From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 14:12:29 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 21:12:29 +0100 Subject: DecWriter / LA30P with unibus Message-ID: For quite some time I have been pursuing an effort to repair a PDP-11/04 system and make it running under CAPS-11. I have had it successfully boot from the TU60 tape drive. The plan is now to attach a contemporary console terminal to it. I happen to have a LA30P which looks suitable and would make it a nice looking system. I have documented the effort here: http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-04 The LA30 is now working fine but the problem is that I don't have the M7910 or M791 card that make up the LC11 Unibus option as this terminal was once upon a time connected to a PDP-8/E instead. Is there anyone that have a M7910 or M791 card who wants to sell or trade it for something? During the restoration process of the LA30 I found that it is using quite uncommon paper. I needs 9-7/8 inch (250 mm) wide paper. Is there a source for this kind of paper somewhere else than in the USA? If there is no M791 or M7910 available I have to either make my own M791 or make a serial / parallel converter to go into the LA30P (I guess that no one has the M7389 and M7731 boards that make it a LA30S, or?). When looking for more information on the LC11, there were limited amount available on the net. I did find the LC11 Decwriter System Manuel (pages 4-2 and 4-3 was missing which is quite annoying) but not the LC11 Decwriter System Engineering Drawings. Anyone knows an online source for that one? /Mattis From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 14:18:46 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 21:18:46 +0100 Subject: Thanks for getting the list up again! Message-ID: I should have written it in my previous post: Thanks a lot, Jay, for getting the list working again! /Mattis From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 2 15:06:20 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 21:06:20 -0000 Subject: FW: Comparison of Desoldering Stations Message-ID: <06c701cff6e0$d9d11820$8d734860$@ntlworld.com> Sending again since the rebuild of the list probably lost the first post (apologies if this is duplicate). Thanks Rob From: Robert Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] Sent: 02 November 2014 18:29 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts (cctalk at classiccmp.org) Subject: Comparison of Desoldering Stations I need to buy a desoldering station and in my price range it seems I have the choice of two: Duratool (sold under several other brands too) D00672: http://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d00672/desoldering-station-uk-eu-plug/dp/SD0 1384 Aoyue 474A++: http://www.amazon.co.uk/AOYUE-Aoyue-474A-Desoldering-Station/dp/B00FDOP2DI/ Has anyone tried both of these to give me an idea which is the better buy? Thanks Rob From charles at uniwho.com Sun Nov 2 15:22:27 2014 From: charles at uniwho.com (Charles) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 16:22:27 -0500 Subject: Comparison of Desoldering Stations In-Reply-To: <06c701cff6e0$d9d11820$8d734860$@ntlworld.com> References: <06c701cff6e0$d9d11820$8d734860$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I use the X-TRONIC station, it seems to be working quite well. http://www.xtronicusa.com/home/#!/4-IN-1-X-TRONIC-9020-XTS-HOT-AIR-REWORK-SOLDERING-IRON-STATION-FUME-EXTRACTOR-&-VACUUM-PICKUP-TOOL/p/17796160/category=4184030 its basically a hakko, all the tips and heaters are hakko brand. for desoldering i suggest this. http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-993A-90W-Electric-Vacuum-Desoldering-Gun-220V-PUMP-Soleder-Sucker-DIY-/221407997724?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item338cf1ef1c i own this(S-993A), hakko 808 and the hakko fr-300 be careful they have 110v and 220v versions. and this keeps up with the big boys and at around 50 L, your price or less ,in the UK you cant go wrong. pretty sure these filters work with the S-993A http://www.ebay.com/itm/Small-17-mm-Filter-for-Desoldering-Gun-552A-as-used-with-ZD-985-Pack-of-5-/131206487725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e8c841ead its got excellent thermal recovery maybe even better then the Fr-300 On Nov 2, 2014, at 4:06 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Sending again since the rebuild of the list probably lost the first post > (apologies if this is duplicate). > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > > From: Robert Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] > Sent: 02 November 2014 18:29 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts (cctalk at classiccmp.org) > Subject: Comparison of Desoldering Stations > > > > I need to buy a desoldering station and in my price range it seems I have > the choice of two: > > > > Duratool (sold under several other brands too) D00672: > http://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d00672/desoldering-station-uk-eu-plug/dp/SD0 > 1384 > > Aoyue 474A++: > http://www.amazon.co.uk/AOYUE-Aoyue-474A-Desoldering-Station/dp/B00FDOP2DI/ > > > > Has anyone tried both of these to give me an idea which is the better buy? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > From shumaker at att.net Sun Nov 2 16:15:54 2014 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2014 14:15:54 -0800 Subject: CD carriers FFS from 95006 Message-ID: <5456AD1A.40500@att.net> Standard CD carriers/trays for Sun type CD drives... I have 11 of them... no physical damage although some have mild plastic yellowing. All appear functional/usable. Free for shipping from 95006 (Haven't tried but I suspect they will all fit a small flat rate box if you want the lot). Steve From b4 at gewt.net Sun Nov 2 16:30:29 2014 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 17:30:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: CD carriers FFS from 95006 In-Reply-To: <5456AD1A.40500@att.net> References: <5456AD1A.40500@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 2014, steve shumaker wrote: > Standard CD carriers/trays for Sun type CD drives... I have 11 of them... > no physical damage although some have mild plastic yellowing. All appear > functional/usable. > > Free for shipping from 95006 (Haven't tried but I suspect they will all fit > a small flat rate box if you want the lot). > > Steve > Do you happen to have any drives to go along with them? -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 2 16:39:22 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 16:39:22 -0600 Subject: list back up Message-ID: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> The classiccmp server and it's backups were on a temporary san that hit a bug and rebooted itself. Needless to say, dropping iscsi to a hypervisor is not a good thing. The classiccmp vm thus rebooted itself, ran fsck, and (as best as I can tell) the only thing corrupted was the cctalk and cctech config.pck files (which contain the list settings and membership). The only backup had the same corruption on it, because it ran the backup before I noticed the problem. Anyways. Knowing the recovery wouldn't be quick/easy anyways, I took the opportunity to just build a new classiccmp server VM from scratch. The latest OS, patches, dependencies, libraries, and ports. This new VM is on the new production san so there's a pretty fair amount of additional disk space thrown at classiccmp (and thus bitsavers). It's always amazing when I revisit this just how many packages/services are on that machine that a reload from scratch requires. It's been a busy few days/nights. Things you should know: 1> The membership list for each list was recovered thanks to the hard work of DBoone. He processed the last few days of maillogs to get the subscriber lists back. THANK YOU D. 2> Given how we had to do #1, it is possible that a few folks that had subscriptions weren't automatically re-subscribed (someone who set their membership on 'no email' could be one example). Those folks will notice and just resubscribe. 3> Given the very bizarre way we had the cctalk and cctech lists "joined at the hip", I do not recall the magic we did to get that working properly. I am aware that posts from one probably aren't being redirected to the other like it used to (if at all). I'm working on refiguring that out, and any suggestions (offlist) would be most appreciated. 4> Given that I had to recreate the lists configurations from scratch, I'm pretty certain that I have some settings different than used to be. If you find anything different that matters, let me know. 5> The "new" classiccmp server is currently hosting the mailing lists, the classiccmp.org website, plus all websites that are underneath classiccmp.org (ex. www.classiccmp.org/hp , www.classiccmp.org/cpmarchives , etc.). Thus, you may notice a different ip address and hostname on the server. The new name/IP will stick till any future rebuilds. 6> The "old" classiccmp server is still up, and is hosting all the websites that have their own domain name. Time permitting, I'll be migrating those one at a time to the new server. During that time period - however long it takes - ftp and rsyncd will not be available to prevent loosing changes when cutover occurs. 7> I do not recall who all the folks were that were helping review/gate posts between cctalk/cctech. If you were one of those folks, please let me know asap off-list so I can get you re-added. 8> For people who have websites hosted on the classiccmp server, be aware the new server is running mysql56, php56, and apache24 (with mod_itk). Before your website is moved, let me know if you're aware of any breakage that using those new versions may cause. I'd also prefer to transform any myisam databases to innodb unless you're aware of an issue that may cause. 9> Please do not post to the list or email me directly about "hey, the archives are gone!". They have been preserved, and time permitting they will get imported back into the "new" mailing list (along with the missing 199x bits that were recently mentioned). Rumor has it that someone has volunteered to improve the archive search mechanism in the not too distant future. 10> Many people have asked me over the past year or so to host their classiccmp-related website, and I pushed them off due to the lack of disk space. That is no longer an issue so if you're one of the people wanting that (and still do), now is the time to get back in touch with me. As always, we'll host any classiccmp-related website free of charge. 11> Within the next 30 days (at most) we'll be adding the classiccmp server to our CDN service. The advantage: I would expect to be able to remove any/all bandwidth limits previously in place and folks will be able to download files from the bitsavers master very quickly and your classiccmp-hosted websites will be a lot more snappy. The downside is, you'll have to either be ok with it taking a while for new/changed content on your site to be visible world-wide, or you'll need to take a look at the api (or via a CDN website login) to invalidate the cache when you change something. In most cases, this can be easily automated. 12> During the mailing list outage, all websites and bitsavers were still up. It was just the mailing lists that were affected. I'm sure there's more that I've forgotten. But.. Enjoy! Best, J From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 2 16:39:22 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 16:39:22 -0600 Subject: list back up Message-ID: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> The classiccmp server and it's backups were on a temporary san that hit a bug and rebooted itself. Needless to say, dropping iscsi to a hypervisor is not a good thing. The classiccmp vm thus rebooted itself, ran fsck, and (as best as I can tell) the only thing corrupted was the cctalk and cctech config.pck files (which contain the list settings and membership). The only backup had the same corruption on it, because it ran the backup before I noticed the problem. Anyways. Knowing the recovery wouldn't be quick/easy anyways, I took the opportunity to just build a new classiccmp server VM from scratch. The latest OS, patches, dependencies, libraries, and ports. This new VM is on the new production san so there's a pretty fair amount of additional disk space thrown at classiccmp (and thus bitsavers). It's always amazing when I revisit this just how many packages/services are on that machine that a reload from scratch requires. It's been a busy few days/nights. Things you should know: 1> The membership list for each list was recovered thanks to the hard work of DBoone. He processed the last few days of maillogs to get the subscriber lists back. THANK YOU D. 2> Given how we had to do #1, it is possible that a few folks that had subscriptions weren't automatically re-subscribed (someone who set their membership on 'no email' could be one example). Those folks will notice and just resubscribe. 3> Given the very bizarre way we had the cctalk and cctech lists "joined at the hip", I do not recall the magic we did to get that working properly. I am aware that posts from one probably aren't being redirected to the other like it used to (if at all). I'm working on refiguring that out, and any suggestions (offlist) would be most appreciated. 4> Given that I had to recreate the lists configurations from scratch, I'm pretty certain that I have some settings different than used to be. If you find anything different that matters, let me know. 5> The "new" classiccmp server is currently hosting the mailing lists, the classiccmp.org website, plus all websites that are underneath classiccmp.org (ex. www.classiccmp.org/hp , www.classiccmp.org/cpmarchives , etc.). Thus, you may notice a different ip address and hostname on the server. The new name/IP will stick till any future rebuilds. 6> The "old" classiccmp server is still up, and is hosting all the websites that have their own domain name. Time permitting, I'll be migrating those one at a time to the new server. During that time period - however long it takes - ftp and rsyncd will not be available to prevent loosing changes when cutover occurs. 7> I do not recall who all the folks were that were helping review/gate posts between cctalk/cctech. If you were one of those folks, please let me know asap off-list so I can get you re-added. 8> For people who have websites hosted on the classiccmp server, be aware the new server is running mysql56, php56, and apache24 (with mod_itk). Before your website is moved, let me know if you're aware of any breakage that using those new versions may cause. I'd also prefer to transform any myisam databases to innodb unless you're aware of an issue that may cause. 9> Please do not post to the list or email me directly about "hey, the archives are gone!". They have been preserved, and time permitting they will get imported back into the "new" mailing list (along with the missing 199x bits that were recently mentioned). Rumor has it that someone has volunteered to improve the archive search mechanism in the not too distant future. 10> Many people have asked me over the past year or so to host their classiccmp-related website, and I pushed them off due to the lack of disk space. That is no longer an issue so if you're one of the people wanting that (and still do), now is the time to get back in touch with me. As always, we'll host any classiccmp-related website free of charge. 11> Within the next 30 days (at most) we'll be adding the classiccmp server to our CDN service. The advantage: I would expect to be able to remove any/all bandwidth limits previously in place and folks will be able to download files from the bitsavers master very quickly and your classiccmp-hosted websites will be a lot more snappy. The downside is, you'll have to either be ok with it taking a while for new/changed content on your site to be visible world-wide, or you'll need to take a look at the api (or via a CDN website login) to invalidate the cache when you change something. In most cases, this can be easily automated. 12> During the mailing list outage, all websites and bitsavers were still up. It was just the mailing lists that were affected. I'm sure there's more that I've forgotten. But.. Enjoy! Best, J From shumaker at att.net Sun Nov 2 16:46:59 2014 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2014 14:46:59 -0800 Subject: CD carriers FFS from 95006 In-Reply-To: References: <5456AD1A.40500@att.net> Message-ID: <5456B463.1070200@att.net> Nope - just trays. These were in a media box that came from the Barry Dobyns collection that I've been cataloging. There were Sun boxes and (I think) some CDROM units that Bob Rosenbloom hauled out to list and redistribute. I suspect he still has stuff left - but no clue as to what.. Ask him. steve On 11/2/2014 2:30 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On Sun, 2 Nov 2014, steve shumaker wrote: > >> Standard CD carriers/trays for Sun type CD drives... I have 11 of >> them... no physical damage although some have mild plastic >> yellowing. All appear functional/usable. >> >> Free for shipping from 95006 (Haven't tried but I suspect they will >> all fit a small flat rate box if you want the lot). >> >> Steve >> > > Do you happen to have any drives to go along with them? > From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 14:33:14 2014 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 15:33:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Small change in mailing headers Message-ID: Thanks for getting the list going again. Probably not a big deal, but the 'Sender' header now has quotes around the string 'cctalk' and required a slight tweak to my procmail rules. Steve -- From j at ckrubin.us Sun Nov 2 14:20:12 2014 From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 20:20:12 +0000 Subject: DecWriter / LA30P with unibus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8745fb847bae439b8c0ac3deb5fdbc14@BLUPR05MB166.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Whoopee!! Jay has us back online - thank you, sir! Mattis - I have an M7910 card for you; private email sent. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mattis Lind > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 2:12 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: DecWriter / LA30P with unibus > > For quite some time I have been pursuing an effort to repair a PDP-11/04 > system and make it running under CAPS-11. I have had it successfully boot > from the TU60 tape drive. The plan is now to attach a contemporary console > terminal to it. I happen to have a LA30P which looks suitable and would make > it a nice looking system. > > I have documented the effort here: > http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp- > 11-04 > > The LA30 is now working fine but the problem is that I don't have the M7910 > or M791 card that make up the LC11 Unibus option as this terminal was once > upon a time connected to a PDP-8/E instead. > > Is there anyone that have a M7910 or M791 card who wants to sell or trade it > for something? > > During the restoration process of the LA30 I found that it is using quite > uncommon paper. I needs 9-7/8 inch (250 mm) wide paper. Is there a source > for this kind of paper somewhere else than in the USA? > > If there is no M791 or M7910 available I have to either make my own M791 or > make a serial / parallel converter to go into the LA30P (I guess that no one has > the M7389 and M7731 boards that make it a LA30S, or?). > > When looking for more information on the LC11, there were limited amount > available on the net. I did find the LC11 Decwriter System Manuel (pages > 4-2 and 4-3 was missing which is quite annoying) but not the LC11 Decwriter > System Engineering Drawings. Anyone knows an online source for that one? > > /Mattis From cctalk at fahimi.net Sun Nov 2 17:05:35 2014 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 15:05:35 -0800 Subject: IBM 7868-047 Modems Message-ID: <000301cff6f1$84448cf0$8ccda6d0$@net> Ahhh nice to have the lust back! About a year ago I "rescued" a whole rack of these modems off the side of the street. Unfortunately, they do not come with ANY documentation and my Google fu has so far determined that they are most likely for leased lines only. Does anyone have any info or familiarity with this modem? I know some other IBM LL modems could work over PTSN but had to be set in the right mode. Can this be done for these modems? Also does anyone know if these modems will accept standard Hayes AT commands? Or just the IBM command set? Which brings me to my next question what is the IBM command set? Any documentation or guidance is very much appreciated. I would love to get these guys up and running! -Ali From cctalk at fahimi.net Sun Nov 2 17:05:35 2014 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 15:05:35 -0800 Subject: Second/Final Attempt - Control Board for Mitsubishi M2896 8" FDD Message-ID: <000801cff6f1$853a5ea0$8faf1be0$@net> Long shot here but does anyone have a control board (or two) for an 8" internal Mitsubishi M2896-63-02U either from a dead drive or as spare parts they may want to part with? Thanks. -Ali From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Nov 2 17:07:05 2014 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 12:07:05 +1300 Subject: list back up In-Reply-To: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> References: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > Knowing the recovery wouldn't be quick/easy anyways, I took the opportunity > to just build a new classiccmp server VM from scratch. The latest OS, > patches, dependencies, libraries, and ports. This new VM is on the new > production san so there's a pretty fair amount of additional disk space > thrown at classiccmp (and thus bitsavers). It's always amazing when I > revisit this just how many packages/services are on that machine that a > reload from scratch requires. It's been a busy few days/nights. > > Many thanks for this sterling contribution to the community Jay. Terry (Tez) From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Nov 2 17:03:33 2014 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 23:03:33 -0000 Subject: list back up References: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003f01cff6f2$4ec4e9c0$428e230a@user8459cef6fa> Thanks to you and everyone involved in getting the new server and classiccmp lists up and running. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: ; Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 10:39 PM Subject: list back up > The classiccmp server and it's backups were on a temporary san that hit a > bug and rebooted itself. Needless to say, dropping iscsi to a hypervisor is > not a good thing. The classiccmp vm thus rebooted itself, ran fsck, and (as > best as I can tell) the only thing corrupted was the cctalk and cctech > config.pck files (which contain the list settings and membership). The only > backup had the same corruption on it, because it ran the backup before I > noticed the problem. Anyways. > > > > Knowing the recovery wouldn't be quick/easy anyways, I took the opportunity > to just build a new classiccmp server VM from scratch. The latest OS, > patches, dependencies, libraries, and ports. This new VM is on the new > production san so there's a pretty fair amount of additional disk space > thrown at classiccmp (and thus bitsavers). It's always amazing when I > revisit this just how many packages/services are on that machine that a > reload from scratch requires. It's been a busy few days/nights. > > > > Things you should know: > > 1> The membership list for each list was recovered thanks to the hard > work of DBoone. He processed the last few days of maillogs to get the > subscriber lists back. THANK YOU D. > > 2> Given how we had to do #1, it is possible that a few folks that had > subscriptions weren't automatically re-subscribed (someone who set their > membership on 'no email' could be one example). Those folks will notice and > just resubscribe. > > 3> Given the very bizarre way we had the cctalk and cctech lists "joined > at the hip", I do not recall the magic we did to get that working properly. > I am aware that posts from one probably aren't being redirected to the other > like it used to (if at all). I'm working on refiguring that out, and any > suggestions (offlist) would be most appreciated. > > 4> Given that I had to recreate the lists configurations from scratch, > I'm pretty certain that I have some settings different than used to be. If > you find anything different that matters, let me know. > > 5> The "new" classiccmp server is currently hosting the mailing lists, > the classiccmp.org website, plus all websites that are underneath > classiccmp.org (ex. www.classiccmp.org/hp , www.classiccmp.org/cpmarchives , > etc.). Thus, you may notice a different ip address and hostname on the > server. The new name/IP will stick till any future rebuilds. > > 6> The "old" classiccmp server is still up, and is hosting all the > websites that have their own domain name. Time permitting, I'll be migrating > those one at a time to the new server. During that time period - however > long it takes - ftp and rsyncd will not be available to prevent loosing > changes when cutover occurs. > > 7> I do not recall who all the folks were that were helping review/gate > posts between cctalk/cctech. If you were one of those folks, please let me > know asap off-list so I can get you re-added. > > 8> For people who have websites hosted on the classiccmp server, be > aware the new server is running mysql56, php56, and apache24 (with mod_itk). > Before your website is moved, let me know if you're aware of any breakage > that using those new versions may cause. I'd also prefer to transform any > myisam databases to innodb unless you're aware of an issue that may cause. > > 9> Please do not post to the list or email me directly about "hey, the > archives are gone!". They have been preserved, and time permitting they will > get imported back into the "new" mailing list (along with the missing 199x > bits that were recently mentioned). Rumor has it that someone has > volunteered to improve the archive search mechanism in the not too distant > future. > > 10> Many people have asked me over the past year or so to host their > classiccmp-related website, and I pushed them off due to the lack of disk > space. That is no longer an issue so if you're one of the people wanting > that (and still do), now is the time to get back in touch with me. As > always, we'll host any classiccmp-related website free of charge. > > 11> Within the next 30 days (at most) we'll be adding the classiccmp server > to our CDN service. The advantage: I would expect to be able to remove > any/all bandwidth limits previously in place and folks will be able to > download files from the bitsavers master very quickly and your > classiccmp-hosted websites will be a lot more snappy. The downside is, > you'll have to either be ok with it taking a while for new/changed content > on your site to be visible world-wide, or you'll need to take a look at the > api (or via a CDN website login) to invalidate the cache when you change > something. In most cases, this can be easily automated. > > 12> During the mailing list outage, all websites and bitsavers were still > up. It was just the mailing lists that were affected. > > > > I'm sure there's more that I've forgotten. But.. Enjoy! > > > > > > Best, > > > > J > From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Nov 2 17:30:38 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 15:30:38 -0800 Subject: list back up In-Reply-To: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> References: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I'd like to thank everybody who makes this list possible! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 17:43:41 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 17:43:41 -0600 Subject: Hello world! Message-ID: Sorry to hear about the trouble, Jay. Thanks for taking care of the list.. -Bill From brendan at mcneill.co.nz Sun Nov 2 17:34:27 2014 From: brendan at mcneill.co.nz (Brendan McNeill) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 12:34:27 +1300 Subject: list back up In-Reply-To: References: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <39207DFC-FF38-4557-8082-4C47B5401CA3@mcneill.co.nz> Hi Jay How do I get the list to send in daily 'digest' mode again? Presently I'm getting every individual email. Checked FAQ's but no help. Many thanks Brendan > On 3/11/2014, at 12:07 pm, Terry Stewart wrote: > >> >> Knowing the recovery wouldn't be quick/easy anyways, I took the opportunity >> to just build a new classiccmp server VM from scratch. The latest OS, >> patches, dependencies, libraries, and ports. This new VM is on the new >> production san so there's a pretty fair amount of additional disk space >> thrown at classiccmp (and thus bitsavers). It's always amazing when I >> revisit this just how many packages/services are on that machine that a >> reload from scratch requires. It's been a busy few days/nights. >> >> > Many thanks for this sterling contribution to the community Jay. > > Terry (Tez) --------------//---------------- brendan at mcneill.co.nz +64 21 881 883 From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 17:46:27 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 17:46:27 -0600 Subject: Thanks for getting the list up again! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Likewise, thanks Jay! (I did write a 'Hello world' message, but then I saw that a TY thread was already started. Feel free to /dev/null my other one, Jay) On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > I should have written it in my previous post: > Thanks a lot, Jay, for getting the list working again! > > /Mattis > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 2 17:54:50 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 17:54:50 -0600 Subject: list back up In-Reply-To: <39207DFC-FF38-4557-8082-4C47B5401CA3@mcneill.co.nz> References: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> <39207DFC-FF38-4557-8082-4C47B5401CA3@mcneill.co.nz> Message-ID: <009d01cff6f8$6496a3f0$2dc3ebd0$@classiccmp.org> Your welcome email today had your subscription password on it. Go to http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo and select either cctalk or cctech as appropriate. You can log in with your password and change your settings to digest. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brendan McNeill Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 5:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: list back up Hi Jay How do I get the list to send in daily 'digest' mode again? Presently I'm getting every individual email. Checked FAQ's but no help. Many thanks Brendan > On 3/11/2014, at 12:07 pm, Terry Stewart wrote: > >> >> Knowing the recovery wouldn't be quick/easy anyways, I took the >> opportunity to just build a new classiccmp server VM from scratch. >> The latest OS, patches, dependencies, libraries, and ports. This new >> VM is on the new production san so there's a pretty fair amount of >> additional disk space thrown at classiccmp (and thus bitsavers). It's >> always amazing when I revisit this just how many packages/services >> are on that machine that a reload from scratch requires. It's been a busy few days/nights. >> >> > Many thanks for this sterling contribution to the community Jay. > > Terry (Tez) --------------//---------------- brendan at mcneill.co.nz +64 21 881 883 From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun Nov 2 18:28:34 2014 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 16:28:34 -0800 Subject: IBM 7868-047 Modems In-Reply-To: <000301cff6f1$84448cf0$8ccda6d0$@net> Message-ID: <1414974514.99660.YahooMailBasic@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > Ahhh nice to have the lust back! Freudian slip? :) BLS From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun Nov 2 18:37:01 2014 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 16:37:01 -0800 Subject: list back up In-Reply-To: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1414975021.18320.YahooMailBasic@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jay, Allow me to express my appreciation for all you and everyone else involved do to support the classic computing community. Thanks for your hard work getting things back up and running. BLS From bear at typewritten.org Sun Nov 2 18:13:23 2014 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 16:13:23 -0800 Subject: X11R3 source, patches for IBM RT? Message-ID: <5BA5DD3A-AE07-44F7-9796-1507AA009C79@typewritten.org> I'm working on a project relating to the IBM RT, where the original vendor distribution is not available (or hasn't been un-lost yet, and the "supported" release is X11R2 anyway). Do any of the much esteemed list members have in their posession a distribution of the X11R3 source? Preferrably one contemporary to the period when it would have actually been in use? I have the source generously provided by X.org, but it seems a bit poorly curated and I'm not sure of its actual provenance. There are more than a few files which have much newer modification times than I would expect, and very few of the IBM-provided source patches for bug fixes (which I do have) will apply. In some cases the code is not even remotely similar. So... since I've run into trouble with the X server built from this source, I'm looking for a second opinion in the form of an X11R3 source distribution that has a known provenance. Apparently there were also >700k of patches for X11R3 that MIT provided on the RT, which are mentioned in an IBM TSB. Of course now those published sources are no longer active, and I have no way of knowing whether they're already applied to the X11R3 source at X.org. From the IBM TSB: --begin quote-- "Note that X11 release 3 distribution and the improvements made since the release of X11r3 for the IBM RT are NOT AVAILABLE from either the host ibmsupt, IBM's Advanced Workstations Division (Palo Alto), or the ACSC. These are only availble directly from MIT, or other locations on the Internet as described below. The latest IBM/4.3 code (patches, etc.) is available via anonymous ftp from expo.lcs.mit.edu, the file name is: contrib/ibm-rt.r3-fixes.tar.Z The size of this file it is about 730k. The Scheifler et al announcement follows. --end quote-- If anybody knows of an archive where a copy of those patches might be found, that would be tremendous. So far I've come up empty-handed. Everything at MIT I've found is X11R4 or newer. Everybody seems to have been in a big rush to forget the older versions (possibly I could not blame them for that). Anyone? X11R3 source and/or RT patches? Thanks! ok bear. -- until further notice From bear at typewritten.org Sun Nov 2 18:13:23 2014 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 16:13:23 -0800 Subject: X11R3 source, patches for IBM RT? Message-ID: <5BA5DD3A-AE07-44F7-9796-1507AA009C79@typewritten.org> I'm working on a project relating to the IBM RT, where the original vendor distribution is not available (or hasn't been un-lost yet, and the "supported" release is X11R2 anyway). Do any of the much esteemed list members have in their posession a distribution of the X11R3 source? Preferrably one contemporary to the period when it would have actually been in use? I have the source generously provided by X.org, but it seems a bit poorly curated and I'm not sure of its actual provenance. There are more than a few files which have much newer modification times than I would expect, and very few of the IBM-provided source patches for bug fixes (which I do have) will apply. In some cases the code is not even remotely similar. So... since I've run into trouble with the X server built from this source, I'm looking for a second opinion in the form of an X11R3 source distribution that has a known provenance. Apparently there were also >700k of patches for X11R3 that MIT provided on the RT, which are mentioned in an IBM TSB. Of course now those published sources are no longer active, and I have no way of knowing whether they're already applied to the X11R3 source at X.org. From the IBM TSB: --begin quote-- "Note that X11 release 3 distribution and the improvements made since the release of X11r3 for the IBM RT are NOT AVAILABLE from either the host ibmsupt, IBM's Advanced Workstations Division (Palo Alto), or the ACSC. These are only availble directly from MIT, or other locations on the Internet as described below. The latest IBM/4.3 code (patches, etc.) is available via anonymous ftp from expo.lcs.mit.edu, the file name is: contrib/ibm-rt.r3-fixes.tar.Z The size of this file it is about 730k. The Scheifler et al announcement follows. --end quote-- If anybody knows of an archive where a copy of those patches might be found, that would be tremendous. So far I've come up empty-handed. Everything at MIT I've found is X11R4 or newer. Everybody seems to have been in a big rush to forget the older versions (possibly I could not blame them for that). Anyone? X11R3 source and/or RT patches? Thanks! ok bear. -- until further notice From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 2 19:17:57 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2014 17:17:57 -0800 Subject: list back up In-Reply-To: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> References: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5456D7C5.8040408@sydex.com> On 11/02/2014 02:39 PM, Jay West wrote: > The classiccmp server and it's backups were on a temporary san that hit a > bug and rebooted itself. Needless to say, dropping iscsi to a hypervisor is > not a good thing. The classiccmp vm thus rebooted itself, ran fsck, and (as > best as I can tell) the only thing corrupted was the cctalk and cctech > config.pck files (which contain the list settings and membership). The only > backup had the same corruption on it, because it ran the backup before I > noticed the problem. Anyways. Anyways, nothing! Thanks much for the hard work. I can't imagine that it was easy. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 2 19:24:44 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 17:24:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 7868-047 Modems In-Reply-To: <000301cff6f1$84448cf0$8ccda6d0$@net> References: <000301cff6f1$84448cf0$8ccda6d0$@net> Message-ID: <20141102172346.S64525@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 2 Nov 2014, Ali wrote: > Ahhh nice to have the lust back! > . . . > accept standard Hayes AT commands? Or just the IBM command set? Which brings > me to my next question what is the IBM command set? Did IBM ever make anything Hayes compatible? I remember when THAT idea was funnie than getting the lust back! From cctalk at fahimi.net Sun Nov 2 19:43:53 2014 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 17:43:53 -0800 Subject: IBM 7868-047 Modems In-Reply-To: <1414974514.99660.YahooMailBasic@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <000301cff6f1$84448cf0$8ccda6d0$@net> <1414974514.99660.YahooMailBasic@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002901cff707$a145ed60$e3d1c820$@net> > > Ahhh nice to have the lust back! > > Freudian slip? :) Can we please stay on topic - oh wait this is CCTalk ;) But seriously anyone on the lIst have any info on this modem? Thanks! -Ali From cctalk at fahimi.net Sun Nov 2 19:43:53 2014 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 17:43:53 -0800 Subject: IBM 7868-047 Modems In-Reply-To: <20141102172346.S64525@shell.lmi.net> References: <000301cff6f1$84448cf0$8ccda6d0$@net> <20141102172346.S64525@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <002a01cff707$a5819b40$f084d1c0$@net> > Did IBM ever make anything Hayes compatible? > I remember when THAT idea was funnie than getting the lust back! > Ahhh Fred - What is so funny about having lust back? Having the list back is good as well ;) As to your question: the IBM 7855 supported standard Hayes commands. On the lower end the MWave modems, the internal 2400 (XT era), and one of the 5140 modems did as well IIRC. Of course I am far from being an expert. -Ali From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 2 19:57:52 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2014 17:57:52 -0800 Subject: X11R3 source, patches for IBM RT? In-Reply-To: <5BA5DD3A-AE07-44F7-9796-1507AA009C79@typewritten.org> References: <5BA5DD3A-AE07-44F7-9796-1507AA009C79@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <5456E120.9080800@bitsavers.org> On 11/2/14 4:13 PM, r.stricklin wrote: > Do any of the much esteemed list members have in their posession a distribution of the X11R3 source? Preferrably one contemporary to the period when it would have actually been in use? > I have a copy that I downloaded when it was released core.tar.Z copied oct 31, 1988 uc1.tar.Z uc2.tar.Z drwxrwxrwx 11001/102 0 1988-10-26 15:42:15 ./ drwxrwxr-x 11000/102 0 1988-10-26 14:51:21 ./X11/ I thought I sent it to you, unfortunately ftp is down right now. From mcinnisg at bellsouth.net Sun Nov 2 21:12:05 2014 From: mcinnisg at bellsouth.net (Emily McInnis) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 21:12:05 -0600 Subject: Small change in mailing headers Message-ID: Thanks for getting the list going again. Probably not a big deal, but the 'Sender' header now has quotes around the string 'cctalk' and required a slight tweak to my procmail rules. Steve -- From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com Sun Nov 2 22:22:28 2014 From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 15:22:28 +1100 Subject: FCO for KDA50-Q? Message-ID: I have some Emulex SD590 drives which require a controller like the DEC KDA50-Q (M7164+M7165) or KDA50-QA. I found a KDA50-Q controller on eBay, but also discovered that the KDA50-Q has a rather bad (show-stopper) bug that was fixed in later revisions, detailed here: http://deathrow.vistech.net/~cvisors/DEC94MDS/kda50dol.txt >From that description I understand I need either revision D1 or D2 of the M7164 module. What should I be looking for on the board that would indicate it has had the FCO applied? is it an option to re-program the 6 PROMs that appear to be involved? Alternatively, if anyone has the two board set (M7164 and M7165 joined with the 40-pin and 50-pin cables) along with the cab-kit up for sale I would be interested in discussing further. thanks. Ps Thanks Jay for getting cctalk back online, well done! From Tim at Rikers.org Mon Nov 3 03:57:22 2014 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 02:57:22 -0700 Subject: Anyone still playing with HP 1000/2000 minis? In-Reply-To: References: <627D292A-681D-4528-BE35-975077DAD6A0@cs.ubc.ca> <005501cfe531$56955860$03c00920$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <54575182.7050809@Rikers.org> On 10/11/2014 04:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2014-Oct-11, at 1:57 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > >>>> Just noticed recently that the source from 1970 for the single-user HP BASIC >>> has appeared on bitsavers (thanks Al), so working on getting that going now. >>> Nice to have some period software for the machine. Direct link? >>> That was OCR'd from a listing that purchased from HP in 1971 so that I could >>> hack on the BASIC interpreter that was running on the 2114 at my high school. Same source? Got a link? >> Probably Educational Basic HP24160A, there was a special configuration of >> the HP 2114A/B combined with the HP 2748A paper tape reader and a HP 2760A >> optical mark card reader and a HP 2752A Teleprinter delivered to schools and >> Universities. >> The whole combination without the Teleprinter was built in a 19"cabinet with >> a small drawer at the top, it's purpose was to learn children and students >> Basic. >> The Educational basic differs from stand-alone HP 24000A Basic, it can read >> a special kind of marked cards (HP 02760-9051) with basic commands on it. > > Haven't seen any mention or support for the card reader in either the interpreter or the PBS (Prepare Basic System) device configuration .. seems to be the standard version. > > I remember the special BASIC mark-sense cards from the 9830 + 9869A/7261A card reader at the high school I went to. Penfield High, NY where I attended, had a 19" cabinet with an HP-2114B (B?) and a ASR-33 console. There was also an HP-2761A Optical Mark reader, and I'm not sure the printer. At the time I used it, there were 4 "consoles" running and time slicing was done on each line of basic. The card reader was one input, and the printer was the output. The ASR-33 was the only interactive terminal the previous year, but new this year were two crt serial terminals. They were not the HP branded terminals. There was a paper tape punch and a reader. The punch was disconnected and sitting over on a shelf. As I recall there was a dual 8" floppy drive inside the cabinet. There was no login on the terminals. Files starting with an exclamation point where invisible to directory listings. I've not found a time-shared basic that matched this type of configuration. Dick Stover (now deceased) was the systems operator for a number of different schools in upstate New York that ran similar setups. Is the HP24160A you mention a software system? or the bundling of specific hardware? both? Is the BASIC multi-user? There was a grading program in the system that, as I recall, was triggered by a CALL -151 command in basic. Thus a teacher would include the magic card that triggered the app, then include a card marked with the correct answers, then as many cards to be graded as they liked. I don't recall how this was ended. Might have been a special end card. The printer would then print a grade report for each card. All other processing on the other "consoles" would halt until the grading was complete. Then the BASIC time slicing would resume where it left off. I have some partial source listings from back then of the D&D program we were working on. It used a number of "chained" programs to do: map generation, map navigation, battle encounters, inventory management, etc. We had functions to pack and unpack date into floats as I don't recall the BASIC supporting direct integers. I'd be very interested in any source that might be this version of BASIC. I've looked at the Montana State University basic, but this does not look like what I recall. Sources for some of this up on my site: http://rikers.org/hp2100/ check out the "msu" directory. I have: HP-2116A (non-functional, yes, that's an A, not a B or a C) HP-2100A (not powered up) HP-2108A (functional) HP-2112A (functional) HP-7900 (broken chassis) HP-7901 * 2 (never powered up) HP-2748B Paper Tape reader HP-2761A Optical Mark Reader Geek porn: http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware I'd trade it all for a functional HP-2114B :) I loved the touch sensitive switched on that model. I'm in SLC Utah if anyone wants to see any of this. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 3 03:14:28 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 03:14:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: Rebuilding a Hawley Mark II X063X mouse? Message-ID: Over the weekend while moving another project out of long term storage, I also unpacked the Hawley Mark II mouse for my SGI IRIS 1400 since I wanted to see what it might take to repair its cord. When I originally acquired the machine, the outer insulation of the mouse's cord was just beginning to crumble at the ends, but 10+ years later, it has now become extremely brittle and is completely flaking off the cable. The cable they used for the mouse is very small diameter [my mouse has the same cord as this one: http://www.oldmouse.com/mouse/hawley/X063Xvanilla.shtml] and I don't think I would be able to find a multiconductor cable that small to replace it. The individual conductors are still tightly twisted together along with a fiber wrapping of some sort. Since the inner conductors appear to still be intact, I'm considering using heatshrink tubing to replace the outer insulation, but I'm not sure if this would be the best approach or not. In addition, the main ball doesn't turn very well and the rollers/contacts inside the mouse also don't move. I've not yet disassembled it any further than just lifting off the outer cover since I'm not sure of how involved of a project this thing is going to become. [I was initially hoping it would be a minor project to repair the cord but it's starting to look like repairing this mouse may be pretty involved.] Has anyone else rebuilt one of these mice, and if so are there any gotchas I need to be watching out for? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 3 08:00:55 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 06:00:55 -0800 Subject: Anyone still playing with HP 1000/2000 minis? In-Reply-To: <54575182.7050809@Rikers.org> References: <627D292A-681D-4528-BE35-975077DAD6A0@cs.ubc.ca> <005501cfe531$56955860$03c00920$@xs4all.nl> <54575182.7050809@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <54578A97.3080405@bitsavers.org> On 11/3/14 1:57 AM, Tim Riker wrote: > I'd be very interested in any source that might be this version of > BASIC. It should be in the HP software collection in bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 3 08:02:56 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 06:02:56 -0800 Subject: Apple IIC w LCD Message-ID: <54578B10.3070208@bitsavers.org> http://www.ebay.com/itm/161466431402 I'm surprised this only went for $300. Are they not that rare? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 3 08:12:43 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 09:12:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: FCO for KDA50-Q? Message-ID: <20141103141243.1A8F918C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Nigel Williams > I have some Emulex SD590 drives which require a controller like the DEC > KDA50-Q (M7164+M7165) or KDA50-QA. Can one really plug such drives into an Standard Disk Interconnect directly, or is the interface standard merely 'close'? (I don't know, merely raising the question.) > the KDA50-Q has a rather bad (show-stopper) bug that was fixed in later > revisions, detailed here: I'm not sure that's a fatal issue; maybe it just causes the controller to have to re-read that last block? One could certainly write a hack work-around (re-read, extending the transfer size one block). > I need either revision D1 or D2 of the M7164 module. What should I be > looking for on the board that would indicate it has had the FCO > applied? Generally DEC indicates the ECO level by a stamp or something similar on the module handle(s) on the back side. I looked at a couple of M7164/M7165 board pairs which I have (which seem to date, from the date codes on the ICs, to the '87-'88 timeframe - the ECO seems to be Apr '84); the M7165's were both B14, and the M7164's were F4 and J04 (I think - that was on a sticker in the right place, and I don't see anything else). > joined with the 40-pin and 50-pin cables) along with the cab-kit up for > sale The two short cables are pretty generic, from what I can see. Ground plane backing, but other than that, stock 40- and 50-pin flat cables. Those should be easy to make. The bigger issue is the cab-kit, which is almost unobtanium. There's a guy on eBay selling a bunch of NOS UDA50 board sets, which include a cab-kit, which is, I'm pretty sure, the same as the KDA50's - alas, the KDA50 User's Guide doesn't give the part number, so I can't be positive (the UDA-50 one is 70-18455-6K). Alas, he wants a ton of money... > Thanks Jay for getting cctalk back online, well done! Ditto! Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 3 08:24:14 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 08:24:14 -0600 Subject: Anyone still playing with HP 1000/2000 minis? In-Reply-To: <54575182.7050809@Rikers.org> References: <627D292A-681D-4528-BE35-975077DAD6A0@cs.ubc.ca> <005501cfe531$56955860$03c00920$@xs4all.nl> <54575182.7050809@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <00ff01cff771$d89a4df0$89cee9d0$@classiccmp.org> Tim wrote.... ----------- I've not found a time-shared basic that matched this type of configuration. Dick Stover (now deceased) was the systems operator for a number of different schools in upstate New York that ran similar setups. Is the HP24160A you mention a software system? or the bundling of specific hardware? both? Is the BASIC multi-user? ------------ I seem to recall in one of my early hardbound HP systems sales books a listing for a system like this. It was a sort-of timeshared basic, but only used punched cards for input. It will take some digging but I will see if I can find this. J PS - good to hear from you Tim, LTNS! From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 08:52:06 2014 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 09:52:06 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 1, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 15:22:28 +1100 > From: Nigel Williams > Subject: FCO for KDA50-Q? > > I have some Emulex SD590 drives which require a controller like the > DEC KDA50-Q (M7164+M7165) or KDA50-QA. > > I found a KDA50-Q controller on eBay, but also discovered that the > KDA50-Q has a rather bad (show-stopper) bug that was fixed in later > revisions, detailed here: > > http://deathrow.vistech.net/~cvisors/DEC94MDS/kda50dol.txt > > >From that description I understand I need either revision D1 or D2 of > the M7164 module. What should I be looking for on the board that would > indicate it has had the FCO applied? is it an option to re-program the > 6 PROMs that appear to be involved? > > Alternatively, if anyone has the two board set (M7164 and M7165 joined > with the 40-pin and 50-pin cables) along with the cab-kit up for sale > I would be interested in discussing further. > Nigel, I have a KDA50 board set that I plan to install in an 11/83. Unfortunately mine has the E101-E106 PROMs 23-078F6, 23-079F6, 23-080F6, 23-081F6, 23-082F6, 23-083F6. I am interested to find out how to implement the FCO. -- Michael Thompson From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 3 08:55:33 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 15:55:33 +0100 Subject: FCO for KDA50-Q? In-Reply-To: <20141103141243.1A8F918C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141103141243.1A8F918C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54579765.4040708@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-03 15:12, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Nigel Williams > > > I have some Emulex SD590 drives which require a controller like the DEC > > KDA50-Q (M7164+M7165) or KDA50-QA. > > Can one really plug such drives into an Standard Disk Interconnect directly, > or is the interface standard merely 'close'? (I don't know, merely raising > the question.) I know that other manufacturers did make SDI drives. I've had a few in the past. Can't remember what manufacturer, though. Might have been Emulex. Might have been SI... > > the KDA50-Q has a rather bad (show-stopper) bug that was fixed in later > > revisions, detailed here: > > I'm not sure that's a fatal issue; maybe it just causes the controller to have > to re-read that last block? One could certainly write a hack work-around (re-read, > extending the transfer size one block). Most bugs I've ever seen have been minor things that didn't prevent operation. But it might degrade performance, or not provide correct information during error logging and such. That said, I don't know what this specific FCO/ECO fixed. But if it really was a show/stopper, I would expect all KDA50s have had it applied already. > > I need either revision D1 or D2 of the M7164 module. What should I be > > looking for on the board that would indicate it has had the FCO > > applied? > > Generally DEC indicates the ECO level by a stamp or something similar on the > module handle(s) on the back side. Sometimes. I would look for such information, but I would not take the lack of it as a sure indication of it not having a specific ECO level. If it's just firmware, then the only clue might just be the part numbers on the EPROMs. > > joined with the 40-pin and 50-pin cables) along with the cab-kit up for > > sale > > The two short cables are pretty generic, from what I can see. Ground plane > backing, but other than that, stock 40- and 50-pin flat cables. Those should > be easy to make. Yes. Bog standard short flat cables. > The bigger issue is the cab-kit, which is almost unobtanium. There's a guy on > eBay selling a bunch of NOS UDA50 board sets, which include a cab-kit, which > is, I'm pretty sure, the same as the KDA50's - alas, the KDA50 User's Guide > doesn't give the part number, so I can't be positive (the UDA-50 one is > 70-18455-6K). Alas, he wants a ton of money... They are not the same, but you can use it. The cable is the same, but the UDA50 one is usually much longer. However, the mounting plate and kit is different, since the mounting panel style is totally different between Unibus machines and Qbus ones. So you'll probably have to leave the actual plate will probably have to just lie on the ground or something. Less than ideal, but as I said - it will work. Johnny From barryc at rjlsystems.com Mon Nov 3 09:01:05 2014 From: barryc at rjlsystems.com (Barry Callahan) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 10:01:05 -0500 Subject: Apple IIC w LCD In-Reply-To: <54578B10.3070208@bitsavers.org> References: <54578B10.3070208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <545798B1.8040505@rjlsystems.com> On 11/3/2014 9:02 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/161466431402 > > I'm surprised this only went for $300. Are they not that rare? > Well, most IIc's that have sold on ebay recently have gone for $40-50... This Apple-branded flat-panel display recently went for $355, with box. http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/171424543003 From trash80 at internode.on.net Mon Nov 3 02:29:24 2014 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 19:29:24 +1100 Subject: list back up In-Reply-To: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> References: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <005a01cff740$4dda3f30$e98ebd90$@internode.on.net> Thanks for the great job you do Jay and all those who help(ed) you too!!! ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Mon Nov 3 03:20:31 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 09:20:31 +0000 (WET) Subject: IBM 7868-047 Modems In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 02 Nov 2014 15:05:35 -0800" <000301cff6f1$84448cf0$8ccda6d0$@net> Message-ID: <01PEICM77KT2003LGQ@beyondthepale.ie> > >Does anyone have any info or familiarity with this modem? I know some other >IBM LL modems could work over PTSN but had to be set in the right mode. Can >this be done for these modems? Also does anyone know if these modems will >accept standard Hayes AT commands? Or just the IBM command set? Which brings >me to my next question what is the IBM command set? > >Any documentation or guidance is very much appreciated. I would love to get >these guys up and running! > Unfortunately I don't have anything on these particular modems. However, I do have a couple of leased line modems (Nokia I think) which were abandoned by the telecoms provider when the lines were ceased. They were both set up to be clocked from the telco end, presumably to stop the customer from changing the clock speed to see if their line would work at a faster rate than they were paying for. Amazingly, one had a little plastic folder glued on the top containing a booklet showing how to run the self tests and what the jumpers did so I was able to change the settings on one of them to provide the required clocking. When I joined them with two pairs of wires, they seemed happy enough to talk to each other. If you want to use your modems on the PSTN, the first thing to check is whether they require a single pair connection between them or two pairs. My ones have RJ11 type connectors which might give the impression that only a single pair is required but two of the pairs are actually used, one for transmit and the other for receive. It is also possible that your modems are synchronous only which will be a problem if you want to talk to asynchronous only modems. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 06:50:55 2014 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 07:50:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Small change in mailing headers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 2014, Emily McInnis wrote: > Thanks for getting the list going again. > > Probably not a big deal, but the 'Sender' header now has quotes around the string 'cctalk' and required a slight tweak to my procmail rules. > > Steve > > -- ??? How on earth did my post get duplicated under Ms. McInnis' name? -- From janprunk at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 07:24:24 2014 From: janprunk at gmail.com (Jan Prunk) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 14:24:24 +0100 Subject: Vintage UNIX computers/servers for SALE-auction Message-ID: Hello ! Vintage workstations and servers for sale/auction in Slovenia, Europe. Below is the list of hardware, if you are interested, please read the details regarding the sale terms at the end of the list. For anything else you wish to know, please direct all questions regarding equipment to E-mail janprunk-at-gmail.com and not to the mailing list. 3 x HP 712 1 x Switch Hubstack JEHI-24 1 x Power Macintosh 7500/100 2 x SUN Sparcstation 4 1 x HP 9000 PC-308 (XT) 1 x Digital DEC 3000 1 x HP Terminal (monitor) 700/96 1 x Digital DEC 2000 1 x HP 9000 E35 STATUS OF THE EQUIPMENT : Equipment is being sold AS IS, meaning there is no facility to test it ! Computers should be in a working condition, some were even used by me personally, but consider them being sold as a DEFECT, due to its age, limited skills and lack of my time to exclude warranty terms. I am able and willing to provide the photos of the exterior, but please don't ask me to open up the machines to photograph the interior or components, boot up the OS, test the condition etc. I can provide exact model and serial number if that will be helpfull to you. Some computers come with the original hard drive inside and some don't. AUCTION: You are welcome to bid prices for this equipment. To limit the sale to serious bidders, I will only consider bids above 100 EUR per computer, if there are more bids for the same computer I will consider the highest offer. I haven't placed the equipment on EBAY at this time, because that would make me obligated to ship the computers even with a 1 EUR bidding win price and that would just mean too much work and no pay for me. PAYMENT: I am able to accept bank wire as a preferred method, cash or cheque, cryptocurrencies, such as Bitcoin but I am unhappy to accept Paypal due to its refundment policy which always sticks with the buyer. SHIPPING: I would prefer if you can do local pickup, however that might not be possible for people who don't live near Slovenia. I am willing to ship the equipment by mail, but be advised that Slovenia foreign parcel shipping is very expenssive so it wouldn't cost less than 80 EUR to ship the computer across Europe, due to its weight and dimensions. Shipping outside Europe would probably even double the amount, but if you are a serious collector I will also consider that option if you are willing to pay for shipping. I might have the accessories for computers - keyboards, cabling ... but consider the workstations being sold without that, as shipping the workstation + keyboard can be a problem, due to different dimensions and it would need to be packaged into two separate packages, therefore doubling the shipping costs aswell. ADDITIONALS: Keep in mind that bids below 100 EUR would just mean too much work for me to organise the shipment so I would rather not deal with it. I hope that the computers can find a new home with some other collector. For anything else you wish to know, please direct all questions regarding equipment to E-mail janprunk-at-gmail.com and not to the mailing list. I wish you all a happy bidding ! Kind regards, Jan Prunk PGP Pubkey http://prunk.si/0x00E80E86.asc From janprunk at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 07:24:24 2014 From: janprunk at gmail.com (Jan Prunk) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 14:24:24 +0100 Subject: Vintage UNIX computers/servers for SALE-auction Message-ID: Hello ! Vintage workstations and servers for sale/auction in Slovenia, Europe. Below is the list of hardware, if you are interested, please read the details regarding the sale terms at the end of the list. For anything else you wish to know, please direct all questions regarding equipment to E-mail janprunk-at-gmail.com and not to the mailing list. 3 x HP 712 1 x Switch Hubstack JEHI-24 1 x Power Macintosh 7500/100 2 x SUN Sparcstation 4 1 x HP 9000 PC-308 (XT) 1 x Digital DEC 3000 1 x HP Terminal (monitor) 700/96 1 x Digital DEC 2000 1 x HP 9000 E35 STATUS OF THE EQUIPMENT : Equipment is being sold AS IS, meaning there is no facility to test it ! Computers should be in a working condition, some were even used by me personally, but consider them being sold as a DEFECT, due to its age, limited skills and lack of my time to exclude warranty terms. I am able and willing to provide the photos of the exterior, but please don't ask me to open up the machines to photograph the interior or components, boot up the OS, test the condition etc. I can provide exact model and serial number if that will be helpfull to you. Some computers come with the original hard drive inside and some don't. AUCTION: You are welcome to bid prices for this equipment. To limit the sale to serious bidders, I will only consider bids above 100 EUR per computer, if there are more bids for the same computer I will consider the highest offer. I haven't placed the equipment on EBAY at this time, because that would make me obligated to ship the computers even with a 1 EUR bidding win price and that would just mean too much work and no pay for me. PAYMENT: I am able to accept bank wire as a preferred method, cash or cheque, cryptocurrencies, such as Bitcoin but I am unhappy to accept Paypal due to its refundment policy which always sticks with the buyer. SHIPPING: I would prefer if you can do local pickup, however that might not be possible for people who don't live near Slovenia. I am willing to ship the equipment by mail, but be advised that Slovenia foreign parcel shipping is very expenssive so it wouldn't cost less than 80 EUR to ship the computer across Europe, due to its weight and dimensions. Shipping outside Europe would probably even double the amount, but if you are a serious collector I will also consider that option if you are willing to pay for shipping. I might have the accessories for computers - keyboards, cabling ... but consider the workstations being sold without that, as shipping the workstation + keyboard can be a problem, due to different dimensions and it would need to be packaged into two separate packages, therefore doubling the shipping costs aswell. ADDITIONALS: Keep in mind that bids below 100 EUR would just mean too much work for me to organise the shipment so I would rather not deal with it. I hope that the computers can find a new home with some other collector. For anything else you wish to know, please direct all questions regarding equipment to E-mail janprunk-at-gmail.com and not to the mailing list. I wish you all a happy bidding ! Kind regards, Jan Prunk PGP Pubkey http://prunk.si/0x00E80E86.asc From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Mon Nov 3 10:12:26 2014 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 16:12:26 +0000 Subject: Apple IIC w LCD In-Reply-To: <5s5use0193u36oku@hillman.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5s5use0193u36oku@hillman.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7689B64F0@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> I've seen quite a few sell on eBay over the last 10 years or so of casual watching. They're rare, but not beyond obtainability. ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Al Kossow [aek at bitsavers.org] Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 6:02 AM To: General at classiccmp.org; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Apple IIC w LCD http://www.ebay.com/itm/161466431402 I'm surprised this only went for $300. Are they not that rare? From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 13:10:57 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 13:10:57 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues Message-ID: Need some help on this one.. trying to repair the built-in CRT in an Osborne Vixen portable. There's some complexity here, so I'll do my best to be succinct. The unit presented with a vertical line down the screen, and very low voltages on the scan-derived power supplies - the 50V in particular was doing about 18-20V Removed / tested the horiz. opt. transistor (HOT). Neither open nor shorted, but beta measures ~12. Replaced the HOT and scoped the B & C circuits - base drive was +much+ higher (like 10X) level than the output at the collector. So again pulled the HOT and swapped in the only thing I had that +seemed+ it might work: RCA SK9118 (375) - Pt 25W / Vcbo 200V / Vceo 150V / Vebo 6V / Hfe 150 (typ.) Bingo! Display is now bright & crisp, looks great.. but.. the sub. HOT is running way, way hot. Rose to 170F in 2-3 min, and was steadily climbing. And that's in free air, not sealed up in the case. 50V supply came up to 42V.. better, still seems too low. So I think you can see my conundrum, here.. Is the +original+ HOT actually OK, and I'm only masking another problem in the circuit by installing a new part with 10X the gain? Why is the new part running so dang hot - and if the orig. is in fact bad, what killed it, anyway? To make things worse, I can't find +any+ service data or parts list for the display; all I have is a schematic. Nor can I find a datasheet for the original HOT - so I can't tell if it's in or out-of-spec. It's marked "SGS 1070 / 8309". I +think+ the 8309 is for March 1983 but who knows. Any ideas on this one, folks? =) From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 13:14:26 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 13:14:26 -0600 Subject: Documentation for the Osborne Vixen / Zenith display issue Message-ID: Sorry, forgot to add this. The documentation for the Osborne Vixen is at: http://nerp.net/~legendre/osborne/ Schematic for the Zenith display is on p.2 of the schematic (schem) .pdf From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 13:18:55 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 13:18:55 -0600 Subject: Why am I getting mod approval messages from cctech? Message-ID: Every post I make to the general list results in a reply from 'cctech owner' explaining that my post is being held for moderation. I'm not sending my mails to that list, nor have I ever been a subscriber. Anyone else having this issue? From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Nov 3 13:30:46 2014 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 08:30:46 +1300 Subject: Why am I getting mod approval messages from cctech? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, I get that too. Just a glitch which will be sorted out in time I'm assuming... On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 8:18 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > Every post I make to the general list results in a reply from 'cctech > owner' explaining that my post is being held for moderation. I'm not > sending my mails to that list, nor have I ever been a subscriber. > > Anyone else having this issue? > From random832 at fastmail.us Mon Nov 3 13:55:54 2014 From: random832 at fastmail.us (random832 at fastmail.us) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 14:55:54 -0500 Subject: Why am I getting mod approval messages from cctech? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1415044554.2428290.186589189.69EBD433@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Mon, Nov 3, 2014, at 14:18, drlegendre . wrote: > Every post I make to the general list results in a reply from 'cctech > owner' explaining that my post is being held for moderation. I'm not > sending my mails to that list, nor have I ever been a subscriber. > > Anyone else having this issue? I'm having a possibly related issue - I'm subscribed to cctalk but since today I am getting some messages with a list-id of cctech (before today all messages had list-id set to cctalk). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 3 14:09:57 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 20:09:57 +0000 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: _________________Firstly an explanation. I am currently moving house. Well, to be more exact, I am in the new house, as are my classic computers (or what's left of them [1]). But very little is set up. So I am using an rather inconvenient system to post here. I will therefore not be posting as much as I sometimes do... [1] The movers assured me they knew what they were doing and told me I didn't know how to handle computer stuff. Alas they were very, very, wrong. Stuff which I packed and moved (fortunately the rarest machines) has survived. Solidly built stuff like PDPs has survived because it was designed to stand up to minor misuse. But countless keyboad are now missing keycaps (some with broken switches). I have a Pro350 I can't get the mainboard out of because the chassis is twisted (that is probably restorable). ARGH! And that's just the stuff I have looked at. > Need some help on this one.. trying to repair the built-in CRT in an > Osborne Vixen portable. There's some complexity here, so I'll do my best to > be succinct. > > The unit presented with a vertical line down the screen, and very low > voltages on the scan-derived power supplies - the 50V in particular was > doing about 18-20V This suggests to me (along with the overheating new HOT) that something is overloading the horizontal output stage/flyback transformer. Have you checked for shorted capacitors, etc? Have you done a ringing test on the flyback? Normally such faults completely kill the stage, but... > > Removed / tested the horiz. opt. transistor (HOT). Neither open nor > shorted, but beta measures ~12. Replaced the HOT and scoped the B & C It is not uncommon for HOTs to have a very low beta. > circuits - base drive was +much+ higher (like 10X) level than the output at Hang on, the base drive should be something like 0.6V The emitter is grounded, after all. Normally you get HV spikes on the collector. > the collector. So again pulled the HOT and swapped in the only thing I had > that +seemed+ it might work: > > RCA SK9118 (375) - Pt 25W / Vcbo 200V / Vceo 150V / Vebo 6V / Hfe 150 (typ.) I am not convinced those voltage ratings are high enough. Try something like a BU406. My guess, as I said above, is that something is loading this stage rather heavily. Often such a fault will cause display problems, but not always. Check for shorted/leaky capacitors and diodes, shorted turns in the flyback transformer (do a ringing test) and so on. > To make things worse, I can't find +any+ service data or parts list for the > display; all I have is a schematic. Nor can I find a datasheet for the I doubt a service manual would contain any more information. The circuit looks pretty standard and most manuals assume you know how to fix the standard version of . A parts list is likely to just give the house numbers of the transistors -- Zenith loved to house-code everything. -tony From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 15:37:29 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 15:37:29 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony, All, On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 2:09 PM, tony duell wrote: > > > voltages on the scan-derived power supplies - the 50V in particular was > > doing about 18-20V > > This suggests to me (along with the overheating new HOT) that something is > overloading the horizontal output > stage/flyback transformer. Have you checked for shorted capacitors, etc? > Have you done a ringing test on the > flyback? Normally such faults completely kill the stage, but... > Others have likewise suggested that 'something' is loading the circuit. But so far, I can't seem to find anything that doesn't act the way it should.. caps, diodes etc. seem to be fine. But I'll give it another close look. > > > > Removed / tested the horiz. opt. transistor (HOT). Neither open nor > > shorted, but beta measures ~12. Replaced the HOT and scoped the B & C > > It is not uncommon for HOTs to have a very low beta. > I've more or less gotten that impression, but.. do me a favor and take a look at something. Go to http://nerp.net/~legendre/osborne/ and grab the Osborne service manual. There's an appendix with full service data for the +other+ 7" monitor that they used - a Motorola unit. Unless I'm wrong, isn't the HOT in there a Darlington device? Aren't Darls. almost universally high-gain devices? > > > circuits - base drive was +much+ higher (like 10X) level than the output > at > > Hang on, the base drive should be something like 0.6V The emitter is > grounded, after all. > > Normally you get HV spikes on the collector. > If I re-install the old HOT I can re-check it, but IIRC the base drive waveform was like 10X that at the output. This is what led me to try subbing it out in the first place.. why would an amp (configured for gain) have a lower output than input? And since it was clear to me that the opt. waveform was also indirectly responsible for producing the 50V supply, it seemed pretty obvious that a bigger waveform was called for, there. > > > the collector. So again pulled the HOT and swapped in the only thing I > had > > that +seemed+ it might work: > > > > RCA SK9118 (375) - Pt 25W / Vcbo 200V / Vceo 150V / Vebo 6V / Hfe 150 > (typ.) > > I am not convinced those voltage ratings are high enough. Try something > like a BU406. > Nor am I. Frankly, I don't even see how it's working at all, why it didn't over-volt and die right off the bat. But whatever.. who knows what that part +actually+ is? So long as it meets or exceeds the specs on the package, it's acceptable. Perhaps its actual specs are in fact much higher than stated? > > My guess, as I said above, is that something is loading this stage rather > heavily. Often such a fault will cause > display problems, but not always. Check for shorted/leaky capacitors and > diodes, shorted turns in the flyback > transformer (do a ringing test) and so on. > I don't know squat about analog video, or how to perform / interpret a 'ringing test'. Will try searching on that one, but I may need some instruction on the subject. Again, if I just had some dang specs I could ohm-out the flyback, know the actual specs of the orig. HOT, and all that other great stuff that I can't do. > > > To make things worse, I can't find +any+ service data or parts list for > the > > display; all I have is a schematic. Nor can I find a datasheet for the > > I doubt a service manual would contain any more information. The circuit > looks pretty standard and most > manuals assume you know how to fix the standard version of . A > parts list is likely to just give > the house numbers of the transistors -- Zenith loved to house-code > everything. > > Well.. take a look at the service manual. They were good enough to put the full mfr's data for the Motorola in there.. and it seems that the Zenith data was also present. But the appendix section for the Zenith is simply +missing+ from the text! Now how obnoxious is that?? From brad at bettercomputing.net Mon Nov 3 10:28:08 2014 From: brad at bettercomputing.net (Brad @ Better Computing) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 08:28:08 -0800 Subject: Apple IIC w LCD Message-ID: I don't know why but I'd always heard or thought that the Apple LCD was ultra rare unobtainium. ?I remember years ago fights over them going into $1000+. ? Maybe turned ?out to not be so rare? Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Barry Callahan Date: 11-03-2014 7:01 AM (GMT-08:00) To: General at classiccmp.org, "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Apple IIC w LCD On 11/3/2014 9:02 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/161466431402 > > I'm surprised this only went for $300. Are they not that rare? > Well, most IIc's that have sold on ebay recently have gone for $40-50... This Apple-branded flat-panel display recently went for $355, with box. http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/171424543003 From barryc at rjlsystems.com Mon Nov 3 15:43:24 2014 From: barryc at rjlsystems.com (Barry Callahan) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 16:43:24 -0500 Subject: Apple IIC w LCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5457F6FC.3060302@rjlsystems.com> Either that, or people stopped caring so much about apple hardware. On 11/3/2014 11:28 AM, Brad @ Better Computing wrote: > I don't know why but I'd always heard or thought that the Apple LCD was ultra rare unobtainium. I remember years ago fights over them going into $1000+. Maybe turned out to not be so rare? > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Barry Callahan > Date: 11-03-2014 7:01 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: General at classiccmp.org, "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Apple IIC w LCD > > On 11/3/2014 9:02 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/161466431402 >> >> I'm surprised this only went for $300. Are they not that rare? >> > Well, most IIc's that have sold on ebay recently have gone for $40-50... > > This Apple-branded flat-panel display recently went for $355, with box. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/171424543003 > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 3 15:55:25 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 13:55:25 -0800 Subject: Anyone still playing with HP 1000/2000 minis? In-Reply-To: <54575182.7050809@Rikers.org> References: <627D292A-681D-4528-BE35-975077DAD6A0@cs.ubc.ca> <005501cfe531$56955860$03c00920$@xs4all.nl> <54575182.7050809@Rikers.org> Message-ID: On 2014-Nov-03, at 1:57 AM, Tim Riker wrote: > On 10/11/2014 04:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2014-Oct-11, at 1:57 AM, Rik Bos wrote: >>>>> Just noticed recently that the source from 1970 for the single-user HP BASIC >>>> has appeared on bitsavers (thanks Al), so working on getting that going now. >>>> Nice to have some period software for the machine. > > Direct link? This is the link to what (I) was referring to: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/2116/BASIC_Jan70/ >>>> That was OCR'd from a listing that purchased from HP in 1971 so that I could >>>> hack on the BASIC interpreter that was running on the 2114 at my high school. > > Same source? Got a link? There is a missing attribution in the reply quoting, the reply about the source and OCRing was from Guy Sotomayor - Shiresoft . The BASIC being mentioned and linked above however, is a single-user interpreter, not a multi-user or time-shared system ..doesn't sound like the sys you are looking for. 8" floppies on a 2114 sounds very unusual, I've never heard of support for floppies for the 2116/15/14 procs - floppies came after the prime market life of those procs. Don't know if a later I/O floppy interface would have been backwards compatible to the early procs. >>> Probably Educational Basic HP24160A, there was a special configuration of >>> the HP 2114A/B combined with the HP 2748A paper tape reader and a HP 2760A >>> optical mark card reader and a HP 2752A Teleprinter delivered to schools and >>> Universities. >>> The whole combination without the Teleprinter was built in a 19"cabinet with >>> a small drawer at the top, it's purpose was to learn children and students >>> Basic. >>> The Educational basic differs from stand-alone HP 24000A Basic, it can read >>> a special kind of marked cards (HP 02760-9051) with basic commands on it. >> >> Haven't seen any mention or support for the card reader in either the interpreter or the PBS (Prepare Basic System) device configuration .. seems to be the standard version. >> >> I remember the special BASIC mark-sense cards from the 9830 + 9869A/7261A card reader at the high school I went to. > > Penfield High, NY where I attended, had a 19" cabinet with an HP-2114B > (B?) and a ASR-33 console. There was also an HP-2761A Optical Mark > reader, and I'm not sure the printer. > > At the time I used it, there were 4 "consoles" running and time slicing > was done on each line of basic. The card reader was one input, and the > printer was the output. The ASR-33 was the only interactive terminal the > previous year, but new this year were two crt serial terminals. They > were not the HP branded terminals. > > There was a paper tape punch and a reader. The punch was disconnected > and sitting over on a shelf. > > As I recall there was a dual 8" floppy drive inside the cabinet. > > There was no login on the terminals. Files starting with an exclamation > point where invisible to directory listings. > > I've not found a time-shared basic that matched this type of > configuration. Dick Stover (now deceased) was the systems operator for a > number of different schools in upstate New York that ran similar setups. > > Is the HP24160A you mention a software system? or the bundling of > specific hardware? both? Is the BASIC multi-user? > > There was a grading program in the system that, as I recall, was > triggered by a CALL -151 command in basic. Thus a teacher would include > the magic card that triggered the app, then include a card marked with > the correct answers, then as many cards to be graded as they liked. I > don't recall how this was ended. Might have been a special end card. The > printer would then print a grade report for each card. All other > processing on the other "consoles" would halt until the grading was > complete. Then the BASIC time slicing would resume where it left off. > > I have some partial source listings from back then of the D&D program we > were working on. It used a number of "chained" programs to do: map > generation, map navigation, battle encounters, inventory management, > etc. We had functions to pack and unpack date into floats as I don't > recall the BASIC supporting direct integers. > > I'd be very interested in any source that might be this version of > BASIC. I've looked at the Montana State University basic, but this does > not look like what I recall. Sources for some of this up on my site: > > http://rikers.org/hp2100/ > > check out the "msu" directory. > > I have: > > HP-2116A (non-functional, yes, that's an A, not a B or a C) > HP-2100A (not powered up) > HP-2108A (functional) > HP-2112A (functional) > > HP-7900 (broken chassis) > HP-7901 * 2 (never powered up) > > HP-2748B Paper Tape reader > HP-2761A Optical Mark Reader > > Geek porn: > > http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware > > I'd trade it all for a functional HP-2114B :) I loved the touch > sensitive switched on that model. I'm in SLC Utah if anyone wants to see > any of this. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 3 15:59:39 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 13:59:39 -0800 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5457FACB.5080006@sydex.com> I've got the service manual to the Zenith DT2 display (includes a linear PSU); dated 1979 and identified as part of the D12 series of monitors. The HOT is a Zenith 121-1039, which, according to NTE is replaceable by NTE 379. http://www.vetco.net/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=14&products_id=3504 Dunno if that helps or not. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 3 16:02:26 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 14:02:26 -0800 Subject: Apple IIC w LCD In-Reply-To: <5457F6FC.3060302@rjlsystems.com> References: <5457F6FC.3060302@rjlsystems.com> Message-ID: <5457FB72.1000401@sydex.com> On 11/03/2014 01:43 PM, Barry Callahan wrote: > Either that, or people stopped caring so much about apple hardware. They did pull down the over-sized iPhone with Steve Jobs image in St. Petersburg... --Chuck From brad at bettercomputing.net Mon Nov 3 10:28:08 2014 From: brad at bettercomputing.net (Brad @ Better Computing) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 08:28:08 -0800 Subject: Apple IIC w LCD Message-ID: I don't know why but I'd always heard or thought that the Apple LCD was ultra rare unobtainium. ?I remember years ago fights over them going into $1000+. ? Maybe turned ?out to not be so rare? Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Barry Callahan Date: 11-03-2014 7:01 AM (GMT-08:00) To: General at classiccmp.org, "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Apple IIC w LCD On 11/3/2014 9:02 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/161466431402 > > I'm surprised this only went for $300. Are they not that rare? > Well, most IIc's that have sold on ebay recently have gone for $40-50... This Apple-branded flat-panel display recently went for $355, with box. http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/171424543003 From simski at dds.nl Mon Nov 3 13:25:58 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 20:25:58 +0100 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5457D6C6.8000608@dds.nl> check cx111 and cx116/cx117 booster capacitors have a lot of work to do and a faulty one can be the problem here. the original trasistor could be ok as there was ht on the tube. as you mentioned a vertical line, the othe voltages on the tube seem ok, so the capacitors around the crt should be fine. simon On 03-11-14 20:10, drlegendre . wrote: > Need some help on this one.. trying to repair the built-in CRT in an > Osborne Vixen portable. There's some complexity here, so I'll do my best to > be succinct. > > The unit presented with a vertical line down the screen, and very low > voltages on the scan-derived power supplies - the 50V in particular was > doing about 18-20V > > Removed / tested the horiz. opt. transistor (HOT). Neither open nor > shorted, but beta measures ~12. Replaced the HOT and scoped the B & C > circuits - base drive was +much+ higher (like 10X) level than the output at > the collector. So again pulled the HOT and swapped in the only thing I had > that +seemed+ it might work: > > RCA SK9118 (375) - Pt 25W / Vcbo 200V / Vceo 150V / Vebo 6V / Hfe 150 (typ.) > > Bingo! Display is now bright & crisp, looks great.. but.. the sub. HOT is > running way, way hot. Rose to 170F in 2-3 min, and was steadily climbing. > And that's in free air, not sealed up in the case. > > 50V supply came up to 42V.. better, still seems too low. So I think you can > see my conundrum, here.. Is the +original+ HOT actually OK, and I'm only > masking another problem in the circuit by installing a new part with 10X > the gain? Why is the new part running so dang hot - and if the orig. is in > fact bad, what killed it, anyway? > > To make things worse, I can't find +any+ service data or parts list for the > display; all I have is a schematic. Nor can I find a datasheet for the > original HOT - so I can't tell if it's in or out-of-spec. It's marked "SGS > 1070 / 8309". I +think+ the 8309 is for March 1983 but who knows. > > Any ideas on this one, folks? =) > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Mon Nov 3 13:33:20 2014 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 19:33:20 +0000 Subject: Why am I getting mod approval messages from cctech? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5457D880.40704@ljw.me.uk> Yes, it will be sorted real soon now. While you're not subscribed to cctech, everything you post gets cross-posted there and waits for moderation by Jay or me, though right now I can't get in to do it. Lawrence On 03/11/14 19:18, drlegendre . wrote: > Every post I make to the general list results in a reply from 'cctech > owner' explaining that my post is being held for moderation. I'm not > sending my mails to that list, nor have I ever been a subscriber. > > Anyone else having this issue? > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Nov 3 13:49:47 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 11:49:47 -0800 Subject: Why am I getting mod approval messages from cctech? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5457DC5B.7000104@jwsss.com> On 11/3/2014 11:30 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Yes, I get that too. Just a glitch which will be sorted out in time I'm > assuming... > > On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 8:18 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> Every post I make to the general list results in a reply from 'cctech >> owner' explaining that my post is being held for moderation. I'm not >> sending my mails to that list, nor have I ever been a subscriber. >> >> Anyone else having this issue? >> > You can end up moderated for various reasons. Since everything is now reset, it is probably a long process to sort back out which of our email addresses to whitelist. I got put onto moderation a couple of times when Time Warner fiddled with the mail headers, and whoever had charge of the moderation list had to adjust. Usually you don't get a message, but you get a delay of seeing your postings w/o any reason you can see. Also you may not have had an address harvested to reconstruct the subscriber list. Jay said the list had to be reconstructed by someone scanning the posted messages. I am getting messages correctly on both of my feeds. I take a feed of the messages to google, so I can sort them for my internal mail reader. I also have a direct subscription for another computer with a reader, where i post from. The google subscription had died. Jim From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 14:52:58 2014 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 15:52:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Why am I getting mod approval messages from cctech? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2014, drlegendre . wrote: > Every post I make to the general list results in a reply from 'cctech > owner' explaining that my post is being held for moderation. I'm not > sending my mails to that list, nor have I ever been a subscriber. > > Anyone else having this issue? Yup. Same here. -- From cctalk at fahimi.net Mon Nov 3 15:20:54 2014 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 13:20:54 -0800 Subject: IBM 7868-047 Modems In-Reply-To: <01PEICM77KT2003LGQ@beyondthepale.ie> References: "Your message dated Sun, 02 Nov 2014 15:05:35 -0800" <000301cff6f1$84448cf0$8ccda6d0$@net> <01PEICM77KT2003LGQ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <011c01cff7ac$0efad970$2cf08c50$@net> > If you want to use your modems on the PSTN, the first thing to check is > whether they require a single pair connection between them or two > pairs. My ones have RJ11 type connectors which might give the > impression that only a single pair is required but two of the pairs are > actually used, one for transmit and the other for receive. Peter, Not quite sure as how I would determine this. One of the questions I have is if these modems support Hayes AT commands. In quick testing they do not seem to (at least as configured). If they don't then they become pretty much useless. If they at least support Hayes commands one could do further testing and even set them up to be used locally (in house). I am surprised no one has ever run across these guys. I may have to hit up Usenet and the modem groups in there for some help > > It is also possible that your modems are synchronous only which will be > a problem if you want to talk to asynchronous only modems. The only information I have found is at the following link: http://www.cbronline.com/news/ibm_announcements_2_2 Namely: "There are two and four port models with fan-in/fan-out and/or data multiplex functions for both synchronous and asynchronous data terminal equipment to share the same link". I am guessing they can work asynchronously.... -Ali From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 3 16:06:29 2014 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 22:06:29 -0000 Subject: Why am I getting mod approval messages from cctech? References: Message-ID: <00c201cff7b2$b972edb0$b6b4190a@user8459cef6fa> drlegendre: Anyone else having this issue? Terry Stewart: Yes, I get that too. Just a glitch which will be sorted out in time I'm assuming... my responce: I *think* I am somehow subscribed to both lists (I keep getting occasional duplicate emails)! I was originally only a member of CCtalk. I haven't checked to see whether I have been made a member of CCtech yet, will do that shortly... The 'Unsubscribe or edit options' from this page... http://www.classiccmp.org/cctalk.html ... no longer seems to work (I couldn't get the CCtech one to work either). I keep getting a 'problem loading page - unable to connect', but when I try to visit the main ClassicCmp pages, or the mailing list page, it works without any issues. I was able to change my CCtalk settings yesterday using the link from the sign-up email (which I have since deleted). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 3 16:08:02 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 22:08:02 +0000 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > Others have likewise suggested that 'something' is loading the circuit. But > so far, I can't seem to find anything that doesn't act the way it should.. > caps, diodes etc. seem to be fine. But I'll give it another close look. There are basically 2 common reasons for a HOT to run hot (!). One is overcurrent. This generally means something is loading the flyback too heavily. Remember that this is a high voltage circuit and components may test fine on the DMM at a few volts and break down when in the actual circuit at a few hundred volts. The other common reason is that the device is being turned on or off too slowly. The horizontal output stage is a SMPSU (with extras). The transistor should be hard on (saturated) or cut off. If it takes too long to switch between those states it will disipate too much power and run hot. > > It is not uncommon for HOTs to have a very low beta. > > > > I've more or less gotten that impression, but.. do me a favor and take a > look at something. Go to http://nerp.net/~legendre/osborne/ and grab the > Osborne service manual. There's an appendix with full service data for the > +other+ 7" monitor that they used - a Motorola unit. Unless I'm wrong, > isn't the HOT in there a Darlington device? Aren't Darls. almost > universally high-gain devices? I should have been clearer. A power transistor, such as the HOT, often has a low beta. If the circuit requires a component with a high beta then often a darlington pair is used. It would be useful to know what the original HOT was. Have you tried testing the B-E junction of the old part with the diode test function of you DMM? what forward voltage do you get ? If it's 2 diode drops (about 1.4V), it's very likely to be a darlington device. > > > circuits - base drive was +much+ higher (like 10X) level than the output > > at > > > > Hang on, the base drive should be something like 0.6V The emitter is > > grounded, after all. > > > > Normally you get HV spikes on the collector. > > > > If I re-install the old HOT I can re-check it, but IIRC the base drive > waveform was like 10X that at the output. This is what led me to try > subbing it out in the first place.. why would an amp (configured for gain) > have a lower output than input? And since it was clear to me that the opt. Remember that voltage gain isn't the whole story. You might have similar voltages on input and output but a larger current in the latter circuit. That would be an ampifier, giving power (and current) gain. > > I don't know squat about analog video, or how to perform / interpret a > 'ringing test'. Will try searching on that one, but I may need some > instruction on the subject. Basically you resonate one of the flyback windings (out of circuit) with a capacitor. Apply a pulse signal to it (often a little oscillator and a HOT-type of transistor is used). And look at the waveform across said widing with a 'scope. You should see a decaying sine wave. If it decays very quickly (maybe not even one cycle) then something is taking energy from the resonant circuit, most likely a shorted turn in the flyback > Again, if I just had some dang specs I could ohm-out the flyback, know the > actual specs of the orig. HOT, and all that other great stuff that I can't > do. You will never find a shorted turn by DC resistance measurements. The change in resistance is less than the manufacturing tolerances (due to the wire diameter not being exact), contact resistance, etc. -tony From hugh at blemings.org Mon Nov 3 16:48:55 2014 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2014 09:48:55 +1100 Subject: Why am I getting mod approval messages from cctech? In-Reply-To: <1415044554.2428290.186589189.69EBD433@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1415044554.2428290.186589189.69EBD433@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <54580657.3080809@blemings.org> On 4/11/2014 6:55, random832 at fastmail.us wrote: > On Mon, Nov 3, 2014, at 14:18, drlegendre . wrote: >> Every post I make to the general list results in a reply from 'cctech >> owner' explaining that my post is being held for moderation. I'm not >> sending my mails to that list, nor have I ever been a subscriber. >> >> Anyone else having this issue? > > I'm having a possibly related issue - I'm subscribed to cctalk but since > today I am getting some messages with a list-id of cctech (before today > all messages had list-id set to cctalk). Yes, I'm seeing this too - not a problem, simple tweak to a config file to keep mail sorting working at my end, but curious. I am, as always, grateful to the list admins for the efforts! Cheers, Hugh From supervinx at libero.it Mon Nov 3 18:02:12 2014 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2014 01:02:12 +0100 Subject: X11R3 source, patches for IBM RT? In-Reply-To: <5456E120.9080800@bitsavers.org> References: <5BA5DD3A-AE07-44F7-9796-1507AA009C79@typewritten.org> <5456E120.9080800@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1415059332.2250.1.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Il giorno dom, 02/11/2014 alle 17.57 -0800, Al Kossow ha scritto: > On 11/2/14 4:13 PM, r.stricklin wrote: > > Do any of the much esteemed list members have in their posession a distribution of the X11R3 source? Preferrably one contemporary to the period when it would have actually been in use? > > > > I have a copy that I downloaded when it was released > > core.tar.Z copied oct 31, 1988 > uc1.tar.Z > uc2.tar.Z > > drwxrwxrwx 11001/102 0 1988-10-26 15:42:15 ./ > drwxrwxr-x 11000/102 0 1988-10-26 14:51:21 ./X11/ > > I thought I sent it to you, unfortunately ftp is down right now. > > > Hi! Since I own a working RT with two HDs, may I have that copy also? Thanks! http://www.supervinx.com/Retrocomputer/IBM/6150/125/ -- Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) --==ooOoo==-- My computer collection: http://www.supervinx.com/Retrocomputer --==ooOoo==-- You can reach me at: www.supervinx.com www.facebook.com/supervinx http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx http://www.myspace.com/supervinx From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 21:38:50 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 21:38:50 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <5457FACB.5080006@sydex.com> References: <5457FACB.5080006@sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck, my friend... On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 3:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got the service manual to the Zenith DT2 display (includes a linear > PSU); dated 1979 and identified as part of the D12 series of monitors. > > The HOT is a Zenith 121-1039, which, according to NTE is replaceable by > NTE 379. > > http://www.vetco.net/catalog/product_info.php? > manufacturers_id=14&products_id=3504 > > Dunno if that helps or not. > > You may have cracked one of the tougher nuts, sir! Now check this out.. When you quoted the HOT for the DT12 chassis as part # 121-1039, that 1039 seemed an awful lot like 1070 to me. So on a hunch, I punched "zenith 121-0170" into Google - and guess what? The Zenith 121-1070 is in fact a high voltage, high-speed switching transistor. As mentioned previously, it's an in-house Zenith part number, which probably includes several different but similar devices that all fall within the same specs. Per the manufacturer, it is suitable (among other apps) for deflection circuits. A little more searching (eBay helped) turned up that it crosses to the NTE 379 - just as does the HOT in your Zenith DT12! I think it's safe to say that the HOT in the Osborne Vixen Zenith display is a "Zenith 121-1070".. which apparently subs to the same NTE / ECG 379 part. Very slick.. Data sheet for the 121-1070 / NTE 379 calls out a beta of 8-10 min. and 30-40 max. So that leads me to believe that the original 1070 HOT may, in fact, be OK - and the issue is to be found elsewhere in the circuit. It's not a for-sure, as the part might be misbehaving under actual circuit conditions - but at least I have some confidence that we know what it's supposed to be. Thank you.. *** GOLD STAR FOR CHUCK!! *** From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 3 23:25:01 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 21:25:01 -0800 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <5457FACB.5080006@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5458632D.9070203@sydex.com> On 11/03/2014 07:38 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Data sheet for the 121-1070 / NTE 379 calls out a beta of 8-10 min. and > 30-40 max. So that leads me to believe that the original 1070 HOT may, in > fact, be OK - and the issue is to be found elsewhere in the circuit. It's > not a for-sure, as the part might be misbehaving under actual circuit > conditions - but at least I have some confidence that we know what it's > supposed to be. Thank you.. > > *** GOLD STAR FOR CHUCK!! *** No problem--and you didn't even have to argue with Angus to find out. :) If you'd like, I can scan the schematic and parts list, if it would be helpful. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 23:46:06 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 23:46:06 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <5458632D.9070203@sydex.com> References: <5457FACB.5080006@sydex.com> <5458632D.9070203@sydex.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the offer. If you don't mind, take a look at the schematic for the 7" unit (linked above) - and if it seems to jive with what you see in your documents, then yes - I'm sure it would be useful to me. Then again.. even if it's not particularly relevant to this specific case, I'm sure that the 'net would appreciate it anyway, if you took the time to convert it to a digital format. Btw, who is Angus? Do I know you from somewhere else? =P On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/03/2014 07:38 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > Data sheet for the 121-1070 / NTE 379 calls out a beta of 8-10 min. and >> 30-40 max. So that leads me to believe that the original 1070 HOT may, in >> fact, be OK - and the issue is to be found elsewhere in the circuit. It's >> not a for-sure, as the part might be misbehaving under actual circuit >> conditions - but at least I have some confidence that we know what it's >> supposed to be. Thank you.. >> >> *** GOLD STAR FOR CHUCK!! *** >> > > > No problem--and you didn't even have to argue with Angus to find out. :) > > If you'd like, I can scan the schematic and parts list, if it would be > helpful. > > --Chuck > > > From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Mon Nov 3 17:07:18 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 23:07:18 +0000 (WET) Subject: IBM 7868-047 Modems In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 03 Nov 2014 13:20:54 -0800" <011c01cff7ac$0efad970$2cf08c50$@net> References: <000301cff6f1$84448cf0$8ccda6d0$@net> <01PEICM77KT2003LGQ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01PEJ5OZOJD8003LGQ@beyondthepale.ie> >> If you want to use your modems on the PSTN, the first thing to check is >> whether they require a single pair connection between them or two >> pairs. My ones have RJ11 type connectors which might give the >> impression that only a single pair is required but two of the pairs are >> actually used, one for transmit and the other for receive. > >Peter, > >Not quite sure as how I would determine this. One of the questions I have is >if these modems support Hayes AT commands. In quick testing they do not seem >to (at least as configured). If they don't then they become pretty much >useless. If they at least support Hayes commands one could do further >testing and even set them up to be used locally (in house). I am surprised >no one has ever run across these guys. I may have to hit up Usenet and the >modem groups in there for some help > You might have some luck asking on mailing lists etc where IBM mainframe people hang out. Donkeys years ago there used to be a list called IBM-MAIN but I don't know if it still exists or where it is hosted. >> >> It is also possible that your modems are synchronous only which will be >> a problem if you want to talk to asynchronous only modems. > >The only information I have found is at the following link: > >http://www.cbronline.com/news/ibm_announcements_2_2 > >Namely: "There are two and four port models with fan-in/fan-out and/or data >multiplex functions for both synchronous and asynchronous data terminal >equipment to share the same link". I am guessing they can work >asynchronously.... > If they can work asynchronously, it is very likely they only need a single pair telephone line connection. It might be worth opening one up and checking how many conductors are wired to whatever line connector it uses, unless this is already obvious from the type of connector used. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From mstaunton at roadrunner.com Mon Nov 3 21:11:38 2014 From: mstaunton at roadrunner.com (Matthew Staunton) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 19:11:38 -0800 Subject: HP systems AS400 Message-ID: <4EA4F923-2D05-4460-8240-6B778D5A8419@roadrunner.com> I was referred by Jon Johnston at http://www.hpmuseum.net/. he had mentioned this group would be able to assist in sourcing complete AS400 servers with CRTs to some collectors that maybe interested. I would like a museum to have them for their collection or a collector that would use them as functional servers. You can contact me via e-mail or cell 760-703-0986 Thanks for your time Matt Sent from my iPad From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 4 00:39:12 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 00:39:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2014, drlegendre . wrote: > Need some help on this one.. trying to repair the built-in CRT in an > Osborne Vixen portable. There's some complexity here, so I'll do my best > to be succinct. > > The unit presented with a vertical line down the screen, and very low > voltages on the scan-derived power supplies - the 50V in particular was > doing about 18-20V > > Removed / tested the horiz. opt. transistor (HOT). Neither open nor > shorted, but beta measures ~12. Replaced the HOT and scoped the B & C > circuits - base drive was +much+ higher (like 10X) level than the output > at the collector. So again pulled the HOT and swapped in the only thing > I had that +seemed+ it might work: > > RCA SK9118 (375) - Pt 25W / Vcbo 200V / Vceo 150V / Vebo 6V / Hfe 150 > (typ.) > > Bingo! Display is now bright & crisp, looks great.. but.. the sub. HOT > is running way, way hot. Rose to 170F in 2-3 min, and was steadily > climbing. And that's in free air, not sealed up in the case. > > 50V supply came up to 42V.. better, still seems too low. So I think you > can see my conundrum, here.. Is the +original+ HOT actually OK, and I'm > only masking another problem in the circuit by installing a new part > with 10X the gain? Why is the new part running so dang hot - and if the > orig. is in fact bad, what killed it, anyway? > > To make things worse, I can't find +any+ service data or parts list for > the display; all I have is a schematic. Nor can I find a datasheet for > the original HOT - so I can't tell if it's in or out-of-spec. It's > marked "SGS 1070 / 8309". I +think+ the 8309 is for March 1983 but who > knows. > > Any ideas on this one, folks? =) I managed to track down the OEM manufacturer of the transistor, but it looks like you might not need that information now since you've found an NTE cross. According to one of my transistor books, the SGS marking indicates the device was made by "SGS-ATES Componenti Electronici S.p.A.". That company was also known as Societ? Generale Semiconduttori, which merged with Thomson Semiconductor in 1987, becoming SGS-Thomson, which changed its name in 1998 to STMicroelectronics. From evan.linwood at eastek.com.au Tue Nov 4 01:45:16 2014 From: evan.linwood at eastek.com.au (Evan Linwood) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 18:45:16 +1100 Subject: HP systems AS400 In-Reply-To: <4EA4F923-2D05-4460-8240-6B778D5A8419@roadrunner.com> References: <4EA4F923-2D05-4460-8240-6B778D5A8419@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: <000f01cff803$47ffa3c0$d7feeb40$@eastek.com.au> Hi Matthew, I'm located in Melbourne also and would be interested in these systems. I've sent an email to the address listed on the HP Museum website already, I thought I'd let you know as a courtesy. Thanks very much for the notice - Evan -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Matthew Staunton Sent: Tuesday, 4 November 2014 2:12 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: HP systems AS400 I was referred by Jon Johnston at http://www.hpmuseum.net/. he had mentioned this group would be able to assist in sourcing complete AS400 servers with CRTs to some collectors that maybe interested. I would like a museum to have them for their collection or a collector that would use them as functional servers. You can contact me via e-mail or cell 760-703-0986 Thanks for your time Matt Sent from my iPad= From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Tue Nov 4 02:39:57 2014 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 19:39:57 +1100 Subject: HP systems AS400 In-Reply-To: <000f01cff803$47ffa3c0$d7feeb40$@eastek.com.au> References: <4EA4F923-2D05-4460-8240-6B778D5A8419@roadrunner.com> <000f01cff803$47ffa3c0$d7feeb40$@eastek.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Evan Linwood wrote: > I'm located in Melbourne also and would be interested in these systems. > I've sent an email to the address listed on the HP Museum website already, I > thought I'd let you know as a courtesy. > Thanks very much for the notice - Evan I think there are about 4 or 5 die-hard AS/400s fans in Australia, at least based on bids against AS/400s on eBay and a few chance encounters. AS/400s on eBay seems to have dried up in the last 12-months, for a while we were seeing a couple every few months, but none for a long time now. They're one of the least hobbyist-friendly machines you can find so perhaps not that surprising they're in so few collectors' hands. From mazzinia at tin.it Tue Nov 4 03:48:50 2014 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 10:48:50 +0100 Subject: R: HP systems AS400 In-Reply-To: References: <4EA4F923-2D05-4460-8240-6B778D5A8419@roadrunner.com> <000f01cff803$47ffa3c0$d7feeb40$@eastek.com.au> Message-ID: <005801cff814$8a0a9f20$9e1fdd60$@tin.it> Things may change. There are some talks going on with IBM high level managers -current ceo involved- to create an hobbyist program (at least for old boxes).. found out by chance on usenet. Cross fingers... -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Nigel Williams Inviato: marted? 4 novembre 2014 09:40 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: HP systems AS400 On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Evan Linwood wrote: > I'm located in Melbourne also and would be interested in these systems. > I've sent an email to the address listed on the HP Museum website > already, I thought I'd let you know as a courtesy. > Thanks very much for the notice - Evan I think there are about 4 or 5 die-hard AS/400s fans in Australia, at least based on bids against AS/400s on eBay and a few chance encounters. AS/400s on eBay seems to have dried up in the last 12-months, for a while we were seeing a couple every few months, but none for a long time now. They're one of the least hobbyist-friendly machines you can find so perhaps not that surprising they're in so few collectors' hands. From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 4 08:36:03 2014 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 15:36:03 +0100 Subject: Whitesmith C install Message-ID: I'm trying to install the Whitesmiths C compiler under RSX11M using FLX (using the Whiteshmiths c compiler distribution tape V2.25 from bitsavers). Alas, 'FLX' says the tape has zero files and directories, while a dump under Linux shows definitely some contents. I tried both the simh & tpc format, no luck here yet. Am I missing something? The command I used is 'flx /rs=ms0:[*,*]/do' Thanks, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Nov 4 08:55:01 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2014 15:55:01 +0100 Subject: Whitesmith C install In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5458E8C5.20906@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-04 15:36, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > I'm trying to install the Whitesmiths C compiler under RSX11M using > FLX (using the Whiteshmiths c compiler distribution tape V2.25 from > bitsavers). > > Alas, 'FLX' says the tape has zero files and directories, while a dump > under Linux shows definitely some contents. > > I tried both the simh & tpc format, no luck here yet. > > Am I missing something? > > The command I used is 'flx /rs=ms0:[*,*]/do' Have you tried just listing the directories with FLX to see if you see anything? Also, isn't there some installation script for doing the installation? Or are you just expected to copy everything over from the tape? I have never played with the Whitesmith C compiler myself, but I could check it out, now that I know it exists... Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Nov 4 10:13:44 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2014 17:13:44 +0100 Subject: Whitesmith C install In-Reply-To: <5458E8C5.20906@update.uu.se> References: <5458E8C5.20906@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5458FB38.5000901@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-04 15:55, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-11-04 15:36, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> >> I'm trying to install the Whitesmiths C compiler under RSX11M using >> FLX (using the Whiteshmiths c compiler distribution tape V2.25 from >> bitsavers). >> >> Alas, 'FLX' says the tape has zero files and directories, while a dump >> under Linux shows definitely some contents. >> >> I tried both the simh & tpc format, no luck here yet. >> >> Am I missing something? >> >> The command I used is 'flx /rs=ms0:[*,*]/do' > > Have you tried just listing the directories with FLX to see if you see > anything? > Also, isn't there some installation script for doing the installation? > Or are you just expected to copy everything over from the tape? > > I have never played with the Whitesmith C compiler myself, but I could > check it out, now that I know it exists... Just downloaded the file and attached it on an RSX system here, and FLX can access the tape just fine. As an FYI, all files are actually under [1,4] Johnny From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 4 10:41:22 2014 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 17:41:22 +0100 Subject: Whitesmith C install In-Reply-To: <5458FB38.5000901@update.uu.se> References: <5458E8C5.20906@update.uu.se> <5458FB38.5000901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <8e9104e01bcb9ab1d3b9fc75f6682aae.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Well, that is certainly weird. I'll retry again with it again with a new download of the file. Thanks, Ed > On 2014-11-04 15:55, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2014-11-04 15:36, E. Groenenberg wrote: >>> >>> I'm trying to install the Whitesmiths C compiler under RSX11M using >>> FLX (using the Whiteshmiths c compiler distribution tape V2.25 from >>> bitsavers). >>> >>> Alas, 'FLX' says the tape has zero files and directories, while a dump >>> under Linux shows definitely some contents. >>> >>> I tried both the simh & tpc format, no luck here yet. >>> >>> Am I missing something? >>> >>> The command I used is 'flx /rs=ms0:[*,*]/do' >> >> Have you tried just listing the directories with FLX to see if you see >> anything? >> Also, isn't there some installation script for doing the installation? >> Or are you just expected to copy everything over from the tape? >> >> I have never played with the Whitesmith C compiler myself, but I could >> check it out, now that I know it exists... > > Just downloaded the file and attached it on an RSX system here, and FLX > can access the tape just fine. As an FYI, all files are actually under > [1,4] > > Johnny > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From jefferwin at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 09:07:42 2014 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 07:07:42 -0800 Subject: Whitesmith C install In-Reply-To: <5458E8C5.20906@update.uu.se> References: <5458E8C5.20906@update.uu.se> Message-ID: How can I unsubscribe from this list? The threads used to come in once a day or so, now I am getting an email for every response. jefferwin at gmail.com On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 6:55 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-11-04 15:36, E. Groenenberg wrote: > >> >> I'm trying to install the Whitesmiths C compiler under RSX11M using >> FLX (using the Whiteshmiths c compiler distribution tape V2.25 from >> bitsavers). >> >> Alas, 'FLX' says the tape has zero files and directories, while a dump >> under Linux shows definitely some contents. >> >> I tried both the simh & tpc format, no luck here yet. >> >> Am I missing something? >> >> The command I used is 'flx /rs=ms0:[*,*]/do' >> > > Have you tried just listing the directories with FLX to see if you see > anything? > Also, isn't there some installation script for doing the installation? Or > are you just expected to copy everything over from the tape? > > I have never played with the Whitesmith C compiler myself, but I could > check it out, now that I know it exists... > > Johnny > > From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Nov 4 10:57:22 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2014 17:57:22 +0100 Subject: Whitesmith C install In-Reply-To: <8e9104e01bcb9ab1d3b9fc75f6682aae.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <5458E8C5.20906@update.uu.se> <5458FB38.5000901@update.uu.se> <8e9104e01bcb9ab1d3b9fc75f6682aae.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <54590572.30408@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-04 17:41, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > Well, that is certainly weird. > I'll retry again with it again with a new download of the file. I can't remember. Are you on HECnet. If so, I now have the tape there as a virtual tape for RSX... Let me know if you'd like to pick it up. Johnny > > Thanks, > > Ed > >> On 2014-11-04 15:55, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> On 2014-11-04 15:36, E. Groenenberg wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm trying to install the Whitesmiths C compiler under RSX11M using >>>> FLX (using the Whiteshmiths c compiler distribution tape V2.25 from >>>> bitsavers). >>>> >>>> Alas, 'FLX' says the tape has zero files and directories, while a dump >>>> under Linux shows definitely some contents. >>>> >>>> I tried both the simh & tpc format, no luck here yet. >>>> >>>> Am I missing something? >>>> >>>> The command I used is 'flx /rs=ms0:[*,*]/do' >>> >>> Have you tried just listing the directories with FLX to see if you see >>> anything? >>> Also, isn't there some installation script for doing the installation? >>> Or are you just expected to copy everything over from the tape? >>> >>> I have never played with the Whitesmith C compiler myself, but I could >>> check it out, now that I know it exists... >> >> Just downloaded the file and attached it on an RSX system here, and FLX >> can access the tape just fine. As an FYI, all files are actually under >> [1,4] >> >> Johnny >> >> > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 11:02:31 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 17:02:31 -0000 Subject: Whitesmith C install In-Reply-To: References: <5458E8C5.20906@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <02ea01cff851$1f328e00$5d97aa00$@gmail.com> Jeff, You may need to set digest mode. There was a database error and some of the options may have been lost. To adjust your subscriptions go to:- http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk put your e-mail in the last box and hit "unsubscribe or edit options". You may need to set a password to proceed. Dave G4UGM P.S. I copied everyone as others may need to tweak their options. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Erwin > Sent: 04 November 2014 15:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Whitesmith C install > > How can I unsubscribe from this list? > > The threads used to come in once a day or so, now I am getting an email for > every response. > > jefferwin at gmail.com > > On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 6:55 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > On 2014-11-04 15:36, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > > >> > >> I'm trying to install the Whitesmiths C compiler under RSX11M using > >> FLX (using the Whiteshmiths c compiler distribution tape V2.25 from > >> bitsavers). > >> > >> Alas, 'FLX' says the tape has zero files and directories, while a > >> dump under Linux shows definitely some contents. > >> > >> I tried both the simh & tpc format, no luck here yet. > >> > >> Am I missing something? > >> > >> The command I used is 'flx /rs=ms0:[*,*]/do' > >> > > > > Have you tried just listing the directories with FLX to see if you see > > anything? > > Also, isn't there some installation script for doing the installation? > > Or are you just expected to copy everything over from the tape? > > > > I have never played with the Whitesmith C compiler myself, but I could > > check it out, now that I know it exists... > > > > Johnny > > > > From c at meron.cc Tue Nov 4 11:00:16 2014 From: c at meron.cc (Cameron Cooper) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 11:00:16 -0600 Subject: Whitesmith C install In-Reply-To: References: <5458E8C5.20906@update.uu.se> Message-ID: I've noticed this new issue as well. I used to get this list in digest format which was nice. It seems like this setting has been reset for everyone. Cameron On Tuesday, November 4, 2014, Jeff Erwin wrote: > How can I unsubscribe from this list? > > The threads used to come in once a day or so, now I am getting an email for > every response. > > jefferwin at gmail.com > > On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 6:55 AM, Johnny Billquist > wrote: > > > On 2014-11-04 15:36, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > > >> > >> I'm trying to install the Whitesmiths C compiler under RSX11M using > >> FLX (using the Whiteshmiths c compiler distribution tape V2.25 from > >> bitsavers). > >> > >> Alas, 'FLX' says the tape has zero files and directories, while a dump > >> under Linux shows definitely some contents. > >> > >> I tried both the simh & tpc format, no luck here yet. > >> > >> Am I missing something? > >> > >> The command I used is 'flx /rs=ms0:[*,*]/do' > >> > > > > Have you tried just listing the directories with FLX to see if you see > > anything? > > Also, isn't there some installation script for doing the installation? Or > > are you just expected to copy everything over from the tape? > > > > I have never played with the Whitesmith C compiler myself, but I could > > check it out, now that I know it exists... > > > > Johnny > > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 4 11:15:42 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 12:15:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mailing list issues (was: Whitesmith C install) Message-ID: <20141104171542.C523518C0CF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I used to get this list in digest format which was nice. It seems like > this setting has been reset for everyone. Jay made it quite clear that they had totally lost the mailing list configuration, and that they had to re-create the list of subscribers by looking through out-going mailing logs, which would only give them addresses (at least, from simple processing). In other words, all the configuration info had been lost, and people would have to reset things. Now, can we get back to technolgy? Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 4 11:52:43 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 09:52:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: SET DIGEST In-Reply-To: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> References: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> Message-ID: <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> > SET DIGEST Ah, back in the classic days of computers, people didn't understand mailing lists, and sent their mailing list commands TO THE LIST. Are we going back to the way things used to be done? From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Tue Nov 4 12:12:38 2014 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 19:12:38 +0100 Subject: AW: SET DIGEST In-Reply-To: <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> References: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <02d901cff85a$ea8edcd0$bfac9670$@liftoff.at> ... yes, and in the FAQ there ist he wrong mail address fort he robot ... -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von Fred Cisin Gesendet: Dienstag, 04. November 2014 18:53 An: General Discussion: Posts Betreff: Re: SET DIGEST > SET DIGEST Ah, back in the classic days of computers, people didn't understand mailing lists, and sent their mailing list commands TO THE LIST. Are we going back to the way things used to be done? From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 4 12:40:40 2014 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2014 13:40:40 -0500 Subject: Test, ignore.... Message-ID: <54591DA8.5020004@snarc.net> ...Just seeing if I'm successfully back on the list. From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Tue Nov 4 12:42:30 2014 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 19:42:30 +0100 Subject: AW: Test, ignore.... In-Reply-To: <54591DA8.5020004@snarc.net> References: <54591DA8.5020004@snarc.net> Message-ID: <02f101cff85f$16a44680$43ecd380$@liftoff.at> Yes, works -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von Evan Koblentz Gesendet: Dienstag, 04. November 2014 19:41 An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Betreff: Test, ignore.... ...Just seeing if I'm successfully back on the list. From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 4 12:42:45 2014 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2014 13:42:45 -0500 Subject: Test, ignore.... In-Reply-To: <54591DA8.5020004@snarc.net> References: <54591DA8.5020004@snarc.net> Message-ID: <54591E25.5020901@snarc.net> > ...Just seeing if I'm successfully back on the list. Odd: the message went through immediately, but I still got a separate message saying: >>> Your mail to 'cctech' with the subject Test, ignore.... Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. The reason it is being held: Post by non-member to a members-only list From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 4 12:46:52 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 13:46:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Test, ignore.... Message-ID: <20141104184652.AC80318C0CF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> I guess J. R. "Bob" Dobbs' statistical insights were right... Noel From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Tue Nov 4 13:09:04 2014 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2014 19:09:04 +0000 Subject: List commands for digest, unsubscribe etc. Message-ID: <54592450.4000607@ljw.me.uk> There are two ways of managing your list subscriptions. You can use the web interface at: http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/options/cctalk or http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/options/cctech which allows you to log in using your email (*the one you're subscribed on*) and a password, which it can mail to you if required. For those of you who wish to use email, send a message to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org or cctech-request at classiccmp.org with the subject line HELP and you will get a command summary in return. The message body can be blank. Some email commands (put the command in the subject): UNSUBSCRIBE (this will send you a confirmation mail) SET DIGEST PLAIN SET DIGEST MIME SET DIGEST OFF Mailman: http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/mailman-member.html We'll sort out an updated FAQ real soon now. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From Tim at Rikers.org Tue Nov 4 15:33:56 2014 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2014 14:33:56 -0700 Subject: Anyone still playing with HP 1000/2000 minis? In-Reply-To: References: <627D292A-681D-4528-BE35-975077DAD6A0@cs.ubc.ca> <005501cfe531$56955860$03c00920$@xs4all.nl> <54575182.7050809@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <54594644.4010208@Rikers.org> On 11/03/2014 02:55 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > The BASIC being mentioned and linked above however, is a single-user interpreter, not a multi-user or time-shared system ..doesn't sound like the sys you are looking for. No disk support then? > 8" floppies on a 2114 sounds very unusual, I've never heard of > support for floppies for the 2116/15/14 procs - floppies came after > the prime market life of those procs. Don't know if a later I/O > floppy interface would have been backwards compatible to the early > procs. Our admin Dick Stover was quite a guy. He enhanced the BASIC in a lot of ways. I remember discussing having him add true integer variables, but he didn't end up doing that one. I do think he added directly the support for the other terminals and perhaps the call interface for grading. I wish I had a tape dump of his sources, but I suspect they have all be destroyed. This felt very different from the traditional HP TSB experience. I suspect he had no access to that code. Does the single user card based version support storage devices at all? The drives on this system were inside the rack in a locked cabinet. I recall him opening them, removing the floppies and cleaning the drives. We were not allowed to mess with them. No idea what drive they used or what interface. This was around 1978-1981 so there would have been a number of choices including HP-IB. It may have been 5 1/4 inch drives for all I can recall. I have no pictures of the original system, but old friends from school also recall this internal removable drive storage and the "CHAIN" support in BASIC that allowed switching to another BASIC app off disk while keeping variables in memory. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 4 16:02:49 2014 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 22:02:49 -0000 Subject: SET DIGEST References: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <00e301cff87d$141da000$3bbd050a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 5:52 PM Subject: Re: SET DIGEST > > SET DIGEST > > Ah, back in the classic days of computers, people didn't understand > mailing lists, and sent their mailing list commands TO THE LIST. > > Are we going back to the way things used to be done? > Hopefully not on this list, but certainly on Yahoo groups (when it was popular a few years ago) that is exactly how many users tried to unsubscribe from the groups - usually unsuccessfully! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jim at deitygraveyard.com Tue Nov 4 19:31:54 2014 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 20:31:54 -0500 Subject: SET DIGEST In-Reply-To: <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> References: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> SET DIGEST > > Ah, back in the classic days of computers, people didn't understand > mailing lists, and sent their mailing list commands TO THE LIST. > > Are we going back to the way things used to be done? > On nearly every mailing list I belong to the first SET DIGEST or UNSUBSCRIBE command that goes out on the list *always* sets off a storm of requests from other people. :( Jim From shawn-gordon at cox.net Tue Nov 4 20:52:41 2014 From: shawn-gordon at cox.net (Shawn Gordon) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2014 18:52:41 -0800 Subject: SET DIGEST In-Reply-To: References: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <545990F9.3060504@cox.net> usually there are instructions in the footer of each msg. I *was* on digest till the revamp and now I'm getting way more email than I want and I don't know where the directions are to get back to digest mode. I missed whatever email exchange this was. On 11/4/2014 5:31 PM, Jim Carpenter wrote: > On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> SET DIGEST >>> >> Ah, back in the classic days of computers, people didn't understand >> mailing lists, and sent their mailing list commands TO THE LIST. >> >> Are we going back to the way things used to be done? >> >> > On nearly every mailing list I belong to the first SET DIGEST or > UNSUBSCRIBE command that goes out on the list *always* sets off a > storm of requests from other people. :( > > Jim > > From useddec at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 23:51:25 2014 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 23:51:25 -0600 Subject: working? Message-ID: I just got my first message in about a week. Just me or have there been Problems? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 5 00:48:30 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 06:48:30 +0000 Subject: Failed H7864 PSU Message-ID: A little while ago I posted about a H7864 PSU (from an rtVAX 1000) that had failed on me with a loud pop and no apparent physical damage. I discovered which component has failed and it is a large transistor, Q301, but I have yet to find out why it failed. To help, I have been working out the schematic for the area of the PSU that failed, which is labelled Primary Control Module, and situated after the rectifier and before a large transformer that appears to isolate the following stages of the PSU. The aim is of course to use the schematic to attempt to work out the cause of the failure and repair that too before it blows up the replacement transistor or damages some other part(s). The schematic is here: http://1drv.ms/1yBzYTN (png) or here: http://1drv.ms/1xFXUnR (Eagle schematic). I may not have drawn it logically, and may have some bits wrong, as it is quite difficult to derive the schematic and it is easy to make mistakes. I don?t know how to identify zener diodes, so all diodes are drawn as ordinary ones. I was also unable to draw the transformers correctly as I don't know their spec and pinout. I have found some of the capacitors in the circuit to have a high-ish ESR. C407 in particular has a high ESR, C404 has a high-ish ESR, and C303 needs re-forming but I don?t yet have equipment that can produce a high enough DC voltage (should be able to do this in a few days time). My plan is to replace all three of these. Whether these would cause Q301 to pop I don?t know, what do people think? There are also some heat marks around D408 and possibly R415 (both seem to test OK). Are there any other bits of the circuit that I should check that might cause Q301 to pop? Any advice really appreciated! Thanks Rob From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Nov 5 02:20:21 2014 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 09:20:21 +0100 Subject: Whitesmith C install In-Reply-To: <54590572.30408@update.uu.se> References: <5458E8C5.20906@update.uu.se> <5458FB38.5000901@update.uu.se> <8e9104e01bcb9ab1d3b9fc75f6682aae.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <54590572.30408@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Well, it did work, turns out the instruction how to extract the data is ... in the file itself as 'instal.doc' For those who want to install Whitesmiths C, use the following commands to get it done under RSX11M/MP $ all ms0: $ mou/for ms0: $ flx /rs=ms0:[*,*]movemt.cmd/do $ @movemt specify ms0: as the answer, et voila it's done Now it's playing time again Ed > On 2014-11-04 17:41, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> >> Well, that is certainly weird. >> I'll retry again with it again with a new download of the file. > > I can't remember. Are you on HECnet. If so, I now have the tape there as > a virtual tape for RSX... Let me know if you'd like to pick it up. > > Johnny > >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ed >> >>> On 2014-11-04 15:55, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> On 2014-11-04 15:36, E. Groenenberg wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'm trying to install the Whitesmiths C compiler under RSX11M using >>>>> FLX (using the Whiteshmiths c compiler distribution tape V2.25 from >>>>> bitsavers). >>>>> >>>>> Alas, 'FLX' says the tape has zero files and directories, while a >>>>> dump >>>>> under Linux shows definitely some contents. >>>>> >>>>> I tried both the simh & tpc format, no luck here yet. >>>>> >>>>> Am I missing something? >>>>> >>>>> The command I used is 'flx /rs=ms0:[*,*]/do' >>>> >>>> Have you tried just listing the directories with FLX to see if you see >>>> anything? >>>> Also, isn't there some installation script for doing the installation? >>>> Or are you just expected to copy everything over from the tape? >>>> >>>> I have never played with the Whitesmith C compiler myself, but I could >>>> check it out, now that I know it exists... >>> >>> Just downloaded the file and attached it on an RSX system here, and FLX >>> can access the tape just fine. As an FYI, all files are actually under >>> [1,4] >>> >>> Johnny >>> >>> >> >> > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From gareth at amigahistory.plus.com Wed Nov 5 06:08:52 2014 From: gareth at amigahistory.plus.com (Gareth Knight) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 12:08:52 +0000 Subject: SET DIGEST In-Reply-To: References: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <545A1354.60902@amigahistory.plus.com> On 05/11/2014 01:31, Jim Carpenter wrote: > SET DIGEST >> Ah, back in the classic days of computers, people didn't understand >> mailing lists, and sent their mailing list commands TO THE LIST. >> >> Are we going back to the way things used to be done? > On nearly every mailing list I belong to the first SET DIGEST or > UNSUBSCRIBE command that goes out on the list *always* sets off a > storm of requests from other people. :( > I'm surprised we haven't seen a flurry of requests from new users who aren't familiar with mailing lists. Everyone else must be using web forums nowadays. I've just sent a digest request, so pre-emptive apologies if it goes to the list. Gareth From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 4 21:06:09 2014 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2014 22:06:09 -0500 Subject: SET DIGEST In-Reply-To: <545990F9.3060504@cox.net> References: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> <545990F9.3060504@cox.net> Message-ID: <54599421.3040201@snarc.net> > I don't know where the directions are to get back to digest mode Edit your subscription at http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/options/cctalk. From tpresence at hotmail.com Wed Nov 5 07:53:51 2014 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 06:53:51 -0700 Subject: Multiple copies of messages Message-ID: It appears I'm receiving multiple copies of many messages, but not for every post. Any way to remediate this without an unsubscribe? Kevin From simski at dds.nl Wed Nov 5 08:14:42 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 15:14:42 +0100 Subject: Multiple copies of messages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <545A30D2.3070801@dds.nl> /me is also interested in this On 05-11-14 14:53, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > It appears I'm receiving multiple copies of many messages, but not for every post. Any way to remediate this without an unsubscribe? > Kevin > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 08:36:20 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 09:36:20 -0500 Subject: Multiple copies of messages References: <545A30D2.3070801@dds.nl> Message-ID: <10021D63AAE147479FABDD56BC7B179B@310e2> Sounds like you got subscribed to both cctalk and cctech; try unsubbing from whichever you don't want. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Claessen" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 9:14 AM Subject: Re: Multiple copies of messages > /me is also interested in this > > On 05-11-14 14:53, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >> It appears I'm receiving multiple copies of many messages, but not for >> every post. Any way to remediate this without an unsubscribe? >> Kevin > > -- > Met vriendelijke Groet, > > Simon Claessen > drukknop.nl From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Nov 5 08:53:04 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 14:53:04 +0000 Subject: Multiple copies of messages In-Reply-To: <10021D63AAE147479FABDD56BC7B179B@310e2> References: <545A30D2.3070801@dds.nl> <10021D63AAE147479FABDD56BC7B179B@310e2> Message-ID: <20141105145304.GA26913@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 09:36:20AM -0500, Mike Stein wrote: > Sounds like you got subscribed to both cctalk and cctech; try unsubbing from > whichever you don't want. Go on, try to unsubscribe from cctech. I did, and it told me I wasn't subscribed, before pelting me with yet more unwanted cctech traffic. I have a certain sympathy for the situation because I have also provided pro bono services which have sometimes failed catastrophically and left me under siege from users, but I can't pretend that my patience isn't starting to wear a tad thin. From christian.yandell at newstartexhibitions.com Wed Nov 5 07:55:46 2014 From: christian.yandell at newstartexhibitions.com (Christian Yandell) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 13:55:46 +0000 Subject: Multiple copies of messages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9AD6D46F-BD19-451D-B410-3F9CEE381466@newstartexhibitions.com> I would love to know how to unsubscribe? I have no idea why I am even on this list? I am sure it is great, but none of it means a thing to me. Any help to unsubscribe great fully received. Thanks Sent from my iPhone > On 5 Nov 2014, at 13:54, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > > It appears I'm receiving multiple copies of many messages, but not for every post. Any way to remediate this without an unsubscribe? > Kevin From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 5 09:45:30 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 09:45:30 -0600 Subject: list issues & status Message-ID: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> As I suspected and alluded to before, there are issues with the list(s) that were pretty much expected (loss of previous settings of digest mode, as well as cross posting resulting in duplicates, and in some cases posts showing up as attachments). Yes, I am aware of these issues. I just received a post from a listmember about their "patience wearing thin". To that list member, I suggest you unsubscribe completely from both lists permanently. Obviously we're not the best choice for them. My patience is not wearing thin just yet. If yours is. please leave. Given that the list(s) are at least semi-functional, albeit with some issues, I switched gears and have been working to get the websites and other services migrated from the old server to the new server, and am almost complete with that. Should have the last website migrated by Friday as well as a few changes that are needed on the main bitsavers repository. After that, I'll start digging into the remaining issues with list functionality and then finally we'll start dealing with getting the archives imported (along with bits that have been missing for a while). Thanks so much for all your patience folks, we'll get there. Best, J From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed Nov 5 09:39:39 2014 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (LJW cctech) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 15:39:39 +0000 Subject: To unsubscribe... Message-ID: <67a0b036d171a8237e1611419299fbd4@ljw.me.uk> Send an email to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org or cctech-request at classiccmp.org with the subject as follows: (If you're not sure which list you're on, send it to both) To unsubscribe from the address you are mailing from: UNSUBSCRIBE This will send out a confirmation email To unsubscribe from a different address: UNSUSCRIBE mypassword ADDRESS=me at test.com To temporarily suspend delivery of messages: SET DELIVERY OFF (use ON to turn it back on again) To get a full list of commands (for digests etc.): HELP This will include a link to the web page for subscription administration, which may be a better option. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed Nov 5 09:47:50 2014 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (LJW cctech) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 15:47:50 +0000 Subject: To unsubscribe... In-Reply-To: <67a0b036d171a8237e1611419299fbd4@ljw.me.uk> References: <67a0b036d171a8237e1611419299fbd4@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <2cad71464c237fae56a0232342a6f479@ljw.me.uk> Apologies for the typo: To unsubscribe from a different address: UNSUBSCRIBE mypassword ADDRESS=me at test.com On 2014-11-05 15:39, LJW cctech wrote: > Send an email to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org or > cctech-request at classiccmp.org with the subject as follows: > (If you're not sure which list you're on, send it to both) > > To unsubscribe from the address you are mailing from: > UNSUBSCRIBE > This will send out a confirmation email > >>> To unsubscribe from a different address: >>> UNSUSCRIBE mypassword ADDRESS=me at test.com > > To temporarily suspend delivery of messages: > SET DELIVERY OFF > (use ON to turn it back on again) > > To get a full list of commands (for digests etc.): > HELP > This will include a link to the web page for subscription > administration, which may be a better option. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Nov 5 10:40:09 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 16:40:09 +0000 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 09:45:30AM -0600, Jay West wrote: [...] > I just received a post from a listmember about their "patience wearing > thin". To that list member, I suggest you unsubscribe completely from both > lists permanently. Obviously we're not the best choice for them. My patience > is not wearing thin just yet. If yours is. please leave. That was me. I was originally subscribed to just cctalk but now also receive unwanted cctech posts, however the mailman subscription management system believes I am not subscribed to either list and has ignored my attempts to unsubscribe from cctech. This includes a fruitless attempt to subscribe so that there's something to immediately unsubscribe from. It's not as if I haven't *tried* to quietly fix this for myself and not bother you, but it's outwith my power to do so. I suspect if I subscribed you to some of my mailing lists without any means of unsubscription, you'd be likewise somewhat miffed. Perhaps you'd even report it as spam (which it would be!) or complain to my ISP. The "patience wearing thin" was my way of saying I'm annoyed but trying to be restrained because I've been in your shoes. But if I don't highlight that mailman has failed-unsafe, how are you to know it needs fixing? Obviously, as list owner, you can boot me off either or both lists if you so wish; your server, your rules. I'd prefer you not do that though, and apologise for the somwhat brusque tone that I used out of frustration. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 5 11:04:02 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 12:04:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: SET DIGEST In-Reply-To: <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> References: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201411051704.MAA20201@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> SET DIGEST > Ah, back in the classic days of computers, people didn't understand > mailing lists, and sent their mailing list commands TO THE LIST. > Are we going back to the way things used to be done? Isn't going back to the way things used to be what this list is all about? :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tlindner at macmess.org Wed Nov 5 11:08:47 2014 From: tlindner at macmess.org (tim lindner) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 09:08:47 -0800 Subject: Cartridge Cases Message-ID: I recently made a short video about some Color Computer cartridge cases I made: http://youtu.be/OdSOUcd60Ok Enjoy! -- -- tim lindner From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 5 11:16:31 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 11:16:31 -0600 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <01c101cff91c$3ea672d0$bbf35870$@classiccmp.org> It was written.... -------------- Obviously, as list owner, you can boot me off either or both lists if you so wish; your server, your rules. I'd prefer you not do that though, and apologise for the somwhat brusque tone that I used out of frustration. --------------- Nah - youre fine, the apologies in order are on my end. My reply was over the top, my apologies. J From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 5 11:12:29 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 12:12:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Multiple copies of messages Message-ID: <20141105171229.4EC2018C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Peter Corlett > Go on, try to unsubscribe from cctech. I did, and it told me I wasn't > subscribed You ought to grovel through the headers in the incoming email for 'Received' lines; you might be subscribed via a different email address from the one you tried to unsubscribe. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 5 11:49:50 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 09:49:50 -0800 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> On 11/5/14 8:40 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > I suspect if I subscribed you to some of my mailing lists without any means of > unsubscription, you'd be likewise somewhat miffed. As long as people are working on the list, can we fix it so that 'reply' and 'reply list' go to different places? As a reminder to everyone, there is no way currently to just reply to the original poster, and Mr Corlett may be unaware that EVERYONE saw his reply. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 12:03:52 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 13:03:52 -0500 Subject: list issues & status References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 12:49 PM Subject: Re: list issues & status > As a reminder to everyone, there is no way currently to just reply to the > original poster, and Mr Corlett may be unaware that EVERYONE saw his > reply. I think when you reply to the original post the sender's address appears in the Original Message section (unless he/she has opted to suppress it), so it's just a quick cut & paste, no? And while I'm at it let me add my thanks to Jay and everyone else involved in rebuilding and maintaining the two lists (especially cctech). I guess I'm one of the lucky ones; although there still is the occasional glitch all I had to do was log in and re-enable digest mode and all's well once more. From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Wed Nov 5 12:34:37 2014 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 13:34:37 -0500 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <545A6DBD.1080603@splab.cas.neu.edu> Jay, I've trimmed the fat from my reply to make it brief. Thank you for all and everything you do. I don't read everything, but from my point of view you have maintained an invaluable resource. Should you seek donations, please let me know and I'll throw some money at the maintenance. Again, Thank You, Joe Heck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 5 12:35:11 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 10:35:11 -0800 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <545A6DDF.5010206@bitsavers.org> On 11/5/14 10:03 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > it's just a quick cut & paste, no? > Yes, which very few people actually do. The high number of messages that show up on this list which were intended to be private tells me there is a problem with the way it currently works. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Nov 5 12:51:39 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 18:51:39 +0000 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20141105185138.GA434@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 09:49:50AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/5/14 8:40 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: >> I suspect if I subscribed you to some of my mailing lists without any means >> of unsubscription, you'd be likewise somewhat miffed. > As long as people are working on the list, can we fix it so that 'reply' and > 'reply list' go to different places? SMTP/RFC822 don't have such concepts, so that's a MUA-specific extension that lists cannot rely upon unless it's a closed list with known MUAs such as on a homogenous corporate network. The main tunable is whether list software sets Reply-To: the list or leaves it alone. In the former case, replies will normally be directed to the list and it is more faff in many MUAs than it really ought to be to mail just the sender causing occasional embarassment when something really should be off-list. However, leaving it alone means that replies tend to go to the sender and not always to the list as intended. Neither option is entirely satisfatory, but I'm more a fan of the former on the basis that discussions should stay on-list unless there's a good reason to take them off-list, although obviously the best policy depends on the specific list. > As a reminder to everyone, there is no way currently to just reply to the > original poster, and Mr Corlett may be unaware that EVERYONE saw his reply. I had actually intended to post to the list, since I had been obliquely referred to on-list and was replying to that. More importantly, I was describing a problem that was likely to have a solution that other list members would be interested in. (Hence my preference for on-list so that answers help everybody and not just the one person who asked.) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 5 12:53:55 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 10:53:55 -0800 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> On 11/05/2014 10:03 AM, Mike Stein wrote: >> As a reminder to everyone, there is no way currently to just reply to the >> original poster, and Mr Corlett may be unaware that EVERYONE saw his >> reply. > > I think when you reply to the original post the sender's address appears in > the Original Message section (unless he/she has opted to suppress it), so > it's just a quick cut & paste, no? I use Thunderbird for cctalk. Isn't an individual reply just a matter of clicking on the sender's name in the header? --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Wed Nov 5 13:07:17 2014 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 13:07:17 -0600 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141105190717.GC7672@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (11/05/2014 at 10:53AM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/05/2014 10:03 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > > >>As a reminder to everyone, there is no way currently to just reply to the > >>original poster, and Mr Corlett may be unaware that EVERYONE saw his > >>reply. > > > >I think when you reply to the original post the sender's address appears in > >the Original Message section (unless he/she has opted to suppress it), so > >it's just a quick cut & paste, no? > > I use Thunderbird for cctalk. Isn't an individual reply just a > matter of clicking on the sender's name in the header? If the list server sent the mail as coming From: the sender and Cc: to the list, then the reader can do "Reply" to just the sender and "Reply All" to the list. This should work no matter what the MUA is and many MUA have their own settable default for Reply vs. Reply All. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Nov 5 13:09:39 2014 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 14:09:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Nov 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/05/2014 10:03 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > >> > As a reminder to everyone, there is no way currently to just reply to >> > the >> > original poster, and Mr Corlett may be unaware that EVERYONE saw his >> > reply. >> >> I think when you reply to the original post the sender's address appears >> in >> the Original Message section (unless he/she has opted to suppress it), so >> it's just a quick cut & paste, no? > > I use Thunderbird for cctalk. Isn't an individual reply just a matter of > clicking on the sender's name in the header? Some of us are using text-based clients like alpine/pine. On the M.A.R.C.H. list, when I want to issue a private reply, I have to edit the To: line which quotes the original sender's address, but will send to the list if you leave it, as is. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 5 13:12:27 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 11:12:27 -0800 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> Message-ID: <545A769B.5080600@bitsavers.org> On 11/5/14 10:53 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I use Thunderbird for cctalk. As do I. "reply" and "reply to list" buttons in Thunderbird both go to the list, even though "reply" claims to be just replying to the sender. It doesn't work that way on other lists, and if I forget what list I'm on, it does the wrong thing here. From tsg at bonedaddy.net Wed Nov 5 13:12:48 2014 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 14:12:48 -0500 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141105191247.GO11232@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Mike Loewen [141105 14:09]: > On Wed, 5 Nov 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 11/05/2014 10:03 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > > > >> > As a reminder to everyone, there is no way currently to just reply to > >> > the > >> > original poster, and Mr Corlett may be unaware that EVERYONE saw his > >> > reply. > >> > >> I think when you reply to the original post the sender's address appears > >> in > >> the Original Message section (unless he/she has opted to suppress it), so > >> it's just a quick cut & paste, no? > > > > I use Thunderbird for cctalk. Isn't an individual reply just a matter of > > clicking on the sender's name in the header? > > Some of us are using text-based clients like alpine/pine. On the > M.A.R.C.H. list, when I want to issue a private reply, I have to edit the > To: line which quotes the original sender's address, but will send to the > list if you leave it, as is. And some of us use text-based clients like mutt which asks if you want to send to the Reply-To: address(es) if they don't match the From: address. If I say no it goes to the From: address. I can always edit any header field I want though. So it's all MUA specific as someone else said. Todd From charles at uniwho.com Wed Nov 5 13:24:49 2014 From: charles at uniwho.com (Charles Phillips) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 14:24:49 -0500 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <20141105191247.GO11232@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> <20141105191247.GO11232@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <67EA4E6B-AE1A-432B-8315-2EB5E1555236@uniwho.com> yeah i hear ya?. I?m hard core i still use PINE :) On Nov 5, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Todd Goodman wrote: > * Mike Loewen [141105 14:09]: >> On Wed, 5 Nov 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> On 11/05/2014 10:03 AM, Mike Stein wrote: >>> >>>>> As a reminder to everyone, there is no way currently to just reply to >>>>> the >>>>> original poster, and Mr Corlett may be unaware that EVERYONE saw his >>>>> reply. >>>> >>>> I think when you reply to the original post the sender's address appears >>>> in >>>> the Original Message section (unless he/she has opted to suppress it), so >>>> it's just a quick cut & paste, no? >>> >>> I use Thunderbird for cctalk. Isn't an individual reply just a matter of >>> clicking on the sender's name in the header? >> >> Some of us are using text-based clients like alpine/pine. On the >> M.A.R.C.H. list, when I want to issue a private reply, I have to edit the >> To: line which quotes the original sender's address, but will send to the >> list if you leave it, as is. > > And some of us use text-based clients like mutt which asks if you want > to send to the Reply-To: address(es) if they don't match the From: > address. If I say no it goes to the From: address. > > I can always edit any header field I want though. > > So it's all MUA specific as someone else said. > > Todd From charles at uniwho.com Wed Nov 5 13:26:55 2014 From: charles at uniwho.com (Charles Phillips) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 14:26:55 -0500 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <67EA4E6B-AE1A-432B-8315-2EB5E1555236@uniwho.com> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> <20141105191247.GO11232@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <67EA4E6B-AE1A-432B-8315-2EB5E1555236@uniwho.com> Message-ID: <15B1D053-9560-4850-B84C-7A2AE983B22E@uniwho.com> anyone really hard core and still uses Elm? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elm_(email_client) :-) On Nov 5, 2014, at 2:24 PM, Charles Phillips wrote: > yeah i hear ya?. I?m hard core i still use PINE :) > > > > On Nov 5, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Todd Goodman wrote: > >> * Mike Loewen [141105 14:09]: >>> On Wed, 5 Nov 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>>> On 11/05/2014 10:03 AM, Mike Stein wrote: >>>> >>>>>> As a reminder to everyone, there is no way currently to just reply to >>>>>> the >>>>>> original poster, and Mr Corlett may be unaware that EVERYONE saw his >>>>>> reply. >>>>> >>>>> I think when you reply to the original post the sender's address appears >>>>> in >>>>> the Original Message section (unless he/she has opted to suppress it), so >>>>> it's just a quick cut & paste, no? >>>> >>>> I use Thunderbird for cctalk. Isn't an individual reply just a matter of >>>> clicking on the sender's name in the header? >>> >>> Some of us are using text-based clients like alpine/pine. On the >>> M.A.R.C.H. list, when I want to issue a private reply, I have to edit the >>> To: line which quotes the original sender's address, but will send to the >>> list if you leave it, as is. >> >> And some of us use text-based clients like mutt which asks if you want >> to send to the Reply-To: address(es) if they don't match the From: >> address. If I say no it goes to the From: address. >> >> I can always edit any header field I want though. >> >> So it's all MUA specific as someone else said. >> >> Todd > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 13:12:15 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 14:12:15 -0500 Subject: list issues & status References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A6DDF.5010206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2463C9C777E04EE6A7C82E2219E13611@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 1:35 PM Subject: Re: list issues & status > On 11/5/14 10:03 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > >> it's just a quick cut & paste, no? >> > > Yes, which very few people actually do. > > The high number of messages that show up on this list which were intended > to be private tells me there is a problem with the way it currently works. Agreed; it could be more convenient (AFAIK at least in OE you can't just click on the address and have to cut & paste instead). I was just picking nits over your " there is *no way* currently to just reply to the original poster" (*s are mine). BTW, while I'm thanking Jay & co. let me also thank YOU for the enormous contribution you've made to this hobby and community: THANK YOU, AL! From crossd at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 13:41:05 2014 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 14:41:05 -0500 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <15B1D053-9560-4850-B84C-7A2AE983B22E@uniwho.com> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> <20141105191247.GO11232@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <67EA4E6B-AE1A-432B-8315-2EB5E1555236@uniwho.com> <15B1D053-9560-4850-B84C-7A2AE983B22E@uniwho.com> Message-ID: Call me when you find someone who still uses /usr/ucb/Mail or Rand MH. On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Charles Phillips wrote: > anyone really hard core and still uses Elm? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elm_(email_client) > :-) > > > On Nov 5, 2014, at 2:24 PM, Charles Phillips wrote: > > > yeah i hear ya?. I?m hard core i still use PINE :) > > > > > > > > On Nov 5, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Todd Goodman wrote: > > > >> * Mike Loewen [141105 14:09]: > >>> On Wed, 5 Nov 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 11/05/2014 10:03 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>> As a reminder to everyone, there is no way currently to just reply > to > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> original poster, and Mr Corlett may be unaware that EVERYONE saw his > >>>>>> reply. > >>>>> > >>>>> I think when you reply to the original post the sender's address > appears > >>>>> in > >>>>> the Original Message section (unless he/she has opted to suppress > it), so > >>>>> it's just a quick cut & paste, no? > >>>> > >>>> I use Thunderbird for cctalk. Isn't an individual reply just a > matter of > >>>> clicking on the sender's name in the header? > >>> > >>> Some of us are using text-based clients like alpine/pine. On the > >>> M.A.R.C.H. list, when I want to issue a private reply, I have to edit > the > >>> To: line which quotes the original sender's address, but will send to > the > >>> list if you leave it, as is. > >> > >> And some of us use text-based clients like mutt which asks if you want > >> to send to the Reply-To: address(es) if they don't match the From: > >> address. If I say no it goes to the From: address. > >> > >> I can always edit any header field I want though. > >> > >> So it's all MUA specific as someone else said. > >> > >> Todd > > > > From keith at saracom.com Wed Nov 5 13:57:20 2014 From: keith at saracom.com (keith at saracom.com) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 14:57:20 -0500 Subject: Mailing List - Password In-Reply-To: <20141104171542.C523518C0CF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141104171542.C523518C0CF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <455e0eeee10bb30cc2b6e9c490c219b2@saracom.com> Did the user passwords get lost too? I can't seem to be able to go to http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/options/cctalk and set my options. I thought I knew my password but I guess I am wrong and the send password does not seem to work. I posted this to the list as I figure I am probably not the only one. Maybe I am. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 5 14:19:52 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 14:19:52 -0600 Subject: OT: reply-to munging Message-ID: <02c301cff935$db840900$928c1b00$@classiccmp.org> Oh hell. I sure didn't mean to open up that can of worms (the every year or so debate on if replies should be to the list or to the poster). But since it HAS been brought up.... Background for short-timers: There is a recurring debate every year or so as to the reply-to headers setting on the list. The way it works now, when the list sends out list traffic/posts to each of you, it "munges" the reply-to header so that when you hit "reply" to a list post, the reply goes to the list. If you want to just reply to the poster directly (off-list), you have to go through gyrations like hitting forward and typing in the senders email address. Taking off my list owner hat... the following is my own personal opinion on the topic which shall not be dictated upon the rest: I think that's insane, not to mention that I suspect it violates some RFC's and breaks the good intentions/functionality of most MUA's. But regardless.... if the list was set the other (the normal) way... when you get a post you hit reply to reply directly (and only) to the original poster and if you want it to go to the entire list - you hit "reply all". I mean, come on - that's why mail clients HAVE a reply vs. "reply all" button. The only argument I've heard that is vaguely cogent for the current method, is that people will often hit reply with a golden nugget of information and the rest of the list will miss out on that. The argument on the other side of the fence is that having it set the way it currently is causes people to very often post things to the list that were meant to be private. I am of the opinion that the reply-to should be set to the poster, not the list, and let people use their MUA the way it was intended. That being said, I'll defer to whatever the majority of folks wish. On the other hand, this list is mainly frequented by Grumpy Old Men aka Curmudgeons - of which I am most certainly one - and changing this well-entrenched behavior is likely to start a religious war which I want no part of :) So how bout that 10-year rule? ;) J From matt at 9track.net Wed Nov 5 14:22:06 2014 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 20:22:06 +0000 Subject: OT: reply-to munging In-Reply-To: <02c301cff935$db840900$928c1b00$@classiccmp.org> References: <02c301cff935$db840900$928c1b00$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <545A86EE.4020806@9track.net> On 05/11/2014 20:19, Jay West wrote: > I am of the opinion that the reply-to should be set to the poster, not the > list, and let people use their MUA the way it was intended. Agreed. Matt From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 5 14:54:38 2014 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 12:54:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Nov 2014, Jay West wrote: > I just received a post from a listmember about their "patience wearing > thin". To that list member, I suggest you unsubscribe completely from both > lists permanently. Obviously we're not the best choice for them. My patience > is not wearing thin just yet. If yours is. please leave. > Hissy fit cleanup is aisle three! :D Thanks for your efforts Jay. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Wed Nov 5 14:10:52 2014 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt)) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 13:10:52 -0700 Subject: Mailing List - Password References: <20141104171542.C523518C0CF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <455e0eeee10bb30cc2b6e9c490c219b2@saracom.com> Message-ID: I had that issue this morning. Tried to login to cctalk, but password wouldn't work. Nor did I get email from the resend option. Finally went to the cctech side, and had that resend my password. That worked. So I was subscribed to cctech but not cctalk, apparently. (updated my password notes file) Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: keith at saracom.com To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 12:57 PM Subject: Mailing List - Password Did the user passwords get lost too? I can't seem to be able to go to http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/options/cctalk and set my options. I thought I knew my password but I guess I am wrong and the send password does not seem to work. I posted this to the list as I figure I am probably not the only one. Maybe I am. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Nov 5 15:07:58 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 21:07:58 +0000 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> <20141105191247.GO11232@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <67EA4E6B-AE1A-432B-8315-2EB5E1555236@uniwho.com> <15B1D053-9560-4850-B84C-7A2AE983B22E@uniwho.com> Message-ID: <20141105210758.GA3970@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 02:41:05PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > Call me when you find someone who still uses /usr/ucb/Mail or Rand MH. *waves* I was using it yesterday. Because it is so basic, Mail is just the thing for firing one-liners at mailing list managers and the like, without risk of it "helpfully" sending me a copy of the outgoing message as is the habit of other MUAs. I'm not sure I can remember how to *read* mail with it though. From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Wed Nov 5 15:27:28 2014 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 13:27:28 -0800 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <20141105210758.GA3970@mooli.org.uk> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> <20141105191247.GO11232@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <67EA4E6B-AE1A-432B-8315-2EB5E1555236@uniwho.com> <15B1D053-9560-4850-B84C-7A2AE983B22E@uniwho.com> <20141105210758.GA3970@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <2A411508-95C8-4BDB-89F3-B3DDC1719963@fozztexx.com> On Nov 5, 2014, at 1:07 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 02:41:05PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: >> Call me when you find someone who still uses /usr/ucb/Mail or Rand MH. > > *waves* > > I was using it yesterday. Because it is so basic, Mail is just the thing for > firing one-liners at mailing list managers and the like, without risk of it > "helpfully" sending me a copy of the outgoing message as is the habit of other > MUAs. > > I'm not sure I can remember how to *read* mail with it though. I use it all the time too since it?s very handy for system administration duties. It?s quick to load a mailbox to see if something is in it, and it?s handy on the command line to fire off test messages. Plus I have lots of scripts that use it. But I definitely don?t use it as my regular mail program anymore. -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 5 15:29:25 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 21:29:25 +0000 Subject: Moderation Message-ID: Slightly confused as I posted something this morning to cctalk and I got back a message saying my post was awaiting moderation for cctech. I can sort of understand in that I didn't post to cctech, but neither did my post appear on cctalk. Something may not be quite right... Hope this one makes it :-) Regards Rob From random832 at fastmail.us Wed Nov 5 15:46:02 2014 From: random832 at fastmail.us (random832 at fastmail.us) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 16:46:02 -0500 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <20141105185138.GA434@mooli.org.uk> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <20141105185138.GA434@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <1415223962.3228308.187556577.6CE0066C@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, Nov 5, 2014, at 13:51, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 09:49:50AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 11/5/14 8:40 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > >> I suspect if I subscribed you to some of my mailing lists without any means > >> of unsubscription, you'd be likewise somewhat miffed. > > As long as people are working on the list, can we fix it so that 'reply' and > > 'reply list' go to different places? > > SMTP/RFC822 don't have such concepts, so that's a MUA-specific extension > that > lists cannot rely upon unless it's a closed list with known MUAs such as > on a > homogenous corporate network. "Reply to list", where it exists at all, probably uses the List-Post header defined in RFC 2369. SMTP and RFC *2*822 are not the be-all and end-all of mailing standards. (See also RFC 2919 for List-Id) RFC 2369/2919 headers found in your post: List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , There is no standard-based support for rewriting the user's Reply-To header (which practice irrevocably discards the original Reply-To and incites people to, incorrectly, reply to the From header). See also http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html [the Mail-Followup-To header it proposes is not the subject of any RFC] From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 5 15:53:20 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 13:53:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Multiple copies of messages In-Reply-To: <20141105145304.GA26913@mooli.org.uk> References: <545A30D2.3070801@dds.nl> <10021D63AAE147479FABDD56BC7B179B@310e2> <20141105145304.GA26913@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20141105133348.N17622@shell.lmi.net> > Go on, try to unsubscribe from cctech. I did, and it told me I wasn't > subscribed, before pelting me with yet more unwanted cctech traffic. > I have a certain sympathy for the situation because I have also provided pro > bono services which have sometimes failed catastrophically and left me under > siege from users, but I can't pretend that my patience isn't starting to wear a > tad thin. Howzbout: For the next three weeks, let's assume that ALL such problems are being worked on. NO gripes are appropriate until there has been a large amount of time to work on them. Although, itemization of things that are noticed might even help. My patience is waxing thicker. I think that there is a herculean effort afoot to rebuild the system. Augean stable solutions won't cut it. A few specific observations: 1) if you get a bounce or hold message from cctech, inspite of not being subscribed to that list, . . . AIUI, all messages to cctalk are automagically, in addition to posting, handed off to cctech for moderation, to be sent there. (and all cctech messages are automagically mirrored on cctalk) Therefore, even if you are not subscribed to cctech, your messages to cctalk might result in a bounce/hold message from cctech. Eventually, that may get restored to full transparency. 2) Duplicate messages, . . . any messages to one list that then get added to the traffic of the other list might result in duplicate copies arriving. I have no idea how they managed in the past to keep that from happening. 3) list management command processing, . . . there is probably still a lot to do to finish repairing that. 4) unsubscribe requests, . . . It might be necessary temproarily to make unsubscription requests to BOTH lists, since the conjoined nature has been disrupted a bit. Therefore, can we all just put up with some truly trivial glitches, and trust that things will eventually be brought back to the exceptionally smooth operations of the past? Every day, I have to wade through massive amounts of spam that gets right past the "filters" of my ISP, my prcomail, etc. (Since I also have business dealings with strangers and public, a "whitelist" solution is too stupid to consider). Once I delete a hundred spams, having to delete a small handful of duplictae posts hardly seems reasonable to be irritated about, particularly since in the past, it was handled so exceptionally well, and presumably will be again. So, I have no gripes AT ALL until after there has plenty of time to deal with the more urgent and higher priority issues of rebuilding the system. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 5 16:07:05 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 14:07:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: SET DIGEST In-Reply-To: <201411051704.MAA20201@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> <201411051704.MAA20201@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20141105135446.H17622@shell.lmi.net> > >> SET DIGEST > > Ah, back in the classic days of computers, people didn't understand > > mailing lists, and sent their mailing list commands TO THE LIST. > > Are we going back to the way things used to be done? On Wed, 5 Nov 2014, Mouse wrote: > Isn't going back to the way things used to be what this list is all > about? :-) Exactly! For all our wishes to return to the good old days (send me back to the 1960s!), not everything was completely perfect then. Hopefully, we won't make it back to untrimmed quoting of digests, untrimmed flames about failure to trim in top/bottom posting flames, "why am I receiving emails from people that I don't know?", "UNSCRIBE ME!", "STOPE MAILING ME", "people in that political party worship satan", "I was on holiday and got robbed; send money", "have you tried cutting out gluten to cure your cancer?", "the senate has passed a bill to tax email", flaming the owner of the list for strange list behaviors and unfinished repairs -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From radiotest at juno.com Wed Nov 5 16:22:25 2014 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 17:22:25 -0500 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <20141105185138.GA434@mooli.org.uk> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <20141105185138.GA434@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20141105171927.03d29ad0@juno.com> At 01:51 PM 11/5/2014, Peter Corlett wrote: >Neither option is entirely satisfatory ... I just hit the "Reply All" button in my email client and edit the "To" line before I edit the body. That seems to work on any list no matter how replies are configured. Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 5 16:26:25 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 22:26:25 -0000 Subject: Moderation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08c601cff947$896d0010$9c470030$@ntlworld.com> Oops, my mistake, I *did* see my post to cctalk, so it did get there. Sorry for the noise. Regards Rob From: Jarratt RMA [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] Sent: 05 November 2014 21:29 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Moderation Slightly confused as I posted something this morning to cctalk and I got back a message saying my post was awaiting moderation for cctech. I can sort of understand in that I didn't post to cctech, but neither did my post appear on cctalk. Something may not be quite right... Hope this one makes it :-) Regards Rob From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 5 16:32:02 2014 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 22:32:02 -0000 Subject: list issues & status References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A6DDF.5010206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <00ca01cff949$96446fb0$3c44050a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 6:35 PM Subject: Re: list issues & status > On 11/5/14 10:03 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > > > it's just a quick cut & paste, no? > > > > Yes, which very few people actually do. > > The high number of messages that show up on this list which were intended > to be private tells me there is a problem with the way it currently works. > I disagree. It's more likely that they hit 'reply', write the message and before they remember to change the 'to' address they hit 'send'. I have done it in the past. For the vast majority that hit 'reply' the intended target is the list. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From drb at msu.edu Wed Nov 5 16:46:37 2014 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 17:46:37 -0500 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 05 Nov 2014 22:32:02 +0000.) <00ca01cff949$96446fb0$3c44050a@user8459cef6fa> References: <00ca01cff949$96446fb0$3c44050a@user8459cef6fa> <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A6DDF.5010206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20141105224637.E772EA58051@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > The high number of messages that show up on this list which were > > intended to be private tells me there is a problem with the way it > > currently works. > I disagree. It's more likely that they hit 'reply', write the message > and before they remember to change the 'to' address they hit > 'send'. I have done it in the past. > For the vast majority that hit 'reply' the intended target is the > list. The reason this whole recurring discussion is so annoying is because it's a lose-lose scenario: Givens - 1. Sometimes you want to reply to the list, others to the individual 2. No one cares enough, regardless of how much wheedling, cajoling, badgering, ridicule or abuse you heap upon them, to pay attention to wth they are doing when they reply. No setting fixes this, it just chooses between which group gets bit. How about a nice minicomputer discussion? De From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 5 17:10:00 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 18:10:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <20141105224637.E772EA58051@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <00ca01cff949$96446fb0$3c44050a@user8459cef6fa> <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A6DDF.5010206@bitsavers.org> <20141105224637.E772EA58051@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <201411052310.SAA25336@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > 2. No one cares enough, regardless of how much wheedling, cajoling, > badgering, ridicule or abuse you heap upon them, to pay attention to > wth they are doing when they reply. Eh. That's at least a bit unfair to people who _do_ care enough to do that - I offer myself as an existence-proof-by-example. They're just not part of the precipitate; they make sure mail goes where they want and don't get bent out of shape about having to do so, so you don't hear from them on the subject much. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 5 17:19:28 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 18:19:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <20141105210758.GA3970@mooli.org.uk> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> <20141105191247.GO11232@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <67EA4E6B-AE1A-432B-8315-2EB5E1555236@uniwho.com> <15B1D053-9560-4850-B84C-7A2AE983B22E@uniwho.com> <20141105210758.GA3970@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <201411052319.SAA05339@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Call me when you find someone who still uses /usr/ucb/Mail or Rand >> MH. > *waves* Depending on exactly what you mean, I might count. I don't actually use either much, but I do use my own UA, and it's very MHish in design: one file per message, one program run per operation (well, sometimes more, depending on the operation, but definitely not monolithic-UA way of one long-running process doing lots of different things). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 5 17:23:25 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 15:23:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <67EA4E6B-AE1A-432B-8315-2EB5E1555236@uniwho.com> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> <20141105191247.GO11232@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <67EA4E6B-AE1A-432B-8315-2EB5E1555236@uniwho.com> Message-ID: <20141105152210.A17622@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Nov 2014, Charles Phillips wrote: > yeah i hear ya?. I?m hard core i still use PINE :) I'm old, decrepit, and ignorant, and I sue it also. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From crossd at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 15:34:14 2014 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 16:34:14 -0500 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <2A411508-95C8-4BDB-89F3-B3DDC1719963@fozztexx.com> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> <20141105191247.GO11232@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <67EA4E6B-AE1A-432B-8315-2EB5E1555236@uniwho.com> <15B1D053-9560-4850-B84C-7A2AE983B22E@uniwho.com> <20141105210758.GA3970@mooli.org.uk> <2A411508-95C8-4BDB-89F3-B3DDC1719963@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Chris Osborn wrote: > On Nov 5, 2014, at 1:07 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 02:41:05PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > >> Call me when you find someone who still uses /usr/ucb/Mail or Rand MH. > > > > *waves* > > > > I was using it yesterday. Because it is so basic, Mail is just the thing for > > firing one-liners at mailing list managers and the like, without risk of it > > "helpfully" sending me a copy of the outgoing message as is the habit of other > > MUAs. > > > > I'm not sure I can remember how to *read* mail with it though. > > I use it all the time too since it?s very handy for system administration duties. It?s quick to load a mailbox to see if something is in it, and it?s handy on the command line to fire off test messages. Plus I have lots of scripts that use it. But I definitely don?t use it as my regular mail program anymore. *applause* But you guys are being entirely too clever for me; I meant "when you use it as your primary means to send and receive email." MH I could see (via e.g. nmh) but Mail? Surely you jest. :-) - Dan C. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Nov 5 16:01:56 2014 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 14:01:56 -0800 Subject: Mailing List - Password In-Reply-To: <455e0eeee10bb30cc2b6e9c490c219b2@saracom.com> References: <20141104171542.C523518C0CF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <455e0eeee10bb30cc2b6e9c490c219b2@saracom.com> Message-ID: <20141105140156.5141236c@asrock.bcwi.net> On Wed, 05 Nov 2014 14:57:20 -0500 keith at saracom.com wrote: > > > Did the user passwords get lost too? I can't seem to be able to go to > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/options/cctalk and set my options. I > thought I knew my password but I guess I am wrong and the send > password does not seem to work. I posted this to the list as I figure > I am probably not the only one. Maybe I am. > I had the same problem... Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From tpresence at hotmail.com Wed Nov 5 17:07:45 2014 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 16:07:45 -0700 Subject: Multiple copies of messages In-Reply-To: <10021D63AAE147479FABDD56BC7B179B@310e2> References: , <545A30D2.3070801@dds.nl>, <10021D63AAE147479FABDD56BC7B179B@310e2> Message-ID: I wish this were true, but all messages are coming from CCTALK. No CCTECH whatsoever. > From: mhs.stein at gmail.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Multiple copies of messages > Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 09:36:20 -0500 > > Sounds like you got subscribed to both cctalk and cctech; try unsubbing from > whichever you don't want. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Simon Claessen" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 9:14 AM > Subject: Re: Multiple copies of messages > > > > /me is also interested in this > > > > On 05-11-14 14:53, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > >> It appears I'm receiving multiple copies of many messages, but not for > >> every post. Any way to remediate this without an unsubscribe? > >> Kevin > > > > -- > > Met vriendelijke Groet, > > > > Simon Claessen > > drukknop.nl > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 17:10:48 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 18:10:48 -0500 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <20141105210758.GA3970@mooli.org.uk> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> <20141105191247.GO11232@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <67EA4E6B-AE1A-432B-8315-2EB5E1555236@uniwho.com> <15B1D053-9560-4850-B84C-7A2AE983B22E@uniwho.com> <20141105210758.GA3970@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: I tried using mail(1) on 2.11BSD the other day. It had some nice features that I never paid attention to in the past. Seemed actually quite functional. I wanna try living with it for a week, just for hubris / bragging rights. On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 4:07 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 02:41:05PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > Call me when you find someone who still uses /usr/ucb/Mail or Rand MH. > > *waves* > > I was using it yesterday. Because it is so basic, Mail is just the thing > for > firing one-liners at mailing list managers and the like, without risk of it > "helpfully" sending me a copy of the outgoing message as is the habit of > other > MUAs. > > I'm not sure I can remember how to *read* mail with it though. > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 5 17:31:45 2014 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 15:31:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <20141105152210.A17622@shell.lmi.net> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> <20141105191247.GO11232@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <67EA4E6B-AE1A-432B-8315-2EB5E1555236@uniwho.com> <20141105152210.A17622@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Nov 2014, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 5 Nov 2014, Charles Phillips wrote: >> yeah i hear ya?. I?m hard core i still use PINE :) > > I'm old, decrepit, and ignorant, and I sue it also. > Barbarians. Alpine! :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From shawn-gordon at cox.net Wed Nov 5 17:46:19 2014 From: shawn-gordon at cox.net (Shawn Gordon) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 15:46:19 -0800 Subject: SET DIGEST In-Reply-To: References: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> <545990F9.3060504@cox.net> Message-ID: <545AB6CB.20203@cox.net> never set a password. usually you can send an email to change your settings. I haven't used Mailman in ages. On 11/4/2014 7:06 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> I don't know where the directions are to get back to digest mode > > Edit your subscription at > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/options/cctalk. > From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 5 18:09:56 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 18:09:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT: reply-to munging In-Reply-To: <02c301cff935$db840900$928c1b00$@classiccmp.org> References: <02c301cff935$db840900$928c1b00$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Nov 2014, Jay West wrote: > Background for short-timers: There is a recurring debate every year or so as > to the reply-to headers setting on the list. The way it works now, when the > list sends out list traffic/posts to each of you, it "munges" the reply-to > header so that when you hit "reply" to a list post, the reply goes to the > list. If you want to just reply to the poster directly (off-list), you have > to go through gyrations like hitting forward and typing in the senders email > address. > > Taking off my list owner hat... the following is my own personal opinion on > the topic which shall not be dictated upon the rest: > > I think that's insane, not to mention that I suspect it violates some RFC's > and breaks the good intentions/functionality of most MUA's. But > regardless.... if the list was set the other (the normal) way... when you > get a post you hit reply to reply directly (and only) to the original poster > and if you want it to go to the entire list - you hit "reply all". I mean, > come on - that's why mail clients HAVE a reply vs. "reply all" button. > > The only argument I've heard that is vaguely cogent for the current method, > is that people will often hit reply with a golden nugget of information and > the rest of the list will miss out on that. The argument on the other side > of the fence is that having it set the way it currently is causes people to > very often post things to the list that were meant to be private. > > I am of the opinion that the reply-to should be set to the poster, not the > list, and let people use their MUA the way it was intended. That being said, > I'll defer to whatever the majority of folks wish. On the other hand, this > list is mainly frequented by Grumpy Old Men aka Curmudgeons - of which I am > most certainly one - and changing this well-entrenched behavior is likely to > start a religious war which I want no part of :) Jay, Keep in mind that for many of us with text-based clients using hotkeys, changing anything that changes the behavior of the email client's reply prompts is going to cause headaches with replies being sent to the wrong reply address. Any idea when the last time the reply/reply-to/etc reply-type headers were changed? I noticed recently after not posting in quite a long time that I'm sometimes missending replies to the original poster instead of the list. I'm using the same email client and the hotkeys for replying are pretty much done from muscle memory, but perhaps the Alpine/Re-Alpine developers made some changes that I missed. In short, if I want to reply just to the list, I press 'R', 'Y', 'Y' and the To: field is (should be) correct for me to reply to the list. Similarly, if I want to reply to the original poster directly, I press 'R', 'Y', 'N', 'N'. When I press 'R' to reply in Re-Alpine, these are the prompts I get for cctalk: Include original message in Reply (using "> ")? 'Y' Use "Reply-To:" address instead of "From:" address? 'Y' To : "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" --OR-- (I think this depends on the original poster's client sending a Reply-To: header?) To : originial.poster at example.com, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 'N' Reply to all recipients? 'Y' To : Original Poster Cc : "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 'N' To : Original Poster From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 19:55:28 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 19:55:28 -0600 Subject: SET DIGEST In-Reply-To: <20141105135446.H17622@shell.lmi.net> References: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> <201411051704.MAA20201@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141105135446.H17622@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <545AD510.4030900@gmail.com> On 11/05/2014 04:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Hopefully, we won't make it back to untrimmed quoting of digests, > untrimmed flames about failure to trim in top/bottom posting flames, > "why am I receiving emails from people that I don't know?", > "UNSCRIBE ME!", > "STOPE MAILING ME", > "people in that political party worship satan", > "I was on holiday and got robbed; send money", > "have you tried cutting out gluten to cure your cancer?", > "the senate has passed a bill to tax email", > flaming the owner of the list for strange list behaviors and unfinished > repairs We're long overdue a cars vs. guns discussion, too. And some ASCII art. From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 19:58:37 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 19:58:37 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks like we're mostly over the hump with the list breakage, so it's time to post an update on this. Our friend Chuck cracked the first nut, by essentially solving the mystery of the HOT. Turns out that the "1070" marking is an abbreviated Zenith in-house part number; the full version is 121-1070. Also turns out that the 121-1070, like the Zenith 121-1039 in his 12" display apparently crosses to an NTE 379, which itself may effectively be a BU408. Again, a big round of thanks for Chuck on this work.. score one for the flame of knowledge. So based on the specs of the NTE 379 with an avg, beta of 18-24 (min. 6/8 / max. 30/40), the extant HOT (1070) with a measured beta of 11-12 may actually be in-spec, albeit on the very low side. But an average of ~18-24 is a far cry from the 150 of the unit in-use.. so that leads me to a question, of course. The HOT basically acts as a switch in this application - it's really an on/off proposition vs. linear amplification. So why is it that the original HOT wasn't able to transition to a sufficiently low C-E resistance to do the job? For some reason, I have the odd feeling that this is due to a lack of base drive, rather than an excessive load imposed by either the HV supply, yoke and/or the derived tertiary supplies (15V, 50V). Here's my line of logic: The beta / Hfe / gain doesn't really matter - if the HOT saturates, it saturates and falls to a very low C-E resistance. The sub part (NTE 375, which is a +vertical+ opt. part) is obviously saturating, as we're getting plenty of deflection & output from all the supplies. If the original 1070 doesn't produce the same results, then it seems the the reasons are pretty limited... It can't be due to excessive loading by the tertiary or HV supplies, as those can only rise as high as a saturated HOT will allow. +It's not as if the NTE 375 has any significantly lower "on" resistance than the 1070 could, if both are saturated, right?+ So then, if the various supplies & deflection are OK with the 375, there's nothing a "better" or "stronger" HOT could do to increase those levels - see my logic? This points to only one (well, two) possibilities: Either the base drive is inadequate to saturate the low-gain 1070 (yet fine to saturate the NTE 375, with 10X the gain) -OR- there is some defect in the 1070 itself that's squelching what would otherwise be an adequate base drive - i.e. its input impedance has somehow fallen very low, and way out of spec such that it's killing the drive. Your comments are not only appreciated, but basically required.. ;-) On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 12:39 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Mon, 3 Nov 2014, drlegendre . wrote: > > Need some help on this one.. trying to repair the built-in CRT in an >> Osborne Vixen portable. There's some complexity here, so I'll do my best to >> be succinct. >> >> The unit presented with a vertical line down the screen, and very low >> voltages on the scan-derived power supplies - the 50V in particular was >> doing about 18-20V >> >> Removed / tested the horiz. opt. transistor (HOT). Neither open nor >> shorted, but beta measures ~12. Replaced the HOT and scoped the B & C >> circuits - base drive was +much+ higher (like 10X) level than the output at >> the collector. So again pulled the HOT and swapped in the only thing I had >> that +seemed+ it might work: >> >> RCA SK9118 (375) - Pt 25W / Vcbo 200V / Vceo 150V / Vebo 6V / Hfe 150 >> (typ.) >> >> Bingo! Display is now bright & crisp, looks great.. but.. the sub. HOT is >> running way, way hot. Rose to 170F in 2-3 min, and was steadily climbing. >> And that's in free air, not sealed up in the case. >> >> 50V supply came up to 42V.. better, still seems too low. So I think you >> can see my conundrum, here.. Is the +original+ HOT actually OK, and I'm >> only masking another problem in the circuit by installing a new part with >> 10X the gain? Why is the new part running so dang hot - and if the orig. is >> in fact bad, what killed it, anyway? >> >> To make things worse, I can't find +any+ service data or parts list for >> the display; all I have is a schematic. Nor can I find a datasheet for the >> original HOT - so I can't tell if it's in or out-of-spec. It's marked "SGS >> 1070 / 8309". I +think+ the 8309 is for March 1983 but who knows. >> >> Any ideas on this one, folks? =) >> > > I managed to track down the OEM manufacturer of the transistor, but it > looks like you might not need that information now since you've found an > NTE cross. > > According to one of my transistor books, the SGS marking indicates the > device was made by "SGS-ATES Componenti Electronici S.p.A.". That company > was also known as Societ? Generale Semiconduttori, which merged with > Thomson Semiconductor in 1987, becoming SGS-Thomson, which changed its name > in 1998 to STMicroelectronics. > From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Wed Nov 5 20:26:40 2014 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 12:26:40 +1000 Subject: ASCII art was Re: SET DIGEST In-Reply-To: <545AD510.4030900@gmail.com> References: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> <201411051704.MAA20201@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141105135446.H17622@shell.lmi.net> <545AD510.4030900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <545ADC60.9060409@yahoo.com.au> On 06/11/14 11:55, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 11/05/2014 04:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Hopefully, we won't make it back to untrimmed quoting of digests, >> untrimmed flames about failure to trim in top/bottom posting flames, >> "why am I receiving emails from people that I don't know?", >> "UNSCRIBE ME!", >> "STOPE MAILING ME", >> "people in that political party worship satan", >> "I was on holiday and got robbed; send money", >> "have you tried cutting out gluten to cure your cancer?", >> "the senate has passed a bill to tax email", >> flaming the owner of the list for strange list behaviors and unfinished >> repairs > > We're long overdue a cars vs. guns discussion, too. And some ASCII art. > > here is the requested ascii art /\/\/\/\/\/\ < > | | | | | _ _ | -|_ / \/ \_ |- |I| \_/\_/ |I| -| / \ |- | \__/ | | | | | |__________| /___/\__/\___\ / | \| \ /\ |\ | _@|#_ / /\ | \| | | \/ / \ / | | \_/___/ \_/ http://www.chris.com/ascii/index.php or ansi art @ http://ansilove.sourceforge.net/examples.html From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 5 21:29:08 2014 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 19:29:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: SET DIGEST In-Reply-To: <545AD510.4030900@gmail.com> References: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> <201411051704.MAA20201@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141105135446.H17622@shell.lmi.net> <545AD510.4030900@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Nov 2014, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 11/05/2014 04:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Hopefully, we won't make it back to untrimmed quoting of digests, >> untrimmed flames about failure to trim in top/bottom posting flames, >> "why am I receiving emails from people that I don't know?", >> "UNSCRIBE ME!", >> "STOPE MAILING ME", >> "people in that political party worship satan", >> "I was on holiday and got robbed; send money", >> "have you tried cutting out gluten to cure your cancer?", >> "the senate has passed a bill to tax email", >> flaming the owner of the list for strange list behaviors and unfinished >> repairs > > We're long overdue a cars vs. guns discussion, too. And some ASCII art. What about gun equipped cars vs ASCII art? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Wed Nov 5 21:42:47 2014 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 13:42:47 +1000 Subject: SET DIGEST In-Reply-To: References: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> <201411051704.MAA20201@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141105135446.H17622@shell.lmi.net> <545AD510.4030900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <545AEE37.4070106@yahoo.com.au> On 06/11/14 13:29, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 5 Nov 2014, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> On 11/05/2014 04:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Hopefully, we won't make it back to untrimmed quoting of digests, >>> untrimmed flames about failure to trim in top/bottom posting flames, >>> "why am I receiving emails from people that I don't know?", >>> "UNSCRIBE ME!", >>> "STOPE MAILING ME", >>> "people in that political party worship satan", >>> "I was on holiday and got robbed; send money", >>> "have you tried cutting out gluten to cure your cancer?", >>> "the senate has passed a bill to tax email", >>> flaming the owner of the list for strange list behaviors and unfinished >>> repairs >> >> We're long overdue a cars vs. guns discussion, too. And some ASCII art. > > What about gun equipped cars vs ASCII art? where is my Interstate '76 CD...... oh GOG has it :) > > g. > tom From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 5 23:47:20 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 05:47:20 +0000 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > So based on the specs of the NTE 379 with an avg, beta of 18-24 (min. 6/8 / > max. 30/40), the extant HOT (1070) with a measured beta of 11-12 may > actually be in-spec, albeit on the very low side. But an average of ~18-24 > is a far cry from the 150 of the unit in-use.. so that leads me to a > question, of course. > > The HOT basically acts as a switch in this application - it's really an > on/off proposition vs. linear amplification. So why is it that the original > HOT wasn't able to transition to a sufficiently low C-E resistance to do > the job? For some reason, I have the odd feeling that this is due to a lack > of base drive, rather than an excessive load imposed by either the HV > supply, yoke and/or the derived tertiary supplies (15V, 50V). Here's my > line of logic: Well, it's possible. Normally insufficient base drive is due to a defective coupling component in the base circuit, but there really aren't any here (I assume the schematic you gave is the one for the monitor in question). It could be a fault with the driver stage (Q102, etc), but that is unlikely. I did have a horizontal drive transformer fail once in a Zenith monitor, but that removed the scan and HV totally. The next thing to consider is that the gain (beta, hfe, etc) of a transistor depends on the collector current. The higher the current, in general, the lower the gain. I wonder if the original HOT is too low a gain for this circuit, I assume you tested it at a very low current. One other thing bothers me. With the original HOT you got a vertical line on the screen. In other words you had the high voltage (probably low), but almost no deflection. That is a very odd fault, it normally points to a problem in the yoke circuit. I would check the components in this area (especially the capacitor CX112, which is often a problem). Could you put the old HOT back in and look at the base drive with a 'scope? What do you see on the base? Can you get a few new HOTs (BU406, BU408, etc)? Try one. What does it do? -tony From spc at conman.org Wed Nov 5 23:53:01 2014 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 00:53:01 -0500 Subject: OT: reply-to munging In-Reply-To: <02c301cff935$db840900$928c1b00$@classiccmp.org> References: <02c301cff935$db840900$928c1b00$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20141106055301.GA9987@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jay West once stated: > Oh hell. I sure didn't mean to open up that can of worms (the every year or > so debate on if replies should be to the list or to the poster). But since > it HAS been brought up.... > > Background for short-timers: There is a recurring debate every year or so as > to the reply-to headers setting on the list. The way it works now, when the > list sends out list traffic/posts to each of you, it "munges" the reply-to > header so that when you hit "reply" to a list post, the reply goes to the > list. If you want to just reply to the poster directly (off-list), you have > to go through gyrations like hitting forward and typing in the senders email > address. > > Taking off my list owner hat... the following is my own personal opinion on > the topic which shall not be dictated upon the rest: > > I think that's insane, not to mention that I suspect it violates some RFC's Nope. Section 4.4.3 of RFC-822 specifically allows munging of the Reply-To header. Personally, I fall into the "Reply-To munging okay" camp. Where's what I wrote about this topic when it reared its head over fourteen years ago: http://boston.conman.org/2000/02/03 -spc (So the topic itself fits within the 10 year rule 8-P From spc at conman.org Wed Nov 5 23:57:27 2014 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 00:57:27 -0500 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <1415223962.3228308.187556577.6CE0066C@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <20141105185138.GA434@mooli.org.uk> <1415223962.3228308.187556577.6CE0066C@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20141106055727.GB9987@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great random832 at fastmail.us once stated: > > There is no standard-based support for rewriting the user's Reply-To > header (which practice irrevocably discards the original Reply-To and > incites people to, incorrectly, reply to the From header). See also > http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html [the Mail-Followup-To > header it proposes is not the subject of any RFC] If you check the syntax for the Reply-To header, you'll see it takes an address list, which means you can have more than one email address in that header. So munging could include *adding* an email address, just not *replacing* any existing email address. -spc (Who's written lots of code to parse emails ... ) From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 18:07:53 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 19:07:53 -0500 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> <20141105191247.GO11232@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <67EA4E6B-AE1A-432B-8315-2EB5E1555236@uniwho.com> <15B1D053-9560-4850-B84C-7A2AE983B22E@uniwho.com> <20141105210758.GA3970@mooli.org.uk> <2A411508-95C8-4BDB-89F3-B3DDC1719963@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: Let's do it. Let's commit to use just that for one whole week! We could call it the UCB Mail Challenge! Or Pledge or something! I bet we'd learn something interesting in doing so. On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Dan Cross wrote: >> MH I could see (via e.g. nmh) but Mail? Surely you jest. :-) From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 5 20:27:09 2014 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 21:27:09 -0500 Subject: No messages? Message-ID: <545ADC7D.6060405@sbcglobal.net> I've haven't gotten any ClassicCMP mail in days. Peeking at the archives, it seems the server fell over, but that was fixed... But I'm still not getting mail... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From evan at snarc.net Wed Nov 5 21:30:35 2014 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 22:30:35 -0500 Subject: VCF East X keynotes announced Message-ID: <545AEB5B.40207@snarc.net> VCF East 10 -- aka "VCFeX" is almost six months away (April 17-19, at our museum in Wall, New Jersey). But the planning is in top gear! I'm very happy to announce that our keynote speakers will be Dr. Dr. Ted Nelson (Saturday -- he has two doctoral degrees) and Bob Frankston (Sunday). The event web site is just beginning to get populated, so please pardon the lack of details for now: vintage.org/2015/east/ .... we're also social at facebook.com/vcfeast and we just joined Twitter.com a few minutes ago @vcfeast. New for 2015: more technical classes on Friday; longer exhibit hall hours Saturday and Sunday. From ams at gnu.org Thu Nov 6 01:29:55 2014 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 02:29:55 -0500 Subject: confirm 8881369b2e807aa8e95b8bdf8e596363ed452934 In-Reply-To: (cctalk-request@classiccmp.org) References: Message-ID: Hmm? These mailing list issues are starting to get out of hand ... Your membership in the mailing list cctalk has been disabled due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated 06-Nov-2014. You will not get any more messages from this list until you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more reminders like this before your membership in the list is deleted. From trash80 at internode.on.net Thu Nov 6 02:34:30 2014 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 19:34:30 +1100 Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001cff99c$7cf8d390$76ea7ab0$@internode.on.net> Very good advice Jay - I think I speak for the vast majority of us in that we appreciate what you do and what you've done to get things back up and running. But it's not all about the list - I've made a contact locally around where I live with someone who shares a similar interest to me in this space so it goes beyond the list - but not for the list I probably would not have known about this person much less made contact with them so thanks Jay!!!! ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Thursday, 6 November 2014 2:46 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: list issues & status As I suspected and alluded to before, there are issues with the list(s) that were pretty much expected (loss of previous settings of digest mode, as well as cross posting resulting in duplicates, and in some cases posts showing up as attachments). Yes, I am aware of these issues. I just received a post from a listmember about their "patience wearing thin". To that list member, I suggest you unsubscribe completely from both lists permanently. Obviously we're not the best choice for them. My patience is not wearing thin just yet. If yours is. please leave. Given that the list(s) are at least semi-functional, albeit with some issues, I switched gears and have been working to get the websites and other services migrated from the old server to the new server, and am almost complete with that. Should have the last website migrated by Friday as well as a few changes that are needed on the main bitsavers repository. After that, I'll start digging into the remaining issues with list functionality and then finally we'll start dealing with getting the archives imported (along with bits that have been missing for a while). Thanks so much for all your patience folks, we'll get there. Best, J From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Thu Nov 6 04:01:58 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 10:01:58 +0000 (WET) Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 05 Nov 2014 16:34:14 -0500" References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> <20141105191247.GO11232@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <67EA4E6B-AE1A-432B-8315-2EB5E1555236@uniwho.com> <15B1D053-9560-4850-B84C-7A2AE983B22E@uniwho.com> <20141105210758.GA3970@mooli.org.uk> <2A411508-95C8-4BDB-89F3-B3DDC1719963@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: <01PEMKK9P7D4002Q2B@beyondthepale.ie> > >*applause* > >But you guys are being entirely too clever for me; I meant "when you use it >as your primary means to send and receive email." > >MH I could see (via e.g. nmh) but Mail? Surely you jest. :-) > I use MAIL on VMS all the time and PMDF MAIL occasionlly. I can't use MAILBOOK on VM/CMS right now but I hope to be able to use it again some time. No gooey enail clients here. (Just yesterday I sent a second complaint to an outfit that sent me another html only email.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 06:25:49 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 06:25:49 -0600 Subject: No messages? In-Reply-To: <545ADC7D.6060405@sbcglobal.net> References: <545ADC7D.6060405@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <545B68CD.1060706@gmail.com> On 11/05/2014 08:27 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > I've haven't gotten any ClassicCMP mail in days. Peeking at the > archives, it seems the server fell over, but that was fixed... > But I'm still not getting mail... Try resubscribing, it worked for me. J. From FRED at MISER.MISERNET.NET Thu Nov 6 07:38:18 2014 From: FRED at MISER.MISERNET.NET (Fred) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 08:38:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 1, Issue 16 Message-ID: <01PEMGDVO6KY8WWD2F@MISER.MISERNET.NET> >From: IN%"cctalk at classiccmp.org" 5-NOV-2014 15:54:48.98 >To: IN%"cctalk at classiccmp.org" >CC: >Subj: cctalk Digest, Vol 1, Issue 16 >Message: 2 >Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 14:26:55 -0500 >From: Charles Phillips >Subject: Re: list issues & status >Message-ID: <15B1D053-9560-4850-B84C-7A2AE983B22E at uniwho.com> >anyone really hard core and still uses Elm? >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elm_(email_client) >:-) OK, I'll bite. Reading and replying with OpenVMS MAIL. :) Fred From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 08:38:49 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 15:38:49 +0100 Subject: HP9810A alive again! Message-ID: After replacing a lot of dead National Semiconductor TTL ICs this nice little machine from 1972-1973 is running again. It works perfectly to do calculations and also to create programs. I also managed to both store and restore a program written onto a home made magnetic card. Home made since I wasn't able to find any. There are a few issues left: The belt in the card reader is slipping a bit so a replacement would probably be needed to get it working 100%. One segment in the display is dead. Anyway: Here is the writeup of the restoration: http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/hewlett-packard/hp9810a and here is a video-clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9rBoWvze48 Enjoy! /Mattis From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 6 09:19:12 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 09:19:12 -0600 Subject: HP9810A alive again! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001601cff9d5$05d921a0$118b64e0$@classiccmp.org> Mattis wrote... --------------------------- Anyway: Here is the writeup of the restoration: http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/hewlett-packard/hp9810a and here is a video-clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9rBoWvze48 Enjoy! ------------------- That's awesome! Great job, and love the website walkthrough on the restoration! Now I feel guilty about just tossing up pics of my microdata restoration as plain files ;) J From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Thu Nov 6 10:49:17 2014 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 09:49:17 -0700 (MST) Subject: anybody still using elm In-Reply-To: <01PEMGDVO6KY8WWD2F@MISER.MISERNET.NET> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 2014, Fred wrote: > >anyone really hard core and still uses Elm? > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elm_(email_client) > >:-) > > OK, I'll bite. Reading and replying with OpenVMS MAIL. :) I am sending this to you from a DEC AS400 running OpenVMS 8.3, PMDF 6.5 and I am using Pine 4.44L which is included with PMDF 6.5. I read most of list mail this way. Will that Do? -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 6 11:00:35 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 09:00:35 -0800 Subject: anybody still using elm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <545BA933.6090307@sydex.com> On 11/06/2014 08:49 AM, Richard Loken wrote: > > I am sending this to you from a DEC AS400 running OpenVMS 8.3, PMDF 6.5 > and I am using Pine 4.44L which is included with PMDF 6.5. I read most of > list mail this way. > > Will that Do? Only if you're transferring the files using UUCP. --Chuck From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Thu Nov 6 11:02:13 2014 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 10:02:13 -0700 (MST) Subject: anybody still using elm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 2014, Richard Loken wrote: > I am sending this to you from a DEC AS400 running OpenVMS 8.3, PMDF 6.5 > and I am using Pine 4.44L which is included with PMDF 6.5. I read most of > list mail this way. Oops that should Alphastation 500 not 400. Freudian slip, this box is stepping in for my big warm cuddly AS4100 which is out of service waiting for me to fix or replace the Dallas RTC chip with its built in but dead battery. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Thu Nov 6 11:04:59 2014 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 10:04:59 -0700 (MST) Subject: anybody still using elm In-Reply-To: <545BA933.6090307@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Only if you're transferring the files using UUCP. Bravo! One for Chuck! Haven't run uucp at work for 30 years and never at home. When I look at the silliness on the "world wide web" today, I begin to miss uucp. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Thu Nov 6 11:12:50 2014 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 09:12:50 -0800 Subject: anybody still using elm In-Reply-To: <545BA933.6090307@sydex.com> References: <545BA933.6090307@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9B421E25-275C-4DE8-A9A6-FECB9F6FBE39@fozztexx.com> On Nov 6, 2014, at 9:00 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Only if you're transferring the files using UUCP. Now that I *am* still using. All of my mail servers act as secondary MX servers for each other and when things come in they get queued up and transferred via UUCP. It has worked great for me for 20 years, no reason to switch now. When a link goes down it?s not a problem, nothing gets lost and UUCP doesn?t time-out and start bouncing messages. Plus I still have one server that?s on a residential connection which moves all of its mail via UUCP since it can do polling when necessary. -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From vlad.stamate at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 11:15:35 2014 From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 09:15:35 -0800 Subject: No messages? In-Reply-To: <545B68CD.1060706@gmail.com> References: <545ADC7D.6060405@sbcglobal.net> <545B68CD.1060706@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, resubscribing definitely worked for me too, after not receiving messages since Oct 27th. Regards, Vlad. On 6 November 2014 04:25, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 11/05/2014 08:27 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> >> I've haven't gotten any ClassicCMP mail in days. Peeking at the >> archives, it seems the server fell over, but that was fixed... >> But I'm still not getting mail... > > > Try resubscribing, it worked for me. > > J. > From simski at dds.nl Thu Nov 6 11:07:27 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 18:07:27 +0100 Subject: located hidden museum in the netherlands Message-ID: <545BAACF.2060802@dds.nl> Hello all. today I visited a corporate owned computermuseum in our city of Arnhem, the Netherlands. you could touch an open some machines on display (others would require tools. :-) ) among them are a IBM 1401 with printer, tapedrives and terminal. some parts of a IBM 370/145, the console of a 360/30, several acounting machines, pdp8/e with two cabinets full of extra flip chips, card sorters, punches, collimators. all in all nice stuff. unfortunately they are not open to the general public. :-( pictures: https://hack42.nl/gallery/v/Museum/exciting/ -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen hack42.nl From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 6 12:06:21 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 10:06:21 -0800 Subject: anybody still using elm In-Reply-To: <9B421E25-275C-4DE8-A9A6-FECB9F6FBE39@fozztexx.com> References: <545BA933.6090307@sydex.com> <9B421E25-275C-4DE8-A9A6-FECB9F6FBE39@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: <545BB89D.3070405@sydex.com> On 11/06/2014 09:12 AM, Chris Osborn wrote: > > On Nov 6, 2014, at 9:00 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> Only if you're transferring the files using UUCP. > > Now that I *am* still using. All of my mail servers act as secondary > MX servers for each other and when things come in they get queued up > and transferred via UUCP. It has worked great for me for 20 years, no > reason to switch now. When a link goes down it?s not a problem, > nothing gets lost and UUCP doesn?t time-out and start bouncing > messages. Plus I still have one server that?s on a residential > connection which moves all of its mail via UUCP since it can do > polling when necessary. Indeed. I'll have to check, but I didn't give up on UUCP until about 2000, when I changed ISPs (the new one didn't offer it). I found UUCP to be very reliable indeed. In a sense, fetchmail isn't all that different--and I'm still using that. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 12:18:38 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 12:18:38 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony, All, On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 11:47 PM, tony duell wrote: > > One other thing bothers me. With the original HOT you got a vertical line > on the screen. In other words you > had the high voltage (probably low), but almost no deflection. That is a > very odd fault, it normally points to > a problem in the yoke circuit. I would check the components in this area > (especially the capacitor CX112, > which is often a problem). > There was more to it than that, but I described it many posts ago, and you probably missed the details.. here they are again, for anyone who might be curious. It's not that there was a solid, bright vertical line - the image consisted of the contents of the display (an ACSII block message box, plus a line or two of text) squashed into the vertical. So there was a short, dashed vertical line about 1.5" high, in the upper third of the screen. It was dim, and became more dim over the course of a minute or two - eventually disappearing totally, appearing to slowly slide upward past the upper limit of the screen. More on "disappearing" coming up.. I now realize that it's important. > > Could you put the old HOT back in and look at the base drive with a > 'scope? What do you see on the base? > > Having concluded that the original HOT was reading in-spec, I did re-install it as part of my next-step troubleshooting. I then disconnected the tertiary supplies (15V & 50V) by lifting leads of W3 & CR104, respectively. Guess what? The 50V supply came up to 44V (the highest I've seen it).. then the stupid stuff started.. I re-connected the 15V supply, and checked the 50V - still good. Then re-connected the 50V supply - and it's still good.. AND the d*mn display is working!! Now how obnoxious is that? Oh, and the HOT was running quite cool, barely over 100F. But not for long.. soon, the display faded out and the 50V supply crashed to 20V. Ack, it's an intermittent..! Replaced C114 & C401 (the stabilizng caps for the 50V & 15V supplies) just for drill, to no effect. So this leaves a couple of possibilities.. There's an intermittently shorting device in one of the tertiary supplies -or- the HOT itself is intermittent. Also possible that there's an issue with the base drive dropping out, but I'm putting my money on the HOT itself. The base drive question can be eliminated with a scope, but I'm going to replace the HOT in any event. Anybody got a spare laying around? From roeapeterson at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 12:43:46 2014 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 12:43:46 -0600 Subject: anybody still using elm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F5FB797-721A-45C4-B32F-D6C0CE7C4DF1@gmail.com> On Nov 6, 2014, at 11:04 AM, Richard Loken wrote: > >> On Thu, 6 Nov 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> Only if you're transferring the files using UUCP. > > Bravo! One for Chuck! > > Haven't run uucp at work for 30 years and never at home. When I look at > the silliness on the "world wide web" today, I begin to miss uucp. Lord, I actually miss UUCP. I had my own custom modemcap dialling routines that interacted with my own getty for dial in/out interlock. We connected DEMAND+FAST to both decvax and utzoo with telebits, and took a full usenet feed. Sigh. The good old days. > > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father > Athabasca University : but you have to earn > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" > ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston > From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Thu Nov 6 13:15:11 2014 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 12:15:11 -0700 (MST) Subject: anybody still using elm In-Reply-To: <1F5FB797-721A-45C4-B32F-D6C0CE7C4DF1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 2014, Roe Peterson wrote: > Lord, I actually miss UUCP. I had my own custom modemcap dialling > routines that interacted with my own getty for dial in/out interlock. We > connected DEMAND+FAST to both decvax and utzoo with telebits, and took a > full usenet feed. I once met Henry Spencer who ran utzoo as far as I recall. He told me that their monthly phone bill was in the thousands. My bosses would have never stood for that. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 6 13:23:54 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 19:23:54 +0000 Subject: HP9810A alive again! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > After replacing a lot of dead National Semiconductor TTL ICs this nice > little machine from 1972-1973 is running again. It works perfectly to do > calculations and also to create programs. I also managed to both store and > restore a program written onto a home made magnetic card. Home made since I > wasn't able to find any. How did you make the card? I have a few original ones for my 9810 and 9820, but only a few. So a way to make more would be interesting. > There are a few issues left: The belt in the card reader is slipping a bit > so a replacement would probably be needed to get it working 100%. One It's actually a standard O-ring, as mentioned in my repair notes. Size BS231 -- 2+7/8" OD, 2+5/8" ID, 1/8" thick. The only problem I had was the minimum order quantity was 50 or something. Yes, I do have plenty of them around -- but packed in one of about 700 boxes from the house move. > segment in the display is dead. That, alas, I think you have to live with. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 6 13:42:49 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 19:42:49 +0000 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > It's not that there was a solid, bright vertical line - the image consisted > of the contents of the display (an ACSII block message box, plus a line or > two of text) squashed into the vertical. So there was a short, dashed > vertical line about 1.5" high, in the upper third of the screen. It was > dim, and became more dim over the course of a minute or two - eventually > disappearing totally, appearing to slowly slide upward past the upper limit > of the screen. Ah... That sounds like the horizontal output stage stopped working completely (so no scan) and the thing kept working on the charge stored in the capacitors. > More on "disappearing" coming up.. I now realize that it's important. > > > > Could you put the old HOT back in and look at the base drive with a > > 'scope? What do you see on the base? > > > Having concluded that the original HOT was reading in-spec, I did > re-install it as part of my next-step troubleshooting. I then disconnected > the tertiary supplies (15V & 50V) by lifting leads of W3 & CR104, > respectively. Guess what? The 50V supply came up to 44V (the highest I've > seen it).. then the stupid stuff started.. > > I re-connected the 15V supply, and checked the 50V - still good. Then > re-connected the 50V supply - and it's still good.. AND the d*mn display is > working!! Now how obnoxious is that? Oh, and the HOT was running quite > cool, barely over 100F. > > But not for long.. soon, the display faded out and the 50V supply crashed > to 20V. Ack, it's an intermittent..! > > Replaced C114 & C401 (the stabilizng caps for the 50V & 15V supplies) just > for drill, to no effect. So this leaves a couple of possibilities.. There's > an intermittently shorting device in one of the tertiary supplies -or- the This sounds thermal to me. Somethng is failing when hot. Maybe the HOT. Maybe a diode or capacitor in the horizontal output stage. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 6 14:09:14 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 12:09:14 -0800 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <545BD56A.10407@sydex.com> On 11/06/2014 11:42 AM, tony duell wrote: > > This sounds thermal to me. Somethng is failing when hot. Maybe the HOT. Maybe > a diode or capacitor in the horizontal output stage. Probably not a power supply issue, per se. Usually, when power supply voltage drops, the image shrinks on the screen. I do wonder if it might also be an intermittent (thermal) short in the deflection yoke. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 6 14:19:46 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 12:19:46 -0800 Subject: UUCP was: Re: anybody still using elm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <545BD7E2.2060406@sydex.com> Forgot to mention that if you were running a BBS, UUCP (or a PC variant, such as UUPC) could use the same modem to call out as was normally used to receive calls. Very convenient in the pre-Web Internet years. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 6 14:31:22 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 14:31:22 -0600 Subject: websites on the classiccmp server Message-ID: <003e01cffa00$a1eef5d0$e5cce170$@classiccmp.org> Below is the current list of websites being hosting on the classiccmp server. Thought some of you might not be aware of them all and might find something of interest. With one or less exceptions, all the ones that are www.classiccmp.org/xxxxxx are not mine. These sites at some point I'd like to change to xxxxxx.classiccmp.org instead of www.classiccmp.org/xxxxxx Enjoy J www.classiccmp.org www.classiccmp.org/hp www.classiccmp.org/HP (this is a different site than above) www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11 (not the same as pdp-11.org below) www.classiccmp.org/mini www.classiccmp.org/transputer www.classiccmp.org/calcmuseum www.classiccmp.org/rainbow www.classiccmp.org/8008 www.classiccmp.org/trs80 www.classiccmp.org/cpm www.classiccmp.org/interex www.classiccmp.org/dunfield www.classiccmp.org/rtellason www.classiccmp.org/acornia www.classiccmp.org/cini www.classiccmp.org/altair32 www.classiccmp.org/kb www.classiccmp.org/softlib www.classiccmp.org/cpmarchives www.hp1000.org www.hp2000.org www.decvax.org www.pdp11.org www.sebhc.org www.retroarchive.org www.swtpc.com (one of these two is a subsite of the other) www.swtpc.org www.computergraphicsmuseum.org (and .com and .net, same sites) terminals.classiccmp.org manx.classiccmp.org www.bitsavers.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 6 14:27:50 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 20:27:50 +0000 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <545BD56A.10407@sydex.com> References: , , <545BD56A.10407@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > > > > This sounds thermal to me. Somethng is failing when hot. Maybe the HOT. Maybe > > a diode or capacitor in the horizontal output stage. > > Probably not a power supply issue, per se. Usually, when power supply > voltage drops, the image shrinks on the screen. Be careful... a low supply will lead to low EHT (HV, final anode voltage, whatever you call it) which means the electron beam is less stiff. So it will be easier to deflect. This will compensate for the low deflection amplitudes, depending on the monitor the picutre may grow, shrink, or stay about the same size. -tony From simski at dds.nl Thu Nov 6 13:16:15 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 20:16:15 +0100 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> why do you keep looking at the hot? a transistor fails or works. transformers and caps can show the problems you describe. did I mention the small 1kv caps around the whole stage? On 06-11-14 19:18, drlegendre . wrote: > Tony, All, > > On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 11:47 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> >> One other thing bothers me. With the original HOT you got a vertical line >> on the screen. In other words you >> had the high voltage (probably low), but almost no deflection. That is a >> very odd fault, it normally points to >> a problem in the yoke circuit. I would check the components in this area >> (especially the capacitor CX112, >> which is often a problem). >> > > There was more to it than that, but I described it many posts ago, and you > probably missed the details.. here they are again, for anyone who might be > curious. > > It's not that there was a solid, bright vertical line - the image consisted > of the contents of the display (an ACSII block message box, plus a line or > two of text) squashed into the vertical. So there was a short, dashed > vertical line about 1.5" high, in the upper third of the screen. It was > dim, and became more dim over the course of a minute or two - eventually > disappearing totally, appearing to slowly slide upward past the upper limit > of the screen. > > More on "disappearing" coming up.. I now realize that it's important. > > >> >> Could you put the old HOT back in and look at the base drive with a >> 'scope? What do you see on the base? >> >> Having concluded that the original HOT was reading in-spec, I did > re-install it as part of my next-step troubleshooting. I then disconnected > the tertiary supplies (15V & 50V) by lifting leads of W3 & CR104, > respectively. Guess what? The 50V supply came up to 44V (the highest I've > seen it).. then the stupid stuff started.. > > I re-connected the 15V supply, and checked the 50V - still good. Then > re-connected the 50V supply - and it's still good.. AND the d*mn display is > working!! Now how obnoxious is that? Oh, and the HOT was running quite > cool, barely over 100F. > > But not for long.. soon, the display faded out and the 50V supply crashed > to 20V. Ack, it's an intermittent..! > > Replaced C114 & C401 (the stabilizng caps for the 50V & 15V supplies) just > for drill, to no effect. So this leaves a couple of possibilities.. There's > an intermittently shorting device in one of the tertiary supplies -or- the > HOT itself is intermittent. Also possible that there's an issue with the > base drive dropping out, but I'm putting my money on the HOT itself. The > base drive question can be eliminated with a scope, but I'm going to > replace the HOT in any event. > > Anybody got a spare laying around? > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 6 14:54:05 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 12:54:05 -0800 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: , , <545BD56A.10407@sydex.com> Message-ID: <545BDFED.8020408@sydex.com> On 11/06/2014 12:27 PM, tony duell wrote: > Be careful... a low supply will lead to low EHT (HV, final anode voltage, whatever you call it) which > means the electron beam is less stiff. So it will be easier to deflect. This will compensate for the low > deflection amplitudes, depending on the monitor the picutre may grow, shrink, or stay about the same > size. Possibly, but the beam focus will likely visibly suffer in any case. Hmmm, a "limp" electron beam... --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 14:56:34 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 21:56:34 +0100 Subject: HP9810A alive again! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: torsdag 6 november 2014 skrev tony duell > > > How did you make the card? I have a few original ones for my 9810 and > 9820, but only > a few. So a way to make more would be interesting. > > I used 150 gram paper. It is less than 9 thou paper. But it was what I found in the art shop. Then I used a Tesa permanent double sided tape roller and glued two stripes of standard half inch mag tape onto the paper strip which I cut using a sharp knife and a steel scale. It was working quite alright in the beginning (just after I put it into hot water which made it shrink a bit) but now the belt ( o-ring ) just slips more and more. Btw. The way to make the magnetic cards are also mentioned in the article. Quite long down in it though. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Nov 6 15:12:08 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 15:12:08 -0600 Subject: No messages? In-Reply-To: <545B68CD.1060706@gmail.com> References: <545ADC7D.6060405@sbcglobal.net> <545B68CD.1060706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20141106211207.GA28175@RawFedDogs.net> On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 06:25:49AM -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 11/05/2014 08:27 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > I've haven't gotten any ClassicCMP mail in days. Peeking at the > > archives, it seems the server fell over, but that was fixed... > > But I'm still not getting mail... > > Try resubscribing, it worked for me. It might work for him too, but if you only sent your reply to the list and he's not receiving list messages he won't see your suggestion. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Nov 6 15:14:53 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 15:14:53 -0600 Subject: anybody still using elm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141106211453.GB28175@RawFedDogs.net> On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 10:02:13AM -0700, Richard Loken wrote: > Oops that should Alphastation 500 not 400. It might help if you say AlphaStation either way. I saw DEC AS400 and thought, "That can't be right. AS/400s are from IBM." :-) -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 6 15:20:59 2014 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 16:20:59 -0500 Subject: No messages? In-Reply-To: <20141106211207.GA28175@RawFedDogs.net> References: <545ADC7D.6060405@sbcglobal.net> <545B68CD.1060706@gmail.com> <20141106211207.GA28175@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <545BE63B.6050100@sbcglobal.net> On 11/06/2014 04:12 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 06:25:49AM -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On 11/05/2014 08:27 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>> I've haven't gotten any ClassicCMP mail in days. Peeking at the >>> archives, it seems the server fell over, but that was fixed... >>> But I'm still not getting mail... >> >> Try resubscribing, it worked for me. > > It might work for him too, but if you only sent your reply to the list and > he's not receiving list messages he won't see your suggestion. > > > I sent a message to Lawrence & Jay last night. Lawrence suggested that I resub, so I did... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Thu Nov 6 15:28:45 2014 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 14:28:45 -0700 (MST) Subject: anybody still using elm In-Reply-To: <20141106211453.GB28175@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 2014, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 10:02:13AM -0700, Richard Loken wrote: > > > Oops that should Alphastation 500 not 400. > > It might help if you say AlphaStation either way. I saw DEC AS400 and > thought, "That can't be right. AS/400s are from IBM." :-) Yeah but us VAX guys weren't IBM guys. I went through the same thing earlier in the week where somebody said something about an HP AS400. Thunk I, there is no such thing as an HP AS400, the only thing I know of is an IBM AS/400. I never figured out what they were talking about, in the end I assumed it was an IBM AS/400 but I was quite sure it was not a DEC Alphaserver 400. But maybe it was, I don't know. C'est dommage. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 15:51:41 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 15:51:41 -0600 Subject: No messages? In-Reply-To: <20141106211207.GA28175@RawFedDogs.net> References: <545ADC7D.6060405@sbcglobal.net> <545B68CD.1060706@gmail.com> <20141106211207.GA28175@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <545BED6D.2050308@gmail.com> On 11/06/2014 03:12 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 06:25:49AM -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On 11/05/2014 08:27 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>> I've haven't gotten any ClassicCMP mail in days. Peeking at the >>> archives, it seems the server fell over, but that was fixed... >>> But I'm still not getting mail... >> >> Try resubscribing, it worked for me. > > It might work for him too, but if you only sent your reply to the list and > he's not receiving list messages he won't see your suggestion. He said he'd checked the archives and had found out about the list problems, and given that he directed his question to the list I assumed he'd be checking them again :-) cheers Jules From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 6 15:37:35 2014 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 21:37:35 -0000 Subject: ASCII Art References: <004201cff84d$66559a10$3300ce30$@tuccio.net> <20141104094726.S98741@shell.lmi.net> <201411051704.MAA20201@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141105135446.H17622@shell.lmi.net> <545AD510.4030900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b601cffa0e$31df2ef0$1431190a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" Subject: Re: SET DIGEST > > We're long overdue a cars vs. guns discussion, too. And some ASCII art. > Mmmmm.... ASCII art... or ASCII animals in this case: _-~~~-_ _-~~~-_ /~ ~\ : , \ ' ~ , |: : { /~~\ :--~""""\.: : \ (... : /^\ /^\ ; ~\_____ | | | |:~ / |__O|_|O|; ( / O \ \ ( `\_______/) `\ \ / ) ~-------~'\ / \ : || | | || | |.======[]==+'| (~~~~) | |~) / \ | | \ ~\ \___/)______/^\__|_/ `\ // | | | | `\__//' | | | | ~~ (~~~~) (~~~) / =\..' =_ |__________)________)-jurcy Sadly not by me, but taken from here: http://www.asciiworld.com/-Animals-.html It's great to see that ASCII art is still around. Perhaps even more popular than it used to be? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 6 16:15:43 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 22:15:43 +0000 Subject: HP9810A alive again! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > It was working quite alright in the beginning (just after I put it into hot > water which made it shrink a bit) but now the belt ( o-ring ) just slips > more and more. It's claimed that boiling the old belt in a kettle of water will help. It will make your tea/coffee taste odd for many days.... More seriously, I had this problem in my 9820 (same reader) and didn't have a belt to hand. As a temporary kludge, I put the belt on with a twist in it (figure-of-8 shape and swapped over the motor leads at the tagstrip (note, you must keep the diode on that tagstrip connected the same way round to the wires from the PCB edge connector -- swap over the red and white wires going to the motor only). It worked, but of course there was more wear where the belt rubbed over itserlf. So I replaced it. The O-ring is not hard to get... -tony From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 6 17:50:40 2014 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 18:50:40 -0500 Subject: No messages? In-Reply-To: <545BED6D.2050308@gmail.com> References: <545ADC7D.6060405@sbcglobal.net> <545B68CD.1060706@gmail.com> <20141106211207.GA28175@RawFedDogs.net> <545BED6D.2050308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <545C0950.6030102@sbcglobal.net> On 11/06/2014 04:51 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 11/06/2014 03:12 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: >> >> On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 06:25:49AM -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> On 11/05/2014 08:27 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>>> I've haven't gotten any ClassicCMP mail in days. Peeking at the >>>> archives, it seems the server fell over, but that was fixed... >>>> But I'm still not getting mail... >>> >>> Try resubscribing, it worked for me. >> >> It might work for him too, but if you only sent your reply to the list >> and >> he's not receiving list messages he won't see your suggestion. > > He said he'd checked the archives and had found out about the list > problems, and given that he directed his question to the list I assumed > he'd be checking them again :-) > > cheers > > Jules > > Now why would I do that? ;) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From roeapeterson at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 18:29:25 2014 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 18:29:25 -0600 Subject: anybody still using elm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <820A8ADB-C18C-4669-8BB1-5296DD4DA21A@gmail.com> > On Nov 6, 2014, at 1:15 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > >> On Thu, 6 Nov 2014, Roe Peterson wrote: >> connected DEMAND+FAST to both decvax and utzoo with telebits, and took a >> full usenet feed. > > I once met Henry Spencer who ran utzoo as far as I recall. Yes, he did. Utzoo was amazing, and let's all remember that "C" news came from Spencer and Collyer. I follow the Henry Spencer 10 rules of C programming :-) I played Dungeons & Dragons with him once. From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 18:37:41 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 18:37:41 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> Message-ID: Hi Simon, All - for an update (below) On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: > why do you keep looking at the hot? a transistor fails or works. > transformers and caps can show the problems you describe. did I mention the > small 1kv caps around the whole stage? You know the saying.. when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.. ;-) IOW, it's largely due to my lack of experience.. I'm sticking to the stuff I know, and when it comes to analog video, the horizontal output section is about the only area I have any understanding. Also, I do know a horizontal issue when I see one (vertical line) and when you add-in the low tertiary supplies, the HOT is at the core of it. As for the rest of the caps around the board, I've checked them all with my eyes (for liquid leakage / blow-ups), an ohmmeter (for static shorts / electrical leakage) +and+ a quality in-circuit ESR meter (Capacitor Wizard) and can't find a bogie. Not to get twitchy, now, but I heartily challenge your assertion that transistors "either work or don't".. transistors have more than the two (hard short / hard open) common failure modes - it's in the literature. ** General update commences here ** But the thing is, I've eliminated the tertiary supplies.. by lifting the diode / wires as I did, they are disconnected from the horiz. section. And in this state, the 50V supply still crashed on me, did so this afternoon - and yes, I have replaced all caps connected to the 50V line. It is clearly a thermal intermittent issue - things are OK when cold, and go haywire after a few minutes time. One reason that I'm still suspecting the HOT, is that the entire time I had the NTE 375 replacement installed, the 50V supply never crashed. No, I didn't run it for that long, but based on how fast things go bad (when it warms up) I really should have seen something when the 375 was in place. Oh, and to eliminate questions about shorts in the horiz. yoke, I pulled the connection while the 50V supply was in the crashed state - and the supply rose by perhaps a volt or two - so the yoke is clearly not the source of a short-circuit. I still suspect the HOT or components to the left (aka base drive). I need to let the system get good & cool before I hook up the scope to watch what happens to the base drive when the 50V supply crashes. if it's stable, then it's either the HOT or possibly the flyback diode or the (what's it called?) safety cap? The "special" 400V cap in parallel with the flyback diode? I'm running out of stuff it could be.. of course, there's always the horiz drive transformer, ugh. From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 18:39:41 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 18:39:41 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> Message-ID: Forgot to mention - this afternoon, when the 50V supply crashed while I was monitoring it, I actually +heard+ it happen.. there was a very faint little buzzy-sizzle sound "zzzzzztt" as the supply failed. Wish I knew what made the noise.. but it could have just been audible harmonics coming from the yoke or some other effective transducer, rather than noise produced by the faulty component itself. On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 6:37 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Hi Simon, All - for an update (below) > > On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: > >> why do you keep looking at the hot? a transistor fails or works. >> transformers and caps can show the problems you describe. did I mention the >> small 1kv caps around the whole stage? > > > You know the saying.. when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like > a nail.. ;-) IOW, it's largely due to my lack of experience.. I'm sticking > to the stuff I know, and when it comes to analog video, the horizontal > output section is about the only area I have any understanding. Also, I do > know a horizontal issue when I see one (vertical line) and when you add-in > the low tertiary supplies, the HOT is at the core of it. > > As for the rest of the caps around the board, I've checked them all with > my eyes (for liquid leakage / blow-ups), an ohmmeter (for static shorts / > electrical leakage) +and+ a quality in-circuit ESR meter (Capacitor Wizard) > and can't find a bogie. > > Not to get twitchy, now, but I heartily challenge your assertion that > transistors "either work or don't".. transistors have more than the two > (hard short / hard open) common failure modes - it's in the literature. > > ** General update commences here ** > > But the thing is, I've eliminated the tertiary supplies.. by lifting the > diode / wires as I did, they are disconnected from the horiz. section. And > in this state, the 50V supply still crashed on me, did so this afternoon - > and yes, I have replaced all caps connected to the 50V line. It is clearly > a thermal intermittent issue - things are OK when cold, and go haywire > after a few minutes time. > > One reason that I'm still suspecting the HOT, is that the entire time I > had the NTE 375 replacement installed, the 50V supply never crashed. No, I > didn't run it for that long, but based on how fast things go bad (when it > warms up) I really should have seen something when the 375 was in place. > Oh, and to eliminate questions about shorts in the horiz. yoke, I pulled > the connection while the 50V supply was in the crashed state - and the > supply rose by perhaps a volt or two - so the yoke is clearly not the > source of a short-circuit. > > I still suspect the HOT or components to the left (aka base drive). I need > to let the system get good & cool before I hook up the scope to watch what > happens to the base drive when the 50V supply crashes. if it's stable, then > it's either the HOT or possibly the flyback diode or the (what's it > called?) safety cap? The "special" 400V cap in parallel with the flyback > diode? I'm running out of stuff it could be.. of course, there's always the > horiz drive transformer, ugh. > From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 20:06:57 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 20:06:57 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> Message-ID: ** Update - I think it's nailed ** I let the unit cool down sufficiently such that things were "working" again - but this time, I was ready. I had the base & collector of the HOT instrumented, as well as the first cap in the 50V supply. Recall that both 15V & 50V tertiary supplies are otherwise disconnected from the horiz. section where they are produced. With the 50V supply running fine at 44V, the signals at the HOT base measured 212mV P-P, and the collector 15V P-P. This ignores any HF spikes, I'm just concerned with the significant power region of the signals. After a few minutes, the 50V supply crashed.. and guess what? The HOT base signal actually increased a bit, to around 250mV P-P while the collector fell by at least an order of magnitude. So please correct me if my conclusions are unwarranted, but I believe the situation is quite clear, now. The HOT has a thermal intermittent in the E-C circuit - I just can't see any other explanation for this behavior. The base signal didn't flicker, it actually +rose+ as the collector signal went away. It's as if the E-C circuit is going high-impedance while the B-C circuit remains intact. Also - if something (like C116) were shorting the C to ground, we wouldn't see a +rise+ in the base waveform.. we'd only see the base signal increase if the load on the collector were to go away - eh? IOW, It's just gotta be the HOT. From the get-go. On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 6:39 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Forgot to mention - this afternoon, when the 50V supply crashed while I > was monitoring it, I actually +heard+ it happen.. there was a very faint > little buzzy-sizzle sound "zzzzzztt" as the supply failed. Wish I knew what > made the noise.. but it could have just been audible harmonics coming from > the yoke or some other effective transducer, rather than noise produced by > the faulty component itself. > > On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 6:37 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> Hi Simon, All - for an update (below) >> >> On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: >> >>> why do you keep looking at the hot? a transistor fails or works. >>> transformers and caps can show the problems you describe. did I mention the >>> small 1kv caps around the whole stage? >> >> >> You know the saying.. when all you have is a hammer, everything looks >> like a nail.. ;-) IOW, it's largely due to my lack of experience.. I'm >> sticking to the stuff I know, and when it comes to analog video, the >> horizontal output section is about the only area I have any understanding. >> Also, I do know a horizontal issue when I see one (vertical line) and when >> you add-in the low tertiary supplies, the HOT is at the core of it. >> >> As for the rest of the caps around the board, I've checked them all with >> my eyes (for liquid leakage / blow-ups), an ohmmeter (for static shorts / >> electrical leakage) +and+ a quality in-circuit ESR meter (Capacitor Wizard) >> and can't find a bogie. >> >> Not to get twitchy, now, but I heartily challenge your assertion that >> transistors "either work or don't".. transistors have more than the two >> (hard short / hard open) common failure modes - it's in the literature. >> >> ** General update commences here ** >> >> But the thing is, I've eliminated the tertiary supplies.. by lifting the >> diode / wires as I did, they are disconnected from the horiz. section. And >> in this state, the 50V supply still crashed on me, did so this afternoon - >> and yes, I have replaced all caps connected to the 50V line. It is clearly >> a thermal intermittent issue - things are OK when cold, and go haywire >> after a few minutes time. >> >> One reason that I'm still suspecting the HOT, is that the entire time I >> had the NTE 375 replacement installed, the 50V supply never crashed. No, I >> didn't run it for that long, but based on how fast things go bad (when it >> warms up) I really should have seen something when the 375 was in place. >> Oh, and to eliminate questions about shorts in the horiz. yoke, I pulled >> the connection while the 50V supply was in the crashed state - and the >> supply rose by perhaps a volt or two - so the yoke is clearly not the >> source of a short-circuit. >> >> I still suspect the HOT or components to the left (aka base drive). I >> need to let the system get good & cool before I hook up the scope to watch >> what happens to the base drive when the 50V supply crashes. if it's stable, >> then it's either the HOT or possibly the flyback diode or the (what's it >> called?) safety cap? The "special" 400V cap in parallel with the flyback >> diode? I'm running out of stuff it could be.. of course, there's always the >> horiz drive transformer, ugh. >> > > From isking at uw.edu Thu Nov 6 21:48:13 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 19:48:13 -0800 Subject: No messages? In-Reply-To: <545C0950.6030102@sbcglobal.net> References: <545ADC7D.6060405@sbcglobal.net> <545B68CD.1060706@gmail.com> <20141106211207.GA28175@RawFedDogs.net> <545BED6D.2050308@gmail.com> <545C0950.6030102@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: One of my 'lurker' friends wasn't seeing messages. Given that what I'd heard was that the member list was reconstructed from archives of people who had *mailed to the list*, I suggested resubscribing, which has apparently fixed my friend's problem. Hm, troubleshooting hint: always resubscribe. If you're already subscribed, I think you get a message to that effect, and maybe you have another problem. Also, if you're getting the list in digest, there actually are days when nothing comes through. :-) I was successfully re-added to the list when it was reconstructed with no effort on my part. FWIW, YMMV, MOUSE -- Ian On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 11/06/2014 04:51 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> On 11/06/2014 03:12 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: >> >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 06:25:49AM -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> >>>> On 11/05/2014 08:27 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>>> >>>>> I've haven't gotten any ClassicCMP mail in days. Peeking at the >>>>> archives, it seems the server fell over, but that was fixed... >>>>> But I'm still not getting mail... >>>>> >>>> >>>> Try resubscribing, it worked for me. >>>> >>> >>> It might work for him too, but if you only sent your reply to the list >>> and >>> he's not receiving list messages he won't see your suggestion. >>> >> >> He said he'd checked the archives and had found out about the list >> problems, and given that he directed his question to the list I assumed >> he'd be checking them again :-) >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> >> >> > Now why would I do that? > ;) > > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS Ph.D. Candidate The Information School University of Washington An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 6 22:23:34 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 22:23:34 -0600 Subject: No messages? In-Reply-To: References: <545ADC7D.6060405@sbcglobal.net> <545B68CD.1060706@gmail.com> <20141106211207.GA28175@RawFedDogs.net> <545BED6D.2050308@gmail.com> <545C0950.6030102@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <000b01cffa42$98d9cd70$ca8d6850$@classiccmp.org> Ian wrote... One of my 'lurker' friends wasn't seeing messages. Given that what I'd heard was that the member list was reconstructed from archives of people who had *mailed to the list*, I suggested resubscribing, which has apparently fixed my friend's problem. ====== I believe that Dennis reconstructed the list by parsing OUTBOUND emails (ie. the list sending to subscribers). Not from inbound emails (people emailing to the list). J From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 6 23:55:16 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 05:55:16 +0000 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> , Message-ID: > After a few minutes, the 50V supply crashed.. and guess what? The HOT base > signal actually increased a bit, to around 250mV P-P while the collector > fell by at least an order of magnitude. > > So please correct me if my conclusions are unwarranted, but I believe the > situation is quite clear, now. The HOT has a thermal intermittent in the > E-C circuit - I just can't see any other explanation for this behavior. The > base signal didn't flicker, it actually +rose+ as the collector signal went > away. It's as if the E-C circuit is going high-impedance while the B-C > circuit remains intact. That base amplitude sounds a bit low to me, I would have expected about 0.6V. But without seeing the waveform it's hard to be sure.. BUT... Remember that the forward voltage drop of a semiconductor junction -- like the B-E junction of the HOT -- depends on temperature. Diodes have actually been used as temperature sensors due to this effect. So if the HOT is overheating for any reason the base drive may appear to increase. Yes, it's worth replacing the HOT. But don't be too surprised if it doesn't cure it. -tony From azd30 at telus.net Thu Nov 6 17:09:24 2014 From: azd30 at telus.net (azd30) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 16:09:24 -0700 (MST) Subject: anybody still using elm In-Reply-To: <545BA933.6090307@sydex.com> References: <545BA933.6090307@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1849666174.31657193.1415315364197.