPPY-DRIVES-UNTESTED-T27-/181827282211?hash=item2a55c02523 > > I haven't seen RX-02s in a case like this before, and some Googling > doesn't seem to reveal much of anything. > > Does anyone know what this is exactly? > > Thanks! > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 9 14:39:42 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 12:39:42 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <01d001d0d2d1$1d2f47a0$578dd6e0$@gmail.com> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> <55C783F7.2050108@sydex.com> <55C78F8D.8090401@sydex.com> <55C791C0.80205@charter.net> <55C79837.8050601@sydex.com> <01d001d0d2d1$1d2f47a0$578dd6e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55C7AC7E.5030308@sydex.com> On 08/09/2015 11:27 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > If you had a tape master file then typically that had the same > dataset name on the master in and out.... But obviously, not the same VSN... There's (potentially) a lot of information in a set of labels, particularly if any of the user labels are used. See, for example, this CERN document: https://it-dep-fio-ds.web.cern.ch/it-dep-fio-ds/documentation/tapedrive/labels.html --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 15:25:45 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 21:25:45 +0100 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C7AC7E.5030308@sydex.com> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> <55C783F7.2050108@sydex.com> <55C78F8D.8090401@sydex.com> <55C791C0.80205@charter.net> <55C79837.8050601@sydex.com> <01d001d0d2d1$1d2f47a0$578dd6e0$@gmail.com> <55C7AC7E.5030308@sydex.com> Message-ID: <024601d0d2e1$92bda100$b838e300$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 09 August 2015 20:40 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: SCSI Tape to TAP utility > > On 08/09/2015 11:27 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > If you had a tape master file then typically that had the same dataset > > name on the master in and out.... > > But obviously, not the same VSN... > > There's (potentially) a lot of information in a set of labels, particularly if any of > the user labels are used. > > See, for example, this CERN document: > > https://it-dep-fio-ds.web.cern.ch/it-dep-fio- > ds/documentation/tapedrive/labels.html > > > --Chuck On the Honeywell we had a Tape Management System that managed the tapes. All the tapes were filed by tape number, and the system knew which file was on which tape. It would tell the operators which tape number to mount. It would also manage the scratch pool of expired tapes and tell them which tapes to have ready for new outputs. It also managed off site storage. We trusted it and never removed a write ring. If you mounted a tape with current data the system read the label and dis-mounted the tape.... Dave Wade From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 10:40:47 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 11:40:47 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: When we first powered up the PDP-12 the main fuse for the VR12 display blew. A replacement fuse did the same. We thought that the brown goo in the bottom of the chassis had leaked from the high-voltage power supply, and the high-voltage power supply is directly connected to the input, so that was the first suspect. We bench tested the high-voltage power supply using a Variac on the input. With a 10VAC input there was no output at all. Increasing the input voltage did not change the missing output voltage. I hate to mention this but... The two capacitors in the voltage-doubler circuit are connected in series between the output lead and ground. We connected a current limited lab power supply to the output lead and ground and slowly increased the voltage while watching the current draw. With the voltage stable the current draw was a few microamps. We increased the output voltage of the power supply to the 64VDC max, disconnected the power supply, and measured the voltage across the caps. It very slowly decreased, so maybe the caps were OK. We reconnected the Variac to the input and with 10VAC the high-voltage power supply had a 1000VDC output. We put 10x 500kOhm resistors in series across the output and increased the Variac voltage. By measuring the voltage across one resistor we could see that the output was more than 10,000VDC. The resistors started smoking so we knew that we had a lot of high-voltage available. So, once again the magic of reforming capacitors saves another piece of equipment. -- Michael Thompson From davemaho at rcn.com Sun Aug 9 11:03:01 2015 From: davemaho at rcn.com (davemaho at rcn.com) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 12:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1871994641.18493837.1439136181971.JavaMail.root@rcn.com> It looks like it's from a VT-278 setup, sometimes called the 'DECMATE 1. I had two complete setups, and now have one left. With the VT-278, it will run OS-278, COS-300, and WPS-8 (My systems were both WPS-8's, but I have a copy of VT-278 somewhere in my physical 'archives'). BR, Dave Mahoney Straight-8 2 '8/e's (one RXO1 based, one RX02 based) ASR-33, ASR-35, VT-101, VT-102 VT-278 'Bits' of all..... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Sinclair" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2015 11:48:56 AM Subject: DEC RX02-PA? I found this on eBay, and I'm not sure what it is: http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-RX02-COMPUTER-SYSTEM-2-FLOPPY-DRIVES-UNTESTED-T27-/181827282211?hash=item2a55c02523 I haven't seen RX-02s in a case like this before, and some Googling doesn't seem to reveal much of anything. Does anyone know what this is exactly? Thanks! -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From scaron at umich.edu Sun Aug 9 11:11:33 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 12:11:33 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looked briefly and my suspicion is that it's genuinely an RX02 ... or most of the major guts of one ... repackaged into a much larger and uglier cabinet, LOL. There's a good chance it is what it says it is ... the exposed control board in Pic 2 looks basically identical to that in my (standard cabinet) RX02. You're right though, odd cabinet, never seen it before. Best, Sean On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 11:48 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I found this on eBay, and I'm not sure what it is: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-RX02-COMPUTER-SYSTEM-2-FLOPPY-DRIVES-UNTESTED-T27-/181827282211?hash=item2a55c02523 > > I haven't seen RX-02s in a case like this before, and some Googling > doesn't seem to reveal much of anything. > > Does anyone know what this is exactly? > > Thanks! > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 9 11:51:58 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 16:51:58 +0000 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > We reconnected the Variac to the input and with 10VAC the high-voltage > power supply had a 1000VDC output. We put 10x 500kOhm resistors in series > across the output and increased the Variac voltage. By measuring the > voltage across one resistor we could see that the output was more than > 10,000VDC. The resistors started smoking so we knew that we had a lot of > high-voltage available. Wait a second! Are you sure those capacitors are electrolytics, because I am almost sure they are oil-filled paper types. I have never seen an electrolytic with a voltage rating of 5000V or so. And they would not be very high capacitance in that circuit. I've worked on the VR14, and the EHT module in that is similar (transformer + voltage doubler. It's an oil-filled can, the capacitors are certainly not electrolytics. Incidentally the oil may well be polychlorinated biphenyl based, if you are worried about such things (FWIW a friend who worked on _large_ transformers told me the amount in a VR14 EHT can is not going to do me any harm unless I do something very silly with it. Just wash your hands well if you get any on them). > So, once again the magic of reforming capacitors saves another piece of > equipment. You can't reform non-electrolytic capacitors. More likely they are leaky paper types and you are drying them out. -tony From scaron at umich.edu Sun Aug 9 12:14:29 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 13:14:29 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: <55C78688.8030901@comcast.net> References: <55C78688.8030901@comcast.net> Message-ID: DEC did sell a version of the BA23 that was intended to be used just as an expansion peripherals cabinet. You shouldn't have any problems putting HH devices in BA23 bays (so long as you have the appropriate interfaces to drive them) but you may need i.e. 3.5" to 5.25" bracket to attach to the BA23 sleds, and you'll have (cosmetic) blank space on top after putting a HH device in a FH bay. I imagine you'd have to make a special bracket to mount a TZ30/RX33 over-under in one of the 5.25" bays in the BA23 but it could certainly be done ... No such factory configuration exists AFAIK... I think the BA23 was fairly superseded by the S-box when those peripherals hit the market. Best, Sean On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > On 8/9/2015 11:48 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > >> I found this on eBay, and I'm not sure what it is: >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-RX02-COMPUTER-SYSTEM-2-FLOPPY-DRIVES-UNTESTED-T27-/181827282211?hash=item2a55c02523 >> >> I haven't seen RX-02s in a case like this before, and some Googling >> doesn't seem to reveal much of anything. >> >> Does anyone know what this is exactly? >> >> Thanks! >> >> This seller (who has a bizarre sounding name) also has a pair of RX33 > floppies for sale. The mounting hardware is interesting, was there ever > something like that > for the BA23? I always wanted to mount a TZ30 and RX33 drive in place of > the RX50 drive, was that ever an option? > > From scaron at umich.edu Sun Aug 9 12:22:37 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 13:22:37 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <20150809152517.01BE318C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150809152517.01BE318C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Have you tried Plan 9? It's like a breath of fresh air ... :O Best, Sean On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Eric Christopherson > > > people who like to program in languages or language implementations > or > > libraries that are no longer in common mainstream use? > > I prefer to write code under (effectively) V6 Unix; I find that I can get > things working and done faster there than in any other environment. Of > course, > if one sticks to just the Standard I/O library, you can get more or less > than > same environment pretty much everywhere: Windows, Linux, etc. > > > > From: Sean Conner > > > My current Holy Grail piece of software would be Synthesis OS---an > > operating system written in assembly (in 1991) that can recompile and > > specialize itself on the fly [6]---basically, a program can request > and get > > custom system calls to use. > > ... > > [6] http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/ > > Wow. I had a look at that site: Very Very Very Cool. > > Is source still extant anywhere? (I know, I could email the creator...) > > > Also, ISTR a post which talked about Guy Steele working on EMACS. I don't > think that can be correct - Guy had, IIRC, departed MIT before I got to > Tech > Sq, and EMACS had just started being developed when I got there. > > As to who actually did do EMACS, it was a cast of characters, and I wasn't > enough part of it to know who should be listed. RMS was, of course, primus > inter pares, but there were others. E.g. I remember Gene Cicarelli did > some stuff. > > There was this thing called IVORY which IIRC 'purified' TECO code so that > it > could be dumped out in a compressed form (for faster loading, execution, > etc > - it may have also been possible to have it read-only, and the page(s) > shared > between multiple EMACS instances, but my memory is foggy on this), and Gene > did that. > > Noel > From scaron at umich.edu Sun Aug 9 13:33:11 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 14:33:11 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <01cf01d0d2d0$cc312df0$649389d0$@gmail.com> References: <20150809153125.4597E18C10E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <008901d0d2c3$12927c30$37b77490$@ntlworld.com> <5E4C4CD0-87B4-4FA9-9844-071832C12D6C@comcast.net> <008a01d0d2ca$77e5f3d0$67b1db70$@ntlworld.com> <008F8725-2771-4573-B16F-DF038B0B4C78@cs.ubc.ca> <01cf01d0d2d0$cc312df0$649389d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, *ALGOLW is included and working in the D6.0 MTS tapes. Best, Sean On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > > Hilpert > > Sent: 09 August 2015 19:10 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Classic programming > > > > On 2015-Aug-09, at 10:40 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > > >> Koning > > >> Sent: 09 August 2015 18:22 > > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >> Subject: Re: Classic programming > > >> > > >>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Robert Jarratt > > >>> > > >> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> ... > > >>> I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation > > >>> called Algol68C > > >> on a DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has > > >> got the media for it, I still live in hope. I think there are some > > >> other implementations around, I should make the effort to try one some > > time. > > >> > > >> There was a quite good Algol 68 for the CDC 6000 series. > > > > > > Maybe I should get one of those then.... :-) > > > > > >> There are also > > >> oddities like an Algol 68 interpreter (not compiler) written in Algol > 60. > > >> > > >> And there is an open source Algol 68 around today - algol68g. > > > > > > I think that is the one I was thinking of. I should give it a go. > > > > > > There was also AlgolW, supported on MTS. > > > > As MTS was being mentioned earlier I was going to ask if anyone knew > > whether the AlgolW compiler was included in the available distribution. > > I believe that its included, but I haven't tried it. > > Dave > G4UGM > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 9 16:18:03 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 15:18:03 -0600 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: <20150809152517.01BE318C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55C7C38B.1060602@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/9/2015 11:22 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > Have you tried Plan 9? It's like a breath of fresh air ... :O > > Best, > > Sean But alas almost all the classic machines endup being a IBM 360 or a PDP-10. I don't think plan 9 was written for them. Ben. PS: checks Google to see how much memory PL/I had to compile in ... 44Kb version 1. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 9 16:40:09 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 14:40:09 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <024601d0d2e1$92bda100$b838e300$@gmail.com> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> <55C783F7.2050108@sydex.com> <55C78F8D.8090401@sydex.com> <55C791C0.80205@charter.net> <55C79837.8050601@sydex.com> <01d001d0d2d1$1d2f47a0$578dd6e0$@gmail.com> <55C7AC7E.5030308@sydex.com> <024601d0d2e1$92bda100$b838e300$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55C7C8B9.9080800@sydex.com> On 08/09/2015 01:25 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > On the Honeywell we had a Tape Management System that managed the > tapes. All the tapes were filed by tape number, and the system knew > which file was on which tape. It would tell the operators which tape > number to mount. It would also manage the scratch pool of expired > tapes and tell them which tapes to have ready for new outputs. It > also managed off site storage. We trusted it and never removed a > write ring. If you mounted a tape with current data the system read > the label and dis-mounted the tape.... I think that most large mainframe OSs eventually had a similar feature. When you had operators who were barely trained, it was best to leave it to the system. On the CDC 60x and 65x, my tapes never had a write ring in them (what else are you going to play ring-toss with while waiting for your job to complete?). I always kept a few cards in my shirt pocked to stick behind the mounted reel and trip the write-enable mechanism (which latched). When the autoloading 66x drives came in, part of my world disappeared. I've never tried to see if that trick works on minicomputer reel-to-reel drives. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Aug 9 16:57:23 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 17:57:23 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <20150809184612.8E99318C109@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150809184612.8E99318C109@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7AD1CA59-3D26-4DEB-B157-63D18EF2744B@comcast.net> > On Aug 9, 2015, at 2:46 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> Algol 60, that is. It was used as the inspiration by just about >> everything that followed > > I've just remembered that the Algol (probably Algol-60, but the manual > doesn't say) interpreter used for the programming languages course at MIT was > adapted from the Delphi (a homebrew PDP-11 OS used at MIT) version, to a > version that would run under Unix V6. So it should be runnable under any > PDP-11 emulator. There?s DECUS ALGOL, which is essentially a PDP-11 version of Burroughs Extended Algol. It generates bytecode which even looks somewhat like B5500 machine code. I still have a copy, though I need to do some work to find the correct sources and build procedure for the runtime support code. paul From cube1 at charter.net Sun Aug 9 17:03:32 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 17:03:32 -0500 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C79837.8050601@sydex.com> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> <55C783F7.2050108@sydex.com> <55C78F8D.8090401@sydex.com> <55C791C0.80205@charter.net> <55C79837.8050601@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C7CE34.6010601@charter.net> No, the OS did the drive assignments, and then prompted the operator to do the mount of the appropriate VolSer on a given drive. The label was of course checked as part of the OS/360 open process, and if there was a label, and it was not expired, one could not write over it, or, whether reading or writing, that the label matched the requested DSN. (Remember that OS/360 never heard of the 3480 tapes and their autoloaders - things presumably changed then, along with tape library management software, but by then I had moved on from mainframes, and what little I did with them didn't involve tape). The operators I worked with almost never mismounted a tape. JRJ On 8/9/2015 1:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/09/2015 10:45 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> Seems dangerous to me: duplicate data set names on different tapes would >> confuse it (plus, if the DSN is long, the entire DSN does not actually >> appear in the tape label). I worked with OS/360 and MVS in my career >> and we never did anything like that with it. > > So you'd trust your job to a 9-5 operator who really didn't care what > the machine was doing to make tape assignments? > > Wow. Good thing that tapes have write-enable rings. > > --Chuck > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Aug 9 17:06:36 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 23:06:36 +0100 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: References: <55C78688.8030901@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55C7CEEC.6070001@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/08/2015 18:14, Sean Caron wrote: > DEC did sell a version of the BA23 that was intended to be used just as an > expansion peripherals cabinet. You shouldn't have any problems putting HH > devices in BA23 bays (so long as you have the appropriate interfaces to > drive them) but you may need i.e. 3.5" to 5.25" bracket to attach to the > BA23 sleds, and you'll have (cosmetic) blank space on top after putting a > HH device in a FH bay. I imagine you'd have to make a special bracket to > mount a TZ30/RX33 over-under in one of the 5.25" bays in the BA23 but it > could certainly be done ... No such factory configuration exists AFAIK If a TZ30 has the same mounting holes as a 5.25" disk drive, it's doable. There's an official DEC mounting kit to mount 2 x RX33 where you'd normally find an RX50 in a BA23/BA123. It's basically two side plates, to hold the upper and lower drives together. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From ben at bensinclair.com Sun Aug 9 17:49:03 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 17:49:03 -0500 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: <55C7CEEC.6070001@dunnington.plus.com> References: <55C78688.8030901@comcast.net> <55C7CEEC.6070001@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: If it was a salvageable set of RX02s, it would have been nice to have! Too bad he pulled the listing. On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 5:06 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 09/08/2015 18:14, Sean Caron wrote: >> >> DEC did sell a version of the BA23 that was intended to be used just as an >> expansion peripherals cabinet. You shouldn't have any problems putting HH >> devices in BA23 bays (so long as you have the appropriate interfaces to >> drive them) but you may need i.e. 3.5" to 5.25" bracket to attach to the >> BA23 sleds, and you'll have (cosmetic) blank space on top after putting a >> HH device in a FH bay. I imagine you'd have to make a special bracket to >> mount a TZ30/RX33 over-under in one of the 5.25" bays in the BA23 but it >> could certainly be done ... No such factory configuration exists AFAIK > > > If a TZ30 has the same mounting holes as a 5.25" disk drive, it's doable. > There's an official DEC mounting kit to mount 2 x RX33 where you'd normally > find an RX50 in a BA23/BA123. It's basically two side plates, to hold the > upper and lower drives together. > > -- > Pete > > Pete Turnbull -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Aug 9 19:01:26 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 20:01:26 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: <55C7CEEC.6070001@dunnington.plus.com> References: <55C78688.8030901@comcast.net> <55C7CEEC.6070001@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <55C7E9D6.6000807@compsys.to> >Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 09/08/2015 18:14, Sean Caron wrote: > >> DEC did sell a version of the BA23 that was intended to be used just >> as an >> expansion peripherals cabinet. You shouldn't have any problems >> putting HH >> devices in BA23 bays (so long as you have the appropriate interfaces to >> drive them) but you may need i.e. 3.5" to 5.25" bracket to attach to the >> BA23 sleds, and you'll have (cosmetic) blank space on top after >> putting a >> HH device in a FH bay. I imagine you'd have to make a special bracket to >> mount a TZ30/RX33 over-under in one of the 5.25" bays in the BA23 but it >> could certainly be done ... No such factory configuration exists AFAIK > > If a TZ30 has the same mounting holes as a 5.25" disk drive, it's > doable. There's an official DEC mounting kit to mount 2 x RX33 where > you'd normally find an RX50 in a BA23/BA123. It's basically two side > plates, to hold the upper and lower drives together. There is a very simple solution to mount 2 * RX33 floppy drives if you have an old RX50 which no longer works - or you at least can borrow the outer shell from a working RX50. There is sufficient room when 2 * RX33 floppy drives are stuffed into an empty RX50 shell to hold the edge connectors along with a Y power splitter. Then use a few bolts to make the empty shell rigid by attaching the now FULL RX50 shell (naturally with the 2 * RX33 drives inside) to both RX33 drives plus attaching the original black plastic sled to the bottom in its original location. I suggest that you first test everything out to make sure that the connections are working before placing the 2 * RX33 drives inside the empty RX50 shell. Once finished, the 2 * RX33 drives look very much like a dual RX50, but the handles to lock in the floppy media give the situation away on close inspection. ALSO, it seems best to mount both RX33 drives right-side UP. The lower handle works much more easily that way. I still have my dual RX33 set-up in this manner. The only difference is that the cable ends in two edge connectors rather than the header used for the RX50. So it does work. This probably works since the RQDX3 is set to handle the dual RX50, so having 2 * RX33 floppy drives is equivalent. NOTE that the RX33 will work ONLY with the RQDX3, not the RQDX1 or RQDX2. In addition, with the RX33 drive, DEC actually supports the command to perform a Low Level Format which was NEVER possible with the RX50 drive with DEC hardware in a PDP-11 Qbus system. Under RT-11, just FORMAT DU0: As far as 1 * RX33 and a TZ30, I imagine that would also be fairly easy as well, although I don't know how much clearance is available inside the empty RX50 shell for the cable to the TZ30 tape drive. If someone actually attempts to place both the RX33 and the TZ30 inside the RX50 shell, please let us know what happens. Jerome Fine From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com Sun Aug 9 19:13:54 2015 From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 10:13:54 +1000 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <7AD1CA59-3D26-4DEB-B157-63D18EF2744B@comcast.net> References: <20150809184612.8E99318C109@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7AD1CA59-3D26-4DEB-B157-63D18EF2744B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 7:57 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > There?s DECUS ALGOL, which is essentially a PDP-11 version of Burroughs Extended Algol. It generates bytecode which even looks somewhat like B5500 machine code. I still have a copy, though I need to do some work to find the correct sources and build procedure for the runtime support code. Originally written by Barry James Folsom, and later maintained by Gregory David Hosler (of DEC). From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Aug 9 19:19:51 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 20:19:51 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: <20150809184612.8E99318C109@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7AD1CA59-3D26-4DEB-B157-63D18EF2744B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <19E637E1-EB64-4E95-A402-83357CBFEB82@comcast.net> > On Aug 9, 2015, at 8:13 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 7:57 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> There?s DECUS ALGOL, which is essentially a PDP-11 version of Burroughs Extended Algol. It generates bytecode which even looks somewhat like B5500 machine code. I still have a copy, though I need to do some work to find the correct sources and build procedure for the runtime support code. > > Originally written by Barry James Folsom, and later maintained by > Gregory David Hosler (of DEC). Right. And further tweaked by myself, also at DEC (for RSTS/E), though I don?t believe that version was sent back to DECUS. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Aug 9 19:29:34 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 02:29:34 +0200 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <1541615619.171181.1439142897692.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <1541615619.171181.1439142897692.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <55C7F06E.3040205@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-09 19:54, ANDY HOLT wrote: >> Good OS-es allowed an operator to mount tapes for his next few jobs, >> without paying attention to paper labels and have the OS automatically >> locate and assign tapes to the proper job. > > > Even the old Operators Exec (and thus George 1 and 2) could do that > on the ICL 1900 - I think it was referred-to as "AVR" (Automatic Volume Recognition) > I took it so much for granted that I did not even think of mentioning > it in the operational requirement for the replacement system. > Quite a shock to discover its absence in GCOS on the Level 66. > > (The reason for its absence on big multi-tasking machines was probably to do with > the scheduling on such being done by the OS, not the operators. Typically there > was an extra console by the tape decks which told the operators which tapes to load > for the next couple of jobs and didn't even schedule the job until the appropriate > device was ready.) You should look at the operator interface in TOPS-20... It's a marvel of beauty in this area. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Aug 9 19:32:08 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 02:32:08 +0200 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <20150809184612.8E99318C109@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150809184612.8E99318C109@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55C7F108.1090403@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-09 20:46, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > > Algol 60, that is. It was used as the inspiration by just about > > everything that followed > > I've just remembered that the Algol (probably Algol-60, but the manual > doesn't say) interpreter used for the programming languages course at MIT was > adapted from the Delphi (a homebrew PDP-11 OS used at MIT) version, to a > version that would run under Unix V6. So it should be runnable under any > PDP-11 emulator. > > I _think_ I have that on those backup tapes I'm trying to get read, so maybe > someday (it's a pity none of that MIT Unix stuff seems to have escaped into > preservation, at least, so far) it will be widely available. > > They had a BCPL compiler for the PDP-11 that ran under Unix, too. Ditto about > 'on the tape'. I have a BCPL compiler for RSX here... Never used it myself, so I don't know how good/bad it might be. I think it came from the DECUS library. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 19:34:22 2015 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 18:34:22 -0600 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Eric Christopherson < echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > Is there a subset of this group for people who like to program in > languages or language implementations or libraries that are no longer > in common mainstream use? Or other groups for such a thing? > > -- > Eric Christopherson > I spend a great deal of time programming in MUMPS, and I also love COBOL. Also a bit of 8086 assembly language and lots of BASIC. Would spend time in PL/I if I had more time. From wcn440 at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 19:39:42 2015 From: wcn440 at gmail.com (Bill Newman) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 17:39:42 -0700 Subject: Apollo DN series HP root account Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20150809173229.01cf8d38@gmail.com> I have a vintage apollo question... In the late 1980's when HP acquired Apollo Computer Inc, I recall there was an HP root account, that shipped with every new machine. In many cases this account was not removed. I recently acquired a DN3000 and to my amazement it was clean, and booted to an SR10.4 login prompt. Does anybody remember that HP account and password? Alternative cracks would be welcomed as well. Bill Newman From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 9 19:57:47 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 17:57:47 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C7CE34.6010601@charter.net> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> <55C783F7.2050108@sydex.com> <55C78F8D.8090401@sydex.com> <55C791C0.80205@charter.net> <55C79837.8050601@sydex.com> <55C7CE34.6010601@charter.net> Message-ID: <55C7F70B.8000009@sydex.com> On 08/09/2015 03:03 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > No, the OS did the drive assignments, and then prompted the operator > to do the mount of the appropriate VolSer on a given drive. The > label was of course checked as part of the OS/360 open process, and > if there was a label, and it was not expired, one could not write > over it, or, whether reading or writing, that the label matched the > requested DSN. > > (Remember that OS/360 never heard of the 3480 tapes and their > autoloaders - things presumably changed then, along with tape > library management software, but by then I had moved on from > mainframes, and what little I did with them didn't involve tape). > > The operators I worked with almost never mismounted a tape. I'd pretty much left the 360 world after DOS/360 (that really dates me), so I couldn't comment--except that I never trusted an operator to mount tapes, if I could do anything about it. A lot of the tapes came from customers who supplied them to demonstrate a problem. Losing one meant a lot of apologies and begging. Much of my big-iron days were spent in operating system work, so I needed the machine all to myself in any case---you know, middle-of-the-night block time, after the CEs were through. Build a tape, deadstart it, watch the machine crash, get a dump, punch some cards, lather, rinse, repeat. Come home to grab a shower and dinner and be back in time for the 9AM status meeting. Those years have affected my sleep habits all the way to my "golden years". They didn't do much for my social life either. --Chuck From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com Sun Aug 9 21:01:45 2015 From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 12:01:45 +1000 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <19E637E1-EB64-4E95-A402-83357CBFEB82@comcast.net> References: <20150809184612.8E99318C109@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7AD1CA59-3D26-4DEB-B157-63D18EF2744B@comcast.net> <19E637E1-EB64-4E95-A402-83357CBFEB82@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Right. And further tweaked by myself, also at DEC (for RSTS/E), though I don?t believe that version was sent back to DECUS. Neat! I'm a big fan of RSTS/E, are you able to make your tweaked version available? From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Aug 9 21:14:13 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 22:14:13 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: <55C7E9D6.6000807@compsys.to> References: <55C78688.8030901@comcast.net> <55C7CEEC.6070001@dunnington.plus.com> <55C7E9D6.6000807@compsys.to> Message-ID: <55C808F5.3090607@comcast.net> On 8/9/2015 8:01 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> On 09/08/2015 18:14, Sean Caron wrote: >> >>> DEC did sell a version of the BA23 that was intended to be used just >>> as an >>> expansion peripherals cabinet. You shouldn't have any problems >>> putting HH >>> devices in BA23 bays (so long as you have the appropriate interfaces to >>> drive them) but you may need i.e. 3.5" to 5.25" bracket to attach to >>> the >>> BA23 sleds, and you'll have (cosmetic) blank space on top after >>> putting a >>> HH device in a FH bay. I imagine you'd have to make a special >>> bracket to >>> mount a TZ30/RX33 over-under in one of the 5.25" bays in the BA23 >>> but it >>> could certainly be done ... No such factory configuration exists AFAIK >> >> If a TZ30 has the same mounting holes as a 5.25" disk drive, it's >> doable. There's an official DEC mounting kit to mount 2 x RX33 where >> you'd normally find an RX50 in a BA23/BA123. It's basically two side >> plates, to hold the upper and lower drives together. > > There is a very simple solution to mount 2 * RX33 floppy drives > if you have an old RX50 which no longer works - or you at least > can borrow the outer shell from a working RX50. There is > sufficient room when 2 * RX33 floppy drives are stuffed into > an empty RX50 shell to hold the edge connectors along with > a Y power splitter. Then use a few bolts to make the empty > shell rigid by attaching the now FULL RX50 shell (naturally > with the 2 * RX33 drives inside) to both RX33 drives plus > attaching the original black plastic sled to the bottom in its > original location. I suggest that you first test everything out > to make sure that the connections are working before placing > the 2 * RX33 drives inside the empty RX50 shell. Once > finished, the 2 * RX33 drives look very much like a dual > RX50, but the handles to lock in the floppy media give the > situation away on close inspection. ALSO, it seems best > to mount both RX33 drives right-side UP. The lower > handle works much more easily that way. I still have my > dual RX33 set-up in this manner. The only difference is that > the cable ends in two edge connectors rather than the > header used for the RX50. So it does work. > > This probably works since the RQDX3 is set to handle the > dual RX50, so having 2 * RX33 floppy drives is equivalent. > NOTE that the RX33 will work ONLY with the RQDX3, > not the RQDX1 or RQDX2. In addition, with the RX33 > drive, DEC actually supports the command to perform a > Low Level Format which was NEVER possible with the > RX50 drive with DEC hardware in a PDP-11 Qbus system. > Under RT-11, just FORMAT DU0: > > As far as 1 * RX33 and a TZ30, I imagine that would also > be fairly easy as well, although I don't know how much > clearance is available inside the empty RX50 shell for the > cable to the TZ30 tape drive. If someone actually attempts > to place both the RX33 and the TZ30 inside the RX50 shell, > please let us know what happens. > > Jerome Fine Interesting solution, the reason I asked is because I have a floor mounted BA23 PDP11 and a RQZX1 controller which will run a floppy, disk and tape. I think it will run a TZ30 tape, haven't tried yet. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 9 21:33:15 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 22:33:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lucas-Lehmer Test (Was Classic programming) In-Reply-To: <55C55D48.7060502@compsys.to> References: <55C4EA1C.3000109@compsys.to> <201508071751.NAA07552@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55C55D48.7060502@compsys.to> Message-ID: <201508100233.WAA24906@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Are you aware of faster-than-n^2 multiplication algorithms [...] > Actually, when the algorithm is to square a value, the difficulty > reduces to ONLY ( n^2 + n ) / 2 which is ...still O(n^2). :-) > IN ADDITION, it is the Lucas-Lehmer primality test: I should look it up someday. (The Wikipedia link is of no use to me because Wikipedia is no longer willing to serve content over HTTP as far as I can tell.) > that I wish to implement (so I can understand the details along with > being able to enjoy the challenge). I can understand that. I've done that with various things myself. > So the series of one billion bit multiplications must be repeated > (one billion - 2) times. ...ouch! > I understand both the Karatsuba and Toom-Cook algorithms sufficiently > to EVENTUALLY implement both at this point. I've implemented Karatsuba. I looked into it and decided that, for my purposes, even Toom-3 wasn't worth the bother, so I didn't investigate enough to learn how to implement it - one of the doc files for the program in question says, after explaining Karatsuba, | It is possible to split A and B into more than two pieces and pull | basically the same trick, leading to an even further reduction in the | exponent - this is Toom-Cook multiplication. However, what partial | products are needed and how to combine them get correspondingly more | complicated. While the larger splitting factors do give asymptotically | faster algorithms, the overhead is high enough that the point at which | they become faster in practice rapidly exceeeds the size of numbers | this program is intended for, to the point where it's not worth the | bother of going Toom-Cook (and definitely not worth using | Sch?nhage-Strassen or Furer). "[T]he size of numbers this program is intended for" maxes out somewhere around 15K bits, nowhere near what you're working with. > If I can perform each squaring operation in just one second, it > should take only about 5 years to perform the squaring one billion > times. That doesn't sound right. A mean year is 365.2425 * 24 * 60 * 60 seconds, which my calculator program says is 31556952. Dividing this into 1000000000, I get 31.6887+, not "about 5". Did I miss something? > Unfortunately, the Sch?nhage-Strassen algorithm is still beyond my > capability. However, I hope to master it eventually and implement > the code. I hope to too. But I currently am nowhere near that; my understanding is that the current state of the art in multiplication is FFT-based things, and I have never truly understood FFTs - I still don't entirely understand even continuous Fourier transforms. > If anyone can comment on my question regarding the [DLLs] > Also, a link to information about how to implement the > Sch?nhage-Strassen algorithm [...] I can't really help you with either one. Sounds as though you've already gone further than I have in this direction, so I would be more likely to follow you than lead you. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 23:54:18 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 21:54:18 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8850E3DA628144899BA9BA0DC826469C@workshop> Well, Chuck, thanks a bunch, this is very useful and quite difficult code to write from scratch. How does one compile for DOS by the way (I have to admit I am too young to have ever tried), and get a copy of MSC 8.00C. Is the DOS compiler buried in some part of Visual Studio? I have some old versions dating back from Windows 95 time, when it was called Visual Studio 97... Marc >From: Chuck Guzis >Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility >A couple of weeks ago, I offered to share the source and executable for >a SCSI tape-to-SIMH .TAP file utility for MSDOS. >To run it, you'll need an ASPI driver for your SCSI adapter. >It was compiled using MSC 8.00C. >Find it here: >https://www.dropbox.com/s/x6qiudlpyitgxom/STP2T02.ZIP?dl=0 >Enjoy, >Chuck From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 23:57:33 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 21:57:33 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D6E04A56C854339BD64B24901BD7F6B@workshop> Hey, I'll take the offer, I am interested in both. Marc > Jay Jaeger wrote: > If anyone is interested, I have code for a Linux SCSI tape to > AWSTAPE program, and a program that translates aws format to a raw > byte stream. Not sure if I have one that translates to the SimH .tap > format, though. GNU C. > Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a Linux utility to translate SIMH .tap to raw binary, if that's > interesting to anyone. I would have thought that such utilities existed > already. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 9 23:57:54 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 04:57:54 +0000 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C7C8B9.9080800@sydex.com> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> <55C783F7.2050108@sydex.com> <55C78F8D.8090401@sydex.com> <55C791C0.80205@charter.net> <55C79837.8050601@sydex.com> <01d001d0d2d1$1d2f47a0$578dd6e0$@gmail.com> <55C7AC7E.5030308@sydex.com> <024601d0d2e1$92bda100$b838e300$@gmail.com>,<55C7C8B9.9080800@sydex.com> Message-ID: > I always kept a few cards in my shirt pocked to stick > behind the mounted reel and trip the write-enable mechanism (which > latched). When the autoloading 66x drives came in, part of my world > disappeared. I've never tried to see if that trick works on minicomputer > reel-to-reel drives. It should do. The few minicomputer magtape drives I've been inside have a solenoid on the write-enable pin. If it is pushed in part way, a microswtich operated and the solenoid pulls it in further to keep it away from the write enable ring. Otherwise, I think there would be tremendous wear on said ring. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 10 00:21:14 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 22:21:14 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <8850E3DA628144899BA9BA0DC826469C@workshop> References: <8850E3DA628144899BA9BA0DC826469C@workshop> Message-ID: <55C834CA.10006@sydex.com> On 08/09/2015 09:54 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > Well, Chuck, thanks a bunch, this is very useful and quite difficult > code to write from scratch. How does one compile for DOS by the way > (I have to admit I am too young to have ever tried), and get a copy > of MSC 8.00C. Is the DOS compiler buried in some part of Visual > Studio? I have some old versions dating back from Windows 95 time, > when it was called Visual Studio 97... Marc I believe it was tossed into Visual Studio 97 as a separate CD (not part of the usual packet of Visual Basic, 32-bit C++, Visual J++, etc.) So you probably already have it. I don't install the MS-specitic stuff (e.g. COM), just the compiler binaries and basic libraries and include files. It does require some DOS extender support (e.g. run it on Win9x or install HXDOS which will also work). I'd be surprised if there weren't a free version wandering around the web; sort of like MASM 6.x. With a little tweaking, almost any C that can compile to real mode (e.g. Borland C) should be able to handle it. The model that I compiled for is the "Compact" one (>64K data, <64K code). It should not be very difficult to alter for Windows 32-bit cli use making use of WNASPI32--I just haven't had a need for it. Linux sg might also be an option--SCSI CDBs don't change. --Chuck --Chuck From scaron at umich.edu Sun Aug 9 17:21:47 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 18:21:47 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: <55C7CEEC.6070001@dunnington.plus.com> References: <55C78688.8030901@comcast.net> <55C7CEEC.6070001@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: I did not know that. It must have been a fairly rare thing? I don't think I've ever seen one photographed. Best, Sean On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 09/08/2015 18:14, Sean Caron wrote: > >> DEC did sell a version of the BA23 that was intended to be used just as an >> expansion peripherals cabinet. You shouldn't have any problems putting HH >> devices in BA23 bays (so long as you have the appropriate interfaces to >> drive them) but you may need i.e. 3.5" to 5.25" bracket to attach to the >> BA23 sleds, and you'll have (cosmetic) blank space on top after putting a >> HH device in a FH bay. I imagine you'd have to make a special bracket to >> mount a TZ30/RX33 over-under in one of the 5.25" bays in the BA23 but it >> could certainly be done ... No such factory configuration exists AFAIK >> > > If a TZ30 has the same mounting holes as a 5.25" disk drive, it's doable. > There's an official DEC mounting kit to mount 2 x RX33 where you'd normally > find an RX50 in a BA23/BA123. It's basically two side plates, to hold the > upper and lower drives together. > > -- > Pete > > Pete Turnbull > From scaron at umich.edu Sun Aug 9 17:23:52 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 18:23:52 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <55C7C38B.1060602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20150809152517.01BE318C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55C7C38B.1060602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Yeah, Plan 9 is lean but not that lean! I wanted to mention it maybe more an aside, as a modern operating system that has a little bit more of the fluidity of old UNIX .. there's not a lot of "nonsense" to cut through before you can write useful programs. Best, Sean On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 5:18 PM, ben wrote: > On 8/9/2015 11:22 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> Have you tried Plan 9? It's like a breath of fresh air ... :O >> >> Best, >> >> Sean >> > > But alas almost all the classic machines endup being a IBM 360 or > a PDP-10. I don't think plan 9 was written for them. > Ben. > PS: checks Google to see how much memory PL/I had to compile in ... 44Kb > version 1. > > From scaron at umich.edu Sun Aug 9 17:58:23 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 18:58:23 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: References: <55C78688.8030901@comcast.net> <55C7CEEC.6070001@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: He's got a lot of interesting stuff for sale ... anyone looking for a Silent 700? On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 6:49 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > If it was a salvageable set of RX02s, it would have been nice to have! > Too bad he pulled the listing. > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 5:06 PM, Pete Turnbull > wrote: > > On 09/08/2015 18:14, Sean Caron wrote: > >> > >> DEC did sell a version of the BA23 that was intended to be used just as > an > >> expansion peripherals cabinet. You shouldn't have any problems putting > HH > >> devices in BA23 bays (so long as you have the appropriate interfaces to > >> drive them) but you may need i.e. 3.5" to 5.25" bracket to attach to the > >> BA23 sleds, and you'll have (cosmetic) blank space on top after putting > a > >> HH device in a FH bay. I imagine you'd have to make a special bracket to > >> mount a TZ30/RX33 over-under in one of the 5.25" bays in the BA23 but it > >> could certainly be done ... No such factory configuration exists AFAIK > > > > > > If a TZ30 has the same mounting holes as a 5.25" disk drive, it's doable. > > There's an official DEC mounting kit to mount 2 x RX33 where you'd > normally > > find an RX50 in a BA23/BA123. It's basically two side plates, to hold > the > > upper and lower drives together. > > > > -- > > Pete > > > > Pete Turnbull > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > From scaron at umich.edu Sun Aug 9 17:58:43 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 18:58:43 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: References: <55C78688.8030901@comcast.net> <55C7CEEC.6070001@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Grumble ... Google mail ... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Texas-Instruments-Silent-700-Data-Terminal-T367-/181827278594?hash=item2a55c01702 Best, Sean On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 6:58 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > He's got a lot of interesting stuff for sale ... anyone looking for a > Silent 700? > > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 6:49 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > >> If it was a salvageable set of RX02s, it would have been nice to have! >> Too bad he pulled the listing. >> >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 5:06 PM, Pete Turnbull >> wrote: >> > On 09/08/2015 18:14, Sean Caron wrote: >> >> >> >> DEC did sell a version of the BA23 that was intended to be used just >> as an >> >> expansion peripherals cabinet. You shouldn't have any problems putting >> HH >> >> devices in BA23 bays (so long as you have the appropriate interfaces to >> >> drive them) but you may need i.e. 3.5" to 5.25" bracket to attach to >> the >> >> BA23 sleds, and you'll have (cosmetic) blank space on top after >> putting a >> >> HH device in a FH bay. I imagine you'd have to make a special bracket >> to >> >> mount a TZ30/RX33 over-under in one of the 5.25" bays in the BA23 but >> it >> >> could certainly be done ... No such factory configuration exists AFAIK >> > >> > >> > If a TZ30 has the same mounting holes as a 5.25" disk drive, it's >> doable. >> > There's an official DEC mounting kit to mount 2 x RX33 where you'd >> normally >> > find an RX50 in a BA23/BA123. It's basically two side plates, to hold >> the >> > upper and lower drives together. >> > >> > -- >> > Pete >> > >> > Pete Turnbull >> >> >> >> -- >> Ben Sinclair >> ben at bensinclair.com >> > > From scaron at umich.edu Sun Aug 9 18:08:30 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 19:08:30 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: References: <55C78688.8030901@comcast.net> <55C7CEEC.6070001@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Some big Fujitsu SPARC machines, too, if anyone's into those ... some old-ish looking HP boards of unclear provenance (probably came out of test equipment) ... Nice Ungar soldering station in good shape ... very cheap Cisco Sup720s ... a Shugart 801 ... interesting assortment of stuff ... prices are kind of here and there ... I looked at the dual DEC floppy and I'm not seeing how it would fit in a BA23; the BA23 uses a little plastic sled attaching to the bottom of whatever goes in the 5.25" bay; it latches onto a catch at the bottom of the bay; this seems to mount to something with a sort of rail and retaining thumbscrew arrangement? Best, Sean On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 6:58 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Grumble ... Google mail ... > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Texas-Instruments-Silent-700-Data-Terminal-T367-/181827278594?hash=item2a55c01702 > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 6:58 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> He's got a lot of interesting stuff for sale ... anyone looking for a >> Silent 700? >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 6:49 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: >> >>> If it was a salvageable set of RX02s, it would have been nice to have! >>> Too bad he pulled the listing. >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 5:06 PM, Pete Turnbull >>> wrote: >>> > On 09/08/2015 18:14, Sean Caron wrote: >>> >> >>> >> DEC did sell a version of the BA23 that was intended to be used just >>> as an >>> >> expansion peripherals cabinet. You shouldn't have any problems >>> putting HH >>> >> devices in BA23 bays (so long as you have the appropriate interfaces >>> to >>> >> drive them) but you may need i.e. 3.5" to 5.25" bracket to attach to >>> the >>> >> BA23 sleds, and you'll have (cosmetic) blank space on top after >>> putting a >>> >> HH device in a FH bay. I imagine you'd have to make a special bracket >>> to >>> >> mount a TZ30/RX33 over-under in one of the 5.25" bays in the BA23 but >>> it >>> >> could certainly be done ... No such factory configuration exists AFAIK >>> > >>> > >>> > If a TZ30 has the same mounting holes as a 5.25" disk drive, it's >>> doable. >>> > There's an official DEC mounting kit to mount 2 x RX33 where you'd >>> normally >>> > find an RX50 in a BA23/BA123. It's basically two side plates, to hold >>> the >>> > upper and lower drives together. >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Pete >>> > >>> > Pete Turnbull >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ben Sinclair >>> ben at bensinclair.com >>> >> >> > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Aug 10 03:39:22 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 10:39:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a Linux utility to translate SIMH .tap to raw binary, if that's > interesting to anyone. I would have thought that such utilities existed > already. They probably do, but I have written my own set of tools for reading and writing TAP and AWS files, as probably most who do tape archiving. Christian From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Aug 10 03:37:35 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 09:37:35 +0100 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: References: <55C78688.8030901@comcast.net> <55C7CEEC.6070001@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <55C862CF.2020805@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/08/2015 23:21, Sean Caron wrote: > I did not know that. It must have been a fairly rare thing? I don't think > I've ever seen one photographed. I didn't think it was /that/ rare. I believe should have one here somewhere, so if I can find one I'll photograph it. > On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Pete Turnbull > wrote: > >> On 09/08/2015 18:14, Sean Caron wrote: >> >>> DEC did sell a version of the BA23 that was intended to be used just as an >>> expansion peripherals cabinet. You shouldn't have any problems putting HH >>> devices in BA23 bays (so long as you have the appropriate interfaces to >>> drive them) but you may need i.e. 3.5" to 5.25" bracket to attach to the >>> BA23 sleds, and you'll have (cosmetic) blank space on top after putting a >>> HH device in a FH bay. I imagine you'd have to make a special bracket to >>> mount a TZ30/RX33 over-under in one of the 5.25" bays in the BA23 but it >>> could certainly be done ... No such factory configuration exists AFAIK >>> >> >> If a TZ30 has the same mounting holes as a 5.25" disk drive, it's doable. >> There's an official DEC mounting kit to mount 2 x RX33 where you'd normally >> find an RX50 in a BA23/BA123. It's basically two side plates, to hold the >> upper and lower drives together. >> >> -- >> Pete >> >> Pete Turnbull >> -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 09:07:15 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 09:07:15 -0500 Subject: Apollo DN series HP root account In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20150809173229.01cf8d38@gmail.com> References: <6.2.5.6.1.20150809173229.01cf8d38@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55C8B013.5090004@gmail.com> On 08/09/2015 07:39 PM, Bill Newman wrote: > I have a vintage apollo question... > > In the late 1980's when HP acquired Apollo Computer Inc, I recall there was > an HP root account, that shipped with every new machine. In many cases > this account was not removed. > > I recently acquired a DN3000 and to my amazement it was clean, and booted > to an SR10.4 login prompt. Does anybody remember that HP account and > password? Alternative cracks would be welcomed as well. Bill, First try user/, user/apollo and root/apollo ... failing that there's some info here about clearing the registry: http://web.mit.edu/kolya/www/csa-faq.html#4.24 I used to know quite a bit about these machines, but apparently it's all fallen out of my brain now :/ cheers Jules From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Aug 10 09:28:49 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 10:28:49 -0400 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: References: <20150809184612.8E99318C109@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7AD1CA59-3D26-4DEB-B157-63D18EF2744B@comcast.net> <19E637E1-EB64-4E95-A402-83357CBFEB82@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Aug 9, 2015, at 10:01 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> Right. And further tweaked by myself, also at DEC (for RSTS/E), though I don?t believe that version was sent back to DECUS. > > Neat! I'm a big fan of RSTS/E, are you able to make your tweaked > version available? I?m trying to get that done. paul From shawn-gordon at cox.net Mon Aug 10 09:48:10 2015 From: shawn-gordon at cox.net (Shawn Gordon) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 07:48:10 -0700 Subject: FOR SALE: HP 700/92 green screen monitor Message-ID: <55C8B9AA.10908@cox.net> Excellent condition, $100 plus shipping or best offer. From cube1 at charter.net Mon Aug 10 10:38:03 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 10:38:03 -0500 Subject: Apollo DN series HP root account In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20150809173229.01cf8d38@gmail.com> References: <6.2.5.6.1.20150809173229.01cf8d38@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55C8C55B.1030302@charter.net> Hmmm. Not that I recall. Seems to me that one could boot with the boot switch in service mode (so it doesn't boot right through to DOMAIN/OS, though, and you could get a shell, allowing one to use a command-line editor to edit out the offending password. If you are still stuck in a couple of days, I can fire up my SR10.2 DN3000 and see what I can see. JRJ On 8/9/2015 7:39 PM, Bill Newman wrote: > I have a vintage apollo question... > > In the late 1980's when HP acquired Apollo Computer Inc, I recall there > was an HP root account, that shipped with every new machine. In many > cases this account was not removed. > > I recently acquired a DN3000 and to my amazement it was clean, and > booted to an SR10.4 login prompt. Does anybody remember that HP account > and password? Alternative cracks would be welcomed as well. > > Bill Newman > > From cube1 at charter.net Mon Aug 10 10:39:53 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 10:39:53 -0500 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C7F70B.8000009@sydex.com> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> <55C783F7.2050108@sydex.com> <55C78F8D.8090401@sydex.com> <55C791C0.80205@charter.net> <55C79837.8050601@sydex.com> <55C7CE34.6010601@charter.net> <55C7F70B.8000009@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C8C5C9.5090209@charter.net> On 8/9/2015 7:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/09/2015 03:03 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > I'd pretty much left the 360 world after DOS/360 (that really dates me), > so I couldn't comment--except that I never trusted an operator to mount > tapes, if I could do anything about it. A lot of the tapes came from > customers who supplied them to demonstrate a problem. Losing one meant > a lot of apologies and begging. > Isn't that what removed write rings were for? ;) > Much of my big-iron days were spent in operating system work, so I > needed the machine all to myself in any case---you know, > middle-of-the-night block time, after the CEs were through. Build a > tape, deadstart it, watch the machine crash, get a dump, punch some > cards, lather, rinse, repeat. Come home to grab a shower and dinner and > be back in time for the 9AM status meeting. Been there, done that, though not with OS/360 - but with VMS. > > Those years have affected my sleep habits all the way to my "golden > years". They didn't do much for my social life either. > > --Chuck Chuckle. JRJ From pete at pski.net Mon Aug 10 10:50:36 2015 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 11:50:36 -0400 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C7F70B.8000009@sydex.com> References: <55C6A58C.5090700@sydex.com> <55C6C5AC.6060409@charter.net> <55C6D42A.2000907@sydex.com> <55C76CDB.7000403@bitsavers.org> <55C783F7.2050108@sydex.com> <55C78F8D.8090401@sydex.com> <55C791C0.80205@charter.net> <55C79837.8050601@sydex.com> <55C7CE34.6010601@charter.net> <55C7F70B.8000009@sydex.com> Message-ID: Reminds me of James Ellwood from one of my favorite TZ episode ?From Agnes, With Love? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Agnes?With_Love > On Aug 9, 2015, at 8:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > They didn't do much for my social life either. > > --Chuck > > > From cube1 at charter.net Mon Aug 10 10:55:41 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 10:55:41 -0500 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <0D6E04A56C854339BD64B24901BD7F6B@workshop> References: <0D6E04A56C854339BD64B24901BD7F6B@workshop> Message-ID: <55C8C97D.8090807@charter.net> The link below is to a Google Drive folder with three files that I will leave up for a while: awstape.c - Read a SCSI tape, output in AWS format (Linux) awstoraw.c - Read an AWS file, output a raw byte stream awstosimh.c - Read an AWS file, output a SimH https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRfi1TWnlKU1hqUXphWVhpZ1FKOGFoVjRPVnppX1F2aUMwTUw0QkxSNEsyMjg&usp=sharing They are anything but elegant, but have gotten the job done for me. JRU On 8/9/2015 11:57 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > Hey, I'll take the offer, I am interested in both. > Marc > >> Jay Jaeger wrote: >> If anyone is interested, I have code for a Linux SCSI tape to >> AWSTAPE program, and a program that translates aws format to a raw >> byte stream. Not sure if I have one that translates to the SimH .tap >> format, though. GNU C. > >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I've got a Linux utility to translate SIMH .tap to raw binary, if that's >> interesting to anyone. I would have thought that such utilities existed >> already. > > > From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Mon Aug 10 10:58:48 2015 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 08:58:48 -0700 Subject: Adding a Hard Drive to an Original IBM PC Using a Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <5E5F7A29-3A41-417B-9FDB-00C2237FCE63@fozztexx.com> One of my favorite old computers to tinker with is a rev B IBM PC. I recently moved it out into my living room to hopefully inspire me to mess with it more, but I still didn?t want to mess with having to put everything on 360k floppies. With all the slots occupied I had to find another solution for mass storage. Raspberry Pi to the rescue! I was able to use XTIDE and a Pi to emulate a hard drive over the RS232 port. All the details are here on my blog post: http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/244 -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 10 11:43:02 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 09:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adding a Hard Drive to an Original IBM PC Using a Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <5E5F7A29-3A41-417B-9FDB-00C2237FCE63@fozztexx.com> References: <5E5F7A29-3A41-417B-9FDB-00C2237FCE63@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Aug 2015, Chris Osborn wrote: > One of my favorite old computers to tinker with is a rev B IBM PC. I > recently moved it out into my living room to hopefully inspire me to > mess with it more, but I still didn?t want to mess with having to put > everything on 360k floppies. With all the slots occupied I had to find > another solution for mass storage. Raspberry Pi to the rescue! I was > able to use XTIDE and a Pi to emulate a hard drive over the RS232 port. > All the details are here on my blog post: > http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/244 Nice job. But, why give up an entire ISA slot just to hold a DB25 and a DA15 connector? You coulda made up a Compact Flash or SD card pseudo hard-drive that ALSO has a DE9 and DA15 connector on its bracket. BTW, the original 5150 also had an empty ROM socket. From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Mon Aug 10 11:58:11 2015 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 09:58:11 -0700 Subject: Adding a Hard Drive to an Original IBM PC Using a Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <5E5F7A29-3A41-417B-9FDB-00C2237FCE63@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: <32D81A6F-FBC3-4C0E-963A-68EED6EA93A6@fozztexx.com> On Aug 10, 2015, at 9:43 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > But, why give up an entire ISA slot just to hold a DB25 and a DA15 connector? You coulda made up a Compact Flash or SD card pseudo hard-drive that ALSO has a DE9 and DA15 connector on its bracket. I have plans to make a bracketless XTIDE card that has a 2mm notebook drive header on it so I can use an SD card to notebook adapter I have. It?ll fit in the unused slot and let the AST SixPakPlus continue to hang the parallel and game port off the bracket in the back. Of course laying out a PCB to do that is a lot more work than just using a serial connection and I don?t know when I?ll find time to get the card designed. :-) -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Mon Aug 10 14:55:13 2015 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 14:55:13 -0500 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> References: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20150810195512.GA26463@RawFedDogs.net> Guy, On Tue, Aug 04, 2015 at 11:20:42PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system booting up > to z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU. Sadly I'll have to wait until I get home to watch it. YouTube is blocked where I work. I suspect I'll be experiencing extreme envy as I watch it. The closest I have is Hercules running the OSes freely available to hobbyists. Just one thing - one doesn't boot z/OS, one IPL's z/OS. :-) -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From scaron at umich.edu Mon Aug 10 09:22:34 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 10:22:34 -0400 Subject: Apollo DN series HP root account In-Reply-To: <55C8B013.5090004@gmail.com> References: <6.2.5.6.1.20150809173229.01cf8d38@gmail.com> <55C8B013.5090004@gmail.com> Message-ID: I did a little Googling and some site suggested password "-apollo-" but unfortunately I don't have one and have never really worked with them so I can't back that up from personal experience. Best, Sean On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 08/09/2015 07:39 PM, Bill Newman wrote: > >> I have a vintage apollo question... >> >> In the late 1980's when HP acquired Apollo Computer Inc, I recall there >> was >> an HP root account, that shipped with every new machine. In many cases >> this account was not removed. >> >> I recently acquired a DN3000 and to my amazement it was clean, and booted >> to an SR10.4 login prompt. Does anybody remember that HP account and >> password? Alternative cracks would be welcomed as well. >> > > Bill, > > First try user/, user/apollo and root/apollo ... failing that > there's some info here about clearing the registry: > > http://web.mit.edu/kolya/www/csa-faq.html#4.24 > > I used to know quite a bit about these machines, but apparently it's all > fallen out of my brain now :/ > > cheers > > Jules > > From lyndon at orthanc.ca Mon Aug 10 15:24:41 2015 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 13:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MTS Message-ID: There have been a few references to MTS over the past couple of months that led me to suspect people are running it under Hercules. I did some poking around a while back and managed to find some tape images (bitsaver, I think), and did some cursory reading of the release notes. I think there might be enough there to IPL and perform a basic installation, but what immediately caught my attention was the mention that sites had to purchase ASMH from IBM, which leads me to believe the public distributions don't contain an assembler. I cut my teeth on *real* computers on the U of Alberta's Amdahl running MTS, and I can't possibly imagine using it without an assembler. So my first question is: is anyone running MTS under Hercules from these public images? And if yes, question 2 is: which languages are included? One of the main reasons I would like to get MTS running would be to play around with the scheduler code. I remember some changes that were introduced circa 1981 that - I thought - destroyed the interactive response time of the system. E.g. APL went from being a joy to practically un-usable, IMO. I've always wanted to poke around in there and see if I couldn't fix it. And to get thoroughly esoteric and obscure, what are the odds that someone out there squirreled away an archive of SHOW:? from UQV-MTS? --lyndon From drb at msu.edu Mon Aug 10 15:35:42 2015 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 16:35:42 -0400 Subject: MTS In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 10 Aug 2015 13:24:41 -0700.) References: Message-ID: <20150810203542.4BF8CA5860F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> The UMich guys have made available images of tapes from many MTS releases. Not all releases are complete. They've also provided a built system of D6.0 (1986? -87?) with all the further changes it was running just before shutdown in the 90s. (No tape images for this version yet.) You may want to look at: http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/ ASMH is a licensed program product, so they can't make it available. MTS used a fairly heavily modified version of it. A lot of other languages are included, though. There's a list on the above web site somewhere of the license status of many things. Source is included in the tapes. If the SHOW bits to which you refer were shared amongst the consortium, and predate the release of D6.0, they're quite likely in there somewhere. IIRC the copy of the MTS manuals on bitsavers were actually freshly generated in the last few years, so the thing might be referenced there. De From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 15:39:10 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 15:39:10 -0500 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <20150810195512.GA26463@RawFedDogs.net> References: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> <20150810195512.GA26463@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > Guy, > > On Tue, Aug 04, 2015 at 11:20:42PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system booting up >> to z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU. > > Sadly I'll have to wait until I get home to watch it. YouTube is blocked > where I work. I suspect I'll be experiencing extreme envy as I watch it. > The closest I have is Hercules running the OSes freely available to > hobbyists. Just one thing - one doesn't boot z/OS, one IPL's z/OS. :-) He corrects that in the video itself :) -- Eric Christopherson From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 15:41:46 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 13:41:46 -0700 Subject: Friendly reminder to any 5620 / BLIT owners... Message-ID: The battery in the teletype DMD 5620 is mounted in a very fatal position, and does indeed leak, as I learned this weekend. If you have not removed it, I would get on that now. In fact, if you still have batteries in anything, you might be doing it wrong... ;) Cheers, - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From jws at jwsss.com Mon Aug 10 15:43:44 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 13:43:44 -0700 Subject: MTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C90D00.5030208@jwsss.com> On 8/10/2015 1:24 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > There have been a few references to MTS over the past couple of months > that led me to suspect people are running it under Hercules. I did > some poking around a while back and managed to find some tape images > (bitsaver, I think), and did some cursory reading of the release notes. > > I think there might be enough there to IPL and perform a basic > installation, but what immediately caught my attention was the mention > that sites had to purchase ASMH from IBM, which leads me to believe > the public distributions don't contain an assembler. > > I cut my teeth on *real* computers on the U of Alberta's Amdahl > running MTS, and I can't possibly imagine using it without an > assembler. So my first question is: is anyone running MTS under > Hercules from these public images? And if yes, question 2 is: which > languages are included? > > One of the main reasons I would like to get MTS running would be to > play around with the scheduler code. I remember some changes that > were introduced circa 1981 that - I thought - destroyed the > interactive response time of the system. E.g. APL went from being a > joy to practically un-usable, IMO. I've always wanted to poke around > in there and see if I couldn't fix it. > > And to get thoroughly esoteric and obscure, what are the odds that > someone out there squirreled away an archive of SHOW:? from UQV-MTS? > > --lyndon > > Lyndon, there is a Yahoo group, H390-MTS at yahoogroups.com which I archive and is active which deals with MTS, assuming that it is the same mainframe system. I didn't see that you had posted to any of the yahoogroups Hercules groups, and you may be lurking, but wanted to mention them. I can post all of the hercules groups or send them offline if you need. thanks Jim From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Aug 10 16:03:17 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 21:03:17 +0000 Subject: Classic programming In-Reply-To: <20150809152517.01BE318C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150809152517.01BE318C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBB06C7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 8:25 AM > As to who actually did do EMACS, it was a cast of characters, and I wasn't > enough part of it to know who should be listed. RMS was, of course, primus > inter pares, but there were others. E.g. I remember Gene Cicarelli did > some stuff. As I understand the history, RMS created ^R mode in TECO ("real-time editing", for the uninitiated), and lots of people began creating TECO init files that defined various key bindings for favored commands. RMS then collected everyone's init files, put the ones with consensus into a default configuration, and published the result as EMACS. The things that didn't make it into the default key bindings went into libraries. > There was this thing called IVORY which IIRC 'purified' TECO code so that it > could be dumped out in a compressed form (for faster loading, execution, etc > - it may have also been possible to have it read-only, and the page(s) shared > between multiple EMACS instances, but my memory is foggy on this), and Gene > did that. IVORY was an alternative to PURIFY. PURIFY stripped out comments and white space; IVORY stripped comments, but left white space alone. It could also combine PURIFYed and IVORYed compressed output into a library. (I used to have my own version of EMACS, with different key bindings for the kinds of things I needed to do often and functions from some of the other libraries built into the main library instead. That got lost when I parted ways with XKL; I still miss it, years later.) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wilson at dbit.com Mon Aug 10 16:04:33 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 17:04:33 -0400 Subject: MTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150810210433.GA18852@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 01:24:41PM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: >I think there might be enough there to IPL and perform a basic installation, >but what immediately caught my attention was the mention that sites had to >purchase ASMH from IBM, which leads me to believe the public distributions >don't contain an assembler. I assume you're saying that the real MTS sites bought *ASMH back in the old days, not that it's possible for mere mortals to buy a license for home emulator use nowadays at a finite price? I'd love to be wrong (and I'd gladly pay four digits, as long as it's one-time and not per-year). It'd be hard to get very far w/o *ASMH (it's horrible but it's the standard, and MTS had plenty of languages I miss less), and writing a clean/legal reimplementaation now would only take, say, 5000 person-years. John Wilson USERHA8G at RPITSMTS.Bitnet From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 16:13:07 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 22:13:07 +0100 Subject: MTS In-Reply-To: <20150810210433.GA18852@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20150810210433.GA18852@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <068601d0d3b1$5baab290$130017b0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John > Wilson > Sent: 10 August 2015 22:05 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: MTS > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 01:24:41PM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > >I think there might be enough there to IPL and perform a basic > >installation, but what immediately caught my attention was the mention > >that sites had to purchase ASMH from IBM, which leads me to believe the > >public distributions don't contain an assembler. > > I assume you're saying that the real MTS sites bought *ASMH back in the old > days, not that it's possible for mere mortals to buy a license for home > emulator use nowadays at a finite price? That is correct, they bought Assembler H. There are Assembler H compatible alternatives such as:- http://tachyonsoft.com/ and even http://z390.org/ but neither of these have the MTS extensions, and the MTS folks say these are needed to re-configure MTS > > I'd love to be wrong (and I'd gladly pay four digits, as long as it's one-time and > not per-year). It'd be hard to get very far w/o *ASMH (it's horrible but it's > the standard, and MTS had plenty of languages I miss less), and writing a > clean/legal reimplementaation now would only take, say, 5000 person-years. > As I say there are at least two clean replacements, but they don't have the MTS extras. However as Hercules allows you to change the config then the major need for MTS Assembler H has gone away. Some folks have also worked out how to patch some of the MTS tables to change the I/o so again reducing the need. All this has meen discussed in the H390-MTS group so its worth joining and reading the info there.. > John Wilson > USERHA8G at RPITSMTS.Bitnet Dave Wade G4UGM (once upon a time PM27 on the Newcastle Upon Tyne MTS system) From lyndon at orthanc.ca Mon Aug 10 16:13:56 2015 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 14:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MTS In-Reply-To: <20150810203542.4BF8CA5860F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20150810203542.4BF8CA5860F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: > You may want to look at: > > http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/ By sheer coincidence, I happened across that site this morning. Very useful! > Source is included in the tapes. If the SHOW bits to which you refer > were shared amongst the consortium, and predate the release of D6.0, > they're quite likely in there somewhere. SHOW was Keith Fenske's personal account at the UofA. It hosted the most astounding collection of games and other nifty bric-a-brac. His version of Space War (for the 3270) probably sucked down more student CPU soft dollars than all their combined course work did!) --lyndon From lyndon at orthanc.ca Mon Aug 10 16:16:07 2015 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 14:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MTS In-Reply-To: <55C90D00.5030208@jwsss.com> References: <55C90D00.5030208@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > I didn't see that you had posted to any of the yahoogroups Hercules groups, > and you may be lurking, but wanted to mention them. I can post all of the > hercules groups or send them offline if you need. I'm aware of them, and have scanned a couple of the groups (how I found pointers to the VM six-pack). But the Yahoo Groups interface is so repulsive as to be unusable (by me, anyway). --lyndon From mazzinia at tin.it Mon Aug 10 16:17:35 2015 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 23:17:35 +0200 Subject: R: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <20150810195512.GA26463@RawFedDogs.net> References: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> <20150810195512.GA26463@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <009501d0d3b1$fd6ebef0$f84c3cd0$@tin.it> Well, there's a z/os image for hercules, floating around.... -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin Monceaux Inviato: luned? 10 agosto 2015 21:55 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System Guy, On Tue, Aug 04, 2015 at 11:20:42PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system booting > up to z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU. Sadly I'll have to wait until I get home to watch it. YouTube is blocked where I work. I suspect I'll be experiencing extreme envy as I watch it. The closest I have is Hercules running the OSes freely available to hobbyists. Just one thing - one doesn't boot z/OS, one IPL's z/OS. :-) -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 16:26:20 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 22:26:20 +0100 Subject: MTS In-Reply-To: References: <55C90D00.5030208@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <06b301d0d3b3$345cd450$9d167cf0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lyndon > Nerenberg > Sent: 10 August 2015 22:16 > To: jwsmail at jwsss.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: MTS > > > I didn't see that you had posted to any of the yahoogroups Hercules > > groups, and you may be lurking, but wanted to mention them. I can > > post all of the hercules groups or send them offline if you need. > > I'm aware of them, and have scanned a couple of the groups (how I found > pointers to the VM six-pack). > > But the Yahoo Groups interface is so repulsive as to be unusable (by me, > anyway). > > --lyndon Just sign up for e-mail. But if you want to use MTS the best way to get support from the MTS guys is via Yahoo... From wilson at dbit.com Mon Aug 10 16:43:04 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 17:43:04 -0400 Subject: MTS In-Reply-To: References: <20150810203542.4BF8CA5860F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20150810214304.GA21360@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 02:13:56PM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: >probably sucked down more student CPU soft dollars You mean "MT$". John From mta at umich.edu Mon Aug 10 17:01:26 2015 From: mta at umich.edu (Mike Alexander) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 18:01:26 -0400 Subject: MTS In-Reply-To: References: <20150810203542.4BF8CA5860F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: --On August 10, 2015 at 2:13:56 PM -0700 Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: >> Source is included in the tapes. If the SHOW bits to which you refer >> were shared amongst the consortium, and predate the release of D6.0, >> they're quite likely in there somewhere. > > SHOW was Keith Fenske's personal account at the UofA. It hosted the > most astounding collection of games and other nifty bric-a-brac. His > version of Space War (for the 3270) probably sucked down more student > CPU soft dollars than all their combined course work did!) > Unless someone at UQV archived those files, they are probably gone. I'm quite sure they aren't on any tapes from Michigan that were saved. Mike From jws at jwsss.com Mon Aug 10 17:43:12 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 15:43:12 -0700 Subject: MTS In-Reply-To: References: <55C90D00.5030208@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <55C92900.6040204@jwsss.com> On 8/10/2015 2:16 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: >> I didn't see that you had posted to any of the yahoogroups Hercules >> groups, and you may be lurking, but wanted to mention them. I can >> post all of the hercules groups or send them offline if you need. > > I'm aware of them, and have scanned a couple of the groups (how I > found pointers to the VM six-pack). > > But the Yahoo Groups interface is so repulsive as to be unusable (by > me, anyway). > > --lyndon > > They have the MTS system working, and you can peruse the group messages w/o joining via their web, just google h390-mts and go to that link. If you want anything in the file section, you will have to join, or feel free to message me and I'll retrieve it. Looks like manuals, and patches are available there, don't know if they are archived elsewhere. I've not searched to see who is hosting the system, you will have to read for yourself. If you can read the cctalk archive online, you can read the MTS group message archive online. I subscribe to many groups and archive them all via email and use that resource personally, but if you have not subscribed since the inception of the group, you will of course have missed a lot. Several of the authors of MTS are participating, and you are denying yourself a resource that is very valuable, but whatever. thanks Jim From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Aug 10 18:14:57 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 23:14:57 +0000 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C8C97D.8090807@charter.net> References: <0D6E04A56C854339BD64B24901BD7F6B@workshop> <55C8C97D.8090807@charter.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBB084D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jay Jaeger Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 8:56 AM > The link below is to a Google Drive folder with three files that I will > leave up for a while: > awstape.c - Read a SCSI tape, output in AWS format (Linux) > awstoraw.c - Read an AWS file, output a raw byte stream > awstosimh.c - Read an AWS file, output a SimH Thanks, Jay! I was dreading having to write these (in Macro-20) in the near future. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 10 18:21:07 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 16:21:07 -0700 Subject: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C6B489.5030106@sydex.com> References: <55C3AACF.9010700@charter.net> <55C3CB40.9050008@charter.net> <55C3F840.3080505@pico-systems.com> <55C3FD4E.1010708@sydex.com> <20150809005658.GC4645@lonesome.com> <55C6B489.5030106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55C931E3.4050908@sydex.com> Just a follow-up on the problem of a Supermicro P6DGE taking forever to boot up. I tried several versions of the BIOS with pretty much the same result. Since each reset the configuration (CMOS) memory, there was little issue of an overlooked setting contributing to the slow boot. I tested the "fast boot" in both enabled and disabled settings and found that the POST took almost exactly the same time--the only difference was that the memory check "odometer" didn't display in the "fast boot" setting. Could it be that the presence of ECC registered SDRAM requires that every memory location get written before boot-up can proceed? There's 2GB of the stuff, so that could be the difference. --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Mon Aug 10 19:41:28 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 19:41:28 -0500 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBB084D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <0D6E04A56C854339BD64B24901BD7F6B@workshop> <55C8C97D.8090807@charter.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBB084D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <55C944B8.3010202@charter.net> Glad to help. On 8/10/2015 6:14 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Jay Jaeger > Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 8:56 AM > >> The link below is to a Google Drive folder with three files that I will >> leave up for a while: > >> awstape.c - Read a SCSI tape, output in AWS format (Linux) >> awstoraw.c - Read an AWS file, output a raw byte stream >> awstosimh.c - Read an AWS file, output a SimH > > Thanks, Jay! I was dreading having to write these (in Macro-20) in the > near future. > > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 19:48:58 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 20:48:58 -0400 Subject: Friendly reminder to any 5620 / BLIT owners... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > The battery in the teletype DMD 5620 is mounted in a very fatal position, > and does indeed leak, as I learned this weekend. Ow! > If you have not removed it, I would get on that now. Thanks for the tip. I just checked the Blit I received this summer, and the battery is thankfully intact. Zero voltage, but no leaks (yet). > In fact, if you still have batteries in anything, you might be doing it > wrong... ;) I lost an A4000 because I _thought_ I pulled the battery, but I was wrong. :-( It might be fixable, and I will try, but I'm expecting to have to replace it. Now I just need to find out why this Blit doesn't display anything when I power it on. The motherboard seems typical of AT&T products - a massive grid of square-pad-vias and a number of proprietary/private-label ICs. The firmware is on 8 27128s. In case I might have bitrot in 30-year-old EPROMs, does anyone have backups of the firmware I can test/reburn with? The RAM is 1MB of soldered Hitachi 50256s. Probably OK but no easy way to test them. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 20:32:54 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 21:32:54 -0400 Subject: Friendly reminder to any 5620 / BLIT owners... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 8:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Ian Finder wrote: >> The battery in the teletype DMD 5620 is mounted in a very fatal position, >> and does indeed leak, as I learned this weekend. > > Now I just need to find out why this Blit doesn't display anything > when I power it on... Ah ha! Pulling the dead battery has brought the Blit back to life. It passes self-tests and now is screaming "WAITING FOR KEYBOARD STATUS". Back to the search for a compatible keyboard. Two, really, since I also have a 730+ that needs one. -ethan From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 20:38:34 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 21:38:34 -0400 Subject: Friendly reminder to any 5620 / BLIT owners... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dang Ethan! What Ian said! Get 'em out rtfn! On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 8:48 PM, Ethan Dicks > wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Ian Finder > wrote: > >> The battery in the teletype DMD 5620 is mounted in a very fatal > position, > >> and does indeed leak, as I learned this weekend. > > > > Now I just need to find out why this Blit doesn't display anything > > when I power it on... > > Ah ha! Pulling the dead battery has brought the Blit back to life. > It passes self-tests and now is screaming "WAITING FOR KEYBOARD > STATUS". > > Back to the search for a compatible keyboard. Two, really, since I > also have a 730+ that needs one. > > -ethan > From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 23:28:50 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 21:28:50 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66A58C69EDCF45BE9DFC5069799FD418@workshop> Thanks Jay! Marc ---------------------------- From: Jay Jaeger The link below is to a Google Drive folder with three files that I will leave up for a while: awstape.c - Read a SCSI tape, output in AWS format (Linux) awstoraw.c - Read an AWS file, output a raw byte stream awstosimh.c - Read an AWS file, output a SimH https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRfi1TWnlKU1hqUXphWVhpZ1FK OGFoVjRPVnppX1F2aUMwTUw0QkxSNEsyMjg&usp=sharing They are anything but elegant, but have gotten the job done for me. JRU -------------------------- From scaron at umich.edu Mon Aug 10 15:49:47 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 16:49:47 -0400 Subject: MTS In-Reply-To: <20150810203542.4BF8CA5860F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20150810203542.4BF8CA5860F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: Dennis is correct, the MTS source and binary tapes were released to the public a few years back and the URL he quotes is the hub for everything MTS. If you want to spin up an instance yourself from scratch, I wrote a little tutorial some time ago that will distill down the installation documentation for you, and notes a few potential snags: http://wildflower.diablonet.net/~scaron/herculesmts.html It's actually pretty easy to install and run MTS from scratch, in rather stark contrast to many operating systems that ran on the 360/370 platform. There are a wide variety of assemblers and compilers included; here's an overview; just a few of them are broken (Pascal, C) but most run: http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/discussions/programming-languages-available-under-mts Have fun! MTS runs great on Hercules. I have an instance running pretty much continuously on one of my servers and I'm always on there playing around with old languages. Best, Sean On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > The UMich guys have made available images of tapes from many MTS > releases. Not all releases are complete. They've also provided a built > system of D6.0 (1986? -87?) with all the further changes it was running > just before shutdown in the 90s. (No tape images for this version yet.) > > You may want to look at: > > http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/ > > ASMH is a licensed program product, so they can't make it available. > MTS used a fairly heavily modified version of it. A lot of other > languages are included, though. There's a list on the above web site > somewhere of the license status of many things. > > Source is included in the tapes. If the SHOW bits to which you refer > were shared amongst the consortium, and predate the release of D6.0, > they're quite likely in there somewhere. IIRC the copy of the MTS > manuals on bitsavers were actually freshly generated in the last few > years, so the thing might be referenced there. > > De > From scaron at umich.edu Mon Aug 10 16:33:15 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 17:33:15 -0400 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <009501d0d3b1$fd6ebef0$f84c3cd0$@tin.it> References: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> <20150810195512.GA26463@RawFedDogs.net> <009501d0d3b1$fd6ebef0$f84c3cd0$@tin.it> Message-ID: Does it include ISPF? Using MVS is a bear without it... Best, Sean On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > Well, there's a z/os image for hercules, floating around.... > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin > Monceaux > Inviato: luned? 10 agosto 2015 21:55 > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Oggetto: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System > > Guy, > > On Tue, Aug 04, 2015 at 11:20:42PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system booting > > up to z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU. > > Sadly I'll have to wait until I get home to watch it. YouTube is blocked > where I work. I suspect I'll be experiencing extreme envy as I watch it. > The closest I have is Hercules running the OSes freely available to > hobbyists. Just one thing - one doesn't boot z/OS, one IPL's z/OS. :-) > > > > -- > > Kevin > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > http://www.Lassie.xyz > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > Bruceville, TX > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 19:41:12 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 20:41:12 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: We found a shorted diode in one of the rectifiers in the +/-42VDC supply in the VR14 that was causing the main fuse to blow. The donor of the PDP-12 gave us a spare so that was an easy fix. We reinstalled the VR14 in the PDP-12 and ran the display diags. The VR14 display actually works! We found a open trimpot for the gain on the vertical flip-chip. We swapped the horizontal and vertical flip-chips, adjusted the gain trimpot, removed the flip-chip, and added a fixed resistor with the same value for now. The display when running the diags looks very nice and crisp. We booted LAP6-DIAL and could display a listing of the files on the tape on the VR14 monitor. After about 20 minutes of running nicely, the TC12 went back into the mode where it could not find blocks. Oh well, more debugging to do. -- Michael Thompson From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 21:07:29 2015 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 10:07:29 +0800 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL Message-ID: One could always implement a KDF9 emulator and then port Randall and Russell code (from the book). And r.e. ALGOL68, Peter Hibbard had some sort of ALGOL68 system working on the PDP11s at CMU I believe. From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com Tue Aug 11 00:05:41 2015 From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 15:05:41 +1000 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 12:07 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > One could always implement a KDF9 emulator and then port Randall and > Russell code (from the book). Both of those requirements are already done: http://www.findlayw.plus.com/KDF9/emulation/emulator.html From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Aug 11 00:08:02 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 22:08:02 -0700 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> <20150810195512.GA26463@RawFedDogs.net> <009501d0d3b1$fd6ebef0$f84c3cd0$@tin.it> Message-ID: <55C98332.9050906@shiresoft.com> z/OS is a licensed product from IBM (read $$$'s involved). Generally you can't run anything newer than MVS 3.8j on Hercules. See the Hercules website (http://www.hercules-390.eu). It has links to other sites where you can get various OS's and other programs that can be legally run. Note that there is a "turnkey" system for MVS 3.8j that is set up for Hercules that has an ISPF-like clone. I have that set up to run on my Mac. I also have the VM/370 "sixpack" installed as well when I want to run VM/370. The version of z/OS installed on my MP3000 does have ISPF (along with lots of other program products) installed. TTFN - Guy On 8/10/15 2:33 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Does it include ISPF? Using MVS is a bear without it... > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > >> Well, there's a z/os image for hercules, floating around.... >> >> -----Messaggio originale----- >> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin >> Monceaux >> Inviato: luned? 10 agosto 2015 21:55 >> A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Oggetto: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System >> >> Guy, >> >> On Tue, Aug 04, 2015 at 11:20:42PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >>> I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system booting >>> up to z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU. >> Sadly I'll have to wait until I get home to watch it. YouTube is blocked >> where I work. I suspect I'll be experiencing extreme envy as I watch it. >> The closest I have is Hercules running the OSes freely available to >> hobbyists. Just one thing - one doesn't boot z/OS, one IPL's z/OS. :-) >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Kevin >> http://www.RawFedDogs.net >> http://www.Lassie.xyz >> http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org >> Bruceville, TX >> >> What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! >> Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. >> >> From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Aug 11 00:12:21 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 22:12:21 -0700 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C98435.40407@shiresoft.com> On 8/10/15 7:07 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > One could always implement a KDF9 emulator and then port Randall and > Russell code (from the book). > > And r.e. ALGOL68, Peter Hibbard had some sort of ALGOL68 system working on > the PDP11s at CMU I believe. It was a cross compiler. The compiler ran on TOP-10 and generated code that would run on C.MMP (a 16-way shared memory multiprocessor PDP-11) running Hydra (a very cool capabilities based OS). I still have my copy of the "Hydra Songbook" which is the manual that describes all of the K-calls (kernel calls) and the basic application environment. TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 11 00:16:16 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 22:16:16 -0700 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C98520.2010504@sydex.com> On 08/10/2015 07:07 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > One could always implement a KDF9 emulator and then port Randall and > Russell code (from the book). > > And r.e. ALGOL68, Peter Hibbard had some sort of ALGOL68 system > working on the PDP11s at CMU I believe. Why all this DEC stuff about Algol? Go to the source--the Burroughs B5500 (or if you want, the B5000). A piece of engineering much advanced for its time. Did DEC ever produce a machine that ate Algol as its native programming language? --Chuck From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Tue Aug 11 04:26:41 2015 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 19:26:41 +1000 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445C0D04-903B-4B6F-B299-8556FAE1B27E@retrocomputingtasmania.com> On 11 Aug 2015, at 3:05 pm, Nigel Williams wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 12:07 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: >> One could always implement a KDF9 emulator and then port Randall and >> Russell code (from the book). > > Both of those requirements are already done: > > http://www.findlayw.plus.com/KDF9/emulation/emulator.html BTW, there is a write-up of this ALGOL compiler by one of the authors here: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/res50.htm#e a sort of who?s who of early ALGOL implementations. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 11 06:21:58 2015 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:21:58 +0200 Subject: DEC RX02-PA? In-Reply-To: <55C7CEEC.6070001@dunnington.plus.com> References: <55C78688.8030901@comcast.net> <55C7CEEC.6070001@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <55C9DAD6.90204@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Am 10.08.15 um 00:06 schrieb Pete Turnbull: > There's an official DEC mounting kit to mount 2 x RX33 where you'd > normally find an RX50 in a BA23/BA123. It's basically two side plates, > to hold the upper and lower drives together. I basically did this to mount two EDSI half height disks in my BA23 that holds my 11/23. The lower drive attaches to the BA(1)23 drive sled by the bottom screws. The upper drive attaches to the lower drive by a plate on the left and right side each. The two plates are the front bezels from dead MFM disks. I just drilled holes for the side screws into them. -- tsch??, Jochen From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Aug 11 07:36:13 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 08:36:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Slow booting, was re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System Message-ID: <20150811123613.874D518C110@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > Could it be that the presence of ECC registered SDRAM requires that > every memory location get written before boot-up can proceed? There's > 2GB of the stuff, so that could be the difference. I was going to suggest that, actually. Turning on ECC in the memory in a somewhat older HP minitower machine caused a long delay in booting while it cleared all the memory. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Aug 11 07:40:03 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 08:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: And speaking of ALGOL Message-ID: <20150811124003.23C9218C110@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > Why all this DEC stuff about Algol? I probably started it; I just mentioned the PDP-11 one because a lot of people already have either 11's, or an emulator up and running. Noel From mazzinia at tin.it Tue Aug 11 07:44:48 2015 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:44:48 +0200 Subject: R: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C98332.9050906@shiresoft.com> References: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> <20150810195512.GA26463@RawFedDogs.net> <009501d0d3b1$fd6ebef0$f84c3cd0$@tin.it> <55C98332.9050906@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <004801d0d433$8254a3b0$86fdeb10$@tin.it> Well, that was an interesting video. How long did it take to get it fully loaded ? The "service" Celeron board, is it interfaced internally to the rest, or externally ? -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Guy Sotomayor Inviato: marted? 11 agosto 2015 07:08 A: General at main.local; Discussion at main.local:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System z/OS is a licensed product from IBM (read $$$'s involved). Generally you can't run anything newer than MVS 3.8j on Hercules. See the Hercules website (http://www.hercules-390.eu). It has links to other sites where you can get various OS's and other programs that can be legally run. Note that there is a "turnkey" system for MVS 3.8j that is set up for Hercules that has an ISPF-like clone. I have that set up to run on my Mac. I also have the VM/370 "sixpack" installed as well when I want to run VM/370. The version of z/OS installed on my MP3000 does have ISPF (along with lots of other program products) installed. TTFN - Guy On 8/10/15 2:33 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Does it include ISPF? Using MVS is a bear without it... > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > >> Well, there's a z/os image for hercules, floating around.... >> >> -----Messaggio originale----- >> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin >> Monceaux >> Inviato: luned? 10 agosto 2015 21:55 >> A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Oggetto: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System >> >> Guy, >> >> On Tue, Aug 04, 2015 at 11:20:42PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >>> I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system >>> booting up to z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU. >> Sadly I'll have to wait until I get home to watch it. YouTube is >> blocked where I work. I suspect I'll be experiencing extreme envy as I watch it. >> The closest I have is Hercules running the OSes freely available to >> hobbyists. Just one thing - one doesn't boot z/OS, one IPL's z/OS. >> :-) >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Kevin >> http://www.RawFedDogs.net >> http://www.Lassie.xyz >> http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org >> Bruceville, TX >> >> What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! >> Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. >> >> From scaron at umich.edu Tue Aug 11 08:38:24 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 09:38:24 -0400 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55C98332.9050906@shiresoft.com> References: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> <20150810195512.GA26463@RawFedDogs.net> <009501d0d3b1$fd6ebef0$f84c3cd0$@tin.it> <55C98332.9050906@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: I don't think you're allowed to run z/OS on Hercules even if you pay IBM, no? Or did they lift that restriction? The licensing on the image which Alessandro is referring to is undoubtedly questionable in the whole; I was just curious, since it sounds like he maybe had seen it before, if it was "complete" and had big layered products like ISPF included and working as well. Best, Sean On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 1:08 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > z/OS is a licensed product from IBM (read $$$'s involved). Generally you > can't run anything newer > than MVS 3.8j on Hercules. See the Hercules website ( > http://www.hercules-390.eu). It has links > to other sites where you can get various OS's and other programs that can > be legally run. > > Note that there is a "turnkey" system for MVS 3.8j that is set up for > Hercules that has an ISPF-like > clone. I have that set up to run on my Mac. I also have the VM/370 > "sixpack" installed as well > when I want to run VM/370. > > The version of z/OS installed on my MP3000 does have ISPF (along with lots > of other program > products) installed. > > TTFN - Guy > > > On 8/10/15 2:33 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> Does it include ISPF? Using MVS is a bear without it... >> >> Best, >> >> Sean >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Mazzini Alessandro >> wrote: >> >> Well, there's a z/os image for hercules, floating around.... >>> >>> -----Messaggio originale----- >>> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin >>> Monceaux >>> Inviato: luned? 10 agosto 2015 21:55 >>> A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Oggetto: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System >>> >>> Guy, >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 04, 2015 at 11:20:42PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> >>> I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system booting >>>> up to z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU. >>>> >>> Sadly I'll have to wait until I get home to watch it. YouTube is blocked >>> where I work. I suspect I'll be experiencing extreme envy as I watch it. >>> The closest I have is Hercules running the OSes freely available to >>> hobbyists. Just one thing - one doesn't boot z/OS, one IPL's z/OS. :-) >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Kevin >>> http://www.RawFedDogs.net >>> http://www.Lassie.xyz >>> http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org >>> Bruceville, TX >>> >>> What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! >>> Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. >>> >>> >>> > From other at oryx.us Tue Aug 11 09:36:36 2015 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 09:36:36 -0500 Subject: Still seeking 3B2 information In-Reply-To: <20150119194516.GA9021@loomcom.com> References: <20150119194516.GA9021@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <55CA0874.8080005@oryx.us> Hello Seth, We were having a 3B2 discussion on the Sun Rescue list, and that got me to thinking about your emulator project. Can you share a status update? Is there anything us non-developers can do to assist? Thank you, Jerry On 01/19/15 01:45 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I've made tremendous progress on my 3B2 emulator. It's being > implemented under the SIMH simulator platform, which has been a huge > help. > > My WE32100 core is getting closer to being complete. I'd consider it > alpha quality right now, but it has enough instruction coverage to > pass the 3B2's power-on self tests and to (barely) run some of the 3B2 > firmware mode tools. > > Implementing the WE32100 core has been thanks to the processor manual > and assembly language manuals that are available on BitSavers, but > outside of the CPU, virtually all of my understanding of the 3B2's > architecture has come from studying the ROMs and the SYSVR3 source > code. I've also been helped by having remote access to a running 3B2 > so I can assemble and disassemble code using the real AT&T tools. > Beyond that, I have found precious little documentation. > > I'm at the point now where I'm pretty well stuck until I can find more > information. I understand large chunks of the memory map now and > should be able to do things like simulate the floppy and hard disk > controller, but there are large gaps in my understanding. There are > many undocumented registers that are used by the firmware, but don't > appear in the SYSV source code anywhere. What they mean and what > they're for is anybody's guess. I've just stubbed them out for now. > > If anybody has access to schematics, architecture docs, or other > memory map information, I'd be eternally grateful if you could share > it! > > -Seth > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Aug 11 09:52:12 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 10:52:12 -0400 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: <55C98520.2010504@sydex.com> References: <55C98520.2010504@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1F00CDE4-235E-475C-80EF-157E3A278937@comcast.net> > On Aug 11, 2015, at 1:16 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 08/10/2015 07:07 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: >> One could always implement a KDF9 emulator and then port Randall and >> Russell code (from the book). >> >> And r.e. ALGOL68, Peter Hibbard had some sort of ALGOL68 system >> working on the PDP11s at CMU I believe. > > Why all this DEC stuff about Algol? Go to the source--the Burroughs B5500 (or if you want, the B5000). A piece of engineering much advanced for its time. Yes, that was a pretty nice system. Certainly not the first ALGOL system, but a decent one even though they did put a bunch of Fortran-like ugliness into the I/O. PDP11 DECUS ALGOL was clearly inspired by that, it?s a subset of Burroughs ALGOL and the generated code looks like a 16-bit variant of B5500 machine code. Note though that some of the discussion was about Algol 68, which is a rather different language. I don?t know that Burroughs ever did anything with it, but some other companies did (CDC for one). > > Did DEC ever produce a machine that ate Algol as its native programming language? ?native? in what sense? There are plenty of machines, from many companies, that support block structured languages well. The PDP11 and VAX are among those, as are the Burroughs mainframes, the Electrologica EL-X8, and many others. If so, they will do well at Algol, Pascal, C, Modula, Ada, and so on. Some other machines don?t make stack operations and recursive functions easy, and as such could be called ?Fortran machines? ? CDC 6000 series, IBM 360, and PDP-8 are examples. Still, with a bit of extra work those too can handle Algol and other block-structured languages. After all, the first Pascal was implemented on the CDC 6600 (by ETH Z?rich). And CDC shipped both Algol 60 and Algol 68 compilers. IBM had an Algol 60 for OS/360, as I recall, though I?ve never used it. If you mean ?native? in the sense of an instruction set tailored for running Algol programs, no ? in that sense, Burroughs was rather unusual, though you might point at the Electrologica EL-X8 as another example. paul From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 11 10:24:51 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 08:24:51 -0700 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: <1F00CDE4-235E-475C-80EF-157E3A278937@comcast.net> References: <55C98520.2010504@sydex.com> <1F00CDE4-235E-475C-80EF-157E3A278937@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55CA13C3.10604@sydex.com> On 08/11/2015 07:52 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Yes, that was a pretty nice system. Certainly not the first ALGOL > system, but a decent one even though they did put a bunch of > Fortran-like ugliness into the I/O. As I recall, the I/O in the Algol-60 report was not particularly well-defined. Pascal followed this pattern also. So Burroughs could hardly be blamed. > PDP11 DECUS ALGOL was clearly inspired by that, it?s a subset of > Burroughs ALGOL and the generated code looks like a 16-bit variant of > B5500 machine code. I hadn't realized that descriptors had been implemented on the PDP-11. > Note though that some of the discussion was about Algol 68, which is > a rather different language. I don?t know that Burroughs ever did > anything with it, but some other companies did (CDC for one). I don't know where Algol 68 in the CDC world came from; I am aware of no one in CPD Sunnyvale who worked on it. Was it a VIM contribution? > ?native? in what sense? There are plenty of machines, from many > companies, that support block structured languages well. The PDP11 > and VAX are among those, as are the Burroughs mainframes, the > Electrologica EL-X8, and many others. If so, they will do well at > Algol, Pascal, C, Modula, Ada, and so on. Well, CDC 6600 routinely beat out IBM's iron on COBOL, even without character addressability or the capability for decimal arithmetic. > If you mean ?native? in the sense of an instruction set tailored for > running Algol programs, no ? in that sense, Burroughs was rather > unusual, though you might point at the Electrologica EL-X8 as another > example. That's exactly what I mean. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Aug 11 10:37:19 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 11:37:19 -0400 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: <55CA13C3.10604@sydex.com> References: <55C98520.2010504@sydex.com> <1F00CDE4-235E-475C-80EF-157E3A278937@comcast.net> <55CA13C3.10604@sydex.com> Message-ID: <817E171E-C792-4A59-8152-D12D5BD970B4@comcast.net> > On Aug 11, 2015, at 11:24 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 08/11/2015 07:52 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Yes, that was a pretty nice system. Certainly not the first ALGOL >> system, but a decent one even though they did put a bunch of >> Fortran-like ugliness into the I/O. > > As I recall, the I/O in the Algol-60 report was not particularly well-defined. Pascal followed this pattern also. It was not defined at all. > > So Burroughs could hardly be blamed. I wouldn?t conclude that. The natural way to do I/O in Algol is exactly what it is in C: using a set of libraries. In fact, C is arguably no different than Algol in that I/O is not part of the base language. The difference is that in C there came to be a fairly consistent ?standard library?. The Dutch Algol implementations use that model, and there were several different compilers that used roughly the same set of functions. With that approach, all that is needed by way of extension to Algol is the addition of a ?string? type (for literal strings, not string variables, minimally). Burroughs however took a very different route, which is much more invasive into the underlying language, and feels a lot like a grafting of Fortran FORMAT statements onto Algol. > >> PDP11 DECUS ALGOL was clearly inspired by that, it?s a subset of >> Burroughs ALGOL and the generated code looks like a 16-bit variant of >> B5500 machine code. > > I hadn't realized that descriptors had been implemented on the PDP-11. Not in the PDP-11 machine architecture. DECUS Algol is a P-code implementation: the generated binary is pretty much Burroughs machine code apart from the word length, and the runtime library interprets that code. So you see descriptors there, and B5500 style stack operations, and all that, but it isn?t native PDP-11 machine code. > >> Note though that some of the discussion was about Algol 68, which is >> a rather different language. I don?t know that Burroughs ever did >> anything with it, but some other companies did (CDC for one). > > I don't know where Algol 68 in the CDC world came from; I am aware of no one in CPD Sunnyvale who worked on it. Was it a VIM contribution? No, it was a CDC product, but developed by CDC Holland (at their Rijswijk office). Apparently it was created at the insistence of a number of CDC?s academic customers in Europe. > >> ?native? in what sense? There are plenty of machines, from many >> companies, that support block structured languages well. The PDP11 >> and VAX are among those, as are the Burroughs mainframes, the >> Electrologica EL-X8, and many others. If so, they will do well at >> Algol, Pascal, C, Modula, Ada, and so on. > > Well, CDC 6600 routinely beat out IBM's iron on COBOL, even without character addressability or the capability for decimal arithmetic. Which makes sense; it demonstrates what nearly everyone now knows, which is that RISC architecture is a very good way to design a computer. > >> If you mean ?native? in the sense of an instruction set tailored for >> running Algol programs, no ? in that sense, Burroughs was rather >> unusual, though you might point at the Electrologica EL-X8 as another >> example. > > That's exactly what I mean. I suspect part of the reason is that Algol wasn?t all that popular in the USA even if its heyday. Add to that the fact that most computer designers weren?t all that skilled in software. And finally, as the RISC experience has shown, it isn?t really worth it ? a well designed RISC architecture supports any language well, with a simpler, faster, and more economical hardware architecture. paul From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Aug 11 10:50:50 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 08:50:50 -0700 Subject: R: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <004801d0d433$8254a3b0$86fdeb10$@tin.it> References: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> <20150810195512.GA26463@RawFedDogs.net> <009501d0d3b1$fd6ebef0$f84c3cd0$@tin.it> <55C98332.9050906@shiresoft.com> <004801d0d433$8254a3b0$86fdeb10$@tin.it> Message-ID: <55CA19DA.9080000@shiresoft.com> It takes 20-30 minutes from the time that I hit the power switch until there's a login screen on the 3179s (not including the time it takes to IML the 3174 controller). So you can see, I did a bit of editing to get a 9 minute video. ;-) The service board is located in the chassis. It plugs into the PCI backplane. However other z/Series machines have an "external" laptop (though from what I can tell, there's a drawer that the laptop sits in that you pull out when you need to do something with the service element. TTFN - Guy On 8/11/15 5:44 AM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > Well, that was an interesting video. How long did it take to get it fully loaded ? > The "service" Celeron board, is it interfaced internally to the rest, or externally ? > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Guy Sotomayor > Inviato: marted? 11 agosto 2015 07:08 > A: General at main.local; Discussion at main.local:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Oggetto: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System > > z/OS is a licensed product from IBM (read $$$'s involved). Generally you can't run anything newer than MVS 3.8j on Hercules. See the Hercules website (http://www.hercules-390.eu). It has links to other sites where you can get various OS's and other programs that can be legally run. > > Note that there is a "turnkey" system for MVS 3.8j that is set up for Hercules that has an ISPF-like clone. I have that set up to run on my Mac. I also have the VM/370 "sixpack" installed as well when I want to run VM/370. > > The version of z/OS installed on my MP3000 does have ISPF (along with lots of other program > products) installed. > > TTFN - Guy > > On 8/10/15 2:33 PM, Sean Caron wrote: >> Does it include ISPF? Using MVS is a bear without it... >> >> Best, >> >> Sean >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: >> >>> Well, there's a z/os image for hercules, floating around.... >>> >>> -----Messaggio originale----- >>> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin >>> Monceaux >>> Inviato: luned? 10 agosto 2015 21:55 >>> A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Oggetto: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System >>> >>> Guy, >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 04, 2015 at 11:20:42PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> >>>> I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system >>>> booting up to z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU. >>> Sadly I'll have to wait until I get home to watch it. YouTube is >>> blocked where I work. I suspect I'll be experiencing extreme envy as I watch it. >>> The closest I have is Hercules running the OSes freely available to >>> hobbyists. Just one thing - one doesn't boot z/OS, one IPL's z/OS. >>> :-) >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Kevin >>> http://www.RawFedDogs.net >>> http://www.Lassie.xyz >>> http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org >>> Bruceville, TX >>> >>> What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! >>> Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. >>> >>> From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 11 11:20:17 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 09:20:17 -0700 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: <817E171E-C792-4A59-8152-D12D5BD970B4@comcast.net> References: <55C98520.2010504@sydex.com> <1F00CDE4-235E-475C-80EF-157E3A278937@comcast.net> <55CA13C3.10604@sydex.com> <817E171E-C792-4A59-8152-D12D5BD970B4@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55CA20C1.10002@sydex.com> On 08/11/2015 08:37 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > No, it was a CDC product, but developed by CDC Holland (at their Rijswijk office). Apparently it was created at the insistence of a number of CDC?s academic customers in Europe. Which explains why I never saw it at CPD SVLOPS. CDC in those days was fond of "bootleg" products. MACE/KRONOS/NOS being the chiefest of them. At least one program that I wrote (in a week) was turned into an official product, complete with reference manual. It was never intended as anything more than a way fro me to get my own work done. "Ports" of it were downright silly. > Which makes sense; it demonstrates what nearly everyone now knows, > which is that RISC architecture is a very good way to design a > computer. What it told me was that byte.character addressability wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. Even after the CYBER 70 introduced the CMU (on the 72/73 only; not on the 74), use of it didn't contribute massively to the speed of COBOL. > I suspect part of the reason is that Algol wasn?t all that popular in > the USA even if its heyday. Add to that the fact that most computer > designers weren?t all that skilled in software. And finally, as the > RISC experience has shown, it isn?t really worth it. ...which is why we're all working in x86 today. :) What RISC does demand is a fast memory system. The 6600 had 1 usec memory interleaved 10 ways, so it could issue a read or write every machine cycle (100 nsec). Without that, the 6600 could well have been a real dog. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 11:23:58 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 17:23:58 +0100 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> <20150810195512.GA26463@RawFedDogs.net> <009501d0d3b1$fd6ebef0$f84c3cd0$@tin.it> <55C98332.9050906@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <0b0901d0d452$20f75030$62e5f090$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean > Caron > Sent: 11 August 2015 14:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; Sean Caron > Subject: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System > > I don't think you're allowed to run z/OS on Hercules even if you pay IBM, no? That depends on your zOS licence. Different countries have different laws. I believe that the current Z partner developer licences specifically restrict running zOS on anything other than the supplied emulator and IBM has taken steps to encrypt the disks to prevent you from even trying. On the other hand some of the older MVS licences allowed you to run on anything in a disaster recovery situation, including Disaster recovery testing. I believe these clauses have been modified in the current licence but I don't have a copy to look at... > Or did they lift that restriction? The licensing on the image which Alessandro > is referring to is undoubtedly questionable in the whole; I was just curious, > since it sounds like he maybe had seen it before, if it was "complete" and had > big layered products like ISPF included and working as well. It depends on how it was originally licenced. If it was on a Monthly Charge the licence on the MP3000 will have expired. If it was purchased then the original owners will have a licence and it may be possible to transfer it... > > Best, > > Sean > Dave G4UGM > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 1:08 AM, Guy Sotomayor > wrote: > > > z/OS is a licensed product from IBM (read $$$'s involved). Generally > > you can't run anything newer than MVS 3.8j on Hercules. See the > > Hercules website ( http://www.hercules-390.eu). It has links to other > > sites where you can get various OS's and other programs that can be > > legally run. > > > > Note that there is a "turnkey" system for MVS 3.8j that is set up for > > Hercules that has an ISPF-like clone. I have that set up to run on my > > Mac. I also have the VM/370 "sixpack" installed as well when I want > > to run VM/370. > > > > The version of z/OS installed on my MP3000 does have ISPF (along with > > lots of other program > > products) installed. > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > > > On 8/10/15 2:33 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > > > >> Does it include ISPF? Using MVS is a bear without it... > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Sean > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Mazzini Alessandro > >> wrote: > >> > >> Well, there's a z/os image for hercules, floating around.... > >>> > >>> -----Messaggio originale----- > >>> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin > >>> Monceaux > >>> Inviato: luned? 10 agosto 2015 21:55 > >>> A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >>> Oggetto: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System > >>> > >>> Guy, > >>> > >>> On Tue, Aug 04, 2015 at 11:20:42PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >>> > >>> I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system > >>> booting > >>>> up to z/OS. The video is here: http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU. > >>>> > >>> Sadly I'll have to wait until I get home to watch it. YouTube is > >>> blocked where I work. I suspect I'll be experiencing extreme envy as I > watch it. > >>> The closest I have is Hercules running the OSes freely available to > >>> hobbyists. Just one thing - one doesn't boot z/OS, one IPL's z/OS. > >>> :-) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> Kevin > >>> http://www.RawFedDogs.net > >>> http://www.Lassie.xyz > >>> http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > >>> Bruceville, TX > >>> > >>> What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > >>> Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > >>> > >>> > >>> > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 11:29:42 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 17:29:42 +0100 Subject: R: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: <55CA19DA.9080000@shiresoft.com> References: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> <20150810195512.GA26463@RawFedDogs.net> <009501d0d3b1$fd6ebef0$f84c3cd0$@tin.it> <55C98332.9050906@shiresoft.com> <004801d0d433$8254a3b0$86fdeb10$@tin.it> <55CA19DA.9080000@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <0b5101d0d452$edb47da0$c91d78e0$@gmail.com> The MP3000 red book explains how the system fits together. An interesting read even if you don't have one.. http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg245633.html Dave Wade G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy > Sotomayor > Sent: 11 August 2015 16:51 > To: General at main.local; Discussion at main.local:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: R: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System > > It takes 20-30 minutes from the time that I hit the power switch until there's > a login screen on the 3179s (not including the time it takes to IML the 3174 > controller). So you can see, I did a bit of editing to get a 9 minute video. ;-) > > The service board is located in the chassis. It plugs into the PCI backplane. > However other z/Series machines have an "external" laptop (though from > what I can tell, there's a drawer that the laptop sits in that you pull out when > you need to do something with the service element. > > TTFN - Guy > > On 8/11/15 5:44 AM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > > Well, that was an interesting video. How long did it take to get it fully > loaded ? > > The "service" Celeron board, is it interfaced internally to the rest, or > externally ? > > > > -----Messaggio originale----- > > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Guy > > Sotomayor > > Inviato: marted? 11 agosto 2015 07:08 > > A: General at main.local; Discussion at main.local:On-Topic and Off-Topic > > Posts > > Oggetto: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System > > > > z/OS is a licensed product from IBM (read $$$'s involved). Generally you > can't run anything newer than MVS 3.8j on Hercules. See the Hercules > website (http://www.hercules-390.eu). It has links to other sites where you > can get various OS's and other programs that can be legally run. > > > > Note that there is a "turnkey" system for MVS 3.8j that is set up for > Hercules that has an ISPF-like clone. I have that set up to run on my Mac. I > also have the VM/370 "sixpack" installed as well when I want to run VM/370. > > > > The version of z/OS installed on my MP3000 does have ISPF (along with > > lots of other program > > products) installed. > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > On 8/10/15 2:33 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> Does it include ISPF? Using MVS is a bear without it... > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Sean > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Mazzini Alessandro > wrote: > >> > >>> Well, there's a z/os image for hercules, floating around.... > >>> > >>> -----Messaggio originale----- > >>> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin > >>> Monceaux > >>> Inviato: luned? 10 agosto 2015 21:55 > >>> A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >>> Oggetto: Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System > >>> > >>> Guy, > >>> > >>> On Tue, Aug 04, 2015 at 11:20:42PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >>> > >>>> I spent some time today and made a video of my MP 3000 system > >>>> booting up to z/OS. The video is here: > http://youtu.be/WnJmeQR0GQU. > >>> Sadly I'll have to wait until I get home to watch it. YouTube is > >>> blocked where I work. I suspect I'll be experiencing extreme envy as I > watch it. > >>> The closest I have is Hercules running the OSes freely available to > >>> hobbyists. Just one thing - one doesn't boot z/OS, one IPL's z/OS. > >>> :-) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> Kevin > >>> http://www.RawFedDogs.net > >>> http://www.Lassie.xyz > >>> http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > >>> Bruceville, TX > >>> > >>> What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > >>> Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > >>> > >>> From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Aug 11 12:25:28 2015 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:25:28 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150809171247.4A77C18C10B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150809171247.4A77C18C10B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55CA3008.8020302@heeltoe.com> On 8/9/15 1:12 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > This all makes sense - if one can reach into the CPU, it's definitely > plausible to have an upgrade which expands the size of the PARs (unlike the > ENABLE board from Able). > I know I'm late to this discussion, but are you aware of this: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/konelar/RVM128-RVM512_UM_1982.pdf It's basically bank switched unibus memory. Not split I&D, I know but might be interesting. And not QBUS, I know. But I thought I'd mention it, since at one point in the discussion I could swear there was talk of the 11/34 two board set. I somehow ended up with a bunch of these boards, and some blanks and enough spares to finish some of the blanks. If you are interested I'd be more than happy to "share". I have a working 11/34 and 11/44 so I could even test them. I think I might need to blow some PALs, but I can do that if I can find the right parts (gals, most likely these days). -brad From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Aug 11 12:59:28 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:59:28 -0400 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: <55CA20C1.10002@sydex.com> References: <55C98520.2010504@sydex.com> <1F00CDE4-235E-475C-80EF-157E3A278937@comcast.net> <55CA13C3.10604@sydex.com> <817E171E-C792-4A59-8152-D12D5BD970B4@comcast.net> <55CA20C1.10002@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 11, 2015, at 12:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ... >> I suspect part of the reason is that Algol wasn?t all that popular in >> the USA even if its heyday. Add to that the fact that most computer >> designers weren?t all that skilled in software. And finally, as the >> RISC experience has shown, it isn?t really worth it. > ... > What RISC does demand is a fast memory system. The 6600 had 1 usec memory interleaved 10 ways, so it could issue a read or write every machine cycle (100 nsec). Without that, the 6600 could well have been a real dog. Every machine needs a fast memory system. CISC machines just as much, after all the number of memory references per operation of a given kind doesn?t depend on the sort of CPU architecture you use. All that changes is whether the cycles are issued by regular machine code, or micro-engine actions. A full-up 6600 is 32 way interleaved; half size you get 16 way interleaving. Once nice benefit is that context switching takes only a few microseconds, because the exchange jump would swap current and new context at memory speed: 16 words issued at 100 ns intervals once the operation gets moving. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Aug 11 13:52:10 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:52:10 -0400 Subject: Fwd: sparc20 available in boston References: <20150811180541.GA18030@netbsd.org> Message-ID: <18985AFF-EBA5-491D-8FB5-ECBD0E4E2565@comcast.net> Posting this for another NetBSD developer. Please contact him directly if interested; I don?t have any additional information. paul > Begin forwarded message: > > From: David Holland > Subject: sparc20 available in boston > Date: August 11, 2015 at 2:05:41 PM EDT > > I have a sparc20 sitting in my office that I need to get rid of for > space reasons. Anyone in Boston want it? I do not have time to deal > with shipping it, but you're welcome to try to persuade someone else > around here to do that :-) > > It has a keyboard and mouse, and I think a framebuffer, but no > monitor. There are I think two or three cpu modules, though I vaguely > recall there being an issue with one of them. Dunno how much RAM it > has. > > Deadline is Friday, although if someone speaks up by then I might be > able to hold it until the end of the month. Otherwise it gets thrown > out... > > -- > David A. Holland > dholland at netbsd.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 11 14:41:51 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:41:51 -0600 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: <817E171E-C792-4A59-8152-D12D5BD970B4@comcast.net> References: <55C98520.2010504@sydex.com> <1F00CDE4-235E-475C-80EF-157E3A278937@comcast.net> <55CA13C3.10604@sydex.com> <817E171E-C792-4A59-8152-D12D5BD970B4@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55CA4FFF.8040505@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/11/2015 9:37 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Which makes sense; it demonstrates what nearly everyone now knows, > which is that RISC architecture is a very good way to design a > computer. *NO* (Not with a single memory bus, that is) Have gun ... will travel. -:) Ben. From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 11:43:26 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (joseph lang) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 12:43:26 -0400 Subject: msc 8009 docs Message-ID: I'm trying to find docs for monolithic systems 8009 board. multibus I, z80, RAM ROM 2 serial, FDC. I see references to the board online but no actual docs. I'm looking for information (schematic) for the on board interrupt logic and bus interface. I've figured out enough to get CP/M 2.2 running on it but things like interrupts,bus time out and arbitration are implemented in PALs and defy my attempts at reverse engineering. Even docs from another model (800X) may prove useful since similar logic may be used. thanks joe lang From clemc at ccc.com Tue Aug 11 13:06:43 2015 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:06:43 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 14, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 1:00 PM, wrote: > From: Brent Hilpert > > There was also AlgolW, supported on MTS. > > As MTS was being mentioned earlier I was going to ask if anyone knew > whether the AlgolW compiler was included in the available distribution. > ?The sources are available - they were googlable - send me a note off list and I can put together a tar image of what I have. FYI: It was written PL/360. I did some hacking on it under TSS years ago.? IIRC Wirth did AlgolW on the 360 at Stanford which was running one of the OS/360 flavors. CMU ported to TSS and Michigan to MTS. also check out: The Programming Languages Genealogy Project http://everything2.com/title/the+Programming+Languages+Genealogy+Project ?Clem? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Aug 11 16:13:44 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: And speaking of ALGOL Message-ID: <20150811211344.1C34718C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > Every machine needs a fast memory system. CISC machines just as much, > after all the number of memory references per operation of a given kind > doesn't depend on the sort of CPU architecture you use. You're forgetting the memory bandwidth for the instruction fetching. RISC machines execute a stream of simple, low-level instructions, whereas CISC machines tend to do fewer, (semantically) higher-level operations - and in the process, use less memory bandwidth for instructions. To be tedious (sorry), for example, instead of of the RISC instruction sequence 'move register Ra to Rt1; add constant X to Rt1; move mem loc (Rt1) to Rt2; add Rn to Rt2; move Rt2 to mem loc (Rt1)', a CISC would just do 'add Rn to mem loc X[Ra]'. Same number of _data_ reads/writes, but a very different count of instruction fetches. The CISC tradeoff (fewer, slower, instructions) made sense 'back in the day', and not just for memory bandwidth - it made for more compact code, back when memory was in very short supply (by today's standards). Now, of course, a number of technological changes - primarily multi-level caches - have changed the 'sweet spot' for optimal instruction complexity, while keeping the memory bandwidth needed for instruction fetches down. Noel From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 11 16:30:26 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 15:30:26 -0600 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: <20150811211344.1C34718C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150811211344.1C34718C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55CA6972.7070601@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/11/2015 3:13 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > > Every machine needs a fast memory system. CISC machines just as much, > > after all the number of memory references per operation of a given kind > > doesn't depend on the sort of CPU architecture you use. > > You're forgetting the memory bandwidth for the instruction fetching. RISC > machines execute a stream of simple, low-level instructions, whereas CISC > machines tend to do fewer, (semantically) higher-level operations - and in > the process, use less memory bandwidth for instructions. > > To be tedious (sorry), for example, instead of of the RISC instruction > sequence 'move register Ra to Rt1; add constant X to Rt1; move mem loc (Rt1) > to Rt2; add Rn to Rt2; move Rt2 to mem loc (Rt1)', a CISC would just do 'add > Rn to mem loc X[Ra]'. Same number of _data_ reads/writes, but a very different > count of instruction fetches. > > The CISC tradeoff (fewer, slower, instructions) made sense 'back in the day', > and not just for memory bandwidth - it made for more compact code, back when > memory was in very short supply (by today's standards). > > Now, of course, a number of technological changes - primarily multi-level > caches - have changed the 'sweet spot' for optimal instruction complexity, > while keeping the memory bandwidth needed for instruction fetches down. > > Noel But the real question is your programming model again. It all seems to be the old FORTRAN model. Random access of any variable from absolute address. /common/ FOO(100),i,j,BAR(100) ... sum = FOO(j)+BAR(i-6)... Ben. From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Aug 11 19:27:46 2015 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 00:27:46 +0000 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Here at the museum I'm evaluating the use of a SuperCard Pro (http://www.cbmstuff.com/proddetail.php?prod=SCP) to archive and duplicate 8" floppies from various machines. It's not technically supported (the manual states that it *should* work but has not been tested, etc.) The disks I'm reading are nothing exotic (They're standard double-density, double-sided disks with an IBM format -- I could use a PC and ImageDisk to do the job, but the SuperCard is very convenient, in theory...) Thus far I've been successful in creating images of floppies, but less successful in writing them back out. Thus far I've tried a pair of Shugart 851s and a Qume QumeTrack 842. I'm using a DBit FDADAP (http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html) to deal with cabling and the TG43 signals. (And the 851s are jumpered properly for the TG43 signal, as far as I can tell). I've also tried a variety of media (Verbatim, Maxell) with the same results (though the position of the bad data varies from attempt to attempt). The issue is that upon reading back a disk that has been written via the SuperCard, data is fine up until about cylinder 60, at which point bad sectors start appearing more and more frequently (though most of the data is still OK). I tried disabling TG43 just to see if it made a difference, and it does - with TG43 disabled sectors written past cylinder 43 read back as garbage. I'm running short of ideas. Anyone else have any experience with this combo? Any suggestions on troubleshooting tips? Thanks, Josh Sr. Vintage Software Engineer Living Computer Museum www.livingcomputermuseum.org From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:38:56 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 18:38:56 -0600 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > The issue is that upon reading back a disk that has been written via the SuperCard, data is fine up until about cylinder 60, at which point bad sectors start appearing more and more frequently (though most of the data is still OK). I tried disabling TG43 just to see if it made a difference, and it does - with TG43 disabled sectors written past cylinder 43 read back as garbage. The SuperCard is apparently not using a suitable amount of write precompensation for the drives you're using. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 11 19:42:17 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 17:42:17 -0700 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <55CA9669.7040201@sydex.com> On 08/11/2015 05:27 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > The issue is that upon reading back a disk that has been written via > the SuperCard, data is fine up until about cylinder 60, at which > point bad sectors start appearing more and more frequently (though > most of the data is still OK). I tried disabling TG43 just to see if > it made a difference, and it does - with TG43 disabled sectors > written past cylinder 43 read back as garbage. > > I'm running short of ideas. Anyone else have any experience with > this combo? Any suggestions on troubleshooting tips? So what does the software do to compensate for bit crowding/shifting when writing to the inner cylinders? That is, what sort of write precompensation does it perform? --Chuck From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Aug 11 19:53:45 2015 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 00:53:45 +0000 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <55CA9669.7040201@sydex.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CA9669.7040201@sydex.com> Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCF65@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 5:42 PM To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion@ Subject: Re: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro > On 08/11/2015 05:27 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> The issue is that upon reading back a disk that has been written via >> the SuperCard, data is fine up until about cylinder 60, at which point >> bad sectors start appearing more and more frequently (though most of >> the data is still OK). I tried disabling TG43 just to see if it made >> a difference, and it does - with TG43 disabled sectors written past >> cylinder 43 read back as garbage. >> >> I'm running short of ideas. Anyone else have any experience with this >> combo? Any suggestions on troubleshooting tips? > So what does the software do to compensate for bit crowding/shifting > when writing to the inner cylinders? That is, what sort of write > precompensation does it perform? Absolutely no idea -- the manual isn't particularly technical and the SDK mentions nothing. I'll see if there's anything to be dug up in this regard. (Thanks also to Eric for suggesting this problem...) - Josh > --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 11 20:35:14 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 18:35:14 -0700 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCF65@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CA9669.7040201@sydex.com> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCF65@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <55CAA2D2.9090200@bitsavers.org> On 8/11/15 5:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Absolutely no idea -- the manual isn't particularly technical and the SDK mentions nothing. I'll see if there's anything to be dug up in this regard. (Thanks also to Eric for suggesting this problem...) > > - Josh > You may want to try asking on the supercard board. the developer seems like a reasonable guy. I just picked up a card recently as well. From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 11 20:38:22 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 20:38:22 -0500 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <55CAA38E.9080504@charter.net> Looks interesting - kind of like a catweasel using a USB bus instead of a PCI bus. I have only used my catweasel for reading, but in theory it could write as well. As for floppy emulators on the drive side, I have an SD HxC Floppy emulator (www.lotharek.pl) which I am currently using with an Altos 8000-2 to test it (just booted successfully for the first time today). One can write to it as a floppy drive, too, which I have done - a way to capture an image using a running system. Aside from the write pre-comp thing which you seem to have in hand (and which is generally handled by the *drive*, not the controller, i.e., the bit timing from the controller does not change, as far as I know), one other thing you should check is to make sure that you have your termination in place on the drive, otherwise it can mess things up on writes. I am presuming that your SuperCard properly terminates the *read* lines (RawData# in particular, and, if the drive has its own data separator and you can use it from the SuperCard Pro, SepData# and SepClk#, as well) - otherwise that could be an issue, too. I see a few SMD components in the photo, but unless they are hiding under the board, I didn't see any components placed near the connector where one might expect termination. I'd be really surprised if the designers forgot that, but it never hurts to ask, just in case. JRJ On 8/11/2015 7:27 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Here at the museum I'm evaluating the use of a SuperCard Pro (http://www.cbmstuff.com/proddetail.php?prod=SCP) to archive and duplicate 8" floppies from various machines. It's not technically supported (the manual states that it *should* work but has not been tested, etc.) The disks I'm reading are nothing exotic (They're standard double-density, double-sided disks with an IBM format -- I could use a PC and ImageDisk to do the job, but the SuperCard is very convenient, in theory...) > > Thus far I've been successful in creating images of floppies, but less successful in writing them back out. Thus far I've tried a pair of Shugart 851s and a Qume QumeTrack 842. I'm using a DBit FDADAP (http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html) to deal with cabling and the TG43 signals. (And the 851s are jumpered properly for the TG43 signal, as far as I can tell). I've also tried a variety of media (Verbatim, Maxell) with the same results (though the position of the bad data varies from attempt to attempt). > > The issue is that upon reading back a disk that has been written via the SuperCard, data is fine up until about cylinder 60, at which point bad sectors start appearing more and more frequently (though most of the data is still OK). I tried disabling TG43 just to see if it made a difference, and it does - with TG43 disabled sectors written past cylinder 43 read back as garbage. > > I'm running short of ideas. Anyone else have any experience with this combo? Any suggestions on troubleshooting tips? > > Thanks, > Josh > > Sr. Vintage Software Engineer > Living Computer Museum > www.livingcomputermuseum.org > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 11 20:47:40 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 18:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Aug 2015, Josh Dersch wrote: > Thus far I've been successful in creating images of floppies, but less > successful in writing them back out. Thus far I've tried a pair of > Shugart 851s and a Qume QumeTrack 842. I'm using a DBit FDADAP I agreee with Eric and Chuck. A quick experiment, . . . Howzbout take one of those images, and instead of writitng to an 8" drive, try writing it to a 1.2M 5.25" drive. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 11 21:24:46 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 19:24:46 -0700 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCF65@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CA9669.7040201@sydex.com> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCF65@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <55CAAE6E.2030901@sydex.com> On 08/11/2015 05:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Absolutely no idea -- the manual isn't particularly technical and > the SDK mentions nothing. I'll see if there's anything to be dug up > in this regard. (Thanks also to Eric for suggesting this > problem...) There should certainly be enough horsepower there to do just about anything. The cheap Chinese emulators use a little STM32F0 ARM Cortex M0 family MCU--dirt-cheap. There's a bit of logic to perform level shifting and OC interface, but that's about it. If you encode/decode MFM data on the fly, 32K is more than enough for track storage at 500Khz and a little buffering. Some years back, I did an emulator using a ATMega162 DIP and some external SRAMm running at 8MHz. Still more than enough, but a little tighter in coding. The Chinese ones get away cheap because the format and encoding is predetermined. But back to write precompensation. The general theory is this. Outer tracks have lower linear bit densities than inner ones because they're longer from index to index. (Would you rather run a race on the inside or the outside track?) Thus, bits (or rather changes in direction of magnetization) are closer together. Depending on head construction and track width, adjacent bits can be shifted via interference from the nominal bit timing window (yes, that means a bit already written can be shifted away from its nominal window timing center even though you put it there originally). So, the scheme is to "write with history". That is, a shift register is used to remember what was last written, what you're currently writing and then what's about to be written--and the write signal shifted a few hundred nanoseconds "early" or "late" (or not at all) according to current, past and future data, which produces a train that's closer to optimal. All of which explains why the results with no precompensation get worse the shorter the track gets. Another approach is to use "zoned" recording, where the disk is divided into zones of varying bit density, according to how close to the hub they are. You may be familiar with this with the Victor 9000 or early Mac floppy drives, but the technique is much older than floppies. Hope this helps, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Aug 11 15:14:33 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:14:33 -0700 Subject: AlgolW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90E6B924-CD88-4599-BD6B-D96842A3DED2@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Aug-11, at 11:06 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 1:00 PM, wrote: >> From: Brent Hilpert >> >> There was also AlgolW, supported on MTS. >> >> As MTS was being mentioned earlier I was going to ask if anyone knew >> whether the AlgolW compiler was included in the available distribution. >> > ?The sources are available - they were googlable - send me a note off list > and I can put together a tar image of what I have. FYI: It was written > PL/360. I did some hacking on it under TSS years ago.? IIRC Wirth did > AlgolW on the 360 at Stanford which was running one of the OS/360 flavors. > CMU ported to TSS and Michigan to MTS. I brought up AlgolW on the list a few years ago and someone clarified it was Wirth's successor to Algol 60, but that's also interesting if the MTS compiler actually is or traces back to Wirth's implementation. > also check out: > The Programming Languages Genealogy Project > > http://everything2.com/title/the+Programming+Languages+Genealogy+Project I was, so to speak, part of the experience mentioned by user dabcanboulet there: used AlgolW as a 1st-year student, was then subjected to Pascal in 2nd year and felt Pascal was a step backwards. I still have greenbar listings of my student programs but threw out my card decks 20-or-so years ago. On 2015-Aug-09, at 11:33 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: >> I believe that its included, but I haven't tried it. > Yes, *ALGOLW is included and working in the D6.0 MTS tapes. Can't start into it now due to moving, but sometime in the future I may look at getting hercules and MTS going and trying out the compiler. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 11 16:48:54 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:48:54 -0700 Subject: msc 8009 docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55CA6DC6.2090001@bitsavers.org> On 8/11/15 9:43 AM, joseph lang wrote: > I'm trying to find docs for monolithic systems 8009 board. > multibus I, z80, RAM ROM 2 serial, FDC. > I see references to the board online but no actual docs. > I'm looking for information (schematic) for the on board interrupt logic > and bus interface. > > I've figured out enough to get CP/M 2.2 running on it but things like > interrupts,bus time out and arbitration are implemented in PALs and defy > my attempts at reverse engineering. > > Even docs from another model (800X) may prove useful since similar > logic may be used. > > thanks > joe lang > I have it scanned. I'll have it up on bitsavers later tonight. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 11 18:54:45 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 16:54:45 -0700 Subject: msc 8009 docs In-Reply-To: <55CA6DC6.2090001@bitsavers.org> References: <55CA6DC6.2090001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55CA8B45.1050608@bitsavers.org> On 8/11/15 2:48 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > I have it scanned. I'll have it up on bitsavers later tonight. > It's uploaded to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/monolithicSystems it will take a couple of hours for the mirrors to pick it up. Did your board have a monitor/bootstrap ROM? If so, have you dumped it? I've got a board around somewhere.. From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 21:23:18 2015 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 10:23:18 +0800 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL Message-ID: I assure you Chuck, I do know the original B5500 ALGOL having written my first program on one. For those of you who might be interested, I sent a listing of the B6700 ALGOL compiler source code to the CHM. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Burroughs extensions to ALGOL to optimise|ize the use of the native string instructions. From mta at umich.edu Tue Aug 11 22:42:56 2015 From: mta at umich.edu (Mike Alexander) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 23:42:56 -0400 Subject: AlgolW (was: cctech Digest, Vol 14, Issue 10) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <830824FBD7E4DF2474BA4DF3@bayswater.msalexander.com> --On August 11, 2015 at 2:06:43 PM -0400 Clem Cole wrote: > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 1:00 PM, > wrote: > >> From: Brent Hilpert >> >> There was also AlgolW, supported on MTS. >> >> As MTS was being mentioned earlier I was going to ask if anyone knew >> whether the AlgolW compiler was included in the available >> distribution. >> > > ?The sources are available - they were googlable - send me a note > off list and I can put together a tar image of what I have. FYI: It > was written PL/360. I did some hacking on it under TSS years ago.? > IIRC Wirth did AlgolW on the 360 at Stanford which was running one > of the OS/360 flavors. CMU ported to TSS and Michigan to MTS. > > also check out: > The Programming Languages Genealogy Project > > http://everything2.com/title/the+Programming+Languages+Genealogy+Proj > ect > > ?Clem? One minor correction: it was Newcastle that ported AlgolW to MTS, not Michigan. I have a TAR file with the MTS source for AlgolW and notes about how to install it in MTS. The manual for AlgolW in MTS is available at . From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 12 00:11:28 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 22:11:28 -0700 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55CAD580.3030005@sydex.com> On 08/11/2015 07:23 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > I assure you Chuck, I do know the original B5500 ALGOL having written > my first program on one. > > For those of you who might be interested, I sent a listing of the > B6700 ALGOL compiler source code to the CHM. > > I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Burroughs extensions to ALGOL > to optimise|ize the use of the native string instructions. Mark, were you ever involved with the BSP? That, and the TI ASC were the dark-horse supercomputer entries way back when. --Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Aug 12 04:05:18 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:05:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <55CAA38E.9080504@charter.net> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CAA38E.9080504@charter.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Aside from the write pre-comp thing which you seem to have in hand (and > which is generally handled by the *drive*, not the controller, i.e., the > bit timing from the controller does not change, as far as I know), one Au contraire. Write precompensation is entirely handled by the controller. The drive has absolutely no idea of what it records or reads. (We're talking about floppy disk drives, not intelligent hard disks with integrated encoder/decoder and PLL like SMD or ESDI) Christian From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 04:35:25 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 05:35:25 -0400 Subject: msc 8009 docs In-Reply-To: <55CA8B45.1050608@bitsavers.org> References: <55CA6DC6.2090001@bitsavers.org> <55CA8B45.1050608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8669CC54-993E-4302-B480-5DB44FACF68F@gmail.com> It had a rom but it wasn't a debug monitor. Disk boot of some sort. I ported a monitor to the board using clues I found in the rom and a lot of multimeter time figuring out where things went. I'll look around and see if I can find it. Thanks for the manual! > On Aug 11, 2015, at 7:54 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 8/11/15 2:48 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> I have it scanned. I'll have it up on bitsavers later tonight. > > It's uploaded to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/monolithicSystems > it will take a couple of hours for the mirrors to pick it up. > > Did your board have a monitor/bootstrap ROM? If so, have you dumped it? > I've got a board around somewhere.. > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Aug 12 08:24:05 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 09:24:05 -0400 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F2DC66D-AF93-4855-9098-26725CF66973@comcast.net> > On Aug 11, 2015, at 10:23 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > > I assure you Chuck, I do know the original B5500 ALGOL having written my > first program on one. > > For those of you who might be interested, I sent a listing of the B6700 > ALGOL compiler source code to the CHM. Did it end up online somewhere? I did find a copy of the B6500 ESPOL compiler online recently. > I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Burroughs extensions to ALGOL to > optimise|ize the use of the native string instructions. Did Algol come after the hardware? I always thought of the hardware as having been customized for their Algol, but admittedly I don?t actually know which is chicken and which is egg. paul From cube1 at charter.net Wed Aug 12 08:26:49 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 08:26:49 -0500 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CAA38E.9080504@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CB4999.5010508@charter.net> You and I were thinking of two different things: I was thinking of the reduced write current on the inside tracks, and you were thinking of changing the bit timing. On the latter point, I was incorrect. For reduced write current, all the controller does is to tell the drive whether or not it is on an inside track, the drive handles the rest. I note that the pin used for this varies from drive to drive. On a Shugart 850, this is on pin 2. On a Siemens FDD 100-8, this is on pin 16, so this is something that the original correspondent should check for each of his/her drives. The Shugart 801 does not seem to have this feature. Also, there is a model of the FDD 100-8C, which counts the tracks ON ITS OWN, and DOES handle this automatically, and that is where I got confused. There are also some 5" drives which do this, e.g. the Tandon 848, either using a signal from the controller (on pin 2) or on their own. Then, when this reduced write current signal is active-low, the drive reduces the write current. This is the "TRK 43" signal that the correspondent actually referred to. Most of my 8" floppy experience was with the single-density FD1771, which does NOT change the bit timing, and ONLY has this "TG43" signal. But, you are also right in that the later controllers, e.g., the FD 1791, for example, also provide two additional signals, "EARLY" and "LATE" for write precompensation. As you point out, these signals do not go to the drive, but instead are typically used inside the controller to change the timing of the write pulses. The correspondent should probably check with the SuperCard Pro folks to make sure BOTH have been implemented. It is quite possible neither have. On 8/12/2015 4:05 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 11 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> Aside from the write pre-comp thing which you seem to have in hand (and >> which is generally handled by the *drive*, not the controller, i.e., the >> bit timing from the controller does not change, as far as I know), one > > Au contraire. > Write precompensation is entirely handled by the controller. The drive > has absolutely no idea of what it records or reads. > (We're talking about floppy disk drives, not intelligent hard disks with > integrated encoder/decoder and PLL like SMD or ESDI) > > Christian > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 12 09:30:00 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 07:30:00 -0700 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <55CB4999.5010508@charter.net> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CAA38E.9080504@charter.net> <55CB4999.5010508@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CB5868.7080109@bitsavers.org> On 8/12/15 6:26 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > The correspondent should probably check with the SuperCard Pro folks to > make sure BOTH have been implemented. It is quite possible neither have. > I know Philip ran into this with writing real media with his Diskferret. You can find a discussion about it in the archives (well, actually, you can't). Which reminds me.. The archive have never come back to http://www.classiccmp.org/lists.html I should have been more diligent with archiving them on my own, and now have a couple year hole in my local copy. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Aug 12 09:55:30 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 10:55:30 -0400 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <55CB5E62.3080004@compsys.to> >Josh Dersch wrote: >Here at the museum I'm evaluating the use of a SuperCard Pro (http://www.cbmstuff.com/proddetail.php?prod=SCP) to archive and duplicate 8" floppies from various machines. It's not technically supported (the manual states that it *should* work but has not been tested, etc.) The disks I'm reading are nothing exotic (They're standard double-density, double-sided disks with an IBM format -- I could use a PC and ImageDisk to do the job, but the SuperCard is very convenient, in theory...) > >Thus far I've been successful in creating images of floppies, but less successful in writing them back out. Thus far I've tried a pair of Shugart 851s and a Qume QumeTrack 842. I'm using a DBit FDADAP (http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html) to deal with cabling and the TG43 signals. (And the 851s are jumpered properly for the TG43 signal, as far as I can tell). I've also tried a variety of media (Verbatim, Maxell) with the same results (though the position of the bad data varies from attempt to attempt). > >The issue is that upon reading back a disk that has been written via the SuperCard, data is fine up until about cylinder 60, at which point bad sectors start appearing more and more frequently (though most of the data is still OK). I tried disabling TG43 just to see if it made a difference, and it does - with TG43 disabled sectors written past cylinder 43 read back as garbage. > >I'm running short of ideas. Anyone else have any experience with this combo? Any suggestions on troubleshooting tips? > I doubt that this suggestion will help, but it might be useful for what are called RX03 compatible media. The RX02 drive from DEC was emulated in hardware by DSD (Data Systems Design). DSD Produced a drive which was named the DSD 880/30 which consisted of 3 * RL02 internal drives and a single floppy drive which could read IBM Single Density and DEC Double Density floppy media. The DEC names for those two floppy media were RX01 and RX02. The actual DEC RX02 drive was able to read in both Single Density and Double density modes. In the case of the DEC RX01 and DEC RX02 drives, they were both Single Sided. Further DEC did at one point intend to support a Double Sided drive which I understand was to be called the DEC RX03, but it was never released that I ever heard about. The software support was specifically included in V04.00 of RT-11 in the file DY.MAC, but was probably never tested since the code was incorrect. By V05.00 of RT-11, DY.MAC no longer contained the extra code to support Double Sided media. DSD extended the support and the DSD 880/30 contained an RX03 compatible drive which could read Double Density Double Sided media. What I don't know is IF the physical characteristics of the Double Density media which DEC and DSD supported are identical to the Double Density physical characteristics of the floppy media to which you refer as having "an IBM format" since I have never encountered any floppy media from IBM other than Single Sided / Single Density. To make matters simple IF the floppy media which you have are compatible with DEC RX02 Double Density format, then with the DSD RX03 floppy drive, I extended the DY.MAC file for RT-11 and it now supports reading a Double Sided / Double Density floppy mounted in a DSD RX03 drive. If you can manage to locate a DSD 880/30 and controller to run on a DEC PDP-11/73 with RT-11, then I can make the DYX.SYS device driver available. To first make sure that everything will work with the DSD 880/30, you can test your floppy to see if a DEC RX02 can at least read the first side of your floppy. Please let me know if you know the answer to if your Double Sided / Double Density floppy media are DEC RX02 compatible on at least the first side. If that is true, then the DSD 880/30 drive will probably be able to read both sides very easily. If you have any questions, please ask. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Aug 12 10:13:36 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:13:36 -0400 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <55CB62A0.7090900@compsys.to> I forgot to mention one item. Since I had VERY few Double Sided media with the index hole offset that extra 1/2" from the Single Sided index hole - and I have many RX02 compatible floppy media which are Single Sided with the index hole in the wrong place for being a Double Sided media - I added a DPDT switch to the sense circuit of the DSD 880/30 drive. In the normal position, the Single Sided floppy media are detected as Single Sided floppy media. In the opposite position, a Single Sided floppy media is detected as Double Sided and the DSD 880/30 is then able to read / write both sides of the floppy media. Since the DSD 880/30 is also able to perform a LLF (Low Level Format), I am able to use all of the RX02 media as Double Sided WITHOUT the inconvenience of having to punch the extra index hole. >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Here at the museum I'm evaluating the use of a SuperCard Pro >> (http://www.cbmstuff.com/proddetail.php?prod=SCP) to archive and >> duplicate 8" floppies from various machines. It's not technically >> supported (the manual states that it *should* work but has not been >> tested, etc.) The disks I'm reading are nothing exotic (They're >> standard double-density, double-sided disks with an IBM format -- I >> could use a PC and ImageDisk to do the job, but the SuperCard is very >> convenient, in theory...) >> >> Thus far I've been successful in creating images of floppies, but >> less successful in writing them back out. Thus far I've tried a pair >> of Shugart 851s and a Qume QumeTrack 842. I'm using a DBit FDADAP >> (http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html) to deal with cabling and the TG43 >> signals. (And the 851s are jumpered properly for the TG43 signal, as >> far as I can tell). I've also tried a variety of media (Verbatim, >> Maxell) with the same results (though the position of the bad data >> varies from attempt to attempt). >> >> The issue is that upon reading back a disk that has been written via >> the SuperCard, data is fine up until about cylinder 60, at which >> point bad sectors start appearing more and more frequently (though >> most of the data is still OK). I tried disabling TG43 just to see if >> it made a difference, and it does - with TG43 disabled sectors >> written past cylinder 43 read back as garbage. >> >> I'm running short of ideas. Anyone else have any experience with >> this combo? Any suggestions on troubleshooting tips? > > I doubt that this suggestion will help, but it might be > useful for what are called RX03 compatible media. > > The RX02 drive from DEC was emulated in hardware > by DSD (Data Systems Design). DSD Produced a > drive which was named the DSD 880/30 which consisted > of 3 * RL02 internal drives and a single floppy drive which > could read IBM Single Density and DEC Double Density > floppy media. The DEC names for those two floppy media > were RX01 and RX02. The actual DEC RX02 drive was > able to read in both Single Density and Double density modes. > In the case of the DEC RX01 and DEC RX02 drives, they > were both Single Sided. Further DEC did at one point intend > to support a Double Sided drive which I understand was to > be called the DEC RX03, but it was never released that I > ever heard about. The software support was specifically > included in V04.00 of RT-11 in the file DY.MAC, but was > probably never tested since the code was incorrect. By > V05.00 of RT-11, DY.MAC no longer contained the extra > code to support Double Sided media. > > DSD extended the support and the DSD 880/30 contained > an RX03 compatible drive which could read Double Density > Double Sided media. What I don't know is IF the physical > characteristics of the Double Density media which DEC and > DSD supported are identical to the Double Density physical > characteristics of the floppy media to which you refer as having > "an IBM format" since I have never encountered any floppy > media from IBM other than Single Sided / Single Density. > > To make matters simple IF the floppy media which you have > are compatible with DEC RX02 Double Density format, then > with the DSD RX03 floppy drive, I extended the DY.MAC > file for RT-11 and it now supports reading a Double Sided / > Double Density floppy mounted in a DSD RX03 drive. If > you can manage to locate a DSD 880/30 and controller to > run on a DEC PDP-11/73 with RT-11, then I can make the > DYX.SYS device driver available. To first make sure that > everything will work with the DSD 880/30, you can test your > floppy to see if a DEC RX02 can at least read the first side of > your floppy. > > Please let me know if you know the answer to if your Double > Sided / Double Density floppy media are DEC RX02 compatible > on at least the first side. If that is true, then the DSD 880/30 > drive will probably be able to read both sides very easily. > > If you have any questions, please ask. > > Jerome Fine From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Aug 12 12:11:32 2015 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 17:11:32 +0000 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <55CAAE6E.2030901@sydex.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CA9669.7040201@sydex.com> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCF65@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CAAE6E.2030901@sydex.com> Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FD089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Thanks for the detailed description (and thanks to everyone else for their input!). That all makes sense. The firmware for the SuperCard Pro is closed source (which is kind of a bummer) so I can't look at it to see what it's doing. I've posted a message on the CBMStuff Forum and we'll see what the creators say. Thanks! - Josh -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 7:25 PM To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion@ Subject: Re: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro On 08/11/2015 05:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Absolutely no idea -- the manual isn't particularly technical and the > SDK mentions nothing. I'll see if there's anything to be dug up in > this regard. (Thanks also to Eric for suggesting this > problem...) There should certainly be enough horsepower there to do just about anything. The cheap Chinese emulators use a little STM32F0 ARM Cortex M0 family MCU--dirt-cheap. There's a bit of logic to perform level shifting and OC interface, but that's about it. If you encode/decode MFM data on the fly, 32K is more than enough for track storage at 500Khz and a little buffering. Some years back, I did an emulator using a ATMega162 DIP and some external SRAMm running at 8MHz. Still more than enough, but a little tighter in coding. The Chinese ones get away cheap because the format and encoding is predetermined. But back to write precompensation. The general theory is this. Outer tracks have lower linear bit densities than inner ones because they're longer from index to index. (Would you rather run a race on the inside or the outside track?) Thus, bits (or rather changes in direction of magnetization) are closer together. Depending on head construction and track width, adjacent bits can be shifted via interference from the nominal bit timing window (yes, that means a bit already written can be shifted away from its nominal window timing center even though you put it there originally). So, the scheme is to "write with history". That is, a shift register is used to remember what was last written, what you're currently writing and then what's about to be written--and the write signal shifted a few hundred nanoseconds "early" or "late" (or not at all) according to current, past and future data, which produces a train that's closer to optimal. All of which explains why the results with no precompensation get worse the shorter the track gets. Another approach is to use "zoned" recording, where the disk is divided into zones of varying bit density, according to how close to the hub they are. You may be familiar with this with the Victor 9000 or early Mac floppy drives, but the technique is much older than floppies. Hope this helps, Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Aug 12 12:36:02 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: E-mail Archives Was: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro Message-ID: <20150812173602.55DA218C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > You can find a discussion about it in the archives (well, actually, you > can't). > Which reminds me.. > The archive have never come back to http://www.classiccmp.org/lists.html Ah, which archives are we speaking of? The CCTalk archives? If so, I've been hosting an 'un-official' copy of the archives from March '97 to January '05 here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/ and they should be in Google by now. I do have copies here of the archives from February '05 to Oct '14 (partial), which were wiped out in the big list failure last fall (I forget where I got them from), but they are not on-line. I think there was some talk of them coming back at the main site, but if that's not going to happen, I'd be happy to add them to the collection here. The actual conversion from mail archives to web pages (for the '97 to '05 archives) was performed by john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (thanks, John!), and I don't have the code to do the transmogrification. I had enquired about doing the rest of the archives, but I didn't hear back. If there is significant interest in having them online too, I _could_ write new code to spit out the relevant HTML message and index files. Should I do so? Noel From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Wed Aug 12 12:39:49 2015 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 03:39:49 +1000 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: <2F2DC66D-AF93-4855-9098-26725CF66973@comcast.net> References: <2F2DC66D-AF93-4855-9098-26725CF66973@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6643C960-590E-4762-BC7A-FA573910A686@retrocomputingtasmania.com> > On 12 Aug 2015, at 11:24 pm, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Aug 11, 2015, at 10:23 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: >> For those of you who might be interested, I sent a listing of the B6700 >> ALGOL compiler source code to the CHM. > I did find a copy of the B6500 ESPOL compiler online recently. In the B5500 emulator repo: https://github.com/pkimpel/retro-b5500/tree/master/source It is still to be proofed though. > >> I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Burroughs extensions to ALGOL to >> optimise|ize the use of the native string instructions. > > Did Algol come after the hardware? I always thought of the hardware as having been customized for their Algol, but admittedly I don?t actually know which is chicken and which is egg. It is suggested in the oral history at UMN.edu that the B5000 was designed as an ALGOL machine and Burroughs had the idea that only compilers would generate machine code, so they made the B5000 compiler friendly, and the system would have an OS to manage resources, so it was designed around drum/disk being an intrinsic part of the system. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Aug 12 13:12:58 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:12:58 -0400 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <55CB8CAA.2010507@compsys.to> I forgot to mention one item. Since I had VERY few Double Sided media with the index hole offset that extra 1/2" from the Single Sided index hole - and I have many RX02 compatible floppy media which are Single Sided with the index hole in the wrong place for being a Double Sided media - I added a DPDT switch to the sense circuit of the DSD 880/30 drive. In the normal position, the Single Sided floppy media are detected as Single Sided floppy media. In the opposite position, a Single Sided floppy media is detected as Double Sided and the DSD 880/30 is then able to read / write both sides of the floppy media. Since the DSD 880/30 is also able to perform a LLF (Low Level Format), I am able to use all of the RX02 media as Double Sided WITHOUT the inconvenience of having to punch the extra index hole. >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Here at the museum I'm evaluating the use of a SuperCard Pro >> (http://www.cbmstuff.com/proddetail.php?prod=SCP) to archive and >> duplicate 8" floppies from various machines. It's not technically >> supported (the manual states that it *should* work but has not been >> tested, etc.) The disks I'm reading are nothing exotic (They're >> standard double-density, double-sided disks with an IBM format -- I >> could use a PC and ImageDisk to do the job, but the SuperCard is very >> convenient, in theory...) >> >> Thus far I've been successful in creating images of floppies, but >> less successful in writing them back out. Thus far I've tried a pair >> of Shugart 851s and a Qume QumeTrack 842. I'm using a DBit FDADAP >> (http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html) to deal with cabling and the TG43 >> signals. (And the 851s are jumpered properly for the TG43 signal, as >> far as I can tell). I've also tried a variety of media (Verbatim, >> Maxell) with the same results (though the position of the bad data >> varies from attempt to attempt). >> >> The issue is that upon reading back a disk that has been written via >> the SuperCard, data is fine up until about cylinder 60, at which >> point bad sectors start appearing more and more frequently (though >> most of the data is still OK). I tried disabling TG43 just to see if >> it made a difference, and it does - with TG43 disabled sectors >> written past cylinder 43 read back as garbage. >> >> I'm running short of ideas. Anyone else have any experience with >> this combo? Any suggestions on troubleshooting tips? > > I doubt that this suggestion will help, but it might be > useful for what are called RX03 compatible media. > > The RX02 drive from DEC was emulated in hardware > by DSD (Data Systems Design). DSD Produced a > drive which was named the DSD 880/30 which consisted > of 3 * RL02 internal drives and a single floppy drive which > could read IBM Single Density and DEC Double Density > floppy media. The DEC names for those two floppy media > were RX01 and RX02. The actual DEC RX02 drive was > able to read in both Single Density and Double density modes. > In the case of the DEC RX01 and DEC RX02 drives, they > were both Single Sided. Further DEC did at one point intend > to support a Double Sided drive which I understand was to > be called the DEC RX03, but it was never released that I > ever heard about. The software support was specifically > included in V04.00 of RT-11 in the file DY.MAC, but was > probably never tested since the code was incorrect. By > V05.00 of RT-11, DY.MAC no longer contained the extra > code to support Double Sided media. > > DSD extended the support and the DSD 880/30 contained > an RX03 compatible drive which could read Double Density > Double Sided media. What I don't know is IF the physical > characteristics of the Double Density media which DEC and > DSD supported are identical to the Double Density physical > characteristics of the floppy media to which you refer as having > "an IBM format" since I have never encountered any floppy > media from IBM other than Single Sided / Single Density. > > To make matters simple IF the floppy media which you have > are compatible with DEC RX02 Double Density format, then > with the DSD RX03 floppy drive, I extended the DY.MAC > file for RT-11 and it now supports reading a Double Sided / > Double Density floppy mounted in a DSD RX03 drive. If > you can manage to locate a DSD 880/30 and controller to > run on a DEC PDP-11/73 with RT-11, then I can make the > DYX.SYS device driver available. To first make sure that > everything will work with the DSD 880/30, you can test your > floppy to see if a DEC RX02 can at least read the first side of > your floppy. > > Please let me know if you know the answer to if your Double > Sided / Double Density floppy media are DEC RX02 compatible > on at least the first side. If that is true, then the DSD 880/30 > drive will probably be able to read both sides very easily. > > If you have any questions, please ask. > > Jerome Fine From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Aug 12 13:34:43 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 19:34:43 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: E-mail Archives Was: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:36:02 -0400 (EDT)" <20150812173602.55DA218C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <01PPGVP17H380084J5@beyondthepale.ie> > > If so, I've been hosting an 'un-official' copy of the archives from March '97 > to January '05 here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/ > The posting email addresses are only slightly disguised and could be harvested by spammers. Would it be possible to filter them a bit better before they are found? (The email addresses which I exclusively use with cctech & cctalk receive next to zero spam at the moment and I would hate that to change.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Aug 12 13:41:52 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:41:52 -0400 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: <6643C960-590E-4762-BC7A-FA573910A686@retrocomputingtasmania.com> References: <2F2DC66D-AF93-4855-9098-26725CF66973@comcast.net> <6643C960-590E-4762-BC7A-FA573910A686@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: <09CFC3A5-69F5-4466-BF09-11D5770B3C8C@comcast.net> > On Aug 12, 2015, at 1:39 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > > >> On 12 Aug 2015, at 11:24 pm, Paul Koning wrote: >> ... >> Did Algol come after the hardware? I always thought of the hardware as having been customized for their Algol, but admittedly I don?t actually know which is chicken and which is egg. > > It is suggested in the oral history at UMN.edu that the B5000 was designed as an ALGOL machine and Burroughs had the idea that only compilers would generate machine code, so they made the B5000 compiler friendly, and the system would have an OS to manage resources, so it was designed around drum/disk being an intrinsic part of the system. That sounds right. For one thing, it is clear if you study the hardware manuals that the system is NOT secure against machine language programmers. Security comes from the fact that the compilers other than ESPOL will not generate code that compromises security, and the ESPOL compiler is protected so that ordinary peons do not have access to it. I found this out when I tried to write a program that reads foreign format tapes, in particular past tape marks. Algol can?t do that ? either that, or the consultants couldn?t figure out how. I started looking at other languages, but when I started asking questions about DCALGOL I got a whole lot of pushback from the system staff. They viewed questions like that with extreme suspicion. paul From jws at jwsss.com Wed Aug 12 13:44:29 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:44:29 -0700 Subject: E-mail Archives Was: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <20150812173602.55DA218C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150812173602.55DA218C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55CB940D.1000907@jwsss.com> I sent Al a link to my google drive copy of the archives thru 2012. I am going to create a 2012-2015 manually from my email archive of the group and add that. If you send email, i'll send you the link to my google drive public archive. thanks Jim On 8/12/2015 10:36 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > > You can find a discussion about it in the archives (well, actually, you > > can't). > > Which reminds me.. > > The archive have never come back to http://www.classiccmp.org/lists.html > > Ah, which archives are we speaking of? The CCTalk archives? > > If so, I've been hosting an 'un-official' copy of the archives from March '97 > to January '05 here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/ > > and they should be in Google by now. > > I do have copies here of the archives from February '05 to Oct '14 (partial), > which were wiped out in the big list failure last fall (I forget where I got > them from), but they are not on-line. I think there was some talk of them > coming back at the main site, but if that's not going to happen, I'd be happy > to add them to the collection here. > > The actual conversion from mail archives to web pages (for the '97 to '05 > archives) was performed by john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (thanks, John!), and I > don't have the code to do the transmogrification. I had enquired about doing > the rest of the archives, but I didn't hear back. > > If there is significant interest in having them online too, I _could_ write > new code to spit out the relevant HTML message and index files. Should I do > so? > > Noel > > From cube1 at charter.net Wed Aug 12 14:28:59 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:28:59 -0500 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: <6643C960-590E-4762-BC7A-FA573910A686@retrocomputingtasmania.com> References: <2F2DC66D-AF93-4855-9098-26725CF66973@comcast.net> <6643C960-590E-4762-BC7A-FA573910A686@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: <55CB9E7B.8010405@charter.net> In addition, B5500/B5700 Mark XIII and B5500/B5700 MARK XV.3 release tapes can be found online. UNISYS released these under the "UNISYS MCP MARK XIII SOFTWARE EDUCATIONAL/HOBBYIST LICENSE AGREEMENT" in 2012, having been approached by the owner of the tapes. At least Mark XIII is available on Paul Kimpel's web site. PLEASE NOTE THE LICENSE, which was arranged through Unisys (Bob Supnik was the contact at the time, but he has since retired from Unisys, according to what I see on LinkedIn). The history of how that happened is on the web page, below, along with links to download the tape images. http://www.phkimpel.us/B5500/webSite/SoftwareRequest.html A Google for "MARK XV.3 BURROUGHS" will turn up the MARK XV.3 tapes as well. ;) I am not aware of a similar license document for that set, but I suggest it should be considered to exist under at least the same restrictions ("solely for non-commercial educational or hobbyist purposes"). Anyway, I looked at my listing of the MARK XIII tape SYMBOL1 7 Track BCD tape image, and it has ESPOL source. The ESPOL Compiler, version MARK XIII.0 starts at File 18, dated July 15, 1971. I'd expect it to be present on MARK XV.3 as well, of course. Also on the MARK XIII SYMBOL1 tape (Looking at the directory in file 2, from my same listing) MCP INTRINS ALGOL BASIC COBOL DC1000 FORTRAN NDL TSPOL XALGOL I don't seem to have ever made a listing of what is on tape SYMBOL2. How odd. But, not to worry, a listing of what is on that tape is available at: http://www.phkimpel.us/B5500/webSite/TapeImage-SYMBOL2.html JRJ On 8/12/2015 12:39 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > >> On 12 Aug 2015, at 11:24 pm, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Aug 11, 2015, at 10:23 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: >>> For those of you who might be interested, I sent a listing of the B6700 >>> ALGOL compiler source code to the CHM. >> I did find a copy of the B6500 ESPOL compiler online recently. > > In the B5500 emulator repo: https://github.com/pkimpel/retro-b5500/tree/master/source > > It is still to be proofed though. >> >>> I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Burroughs extensions to ALGOL to >>> optimise|ize the use of the native string instructions. >> >> Did Algol come after the hardware? I always thought of the hardware as having been customized for their Algol, but admittedly I don?t actually know which is chicken and which is egg. > > It is suggested in the oral history at UMN.edu that the B5000 was designed as an ALGOL machine and Burroughs had the idea that only compilers would generate machine code, so they made the B5000 compiler friendly, and the system would have an OS to manage resources, so it was designed around drum/disk being an intrinsic part of the system. > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 12 14:36:33 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:36:33 -0700 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <55CB8CAA.2010507@compsys.to> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CB8CAA.2010507@compsys.to> Message-ID: <55CBA041.2010103@sydex.com> On 08/12/2015 11:12 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I forgot to mention one item. Since I had VERY few Double Sided > media with the index hole offset that extra 1/2" from the Single Sided > index hole - and I have many RX02 compatible floppy media which > are Single Sided with the index hole in the wrong place for being a > Double Sided media - I added a DPDT switch to the sense circuit > of the DSD 880/30 drive. In the normal position, the Single Sided > floppy media are detected as Single Sided floppy media. In the > opposite position, a Single Sided floppy media is detected as Double > Sided and the DSD 880/30 is then able to read / write both sides > of the floppy media. Since the DSD 880/30 is also able to perform > a LLF (Low Level Format), I am able to use all of the RX02 media > as Double Sided WITHOUT the inconvenience of having to punch > the extra index hole. My drives are configured to take either index signal--so it doesn't matter if the media is coded as SS or DS. Many floppy drives can do this. --Chuck From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 14:48:52 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:48:52 -0700 Subject: GRiD Compass power supply information Message-ID: Hi folks, I picked up an 1101 GRiDcompass with no power supply. I'd like to attempt a retrofit. Does anyone know what voltages are in play? I'm specifically worried about the EL panel and want to know if the high voltages for it are produced in the PSU itself, or the panel. Any information, or leads on a spare power supply are appreciated. Failing that, I'll start reverse engineering the PSU in my other 1101- they're just a pain to work on. - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 15:05:34 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:05:34 -0600 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <55CBA041.2010103@sydex.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CB8CAA.2010507@compsys.to> <55CBA041.2010103@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 1:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My drives are configured to take either index signal--so it doesn't matter > if the media is coded as SS or DS. Many floppy drives can do this. Some 8-inch double-sided drives don't care about which index sensor is active, other than to output the appropriate logic level on the TWO SIDED interface signal, but will let you read and write both sides of single-sided media. Some drives, like the Mitsubishi M2896-63, can be configured to suppress the READY output if the second side of a single-sided disk is selected, or to ignore the sidedness of the medium. Mitsubishi refers to this as "Ready Standard" vs. "Ready Modified". From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 12 15:26:29 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:26:29 -0700 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CB8CAA.2010507@compsys.to> <55CBA041.2010103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55CBABF5.3080903@sydex.com> On 08/12/2015 01:05 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Some drives, like the Mitsubishi M2896-63, can be configured to > suppress the READY output if the second side of a single-sided disk > is selected, or to ignore the sidedness of the medium. Mitsubishi > refers to this as "Ready Standard" vs. "Ready Modified". ...and others, such as the Siemens FDD-100 (single sided) will output an "illegal medium" signal if double-sded floppies are inserted. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 16:22:36 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 15:22:36 -0600 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <55CBABF5.3080903@sydex.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CB8CAA.2010507@compsys.to> <55CBA041.2010103@sydex.com> <55CBABF5.3080903@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...and others, such as the Siemens FDD-100 (single sided) will output an > "illegal medium" signal if double-sded floppies are inserted. Interesting. I think the single-sided drives I've dealt with just never assert READY, because they don't have a sensor at the index position of a double-sided medium. From cube1 at charter.net Wed Aug 12 16:50:57 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 16:50:57 -0500 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <55CBABF5.3080903@sydex.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CB8CAA.2010507@compsys.to> <55CBA041.2010103@sydex.com> <55CBABF5.3080903@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55CBBFC1.5010006@charter.net> On 8/12/2015 3:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ...and others, such as the Siemens FDD-100 (single sided) will output an > "illegal medium" signal if double-sded floppies are inserted. > > --Chuck > Hmmm. I have an FDD-100-8 (single sided). The manual mentions no such signal and only one index sensor/detector, and I don't see it on the schematic either. Schematic/manual reference? Maybe this was something on very very late models? JRJ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 12 18:21:12 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 16:21:12 -0700 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CB8CAA.2010507@compsys.to> <55CBA041.2010103@sydex.com> <55CBABF5.3080903@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55CBD4E8.2000907@sydex.com> On 08/12/2015 02:22 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Chuck Guzis > wrote: >> ...and others, such as the Siemens FDD-100 (single sided) will >> output an "illegal medium" signal if double-sded floppies are >> inserted. > > Interesting. I think the single-sided drives I've dealt with just > never assert READY, because they don't have a sensor at the index > position of a double-sided medium. I could have that reversed--and that SS media in the FDD-200 would cause an "illegal media" signal to be asserted, but it's odd either way. I'll have to check bitsavers when I get time. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 12 19:01:46 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 17:01:46 -0700 Subject: E-mail Archives Was: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <01PPGVP17H380084J5@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PPGVP17H380084J5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <55CBDE6A.5080505@bitsavers.org> On 8/12/15 11:34 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > The posting email addresses are only slightly disguised and could be harvested > by spammers. Would it be possible to filter them a bit better before they are > found? > That horse is already out of the barn. https://web.archive.org/web/20141025044832/http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ for example All they'd have to do is pull down the .zip files, which is what I just did to fill in the couple years that I didn't pull down from the archive. and IA has snapshots for that URL going back years. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 12 19:04:00 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 17:04:00 -0700 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <55CBD4E8.2000907@sydex.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CB8CAA.2010507@compsys.to> <55CBA041.2010103@sydex.com> <55CBABF5.3080903@sydex.com> <55CBD4E8.2000907@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55CBDEF0.3030802@bitsavers.org> On 8/12/15 4:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I could have that reversed--and that SS media in the FDD-200 would cause an "illegal media" signal to be asserted, but it's odd either way. > I'll have to check bitsavers when I get time. > An FD-200 service manual would be nice to have a scan of. I don't have a copy. It is a little embarrassing that all I have up for Siemens are two floppy disk manuals. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 12 21:15:39 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 19:15:39 -0700 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <55CBDEF0.3030802@bitsavers.org> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CB8CAA.2010507@compsys.to> <55CBA041.2010103@sydex.com> <55CBABF5.3080903@sydex.com> <55CBD4E8.2000907@sydex.com> <55CBDEF0.3030802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55CBFDCB.1090001@sydex.com> I went back to the FDD-200 manual. The signal is ILLEGAL PACK and is on the FDD200, not FDD100 --that's logical. Sorry, I've been distracted by personal events lately. --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Aug 12 21:22:14 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 22:22:14 -0400 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <55CBA041.2010103@sydex.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CB8CAA.2010507@compsys.to> <55CBA041.2010103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55CBFF56.9090009@compsys.to> >Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/12/2015 11:12 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> I forgot to mention one item. Since I had VERY few Double Sided >> media with the index hole offset that extra 1/2" from the Single Sided >> index hole - and I have many RX02 compatible floppy media which >> are Single Sided with the index hole in the wrong place for being a >> Double Sided media - I added a DPDT switch to the sense circuit >> of the DSD 880/30 drive. In the normal position, the Single Sided >> floppy media are detected as Single Sided floppy media. In the >> opposite position, a Single Sided floppy media is detected as Double >> Sided and the DSD 880/30 is then able to read / write both sides >> of the floppy media. Since the DSD 880/30 is also able to perform >> a LLF (Low Level Format), I am able to use all of the RX02 media >> as Double Sided WITHOUT the inconvenience of having to punch >> the extra index hole. > > > My drives are configured to take either index signal--so it doesn't > matter if the media is coded as SS or DS. Many floppy drives can do this. If I remember correctly, the DSD 880/30 provided the DY(X).SYS device driver in RT-11 with a bit that specified if the index hole was for a SS or a DS floppy media. If the media was SS, DY(X).SYS would select ONLY side 1 for any operation. If the media was DS, then side 2 was also allowed. So the index hole for DS media was used to determine if sectors on side 2 should be allowed to be read or written. The signal for DS media did not actually change what happened except to support (or not support) the use of side 2. One rather interesting aspect was that the DEC code did not alternate between side 1 and side 2 as the head advanced. All of side 1 was processed first followed by all of side 2. As a result, when a floppy media with a SS index hole was written on both side 1 and side 2, a DEC RX02 drive could still read all of side 1. On other hardware which also supported the same electrical and LLF setup, the DS 8" floppy media device driver alternated between side 1 and side 2. If a floppy media from that system was using in a DEC RX02, only the first few sectors on side 1 could be successfully read. If anyone actually wants to know, I can look up the code. It must have been more than 15 years ago when the device driver was enhanced. Jerome Fine From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 12 21:46:43 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 21:46:43 -0500 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw. com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: At 07:27 PM 8/11/2015, Josh Dersch wrote: >Thus far I've been successful in creating images of floppies, but less successful in writing them back out. Thus far I've tried a pair of Shugart 851s and a Qume QumeTrack 842. I'm using a DBit FDADAP (http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html) to deal with cabling and the TG43 signals. I'd tried the SuperCard Pro / FDADAP combo last March with no success. I hope to return to the task. Maybe it was a problem with my drive(s). - John From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Aug 12 22:04:43 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 23:04:43 -0400 Subject: B 5000, MCP, etc - was Re: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: <6643C960-590E-4762-BC7A-FA573910A686@retrocomputingtasmania.com> References: <2F2DC66D-AF93-4855-9098-26725CF66973@comcast.net> <6643C960-590E-4762-BC7A-FA573910A686@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: <55CC094B.20901@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-08-12 1:39 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > >> On 12 Aug 2015, at 11:24 pm, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Aug 11, 2015, at 10:23 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: >>> For those of you who might be interested, I sent a listing of the B6700 >>> ALGOL compiler source code to the CHM. >> I did find a copy of the B6500 ESPOL compiler online recently. > > In the B5500 emulator repo: https://github.com/pkimpel/retro-b5500/tree/master/source > > It is still to be proofed though. >> >>> I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Burroughs extensions to ALGOL to >>> optimise|ize the use of the native string instructions. >> >> Did Algol come after the hardware? I always thought of the hardware as having been customized for their Algol, but admittedly I don?t actually know which is chicken and which is egg. > > It is suggested in the oral history at UMN.edu that the B5000 was designed as an ALGOL machine and Burroughs had the idea that only compilers would generate machine code, so they made the B5000 compiler friendly, and the system would have an OS to manage resources, so it was designed around drum/disk being an intrinsic part of the system. > > For more on this, see "Classic Operating Systems," Per Brinch Hansen, which reprints the paper "Operating System for the B 5000", Clark Oliphint (1964). "Two of the major B 5000 design objectives were (1) that all programming was to be done in ALGOL and COBOL, and (2) that the operation of the system was to be directed by a Master Control Program (MCP) which would relieve the operator and---especially---the programmer of virtually all the inefficient and error-causing details of peripheral unit designation, memory area assignment, and so on. The simultaneous and coordinated design of the computer and the programming system has produced a hardware-software system so well integrated that all B 5000 users employ the standard programming system (with minor modifications for special applications in a few cases). It has been the experience of B 5000 users that the exclusive use of compiler languages in programming gives advantages in documentation, program preparation, and debugging which cannot be over emphasized. ..." --Toby From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 12 22:08:34 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 20:08:34 -0700 Subject: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: <55CBFF56.9090009@compsys.to> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106298FCEEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <55CB8CAA.2010507@compsys.to> <55CBA041.2010103@sydex.com> <55CBFF56.9090009@compsys.to> Message-ID: <55CC0A32.1010602@sydex.com> On 08/12/2015 07:22 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > One rather interesting aspect was that the DEC code did not > alternate between side 1 and side 2 as the head advanced. All of > side 1 was processed first followed by all of side 2. As a result, > when a floppy media with a SS index hole was written on both side 1 > and side 2, a DEC RX02 drive could still read all of side 1. That's not unusual, at least in the CP/M world. A very common ordering was all of side 1, then side 2, but in descending track order (i.e, from the innermost to the outermost cylinders). Or side 1, then back to cylinder 0 on side 2. Some started in the middle of the disk (i.e. cylinder 37 or so, then writing cylinders 36->0 and then 38->77, alternating sides--or not. Wonderful stuff. --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 22:12:45 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 22:12:45 -0500 Subject: More DEC boards Message-ID: Well, here's another update on my never ending/ always changing list of quad and hex boards. These are all M7xxx, and the M8xxx should be done in a week or so. There are a few boards here I will be using myself, But I am planning on selling off about 80% of my DEC equipment. All is located in zip 61853 and most is shipable. There are a lot of boards to go through yet, and this list does not show any PDP8 parts or industrial control, but feel free to inquire. There are still some DEC things I am willing to trade for, but I also collect US, Great Britain, and Canadian and other coins, boy scout items, and from our English members or anyone else who knows what it is, Doulton, mostly Lambeth. Old microscopes, and almost anything Zeiss. Cash always works. Please contact me off list. https://doc-0s-6g-docs.googleusercontent.com/docs/securesc/o60568klv0gtnikaj190c28cfbjs27dp/722do688tvtpb4a64c9f3pfpi34q5663/1439431200000/13384207694442286812/13384207694442286812/0B2MOaRm-6XKNV3hENS1Hd1lURXc?e=download From useddec at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 22:15:37 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 22:15:37 -0500 Subject: Naked minis Message-ID: I was having problems sending these to some members, so i'm trying to post them. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B2MOaRm-6XKNfkxxZ0ZMZldZUGh0SjVMWHA0RGJ4QkxVcE02SjhNMmVOMWpGcmJUaFRQZEU&usp=gmail From cube1 at charter.net Wed Aug 12 22:25:15 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 22:25:15 -0500 Subject: More DEC boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55CC0E1B.50600@charter.net> When I visited this link, I ended up with a blank, white page. JRJ On 8/12/2015 10:12 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Well, here's another update on my never ending/ always changing list of > quad and hex boards. These are all M7xxx, and the M8xxx should be done in a > week or so. There are a few boards here I will be using myself, But I am > planning on selling off about 80% of my DEC equipment. All is located in > zip 61853 and most is shipable. There are a lot of boards to go through > yet, and this list does not show any PDP8 parts or industrial control, but > feel free to inquire. > > There are still some DEC things I am willing to trade for, but I also > collect US, Great Britain, and Canadian and other coins, boy scout items, > and from our English members or anyone else who knows what it is, Doulton, > mostly Lambeth. Old microscopes, and almost anything Zeiss. Cash always > works. > > Please contact me off list. > > https://doc-0s-6g-docs.googleusercontent.com/docs/securesc/o60568klv0gtnikaj190c28cfbjs27dp/722do688tvtpb4a64c9f3pfpi34q5663/1439431200000/13384207694442286812/13384207694442286812/0B2MOaRm-6XKNV3hENS1Hd1lURXc?e=download > From useddec at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 22:26:49 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 22:26:49 -0500 Subject: More DEC boards In-Reply-To: <55CC0E1B.50600@charter.net> References: <55CC0E1B.50600@charter.net> Message-ID: Thanks Jay, I was afraid i messed in up.... On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > When I visited this link, I ended up with a blank, white page. > > JRJ > > On 8/12/2015 10:12 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > Well, here's another update on my never ending/ always changing list of > > quad and hex boards. These are all M7xxx, and the M8xxx should be done > in a > > week or so. There are a few boards here I will be using myself, But I am > > planning on selling off about 80% of my DEC equipment. All is located in > > zip 61853 and most is shipable. There are a lot of boards to go through > > yet, and this list does not show any PDP8 parts or industrial control, > but > > feel free to inquire. > > > > There are still some DEC things I am willing to trade for, but I also > > collect US, Great Britain, and Canadian and other coins, boy scout items, > > and from our English members or anyone else who knows what it is, > Doulton, > > mostly Lambeth. Old microscopes, and almost anything Zeiss. Cash always > > works. > > > > Please contact me off list. > > > > > https://doc-0s-6g-docs.googleusercontent.com/docs/securesc/o60568klv0gtnikaj190c28cfbjs27dp/722do688tvtpb4a64c9f3pfpi34q5663/1439431200000/13384207694442286812/13384207694442286812/0B2MOaRm-6XKNV3hENS1Hd1lURXc?e=download > > > From scaron at umich.edu Wed Aug 12 14:38:37 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 15:38:37 -0400 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: <55CB9E7B.8010405@charter.net> References: <2F2DC66D-AF93-4855-9098-26725CF66973@comcast.net> <6643C960-590E-4762-BC7A-FA573910A686@retrocomputingtasmania.com> <55CB9E7B.8010405@charter.net> Message-ID: Ooh, thanks for that; I have long been intrigued by Burroughs ... they always tried rather unusual approaches ... seeing if I can get MCP fired up sounds like a fun weekend project. Best, Sean On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > In addition, B5500/B5700 Mark XIII and B5500/B5700 MARK XV.3 release > tapes can be found online. > > UNISYS released these under the "UNISYS MCP MARK XIII SOFTWARE > EDUCATIONAL/HOBBYIST LICENSE AGREEMENT" in 2012, having been approached > by the owner of the tapes. > > At least Mark XIII is available on Paul Kimpel's web site. PLEASE NOTE > THE LICENSE, which was arranged through Unisys (Bob Supnik was the > contact at the time, but he has since retired from Unisys, according to > what I see on LinkedIn). The history of how that happened is on the web > page, below, along with links to download the tape images. > > http://www.phkimpel.us/B5500/webSite/SoftwareRequest.html > > A Google for "MARK XV.3 BURROUGHS" will turn up the MARK XV.3 tapes as > well. ;) I am not aware of a similar license document for that set, > but I suggest it should be considered to exist under at least the same > restrictions ("solely for non-commercial educational or hobbyist > purposes"). > > Anyway, I looked at my listing of the MARK XIII tape SYMBOL1 7 Track BCD > tape image, and it has ESPOL source. The ESPOL Compiler, version MARK > XIII.0 starts at File 18, dated July 15, 1971. > > I'd expect it to be present on MARK XV.3 as well, of course. > > Also on the MARK XIII SYMBOL1 tape (Looking at the directory in file 2, > from my same listing) > > MCP > INTRINS > ALGOL > BASIC > COBOL > DC1000 > FORTRAN > NDL > TSPOL > XALGOL > > I don't seem to have ever made a listing of what is on tape SYMBOL2. > How odd. But, not to worry, a listing of what is on that tape is > available at: > > http://www.phkimpel.us/B5500/webSite/TapeImage-SYMBOL2.html > > JRJ > > On 8/12/2015 12:39 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > > > >> On 12 Aug 2015, at 11:24 pm, Paul Koning > wrote: > >>> On Aug 11, 2015, at 10:23 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > >>> For those of you who might be interested, I sent a listing of the B6700 > >>> ALGOL compiler source code to the CHM. > >> I did find a copy of the B6500 ESPOL compiler online recently. > > > > In the B5500 emulator repo: > https://github.com/pkimpel/retro-b5500/tree/master/source > > > > It is still to be proofed though. > >> > >>> I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Burroughs extensions to ALGOL to > >>> optimise|ize the use of the native string instructions. > >> > >> Did Algol come after the hardware? I always thought of the hardware as > having been customized for their Algol, but admittedly I don?t actually > know which is chicken and which is egg. > > > > It is suggested in the oral history at UMN.edu that the B5000 was > designed as an ALGOL machine and Burroughs had the idea that only compilers > would generate machine code, so they made the B5000 compiler friendly, and > the system would have an OS to manage resources, so it was designed around > drum/disk being an intrinsic part of the system. > > > > > From jws at jwsss.com Wed Aug 12 23:58:48 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 21:58:48 -0700 Subject: More DEC boards In-Reply-To: References: <55CC0E1B.50600@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CC2408.4040804@jwsss.com> On 8/12/2015 8:26 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Thanks Jay, > > I was afraid i messed in up.... > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> When I visited this link, I ended up with a blank, white page. >> >> JRJ >> I get a blank page too, no action. Google drive shares don't leave much you can adjust to try to fix links. The entire link got thru fine, but it isn't working. Maybe you need to make sure it is view, and public. thanks Jim From useddec at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 00:33:14 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 00:33:14 -0500 Subject: More DEC boards In-Reply-To: <55CC2408.4040804@jwsss.com> References: <55CC0E1B.50600@charter.net> <55CC2408.4040804@jwsss.com> Message-ID: This might work better https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2MOaRm-6XKNV3hENS1Hd1lURXc/view?usp=sharing On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 11:58 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 8/12/2015 8:26 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> Thanks Jay, >> >> I was afraid i messed in up.... >> >> On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> >> When I visited this link, I ended up with a blank, white page. >>> >>> JRJ >>> >>> I get a blank page too, no action. Google drive shares don't leave much > you can adjust to try to fix links. The entire link got thru fine, but it > isn't working. > > Maybe you need to make sure it is view, and public. > > thanks > Jim > > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 00:42:53 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 00:42:53 -0500 Subject: More DEC boards In-Reply-To: References: <55CC0E1B.50600@charter.net> <55CC2408.4040804@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Sorry, this wasn't done the way i wanted. for the 2 digit numbers place a 70 in front, for the rest , just put a M7 in front. On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > This might work better > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2MOaRm-6XKNV3hENS1Hd1lURXc/view?usp=sharing > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 11:58 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > >> >> >> On 8/12/2015 8:26 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> >>> Thanks Jay, >>> >>> I was afraid i messed in up.... >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >>> >>> When I visited this link, I ended up with a blank, white page. >>>> >>>> JRJ >>>> >>>> I get a blank page too, no action. Google drive shares don't leave >> much you can adjust to try to fix links. The entire link got thru fine, >> but it isn't working. >> >> Maybe you need to make sure it is view, and public. >> >> thanks >> Jim >> >> > From supervinx at libero.it Thu Aug 13 01:25:10 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 08:25:10 +0200 Subject: R: Re: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro Message-ID: Hi! A bit OT. I tried the fdadap card successfully reading and writing SD and DD disks, together with a standard ISA controller. Had to try a bit, since not every disk controller manages SD writes.? So the FDADAP should be ok, and the problems lie on the Supercard side. I contacted the Supercard guy, in order to know if there's a Linux support. I've no windows machines, only some specialized DOS one. -------- Messaggio originale -------- Da: John Foust Data:13/08/2015 04:46 (GMT+01:00) A: cctalk at classiccmp.org Oggetto: Re: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro At 07:27 PM 8/11/2015, Josh Dersch wrote: >Thus far I've been successful in creating images of floppies, but less successful in writing them back out.? Thus far I've tried a pair of Shugart 851s and a Qume QumeTrack 842.? I'm using a DBit FDADAP (http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html) to deal with cabling and the TG43 signals. I'd tried the SuperCard Pro / FDADAP combo last March with no success. I hope to return to the task.? Maybe it was a problem with my drive(s). - John From supervinx at libero.it Thu Aug 13 01:28:16 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 08:28:16 +0200 Subject: R: Re: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro Message-ID: He told me there's no Linux support. I should try Keirf's utils or access the hardware with a serial connection. May be I could try the Supercard in a VM. -------- Messaggio originale -------- Da: supervinx Data:13/08/2015 08:25 (GMT+01:00) A: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Oggetto: R: Re: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro Hi! A bit OT. I tried the fdadap card successfully reading and writing SD and DD disks, together with a standard ISA controller. Had to try a bit, since not every disk controller manages SD writes.? So the FDADAP should be ok, and the problems lie on the Supercard side. I contacted the Supercard guy, in order to know if there's a Linux support. I've no windows machines, only some specialized DOS one. -------- Messaggio originale -------- Da: John Foust Data:13/08/2015? 04:46? (GMT+01:00) A: cctalk at classiccmp.org Oggetto: Re: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro At 07:27 PM 8/11/2015, Josh Dersch wrote: >Thus far I've been successful in creating images of floppies, but less successful in writing them back out.? Thus far I've tried a pair of Shugart 851s and a Qume QumeTrack 842.? I'm using a DBit FDADAP (http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html) to deal with cabling and the TG43 signals. I'd tried the SuperCard Pro / FDADAP combo last March with no success. I hope to return to the task.? Maybe it was a problem with my drive(s). - John From supervinx at libero.it Thu Aug 13 01:37:11 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 08:37:11 +0200 Subject: R: Re: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro Message-ID: Older DOS utils like IMD or TELEDISK knew better about 8" disks and precompression, directly accessing the controller. If the Supercard software has been written with no 8" disks support it will be hard to manage writes correctly. My two cents -------- Messaggio originale -------- Da: supervinx Data:13/08/2015 08:28 (GMT+01:00) A: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Oggetto: R: Re: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro He told me there's no Linux support. I should try Keirf's utils or access the hardware with a serial connection. May be I could try the Supercard in a VM. -------- Messaggio originale -------- Da: supervinx Data:13/08/2015? 08:25? (GMT+01:00) A: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Oggetto: R: Re: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro Hi! A bit OT. I tried the fdadap card successfully reading and writing SD and DD disks, together with a standard ISA controller. Had to try a bit, since not every disk controller manages SD writes.? So the FDADAP should be ok, and the problems lie on the Supercard side. I contacted the Supercard guy, in order to know if there's a Linux support. I've no windows machines, only some specialized DOS one. -------- Messaggio originale -------- Da: John Foust Data:13/08/2015? 