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> Elm was my prefered e-mail program on all *nix boxes i ran. And talking about UUCP. Found my old map entry. For comaprison I did a speedtest on my DSL connection - 24.3Mbs. A wee bit better than 2400bps. 8-) #N bedrock #S 80286 AT Compatible; Coherent UNIX V3.1.0 #O Infinite Concepts #C Alex Dumitru #E bedrock!root #T +1 416 525-4604 #P 195 Markland Street #2, Hamilton Ontario Canada L8P-2K7 #L 43 16 N / 73 55 W city #R Digital Image Processing, Hardware/Software Development #U blunile #W dumitru at blunile.guild.org (Alex Dumitru); Tue Aug 27 20:29:59 EDT 1991 # # # bedrock blunile(EVENING) # 2400bps, downstream mail From gkaufman at the-planet.org Thu Nov 6 21:25:54 2014 From: gkaufman at the-planet.org (Gary Kaufman) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 22:25:54 -0500 Subject: Vince Briel computers Message-ID: <545C3BC2.2070208@the-planet.org> Has anyone been able to reach Vince Briel recently? I hope he's ok, as I've enjoyed his pocket-term and micro-kim kits. I ordered a Superboard III kit on August 25th. I was hoping to use it as a gift in early October! On 9/18 I heard back with "Hey Gary,I have a OSI 600 and I can say the Superboard III is really close to the exact same thing (little better video quality). I'll look for your order and see if I can't get it out shortly" And on October 13th "Hi Gary. Sorry ive been moving this week. Should be done in a day or two. My main pc went down but i should have it fixed this week. Still only have phone for internet." Nothing since, and no additional information on his forum or website. From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 00:47:07 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 00:47:07 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> Message-ID: Tony, All, On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 11:55 PM, tony duell wrote: > > That base amplitude sounds a bit low to me, I would have expected about > 0.6V. But without > seeing the waveform it's hard to be sure.. > I don't have enough experience to rate it one way or the other. All I'll say, is that (again) these readings were taken when I knew I had precious little time to take +any+ kind of measurement, before things went away - and I was neglecting / ignoring any spiky / HF components. Didn't have time to analyze the minutiae of the signal to any depth. My primary goal was to establish an easily-acquired reference to compare with any changes that might (well, that I knew would) occur. Oh, and it's like a 10MHz scope (Telequipment D54). Limited bandwidth and capability, but it does have a really excellent trigger setup.. > BUT... > > Remember that the forward voltage drop of a semiconductor junction -- like > the B-E junction of > the HOT -- depends on temperature. Diodes have actually been used as > temperature > sensors due to this effect. Sure, alongside output transistors in audio amps, for example. > So if the HOT is overheating for any reason the base drive > may appear to increase. > > Yes, it's worth replacing the HOT. But don't be too surprised if it > doesn't cure it. I will. And no, nothing will really surprise me at this juncture, lol. But I do suspect that a new HOT will more than likely cure what ails it.. Time will tell. Anyone got a spare? =) Otherwise, I'll hit up eBay or whatnot.. I'll also check with the local electronics jobber, but they tend to have mad markups on this stuff. Wouldn't be surprised if they wanted $20 for a simple NTE 379. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 7 01:30:08 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 23:30:08 -0800 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> Message-ID: <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> Well, Tony may have a problem with this one, but SMPSU transistors and HOTs do share a lot of common characterists. For example, instead of the NTE unit, consider the MJE13007, a old Motorola design that saw use in both SMPSUs as well as HOTs. Common as dirt. eBay, for example, has a BIN for 10 of them for less than $6 shipped. (item 140811430465). Compare the datasheets for yourself. --CHuck P.S. I have a terrible, but relevant confession--I don't like to throw things out as long as they contain useful parts. For example, I accumulate bad CFLs then remove the lamp, extricate the electronics PCB, line them up out of doors over a metal pail and apply a heat gun to the trace side of the little pcb until the solder softens. Grab with pliers and bang each one against the side of the pail to allow components to drop out and then move on. Right now, I'm holding what fell out of the innards of a 20W CFL base. There are several power transistors with heat sinks, several inductors, diodes (of the 1N400x type), miscellaneous capacitors, etc. What makes this germane to the topic under discussion is that the base contained two NXP PHE 13005 transistors. Compare the datasheet with your NTE one. Like I said, common as dirt. From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Fri Nov 7 01:50:04 2014 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 17:50:04 +1000 Subject: Vince Briel computers In-Reply-To: <545C3BC2.2070208@the-planet.org> References: <545C3BC2.2070208@the-planet.org> Message-ID: <545C79AC.8070501@yahoo.com.au> On 07/11/14 13:25, Gary Kaufman wrote: > Has anyone been able to reach Vince Briel recently? I hope he's ok, as > I've enjoyed his pocket-term and micro-kim kits. > > I ordered a Superboard III kit on August 25th. I was hoping to use it > as a gift in early October! > > On 9/18 I heard back with > "Hey Gary,I have a OSI 600 and I can say the Superboard III is really > close to the exact same thing (little better video quality). I'll look > for your order and see if I can't get it out shortly" > > And on October 13th > "Hi Gary. Sorry ive been moving this week. Should be done in a day or > two. My main pc went down but i should have it fixed this week. Still > only have phone for internet." > > Nothing since, and no additional information on his forum or website. > I hope it's not too serious because I am looking at get some more computers from him tom From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 7 03:17:24 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 01:17:24 -0800 Subject: Vince Briel computers In-Reply-To: <545C79AC.8070501@yahoo.com.au> References: <545C3BC2.2070208@the-planet.org> <545C79AC.8070501@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: <545C8E24.4060503@jwsss.com> On 11/6/2014 11:50 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: > On 07/11/14 13:25, Gary Kaufman wrote: >> Has anyone been able to reach Vince Briel recently? I hope he's ok, as >> I've enjoyed his pocket-term and micro-kim kits. >> >> I ordered a Superboard III kit on August 25th. I was hoping to use it >> as a gift in early October! >> >> On 9/18 I heard back with >> "Hey Gary,I have a OSI 600 and I can say the Superboard III is really >> close to the exact same thing (little better video quality). I'll look >> for your order and see if I can't get it out shortly" >> >> And on October 13th >> "Hi Gary. Sorry ive been moving this week. Should be done in a day or >> two. My main pc went down but i should have it fixed this week. Still >> only have phone for internet." >> >> Nothing since, and no additional information on his forum or website. >> > I hope it's not too serious because I am looking at get some more > computers from him > > tom You guys got my curiosity up, and I went to his store pages just now. It was updated on Aug 1 to show a 4 to 6 week delay in shipping any orders. I suspect that has been drawn out for some reason. I am also interested in some more terminal boards, so hopefully things are not too far off track for him. Jim From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 7 07:59:42 2014 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 08:59:42 -0500 Subject: No messages? In-Reply-To: References: <545ADC7D.6060405@sbcglobal.net> <545B68CD.1060706@gmail.com> <20141106211207.GA28175@RawFedDogs.net> <545BED6D.2050308@gmail.com> <545C0950.6030102@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <545CD04E.4020700@sbcglobal.net> On 11/06/2014 10:48 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Dave Woyciesjes > wrote: >> On 11/06/2014 04:51 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> On 11/06/2014 03:12 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: >>>> On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 06:25:49AM -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: >>>>> On 11/05/2014 08:27 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I've haven't gotten any ClassicCMP mail in days. Peeking at the >>>>>> archives, it seems the server fell over, but that was fixed... >>>>>> But I'm still not getting mail... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Try resubscribing, it worked for me. >>>>> >>>> >>>> It might work for him too, but if you only sent your reply to the list >>>> and >>>> he's not receiving list messages he won't see your suggestion. >>>> >>> >>> He said he'd checked the archives and had found out about the list >>> problems, and given that he directed his question to the list I assumed >>> he'd be checking them again :-) >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> Jules >>> >>> >>> >> Now why would I do that? >> ;) > One of my 'lurker' friends wasn't seeing messages. Given that what I'd > heard was that the member list was reconstructed from archives of people > who had *mailed to the list*, I suggested resubscribing, which has > apparently fixed my friend's problem. > > Hm, troubleshooting hint: always resubscribe. If you're already > subscribed, I think you get a message to that effect, and maybe you have > another problem. Also, if you're getting the list in digest, there > actually are days when nothing comes through. :-) > > I was successfully re-added to the list when it was reconstructed with no > effort on my part. FWIW, YMMV, MOUSE -- Ian > I guess the sarcasm wasn't obvious enough... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 7 08:01:52 2014 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 09:01:52 -0500 Subject: No messages? In-Reply-To: <000b01cffa42$98d9cd70$ca8d6850$@classiccmp.org> References: <545ADC7D.6060405@sbcglobal.net> <545B68CD.1060706@gmail.com> <20141106211207.GA28175@RawFedDogs.net> <545BED6D.2050308@gmail.com> <545C0950.6030102@sbcglobal.net> <000b01cffa42$98d9cd70$ca8d6850$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <545CD0D0.4040406@sbcglobal.net> On 11/06/2014 11:23 PM, Jay West wrote: > Ian wrote... >> One of my 'lurker' friends wasn't seeing messages. Given that what >> I'd heard was that the member list was reconstructed from archives >> of people who had *mailed to the list*, I suggested resubscribing, >> which has apparently fixed my friend's problem. > ====== I believe that Dennis reconstructed the list by parsing > OUTBOUND emails (ie. the list sending to subscribers). Not from > inbound emails (people emailing to the list). > Which makes it a bit odd that it didn't pick up my address then. Eh, now worries. Just out of curiosity, is there any chance of getting a post-mortem? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 08:19:08 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 14:19:08 -0000 Subject: FW: TNMoC News - The winners of the 2014 Tony Sale Award for computer conservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02a201cffa95$ce188be0$6a49a3a0$@gmail.com> I hope folks don't mind me forwarding this, but some interesting, if probably well know links. Dave G4UGM From: noreply at salesforce.com [mailto:noreply at salesforce.com] On Behalf Of Mike Kelly Sent: 07 November 2014 12:26 To: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Subject: TNMoC News - The winners of the 2014 Tony Sale Award for computer conservation NEWS RELEASE from the Computer Conservation Society The winners of the 2014 Tony Sale Award for computer conservation are . a virtual 1930's mechanical computer and a restored industry-changing computer. 7 November 2014 The 2014 Tony Sale Award for computer conservation has been jointly awarded to two outstanding and contrasting entries representing computing in the 1930s and the late 1950s. The winners are the IBM 1401 Demo Lab, a restoration of one of the most significant machines in computer history by the Computer History Museum in California, and Z1 Architecture and Algorithms, a virtual reconstruction of the 1930's Konrad Zuse mechanical computer, by the Free University of Berlin. Run by the Computer Conservation Society and sponsored by Google UK, this is the second Tony Sale Award for computer conservation. The first was won in 2012 by Dr David Link for LoveLetters, a computer art installation that continues to tour the world. In announcing the 2014 winners, Martin Campbell-Kelly, computer historian and head of the judging panel, said: "The eight excellent entries for the 2014 Tony Sale Award from four different countries clearly demonstrates how computer conservation is flourishing more than 20 years after Tony Sale embarked on his pioneering and awe-inspiring reconstruction of a Colossus Mk II, a world-famous exhibit at The National Museum of Computing on Bletchley Park." The IBM 1401 Demo Lab is a classic reconstruction of a 50-year old commercial computer. It marked the transition of IBM as a supplier of accounting machines to it becoming the dominant supplier of the mainframe era. Announced in 1959, the IBM 1401's success took everyone by surprise. The company had expected to sell or lease about 1,000, but went on to deliver 15,000 and by the mid-1960s they amounted to half of the computers in the world. Its high-speed chain printer was a key to its success -- punched card machines were eagerly traded in for the IBM 1401 and business computing took a huge stride forward. In a project involving 20 volunteers over ten years, two 1401s have been restored at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. The computers and the ancillary equipment including the famous 1403 chain printer are on permanent display and the working system is demonstrated twice a week. See http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/restoring-the-ibm-1401/ for more information about the project. The judging panel said: "The IBM Demo Lab is a flawless restoration of a machine that signalled a turning point in the computer industry and the use of computers in business." Z1 Architecture and Algorithms, the other joint-winner, is a virtual reconstruction of one of the world's earliest computers, the Z1. Originally built in 1936-38, the Z1 was destroyed in a bombing raid in 1943. In the 1980s and then in his 70s, Konrad Zuse embarked on a reconstruction of the Z1 which is now a remarkable but static exhibit at the Technology Museum in Berlin. However, with 30,000 parts the reconstruction of the mechanical computer was unlikely to be robust or reliable enough for regular operation, so a team led by Professor Raul Rojas began a virtual reconstruction with a technical description. Through the meticulous research of Professor Rojas, a team of his students was able to construct a 3D visual simulation of the arithmetic unit for deployment on the web. In addition, hundreds of high resolution photos of the Z1 enable web users to explore the machine from any angle at very high resolution. See http://zuse-z1.zib.de/ for the virtual reconstruction. The judging panel said "Z1 Architecture and Algorithms is a remarkable vision of how such complex artefacts might be delivered to a worldwide audience. It is a project that will undoubtedly give museum curators pause for thought." Rachel Burnett, Chair of the CCS, said "The late Tony Sale would have been delighted with the entries that we have had in the year of the silver jubilee of our Society that he co-founded with Doron Swade. "The computer conservation movement is dynamic and growing apace. Through the Tony Sale Award, we salute the computing pioneers of the past and the dedication of those today who breathe vibrant life into our incredible computing heritage." Notes to Editors 1 The Computer Conservation Society Established in 1989, the Computer Conservation Society (CCS) started as a joint venture between BCS, The Chartered Institute for IT, the Science Museum and later the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester. In recent years The National Museum of Computing has become a key partner. 2 The CCS Judging panel Martin Campbell-Kelly, computer historian, was joined in the 2014 panel of judges by Chris Burton, engineer and computer conservationist , Nigel Sale, computer scientist and son of Tony Sale, and Doron Swade MBE, museum curator and author. 3 Links to other nominated entries for the 2014 Tony Sale Award The Analogue Computing Museum collection in Schwalbach, Germany. www.analogmuseum.org The Jim Austin Computer Collection in York, England. www.computermuseum.org.uk The restoration of 1970s DEC PDP computers at The Rhode Island Computer Museum (RICM), Rhode Island, USA. www.ricomputermuseum.org The PRS 4, a restoration of a 1973 Polish micro-computer at the Muzem Historii Komputerow i Informatyki (MHKI) in Katowice, Poland. www.muzeumkomputerow.edu.pl The Technikum29 Computer History Museum collection in Frankfurt am Main, Germany. www.technikum29.de The WITCH-E project, a trans-Atlantic educational project, by David Anders. www.elinux.org/WITCH 4 About Tony Sale Tony Sale (1931-2011), in whose honour the computer conservation award has been established, is perhaps best known for leading the team that rebuilt Colossus, the world's first electronic computer. He was also a key figure in starting the campaign to save Bletchley Park in the early 1990s, he co-founded The National Museum of Computing and jointly established the Computer Conservation Society. Media Contact Stephen Fleming, Palam Communications, for the Computer Conservation Society +44 1635 299116 s.fleming at palam.co.uk From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 09:27:24 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 16:27:24 +0100 Subject: Nuclear Data, anyone? Message-ID: Someone found a number of paper tapes in a dumpster outside a building at University of Lund. They all had a sticker indicating Nuclear Data Inc. I received them and read them. Hopefully they read OK. Some of the tapes had been slightly damaged by water. ND41-1061-00_EXTENDED_PUSHBUTTON_OVERLAY_FOR_4410_PYSICS_ANAL_VERSION_A.bin ND41-1062-00_EXTENDED_PUSHBUTTON_HL_SPEED_READ_PUNCH_IO_FOR_4410_PHYSICS_VERSION_A.bin ND41-1076-01_PART4C_ND4420_SINGLE_PARAMETER_MONITOR_CASSETTE_OVERLAY_FOR_PRINT_LOADER_SHOULD_BE_IN_FIELD_1.bin ND41-1076-02_PART1_ND4420_SINGLE_PARAMETER_MONITOR_DO_NOT_LOAD_FROM_FIELD0.bin ND41-1076-02_PART2_ND4420_SINGLE_PARAMETER_MONITOR_DO_NOT_LOAD_FROM_FILED_0.bin ND41-1076-02_PART3_ND4420_SINGLE_PARAMETER_MONITOR_DO_NOT_LOAD_FROM_FIELD0.bin ND41-1076-02_PART4B_ND4420_SINGLE_PARAMETER_MONITOR_HIGH_SPEED_MAG_TAPE_OVERLAY_DO_NOT_LOAD_FROM_FIELD_0.bin ND41-1085-00_X-RAY_FUNCTIONS_OVERLAY_FOR_ND4410_LOADER_MUST_BE_IN_FIELD_1.bin ND41-1101-02-FLOATING_POINT_PACKAGE_MODIFIED_FOR_41-1060_SAN.A._.bin ND41-1102-03_MULTI_FIELD_FLOATING_POINT_CONTROL_FOR_41-1060.bin ND41-1104-00_EXTENDED_IO_OVERLAY_FOR_4410_SINGLE_PARAMETER_PHYSICS_ANALYZER_VERSION_A_8K_MEMORY_MINIMUM.bin ND41-1105-01_ND4410_BLOCK_FORMAT_CASSETTE_IO_OVERLAY_FOR_41-1060.bin ND41-1108-00_ND4410_PEAK_EXTRACTION_OVERLAY_WITH_PEAK_FIT_VERSION_A.bin ND41-5032-00_PEC_MAGNETIC_TAPE_COPIER-BLOCKED_FILES_VERSION.bin ND41-6012-00_ORCAL-6_16K_VERSION_SUPPORTS_HS_READER_AND_CASSETTE_SYSTEM.bin ND41_6001-02_ORCAL-2_8K_VERSION_LOW_SPEED_READER_ONLY.bin ORCAL6_8K_LC02_741016.bin Here is a picture of them: http://i.imgur.com/GEX7lmN.jpg Here is a tgz of all files (including a matching picture of tape itself) : https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/NuclearData/NuclearData.tgz Anyone interested in the actual tapes? Free for the cost of shipping. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 7 09:58:47 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 07:58:47 -0800 Subject: Nuclear Data, anyone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <545CEC37.2080809@bitsavers.org> On 11/7/14 7:27 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Someone found a number of paper tapes in a dumpster outside a building at > University of Lund. They all had a sticker indicating Nuclear Data Inc. I > received them and read them. Hopefully they read OK. Some of the tapes had > been slightly damaged by water. > These are for the ND812 12 bit computer. This is the first time anyone has come across any software for the machine. Docs, etc. up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/nd From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 11:35:23 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 11:35:23 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck & All, Hey, now +that's+ interesting.. I did look at the data for the MJE13007 and while I'm not exactly up-to-speed on solid state stuff, the specs seem to compare very well with the generic NTE 379 we've been discussing. And much like the NTE, suggested apps include SMPS, inverters and deflection circuits (I assume when they state the latter, "analog CRT" is implied?). Likewise, the PHE 13005 also compares fairly well, though it seems to have somewhat lower current ratings, both collector and base. The data specifies "lighting ballast" and makes no mention of SMPS or deflection service, though. I'm going to make a guess that it's not quite as fast a switching part as the others.. or maybe the 'on' resistance is a bit high-ish? But all three devices discussed have the same low beta, 8-10 min / 30-40 max. Naturally, I binned half a dozen bad CFLs only a week ago.. So Chuck, if it were yours, I take it that you'd throw a 13007 at it without a whole lot of further thought? It's looking very appealing, being I can buy 10 of them for about $4.50 including shipping, and they clearly have lots of other uses (like repairing SMPSUs and other small computer monitors). On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 1:30 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, Tony may have a problem with this one, but SMPSU transistors and > HOTs do share a lot of common characterists. For example, instead of the > NTE unit, consider the MJE13007, a old Motorola design that saw use in both > SMPSUs as well as HOTs. Common as dirt. > > eBay, for example, has a BIN for 10 of them for less than $6 shipped. > (item 140811430465). > > Compare the datasheets for yourself. > > > --CHuck > > P.S. I have a terrible, but relevant confession--I don't like to throw > things out as long as they contain useful parts. For example, I accumulate > bad CFLs then remove the lamp, extricate the electronics PCB, line them up > out of doors over a metal pail and apply a heat gun to the trace side of > the little pcb until the solder softens. Grab with pliers and bang each > one against the side of the pail to allow components to drop out and then > move on. > > Right now, I'm holding what fell out of the innards of a 20W CFL base. > There are several power transistors with heat sinks, several inductors, > diodes (of the 1N400x type), miscellaneous capacitors, etc. What makes > this germane to the topic under discussion is that the base contained two > NXP PHE 13005 transistors. Compare the datasheet with your NTE one. > > Like I said, common as dirt. > > > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 11:41:13 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 11:41:13 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> Message-ID: Say, one quick question... this has been bugging me. Exactly how is it that one little TO-220 device can have a Pt (total power dissipated, right?) of like 75W, when a plain 75W power resistor is physically many, many times larger and more massive? Does that Pt imply some serious heat-sinking or something? And if so, then why aren't all TO-220 power devices in the same range? Why would some be rated as low as 5-10W, if it's really a matter of sufficient cooling? On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 11:35 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > Chuck & All, > > Hey, now +that's+ interesting.. I did look at the data for the MJE13007 > and while I'm not exactly up-to-speed on solid state stuff, the specs seem > to compare very well with the generic NTE 379 we've been discussing. And > much like the NTE, suggested apps include SMPS, inverters and deflection > circuits (I assume when they state the latter, "analog CRT" is implied?). > > Likewise, the PHE 13005 also compares fairly well, though it seems to have > somewhat lower current ratings, both collector and base. The data > specifies "lighting ballast" and makes no mention of SMPS or deflection > service, though. I'm going to make a guess that it's not quite as fast a > switching part as the others.. or maybe the 'on' resistance is a bit > high-ish? But all three devices discussed have the same low beta, 8-10 min > / 30-40 max. > > Naturally, I binned half a dozen bad CFLs only a week ago.. > > So Chuck, if it were yours, I take it that you'd throw a 13007 at it > without a whole lot of further thought? It's looking very appealing, being > I can buy 10 of them for about $4.50 including shipping, and they clearly > have lots of other uses (like repairing SMPSUs and other small computer > monitors). > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 1:30 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Well, Tony may have a problem with this one, but SMPSU transistors and >> HOTs do share a lot of common characterists. For example, instead of the >> NTE unit, consider the MJE13007, a old Motorola design that saw use in both >> SMPSUs as well as HOTs. Common as dirt. >> >> eBay, for example, has a BIN for 10 of them for less than $6 shipped. >> (item 140811430465). >> >> Compare the datasheets for yourself. >> >> >> --CHuck >> >> P.S. I have a terrible, but relevant confession--I don't like to throw >> things out as long as they contain useful parts. For example, I accumulate >> bad CFLs then remove the lamp, extricate the electronics PCB, line them up >> out of doors over a metal pail and apply a heat gun to the trace side of >> the little pcb until the solder softens. Grab with pliers and bang each >> one against the side of the pail to allow components to drop out and then >> move on. >> >> Right now, I'm holding what fell out of the innards of a 20W CFL base. >> There are several power transistors with heat sinks, several inductors, >> diodes (of the 1N400x type), miscellaneous capacitors, etc. What makes >> this germane to the topic under discussion is that the base contained two >> NXP PHE 13005 transistors. Compare the datasheet with your NTE one. >> >> Like I said, common as dirt. >> >> >> >> > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 7 11:48:37 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 09:48:37 -0800 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <545D05F5.3050309@sydex.com> On 11/07/2014 09:35 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > So Chuck, if it were yours, I take it that you'd throw a 13007 at it > without a whole lot of further thought? It's looking very appealing, being > I can buy 10 of them for about $4.50 including shipping, and they clearly > have lots of other uses (like repairing SMPSUs and other small computer > monitors). I think I mentioned that Bob Boschert used HOTs in his early SMPSUs. But yeah, it's close enough that I'd give it a try. Perhaps a BU406 might be a bit better, but trying other candidates shouldn't do any permanent damage as long as the basic characteristics are close enough. --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 11:55:29 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 09:55:29 -0800 Subject: DECwriter Correspondent (LA12) mechanical issue... Message-ID: <545D0791.3070804@gmail.com> Hi all -- Got myself a nice looking DECwriter Correspondent (AKA the LA12). It's having a bit of trouble moving the carriage assembly and I can't find a service manual for this thing. (It's similar in some respects to the DECwriter IV, but the mechanical parts appear to be fairly different.) The carriage assembly (print head, ribbon) is carried from one end of the platen to the other via a cable attached to a servo motor on one end and a pulley on the other; in the middle of this cable is a small metal ball -- this ball is (as far as I can tell) meant to sit in a small "cup" on the underside of the carriage and when the cable moves, the ball pulls the carriage along. I'm assuming this was done this way since the Correspondent is meant to be portable, and allowing the carriage to break free of the pulley mechanism would probably reduce damage in the case of a sudden shock (like getting dropped.) So far so good -- unfortunately the vast majority of the time, the ball leaves the carriage behind (especially on carriage return) and I can't quite figure out what's out of tolerance -- the carriage appears to move smoothly, nothing is bent out of shape or broken as far as I can tell, and there's plenty of tension in the cable. There's also not much to adjust here so I'm kind of puzzled. I've put up a few pictures (and a short video demonstrating the problem) with the print head/ribbon removed here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/la12 Anyone ever worked on one of these before? Any ideas? Thanks as always, Josh From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 7 12:10:17 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 10:10:17 -0800 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <545D0B09.7050100@sydex.com> On 11/07/2014 09:41 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > Say, one quick question... this has been bugging me. > > Exactly how is it that one little TO-220 device can have a Pt (total power > dissipated, right?) of like 75W, when a plain 75W power resistor is > physically many, many times larger and more massive? Does that Pt imply > some serious heat-sinking or something? > > And if so, then why aren't all TO-220 power devices in the same range? Why > would some be rated as low as 5-10W, if it's really a matter of sufficient > cooling? Well, in the first place, it is cooling--a "naked" heatsink-less TO220 isn't going to last very long dissipating 75W--simple thermodynamics tells you that. But any transistor is a compromise when it comes to geometry vs. performance and characteristics. Here's a good paper on power transistor structure that goes into pretty good detail: http://elearning.vtu.ac.in/P2/EC42/1.pdf --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 7 13:17:38 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 14:17:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: list issues & status In-Reply-To: <01PEMKK9P7D4002Q2B@beyondthepale.ie> References: <010a01cff90f$88a60100$99f20300$@classiccmp.org> <20141105164009.GA28685@mooli.org.uk> <545A633E.8010305@bitsavers.org> <545A7243.6060506@sydex.com> <20141105191247.GO11232@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <67EA4E6B-AE1A-432B-8315-2EB5E1555236@uniwho.com> <15B1D053-9560-4850-B84C-7A2AE983B22E@uniwho.com> <20141105210758.GA3970@mooli.org.uk> <2A411508-95C8-4BDB-89F3-B3DDC1719963@fozztexx.com> <01PEMKK9P7D4002Q2B@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <201411071917.OAA05973@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > (Just yesterday I sent a second complaint to an outfit that sent me > another html only email.) I reject those at SMTP time. (Though my filters occasionally miss an HTML email labeled as plain text; I assume some UAs treat such things as HTML despite the labeling....) Mouse From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 14:14:40 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 14:14:40 -0600 Subject: No messages? In-Reply-To: <545CD0D0.4040406@sbcglobal.net> References: <545ADC7D.6060405@sbcglobal.net> <545B68CD.1060706@gmail.com> <20141106211207.GA28175@RawFedDogs.net> <545BED6D.2050308@gmail.com> <545C0950.6030102@sbcglobal.net> <000b01cffa42$98d9cd70$ca8d6850$@classiccmp.org> <545CD0D0.4040406@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <545D2830.8050209@gmail.com> On 11/07/2014 08:01 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> ====== I believe that Dennis reconstructed the list by parsing >> OUTBOUND emails (ie. the list sending to subscribers). Not from >> inbound emails (people emailing to the list). >> > Which makes it a bit odd that it didn't pick up my address then. Eh, > now worries. No, nor mine - I'm not sure how the list software works, but I wonder if it sends messages out in chunks (I have a feeling someone may have mentioned that before), and one or more got missed. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 14:38:26 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 14:38:26 -0600 Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info Message-ID: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> Random find in my local book store's pile of scrap electronics heading for recycling - a Netronics Phoneme speech synthesizer. IC dates all around mid-1982. I just have the board, no case or anything, but it appears to be reasonably self-contained: there's a connector for PSU, a phono which I'm guessing is speaker out, pots for volume and pitch, and a DB-25 connector. The DB-25 only has pins 1,2,3,7 & 20 in the socket, so I'm assuming it's RS-232. Does anyone know anything about these? Assuming it still works (it looks like it just expects 6-9VAC or thereabouts on the PSU connector), is the control protocol documented anywhere? DIP switch settings? (there are 8 on the board, labelled BSY, 3, 2, /C, /C, B, P, C) Looking at the PCB traces, it appears to allow data input by either pin 2 or 3 (dictated by the '2' and '3' DIP switch settings), but there's no data sent out down the serial line, so communication is write-only. I suppose it's possible that I hook up a terminal and (assuming that I have the line parameters right) start typing English, but it's probably not that simple ;) cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 7 14:41:11 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 20:41:11 +0000 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> , <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Well, Tony may have a problem with this one, but SMPSU transistors and > HOTs do share a lot of common characterists. For example, instead of > the NTE unit, consider the MJE13007, a old Motorola design that saw use > in both SMPSUs as well as HOTs. Common as dirt. I believe I said many messages ago that the horizontal output stage is a specialised SMPSU. It has been since the 1950s (yes, the 'line output valves' that I remember -- things like PL36, PL81, PL504, PL509, etc -- are choppers). In the UK the BU208 (metal TO3 package) turned up in countless horizontal output stages and SMPSUs. BUT... My experience is that some horizontal output stages (and some more conventional SMPSUs) can be remarkably fickle about what transistors will work there. And since the OP is having odd problems, I would want to reduce the number of variables. If it doesn't work with an MJE13007, then what? Is it that this transistor is not suitable, or is there some other fault? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 7 14:47:45 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 20:47:45 +0000 Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info In-Reply-To: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> References: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Random find in my local book store's pile of scrap electronics heading for > recycling - a Netronics Phoneme speech synthesizer. IC dates all around > mid-1982. What are the main ICs on the board (basically anything other than TTL, 4000 series CMOS or common op-amps)? -tony From bensinc at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 08:03:44 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 08:03:44 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: I've been working on getting a PDP-11/23 running for a while now, with various amounts of success! I had it in a state where I could boot XXDP from a virtual TU-58 and everything seemed to work pretty well. I then got ambitious and got an RL02 and an RLV11 (M8013+M8014), and last night I tried to get the RLV11 to pass the unconnected diagnostics that just test the controller. I tinkered with it for a while, but never got it to work. Then, in between trying a few things (but without touching the hardware), the machine seemed to get very flaky. Right now I can still boot an XXDP tape image, but as soon as I try to do anything it dumps me back to ODT: NOT ENOUGH MEMORY TO BOOT XXDP-XM BOOTING UP XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR - XXDP V2.6 REVISION: E0 BOOTED FROM DD0 28KW OF MEMORY NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM RESTART ADDRESS: 152010 TYPE "H" FOR HELP . 150674 @ I tried removing the RLV11 boards, returning the machine to it's former state, but I have the same issue. I'm pretty new to all of this and always have trouble figuring out what the next debugging step should be. My machine is a PDP-11/23 with a H9273 backplane. I have, in this order from the top: M8186, M8043, M8044DF, and an M8012 at the bottom. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks! -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 7 15:18:00 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 13:18:00 -0800 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> , <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> On 11/07/2014 12:41 PM, tony duell wrote: >, I would want to reduce the number of variables. If it doesn't work > with an MJE13007, then what? Is it that this transistor is not suitable, or is there some other > fault? That's why god made oscilloscopes, Tony :) But really, a well-designed circuit will work with a wide variety of devices, as the two enemies of humanity--purchasing managers and device tolerances--will always be there to bedevil us. If an MJE13007 doesn't work, try another. If not that, try, say, a BU406. I seem to recall that some early Macs would work with an MJE13007 just fine, but others of the same model required the BU406. Personally, I don't think that Zenith would ever make the mistake of requiring selected semiconductors on what is essentially the video section of a TV set, something that they made in the millions. The service manual for the DT2 certainly makes no mention of it. In any case, the monitor itself is not in any particular danger of being destroyed by an out-of-spec HOT, so there's little risk involved. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 15:17:08 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 15:17:08 -0600 Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info In-Reply-To: References: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> On 11/07/2014 02:47 PM, tony duell wrote: >> Random find in my local book store's pile of scrap electronics heading for >> recycling - a Netronics Phoneme speech synthesizer. IC dates all around >> mid-1982. > > What are the main ICs on the board (basically anything other than TTL, 4000 > series CMOS or common op-amps)? The CPU is an RCA 1802, there's a CDP1852 which is a parallel I/O port IC, RAM is a pair of 2114's, and a 24-pin IC which has a sticker on top saying (unhelpfully) "IC-584" (but I expect it's ROM). Finally we have a 22 pin IC labeled "SC-01-A" - Google tells me that's the actual speech synthesizer IC. The remaining ICs on the board are all simple logic (74xx etc.) I found some evidence that the boards were advertised to the hobbyist market in Byte and the like back in the day, so it's possible that what I've got is exactly what the owner received; there never was any case and such. cheers Jules From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Nov 7 15:22:35 2014 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 21:22:35 +0000 Subject: DECwriter Correspondent (LA12) mechanical issue... In-Reply-To: <545D0791.3070804@gmail.com> References: <545D0791.3070804@gmail.com> Message-ID: Josh, is there a spring clip missing someplace? I know nothing about that system but your description just makes me think that, and often springs are the first to corrode or rust to the point that they fall off. - Mark On Nov 7, 2014, at 11:55 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Got myself a nice looking DECwriter Correspondent (AKA the LA12). It's having a bit of trouble moving the carriage assembly and I can't find a service manual for this thing. (It's similar in some respects to the DECwriter IV, but the mechanical parts appear to be fairly different.) > > The carriage assembly (print head, ribbon) is carried from one end of the platen to the other via a cable attached to a servo motor on one end and a pulley on the other; in the middle of this cable is a small metal ball -- this ball is (as far as I can tell) meant to sit in a small "cup" on the underside of the carriage and when the cable moves, the ball pulls the carriage along. I'm assuming this was done this way since the Correspondent is meant to be portable, and allowing the carriage to break free of the pulley mechanism would probably reduce damage in the case of a sudden shock (like getting dropped.) > > So far so good -- unfortunately the vast majority of the time, the ball leaves the carriage behind (especially on carriage return) and I can't quite figure out what's out of tolerance -- the carriage appears to move smoothly, nothing is bent out of shape or broken as far as I can tell, and there's plenty of tension in the cable. There's also not much to adjust here so I'm kind of puzzled. > > I've put up a few pictures (and a short video demonstrating the problem) with the print head/ribbon removed here: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/la12 > > Anyone ever worked on one of these before? Any ideas? > > Thanks as always, > Josh From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 7 15:48:37 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 16:48:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141107214837.9481F18C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair > Then, in between trying a few things (but without touching the > hardware), the machine seemed to get very flaky. > ... > I tried removing the RLV11 boards, returning the machine to it's former > state, but I have the same issue. This is a total _guess_, but... I've recently been working with some 11/23's I just bought, and I too had similar flakies appear mysteriously with one of them. I'm not sure exactly which of the below finally cured them, but you can try the following things (one of which finally did it for me - after sitting for a long time, the connections can possibly be slightly flaky): - re-seat all the cards in the backplane - re-seat the chips on the CPU card (take them out _very_ carefully, slowly levering from all 4 corners - they are brittle, and you can fracture the carrier if you get too aggressive) - re-seat all the jumpers on the CPU card I also discovered and repaired at least two cold-solder joints (one was one of the pins for W1, the master clock control - the pin was actually loose when I wiggled it). Cold solder joints are pretty insidious - they can work fine for a while, and then start to give problems. Do you have more than one memory card that you can swap in/around? That might be it, too. Noel From bensinc at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 16:04:16 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 16:04:16 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141107214837.9481F18C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141107214837.9481F18C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, I'll try those suggestions! I'm actually on my second memory board. I just never got it to boot with the first board, so I ordered a new one on a whim that worked. I did find another cheap M80186, so when that arrives I have a spare to try swapping. On Friday, November 7, 2014, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ben Sinclair > > > Then, in between trying a few things (but without touching the > > hardware), the machine seemed to get very flaky. > > ... > > I tried removing the RLV11 boards, returning the machine to it's > former > > state, but I have the same issue. > > This is a total _guess_, but... I've recently been working with some > 11/23's I > just bought, and I too had similar flakies appear mysteriously with one of > them. > > I'm not sure exactly which of the below finally cured them, but you can try > the following things (one of which finally did it for me - after sitting > for > a long time, the connections can possibly be slightly flaky): > > - re-seat all the cards in the backplane > - re-seat the chips on the CPU card (take them out _very_ carefully, slowly > levering from all 4 corners - they are brittle, and you can > fracture > the carrier if you get too aggressive) > - re-seat all the jumpers on the CPU card > > I also discovered and repaired at least two cold-solder joints (one was > one of > the pins for W1, the master clock control - the pin was actually loose > when I > wiggled it). Cold solder joints are pretty insidious - they can work fine > for > a while, and then start to give problems. > > Do you have more than one memory card that you can swap in/around? That > might be it, too. > > Noel > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Nov 7 16:59:31 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 22:59:31 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <545D4ED3.5080209@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/11/2014 14:03, Ben Sinclair wrote: > My machine is a PDP-11/23 with a H9273 backplane. I have, in this order > from the top: M8186, M8043, M8044DF, and an M8012 at the bottom. It shouldn't really matter on such a small configuration, but the M8044 (MSV11-D) would normally be immediately below the processor, and the M8043 (DLV11-J) below that. Other than that, I'd start by reseating things as Noel suggested, check the PSU especially the +5V line, and check the line-time clock signal (it may be wired to the AUX switch on your BA11-N box). -- Pete Turnbull From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 17:33:06 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 15:33:06 -0800 Subject: DECwriter Correspondent (LA12) mechanical issue... In-Reply-To: References: <545D0791.3070804@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > Josh, > is there a spring clip missing someplace? I know nothing about > that system but your description just makes me think that, and often > springs are the first to corrode or rust to the point that they fall off. > It's possible that something's missing, but it definitely didn't rust off. This thing is in immaculate condition (I'm not sure it was ever actually used). If something fell off, it's not rattling around anywhere that I can see, but it's certainly possible. Thanks, Josh > > - Mark > > On Nov 7, 2014, at 11:55 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > Hi all -- > > > > Got myself a nice looking DECwriter Correspondent (AKA the LA12). It's > having a bit of trouble moving the carriage assembly and I can't find a > service manual for this thing. (It's similar in some respects to the > DECwriter IV, but the mechanical parts appear to be fairly different.) > > > > The carriage assembly (print head, ribbon) is carried from one end of > the platen to the other via a cable attached to a servo motor on one end > and a pulley on the other; in the middle of this cable is a small metal > ball -- this ball is (as far as I can tell) meant to sit in a small "cup" > on the underside of the carriage and when the cable moves, the ball pulls > the carriage along. I'm assuming this was done this way since the > Correspondent is meant to be portable, and allowing the carriage to break > free of the pulley mechanism would probably reduce damage in the case of a > sudden shock (like getting dropped.) > > > > So far so good -- unfortunately the vast majority of the time, the ball > leaves the carriage behind (especially on carriage return) and I can't > quite figure out what's out of tolerance -- the carriage appears to move > smoothly, nothing is bent out of shape or broken as far as I can tell, and > there's plenty of tension in the cable. There's also not much to adjust > here so I'm kind of puzzled. > > > > I've put up a few pictures (and a short video demonstrating the problem) > with the print head/ribbon removed here: > > > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/la12 > > > > Anyone ever worked on one of these before? Any ideas? > > > > Thanks as always, > > Josh > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 18:42:04 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 18:42:04 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> Message-ID: Question.. On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/07/2014 12:41 PM, tony duell wrote: > > If an MJE13007 doesn't work, try another. If not that, try, say, a >> BU406. I seem to recall that some early Macs would work with an MJE13007 >> just fine, but others of the same model required the BU406. >> > Early Macs.. like Macintosh all-in-one computers? Mac RGB monitors? Some other kind of Mac? > > Personally, I don't think that Zenith would ever make the mistake of > requiring selected semiconductors on what is essentially the video section > of a TV set, something that they made in the millions. > No, they just re-mark otherwise common, work-a-day parts with meaningless in-house numbers while failing to ensure that the relevant service data is freely available. ;-) Anyway, now I've half a mind to rip apart a CFL to see if it has a yummy center. What about an old 350W ATX PSU? Anything good in those? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 19:00:30 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 19:00:30 -0600 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? Message-ID: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> So, my local bookstore guy has an IBM 5151 monitor for sale, which is surprising because: a) I haven't seen *any* vintage IBM PC kit locally in the last 8 years, b) I picked up a 5160 with an MDA display adapter but non-IBM monitor from John over in Duluth a few weeks ago, and I was thinking what a shame it was that it didn't have the original IBM screen. So, it's almost like it's meant to be, or something... Of course working condition is unknown, so before I commit to it, are there any common showstoppers with these displays (failed CRT, yoke windings, LOPT etc.) - or are whatever faults that may be typical with them all in components that are still available? (I'm kicking myself a bit because he said I was welcome to bring it home over the weekend to try it out and then bring it back if I decided I didn't want it - I just couldn't remember at the time if the 5151 was the MDA display or something else, but with hindsight I probably should have just taken it regardless!) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 7 20:40:12 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 18:40:12 -0800 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> Message-ID: <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> On 11/07/2014 04:42 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Early Macs.. like Macintosh all-in-one computers? Mac RGB monitors? Some > other kind of Mac? The 68K classic Macs. > > No, they just re-mark otherwise common, work-a-day parts with meaningless > in-house numbers while failing to ensure that the relevant service data is > freely available. ;-) > > Anyway, now I've half a mind to rip apart a CFL to see if it has a yummy > center. What about an old 350W ATX PSU? Anything good in those? Oh, probably. I tend to repair supplies rather than junk them, though. I can't repair CFLs of course--although there was a time when the tube could be purchased separately to plug into the ballast unit. I wish we still had those. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 7 20:44:13 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 18:44:13 -0800 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <545D837D.7000800@sydex.com> On 11/07/2014 05:00 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Of course working condition is unknown, so before I commit to it, are > there any common showstoppers with these displays (failed CRT, yoke > windings, LOPT etc.) - or are whatever faults that may be typical with > them all in components that are still available? In general, they were pretty reliable and *very* simple internally. The big gotcha I've seen in these is screen burn. I can't opine on available parts, however. There was a time that the MGA (Hercules Graphics) was one of the better adapter-monitor combinations for fine work. Shadow-mask color CRTs have a certain granularity to the display, while the monochrome display doesn't suffer from that. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 20:59:18 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 20:59:18 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> Message-ID: Heh, wow.. On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I can't repair CFLs of course--although there was a time when the tube > could be purchased separately to plug into the ballast unit. I wish we > still had those. > > Dude.. I'm not sure where you're situated, but around here, the local big-box home store (Menards) sells 8-packs of 60W equiv. CFLs for like $5.99 on-sale, and the sales come up quite often. Less than a buck per hole. Sales guy there once said that the local utility (here it's Xcel Energy) subsidizes the prices for some reason.. must be some idiot carbon-cutting / offsetting regulation crap, or something like that, I'd guess. But FWIW, that's what we were told. Gotta keep those polar bears in seal blubber, ya know.. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 7 21:09:38 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 19:09:38 -0800 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> Message-ID: <545D8972.9040908@sydex.com> On 11/07/2014 06:59 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Sales guy there once said that the local utility (here it's Xcel Energy) > subsidizes the prices for some reason.. must be some idiot carbon-cutting / > offsetting regulation crap, or something like that, I'd guess. But FWIW, > that's what we were told. Gotta keep those polar bears in seal blubber, ya > know.. Oh, I think I pay less than $2 the each here, but a lot of those things are really Chinese crap--and they seldom last their stated life. If all my fixtures were base-down, they might last longer, but they're not--by an large, they're IC recessed "cans". One of the reasons that I don't invest in LED Edison base replacements is that I suspect the electronics will have its life considerably shortened by thermal issues. Manufacturers hem and haw about this issue a lot. --Chuck From tdriscoll_1940 at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 7 09:58:22 2014 From: tdriscoll_1940 at sbcglobal.net (Agent Orange) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 10:58:22 -0500 Subject: To unsubscribe... In-Reply-To: <2cad71464c237fae56a0232342a6f479@ljw.me.uk> References: <67a0b036d171a8237e1611419299fbd4@ljw.me.uk> <2cad71464c237fae56a0232342a6f479@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <545CEC1E.10908@sbcglobal.net> UNSUBSCRIBE =================================================================================================================================================================================================== On 11/5/2014 10:47 AM, LJW cctech wrote: > Apologies for the typo: > > To unsubscribe from a different address: > UNSUBSCRIBE mypassword ADDRESS=me at test.com > > > On 2014-11-05 15:39, LJW cctech wrote: >> Send an email to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org or >> cctech-request at classiccmp.org with the subject as follows: >> (If you're not sure which list you're on, send it to both) >> >> To unsubscribe from the address you are mailing from: >> UNSUBSCRIBE >> This will send out a confirmation email >> >>>> To unsubscribe from a different address: >>>> UNSUSCRIBE mypassword ADDRESS=me at test.com >> >> To temporarily suspend delivery of messages: >> SET DELIVERY OFF >> (use ON to turn it back on again) >> >> To get a full list of commands (for digests etc.): >> HELP >> This will include a link to the web page for subscription >> administration, which may be a better option. > From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri Nov 7 14:43:25 2014 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam ibn Abraham) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 12:43:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: WANTED: Sharkware Professional 2.0 for Windows Message-ID: Is it possible that anyone has a copy of Sharkware Professional 2.0 for Windows and would like to sell it? If so, please contact me directly. Thanks! -- Sellam ibn Abraham VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. The truth is always simple. * * * NOTICE * * * Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered reliable for any purpose either express or implied. The contents of this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. The right of the people to be secure in their papers against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated. From francois.dion at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 18:35:10 2014 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 19:35:10 -0500 Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info In-Reply-To: <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> References: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <41433E3D-3FF9-44D5-8DDA-4F34EC150BA9@gmail.com> El Nov 7, 2014, a las 4:17 PM, Jules Richardson escribi?: > On 11/07/2014 02:47 PM, tony duell wrote: >>> Random find in my local book store's pile of scrap electronics heading for >>> recycling - a Netronics Phoneme speech synthesizer. IC dates all around >>> mid-1982. >> >> What are the main ICs on the board (basically anything other than TTL, 4000 >> series CMOS or common op-amps)? > > The CPU is an RCA 1802, there's a CDP1852 which is a parallel I/O port IC, RAM is a pair of 2114's, and a 24-pin IC which has a sticker on top saying (unhelpfully) "IC-584" (but I expect it's ROM). > > Finally we have a 22 pin IC labeled "SC-01-A" - Google tells me that's the actual speech synthesizer IC. The remaining ICs on the board are all simple logic (74xx etc.) Votrax speech synth > I found some evidence that the boards were advertised to the hobbyist market in Byte and the like back in the day, so it's possible that what I've got is exactly what the owner received; there never was any case and such. > This will fill in some blanks: http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/pdf/pe/1982/CE1982-Dec-pg47.pdf Francois From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 20:37:51 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 21:37:51 -0500 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <671FCFA6955C429E96F3C310A04EA2AD@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" > P.S. I have a terrible, but relevant confession--I don't like to throw > things out as long as they contain useful parts. For example, I > accumulate bad CFLs then remove the lamp, extricate the electronics PCB, > line them up out of doors over a metal pail and apply a heat gun to the > trace side of the little pcb until the solder softens.... Et tu, Carolus? From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 21:34:52 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2014 22:34:52 -0500 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> <545D8972.9040908@sydex.com> Message-ID: <44308E6780224A5490F3A5432390A968@310e2> "Don't be alarmed if you see smoke or fire" (coming out of your CFLs) - "It's just the end of life" http://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/consumerwatch-cfl-bulb-safety-1.1210152 CFLs definitely do not like being enclosed or upside down; they can also create substantial RF interference.And then there's the mercury content, dim light, especially when cold, etc. But they're a good source of parts... I haven't had my LED lamps long enough yet to see how they fare in those conditions. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 10:09 PM Subject: Re: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues > On 11/07/2014 06:59 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> Sales guy there once said that the local utility (here it's Xcel Energy) >> subsidizes the prices for some reason.. must be some idiot carbon-cutting >> / >> offsetting regulation crap, or something like that, I'd guess. But FWIW, >> that's what we were told. Gotta keep those polar bears in seal blubber, >> ya >> know.. > > Oh, I think I pay less than $2 the each here, but a lot of those things > are really Chinese crap--and they seldom last their stated life. If all > my fixtures were base-down, they might last longer, but they're not--by an > large, they're IC recessed "cans". One of the reasons that I don't invest > in LED Edison base replacements is that I suspect the electronics will > have its life considerably shortened by thermal issues. > > Manufacturers hem and haw about this issue a lot. > > --Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 7 23:11:38 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 21:11:38 -0800 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <671FCFA6955C429E96F3C310A04EA2AD@310e2> References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <671FCFA6955C429E96F3C310A04EA2AD@310e2> Message-ID: <545DA60A.1060108@sydex.com> On 11/07/2014 06:37 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" > >> P.S. I have a terrible, but relevant confession--I don't like to >> throw things out as long as they contain useful parts. For example, I >> accumulate bad CFLs then remove the lamp, extricate the electronics >> PCB, line them up out of doors over a metal pail and apply a heat gun >> to the trace side of the little pcb until the solder softens.... > > Et tu, Carolus? Consuetudinis magna vis est. When I was a young sprout, I toured the alleys looking for old radios that could be stripped for parts. Later TV sets (some of those old power transformers were magnificent and went into power supplies). When I started working with integrated circuits, I'd buy junked boards and depopulate them. I probably still have a few of those things. Part of being the son of Depression-era parents. I can't stand to see things go to waste, I guess. I yam what I yam. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 7 23:37:23 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2014 21:37:23 -0800 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <44308E6780224A5490F3A5432390A968@310e2> References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> <545D8972.9040908@sydex.com> <44308E6780224A5490F3A5432390A968@310e2> Message-ID: <545DAC13.4060802@sydex.com> On 11/07/2014 07:34 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > CFLs definitely do not like being enclosed or upside down; they can also > create substantial RF interference.And then there's the mercury content, > dim light, especially when cold, etc. But they're a good source of parts... The other day, when replacing yet another (GE) CFL after about 10 months of service, I observed that I still had plenty of 20-year-old incandescents installed, but not a single CFL. And I purchased them by the carton then. Over the past couple of years, I've replaced the dark-activated 7W "night lights" in my home with modern white LED ones. Big mistake--after about 2 years, they're much dimmer than they started out to be. I didn't replace the EL or neon night-lights and they're all still fine. I don't get it. Or maybe I do. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 7 23:37:33 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 05:37:33 +0000 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> , <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> , <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > >, I would want to reduce the number of variables. If it doesn't work > > with an MJE13007, then what? Is it that this transistor is not suitable, or is there some other > > fault? > > That's why god made oscilloscopes, Tony :) But really, a well-designed You may know what all the waveforms should be, I could probably make a fair guess. But the OP admits he's new to this stuff, I was just trying to make it simple for him > If an MJE13007 doesn't work, try another. If not that, try, say, a > BU406. I seem to recall that some early Macs would work with an > MJE13007 just fine, but others of the same model required the BU406. In other words the transistor can be critical. > > Personally, I don't think that Zenith would ever make the mistake of > requiring selected semiconductors on what is essentially the video > section of a TV set, something that they made in the millions. The > service manual for the DT2 certainly makes no mention of it. Hmmm... Not a horizontal output stage, but I have bitter memories of the PSU in a Zenith MDA monitor. This darn PSU combined the reliability of a switcher with the efficiency of a linear (!). It was a free-running (no regulation) chopper stage feeding a chopper transformer. The output of that was rectified/smoothed and gave about 20V DC. It was then regulated down to 12V for the monitor by a discrete transistor linear circuit -- the reference voltage didn't come from a zener diode, it was the drop across the green power-on LED. Anyway this thing would eat choppers. Sometime it would run for a few minutes and then the chopper would short. I finally found _a_ transistor that lasted. I could find no other faults (caps and diodes all OK or replaced, transformer rang OK, etc). I concluded the original transistor had been selected for something-or-other. Does your DT2 manual give the industry standard number or just the house number for the HOT? If the former, then sure, it's not selected. If the latter, it may well have been. And no, a failed HOT is not going to do more damage to the monitor. It might to the OP's (in)sanity, though :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 7 23:42:49 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 05:42:49 +0000 Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info In-Reply-To: <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> References: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> , <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > What are the main ICs on the board (basically anything other than TTL, 4000 > series CMOS or common op-amps)? > > The CPU is an RCA 1802, there's a CDP1852 which is a parallel I/O port IC, > RAM is a pair of 2114's, and a 24-pin IC which has a sticker on top saying > (unhelpfully) "IC-584" (but I expect it's ROM). > > Finally we have a 22 pin IC labeled "SC-01-A" - Google tells me that's the > actual speech synthesizer IC. The remaining ICs on the board are all > simple logic (74xx etc.) The SC01 is a well-known Votrax speech synthesiser IC. I am sure you can find a data sheet somewhere (I have it, I think, but my stuff is still packed after the move!). A 24 pin ROM is not going to be more than 8K (It would be useful to know how big it is). You _might_ get text-to-speech in that. With no UART, I guess it bit-bangs the serial protocol (I am surprised there's no CDP1854 on the board). Pity. If there was a UART you could stick a 'scope on the baud clock input and find out what bit rate to use. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 7 23:49:28 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 05:49:28 +0000 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Of course working condition is unknown, so before I commit to it, are there > any common showstoppers with these displays (failed CRT, yoke windings, > LOPT etc.) - or are whatever faults that may be typical with them all in > components that are still available? It's a very simple circuit, the schematic is in the TechRef. One odd feature is that there is no horizontal oscillator, it just drives the horizontal section from the pulses on the Hsync (more correctly HDrive) input. As for failures, the CRT is a common 7 pin one (although finding a spare with the long persistance phosphor might be interesting), I have never had one fail, though. Screen burn can be a problem (particularly if the old owner used it for spreadsheets a lot :-)). I've never had a yoke fail. At one time the LOPT was available from 3rd party suppliers, no idea if you can still find one. Biggest Gotcha is getting inside. You can end up dropping the mains transformer (linear PSU) on the back of the CRT if you do it wrongly!. Take out the 2 square caps on top and the screws under them. Put the monitor face down, free the cables from the back case and take out the 2 screws on the flange that obviously join the case parts. On the bottom are 6 further screws, often covered by paper circles (!). Take out the 4 on the back case part only. These hold the chassis in place, with the heavy transformer on it, you do not want it totally free. Now lift off the back case. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 7 23:51:50 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 05:51:50 +0000 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> , <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> Message-ID: > I can't repair CFLs of course--although there was a time when the tube > could be purchased separately to plug into the ballast unit. I wish we > still had those. I found the old ones with the iron-cored choke ballast to be a lot more reliable than the modern ones with the SMPSU-type thing... No surprise there! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 7 23:55:30 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 05:55:30 +0000 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <671FCFA6955C429E96F3C310A04EA2AD@310e2> References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com>,<671FCFA6955C429E96F3C310A04EA2AD@310e2> Message-ID: From: "Chuck Guzis" > P.S. I have a terrible, but relevant confession--I don't like to throw > things out as long as they contain useful parts. For example, I > accumulate bad CFLs then remove the lamp, extricate the electronics PCB, > line them up out of doors over a metal pail and apply a heat gun to the > trace side of the little pcb until the solder softens.... I thought I was the only person to do things like that. Yes, I strip old CFLs for parts... In my younger days I used to take the top off every dead 9V battery I was throwing out, it made connector to fit on a similar battery in a project I was making. Oh well... -tony From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 6 11:42:59 2014 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 12:42:59 -0500 Subject: Resubscribed - test Message-ID: <545BB323.4010708@sbcglobal.net> I know you won't ignore, even if I ask... :) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu Thu Nov 6 14:31:17 2014 From: knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu (Kurt Nowak) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 12:31:17 -0800 Subject: test message. do not read. Message-ID: This is just a test. I seem to no longer be getting mail from this list From simski at dds.nl Sat Nov 8 03:03:19 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 10:03:19 +0100 Subject: DECwriter Correspondent (LA12) mechanical issue... In-Reply-To: References: <545D0791.3070804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <545DDC57.6060600@dds.nl> I will take a look at our specimens in our collection. we have one with a acoustic coupler and one without. On 07-11-14 22:22, Tapley, Mark wrote: > Josh, > is there a spring clip missing someplace? I know nothing about that system but your description just makes me think that, and often springs are the first to corrode or rust to the point that they fall off. > - Mark > > On Nov 7, 2014, at 11:55 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Hi all -- >> >> Got myself a nice looking DECwriter Correspondent (AKA the LA12). It's having a bit of trouble moving the carriage assembly and I can't find a service manual for this thing. (It's similar in some respects to the DECwriter IV, but the mechanical parts appear to be fairly different.) >> >> The carriage assembly (print head, ribbon) is carried from one end of the platen to the other via a cable attached to a servo motor on one end and a pulley on the other; in the middle of this cable is a small metal ball -- this ball is (as far as I can tell) meant to sit in a small "cup" on the underside of the carriage and when the cable moves, the ball pulls the carriage along. I'm assuming this was done this way since the Correspondent is meant to be portable, and allowing the carriage to break free of the pulley mechanism would probably reduce damage in the case of a sudden shock (like getting dropped.) >> >> So far so good -- unfortunately the vast majority of the time, the ball leaves the carriage behind (especially on carriage return) and I can't quite figure out what's out of tolerance -- the carriage appears to move smoothly, nothing is bent out of shape or broken as far as I can tell, and there's plenty of tension in the cable. There's also not much to adjust here so I'm kind of puzzled. >> >> I've put up a few pictures (and a short video demonstrating the problem) with the print head/ribbon removed here: >> >> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/la12 >> >> Anyone ever worked on one of these before? Any ideas? >> >> Thanks as always, >> Josh > > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 06:50:07 2014 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?St=C3=A9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 13:50:07 +0100 Subject: VAXen in Hawai Message-ID: Civil Bytes: Our New Governor Should Upgrade State?s Sorry Technology http://www.civilbeat.com/2014/11/civil-bytes-our-new-governor-should-upgrade-states-sorry-technology/ -- Stephane From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 06:50:07 2014 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?St=C3=A9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 13:50:07 +0100 Subject: VAXen in Hawai Message-ID: Civil Bytes: Our New Governor Should Upgrade State?s Sorry Technology http://www.civilbeat.com/2014/11/civil-bytes-our-new-governor-should-upgrade-states-sorry-technology/ -- Stephane From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 8 09:58:54 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 10:58:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141108155854.819CE18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Noel Chiappa > I also discovered and repaired at least two cold-solder joints (one was > one of the pins for W1, the master clock control - the pin was actually > loose when I wiggled it). So it turns out that loose wire-wrap pins seem to be a systemic problem on 11/23's. I just discovered _3_ more on one single 11/23 board - two of them the pins for the master clock! I put my finger-tip on them and wiggled, and they were loose. I'm not sure why it's the wire-wrap pins especially - maybe their physical size meant that they have larger thermal inertia, and so need a longer heat than the manufacturing process gave them, to bring them up to temp to prevent a cold solder joint? Anyway, if one has a flaky 11/23, that's definitely something to check. Noel From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 10:43:15 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 10:43:15 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> Message-ID: Not to hijack my own thread.. On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 11:51 PM, tony duell wrote: > > I can't repair CFLs of course--although there was a time when the tube > > could be purchased separately to plug into the ballast unit. I wish we > > still had those. > > I found the old ones with the iron-cored choke ballast to be a lot > more reliable than the modern ones with the SMPSU-type thing... > > No surprise there! > > A few weeks ago, I had to put a new AC cord on a Luxo magnifier lamp, the type with the 20W circular fluorescent tube. I was really surprised to find nothing but an iron-core choke in the base.. no starter device, nada.. just a choke in series with the line cord (and the lamp) I assume. It +is+ the type where you must hold down the power button for a moment to light it, so perhaps that's a (manual?) starting mechanism. But in any case, I was a little puzzled that's all there was to it, so to speak. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 10:54:59 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 10:54:59 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <44308E6780224A5490F3A5432390A968@310e2> References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> <545D8972.9040908@sydex.com> <44308E6780224A5490F3A5432390A968@310e2> Message-ID: Good god! Here's a choice quote from the linked article: "The Underwriters Laboratories, the organization responsible for the safety and testing of the bulbs, said some manufacturers have changed the circuitry to reduce the negative effects when the bulbs burn out. They say people should not be alarmed if they see smoke or flames, however. ?The reality is in investigations of these incidents, we generally find it?s just the end of life,? said the organization." Not to be "alarmed" if they see smoke or flames, and "It's just the END OF LIFE"?! Wow, nice choice of words, there.. yeah, the end of life for the children sleeping upstairs, I guess. So I'm not really the conspiracy type - but either the UL has been bought-off by the CFL mfrs, or that organization is a pale, hollow shell of its former self. Since when in hell does the UL not consider +open flames+ from a small appliance to be a cause for alarm? There was a time when they freaked-out over excessively large or improperly placed cooling slots, that could allow a child (or idiot) to stick an object into the works of an electrical device.. and yet today they brush-off light bulbs that 'commonly' emit smoke and flame? On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > "Don't be alarmed if you see smoke or fire" (coming out of your CFLs) - > "It's just the end of life" > > http://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/consumerwatch-cfl-bulb-safety-1.1210152 > > CFLs definitely do not like being enclosed or upside down; they can also > create substantial RF interference.And then there's the mercury content, > dim > light, especially when cold, etc. But they're a good source of parts... > > I haven't had my LED lamps long enough yet to see how they fare in those > conditions. > > m > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" > To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 10:09 PM > Subject: Re: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues > > > > On 11/07/2014 06:59 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> >> Sales guy there once said that the local utility (here it's Xcel Energy) >>> subsidizes the prices for some reason.. must be some idiot carbon-cutting >>> / >>> offsetting regulation crap, or something like that, I'd guess. But FWIW, >>> that's what we were told. Gotta keep those polar bears in seal blubber, >>> ya >>> know.. >>> >> >> Oh, I think I pay less than $2 the each here, but a lot of those things >> are really Chinese crap--and they seldom last their stated life. If all >> my fixtures were base-down, they might last longer, but they're not--by an >> large, they're IC recessed "cans". One of the reasons that I don't invest >> in LED Edison base replacements is that I suspect the electronics will >> have its life considerably shortened by thermal issues. >> >> Manufacturers hem and haw about this issue a lot. >> >> --Chuck >> >> >> > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 8 11:15:59 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 09:15:59 -0800 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> Message-ID: <545E4FCF.1030308@sydex.com> On 11/08/2014 08:43 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > A few weeks ago, I had to put a new AC cord on a Luxo magnifier lamp, the > type with the 20W circular fluorescent tube. I was really surprised to find > nothing but an iron-core choke in the base.. no starter device, nada.. just > a choke in series with the line cord (and the lamp) I assume. It +is+ the > type where you must hold down the power button for a moment to light it, so > perhaps that's a (manual?) starting mechanism. But in any case, I was a > little puzzled that's all there was to it, so to speak. Yup, the inductive "kick" is enough to reach the firing voltage of the fluorescent lamp. You can get rid of the annoying "push and hold" phenomenon by replacing the switch that temporarily completes the heater circuit with an inexpensive "starter" unit. -Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 11:17:24 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 11:17:24 -0600 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey, I had a question about this.. On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 11:49 PM, tony duell wrote: > > It's a very simple circuit, the schematic is in the TechRef. One odd > feature is that > there is no horizontal oscillator, it just drives the horizontal section > from > the pulses on the Hsync (more correctly HDrive) input. This is the same situation as the Osborne Vixen + Zenith 7" display. The display takes in a horiz. signal (a vert. as well, but that's another matter) which gets routed to a transistor, and then a 555 timer. From there, one more transistor and then comes the horiz. driver & opt. section. Anyway, the first two transistors and the 555 are collectively labeled "horizontal oscillator".. but that's not exactly the case, is it? I measured the horiz. input signal at roughly 16Khz; the chassis says it uses a 15.7Khz signal, so I assume that's the true freq. So if that's the case, it doesn't actually need an oscillator, does it? My guess was that the 555 was more of pulse-shaping deal.. it only uses the horiz. input as a trigger pulse, and then outputs a clean square / rectangle wave of whatever duty they want from the 555. That pulse then gets amplified. shaped, whatever by the next stage until it feeds the horiz. driver which in turn feeds the HOT. Is that what's going on in these monitors? @Jules I'm pretty sure I have one good-working 5151 monitor here, and just maybe a dead unit as well. If you need the worker as a reference, you're welcome to borrow it for as long as you require it to get yours repaired. Please just promise to be very careful with it.. ;-) And if I have it, the other one might be a parts donor should you need anything specific to the design, that you can't get off the shelf etc. Keep it in mind, for when we meet-up next spring or whenever. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 11:23:16 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 11:23:16 -0600 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <545E5184.6090701@gmail.com> On 11/07/2014 11:49 PM, tony duell wrote: > Screen burn can be a problem Hmm, that's a good point. I think in severe cases it's usually visible with the screen powered off, so I suppose I can tell if it's really bad. Or I might just haul my 5160 in and try it out at the store :-) > Biggest Gotcha is getting inside. Thanks for the details - fingers crossed it won't come to that! Book store guy also buys electronics scrap by the pound, so I'll see how many junk modern PC motherboards I can rustle up to help offset the cost... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 11:36:40 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 11:36:40 -0600 Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info In-Reply-To: <41433E3D-3FF9-44D5-8DDA-4F34EC150BA9@gmail.com> References: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> <41433E3D-3FF9-44D5-8DDA-4F34EC150BA9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <545E54A8.5070409@gmail.com> On 11/07/2014 06:35 PM, Francois Dion wrote: > This will fill in some blanks: > http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/pdf/pe/1982/CE1982-Dec-pg47.pdf That looks perfect - thanks! J. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 8 12:26:11 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 18:26:11 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141108155854.819CE18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141108155854.819CE18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <545E6043.7000708@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/11/2014 15:58, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So it turns out that loose wire-wrap pins seem to be a systemic problem on > 11/23's. I just discovered _3_ more on one single 11/23 board - two of them > the pins for the master clock! I put my finger-tip on them and wiggled, and > they were loose. I've had dozens of those pass through my hands or at least across my workbench and I don't recall ever seeing that. But given your experience, it's clearly something to watch for nowadays. I wonder if it's exacerbated by the wire-wrapping being done. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 8 12:30:20 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 13:30:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <545DA60A.1060108@sydex.com> References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <671FCFA6955C429E96F3C310A04EA2AD@310e2> <545DA60A.1060108@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201411081830.NAA00495@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > When I was a young sprout, I toured the alleys looking for old radios > that could be stripped for parts. Later TV sets (some of those old > power transformers were magnificent and went into power supplies). Me too - well, not alleys; in my case, my folks were living in a small village and the dead electronics came from the town dump. I amassed a bit of a collection of vacuum tubes, sockets, and assorted discrete parts from stuff obtained there. > Part of being the son of Depression-era parents. I can't stand to > see things go to waste, I guess. Aye, me too. My parents grew up during the Depression, and it shows. "Use it up, wear it out, make it do - or do without." /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 8 12:44:41 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 13:44:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <545DAC13.4060802@sydex.com> References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> <545D8972.9040908@sydex.com> <44308E6780224A5490F3A5432390A968@310e2> <545DAC13.4060802@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201411081844.NAA04004@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Over the past couple of years, I've replaced the dark-activated 7W > "night lights" in my home with modern white LED ones. Big > mistake--after about 2 years, they're much dimmer than they started > out to be. Yeah, "white LED"s are pretty close to white, but only sort-of LEDs. They're fluorescent lights driven by (IIRC) ultraviolet LEDs, and they have the dimming-with-age issues most fluorescent lights do. > I didn't replace the EL or neon night-lights and they're all still > fine. Yeah. Up here (Ontario), some misguided fool[%] has managed to get 100W incandescents banned. (Well, not entirely. Just manufacture or import of them. Possession and use are still permitted. Also, there are some exceptions, such as rough-service bulbs.) > I don't get it. Or maybe I do. Yeah, as near as I can figure it's a planned-obsolescence play, dressed up in "green" rhetoric, by the makers of the various short-life bulbs. I wrote about this a little on my blah; see http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/2011-11-13-1.html, the two footnotes in particular. [%] Assuming you don't push the causality back far enough to reach someone with a vested interest in this campaign.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Nov 8 15:19:08 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 15:19:08 -0600 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: <545E5184.6090701@gmail.com> References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> <545E5184.6090701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <545E88CC.7070204@pico-systems.com> On 11/08/2014 11:23 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Book store guy also buys electronics scrap by the pound, > so I'll see how many junk modern PC motherboards I can > rustle up to help offset the cost... > If anybody comes across an 80286 motherboard, I have a pick and place machine that has a NON-PC 286 that runs it, and I might like a set of spare 286 chips, "just in case...". I'm in the central US. Thanks, Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Nov 8 15:22:37 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 15:22:37 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <545E6043.7000708@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20141108155854.819CE18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <545E6043.7000708@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <545E899D.2060407@pico-systems.com> On 11/08/2014 12:26 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 08/11/2014 15:58, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> So it turns out that loose wire-wrap pins seem to be a >> systemic problem on >> 11/23's. I just discovered _3_ more on one single 11/23 >> board - two of them >> the pins for the master clock! I put my finger-tip on >> them and wiggled, and >> they were loose. > > I've had dozens of those pass through my hands or at least > across my workbench and I don't recall ever seeing that. > But given your experience, it's clearly something to watch > for nowadays. I wonder if it's exacerbated by the > wire-wrapping being done. > I'm guessing the problem was that the wire wrap pin had broken free of the solder joint to the etched PC board? My guess is more along the lines of frequent board insertion/extraction fatigued the solder joint, as pushing the board in/out does wiggle the pin just a little. I haven't seen this problem either on DEC stuff, but I can imagine it happening. it might have been a batch of backplane that was not soldered quite properly, either temp profile wrong or some kind of contamination of the solder bath. Jon From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Nov 8 16:57:58 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 16:57:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <201411081844.NAA04004@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> <545D8972.9040908@sydex.com> <44308E6780224A5490F3A5432390A968@310e2> <545DAC13.4060802@sydex.com> <201411081844.NAA04004@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 2014, Mouse wrote: >> Over the past couple of years, I've replaced the dark-activated 7W >> "night lights" in my home with modern white LED ones. Big >> mistake--after about 2 years, they're much dimmer than they started out >> to be. > > Yeah, "white LED"s are pretty close to white, but only sort-of LEDs. > They're fluorescent lights driven by (IIRC) ultraviolet LEDs, and they > have the dimming-with-age issues most fluorescent lights do. > >> I didn't replace the EL or neon night-lights and they're all still >> fine. > > Yeah. Up here (Ontario), some misguided fool[%] has managed to get 100W > incandescents banned. (Well, not entirely. Just manufacture or import > of them. Possession and use are still permitted. Also, there are some > exceptions, such as rough-service bulbs.) Same in the US, illegal to manufacture or import (still legal to own, use, or sell remaining inventory). Part of the "Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007". That bill was backed heavily by lightbulb manufacturers such as GE, Osram Sylvania, and Philips, likely to help them push their sales of compact fluorescents, which at that point weren't selling well and have a much higher profit margin than incandescents. What most people don't realize, is that bill didn't just ban 100W incandescents, but the whole range of 40W, 60W, 75W, and 100W incandescents (as well as many PAR reflector types), PLUS all T12 fluorescent tubes, magnetic ballasts, and quite possibly a lot of T8 fluorescent tubes too. >> I don't get it. Or maybe I do. > > Yeah, as near as I can figure it's a planned-obsolescence play, dressed > up in "green" rhetoric, by the makers of the various short-life bulbs. I > wrote about this a little on my blah; see > http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/2011-11-13-1.html, the two > footnotes in particular. > > [%] Assuming you don't push the causality back far enough to reach > someone with a vested interest in this campaign.... IMO the incandescent and T12 fluorescent lightbulb ban is the result of a modern day incarnation of the Phoebus cartel [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel], except that this time they have unlimited amounts of money to throw at politicians and very little in the way of election spending laws to limit them. My own way of punishing these companies is to buy LED replacements from independent companies such as Cree who is not owned by GE, Osram Sylvania, or Philips. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 8 17:01:49 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 23:01:49 +0000 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> , Message-ID: > > It's a very simple circuit, the schematic is in the TechRef. One odd > > feature is that > > there is no horizontal oscillator, it just drives the horizontal section > > from > > the pulses on the Hsync (more correctly HDrive) input. > > > This is the same situation as the Osborne Vixen + Zenith 7" display. The > display takes in a horiz. signal (a vert. as well, but that's another > matter) which gets routed to a transistor, and then a 555 timer. From > there, one more transistor and then comes the horiz. driver & opt. section. > Anyway, the first two transistors and the 555 are collectively labeled > "horizontal oscillator".. but that's not exactly the case, is it? The IBM 5151 has no horizontal oscillator at all. The input signal goes straight to the horizontal driver stage. This Zenith monitor does have an oscillator. The 555 is an astable (compare it with the standard 555 circuits). -tony From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Nov 8 17:02:14 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 17:02:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <545E899D.2060407@pico-systems.com> References: <20141108155854.819CE18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <545E6043.7000708@dunnington.plus.com> <545E899D.2060407@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 2014, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/08/2014 12:26 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 08/11/2014 15:58, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >>> So it turns out that loose wire-wrap pins seem to be a systemic >>> problem on 11/23's. I just discovered _3_ more on one single 11/23 >>> board - two of them the pins for the master clock! I put my finger-tip >>> on them and wiggled, and they were loose. >> >> I've had dozens of those pass through my hands or at least across my >> workbench and I don't recall ever seeing that. But given your >> experience, it's clearly something to watch for nowadays. I wonder if >> it's exacerbated by the wire-wrapping being done. > > I'm guessing the problem was that the wire wrap pin had broken free of > the solder joint to the etched PC board? My guess is more along the > lines of frequent board insertion/extraction fatigued the solder joint, > as pushing the board in/out does wiggle the pin just a little. I > haven't seen this problem either on DEC stuff, but I can imagine it > happening. it might have been a batch of backplane that was not > soldered quite properly, either temp profile wrong or some kind of > contamination of the solder bath. It would have been hand soldered. Wirewrap pins can't be wave soldered since that would contaminate the gold or silver plated pins with solder (the solder would dissolve and strips the gold or silver from the pin). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 8 17:08:34 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 23:08:34 +0000 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> , Message-ID: > A few weeks ago, I had to put a new AC cord on a Luxo magnifier lamp, the > type with the 20W circular fluorescent tube. I was really surprised to find > nothing but an iron-core choke in the base.. no starter device, nada.. just > a choke in series with the line cord (and the lamp) I assume. It +is+ the > type where you must hold down the power button for a moment to light it, so > perhaps that's a (manual?) starting mechanism. But in any case, I was a > little puzzled that's all there was to it, so to speak. The normal fluorescent lamp starter is an automatic switch, effectively. Often it's a little discharge lamp (argon filled, most of the time) with bimetallic strips for electrodes. At switch on, the starter lamp strikes, the electrodes get hot, bend and touch. This energises the filaments in the fluorescent tube. Since the starter is shorted out (by the electrodes touching), it cools down, the electrodes spring apart. The sudden open circuit causes a large back emf from the ballast choke, which strikes fluorescent tube (the hot filaments in said tube emit electrons, making it a lot easier to strike). Anyway, if your magnifying lamp is anything like the one I repaired years ago, there is a momentary contact set on the on button. It's wired in the same way as the automatic starter switch in a normal fluorescent lamp. When you press and hold the on button, the filaments in the fluorescent tube warm up. When you release it, you open this circuit, causing the back emf from the ballast to strike the tube. -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 8 17:04:19 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 23:04:19 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <545E899D.2060407@pico-systems.com> References: <20141108155854.819CE18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <545E6043.7000708@dunnington.plus.com> <545E899D.2060407@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <545EA173.3060808@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/11/2014 21:22, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/08/2014 12:26 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 08/11/2014 15:58, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >>> So it turns out that loose wire-wrap pins seem to be a systemic >>> problem on 11/23's. >> I wonder if it's exacerbated by the wire-wrapping being done. > I'm guessing the problem was that the wire wrap pin had broken free > of the solder joint to the etched PC board? My guess is more along > the lines of frequent board insertion/extraction fatigued the solder > joint, as pushing the board in/out does wiggle the pin just a > little. I haven't seen this problem either on DEC stuff, but I can > imagine it happening. it might have been a batch of backplane that > was not soldered quite properly, either temp profile wrong or some > kind of contamination of the solder bath. I didn't think Noel was referring to backplane pins - they're not wirewrap pins nor do they carry the master clock - but to the various jumper pins on the 11/23 PCB itself. There's a pair there to disconnect the master clock for factory testing. Noel? -- Pete From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 8 18:21:59 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2014 00:21:59 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141108155854.819CE18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <545E6043.7000708@dunnington.plus.com> <545E899D.2060407@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <545EB3A7.8050807@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/11/2014 23:02, Tothwolf wrote: > It would have been hand soldered. Wirewrap pins can't be wave soldered > since that would contaminate the gold or silver plated pins with solder > (the solder would dissolve and strips the gold or silver from the pin). The "wirewrap" pins on the 11/23 and many other DEC boards are short pins that are accessed on the /component/ side of the board and used for jumper links, eg to select baud rates, or in the case of an 11/23 to set the boot configuration and other things. See for example the images at http://store.reuseum.com/DEC_M8186_F11_Fonz_CPU_Processor_Board_Q_Bus_p/000021514002g14store.htm There's a group of pins with their jumpers to the right of the middle 40-pin IC. Look carefully and you'll see 5 (IIRC) other pairs, including one near the top left of the crystal oscillator with a jumper on it, and one with no jumper to the right of the smaller IC two rows above the main jumper group. Other DEC boards such as DLV11J and the notorious (because of gazillions of jumper options) MXV11B do actually use wirewrap to such pins rather than jumpers, in a few cases 2-level wrap. -- Pete From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 8 18:55:57 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 19:55:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141109005557.778BD18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Turnbull > I didn't think Noel was referring to backplane pins .. but to the > various jumper pins on the 11/23 PCB itself. .. Noel? Correct. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Nov 8 21:04:05 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 21:04:05 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141108155854.819CE18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <545E6043.7000708@dunnington.plus.com> <545E899D.2060407@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <545ED9A5.60404@pico-systems.com> On 11/08/2014 05:02 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > > It would have been hand soldered. Wirewrap pins can't be > wave soldered since that would contaminate the gold or > silver plated pins with solder (the solder would dissolve > and strips the gold or silver from the pin). > No, I don't think so. I think the PDP-11 backplanes were mass-soldered in some way. I have some real DEC and also some clone backplanes. The pins appear to be pure tin plated, and the soldering is such that there's no way it was done by hand. Possibly some very early backplanes might have been hand soldered. The early ones had no PC board, just the Winchester connectors and wire-wrap wires. I've NEVER seen a DEC backplane with gold or silver-plated pins. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Nov 8 21:05:56 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 21:05:56 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <545EB3A7.8050807@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20141108155854.819CE18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <545E6043.7000708@dunnington.plus.com> <545E899D.2060407@pico-systems.com> <545EB3A7.8050807@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <545EDA14.5020209@pico-systems.com> On 11/08/2014 06:21 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > The "wirewrap" pins on the 11/23 and many other DEC boards > are short pins that are accessed on the /component/ side > of the board and used for jumper links, eg to select baud > rates, or in the case of an 11/23 to set the boot > configuration and other things. OHH! THOSE pins! I had no idea you were referring to the pins on the individual boards! Jon From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 21:24:37 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 21:24:37 -0600 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> Message-ID: Tony, Ok, then I guess I +really+ don't get it. Why does the Zenith +need+ a horiz. osc. when it also requires the horiz. input signal - which just happens to be at the exact same frequency (15.7KHz) as the horiz. osc? What is the horiz. input used for, then, if not to set the frequency of the 555 output? The 555 acting as a monostable (aka one-shot) triggered by the horiz. signal makes more sense.. I'm not saying that's the case, just that I can't see why it would need be otherwise when a properly-clocked signal is already provided for it. Then again, if it works the way I am presuming, the 555 could maybe be replaced with a Schmitt trigger - eh? On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 5:01 PM, tony duell wrote: > > > > It's a very simple circuit, the schematic is in the TechRef. One odd > > > feature is that > > > there is no horizontal oscillator, it just drives the horizontal > section > > > from > > > the pulses on the Hsync (more correctly HDrive) input. > > > > > > This is the same situation as the Osborne Vixen + Zenith 7" display. The > > display takes in a horiz. signal (a vert. as well, but that's another > > matter) which gets routed to a transistor, and then a 555 timer. From > > there, one more transistor and then comes the horiz. driver & opt. > section. > > Anyway, the first two transistors and the 555 are collectively labeled > > "horizontal oscillator".. but that's not exactly the case, is it? > > The IBM 5151 has no horizontal oscillator at all. The input signal goes > straight to the horizontal > driver stage. > > This Zenith monitor does have an oscillator. The 555 is an astable > (compare it with the standard 555 > circuits). > > -tony From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 21:31:08 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 21:31:08 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> Message-ID: Tony, Yeah, I see now how the button acts as a manual starter. Fluorescent lighting is one of those things I've just never bothered to think about - so I read the Wiki article on it, and now I've got it down. It's such a ubiquitous technology, that I've never had the occasion to need to know much about it.. just replace the bulb when it won't light, and if that doesn't do it, check the starter.. failing that, replace the ballast or the whole dang fixture, if it's one of those workbench cheap-o units. Oh - and there is one more component in the Luxo. There's a cap wired in parallel with the tube, probably does double-duty as power factor correction and saving the starter switch contacts from arc damage when they break open and the coil kicks back. On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 5:08 PM, tony duell wrote: > > A few weeks ago, I had to put a new AC cord on a Luxo magnifier lamp, the > > type with the 20W circular fluorescent tube. I was really surprised to > find > > nothing but an iron-core choke in the base.. no starter device, nada.. > just > > a choke in series with the line cord (and the lamp) I assume. It +is+ the > > type where you must hold down the power button for a moment to light it, > so > > perhaps that's a (manual?) starting mechanism. But in any case, I was a > > little puzzled that's all there was to it, so to speak. > > The normal fluorescent lamp starter is an automatic switch, effectively. > Often it's a little > discharge lamp (argon filled, most of the time) with bimetallic strips for > electrodes. At switch > on, the starter lamp strikes, the electrodes get hot, bend and touch. This > energises the filaments > in the fluorescent tube. Since the starter is shorted out (by the > electrodes touching), it cools down, the > electrodes spring apart. The sudden open circuit causes a large back emf > from the ballast choke, which > strikes fluorescent tube (the hot filaments in said tube emit electrons, > making it a lot easier to strike). > > Anyway, if your magnifying lamp is anything like the one I repaired years > ago, there is a momentary > contact set on the on button. It's wired in the same way as the automatic > starter switch in a normal > fluorescent lamp. When you press and hold the on button, the filaments in > the fluorescent tube > warm up. When you release it, you open this circuit, causing the back emf > from the ballast to > strike the tube. > > -tony > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Nov 8 22:26:08 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 20:26:08 -0800 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1E442843-3EA1-4B4B-B6C7-01349C615CE0@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Nov-08, at 7:24 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Tony, > > Ok, then I guess I +really+ don't get it. > > Why does the Zenith +need+ a horiz. osc. when it also requires the horiz. > input signal - which just happens to be at the exact same frequency > (15.7KHz) as the horiz. osc? What is the horiz. input used for, then, if > not to set the frequency of the 555 output? No, in a strict sense, a TV or monitor doesn't 'need' a horizontal or vertical oscillator, it just needs the V & H sync pulses to start the ramp generation at the proper time. Historically however, a TV had V & H oscillators so that: 1. A raster would be present when there was no signal, in part so it didn't burn a hole in the center of the screen. 2. The raster would ride through sync pulse dropouts on weak or marginal signals, rather than collapsing sporadically. 3. The horizontal oscillator needed to keep going, consistently, so the CRT HiV would be generated and stable. (One might argue 3 mitigates 1, no HiV, no burn). Once you have the oscillators, you still need the sync pulses to keep the raster scan ramps in phase sync with the video picture information. Early computer monitors were just slightly hacked/improved versions of TV monitors and old design habits die hard. As mentioned, some designs did do away with the oscillators, when the sync could be relied upon to be present and stable. IIRC, the Commodore PET with it's built-in monitor was another of those. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 23:03:45 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 23:03:45 -0600 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: <1E442843-3EA1-4B4B-B6C7-01349C615CE0@cs.ubc.ca> References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> <1E442843-3EA1-4B4B-B6C7-01349C615CE0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Hey Brent, I guess I'm still confused.. and for the purposes of my inquiry & discussion, let's stick to what's going on with the Osborne / Zenith setup - OK? It sounds like you're saying that the horiz. osc. in the Zenith monitor is synced in both phase & frequency to the horiz. input signal provided by the computer motherboard. But if the horiz. signal were to disappear for some reason, the osc. would continue to run... is that correct? So if the osc. continued to run in absence of the horiz. signal, how would it stay on-frequency? And much more importantly - If it's capable of setting its own operating frequency, how does the horiz. signal input override that? And why didn't Osborne "trust" their hardware to provide a horiz. signal - while IBM and (as you say) Commodore PET clearly did - ultimately, what did this amount to, if anything? Sorry for so many dumb questions. Oh, and here's another.. about the meaning of 'raster'. When we talk about the presence or lack of a /raster/, do we mean the 'lighted rectangle' on the CRT screen? Or is the raster the horiz & vert travelling beam that 'paints' the lighted rectangle? I ask, as some video t-shooting guides have determiners like "Raster present / No raster?". I ask, as I was taught that the scanning beam itself is the 'raster'.. but it seems more like the evidence of that beam - a lighted rectangle - is what's actually meant. And yes, I know the derivation of the term. Raster is from Greek 'rastrum', essentially meaning a rake.. which makes some sense, of course, as the H/V systems produce a pattern on the screen much like a rake dragged across sand. On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 10:26 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2014-Nov-08, at 7:24 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > Tony, > > > > Ok, then I guess I +really+ don't get it. > > > > Why does the Zenith +need+ a horiz. osc. when it also requires the horiz. > > input signal - which just happens to be at the exact same frequency > > (15.7KHz) as the horiz. osc? What is the horiz. input used for, then, if > > not to set the frequency of the 555 output? > > No, in a strict sense, a TV or monitor doesn't 'need' a horizontal or > vertical oscillator, it just needs the V & H sync pulses to start the ramp > generation at the proper time. > > Historically however, a TV had V & H oscillators so that: > 1. A raster would be present when there was no signal, in part so > it didn't burn a hole in the center of the screen. > 2. The raster would ride through sync pulse dropouts on weak or > marginal signals, rather than collapsing sporadically. > 3. The horizontal oscillator needed to keep going, consistently, > so the CRT HiV would be generated and stable. > > (One might argue 3 mitigates 1, no HiV, no burn). > > Once you have the oscillators, you still need the sync pulses to keep the > raster scan ramps in phase sync with the video picture information. > > Early computer monitors were just slightly hacked/improved versions of TV > monitors and old design habits die hard. > > As mentioned, some designs did do away with the oscillators, when the > sync could be relied upon to be present and stable. IIRC, the Commodore PET > with it's built-in monitor was another of those. > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 03:33:36 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 09:33:36 -0000 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <545EB3A7.8050807@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20141108155854.819CE18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <545E6043.7000708@dunnington.plus.com> <545E899D.2060407@pico-systems.com> <545EB3A7.8050807@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <00a801cffc00$3cfbacc0$b6f30640$@gmail.com> > The "wirewrap" pins on the 11/23 and many other DEC boards are short pins > that are accessed on the /component/ side of the board and used for jumper > links, eg to select baud rates, or in the case of an 11/23 to set the boot > configuration and other things. See for example the images at > http://store.reuseum.com/DEC_M8186_F11_Fonz_CPU_Processor_Board_ > Q_Bus_p/000021514002g14store.htm > > There's a group of pins with their jumpers to the right of the middle 40-pin IC. On that pic those links look like a DIL socket, not wire wrap pins. But if wire wrap pins are used like that its not surprising they work loose. I would expect them to be plated steel and therefore have characteristics that are bad for soldering. That is:- 1. Have a relatively large mass as they need to be stiff to wire wrap 2. Therefore have a large thermal mass or heat capacity 3. So they are slow to heat up -> may not get hot enough to solder 4. Slow to cool -> likely hood of dry joints if they move while cooling 5. Poor solder whetting as they can be hard to clean.... So not surprising they sometimes work loose. > Look carefully and you'll see 5 (IIRC) other pairs, including one near the top > left of the crystal oscillator with a jumper on it, and one with no jumper to > the right of the smaller IC two rows above the main jumper group. Other > DEC boards such as DLV11J and the notorious (because of gazillions of jumper > options) MXV11B do actually use wirewrap to such pins rather than jumpers, > in a few cases 2-level wrap. > > -- > Pete From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 9 04:19:28 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 02:19:28 -0800 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> <1E442843-3EA1-4B4B-B6C7-01349C615CE0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2014-Nov-08, at 9:03 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Hey Brent, > > I guess I'm still confused.. and for the purposes of my inquiry & > discussion, let's stick to what's going on with the Osborne / Zenith setup > - OK? > > It sounds like you're saying that the horiz. osc. in the Zenith monitor is > synced in both phase & frequency to the horiz. input signal provided by the > computer motherboard. But if the horiz. signal were to disappear for some > reason, the osc. would continue to run... is that correct? That would be the idea, you'd still have HiV, and you'd still have some semblance of a ..raster. > So if the osc. continued to run in absence of the horiz. signal, how would > it stay on-frequency? > And much more importantly - If it's capable of > setting its own operating frequency, how does the horiz. signal input > override that? Speaking vaguely, each sync pulse restarts the oscillator to the beginning of a cycle. But the free-running F of the oscillator should be near the target F so that the sync pulse only has to 'pull' it a little ways (in time). When you adjust the H-sync control of an (old) TV/monitor you're adjusting the H oscillator F, to bring it into the capture range of the sync control. Electronically, it can be accomplished in a number of manners, from a simple 'reset' of some sort to PLL style phase detection. > And why didn't Osborne "trust" their hardware to provide a > horiz. signal - while IBM and (as you say) Commodore PET clearly did - > ultimately, what did this amount to, if anything? Might be just a matter of who they sourced the monitor from. It was the beginning of the period of transition from 'TVs' to 'computer monitors'. There are some other benefits to having the raster and HiV there when sync is lost, such as the visible raster may give some clues as to a problem. In the Zenith case, how much difference is there between a 555 astable and monostable? (A: not much). > Sorry for so many dumb questions. Oh, and here's another.. about the > meaning of 'raster'. > > When we talk about the presence or lack of a /raster/, do we mean the > 'lighted rectangle' on the CRT screen? Or is the raster the horiz & vert > travelling beam that 'paints' the lighted rectangle? I ask, as some video > t-shooting guides have determiners like "Raster present / No raster?". I > ask, as I was taught that the scanning beam itself is the 'raster'.. but it > seems more like the evidence of that beam - a lighted rectangle - is what's > actually meant. I've always taken raster to mean, as you say, the lighted rectangle, drawn by an electron beam in a progressive line by line scan. The mere presence of a drawing beam would encompass many/all other types of CRT displays besides raster displays. > And yes, I know the derivation of the term. Raster is from Greek 'rastrum', > essentially meaning a rake.. which makes some sense, of course, as the H/V > systems produce a pattern on the screen much like a rake dragged across > sand. > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 10:26 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> On 2014-Nov-08, at 7:24 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >>> Tony, >>> >>> Ok, then I guess I +really+ don't get it. >>> >>> Why does the Zenith +need+ a horiz. osc. when it also requires the horiz. >>> input signal - which just happens to be at the exact same frequency >>> (15.7KHz) as the horiz. osc? What is the horiz. input used for, then, if >>> not to set the frequency of the 555 output? >> >> No, in a strict sense, a TV or monitor doesn't 'need' a horizontal or >> vertical oscillator, it just needs the V & H sync pulses to start the ramp >> generation at the proper time. >> >> Historically however, a TV had V & H oscillators so that: >> 1. A raster would be present when there was no signal, in part so >> it didn't burn a hole in the center of the screen. >> 2. The raster would ride through sync pulse dropouts on weak or >> marginal signals, rather than collapsing sporadically. >> 3. The horizontal oscillator needed to keep going, consistently, >> so the CRT HiV would be generated and stable. >> >> (One might argue 3 mitigates 1, no HiV, no burn). >> >> Once you have the oscillators, you still need the sync pulses to keep the >> raster scan ramps in phase sync with the video picture information. >> >> Early computer monitors were just slightly hacked/improved versions of TV >> monitors and old design habits die hard. >> >> As mentioned, some designs did do away with the oscillators, when the >> sync could be relied upon to be present and stable. IIRC, the Commodore PET >> with it's built-in monitor was another of those. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Nov 9 07:19:27 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2014 13:19:27 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <00a801cffc00$3cfbacc0$b6f30640$@gmail.com> References: <20141108155854.819CE18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <545E6043.7000708@dunnington.plus.com> <545E899D.2060407@pico-systems.com> <545EB3A7.8050807@dunnington.plus.com> <00a801cffc00$3cfbacc0$b6f30640$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <545F69DF.9030607@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/11/2014 09:33, Dave G4UGM wrote: > On that pic those links look like a DIL socket, not wire wrap pins. I suppose they do look a bit like a socket in that shot, but they are wirewrap -- or more accurately, jumper -- pins, though. And normally pretty reliable, as much as any other jumper pins. They're quite short, about the size of the jumper pins you'd see on older 3.5" or 5.25" disk drives or a little shorter than Molex KK pins, much shorter than than ordinary wirewrap pins, and don't have much thermal inertia. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 9 10:43:44 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2014 08:43:44 -0800 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> <1E442843-3EA1-4B4B-B6C7-01349C615CE0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <545F99C0.3010405@sydex.com> I'll add this to the 5151 issue. Because the 5151 responds to *every* horizontal sync pulse, it's quite possible to toast the flyback transformer with the wrong frequency. I know--I've done it. Contrast with a simple astable multivibrator which would simply lose synch . --Chuck From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sun Nov 9 11:20:52 2014 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 09:20:52 -0800 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: <545F99C0.3010405@sydex.com> References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> <1E442843-3EA1-4B4B-B6C7-01349C615CE0@cs.ubc.ca> <545F99C0.3010405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <002c01cffc41$84200b00$8c602100$@comcast.net> I also lost a 5151 monitor to a program crash, it was "Gone in Sixty Seconds" or less. I replaced it with a third party monitor that had the advertised feature of not burning up due to lost sync. Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2014 8:44 AM To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? I'll add this to the 5151 issue. Because the 5151 responds to *every* horizontal sync pulse, it's quite possible to toast the flyback transformer with the wrong frequency. I know--I've done it. Contrast with a simple astable multivibrator which would simply lose synch . --Chuck From georgerachor at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 11:10:23 2014 From: georgerachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 09:10:23 -0800 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: <545F99C0.3010405@sydex.com> References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> <1E442843-3EA1-4B4B-B6C7-01349C615CE0@cs.ubc.ca> <545F99C0.3010405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <34CDB9DE-DC35-44CA-89DA-7218C7D146F5@gmail.com> And it only takes a few seconds to disable the flyback.. permanently (yup.. done it too), George Rachor georgerachor at gmail.com On Nov 9, 2014, at 8:43 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'll add this to the 5151 issue. Because the 5151 responds to *every* horizontal sync pulse, it's quite possible to toast the flyback transformer with the wrong frequency. I know--I've done it. > > Contrast with a simple astable multivibrator which would simply lose synch . > > --Chuck > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 12:28:19 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 12:28:19 -0600 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: <545F99C0.3010405@sydex.com> References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> <1E442843-3EA1-4B4B-B6C7-01349C615CE0@cs.ubc.ca> <545F99C0.3010405@sydex.com> Message-ID: That's nuts.. so not only is the monitor relying on the computer to feed it a sane horizontal pulse, but that pulse rate isn't fixed or even securely delimited in hardware? Just POKEing the wrong memory location or writing bad data to some software register can set a catastrophically destructive video mode? Ok, yeah, I think I see the merits of having a fail-safe system ala the oscillator in the Zenith units we've elsewhere discussed. But of course, this does raise yet another obvious question.. why feed the monitor with a H-sync from the computer hardware in the first place? In the Zenith / Osborne situation, the only possible answer would seem to be "No need to ever adjust (and as such, no need to even implement) a manual horizontal hold control". But for the IBM PC / 5151, it's a little less clear.. was there a perceived or real need to be able to software-switch the hotizontal (and/or vertical) scan rates? Some kind of text / framebuffer vs. hi-res mode-timing situation as we see in more modern (SVGA etc) monitors? FWIW, way back in the bad old days of manually editing /etc/XF86Config, I do recall various warnings about tinkering with / feeding a bad modeline to the wrong type of monitor.. could result in major damage, and so on. So I guess this sort of thing went on for a very long time, then.. same basic situation? On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 10:43 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'll add this to the 5151 issue. Because the 5151 responds to *every* > horizontal sync pulse, it's quite possible to toast the flyback transformer > with the wrong frequency. I know--I've done it. > > Contrast with a simple astable multivibrator which would simply lose synch > . > > --Chuck > > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 12:47:26 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2014 12:47:26 -0600 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: <545F99C0.3010405@sydex.com> References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> <1E442843-3EA1-4B4B-B6C7-01349C615CE0@cs.ubc.ca> <545F99C0.3010405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <545FB6BE.1050201@gmail.com> On 11/09/2014 10:43 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'll add this to the 5151 issue. Because the 5151 responds to *every* > horizontal sync pulse, it's quite possible to toast the flyback transformer > with the wrong frequency. I know--I've done it. I'd remembered something about being able to damage the display and mentioned it to book store guy - I didn't realise it was the flyback itself that it toasted, though. I'll have to borrow it and see if it works before buying, I suppose. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 12:49:44 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2014 12:49:44 -0600 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> <1E442843-3EA1-4B4B-B6C7-01349C615CE0@cs.ubc.ca> <545F99C0.3010405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <545FB748.2070805@gmail.com> On 11/09/2014 12:28 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > That's nuts.. so not only is the monitor relying on the computer to feed it > a sane horizontal pulse, but that pulse rate isn't fixed or > even securely delimited in hardware? Just POKEing the wrong memory location > or writing bad data to some software register can set a catastrophically > destructive video mode? IBM mentality at work, possibly - they figured nobody would be running non-IBM software on it, and of course their own software would be tested to ensure that it didn't happen :-) (Weren't certain Commodore PETs susceptible to a similar scenario?) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 9 12:52:39 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2014 10:52:39 -0800 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> <1E442843-3EA1-4B4B-B6C7-01349C615CE0@cs.ubc.ca> <545F99C0.3010405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <545FB7F7.3010808@sydex.com> On 11/09/2014 10:28 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > That's nuts.. so not only is the monitor relying on the computer to feed it > a sane horizontal pulse, but that pulse rate isn't fixed or > even securely delimited in hardware? Just POKEing the wrong memory location > or writing bad data to some software register can set a catastrophically > destructive video mode? Yup, just some stray port outputs is enough to do it. You'll note that the 5153 doesn't go this route, but has a regular horizontal oscillator circuit. > Ok, yeah, I think I see the merits of having a fail-safe system ala the > oscillator in the Zenith units we've elsewhere discussed. But of course, > this does raise yet another obvious question.. why feed the monitor with a > H-sync from the computer hardware in the first place? I'm not entirely sure what you mean. If it's "why not have the monitor furnish sync signals instead of the CRT controller>", it's a matter of what's available, I guess. There weren't that many LSI CRTC's back then, and none of them could support such a scheme, that I'm aware of. > In the Zenith / Osborne situation, the only possible answer would seem to > be "No need to ever adjust (and as such, no need to even implement) a > manual horizontal hold control". It's there, but intended to be an "adjust at the factory and then cross your fingers". > But for the IBM PC / 5151, it's a little less clear.. was there a > perceived or real need to be able to software-switch the hotizontal > (and/or vertical) scan rates? Some kind of text / framebuffer vs. > hi-res mode-timing situation as we see in more modern (SVGA etc) > monitors? You really do need to tweak the timing. Witness the arguments to the DOS MODE command that allows for shifting the image one way or the other. > FWIW, way back in the bad old days of manually editing /etc/XF86Config, I > do recall various warnings about tinkering with / feeding a bad modeline to > the wrong type of monitor.. could result in major damage, and so on. So I > guess this sort of thing went on for a very long time, then.. same basic > situation? Pretty much. It's worth noting that the danger pretty much disappeared with multisync monitors. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 9 14:33:32 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 12:33:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> <1E442843-3EA1-4B4B-B6C7-01349C615CE0@cs.ubc.ca> <545F99C0.3010405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141109123159.L91043@shell.lmi.net> and all that I was doing was seeing what EVRRY mode looks like From jrr at flippers.com Sun Nov 9 01:41:40 2014 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 23:41:40 -0800 Subject: Recovery CDs for Thinkpad 2647-44U (T-20)? Message-ID: <545F1AB4.9010001@flippers.com> Anyone have one of these sets (2 or 4 CDs) for the old IBM Thinkpad? I have a nice old timer here that I want to use for some older applications (ancient EPROM programmer) and this would work nicely if I could find the drivers. At the moment I can only find invalid torrents or what certainly looks like malware 'drivers' to download. IBM off-loaded everything to Lenovo and there is nothing on their site that I could find for these legacy machines. Archive.org has the support site archived, but not the download files... eg: https://web.archive.org/web/20060713020434/http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-4JSQHB Seems a shame to recycle a perfectly good computer just because one can't get it running on all cylinders! Thanks! John :-#)# From anders at abc80.net Sun Nov 9 05:03:51 2014 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 12:03:51 +0100 Subject: VAX 11/730 Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <338bf80e95228c38ae2c39b9dbea2346.squirrel@www.sadata.se> Hi, I picked up a VAX 11/730 earlier this week. Got some documentation along with it that I couldn't find on the net. Decided to share. First out R80 Disk drive manual. Hope it will find it's way to bitsavers. http://www.abc80.net/docs/DEC/vax/11-730/EK-00R80-UG-001-R80_Disk_Drive_Users_Guide.pdf Enjoy! /Anders From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Nov 9 11:53:09 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 09:53:09 -0800 Subject: VAX 11/730 Documentation In-Reply-To: <338bf80e95228c38ae2c39b9dbea2346.squirrel@www.sadata.se> References: <338bf80e95228c38ae2c39b9dbea2346.squirrel@www.sadata.se> Message-ID: <6E302CAD-19DB-49F9-8D9F-C6BEC2949866@nf6x.net> > On Nov 9, 2014, at 03:03 , Anders Sandahl wrote: > > I picked up a VAX 11/730 earlier this week. Got some documentation along > with it that I couldn't find on the net. Decided to share. Congratulations on your new 11/730, from another 11/730 owner! Mine also came with some documentation that's not scanned in the wild yet. I've been meaning to scan it, but that's on my very long list of things that I may or may not ever get around to doing. I haven't booted my machine up yet, because it hasn't been able to read any of its console tapes. My next step will be to plug in tu58em in place of the internal tape drive to see if I can boot it from a boot tape image I found online. I hope that I'll be able to recover the contents of some of my physical boot tapes somehow, because they cover different versions than what I've seen online. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From shadoooo at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 13:16:34 2014 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2014 20:16:34 +0100 Subject: VAX 11/730 Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <545FBD92.20907@gmail.com> Hello, I have a 730 too, with a bunch of documentation. Unfortunately, the system is stored in a friend's garage by now, and the documentation is all there too. But I could go there to seek if there's something interesting that is not on bitsavers yet. Anyway, thanks for your contribution! Andrea From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 15:30:50 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 21:30:50 -0000 Subject: Recovery CDs for Thinkpad 2647-44U (T-20)? In-Reply-To: <545F1AB4.9010001@flippers.com> References: <545F1AB4.9010001@flippers.com> Message-ID: <023401cffc64$6f4d9bc0$4de8d340$@gmail.com> Some of the utilities are on the Lenovo site, for example the DOS PC Card drivers turned up in a search for T20 http://support.lenovo.com/en/downloads/ds013565 also a utilities cross reference is here:- http://support.lenovo.com/en/documents/ht036092 but sadly there seems to be no sign of the VGA driver which I guess might be a show stopper... ... there are hints in google and in search of the Lenovo site it was there "recently" but sadly all the links seem broken. Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John > Robertson > Sent: 09 November 2014 07:42 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Recovery CDs for Thinkpad 2647-44U (T-20)? > > Anyone have one of these sets (2 or 4 CDs) for the old IBM Thinkpad? I have > a nice old timer here that I want to use for some older applications (ancient > EPROM programmer) and this would work nicely if I could find the drivers. > > At the moment I can only find invalid torrents or what certainly looks like > malware 'drivers' to download. > > IBM off-loaded everything to Lenovo and there is nothing on their site that I > could find for these legacy machines. Archive.org has the support site > archived, but not the download files... > > eg: > > https://web.archive.org/web/20060713020434/http://www- > 307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-4JSQHB > > Seems a shame to recycle a perfectly good computer just because one can't > get it running on all cylinders! > > Thanks! > > John :-#)# From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 16:03:44 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2014 16:03:44 -0600 Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info In-Reply-To: References: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> , <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <545FE4C0.30601@gmail.com> On 11/07/2014 11:42 PM, tony duell wrote: > With no UART, I guess it bit-bangs the serial protocol (I am surprised there's no > CDP1854 on the board). Pity. If there was a UART you could stick a 'scope on the > baud clock input and find out what bit rate to use. Well, going by the doc which Francis posted, it expects a carriage-return character to be sent by the controlling device at power-up, and it automagically adjusts the baud rate. I'm a little skeptical about that (because hard configuration of line parameters is typical with serial hardware), but I don't know enough about RS232 comms to say how plausible/reliable it is. What the docs don't state is the other expected line parameters - data bits, parity, stop bits, so I'm completely in the dark there. Anyway, so far it doesn't work (and of course I'm not surprised), but I've not done any diagnosis yet beyond simply reseating chips and checking the PSU rail. The board does support a parallel input mode via keypad too, so maybe I'll try that just to rule out the RS232 side of things. cheers Jules From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Nov 9 16:38:16 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 17:38:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info In-Reply-To: <545FE4C0.30601@gmail.com> References: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> , <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> <545FE4C0.30601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201411092238.RAA13665@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> With no UART, I guess it bit-bangs the serial protocol (I am >> surprised there's no CDP1854 on the board). [...] > Well, going by the doc which Francis posted, it expects a > carriage-return character to be sent by the controlling device at > power-up, and it automagically adjusts the baud rate. I'm a little > skeptical about that (because hard configuration of line parameters > is typical with serial hardware), but I don't know enough about RS232 > comms to say how plausible/reliable it is. If it's bit-banged, I find it plausible; taking a highly oversampled CR character and deducing the effective divisor from it is relatively easy. > What the docs don't state is the other expected line parameters - > data bits, parity, stop bits, so I'm completely in the dark there. Back in the '80s, I played with a Votrax-branded speech synth. Based on rather fuzzy memory from that, you want 8N1 or 701 - IIRC the protocol stuck to ASCII, in which case 8N and 70 are equivalent. Unfortunately all I can recall of the protocol - even assuming it's the same on the device I used as on the device at hand here - is that it used short sequences (two? three? octets) to specify various phonemes, with conversion, if any, from spelling to phonemes happening on the host. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Sun Nov 9 17:36:49 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 17:36:49 -0600 Subject: AS/400 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141109233649.GA9244@RawFedDogs.net> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 07:25:35PM -0400, Jonathan Katz wrote: > Are there any AS/400 emulators out there? > > Alternately, any baby AS/400 systems in the Columbus, OH area? I'm asking > for a friend. On a similar note, are there any AS/400 systems in the Central Texas area in need of a good home? I'm asking for myself. :-) I work as an operator in a shop with both an IBM mainframe running z/OS and an AS/400. Well, our most recent box is an iSeries, but we still call it an AS/400. I deal primarily with the mainframe. We're about to start transitioning from our in house written mainframe system to an AS/400 based solution. Sadly our mainframe is on its way out, unless the project to move entirely to the AS/400 platform fails. Looking for resources for learning more about AS/400s naturally the thought of collecting an older one came to mind. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Nov 9 16:14:16 2014 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 14:14:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vince Briel computers In-Reply-To: <545C79AC.8070501@yahoo.com.au> References: <545C3BC2.2070208@the-planet.org> <545C79AC.8070501@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Nov 2014, Tom Sparks wrote: > On 07/11/14 13:25, Gary Kaufman wrote: >> Has anyone been able to reach Vince Briel recently? I hope he's ok, as >> I've enjoyed his pocket-term and micro-kim kits. >> >> I ordered a Superboard III kit on August 25th. I was hoping to use it >> as a gift in early October! >> >> On 9/18 I heard back with >> "Hey Gary,I have a OSI 600 and I can say the Superboard III is really >> close to the exact same thing (little better video quality). I'll look >> for your order and see if I can't get it out shortly" >> >> And on October 13th >> "Hi Gary. Sorry ive been moving this week. Should be done in a day or >> two. My main pc went down but i should have it fixed this week. Still >> only have phone for internet." >> >> Nothing since, and no additional information on his forum or website. >> > I hope it's not too serious because I am looking at get some more > computers from him He seems to come and go. I ordered a mini-altair from him in September of 2013 and got it around a year later. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From janprunk at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 17:10:48 2014 From: janprunk at gmail.com (Jan Prunk) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 00:10:48 +0100 Subject: Vintage UNIX computers/servers for SALE-auction Message-ID: Hello ! Vintage workstations and servers for sale/auction in Slovenia, Europe. Below is the list of hardware, if you are interested, please read the details regarding the sale terms at the end of the list. For anything else you wish to know, please direct all questions regarding equipment to E-mail janprunk-at-gmail.com and not to the mailing list. 3 x HP 712 1 x Switch Hubstack JEHI-24 1 x Power Macintosh 7500/100 2 x SUN Sparcstation 4 1 x HP 9000 PC-308 (XT) 1 x Digital DEC 3000 1 x HP Terminal (monitor) 700/96 1 x Digital DEC 2000 1 x HP 9000 E35 STATUS OF THE EQUIPMENT : Equipment is being sold AS IS, meaning there is no facility to test it ! Computers should be in a working condition, some were even used by me personally, but consider them being sold as a DEFECT, due to its age, limited skills and lack of my time to exclude warranty terms. I am able and willing to provide the photos of the exterior, but please don't ask me to open up the machines to photograph the interior or components, boot up the OS, test the condition etc. I can provide exact model and serial number if that will be helpfull to you. Some computers come with the original hard drive inside and some don't. AUCTION: You are welcome to bid prices for this equipment. To limit the sale to serious bidders, I will only consider bids above 100 EUR per computer, if there are more bids for the same computer I will consider the highest offer. I haven't placed the equipment on EBAY at this time, because that would make me obligated to ship the computers even with a 1 EUR bidding win price and that would just mean too much work and no pay for me. PAYMENT: I am able to accept bank wire as a preferred method, cash or cheque, cryptocurrencies, such as Bitcoin but I am unhappy to accept Paypal due to its refundment policy which always sticks with the buyer. SHIPPING: I would prefer if you can do local pickup, however that might not be possible for people who don't live near Slovenia. I am willing to ship the equipment by mail, but be advised that Slovenia foreign parcel shipping is very expenssive so it wouldn't cost less than 80 EUR to ship the computer across Europe, due to its weight and dimensions. Shipping outside Europe would probably even double the amount, but if you are a serious collector I will also consider that option if you are willing to pay for shipping. I might have the accessories for computers - keyboards, cabling ... but consider the workstations being sold without that, as shipping the workstation + keyboard can be a problem, due to different dimensions and it would need to be packaged into two separate packages, therefore doubling the shipping costs aswell. ADDITIONALS: Keep in mind that bids below 100 EUR would just mean too much work for me to organise the shipment so I would rather not deal with it. I hope that the computers can find a new home with some other collector. For anything else you wish to know, please direct all questions regarding equipment to E-mail janprunk-at-gmail.com and not to the mailing list. I wish you all a happy bidding ! Kind regards, Jan Prunk From janprunk at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 17:10:48 2014 From: janprunk at gmail.com (Jan Prunk) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 00:10:48 +0100 Subject: Vintage UNIX computers/servers for SALE-auction Message-ID: Hello ! Vintage workstations and servers for sale/auction in Slovenia, Europe. Below is the list of hardware, if you are interested, please read the details regarding the sale terms at the end of the list. For anything else you wish to know, please direct all questions regarding equipment to E-mail janprunk-at-gmail.com and not to the mailing list. 3 x HP 712 1 x Switch Hubstack JEHI-24 1 x Power Macintosh 7500/100 2 x SUN Sparcstation 4 1 x HP 9000 PC-308 (XT) 1 x Digital DEC 3000 1 x HP Terminal (monitor) 700/96 1 x Digital DEC 2000 1 x HP 9000 E35 STATUS OF THE EQUIPMENT : Equipment is being sold AS IS, meaning there is no facility to test it ! Computers should be in a working condition, some were even used by me personally, but consider them being sold as a DEFECT, due to its age, limited skills and lack of my time to exclude warranty terms. I am able and willing to provide the photos of the exterior, but please don't ask me to open up the machines to photograph the interior or components, boot up the OS, test the condition etc. I can provide exact model and serial number if that will be helpfull to you. Some computers come with the original hard drive inside and some don't. AUCTION: You are welcome to bid prices for this equipment. To limit the sale to serious bidders, I will only consider bids above 100 EUR per computer, if there are more bids for the same computer I will consider the highest offer. I haven't placed the equipment on EBAY at this time, because that would make me obligated to ship the computers even with a 1 EUR bidding win price and that would just mean too much work and no pay for me. PAYMENT: I am able to accept bank wire as a preferred method, cash or cheque, cryptocurrencies, such as Bitcoin but I am unhappy to accept Paypal due to its refundment policy which always sticks with the buyer. SHIPPING: I would prefer if you can do local pickup, however that might not be possible for people who don't live near Slovenia. I am willing to ship the equipment by mail, but be advised that Slovenia foreign parcel shipping is very expenssive so it wouldn't cost less than 80 EUR to ship the computer across Europe, due to its weight and dimensions. Shipping outside Europe would probably even double the amount, but if you are a serious collector I will also consider that option if you are willing to pay for shipping. I might have the accessories for computers - keyboards, cabling ... but consider the workstations being sold without that, as shipping the workstation + keyboard can be a problem, due to different dimensions and it would need to be packaged into two separate packages, therefore doubling the shipping costs aswell. ADDITIONALS: Keep in mind that bids below 100 EUR would just mean too much work for me to organise the shipment so I would rather not deal with it. I hope that the computers can find a new home with some other collector. For anything else you wish to know, please direct all questions regarding equipment to E-mail janprunk-at-gmail.com and not to the mailing list. I wish you all a happy bidding ! Kind regards, Jan Prunk From mazzinia at tin.it Sun Nov 9 17:43:25 2014 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 00:43:25 +0100 Subject: R: Recovery CDs for Thinkpad 2647-44U (T-20)? In-Reply-To: <545F1AB4.9010001@flippers.com> References: <545F1AB4.9010001@flippers.com> Message-ID: <008701cffc76$f4fb15b0$def14110$@tin.it> Try asking on Forum.thinkpads.com Surely someone will be able to help or to suggest if the drivers of another model from that time are compatible. -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di John Robertson Inviato: domenica 9 novembre 2014 08:42 A: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts Only Oggetto: Recovery CDs for Thinkpad 2647-44U (T-20)? Anyone have one of these sets (2 or 4 CDs) for the old IBM Thinkpad? I have a nice old timer here that I want to use for some older applications (ancient EPROM programmer) and this would work nicely if I could find the drivers. At the moment I can only find invalid torrents or what certainly looks like malware 'drivers' to download. IBM off-loaded everything to Lenovo and there is nothing on their site that I could find for these legacy machines. Archive.org has the support site archived, but not the download files... eg: https://web.archive.org/web/20060713020434/http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support /site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-4JSQHB Seems a shame to recycle a perfectly good computer just because one can't get it running on all cylinders! Thanks! John :-#)# From shadoooo at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 18:04:48 2014 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 01:04:48 +0100 Subject: VAX 11/730 Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54600120.9080902@gmail.com> Hello, > I haven't booted my machine up yet, because it hasn't been able to read any of its console tapes. I have too a lot of tapes, complete and uncomplete sets of software installation tapes, plus two/three console versions and some with unknown content. The problem is, many of them suffer from sticky rubber on tape (if you try to move the rubber leader, it will create blank spots on tape, removing the magnetic oxide substrate). Other have a broken band. I read somewhere around, it is possible to detach the rubber band using hot air, and replace it with some sort of PVC strings. I would need a lot of time to try something... but the bigger problem is not this... I don't have a TU58 to be used on the desk to try to read the tapes, and even better to assembl?e a new firmware allowing to format blank tapes. I'm trying to buy some piece of hardware since a lot of time... no luck so far. If anybody has a TU58, or parts, please let me know. Andrea From bqt at softjar.se Sun Nov 9 19:29:58 2014 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 02:29:58 +0100 Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info In-Reply-To: <201411092238.RAA13665@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> , <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> <545FE4C0.30601@gmail.com> <201411092238.RAA13665@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: Mouse skrev: (9 november 2014 23:38:16 CET) >>> With no UART, I guess it bit-bangs the serial protocol (I am >>> surprised there's no CDP1854 on the board). [...] > >> Well, going by the doc which Francis posted, it expects a >> carriage-return character to be sent by the controlling device at >> power-up, and it automagically adjusts the baud rate. I'm a little >> skeptical about that (because hard configuration of line parameters >> is typical with serial hardware), but I don't know enough about RS232 >> comms to say how plausible/reliable it is. > >If it's bit-banged, I find it plausible; taking a highly oversampled CR >character and deducing the effective divisor from it is relatively >easy. Meh. Auto baud detection has been around a long time. Easy to with uarts as well. I think all DEC OSes can do it. You basically just set a fairly high speed on the port and read. You get a character and have a lookup table for the different speeds. That table is populated by sending in CR at the different speeds and pick the results. > >> What the docs don't state is the other expected line parameters - >> data bits, parity, stop bits, so I'm completely in the dark there. > >Back in the '80s, I played with a Votrax-branded speech synth. Based >on rather fuzzy memory from that, you want 8N1 or 701 - IIRC the >protocol stuck to ASCII, in which case 8N and 70 are equivalent. 8N1 would actually be the same as 7S1, but depending on the software many variants could work. 7O will set the high bit for some characters. Update (computer club) used to have a Votrax, which I had hooked up to a pdp-11. We should still have it, as well as the manual somwhere. Johnny -- Skickat fr?n min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Urs?kta min f?ordighet. From rich.bramante at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 19:55:15 2014 From: rich.bramante at gmail.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 20:55:15 -0500 Subject: list back up In-Reply-To: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> References: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 5:39 PM, Jay West wrote: 10> Many people have asked me over the past year or so to host their > classiccmp-related website, and I pushed them off due to the lack of disk > space. That is no longer an issue so if you're one of the people wanting > that (and still do), now is the time to get back in touch with me. As > always, we'll host any classiccmp-related website free of charge. Hello Jay, I had contacted a ways back about this very subject. I previously maintained www.metabarn.com which contained a lot of information pertaining to the Visual Technology Visual 1050 CP/M computer. I no longer own the domain, but I do have the original v1050 section and would like to make this available to the community in some capacity if classiccmp is willing to host it. I have a 140MB tar.gz of the site I can make available (about 160MB extracted) I can make available if you'd like to take a look. Thanks. Rich Bramante From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 02:00:34 2014 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 02:00:34 -0600 Subject: Sun Cardcage Manual Message-ID: I've been back at scanning the big pile of Sun binders lately and I'm down to the last box (that I can still find.) I've uploaded a few over the last 24 hrs but one may be worth calling attention to for early Sun fans, doc #813-2004-14, "Cardcage Slot Assignments and Backplane Configuration Procedures." I've seen a number of FAQ and help pages with charts pulled from various versions of this doc but not the whole thing. It covers various models of the Sun-2 through Sun-4 range. You can find it and the others here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/Sun -j From simski at dds.nl Mon Nov 10 01:44:29 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 08:44:29 +0100 Subject: TU58 was: VAX 11/730 Documentation In-Reply-To: <54600120.9080902@gmail.com> References: <54600120.9080902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54606CDD.7010204@dds.nl> to change the subject yet again, be careful with that tu58 eugene! the rubber rollers seem to have desintegrated into som gum or glue. stick in a known good tape and it will be ruined forever. I have been thinking about making an Arduino sketch to generate the blocks for a new tape, but a olivetti programma 101 with quirks and a pdp8 with faulty core are standing in queu before that... On 10-11-14 01:04, shadoooo wrote: > Hello, > > > I haven't booted my machine up yet, because it hasn't been able to > read any of its console tapes. > > I have too a lot of tapes, complete and uncomplete sets of software > installation tapes, > plus two/three console versions and some with unknown content. > The problem is, many of them suffer from sticky rubber on tape (if you > try to move the rubber leader, > it will create blank spots on tape, removing the magnetic oxide substrate). > Other have a broken band. I read somewhere around, it is possible to > detach the rubber band using hot air, > and replace it with some sort of PVC strings. I would need a lot of time > to try something... but the bigger problem is not this... > I don't have a TU58 to be used on the desk to try to read the tapes, and > even better to assembl?e a new firmware allowing to format > blank tapes. > I'm trying to buy some piece of hardware since a lot of time... no luck > so far. > > If anybody has a TU58, or parts, please let me know. > > Andrea > > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From anders at abc80.net Mon Nov 10 03:07:52 2014 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 10:07:52 +0100 Subject: VAX 11/730 Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548f3de8787edba03031c065b28663fb.squirrel@www.sadata.se> > Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 01:04:48 +0100 > From: shadoooo > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VAX 11/730 Documentation > Message-ID: <54600120.9080902 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hello, > > > I haven't booted my machine up yet, because it hasn't been able to > read any of its console tapes. > > I have too a lot of tapes, complete and uncomplete sets of software > installation tapes, > plus two/three console versions and some with unknown content. > The problem is, many of them suffer from sticky rubber on tape (if you > try to move the rubber leader, > it will create blank spots on tape, removing the magnetic oxide > substrate). > Other have a broken band. I read somewhere around, it is possible to > detach the rubber band using hot air, > and replace it with some sort of PVC strings. I would need a lot of time > to try something... but the bigger problem is not this... > I don't have a TU58 to be used on the desk to try to read the tapes, and > even better to assembl?e a new firmware allowing to format > blank tapes. > I'm trying to buy some piece of hardware since a lot of time... no luck > so far. > > If anybody has a TU58, or parts, please let me know. > > Andrea I got the machine inside yesterday and started to look it through. Have also problem with the TU58's. The rubber wheels are just goo. I have a lot of tapes, ~30 of them. Don't know what they contain yet. /Anders From laurens at daemon.be Mon Nov 10 06:08:58 2014 From: laurens at daemon.be (Laurens Vets) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 13:08:58 +0100 Subject: Paging Rob Blessin from Black Hole, Inc Message-ID: <01cd25c6c148b08b48269f65629241ff@daemon.be> Does anyone know whether he's still reachable somehow? He doesn't seem to be answering emails? From charles at uniwho.com Mon Nov 10 06:18:58 2014 From: charles at uniwho.com (Charles Phillips) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 07:18:58 -0500 Subject: Paging Rob Blessin from Black Hole, Inc In-Reply-To: <01cd25c6c148b08b48269f65629241ff@daemon.be> References: <01cd25c6c148b08b48269f65629241ff@daemon.be> Message-ID: <98595D49-1538-4E10-9B64-00917A4ACF36@uniwho.com> I?m his re-cap guy Charles - MacCaps.com I know he?s been busy trying to make money, keeping the bills paid over there. What was your question? On Nov 10, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Laurens Vets wrote: > Does anyone know whether he's still reachable somehow? He doesn't seem to be answering emails? From asc135 at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 06:33:37 2014 From: asc135 at gmail.com (Amardeep S Chana) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 07:33:37 -0500 Subject: Vince Briel computers Message-ID: David Griffith wrote: > He seems to come and go. I ordered a mini-altair from him in September of 2013 and got it around a year later. I've run into this too many times over the years with someone who is running a side business. Demand greatly outstrips their work process and the owner is just inclined to keep stringing along the customers with excuses, if any communications at all. Years ago I ordered a lot of equipment from "The TRS-80 Recycler." It took over a year and dozens of really lame excuses before I received it all. Then I saw similar things happen to people who prepaid for those next generation IMSAIs, but they never got theirs. Same thing with a supplier or two in my other hobby, reel-to-reel tape recorders. If I was in that situation I'd probably just stop accepting new orders (i.e. cash) but accept backorders. Tell the buyer honestly how long it might take and charge the money only the day it ships. But often these guys *need* the money and keep accepting it, which is just a wrong thing to do. Amardeep From laurens at daemon.be Mon Nov 10 06:44:30 2014 From: laurens at daemon.be (Laurens Vets) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 13:44:30 +0100 Subject: Paging Rob Blessin from Black Hole, Inc In-Reply-To: <98595D49-1538-4E10-9B64-00917A4ACF36@uniwho.com> References: <01cd25c6c148b08b48269f65629241ff@daemon.be> <98595D49-1538-4E10-9B64-00917A4ACF36@uniwho.com> Message-ID: <7084b5940ddba1859b6c5af3457857c4@daemon.be> On 2014-11-10 13:18, Charles Phillips wrote: > I?m his re-cap guy > Charles - MacCaps.com > > I know he?s been busy trying to make money, keeping the bills paid > over there. > > What was your question? > > > On Nov 10, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Laurens Vets wrote: > >> Does anyone know whether he's still reachable somehow? He doesn't >> seem to be answering emails? I received a mail from him asking t o mirror the NeXT System Administration manual I'm hosting (http://www.cilinder.be/docs/next/NeXTStep/3.3/), but I never got an answer to my reply... From simski at dds.nl Mon Nov 10 09:39:07 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 16:39:07 +0100 Subject: DECwriter Correspondent (LA12) mechanical issue... In-Reply-To: <545D0791.3070804@gmail.com> References: <545D0791.3070804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5460DC1B.2020301@dds.nl> hey there, Today I got some time to take a look at our correspondent and guess what, there should be a brass clip to hold the ball: https://hack42.nl/gallery/v/Museum/2014-11-10-693.jpg.html I could not take the clip off. wiggling it also moved the spring holding the print needle block. simon On 07-11-14 18:55, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Got myself a nice looking DECwriter Correspondent (AKA the LA12). It's > having a bit of trouble moving the carriage assembly and I can't find a > service manual for this thing. (It's similar in some respects to the > DECwriter IV, but the mechanical parts appear to be fairly different.) > > The carriage assembly (print head, ribbon) is carried from one end of > the platen to the other via a cable attached to a servo motor on one end > and a pulley on the other; in the middle of this cable is a small metal > ball -- this ball is (as far as I can tell) meant to sit in a small > "cup" on the underside of the carriage and when the cable moves, the > ball pulls the carriage along. I'm assuming this was done this way > since the Correspondent is meant to be portable, and allowing the > carriage to break free of the pulley mechanism would probably reduce > damage in the case of a sudden shock (like getting dropped.) > > So far so good -- unfortunately the vast majority of the time, the ball > leaves the carriage behind (especially on carriage return) and I can't > quite figure out what's out of tolerance -- the carriage appears to move > smoothly, nothing is bent out of shape or broken as far as I can tell, > and there's plenty of tension in the cable. There's also not much to > adjust here so I'm kind of puzzled. > > I've put up a few pictures (and a short video demonstrating the problem) > with the print head/ribbon removed here: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/la12 > > Anyone ever worked on one of these before? Any ideas? > > Thanks as always, > Josh > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon Nov 10 09:50:10 2014 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 16:50:10 +0100 Subject: list back up In-Reply-To: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> References: <006f01cff6ed$d9ff1a10$8dfd4e30$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20141110155009.GA8672@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sun, Nov 02, 2014 at 04:39:22PM -0600, Jay West wrote: > The classiccmp server and it's backups were on a temporary san that hit a > bug and rebooted itself. Needless to say, dropping iscsi to a hypervisor is > not a good thing. The classiccmp vm thus rebooted itself, ran fsck, and (as > best as I can tell) the only thing corrupted was the cctalk and cctech > config.pck files (which contain the list settings and membership). The only > backup had the same corruption on it, because it ran the backup before I > noticed the problem. Anyways. [...] [... 1 to 12 deleted ...] > > I'm sure there's more that I've forgotten. But.. Enjoy! Frankly, if it wasn't explicitly stated here, I don't think I would have even noticed that something blew up. I guess this is how a good job in a backstage looks like. Anyways... thanks a lot. :-) -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Nov 10 11:28:50 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 12:28:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info In-Reply-To: References: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> , <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> <545FE4C0.30601@gmail.com> <201411092238.RAA13665@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201411101728.MAA08092@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> [...CR for autobaud...] >> If it's bit-banged, I find it plausible; taking a highly oversampled >> CR character and deducing the effective divisor from it is >> relatively easy. > Meh. Auto baud detection has been around a long time. Easy to with > uarts as well. I think all DEC OSes can do it. You basically just > set a fairly high speed on the port and read. You get a character > and have a lookup table for the different speeds. As described, this can't work if the sender's speed is slower than 1/10 of the receiver's speed, because then the receiver's entire character time falls within the sender's start bit. (Of course, that's enough to span a factor of 8, which is enough to be somewhat useful; it allows autobauding from 9600 down as low as 1200, for example: 0x0d=N, 0xe6=N/2, 0x78 with a framing error = N/4, 0x80=N/8, 0x00 with a framing error = N/10 or slower.) Handling faster speeds is more difficult, and may vary based on details such as whether the sender's speed is slightly more or slightly less than (say) double the receiver's speed. But, if it's bit-banged, then simply greatly oversampling the autobaud input can allow autobauding even to unusual speeds like 4000 baud, provided they're within range. >> [...] ASCII, in which case 8N and 70 are equivalent. > 8N1 would actually be the same as 7S1, but depending on the software > many variants could work. 7O will set the high bit for some > characters. I said 701, not 7O1. I initially wrote 7Z1, but its converse is ambiguous (because "one" and "odd" both begin with o). I didn't think of M and S; I wish I had, because the set M S E O is less likely to display ambiguously than 0 1 E O. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 10 14:25:06 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 21:25:06 +0100 Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info In-Reply-To: <201411101728.MAA08092@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> , <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> <545FE4C0.30601@gmail.com> <201411092238.RAA13665@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201411101728.MAA08092@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <54611F22.4060004@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-10 18:28, Mouse wrote: >>>> [...CR for autobaud...] >>> If it's bit-banged, I find it plausible; taking a highly oversampled >>> CR character and deducing the effective divisor from it is >>> relatively easy. >> Meh. Auto baud detection has been around a long time. Easy to with >> uarts as well. I think all DEC OSes can do it. You basically just >> set a fairly high speed on the port and read. You get a character >> and have a lookup table for the different speeds. > > As described, this can't work if the sender's speed is slower than 1/10 > of the receiver's speed, because then the receiver's entire character > time falls within the sender's start bit. (Of course, that's enough to > span a factor of 8, which is enough to be somewhat useful; it allows > autobauding from 9600 down as low as 1200, for example: 0x0d=N, > 0xe6=N/2, 0x78 with a framing error = N/4, 0x80=N/8, 0x00 with a > framing error = N/10 or slower.) > > Handling faster speeds is more difficult, and may vary based on details > such as whether the sender's speed is slightly more or slightly less > than (say) double the receiver's speed. True. There are limits. DEC seems to have been fond of using 4800 for the initial sampling. That worked for anything between 600 and 9600 at least. Which I'm sure is all a Votrax could handle as well. (The DEC code does a second sampling at 300 bps if they didn't successfully detect things at 4800.) > But, if it's bit-banged, then simply greatly oversampling the autobaud > input can allow autobauding even to unusual speeds like 4000 baud, > provided they're within range. Yes, with high enough samplig, and long enough, you can always figure it out. Even for odd speeds and so on... :-) >>> [...] ASCII, in which case 8N and 70 are equivalent. >> 8N1 would actually be the same as 7S1, but depending on the software >> many variants could work. 7O will set the high bit for some >> characters. > > I said 701, not 7O1. I initially wrote 7Z1, but its converse is > ambiguous (because "one" and "odd" both begin with o). I didn't think > of M and S; I wish I had, because the set M S E O is less likely to > display ambiguously than 0 1 E O. Ok. Color me stupid. :-) I really didn't notice you typed a zero, and just read it as 'odd'. (I need to read text with a better font, that makes zero and o differ more...) Johnny From roeapeterson at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 14:51:01 2014 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 14:51:01 -0600 Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info In-Reply-To: <54611F22.4060004@update.uu.se> References: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> <545FE4C0.30601@gmail.com> <201411092238.RAA13665@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201411101728.MAA08092@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54611F22.4060004@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <202C5DA3-3364-47DA-89B1-8C7E878517B0@gmail.com> You know, this entire discussion requires a user to reliably hit the RETURN key. At least once, at the right time, and after connecting with a modem, or whatever. I have never had any confidence in a human _ever_following instructions. I worked for a few years with a woman who always used the line feed key instead of CR (or return, or enter, call it what you will, decimal 13). I found that cycling through a limited list of baudrates based on framing errors, waiting for the BREAK signal, was more reliable. > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 10 08:25:04 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 06:25:04 -0800 Subject: TU58 was: VAX 11/730 Documentation In-Reply-To: <54606CDD.7010204@dds.nl> References: <54600120.9080902@gmail.com> <54606CDD.7010204@dds.nl> Message-ID: <5460CAC0.60805@bitsavers.org> On 11/9/14 11:44 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: > I have been thinking about making an Arduino sketch to generate the blocks for a new tape Norprine tubing works great as a replacement http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=104207&catid=664 The tricky part is cutting it. Thanks to Brad Parker for telling me about it. From mazzinia at tin.it Mon Nov 10 08:50:26 2014 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 15:50:26 +0100 Subject: R: Recovery CDs for Thinkpad 2647-44U (T-20)? In-Reply-To: <545F1AB4.9010001@flippers.com> References: <545F1AB4.9010001@flippers.com> Message-ID: <009801cffcf5$ae3e76b0$0abb6410$@tin.it> Update : Forum.thinkpads.com hosts ALL the drivers, patches and docs for legacy Thinkpads ( you need to join the forum to get access to the new section ) -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di John Robertson Inviato: domenica 9 novembre 2014 08:42 A: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts Only Oggetto: Recovery CDs for Thinkpad 2647-44U (T-20)? Anyone have one of these sets (2 or 4 CDs) for the old IBM Thinkpad? I have a nice old timer here that I want to use for some older applications (ancient EPROM programmer) and this would work nicely if I could find the drivers. At the moment I can only find invalid torrents or what certainly looks like malware 'drivers' to download. IBM off-loaded everything to Lenovo and there is nothing on their site that I could find for these legacy machines. Archive.org has the support site archived, but not the download files... eg: https://web.archive.org/web/20060713020434/http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support /site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-4JSQHB Seems a shame to recycle a perfectly good computer just because one can't get it running on all cylinders! Thanks! John :-#)# From chrise at pobox.com Mon Nov 10 10:41:03 2014 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 10:41:03 -0600 Subject: TU58 In-Reply-To: <5460CAC0.60805@bitsavers.org> References: <54600120.9080902@gmail.com> <54606CDD.7010204@dds.nl> <5460CAC0.60805@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20141110164103.GL7672@n0jcf.net> On Monday (11/10/2014 at 06:25AM -0800), Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/9/14 11:44 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: > > >I have been thinking about making an Arduino sketch to generate the blocks for a new tape > > Norprine tubing works great as a replacement > http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=104207&catid=664 > > The tricky part is cutting it. > > Thanks to Brad Parker for telling me about it. What's the correct ID to choose? I assume you then slip it over the aluminum hub after cleaning all the old roller residue from it? Do you glue the new tubing to the hub? Maybe we could get someone to cut proper sized chunks of this tubing with a laser cutter of some sort so that we have accurate dimensions with a clean edge? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From shadoooo at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 14:24:00 2014 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 21:24:00 +0100 Subject: TU58 was: VAX 11/730 Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54611EE0.6050405@gmail.com> What about the PVC bands to replace the original in the cassette? Unfortunately any reference here in cctech older archives has been lost... Thanks Andrea From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 10 15:25:59 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 15:25:59 -0600 Subject: TU58 was: VAX 11/730 Documentation In-Reply-To: <54611EE0.6050405@gmail.com> References: <54611EE0.6050405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01bc01cffd2c$ecb99f50$c62cddf0$@classiccmp.org> No, the archives have not been lost. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of shadoooo Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 2:24 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: TU58 was: VAX 11/730 Documentation What about the PVC bands to replace the original in the cassette? Unfortunately any reference here in cctech older archives has been lost... Thanks Andrea From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 10 16:07:27 2014 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 14:07:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vince Briel computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2014, Amardeep S Chana wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > >> He seems to come and go. I ordered a mini-altair from him in September > of 2013 and got it around a year later. > > I've run into this too many times over the years with someone who is > running a side business. Demand greatly outstrips their work process and > the owner is just inclined to keep stringing along the customers with > excuses, if any communications at all. > > Years ago I ordered a lot of equipment from "The TRS-80 Recycler." It took > over a year and dozens of really lame excuses before I received it all. > Then I saw similar things happen to people who prepaid for those next > generation IMSAIs, but they never got theirs. Same thing with a supplier > or two in my other hobby, reel-to-reel tape recorders. > > If I was in that situation I'd probably just stop accepting new orders > (i.e. cash) but accept backorders. Tell the buyer honestly how long it > might take and charge the money only the day it ships. But often these > guys *need* the money and keep accepting it, which is just a wrong thing to > do. I understand how one can get into such a situation. Still, I don't excuse it. I have an inventory of computer kits ready to go as soon as they're paid for. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 16:11:18 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 16:11:18 -0600 Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info In-Reply-To: <202C5DA3-3364-47DA-89B1-8C7E878517B0@gmail.com> References: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> <545FE4C0.30601@gmail.com> <201411092238.RAA13665@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201411101728.MAA08092@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54611F22.4060004@update.uu.se> <202C5DA3-3364-47DA-89B1-8C7E878517B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54613806.3040908@gmail.com> On 11/10/2014 02:51 PM, Roe Peterson wrote: > You know, this entire discussion requires a user to reliably hit the > RETURN key. At least once, at the right time, and after connecting with > a modem, or whatever. Except that the return key generates 0x0a [LF] (at least on the Linux system that I have the board hooked up to) and the board is expecting 0x0d [CR, ctrl-M] as the first character. I did end up writing a quick bit of C code to set up the serial line parameters and spit out exactly the data that I wanted, just so I could rule out other possibilities getting in the way, but still no luck. As I said in another message, I'm not particularly surprised, though - the board is over 30 years old, it was sitting in a junk pile, and some of the parts could easily be bad (2114 RAM chips aren't known for their reliability, for instance). cheers Jules From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 17:00:02 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 15:00:02 -0800 Subject: DECwriter Correspondent (LA12) mechanical issue... In-Reply-To: <5460DC1B.2020301@dds.nl> References: <545D0791.3070804@gmail.com> <5460DC1B.2020301@dds.nl> Message-ID: Thanks a ton for going through the trouble on this, it's much appreciated. I'll have to go through mine and see if that clip somehow ended up wedged somewhere inside. Otherwise, I guess it can't be too hard to build a replacement. Thanks again! Josh On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 7:39 AM, Simon Claessen wrote: > hey there, > > Today I got some time to take a look at our correspondent and guess what, > there should be a brass clip to hold the ball: > > https://hack42.nl/gallery/v/Museum/2014-11-10-693.jpg.html > > I could not take the clip off. wiggling it also moved the spring holding > the print needle block. > > simon > > > On 07-11-14 18:55, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Hi all -- >> >> Got myself a nice looking DECwriter Correspondent (AKA the LA12). It's >> having a bit of trouble moving the carriage assembly and I can't find a >> service manual for this thing. (It's similar in some respects to the >> DECwriter IV, but the mechanical parts appear to be fairly different.) >> >> The carriage assembly (print head, ribbon) is carried from one end of >> the platen to the other via a cable attached to a servo motor on one end >> and a pulley on the other; in the middle of this cable is a small metal >> ball -- this ball is (as far as I can tell) meant to sit in a small >> "cup" on the underside of the carriage and when the cable moves, the >> ball pulls the carriage along. I'm assuming this was done this way >> since the Correspondent is meant to be portable, and allowing the >> carriage to break free of the pulley mechanism would probably reduce >> damage in the case of a sudden shock (like getting dropped.) >> >> So far so good -- unfortunately the vast majority of the time, the ball >> leaves the carriage behind (especially on carriage return) and I can't >> quite figure out what's out of tolerance -- the carriage appears to move >> smoothly, nothing is bent out of shape or broken as far as I can tell, >> and there's plenty of tension in the cable. There's also not much to >> adjust here so I'm kind of puzzled. >> >> I've put up a few pictures (and a short video demonstrating the problem) >> with the print head/ribbon removed here: >> >> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/la12 >> >> Anyone ever worked on one of these before? Any ideas? >> >> Thanks as always, >> Josh >> >> > -- > Met vriendelijke Groet, > > Simon Claessen > drukknop.nl > From roeapeterson at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 16:41:39 2014 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 16:41:39 -0600 Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info In-Reply-To: <54613806.3040908@gmail.com> References: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> <545FE4C0.30601@gmail.com> <201411092238.RAA13665@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201411101728.MAA08092@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54611F22.4060004@update.uu.se> <202C5DA3-3364-47DA-89B1-8C7E878517B0@gmail.com> <54613806.3040908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <09FDB4B3-35F0-489F-A510-A55E886F13E6@gmail.com> > On Nov 10, 2014, at 4:11 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> On 11/10/2014 02:51 PM, Roe Peterson wrote: >> You know, this entire discussion requires a user to reliably hit the >> RETURN key. At least once, at the right time, and after connecting with >> a modem, or whatever. > > Except that the return key generates 0x0a [LF] (at least on the Linux system that I have the board hooked up to) and the board is expecting 0x0d [CR, ctrl-M] as the first character. No, the keyboard will always generate a CR (CTRL-M, 0x0d) when the return/enter/whatever key is pressed. Unix/Linux line discipline translates it into an LF (if, IIRC, ICRNL is set). The semantics for stty change from Unix to Unix, but a CR is always decimal 13, a line feed is always decimal 10. Check "man ascii". > > I did end up writing a quick bit of C code to set up the serial line parameters and spit out exactly the data that I wanted, just so I could rule out other possibilities getting in the way, but still no luck. As I said in another message, I'm not particularly surprised, though - the board is over 30 years old, it was sitting in a junk pile, and some of the parts could easily be bad (2114 RAM chips aren't known for their reliability, for instance). > > cheers > > Jules > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 19:03:35 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 19:03:35 -0600 Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info In-Reply-To: <09FDB4B3-35F0-489F-A510-A55E886F13E6@gmail.com> References: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> <545FE4C0.30601@gmail.com> <201411092238.RAA13665@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201411101728.MAA08092@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54611F22.4060004@update.uu.se> <202C5DA3-3364-47DA-89B1-8C7E878517B0@gmail.com> <54613806.3040908@gmail.com> <09FDB4B3-35F0-489F-A510-A55E886F13E6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54616067.10908@gmail.com> On 11/10/2014 04:41 PM, Roe Peterson wrote: > >> On Nov 10, 2014, at 4:11 PM, Jules Richardson >> wrote: >> >>> On 11/10/2014 02:51 PM, Roe Peterson wrote: You know, this entire >>> discussion requires a user to reliably hit the RETURN key. At least >>> once, at the right time, and after connecting with a modem, or >>> whatever. >> >> Except that the return key generates 0x0a [LF] (at least on the Linux >> system that I have the board hooked up to) and the board is expecting >> 0x0d [CR, ctrl-M] as the first character. > > No, the keyboard will always generate a CR (CTRL-M, 0x0d) when the > return/enter/whatever key is pressed. Unix/Linux line discipline > translates it into an LF (if, IIRC, ICRNL is set). Yes, sorry - I see what you mean (just looking at 'stty -a' output in a shell window; icrnl is indeed set). For the purposes of trying this board I'm unsetting ocrnl on the serial device, however (both in my C code and when I've been attempting to write directly from a shell), so it shouldn't be doing any translation when I send 0x0d down the line. In theory, anyway! (I'm not sure if I have any RS232-capable dot matrix printers, as otherwise that might be the easiest way to verify what's actually coming down the line) cheers Jules From anders at abc80.net Mon Nov 10 15:15:33 2014 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 22:15:33 +0100 Subject: TU58 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <036df813590da3ea29f51fe2f94219b0.squirrel@www.sadata.se> > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 10:41:03 -0600 > From: Chris Elmquist > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: TU58 > Message-ID: <20141110164103.GL7672 at n0jcf.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Monday (11/10/2014 at 06:25AM -0800), Al Kossow wrote: >> On 11/9/14 11:44 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: >> >> >I have been thinking about making an Arduino sketch to generate the >> blocks for a new tape >> >> Norprine tubing works great as a replacement >> http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=104207&catid=664 >> >> The tricky part is cutting it. >> >> Thanks to Brad Parker for telling me about it. > > What's the correct ID to choose? > > I assume you then slip it over the aluminum hub after cleaning all the > old roller residue from it? Do you glue the new tubing to the hub? > > Maybe we could get someone to cut proper sized chunks of this tubing > with a laser cutter of some sort so that we have accurate dimensions > with a clean edge? > > Chris > -- > Chris Elmquist > I'll guess: no 55134, 3/8" ID x 1/2" OD x 1/16" based on a tip in an another forum. I wander if it could be possible to cut in a lathe if its put on a temporary hub and cooled down with cooling spray. I'll try to find a seller of this tube on the European side of the ocean. The one that is refereed to above doesn't seams to ship over seas. /Anders From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 10 15:54:51 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 13:54:51 -0800 Subject: TU58 In-Reply-To: <036df813590da3ea29f51fe2f94219b0.squirrel@www.sadata.se> References: <036df813590da3ea29f51fe2f94219b0.squirrel@www.sadata.se> Message-ID: <5461342B.1050304@bitsavers.org> On 11/10/14 1:15 PM, Anders Sandahl wrote: > I wander if it could be possible to cut in a lathe if its put on a > temporary hub and cooled down with cooling spray. > A wooden dowel works with the tubing slipped over it, you just need to lubricate it with something like dish soap to keep a blade from binding as you cut through it. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 10 15:57:30 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 13:57:30 -0800 Subject: TU58 was: VAX 11/730 Documentation In-Reply-To: <54611EE0.6050405@gmail.com> References: <54611EE0.6050405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <546134CA.4050802@bitsavers.org> On 11/10/14 12:24 PM, shadoooo wrote: > What about the PVC bands to replace the original in the cassette? > > Unfortunately any reference here in cctech older archives has been lost... > > Thanks > Andrea > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Polyurethane-Plastibands-3-5-8-Pack-of-200-BASF-5500/390530851555 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 10 16:08:37 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 14:08:37 -0800 Subject: TU58 was: VAX 11/730 Documentation In-Reply-To: <54611EE0.6050405@gmail.com> References: <54611EE0.6050405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54613765.50003@sydex.com> On 11/10/2014 12:24 PM, shadoooo wrote: > What about the PVC bands to replace the original in the cassette? > > Unfortunately any reference here in cctech older archives has been lost... > > Thanks > Andrea > > These: http://www.b3.net/conserve/plastibands/plastibands-6.html *Not* the 4 1/4" or the 2" ones--too narrow and too small. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 10 16:11:39 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 14:11:39 -0800 Subject: TU58 was: VAX 11/730 Documentation In-Reply-To: <54613765.50003@sydex.com> References: <54611EE0.6050405@gmail.com> <54613765.50003@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5461381B.50600@sydex.com> On 11/10/2014 02:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > These: > > http://www.b3.net/conserve/plastibands/plastibands-6.html > > *Not* the 4 1/4" or the 2" ones--too narrow and too small. I'll add that those are for the DC300-sized carts, not the DC100 ones. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Nov 10 21:21:31 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 22:21:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Netronics Phoneme generator info In-Reply-To: <202C5DA3-3364-47DA-89B1-8C7E878517B0@gmail.com> References: <545D2DC2.40205@gmail.com> <545D36D4.8040600@gmail.com> <545FE4C0.30601@gmail.com> <201411092238.RAA13665@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201411101728.MAA08092@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54611F22.4060004@update.uu.se> <202C5DA3-3364-47DA-89B1-8C7E878517B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201411110321.WAA18515@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > You know, this entire discussion requires a user to reliably hit the RETURN $ Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that this statement was posted with paragraph-length lines - ie, without hitting RETURN? > I have never had any confidence in a human _ever_following instructions. I $ Yes, and a human who tries to type Dvorak on a QWERTY keyboard will lose too. There's only so much broken-user it's reasonable to try to accommodate. In the case of a speech synth that takes phoneme codes rather than natural-language text, I see nothing wrong with assuming it's going to be talking to software rather than a human, possibly excepting debugging (and debuggers can usually be trusted to be more capable of adhering to protocol than end users such as the woman you describe). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bensinc at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 21:36:23 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 21:36:23 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141107214837.9481F18C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141107214837.9481F18C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: This may be unrelated, but what is the best way to connect the wire-wrap jumpers? I've never actually wire wrapped anything, but is that what I should do? It seems like I'm always changing settings (particularly on my M8043), so I'm currently using jumper wires with plastic connectors, like you might use for prototyping. Those get a bit messy though! On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ben Sinclair > > > Then, in between trying a few things (but without touching the > > hardware), the machine seemed to get very flaky. > > ... > > I tried removing the RLV11 boards, returning the machine to it's > former > > state, but I have the same issue. > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com Mon Nov 10 23:57:21 2014 From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 16:57:21 +1100 Subject: Tektronix Microlab I? Message-ID: I found this item on eBay: a Tektronix Microlab I with 8086 personality module, but can't seem to find much about what capabilities it provided. It doesn't seem to be in the same league as the Fluke 9000 series (9010A etc) so what could it do? Was it simply a way of testing out different microprocessors (like a SBC with plugin CPUs)? http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/380885770121 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 11 06:11:44 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 07:11:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141111121144.F3EF818C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair > what is the best way to connect the wire-wrap jumpers? I've never > actually wire wrapped anything, but is that what I should do? Well, I use wire-wrap, but anything that makes a good connection and doesn't get in the way (of other cards, etc) is fine, really. Don't feel you have to use wire-wrap, or anything. If you want to wire-wrap, there are two ways to go. They used to make manual tools for wrapping the wire, but I've never used those; I learned with a gun. Those are available on eBay now for relatively cheap, since wire-wrap is now more or less obsolete (if you're slightly patient - I paid $25 for a kit containing two guns, a bunch of different tips for different gauge wire, several packages of pre-stripped wires, several of the strippers that cut the wire and strip the right amount, and some un-wrap tools - a great deal :-); that's the way I'd go. They are pretty easy to use; the only real trick is to learn how to apply just the right amount of up-down force while doing the wrap. Too much up, and you tend to pull the gun up as it wraps, and you don't get a nice tight wrap. Too much down, and you get an ugly ball at the bottom of the post as the wrap winds around itself. The trick is to try and hold the gun neutrally weighted, and as it wraps let it push _itself_ up the pin, producing a nice tight wrap. And of course you can do test wraps, and undo them if they come out looking bad. It doesn't take long to get reasonably good with it. Noel From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 08:31:29 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 08:31:29 -0600 Subject: ADDS 4000/260 keyboard connector Message-ID: <54621DC1.4020603@gmail.com> Longest of long shots, but does anyone happen to know the keyboard connector pinout on an ADDS 4000/260 terminal? I have such a terminal here, and it has a 6-pin RJxx-type socket, but the keyboard which came with it would appear to be for something else, and has a 4-pin RJxx plug (I'm not sure of the actual RJ designations, but they're physically different, albeit close - the keyboard one fits in the terminal's 6-way socket, but is too loose to make contact on its 4 pins) However, the manual for the terminal mentions supporting a PC keyboard, so it's possible that a standard PS/2 keyboard with the PS/2 connector lopped off and replaced with a suitable RJxx connector would work - i.e. the clocking method and scancodes are identical - if I knew the pinout (it's also possible that the same is true of the keyboard that came with it - the physical layout's identical to a PC, but with the addition of a 'select' key) cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 11 14:22:21 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:22:21 -0600 Subject: server bounce Message-ID: <000701cffded$332e1bd0$998a5370$@classiccmp.org> There's about an 80% chance that I will reboot the classiccmp server tonight to add another 300gb drive to it. Total expected downtime would be about 30 seconds. If I do wind up doing it tonight, I'd expect it to occur vaguely around 8:30pm-ish CST. J From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 14:46:24 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:46:24 -0600 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <546275A0.6020506@gmail.com> On 11/07/2014 07:00 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > So, my local bookstore guy has an IBM 5151 monitor for sale Well, I ended up picking it up yesterday - and it works fine :-) I'd forgotten about the long persistence phosphor in the CRT until Tony mentioned it - is it highly temperature-dependent? I was running the machine in a cold room (~57F/14C) and it was taking close on 20 seconds for an image to decay completely. I've no problem with that, because the brightness tails off quickly at first and so it's perfectly usable - I just don't remember it taking anything like that long on the 5151 I had over in England (where I don't think I would ever have run that one at so low an ambient temperature) cheers Jules From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 11 14:47:46 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:47:46 -0500 Subject: Whitesmiths C for VAX/VMS - Re: Whitesmith C install In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <546275F2.70207@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/11/14 9:36 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > I'm trying to install the Whitesmiths C compiler under RSX11M using > FLX (using the Whiteshmiths c compiler distribution tape V2.25 from > bitsavers). > > Alas, 'FLX' says the tape has zero files and directories, while a dump > under Linux shows definitely some contents. > > I tried both the simh & tpc format, no luck here yet. > > Am I missing something? > > The command I used is 'flx /rs=ms0:[*,*]/do' > > Thanks, > > Ed > > Speaking of Whitesmiths - I have some floppies for VAX. VAX/VMS Fortran v4.2 (1,2 of 2) " (help library) (1/1) WSL VAX/VMS C compiler v2.25 (1,2 of 2) Whitesmiths C POS (1/1) 2.2cpos11 disk 1 of 1 native C compiler by Whitesmiths, Ltd. If someone in North America (preferably) can safely image and publish these, I can ship them. --Toby From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Nov 11 16:42:09 2014 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:42:09 -0800 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: <546275A0.6020506@gmail.com> References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> <546275A0.6020506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <015e01cffe00$bbdbe800$3393b800$@net> > I'd forgotten about the long persistence phosphor in the CRT until Tony > mentioned it - is it highly temperature-dependent It does take a very long time although 20 seconds seems a bit extreme. The first time I turned one on after not having used one for over a decade I was surprised as well. -Ali From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 17:03:39 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 17:03:39 -0600 Subject: IBM 5151 (MDA display) - common faults / gotchas? In-Reply-To: <015e01cffe00$bbdbe800$3393b800$@net> References: <545D6B2E.1010208@gmail.com> <546275A0.6020506@gmail.com> <015e01cffe00$bbdbe800$3393b800$@net> Message-ID: Persistence is directly related to beam intensity.. does it still linger so long when its dimmed down? Otherwise, I don't see any way for the phosphor chemistry to change much over time, being hermetically sealed up in there. If anything, I'd expect persistence to +diminish+ with age, as the materials deplete (if such action occurs). But like most chemical / physical processes, temperature may well have a notable effect. Longer persistence when cold would make sense, in that instance. On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 4:42 PM, Ali wrote: > > I'd forgotten about the long persistence phosphor in the CRT until Tony > > mentioned it - is it highly temperature-dependent > > It does take a very long time although 20 seconds seems a bit extreme. The > first time I turned one on after not having used one for over a decade I > was > surprised as well. > > -Ali > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 11 17:21:39 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:21:39 -0800 Subject: Full-size 600 ohm telo transformers Message-ID: <54629A03.5000201@sydex.com> I've got a bunch (maybe half a dozen) 600 ohm - to -600 ohm telco line transformers. Nice units, maybe 5 inches tall by 2.5 inches wide, and potted. Use 4 8/32 screws for mounting. Is there any use for this stuff? Does anyone want them? --Chuck From jcw1231 at pacbell.net Tue Nov 11 17:30:30 2014 From: jcw1231 at pacbell.net (JC White) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:30:30 -0800 Subject: Full-size 600 ohm telo transformers In-Reply-To: <54629A03.5000201@sydex.com> References: <54629A03.5000201@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1415748630.7650.YahooMailNeo@web181604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Perhaps useful to amateur radio operators like myself... ________________________________ From: Chuck Guzis To: General at classiccmp.org Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 3:21 PM Subject: Full-size 600 ohm telo transformers I've got a bunch (maybe half a dozen) 600 ohm - to -600 ohm telco line transformers. Nice units, maybe 5 inches tall by 2.5 inches wide, and potted. Use 4 8/32 screws for mounting. Is there any use for this stuff? Does anyone want them? --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 18:23:26 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 17:23:26 -0700 Subject: Full-size 600 ohm telo transformers In-Reply-To: <54629A03.5000201@sydex.com> References: <54629A03.5000201@sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a bunch (maybe half a dozen) 600 ohm - to -600 ohm telco line > transformers. Nice units, maybe 5 inches tall by 2.5 inches wide, and > potted. Use 4 8/32 screws for mounting. > > Is there any use for this stuff? Does anyone want them? JC White wrote: > Perhaps useful to amateur radio operators like myself... Speaking of which, a friend has a bunch of Tellabs 4201 2-wire to 4-wire hybrids ("Terminating Sets") that he'd like to sell. Maybe useful to hams? They are switchable for 600 or 900 ohms on the 2-wire side, and fixed at 600 ohms on the 4-wire side. each module has two potted transformers, four test jacks, and an edge connector to plug into a backplane. Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/sets/72157649241740522/ A scan of the tech manual is at: http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/doc_details/3702-tellabs-4201-4203-terminating-sets From jws at jwsss.com Tue Nov 11 19:33:49 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 17:33:49 -0800 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 Message-ID: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 core board. KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 board is 6 across in size. From what I could find out K&T used PDP8 for NC controlled machines at some time. There is also this sort of board. The silkscreen shows a Microprocessor section outlined with a 40 pin ceramic gold chip. I am going to query the vendor to get a picture where you can read what is on the can, or get the text on the can. Maybe the thing is a Harris part, don't know. Since the listing is for Giddings and Lewis, which is either a subsidiary or competitor of K&T it may be another completely different system. It looks like K&T, G&L and Cincinnati Millacron had a number of legal runnins as there were several lawsuits in the google hits when looking these boards up. CM used an OEM Microdata 1600, and later 3 generations of their own 1600 derived designs before moving on to other newer microprocessor scale parts. The CM 800, and 900 and one later are all 1600s, or near relatives os such. The 900 uses 8K, 16K microdata manufactured core boards, and also the Ampex / CDC 32k core board. I buy all those that show up cheap on the usual auction site. Here is the processor board: GIDDINGS-LEWIS-KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-871-20410-05-SYSTEM-BOARD http://www.ebay.com/itm/181564464339 Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 11 20:11:20 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 18:11:20 -0800 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5462C1C8.8020506@bitsavers.org> On 11/11/14 5:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > Here is the processor board: > > GIDDINGS-LEWIS-KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-871-20410-05-SYSTEM-BOARD > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/181564464339 > You can see the Moto batwing logo, probably a 6800 From steemer at dslextreme.com Tue Nov 11 20:40:50 2014 From: steemer at dslextreme.com (sandy hamlet) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 18:40:50 -0800 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Jim, The microprocessor board looks like it came out of a Gemini D17 CNC controller, circa mid 80's. That was their own design electronics If I remember correctly, the company was Cross-Trecker and then Kearny & Trecker and then ultimately bought out by Giddings and Lewis. G&L was running both the K&T electronics and their own 8000B control concurrently on different products and finally switched over to Fanuc controls I believe that the K&T product line was ultimately discontinued. G&L subsequently acquired FADAL machine tools, and ultimately closed out that operation. I also believe that G&L is now part of the MAG group, would have to look that up to verify. The first card with"flip chip" marked on it looks like a PDP8 or possibly a PDP 11 card used in a Sundstrand control through the '70 to early 80's. It's been 30+ years since I worked on those antiques, brings back a lot of memories. The boards may very well be spares that were surplused out recently by the company that I worked for since they (the company) closed several facilities and were located within a mile or two where the boards are located. . On 11/11/14, jwsmobile wrote: > I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 core board. > > KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 > > board is 6 across in size. > > From what I could find out K&T used PDP8 for NC controlled machines at > some time. > > There is also this sort of board. The silkscreen shows a Microprocessor > section outlined with a 40 pin ceramic gold chip. > > I am going to query the vendor to get a picture where you can read what > is on the can, or get the text on the can. Maybe the thing is a Harris > part, don't know. > > Since the listing is for Giddings and Lewis, which is either a > subsidiary or competitor of K&T it may be another completely different > system. It looks like K&T, G&L and Cincinnati Millacron had a number of > legal runnins as there were several lawsuits in the google hits when > looking these boards up. > > CM used an OEM Microdata 1600, and later 3 generations of their own 1600 > derived designs before moving on to other newer microprocessor scale > parts. The CM 800, and 900 and one later are all 1600s, or near > relatives os such. The 900 uses 8K, 16K microdata manufactured core > boards, and also the Ampex / CDC 32k core board. I buy all those that > show up cheap on the usual auction site. > > Here is the processor board: > > GIDDINGS-LEWIS-KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-871-20410-05-SYSTEM-BOARD > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/181564464339 > > Jim > > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 11 21:00:35 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 21:00:35 -0600 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> On 11/11/2014 07:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 > core board. > > KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 > Boy, that SURE looks like PDP-11 memory, not PDP-8. The cast metal stiffener I think came in at least very late in the game for the PDP-8. PDP-8s usually had the colored plastic pull handles. Jon From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Nov 11 21:18:03 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 04:18:03 +0100 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-12 04:00, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/11/2014 07:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >> I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 core board. >> >> KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 >> > Boy, that SURE looks like PDP-11 memory, not PDP-8. > The cast metal stiffener I think came in at least very late in the game > for the PDP-8. PDP-8s usually had the colored plastic pull handles. The fact that the board have four edge connectors and not six totally excludes PDP-11. As for hex size with metal handles, that was used on the 8/A. (Which indeed is late in the PDP-8 game, but then again, it wasn't until the 8/A that you saw hex boards either, so if this would be for a PDP-8, it would have to be an 8/A, since no other model fits the hex boards.) But this is not 8/A core memory either, since those actually have all six connectors on the board, even if only a few signals were used on connector 5, and no signals were used on 6. But since this isn't even DEC stuff, it could still possibly have been something for a PDP-8. PDP-11 is still out of the question because of the four connectors. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From useddec at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 22:01:55 2014 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 22:01:55 -0600 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> Message-ID: The first board is definitely a DEC core board. If it will help anyone I can pull a MM8-A and MM11-D and compare them to the pic to see which. I have hundreds of DEC compatible boards here including Warner Swaysea, White/ Sunstrand, K/T, G/L, etc. if anyone of someone interested in them. BTW, I have a few people sorting for me and they are making progress. On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 9:18 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-11-12 04:00, Jon Elson wrote: > >> On 11/11/2014 07:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >> >>> I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 core board. >>> >>> KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 >>> >>> Boy, that SURE looks like PDP-11 memory, not PDP-8. >> The cast metal stiffener I think came in at least very late in the game >> for the PDP-8. PDP-8s usually had the colored plastic pull handles. >> > > The fact that the board have four edge connectors and not six totally > excludes PDP-11. As for hex size with metal handles, that was used on the > 8/A. (Which indeed is late in the PDP-8 game, but then again, it wasn't > until the 8/A that you saw hex boards either, so if this would be for a > PDP-8, it would have to be an 8/A, since no other model fits the hex > boards.) > > But this is not 8/A core memory either, since those actually have all six > connectors on the board, even if only a few signals were used on connector > 5, and no signals were used on 6. > > But since this isn't even DEC stuff, it could still possibly have been > something for a PDP-8. PDP-11 is still out of the question because of the > four connectors. > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 23:10:31 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 23:10:31 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Altair / S-100 serial comms board w/ documentation Message-ID: Just taking a stab.. I've run out of options trying to locate docs for the lone S-100 serial board in my stash, so I think it's time to look for a new unit. I don't own a logic analyzer, nor have I sufficient experience to figure out how to put my current board to use in the absence of docs.. so it goes. Does anyone have an S-100 (for Altair, in specific) RS-232 / serial communications board with available documentation? Just looking for something that can be made to work with a common serial terminal (emulated) so I can play around with BASIC and so forth. Plan is to use a basic 486 / Pentium laptop running Linux + Minicom or similar to emulate a VT-whatever on the Altair's comms port. (As an aside.. a bit of a mea culpa - I +did+ once own a genuine ITT (I think it was ITT) tele-tank with a paper tape machine. Picked it up for $15 at a local electronics surplus - AxMan - back in the early 1980s. It didn't work right.. or at least I had no idea what to do with it. When powered-up, it would begin to print blank lines over & over, line after line.. just sat there, running away like crazy doing nothing. I had not the slightest idea how to deal with it, so I removed the works from the top of the base, and THREW IT OUT OF MY SECOND-FLOOR BEDROOM WINDOW. It was so heavy, I didn't want to have to carry it back down. The base served as an excellent printer stand for several years, and the not-so-obvious access panel did well to conceal various contraband during the same period.) From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 11 23:12:06 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 23:12:06 -0600 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5462EC26.90405@pico-systems.com> On 11/11/2014 09:18 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-11-12 04:00, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 11/11/2014 07:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>> I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 >>> core board. >>> >>> KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 >>> >> > > The fact that the board have four edge connectors and not > six totally excludes PDP-11. The first and last picture of the ebay listing above clearly has SIX edge connectors. And, in fact, a number of PDP-11 peripheral boards had only 4 connectors. CPU boards and memory did usually have 6. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 11 23:12:40 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 00:12:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 Message-ID: <20141112051240.E0A5118C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Anderson > The first board is definitely a DEC core board. If it will help anyone > I can pull a MM8-A and MM11-D and compare them to the pic to see which. That would be really useful. If I had to bet, I'd go with the 8: DEC SPC/MUD memory boards often have CA1 jumpered to CB1 (NPG), and I don't see that here. And the way CC1 is ganged to CF1 to CT1 is very odd - CC1 is Parity A in an SPC/MUD slot. (Yes, it could be for a specially wired system unit - but those don't usually use hex cards.) And then there are a number of different kinds of component (e.g. the transistors in the cans, TO-18 I think?) which seem to be in multiples of 12. Too bad there's no picture of the edge of the handles to give us an M-number! Noel From useddec at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 00:11:44 2014 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 00:11:44 -0600 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20141112051240.E0A5118C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141112051240.E0A5118C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: A clearer pic of the rear of the board would have been nice. I compared it to an MM8-AB and that appears to be what it is. On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 11:12 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Paul Anderson > > > The first board is definitely a DEC core board. If it will help > anyone > > I can pull a MM8-A and MM11-D and compare them to the pic to see > which. > > That would be really useful. > > If I had to bet, I'd go with the 8: DEC SPC/MUD memory boards often have > CA1 > jumpered to CB1 (NPG), and I don't see that here. And the way CC1 is ganged > to CF1 to CT1 is very odd - CC1 is Parity A in an SPC/MUD slot. (Yes, it > could be for a specially wired system unit - but those don't usually use > hex > cards.) And then there are a number of different kinds of component (e.g. > the > transistors in the cans, TO-18 I think?) which seem to be in multiples of > 12. > > Too bad there's no picture of the edge of the handles to give us an > M-number! > > Noel > From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Nov 12 00:30:17 2014 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:30:17 +0100 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <3fd6357c8ee9d23267033ba03ad92c29.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Actually, this particular board (item #181565552717) is from DEC and it looks very similar (lettering etc) to the G652/H222 combo card I still have. My set came from a PDP-11 I believe it was from an 11/34. Ed > On 2014-11-12 04:00, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 11/11/2014 07:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>> I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 core board. >>> >>> KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 >>> >> Boy, that SURE looks like PDP-11 memory, not PDP-8. >> The cast metal stiffener I think came in at least very late in the game >> for the PDP-8. PDP-8s usually had the colored plastic pull handles. > > The fact that the board have four edge connectors and not six totally > excludes PDP-11. As for hex size with metal handles, that was used on > the 8/A. (Which indeed is late in the PDP-8 game, but then again, it > wasn't until the 8/A that you saw hex boards either, so if this would be > for a PDP-8, it would have to be an 8/A, since no other model fits the > hex boards.) > > But this is not 8/A core memory either, since those actually have all > six connectors on the board, even if only a few signals were used on > connector 5, and no signals were used on 6. > > But since this isn't even DEC stuff, it could still possibly have been > something for a PDP-8. PDP-11 is still out of the question because of > the four connectors. > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From useddec at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 00:38:52 2014 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 00:38:52 -0600 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <3fd6357c8ee9d23267033ba03ad92c29.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> <3fd6357c8ee9d23267033ba03ad92c29.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: If it's 11/34 core, it should be a MM11-CP or DP On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:30 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > Actually, this particular board (item #181565552717) is from DEC and > it looks very similar (lettering etc) to the G652/H222 combo card > I still have. My set came from a PDP-11 I believe it was from an 11/34. > > Ed > > > On 2014-11-12 04:00, Jon Elson wrote: > >> On 11/11/2014 07:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > >>> I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 core board. > >>> > >>> KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD > >>> > >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 > >>> > >> Boy, that SURE looks like PDP-11 memory, not PDP-8. > >> The cast metal stiffener I think came in at least very late in the game > >> for the PDP-8. PDP-8s usually had the colored plastic pull handles. > > > > The fact that the board have four edge connectors and not six totally > > excludes PDP-11. As for hex size with metal handles, that was used on > > the 8/A. (Which indeed is late in the PDP-8 game, but then again, it > > wasn't until the 8/A that you saw hex boards either, so if this would be > > for a PDP-8, it would have to be an 8/A, since no other model fits the > > hex boards.) > > > > But this is not 8/A core memory either, since those actually have all > > six connectors on the board, even if only a few signals were used on > > connector 5, and no signals were used on 6. > > > > But since this isn't even DEC stuff, it could still possibly have been > > something for a PDP-8. PDP-11 is still out of the question because of > > the four connectors. > > > > Johnny > > > > -- > > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > > || on a psychedelic trip > > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > > > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Nov 12 00:58:44 2014 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:58:44 +0100 Subject: List downtime. Message-ID: <20141112065844.GA23413@Update.UU.SE> I'm back! (if anyone should care :-) I just resubscribed. Thanks to those who worked to get the list back online. I assume Jay. Big thanks. /P From jws at jwsss.com Wed Nov 12 01:09:18 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 23:09:18 -0800 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <5462EC26.90405@pico-systems.com> References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> <5462EC26.90405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5463079E.5060004@jwsss.com> On 11/11/2014 9:12 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/11/2014 09:18 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2014-11-12 04:00, Jon Elson wrote: >>> On 11/11/2014 07:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>>> I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 core board. >>>> >>>> KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD >>>> >>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 >>>> >>> >> >> The fact that the board have four edge connectors and not six totally >> excludes PDP-11. > The first and last picture of the ebay listing above clearly has SIX > edge connectors. > And, in fact, a number of PDP-11 peripheral boards had only 4 connectors. > CPU boards and memory did usually have 6. > > Jon > > I based my PDP8 on googling and looking for comments about the processor type. There was a history page which said they used PDP8s in their designs. I know that the 6 up is more common for PDP11, but wanted to throw it out there. I figured a core board of the right variety for $195 might be a steal since the seller didn't list it to be on the DEC hardware searches on Ebay. Thanks for Al's comment on the 6800 board. I see about half of all photos being crap these days on ebay. I was crossing fingers it would be a design that started out as an actual dec, and maybe had a small board built up with a Harris pdp processor on it. I know that is a really long shot, but not impossible. thanks for the comments. Jim From useddec at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 01:13:32 2014 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 01:13:32 -0600 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <5463079E.5060004@jwsss.com> References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> <5462EC26.90405@pico-systems.com> <5463079E.5060004@jwsss.com> Message-ID: pic #4 shows a DEC core sticker on the back, but out of focus. On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:09 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > On 11/11/2014 9:12 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> On 11/11/2014 09:18 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >>> On 2014-11-12 04:00, Jon Elson wrote: >>> >>>> On 11/11/2014 07:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>>> >>>>> I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 core board. >>>>> >>>>> KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD >>>>> >>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> The fact that the board have four edge connectors and not six totally >>> excludes PDP-11. >>> >> The first and last picture of the ebay listing above clearly has SIX edge >> connectors. >> And, in fact, a number of PDP-11 peripheral boards had only 4 connectors. >> CPU boards and memory did usually have 6. >> >> Jon >> >> >> I based my PDP8 on googling and looking for comments about the processor > type. There was a history page which said they used PDP8s in their > designs. I know that the 6 up is more common for PDP11, but wanted to > throw it out there. I figured a core board of the right variety for $195 > might be a steal since the seller didn't list it to be on the DEC hardware > searches on Ebay. > > Thanks for Al's comment on the 6800 board. I see about half of all photos > being crap these days on ebay. I was crossing fingers it would be a design > that started out as an actual dec, and maybe had a small board built up > with a Harris pdp processor on it. I know that is a really long shot, but > not impossible. > > thanks for the comments. > Jim > From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 01:41:44 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 08:41:44 +0100 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> <5462EC26.90405@pico-systems.com> <5463079E.5060004@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Looking at page 3-17 of http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8a/EK-8A001-OP-002_PDP-8A_Operators_Handbook_Sep76.pdf shows that it is as far as I can see identical to the 16 k MM8-AB. 2014-11-12 8:13 GMT+01:00 Paul Anderson : > pic #4 shows a DEC core sticker on the back, but out of focus. > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:09 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > > > On 11/11/2014 9:12 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > > >> On 11/11/2014 09:18 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> > >>> On 2014-11-12 04:00, Jon Elson wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 11/11/2014 07:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 core board. > >>>>> > >>>>> KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> The fact that the board have four edge connectors and not six totally > >>> excludes PDP-11. > >>> > >> The first and last picture of the ebay listing above clearly has SIX > edge > >> connectors. > >> And, in fact, a number of PDP-11 peripheral boards had only 4 > connectors. > >> CPU boards and memory did usually have 6. > >> > >> Jon > >> > >> > >> I based my PDP8 on googling and looking for comments about the > processor > > type. There was a history page which said they used PDP8s in their > > designs. I know that the 6 up is more common for PDP11, but wanted to > > throw it out there. I figured a core board of the right variety for $195 > > might be a steal since the seller didn't list it to be on the DEC > hardware > > searches on Ebay. > > > > Thanks for Al's comment on the 6800 board. I see about half of all > photos > > being crap these days on ebay. I was crossing fingers it would be a > design > > that started out as an actual dec, and maybe had a small board built up > > with a Harris pdp processor on it. I know that is a really long shot, > but > > not impossible. > > > > thanks for the comments. > > Jim > > > From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 01:47:37 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 08:47:37 +0100 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> <5462EC26.90405@pico-systems.com> <5463079E.5060004@jwsss.com> Message-ID: This is another Ebay item which seems to be identical : http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-H219B-16K-x-12-Core-Memory-Stack-Board-Flip-Chip-PDP-two-board-set-/151472858658?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item23447c6622 . Also indicate PDP8/a system core mem, MM8-AB. 2014-11-12 8:41 GMT+01:00 Mattis Lind : > Looking at page 3-17 of > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8a/EK-8A001-OP-002_PDP-8A_Operators_Handbook_Sep76.pdf > shows that it is as far as I can see identical to the 16 k MM8-AB. > > 2014-11-12 8:13 GMT+01:00 Paul Anderson : > >> pic #4 shows a DEC core sticker on the back, but out of focus. >> >> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:09 AM, jwsmobile wrote: >> >> > >> > On 11/11/2014 9:12 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> > >> >> On 11/11/2014 09:18 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> >> >>> On 2014-11-12 04:00, Jon Elson wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> On 11/11/2014 07:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 core board. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD >> >>>>> >> >>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>> The fact that the board have four edge connectors and not six totally >> >>> excludes PDP-11. >> >>> >> >> The first and last picture of the ebay listing above clearly has SIX >> edge >> >> connectors. >> >> And, in fact, a number of PDP-11 peripheral boards had only 4 >> connectors. >> >> CPU boards and memory did usually have 6. >> >> >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> >> >> I based my PDP8 on googling and looking for comments about the >> processor >> > type. There was a history page which said they used PDP8s in their >> > designs. I know that the 6 up is more common for PDP11, but wanted to >> > throw it out there. I figured a core board of the right variety for >> $195 >> > might be a steal since the seller didn't list it to be on the DEC >> hardware >> > searches on Ebay. >> > >> > Thanks for Al's comment on the 6800 board. I see about half of all >> photos >> > being crap these days on ebay. I was crossing fingers it would be a >> design >> > that started out as an actual dec, and maybe had a small board built up >> > with a Harris pdp processor on it. I know that is a really long shot, >> but >> > not impossible. >> > >> > thanks for the comments. >> > Jim >> > >> > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 12 05:16:49 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 11:16:49 +0000 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> <5462EC26.90405@pico-systems.com> <5463079E.5060004@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <546341A1.8070406@dunnington.plus.com> FWIW I'm pretty sure these boards are for a PDP-8/A chassis. See below... On 12/11/2014 07:13, Paul Anderson wrote: > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:09 AM, jwsmobile wrote: >> On 11/11/2014 9:12 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >>> On 11/11/2014 09:18 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> On 2014-11-12 04:00, Jon Elson wrote: >>>>> On 11/11/2014 07:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 >>>>>> core board. >>>>>> >>>>>> KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 >>>> The fact that the board have four edge connectors and not six >>>> totally excludes PDP-11. Not necessarily, but it's extremely hard to imagine how it could possibly be a Unibus board with four edge connectors on ABCD rather than CDEF, and the only QBus chassis those boards would fit would be an H909 with a DDV11 backplane. So, I'd agree it's highly unlikely to be any sort of -11. I believe this system was based on a PDP-8/A because: - the memory doesn't look /quite/ like my 11/34 core but does look like 12-bit PDP-8/A memory; - the seller has several other cards from what seem to be the same system, or at least the same type, some of which have I/O connectors just above where the EF fingers would be - as found on some PDP-8/A boards, but not AFAIK on any others; - the pattern of power/ground connections visible on the solder side of some exactly match the Omnibus layout but not Unibus or Qbus; - a friend has a similar CNC system, built in a PDP-8/A chassis, with a papertape reader exactly the same as the one in one of the seller's other auctions. There's a picture of it here, taken at DEC Legacy 2011: http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/node/129 It's a long time since I looked inside that system, so I can't be sure how many of its boards were custom items, or if they match the listings. Unfortunately I can't go and look for a week or two :-( From hachti at hachti.de Wed Nov 12 05:57:31 2014 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 12:57:31 +0100 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <54634B2B.7000104@hachti.de> Am 12.11.2014 um 02:33 schrieb jwsmobile: > I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 core board. > > KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 > > board is 6 across in size. > Can't understand this discussion. This is a pdp8/a core module. I don't believe that there's any other 12 bit memory that looks exactly like the 8/a module - and actually is something different. Count the components and you will see that it is a 12 bit thing... Philipp From chrise at pobox.com Wed Nov 12 07:29:11 2014 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:29:11 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Altair / S-100 serial comms board w/ documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141112132911.GE7594@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (11/11/2014 at 11:10PM -0600), drlegendre . wrote: > > I had not the slightest idea how to deal with it, so I removed the works > from the top of the base, and THREW IT OUT OF MY SECOND-FLOOR BEDROOM > WINDOW. It was so heavy, I didn't want to have to carry it back down. The > base served as an excellent printer stand for several years, and the > not-so-obvious access panel did well to conceal various contraband during > the same period.) Hey! You weren't the guy that threw a model 33 Teletype down three flights of stairs at Mounds View High School in 1980 too were you? ;-) -- Chris Elmquist From j at ckrubin.us Wed Nov 12 08:27:55 2014 From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 14:27:55 +0000 Subject: LINC archives Message-ID: <8cbd30b4874e4406b3b8ca6a460c0fa1@BLUPR05MB166.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Here's a collection of LINC material, produced in conjunction with the LINC reunion in St. Louis a few years back - http://tinyurl.com/LINC-StLouis . Jack From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 12 09:37:36 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 09:37:36 -0600 Subject: assistance sought with mailman Message-ID: <001101cffe8e$9683b9a0$c38b2ce0$@classiccmp.org> Greetings folks. The additional drive was added to ccmp server last night. No problems encountered other than for some oddball reason xenserver added it as drive 4 instead of drive 3. It thinks drive 3 slot is in use but it's not. I can live with ada3p1 ;) I've got my hands full with some work on bitsavers as well as ongoing client workload, and some rough edges still remain on the mailman "two views of the same list but joined at the hip" thing. That needs to be addressed quickly before the current/new archives get incoherent but I'm short on available time. So, is there anyone that is *very* well versed in mailman "under the hood" that can do a one-time assist with the following: 1) Get the "two views of the same list but joined at the hip" working the way it previously was. I have some details/recollections on this, but not complete "do this" instructions. 2) There has been an ongoing issue for years with the "forgot password" emails and/or the new subscriber email verification not working right. 3) Please for the love of god figure out why every single post to the list gets me a "bounce rejection" notice to my mailbox and stop it. 4) Integrate multiple fragments (I have several, if that's not complete other listmembers have mentioned they can supply any missing fragments) of the list archives into one archive that is complete. FYI - when rebuilding the server a couple weeks ago, I switched from sendmail to postfix, so a passing familiarity with postfix would be helpful as well in your endeavors above. The OS is FreeBSD r10 p11. If anyone is versed in the above and has a bit of time to spearhead the above tasks, please email me off-list. Also - once the archives are cleaned up, two other folks have volunteered to get archive searches to be "much improved". Thanks!! J From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Nov 12 09:43:30 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 16:43:30 +0100 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <5462EC26.90405@pico-systems.com> References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> <5462EC26.90405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <54638022.8080503@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-12 06:12, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/11/2014 09:18 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2014-11-12 04:00, Jon Elson wrote: >>> On 11/11/2014 07:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>>> I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 core board. >>>> >>>> KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD >>>> >>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 >>>> >>> >> >> The fact that the board have four edge connectors and not six totally >> excludes PDP-11. > The first and last picture of the ebay listing above clearly has SIX > edge connectors. Doh. I was mixing up different images from different listings. Sorry. > And, in fact, a number of PDP-11 peripheral boards had only 4 connectors. > CPU boards and memory did usually have 6. There were definitely quad height boards, but I don't think I ever saw a PDP-11 board that was hex height with only four edge connectors. But I'm sure you will point me to one now. :-) Johnny From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 12 10:08:44 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 10:08:44 -0600 Subject: ccmp server Message-ID: <003301cffe92$ef6bbf50$ce433df0$@classiccmp.org> FTP has been re-activated on the new server, so those who have websites/content on the machine can again get in via ftp to add/remove/change content. J From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 12 11:27:59 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 11:27:59 -0600 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <54638022.8080503@update.uu.se> References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> <5462EC26.90405@pico-systems.com> <54638022.8080503@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5463989F.4020103@pico-systems.com> On 11/12/2014 09:43 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > There were definitely quad height boards, but I don't > think I ever saw a PDP-11 board that was hex height with > only four edge connectors. But I'm sure you will point me > to one now. :-) > There definitely existed such boards. I don't remember if these were made by DEC or 3rd party. The idea was that the Unibus backplane segments had 9 hex-wide slots. The two end slots had the Unibus in and out jumpers/cables plugged into them. if a board was hex wide at the handle end, but cut down to quad wide for a couple inches at the connector end, it could fit in those end slots, which were often left unused otherwise. Later DEC went to the full-height Unibus jumpers with about 5 feet of cable in them to clean up bus signals, and this scheme didn't work anymore. But, it did with the old short Unibus jumpers. And, of course, the very OLDEST PDP-11 peripherals were built up out of a bunch of dual-wide boards. There were standard boards such as address recognizers and 16-bit registers, And so a parallel or serial interface would take up a whole Unibus backplane segment with half a dozen boards in it. Jon From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 12:37:41 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 10:37:41 -0800 Subject: DECwriter Correspondent (LA12) mechanical issue... In-Reply-To: References: <545D0791.3070804@gmail.com> <5460DC1B.2020301@dds.nl> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Thanks a ton for going through the trouble on this, it's much appreciated. > > I'll have to go through mine and see if that clip somehow ended up wedged > somewhere inside. Otherwise, I guess it can't be too hard to build a > replacement. > > Thanks again! > Josh > Just a quick update on this -- I opened the Correspondent up and went through it with a flashlight and found the clip wedged in a rear corner, behind some wiring. It had at some point gotten ripped off the underside of the carriage (along with most of the plastic post it was screwed to). I glued it back into place and the terminal is operating much better now but still has some issues -- when the carriage reaches either end of the platen it starts twitching rapidly back and forth and the terminal stops responding to input. It sounds like some sort of sensor issue, perhaps the logic is confused about exactly where the carriage is. Time to do some debugging, I suppose :). Thanks again, - Josh > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 7:39 AM, Simon Claessen wrote: > >> hey there, >> >> Today I got some time to take a look at our correspondent and guess what, >> there should be a brass clip to hold the ball: >> >> https://hack42.nl/gallery/v/Museum/2014-11-10-693.jpg.html >> >> I could not take the clip off. wiggling it also moved the spring holding >> the print needle block. >> >> simon >> >> >> On 07-11-14 18:55, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> Hi all -- >>> >>> Got myself a nice looking DECwriter Correspondent (AKA the LA12). It's >>> having a bit of trouble moving the carriage assembly and I can't find a >>> service manual for this thing. (It's similar in some respects to the >>> DECwriter IV, but the mechanical parts appear to be fairly different.) >>> >>> The carriage assembly (print head, ribbon) is carried from one end of >>> the platen to the other via a cable attached to a servo motor on one end >>> and a pulley on the other; in the middle of this cable is a small metal >>> ball -- this ball is (as far as I can tell) meant to sit in a small >>> "cup" on the underside of the carriage and when the cable moves, the >>> ball pulls the carriage along. I'm assuming this was done this way >>> since the Correspondent is meant to be portable, and allowing the >>> carriage to break free of the pulley mechanism would probably reduce >>> damage in the case of a sudden shock (like getting dropped.) >>> >>> So far so good -- unfortunately the vast majority of the time, the ball >>> leaves the carriage behind (especially on carriage return) and I can't >>> quite figure out what's out of tolerance -- the carriage appears to move >>> smoothly, nothing is bent out of shape or broken as far as I can tell, >>> and there's plenty of tension in the cable. There's also not much to >>> adjust here so I'm kind of puzzled. >>> >>> I've put up a few pictures (and a short video demonstrating the problem) >>> with the print head/ribbon removed here: >>> >>> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/la12 >>> >>> Anyone ever worked on one of these before? Any ideas? >>> >>> Thanks as always, >>> Josh >>> >>> >> -- >> Met vriendelijke Groet, >> >> Simon Claessen >> drukknop.nl >> > > From anders at abc80.net Wed Nov 12 12:49:45 2014 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 19:49:45 +0100 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4a232bbb2b613e6ffebaa951272ac747.squirrel@www.sadata.se> Hello, Here is some hi resolution pictures on front/back of a MM8-AB 16K core. Fits perfectly in a PDP-8a that has the correct power supply (G8018). http://www.abc80.net/docs/pdp8/pdp8a/DSC_2252.JPG http://www.abc80.net/docs/pdp8/pdp8a/DSC_2253.JPG The picture on ebay is really bad, but you can see that it is the same. /Anders > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 08:47:37 +0100 > From: Mattis Lind > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > This is another Ebay item which seems to be identical : > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-H219B-16K-x-12-Core-Memory-Stack-Board-Flip-Chip-PDP-two-board-set-/151472858658?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item23447c6622 > . > > Also indicate PDP8/a system core mem, MM8-AB. > > 2014-11-12 8:41 GMT+01:00 Mattis Lind : > >> Looking at page 3-17 of >> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8a/EK-8A001-OP-002_PDP-8A_Operators_Handbook_Sep76.pdf >> shows that it is as far as I can see identical to the 16 k MM8-AB. >> >> 2014-11-12 8:13 GMT+01:00 Paul Anderson : >> >>> pic #4 shows a DEC core sticker on the back, but out of focus. >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:09 AM, jwsmobile wrote: >>> >>> > >>> > On 11/11/2014 9:12 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >>> > >>> >> On 11/11/2014 09:18 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> On 2014-11-12 04:00, Jon Elson wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 11/11/2014 07:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 core >>> board. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> The fact that the board have four edge connectors and not six >>> totally >>> >>> excludes PDP-11. >>> >>> >>> >> The first and last picture of the ebay listing above clearly has SIX >>> edge >>> >> connectors. >>> >> And, in fact, a number of PDP-11 peripheral boards had only 4 >>> connectors. >>> >> CPU boards and memory did usually have 6. >>> >> >>> >> Jon >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> I based my PDP8 on googling and looking for comments about the >>> processor >>> > type. There was a history page which said they used PDP8s in their >>> > designs. I know that the 6 up is more common for PDP11, but wanted >>> to >>> > throw it out there. I figured a core board of the right variety for >>> $195 >>> > might be a steal since the seller didn't list it to be on the DEC >>> hardware >>> > searches on Ebay. >>> > >>> > Thanks for Al's comment on the 6800 board. I see about half of all >>> photos >>> > being crap these days on ebay. I was crossing fingers it would be a >>> design >>> > that started out as an actual dec, and maybe had a small board built >>> up >>> > with a Harris pdp processor on it. I know that is a really long >>> shot, >>> but >>> > not impossible. >>> > >>> > thanks for the comments. >>> > Jim >>> > >>> >> >> > From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 16:18:56 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 16:18:56 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Altair / S-100 serial comms board w/ documentation In-Reply-To: <20141112132911.GE7594@n0jcf.net> References: <20141112132911.GE7594@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Nope, I'm only responsible for the one what went out the window. Landed on the ground outside the window by the kitchen table, where stepdad was sitting. To begin with, the guy was a total anger junkie, a real freak - and you shoulda heard him +that+ time. Thing is, no one was hurt or endangered, nothing of value (to him) was damaged or lost, and I "got that d*mn piece of crap" out of my room.. so I really didn't see what he had to be so angry about. Neither did he, which was a real mind-fsck for that shriveled-up little yellow pea-brain of his.. but he was pretty sure it was the sort of thing he ought to get really pissed-off over, so get pissed he did. On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 7:29 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Tuesday (11/11/2014 at 11:10PM -0600), drlegendre . wrote: > > > > I had not the slightest idea how to deal with it, so I removed the works > > from the top of the base, and THREW IT OUT OF MY SECOND-FLOOR BEDROOM > > WINDOW. It was so heavy, I didn't want to have to carry it back down. The > > base served as an excellent printer stand for several years, and the > > not-so-obvious access panel did well to conceal various contraband during > > the same period.) > > Hey! You weren't the guy that threw a model 33 Teletype down three > flights of stairs at Mounds View High School in 1980 too were you? > > ;-) > -- > Chris Elmquist > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 12 17:55:02 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 15:55:02 -0800 Subject: Full-size 600 ohm telo transformers In-Reply-To: References: <54629A03.5000201@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5463F356.8080208@sydex.com> I've got one here in my hands. Aluminum housing (potted construction), solder terminals on the bottom, labeled 1,2,3,4 2.5"H x 2"D x 2.5" W Only ID is the number 080-00785-03 on the side. Fairly hefty: 1.25 lbs, DC resistance (both sides) 1.2 ohm. Let me know, I'm doing some housecleaning. I haven't looked carefully; I may have only 4 left. After sleeping on this, I recall that there were a bunch of plug-in passive LC filter modules, then "stapled wiring" PCB modules with mercury-wetted relays and a bunch of moto TO3 diodes and transistors. --Chuck From jcw1231 at pacbell.net Wed Nov 12 18:35:19 2014 From: jcw1231 at pacbell.net (JC White) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 16:35:19 -0800 Subject: Full-size 600 ohm telo transformers In-Reply-To: <5463F356.8080208@sydex.com> References: <54629A03.5000201@sydex.com> <5463F356.8080208@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1415838919.23793.YahooMailNeo@web181605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Chuck please contact me off list about the transformers, etc John jcw1231 at pacbell.net ________________________________ From: Chuck Guzis To: General at classiccmp.org Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 3:55 PM Subject: Re: Full-size 600 ohm telo transformers I've got one here in my hands. Aluminum housing (potted construction), solder terminals on the bottom, labeled 1,2,3,4 2.5"H x 2"D x 2.5" W Only ID is the number 080-00785-03 on the side. Fairly hefty: 1.25 lbs, DC resistance (both sides) 1.2 ohm. Let me know, I'm doing some housecleaning. I haven't looked carefully; I may have only 4 left. After sleeping on this, I recall that there were a bunch of plug-in passive LC filter modules, then "stapled wiring" PCB modules with mercury-wetted relays and a bunch of moto TO3 diodes and transistors. --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Nov 13 17:17:02 2014 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 18:17:02 -0500 Subject: Still Alive? Message-ID: <54653BEE.5040900@compsys.to> Still Alive - Test - Please do not respond!!!!!!!!!!!! From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 13 18:40:53 2014 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 19:40:53 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender In-Reply-To: <20141114003913.9FC6C2073C34@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20141114003913.9FC6C2073C34@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54654F95.8080702@sbcglobal.net> Hrm? -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 18:39:13 -0600 (CST) From: Mail Delivery System To: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net This is the mail system at host huey.classiccmp.org. I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below. For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster. If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the attached returned message. The mail system : unknown user: "general" -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 13 22:27:57 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 22:27:57 -0600 Subject: test Message-ID: <000001cfffc3$5ec6b4a0$1c541de0$@classiccmp.org> Sorry, testing myself. From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 22:28:25 2014 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 22:28:25 -0600 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <000001cfffc3$5ec6b4a0$1c541de0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001cfffc3$5ec6b4a0$1c541de0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Received, if that helps any :-) On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 10:27 PM, Jay West wrote: > Sorry, testing myself. > > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 13 18:32:53 2014 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 19:32:53 -0500 Subject: Still Alive? In-Reply-To: <54653BEE.5040900@compsys.to> References: <54653BEE.5040900@compsys.to> Message-ID: <54654DB5.40701@sbcglobal.net> On 11/13/2014 06:17 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Still Alive - Test - Please do not respond!!!!!!!!!!!! Too late.... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 12 18:50:28 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 16:50:28 -0800 Subject: Full-size 600 ohm telo transformers In-Reply-To: <1415838919.23793.YahooMailNeo@web181605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <54629A03.5000201@sydex.com> <5463F356.8080208@sydex.com> <1415838919.23793.YahooMailNeo@web181605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54640054.1050600@sydex.com> On 11/12/2014 04:35 PM, JC White wrote: > Chuck please contact me off list about the transformers, etc > > John > jcw1231 at pacbell.net Sure John, what can I help you with? --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Wed Nov 12 14:30:23 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 12:30:23 -0800 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <54638022.8080503@update.uu.se> References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> <5462EC26.90405@pico-systems.com> <54638022.8080503@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5463C35F.9050305@jwsss.com> On 11/12/2014 7:43 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-11-12 06:12, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 11/11/2014 09:18 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> On 2014-11-12 04:00, Jon Elson wrote: >>>> On 11/11/2014 07:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>>>> I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 core board. >>>>> >>>>> KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD >>>>> >>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> The fact that the board have four edge connectors and not six totally >>> excludes PDP-11. >> The first and last picture of the ebay listing above clearly has SIX >> edge connectors. > > Doh. I was mixing up different images from different listings. Sorry. > >> And, in fact, a number of PDP-11 peripheral boards had only 4 >> connectors. >> CPU boards and memory did usually have 6. > > There were definitely quad height boards, but I don't think I ever saw > a PDP-11 board that was hex height with only four edge connectors. But > I'm sure you will point me to one now. :-) > > Johnny > > I never said the boards with 4 connectors which appear to be hex high were anything to do with Dec, other than they were replacement boards of some sort. I was sort of hoping they might be Harris 6100 boards and 12 bit, but as Al K pointed out the processor chip is probably Motorola which rules that out. If you zoom in you will notice that none of these boards seem to have flipchip connector. I have not squinted to see if they might fit without the keying feature on the board as well. Dec was very protective of that and sued or hassled anyone who used that form factor or edge card arrangement, and these guys may have kept the form factor for card cage physical handling and used other connectors. I've not seen much other than this one vendors boards. I guess they didn't need the count of connections and dropped two connectors for cost. thanks jim From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 00:46:00 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 22:46:00 -0800 Subject: Non-CRTC PET video circuitry... Message-ID: <546453A8.8050501@gmail.com> Yet another "oh, let's spend an evening doing a small project" that's ballooned into a major undertaking: I thought I'd try my hand at getting my old PET up and running again; this is an original "chiclet" keyboard model (with 6550 RAMs and no CRT Controller chip). There are a multitude of problems with it (the CPU isn't resetting, I'm sure there's bad RAM and ROM) but I thought I'd start with the most obvious fault -- the video generation. Here's a picture of what it's currently doing (sorry it's not very good...) : http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/pet/oneline.jpg It's only drawing a single line of characters (garbage with some noise due to a very terrible socket holding the character ROM), centered vertically. I initially thought this was a VRAM addressing issue (a stuck counter or whatnot) but it turns out the VSync signal is much too fast -- it's only about 1.2ms long (it's supposed to be about 16ms). I'm actually surprised the monitor can deal with that without damage, so I've been leaving the monitor disconnected while debugging. The HSync period is correct (63.8us or so), and most of the addressing / character display logic (which is driven by earlier portions of the video timing chain) seems to be running correctly, it's just only getting a chance to draw one line of characters before the next frame starts. I'm not having much luck tracing down the fault; I have a schematic (http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/2001/320008-3.gif) but it's not making it easy to work out exactly how everything ties together. I can't find anything resembling a service manual for this model, but perhaps I haven't looked hard enough yet. The initial clock (output of E2 pin 6) is correct at 8Mhz; this is divided down to 2Mhz by the counter at C9 (pin 8, the divide by 4 output), which is passed to the 74LS107 at C7 and from here it gets murky and I don't quite see how things fit. I did replace C7 to no effect (ok, I jumped to conclusions...). The divided clock outputs (Q, pins 3/2) from this have a period of about 256us; the LS107 at B6 divides this down to the final period of 1.2ms which is used for the VSync signal. Has anyone here any experience with this hardware? Any tips? Thanks, Josh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 14 00:44:00 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 06:44:00 +0000 Subject: Non-CRTC PET video circuitry... In-Reply-To: <546453A8.8050501@gmail.com> References: <546453A8.8050501@gmail.com> Message-ID: > t's only drawing a single line of characters (garbage with some noise > due to a very terrible socket holding the character ROM), centered > vertically. I initially thought this was a VRAM addressing issue (a > stuck counter or whatnot) but it turns out the VSync signal is much too Since the vertical timing signal is triggered by the counters getting to end of frame, are you sure it's not a counter problem? Are D6 and D7 counting correctly? > fast -- it's only about 1.2ms long (it's supposed to be about 16ms). > I'm actually surprised the monitor can deal with that without damage, so > I've been leaving the monitor disconnected while debugging. The HSync > period is correct (63.8us or so), and most of the addressing / character > display logic (which is driven by earlier portions of the video timing > chain) seems to be running correctly, it's just only getting a chance to > draw one line of characters before the next frame starts. > I'm not having much luck tracing down the fault; I have a schematic > (http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/2001/320008-3.gif) > but it's not making it easy to work out exactly how everything ties > together. I can't find anything resembling a service manual for this > model, but perhaps I haven't looked hard enough yet. I agree, that's not a nice schematic. It's not obvious if an input (e.g. a reset input) is actually a logic signal or just pulled high. You have to trace it all over the diagram. Anyway, I think I would start at C6 pin 13. Is it stuck high, or totally the wrong period? Then check the gates ay the bottom next to the copyright notice, E8, etc. -tony From simski at dds.nl Thu Nov 13 10:39:25 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 17:39:25 +0100 Subject: CPT wordprocessors Message-ID: <5464DEBD.5080603@dds.nl> Hello all, we have two machines in our collection: a 8515 and a phoenix, both rebranded to OCE, a dutch plotter manufacurer. Both machines are missing their bootmedia. is someone able to copy those or image them? The 8515 uses 8" media, the phoenix 3.5" -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From leec2124 at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 12:44:11 2014 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 10:44:11 -0800 Subject: HP3000 Boards Available Message-ID: I have several untested spare boards for HP3000 9xx series systems available for shipping from 94025. 1. 802.3 interface board (HP 27125-80201) - I have a mystery cable that may go with this board, included. 2. HP-IB interface (HP 27110-60301) with couple cables 3. MUX card (HP 27140-60001) - this may be for a HP-UX 800 Series machines. First come, first serve. Contact me off-list via lee_courtney at acm.org -- Lee Courtney From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Nov 14 01:23:04 2014 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 07:23:04 +0000 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <000001cfffc3$5ec6b4a0$1c541de0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001cfffc3$5ec6b4a0$1c541de0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: You'll go blind. On 14 November 2014 04:27, Jay West wrote: > Sorry, testing myself. > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Nov 14 02:50:45 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 00:50:45 -0800 Subject: Non-CRTC PET video circuitry... In-Reply-To: References: <546453A8.8050501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5465C265.4040705@gmail.com> On 11/13/2014 10:44 PM, tony duell wrote: >> t's only drawing a single line of characters (garbage with some noise >> due to a very terrible socket holding the character ROM), centered >> vertically. I initially thought this was a VRAM addressing issue (a >> stuck counter or whatnot) but it turns out the VSync signal is much too > Since the vertical timing signal is triggered by the counters getting to end of frame, are > you sure it's not a counter problem? Are D6 and D7 counting correctly? Thank you -- I knew that the counters fed back into the monitor control logic but after I had initially taken a look at the counters (at D6 and D7) I saw that the Load and Clear inputs were getting triggered rapidly (at 64us intervals) and I assumed (incorrectly) that this was the actual problem -- that this load / clear behavior was incorrect. And after debugging that for a few hours last night I *completely* spaced on that counter-controls-the-monitor thing and after confirming that the 64us interval was actually correct never went back to look at the counters. Well, I just did. D6 is fine. D7 has all of its outputs stuck high. Replaced it and I now have a full display (of random garbage). Now to get the CPU to reset properly :). Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, as usual... - Josh > >> fast -- it's only about 1.2ms long (it's supposed to be about 16ms). >> I'm actually surprised the monitor can deal with that without damage, so >> I've been leaving the monitor disconnected while debugging. The HSync >> period is correct (63.8us or so), and most of the addressing / character >> display logic (which is driven by earlier portions of the video timing >> chain) seems to be running correctly, it's just only getting a chance to >> draw one line of characters before the next frame starts. >> I'm not having much luck tracing down the fault; I have a schematic >> (http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/2001/320008-3.gif) >> but it's not making it easy to work out exactly how everything ties >> together. I can't find anything resembling a service manual for this >> model, but perhaps I haven't looked hard enough yet. > I agree, that's not a nice schematic. It's not obvious if an input (e.g. a reset input) is actually a logic > signal or just pulled high. You have to trace it all over the diagram. > > Anyway, I think I would start at C6 pin 13. Is it stuck high, or totally the wrong period? > > Then check the gates ay the bottom next to the copyright notice, E8, etc. > > -tony > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 14 06:19:30 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 12:19:30 -0000 Subject: EAI Pace TA-10 Message-ID: <000401d00005$3ed8daa0$bc8a8fe0$@gmail.com> Folks, I have just bought one of these and it is behaving oddly. I think the PSU regulation is faulty. Does any one have a schematic of the PSU, or even just the regulator board. I think the US and UK actually have the same PSU as my UK version has 2 x 110 Volt primaries strapped in series. . Dave Wade G4UGM From towtechsteve at gmail.com Fri Nov 14 06:31:47 2014 From: towtechsteve at gmail.com (Steve Swindell) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 07:31:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun Intertel NEC for sale In-Reply-To: <8156176.66.1415968105048.JavaMail.steve@LeRoY> Message-ID: <15395470.89.1415968205248.JavaMail.steve@LeRoY> Make Offer If Interested, Thanks Sun Microsystems Server / 2 units - Sunfire 6800 - Removed from working condition Inter-Tel (100+ units / Cords and Headsets were disconnected) - Model ? Standard Digital Terminal - Part Number ? 550.4400 Inter-Tel (50+ units) / Cords and Headsets attached) - Model ? 8520 - Part Number ? 550.7200 NEC (25+ units) / Cords and Headsets attached) - Model ? DTH-8D-2(BK)TEL - Part Number ? Dterm 80 T.O.W.E.R. Surplus Steve Swindell (412) 657-2800 [AIM: (Steve Swindell) towersurplus at gmail.com] From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 14 07:57:21 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 07:57:21 -0600 Subject: drop in traffic yesterday Message-ID: <008d01d00012$e96adb50$bc4091f0$@classiccmp.org> The drop in list traffic yesterday was my fault. The problem was on a system unrelated to the classiccmp server, but it only affected the classiccmp server. I believe it would have impacted just over a day of traffic. Problem resolved, and my apologies. Details for the tech oriented: Our hosting service has two front end mail processors (mx1/mx2) that do a lot of quick/basic checks before passing mail onto the backend mailbox servers. One of them had an issue and had to be restored from a backup that was a couple weeks old. We don't normally think anything of that in this particular case, because the config files on a front end mx basically never change so any backup is good. Much to my chagrin, I didn't realize that the backup for mx2 was taken BEFORE switching the mail stream for classiccmp.org from the old ccmp server to the new one. Since both front end mail servers are equal preference, that means that about half the inbound mail for classiccmp.org was being directed to the old server which has pretty much been sliced up as things were migrated to the new server. Last night I changed mx2 to deliver to the correct/new classiccmp server (mx1 was already doing so), and that fixed the problem. Newbie mistake, my apologies. Best, J From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 14 09:03:22 2014 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 10:03:22 -0500 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <000001cfffc3$5ec6b4a0$1c541de0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001cfffc3$5ec6b4a0$1c541de0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <546619BA.6090200@sbcglobal.net> On 11/13/2014 11:27 PM, Jay West wrote: > Sorry, testing myself. > Did you pass? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 14 09:31:30 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 09:31:30 -0600 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <546619BA.6090200@sbcglobal.net> References: <000001cfffc3$5ec6b4a0$1c541de0$@classiccmp.org> <546619BA.6090200@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <001201d00020$10bdc4d0$32394e70$@classiccmp.org> No, epic fail. Separately, I can't figure out for the life of me how some posts are getting a cc to "general at classiccmp.org" which does not exist. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Woyciesjes Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 9:03 AM To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: test On 11/13/2014 11:27 PM, Jay West wrote: > Sorry, testing myself. > Did you pass? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 14 09:30:24 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 10:30:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: test In-Reply-To: <001201d00020$10bdc4d0$32394e70$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001cfffc3$5ec6b4a0$1c541de0$@classiccmp.org> <546619BA.6090200@sbcglobal.net> <001201d00020$10bdc4d0$32394e70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <201411141530.KAA12783@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Separately, I can't figure out for the life of me how some posts are > getting a cc to "general at classiccmp.org" which does not exist. I think the answer is right there: > -----Original Message----- [...] > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts This looks a whole lot like a MUA mishandling the list header To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" (Hardly surprising, for an MUA that leads to top-posting with untrimmed "-----Original Message-----"-style quoting.