04:46? (GMT+01:00) A: cctalk at classiccmp.org Oggetto: Re: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro At 07:27 PM 8/11/2015, Josh Dersch wrote: >Thus far I've been successful in creating images of floppies, but less successful in writing them back out.? Thus far I've tried a pair of Shugart 851s and a Qume QumeTrack 842.? I'm using a DBit FDADAP (http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html) to deal with cabling and the TG43 signals. I'd tried the SuperCard Pro / FDADAP combo last March with no success. I hope to return to the task.? Maybe it was a problem with my drive(s). - John From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Aug 13 01:38:00 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 08:38:00 +0200 Subject: More DEC boards In-Reply-To: References: <55CC0E1B.50600@charter.net> <55CC2408.4040804@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20150813063800.GB5921@Update.UU.SE> Hi Many interesting boards. I tried to identify them with the field guide: http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt But many numbers didn't exist there. For instance M7765 of which you have 15. Have I missed something? /P On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 12:42:53AM -0500, Paul Anderson wrote: > Sorry, this wasn't done the way i wanted. for the 2 digit numbers place a > 70 in front, for the rest , just put a M7 in front. > > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > This might work better > > > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2MOaRm-6XKNV3hENS1Hd1lURXc/view?usp=sharing > > > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 11:58 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> On 8/12/2015 8:26 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> > >>> Thanks Jay, > >>> > >>> I was afraid i messed in up.... > >>> > >>> On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >>> > >>> When I visited this link, I ended up with a blank, white page. > >>>> > >>>> JRJ > >>>> > >>>> I get a blank page too, no action. Google drive shares don't leave > >> much you can adjust to try to fix links. The entire link got thru fine, > >> but it isn't working. > >> > >> Maybe you need to make sure it is view, and public. > >> > >> thanks > >> Jim > >> > >> > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 13 02:16:14 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 00:16:14 -0700 Subject: R: Re: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55CC443E.4000805@sydex.com> On 08/12/2015 11:37 PM, supervinx wrote: > Older DOS utils like IMD or TELEDISK knew better about 8" disks and > precompression, directly accessing the controller. If the Supercard > software has been written with no 8" disks support it will be hard to > manage writes correctly. My two cents It's perfectly possible; it's done with the Catweasel routinely. I don't know what the resolution of the Supercard is, but it should be at least equivalent to the 40MHz of the old Catweasel MK 3, wouldn't you think? Take a look at the Linux Catweasel drivers if you want a hint. The source is still out there. --Chuck From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Thu Aug 13 02:53:17 2015 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 17:23:17 +0930 Subject: Wang PC260 memory fault Message-ID: <55CC4CED.8040808@kaput.homeunix.org> Hi List, So a good friend of mine recently resurrected his childhood 286 Wang PC260 after I suggested he replace the keyboard controller. In the 14 or so years it's been unused, it has developed a memory fault in one of the conventional memory banks. The memory is soldered to the board so we're looking for anything that might assist in tracking down the dud memory IC. He can get it to boot if the memory size is set to 256kB, so I'm guessing the second 256kB bank is bad. Is there software that exists that can identify individual dead or faulty memory IC's, or at least the corresponding bit(s) which may not be working? According to Dr. Google, this machine was built by Tandy for Wang. Perhaps there's a Tandy diagnostic disk that'll work with it, or better yet a Wang diagnostic disk. (I'm wondering if this question has been asked/answered before too) Cheers, Alexis. From useddec at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 02:57:56 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 02:57:56 -0500 Subject: More DEC boards In-Reply-To: <20150813063800.GB5921@Update.UU.SE> References: <55CC0E1B.50600@charter.net> <55CC2408.4040804@jwsss.com> <20150813063800.GB5921@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Hi Pontus, No, you probably didn't miss anything. I have several students working for me and they don't always get it. Sorry, I'll try to correct it next week. Thanks, Paul On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 1:38 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > Many interesting boards. I tried to identify them with the field guide: > http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt > > But many numbers didn't exist there. For instance M7765 of which you > have 15. > > Have I missed something? > > /P > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 12:42:53AM -0500, Paul Anderson wrote: > > Sorry, this wasn't done the way i wanted. for the 2 digit numbers place > a > > 70 in front, for the rest , just put a M7 in front. > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Paul Anderson > wrote: > > > > > This might work better > > > > > > > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2MOaRm-6XKNV3hENS1Hd1lURXc/view?usp=sharing > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 11:58 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> On 8/12/2015 8:26 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > >> > > >>> Thanks Jay, > > >>> > > >>> I was afraid i messed in up.... > > >>> > > >>> On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Jay Jaeger > wrote: > > >>> > > >>> When I visited this link, I ended up with a blank, white page. > > >>>> > > >>>> JRJ > > >>>> > > >>>> I get a blank page too, no action. Google drive shares don't leave > > >> much you can adjust to try to fix links. The entire link got thru > fine, > > >> but it isn't working. > > >> > > >> Maybe you need to make sure it is view, and public. > > >> > > >> thanks > > >> Jim > > >> > > >> > > > > From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Thu Aug 13 03:25:17 2015 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 18:25:17 +1000 Subject: B 5000, MCP, etc - was Re: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: <55CC094B.20901@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F2DC66D-AF93-4855-9098-26725CF66973@comcast.net> <6643C960-590E-4762-BC7A-FA573910A686@retrocomputingtasmania.com> <55CC094B.20901@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > On 13 Aug 2015, at 1:04 pm, Toby Thain wrote: > For more on this, see "Classic Operating Systems," Per Brinch Hansen, which reprints the paper "Operating System for the B 5000", Clark Oliphint (1964). > > "Two of the major B 5000 design objectives were (1) that all programming was to be done in ALGOL and COBOL, and (2) that the operation of the system was to be directed by a Master Control Program (MCP) which would relieve the operator and---especially---the programmer of virtually all the inefficient and error-causing details of peripheral unit designation, memory area assignment, and so on. The simultaneous and coordinated design of the computer and the programming system has produced a hardware-software system so well integrated that all B 5000 users employ the standard programming system (with minor modifications for special applications in a few cases). It has been the experience of B 5000 users that the exclusive use of compiler languages in programming gives advantages in documentation, program preparation, and debugging which cannot be over emphasized. ..." Oliphint provides an interesting interpretation of the ?design objectives? but as we see in the oral history (at UMN.edu) some of the decisions were arguably made (or at least supported) for different reasons, even within the groups who made them. For example, some people within the B5000 design team were certain that ALGOL was the better language and would dominate scientific computing (it wasn?t clear to them that FORTRAN would last the distance). They supported this view by referencing CACM?s decision to publish algorithms solely in ALGOL. Others within the group saw risk in an ALGOL-only machine and fearing a too restricted customer base urged support for COBOL to be added (hence the haphazard attempt at a set of string operators that was later completely replaced with a new design for the B6700 - many ideas from the B5500 were evolved for the B6700 but the string operators were not). The feeling was the B5000 never really delivered on the promises, and it was only when the B5500 was released, and after several iterations of the MCP (the operating system) did it really deliver the benefits cited for many of the original design decisions. From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Thu Aug 13 03:40:03 2015 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 18:40:03 +1000 Subject: And speaking of ALGOL In-Reply-To: <09CFC3A5-69F5-4466-BF09-11D5770B3C8C@comcast.net> References: <2F2DC66D-AF93-4855-9098-26725CF66973@comcast.net> <6643C960-590E-4762-BC7A-FA573910A686@retrocomputingtasmania.com> <09CFC3A5-69F5-4466-BF09-11D5770B3C8C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <092F0BC7-770D-4A06-A387-C3CDD5DCB078@retrocomputingtasmania.com> > On 13 Aug 2015, at 4:41 am, Paul Koning wrote: > I found this out when I tried to write a program that reads foreign format tapes, in particular past tape marks. Algol can?t do that ? either that, or the consultants couldn?t figure out how. I?m assuming the sentence above is in the same era as the sentence below and with your reference to DCALGOL then you?re really referencing the Mark II.x releases of DCALGOL for the B6700 (DCALGOL was new with the B6500 family and was intended to support the Datacomm subsystem). I say Mark II since by the time of Mark III.x the stand-alone DCALGOL was merged back into the main ALGOL compiler which then supported DMALGOL for the DMS (data management support) in a single compiler. ALGOL for Mark II.x was mainly for user-space programs and lacked access to system level operations which were instead moved to ESPOL (later replaced in Mark III.x with NEWP). ESPOL could generate any operation codes through a direct pass-through so if there was a limitation dealing with tape-marks it came from the tape-drive implementation and not the programming language. > I started looking at other languages, but when I started asking questions about DCALGOL I got a whole lot of pushback from the system staff. They viewed questions like that with extreme suspicion. DCALGOL allowed direct control of the communications subsystem and mistakes would potentially impact all users, so their reaction is understandable. From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 06:49:48 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 07:49:48 -0400 Subject: IMSAI VDP-80 documentation? Message-ID: Today I am taking delivery of an IMSAI VDP-80 and am very happy to have found one. This helps fill in my IMSAI collection. While it comes with some disks (and I can deal with restoring the Persci drives), it comes with no documentation. I do want to restore it to working condition. I also have a PCS-80/30 that, I believe, shares some of the cards but not all and have the documentation for that one. Would anyone have any IMSAI VDP-80 documentation they can share? There doesn't appear to be any online; at least in the usual places. Thanks, Santo From PeksaDO at cardiff.ac.uk Thu Aug 13 07:10:28 2015 From: PeksaDO at cardiff.ac.uk (Doug Peksa) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 12:10:28 +0000 Subject: Help needed to read 5.2GB DVD-RAM Type 1 cartridges - UK Message-ID: Can anyone help with this - A colleague (doing voluntary work) is trying to retrieve data archived on cartridges as per subject. Does anyone have a drive he can borrow or buy; can someone read them for him etc? If anyone can help, e-mail me directly and I'll put you in touch. Have seen a couple of drives on ebay.com but none on ebay.co.uk. As per my e-mail address, Cardiff area. Note - I read cctalk in digest mode. TIA. Doug. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 13 09:40:42 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 07:40:42 -0700 Subject: Wang PC260 memory fault In-Reply-To: <55CC4CED.8040808@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <55CC4CED.8040808@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: If you can write your own code, usually a simple write and read sequence will find a dead RAM. Just write 0xFF to a location and expect to read it back and then 0 and read it back. You write it so that it will stop at the bad RAM location and continually loop that location. Probing with a scope on the chip enables will usually find the byte that is failing. Then just look at the data pins to see which chip does not match the others. It helps to have a two channel scope so one can trigger on the enable while the other looks at the data. This is not a high quality manufacture type test but most RAMs fail completely, making such a test useful. Dwight > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org > Subject: Wang PC260 memory fault > Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 17:23:17 +0930 > > Hi List, > > So a good friend of mine recently resurrected his childhood 286 Wang > PC260 after I suggested he replace the keyboard controller. In the 14 or > so years it's been unused, it has developed a memory fault in one of the > conventional memory banks. The memory is soldered to the board so we're > looking for anything that might assist in tracking down the dud memory IC. > > He can get it to boot if the memory size is set to 256kB, so I'm > guessing the second 256kB bank is bad. Is there software that exists > that can identify individual dead or faulty memory IC's, or at least the > corresponding bit(s) which may not be working? > > According to Dr. Google, this machine was built by Tandy for Wang. > Perhaps there's a Tandy diagnostic disk that'll work with it, or better > yet a Wang diagnostic disk. > > (I'm wondering if this question has been asked/answered before too) > > Cheers, > > Alexis. From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Aug 13 10:24:43 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 10:24:43 -0500 Subject: Wang PC260 memory fault In-Reply-To: References: <55CC4CED.8040808@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <55CCB6BB.6090105@pico-systems.com> On 08/13/2015 09:40 AM, dwight wrote: > If you can write your own code, usually a simple write and read > sequence will find a dead RAM. Memtest 86 ought to run on that machine. (Might have to find a very old archived version, but any version that will boot from floppy ought to run on it.) Then, you only have to figure out which row of chips is which bank, and which column is which bit. Depending on what docs exist, that may not be real easy. Last resort is to trace wires on the board to see which chips are wired to which bus lines and address decoders. Jon From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 12:05:54 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 10:05:54 -0700 Subject: IMSAI VDP-80 documentation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 4:49 AM, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Today I am taking delivery of an IMSAI VDP-80 and am very happy to have > found one. This helps fill in my IMSAI collection. While it comes with > some disks (and I can deal with restoring the Persci drives), it comes with > no documentation. I do want to restore it to working condition. > > I also have a PCS-80/30 that, I believe, shares some of the cards but not > all and have the documentation for that one. > > Would anyone have any IMSAI VDP-80 documentation they can share? There > doesn't appear to be any online; at least in the usual places. > > Thanks, > Santo > I have a complete set of docs with my VDP-80, but the challenge will be getting them scanned in. Let me see what I can do. - Josh From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 13 10:26:17 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 10:26:17 -0500 Subject: More DEC boards In-Reply-To: References: <55CC0E1B.50600@charter.net> <55CC2408.4040804@jwsss.com> <20150813063800.GB5921@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <55CCB719.2080105@charter.net> I turned the list into a CSV, based on M7... assumption, using the list at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/modules/modulesAndOptions/editedOptionModuleLst_Apr83.pdf M700/M70/M7,qty,From editedOptionModuleLst_Apr83.pdf 0,,VT05 Cursor 13,,VT40 (?) vector/char gen 14,,VT40 (?) boot/term 24,,VT55 Graph. Ctl 25,,KW11-K Dual programmable clock (LDP) 26,,???? Not listed 27,,???? Not Listed 86,,PTV11-E Control 92,11,PDP-11/44 KE44-A CIS Data Path/Logic 94,2,PDP-11/44 KD11-Z Data Path 95,,PDP-11/44 KD11-Z Control 96,,PDP-11/44 KD11-Z Multifunction Module 98,,PDP-11/44 KD11-Z Unibus 110,,DS11 Synch. Modem interface 122,3,RT801 FDC Microprocessor Controller 123,,RT805 FDC Serial Line Interface 127,3,RT800 FDC Serial Bus Port 128,2,???? Not Listed 135,,???? Not Listed 136,,???? Not Listed 147,2,M7808 (M7247 + M7246) W/ Synchronized Scanner (DM11) 164,13,???? Not Listed 165,14,???? Not Listed 168,2,???? Not Listed 196,6,TSV05 Controller 211,,KE11-A Register Control (PDP-11/20 Extended Arithmetic Element) 219,2,RC11 Bus Interface 228,5,KW11-P Programmable RTC 232,4,PDP-11/40 KD11-A uWord 244,,DM11 Transmitter 251,12,XOR & CRC Block KG11-A 254,6,RK11-D Status Control 255,6,"RK11-D Disk Control [NOTE: If -YA, modified for Diablo Series 30]" 256,3,RK11-D Registers 257,5,RD11-D Bus Control 258,12,LP11/LS11 Interface 259,,Parity for MF11-LP 260,,PDP-11/05 KD11-B Data Paths 264,19,PDP-11/03 Processor w 4K RAM 268,,RKV11-D Qbus 280,2,"8 UARTS on Quad, DJ11" 410,3,???? Not Listed 454,8,???? Not Listed 485,2,UDA50-A Unibus to Radial Disk w/No ROMS 500,,PDP-11/23 Qual Serial Line Qbus Interface 507,2,???? Not Listed 508,,???? Not Listed 509,,???? Not Listed 510,,???? Not Listed 521,,???? Not Listed 546,2,???? Not Listed 547,2,???? Not Listed 551,6,???? Not Listed 552,2,???? Not Listed 554,5,???? Not Listed 555,4,???? Not Listed 556,4,???? Not Listed 577,,???? Not Listed 602,6,???? Not Listed 605,2,???? Not Listed 606,,???? Not Listed 608,13,???? Not Listed 609,9,???? Not Listed 620,7,???? Not Listed 621,24,???? Not Listed 622,25,???? Not Listed 624,5,???? Not Listed 625,2,???? Not Listed 626,3,???? Not Listed 637,,???? Not Listed 639,2,???? Not Listed 677,7,???? Not Listed 706,2,RK06 Interface & Timing 744,20,RX02 Control 745,14,RX02 Read/Write 765,15,???? Not Listed 769,10,???? Not Listed 772,3,RP04 Synchronous Logic 773,3,RP04 Asynchronous Logic 774,4,RP04 Register Logic 775,2,RP04 Dual Port Logic 776,4,RP04 Error Correction Logic 787,,RP05/6 Interfqace Control 793,,DEUNA Link Module (M7792 to Ethernet Bus Line Unit) 800,32,"Asynch Transmitter/Receiver, KL11 (Various submodels exist)" 803,,Arbitration Control for MC11 807,2,"M7247, M105, M7821 on One Quad, EIA Only (DM11)" 810,6,M781 + M105 + M7821 on one Quad (Paper Tape Interface) 814,3,"8-Line 20MA Data Mux, 50 to 100K Baud DZ11-C, DZ11-D, DZ11-F" 819,3,DZ11-A 8 Line Dbl Buf Async EIA 50 to 96 Kbaud W 103A Modem Control 821,,Fast M7280 (Interrupt Control) 822,12,DU11 846,2,RX01 UNIBUS Interface 847,22,MS11 Memory (Various Submodels exist) 850,15,"MM11-BP, MM111-CP Parity Board for G651, MS-11-?P" 856,14,"DL11-W, SLU/RTC Option" 859,2,PDP-11/34 KY11-LB Console Interface (8008 CPU) 860,4,DR11-C = M786+M105+M7821 864,,DR11-L 2 Word UNIBUS Input Interface 867,,DUP11-DA SDLC or DDCMP Sync Interface 876,,PDP-11/60 KD11-K Timing 891,,MS11-L? (Varous Submodels Exist) 893,3,"DRS11, 48 outputs (Various submodels exist: TTL, Open Collector)" 894,,"DRS11, 48 Optical Isolated Outputs" 896,,"DRS11 48 Contact Sense Inputs (Submodels exist - 24V, 48V)" 903,,RK611 Data 904,,RK611 Drive Interface 908,,RK07 Track Position Detector 910,,M791+M105_M7821 Parallel Interface to LA30P 911,,"TMB11 Tabe Control 1, Hex" 921,,MA11-F Data Multiplexor 922,,MA11-F Address Multiplexor 923,,MA11-F Mux Control 930,2,M793+M105+M7821 Interface to Data Products line printers 944,2,MSV11-B 4K 16 Bit MOS 946,5,RXV11 Control 950,3,DRV11-B DMA 16 Bit Parallel Interface 951,2,DUV11-DA Sync Interface 952,,"KWV11-A LSI11 Bus, Programmable RTC" 955,3,MSV11-?D (Various Submodels Exist) 957,33,"DZV11, 4 Line Dlb Buf Async Mux EIA 50 - 10 K Baud W 103 Modem Control" 958,,Q-Bus to I/O Daisy Chain Bus Control & Interface 982,,TS11 UNIBUS to Serial Bus Controller 983,2,MFS11-K Family Control 991,2,PCL11-B TXM (Transmitter) Interface 992,2,PCL11-B TXM UNIBUS Control 993,2,PCL11-B TXM Registers 994,2,PCL11-B TDM Bus Logic * Drivers 995,2,PCL11-B RCV (Receiver) Registers 996,2,PCL11-B RCV UNIBUS Control 997,2,"PCL11-B RCV Interface," On 8/13/2015 2:57 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Pontus, > > No, you probably didn't miss anything. I have several students working for > me and they don't always get it. Sorry, I'll try to correct it next week. > > Thanks, Paul > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 1:38 AM, Pontus Pihlgren > wrote: > >> Hi >> >> Many interesting boards. I tried to identify them with the field guide: >> http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt >> >> But many numbers didn't exist there. For instance M7765 of which you >> have 15. >> >> Have I missed something? >> >> /P >> >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 12:42:53AM -0500, Paul Anderson wrote: >>> Sorry, this wasn't done the way i wanted. for the 2 digit numbers place >> a >>> 70 in front, for the rest , just put a M7 in front. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Paul Anderson >> wrote: >>> >>>> This might work better >>>> >>>> >>>> >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2MOaRm-6XKNV3hENS1Hd1lURXc/view?usp=sharing >>>> >>>> On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 11:58 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 8/12/2015 8:26 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks Jay, >>>>>> >>>>>> I was afraid i messed in up.... >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Jay Jaeger >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> When I visited this link, I ended up with a blank, white page. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JRJ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I get a blank page too, no action. Google drive shares don't leave >>>>> much you can adjust to try to fix links. The entire link got thru >> fine, >>>>> but it isn't working. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe you need to make sure it is view, and public. >>>>> >>>>> thanks >>>>> Jim >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 10:29:08 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 10:29:08 -0500 Subject: More DEC boards In-Reply-To: <55CCB719.2080105@charter.net> References: <55CC0E1B.50600@charter.net> <55CC2408.4040804@jwsss.com> <20150813063800.GB5921@Update.UU.SE> <55CCB719.2080105@charter.net> Message-ID: Thanks Jay, I'll try to figure out it the non listed are typos or newer boards. On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 10:26 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I turned the list into a CSV, based on M7... assumption, using the list at > > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/modules/modulesAndOptions/editedOptionModuleLst_Apr83.pdf > > M700/M70/M7,qty,From editedOptionModuleLst_Apr83.pdf > > 0,,VT05 Cursor > 13,,VT40 (?) vector/char gen > 14,,VT40 (?) boot/term > 24,,VT55 Graph. Ctl > 25,,KW11-K Dual programmable clock (LDP) > 26,,???? Not listed > 27,,???? Not Listed > 86,,PTV11-E Control > 92,11,PDP-11/44 KE44-A CIS Data Path/Logic > 94,2,PDP-11/44 KD11-Z Data Path > 95,,PDP-11/44 KD11-Z Control > 96,,PDP-11/44 KD11-Z Multifunction Module > 98,,PDP-11/44 KD11-Z Unibus > 110,,DS11 Synch. Modem interface > 122,3,RT801 FDC Microprocessor Controller > 123,,RT805 FDC Serial Line Interface > 127,3,RT800 FDC Serial Bus Port > 128,2,???? Not Listed > 135,,???? Not Listed > 136,,???? Not Listed > 147,2,M7808 (M7247 + M7246) W/ Synchronized Scanner (DM11) > 164,13,???? Not Listed > 165,14,???? Not Listed > 168,2,???? Not Listed > 196,6,TSV05 Controller > 211,,KE11-A Register Control (PDP-11/20 Extended Arithmetic Element) > 219,2,RC11 Bus Interface > 228,5,KW11-P Programmable RTC > 232,4,PDP-11/40 KD11-A uWord > 244,,DM11 Transmitter > 251,12,XOR & CRC Block KG11-A > 254,6,RK11-D Status Control > 255,6,"RK11-D Disk Control [NOTE: If -YA, modified for Diablo Series 30]" > 256,3,RK11-D Registers > 257,5,RD11-D Bus Control > 258,12,LP11/LS11 Interface > 259,,Parity for MF11-LP > 260,,PDP-11/05 KD11-B Data Paths > 264,19,PDP-11/03 Processor w 4K RAM > 268,,RKV11-D Qbus > 280,2,"8 UARTS on Quad, DJ11" > 410,3,???? Not Listed > 454,8,???? Not Listed > 485,2,UDA50-A Unibus to Radial Disk w/No ROMS > 500,,PDP-11/23 Qual Serial Line Qbus Interface > 507,2,???? Not Listed > 508,,???? Not Listed > 509,,???? Not Listed > 510,,???? Not Listed > 521,,???? Not Listed > 546,2,???? Not Listed > 547,2,???? Not Listed > 551,6,???? Not Listed > 552,2,???? Not Listed > 554,5,???? Not Listed > 555,4,???? Not Listed > 556,4,???? Not Listed > 577,,???? Not Listed > 602,6,???? Not Listed > 605,2,???? Not Listed > 606,,???? Not Listed > 608,13,???? Not Listed > 609,9,???? Not Listed > 620,7,???? Not Listed > 621,24,???? Not Listed > 622,25,???? Not Listed > 624,5,???? Not Listed > 625,2,???? Not Listed > 626,3,???? Not Listed > 637,,???? Not Listed > 639,2,???? Not Listed > 677,7,???? Not Listed > 706,2,RK06 Interface & Timing > 744,20,RX02 Control > 745,14,RX02 Read/Write > 765,15,???? Not Listed > 769,10,???? Not Listed > 772,3,RP04 Synchronous Logic > 773,3,RP04 Asynchronous Logic > 774,4,RP04 Register Logic > 775,2,RP04 Dual Port Logic > 776,4,RP04 Error Correction Logic > 787,,RP05/6 Interfqace Control > 793,,DEUNA Link Module (M7792 to Ethernet Bus Line Unit) > 800,32,"Asynch Transmitter/Receiver, KL11 (Various submodels exist)" > 803,,Arbitration Control for MC11 > 807,2,"M7247, M105, M7821 on One Quad, EIA Only (DM11)" > 810,6,M781 + M105 + M7821 on one Quad (Paper Tape Interface) > 814,3,"8-Line 20MA Data Mux, 50 to 100K Baud DZ11-C, DZ11-D, DZ11-F" > 819,3,DZ11-A 8 Line Dbl Buf Async EIA 50 to 96 Kbaud W 103A Modem Control > 821,,Fast M7280 (Interrupt Control) > 822,12,DU11 > 846,2,RX01 UNIBUS Interface > 847,22,MS11 Memory (Various Submodels exist) > 850,15,"MM11-BP, MM111-CP Parity Board for G651, MS-11-?P" > 856,14,"DL11-W, SLU/RTC Option" > 859,2,PDP-11/34 KY11-LB Console Interface (8008 CPU) > 860,4,DR11-C = M786+M105+M7821 > 864,,DR11-L 2 Word UNIBUS Input Interface > 867,,DUP11-DA SDLC or DDCMP Sync Interface > 876,,PDP-11/60 KD11-K Timing > 891,,MS11-L? (Varous Submodels Exist) > 893,3,"DRS11, 48 outputs (Various submodels exist: TTL, Open Collector)" > 894,,"DRS11, 48 Optical Isolated Outputs" > 896,,"DRS11 48 Contact Sense Inputs (Submodels exist - 24V, 48V)" > 903,,RK611 Data > 904,,RK611 Drive Interface > 908,,RK07 Track Position Detector > 910,,M791+M105_M7821 Parallel Interface to LA30P > 911,,"TMB11 Tabe Control 1, Hex" > 921,,MA11-F Data Multiplexor > 922,,MA11-F Address Multiplexor > 923,,MA11-F Mux Control > 930,2,M793+M105+M7821 Interface to Data Products line printers > 944,2,MSV11-B 4K 16 Bit MOS > 946,5,RXV11 Control > 950,3,DRV11-B DMA 16 Bit Parallel Interface > 951,2,DUV11-DA Sync Interface > 952,,"KWV11-A LSI11 Bus, Programmable RTC" > 955,3,MSV11-?D (Various Submodels Exist) > 957,33,"DZV11, 4 Line Dlb Buf Async Mux EIA 50 - 10 K Baud W 103 Modem > Control" > 958,,Q-Bus to I/O Daisy Chain Bus Control & Interface > 982,,TS11 UNIBUS to Serial Bus Controller > 983,2,MFS11-K Family Control > 991,2,PCL11-B TXM (Transmitter) Interface > 992,2,PCL11-B TXM UNIBUS Control > 993,2,PCL11-B TXM Registers > 994,2,PCL11-B TDM Bus Logic * Drivers > 995,2,PCL11-B RCV (Receiver) Registers > 996,2,PCL11-B RCV UNIBUS Control > 997,2,"PCL11-B RCV Interface," > > > > On 8/13/2015 2:57 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > Hi Pontus, > > > > No, you probably didn't miss anything. I have several students working > for > > me and they don't always get it. Sorry, I'll try to correct it next week. > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 1:38 AM, Pontus Pihlgren > > wrote: > > > >> Hi > >> > >> Many interesting boards. I tried to identify them with the field guide: > >> http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt > >> > >> But many numbers didn't exist there. For instance M7765 of which you > >> have 15. > >> > >> Have I missed something? > >> > >> /P > >> > >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 12:42:53AM -0500, Paul Anderson wrote: > >>> Sorry, this wasn't done the way i wanted. for the 2 digit numbers > place > >> a > >>> 70 in front, for the rest , just put a M7 in front. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Paul Anderson > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> This might work better > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2MOaRm-6XKNV3hENS1Hd1lURXc/view?usp=sharing > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 11:58 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 8/12/2015 8:26 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks Jay, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I was afraid i messed in up.... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Jay Jaeger > >> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> When I visited this link, I ended up with a blank, white page. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> JRJ > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I get a blank page too, no action. Google drive shares don't leave > >>>>> much you can adjust to try to fix links. The entire link got thru > >> fine, > >>>>> but it isn't working. > >>>>> > >>>>> Maybe you need to make sure it is view, and public. > >>>>> > >>>>> thanks > >>>>> Jim > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 13 11:05:17 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:05:17 -0700 Subject: More DEC boards In-Reply-To: <55CCB719.2080105@charter.net> References: <55CC0E1B.50600@charter.net> <55CC2408.4040804@jwsss.com> <20150813063800.GB5921@Update.UU.SE> <55CCB719.2080105@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CCC03D.6030802@bitsavers.org> >>> But many numbers didn't exist there. For instance M7765 of which you >>> have 15. http://www.tamayatech.com/partsindex/partM009.htm fills in some of the M76xx/77xx holes be careful, there are lots of other vendors in there too From useddec at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 11:44:58 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 11:44:58 -0500 Subject: More DEC boards In-Reply-To: <55CCC03D.6030802@bitsavers.org> References: <55CC0E1B.50600@charter.net> <55CC2408.4040804@jwsss.com> <20150813063800.GB5921@Update.UU.SE> <55CCB719.2080105@charter.net> <55CCC03D.6030802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hi Al, once again I have high school kids doing things I can no longer do. I'll go through the list next time they are here. Thanks, Paul On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > But many numbers didn't exist there. For instance M7765 of which you >>>> have 15. >>>> >>> > http://www.tamayatech.com/partsindex/partM009.htm > > fills in some of the M76xx/77xx holes > > be careful, there are lots of other vendors in there too > > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 13 13:18:59 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 11:18:59 -0700 Subject: IMSAI VDP-80 documentation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BD0E32B-FBB1-4902-A4DD-B99C4E5A416D@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Aug-13, at 4:49 AM, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Today I am taking delivery of an IMSAI VDP-80 and am very happy to have > found one. This helps fill in my IMSAI collection. While it comes with > some disks (and I can deal with restoring the Persci drives), it comes with > no documentation. I do want to restore it to working condition. > > I also have a PCS-80/30 that, I believe, shares some of the cards but not > all and have the documentation for that one. > > Would anyone have any IMSAI VDP-80 documentation they can share? There > doesn't appear to be any online; at least in the usual places. As an S100 system, you may be able to piece most of the doc together bit by bit. Here's doc for the video board for example: http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/IMSAI/VIO%20Board/VIO%20Board.htm From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Aug 13 16:12:09 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 22:12:09 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: E-mail Archives Was: Writing 8" floppies with SuperCard Pro In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 12 Aug 2015 17:01:46 -0700" <55CBDE6A.5080505@bitsavers.org> References: <01PPGVP17H380084J5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01PPID12GG3S0084J5@beyondthepale.ie> On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 at 17:01:46 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 8/12/15 11:34 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > The posting email addresses are only slightly disguised and could be harvested > > by spammers. Would it be possible to filter them a bit better before they are > > found? > > > > That horse is already out of the barn. > > https://web.archive.org/web/20141025044832/http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ > > for example > > All they'd have to do is pull down the .zip files, which is what I just did > to fill in the couple years that I didn't pull down from the archive. > > and IA has snapshots for that URL going back years. > Over the last five years, my filters have rejected just 46 spams directed to the email addresses I used to post to this list and another 6 made it through. There have been none at all since April 2013. It sppears most spammers can't be bothered to or can't even manage to download zip files and unzip them. Email addresses with minimal protection on non-https web pages are much more likely to be within range of the average spammers skill set. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 22:11:21 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 23:11:21 -0400 Subject: GRiD Compass power supply information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: did you find the info? On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Hi folks, > > I picked up an 1101 GRiDcompass with no power supply. > > I'd like to attempt a retrofit. Does anyone know what voltages are in play? > > I'm specifically worried about the EL panel and want to know if the high > voltages for it are produced in the PSU itself, or the panel. > > Any information, or leads on a spare power supply are appreciated. > > Failing that, I'll start reverse engineering the PSU in my other 1101- > they're just a pain to work on. > > - Ian > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 14:55:04 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:55:04 -0400 Subject: More DEC boards In-Reply-To: <55CCC03D.6030802@bitsavers.org> References: <55CC0E1B.50600@charter.net> <55CC2408.4040804@jwsss.com> <20150813063800.GB5921@Update.UU.SE> <55CCB719.2080105@charter.net> <55CCC03D.6030802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hopefully that's M7762 ... On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 12:05 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >>>> But many numbers didn't exist there. For instance M7765 of which you >>>> have 15. > > > http://www.tamayatech.com/partsindex/partM009.htm > > fills in some of the M76xx/77xx holes > > be careful, there are lots of other vendors in there too > > > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 13 23:44:38 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 21:44:38 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a Lockheed SUE? Message-ID: <55CD7236.1090603@bitsavers.org> I turned up some CPU info on it, which I uploaded to bitsavers/lockheed/sue Dumps of the programmable parts on the CPU would be nice if anyone has one. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Aug 14 10:02:39 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:02:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: QBUS boards on eBay checp Message-ID: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Some guy on eBay is selling a ton of QBUS boards, cheap: http://www.ebay.com/sch/computer_surpluscheap/m.html Includes deals such as 11/23 CPU's _with_ KTF11 and KEF11 for $30, 11/73 CPU's for $50, etc, etc. Anyone recognize those Motorola memory cards? Do we have documentatio for them? Noel From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 14 11:27:40 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:27:40 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> I have a Shugart 800-8 with a media centering problem. I know it is definitely that and not something else (say, electronics, TRK00 position, etc.), because I can see the "wobble" in the signal coming from the heads on a 'scope. Depending on how I load the floppy, the attenuation can be from nothing (in which case the floppy reads/writes fine, including exchange with other drives - the Altos has a nice floppy diagnostic), to as much as 80% (in which case I cannot boot from it, it won't read anything at all). So, it isn't the TRK00 position or anything like that. With a 'scope, I can see that the wobble is a bit over 80ms in period - 1/2 the rotation time, confirming that it is wobble. It isn't slipping or anything like that, and I have tried different media as well, to make sure that the issue isn't a worn hole in the floppy, etc. I can usually get it to center properly if the drive is on its side, and when I close the door I close it slowly, and "massage" the door (a bit more closed, a bit more open a couple of times) just as the clamp starts to engage the spindle - say, two out of three insertions work fine. This also confirms that the spindle itself is not wobbling, aside from simple In the normal position of this system, the drive is upside down, with the motor-driven spindle on top. In that position, I am lucky to get it to work one out of five times. The issue is not the head load tension or pad, either -- even when off center, the peak amplitude is just fine, and when properly centered, the amplitude is the same as the other drive on this system on tracks 0, 38 and 76. I have exchanged the spindle clamp with another drive, and also the eject mechanism (the spring was a bit stretched when I first got the drive, but I repaired that) as well, to no avail. The handle was a little out of adjustment - coming down a bit too close to the spindle (but not interfering with it), but adjusting that did not seem to help either. When I look at the cartridge guide without the spindle clamp in place, it is now centered above the spindle, and at the same distance from the spindle as my drive that does not have these issues. Anybody have any experience like this? Thoughts? There really isn't much to adjust on these things. JRJ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Aug 14 12:45:20 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 10:45:20 -0700 Subject: QBUS boards on eBay checp In-Reply-To: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4F4225FD-CD1A-4828-ADA4-89A70038208C@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Aug-14, at 8:02 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Some guy on eBay is selling a ton of QBUS boards, cheap: > > http://www.ebay.com/sch/computer_surpluscheap/m.html > > Includes deals such as 11/23 CPU's _with_ KTF11 and KEF11 for $30, 11/73 CPU's > for $50, etc, etc. > > Anyone recognize those Motorola memory cards? Do we have documentatio for > them? OK, who snagged the QBus bubble memory? http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-CIRCUIT-BOARD-FOR-SCRAP-GOLD-RECOVERY-INTEL-MAGNETICS-4-/121728478465?hash=item1c57952d01 I was investigating - wondering whether it was plug-and-play to emulate a floppy interface on the bus or whether it needs a special driver - and preparing to bid and: gone. Ho hum. (It should be 256KB, not the mere 2K implied by the label.) From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 14 13:04:21 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:04:21 -0700 Subject: QBUS boards on eBay checp In-Reply-To: <4F4225FD-CD1A-4828-ADA4-89A70038208C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4F4225FD-CD1A-4828-ADA4-89A70038208C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <55CE2DA5.9020708@bitsavers.org> On 8/14/15 10:45 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I was investigating - wondering whether it was plug-and-play to emulate a floppy interface Not enough logic on there to do that. It would have been a parallel interface to the bubble microcontroller From scaron at umich.edu Fri Aug 14 10:31:52 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:31:52 -0400 Subject: QBUS boards on eBay checp In-Reply-To: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for the tip! He's got some nice stuff and the prices are not awful although I'm pretty well stocked on what's he's mostly selling; 11/23 CPUs; MOS memories and SLUs... I was hoping for RX01 or RX02 interface for $20, heh. There's definitely some good opportunities here if someone wants to build a little micro-11... boards look to be in nice shape. Best, Sean On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 11:02 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Some guy on eBay is selling a ton of QBUS boards, cheap: > > http://www.ebay.com/sch/computer_surpluscheap/m.html > > Includes deals such as 11/23 CPU's _with_ KTF11 and KEF11 for $30, 11/73 > CPU's > for $50, etc, etc. > > Anyone recognize those Motorola memory cards? Do we have documentatio for > them? > > Noel > From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Aug 14 13:15:03 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 20:15:03 +0200 Subject: QBUS boards on eBay checp In-Reply-To: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20150814181503.GC62388@beast.freibergnet.de> Noel Chiappa wrote: > Some guy on eBay is selling a ton of QBUS boards, cheap: > > http://www.ebay.com/sch/computer_surpluscheap/m.html > > Includes deals such as 11/23 CPU's _with_ KTF11 and KEF11 for $30, 11/73 CPU's > for $50, etc, etc. > > Anyone recognize those Motorola memory cards? Do we have documentatio for > them? > > Noel ..Tried to buy one of that cards .. "sorry no international shipping".. :-( Is there one that can relay two cards for me in germany? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From tsg at bonedaddy.net Fri Aug 14 13:24:15 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 14:24:15 -0400 Subject: QBUS boards on eBay checp In-Reply-To: <20150814181503.GC62388@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20150814181503.GC62388@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20150814182414.GX6471@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Hi Holm, If you don't find anyone else I'd be willing to do so for you. Regards, Todd * Holm Tiffe [150814 14:15]: > Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > Some guy on eBay is selling a ton of QBUS boards, cheap: > > > > http://www.ebay.com/sch/computer_surpluscheap/m.html > > > > Includes deals such as 11/23 CPU's _with_ KTF11 and KEF11 for $30, 11/73 CPU's > > for $50, etc, etc. > > > > Anyone recognize those Motorola memory cards? Do we have documentatio for > > them? > > > > Noel > > > ..Tried to buy one of that cards .. "sorry no international shipping".. > :-( > > Is there one that can relay two cards for me in germany? > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Aug 14 13:24:40 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:24:40 -0700 Subject: QBUS boards on eBay checp In-Reply-To: <55CE2DA5.9020708@bitsavers.org> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4F4225FD-CD1A-4828-ADA4-89A70038208C@cs.ubc.ca> <55CE2DA5.9020708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2015-Aug-14, at 11:04 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/14/15 10:45 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> I was investigating - wondering whether it was plug-and-play to emulate a floppy interface > > Not enough logic on there to do that. It would have been a parallel interface to the bubble microcontroller OK, was wondering along those lines, had found the big chip - the D7220 - mentioned as a controller in intel bubble doc but didn't know what sort of interface it presented. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Aug 14 13:28:57 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:28:57 -0700 Subject: QBUS boards on eBay checp In-Reply-To: References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4F4225FD-CD1A-4828-ADA4-89A70038208C@cs.ubc.ca> <55CE2DA5.9020708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2015-Aug-14, at 11:24 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Aug-14, at 11:04 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 8/14/15 10:45 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> I was investigating - wondering whether it was plug-and-play to emulate a floppy interface >> >> Not enough logic on there to do that. It would have been a parallel interface to the bubble microcontroller > > OK, was wondering along those lines, had found the big chip - the D7220 - mentioned as a controller in intel bubble doc but didn't know what sort of interface it presented. Would have been fun to reverse engineer and write a driver if there's no board doc/software available, regardless. The chip docs should be available at least. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 14 13:33:26 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:33:26 -0700 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CE3476.20403@sydex.com> On 08/14/2015 09:27 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > When I look at the cartridge guide without the spindle clamp in > place, it is now centered above the spindle, and at the same distance > from the spindle as my drive that does not have these issues. > > Anybody have any experience like this? Thoughts? There really > isn't much to adjust on these things. Is this a drive that you've had in service for some time, or did you just take possession of the drive? If the latter, I suspect that someone's already tinkered with the drive. The first place that I'd look would be the spindle assembly itself--when you pull the spindle drive pulley, things tend to fall out all over the place. There's a significant preload on the spindle and bearings. The hub clamp itself more or less "floats", and centers itself, so no real issues there unless the clamp itself is damaged. My own worthless .02, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 14 13:56:04 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:56:04 -0700 Subject: QBUS boards on eBay checp In-Reply-To: References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4F4225FD-CD1A-4828-ADA4-89A70038208C@cs.ubc.ca> <55CE2DA5.9020708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55CE39C4.2000907@bitsavers.org> On 8/14/15 11:28 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Aug-14, at 11:24 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2015-Aug-14, at 11:04 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> On 8/14/15 10:45 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> >>>> I was investigating - wondering whether it was plug-and-play to emulate a floppy interface >>> >>> Not enough logic on there to do that. It would have been a parallel interface to the bubble microcontroller >> >> OK, was wondering along those lines, had found the big chip - the D7220 - mentioned as a controller in intel bubble doc but didn't know what sort of interface it presented. > > Would have been fun to reverse engineer and write a driver if there's no board doc/software available, regardless. > The chip docs should be available at least. > The docs should be on bitsavers. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 14 14:00:38 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 12:00:38 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55C834CA.10006@sydex.com> References: <8850E3DA628144899BA9BA0DC826469C@workshop> <55C834CA.10006@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55CE3AD6.6060804@bitsavers.org> On 8/9/15 10:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/09/2015 09:54 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: >> Well, Chuck, thanks a bunch, this is very useful and quite difficult >> code to write from scratch. How does one compile for DOS by the way >> (I have to admit I am too young to have ever tried), and get a copy >> of MSC 8.00C. Is the DOS compiler buried in some part of Visual >> Studio? I have some old versions dating back from Windows 95 time, >> when it was called Visual Studio 97... Marc > > I believe it was tossed into Visual Studio 97 as a separate CD (not part of the usual packet of Visual Basic, 32-bit C++, Visual J++, etc.) So you probably already have it. last 16 bit compiler is visual C++ 1.52c also ran across MASM 8 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=12654 if you need it From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 14 14:01:52 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 12:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I have a Shugart 800-8 with a media centering problem. I know it is > definitely that and not something else (say, electronics, TRK00 > position, etc.), because I can see the "wobble" in the signal coming > from the heads on a 'scope. If all thge disks were formatted in other drives, it could even be one of the other drives that actually has the problem. One of the first tests should be to take a virgin/bulk erased disk, format it, and WITHOUT unclamping, write and read it. If it reads/writes fine, then the clamping MIGHT be out of alignment, but is at least stable in its [wrong?] position. If you still get wobbles, then something is loose and unstable in its position. Then unclamp, remove, reinsert, reclamp, and try it. And, how well do disks formatted in this drive do on other drives? From lists at loomcom.com Fri Aug 14 14:28:27 2015 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 14:28:27 -0500 Subject: Still seeking 3B2 information In-Reply-To: <55CA0874.8080005@oryx.us> References: <20150119194516.GA9021@loomcom.com> <55CA0874.8080005@oryx.us> Message-ID: <20150814192827.GA4521@loomcom.com> * On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 09:36:36AM -0500, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Hello Seth, > > We were having a 3B2 discussion on the Sun Rescue list, and that got > me to thinking about your emulator project. > > Can you share a status update? Hi Jerry, Sadly, it's been stalled for quite some time now. Current status is pretty much the same as it was in January. The simulator can boot the 3B2/400 firmware, pass diagnostics, and read directories from virtual floppy disks. Unfortunately, it can't get much beyond that -- trying to boot the UNIX kernel still fails miserably. I'd hoped to have much better progress to share, but Real Life intervened by throwing me several major curve-balls in the first half of this year, and it's only now that things are really starting to settle down. Even so, two things are still really holding me up: 1. Lack of good documentation for the system design of the 3B2 2. Lack of access to a physical 3B2 I hope to get #2 sorted out soon(-ish), so I can run a 3B2 with a logic analyzer attached. There's still some mystery surrounding some system timers and interrupts that I need to figure out before I can really make progress. I'd still love to get #1 sorted out, too. There are some 3B2 internals docs on their way to Al Kossow that I hope will get scanned in the next few months, I think that would help greatly. Best Wishes, -Seth From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 14 14:58:07 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 14:58:07 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> On 8/14/2015 2:01 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 14 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> I have a Shugart 800-8 with a media centering problem. I know it is >> definitely that and not something else (say, electronics, TRK00 >> position, etc.), because I can see the "wobble" in the signal coming >> from the heads on a 'scope. > > If all the disks were formatted in other drives, it could even be one > of the other drives that actually has the problem. Have done both. No, the other drive is just fine. Have formatted with this one and with others. The results are the same, depending upon my luck/skill in getting the media to center when I insert into this drive. > > One of the first tests should be to take a virgin/bulk erased disk, > format it, and WITHOUT unclamping, write and read it. If it > reads/writes fine, then the clamping MIGHT be out of alignment, but is > at least stable in its [wrong?] position. If you still get wobbles, > then something is loose and unstable in its position. Unfortunately, the diagnostic for formatting, and the one for testing are different programs, so no easy way to do that. It isn't an alignment problem per se, anyway. Different insertions result in different results - from perfect and no wobble to lots of wobble. The clamping is not out of alignment. If it were, the results would be more consistent. Besides, the clamping is not really responsible for the alignment. It is a matter of the media relationship to the spindle as the clamping comes down on it. The issue is clearly that the media sometimes doesn't sit onto the spindle properly. I am beginning to suspect that the spindle is too rough, perhaps, and the media hangs up on it as the clamping occurs. > > Then unclamp, remove, reinsert, reclamp, and try it. > > And, how well do disks formatted in this drive do on other drives? > > Sometimes fine, sometimes poorly, depending on the wobble when it was formatted. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Aug 14 13:54:02 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:54:02 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a Lockheed SUE? In-Reply-To: <55CD7236.1090603@bitsavers.org> References: <55CD7236.1090603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B8851BE-710E-477D-ADBC-A08A7A34E4EB@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Aug-13, at 9:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > I turned up some CPU info on it, which I uploaded to bitsavers/lockheed/sue > > Dumps of the programmable parts on the CPU would be nice if anyone has one. So this was interesting, another in the list of 60s/70s minis - hadn't heard of it previously. Are there any known customers/applications that used it? Didn't think I've seen a blinken-light front panel with worse graphics design however. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Aug 14 14:03:03 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 12:03:03 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a Lockheed SUE? In-Reply-To: <4B8851BE-710E-477D-ADBC-A08A7A34E4EB@cs.ubc.ca> References: <55CD7236.1090603@bitsavers.org> <4B8851BE-710E-477D-ADBC-A08A7A34E4EB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <55CE3B67.9070305@jwsss.com> On 8/14/2015 11:54 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Aug-13, at 9:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I turned up some CPU info on it, which I uploaded to bitsavers/lockheed/sue >> >> Dumps of the programmable parts on the CPU would be nice if anyone has one. > > So this was interesting, another in the list of 60s/70s minis - hadn't heard of it previously. > Are there any known customers/applications that used it? > > Didn't think I've seen a blinken-light front panel with worse graphics design however. A friend who worked on CT scanners mentioned that a lot of those systems had the SUE, and more importantly, one had to retain the 14" cartridges as medical data for 7 years. The VA had scanners with the SUE in them when he was trying to get Artronics into that site. I think there were some available, but most got grabbed up in the duty of reading the above archives. Not sure of the dispositions of them after that. thanks Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 14 14:12:48 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 12:12:48 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a Lockheed SUE? In-Reply-To: <4B8851BE-710E-477D-ADBC-A08A7A34E4EB@cs.ubc.ca> References: <55CD7236.1090603@bitsavers.org> <4B8851BE-710E-477D-ADBC-A08A7A34E4EB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <55CE3DB0.800@bitsavers.org> On 8/14/15 11:54 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Are there any known customers/applications that used it? > The BBN PLURIBUS IMP From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 14 14:33:18 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 15:33:18 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a Lockheed SUE? In-Reply-To: <4B8851BE-710E-477D-ADBC-A08A7A34E4EB@cs.ubc.ca> References: <55CD7236.1090603@bitsavers.org> <4B8851BE-710E-477D-ADBC-A08A7A34E4EB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <972A1799-9CE7-4DB7-A065-44D2ED8B1C33@comcast.net> > On Aug 14, 2015, at 2:54 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > On 2015-Aug-13, at 9:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I turned up some CPU info on it, which I uploaded to bitsavers/lockheed/sue >> >> Dumps of the programmable parts on the CPU would be nice if anyone has one. > > > So this was interesting, another in the list of 60s/70s minis - hadn't heard of it previously. > Are there any known customers/applications that used it? I remember one sitting in a corner in the University of Illinois computer science department, but I never saw it in use and never heard of what was done with it. Its claim to fame was user microprogramming. > Didn't think I've seen a blinken-light front panel with worse graphics design however. I thought it?s pretty neat. Touch panel ? you press the bit position digit labels to enter that bit. paul From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 14 15:04:13 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 15:04:13 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CE3476.20403@sydex.com> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE3476.20403@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55CE49BD.5050500@charter.net> On 8/14/2015 1:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/14/2015 09:27 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> When I look at the cartridge guide without the spindle clamp in >> place, it is now centered above the spindle, and at the same distance >> from the spindle as my drive that does not have these issues. >> >> Anybody have any experience like this? Thoughts? There really >> isn't much to adjust on these things. > > Is this a drive that you've had in service for some time, or did you > just take possession of the drive? > This drive is a new recruit. > If the latter, I suspect that someone's already tinkered with the drive. Really, the only sign of that was the spring on the ejection assembly being a bit stretched. No signs anywhere else. > The first place that I'd look would be the spindle assembly > itself--when you pull the spindle drive pulley, things tend to fall out > all over the place. There's a significant preload on the spindle and > bearings. The hub clamp itself more or less "floats", and centers > itself, so no real issues there unless the clamp itself is damaged. The spindle itself is solid as a rock. No wobble at all (the 1/2 track wobble I see would be visible to the naked eye). No vertical play either. Also, if it were the spindle, I doubt that I could ever get it to work and exchange floppies with the other drive, and yet, with the drive on its side (EITHER side) to maximize chances, I can usually get it to behave. Different insertions result in different results - from perfect and no wobble to lots of wobble, all depending upon how I close the door. The issue is clearly that the media sometimes doesn't sit onto the spindle properly. I am beginning to suspect that the spindle is too rough, perhaps, and the media hangs up on it as the clamping occurs. Plan to polish it up some on the conical part (that the media should be slipping over, but does not clamp to) to see if that helps. > > My own worthless .02, > Chuck > > Not worthless at all. Thanks. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 14 15:01:59 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 20:01:59 +0000 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> , <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> Message-ID: > The clamping is not out of alignment. If it were, the results would be > more consistent. Besides, the clamping is not really responsible for > the alignment. It is a matter of the media relationship to the spindle > as the clamping comes down on it. The fact that it sometimes centres properly suggests to me that it is not excessive runout on the spindle, but none the less the first thing I would do is remove the clamp arm and check the inside surface of the spindle with a dial guage while turning it by hand. Then probably take out the spindle and its bearings and check all the parts are there (compare with the service manual or the good drive). If something there is coming out of place it will cause big problems. Take the centring cone apart (there are lots of bits and at least 2 springs) and again check for anything missing. Make sure the spring are in the right places, if you swap them over the cone will not expand properly and will thus not centre the disk properly. Now look for wear on the 2 main plastic bits of the centring cone. If the inner part sticks, again it will not centre correctly. If there's wear on the outside of the larger part, the disk may not run true. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 14 15:30:45 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 13:30:45 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55CE3AD6.6060804@bitsavers.org> References: <8850E3DA628144899BA9BA0DC826469C@workshop> <55C834CA.10006@sydex.com> <55CE3AD6.6060804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55CE4FF5.1070605@sydex.com> On 08/14/2015 12:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > last 16 bit compiler is visual C++ 1.52c > > also ran across MASM 8 > > https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=12654 > > if you need it > Schizophrenic MS labeling. The C++ suite is 1.52c, but the compiler identifies itself as 8.00c. Crazy. --Chuck From other at oryx.us Fri Aug 14 16:13:33 2015 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 16:13:33 -0500 Subject: Still seeking 3B2 information In-Reply-To: <20150814192827.GA4521@loomcom.com> References: <20150119194516.GA9021@loomcom.com> <55CA0874.8080005@oryx.us> <20150814192827.GA4521@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <55CE59FD.7010500@oryx.us> Hello Seth, Thanks for the update. I wish I could assist further, but aside from shell scripting, I'm not a developer, and aside from my "ATT System Administrator" classroom book, I really don't have any additional documentation. That said, I will close with a thank you for your work on this and progress you have made so far to date. I think that it is an exciting project, and honestly, I really never expected to see a 3B2 emulator. I hope the items provided by Al Kossow is what you need to move this project forward. Jerry Kemp On 08/14/15 02:28 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > * On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 09:36:36AM -0500, Jerry Kemp wrote: >> Hello Seth, >> >> We were having a 3B2 discussion on the Sun Rescue list, and that got >> me to thinking about your emulator project. >> >> Can you share a status update? > > Hi Jerry, > > Sadly, it's been stalled for quite some time now. Current status is > pretty much the same as it was in January. The simulator can boot the > 3B2/400 firmware, pass diagnostics, and read directories from virtual > floppy disks. Unfortunately, it can't get much beyond that -- trying > to boot the UNIX kernel still fails miserably. > > I'd hoped to have much better progress to share, but Real Life > intervened by throwing me several major curve-balls in the first half > of this year, and it's only now that things are really starting to > settle down. > > Even so, two things are still really holding me up: > > 1. Lack of good documentation for the system design of the 3B2 > > 2. Lack of access to a physical 3B2 > > I hope to get #2 sorted out soon(-ish), so I can run a 3B2 with a > logic analyzer attached. There's still some mystery surrounding some > system timers and interrupts that I need to figure out before I can > really make progress. > > I'd still love to get #1 sorted out, too. There are some 3B2 internals > docs on their way to Al Kossow that I hope will get scanned in the > next few months, I think that would help greatly. > > Best Wishes, > > -Seth > From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 17:24:35 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 18:24:35 -0400 Subject: Still seeking 3B2 information In-Reply-To: <55CE59FD.7010500@oryx.us> References: <20150119194516.GA9021@loomcom.com> <55CA0874.8080005@oryx.us> <20150814192827.GA4521@loomcom.com> <55CE59FD.7010500@oryx.us> Message-ID: MARCH has (or once had) a lot of 3B2 hardware and documentation at InfoAge in NJ. Maybe Evan is reading this thread or you can ask him via midatlanticretro.org. I recall at least one complete system donated years ago. On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 5:13 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Hello Seth, > > Thanks for the update. > > I wish I could assist further, but aside from shell scripting, I'm not a > developer, and aside from my "ATT System Administrator" classroom book, I > really don't have any additional documentation. > > That said, I will close with a thank you for your work on this and progress > you have made so far to date. I think that it is an exciting project, and > honestly, I really never expected to see a 3B2 emulator. I hope the items > provided by Al Kossow is what you need to move this project forward. > > Jerry Kemp > > > On 08/14/15 02:28 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >> >> * On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 09:36:36AM -0500, Jerry Kemp >> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Seth, >>> >>> We were having a 3B2 discussion on the Sun Rescue list, and that got >>> me to thinking about your emulator project. >>> >>> Can you share a status update? >> >> >> Hi Jerry, >> >> Sadly, it's been stalled for quite some time now. Current status is >> pretty much the same as it was in January. The simulator can boot the >> 3B2/400 firmware, pass diagnostics, and read directories from virtual >> floppy disks. Unfortunately, it can't get much beyond that -- trying >> to boot the UNIX kernel still fails miserably. >> >> I'd hoped to have much better progress to share, but Real Life >> intervened by throwing me several major curve-balls in the first half >> of this year, and it's only now that things are really starting to >> settle down. >> >> Even so, two things are still really holding me up: >> >> 1. Lack of good documentation for the system design of the 3B2 >> >> 2. Lack of access to a physical 3B2 >> >> I hope to get #2 sorted out soon(-ish), so I can run a 3B2 with a >> logic analyzer attached. There's still some mystery surrounding some >> system timers and interrupts that I need to figure out before I can >> really make progress. >> >> I'd still love to get #1 sorted out, too. There are some 3B2 internals >> docs on their way to Al Kossow that I hope will get scanned in the >> next few months, I think that would help greatly. >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> -Seth >> > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 14 18:58:32 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 18:58:32 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> On 8/14/2015 3:01 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> The clamping is not out of alignment. If it were, the results would be >> more consistent. Besides, the clamping is not really responsible for >> the alignment. It is a matter of the media relationship to the spindle >> as the clamping comes down on it. It can indeed. If, in that process, the media is sometimes pushed a bit forward, back, or to one side or the other, then the media relationship to the spindle IS affected - particularly in this case, as the drive is upside down from the normal orientation, where the spindle is underneath the media, and gravity cannot help it find its way to the center. > > The fact that it sometimes centres properly suggests to me that it is not > excessive runout on the spindle, but none the less the first thing I would > do is remove the clamp arm and check the inside surface of the spindle > with a dial guage while turning it by hand. Then probably take out the > spindle and its bearings and check all the parts are there (compare with > the service manual or the good drive). If something there is coming out > of place it will cause big problems. There is no play in the spindle at all. Certainly not 1/2 track worth. Can't wiggle it at all, no visible wobble, etc. > > Take the centring cone apart (there are lots of bits and at least 2 > springs) and again check for anything missing. Make sure the spring > are in the right places, if you swap them over the cone will not expand > properly and will thus not centre the disk properly. > The centering cone/clamp has just one continuous spring, all the way around. And, there is no point: I did mention: I swapped those plastic centering cones / clamps with the other drive, and it made no difference to either drive. > Now look for wear on the 2 main plastic bits of the centring cone. If > the inner part sticks, again it will not centre correctly. If there's wear > on the outside of the larger part, the disk may not run true. See the above. > > -tony > Polishing the cone on the spindle helped, but just a small amount. I did also discover that the head load armature assembly was somewhat canted, and could, barely, interfere with the head pressure on the inner tracks. Corrected that - again, not much help with the other problems. And when this thing is off center, it affects all the tracks, of course. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 14 20:08:56 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 18:08:56 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55CE4FF5.1070605@sydex.com> References: <8850E3DA628144899BA9BA0DC826469C@workshop> <55C834CA.10006@sydex.com> <55CE3AD6.6060804@bitsavers.org> <55CE4FF5.1070605@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55CE9128.8020403@bitsavers.org> On 8/14/15 1:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Schizophrenic MS labeling. The C++ suite is 1.52c, but the compiler > identifies itself as 8.00c. Crazy. > yea.. There is a page on it on Wikipedia. Visual C++ came out after MS C 7.0 which was Windows 3.1 time frame. Just staring at all this because I'm scanning a redundant win 3.1 /c++ 7.0 dev kit doc set we have right now. If someone has a spare win 3.1 driver dev kit doc set, I'd like to do that as well, but we only have one of them and I'm not going to do it a page at a time. From useddec at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 20:35:25 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 20:35:25 -0500 Subject: 8-E(s) in Illinois Message-ID: While pulling parts for another list member my workers found another 8-E. I thought I had 2 in the area, but who knows. Anyway, if you are going to Chicago (VCF) I'm almost 3 hours south of there, but I have several list members who plan on stopping by before or after and might be willing to deliver or get it closer for the right price. I had already planned on selling one, so now I actually have 2. Both are 8-E boxes, H724(I think) power supply, a single omnibus backplane, a switch panel, silkscreen, one has white bezel. They do not have :keys, cover (or lid), slides. I can configure the boards to anything within reason, but I suggest you go with the mos board or kit available on the list. Core is getting expensive. Please contact me off list with questions. Thanks, Paul From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Aug 14 21:01:54 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 22:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WANTED: HP 3000 Message-ID: I worked on HP 3000 systems in the late '80s, and would like to find one for my collection. A series 42 would be nice, but a series 37 or micro XE would do. Any leads? I'm already aware of the one on Epay in Florida that's been sitting at $1,725 for the past year. I'm in central PA. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 14 21:28:14 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 19:28:14 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55CE9128.8020403@bitsavers.org> References: <8850E3DA628144899BA9BA0DC826469C@workshop> <55C834CA.10006@sydex.com> <55CE3AD6.6060804@bitsavers.org> <55CE4FF5.1070605@sydex.com> <55CE9128.8020403@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55CEA3BE.8090400@sydex.com> On 08/14/2015 06:08 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > yea.. There is a page on it on Wikipedia. Visual C++ came out after > MS C 7.0 which was Windows 3.1 time frame. > > Just staring at all this because I'm scanning a redundant win 3.1 > /c++ 7.0 dev kit doc set we have right now. > > If someone has a spare win 3.1 driver dev kit doc set, I'd like to > do that as well, but we only have one of them and I'm not going to do > it a page at a time. I've got the Windows 3.1 DDK in big box/piles of floppies version. But isn't the documentation (and the rest) part of the MSDN collection? Seems to me that it is. Do you want me to check my old MSDN CDs? --Chuck From afahimi at fahimienterprises.com Fri Aug 14 15:43:59 2015 From: afahimi at fahimienterprises.com (Ali Fahimi M.D.) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 13:43:59 -0700 Subject: Slightly OT: XT-IDE Message-ID: <004801d0d6d1$f37def10$da79cd30$@com> Hello All, I've been trying to help a friend of mine get his XT-IDE (DP ver 2 board) up and running to boot a HDD in an IBM 8525. It is a bit difficult since he is across the country but we have made progress. However, we still cannot get the system to boot. The card is recognized by the system, the boot menu comes up. At first we could not get it to find a HDD. However, after a bunch of trial error we were able to get the drive to be recognized. We booted w/ a DOS 6.22 disk, ran fdisk /mbr, and everything seems to have completed but after reboot the HDD will not format. Checking with fdisk shown no partition info at all. The XT-IDE is the only card in the system, booting from floppies is fine with no issues. We also have gotten a 1h error at times. Finally, to rule out the HDD as an issue we tried to boot using the serial connection. The card is seen by the server but when we attempt to boot again we get a 1h error. Config info as follows: ide_xt.bin: v2.0.0B3 (2013-03-02) Full Operating Mode: No IDE Controllers: 1 Power Management: Disabled Device Type: XTIDE r1 Base Address: 300h Control Block: 308h Master & Slave Settings: Block Mode Transfers: Yes CHS Translation: Auto Internal Write Cache: Disabled User Specified CHS/LBA: No Boot Settings: Display Mode: Default Number of Floppy Dr.: Auto Scan for Serial Drives: No Default Boot Drive: 80h The BIOS chip is an amtel http://www.atmel.com/images/doc0270.pdf EEPROM type: 2864 SDP: Enable Page Size: 1 byte EEPROM Address: D000h Generate Checksum byte: Yes At this point I am stumped. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. -Ali From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 14 20:20:47 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 18:20:47 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a Lockheed SUE? In-Reply-To: <4B8851BE-710E-477D-ADBC-A08A7A34E4EB@cs.ubc.ca> References: <55CD7236.1090603@bitsavers.org> <4B8851BE-710E-477D-ADBC-A08A7A34E4EB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <55CE93EF.9040605@bitsavers.org> The other mini I've gone down too deep a rathole on is the Pertec Computer Corp XL40 (univac 1900) which was a third generation key-tape system. Pertec bought Computer Machinery Corporation, who appears to have made their own PDP-8 clone (Bob Rosenbloom has one) http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/cmc3.jpg for the first generation, then they used PDP-11's for the 1800, then microcoding their own 16 bit computer for the XL/40. What I have been able to dig up is under pertec/dataEntry. I'm still trying to figure out what the instruction set actually was. On 8/14/15 11:54 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Aug-13, at 9:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I turned up some CPU info on it, which I uploaded to bitsavers/lockheed/sue >> >> Dumps of the programmable parts on the CPU would be nice if anyone has one. > > > So this was interesting, another in the list of 60s/70s minis - hadn't heard of it previously. > Are there any known customers/applications that used it? > > Didn't think I've seen a blinken-light front panel with worse graphics design however. > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 14 20:35:12 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 18:35:12 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a Lockheed SUE? In-Reply-To: <55CE93EF.9040605@bitsavers.org> References: <55CD7236.1090603@bitsavers.org> <4B8851BE-710E-477D-ADBC-A08A7A34E4EB@cs.ubc.ca> <55CE93EF.9040605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55CE9750.3040200@bitsavers.org> On 8/14/15 6:20 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > who > appears to have made their own PDP-8 clone (Bob Rosenbloom has one) http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/cmc3.jpg oops, it's actually a Digital Computer Controls DCC-112 From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Aug 14 22:34:04 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 23:34:04 -0400 Subject: WANTED: HP 3000 Message-ID: <55965.1cbc00b.43000d2c@aol.com> and I am looking for west coast hp -3000's! Mike! Due to freight az or cal... for a 3000/37 or micro gear but would pay the big freight if it was a old series II or II or cx or precx or series 1 I spent most of my time on series 2 and 3 machines and although I do not have one currently I DO have the additional plug in front panel that shows ALL registers The CEs would use it in dire times.... actually one interface card is for CX and one card for hooking into a series II or Series III.. I am going to bring up the 37 to use Did not know you had 3000 background also we will have to talk more! Ed# www.smecc.org In a message dated 8/14/2015 7:02:05 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us writes: I worked on HP 3000 systems in the late '80s, and would like to find one for my collection. A series 42 would be nice, but a series 37 or micro XE would do. Any leads? I'm already aware of the one on Epay in Florida that's been sitting at $1,725 for the past year. I'm in central PA. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 14 22:40:00 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 20:40:00 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <55CEA3BE.8090400@sydex.com> References: <8850E3DA628144899BA9BA0DC826469C@workshop> <55C834CA.10006@sydex.com> <55CE3AD6.6060804@bitsavers.org> <55CE4FF5.1070605@sydex.com> <55CE9128.8020403@bitsavers.org> <55CEA3BE.8090400@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55CEB490.7080009@bitsavers.org> On 8/14/15 7:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got the Windows 3.1 DDK in big box/piles of floppies version. But isn't the documentation (and the rest) part of the MSDN collection? yea, forgot about that. I have pretty much the complete set back to the early 90's. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Aug 14 23:19:38 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 00:19:38 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a Lockheed SUE? Message-ID: <55ecc.7d6aeb20.430017da@aol.com> think dcc made a fake dg nova also!? In a message dated 8/14/2015 8:24:14 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, aek at bitsavers.org writes: oops, it's actually a Digital Computer Controls DCC-112 From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Aug 14 23:19:38 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 00:19:38 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a Lockheed SUE? Message-ID: <55ecc.7d6aeb20.430017da@aol.com> think dcc made a fake dg nova also!? In a message dated 8/14/2015 8:24:14 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, aek at bitsavers.org writes: oops, it's actually a Digital Computer Controls DCC-112 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 14 23:56:11 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 04:56:11 +0000 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> , <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> Message-ID: >There is no play in the spindle at all. Certainly not 1/2 track worth. > Can't wiggle it at all, no visible wobble, etc. Not necessarily play. Anyway, half a track width is just over 10 thou and I am not sure I could notice that amount of runout by eye. Also I have learnt by bitter experience to check everything, otherwise you discover (far too late) that the thing that was 'obviously right and didn't need checking' was the problem > The centering cone/clamp has just one continuous spring, all the way around. Are you sure. The cone is in 2 parts. Normally there is a spring between them inside the cone and a (stronger) spring between the cone and the clamp arm. > And, there is no point: I did mention: I swapped those plastic > centering cones / clamps with the other drive, and it made no difference > to either drive. What exactly did you swap? The cone and internal spring? The obvious spring on top of it and all the washers? The clamp arm itself (check for burrs round the hole where the cone spindle goes)? If the cone is alright then it pretty much has to be the spindle itself. Are you sure the spindle bearings are correctly fitted with all the parts shown in the service manual? -tony From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 14 23:58:31 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 21:58:31 -0700 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net>, , <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net>, , <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> Message-ID: It could be an indication of pot metal failure. I had one drive that the spindle from the driven side was clearly swelling. I replaced it from a spare parts drive. What happens is that the metal has oxidation at grain boundaries. It is said that it is caused by small amounts of contaminating metals in the mostly zinc pot metal. Aluminum has been said to be one of the problem sources. Dwight From pfriedr at gainbroadband.com Sat Aug 15 00:54:04 2015 From: pfriedr at gainbroadband.com (pfriedr at gainbroadband.com) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 22:54:04 -0700 Subject: DEC VAX parts and 11/34 System for sale Message-ID: <1b65918d00f43406faf45568f82ba0d8@pfriedr@gainbroadband.com> I still have a bunch of vintage computer parts I'd like to find homes for. If you are interested either in components for a DEC VAX or in a PDP 11/34 embedded system complete with card cage, please visit my website for details and contact information. http://www.hpfriedrichs.com/hpfparts/hpfparts.htm I will be posting more items when these have been sold. Regards, Pete AC7ZL From lproven at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 06:03:15 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 13:03:15 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?In_Realtime=3A_Saving_25=2C000_Manuals_=E2=80=94_August_15=2C_20?= =?UTF-8?Q?15?= Message-ID: http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 Apologies if this is old news... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Aug 15 06:32:55 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 07:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: In Realtime: Saving 25,000 Manuals Message-ID: <20150815113255.1EAE018C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Liam Proven > Apologies if this is old news... Is this Manuals Plus? They said at the start of the year that they were going to close, and I bought a whole bunch of stuff, but then things seemed to go quiet. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 06:54:49 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 07:54:49 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_In_Realtime=3A_Saving_25=2C000_Manuals_=E2=80=94_August_15?= =?UTF-8?Q?=2C_2015?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was twittering Jason about it yesterday. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Aug 15, 2015 7:03 AM, "Liam Proven" wrote: > http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 > > Apologies if this is old news... > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) > From lproven at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 08:22:47 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 15:22:47 +0200 Subject: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System In-Reply-To: References: <55C1AB3A.3050501@shiresoft.com> <20150810195512.GA26463@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: On 10 August 2015 at 22:39, Eric Christopherson wrote: > He corrects that in the video itself :) Indeed so. Just watched it through for a second time, actually. Great fun and I too am jealous. :-D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From steerex at ccvn.com Sat Aug 15 07:35:40 2015 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 08:35:40 -0400 Subject: WANTED: HP 3000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55CF321C.1080707@ccvn.com> Mike, I have a complete micro/37 that I'd be willing to part with. It was last booted about 2 years ago when another list member was trying to his a system running. Is is mounted in one of the short / narrow HP racks with 3x670H HPIB drives. I think the total disk size is about 1 Gb. That seems like a ton for a system that small. I also have a HPIB 7980 front loading tape drive, that I would include in the deal. AND... I have the original 9-track system tapes (FOS), some spare NOS tapes (let me know how many you'd like), the original MPE documents on CD, and I could probably dig up some MPE paper documentation as well. I am in western NC but could be coaxed into meeting you somewhere closer (possibly southern Virginia). I'll take an offer but, be warned, I'm not giving it away. Thanks, Steve Robertson steerex at ccvn.com On 8/14/2015 10:01 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > I worked on HP 3000 systems in the late '80s, and would like to find > one for my collection. A series 42 would be nice, but a series 37 or > micro XE would do. Any leads? I'm already aware of the one on Epay in > Florida that's been sitting at $1,725 for the past year. > > I'm in central PA. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > -- Steve Robertson steerex at ccvn.com From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 15 07:46:42 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 05:46:42 -0700 Subject: WANTED: HP 3000 In-Reply-To: <55CF321C.1080707@ccvn.com> References: <55CF321C.1080707@ccvn.com> Message-ID: <55CF34B2.5000703@bitsavers.org> On 8/15/15 5:35 AM, Steve Robertson wrote: > Mike, > > I have the original 9-track system > tapes (FOS), some spare NOS tapes have you imaged all of these tapes? From steerex at ccvn.com Sat Aug 15 07:56:11 2015 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 08:56:11 -0400 Subject: WANTED: HP 3000 In-Reply-To: <55CF34B2.5000703@bitsavers.org> References: <55CF321C.1080707@ccvn.com> <55CF34B2.5000703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55CF36EB.3040008@ccvn.com> Al, I shared the images with J. David Bryan. One of the tapes had a bad spot on it so, there was one file that was unrecoverable. I think he was able to recreate a complete FOS tape. My images are on a system that is currently in storage so, it is not too easy for me to get my hands on them. I also have all the original sub-system tapes. AFIRC they were also imaged. If David can't provide images and they aren't available anywhere else, I try to make them available. See ya, Steve Robertson steerex at ccvn.com On 8/15/2015 8:46 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/15/15 5:35 AM, Steve Robertson wrote: >> Mike, >> >> I have the original 9-track system >> tapes (FOS), some spare NOS tapes > > have you imaged all of these tapes? > > > -- Steve Robertson steerex at ccvn.com From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 15 08:13:36 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 06:13:36 -0700 Subject: WANTED: HP 3000 In-Reply-To: <55CF36EB.3040008@ccvn.com> References: <55CF321C.1080707@ccvn.com> <55CF34B2.5000703@bitsavers.org> <55CF36EB.3040008@ccvn.com> Message-ID: <55CF3B00.2070900@bitsavers.org> On 8/15/15 5:56 AM, Steve Robertson wrote: > Al, > > I shared the images with J. David Bryan. One of the tapes > had a bad spot on it so, there was one file that was > unrecoverable. Ah, good. I was hoping he got copies of them. From jason at textfiles.com Sat Aug 15 08:38:44 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 09:38:44 -0400 Subject: In Realtime: Saving 25,000 Manuals In-Reply-To: <20150815113255.1EAE018C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150815113255.1EAE018C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: This is Manuals Plus. I've been in conversation with them for a lot of the year, talking about the where and when for the final closedown. This is the final closedown, and they're going to start throwing the inventory out Monday. The project I'm doing is to go onsite on Monday and Tuesday and take the unique items in their warehouse (it's estimated at 21,000 but I was being careful) and put it into boxes, and then put those boxes into a nearby storage unit while the next steps are considered/taken. I drove down to Baltimore and back yesterday (Friday), a 500 mile trip, to ensure I could show I was a real human being and going to do this.It is going to be a very busy Monday and Tuesday. On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 7:32 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Liam Proven > > > Apologies if this is old news... > > Is this Manuals Plus? They said at the start of the year that they were > going > to close, and I bought a whole bunch of stuff, but then things seemed to go > quiet. > > Noel > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 15 09:24:24 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 07:24:24 -0700 Subject: QIC-24 data analysis Message-ID: <55CF4B98.3020604@bitsavers.org> This looks like fun.. http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2015/08/qic-24-tape-data-block-format-decoding.html From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 15 10:33:25 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 10:33:25 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> On 8/14/2015 11:56 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> There is no play in the spindle at all. Certainly not 1/2 track worth. >> Can't wiggle it at all, no visible wobble, etc. > > Not necessarily play. Anyway, half a track width is just over 10 thou > and I am not sure I could notice that amount of runout by eye. Also > I have learnt by bitter experience to check everything, otherwise you > discover (far too late) that the thing that was 'obviously right and > didn't need checking' was the problem > Except that when the media is aligned to the spindle correctly, the drive performs flawlessly, including exchange with another drive. If the spindle itself were wobbling so much as to cause the other symptoms, I don't see how it could ever work right. > >> The centering cone/clamp has just one continuous spring, all the way around. > > Are you sure. The cone is in 2 parts. Normally there is a spring between them > inside the cone and a (stronger) spring between the cone and the clamp arm. > On these drives, the centering cone (i.e., that which centers the media on the spindle) is actually part of the spindle. The part that comes down onto it is a set of nylon fingers, all one piece, with a spring surrounding them. They call it the "Spindle Hub Clamp". All this latter part does is clamp the media to the spindle. The SA-800 doc makes it hard to see what is going on, but it is at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/shugart/SA8xx/50576-4_SA800_Parts_May77.pdf Page 98, parts 8 (spring), 9 (Hub Clamp assembly) and 11 the plate that screws onto the clamp (part 10) and holds it all in place. I swapped that entire assembly. Unfortunately, there is no detail on part 9. It consists of: A surrounding black plastic piece. The nylon fingers and the flat part they are attached to (all one piece) A black pastic washer A screw, washer and nylock lock nut that holds it all together. Then there is a spring above that, held in place by the hub clamp plate (part 11). As the clamp arm comes down, the nylon fingers splay apart over the centering cone part of the spindle, and finally clamp the media down on the flat part of spindle. >> And, there is no point: I did mention: I swapped those plastic >> centering cones / clamps with the other drive, and it made no difference >> to either drive. > > What exactly did you swap? The cone and internal spring? The obvious spring > on top of it and all the washers? The clamp arm itself (check for burrs round > the hole where the cone spindle goes)? The entire assembly that sits over the hole in the clamping arm. I did indeed check the hole in the clamp arm when I aligned the entire clamp assembly (transverse and up and down) to match the other drive. When I first got the drive, that was closer to the spindle that the other drive, and not really well centered. I did not swap the clamp arm itself (the part that attaches to the door, and fits into holes via pins near the back of the drive. If that is itself warped (hard to see how, it is cast, and has lots of support fillets so it isn't very bendable) or out of dimension somehow, then I probably could not fix it anyway. > > If the cone is alright then it pretty much has to be the spindle itself. Are you > sure the spindle bearings are correctly fitted with all the parts shown in the > service manual? > Haven't taken the spindle apart. (Page 6, parts 2 through 10). Not sure I would want to - if it is that worn somewhere, requiring changing out its bearing or the like, then for me the case is probably hopeless. > -tony > My gut feeling about this remains that something interferes with the media centering itself on the cone of the spindle before it gets clamped down. What I am really looking for is someone who had a drive with similar behavior that can say "hey, I had that too, and it was ......". JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 15 10:37:29 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 10:37:29 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CF5CB9.9020807@charter.net> Certainly this thing is old enough. But I don't see how it would ever work if that were the case. When the media is on center, it works flawlessly, including interchange with another drive. One thing I am going to try today is to manually center the media with the AC power disconnected (not spinning), and then mount the clamp and clamp it to see if it works consistently when I do that. I think it will, and if so, then it would eliminate all of the sorts of suggestions I have seen from folks so far. On 8/14/2015 11:58 PM, dwight wrote: > It could be an indication of pot metal failure. > I had one drive that the spindle from the driven side was clearly > swelling. I replaced it from a spare parts drive. > What happens is that the metal has oxidation at grain boundaries. > It is said that it is caused by small amounts of contaminating > metals in the mostly zinc pot metal. > Aluminum has been said to be one of the problem sources. > Dwight > > > From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 10:55:46 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 17:55:46 +0200 Subject: More DEC boards Message-ID: Hello Paul, I sent you an email, not sure if you received it, maybe antispam? Thanks Andrea From useddec at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 11:11:58 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 11:11:58 -0500 Subject: More DEC boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: no, just a lot of emails, and a list member is coming Monday with a 24 or 28 foot truck he wants to fill. On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 10:55 AM, shadoooo wrote: > Hello Paul, > I sent you an email, not sure if you received it, maybe antispam? > Thanks > Andrea > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sat Aug 15 11:18:10 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 12:18:10 -0400 Subject: Analog to Digital Converter Message-ID: <55CF6642.3060709@comcast.net> I have a number of laboratory instruments that are from the 1990 time frame. They produce digital data that is the digitized signal from a detector, the data can be from 512 to 65K samples long. The ADC used in these instruments is a 16bit 100ksample/sec design. The ADC is in a 3 by 4 inch metal box with a row of pins on each long edge. I think some of them are failing because I get the full 16 bit resolution from one machine, but not the others. This was determined by taking the digital samples and sorting the values and computing the increments between the adjacent values. In some cases the output looked like 14 bit resolution and in one case 6 bit resolution. Does anyone have any experience with technology? Who was the manufacturer? (There is no id on the outside) What is inside the box? Is it a hybrid circuit? Doug From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sat Aug 15 11:20:13 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 12:20:13 -0400 Subject: Analog to Digital Converter Message-ID: <55CF66BD.3030102@comcast.net> I have a number of laboratory instruments that are from the 1990 time frame. They produce digital data that is the digitized signal from a detector, the data can be from 512 to 65K samples long. The ADC used in these instruments is a 16bit 100ksample/sec design. The ADC is in a 3 by 4 inch metal box with a row of pins on each long edge. I think some of them are failing because I get the full 16 bit resolution from one machine, but not the others. This was determined by taking the digital samples and sorting the values and computing the increments between the adjacent values. In some cases the output looked like 14 bit resolution and in one case 6 bit resolution. Does anyone have any experience with this ADC technology? Who was the manufacturer? (There is no id on the outside) What is inside the box? Is it a hybrid circuit? Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 15 11:51:46 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 16:51:46 +0000 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> , <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> Message-ID: > Except that when the media is aligned to the spindle correctly, the > drive performs flawlessly, including exchange with another drive. If > the spindle itself were wobbling so much as to cause the other symptoms, > I don't see how it could ever work right. > On these drives, the centering cone (i.e., that which centers the media > on the spindle) is actually part of the spindle. The part that comes > down onto it is a set of nylon fingers, all one piece, with a spring > surrounding them. They call it the "Spindle Hub Clamp". All this > latter part does is clamp the media to the spindle. The SA-800 doc > makes it hard to see what is going on, but it is at In every 8" (and 5.25") drive that I've seen the spindle (the bit driven, maybe indirectly, by the motor) has a female cone on the end. There is then the clamping cone, often plastic which fits into it through the hole in the disk. That plastic part may be shown as one piece in the service manual as individual parts are not available as spares, but most of the time it's actually 2 bits with a spring inside. > Haven't taken the spindle apart. (Page 6, parts 2 through 10). Not > sure I would want to - if it is that worn somewhere, requiring changing > out its bearing or the like, then for me the case is probably hopeless. If it's not the clamping cone then it pretty much has to be the spindle. A comment about pot metal got me thinking. If the cone has swollen due to oxidation of one component of the pot metal, it may be that the plastic cone is compressed too far too early and the media slips out of alignment. I would inspect the metal part of the spindle very carefully. I would check for excessive runout of the conical section. I would look for damage (burrs, etc). Do you have mechanical measuring tools (callipers, etc)? The ball races are most likely standard parts and can be obtained. Other parts may have to be made. > My gut feeling about this remains that something interferes with the > media centering itself on the cone of the spindle before it gets clamped > down. My feeling is similar, that the clamping cone allows the media to slip about before it is finally clamped so that sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't > What I am really looking for is someone who had a drive with similar > behavior that can say "hey, I had that too, and it was ......". Firstly I think it's a long shot that somebody else will have had this and secondly even if they have had the same symptoms it might be due to a different cause. Better to actually work out what is wrong with _your_ drive (sorry, but I have never gone along with the idea of stock faults and cures [1]). [1] May be OK if you have a lot of similar units to repair, say you are a repair shop and you keep seeing the same model of TV come in. Stock faults may then let you get 90% off the bench very quickly. But they are not much help with one-off machines like we tend to get on this list -tony JRJ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 15 11:59:36 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 09:59:36 -0700 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CF6FF8.90009@sydex.com> I went and stared at some of my 8" drives for a bit this morning. It occurs to me that if your top guide frame is laterally "warped", the centering of the hub clamp assembly won't work. If you've got a wiggler gauge handy, you may want to see what the deviation is when the hub clamp mates with the spindle hub assembly. While you're at it, you may want to check the spindle hub itself to see if it's not out-of-round. There's a patent 3,898,814 on the Shugart clamping system that many manufacturers licensed. Perhaps it can shed some light. --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 15 12:06:10 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 12:06:10 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CF7182.2030704@charter.net> On 8/14/2015 11:56 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> There is no play in the spindle at all. Certainly not 1/2 track worth. >> Can't wiggle it at all, no visible wobble, etc. > > Not necessarily play. Anyway, half a track width is just over 10 thou > and I am not sure I could notice that amount of runout by eye. Also > I have learnt by bitter experience to check everything, otherwise you > discover (far too late) that the thing that was 'obviously right and > didn't need checking' was the problem > My experiment at manual centering, with the motor off, was not successful - no better results than the normal mounting process, possibly even a bit worse. From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 15 12:29:14 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 12:29:14 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> On 8/15/2015 11:51 AM, tony duell wrote: > > In every 8" (and 5.25") drive that I've seen the spindle (the bit driven, maybe > indirectly, by the motor) has a female cone on the end. There is then the clamping > cone, often plastic which fits into it through the hole in the disk. Not so on these drives. On the Shugart SA-800 series, the spindle (driven by a belt from a motor) has a MALE cone on the end, and the clamp, from above goes around it (female if you like). The part of the spindle on the media of the side of the deck looks like this: x x x x x x y y xxxxxxx xxxxxx At one point I thought, MAYBE, there was a little grouve at position "y" that I could catch a blade of an Xacto or tiny screwdriver on on the bad drive, but not the good one - but I am not at all sure of that. If that is true - if there really is a little groove there, then that would well explain the symptoms. It could get off center, and it would NOT precess. I would think that a spindle with a bearing issue would precess, so it would never work during an entire floppy test - it would always exhibit some wobble. > > That plastic part may be shown as one piece in the service manual as individual parts > are not available as spares, but most of the time it's actually 2 bits with a spring inside. > > I can see the entire nylon finger piece finger - it is completely exposed except for a small bit under a screw and washer. It has a bunch of fingers attached to a disk - all one nylon piece during manufacture. The fingers can spread out. The fingers have a flat part on them which then presses the media against the flat part of the spindle. They have a spring around the outside of all of the fingers for tension. Besides, as I have explained, I have switched out the entire assembly with the fingers to no avail. >> Haven't taken the spindle apart. (Page 6, parts 2 through 10). Not >> sure I would want to - if it is that worn somewhere, requiring changing >> out its bearing or the like, then for me the case is probably hopeless. > > If it's not the clamping cone then it pretty much has to be the spindle. A comment > about pot metal got me thinking. If the cone has swollen due to oxidation of one > component of the pot metal, it may be that the plastic cone is compressed too far too > early and the media slips out of alignment. The plastic fingers EXPAND on this design, AROUND the spindle, not compress. > > I would inspect the metal part of the spindle very carefully. I would check for excessive runout > of the conical section. I would look for damage (burrs, etc). Do you have mechanical measuring > tools (callipers, etc)? No, but I could get some calipers. They aren't expensive. But if that is the problem, it is a lost cause for me to fix anyway. > > The ball races are most likely standard parts and can be obtained. Other parts may have to > be made. > And I'd have no way to make them. And no point - it isn't like the world is short of these drives. > >> My gut feeling about this remains that something interferes with the >> media centering itself on the cone of the spindle before it gets clamped >> down. > > My feeling is similar, that the clamping cone allows the media to slip about before it > is finally clamped so that sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't > >> What I am really looking for is someone who had a drive with similar >> behavior that can say "hey, I had that too, and it was ......". > > Firstly I think it's a long shot that somebody else will have had this and secondly > even if they have had the same symptoms it might be due to a different cause. Better > to actually work out what is wrong with _your_ drive (sorry, but I have never gone along > with the idea of stock faults and cures [1]). Me neither, usually, but this one has me mystified, so I was curious of someone else had ever seen similar symptoms. > > [1] May be OK if you have a lot of similar units to repair, say you are a repair shop and > you keep seeing the same model of TV come in. Stock faults may then let you get 90% off > the bench very quickly. But they are not much help with one-off machines like we tend to > get on this list > > -tony > > > JRJ > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 15 12:32:41 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 17:32:41 +0000 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> , <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> Message-ID: > > Not so on these drives. On the Shugart SA-800 series, the spindle > (driven by a belt from a motor) has a MALE cone on the end, and the > clamp, from above goes around it (female if you like). How does that work? The disk media must fit around that male cone. Is the complete disk carried by the clamp arm or something? I need to find one of these drives to examine. Seems like an odd way to do it. The metal cone is not going to change in diameter. So the hole in the media has to just fit it, if too tight the media will be distorted, if too loose it won't centre. -tony From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 15 12:37:35 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 12:37:35 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CF6FF8.90009@sydex.com> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> <55CF6FF8.90009@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55CF78DF.3070503@charter.net> On 8/15/2015 11:59 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I went and stared at some of my 8" drives for a bit this morning. > > It occurs to me that if your top guide frame is laterally "warped", the > centering of the hub clamp assembly won't work. Agreed. But the darn thing is cast, with lots of fillets for support. I wonder how it would ever get warped, short of something REALLY heavy being dropped on it, or it itself being dropped from a considerable height - and there is no evidence of that. However, I thought I would test an SA 801 (jumpered as an SA 800) on the thing, so I could test the controller at double density. When I did that, something died (smelled electronically burn-y) after a few seconds of OK operation. Not sure if it was one of the tantalums or the stepper or something else, though. Anyway, I now have a drive that I can pull the clamp arm out of (the top guide frame, as you say) and try in the failing drive, to see if I can nail it down to that part of the spindle, just out of curiosity. > > If you've got a wiggler gauge handy, you may want to see what the > deviation is when the hub clamp mates with the spindle hub assembly. > While you're at it, you may want to check the spindle hub itself to see > if it's not out-of-round. Don't have a wiggler gauge, or anything to use it with. > > There's a patent 3,898,814 on the Shugart clamping system that many > manufacturers licensed. Perhaps it can shed some light. > > --Chuck > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 15 13:35:45 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 18:35:45 +0000 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> , <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> Message-ID: > Not so on these drives. On the Shugart SA-800 series, the spindle > (driven by a belt from a motor) has a MALE cone on the end, and the > clamp, from above goes around it (female if you like). I have just pulled the case on one of my HP9885s, which uses an SA801 chassis and HP electronics. The spindle clamping mechanism is as you describe. I took the cover plate off the clamp arm and looked at the (female) cone, etc. The cone is in 2 parts, with a bearing between them, the outer housing doesn't rotate in normal operation. There is also a spring ring round the outside of the nylon fingers. BUT I don't see how any of this has anything to do with centering. If the disk is pushed down onto the male spindle end (and yes, the disk guides do move with clamp arm) it will centre. So all that really affects things is the metal spinde. I suppose gross errors in how the clamp comes down could do it, but unless the clamp arm is hanging on one pivot only, or something, I don't think that's it. It virtually has to be a problem with the male cone end. I think you need to measure that carefully and compare the measurements with a good drive, look for burrs and wear. Remember that 10 thou is not much. What if, due to some problem with the spindle cone, it clamps on one side before the other? That could cause the disk to skew round and loose centering I think. -tony The part of the spindle on the media of the side of the deck looks like this: x x x x x x y y xxxxxxx xxxxxx At one point I thought, MAYBE, there was a little grouve at position "y" that I could catch a blade of an Xacto or tiny screwdriver on on the bad drive, but not the good one - but I am not at all sure of that. If that is true - if there really is a little groove there, then that would well explain the symptoms. It could get off center, and it would NOT precess. I would think that a spindle with a bearing issue would precess, so it would never work during an entire floppy test - it would always exhibit some wobble. > > That plastic part may be shown as one piece in the service manual as individual parts > are not available as spares, but most of the time it's actually 2 bits with a spring inside. > > I can see the entire nylon finger piece finger - it is completely exposed except for a small bit under a screw and washer. It has a bunch of fingers attached to a disk - all one nylon piece during manufacture. The fingers can spread out. The fingers have a flat part on them which then presses the media against the flat part of the spindle. They have a spring around the outside of all of the fingers for tension. Besides, as I have explained, I have switched out the entire assembly with the fingers to no avail. >> Haven't taken the spindle apart. (Page 6, parts 2 through 10). Not >> sure I would want to - if it is that worn somewhere, requiring changing >> out its bearing or the like, then for me the case is probably hopeless. > > If it's not the clamping cone then it pretty much has to be the spindle. A comment > about pot metal got me thinking. If the cone has swollen due to oxidation of one > component of the pot metal, it may be that the plastic cone is compressed too far too > early and the media slips out of alignment. The plastic fingers EXPAND on this design, AROUND the spindle, not compress. > > I would inspect the metal part of the spindle very carefully. I would check for excessive runout > of the conical section. I would look for damage (burrs, etc). Do you have mechanical measuring > tools (callipers, etc)? No, but I could get some calipers. They aren't expensive. But if that is the problem, it is a lost cause for me to fix anyway. > > The ball races are most likely standard parts and can be obtained. Other parts may have to > be made. > And I'd have no way to make them. And no point - it isn't like the world is short of these drives. > >> My gut feeling about this remains that something interferes with the >> media centering itself on the cone of the spindle before it gets clamped >> down. > > My feeling is similar, that the clamping cone allows the media to slip about before it > is finally clamped so that sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't > >> What I am really looking for is someone who had a drive with similar >> behavior that can say "hey, I had that too, and it was ......". > > Firstly I think it's a long shot that somebody else will have had this and secondly > even if they have had the same symptoms it might be due to a different cause. Better > to actually work out what is wrong with _your_ drive (sorry, but I have never gone along > with the idea of stock faults and cures [1]). Me neither, usually, but this one has me mystified, so I was curious of someone else had ever seen similar symptoms. > > [1] May be OK if you have a lot of similar units to repair, say you are a repair shop and > you keep seeing the same model of TV come in. Stock faults may then let you get 90% off > the bench very quickly. But they are not much help with one-off machines like we tend to > get on this list > > -tony > > > JRJ > From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 15 13:42:03 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 13:42:03 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CF87FB.4070301@charter.net> On 8/15/2015 12:32 PM, tony duell wrote: >> >> Not so on these drives. On the Shugart SA-800 series, the spindle >> (driven by a belt from a motor) has a MALE cone on the end, and the >> clamp, from above goes around it (female if you like). > > How does that work? The disk media must fit around that male cone. Is the > complete disk carried by the clamp arm or something? I need to find one > of these drives to examine. Yes, the clamp arm has the media guides. > > Seems like an odd way to do it. The metal cone is not going to change in > diameter. So the hole in the media has to just fit it, if too tight the media > will be distorted, if too loose it won't centre. Yup. > > -tony > From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 15 13:51:25 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 13:51:25 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CF8A2D.1030007@charter.net> On 8/15/2015 1:35 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> Not so on these drives. On the Shugart SA-800 series, the spindle >> (driven by a belt from a motor) has a MALE cone on the end, and the >> clamp, from above goes around it (female if you like). > > I have just pulled the case on one of my HP9885s, which uses an SA801 > chassis and HP electronics. The spindle clamping mechanism is as you > describe. I took the cover plate off the clamp arm and looked at the > (female) cone, etc. > > The cone is in 2 parts, with a bearing between them, the outer housing > doesn't rotate in normal operation. There is also a spring ring round the > outside of the nylon fingers. BUT I don't see how any of this has anything > to do with centering. If the disk is pushed down onto the male spindle end > (and yes, the disk guides do move with clamp arm) it will centre. So all that > really affects things is the metal spinde. > > I suppose gross errors in how the clamp comes down could do it, but > unless the clamp arm is hanging on one pivot only, or something, I don't > think that's it. I tend to agree. The nylon piece does pivot just a little, and, after all, the clamp does come down on the inside part of the drive just a bit before the outer/front side of the drive. > > It virtually has to be a problem with the male cone end. I think you > need to measure that carefully and compare the measurements with > a good drive, look for burrs and wear. Remember that 10 thou is not > much. I'd have to buy something to measure with (not a big problem). No burrs. Already checked for that, and polished the upper conical part (above the vertical part where diameter becomes critical). That was part of my first guess that maybe the media was hanging up on the cone somewhere on the way down. Wear is certainly possible, but as I pointed out in an earlier message, the media isn't supposed to slip during use, so there ought not to be all that much wear on the spindle cone. > > What if, due to some problem with the spindle cone, it clamps on one side > before the other? That could cause the disk to skew round and loose centering > I think. Certainly one of my thoughts along the way. But, the spindle cone does not rock or anything like that. And, I switched the clamping part out with another drive - neither was affected by the swap. > > -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 15 13:55:08 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 18:55:08 +0000 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CF8A2D.1030007@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> , <55CF8A2D.1030007@charter.net> Message-ID: > Certainly one of my thoughts along the way. But, the spindle cone does > not rock or anything like that. And, I switched the clamping part out > with another drive - neither was affected by the swap. It strikes me that there are 3 main subassemblies associated with clamping the disk : The cone; the clamping arm; and the spindle. If you have proved the first 2 are OK by using them in another drive (admittedly not a perfect test, but it suggests they are not the problem) then I would look very carefully at the spindle. Making a replacement cone is possible, but not easy, given the accuracy needed. It appears that the spindle in my drive is in 2 parts, the cone is pressed onto the end of a metal spindle. I think if I had to make it, I would make the spindle rod first, rough out the blank for the cone, leaving it well over size then press the blank for the cone onto the end, hold the spindle in a collet (a 3 jaw chuck is nowhere near accurate enough) and then turn the cone itself. -tony From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Sat Aug 15 14:10:15 2015 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 14:10:15 -0500 Subject: Free for Shipping Message-ID: I have the following items that I want to get rid of. All are quantity one, except the Poqets. They are free for shipping cost from Chicago (ZIP 60659). I prefer to ship in the US, but will consider shipping internationally. Contact me directly at r_a_feldman at hotmail.com if you are interested in any of the items. Bob Irwin Accutrak A250EP-05 external parallel port tape drive HP Travan T1000e external parallel port tape drive Microsolutions Backpack 800TD Model 143010 external parallel port tape drive Archive 11250Q internal tape drive Mitsumi CD-ROM Drive 16-bit PC interface cardDauphin keyboard Compaq keyboard 2680KB (from a large 386 semi-portable) Zenith Number pad ZA-3034-NP Compaq LTE Lite 25 laptop w/power brick. Backlight bad, SRAM battery bad. Never had a hard drive. Toshiba external 3.5? floppy ZA1115 Dual internal PCMCIA card reader w/EISA PC adapter card (for Win95 and earlier) 2 broken Poqet PQ-161 portables. One has a US-made motherboard and might be a ?prototype?. Has NASA sticker on it. Both have broken screens, dinged cases and a few missing keys. One shows some reaction when turned on. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Aug 15 14:18:06 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 15:18:06 -0400 Subject: WANTED: HP 3000 Message-ID: <5d4e9.12bf9c6b.4300ea6e@aol.com> Mike - this would be a good complete system for you Mike and good it has tapes. that may have the little cartridge drive in it too but beware the cartridge drives they seem to all have gummy capstans... I ruined a fos tape put it in... got error... pulled it out and looked like it was slimed with the 'black oil' like in x files! there is a work around for this though using some glue and rings on the capstan roller after you scrape the goo off. having the large tape drive is better anyway. like this unit has. Our aim here at SMECC is to get data off our old tapes fro the company days and also our bulletin board system we wrote that had 100 separate boards, email, voting and poll system multi user chat we let other 3000 system managers in the 80s use... it was really something in the pre-internet days. Mike - there should also be a full file of all the hp-3000 stuff that Marlys Nelson developed I always thought it would be fun to finally get a series 68 or 70 but... yikes the power bill would hit you and the cooling....Yikes! for the same reason we want a series II or III or CX for the museums display but to keep it under power 24/7 with a string of drives costs $$$ and especially when you consider the air conditioning ! I have a 37 cpu and a 50 meg drive but of course need recon fig it which means cold load tape as the other drives in the string are missing I can not it past the point of disavowing the other drives that do not exist. Fun time here with the manuals etc... I have not had my hands on A WORKING 3000 for over 22 years I think. A lot comes back but there are some head scratching still going on! OK have the cart tape drive with goo capstan and have reel to reel tape drive that when at initial power-up it just spins the reels. What do we need? spare cpu more little disk drives 50 meg will not hold the store set from 1986 Known good reel to reel hpib tape drives 1600 bpi ok as that is what our store set is in and any of the other reel to reel tape distributions contributions and found stuff was. I will keep an eyen out for east coast stuff for you and appreciate if you keep an eye out on west coast stuff for us! pretty fun with drop box we can share programs without having to ship tapes to each other! Ed Sharpe archaist for SMECC _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 8/15/2015 6:36:21 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, steerex at ccvn.com writes: Mike, I have a complete micro/37 that I'd be willing to part with. It was last booted about 2 years ago when another list member was trying to his a system running. Is is mounted in one of the short / narrow HP racks with 3x670H HPIB drives. I think the total disk size is about 1 Gb. That seems like a ton for a system that small. I also have a HPIB 7980 front loading tape drive, that I would include in the deal. AND... I have the original 9-track system tapes (FOS), some spare NOS tapes (let me know how many you'd like), the original MPE documents on CD, and I could probably dig up some MPE paper documentation as well. I am in western NC but could be coaxed into meeting you somewhere closer (possibly southern Virginia). I'll take an offer but, be warned, I'm not giving it away. Thanks, Steve Robertson steerex at ccvn.com On 8/14/2015 10:01 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > I worked on HP 3000 systems in the late '80s, and would like to find > one for my collection. A series 42 would be nice, but a series 37 or > micro XE would do. Any leads? I'm already aware of the one on Epay in > Florida that's been sitting at $1,725 for the past year. > > I'm in central PA. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > -- Steve Robertson steerex at ccvn.com From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Aug 15 14:18:06 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 15:18:06 -0400 Subject: WANTED: HP 3000 Message-ID: <5d4e9.12bf9c6b.4300ea6e@aol.com> Mike - this would be a good complete system for you Mike and good it has tapes. that may have the little cartridge drive in it too but beware the cartridge drives they seem to all have gummy capstans... I ruined a fos tape put it in... got error... pulled it out and looked like it was slimed with the 'black oil' like in x files! there is a work around for this though using some glue and rings on the capstan roller after you scrape the goo off. having the large tape drive is better anyway. like this unit has. Our aim here at SMECC is to get data off our old tapes fro the company days and also our bulletin board system we wrote that had 100 separate boards, email, voting and poll system multi user chat we let other 3000 system managers in the 80s use... it was really something in the pre-internet days. Mike - there should also be a full file of all the hp-3000 stuff that Marlys Nelson developed I always thought it would be fun to finally get a series 68 or 70 but... yikes the power bill would hit you and the cooling....Yikes! for the same reason we want a series II or III or CX for the museums display but to keep it under power 24/7 with a string of drives costs $$$ and especially when you consider the air conditioning ! I have a 37 cpu and a 50 meg drive but of course need recon fig it which means cold load tape as the other drives in the string are missing I can not it past the point of disavowing the other drives that do not exist. Fun time here with the manuals etc... I have not had my hands on A WORKING 3000 for over 22 years I think. A lot comes back but there are some head scratching still going on! OK have the cart tape drive with goo capstan and have reel to reel tape drive that when at initial power-up it just spins the reels. What do we need? spare cpu more little disk drives 50 meg will not hold the store set from 1986 Known good reel to reel hpib tape drives 1600 bpi ok as that is what our store set is in and any of the other reel to reel tape distributions contributions and found stuff was. I will keep an eyen out for east coast stuff for you and appreciate if you keep an eye out on west coast stuff for us! pretty fun with drop box we can share programs without having to ship tapes to each other! Ed Sharpe archaist for SMECC _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 8/15/2015 6:36:21 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, steerex at ccvn.com writes: Mike, I have a complete micro/37 that I'd be willing to part with. It was last booted about 2 years ago when another list member was trying to his a system running. Is is mounted in one of the short / narrow HP racks with 3x670H HPIB drives. I think the total disk size is about 1 Gb. That seems like a ton for a system that small. I also have a HPIB 7980 front loading tape drive, that I would include in the deal. AND... I have the original 9-track system tapes (FOS), some spare NOS tapes (let me know how many you'd like), the original MPE documents on CD, and I could probably dig up some MPE paper documentation as well. I am in western NC but could be coaxed into meeting you somewhere closer (possibly southern Virginia). I'll take an offer but, be warned, I'm not giving it away. Thanks, Steve Robertson steerex at ccvn.com On 8/14/2015 10:01 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > I worked on HP 3000 systems in the late '80s, and would like to find > one for my collection. A series 42 would be nice, but a series 37 or > micro XE would do. Any leads? I'm already aware of the one on Epay in > Florida that's been sitting at $1,725 for the past year. > > I'm in central PA. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > -- Steve Robertson steerex at ccvn.com From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 15 15:13:09 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 15:13:09 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> <55CF8A2D.1030007@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CF9D55.2070200@charter.net> On 8/15/2015 1:55 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> Certainly one of my thoughts along the way. But, the spindle cone does >> not rock or anything like that. And, I switched the clamping part out >> with another drive - neither was affected by the swap. > > It strikes me that there are 3 main subassemblies associated with clamping the disk : > The cone; the clamping arm; and the spindle. If you have proved the first 2 are OK by > using them in another drive (admittedly not a perfect test, but it suggests they are not > the problem) then I would look very carefully at the spindle. > > Making a replacement cone is possible, but not easy, given the accuracy needed. It > appears that the spindle in my drive is in 2 parts, the cone is pressed onto the end of > a metal spindle. I think if I had to make it, I would make the spindle rod first, rough out > the blank for the cone, leaving it well over size then press the blank for the cone onto > the end, hold the spindle in a collet (a 3 jaw chuck is nowhere near accurate enough) > and then turn the cone itself. > > -tony > I think if I had to make it, I'd just find another drive. ;) To make matters worse, that test with the first SA 801 managed to smoke the 24V power supply on this system, so now I have to pull it all apart, and pull out the regulator transistor which is mounted from the reverse side through to the board and soldered on the top side of the board. (possibly 3 of them, if that transistor isn't obviously the problem). A royal pain in the arse. So, there won't be any progress for quite a while. Maybe months. Sigh. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Aug 15 19:52:50 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 20:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Clearpoint DCME/Q4E configuration Message-ID: <20150816005250.815EF18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, does anyone know anything about the configuration of these boards? (The document on BitSavers only covers the Q4B; the jumper configuration on the Q4E is totally different.) They are 4MB quad QBUS memory cards; PMI capable, I'm pretty sure. I have two of them, one of which came out of an 11/84 (I never saw it in the machine, though), and is so probably configured to run PMI. The thing is that I stupidly mixed it in with the other one, and now I don't know which one is which - and they are jumpered differently. It doesn't have to be full (or any) documentation; if someone had one they _knew_ was jumpered for, say, PMI operation, I could copy their jumper setup (or see if one of mine already had the same). If not, I'm going to start in on drawing a picture of all the jumpers, and see what QBUS/PMI pins they are all connected to - looking at the card, there's a big row of jumpers next to the pins the PMI is on, and the jumpers are all 'on' on one card, and all 'off' on the other, so I suspect the one card is jumpered for PMI operation, and the other, not. So, even if there no documentation extant at all, we should be able to more of less figure out what many of the jumpers do, and start making use of these cards. But any help/info would be gratefully received! Noel From jonelson126 at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 20:31:42 2015 From: jonelson126 at gmail.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 20:31:42 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CFE7FE.5030701@pico-systems.com> On 08/14/2015 02:58 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: The way most of the old 8" floppies work is they have a cylinder with an ID that matches the ID of the floppy hole. The floppy sits against the face of the cylinder, and a plastic, springy cone is pressed into the cylinder by a bearing and spring on the loading arm. This arm usually also lifts the head off the media when in the open position. So, the first thing to check is if the plastic springy thing still has all its fingers. If fingers have broken off, the result is obvious. If all the fingers are still there, check for smooth sliding into the cylinder. If the fingers have gotten bent or rough, the clamp may not always seat reliably against the hub. Finally, the spring or bearing may have a failure, not driving the clamp into the spindle. Almost certainly, careful examination of these parts will reveal the problem. Jon From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 15 20:55:30 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 20:55:30 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CFE7FE.5030701@pico-systems.com> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CFE7FE.5030701@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55CFED92.1000202@charter.net> On 8/15/2015 8:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 08/14/2015 02:58 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: No, I didn't write any of what was quoted. ;) If one is going to remove the entire message quoted, then it probably makes sense to delete the "wrote" line as well. ;) > > The way most of the old 8" floppies work is they have a cylinder with an > ID that matches the ID of the floppy hole. The floppy sits against the > face of the cylinder, and a plastic, springy cone is pressed into the > cylinder by a bearing and spring on the loading arm. This arm usually > also lifts the head off the media when in the open position. > As Tony discovered after checking one of his own SA-800 series drives, that is not how the SA-800 series works. In these drives, the spindle is NOT a cylinder. The spindle is a CONE on top of a flat part (all one machined piece), then a shaft through the deck, to the pulley on the other side. The media sits on the flat part , just below the cone, and the plastic springy CYLINDER (more or less), gets pressed OVER the cone and on top of the media over the flat part. > So, the first thing to check is if the plastic springy thing still has > all its fingers. If fingers have broken off, the result is obvious. If > all the fingers are still there, check for smooth sliding into the > cylinder. If the fingers have gotten bent or rough, the clamp may not > always seat reliably against the hub. > Had you read the whole thread, you would have read that I had already examined the "plastic springy thing" (aka, the hub clamp), and found it to be healthy, and HAD ALREADY SWITCHED IT WITH ANOTHER hub clamp THAT WAS on a working drive with no change to either drive. > Finally, the spring or bearing may have a failure, not driving the clamp > into the spindle. > The hub clamp is engaging onto the spindle just fine, thank you very much. There is no bearing of any real import in the hub clamp, really, just a screw through (perhaps) a little straight bearing. The spring in the hub clamp is obviously fine (and, again, it had been part of the assembly I switched with another drive). > Almost certainly, careful examination of these parts will reveal the > problem. No, careful examination most certainly did NOT reveal the problem. At this point, the best guess is either that the clamp arm is out of true (unlikely), a grove that cuts into the cone at its bottom, allowing the media to shift, or a spindle problem (bearing, not the correct shape any more, etc. etc.). > > Jon > JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 15 21:35:35 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 21:35:35 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CF9D55.2070200@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> <55CF8A2D.1030007@charter.net> <55CF9D55.2070200@charter.net> Message-ID: <55CFF6F7.3000909@charter.net> On 8/15/2015 3:13 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > To make matters worse, that test with the first SA 801 managed to smoke > the 24V power supply on this system, so now I have to pull it all apart, > and pull out the regulator transistor which is mounted from the reverse > side through to the board and soldered on the top side of the board. > (possibly 3 of them, if that transistor isn't obviously the problem). A > royal pain in the arse. > > So, there won't be any progress for quite a while. Maybe months. > > Sigh. > > Got the power supply series pass transistor out from the backside without all *that* much difficulty. Soldering irons with temperature sensors are "the bomb", though I may have been able to manage it with the same 45W de-soldering iron with built-in bulb I used to clean out the holes. The power supply was definitely a victim of over-current: the series pass transistor is blown open (2N3055, fortunately and oddly, available from the local Radio Shack), and 4 overheated resistors, one of which is in series with the output - that one is actually cracked. I have a spare of the same resistance and probably greater wattage as that one that I can pull from a different dead/unused power supply. The other resistors are all ordinary 1/2 W. The transistor driving the series pass transistor seems fine based on a simple ohmmeter test. So sometime tomorrow or so, I ought to be able to fix it. (It fooled me for a little while to - even with an open series pass transistor, there is still 24V output - it only dropped out (to about 2V) when the head loaded on a drive.) I am still not 100% sure if I shorted something while I was testing - the test drive was placed on top of the system, or I did some other silly thing with the jumpers such that two steppers ended up active at the same time (I don't think so), or if the SA-801 is just bad. I'll have to rig up a test where I power the 24V to the SA-801 from a current limited bench supply I have before I try it again. JRJ From jonelson126 at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 22:33:30 2015 From: jonelson126 at gmail.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 22:33:30 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CFED92.1000202@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CFE7FE.5030701@pico-systems.com> <55CFED92.1000202@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D0048A.8050504@pico-systems.com> On 08/15/2015 08:55 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 8/15/2015 8:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 08/14/2015 02:58 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > No, I didn't write any of what was quoted. ;) If one is going to remove > the entire message quoted, then it probably makes sense to delete the > "wrote" line as well. ;) > Yes, I should have - sorry for the fumble. Jon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 15 23:49:30 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 21:49:30 -0700 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55CFED92.1000202@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net>, , <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CFE7FE.5030701@pico-systems.com>,<55CFED92.1000202@charter.net> Message-ID: Sorry about the error in which side has the cone and which side has the cylinder. I don't have a 800 here in front of me to look at. It still doesn't make any difference if the moving arm is a little off. The piece that is mounted on the arm is designed to float on the spring. It is still the spindle that aligns the disk. The piece on the arm would have to be really out of line to cause the disk to not seat fully on the spindle. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 16 00:19:34 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 22:19:34 -0700 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net>, , <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CFE7FE.5030701@pico-systems.com>, <55CFED92.1000202@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D01D66.9040907@sydex.com> On 08/15/2015 09:49 PM, dwight wrote: > Sorry about the error in which side has the cone and which side has > the cylinder. I don't have a 800 here in front of me to look at. It > still doesn't make any difference if the moving arm is a little off. > The piece that is mounted on the arm is designed to float on the > spring. It is still the spindle that aligns the disk. The piece on > the arm would have to be really out of line to cause the disk to not > seat fully on the spindle. That's the conclusion I came to--for a way to see how the whole mechanism works, see Shugart's patent 3,898,814 illustrations. I believe that the earlier Micropolis 5.25" floppy drives worked the same way. I recall that when they first came out, they'd mangle the hub area of a floppy because the spindle motor often had been turned off by the host. Eventually, the design was modified so that the motor spun up as the drive door closed, which solved the problem. Before that, Dysan had experimented with putting a reinforcing ring on their floppies. By the time high-density drives came out, the problem had been solved so there was no need to reinforce the HD floppy hub area. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 01:22:58 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 00:22:58 -0600 Subject: docs or software for Quay 900 (uses Quay 90F/MPS board) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In July 2014 I mentioned that I did some reverse-engineering of a Quay 900 computer system, based on the Quay 90F/MPS single-board Z80 computer and two CDC/MPI 9406 double-sided 8-inch floppy drives. Back then I wrote a simple monitor ROM and a floppy disk formatter program, but at the time I didn't have any double-sided 8-inch media on hand, so the formatter was written for single-sided use only. I just updated it for double-sided use and put the updated source code at: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/quay/quay900/floppy_formatter/ I still haven't tracked down any documentation on the -022 variant (full P/N 77618022) of the 9406 drive. The service manual on Bitsavers lists that variant in the table documenting mechanical hardware of variants, but it does not list the PWA (circuit board) p/n 77615454 at all. This variant seems to have a Shugart-compatible pinout, perhaps what is known as a "9406-3", while all of the variants in the service manual do not have a Shugart-compatible pinout. I don't have the time or energy to reverse-engineeer the PWA. A mystery has arisen in that I tried to autodetect double-sided media, since most Shugart-compatible 8-inch double-sided drives will assert the TWOSIDED/ signal on pin 14 if they detect a two-sided medium, based on which index sensor is active. The uPD765/8272 will provide an indication of that after seek-class commands in ST3, but I found that the bit is always reading as zero regardless of whether I use a single- or double-sided disk. Inspecting the signal on pin 14 reveals very unexpected behavior. Pin 14 is always either unasserted, or toggling at about 976 Hz. It does seem correlated with whether I have a double-side disk inserted, except that it does that regardless of whether a drive is selected. If I put a single-sided disk in one drive, and a double-sided in the other, pin 14 toggles all the time. This really makes me wonder just what this particular 9406 variant is trying to do with pin 14. From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 02:10:27 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 01:10:27 -0600 Subject: docs or software for Quay 900 (uses Quay 90F/MPS board) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My references to pin 14 should have been to pin 10 for the TWOSIDED/ signal. Pin 14 is the SIDESELECT/ signal which was working fine. From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 02:14:19 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 01:14:19 -0600 Subject: docs or software for Quay 900 (uses Quay 90F/MPS board) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just realized that the toggling of pin 14 is thanks to the feature of the uPD765/8272 that automatically polls all four drives. I mostly have worked with WD controllers which don't do that. So I still don't know why the TWOSIDED/ signal isn't being reflected in ST3. I'll have to trace out how it's wired on the board. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 15 11:40:40 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 16:40:40 +0000 Subject: Analog to Digital Converter In-Reply-To: <55CF6642.3060709@comcast.net> References: <55CF6642.3060709@comcast.net> Message-ID: > I have a number of laboratory instruments that are from the 1990 time > frame. They produce digital data that is the digitized signal from a > detector, the data can be from 512 to 65K samples long. The ADC used in > these instruments is a 16bit 100ksample/sec design. The ADC is in a 3 > by 4 inch metal box with a row of pins on each long edge. [...] > What is inside the box? Is it a hybrid circuit? I came across somewhat similar looking ADC and DAC modules in an I2S image display system. These were flat metal cans with pins on the bottom, going into individual sockets on the PCB. In that case the can could be opened up quite easily (I think just a couple of points to unsolder. Inside was a PCB _stuffed_ with components, including several possibly custom metal-can ICs (in the case of the ADC I susect fast analogue comparators). Have you tried to open your module? It may not be potted. -tony From pfriedr at gainbroadband.com Sat Aug 15 17:24:45 2015 From: pfriedr at gainbroadband.com (pfriedr at gainbroadband.com) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 15:24:45 -0700 Subject: Still more Parts available: DEC, TI-990, and HP1000 Message-ID: <5dba92eaa7b81e1cba818890959f2f53@pfriedr@gainbroadband.com> I've just added to yesterday's list of vintage computer items that need to find a good home. Details, part numbers, and descriptions can be found here: http://www.hpfriedrichs.com/hpfparts/hpfparts.htm Thank you to several classiccmp members who corrected my earlier post. Some of the parts I have listed are associated with PDP 11/23s, not 11/34s. 73 Pete AC7ZL From jonelson126 at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 20:41:46 2015 From: jonelson126 at gmail.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 20:41:46 -0500 Subject: Analog to Digital Converter In-Reply-To: <55CF6642.3060709@comcast.net> References: <55CF6642.3060709@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55CFEA5A.5010404@pico-systems.com> On 08/15/2015 11:18 AM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > I have a number of laboratory instruments that are from the 1990 time > frame. They produce digital data that is the digitized signal from a > detector, the data can be from 512 to 65K samples long. The ADC used > in these instruments is a 16bit 100ksample/sec design. The ADC is in > a 3 by 4 inch metal box with a row of pins on each long edge. > > I think some of them are failing because I get the full 16 bit > resolution from one machine, but not the others. This was determined > by taking the digital samples and sorting the values and computing the > increments between the adjacent values. In some cases the output > looked like 14 bit resolution and in one case 6 bit resolution. > > Does anyone have any experience with technology? > > Who was the manufacturer? (There is no id on the outside) > > What is inside the box? Is it a hybrid circuit? > DDC made a number of hybrid ADCs, but I've never seen one that was 3 x 4"! That's really big. Most likely there is a normal PC board inside, with a bunch of chips and discrete components on it. Is this box hermetic, or maybe if you peel back a label, there may be screws that hold it together. Jon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 15 23:56:46 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 21:56:46 -0700 Subject: Analog to Digital Converter In-Reply-To: References: <55CF6642.3060709@comcast.net>, Message-ID: Most of these older module use successive approximation converters. If you read them too fast, you'll only get a partial conversion. A number of manufactures made these modules. Analog Devices, Harris, Beckman and several others. Dwight > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Analog to Digital Converter > Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 16:40:40 +0000 > > > > I have a number of laboratory instruments that are from the 1990 time > > frame. They produce digital data that is the digitized signal from a > > detector, the data can be from 512 to 65K samples long. The ADC used in > > these instruments is a 16bit 100ksample/sec design. The ADC is in a 3 > > by 4 inch metal box with a row of pins on each long edge. > > [...] > > > What is inside the box? Is it a hybrid circuit? > > I came across somewhat similar looking ADC and DAC modules in an I2S image > display system. These were flat metal cans with pins on the bottom, going into > individual sockets on the PCB. > > In that case the can could be opened up quite easily (I think just a couple of points > to unsolder. Inside was a PCB _stuffed_ with components, including several possibly > custom metal-can ICs (in the case of the ADC I susect fast analogue comparators). > > Have you tried to open your module? It may not be potted. > > -tony From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Aug 16 04:14:57 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 11:14:57 +0200 Subject: Clearpoint DCME/Q4E configuration In-Reply-To: <20150816005250.815EF18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150816005250.815EF18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55D05491.3060200@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-16 02:52, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Hi, does anyone know anything about the configuration of these boards? > (The document on BitSavers only covers the Q4B; the jumper configuration > on the Q4E is totally different.) They are 4MB quad QBUS memory cards; > PMI capable, I'm pretty sure. > > I have two of them, one of which came out of an 11/84 (I never saw it in the > machine, though), and is so probably configured to run PMI. The thing is that > I stupidly mixed it in with the other one, and now I don't know which one is > which - and they are jumpered differently. > > It doesn't have to be full (or any) documentation; if someone had one they > _knew_ was jumpered for, say, PMI operation, I could copy their jumper setup > (or see if one of mine already had the same). > > > If not, I'm going to start in on drawing a picture of all the jumpers, and > see what QBUS/PMI pins they are all connected to - looking at the card, > there's a big row of jumpers next to the pins the PMI is on, and the jumpers > are all 'on' on one card, and all 'off' on the other, so I suspect the one > card is jumpered for PMI operation, and the other, not. > > So, even if there no documentation extant at all, we should be able to more of > less figure out what many of the jumpers do, and start making use of these > cards. > > But any help/info would be gratefully received! Not a direct help, but DEC's memory boards never had any jumpers for PMI as such. It was automatically detected depending on where the board was placed on the backplane. Jumpers/switches were only used to set the base address and the CSR address of the boards. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From radiotest at juno.com Sun Aug 16 08:36:13 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 09:36:13 -0400 Subject: Analog to Digital Converter In-Reply-To: References: <55CF6642.3060709@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20150816083616.03cf3b30@juno.com> At 12:56 AM 8/16/2015, Dwight wrote: >Most of these older module use successive approximation converters. If you read them too fast, you'll only get a partial conversion. I'll second that. The ones I have seen most often (in another industry) were Harris. For those who would like who would like to increase their understanding of DSP I suggest: http://what-when-how.com/Tutorial/topic-3062l7iib/Applications-of-DSP-to-Audio-and-Acoustics-113.html For greater background on and history of DSP I suggest looking up some of the references cited in that paper if you have access to a good EE library. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 16 09:46:12 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 07:46:12 -0700 Subject: Analog to Digital Converter In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20150816083616.03cf3b30@juno.com> References: <55CF6642.3060709@comcast.net>, , , <7.0.1.0.2.20150816083616.03cf3b30@juno.com> Message-ID: I was thinking that around this time, dual slop detectors were becoming popular but it is unlikely this is your problem. If reading a dual slope before conversion is complete, the value read would be low in value, not just missing LSBs. They were generally slower as well but often in the 16 or more bits of accuracy. Tinker Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 16 10:24:27 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 08:24:27 -0700 Subject: QIC-24 data analysis In-Reply-To: <55CF4B98.3020604@bitsavers.org> References: <55CF4B98.3020604@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I left a note there about using CRCs to do data correction. It is a simpler method for software than normally use. Dwight > Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 07:24:24 -0700 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: General at classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: QIC-24 data analysis > > > This looks like fun.. > > http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2015/08/qic-24-tape-data-block-format-decoding.html > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 16 10:46:08 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 08:46:08 -0700 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55D01D66.9040907@sydex.com> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, , <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net>, , , , <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CFE7FE.5030701@pico-systems.com>,,<55CFED92.1000202@charter.net> ,<55D01D66.9040907@sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com snip > I believe that the earlier Micropolis 5.25" floppy drives worked the > same way. I recall that when they first came out, they'd mangle the hub > area of a floppy because the spindle motor often had been turned off by > the host. Eventually, the design was modified so that the motor spun up > as the drive door closed, which solved the problem. > > Before that, Dysan had experimented with putting a reinforcing ring on > their floppies. By the time high-density drives came out, the problem > had been solved so there was no need to reinforce the HD floppy hub area. > > --Chuck > > I'd always wondered why that was so.It has been handy to see which were 360K as I don't think HD everhad the donut ( maybe rare ).Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 16 11:19:21 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 09:19:21 -0700 Subject: QIC-24 data analysis In-Reply-To: References: <55CF4B98.3020604@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55D0B809.4070105@sydex.com> On 08/16/2015 08:24 AM, dwight wrote: > I left a note there about using CRCs to do data correction. It is a > simpler method for software than normally use. I posted a link on VCF about using GNU CRC RevEng--a great little utility to aid in determining polynomials and initial conditions for CRCs. Not too different from figuring oddball floppy encodings. What I'd like to see is a QIC mechanical solution that treats DC carts as a reel-to-teel drive--no tension band worries. I imagine this could be done by motorizing the takeup and supply reels and putting in a driven capstan with suitable RPM control. Head positioning, of course, could be handled the normal way. Perhaps an old top-of-the-line audio cassette transport could be adapted. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 16 11:21:08 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 09:21:08 -0700 Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, , <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net>, , , , <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CFE7FE.5030701@pico-systems.com>, , <55CFED92.1000202@charter.net> , <55D01D66.9040907@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D0B874.7050703@sydex.com> On 08/16/2015 08:46 AM, dwight wrote: > I'd always wondered why that was so.It has been handy to see which > were 360K as I don't think HD everhad the donut ( maybe rare ).Dwight Where I saw the problem was with the Micropolis 77-track (single sided) 100 tpi drives. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 16 11:49:32 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 09:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem In-Reply-To: <55D0B874.7050703@sydex.com> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, , <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net>, , , , <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CFE7FE.5030701@pico-systems.com>, , <55CFED92.1000202@charter.net> , <55D01D66.9040907@sydex.com> <55D0B874.7050703@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> I'd always wondered why that was so.It has been handy to see which >> were 360K as I don't think HD everhad the donut ( maybe rare ).Dwight On Sun, 16 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Where I saw the problem was with the Micropolis 77-track (single sided) 100 > tpi drives. Their 35 track 48tpi ss drive was the same. Exceptionally sturdy and reliable drive, but not much slope on that cone, and the helical lead screw wasn't intended to step very fast. Hub reinforcers were on the later 300 Oersted disks. OR user added to early 300s and to 600 Oersteds. A disk without a hub ring could be either an early 360K or a 1.2M So, they weren't an especially reliable way to identify disks. Adding hub rings to 8" disks made for fewer issues for centering. IFF installed right - an off-center hub ring makes for even more fun. From cube1 at charter.net Sun Aug 16 12:15:16 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 12:15:16 -0500 Subject: QIC-24 data analysis In-Reply-To: <55D0B809.4070105@sydex.com> References: <55CF4B98.3020604@bitsavers.org> <55D0B809.4070105@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D0C524.5040900@charter.net> On 8/16/2015 11:19 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/16/2015 08:24 AM, dwight wrote: >> I left a note there about using CRCs to do data correction. It is a >> simpler method for software than normally use. > > I posted a link on VCF about using GNU CRC RevEng--a great little > utility to aid in determining polynomials and initial conditions for > CRCs. Not too different from figuring oddball floppy encodings. > > What I'd like to see is a QIC mechanical solution that treats DC carts > as a reel-to-teel drive--no tension band worries. I imagine this could > be done by motorizing the takeup and supply reels and putting in a > driven capstan with suitable RPM control. Head positioning, of course, > could be handled the normal way. Perhaps an old top-of-the-line audio > cassette transport could be adapted. > > --Chuck > More likely, apply the technology used on some 9 Track drives: a little tension arm and then use servos to drive the supply and takeup reels, and an encoder (*not* driven) that measures speed (in place of the capstan on older drives). From leec2124 at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 13:41:40 2015 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 11:41:40 -0700 Subject: WANTED: HP 3000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike, Sorry I no longer have any HP3000 gear, but have did make several videos about my 3000s when I did. You can see them here: https://www.youtube.com/user/CLCourtney/videos Good luck - the 3000 was a great minicomputer in its day! Lee C. On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > I worked on HP 3000 systems in the late '80s, and would like to find > one for my collection. A series 42 would be nice, but a series 37 or micro > XE would do. Any leads? I'm already aware of the one on Epay in Florida > that's been sitting at $1,725 for the past year. > > I'm in central PA. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 16 07:24:47 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 05:24:47 -0700 Subject: Analog to Digital Converter In-Reply-To: <55CFEA5A.5010404@pico-systems.com> References: <55CF6642.3060709@comcast.net> <55CFEA5A.5010404@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55D0810F.7040808@bitsavers.org> On 8/15/15 6:41 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > DDC made a number of hybrid ADCs, but I've never seen one that was 3 x > 4"! That's really big. Some of the Data Translation modules were that big. The normally had the block diagram / part number / and Data Translation silk screened on the top of them. ADAC made some big modules as well. DT boards were pretty common in Multibus and DEC versions. From steerex at ccvn.com Sun Aug 16 07:39:53 2015 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 08:39:53 -0400 Subject: WANTED: HP 3000 In-Reply-To: <5d4e9.12bf9c6b.4300ea6e@aol.com> References: <5d4e9.12bf9c6b.4300ea6e@aol.com> Message-ID: <55D08499.4080905@ccvn.com> On 8/15/2015 3:18 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > Mike - this would be a good complete system for you Mike and good > it has tapes. > that may have the little cartridge drive in it too but beware the > cartridge drives they seem to all have gummy capstans... I ruined a > fos tape put it in... got error... pulled it out and looked like it > was slimed with the 'black oil' like in x files! there is a work around > for this though using some glue and rings on the capstan roller after > you scrape the goo off. having the large tape drive is better > anyway. like this unit has. To be clear: The computer does not have a cartridge tape drive. The computer rack has the CPU and three shoebox drives. I believe each drive is about 330MB. The tape drive that I would add in the deal is a rackmount HP7980 AUTOLOADER. I think it is so cool to watch these drives load a tape. Almost magical how the tape winds it's way through the drive. See yas. Steve Robertson From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 09:00:29 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 10:00:29 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: We did a lot more debugging on the TC12 LINCtape controller. We saw a 500ns glitch in the LMU MOTION signal that corresponded to a short slowdown in tape speed. We will investigate this next week. We entered the LINC instruction to check a single block (0707) in the left switches and a block number (0777-0000) in the right switches. When we pressed the DO key it should go to that block on the LINCtape. With large block numbers (07xx) and with the tape positioned half way through the tape it worked OK. With lower block numbers it sometimes could not find the block and searched back-and-forth on the tape. The logic analyzer showed that the block numbers were correct in a sequence of several blocks, and then it will read a bad block number. The TC12 would tell the TU55 to turn around, it would read a good block number, realize that it was going the wrong direction, and turn the tape around. It would then read a good block number, and then a bad block number, and turn around. At this point we don't think that we are working with bad tapes, but the problem might be in either the TU56 tape drive, or the TC12 LINCtape controller. We see bad behavior in both devices so we will do as Charles Lasner suggested and swap a TU55 and TU56 between the PDP-12 and the PDP-8/I. This will let us test the TU56 with a known good TC01 LINCtape controller, and test a known good TU55 with a questionable TC12 LINCtape controller. We ran the A-to-D converter test and were rewarded with a display on the VR14 that showed correct operation of the knobs and A-to-D converters. -- Michael Thompson From earl at retrobits.com Sun Aug 16 10:18:59 2015 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 08:18:59 -0700 Subject: TSX Plus... In-Reply-To: <20150216080812.742403a0@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20140303201107.78bb62b2@asrock.bcwi.net> <20150216080812.742403a0@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: > > > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Lyle Bickley > > > wrote: > > > > > >> After stating that I expected TSX Plus to be available generally > > >> to the collector community this week, I have had a number of folks > > >> request access to TSX plus via private FTP. > > >> > > >> Please be a bit patient and wait for me to post it to a new > > >> website I'm in the process of creating. I now have full agreement > > >> from S&H to generally release TSX Plus, COBOL, etc., to the > > >> collector community via a simple download. > > >> > > > > > > After a bit of a hiatus with the PDP-11, I'm getting back into it. > > > Wondering if there's any update on this? Would be great to see the > > > TSX Plus bits and documentation you've collected, especially > > > considering your work with S&H to pave the way. > > > > > > > > > I am also very interested in this. > > Sorry guys, I dropped the ball on this. I've been doing a bunch of > transitioning and ended up working on a number of other projects - and > completely forgot about TSX. > > This discussion is prodding me to finish my half done website for TSX... > > I apologize for the huge delay... > > Lyle > > -- > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > Bump? I'm still quite interested in this (and if we can collect some other TSX Plus software as mentioned by other list members). - Earl From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Aug 16 10:50:36 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 11:50:36 -0400 Subject: Analog to Digital Converter In-Reply-To: References: <55CF6642.3060709@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55D0B14C.3000304@comcast.net> On 8/15/2015 12:40 PM, tony duell wrote: >> I have a number of laboratory instruments that are from the 1990 time >> frame. They produce digital data that is the digitized signal from a >> detector, the data can be from 512 to 65K samples long. The ADC used in >> these instruments is a 16bit 100ksample/sec design. The ADC is in a 3 >> by 4 inch metal box with a row of pins on each long edge. > [...] > >> What is inside the box? Is it a hybrid circuit? > I came across somewhat similar looking ADC and DAC modules in an I2S image > display system. These were flat metal cans with pins on the bottom, going into > individual sockets on the PCB. > > In that case the can could be opened up quite easily (I think just a couple of points > to unsolder. Inside was a PCB _stuffed_ with components, including several possibly > custom metal-can ICs (in the case of the ADC I susect fast analogue comparators). > > Have you tried to open your module? It may not be potted. > > -tony The ADC module is difficult to get at, the instrument it is in is very heavy and sealed against moisture. I was hoping to get more of heads up before I go back in. From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Aug 16 10:55:37 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 11:55:37 -0400 Subject: Analog to Digital Converter In-Reply-To: References: <55CF6642.3060709@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55D0B279.1010604@comcast.net> I believe that is true, it is a SAR type of ADC. That is an import piece of information there concerning reading the ADC too fast. Because I have one instrument that is working properly I can use that as a baseline to look at how fast the ADC is being pinged on. This gives me something to go on. On 8/16/2015 12:56 AM, dwight wrote: > Most of these older module use successive approximation > converters. If you read them too fast, you'll only get a partial > conversion. > A number of manufactures made these modules. Analog Devices, > Harris, Beckman and several others. > Dwight > > >> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: RE: Analog to Digital Converter >> Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 16:40:40 +0000 >> >> >>> I have a number of laboratory instruments that are from the 1990 time >>> frame. They produce digital data that is the digitized signal from a >>> detector, the data can be from 512 to 65K samples long. The ADC used in >>> these instruments is a 16bit 100ksample/sec design. The ADC is in a 3 >>> by 4 inch metal box with a row of pins on each long edge. >> [...] >> >>> What is inside the box? Is it a hybrid circuit? >> I came across somewhat similar looking ADC and DAC modules in an I2S image >> display system. These were flat metal cans with pins on the bottom, going into >> individual sockets on the PCB. >> >> In that case the can could be opened up quite easily (I think just a couple of points >> to unsolder. Inside was a PCB _stuffed_ with components, including several possibly >> custom metal-can ICs (in the case of the ADC I susect fast analogue comparators). >> >> Have you tried to open your module? It may not be potted. >> >> -tony > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Aug 16 11:02:20 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 12:02:20 -0400 Subject: Analog to Digital Converter In-Reply-To: <55D0810F.7040808@bitsavers.org> References: <55CF6642.3060709@comcast.net> <55CFEA5A.5010404@pico-systems.com> <55D0810F.7040808@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55D0B40C.6040103@comcast.net> On 8/16/2015 8:24 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/15/15 6:41 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> DDC made a number of hybrid ADCs, but I've never seen one that was 3 x >> 4"! That's really big. > > Some of the Data Translation modules were that big. The normally had the > block diagram / part number / and Data Translation silk screened on the > top of them. ADAC made some big modules as well. DT boards were pretty > common in Multibus and DEC versions. > I remember the Data Translation modules, I think the one I'm dealing with is from the same era. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 16 15:22:02 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 13:22:02 -0700 Subject: QIC-24 data analysis In-Reply-To: <55D0C524.5040900@charter.net> References: <55CF4B98.3020604@bitsavers.org> <55D0B809.4070105@sydex.com> <55D0C524.5040900@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D0F0EA.4000701@sydex.com> On 08/16/2015 10:15 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > More likely, apply the technology used on some 9 Track drives: a little > tension arm and then use servos to drive the supply and takeup reels, > and an encoder (*not* driven) that measures speed (in place of the > capstan on older drives). Maybe--I know the method--you see it on some Cipher drives and it's even on my tape cleaning machine. A capstan-pinch roller, I think is no worse and might actually help with wrinkled QIC tapes that have made a mess inside of a QIC cartridge when their tension belts have rotted out. --Chuck From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 16:12:26 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 14:12:26 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0CE6CCC9-910C-48DE-AAC0-C22D9146415F@gmail.com> Thanks Al, I downloaded the assembler just in case. And to Chuck's point, it always felt like the MSDN distribution was a poorly documented, disorganized mess. I was not impressed. The old Turbo C and new Watcom C are available freely for DOS 16 bit and people say very good things of both. Marc > From: Chuck Guzis > >> On 08/14/2015 12:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> last 16 bit compiler is visual C++ 1.52c >> >> also ran across MASM 8 >> >> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=12654 >> >> if you need it > Schizophrenic MS labeling. The C++ suite is 1.52c, but the compiler > identifies itself as 8.00c. Crazy. > > --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Sun Aug 16 17:18:12 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 17:18:12 -0500 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D10C24.1050805@charter.net> On 8/16/2015 9:00 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > We did a lot more debugging on the TC12 LINCtape controller. > > We saw a 500ns glitch in the LMU MOTION signal that corresponded to a short > slowdown in tape speed. We will investigate this next week. > > We entered the LINC instruction to check a single block (0707) in the left > switches and a block number (0777-0000) in the right switches. When we > pressed the DO key it should go to that block on the LINCtape. With large > block numbers (07xx) and with the tape positioned half way through the tape > it worked OK. With lower block numbers it sometimes could not find the > block and searched back-and-forth on the tape. The logic analyzer showed > that the block numbers were correct in a sequence of several blocks, and > then it will read a bad block number. The TC12 would tell the TU55 to turn > around, it would read a good block number, realize that it was going the > wrong direction, and turn the tape around. It would then read a good block > number, and then a bad block number, and turn around. > Just a gut hunch, based on the symptoms. Could you have a bit pick or drop in the block number in the TC12? Given the behavior, one might bet on a bit pick. Perhaps intermittent. Second gut hunch is that it would be hard to see how the drive could cause this UNLESS the TC12 uses one side of the redundant tape channels in one direction, and the other side in the other direction. Will be interesting to hear what you really find. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Sun Aug 16 17:20:56 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 17:20:56 -0500 Subject: QIC-24 data analysis In-Reply-To: <55D0F0EA.4000701@sydex.com> References: <55CF4B98.3020604@bitsavers.org> <55D0B809.4070105@sydex.com> <55D0C524.5040900@charter.net> <55D0F0EA.4000701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D10CC8.50300@charter.net> On 8/16/2015 3:22 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/16/2015 10:15 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> > >> More likely, apply the technology used on some 9 Track drives: a little >> tension arm and then use servos to drive the supply and takeup reels, >> and an encoder (*not* driven) that measures speed (in place of the >> capstan on older drives). > > Maybe--I know the method--you see it on some Cipher drives and it's even > on my tape cleaning machine. A capstan-pinch roller, I think is no > worse and might actually help with wrinkled QIC tapes that have made a > mess inside of a QIC cartridge when their tension belts have rotted out. > > --Chuck > > One issue with the capstan idea, though, would be direction. Capstans really want to pull. Not very good a pushing. ;) So if you did that, and you wanted to direction operation (required if you can't stream the entire tape), then you'd need two sets of capstans like the big IBM and the like 7 and 9 track tape drives had. From cctalk at fahimi.net Sun Aug 16 17:26:50 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 15:26:50 -0700 Subject: No XT-IDE users? Message-ID: Wow, I know it's not a DEC PDP but I was hoping at least a few people used the darn thing. Would it be better if I post in VCF? Thanks for any input. -Ali From ik at yvanj.me Sun Aug 16 18:23:06 2015 From: ik at yvanj.me (Yvan Janssens) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 00:23:06 +0100 Subject: No XT-IDE users? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D11B5A.2070106@yvanj.me> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Hi, I have used it yes, and I'm actually quite happy with it - it wasn't that hard for me to get the PCBs; I just uploaded them to one of the PCB prototyping services out there (forgot which one, it has been a while already, and brain cells get rusty) and piggy-backed on a friend's order at Farnell. I have mine in an IBM 5150 with a CF card and it works stable and smooth, and I'd certainly recommend it. My machine was retrofitted with an ST-412, which had passed away by the time the machine reached me and this provided to be a useful alternative. If I recall correctly I couldn't find the exact flash part mentioned in the BoM I had for my model, and I managed to swap it out with a similarly spec'ed (but higher capacity) model. Y. On 16/08/2015 23:26, Ali wrote: > Wow, I know it's not a DEC PDP but I was hoping at least a few > people used the darn thing. Would it be better if I post in VCF? > Thanks for any input. -Ali > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJV0RtaAAoJEElyT3Tqk/Mc/joH/ip5mPRLy5zq9OTZNxOWZtJ/ d+2hS3XHjm1Qeb2O+xLd6caGZOjN6+KSgtkJTah4QIzGo1wevojO7cKvCKhM6MJ6 6QV1YWd9bnKvMGe53Tio2+YSx8J2ectqgfZykEqznvgQqB1Z8NVIRy2MfjI/KgGm W3sKhXj8zau2Nl8/PHubNZsaUAf4z5iTeQwBrvWxUv7gUGASMA9yucQD2WgDINHf 1Io9Dh+S9J7x6PXg77cOHkS8EB59R919qmsYcN6nz45EX9XsBUreFp+hJ+XvZdXB o1KjmOVEC+8W39DWkCg/0TbaZlWi6AS/WrR3GM810z/1iYxF/43yiiEfCBEHU7g= =N8Pf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 16 18:25:50 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 16:25:50 -0700 Subject: No XT-IDE users? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D11BFE.3020303@sydex.com> On 08/16/2015 03:26 PM, Ali wrote: > Wow, I know it's not a DEC PDP but I was hoping at least a few people > used the darn thing. Would it be better if I post in VCF? Thanks for > any input. -Ali Probably. I have both the original and the one (can't remember the name) with the CPLD on it. Both worked well for me--and I modified the original to juggle the addressing bits to make the "Chuck mod". I've always used my own version of the BIOS; I've always felt that the more elaborate BIOSes, while interesting and reflecting a lot of work, were unnecessarily complicated. I"ll help if I can, but I haven't played much with the thing in a couple of years+. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 16 18:29:11 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 16:29:11 -0700 Subject: QIC-24 data analysis In-Reply-To: <55D10CC8.50300@charter.net> References: <55CF4B98.3020604@bitsavers.org> <55D0B809.4070105@sydex.com> <55D0C524.5040900@charter.net> <55D0F0EA.4000701@sydex.com> <55D10CC8.50300@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D11CC7.9060906@sydex.com> On 08/16/2015 03:20 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > One issue with the capstan idea, though, would be direction. > Capstans really want to pull. Not very good a pushing. ;) So if > you did that, and you wanted to direction operation (required if you > can't stream the entire tape), then you'd need two sets of capstans > like the big IBM and the like 7 and 9 track tape drives had. Or CDC... :) Or maybe just a tachometer and let the reel motors do the work. QIC data is pretty much self-clocking (but for those HP 2-track drives). Still mulling it over--the number of QIC cartridges I've had to handle has gone down substantially over the years. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 18:31:42 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 19:31:42 -0400 Subject: No XT-IDE users? In-Reply-To: <55D11BFE.3020303@sydex.com> References: <55D11BFE.3020303@sydex.com> Message-ID: I don't have a need for it, yet anyway Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Aug 16, 2015 7:26 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 08/16/2015 03:26 PM, Ali wrote: > >> Wow, I know it's not a DEC PDP but I was hoping at least a few people >> used the darn thing. Would it be better if I post in VCF? Thanks for >> any input. -Ali >> > > Probably. I have both the original and the one (can't remember the name) > with the CPLD on it. Both worked well for me--and I modified the original > to juggle the addressing bits to make the "Chuck mod". > > I've always used my own version of the BIOS; I've always felt that the > more elaborate BIOSes, while interesting and reflecting a lot of work, were > unnecessarily complicated. > > I"ll help if I can, but I haven't played much with the thing in a couple > of years+. > > --Chuck > > > > From useddec at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 19:06:34 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 19:06:34 -0500 Subject: LPSXX-AD NIB Message-ID: I found several of these while digging. Any interest? Please contact me off list. Paul From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 19:20:38 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 19:20:38 -0500 Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) Message-ID: As the proud owner of an NtM Osborne 1 computer, courtesy of our own Jules Richardson (and another list member), I made no delay in opening the case to install a missing CPU. Jules was kind enough to let me know about the missing part prior to handing the old girl over to me. I'm sure you've already figured out what happened - unaware that the Z84C series was CMOS, that's what went into the Osborne's CPU socket. The machine came to life with a garbage display and howling on-board beeper. Tried resetting it a few times, all I got was more and different noise & garbage. That's when I shut down and did some reading - initially, I thought it might be a clock speed issue - sometimes 'faster' chips won't run at slower clock rates. What I did learn is that Z-80 were made in CMOS versions, and the Z84C is one. So what did I most likely do, here? Hose the CPU for sure? Collateral damage on the board? Both / Neither? As ever, it's what you don't get, that gets you. From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Aug 16 19:34:58 2015 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 17:34:58 -0700 Subject: No XT-IDE users? Message-ID: Be fun to have identified controller for first ibm pc to demo it Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: william degnan Date: 08/16/2015 4:31 PM (GMT-07:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: No XT-IDE users? I don't have a need for it, yet anyway Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Aug 16, 2015 7:26 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 08/16/2015 03:26 PM, Ali wrote: > >> Wow, I know it's not a DEC PDP but I was hoping at least a few people >> used the darn thing. Would it be better if I post in VCF? Thanks for >> any input. -Ali >> > > Probably.? I have both the original and the one (can't remember the name) > with the CPLD on it.? Both worked well for me--and I modified the original > to juggle the addressing bits to make the "Chuck mod". > > I've always used my own version of the BIOS; I've always felt that the > more elaborate BIOSes, while interesting and reflecting a lot of work, were > unnecessarily complicated. > > I"ll help if I can, but I haven't played much with the thing in a couple > of years+. > > --Chuck > > > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 19:44:01 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 20:44:01 -0400 Subject: No XT-IDE users? References: Message-ID: <9CD9C49A00E54F5081D46DDF190B9565@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ali" To: "CCTalk Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2015 6:26 PM Subject: No XT-IDE users? > Wow, I know it's not a DEC PDP but I was hoping > at least a few people used the darn thing. Would > it be better if I post in VCF? Thanks for any > input. > -Ali ----- Reply ----- Yes. Although I'm no longer welcome there I'd still recommend VCF as the place to go for PC-related questions (next to our Chuck (G) of course ;-) m From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 20:18:02 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 21:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: No XT-IDE users? In-Reply-To: <55D11BFE.3020303@sydex.com> References: <55D11BFE.3020303@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/16/2015 03:26 PM, Ali wrote: >> Wow, I know it's not a DEC PDP but I was hoping at least a few people >> used the darn thing. Would it be better if I post in VCF? Thanks for >> any input. -Ali > > Probably. I have both the original and the one (can't remember the name) > with the CPLD on it. Both worked well for me--and I modified the original to > juggle the addressing bits to make the "Chuck mod". What is the "Chuck mod"? -- From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 16 20:50:39 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 18:50:39 -0700 Subject: No XT-IDE users? In-Reply-To: References: <55D11BFE.3020303@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D13DEF.2020602@sydex.com> On 08/16/2015 06:18 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > What is the "Chuck mod"? I'll try to make this brief (ha!). One of the problems with the original XTIDE is that the data bus on a regular ATA drive is 16 bits. (There used to be a mode that could be set to allow an ATA drive to support 8-bit transfers, but that's long gone from most drives, now almost solely present in the CF interface). So the XTIDE would latch half the 16-bit bus on a read and make it available at a different I/O address IIRC, 8 locations higher). Reading, therefore became a matter of issuing an IN al,dx instruction, storing the byte, then adjusting the address in dx (XCHG DX,some other register) and repeating for the rest of the 16-bit word, adjusting dx again back to the original and looping... I observed that if the addressing of the drive was slightly modified by swapping I/O address bits 0 and 2, one could put the two halves of the 16-bit register ad adjacent I/O addresses and let the 8088 (or V20) BIU handle the input as a word operation. This means that the entire read loop on an 8088 collapses to a "in ax,dx / stosw/ loop" three-instruction sequence. On a V20, it's even simpler "rep insw". The last I recall, writes couldn't use the BIU trick because of the way the latch clocked data to the drive. You can't win 'em all. At least it was no slower than the old way--and code tends to do far more reads than writes. Of course, this results in the other ATA registers being a little out of normal sequence, but that's a simple code change. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 21:29:10 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 20:29:10 -0600 Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 6:20 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > What I did learn is that Z-80 were made in CMOS versions, and the Z84C is > one. > > So what did I most likely do, here? Hose the CPU for sure? Collateral > damage on the board? Both / Neither? Actually it's surprising that the CMOS Z80 didn't work. The CMOS parts are intended to be a drop-in replacement for the NMOS; unless they have an "L" suffix, they are 5V, with TTL-compatible input thresholds. I've replaced NMOS Z80 parts with CMOS equivalents in a number of systems without difficulty. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 21:48:43 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 21:48:43 -0500 Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy Eric, Always a pleasure to hear from you! The Zilog P/N of the chip is "Z84C0008PEC", and it's further marked "Z80 CPU" with a datecode of "8904" - April of 1989? In the interim, I've pulled that chip from the Osborne and replaced it with the 'proper' Z80 from a Timex / Sinclair 1000; I did not record its markings, other than to note that it was produced in late 82, if I recall. The system now behaves better, but issues remain as follows: Started up +sans-KB+, the machine made a slight 'chirp' and a clean display came up with a message to the effect of "Insert disk in drive A and press RETURN". I attached the KB and restarted the machine. This time, the display came up with the same message, but there was something going on with the video.. it was quite flicker-y, with (scanline?) artifacts cruising around the screen. I placed a disk in Drive A and upon pressing RETURN the display immediately stabilized and went into a loop printing "BOOT ERROR" on successive lines, eventually scrolling the original boot message off the top of the display. It did not seem to even attempt seeking the disk - and it behaves the same way, whether or not a disk is in Drive A. Tried this routine several times, with minor alterations, and always the same - straight to the BOOT ERROR scroll and no other activity in the drive. Drive LED was on in all cases. So it seems there's more to this, than just a missing CPU. Hopefully my ham-fisted use of the Z84C hasn't caused any other issues! Oh, and FWIW, the machine seems to have the 1.4 BIOS and the double-density daughtercard on the mainboard. On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 9:29 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 6:20 PM, drlegendre . > wrote: > > What I did learn is that Z-80 were made in CMOS versions, and the Z84C is > > one. > > > > So what did I most likely do, here? Hose the CPU for sure? Collateral > > damage on the board? Both / Neither? > > Actually it's surprising that the CMOS Z80 didn't work. The CMOS parts > are intended to be a drop-in replacement for the NMOS; unless they > have an "L" suffix, they are 5V, with TTL-compatible input thresholds. > I've replaced NMOS Z80 parts with CMOS equivalents in a number of > systems without difficulty. > From cctalk at fahimi.net Sun Aug 16 21:57:29 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 19:57:29 -0700 Subject: No XT-IDE users? In-Reply-To: <9CD9C49A00E54F5081D46DDF190B9565@310e2> References: <9CD9C49A00E54F5081D46DDF190B9565@310e2> Message-ID: <015001d0d898$764227a0$62c676e0$@net> > Yes. > > Although I'm no longer welcome there I'd still > recommend VCF as the place to go for PC-related > questions (next to our Chuck (G) of course ;-) > > m Mike (and everyone else thanks) for the input. That is sort of my feeling as well - this list is geared toward older/bigger systems vs. VCF. That is not to say you don't learn lots of cool things here (which is why I stay active on both sides) but I was hoping that aside from Chuck, Jeff and some of the original designers would be active here as well. I can repost at VCF in hopes of solving the issue. -Ali From cube1 at charter.net Sun Aug 16 23:20:24 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 23:20:24 -0500 Subject: QIC-24 data analysis In-Reply-To: <55D11CC7.9060906@sydex.com> References: <55CF4B98.3020604@bitsavers.org> <55D0B809.4070105@sydex.com> <55D0C524.5040900@charter.net> <55D0F0EA.4000701@sydex.com> <55D10CC8.50300@charter.net> <55D11CC7.9060906@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D16108.6040205@charter.net> On 8/16/2015 6:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/16/2015 03:20 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> One issue with the capstan idea, though, would be direction. >> Capstans really want to pull. Not very good a pushing. ;) So if >> you did that, and you wanted to direction operation (required if you >> can't stream the entire tape), then you'd need two sets of capstans >> like the big IBM and the like 7 and 9 track tape drives had. > > Or CDC... :) > > Or maybe just a tachometer and let the reel motors do the work. QIC > data is pretty much self-clocking (but for those HP 2-track drives). > Exactly. > Still mulling it over--the number of QIC cartridges I've had to handle > has gone down substantially over the years. > > --Chuck > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 16 23:29:39 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 21:29:39 -0700 Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: There is a clear possibility that there are other problems in the unit than the CPU chip. Look at the signals on the buss to see if they all look proper. I'm suspecting something load on the buss. Dwight From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 23:33:06 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 22:33:06 -0600 Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 8:48 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > The Zilog P/N of the chip is "Z84C0008PEC", and it's further marked "Z80 > CPU" with a datecode of "8904" - April of 1989? Assuming that your Z84C00 is not damaged, I think there's one difference that might make it not work in a circuit that works with the NMOS Z80. The clock input signal of the Z80 CPU, either NMOS or CMOS, is *not* TTL-compatible, but rather has a Vihc min spec of Vcc-0.6V, which for a 5V supply is 4.4V. Back in the day, many Z80 system designers ignored that problem, and drove the Z80 clock input from a normal TTL gate, which was marginal at best since the TTL Voh min spec is only 2.4V. In practice, you could usually get away with that in a 2.5 MHz design (original Z80), but at 4 MHz or higher it tended to be noticeably unreliable. The Mostek Z80 databook gives suggested drive circuits; I imagine that the Zilog documentation must have also. Anyhow, even though the Vihc spec is the same for NMOS and CMOS, the NMOS part might better tolerate a clock input that didn't reach as high as the spec. The other thing that could do it is if the circuit might have been designed such that a Z80 with very short clock-to-signal delays wouldn't work. That would be bad design since the Z80 has never had a minimum spec for those delays, so in such a case even a 6 or 8 MHz NMOS part might not work. From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sun Aug 16 23:29:14 2015 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 21:29:14 -0700 Subject: No XT-IDE users? In-Reply-To: <015001d0d898$764227a0$62c676e0$@net> References: <9CD9C49A00E54F5081D46DDF190B9565@310e2> <015001d0d898$764227a0$62c676e0$@net> Message-ID: Ali, Definitely post at VCF. Hargle (Jeff) is usually lurking around. Krille has been active in the development of the newer BIOS versions and might be able to lend some insight. I have an ancient Rev-1 XT-IDE that I use regularly, but that BIOS is ancient so I have no experience with the error that you are seeing. Mike On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Ali wrote: > > Yes. > > > > Although I'm no longer welcome there I'd still > > recommend VCF as the place to go for PC-related > > questions (next to our Chuck (G) of course ;-) > > > > m > > Mike (and everyone else thanks) for the input. That is sort of my feeling > as well - this list is geared toward older/bigger systems vs. VCF. That is > not to say you don't learn lots of cool things here (which is why I stay > active on both sides) but I was hoping that aside from Chuck, Jeff and some > of the original designers would be active here as well. I can repost at VCF > in hopes of solving the issue. > > -Ali > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 17 00:13:10 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 05:13:10 +0000 Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [Replacement Z80 in an Osborne] > What I did learn is that Z-80 were made in CMOS versions, and the Z84C is > one. > > So what did I most likely do, here? Hose the CPU for sure? Collateral > damage on the board? Both / Neither? Most likely neither (unless you put the CPU in the wrong way round or zapped something with static -- CMOS _and_ NMOS parts can be damaged that way). If the CPU is fast enough for the clock speed in that machine then most likely a CMOS one will work without problems. My guess is that the missing CPU was not the only fault. You now have a good CPU but problems elsewhere (clock, ROM, RAM, support logic...). Time to grab the logic analyser :-) -tony From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 17 00:29:27 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 01:29:27 -0400 Subject: MARCH's Straight 8 restoration notes Message-ID: <55D17137.7030900@snarc.net> The RICM PDP-12 thread made me realize that I (nor I think David Gesswein) ever posted our PDP-8 notes here. (We did post a link to the Youtube video of the ceremony at VCF East.) Anyway, here are David's notes: http://www.pdp8.net/shows/vcfe15/slides/PDP-8_Restoration.html and also his exhibit notes here: http://www.pdp8.net/shows/vcfe15/vcfe15.shtml. From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 00:48:06 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 00:48:06 -0500 Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the input, gents.. Sigh.. and here I sit, yet again, with neither a logic analyzer nor a decent digital scope. Unless something comes up, looks like I'll have to do it the hard way, as usual - heh. At least the machine doesn't have a totally scrambled brain, with the correct CPU - so it will be easier to work through things, as I can at least partially communicate with the hardware if needed. Well, except for the lack of bootable media.. Anyone have a spare Z-80? Or some bootable media for the Osborne 1? I have a few CP/M machines here, but I don't think any of them can write media for the Osborne. Even so, I'd need a way to get the Oz disk images to the machine of choice.. and that's another huge hurdle. Help a brother out.. I need some bootstrap media!! ;-) On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 12:13 AM, tony duell wrote: > [Replacement Z80 in an Osborne] > > > > What I did learn is that Z-80 were made in CMOS versions, and the Z84C is > > one. > > > > So what did I most likely do, here? Hose the CPU for sure? Collateral > > damage on the board? Both / Neither? > > Most likely neither (unless you put the CPU in the wrong way round or > zapped > something with static -- CMOS _and_ NMOS parts can be damaged that way). > > If the CPU is fast enough for the clock speed in that machine then most > likely > a CMOS one will work without problems. > > My guess is that the missing CPU was not the only fault. You now have a > good > CPU but problems elsewhere (clock, ROM, RAM, support logic...). Time to > grab > the logic analyser :-) > > -tony > From cctalk at fahimi.net Mon Aug 17 01:29:00 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 23:29:00 -0700 Subject: No XT-IDE users? In-Reply-To: References: <9CD9C49A00E54F5081D46DDF190B9565@310e2> <015001d0d898$764227a0$62c676e0$@net> Message-ID: <016001d0d8b6$01e72f40$05b58dc0$@net> > Ali, > > Definitely post at VCF. Hargle (Jeff) is usually lurking around. > Krille has been active in the development of the newer BIOS versions > and might be able to lend some insight. > > I have an ancient Rev-1 XT-IDE that I use regularly, but that BIOS is > ancient so I have no experience with the error that you are seeing. > > > Mike Thanks Mike. I already started a thread over at VCF. Hopefully, the hive mind can help me figure it out. -Ali From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com Mon Aug 17 01:32:03 2015 From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 16:32:03 +1000 Subject: Help needed please re possible loss of a Burroughs B7800 CPU Message-ID: Hi Evan and others who might have been wondering, I managed to find out what happened to the Burroughs B7800 that was "under the stairs" at Monash university. The good news is that the interesting parts, namely the indicator panels, have been saved by the Monash Museum of Computing History. They also retrieved the VAX 11/780 that was there too, and it is now in storage. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Aug 17 05:32:50 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 06:32:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) Message-ID: <20150817103250.6235818C0E0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: drlegendre > Sigh.. and here I sit, yet again, with neither a logic analyzer I've bought Tek 1240's (which are really nice units, although of course without the capabilities of today's - but still a lot more powerful than the earliest LA's) on eBay for as little as $25 (albeit without leads), and I gather there are modern units which plug into a PC with a UCB port for not much more money. Yes, a lot of the older machines were built without benefit of them (pretty much all their builders had was 'scopes), but there are so many things where one cannot easily create a 'scope loop, and for investigating those, a logic analayzer is the perfect tool. It's just a critical tool to have if one is going to _repair_ old computers - only slightly less critical than a VOM. No ifs, ands or buts. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Aug 17 05:37:27 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 06:37:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: No XT-IDE users? Message-ID: <20150817103727.23B4018C0E0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ali Fahimi > Wow, I know it's not a DEC PDP Hah! Don't feel too bad. I've lost count of the number of PDP-11 questions which I've brought here, only to hear a resounding silence (most recent case on point, my query about Clearpoint DCME/Q4E's). Noel From tsg at bonedaddy.net Mon Aug 17 10:03:26 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 11:03:26 -0400 Subject: No XT-IDE users? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150817150326.GY6471@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Ali [150816 18:27]: > Wow, I know it's not a DEC PDP but I was hoping at least a few people used the darn thing. Would it be better if I post in VCF? Thanks for any input. > -Ali I have the boards available for sale (I do a board run and keep some around in case someone wants them) but haven't done much myself with it. I do think the response would probably be better on VCF. Todd From cube1 at charter.net Mon Aug 17 10:42:06 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 10:42:06 -0500 Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D200CE.1000003@charter.net> On 8/17/2015 12:48 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > Thanks for the input, gents.. > > Sigh.. and here I sit, yet again, with neither a logic analyzer nor a > decent digital scope. Unless something comes up, looks like I'll have to do > it the hard way, as usual - heh. > Do you at least have a logic probe and a 20Mhz analog 'scope? > At least the machine doesn't have a totally scrambled brain, with the > correct CPU - so it will be easier to work through things, as I can at > least partially communicate with the hardware if needed. Well, except for > the lack of bootable media.. > > Anyone have a spare Z-80? Or some bootable media for the Osborne 1? I have > a few CP/M machines here, but I don't think any of them can write media for > the Osborne. Even so, I'd need a way to get the Oz disk images to the > machine of choice.. and that's another huge hurdle. > > Help a brother out.. I need some bootstrap media!! ;-) > My solution to that kind of issue has been my SD Card HxC floppy simulator, available on eBay or direct from www.lotharek.pl . Info on the design available at http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/ . Then I go looking out on the 'net at bitsavers and other locations for floppy images for whatever system I am working on. JRJ From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Aug 17 12:33:54 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 19:33:54 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 Message-ID: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi guys, I'm fiddeling around for hours now to get an M3119-YA CXY08 Multiplexer to work in my VAX4000/300 on VMS7.3. The Card is properly detected it seems.. Device Device Error Name Status Count FTA0: Offline 0 OPA0: Online 0 TNA0: Offline 0 TNA2: Online 0 TXA0: Online 4 TXA1: Online 0 TXA2: Online 0 TXA3: Online 7 TXA4: Online 0 TXA5: Online 0 TXA6: Online 0 TXA7: Online 0 VTA0: Offline 0 . SYSGEN> SH/CONF System CSR and Vectors on 17-AUG-2015 19:17:01.69 Name: PAA Units: 1 Nexus:0 (CI ) Name: PAB Units: 1 Nexus:1 (CI ) Name: EZA Units: 4 Nexus:2 (NI ) Name: PUA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 772150 Vector1: 154 Vector2: 000 Name: PTA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 774500 Vector1: 260 Vector2: 000 Name: PTB Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760404 Vector1: 300 Vector2: 000 Name: TXA Units: 8 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760440 Vector1: 310 Vector2: 314 SYSGEN> ..and it is the first card left of the CPU in the QBUS Backplane followed from an working CQD200/TM. AThe DIP Switches are set like the standard in some CXY08 Manual, the MUX is set to DHU11 programming model. I've first tried to connect a serial line pronter with no luck so I've tried to connect a 2nd VT420 and have no luck again. I know of the meaning of the several modem control signals and how they should be wired, have connected such a "null modem RS232 device" that shorts 4 to 5 and 6+8 to 20. I've tried to copy data from a file to the lines and I have shorted 2+3 of the Muxer Pins from the line and done a SET HOST/DTE/ESC=E TXA0:,allt that ends with an timeout writing to the lines and the lines acting identically, regardles which one I try to use. $ copy SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM txa3: %COPY-E-WRITEERR, error writing TXA3:[]SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM;5 -RMS-F-WER, file write error -SYSTEM-F-TIMEOUT, device timeout %COPY-W-NOTCMPLT, SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM;5 not completely copied $ sh term txa3 Terminal: _TXA3: Device_Type: Unknown Owner: No Owner Input: 9600 LFfill: 0 Width: 80 Parity: None Output: 9600 CRfill: 0 Page: 24 Terminal Characteristics: Interactive Echo Type_ahead No Escape No Hostsync TTsync Lowercase No Tab Wrap Scope No Remote No Eightbit Broadcast No Readsync No Form Fulldup Modem No Local_echo Autobaud No Hangup No Brdcstmbx No DMA No Altypeahd Set_speed No Commsync Line Editing Overstrike editing No Fallback No Dialup No Secure server No Disconnect No Pasthru No Syspassword No SIXEL Graphics No Soft Characters No Printer Port Numeric Keypad No ANSI_CRT No Regis No Block_mode No Advanced_video No Edit_mode No DEC_CRT No DEC_CRT2 No DEC_CRT3 No DEC_CRT4 No DEC_CRT5 No Ansi_Color VMS Style Input $ Depending on set term/modem or set term/printer the modem control lines are changing the level, that's ok. But I can't get a single character printed to the terminal which I have verified with an USB to serial cable already, the terminal is ok and I have an LED-Analyzer for RS232 between the RS232 Plugs.. Since I'm a total VMS Noob I now have some Questions: .. have I missed something? .. is the CXY08 bad? .. what could I try next? ...is there some diagnosting software for the CXY08 existing for VMS and if yes, where can I get it? Thanks in advance, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Aug 17 12:40:55 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 19:40:55 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-17 19:33, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hi guys, > > I'm fiddeling around for hours now to get an M3119-YA CXY08 > Multiplexer to work in my VAX4000/300 on VMS7.3. > > The Card is properly detected it seems.. > > > Device Device Error > Name Status Count > FTA0: Offline 0 > OPA0: Online 0 > TNA0: Offline 0 > TNA2: Online 0 > TXA0: Online 4 > TXA1: Online 0 > TXA2: Online 0 > TXA3: Online 7 > TXA4: Online 0 > TXA5: Online 0 > TXA6: Online 0 > TXA7: Online 0 > VTA0: Offline 0 > . > > SYSGEN> SH/CONF > > System CSR and Vectors on 17-AUG-2015 19:17:01.69 > > Name: PAA Units: 1 Nexus:0 (CI ) > Name: PAB Units: 1 Nexus:1 (CI ) > Name: EZA Units: 4 Nexus:2 (NI ) > Name: PUA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 772150 Vector1: 154 Vector2: 000 > Name: PTA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 774500 Vector1: 260 Vector2: 000 > Name: PTB Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760404 Vector1: 300 Vector2: 000 > Name: TXA Units: 8 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760440 Vector1: 310 Vector2: 314 > SYSGEN> > > ..and it is the first card left of the CPU in the QBUS Backplane followed > from an working CQD200/TM. > AThe DIP Switches are set like the standard in some CXY08 Manual, the MUX > is set to DHU11 programming model. > I've first tried to connect a serial line pronter with no luck so I've > tried to connect a 2nd VT420 and have no luck again. I know of the meaning > of the several modem control signals and how they should be wired, have > connected such a "null modem RS232 device" that shorts 4 to 5 and 6+8 to > 20. I've tried to copy data from a file to the lines and I have shorted 2+3 > of the Muxer Pins from the line and done a SET HOST/DTE/ESC=E TXA0:,allt > that ends with an timeout writing to the lines and the lines acting > identically, regardles which one I try to use. > > $ copy SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM txa3: > %COPY-E-WRITEERR, error writing TXA3:[]SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM;5 > -RMS-F-WER, file write error > -SYSTEM-F-TIMEOUT, device timeout > %COPY-W-NOTCMPLT, SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM;5 not completely > copied > > $ sh term txa3 > Terminal: _TXA3: Device_Type: Unknown Owner: No Owner > > Input: 9600 LFfill: 0 Width: 80 Parity: None > Output: 9600 CRfill: 0 Page: 24 > > Terminal Characteristics: > Interactive Echo Type_ahead No Escape > No Hostsync TTsync Lowercase No Tab > Wrap Scope No Remote No Eightbit > Broadcast No Readsync No Form Fulldup > Modem No Local_echo Autobaud No Hangup > No Brdcstmbx No DMA No Altypeahd Set_speed > No Commsync Line Editing Overstrike editing No Fallback > No Dialup No Secure server No Disconnect No Pasthru > No Syspassword No SIXEL Graphics No Soft Characters No Printer Port > Numeric Keypad No ANSI_CRT No Regis No Block_mode > No Advanced_video No Edit_mode No DEC_CRT No DEC_CRT2 > No DEC_CRT3 No DEC_CRT4 No DEC_CRT5 No Ansi_Color > VMS Style Input > $ > > Depending on set term/modem or set term/printer the modem control lines are > changing the level, that's ok. But I can't get a single character printed > to the terminal which I have verified with an USB to serial cable already, > the terminal is ok and I have an LED-Analyzer for RS232 between the RS232 > Plugs.. > > Since I'm a total VMS Noob I now have some Questions: > > .. have I missed something? > .. is the CXY08 bad? > .. what could I try next? > ...is there some diagnosting software for the CXY08 existing for VMS > and if yes, where can I get it? > > Thanks in advance, Since you have an error count in there, I would expect there to be something in the error log. Might be worth checking what it says... Other than that, I have not tried that specific hardware, but I have seen similar issues when DMA have been non-working. Are you sure the card is in the correct slot? I assume you know about qbus bus continuation, as well as the actual backplane layout, and possibly jumpers that might need to be put one way or another depending on the type of slot, if it is a quad size card... Johnny From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Aug 17 13:18:26 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 20:18:26 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: [..] > > > >Since I'm a total VMS Noob I now have some Questions: > > > >.. have I missed something? > >.. is the CXY08 bad? > >.. what could I try next? > >...is there some diagnosting software for the CXY08 existing for VMS > > and if yes, where can I get it? > > > >Thanks in advance, > > Since you have an error count in there, I would expect there to be > something in the error log. Might be worth checking what it says... I think that errors are exactly what I got on the console, the write error, (timeout writing) but ok, I could check that.. where exactly I should look? (SYS$ERRORLOG:ERRLOG.SYS?) > > Other than that, I have not tried that specific hardware, but I have > seen similar issues when DMA have been non-working. Are you sure the > card is in the correct slot? I assume you know about qbus bus > continuation, as well as the actual backplane layout, and possibly > jumpers that might need to be put one way or another depending on the > type of slot, if it is a quad size card... > > Johnny The VAX4000/300 has a "special" CPU and Memory card cage on the right side and left of it the QBus backplane, at top the DSSI connectors..all on a big Backplane PCB (saw such a beast on Ebay lately). As I already wrote, the multiplexer sits on the backplane in the slot next to the CPU and it is a quad size board. In the next slot left of it at the top sits the CQD200TM which is working fine with disk and CDROM and I think it is using DMA too. This is a double size board, the lower half is only some plastic sheet for mechanical purposes. At the next top slot its the TK70 controller which is working too. That's exactly the order in which I got the machine, don't think that there is something wrong with that order and there is no gap between the boards besides ot the 2nd lower slot (plastic sheet). Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From scaron at umich.edu Mon Aug 17 12:40:39 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 13:40:39 -0400 Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You should be able to get a replacement NMOS Z80 from Jameco for four or five bucks ... if you put a 5V CMOS Z80 in there, I wouldn't expect it to really hurt anything; it might not run exactly right depending on tolerances in the system design I would suspect mostly due to (a) logic threshold differences and (b) fan-out differences especially given one logic family driving another ... but I wouldn't expect it to really damage anything. I have a mostly working Executive ... logic is OK but the screen will roll when the environmental conditions are just right (probably some caps are getting dodgy, or a cold solder joint) ... it's usable ... I have all the original media and documentation; plenty of bootable floppies; I've got a sleeve of 5.25" blanks and I could run off a few duplicates for you ... not sure if these will work on the Osborne 1 ... if you're in the USA and you want to give some of the media from the Executive a shot, maybe I could help you out. Best, Sean On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 1:48 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > Thanks for the input, gents.. > > Sigh.. and here I sit, yet again, with neither a logic analyzer nor a > decent digital scope. Unless something comes up, looks like I'll have to do > it the hard way, as usual - heh. > > At least the machine doesn't have a totally scrambled brain, with the > correct CPU - so it will be easier to work through things, as I can at > least partially communicate with the hardware if needed. Well, except for > the lack of bootable media.. > > Anyone have a spare Z-80? Or some bootable media for the Osborne 1? I have > a few CP/M machines here, but I don't think any of them can write media for > the Osborne. Even so, I'd need a way to get the Oz disk images to the > machine of choice.. and that's another huge hurdle. > > Help a brother out.. I need some bootstrap media!! ;-) > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 12:13 AM, tony duell > wrote: > > > [Replacement Z80 in an Osborne] > > > > > > > What I did learn is that Z-80 were made in CMOS versions, and the Z84C > is > > > one. > > > > > > So what did I most likely do, here? Hose the CPU for sure? Collateral > > > damage on the board? Both / Neither? > > > > Most likely neither (unless you put the CPU in the wrong way round or > > zapped > > something with static -- CMOS _and_ NMOS parts can be damaged that way). > > > > If the CPU is fast enough for the clock speed in that machine then most > > likely > > a CMOS one will work without problems. > > > > My guess is that the missing CPU was not the only fault. You now have a > > good > > CPU but problems elsewhere (clock, ROM, RAM, support logic...). Time to > > grab > > the logic analyser :-) > > > > -tony > > > From scaron at umich.edu Mon Aug 17 12:48:16 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 13:48:16 -0400 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Have you tried just a "quick-n-dirty" serial cable with only TXD, RXD and GND wired? Sometimes trying to accommodate all those modem control lines will just lead you down the rabbit hole ... Just a thought. Best, Sean On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-17 19:33, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >> Hi guys, >> >> I'm fiddeling around for hours now to get an M3119-YA CXY08 >> Multiplexer to work in my VAX4000/300 on VMS7.3. >> >> The Card is properly detected it seems.. >> >> >> Device Device Error >> Name Status Count >> FTA0: Offline 0 >> OPA0: Online 0 >> TNA0: Offline 0 >> TNA2: Online 0 >> TXA0: Online 4 >> TXA1: Online 0 >> TXA2: Online 0 >> TXA3: Online 7 >> TXA4: Online 0 >> TXA5: Online 0 >> TXA6: Online 0 >> TXA7: Online 0 >> VTA0: Offline 0 >> . >> >> SYSGEN> SH/CONF >> >> System CSR and Vectors on 17-AUG-2015 19:17:01.69 >> >> Name: PAA Units: 1 Nexus:0 (CI ) >> Name: PAB Units: 1 Nexus:1 (CI ) >> Name: EZA Units: 4 Nexus:2 (NI ) >> Name: PUA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 772150 Vector1: 154 >> Vector2: 000 >> Name: PTA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 774500 Vector1: 260 >> Vector2: 000 >> Name: PTB Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760404 Vector1: 300 >> Vector2: 000 >> Name: TXA Units: 8 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760440 Vector1: 310 >> Vector2: 314 >> SYSGEN> >> >> ..and it is the first card left of the CPU in the QBUS Backplane followed >> from an working CQD200/TM. >> AThe DIP Switches are set like the standard in some CXY08 Manual, the MUX >> is set to DHU11 programming model. >> I've first tried to connect a serial line pronter with no luck so I've >> tried to connect a 2nd VT420 and have no luck again. I know of the meaning >> of the several modem control signals and how they should be wired, have >> connected such a "null modem RS232 device" that shorts 4 to 5 and 6+8 to >> 20. I've tried to copy data from a file to the lines and I have shorted >> 2+3 >> of the Muxer Pins from the line and done a SET HOST/DTE/ESC=E TXA0:,allt >> that ends with an timeout writing to the lines and the lines acting >> identically, regardles which one I try to use. >> >> $ copy SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM txa3: >> %COPY-E-WRITEERR, error writing TXA3:[]SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM;5 >> -RMS-F-WER, file write error >> -SYSTEM-F-TIMEOUT, device timeout >> %COPY-W-NOTCMPLT, SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM;5 not completely >> copied >> >> $ sh term txa3 >> Terminal: _TXA3: Device_Type: Unknown Owner: No Owner >> >> Input: 9600 LFfill: 0 Width: 80 Parity: None >> Output: 9600 CRfill: 0 Page: 24 >> >> Terminal Characteristics: >> Interactive Echo Type_ahead No Escape >> No Hostsync TTsync Lowercase No Tab >> Wrap Scope No Remote No Eightbit >> Broadcast No Readsync No Form Fulldup >> Modem No Local_echo Autobaud No Hangup >> No Brdcstmbx No DMA No Altypeahd Set_speed >> No Commsync Line Editing Overstrike editing No Fallback >> No Dialup No Secure server No Disconnect No Pasthru >> No Syspassword No SIXEL Graphics No Soft Characters No Printer >> Port >> Numeric Keypad No ANSI_CRT No Regis No Block_mode >> No Advanced_video No Edit_mode No DEC_CRT No DEC_CRT2 >> No DEC_CRT3 No DEC_CRT4 No DEC_CRT5 No Ansi_Color >> VMS Style Input >> $ >> >> Depending on set term/modem or set term/printer the modem control lines >> are >> changing the level, that's ok. But I can't get a single character printed >> to the terminal which I have verified with an USB to serial cable already, >> the terminal is ok and I have an LED-Analyzer for RS232 between the RS232 >> Plugs.. >> >> Since I'm a total VMS Noob I now have some Questions: >> >> .. have I missed something? >> .. is the CXY08 bad? >> .. what could I try next? >> ...is there some diagnosting software for the CXY08 existing for VMS >> and if yes, where can I get it? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> > > Since you have an error count in there, I would expect there to be > something in the error log. Might be worth checking what it says... > > Other than that, I have not tried that specific hardware, but I have seen > similar issues when DMA have been non-working. Are you sure the card is in > the correct slot? I assume you know about qbus bus continuation, as well as > the actual backplane layout, and possibly jumpers that might need to be put > one way or another depending on the type of slot, if it is a quad size > card... > > Johnny > > From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Aug 17 13:51:11 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 18:51:11 +0000 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: <55D10C24.1050805@charter.net> References: <55D10C24.1050805@charter.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBB6B30@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jay Jaeger Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2015 3:18 PM On 8/16/2015 9:00 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> We did a lot more debugging on the TC12 LINCtape controller. > Second gut hunch is that it would be hard to see how the drive could > cause this UNLESS the TC12 uses one side of the redundant tape channels > in one direction, and the other side in the other direction. Not possible. The *drive* wire-ORs the redundant channels, before the data goes into (or after it comes out of) the controller. *That's* the redundancy. When reading in the reverse direction, only the mark tracks on a DECtape read the same way backwards as forwards; LINCtape uses a different set of markers. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 13:55:59 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 12:55:59 -0600 Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Sean Caron wrote: >if you put a 5V CMOS Z80 in there, I wouldn't expect it to > really hurt anything; it might not run exactly right depending on > tolerances in the system design I would suspect mostly due to (a) logic > threshold differences and (b) fan-out differences especially given one > logic family driving another ... but I wouldn't expect it to really damage > anything. While that tends to be true for CMOS parts in general, the CMOS Z80 was designed to meet the same I/O specs (voltages and fanount) as the NMOS part. It's possible that the NMOS part has more margin for operation outside the specs, particularly for Vih and Vihc, but is the computer is designed properly that shouldn't matter. From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Aug 17 14:01:04 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 21:01:04 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150817190104.GB17678@beast.freibergnet.de> Sean Caron wrote: > Have you tried just a "quick-n-dirty" serial cable with only TXD, RXD and > GND wired? Sometimes trying to accommodate all those modem control lines > will just lead you down the rabbit hole ... Just a thought. > > Best, > > Sean > > Yes, tried this with XON/XOFF setting only (hostcontrol?) ...doesn't work.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 14:08:02 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 12:08:02 -0700 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <20150817190104.GB17678@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817190104.GB17678@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: You don't say so asking just to be sure, are you using standard BC19N four port breakout cables with the CXY08? From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 17 14:23:53 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:23:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Executive shipped with CP/M Plus 3.0, in SSDD format. The Osborne 1 required a double-density option to read DD disks. I don't recall that the CP/M Plus 3.0 would even run on the Osborne 1, at least not on my systems. Depending on whether the double-density option is installed on his machine, it might require someone with a system that will write a single-density boot disk for him. On Mon, 17 Aug 2015, Sean Caron wrote: > ... > I have a mostly working Executive ... logic is OK but the screen will roll > when the environmental conditions are just right (probably some caps are > getting dodgy, or a cold solder joint) ... it's usable ... I have all the > original media and documentation; plenty of bootable floppies; I've got a > sleeve of 5.25" blanks and I could run off a few duplicates for you ... not > sure if these will work on the Osborne 1 ... if you're in the USA and you > want to give some of the media from the Executive a shot, maybe I could > help you out. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 1:48 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> Thanks for the input, gents.. >> >> Sigh.. and here I sit, yet again, with neither a logic analyzer nor a >> decent digital scope. Unless something comes up, looks like I'll have to do >> it the hard way, as usual - heh. >> >> At least the machine doesn't have a totally scrambled brain, with the >> correct CPU - so it will be easier to work through things, as I can at >> least partially communicate with the hardware if needed. Well, except for >> the lack of bootable media.. >> >> Anyone have a spare Z-80? Or some bootable media for the Osborne 1? I have >> a few CP/M machines here, but I don't think any of them can write media for >> the Osborne. Even so, I'd need a way to get the Oz disk images to the >> machine of choice.. and that's another huge hurdle. >> >> Help a brother out.. I need some bootstrap media!! ;-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Aug 17 14:26:37 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 21:26:37 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817190104.GB17678@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20150817192637.GC17678@beast.freibergnet.de> Glen Slick wrote: > You don't say so asking just to be sure, are you using standard BC19N four > port breakout cables with the CXY08? Yes, BC19N-12 is the label.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Aug 17 14:37:00 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 12:37:00 -0700 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: <20150817103250.6235818C0E0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150817103250.6235818C0E0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <01C01140-868F-4AD6-96EC-FAA81D13538A@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Aug-17, at 3:32 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: drlegendre > >> Sigh.. and here I sit, yet again, with neither a logic analyzer > > I've bought Tek 1240's (which are really nice units, although of course > without the capabilities of today's - but still a lot more powerful than the > earliest LA's) on eBay for as little as $25 (albeit without leads), and I > gather there are modern units which plug into a PC with a UCB port for not > much more money. > > Yes, a lot of the older machines were built without benefit of them (pretty > much all their builders had was 'scopes), but there are so many things where > one cannot easily create a 'scope loop, and for investigating those, a logic > analayzer is the perfect tool. > > It's just a critical tool to have if one is going to _repair_ old computers - > only slightly less critical than a VOM. No ifs, ands or buts. Well, a DSO (i.e. any modern scope) obviates the need to create scope loops in servicing as we used to have to do with analog/non-storage scopes. I suffered with a low-end Tek analog scope until a few years ago; have been using a Tek DSO for the last few years. While there are occasions I'd like to have an LA, I can't say there are any instances where I've had to have an LA (I still don't have one). From a usefulness perspective I'd get a DSO long before an LA. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 17 14:54:19 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 19:54:19 +0000 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: <01C01140-868F-4AD6-96EC-FAA81D13538A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20150817103250.6235818C0E0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <01C01140-868F-4AD6-96EC-FAA81D13538A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > From a usefulness perspective I'd get a DSO long before an LA. What you use is a personal choice IMHO. I've used DSOs (never owned one), both HP and Tektronix and never really liked them. I use an analogue 'scope only rarely in classic computer repair. But my (many) logic analysers are used almost all the time. As I said, personal choice, what works for you is what you should use. One thing though. No piece of test gear will do more than provide evidence of what the circuit is doing. It will not tell you 'U38 is faulty' or whatever. You still need a good understanding of the circuit, how it should work and what you should be seeing so you can tell if the 'scope or LA traces are right or wrong. -tony From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 15:01:56 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 14:01:56 -0600 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: <01C01140-868F-4AD6-96EC-FAA81D13538A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20150817103250.6235818C0E0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01C01140-868F-4AD6-96EC-FAA81D13538A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I suffered with a low-end Tek analog scope until a few years ago; have been using a Tek DSO for the last few years. > > While there are occasions I'd like to have an LA, I can't say there are any instances where I've had to have an LA (I still don't have one). > From a usefulness perspective I'd get a DSO long before an LA. I'd generally agree. In my experience, during development of new digital hardware of any complexity, both a DSO and a LA are extremely helpful, but for diagnosing failures of previously working hardware, the DSO is usually more important. If a person has any reasonable business justification, a Rigol MSO1104Z mixed-signal oscilliscope (100 MHz four-channel DSO with integral 16-channel logic analyzer) is under $1000, and for another $230 you can get the model with the -S suffix, which also includes a two-channel waveform generator. I generally don't recommend cheap Chinese test equipment, but the Rigol stuff is actually pretty good. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 15:07:54 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 14:07:54 -0600 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: <20150817103250.6235818C0E0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01C01140-868F-4AD6-96EC-FAA81D13538A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 1:54 PM, tony duell wrote: > One thing though. No piece of test gear will do more than provide evidence of > what the circuit is doing. It will not tell you 'U38 is faulty' or whatever. In principle that was where HP was trying to go with signature analysis back in the 1970s. The problem has since been solved by making the entire product a single FRU (Field Replaceable Unit). "He fixes radios by THINKING!" - Someone who had a young Richard Feynman fix his radio, as quoted in his autobiography _Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman! (Adventures of a Curious Character)_ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Aug 17 15:11:48 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 16:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) Message-ID: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > If a person has any reasonable business justification But a lot of the people here don't; they're purely hobbyists. So spending $1K on a piece of test equipment just isn't realistic for them. Having said that, I do see some DSO's on eBay for not much money (e.g. the little hand-held ones), and those might be a good alternative to a logic analyzer - I never used one, so I tend not to think of them. Noel From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 17 15:16:28 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 13:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Aug 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Eric Smith > > > If a person has any reasonable business justification > > But a lot of the people here don't; they're purely hobbyists. So spending > $1K on a piece of test equipment just isn't realistic for them. > > Having said that, I do see some DSO's on eBay for not much money (e.g. the > little hand-held ones), and those might be a good alternative to a logic > analyzer - I never used one, so I tend not to think of them. > I scored a Rigol DS1102E for $219 last week. It needs two new rotary encoders, but it did pass all the self-tests. Repair parts were under $3. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 15:20:57 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:20:57 -0500 Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From my inspection, it seems that this machine does have the DD option. The tech manual mentions that the DD upgrade includes a small daughterboard mounted on the mainboard, and the v1.4 ROM, which I assume contains the DD driver code in the BDOS. Both a daughterboard (with a data cable to the floppy drives) and the ROM are present in the machine. By all appearances, it's a late version. The unit was sold the day before Christmas in 1982. Based on their brisk sales at that point, the unit was probably built within a few weeks of the sale date. It also has the final two-piece molded plastic case with dark blue bezel. To answer a couple of earlier questions - yes, I have a logic probe / pulser set and a 20Mhz analog scope. First order of business is to get some known-good media, before I start thinking too much about what might be wrong with it. On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > The Executive shipped with CP/M Plus 3.0, in SSDD format. The Osborne > 1 required a double-density option to read DD disks. I don't recall that > the CP/M Plus 3.0 would even run on the Osborne 1, at least not on my > systems. Depending on whether the double-density option is installed on > his machine, it might require someone with a system that will write a > single-density boot disk for him. > > On Mon, 17 Aug 2015, Sean Caron wrote: > > ... >> I have a mostly working Executive ... logic is OK but the screen will roll >> when the environmental conditions are just right (probably some caps are >> getting dodgy, or a cold solder joint) ... it's usable ... I have all the >> original media and documentation; plenty of bootable floppies; I've got a >> sleeve of 5.25" blanks and I could run off a few duplicates for you ... >> not >> sure if these will work on the Osborne 1 ... if you're in the USA and you >> want to give some of the media from the Executive a shot, maybe I could >> help you out. >> >> Best, >> >> Sean >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 1:48 AM, drlegendre . >> wrote: >> >> Thanks for the input, gents.. >>> >>> Sigh.. and here I sit, yet again, with neither a logic analyzer nor a >>> decent digital scope. Unless something comes up, looks like I'll have to >>> do >>> it the hard way, as usual - heh. >>> >>> At least the machine doesn't have a totally scrambled brain, with the >>> correct CPU - so it will be easier to work through things, as I can at >>> least partially communicate with the hardware if needed. Well, except for >>> the lack of bootable media.. >>> >>> Anyone have a spare Z-80? Or some bootable media for the Osborne 1? I >>> have >>> a few CP/M machines here, but I don't think any of them can write media >>> for >>> the Osborne. Even so, I'd need a way to get the Oz disk images to the >>> machine of choice.. and that's another huge hurdle. >>> >>> Help a brother out.. I need some bootstrap media!! ;-) >>> >> > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 15:22:48 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:22:48 -0500 Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> On 08/16/2015 09:48 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > I placed a disk in Drive A and upon pressing RETURN the display immediately > stabilized and went into a loop printing "BOOT ERROR" on successive lines, > eventually scrolling the original boot message off the top of the display. Hey, I dug out that machine's 'twin', and it does the same there (just to verify that there's nothing odd about that behavior). > It did not seem to even attempt seeking the disk - and it behaves the same > way, whether or not a disk is in Drive A. Tried this routine several times, > with minor alterations, and always the same - straight to the BOOT ERROR > scroll and no other activity in the drive. > > Drive LED was on in all cases. OK... behavior on mine (with no disk present) is that the drives spin, the heads step in and out repeatedly, and the LED stays on. Do you hear the drives spin at all? If not, perhaps check for 12V at the PSU. I don't have schematics for the system handy, but it wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't use +12V for the drive motors (spindle and head) and maybe some of the auxiliary logic (e.g. modem and RS232), but not for the 'core' logic - so a lack of 12V might give the symptoms you're seeing. If it does have +12V, make sure it's getting to the drives - my memory's hazy, but I think there's a little power distribution harness/board in these systems, so there's some potential there for faults (broken wires, dirty connectors etc.) cheers Jules From jsw at ieee.org Mon Aug 17 15:26:53 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:26:53 -0500 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: A few quick thoughts: 1) Bad non-name USB/Serial converter. I have one that won?t speak to a MVII console or certain non-DEC DLV11J cards 2) LED Analyzer is pulling too much current on the lines 3) Bad +-15 volt converter on board. Do you see any activity on control signals or send line? Try a voltmeter instead of the LEDs. 4) $Set term txa3:/nottsync/perm/noninteractive in case the port has picked up a control-s? and try to copy the file again. > On Aug 17, 2015, at 1:18 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > [..] >>> >>> Since I'm a total VMS Noob I now have some Questions: >>> >>> .. have I missed something? >>> .. is the CXY08 bad? >>> .. what could I try next? >>> ...is there some diagnosting software for the CXY08 existing for VMS >>> and if yes, where can I get it? >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >> >> Since you have an error count in there, I would expect there to be >> something in the error log. Might be worth checking what it says... > > I think that errors are exactly what I got on the console, the write error, > (timeout writing) but ok, I could check that.. where exactly I should look? > (SYS$ERRORLOG:ERRLOG.SYS?) > >> >> Other than that, I have not tried that specific hardware, but I have >> seen similar issues when DMA have been non-working. Are you sure the >> card is in the correct slot? I assume you know about qbus bus >> continuation, as well as the actual backplane layout, and possibly >> jumpers that might need to be put one way or another depending on the >> type of slot, if it is a quad size card... >> >> Johnny > > The VAX4000/300 has a "special" CPU and Memory card cage on the right > side and left of it the QBus backplane, at top the DSSI connectors..all > on a big Backplane PCB (saw such a beast on Ebay lately). > As I already wrote, the multiplexer sits on the backplane in the slot next > to the CPU and it is a quad size board. In the next slot left of it at the > top sits the CQD200TM which is working fine with disk and CDROM and I think > it is using DMA too. This is a double size board, the lower half is only some > plastic sheet for mechanical purposes. > At the next top slot its the TK70 controller which is working too. > That's exactly the order in which I got the machine, don't think that there > is something wrong with that order and there is no gap between the boards > besides ot the 2nd lower slot (plastic sheet). > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 15:31:46 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:31:46 -0500 Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Jules, Ah, so your O1 also has the weird screen artifacts prior to hitting 'return'? Weird.. wonder what's up with that? I've only detected activity from drive A (LH side). It definitely does spin, the LED lights up, but I haven't been able to detect any head movement. You mention that the head on yours steps back & forth (indefinitely?) with no disk present - does it behave any differently when the drive door is open vs. closed? In any case, one of us needs to find boot media.. and put some copies in the mail. I have one bootable CP/M machine, a Kaypro 10 - also an Epson QX-10 is here, but iirc it had some issues booting last time I tried it. Might be possible to write media for the Osborne on one of those? (Not bloody likely, but a solution needs to be found). Thanks again for passing this one along to me.. very thoughtful of you! On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 08/16/2015 09:48 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> I placed a disk in Drive A and upon pressing RETURN the display >> immediately >> stabilized and went into a loop printing "BOOT ERROR" on successive lines, >> eventually scrolling the original boot message off the top of the display. >> > > Hey, > > I dug out that machine's 'twin', and it does the same there (just to > verify that there's nothing odd about that behavior). > > It did not seem to even attempt seeking the disk - and it behaves the same >> way, whether or not a disk is in Drive A. Tried this routine several >> times, >> with minor alterations, and always the same - straight to the BOOT ERROR >> scroll and no other activity in the drive. >> >> Drive LED was on in all cases. >> > > OK... behavior on mine (with no disk present) is that the drives spin, the > heads step in and out repeatedly, and the LED stays on. > > Do you hear the drives spin at all? If not, perhaps check for 12V at the > PSU. I don't have schematics for the system handy, but it wouldn't surprise > me if it doesn't use +12V for the drive motors (spindle and head) and maybe > some of the auxiliary logic (e.g. modem and RS232), but not for the 'core' > logic - so a lack of 12V might give the symptoms you're seeing. > > If it does have +12V, make sure it's getting to the drives - my memory's > hazy, but I think there's a little power distribution harness/board in > these systems, so there's some potential there for faults (broken wires, > dirty connectors etc.) > > cheers > > Jules > > > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 17 15:39:30 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 16:39:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> Message-ID: Just so you know, you can boot an Osborne 1 from the B: drive by pressing " (shift and double-quote) instead of . Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ On Mon, 17 Aug 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > Hey Jules, > > Ah, so your O1 also has the weird screen artifacts prior to hitting > 'return'? Weird.. wonder what's up with that? > > I've only detected activity from drive A (LH side). It definitely does > spin, the LED lights up, but I haven't been able to detect any head > movement. You mention that the head on yours steps back & forth > (indefinitely?) with no disk present - does it behave any differently when > the drive door is open vs. closed? From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 15:41:30 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:41:30 -0500 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: The DSO has been high on my want list for some time now.. But that said, I made it through several Commodore machines & drives, the CRT display on the Osborne Vixen, the Altair rebuild, several Macs and on, with what I do have on-hand. Lacking a DSO didn't prevent me from getting through that stuff, but I'm sure it slowed me down more than once. On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 3:16 PM, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 17 Aug 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > From: Eric Smith >> >> > If a person has any reasonable business justification >> >> But a lot of the people here don't; they're purely hobbyists. So spending >> $1K on a piece of test equipment just isn't realistic for them. >> >> Having said that, I do see some DSO's on eBay for not much money (e.g. the >> little hand-held ones), and those might be a good alternative to a logic >> analyzer - I never used one, so I tend not to think of them. >> >> I scored a Rigol DS1102E for $219 last week. It needs two new rotary > encoders, but it did pass all the self-tests. Repair parts were under $3. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 15:55:23 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 21:55:23 +0100 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <041f01d0d92f$09f006c0$1dd01440$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa > Sent: 17 August 2015 21:12 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) > > > From: Eric Smith > > > If a person has any reasonable business justification > > But a lot of the people here don't; they're purely hobbyists. So spending $1K > on a piece of test equipment just isn't realistic for them. > > Having said that, I do see some DSO's on eBay for not much money (e.g. the > little hand-held ones), and those might be a good alternative to a logic > analyzer - I never used one, so I tend not to think of them. > > Noel I haven't tried the dedicated DSO's but I have a couple of USB connected ones and a laptop. For value for money I don't think the Hantek 6022 can be beaten. It really only goes to 8Mhz but I see they can be had for $60 - $70 and some sellers have US stock. I also have a 200Mhz one but to be honest for 99% of vintage stuff the Hantek is fine. It is only 8-bit, it is a bit noisy, but its small enough to slip in the laptop bag, it doesn't need a separate PSU... Dave Wade G4UGM From cube1 at charter.net Mon Aug 17 16:10:28 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 16:10:28 -0500 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <55D24DC4.1090805@charter.net> On 8/17/2015 1:18 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > [..] >>> >>> Since I'm a total VMS Noob I now have some Questions: >>> >>> .. have I missed something? >>> .. is the CXY08 bad? >>> .. what could I try next? >>> ...is there some diagnosting software for the CXY08 existing for VMS >>> and if yes, where can I get it? >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >> >> Since you have an error count in there, I would expect there to be >> something in the error log. Might be worth checking what it says... > > I think that errors are exactly what I got on the console, the write error, > (timeout writing) but ok, I could check that.. where exactly I should look? > (SYS$ERRORLOG:ERRLOG.SYS?) > Timeout: Is it perhaps expecting an interrupt but doesn't get one in a reasonable amount of time? Maybe something wrong in the interrupt grant chain? Do you have an empty slot above this board into which you need to insert a grant continuity card? JRJ From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Aug 17 16:11:07 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 23:11:07 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> Jerry Weiss wrote: > A few quick thoughts: > > 1) Bad non-name USB/Serial converter. I have one that won?t speak to a MVII console or certain non-DEC DLV11J cards ...sorry, USB in a DEC VT420 _and_ an Bull Compuprint 970? (http://www.computer-makarow.de/images/product_images/popup_images/431_0.jpg Image stolen from the web..) I've only checked the VT420 with the USB Adapter connected to the Notebook and it was working as expected. I haven't connected the USB Adapter to the VAX. > 2) LED Analyzer is pulling too much current on the lines :-| ... and it only does this on the MUX. Still not clear why it doesn't work w/o the LED Gadget. > 3) Bad +-15 volt converter on board. Do you see any activity on control signals or send line? Try a voltmeter instead of the LEDs. It think I can even use one of the Scopes.. but the LED's are bright, all of them and the modem control signals are toggeling with the terminal line settings.. Regardless of this, even with a broken DC/DC converter and NO Device connected to the lines, It should be possible to write to the port if it is set to software flow control..but it doesn't. The write times out. > 4) $Set term txa3:/nottsync/perm/noninteractive > in case the port has picked up a control-s? and try to copy the file again. ..and again and again. I don't post here after a single failurre, I've wrote that I tried for hours, tried several ports and I've rebooted the VAX many times. Sorry, none of those. It is really not that simple. I think about a possibly defective clock XTAL Oscillator on the MUX Board. The Board logic and the "Registers" may be clocked from the QBus, but the I think the UARTs gettings her clock from the Oscillator since it has a Baud rate frequency (14,7456 MHz). Otherwise I've got single LF's and CR's on the VT420 from time to time, but no other characters.. I'll check that. Please give me a hint how exactly I should setup a line, no problem for me on unix with stty ..but I don't know much about VMS... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Aug 17 16:13:21 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 23:13:21 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <55D24DC4.1090805@charter.net> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D24DC4.1090805@charter.net> Message-ID: <20150817211321.GE17678@beast.freibergnet.de> Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 8/17/2015 1:18 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > [..] > >>> > >>> Since I'm a total VMS Noob I now have some Questions: > >>> > >>> .. have I missed something? > >>> .. is the CXY08 bad? > >>> .. what could I try next? > >>> ...is there some diagnosting software for the CXY08 existing for VMS > >>> and if yes, where can I get it? > >>> > >>> Thanks in advance, > >> > >> Since you have an error count in there, I would expect there to be > >> something in the error log. Might be worth checking what it says... > > > > I think that errors are exactly what I got on the console, the write error, > > (timeout writing) but ok, I could check that.. where exactly I should look? > > (SYS$ERRORLOG:ERRLOG.SYS?) > > > > Timeout: Is it perhaps expecting an interrupt but doesn't get one in a > reasonable amount of time? Maybe something wrong in the interrupt > grant chain? Do you have an empty slot above this board into which you > need to insert a grant continuity card? > > JRJ Hey Guys...please read what I'already wrote to this problem. Therie is no hole between the CPU and the MUX. And yes, it feels like DMA or Interrupt Timeout, that's why I think that the clock crystal may be broken.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From bensinc at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 16:43:54 2015 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 16:43:54 -0500 Subject: RLV11 Debugging Message-ID: Now that I (hopefully) have my PDP 11/23 running (it passes CPU and memory tests, anyway), I've been messing with my RLV11 so I can use my RL02. For a first step, I'm trying to run the VRLBC0 diskless diagnostic to check the controller. I checked that the address and vector switches are set to the defaults according to he manual, and also verified them with a multimeter. The manual says the default vector address is 330, though the diagnostics default to 160. I tried it both ways with the same result, though I should be on 330. I'm not actually sure what "BR LEVEL" refers to, so I left that at the default. This is a PDP 11/23 with an H-9273 backplane. I have the M8186, M8067, M8043, then the two RLV11 boards, M8013 and M8014, then an M8012. Here's a sample run. It appears to start, but never does anything else. If I give it a bad address it does complain, so I think I have the switches correct. Does anyone know what I might try next? Thanks! .R VRLBC0 VRLBC0.BIC DRSSM-G2 CVRLB-C-0 RLV12 DISKLESS UNIT IS RLV12, RLV11, OR RL11 RSTRT ADR 145702 DR>START CHANGE HW (L) ? Y # UNITS (D) ? 1 UNIT 0 RLV12 (L) Y ? N RLV11 (L) Y ? Y CSR ADDRESS (O) 174400 ? VECTOR (O) 160 ? 330 BR LEVEL (O) 4 ? CHANGE SW (L) ? Y ERROR LIMIT FOR AUTO-DROP (D) 0 ? ALL REMAINING QUERIES ARE FOR OPTIONAL (MANUFACTURING) G5388 TEST-LOOP-MODULE SET-UP. USE <^Z> TO BYPASS. G5388 TLM INSTALLED (L) N ? N MMU AVAILABLE MEMORY SIZE 124 KW 18 BIT ADDRESSING -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 17:04:56 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 17:04:56 -0500 Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55D25A88.5020704@gmail.com> On 08/17/2015 03:31 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Hey Jules, > > Ah, so your O1 also has the weird screen artifacts prior to hitting > 'return'? Weird.. wonder what's up with that? No, sorry! I meant the "boot error" scrolling up the screen (e.g. it's not the result of some kind of stuck key fault or anything). > I've only detected activity from drive A (LH side). As Mike mentioned, try the shift-quote trick and see if the other drive behaves differently. > It definitely does > spin, the LED lights up, but I haven't been able to detect any head > movement. You mention that the head on yours steps back & forth > (indefinitely?) with no disk present - does it behave any differently when > the drive door is open vs. closed? It's the same whether the door is open or closed. Probably indefinite - I got bored after a couple of minutes of listening to drive heads crunching :-) > In any case, one of us needs to find boot media.. Aha - I have it now... *somewhere*. I just didn't have any about a year ago when I stopped goofing around with the system that you now have. Unfortunately I don't immediately know where my CP/M disks are; Wordstar and the xdiags disk were in one of the little cubby areas below the drives, so I'm not sure why I didn't leave the CP/M disks there, too. IIRC I got mine from images on Dave Dunfield's site and wrote them on a PC (but you'll need a PC with a controller capable of writing FM density). My todo list is about nine miles long right now, but I can probably rustle you a set of disks eventually if nobody else gets there first! cheers Jules From jsw at ieee.org Mon Aug 17 17:20:47 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 17:20:47 -0500 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: Sorry if some of the suggestions aren?t appropriate, was just throwing a few things out. $analyze/error/since=today/full/include=tx Can you post a sample of the output for one of the lines that has an error? Regards, Jerry > On Aug 17, 2015, at 4:11 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Jerry Weiss wrote: > >> A few quick thoughts: >> >> 1) Bad non-name USB/Serial converter. I have one that won?t speak to a MVII console or certain non-DEC DLV11J cards > > ...sorry, USB in a DEC VT420 _and_ an Bull Compuprint 970? > (http://www.computer-makarow.de/images/product_images/popup_images/431_0.jpg > Image stolen from the web..) > > I've only checked the VT420 with the USB Adapter connected to the Notebook > and it was working as expected. I haven't connected the USB Adapter to the VAX. > >> 2) LED Analyzer is pulling too much current on the lines > > :-| > > ... and it only does this on the MUX. Still not clear why it doesn't work > w/o the LED Gadget. > >> 3) Bad +-15 volt converter on board. Do you see any activity on control signals or send line? Try a voltmeter instead of the LEDs. > > It think I can even use one of the Scopes.. but the LED's are bright, all > of them and the modem control signals are toggeling with the terminal line > settings.. > Regardless of this, even with a broken DC/DC converter and NO Device > connected to the lines, It should be possible to write to the port if it is > set to software flow control..but it doesn't. The write times out. > >> 4) $Set term txa3:/nottsync/perm/noninteractive >> in case the port has picked up a control-s? and try to copy the file again. > > ..and again and again. I don't post here after a single failurre, I've > wrote that I tried for hours, tried several ports and I've rebooted > the VAX many times. > > Sorry, none of those. It is really not that simple. > > I think about a possibly defective clock XTAL Oscillator on the MUX Board. > The Board logic and the "Registers" may be clocked from the QBus, but the > I think the UARTs gettings her clock from the Oscillator since it has a > Baud rate frequency (14,7456 MHz). Otherwise I've got single LF's and CR's > on the VT420 from time to time, but no other characters.. I'll check that. > > Please give me a hint how exactly I should setup a line, no problem for me > on unix with stty ..but I don't know much about VMS... > > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 17 17:26:42 2015 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:26:42 -0700 Subject: Freight recommendation for a teletype? Message-ID: Hi Classiccmp, I just purchased a ASR 33 teletype and now stuck with the problem of getting it here, its in Wisconsin and I am in LA. Its pickup, the owner will not pack and ship. Do you know of a freight company that will put it on a pallet, band it with care and take care of the shipping? Randy From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 17:33:38 2015 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 17:33:38 -0500 Subject: Freight recommendation for a teletype? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Randy, One option might be UShip. These are best transported laying down once the paper and tape spindles are removed and preferably, that shipping screws anchor down the chassis (though I have moved them without). With UShip, you set an asking price with parameters, such as blanket wrap, or covered shipping. Everyone from professionals to those with room to spare in their SUV can then ask questions, accept the terms, or counter-offer. They don't get paid until you've received the item and are satisfied. With items like this, I almost prefer a private individual rather than a professional (bulk) mover. -C On Aug 17, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > Hi Classiccmp, > > I just purchased a ASR 33 teletype and now stuck with the problem of getting it here, its in Wisconsin and I am in LA. > > Its pickup, the owner will not pack and ship. > > Do you know of a freight company that will put it on a pallet, band it with care and take care of the shipping? > > Randy From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Aug 17 17:14:16 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 23:14:16 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 17 Aug 2015 23:11:07 +0200" <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <01PPO3ET1XMK0084J5@beyondthepale.ie> Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Please give me a hint how exactly I should setup a line, no problem for me > on unix with stty ..but I don't know much about VMS... > I've never seen this particular arrangement so I am just guessing here, based on experience with other VAX terminal setups. The terminal settings you quoted in a different message look ok except for modem control being enabled. When this is the case, VMS will want to see the right modem control signals from a real modem or something very like one. Some serial controllers do not support modem control signals and cannot be used without disabling the setting, even if you have a modem. Try this: $ SET TERMINAL TXA3 /NOMODEM /PERMANENT $ SET TERMINAL TXA3 /NOMODEM It might also help to eliminate another variable by disabling autobaud: $ SET TERMINAL TXA3 /NOAUTOBAUD /PERMANENT The other important setting to have right is Type_ahead but you already have that. Once you turn off modem control and autobaud and have Type_ahead enabled, when you press return on a terminal connected with just TX, RX and ground, you should get a banner and a username: prompt or maybe possibly just a username prompt if everything is working normally. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 17 17:39:22 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:39:22 -0700 Subject: Freight recommendation for a teletype? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D2629A.7000108@sydex.com> On 08/17/2015 03:26 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > Hi Classiccmp, > > I just purchased a ASR 33 teletype and now stuck with the problem of > getting it here, its in Wisconsin and I am in LA. > > Its pickup, the owner will not pack and ship. > > Do you know of a freight company that will put it on a pallet, band > it with care and take care of the shipping? I've heard lots of good stuff about these guys: https://www.cratersandfreighters.com/ --Chuck From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Mon Aug 17 17:40:31 2015 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 22:40:31 +0000 Subject: MP3000's Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E769FB5D12@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Anyone here pick up the two MP3000's on PublicSurplus for $99/ea? From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 17:44:08 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 17:44:08 -0500 Subject: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: <55D25A88.5020704@gmail.com> References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> <55D25A88.5020704@gmail.com> Message-ID: Any sense of what PC models / controllers are capable of this task? Despite my recent comments to the contrary, I just recalled that I do, in fact, have a few old and (iirc) working PCs around here. Here's what I think I have available. Please - anyone who might know - tell me if one will fit the bill? All have at least 1 - 5.25" drive. 1) Compaq Portable III (286 @ 12 MHz?) 2) Tandy 1000 EX (XT clone, I think) 3) IBM 5155 luggable (PC or XT?) 4) Another portable XT clone, with an IR remote keyboard and a tip-out LCD screen. Can't recall the brand, same size as a Compaq Portable II/III Heck, there might be more. In fact there's also a 5120 and a 5145 but those are both big lugs and would need a proper setup and sufficient real-estate on already corwded work tables. How did I forget I had all this stuff?! On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 5:04 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 08/17/2015 03:31 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> Hey Jules, >> >> Ah, so your O1 also has the weird screen artifacts prior to hitting >> 'return'? Weird.. wonder what's up with that? >> > > No, sorry! I meant the "boot error" scrolling up the screen (e.g. it's not > the result of some kind of stuck key fault or anything). > > I've only detected activity from drive A (LH side). >> > > As Mike mentioned, try the shift-quote trick and see if the other drive > behaves differently. > > It definitely does >> spin, the LED lights up, but I haven't been able to detect any head >> movement. You mention that the head on yours steps back & forth >> (indefinitely?) with no disk present - does it behave any differently >> when >> the drive door is open vs. closed? >> > > It's the same whether the door is open or closed. Probably indefinite - I > got bored after a couple of minutes of listening to drive heads crunching > :-) > > In any case, one of us needs to find boot media.. >> > > Aha - I have it now... *somewhere*. I just didn't have any about a year > ago when I stopped goofing around with the system that you now have. > Unfortunately I don't immediately know where my CP/M disks are; Wordstar > and the xdiags disk were in one of the little cubby areas below the drives, > so I'm not sure why I didn't leave the CP/M disks there, too. > > IIRC I got mine from images on Dave Dunfield's site and wrote them on a PC > (but you'll need a PC with a controller capable of writing FM density). My > todo list is about nine miles long right now, but I can probably rustle you > a set of disks eventually if nobody else gets there first! > > cheers > > Jules > > From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Mon Aug 17 17:52:04 2015 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:52:04 -0700 Subject: Creating 5.25" floppies In-Reply-To: References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> <55D25A88.5020704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <690EE985-3454-457C-8692-704706FA427A@fozztexx.com> On Aug 17, 2015, at 3:44 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Any sense of what PC models / controllers are capable of this task? Anything that will run ImageDisk or Teledisk will work. It doesn?t necessarily have to be one of those computers, you could pull the 360k drives from one of them and hook them into a ?newer? PC that still has 5.25? 360k floppy support. There?s usually 360k floppy support on motherboards up to the Pentium III era. I personally use an old ABIT KT7A-RAID board which has a controller which is capable of writing single-density/FM disks. I?ve got a half-height 5.25? 360k drive in it connected as drive B and a 3.5? 1.44M as drive A. I?ve used it quite often to create disks from my original TRS-80 Model I which can only do SSSD. I?ve also used it to make disks for the Kaypro and even make disks for my HP-150 which uses single-sided 3.5? disks. -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 18:07:46 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 19:07:46 -0400 Subject: MP3000's In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E769FB5D12@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E769FB5D12@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: Not me. -- Will On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 6:40 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Anyone here pick up the two MP3000's on PublicSurplus for $99/ea? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 17 18:09:41 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 16:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Creating 5.25" floppies In-Reply-To: <690EE985-3454-457C-8692-704706FA427A@fozztexx.com> References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> <55D25A88.5020704@gmail.com> <690EE985-3454-457C-8692-704706FA427A@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: >> Any sense of what PC models / controllers are capable of this task? On Mon, 17 Aug 2015, Chris Osborn wrote: > Anything that will run ImageDisk or Teledisk will work. It doesn?t > necessarily have to be one of those computers, you could pull the 360k > drives from one of them and hook them into a ?newer? PC that still > has 5.25? 360k floppy support. There?s usually 360k floppy support > on motherboards up to the Pentium III era. There are plenty of PCs that can run ImageDisk and/or Teledisk that CAN NOT do single density (FM). Neither of those pieces of software alter the hardware capabilities of the machine. > I personally use an old ABIT KT7A-RAID board which has a controller > which is capable of writing single-density/FM disks. I?ve got a > half-height 5.25? 360k drive in it connected as drive B and a 3.5? > 1.44M as drive A. I?ve used it quite often to create disks from my > original TRS-80 Model I which can only do SSSD. I?ve also used it to > make disks for the Kaypro and even make disks for my HP-150 which uses > single-sided 3.5? disks. It is good that YOUR machine has FM/single-density capability. And, yes, if your machine can do TRS-80 Model 1, then it can do Osborne single density - those two machine use almost the same physical format (except for D.A.M. issues on TRS-80). The first day that I saw an Osborne, I looked at sectors on those disks using Superzap (Model 1 Newdos), and Trakcess. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 18:15:25 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 18:15:25 -0500 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: <041f01d0d92f$09f006c0$1dd01440$@gmail.com> References: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <041f01d0d92f$09f006c0$1dd01440$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Dave & All, Could you give a little quick kick-start guide to bit depth & sampling rate on DSOs? It's always kind of stumped me, not that I've ever read deeply into it.. but how is it that you can get any kind of (vertical, right?) resolution out of 8 or even 12-bit samples? Example line of thought - 8 bit sample = 256 possible vertical positions. Even if the screen is low-end (640 x 480) that's almost 2X more height in pixels than samples in an 8-bit sample. So each increment is like 2 pixels tall and seems like it would be awfully blocky and imprecise. Things would seem to get even worse if you try to do maths functions.. I must be viewing this quite wrong? On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > > Chiappa > > Sent: 17 August 2015 21:12 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > > Subject: Re: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) > > > > > From: Eric Smith > > > > > If a person has any reasonable business justification > > > > But a lot of the people here don't; they're purely hobbyists. So spending > $1K > > on a piece of test equipment just isn't realistic for them. > > > > Having said that, I do see some DSO's on eBay for not much money (e.g. > the > > little hand-held ones), and those might be a good alternative to a logic > > analyzer - I never used one, so I tend not to think of them. > > > > Noel > > > I haven't tried the dedicated DSO's but I have a couple of USB connected > ones and a laptop. For value for money I don't think the Hantek 6022 can > be > beaten. It really only goes to 8Mhz but I see they can be had for $60 - $70 > and some sellers have US stock. I also have a 200Mhz one but to be honest > for 99% of vintage stuff the Hantek is fine. It is only 8-bit, it is a bit > noisy, but its small enough to slip in the laptop bag, it doesn't need a > separate PSU... > > Dave Wade > G4UGM > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 17 18:25:44 2015 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 16:25:44 -0700 Subject: Freight recommendation for a teletype? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Thanks Cory, I listed it with UShip, and will wait to see what happens. This was a great idea, I never heard of such a 'crowd-sourced' shipping service before. Randy > Subject: Re: Freight recommendation for a teletype? > From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 17:33:38 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Randy, > > One option might be UShip. These are best transported laying down once the paper and tape spindles are removed and preferably, that shipping screws anchor down the chassis (though I have moved them without). With UShip, you set an asking price with parameters, such as blanket wrap, or covered shipping. Everyone from professionals to those with room to spare in their SUV can then ask questions, accept the terms, or counter-offer. They don't get paid until you've received the item and are satisfied. With items like this, I almost prefer a private individual rather than a professional (bulk) mover. -C > > > On Aug 17, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > > Hi Classiccmp, > > > > I just purchased a ASR 33 teletype and now stuck with the problem of getting it here, its in Wisconsin and I am in LA. > > > > Its pickup, the owner will not pack and ship. > > > > Do you know of a freight company that will put it on a pallet, band it with care and take care of the shipping? > > > > Randy > From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 18:25:48 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 18:25:48 -0500 Subject: Creating 5.25" floppies In-Reply-To: References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> <55D25A88.5020704@gmail.com> <690EE985-3454-457C-8692-704706FA427A@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: Gents, Do remember that I'm fairly confident this is a DD machine (the described daughterboard and v1.4 ROM are present), so the ability to write +SD+ might not be of concern. It would be nice if the PC could do both, though.. So is there a difference between SD and DD CP/M - Osborne disk images? I mean, other than the obvious storage capacity issue wherein the DD holds roughly 2X the data. If there's such a thing as an "SD" image, can it be written to a DD floppy and still operate correctly? On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Any sense of what PC models / controllers are capable of this task? >>> >> On Mon, 17 Aug 2015, Chris Osborn wrote: > >> Anything that will run ImageDisk or Teledisk will work. It doesn?t >> necessarily have to be one of those computers, you could pull the 360k >> drives from one of them and hook them into a ?newer? PC that still has >> 5.25? 360k floppy support. There?s usually 360k floppy support on >> motherboards up to the Pentium III era. >> > > There are plenty of PCs that can run ImageDisk and/or Teledisk that CAN > NOT do single density (FM). Neither of those pieces of software alter the > hardware capabilities of the machine. > > I personally use an old ABIT KT7A-RAID board which has a controller which >> is capable of writing single-density/FM disks. I?ve got a half-height 5.25? >> 360k drive in it connected as drive B and a 3.5? 1.44M as drive A. I?ve >> used it quite often to create disks from my original TRS-80 Model I which >> can only do SSSD. I?ve also used it to make disks for the Kaypro and even >> make disks for my HP-150 which uses single-sided 3.5? disks. >> > > It is good that YOUR machine has FM/single-density capability. > And, yes, if your machine can do TRS-80 Model 1, then it can do Osborne > single density - those two machine use almost the same physical format > (except for D.A.M. issues on TRS-80). The first day that I saw an > Osborne, I looked at sectors on those disks using Superzap (Model 1 > Newdos), and Trakcess. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 18:29:19 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 00:29:19 +0100 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <041f01d0d92f$09f006c0$1dd01440$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <050b01d0d944$8b24c270$a16e4750$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > drlegendre . > Sent: 18 August 2015 00:15 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) > > Hey Dave & All, > > Could you give a little quick kick-start guide to bit depth & sampling rate on > DSOs? It's always kind of stumped me, not that I've ever read deeply into it.. > but how is it that you can get any kind of (vertical, right?) resolution out of 8 > or even 12-bit samples? Well the 8-bits is around 5mv on a 1volt signal. It draws a thin line that goes up in big(ish) steps. I am off to bed now but will upload some screen shots to my OneDrive so you can see them. You need at least twice the sample rate as the maximum frequency you want to plot, but really to be useful I recon 4 x . So the 6022 samples at 48M samples/second and has 20Mhz bandwidth amps so you probably get usefull displays up 10mhz (ish). > > Example line of thought - 8 bit sample = 256 possible vertical positions. > Even if the screen is low-end (640 x 480) that's almost 2X more height in > pixels than samples in an 8-bit sample. So each increment is like 2 pixels tall > and seems like it would be awfully blocky and imprecise. Things would seem > to get even worse if you try to do maths functions.. > > I must be viewing this quite wrong? > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Dave G4UGM > wrote: > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > > Noel Chiappa > > > Sent: 17 August 2015 21:12 > > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > > > Subject: Re: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) > > > > > > > From: Eric Smith > > > > > > > If a person has any reasonable business justification > > > > > > But a lot of the people here don't; they're purely hobbyists. So > > > spending > > $1K > > > on a piece of test equipment just isn't realistic for them. > > > > > > Having said that, I do see some DSO's on eBay for not much money (e.g. > > the > > > little hand-held ones), and those might be a good alternative to a > > > logic analyzer - I never used one, so I tend not to think of them. > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > I haven't tried the dedicated DSO's but I have a couple of USB > > connected ones and a laptop. For value for money I don't think the > > Hantek 6022 can be beaten. It really only goes to 8Mhz but I see they > > can be had for $60 - $70 and some sellers have US stock. I also have > > a 200Mhz one but to be honest for 99% of vintage stuff the Hantek is > > fine. It is only 8-bit, it is a bit noisy, but its small enough to > > slip in the laptop bag, it doesn't need a separate PSU... > > > > Dave Wade > > G4UGM > > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 18:32:28 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 19:32:28 -0400 Subject: Freight recommendation for a teletype? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would absolutely not ship laying on its side! It is easy to remove unit from pedistal (4 screws), then ship in two boxes. I have shipped 5 or 6 this way. Bill Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Aug 17, 2015 7:25 PM, "Randy Dawson" wrote: > Thanks Cory, > > I listed it with UShip, and will wait to see what happens. > > This was a great idea, I never heard of such a 'crowd-sourced' shipping > service before. > > Randy > > > > > Subject: Re: Freight recommendation for a teletype? > > From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com > > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 17:33:38 -0500 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > Randy, > > > > One option might be UShip. These are best transported laying down once > the paper and tape spindles are removed and preferably, that shipping > screws anchor down the chassis (though I have moved them without). With > UShip, you set an asking price with parameters, such as blanket wrap, or > covered shipping. Everyone from professionals to those with room to spare > in their SUV can then ask questions, accept the terms, or counter-offer. > They don't get paid until you've received the item and are satisfied. With > items like this, I almost prefer a private individual rather than a > professional (bulk) mover. -C > > > > > > On Aug 17, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > > > > Hi Classiccmp, > > > > > > I just purchased a ASR 33 teletype and now stuck with the problem of > getting it here, its in Wisconsin and I am in LA. > > > > > > Its pickup, the owner will not pack and ship. > > > > > > Do you know of a freight company that will put it on a pallet, band it > with care and take care of the shipping? > > > > > > Randy > > > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Aug 17 18:46:30 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 16:46:30 -0700 Subject: Speaking of Creating 5 1/4" floppies Message-ID: <55D27256.2040005@jwsss.com> I wonder if someone can help with a bit of a problem I have. I have a compaq portable 3 system which has a working Pick (Non dos) system on it. It has the 5 1/4" floppy drives on it. I am looking for a bootable floppy or 2 with something like dos 6.x on it and some utility that can read and write disk sectors. Preferably the latter is a nice gui program, but beggers can't be choosers. I need to boot it up from the floppy drive and modify the pick system dictionary to remove the main password. So the change to the system will be surgical, just one sector. If anyone can help, can you send me a note and let me know how I can compensate you for your help. If I really move crap around I may be able to find a system with the 5 1/4" floppies on it, but I'm not sure I could get a program onto the system then out to the 5 1/4" drive and am also looking for suggestions about what disk utility / editor might be useful if anyone has suggestions on that. I'll go ahead and dredge up something soon if I can't get help from somewhere. thanks Jim Stephens From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 17 18:52:56 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 19:52:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Creating 5.25" floppies In-Reply-To: <690EE985-3454-457C-8692-704706FA427A@fozztexx.com> References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> <55D25A88.5020704@gmail.com> <690EE985-3454-457C-8692-704706FA427A@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Aug 2015, Chris Osborn wrote: > On Aug 17, 2015, at 3:44 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> Any sense of what PC models / controllers are capable of this task? > > Anything that will run ImageDisk or Teledisk will work. It doesn?t > necessarily have to be one of those computers, you could pull the 360k > drives from one of them and hook them into a ?newer? PC that still has > 5.25? 360k floppy support. There?s usually 360k floppy support on > motherboards up to the Pentium III era. Dave Dunfield has a test program which determines if your FDC can handle single-density: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm Download the TestFDC program. > I personally use an old ABIT KT7A-RAID board which has a controller > which is capable of writing single-density/FM disks. I?ve got a > half-height 5.25? 360k drive in it connected as drive B and a 3.5? 1.44M > as drive A. I?ve used it quite often to create disks from my original > TRS-80 Model I which can only do SSSD. I?ve also used it to make disks > for the Kaypro and even make disks for my HP-150 which uses single-sided > 3.5? disks. Be advised that not all KT7A boards are created equal. I had one for a while, until I discovered it would NOT write single-density disk images, even though it's listed as supporting SD in Dave Dunfield's registry (same page). I replaced it with an Abit KV8PRO, which takes an Athlon CPU, with onboard 10/100/1000 ethernet, 1 AGP 8X/4X slot, 5 PCI slots, SATA and IDE drive support, and 4 USB ports. No problem with single-density, on either 5-1/4" or 8" drives. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 17 18:57:39 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 16:57:39 -0700 Subject: Creating 5.25" floppies In-Reply-To: References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> <55D25A88.5020704@gmail.com> <690EE985-3454-457C-8692-704706FA427A@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: <55D274F3.5060302@sydex.com> On 08/17/2015 04:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > There are plenty of PCs that can run ImageDisk and/or Teledisk that > CAN NOT do single density (FM). Neither of those pieces of software > alter the hardware capabilities of the machine. It's odd, but later PC floppy support is often better in the FM support mode. For example, a Socket AM2 board is more likely to support FM than, say, Socket 7 one. ISA SCSI adapters with onboard floppy support are always a rich source of good FDCs--in particular Future Domain, Ultrastor Adaptec and DTC and others All tended to use an NSC DP8473 or a variation of it. That means that you actually have 4-floppy support should you need it, albeit with no BIOS support (which doesn't matter to TD, AD or IMD). I've modified a couple of such controllers to support a third drive on a single 34-conductor cable. For whatever it's worth, --Chuck From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 18:58:10 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 19:58:10 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 14, Issue 17 Message-ID: > > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 01:29:27 -0400 > From: Evan Koblentz > Subject: MARCH's Straight 8 restoration notes > > The RICM PDP-12 thread made me realize that I (nor I think David > Gesswein) ever posted our PDP-8 notes here. (We did post a link to the > Youtube video of the ceremony at VCF East.) > > Anyway, here are David's notes: > http://www.pdp8.net/shows/vcfe15/slides/PDP-8_Restoration.html and also > his exhibit notes here: http://www.pdp8.net/shows/vcfe15/vcfe15.shtml. > Evan, It is nice to see documented proof that we are not the only people crazy enough to attempt a restoration of a machine in that condition. The TU20 tape drive that came with the PDP-9 also had a unauthorized mouse upgrade, and several transistors fell off the flip-chips when we touched them. They were Germanium transistors so getting replacements was a challenge. Michael Thompson From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 19:06:51 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 19:06:51 -0500 Subject: Creating 5.25" floppies In-Reply-To: References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> <55D25A88.5020704@gmail.com> <690EE985-3454-457C-8692-704706FA427A@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: <55D2771B.2080408@gmail.com> On 08/17/2015 06:25 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Gents, > > Do remember that I'm fairly confident this is a DD machine (the described > daughterboard and v1.4 ROM are present) Indeedy... :) > so the ability to write +SD+ might > not be of concern. It would be nice if the PC could do both, though.. I've got this hazy memory saying that the boot area (or possibly just the first track?) of the 'DD' CP/M disk might still be FM, though, even though the rest of the disk isn't, and so it needs a FM-capable controller to write out an image. Maybe I'm mixing that up with a different system, though... I went through maybe ten different PCs here looking for one which could write FM, without any luck. Then I stumbled across an ISA multi-I/O card made by Goldstar which has an on-board FDC that *does* work, so that lives in an old Pentium-1 ISA/PCI AT machine with the motherboard's integrated FDC disabled in the BIOS. J. From bqt at softjar.se Mon Aug 17 19:08:43 2015 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 02:08:43 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <20150817211321.GE17678@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D24DC4.1090805@charter.net> <20150817211321.GE17678@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <335DE6A0-485D-46AB-89B0-2788A9550730@softjar.se> Guys. Slow down. It is not a cable error. It is not a terminal error. If the system also had the card already installed before it is also not an installation error. It is also probably not an interrupt error. I can go into more details behind the reasoning for this if people are interested. Holm did mention that the card had been configured as a dhv11. That would suggest that the card has been out, which is why I also wondered about installation. Point is, the backplane here is one with only q-cd slots. Some cards have jumpers that should be set different for q-q or q-cd slots. The dhv11 uses dma for output. No interrupt until all data has been transmitted. Vms shows device errors, and not a single char comes out. The error log can contain much more detail. Someone already provided the command to see the error log. Post what that shows. It might be informative. Broken clock is definitely a possibility. Johnny Holm Tiffe skrev: (17 augusti 2015 23:13:21 CEST) >Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> On 8/17/2015 1:18 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> >> > Johnny Billquist wrote: >> > >> > [..] >> >>> >> >>> Since I'm a total VMS Noob I now have some Questions: >> >>> >> >>> .. have I missed something? >> >>> .. is the CXY08 bad? >> >>> .. what could I try next? >> >>> ...is there some diagnosting software for the CXY08 existing for >VMS >> >>> and if yes, where can I get it? >> >>> >> >>> Thanks in advance, >> >> >> >> Since you have an error count in there, I would expect there to be > >> >> something in the error log. Might be worth checking what it >says... >> > >> > I think that errors are exactly what I got on the console, the >write error, >> > (timeout writing) but ok, I could check that.. where exactly I >should look? >> > (SYS$ERRORLOG:ERRLOG.SYS?) >> > >> >> Timeout: Is it perhaps expecting an interrupt but doesn't get one in >a >> reasonable amount of time? Maybe something wrong in the interrupt >> grant chain? Do you have an empty slot above this board into which >you >> need to insert a grant continuity card? >> >> JRJ > >Hey Guys...please read what I'already wrote to this problem. >Therie is no hole between the CPU and the MUX. >And yes, it feels like DMA or Interrupt Timeout, that's why I think >that >the clock crystal may be broken.. > >Regards, > >Holm -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Aug 17 19:55:10 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:55:10 +1200 Subject: Creating 5.25" floppies In-Reply-To: <55D2771B.2080408@gmail.com> References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> <55D25A88.5020704@gmail.com> <690EE985-3454-457C-8692-704706FA427A@fozztexx.com> <55D2771B.2080408@gmail.com> Message-ID: >I've got this hazy memory saying that the boot area (or possibly just the first track?) of the 'DD' CP/M disk might still be FM, though, even >though the rest of the disk isn't, and so it needs a FM-capable controller to write out an image. Maybe I'm mixing that up with a different system, though.. I think you might be. I have an Osborne 1a with the DD modification. I can make good Osborne boot disks for it in a 360k floppy drive using Imagedisk on my Pentium II. The latter can't write single density at all though. Tez From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 20:34:44 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 20:34:44 -0500 Subject: Speaking of Creating 5 1/4" floppies In-Reply-To: <55D27256.2040005@jwsss.com> References: <55D27256.2040005@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I have a Compaq PIII as well, and I do have bootable DOS media for it. Not sure which vers. are available. There's also a bootable ELKS distro disk (Linux of sorts, for 286). That might be of some utility? I don't recall - does the Port III have a HD? I can't remember, but I get the feeling it does.. On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 6:46 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > I wonder if someone can help with a bit of a problem I have. > > I have a compaq portable 3 system which has a working Pick (Non dos) > system on it. > > It has the 5 1/4" floppy drives on it. I am looking for a bootable floppy > or 2 with something like dos 6.x on it and some utility that can read and > write disk sectors. Preferably the latter is a nice gui program, but > beggers can't be choosers. > > I need to boot it up from the floppy drive and modify the pick system > dictionary to remove the main password. So the change to the system will > be surgical, just one sector. > > If anyone can help, can you send me a note and let me know how I can > compensate you for your help. > > If I really move crap around I may be able to find a system with the 5 > 1/4" floppies on it, but I'm not sure I could get a program onto the system > then out to the 5 1/4" drive and am also looking for suggestions about what > disk utility / editor might be useful if anyone has suggestions on that. > I'll go ahead and dredge up something soon if I can't get help from > somewhere. > > thanks > Jim Stephens > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Aug 17 20:35:51 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 21:35:51 -0400 Subject: Freight recommendation for a teletype? Message-ID: <8aec7.28842914.4303e5f7@aol.com> only think that worries me is some guy in the suv takes a liking to it and "opps" he says " someone took it when I was in the restaurant!" Ed# In a message dated 8/17/2015 4:25:49 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, rdawson16 at hotmail.com writes: Thanks Cory, I listed it with UShip, and will wait to see what happens. This was a great idea, I never heard of such a 'crowd-sourced' shipping service before. Randy > Subject: Re: Freight recommendation for a teletype? > From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 17:33:38 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Randy, > > One option might be UShip. These are best transported laying down once the paper and tape spindles are removed and preferably, that shipping screws anchor down the chassis (though I have moved them without). With UShip, you set an asking price with parameters, such as blanket wrap, or covered shipping. Everyone from professionals to those with room to spare in their SUV can then ask questions, accept the terms, or counter-offer. They don't get paid until you've received the item and are satisfied. With items like this, I almost prefer a private individual rather than a professional (bulk) mover. -C > > > On Aug 17, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > > Hi Classiccmp, > > > > I just purchased a ASR 33 teletype and now stuck with the problem of getting it here, its in Wisconsin and I am in LA. > > > > Its pickup, the owner will not pack and ship. > > > > Do you know of a freight company that will put it on a pallet, band it with care and take care of the shipping? > > > > Randy > = From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Aug 17 20:40:26 2015 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 18:40:26 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a Lockheed SUE? In-Reply-To: <55ecc.7d6aeb20.430017da@aol.com> References: <55ecc.7d6aeb20.430017da@aol.com> Message-ID: <55D28D0A.9040104@mainecoon.com> On 8/14/15 21:19, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > think dcc made a fake dg nova also!? They did; much like the Keronix clone it offered the option of addressing twice as much logical memory by limiting memory reference indirection to one level. I actually have one sitting in my to-restore queue. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 20:42:11 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 20:42:11 -0500 Subject: Creating 5.25" floppies In-Reply-To: References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> <55D25A88.5020704@gmail.com> <690EE985-3454-457C-8692-704706FA427A@fozztexx.com> <55D2771B.2080408@gmail.com> Message-ID: Terry & all, To be clear - SD on a "360K" floppy is 180K? Yes? Also, what's meant by a "1a"? My mainboard is marked "Rev A" but the machine was made in late 1982, so I have a hard time believing it's really the original Ver. A that shipped in the very early units. The board & parts compliment endured multiple revisions, I'd expect a late-82 board to be in the Ver. F range - particularly with a 1.4 ROM. Did they pull first-rev boards and stuff them in the new cases, with latest ROMs and the DD daughtercard? On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 7:55 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > >I've got this hazy memory saying that the boot area (or possibly just the > first track?) of the 'DD' CP/M disk might still be FM, though, even > >though the rest of the disk isn't, and so it needs a FM-capable controller > to write out an image. Maybe I'm mixing that up with a different system, > though.. > > I think you might be. I have an Osborne 1a with the DD modification. I > can make good Osborne boot disks for it in a 360k floppy drive using > Imagedisk on my Pentium II. The latter can't write single density at all > though. > > Tez > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Aug 17 20:42:33 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 21:42:33 -0400 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: <050b01d0d944$8b24c270$a16e4750$@gmail.com> References: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <041f01d0d92f$09f006c0$1dd01440$@gmail.com> <050b01d0d944$8b24c270$a16e4750$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <61728867-03C9-4882-8797-904BCFEF703E@comcast.net> > On Aug 17, 2015, at 7:29 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >> drlegendre . >> Sent: 18 August 2015 00:15 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) >> >> Hey Dave & All, >> >> Could you give a little quick kick-start guide to bit depth & sampling rate on >> DSOs? It's always kind of stumped me, not that I've ever read deeply into it.. >> but how is it that you can get any kind of (vertical, right?) resolution out of 8 >> or even 12-bit samples? > > Well the 8-bits is around 5mv on a 1volt signal. It draws a thin line that goes up in big(ish) steps. I am off to bed now but will upload some screen shots to my OneDrive so you can see them. It depends on the screen resolution. My Tek 602, a rather early (and very large/heavy) DSO, does just fine with 8 bits because the screen is fairly small. Compared to the screen resolution of a typical analog oscilloscope screen, 8 bits is a pretty good choice. You can occasionally find DSOs with higher resolution, but there?s a substantial penalty in sample rate. > You need at least twice the sample rate as the maximum frequency you want to plot, but really to be useful I recon 4 x . So the 6022 samples at 48M samples/second and has 20Mhz bandwidth amps so you probably get usefull displays up 10mhz (ish). Nyquist rule: you need 2x the sample rate of the highest signal frequency. Or more accurately, the bandwidth. That?s the same thing if you start at 0 Hz, but if you?re sampling a piece of spectrum, you only need 2x the bandwidth of the band in question, not 2x the frequency of the upper edge. Note also that you have to consider filter skirts, so you need 2x the frequency at which your input filter has ?high enough? attenuation. To pick an extreme example, the current record holder DSO has 100 GHz (!) bandwidth and 240 Gs/s sampling rate. > >> >> Example line of thought - 8 bit sample = 256 possible vertical positions. >> Even if the screen is low-end (640 x 480) that's almost 2X more height in >> pixels than samples in an 8-bit sample. So each increment is like 2 pixels tall >> and seems like it would be awfully blocky and imprecise. Things would seem >> to get even worse if you try to do maths functions.. >> >> I must be viewing this quite wrong? You would not display them as 2 pixels tall. Typically the display machinery will interconnect the sample points by lines, and the result usually looks pretty convincingly like an analog scope display (unless you crank the zoom way up). As for math, that depends. If your math involves filtering, the effective bit count goes up (the ?processing gain? DSP people speak of). paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 17 20:45:22 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 18:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Creating 5.25" floppies In-Reply-To: References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> <55D25A88.5020704@gmail.com> <690EE985-3454-457C-8692-704706FA427A@fozztexx.com> <55D2771B.2080408@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Aug 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > Terry & all, > To be clear - SD on a "360K" floppy is 180K? Yes? NO. Osborne SD was also single sided. 10 256 byte sectors per track. 100K. "360K" was 9 512 byte sectors, with TWO sides used. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Aug 17 20:54:50 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:54:50 +1200 Subject: Creating 5.25" floppies In-Reply-To: References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> <55D25A88.5020704@gmail.com> <690EE985-3454-457C-8692-704706FA427A@fozztexx.com> <55D2771B.2080408@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 1:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 17 Aug 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > >> Terry & all, >> To be clear - SD on a "360K" floppy is 180K? Yes? >> > > NO. > Osborne SD was also single sided. > 10 256 byte sectors per track. 100K. > > > "360K" was 9 512 byte sectors, with TWO sides used. Hmm. I don't have the machine in front of me to check (I'm at work), but I pretty sure my Osborne 1A drives are single sided not double sided. But I have the double density modification so yes, around 180-200k per disk I imagine. Using the PC and Imagedisk I could easy write DD single-sided disks in a double sided (360k PC) drive though. Terry (Tez) From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 17 20:50:20 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 20:50:20 -0500 Subject: SCSI Tape to TAP utility In-Reply-To: <0CE6CCC9-910C-48DE-AAC0-C22D9146415F@gmail.com> References: <0CE6CCC9-910C-48DE-AAC0-C22D9146415F@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 04:12 PM 8/16/2015, Marc Verdiell wrote: >Thanks Al, I downloaded the assembler just in case. And to Chuck's point, it always felt like the MSDN distribution was a poorly documented, disorganized mess. Good thing so many of us kept it all. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 17 21:11:33 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 19:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Creating 5.25" floppies In-Reply-To: References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> <55D25A88.5020704@gmail.com> <690EE985-3454-457C-8692-704706FA427A@fozztexx.com> <55D2771B.2080408@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> NO. >> Osborne SD was also single sided. >> 10 256 byte sectors per track. 100K. >> [IBM PC] "360K" was 9 512 byte sectors, with TWO sides used. On Tue, 18 Aug 2015, Terry Stewart wrote: > Hmm. I don't have the machine in front of me to check (I'm at work), but I > pretty sure my Osborne 1A drives are single sided not double sided. But I > have the double density modification so yes, around 180-200k per disk I > imagine. Using the PC and Imagedisk I could easy write DD single-sided > disks in a double sided (360k PC) drive though. I think that the Osborne DD was also single sided. IF I remember correctly (unrefreshed dynamic wetware), it was 5 1024 byte sectors. times 40 tracks, that would, indeed, be 200K. "360K" is mainly just the NAME of a PC format of 9 * 512 * 40 *2 sides The same diskette formatted for other machines could easily be anywhere from 87.5K (TRS80 SD only used 35 tracks) up to 400K, or even less with some inefficient choices, or up to 800K at 96TPI, or even more with various strange choices, such as not having all sectors the same size. Calling that diskette a "360K" provides a relatively unambiguous way to identify the 300 Oersted, 1M unformatted media, and the IBM PC 48tpi double sided floppy drive. Yes, there are plenty of other further possible exceptions to keep some ambiguitiy in the terminology. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 21:25:11 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 21:25:11 -0500 Subject: Creating 5.25" floppies In-Reply-To: References: <55D24298.9080602@gmail.com> <55D25A88.5020704@gmail.com> <690EE985-3454-457C-8692-704706FA427A@fozztexx.com> <55D2771B.2080408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55D29787.7000805@gmail.com> On 08/17/2015 08:54 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 1:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Mon, 17 Aug 2015, drlegendre . wrote: >> >>> Terry & all, >>> To be clear - SD on a "360K" floppy is 180K? Yes? >>> >> >> NO. >> Osborne SD was also single sided. >> 10 256 byte sectors per track. 100K. >> >> >> "360K" was 9 512 byte sectors, with TWO sides used. > > > Hmm. I don't have the machine in front of me to check (I'm at work), but I > pretty sure my Osborne 1A drives are single sided not double sided. Yup, single-sided, 40 tracks. > But I > have the double density modification so yes, around 180-200k per disk I > imagine. Yup again. I've got "The Osborne Portable Computer" book in front of me now and it claims that the DD configuration uses 5 sectors of 1024 bytes per track, so 200KB over 40 tracks - but that CP/M reserves the first 20KB of that, leaving 180KB for the user. I just had this nagging feeling that some of that reserved area is formatted at SD rather than DD (i.e. FM rather than MFM), at least for a CP/M boot disk, and so an FM-capable controller was needed in PC-land to write them, but if you've written them with one that can only do MFM then it suggests otherwise (and likely any ol' PC that drlegendre has will work OK). > Using the PC and Imagedisk I could easy write DD single-sided > disks in a double sided (360k PC) drive though. Yeah, like Fred says, in the PC/DOS world a "360K" drive would have 40 tracks at 48tpi, just like the Osborne drives (albeit with two heads rather than one), and would format using MFM, just like the Osborne with the DD upgrade - but DOS would format it at 9 sectors of 512 bytes per track, giving 180KB per surface and 360K per disk. Software other than DOS - e.g. Imagedisk - isn't limited to that geometry and so will happily read/write DD (or SD if the controller supports it) for other media. cheers Jules From cube1 at charter.net Mon Aug 17 21:48:08 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 21:48:08 -0500 Subject: RLV11 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D29CE8.3020208@charter.net> BR level is the bus request level for an Interrupt. BR 4 is typical. The RLV11 apparently asserts BIRQ L, pin AL2 - which on the 11/23 would be BIRQ4 L. I don't think the RLV11 offers any other choice. The RLV11 print set (bitsavers) has the switch settings on page 4 of the PDF. The RLV11 controller manual can be found at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-RLV11-TD-001_RLV11_Controller_Technical_Description_Manual_Mar78.pdf The RLV11 was developed for the original LSI Bus. I'd expect it to be Q-Bus compatible, but others here probably have more recent exposure. It has been a while since I worked with an 11/23. Have you tried manually examining the CSR to see what it shows? Does it make sense? Have you tried a CSR of 774400, which might be its address on your machine? JRJ On 8/17/2015 4:43 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Now that I (hopefully) have my PDP 11/23 running (it passes CPU and memory > tests, anyway), I've been messing with my RLV11 so I can use my RL02. > > For a first step, I'm trying to run the VRLBC0 diskless diagnostic to check > the controller. I checked that the address and vector switches are set to > the defaults according to he manual, and also verified them with a > multimeter. > > The manual says the default vector address is 330, though the diagnostics > default to 160. I tried it both ways with the same result, though I should > be on 330. > > I'm not actually sure what "BR LEVEL" refers to, so I left that at the > default. > > This is a PDP 11/23 with an H-9273 backplane. I have the M8186, M8067, > M8043, then the two RLV11 boards, M8013 and M8014, then an M8012. > > Here's a sample run. It appears to start, but never does anything else. If > I give it a bad address it does complain, so I think I have the switches > correct. > > Does anyone know what I might try next? Thanks! > > > .R VRLBC0 > VRLBC0.BIC > > DRSSM-G2 > CVRLB-C-0 > RLV12 DISKLESS > UNIT IS RLV12, RLV11, OR RL11 > RSTRT ADR 145702 > DR>START > > CHANGE HW (L) ? Y > > # UNITS (D) ? 1 > > UNIT 0 > RLV12 (L) Y ? N > RLV11 (L) Y ? Y > CSR ADDRESS (O) 174400 ? > VECTOR (O) 160 ? 330 > BR LEVEL (O) 4 ? > > CHANGE SW (L) ? Y > > ERROR LIMIT FOR AUTO-DROP (D) 0 ? > > ALL REMAINING QUERIES ARE FOR OPTIONAL (MANUFACTURING) > G5388 TEST-LOOP-MODULE SET-UP. USE <^Z> TO BYPASS. > > G5388 TLM INSTALLED (L) N ? N > > MMU AVAILABLE > MEMORY SIZE 124 KW > 18 BIT ADDRESSING > > > From cube1 at charter.net Mon Aug 17 21:54:52 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 21:54:52 -0500 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <041f01d0d92f$09f006c0$1dd01440$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55D29E7C.5060402@charter.net> You might check EEVBLOG on Youtube. The guy's a blast and covers what you are asking about. He indicates 8 bits is really not to his liking at all, to go for more. He also goes over the sampling rate of some of the USB DSO's out there. EEVBlog #13: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTG6jWL0ZqA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev121xAt_k4 JRJ On 8/17/2015 6:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Hey Dave & All, > > Could you give a little quick kick-start guide to bit depth & sampling rate > on DSOs? It's always kind of stumped me, not that I've ever read deeply > into it.. but how is it that you can get any kind of (vertical, right?) > resolution out of 8 or even 12-bit samples? > > Example line of thought - 8 bit sample = 256 possible vertical positions. > Even if the screen is low-end (640 x 480) that's almost 2X more height in > pixels than samples in an 8-bit sample. So each increment is like 2 pixels > tall and seems like it would be awfully blocky and imprecise. Things would > seem to get even worse if you try to do maths functions.. > > I must be viewing this quite wrong? > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel >>> Chiappa >>> Sent: 17 August 2015 21:12 >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu >>> Subject: Re: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) >>> >>> > From: Eric Smith >>> >>> > If a person has any reasonable business justification >>> >>> But a lot of the people here don't; they're purely hobbyists. So spending >> $1K >>> on a piece of test equipment just isn't realistic for them. >>> >>> Having said that, I do see some DSO's on eBay for not much money (e.g. >> the >>> little hand-held ones), and those might be a good alternative to a logic >>> analyzer - I never used one, so I tend not to think of them. >>> >>> Noel >> >> >> I haven't tried the dedicated DSO's but I have a couple of USB connected >> ones and a laptop. For value for money I don't think the Hantek 6022 can >> be >> beaten. It really only goes to 8Mhz but I see they can be had for $60 - $70 >> and some sellers have US stock. I also have a 200Mhz one but to be honest >> for 99% of vintage stuff the Hantek is fine. It is only 8-bit, it is a bit >> noisy, but its small enough to slip in the laptop bag, it doesn't need a >> separate PSU... >> >> Dave Wade >> G4UGM >> >> > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 22:04:07 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 23:04:07 -0400 Subject: RLV11 Debugging In-Reply-To: <55D29CE8.3020208@charter.net> References: <55D29CE8.3020208@charter.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > The RLV11 was developed for the original LSI Bus. I'd expect it to be > Q-Bus compatible, but others here probably have more recent exposure. > It has been a while since I worked with an 11/23. In 1987, all I could afford was a used 11/23 ($300 for BA11-N, CPU, 256K of RAM, DLV11J 4-line serial, LPV11 line printer interface, and BDV11 bootstrap and terminator) so for disk, I picked up an RLV11 ($100) and borrowed an RL01 off of my PDP-8/a. I used that for (RT-11) work for 2 years. Worked great! There should be no problems in an 18-bit backplane. If you want 22-bit, that's the RLV12, which works in everything Qbus including MicroVAXen. I never ran the diags... I just plugged in a drive with "0" plug in it, and booted it up. I may have borrowed an RL02 from my boss and booted it from that first and copied the OS to my RL01 and swapped drive plugs. Once it was running, I had 5MB for the OS and my development environment, and 10MB for customer data (and to transfer deliverables to the customer site - the target was a $20,000 11/73 with 4MB of RAM and a Fujitsu Eagle disk and a few other expensive extras (RLV12 + RL02...). I always got a kick out of developing for a machine that cost 50X what I paid for mine). -ethan From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 22:06:33 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 22:06:33 -0500 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: <55D29E7C.5060402@charter.net> References: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <041f01d0d92f$09f006c0$1dd01440$@gmail.com> <55D29E7C.5060402@charter.net> Message-ID: @ Jay, Ha, yeah.. I've seen a number of his vids.. Don't mean to offend, but he comes off a bit squirrely (hyper) for me. Yet another freaking Aussie nutcase, lol - but he does seem to get some good info across, in between the audible glamour. On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 9:54 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > You might check EEVBLOG on Youtube. The guy's a blast and covers what > you are asking about. He indicates 8 bits is really not to his liking > at all, to go for more. He also goes over the sampling rate of some of > the USB DSO's out there. > > EEVBlog #13: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTG6jWL0ZqA > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev121xAt_k4 > > JRJ > > On 8/17/2015 6:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > Hey Dave & All, > > > > Could you give a little quick kick-start guide to bit depth & sampling > rate > > on DSOs? It's always kind of stumped me, not that I've ever read deeply > > into it.. but how is it that you can get any kind of (vertical, right?) > > resolution out of 8 or even 12-bit samples? > > > > Example line of thought - 8 bit sample = 256 possible vertical positions. > > Even if the screen is low-end (640 x 480) that's almost 2X more height in > > pixels than samples in an 8-bit sample. So each increment is like 2 > pixels > > tall and seems like it would be awfully blocky and imprecise. Things > would > > seem to get even worse if you try to do maths functions.. > > > > I must be viewing this quite wrong? > > > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Dave G4UGM > wrote: > > > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > >>> Chiappa > >>> Sent: 17 August 2015 21:12 > >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > >>> Subject: Re: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) > >>> > >>> > From: Eric Smith > >>> > >>> > If a person has any reasonable business justification > >>> > >>> But a lot of the people here don't; they're purely hobbyists. So > spending > >> $1K > >>> on a piece of test equipment just isn't realistic for them. > >>> > >>> Having said that, I do see some DSO's on eBay for not much money (e.g. > >> the > >>> little hand-held ones), and those might be a good alternative to a > logic > >>> analyzer - I never used one, so I tend not to think of them. > >>> > >>> Noel > >> > >> > >> I haven't tried the dedicated DSO's but I have a couple of USB connected > >> ones and a laptop. For value for money I don't think the Hantek 6022 > can > >> be > >> beaten. It really only goes to 8Mhz but I see they can be had for $60 - > $70 > >> and some sellers have US stock. I also have a 200Mhz one but to be > honest > >> for 99% of vintage stuff the Hantek is fine. It is only 8-bit, it is a > bit > >> noisy, but its small enough to slip in the laptop bag, it doesn't need a > >> separate PSU... > >> > >> Dave Wade > >> G4UGM > >> > >> > > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 17 22:28:16 2015 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 20:28:16 -0700 Subject: Freight recommendation for a teletype? In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: Hi John, A testament to the extraordinary community that is classiccmp. I will certainly take you up on it, and get you a check, and/or some of the other great junk lying around here. I'm pretty well equipped with a good electronics lab. Do you need a scope? I have a few Tektronix digital scopes and I cant possibly use them all. 100 MHz .... I'm not sure about the lockdown, I imagine when its undone the bolt is stored in a available hole inside, and possibly is still there. I will see what comes back from craters and freighters and UShip, the thing has to be taken off the pedestal and wrapped/banded onto a pallet. Let me know what you need, and hey, Thanks, Randy > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 21:49:59 -0500 > To: rdawson16 at hotmail.com > From: jfoust at threedee.com > Subject: RE: Freight recommendation for a teletype? > > At 09:29 PM 8/17/2015, you wrote: > >123 N Washington St. Elkhorn WI 53121. > >I asked for a quote from Craters and Freighters, and the UShip site. > > I'm not sure if I can help, but I thought I'd chime in. > > I'm 45 minutes from there, 30 minutes if I'm at my fianc?e's place. > (Jefferson, WI and Janesville, WI, respectively.) > > I do have a friend with a loading dock and pallets and wrap. > > You do need to lock down the upper machinery with the shipping bolt > or it'll destroy itself, depending on the shipping method. > > I have a 33 and a 28, too. > > - John > From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 22:41:22 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 22:41:22 -0500 Subject: Freight recommendation for a teletype? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For real? That's just so cool! And yes, this list has more than its share of extraordinary members. Just today, after putting out a request for some Osborne boot media - not only did half a dozen or more learned individuals respond to my questions, but +two+ of them offered to locate and / or send bootable media for the machine. It's a great group of folks, and I'm genuinely thankful to be in their company. On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 10:28 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > Hi John, > > A testament to the extraordinary community that is classiccmp. > > I > will certainly take you up on it, and get you a check, and/or some of > the other great junk lying around here. I'm pretty well equipped with a > good electronics lab. Do you need a scope? I have a few Tektronix > digital scopes and I cant possibly use them all. 100 MHz .... > > I'm > not sure about the lockdown, I imagine when its undone the bolt is > stored in a available hole inside, and possibly is still there. > > I > will see what comes back from craters and freighters and UShip, the > thing has to be taken off the pedestal and wrapped/banded onto a > pallet. > > Let me know what you need, and hey, > > Thanks, > > Randy > > > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 21:49:59 -0500 > > To: rdawson16 at hotmail.com > > From: jfoust at threedee.com > > Subject: RE: Freight recommendation for a teletype? > > > > At 09:29 PM 8/17/2015, you wrote: > > >123 N Washington St. Elkhorn WI 53121. > > >I asked for a quote from Craters and Freighters, and the UShip site. > > > > I'm not sure if I can help, but I thought I'd chime in. > > > > I'm 45 minutes from there, 30 minutes if I'm at my fianc?e's place. > > (Jefferson, WI and Janesville, WI, respectively.) > > > > I do have a friend with a loading dock and pallets and wrap. > > > > You do need to lock down the upper machinery with the shipping bolt > > or it'll destroy itself, depending on the shipping method. > > > > I have a 33 and a 28, too. > > > > - John > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 17 23:01:44 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 04:01:44 +0000 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > If a person has any reasonable business justification > > But a lot of the people here don't; they're purely hobbyists. So spending > $1K on a piece of test equipment just isn't realistic for them. Plenty of people will spend $1K on equipment for their hobbies. No, I do not believe that a hobby should be for the rich only, or that you have to spend that sort of money to enjoy classic computing, but I don't think that is a ridiculous sum. -tony From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 17 23:11:06 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 21:11:06 -0700 Subject: Freight recommendation for a teletype? In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , Message-ID: For shipping, use the proper screws to hold the printer. I don't recall the proper size. If you don't, you may loose the H coupler and damage the keyboard. I also recommend removing the motor and shipping it in a third box. It is so off balanced that the packing can shift. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 17 23:09:13 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 04:09:13 +0000 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: <20150817103250.6235818C0E0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01C01140-868F-4AD6-96EC-FAA81D13538A@cs.ubc.ca> , Message-ID: > > One thing though. No piece of test gear will do more than provide evidence of > > what the circuit is doing. It will not tell you 'U38 is faulty' or whatever. > > In principle that was where HP was trying to go with signature > analysis back in the 1970s. The problem has since been solved by Execpt it didn't really work. Even the HP service manuals which include signatures for various signals have things like 'check signature at pin 5 of U17'. If it's not 1234, replace U17, U1, U18 in order'. It doesn't get you down to a single component. All signature analysis really is is a way of checking if a complex waveform is right or wrong. But if it's wrong it doesn't tell you _how_ it's wrong. Whereas understanding the circuit and knowing what to expect on pin 5 of U17 will let you spot that it's missing a pulse every 5th cycle or whatever, and thus the fault must be... > making the entire product a single FRU (Field Replaceable Unit). :-( > "He fixes radios by THINKING!" > - Someone who had a young Richard Feynman fix his radio, > as quoted in his autobiography _Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman! > (Adventures of a Curious Character)_ When I first read that, _my_ first thought was 'Is there any other way to fix radios?' -tony From cube1 at charter.net Mon Aug 17 16:22:44 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 16:22:44 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800 spindle bearings (Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem) In-Reply-To: <55CFF6F7.3000909@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> <55CF8A2D.1030007@charter.net> <55CF9D55.2070200@charter.net> <55CFF6F7.3000909@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D250A4.1090405@charter.net> Well, in the process of repairing the Altos power supply I managed to break the center lead off of the TIP31A that feeds the 2N3055 series pass transistor. This time, I need to order parts. In the meantime, I swapped drives to make the problem more drive accessible. Also, the Shugart 801 drive I was testing is part of a pair in a Data Systems ADS-440 dual floppy system intended for use in a PDP-11 that I have never used. (Would have to look - looks like it needs its own special interface card). Along with that machine, which came from or was at least touched by the U. Wisconsin Instrumentation Systems Center (ISC) back in the day, came a set of (gasp) brand spanking new bearings for a Shugart 8" drive. Looking at the parts diagram, I think I'll pull the spindle apart while waiting for my power supply parts, and see how hard it would be to replace the bearings. Not all that hard, I'd think. For future reference, the bearings are: Part #9 in the diagram - flanged bearing markings: SSR - 4HH NMB Part #8: - (unflanged) bearing markings NHBB NMB still exists as part of Minebea Mineature ball bearings. NHBB still exists - New Hampshire Ball Bearings The new old stock bearings are a little stiff, but will roll when held against a piece of paper. JRJ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 16:37:56 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 17:37:56 -0400 Subject: Shugart 800 spindle bearings (Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem) In-Reply-To: <55D250A4.1090405@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> <55CF8A2D.1030007@charter.net> <55CF9D55.2070200@charter.net> <55CFF6F7.3000909@charter.net> <55D250A4.1090405@charter.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Well, in the process of repairing the Altos power supply I managed to > break the center lead off of the TIP31A that feeds the 2N3055 series > pass transistor. This time, I need to order parts. Isn't the center lead also the tab? > Also, the Shugart 801 drive I was testing is part of a pair in a Data > Systems ADS-440 dual floppy system intended for use in a PDP-11 that I > have never used. (Would have to look - looks like it needs its own > special interface card). Yes. There would have been a Qbus interface card for that. -ethan From scaron at umich.edu Mon Aug 17 18:12:09 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 19:12:09 -0400 Subject: MP3000's In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E769FB5D12@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: I would've been game at that kind of price ... hopefully someone who can appreciate them actually got them and will have some fun with them. Did they sell? Best, Sean On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 7:07 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Not me. > > -- > Will > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 6:40 PM, Benjamin Huntsman > wrote: > > Anyone here pick up the two MP3000's on PublicSurplus for $99/ea? > From cube1 at charter.net Mon Aug 17 20:48:59 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 20:48:59 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800 spindle bearings (Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem) In-Reply-To: <55D250A4.1090405@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> <55CF8A2D.1030007@charter.net> <55CF9D55.2070200@charter.net> <55CFF6F7.3000909@charter.net> <55D250A4.1090405@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D28F0B.5040009@charter.net> The bearings were actually easy to replace, no special tools required. The hardest part was getting off the nut that was holding the spindle together. Other than that, the bearings side into place pretty easily (the top one, which is the most critical, required the heel of my hand to press it in place in the hole in the deck, that was all). The whole operation took only about an hour, from start to finish. For future reference, the original bearings are marked similarly to the replacements: Top bearing (with flange): SSR - 4ZZ NMB Bottom bearing (no flange) NHBB R4 (It is possible that the replacement bottom bearing had that "R4" as well, and I missed it). Once I get the power supply fixed, I'll test the drive to see if this helped. If there is ANY difference, maybe I can move a shaft/screwdriver inserted in the old bearings just a little bit further from vertical - they allow a tiny bit more rock. JRJ On 8/17/2015 4:22 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Well, in the process of repairing the Altos power supply I managed to > break the center lead off of the TIP31A that feeds the 2N3055 series > pass transistor. This time, I need to order parts. > > In the meantime, I swapped drives to make the problem more drive accessible. > > Also, the Shugart 801 drive I was testing is part of a pair in a Data > Systems ADS-440 dual floppy system intended for use in a PDP-11 that I > have never used. (Would have to look - looks like it needs its own > special interface card). Along with that machine, which came from or > was at least touched by the U. Wisconsin Instrumentation Systems Center > (ISC) back in the day, came a set of (gasp) brand spanking new bearings > for a Shugart 8" drive. Looking at the parts diagram, I think I'll pull > the spindle apart while waiting for my power supply parts, and see how > hard it would be to replace the bearings. Not all that hard, I'd think. > > For future reference, the bearings are: > > Part #9 in the diagram - flanged bearing markings: > SSR - 4HH NMB > > Part #8: - (unflanged) bearing markings > NHBB > > > NMB still exists as part of Minebea Mineature ball bearings. > NHBB still exists - New Hampshire Ball Bearings > > The new old stock bearings are a little stiff, but will roll when held > against a piece of paper. > > JRJ > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 17 23:14:42 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 04:14:42 +0000 Subject: Shugart 800 spindle bearings (Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem) In-Reply-To: <55D250A4.1090405@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> <55CF8A2D.1030007@charter.net> <55CF9D55.2070200@charter.net> <55CFF6F7.3000909@charter.net>,<55D250A4.1090405@charter.net> Message-ID: > > Well, in the process of repairing the Altos power supply I managed to > break the center lead off of the TIP31A that feeds the 2N3055 series > pass transistor. This time, I need to order parts. Do you? The centre lead (collector) is connected to the tab on that transistor. So a solder tag under the mounting screw (against the tab, not on top of an insulating bush linked to the appropriate pad on the PCB should fix it. > Looking at the parts diagram, I think I'll pull > the spindle apart while waiting for my power supply parts, and see how > hard it would be to replace the bearings. Not all that hard, I'd think. It's quite easy on every drive I've had apart. The ball races are going to be standard sizes. You need to measure the outside diameter, inside diameter (or the diameter of the spindle, which is a lot easier) and thickness. Over here there are companies that just sell ball and roller bearings. If you go to the trade counter they will measure up the old bearings for you and find replacements most of the time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 17 23:21:09 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 04:21:09 +0000 Subject: Shugart 800 spindle bearings (Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem) In-Reply-To: <55D28F0B.5040009@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> <55CF8A2D.1030007@charter.net> <55CF9D55.2070200@charter.net> <55CFF6F7.3000909@charter.net> <55D250A4.1090405@charter.net>,<55D28F0B.5040009@charter.net> Message-ID: > The bearings were actually easy to replace, no special tools required. > The hardest part was getting off the nut that was holding the spindle > together. Nothing to do with this drive (in fact I have never seen this in 8" drives) but some direct drive 5.25" drives have a left hand thread screw holding the rotor to the end of the spindle. The HD one in my PC/AT does, for example. Do not ask how I found this out! -tony From evan.linwood at eastek.com.au Tue Aug 18 00:13:24 2015 From: evan.linwood at eastek.com.au (Evan Linwood) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 15:13:24 +1000 Subject: Help needed please re possible loss of a Burroughs B7800 CPU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001e01d0d974$9cb7f680$d627e380$@eastek.com.au> Hi Nigel, Thanks a lot for taking an interest and for posting this information. The answer you got from the museum matches the original information I got, I wasn't able to get anything further from there. The chassis/backplane/card cages were actually quite interesting also, although I guess it helps to have seen it firsthand to fully appreciate. Of course the real value was in its rarity. The building company involved was as helpful as they could be - I spoke to a number of people with them, at the Uni and externally but sadly didn't get there in the end! (I've seen the 11/780, which is sitting inside a public area of the Uni at Caulfield). Thanks very much again - Cheers Evan -----Original Message----- From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com [mailto:nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com] Sent: Monday, 17 August 2015 4:32 PM To: Evan Linwood; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Help needed please re possible loss of a Burroughs B7800 CPU Hi Evan and others who might have been wondering, I managed to find out what happened to the Burroughs B7800 that was "under the stairs" at Monash university. The good news is that the interesting parts, namely the indicator panels, have been saved by the Monash Museum of Computing History. They also retrieved the VAX 11/780 that was there too, and it is now in storage. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4401/10444 - Release Date: 08/15/15 From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 18 00:33:21 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 00:33:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Manuals Plus preservation efforts update Message-ID: In Realtime: We are barely halfway done http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4711 They are still looking for volunteers tomorrow (Tuesday, August 18). Anyone in or near Baltimore might want to go help. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 00:51:39 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 23:51:39 -0600 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I wrote: > If a person has any reasonable business justification On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > But a lot of the people here don't; they're purely hobbyists. So spending > $1K on a piece of test equipment just isn't realistic for them. That's why I suggested the info was for those with a reasonable business justification. I'd be rather hard-pressed to come up with money for test equipment if it wasn't going to be used for paying work. My main point was that the prices of reasonably decent test equipment, even brand new, have come down a lot in the last decade. Still possibly out of reach of many hobbyists, though. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 02:59:46 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:59:46 +0100 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <052c01d0d98b$da39d890$8ead89b0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: 18 August 2015 06:52 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) > > I wrote: > > If a person has any reasonable business justification > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > > But a lot of the people here don't; they're purely hobbyists. So > > spending $1K on a piece of test equipment just isn't realistic for them. > Then some tasks become non-realistic. So I don't have a spectrum analyser, so realistically I can't test home-brew Ham Band HF (3-30Mhz) Power Amplifiers. Of course budget limits what all of us can do. I am not Paul Allen and I can't afford to run a Mainframe. > That's why I suggested the info was for those with a reasonable business > justification. I'd be rather hard-pressed to come up with money for test > equipment if it wasn't going to be used for paying work. > Sometimes a "business judgement" isn't about pure reward. I only ride a small motor cycle but I spent around $1000 on boots, gloves, over trousers, jacket and helmet, for when I fall off... > My main point was that the prices of reasonably decent test equipment, > even brand new, have come down a lot in the last decade. Still possibly out > of reach of many hobbyists, though. I think for most vintage computing requirements the cost of a suitable scope is attainable. I can't see any need to spend more than $250 on such a device, and as I say for many tasks a bottom end model is fine. The models with the 16-channel logic analyser look very good. Really excellent DVM's can now be had for $20-$30. I don't think the prices have ever been better. If you don't have a decent scope try talking to your local Ham Club, Hack Space or FabLab. http://www.arrl.org/find-a-club https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/List_of_Hacker_Spaces http://www.fablab.com/ The FabLabs all have good Scopes, most hack spaces will have usuable scopes, often older and donated, and many Ham Clubs will have some sort of test equipment... Dave Wade G4UGM Dave Wade From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 04:03:58 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 10:03:58 +0100 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: <55D29E7C.5060402@charter.net> References: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <041f01d0d92f$09f006c0$1dd01440$@gmail.com> <55D29E7C.5060402@charter.net> Message-ID: <058e01d0d994$d2196050$764c20f0$@gmail.com> The videos below are from 2009 so are now 6 years old, so about the same age as windows/7. I don't know of any modern USB scope that does equivalent time sampling. Memory Depth isn't so important as USB2 means you can shift the data pretty quickly into the PC. I also note he says proudly he doesn?t have a PC in is lab. I have several and they are really useful for many things. In 2009 I probably didn't, but these days they server as audio signal generators, audio frequency counters, and Audio oscilloscopes. with a DVB memory stick inserted they provide low cost, reasonable quality spectrum analysis. As for displaying the scope output how many scopes have a 14" screen. Those with a reasonable cost all have smaller screens where 8-bit sampling is probably OK. Note the Rigol he proudly trumpets has a 5.7" display. Yuk!. I also have recording 3.5 digit DVM with a USB interface. Good for recording data over short periods.... As he says for us with higher speed devices you probably want a 20Mhz displayable bandwidth, so I would say 80mhz sampling Minimum, he says 200Mhz, but for older vintage stuff you are seldom going to be going that fast. I own a DSO5200 as mentioned in the videos and its great, but the only time I have used its full abilities was to test a 0-30Mhz Direct Digital Synthesis frequency generator I built. I actually recently went and bought a 6022 as well. At the price I just don't worry about it, I throw it in the laptop bag and away I go. Well 12-bit is, imho a total waste of money for Computer Restoration or really most work. That?s equivalent to about 250 microvolts on a 0v to 1volt signal. I could see an argument for 10-bit which is about 1 millivolt on a 0v to 1volt signal, but that?s the most you can display on a 1168x1024 screen and even then you won't fit it all in as you will have some borders. (Double those figures for symmetric +/-1volt audio) As someone else said 8-bits resolution is 4 pixels on a modern screen, but this laptop so that?s how far the signal jumps. If you go for analog scopes then the screen size will be significantly smaller so you won't get anywhere near that resolution, and even on a very good scope I am pretty sure the spot size will be greater than 1 pixel. This laptop, which is typically what I use the USB scopes with is actually only 900 pixels vertically so about three pixels per step. Lastly I also own 2 analogue scopes, both old, a Tektronix 453 and a "no name" TV engineer scope that our local college sold when it stopped teaching TV repair. There are times when both of these are useful, but if I had to choose then I would take either of the USB scopes any day. In short I guess it is all down to what is called "opportunity cost". Spend $60 on a scope and the fastest CPU you can debug will be an 8Mhz z80 or 8086. For $200 you are in the higher speed 68030 arena... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger > Sent: 18 August 2015 03:55 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) > > You might check EEVBLOG on Youtube. The guy's a blast and covers what > you are asking about. He indicates 8 bits is really not to his liking at all, to go > for more. He also goes over the sampling rate of some of the USB DSO's out > there. > > EEVBlog #13: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTG6jWL0ZqA > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev121xAt_k4 > > JRJ > > On 8/17/2015 6:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > Hey Dave & All, > > > > Could you give a little quick kick-start guide to bit depth & sampling > > rate on DSOs? It's always kind of stumped me, not that I've ever read > > deeply into it.. but how is it that you can get any kind of (vertical, > > right?) resolution out of 8 or even 12-bit samples? > > > > Example line of thought - 8 bit sample = 256 possible vertical positions. > > Even if the screen is low-end (640 x 480) that's almost 2X more height > > in pixels than samples in an 8-bit sample. So each increment is like 2 > > pixels tall and seems like it would be awfully blocky and imprecise. > > Things would seem to get even worse if you try to do maths functions.. > > > > I must be viewing this quite wrong? > > > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Dave G4UGM > wrote: > > > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >>> Noel Chiappa > >>> Sent: 17 August 2015 21:12 > >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > >>> Subject: Re: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) > >>> > >>> > From: Eric Smith > >>> > >>> > If a person has any reasonable business justification > >>> > >>> But a lot of the people here don't; they're purely hobbyists. So > >>> spending > >> $1K > >>> on a piece of test equipment just isn't realistic for them. > >>> > >>> Having said that, I do see some DSO's on eBay for not much money (e.g. > >> the > >>> little hand-held ones), and those might be a good alternative to a > >>> logic analyzer - I never used one, so I tend not to think of them. > >>> > >>> Noel > >> > >> > >> I haven't tried the dedicated DSO's but I have a couple of USB > >> connected ones and a laptop. For value for money I don't think the > >> Hantek 6022 can be beaten. It really only goes to 8Mhz but I see > >> they can be had for $60 - $70 and some sellers have US stock. I also > >> have a 200Mhz one but to be honest for 99% of vintage stuff the > >> Hantek is fine. It is only 8-bit, it is a bit noisy, but its small > >> enough to slip in the laptop bag, it doesn't need a separate PSU... > >> > >> Dave Wade > >> G4UGM > >> > >> > > From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Aug 18 04:31:05 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 11:31:05 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> Jerry Weiss wrote: > Sorry if some of the suggestions aren?t appropriate, was just throwing a few things out. > > > $analyze/error/since=today/full/include=tx > > Can you post a sample of the output for one of the lines that has an error? > > Regards, > Jerry > Hmm... $analyze/error/since=yesterday/full/include=tx Error Log Report Generator Version V7.1 %ERF-F-INVQUAVA1, value 'TX' invalid for /INCLUDE qualifier $ I've looked over what was reported with $analyze/error/since=yesterday/full but haven't found anything interesting .. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Aug 18 05:48:29 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:48:29 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-18 11:31, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Jerry Weiss wrote: > >> Sorry if some of the suggestions aren?t appropriate, was just throwing a few things out. >> >> >> $analyze/error/since=today/full/include=tx >> >> Can you post a sample of the output for one of the lines that has an error? >> >> Regards, >> Jerry >> > > Hmm... > > > $analyze/error/since=yesterday/full/include=tx > Error Log Report Generator Version V7.1 > %ERF-F-INVQUAVA1, value 'TX' invalid for /INCLUDE qualifier > $ > > I've looked over what was reported with $analyze/error/since=yesterday/full > but haven't found anything interesting .. Not sure why /include=tx was suggested. I don't think that makes sense. Anyway, you found a way around that. Otherwise, the device name should be used, which should have been TT I believe. But I would expect there to be some information in the error log as your error count is non-zero. Strange... Things that would be interesting to check more is that you really have the right device type and driver installed. Johnny From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Aug 18 05:55:58 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:55:58 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20150818105558.GA96818@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Jerry Weiss wrote: > > > Sorry if some of the suggestions aren?t appropriate, was just throwing a few things out. > > > > > > $analyze/error/since=today/full/include=tx > > > > Can you post a sample of the output for one of the lines that has an error? > > > > Regards, > > Jerry > > > > Hmm... > > > $analyze/error/since=yesterday/full/include=tx > Error Log Report Generator Version V7.1 > %ERF-F-INVQUAVA1, value 'TX' invalid for /INCLUDE qualifier > $ > > I've looked over what was reported with $analyze/error/since=yesterday/full > but haven't found anything interesting .. > > Regards, > > Holm > -- I've verified the switch settings again, they are set exactly as suggested in bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-192AA-MG-001_Microsystems_Options_Oct88.pdf on page 46. The Settings are DHU11 Mode, CSR 17760440, VEC 300. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Aug 18 06:17:07 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:17:07 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-18 11:31, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >Jerry Weiss wrote: > > > >>Sorry if some of the suggestions aren?t appropriate, was just throwing a > >>few things out. > >> > >> > >>$analyze/error/since=today/full/include=tx > >> > >>Can you post a sample of the output for one of the lines that has an > >>error? > >> > >>Regards, > >>Jerry > >> > > > >Hmm... > > > > > >$analyze/error/since=yesterday/full/include=tx > >Error Log Report Generator Version V7.1 > >%ERF-F-INVQUAVA1, value 'TX' invalid for /INCLUDE qualifier > >$ > > > >I've looked over what was reported with $analyze/error/since=yesterday/full > >but haven't found anything interesting .. > > Not sure why /include=tx was suggested. I don't think that makes sense. > Anyway, you found a way around that. Otherwise, the device name should > be used, which should have been TT I believe. > > But I would expect there to be some information in the error log as your > error count is non-zero. Strange... > > Things that would be interesting to check more is that you really have > the right device type and driver installed. > > Johnny I've pulled the card in the meantime and looked at the Qbus connectors from the backplane using a lamp..they are looking nice (there lives a really tiny spider in there, but I dont' think that it would hurt something :-) No way to pull it out w/o dismantling the machine). Now I have connected 5 Volts to the xtal oscillator at the pcb, unfortunately it is ok also, 4,5Vss and the frequency is correct. Now I'm resoldering the PLCC housed gate array on the board with hotair, but I don't think that it would change anything, the soldering points are looking good so far. :-( after that I will retest the board and looking again to the error log. Please be patient.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Aug 18 06:33:06 2015 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 11:33:06 +0000 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> I certainly feel bitsavers is a good model, and although I'm physically not too far away from the stuff, I'm not sure I have much to offer other than disk space on a server for staging. http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4695 (previous link: http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 ) From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Aug 18 07:17:08 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 14:17:08 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > On 2015-08-18 11:31, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > >Jerry Weiss wrote: > > > > > >>Sorry if some of the suggestions aren?t appropriate, was just throwing a > > >>few things out. > > >> > > >> > > >>$analyze/error/since=today/full/include=tx > > >> > > >>Can you post a sample of the output for one of the lines that has an > > >>error? > > >> > > >>Regards, > > >>Jerry > > >> > > > > > >Hmm... > > > > > > > > >$analyze/error/since=yesterday/full/include=tx > > >Error Log Report Generator Version V7.1 > > >%ERF-F-INVQUAVA1, value 'TX' invalid for /INCLUDE qualifier > > >$ > > > > > >I've looked over what was reported with $analyze/error/since=yesterday/full > > >but haven't found anything interesting .. > > > > Not sure why /include=tx was suggested. I don't think that makes sense. > > Anyway, you found a way around that. Otherwise, the device name should > > be used, which should have been TT I believe. > > > > But I would expect there to be some information in the error log as your > > error count is non-zero. Strange... > > > > Things that would be interesting to check more is that you really have > > the right device type and driver installed. > > > > Johnny > > I've pulled the card in the meantime and looked at the Qbus connectors > from the backplane using a lamp..they are looking nice (there lives a > really tiny spider in there, but I dont' think that it would hurt something > :-) No way to pull it out w/o dismantling the machine). > Now I have connected 5 Volts to the xtal oscillator at the pcb, unfortunately > it is ok also, 4,5Vss and the frequency is correct. > Now I'm resoldering the PLCC housed gate array on the board with hotair, but > I don't think that it would change anything, the soldering points are > looking good so far. > > :-( > > after that I will retest the board and looking again to the error log. > Please be patient.. > ..ok, nothing has changed (as expected) :-( The additional VT420 is connected to txa3: and I haven't changed the term parameters since reboot: $ sh term txa3: Terminal: _TXA3: Device_Type: Unknown Owner: No Owner Input: 9600 LFfill: 0 Width: 80 Parity: None Output: 9600 CRfill: 0 Page: 24 Terminal Characteristics: Interactive Echo Type_ahead No Escape No Hostsync TTsync Lowercase No Tab Wrap Scope No Remote No Eightbit Broadcast No Readsync No Form Fulldup No Modem No Local_echo Autobaud No Hangup No Brdcstmbx No DMA No Altypeahd Set_speed No Commsync Line Editing Overstrike editing No Fallback No Dialup No Secure server No Disconnect No Pasthru No Syspassword No SIXEL Graphics No Soft Characters No Printer Port Numeric Keypad No ANSI_CRT No Regis No Block_mode No Advanced_video No Edit_mode No DEC_CRT No DEC_CRT2 No DEC_CRT3 No DEC_CRT4 No DEC_CRT5 No Ansi_Color VMS Style Input $ I've tried 5 times to copy systartup_vms.com to txa3: since reboot: $ copy SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM txa3: %COPY-E-WRITEERR, error writing TXA3:[]SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM;5 -RMS-F-WER, file write error -SYSTEM-F-TIMEOUT, device timeout %COPY-W-NOTCMPLT, SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM;5 not completely copied $ sh dev counts 5 errors for the tty line: Device Device Error Name Status Count FTA0: Offline 0 OPA0: Online 0 TNA0: Offline 0 TNA2: Online 0 TXA0: Online 0 TXA1: Online 0 TXA2: Online 0 TXA3: Online 5 TXA4: Online 0 TXA5: Online 0 TXA6: Online 0 TXA7: Online 0 VTA0: Offline 0 But I see nothing in the error log regarding this. Here comes the error log from analyze/error/since=today/full/output=huf ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ******************************* ENTRY 472. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 130. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:12:31.08 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:20 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 SYSTEM START-UP KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 TIME OF DAY CLOCK 862C0023 ******************************* ENTRY 473. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 131. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:12:32.19 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:21 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 MOUNT VOLUME KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 UNIT _DISK0$DIA0:, VOLUME LABEL "OVMSVAXSYS" 689. QIO OPERATIONS THIS UNIT, 0. ERRORS THIS UNIT V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:12:59 PAGE 1. ******************************* ENTRY 474. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 132. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:12:54.76 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:44 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 DEVICE ATTENTION KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 "DSA" PORT SUB-SYSTEM, UNIT _V4300$PUA0:, INIT SEQUENCE COMPLETED SA 40D6 CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #6. PORT IS KDA50Q STEP 4 INIT SEQUENCE UCB$W_PORTSTEP1 0B00 ENHANCED DIAGNOSTICS IMPLEMENTED 22-BIT HOST ADDRESSING SUPPORTED STEP 1 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP1 A49B INTERRUPT VECTOR 000154(OCTAL) INTERRUPT ENABLE 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS UCB$W_PORTSTEP2 10A4 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS STEP 2 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP2 C490 UCB$W_PORTSTEP3 209B INTERRUPT VECTOR 000154 (OCTAL) INTERRUPT ENABLE STEP 3 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP3 0003 MAPPING REGISTER #482 SELECTED UCB$W_PORTSTEP4 40D6 CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #6. PORT IS KDA50Q STEP 4 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP4 0403 GO HOST REQUESTS "LAST FAIL" CONTROLLER SCRATCHPAD PRESENT "BURST" 2. 16-BIT TRANSFER(S) MAPPING ALLOCATION INFORMATION VEC$L_MAPREG 000E81E2 "MPR" #482. STARTING MAP REGISTER "MPR"(S) PERMANENTLY ALLOCATED 14. MAP REGISTER(S) ALLOCATED DIRECT DATAPATH ORB$L_OWNER 00010004 OWNER UIC [001,004] V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:12:59 PAGE 2. UCB$L_CHAR 0C450000 SHARABLE AVAILABLE ERROR LOGGING CAPABLE OF INPUT CAPABLE OF OUTPUT UCB$W_STS 0000 UCB$L_OPCNT 00000000 0. QIO'S THIS UNIT UCB$W_ERRCNT 0001 1. ERRORS THIS UNIT UCB$W_NUMBINITS 0001 1. INIT SEQUENCE V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 PAGE 3. ******************************* ENTRY 475. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 133. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:12:54.77 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:44 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 DEVICE ATTENTION KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 "DSA" PORT SUB-SYSTEM, UNIT _V4300$PTB0:, INIT SEQUENCE COMPLETED SA 4034 CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #4. PORT IS TK50P STEP 4 INIT SEQUENCE UCB$W_PORTSTEP1 0BC0 PORT SUPPORTS ADDRESS MAPPING PORT ALLOWS HOST ODD ADDRESSES ENHANCED DIAGNOSTICS IMPLEMENTED 22-BIT HOST ADDRESSING SUPPORTED STEP 1 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP1 A4B0 INTERRUPT VECTOR 000300(OCTAL) INTERRUPT ENABLE 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS UCB$W_PORTSTEP2 10A4 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS STEP 2 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP2 8C90 UCB$W_PORTSTEP3 20B0 INTERRUPT VECTOR 000300 (OCTAL) INTERRUPT ENABLE STEP 3 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP3 0003 MAPPING REGISTER #70 SELECTED UCB$W_PORTSTEP4 4034 CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #4. PORT IS TK50P STEP 4 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP4 0403 GO HOST REQUESTS "LAST FAIL" CONTROLLER SCRATCHPAD PRESENT "BURST" 2. 16-BIT TRANSFER(S) MAPPING ALLOCATION INFORMATION VEC$L_MAPREG 000E81C6 "MPR" #454. STARTING MAP REGISTER "MPR"(S) PERMANENTLY ALLOCATED 14. MAP REGISTER(S) ALLOCATED DIRECT DATAPATH V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 PAGE 4. ORB$L_OWNER 00010004 OWNER UIC [001,004] UCB$L_CHAR 0C450000 SHARABLE AVAILABLE ERROR LOGGING CAPABLE OF INPUT CAPABLE OF OUTPUT UCB$W_STS 0000 UCB$L_OPCNT 00000000 0. QIO'S THIS UNIT UCB$W_ERRCNT 0001 1. ERRORS THIS UNIT UCB$W_NUMBINITS 0001 1. INIT SEQUENCE V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 PAGE 5. ******************************* ENTRY 476. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 134. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:12:54.77 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:44 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 ERL$LOGMESSAGE KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 "DSA" PORT SUB-SYSTEM, UNIT _V4300$PUA0: MESSAGE TYPE 0004 UDA PORT MESSAGE MSLG$L_CMD_REF 00000000 MSLG$W_SEQ_NUM 0000 SEQUENCE #0. MSLG$B_FORMAT 00 CONTROLLER LOG MSLG$B_FLAGS 01 SEQUENCE NUMBER RESET UNRECOVERABLE ERROR MSLG$W_EVENT 0010 RECORD DATA TRUNCATED MSLG$Q_CNT_ID 00D60000 01020000 UNIQUE IDENTIFIER, 000000D60000(X) MASS STORAGE CONTROLLER UDA50 MSLG$B_CNT_SVR D6 CONTROLLER SOFTWARE VERSION #214. MSLG$B_CNT_HVR 04 CONTROLLER HARDWARE REVISION #4. V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 PAGE 6. ******************************* ENTRY 477. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 135. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:12:54.84 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:44 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 DEVICE ATTENTION KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 TK70P SUB-SYSTEM, V4300$PTA0: FAILED TO LOCATE PORT MICRO-CODE IMAGE ******************************* ENTRY 478. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 136. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:14:04.39 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:01:53 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 MOUNT VOLUME KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 UNIT _DISK2$DIA2:, VOLUME LABEL "DATA2" 12. QIO OPERATIONS THIS UNIT, 0. ERRORS THIS UNIT ******************************* ENTRY 479. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 137. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:23:02.82 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:10:52 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 TIME STAMP KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 ******************************* ENTRY 480. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 138. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:30:48.62 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:18:37 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 DISMOUNT VOLUME KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 UNIT _DISK2$DIA2:, VOLUME LABEL "DATA2" 17. QIO OPERATIONS THIS UNIT, 0. ERRORS THIS UNIT 5. QIO OPERATIONS THIS VOLUME, 0. ERRORS THIS VOLUME V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 PAGE 7. ******************************* ENTRY 481. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 139. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:30:58.08 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:18:47 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 FATAL BUGCHECK KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 OPERATOR, Operator requested system shutdown ******************************* ENTRY 482. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 140. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:43:24.27 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:20 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 SYSTEM START-UP KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 TIME OF DAY CLOCK 8639D08A ******************************* ENTRY 483. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 141. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:43:25.39 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:21 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 MOUNT VOLUME KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 UNIT _DISK0$DIA0:, VOLUME LABEL "OVMSVAXSYS" 689. QIO OPERATIONS THIS UNIT, 0. ERRORS THIS UNIT V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 PAGE 8. ******************************* ENTRY 484. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 142. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:43:48.59 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:45 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 DEVICE ATTENTION KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 "DSA" PORT SUB-SYSTEM, UNIT _V4300$PUA0:, INIT SEQUENCE COMPLETED SA 40D6 CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #6. PORT IS KDA50Q STEP 4 INIT SEQUENCE UCB$W_PORTSTEP1 0B00 ENHANCED DIAGNOSTICS IMPLEMENTED 22-BIT HOST ADDRESSING SUPPORTED STEP 1 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP1 A49B INTERRUPT VECTOR 000154(OCTAL) INTERRUPT ENABLE 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS UCB$W_PORTSTEP2 10A4 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS STEP 2 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP2 C450 UCB$W_PORTSTEP3 209B INTERRUPT VECTOR 000154 (OCTAL) INTERRUPT ENABLE STEP 3 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP3 0003 MAPPING REGISTER #482 SELECTED UCB$W_PORTSTEP4 40D6 CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #6. PORT IS KDA50Q STEP 4 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP4 0403 GO HOST REQUESTS "LAST FAIL" CONTROLLER SCRATCHPAD PRESENT "BURST" 2. 16-BIT TRANSFER(S) MAPPING ALLOCATION INFORMATION VEC$L_MAPREG 000E81E2 "MPR" #482. STARTING MAP REGISTER "MPR"(S) PERMANENTLY ALLOCATED 14. MAP REGISTER(S) ALLOCATED DIRECT DATAPATH ORB$L_OWNER 00010004 OWNER UIC [001,004] V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 PAGE 9. UCB$L_CHAR 0C450000 SHARABLE AVAILABLE ERROR LOGGING CAPABLE OF INPUT CAPABLE OF OUTPUT UCB$W_STS 0000 UCB$L_OPCNT 00000000 0. QIO'S THIS UNIT UCB$W_ERRCNT 0001 1. ERRORS THIS UNIT UCB$W_NUMBINITS 0001 1. INIT SEQUENCE V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 PAGE 10. ******************************* ENTRY 485. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 143. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:43:48.60 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:45 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 DEVICE ATTENTION KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 "DSA" PORT SUB-SYSTEM, UNIT _V4300$PTB0:, INIT SEQUENCE COMPLETED SA 4034 CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #4. PORT IS TK50P STEP 4 INIT SEQUENCE UCB$W_PORTSTEP1 0BC0 PORT SUPPORTS ADDRESS MAPPING PORT ALLOWS HOST ODD ADDRESSES ENHANCED DIAGNOSTICS IMPLEMENTED 22-BIT HOST ADDRESSING SUPPORTED STEP 1 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP1 A4B0 INTERRUPT VECTOR 000300(OCTAL) INTERRUPT ENABLE 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS UCB$W_PORTSTEP2 10A4 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS STEP 2 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP2 8C50 UCB$W_PORTSTEP3 20B0 INTERRUPT VECTOR 000300 (OCTAL) INTERRUPT ENABLE STEP 3 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP3 0003 MAPPING REGISTER #70 SELECTED UCB$W_PORTSTEP4 4034 CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #4. PORT IS TK50P STEP 4 UCB$W_HOSTSTEP4 0403 GO HOST REQUESTS "LAST FAIL" CONTROLLER SCRATCHPAD PRESENT "BURST" 2. 16-BIT TRANSFER(S) MAPPING ALLOCATION INFORMATION VEC$L_MAPREG 000E81C6 "MPR" #454. STARTING MAP REGISTER "MPR"(S) PERMANENTLY ALLOCATED 14. MAP REGISTER(S) ALLOCATED DIRECT DATAPATH V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 PAGE 11. ORB$L_OWNER 00010004 OWNER UIC [001,004] UCB$L_CHAR 0C450000 SHARABLE AVAILABLE ERROR LOGGING CAPABLE OF INPUT CAPABLE OF OUTPUT UCB$W_STS 0000 UCB$L_OPCNT 00000000 0. QIO'S THIS UNIT UCB$W_ERRCNT 0001 1. ERRORS THIS UNIT UCB$W_NUMBINITS 0001 1. INIT SEQUENCE V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 PAGE 12. ******************************* ENTRY 486. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 144. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:43:48.60 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:45 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 ERL$LOGMESSAGE KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 "DSA" PORT SUB-SYSTEM, UNIT _V4300$PUA0: MESSAGE TYPE 0004 UDA PORT MESSAGE MSLG$L_CMD_REF 00000000 MSLG$W_SEQ_NUM 0000 SEQUENCE #0. MSLG$B_FORMAT 00 CONTROLLER LOG MSLG$B_FLAGS 01 SEQUENCE NUMBER RESET UNRECOVERABLE ERROR MSLG$W_EVENT 0010 RECORD DATA TRUNCATED MSLG$Q_CNT_ID 00D60000 01020000 UNIQUE IDENTIFIER, 000000D60000(X) MASS STORAGE CONTROLLER UDA50 MSLG$B_CNT_SVR D6 CONTROLLER SOFTWARE VERSION #214. MSLG$B_CNT_HVR 04 CONTROLLER HARDWARE REVISION #4. V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 PAGE 13. ******************************* ENTRY 487. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 145. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:43:48.67 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:45 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 DEVICE ATTENTION KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 TK70P SUB-SYSTEM, V4300$PTA0: FAILED TO LOCATE PORT MICRO-CODE IMAGE ******************************* ENTRY 488. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 146. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:43:53.42 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:49 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 MOUNT VOLUME KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 UNIT _DISK1$DIA1:, VOLUME LABEL "DATA1" 12. QIO OPERATIONS THIS UNIT, 0. ERRORS THIS UNIT ******************************* ENTRY 489. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 147. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:45:13.75 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:02:10 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 MOUNT VOLUME KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 UNIT _DISK2$DIA2:, VOLUME LABEL "DATA2" 12. QIO OPERATIONS THIS UNIT, 0. ERRORS THIS UNIT ******************************* ENTRY 490. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 149. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 14:04:12.27 SYS_TYPE 01340401 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:21:08 SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 TIME STAMP KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 ANALYZE/ERROR/SINCE=18-AUG-2015 00:00:00.00/FULL/OUTPUT=HUF ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What makes me wonder is that I've wrote that the vector of the card schould be 300...but: $ mcr sysgen SYSGEN> SH/CONF System CSR and Vectors on 18-AUG-2015 14:11:12.81 Name: PAA Units: 1 Nexus:0 (CI ) Name: PAB Units: 1 Nexus:1 (CI ) Name: EZA Units: 4 Nexus:2 (NI ) Name: PUA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 772150 Vector1: 154 Vector2: 000 Name: PTA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 774500 Vector1: 260 Vector2: 000 Name: PTB Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760404 Vector1: 300 Vector2: 000 Name: TXA Units: 8 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760440 Vector1: 310 Vector2: 314 SYSGEN> ...floating vector? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Aug 18 07:38:00 2015 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:38:00 +0000 Subject: More Manuals Plus Rescue Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D2C0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4711 Choice quote: "I am writing this from the car, sitting in the passenger seat with my shoes off. I have been standing for 12 hours. I've been giving introductions and tours and explanations and theories and everything else that comes when you put a bunch of strangers together with a single-minded purpose. They have been too good. Way better than anybody deserves in the way of volunteers. They have been helpful, kind, inquisitive, dedicated. They have come from miles around. Sometime around 11 a.m., it became very obvious that the 252 banker boxes we have bought or a laughable underestimation. We were going to need more. We are going to need much more, and we were going to need it now. I made a call to the Uline Company, and asked for the impossible: I wanted 8 pallets of boxes, delivered within the day. And within four hours, they arrived. To deliver 1052 banker boxes within 4 hours, combined with the cost of the boxes themselves, was $4000." From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Aug 18 07:46:20 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:46:20 -0400 Subject: RLV11 Debugging In-Reply-To: <55D29CE8.3020208@charter.net> References: <55D29CE8.3020208@charter.net> Message-ID: <43D5C9A3-CBC0-4818-A757-59A83CB7FAF8@comcast.net> > On Aug 17, 2015, at 10:48 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > BR level is the bus request level for an Interrupt. BR 4 is typical. On Unibus machines, more of the BR levels were used. The rule of thumb was BR4 for slow devices (like terminals and printers), BR5 for fast devices (disks and tapes), BR6 for real time critical devices (clock, also DECtape because you had to respond to a ?read block number? interrupt fast enough to start reading the block before it passed over the heads). BR7 could in theory be used by devices but I don?t believe it ever was in practice. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Aug 18 08:04:32 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 09:04:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tired memory? Message-ID: <20150818130432.7820118C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I've seen an odd phenomenon on some older QBUS memory boards I've got in. I can't understand it, and I'm wondering if anyone else has i) seen it, or ii) understand the cause. What happens is that the _first_ time I plug them in, some don't work - some (maybe all, sometimes) locations are mangling the data (I forget whether it's dropped or picked bits). Oh, and we're talking 4164's/41256's (or equivalents) here, for the actual devices. However, if I let them sit for a bit (powered off), and then try again, they work fine! I first experienced this phenomenon on some M8044's, which have on-board electrolytic filter caps, so I was guessing it was caused by some sort of noise caused by the caps not working, and after a little while powered on, the caps reformed, and things started to work. However, I just experienced the same phenomenon on a Clearpoint DCME/Q4E board - which doesn't have any electrolytic caps on it. So that can't be it. Anyone have any clue what's going on? (Oh, and of course, for others - if you buy and old memory board, and it doesn't work... don't immediately put it in the 'bad' pile, wait a bit, and try again. You might be seeing this.) Noel From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 18 08:08:42 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:08:42 -0500 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBB6B30@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <55D10C24.1050805@charter.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBB6B30@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <55D32E5A.3070505@charter.net> On 8/17/2015 1:51 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Jay Jaeger > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2015 3:18 PM > > On 8/16/2015 9:00 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > >>> We did a lot more debugging on the TC12 LINCtape controller. > >> Second gut hunch is that it would be hard to see how the drive could >> cause this UNLESS the TC12 uses one side of the redundant tape channels >> in one direction, and the other side in the other direction. > > Not possible. The *drive* wire-ORs the redundant channels, before the > data goes into (or after it comes out of) the controller. *That's* the > redundancy. When reading in the reverse direction, only the mark tracks > on a DECtape read the same way backwards as forwards; LINCtape uses a > different set of markers. > Well, not exactly a wired or, per my TU56 manual, but yeah point taken. At least on the TU56 the head windings are connected in series, resulting in the *analog* sum. (A wired or didn't quite make sense to me - it wouldn't really be redundant, so I looked it up). But it brings me back to my original point - I don't see how this could be the drive unless the block number in question always involves a particular channel on the tape. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 18 08:09:35 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:09:35 -0500 Subject: RLV11 Debugging In-Reply-To: <43D5C9A3-CBC0-4818-A757-59A83CB7FAF8@comcast.net> References: <55D29CE8.3020208@charter.net> <43D5C9A3-CBC0-4818-A757-59A83CB7FAF8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55D32E8F.5070004@charter.net> On 8/18/2015 7:46 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Aug 17, 2015, at 10:48 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> >> BR level is the bus request level for an Interrupt. BR 4 is typical. > > On Unibus machines, more of the BR levels were used. The rule of thumb was BR4 for slow devices (like terminals and printers), BR5 for fast devices (disks and tapes), BR6 for real time critical devices (clock, also DECtape because you had to respond to a ?read block number? interrupt fast enough to start reading the block before it passed over the heads). BR7 could in theory be used by devices but I don?t believe it ever was in practice. > > paul > Yes, but this discussion regards an RLV11. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 18 08:12:36 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:12:36 -0500 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <041f01d0d92f$09f006c0$1dd01440$@gmail.com> <55D29E7C.5060402@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D32F44.2020306@charter.net> On 8/17/2015 10:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > @ Jay, > > Ha, yeah.. I've seen a number of his vids.. Don't mean to offend, but he > comes off a bit squirrely (hyper) for me. > Probably has to or viewers would fall asleep. Jim Cramer on CNBC operates the same way. > Yet another freaking Aussie nutcase, lol - but he does seem to get some > good info across, in between the audible glamour. > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 9:54 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> You might check EEVBLOG on Youtube. The guy's a blast and covers what >> you are asking about. He indicates 8 bits is really not to his liking >> at all, to go for more. He also goes over the sampling rate of some of >> the USB DSO's out there. >> >> EEVBlog #13: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTG6jWL0ZqA >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev121xAt_k4 >> >> JRJ >> From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 18 08:35:55 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:35:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Aug 2015, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I certainly feel bitsavers is a good model, and although I'm physically > not too far away from the stuff, I'm not sure I have much to offer other > than disk space on a server for staging. > > http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4695 > > (previous link: http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 ) The problem I've found with scans is that even at 600 dpi you lose detail necessary to make use of a lot of the material in these types of manuals (especially parts designations and values on schematics). It is amazing just how high the print quality is for many of these 1950s/60s/70s manuals. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 08:48:08 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 10:48:08 -0300 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: I have many schematics scanned in 300dpi and they are great even for a3 printing. Take a lookk at "esquematico de informatica cce" (google it) as an example... Em 18/08/2015 10:36, "Tothwolf" escreveu: > On Tue, 18 Aug 2015, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > I certainly feel bitsavers is a good model, and although I'm physically >> not too far away from the stuff, I'm not sure I have much to offer other >> than disk space on a server for staging. >> >> http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4695 >> >> (previous link: http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 ) >> > > The problem I've found with scans is that even at 600 dpi you lose detail > necessary to make use of a lot of the material in these types of manuals > (especially parts designations and values on schematics). It is amazing > just how high the print quality is for many of these 1950s/60s/70s manuals. > From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Aug 18 08:57:12 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 15:57:12 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20150818135712.GB2295@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > > On 2015-08-18 11:31, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > >Jerry Weiss wrote: > > > > > > > >>Sorry if some of the suggestions aren?t appropriate, was just throwing a > > > >>few things out. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>$analyze/error/since=today/full/include=tx > > > >> > > > >>Can you post a sample of the output for one of the lines that has an > > > >>error? > > > >> > > > >>Regards, > > > >>Jerry > > > >> > > > > > > > >Hmm... > > > > > > > > > > > >$analyze/error/since=yesterday/full/include=tx > > > >Error Log Report Generator Version V7.1 > > > >%ERF-F-INVQUAVA1, value 'TX' invalid for /INCLUDE qualifier > > > >$ > > > > > > > >I've looked over what was reported with $analyze/error/since=yesterday/full > > > >but haven't found anything interesting .. > > > > > > Not sure why /include=tx was suggested. I don't think that makes sense. > > > Anyway, you found a way around that. Otherwise, the device name should > > > be used, which should have been TT I believe. > > > > > > But I would expect there to be some information in the error log as your > > > error count is non-zero. Strange... > > > > > > Things that would be interesting to check more is that you really have > > > the right device type and driver installed. > > > > > > Johnny > > > > I've pulled the card in the meantime and looked at the Qbus connectors > > from the backplane using a lamp..they are looking nice (there lives a > > really tiny spider in there, but I dont' think that it would hurt something > > :-) No way to pull it out w/o dismantling the machine). > > Now I have connected 5 Volts to the xtal oscillator at the pcb, unfortunately > > it is ok also, 4,5Vss and the frequency is correct. > > Now I'm resoldering the PLCC housed gate array on the board with hotair, but > > I don't think that it would change anything, the soldering points are > > looking good so far. > > > > :-( > > > > after that I will retest the board and looking again to the error log. > > Please be patient.. > > > > > ..ok, nothing has changed (as expected) :-( > > > The additional VT420 is connected to txa3: and I haven't changed the term > parameters since reboot: > > $ sh term txa3: > Terminal: _TXA3: Device_Type: Unknown Owner: No Owner > > Input: 9600 LFfill: 0 Width: 80 Parity: None > Output: 9600 CRfill: 0 Page: 24 > > Terminal Characteristics: > Interactive Echo Type_ahead No Escape > No Hostsync TTsync Lowercase No Tab > Wrap Scope No Remote No Eightbit > Broadcast No Readsync No Form Fulldup > No Modem No Local_echo Autobaud No Hangup > No Brdcstmbx No DMA No Altypeahd Set_speed > No Commsync Line Editing Overstrike editing No Fallback > No Dialup No Secure server No Disconnect No Pasthru > No Syspassword No SIXEL Graphics No Soft Characters No Printer Port > Numeric Keypad No ANSI_CRT No Regis No Block_mode > No Advanced_video No Edit_mode No DEC_CRT No DEC_CRT2 > No DEC_CRT3 No DEC_CRT4 No DEC_CRT5 No Ansi_Color > VMS Style Input > $ > > I've tried 5 times to copy systartup_vms.com to txa3: since reboot: > > $ copy SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM txa3: > %COPY-E-WRITEERR, error writing TXA3:[]SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM;5 > -RMS-F-WER, file write error > -SYSTEM-F-TIMEOUT, device timeout > %COPY-W-NOTCMPLT, SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM;5 not completely > copied > $ > > sh dev counts 5 errors for the tty line: > > Device Device Error > Name Status Count > FTA0: Offline 0 > OPA0: Online 0 > TNA0: Offline 0 > TNA2: Online 0 > TXA0: Online 0 > TXA1: Online 0 > TXA2: Online 0 > TXA3: Online 5 > TXA4: Online 0 > TXA5: Online 0 > TXA6: Online 0 > TXA7: Online 0 > VTA0: Offline 0 > > But I see nothing in the error log regarding this. > > Here comes the error log from analyze/error/since=today/full/output=huf > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ******************************* ENTRY 472. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 130. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:12:31.08 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:20 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > SYSTEM START-UP KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > TIME OF DAY CLOCK 862C0023 > ******************************* ENTRY 473. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 131. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:12:32.19 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:21 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > MOUNT VOLUME KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > UNIT _DISK0$DIA0:, VOLUME LABEL "OVMSVAXSYS" > > 689. QIO OPERATIONS THIS UNIT, 0. ERRORS THIS UNIT > > V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:12:59 > PAGE 1. > > ******************************* ENTRY 474. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 132. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:12:54.76 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:44 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > DEVICE ATTENTION KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > "DSA" PORT SUB-SYSTEM, UNIT _V4300$PUA0:, INIT SEQUENCE COMPLETED > > SA 40D6 > CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #6. > PORT IS KDA50Q > STEP 4 > > INIT SEQUENCE > > UCB$W_PORTSTEP1 0B00 > ENHANCED DIAGNOSTICS IMPLEMENTED > 22-BIT HOST ADDRESSING SUPPORTED > STEP 1 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP1 A49B > INTERRUPT VECTOR 000154(OCTAL) > INTERRUPT ENABLE > 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS > 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS > UCB$W_PORTSTEP2 10A4 > 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS > 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS > STEP 2 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP2 C490 > UCB$W_PORTSTEP3 209B > INTERRUPT VECTOR 000154 (OCTAL) > INTERRUPT ENABLE > STEP 3 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP3 0003 > MAPPING REGISTER #482 SELECTED > UCB$W_PORTSTEP4 40D6 > CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #6. > PORT IS KDA50Q > STEP 4 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP4 0403 > GO > HOST REQUESTS "LAST FAIL" > CONTROLLER SCRATCHPAD PRESENT > "BURST" 2. 16-BIT TRANSFER(S) > > MAPPING ALLOCATION INFORMATION > > VEC$L_MAPREG 000E81E2 > "MPR" #482. STARTING MAP REGISTER > "MPR"(S) PERMANENTLY ALLOCATED > 14. MAP REGISTER(S) ALLOCATED > DIRECT DATAPATH > ORB$L_OWNER 00010004 > OWNER UIC [001,004] > > V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:12:59 > PAGE 2. > > UCB$L_CHAR 0C450000 > SHARABLE > AVAILABLE > ERROR LOGGING > CAPABLE OF INPUT > CAPABLE OF OUTPUT > UCB$W_STS 0000 > UCB$L_OPCNT 00000000 > 0. QIO'S THIS UNIT > UCB$W_ERRCNT 0001 > 1. ERRORS THIS UNIT > UCB$W_NUMBINITS 0001 > 1. INIT SEQUENCE > > V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 > PAGE 3. > > ******************************* ENTRY 475. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 133. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:12:54.77 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:44 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > DEVICE ATTENTION KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > "DSA" PORT SUB-SYSTEM, UNIT _V4300$PTB0:, INIT SEQUENCE COMPLETED > > SA 4034 > CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #4. > PORT IS TK50P > STEP 4 > > INIT SEQUENCE > > UCB$W_PORTSTEP1 0BC0 > PORT SUPPORTS ADDRESS MAPPING > PORT ALLOWS HOST ODD ADDRESSES > ENHANCED DIAGNOSTICS IMPLEMENTED > 22-BIT HOST ADDRESSING SUPPORTED > STEP 1 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP1 A4B0 > INTERRUPT VECTOR 000300(OCTAL) > INTERRUPT ENABLE > 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS > 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS > UCB$W_PORTSTEP2 10A4 > 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS > 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS > STEP 2 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP2 8C90 > UCB$W_PORTSTEP3 20B0 > INTERRUPT VECTOR 000300 (OCTAL) > INTERRUPT ENABLE > STEP 3 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP3 0003 > MAPPING REGISTER #70 SELECTED > UCB$W_PORTSTEP4 4034 > CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #4. > PORT IS TK50P > STEP 4 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP4 0403 > GO > HOST REQUESTS "LAST FAIL" > CONTROLLER SCRATCHPAD PRESENT > "BURST" 2. 16-BIT TRANSFER(S) > > MAPPING ALLOCATION INFORMATION > > VEC$L_MAPREG 000E81C6 > "MPR" #454. STARTING MAP REGISTER > "MPR"(S) PERMANENTLY ALLOCATED > 14. MAP REGISTER(S) ALLOCATED > DIRECT DATAPATH > > V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 > PAGE 4. > > ORB$L_OWNER 00010004 > OWNER UIC [001,004] > UCB$L_CHAR 0C450000 > SHARABLE > AVAILABLE > ERROR LOGGING > CAPABLE OF INPUT > CAPABLE OF OUTPUT > UCB$W_STS 0000 > UCB$L_OPCNT 00000000 > 0. QIO'S THIS UNIT > UCB$W_ERRCNT 0001 > 1. ERRORS THIS UNIT > UCB$W_NUMBINITS 0001 > 1. INIT SEQUENCE > > V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 > PAGE 5. > > ******************************* ENTRY 476. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 134. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:12:54.77 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:44 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > ERL$LOGMESSAGE KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > "DSA" PORT SUB-SYSTEM, UNIT _V4300$PUA0: > > MESSAGE TYPE 0004 > UDA PORT MESSAGE > MSLG$L_CMD_REF 00000000 > MSLG$W_SEQ_NUM 0000 > SEQUENCE #0. > MSLG$B_FORMAT 00 > CONTROLLER LOG > MSLG$B_FLAGS 01 > SEQUENCE NUMBER RESET > UNRECOVERABLE ERROR > MSLG$W_EVENT 0010 > RECORD DATA TRUNCATED > MSLG$Q_CNT_ID 00D60000 > 01020000 > UNIQUE IDENTIFIER, 000000D60000(X) > MASS STORAGE CONTROLLER > UDA50 > MSLG$B_CNT_SVR D6 > CONTROLLER SOFTWARE VERSION #214. > MSLG$B_CNT_HVR 04 > CONTROLLER HARDWARE REVISION #4. > > V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 > PAGE 6. > > ******************************* ENTRY 477. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 135. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:12:54.84 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:44 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > DEVICE ATTENTION KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > TK70P SUB-SYSTEM, V4300$PTA0: > > FAILED TO LOCATE PORT MICRO-CODE IMAGE > ******************************* ENTRY 478. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 136. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:14:04.39 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:01:53 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > MOUNT VOLUME KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > UNIT _DISK2$DIA2:, VOLUME LABEL "DATA2" > > 12. QIO OPERATIONS THIS UNIT, 0. ERRORS THIS UNIT > ******************************* ENTRY 479. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 137. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:23:02.82 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:10:52 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > TIME STAMP KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > ******************************* ENTRY 480. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 138. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:30:48.62 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:18:37 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > DISMOUNT VOLUME KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > UNIT _DISK2$DIA2:, VOLUME LABEL "DATA2" > > 17. QIO OPERATIONS THIS UNIT, 0. ERRORS THIS UNIT > 5. QIO OPERATIONS THIS VOLUME, 0. ERRORS THIS VOLUME > > V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 > PAGE 7. > > ******************************* ENTRY 481. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 139. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 11:30:58.08 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:18:47 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > FATAL BUGCHECK KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > OPERATOR, Operator requested system shutdown > ******************************* ENTRY 482. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 140. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:43:24.27 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:20 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > SYSTEM START-UP KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > TIME OF DAY CLOCK 8639D08A > ******************************* ENTRY 483. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 141. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:43:25.39 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:21 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > MOUNT VOLUME KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > UNIT _DISK0$DIA0:, VOLUME LABEL "OVMSVAXSYS" > > 689. QIO OPERATIONS THIS UNIT, 0. ERRORS THIS UNIT > > V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 > PAGE 8. > > ******************************* ENTRY 484. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 142. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:43:48.59 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:45 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > DEVICE ATTENTION KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > "DSA" PORT SUB-SYSTEM, UNIT _V4300$PUA0:, INIT SEQUENCE COMPLETED > > SA 40D6 > CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #6. > PORT IS KDA50Q > STEP 4 > > INIT SEQUENCE > > UCB$W_PORTSTEP1 0B00 > ENHANCED DIAGNOSTICS IMPLEMENTED > 22-BIT HOST ADDRESSING SUPPORTED > STEP 1 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP1 A49B > INTERRUPT VECTOR 000154(OCTAL) > INTERRUPT ENABLE > 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS > 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS > UCB$W_PORTSTEP2 10A4 > 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS > 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS > STEP 2 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP2 C450 > UCB$W_PORTSTEP3 209B > INTERRUPT VECTOR 000154 (OCTAL) > INTERRUPT ENABLE > STEP 3 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP3 0003 > MAPPING REGISTER #482 SELECTED > UCB$W_PORTSTEP4 40D6 > CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #6. > PORT IS KDA50Q > STEP 4 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP4 0403 > GO > HOST REQUESTS "LAST FAIL" > CONTROLLER SCRATCHPAD PRESENT > "BURST" 2. 16-BIT TRANSFER(S) > > MAPPING ALLOCATION INFORMATION > > VEC$L_MAPREG 000E81E2 > "MPR" #482. STARTING MAP REGISTER > "MPR"(S) PERMANENTLY ALLOCATED > 14. MAP REGISTER(S) ALLOCATED > DIRECT DATAPATH > ORB$L_OWNER 00010004 > OWNER UIC [001,004] > > V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 > PAGE 9. > > UCB$L_CHAR 0C450000 > SHARABLE > AVAILABLE > ERROR LOGGING > CAPABLE OF INPUT > CAPABLE OF OUTPUT > UCB$W_STS 0000 > UCB$L_OPCNT 00000000 > 0. QIO'S THIS UNIT > UCB$W_ERRCNT 0001 > 1. ERRORS THIS UNIT > UCB$W_NUMBINITS 0001 > 1. INIT SEQUENCE > > V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 > PAGE 10. > > ******************************* ENTRY 485. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 143. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:43:48.60 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:45 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > DEVICE ATTENTION KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > "DSA" PORT SUB-SYSTEM, UNIT _V4300$PTB0:, INIT SEQUENCE COMPLETED > > SA 4034 > CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #4. > PORT IS TK50P > STEP 4 > > INIT SEQUENCE > > UCB$W_PORTSTEP1 0BC0 > PORT SUPPORTS ADDRESS MAPPING > PORT ALLOWS HOST ODD ADDRESSES > ENHANCED DIAGNOSTICS IMPLEMENTED > 22-BIT HOST ADDRESSING SUPPORTED > STEP 1 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP1 A4B0 > INTERRUPT VECTOR 000300(OCTAL) > INTERRUPT ENABLE > 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS > 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS > UCB$W_PORTSTEP2 10A4 > 16. RING RESPONSE SLOTS > 16. COMMAND RING SLOTS > STEP 2 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP2 8C50 > UCB$W_PORTSTEP3 20B0 > INTERRUPT VECTOR 000300 (OCTAL) > INTERRUPT ENABLE > STEP 3 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP3 0003 > MAPPING REGISTER #70 SELECTED > UCB$W_PORTSTEP4 4034 > CONTROLLER MICRO-CODE #4. > PORT IS TK50P > STEP 4 > UCB$W_HOSTSTEP4 0403 > GO > HOST REQUESTS "LAST FAIL" > CONTROLLER SCRATCHPAD PRESENT > "BURST" 2. 16-BIT TRANSFER(S) > > MAPPING ALLOCATION INFORMATION > > VEC$L_MAPREG 000E81C6 > "MPR" #454. STARTING MAP REGISTER > "MPR"(S) PERMANENTLY ALLOCATED > 14. MAP REGISTER(S) ALLOCATED > DIRECT DATAPATH > > V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 > PAGE 11. > > ORB$L_OWNER 00010004 > OWNER UIC [001,004] > UCB$L_CHAR 0C450000 > SHARABLE > AVAILABLE > ERROR LOGGING > CAPABLE OF INPUT > CAPABLE OF OUTPUT > UCB$W_STS 0000 > UCB$L_OPCNT 00000000 > 0. QIO'S THIS UNIT > UCB$W_ERRCNT 0001 > 1. ERRORS THIS UNIT > UCB$W_NUMBINITS 0001 > 1. INIT SEQUENCE > > V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 > PAGE 12. > > ******************************* ENTRY 486. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 144. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:43:48.60 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:45 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > ERL$LOGMESSAGE KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > "DSA" PORT SUB-SYSTEM, UNIT _V4300$PUA0: > > MESSAGE TYPE 0004 > UDA PORT MESSAGE > MSLG$L_CMD_REF 00000000 > MSLG$W_SEQ_NUM 0000 > SEQUENCE #0. > MSLG$B_FORMAT 00 > CONTROLLER LOG > MSLG$B_FLAGS 01 > SEQUENCE NUMBER RESET > UNRECOVERABLE ERROR > MSLG$W_EVENT 0010 > RECORD DATA TRUNCATED > MSLG$Q_CNT_ID 00D60000 > 01020000 > UNIQUE IDENTIFIER, 000000D60000(X) > MASS STORAGE CONTROLLER > UDA50 > MSLG$B_CNT_SVR D6 > CONTROLLER SOFTWARE VERSION #214. > MSLG$B_CNT_HVR 04 > CONTROLLER HARDWARE REVISION #4. > > V A X / V M S SYSTEM ERROR REPORT COMPILED 18-AUG-2015 14:13:00 > PAGE 13. > > ******************************* ENTRY 487. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 145. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:43:48.67 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:45 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > DEVICE ATTENTION KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > TK70P SUB-SYSTEM, V4300$PTA0: > > FAILED TO LOCATE PORT MICRO-CODE IMAGE > ******************************* ENTRY 488. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 146. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:43:53.42 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:00:49 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > MOUNT VOLUME KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > UNIT _DISK1$DIA1:, VOLUME LABEL "DATA1" > > 12. QIO OPERATIONS THIS UNIT, 0. ERRORS THIS UNIT > ******************************* ENTRY 489. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 147. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 13:45:13.75 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:02:10 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > MOUNT VOLUME KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > > UNIT _DISK2$DIA2:, VOLUME LABEL "DATA2" > > 12. QIO OPERATIONS THIS UNIT, 0. ERRORS THIS UNIT > ******************************* ENTRY 490. ******************************* > ERROR SEQUENCE 149. LOGGED ON: SID 0B000006 > DATE/TIME 18-AUG-2015 14:04:12.27 SYS_TYPE 01340401 > SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 00:21:08 > SCS NODE: V4300 VAX/VMS V7.3 > > TIME STAMP KA670-AA CPU FW REV# 6. CONSOLE FW REV# 3.4 > ANALYZE/ERROR/SINCE=18-AUG-2015 00:00:00.00/FULL/OUTPUT=HUF > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > What makes me wonder is that I've wrote that the vector of the card schould > be 300...but: > > > $ mcr sysgen > SYSGEN> SH/CONF > > System CSR and Vectors on 18-AUG-2015 14:11:12.81 > > Name: PAA Units: 1 Nexus:0 (CI ) > Name: PAB Units: 1 Nexus:1 (CI ) > Name: EZA Units: 4 Nexus:2 (NI ) > Name: PUA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 772150 Vector1: 154 Vector2: 000 > Name: PTA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 774500 Vector1: 260 Vector2: 000 > Name: PTB Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760404 Vector1: 300 Vector2: 000 > Name: TXA Units: 8 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760440 Vector1: 310 Vector2: 314 > SYSGEN> > > ...floating vector? > ..tried switchuing the board from the DHU11 Mode to DHV11 and rebooted, problem is exactly the same... I'm now out of ideas..other suggestions? I would search my stock for the DHV-11 compatible Emulex card that I have and try it in that machine next. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Aug 18 09:20:15 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 10:20:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Clearpoint DCME/Q4E configuration Message-ID: <20150818142015.EB47A18C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > DEC's memory boards never had any jumpers for PMI as such. Yes, and if you plug one of their PMI memory boards into a Q/Q backplane, it will emit magic smoke, too! :-) I think that's why this thing has the jumpers - to allow it to be used in a Q/Q backplane. It would, of course, only be normal (slower) QBUS memory, but at least one could use it there. However, I am unable to verify that hypothesis. (See below.) I looked at the jumpers along the edge in the C/D finger region, and a lot of them _do_ connect to pins used in the PMI bus. (Confusingly, a number connect to _other_ pins - I can see I have some detective work in front of me here!) However, that made it likely that the one that had jumpers on all those pins was configured for PMI use, so I rolled the dice, and tried plugging that board into a Q22/CD backplane, along with a KDJ11-B, and after a short bout of 'tired memory' (see my previous post), it did come up as a 4MB PMI memory! (Parity, though, not CRC - which might make sense, I guess - it has 148 memory chips on it, which is a multiple of 37, so 32 + byte parity, plus a spare chip, I would guess?) However, when I plugged the other one in - nada. No response at all; the boot PROM bitched about 'no memory at 0'. So I'm not sure _what_ that configuration is for. So then I took a flier (although the cards use the identical PCB, they do have a few minor differences in chip rev in a couple of the programmable chips), and put the jumper config from the working PMI card onto the other card, and it did 'sort of' come up as a PMI card. The boot PROM was complaining about "Memory CSR Error" (I'll have to investigate that further), _but_ the memory was shown (by the boot PROM 'map' command) as PMI, and my own memory-test program showed it was all working OK. Well, at least we have a jumper config that allows us to use these cards as PMI memory! Noel From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Aug 18 09:12:22 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 15:12:22 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 18 Aug 2015 15:57:12 +0200" <20150818135712.GB2295@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <01PPP0DPCLH00084J5@beyondthepale.ie> Holm Tiffe wrote: [snip] > > The additional VT420 is connected to txa3: and I haven't changed the term > parameters since reboot: > > $ sh term txa3: > Terminal: _TXA3: Device_Type: Unknown Owner: No Owner > > Input: 9600 LFfill: 0 Width: 80 Parity: None > Output: 9600 CRfill: 0 Page: 24 > > Terminal Characteristics: > Interactive Echo Type_ahead No Escape > No Hostsync TTsync Lowercase No Tab > Wrap Scope No Remote No Eightbit > Broadcast No Readsync No Form Fulldup > No Modem No Local_echo Autobaud No Hangup > No Brdcstmbx No DMA No Altypeahd Set_speed > No Commsync Line Editing Overstrike editing No Fallback > No Dialup No Secure server No Disconnect No Pasthru > No Syspassword No SIXEL Graphics No Soft Characters No Printer Port > Numeric Keypad No ANSI_CRT No Regis No Block_mode > No Advanced_video No Edit_mode No DEC_CRT No DEC_CRT2 > No DEC_CRT3 No DEC_CRT4 No DEC_CRT5 No Ansi_Color > VMS Style Input > $ [snip] > > I'm now out of ideas..other suggestions? > I would search my stock for the DHV-11 compatible Emulex card that I have > and try it in that machine next. > Does anything happen when you press return (maybe a few times because Autobaud is enabled) on the VT420? $ REPLY /ENABLE on the console before you try this might also help - if VMS was able to read from the terminal but not write to it, you might see nothing on the terminal but you could get an OPCOM message to say that a login attempt timed out, something like "error reading command input". Regards, Peter Coghlan. From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Aug 18 10:04:03 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 17:04:03 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150817173354.GA15305@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <55D34963.5010406@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-18 14:17, Holm Tiffe wrote: > What makes me wonder is that I've wrote that the vector of the card schould > be 300...but: What makes you say the card should have vector 300? > $ mcr sysgen > SYSGEN> SH/CONF > > System CSR and Vectors on 18-AUG-2015 14:11:12.81 > > Name: PAA Units: 1 Nexus:0 (CI ) > Name: PAB Units: 1 Nexus:1 (CI ) > Name: EZA Units: 4 Nexus:2 (NI ) > Name: PUA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 772150 Vector1: 154 Vector2: 000 > Name: PTA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 774500 Vector1: 260 Vector2: 000 > Name: PTB Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760404 Vector1: 300 Vector2: 000 > Name: TXA Units: 8 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760440 Vector1: 310 Vector2: 314 > SYSGEN> > > ...floating vector? Yes, both PTB and TXA uses a floating vector. PTB also have a higher "priority" in the configuration scheme, so it comes first. Which means the vector of TXA becomes 310. Note that this is the vectors the OS is assuming the device will be using. It does not mean that the actual hardware is using those vectors. That is what the switches are for. But they should match what the OS expect... Or else things will not work well. Johnny From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 18 10:21:55 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:21:55 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> On 8/18/15 4:33 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I certainly feel bitsavers is a good model Too bad Jason Scott doesn't "get it" He destroyed the organizational schema of bitsavers when he "mirrored" it and had his little band of minions "curate" it for IA. THAT is why I will have nothing to do with him. From ben at bensinclair.com Tue Aug 18 10:24:33 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 10:24:33 -0500 Subject: RLV11 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, I tried a few things, including reading the CSR, which doesn't appear to be what I expect. I ended up removing the RLV11 and making sure my system was still passing the other tests, and I've found that I can no longer run JKDBD0 to test the CPU, which was working before. It never prints any of its starting messages, and the run light turns off. So I'm apparently back to just trying to get the basic system running. I have no idea why this system is so flaky. One day it works great, the next it doesn't. Maybe it's just cursed! On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 4:43 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Now that I (hopefully) have my PDP 11/23 running (it passes CPU and memory > tests, anyway), I've been messing with my RLV11 so I can use my RL02. > > For a first step, I'm trying to run the VRLBC0 diskless diagnostic to check > the controller. I checked that the address and vector switches are set to > the defaults according to he manual, and also verified them with a > multimeter. > > The manual says the default vector address is 330, though the diagnostics > default to 160. I tried it both ways with the same result, though I should > be on 330. > > I'm not actually sure what "BR LEVEL" refers to, so I left that at the > default. > > This is a PDP 11/23 with an H-9273 backplane. I have the M8186, M8067, > M8043, then the two RLV11 boards, M8013 and M8014, then an M8012. > > Here's a sample run. It appears to start, but never does anything else. If > I give it a bad address it does complain, so I think I have the switches > correct. > > Does anyone know what I might try next? Thanks! > > > .R VRLBC0 > VRLBC0.BIC > > DRSSM-G2 > CVRLB-C-0 > RLV12 DISKLESS > UNIT IS RLV12, RLV11, OR RL11 > RSTRT ADR 145702 > DR>START > > CHANGE HW (L) ? Y > > # UNITS (D) ? 1 > > UNIT 0 > RLV12 (L) Y ? N > RLV11 (L) Y ? Y > CSR ADDRESS (O) 174400 ? > VECTOR (O) 160 ? 330 > BR LEVEL (O) 4 ? > > CHANGE SW (L) ? Y > > ERROR LIMIT FOR AUTO-DROP (D) 0 ? > > ALL REMAINING QUERIES ARE FOR OPTIONAL (MANUFACTURING) > G5388 TEST-LOOP-MODULE SET-UP. USE <^Z> TO BYPASS. > > G5388 TLM INSTALLED (L) N ? N > > MMU AVAILABLE > MEMORY SIZE 124 KW > 18 BIT ADDRESSING > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From ian at platinum.net Tue Aug 18 10:26:55 2015 From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:26:55 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> > On Aug 18, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 8/18/15 4:33 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> I certainly feel bitsavers is a good model > > Too bad Jason Scott doesn't "get it" > > He destroyed the organizational schema of bitsavers when he "mirrored" it > and had his little band of minions "curate" it for IA. > > THAT is why I will have nothing to do with him. Are you serious? Jason is currently sweating his balls off trying to save at least a portion of a huge warehouse of unique documentation under an incredibly tight deadline. Does it really matter *where* the information is stored? IA? Bitsavers? What?s stopping someone mirroring what IA grabs and pitting it into bitsavers? Do you really think now is the time to whine about archival philosophy? Is there anyone involved in bitsavers grabbing stuff from that warehouse? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 18 10:35:53 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:35:53 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: <55D350D9.7040208@bitsavers.org> On 8/18/15 8:26 AM, Ian McLaughlin wrote: > >Jason is currently sweating his balls off trying to save at least a portion of a huge warehouse of unique documentation under an incredibly tight deadline. Ask Will Donzelli about the Cyber Resources rescue we did. You'll not get any sympathy for waiting 'til the last day from him or me. From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Aug 18 10:48:04 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 17:48:04 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <55D34963.5010406@update.uu.se> References: <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D34963.5010406@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150818154804.GC2295@beast.freibergnet.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-18 14:17, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >What makes me wonder is that I've wrote that the vector of the card schould > >be 300...but: > > What makes you say the card should have vector 300? That exactly is the question... > > >$ mcr sysgen > >SYSGEN> SH/CONF > > > > System CSR and Vectors on 18-AUG-2015 14:11:12.81 > > > > Name: PAA Units: 1 Nexus:0 (CI ) > > Name: PAB Units: 1 Nexus:1 (CI ) > > Name: EZA Units: 4 Nexus:2 (NI ) > > Name: PUA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 772150 Vector1: 154 > > Vector2: 000 > > Name: PTA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 774500 Vector1: 260 > > Vector2: 000 > > Name: PTB Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760404 Vector1: 300 > > Vector2: 000 > > Name: TXA Units: 8 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760440 Vector1: 310 > > Vector2: 314 > >SYSGEN> > > > >...floating vector? > > Yes, both PTB and TXA uses a floating vector. PTB also have a higher > "priority" in the configuration scheme, so it comes first. Which means > the vector of TXA becomes 310. > > Note that this is the vectors the OS is assuming the device will be > using. It does not mean that the actual hardware is using those vectors. > That is what the switches are for. But they should match what the OS > expect... Or else things will not work well. > > Johnny ..that's an experience I still have to make (see below). In the meantime I found the Emulex CS08 and connected it to the terminal. The CS08 has a 3 position switch on the breakout panel "N R S" for Normal, Reset and Setup mode. One can connect a terminal and switch to Setup, that's what I've done. I've entered the CSR 160440 (17760440) and the vector 310 like sysgen was showing in sh/config. The Emulex worked, previous vector was 300 where the problem was the same as on the CXY08. Now it was pretty clear what the problem was, switched E28/8 to one (Vector bit 3) on the CXY08, put it in, booted and voila .. its working now. Understand my quandary: I have changed not a single bit on the hardware while cleaning and repairing it and besides that DHU11-DHV11 Switch the board was in the published factory setting! I've got the machine in exactly this configuration and I'm not a guy that toggles switches b'cause they are nice looking. That's why I've assumed that the the hardware is in a working configuration and I've expected that VMS should complain when a device isn't able to pull an interrupt while initializing it ..but... No error in the logs, no error while booting..so what? Ok. Almost 3 days for such a simple problem.. Oh man... :-( Ok, the beast seems to be working now as it should. Now I can try to fix that "not properly dismounted" problem on dia1 ..I've relocated the pagefile.sys to it b'cause of space considerations ..and VMS is to stupid to dismount it properly. Next try ist to get the printer(s) working, one serial and one over TCP/IP Port 9100 (old jet-direct Laserjet). Hopefully I'm learning again to use the installed c-compiler.. Tomorrow my granddaughter is coming with familiy, time to play is over then.. :-) Thanks to all, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 18 11:02:59 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 09:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Aug 2015, Al Kossow wrote: > He destroyed the organizational schema of bitsavers when he "mirrored" it > and had his little band of minions "curate" it for IA. > Bullshit. His mirror has zero effect on your original site or organization. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Aug 18 11:06:38 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 11:06:38 -0500 Subject: RLV11 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D3580E.6080108@pico-systems.com> On 08/18/2015 10:24 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > So I'm apparently back to just trying to get the basic system running. > > I have no idea why this system is so flaky. One day it works great, > the next it doesn't. Maybe it's just cursed! > > I ran a MicroVAX-II at home for 21 years, from 1986 to about 2007. I added stuff to it for some time, had 3 tape drives, several disks, several generations of graphics systems, etc. Some time around 1999 or so, it started to get flaky, and once a month or so it would hang. The fix was to power off, reseat all the cards and it would usually come up for another month or two. Cleaning the card cage connectors by vacuuming first, then wiping with alcohol-soaked towel helped it a bit more. I've finally retired the system and given most of the peripheral boards away. The CPU still works, but the disk I had used for a long time died. So, cleaning the card edge connectors and backplane connectors may help. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 18 11:08:41 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 09:08:41 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55D35889.1010909@bitsavers.org> On 8/18/15 9:02 AM, geneb wrote: > Bullshit. His mirror has zero effect on your original site or organization. > Google disagrees. IA saturates the channel. Jason and IA are deliberately working to redirect all search traffic to IA from the original mirrors by constantly creating useless 'new' content that Google thinks is real. I have watched over time as the volume of Google top search hits have migrated to IA hosted content from the mirrors. From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Aug 18 11:11:54 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 18:11:54 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <20150818154804.GC2295@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D34963.5010406@update.uu.se> <20150818154804.GC2295@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <55D3594A.6010308@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-18 17:48, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2015-08-18 14:17, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>> What makes me wonder is that I've wrote that the vector of the card schould >>> be 300...but: >> >> What makes you say the card should have vector 300? > > That exactly is the question... The thing is. If your CXY08 was configured to use vector 300, you ended up with an interrupt to the PTB driver, which probably just considered it a spurious interrupt resulting in no work. If it had actually been a vector for which no driver was set up, you would probably get an error log entry about an unexpected interrupt, but the TMSCP controllers are probably very allowing for interrupts, as they just indicate that the controller should scan the response ring and pick any new responses. Johnny >> >>> $ mcr sysgen >>> SYSGEN> SH/CONF >>> >>> System CSR and Vectors on 18-AUG-2015 14:11:12.81 >>> >>> Name: PAA Units: 1 Nexus:0 (CI ) >>> Name: PAB Units: 1 Nexus:1 (CI ) >>> Name: EZA Units: 4 Nexus:2 (NI ) >>> Name: PUA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 772150 Vector1: 154 >>> Vector2: 000 >>> Name: PTA Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 774500 Vector1: 260 >>> Vector2: 000 >>> Name: PTB Units: 1 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760404 Vector1: 300 >>> Vector2: 000 >>> Name: TXA Units: 8 Nexus:3 (UBA) CSR: 760440 Vector1: 310 >>> Vector2: 314 >>> SYSGEN> >>> >>> ...floating vector? >> >> Yes, both PTB and TXA uses a floating vector. PTB also have a higher >> "priority" in the configuration scheme, so it comes first. Which means >> the vector of TXA becomes 310. >> >> Note that this is the vectors the OS is assuming the device will be >> using. It does not mean that the actual hardware is using those vectors. >> That is what the switches are for. But they should match what the OS >> expect... Or else things will not work well. >> >> Johnny > > ..that's an experience I still have to make (see below). > > In the meantime I found the Emulex CS08 and connected it to the terminal. > The CS08 has a 3 position switch on the breakout panel "N R S" for Normal, > Reset and Setup mode. One can connect a terminal and switch to Setup, > that's what I've done. I've entered the CSR 160440 (17760440) and the > vector 310 like sysgen was showing in sh/config. The Emulex worked, > previous vector was 300 where the problem was the same as on the CXY08. > Now it was pretty clear what the problem was, switched E28/8 to one (Vector > bit 3) on the CXY08, put it in, booted and voila .. its working now. > > Understand my quandary: I have changed not a single bit on the hardware > while cleaning and repairing it and besides that DHU11-DHV11 Switch the > board was in the published factory setting! > I've got the machine in exactly this configuration and I'm not a guy that > toggles switches b'cause they are nice looking. That's why I've assumed > that the the hardware is in a working configuration and I've expected > that VMS should complain when a device isn't able to pull an interrupt > while initializing it ..but... > No error in the logs, no error while booting..so what? > > Ok. Almost 3 days for such a simple problem.. > > Oh man... :-( > > Ok, the beast seems to be working now as it should. Now I can try to fix > that "not properly dismounted" problem on dia1 ..I've relocated the > pagefile.sys to it b'cause of space considerations ..and VMS is to stupid > to dismount it properly. Next try ist to get the printer(s) working, one > serial and one over TCP/IP Port 9100 (old jet-direct Laserjet). Hopefully > I'm learning again to use the installed c-compiler.. > > Tomorrow my granddaughter is coming with familiy, time to play is over > then.. :-) > > > Thanks to all, > > Holm > From ian at platinum.net Tue Aug 18 11:12:58 2015 From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 09:12:58 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D35889.1010909@bitsavers.org> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <55D35889.1010909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Aug 18, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 8/18/15 9:02 AM, geneb wrote: > >> Bullshit. His mirror has zero effect on your original site or organization. >> > > Google disagrees. > > IA saturates the channel. Jason and IA are deliberately working to redirect all search > traffic to IA from the original mirrors by constantly creating useless 'new' content that > Google thinks is real. > > I have watched over time as the volume of Google top search hits have migrated to IA hosted > content from the mirrors. Ummm. Okay, *assuming* you?re right. You?re upset that the proprietary manuals that you?ve assumed that the original authors have abandoned (but are still technically under copyright, therefore technically illegal to distribute) that you put up on a web site for everyone to benefit from are now being grabbed from another site on the internet? But people are still benefitting from them. But they?re not going to Bitsavers to get them? What?s the problem? Are Bitsavers making a profit from the distribution? Is Bitsavers about preserving human knowledge, or is it about inflating the egos of the archivers? Ian From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 18 11:26:07 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 09:26:07 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <55D35889.1010909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55D35C9F.5060106@bitsavers.org> On 8/18/15 9:12 AM, Ian McLaughlin wrote: > > inflating the egos of the archivers? If you think this is an ego trip for ME, you haven't dealt with Jason Scott much. From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Aug 18 11:30:30 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 18:30:30 +0200 Subject: RLV11 Debugging In-Reply-To: <43D5C9A3-CBC0-4818-A757-59A83CB7FAF8@comcast.net> References: <55D29CE8.3020208@charter.net> <43D5C9A3-CBC0-4818-A757-59A83CB7FAF8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55D35DA6.4070909@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-18 14:46, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Aug 17, 2015, at 10:48 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> >> BR level is the bus request level for an Interrupt. BR 4 is typical. > > On Unibus machines, more of the BR levels were used. The rule of thumb was BR4 for slow devices (like terminals and printers), BR5 for fast devices (disks and tapes), BR6 for real time critical devices (clock, also DECtape because you had to respond to a ?read block number? interrupt fast enough to start reading the block before it passed over the heads). BR7 could in theory be used by devices but I don?t believe it ever was in practice. To put things another way. Think of BR level as "interrupt priority". A bit coarse, since position on the bus further refined interrupt priority within a BR level. (Closer to the CPU -> higher priority than farther from the CPU, for devices on the same BR level.) And then the CPU could choose to block all interrupts at a specific BR level and lower. Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Aug 18 11:33:19 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 18:33:19 +0200 Subject: RLV11 Debugging In-Reply-To: <55D32E8F.5070004@charter.net> References: <55D29CE8.3020208@charter.net> <43D5C9A3-CBC0-4818-A757-59A83CB7FAF8@comcast.net> <55D32E8F.5070004@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D35E4F.6090200@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-18 15:09, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 8/18/2015 7:46 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Aug 17, 2015, at 10:48 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >>> >>> BR level is the bus request level for an Interrupt. BR 4 is typical. >> >> On Unibus machines, more of the BR levels were used. The rule of thumb was BR4 for slow devices (like terminals and printers), BR5 for fast devices (disks and tapes), BR6 for real time critical devices (clock, also DECtape because you had to respond to a ?read block number? interrupt fast enough to start reading the block before it passed over the heads). BR7 could in theory be used by devices but I don?t believe it ever was in practice. >> >> paul >> > > Yes, but this discussion regards an RLV11. It was possible to use several BR levels on a Qbus as well, but in practice it was not done. And I suspect the diagnostics wants to know so that they can set the PSW correctly on interrupts. Just using the default number should be good enough in the common case. Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Aug 18 11:42:29 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 18:42:29 +0200 Subject: Clearpoint DCME/Q4E configuration In-Reply-To: <20150818142015.EB47A18C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150818142015.EB47A18C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55D36075.7090301@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-18 16:20, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > DEC's memory boards never had any jumpers for PMI as such. > > Yes, and if you plug one of their PMI memory boards into a Q/Q backplane, it > will emit magic smoke, too! :-) I don't remember if I've ever tried that, but I can believe that some jumpers would need to be moved around for a Q-Q slot. I have only put the memory in Q-CD slots, and it works fine both as PMI and as normal Q-bus memory. No jumpers moved. > I think that's why this thing has the jumpers - to allow it to be used in a > Q/Q backplane. It would, of course, only be normal (slower) QBUS memory, but > at least one could use it there. > > However, I am unable to verify that hypothesis. (See below.) > > > I looked at the jumpers along the edge in the C/D finger region, and a lot > of them _do_ connect to pins used in the PMI bus. (Confusingly, a number > connect to _other_ pins - I can see I have some detective work in front > of me here!) > > However, that made it likely that the one that had jumpers on all those pins > was configured for PMI use, so I rolled the dice, and tried plugging that > board into a Q22/CD backplane, along with a KDJ11-B, and after a short bout of > 'tired memory' (see my previous post), it did come up as a 4MB PMI memory! > > (Parity, though, not CRC - which might make sense, I guess - it has 148 > memory chips on it, which is a multiple of 37, so 32 + byte parity, plus a > spare chip, I would guess?) By CRC, I guess you mean ECC. And with 37 bits, I think it should have ECC. However, the detection of ECC depends on the CSR address set correctly. But I could be wrong as well. > However, when I plugged the other one in - nada. No response at all; the boot > PROM bitched about 'no memory at 0'. So I'm not sure _what_ that > configuration is for. Would sound like it was configured for a non-zero start address maybe? But if you tried with the switches/jumpers the same as on the board working then it sounds like it would just be broken. > So then I took a flier (although the cards use the identical PCB, they do > have a few minor differences in chip rev in a couple of the programmable > chips), and put the jumper config from the working PMI card onto the other > card, and it did 'sort of' come up as a PMI card. > > The boot PROM was complaining about "Memory CSR Error" (I'll have to > investigate that further), _but_ the memory was shown (by the boot PROM 'map' > command) as PMI, and my own memory-test program showed it was all working OK. As I've mentioned several times. The cards themself work as PMI memory or normal Qbus memory depending on their location with relation to the CPU. Memory before CPU -> PMI memory. Memory after CPU -> normal Qbus memory. And then the cards also have a CSR register or two, which is used for various things. And they are expected to be at specific addresses. I can't recall off my head what the addresses are, but that can be looked up. If you have a memory starting at address 0, there should be a CSR at a specific address as well, that access the card. The second memory card is supposed to be configured to start where the first one ends in memory space, and use the second CSR address, and so on... Johnny From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 18 08:16:26 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:16:26 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800 spindle bearings (Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem) In-Reply-To: References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> <55CF8A2D.1030007@charter.net> <55CF9D55.2070200@charter.net> <55CFF6F7.3000909@charter.net> <55D250A4.1090405@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D3302A.6020708@charter.net> On 8/17/2015 11:14 PM, tony duell wrote: >> >> Well, in the process of repairing the Altos power supply I managed to >> break the center lead off of the TIP31A that feeds the 2N3055 series >> pass transistor. This time, I need to order parts. > > Do you? The centre lead (collector) is connected to the tab on that transistor. So a > solder tag under the mounting screw (against the tab, not on top of an insulating bush > linked to the appropriate pad on the PCB should fix it. > Yeah, but the TIP31A part is cheap, and is free air mounted on its leads - it isn't screwed down. I'd rather do the repair nicely. Anyway, it gave me an excuse to order a 750 ohm resistor so that replacement matches, instead of the 2 x 1.5K parallel pair I had put in. JRU From scaron at umich.edu Tue Aug 18 08:36:58 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 09:36:58 -0400 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: <55D32F44.2020306@charter.net> References: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <041f01d0d92f$09f006c0$1dd01440$@gmail.com> <55D29E7C.5060402@charter.net> <55D32F44.2020306@charter.net> Message-ID: I used to watch Dave but his ego got to be a bit much for me ... I now prefer "mikesslectricstuff" and "w2aew" on YT when I'm looking for some inspiration in the form of a video. Best, Sean On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:12 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 8/17/2015 10:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > @ Jay, > > > > Ha, yeah.. I've seen a number of his vids.. Don't mean to offend, but he > > comes off a bit squirrely (hyper) for me. > > > > Probably has to or viewers would fall asleep. Jim Cramer on CNBC > operates the same way. > > > Yet another freaking Aussie nutcase, lol - but he does seem to get some > > good info across, in between the audible glamour. > > > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 9:54 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > > >> You might check EEVBLOG on Youtube. The guy's a blast and covers what > >> you are asking about. He indicates 8 bits is really not to his liking > >> at all, to go for more. He also goes over the sampling rate of some of > >> the USB DSO's out there. > >> > >> EEVBlog #13: > >> > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTG6jWL0ZqA > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev121xAt_k4 > >> > >> JRJ > >> > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Tue Aug 18 10:16:11 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 11:16:11 -0400 Subject: Analog to Digital Converter In-Reply-To: References: <55CF6642.3060709@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55D34C3B.8000503@comcast.net> On 8/15/2015 12:40 PM, tony duell wrote: >> I have a number of laboratory instruments that are from the 1990 time >> frame. They produce digital data that is the digitized signal from a >> detector, the data can be from 512 to 65K samples long. The ADC used in >> these instruments is a 16bit 100ksample/sec design. The ADC is in a 3 >> by 4 inch metal box with a row of pins on each long edge. > [...] > >> What is inside the box? Is it a hybrid circuit? > I came across somewhat similar looking ADC and DAC modules in an I2S image > display system. These were flat metal cans with pins on the bottom, going into > individual sockets on the PCB. > > In that case the can could be opened up quite easily (I think just a couple of points > to unsolder. Inside was a PCB _stuffed_ with components, including several possibly > custom metal-can ICs (in the case of the ADC I susect fast analogue comparators). > > Have you tried to open your module? It may not be potted. > > -tony I got a close enough look to get some markings deciphered. It is an Analog Solutions ZAD 2716-1 model. A picture of it can be found here: http://www.stronic.fr/photos/ANA1001.jpg The metal box is a shield and is soldered to the circuit card, I think that opening it up would be sort of a one way trip. I found a discussion of it at: http://www.lavryengineering.com/lavry_forum/viewtopic.php?t=598 The fellow who designed it actually has some kind of audio forum! Doug From scaron at umich.edu Tue Aug 18 11:09:23 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:09:23 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: I agree, you really just have to try and run a test through with a representative page from the document with fine detail and see how it comes out ... I have found that even fairly fine detail reproduces okay with a 300 DPI scan ... there's no need in scanning with extraneous bit depth and then you start to get people complaining about file sizes :O Best, Sean On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > I have many schematics scanned in 300dpi and they are great even for a3 > printing. Take a lookk at "esquematico de informatica cce" (google it) as > an example... > Em 18/08/2015 10:36, "Tothwolf" escreveu: > > > On Tue, 18 Aug 2015, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > > > I certainly feel bitsavers is a good model, and although I'm physically > >> not too far away from the stuff, I'm not sure I have much to offer other > >> than disk space on a server for staging. > >> > >> http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4695 > >> > >> (previous link: http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 ) > >> > > > > The problem I've found with scans is that even at 600 dpi you lose detail > > necessary to make use of a lot of the material in these types of manuals > > (especially parts designations and values on schematics). It is amazing > > just how high the print quality is for many of these 1950s/60s/70s > manuals. > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Aug 18 12:05:17 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:05:17 -0500 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <20150818154804.GC2295@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D34963.5010406@update.uu.se> <20150818154804.GC2295@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <55D365CD.8040505@pico-systems.com> On 08/18/2015 10:48 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Understand my quandary: I have changed not a single bit on > the hardware while cleaning and repairing it and besides > that DHU11-DHV11 Switch the board was in the published > factory setting! DEC went to this floating address/vector scheme back in the PDP-11 days, when they started building large systems like the 11/70 and using PDP-11's as the console for DECsystem 20's. They'd put a huge number of I/O boards in such systems. A choice of 3 pre-assigned CSR addresses and interrupt vectors just would not cut it in such systems. They had a utility you could run (at least on VAX) where you input the number of instances of each device, and it would print out a table of all the CSR and vectors to set them to. So, the situation is that changing the number of one kind of board could alter the addresses of many OTHER boards! Most likely, some board was added or removed from the system before you got it, and it caused the vector to now be wrong. In some cases, you had to force a device to be at a non-standard address, possibly because a 3rd party device could not be configured at the address the DEC enumeration scheme wanted to put it at. This was pretty easy to do in later VMS systems. Unfortunately, this type of misconfiguration is fairly hard to detect with software. Later devices (MSCP) had an autoconfiguration scheme where the OS would assign the CSR and vector at boot time. Jon From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 18 12:26:53 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:26:53 -0500 Subject: RLV11 Debugging In-Reply-To: <55D35E4F.6090200@update.uu.se> References: <55D29CE8.3020208@charter.net> <43D5C9A3-CBC0-4818-A757-59A83CB7FAF8@comcast.net> <55D32E8F.5070004@charter.net> <55D35E4F.6090200@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55D36ADD.1080004@charter.net> On 8/18/2015 11:33 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-18 15:09, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> On 8/18/2015 7:46 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>>> On Aug 17, 2015, at 10:48 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >>>> >>>> BR level is the bus request level for an Interrupt. BR 4 is typical. >>> >>> On Unibus machines, more of the BR levels were used. The rule of >>> thumb was BR4 for slow devices (like terminals and printers), BR5 for >>> fast devices (disks and tapes), BR6 for real time critical devices >>> (clock, also DECtape because you had to respond to a ?read block >>> number? interrupt fast enough to start reading the block before it >>> passed over the heads). BR7 could in theory be used by devices but I >>> don?t believe it ever was in practice. >>> >>> paul >>> >> >> Yes, but this discussion regards an RLV11. > > It was possible to use several BR levels on a Qbus as well, but in > practice it was not done. > > And I suspect the diagnostics wants to know so that they can set the PSW > correctly on interrupts. Just using the default number should be good > enough in the common case. > > Johnny Yes, but from what I could tell from its manual, the RLV11 could ONLY use BR4 - had no jumpers to do anything else - it was designed in the days of the LSI bus, the QBus precursor, which only had the one signal. JRJ From jason at textfiles.com Tue Aug 18 12:56:30 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:56:30 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D35889.1010909@bitsavers.org> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <55D35889.1010909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Are we going to do this here? I guess we're going to do this here. So, the way that I found out there was any issue at all happening between Al and myself was that a particular high spectrum colleague of mine happened to buffer a chat box in which Al insulted me. To say that I was floored and shocked and sad wouldn't begin to explain it. Al is a hero of mine, a true hero, someone who impresses me with both the breadth and focus of the work he has done over the years. Well I knew that this colleague of mine had crossed the line in bringing what had been thought of as an ethereal conversation to my attention, I definitely couldn't let it drop. I wrote to Al asking what the source of his dislike or distrust of me was, and what I could possibly do to make amends or at least reach a neutrality. Perhaps not surprisingly, he has never written back. Subsequently, it has apparently taken this mailing list to read and understand what exactly the scope of the issue is. If the core problem is that the structure of bitsavers is not being honored, it was a simple matter of a couple of nights and a few hundred keystrokes to bring it in order. As it is, a script is what brings new items on to the archive. I did some basic separating by vendor, but again, it would be trivial to do it according to whatever directory structure would be wanted. It would also be trivial to do backlinks in every item, if you are concerned about falling back in Google or other search engines. This sort of problem is a speed bump in the road to progress. The fact that I have to hear about it in detail, couched in insults, on this mailing list, perhaps strikes to the core of the problem. I can only imagine how many people would be disappointed to hear that collaboration between the Computer History Museum the Internet Archive is being held up by a misunderstanding about the mirroring of files between two locations. Al, for all my flaws of personality which I am more than happy to own, you have gained a reputation of being a brilliant man with skills and passion and a propensity to hold feuds that never end. Why do you do this? Why waste that energy, quietly seething over things that could be fixed? I'm not asking to be your friend, or someone you even respect. But at the least we can work together towards the many many common goals we share. My mailbox, phone and arms are always open, Al. Please help me to make this disagreement right, and help me to work to achieve the same goals as you are, even if my methods are unorthodox or strange. On Aug 18, 2015 12:09 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > On 8/18/15 9:02 AM, geneb wrote: > > Bullshit. His mirror has zero effect on your original site or >> organization. >> >> > Google disagrees. > > IA saturates the channel. Jason and IA are deliberately working to > redirect all search > traffic to IA from the original mirrors by constantly creating useless > 'new' content that > Google thinks is real. > > I have watched over time as the volume of Google top search hits have > migrated to IA hosted > content from the mirrors. > > > > > > From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Aug 18 13:00:40 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 20:00:40 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <55D365CD.8040505@pico-systems.com> References: <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D34963.5010406@update.uu.se> <20150818154804.GC2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D365CD.8040505@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55D372C8.6010100@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-18 19:05, Jon Elson wrote: > On 08/18/2015 10:48 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Understand my quandary: I have changed not a single bit on the >> hardware while cleaning and repairing it and besides that DHU11-DHV11 >> Switch the board was in the published factory setting! > DEC went to this floating address/vector scheme back in the PDP-11 days, > when they started building large systems like the 11/70 and using > PDP-11's as the console for DECsystem 20's. They'd put a huge number of > I/O boards in such systems. A choice of 3 pre-assigned CSR addresses > and interrupt vectors just would not cut it in such systems. > They had a utility you could run (at least on VAX) where you input the > number of instances of each device, and it would print out a table of > all the CSR and vectors to set them to. The floating address space was pretty much there from the start for the Unibus, even before you had "large" systems. For most controllers, only the first one has a fixed address, and all others were assigned from the floating space. Makes sense, as it was just too costly to statically assign space in the I/O page for all possibly configurations you could imagine. > So, the situation is that changing the number of one kind of board could > alter the addresses of many OTHER boards! Indeed. > Most likely, some board was added or removed from the system before you > got it, and it caused the vector to now be wrong. The vector is usually not the first victim. The CSR address is, which cause all access to the controller to fail. But the vector often also move, causing the more obscure errors. However, most DEC OSes actually autodetected the vetor, and did not care about the actual floating assignment rules for the vectors. The thing is, all you need is to trigger an interrupt on the device, and then notice at what vector it came in, and then you go with that. This only fails when several devices happen to use the same vector. > In some cases, you had to force a device to be at a non-standard > address, possibly because a 3rd party device could not be configured at > the address the DEC enumeration scheme wanted to put it at. This was > pretty easy to do in later VMS systems. Very easy to do in RSX-11M-PLUS as well. A simple one line command, which can be done on the running system. > Unfortunately, this type of misconfiguration is fairly hard to detect > with software. Later devices (MSCP) had an autoconfiguration scheme > where the OS would assign the CSR and vector at boot time. Well, half correct anyway. The CSR is never autoassigned. It always is configured by switches or jumpers on the board. Some of the more modern controllers, like MSCP controllers, setup the vector through software. CSR misconfigurations are pretty much impossible to fix, but most of the time easy to detect. If nothing is responding on the CSR address, the controller simple is not there. Vector misonfigurations can either be handled fine by the OS, or cause spurious interrupts for another driver. A bit harder to detect sometimes. Depends on the driver. Some actually log unexpected interrupts. Johnny From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Aug 18 13:00:57 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 11:00:57 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D35889.1010909@bitsavers.org> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <55D35889.1010909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Aug 18, 2015, at 09:08 , Al Kossow wrote: > Jason and IA are deliberately working to redirect all search > traffic to IA from the original mirrors by constantly creating useless 'new' content that > Google thinks is real. I'm rather skeptical of that claim. > I have watched over time as the volume of Google top search hits have migrated to IA hosted > content from the mirrors. So what? The information is still available at Bitsavers, and now it's also available on additional sites, too. Who cares what comes up higher on a third party's search engine? Search engine optimization is important to people trying to maximize traffic to their site because they make money off of it, but it's not relevant to a nonprofit preservation effort. And mirroring of the content is important from a fault tolerance standpoint. What happens to the contents of Bitsavers if you get hit by a meteor and thus no longer maintain it? And what of all of the things that Jason archives and makes publicly, freely available that aren't on Bitsavers and are unlikely to end up there because they're outside your areas of interest? There are things for which my site comes up at or near the top of searches. And if something else comes along that displaces it, I'm unlikely to care. My site will still be there as long as I am willing and able to maintain it. I think that Bitsavers and IA are both great things. I use both, love both, and consider both of them to be great resources, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. I don't see any grounds for hostility between supporters of either of them. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Aug 18 14:29:36 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 15:29:36 -0400 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <55D372C8.6010100@update.uu.se> References: <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D34963.5010406@update.uu.se> <20150818154804.GC2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D365CD.8040505@pico-systems.com> <55D372C8.6010100@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <9DA684B3-28AD-455D-8A11-853A391609A1@comcast.net> > On Aug 18, 2015, at 2:00 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-08-18 19:05, Jon Elson wrote: > ... >> Most likely, some board was added or removed from the system before you >> got it, and it caused the vector to now be wrong. > > The vector is usually not the first victim. The CSR address is, which cause all access to the controller to fail. But the vector often also move, causing the more obscure errors. However, most DEC OSes actually autodetected the vetor, and did not care about the actual floating assignment rules for the vectors. > The thing is, all you need is to trigger an interrupt on the device, and then notice at what vector it came in, and then you go with that. This only fails when several devices happen to use the same vector. Typically that would be detected as a configuration error ? two devices whose autodetected vector matches. One of the offending devices (the one seen later, presumably) would end up disabled. > >> In some cases, you had to force a device to be at a non-standard >> address, possibly because a 3rd party device could not be configured at >> the address the DEC enumeration scheme wanted to put it at. This was >> pretty easy to do in later VMS systems. > > Very easy to do in RSX-11M-PLUS as well. A simple one line command, which can be done on the running system. And RSTS, starting with V5B. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Aug 18 14:48:51 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:48:51 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <9DA684B3-28AD-455D-8A11-853A391609A1@comcast.net> References: <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D34963.5010406@update.uu.se> <20150818154804.GC2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D365CD.8040505@pico-systems.com> <55D372C8.6010100@update.uu.se> <9DA684B3-28AD-455D-8A11-853A391609A1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55D38C23.1040004@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-18 21:29, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Aug 18, 2015, at 2:00 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> On 2015-08-18 19:05, Jon Elson wrote: >> ... >>> Most likely, some board was added or removed from the system before you >>> got it, and it caused the vector to now be wrong. >> >> The vector is usually not the first victim. The CSR address is, which cause all access to the controller to fail. But the vector often also move, causing the more obscure errors. However, most DEC OSes actually autodetected the vetor, and did not care about the actual floating assignment rules for the vectors. >> The thing is, all you need is to trigger an interrupt on the device, and then notice at what vector it came in, and then you go with that. This only fails when several devices happen to use the same vector. > > Typically that would be detected as a configuration error ? two devices whose autodetected vector matches. One of the offending devices (the one seen later, presumably) would end up disabled. Ideally yes. However, at least RSX I think fails on that. As device vectors are detected. they are installed. So the vector detection code does not get called for the second device using the same vector, but instead you get a spurious interrupt in the autoconfiguration. But that is just some vague recollection, and I could be wrong. In normal operations, RSX does not probe, but relies on what was discovered during sysgen. >>> In some cases, you had to force a device to be at a non-standard >>> address, possibly because a 3rd party device could not be configured at >>> the address the DEC enumeration scheme wanted to put it at. This was >>> pretty easy to do in later VMS systems. >> >> Very easy to do in RSX-11M-PLUS as well. A simple one line command, which can be done on the running system. > > And RSTS, starting with V5B. Cool. I had no idea. Plain RSX-11M cannot. The CSR and vector is set at sysgen, and you can (of course) patch the memory, but there is no command to reconfigure the running system. -11M-PLUS got all that as a part of the support for the 11/74, where you were expected to be able to move devices around in the running system. Hot-pluggable, in a way. And it also applies to CPUs, memory and buses... It's a rather complex subsystem, but extremely nice. Johnny From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Aug 18 14:55:23 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 15:55:23 -0400 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <55D38C23.1040004@update.uu.se> References: <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D34963.5010406@update.uu.se> <20150818154804.GC2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D365CD.8040505@pico-systems.com> <55D372C8.6010100@update.uu.se> <9DA684B3-28AD-455D-8A11-853A391609A1@comcast.net> <55D38C23.1040004@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <9C041923-6B2A-407F-A674-BCE7FF6F5B0F@comcast.net> > On Aug 18, 2015, at 3:48 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-08-18 21:29, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Aug 18, 2015, at 2:00 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >>> On 2015-08-18 19:05, Jon Elson wrote: >>> ... >>>> Most likely, some board was added or removed from the system before you >>>> got it, and it caused the vector to now be wrong. >>> >>> The vector is usually not the first victim. The CSR address is, which cause all access to the controller to fail. But the vector often also move, causing the more obscure errors. However, most DEC OSes actually autodetected the vetor, and did not care about the actual floating assignment rules for the vectors. >>> The thing is, all you need is to trigger an interrupt on the device, and then notice at what vector it came in, and then you go with that. This only fails when several devices happen to use the same vector. >> >> Typically that would be detected as a configuration error ? two devices whose autodetected vector matches. One of the offending devices (the one seen later, presumably) would end up disabled. > > Ideally yes. However, at least RSX I think fails on that. As device vectors are detected. they are installed. So the vector detection code does not get called for the second device using the same vector, but instead you get a spurious interrupt in the autoconfiguration. Ok. RSTS does indeed check for duplicate vectors. It also checks for devices interrupting at too high a priority. It?s pretty neat code. Back in 1977 or so when that came out, it may have been one of the first autoconfig systems, at least in DEC. It could probe almost all devices supported by RSTS (and some not supported); the exceptions being card readers and the DT07 bus switch. But it would do hairy things like the KMC-11 and DMC-11, for example. Also, for disks it would discover all units and their types. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Aug 18 15:20:56 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 16:20:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue Message-ID: <20150818202056.1659518C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Sean Caron > I have found that even fairly fine detail reproduces okay with a 300 > DPI scan ... there's no need in scanning with extraneous bit depth and > then you start to get people complaining about file sizes I have found that one can generally have one's cake, and eat it too: if I scan at 600dpi in black and white, and then use "CCITT Group 4" compression, the resulting images (of prints) are ~200KB per page. Is that small enough? :-) Noel From bqt at softjar.se Tue Aug 18 15:23:08 2015 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 22:23:08 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <9C041923-6B2A-407F-A674-BCE7FF6F5B0F@comcast.net> References: <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D34963.5010406@update.uu.se> <20150818154804.GC2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D365CD.8040505@pico-systems.com> <55D372C8.6010100@update.uu.se> <9DA684B3-28AD-455D-8A11-853A391609A1@comcast.net> <55D38C23.1040004@update.uu.se> <9C041923-6B2A-407F-A674-BCE7FF6F5B0F@comcast.net> Message-ID: Paul Koning skrev: (18 augusti 2015 21:55:23 CEST) > >> On Aug 18, 2015, at 3:48 PM, Johnny Billquist >wrote: >> >> On 2015-08-18 21:29, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>>> On Aug 18, 2015, at 2:00 PM, Johnny Billquist >wrote: >>>> >>>> On 2015-08-18 19:05, Jon Elson wrote: >>>> ... >>>>> Most likely, some board was added or removed from the system >before you >>>>> got it, and it caused the vector to now be wrong. >>>> >>>> The vector is usually not the first victim. The CSR address is, >which cause all access to the controller to fail. But the vector often >also move, causing the more obscure errors. However, most DEC OSes >actually autodetected the vetor, and did not care about the actual >floating assignment rules for the vectors. >>>> The thing is, all you need is to trigger an interrupt on the >device, and then notice at what vector it came in, and then you go with >that. This only fails when several devices happen to use the same >vector. >>> >>> Typically that would be detected as a configuration error ? two >devices whose autodetected vector matches. One of the offending >devices (the one seen later, presumably) would end up disabled. >> >> Ideally yes. However, at least RSX I think fails on that. As device >vectors are detected. they are installed. So the vector detection code >does not get called for the second device using the same vector, but >instead you get a spurious interrupt in the autoconfiguration. > >Ok. RSTS does indeed check for duplicate vectors. It also checks for >devices interrupting at too high a priority. > >It?s pretty neat code. Back in 1977 or so when that came out, it may >have been one of the first autoconfig systems, at least in DEC. It >could probe almost all devices supported by RSTS (and some not >supported); the exceptions being card readers and the DT07 bus switch. >But it would do hairy things like the KMC-11 and DMC-11, for example. > >Also, for disks it would discover all units and their types. > > paul Rsx do most, if not all of that in the sysgen autoconfig phase, but not during normal boot. At boot, device csr's are probed for simple read access. If nothing responds, the device is put offline, but that's it. Detecting disk types is also a bit dynamic, but with some restrictions. Johnny -- Skickat fr?n min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Urs?kta min f?ordighet. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Aug 18 15:36:11 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 16:36:11 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <20150818202056.1659518C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150818202056.1659518C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <16DB4F97-DFCC-47BE-8788-EEAAC70CAE71@comcast.net> > On Aug 18, 2015, at 4:20 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Sean Caron > >> I have found that even fairly fine detail reproduces okay with a 300 >> DPI scan ... there's no need in scanning with extraneous bit depth and >> then you start to get people complaining about file sizes > > I have found that one can generally have one's cake, and eat it too: > if I scan at 600dpi in black and white, and then use "CCITT Group 4" > compression, the resulting images (of prints) are ~200KB per page. > Is that small enough? :-) If you can, avoid black/white scans. The reason is that scanners are often noisy in that mode, so you end up with very large images where the ?white? areas have lots of individual black pixels on them. Copiers used in scan mode are particularly likely to do this. Such documents are also surprisingly hard to read, look messy when printed, and utterly fail OCR. Grayscale works much better in all respects. You can generate clean bitonal scans, but that requires careful post-processing, in particular careful (and often page-dependent) selection of the threshold value. paul From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Aug 18 15:47:26 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 16:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <16DB4F97-DFCC-47BE-8788-EEAAC70CAE71@comcast.net> References: <20150818202056.1659518C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <16DB4F97-DFCC-47BE-8788-EEAAC70CAE71@comcast.net> Message-ID: <201508182047.QAA00241@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I have found that one can generally have one's cake, and eat it too: >> [...600dpi B&W...Group 4 compression...] > If you can, avoid black/white scans. The reason is that scanners are often $ Personally, what I would do is scan 300dpi greyscale (my scanner does 600 in only one dimension), then, for people who think the result is too big, postprocess it down - but always keep the original. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tingox at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 15:51:21 2015 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 22:51:21 +0200 Subject: More Manuals Plus Rescue In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D2C0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D2C0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4711 > > Choice quote: > > "I am writing this from the car, sitting in the passenger seat with my shoes off. I have been standing for 12 hours. I've been giving introductions and tours and explanations and theories and everything else that comes when you put a bunch of strangers together with a single-minded purpose. They have been too good. Way better than anybody deserves in the way of volunteers. They have been helpful, kind, inquisitive, dedicated. They have come from miles around. Sometime around 11 a.m., it became very obvious that the 252 banker boxes we have bought or a laughable underestimation. We were going to need more. We are going to need much more, and we were going to need it now. I made a call to the Uline Company, and asked for the impossible: I wanted 8 pallets of boxes, delivered within the day. And within four hours, they arrived. To deliver 1052 banker boxes within 4 hours, combined with the cost of the boxes themselves, was $4000." It really makes me wish I could be there and help out with the remaining work. Holy crap! and best of luck! -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen, Oslo, Norway From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Aug 18 16:02:04 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 17:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue Message-ID: <20150818210204.D0E5C18C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > If you can, avoid black/white scans. The reason is that scanners are > often noisy in that mode ... Copiers used in scan mode are particularly > likely to do this. Such documents are also surprisingly hard to read, > look messy when printed, and utterly fail OCR. I was talking about scanning prints (which is how this originally came up, someone said 300 dpi doesn't catch the very fine printing one can find on them - which is true, I've had issues in this regard too). I'm using a professional-grade A3-size scanner (found on eBay for the princely sum of $100 - it's an older model, with a SCSI interface) - for scanning fold-out prints, the typical A4/8-1/2x11 scanner won't eat them whole. And of course OCR is a non-concept for prints. For manuals (text), on the other hand, 300 dpi is of course fine. Noel From evan at snarc.net Tue Aug 18 16:27:41 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 17:27:41 -0400 Subject: More Manuals Plus Rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D2C0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <55D3A34D.6020008@snarc.net> >> Choice quote: >> >> "I am writing this from the car, sitting in the passenger seat with my shoes off. I have been standing for 12 hours. I've been giving introductions and tours and explanations and theories and everything else that comes when you put a bunch of strangers together with a single-minded purpose. They have been too good. Way better than anybody deserves in the way of volunteers. They have been helpful, kind, inquisitive, dedicated. They have come from miles around. Sometime around 11 a.m., it became very obvious that the 252 banker boxes we have bought or a laughable underestimation. We were going to need more. We are going to need much more, and we were going to need it now. I made a call to the Uline Company, and asked for the impossible: I wanted 8 pallets of boxes, delivered within the day. And within four hours, they arrived. To deliver 1052 banker boxes within 4 hours, combined with the cost of the boxes themselves, was $4000." > It really makes me wish I could be there and help out with the remaining work. > Holy crap! and best of luck! I shared Jason's original announcement on the MARCH list. We have members in Baltimore, DC, Pennsylvania, and Delaware who could help. A few were able to get there and help. In addition, we offered to physically store -- for free -- any of the paper manuals that are computer/electronics-related (as opposed to, say, the manual for a 1962 milling machine). I am waiting to hear back from Jason about whether he needs that assistance. (We won't take any offense is he declines; after all, our storage facility is not yet climate controlled.) From rob at bitscience.ca Tue Aug 18 17:50:23 2015 From: rob at bitscience.ca (Robert Ferguson) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 18:50:23 -0400 Subject: DEC Fiche EP-M8436-MA-A Message-ID: <3A3B96B5-5525-4F9F-B638-066A55A63774@bitscience.ca> Hi Everyone, I?m looking for a scan or a printout of the contents of DEC fiche EP-M8436-MA-A. It?s referenced at the top of page 163 of http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/fiche_200dpi/0254_index_85-07.pdf, and allegedly contains the details for M8436, M8437,M8439, and M8440 boards -- all of which were parts for the Decmate series of machines. If anyone has access to this (even if you have no way to read it), or has a pointer to where I might find it, I?d very much appreciate if you?d drop me a line. Thanks very much, Rob Ferguson From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 18 18:01:59 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 16:01:59 -0700 Subject: Analog to Digital Converter In-Reply-To: <55D34C3B.8000503@comcast.net> References: <55CF6642.3060709@comcast.net>, , <55D34C3B.8000503@comcast.net> Message-ID: Reading the note made me think of something else. If it is an SAR, and you read to soon, the LSBs of the incomplete conversion will always be the same. All ones or all zeros. If it is a Sigma-Delta, and the input has noise on it that is above the same rate, the LSB's will take on a random, all ones or all zeros on different reading. This is an indication that the input has not been properly filtered or you have exceeded the slew rate, even if you are within the frequency band width. Most audio A/Ds assume a de-emphesis so that the higher frequencies are reduced in slew rate. Any noise above 1/2 the sample rate will be reflected into the values. Anything above the sample rate will be as I described, a mix of all 1's or all 0's on each sample. Dwight From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 19:46:48 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 19:46:48 -0500 Subject: test equipment / Re: Z80 / Z84C Swap (Doh!) In-Reply-To: References: <20150817201148.368A318C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <041f01d0d92f$09f006c0$1dd01440$@gmail.com> <55D29E7C.5060402@charter.net> <55D32F44.2020306@charter.net> Message-ID: Now totally OT, but in the broader world of YouTube info / tutorial vids, I really like Eric the Car Guy. Good info, solid technical practice and not a whole lot of obnoxious, overtly egotistical or other distracting behavior. Great channel for the DIY vehicle mechanic. On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 8:36 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > I used to watch Dave but his ego got to be a bit much for me ... I now > prefer "mikesslectricstuff" and "w2aew" on YT when I'm looking for some > inspiration in the form of a video. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:12 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > > On 8/17/2015 10:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > > @ Jay, > > > > > > Ha, yeah.. I've seen a number of his vids.. Don't mean to offend, but > he > > > comes off a bit squirrely (hyper) for me. > > > > > > > Probably has to or viewers would fall asleep. Jim Cramer on CNBC > > operates the same way. > > > > > Yet another freaking Aussie nutcase, lol - but he does seem to get some > > > good info across, in between the audible glamour. > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 9:54 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > > > > >> You might check EEVBLOG on Youtube. The guy's a blast and covers what > > >> you are asking about. He indicates 8 bits is really not to his liking > > >> at all, to go for more. He also goes over the sampling rate of some > of > > >> the USB DSO's out there. > > >> > > >> EEVBlog #13: > > >> > > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTG6jWL0ZqA > > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev121xAt_k4 > > >> > > >> JRJ > > >> > > > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 18 20:18:24 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:18:24 -0400 Subject: More Manuals Plus Rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D2C0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <55D3D960.3010202@sbcglobal.net> On 08/18/2015 04:51 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4711 >> >> Choice quote: >> >> "I am writing this from the car, sitting in the passenger seat with my shoes off. I have been standing for 12 hours. I've been giving introductions and tours and explanations and theories and everything else that comes when you put a bunch of strangers together with a single-minded purpose. They have been too good. Way better than anybody deserves in the way of volunteers. They have been helpful, kind, inquisitive, dedicated. They have come from miles around. Sometime around 11 a.m., it became very obvious that the 252 banker boxes we have bought or a laughable underestimation. We were going to need more. We are going to need much more, and we were going to need it now. I made a call to the Uline Company, and asked for the impossible: I wanted 8 pallets of boxes, delivered within the day. And within four hours, they arrived. To deliver 1052 banker boxes within 4 hours, combined with the cost of the boxes themselves, was $4000." > > It really makes me wish I could be there and help out with the remaining work. > Holy crap! and best of luck! > Yeah, if I was any close, I would have definitely pulled all-nighters to help... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Aug 18 20:35:45 2015 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 01:35:45 +0000 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D93C@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > IA saturates the channel. Jason and IA are deliberately working to redirect all search > traffic to IA from the original mirrors by constantly creating useless 'new' content that > Google thinks is real. > > I have watched over time as the volume of Google top search hits have migrated to IA hosted > content from the mirrors. I have occasionally stumbled into the bitsavers stuff on IA and was just confused and perplexed about what the IA guys are trying to do. Bitsavers has a perfectly obvious and navigable layout; IA makes no sense at all. (Of course I'm a little biased!!!) Tim N3QE From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Aug 18 20:58:14 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 18:58:14 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D93C@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D93C@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <55D3E2B6.60708@shiresoft.com> On 8/18/15 6:35 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> IA saturates the channel. Jason and IA are deliberately working to redirect all search >> traffic to IA from the original mirrors by constantly creating useless 'new' content that >> Google thinks is real. >> >> I have watched over time as the volume of Google top search hits have migrated to IA hosted >> content from the mirrors. > I have occasionally stumbled into the bitsavers stuff on IA and was just confused and perplexed about what the IA guys are trying to do. Bitsavers has a perfectly obvious and navigable layout; IA makes no sense at all. > > I just went to IA to see what all of the fuss was about. I can sum up what I saw in one word. Yech! I agree with Tim, what IA is doing makes no sense. About the only thing that I can figure out is that they decided to make it "searchable" (but I didn't spend much time trying to figure out how "deep" the search could go). The problem that I have with a lot of the whole "searchable" notion, is that in many ways the information is not longer "navigable". Sure with a search, I can get a lot of "hits" but the information is not presented in any meaningful way (other than a simple linear list) and rather than presenting some additional navigational structure, it requires re-casting the search to (hopefully) get to a list that is reasonable to search through which is probably more work (and error prone). TTFN - Guy From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 18 21:25:08 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:25:08 -0500 Subject: DEC Fiche EP-M8436-MA-A In-Reply-To: <3A3B96B5-5525-4F9F-B638-066A55A63774@bitscience.ca> References: <3A3B96B5-5525-4F9F-B638-066A55A63774@bitscience.ca> Message-ID: <55D3E904.1080302@charter.net> MA == Module Assembly. These fiche have BLUE tops. I have one that is slightly newer: EP-M8436-MA-B . In my case, it is part of the VTERM Fiche set. (Mine is VTERM-000171). M8436 - VT278 CPU, Revs A, C M8437 - COMM Adapter, Revs A, C and D M8439 - RL01/RL01 Disk Controller, Revs A, B and C M8440 - MASSBUS Controller, Rev F, and an FCO log entry BUT, so far I haven't been able to scan it, at 1200 DPI. If anyone has advice on scanning fiche, I'd love to hear it. I *can* take a digital picture of it. It is readable, but because of how the fiche reader is lit (a single bulb), it is a bit overexposed in the center, and pretty dark at the corners. To get the best quality would probably take 4 of 5 pictures per page - quite a lot. Or, of you have a specific question I can take just a page or two. Maybe someone else can help too. If not, if JRJ On 8/18/2015 5:50 PM, Robert Ferguson wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I?m looking for a scan or a printout of the contents of DEC fiche EP-M8436-MA-A. > > It?s referenced at the top of page 163 of http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/fiche_200dpi/0254_index_85-07.pdf, and allegedly contains the details for M8436, M8437,M8439, and M8440 boards -- all of which were parts for the Decmate series of machines. > > If anyone has access to this (even if you have no way to read it), or has a pointer to where I might find it, I?d very much appreciate if you?d drop me a line. > > Thanks very much, > Rob Ferguson > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Aug 18 21:27:27 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:27:27 -0500 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <55D372C8.6010100@update.uu.se> References: <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D34963.5010406@update.uu.se> <20150818154804.GC2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D365CD.8040505@pico-systems.com> <55D372C8.6010100@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55D3E98F.9080208@pico-systems.com> On 08/18/2015 01:00 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > The floating address space was pretty much there from the > start for the Unibus, even before you had "large" systems. > For most controllers, only the first one has a fixed > address, and all others were assigned from the floating > space. Makes sense, as it was just too costly to > statically assign space in the I/O page for all possibly > configurations you could imagine. The CAPABILITY to do it was always there, that is quite true. But, most of the OLD PDP-11 devices had a VERY limited selection of addresses. Now, some DID have something like 6 address bits settable in a jumper or wire-wrap field, but I know a number of devices had just a couple DIP switches that limited you to 4 or 8 possible addresses. I know on some old stuff I actually cut traces and re-patched the address select bits to make them run at non-standard addresses. My PDP-11 experience started in 1975, and was with stuff that was probably almost a decade old even then. > > >> In some cases, you had to force a device to be at a >> non-standard >> address, possibly because a 3rd party device could not be >> configured at >> the address the DEC enumeration scheme wanted to put it >> at. This was >> pretty easy to do in later VMS systems. > > Very easy to do in RSX-11M-PLUS as well. A simple one line > command, which can be done on the running system. > OK, I ran RSX-11M, but never M-PLUS. I remember doing sysgens late at night to reconfigure the I/O addresses. >> Unfortunately, this type of misconfiguration is fairly >> hard to detect >> with software. Later devices (MSCP) had an >> autoconfiguration scheme >> where the OS would assign the CSR and vector at boot time. > > Well, half correct anyway. > The CSR is never autoassigned. It always is configured by > switches or jumpers on the board. Some of the more modern > controllers, like MSCP controllers, setup the vector > through software. > OK, what I USED to know is just fading away! Yes, what you say makes perfect sense. Jon From ben at bensinclair.com Tue Aug 18 21:36:35 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:36:35 -0500 Subject: MAINDEX-11 CZKMA Diagnostic? Message-ID: I'm again trying to debug my PDP-11/23, and I believe I'm having trouble with my M8067-LB/MSV-11 memory. According to the manual, there is a diagnostic program called CZKMA (for my 18-bit system), but I can't seem to find it. I have all of the xxdp images from AK6DN, but this one doesn't appear to be on any of those. Some searching shows references to it and even a (poorly) scanned source listing, but does anyone know if I can get it on a TU58 image or another format? Thanks! -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From jason at textfiles.com Tue Aug 18 21:42:36 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 22:42:36 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D3E2B6.60708@shiresoft.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D93C@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D3E2B6.60708@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: I am more than happy to discuss with people alternate ways that the information on the Internet Archive could be presented. On Aug 18, 2015 9:58 PM, "Guy Sotomayor" wrote: > > > On 8/18/15 6:35 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > >> IA saturates the channel. Jason and IA are deliberately working to >>> redirect all search >>> traffic to IA from the original mirrors by constantly creating useless >>> 'new' content that >>> Google thinks is real. >>> >>> I have watched over time as the volume of Google top search hits have >>> migrated to IA hosted >>> content from the mirrors. >>> >> I have occasionally stumbled into the bitsavers stuff on IA and was just >> confused and perplexed about what the IA guys are trying to do. Bitsavers >> has a perfectly obvious and navigable layout; IA makes no sense at all. >> >> >> I just went to IA to see what all of the fuss was about. > > I can sum up what I saw in one word. Yech! > > I agree with Tim, what IA is doing makes no sense. > > About the only thing that I can figure out is that they decided to make it > "searchable" (but I didn't spend much time trying to figure out how "deep" > the search could go). The problem that I have with a lot of the whole > "searchable" notion, is that in many ways the information is not longer > "navigable". > > Sure with a search, I can get a lot of "hits" but the information is not > presented in any meaningful way (other than a simple linear list) and > rather > than presenting some additional navigational structure, it requires > re-casting > the search to (hopefully) get to a list that is reasonable to search > through > which is probably more work (and error prone). > > TTFN - Guy > From useddec at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 21:51:27 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:51:27 -0500 Subject: DEC Fiche EP-M8436-MA-A In-Reply-To: <3A3B96B5-5525-4F9F-B638-066A55A63774@bitscience.ca> References: <3A3B96B5-5525-4F9F-B638-066A55A63774@bitscience.ca> Message-ID: I have some DECMATE print sets, but not sure which ones. From what Jay says,It's in the DECMATE 1 set. I'll see what I can find. I need to take a few months and go through my fiche... Paul On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Robert Ferguson wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I?m looking for a scan or a printout of the contents of DEC fiche > EP-M8436-MA-A. > > It?s referenced at the top of page 163 of > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/fiche_200dpi/0254_index_85-07.pdf, > and allegedly contains the details for M8436, M8437,M8439, and M8440 boards > -- all of which were parts for the Decmate series of machines. > > If anyone has access to this (even if you have no way to read it), or has > a pointer to where I might find it, I?d very much appreciate if you?d drop > me a line. > > Thanks very much, > Rob Ferguson From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 22:12:53 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 20:12:53 -0700 Subject: MAINDEX-11 CZKMA Diagnostic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I'm again trying to debug my PDP-11/23, and I believe I'm having > trouble with my M8067-LB/MSV-11 memory. > > According to the manual, there is a diagnostic program called CZKMA > (for my 18-bit system), but I can't seem to find it. > > I have all of the xxdp images from AK6DN, but this one doesn't appear > to be on any of those. Some searching shows references to it and even > a (poorly) scanned source listing, but does anyone know if I can get > it on a TU58 image or another format? > http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/discimages/rl02/xxdp25.rl02.gz sim> boot rl0 BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5 REVISION: F0 BOOTED FROM DL0 124KW OF MEMORY NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM RESTART ADDRESS: 152000 TYPE "H" FOR HELP ! .DIR ZKMA*.* ENTRY# FILNAM.EXT DATE LENGTH START VERSION 496 ZKMAF0.BIC 1-MAR-89 9 023276 FREE BLOCKS: 2929 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf Page 1-83 LSI MEMORY ZKMAF0 0-28K (124K) WORD MEMORY TEST From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 18 22:30:25 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 22:30:25 -0500 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D93C@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D93C@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <55D3F851.5050904@charter.net> On 8/18/2015 8:35 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> IA saturates the channel. Jason and IA are deliberately working to redirect all search >> traffic to IA from the original mirrors by constantly creating useless 'new' content that >> Google thinks is real. >> >> I have watched over time as the volume of Google top search hits have migrated to IA hosted >> content from the mirrors. > > I have occasionally stumbled into the bitsavers stuff on IA and was just confused and perplexed about what the IA guys are trying to do. Bitsavers has a perfectly obvious and navigable layout; IA makes no sense at all. > > (Of course I'm a little biased!!!) > > Tim N3QE > IA seems to be search based, rather than navigation based - but without a good engine, or if they have a good engine, the interface isn't intuitive. The might want to look into Lucene / SOLR. JRJ From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 22:40:13 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 22:40:13 -0500 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? Message-ID: As part of my C-64 RS-232 to M15 60mA CL project, I've put together a simple MAX232 based interface to connect the TTL levels on the C-64 to the standard RS-232 +/- levels. Is there any reason that I can or cannot install LEDs - on either side of the MAX232 converter - to give some indication of line status? Specifically, a pair of LEDs, one each for Tx and Rx lines, to blink / etc. as line status changes and data moves. I don't see any obvious issue - but I can conceive of a situation where it might screw up the line in some way I haven't considered. Comments? From brain at jbrain.com Tue Aug 18 22:50:18 2015 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 22:50:18 -0500 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D3FCFA.10700@jbrain.com> On 8/18/2015 10:40 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > As part of my C-64 RS-232 to M15 60mA CL project, I've put together a > simple MAX232 based interface to connect the TTL levels on the C-64 to the > standard RS-232 +/- levels. > > Is there any reason that I can or cannot install LEDs - on either side of > the MAX232 converter - to give some indication of line status? > Specifically, a pair of LEDs, one each for Tx and Rx lines, to blink / etc. > as line status changes and data moves. > > I don't see any obvious issue - but I can conceive of a situation where it > might screw up the line in some way I haven't considered. > > Comments? Probably "best" to feed the TTL RX and TX lines to a 74'04 and then hook the output to a 330 ohm and then the cathode of a LED, with anode going to 5V. But, probably good enough is to just put the diode cathode on the TX and RX lines, 330 ohm to 5V, and have fun. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 22:52:48 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 20:52:48 -0700 Subject: Speaking of Creating 5 1/4" floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8318A6328B5E4AC7B3BC0DC6D5617723@workshop> Try Imagedisk for DOS (with actually somewhat of an interface). Great software, superb manual. http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm Also Omnidisk for DOS (command line) http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniDisk/OmniDisk.htm#Downloads And Omniflop for WinXP with a GUI http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm#Downloads All of them can read and write a particular sector. With Imagedisk you can image the original disk to a file image, and view the image data in a nice hex editor by sector, make your changes, and write back the modified version to a disk. All with a simple and efficient DOS GUI. Marc ----------------------------- jwsmobile wrote: I wonder if someone can help with a bit of a problem I have. I have a compaq portable 3 system which has a working Pick (Non dos) system on it. It has the 5 1/4" floppy drives on it. I am looking for a bootable floppy or 2 with something like dos 6.x on it and some utility that can read and write disk sectors. Preferably the latter is a nice gui program, but beggers can't be choosers. I need to boot it up from the floppy drive and modify the pick system dictionary to remove the main password. So the change to the system will be surgical, just one sector. If anyone can help, can you send me a note and let me know how I can compensate you for your help. If I really move crap around I may be able to find a system with the 5 1/4" floppies on it, but I'm not sure I could get a program onto the system then out to the 5 1/4" drive and am also looking for suggestions about what disk utility / editor might be useful if anyone has suggestions on that. I'll go ahead and dredge up something soon if I can't get help from somewhere. thanks Jim Stephens ----------------------------- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Aug 18 22:54:39 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 20:54:39 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D3E2B6.60708@shiresoft.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D93C@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D3E2B6.60708@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 2015-Aug-18, at 6:58 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On 8/18/15 6:35 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >>> IA saturates the channel. Jason and IA are deliberately working to redirect all search >>> traffic to IA from the original mirrors by constantly creating useless 'new' content that >>> Google thinks is real. >>> >>> I have watched over time as the volume of Google top search hits have migrated to IA hosted >>> content from the mirrors. >> I have occasionally stumbled into the bitsavers stuff on IA and was just confused and perplexed about what the IA guys are trying to do. Bitsavers has a perfectly obvious and navigable layout; IA makes no sense at all. >> >> > I just went to IA to see what all of the fuss was about. > > I can sum up what I saw in one word. Yech! > > I agree with Tim, what IA is doing makes no sense. > > ... Similarly, having gone and looked at IA, I can understand why Al is peeved. While the IA pages do mention and give some attribution to bitsavers it none-the-less comes across as a Jason Scott / IA effort. The documents are prominently labeled as "uploaded by Jason Scott". Yes, it's good in an archive to document who did what when, but "uploaded" ? . . No. They were copied from bitsavers by Jason Scott. It's not the same thing. On the IA web pages and in JS's blog, one is left with the impression that while bitsavers has been doing the scanning, these documents are generously being made available to you the net user thanks to the efforts of Jason Scott / IA. In reality, all JS/IA are doing is presenting an alternative interface to a copy of a pre-existing and already-net-accessible archive (and apparently without the consent of the people who went to the effort of creating that archive). As I see it, JS/IA are absconding with someone else's efforts. In regards to someone else's message on this topic, the 'copies' that JS/IA are making by copying over the net are not comparable to the 'copies' that AK/CHM are making in collecting, scanning paper documents, and doing media recovery of old digital media. Perhaps a second form of interface to bitsavers is something to be considered, however from a functional perspective at this time, I'll be sticking with the bitsavers interface. If JS wishes to proceed with this, and is sincere in his open message on the list to Al, he should take the IA interface down and get Al's consent and agreement as to attribution and presentation before putting anything back up. If he doesn't get that consent, too bad - there are plenty of other backup/mirror archives of bitsavers, the material is not in danger of being lost. From north at alum.mit.edu Tue Aug 18 22:55:44 2015 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 20:55:44 -0700 Subject: MAINDEX-11 CZKMA Diagnostic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D3FE40.90507@alum.mit.edu> On 8/18/2015 7:36 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I'm again trying to debug my PDP-11/23, and I believe I'm having > trouble with my M8067-LB/MSV-11 memory. > > According to the manual, there is a diagnostic program called CZKMA > (for my 18-bit system), but I can't seem to find it. > > I have all of the xxdp images from AK6DN, but this one doesn't appear > to be on any of those. Some searching shows references to it and even > a (poorly) scanned source listing, but does anyone know if I can get > it on a TU58 image or another format? > > Thanks! > VMJAB0 is the MSV11-J memory test, on this TU58 disk image: https://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/TU58/1123_1.dsk From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 23:03:22 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 00:03:22 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: > Are you serious? Jason is currently sweating his balls off trying to save at least a portion of a huge warehouse of unique documentation under an incredibly tight deadline. Just for the record, the Manuals Plus hoard is not, in any way, a bunch of "unique documentation". Test equipment docs are actually very common, and hoards of thousands of manuals are also fairly common. I will try to elaborate on the subject later, but I have had one helluva day...(in a mostly good way)... -- Will From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 23:05:16 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:05:16 -0700 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have connected a 1.2M 5.25" floppy to my computer. After a bit of jumper learning and setting, it's recognized and reads my old DD and HD floppies fine. But for the life of me I cannot write to it. Not under DOS, Win98, or WindowsXP. Which all read fine. But can't add a file. It goes through to the motions and makes the noise, heads moves as if everything went fine, but if I take the disk out and put it back in, the file is not there. I can't format either. Fails after a while on the above OS'es with different error messages without the head moving past track 0, suggesting it can't even read back the first track it's trying to format. Formatting from ImageDisk or OmniDisk looks like it works (head goes through the motions over the whole disk). But nothing seems to be written on the disk: neither utility can read the formatting back. Both HD and DD. On the same cable there is a 3.5" A: drive which reads and writes fine. Can't be the controller since it works on the 3.5" drive? The cable maybe? I tried several. Anyone has had this happened ever? Time to bring out the o'scope? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 23:10:29 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 00:10:29 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D350D9.7040208@bitsavers.org> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D350D9.7040208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Ask Will Donzelli about the Cyber Resources rescue we did. > You'll not get any sympathy for waiting 'til the last day > from him or me. The Data General save was far worse. At least with CyberResources (mainly a New Jersey CDC reseller that had a very sizable library, for those confused by the reference), the pressure to save the stuff quickly dispersed. EMC, if I recall correctly, was more like "the tape library is being wheeled out onto the shipping dock tomorrow. You have a few days to take it, or the janitors will deal with it.". -- Will From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 23:12:19 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 00:12:19 -0400 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try swapping both a and b drives. Try with only 5 1/4" plugged in to a and then again to b. Makes a difference? Specify make and model of motherboard, drives. Describe cable. Describe ROM settings. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net I have connected a 1.2M 5.25" floppy to my computer. After a bit of jumper learning and setting, it's recognized and reads my old DD and HD floppies fine. But for the life of me I cannot write to it. Not under DOS, Win98, or WindowsXP. Which all read fine. But can't add a file. It goes through to the motions and makes the noise, heads moves as if everything went fine, but if I take the disk out and put it back in, the file is not there. I can't format either. Fails after a while on the above OS'es with different error messages without the head moving past track 0, suggesting it can't even read back the first track it's trying to format. Formatting from ImageDisk or OmniDisk looks like it works (head goes through the motions over the whole disk). But nothing seems to be written on the disk: neither utility can read the formatting back. Both HD and DD. On the same cable there is a 3.5" A: drive which reads and writes fine. Can't be the controller since it works on the 3.5" drive? The cable maybe? I tried several. Anyone has had this happened ever? Time to bring out the o'scope? From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 23:22:01 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 23:22:01 -0500 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If reads go fine all around, but nothing will write, I'd be concerned that the write electronics (write amp, etc.) might be defective. But try Will'm D's suggestions, before taking that line, of course.. On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:12 PM, william degnan wrote: > Try swapping both a and b drives. Try with only 5 1/4" plugged in to a and > then again to b. Makes a difference? > > Specify make and model of motherboard, drives. Describe cable. Describe > ROM settings. > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > > > I have connected a 1.2M 5.25" floppy to my computer. After a bit of jumper > learning and setting, it's recognized and reads my old DD and HD floppies > fine. But for the life of me I cannot write to it. Not under DOS, Win98, or > WindowsXP. Which all read fine. > > But can't add a file. It goes through to the motions and makes the noise, > heads moves as if everything went fine, but if I take the disk out and put > it back in, the file is not there. > > I can't format either. Fails after a while on the above OS'es with > different > error messages without the head moving past track 0, suggesting it can't > even read back the first track it's trying to format. Formatting from > ImageDisk or OmniDisk looks like it works (head goes through the motions > over the whole disk). But nothing seems to be written on the disk: neither > utility can read the formatting back. Both HD and DD. > > On the same cable there is a 3.5" A: drive which reads and writes fine. > Can't be the controller since it works on the 3.5" drive? The cable maybe? > I > tried several. Anyone has had this happened ever? Time to bring out the > o'scope? > From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Aug 18 23:27:19 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:27:19 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Those little RS232 testers with LEDs built into a double DB25 connector box are usually just made of LEDs and resistors connected to each signal line. They can load signals enough to cause problems at high speeds, with weak drivers, or with long cables, but usually they don't cause problems. If you're concerned, you could always include jumpers or switches to disconnect the LEDs when they're not needed. Of course, buffering the TTL signals eliminate any such problems. But on the other hand, using two LEDs connected with opposite polarities on each RS232 level signal lets your discriminate between driven positive, driven negative, and open. That can come in handy when debugging things where the other end may or may not be driving properly, or may be mis-wired. For an example, feel free to take a look at this little modular jack RS232 tester that I made: https://github.com/NF6X/YostTester/blob/master/YostTester.pdf The red/green LED pairs show whether each line is high, low or open. Resistor values may vary depending on the LEDs that you choose. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 18 23:30:31 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:30:31 -0700 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D40667.5080808@sydex.com> On 08/18/2015 09:05 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > > > I have connected a 1.2M 5.25" floppy to my computer. After a bit of > jumper learning and setting, it's recognized and reads my old DD and > HD floppies fine. But for the life of me I cannot write to it. Not > under DOS, Win98, or WindowsXP. Which all read fine. Make sure that "WRITE GATE" goes low (use a logic probe) on pin 24 of the drive while you do your write. If so, your floppy write circuitry has a problem. I.e., it's not the cable. --Chuck From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Aug 18 23:48:33 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 23:48:33 -0500 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D93C@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D3E2B6.60708@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20150819044833.GC6105@lonesome.com> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 08:54:39PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I can understand why Al is peeved. IMHO the reply was conciliatory. I'm willing to give a little bit of the benefit of the doubt in the meantime. I don't expect to be best-friends with any/everyone on the list but I would like to hope that we have more common goals than differences in approach. mcl From scaron at umich.edu Tue Aug 18 15:22:34 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 16:22:34 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <20150818202056.1659518C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150818202056.1659518C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I don't care too much about file sizes with how cheap storage is these days but I've done some scanning projects in the past and there's always a critic, LOL. Best, Sean On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Sean Caron > > > I have found that even fairly fine detail reproduces okay with a 300 > > DPI scan ... there's no need in scanning with extraneous bit depth > and > > then you start to get people complaining about file sizes > > I have found that one can generally have one's cake, and eat it too: > if I scan at 600dpi in black and white, and then use "CCITT Group 4" > compression, the resulting images (of prints) are ~200KB per page. > Is that small enough? :-) > > Noel > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 18 16:11:47 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:11:47 +0000 Subject: Shugart 800 spindle bearings (Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem) In-Reply-To: <55D3302A.6020708@charter.net> References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> <55CF8A2D.1030007@charter.net> <55CF9D55.2070200@charter.net> <55CFF6F7.3000909@charter.net> <55D250A4.1090405@charter.net> , <55D3302A.6020708@charter.net> Message-ID: > Yeah, but the TIP31A part is cheap, and is free air mounted on its leads > - it isn't screwed down. I'd rather do the repair nicely. Anyway, it Sure... What I would do is bolt a tag + wire onto the tab of the old transistor (don't tell me you don't keep solder tags and small nuts/bolts (M3, 4-40 UNC, whatever) 'in stock' and get it running for the moment. You can then carry on debugging the drive > gave me an excuse to order a 750 ohm resistor so that replacement > matches, instead of the 2 x 1.5K parallel pair I had put in. And also order a replacement transistor and resistors and fit them when they arrive. -tony From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 18 17:25:09 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 17:25:09 -0500 Subject: Shugart 800 spindle bearings (Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem) In-Reply-To: References: <20150814150239.DD5A918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55CE16FC.6090605@charter.net> <55CE484F.6080408@charter.net> <55CE80A8.3030904@charter.net> <55CF5BC5.1080700@charter.net> <55CF76EA.6060301@charter.net> <55CF8A2D.1030007@charter.net> <55CF9D55.2070200@charter.net> <55CFF6F7.3000909@charter.net> <55D250A4.1090405@charter.net> <55D3302A.6020708@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D3B0C5.9000803@charter.net> On 8/18/2015 4:11 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> Yeah, but the TIP31A part is cheap, and is free air mounted on its leads >> - it isn't screwed down. I'd rather do the repair nicely. Anyway, it > > Sure... > > What I would do is bolt a tag + wire onto the tab of the old transistor (don't > tell me you don't keep solder tags and small nuts/bolts (M3, 4-40 UNC, whatever) > 'in stock' and get it running for the moment. You can then carry on debugging the > drive Yes, I do have them. But it really isn't worth it - the parts are due to arrive tomorrow. ;) Thief River Falls, MN isn't very far from Madison, WI. ;) > >> gave me an excuse to order a 750 ohm resistor so that replacement >> matches, instead of the 2 x 1.5K parallel pair I had put in. > > And also order a replacement transistor and resistors and fit them when they > arrive. > Already replaced all the resistors that showed any sign of stress. JRJ From jason at textfiles.com Wed Aug 19 05:54:00 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 06:54:00 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D3F851.5050904@charter.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D93C@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D3F851.5050904@charter.net> Message-ID: There is currently a design and programming team looking to improve and redo the search interface. I've been seeing their design approaches go by on the internal channels as they revise it. I'm not sure when it all goes live, but an improved and more directed search is absolutely in the plans. On Aug 18, 2015 11:28 PM, "Jay Jaeger" wrote: > > > On 8/18/2015 8:35 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > >> IA saturates the channel. Jason and IA are deliberately working to > redirect all search > >> traffic to IA from the original mirrors by constantly creating useless > 'new' content that > >> Google thinks is real. > >> > >> I have watched over time as the volume of Google top search hits have > migrated to IA hosted > >> content from the mirrors. > > > > I have occasionally stumbled into the bitsavers stuff on IA and was just > confused and perplexed about what the IA guys are trying to do. Bitsavers > has a perfectly obvious and navigable layout; IA makes no sense at all. > > > > (Of course I'm a little biased!!!) > > > > Tim N3QE > > > > IA seems to be search based, rather than navigation based - but without > a good engine, or if they have a good engine, the interface isn't > intuitive. The might want to look into Lucene / SOLR. > > JRJ > From jason at textfiles.com Wed Aug 19 06:10:29 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 07:10:29 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D93C@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D3E2B6.60708@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2015 11:54 PM, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: > > On 2015-Aug-18, at 6:58 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On 8/18/15 6:35 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > >>> IA saturates the channel. Jason and IA are deliberately working to redirect all search > >>> traffic to IA from the original mirrors by constantly creating useless 'new' content that > >>> Google thinks is real. > >>> > >>> I have watched over time as the volume of Google top search hits have migrated to IA hosted > >>> content from the mirrors. > >> I have occasionally stumbled into the bitsavers stuff on IA and was just confused and perplexed about what the IA guys are trying to do. Bitsavers has a perfectly obvious and navigable layout; IA makes no sense at all. > >> > >> > > I just went to IA to see what all of the fuss was about. > > > > I can sum up what I saw in one word. Yech! > > > > I agree with Tim, what IA is doing makes no sense. > > > > ... > > Similarly, having gone and looked at IA, I can understand why Al is peeved. > > While the IA pages do mention and give some attribution to bitsavers it none-the-less comes across as a Jason Scott / IA effort. > The documents are prominently labeled as "uploaded by Jason Scott". Yes, it's good in an archive to document who did what when, but "uploaded" ? . . No. They were copied from bitsavers by Jason Scott. It's not the same thing. > On the IA web pages and in JS's blog, one is left with the impression that while bitsavers has been doing the scanning, these documents are generously being made available to you the net user thanks to the efforts of Jason Scott / IA. In reality, all JS/IA are doing is presenting an alternative interface to a copy of a pre-existing and already-net-accessible archive (and apparently without the consent of the people who went to the effort of creating that archive). > > As I see it, JS/IA are absconding with someone else's efforts. > > In regards to someone else's message on this topic, the 'copies' that JS/IA are making by copying over the net are not comparable to the 'copies' that AK/CHM are making in collecting, scanning paper documents, and doing media recovery of old digital media. > > Perhaps a second form of interface to bitsavers is something to be considered, however from a functional perspective at this time, I'll be sticking with the bitsavers interface. > > If JS wishes to proceed with this, and is sincere in his open message on the list to Al, he should take the IA interface down and get Al's consent and agreement as to attribution and presentation before putting anything back up. If he doesn't get that consent, too bad - there are plenty of other backup/mirror archives of bitsavers, the material is not in danger of being lost. > I'll respond in a high level to your points. Before January of this year, the Internet Archive had a completely different user interface. Redesigning its back end from the ground up, this interface went live in January and has been continually updated based on feedback and improvements. Some of the aspects you mention, such as the uploader's name being incredibly prominent, and the issues in determining the provenance of the scanning of the documents, definitely changed under the new interface. That said, many of the issues were extant when the Internet Archive bitsavers mirror was first being worked on, back in 2011, four years ago. I don't know where you're getting the impression that on my blog I claim any sort of major hand in bitsavers. I talk about the bitsavers collective and the incredible work they've done. Again, three or four years ago I was given the impression that Al didn't want his name quite as prominent in copying documents. I'm happy to go review the mail conversations, if it comes to that. My main point of my response stands, however. None of these are insurmountable problems. It has been literally years that they have been up. In working to host things at the archive, many other people have sent requests for changes in verbiage, attribution, licensing, linking, and everything else. I've been involved in hundreds of projects, everything from collections of sermons and digitization of cassette tapes, to being handed Betamax tapes and asked to turn them into viewable versions online. Nobody has had trouble communicating with me or working with me to have the attribution, impression, or presentation tweaked. I had to hear that there was any sort of problem by a particularly over active person forwarding a general insult about me from the chat box. It then took until now to find the source of the insult, months after I wrote to Al. This is silly. I reiterate what I said in my message on here: I'm available anytime to talk with Al and Jay about what they want to do. From jason at textfiles.com Wed Aug 19 06:20:48 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 07:20:48 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: Combining both of your posts in a response, William. My being involved in this Manuals Plus project came as a result of a large number of people telling me that Manuals Plus was going out of business and that there were a number of documents and manuals that were, if not rare or unique, definitely hard to find in good condition. I'll be the first to say that I am not aware of the situation or the full scope of such documentation, but the calls were numerous enough that I took it seriously. Once the items are moved to the neutral place, I'll be able to assist and work with evaluating it. In terms of waiting until the last minute, I had been on the phone with the sole employee, Becky, since early this year. The situation at the business was such that she was able to tell me that the items were destined to eventually go away but that there was no obvious endpoint, as the owner had been doing a number of sales or offerings to people as the business wound down. Harassment and threats and non serious offers had been coming into the office at various points, so the owner was not particularly interested in talking to outside third parties. It was only this past Wednesday, one week ago, that Becky told me that they were now given the word that they were absolutely shutting down and that everything needed to be out by the beginning of the next week. Believe me, I wish this was much more methodical and able to be evaluated too. But we have essentially been given a little less than 72 hours to move on this, so here I am, doing my best. I would love to have had more time to reach out, but here we are, and there it is. I'm not looking for sympathy based on the project parameters, or even claiming that the project is particularly unique. I hold admiration and respect for anyone who has to do this sort of work frequently. I'm working the best I can with the knowledge that I have. On Aug 19, 2015 12:03 AM, "William Donzelli" wrote: > > Are you serious? Jason is currently sweating his balls off trying to > save at least a portion of a huge warehouse of unique documentation under > an incredibly tight deadline. > > Just for the record, the Manuals Plus hoard is not, in any way, a > bunch of "unique documentation". Test equipment docs are actually very > common, and hoards of thousands of manuals are also fairly common. > > I will try to elaborate on the subject later, but I have had one > helluva day...(in a mostly good way)... > > -- > Will > From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Aug 19 07:23:26 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:23:26 +0200 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <55D3E98F.9080208@pico-systems.com> References: <55D21CA7.6090003@update.uu.se> <20150817181826.GA17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150817211107.GD17678@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818093105.GA91825@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D30D7D.7060900@update.uu.se> <20150818111707.GB96818@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150818121708.GA2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D34963.5010406@update.uu.se> <20150818154804.GC2295@beast.freibergnet.de> <55D365CD.8040505@pico-systems.com> <55D372C8.6010100@update.uu.se> <55D3E98F.9080208@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55D4753E.2020407@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-19 04:27, Jon Elson wrote: > On 08/18/2015 01:00 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> The floating address space was pretty much there from the start for >> the Unibus, even before you had "large" systems. For most controllers, >> only the first one has a fixed address, and all others were assigned >> from the floating space. Makes sense, as it was just too costly to >> statically assign space in the I/O page for all possibly >> configurations you could imagine. > The CAPABILITY to do it was always there, that is quite true. But, most > of the OLD PDP-11 devices had a VERY limited selection of addresses. > Now, some DID have something like 6 address bits settable in a jumper or > wire-wrap field, but I know a number of devices had just a couple DIP > switches that limited you to 4 or 8 possible addresses. I know on some > old stuff I actually cut traces and re-patched the address select bits > to make them run at non-standard addresses. > My PDP-11 experience started in 1975, and was with stuff that was > probably almost a decade old even then. 1975 was the year the 11/70 was introduced. The Unibus only came into existence five years before this, in 1970. :-) So, the gear you worked on was definitely no more than five years old. Anyway, I can actually pinpoint the floating address space convention in time pretty good. The PDP-11 Peripherials Handbook from 1972 have each device listed with specific addresses assigned for as many options as any customers were expected to ever have. There is no mention of floating address space for CSRs, but there is floating vector space. The PDP-11 Peripherial Handbook frmo 1973 do define the floating address space, so this is the timeframe when it was realized that address space needed to be better utilized (was too small for reserved addresses for everything that was popping up). So devices up until 1972/1973 might have a more limited number of jumpers, to just select from the reserved range for that specific device. Anything from 1973 onwards, I would expect to have full flexibility on address selection on the Unibus. The Qbus is different in that DEC went back to a more limited flexibility there. >>> In some cases, you had to force a device to be at a non-standard >>> address, possibly because a 3rd party device could not be configured at >>> the address the DEC enumeration scheme wanted to put it at. This was >>> pretty easy to do in later VMS systems. >> >> Very easy to do in RSX-11M-PLUS as well. A simple one line command, >> which can be done on the running system. >> > OK, I ran RSX-11M, but never M-PLUS. I remember doing sysgens late at > night to reconfigure the I/O addresses. Yep. And SYSGENs took time. What a chore... :-) Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Aug 19 07:25:31 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:25:31 +0200 Subject: MAINDEX-11 CZKMA Diagnostic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D475BB.6030900@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-19 04:36, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I'm again trying to debug my PDP-11/23, and I believe I'm having > trouble with my M8067-LB/MSV-11 memory. > > According to the manual, there is a diagnostic program called CZKMA > (for my 18-bit system), but I can't seem to find it. > > I have all of the xxdp images from AK6DN, but this one doesn't appear > to be on any of those. Some searching shows references to it and even > a (poorly) scanned source listing, but does anyone know if I can get > it on a TU58 image or another format? Others have already given pointers and help. I thought I should point out that when a diagnostic is called CZKMA, the actual filename in XXDP will not have the leading 'C', and in addition it will have two characters appended, which gives a version. So, the normal way to refer to the diagnostic CZKMA as a file in XXDP would be ZKMA?? Johnny From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Aug 19 09:14:33 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 09:14:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Aug 2015, William Donzelli wrote: >> Are you serious? Jason is currently sweating his balls off trying to >> save at least a portion of a huge warehouse of unique documentation >> under an incredibly tight deadline. > > Just for the record, the Manuals Plus hoard is not, in any way, a bunch > of "unique documentation". Test equipment docs are actually very common, > and hoards of thousands of manuals are also fairly common. > > I will try to elaborate on the subject later, but I have had one helluva > day...(in a mostly good way)... Actually, their collection was unique and contained a lot of material which others' libraries (either dead tree or digital) do not contain. This year, I purchased many one of a kind manuals from Manuals Plus for equipment ranging from the 1940s to 1980s that I've had sitting around for 10-15+ years. No one else had those manuals, period. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 11:18:38 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 12:18:38 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: > Actually, their collection was unique and contained a lot of material which > others' libraries (either dead tree or digital) do not contain. This year, I > purchased many one of a kind manuals from Manuals Plus for equipment ranging > from the 1940s to 1980s that I've had sitting around for 10-15+ years. No > one else had those manuals, period. Except for a really tiny percentage of unique (or really scarce) manuals, all these hoards contain mostly the same stuff. HP, Tek, and the military printed huge quantities of manuals - far beyond the number of actual pieces of equipment. Last year, when I cleaned out the Radio Research library (roughly 18 pallets and gaylords) worth, I certainly found some very scarce docs for test equipment, but by far most of it was the same old same old. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 11:18:58 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 12:18:58 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: > My being involved in this Manuals Plus project came as a result of a large > number of people telling me that Manuals Plus was going out of business and > that there were a number of documents and manuals that were, if not rare or > unique, definitely hard to find in good condition. Welcome to the collapse of the manual business. It used to be great! In a way, it was the easiest part of the surplus business - easy to store, easy to sort, easy to ship, easy to copy, easy to sell. > In terms of waiting until the last minute, I had been on the phone with the > sole employee, Becky, since early this year. Yes, I feel that pain. I certainly have been in similar situations. We can not read the minds of all the parties involved with these sorts of deals, so we do what we can. I just had a recent ham estate cleanout that was similar - a call on Thursday from a friend (the executor) resulted in a cleaned out shop by Sunday. My friend knew it was sort of crappy to give such short notice, but he was only doing what the family wanted. They dillydallied the panicked, basically. I have found that in many of these "last minute" cases, the urgency is just an illusion. The aforementioned Cyber Resources rescue was hurryhurryhurry, but turned out to take months. Often the estates or businesses folding completely understand how long it takes to shut things down. > Harassment and threats WTF? Why would someone do these things, unless they wanted the building? > and non serious offers had been coming into the > office at various points, so the owner was not particularly interested in > talking to outside third parties. This I can understand. Low-ballers are everywhere. Most of them are not even serious about finishing the job. It is sort of like some guy that sees a classic car in the junkyard, but has no experience turning a wrench, but figures a low-ball bid might get him in the game. It almost never works out. > Believe me, I wish this was much more methodical and able to be evaluated > too. But we have essentially been given a little less than 72 hours to move > on this, so here I am, doing my best. I would love to have had more time to > reach out, but here we are, and there it is. I applaud you for doing this, and had my last five or six days been so hectic, I probably would have driven down and joined all the fun. I am no stranger to this sort of work. I would offer advice, but I think the time is too late. I applaud you not just for saving the manuals, very much most of which are simply not rare at all, but because you are actually a guy to follow through and do it. I am generally annoyed by the old radio folks (and I am including the test equipment guys in this group, along with just about all the other old electric technology people), as they see that digital archives of tech information is great - they just do all their archiving in a half baked, unorganized way. They just do not see that the Bitsavers model works great. Hell, many of them do not even have mirrors, and probably barely have backups beyond a burned DVD. More than a few has just vanished, left to rot on Geocities or AOL. In closing, I might ask you to consider taking your sweet time getting this stuff online. There are still some manual dealers out there. Let them handle the decline of their business in whatever way they see fit. All of them know it is just a matter of time - probably five years or less. If you flood the net with the free scans, it might really fuck them up. I know some of them, and it is not unreasonable for me to think that they might get really annoyed by your efforts and burn their libraries just for spite. -- Will From jason at textfiles.com Wed Aug 19 11:52:18 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 12:52:18 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: > In closing, I might ask you to consider taking your sweet time getting > this stuff online. There are still some manual dealers out there. Let > them handle the decline of their business in whatever way they see > fit. All of them know it is just a matter of time - probably five > years or less. If you flood the net with the free scans, it might > really fuck them up. I know some of them, and it is not unreasonable > for me to think that they might get really annoyed by your efforts and > burn their libraries just for spite. > > -- > Will That is a most interesting metric. I honestly hadn't considered that issue. The key, I think, will be communication with them to understand which manuals have sales going on, and which ones it would be advantageous to get online because they have long dropped into historical myths. Thank you for the advice. All of it. From ben at bensinclair.com Wed Aug 19 14:13:24 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:13:24 -0500 Subject: MAINDEX-11 CZKMA Diagnostic? In-Reply-To: <55D475BB.6030900@update.uu.se> References: <55D475BB.6030900@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Thanks everyone! It's running right now, and seems to be passing, however the parity error LED on the board is lit. The docs mentioned that ZKMA's messages (plus the source) would lead me to a potential bad module, but it doesn't seem to be failing. VMJAB0 doesn't run at all on my system. It turns off the run light as soon as it starts.That's why I was wanting to try the diagnostic mentioned in the MSV-11 manual. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-19 04:36, Ben Sinclair wrote: >> >> I'm again trying to debug my PDP-11/23, and I believe I'm having >> trouble with my M8067-LB/MSV-11 memory. >> >> According to the manual, there is a diagnostic program called CZKMA >> (for my 18-bit system), but I can't seem to find it. >> >> I have all of the xxdp images from AK6DN, but this one doesn't appear >> to be on any of those. Some searching shows references to it and even >> a (poorly) scanned source listing, but does anyone know if I can get >> it on a TU58 image or another format? > > > Others have already given pointers and help. I thought I should point out > that when a diagnostic is called CZKMA, the actual filename in XXDP will not > have the leading 'C', and in addition it will have two characters appended, > which gives a version. > > So, the normal way to refer to the diagnostic CZKMA as a file in XXDP would > be ZKMA?? > > Johnny > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From js at cimmeri.com Wed Aug 19 14:18:41 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:18:41 -0500 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> On 8/19/2015 11:52 AM, Jason Scott wrote: >> In closing, I might ask you to consider taking your sweet time getting >> this stuff online. There are still some manual dealers out there. Let >> them handle the decline of their business in whatever way they see >> fit. All of them know it is just a matter of time - probably five >> years or less. If you flood the net with the free scans, it might >> really fuck them up. I know some of them, and it is not unreasonable >> for me to think that they might get really annoyed by your efforts and >> burn their libraries just for spite. >> >> -- >> Will > That is a most interesting metric. I honestly hadn't considered that issue. > The key, I think, will be communication with them to understand which > manuals have sales going on, and which ones it would be advantageous to get > online because they have long dropped into historical myths. Thank you for > the advice. All of it. A counterpoint to this might be to only scan manuals that are requested and can't be found anywhere else (with any reasonable ease). - J. From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Wed Aug 19 07:59:56 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:59:56 -0400 Subject: Analog to Digital Converter In-Reply-To: References: <55CF6642.3060709@comcast.net> <55D34C3B.8000503@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55D47DCC.9010107@comcast.net> On 8/18/2015 7:01 PM, dwight wrote: > Reading the note made me think of something else. > If it is an SAR, and you read to soon, the LSBs of the incomplete > conversion will always be the same. All ones or all zeros. > If it is a Sigma-Delta, and the input has noise > on it that is above the same rate, the LSB's will take on a > random, all ones or all zeros on different reading. > This is an indication that the input has not been properly > filtered or you have exceeded the slew rate, even if you are > within the frequency band width. > Most audio A/Ds assume a de-emphesis so that the higher > frequencies are reduced in slew rate. > Any noise above 1/2 the sample rate will be reflected into > the values. Anything above the sample rate will be as I > described, a mix of all 1's or all 0's on each sample. > Dwight > > That is exactly what I am seeing. The signal the ADC is trying to capture looks like a sinc function, lots of small ripples with a narrow high amplitude burst in the center. What gets lost are the small amplitude values. Doug From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Aug 19 16:09:01 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:09:01 -0700 Subject: VT100 keyboard (source?) Message-ID: <2B2545BB-31B4-4C69-A1C0-7F7DE305DE41@cs.ubc.ca> Would anyone have a surplus-to-needs, or know of a source for, a VT100 keyboard? This would actually be for the DECmateI/VT278 I mentioned on the list a couple weeks ago, Rob and I are looking into doing something with it. Alternatively, does anyone know if there is any degree of signalling compatibility between the VT100 and VT220/320 keyboards? Those RX floppies in the pedestal on ebay mentioned a week or two ago were just what was needed to complete it, as they actually looked like they were part of a 278, but the listing was removed from ebay. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 16:17:36 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 17:17:36 -0400 Subject: VT100 keyboard (source?) In-Reply-To: <2B2545BB-31B4-4C69-A1C0-7F7DE305DE41@cs.ubc.ca> References: <2B2545BB-31B4-4C69-A1C0-7F7DE305DE41@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Would anyone have a surplus-to-needs, or know of a source for, a VT100 keyboard? I have terminals and keyboards, but I don't know that I have more working keyboards than working terminals. > This would actually be for the DECmateI/VT278 I mentioned on the list a couple weeks ago, Rob and I are looking into doing something with it. Cool. I have one of those myself - just the basics - no addon cards, one set of floppies (room in the pedestal to add more), but I do have the "desk" upgrade (a metal clip that mounts where the keyboard tray normally goes, and a desk top and left-side leg so you have a workspace right in front of you rather than hunching up in front of the pedestal). > Alternatively, does anyone know if there is any degree of signalling compatibility between the VT100 and VT220/320 keyboards? None. The VT100 keyboard is 3-wire: power, ground, and bidirectional data with a dumb hardware UART in the keyboard; the VT220/320 keyboards (LK201 et al.) have a 4-wire interface with power, ground, tx, and rx, and a sophisticated (by comparison) character protocol. > Those RX floppies in the pedestal on ebay mentioned a week > or two ago were just what was needed to complete it, > as they actually looked like they were part of a 278 Yes. Except for missing the "wood" top, that did look to me like a VT278 floppy pedestal. You don't "need" that if you have room for a side-by-side RX01 or RX02. That pedestal is just mounting and packaging (along with a passive DB25<->Berg 40 adapter). You could use the same floppy cabinet as a MINC-11 with (AFAIK) the same cables. I think there is only one DEC standard for running an RX drive over DB25. The only part that might matter is RX01 vs RX02 (I _think_ MINCs came with either by the end). Either way, the floppy drive guts are all the same across all the lines. You can just get them in 3 packages (rack-mount, tabletop, or pedestal). It's only about mounting (and 40-pin internal vs 25-pin external). -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Aug 19 16:48:29 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:48:29 -0700 Subject: VT100 keyboard (source?) In-Reply-To: References: <2B2545BB-31B4-4C69-A1C0-7F7DE305DE41@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1C3C8C4E-E00D-4ED3-9E7F-688AE9DFA660@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Aug-19, at 2:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Would anyone have a surplus-to-needs, or know of a source for, a VT100 keyboard? > > I have terminals and keyboards, but I don't know that I have more > working keyboards than working terminals. > >> This would actually be for the DECmateI/VT278 I mentioned on the list a couple weeks ago, Rob and I are looking into doing something with it. > > Cool. I have one of those myself - just the basics - no addon cards, > one set of floppies (room in the pedestal to add more), but I do have > the "desk" upgrade (a metal clip that mounts where the keyboard tray > normally goes, and a desk top and left-side leg so you have a > workspace right in front of you rather than hunching up in front of > the pedestal). > >> Alternatively, does anyone know if there is any degree of signalling compatibility between the VT100 and VT220/320 keyboards? > > None. The VT100 keyboard is 3-wire: power, ground, and bidirectional > data with a dumb hardware UART in the keyboard; the VT220/320 > keyboards (LK201 et al.) have a 4-wire interface with power, ground, > tx, and rx, and a sophisticated (by comparison) character protocol. > >> Those RX floppies in the pedestal on ebay mentioned a week >> or two ago were just what was needed to complete it, >> as they actually looked like they were part of a 278 > > Yes. Except for missing the "wood" top, that did look to me like a > VT278 floppy pedestal. You don't "need" that if you have room for a > side-by-side RX01 or RX02. That pedestal is just mounting and > packaging (along with a passive DB25<->Berg 40 adapter). You could > use the same floppy cabinet as a MINC-11 with (AFAIK) the same cables. > I think there is only one DEC standard for running an RX drive over > DB25. The only part that might matter is RX01 vs RX02 (I _think_ > MINCs came with either by the end). Either way, the floppy drive guts > are all the same across all the lines. You can just get them in 3 > packages (rack-mount, tabletop, or pedestal). It's only about > mounting (and 40-pin internal vs 25-pin external). Thanks, that was a question I had been intending to ask, but to confirm: If one obtained (as appropriate) bare RX01/2 floppy drive(s), it would just be a matter of power supply for the floppies, and passive cabling to interface the drives to the CPU/display? I actually have the DB25-to-DC37 cable that goes between the disk unit and the DC37 connector on the CPU/display unit. If we move this along we may be asking for system software in the future, I haven't looked at what may be readily available (i.e. bitsavers) as yet. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 17:10:50 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 18:10:50 -0400 Subject: DECmate I floppies (was Re: VT100 keyboard (source?)) Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:48 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Thanks, that was a question I had been intending to ask, but to confirm: > If one obtained (as appropriate) bare RX01/2 floppy drive(s), it would > just be a matter of power supply for the floppies, and passive cabling > to interface the drives to the CPU/display? Yes. There's a board that goes under the wooden "top" that has a DB25 on one side, a Berg 40 on the other, and some wires and ferrite beads in between. It should be the identical board that's in the RX01 enclosure for the MINC-11 and/or WT78. The pinouts should be the same even if those use a different part number for the board. > I actually have the DB25-to-DC37 cable that goes between the disk unit and the DC37 connector on the CPU/display unit. Right. Well documented and easy enough to make, but good you have one. What I need to make (since I've never seen one) is the DC37-dual-DB25 cable to hang all the drives off of the DECmate I. 100% passive and just a few dozen solder joints. > If we move this along we may be asking for system software in the future, > I haven't looked at what may be readily available (i.e. bitsavers) as yet. I think mine came with WPS-8, but it should run OS-278. You just need to find a way to write RX02 floppies. I need to come up with a semi-portable PDP-11 rig with RX02s and 256K of RAM so I can cut floppies with vtserver (and probably some RL01 and RL02s while I'm at it) -ethan From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 17:47:11 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 17:47:11 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest: Last Chance for Rooms Message-ID: Hello all - I thought they did this weeks ago but the VCFMW hotel has informed me that they still have the special rooms pricing block open. It will close "for real this time" at the end of the day this Friday the 21st. A rather humbling number of rooms have been reserved so far - well beyond our expectations - but there is room for a few more. Follow the link at http://vcfmw.org for details. See you next weekend! -j From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 17:58:33 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 18:58:33 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: > That is a most interesting metric. I honestly hadn't considered that issue. > The key, I think, will be communication with them to understand which > manuals have sales going on, and which ones it would be advantageous to get > online because they have long dropped into historical myths. Thank you for > the advice. All of it. Yes, let the guys keep selling the higher demand documents - HP, Tek, Heathkit. Nearly all of those are super common anyway (and plus, you will run into problems posting Heath material). Focus on the weirder stuff - Krohn-Hite, Systron Donner, Clough-Brengle, Packard Instrument, Kay, and the like. In fact, due to your time constraints, I would not bother with the HP, Tek, or Heathkit manuals at all. They can wait for the next hoard. They are low value targets eating up your limited resources. And for some really-too-late advice: skip the boxes. Use gaylords. You will perhaps double your efficiency. Halfway through my Radio Research cleanout, I came across some gaylords, and they let me build them up and use them. Sooo much better. Manuals actually stack very nicely in them. -- Will From useddec at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 18:05:02 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 18:05:02 -0500 Subject: VT100 keyboard (source?) In-Reply-To: <1C3C8C4E-E00D-4ED3-9E7F-688AE9DFA660@cs.ubc.ca> References: <2B2545BB-31B4-4C69-A1C0-7F7DE305DE41@cs.ubc.ca> <1C3C8C4E-E00D-4ED3-9E7F-688AE9DFA660@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: The cable for the RX01/02 to the various interfaces is the BC05L-15. Either cable will work on them. Paul On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 4:48 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Aug-19, at 2:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Brent Hilpert > wrote: > >> Would anyone have a surplus-to-needs, or know of a source for, a VT100 > keyboard? > > > > I have terminals and keyboards, but I don't know that I have more > > working keyboards than working terminals. > > > >> This would actually be for the DECmateI/VT278 I mentioned on the list a > couple weeks ago, Rob and I are looking into doing something with it. > > > > Cool. I have one of those myself - just the basics - no addon cards, > > one set of floppies (room in the pedestal to add more), but I do have > > the "desk" upgrade (a metal clip that mounts where the keyboard tray > > normally goes, and a desk top and left-side leg so you have a > > workspace right in front of you rather than hunching up in front of > > the pedestal). > > > >> Alternatively, does anyone know if there is any degree of signalling > compatibility between the VT100 and VT220/320 keyboards? > > > > None. The VT100 keyboard is 3-wire: power, ground, and bidirectional > > data with a dumb hardware UART in the keyboard; the VT220/320 > > keyboards (LK201 et al.) have a 4-wire interface with power, ground, > > tx, and rx, and a sophisticated (by comparison) character protocol. > > > >> Those RX floppies in the pedestal on ebay mentioned a week > >> or two ago were just what was needed to complete it, > >> as they actually looked like they were part of a 278 > > > > Yes. Except for missing the "wood" top, that did look to me like a > > VT278 floppy pedestal. You don't "need" that if you have room for a > > side-by-side RX01 or RX02. That pedestal is just mounting and > > packaging (along with a passive DB25<->Berg 40 adapter). You could > > use the same floppy cabinet as a MINC-11 with (AFAIK) the same cables. > > I think there is only one DEC standard for running an RX drive over > > DB25. The only part that might matter is RX01 vs RX02 (I _think_ > > MINCs came with either by the end). Either way, the floppy drive guts > > are all the same across all the lines. You can just get them in 3 > > packages (rack-mount, tabletop, or pedestal). It's only about > > mounting (and 40-pin internal vs 25-pin external). > > Thanks, that was a question I had been intending to ask, but to confirm: > If one obtained (as appropriate) bare RX01/2 floppy drive(s), it would > just be a matter of power supply for the floppies, and passive cabling to > interface the drives to the CPU/display? > I actually have the DB25-to-DC37 cable that goes between the disk unit and > the DC37 connector on the CPU/display unit. > > If we move this along we may be asking for system software in the future, > I haven't looked at what may be readily available (i.e. bitsavers) as yet. > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Aug 19 18:47:27 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 18:47:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Aug 2015, Jason Scott wrote: > On Wed, 19 Aug 2015, William Donzelli wrote: > >> In closing, I might ask you to consider taking your sweet time getting >> this stuff online. There are still some manual dealers out there. Let >> them handle the decline of their business in whatever way they see fit. >> All of them know it is just a matter of time - probably five years or >> less. If you flood the net with the free scans, it might really fuck >> them up. I know some of them, and it is not unreasonable for me to >> think that they might get really annoyed by your efforts and burn their >> libraries just for spite. > > That is a most interesting metric. I honestly hadn't considered that > issue. The key, I think, will be communication with them to understand > which manuals have sales going on, and which ones it would be > advantageous to get online because they have long dropped into > historical myths. Thank you for the advice. All of it. I have to disagree strongly with Will on this. There are quite a few "PDF manual dealers" who honestly deserve to go out of business. Those "dealers" tend to fall into two categories: First, the large number who have built their PDF libraries from collecting everything they can find online. Quite often they'll take the work of hobbyists and simply watermark / lock (encrypt) the PDF file then offer it for sale. Some of these "dealers" have websites, while others just try to hock their wares on eBay and other ecommerce platforms. Second, those that threaten others when they find a PDF manual online which competes with their offerings. Some of them will file bogus DMCA takedowns even though they are not the copyright holder. Some of these "dealers" try to assert that because they scanned a manual (...or claim to have scanned it), that /they/ then hold the exclusive copyright to the PDF version of that manual. Copyright just doesn't work like that though...the original copyright holder /still/ holds the copyright, no matter if someone scans it to a PDF or makes a xerox copy. Under US copyright law, they cannot even make a "sweat of the brow" argument as that is not an accepted legal argument under US copyright law. 17 U.S. Code ? 103 - Subject matter of copyright: Compilations and derivative works "(b) The copyright in by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the preexisting material." https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/103 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweat_of_the_brow From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 18:50:09 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:50:09 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: > I have to disagree strongly with Will on this. There are quite a few "PDF > manual dealers" who honestly deserve to go out of business. Those "dealers" > tend to fall into two categories: It does not matter. You can not scan ashes. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 19:11:48 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:11:48 -0500 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: <55D51B44.30107@gmail.com> On 08/19/2015 06:50 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I have to disagree strongly with Will on this. There are quite a few "PDF >> manual dealers" who honestly deserve to go out of business. Those "dealers" >> tend to fall into two categories: > > It does not matter. You can not scan ashes. Well, you can, but the OCR process has one heck of a job - whether you use grayscale or not... From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 19:14:43 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 02:14:43 +0200 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: On 20 August 2015 at 01:50, William Donzelli wrote: > It does not matter. You can not scan ashes. Not yet. But the tech is getting closer... From automatically reassembling the Stasi's shredded files: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19344978 http://archive.wired.com/politics/security/magazine/16-02/ff_stasi?currentPage=all http://www.bstu.bund.de/EN/Archives/ReconstructionOfShreddedRecords/VirtualReconstruction/_node.html ... to reading burned 2000YO scrolls from Pompeii: http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-30888767 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Aug 19 19:30:24 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:30:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Aug 2015, William Donzelli wrote: > On Wed, 19 Aug 2015, Jason Scott wrote: > >> That is a most interesting metric. I honestly hadn't considered that >> issue. The key, I think, will be communication with them to understand >> which manuals have sales going on, and which ones it would be >> advantageous to get online because they have long dropped into >> historical myths. Thank you for the advice. All of it. > > Yes, let the guys keep selling the higher demand documents - HP, Tek, > Heathkit. Nearly all of those are super common anyway (and plus, you > will run into problems posting Heath material). Focus on the weirder > stuff - Krohn-Hite, Systron Donner, Clough-Brengle, Packard Instrument, > Kay, and the like. > > In fact, due to your time constraints, I would not bother with the HP, > Tek, or Heathkit manuals at all. They can wait for the next hoard. They > are low value targets eating up your limited resources. I strongly disagree, but I won't repeat my reasoning here since I already wrote some of my reasons why in another reply. As for Heathkit though... Danger, Will Robinson! While I mentioned legal threats and false DMCA takedowns, I didn't name any names, however since Heathkit was brought up, and I did quite a bit of research a number of years ago regarding Heathkit manuals, I will name names. Don Peterson, dba "Data Professionals" in Pleasanton, CA http://www.d8apro.com/ has for quite a number of years been sending questionable legal threats to anyone hosting Heathkit manuals (or selling copies of Heathkit manuals on eBay). Despite his "Big Scary Letter", he does not appear to actually hold the copyright to /most/ Heathkit manuals (if he holds the copyright to any...more recent discussion seems to indicate that he was only sold the right to reproduce a selection of manuals). ...this of course hasn't stopped hobbyists, and large numbers of Heathkit manuals are hosted outside of the US, but quite a number of scanned manuals seem to have been (temporarily) lost thanks to his efforts. I did just happen to notice this statement on http://www.d8apro.com/ so perhaps this mess is finally coming to an end? "Press Release April 2015 Data Professionals of Pleasanton California has been acquired by Heath Company and will focus on supporting vintage kits by providing parts, modification, and even 'Certified Pre-Owned' Heathkits for sale. Please watch our site for future developments." Links: Tubular Electronics: The Heathkit Copyright Question ? More Silly Claims http://tubularelectronics.com/?p=493 Old Electronics Kit Manuals Forced Offline Thanks To Copyright https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20081215/0106043118.shtml Heathkit Manuals: Should We Do Anything? http://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=137298 Some jerk is squelching Heathkit schematics http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/some-jerk-is-squelching-heathkit-schematics/ Heathkit Manual Copyright Challenged http://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/heathkit-manual-copyright-challenged.373390/ Tubular Electronics: Vintage Books http://tubularelectronics.com/?page_id=64 pestingers.net: Heathkit Manuals http://www.pestingers.net/Pages_images/Heathkit/Heathkit_manuals.htm From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Aug 19 19:54:08 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:54:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Free manuals (was: Re: Manuals Plus preservation efforts update) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just heard from Becky this afternoon (I've been in regular contact with her) and she has said that anything left is now up for grabs. This is part of what she wrote me today: "If you know of anyone that wants to come here & help themselves over the next two days they are welcome. (Only if you weed the ones that want to meet us with 2x4's) Please have them contact me through this email. I do not particularly want them to just show up." Becky's email address is: sales at manualsplus.com Given how busy she has been, I suspect email is much better than trying to reach her via phone. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Aug 19 20:02:32 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 21:02:32 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: > On Aug 19, 2015, at 7:47 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > > ... > Second, those that threaten others when they find a PDF manual online which competes with their offerings. Some of them will file bogus DMCA takedowns even though they are not the copyright holder. Some of these "dealers" try to assert that because they scanned a manual (...or claim to have scanned it), that /they/ then hold the exclusive copyright to the PDF version of that manual. Reminds me of a guy who sold US military aircraft flight manual scans, with his "copyright" notice on every page. Never mind that such things are in the public domain by law. > Copyright just doesn't work like that though...the original copyright holder /still/ holds the copyright, no matter if someone scans it to a PDF or makes a xerox copy. Under US copyright law, they cannot even make a "sweat of the brow" argument as that is not an accepted legal argument under US copyright law. Correct, that was settled decades ago. There is also the possibility that the original document may be in the public domain, either because no claim of copyright was made originally and publication was before copyright became automatic (1978) or because copyright applied originally but was not renewed when it came up for renewal. For example, I have a Linotype typecasting handbook from around 1940; it's in the public domain because its copyright was due for renewal in 1958 and a search of the records shows that no renewal was done. Wikipedia has a lot of information on this because they are quite picky about copyright, so they have an excellent database of all the relevant rules (not just US ones but other countries as well). paul From ethan at 757.org Wed Aug 19 21:00:41 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 22:00:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: Years ago I needed a HP service manual for a plotter I was trying to repair that I owned. HP of course wouldn't let me have it, so I had to buy a PDF copy from someone on eBay. I ended up removing the password and posting it on my website. I think it's been up there for 10+ years now with tons of downloads. I wish companies like Sony would allow access to their repair materials. :-( The more of it turned free, the better. Sorry it's not our fault the internet has made manual selling irrelevant like public libraries. -- Ethan O'Toole From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Aug 19 22:00:30 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 20:00:30 -0700 Subject: HP 5480A, or, obscure HP instruments / was Re: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: <936263F3-EBD5-4258-8E34-5444A61619CA@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Aug-19, at 3:58 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, let the guys keep selling the higher demand documents - HP, Tek, > Heathkit. Nearly all of those are super common anyway > . . . > In fact, due to your time constraints, I would not bother with the HP, > Tek, or Heathkit manuals at all > . . . Not to disagree or contradict you, but I have to mention what may be an exception to that in the case of one HP instrument: I have an HP 5480A "Digital Signal Analyser" from ca. 1968. This instrument might be the first DSO (Digital Sampling Oscilloscope), although as intended it's a little more more than a DSO in that it does averaging over repetitions of the signal to take out noise. It also has a couple of other modes to collect and plot frequency histograms and such. It's limited to 50KHz bandwidth given it's era, but it comprises input amps, ADC, 1K*24bits of core memory, ALU, a couple of DACs, CRT display, timebase, and a hardwired control system. It's an unusual and interesting instrument for it's time and I've kept it around (I acquired it 12 years ago) as another early example of the transition from the analog world to the digital world. It would have been phenomenally expensive in its day, and targeted at a limited and specialised market, so I doubt the production was very high. The operating manual has turned up on the web recently (hparchive.com, I couldn't find anything when I first acquired it), which has been most useful to just figuring out what it does and how to use it. It seems to have some intermittent fault in the acquisition/capture control however. I've reverse engineered maybe a third of it, but the remainder is still a large number of SSI TTL ICs and a whack of wiring, and I'd be happy to see a service manual show up instead of doing the remaining two thirds. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 22:08:53 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 23:08:53 -0400 Subject: HP 5480A, or, obscure HP instruments / was Re: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <936263F3-EBD5-4258-8E34-5444A61619CA@cs.ubc.ca> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <936263F3-EBD5-4258-8E34-5444A61619CA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Not to disagree or contradict you, but I have to mention what may be an exception to that in the case of one HP instrument: There are always exceptions. Anyway, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-HP-Keysight-05480-90013-5480A-5480B-Service-Manual-/361296424349 Is that a different instrument? Did HP/Agilent reuse numbers? -- Will From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 19 22:24:56 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 20:24:56 -0700 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: <55D40667.5080808@sydex.com> References: , , <55D40667.5080808@sydex.com> Message-ID: As a general rule, you should not write to a DD disk with a HD drive. It does not erase the full width of the track. You should only write to DD from a 360K type drive. If you must write using an HD drive, it is recommended that you first completely erase the disk with an external magnetic media eraser. Then when formatting, make sure you select the option to format as a 360K. It still may not read well on a 360K drive but that is life. Dwight > Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:30:31 -0700 > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write > > On 08/18/2015 09:05 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > > > > > > I have connected a 1.2M 5.25" floppy to my computer. After a bit of > > jumper learning and setting, it's recognized and reads my old DD and > > HD floppies fine. But for the life of me I cannot write to it. Not > > under DOS, Win98, or WindowsXP. Which all read fine. > > Make sure that "WRITE GATE" goes low (use a logic probe) on pin 24 of > the drive while you do your write. If so, your floppy write circuitry > has a problem. I.e., it's not the cable. > > --Chuck > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 19 22:37:02 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 20:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > Reminds me of a guy who sold US military aircraft flight manual scans, > with his "copyright" notice on every page. Never mind that such things > are in the public domain by law. The ORIGINAL is in the public domain, and he would have no rights to restrict anybody else from scanning and distributing the original. HOWEVER, even the flimsiest claims of enhancement could enable a copyright claim for a "derivative work", and protect copies of HIS scans. Project Gutenberg ran into that in their early days. They thought that they could scan modern printings of public domain literature, and distribute those as images. But, although the WORDS are public domain, by dint of their typography, the modern printers have claim to those images. Whether you could OCR a modern printing to get back to the original [public domain] text now might run afoul of DMCA, but not any rational copyright law. Derivative work copyright will, of course, not stand up if the original was copyrighted and original copyright holder makes a claim of infringement. >> Copyright just doesn't work like that though...the original copyright >> holder /still/ holds the copyright, no matter if someone scans it to a >> PDF or makes a xerox copy. Under US copyright law, they cannot even >> make a "sweat of the brow" argument as that is not an accepted legal >> argument under US copyright law. > > Correct, that was settled decades ago. There is also the possibility > that the original document may be in the public domain, either because > no claim of copyright was made originally and publication was before > copyright became automatic (1978) or because copyright applied > originally but was not renewed when it came up for renewal. For > example, I have a Linotype typecasting handbook from around 1940; it's > in the public domain because its copyright was due for renewal in 1958 > and a search of the records shows that no renewal was done. and, of course, there are those who claim "abandonware" as if it were a legal process. "I couldn't find the author" (not in top 5 hits on Google?), "therefore it is no longer subject to copyright". Expiration now takes a long time. Walnut Creek CD-ROM had to recall a bunch of discs, when they found out that Edgar Allen Poe's estate still had a valid copyright claim to some works. There have even been incidents where people have altered/removed copyright notices in order to try to claim that an object was public domain based on their having received a copy without [surviving] copyright notice. > Wikipedia has a lot of information on this because they are quite picky > about copyright, so they have an excellent database of all the relevant > rules (not just US ones but other countries as well). And there are arguments to this day about just how retroactive the Berne Convention is/was/should be. It relaxed the requirements on copyright notices. One of the aspects that Intel lost in the Intel V NEC trials had to do with procedural issues on copyright NOTICES. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 19 22:40:50 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 20:40:50 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I think the main issue is that TTL is usually a weak pullup and a hard pulldown. RS 232 levels are equal up and down. Putting it on the RS232 lines could even improve signal quality because the signal is usually poorly terminated, causing reflections. The recommended lengths and Baud rates are intended to account for this. Usually the line is lower impedance than the input termination, requiring the source to absorb the reflected signal. This is why 422/485 came to be. The impedance of the loads better match that of the termination. Dwight > Subject: Re: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? > From: nf6x at nf6x.net > Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:27:19 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Those little RS232 testers with LEDs built into a double DB25 connector box are usually just made of LEDs and resistors connected to each signal line. They can load signals enough to cause problems at high speeds, with weak drivers, or with long cables, but usually they don't cause problems. If you're concerned, you could always include jumpers or switches to disconnect the LEDs when they're not needed. > > Of course, buffering the TTL signals eliminate any such problems. But on the other hand, using two LEDs connected with opposite polarities on each RS232 level signal lets your discriminate between driven positive, driven negative, and open. That can come in handy when debugging things where the other end may or may not be driving properly, or may be mis-wired. > > For an example, feel free to take a look at this little modular jack RS232 tester that I made: > > https://github.com/NF6X/YostTester/blob/master/YostTester.pdf > > The red/green LED pairs show whether each line is high, low or open. Resistor values may vary depending on the LEDs that you choose. > > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Aug 19 22:52:24 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 22:52:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Aug 2015, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 19 Aug 2015, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Yes, let the guys keep selling the higher demand documents - HP, Tek, >> Heathkit. Nearly all of those are super common anyway (and plus, you will >> run into problems posting Heath material). Focus on the weirder stuff - >> Krohn-Hite, Systron Donner, Clough-Brengle, Packard Instrument, Kay, and >> the like. >> >> In fact, due to your time constraints, I would not bother with the HP, Tek, >> or Heathkit manuals at all. They can wait for the next hoard. They are low >> value targets eating up your limited resources. > > I strongly disagree, but I won't repeat my reasoning here since I already > wrote some of my reasons why in another reply. > > As for Heathkit though... Danger, Will Robinson! > > While I mentioned legal threats and false DMCA takedowns, I didn't name any > names, however since Heathkit was brought up, and I did quite a bit of > research a number of years ago regarding Heathkit manuals, I will name names. > > Don Peterson, dba "Data Professionals" in Pleasanton, CA > http://www.d8apro.com/ has for quite a number of years been sending > questionable legal threats to anyone hosting Heathkit manuals (or selling > copies of Heathkit manuals on eBay). Despite his "Big Scary Letter", he does > not appear to actually hold the copyright to /most/ Heathkit manuals (if he > holds the copyright to any...more recent discussion seems to indicate that he > was only sold the right to reproduce a selection of manuals). ...this of > course hasn't stopped hobbyists, and large numbers of Heathkit manuals are > hosted outside of the US, but quite a number of scanned manuals seem to have > been (temporarily) lost thanks to his efforts. > > I did just happen to notice this statement on http://www.d8apro.com/ so > perhaps this mess is finally coming to an end? > > "Press Release April 2015 Data Professionals of Pleasanton California has > been acquired by Heath Company and will focus on supporting vintage kits by > providing parts, modification, and even 'Certified Pre-Owned' Heathkits for > sale. Please watch our site for future developments." I just found this on https://www.heathkit.com/heathkit-faq.html which confirms that despite his Big Scary Letters and legal threats, Don Peterson -did not- hold the copyrights to Heathkit manuals: Q. I read on the Internet that someone else owns the copyrights to Heathkit manuals. A. No, not correct. Heathkit has in the past given a contractual license to certain specific parties granting a limited right to reprint and sell paper copies of specific Heathkit manuals, to better serve valued Heathkit customers on those special occasions when you spill coffee on your original kit manual. Such reprinting agreements are designed to outsource Heathkit's reprinting operations to small companies who can provide replacement manuals cost-effectively but do not convey Heathkit's intellectual property, only permission to reprint authorized paper photocopies. All Heathkit copyrights remain with Heathkit. Q. So Heath Company owns all Heathkit copyrights? A. Yes. All Heathkit copyrights, and all Heathkit intellectual property, are property of Heath Company. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 19 23:04:07 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 21:04:07 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <55D551B7.60504@sydex.com> On 08/19/2015 08:40 PM, dwight wrote: > I think the main issue is that TTL is usually a weak pullup and a > hard pulldown. RS 232 levels are equal up and down. Putting it on the > RS232 lines could even improve signal quality because the signal is > usually poorly terminated, causing reflections. The recommended > lengths and Baud rates are intended to account for this. Usually the > line is lower impedance than the input termination, requiring the > source to absorb the reflected signal. This is why 422/485 came to > be. The impedance of the loads better match that of the termination. My setup with a DM232A doing the level translation lights up the LEDs in one of those inline LED line monitors just fine without any apparent signal degradation. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 19 23:10:26 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 21:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: References: , , <55D40667.5080808@sydex.com> Message-ID: Just in case anybody was unaware, . . . VERIFY is NOT a suitable test in this situation. Most beginners assume that VERIFY will re-read the track, and determine whether the write wrote the correct content. IT DOES NOT. VERIFY checks the sector headers and CRCs, and determines whether there is a valid sector or track there, NOT whether the content within the track is what you wanted. In what this particular case appears to be, if the WRITE cricuitry in the drive fails, the computer may state that it wrote to the drive without error, and that VERIFY was successful! But, if the WRITE circuitry fails, the write may fail, without producing any errors (FDC WRITE error codes include seeing WRITE-PROTECT, and a few having to do with not finding the desired sector). Then, VERIFY looks at the same-old content, and declares that Yes, the sector or track is a valid one. What was on the disk before, is what is still on it. We had this with a couple of TRS80 drives. We also had some fun when the purchasing department gave us HD disks! (for use in TRS80 model 1 SD) They would sometimes FORMAT, WRITE, READ, and then minutes later, be blank again. The purchasing agent was in bed with somebody peddling RoyType, and kept substituting those for whatever we ordered. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 19 23:41:00 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 04:41:00 +0000 Subject: VT100 keyboard (source?) In-Reply-To: <2B2545BB-31B4-4C69-A1C0-7F7DE305DE41@cs.ubc.ca> References: <2B2545BB-31B4-4C69-A1C0-7F7DE305DE41@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > > Alternatively, does anyone know if there is any degree of signalling compatibility > between the VT100 and VT220/320 keyboards? I am sure there is no compatibility. The VT220, etc keyboard (LK201) interface is a 9600 baud asynchronous serial port. The VT100 keyboard has a single bidirectional data line, which something tells me carries clock and data. It would of course be possible to make an interface between them, or to make a VT100 compatible keyboard from scratch (schematics are in the VT100 printset and the keyboard is all standard ICs, including one of those dumb 40 pin UARTs). But it's not just a cable adapter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 19 23:47:53 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 04:47:53 +0000 Subject: VT100 keyboard (source?) In-Reply-To: <1C3C8C4E-E00D-4ED3-9E7F-688AE9DFA660@cs.ubc.ca> References: <2B2545BB-31B4-4C69-A1C0-7F7DE305DE41@cs.ubc.ca> , <1C3C8C4E-E00D-4ED3-9E7F-688AE9DFA660@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > > Thanks, that was a question I had been intending to ask, but to confirm: > If one obtained (as appropriate) bare RX01/2 floppy drive(s), it would just be a > matter of power supply for the floppies, and passive cabling to interface the drives > to the CPU/display? Depends on what you mean by 'bare floppy drives'. An RX01/RX02 (all versions, rackmount, tabletop, etc) contains a pair of totally bare drives (no electronics at all), a PSU, and 2 PCBs. One is essentially the stuff you would expect to find on floppy drives (read/write, stepper drivers etc), the other is a microcoded controller (TTL in the RX01, AM2900 in the RX02). The host interface is a custom serial one, The rackmount units use a 40 wire Berg cable to link to the bus interface in the PDP8/PDP11. In the tabletop unit (and I assume the pedestal, but I have never seen one) there is a little PCB with a Berg plug and a DB25 connector that links to the controller board. It is just the connectors, no electronics. It route the signals to pins on the DB25. So if you got a complete rackmount RX01/RX02 you could make up a special cable to link it to the DECMate. I did the reverse to link a tabletop unit to a RX8E. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 20 00:09:51 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 22:09:51 -0700 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: References: , , <55D40667.5080808@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D5611F.1090708@sydex.com> On 08/19/2015 09:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > We also had some fun when the purchasing department gave us HD disks! > (for use in TRS80 model 1 SD) They would sometimes FORMAT, WRITE, > READ, and then minutes later, be blank again. The purchasing agent > was in bed with somebody peddling RoyType, and kept substituting > those for whatever we ordered. About 4-5 years ago, I got a job of mostly Kaypro (DD) disks--about 400 of them. My heart sank when I saw about a box (10) full of DSHD (3M) floppies were in the lot. Much to my surprise, each of the 20+ year old HD floppies read without errors. So you never know... --Chuck From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Aug 20 00:32:12 2015 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 05:32:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <891789209.7476252.1440048732531.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> >> "Press Release April 2015 Data Professionals of Pleasanton California has >> been acquired by Heath Company and will focus on supporting vintage kits by >> providing parts, modification, and even 'Certified Pre-Owned' Heathkits for >> sale. Please watch our site for future developments." > >I just found this on https://www.heathkit.com/heathkit-faq.html which >confirms that despite his Big Scary Letters and legal threats, Don >Peterson -did not- hold the copyrights to Heathkit manuals: Although Data Professionals claims to have been acquired by Heathkit,I suspect Mr. Peterson simply bought what was left of them and folded hiscompany into it? The Heathkit FAQ claims the company is now located in California. The "Heathkit Store" on eBay linked from the heathkit.com webpage isactually trading under the name "datapro". --Bill From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 20 00:33:26 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 22:33:26 -0700 Subject: HP 5480A, or, obscure HP instruments / was Re: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <936263F3-EBD5-4258-8E34-5444A61619CA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <7794D73C-6270-489A-85C0-79051F64E251@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Aug-19, at 8:08 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Not to disagree or contradict you, but I have to mention what may be an exception to that in the case of one HP instrument: > > There are always exceptions. > > Anyway, > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-HP-Keysight-05480-90013-5480A-5480B-Service-Manual-/361296424349 > > Is that a different instrument? Did HP/Agilent reuse numbers? They apparently have reused the 5480 number for some printer (. . what else), the S/N ratio for searches can be poor. But yes, going by the part number, that should be it, in part - the service manual is at least two volumes, that's probably Vol II. I may have to chance it and see what I get. From scaron at umich.edu Wed Aug 19 14:28:15 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 15:28:15 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: At what point should historic preservationists be concerned with preserving someone else's obsolescent business model? Selling Xerox copies and burned CDs ... and that's hard cash out of the pocket of every hobbyist that could undoubtedly be better spent say, preserving actual equipment, than paying a "vig" on documentation. I know it's hard to make a living in the USA these days but I feel the suggestion is only going to hurt consumers and delay the inevitable anyway. Best, Sean On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 3:18 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 8/19/2015 11:52 AM, Jason Scott wrote: > >> In closing, I might ask you to consider taking your sweet time getting >>> this stuff online. There are still some manual dealers out there. Let >>> them handle the decline of their business in whatever way they see >>> fit. All of them know it is just a matter of time - probably five >>> years or less. If you flood the net with the free scans, it might >>> really fuck them up. I know some of them, and it is not unreasonable >>> for me to think that they might get really annoyed by your efforts and >>> burn their libraries just for spite. >>> >>> -- >>> Will >>> >> That is a most interesting metric. I honestly hadn't considered that >> issue. >> The key, I think, will be communication with them to understand which >> manuals have sales going on, and which ones it would be advantageous to >> get >> online because they have long dropped into historical myths. Thank you for >> the advice. All of it. >> > > A counterpoint to this might be to only scan manuals that are requested > and can't be found anywhere else (with any reasonable ease). > > - J. > > From dave at mitton.com Wed Aug 19 14:33:12 2015 From: dave at mitton.com (dave at mitton.com) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 15:33:12 -0400 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7fe5d050e3da7966f5e324c2783b68d7@mitton.com> From: Paul Koning >> ... > Ok. RSTS does indeed check for duplicate vectors. It also checks for > devices interrupting at too high a priority. > It?s pretty neat code. Back in 1977 or so when that came out, it may > have been one of the first autoconfig systems, at least in DEC. It > could probe almost all devices supported by RSTS (and some not > supported); the exceptions being card readers and the DT07 bus switch. > But it would do hairy things like the KMC-11 and DMC-11, for example. Wait? What was tricky about KMCs and DMCs? They used the same algorithms, I had it down cold at the time. Speaking of which, I have one copy of the KMC-11A Programmer's Guide if anyone needs it or would like to scan it? Dave (KMC-11 Tools Developer, RSX and VMS) PS: I used ALGOLW on MTS in one of my ECE classes because we could represent processor registers and operations using bit arrays/vectors and boolean operations. Thus building working models of systems in code. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Aug 19 15:14:03 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 16:14:03 -0400 Subject: Probs w. M3119 CXY08 MUX on VAX VMS 7.3 In-Reply-To: <7fe5d050e3da7966f5e324c2783b68d7@mitton.com> References: <7fe5d050e3da7966f5e324c2783b68d7@mitton.com> Message-ID: <59A3E0ED-D48C-4BF4-ABC1-44EE27506DAA@comcast.net> > On Aug 19, 2015, at 3:33 PM, dave at mitton.com wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > >>> ... > >> Ok. RSTS does indeed check for duplicate vectors. It also checks for devices interrupting at too high a priority. > >> It?s pretty neat code. Back in 1977 or so when that came out, it may have been one of the first autoconfig systems, at least in DEC. It could probe almost all devices supported by RSTS (and some not supported); the exceptions being card readers and the DT07 bus switch. But it would do hairy things like the KMC-11 and DMC-11, for example. > > Wait? What was tricky about KMCs and DMCs? They used the same algorithms, I had it down cold at the time. For the KMC, you?d have to understand enough about that machine?s microcode to see how to make it request an interrupt. For the DMC, in addition you have to find out how to get that device to execute a KMC instruction handed to it in a CSR ? something that wasn?t all that obvious though it can be deduced from the manuals if you work at it. > Speaking of which, I have one copy of the KMC-11A Programmer's Guide if anyone needs it or would like to scan it? There are a couple on Bitsavers, but yours might be different from what is there. Worth a look. paul From scaron at umich.edu Wed Aug 19 19:13:21 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 20:13:21 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: I guess if philistines want to pillage themselves, that is their sad perogative ... but if releasing the entirety of Manuals Plus to the public domain will break them, maybe they don't really have anything all that unique after all? Best, Sean On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:50 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > I have to disagree strongly with Will on this. There are quite a few "PDF > > manual dealers" who honestly deserve to go out of business. Those > "dealers" > > tend to fall into two categories: > > It does not matter. You can not scan ashes. > > -- > Will > From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com Wed Aug 19 19:48:04 2015 From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 20:48:04 -0400 Subject: Looking for a VAX 9000 Message-ID: Dear Group, My name is Sue Skonetski I am a vintage Digital, Compaq and HP person and now with VMS Software. It is not a typo I am really looking for a VAX 9000. Thanks, Sue Sue Skonetski VP of Customer Advocacy Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations From randall.kindig at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 19:23:22 2015 From: randall.kindig at gmail.com (Randall Kindig) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 20:23:22 -0400 Subject: [chiclassiccomp] VCF Midwest: Last Chance for Rooms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FYI, 2 double-beds only. No King beds. Randy > On Aug 19, 2015, at 6:47 PM, Jason T silent700 at gmail.com [chiclassiccomp] wrote: > > Hello all - I thought they did this weeks ago but the VCFMW hotel has > informed me that they still have the special rooms pricing block open. > It will close "for real this time" at the end of the day this Friday > the 21st. A rather humbling number of rooms have been reserved so far > - well beyond our expectations - but there is room for a few more. > Follow the link at http://vcfmw.org for details. > > See you next weekend! > > -j > > __._,_.___ > Posted by: Jason T > > Reply via web post ? Reply to sender? ? Reply to group? ? Start a New Topic ? Messages in this topic (1) > VISIT YOUR GROUP > ? Privacy ? Unsubscribe ? Terms of Use > . > > > __,_._,___ From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Aug 20 01:37:33 2015 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 01:37:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Aug 2015, Sean Caron wrote: > At what point should historic preservationists be concerned with preserving > someone else's obsolescent business model? At the point when those "obsolescent" businesses have lawyers that can put you in prison and/or take away everything you've ever worked for in the past and will work for in the future. Getting charged/sued is not exactly conducive to preservation either. You're either a threat to their business or not, and unless you have the financial and political connections to defend yourself in court it's in your best interest to know your place. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Aug 20 01:42:27 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 01:42:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Aug 2015, Sean Caron wrote: > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:50 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> On Wed, 19 Aug 2015, Tothwolf wrote: >> >>> I have to disagree strongly with Will on this. There are quite a few >>> "PDF manual dealers" who honestly deserve to go out of business. Those >>> "dealers" tend to fall into two categories: >> >> It does not matter. You can not scan ashes. > > I guess if philistines want to pillage themselves, that is their sad > perogative ... but if releasing the entirety of Manuals Plus to the > public domain will break them, maybe they don't really have anything all > that unique after all? According to Becky at Manuals Plus, these companies that have taken to selling people scans of manuals, combined with all the other freely available online manuals played a large part in them shutting down. Tektronix also issued a public statement giving permission for people to freely duplicate and distribute their older test equipment manuals not all that long ago, and that can't have helped either. The way I look at it, the companies that took to selling people PDF copies of manuals they've collected and then tried to lock up have had it coming, and some of them have been due such a blow for a long time now. I'm starting to look at this much like what happened with Netscape vs Microsoft Internet Explorer. Microsoft might have more or less killed off Netscape, but in releasing the source code which became Mozilla Firefox, they seriously damaged Microsoft's market share later. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 02:01:20 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 01:01:20 -0600 Subject: HP 5480A, or, obscure HP instruments / was Re: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <7794D73C-6270-489A-85C0-79051F64E251@cs.ubc.ca> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <936263F3-EBD5-4258-8E34-5444A61619CA@cs.ubc.ca> <7794D73C-6270-489A-85C0-79051F64E251@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 11:33 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > They apparently have reused the 5480 number for some printer (. . what else), the S/N ratio for searches can be poor. > But yes, going by the part number, that should be it, in part - the service manual is at least two volumes, that's probably Vol II. > I may have to chance it and see what I get. They reuse numbers for what I call "marketing numbers". For example, with a LaserJet 8150dn, the "8150" is a "marketing number" and not the actual HP product number, which was C4267A. As far as I know they've never actually reused a product number. I know that's no consolation when you search for "HP 5480" for that product, and get printers or supplies with that "marketing number" instead. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 20 02:04:52 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 00:04:52 -0700 Subject: Looking for a VAX 9000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2FBC65AA-9F66-4DB4-8C37-4B6A1E563303@aracnet.com> Welcome to Classiccmp Sue. For those that don't know her, she's legit. Unfortunately I don't know of anyone here with a VAX 9000. Zane > On Aug 19, 2015, at 5:48 PM, Sue Skonetski wrote: > > Dear Group, > > My name is Sue Skonetski I am a vintage Digital, Compaq and HP person and now with VMS Software. > > It is not a typo I am really looking for a VAX 9000. > > Thanks, > Sue > > > > Sue Skonetski > > VP of Customer Advocacy > Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com > Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 > Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 > > > > > > > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations > > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Aug 20 02:57:13 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:57:13 +0200 Subject: Looking for a VAX 9000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150820075713.GF11817@Update.UU.SE> Hi Sue I think there might be one in Hungary. And that ?kos "hamster" Varga might be the person to talk to: hamster at hampage.hu http://informatikatortenet.network.hu/kepek/szegeden_epul_az_uj_szamitogep_torteneti_muzeum/az_1989es_vax_9000_mainframe_egy_darabja I'm of course _very_ curious why you would be out looking for a 9000 in 2015. Whatever the reason is, I wish you good luck. Kind Regards, Pontus. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 08:48:04PM -0400, Sue Skonetski wrote: > Dear Group, > > My name is Sue Skonetski I am a vintage Digital, Compaq and HP person and now with VMS Software. > > It is not a typo I am really looking for a VAX 9000. > > Thanks, > Sue > > > > Sue Skonetski > > VP of Customer Advocacy > Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com > Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 > Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 > > > > > > > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations > > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 20 03:32:34 2015 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 01:32:34 -0700 Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Who picked this up - I may have some cash for the buyer to mate it with my new ASR33, on its way via crate and freight. Anybody got debug and startup tips on the 33, it probably has been siting for a while. (like who has the melted hammer replacements and such, tape and paper sources) I assume all the 8K, 4K BASICs are in public domain by now. The demo for the kids will be the 15 minutes of paper tape, followed by READY. Randy > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2015 01:44:06 -0500 > Subject: Re: Larry Niven's Altair > From: drlegendre at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Larry Niven's Altair?? > > That sounds an awful lot like Hitler's Canoe, if you know what I mean.. ;-) > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:32 PM, Jason Scott wrote: > > > Already removed. > > > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:14 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > An Altair 8800 that once belonged to Larry Niven is up for auction. > > > > > > Larry Niven has long been a member of the Los Angeles Science Fantasy > > > Society (www.lasfs.org). This group has existed since 1934 and was the > > > starting point for many science fiction and fantasy authors. Larry Niven > > is > > > one of them. This computer was purchased by him, but mainly used by his > > > wife. In time, she got a newer computer and this one was made the club > > > computer. It served in that capacity for many years until it too was > > > replaced and was taken in by another club member who didn't want to see > > it > > > parted out or thrown away. Fast-forward to 2008. I was contacted by that > > > other club member to liquidate his collection. We went to Larry Niven's > > > house whereupon he autographed this computer on the lid and the rear. > > > > > > I don't know if the drive unit was used by the Nivens with this computer, > > > but it matches and is from the same collection. > > > > > > I also don't know where the client went. I haven't heard from him in > > > years. > > > > > > You can see pictures in high resolution at > > > > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582 at N02/sets/72157653950476154/with/19938469936/ > > > > > > The auction is here (will be live July 25 at 3pm pacific) > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/231632418798 > > > > > > > > > -- > > > David Griffith > > > dave at 661.org > > > > > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > > > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > > A: Top-posting. > > > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 20 06:42:30 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 11:42:30 +0000 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> , Message-ID: > > I guess if philistines want to pillage themselves, that is their sad > perogative ... but if releasing the entirety of Manuals Plus to the public > domain will break them, maybe they don't really have anything all that > unique after all? Also, if you are dealing with somebody so childish that they would destroy their manuals just because somebody has set up in competition to them (which after all is all a free download service is), then when the inevitable happens and they do go bankrupt (with or without the stuff from Manuals Plus going on line) do you really think they will hand their stock over to hobbyists (who they might feel contributed to their downfall anyway)? -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 07:06:07 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:06:07 -0400 Subject: HP 5480A, or, obscure HP instruments / was Re: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <936263F3-EBD5-4258-8E34-5444A61619CA@cs.ubc.ca> <7794D73C-6270-489A-85C0-79051F64E251@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > They reuse numbers for what I call "marketing numbers". For example, > with a LaserJet 8150dn, the "8150" is a "marketing number" and not the > actual HP product number, which was C4267A. As far as I know they've > never actually reused a product number. The same occurs with IBM type numbers and feature numbers. IBM generally does a good job making the distinction, but resellers do not. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 20 07:11:20 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 12:11:20 +0000 Subject: HP 5480A, or, obscure HP instruments / was Re: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <936263F3-EBD5-4258-8E34-5444A61619CA@cs.ubc.ca> <7794D73C-6270-489A-85C0-79051F64E251@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: > They reuse numbers for what I call "marketing numbers". For example, > with a LaserJet 8150dn, the "8150" is a "marketing number" and not the > actual HP product number, which was C4267A. As far as I know they've > never actually reused a product number. > > I know that's no consolation when you search for "HP 5480" for that > product, and get printers or supplies with that "marketing number" > instead. I get irritated when I search for HP9100 (meaning the first desktop scientific calculator thing) and get hits for some modern-ish printer/scanner. Admittedly that is a 9100C (the calculators were 9100A and 9100B), but... I seem to remember that there are at least 5 different HP10 calculators : HP9810 (which was called the 'Model 10 Calculator') HP10 (or HP10A) : A simple handheld adding machine with printer HP10C : The simplest of the 'Voyager' series. Scientific, programable HP10B : A simple financial machine HP10B-II : An upgraded HP10B -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 07:28:58 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:28:58 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: > I guess if philistines want to pillage themselves, that is their sad > perogative ... but if releasing the entirety of Manuals Plus to the public > domain will break them, maybe they don't really have anything all that > unique after all? You are missing the point. They may view releasing the entire Manuals Plus archive for free as a threat, and eventual cause of acceleration, of their downfall. What business model they follow does not matter. When they are out of business, and their library is essentially worthless, some will likely not be as generous as Manuals Plus and light up the burn barrel. And maybe what gets burned are things that Manuals Plus never had, like obscure military test set manuals or oddball communications radio service manuals, because many manual guys are not as focussed as Manual Plus. I posted to warn Jason to tread lightly. There are some politics involved here that if played right, ends up in more information getting saved in the long run. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 07:38:09 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:38:09 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: > The way I look at it, the companies that took to selling people PDF copies > of manuals they've collected and then tried to lock up have had it coming, > and some of them have been due such a blow for a long time now. What about all the guys that play it straight? There are indeed quite a lot of manual guys that hunt for the manuals themselves and do the scanning themselves, and never steal scans from other sources. What about them? They are in the same boat. -- Will From kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com Thu Aug 20 07:49:44 2015 From: kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com (Kevin Anderson) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 05:49:44 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue Message-ID: <1440074984.9066.YahooMailBasic@web163105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Wow, I have just looked at the manuals collection at the Internet Archive site. I honestly can say I don't like it, but I will say it is because this is not how my mind works in organizing stuff. I am immediately turned off by the tiling of 'cards" on the screen and the categorizing of collections. I know it more closely matches tablet apps and how they seemed to be designed, but I can also say, although I am the user of a tablet, I am not always happy with that approach. Even switching to the list view within IA didn't help much. I think it is great that Bitsavers material can be saved in more than one location, whether that be identical mirrors on multiple servers or with material copied into another environment. The point being the access to material and minimizing any risk of it all disappearing at once. But I agree that correct attribution of where material comes from is also very important. And multiple interfaces to how to search and find information can be fine to, as we all think differently. I just happen to prefer collapsible trees, textual lists, and drill-down methods more than I do other newer visual methods. My previous experience with Internet Archives has been mainly looking for old videos from the 1940s, 50s, and 60s through primarily the Prelinger archive, plus some texts and books that I found through Google and other search engines, and in using the Wayback machine. Seeing this new interface to the Internet Archives made it clear that I haven't checked IA since they apparently redid this interface, and all I can't say is I don't like it, and clearly if I can't find the item I need from IA through a Google search, then I won't be trying to find it directly from Internet Archives. The interface used at the Internet Archive is not Jason's fault. And certainly not so if the interface changed after Jason had already started his project. But I also feel that this collection at Internet Archive didn't necessarily help in useful ways to archive the older computer stuff, at least not that I can see from this initial review. Or if the collection is still good, the web interface is hindering a proper appreciation of that material and access to it. It also doesn't help that modern implementations of web content is all database driven (which the Internet Archive is one such site), which on the surface ought to be great, but in reality isn't when one no longer has as much control over the levels and depths of web pages in the same way as direct folders on a file server. The more flat and eclectic nature of today's web pages, with the expectation that one will "leap" all over the place within a largely flat structure, possibly employing filters to limit choices, is much less useful in this case for archiving and organizing the material in question than say hierarchical tree structures. At least in my opinion.... Kevin Anderson Dubuque, Iowa From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Aug 20 08:12:59 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:12:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Clearpoint DCME/Q4E configuration Message-ID: <20150820131259.310BA18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist >> Yes, and if you plug one of their PMI memory boards into a Q/Q >> backplane, it will emit magic smoke, too! :-) > I don't remember if I've ever tried that Don't! :-) As the MSV11-J manual puts it, "NOTE: Insertion of the MSV11-J in a Q-Q backplane may damage other components or the memory itself. The PMI bussing on the MSV11-J's CD connectors is not compatible with the +12V bussing on the Q-Q backplane." > but I can believe that some jumpers would need to be moved around for a > Q-Q slot. ... No jumpers moved. There are no jumpers to configure an MSV11-J for Q/Q slots. (It's only got 4 jumpers total, two of which are factory config; the others are battery backup power.) > By CRC, I guess you mean ECC. Yup, sorry, not completely awake when I typed that, I guess! :-) > And with 37 bits, I think it should have ECC. ECC depends on the CSR > address set correctly. But I could be wrong as well. I think it needs more than 5 bits, for 32. The MSV11-J uses 6 bits, for 16. >> However, when I plugged the other one in - nada. No response at all; >> the boot PROM bitched about 'no memory at 0'. So I'm not sure _what_ >> that configuration is for. > Would sound like it was configured for a non-zero start address maybe? I did wonder that, but why would anyone configure a 4MB card for a non-zero start address? Anyway, I have yet to investigate this jumper configuration more extensively - later. > But if you tried with the switches/jumpers the same as on the board > working then it sounds like it would just be broken. No, that board (mostly, except for the "Memory CSR" error) worked with the jumpers in the _PMI_ configuration. Although I suppose some of the circuitry for use in the non-PMI config could be broken, but I think not. (More below.) >> The boot PROM was complaining about "Memory CSR Error" .. _but_ the >> memory was shown (by the boot PROM 'map' command) as PMI, and my own >> memory-test program showed it was all working OK. > And then the cards also have a CSR register or two, which is used for > various things. And they are expected to be at specific addresses. > ... > If you have a memory starting at address 0, there should be a CSR at a > specific address as well So I did some experiments, with very interesting results. I took the card that got the "Memory CSR Error", plugged it in, and ran a 'find all device registers' program in the system with it in. It showed a single memory CSR, at 172100. I then plugged in the card that _does_ pass the startup test, and it also had a single register, at that same location. So I guess it must be something about the way that register operates, that is different between the two cards. Which is possible; as I mentioned, there are a few programmable chips which are different revs. (And one large custom chip, which _seems_ to be a different rev.) Oddly enough, if I operate that 'broken' card in QBUS mode (after the CPU), not PMI mode (before), it _does_ pass the built-in self-test!!! Which argues that its failure to operate in QBUS mode, with the non-PMI jumper settings, is not because the hardware to operate in QBUS mode is broken. So I have no idea what the other set of jumper settings is for! Blast, I sure wish we had documentation for these things! Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Aug 20 08:27:26 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:27:26 -0400 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> > On Aug 19, 2015, at 11:40 PM, dwight wrote: > > I think the main issue is that TTL is usually a weak pullup and a hard > pulldown. > RS 232 levels are equal up and down. That depends. Open collector outputs, yes, but those are the less common case. Totem pole outputs have comparable drive strength in both directions, that's precisely their purpose (to provide symmetric rise/fall times when driving capacitive loads). > Putting it on the RS232 lines could even improve signal quality because > the signal is usually poorly terminated, causing reflections. A consideration with RS232 is that the signals swing to either side of 0, so if you use an LED referenced to 0, it either needs a series diode or a sufficiently high reverse voltage rating. And the driver voltage range spec for RS232 is quite loose; it might be just a couple of volts but it can be as high as 15 volts or so. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Aug 20 08:35:40 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:35:40 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: <2B8F0279-43D4-41F0-8561-1CCBEC9667F5@comcast.net> > On Aug 19, 2015, at 11:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote: >> Reminds me of a guy who sold US military aircraft flight manual scans, with his "copyright" notice on every page. Never mind that such things are in the public domain by law. > > The ORIGINAL is in the public domain, and he would have no rights to restrict anybody else from scanning and distributing the original. > HOWEVER, even the flimsiest claims of enhancement could enable a copyright claim for a "derivative work", and protect copies of HIS scans. Any sufficiently dishonest lawyer can make claims like that, and some do, but that doesn't make it a valid claim, and ones like that are not. First of all, a derivative work has to have a creative component; plain labor, even if time consuming, is not relevant. Second, derivative work copyright for the new author covers only the changes made by the new author; the part that is taken from the original is covered by the original copyright (if any). > > Project Gutenberg ran into that in their early days. They thought that they could scan modern printings of public domain literature, and distribute those as images. But, although the WORDS are public domain, by dint of their typography, the modern printers have claim to those images. They might pretend this, but they would be wrong. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Aug 20 08:39:00 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:39:00 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 19, 2015, at 3:28 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > > At what point should historic preservationists be concerned with preserving > someone else's obsolescent business model? Selling Xerox copies and burned > CDs ... and that's hard cash out of the pocket of every hobbyist that could > undoubtedly be better spent say, preserving actual equipment, than paying a > "vig" on documentation. I know it's hard to make a living in the USA these > days but I feel the suggestion is only going to hurt consumers and delay > the inevitable anyway. If you want to have a defensible claim that your personal property is your own, you have to likewise respect the claims of others to theirs. If someone sells property he owns, you have a choice: you can spend your money to buy it, or you can elect not to spend your money and not buy it. But you cannot argue that the seller's business is "obsolescent" and this is a reason to justify stealing his property. Nor can you argue, in a free market, that the selling price is a "vig" -- if you don't like the price, offer less, find another seller, or get in the business yourself. paul From julian at twinax.org Thu Aug 20 08:44:45 2015 From: julian at twinax.org (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:44:45 -0500 Subject: DECdatasystem 534 (11/34) and VT52 for sale at VCF Midwest 10 Message-ID: I will be selling my DECdatasystem 534 and VT52 at the show. Cabinet rack, 72x24x26".11/34a, 32kW of core and A/D+D/A cards. System runs fine and drops to a console prompt, and passes all the diags I've been able to throw at it. I've restored all the foam filters and the cabinet was pressure washed a couple of years ago so no funny smells or mold. I have no peripherals for it. The VT52 does not power on. I'm entertaining pre-show offers, so let me know privately if you are interested in either of these items. Julian From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Aug 20 08:59:45 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:59:45 +0200 Subject: MAINDEX-11 CZKMA Diagnostic? In-Reply-To: References: <55D475BB.6030900@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55D5DD51.6020802@update.uu.se> Don't these diagnostics only print messages out if the switch register is set in the "proper" way. And as the 11/23 do not have a switch register, most diagnostics added a software switch register that could be accessed by hitting some key. Have you looked in the PDP-11 Software Diagnostics Handbook? Johnny On 2015-08-19 21:13, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Thanks everyone! It's running right now, and seems to be passing, > however the parity error LED on the board is lit. > > The docs mentioned that ZKMA's messages (plus the source) would lead > me to a potential bad module, but it doesn't seem to be failing. > > VMJAB0 doesn't run at all on my system. It turns off the run light as > soon as it starts.That's why I was wanting to try the diagnostic > mentioned in the MSV-11 manual. > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-08-19 04:36, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>> >>> I'm again trying to debug my PDP-11/23, and I believe I'm having >>> trouble with my M8067-LB/MSV-11 memory. >>> >>> According to the manual, there is a diagnostic program called CZKMA >>> (for my 18-bit system), but I can't seem to find it. >>> >>> I have all of the xxdp images from AK6DN, but this one doesn't appear >>> to be on any of those. Some searching shows references to it and even >>> a (poorly) scanned source listing, but does anyone know if I can get >>> it on a TU58 image or another format? >> >> >> Others have already given pointers and help. I thought I should point out >> that when a diagnostic is called CZKMA, the actual filename in XXDP will not >> have the leading 'C', and in addition it will have two characters appended, >> which gives a version. >> >> So, the normal way to refer to the diagnostic CZKMA as a file in XXDP would >> be ZKMA?? >> >> Johnny >> > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 20 09:24:12 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:24:12 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <1440074984.9066.YahooMailBasic@web163105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1440074984.9066.YahooMailBasic@web163105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55D5E30C.5040708@bitsavers.org> On 8/20/15 5:49 AM, Kevin Anderson wrote: > I think it is great that Bitsavers material can be saved in more than one location, whether that be identical mirrors on multiple servers or with material copied into another environment. I completely disagree. Scott asked to 'mirror bitsavers' That is NOT what he did, and he is the ONLY person who has ever done this after asking for rsync access. Bitsavers looks the way it does for ONE reason, to make it trivial to mirror the hierarchy EXACTLY as it looks and to distribute the workload worldwide. Jay and I greatly appreciate the bandwidth that all of the mirrors provide. It is a dynamic document. Files get updated, some directories are split if they get too big. I have had one instance when I was asked to take down the contents of a directory, which I did. There are some quirks in the taxonomy, but they are that way to minimize the bandwidth impact of a wholesale reorganization on the rsync peers. What he has done is ripped off the content while NEVER agreeing to be one of the mirrors, freezing what he took and attempting to cluelessly make it 'accessable' burying it in something impossible for anyone ELSE to mirror. The files DON'T get fixed when I update them. There is no discussion about 'fixing' what he has done. The damage is already done. I have been torn about talking about this because it is a no-win situation. Pulling his access is pointless, you can just wget it. THAT is why I said he doesn't 'get it', and http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/3881 demonstrated that. From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 20 09:30:26 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:30:26 -0500 Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> On 8/20/2015 3:32 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: > Who picked this up - > > I may have some cash for the buyer to mate it with my new ASR33, on its way via crate and freight. > > Anybody got debug and startup tips on the 33, it probably has been siting for a while. > (like who has the melted hammer replacements and such, tape and paper sources) > > I assume all the 8K, 4K BASICs are in public domain by now. The demo for the kids will be the 15 minutes of paper tape, followed by READY. > > Randy > Bad assumption. Things that were actually registered even if there was no notice, or published with a copyright notice would still be protected under U.S. copyright. https://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm Has a nice understandable synopsis. However, they do seem to be readily available here and there. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 20 09:34:42 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:34:42 -0500 Subject: HP 5480A, or, obscure HP instruments / was Re: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <936263F3-EBD5-4258-8E34-5444A61619CA@cs.ubc.ca> <7794D73C-6270-489A-85C0-79051F64E251@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <55D5E582.5080804@charter.net> At least, under Google and eBay, one can add exclusionary terms: hp 9100 -printer -scanner Seems to do pretty well under Google. Under eBay I had to add a lot more exclusions, and ran out of room. JRJ On 8/20/2015 7:11 AM, tony duell wrote: > >> They reuse numbers for what I call "marketing numbers". For example, >> with a LaserJet 8150dn, the "8150" is a "marketing number" and not the >> actual HP product number, which was C4267A. As far as I know they've >> never actually reused a product number. >> >> I know that's no consolation when you search for "HP 5480" for that >> product, and get printers or supplies with that "marketing number" >> instead. > > I get irritated when I search for HP9100 (meaning the first desktop > scientific calculator thing) and get hits for some modern-ish > printer/scanner. Admittedly that is a 9100C (the calculators were > 9100A and 9100B), but... > > I seem to remember that there are at least 5 different HP10 calculators : > > HP9810 (which was called the 'Model 10 Calculator') > HP10 (or HP10A) : A simple handheld adding machine with printer > HP10C : The simplest of the 'Voyager' series. Scientific, programable > HP10B : A simple financial machine > HP10B-II : An upgraded HP10B > > -tony > From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 09:43:27 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:43:27 -0400 Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> Message-ID: Here is what I've put together over the years, at least get you started. http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/ On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > > On 8/20/2015 3:32 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: >> Who picked this up - >> >> I may have some cash for the buyer to mate it with my new ASR33, on its way via crate and freight. >> >> Anybody got debug and startup tips on the 33, it probably has been siting for a while. >> (like who has the melted hammer replacements and such, tape and paper sources) >> >> I assume all the 8K, 4K BASICs are in public domain by now. The demo for the kids will be the 15 minutes of paper tape, followed by READY. >> >> Randy >> > > Bad assumption. Things that were actually registered even if there was > no notice, or published with a copyright notice would still be protected > under U.S. copyright. > > https://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm > > Has a nice understandable synopsis. > > However, they do seem to be readily available here and there. > > JRJ -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Aug 20 09:47:34 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:47:34 -0400 Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> Message-ID: <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> > On Aug 20, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > > > On 8/20/2015 3:32 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: >> Who picked this up - >> >> I may have some cash for the buyer to mate it with my new ASR33, on its way via crate and freight. >> >> Anybody got debug and startup tips on the 33, it probably has been siting for a while. >> (like who has the melted hammer replacements and such, tape and paper sources) >> >> I assume all the 8K, 4K BASICs are in public domain by now. The demo for the kids will be the 15 minutes of paper tape, followed by READY. >> >> Randy >> > > Bad assumption. Things that were actually registered even if there was > no notice, or published with a copyright notice would still be protected > under U.S. copyright. Depending on when. If it was published without notice, the key question is whether publication occurred before Jan 1, 1978, or after. After, notice does not matter; before, lack of notice means no copyright. > > https://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm > > Has a nice understandable synopsis. Indeed. Wikipedia is also useful. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 10:20:26 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 11:20:26 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D5E30C.5040708@bitsavers.org> References: <1440074984.9066.YahooMailBasic@web163105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <55D5E30C.5040708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Whatever the motivation of the mirror operator, if you put it on the web it's public and control is lost. Not to worry - If your web site organizational structure is superior, over time people will figure it out and ignore those who are out-dated or less complete. "Content is King" Most of us are lucky to have worked even briefly at these old companies. I wonder what the founders of these companies would have thought about us in 2015. On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/20/15 5:49 AM, Kevin Anderson wrote: > >> I think it is great that Bitsavers material can be saved in more than one >> location, whether that be identical mirrors on multiple servers or with >> material copied into another environment. > > > I completely disagree. Scott asked to 'mirror bitsavers' > > That is NOT what he did, and he is the ONLY person who has ever done this > after asking for rsync access. > > Bitsavers looks the way it does for ONE reason, to make it trivial to mirror > the hierarchy EXACTLY as it looks and > to distribute the workload worldwide. Jay and I greatly appreciate the > bandwidth that all of the mirrors provide. > > It is a dynamic document. Files get updated, some directories are split if > they get too big. I have > had one instance when I was asked to take down the contents of a directory, > which I did. There are > some quirks in the taxonomy, but they are that way to minimize the bandwidth > impact of a wholesale > reorganization on the rsync peers. > > What he has done is ripped off the content while NEVER agreeing to be one of > the mirrors, freezing > what he took and attempting to cluelessly make it 'accessable' burying it in > something impossible for > anyone ELSE to mirror. The files DON'T get fixed when I update them. > > There is no discussion about 'fixing' what he has done. The damage is > already done. > > I have been torn about talking about this because it is a no-win situation. > Pulling his access is pointless, > you can just wget it. > > THAT is why I said he doesn't 'get it', and > http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/3881 demonstrated that. > > > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Aug 20 10:58:23 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:58:23 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Aug 20, 2015, at 06:27, Paul Koning wrote: > > Totem pole outputs have comparable drive strength in both directions, that's precisely their purpose (to provide symmetric rise/fall times when driving capacitive loads). That's true for CMOS outputs. TTL outputs pull down much more strongly than they pull up, which is why older designers are still in the habit of driving LEDs with active low outputs even though active high outputs work just fine with modern CMOS logic. Look at nearly any TTL datasheet, and note that VOL is much closer to ground than VOH is to VCC. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 20 11:13:36 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:13:36 +0000 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> References: , <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> Message-ID: > > A consideration with RS232 is that the signals swing to either side of 0, so if you use an LED > referenced to 0, it either needs a series diode or a sufficiently high reverse voltage rating. A diode in inverse parallel with the LED Is more normal when you want to run an LED off effectively an AC supply. In the case of RS232 signals it is common to use a red and a green LED in inverse parallel, either separate LEDs or one of the 2-wire bicolour LEDs which are precisely a pair of LEDs in inverse parallel. Most of the little RS232 terters are just that, I think with 3k series resistors for the LED pairs. -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Aug 20 11:54:51 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 12:54:51 -0400 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> > On Aug 20, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >> On Aug 20, 2015, at 06:27, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> Totem pole outputs have comparable drive strength in both directions, that's precisely their purpose (to provide symmetric rise/fall times when driving capacitive loads). > > That's true for CMOS outputs. TTL outputs pull down much more strongly than they pull up, which is why older designers are still in the habit of driving LEDs with active low outputs even though active high outputs work just fine with modern CMOS logic. Look at nearly any TTL datasheet, and note that VOL is much closer to ground than VOH is to VCC. Ok, but when you refer to "drive strength" I assumed you were talking about current, not voltage. By that measure totem pole outputs are pretty much symmetrical. palu From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Aug 20 12:11:55 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <201508201711.NAA21111@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Totem pole outputs have comparable drive strength in both directions, that$ >> That's true for CMOS outputs. TTL outputs pull down much more strongly than$ > Ok, but when you refer to "drive strength" I assumed you were talking about $ Maybe _rated_ current, but, even there, I don't think so (my TTL doc hasn't been unpacked yet, or I'd go check, but I'm fairly sure they are generally specced to sink more current to GND than source from Vcc). Certainly, look at the equivalent circuit for a TTL totem-pole output: there's a resistor in series with the top half, to Vcc, but to GND there's nothing but the E-C of a transistor. Or just take a chip you can afford to sacrifice :-), get it to drive an output low, connect it to Vcc, and observe that it fries the output; ground a driven-high output and notice that it does nothing much. But make sure it's real TTL first; as others have pointed out, this is not, in general, true of "TTL-compatible" CMOS circuits - the TTL compatability refers to input thresholds and Vcc and the like. This does have the arguable advantage that, if you accidentally wire two outputs together, it doesn't usually fry anything if they fight. I'm inclined to doubt that's the reason, though; it seems more likely to me that the resistor was put there to give warm fuzzies about ensuring nothing fries if the output transistors happen to both turn on for a split nanosecond as signals propagate through the circuit. But even that is pure speculation on my part. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Aug 20 12:23:21 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <201508201723.NAA00373@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > A consideration with RS232 is that the signals swing to either side of 0, so$ It's been a while since I read the spec, but I think it's -3 to -20 volts one way and +3 to +20 the other, with the -3 to +3 range deliberately left ambiguous. I think there are slew rate limits, too, but I don't recall what they are even approximately. Of course, serial lines are normally run over unshielded wires with a single shared signal ground, so, for noise tolerance, transmitters usually drive the outputs substantially beyond 3V either side of ground. (There are also short-circuit tolerance specs which mean you don't want your output impedance to be too low, either. I think it's something like, any pins or ccombinations of pins may be shorted to one another and/or any voltage or voltages from -20 to +20 indefinitely without damage.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From supervinx at libero.it Thu Aug 20 12:37:08 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 19:37:08 +0200 Subject: R: DECdatasystem 534 (11/34) and VT52 for sale at VCF Midwest 10 Message-ID: <9lfnrxjtxtafe6j3sd019hyr.1440092228030@email.android.com> Location? -------- Messaggio originale -------- Da: Julian Wolfe Data:20/08/2015 15:44 (GMT+01:00) A: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Oggetto: DECdatasystem 534 (11/34) and VT52 for sale at VCF Midwest 10 I will be selling my DECdatasystem 534 and VT52 at the show. Cabinet rack, 72x24x26".11/34a, 32kW of core and A/D+D/A cards. System runs fine and drops to a console prompt, and passes all the diags I've been able to throw at it. I've restored all the foam filters and the cabinet was pressure washed a couple of years ago so no funny smells or mold. I have no peripherals for it. The VT52 does not power on. I'm entertaining pre-show offers, so let me know privately if you are interested in either of these items. Julian From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 20 12:35:37 2015 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:35:37 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: <201508201711.NAA21111@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1440092137.66608.YahooMailBasic@web184703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> On Thu, 8/20/15, Mouse wrote: > Maybe _rated_ current, but, even there, I don't think so (my TTL > doc hasn't been unpacked yet, or I'd go check, but I'm fairly sure > they are generally specced to sink more current to GND > than source from Vcc). It so happens I have a TTL handbook to hand at the moment. From the 1985 TI TTL data book: Ioh Iol 7400 -0.4 16 74H00 -0.5 20 74LS00 -0.4 8 74S00 -1 20 all in mA. So as rated, TTL devices can sink a solid order of magnitude more current than they can source. BLS From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Aug 20 12:40:24 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:40:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > If someone sells property he owns, you have a choice: you can spend your mon$ True. Also irrelvant; those "selling" PDFs are not selling their property, and the ways in which those selling papers manuals are are not relevant to this discussion. Nor does the making or distribution of unauthorized copies constitute stealing. Copyright violation is not theft. (That doesn't make it OK. I just get so sick of people tossing around emotionally loaded words like "theft" and "stealing" when discussing copyright violation I feel it incumbent on me to point out that they are not accurate.) The PDF "sellers" are not selling their property; they are selling right-to-copy. The paper manual sellers _are_ selling their property, the physical artifacts, but the discussion has been about copyright, and they too are not selling their intellectual property, only the instantiation of a copy of it and the accompanying right to that copy. The ubiquity of this sort of confusion, and the logic-chopping necessary for it to make any kind of sense, are among the reasons I think intellectual property is a failed experiment. (That too neither justifies nor excuses ignoring intellectual property law, mind.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jason at textfiles.com Thu Aug 20 12:48:08 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:48:08 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D5E30C.5040708@bitsavers.org> References: <1440074984.9066.YahooMailBasic@web163105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <55D5E30C.5040708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > What he has done is ripped off the content while NEVER agreeing to be one > of the mirrors, freezing > what he took and attempting to cluelessly make it 'accessable' burying it > in something impossible for > anyone ELSE to mirror. The files DON'T get fixed when I update them. > The rest of this discussion deserves attention, but this particular statement is, I'm sad to say, a false characterization. I run the textfiles.com mirror, which is at http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers - I've been running that since day one of becoming a mirror, and it is an exact rsync'd mirror of bitsavers. The processing work done to put items over on the Internet Archive, which is a matter of discussion and debate, is done by probing this mirror. It is, I repeat, an exact mirroring of the bitsavers mirror, via rsync. This is even listed on the front of the bitsavers webpage! As textfiles.com, I've been mirroring bitsavers since before I joined archive.org in 2011. I'll answer the questions about the Internet Archive's presenting of bitsavers when I calm down, but I've definitely been a true mirror for about five years now. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 20 12:48:21 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> Message-ID: >>> I assume all the 8K, 4K BASICs are in public domain by now. The demo >>> for the kids will be the 15 minutes of paper tape, followed by READY. >> Bad assumption. Things that were actually registered even if there was >> no notice, or published with a copyright notice would still be protected >> under U.S. copyright. On Thu, 20 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > Depending on when. If it was published without notice, the key question > is whether publication occurred before Jan 1, 1978, or after. After, > notice does not matter; before, lack of notice means no copyright. >> https://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm >> Has a nice understandable synopsis. > Indeed. Wikipedia is also useful. But, Were the BASICs published without notice??!? There are certainly plenty of copies with the notice removed, and/or copied without the notice, but was the original publication "without notice"? And, of course, "there was no notice physically on it by the time that I got it" is NOT the same as "published without notice", nor is unauthorized republication without the notice. "...assume xxx is in public domain by now" is assuming an inaccurate short term of copyright - if it was properly copyrighted after 1963, then copyright would not be expired yet. (I'm not aware of any BASICs published before 1963) So, the only hope for something published in the last half century to be public domain now would be if it were explicitly placed in public domain, or were originally published without notice before 1978. I found it amusing that for registration of copyright, I was originally advised to include source code, but was permitted to provide a hex dump, instead. (circle where the notice is in it) Note: registration is NOT required for copyright, but it makes action against infringers substantially easier, such as ones who try a defense such as a copy that had had notice removed. (do some sort of checksum of title page!) Even then, action can be a very expensive process if a letter won't suffice. I'm not sure, but I've heard that registration can even protect if there was accidental failure to include notice in publication. Paul and I don't agree about whether Typography counts as "creative" for a "derivative work". A less disputable example would be illustrations. But certainly, a derivative work does not remove the CONTENT (without the typography) from public domain. Thus, Project Gutenberg had some problems with distributing images scanned from modern publishers, but text OCR'd from them is back to the original public domain content. From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Aug 20 12:53:35 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:53:35 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Aug 20, 2015, at 09:54 , Paul Koning wrote: > > Ok, but when you refer to "drive strength" I assumed you were talking about current, not voltage. By that measure totem pole outputs are pretty much symmetrical. Again, CMOS totem pole outputs are pretty much symmetrical, but TTL totem pole outputs aren't even close. Looking at a Fairchild 74LS04 datasheet, I see a 20x difference in recommended drive-high current (Ioh = 0.4mA) vs. recommended drive-low current (Iol = 8mA). And the voltages are correspondingly different, too: at rated drive current of 0.4mA, Voh = 2.7V (min) to 3.4V (typ) with a 5V supply, while Vol is 0.35V (typ) to 0.5V (max) at 8mA drive current. So that's > 1.6V drop from Vcc while sourcing a mere 0.4mA, vs. < 0.5V rise from GND while sinking 8mA. Totem pole outputs just mean that the output driver actively drives both up and down, with two stacked drive transistors. It does not imply that the drive strengths are even close to being equal, particularly when we're talking about TTL logic in a vintage computer. Incidentally, TTL inputs also present asymmetric loads for high vs. low inputs at about the same ratio (18x input current ratio in the 74LS04 example when driven at the input thresholds), and have asymmetrical input threshold voltages. So unloaded TTL output voltages aren't relevant if we assume that the output is driving a TTL input of the same logic family. Even if a TTL output appears to drive all the way up to Vcc with no load, it won't once it's driving a typical load. So you might think of those TTL totem pole drivers as being symmetrical when they're strictly driving TTL inputs of the same family, since the TTL inputs and TTL outputs are designed to work together. But they're very strongly asymmetrical when driving things other than TTL inputs, such as the LEDs in question here. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 20 13:00:17 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 11:00:17 -0700 Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> On 08/20/2015 10:48 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > So, the only hope for something published in the last half century to > be public domain now would be if it were explicitly placed in public > domain, or were originally published without notice before 1978. It used to be (and maybe still is) acceptable to submit a representative partial specimen of a work to claim copyright. For example, the solo violin part to the film score of "Schindler's List" might well qualify. But yeah, I'd hate to run up against BillG in a spat over appropriating his Altair BASIC. He could squash me like a bug with his legal resources. I recall that other outfits stealing his code was one of his big public gripes back in the pre-PC days. Better to ask first, no? I keep playing that old song, but "used with perimission" is a small price to pay, isn't it? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 20 13:09:14 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 11:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Aug 2015, Mouse wrote: > Copyright violation is not theft. (That doesn't make it OK. I just > get so sick of people tossing around emotionally loaded words like > "theft" and "stealing" when discussing copyright violation I feel it > incumbent on me to point out that they are not accurate.) So, "PIRACY" isn't accurate terminology? :-) From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Aug 20 13:21:34 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:21:34 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4DBF70B7-E9D8-4700-BF42-4813C16203E8@comcast.net> > On Aug 20, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> If someone sells property he owns, you have a choice: you can spend your mon$ > > True. Also irrelvant; those "selling" PDFs are not selling their > property, and the ways in which those selling papers manuals are are > not relevant to this discussion. Nor does the making or distribution > of unauthorized copies constitute stealing. > > Copyright violation is not theft. (That doesn't make it OK. I just > get so sick of people tossing around emotionally loaded words like > "theft" and "stealing" when discussing copyright violation I feel it > incumbent on me to point out that they are not accurate.) > > The PDF "sellers" are not selling their property; they are selling > right-to-copy. The paper manual sellers _are_ selling their property, > the physical artifacts, but the discussion has been about copyright, > and they too are not selling their intellectual property, only the > instantiation of a copy of it and the accompanying right to that copy. But in each case, the seller is selling something of value (an object or a right) in exchange for a consideration (such as money). Copyright infringement may not steal the object, but it certainly steals the consideration. paul From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 20 13:23:50 2015 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 11:23:50 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1440095030.97679.YahooMailBasic@web184703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> On Thu, 8/20/15, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 20 Aug 2015, Mouse wrote: > > Copyright violation is not theft.? (That doesn't make it OK.? I just > > get so sick of people tossing around emotionally loaded words like > > "theft" and "stealing" when discussing copyright violation I feel it > > incumbent on me to point out that they are not accurate.) > > So, "PIRACY" isn't accurate terminology????:-) Sure, if one is taking a physical copy without permission (with or without copyright protection) on the high seas. Otherwise, not so much... BLS From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 20 13:49:47 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:49:47 -0500 Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55D6214B.6070607@charter.net> On 8/20/2015 9:47 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Aug 20, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> >> >> >> On 8/20/2015 3:32 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: >>> Who picked this up - >>> >>> I may have some cash for the buyer to mate it with my new ASR33, on its way via crate and freight. >>> >>> Anybody got debug and startup tips on the 33, it probably has been siting for a while. >>> (like who has the melted hammer replacements and such, tape and paper sources) >>> >>> I assume all the 8K, 4K BASICs are in public domain by now. The demo for the kids will be the 15 minutes of paper tape, followed by READY. >>> >>> Randy >>> >> >> Bad assumption. Things that were actually registered even if there was >> no notice, or published with a copyright notice would still be protected >> under U.S. copyright. > > Depending on when. If it was published without notice, the key question is whether publication occurred before Jan 1, 1978, or after. After, notice does not matter; before, lack of notice means no copyright. Even before, if it was registered, then it would be covered, even if there was no notice. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 14:01:57 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:01:57 -0500 Subject: R: DECdatasystem 534 (11/34) and VT52 for sale at VCF Midwest 10 In-Reply-To: <9lfnrxjtxtafe6j3sd019hyr.1440092228030@email.android.com> References: <9lfnrxjtxtafe6j3sd019hyr.1440092228030@email.android.com> Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2015 12:37 PM, "supervinx" wrote: > > Location? Near Chicago, Illinois, USA. From mazzinia at tin.it Thu Aug 20 14:07:24 2015 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:07:24 +0200 Subject: R: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <008901d0db7b$737b38a0$5a71a9e0$@tin.it> Technically I fear is not an accurate terminology. Pirates used to roam the seas and use weapons to steal valuables or kidnap for ransom, or pillage. I suppose they started to use the term due to the "sea of information" that actually is internet, but technically the act of copying a software is closer to making good fake copies of an item ( bags, shoes, etc ), at least this is my personal view That's usually called "forgery" -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Fred Cisin Inviato: gioved? 20 agosto 2015 20:09 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: More on manuals plus rescue On Thu, 20 Aug 2015, Mouse wrote: > Copyright violation is not theft. (That doesn't make it OK. I just > get so sick of people tossing around emotionally loaded words like > "theft" and "stealing" when discussing copyright violation I feel it > incumbent on me to point out that they are not accurate.) So, "PIRACY" isn't accurate terminology? :-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 20 14:12:17 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 19:12:17 +0000 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <008901d0db7b$737b38a0$5a71a9e0$@tin.it> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , <008901d0db7b$737b38a0$5a71a9e0$@tin.it> Message-ID: > > I suppose they started to use the term due to the "sea of information" that > actually is internet, but technically the act of copying a software is > closer to making good fake copies of an item ( bags, shoes, etc ), at least > this is my personal view > That's usually called "forgery" Not really. Forgery (at least of items) normally has the idea of using inferior materials or construction and passing it off as an product of another company. For example, if you wrote an 8080 BASIC with lots of bugs, with many functions missing, etc, and then tried to pass it off as the Microsoft BASIC that would be forgery I think. But a copy of the Microsoft product _is_ identical to the genuine article. It is the same bit patterns. Once loaded into your 8080 system memory it works the same way. So IMHO it is not really a forgery. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 20 14:16:11 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 19:16:11 +0000 Subject: 5.25" floppy disk storage. Message-ID: Something non-technical from me for a change. Most of you in the UK will have come across 'Really Useful Boxes' and probably use them for storing cables, screws, etc (I wish they made anti-static ones ;-)). Anyway what I hadn't realised until today is that the 3 litre size is just the right size for storing 5.25" floppy disks (in their cardboard covers), it will take about 80 of them with enough free space to extract them easily. Finding modern boxes for 5.25" disks is not that easy (I have not found the size for 8" disks though :-() Even better, at the moment, Rymans (at least round here) have them on sale at 4 for \pounds 10.00 (normally \pounds 3.99 each). -tony From tsg at bonedaddy.net Thu Aug 20 14:31:53 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:31:53 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <008901d0db7b$737b38a0$5a71a9e0$@tin.it> Message-ID: <20150820193153.GX22122@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * tony duell [150820 15:14]: [..SNiP..] > For example, if you wrote an 8080 BASIC with lots of bugs, with many functions > missing, etc, and then tried to pass it off as the Microsoft BASIC that would > be forgery I think. Whereas if you wrote an x86/x64 OS with lots of bugs, severe security holes, etc and then tried to pass it off as Microsoft Windows, many would argue you created a faithful and exact copy. :-) From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 14:40:28 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:40:28 -0600 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Ok, but when you refer to "drive strength" I assumed you were talking about current, not voltage. By that measure totem pole outputs are pretty much symmetrical. Not for true (bipolar) TTL. See the specs for the 7400, 74LS00, 74S00: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74ls00.pdf Ioh(max) Iol(max) 7400 -0.4 16 74LS00 -0.4 8 74S00 -1 20 CMOS for comparison: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74hct00.pdf http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74act00.pdf Ioh(max) Iol(max) 74HCT00 -4 4 74ACT00 -24 24 From mazzinia at tin.it Thu Aug 20 14:45:16 2015 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:45:16 +0200 Subject: R: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , <008901d0db7b$737b38a0$5a71a9e0$@tin.it> Message-ID: <008a01d0db80$bee06c20$3ca14460$@tin.it> Maybe, but originally the "copies" were , by example, printed cds with reproduced labels and so on. Weren't those forgeries ? -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di tony duell Inviato: gioved? 20 agosto 2015 21:12 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: RE: More on manuals plus rescue > > I suppose they started to use the term due to the "sea of information" > that actually is internet, but technically the act of copying a > software is closer to making good fake copies of an item ( bags, > shoes, etc ), at least this is my personal view That's usually called > "forgery" Not really. Forgery (at least of items) normally has the idea of using inferior materials or construction and passing it off as an product of another company. For example, if you wrote an 8080 BASIC with lots of bugs, with many functions missing, etc, and then tried to pass it off as the Microsoft BASIC that would be forgery I think. But a copy of the Microsoft product _is_ identical to the genuine article. It is the same bit patterns. Once loaded into your 8080 system memory it works the same way. So IMHO it is not really a forgery. -tony = From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Aug 20 14:49:26 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:49:26 -0400 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net> > On Aug 20, 2015, at 3:40 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> Ok, but when you refer to "drive strength" I assumed you were talking about current, not voltage. By that measure totem pole outputs are pretty much symmetrical. > > Not for true (bipolar) TTL. See the specs for the 7400, 74LS00, 74S00: > http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74ls00.pdf > > Ioh(max) Iol(max) > 7400 -0.4 16 > 74LS00 -0.4 8 > 74S00 -1 20 > > CMOS for comparison: > http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74hct00.pdf > http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74act00.pdf > > Ioh(max) Iol(max) > 74HCT00 -4 4 > 74ACT00 -24 24 Ok, clearly my memory was faulty. Thanks for the corrections. paul From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 14:54:57 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 12:54:57 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A70618424DB4140B9CBB7A906878C35@workshop> On 2015-Aug-19, at 3:58 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > . . . > In fact, due to your time constraints, I would not bother with the HP, > Tek, or Heathkit manuals at all > . . . Gosh, please don't do that! What a terrible piece of advice. A large portion of the HP manuals are unavailable, and HP doesn't have them either. I have been looking for the operating and service manual for the HP 12050A (HPIB fiber optics extension) in vain. Couldn't find the one for the HP 7225B (gantry XY Pen Plotter) online, but found a hard copy version on ebay. Couldn't find any doc on the personality interface on it. On the computing side, many of the interface cards for my HP 1000 are undocumented or missing critical documents. Often a user manual is available, but not the service one. Sometimes you find the A, but not the B and they are significantly different. Etc, etc... And I am not talking obscure instruments at all. From ethan at 757.org Thu Aug 20 14:57:42 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:57:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <5A70618424DB4140B9CBB7A906878C35@workshop> References: <5A70618424DB4140B9CBB7A906878C35@workshop> Message-ID: > Gosh, please don't do that! What a terrible piece of advice. A large portion > of the HP manuals are unavailable, and HP doesn't have them either. I have > been looking for the operating and service manual for the HP 12050A (HPIB > fiber optics extension) in vain. Couldn't find the one for the HP 7225B > (gantry XY Pen Plotter) online, but found a hard copy version on ebay. > Couldn't find any doc on the personality interface on it. On the computing > side, many of the interface cards for my HP 1000 are undocumented or missing > critical documents. Often a user manual is available, but not the service > one. Sometimes you find the A, but not the B and they are significantly > different. Etc, etc... And I am not talking obscure instruments at all. Scan it all. Release it all. Set it free. (Anyone have the schematics or service manual for Yamaha C1 music computer? Yamaha doesn't.) -- Ethan O'Toole From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 15:04:54 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:04:54 -0700 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76ABDA1ECFE14D12833900105CE73D16@workshop> Following Chuck's advice, I scoped out the pin 22 and 24 (write data and write gate) on the floppy, and they looked fine. Then being curious, I managed to figure out what the write wire for Head 0 was. And I discovered I got nice matching writing pulses at 300 kHz (formatting at 360k density), but none at 500 kHz (1.2 Mb density). Results posted here: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?43874-5-1-4-quot-Flop py-Drive-Not-Reading/page9 So I tried to force formatting in DOS at 360k, and sure enough it worked! I can then read the diskette back, write on it, etc... And of course it failed formatting at 1.2 Mb. But the drive (Chinon FR-506) is a 1.2M one, and reads fine at 1.2M! Any clue? Is there a drive setting that would prevent it to write at high density but let it do at low density? Marc > Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:30:31 -0700 > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write > > On 08/18/2015 09:05 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > > > > > > I have connected a 1.2M 5.25" floppy to my computer. After a bit of > > jumper learning and setting, it's recognized and reads my old DD and > > HD floppies fine. But for the life of me I cannot write to it. Not > > under DOS, Win98, or WindowsXP. Which all read fine. > > Make sure that "WRITE GATE" goes low (use a logic probe) on pin 24 of > the drive while you do your write. If so, your floppy write circuitry > has a problem. I.e., it's not the cable. > > --Chuck > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 15:16:11 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:16:11 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <5A70618424DB4140B9CBB7A906878C35@workshop> Message-ID: > Scan it all. Release it all. Set it free. Eventually. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 20 15:28:37 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:28:37 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <1440074984.9066.YahooMailBasic@web163105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <55D5E30C.5040708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55D63875.7010407@bitsavers.org> On 8/20/15 10:48 AM, Jason Scott wrote: > I'll answer the questions about the Internet Archive's presenting of > bitsavers when I calm down You're right. This is the last post I'm going to make on this. What happened has happened, I'm not happy the way IA has presented my work, but there isn't anything I can really do about it. I'll keep uploading new work, and hopefully the documentation with survive in some form, which was the whole point for doing it in the first place. From jason at textfiles.com Thu Aug 20 15:47:49 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:47:49 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D63875.7010407@bitsavers.org> References: <1440074984.9066.YahooMailBasic@web163105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <55D5E30C.5040708@bitsavers.org> <55D63875.7010407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/20/15 10:48 AM, Jason Scott wrote: > > I'll answer the questions about the Internet Archive's presenting of >> bitsavers when I calm down >> > > You're right. This is the last post I'm going to make on this. What > happened > has happened, I'm not happy the way IA has presented my work, but there > isn't > anything I can really do about it. I'll keep uploading new work, and > hopefully > the documentation with survive in some form, which was the whole point for > doing > it in the first place. > And I'll make this the last post that I do in this mailing list on this subject. These poor people don't need to see this, this ridiculous "feud" which is basically you disagreeing with how I imported documents into the IA's system, and then stewing on it, in stone cold silence, for years and years, and then killing hell-knows-how-many projects we could have collaborated on because you "hate" me. But I'm setting the record straight and I'm making it clear what's going on here. A long time ago, I mirrored bitsavers at textfiles.com. It's been working fine, with the occasional rsync hiccup, all the years hence. Every week, incredible new documents come out from your work. In the beginning, you gave a very distinct impression, in person and in e-mail, that you were not 100% comfortable being attributed directly as "the guy" who was doing the scans. I remember this clearly. You also saw the amount of items that archive.org was putting up, in various realms, and additionally have sat in a room with me in 2013, in which you saw me give a very long, very raucous speech about the importance of the work being done, and we spent at least 30 minutes or more having one-on-one conversations about techniques in scanning. Apparently you did this while hating me. Not once did you bring up anything resembling animosity. Not once did you indicate you weren't happy with the IA approach (for example, I'm going to make sure it doesn't call itself a "mirror" and will from now on be called a "collection", a distinction 8 people care about but which is near-instantaneous for me to do). That you would spend two whole days with me at PRESERVING.EXE and not bring up, informally or at any point, your issues with the Bitsavers collection, is just shocking. In blindness, I'm going to make some changes/modifications to the IA system, which may be inadequate in your made-up metrics that I had no idea about. But I'll do them, because in some small way I hope it moves towards it being slightly less offensive to the realms you have said so far on this list, that is, accessibility and attribution. But to a greater good and realm: How many of these feuds do you have going on? How many one-sided wars are you waging? How many people are walking the earth thinking the world of you and the work you do and they have failed to play the internal hopscotch game of failure you're laying on them? Do I have to be the guy that asks this? It appears that our relationship is destroyed forever, from what I glean from your words on here. But if I can maybe spite you to reach out, to drop a note, to send a damned sentence to someone else you "hate" to have them fix the thing you're letting annoy you, so be it. I honestly love you and the work you do, Al. Come on. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 15:52:51 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:52:51 -0400 Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: <55D6214B.6070607@charter.net> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D6214B.6070607@charter.net> Message-ID: I do have my MITS Basic license, so.. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Aug 20, 2015 2:48 PM, "Jay Jaeger" wrote: > > > On 8/20/2015 9:47 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> On Aug 20, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> On 8/20/2015 3:32 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: > >>> Who picked this up - > >>> > >>> I may have some cash for the buyer to mate it with my new ASR33, on > its way via crate and freight. > >>> > >>> Anybody got debug and startup tips on the 33, it probably has been > siting for a while. > >>> (like who has the melted hammer replacements and such, tape and paper > sources) > >>> > >>> I assume all the 8K, 4K BASICs are in public domain by now. The demo > for the kids will be the 15 minutes of paper tape, followed by READY. > >>> > >>> Randy > >>> > >> > >> Bad assumption. Things that were actually registered even if there was > >> no notice, or published with a copyright notice would still be protected > >> under U.S. copyright. > > > > Depending on when. If it was published without notice, the key question > is whether publication occurred before Jan 1, 1978, or after. After, > notice does not matter; before, lack of notice means no copyright. > > Even before, if it was registered, then it would be covered, even if > there was no notice. > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 20 15:57:05 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:57:05 -0700 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: <76ABDA1ECFE14D12833900105CE73D16@workshop> References: <76ABDA1ECFE14D12833900105CE73D16@workshop> Message-ID: <55D63F21.3070704@sydex.com> On 08/20/2015 01:04 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > So I tried to force formatting in DOS at 360k, and sure enough it > worked! I can then read the diskette back, write on it, etc... And of > course it failed formatting at 1.2 Mb. But the drive (Chinon FR-506) > is a 1.2M one, and reads fine at 1.2M! Any clue? Is there a drive > setting that would prevent it to write at high density but let it do > at low density? At high density, have you taken a good look at pin 2 of the floppy interface? Have you checked to see if pin 2 is configured (via jumpers) as "density select"? Various drives have different jumperings for pins 2 and 34 (and sometimes 4). For example, I deal with some Japanese CNC gear that uses pin 2 for disk change and pin 34 for read (and pin 4 for "in use". --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 15:59:39 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:59:39 -0400 Subject: R: DECdatasystem 534 (11/34) and VT52 for sale at VCF Midwest 10 In-Reply-To: References: <9lfnrxjtxtafe6j3sd019hyr.1440092228030@email.android.com> Message-ID: Working on my vt50 yesterday. 50 and 52's are nice giant glass terminal replacements to asr33. From the perspective of the teletype small, zenith 19 or vt100, huge! The last great old school terminal. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Aug 20, 2015 3:02 PM, "Jason T" wrote: > On Aug 20, 2015 12:37 PM, "supervinx" wrote: > > > > Location? > > Near Chicago, Illinois, USA. > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 16:09:21 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 17:09:21 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <5A70618424DB4140B9CBB7A906878C35@workshop> References: <5A70618424DB4140B9CBB7A906878C35@workshop> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 3:54 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > On 2015-Aug-19, at 3:58 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> . . . >> In fact, due to your time constraints, I would not bother with the HP, >> Tek, or Heathkit manuals at all >> . . . > > Gosh, please don't do that! What a terrible piece of advice. OK, first off - don't be an asshole. You clipped off an important part of my post. Here is the original: > In fact, due to your time constraints, I would not bother with the HP, > Tek, or Heathkit manuals at all. They can wait for the next hoard. <---important detail! > They are low value targets eating up your limited resources. <----another important detail! As I said before, test equipment manual hoards are not all that rare - even big ones with thousands of manuals. You would not believe some of the basements I have been in - hams (active or not) that have shelves and shelves and shelves of test equipment manuals. The few remaining old time surplus dealers have gobs of manuals as well. Even some of the ma-and-pa two way radio or TV repair places have extremely impressive tech libraries. The stuff is out there. When someone, Jason in this case, is presented with a huge rescue effort and a severe time constraint, the first thing to do is sit down and think things in a practical manner. There is a lot to think about, but one of the big things is to prioritize the rescue with worst case scenarios. Often the worse case scenarios seem like they will happen, but in fact do not. Time constraints often loosen up. In the Manuals Plus case, Jason needs to move some 25,000 manuals (out of maybe 400,000?) in two days. As far as the whole operation is concerned, those two days are it, and whatever has not been processed and saved is doomed. The best thing to do then is to use the odds. Save the material where there is very rare, from obscure makers that turn up only very rarely. Skip the material that is mostly extremely common that can perhaps be picked up in the next job. With test equipment, that stuff would be HP, Tek, and Heath. Sure, by skipping HP (for example), a truly rare manual might get skipped (5840A, perhaps), but there is a reasonable chance it might be saved down the line. However, if HP is made a priority, saving all the common material (600 series signal generators, perhaps) might clog up the system, and when time runs out, that original 1920 manual for the Westinghouse Osiso oscilloscope ends up in the dumpster. And the chances of the next hoard having that manual? I will bet a tiny fraction of the chance of finding a manual for the 5840A. But hey, the 608A manual was saved! Add it to the pile of other 608A manuals. And, of course, if the time constraint does get lifted, either by the owner or the productivity of the crew - the HP, Tek, and Heath stuff can then be dealt with. It is not like the plan is set in stone and the manuals are condemned. I have been in the surplus business for quite a long time, and have been dealing in manuals for about 20 years (15 for test equipment, because I gave up on that stuff about 5 years ago). I have had thousands of manuals pass thru my hands. Last year I cleaned out Radio Research of their paper - a job about half the size of the Manuals Plus job. I did it alone over several months (along with a more general cleanout of the place). Before that was a hoard from a no-name surplus dealer out of Dayton, OH. Before that was the Compass technical library. Interspersed have been a lot of smaller rescues for myself and clients (like the Cyber Resources job for CHM, and the EMC/Data General tape library save for another client). While I do not really boast about this stuff (this being a rare exception), I can say I do know what the hell I am doing. -- Will From jason at textfiles.com Thu Aug 20 16:22:47 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 17:22:47 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <5A70618424DB4140B9CBB7A906878C35@workshop> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 5:09 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > When someone, Jason in this case, is presented with a huge rescue > effort and a severe time constraint, the first thing to do is sit down > and think things in a practical manner. There is a lot to think about, > but one of the big things is to prioritize the rescue with worst case > scenarios. Often the worse case scenarios seem like they will happen, > but in fact do not. Time constraints often loosen up. In the Manuals > Plus case, Jason needs to move some 25,000 manuals (out of maybe > 400,000?) in two days. As far as the whole operation is concerned, > those two days are it, and whatever has not been processed and saved > is doomed. The best thing to do then is.... > I agree. If I had the chance to do this again, and the publicity of this has been worldwide so I probably will, then I would be going in with a ton more knowledge and backstory, and would be changing up a lot of what we did. I knew that the HP stuff was not QUITE as important, in some scales, as the smaller, rarer stuff, but I also knew, from doing volunteer armies, that it's good for people to get decent practice, so I put the first 10 people on HP duty. When people showed real talent with the sorting (fast, accurate), I moved them over to Simpson, US Government, Hughes, and other smaller but important piles. Also, I was able to do something with the army which isn't always possible - I kept sending people after the "done" shelves when they had nothing to do, just to make sure they didn't see missed uniques or master copies. (Master copies, in this case, had a sticker.) We definitely didn't have enough time and while I am a charmer, the owner was done and done with this stuff, and I knew he didn't need to hear Yet Another Expert In How He Should Do Things bother him in his own office. I considered what we got to be pretty comprehensively the unique items that were in there, with maybe a few revisions here and there lost, especially in HP, where the revisions were ridiculously subtle. I was definitely out of my depth, up to and including understanding the breadth of the task and the best practices. As an old hand, YOU know that the hard dates and the techniques were fluid, but I had to take everything at its face and word, and so I took it as "two days, starting Monday". Not the best guy for the job, but the present guy for the job. I'd DEFINITELY go a whole other way and hit up a LOT of e-mails (including you) if I'm facing this again. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 20 16:59:43 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , <008901d0db7b$737b38a0$5a71a9e0$@tin.it> Message-ID: >> > I suppose they started to use the term due to the "sea of information" that > actually is internet, but technically the act of copying a software is > closer to making good fake copies of an item ( bags, shoes, etc ), at least > this is my personal view > That's usually called "forgery" On Thu, 20 Aug 2015, tony duell wrote: > Not really. Forgery (at least of items) normally has the idea of using > inferior materials or construction and passing it off as an product of > another company. For some items, it is provenance, not inferior materials. For example, high denomination currency, or original works of art. Some, art forgeries in fact, might be more detectable by NOT being the inferior materials that the original was created with. > For example, if you wrote an 8080 BASIC with lots of bugs, with many > functions missing, etc, and then tried to pass it off as the Microsoft > BASIC that would be forgery I think. If the bugs and broken functions were all fixed, then it would no longer match, but still be an infringement. > But a copy of the Microsoft product _is_ identical to the genuine > article. It is the same bit patterns. Once loaded into your 8080 system > memory it works the same way. So IMHO it is not really a forgery. Being identical does not make it not a forgery. A dollar bill that is indistinguishable could still be a forgery (a good one), if the only way to tell it apart was the presence of another with same serial number. In the original dispute between Apparat and Tandy, Apparat originally argued that because their documentation was a bug-fix list, and that they TOLD their customers that they HAD TO have a copy of TRS-DOS. When that didn't hold up, they tried to claim that their modified product was SO different, with SO many bugfixes, that there was nothing left of the original. At that point somebody (Randy Cook's lawyer?) demonstrated an easter egg copyright message of "RANDY COOK". (The next release from Radio Shack, which Randy Cook was not involved in, corrected that to "TANDY CORP" The final settlement included Apparat discontinuing it, and releasing a rewritten from scratch "NewDos-80" Don't know the other terms of the settlement. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 20 17:32:27 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D6214B.6070607@charter.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Aug 2015, william degnan wrote: > I do have my MITS Basic license, so.. Is it transferrable? From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 17:40:21 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 18:40:21 -0400 Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D6214B.6070607@charter.net> Message-ID: LOL Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Aug 20, 2015 6:32 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > On Thu, 20 Aug 2015, william degnan wrote: > >> I do have my MITS Basic license, so.. >> > > Is it transferrable? > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 20 17:43:10 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But yeah, I'd hate to run up against BillG in a spat over appropriating his > Altair BASIC. He could squash me like a bug with his legal resources. I > recall that other outfits stealing his code was one of his big public gripes > back in the pre-PC days. > Better to ask first, no? I keep playing that old song, but "used with > perimission" is a small price to pay, isn't it? Chuck is absolutely right (as usual) Our, or anybody else's, interpretations of the laws are of far less significance than how BillG feels about it. So, buy Bill Degnan's license, and write a nice note to Bill Gates. When you do, ask him if there any updates to it planned. From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Aug 20 17:55:25 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:55:25 +0000 Subject: OpenVMS TCP/IP Services 5.3 availability Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBBC485@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> We are currently running TCP/IP Services 5.1 under OpenVMS 7.3 on the museum's VAX-11/780-5. The telnet listener has a known issue which is fixed in v5.3, but we have not been able to locate this (we've asked in the right places). Was this on a ConDist platter? Or was it made available in some other way? We have a perpetual license for VMS, and renew our other licenses annually, so PAKs are not an issue. Would someone be willing to loan us the install media? Or otherwise make this available? Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 Cell: (206) 465-2916 Desk: (206) 342-2239 http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 20:44:35 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:44:35 -0400 Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2015 6:43 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > > On Thu, 20 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> But yeah, I'd hate to run up against BillG in a spat over appropriating his Altair BASIC. He could squash me like a bug with his legal resources. I recall that other outfits stealing his code was one of his big public gripes back in the pre-PC days. >> Better to ask first, no? I keep playing that old song, but "used with perimission" is a small price to pay, isn't it? > > > Chuck is absolutely right (as usual) > > Our, or anybody else's, interpretations of the laws are of far less significance than how BillG feels about it. > So, buy Bill Degnan's license, and write a nice note to Bill Gates. > When you do, ask him if there any updates to it planned. > > > Gates does not care about personal use of MITS software, be realistic. B From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 20 21:08:40 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 19:08:40 -0700 Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> On 08/20/2015 06:44 PM, william degnan wrote: > Gates does not care about personal use of MITS software, be > realistic. B So--ask. I don't presume to read the minds of others. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 21:54:15 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:54:15 -0400 Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2015 10:08 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > On 08/20/2015 06:44 PM, william degnan wrote: > >> Gates does not care about personal use of MITS software, be >> realistic. B > > > So--ask. I don't presume to read the minds of others. > Chuck..allow me to posit an alternative view Be it right or wrong to use an unlicensed copy...Even back in 1976 MSOFT to my knowledge did not pursue legal action against end users for violation of its BASIC license, so why in 2015 presume MSOFT would start now? To be honorable it would not hurt to send a letter to the Living History Museum c/o Paul Allen to ask for a hobbyist license but we both know that is a huge longshot. Maybe Ian King would have his ear. But to what end? Again, I respect your opinion not looking to argue beyond this friendly reply. As I said before I do have a license but it is not for sale..where would I get a new copy? Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 20 21:57:36 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:57:36 -0500 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> What follows is a tale of carelessness, stupidity and laziness. So far, I haven't found an excuse to add ignorance to the list. ;) As you may recall, I was testing an 8" floppy drive that was reading inconsistently on an Altos 8000 system, when, while testing with a replacement drive, the 24V power supply gave out. First I acquired a replacement series pass (2N3055) from Radio Shack. That did not seem to fix the problem. Further, due to *carelessness* (#1) during the replacement and testing of the 2N3055, I managed to break the center lead off of the TIP31A which drives it. So, I ordered a replacement for the TIP31A, and, while I was at it, ordered several LM723 Voltage Regulators, just in case (good idea, as it turned out). Then, I replaced the TIP31A, put it back together and --- nothing. No output. Oh well, I guess the LM723 must be bad. Then, in the process of checking that out, I tilted the board over on its back and, due to my *carelessness* (#2) and *stupidity* (#3)) FLASH!!! BANG!!!! POP!!!! Though switched off, the power supply was still plugged in - I had neglected to unplug it. The board came in contact with what SHOULD HAVE BEEN neutral, which likely would have caused no harm. I didn't actually realize that until I was on my way back home with the parts to replace what had blown out. [Also a design note: Altos did not cover up the input terminals on the transformer or use quick disconnect plugs - either of which would have saved the day.] After some thought (and a test), I realized that, due to prior laziness / neglect (#4 - about 10 years+ worth), and a dose of stupidity, the mains hot and neutral were reversed on my bench. Thus the power switch was on the neutral side, and the mains to the power supply was "hot" even when not turned on. At least this was not *originally* my fault. That circuit came that way when we bought the house. But, out of laziness, neglect and stupidity, I had not fixed it, even though I had known about it for years. So, this blew up the -12V supply (quite literally) -- cross out a pair of rectifiers, an LM723 voltage regulator (spectacularly blown up, with a hole in middle and two leads blow away), and a 2N2905 transistor, a couple of resistors and a trace on the circuit board. (At the time, the 2N3055 series pass transistor was not connected in the circuit). The fuse didn't blow - it wasn't part of the circuit, being on the neutral side of things because of the miss-wired mains in the house - the short was from hot to ground. (A GFCI, had I had one, would undoubtedly have tripped). Next, I pulled out all the blown components, and tested what was left. Being at least halfway clever, I proceeded to test the +24V and +12V supplies first. Once I replaced the original LM723 on the +24V supply, which was already undoubtedly bad, the +24V supply was fine - the short to the mains had not affected it. But the +12V supply's LM723 had apparently been collateral damage - the -12V supply uses the +12V supply as part of its LM723 circuit, so the two are connected. (I knew something was wrong, because even though I could set the supply +12V, the adjustment worked backwards, and under load the voltage dropped too much). So, I replaced the +12V supply LM723, and the +12V supply came back to life. Both tested fine under load, no ripple, only 20mv of noise. During these tests, I moved the same 2N3055 from circuit to circuit to avoid having to completely reassemble the supply. That saved time. But, do you think I was done being careless? Noooooooooooooope. Next, I soldered in the components for the -12V supply, including its 2N3055, and turned it on. KA-BANG!!! FLASH!!! DEBRIS CLOUD !!! Out of carelessness (#5) I had managed to put the electrolytic input capacitors in BACWARDS. I now had a nice coil of cardboard and aluminum sticking up out of one of them. Then the next day (today) I found the can itself lying on the floor - this power supply predates the modern practice of scored break lines in electrolytic capacitors. It could easily have hit me in the eye. So, I took both of those capacitors out, and tested the one that had not blown up. It seemed to be OK - no excessive leakage. So, I put in a replacement and... 0V output. Blown fuse. What the? Ahhhhh - forgot to check the rectifiers - and the capacitor reversal took both of those with it. The other semiconductors were fine. Replaced the rectifiers, put in the capacitors correctly and, finally, the -12V supply came to life. Adjusted, load tested, checked ripple. (Still need to replace the surviving capacitor. I don't trust it. And the smaller signal transistor I used is a bit underrated compared to the original (650mw vs. 800mw), so I expect I will replace both in a week or so, but for now the supply is quite usable. Ah yes - one other thing. The circuit (which the bench shares with a wall-wart powered water softener) that had hot and neutral reversed is reversed no longer, as of this afternoon. It now also has a GFCI, for good measure - a good idea on a bench circuit, methinks. So, maybe tomorrow, I can put this machine back together and get back to testing the floppy drive. So, SAFETY FIRST. Learn from my experience - it could have been deadly or resulted in serious injury (say, if a shock or reaction to the capacitor explosion had caused me to tip over on my stool an hit my head, or that capacitor can projectile had hit me in the eye). To paraphrase from the Direct TV commercials: DON'T BE LIKE THE LAZY ME. DON'T BE LIKE THE CARELESS ME. Be like the smarter, conscientious me who knows better. UNPLUG stuff before you work on it - DOUBLE CHECK. HAVE A GFCI for your workbench. Wear some kind of safety goggles or at least hardened corrective lenses when soldering and testing power supplies, especially. When replacing filter capacitors in a power supply (or anywhere else, for that matter), take an extra second to double check their polarity (I usually do - but "spaced" it this time). [Which reminds me of the IBM 1414 I/O synchronizer that had been at the U. Wisconsin Registrar and then the U. W. school of business, that had easily more than 10 smallish filter capacitors on the backplane that were backwards for years (these were hooked up with little sockets that slipped right over the pins on the backplane). Each day it took 10 minutes for things to settle down and the printer to stop showing its red Sync Check light because of the noise in the circuit. But they never blew up. The FE's finally got tired of seeing that anomaly and spent an entire day hunting it down.] I wish I could say I was in a hurry. That excuse wouldn't cut it anyway - but I was actually taking my time. Just careless. Sigh. JRJ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 20 22:01:13 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 20:01:13 -0700 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: <55D63F21.3070704@sydex.com> References: , <76ABDA1ECFE14D12833900105CE73D16@workshop>, <55D63F21.3070704@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:57:05 -0700 > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: General at classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write > > On 08/20/2015 01:04 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > > > So I tried to force formatting in DOS at 360k, and sure enough it > > worked! I can then read the diskette back, write on it, etc... And of > > course it failed formatting at 1.2 Mb. But the drive (Chinon FR-506) > > is a 1.2M one, and reads fine at 1.2M! Any clue? Is there a drive > > setting that would prevent it to write at high density but let it do > > at low density? > > At high density, have you taken a good look at pin 2 of the floppy > interface? Have you checked to see if pin 2 is configured (via jumpers) > as "density select"? Various drives have different jumperings for > pins 2 and 34 (and sometimes 4). For example, I deal with some Japanese > CNC gear that uses pin 2 for disk change and pin 34 for read (and pin 4 > for "in use". > > --Chuck > > If formatting an already formatted disk, the format program will notlet you format a different density.Do note what I said earlier. Just formatting and writing to a 360K ona 1.2M drive can in some cases make it unusable on a 360K drive.The 1.2M drive does not erase the full width of a 360K track.When attempting to read on a 360K drive, there will be too much noisefrom the older track.If you are really interested in creating 360K disk, you must have a 360Kdrive.Dwight From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 22:16:07 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:16:07 -0600 Subject: Power supply connector pin crimping, and 8-inch FDD power connectors (another chapter in the Quay 900 saga) Message-ID: Last week I wanted to test some half-height eight-inch double-sided drives (NEC, Mistubishi, and Qume) on the Quay 900. I cabled a Mitsubishi drive in place of the original CDC/MPI 9406 77618022 drives, and the machine apparently wouldn't reset properly, since I wasn't getting the prompt from my ROM monitor either on power-up or by manually resetting it. I poked around a bit and discovered that the +5V DC supply was at about 0.7V. I disconnected the Mitsubishi, and it still didn't work, and the +5V was still at 0.7V. Uh oh, what did I break? After a lot of pulling of hair, gnashing of teeth, and sacrificing a chicken at midnight, I discovered that +5V pin in the connector that plugs onto the switching power supply was not crimped properly. It was partially crimped, but the wire was just loose. The cable connector is an AMP (now TE) 87025-7 "Ampmodu" 0.156-inch pitch shell which accepts 102103-3 rectangular crimp receptacles. The shell has 20 positions, of which they inserted a keying plug in position 1, and only use contacts in some of the even positions from 2 though 20, because the header on the power supply PCB only has every other pin loaded. TE no longer makes the 87025-7, but they still make the 87025-8, which is apparently the same thing without the part number being stamped on the housing. I don't need another housing though, just a pin, because without the right extraction tool I hadn't been able to get the old pin out without mangling it a fair bit. Mouser and Digikey sell the pins in small quantity for $0.50 each, which seems absurdly high for a crimp pin with only tin plating. (There's another part number for a gold contact, but distributors don't stock it.) Just for the hell of it, I looked up the TE manual (hand) crimping tool designed for this pin, p/n 90274-2. It sells for over $6500. There is a used one on eBay for $75, but I've had bad experience buying used crimping tools. The only crimping tool I have on hand is designed for terminals with a round shell that just have to be crimped flat, vs. for terminals with V-shaped edges that have to be folded back in, as is typical of Molex pins and the like. I decided to order an inexpensive ratcheting crimping tool from an Amazon seller. It's an Iwiss SN-28B, also sold under the Estone and other brands. The Iwiss was $19. I couldn't tell from the photos whether it would be suitable. It turns out that it worked perfectly for the TE pins. It has two pairs of dies stacked with one pair having a larger profile, so it does crimp both the conductor and the insulator at the same time, which I wasn't expecting for a sub-$20 tool. That got the machine working again, and I verified that the CDC/MPI drives are still working, or at least working as well as they were before. I'm still seeing a lot of unreliability when using double-density on the highest-numbered tracks (closest to spindle). Could be the wrong amount of precomp, or the low-quality data separator design. Since one of the two MPI drives gets more errors than the other, there may be some issue with drive alignment or drive electronics adjustment as well. I unplugged the MPI drives and plugged in the Mitsubishi. Once again the machine wouldn't reset properly. It turns out that even though this bizarre variant of the 9406 uses the Shugart pinout for the data connector instead of the MPI pinout, and uses the same DC power connector as the Shugart, instead of the header used in normal MPI 9406 drives, the DC power connector pinout for the MPI does NOT match the Shugart DC pinout, as also used by the various half-height drives I want to try. I'm becoming less and less impressed with these MPI drives as I learn more about them. With the Mitsubishi cabled up to the Quay, but using a separate DC power supply with the correct pinout, I was able to verify that the Mitsubishi drive actually works fine. When used with the Quay FDC, it does need some retries for double-density on the inner tracks, like the MPIs, but it doesn't need as many retries as either of the MPI drives. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 22:35:54 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:35:54 -0600 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: References: <76ABDA1ECFE14D12833900105CE73D16@workshop> <55D63F21.3070704@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 9:01 PM, dwight wrote: > If you are really interested in creating 360K disk, you must have a 360Kdrive. And beyond that, sometimes trying to format or write to a "360K" (48 TPI) disk in a "1.2M" (96 TPI) drive does appear to work, and may even appear to read reliably on the same drive, but it's *NEVER* going to be reliable to read it on an actual 48 TPI drive. The best case result is if you use a 96 TPI drive with a floppy that has NEVER been written (even at the factory), and format it and write at 48 TPI, that actually may read reliably on 48 TPI drives, because it doesn't have remnants of normal-width 48 TPI tracks. However, it's still not recommended for obvious reasons. Some people have claimed that they've been able to achieve the same effect by degaussing the floppy first, but when I experimented with that I found that even a supposedly high-power degaussing coil was pretty marginal for actually erasing floppy disks. It definitely would corrupt the data and render it unreadable, but it did NOT yield a truly erased disk. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 20 22:36:00 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 20:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Aug 2015, william degnan wrote: >>> Gates does not care about personal use of MITS software, be >>> realistic. B > . . . > Be it right or wrong to use an unlicensed copy...Even back in 1976 MSOFT to > my knowledge did not pursue legal action against end users for violation of > its BASIC license, so why in 2015 presume MSOFT would start now? That is so hurtful to say that he does not care. On February 3 1976, he personally, not even staffing it out in Micro-Soft, sent out an open letter to hobbyists, saying that he cared. http://www.digibarn.com/collections/newsletters/homebrew/V2_01/homebrew_V2_01_p2.jpg He even explained that nothing would please him more than to hire ten programmers and deluge the hobbyist market with good software! (I think that Bob Wallace was number ten) He might not still be able to afford to live at the Albuquerque address that he included in the letter (I heard that he had to go back home to Seattle), but I'm sure that he would love to have somebody write to him, and maybe even offer to pay for a copy of the BASIC. From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 22:45:58 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:45:58 -0500 Subject: Power supply connector pin crimping, and 8-inch FDD power connectors (another chapter in the Quay 900 saga) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Eric & All, On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 10:16 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Last week (...) After a lot of pulling of hair, gnashing of teeth, and sacrificing a > chicken at midnight, I discovered that +5V pin in the connector that > plugs onto the switching power supply was not crimped properly. It was > partially crimped, but the wire was just loose. Funny how that happens. Not sure if you recall, but I found the same issue in the Altair 8800 that I restored some months back. In that case, it was on the 120AC primary side.. connector was crimped, everything appeared just fine, but the system was unstable.. had to go all the way back to the AC 'molex' to find the EVIL within. Stripping a fresh 1/8" section, filing / scraping out the char inside the old connector pin, resoldering, and all was well. That stuff can hide, so deep.. From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Thu Aug 20 23:10:13 2015 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 23:10:13 -0500 Subject: Looking for RL8A controller card Message-ID: <657D74AAB9644F66A03AD8ACF5EE3142@CharlesHPLaptop> I have a PDP-8/A with a flaky RL8A (M8433) controller card. I can't track the fault down. I've spent enough hours on it by now that I'd just as soon buy another one. Anyone have one to sell? Or possibly could repair mine (for compensation)? thanks Charles From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 20 23:23:57 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 23:23:57 -0500 Subject: Power supply connector pin crimping, and 8-inch FDD power connectors (another chapter in the Quay 900 saga) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D6A7DD.8020801@charter.net> On 8/20/2015 10:16 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > It turns out that even though this bizarre variant of the 9406 uses > the Shugart pinout for the data connector instead of the MPI pinout, > and uses the same DC power connector as the Shugart, instead of the > header used in normal MPI 9406 drives, the DC power connector pinout > for the MPI does NOT match the Shugart DC pinout, as also used by the > various half-height drives I want to try. I'm becoming less and less > impressed with these MPI drives as I learn more about them. > One of the things I learned in working with the SA-800 series is that they can accept either unregulated -12V or regulated -5V on pin 4, depending upon how jumper L is set. But the specs do talk about that, and the specs on my Siemens FDD 100-8 match the Shugart power pinout (the -5V regulator, though, is apparently option, and not necessarily present on every FDD 100-8). There is passing mention of an SA 800L in the Shugart OEM manual that apparently does not require this negative supply. JRJ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 20 23:22:10 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:22:10 -0700 Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D6A772.1050204@sydex.com> > Be it right or wrong to use an unlicensed copy...Even back in 1976 > MSOFT to my knowledge did not pursue legal action against end users > for violation of its BASIC license, so why in 2015 presume MSOFT > would start now? To be honorable it would not hurt to send a letter > to the Living History Museum c/o Paul Allen to ask for a hobbyist > license but we both know that is a huge longshot. Maybe Ian King > would have his ear. But to what end? > > Again, I respect your opinion not looking to argue beyond this > friendly reply. As I said before I do have a license but it is not > for sale..where would I get a new copy? Sure, I understand. Paul Allen might get a personal kick out of it. My experience with the world of music publishing is somewhat related, however. Pretty much in the USA, if a copyright was renewed and made it to 1978, it has a lifetime of 95 years, until the US Congress extends that to 120-150 years. (The US Supreme Court has held that creating copyrights that never expire (i.e. copyright in perpetuity) is not constitutional, it has held that there is not a specific upper limit to copyright duration. Nor is it necessary that one possess an actual copy of the material under copyright protection. Consider Warner Bros., owner of the copyright to "Happy Birthday to you". The authors of the ditty had both been long dead when Warner acquired the copyright--and it brings in about $2 million a year. (There reportedly has been discovered a 1922 book with the words and music, which, by copyright terms then in force, would render Happy Birthday to be in the public domain.) Indeed, I've been contacted by an author for a copy of his own software to be licensed to another party, as he'd lost the code several years back. (Yes, I purchased a license way back when). Unlike patents and trademarks, it's not necessary for the copyright holder to prosecute every infringement brought to his attention. He can simply select the deepest pockets. I've tried to get permission to arrange a work written in 1917, but not published until 1969 and been refused (and not politely). Of course, the author had already been dead in 1969... --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 23:42:11 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:42:11 -0600 Subject: Power supply connector pin crimping, and 8-inch FDD power connectors (another chapter in the Quay 900 saga) In-Reply-To: <55D6A7DD.8020801@charter.net> References: <55D6A7DD.8020801@charter.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 10:23 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > One of the things I learned in working with the SA-800 series is that > they can accept either unregulated -12V or regulated -5V on pin 4, I've dealt with that issue on full height drives. The half-height drives, and some newer-model full-height, don't need a negative voltage, and leave that pin of the connector as a no-connect. I've verifed that pin 4 is specified as a no-connect in the documentation for the Mitsubishi M2896-63 that I attempted to use in place of the MPI drive, and also the Tandon TM848 series and the Qume 242. Apparently the MPI 9406 -22 variant has some other incompatibility with the standard Seagate DC power connector configuration, but I haven't taken the time to trace out the power wiring in the Quay 900 any more than was necessary. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 20 23:46:41 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:46:41 -0700 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: References: , <76ABDA1ECFE14D12833900105CE73D16@workshop>, <55D63F21.3070704@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D6AD31.4080208@sydex.com> Re: Degaussing floppies. Only part of degaussing a floppy is getting a strong enough degausser--I use on made for wiping VHS carts--it gets very hot after only about 3 minutes of use and the thermal cutout belays my impatience until it cools off. So it's definitely not wimpy. However, to use it, you have to observe the correct mumbo-jumbo. You press it against the floppy in question, hit and hold the power button and *slowly* pull the disk away, moving said disk in a roughly circular motion. A quick check using Kyread shows no discernible magnetic pattern remaining. On a related matter, I've found that using a very strong rare earth/neodymium magnet (i.e. if you get your fingers between it and a hunk of iron, you should not be surprised with broken bones or severe tissue damage) on a "bad" high-density 3.5" floppy, followed by a pass with the degausser will often return the floppy to usability. This comes up occasionally when I'm asked to repair a factory-labeled floppy that's developed issues. You want to keep the original labeling and short of inserting a new "cookie", this approach actually works. For what it's worth, I use the magnets with large steel ball bearings to roll dents out of sheet brass--so I do have a valid reason for having one around. This goes to an observation that DSHD 3.5" media appears to develop some sort of "fatigue" after a certain number of write passes. For what little it's worth, Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 23:50:27 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:50:27 -0600 Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: <55D6A772.1050204@sydex.com> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D6A772.1050204@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Indeed, I've been contacted by an author for a copy of his own software to > be licensed to another party, as he'd lost the code several years back. > (Yes, I purchased a license way back when). A few years ago, an engineer at a Very Big Corporation asked me if I had their source code to the firmware in one of their best-selling products, which has sold tens of millions of units over more than two decades. They had lost the source code, and they knew that I had some familiarity with the internals of the product, so they thought I might have the source code. I had actually requested the source code from them many years before, and had been willing to sign an NDA, but they had not been willing to make it available to me. A few years after they asked me, they did track down one of the employees who originally wrote the firmware, and who had retained a copy of the source code, probably contrary to company policy. I've worked for several companies that lost source code and were saved by employees having kept copies in violation of corporate policy. One of those companies threatened to fire the employee who saved their bacon by having kept the code. (No, it wasn't me.) People have told me that big companies have good controls and don't lose their source code. From personal experience I can say that you can't count on that. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Aug 21 00:02:12 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:02:12 -0700 Subject: MIPS systems available... Message-ID: <20150820220212.18bd611b@asrock.bcwi.net> Weirdstuff recently received the following: (2) Magnum 4000SC-50 mips systems (2) RS 2030 mips systems Look clean (from the outside)... Contact Jim if you're interested in them. Usual disclaimer: I have no relationship with Weirdstuff other than as a client. I receive no remuneration for posting this. I do a weekly "tour" of their facilities to find vintage gear. Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From scaron at umich.edu Thu Aug 20 09:24:09 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:24:09 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: I'm no lawyer but I'm pretty sure the intellectual property rights of the documentation belong to the original manufacturer of the equipment, not with some random guy selling Xeroxes on eBay or the Web. I suppose it's possible there's the rare case where an individual has actually gone and acquired the rights to the documentation but my suspicion is that 99% of these vendors operate in a legal gray area along with Abandonware vendors ... they have no standing to dictate terms to me ... and many are committing the worse IP violation of not just giving away the material to which they have no rights, but SELLING it. Sorry if I ruffled the feathers of the dealers here, or people who have friends who are dealers ... Daniel, where'd you get your JD? Best, Sean On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 9:39 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Aug 19, 2015, at 3:28 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > > > > At what point should historic preservationists be concerned with > preserving > > someone else's obsolescent business model? Selling Xerox copies and > burned > > CDs ... and that's hard cash out of the pocket of every hobbyist that > could > > undoubtedly be better spent say, preserving actual equipment, than > paying a > > "vig" on documentation. I know it's hard to make a living in the USA > these > > days but I feel the suggestion is only going to hurt consumers and delay > > the inevitable anyway. > > If you want to have a defensible claim that your personal property is your > own, you have to likewise respect the claims of others to theirs. > > If someone sells property he owns, you have a choice: you can spend your > money to buy it, or you can elect not to spend your money and not buy it. > But you cannot argue that the seller's business is "obsolescent" and this > is a reason to justify stealing his property. Nor can you argue, in a free > market, that the selling price is a "vig" -- if you don't like the price, > offer less, find another seller, or get in the business yourself. > > paul > > > From scaron at umich.edu Thu Aug 20 09:44:11 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:44:11 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: OK, interesting defense of private property and while I'm a socialistic kind of guy I'm not going to argue with you the fundamental right to private property but my consideration is, while some vendor may own one particular "dead trees" incarnation of a manual, they don't own the IP rights to the actual content ... they are taking advantage of the gray area there as much as any preservationist ... only for their own profit, and not just public enlightenment. If I happen to have another copy of a manual and I scan it and someone elects to use that incarnation instead of paying $50 for someone's dead trees, I haven't stolen anyone's manual; they still have it ... It's just not worth what he thinks it's worth. Best, Sean On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 9:39 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Aug 19, 2015, at 3:28 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > > > > At what point should historic preservationists be concerned with > preserving > > someone else's obsolescent business model? Selling Xerox copies and > burned > > CDs ... and that's hard cash out of the pocket of every hobbyist that > could > > undoubtedly be better spent say, preserving actual equipment, than > paying a > > "vig" on documentation. I know it's hard to make a living in the USA > these > > days but I feel the suggestion is only going to hurt consumers and delay > > the inevitable anyway. > > If you want to have a defensible claim that your personal property is your > own, you have to likewise respect the claims of others to theirs. > > If someone sells property he owns, you have a choice: you can spend your > money to buy it, or you can elect not to spend your money and not buy it. > But you cannot argue that the seller's business is "obsolescent" and this > is a reason to justify stealing his property. Nor can you argue, in a free > market, that the selling price is a "vig" -- if you don't like the price, > offer less, find another seller, or get in the business yourself. > > paul > > > From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 01:02:31 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 00:02:31 -0600 Subject: 8-inch alignment floppy wanted Message-ID: Does anyone have a spare 8-inch alignment floppy they'd be willing to sell? I'd prefer a double-sided one, but even a single-sided would be better than nothing. From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 02:01:37 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 00:01:37 -0700 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F7723A8D8CD426C8F65386AD21E99E9@workshop> Thanks Chuck. Looks like you are on to something, I'll search in this direction. Unlikely it has anything to do with the disks themselves, which were blank. The 500 kHz write signal present on the connector just doesn't make it to the head, whereas the 300 kHz does. On the other handm something along what Chuck suggests could create this exact problem. I'll let you know how it goes. I am aware of the narrow track problem of 360k written by HD drives, so I have other native 360k DD drives for that purpose. For now I just want my HD drive to behave as one ;-) >At high density, have you taken a good look at pin 2 of the floppy >interface? Have you checked to see if pin 2 is configured (via jumpers) >as "density select"? Various drives have different jumperings for >pins 2 and 34 (and sometimes 4). For example, I deal with some Japanese >CNC gear that uses pin 2 for disk change and pin 34 for read (and pin 4 >for "in use". >--Chuck >> So I tried to force formatting in DOS at 360k, and sure enough it >> worked! I can then read the diskette back, write on it, etc... And of >> course it failed formatting at 1.2 Mb. But the drive (Chinon FR-506) >> is a 1.2M one, and reads fine at 1.2M! Any clue? Is there a drive >> setting that would prevent it to write at high density but let it do >> at low density? From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Aug 21 02:13:29 2015 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 00:13:29 -0700 Subject: Cheap board guy Message-ID: <55D6CF99.7040905@jwsss.com> I have the following from the gold scrapper guy so far... Great tip. Wonder if anyone else partook of the tipoff. Thanks Jim http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2015/08/dec-boards-kdj11-2-kdf11-and-motorola.html From jws at jwsss.com Fri Aug 21 02:39:52 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 00:39:52 -0700 Subject: Symbolics system board and host Mac Message-ID: <55D6D5C8.6040709@jwsss.com> I was going to play dumb and hope this didn't go nuts in price but it did. Anyone here bidding? I'd be interested in one of these just to play with, but will probably try to use the emulator if I ever get the chance to get into it more. VINTAGE-COMPUTER-SYMBOLICS-LISP-MACHINE-MACIVORY-III-APPLE-MACINTOSH-QUADRA-950 http://www.ebay.com/itm/221855233003 From isking at uw.edu Fri Aug 21 05:27:50 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 03:27:50 -0700 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> Message-ID: I had the privilege of visiting what Nico calls a 'museum-to-be' yesterday evening, and it is far more than most of what I've seen! They have a very substantial collection of all sorts of systems, peripherals and documentation, including a GIER from ca. 1962 that I saw (and heard) run. As a debugging/operations aid, they had attached the overflow bit to a speaker so it could generate 1-bit sound - one demo they gave me was a program to calculate e that played a sound for each iteration so you could hear the steady progress. But of course if there is a sound output, no one can avoid playing with it. There were numerous pieces of computationally generated music composed for the machine (on paper tape), but also a program for playing a recorded, real-life sound in 1-bit audio! The collection includes numerous other computers including pretty much the entire RC line, as well as pre-computer tabulators, keypunches, paper handling machine and the like. The artifacts are well-ordered and in large part well labeled for even the uninitiated visitor. Everything is laid out quite thoughtfully, with wide aisles, in a large, well-lit basement. There are interpretive displays here and there, as well as a small but appealing lecture/display area. The datamuseum.dk collection represents 25 years of accumulation, I was told. But more importantly, I think their work demonstrates a very well-considered approach for presenting the history of the collection's machines to visitors. My hosts were also warm and wonderful people who clearly love what they do and enjoy sharing it. They made me feel among friends, if not family. :-) Thanks, Finn and everyone else (sorry, I'm bad with names), for sharing your time and your passion with me! -- Ian On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:43 AM, Nico de Jong wrote: > I share your favourite(s). In the danish IT-museum-to-be ( > www.datamuseum.dk) we have two P857-based systems running. We have lots > of spare parts and nearly all documentation, so if you need something, you > are welcome to ask. > I'm presently building a "table top" version of a system with the P857 > CPU, 35cm H x 60 deep x 19" wide, with a dual 8" floppy drive, and a 80486 > PC for program loading etc. > The system is built into a P859 box. The P859 CPU is special, as it has a > V24 connection that goes to a LED display with push buttons. Very nice > indeed. > For that system, I have developped a Windows based Assembler, and a > Windows based simulator. The simulator takes assembled programs (in my > system called *.OBJ) and the original source. You can then step through the > instructions, and follow them through the text file on the PC. > I am presently trying to execute various utility programs, sent to me by a > Belgion ex-Philips employee, who did a lot of work on the P800 series. > I myself worked with the P800 series, disguised as the PTS6800 series for > 4-5 years full time. > The PTS 6800 series was used extensively in banks, mainly in Scandinavia, > Greece, Barclay SouthAfrica, Philippines. In Sweden also in the airline > industry. In Denmark it was used mainly by local authorities, PTT, Railway > (ticket printing), and some other small-time projects. In one of the > project it was connected to an ATM (fun project). > I know of one collector in the Netherlands (Camiel), and some guys who > have no hardware but a lot of knowledge > /Nico > ----- Original Message ----- > From: tony duell > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 7:31 AM > Subject: RE: out-of-mainstream minis > > > Not all minis came from the States :-) > > One of my favourite non-mainstream families is the Philips P800 series. > It's > a 16 bit machine with 16 registers (0 is the program counter and 15 > is the stack pointer, rest are mostly general purpose) and separate > I/O instructions (not memory-mapped I/O). There were several models > with various implementations of the architecture, including > > P850 (TTL, hardwired not microcoded) > > P855, P852, P856, P857, P860 (TTL, microcoded) > > P851 (Custom bitslice ICs, microcoded) > > P854 (AM2900 bitslice, microcoded) > > P853 I think (Single chip) > > No, I don't have all of those... > > -tony > = > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Aug 21 05:40:49 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:40:49 +0100 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <55D70031.9050307@btinternet.com> I'm sure its very intersting. The website is designed for domestic consumption only as its all in Danish. Rod On 21/08/2015 11:27, Ian S. King wrote: > I had the privilege of visiting what Nico calls a 'museum-to-be' yesterday > evening, and it is far more than most of what I've seen! They have a very > substantial collection of all sorts of systems, peripherals and > documentation, including a GIER from ca. 1962 that I saw (and heard) run. > As a debugging/operations aid, they had attached the overflow bit to a > speaker so it could generate 1-bit sound - one demo they gave me was a > program to calculate e that played a sound for each iteration so you could > hear the steady progress. But of course if there is a sound output, no one > can avoid playing with it. There were numerous pieces of computationally > generated music composed for the machine (on paper tape), but also a > program for playing a recorded, real-life sound in 1-bit audio! > > The collection includes numerous other computers including pretty much the > entire RC line, as well as pre-computer tabulators, keypunches, paper > handling machine and the like. The artifacts are well-ordered and in large > part well labeled for even the uninitiated visitor. > > Everything is laid out quite thoughtfully, with wide aisles, in a large, > well-lit basement. There are interpretive displays here and there, as well > as a small but appealing lecture/display area. > > The datamuseum.dk collection represents 25 years of accumulation, I was > told. But more importantly, I think their work demonstrates a very > well-considered approach for presenting the history of the collection's > machines to visitors. > > My hosts were also warm and wonderful people who clearly love what they do > and enjoy sharing it. They made me feel among friends, if not family. :-) > > > Thanks, Finn and everyone else (sorry, I'm bad with names), for sharing > your time and your passion with me! -- Ian > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:43 AM, Nico de Jong wrote: > >> I share your favourite(s). In the danish IT-museum-to-be ( >> www.datamuseum.dk) we have two P857-based systems running. We have lots >> of spare parts and nearly all documentation, so if you need something, you >> are welcome to ask. >> I'm presently building a "table top" version of a system with the P857 >> CPU, 35cm H x 60 deep x 19" wide, with a dual 8" floppy drive, and a 80486 >> PC for program loading etc. >> The system is built into a P859 box. The P859 CPU is special, as it has a >> V24 connection that goes to a LED display with push buttons. Very nice >> indeed. >> For that system, I have developped a Windows based Assembler, and a >> Windows based simulator. The simulator takes assembled programs (in my >> system called *.OBJ) and the original source. You can then step through the >> instructions, and follow them through the text file on the PC. >> I am presently trying to execute various utility programs, sent to me by a >> Belgion ex-Philips employee, who did a lot of work on the P800 series. >> I myself worked with the P800 series, disguised as the PTS6800 series for >> 4-5 years full time. >> The PTS 6800 series was used extensively in banks, mainly in Scandinavia, >> Greece, Barclay SouthAfrica, Philippines. In Sweden also in the airline >> industry. In Denmark it was used mainly by local authorities, PTT, Railway >> (ticket printing), and some other small-time projects. In one of the >> project it was connected to an ATM (fun project). >> I know of one collector in the Netherlands (Camiel), and some guys who >> have no hardware but a lot of knowledge >> /Nico >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: tony duell >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 7:31 AM >> Subject: RE: out-of-mainstream minis >> >> >> Not all minis came from the States :-) >> >> One of my favourite non-mainstream families is the Philips P800 series. >> It's >> a 16 bit machine with 16 registers (0 is the program counter and 15 >> is the stack pointer, rest are mostly general purpose) and separate >> I/O instructions (not memory-mapped I/O). There were several models >> with various implementations of the architecture, including >> >> P850 (TTL, hardwired not microcoded) >> >> P855, P852, P856, P857, P860 (TTL, microcoded) >> >> P851 (Custom bitslice ICs, microcoded) >> >> P854 (AM2900 bitslice, microcoded) >> >> P853 I think (Single chip) >> >> No, I don't have all of those... >> >> -tony >> = >> > > From pete at pski.net Fri Aug 21 06:00:23 2015 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 07:00:23 -0400 Subject: 8-inch alignment floppy wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:02 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Does anyone have a spare 8-inch alignment floppy they'd be willing to > sell? I'd prefer a double-sided one, but even a single-sided would be > better than nothing. You can get new ones from www.accurite.com if you can't find a used one. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 07:35:58 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:35:58 +0100 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: <55D70031.9050307@btinternet.com> References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> <55D70031.9050307@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <01df01d0dc0d$ee882610$cb987230$@gmail.com> Google Translate does a reasonable job... http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdatamuseum.dk%2Fddhf-samlinger&edit-text=&act=url Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > Smallwood > Sent: 21 August 2015 11:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: out-of-mainstream minis > > I'm sure its very intersting. > The website is designed for domestic consumption only as its all in Danish. > > Rod > > > On 21/08/2015 11:27, Ian S. King wrote: > > I had the privilege of visiting what Nico calls a 'museum-to-be' > > yesterday evening, and it is far more than most of what I've seen! > > They have a very substantial collection of all sorts of systems, > > peripherals and documentation, including a GIER from ca. 1962 that I saw > (and heard) run. > > As a debugging/operations aid, they had attached the overflow bit to a > > speaker so it could generate 1-bit sound - one demo they gave me was a > > program to calculate e that played a sound for each iteration so you > > could hear the steady progress. But of course if there is a sound > > output, no one can avoid playing with it. There were numerous pieces > > of computationally generated music composed for the machine (on paper > > tape), but also a program for playing a recorded, real-life sound in 1-bit > audio! > > > > The collection includes numerous other computers including pretty much > > the entire RC line, as well as pre-computer tabulators, keypunches, > > paper handling machine and the like. The artifacts are well-ordered > > and in large part well labeled for even the uninitiated visitor. > > > > Everything is laid out quite thoughtfully, with wide aisles, in a > > large, well-lit basement. There are interpretive displays here and > > there, as well as a small but appealing lecture/display area. > > > > The datamuseum.dk collection represents 25 years of accumulation, I > > was told. But more importantly, I think their work demonstrates a > > very well-considered approach for presenting the history of the > > collection's machines to visitors. > > > > My hosts were also warm and wonderful people who clearly love what > > they do and enjoy sharing it. They made me feel among friends, if not > > family. :-) > > > > > > Thanks, Finn and everyone else (sorry, I'm bad with names), for > > sharing your time and your passion with me! -- Ian > > > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:43 AM, Nico de Jong wrote: > > > >> I share your favourite(s). In the danish IT-museum-to-be ( > >> www.datamuseum.dk) we have two P857-based systems running. We > have > >> lots of spare parts and nearly all documentation, so if you need > >> something, you are welcome to ask. > >> I'm presently building a "table top" version of a system with the > >> P857 CPU, 35cm H x 60 deep x 19" wide, with a dual 8" floppy drive, > >> and a 80486 PC for program loading etc. > >> The system is built into a P859 box. The P859 CPU is special, as it > >> has a > >> V24 connection that goes to a LED display with push buttons. Very > >> nice indeed. > >> For that system, I have developped a Windows based Assembler, and a > >> Windows based simulator. The simulator takes assembled programs (in > >> my system called *.OBJ) and the original source. You can then step > >> through the instructions, and follow them through the text file on the PC. > >> I am presently trying to execute various utility programs, sent to me > >> by a Belgion ex-Philips employee, who did a lot of work on the P800 > series. > >> I myself worked with the P800 series, disguised as the PTS6800 series > >> for > >> 4-5 years full time. > >> The PTS 6800 series was used extensively in banks, mainly in > >> Scandinavia, Greece, Barclay SouthAfrica, Philippines. In Sweden also > >> in the airline industry. In Denmark it was used mainly by local > >> authorities, PTT, Railway (ticket printing), and some other > >> small-time projects. In one of the project it was connected to an ATM (fun > project). > >> I know of one collector in the Netherlands (Camiel), and some guys > >> who have no hardware but a lot of knowledge /Nico > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: tony duell > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 7:31 AM > >> Subject: RE: out-of-mainstream minis > >> > >> > >> Not all minis came from the States :-) > >> > >> One of my favourite non-mainstream families is the Philips P800 series. > >> It's > >> a 16 bit machine with 16 registers (0 is the program counter and 15 > >> is the stack pointer, rest are mostly general purpose) and separate > >> I/O instructions (not memory-mapped I/O). There were several models > >> with various implementations of the architecture, including > >> > >> P850 (TTL, hardwired not microcoded) > >> > >> P855, P852, P856, P857, P860 (TTL, microcoded) > >> > >> P851 (Custom bitslice ICs, microcoded) > >> > >> P854 (AM2900 bitslice, microcoded) > >> > >> P853 I think (Single chip) > >> > >> No, I don't have all of those... > >> > >> -tony > >> = > >> > > > > From ben at bensinclair.com Fri Aug 21 08:50:42 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 08:50:42 -0500 Subject: Cheap board guy In-Reply-To: <55D6CF99.7040905@jwsss.com> References: <55D6CF99.7040905@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Wow, he's found some great stuff! He also has that same floppy drive tower that I posted about a while back. His even has the wood top! On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 2:13 AM, jim s wrote: > > I have the following from the gold scrapper guy so far... > Great tip. Wonder if anyone else partook of the tipoff. > > Thanks > Jim > > http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2015/08/dec-boards-kdj11-2-kdf11-and-motorola.html > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Aug 21 09:30:59 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:30:59 +0100 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: <01df01d0dc0d$ee882610$cb987230$@gmail.com> References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> <55D70031.9050307@btinternet.com> <01df01d0dc0d$ee882610$cb987230$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55D73623.6080504@btinternet.com> Hi Yes I know, but its not the norm to link from an English language email to a site in another language with no warning. I suppose they think everybody speaks Danish. You could be heading into some real dark places without knowing. Rule 16b never logon to a site you cant read. Rod On 21/08/2015 13:35, Dave G4UGM wrote: > Google Translate does a reasonable job... > > http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdatamuseum.dk%2Fddhf-samlinger&edit-text=&act=url > > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >> Smallwood >> Sent: 21 August 2015 11:41 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: out-of-mainstream minis >> >> I'm sure its very intersting. >> The website is designed for domestic consumption only as its all in Danish. >> >> Rod >> >> >> On 21/08/2015 11:27, Ian S. King wrote: >>> I had the privilege of visiting what Nico calls a 'museum-to-be' >>> yesterday evening, and it is far more than most of what I've seen! >>> They have a very substantial collection of all sorts of systems, >>> peripherals and documentation, including a GIER from ca. 1962 that I saw >> (and heard) run. >>> As a debugging/operations aid, they had attached the overflow bit to a >>> speaker so it could generate 1-bit sound - one demo they gave me was a >>> program to calculate e that played a sound for each iteration so you >>> could hear the steady progress. But of course if there is a sound >>> output, no one can avoid playing with it. There were numerous pieces >>> of computationally generated music composed for the machine (on paper >>> tape), but also a program for playing a recorded, real-life sound in 1-bit >> audio! >>> The collection includes numerous other computers including pretty much >>> the entire RC line, as well as pre-computer tabulators, keypunches, >>> paper handling machine and the like. The artifacts are well-ordered >>> and in large part well labeled for even the uninitiated visitor. >>> >>> Everything is laid out quite thoughtfully, with wide aisles, in a >>> large, well-lit basement. There are interpretive displays here and >>> there, as well as a small but appealing lecture/display area. >>> >>> The datamuseum.dk collection represents 25 years of accumulation, I >>> was told. But more importantly, I think their work demonstrates a >>> very well-considered approach for presenting the history of the >>> collection's machines to visitors. >>> >>> My hosts were also warm and wonderful people who clearly love what >>> they do and enjoy sharing it. They made me feel among friends, if not >>> family. :-) >>> >>> >>> Thanks, Finn and everyone else (sorry, I'm bad with names), for >>> sharing your time and your passion with me! -- Ian >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:43 AM, Nico de Jong wrote: >>> >>>> I share your favourite(s). In the danish IT-museum-to-be ( >>>> www.datamuseum.dk) we have two P857-based systems running. We >> have >>>> lots of spare parts and nearly all documentation, so if you need >>>> something, you are welcome to ask. >>>> I'm presently building a "table top" version of a system with the >>>> P857 CPU, 35cm H x 60 deep x 19" wide, with a dual 8" floppy drive, >>>> and a 80486 PC for program loading etc. >>>> The system is built into a P859 box. The P859 CPU is special, as it >>>> has a >>>> V24 connection that goes to a LED display with push buttons. Very >>>> nice indeed. >>>> For that system, I have developped a Windows based Assembler, and a >>>> Windows based simulator. The simulator takes assembled programs (in >>>> my system called *.OBJ) and the original source. You can then step >>>> through the instructions, and follow them through the text file on the PC. >>>> I am presently trying to execute various utility programs, sent to me >>>> by a Belgion ex-Philips employee, who did a lot of work on the P800 >> series. >>>> I myself worked with the P800 series, disguised as the PTS6800 series >>>> for >>>> 4-5 years full time. >>>> The PTS 6800 series was used extensively in banks, mainly in >>>> Scandinavia, Greece, Barclay SouthAfrica, Philippines. In Sweden also >>>> in the airline industry. In Denmark it was used mainly by local >>>> authorities, PTT, Railway (ticket printing), and some other >>>> small-time projects. In one of the project it was connected to an ATM (fun >> project). >>>> I know of one collector in the Netherlands (Camiel), and some guys >>>> who have no hardware but a lot of knowledge /Nico >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: tony duell >>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 7:31 AM >>>> Subject: RE: out-of-mainstream minis >>>> >>>> >>>> Not all minis came from the States :-) >>>> >>>> One of my favourite non-mainstream families is the Philips P800 series. >>>> It's >>>> a 16 bit machine with 16 registers (0 is the program counter and 15 >>>> is the stack pointer, rest are mostly general purpose) and separate >>>> I/O instructions (not memory-mapped I/O). There were several models >>>> with various implementations of the architecture, including >>>> >>>> P850 (TTL, hardwired not microcoded) >>>> >>>> P855, P852, P856, P857, P860 (TTL, microcoded) >>>> >>>> P851 (Custom bitslice ICs, microcoded) >>>> >>>> P854 (AM2900 bitslice, microcoded) >>>> >>>> P853 I think (Single chip) >>>> >>>> No, I don't have all of those... >>>> >>>> -tony >>>> = >>>> >>> > From starbase89 at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 09:45:14 2015 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 10:45:14 -0400 Subject: maybe OT: Powerbook 5300 OS upgrade Message-ID: Greetings! I know that many of my posts to this list tend to be on the fringes of what is normally discussed here. I apologize in advance if this is too new for the group. I am trying to get my Powerbook 5300 up and running as a usable word processor (with portable printer) for school and for email. It is currently running System 7.5.2. The machine is capable of supporting MacOS 9.1, but my goal is 8.6. I see them talking on lowendmac that upgrading the OS makes the machine more solid, but it doesn't explain how to do it. The machine only has a floppy drive and no networking. Were there any system 8.6 install floppies? I can't think of another way to get it on there. TIA Joe From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Aug 21 09:45:05 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 10:45:05 -0400 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: <55D73623.6080504@btinternet.com> References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> <55D70031.9050307@btinternet.com> <01df01d0dc0d$ee882610$cb987230$@gmail.com> <55D73623.6080504@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <55D73971.6020904@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-08-21 10:30 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Hi > > Yes I know, but its not the norm to link from an English language email > to a site in another language with no warning. > I suppose they think everybody speaks Danish. > > You could be heading into some real dark places without knowing. Rule > 16b never logon to a site you cant read. No "darker" than any English language site. --Toby > > Rod > > > On 21/08/2015 13:35, Dave G4UGM wrote: >> Google Translate does a reasonable job... >> >> http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdatamuseum.dk%2Fddhf-samlinger&edit-text=&act=url >> >> >> Dave >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >>> Smallwood >>> Sent: 21 August 2015 11:41 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> Subject: Re: out-of-mainstream minis >>> >>> I'm sure its very intersting. >>> The website is designed for domestic consumption only as its all in >>> Danish. >>> >>> Rod >>> >>> >>> On 21/08/2015 11:27, Ian S. King wrote: >>>> I had the privilege of visiting what Nico calls a 'museum-to-be' >>>> yesterday evening, and it is far more than most of what I've seen! >>>> They have a very substantial collection of all sorts of systems, >>>> peripherals and documentation, including a GIER from ca. 1962 that I >>>> saw >>> (and heard) run. >>>> As a debugging/operations aid, they had attached the overflow bit to a >>>> speaker so it could generate 1-bit sound - one demo they gave me was a >>>> program to calculate e that played a sound for each iteration so you >>>> could hear the steady progress. But of course if there is a sound >>>> output, no one can avoid playing with it. There were numerous pieces >>>> of computationally generated music composed for the machine (on paper >>>> tape), but also a program for playing a recorded, real-life sound in >>>> 1-bit >>> audio! >>>> The collection includes numerous other computers including pretty much >>>> the entire RC line, as well as pre-computer tabulators, keypunches, >>>> paper handling machine and the like. The artifacts are well-ordered >>>> and in large part well labeled for even the uninitiated visitor. >>>> >>>> Everything is laid out quite thoughtfully, with wide aisles, in a >>>> large, well-lit basement. There are interpretive displays here and >>>> there, as well as a small but appealing lecture/display area. >>>> >>>> The datamuseum.dk collection represents 25 years of accumulation, I >>>> was told. But more importantly, I think their work demonstrates a >>>> very well-considered approach for presenting the history of the >>>> collection's machines to visitors. >>>> >>>> My hosts were also warm and wonderful people who clearly love what >>>> they do and enjoy sharing it. They made me feel among friends, if not >>>> family. :-) >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, Finn and everyone else (sorry, I'm bad with names), for >>>> sharing your time and your passion with me! -- Ian >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:43 AM, Nico de Jong >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I share your favourite(s). In the danish IT-museum-to-be ( >>>>> www.datamuseum.dk) we have two P857-based systems running. We >>> have >>>>> lots of spare parts and nearly all documentation, so if you need >>>>> something, you are welcome to ask. >>>>> I'm presently building a "table top" version of a system with the >>>>> P857 CPU, 35cm H x 60 deep x 19" wide, with a dual 8" floppy drive, >>>>> and a 80486 PC for program loading etc. >>>>> The system is built into a P859 box. The P859 CPU is special, as it >>>>> has a >>>>> V24 connection that goes to a LED display with push buttons. Very >>>>> nice indeed. >>>>> For that system, I have developped a Windows based Assembler, and a >>>>> Windows based simulator. The simulator takes assembled programs (in >>>>> my system called *.OBJ) and the original source. You can then step >>>>> through the instructions, and follow them through the text file on >>>>> the PC. >>>>> I am presently trying to execute various utility programs, sent to me >>>>> by a Belgion ex-Philips employee, who did a lot of work on the P800 >>> series. >>>>> I myself worked with the P800 series, disguised as the PTS6800 series >>>>> for >>>>> 4-5 years full time. >>>>> The PTS 6800 series was used extensively in banks, mainly in >>>>> Scandinavia, Greece, Barclay SouthAfrica, Philippines. In Sweden also >>>>> in the airline industry. In Denmark it was used mainly by local >>>>> authorities, PTT, Railway (ticket printing), and some other >>>>> small-time projects. In one of the project it was connected to an >>>>> ATM (fun >>> project). >>>>> I know of one collector in the Netherlands (Camiel), and some guys >>>>> who have no hardware but a lot of knowledge /Nico >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: tony duell >>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 7:31 AM >>>>> Subject: RE: out-of-mainstream minis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Not all minis came from the States :-) >>>>> >>>>> One of my favourite non-mainstream families is the Philips P800 >>>>> series. >>>>> It's >>>>> a 16 bit machine with 16 registers (0 is the program counter >>>>> and 15 >>>>> is the stack pointer, rest are mostly general purpose) and >>>>> separate >>>>> I/O instructions (not memory-mapped I/O). There were several >>>>> models >>>>> with various implementations of the architecture, including >>>>> >>>>> P850 (TTL, hardwired not microcoded) >>>>> >>>>> P855, P852, P856, P857, P860 (TTL, microcoded) >>>>> >>>>> P851 (Custom bitslice ICs, microcoded) >>>>> >>>>> P854 (AM2900 bitslice, microcoded) >>>>> >>>>> P853 I think (Single chip) >>>>> >>>>> No, I don't have all of those... >>>>> >>>>> -tony >>>>> = >>>>> >>>> >> > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Aug 21 09:51:13 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:51:13 +0100 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: <55D73971.6020904@telegraphics.com.au> References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> <55D70031.9050307@btinternet.com> <01df01d0dc0d$ee882610$cb987230$@gmail.com> <55D73623.6080504@btinternet.com> <55D73971.6020904@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <55D73AE1.9030407@btinternet.com> Yes indeed "danger wears a coat of many colours" Rod On 21/08/2015 15:45, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2015-08-21 10:30 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> Yes I know, but its not the norm to link from an English language email >> to a site in another language with no warning. >> I suppose they think everybody speaks Danish. >> >> You could be heading into some real dark places without knowing. Rule >> 16b never logon to a site you cant read. > > No "darker" than any English language site. > > > --Toby > > >> >> Rod >> >> >> On 21/08/2015 13:35, Dave G4UGM wrote: >>> Google Translate does a reasonable job... >>> >>> http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdatamuseum.dk%2Fddhf-samlinger&edit-text=&act=url >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >>>> Smallwood >>>> Sent: 21 August 2015 11:41 >>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: out-of-mainstream minis >>>> >>>> I'm sure its very intersting. >>>> The website is designed for domestic consumption only as its all in >>>> Danish. >>>> >>>> Rod >>>> >>>> >>>> On 21/08/2015 11:27, Ian S. King wrote: >>>>> I had the privilege of visiting what Nico calls a 'museum-to-be' >>>>> yesterday evening, and it is far more than most of what I've seen! >>>>> They have a very substantial collection of all sorts of systems, >>>>> peripherals and documentation, including a GIER from ca. 1962 that I >>>>> saw >>>> (and heard) run. >>>>> As a debugging/operations aid, they had attached the overflow bit >>>>> to a >>>>> speaker so it could generate 1-bit sound - one demo they gave me >>>>> was a >>>>> program to calculate e that played a sound for each iteration so you >>>>> could hear the steady progress. But of course if there is a sound >>>>> output, no one can avoid playing with it. There were numerous pieces >>>>> of computationally generated music composed for the machine (on paper >>>>> tape), but also a program for playing a recorded, real-life sound in >>>>> 1-bit >>>> audio! >>>>> The collection includes numerous other computers including pretty >>>>> much >>>>> the entire RC line, as well as pre-computer tabulators, keypunches, >>>>> paper handling machine and the like. The artifacts are well-ordered >>>>> and in large part well labeled for even the uninitiated visitor. >>>>> >>>>> Everything is laid out quite thoughtfully, with wide aisles, in a >>>>> large, well-lit basement. There are interpretive displays here and >>>>> there, as well as a small but appealing lecture/display area. >>>>> >>>>> The datamuseum.dk collection represents 25 years of accumulation, I >>>>> was told. But more importantly, I think their work demonstrates a >>>>> very well-considered approach for presenting the history of the >>>>> collection's machines to visitors. >>>>> >>>>> My hosts were also warm and wonderful people who clearly love what >>>>> they do and enjoy sharing it. They made me feel among friends, if >>>>> not >>>>> family. :-) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, Finn and everyone else (sorry, I'm bad with names), for >>>>> sharing your time and your passion with me! -- Ian >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:43 AM, Nico de Jong >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I share your favourite(s). In the danish IT-museum-to-be ( >>>>>> www.datamuseum.dk) we have two P857-based systems running. We >>>> have >>>>>> lots of spare parts and nearly all documentation, so if you need >>>>>> something, you are welcome to ask. >>>>>> I'm presently building a "table top" version of a system with the >>>>>> P857 CPU, 35cm H x 60 deep x 19" wide, with a dual 8" floppy drive, >>>>>> and a 80486 PC for program loading etc. >>>>>> The system is built into a P859 box. The P859 CPU is special, as it >>>>>> has a >>>>>> V24 connection that goes to a LED display with push buttons. Very >>>>>> nice indeed. >>>>>> For that system, I have developped a Windows based Assembler, and a >>>>>> Windows based simulator. The simulator takes assembled programs (in >>>>>> my system called *.OBJ) and the original source. You can then step >>>>>> through the instructions, and follow them through the text file on >>>>>> the PC. >>>>>> I am presently trying to execute various utility programs, sent >>>>>> to me >>>>>> by a Belgion ex-Philips employee, who did a lot of work on the P800 >>>> series. >>>>>> I myself worked with the P800 series, disguised as the PTS6800 >>>>>> series >>>>>> for >>>>>> 4-5 years full time. >>>>>> The PTS 6800 series was used extensively in banks, mainly in >>>>>> Scandinavia, Greece, Barclay SouthAfrica, Philippines. In Sweden >>>>>> also >>>>>> in the airline industry. In Denmark it was used mainly by local >>>>>> authorities, PTT, Railway (ticket printing), and some other >>>>>> small-time projects. In one of the project it was connected to an >>>>>> ATM (fun >>>> project). >>>>>> I know of one collector in the Netherlands (Camiel), and some guys >>>>>> who have no hardware but a lot of knowledge /Nico >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: tony duell >>>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 7:31 AM >>>>>> Subject: RE: out-of-mainstream minis >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Not all minis came from the States :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> One of my favourite non-mainstream families is the Philips P800 >>>>>> series. >>>>>> It's >>>>>> a 16 bit machine with 16 registers (0 is the program counter >>>>>> and 15 >>>>>> is the stack pointer, rest are mostly general purpose) and >>>>>> separate >>>>>> I/O instructions (not memory-mapped I/O). There were several >>>>>> models >>>>>> with various implementations of the architecture, including >>>>>> >>>>>> P850 (TTL, hardwired not microcoded) >>>>>> >>>>>> P855, P852, P856, P857, P860 (TTL, microcoded) >>>>>> >>>>>> P851 (Custom bitslice ICs, microcoded) >>>>>> >>>>>> P854 (AM2900 bitslice, microcoded) >>>>>> >>>>>> P853 I think (Single chip) >>>>>> >>>>>> No, I don't have all of those... >>>>>> >>>>>> -tony >>>>>> = >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> >> > From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 09:54:53 2015 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 09:54:53 -0500 Subject: maybe OT: Powerbook 5300 OS upgrade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does the 5300 have SCSI? An external CD drive would be one option. Also, if there's enough HD space (and you're patient enough for the transfer) you could set up a Telnet connection and file share. -C On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Greetings! > > I know that many of my posts to this list tend to be on the fringes of what > is normally discussed here. I apologize in advance if this is too new for > the group. > > I am trying to get my Powerbook 5300 up and running as a usable word > processor (with portable printer) for school and for email. It is currently > running System 7.5.2. The machine is capable of supporting MacOS 9.1, but > my goal is 8.6. I see them talking on lowendmac that upgrading the OS makes > the machine more solid, but it doesn't explain how to do it. The machine > only has a floppy drive and no networking. Were there any system 8.6 > install floppies? I can't think of another way to get it on there. > > TIA > Joe > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Aug 21 09:55:31 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 10:55:31 -0400 Subject: maybe OT: Powerbook 5300 OS upgrade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Joe, System 8 and subsequent were only available on CD-ROM. I think newest you can get on floppies is 7.5.3 or 7.5.5. You should be able to do the installation no problem with an external [Apple] SCSI CD-ROM. Might also work from a Localtalk share, if you have another Mac available? I don't know if I've ever tried that. Best, Sean On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 10:45 AM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Greetings! > > I know that many of my posts to this list tend to be on the fringes of what > is normally discussed here. I apologize in advance if this is too new for > the group. > > I am trying to get my Powerbook 5300 up and running as a usable word > processor (with portable printer) for school and for email. It is currently > running System 7.5.2. The machine is capable of supporting MacOS 9.1, but > my goal is 8.6. I see them talking on lowendmac that upgrading the OS makes > the machine more solid, but it doesn't explain how to do it. The machine > only has a floppy drive and no networking. Were there any system 8.6 > install floppies? I can't think of another way to get it on there. > > TIA > Joe > From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 21 09:57:32 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 10:57:32 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> Message-ID: <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> > Years ago I needed a HP service manual for a plotter I was trying to > repair that I owned. HP of course wouldn't let me have it, so I had to > buy a PDF copy from someone on eBay. I ended up removing the password > and posting it on my website. That's called "stealing". > The more of it turned free, the better. True, but you can't just take the law into your own hands. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 21 09:59:48 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 07:59:48 -0700 Subject: maybe OT: Powerbook 5300 OS upgrade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <124F4A50-0050-4257-863F-D48B3E27044C@aracnet.com> > On Aug 21, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > > Greetings! > > I know that many of my posts to this list tend to be on the fringes of what > is normally discussed here. I apologize in advance if this is too new for > the group. > > I am trying to get my Powerbook 5300 up and running as a usable word > processor (with portable printer) for school and for email. It is currently > running System 7.5.2. The machine is capable of supporting MacOS 9.1, but > my goal is 8.6. I see them talking on lowendmac that upgrading the OS makes > the machine more solid, but it doesn't explain how to do it. The machine > only has a floppy drive and no networking. Were there any system 8.6 > install floppies? I can't think of another way to get it on there. > > TIA > Joe If I remember right your limited to CD. Even on my 520c, I was able to attach an external SCSI CD-ROM drive. It was pretty much a requirement. I'd say, definitely get it onto 8.x. I'm not sure how this is on the fringes for the list, as the system is nearly 20 years old. Zane From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 21 10:00:45 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:00:45 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> > Copyright violation is not theft. ... The PDF "sellers" are not selling their property; they are selling > right-to-copy. And "escorts" aren't hookers because they sell their time, not the sex, right? From ethan at 757.org Fri Aug 21 10:02:44 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> Message-ID: > That's called "stealing". The person I had to buy the CD from off of ebay wasn't authorized to sell it. They're "authorized service center employees" (often times in Russia) that have access to special web portals of all the service documents. They then sell them. *Shrug* I bought the manual and freed it. Then bought the belt from HP by part number, which is all I needed from the manual in the first place. > True, but you can't just take the law into your own hands. I don't see it as that dire. If I were the law, I'd make it so the service manual has to be included with every product! From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 21 10:18:22 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:18:22 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> Message-ID: <55D7413E.1030908@snarc.net> >> That's called "stealing". > > The person I had to buy the CD from off of ebay wasn't authorized to > sell it. That's a cop-out. "Someone else did it first" doesn't change the law. > and freed it "Freed" is a euphemism. I'm not saying you should be in federal lock-up with Jared from Subway. :) But don't pretend to not understand that what you did is illegal. From pete at pski.net Fri Aug 21 10:21:33 2015 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:21:33 -0400 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright References: Message-ID: This discussion on the legality of sharing manuals, PDFs, etc. leads me to think about the vintage computing hobby as a whole. While we all encourage the hobby to grow, the downside is that as it does, the software copyright holders may start to take notice. As a developer of modern systems who expects to be paid for my work (except what I share with the community of course) I am in a conundrum because the hobby cannot succeed without the large collection of easily accessible vintage software available yet there is no way to ?buy? most of it today. But, we would also not expect or would we pay 1980s retail prices. I know some generous copyright owners have allowed unrestricted use of their old software, like Roy Soltoff from Misosys, but many others have not or have disappeared. I?m fairly new to the hobby so maybe this has already been hashed out years ago. Just wondering what the community thinks. From julian at twinax.org Fri Aug 21 10:23:39 2015 From: julian at twinax.org (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 10:23:39 -0500 Subject: R: DECdatasystem 534 (11/34) and VT52 for sale at VCF Midwest 10 In-Reply-To: References: <9lfnrxjtxtafe6j3sd019hyr.1440092228030@email.android.com> Message-ID: The VT52 and DECdatasystem are spoken for. Please, no more offers. On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 3:59 PM, william degnan wrote: > Working on my vt50 yesterday. 50 and 52's are nice giant glass terminal > replacements to asr33. From the perspective of the teletype small, zenith > 19 or vt100, huge! The last great old school terminal. > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > On Aug 20, 2015 3:02 PM, "Jason T" wrote: > > > On Aug 20, 2015 12:37 PM, "supervinx" wrote: > > > > > > Location? > > > > Near Chicago, Illinois, USA. > > > From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Aug 21 10:27:26 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:27:26 +0200 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D7435E.8090707@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-21 17:21, Peter Cetinski wrote: > This discussion on the legality of sharing manuals, PDFs, etc. leads me to think about the vintage computing hobby as a whole. While we all encourage the hobby to grow, the downside is that as it does, the software copyright holders may start to take notice. As a developer of modern systems who expects to be paid for my work (except what I share with the community of course) I am in a conundrum because the hobby cannot succeed without the large collection of easily accessible vintage software available yet there is no way to ?buy? most of it today. But, we would also not expect or would we pay 1980s retail prices. I know some generous copyright owners have allowed unrestricted use of their old software, like Roy Soltoff from Misosys, but many others have not or have disappeared. I?m fairly new to the hobby so maybe this has already been hashed out years ago. Just wondering what the community thinks. My opinion is that people should not try to pretend that their actions are legal when they are not. While I support work to preserve things, we really need to get permission from copyright owners before just letting thing out freely. I know DEC made a general permission to copy and distribute out-of-print manuals. They also made some software freely available. I believe pretty much all PDP-8 software is in there. Some restricted distributions of PDP-11 software was also made available, but the majority of PDP-11 software is still under copyright and with no permission to redistribute (DEC sold it). PDP-10 software I think were sold off as well. Not sure about other parts. And I don't know much about anything for non-DEC stuff. So while I hope there are copies of stuff around, think some before redistributing it. Johnny From starbase89 at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 10:30:25 2015 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:30:25 -0400 Subject: maybe OT: Powerbook 5300 OS upgrade In-Reply-To: <124F4A50-0050-4257-863F-D48B3E27044C@aracnet.com> References: <124F4A50-0050-4257-863F-D48B3E27044C@aracnet.com> Message-ID: I guess I'll be trolling ebay for a bit for a drive. Thanks Guys! On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Aug 21, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > > > > Greetings! > > > > I know that many of my posts to this list tend to be on the fringes of > what > > is normally discussed here. I apologize in advance if this is too new for > > the group. > > > > I am trying to get my Powerbook 5300 up and running as a usable word > > processor (with portable printer) for school and for email. It is > currently > > running System 7.5.2. The machine is capable of supporting MacOS 9.1, but > > my goal is 8.6. I see them talking on lowendmac that upgrading the OS > makes > > the machine more solid, but it doesn't explain how to do it. The machine > > only has a floppy drive and no networking. Were there any system 8.6 > > install floppies? I can't think of another way to get it on there. > > > > TIA > > Joe > > If I remember right your limited to CD. Even on my 520c, I was able to > attach an external SCSI CD-ROM drive. It was pretty much a requirement. > I'd say, definitely get it onto 8.x. > > I'm not sure how this is on the fringes for the list, as the system is > nearly 20 years old. > > Zane > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 21 10:36:21 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 08:36:21 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net> References: , , , <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net>, , <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net>, , <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net> Message-ID: I was going to add something but it has already been said several times. I will add that if using a LED on an AC like signal of high voltage, one should use a diode. I recommend using a shunt diode rather than a series diode when high voltages are being dropped by the resistor. It reduces the need for a high voltage diode but makes the resistor hotter. Some red LEDs glow orange when not protected from 12VAC. You can ask how I know. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 21 10:36:55 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:36:55 +0000 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: , , , <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net>, , <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net>, , <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net>, Message-ID: > for a high voltage diode but makes the resistor hotter. > Some red LEDs glow orange when not protected from 12VAC. I discovered (over 35 years ago) that green LEDs glow orange if massively overcurrented (you know what I mean). No they don't last long like that. It doesn't appear to be a thermal effect though. -tony From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 10:40:43 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 08:40:43 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 8:36 AM, dwight wrote: > I was going to add something but it has already been > said several times. > I will add that if using a LED on an AC like signal of high voltage, > one should use a diode. > I recommend using a shunt diode rather than a series diode when > high voltages are being dropped by the resistor. It reduces the need > for a high voltage diode but makes the resistor hotter. > Some red LEDs glow orange when not protected from 12VAC. > You can ask how I know. > Dwight > > You can also turn on all of the pretty blues lights in a UV-erasable PROM by putting it in the PROM burner the wrong way around. -- Charles From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 21 10:42:09 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:42:09 -0400 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D7435E.8090707@update.uu.se> References: <55D7435E.8090707@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > On Aug 21, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-08-21 17:21, Peter Cetinski wrote: >> This discussion on the legality of sharing manuals, PDFs, etc. leads me to think about the vintage computing hobby as a whole. While we all encourage the hobby to grow, the downside is that as it does, the software copyright holders may start to take notice. As a developer of modern systems who expects to be paid for my work (except what I share with the community of course) I am in a conundrum because the hobby cannot succeed without the large collection of easily accessible vintage software available yet there is no way to ?buy? most of it today. But, we would also not expect or would we pay 1980s retail prices. I know some generous copyright owners have allowed unrestricted use of their old software, like Roy Soltoff from Misosys, but many others have not or have disappeared. I?m fairly new to the hobby so maybe this has already been hashed out years ago. Just wondering what the community thinks. > > My opinion is that people should not try to pretend that their actions are legal when they are not. While I support work to preserve things, we really need to get permission from copyright owners before just letting thing out freely. > > I know DEC made a general permission to copy and distribute out-of-print manuals. They also made some software freely available. I believe pretty much all PDP-8 software is in there. Some restricted distributions of PDP-11 software was also made available, but the majority of PDP-11 software is still under copyright and with no permission to redistribute (DEC sold it). Please remember that, in general, a general permission to copy is NOT a waiver of copyright. So those manuals for which there is a permission to copy ARE still under copyright (assuming they were in the first place, which is likely). What you have there is a specific permission granted by the owner (the copyright holder), which allows you to do the things granted, but doesn't allow you to do other things. For example, there may be permission to copy and distribute the document as it stands; that permission may (or may not) include permission to OCR it and distributed the resulting text in different forms. But it may very well disallow creating derived works. On the other hand, if an owner did indeed release a work to the public domain, then you can do anything you want with that work. This may not matter very much in practice, but if you want to apply copyright correctly, you'll want to be careful to use terms like "public domain" and "still under copyright" accurately. paul From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Aug 21 10:42:26 2015 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:42:26 +0100 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D7413E.1030908@snarc.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> <55D7413E.1030908@snarc.net> Message-ID: > That's a cop-out. "Someone else did it first" doesn't change the law. In the general case both of the parties involved are breaking copyright law, and the injured party is whoever holds the copyright (which isn't likely to be the seller or the buyer in this case). In this specific case though, as it's an HP manual, if it's one of the ones that went with Agilent (now Keysight) then they seem to have an enlightened attitude and make their old manuals available and also point to a whole bunch of other places that do the same. So they may well be OK with someone making a manual available ... although I don't see any explicit evidence that they'd be OK with someone *selling* a PDF of one of their historic manuals. Antonio On 21 August 2015 at 16:18, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > That's called "stealing". >>> >> >> The person I had to buy the CD from off of ebay wasn't authorized to sell >> it. >> > > That's a cop-out. "Someone else did it first" doesn't change the law. > > > and freed it >> > > "Freed" is a euphemism. > > I'm not saying you should be in federal lock-up with Jared from Subway. > :) But don't pretend to not understand that what you did is illegal. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 10:44:24 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:44:24 -0400 Subject: Cheap board guy In-Reply-To: References: <55D6CF99.7040905@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 2:13 AM, jim s wrote: > > I have the following from the gold scrapper guy so far... > Great tip. Wonder if anyone else partook of the tipoff. I did not, but I looked at some things long and hard. I was staring at the A614 trying to figure out which analog card it was (thinking of the A618s used here... http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/VC8/VC8.txt) Looking at the 3rd-party memory cards, it appeared to me that the large one with the large chips was for an LSI-11 with the 4K on the CPU card (which is why that card was "missing a row") and the Motorola cards weren't particularly large. They are just fine if you don't have any RAM, but I have a sufficiency of small RAM - what I need is big cards 1MB, 2MB and 4MB to load some machines up for 2BSD (anything I do with RT-11 doesn't really need more than That looks like a great haul. I hope they are working cards. That also held me back from buying... I don't need more DEC projects right now. I have plenty to fix already. -ethan From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Aug 21 10:45:11 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:45:11 +0200 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <55D7435E.8090707@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55D74787.30400@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-21 17:42, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Aug 21, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> On 2015-08-21 17:21, Peter Cetinski wrote: >>> This discussion on the legality of sharing manuals, PDFs, etc. leads me to think about the vintage computing hobby as a whole. While we all encourage the hobby to grow, the downside is that as it does, the software copyright holders may start to take notice. As a developer of modern systems who expects to be paid for my work (except what I share with the community of course) I am in a conundrum because the hobby cannot succeed without the large collection of easily accessible vintage software available yet there is no way to ?buy? most of it today. But, we would also not expect or would we pay 1980s retail prices. I know some generous copyright owners have allowed unrestricted use of their old software, like Roy Soltoff from Misosys, but many others have not or have disappeared. I?m fairly new to the hobby so maybe this has already been hashed out years ago. Just wondering what the community thinks. >> >> My opinion is that people should not try to pretend that their actions are legal when they are not. While I support work to preserve things, we really need to get permission from copyright owners before just letting thing out freely. >> >> I know DEC made a general permission to copy and distribute out-of-print manuals. They also made some software freely available. I believe pretty much all PDP-8 software is in there. Some restricted distributions of PDP-11 software was also made available, but the majority of PDP-11 software is still under copyright and with no permission to redistribute (DEC sold it). > > Please remember that, in general, a general permission to copy is NOT a waiver of copyright. So those manuals for which there is a permission to copy ARE still under copyright (assuming they were in the first place, which is likely). What you have there is a specific permission granted by the owner (the copyright holder), which allows you to do the things granted, but doesn't allow you to do other things. For example, there may be permission to copy and distribute the document as it stands; that permission may (or may not) include permission to OCR it and distributed the resulting text in different forms. But it may very well disallow creating derived works. > > On the other hand, if an owner did indeed release a work to the public domain, then you can do anything you want with that work. > > This may not matter very much in practice, but if you want to apply copyright correctly, you'll want to be careful to use terms like "public domain" and "still under copyright" accurately. Right. Thanks for pointing it out, Paul. The DEC permission to reproduce and distribute out-of-print manuals was in no way a waiver of DECs copyright, and the documents are all still under copyright. Johnny From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 10:45:30 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:45:30 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D7413E.1030908@snarc.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> <55D7413E.1030908@snarc.net> Message-ID: As a musician sometimes the bar pays the ASCAP fees sometimes they don't but at least there is a way to compensate the song copyright owner when a band plays a cover song on stage at a bar. I wonder if some sort of ASCAP for out of print manuals could work....this way owners could register their manuals and make it public where to send fees AND the fees would be low enough that people would not mind paying them. This puts some responsibility on the manual owner to make their claim I suppose. Then you have international vs. domestic copyright, etc. This thread comes up every so often, nothing changes though. b On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> That's called "stealing". >> >> >> The person I had to buy the CD from off of ebay wasn't authorized to sell >> it. > > > That's a cop-out. "Someone else did it first" doesn't change the law. > > >> and freed it > > > "Freed" is a euphemism. > > I'm not saying you should be in federal lock-up with Jared from Subway. :) > But don't pretend to not understand that what you did is illegal. -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Aug 21 10:47:05 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > This discussion on the legality of sharing manuals, PDFs, etc. leads me to t$ Personally, I'm ambivalent about it. Or, more precisely, my opinion varies depending on factors not stated in what you wrote. > I know some generous copyright owners have allowed unrestricted use > of their old software, like Roy Soltoff from Misosys, but many others > have not or have disappeared. The major cases where I consider such things acceptable are where the successors-in-interest of the original copyright holder either can't be identified or located (and I mean with a reasonable level of effort, not "oh, I did a quick Google and didn't find anyone") or demonstrate convincingly that they don't care. That last can take many forms; in roughly decreasing levels of comfort (for me), it can be a rerelease with a more liberal license, it can be a letter from the relevant department to someone like bitsavers, or it can be just continued inaction in the face of well-publicized and highly accessible copies on things like bitsavers. There is also - to me! - a difference between something like ripping off a manual and redistributing it with the "justification" of "they did it first" or "they did worse", on the one hand, or keeping a private archive of such things, to make sure the information is not actually lost for the future, on the other. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan at 757.org Fri Aug 21 10:50:58 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> <55D7413E.1030908@snarc.net> Message-ID: > In this specific case though, as it's an HP manual, if it's one of the ones > that went with Agilent (now Keysight) then they seem to have an enlightened > attitude and make their old manuals available and also point to a whole > bunch of other places that do the same. So they may well be OK with someone > making a manual available ... although I don't see any explicit evidence > that they'd be OK with someone *selling* a PDF of one of their historic > manuals. This was a HP plotter at the end of it's service life (not a current model), and this entire thing happened some 12 years ago :-) But the file might still be on my broken home page... hmmm Hah, yep: https://users.757.org/~ethan/me_bookshelf/ Looks like my notes on it were HP said it's discontinued and wouldn't talk about the machine at all. Zero. Zilch. 650C was the model. I also posted on the same web page all of the Lucent Legend manuals. At the time Lucent had them all available for download for free from their ELMO system, but it wasn't picked up by google or the like. BUT, there was a lot of people charging $100-$200 for the pdf files that they downloaded from ELMO, telling people it wasn't freely available and for purchase only. The only one who gets use of the manuals is someone who owns the hardware, and the hardware comes with the manuals. *Shrug* From ethan at 757.org Fri Aug 21 10:52:31 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:52:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > There is also - to me! - a difference between something like ripping > off a manual and redistributing it with the "justification" of "they > did it first" or "they did worse", on the one hand, or keeping a > private archive of such things, to make sure the information is not > actually lost for the future, on the other. Why private? More risk of loss if it isn't distributed. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Aug 21 10:54:52 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:54:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cheap board guy Message-ID: <20150821155452.CD49818C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > That looks like a great haul. We're talking about the guy on eBay whom I posted a pointer to a couple of days back, the one with large lots of QBUS CPUs, memory, DLV11s, etc? > I hope they are working cards. All the ones I've gotten from the guy above which I was able to test (couldn't test, e.g. the RK05 cards 'cause I don't have a working RK05 yet) were OK - QBUS memory, 11/23's, etc. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 21 10:57:30 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 08:57:30 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: , , , <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net>, , <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net>, , <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com> On 08/21/2015 08:36 AM, dwight wrote: > I was going to add something but it has already been said several > times. I will add that if using a LED on an AC like signal of high > voltage, one should use a diode. I recommend using a shunt diode > rather than a series diode when high voltages are being dropped by > the resistor. It reduces the need for a high voltage diode but makes > the resistor hotter. Some red LEDs glow orange when not protected > from 12VAC. You can ask how I know. Dwight Ever take a close look at a string of Christmas-tree LEDs? Most are composed of a string of LEDs hooked directly across the AC line--no rectifier diode to be found. Some seek to reduce the 60Hz flicker by employing two strings to illuminate on both half-cycles, reducing the flicker somewhat. Since my eyes react to the flicker (it's like ants crawling over the string), I found that simply employing a full-wave bridge rectifier can reduce the appearance of flicker tremendously. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 21 11:00:00 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 09:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Years ago I needed a HP service manual for a plotter I was trying to repair >> that I owned. HP of course wouldn't let me have it, so I had to buy a PDF >> copy from someone on eBay. I ended up removing the password and posting it >> on my website. > > That's called "stealing". > No it's not. At *worst* you're voilating the copyright of someone elses copyright violation. COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT IS. NOT. THEFT. This is not my opinion, it's decided case law by the Supreme Court. >> The more of it turned free, the better. > > True, but you can't just take the law into your own hands. Well until we get together enough people together to buy a Senator or three like the likes of Disney does, we're not left a whole lot of options. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Aug 21 11:01:42 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:01:42 +0200 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <55D74B66.6030708@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-21 17:52, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> There is also - to me! - a difference between something like ripping >> off a manual and redistributing it with the "justification" of "they >> did it first" or "they did worse", on the one hand, or keeping a >> private archive of such things, to make sure the information is not >> actually lost for the future, on the other. > > Why private? More risk of loss if it isn't distributed. It's a balance between data being lost, and violating copyrights. I am sortof aligned with der Mouse here. If I have something that is copyrighted, I do not want to contribute to spreading it without permissions. But I also do not want it to be lost. Many times it is things which I do have legally myself, so I don't even feel bad about it. If, at some point, the copyright holder decides that it's ok to redistribute, then I can help people who are looking for it. Johnny From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 21 11:04:04 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 09:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> <55D7413E.1030908@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, william degnan wrote: > As a musician sometimes the bar pays the ASCAP fees sometimes they > don't but at least there is a way to compensate the song copyright > owner when a band plays a cover song on stage at a bar. I wonder if > some sort of ASCAP for out of print manuals could work....this way > owners could register their manuals and make it public where to send > fees AND the fees would be low enough that people would not mind > paying them. This puts some responsibility on the manual owner to > make their claim I suppose. Then you have international vs. domestic > copyright, etc. > ...but unlike with ASCAP, the creator of the manual would actually see some money? ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Aug 21 11:07:17 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 12:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> Message-ID: <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Copyright violation is not theft. ... The PDF "sellers" are not >> selling their property; they are selling right-to-copy. (A perhaps better way for me to have phrased that might be, they are selling right-of-access to their (intellectual) property.) > And "escorts" aren't hookers because they sell their time, not the > sex, right? Possibly, in some cases - I don't know either industry (either the escort trade or the sex trade) well enough to be competent to comment. But what's your point? It looks to me as though you are trying to draw another analogy between copyright violation (and non-violation, eg, paying for a legitimate PDFed manual) and another industry, a service industry in this case - and, while I'm speculating here, your phrasing sounds to me as though it's trying to invoke disapproval by appealing to a culture in which the sex trade is illegal, or at least sub rosa. Any such analogy is bound to be flawed; if copyright violation were theft (of either property or service), we wouldn't need special intellectual property law. It's a fundamentally different thing and any attempt to shoehorn it into a framework designed for other things is bound to be a bad fit. That's why I speak out against attempts to paint copyright violation as other things, such as theft: it's an appeal to emotions, trying to equate "thing I want people to oppose" with "very different thing I expect people already consider bad". It's a fundamentally dishonest bit of oratory. I don't support copyright violation. But I also don't support attempts to bias people against it by depicting it as something it's not, whether the "something" is theft or selling sex. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Aug 21 11:25:28 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 12:25:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> There is also - to me! - a difference between something like ripping >> off a manual and redistributing it [and] keeping a private archive >> of such things, to make sure the information is not [lost] > Why private? More risk of loss if it isn't distributed. What Johnny said, essentially: it's where I fall on the tradeoff between copyright violation and risk of loss. (For some things. Where I fall on that spectrum varies from case to case, as I outlined, all the way from things like currently-live commercial licensed binary-only software, which I don't tolerate on my machines, to things like software I wrote and released to the public domain, which of course I have no question about keeping around.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Aug 21 11:58:34 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:58:34 +0100 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> So what is the lifetime of a software copyright ? On 21/08/2015 17:25, Mouse wrote: >>> There is also - to me! - a difference between something like ripping >>> off a manual and redistributing it [and] keeping a private archive >>> of such things, to make sure the information is not [lost] >> Why private? More risk of loss if it isn't distributed. > What Johnny said, essentially: it's where I fall on the tradeoff > between copyright violation and risk of loss. (For some things. Where > I fall on that spectrum varies from case to case, as I outlined, all > the way from things like currently-live commercial licensed binary-only > software, which I don't tolerate on my machines, to things like > software I wrote and released to the public domain, which of course I > have no question about keeping around.) > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 21 12:03:30 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:03:30 -0400 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 21, 2015, at 12:58 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > So what is the lifetime of a software copyright ? The same as any other copyright. It depends on the country, but in general the answer is "very long". In the USA, recently copyrights have been extended repeatedly, in what has been referred to as the "Mickey Mouse Protection Act". (It's called that because it was crafted to ensure that no Disney movie copyright will expire.) paul From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Aug 21 12:07:50 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:07:50 +0100 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> Message-ID: <55D75AE6.1090100@btinternet.com> If you have some equipment surely it would reasonable to have the manuals for it. How the manuals are obtained is open to debate but not if you have the right to own them. Rod On 21/08/2015 17:00, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> >>> Years ago I needed a HP service manual for a plotter I was trying to >>> repair that I owned. HP of course wouldn't let me have it, so I had >>> to buy a PDF copy from someone on eBay. I ended up removing the >>> password and posting it on my website. >> >> That's called "stealing". >> > No it's not. At *worst* you're voilating the copyright of someone > elses copyright violation. COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT IS. NOT. THEFT. This > is not my opinion, it's decided case law by the Supreme Court. > >>> The more of it turned free, the better. >> >> True, but you can't just take the law into your own hands. > > Well until we get together enough people together to buy a Senator or > three like the likes of Disney does, we're not left a whole lot of > options. > > g. > From ethan at 757.org Fri Aug 21 12:10:18 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:10:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D74B66.6030708@update.uu.se> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D74B66.6030708@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > It's a balance between data being lost, and violating copyrights. I am sortof > aligned with der Mouse here. If I have something that is copyrighted, I do > not want to contribute to spreading it without permissions. But I also do not > want it to be lost. Many times it is things which I do have legally myself, > so I don't even feel bad about it. If, at some point, the copyright holder > decides that it's ok to redistribute, then I can help people who are looking > for it. In the case of hoarding crusty computer stuff, it's by far and large past the end of it's useful life. The equipment isn't being run commercially, it isn't being used to make money, and the software authors aren't around to support sales of software for the machines. IF they were, I doubt many people would buy it because once again, end of it's useful service life. It's now museum relics, and a handful of people trying to preserve the stuff before it is gone. The internet doesn't remember all either, stuff is lost from the internet. Wikipedia deletes pages they find boring or low traffic. Privately owned servers crash, get hacked, or owners loose interest and move on to other projects. I don't really see archiving old paper manuals and magnetic media as a big deal. I *DO* have friends that are interested in vintage computing but work in jobs where any copying of any software that isn't strictly allowed by law is a no-no, and they're pretty much stuck. Own a couple of computers but can't do much because it's difficult to buy software for Commodore 64 (especially development tools) and stuff. I think it's madness but gotta feed the landlord/bankers. -- Ethan O'Toole From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Aug 21 12:11:58 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:11:58 +0100 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> Yes OK and "very long" would be? On 21/08/2015 18:03, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Aug 21, 2015, at 12:58 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> >> So what is the lifetime of a software copyright ? > The same as any other copyright. It depends on the country, but in general the answer is "very long". In the USA, recently copyrights have been extended repeatedly, in what has been referred to as the "Mickey Mouse Protection Act". (It's called that because it was crafted to ensure that no Disney movie copyright will expire.) > > paul > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 21 12:18:18 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:18:18 -0400 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <79E953E3-38B4-449E-9D68-194DEC2A6946@comcast.net> Wikipedia has a lot more detail, but from what it says, in the USA the answer is 75 years from publication, if copyright was in effect at the beginning of 1978 or if the work was created since then. paul > On Aug 21, 2015, at 1:11 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Yes OK and "very long" would be? > > On 21/08/2015 18:03, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 12:58 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> >>> >>> So what is the lifetime of a software copyright ? >> The same as any other copyright. It depends on the country, but in general the answer is "very long". In the USA, recently copyrights have been extended repeatedly, in what has been referred to as the "Mickey Mouse Protection Act". (It's called that because it was crafted to ensure that no Disney movie copyright will expire.) >> >> paul >> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 21 12:19:18 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:19:18 +0000 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D75AE6.1090100@btinternet.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> , <55D75AE6.1090100@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > If you have some equipment surely it would reasonable to have the > manuals for it. > How the manuals are obtained is open to debate but not if you have the > right to own them. I would agree (although doubtless lawyers wouldn't :-)). A problem, though is when a service or technical manual was an optioanl accessory, which had to be paid for separately. In that case it is going to be very hard to prove you had a right to own it. And yet the manufacturers can no longer supply it, and you want to fix the . A case in point. I have a 1980s colour graphics terminal here. The user manual was supplied with it (and I am pretty sure I have the original), the service manual was an option and I am pretty sure the previous owners never had it. But of course I need the schematics, etc to sort out an EHT fault in it. In this particular case there is no problem. It's a Tektronix and comes under (AFAIK) the agreement posted on bitsavers. And bitsavers had the 2 volumes of service manual available. So I do not feel there is anything wrong in this case. But for other manufacturers it could be a problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 21 12:20:08 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:20:08 +0000 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> , <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > Yes OK and "very long" would be? I am pretty sure that the original software for EDSAC would still be under copyright.... -tony From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Aug 21 12:28:50 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 19:28:50 +0200 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <79E953E3-38B4-449E-9D68-194DEC2A6946@comcast.net> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <79E953E3-38B4-449E-9D68-194DEC2A6946@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55D75FD2.6020302@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-21 19:18, Paul Koning wrote: > Wikipedia has a lot more detail, but from what it says, in the USA the answer is 75 years from publication, if copyright was in effect at the beginning of 1978 or if the work was created since then. I believe the USA signed the Berne convention (although pretty recently compared to when it was written). And then it's 75 years from publication (I think) for companies, but 75 years from the death of the author when the copyright owner is a person. (It used to be 50 years, but when the 50th anniversary of Hitlers death came about, they extended it to 75 years, to keep Mein Kampf away from the presses... :-) ) Johnny > > paul > >> On Aug 21, 2015, at 1:11 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> Yes OK and "very long" would be? >> >> On 21/08/2015 18:03, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 12:58 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> So what is the lifetime of a software copyright ? >>> The same as any other copyright. It depends on the country, but in general the answer is "very long". In the USA, recently copyrights have been extended repeatedly, in what has been referred to as the "Mickey Mouse Protection Act". (It's called that because it was crafted to ensure that no Disney movie copyright will expire.) >>> >>> paul >>> >> > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 21 12:31:58 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 10:31:58 -0700 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> On 08/21/2015 10:11 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Yes OK and "very long" would be? It varies by country. In the case of the USA, 95 years from publication (for older works) Other countries employ the author's life+x years (usually 50 or 70)--live to a ripe old age and your copyright can run for a very long time. In the USA, the rule of thumb is that you're generally safe with works published before 1923, which, I imagine does not include much computer software. --Chuck From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Aug 21 12:41:56 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:41:56 +0100 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> <55D75AE6.1090100@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <55D762E4.50008@btinternet.com> Excellent! EEC (Europe) is 70 years from the death of a known author or 70 years from publication if the author is unknown On 21/08/2015 18:19, tony duell wrote: >> If you have some equipment surely it would reasonable to have the >> manuals for it. >> How the manuals are obtained is open to debate but not if you have the >> right to own them. > I would agree (although doubtless lawyers wouldn't :-)). > > A problem, though is when a service or technical manual was an optioanl accessory, which > had to be paid for separately. In that case it is going to be very hard to prove you had a right > to own it. And yet the manufacturers can no longer supply it, and you want to fix the . > > A case in point. I have a 1980s colour graphics terminal here. The user manual was supplied with it (and > I am pretty sure I have the original), the service manual was an option and I am pretty sure the previous > owners never had it. But of course I need the schematics, etc to sort out an EHT fault in it. > > In this particular case there is no problem. It's a Tektronix and comes under (AFAIK) the agreement > posted on bitsavers. And bitsavers had the 2 volumes of service manual available. So I do not feel > there is anything wrong in this case. But for other manufacturers it could be a problem. > > -tony From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Aug 21 12:44:34 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:44:34 +0100 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D76382.7040806@btinternet.com> And... We have a new question. What would have been the first piece of copyrightable software? Rod On 21/08/2015 18:31, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/21/2015 10:11 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Yes OK and "very long" would be? > > It varies by country. In the case of the USA, 95 years from > publication (for older works) Other countries employ the author's > life+x years (usually 50 or 70)--live to a ripe old age and your > copyright can run for a very long time. > > In the USA, the rule of thumb is that you're generally safe with works > published before 1923, which, I imagine does not include much computer > software. > > --Chuck > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 21 12:50:10 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 10:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > So what is the lifetime of a software copyright ? > You're going to die before it expires. Quite possibly your grand children as well. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Aug 21 12:53:47 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 12:53:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/21/2015 10:11 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Yes OK and "very long" would be? > > It varies by country. In the case of the USA, 95 years from publication > (for older works) Other countries employ the author's life+x years > (usually 50 or 70)--live to a ripe old age and your copyright can run > for a very long time. > > In the USA, the rule of thumb is that you're generally safe with works > published before 1923, which, I imagine does not include much computer > software. ...and works published before 1964 which were either not registered with the US copyright office or which did not have their copyrights renewed. Those require some research to determine their status. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 21 12:54:59 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 10:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D74B66.6030708@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, ethan at 757.org wrote: > I *DO* have friends that are interested in vintage computing but work in jobs > where any copying of any software that isn't strictly allowed by law is a > no-no, and they're pretty much stuck. Own a couple of computers but can't do > much because it's difficult to buy software for Commodore 64 (especially > development tools) and stuff. I think it's madness but gotta feed the > landlord/bankers. > They must be getting paid pretty well if they're allowing their employer to perform random inspections of their homes and personal computers. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 21 12:58:33 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 12:58:33 -0500 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D7435E.8090707@update.uu.se> References: <55D7435E.8090707@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55D766C9.10800@charter.net> On 8/21/2015 10:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > And I don't know much about anything for non-DEC stuff. So while I hope > there are copies of stuff around, think some before redistributing it. > > Johnny > Some other licenses (or lack thereof) that make software readily available that I am aware of include: Most IBM Software through MVS 3.8j was issued without copyright. Once the Amdahl 470 came along, IBM started adding IP to their operating system, and licensed it. So, this includes software for the 709/7090/7094, 1401, 1410, 1130 and System/360 and System/370. Most of the System/360 and System/370 software can be found on links from various Hercules emulator sites. Older software can be harder to track down, but usually responds well to Google. The DEC VMS Hobbyist license (though this gets a little confusing with respect to the PAKs and obtaining media sometimes). Burroughs MCP MARK XIII Hobbyist license, via UNISYS: http://www.phkimpel.us/B5500/webSite/Unisys-B5500-Software-License.pdf The licenses involved in the SimH software sets for various machines. (See each software "pack"). The Unix archive at the Unix Heritage Society / PDP Unix Preservation Society, via a non-commercial use license negotiated with SCO. http://www.tuhs.org/ (but the link to the SCO license page is broken, because SCO is gone). http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/calder-lic.pdf (BSD) And probably many many more. JRJ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 21 13:08:05 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:08:05 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D762E4.50008@btinternet.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> <55D75AE6.1090100@btinternet.com> <55D762E4.50008@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <55D76905.60100@sydex.com> On 08/21/2015 10:41 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Excellent! EEC (Europe) is 70 years from the death of a known author > or 70 years from publication if the author is unknown This leads to some interesting situations. Archibald Joyce wrote his "Autumn Dreams" waltz in 1908 and it has been reported to be the tune the orchestra was playing as the Titanic sank in 1912 (contrary to popular belief, it is extremely unlikely that the band played "Nearer My God to Thee" as they would not have been familiar with the hymn). As Joyce lived to a ripe old age and died in 1963, the work is still very much under copyright protection in the UK. However, the same work was published in 1921 in the USA, so it is public domain there. On the other hand, George Butterworth, who set A.E. Houseman's "A Shropshire Lad" to music (1912) was born 12 years after Joyce, but killed in 1916 at the battle of the Somme, had his copyright protection expire in 1986. Laws vary from country to country. George Orwell's "1984" is PD in Australia, but protected in the UK. Iran, on the other hand, recognizes no foreign copyright. As mentioned before, works of Soviet writers and composers were considered to be PD (unless copyright was obtained outside of the USSR) by the US during the Cold War--similarly, the USSR did not recognize foreign copyright. So you could purchase the sheet music of Shostakovitch for a pittance. After the fall of the Soviet Union, the US moved to "restore" Soviet copyright and so removed works back into copyright status. If you want to publish Shostakovitch, you now must deal with his estate--and copyright will endure to about 2050. --Chuck From isking at uw.edu Fri Aug 21 13:09:02 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:09:02 -0700 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: <55D73AE1.9030407@btinternet.com> References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> <55D70031.9050307@btinternet.com> <01df01d0dc0d$ee882610$cb987230$@gmail.com> <55D73623.6080504@btinternet.com> <55D73971.6020904@telegraphics.com.au> <55D73AE1.9030407@btinternet.com> Message-ID: My email wasn't 'go look at this site', it was 'I visited these nice people' with the link as a courtesy. What 'norm'? On Aug 21, 2015 4:51 PM, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > Yes indeed "danger wears a coat of many colours" > > Rod > > > On 21/08/2015 15:45, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 2015-08-21 10:30 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi >>> >>> Yes I know, but its not the norm to link from an English language email >>> to a site in another language with no warning. >>> I suppose they think everybody speaks Danish. >>> >>> You could be heading into some real dark places without knowing. Rule >>> 16b never logon to a site you cant read. >>> >> >> No "darker" than any English language site. >> >> >> --Toby >> >> >> >>> Rod >>> >>> >>> On 21/08/2015 13:35, Dave G4UGM wrote: >>> >>>> Google Translate does a reasonable job... >>>> >>>> >>>> http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdatamuseum.dk%2Fddhf-samlinger&edit-text=&act=url >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >>>>> Smallwood >>>>> Sent: 21 August 2015 11:41 >>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: out-of-mainstream minis >>>>> >>>>> I'm sure its very intersting. >>>>> The website is designed for domestic consumption only as its all in >>>>> Danish. >>>>> >>>>> Rod >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 21/08/2015 11:27, Ian S. King wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I had the privilege of visiting what Nico calls a 'museum-to-be' >>>>>> yesterday evening, and it is far more than most of what I've seen! >>>>>> They have a very substantial collection of all sorts of systems, >>>>>> peripherals and documentation, including a GIER from ca. 1962 that I >>>>>> saw >>>>>> >>>>> (and heard) run. >>>>> >>>>>> As a debugging/operations aid, they had attached the overflow bit to a >>>>>> speaker so it could generate 1-bit sound - one demo they gave me was a >>>>>> program to calculate e that played a sound for each iteration so you >>>>>> could hear the steady progress. But of course if there is a sound >>>>>> output, no one can avoid playing with it. There were numerous pieces >>>>>> of computationally generated music composed for the machine (on paper >>>>>> tape), but also a program for playing a recorded, real-life sound in >>>>>> 1-bit >>>>>> >>>>> audio! >>>>> >>>>>> The collection includes numerous other computers including pretty much >>>>>> the entire RC line, as well as pre-computer tabulators, keypunches, >>>>>> paper handling machine and the like. The artifacts are well-ordered >>>>>> and in large part well labeled for even the uninitiated visitor. >>>>>> >>>>>> Everything is laid out quite thoughtfully, with wide aisles, in a >>>>>> large, well-lit basement. There are interpretive displays here and >>>>>> there, as well as a small but appealing lecture/display area. >>>>>> >>>>>> The datamuseum.dk collection represents 25 years of accumulation, I >>>>>> was told. But more importantly, I think their work demonstrates a >>>>>> very well-considered approach for presenting the history of the >>>>>> collection's machines to visitors. >>>>>> >>>>>> My hosts were also warm and wonderful people who clearly love what >>>>>> they do and enjoy sharing it. They made me feel among friends, if not >>>>>> family. :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, Finn and everyone else (sorry, I'm bad with names), for >>>>>> sharing your time and your passion with me! -- Ian >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:43 AM, Nico de Jong >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I share your favourite(s). In the danish IT-museum-to-be ( >>>>>>> www.datamuseum.dk) we have two P857-based systems running. We >>>>>>> >>>>>> have >>>>> >>>>>> lots of spare parts and nearly all documentation, so if you need >>>>>>> something, you are welcome to ask. >>>>>>> I'm presently building a "table top" version of a system with the >>>>>>> P857 CPU, 35cm H x 60 deep x 19" wide, with a dual 8" floppy drive, >>>>>>> and a 80486 PC for program loading etc. >>>>>>> The system is built into a P859 box. The P859 CPU is special, as it >>>>>>> has a >>>>>>> V24 connection that goes to a LED display with push buttons. Very >>>>>>> nice indeed. >>>>>>> For that system, I have developped a Windows based Assembler, and a >>>>>>> Windows based simulator. The simulator takes assembled programs (in >>>>>>> my system called *.OBJ) and the original source. You can then step >>>>>>> through the instructions, and follow them through the text file on >>>>>>> the PC. >>>>>>> I am presently trying to execute various utility programs, sent to me >>>>>>> by a Belgion ex-Philips employee, who did a lot of work on the P800 >>>>>>> >>>>>> series. >>>>> >>>>>> I myself worked with the P800 series, disguised as the PTS6800 series >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> 4-5 years full time. >>>>>>> The PTS 6800 series was used extensively in banks, mainly in >>>>>>> Scandinavia, Greece, Barclay SouthAfrica, Philippines. In Sweden also >>>>>>> in the airline industry. In Denmark it was used mainly by local >>>>>>> authorities, PTT, Railway (ticket printing), and some other >>>>>>> small-time projects. In one of the project it was connected to an >>>>>>> ATM (fun >>>>>>> >>>>>> project). >>>>> >>>>>> I know of one collector in the Netherlands (Camiel), and some guys >>>>>>> who have no hardware but a lot of knowledge /Nico >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: tony duell >>>>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 7:31 AM >>>>>>> Subject: RE: out-of-mainstream minis >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not all minis came from the States :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One of my favourite non-mainstream families is the Philips P800 >>>>>>> series. >>>>>>> It's >>>>>>> a 16 bit machine with 16 registers (0 is the program counter >>>>>>> and 15 >>>>>>> is the stack pointer, rest are mostly general purpose) and >>>>>>> separate >>>>>>> I/O instructions (not memory-mapped I/O). There were several >>>>>>> models >>>>>>> with various implementations of the architecture, including >>>>>>> >>>>>>> P850 (TTL, hardwired not microcoded) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> P855, P852, P856, P857, P860 (TTL, microcoded) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> P851 (Custom bitslice ICs, microcoded) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> P854 (AM2900 bitslice, microcoded) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> P853 I think (Single chip) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, I don't have all of those... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -tony >>>>>>> = >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 21 13:09:19 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 14:09:19 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> > That's why I speak out against attempts to paint copyright violation as other things, such as theft: it's an appeal to emotions, trying to equate "thing I want people to oppose" with "very different thing I expect people already consider bad". It's a fundamentally dishonest bit of oratory. I write for a (meager) living. If someone were to take my work and decide for themselves that it should be online for free, then they ARE stealing from me. That is reality, not the semantics of case law. From Mark at Misty.com Fri Aug 21 13:13:33 2015 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 14:13:33 -0400 Subject: Cheap board guy In-Reply-To: <20150821155452.CD49818C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150821155452.CD49818C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20150821181333.GA9229@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 11:54:52AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ethan Dicks > > > That looks like a great haul. > > We're talking about the guy on eBay whom I posted a pointer to a couple of > days back, the one with large lots of QBUS CPUs, memory, DLV11s, etc? > > > I hope they are working cards. > > All the ones I've gotten from the guy above which I was able to test (couldn't > test, e.g. the RK05 cards 'cause I don't have a working RK05 yet) were OK - > QBUS memory, 11/23's, etc. I picked up a bunch of the boards too. My results have been mixed, but for the price and description, I expected some wouldn't work. 1x M8028 - DLV11-F SLU works. 1x Plessey 32kW memory, works. 2x M8186-YA - KDF11-AA, works. 4x M8192 - KDJ11 (AA or AB?) -- two work, two fail POST, with LEDs lit. 4x MMS1132-N3-128 Motorola 128kW memory - undetermined if works. 1x MMS1102-34 Motorola 32kW memory - undetermined if works. I haven't figured out the jumpers on the Motorola memory boards yet. As provided, if I plug one in with the KDF11-AA, I fail to even get an ODT prompt. I picked up a chassis with bridged 2x8 and 2x12 Qbus backplanes in it at a hamfest (with a good KDF11-AA and 4xM8044s), so my goal is to make a pair of small working 11/23 or 11/73 systems. So far, I've got PDP11GUI successfully running memory tests using microODT via the SLU and a Windows PC, enough to test out the hardware as per above. 1) I was hoping I could boot XXDP or RT11 from an RX33/RQDX3. The RX33/RQDX3 works in my 11/53, but so far I'm not having much luck with the KDF11 above. I picked up a M9058 RQDX3 signal distribution board on e-bay from seller efi (he has one more listed). It's only got one jumper on it, labelled RX50, which I have in the non-RX50 position. Since none of this has a bootstrap, I run the bootstrap from ROM provided by a Dilog SCSI card here, but typing "DU" or "DU0" at the * prompt spins the floppy ever-so-briefly, then kicks out an error about no boot media found. Suggestions? Maybe I should try other bootstrap? 2) I could use PDP11GUI, or other tools to load XXDP via the SLU. If anyone has already done this and wants to talk to me about it, I welcome some help. I'm a little confused about what should work and what should not work, with just the 18 bit qbus. Do I need to wire wrap the additional address lines to be able to do anything with these KDJ11 CPUs? Does anyone have good instructions for this modification -- I'll probably want to do it. Do I just add the additional address lines, or are there other considerations? Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 21 13:13:49 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 14:13:49 -0400 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D76A5D.1080203@snarc.net> Wanted to add that my opinion of "freeing" manuals, etc. does not mean I am against Bitsavers or Internet Archive -- work that's done the right way by professionals. My main gripe is when an individual takes something that is still actively * for sale * (by the original developer, no less) and the takes it upon themselves to give it away. Whether people or the courts decide it's a "violation" or a crime, either way, it's wrong. From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 21 13:15:58 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 14:15:58 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing Message-ID: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> Going to be de-yellowing a //e Platinum this weekend. Check out this picture of the top cover. You can see the non-yellowed part on bottom. Big difference! I'll post "after" pictures. http://snarc.net/yellowing.jpg From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Aug 21 13:17:53 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:17:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> On Wed, 19 Aug 2015, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> >>> Years ago I needed a HP service manual for a plotter I was trying to >>> repair that I owned. HP of course wouldn't let me have it, so I had to >>> buy a PDF copy from someone on eBay. I ended up removing the password >>> and posting it on my website. >> >> That's called "stealing". HP no longer had the manual in their archives so they couldn't provide it. > No it's not. At *worst* you're voilating the copyright of someone elses > copyright violation. COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT IS. NOT. THEFT. This is not > my opinion, it's decided case law by the Supreme Court. Sigh. I'm just going to leave these here... Release of copyright http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=download&file=Tektronix/Tektronix_-_Miscelaneous/Tek_Copyright_Release.pdf Tektronix Policy on Copying of Out-of-date Materials http://www.tek.com/dl/Tektronix_Policy_on_Copying.pdf To put this more back on the original subject, Manuals Plus also had explicit permission from both Tektronix and HP/Agilent/Keysight to actually duplicate/reprint their manuals. This is why some manuals were so expensive...they were copied as needed to fill an order, and according to Becky, it was a very labor intensive process. Jason will know exactly what I'm talking about here too, as he got their Master (Reprint) manuals. From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Aug 21 13:18:20 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:18:20 +0200 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> Message-ID: <55D76B6C.7090900@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-21 20:09, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> That's why I speak out against attempts to paint copyright violation >> as other things, such as theft: it's an appeal to emotions, trying to >> equate "thing I want people to oppose" with "very different thing I >> expect people already consider bad". It's a fundamentally dishonest >> bit of oratory. > > I write for a (meager) living. If someone were to take my work and > decide for themselves that it should be online for free, then they ARE > stealing from me. That is reality, not the semantics of case law. Well, technically I would argue that they are denying you the compensation that you should be entitled to. It's not the same as stealing from you. (Sorry for disagreeing with you, but I think using the correct terms are important.) Stealing implies that you loose something you had possession of. All that said, the action of denying you something that is your by right is also illegal. Johnny From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 13:26:46 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:26:46 -0700 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D76A5D.1080203@snarc.net> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76A5D.1080203@snarc.net> Message-ID: <74D697A3-1AE4-4AA3-81F8-0C26B2005925@gmail.com> I think in response to sharing bits, a "better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission" policy is as best as can be done, otherwise the hobby is completely doomed. I like how archive.org deals with it. If someone wants something taken down, do it by all means! Many current rights holders for this stuff may not even KNOW they are rights holders, and for others, they may *want* to release something but cross licensing issues with other companies (e.g. Licensed libraries) may prevent them. By the time we get permission to share this stuff, much of it will be permanently lost. So for now, I'll totally do illegal things. Because the law is shortsighted. And if a rights holder asks me to stop, I'm happy to. And sometime when society sees the value in all this, maybe we will get copyright reform. Yar, mateys, I'll see you all on the high seas! - Ian Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 21, 2015, at 11:13, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Wanted to add that my opinion of "freeing" manuals, etc. does not mean I am against Bitsavers or Internet Archive -- work that's done the right way by professionals. My main gripe is when an individual takes something that is still actively * for sale * (by the original developer, no less) and the takes it upon themselves to give it away. Whether people or the courts decide it's a "violation" or a crime, either way, it's wrong. From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 21 13:29:08 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 14:29:08 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> Message-ID: <55D76DF4.2010909@snarc.net> > Sigh. I'm just going to leave these here... > > Release of copyright > http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=download&file=Tektronix/Tektronix_-_Miscelaneous/Tek_Copyright_Release.pdf > > > Tektronix Policy on Copying of Out-of-date Materials > http://www.tek.com/dl/Tektronix_Policy_on_Copying.pdf Err .... carry on, then. :) From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 13:31:21 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:31:21 -0700 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <74D697A3-1AE4-4AA3-81F8-0C26B2005925@gmail.com> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76A5D.1080203@snarc.net> <74D697A3-1AE4-4AA3-81F8-0C26B2005925@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5380D86A-83CE-4E7D-90C9-6526EA8E6D4E@gmail.com> I should add- although I thought this was obvious, some people here take pedantry to the next level: *** I am strictly referring to software which is no longer generally available commercially, which is the 98% case for the software for our machines. **** Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 21, 2015, at 11:26, Ian Finder wrote: > > I think in response to sharing bits, a "better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission" policy is as best as can be done, otherwise the hobby is completely doomed. > > I like how archive.org deals with it. If someone wants something taken down, do it by all means! > > Many current rights holders for this stuff may not even KNOW they are rights holders, and for others, they may *want* to release something but cross licensing issues with other companies (e.g. Licensed libraries) may prevent them. > > By the time we get permission to share this stuff, much of it will be permanently lost. > > So for now, I'll totally do illegal things. Because the law is shortsighted. And if a rights holder asks me to stop, I'm happy to. And sometime when society sees the value in all this, maybe we will get copyright reform. > > Yar, mateys, I'll see you all on the high seas! > > - Ian > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 21, 2015, at 11:13, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >> Wanted to add that my opinion of "freeing" manuals, etc. does not mean I am against Bitsavers or Internet Archive -- work that's done the right way by professionals. My main gripe is when an individual takes something that is still actively * for sale * (by the original developer, no less) and the takes it upon themselves to give it away. Whether people or the courts decide it's a "violation" or a crime, either way, it's wrong. From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Aug 21 13:33:36 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:33:36 +0200 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <5380D86A-83CE-4E7D-90C9-6526EA8E6D4E@gmail.com> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76A5D.1080203@snarc.net> <74D697A3-1AE4-4AA3-81F8-0C26B2005925@gmail.com> <5380D86A-83CE-4E7D-90C9-6526EA8E6D4E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55D76F00.6000400@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-21 20:31, Ian Finder wrote: > I should add- although I thought this was obvious, some people here take pedantry to the next level: > > *** I am strictly referring to software which is no longer generally available commercially, which is the 98% case for the software for our machines. **** Hmm, I didn't know that PDP-11 software was less than 2% of the software under discussion here. Johnny > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 21, 2015, at 11:26, Ian Finder wrote: >> >> I think in response to sharing bits, a "better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission" policy is as best as can be done, otherwise the hobby is completely doomed. >> >> I like how archive.org deals with it. If someone wants something taken down, do it by all means! >> >> Many current rights holders for this stuff may not even KNOW they are rights holders, and for others, they may *want* to release something but cross licensing issues with other companies (e.g. Licensed libraries) may prevent them. >> >> By the time we get permission to share this stuff, much of it will be permanently lost. >> >> So for now, I'll totally do illegal things. Because the law is shortsighted. And if a rights holder asks me to stop, I'm happy to. And sometime when society sees the value in all this, maybe we will get copyright reform. >> >> Yar, mateys, I'll see you all on the high seas! >> >> - Ian >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 11:13, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> >>> Wanted to add that my opinion of "freeing" manuals, etc. does not mean I am against Bitsavers or Internet Archive -- work that's done the right way by professionals. My main gripe is when an individual takes something that is still actively * for sale * (by the original developer, no less) and the takes it upon themselves to give it away. Whether people or the courts decide it's a "violation" or a crime, either way, it's wrong. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 13:36:59 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 14:36:59 -0400 Subject: Cheap board guy In-Reply-To: <20150821181333.GA9229@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20150821155452.CD49818C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20150821181333.GA9229@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > I picked up a bunch of the boards too. My results have been mixed, but > for the price and description, I expected some wouldn't work. Sure. > 1x M8028 - DLV11-F SLU works. > 1x Plessey 32kW memory, works. > 2x M8186-YA - KDF11-AA, works. Cool. > 4x M8192 - KDJ11 (AA or AB?) -- two work, two fail POST, with LEDs lit. That was my concern. $50 is a fine price for a KDJ11, but not for a busted one. Did you scope out the POST code yet? > 4x MMS1132-N3-128 Motorola 128kW memory - undetermined if works. > 1x MMS1102-34 Motorola 32kW memory - undetermined if works. > > I haven't figured out the jumpers on the Motorola memory boards yet. > As provided, if I plug one in with the KDF11-AA, I fail to even get > an ODT prompt. They might not be strapped for 0000000. Since they are not DEC, it might take unearthing manuals or tracing out the circuit around the jumpers and the upper Qbus memory bits. > Since none of this has a bootstrap, > I run the bootstrap from ROM provided by a Dilog SCSI card here, but typing > "DU" or "DU0" at the * prompt spins the floppy ever-so-briefly, then kicks > out an error about no boot media found. Suggestions? Maybe I should try > other bootstrap? Hmm... maybe you could enter the real DEC DU boot from ODT? I wouldn't trust a Dilog boot to work with a DEC card until I inspected the code to see what it was doing. If the Dilog card is fully register-compatible with an RQDX3, it could work, but I'd not assume it does. I've always had a BDV11 with my KDF11s, so that's the bootstrap I've used. I don't think it covers MSCP (I have RL02s and RX02s) so I haven't been in your exact position of trying to boot an RQDX3 on a KDF11. > 2) I could use PDP11GUI, or other tools to load XXDP via the SLU. If anyone > has already done this and wants to talk to me about it, I welcome some help. I have no experience with PDP11GUI. Sorry. > I'm a little confused about what should work and what should not work, with > just the 18 bit qbus. Do I need to wire wrap the additional address lines > to be able to do anything with these KDJ11 CPUs? Does anyone have good > instructions for this modification -- I'll probably want to do it. Do I just > add the additional address lines, or are there other considerations? If you want to stick more than 128kW of memory on any of your processors, you'll need the upper 4 address lines. I've added them. It's not particularly difficult. If you don't need more than that 128kW, you don't need it. Any 22-bit processor will work on an 18-bit bus. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Aug 21 13:45:43 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:45:43 -0700 Subject: maybe OT: Powerbook 5300 OS upgrade In-Reply-To: References: <124F4A50-0050-4257-863F-D48B3E27044C@aracnet.com> Message-ID: Yesterday I sent a power book 5300 to recycling. The display hinge was quite broken, it was given to me a while ago and I didn't see accomplishing anything with it. What's still kicking around here is: - the funky special HDI30-to-SCSI-DB25 adapter to get from the 5300 to normal SCSI - SCSI DB-25 to SCSI 50 cable - SCSI CDROM drive in case w power supply Also still have: - the 5300 power adapter/charger: Model No. M3037(APS-76) I think the following also came with it (pile of stuff came jumbled together): - Global Village/teleport 56 fax/modem model A8245 (mini-DIN-8 connector) - PowerPrint adapter: mini-DIN-8 to Centronics parallel - PowerPrint software on floppies - MS office and MS word on about 30 floppies Might be some other software as well. Any or all is free for shipping if you like. Location is Vancouver BC Canada. Might be able to ship from the Washington border if you're patient. I plugged the bare CD-ROM drive in (i.e. no SCSI bus connection). Powers up, door opens and closes, LED flashes, spins with a random disk inserted but doesn't seem to come ready - not sure what one would expect with no host on the bus. On 2015-Aug-21, at 8:30 AM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > I guess I'll be trolling ebay for a bit for a drive. Thanks Guys! > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> >>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Joe Giliberti wrote: >>> >>> Greetings! >>> >>> I know that many of my posts to this list tend to be on the fringes of >> what >>> is normally discussed here. I apologize in advance if this is too new for >>> the group. >>> >>> I am trying to get my Powerbook 5300 up and running as a usable word >>> processor (with portable printer) for school and for email. It is >> currently >>> running System 7.5.2. The machine is capable of supporting MacOS 9.1, but >>> my goal is 8.6. I see them talking on lowendmac that upgrading the OS >> makes >>> the machine more solid, but it doesn't explain how to do it. The machine >>> only has a floppy drive and no networking. Were there any system 8.6 >>> install floppies? I can't think of another way to get it on there. >>> >>> TIA >>> Joe >> >> If I remember right your limited to CD. Even on my 520c, I was able to >> attach an external SCSI CD-ROM drive. It was pretty much a requirement. >> I'd say, definitely get it onto 8.x. >> >> I'm not sure how this is on the fringes for the list, as the system is >> nearly 20 years old. >> >> Zane >> >> >> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 21 13:50:03 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:50:03 +0000 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> Message-ID: > > I write for a (meager) living. If someone were to take my work and > decide for themselves that it should be online for free, then they ARE > stealing from me. That is reality, not the semantics of case law. I am not convinced they are stealing from you. Depriving you of income, sure. But not really theft. If I steal your car then you have no use of that car until it is taken back from me and returned to you, its rightful owner. But if I decide to make a piece of your work available for free download then you still have that work, nothing stops you from selling it (although alas you would have difficulty getting customers if it is available for free). When I am caught I do not have to return anything to you to enable you to start selling again. I will happily agree that it is both morally and legally a crime to distribute somebody else's work that they get income from. The discussion of manuals and software here refers to items that the original author/company cannot or will not provide any longer. It is still a legal crime to distribute such work without permission I think, but I don't feel it is a moral crime. Nobody is really losing money as a result (which is probably why some companies specifically allow it and many more turn a blind eye.) -tony From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 13:54:25 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:54:25 -0700 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D76F00.6000400@update.uu.se> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76A5D.1080203@snarc.net> <74D697A3-1AE4-4AA3-81F8-0C26B2005925@gmail.com> <5380D86A-83CE-4E7D-90C9-6526EA8E6D4E@gmail.com> <55D76F00.6000400@update.uu.se> Message-ID: I would hazard a guess, Johnny, that whatever PDP-11 software you're referring to is *indeed* well under 2% of the body of all the copyrighted software ever written for computers we consider "vintage." But if you'd like to maintain your tunnel vision on your specific interests and cases, that's your prerogative. This is an issue for all vintage computers. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 21, 2015, at 11:33, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2015-08-21 20:31, Ian Finder wrote: >> I should add- although I thought this was obvious, some people here take pedantry to the next level: >> >> *** I am strictly referring to software which is no longer generally available commercially, which is the 98% case for the software for our machines. **** > > Hmm, I didn't know that PDP-11 software was less than 2% of the software under discussion here. > > Johnny > >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 11:26, Ian Finder wrote: >>> >>> I think in response to sharing bits, a "better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission" policy is as best as can be done, otherwise the hobby is completely doomed. >>> >>> I like how archive.org deals with it. If someone wants something taken down, do it by all means! >>> >>> Many current rights holders for this stuff may not even KNOW they are rights holders, and for others, they may *want* to release something but cross licensing issues with other companies (e.g. Licensed libraries) may prevent them. >>> >>> By the time we get permission to share this stuff, much of it will be permanently lost. >>> >>> So for now, I'll totally do illegal things. Because the law is shortsighted. And if a rights holder asks me to stop, I'm happy to. And sometime when society sees the value in all this, maybe we will get copyright reform. >>> >>> Yar, mateys, I'll see you all on the high seas! >>> >>> - Ian >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 11:13, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> >>>> Wanted to add that my opinion of "freeing" manuals, etc. does not mean I am against Bitsavers or Internet Archive -- work that's done the right way by professionals. My main gripe is when an individual takes something that is still actively * for sale * (by the original developer, no less) and the takes it upon themselves to give it away. Whether people or the courts decide it's a "violation" or a crime, either way, it's wrong. > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Aug 21 14:00:25 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:00:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cheap board guy Message-ID: <20150821190025.4356418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark G. Thomas > 4x M8192 - KDJ11 (AA or AB?) -- two work, two fail POST And alas, we don't seem to have any prints for that card (although we do have what amounts to a tech manual, so maybe we can create a set, with a certain amount of tracing with an ohmmeter), so at the moment, at least, fixing them isn't so easy. > I was hoping I could boot XXDP or RT11 from an RX33/RQDX3. The > RX33/RQDX3 works in my 11/53 Well, that's a very good sign... > Since none of this has a bootstrap, I run the bootstrap from ROM > provided by a Dilog SCSI card here, but typing "DU" or "DU0" at the > prompt spins the floppy ever-so-briefly, then kicks out an error about > no boot media found. Suggestions? Maybe I should try other bootstrap? Definitely; the code on the Dilog card might not support that controller properly (even though it seems to recognize "DU"). > I'm a little confused about what should work and what should not work, > with just the 18 bit qbus. If you have less than 256KB of memory (so Q22 processors won't wrap around, when trying to size memory, and think there's memory there above 256K - although Q18 memory probably will stop responding at 248KB, anyway), pretty much everything _should_ work, I would think. The high address lines being put out by the processor, DMA devices, etc should just have no effect. Although the details get tricky... E.g. if you don't have BDAL18-21 for a Q22 memory card, what will its bus interface do when faced with those lines, which aren't driven in any way - _especially_ not pulled up by terminators? Some DEC memory cards (e.g. MSV11-L, M8059) have jumpers to run in either Q18 or Q22 mode, to work around this. > Do I need to wire wrap the additional address lines to be able to do > anything with these KDJ11 CPUs? No, if you have less than 256KB of memory, the high bits should just be ignored (I think - I haven't actually tried this, to be absolutely sure). > Does anyone have good instructions for this modification -- I'll > probably want to do it. Do I just add the additional address lines, or > are there other considerations? I have modified an H9273 backplane (Q18) to H9276 (Q22), and it works fine; all I did was bus all the BDAL18-21 pins together: pretty easy, as it's a Q/CD backplane, not a Q/Q - just run a wire down, and solder it to each pin as it goes (those backplanes don't have the pins stick out far enough for wire wrap). Q/Q will be only slightly more complicated (since you have to bus down one side, then run the signals up and across to the top of the other side, and then bus them in turn - do it this way, to avoid creating a branch in the bus which will encourage reflections); I have done this mod on a Q18/Q18 backplane (a Sigma Q18/Q18), but have yet to actually try it. The only complication might come with termination/pull-ups. Not all backplanes have these built in (e.g. the DEC H9273/H9276 don't). But you might not need them - IIRC both the 11/23 and 11/73 have on-board termination which will pull the lines up. But if you _do_ need them... best bet, unless you want to start soldering resistors to the backplane, is a terminator board with Q22 pullups. That's a whole separate discussion which I will leave for the moment... :-) Noel From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 21 14:36:22 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 12:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> That's why I speak out against attempts to paint copyright violation as >> other things, such as theft: it's an appeal to emotions, trying to equate >> "thing I want people to oppose" with "very different thing I expect people >> already consider bad". It's a fundamentally dishonest bit of oratory. > > I write for a (meager) living. If someone were to take my work and decide for > themselves that it should be online for free, then they ARE stealing from me. > That is reality, not the semantics of case law. No, they're not stealing from you. Quit taking talking points from the RIAA. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 21 14:41:09 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 12:41:09 -0700 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D766C9.10800@charter.net> References: <55D7435E.8090707@update.uu.se> <55D766C9.10800@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D77ED5.80607@bitsavers.org> On 8/21/15 10:58 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > And probably many many more. > CHM has educational non-commercal agreements for the following: Apollo software from HP 68K based 9000 software from HP 21xx/1000 software from HP BTOS from Unisys Alto software from Xerox PARC And there are a string of source code releases that Len Shustek has spearheaded, including MacPaint/Quickdraw, Apple 2 DOS, APL Word for Windows, EA Deluxe Paint, Photoshop, and MSDOS, which can be found at http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Aug 21 15:03:19 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:03:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> Message-ID: <201508212003.QAA22712@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> That's why I speak out against attempts to paint copyright violation as oth$ Please don't misquote me. That was not all one line when I wrote it, it was not all one line when I saw it come back on the list, and it was not all one line when someone else quoted it; for you to quote it that way is misleading at best, giving the impression I don't know any better. I would think you, as a writer, would be especially aware of the hazards of misquoting. > I write for a (meager) living. If someone were to take my work and > decide for themselves that it should be online for free, then they > ARE stealing from me. You might prefer that were true. You might attempt to Humpty-Dumpty "stealing" in such a way. But that is not what the word means in law and it is not what the word means in ordinary usage. There is nothing you had before such an event that you no longer have after, except a higher chance that people willing to pay your price would do so. They are stealing from you about as much as someone who sets up shop selling apples for $0.90 a pound is stealing from someone next door selling apples for $2.00 a pound. It's illegal (the copyright infringement, that is, not the apple-seller). It's unethical and/or immoral (to most people). But stealing it is not. > That is reality, not the semantics of case law. Perhaps you would like others to believe that. Perhaps you believe it, even. But it is still false. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 15:49:18 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:49:18 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D76905.60100@sydex.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> <55D75AE6.1090100@btinternet.com> <55D762E4.50008@btinternet.com> <55D76905.60100@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 21 August 2015 at 14:08, Chuck Guzis wrote: > This leads to some interesting situations. Archibald Joyce wrote his > "Autumn Dreams" waltz in 1908 and it has been reported to be the tune the > orchestra was playing as the Titanic sank in 1912 (contrary to popular > belief, it is extremely unlikely that the band played "Nearer My God to > Thee" as they would not have been familiar with the hymn). > They might have been familiar with a different arrangement of the hymn tune; though no one really knows what was played during the sinking of the Titanic. > As Joyce lived to a ripe old age and died in 1963, the work is still very > much under copyright protection in the UK. However, the same work was > published in 1921 in the USA, so it is public domain there. > You want fun with music copyrights? Please go look at the IMSLP project. Here's their page on how copyrights work with regards to the sheet music/scores they are archiving: > As mentioned before, works of Soviet writers and composers were considered > to be PD (unless copyright was obtained outside of the USSR) by the US > during the Cold War--similarly, the USSR did not recognize foreign > copyright. So you could purchase the sheet music of Shostakovitch for a > pittance. After the fall of the Soviet Union, the US moved to "restore" > Soviet copyright and so removed works back into copyright status. If you > want to publish Shostakovitch, you now must deal with his estate--and > copyright will endure to about 2050. > > --Chuck > 2026 is when IMSLP will allow you to start uploading works by Shostakovitch to their archive. (Canadian servers only! The US and EU need to wait.) Regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From ethan at 757.org Fri Aug 21 15:56:42 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> <55D75AE6.1090100@btinternet.com> <55D762E4.50008@btinternet.com> <55D76905.60100@sydex.com> Message-ID: So when is the scanning party? -- Ethan O'Toole From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 21 16:30:54 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 14:30:54 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> <55D75AE6.1090100@btinternet.com> <55D762E4.50008@btinternet.com> <55D76905.60100@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D7988E.7030309@sydex.com> On 08/21/2015 01:49 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > You want fun with music copyrights? Please go look at the IMSLP > project. Here's their page on how copyrights work with regards to the > sheet music/scores they are archiving: > I'm very, very familiar with IMSLP as well as various other collections. I confess to have used a Canadian proxy server to get at some of the (non-PD, PD-Canada) scores for inspection. Dover, at one time, had quite a collection of Shostakovitch published--and then subsequently withdrew all of it when the copyrights were restored. The shame of it all is that this business extended to works for study that had been PD for several decades. My own collection, for example, includes scores for Shosti Symphonies 1-15. Can't arrange the stuff; can't republish it or duplicate it and probably not perform it without a "by your leave" from the estate (is Dmitry's widow still alive?). Sometimes, this business can get in the way, but you're stuck. For example, you'd think that the hymns of the US Armed Services would be all in the public domain. Not so! "Semper Paratus" for the USCG is used by them only by permission. The estate holding the rights firmly refuses to grant permission for arrangement. You want to see copyright and hungry lawyers? Cast a glance toward the music biz. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 21 16:34:11 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 14:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D76382.7040806@btinternet.com> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76382.7040806@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: > And... > We have a new question. What would have been the first piece of > copyrightable software? Combined with the issue that many lawyers and judges did not consider software to BE copyrightable. And then, there was a general consensus that the code was copyrightable, but not the performance. You could legally create your own Puckman program, so long as you didn't use any of their code. That led to projects such as Adam Osborne's Paperback Software, which did clean-room writing of duplicates of popular software. Until Lotus stomped him. That led to Look&Stink protection, sometimes extending to the sequence and names of the choices in a normal "Files" menu. At the time, if Adam were to have been a few months earlier in acquiring any of the rubble of VisiCorp, it could have been all over! Delrina was not upheld on their "parody" defense of Opus & Bill shooting flying toasters, in which the "victim" was an infringer of an album cover. Consider Xerox in the Windoze/Mac copyright battle! Many have always considered fundamental concepts to not be copyrightable. Where would MICROS~1 be if Gary Kildall were to have been litigious? (Novell's acquisition of DRI was solely for the IP rights, as a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card against any Microsoft attack) From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 21 16:49:27 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:49:27 -0500 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> Message-ID: <55D79CE7.1000407@charter.net> On 8/21/2015 1:50 PM, tony duell wrote: > > I will happily agree that it is both morally and legally a crime to distribute somebody else's > work that they get income from. The discussion of manuals and software here refers to > items that the original author/company cannot or will not provide any longer. It is > still a legal crime to distribute such work without permission I think, but I don't feel it is a > moral crime. Nobody is really losing money as a result (which is probably why some > companies specifically allow it and many more turn a blind eye.) > > -tony > To that last part - a few years back I corresponded via e-mail one of IBM's legal counsel, to see if I could get permission to provide scanned copies of IBM 1410 manuals. (Really, it was pretty amazing that he even took the time to correspond with me). IBM never gave the permission. I got the feeling that the issue was that nobody was willing to sign off internally that IBM could never derive any value from them in the future, even though clearly they never would. The problem was really cultural / organizational - there really was never any question about any real issues for them. And yet I am pretty sure those involved with bitsavers are reasonably confident that IBM would never sue them. ;) Or, if IBM did, that the damages, after worst case tripling, would be something under $0.03, ala Queens Bench VII. ;) ;) JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 21 16:54:10 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:54:10 -0500 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> Message-ID: <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> So, how does one de-yellow something? I have a VT-100 and some other gear that could use that process. JRJ On 8/21/2015 1:15 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Going to be de-yellowing a //e Platinum this weekend. Check out this > picture of the top cover. You can see the non-yellowed part on bottom. > Big difference! I'll post "after" pictures. > > http://snarc.net/yellowing.jpg > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Aug 21 16:53:50 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 22:53:50 +0100 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <55D79DEE.2070508@btinternet.com> Hardly a surprise I'm 67 On 21/08/2015 18:50, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> >> So what is the lifetime of a software copyright ? >> > You're going to die before it expires. Quite possibly your grand > children as well. > > g. > From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 21 17:00:26 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:00:26 -0500 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76382.7040806@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <55D79F7A.1090605@charter.net> On 8/21/2015 4:34 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Where would MICROS~1 be if Gary Kildall were to have been litigious? How so? Digital Research spurned IBM, and would have had to take IBM on as well as Microsoft. Litigious or not, it would have been a seriously uphill battle. JRJ From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Aug 21 17:09:02 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 23:09:02 +0100 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> <55D70031.9050307@btinternet.com> <01df01d0dc0d$ee882610$cb987230$@gmail.com> <55D73623.6080504@btinternet.com> <55D73971.6020904@telegraphics.com.au> <55D73AE1.9030407@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <55D7A17E.5000701@btinternet.com> I'm sure they are very nice and totally harmless. All that was required was ("in Danish") after the link. I must say I could not make any sense of the system models they seem to be refering to. Was there a home grown system of some sort.? Kinda a Dansk Data On 21/08/2015 19:09, Ian S. King wrote: > My email wasn't 'go look at this site', it was 'I visited these nice > people' with the link as a courtesy. What 'norm'? > On Aug 21, 2015 4:51 PM, "Rod Smallwood" > wrote: > >> Yes indeed "danger wears a coat of many colours" >> >> Rod >> >> >> On 21/08/2015 15:45, Toby Thain wrote: >> >>> On 2015-08-21 10:30 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> Yes I know, but its not the norm to link from an English language email >>>> to a site in another language with no warning. >>>> I suppose they think everybody speaks Danish. >>>> >>>> You could be heading into some real dark places without knowing. RuleI'm s >>>> >>> No "darker" than any English language site. >>> >>> >>> --Toby >>> >>> >>> >>>> Rod >>>> >>>> >>>> On 21/08/2015 13:35, Dave G4UGM wrote: >>>> >>>>> Google Translate does a reasonable job... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdatamuseum.dk%2Fddhf-samlinger&edit-text=&act=url >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >>>>>> Smallwood >>>>>> Sent: 21 August 2015 11:41 >>>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: out-of-mainstream minis >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sure its very intersting. >>>>>> The website is designed for domestic consumption only as its all in >>>>>> Danish. >>>>>> >>>>>> Rod >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 21/08/2015 11:27, Ian S. King wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I had the privilege of visiting what Nico calls a 'museum-to-be' >>>>>>> yesterday evening, and it is far more than most of what I've seen! >>>>>>> They have a very substantial collection of all sorts of systems, >>>>>>> peripherals and documentation, including a GIER from ca. 1962 that I >>>>>>> saw >>>>>>> >>>>>> (and heard) run. >>>>>> >>>>>>> As a debugging/operations aid, they had attached the overflow bit to a >>>>>>> speaker so it could generate 1-bit sound - one demo they gave me was a >>>>>>> program to calculate e that played a sound for each iteration so you >>>>>>> could hear the steady progress. But of course if there is a sound >>>>>>> output, no one can avoid playing with it. There were numerous pieces >>>>>>> of computationally generated music composed for the machine (on paper >>>>>>> tape), but also a program for playing a recorded, real-life sound in >>>>>>> 1-bit >>>>>>> >>>>>> audio! >>>>>> >>>>>>> The collection includes numerous other computers including pretty much >>>>>>> the entire RC line, as well as pre-computer tabulators, keypunches, >>>>>>> paper handling machine and the like. The artifacts are well-ordered >>>>>>> and in large part well labeled for even the uninitiated visitor. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Everything is laid out quite thoughtfully, with wide aisles, in a >>>>>>> large, well-lit basement. There are interpretive displays here and >>>>>>> there, as well as a small but appealing lecture/display area. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The datamuseum.dk collection represents 25 years of accumulation, I >>>>>>> was told. But more importantly, I think their work demonstrates a >>>>>>> very well-considered approach for presenting the history of the >>>>>>> collection's machines to visitors. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My hosts were also warm and wonderful people who clearly love what >>>>>>> they do and enjoy sharing it. They made me feel among friends, if not >>>>>>> family. :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, Finn and everyone else (sorry, I'm bad with names), for >>>>>>> sharing your time and your passion with me! -- Ian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:43 AM, Nico de Jong >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I share your favourite(s). In the danish IT-museum-to-be ( >>>>>>>> www.datamuseum.dk) we have two P857-based systems running. We >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> lots of spare parts and nearly all documentation, so if you need >>>>>>>> something, you are welcome to ask. >>>>>>>> I'm presently building a "table top" version of a system with the >>>>>>>> P857 CPU, 35cm H x 60 deep x 19" wide, with a dual 8" floppy drive, >>>>>>>> and a 80486 PC for program loading etc. >>>>>>>> The system is built into a P859 box. The P859 CPU is special, as it >>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>> V24 connection that goes to a LED display with push buttons. Very >>>>>>>> nice indeed. >>>>>>>> For that system, I have developped a Windows based Assembler, and a >>>>>>>> Windows based simulator. The simulator takes assembled programs (in >>>>>>>> my system called *.OBJ) and the original source. You can then step >>>>>>>> through the instructions, and follow them through the text file on >>>>>>>> the PC. >>>>>>>> I am presently trying to execute various utility programs, sent to me >>>>>>>> by a Belgion ex-Philips employee, who did a lot of work on the P800 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> series. >>>>>>> I myself worked with the P800 series, disguised as the PTS6800 series >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> 4-5 years full time. >>>>>>>> The PTS 6800 series was used extensively in banks, mainly in >>>>>>>> Scandinavia, Greece, Barclay SouthAfrica, Philippines. In Sweden also >>>>>>>> in the airline industry. In Denmark it was used mainly by local >>>>>>>> authorities, PTT, Railway (ticket printing), and some other >>>>>>>> small-time projects. In one of the project it was connected to an >>>>>>>> ATM (fun >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> project). >>>>>>> I know of one collector in the Netherlands (Camiel), and some guys >>>>>>>> who have no hardware but a lot of knowledge /Nico >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: tony duell >>>>>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 7:31 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: RE: out-of-mainstream minis >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Not all minis came from the States :-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One of my favourite non-mainstream families is the Philips P800 >>>>>>>> series. >>>>>>>> It's >>>>>>>> a 16 bit machine with 16 registers (0 is the program counter >>>>>>>> and 15 >>>>>>>> is the stack pointer, rest are mostly general purpose) and >>>>>>>> separate >>>>>>>> I/O instructions (not memory-mapped I/O). There were several >>>>>>>> models >>>>>>>> with various implementations of the architecture, including >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> P850 (TTL, hardwired not microcoded) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> P855, P852, P856, P857, P860 (TTL, microcoded) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> P851 (Custom bitslice ICs, microcoded) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> P854 (AM2900 bitslice, microcoded) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> P853 I think (Single chip) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No, I don't have all of those... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -tony >>>>>>>> = >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 21 17:17:12 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <201508212003.QAA22712@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> <201508212003.QAA22712@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Mouse wrote: > But that is not what the word means in law and it is not what the word > means in ordinary usage. I'm confused on some of the terminology. I don't think that I'm alone. A friend of mine was in law school before he'd believe me that "burglary" and "robbery" were not fully synonymous. > There is nothing you had before such an event > that you no longer have after, So, "steal", "theft"? require a component of having already gotten possession? Somebody who takes your packages off of the Fedex or USPS truck is not "steal"ing from you? If your publisher promises you $10 for every copy, then somebody who cancels their order to make their own unauthorized copy did not "steal" your $10? Howabout somebody who buys COD and stops payment? (apparently habitually) I had a college administrator cancel PO for "non-delivery" AFTER calling for installation tech support. > willing to pay your price would do so. They are stealing from you > about as much as someone who sets up shop selling apples for $0.90 a > pound is stealing from someone next door selling apples for $2.00 a > pound. But, after months of hauling six truckloads a day of apples that we bought for $0.90 a pound at the orchard to the neighborhood where we sold them for $0.90 a pound, we realized that we needed a bigger truck. > It's illegal (the copyright infringement, that is, not the > apple-seller). It's unethical and/or immoral (to most people). But > stealing it is not. Is "theft of service" valid under the law? Is "Intellectual Property" an oxymoron? >> That is reality, not the semantics of case law. > Perhaps you would like others to believe that. Perhaps you believe it, > even. But it is still false. It is too bad, when "SHOULD" and "LEGAL" are orthogonal. I have had software that I was not legally entitled to, but also I have dealt with infringement of my trademark, and with unauthorized distribution of my copyrighted materials. I haven't patented anything. Somebody suggested that failure to curtail infringement be considered defacto abandonment - I have to disagree, sometimes it's just not reasonable to make the effort. Somebody said that old software should be very cheap. And should be reduced in price proportionately to the reduced retail value of the hardware. Sure. Does that mean that the Altair BASIC or Apple 1 BRICKOUT should now be inordinately expensive? And labor costs have not gone down. (See our apple sales business model) Bob Wallace once explained to me that it seemed that public "perceived value" (what they sent in when wanting to pay for what they had acquired through copying) was consistently based on Marginal Cost Of Production, without a component of development costs. By contracting for the "help" of publishers, I have had some projects that were a lot of work but didn't recoup expenses. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 21 17:18:22 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: > So, how does one de-yellow something? I have a VT-100 and some other > gear that could use that process. UBIK From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com Fri Aug 21 17:19:28 2015 From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 08:19:28 +1000 Subject: out-of-mainstream minis In-Reply-To: References: <6F4A06FE-3053-44EF-B238-538278AE125D@nf6x.net> <20150701212152.GB28717@lonesome.com> <20150701222204.GA32752@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > The datamuseum.dk collection represents 25 years of accumulation, I was > told. But more importantly, I think their work demonstrates a very > well-considered approach for presenting the history of the collection's > machines to visitors. Thanks to the people who reminded me of this place; I had looked online at their collection some time back; but I revisited it again and GOOG translate revealed a previously unnoticed artifact of interest. One of the museum people is very helpfully tracking down more information for me. From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 21 17:19:54 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:19:54 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <201508212003.QAA22712@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> <201508212003.QAA22712@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <55D7A40A.4060108@snarc.net> >>> That's why I speak out against attempts to paint copyright violation as oth$ > Please don't misquote me. That was not all one line when I wrote it, it was not all one line when I saw it come back on the list, and it was not all one line when someone else quoted it; for you to quote it that way is misleading at best, giving the impression I don't know any better. I would think you, as a writer, would be especially aware of the hazards of misquoting. I'm not the person who wrote what you quoted. Idiot. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 21 17:25:42 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D79F7A.1090605@charter.net> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76382.7040806@btinternet.com> <55D79F7A.1090605@charter.net> Message-ID: >> Where would MICROS~1 be if Gary Kildall were to have been litigious? > On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: > How so? Digital Research spurned IBM, and would have had to take IBM > on as well as Microsoft. Litigious or not, it would have been a > seriously uphill battle. The influence and basis on, of MS-DOS and CP/M is undenied. In fact, the clear copyright issue was apparently why IBM chose to ALSO sell CP/M-86. However, there are disagreements about whether the pricing choice was an IBM effort to sabotage the CP/M-86 sales, or a serious error by DRI. (I believe the latter) But, Gary (and Xerox Parc) was not litigious. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Aug 21 17:28:30 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 23:28:30 +0100 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76382.7040806@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <55D7A60E.3030403@btinternet.com> It also brings up another issue. When they did finally get some legal stuff into place (circa 1988 over here) was it retrospective.? If not then by definition anything prior is not protected and my be freely distributed. Rod On 21/08/2015 22:34, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> And... >> We have a new question. What would have been the first piece of >> copyrightable software? > > Combined with the issue that many lawyers and judges did not consider > software to BE copyrightable. > > And then, there was a general consensus that the code was > copyrightable, but not the performance. You could legally create your > own Puckman program, so long as you didn't use any of their code. > That led to projects such as Adam Osborne's Paperback Software, which > did clean-room writing of duplicates of popular software. Until Lotus > stomped him. > That led to Look&Stink protection, sometimes extending to the sequence > and names of the choices in a normal "Files" menu. > > At the time, if Adam were to have been a few months earlier in > acquiring any of the rubble of VisiCorp, it could have been all over! > Delrina was not upheld on their "parody" defense of Opus & Bill > shooting flying toasters, in which the "victim" was an infringer of an > album cover. > Consider Xerox in the Windoze/Mac copyright battle! > Many have always considered fundamental concepts to not be copyrightable. > Where would MICROS~1 be if Gary Kildall were to have been litigious? > (Novell's acquisition of DRI was solely for the IP rights, as a "Get > Out Of Jail Free" card against any Microsoft attack) > > > From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 21 17:28:39 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:28:39 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> > So, how does one de-yellow something? I have a VT-100 and some other > gear that could use that process. Google for "Retr0brite". MARCH is having a repair workshop this weekend at our museum in NJ. We're going to use a product called "BBlonde" which is made for women's hair but apparently works pretty well on yellowed plastic. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 21 17:40:50 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D7A60E.3030403@btinternet.com> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76382.7040806@btinternet.com> <55D7A60E.3030403@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: > It also brings up another issue. When they did finally get some legal stuff > into place (circa 1988 over here) was it retrospective.? > If not then by definition anything prior is not protected and my be freely > distributed. If it were changes in the law, then it would NOT be retroactive unless explicitly declaring itself to be. HOWEVER, since it was "interpretation" of existing law, it would intrinsically be retroactive, although there would be a presumption that actions based on current consensus would be in good faith. (NOT held true in Lotus V Paperback) Fortunately, since the rulings seem to have tended to be primarily injunctive rather than monetary damages, it has not created a flood of old cases. IANAL, do not rely on any of this. From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 21 17:48:59 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:48:59 -0500 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76382.7040806@btinternet.com> <55D79F7A.1090605@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D7AADB.6090902@charter.net> On 8/21/2015 5:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Where would MICROS~1 be if Gary Kildall were to have been litigious? >> > On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> How so? Digital Research spurned IBM, and would have had to take IBM >> on as well as Microsoft. Litigious or not, it would have been a >> seriously uphill battle. > > The influence and basis on, of MS-DOS and CP/M is undenied. > Influence does not necessarily constitute intellectual property. If it were, DEC could have sued the pants off of Kildall for concepts stolen from their operating systems. IBM likewise. Kildall certainly didn't invent very much. By the same logic of "influence", AT&T and probably others could have sued the pants off of Microsoft and IBM for the influence UNIX had on MS-DOS 2.0 (just look at the list of system calls). But, the reality would have been that there was nothing to base a case on. And on and on and on. (Back in those days there was also no idea of software patents). Even if Kildall had been litigious, it would not have made any difference to where Microsoft ended up. Even if he would have had a case, he could simply have been bought out. > In fact, the clear copyright issue was apparently why IBM chose to ALSO > sell CP/M-86. However, there are disagreements about whether the > pricing choice was an IBM effort to sabotage the CP/M-86 sales, or a > serious error by DRI. (I believe the latter) Nonsense. Absolute rubbish. Not a chance. There was no copyright issue, not in any way. Find me a written reference that says otherwise, and I might change my mind. The written records I have read state that Kildall finally came to his senses way way late, and realized what a market opportunity the IBM PC represented. But by then he was too late. By every account I have read, he blew off a meeting arranged by Gates that would have been a chance to sell his operating system, so IBM asked Gates to see if he could find an alternative elsewhere and found what eventually became MS-DOS, and the rest is history, as they say. Even had IBM been somehow responsible for the disparity in the pricing, DRI could have marketed it on their own anyway. The truth of the matter seems to be that Kildall just didn't have any business acumen, and Gates, who did, rolled right over him after he blew his chance. > > > But, Gary (and Xerox Parc) was not litigious. > Xerox was not necessarily not ligitious. They just had no clue about the value of the technology they had, and failed to protect it in any meaningful way. That is also a matter of written record. JRJ From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Aug 21 17:48:34 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 00:48:34 +0200 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> <201508212003.QAA22712@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <55D7AAC2.8040504@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-22 00:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Mouse wrote: >> But that is not what the word means in law and it is not what the word >> means in ordinary usage. > > I'm confused on some of the terminology. I don't think that I'm alone. > A friend of mine was in law school before he'd believe me that > "burglary" and "robbery" were not fully synonymous. And they aren't synonymous. The point being...? >> There is nothing you had before such an event >> that you no longer have after, > So, "steal", "theft"? require a component of having already gotten > possession? Yes. > Somebody who takes your packages off of the Fedex or USPS truck is not > "steal"ing from you? Correct. He is stealing from Fedex or USPS. The fact that the package was destined for you don't mean he stole it from you, since you did not have it. > If your publisher promises you $10 for every copy, then somebody who > cancels their order to make their own unauthorized copy did not "steal" > your $10? What $10? You never had them, how could someone steal them from you? > Howabout somebody who buys COD and stops payment? (apparently habitually) > I had a college administrator cancel PO for "non-delivery" AFTER calling > for installation tech support. That is, I believe, a breach of contract. Fraudulent. >> It's illegal (the copyright infringement, that is, not the >> apple-seller). It's unethical and/or immoral (to most people). But >> stealing it is not. > > Is "theft of service" valid under the law? Theft of service... I have a hard time understanding that concept. > Is "Intellectual Property" an oxymoron? Sortof. It's an established term, but it do not actually refer to a physical property. But there are many established terms which are oxymorons. >>> That is reality, not the semantics of case law. >> Perhaps you would like others to believe that. Perhaps you believe it, >> even. But it is still false. > > It is too bad, when "SHOULD" and "LEGAL" are orthogonal. Legal, I think is a rather strict term, which have nothing to do with words like "should", "sensible", "human", or even "logical". :-) > I have had software that I was not legally entitled to, but also I have > dealt with infringement of my trademark, and with unauthorized > distribution of my copyrighted materials. I haven't patented anything. > Somebody suggested that failure to curtail infringement be considered > defacto abandonment - I have to disagree, sometimes it's just not > reasonable to make the effort. I agree. Legal is sometimes weird. But we cannot ignore it. But here I thought we were just discussing what theft was. :-) And I think all have agreed with you that copying and making your work available without you getting reimbursed is illegal. and bad. We have just disagreed that the crime should be called theft. Using the word theft is just trying to pervert a word, and try to make people think and associate with other actions that they really should not. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From Mark at Misty.com Fri Aug 21 17:52:35 2015 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:52:35 -0400 Subject: Cheap board guy In-Reply-To: <20150821190025.4356418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150821190025.4356418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20150821225235.GA14629@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 03:00:25PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Mark G. Thomas > > 4x M8192 - KDJ11 (AA or AB?) -- two work, two fail POST > > And alas, we don't seem to have any prints for that card (although we do have > what amounts to a tech manual, so maybe we can create a set, with a certain > amount of tracing with an ohmmeter), so at the moment, at least, fixing them > isn't so easy. I lucked out. One of the dead ones had a broken trace on the bottom, and cracked corner of the socket for one of the big square chips. The second one started working after I simply re-seated the two square chips around their sockets. > > I was hoping I could boot XXDP or RT11 from an RX33/RQDX3. The > > RX33/RQDX3 works in my 11/53 > > Well, that's a very good sign... > > > Since none of this has a bootstrap, I run the bootstrap from ROM > > provided by a Dilog SCSI card here, but typing "DU" or "DU0" at the > > prompt spins the floppy ever-so-briefly, then kicks out an error about > > no boot media found. Suggestions? Maybe I should try other bootstrap? > > Definitely; the code on the Dilog card might not support that controller > properly (even though it seems to recognize "DU"). Ok. Next step is try real DEC bootstrap code. > > I'm a little confused about what should work and what should not work, > > with just the 18 bit qbus. > > If you have less than 256KB of memory (so Q22 processors won't wrap around, > when trying to size memory, and think there's memory there above 256K - > although Q18 memory probably will stop responding at 248KB, anyway), pretty > much everything _should_ work, I would think. The high address lines being > put out by the processor, DMA devices, etc should just have no effect. > Although the details get tricky... Well, now both my 11/23 and 11/73 CPUs work with the MSV11-DB cards. > E.g. if you don't have BDAL18-21 for a Q22 memory card, what will its bus > interface do when faced with those lines, which aren't driven in any way - > _especially_ not pulled up by terminators? Some DEC memory cards (e.g. > MSV11-L, M8059) have jumpers to run in either Q18 or Q22 mode, to work around > this. Eventually, I'd love to get one of these running 2.11BSD, with a KDJ11 CPU and a Clearpoint(?) Q22 memory card from my 11/53. I'm thinking I can make a plexiglass shell to show off the cards, and it will be small enough to fit on my desk at work, if I commit the sin of putting a switching supply in it. > > Do I need to wire wrap the additional address lines to be able to do > > anything with these KDJ11 CPUs? > > No, if you have less than 256KB of memory, the high bits should just be > ignored (I think - I haven't actually tried this, to be absolutely sure). > > > Does anyone have good instructions for this modification -- I'll > > probably want to do it. Do I just add the additional address lines, or > > are there other considerations? > > I have modified an H9273 backplane (Q18) to H9276 (Q22), and it works fine; > all I did was bus all the BDAL18-21 pins together: pretty easy, as it's a > Q/CD backplane, not a Q/Q - just run a wire down, and solder it to each pin > as it goes (those backplanes don't have the pins stick out far enough for > wire wrap). > > Q/Q will be only slightly more complicated (since you have to bus down one > side, then run the signals up and across to the top of the other side, and > then bus them in turn - do it this way, to avoid creating a branch in the bus > which will encourage reflections); I have done this mod on a Q18/Q18 > backplane (a Sigma Q18/Q18), but have yet to actually try it. These backplanes are just "Q/" -- they are double connector (single card) wide. They have long wire wrap pins, so it should be easy. > The only complication might come with termination/pull-ups. Not all > backplanes have these built in (e.g. the DEC H9273/H9276 don't). But you > might not need them - IIRC both the 11/23 and 11/73 have on-board termination > which will pull the lines up. But if you _do_ need them... best bet, unless There are terminators soldered onto the backplanes, or rather one of the two, since someone modified it to bus them together and unsoldered the terminators from the one. I'll put them back when I split these backplanes apart. > you want to start soldering resistors to the backplane, is a terminator board > with Q22 pullups. That's a whole separate discussion which I will leave for > the moment... :-) Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 18:06:20 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:06:20 -0500 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76382.7040806@btinternet.com> <55D7A60E.3030403@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2015, at 5:40 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > If it were changes in the law, then it would NOT be retroactive unless explicitly declaring itself to be. Different places are different, but the US constitution explicity prohibits ex post facto laws. From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Aug 21 18:06:44 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:06:44 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> Message-ID: <012001d0dc66$0d09def0$271d9cd0$@net> > MARCH is having a repair workshop this weekend at our museum in NJ. > We're going to use a product called "BBlonde" which is made for women's > hair but apparently works pretty well on yellowed plastic. Evan, Is this something you need to mix like Retrobright? Or is it ready to go out of the bottle? Also any long term experience with it? From discussion on VCF it seems as Retrobright fails after some time passes (i.e. re-yellowing occurs). I'd be interested in hearing/seeing the results. -Ali From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Aug 21 18:09:10 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:09:10 -0700 Subject: New post take longer to appear then replies? Message-ID: <012101d0dc66$6489ed00$2d9dc700$@net> Just wondering if new posts are moderated vs. replies? I posted a new message to the list a few hours ago and it still has not shown up. However, a reply to a preexisting message I sent out a few minutes ago has already appeared. Thanks. From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 18:09:22 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:09:22 -0500 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <012001d0dc66$0d09def0$271d9cd0$@net> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <012001d0dc66$0d09def0$271d9cd0$@net> Message-ID: <2185D4B4-CC09-4ED0-A70D-56639A7C7D67@gmail.com> On Aug 21, 2015, at 6:06 PM, Ali wrote: > Is this something you need to mix like Retrobright? Or is it ready to go out > of the bottle? Also any long term experience with it? From discussion on VCF > it seems as Retrobright fails after some time passes (i.e. re-yellowing > occurs). I'd be interested in hearing/seeing the results. Another option (albeit slow acting, pro/con) is using straight 3% hydrogen peroxide + UV like you get at the drug store. I used this method on a few of my Commodore 128D pieces that were yellowed. It does act very slow, but that might not be such a bad thing considering people have had issues with blotchiness with stronger treatments. From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Aug 21 18:10:35 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:10:35 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? Message-ID: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> Hello All, Recently I came across a complete Pertec interface (card, manual, software, and, cables) thanks to list-member Shaun. Of course what is the point of having an interface if you have nothing to interface it to! So I've been looking at, and learning a bit, about 1/2" tape drives. I've also looked into acquiring one. But before going down this path I wanted to see what pitfalls, warning signs, etc. I should be on the lookout for. I am looking for a unit mostly to experience the tech and to play around with. I do not plan on recovering data from any particular system or format. However, it would be nice if I could setup a system that actually worked for backups of say an IBM AT for demonstration purposes. Having read some old InfoWorld and PC Mag articles I can see there were a number of tape drive manufacturers well into the early 90s. Based on the reviews the Cipher and Qualstar units seem to be well suited for my purposes. Any other brand/models I should keep an eye out for. I know IBM also had some 1/2" 9 track tape drives (9437 and 9438) but neither was a Pertec interface from what I have gleaned. The 9347 used a proprietary interface and the 9348 used HVD SCSI which is atypical. There was apparently a 9348-012 model which used narrow SCSI so should interface with a standard Adaptec card. However, I have not been able to determine if it used standard SCSI commands and could be accessed say with a tape backup program under Windows 9x/NT or DOS. Of course the biggest problem is finding one locally in the LA area. Unfortunately my only resource is eBay and prices there are definitely not hobbyist friendly (not to mention shipping). If anyone has a line on a working drive in the LA area (to save on S&H and avoid the dangers of shipping) or a reasonably priced one elsewhere I'd appreciate it. TIA for any help. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 21 18:14:47 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <55D7AADB.6090902@charter.net> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76382.7040806@btinternet.com> <55D79F7A.1090605@charter.net> <55D7AADB.6090902@charter.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: > The written records I have read state that Kildall finally came to his > senses way way late, and realized what a market opportunity the IBM PC > represented. But by then he was too late. By every account I have > read, he blew off a meeting arranged by Gates that would have been a > chance to sell his operating system, Yes There are conflicting accounts of what happened, but it is undeniable that he failed to take advantage of an incredible opportunity. Most of the accounts have gaps in credibility. Flying up to Oakland to deliver some documentation is certainly NOT a task that couldn't have been delegated. Kildall's defenders make too much of IBM's NDAs; some of his dtractors portray it as a purely cultural clash. A few years ago, I went and visited the house, and I can easily see that. > so IBM asked Gates to see if he > could find an alternative elsewhere and found what eventually became > MS-DOS, and the rest is history, as they say. Even had IBM been somehow > responsible for the disparity in the pricing, DRI could have marketed it > on their own anyway. The truth of the matter seems to be that Kildall > just didn't have any business acumen, and Gates, who did, rolled right > over him after he blew his chance. Yes. Kildall didn't have any business acumen, and Gates did. From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 18:18:28 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:18:28 -0500 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76382.7040806@btinternet.com> <55D79F7A.1090605@charter.net> Message-ID: <97B9CF8C-4FF2-43CE-88DF-67F93F9B0EAD@gmail.com> On Aug 21, 2015, at 5:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > In fact, the clear copyright issue was apparently why IBM chose to ALSO sell CP/M-86. However, there are disagreements about whether the pricing choice was an IBM effort to sabotage the CP/M-86 sales, or a serious error by DRI. (I believe the latter) > The way I've heard the story before, was that Kildall was surprised when he finally saw the price sheet for the pricing of CP/M-86 vs PC-DOS. I guess we can either interpret that as he priced it too high and had no idea what MS were charging for PC-DOS, or that IBM deliberately priced them out of the market. From jsw at ieee.org Fri Aug 21 18:19:06 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:19:06 -0500 Subject: Cheap board guy In-Reply-To: <20150821190025.4356418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150821190025.4356418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:00 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Mark G. Thomas > >> 4x M8192 - KDJ11 (AA or AB?) -- two work, two fail POST > > And alas, we don't seem to have any prints for that card (although we do have > what amounts to a tech manual, so maybe we can create a set, with a certain > amount of tracing with an ohmmeter), so at the moment, at least, fixing them > isn't so easy. > I picked up one KDJ11-AA and two DLV11J?s. The serial boards were fine. At first I thought the KDJ11 was DOA as well but when I toggled the the power supply (w8 removed and internal wakeup) quickly, it boots RT11 and TSX+. Q-Bus voltages seem within specs, but more to investigate. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 21 18:22:55 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D7AAC2.8040504@update.uu.se> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> <201508212003.QAA22712@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7AAC2.8040504@update.uu.se> Message-ID: >>> But that is not what the word means in law and it is not what the word >>> means in ordinary usage. >> I'm confused on some of the terminology. I don't think that I'm alone. >> A friend of mine was in law school before he'd believe me that >> "burglary" and "robbery" were not fully synonymous. > On Sat, 22 Aug 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: > And they aren't synonymous. The point being...? Just an example that most of the public do NOT know most of the terms. >>> There is nothing you had before such an event >>> that you no longer have after, >> So, "steal", "theft"? require a component of having already gotten >> possession? > Yes. Thank you. THAT is the key element then. >> Somebody who takes your packages off of the Fedex or USPS truck is not >> "steal"ing from you? > Correct. He is stealing from Fedex or USPS. The fact that the package was > destined for you don't mean he stole it from you, since you did not have it. OK >> Howabout somebody who buys COD and stops payment? (apparently habitually) >> I had a college administrator cancel PO for "non-delivery" AFTER calling >> for installation tech support. > That is, I believe, a breach of contract. Fraudulent. both. The component of "prior possesion" V "entitled to" clarifies that. >> Is "theft of service" valid under the law? > Theft of service... I have a hard time understanding that concept. >> Is "Intellectual Property" an oxymoron? > Sortof. It's an established term, but it do not actually refer to a physical > property. > But there are many established terms which are oxymorons. Understood > I agree. Legal is sometimes weird. But we cannot ignore it. > > But here I thought we were just discussing what theft was. :-) mostly, but also in the context of where we are facing it. I appreciate your clarification of the "theft" term. > And I think all have agreed with you that copying and making your work > available without you getting reimbursed is illegal. and bad. We have just > disagreed that the crime should be called theft. Using the word theft is just > trying to pervert a word, and try to make people think and associate with > other actions that they really should not. That summarizes it well. Thank you for the detailed reply. It is nice to be able to discuss these things without heavy emotions and/or self-serving rationalizations. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Aug 21 18:25:44 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:25:44 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <2185D4B4-CC09-4ED0-A70D-56639A7C7D67@gmail.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <012001d0dc66$0d09def0$271d9cd0$@net> <2185D4B4-CC09-4ED0-A70D-56639A7C7D67@gmail.com> Message-ID: <012901d0dc68$b46b6130$1d422390$@net> > Another option (albeit slow acting, pro/con) is using straight 3% > hydrogen peroxide + UV like you get at the drug store. I used this > method on a few of my Commodore 128D pieces that were yellowed. It does > act very slow, but that might not be such a bad thing considering > people have had issues with blotchiness with stronger treatment How much slower? Days vs. hours? Also what happens when you leave it on overnight? Or do you use a UV light? Thanks. -Ali From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 21 18:34:32 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: <97B9CF8C-4FF2-43CE-88DF-67F93F9B0EAD@gmail.com> References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76382.7040806@btinternet.com> <55D79F7A.1090605@charter.net> <97B9CF8C-4FF2-43CE-88DF-67F93F9B0EAD@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > The way I've heard the story before, was that Kildall was surprised when > he finally saw the price sheet for the pricing of CP/M-86 vs PC-DOS. I I've heard that, but it was from people who did not think that the original contact with IBM was mishandled. > guess we can either interpret that as he priced it too high and had no > idea what MS were charging for PC-DOS, or that IBM deliberately priced > them out of the market. It could have been either. I tend towards thinking that it was DRI's mistake. I do not have the business experience nor acumen to have any idea how much lead time there was on pricing, nor how long a price change would take. When the PC came out (August 1981), I got MS-DOS, is was the only thing available. I assumed that once it was available that CP/M-86 would become the standard. When it came out, at a high price, I STILL thought that it would become the standard eventually, but stayed with MS-DOS waiting for that. I really don't think that I was alone in that thinking. But, the long delay, "waiting for CP/M-86 to become the standard", was long enough for MS-DOS to become solidly entrenched, and in the early versions, there was no obvious advantage to justify switching. When CP/M-86 came down in price, it was too late. (and maybe it should have come down ALL the way to MS-DOS price ($60? V $40 was the later price)) From lproven at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 18:59:03 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 01:59:03 +0200 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76382.7040806@btinternet.com> <55D79F7A.1090605@charter.net> <97B9CF8C-4FF2-43CE-88DF-67F93F9B0EAD@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 22 August 2015 at 01:34, Fred Cisin wrote: > and maybe it should have come down ALL the way to MS-DOS price Arguably -- and I'm aware it's stretching a point -- it did, in the form of DR-DOS. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 21 18:59:42 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 19:59:42 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> <201508212003.QAA22712@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1FED23EE-E8F0-4A65-B2AD-B7EC5BDD0370@comcast.net> > On Aug 21, 2015, at 6:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Mouse wrote: >> But that is not what the word means in law and it is not what the word >> means in ordinary usage. > > I'm confused on some of the terminology. I don't think that I'm alone. > A friend of mine was in law school before he'd believe me that "burglary" and "robbery" were not fully synonymous. No, they aren't even close in law or in proper English. They do get mixed a lot by illiterate TV "reporters". But burglary involves entering a home to steal property but not to confront the residents, while robbery means taking from a person by violence. So "not fully synonymous" is rather a bizarre way of putting it; it's a bit like saying that orange and blue are not fully synonymous. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 21 19:00:59 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:00:59 -0400 Subject: Vintage Software Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <201508211547.LAA24043@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201508211625.MAA25936@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D758BA.2080706@btinternet.com> <55D75BDE.6030406@btinternet.com> <55D7608E.8020707@sydex.com> <55D76382.7040806@btinternet.com> <55D7A60E.3030403@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 21, 2015, at 7:06 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > > > On Aug 21, 2015, at 5:40 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> If it were changes in the law, then it would NOT be retroactive unless explicitly declaring itself to be. > > Different places are different, but the US constitution explicity prohibits ex post facto laws. So it does, and that restriction is obeyed just as little as most other Constitutional prohibitions. paul From lproven at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 19:08:47 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 02:08:47 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_In_Realtime=3A_Saving_25=2C000_Manuals_=E2=80=94_August_15?= =?UTF-8?Q?=2C_2015?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 15 August 2015 at 13:03, Liam Proven wrote: > http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 > > Apologies if this is old news... Some pictures, from sun-rescue: https://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/albums/72157657277241785/page1 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 19:09:32 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:09:32 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 4:10 PM, Ali wrote: > Hello All, > > Recently I came across a complete Pertec interface (card, manual, software, > and, cables) thanks to list-member Shaun. Of course what is the point of > having an interface if you have nothing to interface it to! > Of course the biggest problem is finding one locally in the LA area. > Unfortunately my only resource is eBay and prices there are definitely not > hobbyist friendly (not to mention shipping). If anyone has a line on a > working drive in the LA area (to save on S&H and avoid the dangers of > shipping) or a reasonably priced one elsewhere I'd appreciate it. TIA for > any help. I have had good results with Fujitsu M2444AC Pertec interface 9-track 1/2-inch tape drives. I have an ISA bus Computer Logics PCTD-16 Pertec interface card which I can connect to the drive to read and write tapes from a PC, and various Q-Bus Pertec interface cards which I have used to install software from tape on PDP-11 systems (just for the exercise of doing it a few times). http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/B03P-5325-0100A_02B_M244X_Series_Streaming_Tape_Drive_CE_Manual_May89.pdf They weigh around 200 pounds so definitely something you want to find within driving distance instead of shipping. They are manual loading, which is a plus to me as automatic loaders just have more things to fail. Here is an example of some that were listed on eBay for a while and went unsold possibly within driving distance of you: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191640198181?&orig_cvip=true I wouldn't want to pay the $310 that was asked for in that listing. I got one for free in a rack with some other Sun gear (which I later gave away for free) and a couple others that were $100 or less for local pickup. -Glen From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Aug 21 19:11:37 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cheap board guy Message-ID: <20150822001137.971FB18C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I lucked out. One of the dead ones had a broken trace on the bottom, and > cracked corner of the socket for one of the big square chips. So does that one work now? > The second one started working after I simply re-seated the two square > chips around their sockets. Yeah, that happens a lot. I got an 11/23 from him, it didn't work at first, I re-seated the CPU and MM chips, and now it seems to be fine. Excellent news, though! > Well, now both my 11/23 and 11/73 CPUs work with the MSV11-DB cards. Right, those are Q18. > a Clearpoint(?) Q22 memory card Camminton makes 2MB dual cards (CMV-504, although you can upgrade partially populated ones, which have a different number - 254, 500, 250); alas, the last one on eBay just sold, although there may be some out there from dealers like Continental). National Semi makes 1MB dual cards (NS23C - well, the manual says they are only 256KB, but they can be upgraded to 1MB with 256Kx1 chips, and a couple of simple etch cuts). Noel From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 21 19:30:26 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:30:26 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> Message-ID: <55D7C2A2.4020904@sydex.com> On 08/21/2015 05:09 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > I wouldn't want to pay the $310 that was asked for in that listing. > I got one for free in a rack with some other Sun gear (which I later > gave away for free) and a couple others that were $100 or less for > local pickup. Ditto for the Fuji. Good solid construction. Mine came from a fellow who collected a bunch of Sun gear and the drive was marked as "Does not power up". Brand-spanking new--complete with factory QA papers. It was marked as being set for 120VAC, but a tiny bit of inspection turned up the fact that it was really jumpered for 240V. Change a couple of jumpers and bingo. Mine resides in a 6' HP Storage Array rack--those anti-tip slide-outs have saved me a couple of times. The Fuji, like a lot of drives from that era, handle only 1600 and 6250 densities, so if you need 800 or 3200, you'll be out of luck. I've also got a couple of Qualstar open-reel units and well as an Overland streamer. I still like the Fuji best. My doctor tells me that I have a minor hernia--probably gotten when I took that drive in the rack and moved it up a short flight of stairs... --Chuck From bpettitx at comcast.net Fri Aug 21 19:33:55 2015 From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:33:55 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 29B Message-ID: <021B7FDCA02A4F7B9A3A0BC11793C83D@RosemarysPC> I have a small batch of Data I/O EPROM burners. Trying to test them out and ran into a nightmare. They require a pin family and size parameter. But in none of the documentation is there any mention of what these values are. There are some generic pinouts, which are almost useless because Data I/O changed the definition of several pins. Then the manual says to get your part's timing chart and compare them to 409 pages of timing charts to find the family type! Nothing is mentioned anywhere on how to calculate size parameter. There should be a chart or document somewhere that gives the parameters by model numbers like 2516, 2764, etc. Anyone know of a document like this? Anyone have experience with the model 29A&B, Model 19, Model 100 gang programmer, etc. At this point, without better data, these 11 -12 deveces are heading for the scrap pile. This is the poorest documentation I've ever seen on a piece of test equipment. Billy Pettit From wulfman at wulfman.com Fri Aug 21 19:45:55 2015 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:45:55 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 29B In-Reply-To: <021B7FDCA02A4F7B9A3A0BC11793C83D@RosemarysPC> References: <021B7FDCA02A4F7B9A3A0BC11793C83D@RosemarysPC> Message-ID: <55D7C643.9000402@wulfman.com> i got a few of them and have the data somewhere i will try to dig it up and send u off list On 8/21/2015 5:33 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > I have a small batch of Data I/O EPROM burners. Trying to test them out and ran into a nightmare. They require a pin family and size parameter. But in none of the documentation is there any mention of what these values are. There are some generic pinouts, which are almost useless because Data I/O changed the definition of several pins. > > Then the manual says to get your part's timing chart and compare them to 409 pages of timing charts to find the family type! Nothing is mentioned anywhere on how to calculate size parameter. > > There should be a chart or document somewhere that gives the parameters by model numbers like 2516, 2764, etc. > > Anyone know of a document like this? > > Anyone have experience with the model 29A&B, Model 19, Model 100 gang programmer, etc. > > At this point, without better data, these 11 -12 deveces are heading for the scrap pile. This is the poorest documentation I've ever seen on a piece of test equipment. > > Billy Pettit > > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Fri Aug 21 19:46:12 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 01:46:12 +0100 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> Message-ID: Ali, I recently bought a Qualstar 1052 from Nico de Jong, which may fit the bill if you're happy with 1600 and 3200bpi. I believe he has another available. http://www.farumdata.dk/lagersalg.html Regards, -Tom On 22 August 2015 at 00:10, Ali wrote: > Hello All, > > Recently I came across a complete Pertec interface (card, manual, software, > and, cables) thanks to list-member Shaun. Of course what is the point of > having an interface if you have nothing to interface it to! > > So I've been looking at, and learning a bit, about 1/2" tape drives. I've > also looked into acquiring one. But before going down this path I wanted to > see what pitfalls, warning signs, etc. I should be on the lookout for. I am > looking for a unit mostly to experience the tech and to play around with. I > do not plan on recovering data from any particular system or format. > However, it would be nice if I could setup a system that actually worked > for > backups of say an IBM AT for demonstration purposes. > > Having read some old InfoWorld and PC Mag articles I can see there were a > number of tape drive manufacturers well into the early 90s. Based on the > reviews the Cipher and Qualstar units seem to be well suited for my > purposes. Any other brand/models I should keep an eye out for. I know IBM > also had some 1/2" 9 track tape drives (9437 and 9438) but neither was a > Pertec interface from what I have gleaned. The 9347 used a proprietary > interface and the 9348 used HVD SCSI which is atypical. There was > apparently > a 9348-012 model which used narrow SCSI so should interface with a standard > Adaptec card. However, I have not been able to determine if it used > standard > SCSI commands and could be accessed say with a tape backup program under > Windows 9x/NT or DOS. > > Of course the biggest problem is finding one locally in the LA area. > Unfortunately my only resource is eBay and prices there are definitely not > hobbyist friendly (not to mention shipping). If anyone has a line on a > working drive in the LA area (to save on S&H and avoid the dangers of > shipping) or a reasonably priced one elsewhere I'd appreciate it. TIA for > any help. > > From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Fri Aug 21 19:50:19 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 01:50:19 +0100 Subject: ISA Pertec controllers available In-Reply-To: <55C51A5D.3050705@microfilm.kscoxmail.com> References: <01744D42DABB47619D2400CAA6FACBFB@NOTEBOOK> <55C51A5D.3050705@microfilm.kscoxmail.com> Message-ID: Shaun, I see in another thread that you've found the drivers. I'm still interested in buying a controller if you've still got one. Regards, -Tom On 7 August 2015 at 21:51, Shaun Halstead wrote: > > I have two Computer Logics PCTD-III Pertec 8-bit ISA interface boards > available. I have no > software or docs to go with them, though I should have at least one cable > set. From what I can > gather from past discussions of these cards (h/t Chuck G.), they require > driver-supplied firmware. > They've been on the shelf the entire 19 years I've been with my company. > Cards are offered as-is, > $20 + shipping for the pair. Shipping via USPS or FedEx, your choice. > > --Shaun > > From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Aug 21 20:44:10 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:44:10 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> Message-ID: <013a01d0dc7c$0b855fd0$22901f70$@net> > Ali, > > I recently bought a Qualstar 1052 from Nico de Jong, which may fit the > bill if you're happy with 1600 and 3200bpi. I believe he has another > available. > http://www.farumdata.dk/lagersalg.html Tom, Thanks for the heads up. I have dealt with Nico, and while a real nice guy, I doubt we could work out the shipping across the pond to make it worthwhile for either of us! :) -Ali From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 21 20:46:11 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:46:11 -0500 Subject: Update on SA-800 Problem In-Reply-To: <1FED23EE-E8F0-4A65-B2AD-B7EC5BDD0370@comcast.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> <201508212003.QAA22712@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1FED23EE-E8F0-4A65-B2AD-B7EC5BDD0370@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55D7D463.9090903@charter.net> Well, the Altos ACS-8000-2 power supply is all back together and working again, in reasonable health. And, as I posted a few days back, I swapped out the bearings. Unfortunately, that does not seem to have helped. Now that the problem child is the second drive, though, I was able to put a floppy in, format it, and test it without removing it. When I do that, everything is fine for multiple consecutive tests, which means that the drive electronics, head and so on are fine. The problem does indeed have to be mechanical. I do note that the problems do tend to occur more on the inner tracks, so it is possible that there is wear on the positioner lead screw, I suppose. Now that this drive is the second drive, its electronics are more accessible. So, tomorrow I plan to measure the "wobble" on various tracks during multiple insertions, using a floppy that was only ever written on the good drive (which has never had a problem with floppies inserted later after formatting). I can also try my Siemens FDD 100-8 which has been reliable forever. (Eventually I'll get back to that spare SA-801 that took out the power supply in the first place to see where the problem is. If it is in its electronics, then I might simply meld the two drives into one.) One other thing I have noticed is that sometimes after a read problem on the bad drive the FD 1791 floppy controller chip seems to get into a "snit" that even a reset does not cure - I have to cycle power to get it back. Now that I have a reliable drive as the first drive, it is clear that this is not a reinsertion / wobble issue. So, I will have to check the reset line going to that and the PIO chip that supports it to see if there is a problem on the board. I also have some spare FD 1791's I can try, that are of a slightly later revision, to see if the problem is related to that specific chip. JRJ From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 21 20:45:12 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:45:12 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 29B In-Reply-To: <021B7FDCA02A4F7B9A3A0BC11793C83D@RosemarysPC> References: <021B7FDCA02A4F7B9A3A0BC11793C83D@RosemarysPC> Message-ID: <55D7D428.3040503@bitsavers.org> On 8/21/15 5:33 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > This is the poorest documentation I've ever seen on a piece of test equipment. > The problem is they went through at least three generations of programming packs (individual device, unipak, unipack2/2A/2B) There is a text file (unipak2.txt) that I sent you that lists about 1000 devices along with the family and pin adapter. I gave up on anything earlier than the 2900/3900/Unisite a LONG time ago. I'd just offer them to people in the bay area and not even bother testing them. I should have the docs on bitsavers for them. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Aug 21 20:52:41 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 21:52:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D7A40A.4060108@snarc.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> <201508212003.QAA22712@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7A40A.4060108@snarc.net> Message-ID: <201508220152.VAA03209@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>> That's why I speak out against attempts to [...] >> Please don't misquote me. [...] > I'm not the person who wrote what you quoted. No, you're not. I wrote it. You quoted it, with line breaks removed. > Idiot. Anyone who is confused here is invited to go back and consult Message-ID: <55D7694F.6040007 at snarc.net> - and the other list mail including my "That's why I speak out against attempts to..." text. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Fri Aug 21 20:59:42 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 02:59:42 +0100 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <013a01d0dc7c$0b855fd0$22901f70$@net> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <013a01d0dc7c$0b855fd0$22901f70$@net> Message-ID: Ali, Whoops! I must've skipped over the part about shipping. -Tom On 22 August 2015 at 02:44, Ali wrote: > > Ali, > > > > I recently bought a Qualstar 1052 from Nico de Jong, which may fit the > > bill if you're happy with 1600 and 3200bpi. I believe he has another > > available. > > http://www.farumdata.dk/lagersalg.html > > Tom, > > Thanks for the heads up. I have dealt with Nico, and while a real nice > guy, I doubt we could work out the shipping across the pond to make it > worthwhile for either of us! :) > > -Ali > > From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Aug 21 21:22:48 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 21:22:48 -0500 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> Message-ID: <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> On 08/21/2015 06:10 PM, Ali wrote: > Hello All, > > Recently I came across a complete Pertec interface (card, manual, software, > and, cables) thanks to list-member Shaun. Of course what is the point of > having an interface if you have nothing to interface it to! > > So I've been looking at, and learning a bit, about 1/2" tape drives. Enough Pertec drives were made so that manuals should be no problem. Some other makes were made in fairly small numbers so manuals may be a problem. You have to decide, spring-arm, vacuum-column or streaming, and then most dual density drives were either 800/1600 or 1600/6250. Few would do all three. (Also there's 3200 BPI, identical to 1600 PE mode, just double the clock, but it is a fairly rare setup.) We had a Digi-Data streaming tape drive that was a complete disaster. The read data chips burned out about one a month. I still have 2 CDC "Keystone" (92185) drives here that work. They are well-built and almost elegant. Oh, with "Pertec interface" there are TWO FLAVORS! The old system was Pertec unformatted, with 3 cables. Write, Read and Control. Later was Pertec formatted, with two cables. They are totally incompatible, so make sure you get drives compatible with your interface. Jon From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 21 22:05:18 2015 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:05:18 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 29B In-Reply-To: <55D7D428.3040503@bitsavers.org> References: <021B7FDCA02A4F7B9A3A0BC11793C83D@RosemarysPC>, <55D7D428.3040503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Something must be wrong here, the 29B/unipak is very easy to use. I was the rep in Houston (USDATA) and I must have sold 50 of these. It went for $4500 with the unipak. A typical demo we would plug in a dumb terminal, its a lot more effective demo to select a device than from the keypad. One of these I sold to Gateway Technologies, Rod Canion. The demo and sale went down at a pancake house on the Southwest Freeway. They used it to suck the BIOS out of the IBM PC, and form Compaq Computer. Randy > Subject: Re: Data I/O 29B > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: aek at bitsavers.org > Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:45:12 -0700 > > > > On 8/21/15 5:33 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > > This is the poorest documentation I've ever seen on a piece of test equipment. > > > > The problem is they went through at least three generations of > programming packs (individual device, unipak, unipack2/2A/2B) > > There is a text file (unipak2.txt) that I sent you that lists > about 1000 devices along with the family and pin adapter. > > I gave up on anything earlier than the 2900/3900/Unisite a LONG > time ago. I'd just offer them to people in the bay area and not > even bother testing them. I should have the docs on bitsavers for > them. > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 21 22:41:50 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:41:50 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55D7EF7E.5000607@bitsavers.org> On 8/21/15 7:22 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Enough Pertec drives were made so that manuals should be no problem. Some other makes were made in fairly small numbers so manuals may be a problem. > One of the things I've specialized in is collecting tape drive manuals on bitsavers. There are docs there for most drives. In the bad old days, you would buy a formatter box that connected to the read/write/control cable interface. Kennedy, Pertec, and most other vendors made them. Or you could get unformatted controlers from Emulex, Western Peripherals and others that could take the three cable interface and connect it directly to your Nova, PDP-11 or Interdata. Eventually, the dual 50 pin formatted interface took over as the formatters got small enough that they could be integrated into the drives. The other big difference in later drives is if they were 'streaming' or not. What that means is the tape is expected to roll continously (stream) as opposed to being able to quickly stop between records. Being able to do this is the reason older drives have tension arms or vacuum columns. Doing away with needing to stop quickly makes the drives cheaper to build. The low-cost drives (like the Qualstar 105x) just have two reel motors and a tachometer on a capstan to sense tape speed. The motors also don't have much torque compared to the servo motors of the old drives, which can be an issue if there is much shed coming off the tape. The 105x series also can only really handle 1600bpi tapes. They cheat for 3200bpi by slowing the tape down to half-speed. HP 88780s are nice front loading drives that can be found with 800/1600/6250 and Pertec or SCSI interfaces. Another one I've used is the Kennedy 9610, the M4/Storagetek 9614, and the later model Qualstars. Each has their quirks especially when dealing with poor condition tape. I have a couple of Fuji 24xx series, but never made any use of them since I don't normally use anything that just has a formatted Pertec interface. It all depends on how much use you are really going to make of it, and the condition of your media. A low-end Qualstar would be OK for light duty use. From wulfman at wulfman.com Fri Aug 21 22:45:15 2015 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:45:15 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 29B In-Reply-To: References: <021B7FDCA02A4F7B9A3A0BC11793C83D@RosemarysPC>, <55D7D428.3040503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55D7F04B.6010000@wulfman.com> I have a modified dos program that talks to the data i/o its the one that they sold with the unit but only ran on a 286 or lower system the modified one i have works in windows 7 in a dos box not tried it on a win8 or 10 system but i dont see why it would not work if your interested i can send it to you On 8/21/2015 8:05 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > Something must be wrong here, the 29B/unipak is very easy to use. > I was the rep in Houston (USDATA) and I must have sold 50 of these. It went for $4500 with the unipak. > > A typical demo we would plug in a dumb terminal, its a lot more effective demo to select a device than from the keypad. > > One of these I sold to Gateway Technologies, Rod Canion. The demo and sale went down at a pancake house on the Southwest Freeway. > They used it to suck the BIOS out of the IBM PC, and form Compaq Computer. > > Randy > >> Subject: Re: Data I/O 29B >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> From: aek at bitsavers.org >> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:45:12 -0700 >> >> >> >> On 8/21/15 5:33 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: >>> This is the poorest documentation I've ever seen on a piece of test equipment. >>> >> The problem is they went through at least three generations of >> programming packs (individual device, unipak, unipack2/2A/2B) >> >> There is a text file (unipak2.txt) that I sent you that lists >> about 1000 devices along with the family and pin adapter. >> >> I gave up on anything earlier than the 2900/3900/Unisite a LONG >> time ago. I'd just offer them to people in the bay area and not >> even bother testing them. I should have the docs on bitsavers for >> them. >> > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 23:50:55 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 21:50:55 -0700 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chuck, I looked at the pin 2 signal and resulting drive behavior. It doesn't properly auto-switch between densities as it should. It does switch it for reading, but not for writing. Below is the full story. There is one jumper that controls DD/HD switching mode. In the auto position, I can read both HD and DD formats (I use the right diskettes for either format). You can see the computer on pin 2 (density select) trying both positions, settling on the right one (high for HD, low for DD), and reading the disc correctly. That's great. But when writing, although pin 2 goes to the right level, the floppy seems to ignore it. It will always write at DD, and refuse to write in HD (no signal at the head). Interestingly, in the fixed density position (should be HD only), it WILL write at 1.2M HD! The write signal does appears at the head. Unfortunately in this setting it will NOT switch the reading, get stuck reading only DD and fail on HD. So I can either have the reading HD or the writing HD, but not the two at the same time. That's why a regular format fails. The density switching logic seems to have a problem. Rather than track down which IC or transistor failed on the board it might be much simpler to get another 5.25 floppy. In the meantime my understanding of these simple critters has improved a lot. Marc >At high density, have you taken a good look at pin 2 of the floppy >interface? Have you checked to see if pin 2 is configured (via jumpers) >as "density select"? >--Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 22 00:08:31 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 22:08:31 -0700 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D803CF.3040106@sydex.com> On 08/21/2015 09:50 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > Chuck, I looked at the pin 2 signal and resulting drive behavior. It > doesn't properly auto-switch between densities as it should. It does > switch it for reading, but not for writing. Below is the full story. On 5.25" HD drives, pin 2 is generally a drive *input*. That is, the host telegraphs what's needed, not the drive. This is different from the 3.5" world, where HD and 2D floppies have a mechanical means (density aperture in the jacked) to indicate what's needed. Some drives/systems can work together so that the drive determines which media type is inserted and notifies the host. But not in the 5.25" word. --Chuck From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Aug 22 00:20:40 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 22:20:40 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <55D7EF7E.5000607@bitsavers.org> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> <55D7EF7E.5000607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <015901d0dc9a$4ad10130$e0730390$@net> > The other big difference in later drives is if they were 'streaming' or > not. What that means is the tape is expected to roll continously > (stream) as opposed to being able to quickly stop between records. Al, Most of the units out there, short of the floor standing ones and the original IBM drives, are streamers, correct? > The motors also don't have much torque compared to the servo > motors of the old drives, which can be an issue if there is much shed > coming off the tape. Does this mainly apply to older tape? If I was using new tape would this be something of a concern? > HP 88780s are nice front loading drives that can be found with > 800/1600/6250 and Pertec or SCSI interfaces. Another one I've used is > the Kennedy 9610, the M4/Storagetek 9614, and the later model > Qualstars. I've seen the 88780s in action and they are nicely built units. The Kennedy 9610 also seems very nice but the two on eBay are priced way out of my reach/hobbyist range. >Each has their quirks especially when dealing with poor > condition tape. I have a couple of Fuji 24xx series, but never made any > use of them since I don't normally use anything that just has a > formatted Pertec interface. This answers my question indirectly. > It all depends on how much use you are really going to make of it, and > the condition of your media. A low-end Qualstar would be OK for light > duty use. > Thanks for the recs and the info. As I said originally this would be more for me to play with than to do any mission critical work. I would be using it on a PC system as a demonstration for the kids and maybe even for routine backup just because I can. Having said that I would like a solid unit that would last and req. minimal maintenance. I am okay with a rack system or a tabletop. The rack obviously would have the more retro feel but the tabletops are easier to manage. Ultimately I think it will come down to what I can find and at what price point. -Ali From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Aug 22 00:20:40 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 22:20:40 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> Jon, > Enough Pertec drives were made so that manuals should be no problem. > Some other makes were made in fairly small numbers so manuals may be a > problem. I should have been more clear - the manuals were for the ISA interface card and the accompanying SW not for an particular drive. > You have to decide, spring-arm, vacuum-column or streaming, and then > most dual density drives were either 800/1600 or 1600/6250. Few would > do all three. (Also there's 3200 BPI, identical to 1600 PE mode, just > double the clock, but it is a fairly rare setup.) Thanks for the info. I had seen (on YouTube) videos of the vacuum-column and streaming drives. The spring arm I am not familiar with. Is it just an arm that produces tension on the tape keeping it in place? > Oh, with "Pertec interface" there are TWO FLAVORS! The old system was > Pertec unformatted, with 3 cables. > Write, Read and Control. Later was Pertec formatted, with two cables. > They are totally incompatible, so make sure you get drives compatible > with your interface. Thanks again. I was not aware of this. My card has the two 50 pin edge connectors coming from one cable that terminates in a D-Sub so I would say this is the Pertec formatted interface. I could also go SCSI as long as the tape drives would follow "standard" SCSI commands but those type of drives seem even more expensive. -Ali From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 22 00:20:34 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 22:20:34 -0700 Subject: Update on SA-800 Problem In-Reply-To: <55D7D463.9090903@charter.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> <201508212003.QAA22712@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1FED23EE-E8F0-4A65-B2AD-B7EC5BDD0370@comcast.net> <55D7D463.9090903@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D806A2.1090501@sydex.com> On 08/21/2015 06:46 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > One other thing I have noticed is that sometimes after a read problem > on the bad drive the FD 1791 floppy controller chip seems to get into > a "snit" that even a reset does not cure - I have to cycle power to > get it back. Now that I have a reliable drive as the first drive, it > is clear that this is not a reinsertion / wobble issue. So, I will > have to check the reset line going to that and the PIO chip that > supports it to see if there is a problem on the board. I also have > some spare FD 1791's I can try, that are of a slightly later > revision, to see if the problem is related to that specific chip. Try a later revision of the 91. We had miserable problems with the WD1781 (the FDC that no one has heard of) and eventually had to incorporate an external register bit into the design to enable software to do a "hard" reset of the 1781. It could occasionally just go deaf and dumb; WDC knew about the problem and that was the only solution offered. --Chuck From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Aug 22 00:20:40 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 22:20:40 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <55D7C2A2.4020904@sydex.com> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7C2A2.4020904@sydex.com> Message-ID: <015b01d0dc9a$4b610c30$e2232490$@net> > The Fuji, like a lot of drives from that era, handle only 1600 and 6250 > densities, so if you need 800 or 3200, you'll be out of luck. I've > also got a couple of Qualstar open-reel units and well as an Overland > streamer. I still like the Fuji best. Chuck, As I am more interested in working with the tech and not reading a particular format the lack of support for other formats is okay. I would install mine in an IBM rack I have w/ some IBM 7532s and a bank leased line modems in it. I have to wait and see if I can find a good price on them. I've seen the Qualstar and Overland in the back of PC Magazine ads. They just don't seem as well built. When I look at them I get the feeling they were built for a finite number of years - enough for a company to migrate their data and that was it. I could be wrong but they seem to be all plastic units vs. the rugged construction on the HPs, or the Fujitsus. Heck even the Cipher desktops and the IBM 9438 look more solid than those guys. From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Aug 22 00:20:40 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 22:20:40 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> Message-ID: <015c01d0dc9a$4e390b60$eaab2220$@net> > I have had good results with Fujitsu M2444AC Pertec interface 9-track > 1/2-inch tape drives > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/B03P-5325- > 0100A_02B_M244X_Series_Streaming_Tape_Drive_CE_Manual_May89.pdf > Glen, Thanks for the recommendation. I had actually seen the drives you linked to on eBay. The seller is about 1 hour drive away from me each way (w/out traffic) so definitely doable by LA standards. The usually take best offers. At times they are more reasonable then others but I don't think I will get anywhere close to $100 w/ them. I will however, keep an eye on it. The manual load vs. automatic load is not a big issue and may actually be cool in a retro way. Surprisingly these are the cheapest drives they sell. The Ciphers they have are listed for $600 - $900. One question: from the pictures it was not clear if this used the three or two connector Pertec interface? I am guessing two but better to ask than end up with a 200lb paper weight! -Ali From jws at jwsss.com Sat Aug 22 00:24:45 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 22:24:45 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 29B In-Reply-To: References: <021B7FDCA02A4F7B9A3A0BC11793C83D@RosemarysPC> <55D7D428.3040503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55D8079D.1010900@jwsss.com> At microdata we had a support contract with Data I/O and every set of roms for the base unit and the Unipak came with a new poster up to date with the latest parts from the manufacturers. So you don't need to just get a poster or table or list, but you also need to match it to the firmware set in your 29xx. I grabbed a stack of the posters at one time which were old and have them somewhere. I'm not sure what would have happened to them at heavy user sites, but I know such as the local Avnet, and Hamilton offices which we mooched programming time from after I left Microdata had quite a few. I don't know if they got as many updates as Microdata did. Randy, did you know of such a program? The program I'm talking with may have gone around rep firms, as Microdata was using the crap out of a lot of different roms, and then eproms. Of course if you blew up a rom in the Data I/O the manufacturers also warrantied them back pretty much w/o any question, or someone came out to find out what you were doing wrong. Thanks Jim On 8/21/2015 8:05 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > Something must be wrong here, the 29B/unipak is very easy to use. > I was the rep in Houston (USDATA) and I must have sold 50 of these. It went for $4500 with the unipak. > > A typical demo we would plug in a dumb terminal, its a lot more effective demo to select a device than from the keypad. > > One of these I sold to Gateway Technologies, Rod Canion. The demo and sale went down at a pancake house on the Southwest Freeway. > They used it to suck the BIOS out of the IBM PC, and form Compaq Computer. > > Randy > >> Subject: Re: Data I/O 29B >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> From: aek at bitsavers.org >> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:45:12 -0700 >> >> >> >> On 8/21/15 5:33 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: >>> This is the poorest documentation I've ever seen on a piece of test equipment. >>> >> The problem is they went through at least three generations of >> programming packs (individual device, unipak, unipack2/2A/2B) >> >> There is a text file (unipak2.txt) that I sent you that lists >> about 1000 devices along with the family and pin adapter. >> >> I gave up on anything earlier than the 2900/3900/Unisite a LONG >> time ago. I'd just offer them to people in the bay area and not >> even bother testing them. I should have the docs on bitsavers for >> them. >> > > > From evan at snarc.net Sat Aug 22 00:29:59 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 01:29:59 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <201508220152.VAA03209@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> <201508212003.QAA22712@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7A40A.4060108@snarc.net> <201508220152.VAA03209@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <55D808D7.9070300@snarc.net> >>>>> That's why I speak out against attempts to [...] >>> Please don't misquote me. [...] >> I'm not the person who wrote what you quoted. > No, you're not. I wrote it. You quoted it, with line breaks removed. > >> Idiot. > Anyone who is confused here is invited to go back and consult > Message-ID: <55D7694F.6040007 at snarc.net> - and the other list mail > including my "That's why I speak out against attempts to..." text. You're nuts. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 22 01:19:36 2015 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 23:19:36 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 29B In-Reply-To: <55D8079D.1010900@jwsss.com> References: <021B7FDCA02A4F7B9A3A0BC11793C83D@RosemarysPC>, <55D7D428.3040503@bitsavers.org>, , <55D8079D.1010900@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, Data I/O flew down to Texas every month, for sales meetings, we were doing a huge business for them. We would make joint calls and I remember that our field stuff was always updated as part of the trip. All our demo units had these cool small suitcase, foam lined cases. The FAE would go thru our stuff and make sure we were current. There were always new chips to support for the Unipak, and they wanted to make sure that as we went on calls we never got stuck, as we were doing so well with the product. My rep firm, USDATA was Texas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana for the product. I never recall us going to visit Hamilton or Avenet, (AKA Hamilton Havenot!) I think they took those sales direct. We were calling on TI, NASA, Datapoint, and the petrochem guys. Jim, Did you know these guys? I recall Dennis (sales mgr) and Marty (FAE)? We had excellent support from these people as we were also users. Our product line ('78-'82 timeframe) was all the top computer graphics, and we constantly had to update PROMS, EPROMS for the rest of our stuff: Jupiter and AED graphics terminals; Printronix and Trilog color printers; Compucolor 8080 color computers; Matrix film recorders; Grinell image processor engine; I remember after a day of Houston sales calls with them, I am driving them back to the airport. We did not have lunch that day, so I stop at a tamale truck and hand these guys a sack of tamales. Front seat is loaded with demo equip, so they are sitting in the back. "Ever had a tamale?" I ask. "These are great!" I look in the rear view, and they are eating them, corn husks and all... Back to Redmond, WA for these guys. Now that is sales support! Randy > Subject: Re: Data I/O 29B > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: jws at jwsss.com > Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 22:24:45 -0700 > > At microdata we had a support contract with Data I/O and every set of > roms for the base unit and the Unipak came with a new poster up to date > with the latest parts from the manufacturers. > > So you don't need to just get a poster or table or list, but you also > need to match it to the firmware set in your 29xx. > > I grabbed a stack of the posters at one time which were old and have > them somewhere. I'm not sure what would have happened to them at heavy > user sites, but I know such as the local Avnet, and Hamilton offices > which we mooched programming time from after I left Microdata had quite > a few. I don't know if they got as many updates as Microdata did. > > Randy, did you know of such a program? The program I'm talking with may > have gone around rep firms, as Microdata was using the crap out of a lot > of different roms, and then eproms. Of course if you blew up a rom in > the Data I/O the manufacturers also warrantied them back pretty much w/o > any question, or someone came out to find out what you were doing wrong. > > Thanks > Jim > > On 8/21/2015 8:05 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > Something must be wrong here, the 29B/unipak is very easy to use. > > I was the rep in Houston (USDATA) and I must have sold 50 of these. It went for $4500 with the unipak. > > > > A typical demo we would plug in a dumb terminal, its a lot more effective demo to select a device than from the keypad. > > > > One of these I sold to Gateway Technologies, Rod Canion. The demo and sale went down at a pancake house on the Southwest Freeway. > > They used it to suck the BIOS out of the IBM PC, and form Compaq Computer. > > > > Randy > > > >> Subject: Re: Data I/O 29B > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> From: aek at bitsavers.org > >> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:45:12 -0700 > >> > >> > >> > >> On 8/21/15 5:33 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > >>> This is the poorest documentation I've ever seen on a piece of test equipment. > >>> > >> The problem is they went through at least three generations of > >> programming packs (individual device, unipak, unipack2/2A/2B) > >> > >> There is a text file (unipak2.txt) that I sent you that lists > >> about 1000 devices along with the family and pin adapter. > >> > >> I gave up on anything earlier than the 2900/3900/Unisite a LONG > >> time ago. I'd just offer them to people in the bay area and not > >> even bother testing them. I should have the docs on bitsavers for > >> them. > >> > > > > > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 01:44:38 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 23:44:38 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <015c01d0dc9a$4e390b60$eaab2220$@net> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <015c01d0dc9a$4e390b60$eaab2220$@net> Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2015 10:21 PM, "Ali" wrote: > > One question: from the pictures it was not clear if this used the three or two connector Pertec interface? I am guessing two but better to ask than end up with a 200lb paper weight! > > -Ali A Fujitsu M2444AC should have two 50-pin connectors for a formatted Pertec interface. The 'C' suffix of that model number means that it is cached. The manual probably explains the details of how that works. I think it is basically a read ahead buffer during read options so if the host can't read data fast enough to keep up with the tape movement the drive can keep moving and reading into the cache until it fills up. That can eliminate a lot of back and forth tape repositioning with slow hosts. I had some Qualstar 1052 tabletop drives which were not cached. When used with a PCTD-16 ISA bus interface controller in a PC they weren't too bad since the PCTD-16 has its own on board buffer in the 256KB - 1024KB range. When used with a Q-bus Pertec interface in a PDP-11 they were a lot slower since neither the controller nor the drive had any real buffer space to help keep the tape moving. Much slower than the same system with the cached M2444AC instead. From scaron at umich.edu Fri Aug 21 09:56:51 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 10:56:51 -0400 Subject: maybe OT: Powerbook 5300 OS upgrade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, let me be more clear; if the machine already boots, you might be able to mount the installation CD-ROM using an Appletalk share over Localtalk. You can't actually net-boot the Powerbook from the Localtalk network. Best, Sean On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > Hi Joe, > > System 8 and subsequent were only available on CD-ROM. I think newest you > can get on floppies is 7.5.3 or 7.5.5. You should be able to do the > installation no problem with an external [Apple] SCSI CD-ROM. Might also > work from a Localtalk share, if you have another Mac available? I don't > know if I've ever tried that. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 10:45 AM, Joe Giliberti > wrote: > >> Greetings! >> >> I know that many of my posts to this list tend to be on the fringes of >> what >> is normally discussed here. I apologize in advance if this is too new for >> the group. >> >> I am trying to get my Powerbook 5300 up and running as a usable word >> processor (with portable printer) for school and for email. It is >> currently >> running System 7.5.2. The machine is capable of supporting MacOS 9.1, but >> my goal is 8.6. I see them talking on lowendmac that upgrading the OS >> makes >> the machine more solid, but it doesn't explain how to do it. The machine >> only has a floppy drive and no networking. Were there any system 8.6 >> install floppies? I can't think of another way to get it on there. >> >> TIA >> Joe >> > > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Aug 21 10:06:10 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:06:10 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> Message-ID: Perhaps, but the eBay vendor also stole the manual from HP in the first place, as well as the profit generated in selling the copy. I don't think they have a lot of moral high ground ... Best, Sean On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Years ago I needed a HP service manual for a plotter I was trying to >> repair that I owned. HP of course wouldn't let me have it, so I had to buy >> a PDF copy from someone on eBay. I ended up removing the password and >> posting it on my website. >> > > That's called "stealing". > > The more of it turned free, the better. >> > > True, but you can't just take the law into your own hands. > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Aug 21 13:49:42 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 14:49:42 -0400 Subject: maybe OT: Powerbook 5300 OS upgrade In-Reply-To: References: <124F4A50-0050-4257-863F-D48B3E27044C@aracnet.com> Message-ID: Joe, that's a good offer, you should take it :O Best, Sean On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Yesterday I sent a power book 5300 to recycling. > The display hinge was quite broken, it was given to me a while ago and I > didn't see accomplishing anything with it. > > What's still kicking around here is: > - the funky special HDI30-to-SCSI-DB25 adapter to get from the > 5300 to normal SCSI > - SCSI DB-25 to SCSI 50 cable > - SCSI CDROM drive in case w power supply > > Also still have: > - the 5300 power adapter/charger: Model No. M3037(APS-76) > > I think the following also came with it (pile of stuff came jumbled > together): > > - Global Village/teleport 56 fax/modem model A8245 (mini-DIN-8 > connector) > > - PowerPrint adapter: mini-DIN-8 to Centronics parallel > - PowerPrint software on floppies > > - MS office and MS word on about 30 floppies > > Might be some other software as well. > > Any or all is free for shipping if you like. > Location is Vancouver BC Canada. > Might be able to ship from the Washington border if you're patient. > > I plugged the bare CD-ROM drive in (i.e. no SCSI bus connection). > Powers up, door opens and closes, LED flashes, spins with a random disk > inserted but doesn't seem to come ready - not sure what one would expect > with no host on the bus. > > > > On 2015-Aug-21, at 8:30 AM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > > > I guess I'll be trolling ebay for a bit for a drive. Thanks Guys! > > > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Zane H. Healy > wrote: > > > >> > >>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Joe Giliberti > wrote: > >>> > >>> Greetings! > >>> > >>> I know that many of my posts to this list tend to be on the fringes of > >> what > >>> is normally discussed here. I apologize in advance if this is too new > for > >>> the group. > >>> > >>> I am trying to get my Powerbook 5300 up and running as a usable word > >>> processor (with portable printer) for school and for email. It is > >> currently > >>> running System 7.5.2. The machine is capable of supporting MacOS 9.1, > but > >>> my goal is 8.6. I see them talking on lowendmac that upgrading the OS > >> makes > >>> the machine more solid, but it doesn't explain how to do it. The > machine > >>> only has a floppy drive and no networking. Were there any system 8.6 > >>> install floppies? I can't think of another way to get it on there. > >>> > >>> TIA > >>> Joe > >> > >> If I remember right your limited to CD. Even on my 520c, I was able to > >> attach an external SCSI CD-ROM drive. It was pretty much a requirement. > >> I'd say, definitely get it onto 8.x. > >> > >> I'm not sure how this is on the fringes for the list, as the system is > >> nearly 20 years old. > >> > >> Zane > >> > >> > >> > > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Aug 21 14:00:28 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:00:28 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> <55D7413E.1030908@snarc.net> Message-ID: That's odd, as long as I can remember, Lucent/Avaya distributed the manuals at least for their PBX and key products pretty openly; Nortel tried to keep them more closely held but eventually relented, too. Carrier-grade stuff (i.e. 5ESS and SL-100/DMS-100) was always another story, of course. I don't recall ever having any issues getting needed documentation when bringing my Definity up and that was circa maybe 2008? Of course, the Definity is so easy to figure out, you hardly need a manual ... Definitely need them on the Meridian though :O Best, Sean On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 11:50 AM, wrote: > In this specific case though, as it's an HP manual, if it's one of the ones >> that went with Agilent (now Keysight) then they seem to have an >> enlightened >> attitude and make their old manuals available and also point to a whole >> bunch of other places that do the same. So they may well be OK with >> someone >> making a manual available ... although I don't see any explicit evidence >> that they'd be OK with someone *selling* a PDF of one of their historic >> manuals. >> > > This was a HP plotter at the end of it's service life (not a current > model), and this entire thing happened some 12 years ago :-) But the file > might still be on my broken home page... hmmm > > Hah, yep: > https://users.757.org/~ethan/me_bookshelf/ > > Looks like my notes on it were HP said it's discontinued and wouldn't talk > about the machine at all. Zero. Zilch. 650C was the model. > > I also posted on the same web page all of the Lucent Legend manuals. At > the time Lucent had them all available for download for free from their > ELMO system, but it wasn't picked up by google or the like. BUT, there was > a lot of people charging $100-$200 for the pdf files that they downloaded > from ELMO, telling people it wasn't freely available and for purchase only. > > The only one who gets use of the manuals is someone who owns the hardware, > and the hardware comes with the manuals. *Shrug* > > > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Aug 21 14:51:54 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:51:54 -0400 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> Message-ID: In these times where income inequality in the USA is the worst it's been since the Gilded Age, I think a little bit of perspective is best used when dropping the term "meager income". If you've got pocket money for computer collecting, I don't think you get to make that claim. Best, Sean On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 3:36 PM, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 21 Aug 2015, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > >> That's why I speak out against attempts to paint copyright violation as >>> other things, such as theft: it's an appeal to emotions, trying to equate >>> "thing I want people to oppose" with "very different thing I expect people >>> already consider bad". It's a fundamentally dishonest bit of oratory. >>> >> >> I write for a (meager) living. If someone were to take my work and decide >> for themselves that it should be online for free, then they ARE stealing >> from me. That is reality, not the semantics of case law. >> > > No, they're not stealing from you. Quit taking talking points from the > RIAA. > > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From afahimi at alumni.usc.edu Fri Aug 21 15:50:32 2015 From: afahimi at alumni.usc.edu (Ali Fahimi) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:50:32 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? Message-ID: <011a01d0dc53$0681a3a0$1384eae0$@usc.edu> Hello All, Recently I came across a complete Pertec interface (card, manual, software, and, cables) thanks to list-member Shaun. Of course what is the point of having an interface if you have nothing to interface it to! So I've been looking at, and learning a bit, about 1/2" tape drives. I've also looked into acquiring one. But before going down this path I wanted to see what pitfalls, warning signs, etc. I should be on the lookout for. I am looking for a unit mostly to experience the tech and to play around with. I do not plan on recovering data from any particular system or format. However, it would be nice if I could setup a system that actually worked for backups of say an IBM AT for demonstration purposes. Having read some old InfoWorld and PC Mag articles I can see there were a number of tape drive manufacturers well into the early 90s. Based on the reviews the Cipher and Qualstar units seem to be well suited for my purposes. Any other brand/models I should keep an eye out for. I know IBM also had some 1/2" 9 track tape drives (9437 and 9438) but neither was a Pertec interface from what I have gleaned. The 9347 used a proprietary interface and the 9348 used HVD SCSI which is atypical. There was apparently a 9348-012 model which used narrow SCSI so should interface with a standard Adaptec card. However, I have not been able to determine if it used standard SCSI commands and could be accessed say with a tape backup program under Windows 9x/NT or DOS. Of course the biggest problem is finding one locally in the LA area. Unfortunately my only resource is eBay and prices there are definitely not hobbyist friendly (not to mention shipping). If anyone has a line on a working drive in the LA area (to save on S&H and avoid the dangers of shipping) or a reasonably priced one elsewhere I'd appreciate it. TIA for any help. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Aug 22 05:32:54 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 03:32:54 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> Message-ID: <484598CB-9804-413D-A1C8-458F2B43F48E@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Aug-21, at 10:20 PM, Ali wrote: > Jon, > ... >> You have to decide, spring-arm, vacuum-column or streaming, and then >> most dual density drives were either 800/1600 or 1600/6250. Few would >> do all three. (Also there's 3200 BPI, identical to 1600 PE mode, just >> double the clock, but it is a fairly rare setup.) > > Thanks for the info. I had seen (on YouTube) videos of the vacuum-column and > streaming drives. The spring arm I am not familiar with. Is it just an arm > that produces tension on the tape keeping it in place? A brief conceptual overview: Vacuum-column and spring-arm drives comprise 3 servo systems: - each reel motor is in a closed servo loop with position sensors in its associated vacuum column or spring arm. - the capstan motor, driving the exposed tape between the reels, is in a servo loop with a tape-speed sensor, and externally controlled by commands for forward/reverse and speed selection. The 3 servo systems are electrically independent (in control terms and leaving aside power supplies). The connection between them is the tape. The vacuum-columns or spring-arms serve to implement a length of 'buffer' tape between each reel and the heads and capstan. The point of the buffer area is it is a very small mass of tape so movement of the tape over the heads can be started and stopped (by the capstan) very quickly. That is, it mechanically isolates the tape movement over the heads from the large mass of tape in the reels. Each reel servo acts on its own to simply try to keep the tape in the middle of its vacuum-column or its spring-arm in the center of swing. (It can be fun to play with the tape or arms while the drive is at idle and see how the reel motors respond, although one has to be cautious and delicate about doing so as the reel motors pack quite a whallop; and do so with a dud tape, not something that matters.) When the capstan receives a command signal and starts moving, the tape in between the buffer areas starts moving. The capstan speed servo acts to maintain constant linear tape speed over the heads. The moving tape upsets both vac-cols or spring-arms in the buffer areas in opposite directions, the reel servos now act to correct this upset. For example, when forward motion is called for, the capstan pulls tape out of the supply-side buffer (out of the vac-col or pulling the spring-arm tighter). The sensors in the supply vac-col or spring-arm direct the supply-reel motor to rotate to supply more tape into the buffer area. At the same time of course, tape is sent into the take-up buffer (into the vac-col or releasing tension on the spring-arm) and the take-up sensors and reel motor respond to rotate the take-up reel to pick up tape out of the buffer area. Pardon the elaboration, I just find it a very elegant design. When you see these drives in full-blown action, without knowing, you might think the control system to achieve what they do must be horribly complex, but with the 3 independent servo loops acting in coordination it's actually quite simple. (We'll leave auto-loading out of the discussion). From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sat Aug 22 07:13:30 2015 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 21:43:30 +0930 Subject: (OT?) Copyright and IP Message-ID: <55D8676A.10407@kaput.homeunix.org> Hi List, This relates to the ongoing discussion about vintage computer software copyright. A year or so ago I did some Beta videotape backups for the Australian Computer Society. They're of keynote speeches at the 10th Australian Computer Conference in 1983. One that I'd like to mention is by Tania Amochev from (then) Control Data Corporation, titled Information Services of the Future. In it, things we now call data mining and Google AdSense are discussed, and the potential of data services in general (this is in 1983). One thing that struck me was the contrast between traditional copyright of material items, and how such ideas don't apply very well to non-material information. I was left with the impression that the idea of "Intellectual Property" is in some ways an attempt to force information to be treated like materials, which is an easy way to put a value information, but also allows it to be hoarded. This goes directly against how information behaves, which is to flow freely. This free-flow of information allows more information to be derived or generated, enhancing productivity and overall knowledge. To quote: "Information is diffusive - it leaks. The more it leaks, the more of it there is. Information is aggressive, even imperialistic. It simply breaks out of its unnatural bonds, the bonds of secrecy in which 'thing minded' people try to lock it. So secrecy, property rights, confidentiality, all enshrined in Western thought and law, are not particularly effective restraints on information." This is not a cry to abolish copyright and intellectual property laws, but to highlight some of the inadequacies of the thought process behind these laws when dealing with high speed, global information. Does anyone have any thoughts? If there was a massive shift in the fundamental philosophy of how information should be valued, where would you like that shift to go? For example, is there a way to pay programmers and similar professions by the quality of their work, rather than just the number of lines of code they write. How do you measure the quality of information? I'll see if I can get permission to have the six keynote addresses put online, because they're all fascinating. Cheers, Alexis. P.S., if this is way off topic, my apologies. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 07:24:55 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 07:24:55 -0500 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> Message-ID: <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> On 08/21/2015 05:28 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> So, how does one de-yellow something? I have a VT-100 and some other >> gear that could use that process. > > Google for "Retr0brite". I've never tried the stuff - but is it a permanent fix, or does the yellowing gradually come back? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 07:37:14 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 13:37:14 +0100 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules > Richardson > Sent: 22 August 2015 13:25 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: De-yellowing > > On 08/21/2015 05:28 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > >> So, how does one de-yellow something? I have a VT-100 and some other > >> gear that could use that process. > > > > Google for "Retr0brite". > > I've never tried the stuff - but is it a permanent fix, or does the yellowing > gradually come back? All the techniques discussed so far involve using a "bleach" of some kind and possibly UV light. Some use other materials so you have a gell which makes it easier to apply. >From what I have read yellowing usually/often/always re-occurs.. Dave From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 22 07:48:29 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 07:48:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Aug 2015, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 08/21/2015 05:28 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> So, how does one de-yellow something? I have a VT-100 and some other >>> gear that could use that process. >> >> Google for "Retr0brite". > > I've never tried the stuff - but is it a permanent fix, or does the > yellowing gradually come back? It almost always seems to comes back to some extent. De-yellowing treatments only work on the outermost surface of the plastic, and there are still plenty of free bromides just under the treated surface which will migrate outward. The re-yellowing (which may or may not be much less than the original yellowing) also occurs much faster than the original yellowing. Unless you can somehow eliminate all the free bromides from the plastic, de-yellowing treatments such as Retr0brite are just a temporary cosmetic fix. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 22 07:50:33 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 07:50:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Aug 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: > On Sat, 22 Aug 2015, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On 08/21/2015 05:28 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>>> So, how does one de-yellow something? I have a VT-100 and some other >>>> gear that could use that process. >>> >>> Google for "Retr0brite". >> >> I've never tried the stuff - but is it a permanent fix, or does the >> yellowing gradually come back? > > All the techniques discussed so far involve using a "bleach" of some > kind and possibly UV light. Some use other materials so you have a gell > which makes it easier to apply. > From what I have read yellowing usually/often/always re-occurs.. Hydrogen Peroxide, not bleach. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 08:12:54 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 08:12:54 -0500 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55D87556.4070100@gmail.com> On 08/22/2015 07:48 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Sat, 22 Aug 2015, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On 08/21/2015 05:28 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>>> So, how does one de-yellow something? I have a VT-100 and some other >>>> gear that could use that process. >>> >>> Google for "Retr0brite". >> >> I've never tried the stuff - but is it a permanent fix, or does the >> yellowing gradually come back? > > It almost always seems to comes back to some extent. De-yellowing > treatments only work on the outermost surface of the plastic, and there are > still plenty of free bromides just under the treated surface which will > migrate outward. The re-yellowing (which may or may not be much less than > the original yellowing) also occurs much faster than the original > yellowing. Unless you can somehow eliminate all the free bromides from the > plastic, de-yellowing treatments such as Retr0brite are just a temporary > cosmetic fix. I thought that might be the case, but thought I might be mistaken given how many people seem to rave about how wonderful this stuff is. Within a museum context, where showing original factory condition is probably a desirable thing, have there been any studies to ensure that retrobright (or other treatments) don't cause any damage to the plastics (e.g. making the surface less resistant to scratches, or the plastic more brittle, say)? Personally I quite like the patina of a yellowed machine anyway - being able to see how it sat in a room, or where stickers used to be and such; it's a minor thing, but sometimes it does tell a little bit of a story. Maybe in 20 years if I ever sell any of my collection I might consider it, but for now they may as well stay yellow :) cheers Jules From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 22 08:14:06 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 08:14:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: HP 5480A, or, obscure HP instruments / was Re: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: <55D5E582.5080804@charter.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <936263F3-EBD5-4258-8E34-5444A61619CA@cs.ubc.ca> <7794D73C-6270-489A-85C0-79051F64E251@cs.ubc.ca> <55D5E582.5080804@charter.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 8/20/2015 7:11 AM, tony duell wrote: >> >>> They reuse numbers for what I call "marketing numbers". For example, >>> with a LaserJet 8150dn, the "8150" is a "marketing number" and not the >>> actual HP product number, which was C4267A. As far as I know they've >>> never actually reused a product number. >>> >>> I know that's no consolation when you search for "HP 5480" for that >>> product, and get printers or supplies with that "marketing number" >>> instead. >> >> I get irritated when I search for HP9100 (meaning the first desktop >> scientific calculator thing) and get hits for some modern-ish >> printer/scanner. Admittedly that is a 9100C (the calculators were 9100A >> and 9100B), but... > > At least, under Google and eBay, one can add exclusionary terms: > > hp 9100 -printer -scanner > > Seems to do pretty well under Google. Under eBay I had to add a lot > more exclusions, and ran out of room. With eBay, you can also group them: -(printer,scanner) It only helps a little though and when eBay eliminated wildcard matching awhile back, they also reduced the maximum query length. What I /really/ don't like about eBay's current search system, is how it substitutes keywords internally. If I search for "Compaq", I don't want results for "HP", and likewise if I search for "HP", I don't want results for "Compaq"... From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Aug 22 08:17:02 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 09:17:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Data I/O 29B Message-ID: <20150822131702.6276E18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: wulfman > I have a modified dos program that talks to the data i/o > its the one that they sold with the unit but only ran on a 286 > ... > the modified one i have works in windows 7 in a dos box I seem to recall that I downloaded some software to run my 29B (although I have yet to work with it extensively), and that it did run in a DOS box under Windows 98? Is that the '286' one you're referring to? If so, maybe that won't run in a DOS box under the later versions of Windows? Or maybe I have a different program from the one you're talking about? (Or maybe I somehow downloaded an already-fixed version?) > if your interested i can send it to you Other than running under Windows 7, does it have any other improvements? If so, I might be interested. Whatever the case, if you would like someone to host it for open download, let me know. Noel From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Aug 22 08:31:15 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 15:31:15 +0200 Subject: Data I/O 29B In-Reply-To: <20150822131702.6276E18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150822131702.6276E18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <286b9f8b9c177dac10bb9e0c508a0ae0@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> The software is pl.exe " promlink". On the dataio yahoo group you can find the link and lots of info regarding data io equipment. I use it a lot for programming proms, like the HP 1000 boot proms. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "Noel Chiappa" Verzonden: ?22-?8-?2015 15:17 Aan: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" CC: "jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu" Onderwerp: Re: Data I/O 29B > From: wulfman > I have a modified dos program that talks to the data i/o > its the one that they sold with the unit but only ran on a 286 > ... > the modified one i have works in windows 7 in a dos box I seem to recall that I downloaded some software to run my 29B (although I have yet to work with it extensively), and that it did run in a DOS box under Windows 98? Is that the '286' one you're referring to? If so, maybe that won't run in a DOS box under the later versions of Windows? Or maybe I have a different program from the one you're talking about? (Or maybe I somehow downloaded an already-fixed version?) > if your interested i can send it to you Other than running under Windows 7, does it have any other improvements? If so, I might be interested. Whatever the case, if you would like someone to host it for open download, let me know. Noel From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 22 08:37:15 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 08:37:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55D87556.4070100@gmail.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <55D87556.4070100@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Aug 2015, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 08/22/2015 07:48 AM, Tothwolf wrote: >> On Sat, 22 Aug 2015, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> On 08/21/2015 05:28 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> >>>> Google for "Retr0brite". >>> >>> I've never tried the stuff - but is it a permanent fix, or does the >>> yellowing gradually come back? >> >> It almost always seems to comes back to some extent. De-yellowing >> treatments only work on the outermost surface of the plastic, and there >> are still plenty of free bromides just under the treated surface which >> will migrate outward. The re-yellowing (which may or may not be much >> less than the original yellowing) also occurs much faster than the >> original yellowing. Unless you can somehow eliminate all the free >> bromides from the plastic, de-yellowing treatments such as Retr0brite >> are just a temporary cosmetic fix. > > I thought that might be the case, but thought I might be mistaken given > how many people seem to rave about how wonderful this stuff is. It does give something a nice temporary cosmetic fix, but in most cases it just doesn't last. As little as a year later something can be completely yellow again. It probably has a lot to do with the specific amount of bromide and other stuff in the plastic. > Within a museum context, where showing original factory condition is > probably a desirable thing, have there been any studies to ensure that > retrobright (or other treatments) don't cause any damage to the plastics > (e.g. making the surface less resistant to scratches, or the plastic > more brittle, say)? Long term UV exposure isn't exactly good for plastics, but I can't see lower concentrations of Hydrogen Peroxide doing any damage. Heavy UV exposure tends to make a lot of thermoplastics very brittle. > Personally I quite like the patina of a yellowed machine anyway - being > able to see how it sat in a room, or where stickers used to be and such; > it's a minor thing, but sometimes it does tell a little bit of a story. > Maybe in 20 years if I ever sell any of my collection I might consider > it, but for now they may as well stay yellow :) I had my yellowed TRS-80 Model 100 out yesterday to finally remove its internal NiCd battery (I caught it just in time, there was a tiny amount of discoloration of the solder mask at one end, which is probably the copper trace tarnishing, but the solder mask was still firmly adhered to the copper). It would be nice if the machine weren't yellowed, but the yellowing doesn't stop me from using it. My model 100 has mostly lived in a box since I bought it (keeps the dust out of the keyboard when I'm not tinkering with it) and it has a very even yellowing to the light colored plastic (I don't think it has worsened any since I got it). I just haven't been able to justify the time and the cost of the materials to "retr0brite" it since I know the yellowing would reoccur, even with it stored in a box. Maybe someone will eventually come up with a way to bring those free bromides out to the surface where the Hydrogen Peroxide will take care of them. I wouldn't think it would make much of a difference, but has anyone tried putting a plastic part under vacuum to see if that helps? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 22 08:53:10 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 13:53:10 +0000 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55D87556.4070100@gmail.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> , <55D87556.4070100@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > Within a museum context, where showing original factory condition is > probably a desirable thing, have there been any studies to ensure that > retrobright (or other treatments) don't cause any damage to the plastics > (e.g. making the surface less resistant to scratches, or the plastic more > brittle, say)? As somebody who doesn't care too much about the appearance or colour of the machines in my collection, the only reason I would try to de-yellow something is if it prevented further deterioration of the plastic (not the colour, but the fact that some plastics turn very brittle with age, for example). I do not believe retrobrite does this (does it?) I don't know of a treatment that does, is there one? > > Personally I quite like the patina of a yellowed machine anyway - being > able to see how it sat in a room, or where stickers used to be and such; > it's a minor thing, but sometimes it does tell a little bit of a story. > Maybe in 20 years if I ever sell any of my collection I might consider it, > but for now they may as well stay yellow :) I'm leaving mine alone (and not just because I am lazy). It would appear you can use retrobrite at any time, but you can't undo the effects of it. So I'll keep my machines as they are (unless there is some treatment to prolong the life of the plastic), if some future owner wants to deyellow them after I am in a pine box, they can. -tony From wulfman at wulfman.com Sat Aug 22 08:58:57 2015 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 06:58:57 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 29B In-Reply-To: <286b9f8b9c177dac10bb9e0c508a0ae0@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> References: <20150822131702.6276E18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <286b9f8b9c177dac10bb9e0c508a0ae0@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> Message-ID: <55D88021.9070503@wulfman.com> thats it. I hardly ever use the data IO unless i need to burn a bipolar prom i have anther prom programmer much newer that does everything except bipolar proms thanks rik been a while since i used it and forget the name On 8/22/2015 6:31 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > The software is pl.exe " promlink". > On the dataio yahoo group you can find the link and lots of info regarding data io equipment. > I use it a lot for programming proms, like the HP 1000 boot proms. > > -Rik > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: "Noel Chiappa" > Verzonden: ?22-?8-?2015 15:17 > Aan: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > CC: "jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu" > Onderwerp: Re: Data I/O 29B > > > From: wulfman > > > I have a modified dos program that talks to the data i/o > > its the one that they sold with the unit but only ran on a 286 > > ... > > the modified one i have works in windows 7 in a dos box > > I seem to recall that I downloaded some software to run my 29B (although I > have yet to work with it extensively), and that it did run in a DOS box under > Windows 98? Is that the '286' one you're referring to? > > If so, maybe that won't run in a DOS box under the later versions of Windows? > Or maybe I have a different program from the one you're talking about? (Or > maybe I somehow downloaded an already-fixed version?) > > > if your interested i can send it to you > > Other than running under Windows 7, does it have any other improvements? > If so, I might be interested. > > Whatever the case, if you would like someone to host it for open download, > let me know. > > Noel > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 22 09:23:06 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 09:23:06 -0500 Subject: HP 5480A, or, obscure HP instruments / was Re: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <936263F3-EBD5-4258-8E34-5444A61619CA@cs.ubc.ca> <7794D73C-6270-489A-85C0-79051F64E251@cs.ubc.ca> <55D5E582.5080804@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D885CA.2030609@charter.net> On 8/22/2015 8:14 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > > It only helps a little though and when eBay eliminated wildcard matching > awhile back, they also reduced the maximum query length. What I /really/ > don't like about eBay's current search system, is how it substitutes > keywords internally. If I search for "Compaq", I don't want results for > "HP", and likewise if I search for "HP", I don't want results for > "Compaq"... > There is a lot that eBay gets wrong. The opportunity available to them is enormous, but they just don't grasp it. PayPal made making money easy enough that eBay got left by the wayside. Maybe now things can get better - because if they don't they may not survive. Posting something directly online is tortuous, terribly confusing for newbies, and using their "TurboLister" isn't much better. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 22 09:26:03 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 09:26:03 -0500 Subject: Update on SA-800 Problem In-Reply-To: <55D806A2.1090501@sydex.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D4D691.9040309@cimmeri.com> <201508201740.NAA28438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D73D1D.5030908@snarc.net> <201508211607.MAA23824@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55D7694F.6040007@snarc.net> <201508212003.QAA22712@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1FED23EE-E8F0-4A65-B2AD-B7EC5BDD0370@comcast.net> <55D7D463.9090903@charter.net> <55D806A2.1090501@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D8867B.1090302@charter.net> On 8/22/2015 12:20 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/21/2015 06:46 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> One other thing I have noticed is that sometimes after a read problem >> on the bad drive the FD 1791 floppy controller chip seems to get into >> a "snit" that even a reset does not cure - I have to cycle power to >> get it back. Now that I have a reliable drive as the first drive, it >> is clear that this is not a reinsertion / wobble issue. So, I will >> have to check the reset line going to that and the PIO chip that >> supports it to see if there is a problem on the board. I also have >> some spare FD 1791's I can try, that are of a slightly later >> revision, to see if the problem is related to that specific chip. > > Try a later revision of the 91. We had miserable problems with the > WD1781 (the FDC that no one has heard of) and eventually had to > incorporate an external register bit into the design to enable software > to do a "hard" reset of the 1781. It could occasionally just go deaf > and dumb; WDC knew about the problem and that was the only solution > offered. > > --Chuck > > Yes, my thought as well. From jrr at flippers.com Sat Aug 22 09:45:52 2015 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 07:45:52 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 29B In-Reply-To: <021B7FDCA02A4F7B9A3A0BC11793C83D@RosemarysPC> References: <021B7FDCA02A4F7B9A3A0BC11793C83D@RosemarysPC> Message-ID: <55D88B20.9030002@flippers.com> On 08/21/2015 5:33 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > I have a small batch of Data I/O EPROM burners. Trying to test them out and ran into a nightmare. They require a pin family and size parameter. But in none of the documentation is there any mention of what these values are. There are some generic pinouts, which are almost useless because Data I/O changed the definition of several pins. > > Then the manual says to get your part's timing chart and compare them to 409 pages of timing charts to find the family type! Nothing is mentioned anywhere on how to calculate size parameter. > > There should be a chart or document somewhere that gives the parameters by model numbers like 2516, 2764, etc. > > Anyone know of a document like this? > > Anyone have experience with the model 29A&B, Model 19, Model 100 gang programmer, etc. > > At this point, without better data, these 11 -12 deveces are heading for the scrap pile. This is the poorest documentation I've ever seen on a piece of test equipment. > > Billy Pettit > > There is a good support group for these machine hosted by Alfred Morin on yahoo. To join etc, : https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Data_IO_EPROM Also, I have a bit of Data I/O stuff filed away here (not well sorted I'm afraid) from TTL - Tech Tools (mail) List: FTP site is:ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment https://pairlist7.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist John :-#)# From mail.nickallen at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 10:04:41 2015 From: mail.nickallen at gmail.com (Nick Allen) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 10:04:41 -0500 Subject: Looking for Vintage Gold Lead LEDs for SCELBI project Message-ID: <55D88F89.8020907@gmail.com> Hey everyone, I am looking for some vintage Gold-Lead clear LEDs that light up red for a Scelbi project I am working on for VCFMW. Will need 29 of them if you have them, willing to trade or buy them, thnx!! -Nick From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Aug 22 10:16:20 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 10:16:20 -0500 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> Message-ID: <55D89244.3040004@pico-systems.com> On 08/22/2015 12:20 AM, Ali wrote: > Jon, > >> Enough Pertec drives were made so that manuals should be no problem. >> Some other makes were made in fairly small numbers so manuals may be a >> problem. > I should have been more clear - the manuals were for the ISA interface card > and the accompanying SW not for an particular drive. If you are buying a 30+ year-old tape drive, you WILL NEED the manuals! There may be setup options that need to be configured, or there may be something wrong with the drive. Obviously, you won't be buying a new 1/2" tape drive with factory warranty, and these things are both complex and finicky, compared to typical computer hardware. > >> You have to decide, spring-arm, vacuum-column or streaming, and then >> most dual density drives were either 800/1600 or 1600/6250. Few would >> do all three. (Also there's 3200 BPI, identical to 1600 PE mode, just >> double the clock, but it is a fairly rare setup.) > Thanks for the info. I had seen (on YouTube) videos of the vacuum-column and > streaming drives. The spring arm I am not familiar with. Is it just an arm > that produces tension on the tape keeping it in place? yes, a cheaper version of the vacuum column. usually used only on slower drives, but I have seen them up to 45 IPS. >> Oh, with "Pertec interface" there are TWO FLAVORS! The old system was >> Pertec unformatted, with 3 cables. >> Write, Read and Control. Later was Pertec formatted, with two cables. >> They are totally incompatible, so make sure you get drives compatible >> with your interface. > Thanks again. I was not aware of this. My card has the two 50 pin edge > connectors coming from one cable that terminates in a D-Sub so I would say > this is the Pertec formatted interface. I could also go SCSI as long as the > tape drives would follow "standard" SCSI commands but those type of drives > seem even more expensive. > > I've been looking for a SCSI 1/2" drive (or conversion boards for my CDC 92185's) for years. Never found one. I did rescue a SCSI to Pertec-formatted converter box off a scrap drive, and it WORKED the first time I powered it up, then the darn thing quit with a power on self test error! Arrgh! Jon From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 10:34:22 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 11:34:22 -0400 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write References: Message-ID: <6A0329D161604A669A5168CFD09DC1AD@310e2> Do we know the make/model of this drive? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Verdiell" To: Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 12:50 AM Subject: RE: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write > Chuck, > I looked at the pin 2 signal and resulting drive > behavior. It doesn't > properly auto-switch between densities as it > should. It does switch it for > reading, but not for writing. Below is the full > story. > > There is one jumper that controls DD/HD > switching mode. > > In the auto position, I can read both HD and DD > formats (I use the right > diskettes for either format). You can see the > computer on pin 2 (density > select) trying both positions, settling on the > right one (high for HD, low > for DD), and reading the disc correctly. > That's great. But when writing, although pin 2 > goes to the right level, the > floppy seems to ignore it. It will always write > at DD, and refuse to write > in HD (no signal at the head). > > Interestingly, in the fixed density position > (should be HD only), it WILL > write at 1.2M HD! The write signal does appears > at the head. Unfortunately > in this setting it will NOT switch the reading, > get stuck reading only DD > and fail on HD. > > So I can either have the reading HD or the > writing HD, but not the two at > the same time. That's why a regular format > fails. The density switching > logic seems to have a problem. Rather than track > down which IC or transistor > failed on the board it might be much simpler to > get another 5.25 floppy. In > the meantime my understanding of these simple > critters has improved a lot. > > Marc > >>At high density, have you taken a good look at >>pin 2 of the floppy >>interface? Have you checked to see if pin 2 is >>configured (via jumpers) >>as "density select"? >>--Chuck > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 22 11:08:13 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 11:08:13 -0500 Subject: Silent 785 docs? Message-ID: <002901d0dcf4$c03a6dd0$40af4970$@classiccmp.org> I've got a TI Silent 785 I'm trying to get configured/running. I see docs on bitsavers for the earlier models, but not anything in the 780 series and outwardly they do appear to be somewhat different than the 700 series. My google searches don't return joy either. I'm particularly looking for serial port configuration. Anyone have operators and/or service manual for the Silent 785? J From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 22 11:26:13 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 11:26:13 -0500 Subject: Data I/O 29B In-Reply-To: <021B7FDCA02A4F7B9A3A0BC11793C83D@RosemarysPC> References: <021B7FDCA02A4F7B9A3A0BC11793C83D@RosemarysPC> Message-ID: <002e01d0dcf7$43e5c970$cbb15c50$@classiccmp.org> I'm confused that you couldn't find any info on these. I have a 29B with quite a few different attachments. These are about the best documented units I've seen. I probably have 3 or 4 inches of documentation (fairly sure it includes schematics), and at least 3 different versions of DOS programs that allow you to control and automate the unit. ISTR a unix one floating around as well. I know the docs include "thousands" of pinout families referenced to which chips they are for... I believe I scrounged all this from google years back. Let me know if you can't find info.... J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Billy Pettit Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 7:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Data I/O 29B I have a small batch of Data I/O EPROM burners. Trying to test them out and ran into a nightmare. They require a pin family and size parameter. But in none of the documentation is there any mention of what these values are. There are some generic pinouts, which are almost useless because Data I/O changed the definition of several pins. Then the manual says to get your part's timing chart and compare them to 409 pages of timing charts to find the family type! Nothing is mentioned anywhere on how to calculate size parameter. There should be a chart or document somewhere that gives the parameters by model numbers like 2516, 2764, etc. Anyone know of a document like this? Anyone have experience with the model 29A&B, Model 19, Model 100 gang programmer, etc. At this point, without better data, these 11 -12 deveces are heading for the scrap pile. This is the poorest documentation I've ever seen on a piece of test equipment. Billy Pettit From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 22 12:07:25 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 12:07:25 -0500 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <484598CB-9804-413D-A1C8-458F2B43F48E@cs.ubc.ca> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> <484598CB-9804-413D-A1C8-458F2B43F48E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <55D8AC4D.6090402@charter.net> On 8/22/2015 5:32 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Aug-21, at 10:20 PM, Ali wrote: > > A brief conceptual overview: > > Vacuum-column and spring-arm drives comprise 3 servo systems: > - each reel motor is in a closed servo loop with position sensors in its associated vacuum column or spring arm. > - the capstan motor, driving the exposed tape between the reels, is in a servo loop with a tape-speed sensor, > and externally controlled by commands for forward/reverse and speed selection. > > The 3 servo systems are electrically independent (in control terms and leaving aside power supplies). > The connection between them is the tape. > One other type: spring arm, where the tape reels do all the tape moving, and a speed sensor, rather than a traditional capstan. The tension arm is part of the servo system to which the reel motors respond. In this case the reel motors and tension arm are anything but independent. Example: HP 88780 JRJ From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Aug 22 12:55:07 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 17:55:07 +0000 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> Message-ID: <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> Jay, this is a really great post. I feel really bad for you - having the same piece of equipment go bang/flash more than once would have been totally demoralizing to me - but I really admire both your tenacity and your willingness to share this with the rest of us. Thank you! Sure hope that disk is spinning its proper string of bits before long. You deserve the chance to post a victory story soon! - Mark On Aug 20, 2015, at 9:57 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > What follows is a tale of carelessness, stupidity and laziness. So far, > I haven't found an excuse to add ignorance to the list. ;) As you may > recall, I was testing an 8" floppy drive that was reading inconsistently > on an Altos 8000 system, when, while testing with a replacement drive, > the 24V power supply gave out. > > First I acquired a replacement series pass (2N3055) from Radio Shack. > That did not seem to fix the problem. Further, due to *carelessness* > (#1) during the replacement and testing of the 2N3055, I managed to > break the center lead off of the TIP31A which drives it. > > So, I ordered a replacement for the TIP31A, and, while I was at it, > ordered several LM723 Voltage Regulators, just in case (good idea, as it > turned out). Then, I replaced the TIP31A, put it back together and --- > nothing. No output. Oh well, I guess the LM723 must be bad. > > Then, in the process of checking that out, I tilted the board over on > its back and, due to my *carelessness* (#2) and *stupidity* (#3)) > FLASH!!! BANG!!!! POP!!!! > > Though switched off, the power supply was still plugged in - I had > neglected to unplug it. The board came in contact with what SHOULD HAVE > BEEN neutral, which likely would have caused no harm. I didn't actually > realize that until I was on my way back home with the parts to replace > what had blown out. > > [Also a design note: Altos did not cover up the input terminals on the > transformer or use quick disconnect plugs - either of which would have > saved the day.] > > After some thought (and a test), I realized that, due to prior laziness > / neglect (#4 - about 10 years+ worth), and a dose of stupidity, the > mains hot and neutral were reversed on my bench. Thus the power switch > was on the neutral side, and the mains to the power supply was "hot" > even when not turned on. > > At least this was not *originally* my fault. That circuit came that way > when we bought the house. But, out of laziness, neglect and stupidity, I > had not fixed it, even though I had known about it for years. > > So, this blew up the -12V supply (quite literally) -- cross out a pair > of rectifiers, an LM723 voltage regulator (spectacularly blown up, with > a hole in middle and two leads blow away), and a 2N2905 transistor, a > couple of resistors and a trace on the circuit board. (At the time, the > 2N3055 series pass transistor was not connected in the circuit). The > fuse didn't blow - it wasn't part of the circuit, being on the neutral > side of things because of the miss-wired mains in the house - the short > was from hot to ground. (A GFCI, had I had one, would undoubtedly have > tripped). > > Next, I pulled out all the blown components, and tested what was left. > Being at least halfway clever, I proceeded to test the +24V and +12V > supplies first. Once I replaced the original LM723 on the +24V supply, > which was already undoubtedly bad, the +24V supply was fine - the short > to the mains had not affected it. But the +12V supply's LM723 had > apparently been collateral damage - the -12V supply uses the +12V supply > as part of its LM723 circuit, so the two are connected. (I knew > something was wrong, because even though I could set the supply +12V, > the adjustment worked backwards, and under load the voltage dropped too > much). > > So, I replaced the +12V supply LM723, and the +12V supply came back to > life. Both tested fine under load, no ripple, only 20mv of noise. > During these tests, I moved the same 2N3055 from circuit to circuit to > avoid having to completely reassemble the supply. That saved time. But, > do you think I was done being careless? Noooooooooooooope. > > Next, I soldered in the components for the -12V supply, including its > 2N3055, and turned it on. KA-BANG!!! FLASH!!! DEBRIS CLOUD !!! Out > of carelessness (#5) I had managed to put the electrolytic input > capacitors in BACWARDS. I now had a nice coil of cardboard and aluminum > sticking up out of one of them. Then the next day (today) I found the > can itself lying on the floor - this power supply predates the modern > practice of scored break lines in electrolytic capacitors. It could > easily have hit me in the eye. > > So, I took both of those capacitors out, and tested the one that had not > blown up. It seemed to be OK - no excessive leakage. So, I put in a > replacement and... 0V output. > > Blown fuse. What the? Ahhhhh - forgot to check the rectifiers - and the > capacitor reversal took both of those with it. The other semiconductors > were fine. > > Replaced the rectifiers, put in the capacitors correctly and, finally, > the -12V supply came to life. Adjusted, load tested, checked ripple. > > (Still need to replace the surviving capacitor. I don't trust it. And > the smaller signal transistor I used is a bit underrated compared to the > original (650mw vs. 800mw), so I expect I will replace both in a week or > so, but for now the supply is quite usable. > > Ah yes - one other thing. The circuit (which the bench shares with a > wall-wart powered water softener) that had hot and neutral reversed is > reversed no longer, as of this afternoon. It now also has a GFCI, for > good measure - a good idea on a bench circuit, methinks. > > So, maybe tomorrow, I can put this machine back together and get back to > testing the floppy drive. > > So, SAFETY FIRST. Learn from my experience - it could have been deadly > or resulted in serious injury (say, if a shock or reaction to the > capacitor explosion had caused me to tip over on my stool an hit my > head, or that capacitor can projectile had hit me in the eye). > > To paraphrase from the Direct TV commercials: DON'T BE LIKE THE LAZY ME. > DON'T BE LIKE THE CARELESS ME. Be like the smarter, conscientious me > who knows better. UNPLUG stuff before you work on it - DOUBLE CHECK. > HAVE A GFCI for your workbench. Wear some kind of safety goggles or at > least hardened corrective lenses when soldering and testing power > supplies, especially. When replacing filter capacitors in a power > supply (or anywhere else, for that matter), take an extra second to > double check their polarity (I usually do - but "spaced" it this time). > > [Which reminds me of the IBM 1414 I/O synchronizer that had been at the > U. Wisconsin Registrar and then the U. W. school of business, that had > easily more than 10 smallish filter capacitors on the backplane that > were backwards for years (these were hooked up with little sockets that > slipped right over the pins on the backplane). Each day it took 10 > minutes for things to settle down and the printer to stop showing its > red Sync Check light because of the noise in the circuit. But they > never blew up. The FE's finally got tired of seeing that anomaly and > spent an entire day hunting it down.] > > I wish I could say I was in a hurry. That excuse wouldn't cut it anyway > - but I was actually taking my time. Just careless. > > Sigh. > > JRJ > > > > > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Aug 22 13:04:51 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 19:04:51 +0100 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/08/2015 13:50, Tothwolf wrote: > On Sat, 22 Aug 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: >> All the techniques discussed so far involve using a "bleach" of some >> kind and possibly UV light. Some use other materials so you have a >> gell which makes it easier to apply. >> From what I have read yellowing usually/often/always re-occurs.. > > Hydrogen Peroxide, not bleach. Hydrogen peroxide *is* a bleach, as any chemist can tell you. Never heard of "peroxide blonde"? -- Pete Pete Turnbull From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 13:13:53 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 19:13:53 +0100 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <084201d0dd06$4dc20e90$e9462bb0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete > Turnbull > Sent: 22 August 2015 19:05 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: De-yellowing > > On 22/08/2015 13:50, Tothwolf wrote: > > On Sat, 22 Aug 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > >> All the techniques discussed so far involve using a "bleach" of some > >> kind and possibly UV light. Some use other materials so you have a > >> gell which makes it easier to apply. > >> From what I have read yellowing usually/often/always re-occurs.. > > > > Hydrogen Peroxide, not bleach. > > Hydrogen peroxide *is* a bleach, as any chemist can tell you. Never heard of > "peroxide blonde"? > I should probably have said a ""peroxide based bleaching agent" as most folks assume "bleach" means "chlorine based bleach" which is not what is being used here. However there are several variations on this theme and several slightly different chemicals have been used as the bleach... > -- > Pete > > Pete Turnbull Dave Wade From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 22 13:43:11 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 11:43:11 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <55D8AC4D.6090402@charter.net> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> <484598CB-9804-413D-A1C8-458F2B43F48E@cs.ubc.ca> <55D8AC4D.6090402@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D8C2BF.207@sydex.com> On 08/22/2015 10:07 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > One other type: spring arm, where the tape reels do all the tape > moving, and a speed sensor, rather than a traditional capstan. The > tension arm is part of the servo system to which the reel motors > respond. In this case the reel motors and tension arm are anything > but independent. Historically, the two are very different in application. If you've got a COBOL handy on your tape system, try running the 1974 Navy Audit Tests, once the set of benchmarks by which CODASYL compliance of a vendor's COBOL was judged. (Al, do you have a copy of those on bitsavers?) Very short tape records were written and read back in one of the tests (I forget which one; it's been 40 years after all). Vacuum-column tape drives made the most itneresting noises as they went through their start-top tape motion. You could actually play melodies on some of them, simply by varying the block length. Vacuum-column drives, if you will, are inertia-trading devices. The reel motors are powerful in a 300 ips drive; they have to be. Practically speaking, it's not realistic to expect the system composed of the mass of the tape reels and the motors behind them to go from 0 to 300 ips in a fraction of a second--nor, to do it accurately. So, the reel motors handle the approximate movement of the high-inertia reel system and only maintain a few feet of loose tape, held in the vacuum columns, said short length massing almost nothing. The capstan(s) can then manage the quick tape movements quite nicely. The nature of the capstan mechanism varied between manufacturers--some used a pinch-roller sort of affair; the others used perforated capstans whose selection of nothing, vacuum or positive pressure could be managed quite nicely by a voice-coil valve. The point is that during the 50s and much of the 60s, diskless/drumless systems were not uncommon (anyone remember S/360 TOS?) and tapes were used as working storage. Sometime during the 70s, with the proliferation of disk storage, tapes became relegated to archival or offline storage, not working storage. Pick up a copy of Flores or Knuth on sorting and you can see how important tapes were for handling and manipulating large amounts of information. Comes the minicomputer and you begin to see spring-arm and direct servo drive units aimed toward the archival use of tapes--that is, a tape held information to be copied to a disk, so start-stop on a dime wasn't necessary. If one overshot a record, the drive/formatter only needed to bring the tape to a halt and read backwards until the gap before the desired block was reached, then back up another block or so and get a running start at the target. This change in role probably is what governed the brain-dead treatment of tape by later operating systems such as UNIX and PRIMOS, to name a couple. Until the advent of cheap cartridge tapes, almost all microcomputer OSes were utterly ignorant of the existence of tapes. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 22 13:45:23 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 11:45:23 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> On 08/22/2015 11:04 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Hydrogen peroxide *is* a bleach, as any chemist can tell you. Never > heard of "peroxide blonde"? Has anyone tried ditching the peroxide and simply gone to using a solution of sodium percarbonate (e.g. "Oxyclean")? Cheap and pretty shelf-stable in the powder form. Not that I care about yellow plastic. It's all going to crumble eventually. --Chuck From aloha at blastpuppy.com Sat Aug 22 13:50:27 2015 From: aloha at blastpuppy.com (Robert Johnson) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 11:50:27 -0700 Subject: More on manuals plus rescue In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC884D1A0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <55D34D93.1080102@bitsavers.org> <1D797D80-FECB-4F39-AE89-D3372C92ECD8@platinum.net> <55D73C5C.70408@snarc.net> <55D7413E.1030908@snarc.net> Message-ID: Sean, Avaya for a while in the early to mid 2000's only made their manuals available to authorized resellers, that seems to have changed sometime after buying Nortel, all of the Avaya manuals, and the corresponding nortel ones became freely available online. Not sure I have the link anymore however. I personally find the Meridian much easier to program than say a Merlin II or whatever - but I found I needed a manual in either case to not be completely lost. Robert Johnson -- Gtalk/Jabber:aloha at blastpuppy.com AIM:AlohaWulf Yahoo:AlohaWulf Skype:AlohaWolf Telephone:+1-562-286-4255 C*NET: 18219881 Email:aloha at blastpuppy.com Email:alohawolf at gmail.com -- "Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of "crackpot" than the stigma of conformity." - Thomas J. Watson Sr. On 21-Aug-15, at 12:00 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > That's odd, as long as I can remember, Lucent/Avaya distributed the > manuals > at least for their PBX and key products pretty openly; Nortel tried > to keep > them more closely held but eventually relented, too. Carrier-grade > stuff > (i.e. 5ESS and SL-100/DMS-100) was always another story, of course. > I don't > recall ever having any issues getting needed documentation when > bringing my > Definity up and that was circa maybe 2008? Of course, the Definity > is so > easy to figure out, you hardly need a manual ... Definitely need > them on > the Meridian though :O > > Best, > > Sean From other at oryx.us Sat Aug 22 14:02:34 2015 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 14:02:34 -0500 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D8C74A.8010108@oryx.us> All, the original page seems to be off line currently for retr0bright. Also, more current copies seem to be forbidden to be archived via robots.txt. Here is an older copy of the page that was available in the Wayback Machine. enjoy, Jerry From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Aug 22 14:11:33 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 07:11:33 +1200 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> Message-ID: >Has anyone tried ditching the peroxide and simply gone to using a solution of sodium percarbonate (e.g. "Oxyclean")? >Cheap and pretty shelf-stable in the powder form Yes, I have Chuck. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-01-21-deyellowing-with-oxy-only.htm Sometimes it doesn't turn out well though... http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-04-11-lisa-keys-retrobrighting-misstep.html With my own retr0briting I've found off-white cream cases come up well, but anything that is grey can easily "bloom" if over exposed. In my experience deyellowing is only temporary http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-01-15-retr0bright-only-temporary.htm It does make the cases look good for a while though. (: Terry (Tez) From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Aug 22 14:18:45 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 12:18:45 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001801d0dd0f$5e22a0c0$1a67e240$@net> > I've never tried the stuff - but is it a permanent fix, or does the > yellowing gradually come back? It comes back. Search for retrobright on VCF. Tez has posted pictures of his experience. -Ali From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 22 14:37:47 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 12:37:47 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> On 08/22/2015 12:11 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > In my experience deyellowing is only temporary > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-01-15-retr0bright-only-temporary.htm > > It does make the cases look good for a while though. (: I can believe that the effect is only temporary--the action simply cannot go any deeper than a few microns. All of which goes to show that if you want a more permanent color, there's always paint. I have equipment that's made from high-density polyurethane foam (no special dies or forms needed for injection molding) finished with a coat of paint that's more than 30 years old. It looks as good as the day it was delivered. --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 22 14:41:36 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 14:41:36 -0500 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> Message-ID: <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> On 8/22/2015 12:55 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > Jay, > this is a really great post. I feel really bad for you - having the same piece of equipment go bang/flash more than once would have been totally demoralizing to me - but I really admire both your tenacity and your willingness to share this with the rest of us. > Thank you! Sure hope that disk is spinning its proper string of bits before long. You deserve the chance to post a victory story soon! > - Mark > Thanks. Really, such mistakes aren't too demoralizing if one can get the parts, get them in a reasonable amount of time, at a reasonable price, and have the skill to do the fix (which, in this case, wasn't a whole lot) -- especially if there are good lessons to be learned along the way. But the carelessness was DANGEROUS, which is really why I posted it. (BTW, in the way of other stories, a good friend once took out the processor UNIBUS interface and damaged peripherals when his watch shorted to the backplane of a PDP-11/20. I also did something not too dissimilar with my ring shorting out one bus line on my PDP-8/L. Sigh). Unfortunately, bearings did not help the floppy drive, so now I am busy taking the floppy power supply I got with my FD 100-8, making sure it is up to spec to use with the Shugart (and correcting that if needs be), and making it safer (mains fuse, switch) and more fault tolerant (fuse in the 24V line, at least) and making sure all of the mains connected innards are not exposed. Just about done with that. The +24V and -7 to -16V are in spec, but the +5V (which, curiously for a 1A supply, does NOT use a simple 3 terminal regulator) is a tad high, at 5.35V. I may just change it to use a three terminal unit. Once I get that together, I can try out my SA-801's to see if that was what blew the Altos power supply up, or if it just shorted against something when I started that test. I can also more easily then measure the "wobble" on the SA-800 and compare it to other drives, swap out spindles, etc. JRJ From rob at bitscience.ca Sat Aug 22 15:04:13 2015 From: rob at bitscience.ca (Robert Ferguson) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 16:04:13 -0400 Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D6A772.1050204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7B0644BC-383D-425D-9FB9-985CB7B75B9C@bitscience.ca> I have had several similar personal experiences. Even in the face of extreme need, huge companies and major institutions sometimes can't find things you'd think should be at their fingertips. When you think about it from a historical point of view, it's actually pretty shocking. > On Aug 21, 2015, at 12:50 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Indeed, I've been contacted by an author for a copy of his own software to >> be licensed to another party, as he'd lost the code several years back. >> (Yes, I purchased a license way back when). > > A few years ago, an engineer at a Very Big Corporation asked me if I > had their source code to the firmware in one of their best-selling > products, which has sold tens of millions of units over more than two > decades. They had lost the source code, and they knew that I had some > familiarity with the internals of the product, so they thought I might > have the source code. > > I had actually requested the source code from them many years before, > and had been willing to sign an NDA, but they had not been willing to > make it available to me. > > A few years after they asked me, they did track down one of the > employees who originally wrote the firmware, and who had retained a > copy of the source code, probably contrary to company policy. > > I've worked for several companies that lost source code and were saved > by employees having kept copies in violation of corporate policy. One > of those companies threatened to fire the employee who saved their > bacon by having kept the code. (No, it wasn't me.) > > People have told me that big companies have good controls and don't > lose their source code. From personal experience I can say that you > can't count on that. From earl at retrobits.com Sat Aug 22 12:52:33 2015 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 10:52:33 -0700 Subject: VT100 preventative maintenance? Message-ID: Hi all, I have two VT100 terminals. Both of them work just fine. Should I leave well enough alone, or is there preventative maintenance that should be done? For instance, should capacitors be proactively replaced. In general, I'm thinking about things that, if they fail catastrophically, would cause collateral damage. Thanks! - Earl From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 22 13:00:33 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 19:00:33 +0100 Subject: VT100 preventative maintenance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can't say I know for sure, but I did replace all the electrolytics on the video control boards of both my VT101 and VT102, because there was a definite wobble to the image on both terminals. Replacing all of them fixed the wobble. As I have posted before, I did this after testing each capacitor with the test equipment I have, which is just a capacitance meter and an ESR meter, neither of which appeared to reveal a problem. Regards Rob On 22 August 2015 at 18:52, Earl Evans wrote: > Hi all, > > I have two VT100 terminals. Both of them work just fine. > > Should I leave well enough alone, or is there preventative maintenance that > should be done? For instance, should capacitors be proactively replaced. In > general, I'm thinking about things that, if they fail catastrophically, > would cause collateral damage. > > Thanks! > > - Earl > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 22 13:10:19 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 18:10:19 +0000 Subject: VT100 preventative maintenance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Should I leave well enough alone, or is there preventative maintenance that > should be done? For instance, should capacitors be proactively replaced. In > general, I'm thinking about things that, if they fail catastrophically, > would cause collateral damage. The main part you want to protect is the flyback transformer. It is very hard to get a good replacement now. Flybacks can just fail, but failure can be caused by defective diodes and capactors on the video PCB. Look at the schematics for your video board (there are at least 3 versions) for half-wave rectifier circuits that produce the CRT and video stage supply voltages from the flyback. You might want to check or replace those diodes and caps. A VT100 and models derived from it (VT105, etc) has an SMPSU. Defective capacitors on that can kill the chopper transistor, but that is in not impossible to replace. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 22 13:43:48 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 19:43:48 +0100 Subject: VT100 preventative maintenance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oooh, didn't know about the diodes. Are there any specific ones that you think should be replaced no matter what? If not, are there any tests you would recommend? Regards Rob On 22 August 2015 at 19:10, tony duell wrote: > > > > Should I leave well enough alone, or is there preventative maintenance > that > > should be done? For instance, should capacitors be proactively replaced. > In > > general, I'm thinking about things that, if they fail catastrophically, > > would cause collateral damage. > > The main part you want to protect is the flyback transformer. It is very > hard to > get a good replacement now. Flybacks can just fail, but failure can be > caused > by defective diodes and capactors on the video PCB. Look at the schematics > for > your video board (there are at least 3 versions) for half-wave rectifier > circuits that > produce the CRT and video stage supply voltages from the flyback. You > might want > to check or replace those diodes and caps. > > A VT100 and models derived from it (VT105, etc) has an SMPSU. Defective > capacitors > on that can kill the chopper transistor, but that is in not impossible to > replace. > > -tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 22 14:14:44 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 19:14:44 +0000 Subject: VT100 preventative maintenance? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > Oooh, didn't know about the diodes. Are there any specific ones that you Err, no... There is this witch-hunt against capacitors, but other components are never considered > think should be replaced no matter what? If not, are there any tests you > would recommend? There are several supplies derrived from the flyback transformer. Let's take as an example the Ball Brothers VT100 monitor on page 43 of the printset on bitsavers. There is a -120V line, used for the control grid (g1), produced from the primary side of the flyback by CR110 and C117. I think if this failed it wouldn't damage the flyback, though There is a +32V supply for the video amplifier, produced by CR114 and C121 A 400V supply for the the first and focus anodes (OK, g2 and g3 across the Pond [1]) -- CR113 and C120. If either of those play up in can cause the flyback to overheat, The 11.5kV final anode voltage is produced by CR1 and smoothed by the capacitance of the CRT. I think CR1 is integral with the flyback transformer though. [1] In the UK we call all CRT elecrodes after the control grid (first grid) 'anodes' which makes sense as they are run +ve wrt the cathode. In the states, everything between the cathode and final anode (the aquadag coating on the CRT flare running at 10kV or more) is a 'grid'. Now something has just struck me. The adjusment for the first anode, if present (it isn't in this VT100) is known as the 'screen' control. What I do not know is if it's called that because it controls the overall brightness of the CRT screen, or because it sets the voltage on what is called G2 across the Pond, and which would be the screen grid of a tetrode or pentode. Does anyone know the reason? -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Aug 22 14:23:35 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 15:23:35 -0400 Subject: VT100 preventative maintenance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Aug 22, 2015, at 3:14 PM, tony duell wrote: > > ... > [1] In the UK we call all CRT elecrodes after the control grid (first grid) 'anodes' which > makes sense as they are run +ve wrt the cathode. So does a UK tetrode have one grid and two anodes? Or is there one terminology for CRTs and a different one for other tubes? paul From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 22 15:45:29 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 15:45:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <084201d0dd06$4dc20e90$e9462bb0$@gmail.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> <084201d0dd06$4dc20e90$e9462bb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Aug 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: > On Sat, 22 Aug 2015, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 22/08/2015 13:50, Tothwolf wrote: >>> On Sat, 22 Aug 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: >>> >>>> All the techniques discussed so far involve using a "bleach" of some >>>> kind and possibly UV light. Some use other materials so you have a >>>> gell which makes it easier to apply. >>>> From what I have read yellowing usually/often/always re-occurs.. >>> >>> Hydrogen Peroxide, not bleach. >> >> Hydrogen peroxide *is* a bleach, as any chemist can tell you. Never >> heard of "peroxide blonde"? > > I should probably have said a ""peroxide based bleaching agent" as most > folks assume "bleach" means "chlorine based bleach" which is not what is > being used here. > However there are several variations on this theme and several slightly > different chemicals have been used as the bleach... Exactly what I meant. Most will assume chlorine based bleach when someone mentions the term "bleach". From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Aug 22 16:00:05 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 14:00:05 -0700 Subject: FS: PDP-11/55 Message-ID: <55D8E2D5.8060306@shiresoft.com> I have nothing to do with this...I just noticed it on alt.sys.pdp11 and figured that I'd pass it along. TTFN - Guy Hi all, I have a PDP-11/55 for sale (Ottawa, Ontario, Canada). Bids open until 2015 09 15, buyer to arrange shipping, I will have it wrapped and ready to go. Please visit: www.krten.com/~rk/museum/index.html For pictures, detailed inventory and contact info. Sealed bids via eamil please. Winner will be notified 2015 09 16, machine will be ready to ship same day. Must be shipped / picked up no later than 2015 10 09. Sold AS-IS / where is, untested, unpowered since received. Comes with H960 rack and 2 side panels. Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten Visit me at http://www.ironkrten.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 22 16:07:48 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 16:07:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > On Aug 20, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> On 8/20/2015 3:32 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: >> >>> I assume all the 8K, 4K BASICs are in public domain by now. The demo >>> for the kids will be the 15 minutes of paper tape, followed by READY. >> >> Bad assumption. Things that were actually registered even if there was >> no notice, or published with a copyright notice would still be >> protected under U.S. copyright. > > Depending on when. If it was published without notice, the key question > is whether publication occurred before Jan 1, 1978, or after. After, > notice does not matter; before, lack of notice means no copyright. Indeed. Apple even screwed up on this with their iconic rainbow apple logo. I discovered this while researching the history of the logo while doing image work on Wikipedia / Wikimedia Commons many years ago. It is still a trademark, but the image is public domain because it was published before 1978 with no notice. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Apple_Computer_Logo_rainbow.svg From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 16:11:16 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 15:11:16 -0600 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > But the carelessness was DANGEROUS, which is really why I posted it. > > (BTW, in the way of other stories, a good friend once took out the > processor UNIBUS interface and damaged peripherals when his watch > shorted to the backplane of a PDP-11/20. I also did something not too > dissimilar with my ring shorting out one bus line on my PDP-8/L. Sigh). In my mostly misspent youth, I once had the opportunity to visit a facility where a now obscure supercomputer was developed. The product manager was showing me around. At one point we were looking at the backplane of a machine being tested or debugged, and an engineer comes over and starts to do something with the backplane, and the manager grabs his hand. He tells the engineer that he shouldn't work on it with a gold ring on his finger. At first I thought the manager was worried about the possibility of damage to the machine, but he quickly explained that he wasn't much worried about that, but rather for employee safety. The engineer said that it wasn't a problem because the highest voltage on the backplane is 5V. The manager pointed out that the power supply was rated for 600A, and undoubtedly could source more than that briefly, and to think about what would happen to your finger if you had hundreds of amps flowing through the ring. I suppose that might not be quite as exciting as having your neck tie caught in a 1403, but it still could make for a really bad day. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 22 16:14:44 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 14:14:44 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <55D8C2BF.207@sydex.com> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> <484598CB-9804-413D-A1C8-458F2B43F48E@cs.ubc.ca> <55D8AC4D.6090402@charter.net> <55D8C2BF.207@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D8E644.9020406@bitsavers.org> On 8/22/15 11:43 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Historically, the two are very different in application. If you've got a COBOL handy on your tape system, try running the 1974 Navy Audit Tests, once the set of benchmarks by which CODASYL compliance > of a vendor's COBOL was judged. (Al, do you have a copy of those on bitsavers?) > > No, I haven't the faintest idea where you would even find a copy today. From spc at conman.org Sat Aug 22 16:23:39 2015 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 17:23:39 -0400 Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement Message-ID: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> For my own morbid curiosity, and because it came up on another mailing list I'm on [1], what machines commercially avaialble were sign magnitude and one's complement? Every machine I've encountered was two's complement (okay, IEEE 754 [2] is a sign magnitude format but I'm talking about integer implementations here, not floating point). I've only found reference to one sign magnitude computer (the IBM 7090, release in 1959) and a few one's complement machines (mostly the PDP series from DEC). Where there others? And honestly, are there any machines that use anything other than two's complement today? -spc [1] http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2015-08/msg00386.html [2] AKA floating point. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 22 16:24:23 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 14:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Larry Niven's Altair In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Aug 2015, Tothwolf wrote: > Indeed. Apple even screwed up on this with their iconic rainbow apple logo. I > discovered this while researching the history of the logo while doing image > work on Wikipedia / Wikimedia Commons many years ago. It is still a > trademark, but the image is public domain because it was published before > 1978 with no notice. > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Apple_Computer_Logo_rainbow.svg Despite its lack of COPYRIGHTability, it is a REGISTERED TRADEMARK, which is more important to protect for THAT. (Either protection would make a competitor putting it on their products an infringement) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Aug 22 16:32:40 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 17:32:40 -0400 Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement In-Reply-To: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> References: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <55D8EA78.2040804@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-08-22 5:23 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > For my own morbid curiosity, and because it came up on another mailing > list I'm on [1], what machines commercially avaialble were sign magnitude > and one's complement? Every machine I've encountered was two's complement > (okay, IEEE 754 [2] is a sign magnitude format but I'm talking about integer > implementations here, not floating point). I've only found reference to one > sign magnitude computer (the IBM 7090, release in 1959) and a few one's > complement machines (mostly the PDP series from DEC). > > Where there others? And honestly, are there any machines that use > anything other than two's complement today? CDC 6000 series are significant one's-complement machines. --Toby > > -spc > > [1] http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2015-08/msg00386.html > > [2] AKA floating point. > > From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 22 16:35:15 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 16:35:15 -0500 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> On 8/22/2015 4:11 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > In my mostly misspent youth, I once had the opportunity to visit a > facility where a now obscure supercomputer was developed. The product > manager was showing me around. .... That wasn't Astronautics' ZS, by any chance? I ask, because I know some folks who worked on it and its software, and there are a couple of interesting stories I know about their work environment. I was surprised to find, via Google, that one of them still exists (at RICM). JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 22 16:40:54 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 16:40:54 -0500 Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement In-Reply-To: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> References: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <55D8EC66.7010702@charter.net> Univac 1100 series - one's complement. On 8/22/2015 4:23 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > For my own morbid curiosity, and because it came up on another mailing > list I'm on [1], what machines commercially avaialble were sign magnitude > and one's complement? Every machine I've encountered was two's complement > (okay, IEEE 754 [2] is a sign magnitude format but I'm talking about integer > implementations here, not floating point). I've only found reference to one > sign magnitude computer (the IBM 7090, release in 1959) and a few one's > complement machines (mostly the PDP series from DEC). > > Where there others? And honestly, are there any machines that use > anything other than two's complement today? > > -spc > > [1] http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2015-08/msg00386.html > > [2] AKA floating point. > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 22 16:49:50 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 14:49:50 -0700 Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement In-Reply-To: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> References: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <55D8EE7E.1000703@bitsavers.org> On 8/22/15 2:23 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > For my own morbid curiosity, and because it came up on another mailing > list I'm on [1], what machines commercially avaialble were sign magnitude > and one's complement? A table of what computers had what numeric representation is one of those things that should have been done, but never has. Now that bitsavers has a reasonable collection of technical/programming manuals, it might even be possible. http://quadibloc.com/comp/cpint.htm has some information, but it isn't really in any sort of tabular form. AFAIK, the PDP-1 was the only DEC 1's compliment machine that shipped. I had also heard that 1's compliment never caught on in short word length machines because of the difficulty dealing with multi-word arithmetic. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Aug 22 17:03:55 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 18:03:55 -0400 Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement In-Reply-To: <55D8EE7E.1000703@bitsavers.org> References: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> <55D8EE7E.1000703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55D8F1CB.7020105@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-08-22 5:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/22/15 2:23 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >> >> For my own morbid curiosity, and because it came up on another mailing >> list I'm on [1], what machines commercially avaialble were sign magnitude >> and one's complement? > > A table of what computers had what numeric representation is one of > those things > that should have been done, but never has. Now that bitsavers has a > reasonable collection > of technical/programming manuals, it might even be possible. > > http://quadibloc.com/comp/cpint.htm > > has some information, but it isn't really in any sort of tabular form. > Blaauw and Brooks also has a lot of the required data, not sure if it has a table. There's a copy on ebay right now http://ur1.ca/nipwp --Toby > AFAIK, the PDP-1 was the only DEC 1's compliment machine that shipped. > > I had also heard that 1's compliment never caught on in short word length > machines because of the difficulty dealing with multi-word arithmetic. > > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Aug 22 17:36:54 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 17:36:54 -0500 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D8F986.2060502@pico-systems.com> On 08/22/2015 02:41 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Thanks. Really, such mistakes aren't too demoralizing if > one can get the parts, get them in a reasonable amount of > time, at a reasonable price, and have the skill to do the fix One of the biggest oopses I ever had was I got a Memorex 10 MB hard drive with SASI controller for my S-100 /CP/M system. I had just gotten it very roughly working, when I was fiddling with something and the SASI controller touched the drive and there were sparks. I did the finger test first, and replaced all chips that were sizzling hot. Then, I went through, looking for bad logic levels, and replaced the chips driving those signals. Then, when I still had bad logic levels, I replaced the chips receiving those signals. All the time I was worred that it might have popped one or more of the microcode ROMS. Well, after some more replacing, it finally came back up, and the CP/M OS I had on the drive still worked! I guess I've had a few more cases where something went poof, but that is one of the ones I still remember well. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Aug 22 17:39:49 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 18:39:49 -0400 Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement In-Reply-To: <55D8EE7E.1000703@bitsavers.org> References: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> <55D8EE7E.1000703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Aug 22, 2015, at 5:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 8/22/15 2:23 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >> >> For my own morbid curiosity, and because it came up on another mailing >> list I'm on [1], what machines commercially avaialble were sign magnitude >> and one's complement? > > A table of what computers had what numeric representation is one of those things > that should have been done, but never has. Now that bitsavers has a reasonable collection > of technical/programming manuals, it might even be possible. > > http://quadibloc.com/comp/cpint.htm > > has some information, but it isn't really in any sort of tabular form. Some comments on that data. There are a bunch of one's complement machines. CDC 6000 series has already been mentioned. Electrological EL-X1 and EL-X8 are another example. Both the CDC and the EL-X8 have another interesting property: the floating point format is one's complement, and the mantissa is an integer rather than a fraction. F.E.K Kruseman Aretz in his paper on the EL-X8 floating point implementation calls this "Grau representation" (A.A. Grau. On a floating?point representation for use with algorithmic languages. Comm. ACM 5 (1962) 160.). One's complement in the sense that negating a float was done exactly like negating an int: by complementing it. And in the EL-X8 the exponent field was a one's complement integer also (unlike CDC where is's an excess-02000 value). One interesting property of one's complement machines is whether they "prefer +0" or "prefer -0". If you use an adder, then x+(-x) produces -0 -- the only way to get +0 is as the result of 0+0. Cray apparently didn't like that, so the CDC 6000 series use a subtractor, so add is done as a-(-b). If you do that, then you get "prefer +0" -- x + (-x) is +0 if x is non-zero, and the only way to get a -0 result is to start with a -0 input. But EL-X8 is "prefer -0". I don't know about other one's complement machines. > AFAIK, the PDP-1 was the only DEC 1's compliment machine that shipped. > > I had also heard that 1's compliment never caught on in short word length > machines because of the difficulty dealing with multi-word arithmetic. Interesting point. Not true for the CDC 6000 series PPUs because they had an 18 bit accumulator, so a 24 bit add (which was fairly common) would look like: ldm foo adm bar stm result shn -12 shift carry into lower bits adm foo+1 adm bar+1 stm result+1 As for sign/magnitude, there's the IBM 1620. Not binary, but sign/magnitude decimal. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Aug 22 17:42:14 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 17:42:14 -0500 Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement In-Reply-To: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> References: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <55D8FAC6.5070505@pico-systems.com> On 08/22/2015 04:23 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > For my own morbid curiosity, and because it came up on another mailing > list I'm on [1], what machines commercially avaialble were sign magnitude > and one's complement? Every machine I've encountered was two's complement > (okay, IEEE 754 [2] is a sign magnitude format but I'm talking about integer > implementations here, not floating point). I've only found reference to one > sign magnitude computer (the IBM 7090, release in 1959) and a few one's > complement machines (mostly the PDP series from DEC). > > The LINC (Laboratory INstrument Computer) was one's complement, with a 12-bit word. Several derivative machines were the same. The most confusing, of course, were the LINC-8 and PDP-12, which had the PDP-8 instruction set with two's complement, and the LINC instruction set, with one's complement, all in the SAME machine. SHEESH! Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Aug 22 17:43:44 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 17:43:44 -0500 Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement In-Reply-To: <55D8EE7E.1000703@bitsavers.org> References: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> <55D8EE7E.1000703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55D8FB20.2090604@pico-systems.com> On 08/22/2015 04:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/22/15 2:23 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >> >> For my own morbid curiosity, and because it came up on >> another mailing >> list I'm on [1], what machines commercially avaialble >> were sign magnitude >> and one's complement? > > A table of what computers had what numeric representation > is one of those things > that should have been done, but never has. Now that > bitsavers has a reasonable collection > of technical/programming manuals, it might even be possible. > > http://quadibloc.com/comp/cpint.htm > > has some information, but it isn't really in any sort of > tabular form. > > AFAIK, the PDP-1 was the only DEC 1's compliment machine > that shipped. > The LINC part of the LINC-8 and PDP-12 were one's complement. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 22 17:27:11 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 15:27:11 -0700 Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement In-Reply-To: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> References: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <55D8F73F.9070504@sydex.com> On 08/22/2015 02:23 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > For my own morbid curiosity, and because it came up on another > mailing list I'm on [1], what machines commercially avaialble were > sign magnitude and one's complement? Every machine I've encountered > was two's complement (okay, IEEE 754 [2] is a sign magnitude format > but I'm talking about integer implementations here, not floating > point). I've only found reference to one sign magnitude computer > (the IBM 7090, release in 1959) and a few one's complement machines > (mostly the PDP series from DEC). > > Where there others? And honestly, are there any machines that use > anything other than two's complement today? There were, as noted, several ones complement systems. Every decimal computer that I can think of, or ones, at least that have a decimal instruction vocabulary are sign-magnitude. That is, a negative one is represented as -1 in some form, not in its nine's or ten's complement. For another pure binary sign-magnitude system, consider one of the first minicomputers (although the term hadn't been then invented)--the Packard Bell PB 250. I'm pretty certain there were several others. Floating point can engender some interesting representations. Consider the exponent field on the aforementioned CDC 6000 series. It's a "biased by 2000 octal) system--and the assumed binary point of the mantissa is to the right of the LSB. So, 2000 0000 0000 0000 0001 octal = 1 exactly. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Aug 22 17:58:46 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 18:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VT100 preventative maintenance? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <201508222258.SAA11289@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Also note that we use the term 'valve' for diodes, triodes, etc, but > 'tube' for CRTs, nixie tubes, dekatrons, voltage stabilisers, > probably trochotrons, etc. There seems to be no obvious reason for > what is a 'valve' and what is a 'tube'. Based on your examples, it sounds to me as though a "valve" is a vacuum device whose major purpose is to control current flowing elsewhere in its circuit, whereas a "tube" is anything else - a CRT's major purpose is display, with the current flow incidental to that; Nixies, dekatrons, and voltage stabilizers are cold-cathode gas-filled devices. A trochotron...that's an interesting case. On the above (speculative) basis I could argue for either "valve" or "tube". Incidentally, thank you for mentioning trochotrons. I was not previously aware of them, and now that I've read up on them a tiny bit I'm glad I have. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Aug 22 18:40:37 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 19:40:37 -0400 Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement In-Reply-To: <55D8F73F.9070504@sydex.com> References: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> <55D8F73F.9070504@sydex.com> Message-ID: <40476C07-B956-4F93-B1F0-04E071EEE2E2@comcast.net> > On Aug 22, 2015, at 6:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ...FLoating point can engender some interesting representations. Consider the exponent field on the aforementioned CDC 6000 series. It's a "biased by 2000 octal) system--and the assumed binary point of the mantissa is to the right of the LSB. So, 2000 0000 0000 0000 0001 octal = 1 exactly. EL-X8 doesn't use the bias, so the floating point representation of an integer under 2^39 is the same as the integer representation. And the rule for normalizing float values preserves that (normalization makes the exponent as close to zero as possible -- rather different than the usual rule). paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 18:49:42 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 16:49:42 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <011a01d0dc53$0681a3a0$1384eae0$@usc.edu> References: <011a01d0dc53$0681a3a0$1384eae0$@usc.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 22, 2015 1:08 AM, "Ali Fahimi" wrote: > > Hello All, > > Recently I came across a complete Pertec interface (card, manual, software, > and, cables) thanks to list-member Shaun. Of course what is the point of > having an interface if you have nothing to interface it to! What controller did you get? Did you get original installation media for the software? I have some Computer Logics PCTD-16 controllers. One came installed in a PC with some Chi DOS software for it on the the hard drive and manuals but no installation floppies. I can just copy the installed software directory to a different PC to move the controller but it would be nice to have a copy of the original installation floppies to be able to do a clean standard installation. From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 19:33:49 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 17:33:49 -0700 Subject: 5.25 floppies that read but don't write In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D21806CC46F40EA8F3C0C0404D4B937@workshop> > Do we know the make/model of this drive? It's a Chinon FR-506 (NOT an FZ-506) >On 5.25" HD drives, pin 2 is generally a drive *input*. That is, the >host telegraphs what's needed, not the drive. Indeed, you have to be careful to put the right media and issue the proper density specific format command yourself, unless you work at the default of the drive, which in this case is HD. But I did, and I double checked the computer was outputting the right density signal on pin 2 on format and on write. Unfortunately the drive didn't respond correctly for writes in any settings I tried (auto or fixed density). On reading, from what I saw, the computer (at least mine) just tries both densities a couple times until it can read something. If there is some good data it declares success and keeps the pin 2 at the level that works for the rest of the session. There the news was better, the drive responded correctly to the pin 2 when it was set in auto, but incorrectly when it was in fixed HD (reading only in DD instead). So I left it in auto. At this point I'll declare this drive non functional, though still OK as a dual density, read-only drive... And look for a better HD one. My other 5.25" 360k DD 48tpi/300RPM drives read and write OK, so I have a working solution at low density. I want to recreate LIF drives for HP's, writing DD is what I need most anyhow. Thanks for the help, you pointed me in the right direction each time. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 22 20:15:38 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 18:15:38 -0700 Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement In-Reply-To: <40476C07-B956-4F93-B1F0-04E071EEE2E2@comcast.net> References: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> <55D8F73F.9070504@sydex.com> <40476C07-B956-4F93-B1F0-04E071EEE2E2@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55D91EBA.3020901@sydex.com> On 08/22/2015 04:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Aug 22, 2015, at 6:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> ...FLoating point can engender some interesting representations. >> Consider the exponent field on the aforementioned CDC 6000 series. >> It's a "biased by 2000 octal) system--and the assumed binary point >> of the mantissa is to the right of the LSB. So, 2000 0000 0000 >> 0000 0001 octal = 1 exactly. > > EL-X8 doesn't use the bias, so the floating point representation of > an integer under 2^39 is the same as the integer representation. And > the rule for normalizing float values preserves that (normalization > makes the exponent as close to zero as possible -- rather different > than the usual rule). I recall the "integer multiply" feature (i.e. optional) available on the 6000. IXi Xj*Xk, but it didn't provide any more precision than the usual unnormalized double-precision multiply DXi Xj*Xk, but saved some time spent fiddling with exponent fields. There was no corresponding Integer divide. So the integer adds would give the usual 60 bits of precision, while the integer multiply gave 48. On the other hand, the unnormalized integer mantissas could be very useful. One such is an integer divide by a constant. Good enough for small magnitude numbers. All of that went out the window on the STAR, however. A more traditional normalized two's complement format was used. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 22 20:22:16 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 20:22:16 -0500 Subject: Silent 785 docs? In-Reply-To: <002901d0dcf4$c03a6dd0$40af4970$@classiccmp.org> References: <002901d0dcf4$c03a6dd0$40af4970$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000c01d0dd42$26421770$72c64650$@classiccmp.org> I had written.... ---- Anyone have operators and/or service manual for the Silent 785? ---- Still looking for the manual, but... found a quick reference guide inside the unit. I had seen it before, but didn't see the note on the back at the bottom regarding configuration. Long story short, by default it uses the acoustic coupler rather than the db25 on the back. I'll record it here for posterity, since I don't see any docs on this unit online at all. The incantation is: CMD key, C for config mode and you get a question mark. You type your option followed by return. To exit config mode, hit enter to exit with report of saved config, or hit reset key to exit with no report. Note, enter and return are separate keys. The options which made it use the db25 on the back: Modem type: 111 = autoselect interface Method: 13 = 103/113/212/3400/full-duplex Speed: 21 = 110 22 = 200 23 = 300 24 = 600 25 = 1200 26 = 2400 28 = 9600 29 = 300/1200 Parity: 31 = odd, no check 32 = even, no check 35 = odd, check 36 = even, check 37 = mark no check 38 = space no check Best, J From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Aug 22 20:26:36 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 21:26:36 -0400 Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement In-Reply-To: <55D91EBA.3020901@sydex.com> References: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> <55D8F73F.9070504@sydex.com> <40476C07-B956-4F93-B1F0-04E071EEE2E2@comcast.net> <55D91EBA.3020901@sydex.com> Message-ID: <43AA3994-228E-4F1B-8915-90B95113C105@comcast.net> > On Aug 22, 2015, at 9:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 08/22/2015 04:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Aug 22, 2015, at 6:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>> ...FLoating point can engender some interesting representations. >>> Consider the exponent field on the aforementioned CDC 6000 series. >>> It's a "biased by 2000 octal) system--and the assumed binary point >>> of the mantissa is to the right of the LSB. So, 2000 0000 0000 >>> 0000 0001 octal = 1 exactly. >> >> EL-X8 doesn't use the bias, so the floating point representation of >> an integer under 2^39 is the same as the integer representation. And >> the rule for normalizing float values preserves that (normalization >> makes the exponent as close to zero as possible -- rather different >> than the usual rule). > > I recall the "integer multiply" feature (i.e. optional) available on the 6000. IXi Xj*Xk, but it didn't provide any more precision than the usual unnormalized double-precision multiply DXi Xj*Xk, but saved some time spent fiddling with exponent fields. ??? Never heard of any such thing. IXi Xj*Xk is a defined opcode, but it's simply a synonym for Dxi Xj*Xk. paul From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 22 20:31:46 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 18:31:46 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <55D8E644.9020406@bitsavers.org> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> <484598CB-9804-413D-A1C8-458F2B43F48E@cs.ubc.ca> <55D8AC4D.6090402@charter.net> <55D8C2BF.207@sydex.com> <55D8E644.9020406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55D92282.5020509@sydex.com> On 08/22/2015 02:14 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > No, I haven't the faintest idea where you would even find a copy today. I did find a reference to the CCVS suite of tests for sequential I/O: http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA019757 TOG lists the 1985 suite as the standard validation for COBOL, but the link goes to NCC and thence to a 404. One used to be able to get such stuff from the USDOC, but I doubt that they would know what you were talking about today. I suspect that there's a reel of tape somewhere with the damned things on it. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 20:33:31 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 18:33:31 -0700 Subject: Silent 785 docs? In-Reply-To: <002901d0dcf4$c03a6dd0$40af4970$@classiccmp.org> References: <002901d0dcf4$c03a6dd0$40af4970$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Jay West wrote: > I've got a TI Silent 785 I'm trying to get configured/running. Is that the one you rescued from somewhere in LA? Was wondering if you were able to successfully manage that. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 22 20:50:44 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 20:50:44 -0500 Subject: Silent 785 docs? In-Reply-To: References: <002901d0dcf4$c03a6dd0$40af4970$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000d01d0dd46$206eb5c0$614c2140$@classiccmp.org> Glen wrote... ----- Is that the one you rescued from somewhere in LA? Was wondering if you were able to successfully manage that. ----- Nope. That was an 800 series KSR. I still want that, but the business trip I was hoping to use to justify it never materialized. Still looking for someone in NO to pick up and ship, or at least hold for me. The 785 I have had for decades. I think it came out of a rescue I did with Guy in Oklahoma. J From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 22 21:31:32 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 19:31:32 -0700 Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement In-Reply-To: <43AA3994-228E-4F1B-8915-90B95113C105@comcast.net> References: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> <55D8F73F.9070504@sydex.com> <40476C07-B956-4F93-B1F0-04E071EEE2E2@comcast.net> <55D91EBA.3020901@sydex.com> <43AA3994-228E-4F1B-8915-90B95113C105@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55D93084.40209@sydex.com> On 08/22/2015 06:26 PM, Paul Koning wrote: than the usual rule). >> >> I recall the "integer multiply" feature (i.e. optional) available >> on the 6000. IXi Xj*Xk, but it didn't provide any more precision >> than the usual unnormalized double-precision multiply DXi Xj*Xk, >> but saved some time spent fiddling with exponent fields. > > ??? Never heard of any such thing. IXi Xj*Xk is a defined opcode, > but it's simply a synonym for Dxi Xj*Xk. Well, we were always the guinea pig for QSEs in SSD. It's not described in the Cyber 70 docs, but we had Cybers fitted with the option. It did make its way into the 170s however: In 60456100A, re: the 42 instruction (page 4-24, second column): "This instruction is used in multiple-precision floating-point calculations. This instruction also provides for integer multiplication capabilities where both operands have an exponent value of plus or minus zero and neither coefficient has been normalized. The integer result sent to Xi is *48 bits with a 60-bit sign extension* (emphasis mine)." A minor change that saved perhaps a few cycles. Another oddball thing was then then-new Cyber 72/73 CMU. An interesting beast, but not present on the 74. It was possible initially to write code with the 46xxx CMU instruction in first 2 parcels of an instruction word. All Cyber 73 CMU instructions were 60 bits, you could pack a call to a subroutine to do the equivalent thing in the lower 30 bits for the 74. Worked pretty cool until the 170. There, different models supported different subsets of CMU instructions (or not at all)--and attempting to execute one not implemented was greeted with an error stop. The 170 people really screwed that one up. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 23:23:26 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 23:23:26 -0500 Subject: (OT?) Copyright and IP In-Reply-To: <55D8676A.10407@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <55D8676A.10407@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: "This goes directly against how information behaves, which is to flow freely. " Information has neither preference nor intent, nor any other inherent behavioral characteristic(s). You could make a water or electricity analogy - but both of those are most often regulated, channeled, stored-up and rationed-out out as needed. As much as I find appeal in the notion that "Information wants to be free", information, per se, cannot want for anything at all. On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 7:13 AM, Alexis Kotlowy < thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org> wrote: > Hi List, > > This relates to the ongoing discussion about vintage computer software > copyright. > > A year or so ago I did some Beta videotape backups for the Australian > Computer Society. They're of keynote speeches at the 10th Australian > Computer Conference in 1983. One that I'd like to mention is by Tania > Amochev from (then) Control Data Corporation, titled Information > Services of the Future. > > In it, things we now call data mining and Google AdSense are discussed, > and the potential of data services in general (this is in 1983). One > thing that struck me was the contrast between traditional copyright of > material items, and how such ideas don't apply very well to non-material > information. > > I was left with the impression that the idea of "Intellectual Property" > is in some ways an attempt to force information to be treated like > materials, which is an easy way to put a value information, but also > allows it to be hoarded. This goes directly against how information > behaves, which is to flow freely. This free-flow of information allows > more information to be derived or generated, enhancing productivity and > overall knowledge. > > To quote: "Information is diffusive - it leaks. The more it leaks, the > more of it there is. Information is aggressive, even imperialistic. It > simply breaks out of its unnatural bonds, the bonds of secrecy in which > 'thing minded' people try to lock it. So secrecy, property rights, > confidentiality, all enshrined in Western thought and law, are not > particularly effective restraints on information." > > This is not a cry to abolish copyright and intellectual property laws, > but to highlight some of the inadequacies of the thought process behind > these laws when dealing with high speed, global information. > > Does anyone have any thoughts? If there was a massive shift in the > fundamental philosophy of how information should be valued, where would > you like that shift to go? For example, is there a way to pay > programmers and similar professions by the quality of their work, rather > than just the number of lines of code they write. How do you measure the > quality of information? > > I'll see if I can get permission to have the six keynote addresses put > online, because they're all fascinating. > > Cheers, > > Alexis. > > P.S., if this is way off topic, my apologies. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 22 23:44:50 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 04:44:50 +0000 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net>, Message-ID: > > The engineer said that it wasn't a problem because the highest voltage > on the backplane is 5V. The manager pointed out that the power supply > was rated for 600A, and undoubtedly could source more than that > briefly, and to think about what would happen to your finger if you > had hundreds of amps flowing through the ring. I have heard similar warnings about working on cars while wearing rings, or worse a wristwatch with a metal strap. A car battery can provide many hundreds of amps for a short period. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 22 23:53:51 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 04:53:51 +0000 Subject: VT100 preventative maintenance? In-Reply-To: <201508222258.SAA11289@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , , <201508222258.SAA11289@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > > Also note that we use the term 'valve' for diodes, triodes, etc, but > > 'tube' for CRTs, nixie tubes, dekatrons, voltage stabilisers, > > probably trochotrons, etc. There seems to be no obvious reason for > > what is a 'valve' and what is a 'tube'. > Based on your examples, it sounds to me as though a "valve" is a vacuum > device whose major purpose is to control current flowing elsewhere in > its circuit, whereas a "tube" is anything else - a CRT's major purpose Possibly. But diodes are normally called 'valves' over here, in fact I think the term 'valve' came from the fact that a diode acts like the one-way valve, say on a tyre. And not necessarily vacuum devices. Thyratrons (gas filled triodes) are 'valves'. So is the infernal 0Z4 :-). But not voltage stabilisers. I am trying to think what we call tuning indicators -- magic eyes and the like. Probably valves (even though they don't control anything and are display devices). > is display, with the current flow incidental to that; Nixies, > dekatrons, and voltage stabilizers are cold-cathode gas-filled devices. > A trochotron...that's an interesting case. On the above (speculative) > basis I could argue for either "valve" or "tube". > Incidentally, thank you for mentioning trochotrons. I was not > previously aware of them, and now that I've read up on them a tiny bit > I'm glad I have. I wonder if they were ever used in early computers. Dekatrons were, both in the Harwell Dekatron machine, and in some Anita calculators. But I've only come across trochotrons in digital voltmeters and the like. -tony From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 23 00:23:35 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 22:23:35 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com> References: , , , , , , <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net>, , , , <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net>, , , , <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net>, , <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 08/21/2015 08:36 AM, dwight wrote: > > I was going to add something but it has already been said several > > times. I will add that if using a LED on an AC like signal of high > > voltage, one should use a diode. I recommend using a shunt diode > > rather than a series diode when high voltages are being dropped by > > the resistor. It reduces the need for a high voltage diode but makes > > the resistor hotter. Some red LEDs glow orange when not protected > > from 12VAC. You can ask how I know. Dwight > > Ever take a close look at a string of Christmas-tree LEDs? Most are > composed of a string of LEDs hooked directly across the AC line--no > rectifier diode to be found. > > Some seek to reduce the 60Hz flicker by employing two strings to > illuminate on both half-cycles, reducing the flicker somewhat. Since > my eyes react to the flicker (it's like ants crawling over the string), > I found that simply employing a full-wave bridge rectifier can reduce > the appearance of flicker tremendously. > > --Chuck I would think the reverse voltage sum of the diodes is enough. Different diodes also can handle different voltages. Since the sum of the forward voltages is enough to handle AC, I'd suspect the reverse voltages each would handle is quite small as well. The problem is when the current limiting is done with a resistor that in the forward direction drops a lot of voltage. The diode has to handle the voltage until breakdown when reversed. If the resistor was handling 1 Watts, with the right break down, the LED could be taking .5 Watts. This is more than most are designed for. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 23 01:17:52 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 23:17:52 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net>, , , , <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net>, , , , <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net>, , <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D96590.8070009@sydex.com> On 08/22/2015 10:23 PM, dwight wrote: > I would think the reverse voltage sum of the diodes is enough. > Different diodes also can handle different voltages. Since the sum > of the forward voltages is enough to handle AC, I'd suspect the > reverse voltages each would handle is quite small as well. > The problem is when the current limiting is done with a resistor > that in the forward direction drops a lot of voltage. > The diode has to handle the voltage until breakdown when reversed. > If the resistor was handling 1 Watts, with the right break down, > the LED could be taking .5 Watts. This is more than most are designed > for. ...and that's just the nub of it. The success of this depends largely on the consistent characteristics of every LED in the string. Since LEDs tend to fail short if submitted to overvoltage, I've often wondered if a spike in the AC supply would precipitate a cascade failure in the string. I've looked hard and there are no rectifier diodes in the string--just the LEDs themselves. Probably saves about 5 cents or so of manufacturing cost. I've also seen LED "night lights" from China that employ nothing more than a safety capacitor (usually about 104) in series with a resistor connected to two back-to-back LEDs, all across the AC line. I've wondered what the lifetime of such a setup is. --Chuck. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 22 15:29:09 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 20:29:09 +0000 Subject: VT100 preventative maintenance? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > ... > > [1] In the UK we call all CRT elecrodes after the control grid (first grid) 'anodes' which > > makes sense as they are run +ve wrt the cathode. > > So does a UK tetrode have one grid and two anodes? Or is there one terminology for > CRTs and a different one for other tubes? The second. A Tetrode over here has 2 grids (control grid and screen grid [1]) and one anode. A pentode has 3 grids (control, screen, supressor) [1] An old name for a tetrode or pentode over here is a 'Screen grid valve' Some early valves had type codes which clearly came from this For example there was a 'AC/SG' which was an indirectly heated (the 'AC' part, meaning the heater could run on AC) tetrode (the 'SG' part). I have an old Cossor MVS/PEN valve. That stands for 'Metalised' (meaning there is a conductive coating on the outside of the glass envelope for shielding), Variable Mu (non-linear, so amplification depends on grid bias) Screengrid (a tetrode or pentode) and the 'PEN' part means it really is a Pentode. Also note that we use the term 'valve' for diodes, triodes, etc, but 'tube' for CRTs, nixie tubes, dekatrons, voltage stabilisers, probably trochotrons, etc. There seems to be no obvious reason for what is a 'valve' and what is a 'tube'. -tony paul From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 22 18:06:54 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 18:06:54 -0500 Subject: Reversed Electrolytics redux In-Reply-To: <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> Message-ID: <55D9008E.8020206@charter.net> On 8/22/2015 2:41 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > Unfortunately, bearings did not help the floppy drive, so now I am busy > taking the floppy power supply I got with my FD 100-8, making sure it is > up to spec to use with the Shugart (and correcting that if needs be), > and making it safer (mains fuse, switch) and more fault tolerant (fuse > in the 24V line, at least) and making sure all of the mains connected > innards are not exposed. Just about done with that. The +24V and -7 to > -16V are in spec, but the +5V (which, curiously for a 1A supply, does > NOT use a simple 3 terminal regulator) is a tad high, at 5.35V. I may > just change it to use a three terminal unit. > Well, just found another reversed electrolytic - but this time the original fault was not my own. I decided to trace out this floppy supply I have had for decades (back in my original Altair days), that I got from the same guy from whom I purchased my Siemens FDD 100-8, and discovered that the electrolytic on the unregulated -7 to -16 V was reversed - installed BACKWARDS. That capacitor is now in "reform school". ;) Also, I now know why the +5 V is high. It has a UA 7805 3 terminal regulator serving as a voltage reference for a TIP-3055 so the supply can provide more current. That 7805 has a forward biased diode between the center terminal and ground, thus raising the output voltage by right around 0.5v. I expect I will leave it alone. The same design is used for the +24V, which comes out at 24.2V. So, odds are that this supply could drive two floppy drives. JRJ JRJ From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 18:19:37 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 00:19:37 +0100 Subject: Reversed Electrolytics redux In-Reply-To: <55D9008E.8020206@charter.net> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D9008E.8020206@charter.net> Message-ID: <098001d0dd31$04398980$0cac9c80$@gmail.com> > > Also, I now know why the +5 V is high. It has a UA 7805 3 terminal regulator > serving as a voltage reference for a TIP-3055 so the supply can provide more > current. That 7805 has a forward biased diode between the center terminal > and ground, thus raising the output voltage by right around 0.5v. I expect I > will leave it alone. When used as series pass transistor the TIP-3055 will usually drop 0.6v across the emitter under any significant load. Adding a silicon diode in the 7805 base is the normal fix... http://www.bristolwatch.com/ele/basic_power_supplies.htm > > The same design is used for the +24V, which comes out at 24.2V. > > So, odds are that this supply could drive two floppy drives. > > JRJ > > > JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 22 19:45:45 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 19:45:45 -0500 Subject: Reversed Electrolytics redux In-Reply-To: <098001d0dd31$04398980$0cac9c80$@gmail.com> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D9008E.8020206@charter.net> <098001d0dd31$04398980$0cac9c80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55D917B9.8080705@charter.net> I figured as much. And, with a 10K ohm bleeder resistor that I added on the output (another added safety feature), the voltage dropped down to 5.2 and change - within spec. JRJ On 8/22/2015 6:19 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: >> >> Also, I now know why the +5 V is high. It has a UA 7805 3 terminal > regulator >> serving as a voltage reference for a TIP-3055 so the supply can provide > more >> current. That 7805 has a forward biased diode between the center terminal >> and ground, thus raising the output voltage by right around 0.5v. I > expect I >> will leave it alone. > > > When used as series pass transistor the TIP-3055 will usually drop 0.6v > across the emitter under any significant load. Adding a silicon diode in the > 7805 base is the normal fix... > > http://www.bristolwatch.com/ele/basic_power_supplies.htm > >> >> The same design is used for the +24V, which comes out at 24.2V. >> >> So, odds are that this supply could drive two floppy drives. >> >> JRJ >> >> >> JRJ > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 01:50:49 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 01:50:49 -0500 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 11:44 PM, tony duell wrote: > > I have heard similar warnings about working on cars while wearing > rings, or worse a wristwatch with a metal strap. A car battery can provide > many hundreds of amps for a short period. > > My cousin (who is a seasoned vehicle tech) once made the "car battery positive to fenderwell via wristwatch" mistake. He said the band went almost white hot before he was able to a) realize it and b) break away. Second and third-degree to his wrist. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 01:55:29 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 01:55:29 -0500 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: <55D96590.8070009@sydex.com> References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net> <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com> <55D96590.8070009@sydex.com> Message-ID: I've also seen C-R series voltage dropping circuits, here & there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the series cap dissipate power just as it would, were it a series resistor? I mean, if the LED is passing 20mA, the cap is also doing 20mA - and at whatever the Vdrop is. Right? If not, why? On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 1:17 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/22/2015 10:23 PM, dwight wrote: > > I would think the reverse voltage sum of the diodes is enough. >> Different diodes also can handle different voltages. Since the sum >> of the forward voltages is enough to handle AC, I'd suspect the >> reverse voltages each would handle is quite small as well. >> The problem is when the current limiting is done with a resistor >> that in the forward direction drops a lot of voltage. >> The diode has to handle the voltage until breakdown when reversed. >> If the resistor was handling 1 Watts, with the right break down, >> the LED could be taking .5 Watts. This is more than most are designed >> for. >> > > ...and that's just the nub of it. The success of this depends largely on > the consistent characteristics of every LED in the string. Since LEDs tend > to fail short if submitted to overvoltage, I've often wondered if a spike > in the AC supply would precipitate a cascade failure in the string. I've > looked hard and there are no rectifier diodes in the string--just the LEDs > themselves. Probably saves about 5 cents or so of manufacturing cost. > > I've also seen LED "night lights" from China that employ nothing more than > a safety capacitor (usually about 104) in series with a resistor connected > to two back-to-back LEDs, all across the AC line. > > I've wondered what the lifetime of such a setup is. > > --Chuck. > From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 03:28:35 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 03:28:35 -0500 Subject: Osborne O1 Keyboard issues Message-ID: Howdy gents, Working away on the recently acquired Osborne 1. Seems there's something wrong with the KB - and if I didn't know better, I'd say it's a case of shorted contacts. The KB connector is 24 pins, double row header like a short floppy or IDE header. On the KB side, there are two "shorted" groups of pins. Group one is 2X shortred pins, group two is 5X shorted pins. Thing is, this KB is not really built to be serviced, best as I can tell. The switch matrix is made of two layered flexible circuits, and the key assys are 'riveted' in place, by melting over the plastic pins. So I see no way to disassemble it and give it a clean.. and then, even so. With such limited access, I don't see many avenues other than flushing with solvent(s) and hoping for the best. What's to be done? Is this one.. done already? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 23 04:06:40 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 02:06:40 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net> <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com> <55D96590.8070009@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2015-Aug-22, at 11:55 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 1:17 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 08/22/2015 10:23 PM, dwight wrote: >> >> I would think the reverse voltage sum of the diodes is enough. >>> Different diodes also can handle different voltages. Since the sum >>> of the forward voltages is enough to handle AC, I'd suspect the >>> reverse voltages each would handle is quite small as well. >>> The problem is when the current limiting is done with a resistor >>> that in the forward direction drops a lot of voltage. >>> The diode has to handle the voltage until breakdown when reversed. >>> If the resistor was handling 1 Watts, with the right break down, >>> the LED could be taking .5 Watts. This is more than most are designed >>> for. >> >> ...and that's just the nub of it. The success of this depends largely on >> the consistent characteristics of every LED in the string. Since LEDs tend >> to fail short if submitted to overvoltage, I've often wondered if a spike >> in the AC supply would precipitate a cascade failure in the string. I've >> looked hard and there are no rectifier diodes in the string--just the LEDs >> themselves. Probably saves about 5 cents or so of manufacturing cost. >> >> I've also seen LED "night lights" from China that employ nothing more than >> a safety capacitor (usually about 104) in series with a resistor connected >> to two back-to-back LEDs, all across the AC line. >> >> I've wondered what the lifetime of such a setup is. >> >> --Chuck. >> > I've also seen C-R series voltage dropping circuits, here & there. > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the series cap dissipate power just as > it would, were it a series resistor? I mean, if the LED is passing 20mA, > the cap is also doing 20mA - and at whatever the Vdrop is. > > Right? If not, why? I doubt if any brief explanation here is going to the topic justice. Look up power factor or reactive power. FWIW: The impedance (capacitive reactance, Z=Xc=1/(2*pi*f*C) of the C does produce the desired voltage drop but the C also shifts the phase of the current relative to that of the V. To apply the power equation P=VI properly, you can't just multiply the RMS values together, you multiply the instantaneous values of the V & I sine waves together through a cycle. You get a third sine wave, that for power. If V & I are in phase, the power sine wave will all be in the positive region and is real power consumption. When they are out of phase, some portion of the power sine wave will be negative: a portion of the energy the C sucked down the line is being returned during each cycle. Yes, it does reduce energy consumption relative to a purely R solution. On a large scale, the power company doesn't like it because it unnecessarily adds to the currents circulating in the system, but then, this is from C which shifts the current in one direction, so it's doing some compensation for the inductive wall warts you have plugged in around the house, which as L shift the current in the other direction. From jws at jwsss.com Sun Aug 23 04:29:52 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 02:29:52 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <55D92282.5020509@sydex.com> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> <484598CB-9804-413D-A1C8-458F2B43F48E@cs.ubc.ca> <55D8AC4D.6090402@charter.net> <55D8C2BF.207@sydex.com> <55D8E644.9020406@bitsavers.org> <55D92282.5020509@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D99290.9000900@jwsss.com> There was an outfit here in Orange County, Ca that was a den of oddballs who actually like to write compilers and were good at that was called CSPI. In the 78-79 timeframe, Microdata bought a compiler for Cobol and Fortran from them with a really big check and helped them along the path of becoming a viable company. They then had a fellow as a contracter, Mas Okano, who also contracted for Olivetti for a long time and for CSPI maintain it as the Express system was sold to Olivetti and transferring into one of their main systems. I think Mas was there till the mid 90s, but CSPI went out of the picture. Anyway, one of the things that Express was competing with were DEC systems and they benchmarked both the Fortran and the Cobol and outran DEC. Express was still a miserable failure for them, and they of course only made the one system design and never enhanced it. Someone with better knowledge about DEC can guess the 11 and OS. Anyway another thing they had to do was pass this test, and I suspect it is the one that Chuck refers to. CSPI was bought up by or morphed into one of the outfits which sold Cobol compilers for the PC, but I don't know which one. If one looks on bitsavers at the front of the Microdata Express Cobol internal spec, it was prepared by CSPI, California Software Products, Inc. Unfortunatly, it is really just the compiler spec, and doesn't have what I know were in other documents, the requirements for the spec. It is a good writeup of the internals of a compiler if anyone is interested. I believe both Fortran and Cobol used the technique of compiling to the intermediate target MOM then on to machine code, enabling them to sell the compiler to other vendors. Microdata paid for the first one though in 79 I also think they had the tests and ran them for Microdata and submitted the results as the tests were very involved. thanks Jim On 8/22/2015 6:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/22/2015 02:14 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> >> No, I haven't the faintest idea where you would even find a copy today. > > I did find a reference to the CCVS suite of tests for sequential I/O: > > http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA019757 > > > TOG lists the 1985 suite as the standard validation for COBOL, but the > link goes to NCC and thence to a 404. > > One used to be able to get such stuff from the USDOC, but I doubt that > they would know what you were talking about today. > > I suspect that there's a reel of tape somewhere with the damned things > on it. > > --Chuck > > > > From tingox at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 04:37:32 2015 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 11:37:32 +0200 Subject: Silent 785 docs? In-Reply-To: <000d01d0dd46$206eb5c0$614c2140$@classiccmp.org> References: <002901d0dcf4$c03a6dd0$40af4970$@classiccmp.org> <000d01d0dd46$206eb5c0$614c2140$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 3:50 AM, Jay West wrote: > Glen wrote... > ----- > Is that the one you rescued from somewhere in LA? Was wondering if you were able to successfully manage that. > ----- > Nope. That was an 800 series KSR. I still want that, but the business trip I was hoping to use to justify it never materialized. Still looking for someone in NO to pick up and ship, or at least hold for me. > > The 785 I have had for decades. I think it came out of a rescue I did with Guy in Oklahoma. It doesn't look like the Terminals wiki have any info on the 785: http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Category:TI Perhaps you could create one? -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 23 09:10:33 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 07:10:33 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: , , , <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net>, , <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net>, , <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net>, <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com>, <55D96590.8070009@sydex.com>, , Message-ID: I've used the capacitor method to provide most of the drop in the past. I don't usually max out the LEDs at 20ma. I find there is little difference between 10 and 20ma. Yes, the 10 ( or 20ma ) is current flow through the capacitor. It is necessary to have some resistor in series as well to suppress line spikes. You do have to be careful about mounting the LED packages, as they are not rated for line voltage. That is, if you are expecting a UL rating. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 23 09:32:55 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:32:55 +0000 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net> <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com> <55D96590.8070009@sydex.com>, Message-ID: > > I've also seen C-R series voltage dropping circuits, here & there. > Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the series cap dissipate power just as > it would, were it a series resistor? I mean, if the LED is passing 20mA, > the cap is also doing 20mA - and at whatever the Vdrop is. > > Right? If not, why? Yes, the capacitor passes 20mA. But unlike a resistor the voltage drop across a capacitor is not in phase with the current. For a pure capacitor, it is out of phase by 90 degrees. For a pure inductor, BTW, it is 90 degrees out in the oposite direction. Now, if you consider the power at any instant, it is, indeed the product of the voltage and current at that instant. For a resistor, this is alwas positive, so if you add up all the instantaneous powers over a full cycle (mathematically, this is integration, of cource), the total power consumed is positive. But for a capacitor, sometimes the instantaneous power is negative, in effect the capacitor is supplying energy back to the circuit. And if you integrate that over a full cycle, you end up with zero. Intuitively : With a resistor, voltage and current are either both positive or both negative, so the product is positive. With a capacitor, due to that phase shift, there are 4 regions to consider : V +ve., I +ve; V +ve, I -ve; V -ve, I -ve; V -ve, I+ve. The first and third of those give a +ve power, the second and fourth a -ve power and they exactly cancel out. It turns out that the power in an AC circuit can be calcualted as the product of the RMS voltage, RMS current and the cosine of the phase angle between them. The RMS values are the ones normally quotes (115V mains had an RMS value of 115V). The cosine(phase) term is known as the 'power factor', and is probably the thing to look up in a book on AC electric circuits. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 23 10:56:52 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 08:56:52 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net> <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com> <55D96590.8070009@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D9ED44.7040402@sydex.com> On 08/22/2015 11:55 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > I've also seen C-R series voltage dropping circuits, here & there. > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the series cap dissipate power > just as it would, were it a series resistor? I mean, if the LED is > passing 20mA, the cap is also doing 20mA - and at whatever the Vdrop > is. > > Right? If not, why? That's correct--but there's the matter of the voltage. Eventually, you'll see that the brightness of the LEDs will drop fairly rapidly before the thing is useless. A common dodge used by Chinese manufacturers. Saves a few components, doesn't it. --Chuck From dave at willomail.co.uk Sun Aug 23 11:02:12 2015 From: dave at willomail.co.uk (David Williams) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 17:02:12 +0100 Subject: Osborne O1 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D9EE84.4090707@willomail.co.uk> On 23/08/2015 09:28, drlegendre . wrote: > Howdy gents, > > Working away on the recently acquired Osborne 1. Seems there's something > wrong with the KB - and if I didn't know better, I'd say it's a case of > shorted contacts. > > The KB connector is 24 pins, double row header like a short floppy or IDE > header. > > On the KB side, there are two "shorted" groups of pins. Group one is 2X > shortred pins, group two is 5X shorted pins. > > Thing is, this KB is not really built to be serviced, best as I can tell. > The switch matrix is made of two layered flexible circuits, and the key > assys are 'riveted' in place, by melting over the plastic pins. So I see no > way to disassemble it and give it a clean.. and then, even so. > > With such limited access, I don't see many avenues other than flushing with > solvent(s) and hoping for the best. > > What's to be done? Is this one.. done already? I had a similar issue on a Osborne a couple of weeks ago. I ended up using a sharp knife to cut the melted pins on the rear of the keyboard to remove the switches. Lifted the membrane and cleaned it before refitting. To re-attach the switches, I used some super glue on the back were each pin is and used a hot glue gun on the front in between each switch. Whole process took about an hour but has been working fine since. I think this is caused by the cable constantly pressing down on the keys when the keyboard is clipped to the front of the machine. On an Osborne I repaired last year, just removing the the keyboard assembly and giving a bit of a flex was enought to release the stuck key. Cheers, Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 23 11:06:48 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 09:06:48 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: , , , <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net>, , <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net>, , <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net>, <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com>, <55D96590.8070009@sydex.com>, , Message-ID: <55D9EF98.9080808@sydex.com> On 08/23/2015 07:10 AM, dwight wrote: > I've used the capacitor method to provide most of the drop in the > past. I don't usually max out the LEDs at 20ma. I find there is > little difference between 10 and 20ma. Yes, the 10 ( or 20ma ) is > current flow through the capacitor. It is necessary to have some > resistor in series as well to suppress line spikes. Another similar dirty trick back in the day was to run a 6SL7 dual-triode form the line using a 1.0 uF nonpolar capacitor in series with the line to provide a supply for the 500 ma 6.3 v heater and then use one of the triode sections as a half-wave rectifier. You thus had the other triode section for whatever stupid purpose. Of course, this was horrible abuse of the tube, particularly in the area of heater-cathode voltage ratings. It probably wouldn't work as well in 220VAC countries, but it worked well enough in the 120VAC ones. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 23 11:22:47 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 09:22:47 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <55D99290.9000900@jwsss.com> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> <484598CB-9804-413D-A1C8-458F2B43F48E@cs.ubc.ca> <55D8AC4D.6090402@charter.net> <55D8C2BF.207@sydex.com> <55D8E644.9020406@bitsavers.org> <55D92282.5020509@sydex.com> <55D99290.9000900@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <55D9F357.1080802@sydex.com> On 08/23/2015 02:29 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > There was an outfit here in Orange County, Ca that was a den of > oddballs who actually like to write compilers and were good at that > was called CSPI. In the 78-79 timeframe, Microdata bought a compiler > for Cobol and Fortran from them with a really big check and helped > them along the path of becoming a viable company. I do remember CSPI. > Anyway, one of the things that Express was competing with were DEC > systems and they benchmarked both the Fortran and the Cobol and > outran DEC. Express was still a miserable failure for them, and they > of course only made the one system design and never enhanced it. > Someone with better knowledge about DEC can guess the 11 and OS. > > Anyway another thing they had to do was pass this test, and I suspect > it is the one that Chuck refers to. If you were selling to the USG, it was definitely in your interest to pass the Naval COBOL Auditing tests. Grace Hopper was largely responsible for their development and it stems from a morass of vendor "extensions and features" and the individual interpretations of the CODASYL standard that could render compilers different as night and day. It was apparent that some sort of test of conformity to the standard was necessary. FORTRAN suffered from the same problem also. In particular, I recall a CDC extension that seemed innocent but resulted in ambiguous syntax--a definite no-no in the world of languages. The PSR was never solved, as it would have required a change in an existing language. Note that these tests are not benchmarks--they merely serve to make sure that the compiler and run-time actually do what they're supposed to--and not what somebody *thinks* they should do. So these tests are historically important. > CSPI was bought up by or morphed into one of the outfits which sold > Cobol compilers for the PC, but I don't know which one. If one looks > on bitsavers at the front of the Microdata Express Cobol internal > spec, it was prepared by CSPI, California Software Products, Inc. I think all major compiler producers had specifications of that nature--they were also written for operating systems. Paper first, code later... --Chuck From fti1983 at xmission.com Sun Aug 23 11:54:26 2015 From: fti1983 at xmission.com (Steve Moulding) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 10:54:26 -0600 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net> <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com> <55D96590.8070009@sydex.com> Message-ID: <003501d0ddc4$600fef90$202fceb0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2015 3:07 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? On 2015-Aug-22, at 11:55 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 1:17 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 08/22/2015 10:23 PM, dwight wrote: >> >> I would think the reverse voltage sum of the diodes is enough. >>> Different diodes also can handle different voltages. Since the sum >>> of the forward voltages is enough to handle AC, I'd suspect the >>> reverse voltages each would handle is quite small as well. >>> The problem is when the current limiting is done with a resistor >>> that in the forward direction drops a lot of voltage. >>> The diode has to handle the voltage until breakdown when reversed. >>> If the resistor was handling 1 Watts, with the right break down, the >>> LED could be taking .5 Watts. This is more than most are designed >>> for. >> >> ...and that's just the nub of it. The success of this depends >> largely on the consistent characteristics of every LED in the string. >> Since LEDs tend to fail short if submitted to overvoltage, I've often >> wondered if a spike in the AC supply would precipitate a cascade >> failure in the string. I've looked hard and there are no rectifier >> diodes in the string--just the LEDs themselves. Probably saves about 5 cents or so of manufacturing cost. >> >> I've also seen LED "night lights" from China that employ nothing more >> than a safety capacitor (usually about 104) in series with a resistor >> connected to two back-to-back LEDs, all across the AC line. >> >> I've wondered what the lifetime of such a setup is. >> >> --Chuck. >> > I've also seen C-R series voltage dropping circuits, here & there. > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the series cap dissipate power > just as it would, were it a series resistor? I mean, if the LED is > passing 20mA, the cap is also doing 20mA - and at whatever the Vdrop is. > > Right? If not, why? I doubt if any brief explanation here is going to the topic justice. Look up power factor or reactive power. FWIW: The impedance (capacitive reactance, Z=Xc=1/(2*pi*f*C) of the C does produce the desired voltage drop but the C also shifts the phase of the current relative to that of the V. To apply the power equation P=VI properly, you can't just multiply the RMS values together, you multiply the instantaneous values of the V & I sine waves together through a cycle. You get a third sine wave, that for power. If V & I are in phase, the power sine wave will all be in the positive region and is real power consumption. When they are out of phase, some portion of the power sine wave will be negative: a portion of the energy the C sucked down the line is being returned during each cycle. Yes, it does reduce energy consumption relative to a purely R solution. On a large scale, the power company doesn't like it because it unnecessarily adds to the currents circulating in the system, but then, this is from C which shifts the current in one direction, so it's doing some compensation for the inductive wall warts you have plugged in around the house, which as L shift the current in the other direction. ----------------------- Brent, that is an excellent explanation in just a few sentences. One quibble however. The power company does indeed like components that shift the current in the capacitive direction. Taken as a whole for the power grid, the power source sees the load as inductive because of all the industrial motors it powers, including the ones that exist in almost every home (washer, dryer, heating/air conditioning, mixer, disposal, etc.) Capacitor banks are frequently installed in large industrial operations to shift the inductive load more toward the capacitive power factor. This is because the power company, as you have implied, charges more for power that is current shifted away from zero %. I have even seen large motors installed in industrial situations that run continuously without load, because such motors appear as a capacitive load, and indeed are called 'rotary capacitors'. I recall one time when the CFO ordered such a motor turned off because "it is wasting power." It took a little plain and fancy instruction by the engineer to let him know that it was actually saving the company money. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 12:31:59 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 12:31:59 -0500 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: <003501d0ddc4$600fef90$202fceb0$@com> References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net> <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com> <55D96590.8070009@sydex.com> <003501d0ddc4$600fef90$202fceb0$@com> Message-ID: Heh, all you had to say was "power factor" and I've have understood. I suspected that was the case, but it seemed too easy.. Guess I'm too used to thinking in simple ohmic terms, with Watt & Kirchhoff always looming large. Something told me that, in the end, there was no way around dealing with the E^2/R heat - anything else seemed like a thermodynamic "cheat". On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 11:54 AM, Steve Moulding wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > Hilpert > Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2015 3:07 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? > > On 2015-Aug-22, at 11:55 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 1:17 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 08/22/2015 10:23 PM, dwight wrote: > >> > >> I would think the reverse voltage sum of the diodes is enough. > >>> Different diodes also can handle different voltages. Since the sum > >>> of the forward voltages is enough to handle AC, I'd suspect the > >>> reverse voltages each would handle is quite small as well. > >>> The problem is when the current limiting is done with a resistor > >>> that in the forward direction drops a lot of voltage. > >>> The diode has to handle the voltage until breakdown when reversed. > >>> If the resistor was handling 1 Watts, with the right break down, the > >>> LED could be taking .5 Watts. This is more than most are designed > >>> for. > >> > >> ...and that's just the nub of it. The success of this depends > >> largely on the consistent characteristics of every LED in the string. > >> Since LEDs tend to fail short if submitted to overvoltage, I've often > >> wondered if a spike in the AC supply would precipitate a cascade > >> failure in the string. I've looked hard and there are no rectifier > >> diodes in the string--just the LEDs themselves. Probably saves about 5 > cents or so of manufacturing cost. > >> > >> I've also seen LED "night lights" from China that employ nothing more > >> than a safety capacitor (usually about 104) in series with a resistor > >> connected to two back-to-back LEDs, all across the AC line. > >> > >> I've wondered what the lifetime of such a setup is. > >> > >> --Chuck. > >> > > I've also seen C-R series voltage dropping circuits, here & there. > > > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the series cap dissipate power > > just as it would, were it a series resistor? I mean, if the LED is > > passing 20mA, the cap is also doing 20mA - and at whatever the Vdrop is. > > > > Right? If not, why? > > I doubt if any brief explanation here is going to the topic justice. Look > up > power factor or reactive power. > FWIW: > > The impedance (capacitive reactance, Z=Xc=1/(2*pi*f*C) of the C does > produce > the desired voltage drop but the C also shifts the phase of the current > relative to that of the V. To apply the power equation P=VI properly, you > can't just multiply the RMS values together, you multiply the instantaneous > values of the V & I sine waves together through a cycle. You get a third > sine wave, that for power. If V & I are in phase, the power sine wave will > all be in the positive region and is real power consumption. When they are > out of phase, some portion of the power sine wave will be negative: a > portion of the energy the C sucked down the line is being returned during > each cycle. > > Yes, it does reduce energy consumption relative to a purely R solution. > > On a large scale, the power company doesn't like it because it > unnecessarily > adds to the currents circulating in the system, but then, this is from C > which shifts the current in one direction, so it's doing some compensation > for the inductive wall warts you have plugged in around the house, which as > L shift the current in the other direction. > > ----------------------- > > Brent, that is an excellent explanation in just a few sentences. One > quibble however. The power company does indeed like components that shift > the current in the capacitive direction. Taken as a whole for the power > grid, the power source sees the load as inductive because of all the > industrial motors it powers, including the ones that exist in almost every > home (washer, dryer, heating/air conditioning, mixer, disposal, etc.) > Capacitor banks are frequently installed in large industrial operations to > shift the inductive load more toward the capacitive power factor. This is > because the power company, as you have implied, charges more for power that > is current shifted away from zero %. I have even seen large motors > installed in industrial situations that run continuously without load, > because such motors appear as a capacitive load, and indeed are called > 'rotary capacitors'. I recall one time when the CFO ordered such a motor > turned off because "it is wasting power." It took a little plain and fancy > instruction by the engineer to let him know that it was actually saving the > company money. > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 23 12:46:36 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 17:46:36 +0000 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net> <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com> <55D96590.8070009@sydex.com> <003501d0ddc4$600fef90$202fceb0$@com>, Message-ID: > Guess I'm too used to thinking in simple ohmic terms, with Watt & Kirchhoff > always looming large. Something told me that, in the end, there was no way Well, Kirchhoff's laws do apply in AC circuits, but you have to be careful how you apply them, given that voltages and currents need not be in phase. > around dealing with the E^2/R heat - anything else seemed like a > thermodynamic "cheat". Not so. There are many ways of reducing a voltage without generating that much heat. For AC an obvious one is a transformer. Trivial example, if you had to run a string of valve heaters totalling, say, 25.2V from 240V AC mains you could use a dropping resistor (which would consume almost 90% of the incoming power, overall efficiency around 10%)) or you could use a transformer, overall efficiency around 80%+. Are you suggesting a transformer is a 'thermodynamic cheat'? For AC or DC, chopper type devices (switching regualtors, triac-type lamp dimmers, etc -- depending on the type of supply, etc) are another way which is a lot more efficient than a resistor. Are those 'thermodynamoic cheats'? -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 23 13:17:48 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 11:17:48 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: <003501d0ddc4$600fef90$202fceb0$@com> References: <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net> <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net> <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net> <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com> <55D96590.8070009@sydex.com> <003501d0ddc4$600fef90$202fceb0$@com> Message-ID: <7C4AAC99-804E-4122-B470-33A778790CE4@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Aug-23, at 9:54 AM, Steve Moulding wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > Hilpert > Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2015 3:07 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? > > On 2015-Aug-22, at 11:55 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 1:17 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> On 08/22/2015 10:23 PM, dwight wrote: >>> >>> I would think the reverse voltage sum of the diodes is enough. >>>> Different diodes also can handle different voltages. Since the sum >>>> of the forward voltages is enough to handle AC, I'd suspect the >>>> reverse voltages each would handle is quite small as well. >>>> The problem is when the current limiting is done with a resistor >>>> that in the forward direction drops a lot of voltage. >>>> The diode has to handle the voltage until breakdown when reversed. >>>> If the resistor was handling 1 Watts, with the right break down, the >>>> LED could be taking .5 Watts. This is more than most are designed >>>> for. >>> >>> ...and that's just the nub of it. The success of this depends >>> largely on the consistent characteristics of every LED in the string. >>> Since LEDs tend to fail short if submitted to overvoltage, I've often >>> wondered if a spike in the AC supply would precipitate a cascade >>> failure in the string. I've looked hard and there are no rectifier >>> diodes in the string--just the LEDs themselves. Probably saves about 5 > cents or so of manufacturing cost. >>> >>> I've also seen LED "night lights" from China that employ nothing more >>> than a safety capacitor (usually about 104) in series with a resistor >>> connected to two back-to-back LEDs, all across the AC line. >>> >>> I've wondered what the lifetime of such a setup is. >>> >>> --Chuck. >>> >> I've also seen C-R series voltage dropping circuits, here & there. >> >> Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the series cap dissipate power >> just as it would, were it a series resistor? I mean, if the LED is >> passing 20mA, the cap is also doing 20mA - and at whatever the Vdrop is. >> >> Right? If not, why? > > I doubt if any brief explanation here is going to the topic justice. Look up > power factor or reactive power. > FWIW: > > The impedance (capacitive reactance, Z=Xc=1/(2*pi*f*C) of the C does produce > the desired voltage drop but the C also shifts the phase of the current > relative to that of the V. To apply the power equation P=VI properly, you > can't just multiply the RMS values together, you multiply the instantaneous > values of the V & I sine waves together through a cycle. You get a third > sine wave, that for power. If V & I are in phase, the power sine wave will > all be in the positive region and is real power consumption. When they are > out of phase, some portion of the power sine wave will be negative: a > portion of the energy the C sucked down the line is being returned during > each cycle. > > Yes, it does reduce energy consumption relative to a purely R solution. > > On a large scale, the power company doesn't like it because it unnecessarily > adds to the currents circulating in the system, but then, this is from C > which shifts the current in one direction, so it's doing some compensation > for the inductive wall warts you have plugged in around the house, which as > L shift the current in the other direction. > > ----------------------- > > Brent, that is an excellent explanation in just a few sentences. One > quibble however. The power company does indeed like components that shift > the current in the capacitive direction. Taken as a whole for the power > grid, the power source sees the load as inductive because of all the > industrial motors it powers, including the ones that exist in almost every > home (washer, dryer, heating/air conditioning, mixer, disposal, etc.) > Capacitor banks are frequently installed in large industrial operations to > shift the inductive load more toward the capacitive power factor. This is > because the power company, as you have implied, charges more for power that > is current shifted away from zero %. I have even seen large motors > installed in industrial situations that run continuously without load, > because such motors appear as a capacitive load, and indeed are called > 'rotary capacitors'. I recall one time when the CFO ordered such a motor > turned off because "it is wasting power." It took a little plain and fancy > instruction by the engineer to let him know that it was actually saving the > company money. Sure, L shift predominates in the system, I was just speaking in general terms at that point. The power companies may be playing it both ways though: I was once told a story of a small mill or manufacturing co. and an electro-plating company situated next door to each other. But the mill was inductive (motors) and the electro-plating was effectively capacitive (not sure how that worked), so they pretty much cancelled each other out and weren't contributing to line losses for the power company. The power company was none-the-less charging both of them for poor power factor (industrial users having special power meters that track power factor). As you mention rotary capacitors, a few miles away from me is a large gas-fired generating station that doesn't get used much for generation as we are primarily hydro in BC. But the hydro generation is distant from here - here being the primary load centre (Vancouver area). They unhook some of the generators at the gas-fired plant from the turbines and run them as rotary capacitors. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 23 13:32:53 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 11:32:53 -0700 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: <55D9EF98.9080808@sydex.com> References: , , , <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net>, , <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net>, , <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net>, <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com>, <55D96590.8070009@sydex.com>, , <55D9EF98.9080808@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2015-Aug-23, at 9:06 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/23/2015 07:10 AM, dwight wrote: >> I've used the capacitor method to provide most of the drop in the >> past. I don't usually max out the LEDs at 20ma. I find there is >> little difference between 10 and 20ma. Yes, the 10 ( or 20ma ) is >> current flow through the capacitor. It is necessary to have some >> resistor in series as well to suppress line spikes. > > Another similar dirty trick back in the day was to run a 6SL7 dual-triode form the line using a 1.0 uF nonpolar capacitor in series with the line to provide a supply for the 500 ma 6.3 v heater and then use one of the triode sections as a half-wave rectifier. You thus had the other triode section for whatever stupid purpose. Of course, this was horrible abuse of the tube, particularly in the area of heater-cathode voltage ratings. It probably wouldn't work as well in 220VAC countries, but it worked well enough in the 120VAC ones. Those ubiquitous motion detectors for outdoor lights use capacitive dropping to supply the low voltage for the ICs and electronics. Cap and small R in series with the AC input to a bridge rectifier. Works out well in that the bridge rectifier permits current flow in both directions, which is necessary to get current flow through the cap (the cap has to charge and discharge). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 23 13:46:03 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 18:46:03 +0000 Subject: RS-232 Tx / Rx monitoring LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: , , , <4B569601-1157-4276-BC5A-B1A2F7FF6D0D@comcast.net>, , <293FC0FA-0CD6-44AD-99B3-BA60EEF68E0A@comcast.net>, , <2F10C2E0-62AF-45AF-A93D-5881F32AE60B@comcast.net>, <55D74A6A.1030705@sydex.com>, <55D96590.8070009@sydex.com>, , <55D9EF98.9080808@sydex.com>, Message-ID: > > Those ubiquitous motion detectors for outdoor lights use capacitive dropping to supply the > low voltage for the ICs and electronics. Cap and small R in series with the AC input to a bridge rectifier. > Works out well in that the bridge rectifier permits current flow in both directions, which is > necessary to get current flow through the cap (the cap has to charge and discharge). Over here that sort of circuit was common for the power supply for the control electronics in washing machines and the like. It may still be, I've not worked on anything that recent. -tony From cube1 at charter.net Sun Aug 23 21:39:58 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 21:39:58 -0500 Subject: SA-800/801 saga continues / schematic request In-Reply-To: <55D8E2D5.8060306@shiresoft.com> References: <55D8E2D5.8060306@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <55DA83FE.3000305@charter.net> Anyone out there have: 1) The Schematic for the newer SA-800/SA-701 board part number 25229.1 ? (It might also go by 25228 or 27121). The SA-800 maintenance manual on bitsavers from Feb 78 describes the original discrete board (such as I have on my Altos in the SA-800s) and an LSI-based board which is apparently earlier than the one in my SA-801 drives - the parts layout does not match the layout on these newer boards. 2) A source for Shugart ASICs, particularly 16270-1 ? And the saga to date: As you may recall, one SA-800 on my Altos was misbehaving. I decided to swap in an SA-801 I had from a Data Systems DSD-440 (a two drive cabinet with 2xSA-801, power supply, and controller intended to talk, I think to a Q-Bus controller...). Anyway, that blew the fuse on my Altos on the second track of a floppy test, but (IIRC), the Altos was not damaged. Call this drive "X". I then decided to swap in the second SA-801 from the DSD-440. That also blew the fuse on the Altos, and this time the power supply was damaged. Call this drive "Y" (The Altos power supply has since been repaired - that saga was recorded earlier. ;) ). Replacing the bearings on the problem SA-800 did not help appreciably with its "wobble" problem. (The spindle shaft is still a possibility, I suppose, along with a damaged clamping frame). Today's news: Having gotten my 20+ year-old home-built floppy supply all fixed up and fused and load tested, I was still a little hesitant to apply it to either of these drives X and Y. So, I disconnected X and Y, and checked out the power supply on the Data Systems DSD-440 Except that the +5V is low, at 4.5V, the supplies seemed OK, in particular, the +24V was fine. So I tested the +24V under load, and it held 24V to 3A (and more, I am sure). When I connect up drive "X", the +24V series pass transistor gets very warm and the +24V drops to around +8.5V (regardless of whether or not the stepper motor leads are connected). On the circuit board, a Shugart ASIC 16270-1 gets quite hot, and is clearly dead. This chip is labeled WR/CHNL in an SA-850 schematic, and is listed in the Shugart spares catalog as "IC, Write Channel". It is indeed fed from the +24V line on pin 15, and connects to the erase and center tap terminals on the head. [I have not measured the head to see if it was damaged - nope not]. I expect that if I pull that chip, the board will not overload the +24V supply. When I connect up drive "Y", the +24V series pass transistor on the power supply gets very hot, but nothing on the circuit board gets hot at all, and the +24V drops to 0. The board measures as a dead short with an ohmmeter (even "X" shows *some* resistance). The stepper driver IC, a standard part UNL2074 (quad darlington power transistors in a 14-pin DIP no less) has a suspicious bump on its head, so I will probably start by pulling it and see what changes (I hope that is it), and if that is the issue, I will also check the voltage clamping diodes in the output circuit and the stepper windings and the 7404 that drives it to make sure it wasn't collateral damage. I expect regardless of the cause, the dead short will be not *too* difficult to find and correct. So, now the saga of the Altos power supply is fully understood. It was the second drive from the DSD-440 that actually killed it. Fortunately, the DSD-440 power supply was apparently robust enough to put up with the abuse. With a little luck, I can make one whole SA-801 out of the pair (focusing on "Y" since I have no source for that 16270 ASIC), and then use the mechanism of "X" with the board from the Altos SA-800 to make a working SA-800 for the Altos. JRJ From cctalk at fahimi.net Sun Aug 23 23:53:58 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 21:53:58 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> Message-ID: <000101d0de28$e405fc40$ac11f4c0$@net> > I can believe that the effect is only temporary--the action simply > cannot go any deeper than a few microns. All of which goes to show > that if you want a more permanent color, there's always paint. I have > equipment that's made from high-density polyurethane foam (no special > dies or forms needed for injection molding) finished with a coat of > paint that's more than 30 years old. It looks as good as the day it > was delivered. Chuck, I can tell you from personal experience that repainting does not work well. One, matching the color is nearly impossible. You can get pretty darn close but not exact. Two, the paint quality is never as good. Three, the feel is different - this one is hard to explain: it just doesn't feel smooth and slick but rough and scratchy. I have tried different brands of paint, gloss, non-gloss, sealant, etc to no avail. I can make it look good especially from a few feet away but in practice you can easily tell it has been painted. Just my two cents. -Ali From maxxtw at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 15:52:53 2015 From: maxxtw at gmail.com (Maxx Wood) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 16:52:53 -0400 Subject: Indianapolis: More classic computing equipment than I can shake a stick at. Message-ID: <55DA32A5.4080803@gmail.com> Anyone who's passing through, or lives near Indianapolis, feel free to give me a shout to set up a time to peruse what I have. I have amassed enough machines to take on their own gravitational pull. Most are in various states of disrepair, in need of attention, but quite a few still work or don't need much work to be functional. A number of machines I intend on keeping for their "neat" factor (like an Olivetti M20) but might be persuaded to part with. Apple (bunch of IIc's, IIe's, IIgs's) Macintosh (40 or so compact Macs - 512, Plus, SE, 'splodey-battery-SE/30's -, a big 'ol stack of 68k and PPC desktops, PowerBooks, a stack of DuoDock II's) Kaypro (maybe 6?) Osborne Compaq Portables (luggable and plasma) Epson QX-10 (2 machines, 1 monitor, pretty certain I have the Valdocs disk somewhere) IBM (5150's, 5160's, and a 5170 with box, and a few monitors) Wang (PC S1-2 with keyboard/monitor(s)) Franklin 8000 with keyboard A few 386/486 machines ADM 3A terminal (doesn't power on, but it's cute) Amiga 2000HD (boots, but I don't have a keyboard or mouse, and the floppy drives continuously seek) Amiga 500 (untested, no power supply) C64's (definitely for parts!) and some drives Tandy 1000 EX (untested) NeXT 21" Color Monitor (too huge and heavy for me to keep, I'll be happy with a VGA converter when I find one) And probably a few other things I'm forgetting about. Price-wise, basically make me an offer. Scrap metal prices are fine with me for a lot of machines so long as they're not actually getting scrapped (hence the post here!). If you're looking for something specific, let me know and I'll see what I have. Thanks! Kind regards, -Maxx From jon at jonworld.com Sun Aug 23 15:59:23 2015 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 22:59:23 +0200 Subject: Indianapolis: More classic computing equipment than I can shake a stick at. In-Reply-To: <55DA32A5.4080803@gmail.com> References: <55DA32A5.4080803@gmail.com> Message-ID: @#%!^ Why is all this posted a full year after I leave Indianapolis and move to Belgium!? :D LOLOL I will ask my local contacts. On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 10:52 PM, Maxx Wood wrote: > Anyone who's passing through, or lives near Indianapolis, feel free to give > me a shout to set up a time to peruse what I have. I have amassed enough > machines to take on their own gravitational pull. Most are in various states > of disrepair, in need of attention, but quite a few still work or don't need > much work to be functional. A number of machines I intend on keeping for > their "neat" factor (like an Olivetti M20) but might be persuaded to part > with. > > Apple (bunch of IIc's, IIe's, IIgs's) > Macintosh (40 or so compact Macs - 512, Plus, SE, 'splodey-battery-SE/30's > -, a big 'ol stack of 68k and PPC desktops, PowerBooks, a stack of DuoDock > II's) > Kaypro (maybe 6?) > Osborne > Compaq Portables (luggable and plasma) > Epson QX-10 (2 machines, 1 monitor, pretty certain I have the Valdocs disk > somewhere) > IBM (5150's, 5160's, and a 5170 with box, and a few monitors) > Wang (PC S1-2 with keyboard/monitor(s)) > Franklin 8000 with keyboard > A few 386/486 machines > ADM 3A terminal (doesn't power on, but it's cute) > Amiga 2000HD (boots, but I don't have a keyboard or mouse, and the floppy > drives continuously seek) > Amiga 500 (untested, no power supply) > C64's (definitely for parts!) and some drives > Tandy 1000 EX (untested) > NeXT 21" Color Monitor (too huge and heavy for me to keep, I'll be happy > with a VGA converter when I find one) > > And probably a few other things I'm forgetting about. Price-wise, basically > make me an offer. Scrap metal prices are fine with me for a lot of machines > so long as they're not actually getting scrapped (hence the post here!). If > you're looking for something specific, let me know and I'll see what I have. > > Thanks! > > Kind regards, > -Maxx -- -Jon +32 0 486 260 686 From scaron at umich.edu Sun Aug 23 16:07:58 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 17:07:58 -0400 Subject: Indianapolis: More classic computing equipment than I can shake a stick at. In-Reply-To: <55DA32A5.4080803@gmail.com> References: <55DA32A5.4080803@gmail.com> Message-ID: Would you willing to ship the A500 up to Michigan? I'd give you a few bucks for it as a spare unit for the one I've got. Best, Sean On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 4:52 PM, Maxx Wood wrote: > Anyone who's passing through, or lives near Indianapolis, feel free to > give me a shout to set up a time to peruse what I have. I have amassed > enough machines to take on their own gravitational pull. Most are in > various states of disrepair, in need of attention, but quite a few still > work or don't need much work to be functional. A number of machines I > intend on keeping for their "neat" factor (like an Olivetti M20) but might > be persuaded to part with. > > Apple (bunch of IIc's, IIe's, IIgs's) > Macintosh (40 or so compact Macs - 512, Plus, SE, 'splodey-battery-SE/30's > -, a big 'ol stack of 68k and PPC desktops, PowerBooks, a stack of DuoDock > II's) > Kaypro (maybe 6?) > Osborne > Compaq Portables (luggable and plasma) > Epson QX-10 (2 machines, 1 monitor, pretty certain I have the Valdocs disk > somewhere) > IBM (5150's, 5160's, and a 5170 with box, and a few monitors) > Wang (PC S1-2 with keyboard/monitor(s)) > Franklin 8000 with keyboard > A few 386/486 machines > ADM 3A terminal (doesn't power on, but it's cute) > Amiga 2000HD (boots, but I don't have a keyboard or mouse, and the floppy > drives continuously seek) > Amiga 500 (untested, no power supply) > C64's (definitely for parts!) and some drives > Tandy 1000 EX (untested) > NeXT 21" Color Monitor (too huge and heavy for me to keep, I'll be happy > with a VGA converter when I find one) > > And probably a few other things I'm forgetting about. Price-wise, > basically make me an offer. Scrap metal prices are fine with me for a lot > of machines so long as they're not actually getting scrapped (hence the > post here!). If you're looking for something specific, let me know and I'll > see what I have. > > Thanks! > > Kind regards, > -Maxx > From jws at jwsss.com Sun Aug 23 16:44:07 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:44:07 -0700 Subject: Indianapolis: More classic computing equipment than I can shake a stick at. In-Reply-To: <55DA32A5.4080803@gmail.com> References: <55DA32A5.4080803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55DA3EA7.3000307@jwsss.com> On 8/23/2015 1:52 PM, Maxx Wood wrote: > Compaq Portables (luggable and plasma) I'm interested in Portable III's and floppy media for them. Let me know what you might have working and otherwise. thanks Jim From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Aug 23 17:32:19 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 15:32:19 -0700 Subject: Indianapolis: More classic computing equipment than I can shake a stick at. In-Reply-To: <55DA32A5.4080803@gmail.com> References: <55DA32A5.4080803@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 23, 2015, at 13:52, Maxx Wood wrote: > > Amiga 2000HD (boots, but I don't have a keyboard or mouse, and the floppy drives continuously seek) If you're referring to a 1-track click each second, then that's normal for an Amiga. It's part of the disk change detection routine. There were lots of "noclick" utilities that patched the code to seek in one direction rather than back and forth, so that the clicking would stop once the heads reached the track 0 sensor. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From maxxtw at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 17:39:32 2015 From: maxxtw at gmail.com (Maxx Wood) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 18:39:32 -0400 Subject: Indianapolis: More classic computing equipment than I can shake a stick at. In-Reply-To: References: <55DA32A5.4080803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55DA4BA4.2040909@gmail.com> Ahhhh! Neat to know - that's exactly what it's doing. :) On 08/23/2015 06:32 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> On Aug 23, 2015, at 13:52, Maxx Wood wrote: >> >> Amiga 2000HD (boots, but I don't have a keyboard or mouse, and the floppy drives continuously seek) > If you're referring to a 1-track click each second, then that's normal for an Amiga. It's part of the disk change detection routine. There were lots of "noclick" utilities that patched the code to seek in one direction rather than back and forth, so that the clicking would stop once the heads reached the track 0 sensor. > > From rob at krten.com Sun Aug 23 18:01:35 2015 From: rob at krten.com (Rob Krten) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 19:01:35 -0400 Subject: FS: PDP-11/55 Message-ID: <20150823230135.GA19758@krten.com> Hi all, I have a PDP-11/55 for sale (Ottawa, Ontario, Canada). Bids open until 2015 09 15, buyer to arrange shipping, I will have it wrapped and ready to go. Please visit: www.krten.com/~rk/museum/index.html For pictures, detailed inventory and contact info. Sealed bids via eamil please. Winner will be notified 2015 09 16, machine will be ready to ship same day. Must be shipped / picked up no later than 2015 10 09. Sold AS-IS / where is, untested, unpowered since received. Comes with H960 rack and 2 side panels. Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten Visit me at http://www.ironkrten.com From rob at krten.com Sun Aug 23 18:03:43 2015 From: rob at krten.com (Rob Krten) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 19:03:43 -0400 Subject: FS: PDP-11/55 Message-ID: <20150823230343.GA19903@krten.com> Hi all, I have a PDP-11/55 for sale (Ottawa, Ontario, Canada). Bids open until 2015 09 15, buyer to arrange shipping, I will have it wrapped and ready to go. Please visit: www.krten.com/~rk/museum/index.html For pictures, detailed inventory and contact info. Sealed bids via eamil please. Winner will be notified 2015 09 16, machine will be ready to ship same day. Must be shipped / picked up no later than 2015 10 09. Sold AS-IS / where is, untested, unpowered since received. Comes with H960 rack and 2 side panels. Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten Visit me at http://www.ironkrten.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 24 00:23:00 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 22:23:00 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <000101d0de28$e405fc40$ac11f4c0$@net> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> <000101d0de28$e405fc40$ac11f4c0$@net> Message-ID: <55DAAA34.9080807@sydex.com> On 08/23/2015 09:53 PM, Ali wrote: > I can tell you from personal experience that repainting does not work > well. One, matching the color is nearly impossible. You can get > pretty darn close but not exact. Two, the paint quality is never as > good. Three, the feel is different - this one is hard to explain: it > just doesn't feel smooth and slick but rough and scratchy. I have > tried different brands of paint, gloss, non-gloss, sealant, etc to no > avail. I can make it look good especially from a few feet away but in > practice you can easily tell it has been painted. > > Just my two cents. Hi Ali, If you're talking about rattle-can painting, I can believe that. But there's painting using professional spray gear, as well as powder-coating. Rattle-can was never intended as anything but an "any idiot can do it" proposition. If that weren't the case, we'd all be painting our cars using a spray can. Regardless, if I read the conservation lists correctly, plastic is eventually doomed. No one seems to know how to stabilize it. I recall an Apple color monitor that sat on a table and, without being powered on or otherwise disturbed, would shed a bit of itself every now and then... Just my own .02, Chuck From starbase89 at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 01:47:17 2015 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 02:47:17 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55DAAA34.9080807@sydex.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> <000101d0de28$e405fc40$ac11f4c0$@net> <55DAAA34.9080807@sydex.com> Message-ID: I've successfully "retrobrited" old TV safety screens and a few NES console. What I used was 12% hydrogen peroxide from the beauty supply shop, along with sodium percarbonate, glycerin to keep it wet and xanthan gum to stabilize it to a paint on gel. Then all you do is paint it on, cover it with Saran Wrap and put it out in the sun. One of the TVs I did, I still have it and the yellow didn't return. I don't know about the NESs because I flip them Fun chemistry! On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 1:23 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/23/2015 09:53 PM, Ali wrote: > > I can tell you from personal experience that repainting does not work >> well. One, matching the color is nearly impossible. You can get >> pretty darn close but not exact. Two, the paint quality is never as >> good. Three, the feel is different - this one is hard to explain: it >> just doesn't feel smooth and slick but rough and scratchy. I have >> tried different brands of paint, gloss, non-gloss, sealant, etc to no >> avail. I can make it look good especially from a few feet away but in >> practice you can easily tell it has been painted. >> >> Just my two cents. >> > > Hi Ali, > > If you're talking about rattle-can painting, I can believe that. > > But there's painting using professional spray gear, as well as > powder-coating. Rattle-can was never intended as anything but an "any > idiot can do it" proposition. > > If that weren't the case, we'd all be painting our cars using a spray can. > > Regardless, if I read the conservation lists correctly, plastic is > eventually doomed. No one seems to know how to stabilize it. > > I recall an Apple color monitor that sat on a table and, without being > powered on or otherwise disturbed, would shed a bit of itself every now and > then... > > Just my own .02, > Chuck > > > From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 00:04:53 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 00:04:53 -0500 Subject: Indianapolis: More classic computing equipment than I can shake a stick at. In-Reply-To: <55DA32A5.4080803@gmail.com> References: <55DA32A5.4080803@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Maxx Wood wrote: > Anyone who's passing through, or lives near Indianapolis, feel free to give > me a shout to set up a time to peruse what I have. I have amassed enough > machines to take on their own gravitational pull. Most are in various states > of disrepair, in need of attention, but quite a few still work or don't need > much work to be functional. A number of machines I intend on keeping for > their "neat" factor (like an Olivetti M20) but might be persuaded to part > with. Maxx - are you attending VCFMW next weekend? From peterbrown10 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 24 08:38:29 2015 From: peterbrown10 at hotmail.com (Peter Brown) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 13:38:29 +0000 Subject: HP 5480A, or, obscure HP instruments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: cube1 at charter.net To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 09:23:06 -0500 Subject: Re: HP 5480A, or, obscure HP instruments / was Re: More on manuals plus rescue On 8/22/2015 8:14 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > > It only helps a little though and when eBay eliminated wildcard matching > awhile back, they also reduced the maximum query length. What I /really/ > don't like about eBay's current search system, is how it substitutes > keywords internally. If I search for "Compaq", I don't want results for > "HP", and likewise if I search for "HP", I don't want results for > "Compaq"... > [Straying towards test equipment part] Was there any resolution to the original request for HP5480A service information? I have fiches for this instrument as follows 1. 5480A - Signal Analyzer Operating manual Part 1 - 05480-90014(fiche) - 2 fiches, 60 pages per fiche 2. 5480A/B - Signal Analyzer system vol 1System service manual - 05480-90015(fiche) 7 fiches, 60 pages per fiche 3. 5480A/B - Signal Analyzer system operating and service manual - 05480-90025(fiche) 5 fiches, 60 pages per fiche 4. 5480A/B - Signal Analyzer with 5485A, 5486AB, 5487A, 5488A service Volume 2, 3 and 4 - 05480-90016(fiche) 8 fiches, 60 pages per fiche .. but no way of printing them out [On topic part] Is there a cost effective / group accessible method for making manuals that were originally supplied on fiche available to the group? Regards Peter From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Aug 24 08:51:55 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 09:51:55 -0400 Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement In-Reply-To: <55D93084.40209@sydex.com> References: <20150822212339.GL5267@brevard.conman.org> <55D8F73F.9070504@sydex.com> <40476C07-B956-4F93-B1F0-04E071EEE2E2@comcast.net> <55D91EBA.3020901@sydex.com> <43AA3994-228E-4F1B-8915-90B95113C105@comcast.net> <55D93084.40209@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6532592B-0717-4677-8491-4C2FD3EFDF5D@comcast.net> > On Aug 22, 2015, at 10:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 08/22/2015 06:26 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > than the usual rule). >>> >>> I recall the "integer multiply" feature (i.e. optional) available >>> on the 6000. IXi Xj*Xk, but it didn't provide any more precision >>> than the usual unnormalized double-precision multiply DXi Xj*Xk, >>> but saved some time spent fiddling with exponent fields. >> >> ??? Never heard of any such thing. IXi Xj*Xk is a defined opcode, >> but it's simply a synonym for Dxi Xj*Xk. > > Well, we were always the guinea pig for QSEs in SSD. It's not described in the Cyber 70 docs, but we had Cybers fitted with the option. It did make its way into the 170s however: > > In 60456100A, re: the 42 instruction (page 4-24, second column): > > "This instruction is used in multiple-precision floating-point calculations. This instruction also provides for integer multiplication capabilities where both operands have an exponent value of plus or minus zero and neither coefficient has been normalized. The integer result sent to Xi is *48 bits with a 60-bit sign extension* (emphasis mine)." Ok, but that is simply the standard 6000 series double multiply. That's not an optional feature; the behavior you describe is how it always works and why IXX*X is a synonym for DXX*X. All that's going on here is that the exponent field remains zero, so it acts as an extended sign field. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 24 09:38:25 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 07:38:25 -0700 Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group Message-ID: <55DB2C61.50801@bitsavers.org> just noticed this http://article.gmane.org/gmane.announce/23246/match=gmane+comp+hardware+vintage From: Mailing List Manager gmane.org> Subject: New group gmane.comp.hardware.vintage Newsgroups: gmane.announce Date: 2015-05-19 10:57:19 GMT (13 weeks, 6 days, 3 hours and 39 minutes ago) The newsgroup gmane.comp.hardware.vintage has been created. The subject of the first message posted was Subject: Re: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing list. Description: Classic Computing Talk (non-public). From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 24 10:22:27 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 08:22:27 -0700 Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group In-Reply-To: <55DB2C61.50801@bitsavers.org> References: <55DB2C61.50801@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 07:38:25 -0700 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: General at classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group > > just noticed this > > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.announce/23246/match=gmane+comp+hardware+vintage > > From: Mailing List Manager gmane.org> > Subject: New group gmane.comp.hardware.vintage > Newsgroups: gmane.announce > Date: 2015-05-19 10:57:19 GMT (13 weeks, 6 days, 3 hours and 39 minutes ago) > > The newsgroup gmane.comp.hardware.vintage has been created. > The subject of the first message posted was > > Subject: Re: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A > > This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing list. > > Description: Classic Computing Talk (non-public). > > > > What does " This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing list."mean?Dwight From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 24 10:34:03 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 10:34:03 -0500 Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group In-Reply-To: References: <55DB2C61.50801@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000601d0de82$4ed15200$ec73f600$@classiccmp.org> That means they are copying the list without permission. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 10:22 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: FYI gmane cctalk group > Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 07:38:25 -0700 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: General at classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group > > just noticed this > > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.announce/23246/match=gmane+comp+hardware+vint age > > From: Mailing List Manager gmane.org> > Subject: New group gmane.comp.hardware.vintage > Newsgroups: gmane.announce > Date: 2015-05-19 10:57:19 GMT (13 weeks, 6 days, 3 hours and 39 minutes ago) > > The newsgroup gmane.comp.hardware.vintage has been created. > The subject of the first message posted was > > Subject: Re: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A > > This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing list. > > Description: Classic Computing Talk (non-public). > > > > What does " This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing list."mean?Dwight = From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Aug 24 12:47:00 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:47:00 +0200 Subject: VMS7.3 dismount of a device with pagefile before shutdown? Message-ID: <20150824174700.GA24708@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, I've managed to relaocate the pagefile.sys of my VMS7.3 to the secondary disk disk1$dia1 because of space considerations of the first disk (380MB total, free blocks 228672 now). I've seen complaints of the system that the disk wasn't properly dismounted after each reboot and would be rebuild. A hint from my friend Vaxman was, to mount the disk with the option /NOREBUILD in SYPAGSWPFILES.COM so it looks like this now: $ MOUNT/SYSTEM/NOASSIST/NOREBUILD DISK1$DIA1: DATA1 $ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:SYSGEN INSTALL DISK1$DIA1:[SYSEXE]PAGEFILE1.SYS/PAGEFILE EXIT $ EXIT Is there an other way to properly dismount the drive at the shutdown? My home directory lives on the 2nd disk too..and I think /NOREBUILD supresses the warning message, but not the problem at all.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 24 13:16:30 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 14:16:30 -0400 Subject: In Realtime: Saving 25,000 Manuals =?UTF-8?B?4oCUIEF1Z3VzdCAx?= =?UTF-8?B?NSwgMjAxNQ==?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55DB5F7E.4020900@sbcglobal.net> On 08/21/2015 08:08 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 15 August 2015 at 13:03, Liam Proven wrote: >> http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 >> >> Apologies if this is old news... > > > Some pictures, from sun-rescue: > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/albums/72157657277241785/page1 > I'm curious, what percentage of thier stock was saved? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jason at textfiles.com Mon Aug 24 13:19:14 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 14:19:14 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_In_Realtime=3A_Saving_25=2C000_Manuals_=E2=80=94_August_15?= =?UTF-8?Q?=2C_2015?= In-Reply-To: <55DB5F7E.4020900@sbcglobal.net> References: <55DB5F7E.4020900@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 08/21/2015 08:08 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 15 August 2015 at 13:03, Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 >>> >>> Apologies if this is old news... >>> >> >> >> Some pictures, from sun-rescue: >> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/albums/72157657277241785/page1 >> >> I'm curious, what percentage of thier stock was saved? If you go by "unique manuals", 95-99%. If you go by "total number of manuals, including duplicates", probably 25-30%. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 13:23:20 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 14:23:20 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_In_Realtime=3A_Saving_25=2C000_Manuals_=E2=80=94_August_15?= =?UTF-8?Q?=2C_2015?= In-Reply-To: References: <55DB5F7E.4020900@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Jason Scott wrote: >>> I'm curious, what percentage of thier stock was saved? > > If you go by "unique manuals", 95-99%. > If you go by "total number of manuals, including duplicates", probably > 25-30%. Heroic! -ethan From cctalk at fahimi.net Mon Aug 24 13:37:11 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 11:37:11 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55DAAA34.9080807@sydex.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> <000101d0de28$e405fc40$ac11f4c0$@net> <55DAAA34.9080807@sydex.com> Message-ID: <006701d0de9b$e4de3790$ae9aa6b0$@net> > If you're talking about rattle-can painting, I can believe that. > > But there's painting using professional spray gear, as well as powder- > coating. Rattle-can was never intended as anything but an "any idiot > can do it" proposition. > Hi Chuck, Actually I was talking about professional spray gear in a vented hood. I agree spray can is definitely a non-starter but so is powder coating for most people. My point was in the general hobbyist community most of us have access to spray cans or at best a spray gun. A few of us may have access to an oven (through a body shop for example) and very high end paint but then the cost begins to go up exponentially. Even then there is texture to worry about and color matching. Given these limitations painting a case is really not feasible for most of us. Retrobright while imperfect is good for the occasional times when you want to show off your gear (sort of like waxing and buffing the chrome on the old car to a super shine before taking it to an auto show). Paint offers a bit of a better look but with its own tradeoffs. We ma all just have to live with yellow gear ;). -Ali From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Aug 24 13:11:38 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:11:38 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VMS7.3 dismount of a device with pagefile before shutdown? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:47:00 +0200" <20150824174700.GA24708@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <01PPXN6UCJ3S0084J5@beyondthepale.ie> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hi, > > I've managed to relaocate the pagefile.sys of my VMS7.3 to the secondary > disk disk1$dia1 because of space considerations of the first disk (380MB > total, free blocks 228672 now). > > I've seen complaints of the system that the disk wasn't properly dismounted > after each reboot and would be rebuild. A hint from my friend Vaxman was, > to mount the disk with the option /NOREBUILD in SYPAGSWPFILES.COM so it > looks like this now: > > $ MOUNT/SYSTEM/NOASSIST/NOREBUILD DISK1$DIA1: DATA1 > $ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:SYSGEN > INSTALL DISK1$DIA1:[SYSEXE]PAGEFILE1.SYS/PAGEFILE > EXIT > $ EXIT > > Is there an other way to properly dismount the drive at the shutdown? If you are using @SYS$SYSTEM:SHUTDOWN to shut down, this should issue a DISMOUNT /ABORT /OVERRIDE=CHECKS (optionally /CLUSTER and /UNLOAD) for each disk that is mounted. However, this only marks the disk for dismount and the disk might not actually get dismounted if there are processes still accessing files (including the pagefile) on the disk by the time the CPU is halted. You might see some messages at shutdown time saying that the disk has been marked for dismount or maybe there might be a message saying it couldn't be dismounted? It works ok for me with VAX/VMS 5.5-2 on a VAXstation 3100 but I have a pagefile on the system disk as well as a pagefile on a second disk and this setup may be less likely to end up with a system process which cannot be stopped grimly hanging on to the pagefile on the second disk at shutdown time (because the system processes will most likely get pagefile allocations in the pagefile on the system disk, not the pagefile on the second disk.) > > My home directory lives on the 2nd disk too..and I think /NOREBUILD > supresses the warning message, but not the problem at all.. > The /NOREBUILD means don't rebuild the free space cache. If the free space cache is not rebuilt after the disk is improperly dismounted, the result is that not all of the free space on the disk will be available for use. There will not be damage to the filesystem or data loss. The missing free space can be recovered using SET VOLUME /REBUILD at some more convenient time after booting instead of having MOUNT /REBUILD hold up the boot process. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 24 13:59:47 2015 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 11:59:47 -0700 Subject: Looking for some shipping help with a M33 teletype Message-ID: I posted this about a week or so ago. I bought a teletype in Elkorn, Wisconsin and need a volunteer to help with the shipping; Take it off the pedestal; Put the shipping bolt in the printer; Watch craters and freighters, that they have plenty of foam to cushion the unit. I will pay you for this service... Thanks, Randy Dawson From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 14:00:39 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 15:00:39 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <006701d0de9b$e4de3790$ae9aa6b0$@net> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> <000101d0de28$e405fc40$ac11f4c0$@net> <55DAAA34.9080807@sydex.com> <006701d0de9b$e4de3790$ae9aa6b0$@net> Message-ID: > Actually I was talking about professional spray gear in a vented hood. I agree spray can is definitely a non-starter but so is powder coating for most people. My point was in the general hobbyist community most of us have access to spray cans or at best a spray gun. A few of us may have access to an oven (through a body shop for example) and very high end paint but then the cost begins to go up exponentially. Even then there is texture to worry about and color matching. Given these limitations painting a case is really not feasible for most of us. A low end single-action Badger or Paasche airbrush set is pretty inexpensive. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 24 14:31:30 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 12:31:30 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <006701d0de9b$e4de3790$ae9aa6b0$@net> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> <000101d0de28$e405fc40$ac11f4c0$@net> <55DAAA34.9080807@sydex.com> <006701d0de9b$e4de3790$ae9aa6b0$@net> Message-ID: <55DB7112.9010606@sydex.com> On 08/24/2015 11:37 AM, Ali wrote: I was working on a Sharp brand tabletop copier. I was surprised to find that the thing was "painted" with a very fine (almost like fine sand) texture. So there are surprises. I'm not into the de-yellowing thing myself. There's no evidence that de-yellowing improves the durability of objects. A museum curator preparing an exhibit might well use a water-based acrylic that can easily be washed off. As the old real-estate line goes, "You'll never notice with the shades drawn and the lights out". --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 24 14:34:15 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:34:15 +0000 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55DB7112.9010606@sydex.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> <000101d0de28$e405fc40$ac11f4c0$@net> <55DAAA34.9080807@sydex.com> <006701d0de9b$e4de3790$ae9aa6b0$@net>,<55DB7112.9010606@sydex.com> Message-ID: > I'm not into the de-yellowing thing myself. There's no evidence that > de-yellowing improves the durability of objects. A museum curator Precisely my view, as I said a couple of days ago. If there is some way to 'stabilise' the plastic so it doesn't go brittle or just fall apart on its own then I would consider trying it. But not a cosmetic colour change that will not make my VT100 or whatever last any longer. > preparing an exhibit might well use a water-based acrylic that can > easily be washed off. Which would be, I think, totally useless for an object which is going to be handled and used, like most classic computers here. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 14:37:08 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 15:37:08 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <55DB7112.9010606@sydex.com> References: <55D76ADE.7070405@snarc.net> <55D79E02.2040409@charter.net> <55D7A617.5000203@snarc.net> <55D86A17.4040807@gmail.com> <072301d0dcd7$46d3a820$d47af860$@gmail.com> <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> <000101d0de28$e405fc40$ac11f4c0$@net> <55DAAA34.9080807@sydex.com> <006701d0de9b$e4de3790$ae9aa6b0$@net> <55DB7112.9010606@sydex.com> Message-ID: > I'm not into the de-yellowing thing myself. There's no evidence that > de-yellowing improves the durability of objects. A museum curator preparing > an exhibit might well use a water-based acrylic that can easily be washed > off. That is what the Air and Space Museum has done for a while - a very thin wax coat covers the original, untouched finish, and a new paint job is applied onto the wax. Apparently it is easy to strip off, thus a reversible portion of a restoration, but I think the paint is not durable at all (which is why you should not touch things in museums unless given permission). I am not a fan of the Retrobrite process, although I have never tried it out. In my mind it just seems wrong. -- Will From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Aug 24 14:48:34 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 15:48:34 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing Message-ID: <117736.1210cad9.430ccf12@aol.com> and I will add... the Retrobrite... we are not sure what the long term effect is.... It would be a real bummer if 50 years from now the object decomposes.... OH NOOOO!!!! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 8/24/2015 12:37:14 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, wdonzelli at gmail.com writes: > I'm not into the de-yellowing thing myself. There's no evidence that > de-yellowing improves the durability of objects. A museum curator preparing > an exhibit might well use a water-based acrylic that can easily be washed > off. That is what the Air and Space Museum has done for a while - a very thin wax coat covers the original, untouched finish, and a new paint job is applied onto the wax. Apparently it is easy to strip off, thus a reversible portion of a restoration, but I think the paint is not durable at all (which is why you should not touch things in museums unless given permission). I am not a fan of the Retrobrite process, although I have never tried it out. In my mind it just seems wrong. -- Will From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Aug 24 15:06:32 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 15:06:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: HP 5480A, or, obscure HP instruments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Aug 2015, Peter Brown wrote: > Was there any resolution to the original request for HP5480A service > information? > > I have fiches for this instrument as follows > > 1. 5480A - Signal Analyzer Operating manual Part 1 - 05480-90014(fiche) - 2 fiches, 60 pages per fiche > 2. 5480A/B - Signal Analyzer system vol 1System service manual - 05480-90015(fiche) 7 fiches, 60 pages per fiche > 3. 5480A/B - Signal Analyzer system operating and service manual - 05480-90025(fiche) 5 fiches, 60 pages per fiche > 4. 5480A/B - Signal Analyzer with 5485A, 5486AB, 5487A, 5488A service Volume 2, 3 and 4 - 05480-90016(fiche) 8 fiches, 60 pages per fiche > > .. but no way of printing them out > > [On topic part] > > Is there a cost effective / group accessible method for making manuals > that were originally supplied on fiche available to the group? Possibly. I'll email you some contact information off-list. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Aug 24 15:15:01 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 15:15:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_In_Realtime=3A_Saving_25=2C000_Manuals_=E2=80=94_August_15=2C_2015?= In-Reply-To: References: <55DB5F7E.4020900@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Aug 2015, Jason Scott wrote: > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> On 08/21/2015 08:08 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> On 15 August 2015 at 13:03, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>>> http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 >>>> >>>> Apologies if this is old news... >>> >>> Some pictures, from sun-rescue: >>> >>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/albums/72157657277241785/page1 >>> >> I'm curious, what percentage of thier stock was saved? > > If you go by "unique manuals", 95-99%. > If you go by "total number of manuals, including duplicates", probably > 25-30%. Possibly more. When I spoke to Becky last Thursday, she mentioned several local people wanted to come pick up whatever was left. I have no idea if that has actually happened though. From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 17:30:01 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 15:30:01 -0700 Subject: So, what's the deal with DigiBarn? Message-ID: Hey all- I've always wondered about this. Their website hasn't seen a proper update in years, and it looks like they have a lot of choice hardware donated to them that they may not be maintaining... Is it open to the public? Are people actively volunteering there to make sure this stuff is shown some love and not falling into disrepair? Keeping leaky batteries, capacitors, rust at bay, and doing repairs? Imaging disks? They have some very worthwhile examples of machines but I haven't seen much from them as an organization in years! I'm sure lots of people would be willing to help if they are under-resourced. Thanks, - Ian -- Ian Finder ian.finder at gmail.com From chrise at pobox.com Mon Aug 24 18:28:04 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 18:28:04 -0500 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: References: <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> <000101d0de28$e405fc40$ac11f4c0$@net> <55DAAA34.9080807@sydex.com> <006701d0de9b$e4de3790$ae9aa6b0$@net> <55DB7112.9010606@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20150824232804.GP14046@n0jcf.net> I recently restored several VT100 that were extremely yellowed as well as filthy dirty. I put the plastics in my bathtub and sprayed them heavily with "Krud Kutter", intending only to remove the dirt. To my surprise, much of the yellowing came off too. It didn't return them to their pristine original color but significantly reduced the yellowing as a tea colored runoff pooled in the bottom of the tub. https://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/krud-kutter/cleaners-and-stain-removers/original-krud-kutter I rinsed with clear water and hit them again with a soaking of the Krud Kutter and more "tea" came off. After a third try, no more tea and so I quit. They look really good now and I shined up the brown plastic areas with some "Armor All" which gives it a nice shine. I did four VT100 this way with the same results on all of them. I don't think any of this was harsh to the plastics and so I will use it again on other yellowed stuff. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Aug 24 18:41:50 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:41:50 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <20150824232804.GP14046@n0jcf.net> References: <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> <000101d0de28$e405fc40$ac11f4c0$@net> <55DAAA34.9080807@sydex.com> <006701d0de9b$e4de3790$ae9aa6b0$@net> <55DB7112.9010606@sydex.com> <20150824232804.GP14046@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: > On Aug 24, 2015, at 7:28 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > I recently restored several VT100 that were extremely yellowed as well > as filthy dirty. > > I put the plastics in my bathtub and sprayed them heavily with "Krud > Kutter", intending only to remove the dirt. To my surprise, much of > the yellowing came off too. Sometimes yellow is color change of the plastic, and sometimes it's just crud. Our current home was rather yellow inside when we moved in. After I sprayed everything with windex and wiped it all down, it was back to white. The yellow was simply a large amount of tobacco residue from the chain smoking late owner. paul From cctalk at fahimi.net Mon Aug 24 18:43:55 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 16:43:55 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <20150824232804.GP14046@n0jcf.net> References: <55D8B9C3.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> <000101d0de28$e405fc40$ac11f4c0$@net> <55DAAA34.9080807@sydex.com> <006701d0de9b$e4de3790$ae9aa6b0$@net> <55DB7112.9010606@sydex.com> <20150824232804.GP14046@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <008901d0dec6$beacc930$3c065b90$@net> > I recently restored several VT100 that were extremely yellowed as well > as filthy dirty. > > I put the plastics in my bathtub and sprayed them heavily with "Krud > Kutter", intending only to remove the dirt. To my surprise, much of > the yellowing came off too. It didn't return them to their pristine > original color but significantly reduced the yellowing as a tea colored > runoff pooled in the bottom of the tub. Chris, Do you have pictures? I wonder if one of the main ingredients maybe H2O2. Also how long ago did you do this? There may not have been enough time for a return to the yellow color. -Ali From chrise at pobox.com Mon Aug 24 18:52:15 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 18:52:15 -0500 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: References: <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> <000101d0de28$e405fc40$ac11f4c0$@net> <55DAAA34.9080807@sydex.com> <006701d0de9b$e4de3790$ae9aa6b0$@net> <55DB7112.9010606@sydex.com> <20150824232804.GP14046@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20150824235215.GQ14046@n0jcf.net> On Monday (08/24/2015 at 07:41PM -0400), Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Aug 24, 2015, at 7:28 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > > I recently restored several VT100 that were extremely yellowed as well > > as filthy dirty. > > > > I put the plastics in my bathtub and sprayed them heavily with "Krud > > Kutter", intending only to remove the dirt. To my surprise, much of > > the yellowing came off too. > > Sometimes yellow is color change of the plastic, and sometimes it's just crud. Our current home was rather yellow inside when we moved in. After I sprayed everything with windex and wiped it all down, it was back to white. The yellow was simply a large amount of tobacco residue from the chain smoking late owner. oh yes-- I'm very aware of the yellow you get from tobacco smoke and this was not that. There was no residue inside the units or any associated sticky or tar evidence either. You could also tell where there was more yellowing due to orientation of the units-- as if they were facing a window or flourescent lights, etc. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Mon Aug 24 18:56:19 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 18:56:19 -0500 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <008901d0dec6$beacc930$3c065b90$@net> References: <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> <000101d0de28$e405fc40$ac11f4c0$@net> <55DAAA34.9080807@sydex.com> <006701d0de9b$e4de3790$ae9aa6b0$@net> <55DB7112.9010606@sydex.com> <20150824232804.GP14046@n0jcf.net> <008901d0dec6$beacc930$3c065b90$@net> Message-ID: <20150824235619.GR14046@n0jcf.net> On Monday (08/24/2015 at 04:43PM -0700), Ali wrote: > > I recently restored several VT100 that were extremely yellowed as well > > as filthy dirty. > > > > I put the plastics in my bathtub and sprayed them heavily with "Krud > > Kutter", intending only to remove the dirt. To my surprise, much of > > the yellowing came off too. It didn't return them to their pristine > > original color but significantly reduced the yellowing as a tea colored > > runoff pooled in the bottom of the tub. > > Chris, > > Do you have pictures? I wonder if one of the main ingredients maybe H2O2. > Also how long ago did you do this? There may not have been enough time for a > return to the yellow color. I don't have any pictures-- no before/after sort of thing as I am usually done with these projects before I think about taking pictures. I'm not big on that. I did this a little over a year ago and they look the same today as they did when I finished putting them back together. Not that this is any evidence of how they will look in 30 more years but there's a good chance I will be done with them by then any way... Chris -- Chris Elmquist From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 24 19:23:32 2015 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:23:32 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing In-Reply-To: <20150824235619.GR14046@n0jcf.net> References: <55D8C343.8020407@sydex.com> <55D8CF8B.3040907@sydex.com> <000101d0de28$e405fc40$ac11f4c0$@net> <55DAAA34.9080807@sydex.com> <006701d0de9b$e4de3790$ae9aa6b0$@net> <55DB7112.9010606@sydex.com> <20150824232804.GP14046@n0jcf.net> <008901d0dec6$beacc930$3c065b90$@net> <20150824235619.GR14046@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <03A859564B184336A194FC67FE3DA304@TeoPC> Sometimes the yellow coming off is just the degraded plastic. Even a mild cleaning just removes the surface layer of degraded plastic. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Elmquist Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 7:56 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: De-yellowing On Monday (08/24/2015 at 04:43PM -0700), Ali wrote: > > I recently restored several VT100 that were extremely yellowed as well > > as filthy dirty. > > > > I put the plastics in my bathtub and sprayed them heavily with "Krud > > Kutter", intending only to remove the dirt. To my surprise, much of > > the yellowing came off too. It didn't return them to their pristine > > original color but significantly reduced the yellowing as a tea colored > > runoff pooled in the bottom of the tub. > > Chris, > > Do you have pictures? I wonder if one of the main ingredients maybe H2O2. > Also how long ago did you do this? There may not have been enough time for > a > return to the yellow color. I don't have any pictures-- no before/after sort of thing as I am usually done with these projects before I think about taking pictures. I'm not big on that. I did this a little over a year ago and they look the same today as they did when I finished putting them back together. Not that this is any evidence of how they will look in 30 more years but there's a good chance I will be done with them by then any way... Chris -- Chris Elmquist --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From shumaker at att.net Mon Aug 24 19:31:25 2015 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 17:31:25 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <55D92282.5020509@sydex.com> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> <484598CB-9804-413D-A1C8-458F2B43F48E@cs.ubc.ca> <55D8AC4D.6090402@charter.net> <55D8C2BF.207@sydex.com> <55D8E644.9020406@bitsavers.org> <55D92282.5020509@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55DBB75D.50900@att.net> On 8/22/2015 6:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/22/2015 02:14 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> >> No, I haven't the faintest idea where you would even find a copy today. > > I did find a reference to the CCVS suite of tests for sequential I/O: > > http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA019757 > > > TOG lists the 1985 suite as the standard validation for COBOL, but the > link goes to NCC and thence to a 404. > > One used to be able to get such stuff from the USDOC, but I doubt that > they would know what you were talking about today. > > I suspect that there's a reel of tape somewhere with the damned things > on it. > > --Chuck > > > > Actually, with a little digging on DTIC I found another reference 9actaully several - the full manual is there - and ended up on NTIS which shows it *still* available although when you click the link the product number gives an error and suggests you contact customer service:..... Al? https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults.xhtml?searchQuery=ADA024912 steve From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Aug 24 19:33:43 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:33:43 -0400 Subject: So, what's the deal with DigiBarn? Message-ID: <11e251.acd96ae.430d11e7@aol.com> I wrote them with an Osborne question as we got a osborne 1 but it was later and slicker and they replied other than that I do not know. Seems we are getting hit with computers with handles on them this month. A RS 4P showed up today! Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC In a message dated 8/24/2015 3:30:06 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, ian.finder at gmail.com writes: Hey all- I've always wondered about this. Their website hasn't seen a proper update in years, and it looks like they have a lot of choice hardware donated to them that they may not be maintaining... Is it open to the public? Are people actively volunteering there to make sure this stuff is shown some love and not falling into disrepair? Keeping leaky batteries, capacitors, rust at bay, and doing repairs? Imaging disks? They have some very worthwhile examples of machines but I haven't seen much from them as an organization in years! I'm sure lots of people would be willing to help if they are under-resourced. Thanks, - Ian -- Ian Finder ian.finder at gmail.com From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 24 19:39:15 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:39:15 -0400 Subject: In Realtime: Saving 25,000 Manuals =?UTF-8?B?4oCUIEF1Z3VzdCAx?= =?UTF-8?B?NSwgMjAxNQ==?= In-Reply-To: References: <55DB5F7E.4020900@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <55DBB933.6010308@sbcglobal.net> On 08/24/2015 02:19 PM, Jason Scott wrote: > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Dave Woyciesjes > wrote: > >> On 08/21/2015 08:08 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> On 15 August 2015 at 13:03, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>>> http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 >>>> >>>> Apologies if this is old news... >>>> >>> >>> >>> Some pictures, from sun-rescue: >>> >>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/albums/72157657277241785/page1 >>> >>> I'm curious, what percentage of thier stock was saved? > > > If you go by "unique manuals", 95-99%. > If you go by "total number of manuals, including duplicates", probably > 25-30%. > Wow, a lot fo work. Wish I was close enough to help. Good job. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 20:11:46 2015 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 21:11:46 -0400 Subject: (OT?) Copyright and IP In-Reply-To: References: <55D8676A.10407@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: Yes. Information by itself has no behavior. Water and electricity are especially bad analogies, because they are both tangible. When you use the water or charge, it is gone. You can't take one water molecule have share it between 100 people. You can, however, share the same bit of information to an infinite number of others. So maybe it is not "information wants to be free", it's that "Information is a Tribble. Turn your back and you have more information." On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 12:23 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > "This goes directly against how information > behaves, which is to flow freely. " > > Information has neither preference nor intent, nor any other inherent > behavioral characteristic(s). > > You could make a water or electricity analogy - but both of those are most > often regulated, channeled, stored-up and rationed-out out as needed. > > As much as I find appeal in the notion that "Information wants to be free", > information, per se, cannot want for anything at all. > > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 7:13 AM, Alexis Kotlowy < > thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org> wrote: > > > Hi List, > > > > This relates to the ongoing discussion about vintage computer software > > copyright. > > > > A year or so ago I did some Beta videotape backups for the Australian > > Computer Society. They're of keynote speeches at the 10th Australian > > Computer Conference in 1983. One that I'd like to mention is by Tania > > Amochev from (then) Control Data Corporation, titled Information > > Services of the Future. > > > > In it, things we now call data mining and Google AdSense are discussed, > > and the potential of data services in general (this is in 1983). One > > thing that struck me was the contrast between traditional copyright of > > material items, and how such ideas don't apply very well to non-material > > information. > > > > I was left with the impression that the idea of "Intellectual Property" > > is in some ways an attempt to force information to be treated like > > materials, which is an easy way to put a value information, but also > > allows it to be hoarded. This goes directly against how information > > behaves, which is to flow freely. This free-flow of information allows > > more information to be derived or generated, enhancing productivity and > > overall knowledge. > > > > To quote: "Information is diffusive - it leaks. The more it leaks, the > > more of it there is. Information is aggressive, even imperialistic. It > > simply breaks out of its unnatural bonds, the bonds of secrecy in which > > 'thing minded' people try to lock it. So secrecy, property rights, > > confidentiality, all enshrined in Western thought and law, are not > > particularly effective restraints on information." > > > > This is not a cry to abolish copyright and intellectual property laws, > > but to highlight some of the inadequacies of the thought process behind > > these laws when dealing with high speed, global information. > > > > Does anyone have any thoughts? If there was a massive shift in the > > fundamental philosophy of how information should be valued, where would > > you like that shift to go? For example, is there a way to pay > > programmers and similar professions by the quality of their work, rather > > than just the number of lines of code they write. How do you measure the > > quality of information? > > > > I'll see if I can get permission to have the six keynote addresses put > > online, because they're all fascinating. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Alexis. > > > > P.S., if this is way off topic, my apologies. > > > From cube1 at charter.net Mon Aug 24 20:21:11 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:21:11 -0500 Subject: SA-800/801 saga continues / schematic request In-Reply-To: <55DA83FE.3000305@charter.net> References: <55D8E2D5.8060306@shiresoft.com> <55DA83FE.3000305@charter.net> Message-ID: <55DBC307.3030101@charter.net> On 8/23/2015 9:39 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > When I connect up drive "X", the +24V series pass transistor gets very > warm and the +24V drops to around +8.5V (regardless of whether or not > the stepper motor leads are connected). On the circuit board, a > Shugart ASIC 16270-1 gets quite hot, and is clearly dead. This chip is > labeled WR/CHNL in an SA-850 schematic, and is listed in the Shugart > spares catalog as "IC, Write Channel". It is indeed fed from the +24V > line on pin 15, and connects to the erase and center tap terminals on > the head. [I have not measured the head to see if it was damaged - nope > not]. I expect that if I pull that chip, the board will not overload > the +24V supply. > > When I connect up drive "Y", the +24V series pass transistor on the > power supply gets very hot, but nothing on the circuit board gets hot at > all, and the +24V drops to 0. The board measures as a dead short with > an ohmmeter (even "X" shows *some* resistance). The stepper driver IC, > a standard part UNL2074 (quad darlington power transistors in a 14-pin > DIP no less) has a suspicious bump on its head, so I will probably start > by pulling it and see what changes (I hope that is it), and if that is > the issue, I will also check the voltage clamping diodes in the output > circuit and the stepper windings and the 7404 that drives it to make > sure it wasn't collateral damage. I expect regardless of the cause, the > dead short will be not *too* difficult to find and correct. > > So, now the saga of the Altos power supply is fully understood. It was > the second drive from the DSD-440 that actually killed it. Fortunately, > the DSD-440 power supply was apparently robust enough to put up with the > abuse. > > With a little luck, I can make one whole SA-801 out of the pair > (focusing on "Y" since I have no source for that 16270 ASIC), and then > use the mechanism of "X" with the board from the Altos SA-800 to make a > working SA-800 for the Altos. > > JRJ > Some GOOD NEWS for a change. I pulled the UNL2074 from drive "Y", and the short remained. The next most obvious component for a dead short was actually a little 4.7uf filter capacitor - and indeed that was the culprit. The board from drive "X" donated its corresponding capacitor, as the odds of me fixing that board are not very good, owing to the 16270-1 Shugart ASIC. Returned the UNL2074 back into the board on "Y". Erased (with a tape eraser for open reel tapes back in the 60's), formatted a floppy and tested, including interchange with the original second drive in the Altos, and all is well. Tomorrow I get to test the 2nd 801 (drive "X") mechanism with the board from drive "Y". I expect it will be fine as well. Then I can swap out the electronics from the original first Altos drive onto drive "Y" (they are plug compatible that way) to get another working drive. BTW, the replacement FD-1791B-02 (I actually tested to) did help with the hung floppy controller after errors syndrome - it happened significantly less often that with a FD-1791B-01 . JRJ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 20:27:32 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:27:32 -0500 Subject: Osborne O1 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55DBC484.6070800@gmail.com> On 08/23/2015 03:28 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > Howdy gents, > > Working away on the recently acquired Osborne 1. Seems there's something > wrong with the KB - and if I didn't know better, I'd say it's a case of > shorted contacts. > > The KB connector is 24 pins, double row header like a short floppy or IDE > header. > > On the KB side, there are two "shorted" groups of pins. Group one is 2X > shortred pins, group two is 5X shorted pins. I just prodded mine with a meter, and the only continuity I get is between pins 2 and 23 (numbered as follows, looking into the keyboard connector, with the cable exiting toward the right) _____________________________________ | nc 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 nc nc | | nc 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 nc |====== ------------------------------------- > Thing is, this KB is not really built to be serviced, best as I can tell. Yeah, I just opened the case on mine, and it's a pretty nasty design - cheap as possible :-( Wish I'd tried that keyboard on my system now so you knew it had problems! > With such limited access, I don't see many avenues other than flushing with > solvent(s) and hoping for the best. Yeah, I'd do that first - or maybe soapy water followed by a flush with distilled, then leave it for a week or so to dry. Can't hurt. If that doesn't work... break the melted plastic bits off, take the thing apart, clean the membrane. Reassemble and put blobs of glue where the melted plastic bits were. If you have a drill press, counter-sink the holes on the underside of the metal plate first; it'll give the glue more plastic to adhere to. If gluing doesn't work out... urgh. The switch bodies do seem to have a little lip around the edges where they rest up against the membrane, so it would be possible to slot metal bars down between the rows (secured at either end somehow to the metal 'baseplate' below) in order to keep the switches from falling out - but it would certainly be a bit of a project! Nasty keyboard, though! I expect mine will go the same way at some point :/ cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 24 20:43:29 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 18:43:29 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <55DBB75D.50900@att.net> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> <484598CB-9804-413D-A1C8-458F2B43F48E@cs.ubc.ca> <55D8AC4D.6090402@charter.net> <55D8C2BF.207@sydex.com> <55D8E644.9020406@bitsavers.org> <55D92282.5020509@sydex.com> <55DBB75D.50900@att.net> Message-ID: <55DBC841.2030403@sydex.com> On 08/24/2015 05:31 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > Actually, with a little digging on DTIC I found another reference > 9actaully several - the full manual is there - and ended up on NTIS > which shows it *still* available although when you click the link > the product number gives an error and suggests you contact customer > service:..... Al? > > > https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults.xhtml?searchQuery=ADA024912 Thanks for that--I ran into that one too. Considering that it's listed as a 9 track tape, how likely do you think that the good souls at NTIS even know what the heck that is--much less being able to provide it? --Chuck From shumaker at att.net Mon Aug 24 21:06:32 2015 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:06:32 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <55DBC841.2030403@sydex.com> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> <484598CB-9804-413D-A1C8-458F2B43F48E@cs.ubc.ca> <55D8AC4D.6090402@charter.net> <55D8C2BF.207@sydex.com> <55D8E644.9020406@bitsavers.org> <55D92282.5020509@sydex.com> <55DBB75D.50900@att.net> <55DBC841.2030403@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55DBCDA8.7060301@att.net> On 8/24/2015 6:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/24/2015 05:31 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > >> Actually, with a little digging on DTIC I found another reference >> 9actaully several - the full manual is there - and ended up on NTIS >> which shows it *still* available although when you click the link >> the product number gives an error and suggests you contact customer >> service:..... Al? >> >> >> https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults.xhtml?searchQuery=ADA024912 >> > > Thanks for that--I ran into that one too. > > Considering that it's listed as a 9 track tape, how likely do you > think that the good souls at NTIS even know what the heck that > is--much less being able to provide it? > > --Chuck > > No clue - but I've found some seriously old stuff lurking there in the past. If anyone would know tape it ought to be these folks. The fact that it's still in the catalog is encouraging. Perhaps they archived it to different media and didn't update the link - certainly worth an inquiry. Did your DTIC search catch the user manual? Steve From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 21:13:38 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 21:13:38 -0500 Subject: Osborne O1 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: <55DBC484.6070800@gmail.com> References: <55DBC484.6070800@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jules, Oh, no worries - I'd have taken it in this condition whether or not you were aware of the issues. After all, it +was+ a gift, and a very generous one at that; not just in terms of materiel, but in terms of your time spent, as well. On the bright side, I may be able to send you some bootable media, if you still need it. Another kind cctalk'er sent me a pair of bootable O1 discs, one DBASEII and one WordStar. I figure I'll go the solvent flush route, using tri-chlor, and see where that goes. But honestly, I don't know what could be causing so many 'stuck' keys on this thing! One would hope for (easily clear-able) contaminants, but it might be more than that. As a previous poster noted, he felt it may be due to the cord keeping several keys depressed during storage. That might be worth investigating, if I can find a kb matrix map in the (incomplete!) service docs. As ever, my fear is that the materials won't withstand the solvent, even if it's tri-chlor, and I'll end up washing away every hope of survival. Water might be OK, but I'd have to grab a couple gals of distilled first. Ultimately, the dreaded R&R is the option. Not sure if I have the patience... -L On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 08/23/2015 03:28 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> Howdy gents, >> >> Working away on the recently acquired Osborne 1. Seems there's something >> wrong with the KB - and if I didn't know better, I'd say it's a case of >> shorted contacts. >> >> The KB connector is 24 pins, double row header like a short floppy or IDE >> header. >> >> On the KB side, there are two "shorted" groups of pins. Group one is 2X >> shortred pins, group two is 5X shorted pins. >> > > I just prodded mine with a meter, and the only continuity I get is between > pins 2 and 23 (numbered as follows, looking into the keyboard connector, > with the cable exiting toward the right) > > _____________________________________ > | nc 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 nc nc | > | nc 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 nc |====== > ------------------------------------- > > Thing is, this KB is not really built to be serviced, best as I can tell. >> > > Yeah, I just opened the case on mine, and it's a pretty nasty design - > cheap as possible :-( Wish I'd tried that keyboard on my system now so you > knew it had problems! > > With such limited access, I don't see many avenues other than flushing with >> solvent(s) and hoping for the best. >> > > Yeah, I'd do that first - or maybe soapy water followed by a flush with > distilled, then leave it for a week or so to dry. Can't hurt. > > If that doesn't work... break the melted plastic bits off, take the thing > apart, clean the membrane. Reassemble and put blobs of glue where the > melted plastic bits were. If you have a drill press, counter-sink the holes > on the underside of the metal plate first; it'll give the glue more plastic > to adhere to. > > If gluing doesn't work out... urgh. The switch bodies do seem to have a > little lip around the edges where they rest up against the membrane, so it > would be possible to slot metal bars down between the rows (secured at > either end somehow to the metal 'baseplate' below) in order to keep the > switches from falling out - but it would certainly be a bit of a project! > > Nasty keyboard, though! I expect mine will go the same way at some point :/ > > cheers > > Jules > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 21:33:06 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 21:33:06 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: RIP Robert "Bob" Hall, Jr. (Jan 5th 1957 - July 28th 2015) Message-ID: Friends, I know some of us knew Bob Hall, an amazing character, who spent the last decade of his life crusading for the restoration of US manufacturing and railing against the perils of the Giant in the East - among other things. Sadly, I learned only today that Bob passed away on July 28th, 2015, due to intractable pancreatic cancer. Our friend was a tender 61 years in age. You can find a page, with an obit here: http://tinyurl.com/paspfax Rest in Peace, Bob.. your 'dispatches from the front' will be missed. We need more voices like we had known in Bob hall. (It seems all of his content has been removed from FB and YT. Might still remain in archive.org) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 24 21:44:53 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:44:53 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <55DBCDA8.7060301@att.net> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> <484598CB-9804-413D-A1C8-458F2B43F48E@cs.ubc.ca> <55D8AC4D.6090402@charter.net> <55D8C2BF.207@sydex.com> <55D8E644.9020406@bitsavers.org> <55D92282.5020509@sydex.com> <55DBB75D.50900@att.net> <55DBC841.2030403@sydex.com> <55DBCDA8.7060301@att.net> Message-ID: <55DBD6A5.3090901@sydex.com> On 08/24/2015 07:06 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > > No clue - but I've found some seriously old stuff lurking there in > the past. If anyone would know tape it ought to be these folks. The > fact that it's still in the catalog is encouraging. Perhaps they > archived it to different media and didn't update the link - > certainly worth an inquiry. Did your DTIC search catch the user > manual? I'll start by firing off an inquiry and see if they can stop laughing long enough to respond. --Chuck From shumaker at att.net Mon Aug 24 21:46:30 2015 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:46:30 -0700 Subject: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <55DBD6A5.3090901@sydex.com> References: <012801d0dc66$970e3510$c52a9f30$@net> <55D7DCF8.8000905@pico-systems.com> <015a01d0dc9a$4b15ab50$e14101f0$@net> <484598CB-9804-413D-A1C8-458F2B43F48E@cs.ubc.ca> <55D8AC4D.6090402@charter.net> <55D8C2BF.207@sydex.com> <55D8E644.9020406@bitsavers.org> <55D92282.5020509@sydex.com> <55DBB75D.50900@att.net> <55DBC841.2030403@sydex.com> <55DBCDA8.7060301@att.net> <55DBD6A5.3090901@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55DBD706.1010704@att.net> On 8/24/2015 7:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/24/2015 07:06 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > >> >> No clue - but I've found some seriously old stuff lurking there in >> the past. If anyone would know tape it ought to be these folks. The >> fact that it's still in the catalog is encouraging. Perhaps they >> archived it to different media and didn't update the link - >> certainly worth an inquiry. Did your DTIC search catch the user >> manual? > > I'll start by firing off an inquiry and see if they can stop laughing > long enough to respond. > > --Chuck > > and report back! I'm curious to know. steve From shumaker at att.net Mon Aug 24 21:50:20 2015 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:50:20 -0700 Subject: So, what's the deal with DigiBarn? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55DBD7EC.8060708@att.net> On 8/24/2015 3:30 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Hey all- > > I've always wondered about this. > > Their website hasn't seen a proper update in years, and it looks like they > have a lot of choice hardware donated to them that they may not be > maintaining... Is it open to the public? > > Are people actively volunteering there to make sure this stuff is shown > some love and not falling into disrepair? Keeping leaky batteries, > capacitors, rust at bay, and doing repairs? Imaging disks? > > They have some very worthwhile examples of machines but I haven't seen much > from them as an organization in years! > > I'm sure lots of people would be willing to help if they are > under-resourced. > > Thanks, > > - Ian > > I run into the owner occasionally. Between family commitments and significant work related travel, he's been over committed for over two years. Bruce lurks here when he has time/access. steve From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 24 22:20:51 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:20:51 -0700 Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group In-Reply-To: <000601d0de82$4ed15200$ec73f600$@classiccmp.org> References: <55DB2C61.50801@bitsavers.org>, , <000601d0de82$4ed15200$ec73f600$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I see. Why would they do that? Dwight > From: jwest at classiccmp.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: FYI gmane cctalk group > Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 10:34:03 -0500 > > That means they are copying the list without permission. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight > Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 10:22 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: FYI gmane cctalk group > > > > > Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 07:38:25 -0700 > > From: aek at bitsavers.org > > To: General at classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group > > > > just noticed this > > > > > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.announce/23246/match=gmane+comp+hardware+vint > age > > > > From: Mailing List Manager gmane.org> > > Subject: New group gmane.comp.hardware.vintage > > Newsgroups: gmane.announce > > Date: 2015-05-19 10:57:19 GMT (13 weeks, 6 days, 3 hours and 39 minutes > ago) > > > > The newsgroup gmane.comp.hardware.vintage has been created. > > The subject of the first message posted was > > > > Subject: Re: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A > > > > This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing list. > > > > Description: Classic Computing Talk (non-public). > > > > > > > > > What does " This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing > list."mean?Dwight = > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 22:35:14 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 22:35:14 -0500 Subject: [GreenKeys] Somewhat OT: RIP Robert "Bob" Hall, Jr. (Jan 5th 1957 - July 28th 2015) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Virgil / anyone who might know & care, I'd known the man for well over a decade - first made his acquaintance when he became a customer of the boutique Hi-End audio outfit I used to work for. Spent a lot of phone-time working with him, trying to get various issues sorted out in his system. Only met in person on one occasion, when he came to visit in St. Paul.. But that was all well over ten years back, and we've stayed in-touch - loosely at times - ever since. A few years back, when car trouble stranded my wife in the Chicagoland area, Bob was nice enough to "take over" and see her through to a safe place to stay, and get her vehicle repaired. At that time, it had been at least two or three years since we'd last spoken, and the moment I called on him he was just "right there" to do whatever was needed to help - and quite late at night, for that matter. I think I phoned him at around 11-12PM. Since those days, we'd mostly kept in touch via his dollartothegiant at gmail dispatches - but all of that stopped, very suddenly, about two months ago. It was around that time when I received a note from him, mentioning that he was in hospital with end-stage pancreatic cancer. Of course, I mailed him immediately - and he called me the next morning, but I missed it. Then we played a round of tag' - and that was the last of him. Really sorry to know he's gone. We need more men like him, in this great nation of ours. On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Virgil Bierschwale wrote: > I've got his stuff here at Keep America At Work. > > I knew he was bad, but I had NOT heard this and I'm very sorry to hear > this. > > http://keepamericaatwork.com/category/bob-hall/ > > I never had the opportunity to meet him, but we exchanged emails > frequently and I wish I had been able to meet him. > > Virgil > Keep America At Work > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 9:33 PM, drlegendre . > wrote: > >> Friends, >> >> I know some of us knew Bob Hall, an amazing character, who spent the last >> decade of his life crusading for the restoration of US manufacturing and >> railing against the perils of the Giant in the East - among other things. >> >> Sadly, I learned only today that Bob passed away on July 28th, 2015, due >> to intractable pancreatic cancer. Our friend was a tender 61 years in age. >> >> You can find a page, with an obit here: http://tinyurl.com/paspfax >> >> Rest in Peace, Bob.. your 'dispatches from the front' will be missed. We >> need more voices like we had known in Bob hall. >> >> (It seems all of his content has been removed from FB and YT. Might still >> remain in archive.org) >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________ >> GreenKeys mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:GreenKeys at mailman.qth.net >> >> 2002-to-present greenkeys archive: >> http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/ >> 1998-to-2001 >> greenkeys archive: >> http://mailman.qth.net/archive/greenkeys/greenkeys.html >> Randy Guttery's 2001-to-2009 GreenKeys Search Tool: >> http://comcents.com/tty/greenkeyssearch.html >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> > > From doug at doughq.com Mon Aug 24 23:10:05 2015 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:10:05 +1000 Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group In-Reply-To: References: <55DB2C61.50801@bitsavers.org> <000601d0de82$4ed15200$ec73f600$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <55DBEA9D.7010400@doughq.com> This about screen pretty much sums it up. http://gmane.org/about.php ----------------- Free software is mainly developed on mailing lists. Mailing lists have many advantages over other forms of communication, but they have two weaknesses: It's difficult to follow discussions in a sensible way, and mailing list archives (when they exist) have a tendency to disappear over time. Severalmailing list archives exist, but these are all hidden under a web interface. Reading mail that way is not convenient. Reading mail as if it were news is convenient. This is what Gmane offers. Mailing lists are funneled into news groups. This isn't a new idea; several mail-to-news gateways exist. What's new with Gmane is that no messages are ever expired from the server, and the gateway is bidirectional. You can post to some of these mailing lists without being subscribed to them yourself, depending on whether the mailing lists allow non-subscribers to post or not. In addition, Gmane doesspam detection ,cross-post handling , has aTMDA-fueled encryption/forwarding service , aweb interface , respectsX-No-Archive , suppliesRSS feeds , usesSPF , gatherstraffic statistics , and has a real-time indexingsearch engine . Not all mailing lists allow non-subscribers to post, and some are moderated. Gmane requires that users post to Gmane groups using a valid e-mail address, and requires a one-timeauthorization per group. To read the mailing lists stored in Gmane, point your news reader tonews.gmane.org . To get a new mailing list added,use the subscription form . Almost any mailing list can be added. Just includesubscription information . Mailing list archives can beimported into Gmane. Discussion about the Gmane hierarchy takes place on thegmane.discuss newsgroup. At present, the Gmane hierarchy is heavily dominated by computer-related mailing lists, which reflects the interests of the initial user base. However, Gmane is not meant to be a service exclusively for IT people. Feel free to suggest non-computer-related mailing lists. To get in touch with the Gmane administrators, send a mail toLars Magne Ingebrigtsen . Gmane has been in full operation since February 11th 2002, after a one month test period. And the "g" in "Gmane" is silent. Background I've tried to gather some thoughts on Gmane here. It's been running now for almost half a year, and it's about time to summarize the experience somewhat. My main reason for setting up Gmane in the first place was my annoyance with the concept of mailing lists. I've always preferred newsgroups -- they have a nice interface; they can be archived in a convenient format; and they can be searched (via DejaNews/Google). Mailing lists have a lousy interface, and if they have an archive at all, it's always hidden behind some web-based monstrosity. And they never allow searching. So I started Gmane, and gathered the mailing lists I was vaguely interested in. Many, many other lists were requested by other users and added by me and the other Gmane administrators. There's now more than two thousand lists here. If I'm looking for discussion on any given topic (for instance -- buffer overflows in the libc resolver library), I just have my news reader display all the Gmane groups, and, more often than not, all the relevant mailing lists are already there, and I find what I'm looking for. ------------------------ Makes sense to me :-) Doug On 25/08/2015 1:20 PM, dwight wrote: > I see. Why would they do that? > Dwight > > >> From: jwest at classiccmp.org >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: RE: FYI gmane cctalk group >> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 10:34:03 -0500 >> >> That means they are copying the list without permission. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight >> Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 10:22 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: RE: FYI gmane cctalk group >> >> >> >>> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 07:38:25 -0700 >>> From: aek at bitsavers.org >>> To: General at classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group >>> >>> just noticed this >>> >>> >> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.announce/23246/match=gmane+comp+hardware+vint >> age >>> From: Mailing List Manager gmane.org> >>> Subject: New group gmane.comp.hardware.vintage >>> Newsgroups: gmane.announce >>> Date: 2015-05-19 10:57:19 GMT (13 weeks, 6 days, 3 hours and 39 minutes >> ago) >>> The newsgroup gmane.comp.hardware.vintage has been created. >>> The subject of the first message posted was >>> >>> Subject: Re: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A >>> >>> This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing list. >>> >>> Description: Classic Computing Talk (non-public). >>> >>> >>> >>> >> What does " This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing >> list."mean?Dwight = >> >> > > From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 23:25:16 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 23:25:16 -0500 Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group In-Reply-To: <55DB2C61.50801@bitsavers.org> References: <55DB2C61.50801@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20150825042516.GC25814@gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015, Al Kossow wrote: > just noticed this > > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.announce/23246/match=gmane+comp+hardware+vintage > > From: Mailing List Manager gmane.org> > Subject: New group gmane.comp.hardware.vintage > Newsgroups: gmane.announce > Date: 2015-05-19 10:57:19 GMT (13 weeks, 6 days, 3 hours and 39 minutes ago) > > The newsgroup gmane.comp.hardware.vintage has been created. > The subject of the first message posted was > > Subject: Re: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A > > This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing list. > > Description: Classic Computing Talk (non-public). > > > > We're also on http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&r=1&w=2 . -- Eric Christopherson From vbiersch at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 21:38:26 2015 From: vbiersch at gmail.com (Virgil Bierschwale) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 21:38:26 -0500 Subject: [GreenKeys] Somewhat OT: RIP Robert "Bob" Hall, Jr. (Jan 5th 1957 - July 28th 2015) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've got his stuff here at Keep America At Work. I knew he was bad, but I had NOT heard this and I'm very sorry to hear this. http://keepamericaatwork.com/category/bob-hall/ I never had the opportunity to meet him, but we exchanged emails frequently and I wish I had been able to meet him. Virgil Keep America At Work On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 9:33 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Friends, > > I know some of us knew Bob Hall, an amazing character, who spent the last > decade of his life crusading for the restoration of US manufacturing and > railing against the perils of the Giant in the East - among other things. > > Sadly, I learned only today that Bob passed away on July 28th, 2015, due > to intractable pancreatic cancer. Our friend was a tender 61 years in age. > > You can find a page, with an obit here: http://tinyurl.com/paspfax > > Rest in Peace, Bob.. your 'dispatches from the front' will be missed. We > need more voices like we had known in Bob hall. > > (It seems all of his content has been removed from FB and YT. Might still > remain in archive.org) > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > GreenKeys mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:GreenKeys at mailman.qth.net > > 2002-to-present greenkeys archive: > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/ > 1998-to-2001 greenkeys archive: > http://mailman.qth.net/archive/greenkeys/greenkeys.html > Randy Guttery's 2001-to-2009 GreenKeys Search Tool: > http://comcents.com/tty/greenkeyssearch.html > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Aug 25 00:04:43 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 01:04:43 -0400 Subject: [GreenKeys] Somewhat OT: RIP Robert "Bob" Hall, Jr. (Jan 5th 1957 - July ... Message-ID: <12191c.168d1d8a.430d516b@aol.com> sad to lose a good person at a young age.... Ed# In a message dated 8/24/2015 9:47:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, vbiersch at gmail.com writes: I've got his stuff here at Keep America At Work. I knew he was bad, but I had NOT heard this and I'm very sorry to hear this. http://keepamericaatwork.com/category/bob-hall/ I never had the opportunity to meet him, but we exchanged emails frequently and I wish I had been able to meet him. Virgil Keep America At Work On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 9:33 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Friends, > > I know some of us knew Bob Hall, an amazing character, who spent the last > decade of his life crusading for the restoration of US manufacturing and > railing against the perils of the Giant in the East - among other things. > > Sadly, I learned only today that Bob passed away on July 28th, 2015, due > to intractable pancreatic cancer. Our friend was a tender 61 years in age. > > You can find a page, with an obit here: http://tinyurl.com/paspfax > > Rest in Peace, Bob.. your 'dispatches from the front' will be missed. We > need more voices like we had known in Bob hall. > > (It seems all of his content has been removed from FB and YT. Might still > remain in archive.org) > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > GreenKeys mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:GreenKeys at mailman.qth.net > > 2002-to-present greenkeys archive: > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/ > 1998-to-2001 greenkeys archive: > http://mailman.qth.net/archive/greenkeys/greenkeys.html > Randy Guttery's 2001-to-2009 GreenKeys Search Tool: > http://comcents.com/tty/greenkeyssearch.html > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Aug 25 00:31:54 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 01:31:54 -0400 Subject: Side issue Bevatron PDP-8 Classic & teletype control? and great print/scan cheap Message-ID: <121b19.7d02afb5.430d57ca@aol.com> Any Northern Calif folk (current or Ex) that might have been around the BEVATRON - Ok this thing had pdp-8 computers ( the classic first model rack mounted) and teletypes hooked to it I am finding very little info on it... Just scanning stuff on Crocker's Cracker (the 60 incher) here tonight and putting together blueprints. if you want a from the store solution try the hp 7612 scans and prints in excess of 11x17 on sale less then 200 bucks! I highly recommend the Microsoft labs stitcher program. I have had some scans with some pretty crappy alignment and I made one giant beauty of a blueprint. The 7612 also prints beautiful 11x17 color prints to go in displays here for the museum. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Aug 25 02:45:35 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 00:45:35 -0700 Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group In-Reply-To: <55DBEA9D.7010400@doughq.com> References: <55DB2C61.50801@bitsavers.org> <000601d0de82$4ed15200$ec73f600$@classiccmp.org> <55DBEA9D.7010400@doughq.com> Message-ID: <55DC1D1F.7080008@jwsss.com> Archive.org was supposed to host these, so the archival is good w/o gmane. However in googleing and verifying about that, I ran across something called archive-org.com which is hosted by a "private" registration of some sort, so I don't know if it has a damn thing to do with archive.org or not. It has this list on it already. And wants me to register to get an account for access. If it is a virus bait site for these well meaning "free" archives, that is precisely why there needs to be authorized archives and not just anyone who feels like it. My main concern is that you can find out the history of my email addresses back to my first one. The email addresses are not obscured anywhere in them. So it is easy if someone wants to harvest email address right off to do so. Also I don't necessarily generate my comments here for open archiving and exploitation, especially by one like the above which seems to be commercial once you get into it. Jay isn't going anywhere, and the archives are in good hands for now. And gmane as I understood it was more of a bridge than an archive at the start. With the destruction of usenet archives by google it did probably keep some amount of that, but there is a huge amount lost in that transaction, so it isn't necessarily to be trusted that cctalk will be "interesting". Also injecting the list into the usenet mess violates any rights the authors here have in who reads the discussion. Of course who can chime in is controlled, but I'm just paranoid enough I'd not like to have all this firing off into all the usenet crevasses that I know exist w/o come control. Just my $0.02. worth. Jim On 8/24/2015 9:10 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > This about screen pretty much sums it up. > > http://gmane.org/about.php > > ----------------- > > Free software is mainly developed on mailing lists. Mailing lists have > many advantages over other forms of communication, but they have two > weaknesses: It's difficult to follow discussions in a sensible way, > and mailing list archives (when they exist) have a tendency to > disappear over time. > > Severalmailing list archives exist, but > these are all hidden under a web interface. Reading mail that way is > not convenient. Reading mail as if it were news is convenient. > > This is what Gmane offers. Mailing lists are funneled into news > groups. This isn't a new idea; several mail-to-news gateways exist. > What's new with Gmane is that no messages are ever expired from the > server, and the gateway is bidirectional. You can post to some of > these mailing lists without being subscribed to them yourself, > depending on whether the mailing lists allow non-subscribers to post > or not. > > In addition, Gmane doesspam detection > ,cross-post handling > , has aTMDA-fueled encryption/forwarding > service , aweb interface > , respectsX-No-Archive > , suppliesRSS feeds > , usesSPF , > gatherstraffic statistics , and has a > real-time indexingsearch engine . > > Not all mailing lists allow non-subscribers to post, and some are > moderated. Gmane requires that users post to Gmane groups using a > valid e-mail address, and requires a one-timeauthorization > per group. > > To read the mailing lists stored in Gmane, point your news reader > tonews.gmane.org . > > To get a new mailing list added,use the subscription form > . Almost any mailing list can be > added. Just includesubscription information > . Mailing list archives can beimported > into Gmane. > > Discussion about the Gmane hierarchy takes place on thegmane.discuss > newsgroup. > > At present, the Gmane hierarchy is heavily dominated by > computer-related mailing lists, which reflects the interests of the > initial user base. However, Gmane is not meant to be a service > exclusively for IT people. Feel free to suggest non-computer-related > mailing lists. > > To get in touch with the Gmane administrators, send a mail toLars > Magne Ingebrigtsen . > > Gmane has been in full operation since February 11th 2002, after a one > month test period. And the "g" in "Gmane" is silent. > > > Background > > I've tried to gather some thoughts on Gmane here. It's been running > now for almost half a year, and it's about time to summarize the > experience somewhat. > > My main reason for setting up Gmane in the first place was my > annoyance with the concept of mailing lists. I've always preferred > newsgroups -- they have a nice interface; they can be archived in a > convenient format; and they can be searched (via DejaNews/Google). > Mailing lists have a lousy interface, and if they have an archive at > all, it's always hidden behind some web-based monstrosity. And they > never allow searching. > > So I started Gmane, and gathered the mailing lists I was vaguely > interested in. Many, many other lists were requested by other users > and added by me and the other Gmane administrators. There's now more > than two thousand lists here. If I'm looking for discussion on any > given topic (for instance -- buffer overflows in the libc resolver > library), I just have my news reader display all the Gmane groups, > and, more often than not, all the relevant mailing lists are already > there, and I find what I'm looking for. > > ------------------------ > > Makes sense to me :-) > > Doug > > > > On 25/08/2015 1:20 PM, dwight wrote: >> I see. Why would they do that? >> Dwight >> >>> From: jwest at classiccmp.org >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> Subject: RE: FYI gmane cctalk group >>> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 10:34:03 -0500 >>> >>> That means they are copying the list without permission. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight >>> Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 10:22 AM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> Subject: RE: FYI gmane cctalk group >>> >>> >>>> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 07:38:25 -0700 >>>> From: aek at bitsavers.org >>>> To: General at classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic >>>> Posts >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org >>>> Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group >>>> >>>> just noticed this >>>> >>>> >>> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.announce/23246/match=gmane+comp+hardware+vint >>> >>> age >>>> From: Mailing List Manager gmane.org> >>>> Subject: New group gmane.comp.hardware.vintage >>>> Newsgroups: gmane.announce >>>> Date: 2015-05-19 10:57:19 GMT (13 weeks, 6 days, 3 hours and 39 >>>> minutes >>> ago) >>>> The newsgroup gmane.comp.hardware.vintage has been created. >>>> The subject of the first message posted was >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A >>>> >>>> This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing list. >>>> >>>> Description: Classic Computing Talk (non-public). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> What does " This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing >>> list."mean?Dwight = >>> >>> >> >> > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Aug 25 04:03:10 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 11:03:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group In-Reply-To: <55DBEA9D.7010400@doughq.com> References: <55DB2C61.50801@bitsavers.org> <000601d0de82$4ed15200$ec73f600$@classiccmp.org> <55DBEA9D.7010400@doughq.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Aug 2015, Doug Jackson wrote: > This about screen pretty much sums it up. > > http://gmane.org/about.php [...] > Severalmailing list archives exist, but these are > all hidden under a web interface. Reading mail that way is not convenient. > Reading mail as if it were news is convenient. [...] > To read the mailing lists stored in Gmane, point your news reader > tonews.gmane.org . [...] Honestly, I would rather prefer cctalk being a proper NNTP newsgroup than a mailing list. Newsgroups have all what is needed to sort and follow discussions, have proper threading etc. Mailing lists are OK, but I don't really like them. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Aug 25 04:11:30 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 11:11:30 +0200 (CEST) Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group In-Reply-To: <55DC1D1F.7080008@jwsss.com> References: <55DB2C61.50801@bitsavers.org> <000601d0de82$4ed15200$ec73f600$@classiccmp.org> <55DBEA9D.7010400@doughq.com> <55DC1D1F.7080008@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Aug 2015, jwsmobile wrote: > Also injecting the list into the usenet mess violates any rights the authors > here have in who reads the discussion. Of course who can chime in is > controlled, but I'm just paranoid enough I'd not like to have all this firing > off into all the usenet crevasses that I know exist w/o come control. So what? I don't like Google archiving my messages, but what can you do? I'd prefer to forbid Google to obfuscate my mail addresses in my postings they archive. And I'd like to control many more things, but you can't. What I worry the least about is having my messages injected into NNTP groups. After all, this is a public list, anyone can read it. > Just my $0.02. worth. And my 0.02 EUR. Christian From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Aug 25 06:06:09 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:06:09 +0100 Subject: Front Panel Progress - 8/e (type A & B) e/f and 8/m Update Message-ID: <55DC4C21.2000405@btinternet.com> Hi Guys! I now have the (hopefully) final artwork for all four PDP-8 front panel variations. I have made up a display file. The file shows the combined black positive master for white lines, white text and logos for all four designs. There can be up to five layers and hence screens for each panel. The file is in .svg format because I use Inkscape to do most of the work. Let me know who would like a copy Regards Rod From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 06:52:32 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 06:52:32 -0500 Subject: Osborne O1 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: References: <55DBC484.6070800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55DC5700.7010304@gmail.com> On 08/24/2015 09:13 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > On the bright side, I may be able to send you some bootable media, if you > still need it. Thanks for the offer, but I definitely have it somewhere - I'm just not sure where! Eventually I'll have the PC set up to write images again anyway (I'm just reorganizing my work/storage space at the moment so it's a bit of a disaster area) > I figure I'll go the solvent flush route, using tri-chlor, and see where > that goes. But honestly, I don't know what could be causing so many 'stuck' > keys on this thing! Do any of the keys feel different? I assume there's a sponge pad on the bottom of each key to produce the right feel when the key is pressed - I wonder if something's been spilled in yours at some point, and some of those pads have expanded and/or gone hard... although I suppose it could just be age-related deterioration. > As ever, my fear is that the materials won't withstand the solvent, even if > it's tri-chlor, and I'll end up washing away every hope of survival. Water > might be OK, but I'd have to grab a couple gals of distilled first. Well, if there is sponge in there and it's gone bad then I suppose opening the thing up is the only solution anyway :( > Ultimately, the dreaded R&R is the option. Not sure if I have the > patience... Yup, it'd certainly be a job. Unfortunately I don't have the contact info for the guy who took the third one of these machines, but I suppose he may surface on the list at some point. It's possible that machine was snafu in such a way that there might be a surplus keyboard available... cheers Jules From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Aug 25 07:17:41 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 08:17:41 -0400 Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group In-Reply-To: <55DC1D1F.7080008@jwsss.com> References: <55DB2C61.50801@bitsavers.org> <000601d0de82$4ed15200$ec73f600$@classiccmp.org> <55DBEA9D.7010400@doughq.com> <55DC1D1F.7080008@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <9483F519-6EE8-470D-8E36-C1B3E6AE48D9@comcast.net> > On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:45 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > Archive.org was supposed to host these, so the archival is good w/o gmane. > > However in googleing and verifying about that, I ran across something called archive-org.com which is hosted by a "private" registration of some sort, so I don't know if it has a damn thing to do with archive.org or not. It has this list on it already. And wants me to register to get an account for access. > > If it is a virus bait site for these well meaning "free" archives, that is precisely why there needs to be authorized archives and not just anyone who feels like it. Why? What does "authorized" have to do with the integrity of the data? If you want data with integrity, apply an integrity mechanism. That's why digital signatures were invented. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 08:18:08 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 09:18:08 -0400 Subject: So, what's the deal with DigiBarn? In-Reply-To: <55DBD7EC.8060708@att.net> References: <55DBD7EC.8060708@att.net> Message-ID: I have been there before, Bruce gave a tour of the museum. Worth the visit when it's open if you get the chance. The items are not powered on and generally speaking items are on picnic tables with red/white tablecloths. There is also a bus called "Further" on the property and a pg pen. It's kind of like a mountain farm with historical computers in the barn. b On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 10:50 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > On 8/24/2015 3:30 PM, Ian Finder wrote: >> >> Hey all- >> >> I've always wondered about this. >> >> Their website hasn't seen a proper update in years, and it looks like they >> have a lot of choice hardware donated to them that they may not be >> maintaining... Is it open to the public? >> >> Are people actively volunteering there to make sure this stuff is shown >> some love and not falling into disrepair? Keeping leaky batteries, >> capacitors, rust at bay, and doing repairs? Imaging disks? >> >> They have some very worthwhile examples of machines but I haven't seen >> much >> from them as an organization in years! >> >> I'm sure lots of people would be willing to help if they are >> under-resourced. >> >> Thanks, >> >> - Ian >> >> > > I run into the owner occasionally. Between family commitments and > significant work related travel, he's been over committed for over two > years. Bruce lurks here when he has time/access. > > steve -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 25 08:45:14 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 06:45:14 -0700 Subject: So, what's the deal with DigiBarn? In-Reply-To: References: , <55DBD7EC.8060708@att.net>, Message-ID: Being a hobby project, Bruce gets distracted by earning money and working on other projects. The barn is not the best place for things as things get dusty. Most things are in visible storage. Things could use cataloging. I'm sure Bruce would love to have volunteers to help keep things in order. It is all about free time. Dwight > From: billdegnan at gmail.com > > I have been there before, Bruce gave a tour of the museum. Worth the > visit when it's open if you get the chance. The items are not powered > on and generally speaking items are on picnic tables with red/white > tablecloths. There is also a bus called "Further" on the property and > a pg pen. It's kind of like a mountain farm with historical computers > in the barn. b > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 10:50 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > > On 8/24/2015 3:30 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > >> > >> Hey all- > >> > >> I've always wondered about this. > >> > >> Their website hasn't seen a proper update in years, and it looks like they > >> have a lot of choice hardware donated to them that they may not be > >> maintaining... Is it open to the public? > >> > >> Are people actively volunteering there to make sure this stuff is shown > >> some love and not falling into disrepair? Keeping leaky batteries, > >> capacitors, rust at bay, and doing repairs? Imaging disks? > >> > >> They have some very worthwhile examples of machines but I haven't seen > >> much > >> from them as an organization in years! > >> > >> I'm sure lots of people would be willing to help if they are > >> under-resourced. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> - Ian > >> > >> > > > > I run into the owner occasionally. Between family commitments and > > significant work related travel, he's been over committed for over two > > years. Bruce lurks here when he has time/access. > > > > steve > > > > -- > Bill > vintagecomputer.net From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Aug 25 11:43:04 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 11:43:04 -0500 Subject: Side issue Bevatron PDP-8 Classic & teletype control? and great print/scan cheap In-Reply-To: <121b19.7d02afb5.430d57ca@aol.com> References: <121b19.7d02afb5.430d57ca@aol.com> Message-ID: <55DC9B18.4030902@pico-systems.com> On 08/25/2015 12:31 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > Any Northern Calif folk (current or Ex) that might have been around > the BEVATRON - Ok this thing had pdp-8 computers ( the > classic first model rack mounted) and teletypes hooked to it > I used to go out to do experiments at Lawrence Berkeley Labs in the 90's, they were dismantling the HUGE round building the Bevatron had been in. I think most of the actual Bevatron was long gone. A guy I work with currently did work on the Bevalac back then. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 25 11:49:41 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 09:49:41 -0700 Subject: Naval COBOL Audit tests Message-ID: <55DC9CA5.4010609@sydex.com> Well, so much for catalog listings. One can only wonder about other government documents--this was an important one historically. I am not surprised. NTIS's response: Dear Sir, I have checked our databases and we no longer have this item available. Thank you, Mary Brisbois Customer Contact Representative National Technical Information Service US Dept of Commerce P: 800-553-6847 or direct 703-605-6071 F: 703-605-6900 www.ntis.gov From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 11:59:51 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 11:59:51 -0500 Subject: ColourPET Message-ID: I just noticed the September 2015 issue of Nuts & Volts has, right on its cover, a project to outfit a Commodore PET with color (digital RGBI) output. It requires a PET with the Universal Dynamic PET motherboard, the one that could be switched between 40 and 80 columns via jumpers; the actual output is only in 40 because of memory limitations. The specific project in the magazine allows four 16 foreground and 16 background colors per pixel, but it says the author has also made it output 8-bit analog RGB foregrounds with one fixed background color. -- Eric Christopherson From scaron at umich.edu Tue Aug 25 12:45:12 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:45:12 -0400 Subject: ColourPET In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nuts and Volts is a neat little magazine ... I had a subscription for a while back when I was in high school ... I ought to re-up one of these days. Best, Sean On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 12:59 PM, Eric Christopherson < echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > I just noticed the September 2015 issue of Nuts & Volts has, right on > its cover, a project to outfit a Commodore PET with color (digital > RGBI) output. It requires a PET with the Universal Dynamic PET > motherboard, the one that could be switched between 40 and 80 columns > via jumpers; the actual output is only in 40 because of memory > limitations. The specific project in the magazine allows four 16 > foreground and 16 background colors per pixel, but it says the author > has also made it output 8-bit analog RGB foregrounds with one fixed > background color. > > -- > Eric Christopherson > From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 13:25:51 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:25:51 -0500 Subject: Osborne O1 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: <55DC5700.7010304@gmail.com> References: <55DBC484.6070800@gmail.com> <55DC5700.7010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'll admit to being surprised at the cheapness of the keyboard. Here I expected to find a true mechanical type, like the early IBM machines - what I found is a step-down from the C-64. The switching side is what I'd term a 'membrane sandwich. There are three layers in the stack, with upper & lower layers forming the switch contact pairs. Sandwiched in the middle is a perforated insulator sheet, with a hole pattern that matches the switch contact pattern. Pressing on the right area of the stack unites the upper & lower contacts, temporarily closing the switch. So I suppose if a spilled liquid infiltrated the stack, perhaps drying and leaving a residue, it may have short-circuited any number of contact pads. But IIRC, I was measuring +very+ low resistance in the shorted pins. I'm not sure how even dried Coca-Cola could create that hard of a short.. so I need to take some more careful readings. If they are truly hard-shorted, I'd tend to look for something other than a contamination issue. On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 6:52 AM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 08/24/2015 09:13 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> On the bright side, I may be able to send you some bootable media, if you >> still need it. >> > > Thanks for the offer, but I definitely have it somewhere - I'm just not > sure where! Eventually I'll have the PC set up to write images again anyway > (I'm just reorganizing my work/storage space at the moment so it's a bit of > a disaster area) > > I figure I'll go the solvent flush route, using tri-chlor, and see where >> that goes. But honestly, I don't know what could be causing so many >> 'stuck' >> keys on this thing! >> > > Do any of the keys feel different? I assume there's a sponge pad on the > bottom of each key to produce the right feel when the key is pressed - I > wonder if something's been spilled in yours at some point, and some of > those pads have expanded and/or gone hard... although I suppose it could > just be age-related deterioration. > > As ever, my fear is that the materials won't withstand the solvent, even if >> it's tri-chlor, and I'll end up washing away every hope of survival. Water >> might be OK, but I'd have to grab a couple gals of distilled first. >> > > Well, if there is sponge in there and it's gone bad then I suppose opening > the thing up is the only solution anyway :( > > Ultimately, the dreaded R&R is the option. Not sure if I have the >> patience... >> > > Yup, it'd certainly be a job. Unfortunately I don't have the contact info > for the guy who took the third one of these machines, but I suppose he may > surface on the list at some point. It's possible that machine was snafu in > such a way that there might be a surplus keyboard available... > > cheers > > Jules > > From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 13:33:53 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:33:53 -0600 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 8/22/2015 4:11 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> In my mostly misspent youth, I once had the opportunity to visit a >> facility where a now obscure supercomputer was developed. The product >> manager was showing me around. .... > > That wasn't Astronautics' ZS, by any chance? No. I omitted the names to protect the innocent. And the guilty. From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Aug 25 13:34:58 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 18:34:58 +0000 Subject: Altair BASIC copyright [was RE: Larry Niven's Altair] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBC04D9@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Paul Koning Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 7:48 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Larry Niven's Altair > On Aug 20, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> On 8/20/2015 3:32 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: >>> I assume all the 8K, 4K BASICs are in public domain by now. The >>> demo for the kids will be the 15 minutes of paper tape, followed by >>> READY. >> Bad assumption. Things that were actually registered even if there >> was no notice, or published with a copyright notice would still be >> protected under U.S. copyright. > Depending on when. If it was published without notice, the key > question is whether publication occurred before Jan 1, 1978, or after. > After, notice does not matter; before, lack of notice means no > copyright. Sorry to take so long to chime in on all the rampant speculation, but I've had real work to attend to. The following is excerpted from the main source file of BASIC for the Altair, by Gates, Allen, and Davidoff. I have no further comment. 00100 MCSSIM(START) 00120 00140 TITLE BASIC MCS 8080 GATES/ALLEN/DAVIDOFF 00160 IFNDEF LENGTH, 00200 IF1,< 00220 IFE LENGTH, 00240 IFE LENGTH-1, 00260 IFE LENGTH-2, 00280 IFE STRING, 00300 IFN STRING, 00320 > 00340 SUBTTL VERSION 1.1 -- MORE FEATURES TO COME 00360 COMMENT * 00380 00400 --------- ---- -- ---- ----- --- ---- ----- 00420 COPYRIGHT 1975 BY BILL GATES AND PAUL ALLEN 00440 --------- ---- -- ---- ----- --- ---- ----- 00460 00480 00500 WRITTEN ORIGINALLY ON THE PDP-10 AT HARVARD FROM 00520 FEBRUARY 9 TO APRIL 27 00540 00560 PAUL ALLEN WROTE THE NON-RUNTIME STUFF. 00580 BILL GATES WROTE THE RUNTIME STUFF. 00600 MONTE DAVIDOFF WROTE THE MATH PACKAGE. 00620 00640 THINGS TO DO: 00641 SYNTAX PROBLEMS (OR) 00642 NICE ERRORS 00643 ALLOW ^W AND ^C IN LIST COMMAND 00646 TAPE I/O 00648 BUFFER I/O 00650 USR ?? 00652 ELSE 00660 USER DEFINED FUNCTIONS(MULTI-ARG,MULTI-LINE,STRINGS) 00680 MAKE STACK BOUNDARY STUFF EXACT 00700 (FOUT 24 FIN 14) 00720 PUNCH,DELETE,,, 00740 INLINE CONSTANT CONVERSION--MAKE IT WORK 00750 SIMPLE STRINGS 00760 * Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 13:42:34 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:42:34 -0500 Subject: ColourPET In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > The specific project in the magazine allows four 16 > foreground and 16 background colors per pixel, Sorry -- of course I meant "allows for 16 foreground and 16 background colors per character". The display is still only text. -- Eric Christopherson From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Aug 25 13:45:35 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:45:35 -0400 Subject: Altair BASIC copyright [was RE: Larry Niven's Altair] Message-ID: <135d1f.6314c889.430e11cf@aol.com> Looks like the big "C" to me! I have no idea about the Davidoff guy... But would you REALLY even want to spend the amount of money to argue this with the lawyers of Gates and Allen? Ed# , and 00380 00400 --------- ---- -- ---- ----- --- ---- ----- 00420 COPYRIGHT 1975 BY BILL GATES AND PAUL ALLEN 00440 --------- ---- -- ---- ----- --- ---- ----- In a message dated 8/25/2015 11:35:05 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org writes: From: Paul Koning Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 7:48 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Larry Niven's Altair > On Aug 20, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> On 8/20/2015 3:32 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: >>> I assume all the 8K, 4K BASICs are in public domain by now. The >>> demo for the kids will be the 15 minutes of paper tape, followed by >>> READY. >> Bad assumption. Things that were actually registered even if there >> was no notice, or published with a copyright notice would still be >> protected under U.S. copyright. > Depending on when. If it was published without notice, the key > question is whether publication occurred before Jan 1, 1978, or after. > After, notice does not matter; before, lack of notice means no > copyright. Sorry to take so long to chime in on all the rampant speculation, but I've had real work to attend to. The following is excerpted from the main source file of BASIC for the Altair, by Gates, Allen, and Davidoff. I have no further comment. 00100 MCSSIM(START) 00120 00140 TITLE BASIC MCS 8080 GATES/ALLEN/DAVIDOFF 00160 IFNDEF LENGTH, 00200 IF1,< 00220 IFE LENGTH, 00240 IFE LENGTH-1, 00260 IFE LENGTH-2, 00280 IFE STRING, 00300 IFN STRING, 00320 > 00340 SUBTTL VERSION 1.1 -- MORE FEATURES TO COME 00360 COMMENT * 00380 00400 --------- ---- -- ---- ----- --- ---- ----- 00420 COPYRIGHT 1975 BY BILL GATES AND PAUL ALLEN 00440 --------- ---- -- ---- ----- --- ---- ----- 00460 00480 00500 WRITTEN ORIGINALLY ON THE PDP-10 AT HARVARD FROM 00520 FEBRUARY 9 TO APRIL 27 00540 00560 PAUL ALLEN WROTE THE NON-RUNTIME STUFF. 00580 BILL GATES WROTE THE RUNTIME STUFF. 00600 MONTE DAVIDOFF WROTE THE MATH PACKAGE. 00620 00640 THINGS TO DO: 00641 SYNTAX PROBLEMS (OR) 00642 NICE ERRORS 00643 ALLOW ^W AND ^C IN LIST COMMAND 00646 TAPE I/O 00648 BUFFER I/O 00650 USR ?? 00652 ELSE 00660 USER DEFINED FUNCTIONS(MULTI-ARG,MULTI-LINE,STRINGS) 00680 MAKE STACK BOUNDARY STUFF EXACT 00700 (FOUT 24 FIN 14) 00720 PUNCH,DELETE,,, 00740 INLINE CONSTANT CONVERSION--MAKE IT WORK 00750 SIMPLE STRINGS 00760 * Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 25 14:06:33 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 19:06:33 +0000 Subject: Osborne O1 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: References: <55DBC484.6070800@gmail.com> <55DC5700.7010304@gmail.com>, Message-ID: > > I'll admit to being surprised at the cheapness of the keyboard. Here I > expected to find a true mechanical type, like the early IBM machines - what > I found is a step-down from the C-64. Depends one what you mean by 'early IBM machine'. The well-known type M used on the 5170 PC/AT [1] is of this sort of design [1] Yes I am well aware that the 5170 is not an early IBM machine in terms of IBMs total computer production. But a lot of people now think it is ancient. > > The switching side is what I'd term a 'membrane sandwich. There are three > layers in the stack, with upper & lower layers forming the switch contact > pairs. Sandwiched in the middle is a perforated insulator sheet, with a > hole pattern that matches the switch contact pattern. Pressing on the right > area of the stack unites the upper & lower contacts, temporarily closing > the switch. Another well-known keyboard with this type of design is the DEC LK201 (as used on the VT220, etc). I have taken both LK201s and IBM type Ms totally apart. The latter I managed to reassemble with screws. The former I never managed to get to work properly again, the plastic is just too thin to take screws, there is not enough to re-melt and no glue seemed to hold. > So I suppose if a spilled liquid infiltrated the stack, perhaps drying and > leaving a residue, it may have short-circuited any number of contact pads. > > But IIRC, I was measuring +very+ low resistance in the shorted pins. I'm > not sure how even dried Coca-Cola could create that hard of a short.. so I > need to take some more careful readings. If they are truly hard-shorted, > I'd tend to look for something other than a contamination issue. What bothers me about this design it that it relies on the the springiness of the plastic to open the contacts again. This seems like something that might fail with time so the sheets remain in contact. -tony From kelly at catcorner.org Tue Aug 25 14:25:17 2015 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 19:25:17 +0000 Subject: Altair BASIC copyright [was RE: Larry Niven's Altair] In-Reply-To: <135d1f.6314c889.430e11cf@aol.com> References: <135d1f.6314c889.430e11cf@aol.com> Message-ID: From: cctalk on behalf of COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 2:45 PM >But would you REALLY even want to spend the amount > of money to argue this with the lawyers of Gates and Allen? Argue pro se for a while at least. You don't always have to have a lawyer. Where's the sense of adventure? I know if it went to the end you'd probably never win, but you could punch around for a little while then capitulate. IANL but in many of these cases if you fold after a few exchanges of paperwork nothing happens. Just kidding on this, but it seems like a fun time. I'd suggest a petition or social media bomb to Microsoft's PR departments asking for clear use rights for this software, but they might realize they can make $98 from the sale over the next 10 years and decide to market it again. Kelly From isking at uw.edu Tue Aug 25 15:32:27 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:32:27 -0700 Subject: So, what's the deal with DigiBarn? In-Reply-To: References: <55DBD7EC.8060708@att.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 6:45 AM, dwight wrote: > Being a hobby project, Bruce gets distracted by earning > money and working on other projects. > The barn is not the best place for things as things get dusty. > Most things are in visible storage. Things could use cataloging. > I'm sure Bruce would love to have volunteers to help > keep things in order. > It is all about free time. > Dwight > > > > From: billdegnan at gmail.com > > > > I have been there before, Bruce gave a tour of the museum. Worth the > > visit when it's open if you get the chance. The items are not powered > > on and generally speaking items are on picnic tables with red/white > > tablecloths. There is also a bus called "Further" on the property and > > a pg pen. It's kind of like a mountain farm with historical computers > > in the barn. b > > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 10:50 PM, steve shumaker > wrote: > > > On 8/24/2015 3:30 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > > >> > > >> Hey all- > > >> > > >> I've always wondered about this. > > >> > > >> Their website hasn't seen a proper update in years, and it looks like > they > > >> have a lot of choice hardware donated to them that they may not be > > >> maintaining... Is it open to the public? > > >> > > >> Are people actively volunteering there to make sure this stuff is > shown > > >> some love and not falling into disrepair? Keeping leaky batteries, > > >> capacitors, rust at bay, and doing repairs? Imaging disks? > > >> > > >> They have some very worthwhile examples of machines but I haven't seen > > >> much > > >> from them as an organization in years! > > >> > > >> I'm sure lots of people would be willing to help if they are > > >> under-resourced. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> > > >> - Ian > > >> > > >> > > > > > > I run into the owner occasionally. Between family commitments and > > > significant work related travel, he's been over committed for over two > > > years. Bruce lurks here when he has time/access. > > > > > > steve > > > > > > > > -- > > Bill > > vintagecomputer.net > > Some of Bruce's exploits have been on Facebook lately - he's quite busy. I had quite a few conversations with him a couple of years ago, although I'm sorry to say I've never been able to visit. -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Aug 25 16:02:33 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 23:02:33 +0200 Subject: Applikon Workstation? Message-ID: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> In the nineties I've workes as electronican and system administrator at the institue of geophyics at our local University of Mining and Technology here in Freiberg Germany. Some day I've got a call from Motorola in Munich, they wanted to get rid of some old computers and asked if we had some use for them, I've sayed yes. As far as I know we got 3 Computers, one was an 68000 Unix system from philips, some kind of Microcomputer development system for 8080 or 8085, I've got the system running but since there wasn't much software on the disk we had not much use for this thing. The disk was alsready dying and lived not that long. The next thing was a desktop VME System from Motorola, IMHO equipped with an 68010, some MMUs, an color Monitor ad Harddisk and Floppy.. it run some kind of VDOS (or so) .. or VME-DOS or soemthing.., I remember that we had some documentiation for it and I've reinstalled that VDOS.. but not much use for that thing also. The 3rd Computer was the most interestng one. That thing was labeled "Applikon Workstation" (as far as I remember, may be Applicon..). That was some kind of a microvax made by Schlumberger. It had an CPU that sat in a QBUS Backplane and a QBUS to UNIBUS Bridge. The CPU was only a double sized board (!), an Emulex UC07 conected the disk to the machine and so far as I remember there was some kind of graphics board on the unibus side. I've repaired the CPU Board by changing the RSA232 Drivers for the console and the beast came to live. I've fiddeled around with the TK50 Tapes containing VMS4.6 (if my memory not fails) but could'nt get warm with VMS... Installed NetBSD and failed. NetBSD was'nt booting from the SCSI Drives with the Emulex, someone sent me an UDA50 and I was able to install and boot NetBSD, but had to key in the loader at the chevron every time I had to boot.. I've sent the Emulex to Ragge for diagnostics and never got it back. The Machine ran for years as ftp server at the institute until I've pulled the plug. Have never seen a picture from that graphics board. I've leaved the University in 1989, the machine sat on the garret of the building to this time, I'm pretty sure it's long gone... Now I'm fiddeling with VAXen again and that old thing came to mind, looked with google but could'nt find a machine like this, not even a Microvax with a only doubles sized CPU Board like an KDF-11. The question now is...is someone knowing of a beast like this? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Aug 25 16:03:16 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 17:03:16 -0400 Subject: Many Manuals - Also Boxes of Fan Fold Paper Message-ID: <55DCD814.2090507@compsys.to> Since the topic of hard copy manuals is at least on a few minds, I thought I would mention that I have at least 20 feet of mostly DEC PDP-11 related manuals which will have to be tossed if a home can't be found. While I estimate that at least 90% of the DEC manuals are on bitsavers, some individuals may still wish to have hard copy manuals. Most of the manuals are either RT-11 software for many versions or manuals for specific hardware modules with regard to usage. There are no print sets. If you want a hard copy set of RT-11 Docs for V05.07 or TSX-Plus for V6.5, then you could reserve them for when I no longer will need them! Since I just turned 77, the wait might not be that long. I also have over 6 boxes of Fan Fold Paper (with sprocket holes), mostly 8 1/2" x 11", but maybe some 9 1/2" x 11" with tear off. The paper is available immediately. I will probably hold the manuals for at least 6 to 12 months. But I can't see anyone else bothering and it would all be tossed immediately. There is also PDP-11 Qbus hardware, but that is another matter. I am in Toronto, Ontario. Pickup ONLY since this stuff is much too heavy to ship! Jerome Fine From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 25 16:55:22 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 16:55:22 -0500 Subject: Nuts and Volts and other magazines (Re: ColourPET) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55DCE44A.8020106@charter.net> On 8/25/2015 12:45 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Nuts and Volts is a neat little magazine ... I had a subscription for a > while back when I was in high school ... I ought to re-up one of these days. > > Best, > > Sean It is worth subscribing for a full year -- you get access to back issues. Absolutely worth it. I used to subscribe to Everyday Practical Electronics as well, but when they stopped making issues available as PDF's they lost me as a customer. I gotta believe that this attempt to avoid pirating has cost them an awful lot in opportunity cost - sales/customers lost. JRJ From bqt at softjar.se Tue Aug 25 17:45:10 2015 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 00:45:10 +0200 Subject: RT-11 on a PDP-11/10 Message-ID: <55DCEFF6.7050503@softjar.se> Hi all. Update have an 11/10, that was recently powered on again for the first time in I don't know when. After some fiddling with the RX01 disks, we put an RL11 and an RL02 on it. Lots of space, I know. :-) Also, we have RT-11 running on it. And for fun, we wanted to run the original Tetris. But here is the catch - Tetris is using some instructions that the 11/10 don't have. (I would guess EIS stuff.) Do anyone know if there is some software emulation of these instructions that can be added to RT-11 in order to be able to run such programs? RT-11 V5.5 by the way, if anyone wants to know. And no, I am not sitting by the machine, or trying to play with it personally. It's other people at Update. But an 11/10 is cute. And we did boot the RL02 on Magica (11/70) to check that there is nothing wrong with the binary, and it runs fine on that large machine. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 17:51:00 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 17:51:00 -0500 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> Message-ID: Whether low-impedance voltage sources are present, or not, you should +never+ wear any kind of hand / wrist jewelry when working with moving parts. Ditto for neck chains and long hair, that isn't securely tied back. Seems like First Grade instruction for the tech, but accidents still happen.. every day. Remember that most injuries associated with electric shock are secondary - that is, the real damage often occurs when the individual recoils from the shock, jamming their hands into even worse places in the equipment - like rotating assemblies. And then there's the innocent guy behind you, who gets knocked into his equipment, when you jump back. On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > On 8/22/2015 4:11 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> In my mostly misspent youth, I once had the opportunity to visit a > >> facility where a now obscure supercomputer was developed. The product > >> manager was showing me around. .... > > > > That wasn't Astronautics' ZS, by any chance? > > No. I omitted the names to protect the innocent. And the guilty. > From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 22:44:13 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 22:44:13 -0500 Subject: John @ CPUShack? Message-ID: Wonder if anyone here has ever dealt with John Culver, who works from the address john at cpushack.com? He operates a site at the same URL. Among other things, he's a buyer, seller & collector of vintage CPUs, and associated chips. I've done several deals with him, with goods & money moving both directions at various times, and have nothing but good memories. In my experience, the guy is a real mensch, so I wanted to give him a plug here - May I suggest that anyone who might be looking for a specific vintage chip give him a holler and see what he can turn up? IMO, you could do a whole heck of a lot worse! -Bill From scaron at umich.edu Tue Aug 25 16:09:28 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 17:09:28 -0400 Subject: Applikon Workstation? In-Reply-To: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: The name sounds familiar ... not sure why ... it turns out they had their main offices here in Ann Arbor, MI at some point, as an aside. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicon Best, Sean On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > In the nineties I've workes as electronican and system administrator at the > institue of geophyics at our local University of Mining and Technology here > in Freiberg Germany. > Some day I've got a call from Motorola in Munich, they wanted to get rid of > some old computers and asked if we had some use for them, I've sayed yes. > > As far as I know we got 3 Computers, one was an 68000 Unix system from > philips, some kind of Microcomputer development system for 8080 or 8085, > I've got the system running but since there wasn't much software on the > disk we had not much use for this thing. The disk was alsready dying and > lived not that long. > The next thing was a desktop VME System from Motorola, IMHO equipped with > an 68010, some MMUs, an color Monitor ad Harddisk and Floppy.. it run some > kind of VDOS (or so) .. or VME-DOS or soemthing.., I remember that we had > some > documentiation for it and I've reinstalled that VDOS.. but not much use for > that thing also. > > The 3rd Computer was the most interestng one. That thing was labeled > "Applikon Workstation" (as far as I remember, may be Applicon..). > That was some kind of a microvax made by Schlumberger. > It had an CPU that sat in a QBUS Backplane and a QBUS to UNIBUS Bridge. > The CPU was only a double sized board (!), an Emulex UC07 conected the disk > to the machine and so far as I remember there was some kind of graphics > board on the unibus side. I've repaired the CPU Board by changing the > RSA232 Drivers for the console and the beast came to live. I've fiddeled > around with the TK50 Tapes containing VMS4.6 (if my memory not fails) but > could'nt get warm with VMS... Installed NetBSD and failed. > NetBSD was'nt booting from the SCSI Drives with the Emulex, someone sent > me an UDA50 and I was able to install and boot NetBSD, but had to key in > the loader at the chevron every time I had to boot.. > I've sent the Emulex to Ragge for diagnostics and never got it back. > The Machine ran for years as ftp server at the institute until I've pulled > the plug. Have never seen a picture from that graphics board. > I've leaved the University in 1989, the machine sat on the garret of the > building to this time, I'm pretty sure it's long gone... > > > Now I'm fiddeling with VAXen again and that old thing came to mind, looked > with google but could'nt find a machine like this, not even a Microvax with > a only doubles sized CPU Board like an KDF-11. > > The question now is...is someone knowing of a beast like this? > > Regards, > > Holm > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 25 21:34:42 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 21:34:42 -0500 Subject: SA-800/801 saga continues / schematic request In-Reply-To: <55DBC307.3030101@charter.net> References: <55D8E2D5.8060306@shiresoft.com> <55DA83FE.3000305@charter.net> <55DBC307.3030101@charter.net> Message-ID: <55DD25C2.9060600@charter.net> On 8/24/2015 8:21 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 8/23/2015 9:39 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> >> When I connect up drive "X", the +24V series pass transistor gets very >> warm and the +24V drops to around +8.5V (regardless of whether or not >> the stepper motor leads are connected). On the circuit board, a >> Shugart ASIC 16270-1 gets quite hot, and is clearly dead. This chip is >> labeled WR/CHNL in an SA-850 schematic, and is listed in the Shugart >> spares catalog as "IC, Write Channel". It is indeed fed from the +24V >> line on pin 15, and connects to the erase and center tap terminals on >> the head. [I have not measured the head to see if it was damaged - nope >> not]. I expect that if I pull that chip, the board will not overload >> the +24V supply. >> >> When I connect up drive "Y", the +24V series pass transistor on the >> power supply gets very hot, but nothing on the circuit board gets hot at >> all, and the +24V drops to 0. The board measures as a dead short with >> an ohmmeter (even "X" shows *some* resistance). The stepper driver IC, >> a standard part UNL2074 (quad darlington power transistors in a 14-pin >> DIP no less) has a suspicious bump on its head, so I will probably start >> by pulling it and see what changes (I hope that is it), and if that is >> the issue, I will also check the voltage clamping diodes in the output >> circuit and the stepper windings and the 7404 that drives it to make >> sure it wasn't collateral damage. I expect regardless of the cause, the >> dead short will be not *too* difficult to find and correct. >> >> So, now the saga of the Altos power supply is fully understood. It was >> the second drive from the DSD-440 that actually killed it. Fortunately, >> the DSD-440 power supply was apparently robust enough to put up with the >> abuse. >> >> With a little luck, I can make one whole SA-801 out of the pair >> (focusing on "Y" since I have no source for that 16270 ASIC), and then >> use the mechanism of "X" with the board from the Altos SA-800 to make a >> working SA-800 for the Altos. >> >> JRJ >> > > Some GOOD NEWS for a change. I pulled the UNL2074 from drive "Y", and > the short remained. The next most obvious component for a dead short was > actually a little 4.7uf filter capacitor - and indeed that was the > culprit. The board from drive "X" donated its corresponding capacitor, > as the odds of me fixing that board are not very good, owing to the > 16270-1 Shugart ASIC. Returned the UNL2074 back into the board on "Y". > > Erased (with a tape eraser for open reel tapes back in the 60's), > formatted a floppy and tested, including interchange with the original > second drive in the Altos, and all is well. > > Tomorrow I get to test the 2nd 801 (drive "X") mechanism with the board > from drive "Y". I expect it will be fine as well. Then I can swap out > the electronics from the original first Altos drive onto drive "Y" (they > are plug compatible that way) to get another working drive. > > BTW, the replacement FD-1791B-02 (I actually tested to) did help with > the hung floppy controller after errors syndrome - it happened > significantly less often that with a FD-1791B-01 . > > JRJ > Both SA-801 mechanisms tested fine (with the board from "Y"). So now the mechanism from "X" and the board from the original are in the Altos, as the second drive, and doing fine. Drive "Y" was restored to its original condition. The original SA-800 had its fancy new bearings swapped back for the originals, and has the bad board from "X". - so three drives to make two good ones. Drive "Y" and the bad drive will take up residence in the Data Systems chassis for now. All four of my good drives (the original Altos SA-800, the SA-801 drive "Y" and the "hybrid fix" drive and my Siemens FD 100-8 (which says it is an FDD 120-8 on its serial number plate) also tested fine. Whew. JRJ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 26 00:02:55 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 05:02:55 +0000 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> , Message-ID: > Remember that most injuries associated with electric shock are secondary - > that is, the real damage often occurs when the individual recoils from the > shock, jamming their hands into even worse places in the equipment - like > rotating assemblies. And then there's the innocent guy behind you, who gets > knocked into his equipment, when you jump back. An obvious example of this is the the charge stored on the 'capacitor' of a CRT (the capacitor being formed by the final anode coating inside the glass flare and the coating on the outside) is not likely to be lethal for most people. But it will you jump, you will then either drop the CRT (if you are carrying it) or jerk back and break the CRT with whatever tool you are holding. And then the CRT implodes, you get showered in glass.... -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 26 00:41:24 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 06:41:24 +0100 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> Message-ID: As a child I remember getting a shock from a fridge and being "thrown" across the room into the wall opposite. I really did crash into the wall quite hard, so I can imagine it being very easy for the shock to cause other injuries. Regards Rob On 26/08/2015, tony duell wrote: >> Remember that most injuries associated with electric shock are secondary - >> that is, the real damage often occurs when the individual recoils from the >> shock, jamming their hands into even worse places in the equipment - like >> rotating assemblies. And then there's the innocent guy behind you, who >> gets >> knocked into his equipment, when you jump back. > > An obvious example of this is the the charge stored on the 'capacitor' of a > CRT > (the capacitor being formed by the final anode coating inside the glass > flare and > the coating on the outside) is not likely to be lethal for most people. But > it will > you jump, you will then either drop the CRT (if you are carrying it) or jerk > back > and break the CRT with whatever tool you are holding. And then the CRT > implodes, you get showered in glass.... > > -tony > From jws at jwsss.com Wed Aug 26 01:20:15 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 23:20:15 -0700 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> Message-ID: <55DD5A9F.80100@jwsss.com> Dec quad high boards had metal extractor handles which were possibly attached to metal rails, and if the wiring was wrong, could deliver a shock. Microdata card extractors were always engaged to a rail that was metal, and in one site I was at, there was a CE sized hole in the wall behind a system when the engineer extracted the printer card and the card extractors came free from the system. Turned out there was a 120v potential between the "dedicated" power for the computer and the printer which was plugged into the normal building power. There was probably as much as an amp going thru the grounds from the terminals in the building and the ground of the system. Miracle that he was not severely injured, and also that the system was working at all. Turned out that the entire building which had been expanded over a period of growth for the business of about 40 years had had power panels installed with "outdoor" grounds at the time to main panels in various places, and the grounds were all dropped to local earth. 10 different grounds, with terminals connected and grounds coming back to the main system. But you always were well served to de-energize systems and pull the power if you didn't want to be hit by this crap as there was no way to be clear of this problem. thanks Jim On 8/25/2015 10:41 PM, Jarratt RMA wrote: > As a child I remember getting a shock from a fridge and being "thrown" > across the room into the wall opposite. I really did crash into the > wall quite hard, so I can imagine it being very easy for the shock to > cause other injuries. > > Regards > > Rob > > On 26/08/2015, tony duell wrote: >>> Remember that most injuries associated with electric shock are secondary - >>> that is, the real damage often occurs when the individual recoils from the >>> shock, jamming their hands into even worse places in the equipment - like >>> rotating assemblies. And then there's the innocent guy behind you, who >>> gets >>> knocked into his equipment, when you jump back. >> An obvious example of this is the the charge stored on the 'capacitor' of a >> CRT >> (the capacitor being formed by the final anode coating inside the glass >> flare and >> the coating on the outside) is not likely to be lethal for most people. But >> it will >> you jump, you will then either drop the CRT (if you are carrying it) or jerk >> back >> and break the CRT with whatever tool you are holding. And then the CRT >> implodes, you get showered in glass.... >> >> -tony >> > From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Aug 26 02:12:38 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:12:38 +0200 Subject: Applikon Workstation? In-Reply-To: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > In the nineties I've workes as electronican and system administrator at the > institue of geophyics at our local University of Mining and Technology here > in Freiberg Germany. > Some day I've got a call from Motorola in Munich, they wanted to get rid of > some old computers and asked if we had some use for them, I've sayed yes. > > As far as I know we got 3 Computers, one was an 68000 Unix system from > philips, some kind of Microcomputer development system for 8080 or 8085, > I've got the system running but since there wasn't much software on the > disk we had not much use for this thing. The disk was alsready dying and > lived not that long. > The next thing was a desktop VME System from Motorola, IMHO equipped with > an 68010, some MMUs, an color Monitor ad Harddisk and Floppy.. it run some > kind of VDOS (or so) .. or VME-DOS or soemthing.., I remember that we had some > documentiation for it and I've reinstalled that VDOS.. but not much use for > that thing also. > > The 3rd Computer was the most interestng one. That thing was labeled > "Applikon Workstation" (as far as I remember, may be Applicon..). > That was some kind of a microvax made by Schlumberger. > It had an CPU that sat in a QBUS Backplane and a QBUS to UNIBUS Bridge. > The CPU was only a double sized board (!), an Emulex UC07 conected the disk > to the machine and so far as I remember there was some kind of graphics > board on the unibus side. I've repaired the CPU Board by changing the > RSA232 Drivers for the console and the beast came to live. I've fiddeled > around with the TK50 Tapes containing VMS4.6 (if my memory not fails) but > could'nt get warm with VMS... Installed NetBSD and failed. > NetBSD was'nt booting from the SCSI Drives with the Emulex, someone sent > me an UDA50 and I was able to install and boot NetBSD, but had to key in > the loader at the chevron every time I had to boot.. > I've sent the Emulex to Ragge for diagnostics and never got it back. > The Machine ran for years as ftp server at the institute until I've pulled > the plug. Have never seen a picture from that graphics board. > I've leaved the University in 1989, the machine sat on the garret of the > building to this time, I'm pretty sure it's long gone... > > > Now I'm fiddeling with VAXen again and that old thing came to mind, looked > with google but could'nt find a machine like this, not even a Microvax with > a only doubles sized CPU Board like an KDF-11. > > The question now is...is someone knowing of a beast like this? > > Regards, > > Holm > Hmm...my old memory is fading... it was a pretty much standard KA630-AA CPU in that machine, I've found my original mailing from 9/1995 in the archive: https://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/1995/09/27/0000.html Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 08:00:28 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:00:28 -0400 Subject: Applikon Workstation? In-Reply-To: <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: Ah, I knew that sounded familiar. I have a pretty sizable stack of what appear to be original nine-track tapes with their pdp11 software on them in my collection. Any interest? I could try to get my tu-10 going again to image them, but might need some help --jake On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 3:12 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > In the nineties I've workes as electronican and system administrator at > the > > institue of geophyics at our local University of Mining and Technology > here > > in Freiberg Germany. > > Some day I've got a call from Motorola in Munich, they wanted to get rid > of > > some old computers and asked if we had some use for them, I've sayed yes. > > > > As far as I know we got 3 Computers, one was an 68000 Unix system from > > philips, some kind of Microcomputer development system for 8080 or 8085, > > I've got the system running but since there wasn't much software on the > > disk we had not much use for this thing. The disk was alsready dying and > > lived not that long. > > The next thing was a desktop VME System from Motorola, IMHO equipped with > > an 68010, some MMUs, an color Monitor ad Harddisk and Floppy.. it run > some > > kind of VDOS (or so) .. or VME-DOS or soemthing.., I remember that we > had some > > documentiation for it and I've reinstalled that VDOS.. but not much use > for > > that thing also. > > > > The 3rd Computer was the most interestng one. That thing was labeled > > "Applikon Workstation" (as far as I remember, may be Applicon..). > > That was some kind of a microvax made by Schlumberger. > > It had an CPU that sat in a QBUS Backplane and a QBUS to UNIBUS Bridge. > > The CPU was only a double sized board (!), an Emulex UC07 conected the > disk > > to the machine and so far as I remember there was some kind of graphics > > board on the unibus side. I've repaired the CPU Board by changing the > > RSA232 Drivers for the console and the beast came to live. I've fiddeled > > around with the TK50 Tapes containing VMS4.6 (if my memory not fails) but > > could'nt get warm with VMS... Installed NetBSD and failed. > > NetBSD was'nt booting from the SCSI Drives with the Emulex, someone sent > > me an UDA50 and I was able to install and boot NetBSD, but had to key in > > the loader at the chevron every time I had to boot.. > > I've sent the Emulex to Ragge for diagnostics and never got it back. > > The Machine ran for years as ftp server at the institute until I've > pulled > > the plug. Have never seen a picture from that graphics board. > > I've leaved the University in 1989, the machine sat on the garret of the > > building to this time, I'm pretty sure it's long gone... > > > > > > Now I'm fiddeling with VAXen again and that old thing came to mind, > looked > > with google but could'nt find a machine like this, not even a Microvax > with > > a only doubles sized CPU Board like an KDF-11. > > > > The question now is...is someone knowing of a beast like this? > > > > Regards, > > > > Holm > > > > > Hmm...my old memory is fading... it was a pretty much standard KA630-AA CPU > in that machine, I've found my original mailing from 9/1995 in the archive: > > > https://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/1995/09/27/0000.html > > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Aug 26 08:19:05 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:19:05 -0400 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <55DD5A9F.80100@jwsss.com> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> <55DD5A9F.80100@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:20 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > .. > Microdata card extractors were always engaged to a rail that was metal, and in one site I was at, there was a CE sized hole in the wall behind a system when the engineer extracted the printer card and the card extractors came free from the system. Turned out there was a 120v potential between the "dedicated" power for the computer and the printer which was plugged into the normal building power. > > There was probably as much as an amp going thru the grounds from the terminals in the building and the ground of the system. Miracle that he was not severely injured, and also that the system was working at all. > > Turned out that the entire building which had been expanded over a period of growth for the business of about 40 years had had power panels installed with "outdoor" grounds at the time to main panels in various places, and the grounds were all dropped to local earth. 10 different grounds, with terminals connected and grounds coming back to the main system. I heard of this sort of thing happening to the DEC building at Marlboro. Supposedly it had two mains entrances, served from different power lines (and different companies? Seems odd). One of the machine rooms had feeds from both ends, and one particular system was fed from both. What happened is that the "grounds" were offset enough, and with enough of a current supply, that the ground strap that's supposed to connect the row of RP06 drives melted. This sort of thing is a major electric code violation: you can certainly have multiple services, but all the grounds are required to be connected by substantial wire; you're not allowed to stick ground rods in at multiple places and leave it at that. (The same goes for lightning rods.) paul From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Aug 26 08:34:55 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:34:55 -0400 Subject: Applikon Workstation? In-Reply-To: References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <55DDC07F.7010309@compsys.to> >Jacob Ritorto wrote: >Ah, I knew that sounded familiar. I have a pretty sizable stack of what >appear to be original nine-track tapes with their pdp11 software on them in >my collection. Any interest? I could try to get my tu-10 going again to >image them, but might need some help > >--jake > Most PDP-11 software distributions on tape were labelled with the software and the version. Any idea of what is on the various tapes? Jerome Fine From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 08:43:41 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:43:41 -0400 Subject: Applikon Workstation? In-Reply-To: <55DDC07F.7010309@compsys.to> References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> <55DDC07F.7010309@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Jacob Ritorto wrote: > > Ah, I knew that sounded familiar. I have a pretty sizable stack of what >> appear to be original nine-track tapes with their pdp11 software on them >> in >> my collection. Any interest? I could try to get my tu-10 going again to >> image them, but might need some help >> >> --jake >> >> Most PDP-11 software distributions on tape were labelled > with the software and the version. Any idea of what is > on the various tapes? If I don't run out of time today, I'll check at the warehouse this afternoon and report back... From bqt at softjar.se Wed Aug 26 08:44:45 2015 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 15:44:45 +0200 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <55928194.5040506@softjar.se> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> <54B889EE.4050807@softjar.se> <5575CAE9.4070207@softjar.se> <55928194.5040506@softjar.se> Message-ID: <55DDC2CD.30902@softjar.se> Close to two months since my last official release, so I figure it's time I do another one. So - there is a new release of BQTCP/IP. I strongly encourage anyone who uses this software to upgrade. A short list of changed: . TCP have been rewritten to not use any system pool at all. Even the small amount previously used added up when a lot of traffic was going on. At the same time, IPPOOL usage for connections have also decreased, as memory is only allocated when needed for transmissions. This also lead to the ability to have larger transmit buffers. . A new HELP file have been included for some help in general. If installed, you can see information through HELP/IP . FTP rate calculation was slightly wrong. Fixed now. . Various included tasks have now been built without the need for language specific resident libraries so that they can be used on any system. . TCP could disconnect sessions erroneously under some circumstances. Fixed. . Telnet daemon can give more comprehensive welcome messages now. . WWW server CGI scripts could cause the web connection to close even though the script was not finished. Fixed. . The SPOOF detection/prevention now will not block the DNS server. . Improved response times for TCP connection establishment. . If a daemon created a task, and the task never picked up the connection that came in, the socket was left in a broken state. Fixed. As usual, the distribution is available from: ftp://madame.update.uu.se/bqtcp.dsk ftp://madame.update.uu.se/bqtcp.tap ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip/tcpip.dsk The documentation is also available through ftp on Madame, or also at http://madame.update.uu.se/tcpipdoc Right now, I don't know what the next project will be. Some testing and improvements. But I probably need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Do anyone have any special wishes (and don't say SSH or IPv6 :-) ). Oh, and as a icing on the cake, http://magica.update.uu.se (or telnet://magica.update.uu.se) will lead you to a real, physical PDP-11/70 running this software. Magica have been on the internet in the past, but she has been down for quite some time. But I'm happy to announce that the machine is starting to live again. Johnny On 2015-06-30 13:46, Johnny Billquist wrote: > I'm happy to announce a new release of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. > > Since I'm broadening the scope of the announcement slightly, a more > complete list of features is included, and not just what changed since > last. For anyone who is currently running TCP/IP for RSX, I strongly > encourage you to update to this latest version. Several improvements > have gone in in the last couple of weeks. Most important change is that > there now is telnet support, both client and server side. > > The TCP/IP for RSX that I've written is sometimes referred to as > BQTCP/IP, just to make clear that it is a different product than Process > Software's TCPWARE, or JSA's TCP/IP. > > BQTCP/IP is a rather feature rich TCP/IP implementation, which also > comes with libraries for various high level languages. The API is not > compatible, even at the source level, with Unix, but on the other hand, > if people write some code, they will see that it is a very easy API to > work with. The reasons for the incompatibilities are several, including > both resource concerns and differences between how RSX works and Unix > like operating systems. > > BQTCP/IP has tried to comply with all relevant RFCs, but I'm sure there > are corners where it does not do things right. It also does not demand > much resources. It do require RSX-11M-PLUS with split I/D space, and it > has only been tested properly on RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6. It should work on > any version 4 release of RSX-11M-PLUS, but there might be a couple of > tweaks or fixes needed. > > BQTCP/IP is distributed in binary form, so very little compilation is > required to get it up and running. However, pretty much all utilities do > come with sources. The actual TCP/IP stack sources are not included. I > do not have a good setup for distributing them in a sane way, and it has > had a low priority on my list of things to do. But I do not mind > distributing the sources as a general principle. > > All that said, BQTCP/IP current supports the following protocols: > > o Ethernet and loopback interfaces. > o ARP. BQTCP/IP can use Ethernet in co-existance with DECnet, or > standalone using the provided Unibus ethernet device driver. > o IP. The largest IP packets supported are approximately > 8KB. > o ICMP. > o UDP. The largest UDP packets supported are approximately > 8KB. > o TCP. The window is approximately 8KB in size, and TCP do > manage out of order packets in an efficient way. > > BQTCP/IP supports the following applications: > o DHCP. DHCP can be used to configure interface addresses, network > masks, default gateways, DNS servers and NTP servers dynamically. > o NTP. NTP can be used to set the local time. > o TELNET. The TELNET server hooks in to the standard TT: terminal > driver, and the number of terminals to create is configurable. > The TELNET client can be used to connect to other systems. > o FTP. The FTP server can serve all kind of files to other RSX > systems, and can serve text and binary files to any system. > The FTP client can retrieve RSX format files from RSX servers, > and text, binary and block format files from any system. > o TFTP. The TFTP server and client can be used for simpler file > transfer operations. > o RWHOD. RWHOD is a program that reports current users and uptime > from RSX, for other systems to collect. > o IRC. IRC is a program to communicate with other users around > the world. > o IRCBOT. IRCBOT is a small example robot program connecting to IRC > and performing a service for IRC users. > o PCL. PCL is a protocol for printing, used by HP (and other) printers > over a network. The PCL implementation in BQTCP/IP appears as a > print symbiont, which you can create a printer queue for. > o WWW. WWW (or World Wide Web) is a service that can present hypertext > information to clients. The WWW server in BQTCP/IP also supports CGI, > which makes it possible to create dynamic content. > o DNS. BQTCP/IP have DNS implemented as an ACP, that anyone can query > to get translations between IP addresses and domain names. It also > supports different users using different name servers, or private > translations. > o SINK. A standard TCP service. > o ECHO. A standard TCP service. > o DAYTIME. A standard TCP service. > o QUOTD. A standard TCP service. > o IDENTD. A standard TCP service. > > BQTCP/IP also have automatic IP spoof detection and prevention. > > Additional tools are IFCONFIG, PING, TRACEROUTE, NETSTAT as well as two > new pages for RMD. > > High level language libraries exists for BASIC+2, PDP-11 C and FORTRAN-77. > > I'm sure I have forgotten a thing or three, but that's a fairly > comprehensive list. > > The documentation is a weak point, but there is hopefully enough > documentation to get people running, and I am happy to answer any > questions, or give support if needed. BQTCP/IP is already running on the > internet, and have been for a while. People who are curious to check it > out can ether look at http://madame.update.uu.se/, or telnet to > telnet://madame.update.uu.se and login as user GUEST with password > GUEST, or use ftp against ftp://madame.update.uu.se. Anonymous ftp > account exist. > > As usual, the distribution is available from: > ftp://madame.update.uu.se/bqtcp.dsk > ftp://madame.update.uu.se/bqtcp.tap > ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip/tcpip.dsk > > The .tap file is an RSX virtual tape. It is only possible to download > and use if you are using FTP from anther RSX system and fetch the file. > The .dsk files are virtual RL02 images that are useful both from within > RSX as well as through emulators. > > The documentation is also available through ftp on Madame, or also at > http://madame.update.uu.se/tcpipdoc > > Johnny From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Aug 26 11:40:15 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 11:40:15 -0500 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> <55DD5A9F.80100@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <55DDEBEF.1090800@pico-systems.com> On 08/26/2015 08:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> Turned out there was a 120v potential between the "dedicated" power for the computer and the printer which was plugged into the normal building power. >> >> There was probably as much as an amp going thru the grounds from the terminals in the building and the ground of the system. Miracle that he was not severely injured, and also that the system was working at all. >> >> Yup, in the first house I owned, i had a "computer room". The previous owner had done some retrofits and installed an outlet in a closet. I plugged a printer into that outlet, and my computer (S-100, CP/M) into another on the opposite wall. Some strange things happened, some chips got blown, I didn't know why. Then, finally, I put my hand on the printer and something connected to the computer and got a big shock. Quickly investigating, I found a Romex staple had been driven through the Romex, severing the safety ground and tying it to the hot! This was back before outlet testers were common items. Well, that explained some blown chips, etc. Jon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 26 12:02:20 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 17:02:20 +0000 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <55DDEBEF.1090800@pico-systems.com> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> <55DD5A9F.80100@jwsss.com> , <55DDEBEF.1090800@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > Yup, in the first house I owned, i had a "computer room". Whereas now you have a 'computer house' ? > The previous owner had done some retrofits and installed an > outlet in a closet. I plugged a printer into that outlet, > and my computer (S-100, CP/M) into another on the opposite > wall. Some strange things happened, some chips got blown, I > didn't know why. Then, finally, I put my hand on the > printer and something connected to the computer and got a You were very lucky. An arm-to-arm shock is about the most dangerous you can get. That (of course) is why you keep your left hand behind your back when working on anything with high votlages. > big shock. Quickly investigating, I found a Romex staple > had been driven through the Romex, severing the safety > ground and tying it to the hot! This was back before outlet > testers were common items. Well, that explained some blown > chips, etc. OUCH!. I've seen some dubious wiring in my time (and just becasue somebody has the right bit of paper to say they are a qualified electrician does not mean they do good wiring in my experience!) but that is lethal. Don't they test wiring after it's installed? Over here you are certainly supposed to (and a megger would pick that up even if the short wan't quite there yet). -tony From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Aug 26 12:17:02 2015 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 17:17:02 +0000 Subject: Origin of "second system effect" before 1975? Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC885133B@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> I know of two publications in 1975 that used the term "second system effect" or "second-systemitis". 1: Brooks' _Mythical Man-Month_. 2: Bell's and Streeker's "What We Learned From the PDP-11". Does anyone know of earlier usage of this term or earlier names for this effect, possibly outside of computers? Tim. From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Aug 26 09:58:29 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 14:58:29 +0000 Subject: SA-800/801 saga continues / schematic request In-Reply-To: <55DD25C2.9060600@charter.net> References: <55D8E2D5.8060306@shiresoft.com> <55DA83FE.3000305@charter.net> <55DBC307.3030101@charter.net> <55DD25C2.9060600@charter.net> Message-ID: <0C5ED3E8-1A1A-41A5-9B3E-2762FE725E11@swri.edu> As long as you keep believing in the power of loving, you will surely achieve the victory that is yours alone. - BubbleGum Crisis, lyrics from the song, ?Victory?, per http://www.animelyrics.com/anime/bgc/bgcvtory.htm (but if you go there, you see a whole lot of pop-up ads?.) On Aug 25, 2015, at 9:34 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Both SA-801 mechanisms tested fine (with the board from "Y"). So now > the mechanism from "X" and the board from the original are in the Altos, > as the second drive, and doing fine. Drive "Y" was restored to its > original condition. The original SA-800 had its fancy new bearings > swapped back for the originals, and has the bad board from "X". - so > three drives to make two good ones. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 26 10:39:38 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 15:39:38 +0000 Subject: SA-800/801 saga continues / schematic request In-Reply-To: <0C5ED3E8-1A1A-41A5-9B3E-2762FE725E11@swri.edu> References: <55D8E2D5.8060306@shiresoft.com> <55DA83FE.3000305@charter.net> <55DBC307.3030101@charter.net> <55DD25C2.9060600@charter.net>, <0C5ED3E8-1A1A-41A5-9B3E-2762FE725E11@swri.edu> Message-ID: > > As long as you keep believing > in the power of loving, you will surely achieve > the victory that is yours alone. > > - BubbleGum Crisis, lyrics from the song, ?Victory?, per http://www.animelyrics.com/anime> /bgc/bgcvtory.htm > (but if you go there, you see a whole lot of pop-up ads?.) Completely off-topic, but this reminds me of something we sang at school almost 40 years ago. I have no idea what it came from, or who wrote it. >From memory, and thus with mistakes : 'Now perhaps you'll see the moral of our tale Never be scared to make a start for fear that you may fail Life is full of puzzles, this we suggest to you It's not so much how clever you are are as what you try to do' And as sonebody who is not very clever I have lived by that ever since. My method of computer repair, etc, is not to be scared, just to have a go. It's worked so far. -tony From cramcram at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 13:01:59 2015 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 11:01:59 -0700 Subject: ASR-33 differences Message-ID: Hi, I've finally gotten a hold of a restored ASR-33. One question I have concerns the paper tape reader. My recollection of using this TTY in the 70's was that the reader switch lever had 4 positions; on this tty there are 3. I know that for I have to add a reader control relay to interface to my PDP-8. So the question is: does having the 3 vs. 4 position reader lever affect using this with a PDP-8? Thanks, Marc From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 13:23:05 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 11:23:05 -0700 Subject: Symbolics system board and host Mac In-Reply-To: <55D6D5C8.6040709@jwsss.com> References: <55D6D5C8.6040709@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 12:39 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > I was going to play dumb and hope this didn't go nuts in price but it did. > Anyone here bidding? > > I'd be interested in one of these just to play with, but will probably try > to use the emulator if I ever get the chance to get into it more. > > VINTAGE-COMPUTER-SYMBOLICS-LISP-MACHINE-MACIVORY-III-APPLE-MACINTOSH-QUADRA-950 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221855233003 Anyone here willing to admit they were the winning bidder at $4,175.00? From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 13:25:20 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 13:25:20 -0500 Subject: VMS 5.4 AUTHORIZE issues Message-ID: Just picked up a very complete MicroVAX 3800. I have very little experience with VMS as this is my first VAX. Mostly a PDP-8 guy, I suppose. I'm running through the change password procedure, which I had seen mentioned previously on this list: SET VAXCLUSTER 0 SET /STARTUP OPA0: SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 CONTINUE SET NOON SPAWN /NOWAIT SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM RUN AUTHORIZE At this point, I get this: %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image SECURESHRP -CLI-E-IMGNAME, image file R7CY2A$DIA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSLIB]SECURESHRP.EXE;2 -SYSTEM-F-PROTINSTALL, protected images must be installed $ What would I need to do to correct it to login? The eventual goal is to get this online, which should be feasible. I have an AUI-to-10Base-T adapter (several, actually). I think that'll be a little while away for now, though. Here are some pictures: http://imgur.com/a/WYGra Thanks, Kyle From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 13:35:02 2015 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 14:35:02 -0400 Subject: Symbolics system board and host Mac In-Reply-To: References: <55D6D5C8.6040709@jwsss.com> Message-ID: That price sounds more like a purchase by a business running legacy apps... On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 12:39 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > I was going to play dumb and hope this didn't go nuts in price but it > did. > > Anyone here bidding? > > > > I'd be interested in one of these just to play with, but will probably > try > > to use the emulator if I ever get the chance to get into it more. > > > > > VINTAGE-COMPUTER-SYMBOLICS-LISP-MACHINE-MACIVORY-III-APPLE-MACINTOSH-QUADRA-950 > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221855233003 > > Anyone here willing to admit they were the winning bidder at $4,175.00? > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 26 13:03:33 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 18:03:33 +0000 Subject: ASR-33 differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I've finally gotten a hold of a restored ASR-33. One question I have > concerns the paper tape reader. > > My recollection of using this TTY in the 70's was that the reader switch > lever had 4 positions; on this tty there are 3. I know that for I have to > add a reader control relay to interface to my PDP-8. > I've only ever seen the ones with 3 position levers, but from reading the manuals I think the 3 position levers are manual control models and 4 position levers are automatic control models (with extra levers and swtiches in the stunt box to start and stop the reader using XON/XOFF characters) > So the question is: does having the 3 vs. 4 position reader lever affect > using this with a PDP-8? The 3 position lever models (manual control) can certainly take the reader run relay and be used with PDP8s and PDP11s. -tony From cruff at ruffspot.net Wed Aug 26 13:12:05 2015 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 12:12:05 -0600 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150826181205.GA8666@clarinet.ruffspot.net> > On 8/22/2015 4:11 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > In my mostly misspent youth, I once had the opportunity to visit a > facility where a now obscure supercomputer was developed. The product > manager was showing me around. .... Denelcor perhaps? From scaron at umich.edu Wed Aug 26 13:31:40 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 14:31:40 -0400 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <20150826181205.GA8666@clarinet.ruffspot.net> References: <20150826181205.GA8666@clarinet.ruffspot.net> Message-ID: Keep guessing, guys, I don't know where Eric actually worked but the guesses are intriguing keywords for journal searches. Just got done reading an article about the Denelcor machine and it's intriguing ... I am always so enchanted by these unique approaches to what a computer fundamentally is, that people came up with back then ... I often wonder how some of these various models would perform if modern technology were applied to their implementation. Best, Sean On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 2:12 PM, Craig Ruff wrote: > > On 8/22/2015 4:11 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > In my mostly misspent youth, I once had the opportunity to visit a > > facility where a now obscure supercomputer was developed. The product > > manager was showing me around. .... > > Denelcor perhaps? > From scaron at umich.edu Wed Aug 26 13:39:18 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 14:39:18 -0400 Subject: VMS 5.4 AUTHORIZE issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nice one! A big'un and fully loaded, too! You tried this procedure? Always worked for me. http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/journal/v1/atw.pdf Best, Sean On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > Just picked up a very complete MicroVAX 3800. I have very little experience > with VMS as this is my first VAX. Mostly a PDP-8 guy, I suppose. > > I'm running through the change password procedure, which I had seen > mentioned previously on this list: > > SET VAXCLUSTER 0 > SET /STARTUP OPA0: > SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 > CONTINUE > > SET NOON > SPAWN /NOWAIT SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM > SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM > RUN AUTHORIZE > > At this point, I get this: > %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image SECURESHRP > -CLI-E-IMGNAME, image file > R7CY2A$DIA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSLIB]SECURESHRP.EXE;2 > -SYSTEM-F-PROTINSTALL, protected images must be installed > $ > > What would I need to do to correct it to login? > > The eventual goal is to get this online, which should be feasible. I have > an AUI-to-10Base-T adapter (several, actually). I think that'll be a little > while away for now, though. > > Here are some pictures: http://imgur.com/a/WYGra > > Thanks, > > Kyle > From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com Wed Aug 26 14:01:31 2015 From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 15:01:31 -0400 Subject: VMS 5.4 AUTHORIZE issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9099B377-0B86-4061-BA47-F6C6F13936B5@VMSSoftware.com> This is Sue Skonetski from VMS Software Inc. (www.vmssoftware.com) Welcome to the world of VMS. One of the huge advantages is the help so at the dead sergeant prompt >> you can type in help show device, help cluster. VMS is not case sensitive and is designed to be secure from the very start of the original development almost 40 years ago. We still have customers who are still using this version. As any FYI our longest record of up - time is 23 years so this is not a system that you will be patching or fixing regularly. If you are going to be using VMS regularly I would suggest signing up for the VMS Special Interest Group (VMS SIG). Here is the url to sign up, you can ask questions and folks will help. This is managed by Connect (think DECUS) HP?s user group. http://listserv.encompassus.org/scripts/wa-ENCOMPASS.exe?SUBED1=VMS-SIG&A=1 For current versions of VMS which is OpenVMS v8.4-1h1 just send me email. Also if you need repairs done on PDP, VAX and Alphas? check out Nemonix Engineering. I know the folks there and they can and do provide both hardware and software services, or you can just send me mail and I will do what I can. There will be a VMS/VAX/Alpha/DEC reunion at the OpenVMS Boot Camp in Sept you may just want to see what kind of current VMS sessions there are. My guess is that there will be more than you expected. https://www.eiseverywhere.com/ehome/openvmsbootcamp2015/294678/ Hope this helps a little. Sue > On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:25 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > Just picked up a very complete MicroVAX 3800. I have very little experience > with VMS as this is my first VAX. Mostly a PDP-8 guy, I suppose. > > I'm running through the change password procedure, which I had seen > mentioned previously on this list: > > SET VAXCLUSTER 0 > SET /STARTUP OPA0: > SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 > CONTINUE > > SET NOON > SPAWN /NOWAIT SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM > SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM > RUN AUTHORIZE > > At this point, I get this: > %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image SECURESHRP > -CLI-E-IMGNAME, image file > R7CY2A$DIA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSLIB]SECURESHRP.EXE;2 > -SYSTEM-F-PROTINSTALL, protected images must be installed > $ > > What would I need to do to correct it to login? > > The eventual goal is to get this online, which should be feasible. I have > an AUI-to-10Base-T adapter (several, actually). I think that'll be a little > while away for now, though. > > Here are some pictures: http://imgur.com/a/WYGra > > Thanks, > > Kyle Sue Skonetski VP of Customer Advocacy Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations From cube1 at charter.net Wed Aug 26 14:13:02 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 14:13:02 -0500 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <55DD5A9F.80100@jwsss.com> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> <55DD5A9F.80100@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <55DE0FBE.5050902@charter.net> On 8/26/2015 1:20 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > Microdata card extractors were always engaged to a rail that was metal, > and in one site I was at, there was a CE sized hole in the wall behind a > system when the engineer extracted the printer card and the card > extractors came free from the system. Turned out there was a 120v > potential between the "dedicated" power for the computer and the printer > which was plugged into the normal building power. > > There was probably as much as an amp going thru the grounds from the > terminals in the building and the ground of the system. Miracle that he > was not severely injured, and also that the system was working at all. > We had a similar thing happen at the 5th out of 9 floors of the State of Wisconsin Hill Farms State Transportation Building. The power requirements for stuff in the building outstripped the capacity to put wire in the risers, so there were some shared neutrals serving multiple hot circuits. I learned about this when an Intergraph FE was shocked by a 50V potential between two neutrals between the LSI-11 equipped graphics terminal and a Versatec printer. Also, when I was a kid, I was playing around with a Jacob's Ladder I had made using a old vibrator-equipped Ford spark coil (I may still have that around), and I had a telegraph key as a switch. Welll, one day I was adjusting the ladder electrodes when my elbow hit the telegraph key. I was knocked flat on my back off of my chair, several feet back from the table. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Wed Aug 26 14:16:28 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 14:16:28 -0500 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> <55DD5A9F.80100@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <55DE108C.8090808@charter.net> On 8/26/2015 8:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > I heard of this sort of thing happening to the DEC building at Marlboro. Supposedly it had two mains entrances, served from different power lines (and different companies? Seems odd). One of the machine rooms had feeds from both ends, and one particular system was fed from both. What happened is that the "grounds" were offset enough, and with enough of a current supply, that the ground strap that's supposed to connect the row of RP06 drives melted. > > This sort of thing is a major electric code violation: you can certainly have multiple services, but all the grounds are required to be connected by substantial wire; you're not allowed to stick ground rods in at multiple places and leave it at that. (The same goes for lightning rods.) > > paul > Quite possibly two different phases, and if so, the would be 90 degrees out of phase with each other. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Wed Aug 26 14:20:03 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 14:20:03 -0500 Subject: DEC 9 Track Tapes (was Re: Applikon Workstation?) In-Reply-To: References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <55DE1163.5000309@charter.net> On 8/26/2015 8:00 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Ah, I knew that sounded familiar. I have a pretty sizable stack of what > appear to be original nine-track tapes with their pdp11 software on them in > my collection. Any interest? I could try to get my tu-10 going again to > image them, but might need some help > > --jake > I have an HP 9 Track drive (800 - 6250 BPI), and a "baking" setup I can use if you wanted to send them to Madison, WI. JRJ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Aug 26 14:21:09 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 15:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC 9 Track Tapes (was Re: Applikon Workstation?) In-Reply-To: <55DE1163.5000309@charter.net> References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> <55DE1163.5000309@charter.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 8/26/2015 8:00 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > >> Ah, I knew that sounded familiar. I have a pretty sizable stack of what >> appear to be original nine-track tapes with their pdp11 software on them in >> my collection. Any interest? I could try to get my tu-10 going again to >> image them, but might need some help >> >> --jake >> > > I have an HP 9 Track drive (800 - 6250 BPI), and a "baking" setup I can > use if you wanted to send them to Madison, WI. Just out of curiosity, which model HP drive is that? A modern streamer with an 800bpi option? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Aug 26 14:26:17 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 20:26:17 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VMS 5.4 AUTHORIZE issues In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 26 Aug 2015 13:25:20 -0500" Message-ID: <01PQ0HLN6KM0009EGN@beyondthepale.ie> Kyle Owen wrote: > > Just picked up a very complete MicroVAX 3800. I have very little experience > with VMS as this is my first VAX. Mostly a PDP-8 guy, I suppose. > > I'm running through the change password procedure, which I had seen > mentioned previously on this list: > > SET VAXCLUSTER 0 > SET /STARTUP OPA0: > SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 > CONTINUE > > SET NOON > SPAWN /NOWAIT SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM > SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM > RUN AUTHORIZE > > At this point, I get this: > %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image SECURESHRP > -CLI-E-IMGNAME, image file > R7CY2A$DIA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSLIB]SECURESHRP.EXE;2 > -SYSTEM-F-PROTINSTALL, protected images must be installed > $ > > What would I need to do to correct it to login? > You need an @ sign in front of SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM (Sorry - I think I originally posted that procedure with the @ sign missing.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Aug 26 14:33:19 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 15:33:19 -0400 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <55DE108C.8090808@charter.net> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> <55DD5A9F.80100@jwsss.com> <55DE108C.8090808@charte r.net> Message-ID: <25F9F023-2806-4C50-A347-F31217470F7B@comcast.net> > On Aug 26, 2015, at 3:16 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > On 8/26/2015 8:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> I heard of this sort of thing happening to the DEC building at Marlboro. Supposedly it had two mains entrances, served from different power lines (and different companies? Seems odd). One of the machine rooms had feeds from both ends, and one particular system was fed from both. What happened is that the "grounds" were offset enough, and with enough of a current supply, that the ground strap that's supposed to connect the row of RP06 drives melted. >> >> This sort of thing is a major electric code violation: you can certainly have multiple services, but all the grounds are required to be connected by substantial wire; you're not allowed to stick ground rods in at multiple places and leave it at that. (The same goes for lightning rods.) >> >> paul >> > > Quite possibly two different phases, and if so, the would be 90 degrees > out of phase with each other. 90? Three phase power is 120 degrees apart, center-tapped "two phase" home power is 180 degrees, but I don't know of any power company service that produces 90 degree shifts. In any case, RP06s use three phase power. The issue wasn't the power in this particular story, but rather the ground wire (the green "protective ground" that isn't supposed to carry current at all under normal operation). paul From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Aug 26 14:45:54 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 12:45:54 -0700 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <55DE0FBE.5050902@charter.net> References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> <55DD5A9F.80100@jwsss.com> <55DE0 FBE.5050902@charter.net> Message-ID: <78348D7B-5C1B-43ED-BA84-FD8E79BAD23E@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Aug-26, at 12:13 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > Also, when I was a kid, I was playing around with a Jacob's Ladder I had > made using a old vibrator-equipped Ford spark coil (I may still have > that around), and I had a telegraph key as a switch. Welll, one day I > was adjusting the ladder electrodes when my elbow hit the telegraph key. > I was knocked flat on my back off of my chair, several feet back from > the table. Funny, just last week at the radio museum, a fellow member brought in a Model T Ford spark coil, in rather rough condition, and we did just that: connected it up and managed to get a (small) Jacob's Ladder out of it. (Though the one made from a large neon-sign transformer is a little more impressive.) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Aug 26 15:07:38 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 16:07:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... Message-ID: <20150826200738.E96D518C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > What happened is that the "grounds" were offset enough, and with enough > of a current supply, that the ground strap that's supposed to connect > the row of RP06 drives melted. > This sort of thing is a major electric code violation: you can certainly have > multiple services, but all the grounds are required to be connected by > substantial wire; you're not allowed to stick ground rods in at > multiple places and leave it at that. I'm pretty blown away that the various grounds could be offset by that much, to produce that kind of current when they were tied together. Wow. Noel From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Aug 26 15:48:39 2015 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 13:48:39 -0700 Subject: 90 degree phase rotation commercial power (was: Re: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness....) In-Reply-To: <25F9F023-2806-4C50-A347-F31217470F7B@comcast.net> References: <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> <55DD5A9F.80100@jwsss.com> <55DE108C.8090808@charte r.net> <25F9F023-2806-4C50-A347-F31217470F7B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55DE2627.6060704@mainecoon.com> On 8/26/15 12:33, Paul Koning wrote: > 90? Three phase power is 120 degrees apart, center-tapped "two > phase" home power is 180 degrees, but I don't know of any power > company service that produces 90 degree shifts. There's a bunch of 90-degree two-phase stuff in Philadelphia; in particular the city center has a lot of buildings that are fed 90-degree two-phase from PECO. I suspect (but do not actually know) that PECO derives two-phase from three-phase using Scott-T transformers. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 26 15:33:01 2015 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 21:33:01 +0100 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... References: <55D5E482.7070209@charter.net> <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> Message-ID: <00a501d0e041$54673390$907d190a@user8459cef6fa> Agreed. I know of a story of someone working with a drill was also wearing a tie*... needless to say the tie accidentally got caught around the drill and the guy was very nearly strangled to death... * He had attended in interview earlier in the day and didn't go home before returning to work. Regards, Andrew Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk www.aliensrcooluk.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "drlegendre ." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 11:51 PM Subject: Re: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... > Whether low-impedance voltage sources are present, or not, you should > +never+ wear any kind of hand / wrist jewelry when working with moving > parts. Ditto for neck chains and long hair, that isn't securely tied back. > > Seems like First Grade instruction for the tech, but accidents still > happen.. every day. > > Remember that most injuries associated with electric shock are secondary - > that is, the real damage often occurs when the individual recoils from the > shock, jamming their hands into even worse places in the equipment - like > rotating assemblies. And then there's the innocent guy behind you, who gets > knocked into his equipment, when you jump back. > > > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > > On 8/22/2015 4:11 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > >> In my mostly misspent youth, I once had the opportunity to visit a > > >> facility where a now obscure supercomputer was developed. The product > > >> manager was showing me around. .... > > > > > > That wasn't Astronautics' ZS, by any chance? > > > > No. I omitted the names to protect the innocent. And the guilty. > > From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 15:58:01 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 15:58:01 -0500 Subject: VMS 5.4 AUTHORIZE issues In-Reply-To: <01PQ0HLN6KM0009EGN@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PQ0HLN6KM0009EGN@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > You need an @ sign in front of SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM > > (Sorry - I think I originally posted that procedure with the @ sign > missing.) > That seemed to do the trick! I'm now in the system. I'm struggling to understand how to switch between making it conversational boot and not. I'm assuming the lack of the NiCd battery will mean it won't necessarily remember such preferences, but maybe I'm wrong. At this point, I think I'm ready for it to boot non-conversationally. Looks like it wasn't really wiped since it was last used in the mid-1990s. I'll be reading up on VMS and learn how to do simple things like the equivalent of "ls | less" in the *nix world. Not really sure how to read the text printed to the terminal (VT320) one page at a time. In some OS/8 programs, you gave it the /P flag. Hmm... It is complaining about DUB0:[RS1R4]RS1LOG.COM, DUB0:[ORACLES]ORAUSER.COM, and DUB0:[ECMS4]LOGIN.COM after logging in. Not sure what that's all about. %DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening [file]; as input -RMS-E-DNR, device not ready, not mounted, or unavailable How can I tell if it's an issue with the drive itself or something else? I think this is one of the two 1.2 GB Sabre drives. Thanks again for the tips! Kyle From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Aug 26 16:01:47 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 17:01:47 -0400 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <20150826200738.E96D518C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150826200738.E96D518C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <429FE4C4-D8AC-4738-8612-053B6E4C7F22@comcast.net> > On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> What happened is that the "grounds" were offset enough, and with enough >> of a current supply, that the ground strap that's supposed to connect >> the row of RP06 drives melted. >> This sort of thing is a major electric code violation: you can certainly have >> multiple services, but all the grounds are required to be connected by >> substantial wire; you're not allowed to stick ground rods in at >> multiple places and leave it at that. > > I'm pretty blown away that the various grounds could be offset by that much, > to produce that kind of current when they were tied together. Wow. I can't vouch for the truth of the story; I heard it a long time ago from a fairly reliable source. But consider this theory. Suppose you have two service drops, fed from transformers off the utility high voltage line. The neutral is simply defined by the ground rod at the transformer and at the service entry to the building. If the building is a steel frame and all service entries are bonded to the steel, and the steel is generally conductive, you have a single neutral. But if some aren't bonded, or the building isn't conductive, then you have two separate ground references. Also, the green wire (protective ground) is connected to the neutral at the service entry. Now suppose that you have unbalanced phases, which will generally be the case. That produces a neutral current, which dissipates through the ground rods. If you have two services, the resulting neutral voltages will not be in phase. If you now tie these two neutrals (grounds) through an unplanned wire, as in this story, the phase unbalance voltage (the difference between the two neutrals) will produce a current that's split between that wire, and the ground around the building, in proportion to the impedance of the two paths. The wire impedance is likely to be far lower than that of the ground (especially in New England), and the phase unbalance current in a large building might well amount to a lot of amps. paul From cube1 at charter.net Wed Aug 26 16:17:15 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 16:17:15 -0500 Subject: DEC 9 Track Tapes (was Re: Applikon Workstation?) In-Reply-To: References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> <55DE1163.5000309@charter.net> Message-ID: <55DE2CDB.9020101@charter.net> On 8/26/2015 2:21 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> On 8/26/2015 8:00 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: >> >>> Ah, I knew that sounded familiar. I have a pretty sizable stack of what >>> appear to be original nine-track tapes with their pdp11 software on >>> them in >>> my collection. Any interest? I could try to get my tu-10 going >>> again to >>> image them, but might need some help >>> >>> --jake >>> >> >> I have an HP 9 Track drive (800 - 6250 BPI), and a "baking" setup I can >> use if you wanted to send them to Madison, WI. > > Just out of curiosity, which model HP drive is that? A modern > streamer with an 800bpi option? > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > Relatively modern: HP 88780B From cube1 at charter.net Wed Aug 26 16:18:48 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 16:18:48 -0500 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <25F9F023-2806-4C50-A347-F31217470F7B@comcast.net> References: <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> <55DD5A9F.80100@jwsss.com> <55DE108C.8090808@charte r.net> <25F9F023-2806-4C50-A347-F31217470F7B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55DE2D38.7090401@charter.net> On 8/26/2015 2:33 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Aug 26, 2015, at 3:16 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> >> On 8/26/2015 8:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>> I heard of this sort of thing happening to the DEC building at Marlboro. Supposedly it had two mains entrances, served from different power lines (and different companies? Seems odd). One of the machine rooms had feeds from both ends, and one particular system was fed from both. What happened is that the "grounds" were offset enough, and with enough of a current supply, that the ground strap that's supposed to connect the row of RP06 drives melted. >>> >>> This sort of thing is a major electric code violation: you can certainly have multiple services, but all the grounds are required to be connected by substantial wire; you're not allowed to stick ground rods in at multiple places and leave it at that. (The same goes for lightning rods.) >>> >>> paul >>> >> >> Quite possibly two different phases, and if so, the would be 90 degrees >> out of phase with each other. > > 90? Three phase power is 120 degrees apart, center-tapped "two phase" home power is 180 degrees, but I don't know of any power company service that produces 90 degree shifts. > Yes, of course: 120 degrees. D'oh. > In any case, RP06s use three phase power. The issue wasn't the power in this particular story, but rather the ground wire (the green "protective ground" that isn't supposed to carry current at all under normal operation). > > paul > > I understand. Different shocks for different folks. ;) JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Wed Aug 26 16:23:44 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 16:23:44 -0500 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <20150826200738.E96D518C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150826200738.E96D518C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55DE2E60.4000705@charter.net> On 8/26/2015 3:07 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > > What happened is that the "grounds" were offset enough, and with enough > > of a current supply, that the ground strap that's supposed to connect > > the row of RP06 drives melted. > > This sort of thing is a major electric code violation: you can certainly have > > multiple services, but all the grounds are required to be connected by > > substantial wire; you're not allowed to stick ground rods in at > > multiple places and leave it at that. > > I'm pretty blown away that the various grounds could be offset by that much, > to produce that kind of current when they were tied together. Wow. > > Noel > Consider, say, 10 circuits, 20A each sharing a neutrals. Suppose each neutral as a total resistance of 0.1 ohm. If the neutrals were done properly, the voltage drop would be 20 x 0.01, or 2 V. Share one neutral, though, and you are up to a whopping 20V. And if that happens, guess what: some of the current is going to happily use the earth ground (or an FE) as the path of least resistance. From cube1 at charter.net Wed Aug 26 16:24:59 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 16:24:59 -0500 Subject: 90 degree phase rotation commercial power In-Reply-To: <55DE2627.6060704@mainecoon.com> References: <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> <55DD5A9F.80100@jwsss.com> <55DE108C.8090808@charte r.net> <25F9F023-2806-4C50-A347-F31217470F7B@comcast.net> <55DE2627.6060704@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <55DE2EAB.7060306@charter.net> On 8/26/2015 3:48 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote: > > On 8/26/15 12:33, Paul Koning wrote: > >> 90? Three phase power is 120 degrees apart, center-tapped "two >> phase" home power is 180 degrees, but I don't know of any power >> company service that produces 90 degree shifts. > > There's a bunch of 90-degree two-phase stuff in Philadelphia; in > particular the city center has a lot of buildings that are fed 90-degree > two-phase from PECO. I suspect (but do not actually know) that PECO > derives two-phase from three-phase using Scott-T transformers. > > Man, sometimes one can be right by accident! (I did really mean to say 120 degrees, originally). JRJ From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Aug 26 16:01:31 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 22:01:31 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VMS 5.4 AUTHORIZE issues In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 26 Aug 2015 15:58:01 -0500" References: <01PQ0HLN6KM0009EGN@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01PQ0LL24TNC009EGN@beyondthepale.ie> Kyle Owen wrote: > > That seemed to do the trick! I'm now in the system. I'm struggling to > understand how to switch between making it conversational boot and not. I'm > assuming the lack of the NiCd battery will mean it won't necessarily > remember such preferences, but maybe I'm wrong. At this point, I think I'm > ready for it to boot non-conversationally. > The way to do or not do a conversational boot is processor specific and I don't know what the specifics are for a 3800. For some other types, something like SET BFLGS 0 at the console prompt may reset it to non-conversational booting. Typically putting 1 in the least significant bit of R5 enables conversational booting and 0 disables it. As Sue said, there may be online help at the console prompt which may provide some leads: >>> HELP I would suggest removing the battery pack in case it leaks and causes damage like some of mine have. > > Looks like it wasn't really wiped since it was last used in the mid-1990s. > I'll be reading up on VMS and learn how to do simple things like the > equivalent of "ls | less" in the *nix world. Not really sure how to read > the text printed to the terminal (VT320) one page at a time. In some OS/8 > programs, you gave it the /P flag. Hmm... > $ DIRECTORY /PAGE Many other commands also accept /PAGE. Check the online help: $ HELP You might also get away with pressing holdscreen on the terminal, but probably not on the console port. > > It is complaining about DUB0:[RS1R4]RS1LOG.COM, DUB0:[ORACLES]ORAUSER.COM, > and DUB0:[ECMS4]LOGIN.COM after logging in. Not sure what that's all about. > %DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening [file]; as input > -RMS-E-DNR, device not ready, not mounted, or unavailable > > How can I tell if it's an issue with the drive itself or something else? I > think this is one of the two 1.2 GB Sabre drives. > If one disk is DIA0 (a DSSI disk) and the two disks are similar types, it is unlikely the other one is called DUB0 so you probably don't have the disk it is trying to access. This should list the disks that you do have: $ SHOW DEVICE D Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 26 16:16:34 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 16:16:34 -0500 Subject: Many Manuals - Also Boxes of Fan Fold Paper In-Reply-To: <55DCD814.2090507@compsys.to> References: <55DCD814.2090507@compsys.to> Message-ID: At 04:03 PM 8/25/2015, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >Since the topic of hard copy manuals is at least on a few minds, >I thought I would mention that I have at least 20 feet of mostly >DEC PDP-11 related manuals which will have to be tossed if >a home can't be found. While I estimate that at least 90% of >the DEC manuals are on bitsavers, Be sure to send that 10% to someone who can scan them. :-) - John From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 18:17:56 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 18:17:56 -0500 Subject: Pre-VCFMW Sales and Free Stuff Message-ID: It's a bit late but I may as well post my list of stuff I'd like to see go away this weekend. Small items can be delivered to you at VCF Midwest. Large items you'll have to pick up from my home or storage, both of which are <10 miles from the show, either during the week before or on Sunday evening after. (Or Monday mid-day if you're still in town.) The list at present: FREE (for pickup or +shipping) DEC TS05 9-track tape drive. Pertec interface, rail kit should be around here somewhere. Very clean, assumed working. DEC RL02 Drive. Once a home to mice, now a real "fixer-upper." Hey, they're tough drives. IBM MagStar MP 3570 tape library. Missing its tape cartridge but drive should be OK. SCSI interface. Heavy. FOR SALE Digital DECWriter III printing terminal. Repainted top, badge bent and poorly glued on. Was working when last tried. Cost is helping me get it out of the basement and another DECwriter down there to replace it. Digital DECWriter II printing terminal. Not sure about this one. Looks clean but untested. Will trade for something significantly smaller. I'll keep a running list here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/forsale.html If it's no longer on that list, it's gone. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Aug 26 20:17:54 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 20:17:54 -0500 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: References: <248B6275-2AA6-4362-B039-2E814D66B05A@comcast.net> <55D615B1.4060408@sydex.com> <55D68828.1080402@sydex.com> <55D693A0.4000505@charter.net> <80BF9AC0-FC9B-4EF5-88E1-586F773EF5FC@swri.edu> <55D8D070.60305@charter.net> <55D8EB13.1050307@charter.net> <55DD5A9F.80100@jwsss.com> , <55DDEBEF.1090800@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55DE6542.6000804@pico-systems.com> On 08/26/2015 12:02 PM, tony duell wrote: >> Yup, in the first house I owned, i had a "computer room". > Whereas now you have a 'computer house' ? > > >> The previous owner had done some retrofits and installed an >> outlet in a closet. I plugged a printer into that outlet, >> and my computer (S-100, CP/M) into another on the opposite >> wall. Some strange things happened, some chips got blown, I >> didn't know why. Then, finally, I put my hand on the >> printer and something connected to the computer and got a > You were very lucky. An arm-to-arm shock is about the most > dangerous you can get. That (of course) is why you keep your > left hand behind your back when working on anything with > high votlages. I guess I have good heart circuitry, as I have gotten this type of shock a number of times, without any terrible thing happening. Always when totally unexpected, as I was not AWARE that what I'd be doing had any shock potential. > >> big shock. Quickly investigating, I found a Romex staple >> had been driven through the Romex, severing the safety >> ground and tying it to the hot! This was back before outlet >> testers were common items. Well, that explained some blown >> chips, etc. > OUCH!. I've seen some dubious wiring in my time (and just becasue > somebody has the right bit of paper to say they are a qualified > electrician does not mean they do good wiring in my experience!) > but that is lethal. Don't they test wiring after it's installed? Over here > you are certainly supposed to (and a megger would pick that up > even if the short wan't quite there yet). > > Oh, YEAH, this place was later found to have some REALLY dubious wiring, that must have been missed by several inspectors. They had a fire there quite some time before I moved in. There was burned wiring in a basement ceiling with the Romex outer jacket melted off, and the inner wires deteriorated. They had a feed for some baseboard heaters with 30 A breakers that had been re-routed to ordinary outlets. This was all presumably done by a previous owner. Well, we KNOW why they had a fire, don't we? I've never met a residential electrician that would even know the WORD "megger". Certainly, they don't use them to check house wiring. Jon From scaron at umich.edu Wed Aug 26 19:05:18 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 20:05:18 -0400 Subject: Pre-VCFMW Sales and Free Stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That TS05 is probably in excess of 100 lbs, no? Pity it's not a little closer, I'd definitely take a 9-track to play with for free! Best, Sean On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 7:17 PM, Jason T wrote: > It's a bit late but I may as well post my list of stuff I'd like to > see go away this weekend. Small items can be delivered to you at VCF > Midwest. Large items you'll have to pick up from my home or storage, > both of which are <10 miles from the show, either during the week > before or on Sunday evening after. (Or Monday mid-day if you're still > in town.) > > The list at present: > > FREE (for pickup or +shipping) > > DEC TS05 9-track tape drive. Pertec interface, rail kit should be > around here somewhere. Very clean, assumed working. > DEC RL02 Drive. Once a home to mice, now a real "fixer-upper." Hey, > they're tough drives. > IBM MagStar MP 3570 tape library. Missing its tape cartridge but drive > should be OK. SCSI interface. Heavy. > > FOR SALE > > Digital DECWriter III printing terminal. Repainted top, badge bent and > poorly glued on. Was working when last tried. Cost is helping me get > it out of the basement and another DECwriter down there to replace it. > Digital DECWriter II printing terminal. Not sure about this one. Looks > clean but untested. Will trade for something significantly smaller. > > I'll keep a running list here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/forsale.html > > If it's no longer on that list, it's gone. > From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 21:35:17 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 22:35:17 -0400 Subject: ASR-33 differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26 August 2015 at 14:03, tony duell wrote: > I've only ever seen the ones with 3 position levers, but from reading the > manuals I think the 3 position levers are manual control models and > 4 position levers are automatic control models (with extra levers and > swtiches in the stunt box to start and stop the reader using XON/XOFF > characters) > You are correct. The four position reader control lever are for machines that use DC1/DC3 (XON/XOFF) to control the reader automatically. > The 3 position lever models (manual control) can certainly take the reader > run relay and be used with PDP8s and PDP11s. > If I recall correctly; weren't the "preferred" versions of the 33ASR for use where the reader was controlled by the computer the 3-position manual reader control models? Since the reader won't run unless the computer is asserting the reader control lines anyway, and with such hardware flow control XON/XOFF automatic control become redundant. Regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 01:50:20 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 01:50:20 -0500 Subject: Pre-VCFMW Sales and Free Stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 7:05 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > That TS05 is probably in excess of 100 lbs, no? Pity it's not a little > closer, I'd definitely take a 9-track to play with for free! It's definitely creeping up on a hundred. I believe they are rebadged Cipher drives, although I don't know what model. j From classiccmp at crash.com Thu Aug 27 03:34:50 2015 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 01:34:50 -0700 Subject: TS05 is re-badged Cipher? was Re: Pre-VCFMW Sales and Free Stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55DECBAA.9050600@crash.com> On 08/26/2015 23:50, Jason T wrote: > > It's definitely creeping up on a hundred. I believe they are rebadged > Cipher drives, although I don't know what model. j I thought the TS05 was a 1600bpi drive, so I would have guessed the F880. But there seem to be a few sites saying it was an 80MB drive, so... M891 then? Image here: http://www.torontosurplus.com/a-v-photo-computer/computers-related-items/digital-equipment-corporation-ts05-dec-ts05-dec-ts05-ba-tape-drive-brand-new-nos.html Better image of an open F880 here: http://www.digitalheritage.de/computers/DEC/PDP11_73/images/1_9track.JPG --S. From kevalm at aol.com Thu Aug 27 03:46:00 2015 From: kevalm at aol.com (Kevin Tikker) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 01:46:00 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 Message-ID: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. Kevin Tikker Sent from my iPhone From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 27 05:38:51 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 10:38:51 +0000 Subject: ASR-33 differences In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > If I recall correctly; weren't the "preferred" versions of the 33ASR > for use where the reader was controlled by the computer the 3-position > manual reader control models? Since the reader won't run unless the > computer is asserting the reader control lines anyway, and with such > hardware flow control XON/XOFF automatic control become redundant. Over here most ASR33s were used as locally-connected (current loop) computer terminals. Every one I've seen has been manual control (3 position reader control) and had a reader control relay fitted. So it certainly can be done. I agree that if you have the reader relay there is no need for the XON/XOFF control too. I don't think it matters if you have it, but no worries if you don't. In any case the reader control is electrical, in fact the reader is the only part of the ASR33 not to have a mechanical connection to any other unit. Reader control means energising (or not) the trip magnet at the rear right of the typing unit. So if you have the XON/XOFF control and find it gets in the way, it should be trivial to bypass it. -tony Regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 27 05:52:55 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 10:52:55 +0000 Subject: TS05 is re-badged Cipher? was Re: Pre-VCFMW Sales and Free Stuff In-Reply-To: <55DECBAA.9050600@crash.com> References: , <55DECBAA.9050600@crash.com> Message-ID: > I thought the TS05 was a 1600bpi drive, so I would have guessed the > F880. But there seem to be a few sites saying it was an 80MB drive, > so... M891 then? I don't know how similar the F880 and M891 are inside, but I have a TS05 for my 11/730 and I used the F880 service manual when I needed to repair it. Of course it might be that the bit I needed to fix (part of the tape tension control circuit) is the same in the M891 and F880... -tony From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Aug 27 04:27:44 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 10:27:44 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 26 Aug 2015 17:01:47 -0400" <429FE4C4-D8AC-4738-8612-053B6E4C7F22@comcast.net> References: <20150826200738.E96D518C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <01PQ1E9STB380084J5@beyondthepale.ie> Paul Koning wrote: > > I can't vouch for the truth of the story; I heard it a long time ago from a > fairly reliable source. > The story seems plausable but I disagree with the theory of how it could have happened. > > But consider this theory. Suppose you have two service drops, fed from > transformers off the utility high voltage line. The neutral is simply > defined by the ground rod at the transformer and at the service entry to > the building. > The neutral is defined by being connected to the star point on the transformer secondary as well as being grounded. If it is not (at least intended to be) connected to the star point, it's a ground, not a neutral. It is possible to get a three phase power feed with no netural provided but this is only suitable for use with balanced three phase loads, not a typical building load which includes single phase lighting and power outlets. > > If the building is a steel frame and all service entries are bonded to the > steel, and the steel is generally conductive, you have a single neutral. > This is a ground, not a neutral. > > But if some aren't bonded, or the building isn't conductive, then you have > two separate ground references. Also, the green wire (protective ground) > is connected to the neutral at the service entry. > Ok. > > Now suppose that you have unbalanced phases, which will generally be the case. > That produces a neutral current, > Ok. > > which dissipates through the ground rods. > No. The neutral current returns to the transformer star point. There will only be significant current flow through the ground rods if there is a break in the neutral between the transformer star point and the point where it is grounded at the service entry and the transformer star point is also separately grounded. The only current through the ground rods should be leakage through grounded power filters and live to ground fault current which has somehow managed to not cause the circuit protection to operate. > > If you have two services, the resulting neutral voltages will not be in phase. > Ok. > > If you now tie these two neutrals (grounds) through an unplanned wire, as in > this story, the phase unbalance voltage (the difference between the two > neutrals) will produce a current that's split between that wire, and the > ground around the building, in proportion to the impedance of the two paths. > This is critical to the difference between neutrals and grounds. Neutrals can routinely and safely carry current but grounds are not supposed to carry significant currents except for brief periods between the occurrance of a live to ground fault it's clearance by the operation of circuit protection. Neutrals must be insulated from everything else including ground except where they are grounded at the service entry. They particularly must not be connected to exposed metalwork or signal carrying conductors as a substitute for a ground connection. Because grounds are not expected to have significant current flowing in them, different points on the ground conductors will not be at significantly different potentials and issues connecting two different grounded pieces of equipment together with signal carrying conductors should not arise. > > The wire impedance is likely to be far lower than that of the ground > (especially in New England), and the phase unbalance current in a large > building might well amount to a lot of amps. > The strap melting in this case is likely to have been due to either inappropriate use of neutrals as grounds or grounds as neutrals or a live to ground fault combined with excessively high impedance in the ground connection causing a major fault to go undetected. Multiple supplies and phase imbalance can't account for it without very serious flaws also being present. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Aug 27 10:54:51 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 10:54:51 -0500 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <01PQ1E9STB380084J5@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20150826200738.E96D518C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01PQ1E9STB380084J5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <55DF32CB.6050308@pico-systems.com> On 08/27/2015 04:27 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > The neutral is defined by being connected to the star > point on the transformer secondary as well as being > grounded. If it is not (at least intended to be) connected > to the star point, it's a ground, not a neutral. It is > possible to get a three phase power feed with no netural > provided but this is only suitable for use with balanced > three phase loads, not a typical building load which > includes single phase lighting and power outlets. There have been a number of crazy systems used in the US, generally referred to as "open delta". One of them uses two single-phase transformers, and the common connection between them is grounded. This, you have two unbalanced 220 V circuits (on different phases) with a common point. Any 3-phase motor or device is perfectly happy with this, although one "corner" of the three-phase triangle is grounded. A benefit is you can use common split single-phase panels and double-pole breakers for it. This system is called "corner grounded open delta". Another system uses one center-tapped residential 120/240 V transformer and one 240 transformer (or can use two split transformers as long as the center tap of the 2nd transformer is not used). The center tap of the split transformer is grounded. This allows you to derive standard 120/240 V single-phase service AND 240 V 3-phase service from only 2 transformers. But, it gets really confusing, as the 3-phase service is grounded at the center between two of the 3-phase lines. You have to use 3-pole breakers on this, as none of the 3-phase lines is at neutral/ground potential. This system is called "center-grounded open delta". Then, the typical 3-phase service can be 120/208 V Wye service, with the center tap of the Wye grounded. This gives both 120 V for office equipment and 208 for industrial loads. Also, there is 240 V Delta service, where loads cannot be placed between line and neutral. These transformers generally have a small balance transformer that is just 3 windings with one end all tied together and grounded. Often, they have a ground fault interrupter connected to the the balance transformer. If any load draws more than a small current to ground, the transformer is shut down. But, you can run unbalanced loads from one line to another. Welders and big computer gear were often set up this way. Jon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 27 12:56:10 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 11:56:10 -0600 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> Message-ID: <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. > > Kevin Tikker > > > Sent from my iPhone Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and new. Good luck Digging for one. From evan at snarc.net Thu Aug 27 13:45:50 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:45:50 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing results Message-ID: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> Brought my Apple //e Platinum to a MARCH workshop last weekend. We used a bottle of a "B-Blond" which I think is a woman's hair product from England. We painted it onto the computer case, wrapped the case in Saran Wrap, and left it outside in the sunlight for a few hours. The results were dramatic. Here's a reminder of the "before" showing the top cover. You can see the original platinum color at the bottom where it tucks into the main case. I don't have a "before" shot of the main case, but it was as badly yellowed as the top cover:http://snarc.net/yellowing.jpg. Here are some "after" shots. 1. Back at home. Notice color difference vs. the disk drives and system saver --http://snarc.net/desk.jpg. 2. Up-close. See the streaking and slight blotches? I believe that's from where the sunlight was blocked by trees (as the sun moved vs. the horizon that afternoon) and also from where the Saran Wrap bunched up in a few places --http://snarc.net/streaks.jpg. 3. De-yellowed case on the right. Case on the left is from another Platinum in the MARCH collection. I did a quick-and-dirty de-yellowing of the left half of that one, just to show another before/after shot. Prior to experimenting on it, this is the one that Ian Primus and others used for pranking me by swapping it with mine, overnight while I slept! :) -- http://snarc.net/both.jpg. So my computer isn't perfect and never will be, but overall it was a successful experiment. From pete at pski.net Thu Aug 27 13:55:05 2015 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:55:05 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> Message-ID: <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> > On Aug 27, 2015, at 2:45 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Brought my Apple //e Platinum to a MARCH workshop last weekend. We used a bottle of a "B-Blond" which I think is a woman's hair product from England. We painted it onto the computer case, wrapped the case in Saran Wrap, and left it outside in the sunlight for a few hours. > > The results were dramatic. > > Here's a reminder of the "before" showing the top cover. You can see the original platinum color at the bottom where it tucks into the main case. I don't have a "before" shot of the main case, but it was as badly yellowed as the top cover:http://snarc.net/yellowing.jpg. > > Here are some "after" shots. > > 1. Back at home. Notice color difference vs. the disk drives and system saver --http://snarc.net/desk.jpg. > > 2. Up-close. See the streaking and slight blotches? I believe that's from where the sunlight was blocked by trees (as the sun moved vs. the horizon that afternoon) and also from where the Saran Wrap bunched up in a few places --http://snarc.net/streaks.jpg. > > 3. De-yellowed case on the right. Case on the left is from another Platinum in the MARCH collection. I did a quick-and-dirty de-yellowing of the left half of that one, just to show another before/after shot. Prior to experimenting on it, this is the one that Ian Primus and others used for pranking me by swapping it with mine, overnight while I slept! :) -- > http://snarc.net/both.jpg. > > So my computer isn't perfect and never will be, but overall it was a successful experiment. > It does look better. Strange how the yellowing has some sort of negative psychological effect (myself included) on folks. It would be great if you could take a similar photo every couple of months to see if/when the yellowing returns. I don?t think I?ve seen anyone document that process. I?ve only seen anecdotes that the yellowing returns. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 13:59:52 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:59:52 -0400 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: How many exist on Earth at this point? On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben wrote: > On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: >> >> Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. >> >> Kevin Tikker >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone > > > Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and > new. Good luck Digging for one. > > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 14:07:32 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 20:07:32 +0100 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > degnan > Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: IBM 1620 > > How many exist on Earth at this point? Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps.... > > On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben wrote: > > On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > >> > >> Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. > >> > >> Kevin Tikker > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and > > new. Good luck Digging for one. > > > > > > > > -- > Bill > vintagecomputer.net From evan at snarc.net Thu Aug 27 14:11:55 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 15:11:55 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> Message-ID: <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> > It does look better. Strange how the yellowing has some sort of negative psychological effect (myself included) on folks. It would be great if you could take a similar photo every couple of months to see if/when the yellowing returns. I don?t think I?ve seen anyone document that process. I?ve only seen anecdotes that the yellowing returns. If I remember... It looked amazing when I first saw it after a couple of hours in the sun, but it's still far from the "Platinum" (grey) color that I envisioned: http://www.gangsenggol.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/snap19.jpg Wondering if I should have left it in the sun all day vs. just an hour or two. The immediate difference after the first 90 minutes was so dramatic that I thought it was "done". We (MARCH) may invest in a large UV lamp and build an indoor station, which would be a much more controlled environment for this. Regarding the keycaps -- Corey Cohen suggested that I remove them and soak them in 3% peroxide. Going to have to try that. From ben at bensinclair.com Thu Aug 27 14:28:30 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:28:30 -0500 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> Message-ID: The CHM has a bit of information, and links to three other 1620's that they know about: http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/ >From what I've been reading, there may be only one operational 1620 right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one. On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william >> degnan >> Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: IBM 1620 >> >> How many exist on Earth at this point? > > > Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps.... > >> >> On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben wrote: >> > On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: >> >> >> >> Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. >> >> >> >> Kevin Tikker >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > >> > Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and >> > new. Good luck Digging for one. >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Bill >> vintagecomputer.net > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 27 15:42:47 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 15:42:47 -0500 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> Message-ID: <55DF7647.8060204@charter.net> On 8/27/2015 3:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. > > Kevin Tikker > > > Sent from my iPhone > And, if you find one, as if they have an IBM 1410, while you are at it. (As far as I know, NONE of those exist, unless IBM has one squirreled away somewhere). JRJ From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 15:49:33 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 16:49:33 -0400 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55DF7647.8060204@charter.net> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF7647.8060204@charter.net> Message-ID: I'd like a 1620 too please. .. or a 1710 if I have to settle. In all seriousness I may not have the machines but I do have a lot of 1401/1620/1710 docs on hand in my little private library here in Landenberg, should anyone be passing this way. For now I have to settle for that. I'll bet a case of beer that there is an old IBM or UNIVAC languishing out there in a Cuban office building basement ... somewhere. * That would be the best bet as to where you can find a 1620.* b On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 8/27/2015 3:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > > > Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. > > > > Kevin Tikker > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > And, if you find one, as if they have an IBM 1410, while you are at it. > (As far as I know, NONE of those exist, unless IBM has one squirreled > away somewhere). > > JRJ > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Aug 27 16:04:06 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 09:04:06 +1200 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> Message-ID: >I don?t think I?ve seen anyone document that process. I?ve only seen anecdotes that the yellowing returns. Yes, it would be good if someone took a month by month series of photos. My experience is more than an anecdote though...I have the photos to prove it. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-01-15-retr0bright-only-temporary.htm I have seen one other person mention on a discussion forum that they had a similar result. It would be good to get some other experiences though. Interestingly, my Lisa 2/5 mentioned in my writeup, hasn't reverted to it's yellowed state even though it is the only example mentioned above that is not boxed and sits in light (dim light mind you).. It still seems ok, which leads me to think that yellowing regression is complex and may depend a lot on the plastic mix in the first place. >Regarding the keycaps -- Corey Cohen suggested that I remove them and soak them in 3% peroxide. Going to have to try that. Yes, just be careful Evan. If they are grey(ish), it's very easy to overcook them and get streaking as mentioned in the writeups below. It works very well for white keys. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2009-02-05-deyellowing-an-appleIIe-platinum.htm http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-04-11-lisa-keys-retrobrighting-misstep.html Terry (Tez) From pete at pski.net Thu Aug 27 16:28:00 2015 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 17:28:00 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> Message-ID: > On Aug 27, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > > Yes, it would be good if someone took a month by month series of photos. > My experience is more than an anecdote though...I have the photos to prove > it. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-01-15-retr0bright-only-temporary.htm > > > Terry (Tez) Looks like you?ve done it already. Thanks, Tez. I think your observations are very informative. From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 27 16:54:53 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 16:54:53 -0500 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF7647.8060204@charter.net> Message-ID: <55DF872D.30300@charter.net> On 8/27/2015 3:49 PM, william degnan wrote: > I'd like a 1620 too please. .. or a 1710 if I have to settle. > > In all seriousness I may not have the machines but I do have a lot of > 1401/1620/1710 docs on hand in my little private library here in > Landenberg, should anyone be passing this way. For now I have to settle > for that. > > I'll bet a case of beer that there is an old IBM or UNIVAC languishing out > there in a Cuban office building basement ... somewhere. * That would be > the best bet as to where you can find a 1620.* > > b > Nah. Probably sent them all to Russia to be reverse engineered - two generations too late. ;) But one might find a Russian 360 clone floating around Cuba, I suppose. JRJ From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 17:20:18 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 18:20:18 -0400 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55DF872D.30300@charter.net> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF7647.8060204@charter.net> <55DF872D.30300@charter.net> Message-ID: heh...well I didn't say it was a *good* chance, but one can always hope... On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 8/27/2015 3:49 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > I'd like a 1620 too please. .. or a 1710 if I have to settle. > > > > In all seriousness I may not have the machines but I do have a lot of > > 1401/1620/1710 docs on hand in my little private library here in > > Landenberg, should anyone be passing this way. For now I have to settle > > for that. > > > > I'll bet a case of beer that there is an old IBM or UNIVAC languishing > out > > there in a Cuban office building basement ... somewhere. * That would be > > the best bet as to where you can find a 1620.* > > > > b > > > > Nah. Probably sent them all to Russia to be reverse engineered - two > generations too late. ;) But one might find a Russian 360 clone > floating around Cuba, I suppose. > > JRJ > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From kevalm at aol.com Thu Aug 27 21:18:13 2015 From: kevalm at aol.com (Kevin Tikker) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 19:18:13 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 27, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > The CHM has a bit of information, and links to three other 1620's that > they know about: > http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/ > > From what I've been reading, there may be only one operational 1620 > right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one. > > > >> On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william >>> degnan >>> Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> Subject: Re: IBM 1620 >>> >>> How many exist on Earth at this point? >> >> >> Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps.... >> >>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben wrote: >>>>> On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. >>>>> >>>>> Kevin Tikker >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> >>>> Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and >>>> new. Good luck Digging for one. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Bill >>> vintagecomputer.net > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 27 21:41:04 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 21:41:04 -0500 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> On 8/27/2015 9:18 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there > There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI when I started school, and rumor was that one of them ended up in somebody's basement. Whether or not that rumor was true, and if so, if it is still around, or not, I have no idea. (Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in town, as well). Both of these rumors date back 30+ years, though. JRJ From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 22:19:05 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 22:19:05 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info Message-ID: I hope to start backing up my MicroVAX 3800 soon via the TK70. Sounds like 8mm is more unreliable than the TK70, and I don't have but one magneto-optical disk. Are there any precautions I need to take before sticking a tape in the drive? Pinch rollers that might be gooey? I assume the TK70 drive is backwards compatible with TK50 tapes? Lastly, I've got some tapes that I couldn't find much info on. Here are the labels: ER206200-00 REV G 1.03 P4000 DOWNLINE VMS SOFTWARE 09-29-89 (C) 1988 EMULEX ER2062014-00 REV A P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00 05/14/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD) (C) 1990 EMULEX ER2062014-00 REV 01 P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00B2 05/1/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD) (C) 1990 EMULEX ER2062014-00 REV 00 P4000 LAT-TCP/IP SOFTWARE 3-22-90 TK50 (VMS LOAD) (C) 1990 EMULEX Are any of those worth keeping? Any tips on getting those tapes online using my VAX? I know there are utilities for the PDP-8 and PDP-11 world, but being thrown into VAX and VMS so quickly, it may take me a bit to catch up. Any recommendations on reading material? I also have a tape for VAX Occam 2 from INMOS. I know what that is, as I have a 64-node Transputer array. It'd be nice to get that going at some point for fun. Thanks, Kyle From kevalm at aol.com Thu Aug 27 22:34:51 2015 From: kevalm at aol.com (Kevin Tikker) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 20:34:51 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> Message-ID: <1B4FCEAB-BB12-48E7-8FCF-A3FDC4761935@aol.com> A possible lead? Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 27, 2015, at 7:41 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> On 8/27/2015 9:18 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote: >> >> Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there > > There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI > when I started school, and rumor was that one of them ended up in > somebody's basement. Whether or not that rumor was true, and if so, if > it is still around, or not, I have no idea. > > (Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in > town, as well). > > Both of these rumors date back 30+ years, though. > > JRJ > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 22:35:17 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 22:35:17 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kyle, Any updates for the trip? On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I hope to start backing up my MicroVAX 3800 soon via the TK70. Sounds like > 8mm is more unreliable than the TK70, and I don't have but one > magneto-optical disk. > > Are there any precautions I need to take before sticking a tape in the > drive? Pinch rollers that might be gooey? > > I assume the TK70 drive is backwards compatible with TK50 tapes? > > Lastly, I've got some tapes that I couldn't find much info on. Here are the > labels: > > ER206200-00 REV G 1.03 > P4000 DOWNLINE VMS SOFTWARE > 09-29-89 > (C) 1988 EMULEX > > ER2062014-00 REV A > P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00 > 05/14/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD) > (C) 1990 EMULEX > > ER2062014-00 REV 01 > P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00B2 > 05/1/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD) > (C) 1990 EMULEX > > ER2062014-00 REV 00 > P4000 LAT-TCP/IP SOFTWARE > 3-22-90 TK50 (VMS LOAD) > (C) 1990 EMULEX > > Are any of those worth keeping? Any tips on getting those tapes online > using my VAX? I know there are utilities for the PDP-8 and PDP-11 world, > but being thrown into VAX and VMS so quickly, it may take me a bit to catch > up. Any recommendations on reading material? > > I also have a tape for VAX Occam 2 from INMOS. I know what that is, as I > have a 64-node Transputer array. It'd be nice to get that going at some > point for fun. > > Thanks, > > Kyle > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 22:36:28 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 22:36:28 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Opps, that should have been private, sorry. On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 10:35 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Kyle, > > Any updates for the trip? > > On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > >> I hope to start backing up my MicroVAX 3800 soon via the TK70. Sounds like >> 8mm is more unreliable than the TK70, and I don't have but one >> magneto-optical disk. >> >> Are there any precautions I need to take before sticking a tape in the >> drive? Pinch rollers that might be gooey? >> >> I assume the TK70 drive is backwards compatible with TK50 tapes? >> >> Lastly, I've got some tapes that I couldn't find much info on. Here are >> the >> labels: >> >> ER206200-00 REV G 1.03 >> P4000 DOWNLINE VMS SOFTWARE >> 09-29-89 >> (C) 1988 EMULEX >> >> ER2062014-00 REV A >> P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00 >> 05/14/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD) >> (C) 1990 EMULEX >> >> ER2062014-00 REV 01 >> P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00B2 >> 05/1/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD) >> (C) 1990 EMULEX >> >> ER2062014-00 REV 00 >> P4000 LAT-TCP/IP SOFTWARE >> 3-22-90 TK50 (VMS LOAD) >> (C) 1990 EMULEX >> >> Are any of those worth keeping? Any tips on getting those tapes online >> using my VAX? I know there are utilities for the PDP-8 and PDP-11 world, >> but being thrown into VAX and VMS so quickly, it may take me a bit to >> catch >> up. Any recommendations on reading material? >> >> I also have a tape for VAX Occam 2 from INMOS. I know what that is, as I >> have a 64-node Transputer array. It'd be nice to get that going at some >> point for fun. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kyle >> > > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Aug 27 23:00:38 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 23:00:38 -0500 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55DFDCE6.90206@pico-systems.com> On 08/27/2015 09:18 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there > > I believe Lewis and Clark College in Godfrey, IL had a 1620 that I saw in about 1980. I have no idea if anyone in the area still has it. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 27 23:02:36 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 21:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <1B4FCEAB-BB12-48E7-8FCF-A3FDC4761935@aol.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1B4FCEAB-BB12-48E7-8FCF-A3FDC4761935@aol.com> Message-ID: >> There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote: > A possible lead? There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the Black Panthers started out there. If you make a list of every one that there was, you're still not likely to track one down. But, have fun trying. From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 27 23:13:38 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 23:13:38 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55DFDFF2.6020000@charter.net> On 8/27/2015 10:19 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I hope to start backing up my MicroVAX 3800 soon via the TK70. Sounds like > 8mm is more unreliable than the TK70, and I don't have but one > magneto-optical disk. > > Are there any precautions I need to take before sticking a tape in the > drive? Pinch rollers that might be gooey? > > I assume the TK70 drive is backwards compatible with TK50 tapes? > > Lastly, I've got some tapes that I couldn't find much info on. Here are the > labels: > > ER206200-00 REV G 1.03 > P4000 DOWNLINE VMS SOFTWARE > 09-29-89 > (C) 1988 EMULEX > > ER2062014-00 REV A > P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00 > 05/14/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD) > (C) 1990 EMULEX > > ER2062014-00 REV 01 > P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00B2 > 05/1/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD) > (C) 1990 EMULEX > > ER2062014-00 REV 00 > P4000 LAT-TCP/IP SOFTWARE > 3-22-90 TK50 (VMS LOAD) > (C) 1990 EMULEX > > Are any of those worth keeping? Any tips on getting those tapes online > using my VAX? I know there are utilities for the PDP-8 and PDP-11 world, > but being thrown into VAX and VMS so quickly, it may take me a bit to catch > up. Any recommendations on reading material? > > I also have a tape for VAX Occam 2 from INMOS. I know what that is, as I > have a 64-node Transputer array. It'd be nice to get that going at some > point for fun. > > Thanks, > > Kyle > Looking at www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex for P4000 I found a manual that seems to relate t the tapes you have. Those tapes are for an Emulex terminal server called the Performance 4000-T. If you don't have such a unit, then those tapes won't be of much value, but I'd suggest you not throw them away, but instead send them to someone who can image them, or image them yourself. Regardless, those tapes won't help you much with your stated goals. A TK70 can read a TK50 tape, but it can only write on a tape that has not been written on by a TK50, and the TK50 media would not be appropriate to use in a TK70 even if it were completely erased: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_0996.html (Though the first paragraph switches the TZ30 (SCSI) and the TK50.) IIRC, the way I did my VAXen backups was to use the standalone BACKUP utility and wrote TK70 tapes, then transferred an image of those tapes to my PC via Ethernet. TK50's and TK70's don't have pinch rollers. Instead, a microprocessor controls tape speed and tensioning. There is a technical manual on the TK50 on bitsavers, but not one for the TK70 (but their are drawings for a TK70). But I did find a TK70 owner's manual here: http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/0tk70om1.pdf (Only the Owner's manual - a quick search did not find a technical manual). Gooooooooooooooogle is your friend..... ;) JRJ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 27 23:28:37 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 21:28:37 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1B4FCEAB-BB12-48E7-8FCF-A3FDC4761935@aol.com> Message-ID: <55DFE375.4030600@sydex.com> On 08/27/2015 09:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in >>> Madison, WI > On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote: >> A possible lead? > > There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the > Black Panthers started out there. ...and let's not forget all of the 1620 panels that were used in the film "The Forbin Project"... --Chuck From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Aug 27 23:39:58 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 21:39:58 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If I'm not mistaken, TK70 drive can read but not write TK50 tapes. I have very limited experience with this family of drives so far, but what little I have is not good. Pictures: https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617511461452013568 https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617519989721923584 Maybe my tapes need baking or something to keep the oxide from shedding? I haven't tried it yet. Unfortunately, my failure mode results in a labor-intensive fiddly manual tape extraction job followed by manually rewinding tapes into cartridges designed to make it very difficult to do anything manually, so I haven't found the motivation to resume experimenting yet. If and when I resume experimenting, I might look into making some sort of gizmo to let me unlock the two cartridge spool locks and then manually rewind the tape, without needing to disassemble the cartridge with springs popping out all over the place. Maybe something 3D printed the depresses the latches, with a crank that engages the spool? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 23:43:30 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 23:43:30 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <55DFDFF2.6020000@charter.net> References: <55DFDFF2.6020000@charter.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 11:13 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > Looking at www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex for P4000 I found a manual that > seems to relate t the tapes you have. Those tapes are for an Emulex > terminal server called the Performance 4000-T. If you don't have such a > unit, then those tapes won't be of much value, but I'd suggest you not > throw them away, but instead send them to someone who can image them, or > image them yourself. > > Regardless, those tapes won't help you much with your stated goals. > Definitely wouldn't throw anything like that away. I'll see about imaging them sometime, or if someone has an immediate need, feel free to contact me. A TK70 can read a TK50 tape, but it can only write on a tape that has > not been written on by a TK50, and the TK50 media would not be > appropriate to use in a TK70 even if it were completely erased: > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_0996.html > > (Though the first paragraph switches the TZ30 (SCSI) and the TK50.) > Thanks for the link. That's unfortunate to hear, but I suppose the TK50s wouldn't do me much good anyways. Imagine how many it'd take to back up my two 1.2 GB Seagate Sabre drives! IIRC, the way I did my VAXen backups was to use the standalone BACKUP > utility and wrote TK70 tapes, then transferred an image of those tapes > to my PC via Ethernet. > > TK50's and TK70's don't have pinch rollers. Instead, a microprocessor > controls tape speed and tensioning. > > There is a technical manual on the TK50 on bitsavers, but not one for > the TK70 (but their are drawings for a TK70). But I did find a TK70 > owner's manual here: > > http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/0tk70om1.pdf > > (Only the Owner's manual - a quick search did not find a technical manual). > > Gooooooooooooooogle is your friend..... ;) > Yup, I'm aware of the owner's manual, but my question was more aimed at "What are the common failure modes of this drive?" rather than how to operate it. I'll see what it'll take to get my VAX connected via Ethernet. Looks like I've got the hardware, but not sure about the software just yet. Sounds like they're reliable enough, so I may see about reading some tapes in sometime. A friend says I can take some of his TK70s, and another one said I can take as many 8mm tapes I can carry. Not sure if the latter is worth it... :) Kyle From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 23:45:02 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 23:45:02 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 11:39 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > If I'm not mistaken, TK70 drive can read but not write TK50 tapes. > > I have very limited experience with this family of drives so far, but what > little I have is not good. Pictures: > > https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617511461452013568 > > https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617519989721923584 > > Maybe my tapes need baking or something to keep the oxide from shedding? I > haven't tried it yet. Unfortunately, my failure mode results in a > labor-intensive fiddly manual tape extraction job followed by manually > rewinding tapes into cartridges designed to make it very difficult to do > anything manually, so I haven't found the motivation to resume > experimenting yet. If and when I resume experimenting, I might look into > making some sort of gizmo to let me unlock the two cartridge spool locks > and then manually rewind the tape, without needing to disassemble the > cartridge with springs popping out all over the place. Maybe something 3D > printed the depresses the latches, with a crank that engages the spool? > Yikes...I hope mine turns out a bit more reliable than that. As it turns out, I bought a spare TK70 a while back at a hamfest and rediscovered it the other day, so if all else fails, I guess I have that to turn to. Is your 730 booting VMS yet? Kyle From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Aug 27 23:46:19 2015 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 22:46:19 -0600 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can confirm that back in the day (has that been 25 years ago now?) I was able to read a couple of TK-50's I'd made in school with a TK-70 that I had access to through a friend's work. Mind you, even new the TK-50 was a woe-be-gotten piece-of-xxxxx that worked right about as often as the Cubs win the World Series. I can't imagine the pain and suffering that you'd go through today to read one. But good luck! Maybe I just had a run of bad luck with them... Warner On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 10:39 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > If I'm not mistaken, TK70 drive can read but not write TK50 tapes. > > I have very limited experience with this family of drives so far, but what > little I have is not good. Pictures: > > https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617511461452013568 > > https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617519989721923584 > > Maybe my tapes need baking or something to keep the oxide from shedding? I > haven't tried it yet. Unfortunately, my failure mode results in a > labor-intensive fiddly manual tape extraction job followed by manually > rewinding tapes into cartridges designed to make it very difficult to do > anything manually, so I haven't found the motivation to resume > experimenting yet. If and when I resume experimenting, I might look into > making some sort of gizmo to let me unlock the two cartridge spool locks > and then manually rewind the tape, without needing to disassemble the > cartridge with springs popping out all over the place. Maybe something 3D > printed the depresses the latches, with a crank that engages the spool? > > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Aug 27 23:55:20 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 21:55:20 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6870A94B-AC06-44A0-9334-A2A9C988302B@nf6x.net> > On Aug 27, 2015, at 21:45, Kyle Owen wrote: > Is your 730 booting VMS yet? Yes! I can boot 7.3 (IIRC) from the R80 or 5.3 (IIRC) from the RL02. I haven't gotten networking up and running yet, but I did manage to make tape backups of the R80 and RL02 on the TU80 tape drive (I think!). I've been distracted by different squirrels for a while, but at least I set the project on the back burner after making some significant progress. I was hoping to use a TK50 on the VAX and a TK30 on my Sun Ultra 60 to transfer data, but that project yielded much more frustration than success so far. If I gain the ability to somehow run a 1/2" magtape drive on one of my modern computers (Ultra 60, Macbook or Mac Pro) then that could also provide a way to transfer stuff in both directions. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 00:04:16 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 00:04:16 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <6870A94B-AC06-44A0-9334-A2A9C988302B@nf6x.net> References: <6870A94B-AC06-44A0-9334-A2A9C988302B@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 11:55 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > On Aug 27, 2015, at 21:45, Kyle Owen wrote: > > Is your 730 booting VMS yet? > > Yes! I can boot 7.3 (IIRC) from the R80 or 5.3 (IIRC) from the RL02. I > haven't gotten networking up and running yet, but I did manage to make tape > backups of the R80 and RL02 on the TU80 tape drive (I think!). > > I've been distracted by different squirrels for a while, but at least I > set the project on the back burner after making some significant progress. > I was hoping to use a TK50 on the VAX and a TK30 on my Sun Ultra 60 to > transfer data, but that project yielded much more frustration than success > so far. > > If I gain the ability to somehow run a 1/2" magtape drive on one of my > modern computers (Ultra 60, Macbook or Mac Pro) then that could also > provide a way to transfer stuff in both directions. Nice. I would like to see some more obsolete gear hooked up to modern computers like you say. I was happy to get my punched card reader interfaced to my MacBook, but what really impressed me was the fellow in the northeast who got the RL02 connected via USB to a modern Linux system, fully usable by the system. That's really cool. Kyle From kevalm at aol.com Fri Aug 28 00:07:34 2015 From: kevalm at aol.com (Kevin Tikker) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 22:07:34 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1B4FCEAB-BB12-48E7-8FCF-A3FDC4761935@aol.com> Message-ID: I went to both Laney and Berkeley City College so you may have a clue. Thank you Kevin Sent from my iPhone On Aug 27, 2015, at 9:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI >> On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote: >> >> A possible lead? > > There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the Black Panthers started out there. > > If you make a list of every one that there was, you're still not likely to track one down. > But, have fun trying. > > > > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Aug 28 00:08:37 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 22:08:37 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:28:30 -0500 Ben Sinclair wrote: > The CHM has a bit of information, and links to three other 1620's that > they know about: > http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/ > > From what I've been reading, there may be only one operational 1620 > right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one. The IBM 1620 at the CHM is a running computer. There were two teams that worked on the 1620 at the CHM. The first Team got it running. Unfortunately, IBM used the wrong kind of solder on the core memory and so the wires of the core memory literally "dissolved". Modern memory was used to replace the original core memory and an interface to a PC was created and used to emulate peripheral devices. It ran as a demo system for several years when the CHM was in its public "Visible Storage" phase. A second Team - of which I was a member - worked to enhance the 1620's peripheral device interfaces and ultimately create new controllers for such devices as an IBM plotter. We also were trying to come up with demos that would make the IBM 1620 interesting to the general public (and not just techies or folks who had an emotional connection with the 1620). At the same time, the CHM was also working to complete its IBM-1401 restoration (including many pieces of Unit Record gear) - and IBM 1401, DEC PDP-1 and Babbage public demos Many of us on the 1620 Team were also on other restoration Teams - and As time progressed, it became clear that the IBM 1620, while a running computer, was not as demonstrable as the other systems. That - and many of us simply ran out of time working on it. So our running IBM 1620 ended up in our storage facility rather than as a public CHM demo system. It is entirely possible that at a future date it will again become a public demonstration system.. Cheers, Lyle > On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > >> degnan > >> Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > >> Subject: Re: IBM 1620 > >> > >> How many exist on Earth at this point? > > > > > > Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps.... > > > >> > >> On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben wrote: > >> > On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. > >> >> > >> >> Kevin Tikker > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > > >> > > >> > Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and > >> > new. Good luck Digging for one. > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Bill > >> vintagecomputer.net > > > > > -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From kevalm at aol.com Fri Aug 28 00:09:07 2015 From: kevalm at aol.com (Kevin Tikker) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 22:09:07 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55DFE375.4030600@sydex.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1B4FCEAB-BB12-48E7-8FCF-A3FDC4761935@aol.com> <55DFE375.4030600@sydex.com> Message-ID: Great series of books the film was based on Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 27, 2015, at 9:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 08/27/2015 09:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in >>>> Madison, WI >>> On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote: >>> A possible lead? >> >> There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the >> Black Panthers started out there. > > ...and let's not forget all of the 1620 panels that were used in the film "The Forbin Project"... > > --Chuck From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 18:13:35 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 19:13:35 -0400 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... Message-ID: > > Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 15:33:19 -0400 > From: Paul Koning > Subject: Re: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity > and laziness.... > > > Quite possibly two different phases, and if so, the would be 90 degrees > > out of phase with each other. > > 90? Three phase power is 120 degrees apart, center-tapped "two phase" > home power is 180 degrees, but I don't know of any power company service > that produces 90 degree shifts. > > In any case, RP06s use three phase power. The issue wasn't the power in > this particular story, but rather the ground wire (the green "protective > ground" that isn't supposed to carry current at all under normal operation). > > paul > Not exactly true. RP06 drives are typically connected to 3-phase power, but only use two of the three phases. I have and RP06 running at home on 110/220VAC 2-phase. -- Michael Thompson From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 28 00:30:14 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 22:30:14 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <55DFF1E6.8080204@sydex.com> On 08/27/2015 10:08 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > Many of us on the 1620 Team were also on other restoration Teams - > and As time progressed, it became clear that the IBM 1620, while a > running computer, was not as demonstrable as the other systems. That > - and many of us simply ran out of time working on it. So our running > IBM 1620 ended up in our storage facility rather than as a public CHM > demo system. > > It is entirely possible that at a future date it will again become a > public demonstration system.. Well, other than the Model I (CADET) typewriter acting as if it were going to fly apart at any time, the 1311 disk drive was fun to watch. The 1622, not so much--if you've seen one card reader/punch, you've seen them all. What I remember the most is that as the punch heated up, it'd start throwing verify errors like crazy. Life in the slow lane... --Chuck From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Aug 28 00:36:56 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 22:36:56 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <6870A94B-AC06-44A0-9334-A2A9C988302B@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > On Aug 27, 2015, at 22:04, Kyle Owen wrote: > > what really impressed me was the fellow in > the northeast who got the RL02 connected via USB to a modern Linux system, > fully usable by the system. That's really cool. Yeah, I think that project is so cool! I had thought about doing something like that, but he actually did it. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From useddec at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 02:23:04 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 02:23:04 -0500 Subject: 3 8 inch drives, new and used floppies Message-ID: ? 20150827_125000.jpg ?? 20150827_125000.jpg ?If interested, please contact me off list. From useddec at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 02:25:10 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 02:25:10 -0500 Subject: 3 8 inch drives, new and used floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ? 20150827_124943.jpg ? On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 2:23 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > ? > 20150827_125000.jpg > > ?? > 20150827_125000.jpg > > ?If interested, please contact me off list. > From bear at typewritten.org Fri Aug 28 01:22:11 2015 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 23:22:11 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> On Aug 27, 2015, at 9:39 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > Maybe my tapes need baking or something to keep the oxide from shedding? Yes, your tapes need baking. Even for folks who don't experience problems as catastrophic as yours, the TK50, TK30, and TK70 will each stall out if it senses the tape dragging even slightly. That includes for rewind/unload. ok bear. -- until further notice From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Aug 28 01:50:16 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 23:50:16 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> Message-ID: > On Aug 27, 2015, at 23:22 , r.stricklin wrote: > > Yes, your tapes need baking. Even for folks who don't experience problems as catastrophic as yours, the TK50, TK30, and TK70 will each stall out if it senses the tape dragging even slightly. That includes for rewind/unload. At least in the case of the TK30, it appears to insist on digging itself further and further into the hole. It runs the tape forwards first, then it experiences trouble, then it panics and quits. Each attempt just puts more tape on the take-up reel at best, and can end up making a tangled mess like the one I pictured. Extracting the tape without cutting it and dumping it on the floor takes a lot of effort and disassembly. Ok, so I need to build my media ez-bake oven before I try anything else with my TK drives. I think I ought to build a cartridge de-interlocker and manual rewinder gizmo, too, to make the failures less painful. Not this month, but one of these days! Can the TK50 cartridges be baked as-is, or do the reels need to come out of the casings to get air flow? I'm new to this magnetic pastry chef stuff. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From bear at typewritten.org Fri Aug 28 02:41:33 2015 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 00:41:33 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> On Aug 27, 2015, at 11:50 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > It runs the tape forwards first, then it experiences trouble, then it panics and quits. Yes. > Can the TK50 cartridges be baked as-is It may depend on how effective your setup is, but I bake mine as-is. ok bear. -- until further notice From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Aug 28 02:46:12 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 00:46:12 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> Given that it's summertime, I wonder if I could just leave the tapes in my truck for a week to bake them? :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 03:50:53 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 09:50:53 +0100 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> Message-ID: <0ab401d0e16e$a5f78a60$f1e69f20$@gmail.com> Many 1620's were leased and IBM recovered them at the end of the lease. There is a note somewhere I have seen about the one at Lancaster University have a disk drive replaced and then returned to IBM within weeks... .. on the other had I know the one at Newcastle Polytechnic hung around for at least a year. I wonder what happened to the one at Constantine College (later Teeside Polytechnic, and now Teesside University) which ran my first Fortran Program... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger > Sent: 28 August 2015 03:41 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: IBM 1620 > > On 8/27/2015 9:18 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > > > Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there > > > > There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI > when I started school, and rumor was that one of them ended up in > somebody's basement. Whether or not that rumor was true, and if so, if it is > still around, or not, I have no idea. > > (Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in > town, as well). > > Both of these rumors date back 30+ years, though. > > JRJ From operon.lac at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 02:59:46 2015 From: operon.lac at gmail.com (Operon Lac) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 04:59:46 -0300 Subject: DEC 9 Track Tapes (was Re: Applikon Workstation?) In-Reply-To: <55DE2CDB.9020101@charter.net> References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> <55DE1163.5000309@charter.net> <55DE2CDB.9020101@charter.net> Message-ID: What takes, today, present time, to read 1/2-inch reel-to-reel tape? Years ago, I've found literally HUNDREDS of half inch reel-to-reel tape, stacked outside a telco switching building. I managed to scavenge one hundred and ninety of them. Ended up throwing (because of lack of storing space... and no prospect to be able to do anything with it...) 176. I kept 14 reels. Anyway... are there still people throwing/giving hardware able to read that? Hugs. ?.// On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 8/26/2015 2:21 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > > >> On 8/26/2015 8:00 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > >> > >>> Ah, I knew that sounded familiar. I have a pretty sizable stack of > what > >>> appear to be original nine-track tapes with their pdp11 software on > >>> them in > >>> my collection. Any interest? I could try to get my tu-10 going > >>> again to > >>> image them, but might need some help > >>> > >>> --jake > >>> > >> > >> I have an HP 9 Track drive (800 - 6250 BPI), and a "baking" setup I can > >> use if you wanted to send them to Madison, WI. > > > > Just out of curiosity, which model HP drive is that? A modern > > streamer with an 800bpi option? > > > > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > > > > Relatively modern: HP 88780B > From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Fri Aug 28 04:14:40 2015 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 09:14:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620) In-Reply-To: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> Message-ID: <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> > > (Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in > town, as well). > Speaking of which: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Control-Data-160-Computer-System-Vintage-Computer-/252070822992?hash=item3ab0978450 Maybe it's the one from that basement :) Cheers, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Aug 28 04:44:54 2015 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 03:44:54 -0600 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <55DFDFF2.6020000@charter.net> Message-ID: <55E02D96.60807@e-bbes.com> On 2015-08-27 22:43, Kyle Owen wrote: > Yup, I'm aware of the owner's manual, but my question was more aimed at > "What are the common failure modes of this drive?" rather than how to > operate it. I'll see what it'll take to get my VAX connected via Ethernet. > Looks like I've got the hardware, but not sure about the software just yet. http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/tk50.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 28 07:15:33 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 06:15:33 -0600 Subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620) In-Reply-To: <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55E050E5.8090705@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/28/2015 3:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > We all KNOW the government people still have one running for your tax $$$$. After all the bribes and shady dealings it gets turned on twice a year. Too old to have the Y2000 bug. Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 28 07:56:16 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 08:56:16 -0400 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5BCA5C90-A837-4780-A0D7-DCCFC819DB46@comcast.net> > On Aug 27, 2015, at 7:13 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > >> ... >> In any case, RP06s use three phase power. The issue wasn't the power in >> this particular story, but rather the ground wire (the green "protective >> ground" that isn't supposed to carry current at all under normal operation). > > Not exactly true. RP06 drives are typically connected to 3-phase power, but > only use two of the three phases. I have and RP06 running at home on > 110/220VAC 2-phase. That's interesting. I was told that an RP06 requires attention to the correct phase connections or it will attempt to spin in the wrong direction, implying that it uses a 3 phase spindle motor. Or perhaps that was a different RPnn? Or perhaps it was simply an urban legend? paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 28 07:59:45 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 08:59:45 -0400 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55DFF1E6.8080204@sydex.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55DFF1E6.8080204@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 28, 2015, at 1:30 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ... > Well, other than the Model I (CADET) typewriter acting as if it were going to fly apart at any time, the 1311 disk drive was fun to watch. Especially if you didn't have the "direct seek" option. I had a one-card program that would do for (i=0; i<100; i++) seek_cylinder(i). That doesn't step track to track as you would expect; instead, it goes from track n to 0 to n+1, resulting in progressively wilder and slower seeks as n increases. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 28 08:05:21 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 09:05:21 -0400 Subject: DEC 9 Track Tapes (was Re: Applikon Workstation?) In-Reply-To: References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> <55DE1163.5000309@charter.net> <55DE2CDB.9020101@charter.net> Message-ID: > On Aug 28, 2015, at 3:59 AM, Operon Lac wrote: > > What takes, today, present time, to read 1/2-inch reel-to-reel tape? > Years ago, I've found literally HUNDREDS of half inch reel-to-reel tape, > stacked outside a telco switching building. I managed to scavenge one > hundred and ninety of them. Ended up throwing (because of lack of storing > space... and no prospect to be able to do anything with it...) 176. I kept > 14 reels. Anyway... are there still people throwing/giving hardware able to > read that? Yes, there are plenty of people who can read 9 track tape. More impressively still, there are also people (not many) who can read 7 track tape. Some of these have developed the skills and processes needed to recover data from old tapes, which often requires special case to avoid having the oxide come off on the first read attempt. I believe there are also some who have created specialized drives with DSP technology, able to recover data from marginal tapes that standard drives would not handle. If you have tapes but no drive, and an interest in having the data recovered, you should ask here; my experience is that you'll get pointers to people interested in helping out, especially if there is some reason to believe the data to be recovered is "interesting" or unusual in some way. The same sort of comments apply to other old storage technology, like paper tape or DECtape/LINCtape. Disk drives (removable packs) seem to be harder, I suppose because there are so many incompatible formats and a given drive will typically read only its own format. The RM80 pack I have will mechanically fit into an RM03 drive, but that drive won't read the format... paul From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 28 08:36:54 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 09:36:54 -0400 Subject: Items to get rid of - North Haven CT 06473 area Message-ID: <55E063F6.8040204@sbcglobal.net> I got a few items I need to get rid of: 2 HP LaserJet 5MP - One I know works. The other I had for parts, I think it works. I believe I have a PS module in it. There is also a RAM chip siting with it too, don't have the specs at the moment. Includes 3 toner carts, all in various states of used. HP JetDirect external printer server - LPT, RJ-45, BNC Black IBM Model M type keyboard with trackpoint. PS/2 mechanical keyboard with AT connector. Shipping is unfortunately something I can't do at this time. Monetary donation would be nice, but I just need these to go. Some good lager or ale wouldn't be turned down either... :) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Aug 28 09:15:37 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 16:15:37 +0200 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <55DDC2CD.30902@softjar.se> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> <54B889EE.4050807@softjar.se> <5575CAE9.4070207@softjar.se> <55928194.5040506@softjar.se> <55DDC2CD.30902@softjar.se> Message-ID: <55E06D09.5000901@update.uu.se> I have received some bug reports, and it turns out there was some very serious bug in the release, which corrupted low memory, including interrupt vectors. A new release have been cut. Please update immediately if you have updated since the announcement I made two days ago... Johnny On 2015-08-26 15:44, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Close to two months since my last official release, so I figure it's > time I do another one. > > So - there is a new release of BQTCP/IP. I strongly encourage anyone who > uses this software to upgrade. > > A short list of changed: > . TCP have been rewritten to not use any system pool at all. > Even the small amount previously used added up when a lot of > traffic was going on. > At the same time, IPPOOL usage for connections have also decreased, > as memory is only allocated when needed for transmissions. This > also lead to the ability to have larger transmit buffers. > . A new HELP file have been included for some help in general. > If installed, you can see information through HELP/IP > . FTP rate calculation was slightly wrong. Fixed now. > . Various included tasks have now been built without the need for > language specific resident libraries so that they can be used > on any system. > . TCP could disconnect sessions erroneously under some circumstances. > Fixed. > . Telnet daemon can give more comprehensive welcome messages now. > . WWW server CGI scripts could cause the web connection to close > even though the script was not finished. Fixed. > . The SPOOF detection/prevention now will not block the DNS server. > . Improved response times for TCP connection establishment. > . If a daemon created a task, and the task never picked up the > connection that came in, the socket was left in a broken state. > Fixed. > > As usual, the distribution is available from: > ftp://madame.update.uu.se/bqtcp.dsk > ftp://madame.update.uu.se/bqtcp.tap > ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip/tcpip.dsk > > The documentation is also available through ftp on Madame, or also at > http://madame.update.uu.se/tcpipdoc > > Right now, I don't know what the next project will be. Some testing and > improvements. But I probably need to take a step back and look at the > bigger picture. Do anyone have any special wishes (and don't say SSH or > IPv6 :-) ). > > Oh, and as a icing on the cake, http://magica.update.uu.se (or > telnet://magica.update.uu.se) will lead you to a real, physical > PDP-11/70 running this software. Magica have been on the internet in the > past, but she has been down for quite some time. But I'm happy to > announce that the machine is starting to live again. > > Johnny > > On 2015-06-30 13:46, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> I'm happy to announce a new release of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. >> >> Since I'm broadening the scope of the announcement slightly, a more >> complete list of features is included, and not just what changed since >> last. For anyone who is currently running TCP/IP for RSX, I strongly >> encourage you to update to this latest version. Several improvements >> have gone in in the last couple of weeks. Most important change is that >> there now is telnet support, both client and server side. >> >> The TCP/IP for RSX that I've written is sometimes referred to as >> BQTCP/IP, just to make clear that it is a different product than Process >> Software's TCPWARE, or JSA's TCP/IP. >> >> BQTCP/IP is a rather feature rich TCP/IP implementation, which also >> comes with libraries for various high level languages. The API is not >> compatible, even at the source level, with Unix, but on the other hand, >> if people write some code, they will see that it is a very easy API to >> work with. The reasons for the incompatibilities are several, including >> both resource concerns and differences between how RSX works and Unix >> like operating systems. >> >> BQTCP/IP has tried to comply with all relevant RFCs, but I'm sure there >> are corners where it does not do things right. It also does not demand >> much resources. It do require RSX-11M-PLUS with split I/D space, and it >> has only been tested properly on RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6. It should work on >> any version 4 release of RSX-11M-PLUS, but there might be a couple of >> tweaks or fixes needed. >> >> BQTCP/IP is distributed in binary form, so very little compilation is >> required to get it up and running. However, pretty much all utilities do >> come with sources. The actual TCP/IP stack sources are not included. I >> do not have a good setup for distributing them in a sane way, and it has >> had a low priority on my list of things to do. But I do not mind >> distributing the sources as a general principle. >> >> All that said, BQTCP/IP current supports the following protocols: >> >> o Ethernet and loopback interfaces. >> o ARP. BQTCP/IP can use Ethernet in co-existance with DECnet, or >> standalone using the provided Unibus ethernet device driver. >> o IP. The largest IP packets supported are approximately >> 8KB. >> o ICMP. >> o UDP. The largest UDP packets supported are approximately >> 8KB. >> o TCP. The window is approximately 8KB in size, and TCP do >> manage out of order packets in an efficient way. >> >> BQTCP/IP supports the following applications: >> o DHCP. DHCP can be used to configure interface addresses, network >> masks, default gateways, DNS servers and NTP servers dynamically. >> o NTP. NTP can be used to set the local time. >> o TELNET. The TELNET server hooks in to the standard TT: terminal >> driver, and the number of terminals to create is configurable. >> The TELNET client can be used to connect to other systems. >> o FTP. The FTP server can serve all kind of files to other RSX >> systems, and can serve text and binary files to any system. >> The FTP client can retrieve RSX format files from RSX servers, >> and text, binary and block format files from any system. >> o TFTP. The TFTP server and client can be used for simpler file >> transfer operations. >> o RWHOD. RWHOD is a program that reports current users and uptime >> from RSX, for other systems to collect. >> o IRC. IRC is a program to communicate with other users around >> the world. >> o IRCBOT. IRCBOT is a small example robot program connecting to IRC >> and performing a service for IRC users. >> o PCL. PCL is a protocol for printing, used by HP (and other) printers >> over a network. The PCL implementation in BQTCP/IP appears as a >> print symbiont, which you can create a printer queue for. >> o WWW. WWW (or World Wide Web) is a service that can present hypertext >> information to clients. The WWW server in BQTCP/IP also supports CGI, >> which makes it possible to create dynamic content. >> o DNS. BQTCP/IP have DNS implemented as an ACP, that anyone can query >> to get translations between IP addresses and domain names. It also >> supports different users using different name servers, or private >> translations. >> o SINK. A standard TCP service. >> o ECHO. A standard TCP service. >> o DAYTIME. A standard TCP service. >> o QUOTD. A standard TCP service. >> o IDENTD. A standard TCP service. >> >> BQTCP/IP also have automatic IP spoof detection and prevention. >> >> Additional tools are IFCONFIG, PING, TRACEROUTE, NETSTAT as well as two >> new pages for RMD. >> >> High level language libraries exists for BASIC+2, PDP-11 C and FORTRAN-77. >> >> I'm sure I have forgotten a thing or three, but that's a fairly >> comprehensive list. >> >> The documentation is a weak point, but there is hopefully enough >> documentation to get people running, and I am happy to answer any >> questions, or give support if needed. BQTCP/IP is already running on the >> internet, and have been for a while. People who are curious to check it >> out can ether look at http://madame.update.uu.se/, or telnet to >> telnet://madame.update.uu.se and login as user GUEST with password >> GUEST, or use ftp against ftp://madame.update.uu.se. Anonymous ftp >> account exist. >> >> As usual, the distribution is available from: >> ftp://madame.update.uu.se/bqtcp.dsk >> ftp://madame.update.uu.se/bqtcp.tap >> ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip/tcpip.dsk >> >> The .tap file is an RSX virtual tape. It is only possible to download >> and use if you are using FTP from anther RSX system and fetch the file. >> The .dsk files are virtual RL02 images that are useful both from within >> RSX as well as through emulators. >> >> The documentation is also available through ftp on Madame, or also at >> http://madame.update.uu.se/tcpipdoc >> >> Johnny > > From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Aug 28 09:20:23 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 16:20:23 +0200 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <5BCA5C90-A837-4780-A0D7-DCCFC819DB46@comcast.net> References: <5BCA5C90-A837-4780-A0D7-DCCFC819DB46@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55E06E27.10700@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-28 14:56, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Aug 27, 2015, at 7:13 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> >>> ... >>> In any case, RP06s use three phase power. The issue wasn't the power in >>> this particular story, but rather the ground wire (the green "protective >>> ground" that isn't supposed to carry current at all under normal operation). >> >> Not exactly true. RP06 drives are typically connected to 3-phase power, but >> only use two of the three phases. I have and RP06 running at home on >> 110/220VAC 2-phase. > > That's interesting. I was told that an RP06 requires attention to the correct phase connections or it will attempt to spin in the wrong direction, implying that it uses a 3 phase spindle motor. Or perhaps that was a different RPnn? Or perhaps it was simply an urban legend? Paul, that was my belief as well. I knew the RP06 only used 2 out of the 3 phases, but I thought the motor was depending on them. Anyway, I located the manual, and it turns out that the actual phases are not important. Yes, it uses 2 phases, but only to get the proper voltage (or so I gathered from the manual). You can actually update the drive in the field to run on different types of power sources. The only thing fixed is frequency, so you cannot move from 50Hz to 60Hz or back easily. Johnny From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Aug 28 09:42:42 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 09:42:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Lyle Bickley wrote: > The IBM 1620 at the CHM is a running computer. There were two teams that > worked on the 1620 at the CHM. The first Team got it running. > Unfortunately, IBM used the wrong kind of solder on the core memory and > so the wires of the core memory literally "dissolved". With all the different solder alloys I work with regularly, I have to ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it the alloy itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and then failed to clean away all the residue? If they used a rosin-based flux, was it due to the specific activator used in the flux? From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 28 10:10:55 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:10:55 -0500 Subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620) In-Reply-To: <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55E079FF.5080202@charter.net> Cool. Wonder what it will go for. JRJ On 8/28/2015 4:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > > > > >> >> (Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in >> town, as well). >> > > > Speaking of which: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Control-Data-160-Computer-System-Vintage-Computer-/252070822992?hash=item3ab0978450 > > > Maybe it's the one from that basement :) > > > Cheers, > Pierre > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 28 10:09:50 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 08:09:50 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> On 8/28/15 12:46 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > leave the tapes in my truck for a week to bake them? :) > not enough airflow From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 10:16:55 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:16:55 -0500 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > > > >Regarding the keycaps -- Corey Cohen suggested that I remove them and soak > them in 3% peroxide. Going to have to try that. > Well, remember this is with just 3% hydrogen peroxide, which is quite a bit less than what's in the hair gels (what's it, 20-40%)? I used this on my commodore 128D, just a handful of parts and it worked fine. It did take several days to work though, which is probably better as far as the blooiming and streaking effects that happen with the stronger treatments. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 28 10:17:54 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 08:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On 8/28/15 12:46 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> leave the tapes in my truck for a week to bake them? :) On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Al Kossow wrote: > not enough airflow humidity? From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Aug 28 10:44:10 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 08:44:10 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> > On Aug 28, 2015, at 08:09, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 8/28/15 12:46 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> leave the tapes in my truck for a week to bake them? :) >> > > not enough airflow Well, I guess I'll need to build a little convection tape baker, then. Maybe I'll use something like an Arduino to control the temperature. I want to build a toaster oven solder reflow over, too, which might use the same controller. But operating at a much higher temperature, of course. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From mspproductions at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 10:52:03 2015 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:52:03 -0400 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <2C24DD34-B156-4F03-928A-8B57FC656E61@gmail.com> If you can find an "American Harvest" food dehydrator, those work great for baking tapes, low controlled heat, a round form factor and it can hold 10" reels of tape. I use one for baking old EIAJ videotape. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 28, 2015, at 11:44 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >> On Aug 28, 2015, at 08:09, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> On 8/28/15 12:46 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >>> leave the tapes in my truck for a week to bake them? :) >> >> not enough airflow > > Well, I guess I'll need to build a little convection tape baker, then. Maybe I'll use something like an Arduino to control the temperature. I want to build a toaster oven solder reflow over, too, which might use the same controller. But operating at a much higher temperature, of course. > > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Aug 28 10:58:10 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 08:58:10 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <2C24DD34-B156-4F03-928A-8B57FC656E61@gmail.com> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <2C24DD34-B156-4F03-928A-8B57FC656E61@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8837F026-13AB-4C89-8A44-20DEA36D2FA6@nf6x.net> > On Aug 28, 2015, at 08:52, Matt Patoray wrote: > > If you can find an "American Harvest" food dehydrator, those work great for baking tapes, low controlled heat, a round form factor and it can hold 10" reels of tape. Interesting! Is the central shaft small enough for 5.25" and 8" floppy disks to fit in it? I have a lot of 8" disks that need baking, too. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 28 11:01:05 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 09:01:05 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> On 08/28/2015 07:42 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > With all the different solder alloys I work with regularly, I have to > ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it the > alloy itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and then > failed to clean away all the residue? If they used a rosin-based > flux, was it due to the specific activator used in the flux? That's actually a little puzzling. 1401 core frames have survived well (got one in my desk drawer). You'd expect that the same process would be used for equipment that's pretty close to contemporary. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 28 11:08:27 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 09:08:27 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55DFF1E6.8080204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55E0877B.4060607@sydex.com> On 08/28/2015 05:59 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Especially if you didn't have the "direct seek" option. I had a > one-card program that would do for (i=0; i<100; i++) > seek_cylinder(i). That doesn't step track to track as you would > expect; instead, it goes from track n to 0 to n+1, resulting in > progressively wilder and slower seeks as n increases. Yup, the one I worked with did not have the "direct seek option". What was interesting from a historical standpoint was the way in which the 1311 was used by Monitor II-D. IIRC, the first 25 cylinders were dubbed "work cylinders" with no formal filesystem. The remainder was used for more-or-less permanent storage of programs--not so much as a data store. The CADET I worked on did have the Indirect Addressing feature, which I believe was required to run Monitor II-D. Hard today to think of an addressing mode as an optional ($$$) feature. The Model II had an index register. I can still remember many of the 1620 numeric opcodes. Strange, considering that I can't remember where I put my keys or what I had for breakfast... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 28 11:20:15 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 09:20:15 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <8837F026-13AB-4C89-8A44-20DEA36D2FA6@nf6x.net> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <2C24DD34-B156-4F03-928A-8B57FC656E61@gmail.com> <8837F026-13AB-4C89-8A44-20DEA36D2FA6@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <55E08A3F.1080708@sydex.com> On 08/28/2015 08:58 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > Interesting! Is the central shaft small enough for 5.25" and 8" > floppy disks to fit in it? I have a lot of 8" disks that need baking, > too. If you've got access to woodworking equipment and some scrap plywood, you can built one easily enough from parts you may already have lying about. Insulate with rigid foam (polystyrene insulation works fine). My only out-of-pocket cost was for the PID controller and some 70C thermal fuses (you really do want a safety measure). Heat is provided by a 60W incandescent bulb. I stack 10" reels of tape using old cottage cheese containers, which fit the hub holes quite neatly. My oven looks like a nice piece of furniture--and even has casters so it can be easily rolled around. Not out of place in a living room. --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 28 11:28:12 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:28:12 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <55E08C1C.7070601@charter.net> On 8/28/2015 10:44 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> On Aug 28, 2015, at 08:09, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> On 8/28/15 12:46 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >>> leave the tapes in my truck for a week to bake them? :) >>> >> >> not enough airflow > > Well, I guess I'll need to build a little convection tape baker, then. Maybe I'll use something like an Arduino to control the temperature. I want to build a toaster oven solder reflow over, too, which might use the same controller. But operating at a much higher temperature, of course. > > Mine is similar in concept, using a PIC. I use a 250W lamp as the heating elements, and fans. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 28 11:30:38 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:30:38 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <8837F026-13AB-4C89-8A44-20DEA36D2FA6@nf6x.net> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <2C24DD34-B156-4F03-928A-8B57FC656E61@gmail.com> <8837F026-13AB-4C89-8A44-20DEA36D2FA6@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <55E08CAE.5000802@charter.net> On 8/28/2015 10:58 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> On Aug 28, 2015, at 08:52, Matt Patoray wrote: >> >> If you can find an "American Harvest" food dehydrator, those work great for baking tapes, low controlled heat, a round form factor and it can hold 10" reels of tape. > > Interesting! Is the central shaft small enough for 5.25" and 8" floppy disks to fit in it? I have a lot of 8" disks that need baking, too. > > Interesting. I have yet to experience the need to bake 8" floppies. JRJ From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 28 11:28:59 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 12:28:59 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> Message-ID: <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> >> >>> Regarding the keycaps -- Corey Cohen suggested that I remove them and soak them in 3% peroxide. Going to have to try that. > Well, remember this is with just 3% hydrogen peroxide, which is quite a bit less than what's in the hair gels (what's it, 20-40%)? I used this on my commodore 128D, just a handful of parts and it worked fine. It did take > several days to work though, which is probably better as far as the blooiming and streaking effects that happen with the stronger treatments. Ah! That explains my lack of results. I soaked the keys for five or six hours. They got clean, but didn't change color very much. Sounds like I pulled them out too soon. Several days, you say? The keys float (as noted in T's link), so I just turned them upside-down in the peroxide. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Aug 28 11:34:05 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:34:05 -0500 Subject: VMS drivers In-Reply-To: <55DFDCE6.90206@pico-systems.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <55DFDCE6.90206@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55E08D7D.6020901@pico-systems.com> Hello, guys, While rummaging through recovered backups from my MicroVAX I found a few items that might be of interest to the group. I got an MDB mag tape interface (quite possibly the ONLY Pertec Unformatted controller ever made for Q-bus) that follows the MT-11 register format. There was no driver for this. I got a homebrew MT-11 driver for Unibus machines from somebody at work, and hacked it up to assemble for VMS 4.7 and adjust to the quirks of the MDB board (which were REALLY minor). I also have a driver for my Jupiter 7 for the MicroVAX. Thus used a DRV11-WA DMA interface with some wire-wrapped glue logic to adapt to the Jupiter's 50-pin interface bus. It is based on the stock DRV11-WA driver, with some additional logic to handle the handshakes between Jupiter and the DRV11. Additionally, I built a graphics library based on the NASA min-Vicar image processing suite, which was a hideous hack job that ran on the PDP-11. That used pre-assigned, numbered files. I generalized it to use normal VMS files of arbitrary size, but otherwise kept most of the original functions. I used the VMS table driven parser, tparse, to parse most of the commands. I also knew a fair bit about Versatec printers back then, if anybody ever wants to get one of those hideous machines running. If anybody is interested in these drivers, etc. let me know. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 28 11:52:10 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 12:52:10 -0400 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <1EA04706-0A28-41D2-9462-64A12ABE48CE@comcast.net> > On Aug 28, 2015, at 11:44 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > ... > Well, I guess I'll need to build a little convection tape baker, then. Maybe I'll use something like an Arduino to control the temperature. I want to build a toaster oven solder reflow over, too, which might use the same controller. But operating at a much higher temperature, of course. If you can puzzle out German, you might find this article worth reading. It describes SMD reflow in a toaster oven, and some of the pitfalls. The main one is that the temperature sensor needs to be attached to the board, or to a (blank) copy of that board. If it's attached to something with a significantly different copper to etch ratio, it will be heated differently and your board will either not heat enough, or be overheated -- possibly enough to scorch it. https://www.beta-estore.com/download/rk/RK-10001_76.pdf paul From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Aug 28 11:57:22 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 09:57:22 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> Message-ID: <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> > Ah! That explains my lack of results. I soaked the keys for five or six > hours. They got clean, but didn't change color very much. Sounds like I > pulled them out too soon. Several days, you say? Has anyone tried a glass/plexi-glass bath w/ UV lights? It might get expensive if you want UV lights that are dimmable (to control strength) but UV lights and ballasts are not that expensive. A simple timer and maybe a reflective surface on the enclosure and you are good to go. Then real experiments can be done by varying exposure time and concentration of the solution to see if there is a happy medium. Problem is you need someone with lots of yellowed parts that they don't mind experimenting on/ruining in the process. -Ali From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 28 12:08:15 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 13:08:15 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> Message-ID: <55E0957F.5000305@snarc.net> >> Ah! That explains my lack of results. I soaked the keys for five or six hours. They got clean, but didn't change color very much. Sounds like I pulled them out too soon. Several days, you say? > Has anyone tried a glass/plexi-glass bath w/ UV lights? It might get expensive if you want UV lights that are dimmable (to control strength) but UV lights and ballasts are not that expensive. A simple timer and maybe a reflective surface on the enclosure and you are good to go. Then real experiments can be done by varying exposure time and concentration of the solution to see if there is a happy medium. Problem is you need someone with lots of yellowed parts that they don't mind experimenting on/ruining in the process. We're thinking about building that kind of "deyellowing station" in the MARCH warehouse. We have plenty of yellowed parts for experimenting. If the station/experiment works, then we might offer it as a service at VCF East next spring. Of course, anyone who submits their yellowed plastic will have to sign a waiver in case they're unhappy with the results, or if anything explodes and creates a wormhole. :) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 28 12:18:55 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:18:55 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <55E08CAE.5000802@charter.net> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <2C24DD34-B156-4F03-928A-8B57FC656E61@gmail.com> <8837F026-13AB-4C89-8A44-20DEA36D2FA6@nf6x.net> <55E08CAE.5000802@charter.net> Message-ID: <55E097FF.9090307@sydex.com> On 08/28/2015 09:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Interesting. I have yet to experience the need to bake 8" floppies. Clearly, you've never been presented with a load of 8" Radio Shack-branded floppies... "Wright Line" and "Wabash" branded floppies seem to share the undesirable characteristic. FWIW, I don't think that "sticky shed" has much to do with humidity, at least according to the audio tape folks. "Sticky bleed" problems are much nastier. I think that the selection of a food dehydrator was merely a convenient source of a ready-made temperature-controlled solution. The "Tapeheads" forum is a good source of information on this. --Chuck From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com Fri Aug 28 12:19:16 2015 From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 13:19:16 -0400 Subject: VMS drivers In-Reply-To: <55E08D7D.6020901@pico-systems.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <55DFDCE6.90206@pico-systems.com> <55E08D7D.6020901@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I am very interested in these drivers! I am new to the group please let me know the proper procedure/process. Thanks so much, Sue Skonetdki VMS Software Inc., > On Aug 28, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > Hello, guys, > > While rummaging through recovered backups from my MicroVAX I found a few items that might be of interest to the group. > > I got an MDB mag tape interface (quite possibly the ONLY Pertec Unformatted controller ever made for Q-bus) that follows the MT-11 register format. There was no driver for this. I got a homebrew MT-11 driver for Unibus machines from somebody at work, and hacked it up to assemble for VMS 4.7 and adjust to the quirks of the MDB board (which were REALLY minor). > > I also have a driver for my Jupiter 7 for the MicroVAX. Thus used a DRV11-WA DMA interface with some wire-wrapped glue logic to adapt to the Jupiter's 50-pin interface bus. It is based on the stock DRV11-WA driver, with some additional logic to handle the handshakes between Jupiter and the DRV11. Additionally, I built a graphics library based on the NASA min-Vicar image processing suite, which was a hideous hack job that ran on the PDP-11. That used pre-assigned, numbered files. I generalized it to use normal VMS files of arbitrary size, but otherwise kept most of the original functions. I used the VMS table driven parser, tparse, to parse most of the commands. > > I also knew a fair bit about Versatec printers back then, if anybody ever wants to get one of those hideous machines running. > > If anybody is interested in these drivers, etc. let me know. > > Jon Sue Skonetski VP of Customer Advocacy Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Aug 28 12:22:13 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 12:22:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Ali wrote: >> Ah! That explains my lack of results. I soaked the keys for five or six >> hours. They got clean, but didn't change color very much. Sounds like I >> pulled them out too soon. Several days, you say? > > Has anyone tried a glass/plexi-glass bath w/ UV lights? It might get > expensive if you want UV lights that are dimmable (to control strength) > but UV lights and ballasts are not that expensive. A simple timer and > maybe a reflective surface on the enclosure and you are good to go. Then > real experiments can be done by varying exposure time and concentration > of the solution to see if there is a happy medium. Problem is you need > someone with lots of yellowed parts that they don't mind experimenting > on/ruining in the process. Glass blocks UV light. This is why EPROMS were made with quartz windows even though glass would have been much cheaper. Regular acrylic plastic will block UV as well, but special types are available that allow transmission of UV (such as for sun room roof panels and tanning beds). Keep in mind also that short wave UV-C (such as a germicidal lamp) is dangerous to work around, which is why devices such as EPROM erasers generally have a mechanical interlock to disable the lamp when open. UV-A (blacklight) is much safer, and would probably give about the same results as having something out in the sun (UV-C is blocked by the atmosphere while UV-A isn't). From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Aug 28 12:29:42 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:29:42 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <55E08A3F.1080708@sydex.com> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <2C24DD34-B156-4F03-928A-8B57FC656E61@gmail.com> <8837F026-13AB-4C89-8A44-20DEA36D2FA6@nf6x.net> <55E08A3F.1080708@sydex.com> Message-ID: <89338AFF-C424-4F27-9F0A-E1768132717C@nf6x.net> To be honest, an engine block wouldn't look out of place in my living room. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From Mark at Misty.com Fri Aug 28 12:30:28 2015 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 13:30:28 -0400 Subject: wanted - MXV11-B (M7195-XX) Message-ID: <20150828173028.GA6283@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, Does anyone happen to have a spare MXV11-B (M7195-XX) they would be willing to sell or trade? I'd like to build a small BSD2.11 system from this M8192 from the cheap board guy on e-bay and need something with a bootstrap ROM. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Aug 28 12:33:21 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 19:33:21 +0200 Subject: wanted - MXV11-B (M7195-XX) In-Reply-To: <20150828173028.GA6283@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20150828173028.GA6283@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <55E09B61.3000202@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-28 19:30, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone happen to have a spare MXV11-B (M7195-XX) they would be willing > to sell or trade? > > I'd like to build a small BSD2.11 system from this M8192 from the cheap > board guy on e-bay and need something with a bootstrap ROM. Unless I remember wrong, and is confused, the M8192 is an 11/73 or 11/83 CPU board. It already have boot roms on it. Johnny From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 28 12:32:27 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 17:32:27 +0000 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <89338AFF-C424-4F27-9F0A-E1768132717C@nf6x.net> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <2C24DD34-B156-4F03-928A-8B57FC656E61@gmail.com> <8837F026-13AB-4C89-8A44-20DEA36D2FA6@nf6x.net> <55E08A3F.1080708@sydex.com>,<89338AFF-C424-4F27-9F0A-E1768132717C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > > To be honest, an engine block wouldn't look out of place in my living room. :) I don't have a living room..... I do have a 'large machine room'[1] which the previous owners of the house called a 'living room' [1] Both the room and the machines I am going to set up in there are large. I realised the other day that I do not live in a normal house. Apart from the toilet, every room on the ground floor contains at least one PDP11 (some not set up yet). -tony From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 28 12:35:27 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 13:35:27 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> Message-ID: <55E09BDF.6000408@snarc.net> > Regular acrylic plastic will block UV as well, but special types are > available that allow transmission of UV (such as for sun room roof > panels and tanning beds). Good tip! We'll shop for non-blocking acrylic. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Aug 28 12:41:23 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 12:41:23 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <1EA04706-0A28-41D2-9462-64A12ABE48CE@comcast.net> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <1EA04706-0A28-41D2-9462-64A12ABE48CE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55E09D43.5030301@pico-systems.com> On 08/28/2015 11:52 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Aug 28, 2015, at 11:44 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> ... >> Well, I guess I'll need to build a little convection tape baker, then. Maybe I'll use something like an Arduino to control the temperature. I want to build a toaster oven solder reflow over, too, which might use the same controller. But operating at a much higher temperature, of course. > If you can puzzle out German, you might find this article worth reading. It describes SMD reflow in a toaster oven, and some of the pitfalls. The main one is that the temperature sensor needs to be attached to the board, or to a (blank) copy of that board. If it's attached to something with a significantly different copper to etch ratio, it will be heated differently and your board will either not heat enough, or be overheated -- possibly enough to scorch it. > > I have made thousands of boards in a large GE toaster oven. I got a ramp-and-soak thermocouple controller on eBay. They are usually $600-800, but I got it for a song. It allows you to set temperature ramp rates and hold times. I ramp to 180 C, hold for one minute, than ramp to 230 C (for leaded solder) or 245 C for lead free, hold for one minute and then cool rapidly. The trick is to poke a tiny thermocouple into a plated through hole in one of the boards. Then, the controller is measuring actual temperature. I tried having the thermocouple in the air, and the boards got seriously fried. With good solder paste applied in the right amounts, the process is totally amazing. I make my own solder stencils using essentially PC board etching techniques. I make litho film photomasters with a home-made laser photoplotter, then use those to expose PC board dry film photoresist to 0.003" brass shim stock. Develop the resist and etch in ferric chloride. it is important to shrink the apertures so as not to get too much solder paste on the chip's pads. The finer the lead pitch, the more you have to shrink the apertures. Jon From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Aug 28 12:42:25 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:42:25 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> Message-ID: <008d01d0e1b8$e78e9e60$b6abdb20$@net> > Glass blocks UV light. This is why EPROMS were made with quartz windows > even though glass would have been much cheaper. Regular acrylic plastic > will block UV as well, but special types are available that allow > transmission of UV (such as for sun room roof panels and tanning beds). > My other concern with Plexi-Glass, and this could be completely unfounded, is that would it etch or get damaged by high concentration peroxide? -Ali From Mark at Misty.com Fri Aug 28 12:44:27 2015 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 13:44:27 -0400 Subject: wanted - MXV11-B (M7195-XX) In-Reply-To: <55E09B61.3000202@update.uu.se> References: <20150828173028.GA6283@allie.home.misty.com> <55E09B61.3000202@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150828174427.GA6594@allie.home.misty.com> Hi Johnny, On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 07:33:21PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-28 19:30, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > >Hi, > > > >Does anyone happen to have a spare MXV11-B (M7195-XX) they would be willing > >to sell or trade? > > > >I'd like to build a small BSD2.11 system from this M8192 from the cheap > >board guy on e-bay and need something with a bootstrap ROM. > > Unless I remember wrong, and is confused, the M8192 is an 11/73 or > 11/83 CPU board. It already have boot roms on it. > > Johnny The M8192 is a dual-width 11/73 card, with no ROM or SLUs. Quad-width 11/73 (and 11/83) CPUs have boot roms, but the M8192 does not. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 12:47:13 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:47:13 -0600 Subject: A tale of woe, including carelessness, stupidity and laziness.... In-Reply-To: <5BCA5C90-A837-4780-A0D7-DCCFC819DB46@comcast.net> References: <5BCA5C90-A837-4780-A0D7-DCCFC819DB46@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 6:56 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > That's interesting. I was told that an RP06 requires attention to the correct phase connections or it will attempt to spin in the wrong direction, implying that it uses a 3 phase spindle motor. Or perhaps that was a different RPnn? Or perhaps it was simply an urban legend? The RP06 spindle motor is a single-phase motor wired between two phases of the 120/208 three-phase-wye input, so it nominally gets 208VAC, but the motor is rated to operate over a wide enough range that 220-240V single phase will work fine. From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Aug 28 12:47:47 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 19:47:47 +0200 Subject: wanted - MXV11-B (M7195-XX) In-Reply-To: <20150828174427.GA6594@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20150828173028.GA6283@allie.home.misty.com> <55E09B61.3000202@update.uu.se> <20150828174427.GA6594@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <55E09EC3.30907@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-28 19:44, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > Hi Johnny, > > On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 07:33:21PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-08-28 19:30, Mark G. Thomas wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Does anyone happen to have a spare MXV11-B (M7195-XX) they would be willing >>> to sell or trade? >>> >>> I'd like to build a small BSD2.11 system from this M8192 from the cheap >>> board guy on e-bay and need something with a bootstrap ROM. >> >> Unless I remember wrong, and is confused, the M8192 is an 11/73 or >> 11/83 CPU board. It already have boot roms on it. >> >> Johnny > > The M8192 is a dual-width 11/73 card, with no ROM or SLUs. > > Quad-width 11/73 (and 11/83) CPUs have boot roms, but the M8192 does not. Ah. Damn! I confused it with M8190. Anyway, another possibility is if you have something like the CMD SCSI controllers, as they have the bootstrap on the controller card for you to use... Johnny From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 28 12:52:29 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 13:52:29 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <008d01d0e1b8$e78e9e60$b6abdb20$@net> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> <008d01d0e1b8$e78e9e60$b6abdb20$@net> Message-ID: <55E09FDD.2050501@snarc.net> >> Glass blocks UV light. This is why EPROMS were made with quartz windows even though glass would have been much cheaper. Regular acrylic plastic will block UV as well, but special types are available that allow >> transmission of UV (such as for sun room roof panels and tanning beds). > My other concern with Plexi-Glass, and this could be completely unfounded, is that would it etch or get damaged by high concentration peroxide? Not a concern: we'd just build a walled tub of sorts, put in enough de-yellowing solution to cover the yellowed item in question, and have the plexi sitting well above it. The solution would never be anywhere near the plexi. From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Aug 28 12:55:05 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:55:05 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <55E09D43.5030301@pico-systems.com> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <1EA04706-0A28-41D2-9462-64A12ABE48CE@comcast.net> <55E09D43.5030301@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <8AA45ABB-FA7B-4C1C-8287-8707C8CF30E7@nf6x.net> > On Aug 28, 2015, at 10:41 , Jon Elson wrote: > The trick is to poke a tiny thermocouple into a plated through hole in one of the boards. Then, the controller is measuring actual temperature. I tried having the thermocouple in the air, and the boards got seriously fried. I had planned to tape a thermocouple to the board, but putting it in a plated through hole seems like an even better idea. For my own board designs, I can make sure to include a hole of the right diameter for whatever thermocouple I use, at my best guess of an optimum point on the board to measure temperature. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 28 13:05:12 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1B4FCEAB-BB12-48E7-8FCF-A3FDC4761935@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote: > I went to both Laney and Berkeley City College so you may have a clue. > Thank you If you actually want to follow-up on such tenuous leads, . . . Wil Price would know what happened to the 1620 and 1401. So would Ben Micallef and Jack Olson, but they're dead. I guess that it may have been in the move up onto the hill in 1972? that Merritt switched to DEC. Reliability of the PDP suffered from a bad disk drive, so it was replaced in 1983 with a few RJE terminals and a lot of 5150s. In 1983, the PDP with drive that never worked reliably, was sold to Richmond schools (to pay for 5150s). PG&E didn't fully understand the difference between Delta and Y three-phase. But, in exchange for going along with lie that it "was struck by lightning during installation" (no other lightning strikes within miles for 100 years), PG&E magnanimously (with tax break) bought Richmond schools a new one. Some of the 026 punches and EAM equipment was in the back hallways of Merritt until 1980s. I did not have storage space to save anything, and they tried to fire the guy who pulled the other PDP from the dumpster. I don't know what Laney was using. Berkeley City College didn't exist at that time; it was established later and was known as Vista College until 2006, when it finally got its own building (on Center Street, instead of Milvia). We suggested a delay in the name change from Vista to BCC with both names in use: 1) like a restaurant or retail establishment, a name change simultaneous with a move might save on stationery (which as expected, they didn't replace right away anyway) , but in terms of public, it is more like closing down and a new one opening. THAT was borne out by enrollments. 2) release of Windoze Vista. Our most heavily populated classes were job training for the digital sweatshop, and we could have advertised, "Vista is the best place to learn Vista!" I taught programming in all campuses of Peralta (Merritt, Laney, College Of Alameda, Vista/BCC) from 1981 - 2013. My pension is handled by the state (secure unless Mew Whitman gets elected), but my health benefits are run by Peralta, so kinda risky. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Aug 28 13:05:59 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:05:59 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <55E09FDD.2050501@snarc.net> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> <008d01d0e1b8$e78e9e60$b6abdb20$@net> <55E09FDD.2050501@snarc.net> Message-ID: <009001d0e1bc$32762850$976278f0$@net> > Not a concern: we'd just build a walled tub of sorts, put in enough de- > yellowing solution to cover the yellowed item in question, and have the > plexi sitting well above it. The solution would never be anywhere near > the plexi. Evan, Actually I was thinking the tub would be built out of plexi. That way you could get the same level of light from all around as opposed to just from the top (hence the reflective surfaced for the container). That way you may get more even UV illumination on all the surfaces especially in the nooks and crannies. Just a thought though as it may not improve or make things worse. -Ali From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 28 13:07:42 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <2C24DD34-B156-4F03-928A-8B57FC656E61@gmail.com> <8837F026-13AB-4C89-8A44-20DEA36D2FA6@nf6x.net> <55E08A3F.1080708@sydex.com>,<89338AFF-C424-4F27-9F0A-E1768132717C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, tony duell wrote: > I realised the other day that I do not live in a normal house. Apart > from the toilet, every room on the ground floor contains at least one > PDP11 (some not set up yet). Nice! The WC only has microcomputers? From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Aug 28 13:09:21 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 20:09:21 +0200 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <2C24DD34-B156-4F03-928A-8B57FC656E61@gmail.com> <8837F026-13AB-4C89-8A44-20DEA36D2FA6@nf6x.net> <55E08A3F.1080708@sydex.com> <89338AFF-C424-4F27-9F0A-E1768132717C@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <55E0A3D1.8000302@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-28 20:07, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, tony duell wrote: >> I realised the other day that I do not live in a normal house. Apart >> from the toilet, every room on the ground floor contains at least one >> PDP11 (some not set up yet). > > Nice! > The WC only has microcomputers? Terminals... WCs only requires terminals... :-) Johnny From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Aug 28 13:30:54 2015 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:30:54 -0700 Subject: Terminals in the WC, was Re: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <55E0A3D1.8000302@update.uu.se> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <2C24DD34-B156-4F03-928A-8B57FC656E61@gmail.com> <8837F026-13AB-4C89-8A44-20DEA36D2FA6@nf6x.net> <55E08A3F.1080708@sydex.com> <89338AFF-C424-4F27-9F0A-E1768132717C@nf6x.net> <55E0A3D1.8000302@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55E0A8DE.8040304@crash.com> On 08/28/2015 11:09, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-28 20:07, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, tony duell wrote: >>> I realised the other day that I do not live in a normal house. Apart >>> from the toilet, every room on the ground floor contains at least one >>> PDP11 (some not set up yet). >> >> Nice! >> The WC only has microcomputers? > > Terminals... WCs only requires terminals... :-) Seems like this thread should now tie into the discussion of germocidal UV-C lamps in the de-yelowing thread... From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 28 13:43:47 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Terminals in the WC, was Re: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <55E0A8DE.8040304@crash.com> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <2C24DD34-B156-4F03-928A-8B57FC656E61@gmail.com> <8837F026-13AB-4C89-8A44-20DEA36D2FA6@nf6x.net> <55E08A3F.1080708@sydex.com> <89338AFF-C424-4F27-9F0A-E1768132717C@nf6x.net> <55E0A3D1.8000302@update.uu.se> <55E0A8DE.8040304@crash.com> Message-ID: >>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, tony duell wrote: >>>> I realised the other day that I do not live in a normal house. Apart >>>> from the toilet, every room on the ground floor contains at least one >>>> PDP11 (some not set up yet). >> On 2015-08-28 20:07, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Nice! >>> The WC only has microcomputers? > On 08/28/2015 11:09, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Terminals... WCs only requires terminals... :-) > On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Steven M Jones wrote: > Seems like this thread should now tie into the discussion of germocidal UV-C > lamps in the de-yellowing thread... They did say that they were going to do the peroxide soaking in the tub. And WCs are generally too humid for baking tapes. From kevalm at aol.com Fri Aug 28 13:58:21 2015 From: kevalm at aol.com (Kevin Tikker) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:58:21 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1B4FCEAB-BB12-48E7-8FCF-A3FDC4761935@aol.com> Message-ID: <0C2C43FD-2607-4585-A8F2-884955E0068E@aol.com> I attended Vista at both locations the main building and the basement of the former Ross store. The new building was a mess, half finished, poorly designed and with the video studio poorly built. Thanks for the info on the 1620. Petals is such a vast organization it's entirely possible some 1620 lurks in some dark, dank unfinished space. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 28, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote: >> I went to both Laney and Berkeley City College so you may have a clue. >> Thank you > > If you actually want to follow-up on such tenuous leads, . . . > Wil Price would know what happened to the 1620 and 1401. So would Ben Micallef and Jack Olson, but they're dead. > > I guess that it may have been in the move up onto the hill in 1972? that Merritt switched to DEC. Reliability of the PDP suffered from a bad disk drive, so it was replaced in 1983 with a few RJE terminals and a lot of 5150s. > > In 1983, the PDP with drive that never worked reliably, was sold to Richmond schools (to pay for 5150s). PG&E didn't fully understand the difference between Delta and Y three-phase. But, in exchange for going along with lie that it "was struck by lightning during installation" (no other lightning strikes within miles for 100 years), PG&E magnanimously (with tax break) bought Richmond schools a new one. > > Some of the 026 punches and EAM equipment was in the back hallways of Merritt until 1980s. I did not have storage space to save anything, and they tried to fire the guy who pulled the other PDP from the dumpster. > > I don't know what Laney was using. Berkeley City College didn't exist at that time; it was established later and was known as Vista College until 2006, when it finally got its own building (on Center Street, instead of Milvia). > > We suggested a delay in the name change from Vista to BCC with both names in use: > 1) like a restaurant or retail establishment, a name change simultaneous with a move might save on stationery (which as expected, they didn't replace right away anyway) , but in terms of public, it is more like closing down and a new one opening. THAT was borne out by enrollments. > 2) release of Windoze Vista. Our most heavily populated classes were job training for the digital sweatshop, and we could have advertised, "Vista is the best place to learn Vista!" > > I taught programming in all campuses of Peralta (Merritt, Laney, College Of Alameda, Vista/BCC) from 1981 - 2013. My pension is handled by the state (secure unless Mew Whitman gets elected), but my health benefits are run by Peralta, so kinda risky. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From kevalm at aol.com Fri Aug 28 14:00:37 2015 From: kevalm at aol.com (Kevin Tikker) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 12:00:37 -0700 Subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620) In-Reply-To: <55E050E5.8090705@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E050E5.8090705@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Which government agency? Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 28, 2015, at 5:15 AM, ben wrote: > >> On 8/28/2015 3:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > We all KNOW the government people still have one running > for your tax $$$$. After all the bribes and shady dealings > it gets turned on twice a year. Too old to have the Y2000 bug. > Ben. > > > > > From mspproductions at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 14:03:12 2015 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 15:03:12 -0400 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <55E0A3D1.8000302@update.uu.se> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <2C24DD34-B156-4F03-928A-8B57FC656E61@gmail.com> <8837F026-13AB-4C89-8A44-20DEA36D2FA6@nf6x.net> <55E08A3F.1080708@sydex.com> <89338AFF-C424-4F27-9F0A-E1768132717C@nf6x.net> <55E0A3D1.8000302@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Here is a good article about "tape baking" On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 2:09 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-08-28 20:07, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, tony duell wrote: >> >>> I realised the other day that I do not live in a normal house. Apart >>> from the toilet, every room on the ground floor contains at least one >>> PDP11 (some not set up yet). >>> >> >> Nice! >> The WC only has microcomputers? >> > > Terminals... WCs only requires terminals... :-) > > Johnny > > -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign From mspproductions at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 14:04:12 2015 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 15:04:12 -0400 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <2C24DD34-B156-4F03-928A-8B57FC656E61@gmail.com> <8837F026-13AB-4C89-8A44-20DEA36D2FA6@nf6x.net> <55E08A3F.1080708@sydex.com> <89338AFF-C424-4F27-9F0A-E1768132717C@nf6x.net> <55E0A3D1.8000302@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Well how about pasting in the link... http://www.wendycarlos.com/bake%20a%20tape/baketape.html On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Matt Patoray wrote: > Here is a good article about "tape baking" > > On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 2:09 PM, Johnny Billquist > wrote: > >> On 2015-08-28 20:07, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, tony duell wrote: >>> >>>> I realised the other day that I do not live in a normal house. Apart >>>> from the toilet, every room on the ground floor contains at least one >>>> PDP11 (some not set up yet). >>>> >>> >>> Nice! >>> The WC only has microcomputers? >>> >> >> Terminals... WCs only requires terminals... :-) >> >> Johnny >> >> > > > -- > Matt Patoray > Owner, MSP Productions > KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign > -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions (330)542-3698 mspproductions at gmail.com KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 28 14:34:16 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 12:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <0C2C43FD-2607-4585-A8F2-884955E0068E@aol.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1B4FCEAB-BB12-48E7-8FCF-A3FDC4761935@aol.com> <0C2C43FD-2607-4585-A8F2-884955E0068E@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote: > I attended Vista at both locations the main building and the basement of > the former Ross store. The new building was a mess, half finished, > poorly designed and with the video studio poorly built. It is now a mess, half finished (unwired handicap door buttons, etc.), and poorly designed. The signs for ALS, and amplified and TTY phones were put up, but there is not a single public telephone in the building. One of the entrances to the library was mis-prepped as an exit and can not be locked, and "it is impossible to get the plans changed to allow fixing it". > Thanks for the info on the 1620. Petals is such a vast organization it's > entirely possible some 1620 lurks in some dark, dank unfinished space. Not within Peralta. Corporate culture of destruction and erasing of the past. We retrieved some stuff from the dark, dank tunnels at Merritt (and they tried to fire one guy for dumpster diving) Laney is too obsessed with throwing things away and changing, just for the sake of changing. Guarded dumpsters, cleared often. Couldn't save some "broken" (needed toner cartridge) almost current LaserJets. Did save (for the CIS department) a projector that needed its signal cord repaired - almost got fired for soldering a DE15, in a well-ventilated non-flammable workroom; if I hadn't been there that day, it would have been scrapped. College Of Alameda was built without adequate dark storage. Last of the 5170s is long gone. Nothing bigger nor more interesting than generic PCs (primarily HPaq) were ever moved into the BCC spaces. No word on the DisplayWriters that used to be in the Milvia building. The other space was temporary lease, now gone; long before it was a Ross and later Walgreen's, it was a JCPenney's. District Office has occasionally had a few interesting things, but not any more. Used to be a 4381? there. There ARE some interesting things in dark, dank storage spaces in UC. CCSF used to have some interesting stuff, such as Honeywell "mainframe". But, has recently had VERY thorough clearing out due to the Barbara Beno (accreditation Commission) pressure. Heard that some folk at DeAnza/Foothill squirreled away some goodies. Don't know the current state of stuff at Contra Costa Colleges nor SF State. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 14:36:09 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 14:36:09 -0500 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Ah! That explains my lack of results. I soaked the keys for five or six > hours. They got clean, but didn't change color very much. Sounds like I > pulled them out too soon. Several days, you say? > > The keys float (as noted in T's link), so I just turned them upside-down > in the peroxide. > Yes, in my case I did it in a mostly dark room with a small UV light (that I use for erasing EEPROMS), so it didn't get a full sun treatment, but it did take the better part of a week. And, as you say, I had problems with keys constantly wanting to float away. I figure next time I try it I may get some silly putty to put in the underside to weigh them down or something. From useddec at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 15:46:29 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 15:46:29 -0500 Subject: wanted - MXV11-B (M7195-XX) In-Reply-To: <20150828173028.GA6283@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20150828173028.GA6283@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: Hi Mark, I think I have 3 left, one with ROMs, one without. Feel free to contact me off list. Thanks,, Paul On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 12:30 PM, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone happen to have a spare MXV11-B (M7195-XX) they would be willing > to sell or trade? > > I'd like to build a small BSD2.11 system from this M8192 from the cheap > board guy on e-bay and need something with a bootstrap ROM. > > Mark > > -- > Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Aug 28 15:42:20 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 21:42:20 +0100 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> Message-ID: <55E0C7AC.3050200@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/08/2015 20:36, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > Yes, in my case I did it in a mostly dark room with a small UV light (that > I use for erasing EEPROMS), so it didn't get a full sun treatment, but it > did take the better part of a week. And, as you say, I had problems with > keys constantly wanting to float away. I figure next time I try it I may > get some silly putty to put in the underside to weigh them down or > something. Well, here's an idea for some over-engineering: how about one of the tumblers that rock collectors use for polishing small stones, or handloader use for cleaning brass. Make a new cylinder from thin perspex (it doesn't completely block UVA or UVB) or a large-diameter glass tube and mount a small UV tube above it. That should ensure that not only does every surface get covered, but also exposed to the UV. Or put all the keytops in a small bucket, and put a small aquarium pump (something like a Micro-Jet MC320) in the bottom. The flow should keep everything circulating and tumbling. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 28 16:17:57 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 16:17:57 -0500 Subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620) In-Reply-To: References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E050E5.8090705@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <55E0D005.4050803@charter.net> On 8/28/2015 2:00 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > Which government agency? > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 28, 2015, at 5:15 AM, ben wrote: >> >>> On 8/28/2015 3:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: >> We all KNOW the government people still have one running >> for your tax $$$$. After all the bribes and shady dealings >> it gets turned on twice a year. Too old to have the Y2000 bug. >> Ben. >> >> >> I expect that Ben's posting was a joke directed at the IRS. From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Aug 28 16:19:42 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 14:19:42 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <2C24DD34-B156-4F03-928A-8B57FC656E61@gmail.com> <8837F026-13AB-4C89-8A44-20DEA36D2FA6@nf6x.net> <55E08A3F.1080708@sydex.com> <89338AFF-C424-4F27-9F0A-E1768132717C@nf6x.net> <55E0A3D1.8000302@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <3F6CB284-0CE9-4BFB-880F-2855BFC81ED5@nf6x.net> > On Aug 28, 2015, at 12:04 , Matt Patoray wrote: > > Well how about pasting in the link... > > http://www.wendycarlos.com/bake%20a%20tape/baketape.html Thank you very much! I may try one of those dehydrators just as a path of minimum effort to having a serviceable tape baker. If the hub is small enough for 8" floppies to fit around it, then that will be even better. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Aug 28 17:52:01 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 17:52:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <009001d0e1bc$32762850$976278f0$@net> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> <008d01d0e1b8$e78e9e60$b6abdb20$@net> <55E09FDD.2050501@snarc.net> <009001d0e1bc$32762850$976278f0$@net> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Ali wrote: > On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Not a concern: we'd just build a walled tub of sorts, put in enough de- >> yellowing solution to cover the yellowed item in question, and have the >> plexi sitting well above it. The solution would never be anywhere near >> the plexi. > > Actually I was thinking the tub would be built out of plexi. That way > you could get the same level of light from all around as opposed to just > from the top (hence the reflective surfaced for the container). That way > you may get more even UV illumination on all the surfaces especially in > the nooks and crannies. Just a thought though as it may not improve or > make things worse. Why get so elaborate? Last year while I was looking at building an indoor UV setup, I was considering a simple wooden frame to support four 24" T8 blacklight lamps about a foot or so above my bench. I haven't yet gone much further than looking at various lamps/fixtures/ballasts since I'm still not sure de-yellowing many of my computers would be worth the effort. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 28 17:57:18 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 16:57:18 -0600 Subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620) In-Reply-To: <55E0D005.4050803@charter.net> References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E050E5.8090705@jetnet.ab.ca> <55E0D005.4050803@charter.net> Message-ID: <55E0E74E.8020400@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/28/2015 3:17 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I expect that Ben's posting was a joke directed at the IRS. Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next. The 1980's was the last use I suspect of the 1965's machines. So if you want a vintage computer, the last finds are about 15 years later from the introduction. Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 28 18:12:36 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 16:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620) In-Reply-To: <55E0E74E.8020400@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E050E5.8090705@jetnet.ab.ca> <55E0D005.4050803@charter.net> <55E0E74E.8020400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, ben wrote: > Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next. There are lots of 1620s there. Many have seriously upgraded RAM and storage, to run Linux, Windoze 12, and Apple System 11. They have interplanetary WiFi. From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 18:45:08 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 19:45:08 -0400 Subject: Applikon Workstation? In-Reply-To: References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> <55DDC07F.7010309@compsys.to> Message-ID: OK, I'm wondering if we're even talking about the same thing here. This stuff's all labeled Applicon, not Applikon. Nonetheless, here's what I found. I think there's more like these buried around here somewhere. https://goo.gl/photos/p2RTXn62xBmv1Ltf9 On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Jerome H. Fine > wrote: > >> >Jacob Ritorto wrote: >> >> Ah, I knew that sounded familiar. I have a pretty sizable stack of what >>> appear to be original nine-track tapes with their pdp11 software on them >>> in >>> my collection. Any interest? I could try to get my tu-10 going again to >>> image them, but might need some help >>> >>> --jake >>> >>> Most PDP-11 software distributions on tape were labelled >> with the software and the version. Any idea of what is >> on the various tapes? > > > If I don't run out of time today, I'll check at the warehouse this > afternoon and report back... > From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Aug 28 20:15:28 2015 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 21:15:28 -0400 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> Message-ID: <05CA7FB345B342E097BCF43D94186C58@TeoPC> It last long enough to sell on ebay I assume. -----Original Message----- From: Peter Cetinski Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2015 2:55 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: General at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: De-yellowing results I?ve only seen anecdotes that the yellowing returns.= --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Aug 28 20:31:16 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 20:31:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/28/2015 07:42 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> With all the different solder alloys I work with regularly, I have to >> ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it the alloy >> itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and then failed to >> clean away all the residue? If they used a rosin-based flux, was it due >> to the specific activator used in the flux? > > That's actually a little puzzling. 1401 core frames have survived well > (got one in my desk drawer). You'd expect that the same process would > be used for equipment that's pretty close to contemporary. I think I've answered my own question today while looking at a datasheet for another type of solder. My guess is that the solder they used did not contain any copper, and the tin in the solder IBM used dissolved small amounts of the already very tiny copper wires, creating a weak point where the wires were soldered to the terminals. Lyle, was there any discussion of possibly laser welding replacement stubs of wire before the breaks that could then be re-soldered to the terminals? That would seem to be a viable repair option, although it would require special equipment. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 20:49:54 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 19:49:54 -0600 Subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620) In-Reply-To: <55E0E74E.8020400@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E050E5.8090705@jetnet.ab.ca> <55E0D005.4050803@charter.net> <55E0E74E.8020400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 4:57 PM, ben wrote: > Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next. Don't bother. There's nothing interesting in Area 51 any more; due to all the publicity Area 51 has gotten, they've long since moved all the good stuff to Area 52, which still has a low profile. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Aug 28 21:02:54 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:02:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620) In-Reply-To: <55E0E74E.8020400@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E050E5.8090705@jetnet.ab.ca> <55E0D005.4050803@charter.net> <55E0E74E.8020400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, ben wrote: > On 8/28/2015 3:17 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> I expect that Ben's posting was a joke directed at the IRS. > > Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next. > The 1980's was the last use I suspect of the 1965's machines. The military used 1950's machines into the '80s. E.g. the IBM-built AN/FSQ-7 computers for SAGE became operational starting in 1957, and some stayed on the job until 1983. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Aug 28 21:43:26 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 21:43:26 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <55E09D43.5030301@pico-systems.com> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <1EA04706-0A28-41D2-9462-64A12ABE48CE@comcast.net> <55E09D43.5030301@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55E11C4E.7050304@pico-systems.com> On 08/28/2015 12:41 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 08/28/2015 11:52 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Aug 28, 2015, at 11:44 AM, Mark J. Blair >>> wrote: >>> ... >>> Well, I guess I'll need to build a little convection >>> tape baker, then. Maybe I'll use something like an >>> Arduino to control the temperature. I want to build a >>> toaster oven solder reflow over, too, which might use >>> the same controller. But operating at a much higher >>> temperature, of course. >> If you can puzzle out German, you might find this article >> worth reading. It describes SMD reflow in a toaster >> oven, and some of the pitfalls. The main one is that the >> temperature sensor needs to be attached to the board, or >> to a (blank) copy of that board. If it's attached to >> something with a significantly different copper to etch >> ratio, it will be heated differently and your board will >> either not heat enough, or be overheated -- possibly >> enough to scorch it. >> >> > I have made thousands of boards in a large GE toaster > oven. OOps, obviously I completely missed what the original question was, here. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Aug 28 21:46:00 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 21:46:00 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <8AA45ABB-FA7B-4C1C-8287-8707C8CF30E7@nf6x.net> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <1EA04706-0A28-41D2-9462-64A12ABE48CE@comcast.net> <55E09D43.5030301@pico-systems.com> <8AA45ABB-FA7B-4C1C-8287-8707C8CF30E7@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <55E11CE8.7010906@pico-systems.com> On 08/28/2015 12:55 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> On Aug 28, 2015, at 10:41 , Jon Elson wrote: >> The trick is to poke a tiny thermocouple into a plated through hole in one of the boards. Then, the controller is measuring actual temperature. I tried having the thermocouple in the air, and the boards got seriously fried. > I had planned to tape a thermocouple to the board, but putting it in a plated through hole seems like an even better idea. For my own board designs, I can make sure to include a hole of the right diameter for whatever thermocouple I use, at my best guess of an optimum point on the board to measure temperature. > > I was lucky to get 1000 feet of tiny thermocouple wire in an odd type (Type E) . But, my temp controller had that type available in its menu. Then, the only problem is the temp variation across the size of the oven, which can be considerable. Jon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 28 22:44:30 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 21:44:30 -0600 Subject: Cold War Tech - Area 52 In-Reply-To: References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E050E5.8090705@jetnet.ab.ca> <55E0D005.4050803@charter.net> <55E0E74E.8020400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <55E12A9E.5090800@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/28/2015 8:02 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, ben wrote: > >> On 8/28/2015 3:17 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> >>> I expect that Ben's posting was a joke directed at the IRS. >> >> Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next. >> The 1980's was the last use I suspect of the 1965's machines. > > The military used 1950's machines into the '80s. E.g. the IBM-built > AN/FSQ-7 computers for SAGE became operational starting in 1957, and > some stayed on the job until 1983. Good old Cold War Computing. A real Area 51 link. - US UFO's http://astronautix.com/craft/pyeacket.htm I was looking for Deepcold: Secrets of the Cold War in Space, 1959-1969 but alas the web site has vanished from the face of the Earth. Ben. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Aug 28 23:36:44 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 21:36:44 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 20:31:16 -0500 (CDT) Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 08/28/2015 07:42 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > > > >> With all the different solder alloys I work with regularly, I have > >> to ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it > >> the alloy itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and > >> then failed to clean away all the residue? If they used a > >> rosin-based flux, was it due to the specific activator used in the > >> flux? > > > > That's actually a little puzzling. 1401 core frames have survived > > well (got one in my desk drawer). You'd expect that the same > > process would be used for equipment that's pretty close to > > contemporary. > > I think I've answered my own question today while looking at a > datasheet for another type of solder. My guess is that the solder > they used did not contain any copper, and the tin in the solder IBM > used dissolved small amounts of the already very tiny copper wires, > creating a weak point where the wires were soldered to the terminals. > > Lyle, was there any discussion of possibly laser welding replacement > stubs of wire before the breaks that could then be re-soldered to the > terminals? That would seem to be a viable repair option, although it > would require special equipment. I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate "modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally "falling apart" and was not repairable. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cube1 at charter.net Fri Aug 28 11:25:30 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:25:30 -0500 Subject: DEC 9 Track Tapes (was Re: Applikon Workstation?) In-Reply-To: References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> <55DE1163.5000309@charter.net> <55DE2CDB.9020101@charter.net> Message-ID: <55E08B7A.2030009@charter.net> On 8/28/2015 2:59 AM, Operon Lac wrote: > What takes, today, present time, to read 1/2-inch reel-to-reel tape? > Years ago, I've found literally HUNDREDS of half inch reel-to-reel tape, > stacked outside a telco switching building. I managed to scavenge one > hundred and ninety of them. Ended up throwing (because of lack of storing > space... and no prospect to be able to do anything with it...) 176. I kept > 14 reels. Anyway... are there still people throwing/giving hardware able to > read that? > Hugs. > ?.// > Well, obviously, it takes a 9 Track tape drive. I doubt you are likely to find a give-away at this point. (I got one for nearly that, via local university surplus, with a Pertec interface.) I purchased a SCSI tape drive off of eBay for around $200. Currently I am using the SCSI interface from the latter on the former drive. They do show up on eBay from time to time (Search 9 Track Tape drive), typically anywhere from a couple of hundred dollars on up. If you want to hook one up to a PC, I suggest a SCSI interface as being easier to manage - however the SCSI interface does seem to make error detection a bit trickier. Many/most 9 Track tapes (those from the early to mid-eighties until 1995 or so - what matters is the date of manufacture, not when they were written) have to be "baked" before reading, owing to "sticky shed syndrome". My experience with tapes earlier than that is that I can read them without baking them first. JRJ From archer174 at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 15:46:49 2015 From: archer174 at gmail.com (Brian Archer) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 13:46:49 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> Message-ID: I use 2 of these in a large plastic tub: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HD6Y4VU?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage I cut holes in the lid of the tub for them and used tin foil to line the insides. Seems to work very well for me. I coat the items in bblonde mixed with a little extra peroxide to make it thinner. Then I have a bottle of peroxide with a sprayer nozzle that I use to keep everything damp every hour or so. I usually get good results in < 4 hours. -- Brian Archer On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 12:36 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > Ah! That explains my lack of results. I soaked the keys for five or six > > hours. They got clean, but didn't change color very much. Sounds like I > > pulled them out too soon. Several days, you say? > > > > The keys float (as noted in T's link), so I just turned them upside-down > > in the peroxide. > > > > Yes, in my case I did it in a mostly dark room with a small UV light (that > I use for erasing EEPROMS), so it didn't get a full sun treatment, but it > did take the better part of a week. And, as you say, I had problems with > keys constantly wanting to float away. I figure next time I try it I may > get some silly putty to put in the underside to weigh them down or > something. > From geremin at iprimus.com.au Fri Aug 28 17:23:50 2015 From: geremin at iprimus.com.au (John GEREMIN - Engineer) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 08:23:50 +1000 Subject: IBM 1620 / IBM 1401. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20150829081450.02d7e008@pop.iprimus.com.au> Here in Australia, the Australian Computer Museum Society has an IBM 1401 - just the big CPU unit. We know of an IBM 1620 CPU unit in Computer Sciences at the University of NSW. I worked on a 1620 in the 1960s - and thought that it was 'magic'. Sadly, we don't have enough sponsors to put either on public display. Regards, John GEREMIN, ASTC, Honorary Curator, www.acms.org.au From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 29 00:32:18 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 00:32:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 20:31:16 -0500 (CDT) Tothwolf wrote: > >> I think I've answered my own question today while looking at a >> datasheet for another type of solder. My guess is that the solder they >> used did not contain any copper, and the tin in the solder IBM used >> dissolved small amounts of the already very tiny copper wires, creating >> a weak point where the wires were soldered to the terminals. >> >> Lyle, was there any discussion of possibly laser welding replacement >> stubs of wire before the breaks that could then be re-soldered to the >> terminals? That would seem to be a viable repair option, although it >> would require special equipment. > > I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate > "modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked > similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally > "falling apart" and was not repairable. So the core mats were more or less dangling? Still, I would think they would be repairable, but it would be a major undertaking since there would probably be 1000s of tiny stubs of wire to weld in (every single connection, basically). All of those enamel wire terminations would then also need to be soldered to the terminals with either a low-tin or copper containing alloy of solder too. I also can't help but wonder what other systems which use core memory might suffer from this type of failure as they continue to age. Any chance someone on the team took some photos of the core memory? I didn't see any on CHM's IBM 1620 webpage. http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/ For those interested, here is a paper Google turned up which explains the problem: Lead Alloys for High Temperature Soldering of Magnet Wire https://app.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1975_10_s370.pdf From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Aug 29 01:01:25 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 23:01:25 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <55E11CE8.7010906@pico-systems.com> References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <1EA04706-0A28-41D2-9462-64A12ABE48CE@comcast.net> <55E09D43.5030301@pico-systems.com> <8AA45ABB-FA7B-4C1C-8287-8707C8CF30E7@nf6x.net> <55E11CE8.7010906@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 28, 2015, at 19:46, Jon Elson wrote: > > Then, the only problem is the temp variation across the size of the oven, which can be considerable. I'm thinking that air circulation should be helpful to reduce hot spots, whether I'm baking boards or media. I expect that I'll get a much better understanding of how my layout affects things like tombstoning once I reflow my own boards. I've designed many a board, but other than ones I've hand soldered myself with irons, they've all been assembled out of sight and out of mind from me. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Aug 29 01:17:05 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 08:17:05 +0200 Subject: Applikon Workstation? In-Reply-To: References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> <55DDC07F.7010309@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20150829061705.GA39600@beast.freibergnet.de> Jacob Ritorto wrote: > OK, I'm wondering if we're even talking about the same thing here. This > stuff's all labeled Applicon, not Applikon. Nonetheless, here's what I > found. I think there's more like these buried around here somewhere. > https://goo.gl/photos/p2RTXn62xBmv1Ltf9 > > Well.. Applicon is the right spelling. I've found my original mail to the NetBSD list from 1995 in the archives where I've listet the contents of the machine: >Hi, > >I have got a "Applicon Worstation". This Workstation contains : > >1 MicroVAXII CPU KA630-AA >1 MicroVAX Memory 8MB >1 tmscp controller + tk50 >1 DELQA Ethernet controller >1 MDB M58823A >1 MDB DWQ >1 M3106 4 Line Async MUX > >1 Host Sil-2 PCA P/N 31970-001 INTFC SERIAL HOST >1 NEAT PCA P/N 33090-001 ... looks like a serial connected graphics dev. > >1 Disk controller P/N 12272-001 Emulex SCSI labeled UC0410201-03B > (solder side of pcb labelled QEC-3V0) > >currently 1 Harddisk Micropolis 1375 (170Mb) > >This machine runs with VMS 5.1 without problems. >I have tried to install NetBSD 1.0 with the tk50 (files tk50-file?-10A). >I can run Nboot, label the Disk, and have successfully installed the >Miniroot >in the swap partition. I've spelled it Applicon to this time and to this teme the machine was next to me.. ..so it seems to be the right stuff, but besides the fact that I can read 9 Track tapes with an TSZ07 I don't even think that the machine still exists... In any case it is out of reach. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From db at db.net Sat Aug 29 07:52:12 2015 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 08:52:12 -0400 Subject: Cold War Tech - Area 52 In-Reply-To: <55E12A9E.5090800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E050E5.8090705@jetnet.ab.ca> <55E0D005.4050803@charter.net> <55E0E74E.8020400@jetnet.ab.ca> <55E12A9E.5090800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20150829125212.GA54723@night.db.net> > > A real Area 51 link. - US UFO's > http://astronautix.com/craft/pyeacket.htm > I was looking for > Deepcold: Secrets of the Cold War in Space, 1959-1969 > but alas the web site has vanished from the face of the Earth. > Ben. > Try https://web.archive.org/web/20120616210332/http://www.deepcold.com/index.html -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From mspproductions at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 08:55:39 2015 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 09:55:39 -0400 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <1EA04706-0A28-41D2-9462-64A12ABE48CE@comcast.net> <55E09D43.5030301@pico-systems.com> <8AA45ABB-FA7B-4C1C-8287-8707C8CF30E7@nf6x.net> <55E11CE8.7010906@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On the American Harvest the center hole is 2.25" across I think an 8" floppy will fit in that but I am not sure, I don't have any on hand to test with On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 2:01 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > On Aug 28, 2015, at 19:46, Jon Elson wrote: > > > > Then, the only problem is the temp variation across the size of the > oven, which can be considerable. > > I'm thinking that air circulation should be helpful to reduce hot spots, > whether I'm baking boards or media. I expect that I'll get a much better > understanding of how my layout affects things like tombstoning once I > reflow my own boards. I've designed many a board, but other than ones I've > hand soldered myself with irons, they've all been assembled out of sight > and out of mind from me. > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions KD8AMG From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 29 09:31:08 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 08:31:08 -0600 Subject: Cold War Tech - Area 52 In-Reply-To: <20150829125212.GA54723@night.db.net> References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E050E5.8090705@jetnet.ab.ca> <55E0D005.4050803@charter.net> <55E0E74E.8020400@jetnet.ab.ca> <55E12A9E.5090800@jetnet.ab.ca> <20150829125212.GA54723@night.db.net> Message-ID: <55E1C22C.6040105@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/29/2015 6:52 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: >> >> A real Area 51 link. - US UFO's >> http://astronautix.com/craft/pyeacket.htm >> I was looking for >> Deepcold: Secrets of the Cold War in Space, 1959-1969 >> but alas the web site has vanished from the face of the Earth. >> Ben. >> > > Try > https://web.archive.org/web/20120616210332/http://www.deepcold.com/index.html > I don't have time to look at the archive, but did the animated movies get archived. The important stuff as very little non text is archived from web pages. Porn of 1995 is just as important historical thing as any when regarding history of then net. Ben. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 29 09:50:21 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 07:50:21 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <1EA04706-0A28-41D2-9462-64A12ABE48CE@comcast.net> <55E09D43.5030301@pico-systems.com> <8AA45ABB-FA7B-4C1C-8287-8707C8CF30E7@nf6x.net> <55E11CE8.7010906@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55E1C6AD.6000100@bitsavers.org> On 8/28/15 11:01 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > I'm thinking that air circulation should be helpful to reduce hot spots Yes, and this has been discussed on this list for at least ten years. Someone I know who has processed thousands of 1/2" tapes built a very large convection oven and he told me one of the critical things was to get a lot of airflow into the reel. From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Aug 29 09:54:56 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 07:54:56 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <1EA04706-0A28-41D2-9462-64A12ABE48CE@comcast.net> <55E09D43.5030301@pico-systems.com> <8AA45ABB-FA7B-4C1C-8287-8707C8CF30E7@nf6x.net> <55E11CE8.7010906@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 29, 2015, at 06:55, Matt Patoray wrote: > > On the American Harvest the center hole is 2.25" across I think an 8" > floppy will fit in that but I am not sure, I don't have any on hand to test > with I don't think 8" floppies will fit, then. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From mspproductions at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 10:00:14 2015 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 11:00:14 -0400 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <1EA04706-0A28-41D2-9462-64A12ABE48CE@comcast.net> <55E09D43.5030301@pico-systems.com> <8AA45ABB-FA7B-4C1C-8287-8707C8CF30E7@nf6x.net> <55E11CE8.7010906@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: But the food dehydrator comes with multiple shelves, and you can cut the center support out of one of them. That is how I have modified mine to accept 1" C format Videotape reels. I am going to b baking some Sony 1/2" EIAJ Videotape today and when I start getting things set up I will check if I have an 8" floppy I can check with on the I modified shelves. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 29, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >> On Aug 29, 2015, at 06:55, Matt Patoray wrote: >> >> On the American Harvest the center hole is 2.25" across I think an 8" >> floppy will fit in that but I am not sure, I don't have any on hand to test >> with > > I don't think 8" floppies will fit, then. > > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > From shaunhalstead at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 10:03:23 2015 From: shaunhalstead at gmail.com (Shaun Halstead) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 10:03:23 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II's available Message-ID: Note: I've moved my ccmp stuff to my personal email account. I was formerly with Microfilm Services, Inc, which is now shuttered. I still have a pair of Xerox 820-II computers available, in Wichita, Ks. Two computers, with keyboards, and a single dual 8" floppy unit. I also have a few books and manuals for them, in original Xerox binders. Price: Make offer. PLEASE. After Labor Day weekend, they will probably be destroyed by the building owner. Shipping is in 4 large boxes from Wichita, Ks, and will not exactly be cheap. You can figure $100 minimum for shipping. Alternatively, I'm heading north along I-35 from Wichita, Ks to north Iowa Thursday 9/3 and Friday 9/4, if you wish to arrange a meeting along that route. (It must be at a location directly long I-35, such as a truck stop or other major, easily accessible location.) --Shaun From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Aug 29 10:13:18 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 10:13:18 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <1EA04706-0A28-41D2-9462-64A12ABE48CE@comcast.net> <55E09D43.5030301@pico-systems.com> <8AA45ABB-FA7B-4C1C-8287-8707C8CF30E7@nf6x.net> <55E11CE8.7010906@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55E1CC0E.1070809@pico-systems.com> On 08/29/2015 01:01 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> On Aug 28, 2015, at 19:46, Jon Elson wrote: >> >> Then, the only problem is the temp variation across the size of the oven, which can be considerable. > I'm thinking that air circulation should be helpful to reduce hot spots, whether I'm baking boards or media. I expect that I'll get a much better understanding of how my layout affects things like tombstoning once I reflow my own boards. I've designed many a board, but other than ones I've hand soldered myself with irons, they've all been assembled out of sight and out of mind from me. > Tombstoning is actually quite rare when using good solder paste. I've done thousands of boards, had a fair share of head-in-pillow and plain solder failure, but maybe just 6 actual tombstones. Probably the slow temperature ramp with the toaster oven helps avoid this. Jon From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Aug 29 10:45:50 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 08:45:50 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <1EA04706-0A28-41D2-9462-64A12ABE48CE@comcast.net> <55E09D43.5030301@pico-systems.com> <8AA45ABB-FA7B-4C1C-8287-8707C8CF30E7@nf6x.net> <55E11CE8.7010906@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 29, 2015, at 08:00, Matt Patoray wrote: > > But the food dehydrator comes with multiple shelves, and you can cut the center support out of one of them. That is how I have modified mine to accept 1" C format Videotape reels. Oh, maybe I misunderstood, then. I thought the center support was some sort of fixed air duct, and that anything too large to fit between the center and edge would need a center hole large enough to fit over the center support. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 10:53:12 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 10:53:12 -0500 Subject: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620) In-Reply-To: References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E050E5.8090705@jetnet.ab.ca> <55E0D005.4050803@charter.net> <55E0E74E.8020400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <55E1D568.8090501@gmail.com> On 08/28/2015 08:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 4:57 PM, ben wrote: >> Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next. > > Don't bother. There's nothing interesting in Area 51 any more; due to > all the publicity Area 51 has gotten, they've long since moved all the > good stuff to Area 52, which still has a low profile. At least, that's just what they want us to think. The *really* good stuff is between the two, in Area 51.5 From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 29 10:57:34 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 08:57:34 -0700 Subject: DEC 9 Track Tapes (was Re: Applikon Workstation?) In-Reply-To: <55E08B7A.2030009@charter.net> References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> <55DE1163.5000309@charter.net> <55DE2CDB.9020101@charter.net> <55E08B7A.2030009@charter.net> Message-ID: <55E1D66E.5090908@bitsavers.org> On 8/28/15 9:25 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Many/most 9 Track tapes (those from the early to mid-eighties until 1995 > or so - what matters is the date of manufacture, not when they were > written) have to be "baked" before reading, owing to "sticky shed > syndrome". My experience with tapes earlier than that is that I can > read them without baking them first. > Mid-80's are the worst, especially Memorex, and BASF, which everyone used because they were cheap. Whatever HP bought for their distribution tapes (probably Graham Magnetics) is very good. IBM tape is good too. DEC used crap tape for their distributions. Sadly, AT&T and Mt XINU ALSO used especially bad tape in the late 80's, so many of the Unix distributions I've been dealing with from them lately are so sticky even after baking that they are impossible to deal with. If you are going to be processing a lot of tapes, get a portable "tape scraper" (tape cleaner) and cover the blade. Retension the tapes with it at low speed after baking. The shed on the cloth covering the blade will tell you how bad the shed is. You can see a Graham Magentics portable cleaner in Paul's setup on the right. http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/proj.html I've processed over a thousand tapes in the past ten years, and their condition is not improving with time. Chuck has mentioned 3M Black Watch being bad, and I've started to see that now too, which wasn't the case in the past. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 29 11:00:20 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 09:00:20 -0700 Subject: DEC 9 Track Tapes (was Re: Applikon Workstation?) In-Reply-To: <55E1D66E.5090908@bitsavers.org> References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> <55DE1163.5000309@charter.net> <55DE2CDB.9020101@charter.net> <55E08B7A.2030009@charter.net> <55E1D66E.5090908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55E1D714.2040601@bitsavers.org> On 8/29/15 8:57 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I've processed over a thousand tapes in the past ten years, and their condition > is not improving with time. Chuck has mentioned 3M Black Watch being bad, and I've > started to see that now too, which wasn't the case in the past. > There was a question about airflow in my oven this morning, so I shot a picture of the inside, which will be on the bottom of the bitsavers main page in the afternoon. I also put up the two old pictures of my old processing labs. Hopefully, my new lab space in Fremont will be ready to move into soon. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 11:29:32 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 11:29:32 -0500 Subject: Future Computers FX31 Message-ID: <55E1DDEC.6090909@gmail.com> Anyone know anything about this system? Someone on a vintage computer group on Facebook has one (missing its keyboard[1]), and having seen some photos, although it seems to be mostly a generic PC-compatible with 8-bit ISA, it's notable for having a "video in" connector on the back, as well as LAN in/out ports (proprietary? presumably some kind of ring network though) Surprisingly, Google's coughing up nothing of any use. I'm guessing someone tried making a PC-compatible with a few built-in extras as a selling point (not that uncommon back then), and of course it didn't work out. [1] Although the keyboard socket is something oddball, I see four wires leading back to the motherboard and an 8042 near to where the keyboard connects, so there's a possibility that it can be wired to a standard AT (or possibly XT) keyboard - although of course maybe the scan codes or even the protocol are completely different, and the owner has themselves a nice boat anchor... cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 29 12:46:58 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 10:46:58 -0700 Subject: DEC 9 Track Tapes (was Re: Applikon Workstation?) In-Reply-To: <55E1D66E.5090908@bitsavers.org> References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> <55DE1163.5000309@charter.net> <55DE2CDB.9020101@charter.net> <55E08B7A.2030009@charter.net> <55E1D66E.5090908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55E1F012.5060504@sydex.com> On 08/29/2015 08:57 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Mid-80's are the worst, especially Memorex, and BASF, which everyone > used because they were cheap. Whatever HP bought for their > distribution tapes (probably Graham Magnetics) is very good. IBM tape > is good too. DEC used crap tape for their distributions. I'll disagree about the worst. 70s Scotch 810x tapes from the 70s suffer from "sticky bleed", where the binder has bled through the oxide layer. The result is that the tape sticks to anything--heads, tape, capstans, guide rollers, etc. A tape cleaning machine doesn't do anything for that. Scotch 800 series audio tape suffers the same issue and is well-known to the tapeheads crowd. My solution was to take a thick felt strip, anoint it with D5 (cyclomethicone) lubricant and attach it to a large round guide (made from a 2" PVC pipe cap) on my tape cleaning machine. Make a pass (you may need to add D5 about midway through), read immediately. D5 evaporates fairly quickly (< 1 hour) so re-treatment may be necessary. Fortunately the stuff is utterly inert and doesn't permanently affect the tape. Needless to mention, you should clean your equipment after using this stuff. --Chuck From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Aug 29 12:51:03 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:51:03 -0400 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info Message-ID: <189add.ba55ec4.43134b07@aol.com> I thought the center thing was a duct also Ed# In a message dated 8/29/2015 8:45:57 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, nf6x at nf6x.net writes: > On Aug 29, 2015, at 08:00, Matt Patoray wrote: > > But the food dehydrator comes with multiple shelves, and you can cut the center support out of one of them. That is how I have modified mine to accept 1" C format Videotape reels. Oh, maybe I misunderstood, then. I thought the center support was some sort of fixed air duct, and that anything too large to fit between the center and edge would need a center hole large enough to fit over the center support. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 29 13:04:33 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 11:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <189add.ba55ec4.43134b07@aol.com> References: <189add.ba55ec4.43134b07@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > I thought the center thing was a duct also Ed# Baking diskettes in it would reduce the central ducting. The HarborFreight food dehydrator (#66906 $30, currently sale at $25) will work with the central ducting partially blocked. It has a heating element. On the ones with an incandescent bulb, using a CFL will reduce power consumption, but it doesn't do much drying/baking. From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com Sat Aug 29 13:09:06 2015 From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:09:06 -0400 Subject: Future Computers FX31 In-Reply-To: <55E1DDEC.6090909@gmail.com> References: <55E1DDEC.6090909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <030083E6-9DE2-49FD-A94F-9D7092833800@VMSSoftware.com> I can not see the picture but could it be an alphabook? Forgive me if this sounds like a joke,, but there a very short lived hardware called an Alphabook. Ran very hot, to hot for a laptop and weighed 14 pounds. If you have one I would hold onto it, People have mistakeny thought it was laptop (same dimensions). A friend picked on up for $25 because the person thought t was a broken laptop. This is a real Alpha. > On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > Anyone know anything about this system? Someone on a vintage computer group on Facebook has one (missing its keyboard[1]), and having seen some photos, although it seems to be mostly a generic PC-compatible with 8-bit ISA, it's notable for having a "video in" connector on the back, as well as LAN in/out ports (proprietary? presumably some kind of ring network though) > > Surprisingly, Google's coughing up nothing of any use. I'm guessing someone tried making a PC-compatible with a few built-in extras as a selling point (not that uncommon back then), and of course it didn't work out. > > [1] Although the keyboard socket is something oddball, I see four wires leading back to the motherboard and an 8042 near to where the keyboard connects, so there's a possibility that it can be wired to a standard AT (or possibly XT) keyboard - although of course maybe the scan codes or even the protocol are completely different, and the owner has themselves a nice boat anchor... > > cheers > > Jules > Sue Skonetski VP of Customer Advocacy Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 29 13:29:24 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 18:29:24 +0000 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <189add.ba55ec4.43134b07@aol.com>, Message-ID: > > It has a heating element. On the ones with an incandescent bulb, using a > CFL will reduce power consumption, but it doesn't do much drying/baking. ROFL -tony From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Aug 29 13:32:41 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:32:41 -0400 Subject: Area 51 - was Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620) In-Reply-To: References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E050E5.8090705@jetnet.ab.ca> <55E0D005.4050803@charter.net> <55E0E74E.8020400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <55E1FAC9.5030005@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-08-28 9:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 4:57 PM, ben wrote: >> Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next. > > Don't bother. There's nothing interesting in Area 51 any more; due to > all the publicity Area 51 has gotten, they've long since moved all the > good stuff to Area 52, which still has a low profile. > I know you're just being witty, but in fact it still seems quite active: http://ur1.ca/nloay --Toby From scaron at umich.edu Sat Aug 29 10:43:56 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 11:43:56 -0400 Subject: Cold War Tech - Area 52 In-Reply-To: <55E1C22C.6040105@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E050E5.8090705@jetnet.ab.ca> <55E0D005.4050803@charter.net> <55E0E74E.8020400@jetnet.ab.ca> <55E12A9E.5090800@jetnet.ab.ca> <20150829125212.GA54723@night.db.net> <55E1C22C.6040105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: If you're like this kind of stuff, I most emphatically suggest the book Valkyrie: North American's Mach 3 Superbomber by Landis and Jenkins. In addition to covering the XB-70 inside and out, it discusses contemporary programs of same i.e. the XF-103, XF-108 and even the Pye Wacket there in the original post (which was originally developed to be used with the XB-70)... extensively illustrated and with copious detail, it's an interesting look inside some of the far-out aerospace programs of the 1960s ... unfortunately out of print but a used copy is worth every dollar! Best, Sean On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 10:31 AM, ben wrote: > On 8/29/2015 6:52 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > >> >>> A real Area 51 link. - US UFO's >>> http://astronautix.com/craft/pyeacket.htm >>> I was looking for >>> Deepcold: Secrets of the Cold War in Space, 1959-1969 >>> but alas the web site has vanished from the face of the Earth. >>> Ben. >>> >>> >> Try >> >> https://web.archive.org/web/20120616210332/http://www.deepcold.com/index.html >> >> I don't have time to look at the archive, > but did the animated movies get archived. The important stuff as > very little non text is archived from web pages. > Porn of 1995 is just as important historical thing as any when > regarding history of then net. > Ben. > > From scaron at umich.edu Sat Aug 29 13:39:51 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:39:51 -0400 Subject: Future Computers FX31 In-Reply-To: <030083E6-9DE2-49FD-A94F-9D7092833800@VMSSoftware.com> References: <55E1DDEC.6090909@gmail.com> <030083E6-9DE2-49FD-A94F-9D7092833800@VMSSoftware.com> Message-ID: Alphabook is indeed a real thing; it was made by RDI, IIRC. They also did a HPPA laptop as well as their more commonly known SPARC machines sold in competition against Tadpole. These machines all suffered from the vices you describe however some people seem to still dig them just to have the exotic processors in the laptop form factor :O But I think the OP is describing something that's significantly older; maybe some kind of early near-PC-compatible x86 machine? Best, Sean On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 2:09 PM, Sue Skonetski < Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com> wrote: > I can not see the picture but could it be an alphabook? Forgive me if > this sounds like a joke,, but there a very short lived hardware called an > Alphabook. Ran very hot, to hot for a laptop and weighed 14 pounds. If > you have one I would hold onto it, People have mistakeny thought it was > laptop (same dimensions). A friend picked on up for $25 because the person > thought t was a broken laptop. This is a real Alpha. > > On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Jules Richardson < > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > Anyone know anything about this system? Someone on a vintage computer > group on Facebook has one (missing its keyboard[1]), and having seen some > photos, although it seems to be mostly a generic PC-compatible with 8-bit > ISA, it's notable for having a "video in" connector on the back, as well as > LAN in/out ports (proprietary? presumably some kind of ring network though) > > > > Surprisingly, Google's coughing up nothing of any use. I'm guessing > someone tried making a PC-compatible with a few built-in extras as a > selling point (not that uncommon back then), and of course it didn't work > out. > > > > [1] Although the keyboard socket is something oddball, I see four wires > leading back to the motherboard and an 8042 near to where the keyboard > connects, so there's a possibility that it can be wired to a standard AT > (or possibly XT) keyboard - although of course maybe the scan codes or even > the protocol are completely different, and the owner has themselves a nice > boat anchor... > > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > > > Sue Skonetski > > VP of Customer Advocacy > Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com > Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 > Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 > > > > > > > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations > > > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 15:12:58 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:12:58 -0500 Subject: Future Computers FX31 In-Reply-To: References: <55E1DDEC.6090909@gmail.com> <030083E6-9DE2-49FD-A94F-9D7092833800@VMSSoftware.com> Message-ID: <55E2124A.5040904@gmail.com> On 08/29/2015 01:39 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > But I think the OP is describing something that's significantly older; > maybe some kind of early near-PC-compatible x86 machine? Yes, it's a desktop system. From what I can make out from the photos, IC dates seem to be in 1987. I don't know what CPU it has - the owner just mentioned it as being pre-'386 - but it's odd to see an 8 bit ISA bus in something so late (and so with the inclusion of LAN hardware and the video input port, maybe it was built with a specific purpose in mind) cheers J. From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 29 15:23:12 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:23:12 -0500 Subject: DEC 9 Track Tapes (was Re: Applikon Workstation?) In-Reply-To: <55E1D66E.5090908@bitsavers.org> References: <20150825210233.GA96698@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150826071238.GA33523@beast.freibergnet.de> <55DE1163.5000309@charter.net> <55DE2CDB.9020101@charter.net> <55E08B7A.2030009@charter.net> <55E1D66E.5090908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55E214B0.6040500@charter.net> On 8/29/2015 10:57 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/28/15 9:25 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> Many/most 9 Track tapes (those from the early to mid-eighties until 1995 >> or so - what matters is the date of manufacture, not when they were >> written) have to be "baked" before reading, owing to "sticky shed >> syndrome". My experience with tapes earlier than that is that I can >> read them without baking them first. >> > > Mid-80's are the worst, especially Memorex, and BASF, which everyone used > because they were cheap. > Whatever HP bought for their distribution tapes (probably Graham > Magnetics) is very good. > IBM tape is good too. > DEC used crap tape for their distributions. > > Sadly, AT&T and Mt XINU ALSO used especially bad tape in > the late 80's, so many of the Unix distributions I've been dealing with > from > them lately are so sticky even after baking that they are impossible to > deal > with. > You can add Burroughs SP 3200 and SP 5000 and SP 9000 to your "bad boy" list. I had good luck with a 3M 777 6250 BPI Security Computer Tape. Like you, I have not had any issues with IBM tape. One Graham Verituf Certified Zero Defect at 3200 FCI / 1600 BPI that I processed did leave some residue, even after baking. If a tape is at 1600 BPI, I can sometimes get through it even if it is sticky after baking, so long as there are no retries. In fact, I have taken to setting retries to the smallest possible number (I think it is 2) on the drive during my first attempt at reading a tape so that if it does stick, I minimize the damage. A few times I have had luck with doing that, having a couple of read errors, then cleaning the drive and reading the tape again with the normal number of retries (9). At 6250 BPI, the drive won't stream continuously, so if one of those is sticky after baking, it is usually a challenge to get a good copy. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 29 15:28:46 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:28:46 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <189add.ba55ec4.43134b07@aol.com> Message-ID: <55E215FE.1050508@charter.net> On 8/29/2015 1:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: >> I thought the center thing was a duct also Ed# > > Baking diskettes in it would reduce the central ducting. > > The HarborFreight food dehydrator (#66906 $30, currently sale at $25) > will work with the central ducting partially blocked. > > It has a heating element. On the ones with an incandescent bulb, using > a CFL will reduce power consumption, but it doesn't do much drying/baking. > > Ooooh. Thanks for the pointer to HarborFreight. I think I will pop over to the store with a tape and see if they have one out to see if it is suitable today or tomorrow. JRJ From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Aug 29 15:32:27 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 16:32:27 -0400 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> > On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >> ... > > I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate > "modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked > similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally > "falling apart" and was not repairable. I sure have a hard time fathoming any of this. Quite apart from the obvious one of building a pin-compatible modern memory, another answer comes to mind. If a core plane has come apart, the cores could be recovered and restrung. That requires patience and dexterity, but it should be doable. It also requires a device to hold the cores correctly for threading; something like that could easily be made in a a 3d printer. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 29 15:36:12 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <55E215FE.1050508@charter.net> References: <189add.ba55ec4.43134b07@aol.com> <55E215FE.1050508@charter.net> Message-ID: >> The HarborFreight food dehydrator (#66906 $30, currently sale at $25) >> will work with the central ducting partially blocked. On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Ooooh. Thanks for the pointer to HarborFreight. I think I will pop > over to the store with a tape and see if they have one out to see if it > is suitable today or tomorrow. ID is 12.5" So, it would hold up to about 8.75" square If you're going to use it regularly, consider adding a fan. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Aug 29 17:11:31 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 18:11:31 -0400 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info Message-ID: <18d2e6.57b874f6.43138813@aol.com> this is similar to harvest one I have as my tiny baker. BUT I do not see a temp control.. more details!? even the temp control on harvester not to be trusted,,,, I have a long Kodak process thermometer I stick in for the occasional temp check.... IF IT DOES NOT HAVE A TEMP THERMOSTAT DO NOT GET Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) a baker since before it was proper! In a message dated 8/29/2015 1:27:02 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cube1 at charter.net writes: On 8/29/2015 1:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: >> I thought the center thing was a duct also Ed# > > Baking diskettes in it would reduce the central ducting. > > The HarborFreight food dehydrator (#66906 $30, currently sale at $25) > will work with the central ducting partially blocked. > > It has a heating element. On the ones with an incandescent bulb, using > a CFL will reduce power consumption, but it doesn't do much drying/baking. > > Ooooh. Thanks for the pointer to HarborFreight. I think I will pop over to the store with a tape and see if they have one out to see if it is suitable today or tomorrow. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 29 17:23:48 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 17:23:48 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <189add.ba55ec4.43134b07@aol.com> <55E215FE.1050508@charter.net> Message-ID: <55E230F4.5000401@charter.net> On 8/29/2015 3:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> The HarborFreight food dehydrator (#66906 $30, currently sale at $25) >>> will work with the central ducting partially blocked. > > On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> Ooooh. Thanks for the pointer to HarborFreight. I think I will pop >> over to the store with a tape and see if they have one out to see if it >> is suitable today or tomorrow. > > ID is 12.5" > So, it would hold up to about 8.75" square > > If you're going to use it regularly, consider adding a fan. > > I went over and had a look at it. As you mention, it has no fan at all. Size looked OK, and the heating element looked OK (it is not just a light bulb). No thermostat at all. All told, I decided to pass it up. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 29 17:26:27 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 17:26:27 -0500 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <18d2e6.57b874f6.43138813@aol.com> References: <18d2e6.57b874f6.43138813@aol.com> Message-ID: <55E23193.7040804@charter.net> On 8/29/2015 5:11 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > this is similar to harvest one I have as my tiny baker. BUT I do not > see a temp control.. > > more details!? > > even the temp control on harvester not to be trusted,,,, I have a long > Kodak process thermometer I stick in for the occasional temp check.... > > > IF IT DOES NOT HAVE A TEMP THERMOSTAT DO NOT GET > > Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) a baker since before it was > proper! > > No thermostat. But the fact that it had no thermostat was not, of itself, a deal breaker for me, as I have a PIC controller and UL listed power controller that I use now. But between no thermostat and no fan, I decided to take a pass, though the size was fine for the large 10.5" mag tape reels. JRJ From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Aug 29 17:41:53 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 18:41:53 -0400 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info Message-ID: <18d818.191b767b.43138f31@aol.com> do not get this EVIL no fan no thermostat... found BOOOO! NOT A GOOD ONE ( for tapes) manual for it http://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/66000-66999/66906.pdf I have one wife found at garage sale ... it is not good for tape work... I rather suggest $64 http://www.amazon.com/Nesco-American-FD-61-Snackmaster-Dehydrator/dp/B000CEM3WM I thinkI got mine at Walmart - but remember use the thermostat to on off the thing but for actual temp use a process thermometer . ALSO LOOK AT OTHER OFFERING IN SIZE AN WATTAGE at bottom of this Amazon page http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=nesco+american+harvest+trays&tag=g ooghydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=61714117524&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=s&hvrand=10 83555451302563676&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_2uhe80t19_b hope this helps.... Ed Sharpe Archivist and Chief Baker for SMECC! N ote: When the unit is plugged in, it?s warming element will constantly be on. When you are finished, unplug the unit to turn it off. 6. After the food is arranged on a tray, do not place on the base yet. STACK UP AND SET ASIDE. In a message dated 8/29/2015 1:27:02 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cube1 at charter.net writes: On 8/29/2015 1:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: >> I thought the center thing was a duct also Ed# > > Baking diskettes in it would reduce the central ducting. > > The HarborFreight food dehydrator (#66906 $30, currently sale at $25) > will work with the central ducting partially blocked. > > It has a heating element. On the ones with an incandescent bulb, using > a CFL will reduce power consumption, but it doesn't do much drying/baking. > > Ooooh. Thanks for the pointer to HarborFreight. I think I will pop over to the store with a tape and see if they have one out to see if it is suitable today or tomorrow. JRJ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 29 18:11:07 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 16:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <18d2e6.57b874f6.43138813@aol.com> References: <18d2e6.57b874f6.43138813@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > IF IT DOES NOT HAVE A TEMP THERMOSTAT DO NOT GET So that we can remove it and put in a trustworthy one? The commercial part is the housing, trays, lid (with adjustable vent). Prefer transparent. You can make your own, or buy something cheap to build a good one out of. The HarborFreight one is barely usable for this unless/until you add a thermostat, a fan, a timer, an extension cord, . . . Were you looking for one that already has the desired enhancements? I used one sorta like it 35 years ago (before HarborFreight was selling one) From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 29 18:18:55 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 16:18:55 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: <18d818.191b767b.43138f31@aol.com> References: <18d818.191b767b.43138f31@aol.com> Message-ID: <55E23DDF.40408@sydex.com> If it helps, I use an PID controller in my unit (inexpensive on eBay) with a PT100 sensor in the center (open air) of the chamber. A low-speed fan (from a microwave oven, using a 7W lamp in series) blows down over a 60W incandescent lamp at the top of the chamber and over the material to be treated. As I mentioned before, it is well insulated. It takes about 20 minutes to reach and stabilize at 58C. It can run for days using very little power. Using a separate temperature probe, I've noticed no hot spots to speak of. Capacity is about 1.5 cu. ft. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Aug 29 18:37:57 2015 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 16:37:57 -0700 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info Message-ID: ????I JUST USE IT WITH ?MY PROCESS THERMOMETER ..... WHICH ?I WOULD STILL USE ANYWAY TO CHECK SOME DIGITAL CONTRAPTION I HAD REPLACED THE ORIGINAL ?THERMOSTAT ?WITH ANYWAY... Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Fred Cisin Date: 08/29/2015 4:11 PM (GMT-07:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: TK50/TK70 Info On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > IF IT? DOES NOT? HAVE A TEMP? THERMOSTAT DO NOT? GET So that we can remove it and put in a trustworthy one? The commercial part is the housing, trays, lid (with adjustable vent). Prefer transparent. You can make your own, or buy something cheap to build a good one out of. The HarborFreight one is barely usable for this unless/until you add a thermostat, a fan, a timer, an extension cord, . . . Were you looking for one that already has the desired enhancements? I used one sorta like it 35 years ago (before HarborFreight was selling one) From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 29 19:57:11 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 19:57:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >> I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate >> "modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked >> similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally >> "falling apart" and was not repairable. > > I sure have a hard time fathoming any of this. > > Quite apart from the obvious one of building a pin-compatible modern > memory, another answer comes to mind. If a core plane has come apart, > the cores could be recovered and restrung. That requires patience and > dexterity, but it should be doable. It also requires a device to hold > the cores correctly for threading; something like that could easily be > made in a a 3d printer. Those particular cores are quite small and I'm not sure a 3d printer would be able to print a jig with the tolerances required. IBM had special machines to position and thread them. http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf I can certainly understand why repair wasn't initially attempted, however that doesn't mean it is impossible. Given the rarity of the system, welding new stubs of wire to the original enamel wire or completely rebuilding the core planes with all new wire might still well be a worthwhile project at some point in the future. It might even be possible to keep most of the cores in position and rethread just one portion (X, Y, sense/inhibit) at a time. Another plus is that because of the way the wires are threaded, it is unlikely that any of the cores have been lost, even if a large number of wires have broken at the terminals. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Aug 29 20:29:38 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 18:29:38 -0700 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 Message-ID: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> I was surprised to see the average cart price to be over $120! http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/29/sales-unearthed-atari-games-total-more-than-100000/?intcmp=hpbt4 Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ian.finder at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 20:36:57 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 18:36:57 -0700 Subject: Xerox 6085 / daybreak microcode boot issues Message-ID: So I picked up a 6085- When I try and boot it, it gets stuck on 0199, which indicates microcode is getting loaded. It never gets to 0200 or 0201, indicating a success or failure loading microcode. It just hangs. If I boot diagnostics instead, it tells me (in report codes) to replace the MPB first, followed by the IOP/io board. Well, I can't really replace the MPB because I don't have another, and I paid quite a bit for the machine. Anyone seen this issue before? Where should I start on diagnosing the CPU? Better yet, if someone has a 6085 MPB they are willing to sell, I would be eternally grateful. Cheers, - Ian Sent from my iPhone From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 20:43:56 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 13:43:56 +1200 Subject: Xerox 6085 / daybreak microcode boot issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Where are you? I have a bunch of 6085s, and a fair number of spare boards. Mike On Aug 30, 2015 1:37 PM, "Ian Finder" wrote: > So I picked up a 6085- > > When I try and boot it, it gets stuck on 0199, which indicates microcode > is getting loaded. It never gets to 0200 or 0201, indicating a success or > failure loading microcode. It just hangs. > > If I boot diagnostics instead, it tells me (in report codes) to replace > the MPB first, followed by the IOP/io board. > > Well, I can't really replace the MPB because I don't have another, and I > paid quite a bit for the machine. > > Anyone seen this issue before? Where should I start on diagnosing the CPU? > > Better yet, if someone has a 6085 MPB they are willing to sell, I would be > eternally grateful. > > Cheers, > > - Ian > > Sent from my iPhone From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 20:48:10 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 20:48:10 -0500 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> Message-ID: Have the prices for 2600 E.T. carts climbed over the years, or is these buyers paying a premium to own a "Genuine landfill ATARI E.T. game, complete with certificate of authenticity" etc.? Thing is, the article mentions only a few hundred carts. Rumor had it that many thousands of carts were dumped, and realistically, such an operation would never have been worth the while to dispose of only a few hundred, or maybe a couple thousand carts. Volumes like that could easily be crushed & ground-up. No need to drag equipment out to the middle of the desert, just to dump a few hundred pounds of junk. On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I was surprised to see the average cart price to be over $120! > > > http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/29/sales-unearthed-atari-games-total-more-than-100000/?intcmp=hpbt4 > > Lyle > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 29 20:48:14 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 18:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I was surprised to see the average cart price to be over $120! > http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/29/sales-unearthed-atari-games-total-more-than-100000/?intcmp=hpbt4 Is that true? Where can we bury some stuff? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 29 21:30:15 2015 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 03:30:15 +0100 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <003301d0e2cb$d4b5ff40$172b190a@user8459cef6fa> I managed to get one of the cartridges, but it was not an E.T. cartridge. I got one of the dirtier ones, I wasn't gonna pay over $300 for it. When I got mine on eBay, the more pristene cartridges were going for $1000 to $1500. I only saw 6 or 7 items like that though. But from what I recall, the person doing the selling was only selling around 30 cartridges at a time, most being sold individually - though there were a few really dirty carts they tried to sell as a lot (e.g. 3 cartridges in one sale). So, not only did I get a cartridge (in a plastic bag, with some dirt from across the pond), but I did get some neat documentation too (which did include a few pictures). Regards, Andrew Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk www.aliensrcooluk.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle Bickley" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 2:29 AM Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 > I was surprised to see the average cart price to be over $120! > > http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/29/sales-unearthed-atari-games-total-more-than-100000/?intcmp=hpbt4 > > Lyle > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ethan at 757.org Sat Aug 29 23:37:12 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 00:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> Message-ID: > Have the prices for 2600 E.T. carts climbed over the years, or is these > buyers paying a premium to own a "Genuine landfill ATARI E.T. game, > complete with certificate of authenticity" etc.? General ET carts are cheap AFAIK. The landfill ones are special. > Thing is, the article mentions only a few hundred carts. Rumor had it that > many thousands of carts were dumped, and realistically, such an operation > would never have been worth the while to dispose of only a few hundred, or > maybe a couple thousand carts. There were rumors of tons of them, but what they found was warehouse excess and I don't think it was that much of it. There are a few documentaries made on it. One was a full movie from the Angry Video Game Nerd (people have been bugging him to review ET for a long time.) Then there were a few others, should be on youtube. If you're interested in Atari 2600 history, I also recommend the documentaries "Stella At 20" and the Stella at 20 part two. It was a 20th birthday party for the 2600 held at Noland Bushnells house (the first part, 2nd was additional people off site.) Lots of interesting insight into the a machine that changed the world. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Aug 30 00:05:36 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 22:05:36 -0700 Subject: MEM11 Status Update Message-ID: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com> I'm making good progress on the MEM11 firmware. I spent the last few days re-doing the firmware build environment. Previously, it would build all the files each time. Now there is a proper Makefile (even though it takes about a minute to build everything). I realized that I needed something better than what I had because there are multiple targets (emulator, FPGA eval board and the MEM11 board itself). Right now I'm focused on getting as much debugged on the emulator since it has a reasonable debuging environment. I've also integrated various test programs into the build environment and use various low level code as part of the main firmware for hardware access. This "kills two birds with one stone" since it tests not only the various hardware functions it also allows me to debug some of the firmware separately from the full code base. At this point, the emulator fully supports all of the J1 instructions (and they all work too!). In terms of I/O (that will be part of the MEM11 board) it supports LEDs and various configuration inputs, FRAM, UART and timers. The biggest risk that I'm taking is that the UART is emulated as being directly exposed. On the MEM11 hardware, the UART will be connected through a SPI interface which requires that all accesses to the UART are asynchronous transactions. The biggest piece of work remaining on the emulator will be emulating the Unibus interface. The work here will mainly to create a means to script various Unibus transactions. However, before doing that, I'll be testing out the boot loader code and the configuration firmware since none of that is dependent upon the existence of functional Unibus hardware. TTFN - Guy From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Sun Aug 30 00:16:13 2015 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 01:16:13 -0400 Subject: MEM11 Status Update In-Reply-To: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com> References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com> Hi Guy, Hello!?! What is the MEM11 Board and are there other boards to make this a fully functional PDP11? I definitely want to know! Thanks in advance. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy Sotomayor > Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 1:06 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: MEM11 Status Update > > I'm making good progress on the MEM11 firmware. I spent the last few days re-doing the firmware build environment. Previously, it > would build all the files each time. Now there is a proper Makefile (even though it takes about a minute to build everything). I > realized that I needed something better than what I had because there are multiple targets (emulator, FPGA eval board and the > MEM11 board itself). Right now I'm focused on getting as much debugged on the emulator since it has a reasonable debuging > environment. > > I've also integrated various test programs into the build environment and use various low level code as part of the main firmware for > hardware access. > This "kills two birds with one stone" since it tests not only the various hardware functions it also allows me to debug some of the > firmware separately from the full code base. > > At this point, the emulator fully supports all of the J1 instructions (and they all work too!). In terms of I/O (that will be part of the > MEM11 board) it supports LEDs and various configuration inputs, FRAM, UART and timers. > The biggest risk that I'm taking is that the UART is emulated as being directly exposed. On the MEM11 hardware, the UART will be > connected through a SPI interface which requires that all accesses to the UART are asynchronous transactions. > > The biggest piece of work remaining on the emulator will be emulating the Unibus interface. The work here will mainly to create a > means to script various Unibus transactions. > > However, before doing that, I'll be testing out the boot loader code and the configuration firmware since none of that is dependent > upon the existence of functional Unibus hardware. > > TTFN - Guy From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 00:28:33 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 00:28:33 -0500 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> Message-ID: Not to drag this out, but.. How might a collector discern a "landfill" E.T. cart from any other E.T. cat that some snarky guy buried in the clay of his back forty? Is it down to the "Cert of Auth"? Or is there some other tell-tale, like a serial series, board runs, or molding marks? Pardon my nag, but the value aspect seems so vague. On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 11:37 PM, wrote: > Have the prices for 2600 E.T. carts climbed over the years, or is these >> buyers paying a premium to own a "Genuine landfill ATARI E.T. game, >> complete with certificate of authenticity" etc.? >> > > General ET carts are cheap AFAIK. The landfill ones are special. > > Thing is, the article mentions only a few hundred carts. Rumor had it that >> many thousands of carts were dumped, and realistically, such an operation >> would never have been worth the while to dispose of only a few hundred, or >> maybe a couple thousand carts. >> > > There were rumors of tons of them, but what they found was warehouse > excess and I don't think it was that much of it. > > There are a few documentaries made on it. One was a full movie from the > Angry Video Game Nerd (people have been bugging him to review ET for a long > time.) Then there were a few others, should be on youtube. > > If you're interested in Atari 2600 history, I also recommend the > documentaries "Stella At 20" and the Stella at 20 part two. It was a 20th > birthday party for the 2600 held at Noland Bushnells house (the first part, > 2nd was additional people off site.) Lots of interesting insight into the a > machine that changed the world. > > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Aug 30 01:08:14 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 23:08:14 -0700 Subject: MEM11 Status Update In-Reply-To: <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com> References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com> <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com> The MEM11 is a multi-function memory board for Unibus based PDP-11 computers. It contains: * 128KW memory * Emulates console ROM & boot ROMs * 2 SLUs (DL11s) * KW11K * KW11P * KW11L * KW11W * RF11 (emulating up to 8 RS11 disks) * KE11 Because of the large number of devices that exist on the board, it operates in 2 modes: - Run Mode. This is the operational mode of the MEM11 where it appears as the indicated devices to the rest of the PDP11. - Config Mode. This is a mode where the devices on the MEM11 can be configured. This is all done though a CLI that is accessed through one of the SLUs. Because all of this is implemented in firmware on the MEM11 board (it contains a J1 uP in the FPGA), I've implemented a boot loader to load various versions of the code into the FPGA. The firmware is stored in the FRAM not used for emulating the Unibus memory, ROMs or RS11 disks. The boot loader (based upon the settings of the only 2 jumpers on the board) will determine what code to load into the FPGA. It should be noted that the memory that the J1 executes out of is all contained in the FPGA itself. The J1 RAM (as it's called) initially contains the "cold boot" loader which determines which area from the FRAM is to be loaded. When in Config Mode, various parts of the FRAM can be updated. This allows for me to send out firmware updates without folks having to use a JTAG programmer. Config Mode also contains the ability to transfer data to/from the various FRAM regions using the XMODEM protocol. This also allows for the various ROM images to be loaded/dumped as well as the contents of the RS11 disks. The biggest struggle has been one of space. The J1 only has 16KB of RAM space. Right now the Config Mode image is a bit over 15KB. I also have to reserve 512B in each image for the boot loader. In order to get the Config Mode image to fit all of the strings that are used for printing, parsing, help text, etc. remain in FRAM. Individual strings are only fetched into J1 RAM when the string is to be used. The Config Mode firmware is now complete. I've been building up the emulator so that I'm very close to starting to actually debug the full firmware image. I have a few other tests to perform first. The Run Mode firmware is not yet complete. The main parts of the firmware have been written. Currently the Run Mode firmware supports: - Unibus memory - ROMs - SLUs I want to get that working on the emulator before I write the remaining firmware. The main objective is to provide the memory and I/O necessary to be able to run Unix V1 (I also added a few more things because they're just "code"). There's a lot to this (and various things have kept me from working on this as much as I wanted to). I also plan on providing fairly detailed documentation with each board (but there is a fairly extensive help system in Config Mode). TTFN - Guy On 8/29/15 10:16 PM, Kip Koon wrote: > Hi Guy, > Hello!?! What is the MEM11 Board and are there other boards to make this a fully functional PDP11? I definitely want to know! Thanks in advance. > > Kip Koon > computerdoc at sc.rr.com > http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy Sotomayor >> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 1:06 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: MEM11 Status Update >> >> I'm making good progress on the MEM11 firmware. I spent the last few days re-doing the firmware build environment. Previously, it >> would build all the files each time. Now there is a proper Makefile (even though it takes about a minute to build everything). I >> realized that I needed something better than what I had because there are multiple targets (emulator, FPGA eval board and the >> MEM11 board itself). Right now I'm focused on getting as much debugged on the emulator since it has a reasonable debuging >> environment. >> >> I've also integrated various test programs into the build environment and use various low level code as part of the main firmware for >> hardware access. >> This "kills two birds with one stone" since it tests not only the various hardware functions it also allows me to debug some of the >> firmware separately from the full code base. >> >> At this point, the emulator fully supports all of the J1 instructions (and they all work too!). In terms of I/O (that will be part of the >> MEM11 board) it supports LEDs and various configuration inputs, FRAM, UART and timers. >> The biggest risk that I'm taking is that the UART is emulated as being directly exposed. On the MEM11 hardware, the UART will be >> connected through a SPI interface which requires that all accesses to the UART are asynchronous transactions. >> >> The biggest piece of work remaining on the emulator will be emulating the Unibus interface. The work here will mainly to create a >> means to script various Unibus transactions. >> >> However, before doing that, I'll be testing out the boot loader code and the configuration firmware since none of that is dependent >> upon the existence of functional Unibus hardware. >> >> TTFN - Guy > From mspproductions at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 15:15:25 2015 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 16:15:25 -0400 Subject: TK50/TK70 Info In-Reply-To: References: <260DD1A4-5733-4B4C-8320-E8DE55E9403A@typewritten.org> <1E528FA4-1F15-4989-A2FD-187C12994B0B@typewritten.org> <99B62498-7B26-45A5-8724-3F86C6384F8D@nf6x.net> <55E079BE.6030006@bitsavers.org> <0661B8A3-A1C6-4C31-9065-D1C867DC1971@nf6x.net> <1EA04706-0A28-41D2-9462-64A12ABE48CE@comcast.net> <55E09D43.5030301@pico-systems.com> <8AA45ABB-FA7B-4C1C-8287-8707C8CF30E7@nf6x.net> <55E11CE8.7010906@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <0B5004DF-BE2C-4E90-9A99-C3BF1DD2DB10@gmail.com> Here is what one of the modified trays looks like installed. -------------- next part -------------- And here is an unmodified one. -------------- next part -------------- My timer and temperature monitoring system. The thermistor probe sits in the air stream. -------------- next part -------------- Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 29, 2015, at 11:45 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >> On Aug 29, 2015, at 08:00, Matt Patoray wrote: >> >> But the food dehydrator comes with multiple shelves, and you can cut the center support out of one of them. That is how I have modified mine to accept 1" C format Videotape reels. > > Oh, maybe I misunderstood, then. I thought the center support was some sort of fixed air duct, and that anything too large to fit between the center and edge would need a center hole large enough to fit over the center support. > > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > From stephen.hunt at iname.com Sat Aug 29 16:10:01 2015 From: stephen.hunt at iname.com (Steve Hunt) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 23:10:01 +0200 Subject: Future Computers FX31 In-Reply-To: <55E2124A.5040904@gmail.com> References: <55E1DDEC.6090909@gmail.com> <030083E6-9DE2-49FD-A94F-9D7092833800@VMSSoftware.com> , <55E2124A.5040904@gmail.com> Message-ID: >Sent:?Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 9:12 PM >From:?"Jules Richardson" >Yes, it's a desktop system. From what I can make out from the photos, IC >dates seem to be in 1987. I don't know what CPU it has - the owner just >mentioned it as being pre-'386 - but it's odd to see an 8 bit ISA bus in >something so late (and so with the inclusion of LAN hardware and the video >input port, maybe it was built with a specific purpose in mind) I'm guessing this is it: http://www.sekaimon.com/i361201143538 Scroll down to find the images of a desktop unit. The pics look just like an FX31 that was advertised on ebay.co.uk earlier on this year. From iafinder at microsoft.com Sat Aug 29 19:29:43 2015 From: iafinder at microsoft.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 00:29:43 +0000 Subject: Xerox 6085 microcode boot issues Message-ID: <40D189CC-3170-4E1F-BB5F-FAC85579F050@microsoft.com> So I picked up a 6085- When I try and boot it, it gets stuck on 0199, which indicates microcode is getting loaded. It never gets to 0200 or 0201, indicating a success or failure loading microcode. It just hangs. If I boot diagnostics instead, it tells me (in report codes) to replace the MPB first, followed by the IOP/io board. Well, I can't really replace the MPB because I don't have another, and I paid quite a bit for the machine. Anyone seen this issue before? Where should I start on diagnosing the CPU? Better yet, if someone has a 6085 MPB they are willing to sell, I would be eternally grateful. Cheers, - Ian From vlad.stamate at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 20:07:52 2015 From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:07:52 -0400 Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151 Message-ID: Hi all, I am trying to identify why my IBM 5151 display has no picture when connected to a normal MDA card in a IBM PC 5150. So armed with an oscilloscope, digital multi-meter and the SAMS Computerfacts for it I started to investigate. First, the card does send out signal and that signal does reach the board inside the monitor. I checked the power part of the circuit, all diodes and the transistor check fine. I probed some of the vertical and horizontal transistors and there is a signal there too. Then on the video board both TR19 and TR20 have on their collector and emitter (respectively) a signal (95Khz). What else can possibly be wrong? The SAMS manual talks about "injecting a video signal" at different pins however I have no idea exactly how to do that. So there is current going out of the power part and there is signal on the video board attached to the neck of the CRT. Regards, Vlad. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 20:17:18 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:17:18 -0400 Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is a 2nd connector for the video card of the 5151. I can't quite tell if you mean you have the video card that comes with the 5155 and you're trying to test with a card that came from somewhere else or something else. I am unsure if the 2nd connector pertains to the internal or external port, but you want to be sure you have this in place. . http://vintagecomputer.net/ibm/5155/ibm5155_monitor_connector_cga_card_closeup.jpg On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 9:07 PM, Vlad Stamate wrote: > Hi all, > > I am trying to identify why my IBM 5151 display has no picture when > connected to a normal MDA card in a IBM PC 5150. So armed with an > oscilloscope, digital multi-meter and the SAMS Computerfacts for it I > started to investigate. First, the card does send out signal and that > signal does reach the board inside the monitor. I checked the power > part of the circuit, all diodes and the transistor check fine. I > probed some of the vertical and horizontal transistors and there is a > signal there too. Then on the video board both TR19 and TR20 have on > their collector and emitter (respectively) a signal (95Khz). What else > can possibly be wrong? > > The SAMS manual talks about "injecting a video signal" at different > pins however I have no idea exactly how to do that. > > So there is current going out of the power part and there is signal on > the video board attached to the neck of the CRT. > > Regards, > Vlad. > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From vlad.stamate at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 20:24:14 2015 From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:24:14 -0400 Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a normal IBM PC 5150 (not a 5155) with the usual MDA card inside. So when the computer is on, no picture comes on the monitor. So I am trying to diagnose that. (on a side note I do have a few of both monochrome cards as well as another IBM PC XT - 5160 as well as 2 other 286 based machines I can try, just in case the issue is NOT with the monochrome monitor but with the card/PC assembly). Regards, Vlad. On 29 August 2015 at 21:17, william degnan wrote: > There is a 2nd connector for the video card of the 5151. I can't quite tell > if you mean you have the video card that comes with the 5155 and you're > trying to test with a card that came from somewhere else or something else. > I am unsure if the 2nd connector pertains to the internal or external port, > but you want to be sure you have this in place. > . > http://vintagecomputer.net/ibm/5155/ibm5155_monitor_connector_cga_card_closeup.jpg > > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 9:07 PM, Vlad Stamate > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I am trying to identify why my IBM 5151 display has no picture when >> connected to a normal MDA card in a IBM PC 5150. So armed with an >> oscilloscope, digital multi-meter and the SAMS Computerfacts for it I >> started to investigate. First, the card does send out signal and that >> signal does reach the board inside the monitor. I checked the power >> part of the circuit, all diodes and the transistor check fine. I >> probed some of the vertical and horizontal transistors and there is a >> signal there too. Then on the video board both TR19 and TR20 have on >> their collector and emitter (respectively) a signal (95Khz). What else >> can possibly be wrong? >> >> The SAMS manual talks about "injecting a video signal" at different >> pins however I have no idea exactly how to do that. >> >> So there is current going out of the power part and there is signal on >> the video board attached to the neck of the CRT. >> >> Regards, >> Vlad. >> > > > > -- > Bill > vintagecomputer.net From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 20:27:14 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:27:14 -0400 Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: often the card is the culprit, sometimes shorting out the entire sytem. On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 9:24 PM, Vlad Stamate wrote: > I have a normal IBM PC 5150 (not a 5155) with the usual MDA card > inside. So when the computer is on, no picture comes on the monitor. > So I am trying to diagnose that. > > (on a side note I do have a few of both monochrome cards as well as > another IBM PC XT - 5160 as well as 2 other 286 based machines I can > try, just in case the issue is NOT with the monochrome monitor but > with the card/PC assembly). > > Regards, > Vlad. > > On 29 August 2015 at 21:17, william degnan wrote: > > There is a 2nd connector for the video card of the 5151. I can't quite > tell > > if you mean you have the video card that comes with the 5155 and you're > > trying to test with a card that came from somewhere else or something > else. > > I am unsure if the 2nd connector pertains to the internal or external > port, > > but you want to be sure you have this in place. > > . > > > http://vintagecomputer.net/ibm/5155/ibm5155_monitor_connector_cga_card_closeup.jpg > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 9:07 PM, Vlad Stamate > > wrote: > > > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I am trying to identify why my IBM 5151 display has no picture when > >> connected to a normal MDA card in a IBM PC 5150. So armed with an > >> oscilloscope, digital multi-meter and the SAMS Computerfacts for it I > >> started to investigate. First, the card does send out signal and that > >> signal does reach the board inside the monitor. I checked the power > >> part of the circuit, all diodes and the transistor check fine. I > >> probed some of the vertical and horizontal transistors and there is a > >> signal there too. Then on the video board both TR19 and TR20 have on > >> their collector and emitter (respectively) a signal (95Khz). What else > >> can possibly be wrong? > >> > >> The SAMS manual talks about "injecting a video signal" at different > >> pins however I have no idea exactly how to do that. > >> > >> So there is current going out of the power part and there is signal on > >> the video board attached to the neck of the CRT. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Vlad. > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Bill > > vintagecomputer.net > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 29 20:29:06 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 18:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I am trying to identify why my IBM 5151 display has no picture when >> connected to a normal MDA card in a IBM PC 5150. So armed with an On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, william degnan wrote: > There is a 2nd connector for the video card of the 5151. 5151 is a monitor number. > I can't quite tell > if you mean you have the video card that comes with the 5155 and you're > trying to test with a card that came from somewhere else or something else. > I am unsure if the 2nd connector pertains to the internal or external port, > but you want to be sure you have this in place. > http://vintagecomputer.net/ibm/5155/ibm5155_monitor_connector_cga_card_closeup.jpg He said 5151 connected to MDA in 5150. That would have little or no overlap with what the 5155 has. The 5155 does not use an MDA, although one COULD be added for a second monitor. The 5155 uses CGA. The CGA has three video outs. There is a DE9 RGB video out, for color monitors. Should never be connected to a 5151 or other MDA/MONO(MDA)/Hercules monitor! The CGA also has an RCA with composite (almost RS-170) video out. And, the CGA has, just inside the bracket, a 4 pin sometimes keyed Berg connector that was originally intended for an RF modulator such as the SUP'R'MODII. That connector has voltage and composite, and is used in the 5155 for the internal monitor. The CGA also has a 6 pin Berg connector for light-pen. He said 5151 connected to MDA in 5150. So, none of the CGA stuff applies. The MDA board, has a DE9 for IBM MDA MONO (sometimes called "Hercules" in a futile attempt to avoid ambiguity). The IBM MDA board also has a DB25 parallel printer port (sometimes erroneously called "Centronics"). Hence, the IBM board is called MDP, and there are many AFTER-market MDA boards. Some of the IBM MDA boards have a light-pen connector? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 29 20:33:10 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 18:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, william degnan wrote: > often the card is the culprit, sometimes shorting out the entire sytem. Absolutely! And, if the motherboard is set for CGA, instead of MDA, the board might not come up. BUT, he did say that he had what the thought might be video signals reaching the monitor. In addition, VGA boards can be problematic in configuration. When bringing up a PC of those vintages, I try to always start with a CGA board and appropriate monitor. THEN, once that is working, THEN put the VGA in. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Aug 30 02:50:26 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 09:50:26 +0200 Subject: MEM11 Status Update In-Reply-To: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com> References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Guy Sotomayor Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 7:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: MEM11 Status Update [... snip ...] The biggest piece of work remaining on the emulator will be emulating the Unibus interface. The work here will mainly to create a means to script various Unibus transactions. However, before doing that, I'll be testing out the boot loader code and the configuration firmware since none of that is dependent upon the existence of functional Unibus hardware. TTFN - Guy ------------ Guy, as you have sort-of all possible UNIBUS transactions because of the devices supported by the MEM11, I guess there is still so work to do ;-) One question came to my mind. Suppose I manage to "crash" the board in such a bad way that it does not start up anymore. Is there a jumper to force it to execute a "golden boot"? That is, load a minimal "kernel" to bring the MEM11 back to life to reload the bootloader and firmware? Shipping a dead MEM11 back to the Creator inside USA is OK, but from Europe etc. might get costly. And Customs probably wants to put tax on it when shipped back from you. Good work! - Henk From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 03:49:00 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 09:49:00 +0100 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> Message-ID: <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tothwolf > Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 1:57 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: IBM 1620 > > On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > > On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Lyle Bickley > wrote: > > > >> I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate > >> "modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I > asked > >> similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally > >> "falling apart" and was not repairable. > > > > I sure have a hard time fathoming any of this. > > > > Quite apart from the obvious one of building a pin-compatible modern > > memory, another answer comes to mind. If a core plane has come apart, > > the cores could be recovered and restrung. That requires patience and > > dexterity, but it should be doable. It also requires a device to hold > > the cores correctly for threading; something like that could easily be > > made in a a 3d printer. > > Those particular cores are quite small and I'm not sure a 3d printer would be > able to print a jig with the tolerances required. Perhaps a consumer 3-D printer wouldn't, but there are higher precision printers out there that will print to a high accuracy. Also not that 3-D printing with filament is just a small part of a wide range of techniques available. There are several processes:- http://3dprintingindustry.com/3d-printing-basics-free-beginners-guide/proces ses/ some of which are not available to the Amateur because of cost (especially un-expired patents) or just too complex... There are also subtractive manufacturing methods such as laser cutting/etching and CNC milling which could be more suitable for building a core jig.... .. Most of the FabLabs will have one of these available http://www.rolanddg.com/product/3d/3d/mdx-20_15/application.html and a laser cutter.... >IBM had special machines to > position and thread them. > http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf > Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. Looking at it, the machines are extremely complex, but I am sure they could be reproduced, albeit at a probably prohibitive cost... .. I have marked for later reading... > I can certainly understand why repair wasn't initially attempted, however > that doesn't mean it is impossible. Given the rarity of the system, welding > new stubs of wire to the original enamel wire or completely rebuilding the > core planes with all new wire might still well be a worthwhile project at some > point in the future. It might even be possible to keep most of the cores in > position and rethread just one portion (X, Y, > sense/inhibit) at a time. > > Another plus is that because of the way the wires are threaded, it is unlikely > that any of the cores have been lost, even if a large number of wires have > broken at the terminals. Dave Wade G4UGM From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Aug 30 04:13:42 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 11:13:42 +0200 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <55E2C946.1060406@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-30 03:48, drlegendre . wrote: > Have the prices for 2600 E.T. carts climbed over the years, or is these > buyers paying a premium to own a "Genuine landfill ATARI E.T. game, > complete with certificate of authenticity" etc.? > > Thing is, the article mentions only a few hundred carts. Rumor had it that > many thousands of carts were dumped, and realistically, such an operation > would never have been worth the while to dispose of only a few hundred, or > maybe a couple thousand carts. > > Volumes like that could easily be crushed & ground-up. No need to drag > equipment out to the middle of the desert, just to dump a few hundred > pounds of junk. They (Atari) dumped/crushed approximately 700.000 games in the landfill. They (interested people) recently excavated a small part, and recovered a few hundred games. This is not related to how many were in there. Much was rubble, and most was not excavated. It was decided to auction off some of the games recovered to benefit the local town in Mexico, if I remember right. Johnny > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Lyle Bickley > wrote: > >> I was surprised to see the average cart price to be over $120! >> >> >> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/29/sales-unearthed-atari-games-total-more-than-100000/?intcmp=hpbt4 >> >> Lyle >> -- >> Lyle Bickley >> Bickley Consulting West Inc. >> http://bickleywest.com >> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" >> -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Aug 30 04:56:29 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 10:56:29 +0100 Subject: Saved DEC kit In-Reply-To: <20150801102950.4812881.56720.1243@krankikom.de> Message-ID: Hi Lukas, Shipping is certainly possible but expensive, the 4000 plus a decent sized packing box will be around 10kg so a rough guess would be ukp45/?62. If that doesn't sound too bad I can box it up next week and let you know. Cheers Adrian On 01/08/2015 11:29, "Lukas Kaminski" wrote: > Hi, I would be very interested in the 4000 vlc. Is it still available? Also is > shipping to Germany possible? How miuch would it cost? > > Bye, > > Lukas Kaminski > > Sent?from?my?BlackBerry?10?smartphone. > ? Original Message ? > From: Adrian Graham > Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2015 12:11 > To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Saved DEC kit > > Folks, > > Before the great company meltdown of Jan this year and as I discovered the > great mailing list breakdown of not long after I saved some DEC kit for list > members to collect, namely: > > Alpha 800 (rackmount) > uVAX 2000 > VAX 4000VLC > > These are still in my hallway in Cambs UK so if either the people who called > for them or failing that anyone else would like to collect that'd be great. > > I have proper scales for shipping weight but they need to be calibrated and > I'm struggling to find anything that weighs exactly 25kg :) > (I know the Alpha800 is '24-28kg', scales are pretty correct there, as they > are with my DS25, but they get a DS10 horribly wrong so...) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Aug 30 07:20:07 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 08:20:07 -0400 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <11032AA2-89EE-48FC-9BDA-14726DDA0374@comcast.net> > On Aug 30, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > ... >> IBM had special machines to >> position and thread them. >> http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf Interesting. I remember learning about the processes DEC used. No fancy machines, just a flat plate jig with slots to hold the cores in their correct position, and nimble-fingered Oriental ladies to thread the wire through the core planes by hand. Seemed sensible to me; that is the process I was thinking about for this case. paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 08:28:28 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 14:28:28 +0100 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <11032AA2-89EE-48FC-9BDA-14726DDA0374@comcast.net> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <11032AA2-89EE-48FC-9BDA-14726DDA0374@comcast.net> Message-ID: <058d01d0e327$c2837850$478a68f0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Koning > Sent: 30 August 2015 13:20 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: IBM 1620 > > > > On Aug 30, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Dave G4UGM > wrote: > > > > ... > >> IBM had special machines to > >> position and thread them. > >> http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf > > Interesting. I remember learning about the processes DEC used. No fancy > machines, just a flat plate jig with slots to hold the cores in their correct > position, and nimble-fingered Oriental ladies to thread the wire through the > core planes by hand. Seemed sensible to me; that is the process I was > thinking about for this case. > > paul Surely DEC used machine threaded cores later on. There is a 16k (I think) DEC board in the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester that must be machine woven as you can't see the individual cores without heavy magnification... From ats at offog.org Sun Aug 30 08:54:21 2015 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 14:54:21 +0100 Subject: Future Computers FX31 In-Reply-To: <55E2124A.5040904@gmail.com> (Jules Richardson's message of "Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:12:58 -0500") References: <55E1DDEC.6090909@gmail.com> <030083E6-9DE2-49FD-A94F-9D7092833800@VMSSoftware.com> <55E2124A.5040904@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jules Richardson writes: > Yes, it's a desktop system. There's a news article about the FX series of machines in "Electronics and Power", January 1983, p89: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=5186775 "They will be IBM compatible, and will offer built-in local-area-networking capability. [...] the FX20, which is built around an 8088 microprocessor and 7220 graphics controller. [...] The operating system will be CP/M-86 [...] A utility version (FX21) of the computer will be brought out for the OEM market, and the model FX30 will incorporate integral Winchester hard disk." And there's an April 1983 review of the FX20 in Which Micro: https://archive.org/stream/whichmicro-1983-04/WhichMicro-1983-04#page/n43 They produced an AT clone called the FX100 a couple of years later: https://archive.org/stream/BYTE_Vol_10-09_1985-09_10th_Anniversary_Issue#page/n11 So I'd guess the FX31 was an OEM version with a hard disk... except that the one in the auction Steve pointed to has a label on the back saying the network ports are different from the FX20/30/50, so perhaps it was a later revision of the FX30? Bill Bostock was the Technical Director of Future Computers Ltd. at that point, and his CV includes "Developed Future Computer PC", so he'd probably be the person to ask for more details: https://uk.linkedin.com/pub/bill-bostock/17/9a4/42 Thanks, -- Adam Sampson From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Aug 30 10:45:47 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 08:45:47 -0700 Subject: MEM11 Status Update In-Reply-To: References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <55E3252B.20508@shiresoft.com> On 8/30/15 12:50 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Guy Sotomayor Sent: Sunday, > August 30, 2015 7:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts Subject: MEM11 Status Update > [... snip ...] > The biggest piece of work remaining on the emulator will be emulating the > Unibus interface. The work here will mainly to create a means to script > various Unibus transactions. > > However, before doing that, I'll be testing out the boot loader code and > the configuration firmware since none of that is dependent upon the > existence of functional Unibus hardware. > > TTFN - Guy > > ------------ > Guy, > as you have sort-of all possible UNIBUS transactions because > of the devices supported by the MEM11, I guess there is still > so work to do ;-) > One question came to my mind. > Suppose I manage to "crash" the board in such a bad way that > it does not start up anymore. Is there a jumper to force it to > execute a "golden boot"? That is, load a minimal "kernel" to > bring the MEM11 back to life to reload the bootloader and > firmware? > Shipping a dead MEM11 back to the Creator inside USA is > OK, but from Europe etc. might get costly. And Customs > probably wants to put tax on it when shipped back from you. > Yea, I'm trying to avoid having folks to send stuff back to me. The FRAM map that I'm currently working with has locations for 5 complete firmware images. The bootloader and Config Mode firmware all have support for this. Here's what they are for: - 2 sets of Config Mode images. This allows for downloading a new image while still keeping the previous one around. - 2 sets of Run Mode images. This allows for downloading a new image while still keeping the previous one around. - a "safe" Config Mode image. This image will be used when the jumpers are set to "safe" mode or the boot loader determines that the selected image isn't bootable. This image is *not* writable by the MEM11 firmware. I *may* decide to physically write protect it (the FRAM allows me to write protect sections). I'm seriously contemplating putting something in the cold boot code (initial J1 RAM contents) that allows for downloading image contents into FRAM. This would help me out when I'm bringing up an individual board for the first time (ie manufacturing). It would also allow for recovery if the safe boot image became corrupted for some reason. I'm hoping that with all of the above, the only time a board would have to be shipped back to me would be in the case of a HW failure. TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Aug 30 10:55:08 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 08:55:08 -0700 Subject: MEM11 Status Update In-Reply-To: <55E3252B.20508@shiresoft.com> References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com> <55E3252B.20508@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <55E3275C.8090402@shiresoft.com> On 8/30/15 8:45 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > On 8/30/15 12:50 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Guy Sotomayor Sent: Sunday, >> August 30, 2015 7:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and >> Off-Topic Posts Subject: MEM11 Status Update >> [... snip ...] >> The biggest piece of work remaining on the emulator will be emulating >> the >> Unibus interface. The work here will mainly to create a means to script >> various Unibus transactions. >> >> However, before doing that, I'll be testing out the boot loader code and >> the configuration firmware since none of that is dependent upon the >> existence of functional Unibus hardware. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> ------------ >> Guy, >> as you have sort-of all possible UNIBUS transactions because >> of the devices supported by the MEM11, I guess there is still >> so work to do ;-) >> One question came to my mind. >> Suppose I manage to "crash" the board in such a bad way that >> it does not start up anymore. Is there a jumper to force it to >> execute a "golden boot"? That is, load a minimal "kernel" to >> bring the MEM11 back to life to reload the bootloader and >> firmware? >> Shipping a dead MEM11 back to the Creator inside USA is >> OK, but from Europe etc. might get costly. And Customs >> probably wants to put tax on it when shipped back from you. >> > > Yea, I'm trying to avoid having folks to send stuff back to me. > > The FRAM map that I'm currently working with has locations > for 5 complete firmware images. The bootloader and Config > Mode firmware all have support for this. Here's what they are for: > - 2 sets of Config Mode images. This allows for downloading > a new image while still keeping the previous one around. > - 2 sets of Run Mode images. This allows for downloading > a new image while still keeping the previous one around. > - a "safe" Config Mode image. This image will be used when > the jumpers are set to "safe" mode or the boot loader > determines that the selected image isn't bootable. This > image is *not* writable by the MEM11 firmware. I *may* > decide to physically write protect it (the FRAM allows me to > write protect sections). > > I'm seriously contemplating putting something in the cold boot > code (initial J1 RAM contents) that allows for downloading > image contents into FRAM. This would help me out when I'm > bringing up an individual board for the first time (ie manufacturing). > It would also allow for recovery if the safe boot image became > corrupted for some reason. > > I'm hoping that with all of the above, the only time a board would > have to be shipped back to me would be in the case of a HW failure. > I also forgot to mention that the cold boot code is contained within the FPGA bitstream. So if the cold boot code is corrupted, the FPGA probably won't be programmed properly. However, the FPGA bitstream is located in its own flash part which is not writable/accessable by the firmware. It's only accessible through JTAG. There will be a header on the board since I won't have the flash parts pre-programmed and it also allows me to update the FPGA bitstream after the board has been built. So, if the cold boot code doesn't run, I'd consider that a hardware failure that would require the board to be sent back. I'm hoping that doesn't happen too often. ;-) TTFN - Guy From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 30 11:47:33 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 11:47:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: > On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Tothwolf wrote: > >> IBM had special machines to position and thread them. >> http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf > > Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. Looking at it, the machines are > extremely complex, but I am sure they could be reproduced, albeit at a > probably prohibitive cost... > .. I have marked for later reading... Something else I forgot to mention, is that on page 8 in that pdf file, they mention initially using 60/40 tin-lead alloy solder for the enamel wire to the core plane terminals. On page 9, they describe switching to 20/80 tin-lead so the solder would dissolve less copper from the enamel wire. If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Aug 30 12:18:30 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 13:18:30 -0400 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <058d01d0e327$c2837850$478a68f0$@gmail.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <11032AA2-89EE-48FC-9BDA-14726DDA0374@comcast.net> <058d01d0e327$c2837850$478a68f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 30, 2015, at 9:28 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> ... >> Interesting. I remember learning about the processes DEC used. No fancy >> machines, just a flat plate jig with slots to hold the cores in their > correct >> position, and nimble-fingered Oriental ladies to thread the wire through > the >> core planes by hand. Seemed sensible to me; that is the process I was >> thinking about for this case. >> >> paul > > Surely DEC used machine threaded cores later on. There is a 16k (I think) > DEC board in the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester that must be > machine woven as you can't see the individual cores without heavy > magnification... Perhaps. But I never heard of core threading machines until today. Just because you can't see the cores without magnifiers doesn't mean this couldn't be done by hand. It's amazing what trained hands can do. paul From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 12:34:36 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 12:34:36 -0500 Subject: Future Computers FX31 In-Reply-To: References: <55E1DDEC.6090909@gmail.com> <030083E6-9DE2-49FD-A94F-9D7092833800@VMSSoftware.com> , <55E2124A.5040904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55E33EAC.30107@gmail.com> On 08/29/2015 04:10 PM, Steve Hunt wrote: > I'm guessing this is it: > > http://www.sekaimon.com/i361201143538 > > Scroll down to find the images of a desktop unit. The pics look just > like an FX31 that was advertised on ebay.co.uk earlier on this year. Yes, that's the critter! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 12:37:25 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 12:37:25 -0500 Subject: Future Computers FX31 In-Reply-To: References: <55E1DDEC.6090909@gmail.com> <030083E6-9DE2-49FD-A94F-9D7092833800@VMSSoftware.com> <55E2124A.5040904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55E33F55.3050005@gmail.com> On 08/30/2015 08:54 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > Jules Richardson writes: > >> Yes, it's a desktop system. > > There's a news article about the FX series of machines in "Electronics > and Power", January 1983, p89: Thanks for all the info - I've passed it on to the guy who has the machine. He's going to move the hard disk and controller card to a different machine and see if it seems healthy, and if so he'll try hooking a regular PC keyboard up - fingers crossed that it's compatible (it looks like the original system's keyboard would have had some extra keys, but hopefully the ones that match a standard PC keyboard share the same scan codes) cheers Jules From jason at textfiles.com Sun Aug 30 12:42:58 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 13:42:58 -0400 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: <55E2C946.1060406@update.uu.se> References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <55E2C946.1060406@update.uu.se> Message-ID: There are some really, really, really pedantic Atari people who may correct you on some of the details. Regardless, this is an extraordinarily silly situation, akin to selling cut up squares of blankets from hotel rooms The Beatles stayed in. I don't think it's wise to derive any conclusion or insight into the whole situation. As for authenticity, assume every single one is fake unless you particularly dug it out of the earth. On Aug 30, 2015 5:13 AM, "Johnny Billquist" wrote: > On 2015-08-30 03:48, drlegendre . wrote: > >> Have the prices for 2600 E.T. carts climbed over the years, or is these >> buyers paying a premium to own a "Genuine landfill ATARI E.T. game, >> complete with certificate of authenticity" etc.? >> >> Thing is, the article mentions only a few hundred carts. Rumor had it that >> many thousands of carts were dumped, and realistically, such an operation >> would never have been worth the while to dispose of only a few hundred, or >> maybe a couple thousand carts. >> >> Volumes like that could easily be crushed & ground-up. No need to drag >> equipment out to the middle of the desert, just to dump a few hundred >> pounds of junk. >> > > They (Atari) dumped/crushed approximately 700.000 games in the landfill. > They (interested people) recently excavated a small part, and recovered a > few hundred games. This is not related to how many were in there. Much was > rubble, and most was not excavated. > It was decided to auction off some of the games recovered to benefit the > local town in Mexico, if I remember right. > > Johnny > > >> On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Lyle Bickley >> wrote: >> >> I was surprised to see the average cart price to be over $120! >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/29/sales-unearthed-atari-games-total-more-than-100000/?intcmp=hpbt4 >>> >>> Lyle >>> -- >>> Lyle Bickley >>> Bickley Consulting West Inc. >>> http://bickleywest.com >>> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" >>> >>> > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 12:50:59 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 13:50:59 -0400 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <55E2C946.1060406@update.uu.se> Message-ID: what do you think the JOLT that the original Atari 2600 prototype was made from would sell for? On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Jason Scott wrote: > There are some really, really, really pedantic Atari people who may correct > you on some of the details. Regardless, this is an extraordinarily silly > situation, akin to selling cut up squares of blankets from hotel rooms The > Beatles stayed in. I don't think it's wise to derive any conclusion or > insight into the whole situation. > > As for authenticity, assume every single one is fake unless you > particularly dug it out of the earth. > On Aug 30, 2015 5:13 AM, "Johnny Billquist" wrote: > > > On 2015-08-30 03:48, drlegendre . wrote: > > > >> Have the prices for 2600 E.T. carts climbed over the years, or is these > >> buyers paying a premium to own a "Genuine landfill ATARI E.T. game, > >> complete with certificate of authenticity" etc.? > >> > >> Thing is, the article mentions only a few hundred carts. Rumor had it > that > >> many thousands of carts were dumped, and realistically, such an > operation > >> would never have been worth the while to dispose of only a few hundred, > or > >> maybe a couple thousand carts. > >> > >> Volumes like that could easily be crushed & ground-up. No need to drag > >> equipment out to the middle of the desert, just to dump a few hundred > >> pounds of junk. > >> > > > > They (Atari) dumped/crushed approximately 700.000 games in the landfill. > > They (interested people) recently excavated a small part, and recovered a > > few hundred games. This is not related to how many were in there. Much > was > > rubble, and most was not excavated. > > It was decided to auction off some of the games recovered to benefit the > > local town in Mexico, if I remember right. > > > > Johnny > > > > > >> On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Lyle Bickley > > >> wrote: > >> > >> I was surprised to see the average cart price to be over $120! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/29/sales-unearthed-atari-games-total-more-than-100000/?intcmp=hpbt4 > >>> > >>> Lyle > >>> -- > >>> Lyle Bickley > >>> Bickley Consulting West Inc. > >>> http://bickleywest.com > >>> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > >>> > >>> > > > > -- > > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > > || on a psychedelic trip > > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 12:53:56 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 12:53:56 -0500 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55E34334.6010800@gmail.com> On 08/29/2015 03:32 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> >>> ... >> >> I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate >> "modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked >> similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally >> "falling apart" and was not repairable. > > I sure have a hard time fathoming any of this. Why? Maybe attaching new bits of wire to the dissolved ends wasn't possible - i.e. the existing memory couldn't be repaired - and there simply wasn't the time/resources/money/expertise to rebuild it from scratch. Much better to replace it *for now* with a more modern part, such that the rest of the machine could be shown working, and it doesn't rule out the possibility of a period fix at a later date. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 30 12:55:53 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 10:55:53 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I > think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly > a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best > choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would > greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage. Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative? The excuse of "that's too small to work on" seems a bit peculiar-sounding, particularly from people who are used to working by hand fine-pitch QFPs with 0.050" lead centers (and smaller). In the range of core sizes, 1620 cores weren't particularly tiny, compared to, say, CDC 7600 SCM core. So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread? That might be a bit daunting from a human-hour standpoint. I'll wager that 120K cores wasn't even a day's output for outfits like Fabritek. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 12:58:06 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 11:58:06 -0600 Subject: Area 51 - was Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620) In-Reply-To: <55E1FAC9.5030005@telegraphics.com.au> References: <55DFCA40.4020404@charter.net> <1724081856.2416385.1440753280985.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E050E5.8090705@jetnet.ab.ca> <55E0D005.4050803@charter.net> <55E0E74E.8020400@jetnet.ab.ca> <55E1FAC9.5030005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: I wrote: > Don't bother. There's nothing interesting in Area 51 any more; due to > all the publicity Area 51 has gotten, they've long since moved all the > good stuff to Area 52, which still has a low profile. On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 12:32 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > I know you're just being witty, but in fact it still seems quite active: > http://ur1.ca/nloay They have to keep doing something at least slightly interesting at Area 51 to maintain the cover, so everyone doesn't go looking for the real stuff at Area 52. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 13:08:20 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 13:08:20 -0500 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <55E0957F.5000305@snarc.net> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> <55E0957F.5000305@snarc.net> Message-ID: <55E34694.6000803@gmail.com> On 08/28/2015 12:08 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > We're thinking about building that kind of "deyellowing station" in the > MARCH warehouse. Hmm, single UV lamp, couple of stepper motors and a couple of circular tracks, one set at right angles to the other - plus a few misc. bits and pieces? ;-) I'm actually curious whether that would work - I've no idea if the reaction tails off over time, regardless of the presence of UV, which would mean that the lamp light would have to sweep quite fast across the target object in order to provide uniform cover. J. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Aug 30 13:15:03 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 14:15:03 -0400 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> > On Aug 30, 2015, at 1:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I >> think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly >> a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best >> choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would >> greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage. > > Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative? That's what the IBM IEEE article mentions. I'm still a bit puzzled by the dissolving of copper wire by conventional solder. The wire used in core memories is thin, but not outrageously so by the standards of, say, Litz wire, and that is soldered routinely. > ... > So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread? That might be a bit daunting from a human-hour standpoint. I'll wager that 120K cores wasn't even a day's output for outfits like Fabritek. Those cores weren't threaded one by one. You'd start by setting the cores into a holding jig, which positions them correctly. Then you thread wire from edge to edge. The article mentions a needle with the wire welded to its end; that makes sense because the copper wire is unlikely to be stiff enough. So the number of individual threading operations is 3-4x the square root of the core plane size. For example, on a 4k core plane, it would be 200 steps, give or take. (A bit more on a CDC 6000 series core plane with its peculiar 5 wire architecture.) paul From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 30 13:34:38 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 11:34:38 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55E34CBE.5040204@sydex.com> On 08/30/2015 11:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread? That might be a bit > daunting from a human-hour standpoint. I'll wager that 120K cores > wasn't even a day's output for outfits like Fabritek. > > Those cores weren't threaded one by one. You'd start by setting the > cores into a holding jig, which positions them correctly. Then you > thread wire from edge to edge. The article mentions a needle with > the wire welded to its end; that makes sense because the copper wire > is unlikely to be stiff enough. So the number of individual > threading operations is 3-4x the square root of the core plane size. > For example, on a 4k core plane, it would be 200 steps, give or take. > (A bit more on a CDC 6000 series core plane with its peculiar 5 wire > architecture.) I've seen the archival photos. Still, the possibility of missing or damaging a single core was always there. I wonder what the rejection rate was. I have heard of machine-fabricated core as well, but I thought that it only applied to larger, slower bulk core store. One can certainly understand why plated-wire or thin-film technologies were attractive. Sigh. Another lost manual art. I can remember during the 70s that the hot thing was to learn IC layout--the wives of a number of co-workers were going to night courses for that. --Chuck From cctalk at fahimi.net Sun Aug 30 13:41:23 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 11:41:23 -0700 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> > > How might a collector discern a "landfill" E.T. cart from any other > E.T. > cat that some snarky guy buried in the clay of his back forty? Not that I am expert or anything but my understanding is that the ET cart is extremely rare to begin with. In fact the landfill collection is the largest supply of the cart to be injected into the market. With that in mind it would seem it would be more valuable to have a cart that was originally bought in the store and not found in the landfill as it would be even more rare. Just my worthless two cents ;) -Ali From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 30 01:36:46 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 06:36:46 +0000 Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I am trying to identify why my IBM 5151 display has no picture when > connected to a normal MDA card in a IBM PC 5150. So armed with an > oscilloscope, digital multi-meter and the SAMS Computerfacts for it I > started to investigate. First, the card does send out signal and that > signal does reach the board inside the monitor. I checked the power > part of the circuit, all diodes and the transistor check fine. I > probed some of the vertical and horizontal transistors and there is a > signal there too. Then on the video board both TR19 and TR20 have on > their collector and emitter (respectively) a signal (95Khz). What else > can possibly be wrong? Do you mean no picture or no raster? To me the 'picture' is the video modulation (that makes different bits of the screen light or dark). If you turn up the brightness and contrast controls do you get any illumination on the screen? I am going to assume you don't, since that is the more common problem. First check the internal 12V (or so) supply. Is that present and correct. Note it mght be low due to an overload somewhere else in the monitor, for example flyback transformer problems. Is the CRT heater glowing (can you see an orange glow from the end of the CRT neck)? If not, and if the 12V supply is there, then check the CRT and its socket. There may be a series resistor too, check that. Now check the CRT voltages. If you have an EHT meter, check the final anode voltage (on the rubber connector on the CRT flare). Expect about 10-12kV here. The CRT pins (from memory) are as follows (All voltages guessed wrt ground): 1: Control grid (10's of V, +ve or -ve) 2: Cathode (10's of V +ve) 3,4 : heater. One is ground, expect 12V or so on the other 5: Control grid (see pin 1) 6,7 : I call them anodes, you call them grids :-). Expect a few hunded volts on each pin. What voltages do you measure? -tony From jim at deitygraveyard.com Sun Aug 30 02:38:50 2015 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 03:38:50 -0400 Subject: TSX Plus... In-Reply-To: References: <20140303201107.78bb62b2@asrock.bcwi.net> <20150216080812.742403a0@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Earl Evans wrote: > > Sorry guys, I dropped the ball on this. I've been doing a bunch of > > transitioning and ended up working on a number of other projects - and > > completely forgot about TSX. > > > > This discussion is prodding me to finish my half done website for TSX... > > > > I apologize for the huge delay... > > > > Lyle > > > > -- > > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > > http://bickleywest.com > > > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > > > Bump? > > I'm still quite interested in this (and if we can collect some other TSX > Plus software as mentioned by other list members). And I'm also still very interested in this. How is this project going? Jim From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 09:48:22 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 10:48:22 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: The team at the LCM sent is a listing of their Kaleidoscope program. We toggled it in and it runs great! You fiddle with the bottom two analog input knobs to find settings that will make patterns. You can watch it here: https://youtu.be/_KZG_kE-K-0 Two more days of debugging on the PDP-12 LINCtape controller didn't accomplish much. We now a lot more about what is not broken, but haven't found the intermittent problem with reading tapes. We reran the Tape Quickie and TAPE CONTROL TEST, PART 1 and 2 to make sure that the controller was still OK. We tried reformatting LINCtapes on the right drive in the TU56. It sometimes worked OK, sometimes not. It doesn't seem to matter what tape we use, the intermittent behavior is the same. A LINCtape that formatted OK worked fine on the Tape Data diagnostic for quite a while and then halted, so the TC12 and the TU56 are mostly working. We noticed that if we were searching for a tape block on the right drive with the left drive OFF, it usually worked OK. With the left drive in LOCAL or REMOTE the right drive had trouble finding blocks. The only change between OFF and LOCAL & REMOTE is that the power to the motors is enabled. The motor power supply voltages looked OK in OFF and LOCAL & REMOTE. We swapped lots of TU56 boards between the left and right drives and a spare TU56, but didn't find a problem yet. Since we replaced the tape head on the right drive we speculated that we introduced a tape head skew problem that was causing problems when reading tapes created on other drives. The left drive was untouched, so we thought that one might work better. The left motor for the left drive in the TU56 was sticking so much that it would not turn under its own power. We suspected bad bearings, so that should be an easy mechanical fix. When we removed the motors we found that the motor shafts turned freely. We found that there is a pair of bushings and spring on the motor shaft that take up the play and make the tape alignment more accurate. The lubricant on bushings and shaft had dried out and was sticky, making it difficult to rotate the shaft. Unfortunately after cleaning and reassembly we found that the left drive would barely read a tape. Maybe this is related to the previous problem? Warren saw evidence on the logic analyzer traces of the TC12 that might indicate a timing problem in the TC12 LINCtape controller. Next Friday we will check the TC12 and TU56 timing adjustments. -- Michael Thompson From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Aug 30 14:15:09 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 15:15:09 -0400 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55E34CBE.5040204@sydex.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> <55E34CBE.5040204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3FCE1EC6-3DAE-4DE9-A4E5-48E177C7B348@comcast.net> > On Aug 30, 2015, at 2:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ... > I have heard of machine-fabricated core as well, but I thought that it only applied to larger, slower bulk core store. One can certainly understand why plated-wire or thin-film technologies were attractive. Perhaps CDC's ECS? 125k (funny number that) words per memory bank. > Sigh. Another lost manual art. I can remember during the 70s that the hot thing was to learn IC layout--the wives of a number of co-workers were going to night courses for that. I've never done that, though I have Carver Mead's textbook that describes how it is done. I did do a PC board layout with red and blue tape on a light table, in 1977. paul From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 14:21:39 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 14:21:39 -0500 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> Message-ID: Ali, On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Ali wrote: > > > > How might a collector discern a "landfill" E.T. cart from any other > > E.T. > > cat that some snarky guy buried in the clay of his back forty? > > Not that I am expert or anything but my understanding is that the ET cart > is extremely rare to begin with. In fact the landfill collection is the > largest supply of the cart to be injected into the market. A quick search of eBay would correct your 'understanding'. There are dozens of copies for sale, many with boxes and manuals. They start at about $5.00. The game is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's a joke, possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with Superman 64 for N64. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 30 15:04:59 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 13:04:59 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <3FCE1EC6-3DAE-4DE9-A4E5-48E177C7B348@comcast.net> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> <55E34CBE.5040204@sydex.com> <3FCE1EC6-3DAE-4DE9-A4E5-48E177C7B348@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55E361EB.6030406@sydex.com> On 08/30/2015 12:15 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Perhaps CDC's ECS? 125k (funny number that) words per memory bank. Possibly. We used a lot of it in SSD. 4MW installations were not uncommon, shared among 2-4 mainframes. As I recall, core errors were not treated the same way as CM--part of deadstart was "flawing" ECS and creating a map of flawed areas, much as one might do with a disk. It also had priority in CM access, so if you were doing a bunch of ECS transfers, you could see the DSD display dim and flicker. 1LT (long stranger tape driver) had conniptions with data underrun errors when ECS transfers were going on. > I've never done that, though I have Carver Mead's textbook that > describes how it is done. I did do a PC board layout with red and > blue tape on a light table, in 1977. This was Silicon Valley, circa 1978 or so. A bunch of Intel people put together a training course (not Intel-sponsored) for people who wanted to learn IC design. PCB design was also a specialty, what with mylar film, tape, white-out and India ink and, of course, an X-acto knife. The best people at this seemed to be from the Far East. Done probably at 4X scale, then reduced for production. --Chuck From cctalk at fahimi.net Sun Aug 30 15:19:53 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 13:19:53 -0700 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> Message-ID: <016601d0e361$3c18b750$b44a25f0$@net> > A quick search of eBay would correct your 'understanding'. There are > dozens of copies for sale, many with boxes and manuals. They start at > about $5.00. I stand corrected. > > The game is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's a > joke, possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with > Superman 64 for N64. I could have sworn that prior to the "dig" I read a number of articles indicating that this was one of the reasons for the dig i.e. The game was so horrible Atari tried to destroy any and all evidence of it by burying it so only a few copies remained. However, as the game is apparently readily available I would say both editions are worthless or to be more precise of low monetary value. But as the old saying goes "one man's junk..." :) -Ali From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Aug 30 15:29:59 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 22:29:59 +0200 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: <016601d0e361$3c18b750$b44a25f0$@net> References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> <016601d0e361$3c18b750$b44a25f0$@net> Message-ID: <55E367C7.1010304@update.uu.se> On 2015-08-30 22:19, Ali wrote: >> A quick search of eBay would correct your 'understanding'. There are >> dozens of copies for sale, many with boxes and manuals. They start at >> about $5.00. > > I stand corrected. :-) >> The game is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's a >> joke, possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with >> Superman 64 for N64. > > I could have sworn that prior to the "dig" I read a number of articles indicating that this was one of the reasons for the dig i.e. The game was so horrible Atari tried to destroy any and all evidence of it by burying it so only a few copies remained. Yes. This was a reason for the dig. > However, as the game is apparently readily available I would say both editions are worthless or to be more precise of low monetary value. But as the old saying goes "one man's junk..." :) Records state that Atari manufactured 5 million copies, but "only" sold 1.5 million... So it was a big loss for the company, but that do not mean that it is uncommon. Even more spectacular was Pac-Mac, of which they manufactures 12 million copies (they had only sold 10 millions consoles). 7 million sold meant another 5 million unsold copies... Lots of fun. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_video_game_burial for more. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Aug 30 16:00:45 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 16:00:45 -0500 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55E361EB.6030406@sydex.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> <55E34CBE.5040204@sydex.com> <3FCE1EC6-3DAE-4DE9-A4E5-48E177C7B348@comcast.net> <55E361EB.6030406@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55E36EFD.50808@pico-systems.com> On 08/30/2015 03:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > PCB design was also a specialty, what with mylar film, > tape, white-out and India ink and, of course, an X-acto > knife. The best people at this seemed to be from the Far > East. Done probably at 4X scale, then reduced for > production. > Yup, back in the 70's I did a bunch of PCB design using mylar and black crepe tape, and pre-made donuts and IC pads. UGH!!! I still have a bunch of those sitting in folders. I made my own reduction camera to bring the artwork down to 1:1 size. Then, in 1976 or so, I got my first CAD system, and printed everything out on plotters with India ink and Rapidograph pens on frosted Mylar. If the pen didn't clog up or run dry before the print was finished, it worked pretty well, and there were Litho houses that mostly did ad copy that would do the reduction for a couple $. I hacked a fiber optic light pen onto a Calcomp plotter and made some artwork directly onto film, and then in 1996 I built a laser photoplotter that cranks out 1000x1000 DPI images on red-sensitive film at 0.6 inches/minute. It can do up to 20 x 24" films, but I've never gone over about one foot square. The trick is, it has to be VERY accurate to line up with existing PC boards. I mostly use it to make solder paste stencils, now, but originally made it for PC board master artwork. Jon From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 30 16:45:40 2015 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 17:45:40 -0400 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: <55E367C7.1010304@update.uu.se> References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> <016601d0e361$3c18b750$b44a25f0$@net> <55E367C7.1010304@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <7A407E20002A4C0CBF0121FC448212D1@TeoPC> Even the unsold copies ended up getting purchased at the Atari liquidation firesale and there are people still selling them NIB cheap. The ET cart can be had for $2 (one of the cheapest) http://www.atari2600.com/ccp7/ecom-prodshow/ET-The-Extra-Terrestrial-PROD375.html -----Original Message----- From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 4:29 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 On 2015-08-30 22:19, Ali wrote: >> A quick search of eBay would correct your 'understanding'. There are >> dozens of copies for sale, many with boxes and manuals. They start at >> about $5.00. > > I stand corrected. :-) >> The game is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's a >> joke, possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with >> Superman 64 for N64. > > I could have sworn that prior to the "dig" I read a number of articles > indicating that this was one of the reasons for the dig i.e. The game was > so horrible Atari tried to destroy any and all evidence of it by burying > it so only a few copies remained. Yes. This was a reason for the dig. > However, as the game is apparently readily available I would say both > editions are worthless or to be more precise of low monetary value. But as > the old saying goes "one man's junk..." :) Records state that Atari manufactured 5 million copies, but "only" sold 1.5 million... So it was a big loss for the company, but that do not mean that it is uncommon. Even more spectacular was Pac-Mac, of which they manufactures 12 million copies (they had only sold 10 millions consoles). 7 million sold meant another 5 million unsold copies... Lots of fun. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_video_game_burial for more. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From spc at conman.org Sun Aug 30 16:54:06 2015 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 17:54:06 -0400 Subject: E.T. is not the worse game for the Atari 2600 (was Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100, 000) In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> Message-ID: <20150830215406.GA3662@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great drlegendre . once stated: > > The game [E.T.] is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's a joke, > possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with Superman 64 for > N64. I would think it depends upon your criteria for "worst video game ever." I mean, "Chase the Chuck Wagon" [1] or "Custer's Revenge" [2] could easily take the "worst video game ever" slot. E.T. actually had a plot (as E.T., collect parts to "phone home"). Also, given the story behind E.T., it's an incredible accomplishment in Atari 2600 programming---only five weeks to come up with an idea and get it programmed on a machine where you had to program the screen nearly pixel-by-pixel in about 4K of ROM (and 128 bytes of RAM). I think the main problem with the game is the pixel-perfect collision detection that makes it all too easy to fall into the pits. It can be fixed [3] but not with some addtional issues. -spc (It's certainly more complex than Adventure ... ) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chase_the_Chuck_Wagon [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custer%27s_Revenge [3] http://www.neocomputer.org/projects/et/ From jason at textfiles.com Sun Aug 30 17:10:09 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 18:10:09 -0400 Subject: E.T. is not the worse game for the Atari 2600 (was Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100, 000) In-Reply-To: <20150830215406.GA3662@brevard.conman.org> References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> <20150830215406.GA3662@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: Someone went through E.T. and fixed a lot of the bugs and oversights, releasing an improved version. It's playable here: https://archive.org/details/ET_Fixed_Final On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great drlegendre . once stated: > > > > The game [E.T.] is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's > a joke, > > possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with Superman 64 for > > N64. > > I would think it depends upon your criteria for "worst video game ever." > I mean, "Chase the Chuck Wagon" [1] or "Custer's Revenge" [2] could easily > take the "worst video game ever" slot. E.T. actually had a plot (as E.T., > collect parts to "phone home"). > > Also, given the story behind E.T., it's an incredible accomplishment in > Atari 2600 programming---only five weeks to come up with an idea and get it > programmed on a machine where you had to program the screen nearly > pixel-by-pixel in about 4K of ROM (and 128 bytes of RAM). > > I think the main problem with the game is the pixel-perfect collision > detection that makes it all too easy to fall into the pits. It can be > fixed > [3] but not with some addtional issues. > > -spc (It's certainly more complex than Adventure ... ) > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chase_the_Chuck_Wagon > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custer%27s_Revenge > > [3] http://www.neocomputer.org/projects/et/ > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 30 18:51:38 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 16:51:38 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <55E34694.6000803@gmail.com> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> <55E0957F.5000305@snarc.net> <55E34694.6000803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55E3970A.5080100@sydex.com> On 08/30/2015 11:08 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 08/28/2015 12:08 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> We're thinking about building that kind of "deyellowing station" in >> the MARCH warehouse. > > Hmm, single UV lamp, couple of stepper motors and a couple of > circular tracks, one set at right angles to the other - plus a few > misc. bits and pieces? ;-) I'd wager that a couple of T8 germicidal lamps (UVC) would do the trick pretty quickly, but they're pricey, unless you have a friend who runs a slaughterhouse or sewage treatment plant. Can be ordered through Home Depot. --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 30 19:16:28 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:16:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55E34CBE.5040204@sydex.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> <55E34CBE.5040204@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/30/2015 11:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread? That might be a bit >> daunting from a human-hour standpoint. I'll wager that 120K cores >> wasn't even a day's output for outfits like Fabritek. >> >> Those cores weren't threaded one by one. You'd start by setting the >> cores into a holding jig, which positions them correctly. Then you >> thread wire from edge to edge. The article mentions a needle with the >> wire welded to its end; that makes sense because the copper wire is >> unlikely to be stiff enough. So the number of individual threading >> operations is 3-4x the square root of the core plane size. For example, >> on a 4k core plane, it would be 200 steps, give or take. (A bit more on >> a CDC 6000 series core plane with its peculiar 5 wire architecture.) > > I've seen the archival photos. Still, the possibility of missing or > damaging a single core was always there. I wonder what the rejection > rate was. > > I have heard of machine-fabricated core as well, but I thought that it > only applied to larger, slower bulk core store. One can certainly > understand why plated-wire or thin-film technologies were attractive. > > Sigh. Another lost manual art. I can remember during the 70s that the > hot thing was to learn IC layout--the wives of a number of co-workers > were going to night courses for that. According to IBM's paper, extra cores were threaded initially and used to replace any cores that tested bad during assembly. Any extras were crushed after assembly to remove them. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 30 19:21:29 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:21:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I >> think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly >> a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best >> choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would >> greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage. > > Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative? Yes, if the terminals had been designed for that. The terminals on these would have been designed for soldering, so unless you wanted to replace all the existing terminals, it would probably be best to stick to soldering. Either a low-tin + copper or non-tin solder really should solve the problem anyway. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 30 19:32:50 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:32:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Aug 30, 2015, at 1:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote: >> >>> If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I >>> think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly a >>> more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best choice >>> for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would greatly >>> reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage. >> >> Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative? > > That's what the IBM IEEE article mentions. > > I'm still a bit puzzled by the dissolving of copper wire by conventional > solder. The wire used in core memories is thin, but not outrageously so > by the standards of, say, Litz wire, and that is soldered routinely. See the other paper I mentioned earlier in the thread: https://app.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1975_10_s370.pdf On page 5, they describe 0.0031" 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to 0.002" after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011" reduction is basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains the failures of the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620. Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now on. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 30 19:43:02 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 18:43:02 -0600 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55E3A316.1040208@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/30/2015 6:32 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On page 5, they describe 0.0031" 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to > 0.002" after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011" > reduction is basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains > the failures of the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620. > > Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of > thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now on. > But is that the case? Would not heat induced failure be the real case here as I suspect that a amp or two of current is flowing that now very thin thread of wire? Digging though the doc's and a little calculation clear this up. Ben. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 30 19:55:40 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:55:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <55E3970A.5080100@sydex.com> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> <55E0957F.5000305@snarc.net> <55E34694.6000803@gmail.com> <55E3970A.5080100@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/30/2015 11:08 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On 08/28/2015 12:08 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>> We're thinking about building that kind of "deyellowing station" in >>> the MARCH warehouse. >> >> Hmm, single UV lamp, couple of stepper motors and a couple of circular >> tracks, one set at right angles to the other - plus a few misc. bits >> and pieces? ;-) > > I'd wager that a couple of T8 germicidal lamps (UVC) would do the trick > pretty quickly, but they're pricey, unless you have a friend who runs a > slaughterhouse or sewage treatment plant. Can be ordered through Home > Depot. Wrong type of UV. You are mostly getting long wave UVA outdoors, so blacklight lamps would seem to be the correct (and MUCH safer) choice. When I looked at 24" T8 bi-pin blacklight lamps, they were going for about USD $10 per lamp. UVC germicidal lamps would also require an enclosure to protect the user from exposure to short wave UV. This isn't as necessary with long wave UVA (unless someone was going to be around it for long periods of time on a regular basis). From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 30 20:01:42 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 20:01:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55E3A316.1040208@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> <55E3A316.1040208@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, ben wrote: > On 8/30/2015 6:32 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> On page 5, they describe 0.0031" 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to >> 0.002" after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011" >> reduction is basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains >> the failures of the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620. >> >> Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of >> thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now >> on. > > But is that the case? Would not heat induced failure be the real case > here as I suspect that a amp or two of current is flowing that now very > thin thread of wire? Digging though the doc's and a little calculation > clear this up. My guess is that over time the thinned wires broke due to a combination of vibration and thermal fatigue. Vibration while transporting the system to CHM may well have been what ultimately caused them to break. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 20:09:21 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 20:09:21 -0500 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: <7A407E20002A4C0CBF0121FC448212D1@TeoPC> References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> <016601d0e361$3c18b750$b44a25f0$@net> <55E367C7.1010304@update.uu.se> <7A407E20002A4C0CBF0121FC448212D1@TeoPC> Message-ID: And speaking as one who played the game "back in the day", it +is+ as awful as claimed. The gameplay draws essentially nothing from the film's story, save a few obvious must-have elemetns such as a telephone and Reese's Pieces (which look like single-pixel glitches). The player, playing as E.T., is tasked with assembling parts of a "space-phone" - and the primary obstacle in his path is... THE TERRAIN Yes, the terrain. The gameworld is full of pitfall, some visible, some not quite so. When E.T. falls into a pit, which he does about every five seconds, he must escape by performing this ridiculous "levitation boogie" that consists of nothing more than a series of rapidfire L-R-L-R joystick moves. Then it's onto the next pit.. and the next.. and the next.. again, reminiscent of Superman 64 with it's endless "ride stages" of flying rings. Some amusement potential for kids under eight. Otherwise, frustrating, boring and downright depressing piece of work. On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 4:45 PM, TeoZ wrote: > Even the unsold copies ended up getting purchased at the Atari liquidation > firesale and there are people still selling them NIB cheap. The ET cart can > be had for $2 (one of the cheapest) > > http://www.atari2600.com/ccp7/ecom-prodshow/ET-The-Extra-Terrestrial-PROD375.html > > > > -----Original Message----- From: Johnny Billquist > Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 4:29 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 > > > On 2015-08-30 22:19, Ali wrote: > >> A quick search of eBay would correct your 'understanding'. There are >>> dozens of copies for sale, many with boxes and manuals. They start at >>> about $5.00. >>> >> >> I stand corrected. >> > > :-) > > The game is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's a >>> joke, possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with >>> Superman 64 for N64. >>> >> >> I could have sworn that prior to the "dig" I read a number of articles >> indicating that this was one of the reasons for the dig i.e. The game was >> so horrible Atari tried to destroy any and all evidence of it by burying it >> so only a few copies remained. >> > > Yes. This was a reason for the dig. > > However, as the game is apparently readily available I would say both >> editions are worthless or to be more precise of low monetary value. But as >> the old saying goes "one man's junk..." :) >> > > Records state that Atari manufactured 5 million copies, but "only" sold > 1.5 million... So it was a big loss for the company, but that do not > mean that it is uncommon. > Even more spectacular was Pac-Mac, of which they manufactures 12 million > copies (they had only sold 10 millions consoles). > 7 million sold meant another 5 million unsold copies... > > Lots of fun. > > See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_video_game_burial for more. > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 30 20:09:29 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 20:09:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Ali wrote: > >>> How might a collector discern a "landfill" E.T. cart from any other >>> E.T. cat that some snarky guy buried in the clay of his back forty? >> >> Not that I am expert or anything but my understanding is that the ET >> cart is extremely rare to begin with. In fact the landfill collection >> is the largest supply of the cart to be injected into the market. > > A quick search of eBay would correct your 'understanding'. There are > dozens of copies for sale, many with boxes and manuals. They start at > about $5.00. > > The game is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's a > joke, possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with Superman > 64 for N64. When I used to buy Atari stuff at resale shops to build my own collection (back in the early to mid 1990s when people were practically giving away 2600 stuff), ET seemed to be pretty common. It wasn't nearly as common as Pac-Man or Pitfall! or a pack-in game like Combat, but I saw them frequently. I gave/traded away quite a few copies of ET but kept at least one. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 30 20:13:15 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 18:13:15 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> <55E34CBE.5040204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55E3AA2B.8000901@sydex.com> On 08/30/2015 05:16 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > According to IBM's paper, extra cores were threaded initially and > used to replace any cores that tested bad during assembly. Any extras > were crushed after assembly to remove them. I suspect there were also extra rows after shipment as well. I seem to remember a magnet and a broomstick that got used to fish out remnants in the 7090 (oil bath) core units. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 30 20:17:46 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 18:17:46 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> <55E0957F.5000305@snarc.net> <55E34694.6000803@gmail.com> <55E3970A.5080100@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55E3AB3A.2020306@sydex.com> On 08/30/2015 05:55 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > Wrong type of UV. You are mostly getting long wave UVA outdoors, so > blacklight lamps would seem to be the correct (and MUCH safer) choice. > When I looked at 24" T8 bi-pin blacklight lamps, they were going for > about USD $10 per lamp. Oh, but there's that aitch-nu thing--I suspect that the UVC lamps would do the job very quickly. I recall that someone tried the de-yellowing process with UV LEDs and got nowhere fast. So probably UVB at a minimum. --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 30 20:52:00 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 20:52:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <55E3AB3A.2020306@sydex.com> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> <55E0957F.5000305@snarc.net> <55E34694.6000803@gmail.com> <55E3970A.5080100@sydex.com> <55E3AB3A.2020306@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/30/2015 05:55 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Wrong type of UV. You are mostly getting long wave UVA outdoors, so >> blacklight lamps would seem to be the correct (and MUCH safer) choice. >> When I looked at 24" T8 bi-pin blacklight lamps, they were going for >> about USD $10 per lamp. > > Oh, but there's that aitch-nu thing--I suspect that the UVC lamps would > do the job very quickly. I recall that someone tried the de-yellowing > process with UV LEDs and got nowhere fast. So probably UVB at a > minimum. Maybe...maybe not. I do know from experience that short wave UVC from germicidal lamps can photodegrade certain plastics, PVC in particular. UVC germicidal lamps can also cause serious eye damage in very short order. Even the really small UVC lamps used in an EPROM eraser are hazardous, which is why they have interlock switches that disable the lamps when open. You are going to get a _lot_ more UVA exposure than UVB outdoors, but who knows. You aren't going to get much UVC outdoors though. A typical T1-3/4 UV led doesn't put out anywhere near the energy that a bi-pin/fluorescent lamp does, so unless you had a large array of high output UV leds, I really wouldn't expect all that much from them. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 22:58:49 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 22:58:49 -0500 Subject: E.T. is not the worse game for the Atari 2600 (was Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100, 000) In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> <20150830215406.GA3662@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: I never said E.T. for Atari 2600 was the Worst Game Ever.. I put that in "quotes" because so many games have been granted that title, and logic dictates that there's no one, true "Worst Game Ever". Since you mentioned 'Chase the Chuckwagon' - have you ever played through Legend of Zelda - Twilight Princess? There's a hilarious chase-the-chuckwagon mini-game in there, that's frustrating as all hell - and I swear, it's gotta be an homage to the Atari game.. On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Jason Scott wrote: > Someone went through E.T. and fixed a lot of the bugs and oversights, > releasing an improved version. It's playable here: > > https://archive.org/details/ET_Fixed_Final > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > > It was thus said that the Great drlegendre . once stated: > > > > > > The game [E.T.] is very common, and generally considered worthless. > It's > > a joke, > > > possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with Superman 64 > for > > > N64. > > > > I would think it depends upon your criteria for "worst video game > ever." > > I mean, "Chase the Chuck Wagon" [1] or "Custer's Revenge" [2] could > easily > > take the "worst video game ever" slot. E.T. actually had a plot (as > E.T., > > collect parts to "phone home"). > > > > Also, given the story behind E.T., it's an incredible accomplishment in > > Atari 2600 programming---only five weeks to come up with an idea and get > it > > programmed on a machine where you had to program the screen nearly > > pixel-by-pixel in about 4K of ROM (and 128 bytes of RAM). > > > > I think the main problem with the game is the pixel-perfect collision > > detection that makes it all too easy to fall into the pits. It can be > > fixed > > [3] but not with some addtional issues. > > > > -spc (It's certainly more complex than Adventure ... ) > > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chase_the_Chuck_Wagon > > > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custer%27s_Revenge > > > > [3] http://www.neocomputer.org/projects/et/ > > > > > From vlad.stamate at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 15:22:36 2015 From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 16:22:36 -0400 Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70B1D8D9-FDDB-4FC6-930F-5ABBF7A2A01D@gmail.com> Hi, Thank you for answering, I appreciate your help. Answers inline below. > On Aug 30, 2015, at 2:36 AM, tony duell wrote: > > >> I am trying to identify why my IBM 5151 display has no picture when >> connected to a normal MDA card in a IBM PC 5150. So armed with an >> oscilloscope, digital multi-meter and the SAMS Computerfacts for it I >> started to investigate. First, the card does send out signal and that >> signal does reach the board inside the monitor. I checked the power >> part of the circuit, all diodes and the transistor check fine. I >> probed some of the vertical and horizontal transistors and there is a >> signal there too. Then on the video board both TR19 and TR20 have on >> their collector and emitter (respectively) a signal (95Khz). What else >> can possibly be wrong? > > Do you mean no picture or no raster? To me the 'picture' is the video > modulation (that makes different bits of the screen light or dark). If you > turn up the brightness and contrast controls do you get any illumination on > the screen? The screen is entirely black no matter what I do with brightness and contrast controls. > > I am going to assume you don't, since that is the more common problem. > > First check the internal 12V (or so) supply. Is that present and correct. Note > it mght be low due to an overload somewhere else in the monitor, for > example flyback transformer problems. I am getting 14V out of the transistor in the power supply. Voltages seem to check correct there according to the SAMS schematic. Except for one point earlier in the power supply that is supposed to be 25.9V but I get 28V. > > Is the CRT heater glowing (can you see an orange glow from the end of the > CRT neck)? If not, and if the 12V supply is there, then check the CRT and its > socket. There may be a series resistor too, check that. I see the orange glow. > > Now check the CRT voltages. If you have an EHT meter, check the final > anode voltage (on the rubber connector on the CRT flare). Expect > about 10-12kV here. I do not have a tool that can measure that high of a voltage. > > The CRT pins (from memory) are as follows (All voltages guessed wrt ground): > > 1: Control grid (10's of V, +ve or -ve) 225mV > 2: Cathode (10's of V +ve) 170mV > 3,4 : heater. One is ground, expect 12V or so on the other 3: 12V 4: Ground > 5: Control grid (see pin 1) 225mV > 6,7 : I call them anodes, you call them grids :-). Expect a few hunded volts on each pin. 6: 7.33V 7: 10.29V > > What voltages do you measure? I checked all those with respect to ground ( pin 4). Regards, Vlad. > > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 30 15:29:59 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 20:29:59 +0000 Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151 In-Reply-To: <70B1D8D9-FDDB-4FC6-930F-5ABBF7A2A01D@gmail.com> References: , <70B1D8D9-FDDB-4FC6-930F-5ABBF7A2A01D@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > Do you mean no picture or no raster? To me the 'picture' is the video > > modulation (that makes different bits of the screen light or dark). If you > > turn up the brightness and contrast controls do you get any illumination on > > the screen? > The screen is entirely black no matter what I do with brightness and contrast controls. OK.... Given the CRT voltages you give later, I would expect that. > > The CRT pins (from memory) are as follows (All voltages guessed wrt ground): > > > > 1: Control grid (10's of V, +ve or -ve) > 225mV > > 2: Cathode (10's of V +ve) > 170mV > > 3,4 : heater. One is ground, expect 12V or so on the other > 3 : 12V > 4: Ground > > 5: Control grid (see pin 1) > 225mV > > 6,7 : I call them anodes, you call them grids :-). Expect a few hunded volts on each pin. > 6: 7.33V > 7: 10.29V > > > > What voltages do you measure? > I checked all those with respect to ground ( pin 4). Well, all the electrode votlages are very low. They all come from the flyback transformer in the horizontal output stage. Now the 5151 is unusual in that it doesn't have a horizontal oscillator. The horizontal signal from the MDA card goes straight to the horizontal driver which, IIRC, is transformer coupled to the horizontal output transistor. So, start by checking you have a horizontal signal from the MDA card. I think it's pin 8 of the DE9, if not it's pin 9, the other being the vertical sync signal. If that's present and correct check through the driver and output stages, there are not that many components. If it is transformer coupled, then I have had those driver transformers go open-circuit in monitors -- not in the 5151 yet, but it could happen. -tony Regards, Vlad. > > -tony From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Sun Aug 30 17:54:28 2015 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 22:54:28 +0000 Subject: APL\360 Message-ID: Probably old news to some, but I just ran into this 3 year old article. Gotta dust off your Hercules: http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-apl-programming-language-source-code/ And also http://wotho.ethz.ch/mvt4apl-2.00/ paul From vlad.stamate at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 18:36:26 2015 From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:36:26 -0400 Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151 In-Reply-To: References: <70B1D8D9-FDDB-4FC6-930F-5ABBF7A2A01D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Tony, I have checked the horizontal signal from the MDA using an oscilloscope. It is pin 8 like you mentioned. I get a regular 18KHz or so signal out of that. Pin 9 gives the vertical signal at roughly 50Hz. Then I traced that on the board and it seems ok (as in I can see the 18Khz signal on other components). One thing that I noticed is that Pin 6 of the CRT neck comes pretty much from one of the pins of the flyback transformer (via some diodes and resistors). So I checked the voltage on the pins of the flyback transformer itself, so here is how it looks 1 and 8 - Not connected 2 and 4 (I think those are inputs) - 15V 3 - GND 5 - 15V (this one goes to pin 6 of the video board where you mentioned it should be hundreds of volts) 6 and 7 - about 200mV. Does that look correct to you? Regards, Vlad. On 30 August 2015 at 16:29, tony duell wrote: > >> > Do you mean no picture or no raster? To me the 'picture' is the video >> > modulation (that makes different bits of the screen light or dark). If you >> > turn up the brightness and contrast controls do you get any illumination on >> > the screen? >> The screen is entirely black no matter what I do with brightness and contrast controls. > > OK.... Given the CRT voltages you give later, I would expect that. > >> > The CRT pins (from memory) are as follows (All voltages guessed wrt ground): >> > >> > 1: Control grid (10's of V, +ve or -ve) >> 225mV >> > 2: Cathode (10's of V +ve) >> 170mV >> > 3,4 : heater. One is ground, expect 12V or so on the other >> 3 : 12V >> 4: Ground >> > 5: Control grid (see pin 1) >> 225mV >> > 6,7 : I call them anodes, you call them grids :-). Expect a few hunded volts on each pin. >> 6: 7.33V >> 7: 10.29V >> > >> > What voltages do you measure? >> I checked all those with respect to ground ( pin 4). > > Well, all the electrode votlages are very low. > > They all come from the flyback transformer in the horizontal output stage. Now the 5151 is > unusual in that it doesn't have a horizontal oscillator. The horizontal signal from the MDA > card goes straight to the horizontal driver which, IIRC, is transformer coupled to the > horizontal output transistor. > > So, start by checking you have a horizontal signal from the MDA card. I think it's pin 8 of > the DE9, if not it's pin 9, the other being the vertical sync signal. If that's present and correct > check through the driver and output stages, there are not that many components. > > If it is transformer coupled, then I have had those driver transformers go open-circuit in > monitors -- not in the 5151 yet, but it could happen. > > -tony > > > > Regards, > Vlad. >> >> -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 02:59:42 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 08:59:42 +0100 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55E3A316.1040208@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> <55E3A316.1040208@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00bc01d0e3c2$fe9829d0$fbc87d70$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben > Sent: 31 August 2015 01:43 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: IBM 1620 > > On 8/30/2015 6:32 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > > > On page 5, they describe 0.0031" 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to > > 0.002" after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011" > > reduction is basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains > > the failures of the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620. > > > > Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of > > thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now on. > > > But is that the case? Would not heat induced failure be the real case here as I > suspect that a amp or two of current is flowing that now very thin thread of > wire? Digging though the doc's and a little calculation clear this up. > Ben. > > I seem to remember that 1620 core runs warm, and you have to wait for it to get warm before the machine comes on-line ... see last paragraph http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/ebjoew/IBM_1620_Core_Memory.html Dave Wade From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 31 01:26:35 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 06:26:35 +0000 Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151 In-Reply-To: References: <70B1D8D9-FDDB-4FC6-930F-5ABBF7A2A01D@gmail.com> , Message-ID: > Hi Tony, > > I have checked the horizontal signal from the MDA using an > oscilloscope. It is pin 8 like you mentioned. I get a regular 18KHz or > so signal out of that. Pin 9 gives the vertical signal at roughly > 50Hz. OK. Your PC and MDA card seem to be OK. Now trace through the horizontail circuit in the 5151. IIRC there is a driver transistor, the collector load of which is a transformer which couples to the base of the horizontal output transistor (sorry, I am doing this from memory, I don't have the techref in front of me). Do you get the 18kHz on the collector of the driver transistor? Are both transistors good? -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 03:10:19 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 09:10:19 +0100 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013d01d0e3c4$7aa2f720$6fe8e560$@gmail.com> There are two other working vintage APL implementations. There is one for the IBM1130 which can be downloaded from here:- http://ibm1130.org/sim/downloads and the other APL/360 on MTS so again Hercules is needed. http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/discussions/programming-language s-available-under-mts is probably a good starting place.... Dave Wade > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > Paul_Koning at Dell.com > Sent: 30 August 2015 23:54 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: APL\360 > > Probably old news to some, but I just ran into this 3 year old article. Gotta > dust off your Hercules: http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-apl- > programming-language-source-code/ > > And also http://wotho.ethz.ch/mvt4apl-2.00/ > > paul From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Aug 31 07:51:44 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 08:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55E36EFD.50808@pico-systems.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> <55E34CBE.5040204@sydex.com> <3FCE1EC6-3DAE-4DE9-A4E5-48E177C7B348@comcast.net> <55E361EB.6030406@sydex.com> <55E36EFD.50808@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <201508311251.IAA19120@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...] then in 1996 I built a laser photoplotter that cranks out > 1000x1000 DPI images on red-sensitive film at 0.6 inches/minute. I'd be very interested in anything you care to share about its design and building.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan at 757.org Mon Aug 31 09:40:35 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 10:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> <016601d0e361$3c18b750$b44a25f0$@net> <55E367C7.1010304@update.uu.se> <7A407E20002A4C0CBF0121FC448212D1@TeoPC> Message-ID: As a kid that grew up with the Atari 2600 as my first system, I played ET a fair bit. I know it gets all the hate, but yea, when I first saw Donkey Kong on the 2600 I literally had a tear or two roll down, it was that bad. Christmas morning and the excitement and yea, maybe this one is defective I thought. Maybe it's stuck in black and white. Yes. I know Coleco was pimping their own system (Which was my 2nd console system) and I realize that people went back and remade Donkey Kong on the 2600 so it wasn't quite as bad. On the flip side, there are some games on the 2600 that are just so good with the limited hardware. Frogs and Flies, a very very good game. Of course Pitfall II is the one that pushes it to the limits, but I never had that one. ET was not the best but not that worst. I'll never forget when I finally got picked up by the spaceship or whatever. I was really young so really didn't know what I was doing. -- Ethan O'Toole From pete at pski.net Mon Aug 31 10:17:15 2015 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 11:17:15 -0400 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> <016601d0e361$3c18b750$b44a25f0$@net> <55E367C7.1010304@update.uu.se> <7A407E20002A4C0CBF0121FC448212D1@TeoPC> Message-ID: <0012519F-7C7A-430A-BD40-82A41D5189A6@pski.net> > On Aug 31, 2015, at 10:40 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > > > As a kid that grew up with the Atari 2600 as my first system, I played ET a fair bit. I know it gets all the hate, but yea, when I first saw Donkey Kong on the 2600 I literally had a tear or two roll down, it was that bad. Christmas morning and the excitement and yea, maybe this one is defective I thought. Maybe it's stuck in black and white. Yes. I know Coleco was pimping their own system (Which was my 2nd console system) and I realize that people went back and remade Donkey Kong on the 2600 so it wasn't quite as bad. > I had the same sad experience when they released Pac Man for the 2600. IIRC, the Pac Man did not even change orientation when he moved in different directions! And the ghosts lost their individuality. I think I had moved on to ColecoVision by the time Donkey Kong was released on the 2600 and I felt so sorry for my friend who was still stuck on the 2600 when I saw it for the first time. Donkey Kong on Coleco was killer. From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Aug 31 10:37:19 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 10:37:19 -0500 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <00bc01d0e3c2$fe9829d0$fbc87d70$@gmail.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> <55E3A316.1040208@jetnet.ab.ca> <00bc01d0e3c2$fe9829d0$fbc87d70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55E474AF.9090306@pico-systems.com> On 08/31/2015 02:59 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > I seem to remember that 1620 core runs warm, and you have to wait for it to > get warm before the machine comes on-line ... see last paragraph > > http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/ebjoew/IBM_1620_Core_Memory.html > > Yes, many IBM machines used heaters to stabilize the core temperature. The 360/40 and 360/50 had heaters for the local store (register stack). Not sure about the 360/30 where local and main store were all in the same unit. Not sure if the higher machines also heated the main store. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 30 17:09:56 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 15:09:56 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55E36EFD.50808@pico-systems.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> <55E34CBE.5040204@sydex.com> <3FCE1EC6-3DAE-4DE9-A4E5-48E177C7B348@comcast.net> <55E361EB.6030406@sydex.com> <55E36EFD.50808@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55E37F34.8010806@sydex.com> On 08/30/2015 02:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > I hacked a fiber optic light pen onto a Calcomp plotter and made some > artwork directly onto film, and then in 1996 I built a laser > photoplotter that cranks out 1000x1000 DPI images on red-sensitive > film at 0.6 inches/minute. It can do up to 20 x 24" films, but I've > never gone over about one foot square. The trick is, it has to be > VERY accurate to line up with existing PC boards. I mostly use it to > make solder paste stencils, now, but originally made it for PC board > master artwork. That's pretty impressive, Jon. I do remember the headaches with registration of early multi-layer PCBs. Lots of rejects. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Aug 31 10:41:17 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 10:41:17 -0500 Subject: photoplotter In-Reply-To: <201508311251.IAA19120@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> <55E34CBE.5040204@sydex.com> <3FCE1EC6-3DAE-4DE9-A4E5-48E177C7B348@comcast.net> <55E361EB.6030406@sydex.com> <55E36EFD.50808@pico-systems.com> <201508311251.IAA19120@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <55E4759D.2090303@pico-systems.com> On 08/31/2015 07:51 AM, Mouse wrote: >> [...] then in 1996 I built a laser photoplotter that cranks out >> 1000x1000 DPI images on red-sensitive film at 0.6 inches/minute. > I'd be very interested in anything you care to share about its design > and building.... > > Here's my web page on it: http://pico-systems.com/photoplot.html I built this in 1996, as soon as red laser diodes became available. (I'd been trying to make it work with LEDs before, but the optics got difficult.) I just converted it over recently to run off a Beagle Bone computer. Jon From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Mon Aug 31 11:09:45 2015 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 11:09:45 -0500 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: <0012519F-7C7A-430A-BD40-82A41D5189A6@pski.net> References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> <016601d0e361$3c18b750$b44a25f0$@net> <55E367C7.1010304@update.uu.se> <7A407E20002A4C0CBF0121FC448212D1@TeoPC> <0012519F-7C7A-430A-BD40-82A41D5189A6@pski.net> Message-ID: On August 31, 2015 at 10:17:25 AM, Peter Cetinski (pete at pski.net) wrote: I had the same sad experience when they released Pac Man for the 2600. I do remember feeling disappointment when I got Pac Man. It was a hot game. My mother picked it up as a surprise. We got it home and? what? I enjoyed E.T. at the time. It wasn't until I got on the Internet years later that I read it was the worst video game ever and had caused the collapse of a billion dollar industry. Cheers, m From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Aug 31 11:14:50 2015 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 10:14:50 -0600 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> <016601d0e361$3c18b750$b44a25f0$@net> <55E367C7.1010304@update.uu.se> <7A407E20002A4C0CBF0121FC448212D1@TeoPC> <0012519F-7C7A-430A-BD40-82A41D5189A6@pski.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 10:09 AM, Mike Whalen wrote: > On August 31, 2015 at 10:17:25 AM, Peter Cetinski (pete at pski.net) wrote: > > I had the same sad experience when they released Pac Man for the 2600. > I do remember feeling disappointment when I got Pac Man. It was a hot > game. My mother picked it up as a surprise. We got it home and? what? > > I enjoyed E.T. at the time. It wasn't until I got on the Internet years > later that I read it was the worst video game ever and had caused the > collapse of a billion dollar industry. > I don't think E.T. caused the collapse of the industry. Pac Man was the worst game ever on the 2600. At least the worst that I ever played. ET had primitive graphics, but was playable (though frustrating if you hit one of the pit loops which, despite doom-sayer videos on the net, you can get out of with a little patience). Pac Man, in contrast, was so bad as to be almost unplayable. The translation from the arcade experience was horrible. Especially since the Activision carts at the time were so much better.... Atari hit a classic problem of failing to transition from a wide-open market to a saturated market and massively over-spent thinking the growth would last forever. When it hit the inevitable knee in the curve, they weren't prepare and had so many huge bets on the table they hadn't hedged that they imploded from bad management, not some silly game that disappointed. Warner From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 31 11:44:54 2015 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 16:44:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Worst Video Game Ever was Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> <016601d0e361$3c18b750$b44a25f0$@net> <55E367C7.1010304@update.uu.se> <7A407E20002A4C0CBF0121FC448212D1@TeoPC> <0012519F-7C7A-430A-BD40-82A41D5189A6@pski.net> Message-ID: <228408791.3524442.1441039494194.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Whenever I see someone say that ET was the "Worst Video Game Ever" I channel my inner Inigo Montoya, and say. I don't think it means what you think it means. I think they mean it was the Worst Commercial Failure, which is not the same thing. If I believe Wikipedia it is stated "3.5 million of the 4 million produced were sent back to the company as unsold inventory or customer returns. Despite sales figures, the quantity of unsold merchandise, coupled with the expensive movie license and the large amount of returns, made E.T. a major financial failure for Atari" Thats not good for Atari, but that doesn't make it the worst game ever. I agree with those who say Pac Man... I mean it looked nothing like the Arcade and it sounded like they sampled a rubber band. Not a good game at all. From js at cimmeri.com Mon Aug 31 12:05:39 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 12:05:39 -0500 Subject: MEM11 Status Update In-Reply-To: <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com> References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com> <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com> <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <55E48963.9010901@cimmeri.com> On 8/30/2015 1:08 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > The MEM11 is a multi-function memory > board for Unibus based PDP-11 > computers. It contains: > > * 128KW memory > * Emulates console ROM & boot ROMs > * 2 SLUs (DL11s) > * KW11K > * KW11P > * KW11L > * KW11W > * RF11 (emulating up to 8 RS11 disks) > * KE11 Guy, Fascinating and great work (not that I understand more than a bare minimum). Is this board something that will work with the PDP-11/05? The 11/05 has a built-in console SLU which I'm not sure whether can be disabled or not. Thank you- -John From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Aug 31 12:21:01 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 10:21:01 -0700 Subject: MEM11 Status Update In-Reply-To: <55E48963.9010901@cimmeri.com> References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com> <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com> <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com> <55E48963.9010901@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <55E48CFD.8070809@shiresoft.com> On 8/31/15 10:05 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > > On 8/30/2015 1:08 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> The MEM11 is a multi-function memory board for Unibus based PDP-11 >> computers. It contains: >> >> * 128KW memory >> * Emulates console ROM & boot ROMs >> * 2 SLUs (DL11s) >> * KW11K >> * KW11P >> * KW11L >> * KW11W >> * RF11 (emulating up to 8 RS11 disks) >> * KE11 > > Guy, > > Fascinating and great work (not that I understand more than a bare > minimum). > > Is this board something that will work with the PDP-11/05? The > 11/05 has a built-in console SLU which I'm not sure whether can be > disabled or not. > It should work (famous last words!) in any Unibus based PDP-11. Any of the devices can be configured enabled/disabled and as to what the based address is (this includes the memory...if you want to use the memory to "fill in" the remainder, it can do that too). There is space for 32 boot ROM images, of which you can select any 4 to appear in the Unibus address space. So, that was a long answer to if (for example) on the 11/05 you want to retain the built in console SLU, you can do that and either have 2 additional SLUs, (or 1 or none). TTFN - Guy From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 12:41:31 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 12:41:31 -0500 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> Message-ID: Funny you should mention Pitfall! Because it wasn't really until the 3rd party 'blockbusters' from outfits like Activision appeared, that the gaming public came to realize just how seriously lazy and unimaginative Atari's in-house development team was. On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:09 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Ali wrote: >> >> How might a collector discern a "landfill" E.T. cart from any other E.T. >>>> cat that some snarky guy buried in the clay of his back forty? >>>> >>> >>> Not that I am expert or anything but my understanding is that the ET >>> cart is extremely rare to begin with. In fact the landfill collection is >>> the largest supply of the cart to be injected into the market. >>> >> >> A quick search of eBay would correct your 'understanding'. There are >> dozens of copies for sale, many with boxes and manuals. They start at about >> $5.00. >> >> The game is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's a joke, >> possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with Superman 64 for >> N64. >> > > When I used to buy Atari stuff at resale shops to build my own collection > (back in the early to mid 1990s when people were practically giving away > 2600 stuff), ET seemed to be pretty common. It wasn't nearly as common as > Pac-Man or Pitfall! or a pack-in game like Combat, but I saw them > frequently. I gave/traded away quite a few copies of ET but kept at least > one. > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 12:43:44 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 13:43:44 -0400 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> Message-ID: Worst game - Journey Escape or whatever it was called. On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 1:41 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Funny you should mention Pitfall! Because it wasn't really until the 3rd > party 'blockbusters' from outfits like Activision appeared, that the gaming > public came to realize just how seriously lazy and unimaginative Atari's > in-house development team was. > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:09 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > > > On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > > > >> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Ali wrote: > >> > >> How might a collector discern a "landfill" E.T. cart from any other E.T. > >>>> cat that some snarky guy buried in the clay of his back forty? > >>>> > >>> > >>> Not that I am expert or anything but my understanding is that the ET > >>> cart is extremely rare to begin with. In fact the landfill collection > is > >>> the largest supply of the cart to be injected into the market. > >>> > >> > >> A quick search of eBay would correct your 'understanding'. There are > >> dozens of copies for sale, many with boxes and manuals. They start at > about > >> $5.00. > >> > >> The game is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's a > joke, > >> possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with Superman 64 > for > >> N64. > >> > > > > When I used to buy Atari stuff at resale shops to build my own collection > > (back in the early to mid 1990s when people were practically giving away > > 2600 stuff), ET seemed to be pretty common. It wasn't nearly as common as > > Pac-Man or Pitfall! or a pack-in game like Combat, but I saw them > > frequently. I gave/traded away quite a few copies of ET but kept at least > > one. > > > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From jason at textfiles.com Mon Aug 31 12:43:52 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 13:43:52 -0400 Subject: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> Message-ID: Low, uninformed blow. By the time Pitfall comes out, the Atari 2600 has been extant for five full years, and David Crane On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 1:41 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Funny you should mention Pitfall! Because it wasn't really until the 3rd > party 'blockbusters' from outfits like Activision appeared, that the gaming > public came to realize just how seriously lazy and unimaginative Atari's > in-house development team was. > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:09 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > > > On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > > > >> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Ali wrote: > >> > >> How might a collector discern a "landfill" E.T. cart from any other E.T. > >>>> cat that some snarky guy buried in the clay of his back forty? > >>>> > >>> > >>> Not that I am expert or anything but my understanding is that the ET > >>> cart is extremely rare to begin with. In fact the landfill collection > is > >>> the largest supply of the cart to be injected into the market. > >>> > >> > >> A quick search of eBay would correct your 'understanding'. There are > >> dozens of copies for sale, many with boxes and manuals. They start at > about > >> $5.00. > >> > >> The game is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's a > joke, > >> possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with Superman 64 > for > >> N64. > >> > > > > When I used to buy Atari stuff at resale shops to build my own collection > > (back in the early to mid 1990s when people were practically giving away > > 2600 stuff), ET seemed to be pretty common. It wasn't nearly as common as > > Pac-Man or Pitfall! or a pack-in game like Combat, but I saw them > > frequently. I gave/traded away quite a few copies of ET but kept at least > > one. > > > From ethan at 757.org Mon Aug 31 12:56:35 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 13:56:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Worst Video Game Ever was Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: <228408791.3524442.1441039494194.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> <016601d0e361$3c18b750$b44a25f0$@net> <55E367C7.1010304@update.uu.se> <7A407E20002A4C0CBF0121FC448212D1@TeoPC> <0012519F-7C7A-430A-BD40-82A41D5189A6@pski.net> <228408791.3524442.1441039494194.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > "3.5 million of the 4 million produced were sent back to the company as unsold inventory or customer returns. Despite sales figures, the quantity of unsold merchandise, coupled with the expensive movie license and the large amount of returns, made E.T. a major financial failure for Atari" > Thats not good for Atari, but that doesn't make it the worst game ever. > I agree with those who say Pac Man... I mean it looked nothing like the Arcade and it sounded like they sampled a rubber band. > Not a good game at all. But it was the Atari 2600, at that day and age I don't think there was an expectation that the game on the home system would look like the arcade? It was from the era of tennis tv games and such? It had a mouth, and a pass thru, and ghosts and dots. Colecovision and others started to change expectations. I guess it wasn't too long after ColecoVision that Atari 8 bit computers and that brought with it pretty good ports of Arcade titles -- I was probably late to the 8bit atari (800XL here) I guess the people with the 400/800 were first to have arcade-ish gameplay. The 8bit computers still isn't as same as playing the real arcade PCB though. Just closer. That day I got the NES..... I think I hit reset 100 times over and over just to hear the intro music from the Gyromite cart. It had clear drumbeats! And multiple part music. It was so good. The reset button felt nice and quality even. -- Ethan O'Toole From js at cimmeri.com Mon Aug 31 13:00:23 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 13:00:23 -0500 Subject: Worst Video Game Ever was Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000 In-Reply-To: References: <20150829182938.506a2892@honcho.bcwi.net> <016501d0e353$79b35150$6d19f3f0$@net> <016601d0e361$3c18b750$b44a25f0$@net> <55E367C7.1010304@update.uu.se> <7A407E20002A4C0CBF0121FC448212D1@TeoPC> <0012519F-7C7A-430A-BD40-82A41D5189A6@pski.net> <228408791.3524442.1441039494194.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55E49637.6050808@cimmeri.com> On 8/31/2015 12:56 PM, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> "3.5 million of the 4 million >> produced were sent back to the >> company as unsold inventory or >> customer returns. Despite sales >> figures, the quantity of unsold >> merchandise, coupled with the >> expensive movie license and the large >> amount of returns, made E.T. a major >> financial failure for Atari" >> Thats not good for Atari, but that >> doesn't make it the worst game ever. >> I agree with those who say Pac Man... >> I mean it looked nothing like the >> Arcade and it sounded like they >> sampled a rubber band. >> Not a good game at all. > > But it was the Atari 2600, at that day > and age I don't think there was an > expectation that the game on the home > system would look like the arcade? It > was from the era of tennis tv games > and such? It had a mouth, and a pass > thru, and ghosts and dots. > > Colecovision and others started to > change expectations. I guess it wasn't > too long after ColecoVision that Atari > 8 bit computers and that brought with > it pretty good ports of Arcade titles > -- I was probably late to the 8bit > atari (800XL here) I guess the people > with the 400/800 were first to have > arcade-ish gameplay. The 8bit > computers still isn't as same as > playing the real arcade PCB though. > Just closer. > > That day I got the NES..... I think I > hit reset 100 times over and over just > to hear the intro music from the > Gyromite cart. It had clear drumbeats! > And multiple part music. It was so > good. The reset button felt nice and > quality even. > > > -- > Ethan O'Toole You're right re the expectations of that time. It's very difficult to put oneself back in that naive mindset, to remember how things *first* struck us. That said, however, I'm still quite happy playing with my Bally Arcade... ;-) - J. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 31 13:43:01 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 11:43:01 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> <55E0957F.5000305@snarc.net> <55E34694.6000803@gmail.com> <55E3970A.5080100@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55E4A035.1010206@sydex.com> On 08/30/2015 05:55 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > Wrong type of UV. You are mostly getting long wave UVA outdoors, so > blacklight lamps would seem to be the correct (and MUCH safer) > choice. When I looked at 24" T8 bi-pin blacklight lamps, they were > going for about USD $10 per lamp. > > UVC germicidal lamps would also require an enclosure to protect the > user from exposure to short wave UV. This isn't as necessary with > long wave UVA (unless someone was going to be around it for long > periods of time on a regular basis). Some digging for anectodal evidence (there's very little methodical technical stuff) on the process indicates that the ordinary aquarium-style UVA lamps work extremely slowly; the germicidal UVC lamps work very quickly, but overexposure to UVC is counter-productive in that it furthers the breakdown of the flame retardant bromine-containing stuff that caused the yellowing. So perhaps UVB is the best compromise, assuming that Planck was onto something... Note that much of the material on the web does not concern computer equipment. The most disturbing reports were from the people to de-yellowed gloss-finish items reporting that said items come out less than glossy, particularly when percarbonate (Oxiclean) was added to the mix. Reports were varied and interesting. UV was cited repeatedly as a suspect when it came to causing yellowing in the first place This flies in the face of my experience in that I've had gear that's spent almost all of its life in a closed storage cabinet that yellowed anyway. Regardless of all of this, it seems that yellowing does recur, which is what one would expect from what amounts to a surface treatment. No, I don't plan on using this process... --Chuck From spc at conman.org Mon Aug 31 15:24:58 2015 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 16:24:58 -0400 Subject: Worst Video Game Ever was Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100, 000 In-Reply-To: <55E49637.6050808@cimmeri.com> References: <016601d0e361$3c18b750$b44a25f0$@net> <55E367C7.1010304@update.uu.se> <7A407E20002A4C0CBF0121FC448212D1@TeoPC> <0012519F-7C7A-430A-BD40-82A41D5189A6@pski.net> <228408791.3524442.1441039494194.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E49637.6050808@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <20150831202458.GC3662@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great js at cimmeri.com once stated: > > That said, however, I'm still quite > happy playing with my Bally Arcade... ;-) I remember that system! My uncle had one. What I remember most about it is the controller, a combination joystick and paddle in one. It was quite a nice controller. -spc From ethan at 757.org Mon Aug 31 15:29:42 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 16:29:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Worst Video Game Ever was Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100, 000 In-Reply-To: <20150831202458.GC3662@brevard.conman.org> References: <016601d0e361$3c18b750$b44a25f0$@net> <55E367C7.1010304@update.uu.se> <7A407E20002A4C0CBF0121FC448212D1@TeoPC> <0012519F-7C7A-430A-BD40-82A41D5189A6@pski.net> <228408791.3524442.1441039494194.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E49637.6050808@cimmeri.com> <20150831202458.GC3662@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: > I remember that system! My uncle had one. What I remember most about it > is the controller, a combination joystick and paddle in one. It was quite a > nice controller. > -spc I think a friend is looking to buy a set of controllers for a Bally Astrocade if anyone has a set they're interested in selling. He is located in Chesapeake VA but shipping is not a big deal. I was just poking around inside a few arcade games yesterday including Battlezone, Tron, Tempest and a few others. -- Ethan O'Toole From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Aug 31 20:47:00 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:47:00 -0500 Subject: IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <55E37F34.8010806@sydex.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> <55E34CBE.5040204@sydex.com> <3FCE1EC6-3DAE-4DE9-A4E5-48E177C7B348@comcast.net> <55E361EB.6030406@sydex.com> <55E36EFD.50808@pico-systems.com> <55E37F34.8010806@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55E50394.1020706@pico-systems.com> On 08/30/2015 05:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/30/2015 02:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> I hacked a fiber optic light pen onto a Calcomp plotter >> and made some >> artwork directly onto film, and then in 1996 I built a >> laser >> photoplotter that cranks out 1000x1000 DPI images on >> red-sensitive >> film at 0.6 inches/minute. It can do up to 20 x 24" >> films, but I've >> never gone over about one foot square. The trick is, it >> has to be >> VERY accurate to line up with existing PC boards. I >> mostly use it to >> make solder paste stencils, now, but originally made it >> for PC board >> master artwork. > > That's pretty impressive, Jon. > > I do remember the headaches with registration of early > multi-layer PCBs. Lots of rejects. > YIKES! Multilayer! I do have a system for registering 2-layer boards, back when I used to make those myself. You need a piece of Plexiglas about the same thickness as the PC board material. You need a scrap of PC board material to use as a spacer between the front and rear artwork films. You put this on a light table, and glue the strip of PC board material to the edge of the film, place the Plexiglas on the film and place the other film on top of the Plexiglas. Glue the top film with rubber cement and use a magnifier to adjust alignment until it is as close as you can get it, then put a weight on the glued joint and leave it for a couple hours. When the glue is dry, you can slip a photoresist-covered board between the two films and expose in a vacuum frame. The two sides will come out well-aligned. Jon From jws at jwsss.com Mon Aug 31 22:04:21 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:04:21 -0700 Subject: photoplotter In-Reply-To: <55E4759D.2090303@pico-systems.com> References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com> <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com> <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net> <55E085C1.6050507@sydex.com> <20150828213644.24097799@honcho.bcwi.net> <2EA5C3D4-CF0A-451B-BA9C-F65704641920@comcast.net> <022101d0e300$b7ff2040$27fd60c0$@gmail.com> <55E343A9.1010504@sydex.com> <0F9FBFD6-5F6E-4EE1-ACFC-1DED1D6DC7C3@comcast.net> <55E34CBE.5040204@sydex.com> <3FCE1EC6-3DAE-4DE9-A4E5-48E177C7B348@comcast.net> <55E361EB.6030406@sydex.com> <55E36EFD.50808@pico-systems.com> <201508311251.IAA19120@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55E4759D.2090303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55E515B5.7070502@jwsss.com> I have a "hot tub" scanner which could be adapted to plotting which is IIRC 4 x 4' It would be free for the taking to an interested party in LA CA area. It has the mechanism to move a mirror which was used to scan with a very nice scan camera, so has all the logistics of holding paper while you move around under it. It is an Ektagraphic, again IIRC which was made by Kodak. Was one of those, "You can have the pile for $200 less if you take the scanner" thanks Jim On 8/31/2015 8:41 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 08/31/2015 07:51 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> [...] then in 1996 I built a laser photoplotter that cranks out >>> 1000x1000 DPI images on red-sensitive film at 0.6 inches/minute. >> I'd be very interested in anything you care to share about its design >> and building.... >> >> > Here's my web page on it: > http://pico-systems.com/photoplot.html > > I built this in 1996, as soon as red laser diodes became available. > (I'd been trying to make it work with LEDs before, but the optics got > difficult.) I just converted it over recently to run off a Beagle > Bone computer. > > Jon > > From cube1 at charter.net Mon Aug 31 23:10:29 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 23:10:29 -0500 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <55E4A035.1010206@sydex.com> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> <55E0957F.5000305@snarc.net> <55E34694.6000803@gmail.com> <55E3970A.5080100@sydex.com> <55E4A035.1010206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55E52535.2000204@charter.net> On 8/31/2015 1:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Reports were varied and interesting. UV was cited repeatedly as a > suspect when it came to causing yellowing in the first place This flies > in the face of my experience in that I've had gear that's spent almost > all of its life in a closed storage cabinet that yellowed anyway. > > Regardless of all of this, it seems that yellowing does recur, which is > what one would expect from what amounts to a surface treatment. > > No, I don't plan on using this process... > > --Chuck > My VT100 is most yellow on the side facing the window, which for years had ordinary glass. It is less yellow front and back, and almost no yellow on the side away from the window. Same with its keyboard. So, in at least some cases, it does seem to be related to how much light that falls on the surface. JRU From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 31 23:30:15 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 21:30:15 -0700 Subject: De-yellowing results In-Reply-To: <55E52535.2000204@charter.net> References: <55DF5ADE.5080208@snarc.net> <15CADA0E-F960-406F-BB9D-8146EC9B6283@pski.net> <55DF60FB.9070303@snarc.net> <55E08C4B.8080404@snarc.net> <008001d0e1b2$9ca03e00$d5e0ba00$@net> <55E0957F.5000305@snarc.net> <55E34694.6000803@gmail.com> <55E3970A.5080100@sydex.com> <55E4A035.1010206@sydex.com> <55E52535.2000204@charter.net> Message-ID: <55E529D7.7050102@sydex.com> On 08/31/2015 09:10 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > My VT100 is most yellow on the side facing the window, which for > years had ordinary glass. It is less yellow front and back, and > almost no yellow on the side away from the window. Same with its > keyboard. > > So, in at least some cases, it does seem to be related to how much > light that falls on the surface. Yup. I pulled a ITT clone of a AT&T 2500 series desk set phone from the storage cabinet. You know, the usual made-to-last 50 years iconic phone. It was a light brownish-beige after I picked it up cheap back in the 1980s. It has never been used, much less seen the light of day. Today, the beige has developed an ugly yellow cast--and it's uniform over the entire phone. The material, as I seem to recall, is ABS (Cycolac). Oddly, the WE-made same-color phones that I have and are out in the open (and the same color) don't show this discoloration. --Chuck From vlad.stamate at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 17:18:39 2015 From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 18:18:39 -0400 Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151 In-Reply-To: References: <70B1D8D9-FDDB-4FC6-930F-5ABBF7A2A01D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, I traced the 18Khz signal all the way from the moment it enters the logic board until the video board (attached to the neck of the CRT). The signal is there (it has different shapes but it is 18KHz). The output of both transistors is 18KHz and so is the output of the transformer. I traced it across resistors and capacitors as well. The voltage (Vpp) does change as expected but the signal is present. Pin 6 and 7 have the 18KHz signal too on the CRT connector. However they only measure 7 and 10V respectively. Regards, Vlad. On 31 August 2015 at 02:26, tony duell wrote: > >> Hi Tony, >> >> I have checked the horizontal signal from the MDA using an >> oscilloscope. It is pin 8 like you mentioned. I get a regular 18KHz or >> so signal out of that. Pin 9 gives the vertical signal at roughly >> 50Hz. > > OK. Your PC and MDA card seem to be OK. > > Now trace through the horizontail circuit in the 5151. IIRC there > is a driver transistor, the collector load of which is a transformer > which couples to the base of the horizontal output transistor > (sorry, I am doing this from memory, I don't have the techref > in front of me). Do you get the 18kHz on the collector of > the driver transistor? > > Are both transistors good? > > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 31 23:54:15 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 04:54:15 +0000 Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151 In-Reply-To: References: <70B1D8D9-FDDB-4FC6-930F-5ABBF7A2A01D@gmail.com> , Message-ID: > Hi, > > I traced the 18Khz signal all the way from the moment it enters the > logic board until the video board (attached to the neck of the CRT). > The signal is there (it has different shapes but it is 18KHz). The No, that is a different 18kHz signal. That is the video, which will have a significant component at the horizontal frequency. It starts from pins 6 (intensity) and 7 (video) of the DE9 connector You need to trace on from pin 8 to transistors on the main board, right up to the flyback transformer. -tony