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From sbolton at bfree.on.ca Fri Nov 14 09:58:39 2014 From: sbolton at bfree.on.ca (Syd Bolton) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 10:58:39 -0500 Subject: Jack Livesley (co-host with Jim Butterfield) comes to the Personal Computer Museum Saturday Message-ID: <55aba1b373f11e2ff82f9312ec08cdb4@bfree.on.ca> For those that remember "Bits & Bytes" and "The Academy on Computers" that aired on TVOntario in 1983, I have some great news! While sadly Jim Butterfield passed away in 2007, co-host of the Academy, Jack Livesley, is still around and will be coming to the Personal Computer Museum (http://www.pcmuseum.ca) in Brantford, Ontario, Canada to do a live Q&A Saturday November 15, 2014 at 1:00 PM EST. For those that are not aware, the Personal Computer Museum is a not-for-profit and the only interactive personal computer museum in Canada. It is also home to Canada's largest videogame collection (over 15,000 games and counting) and also home to the largest known collection of CED video discs too! The visit is of significance to me personally because Jack was one of the people that inspired me to choose computers as a career path. He will be accompanied by Karl Hildon, who was the editor of "Transactor" magazine which folks that loved Commodore computers will definitely remember as well. Directions and more information can be found on our website. For a glimpse at Jack and more details on the event, please see http://pcmuseum.ca/jacklivesley.asp Admission is free although donations of electronics and money are always appreciated! From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Nov 14 10:57:05 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 08:57:05 -0800 Subject: Non-CRTC PET video circuitry... In-Reply-To: <5465C265.4040705@gmail.com> References: <546453A8.8050501@gmail.com> <5465C265.4040705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54663461.5070909@gmail.com> On 11/14/2014 12:50 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 11/13/2014 10:44 PM, tony duell wrote: >>> t's only drawing a single line of characters (garbage with some noise >>> due to a very terrible socket holding the character ROM), centered >>> vertically. I initially thought this was a VRAM addressing issue (a >>> stuck counter or whatnot) but it turns out the VSync signal is much too >> Since the vertical timing signal is triggered by the counters getting >> to end of frame, are >> you sure it's not a counter problem? Are D6 and D7 counting correctly? > > Thank you -- I knew that the counters fed back into the monitor > control logic but after I had initially taken a look at the counters > (at D6 and D7) I saw that the Load and Clear inputs were getting > triggered rapidly (at 64us intervals) and I assumed (incorrectly) that > this was the actual problem -- that this load / clear behavior was > incorrect. > > And after debugging that for a few hours last night I *completely* > spaced on that counter-controls-the-monitor thing and after confirming > that the 64us interval was actually correct never went back to look at > the counters. Addendum -- the 64us interval is correct for the Load signal, not Clear. Realized the mistake this morning when I got out of bed :). - Josh > > Well, I just did. D6 is fine. D7 has all of its outputs stuck high. > Replaced it and I now have a full display (of random garbage). > > Now to get the CPU to reset properly :). > > Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, as usual... > > - Josh > > >> >>> fast -- it's only about 1.2ms long (it's supposed to be about 16ms). >>> I'm actually surprised the monitor can deal with that without >>> damage, so >>> I've been leaving the monitor disconnected while debugging. The HSync >>> period is correct (63.8us or so), and most of the addressing / >>> character >>> display logic (which is driven by earlier portions of the video timing >>> chain) seems to be running correctly, it's just only getting a >>> chance to >>> draw one line of characters before the next frame starts. >>> I'm not having much luck tracing down the fault; I have a schematic >>> (http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/2001/320008-3.gif) >>> >>> but it's not making it easy to work out exactly how everything ties >>> together. I can't find anything resembling a service manual for this >>> model, but perhaps I haven't looked hard enough yet. >> I agree, that's not a nice schematic. It's not obvious if an input >> (e.g. a reset input) is actually a logic >> signal or just pulled high. You have to trace it all over the diagram. >> >> Anyway, I think I would start at C6 pin 13. Is it stuck high, or >> totally the wrong period? >> >> Then check the gates ay the bottom next to the copyright notice, E8, >> etc. >> >> -tony >> >> > From evan at snarc.net Fri Nov 14 07:35:03 2014 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 08:35:03 -0500 Subject: EAI Pace TA-10 In-Reply-To: <000401d00005$3ed8daa0$bc8a8fe0$@gmail.com> References: <000401d00005$3ed8daa0$bc8a8fe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54660507.7050800@snarc.net> > Folks, > > I have just bought one of these and it is behaving oddly. I think the PSU > regulation is faulty. Does any one have a schematic of the PSU, or even just > the regulator board. I think the US and UK actually have the same PSU as my > UK version has 2 x 110 Volt primaries strapped in series. . > > Dave Wade > > G4UGM Happen to know if it's the same PSU as the TR-20? (MARCH has the -20 and a decent set of documentation.) From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Fri Nov 14 07:45:48 2014 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 08:45:48 -0500 Subject: Sun Intertel NEC for sale In-Reply-To: <15395470.89.1415968205248.JavaMail.steve@LeRoY> References: <8156176.66.1415968105048.JavaMail.steve@LeRoY> <15395470.89.1415968205248.JavaMail.steve@LeRoY> Message-ID: Hello Steve - I might be a good home for one of your Sunfires. I've got a few questions though... Where are the machines at? I'm in Atlanta, GA so I'm looking to see if it's close enough to pick up or what freight would be. Do you have any pictures so I could see what condition it's in or maybe how its still equipped? I'm trying to find out if someone has already raided the machine for parts. Also - have the drives been removed? If not, what does it have? Thanks for any more info you can provide! Todd Killingsworth killingsworth.todd at gmail.com On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 7:31 AM, Steve Swindell wrote: > Make Offer If Interested, Thanks > > > > > > > Sun Microsystems Server / 2 units > > - Sunfire 6800 > > - Removed from working condition > > Inter-Tel (100+ units / Cords and Headsets were disconnected) > > - Model ? Standard Digital Terminal > > - Part Number ? 550.4400 > > > > Inter-Tel (50+ units) / Cords and Headsets attached) > > - Model ? 8520 > > - Part Number ? 550.7200 > > > > NEC (25+ units) / Cords and Headsets attached) > > - Model ? DTH-8D-2(BK)TEL > > - Part Number ? Dterm 80 > > > > > > T.O.W.E.R. Surplus > > Steve Swindell > (412) 657-2800 > [AIM: (Steve Swindell) > towersurplus at gmail.com] > > > From alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net Fri Nov 14 08:49:17 2014 From: alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net (Alex McWhirter) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 09:49:17 -0500 Subject: Sun Intertel NEC for sale In-Reply-To: <15395470.89.1415968205248.JavaMail.steve@LeRoY> References: <15395470.89.1415968205248.JavaMail.steve@LeRoY> Message-ID: Where are the Sun servers located. Are you selling them individually or as a package? > On Nov 14, 2014, at 7:31 AM, Steve Swindell wrote: > > Make Offer If Interested, Thanks > > > > > > > Sun Microsystems Server / 2 units > > - Sunfire 6800 > > - Removed from working condition > > Inter-Tel (100+ units / Cords and Headsets were disconnected) > > - Model ? Standard Digital Terminal > > - Part Number ? 550.4400 > > > > Inter-Tel (50+ units) / Cords and Headsets attached) > > - Model ? 8520 > > - Part Number ? 550.7200 > > > > NEC (25+ units) / Cords and Headsets attached) > > - Model ? DTH-8D-2(BK)TEL > > - Part Number ? Dterm 80 > > > > > > T.O.W.E.R. Surplus > > Steve Swindell > (412) 657-2800 > [AIM: (Steve Swindell) > towersurplus at gmail.com] > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 14 12:18:08 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 18:18:08 -0000 Subject: EAI Pace TA-10 In-Reply-To: <54660507.7050800@snarc.net> References: <000401d00005$3ed8daa0$bc8a8fe0$@gmail.com> <54660507.7050800@snarc.net> Message-ID: <059d01d00037$587cce80$09766b80$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan > Koblentz > Sent: 14 November 2014 13:35 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: EAI Pace TA-10 > > > > Folks, > > > > I have just bought one of these and it is behaving oddly. I think the > > PSU regulation is faulty. Does any one have a schematic of the PSU, or > > even just the regulator board. I think the US and UK actually have the > > same PSU as my UK version has 2 x 110 Volt primaries strapped in series. . > > > > Dave Wade > > > > G4UGM > > Happen to know if it's the same PSU as the TR-20? (MARCH has the -20 and a > decent set of documentation.) Thanks for the pointers Evan, On checking in the net I have now found a TR-20 maintenance manual. The TR-10 PSU doesn't have the test points, but otherwise I think it's the same. It certainly produces the same voltages. There is also a reference voltage generator, which sits next to the PSU which is identical to the TR-20. So I have now checked my PSU and the reference voltages and they are correct. It looks like I had a faulty DVM, rather than the PSU being faulty. I popped it on a 9V battery and got 12Volts which can't be right. Having sorted that out I have now started checking the modules. Out of 8 amplifier modules only two seem to work correctly, but as each module contains 2 amplifiers that's enough to get started with. Given that I don't have a module where one works and one doesn't I am inclined to blame the chopper relay as that is the only common component. I think the next step might be to swap the chopper relays between a duff and a working board and see if that helps, but to be honest despite reading several articles on it, I still don't understand how a chopper stabilizer works.. Dave G4UGM From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 14 13:05:27 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 11:05:27 -0800 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <001201d00020$10bdc4d0$32394e70$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001cfffc3$5ec6b4a0$1c541de0$@classiccmp.org> <546619BA.6090200@sbcglobal.net> <001201d00020$10bdc4d0$32394e70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54665277.6020908@jwsss.com> I have been getting emails sent to me from the list by people who are getting my reply to. I send my email out to an ISP mail server for outbound here at my house (TWC ISP) So to get stuff back at my preferred email address, I have thunderbird and any other configured email client set to add a "reply-to" to my actual mail domain email, not back to TWC. In fact I don't know if someone can find my TWC email address from an email. Anyway, I have always gotten various emails on my google account which for some reason fail a rule to have either cctalk or cctech in the from field. And now I'm getting emails for the list directly to my return-to email address, which is whitelisted. I suspect this email is showing up in the archived emails too, but have not checked the site to see what is there in the archives. I'd prefer not to have my return-to header on any archive site for obvious reasons. Maybe all emails are obfuscated there, have not looked. Anyway, thought I'd throw that out there while there are eyes on the problem. I don't know if Jay or Lawrence (who I know moderates) is who to send an email to for examination / tracing, or if that is not a problem you guys will bother to work on. It only annoys me because I do whitelisting rather than spam filtering, and am not anxious to have whitelist addresses get out when I can help it. Thanks as always. Jim On 11/14/2014 7:31 AM, Jay West wrote: > No, epic fail. > > Separately, I can't figure out for the life of me how some posts are getting > a cc to "general at classiccmp.org" which does not exist. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > Woyciesjes > Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 9:03 AM > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Subject: Re: test > > On 11/13/2014 11:27 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Sorry, testing myself. >> > Did you pass? > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 14 13:23:20 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 11:23:20 -0800 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <54665277.6020908@jwsss.com> References: <000001cfffc3$5ec6b4a0$1c541de0$@classiccmp.org> <546619BA.6090200@sbcglobal.net> <001201d00020$10bdc4d0$32394e70$@classiccmp.org> <54665277.6020908@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <546656A8.7030800@bitsavers.org> On 11/14/14 11:05 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > Maybe all emails are obfuscated there, have not looked. > They are not obfuscated, nor are they on archive.org's copy ie. https://web.archive.org/web/20141004023141/http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2014-April/112685.html so we're screwed. From roeapeterson at gmail.com Fri Nov 14 17:58:54 2014 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 17:58:54 -0600 Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout Message-ID: Can anyone point me at the pinouts for the KDJ11-E pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 connectors for the extra 7 (simulated) DL11s? Thanks. From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 14 18:07:29 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 18:07:29 -0600 Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? Message-ID: Decided to take a good shot at putting my only S-100 serial board to use. Figured the place to start was ID'ing the connector pin-outs so I could set up a cable and begin the process. Lacking any docs whatsoever, all I could do was trace out the PCB and try to ascertain what was what. So here's what I've come up with - can +you+ figure out which pin is which? Board has two outputs, J1 & J2. They are standard 10-pin DIP headers, using the standard numbering scheme. We'll look at J1; J2 is essentially the same, but routes to different pins / chips / transistors. Pin 1 - Col. of 2N3906 (Base is driven by opt. 2 of 1458 - see Pin 7) Pin 2 - Pin 28 (DB3) of both 1014 & 1015 UARTs Pin 3 - 1K pull-up to Vcc (12V? Same Vcc as 1458s) Pin 4 - 150R -> 47R -> Pin 6 w/ XNOR input 1A at 150/47 junction Pin 5 - n/c Pin 6 - 47R -> 150R -> Pin 4 w/ XNOR input 1A at 150/47 junction Pin 7 - 1K2 -> opt. 2 of 1458 (see Pin 1) Pin 8 - GND Pin 9 - 1458 opt. 1 Pin 10 - GND So we have what looks like three (3) each Inputs & Outputs, plus a Vcc and GNDs: Inputs - Pin 2, 4, 6 Outputs - Pin 1, 7, 9 Vcc - Pin 3 Gnd - Pin 8, 10 So.. what do +you+ make of it? =) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 14 19:19:19 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 20:19:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout Message-ID: <20141115011919.E500A18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Roe Peterson > Can anyone point me at the pinouts for the KDJ11-E pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 > connectors for the extra 7 (simulated) DL11s? Alas, documentation on the 11/93-94 seems to be very scarce on the ground. (And, just for grins, the page in the 11/94 User Guide which has the section - 1.2.6 - which talks, however briefly, about that panel - pg. 1-4 - is missing from all the online copies of that manual which I checked.) The only thing I can suggest is that if you actually have the cable, the pinout on the board is given in the KDJ11-E User's Guide (EK-KDJ1E-UG-001, available online), on pg. 88-91 (aka 2-13 to 2-16), and an ohm-meter and some time will give you the pinout of one of the DB9's - presumably they are all the same, from there. Noel From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 14 19:59:01 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 19:59:01 -0600 Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout In-Reply-To: <20141115011919.E500A18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141115011919.E500A18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Wow.. On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 7:19 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Roe Peterson > > > Can anyone point me at the pinouts for the KDJ11-E pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 > > connectors for the extra 7 (simulated) DL11s? > > Alas, documentation on the 11/93-94 seems to be very scarce on the ground. > (And, just for grins, the page in the 11/94 User Guide which has the > section - > 1.2.6 - which talks, however briefly, about that panel - pg. 1-4 - is > missing > from all the online copies of that manual which I checked.) Man, this is like deja-vu all over again.. at least I don't feel like I'm the only one in serial-pinout confusionland. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Nov 14 21:27:35 2014 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 19:27:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking pdp-11/40, 45, 50, 55, or 70 front panel bezel Message-ID: I have a pdp-11/70 front panel, but no bezel. Does anyone here have one? I understand that the 11/40, 11/45, 11/50, 11/55, and 11/70 had identical bezels. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Nov 15 02:35:26 2014 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 09:35:26 +0100 Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout In-Reply-To: <20141115011919.E500A18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141115011919.E500A18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2014 2:19 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout > From: Roe Peterson > Can anyone point me at the pinouts for the KDJ11-E pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 > connectors for the extra 7 (simulated) DL11s? Alas, documentation on the 11/93-94 seems to be very scarce on the ground. (And, just for grins, the page in the 11/94 User Guide which has the section - 1.2.6 - which talks, however briefly, about that panel - pg. 1-4 - is missing from all the online copies of that manual which I checked.) The only thing I can suggest is that if you actually have the cable, the pinout on the board is given in the KDJ11-E User's Guide (EK-KDJ1E-UG-001, available online), on pg. 88-91 (aka 2-13 to 2-16), and an ohm-meter and some time will give you the pinout of one of the DB9's - presumably they are all the same, from there. Noel --- I have that manual, I am not sure whether it is missing page 1-4. I will check. If I have that page, I will scan it and email it to Al. Jjust a few months ago, I wanted to connect a VT510 to the console port. All connectors are DE-9, and I *assume* that they all have the same pinout. What worked for me is the "VAX console cable", in other words: that DE-9 connectors is NOT "PC alike"! You can find the VAX console cable pinout on the web. You only need to wire RXD, TX and GND. http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/panels.htm - Henk, PA8PDP From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 15 05:43:50 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 06:43:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout Message-ID: <20141115114350.CCE9618C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Henk Gooijen > I wanted to connect a VT510 to the console port. All connectors are > DE-9 Really? The PDP-11/94-E User Guide (EK-PDP94-MG-001), available online in a number of places, shows (pg 46, aka 2-18) the Console/SLU panel, and the Console connector is much larger than the SLU connectors. (The illustration shows a 23-pin D-type connector - presumably an error, it should have been 25.) And here: http://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-93/rear-panel-small.jpg is a picture of one, and it indeed has the 25-pin console connector. Although I suppose it's possible they changed the actual hardware at some point, and some real machines have a 9-pin D-type? Or maybe a VAX of some sort uses a similar panel, but with all 9-pin D-types, and someone had stuck on of those on that machine? > What worked for me is the "VAX console cable", in other words: that > DE-9 connectors is NOT "PC alike"! You can find the VAX console cable > pinout on the web. Good catch! It makes sense that the VAX and 11/93-94 use the same 9-pin D-type pinout; that way they'd only have to have one kind of cable. Noel From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Nov 15 08:55:54 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 08:55:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout In-Reply-To: <20141115114350.CCE9618C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141115114350.CCE9618C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Nov 2014, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Henk Gooijen > >> I wanted to connect a VT510 to the console port. All connectors are >> DE-9 > > Really? The PDP-11/94-E User Guide (EK-PDP94-MG-001), available online > in a number of places, shows (pg 46, aka 2-18) the Console/SLU panel, > and the Console connector is much larger than the SLU connectors. (The > illustration shows a 23-pin D-type connector - presumably an error, it > should have been 25.) And here: > > http://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-93/rear-panel-small.jpg > > is a picture of one, and it indeed has the 25-pin console connector. > > Although I suppose it's possible they changed the actual hardware at > some point, and some real machines have a 9-pin D-type? Or maybe a VAX > of some sort uses a similar panel, but with all 9-pin D-types, and > someone had stuck on of those on that machine? > >> What worked for me is the "VAX console cable", in other words: that >> DE-9 connectors is NOT "PC alike"! You can find the VAX console cable >> pinout on the web. > > Good catch! It makes sense that the VAX and 11/93-94 use the same 9-pin > D-type pinout; that way they'd only have to have one kind of cable. If that's the case, then one could also use a H8571-B adapter with a MMJ cable to connect the terminal. One thing to watch out for with the H8571-B adapters though is that they are thicker than most of the other DB25 and DE9 adapters such as the H8571-J, H8575-A, etc so you'd need the ports further apart than typical if you wanted to use multiple adapters side-by-side. The H8571-B I had laying on the desk is about 7/8" thick at the MMJ connector and tapers down in an L-shape to about 5/8" thick at the DE9 end. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Nov 15 09:10:51 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 09:10:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Nov 2014, drlegendre . wrote: > Decided to take a good shot at putting my only S-100 serial board to > use. Figured the place to start was ID'ing the connector pin-outs so I > could set up a cable and begin the process. > > Lacking any docs whatsoever, all I could do was trace out the PCB and > try to ascertain what was what. So here's what I've come up with - can > +you+ figure out which pin is which? > > Board has two outputs, J1 & J2. They are standard 10-pin DIP headers, > using the standard numbering scheme. We'll look at J1; J2 is essentially > the same, but routes to different pins / chips / transistors. > > Pin 1 - Col. of 2N3906 (Base is driven by opt. 2 of 1458 - see Pin 7) > Pin 2 - Pin 28 (DB3) of both 1014 & 1015 UARTs > Pin 3 - 1K pull-up to Vcc (12V? Same Vcc as 1458s) > Pin 4 - 150R -> 47R -> Pin 6 w/ XNOR input 1A at 150/47 junction > Pin 5 - n/c > Pin 6 - 47R -> 150R -> Pin 4 w/ XNOR input 1A at 150/47 junction > Pin 7 - 1K2 -> opt. 2 of 1458 (see Pin 1) > Pin 8 - GND > Pin 9 - 1458 opt. 1 > Pin 10 - GND > > So we have what looks like three (3) each Inputs & Outputs, plus a Vcc > and GNDs: > > Inputs - Pin 2, 4, 6 > Outputs - Pin 1, 7, 9 > Vcc - Pin 3 > Gnd - Pin 8, 10 > > So.. what do +you+ make of it? =) Standard numbering scheme? Surely you jest? ;) Do you mean something like this? 2 4 6 8 10 . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 5 7 9 It sounds like you've just about got it figured out though. If you have the datasheet for the 1458 (aren't there 1459s on the board too?) then you can follow the signals through the level converters back to the UART, and its datasheet should then tell you exactly which signals are which. It makes sense that pin 10 would be an extra ground too, since it is quite possible they originally used a 9-conductor ribbon cable and wouldn't have connected that pin. You may also find than the signals come out on the correct pins of a DE9 connected to a 10-pin IDS connector with some 9-conductor ribbon cable. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 09:53:50 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 09:53:50 -0600 Subject: XT keyboards (and missing decal) Message-ID: <5467770E.3060205@gmail.com> Hi all, I've got a 5160 here with the XT keyboard - however it's got the 64/256K motherboard fitted (with the "early" Jan '86 EPROMs), and Wikipedia seems to claim that by the time the 64/256K boards came out the machines were shipped with 102-key keyboards (the XT flavor of the Model M, I assume). Anyone know if that's true, and so my system should technically have a "full size" keyboard, or was there a crossover period where systems with the newer boards shipped with the 83-key XT keyboards? Everything else about the machine suggests it was built sometime '86 (dates on the PSU, IC date codes on the expansion boards etc.), although it has a 20MB F/H IBM hard drive (rather than the H/H Seagates that I think the newer systems got). There's no ID info on the underside of the keyboard like there is on my Model M; I'm not sure if there should be. Also, I'm missing the silver keyboard decal - I believe these just said "IBM personal computer" like they did for the 5150, even though the 5160 case decal mentions XT. Does anyone have one they could pull from an otherwise-junk keyboard that they might be willing to part with? cheers Jules From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Nov 15 11:15:04 2014 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 18:15:04 +0100 Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout In-Reply-To: References: <20141115114350.CCE9618C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Tothwolf Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2014 3:55 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout On Sat, 15 Nov 2014, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Henk Gooijen > >> I wanted to connect a VT510 to the console port. All connectors are >> DE-9 > > Really? The PDP-11/94-E User Guide (EK-PDP94-MG-001), available online > in a number of places, shows (pg 46, aka 2-18) the Console/SLU panel, > and the Console connector is much larger than the SLU connectors. (The > illustration shows a 23-pin D-type connector - presumably an error, it > should have been 25.) And here: > > http://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-93/rear-panel-small.jpg > > is a picture of one, and it indeed has the 25-pin console connector. > > Although I suppose it's possible they changed the actual hardware at > some point, and some real machines have a 9-pin D-type? Or maybe a VAX > of some sort uses a similar panel, but with all 9-pin D-types, and > someone had stuck on of those on that machine? > >> What worked for me is the "VAX console cable", in other words: that >> DE-9 connectors is NOT "PC alike"! You can find the VAX console cable >> pinout on the web. > > Good catch! It makes sense that the VAX and 11/93-94 use the same 9-pin > D-type pinout; that way they'd only have to have one kind of cable. If that's the case, then one could also use a H8571-B adapter with a MMJ cable to connect the terminal. One thing to watch out for with the H8571-B adapters though is that they are thicker than most of the other DB25 and DE9 adapters such as the H8571-J, H8575-A, etc so you'd need the ports further apart than typical if you wanted to use multiple adapters side-by-side. The H8571-B I had laying on the desk is about 7/8" thick at the MMJ connector and tapers down in an L-shape to about 5/8" thick at the DE9 end. --- Oops, major mistake. You are correct, the console *IS* DB-25! Bad memory, old age, who will tell? But what I remember for 100% is that it is not as a PC! I am going to the "hangar" this week, take the console cable so that I can measure the connected pins and report back here. apologies, - Henk, PA8PDP From pinball at telus.net Sat Nov 15 11:20:17 2014 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 09:20:17 -0800 Subject: XT keyboards (and missing decal) In-Reply-To: <5467770E.3060205@gmail.com> References: <5467770E.3060205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54678B51.40603@telus.net> On 11/15/2014, 7:53 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Hi all, > > ... > > Everything else about the machine suggests it was built sometime '86 > (dates on the PSU, IC date codes on the expansion boards etc.), ... > > cheers > > Jules > For dating computers (or any logic boards) I suggest looking at the date codes on soldered in devices - anything else could have been exchanged, replaced, updated... John :-#)# From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 15 13:05:20 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 11:05:20 -0800 Subject: XT keyboards (and missing decal) In-Reply-To: <5467770E.3060205@gmail.com> References: <5467770E.3060205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5467A3F0.1050808@sydex.com> On 11/15/2014 07:53 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Also, I'm missing the silver keyboard decal - I believe these just said > "IBM personal computer" like they did for the 5150, even though the 5160 > case decal mentions XT. Does anyone have one they could pull from an > otherwise-junk keyboard that they might be willing to part with? It's quite possible that the keyboard wasn't IBM-produced either. There were plenty of Taiwanese clones with recesses of precisely the dimensions to fit the IBM logo. Is there no label on the back of the keyboard that gives the IBM part number and manufacture date? --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 13:31:31 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 13:31:31 -0600 Subject: XT keyboards (and missing decal) In-Reply-To: <5467A3F0.1050808@sydex.com> References: <5467770E.3060205@gmail.com> <5467A3F0.1050808@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5467AA13.1000908@gmail.com> On 11/15/2014 01:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/15/2014 07:53 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Also, I'm missing the silver keyboard decal - I believe these just said >> "IBM personal computer" like they did for the 5150, even though the 5160 >> case decal mentions XT. Does anyone have one they could pull from an >> otherwise-junk keyboard that they might be willing to part with? > > It's quite possible that the keyboard wasn't IBM-produced either. There > were plenty of Taiwanese clones with recesses of precisely the dimensions > to fit the IBM logo. Is there no label on the back of the keyboard that > gives the IBM part number and manufacture date? Interesting - I know there were crappy clones around which weren't as heavy-duty, but I don't recall seeing any with the buckling-spring mechanism (which doesn't mean to say that they didn't exist, of course!) Anyway no, there are no external markings. However, I just opened the case and the guts are labeled as IBM. It's got a "shop date" of 5025, whatever that translates to. The main keyboard IC is marked: 8493518 LC 862092 A 8421 C K CP5092 The "8421" is quite possibly a date code; the 14-pin IC next to the controller IC has a date code of 8427. That's a couple of years older than the rest of the machine - but having said that, there are ICs that old in the main system too, mixed in with ones from '85 and '86, so it's perhaps not a definitive answer. Interestingly (well, perhaps to us geeks, anyway) the internal label claims that it's a Model F - which goes against what Wikipedia claims (i.e. that the Model F was the 84-key AT keyboard, replacing the 83-key XT unit) cheers Jules From jws at jwsss.com Sat Nov 15 13:32:31 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 11:32:31 -0800 Subject: XT keyboards (and missing decal) In-Reply-To: <5467A3F0.1050808@sydex.com> References: <5467770E.3060205@gmail.com> <5467A3F0.1050808@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5467AA4F.8090704@jwsss.com> On 11/15/2014 11:05 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/15/2014 07:53 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Also, I'm missing the silver keyboard decal - I believe these just said >> "IBM personal computer" like they did for the 5150, even though the 5160 >> case decal mentions XT. Does anyone have one they could pull from an >> otherwise-junk keyboard that they might be willing to part with? > > It's quite possible that the keyboard wasn't IBM-produced either. > There were plenty of Taiwanese clones with recesses of precisely the > dimensions to fit the IBM logo. Is there no label on the back of the > keyboard that gives the IBM part number and manufacture date? > > --Chuck > > > Is it possible that it is a de-badged 3270PC or one of the 4000 product lines? They also used the XT for making up foreign terminals, such as Katakana or Hangul, but I'm not sure if they did it before they repackaged and came out with the PS2 50 and PS2 30 systems. We got a Korean terminal like that. Pry of some stickers, and reload the software, and you would get a regular looking PC. And of course replace the keyboard or keycaps. Jim From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 13:49:25 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 13:49:25 -0600 Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Standard numbering scheme? Surely you jest? ;) > > Do you mean something like this? > > 2 4 6 8 10 > . . . . . > . . . . . > 1 3 5 7 9 > No joke, you got it right. That's the standard scheme for IDS (I said DIP, which is the wrong term I think) headers.. across-and-back, as you wrote it. > > It sounds like you've just about got it figured out though. If you have > the datasheet for the 1458 (aren't there 1459s on the board too?) then you > can follow the signals through the level converters back to the UART, and > its datasheet should then tell you exactly which signals are which. > Don't see any 1459s on there, just the pair of 1458s up near the IDS I/O headers But yes, you have a point.. I could probably have continued, tracing back from the 1458 inputs, through the various logic gates, to the 1014 / 1015 UARTs. But I stopped where I did as it was already pretty tedious and I figured I had enough info for you in-the-know types to figure it out at a glance.. ;-) That, and I am confused by a couple of my findings, particularly the Pin 4 - Pin 6 relationship. Why are these pins essentially common to each other, and to the XNOR inputs? One pin has a 47R in series to the XNOR gate, the other has a 150R in series to that same gate. It's as if the line with the 150R could be asserted 'high' by some line and then the line with the 47R could re-assert it 'low' - but not all the way to zero, more like to 1/3 of voltage. See, that makes no sense to me,. Ditto for the Pin 1 / Pin 7 relationship. Both of these pins are essentially outputs from the same op-amp output - one is basically a direct-out from the op-amp #2, the other is via the collector of a PNP (3906) transistor - the base of which is also tied to op-amp output #2. This is the stuff that's really confusing me.. is the 3906 acting as an inverter? If so, why? To be clear, J1 (10-pin I/O header) has two pins (4 & 6) both tied to the selfsame +input+ point, and two pins (1 & 7) tied to the selfsame +output+ point. J2 is identical, but it uses a different op-amp and a different XNOR input. Otherwise, J1 and J2 are carbon-copies of each other, electronically speaking. > > It makes sense that pin 10 would be an extra ground too, since it is quite > possible they originally used a 9-conductor ribbon cable and wouldn't have > connected that pin. You may also find than the signals come out on the > correct pins of a DE9 connected to a 10-pin IDS connector with some > 9-conductor ribbon cable. > Or to a 25-pin version of the same. Sure wish I had one! But I tossed / gave all that away years ago, I think.. =/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 15 13:49:37 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 19:49:37 +0000 Subject: XT keyboards (and missing decal) In-Reply-To: <5467770E.3060205@gmail.com> References: <5467770E.3060205@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I've got a 5160 here with the XT keyboard - however it's got the 64/256K > motherboard fitted (with the "early" Jan '86 EPROMs), and Wikipedia seems > to claim that by the time the 64/256K boards came out the machines were > shipped with 102-key keyboards (the XT flavor of the Model M, I assume). > Anyone know if that's true, and so my system should technically have a > "full size" keyboard, or was there a crossover period where systems with > the newer boards shipped with the 83-key XT keyboards? I thought the 64K-256K board was the older XT one, the later version being 256-640K (it's the same board with the '158 mux chip added and a link soldered in, just like the well-known upgrade). Anyway, all the XT's I've seen had the 64K-256K board and the 83 key keyboard (or is it 84 key over here, the smaller one, anyway). And they just say 'personal computer' on the decal. -tony From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 13:52:41 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 13:52:41 -0600 Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, and to add to my confusion.. I've read that the early Altair serial boards used a 20mA current-loop transmission standard.. which as far as I know, is +not+ standard RS-232 stuff. So should I actually expect this board to be a standard RS-232 device, or is it something else.? On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 1:49 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Howdy, > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> >>> Standard numbering scheme? Surely you jest? ;) >> >> Do you mean something like this? >> >> 2 4 6 8 10 >> . . . . . >> . . . . . >> 1 3 5 7 9 >> > > No joke, you got it right. That's the standard scheme for IDS (I said DIP, > which is the wrong term I think) headers.. across-and-back, as you wrote > it. > >> >> It sounds like you've just about got it figured out though. If you have >> the datasheet for the 1458 (aren't there 1459s on the board too?) then you >> can follow the signals through the level converters back to the UART, and >> its datasheet should then tell you exactly which signals are which. >> > > Don't see any 1459s on there, just the pair of 1458s up near the IDS I/O > headers > > But yes, you have a point.. I could probably have continued, tracing back > from the 1458 inputs, through the various logic gates, to the 1014 / 1015 > UARTs. But I stopped where I did as it was already pretty tedious and I > figured I had enough info for you in-the-know types to figure it out at a > glance.. ;-) > > That, and I am confused by a couple of my findings, particularly the Pin 4 > - Pin 6 relationship. Why are these pins essentially common to each other, > and to the XNOR inputs? One pin has a 47R in series to the XNOR gate, the > other has a 150R in series to that same gate. It's as if the line with the > 150R could be asserted 'high' by some line and then the line with the 47R > could re-assert it 'low' - but not all the way to zero, more like to 1/3 of > voltage. See, that makes no sense to me,. > > Ditto for the Pin 1 / Pin 7 relationship. Both of these pins are > essentially outputs from the same op-amp output - one is basically a > direct-out from the op-amp #2, the other is via the collector of a PNP > (3906) transistor - the base of which is also tied to op-amp output #2. > This is the stuff that's really confusing me.. is the 3906 acting as an > inverter? If so, why? > > To be clear, J1 (10-pin I/O header) has two pins (4 & 6) both tied to the > selfsame +input+ point, and two pins (1 & 7) tied to the selfsame +output+ > point. J2 is identical, but it uses a different op-amp and a different XNOR > input. Otherwise, J1 and J2 are carbon-copies of each other, electronically > speaking. > >> >> It makes sense that pin 10 would be an extra ground too, since it is >> quite possible they originally used a 9-conductor ribbon cable and wouldn't >> have connected that pin. You may also find than the signals come out on the >> correct pins of a DE9 connected to a 10-pin IDS connector with some >> 9-conductor ribbon cable. >> > > Or to a 25-pin version of the same. Sure wish I had one! But I tossed / > gave all that away years ago, I think.. =/ > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 15 13:56:54 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 19:56:54 +0000 Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Decided to take a good shot at putting my only S-100 serial board to use. > Figured the place to start was ID'ing the connector pin-outs so I could set > up a cable and begin the process. > > Lacking any docs whatsoever, all I could do was trace out the PCB and try > to ascertain what was what. So here's what I've come up with - can +you+ > figure out which pin is which? > > Board has two outputs, J1 & J2. They are standard 10-pin DIP headers, using > the standard numbering scheme. We'll look at J1; J2 is essentially the > same, but routes to different pins / chips / transistors. > > Pin 1 - Col. of 2N3906 (Base is driven by opt. 2 of 1458 - see Pin 7) > Pin 2 - Pin 28 (DB3) of both 1014 & 1015 UARTs > Pin 3 - 1K pull-up to Vcc (12V? Same Vcc as 1458s) > Pin 4 - 150R -> 47R -> Pin 6 w/ XNOR input 1A at 150/47 junction > Pin 5 - n/c > Pin 6 - 47R -> 150R -> Pin 4 w/ XNOR input 1A at 150/47 junction > Pin 7 - 1K2 -> opt. 2 of 1458 (see Pin 1) > Pin 8 - GND > Pin 9 - 1458 opt. 1 > Pin 10 - GND > So we have what looks like three (3) each Inputs & Outputs, plus a Vcc and > GNDs: > > Inputs - Pin 2, 4, 6 > Outputs - Pin 1, 7, 9 > Vcc - Pin 3 > Gnd - Pin 8, 10 > > So.. what do +you+ make of it? =) Well... First oddity is pin 2? What on earth is that for? Why bring out one data line with no enables, strobes, etc? Are you sure about this? Now, the 1458 is a dual op-amp. It was commonly used in old serial devices as a level shifter. My guess is that pin 7 is an RS232-like voltage output, serial data. Pin i is a current loop output, same data. The receive input has me stumped at this point. I would guess it's pins 4 and 6. Again possibly current loop. I would trace out all the circuitry in that area. It is probably possible to connect it for RS232 input, but no idea how without the complete circuit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 15 13:58:51 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 19:58:51 +0000 Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > It sounds like you've just about got it figured out though. If you have > the datasheet for the 1458 (aren't there 1459s on the board too?) then you > can follow the signals through the level converters back to the UART, and > its datasheet should then tell you exactly which signals are which. Are you not thinking of the 1488 and 1489 (commonly used RS232 driver and receiver chips)? The 1458 is a dual op-amp. Op amps were often used as level shifters in older RS232 devices. I guess that's what is happening here. -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 14:03:44 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 12:03:44 -0800 Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Roe Peterson wrote: > Can anyone point me at the pinouts for the KDJ11-E pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 connectors for the extra 7 (simulated) DL11s? > I just took a look at a 70-27975-01 11/93 SLU panel that I have and these are the pinouts that I found. SLU 1 - SLU 7 - DB9 Pin 1 - Chassis Ground Pin 2 - SLU Output / Transmit Data Pin 3 - SLU Input / Receive Data+ Pin 7 - Signal Ground All other pins No Connection Console - DB25 Pin 1 - Chassis Ground Pin 2 - SLU Output / Transmit Data Pin 3 - SLU Input / Receive Data+ Pin 4 - connected to Pin 6 Pin 6 - connected to Pin 4 Pin 7 - Signal Ground Pin 20 - +12V Fused (through a 750 ohm series resistor) All other pins No Connection All of the Receive Data- signals (J1-7, J1-17, J1-27, J1-37, J2-27, J2-37, J2-47, J2-57) are connected to Signal Ground. There is a P6KE15CA TransZorb transient voltage suppressor between each TD and RD+ signal and Signal Ground, plus another one between Signal Ground and Chassis Ground (17 of those total). From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Nov 15 14:12:21 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 12:12:21 -0800 Subject: Kearney & Trecker Core memory, may be PDP8 In-Reply-To: <5463C35F.9050305@jwsss.com> References: <5462B8FD.1030609@jwsss.com> <5462CD53.8090509@pico-systems.com> <5462D16B.3030402@update.uu.se> <5462EC26.90405@pico-systems.com> <54638022.8080503@update.uu.se> <5463C35F.9050305@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5467B3A5.1060409@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-12 12:30, jwsmobile wrote: > > On 11/12/2014 7:43 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2014-11-12 06:12, Jon Elson wrote: >>> On 11/11/2014 09:18 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> On 2014-11-12 04:00, Jon Elson wrote: >>>>> On 11/11/2014 07:33 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>>>>> I can't tell for sure, but this auction may be for PDP8 core board. >>>>>> >>>>>> KT-KEARNEY-TRECKER-ASSY-KT83-0933-KT84-020-SYSTEM-BOARD >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181565552717 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> The fact that the board have four edge connectors and not six totally >>>> excludes PDP-11. >>> The first and last picture of the ebay listing above clearly has SIX >>> edge connectors. >> >> Doh. I was mixing up different images from different listings. Sorry. >> >>> And, in fact, a number of PDP-11 peripheral boards had only 4 >>> connectors. >>> CPU boards and memory did usually have 6. >> >> There were definitely quad height boards, but I don't think I ever saw >> a PDP-11 board that was hex height with only four edge connectors. But >> I'm sure you will point me to one now. :-) >> >> Johnny >> >> > I never said the boards with 4 connectors which appear to be hex high > were anything to do with Dec, other than they were replacement boards of > some sort. I was sort of hoping they might be Harris 6100 boards and 12 > bit, but as Al K pointed out the processor chip is probably Motorola > which rules that out. > > If you zoom in you will notice that none of these boards seem to have > flipchip connector. I have not squinted to see if they might fit > without the keying feature on the board as well. Dec was very > protective of that and sued or hassled anyone who used that form factor > or edge card arrangement, and these guys may have kept the form factor > for card cage physical handling and used other connectors. I've not > seen much other than this one vendors boards. Uh? They are definitely flip chip connectors. No need to even squint. Just magnify the pictures. > I guess they didn't need the count of connections and dropped two > connectors for cost. Well, it all depends on if there were anything to connect to on those places, and if any needed signals were located there. Johnny From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 14:42:56 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 14:42:56 -0600 Subject: XT keyboards (and missing decal) In-Reply-To: References: <5467770E.3060205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5467BAD0.3060204@gmail.com> On 11/15/2014 01:49 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> I've got a 5160 here with the XT keyboard - however it's got the 64/256K >> motherboard fitted (with the "early" Jan '86 EPROMs), and Wikipedia seems >> to claim that by the time the 64/256K boards came out the machines were >> shipped with 102-key keyboards (the XT flavor of the Model M, I assume). >> Anyone know if that's true, and so my system should technically have a >> "full size" keyboard, or was there a crossover period where systems with >> the newer boards shipped with the 83-key XT keyboards? > > I thought the 64K-256K board was the older XT one, the later version being 256-640K > (it's the same board with the '158 mux chip added and a link soldered in, just like the > well-known upgrade). Well spotted - darn it! I *meant* 256/640K board :-( I wrote that message over the course of two days while doing a hundred other things, and kept coming back to re-word it. cheers Jules From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Nov 15 14:56:05 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 12:56:05 -0800 Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout In-Reply-To: <20141115011919.E500A18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141115011919.E500A18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5467BDE5.4080607@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-14 17:19, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Roe Peterson > > > Can anyone point me at the pinouts for the KDJ11-E pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 > > connectors for the extra 7 (simulated) DL11s? > > Alas, documentation on the 11/93-94 seems to be very scarce on the ground. > (And, just for grins, the page in the 11/94 User Guide which has the section - > 1.2.6 - which talks, however briefly, about that panel - pg. 1-4 - is missing > from all the online copies of that manual which I checked.) > > The only thing I can suggest is that if you actually have the cable, the > pinout on the board is given in the KDJ11-E User's Guide (EK-KDJ1E-UG-001, > available online), on pg. 88-91 (aka 2-13 to 2-16), and an ohm-meter and some > time will give you the pinout of one of the DB9's - presumably they are all > the same, from there. PDP-11/9x manuals are not scarce at all. Where do you people search??? 11/93: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1193/EK-KDJ1E-UG-001_KDJ11-E_CPU_Module_Users_Guide_Jan91.pdf 11/94: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1194/EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf There you have all the pinouts of connectors and everything you could need. Oh, and the 9-pin serial ports (all but the console) have 2,3 and Rx/Tx and 7 i Gnd. Just like in the 25-pin connector. :-) Johnny From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 15:00:25 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 13:00:25 -0800 Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout In-Reply-To: <5467BDE5.4080607@update.uu.se> References: <20141115011919.E500A18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5467BDE5.4080607@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2014 12:56 PM, "Johnny Billquist" wrote: > > PDP-11/9x manuals are not scarce at all. Where do you people search??? > > 11/93: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1193/EK-KDJ1E-UG-001_KDJ11-E_CPU_Module_Users_Guide_Jan91.pdf > 11/94: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1194/EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf > > There you have all the pinouts of connectors and everything you could need. > Exactly where in either of those two manuals are the pinouts of the 9-pin and 25-pin connectors on the SLU bulkhead panel given? From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Nov 15 15:00:29 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 15:00:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Nov 2014, tony duell wrote: >> It sounds like you've just about got it figured out though. If you have >> the datasheet for the 1458 (aren't there 1459s on the board too?) then >> you can follow the signals through the level converters back to the >> UART, and its datasheet should then tell you exactly which signals are >> which. > > Are you not thinking of the 1488 and 1489 (commonly used RS232 driver > and receiver chips)? The 1458 is a dual op-amp. > > Op amps were often used as level shifters in older RS232 devices. I > guess that's what is happening here. Yup, I was thinking 1488 and 1489. I guess there wouldn't be a 1489 on there if they were using a 1458 as a level converter. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 15 15:02:42 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 13:02:42 -0800 Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5467BF72.5070405@sydex.com> On 11/15/2014 11:52 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > Oh, and to add to my confusion.. I've read that the early Altair serial > boards used a 20mA current-loop transmission standard.. which as far as I > know, is +not+ standard RS-232 stuff. So should I actually expect this > board to be a standard RS-232 device, or is it something else.? I have an Altair SIO-1 board. Yes, it can drive a TTY, but that's just an option. I used it in RS232C mode. One serial port on an S100 board--waste of space. If memory serves, the only terminal MITS originally sold for the Altair was an ASR-33 TTY, so the current-loop interface was important. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 15:18:07 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 15:18:07 -0600 Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5467C30F.5070309@gmail.com> On 11/15/2014 01:52 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Oh, and to add to my confusion.. I've read that the early Altair serial > boards used a 20mA current-loop transmission standard.. which as far as I > know, is +not+ standard RS-232 stuff. So should I actually expect this > board to be a standard RS-232 device, or is it something else.? Are you even sure that it's intended as a terminal board, rather than for some other peripheral that happens to be serial in nature? From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Nov 15 15:26:46 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 13:26:46 -0800 Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout In-Reply-To: References: <20141115011919.E500A18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5467C516.6000205@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-14 17:59, drlegendre . wrote: > Wow.. > > On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 7:19 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> > From: Roe Peterson >> >> > Can anyone point me at the pinouts for the KDJ11-E pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 >> > connectors for the extra 7 (simulated) DL11s? >> >> Alas, documentation on the 11/93-94 seems to be very scarce on the ground. >> (And, just for grins, the page in the 11/94 User Guide which has the >> section - >> 1.2.6 - which talks, however briefly, about that panel - pg. 1-4 - is >> missing >> from all the online copies of that manual which I checked.) > > > Man, this is like deja-vu all over again.. at least I don't feel like I'm > the only one in serial-pinout confusionland. Hmm. Interestingly enough I just searched through both the 11/93 and 11/94 manuals, which I referred to before, and neither actually seems to have the pinouts for the serial ports. Oh well. The console is on a DB25, with a very standard RS-232. I hope everyone can manage to get that one right. For the DE9 connectors, they actually also follow the RS-232 standard. For a connector without the modem control, all pins are in the first 9 anyway, so no problem. If you want full modem control, there is one signal - DCD I think, which is on pin 20 in the RS-232 spec. On the DEC DE9, I think that one was moved to pin 8. But someone should check that out, in case they actually want full modem control. Johnny From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Nov 15 15:27:06 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 15:27:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Nov 2014, drlegendre . wrote: > On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Standard numbering scheme? Surely you jest? ;) >> >> Do you mean something like this? >> >> 2 4 6 8 10 >> . . . . . >> . . . . . >> 1 3 5 7 9 > > No joke, you got it right. That's the standard scheme for IDS (I said > DIP, which is the wrong term I think) headers.. across-and-back, as you > wrote it. I've seen pins labeled all sorts of ways, even though that across-and-back really does seem to be the correct way to label them. >> It sounds like you've just about got it figured out though. If you have >> the datasheet for the 1458 (aren't there 1459s on the board too?) then >> you can follow the signals through the level converters back to the >> UART, and its datasheet should then tell you exactly which signals are >> which. > > Don't see any 1459s on there, just the pair of 1458s up near the IDS I/O > headers As Tony pointed out, I was thinking 1488/1489, so disregard that. > But yes, you have a point.. I could probably have continued, tracing > back from the 1458 inputs, through the various logic gates, to the 1014 > / 1015 UARTs. But I stopped where I did as it was already pretty > tedious and I figured I had enough info for you in-the-know types to > figure it out at a glance.. ;-) I dunno, it is getting beyond what I can figure out without the board in front of me to trace out too. > That, and I am confused by a couple of my findings, particularly the Pin > 4 - Pin 6 relationship. Why are these pins essentially common to each > other, and to the XNOR inputs? One pin has a 47R in series to the XNOR > gate, the other has a 150R in series to that same gate. It's as if the > line with the 150R could be asserted 'high' by some line and then the > line with the 47R could re-assert it 'low' - but not all the way to > zero, more like to 1/3 of voltage. See, that makes no sense to me,. > > Ditto for the Pin 1 / Pin 7 relationship. Both of these pins are > essentially outputs from the same op-amp output - one is basically a > direct-out from the op-amp #2, the other is via the collector of a PNP > (3906) transistor - the base of which is also tied to op-amp output #2. > This is the stuff that's really confusing me.. is the 3906 acting as an > inverter? If so, why? Many serial interfaces are differential so you wouldn't necessarily expect a voltage to be at reference to GND for a logical 0. For "real" RS232, you'd expect a logical low to be below 0 volts, so maybe that's some of what they are doing here since they aren't using something like 1488/1489 transceivers to do the level conversion? > To be clear, J1 (10-pin I/O header) has two pins (4 & 6) both tied to > the selfsame +input+ point, and two pins (1 & 7) tied to the selfsame > +output+ point. J2 is identical, but it uses a different op-amp and a > different XNOR input. Otherwise, J1 and J2 are carbon-copies of each > other, electronically speaking. It is looking like the pinout isn't going to be 'standard' RS232 though. Just pin 5 being NC wouldn't match up with a RS232 pinned DE9 where you would expect TXD on pin 3. >> It makes sense that pin 10 would be an extra ground too, since it is >> quite possible they originally used a 9-conductor ribbon cable and >> wouldn't have connected that pin. You may also find than the signals >> come out on the correct pins of a DE9 connected to a 10-pin IDS >> connector with some 9-conductor ribbon cable. > > Or to a 25-pin version of the same. Sure wish I had one! But I tossed / > gave all that away years ago, I think.. =/ Those likely wouldn't have worked with this board since it doesn't look to be purely RS232. Even the generic boards that used the 10 pin IDS to DE9 or DB25 cables varied on their pinouts so there were multiple pinouts for the cables. With a straight through ribbon cable and an IDC press-on type DE9 connector, you'd get a pinout such as this: IDS DE9 RS232 1 1 DCD 2 6 DSR 3 2 RXD 4 7 RTS 5 3 TXD 6 8 CTS 7 4 DTR 8 9 RI 9 5 GND 10 NC ...but some companies would instead use solder cup DE9 / DB25 connectors and would split or fold the ribbon cable around different ways from 1->9 or 1->5, 9->6, etc for DE9 and the DB25 cables had even more variations. From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Nov 15 15:33:59 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 13:33:59 -0800 Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout In-Reply-To: <5467C516.6000205@update.uu.se> References: <20141115011919.E500A18C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5467C516.6000205@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5467C6C7.40606@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-15 13:26, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-11-14 17:59, drlegendre . wrote: >> Wow.. >> >> On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 7:19 PM, Noel Chiappa >> wrote: >> >>> > From: Roe Peterson >>> >>> > Can anyone point me at the pinouts for the KDJ11-E pdp11/93 >>> DB9 rs232 >>> > connectors for the extra 7 (simulated) DL11s? >>> >>> Alas, documentation on the 11/93-94 seems to be very scarce on the >>> ground. >>> (And, just for grins, the page in the 11/94 User Guide which has the >>> section - >>> 1.2.6 - which talks, however briefly, about that panel - pg. 1-4 - is >>> missing >>> from all the online copies of that manual which I checked.) >> >> >> Man, this is like deja-vu all over again.. at least I don't feel like >> I'm >> the only one in serial-pinout confusionland. > > Hmm. Interestingly enough I just searched through both the 11/93 and > 11/94 manuals, which I referred to before, and neither actually seems to > have the pinouts for the serial ports. Oh well. > > The console is on a DB25, with a very standard RS-232. I hope everyone > can manage to get that one right. > > For the DE9 connectors, they actually also follow the RS-232 standard. > For a connector without the modem control, all pins are in the first 9 > anyway, so no problem. If you want full modem control, there is one > signal - DCD I think, which is on pin 20 in the RS-232 spec. On the DEC > DE9, I think that one was moved to pin 8. But someone should check that > out, in case they actually want full modem control. And I just read Glen Slick's response about the pinouts, where he listed them fully. Apparently, DEC never did modem control on any of the ports, so it's just 2,3,7 which are useful anyway. Johnny From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 15 15:49:18 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 16:49:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout Message-ID: <20141115214918.6568818C0EC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist >> (.. the page in the 11/94 User Guide .. pg. 1-4 - is missing from >> all the online copies of that manual which I checked.) >> ... >> the pinout on the board is given in the KDJ11-E User's Guide >> (EK-KDJ1E-UG-001, available online) > PDP-11/9x manuals are not scarce at all. Where do you people search??? > 11/93: > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1193/EK-KDJ1E-UG-001_KDJ11-E_CPU_Module_Users_Guide_Jan91.pdf > 11/94: > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1194/EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf If you actually read my message (the one you included in your reply), you will see that I referenced _both_ of those (the 94 'MG' document is fully titled the 'System User and Maintainence Guide' - I shorted that mouthful to make it less work to type), and indicated they were available online. And the '93' manual you list is not for the 93, but rather is for the KDJ11-E CPU card, which is used in _both_ the 93 and 94. (That document is also mostly duplicative of the 94-MG.) Needless to say, there's a lot more to those systems than the CPU card, although some of it (e.g. the power supplies) _may_ be documented separately; I haven't checked. Typical DEC systems have a lot of other documents, none of which seem to be available online for the 93/94, including (typically): User Manual Technical Manual Maintainence Manual Field Maintainence Print Set Illustrated Parts Breakdown For the KDJ11-E there does seem to be the "KDJ11-E CPU System Maintenance Manual" (EK-403AA-MM-001), but that doesn't seem to be available online. The one 11/94 document I know of (the System User and Maintainence Guide) does reference the Field Maintainence Print Set for the 11/94 (MP-02637-01 - but according to Manx, that's not available online), and the IPB. So probably the other ones don't exist for the /94. I don't know which of these documents even exist for the /93, since I can't find a single 93-specific document - which might list what other /93 documents exist. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 15 16:01:23 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 14:01:23 -0800 Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout In-Reply-To: <20141115214918.6568818C0EC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141115214918.6568818C0EC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5467CD33.8010000@bitsavers.org> On 11/15/14 1:49 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Typical DEC systems have a lot of other documents, none of which seem to be > available online for the 93/94, including (typically): > > User Manual > Technical Manual > Maintainence Manual > Field Maintainence Print Set > Illustrated Parts Breakdown > None of which came for free with the systems, especially if they were OEMed. Paper manuals pretty much dried up or became useless unless you were willing to spend a lot of money for DEC gear by the mid-80s as the corporation abandoned their traditional customer base of gear-heads. I combed through the DEC company archive before it moved off-site at CHM and there just wasn't much in there from the 80's. It's pretty much just the odd manual from here and there that I'm adding now. R80, DMF32, DMP11 were uploaded recently, just waiting for the mirror rsyncs to start up again. From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Nov 15 16:25:56 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 14:25:56 -0800 Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout In-Reply-To: <20141115214918.6568818C0EC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141115214918.6568818C0EC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5467D2F4.9050204@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-15 13:49, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > >> (.. the page in the 11/94 User Guide .. pg. 1-4 - is missing from > >> all the online copies of that manual which I checked.) > >> ... > >> the pinout on the board is given in the KDJ11-E User's Guide > >> (EK-KDJ1E-UG-001, available online) > > > PDP-11/9x manuals are not scarce at all. Where do you people search??? > > > 11/93: > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1193/EK-KDJ1E-UG-001_KDJ11-E_CPU_Module_Users_Guide_Jan91.pdf > > 11/94: > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1194/EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf > > If you actually read my message (the one you included in your reply), you > will see that I referenced _both_ of those (the 94 'MG' document is fully > titled the 'System User and Maintainence Guide' - I shorted that mouthful to > make it less work to type), and indicated they were available online. My mistake. I was conflating different things, and being too quick. The comments about 11/9x manuals being scarce on the internet is what my main point was. Both the manuals I referred to are available, and makes I think that shows that documentation is not so scarce. > And the '93' manual you list is not for the 93, but rather is for the KDJ11-E > CPU card, which is used in _both_ the 93 and 94. (That document is also > mostly duplicative of the 94-MG.) Needless to say, there's a lot more to > those systems than the CPU card, although some of it (e.g. the power > supplies) _may_ be documented separately; I haven't checked. Agreed. But since the CPU is the same for both the 11/93 and 11/94, what else is in there is documented elsewhere. Actual cabinet, power supply, box, and so on, are mostly generic DEC bits, which have their own manuals. If you want to know specific, unique 11/93-94 information, it's mostly about the CPU module. Partly also the Unibus converter is relevant, even if it is the same as in the 11/84. But yes, sometimes drawings would be nice. :-) Johnny From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 15 16:28:36 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 17:28:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: pdp11/93 DB9 rs232 pinout Message-ID: <20141115222836.492C118C0F2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > It's pretty much just the odd manual from here and there that I'm > adding now. Speaking of which, is there by any chance a master list somewhere of stuff you're looking for? Or if Manx says 'not available online', can I take that to the bank? (Although identifying missing things that way's kind of tedious - one has to type each document's ID into Google to see if it's available.) Because I just bought a big stack of stuff, and perhaps some of it is stuff that's not available online - if so, I'd be happy to scan any such. Noel From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 16:47:00 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 16:47:00 -0600 Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: <5467C30F.5070309@gmail.com> References: <5467C30F.5070309@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jules & All, On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > Are you even sure that it's intended as a terminal board, rather than for > some other peripheral that happens to be serial in nature? > Now why did you have to go and ask +that+? ;-) No, I guess I don't know for sure, but here's what I do know - the last owner did have +some+ way of talking to the system (in its previous configuration), and this is the +only+ board in the lot that even comes close to resembling a communications card. The other boards are a Z-80 CPU, a 64K dynamic RAM and a dual floppy-disk controller. The Z-80 CPU board does have both serial & parallel I/O edge-connectors on it, but they look to have had little to zero use.. maybe one or two connection cycles at most, perhaps just one cycle for factory QA testing. Also, and this was dumb of me, I recall the serial board having a cable +soldered+ directly to it. It only had 3 wires which terminated in a 25-pin sub-D male connector, with only 3 pins installed. It struck me (like much of the system) to have been a careless bodge or hack of some sort, so I must have de-soldered it. Now, I can't even locate that cable, or tell where it was previously attached. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 17:04:56 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 17:04:56 -0600 Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: References: <5467C30F.5070309@gmail.com> Message-ID: FYI - I put up a couple photos of the board at: http://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_01.jpg http://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_02.jpg On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 4:47 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Jules & All, > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Jules Richardson < > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> Are you even sure that it's intended as a terminal board, rather than for >> some other peripheral that happens to be serial in nature? >> > > Now why did you have to go and ask +that+? ;-) > > No, I guess I don't know for sure, but here's what I do know - the last > owner did have +some+ way of talking to the system (in its previous > configuration), and this is the +only+ board in the lot that even comes > close to resembling a communications card. The other boards are a Z-80 > CPU, a 64K dynamic RAM and a dual floppy-disk controller. > > The Z-80 CPU board does have both serial & parallel I/O edge-connectors on > it, but they look to have had little to zero use.. maybe one or two > connection cycles at most, perhaps just one cycle for factory QA testing. > > Also, and this was dumb of me, I recall the serial board having a cable > +soldered+ directly to it. It only had 3 wires which terminated in a 25-pin > sub-D male connector, with only 3 pins installed. It struck me (like much > of the system) to have been a careless bodge or hack of some sort, so I > must have de-soldered it. Now, I can't even locate that cable, or tell > where it was previously attached. > From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Nov 15 17:37:25 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 17:37:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: References: <5467C30F.5070309@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Nov 2014, drlegendre . wrote: > FYI - I put up a couple photos of the board at: > > http://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_01.jpg > > http://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_02.jpg What happened with the charred area between the uarts and the edge connector (hopefully not conductive)? Did that pair of tantalum capacitors burn up? Nichicon PW series low-esr aluminum electrolytics make for an excellent radial tantalum replacement. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 20:42:25 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 20:42:25 -0600 Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: References: <5467C30F.5070309@gmail.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 5:37 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> What happened with the charred area between the uarts and the edge > connector (hopefully not conductive)? Did that pair of tantalum capacitors > burn up? Nichicon PW series low-esr aluminum electrolytics make for an > excellent radial tantalum replacement. > Ah, that info must have been part of a different discussion.. and it might also be a clue, since the board was (apparently?) operating in +some+ form prior to the repair.. Those charred areas locate the 12V zener diodes & dropping resistors that form the +/- 12V supplies for the board. As received, the board was already like this, and the offending components had been simply cut away - this all happened long before my time with it. Now obviously, I didn't initially know what was supposed to be there. But I started tracing the board and found that one set of traces went to the -12V supply input for the original 1013 UARTs as well as the GND / -Vcc terminals of the 1458 op-amps. Now, the present UARTs no longer require a -12V supply - that need was eliminated with the 1014/1015, so they would have been fine without the zener reg.. But the op-amps most certainly do require a bipolar supply (if they're going to do real RS-232 conversion, right?). So that tells me that whatever was going on previously wasn't using the board as originally designed.. because the never bothered to replace the +/- regs once they killed them. I went ahead and fixed them, this time with 5W zeners and 1.2W resistors. Now I'm thinking.. I need to see if there's a hack anywhere on that board to supply single-supply 8V or 5V power to the op-amps.. but I think they need more than 5V, don't they? (time to look at the datasheet) From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 22:18:10 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 22:18:10 -0600 Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: References: <5467C30F.5070309@gmail.com> Message-ID: Quick update - I made an error. Pin 3 (both i/o headers) isn't tied to the 1458 Vcc+ - they're tied to the 1458 Vcc-. So, they have a 1K pull-down to -12V rather than a pull-up to +12V. So why is there a pin (3) on each header that's essentially a -12V @ 12mA current source? On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 8:42 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Howdy, > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 5:37 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> >>> What happened with the charred area between the uarts and the edge >> connector (hopefully not conductive)? Did that pair of tantalum capacitors >> burn up? Nichicon PW series low-esr aluminum electrolytics make for an >> excellent radial tantalum replacement. >> > > Ah, that info must have been part of a different discussion.. and it might > also be a clue, since the board was (apparently?) operating in +some+ form > prior to the repair.. > > Those charred areas locate the 12V zener diodes & dropping resistors that > form the +/- 12V supplies for the board. As received, the board was already > like this, and the offending components had been simply cut away - this all > happened long before my time with it. > > Now obviously, I didn't initially know what was supposed to be there. But > I started tracing the board and found that one set of traces went to the > -12V supply input for the original 1013 UARTs as well as the GND / -Vcc > terminals of the 1458 op-amps. Now, the present UARTs no longer require a > -12V supply - that need was eliminated with the 1014/1015, so they would > have been fine without the zener reg.. But the op-amps most certainly do > require a bipolar supply (if they're going to do real RS-232 conversion, > right?). > > So that tells me that whatever was going on previously wasn't using the > board as originally designed.. because the never bothered to replace the > +/- regs once they killed them. I went ahead and fixed them, this time with > 5W zeners and 1.2W resistors. Now I'm thinking.. I need to see if there's a > hack anywhere on that board to supply single-supply 8V or 5V power to the > op-amps.. but I think they need more than 5V, don't they? (time to look at > the datasheet) > From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 23:02:54 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 23:02:54 -0600 Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: References: <5467C30F.5070309@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ok, I think I've made some progress.. Header pins 1 & 7 are both common to opt #2 of the op-amp. The inputs of op-amp #2 are as follows - the +IN seems to be tied to a voltage ref, but the -IN is tied to the SEROUT (serial output) of the UART. Sooo.. header pins 1 & 7 are both serial outputs, though one is a 'direct' out (via a 1K2) and the other is via the collector of a 3906 PNP. So if you view this with the pin 4 & 6 situation in mind, it does seem that this board provides both 'plain' (RS-232?) outputs as well as current-loop outputs, PLUS 'plain' and current-loop inputs - on the same header. Am I getting that right?? Also, I found more interesting info.. Header pin 9 is connected to opt #1 of the op-amp. The +IN of #1 seems to again be tied to a voltage ref, but the -IN is tied to the DAV line (Data Available) of the UART. Apparently, DAV goes high when a full character has been received and is ready to be read-out of the UART buffer. So this must be the... I don't know.. a line that goes 'hi' when the UART can receive no more bits and must wait till the current char is read-out. So this must be something like the DSR / DTR line? Letting the other end know that it can't send more bits till the UART buffer has been read? On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 10:18 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Quick update - I made an error. > > Pin 3 (both i/o headers) isn't tied to the 1458 Vcc+ - they're tied to the > 1458 Vcc-. So, they have a 1K pull-down to -12V rather than a pull-up to > +12V. > > So why is there a pin (3) on each header that's essentially a -12V @ 12mA > current source? > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 8:42 PM, drlegendre . > wrote: > >> Howdy, >> >> On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 5:37 PM, Tothwolf >> wrote: >> >>> >>>> What happened with the charred area between the uarts and the edge >>> connector (hopefully not conductive)? Did that pair of tantalum capacitors >>> burn up? Nichicon PW series low-esr aluminum electrolytics make for an >>> excellent radial tantalum replacement. >>> >> >> Ah, that info must have been part of a different discussion.. and it >> might also be a clue, since the board was (apparently?) operating in +some+ >> form prior to the repair.. >> >> Those charred areas locate the 12V zener diodes & dropping resistors that >> form the +/- 12V supplies for the board. As received, the board was already >> like this, and the offending components had been simply cut away - this all >> happened long before my time with it. >> >> Now obviously, I didn't initially know what was supposed to be there. But >> I started tracing the board and found that one set of traces went to the >> -12V supply input for the original 1013 UARTs as well as the GND / -Vcc >> terminals of the 1458 op-amps. Now, the present UARTs no longer require a >> -12V supply - that need was eliminated with the 1014/1015, so they would >> have been fine without the zener reg.. But the op-amps most certainly do >> require a bipolar supply (if they're going to do real RS-232 conversion, >> right?). >> >> So that tells me that whatever was going on previously wasn't using the >> board as originally designed.. because the never bothered to replace the >> +/- regs once they killed them. I went ahead and fixed them, this time with >> 5W zeners and 1.2W resistors. Now I'm thinking.. I need to see if there's a >> hack anywhere on that board to supply single-supply 8V or 5V power to the >> op-amps.. but I think they need more than 5V, don't they? (time to look at >> the datasheet) >> > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 16 00:06:02 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 06:06:02 +0000 Subject: MCT Serial board mystery - Can you crack the pinout code? In-Reply-To: References: <5467C30F.5070309@gmail.com> , Message-ID: > > Ok, I think I've made some progress.. > > Header pins 1 & 7 are both common to opt #2 of the op-amp. The inputs of > op-amp #2 are as follows - the +IN seems to be tied to a voltage ref, but > the -IN is tied to the SEROUT (serial output) of the UART. > > Sooo.. header pins 1 & 7 are both serial outputs, though one is a 'direct' > out (via a 1K2) and the other is via the collector of a 3906 PNP. So if you > view this with the pin 4 & 6 situation in mind, it does seem that this > board provides both 'plain' (RS-232?) outputs as well as current-loop > outputs, PLUS 'plain' and current-loop inputs - on the same header. I think so. The current loop connection is the collector of a PNP transistor (2N3906) which suggests that's the positive side of the loop (emitter to a +ve voltage). So my next guess is that that pin with the 1k resistor to -12V is the -ve side of the loop. If the transistor emitter goes to +12V or something like that you have a 20-odd mA loop which seems about right. I still want to know more about the input circuitry... > > Am I getting that right?? > > Also, I found more interesting info.. Header pin 9 is connected to opt #1 > of the op-amp. The +IN of #1 seems to again be tied to a voltage ref, but > the -IN is tied to the DAV line (Data Available) of the UART. Apparently, > DAV goes high when a full character has been received and is ready to be > read-out of the UART buffer. So this must be the... I don't know.. a line > that goes 'hi' when the UART can receive no more bits and must wait till > the current char is read-out. So this must be something like the DSR / DTR > line? Letting the other end know that it can't send more bits till the UART > buffer has been read? My guess, again, is that this is related to using the board with an ASR33. It was a common modification to such teletypes to add a reader control relay, allowing the computer to start and stop the paper tape reader. DEC, HP, Intel all did it (in much the same way) for their machines. I am going to guess that this output is to operate such a relay so you can use the paper tape reader (e.g. to load software) and not loose characters. -tony From slandon110 at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 21:12:11 2014 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 22:12:11 -0500 Subject: Just Moved: Clearing out sale Message-ID: <5468160B.2030505@gmail.com> I just moved into a new place, and after moving the amount of computer stuff I have, Ive decided that I need to thin the collection. I have the following Nice original Mac 128k with carry bag, manuals, original ssw disks, boxed external 1200 modem, external floppy disk drive And Imagewriter I- Everything is there except the box, Has boxed Mac Software with it too, MacTerminal, Mac Pascal. MacPaint/MacWrite. Even the original audio cassette tour tape. Mac 512k- Has Aldus Asset Tag on it #201- Former Pagemaker Dev machine, with external hard to find Hard Disk 20, the one that connects to the floppy port. Macintosh Plus- Works but needs a keyboard & Mouse Macintosh Classic- Works but needs a cap job. Make a fair offer on anything. It needs to go From slandon110 at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 22:09:10 2014 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 23:09:10 -0500 Subject: FS: Commodore 64 Items. ZoomFloppy, User Port Relay Cart and Comet64 Message-ID: <54682366.4010406@gmail.com> Just clearing out more stuff, got the following commodore 64 items that need a home Jim Brain's ZoomFloppy- Allows you to connect your 1541 to your PC to make Floppy Disks- Works Great. First $20 shipped takes it Comet64 Internet Modem- Serial to Ethernet Adapter for your C64, Also allows you to use Virtual Disks over the internet. First $25 shipped takes it. User Port Relay Cartridge Essentially a GPIO Cart for the C64, you can turn relays on and off through basic $20 shipped Takes it From slandon110 at gmail.com Sun Nov 16 00:22:36 2014 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 01:22:36 -0500 Subject: FS: Apple 20SC Hard Disk, Tape Backup 40SC and Apple CDSC- Zero Footprint Drives for Plus/SE Message-ID: <546842AC.2070308@gmail.com> More stuff cleaning out from the move Got the following in working condition. These are all zero footprint and fit under the Compact mac machines. Also stacks nicely next to the Mac II Series Apple 20SC External SCSI Hard Drive- Commonly used with the Mac Plus and SE Apple Tape Backup 40SC- Tape Backup drive Uses QIC Tape Apple CDSC Single Speed CD-ROM Drive From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sun Nov 16 05:53:20 2014 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 21:53:20 +1000 Subject: what has happened to the ML archive? Message-ID: <54689030.1090509@yahoo.com.au> What has happened to the ML archive? tom From gkaufman at the-planet.org Sun Nov 16 13:05:11 2014 From: gkaufman at the-planet.org (Gary Kaufman) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 14:05:11 -0500 Subject: Vince Briel computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5468F567.1060809@the-planet.org> I have to admit I'm getting very frustrated with the situation. I ordered from Vince in August, and paid $218 in advance. His website is still accepting payment via Paypal, and it appears that others have also not received shipment of their Superboard III orders. I guess he's in San Diego, anyone have any direct contact information other than his email address? - Gary On 11/10/2014 2:38 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: He seems to come and go. I ordered a mini-altair from him in September of 2013 and got it around a year later. From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Nov 16 13:49:57 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 11:49:57 -0800 Subject: BLIT display debugging advice In-Reply-To: <544DB758.3090102@gmail.com> References: <544C6713.4040908@gmail.com> <544C83E8.8010507@alum.mit.edu> <544DB758.3090102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5468FFE5.5050309@gmail.com> On 10/26/2014 8:09 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 10/25/2014 10:17 PM, Don North wrote: >> On 10/25/2014 8:14 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> I picked up a Teletype DMD 5620 (aka BLIT) terminal a couple of >>> weeks back and I finally got the keyboard working this week; in the >>> meantime a problem with the display has cropped up. >>> >>> See here for a video: >>> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/blit/WP_20141023_001.mp4 >>> >>> (apologies for the quality and that it's rotated 90 degrees... you >>> get the general idea). >>> >>> For those without video-playback capability, essentially after >>> warming up for awhile (generally after a couple of minutes) the >>> screen starts shaking horizontally; like the horizontal position is >>> oscillating rapidly. This causes "fringes" on the horizontal edges >>> of the picture, as this oscillation occurs multiple times during the >>> course of a single rescan. Generally it gets worse and worse the >>> longer it's been on, though sometimes it will stabilize for a little >>> while. >>> >>> I thought it might be a bad solder joint and I started prodding >>> around with a dowel when the set was "cold" but I was unable to make >>> the screen jump at all while doing so. I also cleaned the >>> horizontal position and horizontal oscillator pots with some contact >>> cleaner to no real effect. >>> >>> I am not particularly good with CRTs, working on them is not my >>> favorite thing, something about the high voltages I guess :). Anyone >>> have any suggestions? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Josh >>> >> >> It appears the the screen is jumping in some integral number of >> pixels horizontally, like 32 or 64. I don't see any vertical scan >> line displacement. >> >> I would check that the digital horizontal sync (and blanking if >> available) are rock solid, and that the digital pixel stream is gives >> a stable eye, and >> it solidly locked to the horizontal sync signal. >> >> Based on the short little movie I would suspect more of a digital >> issue than a monitor analog issue, at least for starters. >> >> Don >> >> > > Thanks (to both you and JWS) for the tips. I'll see if I can get a > scope hooked up to the sync signals sometime this week, though the way > the behavior progresses (it gets steadily worse and the amplitude of > the oscillations gets greater) makes me think it's probably not a > problem with the signal coming from the display logic -- a digital > failure I'd expect to stay approximately the same, something that > increases in magnitude over time seems more like an analog thing, but > maybe I'm jumping to conclusions :). > > At any rate, it doesn't appear to be a thermal issue -- I powered it > on this afternoon and it's now immediately showing the issue, much > worse than before; to the extent that I can hear a not-very-pleasant > whining from the flyback that makes me nervous to run it for any > significant length of time as I'm afraid something (like the flyback) > might get damaged. > > I may attempt a recap at some point (when I find time -- I don't know > why I keep getting into new projects when I have no time for them...) > since it's likely due anyway. There are a lot of capacitors to > enumerate and stuffed into a relatively tight space. Did I mention > that I hate working on CRTs? :) > > Thanks again, > - Josh > > Just a a quick follow-up here: I recapped the BLIT this weekend. Recapping the monitor's power supply had no effect but after doing the main PCB it seems to be humming along nicely. I also redid the logic power supply while I was at it. Now to fix the mouse... - Josh From salgernon at me.com Sun Nov 16 10:42:35 2014 From: salgernon at me.com (Steve Algernon) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 08:42:35 -0800 Subject: FS: Apple 20SC Hard Disk, Tape Backup 40SC and Apple CDSC- Zero Footprint Drives for Plus/SE In-Reply-To: <546842AC.2070308@gmail.com> References: <546842AC.2070308@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm game for both, maybe. How much with shipping? 160 Woodview Dr The Dinosaur Ben Lomond, CA 95005 Thanks, --sma Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 15, 2014, at 10:22 PM, Steven Landon wrote: > > More stuff cleaning out from the move > > Got the following in working condition. These are all zero footprint and fit under the Compact mac machines. Also stacks nicely next to the Mac II Series > > Apple 20SC External SCSI Hard Drive- Commonly used with the Mac Plus and SE > Apple Tape Backup 40SC- Tape Backup drive Uses QIC Tape > Apple CDSC Single Speed CD-ROM Drive From bensinc at gmail.com Sun Nov 16 20:54:06 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 20:54:06 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141111121144.F3EF818C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141111121144.F3EF818C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I happened to already have a manual wire wrap tool, and it actually works pretty well! I was able to wire wrap the jumpers on my serial card and they seem pretty secure. However, I'm having other strange problems now. I'm not sure what I did, but at the moment I can't seem to boot into XXDP as I could before. It halts back to ODT at 00104, but I know from past runs that the restart address is 152010. If I do a 152010g, it does run XXDP and seems to work. I was messing with the halt option on my DLV11, but I currently have it set to go to ODT on break, which is what it's always been set to. I'm actually not sure what the common setting for that would be. It's either break, boot, or do nothing. It was on break earlier, and worked, so I think something else may be wrong. I'm currently only running with the CPU, memory, and serial boards installed. I did try what you suggested while trying to fix the initial problem. I reseated the boards and made sure the jumpers were secure, and reseated the two chips on the CPU board. I did receive my "new" M8186 from eBay, but it's missing all of the jumpers, and there is a strange modification... On my original M8186, there is a capacitor on the left, after the first row of chips, when looking at it from the tab side. The "new" one has that capacitor replaced with a piece of perfboard with two smaller capacitors, and a two pin connector. I have no idea what that might be, but I don't think I should try this board until I figure it out. One thing I was thinking of trying was moving the socketed chips from the new board to the old... I don't have any other great ideas right now though! On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 6:11 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ben Sinclair > > > what is the best way to connect the wire-wrap jumpers? I've never > > actually wire wrapped anything, but is that what I should do? > > Well, I use wire-wrap, but anything that makes a good connection and > doesn't > get in the way (of other cards, etc) is fine, really. Don't feel you have > to > use wire-wrap, or anything. > > > If you want to wire-wrap, there are two ways to go. They used to make > manual > tools for wrapping the wire, but I've never used those; I learned with a > gun. > Those are available on eBay now for relatively cheap, since wire-wrap is > now > more or less obsolete (if you're slightly patient - I paid $25 for a kit > containing two guns, a bunch of different tips for different gauge wire, > several packages of pre-stripped wires, several of the strippers that cut > the > wire and strip the right amount, and some un-wrap tools - a great deal :-); > that's the way I'd go. > > They are pretty easy to use; the only real trick is to learn how to apply > just > the right amount of up-down force while doing the wrap. Too much up, and > you > tend to pull the gun up as it wraps, and you don't get a nice tight wrap. > Too > much down, and you get an ugly ball at the bottom of the post as the wrap > winds around itself. The trick is to try and hold the gun neutrally > weighted, > and as it wraps let it push _itself_ up the pin, producing a nice tight > wrap. > > And of course you can do test wraps, and undo them if they come out looking > bad. It doesn't take long to get reasonably good with it. > > Noel > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From bensinc at gmail.com Sun Nov 16 21:04:19 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 21:04:19 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141111121144.F3EF818C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I just tried swapping the chips from my "new" M8186 to the old, and have the same result, by the way! On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 8:54 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I happened to already have a manual wire wrap tool, and it actually works > pretty well! I was able to wire wrap the jumpers on my serial card and they > seem pretty secure. > > However, I'm having other strange problems now. I'm not sure what I did, > but at the moment I can't seem to boot into XXDP as I could before. It > halts back to ODT at 00104, but I know from past runs that the restart > address is 152010. If I do a 152010g, it does run XXDP and seems to work. > > I was messing with the halt option on my DLV11, but I currently have it > set to go to ODT on break, which is what it's always been set to. I'm > actually not sure what the common setting for that would be. It's either > break, boot, or do nothing. It was on break earlier, and worked, so I think > something else may be wrong. > > I'm currently only running with the CPU, memory, and serial boards > installed. > > I did try what you suggested while trying to fix the initial problem. I > reseated the boards and made sure the jumpers were secure, and reseated the > two chips on the CPU board. > > I did receive my "new" M8186 from eBay, but it's missing all of the > jumpers, and there is a strange modification... On my original M8186, there > is a capacitor on the left, after the first row of chips, when looking at > it from the tab side. The "new" one has that capacitor replaced with a > piece of perfboard with two smaller capacitors, and a two pin connector. I > have no idea what that might be, but I don't think I should try this board > until I figure it out. > > One thing I was thinking of trying was moving the socketed chips from the > new board to the old... I don't have any other great ideas right now though! > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 6:11 AM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> > From: Ben Sinclair >> >> > what is the best way to connect the wire-wrap jumpers? I've never >> > actually wire wrapped anything, but is that what I should do? >> >> Well, I use wire-wrap, but anything that makes a good connection and >> doesn't >> get in the way (of other cards, etc) is fine, really. Don't feel you have >> to >> use wire-wrap, or anything. >> >> >> If you want to wire-wrap, there are two ways to go. They used to make >> manual >> tools for wrapping the wire, but I've never used those; I learned with a >> gun. >> Those are available on eBay now for relatively cheap, since wire-wrap is >> now >> more or less obsolete (if you're slightly patient - I paid $25 for a kit >> containing two guns, a bunch of different tips for different gauge wire, >> several packages of pre-stripped wires, several of the strippers that cut >> the >> wire and strip the right amount, and some un-wrap tools - a great deal >> :-); >> that's the way I'd go. >> >> They are pretty easy to use; the only real trick is to learn how to apply >> just >> the right amount of up-down force while doing the wrap. Too much up, and >> you >> tend to pull the gun up as it wraps, and you don't get a nice tight >> wrap. Too >> much down, and you get an ugly ball at the bottom of the post as the wrap >> winds around itself. The trick is to try and hold the gun neutrally >> weighted, >> and as it wraps let it push _itself_ up the pin, producing a nice tight >> wrap. >> >> And of course you can do test wraps, and undo them if they come out >> looking >> bad. It doesn't take long to get reasonably good with it. >> >> Noel >> > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From bensinc at gmail.com Sun Nov 16 21:16:42 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 21:16:42 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141111121144.F3EF818C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Sorry for all of the replies to myself! I just tried booting with halt on, so it didn't try and boot from the TU58 emulator, and I entered the memory address program from http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/hints.html. When I run the program, it halts at 000014. According to that site, the error address should be in R1, which reads as 004330. I did try and write to that location, and it reads back fine. I'm confused though, because it halts at 000014, but that program doesn't have an instruction at 000014. That may just be me not understanding how it works, but I would have thought it would halt on some location that actually had an instruction. I'm afraid I've messed this thing all up! I had it working better before I started messing with it, but I guess that's the fun part! On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 9:04 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I just tried swapping the chips from my "new" M8186 to the old, and have > the same result, by the way! > > On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 8:54 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > >> I happened to already have a manual wire wrap tool, and it actually works >> pretty well! I was able to wire wrap the jumpers on my serial card and they >> seem pretty secure. >> >> However, I'm having other strange problems now. I'm not sure what I did, >> but at the moment I can't seem to boot into XXDP as I could before. It >> halts back to ODT at 00104, but I know from past runs that the restart >> address is 152010. If I do a 152010g, it does run XXDP and seems to work. >> >> I was messing with the halt option on my DLV11, but I currently have it >> set to go to ODT on break, which is what it's always been set to. I'm >> actually not sure what the common setting for that would be. It's either >> break, boot, or do nothing. It was on break earlier, and worked, so I think >> something else may be wrong. >> >> I'm currently only running with the CPU, memory, and serial boards >> installed. >> >> I did try what you suggested while trying to fix the initial problem. I >> reseated the boards and made sure the jumpers were secure, and reseated the >> two chips on the CPU board. >> >> I did receive my "new" M8186 from eBay, but it's missing all of the >> jumpers, and there is a strange modification... On my original M8186, there >> is a capacitor on the left, after the first row of chips, when looking at >> it from the tab side. The "new" one has that capacitor replaced with a >> piece of perfboard with two smaller capacitors, and a two pin connector. I >> have no idea what that might be, but I don't think I should try this board >> until I figure it out. >> >> One thing I was thinking of trying was moving the socketed chips from the >> new board to the old... I don't have any other great ideas right now though! >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 6:11 AM, Noel Chiappa >> wrote: >> >>> > From: Ben Sinclair >>> >>> > what is the best way to connect the wire-wrap jumpers? I've never >>> > actually wire wrapped anything, but is that what I should do? >>> >>> Well, I use wire-wrap, but anything that makes a good connection and >>> doesn't >>> get in the way (of other cards, etc) is fine, really. Don't feel you >>> have to >>> use wire-wrap, or anything. >>> >>> >>> If you want to wire-wrap, there are two ways to go. They used to make >>> manual >>> tools for wrapping the wire, but I've never used those; I learned with a >>> gun. >>> Those are available on eBay now for relatively cheap, since wire-wrap is >>> now >>> more or less obsolete (if you're slightly patient - I paid $25 for a kit >>> containing two guns, a bunch of different tips for different gauge wire, >>> several packages of pre-stripped wires, several of the strippers that >>> cut the >>> wire and strip the right amount, and some un-wrap tools - a great deal >>> :-); >>> that's the way I'd go. >>> >>> They are pretty easy to use; the only real trick is to learn how to >>> apply just >>> the right amount of up-down force while doing the wrap. Too much up, and >>> you >>> tend to pull the gun up as it wraps, and you don't get a nice tight >>> wrap. Too >>> much down, and you get an ugly ball at the bottom of the post as the wrap >>> winds around itself. The trick is to try and hold the gun neutrally >>> weighted, >>> and as it wraps let it push _itself_ up the pin, producing a nice tight >>> wrap. >>> >>> And of course you can do test wraps, and undo them if they come out >>> looking >>> bad. It doesn't take long to get reasonably good with it. >>> >>> Noel >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ben Sinclair >> ben at bensinclair.com >> > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From bensinc at gmail.com Sun Nov 16 21:44:43 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 21:44:43 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141111121144.F3EF818C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Well, I just discovered something interesting... What exactly does the aux switch on the front panel control? I assumed it was power to the AC plug on the back of the machine, but it must do something else. With aux in the down position, it again boots to XXDP! If I flip it up and restart, it drops back to ODT after trying to boot XXDP from the TU58. >From the documentation, I don't see that it does anything other than control that AC plug. I'm not sure what to make of it! If I'm having some sort of power issue, I don't see it on the BDV11 test points. They read 4.96 and 12.00, which I think is correct. Thanks! On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 9:16 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Sorry for all of the replies to myself! I just tried booting with halt on, > so it didn't try and boot from the TU58 emulator, and I entered the memory > address program from http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/hints.html. > > When I run the program, it halts at 000014. According to that site, the > error address should be in R1, which reads as 004330. I did try and write > to that location, and it reads back fine. > > I'm confused though, because it halts at 000014, but that program doesn't > have an instruction at 000014. That may just be me not understanding how it > works, but I would have thought it would halt on some location that > actually had an instruction. > > I'm afraid I've messed this thing all up! I had it working better before I > started messing with it, but I guess that's the fun part! > > On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 9:04 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > >> I just tried swapping the chips from my "new" M8186 to the old, and have >> the same result, by the way! >> >> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 8:54 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: >> >>> I happened to already have a manual wire wrap tool, and it actually >>> works pretty well! I was able to wire wrap the jumpers on my serial card >>> and they seem pretty secure. >>> >>> However, I'm having other strange problems now. I'm not sure what I did, >>> but at the moment I can't seem to boot into XXDP as I could before. It >>> halts back to ODT at 00104, but I know from past runs that the restart >>> address is 152010. If I do a 152010g, it does run XXDP and seems to work. >>> >>> I was messing with the halt option on my DLV11, but I currently have it >>> set to go to ODT on break, which is what it's always been set to. I'm >>> actually not sure what the common setting for that would be. It's either >>> break, boot, or do nothing. It was on break earlier, and worked, so I think >>> something else may be wrong. >>> >>> I'm currently only running with the CPU, memory, and serial boards >>> installed. >>> >>> I did try what you suggested while trying to fix the initial problem. I >>> reseated the boards and made sure the jumpers were secure, and reseated the >>> two chips on the CPU board. >>> >>> I did receive my "new" M8186 from eBay, but it's missing all of the >>> jumpers, and there is a strange modification... On my original M8186, there >>> is a capacitor on the left, after the first row of chips, when looking at >>> it from the tab side. The "new" one has that capacitor replaced with a >>> piece of perfboard with two smaller capacitors, and a two pin connector. I >>> have no idea what that might be, but I don't think I should try this board >>> until I figure it out. >>> >>> One thing I was thinking of trying was moving the socketed chips from >>> the new board to the old... I don't have any other great ideas right now >>> though! >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 6:11 AM, Noel Chiappa >>> wrote: >>> >>>> > From: Ben Sinclair >>>> >>>> > what is the best way to connect the wire-wrap jumpers? I've never >>>> > actually wire wrapped anything, but is that what I should do? >>>> >>>> Well, I use wire-wrap, but anything that makes a good connection and >>>> doesn't >>>> get in the way (of other cards, etc) is fine, really. Don't feel you >>>> have to >>>> use wire-wrap, or anything. >>>> >>>> >>>> If you want to wire-wrap, there are two ways to go. They used to make >>>> manual >>>> tools for wrapping the wire, but I've never used those; I learned with >>>> a gun. >>>> Those are available on eBay now for relatively cheap, since wire-wrap >>>> is now >>>> more or less obsolete (if you're slightly patient - I paid $25 for a kit >>>> containing two guns, a bunch of different tips for different gauge wire, >>>> several packages of pre-stripped wires, several of the strippers that >>>> cut the >>>> wire and strip the right amount, and some un-wrap tools - a great deal >>>> :-); >>>> that's the way I'd go. >>>> >>>> They are pretty easy to use; the only real trick is to learn how to >>>> apply just >>>> the right amount of up-down force while doing the wrap. Too much up, >>>> and you >>>> tend to pull the gun up as it wraps, and you don't get a nice tight >>>> wrap. Too >>>> much down, and you get an ugly ball at the bottom of the post as the >>>> wrap >>>> winds around itself. The trick is to try and hold the gun neutrally >>>> weighted, >>>> and as it wraps let it push _itself_ up the pin, producing a nice tight >>>> wrap. >>>> >>>> And of course you can do test wraps, and undo them if they come out >>>> looking >>>> bad. It doesn't take long to get reasonably good with it. >>>> >>>> Noel >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ben Sinclair >>> ben at bensinclair.com >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ben Sinclair >> ben at bensinclair.com >> > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Nov 16 22:03:31 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 20:03:31 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141111121144.F3EF818C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 7:44 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Well, I just discovered something interesting... What exactly does the aux > switch on the front panel control? I assumed it was power to the AC plug on > the back of the machine, but it must do something else. With aux in the > down position, it again boots to XXDP! If I flip it up and restart, it > drops back to ODT after trying to boot XXDP from the TU58. > > From the documentation, I don't see that it does anything other than > control that AC plug. > Take a look at the 11/03-L Front Panel schematic on page 19 of this scan of the BA11-S Field Maintenance Print Set: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP01233_BA11-S_schem_Mar81.pdf If jumpers W1 and W2 are installed on the front panel PCB then the BEVENT line will be pulled down to ground when the AUX switch is in the OFF position and I believe that will disable the CPU from receiving LTC interrupts. Maybe your system is having issues handling LTC interrupts. I have one BA11-S with jumpers W1 and W2 installed on the front panel PCB and another one with those two jumpers removed, so check your front panel PCB to be sure whether or not they are installed, but it sounds like they must be in your case if the position of the AUX switch causes a behavior change. -Glen From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 16 22:11:56 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 22:11:56 -0600 Subject: what has happened to the ML archive? In-Reply-To: <54689030.1090509@yahoo.com.au> References: <54689030.1090509@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: <002f01d0021c$a143a850$e3caf8f0$@classiccmp.org> Really? REALLY? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Sparks Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 5:53 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: what has happened to the ML archive? What has happened to the ML archive? tom From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Nov 16 22:14:00 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 23:14:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141117041400.04D0918C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair > It halts back to ODT at 00104 Depending on how the vectors are set up, that could be an unhandled clock interrupt. Common practise is to set the vectors at X to point to X-2, and put a HALT instruction in X+2. 0100 is the line clock interrupt vector. > there is a strange modification... On my original M8186, there is a > capacitor on the left, after the first row of chips, when looking at it > from the tab side. You mean the component side? > The "new" one has that capacitor replaced with a piece of perfboard > with two smaller capacitors, and a two pin connector. I have no idea > what that might be Maybe the electrolytic failed, and the person couldn't find the right size replacement, so used two smaller ones in parallel? > When I run the program, it halts at 000014. That means it trapped through location 010 (illegal instruction); the vector there points to location 012; it executed the HALT instruction at 012, and stopped with the PC containing 014 (the location of the next instruction - see the description of the HALT instruction in most versions of the PDP-11 processor manual). To find out the location of the illegal instruction, you need to look on the stack: R6 (the SP) will point to to top of the stack, and the PC and PS at the time the illegal instruction were seen will be the top two things on the stack. (I forget whether they are in (SP) and (SP+2), or (SP+2) and (SP+4). And I forget whether the saved PC is the address of the bad instruction, or if the PC has already been incremented to point at the next instruction.) But I'm not sure that's really going to tell you much. If it's a hardware flaky, the fault may be happening on a perfectly good instuction. > the error address should be in R1, which reads as 004330. I did try and > write to that location, and it reads back fine. But if you trapped through 10, that's not caused by that memory location being a problem. > I'm confused though, because it halts at 000014, but that program > doesn't have an instruction at 000014. .. I would have thought it would > halt on some location that actually had an instruction. After a HALT instruction, the PC points to the _next_ instruction after the HALT. So the HALT was at 012. > What exactly does the aux switch on the front panel control? I assumed > it was power to the AC plug on the back of the machine, but it must do > something else. Well, it depends on what model of box you have, and how it's configured, but on standard DEC LSI11 boxes (the ones with three switches; Restart, Run/Halt, and Aux), the Aux can be configured (and normally is) to turn the Line Clock off and on; the Aux power thing is an optional behaviour. That would definitely fit the symptoms and behaviour you describe. > From the documentation, I don't see that it does anything other than > control that AC plug. There's documentation somewhere (don't recall off the top of my head - it won't be in the processor card stuff, it will be in the box documentation) about how to configure the Aux switch. Basically there are some jumpers on the PCB in the front panel. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Nov 16 22:17:58 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 23:17:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141117041758.B1D0C18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Common practise is to set the vectors at X to point to X-2, and put a > HALT instruction in X+2. Ooops, typo. That first "X-2" should be "X+2". Noel From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Sun Nov 16 23:18:46 2014 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 22:18:46 -0700 Subject: A classic Trivia Question Message-ID: In days of old when knights were bold and computers barely invented... In the PDP-8 PAL assembler what is the purpose of the following character sequence accomplish? *.+1%2^2 If you know the answer good for you! You get a gold star. Please don't blurt out the answer. Let people think about it a bit. I'll post the answer in a couple of days. I came up with this sequence this morning for use in an emulator I am working on. Doug Ingraham From evan at snarc.net Sun Nov 16 20:22:30 2014 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 21:22:30 -0500 Subject: Vince Briel computers In-Reply-To: <5468F567.1060809@the-planet.org> References: <5468F567.1060809@the-planet.org> Message-ID: <54695BE6.6070305@snarc.net> > anyone have any direct contact information other than his email address? I would've give out contact info without permission, but I sent him a text just now. From supervinx at libero.it Mon Nov 17 01:22:55 2014 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 08:22:55 +0100 Subject: ICL Quattro Message-ID: <1416208975.2586.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Hi! Does someone have some links or manuals about the ICL Quattro model 49 PC? I serviced the PSU, but have no response from the serial ports on the back. Can't say what the port numbering is and if they are DCE or DTE (I assume 9600,8,N,1, may be I'm wrong...). Thanks! -- Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) --==ooOoo==-- My computer collection: http://www.supervinx.com/Retrocomputer --==ooOoo==-- You can reach me at: www.supervinx.com www.facebook.com/supervinx http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx http://www.myspace.com/supervinx From ik at yvanj.me Mon Nov 17 04:30:33 2014 From: ik at yvanj.me (Yvan Janssens) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 10:30:33 +0000 Subject: ICL Quattro In-Reply-To: <1416208975.2586.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <1416208975.2586.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: The have some ICL equipment at TNMOC in Bletchley Park [1], you might want to poke in their mailbox if no suitable answer can be found on the list. [1]: http://www.tnmoc.org/ 2014-11-17 7:22 GMT+00:00 supervinx : > Hi! > Does someone have some links or manuals about the ICL Quattro model 49 > PC? > I serviced the PSU, but have no response from the serial ports on the > back. > Can't say what the port numbering is and if they are DCE or DTE (I > assume 9600,8,N,1, may be I'm wrong...). > > Thanks! > -- > Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) > > --==ooOoo==-- > My computer collection: > http://www.supervinx.com/Retrocomputer > > --==ooOoo==-- > You can reach me at: > www.supervinx.com > www.facebook.com/supervinx > http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx > http://www.myspace.com/supervinx > > > -- Kind regards, Yvan Janssens Sent using CompuServe 1.22 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 17 08:29:01 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 09:29:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: 22-bit ECO for REV11 (M9400) Message-ID: <20141117142901.9C73818C108@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Does anyone know if an ECO exists to convert a REV11 board (M9400) to 22-bit, in the same way that an ECO exists to convert BDV11's to 22-bit? (On the BDV11, there's a resistor pack with 4 unused pull-up/down pairs, making it a really trivial ECO.) Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 17 08:55:53 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 08:55:53 -0600 Subject: HP2000 TSB Contributed Library Message-ID: <009101d00276$965b32a0$c31197e0$@classiccmp.org> Curious if anyone might remember this. On the HP2K TSB system I used in high school, there was a system library program to assist with what we then called "spot plotting". This is what allowed you to position the cursor anywhere on the screen (given a terminal specific library of control codes for each terminal). All I can remember was that the system library program was called something like $PLOT or $ZPLOT or something similar. It was something to the effect of a different string with the control codes for each terminal, and the substring positions matched up with the row/column you wanted to go to. So printing A$(3,1);A$(8,1) or similar positioned the cursor at row 3 column 8. I'm sure this description isn't completely correct but it was something similar to that. I've looked through the HP Contributed library and while I can find a number of programs named similar to PLOT, none of them seem to provide this functionality. Perhaps it was site specific, but I'm wondering if anyone remembers anything like this and can shed light on it? I think it was a program stub that you "APP-" to your program, not sure. Best, J From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 17 08:49:48 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 09:49:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141117144948.D2F4818C10A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Noel Chiappa > There's documentation somewhere (don't recall off the top of my head > ..) about how to configure the Aux switch. Remembered where I saw it: in the "PDP-11/23B Mounting Box User's Guide" (EK-23BMB-UG-001), available here: http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/EK-23BMB-UG-001%20PDP-11-23B%20Mounting%20Box%20User's%20Guide.pdf among many other places, on pp. 2-3 and 2-4. (This manual talks about the BA11-S, but the front panel configuration is the same for other boxes - my BA11-N has the exact same hardware on the front panel.) Noel From bensinc at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 08:56:09 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 08:56:09 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141117144948.D2F4818C10A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141117144948.D2F4818C10A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for all of the info! I was going off a PDP-11/23 manual I found that seemed to be for a complete system, and it was saying the aux switch was for power (power to an RL02 in their example). I didn't realize it was configurable. I wasn't clear though on the discussion about the line clock... If my machine is having problems with the line clock, would I need to do anything to the aux switch, other than leave it in a certain position? On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 8:49 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Noel Chiappa > > > There's documentation somewhere (don't recall off the top of my head > > ..) about how to configure the Aux switch. > > Remembered where I saw it: in the "PDP-11/23B Mounting Box User's Guide" > (EK-23BMB-UG-001), available here: > > > http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/EK-23BMB-UG-001%20PDP-11-23B%20Mounting%20Box%20User's%20Guide.pdf > > among many other places, on pp. 2-3 and 2-4. (This manual talks about the > BA11-S, but the front panel configuration is the same for other boxes - my > BA11-N has the exact same hardware on the front panel.) > > Noel > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 17 09:21:24 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 10:21:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: ICL Quattro Message-ID: <20141117152124.9483A18C10C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Yvan Janssens > TNMOC in Bletchley Park [1] > ... > [1]: http://www.tnmoc.org/ Wow! What a great site! Thanks for the pointer. Y'all should go check it out - they are building an EDSAC replica, and the have the original Harwell Dekatron (aka WITCH) - the world's oldest operational computer - designed 1949, first operated 1951. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 17 09:35:17 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 10:35:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141117153517.B213C18C10C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair > I wasn't clear though on the discussion about the line clock... If my > machine is having problems with the line clock, would I need to do > anything to the aux switch, other than leave it in a certain position? Well, I wouldn't call it a 'problem'. The thing is that the 11/03 and 11/23 were, unlike all other PDP-11s, designed with a line clock which _the software could not enable/disable_. [*] The only way to turn the LTC on/off on those machines is with that front-panel switch. When running software which _does not_ handle line clock interrupts, turning the LTC on will blow the software away - it will get an un-handled interrupt. (As happened to you.) So if you're running code which does not use/handle the LTC (like XXDP, apparently), turn it off. If you're running something that does want/need it, turn it on. (And some software may require that it be _off_ while booting, and turned _on_ once the system has started - Unix V6 falls into this category.) * Two caveats. First, the 11/23-PLUS _does_ have software control over the LTC; there's an LTC register on that board; it's only the dual-height 11/23 which does not. Second, the BDV11 card has this really elegant kludge that basically adds an LTC register to a 11/03 or an 11/23, so on an 11/03 or 11/23 with a BDV11, you can leave the LTC switch on all the time, and the software can enable line clock interrupts if it wants them. Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 17 09:49:03 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 09:49:03 -0600 Subject: Looking for..... Message-ID: <00db01d0027e$03737ee0$0a5a7ca0$@classiccmp.org> Shortly I'll be building yet another HP2000 TSB machine, so I'm looking for either of the following: HP 12920B Asynchronous Multiplexer : 12920-60001 Upper Select Code Data Board 12920-60002 Lower Select Code Data Board 12922-60001 Control Board Or HP 12920A Asynchronous Multiplexer: 12921-60001 Upper Select Code Data Board 12921-60002 Lower Select Code Data Board 12922-60001 Control Board Generous bounty and/or trades available for either of the above. Even single boards of any of the above would be a big help. Best, J From bensinc at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 10:14:40 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 10:14:40 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141117153517.B213C18C10C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141117153517.B213C18C10C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Since I do have a BDV11, am I correct in that I should just leave the aux switch alone and continue debugging elsewhere? Thanks! On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 9:35 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ben Sinclair > > > I wasn't clear though on the discussion about the line clock... If my > > machine is having problems with the line clock, would I need to do > > anything to the aux switch, other than leave it in a certain > position? > > Well, I wouldn't call it a 'problem'. The thing is that the 11/03 and 11/23 > were, unlike all other PDP-11s, designed with a line clock which _the > software > could not enable/disable_. [*] The only way to turn the LTC on/off on those > machines is with that front-panel switch. When running software which _does > not_ handle line clock interrupts, turning the LTC on will blow the > software > away - it will get an un-handled interrupt. (As happened to you.) > > So if you're running code which does not use/handle the LTC (like XXDP, > apparently), turn it off. If you're running something that does want/need > it, > turn it on. (And some software may require that it be _off_ while booting, > and > turned _on_ once the system has started - Unix V6 falls into this > category.) > > * Two caveats. First, the 11/23-PLUS _does_ have software control over the > LTC; there's an LTC register on that board; it's only the dual-height 11/23 > which does not. Second, the BDV11 card has this really elegant kludge that > basically adds an LTC register to a 11/03 or an 11/23, so on an 11/03 or > 11/23 > with a BDV11, you can leave the LTC switch on all the time, and the > software > can enable line clock interrupts if it wants them. > > Noel > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 10:56:38 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 08:56:38 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141117153517.B213C18C10C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Since I do have a BDV11, am I correct in that I should just leave the aux > switch alone and continue debugging elsewhere? > Do you have jumper W4 installed or removed on your M8186? If you are using a BDV11 with the M8186 system then I believe you would normally have jumper W4 installed on the M8186. Then on the BDV11 you would set the E21 Switch 5 to the On/Closed position so that the LTC function is software controlled by Bit 6 of the resister at 177546. EK-KDF11-UG-PR2_Mar79.pdf Page 2-2, 2.2.2 Event Line - W4 EK-BDV11-TM-001_Mar78.pdf Page 3-3,Table 3-1, BEVNT L Switch Page 4-22, Figure 4-11, BEVNT Logic -Glen From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 11:02:24 2014 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 17:02:24 +0000 Subject: VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK Message-ID: Folks, Thanks to building reductions we're having to offload all our old VAX kit and I'd much rather see it go to someone who can use them, even as spares. There's also a load of UNIBUS and QBUS spares, too many to list. Big stuff: VAX 7710, various processors + memory AlphaServer GS60e Possibly VAX 6610 Less big stuff: Alpha 2100 + spares Alpha 2000 Alpha 800 Alpha 1000 x3 AlphaStation 2xx x4 (spares only) 2 MicroVAX 2000 Various VAXstations, 3100s etc + spares Several BA415 VAXen, 3400/3800/4200/4300 VAXstation 4000s Possibly an Alpha1200 and DS20 (big box version) Collection only, obviously these things are HEAVY. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From roeapeterson at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 11:19:29 2014 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 11:19:29 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141117144948.D2F4818C10A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Nov 17, 2014, at 8:56 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > Thanks for all of the info! I was going off a PDP-11/23 manual I found that > seemed to be for a complete system, and it was saying the aux switch was > for power (power to an RL02 in their example). I didn't realize it was > configurable. > > I wasn't clear though on the discussion about the line clock... If my > machine is having problems with the line clock, would I need to do anything > to the aux switch, other than leave it in a certain position? Because if you are getting unexpected LTC interrupts with the AUX switch in the up position, it probably means there is something wrong with the interrupt enable circuitry in the LTC itself. > .com From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Nov 17 11:40:37 2014 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 18:40:37 +0100 Subject: VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Adrian Graham Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 6:02 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK Folks, Thanks to building reductions we're having to offload all our old VAX kit and I'd much rather see it go to someone who can use them, even as spares. There's also a load of UNIBUS and QBUS spares, too many to list. Big stuff: VAX 7710, various processors + memory AlphaServer GS60e Possibly VAX 6610 Less big stuff: Alpha 2100 + spares Alpha 2000 Alpha 800 Alpha 1000 x3 AlphaStation 2xx x4 (spares only) 2 MicroVAX 2000 Various VAXstations, 3100s etc + spares Several BA415 VAXen, 3400/3800/4200/4300 VAXstation 4000s Possibly an Alpha1200 and DS20 (big box version) Collection only, obviously these things are HEAVY. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk ---- Darn, if this was in The Netherlands, I'd be picking up *everything* ASAP, for example THIS weekend! Especially the VAX 7710 and 6610. I cannot rent a truck and make a trip to the UK :-< - Henk, PA8PDP From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 12:29:52 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 18:29:52 -0000 Subject: VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <019e01d00294$7ab71aa0$70254fe0$@gmail.com> I would be interested in a microvax or similar... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Henk > Sent: 17 November 2014 17:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > From: Adrian Graham > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 6:02 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK > > Folks, > > Thanks to building reductions we're having to offload all our old VAX kit and > I'd much rather see it go to someone who can use them, even as spares. > There's also a load of UNIBUS and QBUS spares, too many to list. > > Big stuff: > > VAX 7710, various processors + memory > AlphaServer GS60e > Possibly VAX 6610 > > Less big stuff: > > Alpha 2100 + spares > Alpha 2000 > Alpha 800 > Alpha 1000 x3 > AlphaStation 2xx x4 (spares only) > 2 MicroVAX 2000 > Various VAXstations, 3100s etc + spares > Several BA415 VAXen, 3400/3800/4200/4300 VAXstation 4000s Possibly an > Alpha1200 and DS20 (big box version) > > Collection only, obviously these things are HEAVY. > > Cheers, > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > ---- > Darn, if this was in The Netherlands, I'd be picking up *everything* ASAP, for > example THIS weekend! Especially the VAX 7710 and 6610. > I cannot rent a truck and make a trip to the UK :-< > > - Henk, PA8PDP From bensinc at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 13:08:24 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 13:08:24 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141117153517.B213C18C10C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Thanks! I did not have a jumper on W4, so I added one, then set E21 switch 5 to "on." I've been messing with a few things today, and it seems like the system kind of works. I can boot the TU58 images I have from AK6DN's archive. He has a "home grown" diagnostics image, and they all seem to run fine, though I'm not sure exactly what they're testing. I ran the plain XXDP image and was able to run xteko. From the 11/23 XXDP images I can run the MMU test, which does pass after pass with no errors. The test I can't run, and think I should be able to run before I try to do anything else, is the JKDBDO CPU test. When I try to run this one it doesn't print anything and drops me to ODT at 037526. I believe it should print a "JKDBDO DCFlI AA CPU DIAGNOSTIC" banner when it starts, but it doesn't seem to get that far. Also, and I should have mentioned this before, from the time I got this system the LEDs on the BDV11 are always all on. I know green and one of the reds should be on to indicate proper power, but I believe the rest should be off if the system is running normally. However, I'm not sure I understand how those lights are controlled. The BDV11 manual says they are controlled through a register via software, so maybe I'm just not running anything that sets them. The only boot rom I have on the BDV11 is a TU58 boot loader, so if it's up to some other boot rom to set that LED register, maybe mine just doesn't do it. Thanks! On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > Since I do have a BDV11, am I correct in that I should just leave the aux > > switch alone and continue debugging elsewhere? > > > > Do you have jumper W4 installed or removed on your M8186? If you are > using a BDV11 with the M8186 system then I believe you would normally > have jumper W4 installed on the M8186. > > Then on the BDV11 you would set the E21 Switch 5 to the On/Closed > position so that the LTC function is software controlled by Bit 6 of > the resister at 177546. > > EK-KDF11-UG-PR2_Mar79.pdf > Page 2-2, 2.2.2 Event Line - W4 > > EK-BDV11-TM-001_Mar78.pdf > Page 3-3,Table 3-1, BEVNT L Switch > Page 4-22, Figure 4-11, BEVNT Logic > > -Glen > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 17 13:16:59 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 19:16:59 +0000 Subject: VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Adrian, Definitely interested in some of these things. Don't have space for the big stuff (although looking into this). Would be interested in the MicroVAX 2000s, and Unibus and QBus spares, possibly some BA415 stuff. Will get back to you later after I have had time to peruse the list more carefully. Regards Rob On 17 November 2014 17:02, Adrian Graham wrote: > Folks, > > Thanks to building reductions we're having to offload all our old VAX kit > and I'd much rather see it go to someone who can use them, even as spares. > There's also a load of UNIBUS and QBUS spares, too many to list. > > Big stuff: > > VAX 7710, various processors + memory > AlphaServer GS60e > Possibly VAX 6610 > > Less big stuff: > > Alpha 2100 + spares > Alpha 2000 > Alpha 800 > Alpha 1000 x3 > AlphaStation 2xx x4 (spares only) > 2 MicroVAX 2000 > Various VAXstations, 3100s etc + spares > Several BA415 VAXen, 3400/3800/4200/4300 > VAXstation 4000s > Possibly an Alpha1200 and DS20 (big box version) > > Collection only, obviously these things are HEAVY. > > Cheers, > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Nov 17 13:05:22 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 19:05:22 +0000 Subject: DELUA technical manual, VAX diagnostic Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA018590616F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> We have a crumbling DELUA in the VAX-11/780-5 at LCM. There is a copy of the *User's* Manual at Bitsavers, but not the *Technical* Manual. Does anyone happen to have a copy lining the hamster cage floor, vel sim.? The User's Manual refers to a diagnostic, EVDYB, which "runs under the VAX diagnostic supervisor (VDS)." Does anyone here have either of those things, or pointers to them? In the mean time, I'm going to try to get the PDP-11/70 to run CZUAD from a simulated TU58, but I'm told that getting the DELUA into and out of the crowded Unibus backplane is an exercise in bloodletting. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Nov 17 13:50:46 2014 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 20:50:46 +0100 Subject: DELUA technical manual, VAX diagnostic In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA018590616F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA018590616F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rich Alderson Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 8:05 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: DELUA technical manual, VAX diagnostic We have a crumbling DELUA in the VAX-11/780-5 at LCM. There is a copy of the *User's* Manual at Bitsavers, but not the *Technical* Manual. Does anyone happen to have a copy lining the hamster cage floor, vel sim.? The User's Manual refers to a diagnostic, EVDYB, which "runs under the VAX diagnostic supervisor (VDS)." Does anyone here have either of those things, or pointers to them? In the mean time, I'm going to try to get the PDP-11/70 to run CZUAD from a simulated TU58, but I'm told that getting the DELUA into and out of the crowded Unibus backplane is an exercise in bloodletting. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ --- I have an RA82 with "VAX diagnostics" on it, but I will need several months before I will be able to access that drive (problems with the VAX-11/750 console line). I only have the User Manual (original version not a copy). Insertion and removal of the DELUA is not more difficult than an RL11. Maybe the DELUA is even easier to insert and remove than an RL11, because the RL11 has a 40-pin BERG header at the *top* side of the module, whereas the DELUA has a smaller (16-pin?) header at the *front*, so the connection cable to the bulkhead is easier to connect on a DELUA. Both boards are "hex", so a bit of "wiggling" helps to get all 6 edge connectors aligned for the backplane slot. - Henk, PA8PDP From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 17 13:55:18 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 14:55:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141117195518.40A0018C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair > I did not have a jumper on W4, so I added one Err, adding jumper W4 _disables_ the LTC interrupt; see pg. 324-325 of the "Microcomputers and Memories Handbook (1982)". (Since you were apparently seeing LTC interrupts before, it makes sense that the prior state of the board had them enabled...) If you don't have that book, worth picking one up on eBay - full of all sorts of useful info. > The test I can't run .. is the JKDBDO CPU test. When I try to run this > one it doesn't print anything and drops me to ODT at 037526. Hmm. Probably need listings, or something, to figure out what it's unhappy about. The only documentation I could find online is the "PDP-11 Diagnostic Handbook", and various copies of the content there, and it's not very detailed. (BTW, it's probably 'JKDBD0', not "JKDBDO".) > The BDV11 manual says they are controlled through a register via > software, so maybe I'm just not running anything that sets them. That would be my guess too. > The only boot rom I have on the BDV11 is a TU58 boot loader, so if it's > up to some other boot rom to set that LED register More likely the system software, not the ROM. Noel From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 17 14:19:51 2014 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 14:19:51 -0600 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A contemporary band recently released a CD without a reflective layer. My son asked me about ways it might be read. It looks completely clear but when tilted in the light you can see the rainbow of recorded material. I believe it's a data CD, not audio, as statements from the band hint it contains the MP3s of their previous four albums. (Why did the band do this? They said they were making an artistic statement about the nature of and longevity of CDs, and as a puzzle to their fans. The other half of the package was on a second CD in an uncommon format known as "Mini-Max", where it is an ordinary-sized CD but only the center 3" is silvered, giving it a distinctive look.) I asked a friend who was an engineer at a 3M pressing plant in 1986-88. He said that early CD-ROM drives could read a CD that didn't have a reflective layer. He thought these drives had some of the first Phillips and Sony mechanisms. He said they read discs like this "all the time" in the production process. He also thought there were a few "novelty" cealer discs produced this way in those early days. He thought that by today's standards, these first-gen readers had lasers that were overpowered and the gain circuitry more sensitive, so they were able to read the un-aluminumized pits in the pressed polycarbonate. I believe I first acquired a CD-ROM drive in 1988 or so. I may even still have it, but I've yet to hunt for it in my storage. I don't remember the brand of its internals. On eBay I see old Phillips CD reading mechanisms selling for astounding prices of more than $500, as they're used by equally astoundingly-priced ($3,000-5,000) high-end CD players such as the Studer brand. Bits is bits, you'd think, but as usual, not for the high-end audio enthusiast. http://www.thevintageknob.org/THEVAULT1/D730/D730.html The same mechanisms were used in the first CD-ROm readers for PCs such as the Phillips CM100. I believe this CD has its top-coat of acrylic / lacquer. I think that adding a reflective layer at this point (such a shiny paint) wouldn't affect the readability of the pits (and that spray-paint would probably melt the lacquer.) As I understand it, the depth of the pits are about a fifth of the wavelength of the light used to read them, so the detector sees a phase shift. Does anyone remember if first-gen CD drives had such super-powers? Does anyone remember any clear pressed CDs? Any advice on how this clear CD might be read? - John From bensinc at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 14:38:20 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 14:38:20 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141117195518.40A0018C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141117195518.40A0018C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Now I'm confused again! If I setup the BDV11 to control the LTC interrupt, should I have W4 in or out? This information on the JKDBD0 test says it will halt and store information in memory, and to refer to the microfiche to find out what happened. However, it also says it will print that banner message, but I don't see that. I believe it's not even starting the test, but I'm not 100% sure. On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ben Sinclair > > > I did not have a jumper on W4, so I added one > > Err, adding jumper W4 _disables_ the LTC interrupt; see pg. 324-325 of the > "Microcomputers and Memories Handbook (1982)". (Since you were apparently > seeing LTC interrupts before, it makes sense that the prior state of the > board had them enabled...) If you don't have that book, worth picking one > up > on eBay - full of all sorts of useful info. > > > The test I can't run .. is the JKDBDO CPU test. When I try to run > this > > one it doesn't print anything and drops me to ODT at 037526. > > Hmm. Probably need listings, or something, to figure out what it's unhappy > about. The only documentation I could find online is the "PDP-11 Diagnostic > Handbook", and various copies of the content there, and it's not very > detailed. (BTW, it's probably 'JKDBD0', not "JKDBDO".) > > > The BDV11 manual says they are controlled through a register via > > software, so maybe I'm just not running anything that sets them. > > That would be my guess too. > > > The only boot rom I have on the BDV11 is a TU58 boot loader, so if > it's > > up to some other boot rom to set that LED register > > More likely the system software, not the ROM. > > Noel > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 14:47:27 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 12:47:27 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141117195518.40A0018C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Nov 17, 2014 12:38 PM, "Ben Sinclair" wrote: > > Now I'm confused again! If I setup the BDV11 to control the LTC interrupt, > should I have W4 in or out? > Yeah, I think I was confused about that. I think you would normally have the BDV11 configured so that the BEVENT bus signal is under software control so that you don't need to use the front panel Aux switch to disable BEVENT. But you would normally always have W4 removed on the M8186 so that interrupts occur when BEVENT is enabled on the bus. The exception would be if you had something like an M8016 KPV11 which generates its own LTC interrupts. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Nov 17 14:51:55 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 15:51:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > As I understand it, the depth of the pits are about a fifth of the > wavelength of the light used to read them, so the detector sees a > phase shift. I thought the pits were, in theory, 1/4 wavelength deep, so that the reflection from the pit is 180 degrees out of phase with the reflection from the surrounding area, producing destructive interference (ie, manifesting as a drop in reflectivity). Of course, .25 is about .2.... I don't understand why this technique was used. Perhaps it's easier/cheaper to produce a nonsmooth surface made of a uniform material than to produce a smooth surface of a nonuniform material? (That's the other way I'd expect to produce reflectivity variations.) Is it possible that it's clear only in visible light, with some sort of reflective layer present in the (infrared, IIRC) wavelengths used? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bensinc at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 14:52:09 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 14:52:09 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141117195518.40A0018C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Thanks! I'll pull the jumper from W4 and leave the rest the way it is. I believe with that it will be under software control. On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Nov 17, 2014 12:38 PM, "Ben Sinclair" wrote: > > > > Now I'm confused again! If I setup the BDV11 to control the LTC > interrupt, > > should I have W4 in or out? > > > > Yeah, I think I was confused about that. I think you would normally have > the BDV11 configured so that the BEVENT bus signal is under software > control so that you don't need to use the front panel Aux switch to disable > BEVENT. But you would normally always have W4 removed on the M8186 so that > interrupts occur when BEVENT is enabled on the bus. The exception would be > if you had something like an M8016 KPV11 which generates its own LTC > interrupts. > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 17 14:55:49 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 15:55:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141117205549.0700A18C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair > If I setup the BDV11 to control the LTC interrupt, should I have W4 in > or out? If you have W4 in, you can do whatever you want on the BDV11, with the front panel LTC ('Aux') switch, etc, and it won't make a difference - the machine will not do LTC interrupts, no way, no how! :-) If W4 is out, _and_ the LTC switch on the front panel is on, _and_ the BDV11 is set up to control the LTC, then the machine will boot with the LTC off, and the LTC can be turned on by the software (by storing a '0100' in 177546). > I'm currently only running with the CPU, memory, and serial boards > installed. Oh, one other thing to pay attention to: not all DEC backplanes have termination QBUS pull-up resistors. The H9270 and H9373 (normal equippage in the BA-11M and BA-11N boxes, respectively), for instance, do not. Those machines need something at the end of the bus to provide the termination/pull-up - such as a BDV11 or an REV11. And then we get to 18 and 22 bit busses... :-) Noel From matt at 9track.net Mon Nov 17 14:59:12 2014 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 20:59:12 +0000 Subject: DELUA technical manual, VAX diagnostic In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA018590616F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA018590616F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <546A61A0.8020807@9track.net> On 17/11/2014 19:05, Rich Alderson wrote: > We have a crumbling DELUA in the VAX-11/780-5 at LCM. There is a copy of > the *User's* Manual at Bitsavers, but not the *Technical* Manual. Does > anyone happen to have a copy lining the hamster cage floor, vel sim.? > > The User's Manual refers to a diagnostic, EVDYB, which "runs under the VAX > diagnostic supervisor (VDS)." Does anyone here have either of those things, > or pointers to them? In the mean time, I'm going to try to get the PDP-11/70 > to run CZUAD from a simulated TU58, but I'm told that getting the DELUA into > and out of the crowded Unibus backplane is an exercise in bloodletting. > > You can get the VAX-11 diagnostics tape here: ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/vax_dists/vax11780diagnostics_vaxsim.tap.bz2 Copy the tape to your system disk (example with a TS11 drive): $ BACKUP MS0:/SAV SYS$SYSDEVICE:[*...] /LOG The diagnostics live in [SYS0.SYSMAINT]. If you boot from your system disk with R5 flags set to '10' it will boot to the diagnostic supervisor. You need to attach several devices before you can see the filesystem e.g.: DS> ATTACH KA785 SBI KA0 DS> ATTACH DW780 SBI DW0 DS> ATTACH UDA50 DW0 DUA DS> ATTACH RA82 DUA DUA0 DS> DIR DUA0:[SYS0.SYSMAINT] DS> RUN DUA0:[SYS0.SYSMAINT]EVDYB The help is in [SYS0.SYSMAINT]EVDYB.HLP I think you can also copy a subset of the diagnostics to a console floppy and boot from that. You won't have to attach the disk controller in that case. Matt From shadoooo at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 15:07:53 2014 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 22:07:53 +0100 Subject: VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK Message-ID: Hello Adrian, I can't come to uk to take up the stuff, but still I'm very interested to unibus (possibly qbus) boards. Do you think you could add some to the box of the SDI disks you have there for me, when possible? Thanks in advance Andrea From bensinc at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 15:12:07 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 15:12:07 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141117205549.0700A18C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141117205549.0700A18C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: That all makes sense now! I should be running as you described since I removed the W4 jumper. I mis-typed on the list of boards... I always have the BDV11 in! On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:55 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ben Sinclair > > > If I setup the BDV11 to control the LTC interrupt, should I have W4 > in > > or out? > > If you have W4 in, you can do whatever you want on the BDV11, with the > front > panel LTC ('Aux') switch, etc, and it won't make a difference - the machine > will not do LTC interrupts, no way, no how! :-) > > If W4 is out, _and_ the LTC switch on the front panel is on, _and_ the > BDV11 > is set up to control the LTC, then the machine will boot with the LTC off, > and the LTC can be turned on by the software (by storing a '0100' in > 177546). > > > I'm currently only running with the CPU, memory, and serial boards > > installed. > > Oh, one other thing to pay attention to: not all DEC backplanes have > termination QBUS pull-up resistors. The H9270 and H9373 (normal equippage > in > the BA-11M and BA-11N boxes, respectively), for instance, do not. Those > machines need something at the end of the bus to provide the > termination/pull-up - such as a BDV11 or an REV11. > > And then we get to 18 and 22 bit busses... :-) > > Noel > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net Mon Nov 17 13:26:51 2014 From: alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net (Alex McWhirter) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 14:26:51 -0500 Subject: 5.25" SCSI Drives Message-ID: Does anyone need any of these drives? I have 18 of them that I don't need and are just taking up room. Anyone who's willing to pay for shipping can have some or all of them. I can only power test them at the moment. Some are regular 8 bit SCSI 50 pin, and some are 16 bit wide SCSI 68 pin. Sent from my iPhone From simski at dds.nl Mon Nov 17 14:37:06 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 21:37:06 +0100 Subject: TI Silent 709 convert to 703? Message-ID: <546A5C72.4010506@dds.nl> Hello there, we have a Silent 709 with external modem, connected through a db25M on the machine. is it vey different from a 703 with just a RS232 connection? is this convertible to RS232? -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From scaron at umich.edu Mon Nov 17 15:23:31 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 16:23:31 -0500 Subject: 5.25" SCSI Drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Alex, I might be interested in a few 50-pin drives if they're in that 400M-2G sweet spot size-wise. What's the vendor on them? Some chance they work? :) Thanks, Sean On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Alex McWhirter wrote: > Does anyone need any of these drives? I have 18 of them that I don't need > and are just taking up room. Anyone who's willing to pay for shipping can > have some or all of them. I can only power test them at the moment. Some > are regular 8 bit SCSI 50 pin, and some are 16 bit wide SCSI 68 pin. > > Sent from my iPhone From dmhills at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 17:57:41 2014 From: dmhills at gmail.com (Don Hills) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 12:57:41 +1300 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: I think you're actually more likely to be able to read it in modern drives, which are designed to handle lower reflectivity as found on burnt CD-R and CD-R/W discs. On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Mouse wrote: > > As I understand it, the depth of the pits are about a fifth of the > > wavelength of the light used to read them, so the detector sees a > > phase shift. > > I thought the pits were, in theory, 1/4 wavelength deep, so that the > reflection from the pit is 180 degrees out of phase with the reflection > from the surrounding area, producing destructive interference (ie, > manifesting as a drop in reflectivity). Of course, .25 is about .2.... > > I don't understand why this technique was used. Perhaps it's > easier/cheaper to produce a nonsmooth surface made of a uniform > material than to produce a smooth surface of a nonuniform material? > (That's the other way I'd expect to produce reflectivity variations.) > > Is it possible that it's clear only in visible light, with some sort of > reflective layer present in the (infrared, IIRC) wavelengths used? > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 18:07:31 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 18:07:31 -0600 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: Slap a layer of Mylar on the back and give it a shot..? Might even work with something of lower reflectivity, like white paper.. On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 5:57 PM, Don Hills wrote: > I think you're actually more likely to be able to read it in modern drives, > which are designed to handle lower reflectivity as found on burnt CD-R and > CD-R/W discs. > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Mouse wrote: > > > > As I understand it, the depth of the pits are about a fifth of the > > > wavelength of the light used to read them, so the detector sees a > > > phase shift. > > > > I thought the pits were, in theory, 1/4 wavelength deep, so that the > > reflection from the pit is 180 degrees out of phase with the reflection > > from the surrounding area, producing destructive interference (ie, > > manifesting as a drop in reflectivity). Of course, .25 is about .2.... > > > > I don't understand why this technique was used. Perhaps it's > > easier/cheaper to produce a nonsmooth surface made of a uniform > > material than to produce a smooth surface of a nonuniform material? > > (That's the other way I'd expect to produce reflectivity variations.) > > > > Is it possible that it's clear only in visible light, with some sort of > > reflective layer present in the (infrared, IIRC) wavelengths used? > > > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > > \ / Ribbon Campaign > > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 17 20:12:15 2014 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 18:12:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for a Linux-usable EPROM programmer Message-ID: I've come across a program called "geepro" for burning EPROMs under Linux, but I've yet to identify a known-good programmer. Could someone please recommend one? Geepro's documentation says that it supports the Willem 4.0. On Ebay I see the "GQ-4X" which is claimed to be a "Willem Universal". Will that work? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 17 20:30:49 2014 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 18:30:49 -0800 Subject: Looking for a Linux-usable EPROM programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A0877CE-84EA-4020-AC89-6C00B2254103@aracnet.com> Great question! Alternatively, is it possible to run the Willem windows software via Parallels on a Mac? I can't find my older Willem programmer, and may just bite the bullet and upgrade to one of the current models. The only problem is, I no longer have an actual Windows system around here, and haven't since 2010. :-) Zane On Nov 17, 2014, at 6:12 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I've come across a program called "geepro" for burning EPROMs under Linux, but I've yet to identify a known-good programmer. Could someone please recommend one? Geepro's documentation says that it supports the Willem 4.0. On Ebay I see the "GQ-4X" which is claimed to be a "Willem Universal". Will that work? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 17 20:40:53 2014 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 18:40:53 -0800 Subject: Coleco Adam Message-ID: <773FBCFD-43CC-4A2B-B436-B5A73703A835@aracnet.com> After searching since the late-90's, in the last month I've finally had some real luck on the Coleco front. First I got a ColecoVision, and then this last Saturday I was able to get a Coleco Adam quite reasonably. In doing some research I've learned that I should be able to replace the printer with an Arcade power-supply that supplies +12V, +5V, and -5V. I also see that I can get a IDE/CF adapter that lets me use a CF card as a drive. Now for my questions, what software is available for the Adam that can make use of a CF card 'disk drive'? Also, I gather that the system will erase any magnetic media when turned on or off? What is it that actually does this, is it the power supply, cassette drive, or something else? Zane From scaron at umich.edu Mon Nov 17 20:52:43 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 21:52:43 -0500 Subject: Looking for a Linux-usable EPROM programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know if it works in Linux (I just have an old XP laptop I keep near the bench to run programmers) but I do have a GQ-4X and it works great... real nice little EPROM burner. I think it's definitely worth it over the el-cheapo ones. Best, Sean On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 9:12 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I've come across a program called "geepro" for burning EPROMs under Linux, > but I've yet to identify a known-good programmer. Could someone please > recommend one? Geepro's documentation says that it supports the Willem > 4.0. On Ebay I see the "GQ-4X" which is claimed to be a "Willem > Universal". Will that work? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Nov 17 22:38:49 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 20:38:49 -0800 Subject: Looking for a Linux-usable EPROM programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <546ACD59.9060108@jwsss.com> Biggest problem you will probably have with the willem programmers is whether the thing will work with your pile and properly work with a physical parallel port. That is the biggest barrier to that programming hardware I now of. There are past discussions (which can be found on archive.org for now if need be) discussing what will and won't work with vm support, and with usb to parallel converters. Thanks Jim On 11/17/2014 6:52 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > I don't know if it works in Linux (I just have an old XP laptop I keep near > the bench to run programmers) but I do have a GQ-4X and it works great... > real nice little EPROM burner. I think it's definitely worth it over the > el-cheapo ones. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 9:12 PM, David Griffith > wrote: > >> I've come across a program called "geepro" for burning EPROMs under Linux, >> but I've yet to identify a known-good programmer. Could someone please >> recommend one? Geepro's documentation says that it supports the Willem >> 4.0. On Ebay I see the "GQ-4X" which is claimed to be a "Willem >> Universal". Will that work? >> >> -- >> David Griffith >> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu >> > From isking at uw.edu Mon Nov 17 23:15:44 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 21:15:44 -0800 Subject: 5.25" SCSI Drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shipping from where? I wouldn't mind picking up a couple. Thanks! -- Ian On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:23 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Hi Alex, > > I might be interested in a few 50-pin drives if they're in that 400M-2G > sweet spot size-wise. What's the vendor on them? Some chance they work? :) > > Thanks, > > Sean > > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Alex McWhirter < > alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net > > wrote: > > > Does anyone need any of these drives? I have 18 of them that I don't need > > and are just taking up room. Anyone who's willing to pay for shipping can > > have some or all of them. I can only power test them at the moment. Some > > are regular 8 bit SCSI 50 pin, and some are 16 bit wide SCSI 68 pin. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS Ph.D. Candidate The Information School University of Washington An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From isking at uw.edu Mon Nov 17 23:15:44 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 21:15:44 -0800 Subject: 5.25" SCSI Drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shipping from where? I wouldn't mind picking up a couple. Thanks! -- Ian On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:23 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Hi Alex, > > I might be interested in a few 50-pin drives if they're in that 400M-2G > sweet spot size-wise. What's the vendor on them? Some chance they work? :) > > Thanks, > > Sean > > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Alex McWhirter < > alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net > > wrote: > > > Does anyone need any of these drives? I have 18 of them that I don't need > > and are just taking up room. Anyone who's willing to pay for shipping can > > have some or all of them. I can only power test them at the moment. Some > > are regular 8 bit SCSI 50 pin, and some are 16 bit wide SCSI 68 pin. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS Ph.D. Candidate The Information School University of Washington An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From isking at uw.edu Mon Nov 17 23:29:41 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 21:29:41 -0800 Subject: VAXen in Hawai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This article disturbs me. There are social solutions as well as tech solutions - and are they destined to be yet another suckler upon the never-ending upgrade teat that is Microsoft? Here's hoping that as they determine what must be migrated, they consider open-source solutions that create local jobs, rather than paying rent to Redmond. On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 4:50 AM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > Civil Bytes: Our New Governor Should Upgrade State?s Sorry Technology > > > http://www.civilbeat.com/2014/11/civil-bytes-our-new-governor-should-upgrade-states-sorry-technology/ > > -- > Stephane > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS Ph.D. Candidate The Information School University of Washington An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From isking at uw.edu Mon Nov 17 23:29:41 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 21:29:41 -0800 Subject: VAXen in Hawai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This article disturbs me. There are social solutions as well as tech solutions - and are they destined to be yet another suckler upon the never-ending upgrade teat that is Microsoft? Here's hoping that as they determine what must be migrated, they consider open-source solutions that create local jobs, rather than paying rent to Redmond. On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 4:50 AM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > Civil Bytes: Our New Governor Should Upgrade State?s Sorry Technology > > > http://www.civilbeat.com/2014/11/civil-bytes-our-new-governor-should-upgrade-states-sorry-technology/ > > -- > Stephane > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS Ph.D. Candidate The Information School University of Washington An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 00:27:52 2014 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 00:27:52 -0600 Subject: DECwriter II in NH Message-ID: Not mine, just spotted while trolling Craigslist: http://nh.craigslist.org/sys/4731917401.html From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Nov 18 01:07:06 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 08:07:06 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141111121144.F3EF818C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20141118070706.GA36804@beast.freibergnet.de> Glen Slick wrote: > On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 7:44 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > Well, I just discovered something interesting... What exactly does the aux > > switch on the front panel control? I assumed it was power to the AC plug on > > the back of the machine, but it must do something else. With aux in the > > down position, it again boots to XXDP! If I flip it up and restart, it > > drops back to ODT after trying to boot XXDP from the TU58. > > > > From the documentation, I don't see that it does anything other than > > control that AC plug. > > > > Take a look at the 11/03-L Front Panel schematic on page 19 of this > scan of the BA11-S Field Maintenance Print Set: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP01233_BA11-S_schem_Mar81.pdf > > If jumpers W1 and W2 are installed on the front panel PCB then the > BEVENT line will be pulled down to ground when the AUX switch is in > the OFF position and I believe that will disable the CPU from > receiving LTC interrupts. > > Maybe your system is having issues handling LTC interrupts. > > I have one BA11-S with jumpers W1 and W2 installed on the front panel > PCB and another one with those two jumpers removed, so check your > front panel PCB to be sure whether or not they are installed, but it > sounds like they must be in your case if the position of the AUX > switch causes a behavior change. > > -Glen So far as I remember ifrom my own exeperiments this behavior is pretty much normal. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Nov 17 17:09:48 2014 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 23:09:48 +0000 Subject: Oh! I forgot (was )VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There?s also a pristine RL02 and RA60 and some TZ877s, couple of TS05s. I?m guessing the tape drives will be less collectable though. If anyone wants a couple of LP25s they?re welcome to them :) Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? ------ Forwarded Message From: Adrian Graham Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 17:02:24 +0000 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK Folks, Thanks to building reductions we're having to offload all our old VAX kit and I'd much rather see it go to someone who can use them, even as spares. There's also a load of UNIBUS and QBUS spares, too many to list. Big stuff: VAX 7710, various processors + memory AlphaServer GS60e Possibly VAX 6610 Less big stuff: Alpha 2100 + spares Alpha 2000 Alpha 800 Alpha 1000 x3 AlphaStation 2xx x4 (spares only) 2 MicroVAX 2000 Various VAXstations, 3100s etc + spares Several BA415 VAXen, 3400/3800/4200/4300 VAXstation 4000s Possibly an Alpha1200 and DS20 (big box version) Collection only, obviously these things are HEAVY. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk ------ End of Forwarded Message From digitgraph at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 20:22:18 2014 From: digitgraph at gmail.com (John Kaur) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 19:22:18 -0700 Subject: 5.25" SCSI Drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interested in SCSI Drives, Where in the US are you, I'm in AZ. Thanks, John Kaur> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Hi Alex, > > I might be interested in a few 50-pin drives if they're in that 400M-2G > sweet spot size-wise. What's the vendor on them? Some chance they work? :) > > Thanks, > > Sean > > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Alex McWhirter < > alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net > > wrote: > > > Does anyone need any of these drives? I have 18 of them that I don't need > > and are just taking up room. Anyone who's willing to pay for shipping can > > have some or all of them. I can only power test them at the moment. Some > > are regular 8 bit SCSI 50 pin, and some are 16 bit wide SCSI 68 pin. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Nov 18 00:39:30 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 22:39:30 -0800 Subject: DELUA technical manual, VAX diagnostic In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA018590616F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA018590616F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <546AE9A2.1090300@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-17 11:05, Rich Alderson wrote: > We have a crumbling DELUA in the VAX-11/780-5 at LCM. There is a copy of > the *User's* Manual at Bitsavers, but not the *Technical* Manual. Does > anyone happen to have a copy lining the hamster cage floor, vel sim.? > > The User's Manual refers to a diagnostic, EVDYB, which "runs under the VAX > diagnostic supervisor (VDS)." Does anyone here have either of those things, > or pointers to them? In the mean time, I'm going to try to get the PDP-11/70 > to run CZUAD from a simulated TU58, but I'm told that getting the DELUA into > and out of the crowded Unibus backplane is an exercise in bloodletting. Don't have the manual. I *might* have the diagnostics. I need to check when I'm back in Seattle in a couple of days. What is "crumbling" about the DELUA? Johnny From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Nov 18 02:36:16 2014 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 08:36:16 +0000 Subject: Coleco Adam In-Reply-To: <773FBCFD-43CC-4A2B-B436-B5A73703A835@aracnet.com> References: <773FBCFD-43CC-4A2B-B436-B5A73703A835@aracnet.com> Message-ID: I was going to say, they are probably hard to find because they've set fire to the living rooms of the former owners. (: My friend had one back in the day. The printer was really impressive... it sounded like a machine gun being fired in your house. On 18 November 2014 02:40, Zane Healy wrote: > After searching since the late-90's, in the last month I've finally had some real luck on the Coleco front. First I got a ColecoVision, and then this last Saturday I was able to get a Coleco Adam quite reasonably. > > In doing some research I've learned that I should be able to replace the printer with an Arcade power-supply that supplies +12V, +5V, and -5V. I also see that I can get a IDE/CF adapter that lets me use a CF card as a drive. > > Now for my questions, what software is available for the Adam that can make use of a CF card 'disk drive'? Also, I gather that the system will erase any magnetic media when turned on or off? What is it that actually does this, is it the power supply, cassette drive, or something else? > > Zane > > > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 03:23:51 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 01:23:51 -0800 Subject: Looking for: Parts keyboard for chicklet PET (or just a "-" keycap) Message-ID: <546B1027.5000906@gmail.com> Made good progress with the PET; after fixing the video I got the reset circuit humming again (a bad ceramic cap on the 555 trigger circuit) and it fired right up after that, much to my surprise. And only 4 of the 18 6550 RAMs are bad :). Replaced a few terrible sockets and it's running reliably, albeit with only 6K of RAM. The keyboard on this thing has suffered some abuse; the "-" keycap on the numeric keypad has been broken off. I figure it's a long shot, but does anyone happen to have a spare "parts" quality keyboard they'd be willing to sacrifice a "-" key from? Thanks, Josh From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 18 07:33:51 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 08:33:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK Message-ID: <20141118133351.E561518C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: shadoooo > still I'm very interested to unibus (possibly qbus) boards. Actually, if someone in the UK wanted to be rewarded with a modest fee, I'd happily pay for them to go pick up all the cards and ship them to me (in the USA). Any I don't need I'd be happy to pass along. No matter what, they shouldn't go in the dumpster/recycle, if at all possible! Noel From anders at abc80.net Tue Nov 18 07:07:51 2014 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 14:07:51 +0100 Subject: Addmaster 608 documentation? Message-ID: Does anyone has schematics/manuals on the Addmaster 608 paper tape reader? /Anders From bensinc at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 08:45:51 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 08:45:51 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141118070706.GA36804@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141111121144.F3EF818C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141118070706.GA36804@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: Hi Holm, which behavior are you referring to? The CPU test? I do find it strange that everything else seems to work great! I feel like it should pass that test though. On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 1:07 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Glen Slick wrote: > > > On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 7:44 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > > Well, I just discovered something interesting... What exactly does the > aux > > > switch on the front panel control? I assumed it was power to the AC > plug on > > > the back of the machine, but it must do something else. With aux in the > > > down position, it again boots to XXDP! If I flip it up and restart, it > > > drops back to ODT after trying to boot XXDP from the TU58. > > > > > > From the documentation, I don't see that it does anything other than > > > control that AC plug. > > > > > > > Take a look at the 11/03-L Front Panel schematic on page 19 of this > > scan of the BA11-S Field Maintenance Print Set: > > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP01233_BA11-S_schem_Mar81.pdf > > > > If jumpers W1 and W2 are installed on the front panel PCB then the > > BEVENT line will be pulled down to ground when the AUX switch is in > > the OFF position and I believe that will disable the CPU from > > receiving LTC interrupts. > > > > Maybe your system is having issues handling LTC interrupts. > > > > I have one BA11-S with jumpers W1 and W2 installed on the front panel > > PCB and another one with those two jumpers removed, so check your > > front panel PCB to be sure whether or not they are installed, but it > > sounds like they must be in your case if the position of the AUX > > switch causes a behavior change. > > > > -Glen > > > So far as I remember ifrom my own exeperiments this behavior is pretty > much normal. > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 18 08:45:52 2014 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 08:45:52 -0600 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: At 05:57 PM 11/17/2014, Don Hills wrote: >I think you're actually more likely to be able to read it in modern drives, >which are designed to handle lower reflectivity as found on burnt CD-R and >CD-R/W discs. So far, no luck on that front. I think it would require a tweak in firmware. At 06:07 PM 11/17/2014, drlegendre . wrote: >Slap a layer of Mylar on the back and give it a shot..? Might even work >with something of lower reflectivity, like white paper.. Adding a reflective layer to the back was a first and obvious idea, but upon deeper reflection I don't think it's the right answer. The pits receive the sputtered aluminum. If adding a backing layer was the answer, you'd think CD-ROMs would've been made that way in the first place, as it's easier. It's not a matter of boosting reflectivity in general, it's about accentuating the difference between pits and lands. (I tried Krylon "Looking Glass" spray paint on a couple test discs. Although this paint does a wonderful job of mirror-izing glass, it turns out more gray on plastic.) If the anecdote about early CD drives being able to read non-aluminized discs is true (and I believe the stories) then it would seem the answer would be to find a drive that used the old Phillips read heads and somehow ask it to dump a raw image of the bits it finds, in order to allow another system to interpret the image. High Sierra wasn't adopted until late 1986, and ISO-9660 after that. The CM100 apparently only works on PC and XT era hardware. I saw mentions on the web that even a 25 Mhz PC is incompatible. At 02:51 PM 11/17/2014, Mouse wrote: >I don't understand why this technique was used. Perhaps it's >easier/cheaper to produce a nonsmooth surface made of a uniform >material than to produce a smooth surface of a nonuniform material? I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Wikipedia has an explanation of the process: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc_manufacturing >Is it possible that it's clear only in visible light, with some sort of >reflective layer present in the (infrared, IIRC) wavelengths used? The pits surface is normally aluminized and then covered with some sort of acrylic or lacquer. I too wondered if there's not some optical characteristic of that boundary that could work like aluminum. But as you mentioned, detection normally uses the phase shift, and that's dependent on the frequency of the light. You'd need to develop an entirely different optical path. - John From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 18 09:30:20 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 10:30:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: <20141118150057.E25472073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150057.E25472073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <201411181530.KAA01189@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> [John Foust, quoting me] >> I don't understand why this technique was used. Perhaps it's >> easier/cheaper to produce a nonsmooth surface made of a uniform >> material than to produce a smooth surface of a nonuniform material? > I'm not quite sure what you mean here. The goal is changes in reflectivity on a fairly small scale. There's no reason in principle this couldn't be done with a smooth surface by making the surface not all the same material. (A larger-scale example of this is ink on paper: inked paper reflects less light than un-inked paper does.) I was speculating that, on the scales of interest here, it's easier/cheaper to produce a non-smooth surface of a uniform material (how pressed CDs are actually made) than to produce a smooth surface of a nonuniform material (the alternative). > Wikipedia has an explanation of the process: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc_manufacturing Yes, but it does not discuss why that process was chosen over various alternatives. >> Is it possible that it's clear only in visible light, with some sort >> of reflective layer present in the (infrared, IIRC) wavelengths >> used? > But as you mentioned, detection normally uses the phase shift, and > that's dependent on the frequency of the light. Yes, but I think the light normally used for CD reading is outside the visible range. This raises the possibility that the disc might be clear in the visible range but not in the range used for reading. Your experience trying to read it argues against that, though. Oh well, it was a nice theory while it lasted. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 18 09:40:14 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 10:40:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: 5.25" SCSI Drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201411181540.KAA13738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Subject: 5.25" SCSI Drives > Does anyone need any of these drives? I have 18 of them that I don't need an$ 5.25" 68-pin drives? That's quite the novelty - I'm curious about maker and model and such. I thought 68-pin didn't show up until 5.25" had been abandoned in favour of...3.5", I think it is? I just measured some and they're actually about 4" wide - perhaps 3.5" is the platter diameter or something. (I just measured a `5.25"' drive here and it's almost 6" wide; IIRC the 5.25" dimension came from floppies, where medium size instead of case size or drive size is a plausible measurement.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 18 09:48:25 2014 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 09:48:25 -0600 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: <201411181530.KAA01189@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150057.E25472073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411181530.KAA01189@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: At 09:30 AM 11/18/2014, Mouse wrote: >I was speculating that, on the scales >of interest here, it's easier/cheaper to produce a non-smooth surface >of a uniform material (how pressed CDs are actually made) than to >produce a smooth surface of a nonuniform material (the alternative). I see... you're asking why CDs couldn't be made with a printing process (ink on paper being effectively smooth) as opposed to the non-smooth method of pits and lands. On one hand, it almost sounds like you've re-invented CD-R, where a dye gets zapped and changes its reflectivity - but I was surprised to read that even CD-Rs have a single spiral "pre-groove" pressed into the polycarbonate. You'd need a rather precise printing process to make tiny spots. >Yes, but I think the light normally used for CD reading is outside the >visible range. This raises the possibility that the disc might be >clear in the visible range but not in the range used for reading. >Your experience trying to read it argues against that, though. Oh >well, it was a nice theory while it lasted. At this point, I only hold out hope for finding an existing reader that can see the pits, and the best candidate seems to be the oldest readers, not the newest. I can't help but think this is an important topic for data recovery. A peeled reflective layer is a common failure mode for discs. If there was a way to dissolve everything above the pits (the label and aluminum) and recoat with acrylic for protection, and read a clear CD, you could rescue failed CDs. - John From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Nov 18 10:09:18 2014 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 17:09:18 +0100 Subject: VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141118160917.GA8445@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2014-11-17 17:02:24 +0000, Adrian Graham wrote: > Folks, > > Thanks to building reductions we're having to offload all our old VAX kit > and I'd much rather see it go to someone who can use them, even as spares. > There's also a load of UNIBUS and QBUS spares, too many to list. > > Big stuff: > > VAX 7710, various processors + memory > AlphaServer GS60e > Possibly VAX 6610 I would *love* to get my hands on the larger VAXen. It would be such a pity if they'd to to the scrapper... I do even have space and three-phase power for thembut I see no straight-forward way to ship them over here... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Wenn ich wach bin, tr?ume ich. the second : From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 10:16:15 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 11:16:15 -0500 Subject: Big VAX shipping in Europe Message-ID: > I would *love* to get my hands on the larger VAXen. It would be such > a pity if they'd to to the scrapper... I do even have space and > three-phase power for thembut I see no straight-forward way to ship > them over here... OK, I am curious. No, I am not interested in the machines (unless it was a VAX 9000). How much could one reasonable expect to pay for getting a big VAX, lets say a 350 kg in the typical DEC cabinet, from mainland Europe to Britain? Or from Britain to mainland Europe? Or even to and from Scandinavia? Sure, one could hire movers and riggers - pay them enough and they will deliver a locomotive - but what about typical on-the-cheap hobbyist methods? -- Will From scaron at umich.edu Tue Nov 18 10:31:54 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 11:31:54 -0500 Subject: Big VAX shipping in Europe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not sure how shipping works over in Europe and how the cost structure is organized, but I just had two BA23s loaded with cards and drives shipped to me from California to Michigan (around 2,600 miles) via palletized freight and it wasn't bad at all (thanks Bob!)... the bottom line shipping cost was around $190... around a dollar a pound. Of course, a VAX 6000 weighs significantly more than a few BA23s, LOL, but it might not be as bad as people think... certainly "freight" shipping wasn't as bad cost-wise as I had ever thought... there's a full ground route with the Chunnel, right? Best, Sean On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 11:16 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > > I would *love* to get my hands on the larger VAXen. It would be such > > a pity if they'd to to the scrapper... I do even have space and > > three-phase power for thembut I see no straight-forward way to ship > > them over here... > > OK, I am curious. No, I am not interested in the machines (unless it > was a VAX 9000). > > How much could one reasonable expect to pay for getting a big VAX, > lets say a 350 kg in the typical DEC cabinet, from mainland Europe to > Britain? Or from Britain to mainland Europe? Or even to and from > Scandinavia? > > Sure, one could hire movers and riggers - pay them enough and they > will deliver a locomotive - but what about typical on-the-cheap > hobbyist methods? > > -- > Will > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 10:39:21 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 11:39:21 -0500 Subject: Big VAX shipping in Europe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I'm not sure how shipping works over in Europe and how the cost structure > is organized, but I just had two BA23s loaded with cards and drives shipped > to me from California to Michigan (around 2,600 miles) via palletized > freight and it wasn't bad at all (thanks Bob!) Yes, seems reasonable. I am relatively well versed in the ways of US shipping, being that I have to keep an eye on it when I move things for people on my roadtrips. > I had ever thought... there's a full ground route with the Chunnel, right? Yes, but I have no idea how much it costs. Expensive, probably. -- Will From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Tue Nov 18 09:11:13 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 15:11:13 +0000 (WET) Subject: VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 17 Nov 2014 18:40:37 +0100" References: Message-ID: <01PF3NL7V7RE003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> > >Darn, if this was in The Netherlands, I'd be picking up *everything* >ASAP, for example THIS weekend! Especially the VAX 7710 and 6610. >I cannot rent a truck and make a trip to the UK :-< > Same problem here except in the opposite direction. It's (or I'm) on the wrong side of the Irish Sea :-( That Alphaserver GS60e is very tempting although there may be problems getting it around corners in the house and then there is the power issue. There is a three phase distribution transformer in my back yard but only a single phase supply to the house. Even if the power supply doesn't care if the three phases are wired together to a single phase supply, it looks like the starting surge would be a little bit on the high side anyway :-( Regards, Peter Coghlan. From scaron at umich.edu Tue Nov 18 10:15:09 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 11:15:09 -0500 Subject: VAXen in Hawai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, it does kind of sound like one of those places... On the other hand, I suppose it's nice to know that even in this late day and age, there's still some vintage gear to be found alive and kicking yet out in the wild! Collectors in HI keep your eyes peeled... it's probably pretty expensive to ship an 11/780 in from off the island ;) Best, Sean On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 12:29 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > This article disturbs me. There are social solutions as well as tech > solutions - and are they destined to be yet another suckler upon the > never-ending upgrade teat that is Microsoft? Here's hoping that as they > determine what must be migrated, they consider open-source solutions that > create local jobs, rather than paying rent to Redmond. > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 4:50 AM, St?phane Tsacas > > wrote: > > > Civil Bytes: Our New Governor Should Upgrade State?s Sorry Technology > > > > > > > http://www.civilbeat.com/2014/11/civil-bytes-our-new-governor-should-upgrade-states-sorry-technology/ > > > > -- > > Stephane > > > > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS > Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > University of Washington > > An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An > engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. > From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Nov 18 11:15:13 2014 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 18:15:13 +0100 Subject: Big VAX shipping in Europe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141118171513.GB8445@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2014-11-18 11:16:15 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > > I would *love* to get my hands on the larger VAXen. It would be such > > a pity if they'd to to the scrapper... I do even have space and > > three-phase power for thembut I see no straight-forward way to ship > > them over here... > > OK, I am curious. No, I am not interested in the machines (unless it > was a VAX 9000). > > How much could one reasonable expect to pay for getting a big VAX, > lets say a 350 kg in the typical DEC cabinet, from mainland Europe to > Britain? Or from Britain to mainland Europe? Or even to and from > Scandinavia? > > Sure, one could hire movers and riggers - pay them enough and they > will deliver a locomotive - but what about typical on-the-cheap > hobbyist methods? I had a 6320 shipped vom UK to Germany (cannot remember the exact origin), this was in the 700..800 ? range IIRC. And since I had to order the fright company, this was quite complicated. What I didn't expect is that they seem to somewhat refuse to accept orders from private persons. They want a company bedind that. I'm in the process of getting my hands on some shiny new space. So if anybody from Germany (I'm located in northern NRW) would like to join my effords, maybe we'd share on the shipping costs. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Ich hatte in letzter Zeit ein bi?chen viel Realitycheck. the second : Langsam m?chte ich mal wieder weitertr?umen k?nnen. -- Maximilian Wilhelm (18. Mai 2005, #lug-owl.de) From earl at baugh.org Tue Nov 18 13:24:21 2014 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 14:24:21 -0500 Subject: Proof they're still in service... Message-ID: The other day I was touring one of the HP support labs where they have a LARGE collection of HW that is used for reproducing customer problems. (I was there to see some of the new Generation 9 machines that are coming out...) ANYWAY, they pretty much have all of the HW that they have support contracts for... and that generate enough questions to reserve floor space for the HW. Guess what still has floor space? A DEC 7000 and Vax 6000. Not a PDP-7, but still enjoyed seeing them...and knowing that enough places are still using them to cause HP to reserve floor space for them in the lab...(proof, as always, is in the pictures : http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/theearlsquirrel/library/ ) Earl the Squirrel From scaron at umich.edu Tue Nov 18 13:31:46 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 14:31:46 -0500 Subject: Proof they're still in service... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Way cool! Thanks for postings pics. Neat to know there are that many VAX 6000s still humming away in production somewhere. I guess if they are still using an 11/780 to cut paychecks in HI...! Best, Sean On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Earl Baugh wrote: > The other day I was touring one of the HP support labs where they have a > LARGE collection of HW that is used for reproducing customer problems. > (I was there to see some of the new Generation 9 machines that are coming > out...) ANYWAY, they pretty much have all of the HW that they have > support contracts for... and that generate enough questions to reserve > floor space for the HW. > > Guess what still has floor space? A DEC 7000 and Vax 6000. Not a > PDP-7, but still enjoyed seeing them...and knowing that enough places are > still using them to cause HP to reserve floor space for them in the > lab...(proof, as always, is in the pictures : > http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/theearlsquirrel/library/ ) > > > Earl the Squirrel > From johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 18 13:40:22 2014 From: johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk (John Wallace) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 19:40:22 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1416339622.86841.YahooMailBasic@web171805.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Apologies if this is obvious/already covered, but along the same lines as Noel's "it's probably 'JKDBD0', not "JKDBDO" it's almost certainly "JKDBD0 DCF11 AA CPU DIAGNOSTIC" or maybe even "JKDBD0 DCF11-AA CPU DIAGNOSTIC" not "JKDBDO DCFlI AA CPU DIAGNOSTIC". Of itself, that may not matter much. However, it may lead elsewhere. The F11 was [obviously] the 11/23 (and /24) chipset. Perhaps not so obviously,11/23 boards were available in variants with or without floating point, and (iirc) with or without memory management unit (MMU) (correction welcome). Also, the relevant bits were socketed, hence a particular board today may not match the board (and part number) as originally manufactured. Relevant handbooks etc will contain further details. I can't remember what's been previously written in this thread, but is it vaguely conceivable that the diagnostic in question needs a piece of hardware that isn't on the board in question, or is seriously broken on the board in question? A search for DCF11-AA CPU Diagnostic gets a few hits, including http://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-24/cpu/diags/jkdb.html which contains the delightful line "For more infromation refer to your microfiche library." and some rather more useful stuff too - sounds like you've found this or an equivalent already? Hope this helps, best of luck. John Wallace From bensinc at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 13:49:12 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 13:49:12 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <1416339622.86841.YahooMailBasic@web171805.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1416339622.86841.YahooMailBasic@web171805.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi John, the O vs. 0 was just me copy and pasting from what was probably an OCR'd copy of the XXDP manual. Mine does have a MMU (which tests fine), but does not have a FPP. XXDP has separate diagnostics for the FPP, and the docs say that it expects to have passed JKDBD0 first, so I was assuming JKDBD0 doesn't do any FPP tests. But, I think you might be correct on that I just don't have something setup that the CPU test wants. The "refer to your microfiche library" line is a bit daunting! Bitsavers does have some of the microfiche scanned, but I can't make enough sense of what's out there to even find the right one. There seems to be very little real info about the XXDP tests, and I don't think anyone even remembers what XXDP stands for! Since everything else seems to work, I'm going to get back to trying to get my RL02 to run. If you haven't had enough of me already, get ready for RL02 questions! On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 1:40 PM, John Wallace wrote: > Apologies if this is obvious/already covered, but along the same lines as > Noel's > "it's probably 'JKDBD0', not "JKDBDO" > it's almost certainly > "JKDBD0 DCF11 AA CPU DIAGNOSTIC" or maybe even "JKDBD0 DCF11-AA CPU > DIAGNOSTIC" > not > "JKDBDO DCFlI AA CPU DIAGNOSTIC". > > Of itself, that may not matter much. > > However, it may lead elsewhere. > > The F11 was [obviously] the 11/23 (and /24) chipset. > > Perhaps not so obviously,11/23 boards were available in variants with or > without floating point, and (iirc) with or without memory management unit > (MMU) (correction welcome). Also, the relevant bits were socketed, hence a > particular board today may not match the board (and part number) as > originally manufactured. Relevant handbooks etc will contain further > details. > > I can't remember what's been previously written in this thread, but is it > vaguely conceivable that the diagnostic > in question needs a piece of hardware that isn't on the board in question, > or is seriously broken on the board in question? > > A search for DCF11-AA CPU Diagnostic gets a few hits, including > http://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-24/cpu/diags/jkdb.html > which contains the delightful line "For more infromation refer to your > microfiche library." and some rather more useful stuff too - sounds like > you've found this or an equivalent already? > > Hope this helps, best of luck. > John Wallace > > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From cruff at ruffspot.net Tue Nov 18 12:53:20 2014 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 11:53:20 -0700 Subject: Looking for a Linux-usable EPROM programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44800D48-B4DE-416D-902B-CFAECF5EB05C@ruffspot.net> If anyone is looking for a USB attached programmer, I picked up a Batronix BX40 Bagero II programmer recently, which is supported under Linux, OS X and Windows. This specific model doesn't handle PAL, GAL, MCU or NAND flash, but they have another model that does. It doesn't even require an external power supply. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 13:55:06 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 14:55:06 -0500 Subject: Looking for: Parts keyboard for chicklet PET (or just a "-" keycap) References: <546B1027.5000906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <412F392F462D4F9BBE9B666B1B7C771C@310e2> Which type of keyboard? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Dersch" To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 4:23 AM Subject: Looking for: Parts keyboard for chicklet PET (or just a "-" keycap) > Made good progress with the PET; after fixing the video I got the reset > circuit humming again (a bad ceramic cap on the 555 trigger circuit) and > it fired right up after that, much to my surprise. And only 4 of the 18 > 6550 RAMs are bad :). Replaced a few terrible sockets and it's running > reliably, albeit with only 6K of RAM. > > The keyboard on this thing has suffered some abuse; the "-" keycap on the > numeric keypad has been broken off. I figure it's a long shot, but does > anyone happen to have a spare "parts" quality keyboard they'd be willing > to sacrifice a "-" key from? > > Thanks, > Josh > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 18 14:12:39 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 14:12:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: <20141118155143.074642073E99@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150057.E25472073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411181530.KAA01189@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118155143.074642073E99@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2014, John Foust wrote: > At 09:30 AM 11/18/2014, Mouse wrote: > >> I was speculating that, on the scales of interest here, it's >> easier/cheaper to produce a non-smooth surface of a uniform material >> (how pressed CDs are actually made) than to produce a smooth surface of >> a nonuniform material (the alternative). > > I see... you're asking why CDs couldn't be made with a printing process > (ink on paper being effectively smooth) as opposed to the non-smooth > method of pits and lands. On one hand, it almost sounds like you've > re-invented CD-R, where a dye gets zapped and changes its reflectivity - > but I was surprised to read that even CD-Rs have a single spiral > "pre-groove" pressed into the polycarbonate. You'd need a rather precise > printing process to make tiny spots. > >> Yes, but I think the light normally used for CD reading is outside the >> visible range. This raises the possibility that the disc might be >> clear in the visible range but not in the range used for reading. Your >> experience trying to read it argues against that, though. Oh well, it >> was a nice theory while it lasted. > > At this point, I only hold out hope for finding an existing reader that > can see the pits, and the best candidate seems to be the oldest readers, > not the newest. > > I can't help but think this is an important topic for data recovery. A > peeled reflective layer is a common failure mode for discs. If there > was a way to dissolve everything above the pits (the label and aluminum) > and recoat with acrylic for protection, and read a clear CD, you could > rescue failed CDs. Couldn't one also apply a layer of aluminum? This is commonly done with mirrors for optics in telescopes and such, by hobbyists. I'm not 100% familiar with the process, but I understand it is done in a small vacuum chamber with some sort of electrical process to vaporize the aluminum. I think I actually have a /very/ early Philips cd-writer drive in storage, but it is behind a couple of large stacks of gear. It has a SCSI interface and is about the size of a home stereo component. I /might/ also have a Philips CM-100 on another more accessible shelf, but it may be a few days or a week before I can have a look and see what I have. I seem to remember the drive I have has an unusual data connector. Does the CM-100 require a special interface card? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 18 14:22:51 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 15:22:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141118202251.44F7818C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Wallace > Perhaps not so obviously,11/23 boards were available in variants with > or without floating point, and (iirc) with or without memory management > unit (MMU) (correction welcome). No, you're right on target. (Although one couldn't have FP without the MMU; the FP registers were actually in the MMU chip, see MicroComputers+Memories '82 pp. 350-351. > is it vaguely conceivable that the diagnostic in question needs a piece > of hardware that isn't on the board in question Hmm. Possible, but from what I know, unlikely. That test claims to test: Part 1 - the CPU checks out the basic PDP11 instructions in every addressing mode with various data patterns. Part 2 - tests all trap instructions, trap overflow conditions R6, interrupts, the reset and wait instruction. Part 3 - tests the EXTENDED INSTRUCTION SET, the ASH, ASHC, MUL and DIV instruction all of which are, AFAIK, part of the basic chip. (Unlike the 11/03 and 11/40, where MUL et al are part of the optional EIS.) Although I see 'interrupts' listed there - I wonder what they are using to generate the interrupt? The console serial line? Must be, I can't think of any other device in the config he was testing. Ben, you didn't have a discontinuity in the grant jumpering, did you? What kind of backplane do you have, and in what order/slots were the boards plugged in? > or is seriously broken on the board in question? That is the other possibiliy. Ben, do you get the same error with both CPU cards? Do you have spare memory/serial line cards you can swap in? Noel From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 18 14:27:31 2014 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 14:27:31 -0600 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150057.E25472073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411181530.KAA01189@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118155143.074642073E99@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 02:12 PM 11/18/2014, Tothwolf wrote: >Couldn't one also apply a layer of aluminum? This is commonly done with mirrors for optics in telescopes and such, by hobbyists. I'm not 100% familiar with the process, but I understand it is done in a small vacuum chamber with some sort of electrical process to vaporize the aluminum. Yes, that's sputtering. The pressed pits and lands are covered in Al, then that's covered with protective lacquer and then the label. I don't think aluminizing the lacquer would have the same effect. I also considered traditional silvering, but plastic doesn't wet like glass does. >I /might/ also have a Philips CM-100 on another more accessible shelf, but it may be a few days or a week before I can have a look and see what I have. I seem to remember the drive I have has an unusual data connector. Does the CM-100 require a special interface card? Yes, an ISA card, and I was surprised to see it for sale for about $10 new-in-box on eBay. I think I also saw that Erik Klein has one. - John From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 14:50:47 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 12:50:47 -0800 Subject: Looking for: Parts keyboard for chicklet PET (or just a "-" keycap) In-Reply-To: <412F392F462D4F9BBE9B666B1B7C771C@310e2> References: <546B1027.5000906@gmail.com> <412F392F462D4F9BBE9B666B1B7C771C@310e2> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 11:55 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > Which type of keyboard? > Like the subject says, the Chicklet style keyboard. Thanks. Josh > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Dersch" > To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 4:23 AM > Subject: Looking for: Parts keyboard for chicklet PET (or just a "-" > keycap) > > > > Made good progress with the PET; after fixing the video I got the reset >> circuit humming again (a bad ceramic cap on the 555 trigger circuit) and it >> fired right up after that, much to my surprise. And only 4 of the 18 6550 >> RAMs are bad :). Replaced a few terrible sockets and it's running >> reliably, albeit with only 6K of RAM. >> >> The keyboard on this thing has suffered some abuse; the "-" keycap on the >> numeric keypad has been broken off. I figure it's a long shot, but does >> anyone happen to have a spare "parts" quality keyboard they'd be willing to >> sacrifice a "-" key from? >> >> Thanks, >> Josh >> >> >> > From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Nov 18 14:21:02 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 20:21:02 +0000 Subject: DELUA technical manual, VAX diagnostic In-Reply-To: <546AE9A2.1090300@update.uu.se> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA018590616F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <546AE9A2.1090300@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0185907069@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 10:40 PM > On 2014-11-17 11:05, Rich Alderson wrote: >> We have a crumbling DELUA in the VAX-11/780-5 at LCM. There is a >> copy of the *User's* Manual at Bitsavers, but not the *Technical* >> Manual. Does anyone happen to have a copy lining the hamster cage >> floor, vel sim.? > Don't have the manual. I *might* have the diagnostics. I need to check > when I'm back in Seattle in a couple of days. Thanks, Johnny. Matt Burke's note took care of the diagnostics issue. > What is "crumbling" about the DELUA? There has been an ongoing issue with the network service for several years, but we haven't had the time to go after it. (It appeared to be an issue with CMU/IP, and there were not enough software cycles among the 3 people on the museum project at that time.) What happens is the following, taken from the latest console log: %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-NOV-2014 20:24:09.56 %%%%%%%%%%% Message from user SYSTEM on ROSIE IPACP: XEDRV: MPBS = 1500 %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-NOV-2014 20:24:09.60 %%%%%%%%%%% Message from user SYSTEM on ROSIE IPACP: XE (DEC ENET) restarted, count = 3 %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-NOV-2014 20:24:09.63 %%%%%%%%%%% Message from user SYSTEM on ROSIE IPACP: XE $QIO error (send),RC=0000001C %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-NOV-2014 20:24:18.56 %%%%%%%%%%% Message from user SYSTEM on ROSIE IPACP: XEDRV: MPBS = 1500 %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-NOV-2014 20:24:18.60 %%%%%%%%%%% Message from user SYSTEM on ROSIE IPACP: XE (DEC ENET) restarted, count = 4 [snip] %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-NOV-2014 23:16:10.56 %%%%%%%%%%% Message from user SYSTEM on ROSIE IPACP: XEDRV: MPBS = 1500 %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-NOV-2014 23:16:10.59 %%%%%%%%%%% Message from user SYSTEM on ROSIE IPACP: XE (DEC ENET) restarted, count = 160 Eventually, no connections to the VAX can be completed. A shutdown and reboot (VMS = WNT) would clear it up for a few days--which made it look like a memory leak or something similar. In the past month and a half, it's gotten more frequent; Friday evening, the system went south (for the Brits, west) after only 2 hours and was unavailable to our users, such as they are, all weekend. This smells much more like a hardware failure than software, so I posted my query about the VAX diagnostic and the tech manual. We also noted that the socketed parts (including the 68000) were all in tin, so tried the obvious and reseated them to crackling sounds like my knees after sitting too long. The system stayed on the net for more than 8 hours, but it still went away again. Clearly, simplistic fixes are not enough. That's what's crumbling. :-/ Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From bensinc at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 15:18:05 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 15:18:05 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141118202251.44F7818C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141118202251.44F7818C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 2:22 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: John Wallace > > > Perhaps not so obviously,11/23 boards were available in variants with > > or without floating point, and (iirc) with or without memory > management > > unit (MMU) (correction welcome). > > No, you're right on target. (Although one couldn't have FP without the MMU; > the FP registers were actually in the MMU chip, see MicroComputers+Memories > '82 pp. 350-351. > > > is it vaguely conceivable that the diagnostic in question needs a > piece > > of hardware that isn't on the board in question > > Hmm. Possible, but from what I know, unlikely. That test claims to test: > > Part 1 - the CPU checks out the basic PDP11 instructions in every > addressing > mode with various data patterns. > Part 2 - tests all trap instructions, trap overflow conditions R6, > interrupts, the reset and wait instruction. > Part 3 - tests the EXTENDED INSTRUCTION SET, the ASH, ASHC, MUL and DIV > instruction > > all of which are, AFAIK, part of the basic chip. (Unlike the 11/03 and > 11/40, where MUL et al are part of the optional EIS.) > > Although I see 'interrupts' listed there - I wonder what they are using > to generate the interrupt? The console serial line? Must be, I can't think > of any other device in the config he was testing. > > Ben, you didn't have a discontinuity in the grant jumpering, did you? > What kind of backplane do you have, and in what order/slots were the > boards plugged in? > > > or is seriously broken on the board in question? > > That is the other possibiliy. > > Ben, do you get the same error with both CPU cards? Do you have spare > memory/serial line cards you can swap in? > > Noel > I don't believe I have any discontinuity, but how would I tell? I think with my backplane (H9273) I'm supposed to put everything down the left side, with the BVD11 at the bottom. Currently I have starting from the top left and going down the left side: M8186, M8044, M8043, then the BVD at the very bottom. The only other CPU card I have is the one with that mod and no jumpers. I did swap the CPU And MMU chips, and they both seem to do the same thing. I'll add jumpers to the other CPU board and try it out as well! I have another memory board, but I know it's bad, so I can't try that! Thanks! -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 15:56:21 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 16:56:21 -0500 Subject: VAXen in Hawai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On the other hand, I suppose it's nice to know that even in this late day > and age, there's still some vintage gear to be found alive and kicking yet > out in the wild! > > Collectors in HI keep your eyes peeled... it's probably pretty expensive to > ship an 11/780 in from off the island ;) I think you guys are jumping to conclusions with the VAX-11/780 thing. The article is using a picture they grabbed from the net - not the actual machine (notice that the picture shows the VAX in an environment that is clearly not a datacenter. Then there is that picture of the terminal...). It is quite common for crap journalism to assume that any big mainframe dates to when the line was introduced. The IBM guys get it all the time - their latest super duper Z box will be called a 50 year old dinosaur. -- Will From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 17:03:20 2014 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 17:03:20 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam In-Reply-To: <773FBCFD-43CC-4A2B-B436-B5A73703A835@aracnet.com> References: <773FBCFD-43CC-4A2B-B436-B5A73703A835@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <99CBF849-6843-4BD9-A08D-E4736C4A5DB6@gmail.com> On Nov 17, 2014, at 8:40 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > After searching since the late-90's, in the last month I've finally had some real luck on the Coleco front. First I got a ColecoVision, and then this last Saturday I was able to get a Coleco Adam quite reasonably. > > In doing some research I've learned that I should be able to replace the printer with an Arcade power-supply that supplies +12V, +5V, and -5V. I also see that I can get a IDE/CF adapter that lets me use a CF card as a drive. > > Now for my questions, what software is available for the Adam that can make use of a CF card 'disk drive'? Also, I gather that the system will erase any magnetic media when turned on or off? What is it that actually does this, is it the power supply, cassette drive, or something else? Welcome! I've been involved in the ADAM scene for quite some time. It really is a cool little computer that is oft overlooked. You are correct that a generic PC or arcade style power supply can be used just fine with the ADAM. The printer cable also carries the ADAMNet data (the same bus that is shared by the keyboard, tape drive controller, and disk drives if you have them), but it is totally optional. There is pretty good support for the IDE interface. The one you are referring to (the Microfox) is a workalike of another vendor's product, the Micro Innovation IDE interface. It works akin to the XT-IDE interface that's on the PCs now, in that it will adapt an AT drive to an 8-bit data port. As such, there's a good bit of software that can be had... either with patched original ADAM software, as is the case with the native EOS/OS7 operating system (ADAM's OS or Coleco Vision), and also a special build of TDOS, which is a CP/M 2.2 replacement. TDOS will run any CP/M compatible software you care to throw at it. As for the magnetic media thing, reports made it sound like I could sit a DDP or floppy disk anywhere near the system and whammo... instant erasure. I have used a minimum amount of precaution making sure that a tape isn't in the drive while turning the system off and on, and haven't had a problem. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 18 17:24:35 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 18:24:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141118232435.8BBDD18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair > I don't believe I have any discontinuity, but how would I tell? Well, usually, it's caused by leaving a card or grant jumper out. I don't think I've ever seen anything else cause it, although I suppose an electronics failure on a card (failure to pass the grant) could also cause it. But neither of those sounds like it's happening here (since you have only one card that can interrupt...) > I think with my backplane (H9273) I'm supposed to put everything down > the left side, with the BVD11 at the bottom. Right. The 9273 is a so-called Q/CD backplane, which means the QBUS (which only takes one dual slot) runs down the left side (when looking at it from the side the boards plug into); all the RHS slots are wired for C-D interconnect. > Currently I have starting from the top left and going down the left > side: M8186, M8044, M8043, then the BVD at the very bottom. That sounds right. And the chances of the 8044 not passing the grant are zilch, since it has very substantial grant jumpers. So unless your backplane is damaged (again, very unlikely), or the grant drive on the CPU card is bad (possible, I suppose), the grant should be getting to the DLV11-J (I'm assuming that test uses the console DL11 to test interrupts - can't think what else it could possibly be using :-). So, if the CPU checks OK, maybe the DLV11-J has a problem with interrupts? Is there a DL11 diag you can run on it? (If not, I can whip up a simple test to check it out.) > I have another memory board, but I know it's bad, so I can't try that! Probably the one you have passes the memory diag, though, right? If it's not an issue with the DL11 interrupting, it sounds like we may have to dig into that diag to find out what it thinks it's doing when it blows up. If I can get my tool-chain working (currently downloading the abs-loader isn't working right somehow), I'll see if I can figure out how to load it, and DDT along with it, and poke into it. Locating the fiche would be another way to go... Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 17:30:42 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 16:30:42 -0700 Subject: Big VAX shipping in Europe In-Reply-To: <20141118171513.GB8445@lug-owl.de> References: <20141118171513.GB8445@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > And since I had to order the fright company, Feudian slip? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 17:34:28 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 18:34:28 -0500 Subject: Big VAX shipping in Europe In-Reply-To: References: <20141118171513.GB8445@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: The feud caused the fright. Next time it will be the fight company. -- Will On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 6:30 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: >> And since I had to order the fright company, > > Feudian slip? From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 18:03:11 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 17:03:11 -0700 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: <20141118150058.0852B2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150058.0852B2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 7:45 AM, John Foust wrote: > The CM100 apparently only works on PC and XT era hardware. I saw > mentions on the web that even a 25 Mhz PC is incompatible. I have some CM100 drives, which may or may not work at this late date due to a combination of age and poor environmental conditions in storage. I do not have a CM153 interface card. The interface consists of three or four RS-422 pairs. At one time I reverse-engineered the 8051 firmware in the drive and understood the details of the interface quite well, but I've forgotten them and cannot currently locate my old notes or the service manual. Still, if a CM100 is useful to you, let me know. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 18:13:39 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 16:13:39 -0800 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150058.0852B2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Speaking of old Philips drives, can the weird caddies for the CM-201 (RRD40) drives be found anywhere? Anyone have any spares they don't need? I have a couple of CM-201 drives and the companion SCSI interface boards from an InfoServer. They are useless to me without any caddies for them. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 19:01:11 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 18:01:11 -0700 Subject: Big VAX shipping in Europe In-Reply-To: References: <20141118171513.GB8445@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 4:30 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Feudian slip? On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 4:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > The feud caused the fright. > > Next time it will be the fight company. Good answer!. Geez, I can't believe I made a typo in a two-word reply. Obviously was intended to be "Freudian". From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 18 19:12:05 2014 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 19:12:05 -0600 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150058.0852B2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 06:03 PM 11/18/2014, Eric Smith wrote: > I do not have a CM153 interface card. The interface >consists of three or four RS-422 pairs. At one time I >reverse-engineered the 8051 firmware in the drive and understood the >details of the interface quite well, but I've forgotten them and >cannot currently locate my old notes or the service manual. Yes, googling turned up a number of your messages from a decade or more ago. You still have a pile of them, but you never had an interface card? As I said, there's a fellow on eBay selling them cheap and new-in-box for $10. Apart from the card and the drive, there's the question of the DOS driver software disks. I imagine it was just an API and there weren't any tools at the DOS level. You mentioned you'd never seen the SCSI CM110. This fellow seems to have one. It looks like he had connections to Eindhoven. http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/sroom.html - John From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 20:16:49 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 19:16:49 -0700 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: <20141119011246.31ACC2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150058.0852B2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <20141119011246.31ACC2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: John Foust wrote: > Apart from the card and the drive, there's the question of > the DOS driver software disks. I imagine it was just an API > and there weren't any tools at the DOS level. I'm pretty sure they provided the API used by MSCDEX, though I don't know where that API (MSCDEX bottom side) is documented. > You mentioned you'd never seen the SCSI CM110. This fellow > seems to have one. It looks like he had connections to Eindhoven. Cool! I'd like to get one someday, but it's not a high priority. Same with DEC KRQ50 (M7552) controller for RRD50. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 18 21:16:19 2014 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 19:16:19 -0800 Subject: Coleco Adam In-Reply-To: <99CBF849-6843-4BD9-A08D-E4736C4A5DB6@gmail.com> References: <773FBCFD-43CC-4A2B-B436-B5A73703A835@aracnet.com> <99CBF849-6843-4BD9-A08D-E4736C4A5DB6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <77CC25EB-1289-459E-B466-13CD58B91FBD@aracnet.com> On Nov 18, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Welcome! I've been involved in the ADAM scene for quite some time. It really is a cool little computer that is oft overlooked. You are correct that a generic PC or arcade style power supply can be used just fine with the ADAM. The printer cable also carries the ADAMNet data (the same bus that is shared by the keyboard, tape drive controller, and disk drives if you have them), but it is totally optional. > > There is pretty good support for the IDE interface. The one you are referring to (the Microfox) is a workalike of another vendor's product, the Micro Innovation IDE interface. It works akin to the XT-IDE interface that's on the PCs now, in that it will adapt an AT drive to an 8-bit data port. As such, there's a good bit of software that can be had... either with patched original ADAM software, as is the case with the native EOS/OS7 operating system (ADAM's OS or Coleco Vision), and also a special build of TDOS, which is a CP/M 2.2 replacement. TDOS will run any CP/M compatible software you care to throw at it. > > As for the magnetic media thing, reports made it sound like I could sit a DDP or floppy disk anywhere near the system and whammo... instant erasure. I have used a minimum amount of precaution making sure that a tape isn't in the drive while turning the system off and on, and haven't had a problem. Believe it or not, it was Richard Drushel's posts about the ADAM to alt.folklore.computers on USENET, way back in '97, that got me interested in the ADAM. It's just taken me 17 years to finally find one. :-) I hope to have an arcade power supply by the end of the week, so that I can start building a stand-alone PS. Unfortunately I lack a floppy drive. I have one DDP tape, but haven't figured out how to use it, or if anything is on it. Unfortunately while I got a boxed system, I didn't get manuals, or the DDP tape(s) that would have normally come with an ADAM. I'm slowly making my way through trying to discover what info is available on the Internet. So far it's been slow going, so I appreciate the answers. Zane From bensinc at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 21:21:07 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 21:21:07 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141118232435.8BBDD18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141118232435.8BBDD18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > So, if the CPU checks OK, maybe the DLV11-J has a problem with interrupts? > Is > there a DL11 diag you can run on it? (If not, I can whip up a simple test > to > check it out.) > The diagnostics manual mentions this: NDLAA0.BIN DLVll-J (M8043 & FALCON) LOGIC TEST But, the only XXDP disks I have are the ones from AK6DN, and that test doesn't appear to be on any of them. > > > I have another memory board, but I know it's bad, so I can't try > that! > > Probably the one you have passes the memory diag, though, right? > I've run a memory test program I found that's not part of XXDP, and I believe it's fine, but is there a test in XXDP I could run? I don't see anything in the XXDP manual related to an M8044/MSV11. Now that I think about it, I probably should find a way to really verify the memory is working! The MMU test from XXPP does pass, but I'm not sure if that also tests the memory. > If it's not an issue with the DL11 interrupting, it sounds like we may have > to dig into that diag to find out what it thinks it's doing when it blows > up. > If I can get my tool-chain working (currently downloading the abs-loader > isn't working right somehow), I'll see if I can figure out how to load it, > and DDT along with it, and poke into it. > > Locating the fiche would be another way to go... > > Noel > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From bensinc at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 21:39:43 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 21:39:43 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141118232435.8BBDD18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I found the microfiche for the KDF-11B on Bitsavers, but they're missing the one for the KDF-11A unfortunately! On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 9:21 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> >> So, if the CPU checks OK, maybe the DLV11-J has a problem with >> interrupts? Is >> there a DL11 diag you can run on it? (If not, I can whip up a simple test >> to >> check it out.) >> > > The diagnostics manual mentions this: > > NDLAA0.BIN DLVll-J (M8043 & FALCON) LOGIC TEST > > But, the only XXDP disks I have are the ones from AK6DN, and that test > doesn't appear to be on any of them. > > > >> >> > I have another memory board, but I know it's bad, so I can't try >> that! >> >> Probably the one you have passes the memory diag, though, right? >> > > I've run a memory test program I found that's not part of XXDP, and I > believe it's fine, but is there a test in XXDP I could run? I don't see > anything in the XXDP manual related to an M8044/MSV11. Now that I think > about it, I probably should find a way to really verify the memory is > working! > > The MMU test from XXPP does pass, but I'm not sure if that also tests the > memory. > > >> If it's not an issue with the DL11 interrupting, it sounds like we may >> have >> to dig into that diag to find out what it thinks it's doing when it blows >> up. >> If I can get my tool-chain working (currently downloading the abs-loader >> isn't working right somehow), I'll see if I can figure out how to load it, >> and DDT along with it, and poke into it. >> >> Locating the fiche would be another way to go... >> >> Noel >> > > > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From bensinc at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 21:52:08 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 21:52:08 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141118232435.8BBDD18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Just for fun I moved all of the jumpers from my old M8186 to the new M8186. It works just the same... It still fails that CPU test. I wish I had the microfiche for this CPU, as the one for the KDF-11B lists the hardware requirements! On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 9:39 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I found the microfiche for the KDF-11B on Bitsavers, but they're missing > the one for the KDF-11A unfortunately! > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 9:21 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Noel Chiappa >> wrote: >> >>> >>> So, if the CPU checks OK, maybe the DLV11-J has a problem with >>> interrupts? Is >>> there a DL11 diag you can run on it? (If not, I can whip up a simple >>> test to >>> check it out.) >>> >> >> The diagnostics manual mentions this: >> >> NDLAA0.BIN DLVll-J (M8043 & FALCON) LOGIC TEST >> >> But, the only XXDP disks I have are the ones from AK6DN, and that test >> doesn't appear to be on any of them. >> >> >> >>> >>> > I have another memory board, but I know it's bad, so I can't try >>> that! >>> >>> Probably the one you have passes the memory diag, though, right? >>> >> >> I've run a memory test program I found that's not part of XXDP, and I >> believe it's fine, but is there a test in XXDP I could run? I don't see >> anything in the XXDP manual related to an M8044/MSV11. Now that I think >> about it, I probably should find a way to really verify the memory is >> working! >> >> The MMU test from XXPP does pass, but I'm not sure if that also tests the >> memory. >> >> >>> If it's not an issue with the DL11 interrupting, it sounds like we may >>> have >>> to dig into that diag to find out what it thinks it's doing when it >>> blows up. >>> If I can get my tool-chain working (currently downloading the abs-loader >>> isn't working right somehow), I'll see if I can figure out how to load >>> it, >>> and DDT along with it, and poke into it. >>> >>> Locating the fiche would be another way to go... >>> >>> Noel >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ben Sinclair >> ben at bensinclair.com >> > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Nov 19 01:31:30 2014 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 08:31:30 +0100 Subject: 5.25" SCSI Drives In-Reply-To: <201411181540.KAA13738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201411181540.KAA13738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <546C4752.8050203@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Am 18.11.14 16:40, schrieb Mouse: > 5.25" 68-pin drives? That's quite the novelty - I'm curious about > maker and model and such. Yes. Seagate Elite ST446452W. 5.25" full height, Wide SCSI, 44 GB. -- tsch??, Jochen From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 17:34:45 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 16:34:45 -0700 Subject: Looking for a Linux-usable EPROM programmer In-Reply-To: <44800D48-B4DE-416D-902B-CFAECF5EB05C@ruffspot.net> References: <44800D48-B4DE-416D-902B-CFAECF5EB05C@ruffspot.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Craig Ruff wrote: > If anyone is looking for a USB attached programmer, I picked up a Batronix BX40 Bagero II programmer recently, which is supported under Linux, OS X and Windows. This specific model doesn't handle PAL, GAL, MCU or NAND flash, but they have another model that does. It doesn't even require an external power supply. I recommend getting a used Data I/O Unisite 40 or Unisite 48. They hook up by a serial port (or USB-serial adapter) and work fine with Linux. They can program almost any chip that is programmable, including PAL, GAL, MCU, etc. Adapters (e.g., Chipsite) are needed for SMT parts. The notable omission from their universality is that they don't program PMOS EPROMs (1701, 1702, MM5203, MM5204, S6834) because those require extreme voltages compared to NMOS and CMOS EPROMs. Eric From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Tue Nov 18 17:30:13 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 23:30:13 +0000 (WET) Subject: DELUA technical manual, VAX diagnostic In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 18 Nov 2014 20:21:02 +0000" <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0185907069@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA018590616F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <546AE9A2.1090300@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <01PF44ABXHOO003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> > >> What is "crumbling" about the DELUA? > >There has been an ongoing issue with the network service for several years, >but we haven't had the time to go after it. (It appeared to be an issue >with CMU/IP, and there were not enough software cycles among the 3 people >on the museum project at that time.) What happens is the following, taken >from the latest console log: > As far as I know, CMU/IP was a vallient attempt to create a TCP/IP stack that runs exclusively in user mode. I've never known it to work satisfactorily for any length of time in any sort of production environment. Typical problems include processes hanging or exiting for reasons that are difficult to debug and harder to solve. If the version of VMS and available disk space allows, maybe you could install Multinet from Process Software? Even recent versions of Multinet will install on VAX/VMS as far back as V5.0. Other possibilities include TCPWare and TCPIP Services. I have little experience of either of the latter but in my opinion they wouldn't have to do much to beat CMU/IP for reliability, performance, usability and documentation. And I'm sure none of them would make the interactive response slow and painful the way CMU/IP used to either. There is a certain argument for preserving the user experience in a museum environment but maybe there are some experiences that are best not preserved :-) > > %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-NOV-2014 20:24:09.63 %%%%%%%%%%% > Message from user SYSTEM on ROSIE > IPACP: XE $QIO error (send),RC=0000001C > You can generally find out what a VMS status code is telling you by just giving it as argument to an EXIT command at the dollar prompt. Here's the result from OpenVMS Alpha V8.3 - some things just don't change: $ EXIT %X1C %SYSTEM-F-EXQUOTA, process quota exceeded IIRC this was a fairly standard CMU/IP failure mode. Unfortunately, VMS has lots of different process quotas and any one of them could be running out. Prime suspect is pagefile quota (virtual memory). If the process hasn't exited, SHOW PROCESS /QUOTA /ID= may show what the problem is but my bet is that if the relevant quota is increased, it will run out again. > >Eventually, no connections to the VAX can be completed. A shutdown and >reboot (VMS = WNT) would clear it up for a few days--which made it look >like a memory leak or something similar. > I remember having that sort of grief with CMU/IP on a VAX 6410 more than 20 years ago. The problems persisted until it was possible to convince the management to spend the money on a proper TCP/IP stack that ran in kernel mode. That cured it completely and made life so much easier. > >In the past month and a half, it's gotten more frequent; Friday evening, >the system went south (for the Brits, west) after only 2 hours and was >unavailable to our users, such as they are, all weekend. This smells much >more like a hardware failure than software, so I posted my query about the >VAX diagnostic and the tech manual. > I would suspect CMU/IP before the hardware. The increased frequency of the problems may be due to differing conditions on your network. If the network adaptor is really having hardware problems, it will probably be making entries in the error log. Use SHOW ERROR to make a quick check for devices which are clocking up errors and ANALYZE /ERROR_LOG to format the error log in human readable form. HELP ANALYZE should give hints on what command qualifiers to use to select the error log entries of interest. If you've already got all sorts of stuff in the error log that you are not interested in, you can RENAME SYS$ERRORLOG:ERRLOG.SYS ERRLOG.OLD for example and the system will start a new error log the next time it has something to log or in a few minutes if nothing happens. If there is nothing of interest in the renamed error log, you can delete it after the new log is started if it is large and disk space is an issue for example. If your network adaptor is attached to a network transceiver that doesn't have SQE test enabled, you will clock up errors similar to "collision detect carrier check failed" every few seconds. This is highly unlikely to represent a real problem and can be ignored if you can put up with the irritation. Using a tranceiver with SQE test enabled should get rid of it. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From rich.bramante at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 23:10:57 2014 From: rich.bramante at gmail.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 00:10:57 -0500 Subject: Visual Technology Visual 1050 site Message-ID: Thanks to Jay, the previously orphaned Visual 1050 information site has a new home on classiccmp: http://v1050.classiccmp.org. This is a repository for all the information I could find on this early-80's CP/M system including photos, documentation, source code, emulation instructions, etc. etc. Please take a look if interested and let me know if there's anything additional you can contribute. Thanks again Jay! From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Nov 18 23:18:24 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 21:18:24 -0800 Subject: DELUA technical manual, VAX diagnostic In-Reply-To: <01PF44ABXHOO003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA018590616F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <546AE9A2.1090300@update.uu.se> <01PF44ABXHOO003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <546C2820.9040308@update.uu.se> Lots of good tips there, Peter. One thing, though. I don't think that the error code from the $QIO in the OPCOM log is a VMS exit code. But I might be wrong on that. But that could do with some more examining. Things like SQE were things I was also thinking about. Checking the actual system errors logs would be an important first step. Johnny On 2014-11-18 15:30, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> >>> What is "crumbling" about the DELUA? >> >> There has been an ongoing issue with the network service for several years, >> but we haven't had the time to go after it. (It appeared to be an issue >> with CMU/IP, and there were not enough software cycles among the 3 people >> on the museum project at that time.) What happens is the following, taken >>from the latest console log: >> > > As far as I know, CMU/IP was a vallient attempt to create a TCP/IP stack that > runs exclusively in user mode. I've never known it to work satisfactorily for > any length of time in any sort of production environment. Typical problems > include processes hanging or exiting for reasons that are difficult to debug > and harder to solve. > > If the version of VMS and available disk space allows, maybe you could install > Multinet from Process Software? Even recent versions of Multinet will install > on VAX/VMS as far back as V5.0. Other possibilities include TCPWare and TCPIP > Services. I have little experience of either of the latter but in my opinion > they wouldn't have to do much to beat CMU/IP for reliability, performance, > usability and documentation. And I'm sure none of them would make the > interactive response slow and painful the way CMU/IP used to either. > > There is a certain argument for preserving the user experience in a museum > environment but maybe there are some experiences that are best not preserved :-) > >> >> %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 17-NOV-2014 20:24:09.63 %%%%%%%%%%% >> Message from user SYSTEM on ROSIE >> IPACP: XE $QIO error (send),RC=0000001C >> > > You can generally find out what a VMS status code is telling you by just giving > it as argument to an EXIT command at the dollar prompt. Here's the result from > OpenVMS Alpha V8.3 - some things just don't change: > > $ EXIT %X1C > %SYSTEM-F-EXQUOTA, process quota exceeded > > IIRC this was a fairly standard CMU/IP failure mode. Unfortunately, VMS has > lots of different process quotas and any one of them could be running out. > Prime suspect is pagefile quota (virtual memory). If the process hasn't > exited, SHOW PROCESS /QUOTA /ID= may show what > the problem is but my bet is that if the relevant quota is increased, it will > run out again. > >> >> Eventually, no connections to the VAX can be completed. A shutdown and >> reboot (VMS = WNT) would clear it up for a few days--which made it look >> like a memory leak or something similar. >> > > I remember having that sort of grief with CMU/IP on a VAX 6410 more than 20 > years ago. The problems persisted until it was possible to convince the > management to spend the money on a proper TCP/IP stack that ran in kernel > mode. That cured it completely and made life so much easier. > >> >> In the past month and a half, it's gotten more frequent; Friday evening, >> the system went south (for the Brits, west) after only 2 hours and was >> unavailable to our users, such as they are, all weekend. This smells much >> more like a hardware failure than software, so I posted my query about the >> VAX diagnostic and the tech manual. >> > > I would suspect CMU/IP before the hardware. The increased frequency of the > problems may be due to differing conditions on your network. > > If the network adaptor is really having hardware problems, it will probably > be making entries in the error log. Use SHOW ERROR to make a quick check for > devices which are clocking up errors and ANALYZE /ERROR_LOG to format the error > log in human readable form. HELP ANALYZE should give hints on what command > qualifiers to use to select the error log entries of interest. If you've > already got all sorts of stuff in the error log that you are not interested > in, you can RENAME SYS$ERRORLOG:ERRLOG.SYS ERRLOG.OLD for example and the > system will start a new error log the next time it has something to log or in > a few minutes if nothing happens. If there is nothing of interest in the > renamed error log, you can delete it after the new log is started if it is > large and disk space is an issue for example. > > If your network adaptor is attached to a network transceiver that doesn't have > SQE test enabled, you will clock up errors similar to "collision detect carrier > check failed" every few seconds. This is highly unlikely to represent a real > problem and can be ignored if you can put up with the irritation. Using a > tranceiver with SQE test enabled should get rid of it. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From jason at textfiles.com Wed Nov 19 00:46:48 2014 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 01:46:48 -0500 Subject: Looking for access or scans or info on WPNews Message-ID: Hi, everyone. I?m looking for WPnews, or Word Processing News, published out of Burbank in early 80s. Editor: Barbara Elman. A friend is doing research in word processing history and this would help a lot. From mediatransferfiles111 at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 04:02:27 2014 From: mediatransferfiles111 at gmail.com (Media Transfer) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 04:02:27 -0600 Subject: Calling Philip Pemberton - UNIX PC/3b1 Emulator follow-up Message-ID: Philip, I have studied the documentation on your work on your 3b1 emulator project. I am trying to rebuild a bootloader for a Convergent Technologies MightyFrame, and I have several working UNIX PCs that I am using for study, since they are similar...(by no means identical, but similar enough). You seem to have done some fantastic work on I see your posts on comp.sys.3b1 from 3+ years ago, and I am very impressed with your ability to decode the design of the UNIX PCs bootloader file. I was wondering if I could request some help with doing the same for our MightyFrame bootloader. I'd love to chat. I've sent a few emails to the address you provide on your 3b1 emulator site, as well as responded to your 3-year-old comp.sys.3b1 thread. Congratulations on some fantastic work, and I look forward to connecting with you. Sincerely, -AJ Palmgren http://MightyFrame.com ---------------------------------------- */usr/lib/iv/s4load.verbose* Download the s4load.verbose source code Here Philip Pemberton discusses the code inside of s4load.verbose For reference, Philip is the author of a 3b1 emulator project . From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 19 08:33:16 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 09:33:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141119143316.B4FF118C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair >> Is there a DL11 diag you can run on it? (If not, I can whip up a >> simple test to check it out.) > The diagnostics manual mentions this: > NDLAA0.BIN DLVll-J (M8043 & FALCON) LOGIC TEST > But, the only XXDP disks I have are the ones from AK6DN, and that test > doesn't appear to be on any of them. OK. Give me day or so, and I can whip up a really small test that you can toggle in to check out the interrupt on the console line. I won't be able to give it to you in a down-loadable format, alas: I'm working with a Unix (V6) toolkit, and at the moment I don't have the ability to produce DEC-format binary files, just Unix a.out. At MIT we did have a complete set of things for V6 Unix for doing DEC-compatible stuff (MACRO, LINKER, along with programs to convert back and forth between .REL and a.out format, and also to convert things to .LDA format), but at the moment the backup tapes I have which contain all that are in the process of being read, so there's no point to re-writing them all. > I've run a memory test program I found that's not part of XXDP, and I > believe it's fine, but is there a test in XXDP I could run? Sorry, I don't know anything about XXDP. Maybe someone else knows? > I don't see anything in the XXDP manual related to an M8044/MSV11. I'm not sure they'd have a MSV11-D-specific test program; it has no control registers or anything, so just a generic memory test is all you can do with it. > I moved all of the jumpers from my old M8186 to the new M8186. It works > just the same... It still fails that CPU test. So it's not a CPU problem. Starting to sound like maybe a DLV11-J problem - or maybe the test wants something we don't know about? > I found the microfiche for the KDF-11B on Bitsavers, but they're > missing the one for the KDF-11A unfortunately! That might still be useful. I wanted to look at the -11B one, but I'm not sure I've found it; is this it: www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/fiche_200dpi/0170_CJKDJB0_1123B.pdf The KDF-11A and KDF-11B are _almost_ identical, programming-wise (they use the same chip-set) - the only differences I know of are that the -B has i) a built in LTC register, and ii) Bootstrap and Diagnostic registers. > I wish I had the microfiche for this CPU, as the one for the KDF-11B > lists the hardware requirements! Looking at that CJKDJB0_1123B thing, it does seem to want things specific to the -11B (e.g. it tries to test the second on-board serial line). If it's not a simple DLV11-J problem, I see dis-assembly in our future, sigh. Noel From bensinc at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 08:56:18 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 08:56:18 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141119143316.B4FF118C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141119143316.B4FF118C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Thanks a lot for your help Noel! I did write a Ruby program to enter programs in from files via ODT, so I can probably run your test that way, assuming it's a set of addresses and values. I agree that it's unlikely both of my CPU boards are bad in the exact same way, so hopefully I'm on my way to figuring it out! That PDF is the one I was looking at, though it looks like there are more diagnostics available for the 23+, so that might not be completely equivalent to the test available for the 23. I'm hoping a memory test shows that I have some problems there, which is potentially the easiest thing to fix. Someone told me a while back that the M8044 memory tends to be fail, so maybe I should look for something else. I wouldn't mind having more memory anyway! On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 8:33 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ben Sinclair > > >> Is there a DL11 diag you can run on it? (If not, I can whip up a > >> simple test to check it out.) > > > The diagnostics manual mentions this: > > NDLAA0.BIN DLVll-J (M8043 & FALCON) LOGIC TEST > > But, the only XXDP disks I have are the ones from AK6DN, and that > test > > doesn't appear to be on any of them. > > OK. Give me day or so, and I can whip up a really small test that you can > toggle in to check out the interrupt on the console line. > > I won't be able to give it to you in a down-loadable format, alas: I'm > working with a Unix (V6) toolkit, and at the moment I don't have the > ability > to produce DEC-format binary files, just Unix a.out. > > At MIT we did have a complete set of things for V6 Unix for doing > DEC-compatible stuff (MACRO, LINKER, along with programs to convert back > and > forth between .REL and a.out format, and also to convert things to .LDA > format), but at the moment the backup tapes I have which contain all that > are > in the process of being read, so there's no point to re-writing them all. > > > I've run a memory test program I found that's not part of XXDP, and I > > believe it's fine, but is there a test in XXDP I could run? > > Sorry, I don't know anything about XXDP. Maybe someone else knows? > > > I don't see anything in the XXDP manual related to an M8044/MSV11. > > I'm not sure they'd have a MSV11-D-specific test program; it has no control > registers or anything, so just a generic memory test is all you can do > with it. > > > I moved all of the jumpers from my old M8186 to the new M8186. It > works > > just the same... It still fails that CPU test. > > So it's not a CPU problem. Starting to sound like maybe a DLV11-J problem > - or > maybe the test wants something we don't know about? > > > > I found the microfiche for the KDF-11B on Bitsavers, but they're > > missing the one for the KDF-11A unfortunately! > > That might still be useful. I wanted to look at the -11B one, but I'm not > sure I've found it; is this it: > > www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/fiche_200dpi/0170_CJKDJB0_1123B.pdf > > The KDF-11A and KDF-11B are _almost_ identical, programming-wise (they use > the > same chip-set) - the only differences I know of are that the -B has i) a > built > in LTC register, and ii) Bootstrap and Diagnostic registers. > > > I wish I had the microfiche for this CPU, as the one for the KDF-11B > > lists the hardware requirements! > > Looking at that CJKDJB0_1123B thing, it does seem to want things specific > to the -11B (e.g. it tries to test the second on-board serial line). > > If it's not a simple DLV11-J problem, I see dis-assembly in our future, > sigh. > > Noel > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 09:22:30 2014 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 09:22:30 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam In-Reply-To: <77CC25EB-1289-459E-B466-13CD58B91FBD@aracnet.com> References: <773FBCFD-43CC-4A2B-B436-B5A73703A835@aracnet.com> <99CBF849-6843-4BD9-A08D-E4736C4A5DB6@gmail.com> <77CC25EB-1289-459E-B466-13CD58B91FBD@aracnet.com> Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 18, 2014, at 9:16 PM, Zane Healy wrote > > Believe it or not, it was Richard Drushel's posts about the ADAM to alt.folklore.computers on USENET, way back in '97, that got me interested in the ADAM. It's just taken me 17 years to finally find one. :-) > > I hope to have an arcade power supply by the end of the week, so that I can start building a stand-alone PS. Unfortunately I lack a floppy drive. I have one DDP tape, but haven't figured out how to use it, or if anything is on it. Unfortunately while I got a boxed system, I didn't get manuals, or the DDP tape(s) that would have normally come with an ADAM. > There are three basic types of digital data packs: self-booting super Games, cp/m format, and "normal" directory tapes with the directory in the middle of the tape. The system will attempt to boot a tape when you load it into the drive and pull computer reset. If it's my bootable, generally adam tapes will have files accessible either through the SmartWriter word processor, SmartBASIC, or some other application. Unlike a lot of other home computers of this vintage, BASIC isn't contained in ROM, you must load it from tape (or disk). The system originally shipped with three tapes, a blank formatted one, SmartBASIC, and Super Buck Rogers. Loading and storing files in the word processor are as simple as pressing store/get on the keyboard, and selecting the drive and operation via the function keys. Most other Adam apps work the same way. SmartBASIC is all text driven and has its own unique commands for that. > I'm slowly making my way through trying to discover what info is available on the Internet. So far it's been slow going, so I appreciate the answers. > Your best bet is to join the Adam mailing list at ADAMCon.org and also over on atariage.com on the colecovision an Adam forums. There are lots of enthusiasts in both places. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 19 12:39:50 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 13:39:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141119183950.5AB1718C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair > Thanks a lot for your help Noel! Sure, glad to help. I'm at just about this stage with my 11/23's, so it's no biggie. > I did write a Ruby program to enter programs in from files via ODT, so > I can probably run your test that way, assuming it's a set of addresses > and values. I can do that. Here you go (in Unix assembler, which is somewhat different from the DEC one in some syntax details, notably '/' for comment, not ';'): br4 = 200 stack = 2000 conregs = 177560 rcsr = 0 rbuf = 2 tcsr = 4 tbuf = 6 rint = 100 . = 60^. conr; br4 / 1020 200 . = 1000^. test: mov $stack, sp / 12706 2000 mov $conregs, r1 / 12701 177560 / mov $rint, rcsr(r1) / 12761 100 0 mov $rint, (r1) / 12711 100 1: wait / 1 br 1b / 776 conr: movb rbuf(r1), tbuf(r1) / 116161 2 6 rti / 2 (The numbers on the right are hand-assembled octal, but I did put it through the assembler to make sure I'd gotten it right. The commented out instruction is clearer, but adds one word to the required type-in.) Here it is in address/location form: 60 1020 62 200 1000 12706 1002 2000 1004 12701 1006 177560 1010 12711 1012 100 1014 1 1016 776 1020 116161 1022 2 1024 6 1026 2 Start with "1000G" to ODT. It should echo everything you type, using interrupts from the console DL11 to do so. I did try this on my machine to debug it, and fixed one minor thinko (I had used "rts pc" instead of "rti"). After that, worked like it says on the tin. My machine is (at the moment) basically identical config to yours: an 11/23, a memory card (NatSemi), and a DLV11-J. (No terminator/ROM, it's in a Sigma box which has termination built in.) > That PDF is the one I was looking at OK. > though it looks like there are more diagnostics available for the 23+, > so that might not be completely equivalent to the test available for > the 23. Yes, that was my sense too. > I'm hoping a memory test shows that I have some problems there, which > is potentially the easiest thing to fix. Do you have a memory test, yet? I am planning on whipping up one of those too, for my own use, although it will be more elaborate than that console interrupt test. If you can use octal dumps to load, I can produce that form pretty easily: let me know what syntax your loader takes. > Someone told me a while back that the M8044 memory tends to be fail, so > maybe I should look for something else. Interesting; I have a whole stack, and the first one I tried seemed not to work. Noel From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 13:03:47 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 11:03:47 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141119143316.B4FF118C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 6:56 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > I'm hoping a memory test shows that I have some problems there, which is > potentially the easiest thing to fix. Someone told me a while back that the > M8044 memory tends to be fail, so maybe I should look for something else. I > wouldn't mind having more memory anyway! > Have you tried running VMSAC0? PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf Page 1-76 Q-BUS MEMORY VMSAC0 0-4 MEGABYTE MEMORY EXER. (mixed D/L/P) If you are running XXDP from an emulated TU58 that binary is in this image: http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/TU58/ http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/TU58/1123_1.dsk http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/TU58/1123_1.txt From bensinc at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 13:36:20 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 13:36:20 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141119183950.5AB1718C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141119183950.5AB1718C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Thanks! I'll try that out tonight and see what happens. My loader just takes address/value pairs. It basically just automates me typing them at the ODT console. I don't have a memory test yet, but Glen just pointed out a test that I should be able to run. I should have noticed that earlier since I've been using that disk image forever. On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ben Sinclair > > > Thanks a lot for your help Noel! > > Sure, glad to help. I'm at just about this stage with my 11/23's, so it's > no > biggie. > > > I did write a Ruby program to enter programs in from files via ODT, > so > > I can probably run your test that way, assuming it's a set of > addresses > > and values. > > I can do that. Here you go (in Unix assembler, which is somewhat different > from the DEC one in some syntax details, notably '/' for comment, not ';'): > > br4 = 200 > > stack = 2000 > > conregs = 177560 > > rcsr = 0 > rbuf = 2 > tcsr = 4 > tbuf = 6 > > rint = 100 > > . = 60^. > conr; br4 / 1020 200 > > . = 1000^. > > test: mov $stack, sp / 12706 2000 > mov $conregs, r1 / 12701 177560 > / mov $rint, rcsr(r1) / 12761 100 0 > mov $rint, (r1) / 12711 100 > 1: wait / 1 > br 1b / 776 > > conr: movb rbuf(r1), tbuf(r1) / 116161 2 6 > rti / 2 > > (The numbers on the right are hand-assembled octal, but I did put it > through the assembler to make sure I'd gotten it right. The commented > out instruction is clearer, but adds one word to the required type-in.) > > Here it is in address/location form: > > 60 1020 > 62 200 > > 1000 12706 > 1002 2000 > 1004 12701 > 1006 177560 > 1010 12711 > 1012 100 > 1014 1 > 1016 776 > 1020 116161 > 1022 2 > 1024 6 > 1026 2 > > Start with "1000G" to ODT. It should echo everything you type, using > interrupts from the console DL11 to do so. > > I did try this on my machine to debug it, and fixed one minor thinko (I had > used "rts pc" instead of "rti"). After that, worked like it says on the > tin. > > My machine is (at the moment) basically identical config to yours: an > 11/23, > a memory card (NatSemi), and a DLV11-J. (No terminator/ROM, it's in a Sigma > box which has termination built in.) > > > > That PDF is the one I was looking at > > OK. > > > though it looks like there are more diagnostics available for the > 23+, > > so that might not be completely equivalent to the test available for > > the 23. > > Yes, that was my sense too. > > > > I'm hoping a memory test shows that I have some problems there, which > > is potentially the easiest thing to fix. > > Do you have a memory test, yet? I am planning on whipping up one of those > too, for my own use, although it will be more elaborate than that console > interrupt test. > > If you can use octal dumps to load, I can produce that form pretty easily: > let me know what syntax your loader takes. > > > Someone told me a while back that the M8044 memory tends to be fail, > so > > maybe I should look for something else. > > Interesting; I have a whole stack, and the first one I tried seemed not > to work. > > Noel > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 19 15:43:10 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 21:43:10 +0000 Subject: HP2100A luser questions Message-ID: I am still unpacking after the move.... Anyway, I came across my HP2100A minicomputer, so I took a long look at it (seriously, I must have spent a couple of hours pulling boards, etc). Some day I would like to get it running again. I have the standard 8 CPU boards, and the 12895 DMA board. I almost have 32K of core. What I mean by that is that I have all the boards for 32K words of core. I am missing one of the top connectors between a core board and the address driver next to it. I have a few I/O cards in the machine : 12531-60022 Buffered TTY Reg (2 off) looks to be current loop and RS232 serial 12551-6002 Relay Out Reg 12592-6001 +8 but Dup Reg (8 bit parallel for paper tape punch/reader?) 12554-60023 +16 bit Dup Reg (16 bit parallel?) 12566-60021 +True In/Out (another 16 bit parallel?) 13210-60004/6 Disc Interface 1/2 (7900 interface, 2 boards) 12539-60001 Time Base Gen (Heartbeat interrupt ?) 12590-6001 Plotter (I can find nothing about this board on the obvious sites). Anyway, I have downloaded the appropriate manuals, but have some questions... What is Current Transfer Logic, the machine seems to be full of such ICs? Any data sheets, etc out there? I assume there's no chance of me finding a top connector for the memory system. Am I right that the only difference between the 2 flavours is the spacing of the edge connectors on the PCB? Due to the fact that the connector plugs into the core plane daughterboard, which is fitted on the component side of the sense/inhibit board, so the spacing between the edge plugs changes depending on whether the core is to the left or to the right of the address driver. Both top connectors seem to be just pin-pin wired on the PCB, but the manuals don't really mention them. There is a tab on my A2 board telling me I have the floating point microcode and indeed the 6 ROMs are fitted (in sockets) near the standard microcode ROMs. Was there ever a published source listing of this? It would be interesting... Any information on that 'Plotter' board? One major problem concerns the power switch. I don't have the key, and it's currently in the 'panel lock' position. Now, I can trivially jumper the switch to enable the panel but I would rather not. I have taken the switch assembly apart (there is an exploded diagram in the IPB manual) and it seems to use a standard Ace 7 pin tubular lock. Were all 2100A's keyed alike (like all DEC machines were)? If so, does anyone have the key cutting data? If not, I wonder if I could get a replacement lock and key? Or take the existing lock apart (looks to be one pin to drill out to get it apart, at least the IBM 5170 lock comes apart like that) and either get a key cut to suit the existing pinning, or re-pin it. With the configuration I have (assume I can get 32K words of core, and have the I/O cards I listed) what can I run on it? -tony From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Nov 19 10:03:35 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 16:03:35 +0000 (WET) Subject: DELUA technical manual, VAX diagnostic In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 18 Nov 2014 21:18:24 -0800" <546C2820.9040308@update.uu.se> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA018590616F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <546AE9A2.1090300@update.uu.se> <01PF44ABXHOO003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01PF52S4KHIC003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> > >One thing, though. >I don't think that the error code from the $QIO in the OPCOM log is a >VMS exit code. But I might be wrong on that. >But that could do with some more examining. > There is a poorly phrased entry in the CMU/IP FAQ which could give the impression that CMU/IP uses it's own error codes that are entirely different from VMS status codes. What I think it is really trying to say is that like many VMS applications, CMU/IP defines _additional_ status codes that VMS does not already have suitable messages defined for and the text messages associated with these are not available unless the appropriate CMU/IP provided message files are loaded. Low numbered error codes such as 1C (and another favourite - 0C which is %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation) come from system services and runtime library functions that are part of VMS and the message texts are made available automatically by VMS. It is not the case that CMU/IP reporting an error code of 1C means something different to some part of VMS reporting it. They both mean process quota exceeded. Directly underneath that entry in the FAQ, I found the following: > >3.1.2 >>>> IPACP CRASH DUE TO QUOTA EXCEEDED [20-MAR-1995] > >For systems with a high IP load, IPACP may occasionally crash with a quota >exceeded. This does not refer to disk quota, but to one of the process quota >limits. Usually, the quota in question is BYTLM. > >The default BYTLM provided for IPACP (65536) is sufficient for only about 20 >connections. IPACP takes about 32000 for itself and each connection takes about >1872 bytes. This requirement is NOT currently documented. > >To increase the BYTLM for the IPACP, modify the IP_STARTUP.COM procedure and >change the value of the /BUFFER_LIMIT qualifier on the RUN command that starts >the IPACP process. Then shut down and restart IPACP. > >At the current time, there also appears to be a memory leak in IPACP which has >the effect of gradually reducing the available BYTLM over time. When this gets >close to zero, IPACP will hang (as it retries) and then crash soon afterwards. >It is therefore desirable to give IPACP more BYTLM than the typical load might >suggest. If this sort of crash is experienced, increase the BYTLM by 50% and >restart it. > > Looks like my pagefile quota guess was wrong and the culprit is BYTLM. However, I suspect the underlying cause of this problem has never been fully addressed and increasing the quota will not help, or worse, will help for about a week before the problem returns even more frequently. I cannot overemphasise how much relief will be experienced on the replacement of CMU/IP by something that works properly or even by something that doesn't mess up as badly. Problems that you didn't even know you had will go away, even ones which seemed unrelated to networking. On sunny days, the sun will seem brighter and the sky bluer :-) In my previous posting, I forgot to mention that you can also try: $ MCR NCP SHOW KNOWN LINE COUNTERS if running DECnet. This will give DECnet's view on any network media problems including those relating to other protocols going through the same network adapter. It probably won't have much to say about hardware failures in the network adapter though. Remember that on a half duplex ethernet, collisions are normal and expected but late collisions indicate a problem. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From aswood at t-online.de Wed Nov 19 13:07:53 2014 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 20:07:53 +0100 Subject: WG: Re: VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK Message-ID: <1XrAbZ-23L1BA0@fwd36.aul.t-online.de> Adrian and all listeners to this list, as promised I'd like to specify my interest more in detail. I'm esp. interested in the - VAX 7710, various processors + memory - AlphaServer GS60e - VAX 6610 and some of the smaller Alphas or all stuff fitting into the van. I'd take a 7,5t van to go from Germany to the UK to pick up these items. As in 2003, when I went with Fred (van Kempen) to London to pickup a large PDP11 systems at Zetter, I'm offering interested persons to accompany this trip to the UK. On the other hand I'd offer the possibility to pick up items into the van to carry these to continental Europe to be distributed to interested persons. Accompanying people, or for items to be carried to Continental Europe would have to share costs for the van and the ferry costs to the UK. @Adrian - what is the time frame for picking up these items? Andreas -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK Datum: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 18:48:44 +0100 Von: Andreas Holz An: "binarydinosaurs at gmail.com" Adrian, we are interested - in all stuff. Please give me time until tomorrow to specify our interests in detail. Andreas > Am 17.11.2014 um 18:02 schrieb Adrian Graham : > > Folks, > > Thanks to building reductions we're having to offload all our old VAX kit > and I'd much rather see it go to someone who can use them, even as spares. > There's also a load of UNIBUS and QBUS spares, too many to list. > > Big stuff: > > VAX 7710, various processors + memory > AlphaServer GS60e > Possibly VAX 6610 > > Less big stuff: > > Alpha 2100 + spares > Alpha 2000 > Alpha 800 > Alpha 1000 x3 > AlphaStation 2xx x4 (spares only) > 2 MicroVAX 2000 > Various VAXstations, 3100s etc + spares > Several BA415 VAXen, 3400/3800/4200/4300 > VAXstation 4000s > Possibly an Alpha1200 and DS20 (big box version) > > Collection only, obviously these things are HEAVY. > > Cheers, > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Nov 19 16:25:12 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 22:25:12 +0000 (WET) Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 18 Nov 2014 16:13:39 -0800" References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150058.0852B2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <01PF5HHDHDXW003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> > >Speaking of old Philips drives, can the weird caddies for the CM-201 >(RRD40) drives be found anywhere? Anyone have any spares they don't >need? I have a couple of CM-201 drives and the companion SCSI >interface boards from an InfoServer. They are useless to me without >any caddies for them. > I've got a few caddies that seem to fit in an RRD40 but the only markings on them are a couple of arrows, "COMPACT disc" (on each side of the outside translucent shell) and "LABEL", "DATA" and "Made in Belgium" (on the inner flat-spectacle-frame-like-thingy). There is a group of four over four notches cut out of the front edge that look like they might have some significance. I've only just noticed now on examining one closely that on the other side from the notches is a little slide control not unlike the write protect on some types of magnetic media and the little arrow beside it actually looks like a head over platter type symbol. What's that about? I could send you one if nothing turns up in a better location (I'm in Ireland). Regards, Peter Coghlan. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 17:45:06 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 15:45:06 -0800 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: <01PF5HHDHDXW003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150058.0852B2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <01PF5HHDHDXW003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 2:25 PM, Peter Coghlan > > I've got a few caddies that seem to fit in an RRD40 but the only markings > on them are a couple of arrows, "COMPACT disc" (on each side of the outside > translucent shell) and "LABEL", "DATA" and "Made in Belgium" (on the inner > flat-spectacle-frame-like-thingy). There is a group of four over four notches > cut out of the front edge that look like they might have some significance. > > I've only just noticed now on examining one closely that on the other side > from the notches is a little slide control not unlike the write protect on > some types of magnetic media and the little arrow beside it actually looks > like a head over platter type symbol. What's that about? > Are there any good quality photos of RRD40/CM-201 caddies on the net somewhere? I only have a couple of the drives and have never seen the caddies myself so I don't know exactly what they look like and how you would recognize one for sure. -Glen From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 19:47:55 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 17:47:55 -0800 Subject: PET 6540 ROM operating temperature Message-ID: Hey all -- A quick one -- what's the normal operating temperature for the old MPS6540 ROMs used in the original Commodore PETs? I noticed last night after running mine for ~30 minutes that the ROMs were very hot, to the point of being painful to touch. The machine is running fine as far as I can tell -- though I haven't verified the contents of the ROMs, BASIC runs without any apparent issues. Voltages are normal (just a shade under 5V). I've not experienced ROM chips that run so very hot -- is this normal? Thanks, Josh From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 20:02:03 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 20:02:03 -0600 Subject: PET 6540 ROM operating temperature In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: IME, older ROM chips can get +quite+ warm.. but 'painful' is fairly subjective. I seem to recall ROM chips running hotter than the 6502/6510 CPU in some of my Commodore stuff. Do you have any way to quantify the temperature? A little HS compound & a digital cooking thermometer? On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 7:47 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > A quick one -- what's the normal operating temperature for the old MPS6540 > ROMs used in the original Commodore PETs? I noticed last night after > running mine for ~30 minutes that the ROMs were very hot, to the point of > being painful to touch. > > The machine is running fine as far as I can tell -- though I haven't > verified the contents of the ROMs, BASIC runs without any apparent issues. > Voltages are normal (just a shade under 5V). > > I've not experienced ROM chips that run so very hot -- is this normal? > > Thanks, > Josh > From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Thu Nov 20 00:30:56 2014 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 16:30:56 +1000 Subject: teaching young IT certed person about old minis/mainframes Message-ID: <546D8AA0.3000707@yahoo.com.au> A question for the ones that work in the industry and are working with old mini and/or mainframes: How do you teach a young IT certed person about the old minis/mainframe that your department maintains? From alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net Thu Nov 20 00:34:31 2014 From: alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net (Alex McWhirter) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 01:34:31 -0500 Subject: teaching young IT certed person about old minis/mainframes In-Reply-To: <546D8AA0.3000707@yahoo.com.au> References: <546D8AA0.3000707@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: <0D927BA4-F78B-47AA-B5A3-D79AD81CD9F5@mojovapes.net> I guess it depends on each persons definition of mainframes. We have some old sun machines that still chug along and I?ve setup a Solaris Zone for new employees to play with. Letting them play with it (while keeping the critical portions secure) has been the best way i have found to get people into it. That and a lot of old reference manuals. > On Nov 20, 2014, at 1:30 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: > > A question for the ones that work in the industry and are working with > old mini and/or mainframes: > > How do you teach a young IT certed person about the old minis/mainframe > that your department maintains? From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Nov 20 00:49:34 2014 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 07:49:34 +0100 Subject: teaching young IT certed person about old minis/mainframes References: <546D8AA0.3000707@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: <6C07D8303870441D916FC2789A7EDB68@udvikling> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Sparks" >A question for the ones that work in the industry and are working with > old mini and/or mainframes: > > How do you teach a young IT certed person about the old minis/mainframe > that your department maintains? I would say that the first thing to explain is the difference between today and say 20-30-40 years ago. There was a time when most things were done batchwise, as the systems were rather small (compared to today) and on-line updates impossible. Forexample, one of the first machines i worked on, an IBM 360/40 has a whopping 128k memory, 4x IBM 2311 drives (7.25 MB each), and 8 tapedrives. As recent as two weeks ago, I was in the netherlands to collect 2 harddrives for Philips minis from the 70's 80's; each had a capacity of 2 x 2.5 MB Long ago, programming was a form of art; you had to do with what was available; today it is more like throwing tools together, and hope that they stick :-) /Nico From isking at uw.edu Wed Nov 19 19:50:23 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 17:50:23 -0800 Subject: DELUA technical manual, VAX diagnostic In-Reply-To: <01PF52S4KHIC003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA018590616F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <546AE9A2.1090300@update.uu.se> <01PF44ABXHOO003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <546C2820.9040308@update.uu.se> <01PF52S4KHIC003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: I have to say this about the LCM VAX: it successfully ran CMUIP for a rather long time. The pattern of failures, becoming more and more frequent, seems to conform to a hardware issue rather than one of software. The machine has never had a large load - when I watched it regularly, there were rarely more than a handful of users at any one time. The machine has been power-cycled in response to errors, which would of course reinitialize all transient data structures - and I do not believe that CMUIP uses persistent caches (i.e. cached to disk). Yes, LCM could just load UCX and perhaps whistle a happy tune. It might be an interesting experiment to do so and observe behavior - the changes in the startup script could easily be commented in/out. I'd certainly like to see them continue to use CMUIP for historical reasons. Multinet would also be interesting, if policies have changed at LCM to provide for licensing costs of that software. When I was restoring the machine back in 2008-9, Process Software offered a somewhat amusing 'discount' for an educational institution. -- Ian On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 8:03 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > >> One thing, though. >> I don't think that the error code from the $QIO in the OPCOM log is a >> VMS exit code. But I might be wrong on that. >> But that could do with some more examining. >> >> > There is a poorly phrased entry in the CMU/IP FAQ which could give the > impression that CMU/IP uses it's own error codes that are entirely > different > from VMS status codes. What I think it is really trying to say is that > like > many VMS applications, CMU/IP defines _additional_ status codes that VMS > does > not already have suitable messages defined for and the text messages > associated > with these are not available unless the appropriate CMU/IP provided message > files are loaded. > > Low numbered error codes such as 1C (and another favourite - 0C which is > %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation) come from system services and runtime > library functions that are part of VMS and the message texts are made > available > automatically by VMS. It is not the case that CMU/IP reporting an error > code > of 1C means something different to some part of VMS reporting it. They > both > mean process quota exceeded. > > Directly underneath that entry in the FAQ, I found the following: > > >> 3.1.2 >>>> IPACP CRASH DUE TO QUOTA EXCEEDED >> [20-MAR-1995] >> >> For systems with a high IP load, IPACP may occasionally crash with a quota >> exceeded. This does not refer to disk quota, but to one of the process >> quota >> limits. Usually, the quota in question is BYTLM. >> >> The default BYTLM provided for IPACP (65536) is sufficient for only about >> 20 >> connections. IPACP takes about 32000 for itself and each connection takes >> > about > >> 1872 bytes. This requirement is NOT currently documented. >> >> To increase the BYTLM for the IPACP, modify the IP_STARTUP.COM procedure >> and >> change the value of the /BUFFER_LIMIT qualifier on the RUN command that >> starts >> the IPACP process. Then shut down and restart IPACP. >> >> At the current time, there also appears to be a memory leak in IPACP >> which has >> the effect of gradually reducing the available BYTLM over time. When this >> gets >> close to zero, IPACP will hang (as it retries) and then crash soon >> afterwards. >> It is therefore desirable to give IPACP more BYTLM than the typical load >> might >> suggest. If this sort of crash is experienced, increase the BYTLM by 50% >> and >> restart it. >> > > >> >> > Looks like my pagefile quota guess was wrong and the culprit is BYTLM. > However, > I suspect the underlying cause of this problem has never been fully > addressed > and increasing the quota will not help, or worse, will help for about a > week > before the problem returns even more frequently. > > I cannot overemphasise how much relief will be experienced on the > replacement > of CMU/IP by something that works properly or even by something that > doesn't > mess up as badly. Problems that you didn't even know you had will go away, > even ones which seemed unrelated to networking. On sunny days, the sun > will > seem brighter and the sky bluer :-) > > In my previous posting, I forgot to mention that you can also try: > > $ MCR NCP SHOW KNOWN LINE COUNTERS > > if running DECnet. This will give DECnet's view on any network media > problems > including those relating to other protocols going through the same network > adapter. It probably won't have much to say about hardware failures in the > network adapter though. Remember that on a half duplex ethernet, > collisions > are normal and expected but late collisions indicate a problem. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS Ph.D. Candidate The Information School University of Washington An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From pinball at telus.net Wed Nov 19 23:39:33 2014 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 21:39:33 -0800 Subject: PET 6540 ROM operating temperature In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <546D7E95.4030200@telus.net> On 11/19/2014, 5:47 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > A quick one -- what's the normal operating temperature for the old MPS6540 > ROMs used in the original Commodore PETs? I noticed last night after > running mine for ~30 minutes that the ROMs were very hot, to the point of > being painful to touch. > > The machine is running fine as far as I can tell -- though I haven't > verified the contents of the ROMs, BASIC runs without any apparent issues. > Voltages are normal (just a shade under 5V). > > I've not experienced ROM chips that run so very hot -- is this normal? > > Thanks, > Josh > A fan is a good idea on older electronics. the cooler they run the longer they last. A heat sink epoxied to the top of hot ceramic devices is not bad either... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From digitgraph at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 01:44:08 2014 From: digitgraph at gmail.com (John Kaur) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 00:44:08 -0700 Subject: PET 6540 ROM operating temperature In-Reply-To: <546D7E95.4030200@telus.net> References: <546D7E95.4030200@telus.net> Message-ID: My general rule, is if cannot hold your finger on for a count of five, you need fan directly on it (or sink, Robertson said), & experience has told me, that one-two years life!! John Kaur. in AZ where its hot> On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 10:39 PM, John Robertson wrote: > On 11/19/2014, 5:47 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Hey all -- >> >> A quick one -- what's the normal operating temperature for the old MPS6540 >> ROMs used in the original Commodore PETs? I noticed last night after >> running mine for ~30 minutes that the ROMs were very hot, to the point of >> being painful to touch. >> >> The machine is running fine as far as I can tell -- though I haven't >> verified the contents of the ROMs, BASIC runs without any apparent issues. >> Voltages are normal (just a shade under 5V). >> >> I've not experienced ROM chips that run so very hot -- is this normal? >> >> Thanks, >> Josh >> >> A fan is a good idea on older electronics. the cooler they run the > longer they last. A heat sink epoxied to the top of hot ceramic devices is > not bad either... > > John :-#)# > > -- > John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 > Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) > www.flippers.com > "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 03:29:56 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 09:29:56 -0000 Subject: teaching young IT certed person about old minis/mainframes In-Reply-To: <546D8AA0.3000707@yahoo.com.au> References: <546D8AA0.3000707@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: <004e01d004a4$91308c50$b391a4f0$@gmail.com> You probably don't. What you need to do is get them in a learning mood, where they want to learn, and then they may teach themselves. How you do this depends on the business culture where you are and the person themselves, and the resources you have available. When you say "maintain" what does this involve, hardware maintenance, software maintence, admin tasks such as adding user accounts, backups? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom > Sparks > Sent: 20 November 2014 06:31 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: teaching young IT certed person about old minis/mainframes > > A question for the ones that work in the industry and are working with old > mini and/or mainframes: > > How do you teach a young IT certed person about the old minis/mainframe > that your department maintains? From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Nov 20 04:54:56 2014 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 10:54:56 +0000 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150058.0852B2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <01PF5HHDHDXW003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Here's one that looks like mine: http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/cm201.jpg The Owner's manual is on the web too: http://www.carelife.com/manuals/RDD40_Optical_Drive_Owner_Manual.PDF and that has drawings of the caddy. There's an even better drawing here: http://thedecyears.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/VMS-Online-Documentation-Library-Disc-Users-Guide-AA-ND24S-RE.pdf Antonio On 19 November 2014 23:45, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 2:25 PM, Peter Coghlan > > > I've got a few caddies that seem to fit in an RRD40 but the only markings > > on them are a couple of arrows, "COMPACT disc" (on each side of the > outside > > translucent shell) and "LABEL", "DATA" and "Made in Belgium" (on the > inner > > flat-spectacle-frame-like-thingy). There is a group of four over four > notches > > cut out of the front edge that look like they might have some > significance. > > > > I've only just noticed now on examining one closely that on the other > side > > from the notches is a little slide control not unlike the write protect > on > > some types of magnetic media and the little arrow beside it actually > looks > > like a head over platter type symbol. What's that about? > > > > Are there any good quality photos of RRD40/CM-201 caddies on the net > somewhere? I only have a couple of the drives and have never seen the > caddies myself so I don't know exactly what they look like and how you > would recognize one for sure. > > -Glen > From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Thu Nov 20 04:58:32 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 10:58:32 +0000 (WET) Subject: teaching young IT certed person about old minis/mainframes In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 20 Nov 2014 16:30:56 +1000" <546D8AA0.3000707@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: <01PF68HCAG4M003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> > >A question for the ones that work in the industry and are working with >old mini and/or mainframes: > >How do you teach a young IT certed person about the old minis/mainframe >that your department maintains? > I'm not working with minis or mainframes now but I did once. Some time after, I had an interesting conversation with a young buck. His facination was virtualisation products such as VMWare. He was surprised and very interested to hear of VM/370 and what it was capable of decades earlier and even more surprised to hear that its descendant is in use now for bang up to date applications yet he had not come across it. Minis and mainframes might be regarded by someone with a 1GB mobile phone as obsolete/slow/difficult/irrelevant/restrictive/clunky or whatever but if you can relate them to something they are interested in their attitudes can change quickly. Another angle is to appeal to their hacker instinct. Tell them about system security. Get them to test it. I'll bet that having someone take a fresh approach will turn up security holes that nobody knew about as well as getting them to teach themselves about the system. A bit of guidance is required of course to avoid them doing actual damage if they should stumble into something lacking the appropriate protection. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Thu Nov 20 06:22:53 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 12:22:53 +0000 (WET) Subject: DELUA technical manual, VAX diagnostic In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 19 Nov 2014 17:50:23 -0800" References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA018590616F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <546AE9A2.1090300@update.uu.se> <01PF44ABXHOO003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <546C2820.9040308@update.uu.se> <01PF52S4KHIC003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01PF6BR3J0FA003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> > >I have to say this about the LCM VAX: it successfully ran CMUIP for a >rather long time. The pattern of failures, becoming more and more >frequent, seems to conform to a hardware issue rather than one of >software. The machine has never had a large load - when I watched it >regularly, there were rarely more than a handful of users at any one time. >The machine has been power-cycled in response to errors, which would of >course reinitialize all transient data structures - and I do not believe >that CMUIP uses persistent caches (i.e. cached to disk). > I have this amazing feeling of deja-vu all over again :-) Here, CMU/IP ran ok for ages but then died every few hours for a couple of days. Then it ran ok for another few weeks or months. We blamed the hardware and gave the resident DEC engineer a pain over it. We ran CMU/IP on several machines and that it seemd to die on some but not on others lent weight to the hardware theory but there was nothing wrong with our hardware. (We also blamed network problems, and there were network problems but they were nothing to do with CMU/IP falling over.) Our former colleague who had jumped ship and went to work for an outfit with money had ditched CMU/IP and pleaded with us to see the light and do the same but we persisted in trying to debug CMU/IP or to place the problem elsewhere. He had the same problems convincing us that I am having now. The machines where it wasn't falling over had lousy performance and were painful to use interactively with delayed and jerky echoing and general grief, whether anyone was logged in via CMU/IP or not. All this went away when CMU/IP was removed. It was a revelation to us how smooth and responsive the machines could be. I guess the museum is doing it's job perfectly - it's giving me a vivid recreation of something I went through 20 years ago :-) I hate to pour scorn on free software that people have obviously put a huge amount of effort into producing but it was not ready for prime time 20 years ago and it has not changed since. One of the big strengths VMS has is reliability. CMU/IP puts a serious dent in that. It also defeats the logical approach to problem solving that VMS normally promotes and remains one of the very few VMS applications that requires reboots to untangle it. If ever there was a case for for putting a sofware exhibit in a glass case and looking at it rather than using it, CMU/IP is it. > >Yes, LCM could just load UCX and perhaps whistle a happy tune. It might be >an interesting experiment to do so and observe behavior - the changes in >the startup script could easily be commented in/out. I'd certainly like to >see them continue to use CMUIP for historical reasons. Multinet would also >be interesting, if policies have changed at LCM to provide for licensing >costs of that software. When I was restoring the machine back in 2008-9, >Process Software offered a somewhat amusing 'discount' for an educational >institution. -- Ian > Check the error log first, just in case. I don't know whether UCX is compatible with happy tunes. Early versions did not enjoy a good reputation but maybe it has improved. Still, it's got to be better than CMU/IP and it might exonerate the hardware. It might be worth contacting Process again. Things might have changed over the last five years. Maybe they might be open to a special deal for a contemporary version of Multinet on a museum exhibit if your machine is not also used for more than that? Regard, Peter Coghlan. From bensinc at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 09:37:22 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 09:37:22 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141119183950.5AB1718C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141119183950.5AB1718C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > Here it is in address/location form: > > 60 1020 > 62 200 > > 1000 12706 > 1002 2000 > 1004 12701 > 1006 177560 > 1010 12711 > 1012 100 > 1014 1 > 1016 776 > 1020 116161 > 1022 2 > 1024 6 > 1026 2 > > Start with "1000G" to ODT. It should echo everything you type, using > interrupts from the console DL11 to do so. > It doesn't seem to work on mine, so maybe I am having an interrupt problem on the DLV11! There are some options on how the interrupt vector can be configured, but I believe I have mine set to the factory defaults. I have V6 jumpered, V7 jumpered, and V5 on X to 0. According to the manual, that's the factory setting. Is that how you have yours setup? -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Thu Nov 20 09:35:46 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 15:35:46 +0000 (WET) Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 20 Nov 2014 10:54:56 +0000" References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150058.0852B2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <01PF5HHDHDXW003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01PF6GOEYXS2003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> > >Here's one that looks like mine: > >http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/cm201.jpg > >The Owner's manual is on the web too: > >http://www.carelife.com/manuals/RDD40_Optical_Drive_Owner_Manual.PDF > >and that has drawings of the caddy. > >There's an even better drawing here: >http://thedecyears.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/VMS-Online-Documentation- Library-Disc-Users-Guide-AA-ND24S-RE.pdf > Thanks Antonio. The pictures all depict exactly what I have here. It is possible to just about make out the little slider control in some of them but there is nothing to explain what it is for or even acknowledge it's existance. I'm intrigued. The owners manual seems to suggest that these CD things are far too delicate to be handled and each should live permanently in it's own dedicated caddy :-) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 20 10:32:19 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 11:32:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141120163219.C803B18C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair > It doesn't seem to work on mine, so maybe I am having an interrupt > problem on the DLV11! Definitely an interrupt problem of some kind! But this is a big step; knowing we have a specific problem, we can try and track it to its lair. > I have V6 jumpered, V7 jumpered, and V5 on X to 0. According to the > manual, that's the factory setting. Is that how you have yours setup? Yes. So the first question is 'do you have a spare DLV11-J you can swap in'? I'm assuming the answer is 'no'. :-) Where are you located? Noel From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Thu Nov 20 10:33:55 2014 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 02:33:55 +1000 Subject: teaching young IT certed person about old minis/mainframes In-Reply-To: <004e01d004a4$91308c50$b391a4f0$@gmail.com> References: <546D8AA0.3000707@yahoo.com.au> <004e01d004a4$91308c50$b391a4f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <546E17F3.7050101@yahoo.com.au> On 20/11/14 19:29, Dave G4UGM wrote: > You probably don't. What you need to do is get them in a learning mood, where they want to learn, and then they may teach themselves. How you do this depends on the business culture where you are and the person themselves, and the resources you have available. When you say "maintain" what does this involve, hardware maintenance, software maintence, admin tasks such as adding user accounts, backups? > > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom >> Sparks >> Sent: 20 November 2014 06:31 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: teaching young IT certed person about old minis/mainframes >> >> A question for the ones that work in the industry and are working with old >> mini and/or mainframes: >> >> How do you teach a young IT certed person about the old minis/mainframe >> that your department maintains? > I would like hear some war stories...... the know-it-alls, the ph**k-ups, the clients from hell, etc tom From bensinc at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 10:38:15 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 10:38:15 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141120163219.C803B18C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141120163219.C803B18C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I'm in Iowa, and unfortunately I don't any spares! I'll check eBay in a bit and see if there are any good ones up there right now. They seem to come up pretty frequently! On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ben Sinclair > > > It doesn't seem to work on mine, so maybe I am having an interrupt > > problem on the DLV11! > > Definitely an interrupt problem of some kind! But this is a big step; > knowing > we have a specific problem, we can try and track it to its lair. > > > I have V6 jumpered, V7 jumpered, and V5 on X to 0. According to the > > manual, that's the factory setting. Is that how you have yours setup? > > Yes. > > So the first question is 'do you have a spare DLV11-J you can swap in'? I'm > assuming the answer is 'no'. :-) Where are you located? > > Noel > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From bensinc at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 10:48:40 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 10:48:40 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141120163219.C803B18C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I did find a Sigma brand M8043 equivalent on eBay for a decent price (via a make best offer). Is using non-DEC hardware just adding more variables, or are they generally okay? I do like that it has dip switches rather than wire wrapped jumpers! On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 10:38 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I'm in Iowa, and unfortunately I don't any spares! I'll check eBay in a > bit and see if there are any good ones up there right now. They seem to > come up pretty frequently! > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> > From: Ben Sinclair >> >> > It doesn't seem to work on mine, so maybe I am having an interrupt >> > problem on the DLV11! >> >> Definitely an interrupt problem of some kind! But this is a big step; >> knowing >> we have a specific problem, we can try and track it to its lair. >> >> > I have V6 jumpered, V7 jumpered, and V5 on X to 0. According to the >> > manual, that's the factory setting. Is that how you have yours >> setup? >> >> Yes. >> >> So the first question is 'do you have a spare DLV11-J you can swap in'? >> I'm >> assuming the answer is 'no'. :-) Where are you located? >> >> Noel >> > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From roeapeterson at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 11:02:15 2014 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 11:02:15 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141120163219.C803B18C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <46CA7F5A-4570-46D7-855A-BAD56764D474@gmail.com> > On Nov 20, 2014, at 10:48 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > I did find a Sigma brand M8043 equivalent on eBay for a decent price (via a > make best offer). Is using non-DEC hardware just adding more variables, or > are they generally okay? I do like that it has dip switches rather than > wire wrapped jumpers! I've used sigma lookalikes many times, and _never_ had a problem, including booting emulated TU58 from the port at 776500. Sigma had a very good rep back in the day, along with emulex and (later) CMD. I also approve of the dipswitches :-) From other at oryx.cc Thu Nov 20 10:48:46 2014 From: other at oryx.cc (Jerry Kemp) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 10:48:46 -0600 Subject: teaching young IT certed person about old minis/mainframes In-Reply-To: <004e01d004a4$91308c50$b391a4f0$@gmail.com> References: <546D8AA0.3000707@yahoo.com.au> <004e01d004a4$91308c50$b391a4f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <546E1B6E.3010007@oryx.cc> On 11/20/14 03:29 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > You probably don't. I have to 2nd Dave's comment above. I love being an IT person, but you have to have a continual drive to move forward and succeed. Long, weird hours are not uncommon, and when you aren't working, at least some of your free time should be spent training & studying for what ever is coming up next. And, typically anyone succeeding in the above environment should be rewarded for their efforts, unfortunately, any financial rewards are tempered by competitors from 3rd world countries happy to work for pennies on the dollar. If you want to plant a seed, or answer questions, thats great. But even at a junior level, if you want to stay ahead, that drive has to be there, and there is no substitute for it. Jerry > What you need to do is get them in a learning mood, > where they want to learn, and then they may teach themselves. How you do this depends > on the business culture where you are and the person themselves, and the > resources you have available. When you say "maintain" what does this involve, > hardware maintenance, software maintence, admin tasks such as adding user > accounts, backups? > > Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 20 13:05:54 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 19:05:54 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: <20141120163219.C803B18C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141120163219.C803B18C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > So the first question is 'do you have a spare DLV11-J you can swap in'? I'm > assuming the answer is 'no'. :-) Where are you located? Err, isn't the first question 'Do you have a logic analyser?' I am quite sure the DLV11-J printset is available. -tony From bensinc at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 13:15:12 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 13:15:12 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141120163219.C803B18C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I don't have one, though I'm looking into getting one to help with a 6502 home-brew project. On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 1:05 PM, tony duell wrote: > > > > So the first question is 'do you have a spare DLV11-J you can swap in'? > I'm > > assuming the answer is 'no'. :-) Where are you located? > > Err, isn't the first question 'Do you have a logic analyser?' I am quite > sure the DLV11-J > printset is available. > > -tony -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 12:29:50 2014 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 19:29:50 +0100 Subject: VAXen available, pickup only from Newmarket, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <546E331E.1060105@gmail.com> Hello Andreas, hello Adrian, I'm interested on all UNIBUS (and possibly QBUS boards) and also to VAX 2000. I'm ready to pay an amount (but I expect it should be in proportion with the weight). How much would you ask to pick and ship? Andreas: I can't reach you via direct email, please check your SPAM service and contact me! Thanks Waiting for acknowledgment. Thanks Andrea From azd30 at telus.net Thu Nov 20 13:26:27 2014 From: azd30 at telus.net (azd30) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 12:26:27 -0700 (MST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141120163219.C803B18C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <325276682.5598573.1416511587837.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ben Sinclair" > Subject: Re: PDP-11/23 Debugging > > I did find a Sigma brand M8043 equivalent on eBay for a decent price (via a > make best offer). Is using non-DEC hardware just adding more variables, or > are they generally okay? I do like that it has dip switches rather than > wire wrapped jumpers! Sigma's are just as good as DEC boards... I have one in a system with no problems. If it's the board that 'efi' is selling, here's a link to the manual http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/sigmaInformationSystems/400200B_SCD-DLV11J_4-Port_Manual_Jun82.pdf FWIW, the board that I have in my system was purchased from him... cheers alex From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 20 13:28:27 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 19:28:27 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <20141120163219.C803B18C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> , Message-ID: [Logic analyser] > I don't have one, though I'm looking into getting one to help with a 6502 > home-brew project. Do you have a simple logic probe? If you disable the LTC interrupt for the moment then the console port should be the only thing generating interrupts. You can see if it is asserting bus request, if the grant is getting back to it, if it's then trying to do an interrupt cycle, etc -tony From sales at elecplus.com Thu Nov 20 13:36:40 2014 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 13:36:40 -0600 Subject: mainframes and other stuff Message-ID: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> Mainframes and other stuff Recycle center in NC is willing to save out "stuff" for people. No, no one can go in the back and scrounge. No, he does not want a lot of emails from people. Yes, he gets big blue and orange and beige 6 foot tall OLD mainframes in all the time. They squash them at the moment. Yes, he will package small orders, and will properly palletize larger orders. Local pick up will be available after the new year. So, if u can send me a picture with description and some part numbers, along with what you want to pay, I will consolidate things and make arrangements. Please don't ask for specific boards from DEC; they don't want to go into that much detail. QBUS will mean nothing to him. Big orange cabinet that says xxxxx is much more likely to get saved. They are moving to new warehouse 1st of the month, so all this will start happening after the 1st of the year. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-792-3400 phone 830-792-3404 fax sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 20 13:37:44 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 14:37:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/23 Debugging Message-ID: <20141120193744.653E918C12C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: tony duell > Err, isn't the first question 'Do you have a logic analyser?' Depends on who you're talking to... :-) > From: Ben Sinclair > I did find a Sigma brand M8043 equivalent on eBay for a decent price > (via a make best offer). Is using non-DEC hardware just adding more > variables, or are they generally okay? There are 3 factors to consider in using non-DEC boards these days, I find. #1 - Can you get documentation? (In this case, yes. I have some where the answer is a resounding no, e.g. a Clearpoint DCME/Q4E 4MB PMI memory card.) #2 - Can you get the cables/etc? I don't know the answer in this case; I will note that this apparently doe not use the same cable as a DLV11-J - it uses a 40-pin header - _but_ you may be able to plug your DLV11-J cable into it. There's an page that talks about it a bit: http://www.avitech.com.au/pdp-11-03/ba11nc.html#SCD-DLV11J/8P although note that there seems to be something wrong with the URL for the image of the board on that page, this works: http://www.avitech.com.au/pdp-11-03/pictures/SCD-DLV11J-8P_640X480.jpg and according to that page, you can plug a 10-pin shell into the 40-pin header. Seems slightly dubious to me, but maybe it'd work! #3 - How good were the boards when they were new? Reliable, flaky, etc? In this case, Sigma mostly made pretty good stuff, although I have no experience with this particular card. Your call! Noel From sales at elecplus.com Thu Nov 20 13:41:25 2014 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 13:41:25 -0600 Subject: old DEC boards Message-ID: <015601d004f9$f8b93700$ea2ba500$@com> NC won't save by PN, but they will save by general description, like the ones with the purple or white tabs on the ends, they can pull those easily enough. If these are still wanted, can people please send me some pictures? What will probably be sent is a box of x number of boards weighing x pounds that have purple tabs, or white tabs, or whatever is asked for. Also need to know what people want to pay. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-792-3400 phone 830-792-3404 fax sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls From alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net Thu Nov 20 13:41:57 2014 From: alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net (Alex McWhirter) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 14:41:57 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> Message-ID: <0F9C8643-122D-46DC-A8E6-91591D158888@mojovapes.net> I would have an interest in any larger Sun or IBM machines that aren?t x86. How many of these machines do they keep around? > On Nov 20, 2014, at 2:36 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > > Mainframes and other stuff > > > > Recycle center in NC is willing to save out "stuff" for people. > > No, no one can go in the back and scrounge. > > No, he does not want a lot of emails from people. > > Yes, he gets big blue and orange and beige 6 foot tall OLD mainframes in all > the time. They squash them at the moment. > > Yes, he will package small orders, and will properly palletize larger > orders. > > Local pick up will be available after the new year. > > > > So, if u can send me a picture with description and some part numbers, along > with what you want to pay, I will consolidate things and make arrangements. > > Please don't ask for specific boards from DEC; they don't want to go into > that much detail. > > QBUS will mean nothing to him. > > Big orange cabinet that says xxxxx is much more likely to get saved. > > > > They are moving to new warehouse 1st of the month, so all this will start > happening after the 1st of the year. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-792-3400 phone > > 830-792-3404 fax > > sales at elecplus.com > > AOL IM elcpls > > > From sales at elecplus.com Thu Nov 20 13:50:34 2014 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 13:50:34 -0600 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <0F9C8643-122D-46DC-A8E6-91591D158888@mojovapes.net> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <0F9C8643-122D-46DC-A8E6-91591D158888@mojovapes.net> Message-ID: <016701d004fb$3f8ef420$beacdc60$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alex McWhirter Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 1:42 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: mainframes and other stuff I would have an interest in any larger Sun or IBM machines that aren?t x86. How many of these machines do they keep around? None at the moment. Not x86 is not specific enough. RS6000 series, or RS6000 model xxxx-xxx would work. Sun pizza box won't work, but Sparc Station 2, 3, 4, these will; do you see what I mean? Cindy > On Nov 20, 2014, at 2:36 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > > Mainframes and other stuff > > > > Recycle center in NC is willing to save out "stuff" for people. > > No, no one can go in the back and scrounge. > > No, he does not want a lot of emails from people. > > Yes, he gets big blue and orange and beige 6 foot tall OLD mainframes > in all the time. They squash them at the moment. > > Yes, he will package small orders, and will properly palletize larger > orders. > > Local pick up will be available after the new year. > > > > So, if u can send me a picture with description and some part numbers, > along with what you want to pay, I will consolidate things and make arrangements. > > Please don't ask for specific boards from DEC; they don't want to go > into that much detail. > > QBUS will mean nothing to him. > > Big orange cabinet that says xxxxx is much more likely to get saved. > > > > They are moving to new warehouse 1st of the month, so all this will > start happening after the 1st of the year. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-792-3400 phone > > 830-792-3404 fax > > sales at elecplus.com > > AOL IM elcpls > > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4794 / Virus Database: 4189/8600 - Release Date: 11/20/14 From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 14:31:34 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 15:31:34 -0500 Subject: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage conditions Message-ID: Hey all, I've been getting the bug worse and worse to start working on a real pdp11. The Raspberry Pi / simh emulation is fantastic, but my hunger for authenticity is becoming rampant. I haven't run the youngest in my fleet of pdp11s, the 11/73, since circa 2002 and if I recall correctly, it was becoming flaky and popping out to ODT inexplicably from time to time back then (I think this is the one with the notoriously combustible power supply wires that probably haven't been ECO'd yet -- need to get to that too). It's been lying in a warehouse in western Pennsylvania with no heat and a lot of dust. So, worst case, we're talking temperature transients around 110 F and -20 F with no protection. It did stay quite dry. Think it'd be bad to simply blow the dust off and fire it up? thx jake From roeapeterson at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 14:54:02 2014 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 14:54:02 -0600 Subject: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage conditions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93DD775A-1D65-4D67-9CF9-5A13018F0FDB@gmail.com> > On Nov 20, 2014, at 2:31 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > > Hey all, > I've been getting the bug worse and worse to start working on a real > pdp11. The Raspberry Pi / simh emulation is fantastic, but my hunger for > authenticity is becoming rampant. I haven't run the youngest in my fleet > of pdp11s, the 11/73, since circa 2002 and if I recall correctly, it was > becoming flaky and popping out to ODT inexplicably from time to time back > then (I think this is the one with the notoriously combustible power supply > wires that probably haven't been ECO'd yet -- need to get to that too). > It's been lying in a warehouse in western Pennsylvania with no heat and a > lot of dust. So, worst case, we're talking temperature transients around > 110 F and -20 F with no protection. It did stay quite dry. > > Think it'd be bad to simply blow the dust off and fire it up? There has been a lot of talk about reforming capacitors lately. I do not subscribe to it, mostly because the electronics guru I know (Gary Gough) doesn't. I would remove all the boards, blow it out, insert the minimum board set, (CPU, memory, DL console, maybe bus terminator depending on backplane) and just turn it on. Your mileage may vary... > > thx > jake From isking at uw.edu Thu Nov 20 14:55:38 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 12:55:38 -0800 Subject: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage conditions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At the very least, take a good long look at the power supply and its caps. Has the storage, as bad as it's been, been dry? If not, you'll almost certainly have corrosion all over the place, especially in the fastons ISTR run power to the backplane. (I haven't looked at my own 11/73 in a few years, but it's in a dry, temperature-stable basement.) Best of luck! - Ian On Nov 20, 2014 12:32 PM, "Jacob Ritorto" wrote: > Hey all, > I've been getting the bug worse and worse to start working on a real > pdp11. The Raspberry Pi / simh emulation is fantastic, but my hunger for > authenticity is becoming rampant. I haven't run the youngest in my fleet > of pdp11s, the 11/73, since circa 2002 and if I recall correctly, it was > becoming flaky and popping out to ODT inexplicably from time to time back > then (I think this is the one with the notoriously combustible power supply > wires that probably haven't been ECO'd yet -- need to get to that too). > It's been lying in a warehouse in western Pennsylvania with no heat and a > lot of dust. So, worst case, we're talking temperature transients around > 110 F and -20 F with no protection. It did stay quite dry. > > Think it'd be bad to simply blow the dust off and fire it up? > > thx > jake > From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com Thu Nov 20 15:18:24 2014 From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 08:18:24 +1100 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> Message-ID: Thanks Cindy for liaising with the recyclers on our collective behalf. On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 6:36 AM, Electronics Plus wrote: > Big orange cabinet that says xxxxx is much more likely to get saved. Recycler: Any small system cabinets (up to waist height) that have the brand UNISYS (or UNiSYS) CCMPers: This would trap machines like the A1, A4 A6, A7 (A-series machines running MCP) and System 80/7E (based on the A1/A4) - the System 80 is the IBM 360/370 compatible running OS3. There is also a nice series of UNIX machines (6000 series) but I've never seen one. UNISYS also re-badged the ALR 4X4 machines (quad Pentium Pro) to run MCP emulation. Picture examples of some models can be seen at the bottom of this webpage www.retroComputingTasmania.com For the A7 series even just getting someone nearby to pickup the machine and pull the SCAMP cards and drives is all that is needed - it will plug into either an ISA or EISA slot of a 486 or Pentium PC with a SCSI controller. The drives are important since they're brand checked by the operating system. Saving the whole machine is best as they're a nicely packaged (largish) PC. From alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net Thu Nov 20 15:36:35 2014 From: alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net (Alex McWhirter) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 16:36:35 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <016701d004fb$3f8ef420$beacdc60$@com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <0F9C8643-122D-46DC-A8E6-91591D158888@mojovapes.net> <016701d004fb$3f8ef420$beacdc60$@com> Message-ID: <71D9E8F8-2808-41F1-B2F0-50E30C30FE26@mojovapes.net> I would be looking for the following for Sun, ill have to double check on the IBM machines. Sun Fire T1000 Sun Fire T2000 Sun Fire T5140 Sun Fire T5240 Sun Fire T5440 Sun Enterprise 10000 Sun Fire E25K Sun Fire V490 Sun Fire V890 Sun Fire V1280 Sun Fire V245 Sun Fire V215 > On Nov 20, 2014, at 2:50 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alex McWhirter > Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 1:42 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: mainframes and other stuff > > I would have an interest in any larger Sun or IBM machines that aren?t x86. How many of these machines do they keep around? > > None at the moment. > > Not x86 is not specific enough. RS6000 series, or RS6000 model xxxx-xxx would work. > Sun pizza box won't work, but Sparc Station 2, 3, 4, these will; do you see what I mean? > > > Cindy > >> On Nov 20, 2014, at 2:36 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: >> >> Mainframes and other stuff >> >> >> >> Recycle center in NC is willing to save out "stuff" for people. >> >> No, no one can go in the back and scrounge. >> >> No, he does not want a lot of emails from people. >> >> Yes, he gets big blue and orange and beige 6 foot tall OLD mainframes >> in all the time. They squash them at the moment. >> >> Yes, he will package small orders, and will properly palletize larger >> orders. >> >> Local pick up will be available after the new year. >> >> >> >> So, if u can send me a picture with description and some part numbers, >> along with what you want to pay, I will consolidate things and make arrangements. >> >> Please don't ask for specific boards from DEC; they don't want to go >> into that much detail. >> >> QBUS will mean nothing to him. >> >> Big orange cabinet that says xxxxx is much more likely to get saved. >> >> >> >> They are moving to new warehouse 1st of the month, so all this will >> start happening after the 1st of the year. >> >> >> >> Cindy Croxton >> >> Electronics Plus >> >> 1613 Water Street >> >> Kerrville, TX 78028 >> >> 830-792-3400 phone >> >> 830-792-3404 fax >> >> sales at elecplus.com >> >> AOL IM elcpls >> >> >> > > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4794 / Virus Database: 4189/8600 - Release Date: 11/20/14 > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 20 15:38:12 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 16:38:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage conditions Message-ID: <20141120213812.77E0E18C124@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Roe Peterson roeapeterson at gmail.com > I would remove all the boards, blow it out, insert the minimum board > set, (CPU, memory, DL console, maybe bus terminator depending on > backplane) and just turn it on. That long in storage, I think that I'd probably go for powering it on with a dummy load first. It's not _that_ much more work, and it could save some expensive/rare electronics. It you don't have any QBUS Minimum Load Modules, get a couple of high-wattage resistors (down at Radio Slack, if necessary) and rig the equivalent. The M7556 MLM draws 1A of +5V, and I like to run two for testing. RS sells 10-Ohm/10-W resistors (ISTR they had smaller ones too, but I needed to test a 12V supply, hence the 10-W), so buy four... Probably a good idea to throw a 'scope on the DC power, too, check for ripple, etc. Noel From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 16:13:27 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 17:13:27 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <016701d004fb$3f8ef420$beacdc60$@com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <0F9C8643-122D-46DC-A8E6-91591D158888@mojovapes.net> <016701d004fb$3f8ef420$beacdc60$@com> Message-ID: > Not x86 is not specific enough. RS6000 series, or RS6000 model xxxx-xxx would work. > Sun pizza box won't work, but Sparc Station 2, 3, 4, these will; do you see what I mean? A good rule of thumb is that if it is IBM and has a square aluminum tag or rectangle tag with big numbers that take up a lot of the area of the tag, it is worth putting the side for further questioning. If it has an oval tag, not so much - but maybe. If it has no tag - just a label on the back or the letters IBM directly applied to the cabinet - probably not (yet). Another good rule of thumb with IBM is if the cabinet is painted any color other than white, grey, or black, it is worth investigation. ANYTHING from Control Data, Univac, or Burroughs is worth saving for questioning. Scrapping such things as these is financially foolish for the scrapper - real collectors will pay real money. -- Will From evan.linwood at eastek.com.au Thu Nov 20 18:11:42 2014 From: evan.linwood at eastek.com.au (Evan Linwood) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:11:42 +1100 Subject: old DEC boards In-Reply-To: <015601d004f9$f8b93700$ea2ba500$@com> References: <015601d004f9$f8b93700$ea2ba500$@com> Message-ID: <002e01d0051f$bb579a70$3206cf50$@eastek.com.au> Hi Cindy, I would be interested in Data General equipment, such as items labelled: Data General Eclipse System Data General Eclipse S/nnn Data General Eclipse C/nnn Data General Eclipse MV/nnnn These systems are usually seen installed in blue, brown or white cabinets, where nnn/nnnn is any combination of digits/characters. These systems come in a variety of sizes/configs, it's hard really to imagine a price range without knowing a bit more? Thanks it's great that you're helping facilitate this, Evan -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics Plus Sent: Friday, 21 November 2014 6:41 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: old DEC boards NC won't save by PN, but they will save by general description, like the ones with the purple or white tabs on the ends, they can pull those easily enough. If these are still wanted, can people please send me some pictures? What will probably be sent is a box of x number of boards weighing x pounds that have purple tabs, or white tabs, or whatever is asked for. Also need to know what people want to pay. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-792-3400 phone 830-792-3404 fax sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 19:38:45 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 17:38:45 -0800 Subject: PET 6540 ROM operating temperature In-Reply-To: References: <546D7E95.4030200@telus.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 11:44 PM, John Kaur wrote: > My general rule, is if cannot hold your finger on for a count of five, you > need fan directly on it (or sink, Robertson said), & experience has told > me, that one-two years life!! > John Kaur. in AZ where its hot> > > On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 10:39 PM, John Robertson > wrote: > > > On 11/19/2014, 5:47 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > >> Hey all -- > >> > >> A quick one -- what's the normal operating temperature for the old > MPS6540 > >> ROMs used in the original Commodore PETs? I noticed last night after > >> running mine for ~30 minutes that the ROMs were very hot, to the point > of > >> being painful to touch. > >> > >> The machine is running fine as far as I can tell -- though I haven't > >> verified the contents of the ROMs, BASIC runs without any apparent > issues. > >> Voltages are normal (just a shade under 5V). > >> > >> I've not experienced ROM chips that run so very hot -- is this normal? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Josh > >> > >> A fan is a good idea on older electronics. the cooler they run the > > longer they last. A heat sink epoxied to the top of hot ceramic devices > is > > not bad either... > Oh, very much understood. I don't really want to bandage over a problem, though -- if these ROMs aren't *supposed* to be running hot then I'd like to know so I can address the issue properly. If this is normal behavior then I'll probably do something to help reduce the heat and prolong the (already limited) life of these 6540s. Does anyone with direct experience with 6540s have any input here? Thanks, Josh > > > > John :-#)# > > > > -- > > John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 > > Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) > > www.flippers.com > > "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" > > > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 20 20:15:44 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 20:15:44 -0600 Subject: equipment available Message-ID: <003501d00531$0e7290f0$2b57b2d0$@classiccmp.org> DEC Rainbow, working. No shipping - local pickup only, Colorado Springs area. Email me off-list if interested. J From pinball at telus.net Thu Nov 20 20:33:40 2014 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 18:33:40 -0800 Subject: PET 6540 ROM operating temperature In-Reply-To: References: <546D7E95.4030200@telus.net> Message-ID: <546EA484.4030302@telus.net> On 11/20/2014, 5:38 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 11:44 PM, John Kaur wrote: > >> My general rule, is if cannot hold your finger on for a count of five, you >> need fan directly on it (or sink, Robertson said), & experience has told >> me, that one-two years life!! >> John Kaur. in AZ where its hot> >> >> On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 10:39 PM, John Robertson >> wrote: >> >>> On 11/19/2014, 5:47 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>>> Hey all -- >>>> >>>> A quick one -- what's the normal operating temperature for the old >> MPS6540 >>>> ROMs used in the original Commodore PETs? I noticed last night after >>>> running mine for ~30 minutes that the ROMs were very hot, to the point >> of >>>> being painful to touch. >>>> >>>> The machine is running fine as far as I can tell -- though I haven't >>>> verified the contents of the ROMs, BASIC runs without any apparent >> issues. >>>> Voltages are normal (just a shade under 5V). >>>> >>>> I've not experienced ROM chips that run so very hot -- is this normal? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Josh >>>> >>>> A fan is a good idea on older electronics. the cooler they run the >>> longer they last. A heat sink epoxied to the top of hot ceramic devices >> is >>> not bad either... > > Oh, very much understood. I don't really want to bandage over a problem, > though -- if these ROMs aren't *supposed* to be running hot then I'd like > to know so I can address the issue properly. If this is normal behavior > then I'll probably do something to help reduce the heat and prolong the > (already limited) life of these 6540s. > > Does anyone with direct experience with 6540s have any input here? > > Thanks, > Josh > Not direct, but you should read/archive those PROM images so you can use something like the Commodore collectors use to replace theirs when they die: http://home.comcast.net/~medasaro/6540rom.com/6540romadapter.html http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?27671-How-to-read-6540-ROM%B4s These ROMs used from 110 to a max of 150ma @ 5VDC which is 0.75W. Hmm, how hot is that to the touch? John :-#)# > >>> John :-#)# >>> -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 21:09:12 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 21:09:12 -0600 Subject: PET 6540 ROM operating temperature In-Reply-To: <546EA484.4030302@telus.net> References: <546D7E95.4030200@telus.net> <546EA484.4030302@telus.net> Message-ID: Weeeelll.. On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 8:33 PM, John Robertson wrote: > These ROMs used from 110 to a max of 150ma @ 5VDC which is 0.75W. Hmm, how > hot is that to the touch? I guess that depends on whether or not you're up for a discussion of specific heat aka heat capacity.. ;-) But I won't be the one to start it. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 22:21:09 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 21:21:09 -0700 Subject: 5.25" SCSI Drives In-Reply-To: <546C4752.8050203@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <201411181540.KAA13738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <546C4752.8050203@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 12:31 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Am 18.11.14 16:40, schrieb Mouse: >> 5.25" 68-pin drives? That's quite the novelty They were quite common, actually. Obviously >4 orders of magnitude less so now. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 22:32:20 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 21:32:20 -0700 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 2:43 PM, tony duell wrote: > What is Current Transfer Logic, the machine seems to be full of such ICs? Any data sheets, > etc out there? I don't know about Current Transfer Logic, but my vague recollection (probably wrong) was that it used Signetics Utilogic II and Fairchild CuL or CTuL families. There are three different years' Utilogic databooks on Bitsavers. There is some data on CuL and CTuL in the 1969 Fairchild Data Catalog on Bitsavers. If it's not any of those, then I have no idea. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 20 23:33:25 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 05:33:25 +0000 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 2:43 PM, tony duell wrote: > > What is Current Transfer Logic, the machine seems to be full of such ICs? Any data sheets, . > etc out there? > I don't know about Current Transfer Logic, but my vague recollection > (probably wrong) was that it used Signetics Utilogic II and Fairchild > CuL or CTuL families. There are three different years' Utilogic > databooks on Bitsavers. There is some data on CuL and CTuL in the 1969 > Fairchild Data Catalog on Bitsavers. Yes, you're right. It's CTuL. The HP parts lists in the manuals call them 'CTL', I foolishly looked that up on Google and got a translation to 'Current Transfer Logic'. No, it's 'Complementary Transistor microLogic', which seems to be somewhat ECL-like. The HP2100A and the interfaces I have seem to be a mixture of CTuL and normal TTL parts. I assume the former are unobtainium now, let's just hope that's not where any faults are. I will take a look at the Fairchild book on bitsavers, thanks... -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Nov 20 23:49:33 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 21:49:33 -0800 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2014-Nov-19, at 1:43 PM, tony duell wrote: > Anyway, I came across my HP2100A minicomputer, so I took a long look at it (seriously, I must have > spent a couple of hours pulling boards, etc). Some day I would like to get it running again. ... > 12531-60022 Buffered TTY Reg (2 off) looks to be current loop and RS232 serial Those should be 12531C's, they should have 225.28 KHz crystals, intended for 110 baud operation. Changing the crystal to 307.2 KHz should change it to a 12531D, for the standard baud rate series, if desired. These are the common console-device interface. Some info: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/io12531BCD.html > 12592-6001 +8 but Dup Reg (8 bit parallel for paper tape punch/reader?) yes ... > 12539-60001 Time Base Gen (Heartbeat interrupt ?) yes ... > What is Current Transfer Logic, the machine seems to be full of such ICs? Any data sheets, > etc out there? The 2116,15,14 and 2100 used Fairchild CTuL, along with some TTL. The family name is actually "Complementary Transistor MicroLogic". It's an early (mid-1960s) IC family, similar to ECL in that it is a current-mode / current-switching / non-saturating logic implementation, but involving PNP & NPN transistors in the construction (hence the complementary). When I was first obtained my 2116C ~15 years ago, I was fortunate to already have some Fairchild catalogs that discuss the family. Some info: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/CTL.html However, I was just looking at the Fairchild catalog now on bitsavers which Eric mentioned, and it has more complete info. > I assume there's no chance of me finding a top connector for the memory system. Am I right that the > only difference between the 2 flavours is the spacing of the edge connectors on the PCB? Due to the > fact that the connector plugs into the core plane daughterboard, which is fitted on the component side > of the sense/inhibit board, so the spacing between the edge plugs changes depending on whether the > core is to the left or to the right of the address driver. Both top connectors seem to be just pin-pin > wired on the PCB, but the manuals don't really mention them. I have run across mention of the two connectors and the spacing distinction in some manual but don't recall where off the top of my head. It's one of those 'why did they do it that way' questions: from what I see, if they had just ordered all the board pairs the same rather than putting them in mirror image, they wouldn't have needed two different top connectors. ... > With the configuration I have (assume I can get 32K words of core, and have the I/O cards > I listed) what can I run on it? Aside from blinkenlight programs, in the not-to-distant future there should be a stand-alone version of HP BASIC available. A friend and I are working on assembling it from source. (There are probably old binaries out there somewhere but I haven't obtained one). I believe HP-IPL would run on a machine such as you have, it's a new (2000-era) Forth-based system for the 2100 series, however I have not used it. From lists at loomcom.com Fri Nov 21 00:18:50 2014 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 00:18:50 -0600 Subject: Moving Sale (SF Bay Area, USA) Message-ID: <20141121061850.GA5566@loomcom.com> Well, it's finally happened. I've bought a house west of Seattle, and I'm going to be leaving the bay area. First things first: I am NOT getting out of classic computers! I'm taking a nice little core collection of microcomputers with me. That said, the move is going to be extremely expensive and I have a lot of stuff that I'm just not likely to ever get around to. Liquidating some stuff could save me thousands of dollars. So, it's time to try to pass it on. Everything here is located in Fremont, California, very close to I-880 and Decoto Road. It's in a garage for very easy access. Because of the craziness of moving, I'm very sorry to say that everything here is pick-up only. I cannot make the time to pack and ship. If you're remote and you'd like to get someone else who's local do some picking up for you, of course you're more than welcome. Anyway, I hate to do this, but it's time... First, the non-free stuff. I'd actually like some money for these. How much? I'll take reasonable offers. I'm not looking for eBay money. Seriously. Make an offer, the worst that could possibly happen is that I'll counter. - PDP-11/35. This is my semi-infamous restoration project that consumed much of my 2012. I very lovingly restored the power supply, backplanes, chassis, and front panel. The logic is almost certainly beyond repair. It needs a new set of cards. This system is housed in a full-height rack that has seen much better days. Includes a Diablo Series 30 drive, ECCO paper tape reader (not punch), and a DSD 440 8" floppy drive. I'll throw in a big huge pile of 8" floppies. - PDP-11/53. This is a nice half-height DEC rack with a PDP-11/53 card set in a PDP-11/23+ chassis, plus two working RL-02 drives. Will include 10 RL-02 packs. This is a nice setup. It pains me more to get rid of this than it does the 11/35, if I'm honest. (Drive heads are currently parked and secured!) Now, the cheap and/or free WORKING stuff. Just make a token offer to help defray some moving costs and I'll be thrilled. - MicroVAX 3800. Nice system. Used to belong to Lockheed Martin and once had Hubble Space Telescope pointing control software developer accounts on it! - Two AlphaServer DS20e systems and 4 SCSI storage arrays. Marginally classic, but come on, you know you want them. - TWO MicroVAX 3100 model 80s. Loud little beasts. Lots of small SCSI disks. Ideal doorstops. - AlphaStation 200 4/233. Cute little desktop. Works great! - Sun SPARCClassic. - Sun SPARC IPC. - Assorted Sun keyboards / mice. - SGI Octane. It's a perfectly nice system. No keyboard / mouse. It has texture RAM! - SGI R5000 Indy. Also no keyboard or mouse, sorry. At least these SGI systems are PS/2. - A C-One FPGA system. This is not technically classic, but it is neat. These were sold as a re-targetable FPGA system to emulate Commodore Amiga A500 among other systems. Had a minor following in the early 2000s before the project dried up. - Heathkit H-89. Had to do some minor power supply repair to get it working, but it works great now. Hard-sectored floppy drive. I'll throw in 6 hard sectored floppies. That's all I have! - Tandy TRS-80 Model 4. - Tandy Color Computer 3, still in the box! - No-name serial terminal. It's always good to have more of these, right? - Sharp PC5000 - TWO DEC Rainbows (one has a bad power switch), plus monitors and keyboards. - Panasonic Sr. Partner luggable computer. - Packard Bell 286 - 2 or 3 TI Silent 700 terminals. (I'm keeping a few, but I have an absurd number of these things) - Execuport 4000 printing terminal. - DEC LA100 printing terminal. - 90% working blue ADM-3a terminal. Needs some slight logic repair, should be an easy job. Finally, the stuff that DOES NOT WORK. I just want this gone. Please take it. Any of these could be a fun project. If you don't take it, it will go to WeirdStuff Warehouse where they'll do horrible things. I especially - KayPro 10. - Another MicroVAX 3800. The non-working version of the one above. - DEC Professional 350. Dead video. That's it. If you happen to come over and we're going through stuff and I find something else I should get rid of, you're welcome to it! -Seth From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Nov 21 00:40:13 2014 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 22:40:13 -0800 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <546EDE4D.10205@shiresoft.com> >> With the configuration I have (assume I can get 32K words of core, and have the I/O cards >> I listed) what can I run on it? > > Aside from blinkenlight programs, in the not-to-distant future there should be a stand-alone version of HP BASIC available. A friend and I are working on assembling it from source. (There are probably old binaries out there somewhere but I haven't obtained one). > > I have the binary tape image for HP BASIC somewhere other than in the core of my HP2116. The source is up on bitsavers scanned (and OCR'd) from a listing that I have had since 1971. A bunch of tape images for HP stuff is up on bitsavers (http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection). I also came into a fair number of HP paper tapes but I haven't yet had the time to check them against what's on bitsavers to see if I have anything that isn't already there. TTFN - Guy From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 00:53:17 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 00:53:17 -0600 Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? Message-ID: I've gone off the Deep End and now I just have to re-have a Teletype model 33.. I feel awful about what became of the junker I bought for $15 when I was a 13 year-old and wish I still had it today, so I could fix it and put it to use. So what should a mentally-challenged guy like myself be looking for, in a Model 33 - preferably an ASR model with the paper tape reader? What does and doesn't go bad? Are there any serious game-changing, show-stopping or buzz-killing issues that effectively render one of these units as a parts donor? What differences exist between the various ASR-model units, as they progress through the years? What does one look for - and more importantly, what to avoid? And one more - how do you differentiate a 20mA current-loop model from a 'standard' RS-232 model? Can you tell from the rear panel, or do you need to go under the hood? From useddec at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 00:59:01 2014 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 00:59:01 -0600 Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Where are you located? I have an extra 33 in Illinois. Paul On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:53 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > I've gone off the Deep End and now I just have to re-have a Teletype model > 33.. I feel awful about what became of the junker I bought for $15 when I > was a 13 year-old and wish I still had it today, so I could fix it and put > it to use. > > So what should a mentally-challenged guy like myself be looking for, in a > Model 33 - preferably an ASR model with the paper tape reader? > > What does and doesn't go bad? Are there any serious game-changing, > show-stopping or buzz-killing issues that effectively render one of these > units as a parts donor? What differences exist between the various > ASR-model units, as they progress through the years? What does one look for > - and more importantly, what to avoid? > > And one more - how do you differentiate a 20mA current-loop model from a > 'standard' RS-232 model? Can you tell from the rear panel, or do you need > to go under the hood? > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 21 01:06:32 2014 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 23:06:32 -0800 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <546EE478.2060101@sbcglobal.net> On 11/19/2014 1:43 PM, tony duell wrote: > I assume there's no chance of me finding a top connector for the memory system. Am I right that the > only difference between the 2 flavours is the spacing of the edge connectors on the PCB? Due to the > fact that the connector plugs into the core plane daughterboard, which is fitted on the component side > of the sense/inhibit board, so the spacing between the edge plugs changes depending on whether the > core is to the left or to the right of the address driver. Both top connectors seem to be just pin-pin > wired on the PCB, but the manuals don't really mention them. There's a chance I can come up with a connector, but won't be able to look until the beginning of December. I'll look and see what I have. I was given a box of them that were removed from 2116c's (same core as the 2100). > > One major problem concerns the power switch. I don't have the key, and it's currently in the > 'panel lock' position. Now, I can trivially jumper the switch to enable the panel but I would > rather not. I have eleven 2100's and they all use the same key. Doesn't mean that all 2100's do, but mine did. I can send you a key if you want. Bob From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 21 01:10:19 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 23:10:19 -0800 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: <546EDE4D.10205@shiresoft.com> References: <546EDE4D.10205@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 2014-Nov-20, at 10:40 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> With the configuration I have (assume I can get 32K words of core, and have the I/O cards >>> I listed) what can I run on it? >> >> Aside from blinkenlight programs, in the not-to-distant future there should be a stand-alone version of HP BASIC available. A friend and I are working on assembling it from source. (There are probably old binaries out there somewhere but I haven't obtained one). >> > I have the binary tape image for HP BASIC somewhere other than in the core of my HP2116. The source is up on bitsavers scanned (and OCR'd) from a listing that I have had since 1971. Indeed, that's the source we're working from (we spoke of this on the list a few weeks ago). I've actually extracted (an almost complete) machine code / binary image from the assembly output listings you provided on bitsavers, but it's more interesting to fulfil a complete assembly from the source, so we're waiting for that before trying to load & run. > A bunch of tape images for HP stuff is up on bitsavers (http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection). I also came into a fair number of HP paper tapes but I haven't yet had the time to check them against what's on bitsavers to see if I have anything that isn't already there. .. always be interested to hear if there's more period 2116 software, although I'm a little limited as my 2116 currently has only 8KW memory. From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 01:15:57 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 01:15:57 -0600 Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Reply sent off-list. On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:59 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Where are you located? I have an extra 33 in Illinois. > > Paul > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:53 AM, drlegendre . > wrote: > > > I've gone off the Deep End and now I just have to re-have a Teletype > model > > 33.. I feel awful about what became of the junker I bought for $15 when I > > was a 13 year-old and wish I still had it today, so I could fix it and > put > > it to use. > > > > So what should a mentally-challenged guy like myself be looking for, in a > > Model 33 - preferably an ASR model with the paper tape reader? > > > > What does and doesn't go bad? Are there any serious game-changing, > > show-stopping or buzz-killing issues that effectively render one of these > > units as a parts donor? What differences exist between the various > > ASR-model units, as they progress through the years? What does one look > for > > - and more importantly, what to avoid? > > > > And one more - how do you differentiate a 20mA current-loop model from a > > 'standard' RS-232 model? Can you tell from the rear panel, or do you need > > to go under the hood? > > > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 15:34:13 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 16:34:13 -0500 Subject: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage conditions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good deal. I guess I'm just gonna go for it after a cursory inspection and dusting. It has stayed utterly dry; just the temp and dust were concerns. I'll report back in a while.. Thanks! On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > At the very least, take a good long look at the power supply and its caps. > > Has the storage, as bad as it's been, been dry? If not, you'll almost > certainly have corrosion all over the place, especially in the fastons ISTR > run power to the backplane. (I haven't looked at my own 11/73 in a few > years, but it's in a dry, temperature-stable basement.) > > Best of luck! - Ian > On Nov 20, 2014 12:32 PM, "Jacob Ritorto" wrote: > > > Hey all, > > I've been getting the bug worse and worse to start working on a real > > pdp11. The Raspberry Pi / simh emulation is fantastic, but my hunger for > > authenticity is becoming rampant. I haven't run the youngest in my fleet > > of pdp11s, the 11/73, since circa 2002 and if I recall correctly, it was > > becoming flaky and popping out to ODT inexplicably from time to time back > > then (I think this is the one with the notoriously combustible power > supply > > wires that probably haven't been ECO'd yet -- need to get to that too). > > It's been lying in a warehouse in western Pennsylvania with no heat and a > > lot of dust. So, worst case, we're talking temperature transients around > > 110 F and -20 F with no protection. It did stay quite dry. > > > > Think it'd be bad to simply blow the dust off and fire it up? > > > > thx > > jake > > > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 16:11:52 2014 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:11:52 +1300 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> Message-ID: I'd have the same interest a lot of people might have: anything BIG with lots of lights and switches on the front that says 'DEC' or 'DIGITAL' or 'IBM'. :-) If you can pick it up without a forklift I'm probably not interested. Mike On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 8:36 AM, Electronics Plus wrote: > Mainframes and other stuff > > > > Recycle center in NC is willing to save out "stuff" for people. > > No, no one can go in the back and scrounge. > > No, he does not want a lot of emails from people. > > Yes, he gets big blue and orange and beige 6 foot tall OLD mainframes in > all > the time. They squash them at the moment. > > Yes, he will package small orders, and will properly palletize larger > orders. > > Local pick up will be available after the new year. > > > > So, if u can send me a picture with description and some part numbers, > along > with what you want to pay, I will consolidate things and make arrangements. > > Please don't ask for specific boards from DEC; they don't want to go into > that much detail. > > QBUS will mean nothing to him. > > Big orange cabinet that says xxxxx is much more likely to get saved. > > > > They are moving to new warehouse 1st of the month, so all this will start > happening after the 1st of the year. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-792-3400 phone > > 830-792-3404 fax > > sales at elecplus.com > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From js at cimmeri.com Thu Nov 20 17:26:28 2014 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 18:26:28 -0500 Subject: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage conditions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <546E78A4.6050202@cimmeri.com> Perfect example of only listening to what one wants to hear. On 11/20/2014 4:34 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Good deal. I guess I'm just gonna go for it after a cursory inspection and > dusting. It has stayed utterly dry; just the temp and dust were concerns. > I'll report back in a while.. Thanks! > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > >> At the very least, take a good long look at the power supply and its caps. >> >> Has the storage, as bad as it's been, been dry? If not, you'll almost >> certainly have corrosion all over the place, especially in the fastons ISTR >> run power to the backplane. (I haven't looked at my own 11/73 in a few >> years, but it's in a dry, temperature-stable basement.) >> >> Best of luck! - Ian >> On Nov 20, 2014 12:32 PM, "Jacob Ritorto" wrote: >> >>> Hey all, >>> I've been getting the bug worse and worse to start working on a real >>> pdp11. The Raspberry Pi / simh emulation is fantastic, but my hunger for >>> authenticity is becoming rampant. I haven't run the youngest in my fleet >>> of pdp11s, the 11/73, since circa 2002 and if I recall correctly, it was >>> becoming flaky and popping out to ODT inexplicably from time to time back >>> then (I think this is the one with the notoriously combustible power >> supply >>> wires that probably haven't been ECO'd yet -- need to get to that too). >>> It's been lying in a warehouse in western Pennsylvania with no heat and a >>> lot of dust. So, worst case, we're talking temperature transients around >>> 110 F and -20 F with no protection. It did stay quite dry. >>> >>> Think it'd be bad to simply blow the dust off and fire it up? >>> >>> thx >>> jake >>> > From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Nov 20 17:30:59 2014 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 23:30:59 +0000 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> Message-ID: Folks, good and interesting answers all (not all quoted), but I?ll just guess that when Cindy said ?along with what you want to pay? she was looking for something relatively quantitative. I?ll also guess a request accompanied by an estimate or range would go to the top of the list. - Mark On Nov 20, 2014, at 4:11 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > I'd have the same interest a lot of people might have: anything BIG with > lots of lights and switches on the front that says 'DEC' or 'DIGITAL' or > 'IBM'. :-) > ?. From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 19:09:28 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 20:09:28 -0500 Subject: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage conditions In-Reply-To: <20141120213812.77E0E18C124@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141120213812.77E0E18C124@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: OK, decided to let the machine acclimate from 25 F to inside-house temps overnight. The thing's still all together - RD54, TK50 with a tape in it (!), Ethernet, DZ interfaces and TK25 interface plugs on rear. Guess I'll be conservative, empty out the backplane and do the careful powerup first. So where would I put the resistors? I still have my wirewrap tool somewhere around here. Could try to figure out what pin is the 5v rail and tie in a resistor on there, I guess. But I'd rather not tear the thing apart *quite* so much if I could avoid it. Is there a way to check ripple w/o a scope? (don't have one) thx jake On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > Roe Peterson roeapeterson at gmail.com > > > I would remove all the boards, blow it out, insert the minimum board > > set, (CPU, memory, DL console, maybe bus terminator depending on > > backplane) and just turn it on. > > That long in storage, I think that I'd probably go for powering it on with > a > dummy load first. It's not _that_ much more work, and it could save some > expensive/rare electronics. > > It you don't have any QBUS Minimum Load Modules, get a couple of > high-wattage > resistors (down at Radio Slack, if necessary) and rig the equivalent. The > M7556 MLM draws 1A of +5V, and I like to run two for testing. RS sells > 10-Ohm/10-W resistors (ISTR they had smaller ones too, but I needed to > test a > 12V supply, hence the 10-W), so buy four... > > Probably a good idea to throw a 'scope on the DC power, too, check for > ripple, etc. > > Noel > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 23:46:22 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 00:46:22 -0500 Subject: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage conditions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, things inside were clean and pretty minimally configured, so, with all apologies, I jumped the gun and applied power, but I'm afraid the old girl just didn't survive the twelve years of temperature transients. The illuminated ba23 power rocker switch lights up, but that's absolutely it. No fans, no familiar power supply squeal, no drive spinup, nothing on the seven-segment CPU state display on the rear. Seems thoroughly dead. I guess I need to start tearing it down and debugging the power supply as I recall that it was at least doing more than this before the years of bad storage. So I need to find power supply diagrams and start tracing things out, right? Any ideas as to where to begin? On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Good deal. I guess I'm just gonna go for it after a cursory inspection > and dusting. It has stayed utterly dry; just the temp and dust were > concerns. I'll report back in a while.. Thanks! > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > >> At the very least, take a good long look at the power supply and its caps. >> >> Has the storage, as bad as it's been, been dry? If not, you'll almost >> certainly have corrosion all over the place, especially in the fastons >> ISTR >> run power to the backplane. (I haven't looked at my own 11/73 in a few >> years, but it's in a dry, temperature-stable basement.) >> >> Best of luck! - Ian >> On Nov 20, 2014 12:32 PM, "Jacob Ritorto" >> wrote: >> >> > Hey all, >> > I've been getting the bug worse and worse to start working on a real >> > pdp11. The Raspberry Pi / simh emulation is fantastic, but my hunger >> for >> > authenticity is becoming rampant. I haven't run the youngest in my >> fleet >> > of pdp11s, the 11/73, since circa 2002 and if I recall correctly, it was >> > becoming flaky and popping out to ODT inexplicably from time to time >> back >> > then (I think this is the one with the notoriously combustible power >> supply >> > wires that probably haven't been ECO'd yet -- need to get to that too). >> > It's been lying in a warehouse in western Pennsylvania with no heat and >> a >> > lot of dust. So, worst case, we're talking temperature transients >> around >> > 110 F and -20 F with no protection. It did stay quite dry. >> > >> > Think it'd be bad to simply blow the dust off and fire it up? >> > >> > thx >> > jake >> > >> > > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 00:53:32 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 01:53:32 -0500 Subject: Moving Sale (SF Bay Area, USA) In-Reply-To: <20141121061850.GA5566@loomcom.com> References: <20141121061850.GA5566@loomcom.com> Message-ID: Hey Seth! I'd like to call dibs on the blue adm3a! Will send a friend over from HMB to pick it up at your convenience. Will you reply pirvately & let me know when's best and what's a proper tip, pls? thx jake (fourfifteen)952-5372 On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 1:18 AM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > Well, it's finally happened. I've bought a house west of Seattle, and > I'm going to be leaving the bay area. > > First things first: I am NOT getting out of classic computers! I'm > taking a nice little core collection of microcomputers with me. That > said, the move is going to be extremely expensive and I have a lot of > stuff that I'm just not likely to ever get around to. Liquidating > some stuff could save me thousands of dollars. So, it's time to try to > pass it on. > > Everything here is located in Fremont, California, very close to I-880 > and Decoto Road. It's in a garage for very easy access. Because of the > craziness of moving, I'm very sorry to say that everything here is > pick-up only. I cannot make the time to pack and ship. If you're remote > and you'd like to get someone else who's local do some picking up for > you, of course you're more than welcome. > > Anyway, I hate to do this, but it's time... > > > > First, the non-free stuff. I'd actually like some money for these. How > much? I'll take reasonable offers. I'm not looking for eBay money. > Seriously. Make an offer, the worst that could possibly happen is that > I'll counter. > > - PDP-11/35. This is my semi-infamous restoration project that > consumed much of my 2012. I very lovingly restored the power supply, > backplanes, chassis, and front panel. The logic is almost certainly > beyond repair. It needs a new set of cards. This system is housed in > a full-height rack that has seen much better days. Includes a Diablo > Series 30 drive, ECCO paper tape reader (not punch), and a DSD 440 > 8" floppy drive. I'll throw in a big huge pile of 8" floppies. > > - PDP-11/53. This is a nice half-height DEC rack with a PDP-11/53 card > set in a PDP-11/23+ chassis, plus two working RL-02 drives. Will > include 10 RL-02 packs. This is a nice setup. It pains me more to > get rid of this than it does the 11/35, if I'm honest. (Drive heads > are currently parked and secured!) > > > > > Now, the cheap and/or free WORKING stuff. Just make a token offer to > help defray some moving costs and I'll be thrilled. > > - MicroVAX 3800. Nice system. Used to belong to Lockheed Martin and > once had Hubble Space Telescope pointing control software developer > accounts on it! > > - Two AlphaServer DS20e systems and 4 SCSI storage arrays. Marginally > classic, but come on, you know you want them. > > - TWO MicroVAX 3100 model 80s. Loud little beasts. Lots of small > SCSI disks. Ideal doorstops. > > - AlphaStation 200 4/233. Cute little desktop. Works great! > > - Sun SPARCClassic. > > - Sun SPARC IPC. > > - Assorted Sun keyboards / mice. > > - SGI Octane. It's a perfectly nice system. No keyboard / mouse. It > has texture RAM! > > - SGI R5000 Indy. Also no keyboard or mouse, sorry. At least these SGI > systems are PS/2. > > - A C-One FPGA system. This is not technically classic, but it is > neat. These were sold as a re-targetable FPGA system to emulate > Commodore Amiga A500 among other systems. Had a minor following in > the early 2000s before the project dried up. > > - Heathkit H-89. Had to do some minor power supply repair to get it > working, but it works great now. Hard-sectored floppy drive. I'll > throw in 6 hard sectored floppies. That's all I have! > > - Tandy TRS-80 Model 4. > > - Tandy Color Computer 3, still in the box! > > - No-name serial terminal. It's always good to have more of these, > right? > > - Sharp PC5000 > > - TWO DEC Rainbows (one has a bad power switch), plus monitors and > keyboards. > > - Panasonic Sr. Partner luggable computer. > > - Packard Bell 286 > > - 2 or 3 TI Silent 700 terminals. (I'm keeping a few, but I have an > absurd number of these things) > > - Execuport 4000 printing terminal. > > - DEC LA100 printing terminal. > > - 90% working blue ADM-3a terminal. Needs some slight logic repair, > should be an easy job. > > > > > Finally, the stuff that DOES NOT WORK. I just want this gone. Please > take it. Any of these could be a fun project. If you don't take it, it > will go to WeirdStuff Warehouse where they'll do horrible things. > I especially > > - KayPro 10. > > - Another MicroVAX 3800. The non-working version of the one above. > > - DEC Professional 350. Dead video. > > > > That's it. If you happen to come over and we're going through stuff > and I find something else I should get rid of, you're welcome to it! > > -Seth > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 21 01:24:18 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 23:24:18 -0800 Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54F3D199-E608-4049-9CD5-EB408DABD3AD@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Nov-20, at 10:53 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > I've gone off the Deep End and now I just have to re-have a Teletype model > 33.. ... > And one more - how do you differentiate a 20mA current-loop model from a > 'standard' RS-232 model? Can you tell from the rear panel, or do you need > to go under the hood? Model 33's are native/standard 20mA current-loop. I've never seen a manufacturer-original built-in RS-232 adapter for them, at least not inside the 33 proper (the keyboard-printer unit). The stand / base however, was optionally used to house a rather large modem, I suppose there could have been other adapters made to go in there. From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Nov 21 01:25:28 2014 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 23:25:28 -0800 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: References: <546EDE4D.10205@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <546EE8E8.6000604@shiresoft.com> On 11/20/14 11:10 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2014-Nov-20, at 10:40 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>> With the configuration I have (assume I can get 32K words of core, and have the I/O cards >>>> I listed) what can I run on it? >>> Aside from blinkenlight programs, in the not-to-distant future there should be a stand-alone version of HP BASIC available. A friend and I are working on assembling it from source. (There are probably old binaries out there somewhere but I haven't obtained one). >>> >> I have the binary tape image for HP BASIC somewhere other than in the core of my HP2116. The source is up on bitsavers scanned (and OCR'd) from a listing that I have had since 1971. > Indeed, that's the source we're working from (we spoke of this on the list a few weeks ago). > > I've actually extracted (an almost complete) machine code / binary image from the assembly output listings you provided on bitsavers, but it's more interesting to fulfil a complete assembly from the source, so we're waiting for that before trying to load & run. I have a cross assembler for the 21xx written in 'C' (I didn't write it) but I don't recall where I got it from. :-( It produces an absolute binary image that is suitable for loading using the binary loader. There should be the BASIC tape images on bitsavers. > >> A bunch of tape images for HP stuff is up on bitsavers (http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection). I also came into a fair number of HP paper tapes but I haven't yet had the time to check them against what's on bitsavers to see if I have anything that isn't already there. > .. always be interested to hear if there's more period 2116 software, although I'm a little limited as my 2116 currently has only 8KW memory. TTFN - Guy From alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net Fri Nov 21 01:29:23 2014 From: alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net (Alex McWhirter) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 02:29:23 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> Message-ID: <5A426BEE-F9D0-4C7A-AC92-2EE2D017110D@mojovapes.net> Good point, i?ve added estimates to these items Sun Fire T1000 - $25 Sun Fire T2000 - $50 Sun Enterprise 10000 -$400 Sun Fire E25K - $500 Sun Fire V490 - $100 Sun Fire V890 - $200 Sun Fire V1280 - $300 Sun Fire V245 - $50 Sun Fire V215 - $25 > On Nov 20, 2014, at 6:30 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > > Folks, > good and interesting answers all (not all quoted), but I?ll just guess that when Cindy said ?along with what you want to pay? she was looking for something relatively quantitative. I?ll also guess a request accompanied by an estimate or range would go to the top of the list. > - Mark > > On Nov 20, 2014, at 4:11 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > >> I'd have the same interest a lot of people might have: anything BIG with >> lots of lights and switches on the front that says 'DEC' or 'DIGITAL' or >> 'IBM'. :-) >> ?. > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Nov 21 01:41:30 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 07:41:30 -0000 Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001c01d0055e$909457d0$b1bd0770$@ntlworld.com> I suggest you subscribe to the Greenkeys list. I don't know too much but a couple of things to know are: 1. The rubber hammer perishes. Do *not* operate the machine without replacing it or you will cause irreversible damage to the typewheel. There are two ways to do this. One is to use some PVC tubing, the other is to ask on the Greenkeys list as someone has now manufactured some completely new rubber hammers. 2. Make sure you grease and lubricate it before turning it on. Turn it over by hand first. The manuals are available to tell you where to lubricate etc. I can supply copies if necessary. 3. You will almost certainly need a current loop converter. I was lucky to find one on eBay which works like a charm, I think there are others. The alternative is to make your own. There are some designs knocking around that don't seem too complicated. There are probably lots of other things, checking for excessive wear for example. I love my Model 33, hearing that sound again is wonderful, it is definitely something worth getting and looking after! Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of drlegendre . > Sent: 21 November 2014 06:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? > > I've gone off the Deep End and now I just have to re-have a Teletype model 33.. > I feel awful about what became of the junker I bought for $15 when I was a 13 > year-old and wish I still had it today, so I could fix it and put it to use. > > So what should a mentally-challenged guy like myself be looking for, in a Model > 33 - preferably an ASR model with the paper tape reader? > > What does and doesn't go bad? Are there any serious game-changing, show- > stopping or buzz-killing issues that effectively render one of these units as a > parts donor? What differences exist between the various ASR-model units, as > they progress through the years? What does one look for > - and more importantly, what to avoid? > > And one more - how do you differentiate a 20mA current-loop model from a > 'standard' RS-232 model? Can you tell from the rear panel, or do you need to > go under the hood? From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 02:05:14 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 02:05:14 -0600 Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: <001c01d0055e$909457d0$b1bd0770$@ntlworld.com> References: <001c01d0055e$909457d0$b1bd0770$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: @Robert If you - or anyone - have links to digital copies of the Mdl. 33 service / operator's manuals, please send those my way - would be very much appreciated! I presume the rubber hammer isn't so much a /rubber hammer/ as a steel hammer with a bonded rubber face? Sort of like a pinch roller or drive wheel from a tape machine or turntable, and so on. Lacking the rubber facing, I could see how that would damage the 'typewheel' as you say, in short order. Per your suggestion, the greenkeys list will be one of my next stops. Thank you for the help!! ;-) On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 1:41 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I suggest you subscribe to the Greenkeys list. I don't know too much but a > couple of things to know are: > > 1. The rubber hammer perishes. Do *not* operate the machine without > replacing it or you will cause irreversible damage to the typewheel. There > are two ways to do this. One is to use some PVC tubing, the other is to ask > on the Greenkeys list as someone has now manufactured some completely new > rubber hammers. > 2. Make sure you grease and lubricate it before turning it on. Turn it > over by hand first. The manuals are available to tell you where to > lubricate etc. I can supply copies if necessary. > 3. You will almost certainly need a current loop converter. I was lucky to > find one on eBay which works like a charm, I think there are others. The > alternative is to make your own. There are some designs knocking around > that don't seem too complicated. > > There are probably lots of other things, checking for excessive wear for > example. > > I love my Model 33, hearing that sound again is wonderful, it is > definitely something worth getting and looking after! > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > drlegendre . > > Sent: 21 November 2014 06:53 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's > guide? > > > > I've gone off the Deep End and now I just have to re-have a Teletype > model 33.. > > I feel awful about what became of the junker I bought for $15 when I was > a 13 > > year-old and wish I still had it today, so I could fix it and put it to > use. > > > > So what should a mentally-challenged guy like myself be looking for, in > a Model > > 33 - preferably an ASR model with the paper tape reader? > > > > What does and doesn't go bad? Are there any serious game-changing, show- > > stopping or buzz-killing issues that effectively render one of these > units as a > > parts donor? What differences exist between the various ASR-model units, > as > > they progress through the years? What does one look for > > - and more importantly, what to avoid? > > > > And one more - how do you differentiate a 20mA current-loop model from a > > 'standard' RS-232 model? Can you tell from the rear panel, or do you > need to > > go under the hood? > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Nov 21 02:34:15 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 08:34:15 -0000 Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: References: <001c01d0055e$909457d0$b1bd0770$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <002001d00565$ef180930$cd481b90$@ntlworld.com> Yes, the hammer is actually a piece of metal, with a rubber "cup" over it, that often gets called the hammer. You can remove the rubber part and put some rigid-ish vinyl tubing over it, but as I have the newly made ones I have not done this. I will send you the manuals separately. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of drlegendre . > Sent: 21 November 2014 08:05 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? > > @Robert > > If you - or anyone - have links to digital copies of the Mdl. 33 service / > operator's manuals, please send those my way - would be very much > appreciated! > > I presume the rubber hammer isn't so much a /rubber hammer/ as a steel > hammer with a bonded rubber face? Sort of like a pinch roller or drive wheel > from a tape machine or turntable, and so on. Lacking the rubber facing, I could > see how that would damage the 'typewheel' as you say, in short order. > > Per your suggestion, the greenkeys list will be one of my next stops. Thank you > for the help!! ;-) > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 1:41 AM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > > I suggest you subscribe to the Greenkeys list. I don't know too much > > but a couple of things to know are: > > > > 1. The rubber hammer perishes. Do *not* operate the machine without > > replacing it or you will cause irreversible damage to the typewheel. > > There are two ways to do this. One is to use some PVC tubing, the > > other is to ask on the Greenkeys list as someone has now manufactured > > some completely new rubber hammers. > > 2. Make sure you grease and lubricate it before turning it on. Turn it > > over by hand first. The manuals are available to tell you where to > > lubricate etc. I can supply copies if necessary. > > 3. You will almost certainly need a current loop converter. I was > > lucky to find one on eBay which works like a charm, I think there are > > others. The alternative is to make your own. There are some designs > > knocking around that don't seem too complicated. > > > > There are probably lots of other things, checking for excessive wear > > for example. > > > > I love my Model 33, hearing that sound again is wonderful, it is > > definitely something worth getting and looking after! > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > drlegendre . > > > Sent: 21 November 2014 06:53 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's > > guide? > > > > > > I've gone off the Deep End and now I just have to re-have a Teletype > > model 33.. > > > I feel awful about what became of the junker I bought for $15 when I > > > was > > a 13 > > > year-old and wish I still had it today, so I could fix it and put it > > > to > > use. > > > > > > So what should a mentally-challenged guy like myself be looking for, > > > in > > a Model > > > 33 - preferably an ASR model with the paper tape reader? > > > > > > What does and doesn't go bad? Are there any serious game-changing, > > > show- stopping or buzz-killing issues that effectively render one of > > > these > > units as a > > > parts donor? What differences exist between the various ASR-model > > > units, > > as > > > they progress through the years? What does one look for > > > - and more importantly, what to avoid? > > > > > > And one more - how do you differentiate a 20mA current-loop model > > > from a 'standard' RS-232 model? Can you tell from the rear panel, or > > > do you > > need to > > > go under the hood? > > > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 03:18:36 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 03:18:36 -0600 Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: <002001d00565$ef180930$cd481b90$@ntlworld.com> References: <001c01d0055e$909457d0$b1bd0770$@ntlworld.com> <002001d00565$ef180930$cd481b90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Robert, On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 2:34 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Yes, the hammer is actually a piece of metal, with a rubber "cup" over it, > that often gets called the hammer. You can remove the rubber part and put > some rigid-ish vinyl tubing over it, but as I have the newly made ones I > have not done this. > > I will send you the manuals separately. Thanks much, I'll keep a look-out for them! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Nov 21 01:33:23 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 07:33:23 -0000 Subject: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage conditions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001b01d0055d$6ea66380$4bf32a80$@ntlworld.com> There is no printset that I am aware of the for the H7864 PSU. I have a dead one of these too, I do know which component failed but I don't know *why* it failed. As part of that diagnosis I have made a partial schematic of a couple of parts of the boards. The schematic for the Primary Control Module is here: http://1drv.ms/1yBzYTN (png) or here: http://1drv.ms/1xFXUnR (Eagle schematic). I may not have drawn it logically, and may have some bits wrong, as it is quite difficult to derive the schematic and it is easy to make mistakes. I don?t know how to identify zener diodes, so all diodes are drawn as ordinary ones. I was also unable to draw the transformers correctly as I don't know their spec and pinout. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jacob > Ritorto > Sent: 21 November 2014 05:46 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage > conditions > > Well, things inside were clean and pretty minimally configured, so, with all > apologies, I jumped the gun and applied power, but I'm afraid the old girl just > didn't survive the twelve years of temperature transients. > > The illuminated ba23 power rocker switch lights up, but that's absolutely it. > No fans, no familiar power supply squeal, no drive spinup, nothing on the > seven-segment CPU state display on the rear. Seems thoroughly dead. > > I guess I need to start tearing it down and debugging the power supply as I > recall that it was at least doing more than this before the years of bad storage. > > So I need to find power supply diagrams and start tracing things out, right? > Any ideas as to where to begin? > > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Jacob Ritorto > wrote: > > > Good deal. I guess I'm just gonna go for it after a cursory > > inspection and dusting. It has stayed utterly dry; just the temp and > > dust were concerns. I'll report back in a while.. Thanks! > > > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > > > >> At the very least, take a good long look at the power supply and its caps. > >> > >> Has the storage, as bad as it's been, been dry? If not, you'll > >> almost certainly have corrosion all over the place, especially in the > >> fastons ISTR run power to the backplane. (I haven't looked at my own > >> 11/73 in a few years, but it's in a dry, temperature-stable > >> basement.) > >> > >> Best of luck! - Ian > >> On Nov 20, 2014 12:32 PM, "Jacob Ritorto" > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Hey all, > >> > I've been getting the bug worse and worse to start working on a > >> > real pdp11. The Raspberry Pi / simh emulation is fantastic, but my > >> > hunger > >> for > >> > authenticity is becoming rampant. I haven't run the youngest in my > >> fleet > >> > of pdp11s, the 11/73, since circa 2002 and if I recall correctly, > >> > it was becoming flaky and popping out to ODT inexplicably from time > >> > to time > >> back > >> > then (I think this is the one with the notoriously combustible > >> > power > >> supply > >> > wires that probably haven't been ECO'd yet -- need to get to that too). > >> > It's been lying in a warehouse in western Pennsylvania with no heat > >> > and > >> a > >> > lot of dust. So, worst case, we're talking temperature transients > >> around > >> > 110 F and -20 F with no protection. It did stay quite dry. > >> > > >> > Think it'd be bad to simply blow the dust off and fire it up? > >> > > >> > thx > >> > jake > >> > > >> > > > > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Nov 21 02:46:08 2014 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 08:46:08 +0000 Subject: The Whetstone Benchmark Message-ID: This is an interesting read about the history of the Whetstone benchmark and a good summary of vintage performance: http://www.roylongbottom.org.uk/whetstone.htm Mark. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 21 04:25:07 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 02:25:07 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> Message-ID: <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> On 11/20/2014 11:36 AM, Electronics Plus wrote: > Mainframes and other stuff > > > > Recycle center in NC is willing to save out "stuff" for people. > > No, no one can go in the back and scrounge. > > No, he does not want a lot of emails from people. > > Yes, he gets big blue and orange and beige 6 foot tall OLD mainframes in all > the time. They squash them at the moment. Specifically for the IBM / Amdahl etc. Blue, Red, Orange cabinets 3180 6' box 500# $300 3380 6' box disk drive 600# $300 3370 disk drives, need A and B units $200 (also 3375 if the storage 3180 box comes with it) 4321, 31, 41, 61, these are "deep freeze shaped" $500- $1000 4381 6' box, 900# $1000 370 anything hold out before touching. will catch a jet to look at it if it is processor 360 anything if any exists that isn't known by the community, of course. I don't think any is hiding that someone doesn't know about. Again, probably someone would fly out to access and make a deal. Cables. Channel cables especially blue ones are getting rare, and all the above needs them They have the 2 x 6 x 4" channel connectors. The blue ones have more wires and will work on older equipment that doesn't need all the wires. The older cables may not do that. $30-40 3420 600# $300 (tape drive) 3803 800# $300 (tape controller) (both needed) 3278 (terminals) 3179 (color terminal) (only coax, twinax not so much) I am sure the above would be shelled out by any mainframe collector, just naming names for the guy to list out. I've personally bought at this price range. Basically will pay double metal value. There is some gold in the processors that may now bump the price there, that is just what I got it for originally. I don't have any idea about Amdahl numbers. They used the same storage chains as IBM with their colors, as did Hitachi. I'm sure there are none, but an RCA Spectra 70 or anything 80's and later big iron Univac would also have IBM storage, and all would be interesting, i'm sure. For the air cooled (43xx) mainframes, they have special consoles and control cables, it is critical to collect that when the boxes are delivered. It is like the current shows with airplane repossessions, Get the airplane with logs $ dollars for the deal. Recover it w/o logs, half the value to even less. The 360's and 370's had some requirements too, but it would be sad if the power and control gizmos for the mainframes were lost. > Yes, he will package small orders, and will properly palletize larger > orders. > > Local pick up will be available after the new year. > > > > So, if u can send me a picture with description and some part numbers, along > with what you want to pay, I will consolidate things and make arrangements. > > Please don't ask for specific boards from DEC; they don't want to go into > that much detail. > > QBUS will mean nothing to him. > > Big orange cabinet that says xxxxx is much more likely to get saved. > > > > They are moving to new warehouse 1st of the month, so all this will start > happening after the 1st of the year. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-792-3400 phone > > 830-792-3404 fax > > sales at elecplus.com > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Nov 21 05:10:07 2014 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 05:10:07 -0600 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 02:25:07AM -0800, jwsmobile wrote: > I'm sure there are none, but an RCA Spectra 70 Oh wow. You've woken up some long-sleeping neurons. I'm sure that all of these long ago got recycled, but I'd buy a front panel. Also: any piece of a Bendix G-15, or anything Control Data, let me know. (It goes without saying: a PDP-11/20.) mcl From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 21 06:52:56 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 07:52:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage conditions Message-ID: <20141121125256.1A5C218C14D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Robert Jarratt > There is no printset that I am aware of the for the H7864 PSU. Really? Wow. With all the machines that used BA23 boxes (both -11s and uVAXen), you'd think that the printset for _one_ of them would have included the H7864. That was common DEC practise; the print-set for the 11/xx system as a whole usually included the prints for the 'standard' power supply for that machine. (That's how we have the prints for the H786 BA-11N power supply - as part of the prints for the 11/23 - someone kindly pointed that out to me.) So I'd check out all the machines that came in a BA23, and look for the print sets for them, and see if any has the H7864 included. (If anyone finds them, do let us know if you succeed - I have a feeling I'll be needing them before too long! :-) Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 21 08:27:05 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 08:27:05 -0600 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000301d00597$3a230ac0$ae692040$@classiccmp.org> Tony wrote... Anyway, I came across my HP2100A minicomputer, so I took a long look at it (seriously, I must have spent a couple of hours pulling boards, etc). Some day I would like to get it running again. Congrats, the 2100 is a wonderful machine. IMHO, the easiest/quickest/MostFunctional front panel ever on any computer. The "light being the pushbutton" allows for really quick entry/changes and strong visual cues. I find I can enter front panel code quicker on that panel than any other. I assume there's no chance of me finding a top connector for the memory system. Am I right that the only difference between the 2 flavours is the spacing of the edge connectors on the PCB? Due to the fact that the connector plugs into the core plane daughterboard, which is fitted on the component side of the sense/inhibit board, so the spacing between the edge plugs changes depending on whether the core is to the left or to the right of the address driver. Both top connectors seem to be just pin-pin wired on the PCB, but the manuals don't really mention them. You may well be able to procure one. I have a source that may have one available for sale, email me off-list for particulars. If that fails, there is somewhat of a chance I may have a spare. There is a tab on my A2 board telling me I have the floating point microcode and indeed the 6 ROMs are fitted (in sockets) near the standard microcode ROMs. Was there ever a published source listing of this? It would be interesting... I believe the microcode listings are around. Can't put my fingers on it at the moment. One major problem concerns the power switch. I don't have the key, and it's currently in the 'panel lock' position. Now, I can trivially jumper the switch to enable the panel but I would rather not. I probably have a spare key... but at the least, I'm sure I could loan you a key so you can have a copy made. Were all 2100A's keyed alike (like all DEC machines were)? If so, does anyone have the key cutting data? I am not positive, but I believe they were all keyed alike. With the configuration I have (assume I can get 32K words of core, and have the I/O cards I listed) what can I run on it? The standard diagnostics library (the one that uses the diagnostic configurator, not the standalone diags) is kinda sorta an operating system in and of itself. Fun to play with. I can strongly recommend HP-IPL/OS. It will run on even less hardware than what you have, yet fully supports maximum hardware configurations. It is pretty much "Forth", and very very well designed. You can pretty much do anything with that. Best, J From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 21 08:34:24 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 08:34:24 -0600 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: <546EE8E8.6000604@shiresoft.com> References: <546EDE4D.10205@shiresoft.com> <546EE8E8.6000604@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <000f01d00598$53f11220$fbd33660$@classiccmp.org> Guy wrote.... I have a cross assembler for the 21xx written in 'C' (I didn't write it) but I don't recall where I got it from. :-( It produces an absolute binary image that is suitable for loading using the binary loader. I would be very, very interested in obtaining a copy of that cross assembler. Extremely so if it can produce relocatable object. But if not, I'd gladly take it and extend it for same. Best, J From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Fri Nov 21 08:45:46 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 08:45:46 -0600 Subject: IBM 9406-270 Install Media / Drive Recommendations? Message-ID: <20141121144546.GA12082@RawFedDogs.net> Classic Computer Enthusiasts, I took a chance on an IBM 9406-270: http://www.eBay.com/itm/291300259440 I probably paid way too much for it, especially without drives. The fact that it was small enough to not require freight shipping appealed to me. Plus that fact will make it easier to deal with once it arrives. I realize when all is said and done I may end up with an overpriced doorstop. Does anyone have suitable OS/400 install media for this box I could borrow or get a copy of? I know I need AS/400 specific drives for this box. Does anyone have recommendations on the minimum number and size of drives I'd need to perform an OS install? I know without license keys the most I can hope for is a base OS install that would have to be restored or reinstalled every couple of months. I'll also need a twinax terminal for a console, and probably a multi-port twinax connector block since one wasn't listed in the eBay listing with the box itself. Is there anything else I might need to get started? -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 08:54:01 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 09:54:01 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> Message-ID: Hmmm.... >From the offers I am seeing here - the scrapper is just going to laugh, then ignore further offers. Game over. -- Will From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 21 09:11:29 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 09:11:29 -0600 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <003e01d0059d$6e1dde80$4a599b80$@classiccmp.org> I'd be looking for anything that is "Hewlett Packard" that is large/heavy, and the color is anything other than a bright white (primary interest is stuff that is greenish, brownish, or dark grey). I'd pay between $500 and $2000 depending on the item. J From david at attglobal.net Fri Nov 21 09:21:47 2014 From: david at attglobal.net (David Schmidt) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 10:21:47 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> >>From the offers I am seeing here - the scrapper is just going to > laugh, then ignore further offers. Game over. > On 11/21/2014 9:54 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > Hmmm.... There doesn't seem to be a meeting of the minds here at all. And it's a shame... if the scrapper teamed up with a curator, a lot of money could be made, and a lot of valuable stuff could be saved from actually being scrapped. Shame. Did I see this was in North Carolina? I might be able to help if the parties weren't so recalcitrant... From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 21 09:42:15 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 09:42:15 -0600 Subject: dec rainbow claimed Message-ID: <007a01d005a1$ba6921b0$2f3b6510$@classiccmp.org> The dec rainbow was claimed yesterday by a listmemeber. J From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 09:36:28 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 10:36:28 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > There doesn't seem to be a meeting of the minds here at all. And it's a > shame... if the scrapper teamed up with a curator, a lot of money could be > made, and a lot of valuable stuff could be saved from actually being > scrapped. Shame. The problem is that collectors in general have no clue to what vintage machines are worth as just plain ore. Some of the numbers being thrown around here are perhaps just over the value if each box was just scrap steel, but we know that these boxes contain much more than steel. > Did I see this was in North Carolina? I might be able to help if the > parties weren't so recalcitrant... Noted, thank you. -- Will From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Nov 21 09:39:49 2014 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:39:49 +0000 Subject: dec rainbow claimed In-Reply-To: <007a01d005a1$ba6921b0$2f3b6510$@classiccmp.org> References: <007a01d005a1$ba6921b0$2f3b6510$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <9B3121B8-EB13-48D9-A6F6-8FF53A01205A@swri.edu> Great, glad to hear it! Thanks! On Nov 21, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Jay West wrote: > The dec rainbow was claimed yesterday by a listmemeber. > > > > J > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Nov 21 10:09:02 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:09:02 -0500 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: <000f01d00598$53f11220$fbd33660$@classiccmp.org> References: <546EDE4D.10205@shiresoft.com> <546EE8E8.6000604@shiresoft.com> <000f01d00598$53f11220$fbd33660$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Hi all, I just saw that there was some discussion of Fairchild CTuL going on and it jogged my memory; thought I'd share this link discussing same (in a Burroughs context); perhaps it may be of some use. http://users.monash.edu.au/~ralphk/CTUL.html Best, Sean On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Jay West wrote: > Guy wrote.... > > I have a cross assembler for the 21xx written in 'C' (I didn't write it) > but > I don't recall where I got it from. :-( It produces an absolute binary > image that is suitable for loading using the binary loader. > > I would be very, very interested in obtaining a copy of that cross > assembler. Extremely so if it can produce relocatable object. But if not, > I'd gladly take it and extend it for same. > > Best, > > J > > > From js at cimmeri.com Fri Nov 21 10:09:57 2014 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:09:57 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <546F63D5.9090900@cimmeri.com> On 11/21/2014 10:36 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> There doesn't seem to be a meeting of the minds here at all. And it's a >> shame... if the scrapper teamed up with a curator, a lot of money could be >> made, and a lot of valuable stuff could be saved from actually being >> scrapped. Shame. > The problem is that collectors in general have no clue to what vintage > machines are worth as just plain ore. Some of the numbers being thrown > around here are perhaps just over the value if each box was just scrap > steel, but we know that these boxes contain much more than steel. Fyi, steel is currently around $6 / 100 lbs. I just turned in a 4200 lbs Chevy for $263. js. From scaron at umich.edu Fri Nov 21 10:18:30 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:18:30 -0500 Subject: Moving Sale (SF Bay Area, USA) In-Reply-To: References: <20141121061850.GA5566@loomcom.com> Message-ID: Wow, plenty of nice stuff there. I'm still taking in my two new BA23s so I think I'll sit this one out :) Hope it all finds a good home. If there aren't any bites on the 3800 I'd at least take the boards out of it if anyone wanted to facilitate... Better than having them go to WSW :| If Indy has NG-24, I could use one of those... I'm just trolling for guts & parts, LOL. Best, Sean On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 1:53 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Hey Seth! I'd like to call dibs on the blue adm3a! Will send a friend > over from HMB to pick it up at your convenience. Will you reply pirvately > & let me know when's best and what's a proper tip, pls? > > thx > jake > > (fourfifteen)952-5372 > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 1:18 AM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > > > > Well, it's finally happened. I've bought a house west of Seattle, and > > I'm going to be leaving the bay area. > > > > First things first: I am NOT getting out of classic computers! I'm > > taking a nice little core collection of microcomputers with me. That > > said, the move is going to be extremely expensive and I have a lot of > > stuff that I'm just not likely to ever get around to. Liquidating > > some stuff could save me thousands of dollars. So, it's time to try to > > pass it on. > > > > Everything here is located in Fremont, California, very close to I-880 > > and Decoto Road. It's in a garage for very easy access. Because of the > > craziness of moving, I'm very sorry to say that everything here is > > pick-up only. I cannot make the time to pack and ship. If you're remote > > and you'd like to get someone else who's local do some picking up for > > you, of course you're more than welcome. > > > > Anyway, I hate to do this, but it's time... > > > > > > > > First, the non-free stuff. I'd actually like some money for these. How > > much? I'll take reasonable offers. I'm not looking for eBay money. > > Seriously. Make an offer, the worst that could possibly happen is that > > I'll counter. > > > > - PDP-11/35. This is my semi-infamous restoration project that > > consumed much of my 2012. I very lovingly restored the power supply, > > backplanes, chassis, and front panel. The logic is almost certainly > > beyond repair. It needs a new set of cards. This system is housed in > > a full-height rack that has seen much better days. Includes a Diablo > > Series 30 drive, ECCO paper tape reader (not punch), and a DSD 440 > > 8" floppy drive. I'll throw in a big huge pile of 8" floppies. > > > > - PDP-11/53. This is a nice half-height DEC rack with a PDP-11/53 card > > set in a PDP-11/23+ chassis, plus two working RL-02 drives. Will > > include 10 RL-02 packs. This is a nice setup. It pains me more to > > get rid of this than it does the 11/35, if I'm honest. (Drive heads > > are currently parked and secured!) > > > > > > > > > > Now, the cheap and/or free WORKING stuff. Just make a token offer to > > help defray some moving costs and I'll be thrilled. > > > > - MicroVAX 3800. Nice system. Used to belong to Lockheed Martin and > > once had Hubble Space Telescope pointing control software developer > > accounts on it! > > > > - Two AlphaServer DS20e systems and 4 SCSI storage arrays. Marginally > > classic, but come on, you know you want them. > > > > - TWO MicroVAX 3100 model 80s. Loud little beasts. Lots of small > > SCSI disks. Ideal doorstops. > > > > - AlphaStation 200 4/233. Cute little desktop. Works great! > > > > - Sun SPARCClassic. > > > > - Sun SPARC IPC. > > > > - Assorted Sun keyboards / mice. > > > > - SGI Octane. It's a perfectly nice system. No keyboard / mouse. It > > has texture RAM! > > > > - SGI R5000 Indy. Also no keyboard or mouse, sorry. At least these SGI > > systems are PS/2. > > > > - A C-One FPGA system. This is not technically classic, but it is > > neat. These were sold as a re-targetable FPGA system to emulate > > Commodore Amiga A500 among other systems. Had a minor following in > > the early 2000s before the project dried up. > > > > - Heathkit H-89. Had to do some minor power supply repair to get it > > working, but it works great now. Hard-sectored floppy drive. I'll > > throw in 6 hard sectored floppies. That's all I have! > > > > - Tandy TRS-80 Model 4. > > > > - Tandy Color Computer 3, still in the box! > > > > - No-name serial terminal. It's always good to have more of these, > > right? > > > > - Sharp PC5000 > > > > - TWO DEC Rainbows (one has a bad power switch), plus monitors and > > keyboards. > > > > - Panasonic Sr. Partner luggable computer. > > > > - Packard Bell 286 > > > > - 2 or 3 TI Silent 700 terminals. (I'm keeping a few, but I have an > > absurd number of these things) > > > > - Execuport 4000 printing terminal. > > > > - DEC LA100 printing terminal. > > > > - 90% working blue ADM-3a terminal. Needs some slight logic repair, > > should be an easy job. > > > > > > > > > > Finally, the stuff that DOES NOT WORK. I just want this gone. Please > > take it. Any of these could be a fun project. If you don't take it, it > > will go to WeirdStuff Warehouse where they'll do horrible things. > > I especially > > > > - KayPro 10. > > > > - Another MicroVAX 3800. The non-working version of the one above. > > > > - DEC Professional 350. Dead video. > > > > > > > > That's it. If you happen to come over and we're going through stuff > > and I find something else I should get rid of, you're welcome to it! > > > > -Seth > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 21 10:37:06 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 08:37:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546F63D5.9090900@cimmeri.com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F63D5.9090900@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <20141121083559.X85217@shell.lmi.net> > around here are perhaps just over the value if each box was just scrap > steel, but we know that these boxes contain much more than steel. besides the gold, aluminum, "toxic" plastics, etc., how much is the soul worth? From vlad.stamate at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 10:48:32 2014 From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 08:48:32 -0800 Subject: Moving Sale (SF Bay Area, USA) In-Reply-To: References: <20141121061850.GA5566@loomcom.com> Message-ID: Hi, I sent a private message too. I am looking to get (if possible) and compensate for the Packard Bell 286, Hethkit H89 and one MicroVAX 3100. I live in the Bay Area and I can easily come by and pick up. Regards, Vlad. https://sites.google.com/site/digiloguemuseum/ On 21 November 2014 08:18, Sean Caron wrote: > Wow, plenty of nice stuff there. I'm still taking in my two new BA23s so I > think I'll sit this one out :) Hope it all finds a good home. If there > aren't any bites on the 3800 I'd at least take the boards out of it if > anyone wanted to facilitate... Better than having them go to WSW :| If Indy > has NG-24, I could use one of those... I'm just trolling for guts & parts, > LOL. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 1:53 AM, Jacob Ritorto > wrote: > >> Hey Seth! I'd like to call dibs on the blue adm3a! Will send a friend >> over from HMB to pick it up at your convenience. Will you reply pirvately >> & let me know when's best and what's a proper tip, pls? >> >> thx >> jake >> >> (fourfifteen)952-5372 >> >> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 1:18 AM, Seth Morabito wrote: >> >> > >> > Well, it's finally happened. I've bought a house west of Seattle, and >> > I'm going to be leaving the bay area. >> > >> > First things first: I am NOT getting out of classic computers! I'm >> > taking a nice little core collection of microcomputers with me. That >> > said, the move is going to be extremely expensive and I have a lot of >> > stuff that I'm just not likely to ever get around to. Liquidating >> > some stuff could save me thousands of dollars. So, it's time to try to >> > pass it on. >> > >> > Everything here is located in Fremont, California, very close to I-880 >> > and Decoto Road. It's in a garage for very easy access. Because of the >> > craziness of moving, I'm very sorry to say that everything here is >> > pick-up only. I cannot make the time to pack and ship. If you're remote >> > and you'd like to get someone else who's local do some picking up for >> > you, of course you're more than welcome. >> > >> > Anyway, I hate to do this, but it's time... >> > >> > >> > >> > First, the non-free stuff. I'd actually like some money for these. How >> > much? I'll take reasonable offers. I'm not looking for eBay money. >> > Seriously. Make an offer, the worst that could possibly happen is that >> > I'll counter. >> > >> > - PDP-11/35. This is my semi-infamous restoration project that >> > consumed much of my 2012. I very lovingly restored the power supply, >> > backplanes, chassis, and front panel. The logic is almost certainly >> > beyond repair. It needs a new set of cards. This system is housed in >> > a full-height rack that has seen much better days. Includes a Diablo >> > Series 30 drive, ECCO paper tape reader (not punch), and a DSD 440 >> > 8" floppy drive. I'll throw in a big huge pile of 8" floppies. >> > >> > - PDP-11/53. This is a nice half-height DEC rack with a PDP-11/53 card >> > set in a PDP-11/23+ chassis, plus two working RL-02 drives. Will >> > include 10 RL-02 packs. This is a nice setup. It pains me more to >> > get rid of this than it does the 11/35, if I'm honest. (Drive heads >> > are currently parked and secured!) >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Now, the cheap and/or free WORKING stuff. Just make a token offer to >> > help defray some moving costs and I'll be thrilled. >> > >> > - MicroVAX 3800. Nice system. Used to belong to Lockheed Martin and >> > once had Hubble Space Telescope pointing control software developer >> > accounts on it! >> > >> > - Two AlphaServer DS20e systems and 4 SCSI storage arrays. Marginally >> > classic, but come on, you know you want them. >> > >> > - TWO MicroVAX 3100 model 80s. Loud little beasts. Lots of small >> > SCSI disks. Ideal doorstops. >> > >> > - AlphaStation 200 4/233. Cute little desktop. Works great! >> > >> > - Sun SPARCClassic. >> > >> > - Sun SPARC IPC. >> > >> > - Assorted Sun keyboards / mice. >> > >> > - SGI Octane. It's a perfectly nice system. No keyboard / mouse. It >> > has texture RAM! >> > >> > - SGI R5000 Indy. Also no keyboard or mouse, sorry. At least these SGI >> > systems are PS/2. >> > >> > - A C-One FPGA system. This is not technically classic, but it is >> > neat. These were sold as a re-targetable FPGA system to emulate >> > Commodore Amiga A500 among other systems. Had a minor following in >> > the early 2000s before the project dried up. >> > >> > - Heathkit H-89. Had to do some minor power supply repair to get it >> > working, but it works great now. Hard-sectored floppy drive. I'll >> > throw in 6 hard sectored floppies. That's all I have! >> > >> > - Tandy TRS-80 Model 4. >> > >> > - Tandy Color Computer 3, still in the box! >> > >> > - No-name serial terminal. It's always good to have more of these, >> > right? >> > >> > - Sharp PC5000 >> > >> > - TWO DEC Rainbows (one has a bad power switch), plus monitors and >> > keyboards. >> > >> > - Panasonic Sr. Partner luggable computer. >> > >> > - Packard Bell 286 >> > >> > - 2 or 3 TI Silent 700 terminals. (I'm keeping a few, but I have an >> > absurd number of these things) >> > >> > - Execuport 4000 printing terminal. >> > >> > - DEC LA100 printing terminal. >> > >> > - 90% working blue ADM-3a terminal. Needs some slight logic repair, >> > should be an easy job. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Finally, the stuff that DOES NOT WORK. I just want this gone. Please >> > take it. Any of these could be a fun project. If you don't take it, it >> > will go to WeirdStuff Warehouse where they'll do horrible things. >> > I especially >> > >> > - KayPro 10. >> > >> > - Another MicroVAX 3800. The non-working version of the one above. >> > >> > - DEC Professional 350. Dead video. >> > >> > >> > >> > That's it. If you happen to come over and we're going through stuff >> > and I find something else I should get rid of, you're welcome to it! >> > >> > -Seth >> > >> From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 21 10:29:32 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 08:29:32 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <546F686C.1090508@bitsavers.org> On 11/21/14 7:21 AM, David Schmidt wrote: > if the scrapper teamed up with a curator, a lot of money could be made, and a lot of valuable stuff could be saved > from actually being scrapped. Shame. > And from my dealing with scrappers for decades, as Will said, they won't waste their time with the small-time collectors that hang out here. If you aren't talking thousands of dollars, and big lots, you don't play. Anything less is chump change that they may put some flunky on trying to sell on eBay. Witness what happened with Sellam's collection for the past two years. They screwed around with it trying to find someone to buy the whole thing, spent six months with truckloads at the DeAnza flea market, then dumped the rest. What I'm seeing more of now is just collectors selling between each other, with prices slowly ratcheting up on desirable pieces, and most of the rest getting scrapped. From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 10:35:52 2014 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:35:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Moving Sale (SF Bay Area, USA) In-Reply-To: <20141121061850.GA5566@loomcom.com> References: <20141121061850.GA5566@loomcom.com> Message-ID: > - Heathkit H-89. Had to do some minor power supply repair to get it > working, but it works great now. Hard-sectored floppy drive. I'll > throw in 6 hard sectored floppies. That's all I have! > > - Tandy TRS-80 Model 4. > > - Tandy Color Computer 3, still in the box! Hi, Seth. Sent you private e-mail, but in case you look here first I have someone in your area lined up to pickup the three systems above this weekend. Let me know if I'm going to get lucky? Steve -- From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 10:35:07 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:35:07 -0000 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546F686C.1090508@bitsavers.org> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F686C.1090508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <084a01d005a9$1d65b100$58311300$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al > Kossow > Sent: 21 November 2014 16:30 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: mainframes and other stuff > > On 11/21/14 7:21 AM, David Schmidt wrote: > > if the scrapper teamed up with a curator, a lot of money could be > > made, and a lot of valuable stuff could be saved from actually being > scrapped. Shame. > > > > And from my dealing with scrappers for decades, as Will said, they won't > waste their time with the small-time collectors that hang out here. If you > aren't talking thousands of dollars, and big lots, you don't play. Anything less > is chump change that they may put some flunky on trying to sell on eBay. > Witness what happened with Sellam's collection for the past two years. They > screwed around with it trying to find someone to buy the whole thing, spent > six months with truckloads at the DeAnza flea market, then dumped the rest. > > What I'm seeing more of now is just collectors selling between each other, > with prices slowly ratcheting up on desirable pieces, and most of the rest > getting scrapped. > Any thing not collectable gets quickly binned. I am about to bin a set of IBM PC manuals (not sure if they are XT or AT, possibly a mix) as no one has space for them... Dave From vlad.stamate at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 10:52:51 2014 From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 08:52:51 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546F686C.1090508@bitsavers.org> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F686C.1090508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 21 November 2014 08:29, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/21/14 7:21 AM, David Schmidt wrote: >> >> if the scrapper teamed up with a curator, a lot of money could be made, >> and a lot of valuable stuff could be saved >> from actually being scrapped. Shame. >> > > And from my dealing with scrappers for decades, as Will said, they won't > waste their time with the small-time collectors > that hang out here. If you aren't talking thousands of dollars, and big > lots, you don't play. Anything less is chump change > that they may put some flunky on trying to sell on eBay. Witness what > happened with Sellam's collection for the past two > years. They screwed around with it trying to find someone to buy the whole > thing, spent six months with truckloads at the > DeAnza flea market, then dumped the rest. Oh so that is what I was buying from at De Anza? The huge trucks that kept having surprisingly interesting good value vintage computers and manuals. I was wondering how did those guys have mainly good stuff to sell. Regards, Vlad. > > What I'm seeing more of now is just collectors selling between each other, > with prices slowly ratcheting up on desirable > pieces, and most of the rest getting scrapped. > > > > > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 11:23:29 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 12:23:29 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F63D5.9090900@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: mainframes and other stuff > Fyi, steel is currently around $6 / 100 lbs. I just turned in a 4200 lbs > Chevy for $263. > > js. ----------------- Around here (Toronto) ordinary computers are worth 0.40/lb.; just scrapped $200 worth of nice and heavy IBM boxes, with a pile still to go. Better than parking them at the curb. m From sales at elecplus.com Fri Nov 21 11:30:16 2014 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:30:16 -0600 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <016b01d005b0$d0a372a0$71ea57e0$@com> Control Data, I have an external SCSI hdd box, takes 2 x 50-pin, but there are no drives in it. Also some OLD desktop looking boxes that say CDC, but they are NOT anything like a PC. Will try to get some pics. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Linimon Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 5:10 AM To: jwsmail at jwsss.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: mainframes and other stuff On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 02:25:07AM -0800, jwsmobile wrote: > I'm sure there are none, but an RCA Spectra 70 Oh wow. You've woken up some long-sleeping neurons. I'm sure that all of these long ago got recycled, but I'd buy a front panel. Also: any piece of a Bendix G-15, or anything Control Data, let me know. (It goes without saying: a PDP-11/20.) mcl ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4794 / Virus Database: 4189/8607 - Release Date: 11/21/14 From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 21 11:47:07 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 09:47:07 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <546F7A9B.5030701@jwsss.com> On 11/21/2014 6:54 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > Hmmm.... > > >From the offers I am seeing here - the scrapper is just going to > laugh, then ignore further offers. Game over. > > -- > Will My list was posted just because she asked for specifics. I did pay this to a very basic scrapper and if you have an update, I posted my best recollection of the mass. Please update it if you all want to make a contribution. The list I gave covers the most likely to be found air-cooled mainframes. I paid the price of about 2 to 3 x steel scrap for all of my data center. It still lives on in the possession of a list member or 2. people post 3420's for 4000 bucks. No scrapper is going to get that. If he wants to admire the scrap in his warehouse till someone might pay that for it, then it will be crap by the time the buyer gets to it. As sold by the top of the thread, Cindy suggested the person was smashing this up and wanted specifics. Add them please. It has been 30 years since I bought this, and I don't know what the price differential is, you seem to, so contribute it. Jim From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Nov 21 11:58:43 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:58:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546F686C.1090508@bitsavers.org> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F686C.1090508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Nov 2014, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/21/14 7:21 AM, David Schmidt wrote: > >> if the scrapper teamed up with a curator, a lot of money could be made, >> and a lot of valuable stuff could be saved from actually being >> scrapped. Shame. > > And from my dealing with scrappers for decades, as Will said, they won't > waste their time with the small-time collectors that hang out here. If > you aren't talking thousands of dollars, and big lots, you don't play. > Anything less is chump change that they may put some flunky on trying to > sell on eBay. Witness what happened with Sellam's collection for the > past two years. They screwed around with it trying to find someone to > buy the whole thing, spent six months with truckloads at the DeAnza flea > market, then dumped the rest. Was that /after/ they tried selling items piecemeal with all those eBay accounts they created? IMO those guys were -way- over their heads with the ill-gotten gear they took from Sellam. Greed plan and simple, from the landlord's imagined riches to the to the scrap company he convinced to take take it on. I for one hope that particular scrapper lost their ass once the final numbers rolled around. > What I'm seeing more of now is just collectors selling between each > other, with prices slowly ratcheting up on desirable pieces, and most of > the rest getting scrapped. Collectors by and large just don't have room to take on large lots of gear. I've taken on a few large hauls over the years that were pretty much my limit as far as volume goes (all of it good stuff too). Even now I'm still nowhere near done going though that gear. From sales at elecplus.com Fri Nov 21 12:00:44 2014 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 12:00:44 -0600 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546F7A9B.5030701@jwsss.com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F7A9B.5030701@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <01a701d005b5$12a61c80$37f25580$@com> The scrappers don't care what model it is, or how many boards, or if it has a tape drive. It weighs xxx pounds, and is thus worth xxx $$ to them. So, yes, you could conceivably pick up a $2000 gizmo for $200. I am collecting a list of the brands and models, but so far, very few pics have been sent my way. Even something from an ad on the internet is fine. The scrappers are very visual, and a dark brown cabinet will yield lots of results. Lots of switches and lights is cool, but they don't turn them on (I don't think u want them to), and the $8 sorters barely speak English, and don't know what anything is. The more visual we can be, the better our chances. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwsmobile Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 11:47 AM To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: mainframes and other stuff On 11/21/2014 6:54 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > Hmmm.... > > >From the offers I am seeing here - the scrapper is just going to > laugh, then ignore further offers. Game over. > > -- > Will My list was posted just because she asked for specifics. I did pay this to a very basic scrapper and if you have an update, I posted my best recollection of the mass. Please update it if you all want to make a contribution. The list I gave covers the most likely to be found air-cooled mainframes. I paid the price of about 2 to 3 x steel scrap for all of my data center. It still lives on in the possession of a list member or 2. people post 3420's for 4000 bucks. No scrapper is going to get that. If he wants to admire the scrap in his warehouse till someone might pay that for it, then it will be crap by the time the buyer gets to it. As sold by the top of the thread, Cindy suggested the person was smashing this up and wanted specifics. Add them please. It has been 30 years since I bought this, and I don't know what the price differential is, you seem to, so contribute it. Jim ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4794 / Virus Database: 4189/8607 - Release Date: 11/21/14 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 12:08:38 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 18:08:38 -0000 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546F7A9B.5030701@jwsss.com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F7A9B.5030701@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <001401d005b6$2d14a9a0$873dfce0$@gmail.com> > I paid the price of about 2 to 3 x steel scrap for all of my data center. It still > lives on in the possession of a list member or 2. > > people post 3420's for 4000 bucks. No scrapper is going to get that. No but I would have thought a 3420 is a big chunk of steel, aluminium and copper. At least $200 possibly 400-600.. > If he wants to admire the scrap in his warehouse till someone might pay that > for it, then it will be crap by the time the buyer gets to it. > > As sold by the top of the thread, Cindy suggested the person was smashing > this up and wanted specifics. > > Add them please. It has been 30 years since I bought this, and I don't know > what the price differential is, you seem to, so contribute it. > > Jim From isking at uw.edu Fri Nov 21 12:11:29 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 10:11:29 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <01a701d005b5$12a61c80$37f25580$@com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F7A9B.5030701@jwsss.com> <01a701d005b5$12a61c80$37f25580$@com> Message-ID: Forklift? I generally rely on a large group of friends or a small group of large friends. Two of us moved my VAX 6600. On Nov 21, 2014 10:01 AM, "Electronics Plus" wrote: > The scrappers don't care what model it is, or how many boards, or if it > has a tape drive. > It weighs xxx pounds, and is thus worth xxx $$ to them. > So, yes, you could conceivably pick up a $2000 gizmo for $200. > > I am collecting a list of the brands and models, but so far, very few pics > have been sent my way. Even something from an ad on the internet is fine. > The scrappers are very visual, and a dark brown cabinet will yield lots of > results. Lots of switches and lights is cool, but they don't turn them on > (I don't think u want them to), and the $8 sorters barely speak English, > and don't know what anything is. The more visual we can be, the better our > chances. > > Cindy > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwsmobile > Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 11:47 AM > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: mainframes and other stuff > > > On 11/21/2014 6:54 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > > Hmmm.... > > > > >From the offers I am seeing here - the scrapper is just going to > > laugh, then ignore further offers. Game over. > > > > -- > > Will > > My list was posted just because she asked for specifics. I did pay this > to a very basic scrapper and if you have an update, I posted my best > recollection of the mass. Please update it if you all want to make a > contribution. > > The list I gave covers the most likely to be found air-cooled mainframes. > > I paid the price of about 2 to 3 x steel scrap for all of my data center. > It still lives on in the possession of a list member or 2. > > people post 3420's for 4000 bucks. No scrapper is going to get that. > If he wants to admire the scrap in his warehouse till someone might pay > that for it, then it will be crap by the time the buyer gets to it. > > As sold by the top of the thread, Cindy suggested the person was smashing > this up and wanted specifics. > > Add them please. It has been 30 years since I bought this, and I don't > know what the price differential is, you seem to, so contribute it. > > Jim > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4794 / Virus Database: 4189/8607 - Release Date: 11/21/14 > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 12:27:26 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:27:26 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F686C.1090508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <90386ED6FE1542458ED4AA275C1A6252@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 12:58 PM Subject: Re: mainframes and other stuff > > Was that /after/ they tried selling items piecemeal with all those eBay > accounts they created? IMO those guys were -way- over their heads with the > ill-gotten gear they took from Sellam. Greed plan and simple, from the > landlord's imagined riches to the to the scrap company he convinced to > take take it on. I for one hope that particular scrapper lost their ass > once the final numbers rolled around. --------------- I don't get it. Sellam should have simply paid his rent instead of jerking his landlord around for month after month with missed deadlines, broken promises, a law suit etc. Period. Whether you call it 'greed' or just the landlord trying to collect the back rent owed, we should thank them and the scrapper for the opportunity to save some pretty rare equipment instead of just scrapping it. What did the folks who refused to buy any of it out of 'loyalty' to Sellam accomplish other than ensuring that some worth while stuff did end up being scrapped? And how do the folks who donated items to Sellam's 'museum' in good faith feel about him letting it end up on eBay and as scrap because of his intransigence and refusal to ask the community to help save the collection? m From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 21 12:41:26 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 10:41:26 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F7A9B.5030701@jwsss.com> <01a701d005b5$12a61c80$37f25580$@com> Message-ID: <546F8756.80303@update.uu.se> 6000-series VAXen are not really that big or heavy. They're just a single 22" cabinet. Come back when you have an 86x0 or a 9000... :-) (Or any PDP-10 except a KS.) Johnny On 2014-11-21 10:11, Ian S. King wrote: > Forklift? I generally rely on a large group of friends or a small group of > large friends. Two of us moved my VAX 6600. > On Nov 21, 2014 10:01 AM, "Electronics Plus" wrote: > >> The scrappers don't care what model it is, or how many boards, or if it >> has a tape drive. >> It weighs xxx pounds, and is thus worth xxx $$ to them. >> So, yes, you could conceivably pick up a $2000 gizmo for $200. >> >> I am collecting a list of the brands and models, but so far, very few pics >> have been sent my way. Even something from an ad on the internet is fine. >> The scrappers are very visual, and a dark brown cabinet will yield lots of >> results. Lots of switches and lights is cool, but they don't turn them on >> (I don't think u want them to), and the $8 sorters barely speak English, >> and don't know what anything is. The more visual we can be, the better our >> chances. >> >> Cindy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwsmobile >> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 11:47 AM >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and >> Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: mainframes and other stuff >> >> >> On 11/21/2014 6:54 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Hmmm.... >>> >>> >From the offers I am seeing here - the scrapper is just going to >>> laugh, then ignore further offers. Game over. >>> >>> -- >>> Will >> >> My list was posted just because she asked for specifics. I did pay this >> to a very basic scrapper and if you have an update, I posted my best >> recollection of the mass. Please update it if you all want to make a >> contribution. >> >> The list I gave covers the most likely to be found air-cooled mainframes. >> >> I paid the price of about 2 to 3 x steel scrap for all of my data center. >> It still lives on in the possession of a list member or 2. >> >> people post 3420's for 4000 bucks. No scrapper is going to get that. >> If he wants to admire the scrap in his warehouse till someone might pay >> that for it, then it will be crap by the time the buyer gets to it. >> >> As sold by the top of the thread, Cindy suggested the person was smashing >> this up and wanted specifics. >> >> Add them please. It has been 30 years since I bought this, and I don't >> know what the price differential is, you seem to, so contribute it. >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2014.0.4794 / Virus Database: 4189/8607 - Release Date: 11/21/14 >> >> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 21 12:58:16 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 18:58:16 +0000 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > 12531-60022 Buffered TTY Reg (2 off) looks to be current loop and RS232 serial > > Those should be 12531C's, they should have 225.28 KHz crystals, intended for 110 baud operation. > Changing the crystal to 307.2 KHz should change it to a 12531D, for the standard baud rate series, if desired. > These are the common console-device interface. Yes, I have checked the (plug-in) crystals, both are the 225.28kHz ones. So I guess 110 buad for a Teletype. I have downloaded the manual from the Australian museum site. I think it would be easy to hack them for other baud rates if necessary, the 307.2kHz crystal not being easy to find, but 8 times it is. According to the manual it can link to an HP2752A teleprinter. I have downloaded the HP part of the manual on that too, it's an ASR33 with 'wiring changes' Alas the manual doesn't describe exactly what the changes are. It does give the schematic, though. One change is obviously to fit the reader control PCB, but there may well be others. According to the 12531 manual, the interface is current-loop-like to link the HP2752A (it may well not be standard enough to work with other devices), but there are extra transistor circuits on the board that can be linked in with jumpers on the device edge connector to make it work with EIA (RS232) signals. Which sounds useful > > 12592-6001 +8 but Dup Reg (8 bit parallel for paper tape punch/reader?) > > yes This seems similar in concept to the HP11202 interface that I know well from my 9800s. In that it only has one set of strobe and flag lines for both input and output. So alas I don't think it can be used with both a punch and reader at the same time. Oh well... FWIW I rescued this machine from a skip (dumpster) many years ago. With it were an HP7900A disk drive (although no PSU for it) and an HP2748A tape reader. The last I have got working [1]. I was going to use the drive with my 9830 (and probably still will) -- I have now got the PSU [1] If you take one of these apart you _need_ the alignment madrell. It's easy to turn one from steel rod, but without it you will never get the motor positioned properly. It will seem to run but will be wearing the clutch parts. > > What is Current Transfer Logic, the machine seems to be full of such ICs? Any data sheets, > > etc out there? > > The 2116,15,14 and 2100 used Fairchild CTuL, along with some TTL. > > The family name is actually "Complementary Transistor MicroLogic". Yes, I was foolish enough to see 'CTL' in the HP parts lists and then look that up on google. I now realise my mistake. I have found some data on CTuL on the web. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 21 13:02:49 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 19:02:49 +0000 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: <546EE478.2060101@sbcglobal.net> References: , <546EE478.2060101@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: [HP2100 core memory top connector] > There's a chance I can come up with a connector, but won't be able to > look until the beginning of December. > I'll look and see what I have. I was given a box of them that were > removed from 2116c's (same core as the 2100). Thanks. I will look at the part numbers to see just what I need. If you have one, it would be great. > >> One major problem concerns the power switch. I don't have the key, and it's currently in the > > 'panel lock' position. Now, I can trivially jumper the switch to enable the panel but I would > > rather not. > > I have eleven 2100's and they all use the same key. Doesn't mean that That's greedy :-) > all 2100's do, but mine did. > I can send you a key if you want. Thanks. It's certainly worth a try before I take the lock apart and try to re-pin it. -tony Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 21 13:07:49 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 19:07:49 +0000 Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: <54F3D199-E608-4049-9CD5-EB408DABD3AD@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <54F3D199-E608-4049-9CD5-EB408DABD3AD@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > I've never seen a manufacturer-original built-in RS-232 adapter for them, at least not inside the 33 proper (the > keyboard-printer unit). Not strictly Teletype, but there was a company called Data Dynamics who sold the Model 390 (IIRC). This was Teleype ASR33 mechanicals (keyboard, printer/punch, reader) with totally different electronics in a rather nice metal casing the enclosed the paper and tape rolls, and which even had a couple of little bulbs to illuninate the printing. At least one verson of that did have both RS232 and current loop interfaces. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 13:11:44 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:11:44 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <016b01d005b0$d0a372a0$71ea57e0$@com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <016b01d005b0$d0a372a0$71ea57e0$@com> Message-ID: > Control Data, I have an external SCSI hdd box, takes 2 x 50-pin, but there > are no drives in it. I have a good pile of those thing, so I really so not need more. > Also some OLD desktop looking boxes that say CDC, but they are NOT anything > like a PC. > Will try to get some pics. That could be very interesting. They could be PLATO boxes, or heavily modified PC used as later Cyber consoles. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 21 13:13:15 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 19:13:15 +0000 Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: References: <001c01d0055e$909457d0$b1bd0770$@ntlworld.com>, Message-ID: > If you - or anyone - have links to digital copies of the Mdl. 33 service / > operator's manuals, please send those my way - would be very much > appreciated! Take a look on the Australian HP museum web site (http://www.hpmuseum.net/) under the HP2752A terminal. I am pretty sure the available documentation there includes all 3 volumes of the Model 33 manual. > I presume the rubber hammer isn't so much a /rubber hammer/ as a steel > hammer with a bonded rubber face? Sort of like a pinch roller or drive It's a steel bracket with a rubber 'head' fitted over a stud, The head is actually a separate part, it wasn't bonded on. At one time I had some new spares, but alas they have decayed by now. If the head is decayed/missing, then the steel stud hits the type cylinder, with obvious unpleasant results. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 13:14:12 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:14:12 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <001401d005b6$2d14a9a0$873dfce0$@gmail.com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F7A9B.5030701@jwsss.com> <001401d005b6$2d14a9a0$873dfce0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> people post 3420's for 4000 bucks. No scrapper is going to get that. Of course not. That is why they do not sell. However, there are more than a few retired mainframers that have a lot of money that have a 3420 in their study, just for looks. > No but I would have thought a 3420 is a big chunk of steel, aluminium and copper. At least $200 possibly 400-600.. Probably pretty close estimate, 400-600. -- Will From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 21 13:14:45 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:14:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re; What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? Message-ID: <20141121191445.32AB118C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: drlegendre > And one more - how do you differentiate a 20mA current-loop model from > a 'standard' RS-232 model? I believe the Model 37 is the RS-232 Teletype. (Is it based on the 33, or 35? I don't know.) If you have a working UNIBUS PDP-11, there are still 20mA serial interfaces avalable for it. I have a DL11-C (M7800-YA) you can have for what I paid for it (a song, just about), and someone on eBay has a DZ11-C (M7814) for sale for cheap; someone else there has the breakout panel for it. Noel From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Nov 21 13:20:46 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:20:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <90386ED6FE1542458ED4AA275C1A6252@310e2> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F686C.1090508@bitsavers.org> <90386ED6FE1542458ED4AA275C1A6252@310e2> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Nov 2014, Mike Stein wrote: > On Fri, 21 Nov 2014, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Was that /after/ they tried selling items piecemeal with all those eBay >> accounts they created? IMO those guys were -way- over their heads with >> the ill-gotten gear they took from Sellam. Greed plan and simple, from >> the landlord's imagined riches to the to the scrap company he convinced >> to take take it on. I for one hope that particular scrapper lost their >> ass once the final numbers rolled around. > > I don't get it. > > Sellam should have simply paid his rent instead of jerking his landlord > around for month after month with missed deadlines, broken promises, a > law suit etc. > > Period. Maybe, just maybe, there was a whole lot more to it than that? Sellam no doubt made his share of mistakes, but his former landlord and the scrap dealer he contracted were absolutely in the wrong with what they did. Period. That landlord thought Sellam's gear was worth huge amounts of money, got greedy, and began looking for ways to take stuff for his own financial gain. > Whether you call it 'greed' or just the landlord trying to collect the > back rent owed, we should thank them and the scrapper for the > opportunity to save some pretty rare equipment instead of just scrapping > it. The amount of rent supposedly owed was far less than what the landlord thought he could collect when he sold much of Sellam's palletized gear to that scrapper. In fact, that landlord would have never pulled that stunt had he not contacted that scrapper who in turn convinced him they could make a ton of money if they were to sell off Sellam's stuff. > What did the folks who refused to buy any of it out of 'loyalty' to > Sellam accomplish other than ensuring that some worth while stuff did > end up being scrapped? Do you know first hand if anything irreplaceable or of real value ended up scrapped? I rather doubt avoiding those eBay listings made much difference in the larger scheme of things. While I tried to avoid any eBay listings that scrapper posted, there were plenty of other people who were more than happy to bid on those listings (including quite a few individuals who were also happy to publicly express hate towards Sellam on various computing forums because they were jealous of how he had acquired so much gear). The only thing avoiding those listings did was potentially cause them to sell for a lower amount than they -might- have otherwise. If everyone refused to do business with people and companies like that scrapper, it would do a lot to discourage them or someone else like them from attempting to take advantage of others in the future. It is my choice to decide with whom I do business, and if I don't agree with how they act or do business, I don't have to do business with them. I also see it somewhat akin to being held hostage; ie. buy this stuff or else, and I'm not about to do business with someone like that. > And how do the folks who donated items to Sellam's 'museum' in good > faith feel about him letting it end up on eBay and as scrap because of > his intransigence and refusal to ask the community to help save the > collection? I had previously given some stuff to Sellam and I later saw some of it listed on eBay by that scrapper. Are you asking how I feel about that? If and when I feel Sellam has a stable facility again sometime in the future, I may very well decide to send him some more stuff. I do think Sellam should have been more open and up front with the community regarding his financial problem and should have asked for help sooner. That said, I can understand why he didn't (pride) and even had he done so, how much help would he have actually gotten? [I once asked trying to find locals to help me pull stuff that was being dumpstered and got -0- response from anyone in the classiccmp community.] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 21 13:20:57 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 19:20:57 +0000 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: <000301d00597$3a230ac0$ae692040$@classiccmp.org> References: , <000301d00597$3a230ac0$ae692040$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > Congrats, the 2100 is a wonderful machine. IMHO, the > easiest/quickest/MostFunctional front panel ever on any computer. The "light > being the pushbutton" allows for really quick entry/changes and strong > visual cues. I find I can enter front panel code quicker on that panel than > any other. Yes, fortunately I do have the 'full' panel. I've not tested all the bulbs yet, although I do find extracting them and getting them back to be painful. The fomer is possible using my (UK) Post Office Extractor Np 5 (used for telephone exchange bulbs), but aligning the pins with the tiny holes in the switch to re-insert them is a pain... [Floating point] > I believe the microcode listings are around. Can't put my fingers on it at > the moment. I have the CPU microcode listings, I think, in one of the manuals. I've also read the microcoding manual, for all I don't have a WCS board (that is something I [Panel keylock switch] > I probably have a spare key... but at the least, I'm sure I could loan you a > key so you can have a copy made. I have been offered a spare key already. If that doesn't work out, I suspect taking the lock apart and measuring the pins is the way forwards. These locks are not complicated, I have done it before on other machines. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 13:41:31 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:41:31 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Here is what I would offer for these thing, with CASH IN HAND. $100 bills work wonders. Yes, these numbers are well above scrap value. > 3180 6' box 500# $300 3180 is a terminal. Do you mean 3380? > 3380 6' box disk drive 600# $300 $600-1000. > 3370 disk drives, need A and B units $200 (also 3375 if the storage 3180 box > comes with it) $400 per unit. > 4321, 31, 41, 61, these are "deep freeze shaped" $500- $1000 $1000. > 4381 6' box, 900# $1000 $2000, GOLD. GOLD. GOLD. > 3420 600# $300 (tape drive) $500. > 3803 800# $300 (tape controller) (both needed) $500-1000. It depends on the quality of the backplanes - some are gold, some not. > 3278 (terminals) > 3179 (color terminal) (only coax, twinax not so much) Terminals are good as bargaining chips, since their scrap value is sometimes negative. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 13:45:27 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:45:27 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546F63D5.9090900@cimmeri.com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F63D5.9090900@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > Fyi, steel is currently around $6 / 100 lbs. I just turned in a 4200 lbs > Chevy for $263. When they sell to the mill, they will certainly do better than that. That is the thing many collector do not get - in order to win a scrapper over, you have to beat what *he* will get for the scrap, not what he will pay for it. And the problem is those numbers will often be a big mystery. It will vary greatly on a per mill, per deal, per phase of the moon basis. -- Will From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 13:46:29 2014 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:46:29 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Message-ID: Hi All - I'm looking into getting a bigger Sun box (bigger than my E3000) and after reading the specs... If I'm really going to do this, I'll need to get some 220v outlets wired up. (I'm in the US.) Any advice to pass along for this? I'd much rather listen to other people's surprises than have to rediscover them on my own. How much of what you collect requires 220v? How many big boxes do you keep running - 24/7 or just turn it on/off as you want to use it? I guess somewhere in the back of my mind, I realized that old machines took lots of power. But do the collectors here wire up their homes and keep machines there? Or do you have another place (old warehouse or somesuch) that already supports multiple 220v hookups? Or do you colo it somewhere? Not yet sure how expensive it would be, but my wife thinks I'm completely certifiable. Todd Killingsworth From sales at elecplus.com Fri Nov 21 13:53:15 2014 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:53:15 -0600 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F63D5.9090900@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <024601d005c4$cd1308d0$67391a70$@com> Right now scrappers are paying 5-6 cents per pound for scrap steel. They get up to 12-14 cents from the foundry, depending on how clean it is. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 1:45 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: mainframes and other stuff > Fyi, steel is currently around $6 / 100 lbs. I just turned in a 4200 > lbs Chevy for $263. When they sell to the mill, they will certainly do better than that. That is the thing many collector do not get - in order to win a scrapper over, you have to beat what *he* will get for the scrap, not what he will pay for it. And the problem is those numbers will often be a big mystery. It will vary greatly on a per mill, per deal, per phase of the moon basis. -- Will ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4794 / Virus Database: 4189/8607 - Release Date: 11/21/14 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 13:55:18 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:55:18 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <01a701d005b5$12a61c80$37f25580$@com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F7A9B.5030701@jwsss.com> <01a701d005b5$12a61c80$37f25580$@com> Message-ID: > I am collecting a list of the brands and models, but so far, very few pics have been sent my way. Even something from an ad on the internet is fine. The scrappers are very visual, and a dark brown cabinet will yield lots of results. Lots of switches and lights is cool, but they don't turn them on (I don't think u want them to), and the $8 sorters barely speak English, and don't know what anything is. The more visual we can be, the better our chances. The IBM 3880 is a pretty generic looking late-1970s/1980s box: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_PH3380A.html Many interesting IBM look pretty much just like this. The colors may change, the black control panel may differ, but the ends are almost always white. Anything that looks like this is probably of interest. -- Will From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 13:58:27 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:58:27 -0600 Subject: Re; What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: <20141121191445.32AB118C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141121191445.32AB118C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Noel, On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 1:14 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > If you have a working UNIBUS PDP-11, there are still 20mA serial interfaces > avalable for it. I have a DL11-C (M7800-YA) you can have for what I paid > for > it (a song, just about), and someone on eBay has a DZ11-C (M7814) for sale > for cheap; someone else there has the breakout panel for it. I have virtually no idea what any of that means. =/ From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Nov 21 14:01:09 2014 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 12:01:09 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F63D5.9090900@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <005801d005c5$e68a1690$b39e43b0$@net> > When they sell to the mill, they will certainly do better than that. > > That is the thing many collector do not get - in order to win a > scrapper over, you have to beat what *he* will get for the scrap, not > what he will pay for it. And the problem is those numbers will often be > a big mystery. It will vary greatly on a per mill, per deal, per phase > of the moon basis. Well to me this sounds like a no brainer. The scrapper needs to weigh items post a picture of the item with a price (say what he thinks he will get at the mill plus 15% for his troubles). Everyone is a winner (items saved from scrap and the scrapper makes good money). Anything else is a fishing expedition to see if he can get $4000 for an item a mill will pay $200 for. -Ali From tsg at bonedaddy.net Fri Nov 21 14:03:33 2014 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:03:33 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141121200333.GB4645@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Hi Todd, You can tell your wife that there's someone out there who built a steel building, had to bring power a couple hundred feet underground (with a brand new transformer 120 feet along that run,) and has 400amp service with many 220V and 110V circuits installed. My wife thinks I'm certifiable as well since there couldn't possibly be anyone else in the world interested in this "junk." Oh, and also that I'm a "semi-hoarder." Another Todd * Todd Killingsworth [141121 14:46]: > Hi All - > > I'm looking into getting a bigger Sun box (bigger than my E3000) and after > reading the specs... If I'm really going to do this, I'll need to get some > 220v outlets wired up. (I'm in the US.) Any advice to pass along for this? > I'd much rather listen to other people's surprises than have to rediscover > them on my own. > > How much of what you collect requires 220v? How many big boxes do you keep > running - 24/7 or just turn it on/off as you want to use it? > > I guess somewhere in the back of my mind, I realized that old machines > took lots of power. But do the collectors here wire up their homes and > keep machines there? Or do you have another place (old warehouse or > somesuch) that already supports multiple 220v hookups? Or do you colo it > somewhere? > > Not yet sure how expensive it would be, but my wife thinks I'm completely > certifiable. > > Todd Killingsworth From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Nov 21 14:04:04 2014 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 20:04:04 +0000 Subject: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage conditions In-Reply-To: <20141121125256.1A5C218C14D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141121125256.1A5C218C14D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <546F9AB4.80401@ntlworld.com> On 21/11/14 12:52, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Really? Wow. With all the machines that used BA23 boxes (both -11s and > uVAXen), you'd think that the printset for _one_ of them would have included > the H7864. I think that was a 3rd party PSU (Astec maybe) so DEC may never have had access to the printset or (at least) never had permission to redistribute any printset they may have had access to. Antonio From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Nov 21 14:15:10 2014 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 20:15:10 +0000 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: <01PF6GOEYXS2003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150058.0852B2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <01PF5HHDHDXW003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <01PF6GOEYXS2003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <546F9D4E.1080800@ntlworld.com> On 20/11/14 15:35, Peter Coghlan wrote: > The pictures all depict exactly what I have here. It is possible to > just about make out the little slider control in some of them but > there is nothing to explain what it is for or even acknowledge it's > existance. I'm intrigued. The owners manual seems to suggest that > these CD things are far too delicate to be handled and each should > live permanently in it's own dedicated caddy :-) Regards, Peter Coghlan. I guess that it's part of the weird loading mechanism. It's been a number of years since I've tried to use my RRD40, but iirc, you slip the disc into the "antlers" and then slide that into the plastic caddy. That whole caboodle is then inserted into the RRD40. The internal mechanism somehow grabs the antlers+disc and what you pull out is an empty caddy. To retrieve the disc, you insert the empty caddy into the drive and out it comes with the antlers+disc. Manually removing the disc from the caddy involves squeezing the antlers to free them somehow. I *think* the idea was that your discs would each live permanently in a caddy or inside a drive. Removing the disc from the caddy was quite clunky, iirc. So I presume the extra tabs and sliders and whatnot are there for the drive to do its magic. Antonio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 21 14:15:42 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 20:15:42 +0000 Subject: Re; What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: References: <20141121191445.32AB118C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, Message-ID: > > > > > If you have a working UNIBUS PDP-11, there are still 20mA serial interfaces > > avalable for it. I have a DL11-C (M7800-YA) you can have for what I paid > > for > > it (a song, just about), and someone on eBay has a DZ11-C (M7814) for sale > > for cheap; someone else there has the breakout panel for it. > > > I have virtually no idea what any of that means. =/ OK... Unibus is the bus used by older PDP11 computers (and VAXen). It is similar in concept to Qbus (as used on later PDP11s and some VAXen), but the major difference is that Unibus has separate pins for the Address and Data signals, Qbus multiplexes them onto the same pins. Needless to say you can't plug a Unibus card into a Qbus machine or vice versa. There was a official DEC interface (DW11-B) to use Qbus peripherals on a Unibus CPU, and I think third party interfaces to go the other way. A PDP11 is a DEC 16 bit minicomputer. But I guess you knew that. The DL11 is the common single serial port for Unibus PDP11s. I think all versions can do current loop, most can also do RS232 (with the right cable wiring). The ones that are current loop only can often be converted to having the RS232 capability by adding some common ICs '20mA serial interface' means much the same thing here as 'current loop'. The RS232 interface signals the 2 states of a signal line (0 and 1, mark and space, whatever you call them) by a change in voltage on the interface pin. A current loop interface uses a change of current (here either 20mA for 'mark' and 0mA for 'space') to do the same thing. The 'current loop' is a simple electrical circuit containing a current source, a transmitter (which switches the current on and off, and in the case of the ASR33 really is a (very complex) mechanical switch) and a receiver (which senses the current flowing in the loop). In many cases the current source is built into the same unit as either the transmitter or receiver, which is then termed 'active' (one without the current source is called 'passive' and the rule is that you connect an active device to a passive device A DZ11 is another Unibus board, this time an 8 channel serial port. It shares a small number of I/O addresses between all the ports and can be a bit of a pain to program at the bare metal level. IIRC the DZ11-C is a current loop one -- there are different boards for RS232 and current loop here and it is very difficult (read 'impossible') to convert one to the other. The 'breakout' panel, aka 'Cabkit' (Cabinet Kit) is a panel that takes the ribbon cable from the DZ11 board (here) and brings it out on more convenient connectors, one for each port (I think sets of 4 screw terminals, 2 for the input loop, 2 for the output loop for each port). -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 21 14:17:01 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:17:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re; What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? Message-ID: <20141121201701.3224618C164@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: drlegendre > I have virtually no idea what any of that means. Clearly because you don't have a UNIBUS PDP-11! :-) Oh well, it was worth a shot (I didn't know). Noel From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 14:29:28 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:29:28 -0600 Subject: Re; What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: References: <20141121191445.32AB118C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Tony, On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 2:15 PM, tony duell wrote: > > OK... > > Unibus is the bus used by older PDP11 computers (...) 'Cabkit' (Cabinet > Kit) is a panel that takes the ribbon cable from the DZ11 board (here) and > brings it > out on more convenient connectors, one for each port (I think sets of 4 > screw terminals, 2 for the > input loop, 2 for the output loop for each port). > > (Edited out for brevity) Sure, I get all that.. but what on Earth does it have to do with the thread topic - which concerns what to look for when acquiring a Model 33 Teletype? All of that info seems peripheral, at best. And no, I don't have +any+ PDP machines or any 'old iron' at all, for that matter. Though again, I don't know how or why that came into the conversation. At some point in the future, it might make some sense - but for now, it's just a big non sequitur. *Shrug* From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 21 14:29:27 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 12:29:27 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <546FA0A7.1030005@sydex.com> On 11/21/2014 11:46 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > I'm looking into getting a bigger Sun box (bigger than my E3000) and after > reading the specs... If I'm really going to do this, I'll need to get some > 220v outlets wired up. (I'm in the US.) Any advice to pass along for this? > I'd much rather listen to other people's surprises than have to rediscover > them on my own. Single-phase distribution is the US is officially 240V. 220V is European (and other places). If you're talking single-phase, it's not a big deal. Lots of people with metal- or woodworking power tools have installed 240V shop wiring. I even have a 50A 240V outlet wired in my own woodshop, just in case I want to glom onto a big welder. For 15-20A service, it's not really much different running wiring for normal 120V service. Where you get into the exotica is 3-phase service. There, you need a cooperating utility and a deep pocketbook. Be prepared to be turned down flat by your utility with the excuse that "We don't distribute 3 phase in your area". There are always phase converters in that case; not cheap either. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 21 14:35:29 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 20:35:29 +0000 Subject: Re; What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: References: <20141121191445.32AB118C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> , Message-ID: > > Sure, I get all that.. but what on Earth does it have to do with the thread > topic - which concerns what to look for when acquiring a Model 33 Teletype? I think we're assuming you are going to connect this ASR33 to something else. ASR33s have a 20mA (or 60mA, link selectable, I think) current loop interface. Not RS232 (OK, I mentioned the Data Dynamics machine that used ASR33 mechanisms, but strictly that's not an ASR33). The most common machine (I think) with a 20mA current loop interface is a Unibus PDP11. Hence all the comments, if you had one of those, you could easily link the ASR33 to it. That said, a quick google search for 'RS232 current loop' (no quotes) throws up a number of commerical units and built-it-yourself schematics to convert the current loop interface to RS232. > All of that info seems peripheral, at best. And no, I don't have +any+ PDP Pun intended? -tony From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Nov 21 14:41:08 2014 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 12:41:08 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141121200333.GB4645@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <20141121200333.GB4645@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <007801d005cb$7bf63f60$73e2be20$@net> > My wife thinks I'm certifiable as well since there couldn't possibly be > anyone else in the world interested in this "junk." Oh, and also that > I'm a "semi-hoarder." Only "semi-"? You have a very understanding wife. Mine has labeled me a hoarder and threatens at least once a week to call in a junk dealer to "clean out the house"! -Ali From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 10:58:11 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:58:11 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546F686C.1090508@bitsavers.org> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F686C.1090508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Witness what happened with Sellam's collection for the past two years. Ah, Sellam! Used to go classic picking with him back when he was still called Sam. Did he exit the vintage scene or something? -j From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 21 10:58:09 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 08:58:09 -0800 Subject: Moving Sale (SF Bay Area, USA) In-Reply-To: References: <20141121061850.GA5566@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <546F6F21.4090003@bitsavers.org> On 11/21/14 8:18 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > Better than having them go to WSW Why do you say that? At least they have a retail space. Most scrappers here now are eBay only, or ship straight to China. Also to let people know, Excess Solutions in Milpitas just moved to somewhere in San Jose, the owner sold the building. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 21 10:59:34 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 08:59:34 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F686C.1090508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <546F6F76.3090407@bitsavers.org> On 11/21/14 8:52 AM, Vlad Stamate wrote: > Oh so that is what I was buying from at De Anza? Yes, and you were video taped doing it by one of Sellam's friends. Hope you smiled for the camera. From scaron at umich.edu Fri Nov 21 11:34:11 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 12:34:11 -0500 Subject: Moving Sale (SF Bay Area, USA) In-Reply-To: <546F6F21.4090003@bitsavers.org> References: <20141121061850.GA5566@loomcom.com> <546F6F21.4090003@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Sorry, I didn't mean to spread hate of WSW; I mean, it's cool they're trying to resell this stuff instead of just melting it down and running it through the shredder, just from my perspective, it's cool if some of this stuff can be redirected before it hits eBay and the retail channel... It is a lot harder to do this in the midwest when you so much more often get caught having to pay retail markup (or bid up an auction) plus shipping on something you'd like, or a part you need to get a box going... Something that was free for pickup in CA or TX or ... I don't mean to make an economic debate of it but unfortunately (yes, unfortunately) not all of us have beaucoup bucks :( Like any smart collector I tried to get on this fifteen, twenty years ago back when this stuff was prevalent and cheap but I've suffered attrition over time for various reasons that I won't discuss... I've had some people help me out big time since I've been back on the list and I'm forever thankful but, you know, I'm still a collector at heart and the itch is never really completely sated and when the call goes out, I'll always be angling to see if I can give some stuff a good home while still being able to pay my bills. So, no; no hate for WSW, but I guess I do want to take a stand against this idea I've seen multiple times in another thread, that you're not a real collector unless you have a bunch of money to throw around and cost is no object. I like to think this is a community of preservationists and that folks are, generally, more interested in seeing that items will go to a good, appreciative home versus just that maximum profit is realized from them... Not that the rich guys aren't good homes, but us working stiffs can have just as much love to give and can be equally "qualified" in terms of being able to maintain the equipment and appreciate it intellectually. Best, Sean On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/21/14 8:18 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> Better than having them go to WSW >> > > Why do you say that? At least they have a retail space. > Most scrappers here now are eBay only, or ship straight to China. > > Also to let people know, Excess Solutions in Milpitas just moved to > somewhere in San Jose, the owner sold the building. > > > > > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 12:13:12 2014 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:13:12 -0500 Subject: RX01 Floppies Message-ID: Where can I get RX01 SSSD 8" floppies? Used are fine. -- Michael Thompson From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Nov 21 13:10:31 2014 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:10:31 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <01a701d005b5$12a61c80$37f25580$@com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F7A9B.5030701@jwsss.com> <01a701d005b5$12a61c80$37f25580$@com> Message-ID: <20141121111031.43457b9d@asrock.bcwi.net> On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 12:00:44 -0600 "Electronics Plus" wrote: > The scrappers don't care what model it is, or how many boards, or if > it has a tape drive. It weighs xxx pounds, and is thus worth xxx $$ > to them. So, yes, you could conceivably pick up a $2000 gizmo for > $200. > > I am collecting a list of the brands and models, but so far, very few > pics have been sent my way. Even something from an ad on the > internet is fine. The scrappers are very visual, and a dark brown > cabinet will yield lots of results. Lots of switches and lights is > cool, but they don't turn them on (I don't think u want them to), and > the $8 sorters barely speak English, and don't know what anything > is. The more visual we can be, the better our chances. --snip-- Not all scrappers and brokers are insensitive to the preservation of vintage gear. For instance, I've spent a lot of time over the years with the management and employees of Weirdstuff Warehouse (WS) here in Silicon Valley helping them see the value in preserving vintage gear. As a result, they have donated SMS cards and paper to the 1401 Team at the Computer History Museum. They have also donated microfiche and other artifacts to the CHM's collection. In addition, they almost always call me whenever they find vintage gear. I check it out and post what they find to the Bay Area Classic Computer List (because local pickup is VERY desirable). Sometimes, I post same to this list. But unfortunately folks on this list often make below scrap offers - and in several cases someone has told WS they will buy an item and then balk at having to pay for shipping and handling (which has discouraged WS from wanting to ship anything). As to the employees at WS, when they see me coming, they will say "Lyle, you've got to look at xxx" - and then take me to some item they feel I'd be interested in. I've also taught everyone there NOT to power up anything vintage with out checking with me if it's wise to do so. They are all willing to do this because they value vintage gear and want to see it preserved when possible. Of course, they have to make money. I want them to remain in business and be successful. We collectors must always take that into consideration. Scrappers and brokers have to make money or else they will go away. If we as collectors want them to work with us, we have to make it worth their while and be rational financially for them to continue to work with us. Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 13:26:22 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:26:22 -0800 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > Where can I get RX01 SSSD 8" floppies? > Used are fine. > Is it correct that RX01 format floppies can be created from blank floppies with a standard PC floppy controller (or at least some controllers / motherboards, depending on the controller chip) while RX02 format floppies cannot? From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Nov 21 13:34:12 2014 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:34:12 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546F6F76.3090407@bitsavers.org> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F686C.1090508@bitsavers.org> <546F6F76.3090407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <004901d005c2$22896b90$679c42b0$@net> > > Yes, and you were video taped doing it by one of Sellam's friends. > Hope you smiled for the camera. > To what point Al? I know Sellam got a raw deal on this and I know part of the story (and I am sure some of the story has not been released at all) but what is he going to do? Try to use the tape to get stuff back? -Ali From js at cimmeri.com Fri Nov 21 14:30:31 2014 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:30:31 -0500 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <546FA0E7.6060003@cimmeri.com> On 11/21/2014 2:26 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Michael Thompson > wrote: >> Where can I get RX01 SSSD 8" floppies? >> Used are fine. >> > Is it correct that RX01 format floppies can be created from blank > floppies with a standard PC floppy controller (or at least some > controllers / motherboards, depending on the controller chip) while > RX02 format floppies cannot? > Yes. RX01 (which I have and use) are standard IBM -- straight FM encoding, 128 bytes /sector. - JS. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 21 14:40:15 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 12:40:15 -0800 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <546FA32F.3070102@sydex.com> On 11/21/2014 11:26 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > Is it correct that RX01 format floppies can be created from blank > floppies with a standard PC floppy controller (or at least some > controllers / motherboards, depending on the controller chip) while > RX02 format floppies cannot? Yup. The RX02 ("double density") use a whacky MFM scheme (with some code substitutions) for data with FM sector headers. Not doable at all with a standard PC setup. RX01s are pretty much stock FM. --Chuck From aswood at t-online.de Fri Nov 21 14:45:25 2014 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 21:45:25 +0100 Subject: AW: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1Xrv53-06ib5s0@fwd05.aul.t-online.de> I do have a Convex C3880 requiring three phase 380V/240A, that's approx. 88KW. Requiring 120mm2 cabling. Not quite common for standard home cabling or standard home power input. Fortunately I do have a storage capable of supplying 680KW. To your question - What about to use a diesel power generator? Andreas -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Datum: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 20:46:40 +0100 Von: Todd Killingsworth An: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Hi All - I'm looking into getting a bigger Sun box (bigger than my E3000) and after reading the specs... If I'm really going to do this, I'll need to get some 220v outlets wired up. (I'm in the US.) Any advice to pass along for this? I'd much rather listen to other people's surprises than have to rediscover them on my own. How much of what you collect requires 220v? How many big boxes do you keep running - 24/7 or just turn it on/off as you want to use it? I guess somewhere in the back of my mind, I realized that old machines took lots of power. But do the collectors here wire up their homes and keep machines there? Or do you have another place (old warehouse or somesuch) that already supports multiple 220v hookups? Or do you colo it somewhere? Not yet sure how expensive it would be, but my wife thinks I'm completely certifiable. Todd Killingsworth From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 21 14:47:18 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:47:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Message-ID: <20141121204718.BAFE318C164@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Todd Killingsworth > I realized that old machines took lots of power. But do the collectors > here wire up their homes and keep machines there? Heh, about to join this crew! I'm having the electricians in to put in a whole separate subsidiary panel (the existing ones are all pretty full), and run outlets from that (with those Hubble locking 3-pin sockets). > my wife thinks I'm completely certifiable. That's not the important question, which is 'is she tolerant of your insanity'? :-) > Todd Goodman > My wife thinks I'm certifiable as well since there couldn't possibly be > anyone else in the world interested in this "junk." So subscribe her to CCTalk... :-) > Oh, and also that I'm a "semi-hoarder." Duhhh! > From: Chuck Guzis > Where you get into the exotica is 3-phase service. There, you need a > cooperating utility and a deep pocketbook. Be prepared to be turned > down flat by your utility with the excuse that "We don't distribute 3 > phase in your area". Or they will try and give you what my house has (it came that way, the previous owner was a serious woodworking guy), which is 400A 3-phase service - but it's not really 3 phase. The area has two-phase service, and they hung a small transformer on the pole outside my house and wired it up to produce 3 phases that _will_ run a three-phase motor - but the third phase is like 170V to neutral, not 120V. (I forget the details, a foreman explained it to me once, but I've since forgotten.) So things that try and take three phases and power a bunch of 120V things, with some on each phase, won't work. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 21 14:49:27 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:49:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re; What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? Message-ID: <20141121204927.7A62318C164@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: drlegendre > Though again, I don't know how or why that came into the conversation. You were asking about RS-232 for a Teletype; I was thinking, bring the mountain to Mohammed (a 20mA interface on the computer), not the other way around. Noel From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 21 14:53:01 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 20:53:01 +0000 Subject: Re; What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: <20141121204927.7A62318C164@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141121204927.7A62318C164@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > You were asking about RS-232 for a Teletype; I was thinking, bring the > mountain to Mohammed (a 20mA interface on the computer), not the other way > around. I have this mental image of using a PDP11/05 or similar with DL11 card (there is a current loop serial inteface on the CPU board set in that machine, so a DL11 for RS232) as an RS232 interface for a Model 33. It would work, I guess, but 'overkill' ;-) [Mind you I did once use a PET 8032 to drive an HPIB plotter from an RS232 port.] -tony From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 14:54:35 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:54:35 -0600 Subject: Re; What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: References: <20141121191445.32AB118C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Pun unavoidable, more or less. So at least we're on the same page so far as RS-232 -> 20mA converters are concerned. I've been looking at that stuff today.. and here's something that seems too easy. Is there any reason that I couldn't pick up a cheap, common RS-232 to TTL converter module (like eBay item 310624019670 - about $5) and connect the TTL side to an opto-isolated transceiver pair like the HCPL-4100 / 4200? The DIY schematics I've seen are essentially RS-232 to TTL converters (using the MAX232 IC) that directly drive the 4100/4200 pair. Like I said, seems too easy.. but why wouldn't it work? On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 2:35 PM, tony duell wrote: > > > > Sure, I get all that.. but what on Earth does it have to do with the > thread > > topic - which concerns what to look for when acquiring a Model 33 > Teletype? > > I think we're assuming you are going to connect this ASR33 to something > else. > ASR33s have a 20mA (or 60mA, link selectable, I think) current loop > interface. Not > RS232 (OK, I mentioned the Data Dynamics machine that used ASR33 > mechanisms, > but strictly that's not an ASR33). The most common machine (I think) with > a 20mA > current loop interface is a Unibus PDP11. Hence all the comments, if you > had > one of those, you could easily link the ASR33 to it. > > That said, a quick google search for 'RS232 current loop' (no quotes) > throws up > a number of commerical units and built-it-yourself schematics to convert > the current > loop interface to RS232. > > > All of that info seems peripheral, at best. And no, I don't have +any+ > PDP > > Pun intended? > > -tony > From tsg at bonedaddy.net Fri Nov 21 14:55:05 2014 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:55:05 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <007801d005cb$7bf63f60$73e2be20$@net> References: <20141121200333.GB4645@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <007801d005cb$7bf63f60$73e2be20$@net> Message-ID: <20141121205505.GC7604@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Ali [141121 15:41]: > > My wife thinks I'm certifiable as well since there couldn't possibly be > > anyone else in the world interested in this "junk." Oh, and also that > > I'm a "semi-hoarder." > > Only "semi-"? You have a very understanding wife. Mine has labeled me a > hoarder and threatens at least once a week to call in a junk dealer to > "clean out the house"! > > -Ali She is very understanding. There are wire racks in the kitchen with vintage stuff on them as well as vintage computer equipment spread out over the kitchen table (for more than three years) so that we can't use the table. And best of all, she only threatens to leave every month or so now. :-) Todd From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 21 14:55:22 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 20:55:22 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <546FA0A7.1030005@sydex.com> References: , <546FA0A7.1030005@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Where you get into the exotica is 3-phase service. There, you need a > cooperating utility and a deep pocketbook. Be prepared to be turned > down flat by your utility with the excuse that "We don't distribute 3 > phase in your area". A friend of mine who collects machine tools (!) was getting fed up with the 3 phase converter. So he called his 'energy supplier' to ask about a 3 phase supply. The first question he was asked is priceless 'Are you asking about 3 phase electricity or 3 phase gas?' -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 21 14:57:47 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:57:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX01 Floppies Message-ID: <20141121205747.C4B3F18C169@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > On 11/21/2014 2:26 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Is it correct that RX01 format floppies can be created from blank > floppies with a standard PC floppy controller (or at least some > controllers / motherboards, depending on the controller chip) while > RX02 format floppies cannot? My understanding (perhaps incorrect, if so, someone please correct me) is that the wart-level-detail answer to this question is that '_blank_ RX02 floppies can be created on anything that can create RX01 floppies', but that RX02 floppies _with data on them_ can only be created on RX02 drives. I.e. an RX02 is fed RX01 floppies, which it then writes in the unique-to-DEC double density RX02 format. (As Chuck explained, the _headers_ are in the standard IBM form, but the _data_ part of the sectors is written in a DEC-specific double-density format.) Noel From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 21 14:59:12 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 20:59:12 +0000 Subject: Re; What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: References: <20141121191445.32AB118C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> , Message-ID: > So at least we're on the same page so far as RS-232 -> 20mA converters are > concerned. I've been looking at that stuff today.. and here's something > that seems too easy. > > Is there any reason that I couldn't pick up a cheap, common RS-232 to TTL > converter module (like eBay item 310624019670 - about $5) and connect the > TTL side to an opto-isolated transceiver pair like the HCPL-4100 / 4200? > The DIY schematics I've seen are essentially RS-232 to TTL converters > (using the MAX232 IC) that directly drive the 4100/4200 pair. > > Like I said, seems too easy.. but why wouldn't it work? I suspect that most, if not all, of those RS232-TTL converters are just a MAX232 + the necessary capacitors, or something very similar. Of course I've not tried it but I can see no reason why it wouldn't work. On the other hand, I can see no reason not to just buy the MAX232 chip, since you'll have to mount and solder up the optoisolators and associated components anyway. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 21 15:04:58 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 21:04:58 +0000 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <20141121205747.C4B3F18C169@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141121205747.C4B3F18C169@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > My understanding (perhaps incorrect, if so, someone please correct me) is that > the wart-level-detail answer to this question is that '_blank_ RX02 floppies > can be created on anything that can create RX01 floppies', but that RX02 > floppies _with data on them_ can only be created on RX02 drives. I.e. an RX02 > is fed RX01 floppies, which it then writes in the unique-to-DEC double density > RX02 format. (As Chuck explained, the _headers_ are in the standard IBM form, > but the _data_ part of the sectors is written in a DEC-specific double-density > format.) Almost, at least to the user. An RX02 drive can reformat an RX01 disk as RX02. What it can't do is format a blank disk. So if you make an RX01 formatted disk (essentially possible on any machine with 8" drives that supports an FM (single density) format, then the RX02 can turn it into an RX02 disk. Incidentally, there were Qbus cards (I have never seen a Unibus one) to handle RX02 disks using normal 8" (Shugart 800, etc) drives. Some of those I think could format a totally blank disk. -tony From alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net Fri Nov 21 15:06:30 2014 From: alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net (Alex McWhirter) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:06:30 -0500 Subject: 5.25" SCSI Drives In-Reply-To: References: <201411181540.KAA13738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <546C4752.8050203@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <75F7DE3B-A239-4A53-9C7D-1881483508D0@mojovapes.net> Sorry for the late replies, works been tying me up lately. Ok so here's what I have. 12x ST42400ND 50 pin 12x ST410800WD 68 pin They are all differential SCSI They were pulled from a Sun E6K that was functioning when received but there was no OS on the drives so I could not fully test then. If you are interested, send me an email personally with the subject "E6K Drives". The drives are free if you can arrange shipping or pick them up. I am located in Dayton, Ohio. I can only guarantee that they power on and spin up. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 20, 2014, at 11:21 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 12:31 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> Am 18.11.14 16:40, schrieb Mouse: >>> 5.25" 68-pin drives? That's quite the novelty > > They were quite common, actually. Obviously >4 orders of magnitude less so now. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 21 15:12:02 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:12:02 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F7A9B.5030701@jwsss.com> <01a701d005b5$12a61c80$37f25580$@com> Message-ID: <546FAAA2.6020508@jwsss.com> On 11/21/2014 11:55 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I am collecting a list of the brands and models, but so far, very few pics have been sent my way. Even something from an ad on the internet is fine. The scrappers are very visual, and a dark brown cabinet will yield lots of results. Lots of switches and lights is cool, but they don't turn them on (I don't think u want them to), and the $8 sorters barely speak English, and don't know what anything is. The more visual we can be, the better our chances. > The IBM 3880 is a pretty generic looking late-1970s/1980s box: > > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_PH3380A.html > > Many interesting IBM look pretty much just like this. The colors may > change, the black control panel may differ, but the ends are almost > always white. Anything that looks like this is probably of interest. > > -- > Will > > that is it. 3180 == 3880. I was after a storage director. Also some of the 3375's had storage directors in the A unit and though they are CKD, they are desirable with small data centers. The most desirable air cooled of course was the 4361, which had the storage director for 3370's. Cindy said don't say "pizza box" but specify sparc 5. That is equivalent to specifying these numbers, but I'll get her photos off the IBM site if that is what she needs. I'm only putting this out because these seem to still be worming their way out from somewhere to the scrappers before they get to collectors either your whales, or us. If this guy wants to be nice I'll supply what it takes. He is quoted as saying he is getting these sorts of boxes regularly, so I'll ante up some info. Thanks for the update, Will. Jim From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Nov 21 15:16:14 2014 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:16:14 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <1Xrv53-06ib5s0@fwd05.aul.t-online.de> References: <1Xrv53-06ib5s0@fwd05.aul.t-online.de> Message-ID: On 21 Nov 2014, at 12:45, aswood at t-online.de wrote: > To your question - What about to use a diesel power generator? I have a 60KW 12-lead reconnectable Diesel generator that I?ve been know to use when I need three phase. As for heavy single phase, my wife pretty much expects that every outbuilding will get a 200A sub panel, since we (and the kids) all seem to have hobbies that occasionally require 50A at 240V (such as the cone-ten kiln that the daughter recently received for her tenth birthday). -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 21 15:15:55 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:15:55 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <005801d005c5$e68a1690$b39e43b0$@net> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F63D5.9090900@cimmeri.com> <005801d005c5$e68a1690$b39e43b0$@net> Message-ID: <546FAB8B.8040108@jwsss.com> On 11/21/2014 12:01 PM, Ali wrote: >> When they sell to the mill, they will certainly do better than that. >> >> That is the thing many collector do not get - in order to win a >> scrapper over, you have to beat what *he* will get for the scrap, not >> what he will pay for it. And the problem is those numbers will often be >> a big mystery. It will vary greatly on a per mill, per deal, per phase >> of the moon basis. > Well to me this sounds like a no brainer. The scrapper needs to weigh items post a picture of the item with a price (say what he thinks he will get at the mill plus 15% for his troubles). Everyone is a winner (items saved from scrap and the scrapper makes good money). Anything else is a fishing expedition to see if he can get $4000 for an item a mill will pay $200 for. > > -Ali It might seem like that, but the scrappers are probably getting in 40 or 50' trailers full of stuff, so they don't have time to admire anything that can just be handled like any other bulk scrap. He is probably paying dearly for the space he operates in, so every 4 x 5' space he wasted storing something so we can do the old soft shoe and low ball him is a lot of space he can't store crap to sort, to get the trailers empty for the next. The smaller facilities I go to here are all probably 50000 sf and though the owners and others that can loaf go thru and pull stuff, they are all young enough they are looking for Ataries and not IBM mainframes. Jim From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 21 15:16:51 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:16:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX01 Floppies Message-ID: <20141121211651.9951018C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: tony duell >> the wart-level-detail answer to this question is that '_blank_ RX02 >> floppies can be created on anything that can create RX01 floppies' Sorry, I was slightly imprecise - I guess I should have said '_blank_ floppies that an RX02 can use to write double-density RX02 floppies can be created on anything that can create RX01 floppies'. But the bottom line is the one I gave: blank floppies which one can use in an RX02 can be created on anything that can make RX01 floppies. > An RX02 drive can reformat an RX01 disk as RX02. Right, that was what I meant with: > an RX02 is fed RX01 floppies, which it then writes in the unique-to-DEC > double density RX02 format If anyone wants to see the gory details, "RX02 Floppy Disk System User Guide" (EK-RX02-UG-001) has them on pg. 4-41, "4.3.3.5 Set Media Density (100)". Sections 1.5.2 ("Recording Scheme") and 1.5.3 ("Logical Format") give the technical details of the floppy content in quite complete form. Noel From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 15:20:25 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:20:25 -0600 Subject: Re; What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: References: <20141121191445.32AB118C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Tony & All, On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 2:59 PM, tony duell wrote: > > I suspect that most, if not all, of those RS232-TTL converters are just > a MAX232 + the necessary capacitors, or something very similar. > The one I linked to seems to actually use an Atmel microcontroller that's emulating the MAX232.. else I don't know why there would need to be a uC chip on the board. I mean to say, the MAX232 is effectively a one-chip 232 to TTL converter solution, eh? Why would they need a micro to supplement it? > Of course I've not tried it but I can see no reason why it wouldn't work. > On the other hand, I can see no reason not to just buy the MAX232 chip, > since you'll have to mount and solder up the optoisolators and associated > components anyway. > > Yeah, pretty much. I went ahead and ordered 5pcs from Tayda Electronics (via eBay). $2.29 including shipping.. Now about the optos.. do we really +need+ to use the HCPL 4100/4200 for this application? Wouldn't other, more generic optos serve the same roles? I realize that the 4100/4200 are high-performance parts, designed to handle relatively high data rates - but at only 110 baud, I'd think just about any opto with adequate light / dark resistances would be OK. Then again, I've never played with this stuff.. might be completely wrong. But I ask, as I already have a bunch of optos sitting in a drawer. ;-) From radiotest at juno.com Fri Nov 21 15:18:57 2014 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:18:57 -0500 Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: References: <20141121191445.32AB118C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20141121160506.03d5da68@juno.com> At 02:58 PM 11/21/2014, drlegendre wrote: >I have virtually no idea what any of that means. =/ The 20 mA current interface was the standard current loop interface for Teletypes such as the ASR-33 sometimes used as consoles for DEC minis. I used them for a number of years on a couple of pdp8/m systems that had ASR-33s as consoles, and also took care of many 20 mA loops used with other Teletype models when I worked as an Associated Press technician in the early 1980s. AP used Lenkurt data sets to receive data from analog telco loops and convert it to current loops for teletypes. Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 21 15:21:10 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:21:10 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <546FACC6.6020307@jwsss.com> On 11/21/2014 11:46 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > Not yet sure how expensive it would be, but my wife thinks I'm completely > certifiable. > > Todd Killingsworth I just paid about $1500 to have circuits put in because I'd been lazy and was using house wiring for all my 110v stuff. i have a former wet bar room converted to use, and put in 4 20 amp circuits. Also had to have the box replaced for the trailer because it had no empty breakers. Result now is that a number of other circuits don't blow anymore that used to, and I know what is between the post outside the trailer and all my equipment as far as copper. 220 isn't any big deal, if you have the room for the breaker, probably 300 bucks will get any licensed electrician to put in the line, breaker and outlet. But if you are converting a virgin area, I'd pull two 110's and the 220 at least for a small setup. I have an old mobile home that I know has romex in the walls, so it is not as bad as some of these trailers. But I found from blowing circuits that in the 45 foot run of the trailer if you drew a lengthwise line down any approximate area you could put in a wall socket, all went dark at once. Now I've got several points with power the length of the room where my servers are. thanks Jim PS I really love my wifey. From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 21 15:23:47 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:23:47 -0800 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <20141121205747.C4B3F18C169@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141121205747.C4B3F18C169@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <546FAD63.7060906@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-21 12:57, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > On 11/21/2014 2:26 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > > Is it correct that RX01 format floppies can be created from blank > > floppies with a standard PC floppy controller (or at least some > > controllers / motherboards, depending on the controller chip) while > > RX02 format floppies cannot? > > My understanding (perhaps incorrect, if so, someone please correct me) is that > the wart-level-detail answer to this question is that '_blank_ RX02 floppies > can be created on anything that can create RX01 floppies', but that RX02 > floppies _with data on them_ can only be created on RX02 drives. I.e. an RX02 > is fed RX01 floppies, which it then writes in the unique-to-DEC double density > RX02 format. (As Chuck explained, the _headers_ are in the standard IBM form, > but the _data_ part of the sectors is written in a DEC-specific double-density > format.) Pretty much correct. You could also say that there is no RX02 format. You cannot format a floppy in RX02 format. An RX02 floppy is formatted the same way as an RX01. When an RX02 drive want to do double density, it just writes a bit in the sector header saying that this sector is in double density, and the actual data part of the sector is written in double density. The format of the floppy as such is still the same as an RX01. And of course, an RX02 reading that sector will notice the bit in the header saying that it is double density, and will read the actual data part of the sector in double density mode. So, any floppy that you use in an RX01 or RX02 is *always* formatted as an RX01. Which is the same as the original IBM SD SS 128 bytes per sector format. Only an RX02 can actually do the DEC double density format as done by the RX02. You cannot read that floppy on other drivers with other controllers generally, since they aren't actually capable of switching between different densities in the middle of a sector. But the RX02 is not a separate format as far as the floppy goes. It's just the data in each sector so written that is "special". Johnny From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 15:26:02 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:26:02 -0600 Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20141121160506.03d5da68@juno.com> References: <20141121191445.32AB118C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7.0.1.0.2.20141121160506.03d5da68@juno.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 02:58 PM 11/21/2014, drlegendre wrote: > > >I have virtually no idea what any of that means. =/ > > The 20 mA current interface was the standard current loop interface for > Teletypes such as the ASR-33 sometimes used as consoles for DEC minis. Yep - got it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 21 15:28:48 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 21:28:48 +0000 Subject: Re; What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: References: <20141121191445.32AB118C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> , Message-ID: > > > > I suspect that most, if not all, of those RS232-TTL converters are just > > a MAX232 + the necessary capacitors, or something very similar. > > > > The one I linked to seems to actually use an Atmel microcontroller that's > emulating the MAX232.. else I don't know why there would need to be a uC > chip on the board. > > I mean to say, the MAX232 is effectively a one-chip 232 to TTL converter > solution, eh? Why would they need a micro to supplement it? Possibly data format or baud rate translation. Or perhaps the TTL interface is not simply the asynchronous serial signals, but something like SPI. In any case you don't want it here. [..] > Now about the optos.. do we really +need+ to use the HCPL 4100/4200 for > this application? Wouldn't other, more generic optos serve the same roles? > I realize that the 4100/4200 are high-performance parts, designed to handle > relatively high data rates - but at only 110 baud, I'd think just about any > opto with adequate light / dark resistances would be OK. > > Then again, I've never played with this stuff.. might be completely wrong. > But I ask, as I already have a bunch of optos sitting in a drawer. ;-) Classic computers with current loop interfaces often opto-isolated them using 'any old optoisolator' As you said, it's only 110 baud, so speed is not an issue The current-loop -> RS232 side is quite easy, with 20mA available just about any optoisolator will work (you may even need to shunt some of the current round the LED, check the maximum If of the LED in the device you are using). The RS232 -> current loop side might be a little more work, in some cases the optoisolator's phototransistor won't pass 20mA. You may need to add an external transistor (essentially a darlington pair circuit). -tony From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 15:40:59 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:40:59 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F686C.1090508@bitsavers.org> <90386ED6FE1542458ED4AA275C1A6252@310e2> Message-ID: <6E3586F408FE48ABAC1805405E09DC6B@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 2:20 PM Subject: Re: mainframes and other stuff >> Sellam should have simply paid his rent instead of jerking his landlord >> around for month after month with missed deadlines, broken promises, a >> law suit etc. >> >> Period. > > Maybe, just maybe, there was a whole lot more to it than that? Sellam no > doubt made his share of mistakes, but his former landlord and the scrap > dealer he contracted were absolutely in the wrong with what they did. > Period. That landlord thought Sellam's gear was worth huge amounts of > money, got greedy, and began looking for ways to take stuff for his own > financial gain. ------------- I read all the stuff that Sellam posted; even with his obvious bias it still comes down to he should have paid the rent and not jerked the landlord around. > If everyone refused to do business with people and companies like that > scrapper, it would do a lot to discourage them or someone else like them > from attempting to take advantage of others in the future. -------------- Right, and make sure that it all gets crushed. Like I said, I don't get this kind of thinking, but that's just me. EOF From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 21 14:44:49 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 20:44:49 +0000 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <546FA32F.3070102@sydex.com> References: , <546FA32F.3070102@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > > Is it correct that RX01 format floppies can be created from blank > > floppies with a standard PC floppy controller (or at least some > > controllers / motherboards, depending on the controller chip) while > > RX02 format floppies cannot? > > Yup. The RX02 ("double density") use a whacky MFM scheme (with some > code substitutions) for data with FM sector headers. Not doable at all > with a standard PC setup. RX01s are pretty much stock FM. I seem to remember that if you format an 8" floppy, single sided, single density 'IBM3740 format' (the standard one, 77 tracks, 26 sectors/track, 128 bytes/sector) then at least an RX02, and probably an RX01 can be convinced to put the DEC type directory, etc. on it. An RX02 can re-format it as MMFM too. Most CP/M machines with 8" drives can do the intial format -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 15:08:34 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:08:34 -0800 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <546FA32F.3070102@sydex.com> References: <546FA32F.3070102@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/21/2014 11:26 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> Is it correct that RX01 format floppies can be created from blank >> floppies with a standard PC floppy controller (or at least some >> controllers / motherboards, depending on the controller chip) while >> RX02 format floppies cannot? > > > Yup. The RX02 ("double density") use a whacky MFM scheme (with some code > substitutions) for data with FM sector headers. Not doable at all with a > standard PC setup. RX01s are pretty much stock FM. > So is the original poster (Michael) really looking for already formatted RX01 floppies, or will blank 8-inch single sided floppies do just as well? Probably easier to find generic floppies than already formatted RX01 floppies. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 21 15:57:13 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:57:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re; What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: <20141121191445.32AB118C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141121191445.32AB118C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20141121135208.B85217@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 21 Nov 2014, Noel Chiappa wrote: > If you have a working UNIBUS PDP-11, there are still 20mA serial interfaces > avalable for it. If you have an ISA bus PC, there were 20mA serial interfaces available for it. The original IBM "Asynchronous Adapter" could be jumpered for 20mA. While I don't have any handy right now (maybe in the shed?), they were rather readily available. IBM gave away one free with every 5160 around here! That was probably because they had more of them than could be reasonably expected to sell before they dissolved, and because the 5160 had one slot that IBM did not want people using for anything else, and the easiest way to prevent its use was to plug it up with a serial card. The software to read a character on the serial card (20mA) and send it out through another serial port (RS232) is reasonably trivial. Therefore, a 5160 (or any other PC with ISA bus) could be converted into a 20mA to RS232 converter at negligible cost. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Nov 21 16:02:41 2014 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:02:41 -0800 Subject: What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: <54F3D199-E608-4049-9CD5-EB408DABD3AD@cs.ubc.ca> References: <54F3D199-E608-4049-9CD5-EB408DABD3AD@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <546FB681.6030808@shiresoft.com> On 11/20/14 11:24 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2014-Nov-20, at 10:53 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> I've gone off the Deep End and now I just have to re-have a Teletype model >> 33.. > ... > >> And one more - how do you differentiate a 20mA current-loop model from a >> 'standard' RS-232 model? Can you tell from the rear panel, or do you need >> to go under the hood? > Model 33's are native/standard 20mA current-loop. > > I've never seen a manufacturer-original built-in RS-232 adapter for them, at least not inside the 33 proper (the keyboard-printer unit). I have a KSR-33 that is native RS-232. ;-) I was *really* surprised that it was RS-232 vs 20ma current-loop. TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 21 16:23:48 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:23:48 -0800 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <546FAD63.7060906@update.uu.se> References: <20141121205747.C4B3F18C169@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <546FAD63.7060906@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <546FBB74.8040606@sydex.com> On 11/21/2014 01:23 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Only an RX02 can actually do the DEC double density format as done by > the RX02. You cannot read that floppy on other drivers with other > controllers generally, since they aren't actually capable of switching > between different densities in the middle of a sector. Another good reason to have a Catweasel controller in your stable of PC accessory cards. I think that Tim Mann(?) wrote a package to handle the RX02 DEC double-density format. At least I recall using a set of CW utilities to dupe some RX02 double-density floppies. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 16:29:21 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:29:21 -0600 Subject: Re; What to look for in a Model 33 Teletype - a newb's buyer's guide? In-Reply-To: <20141121135208.B85217@shell.lmi.net> References: <20141121191445.32AB118C168@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141121135208.B85217@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Howdy, On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 3:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Therefore, a 5160 (or any other PC with ISA bus) could be converted into a > 20mA to RS232 converter at negligible cost. > Thanks for that info, Fred - but we're really off-track, here.. ;-) This all relates to (what now seems to be) my inevitable future acquisition of a Model 33 Teletype - and how to deal with issues such as making +it+ talk the RS-232 talk. Not only do I not actually have the 33 yet, but I don't even have a (functional) serial card for my Altair 8800. If I can figure out how to use my existing serial card, it may be a moot point, as it seems my card might actually support the 20mA standard. But if I end up with an RS-232 only board, then I want to be at least semi-prepared to work with it; armed with the knowledge & documentation, if not the hardware as well. (I find that if I don't rush-rush everything, and plan a bit in advance - acquiring what's required as opportunities present themselves, rather than at the last minute, when I +NEED+ to have it - that I tend to spend a whole lot less money, and waste a lot less.) From isking at uw.edu Fri Nov 21 16:34:25 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:34:25 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546F8756.80303@update.uu.se> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F7A9B.5030701@jwsss.com> <01a701d005b5$12a61c80$37f25580$@com> <546F8756.80303@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Not sure we're talking about the same machine. Mine is 30" square on the floor, and about 60" tall. Oh, and about 600 lbs., according to the shipping paperwork. On Nov 21, 2014 10:41 AM, "Johnny Billquist" wrote: > 6000-series VAXen are not really that big or heavy. They're just a single > 22" cabinet. > > Come back when you have an 86x0 or a 9000... :-) > > (Or any PDP-10 except a KS.) > > Johnny > > On 2014-11-21 10:11, Ian S. King wrote: > >> Forklift? I generally rely on a large group of friends or a small group >> of >> large friends. Two of us moved my VAX 6600. >> On Nov 21, 2014 10:01 AM, "Electronics Plus" wrote: >> >> The scrappers don't care what model it is, or how many boards, or if it >>> has a tape drive. >>> It weighs xxx pounds, and is thus worth xxx $$ to them. >>> So, yes, you could conceivably pick up a $2000 gizmo for $200. >>> >>> I am collecting a list of the brands and models, but so far, very few >>> pics >>> have been sent my way. Even something from an ad on the internet is >>> fine. >>> The scrappers are very visual, and a dark brown cabinet will yield lots >>> of >>> results. Lots of switches and lights is cool, but they don't turn them >>> on >>> (I don't think u want them to), and the $8 sorters barely speak English, >>> and don't know what anything is. The more visual we can be, the better >>> our >>> chances. >>> >>> Cindy >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>> jwsmobile >>> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 11:47 AM >>> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and >>> Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: mainframes and other stuff >>> >>> >>> On 11/21/2014 6:54 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >>>> Hmmm.... >>>> >>>> >From the offers I am seeing here - the scrapper is just going to >>>> laugh, then ignore further offers. Game over. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Will >>>> >>> >>> My list was posted just because she asked for specifics. I did pay this >>> to a very basic scrapper and if you have an update, I posted my best >>> recollection of the mass. Please update it if you all want to make a >>> contribution. >>> >>> The list I gave covers the most likely to be found air-cooled mainframes. >>> >>> I paid the price of about 2 to 3 x steel scrap for all of my data center. >>> It still lives on in the possession of a list member or 2. >>> >>> people post 3420's for 4000 bucks. No scrapper is going to get that. >>> If he wants to admire the scrap in his warehouse till someone might pay >>> that for it, then it will be crap by the time the buyer gets to it. >>> >>> As sold by the top of the thread, Cindy suggested the person was smashing >>> this up and wanted specifics. >>> >>> Add them please. It has been 30 years since I bought this, and I don't >>> know what the price differential is, you seem to, so contribute it. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2014.0.4794 / Virus Database: 4189/8607 - Release Date: 11/21/14 >>> >>> >>> > From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Nov 21 16:55:46 2014 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:55:46 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546FAB8B.8040108@jwsss.com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F63D5.9090900@cimmeri.com> <005801d005c5$e68a1690$b39e43b0$@net> <546FAB8B.8040108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <008901d005de$4c1f1b50$e45d51f0$@net> > It might seem like that, but the scrappers are probably getting in 40 > or 50' trailers full of stuff, so they don't have time to admire > anything that can just be handled like any other bulk scrap. He is > probably paying dearly for the space he operates in, so every 4 x 5' > space he wasted storing something so we can do the old soft shoe and > low ball him is a lot of space he can't store crap to sort, to get the > trailers empty for the next. Jim, I am not sure how what I proposed goes against what you said. There is no need to "admire" but they have to sort if they want to sell to anyone else but the mill (or allow us to pick and paw through their stuff in person or virtually). The seller in the OP is willing to sort. I am proposing a simplification, for example: We give him a list of brands: IBM, CDC, Sun, SGI, Univac, whatever. If he sees one of these he puts it aside, weighs it or eyeballs the weight, take a picture with a price. The item stays available until the next shipment to the mill, China, or wherever he sends his scraps for processing. Price is firm and relatively fair because it is based on what he would get for it at the mill with a bit of a mark up. As others have pointed out offering anything less than the scrap value is a waste of everyone's time. There is no soft shoe and no back and forth. You see the inventory and you can buy or not. Plus his space is not occupied in hope of a sale since items will be going out on the same schedule as if they were never put on display. I am by no means an expert in scrapping and wish as hell there were scrappers that were easily accessible in LA. I'd be there once a week just to see what has come in. However, a sale is a sale no matter the commodity and the adversarial process follows the same basic guidelines and rules. The only reason to ask for specific models, with the buyers offering prices, is to see what has intrinsic value significantly above scrap and to hold on to those items, or to shop them around, for the best profit possible. If the interest is in making money while doing a good deed what I propose achieves that and stays fair to both parties. Just my two, potentially worthless, cents ;) -Ali p.s. Yes there is a third possibility that he is daily getting 1 or 2 50' containers of Univacs so he would have to put a ton of stuff aside so he is asking for specific models to help him sort. Honestly, though I doubt he has that much stuff of interest coming in daily. From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Nov 21 17:00:28 2014 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:00:28 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <546FC40C.3010205@shiresoft.com> My wife thinks I'm certifiable too. ;-) When we were looking for our current house, one of the requirements was that there was a place for my "stuff". The place that we found has a 1400 sqft shop as a separate building. However, it needed work to be suitable for all of my classic computer stuff. It needed a significant power upgrade (now has 200A @ 220v) which required a 400' trench from the pole and 5ton AC to keep things cool. The electricians put in *many* 30A 120v and 30A 220v circuits (there are 2 panels that are *full*). ;-) It wasn't cheap but now all my stuff is close by and can be run when I get the desire. ;-) TTFN - Guy On 11/21/14 11:46 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > Hi All - > > I'm looking into getting a bigger Sun box (bigger than my E3000) and after > reading the specs... If I'm really going to do this, I'll need to get some > 220v outlets wired up. (I'm in the US.) Any advice to pass along for this? > I'd much rather listen to other people's surprises than have to rediscover > them on my own. > > How much of what you collect requires 220v? How many big boxes do you keep > running - 24/7 or just turn it on/off as you want to use it? > > I guess somewhere in the back of my mind, I realized that old machines > took lots of power. But do the collectors here wire up their homes and > keep machines there? Or do you have another place (old warehouse or > somesuch) that already supports multiple 220v hookups? Or do you colo it > somewhere? > > Not yet sure how expensive it would be, but my wife thinks I'm completely > certifiable. > > Todd Killingsworth From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 21 17:18:46 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:18:46 -0800 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: <546EE8E8.6000604@shiresoft.com> References: <546EDE4D.10205@shiresoft.com> <546EE8E8.6000604@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 2014-Nov-20, at 11:25 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On 11/20/14 11:10 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2014-Nov-20, at 10:40 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>>> With the configuration I have (assume I can get 32K words of core, and have the I/O cards >>>>> I listed) what can I run on it? >>>> Aside from blinkenlight programs, in the not-to-distant future there should be a stand-alone version of HP BASIC available. A friend and I are working on assembling it from source. (There are probably old binaries out there somewhere but I haven't obtained one). >>>> >>> I have the binary tape image for HP BASIC somewhere other than in the core of my HP2116. The source is up on bitsavers scanned (and OCR'd) from a listing that I have had since 1971. >> Indeed, that's the source we're working from (we spoke of this on the list a few weeks ago). >> >> I've actually extracted (an almost complete) machine code / binary image from the assembly output listings you provided on bitsavers, but it's more interesting to fulfil a complete assembly from the source, so we're waiting for that before trying to load & run. > I have a cross assembler for the 21xx written in 'C' (I didn't write it) but I don't recall where I got it from. :-( It produces an absolute binary image that is suitable for loading using the binary loader. OK, so 'recent' assembly has already been done - not surprising. We had a new assembler for the 9830 and figured it would be minor to (back-)convert it for the 21xx. It hasn't been as straightforward as anticipated however, due to the vagaries of the original HP assembler syntax. > There should be the BASIC tape images on bitsavers. There are no binaries in the directory with the BASIC source, however it appears the Moffat archive is now on bitsavers and there appears to be a binary there for a version of the interpreter and PBS, along with lots of other early stuff to investigate. I had found the Moffat pages years ago when they were at his own site, before they were on bitsavers, but as I recall the binaries did not download transparently at that time, that's why I was looking at assembling the source at this time. (Your) source for BASIC is in the 'pdf' section of bitsavers, beside the hardware manuals: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/2116/BASIC_Jan70/ while the Moffat stuff with binaries is over in the 'software' section: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/HP/paperTapes/JeffM/ I don't know what the story is with the Moffat stuff however, a lot of the file links are dead. Perhaps Al can comment. >>> A bunch of tape images for HP stuff is up on bitsavers (http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection). I also came into a fair number of HP paper tapes but I haven't yet had the time to check them against what's on bitsavers to see if I have anything that isn't already there. >> .. always be interested to hear if there's more period 2116 software, although I'm a little limited as my 2116 currently has only 8KW memory. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Nov 21 17:42:13 2014 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 18:42:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <546FBB74.8040606@sydex.com> References: <20141121205747.C4B3F18C169@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <546FAD63.7060906@update.uu.se> <546FBB74.8040606@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Nov 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/21/2014 01:23 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> Only an RX02 can actually do the DEC double density format as done by >> the RX02. You cannot read that floppy on other drivers with other >> controllers generally, since they aren't actually capable of switching >> between different densities in the middle of a sector. > > Another good reason to have a Catweasel controller in your stable of PC > accessory cards. I think that Tim Mann(?) wrote a package to handle the RX02 > DEC double-density format. At least I recall using a set of CW utilities to > dupe some RX02 double-density floppies. Right, you are: http://tim-mann.org/catweasel.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 17:52:54 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 18:52:54 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <20141121111031.43457b9d@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F7A9B.5030701@jwsss.com> <01a701d005b5$12a61c80$37f25580$@com> <20141121111031.43457b9d@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: > Not all scrappers and brokers are insensitive to the preservation > of vintage gear. That is correct. A few actually have saved "trophies" over the years. > Of course, they have to make money. I want them to remain in business > and be successful. We collectors must always take that into > consideration. Scrappers and brokers have to make money or else they > will go away. If we as collectors want them to work with us, we have > to make it worth their while and be rational financially for them to > continue to work with us. There is a certain joy one has when you get into a scrappers good graces. Prices will come down, they will contact and hold stuff for you, and even sometimes provide leads. I am in good enough with one scrapper that I can go to his place when NOBODY is there and take what I want, then just tell him what I have taken, and we hammer out a deal. Of course, I have blown a few relationships as well... -- Will From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 21 18:28:56 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:28:56 -0800 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: References: , <546FA32F.3070102@sydex.com> Message-ID: <546FD8C8.7090001@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-21 12:44, tony duell wrote: >> >>> Is it correct that RX01 format floppies can be created from blank >>> floppies with a standard PC floppy controller (or at least some >>> controllers / motherboards, depending on the controller chip) while >>> RX02 format floppies cannot? >> >> Yup. The RX02 ("double density") use a whacky MFM scheme (with some >> code substitutions) for data with FM sector headers. Not doable at all >> with a standard PC setup. RX01s are pretty much stock FM. > > I seem to remember that if you format an 8" floppy, single sided, single density > 'IBM3740 format' (the standard one, 77 tracks, 26 sectors/track, 128 bytes/sector) > then at least an RX02, and probably an RX01 can be convinced to put the DEC > type directory, etc. on it. An RX02 can re-format it as MMFM too. Of course. You don't even need to do any convincing. A directory (which differs between different OSes) can always be written. That is just bytes of data on the floppy. > Most CP/M machines with 8" drives can do the intial format I should probably point out that an RX01 or RX02 cannot actually format floppies at all. They need preformatted floppies, in the IBM format. Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 21 18:30:00 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:30:00 -0800 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: References: <546FA32F.3070102@sydex.com> Message-ID: <546FD908.2000700@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-21 13:08, Glen Slick wrote: > On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 11/21/2014 11:26 AM, Glen Slick wrote: >> >>> Is it correct that RX01 format floppies can be created from blank >>> floppies with a standard PC floppy controller (or at least some >>> controllers / motherboards, depending on the controller chip) while >>> RX02 format floppies cannot? >> >> >> Yup. The RX02 ("double density") use a whacky MFM scheme (with some code >> substitutions) for data with FM sector headers. Not doable at all with a >> standard PC setup. RX01s are pretty much stock FM. >> > > So is the original poster (Michael) really looking for already > formatted RX01 floppies, or will blank 8-inch single sided floppies do > just as well? Probably easier to find generic floppies than already > formatted RX01 floppies. True. But if he find blank floppies, or floppies with some other format, then he needs something else than a RX01/RX02 to reformat the floppies before they can be used on an RX01/RX02. Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 21 18:32:49 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:32:49 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F7A9B.5030701@jwsss.com> <01a701d005b5$12a61c80$37f25580$@com> <546F8756.80303@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <546FD9B1.6070105@update.uu.se> I might be remembering wrong, but I thought the cabinet was 22". But it might actually be 30". 600 lbs sounds a little heavy compared to the VAX 6400 machines I have experience from, but it might be in the same neighborhood. Way short of the 8650s I've moved around anyway. Both in size and weight... :-) Seriously. The 6000 series are pretty compact, I think. Johnny On 2014-11-21 14:34, Ian S. King wrote: > Not sure we're talking about the same machine. Mine is 30" square on the > floor, and about 60" tall. Oh, and about 600 lbs., according to the > shipping paperwork. > On Nov 21, 2014 10:41 AM, "Johnny Billquist" wrote: > >> 6000-series VAXen are not really that big or heavy. They're just a single >> 22" cabinet. >> >> Come back when you have an 86x0 or a 9000... :-) >> >> (Or any PDP-10 except a KS.) >> >> Johnny >> >> On 2014-11-21 10:11, Ian S. King wrote: >> >>> Forklift? I generally rely on a large group of friends or a small group >>> of >>> large friends. Two of us moved my VAX 6600. >>> On Nov 21, 2014 10:01 AM, "Electronics Plus" wrote: >>> >>> The scrappers don't care what model it is, or how many boards, or if it >>>> has a tape drive. >>>> It weighs xxx pounds, and is thus worth xxx $$ to them. >>>> So, yes, you could conceivably pick up a $2000 gizmo for $200. >>>> >>>> I am collecting a list of the brands and models, but so far, very few >>>> pics >>>> have been sent my way. Even something from an ad on the internet is >>>> fine. >>>> The scrappers are very visual, and a dark brown cabinet will yield lots >>>> of >>>> results. Lots of switches and lights is cool, but they don't turn them >>>> on >>>> (I don't think u want them to), and the $8 sorters barely speak English, >>>> and don't know what anything is. The more visual we can be, the better >>>> our >>>> chances. >>>> >>>> Cindy >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>>> jwsmobile >>>> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 11:47 AM >>>> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and >>>> Off-Topic Posts >>>> Subject: Re: mainframes and other stuff >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/21/2014 6:54 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hmmm.... >>>>> >>>>> >From the offers I am seeing here - the scrapper is just going to >>>>> laugh, then ignore further offers. Game over. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Will >>>>> >>>> >>>> My list was posted just because she asked for specifics. I did pay this >>>> to a very basic scrapper and if you have an update, I posted my best >>>> recollection of the mass. Please update it if you all want to make a >>>> contribution. >>>> >>>> The list I gave covers the most likely to be found air-cooled mainframes. >>>> >>>> I paid the price of about 2 to 3 x steel scrap for all of my data center. >>>> It still lives on in the possession of a list member or 2. >>>> >>>> people post 3420's for 4000 bucks. No scrapper is going to get that. >>>> If he wants to admire the scrap in his warehouse till someone might pay >>>> that for it, then it will be crap by the time the buyer gets to it. >>>> >>>> As sold by the top of the thread, Cindy suggested the person was smashing >>>> this up and wanted specifics. >>>> >>>> Add them please. It has been 30 years since I bought this, and I don't >>>> know what the price differential is, you seem to, so contribute it. >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 2014.0.4794 / Virus Database: 4189/8607 - Release Date: 11/21/14 >>>> >>>> >>>> >> From scaron at umich.edu Fri Nov 21 18:51:05 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 19:51:05 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <546FC40C.3010205@shiresoft.com> References: <546FC40C.3010205@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: You bet! I have erected walls and built distribution frames, ran plenty of 110 circuits, not to mention all the phone and data cabling. I need to install at least one new 220 circuit soon myself for my old Harris D1200; it might help motivate me to bring it in from the garage, in fact... I think doing basic residential wiring... 110/220 and low voltage voice/data can be fun; it's an excuse to go get some nice Klein tools and sit and work with your hands a little bit. If you have some background with electronics doing this sort of wiring is fairly easy to pick up; you can get nice results. If in doubt, just make it look like the circuit that your dryer is hooked up to, or your oven :) I definitely don't do the super high power stuff; I don't have three-phase power... I mean if you are going for that you are going to need the services of a licensed electrician and the active cooperation of your local utility anyway. Really very little of my collection even requires 220... just the Harris... and only my ROLM CBX requires three phase which simply means it's a re-PSU project someday. Everything else runs comfortably on 110. In general, I don't have much larger than a PDP 11/34 or so. At this level of scale I find things very practical to keep and run. Moving big heavy stuff (and powering it for any material length of time) is expensive!! Everything is either in my basement (preferred) or in a detached garage on my property (big stuff I am digesting... phone switches mostly). I try not to run the vintage stuff continuously; I mean, I use and enjoy it but I recognize that a lot of this stuff is getting on in years and I don't want to run up the POH excessively. Also not power efficient. I moved all my real 24/7/365 infrastructure over to little Intel Atom based shoeboxes I built running Linux some years ago... hard to top 40W for a complete system... beats the Sun Fire V120s I was running before (~100W per) on raw speed, core count, physical memory and storage capacity, any metric you can come up with. It can shake out to real savings on the electric bill and saves the wear and tear on the museum pieces as well. :) Best, Sean On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > My wife thinks I'm certifiable too. ;-) > > When we were looking for our current house, one of the requirements was > that there was a place for my "stuff". The place that we found has a 1400 > sqft shop as a separate building. However, it needed work to be suitable > for all of my classic computer stuff. It needed a significant power > upgrade (now has 200A @ 220v) which required a 400' trench from the pole > and 5ton AC to keep things cool. The electricians put in *many* 30A 120v > and 30A 220v circuits (there are 2 panels that are *full*). ;-) It wasn't > cheap but now all my stuff is close by and can be run when I get the > desire. ;-) > > TTFN - Guy > > > On 11/21/14 11:46 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > >> Hi All - >> >> I'm looking into getting a bigger Sun box (bigger than my E3000) and after >> reading the specs... If I'm really going to do this, I'll need to get >> some >> 220v outlets wired up. (I'm in the US.) Any advice to pass along for this? >> I'd much rather listen to other people's surprises than have to rediscover >> them on my own. >> >> How much of what you collect requires 220v? How many big boxes do you >> keep >> running - 24/7 or just turn it on/off as you want to use it? >> >> I guess somewhere in the back of my mind, I realized that old machines >> took lots of power. But do the collectors here wire up their homes and >> keep machines there? Or do you have another place (old warehouse or >> somesuch) that already supports multiple 220v hookups? Or do you colo it >> somewhere? >> >> Not yet sure how expensive it would be, but my wife thinks I'm completely >> certifiable. >> >> Todd Killingsworth >> > > From isking at uw.edu Fri Nov 21 18:51:53 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:51:53 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546FD9B1.6070105@update.uu.se> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F7A9B.5030701@jwsss.com> <01a701d005b5$12a61c80$37f25580$@com> <546F8756.80303@update.uu.se> <546FD9B1.6070105@update.uu.se> Message-ID: LCM got a machine that I think was an 8650 or at least a sibling and, yes, it was bigger and stinking heavy. (I know, I unloaded it.) But the 6600 is in my basement workshop at home. Compact? Not the word I'd use, but no, it's not a 360/67 or KI-10. On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 4:32 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > I might be remembering wrong, but I thought the cabinet was 22". But it > might actually be 30". > > 600 lbs sounds a little heavy compared to the VAX 6400 machines I have > experience from, but it might be in the same neighborhood. > > Way short of the 8650s I've moved around anyway. Both in size and > weight... :-) > > Seriously. The 6000 series are pretty compact, I think. > > Johnny > > > > On 2014-11-21 14:34, Ian S. King wrote: > >> Not sure we're talking about the same machine. Mine is 30" square on the >> floor, and about 60" tall. Oh, and about 600 lbs., according to the >> shipping paperwork. >> On Nov 21, 2014 10:41 AM, "Johnny Billquist" wrote: >> >> 6000-series VAXen are not really that big or heavy. They're just a single >>> 22" cabinet. >>> >>> Come back when you have an 86x0 or a 9000... :-) >>> >>> (Or any PDP-10 except a KS.) >>> >>> Johnny >>> >>> On 2014-11-21 10:11, Ian S. King wrote: >>> >>> Forklift? I generally rely on a large group of friends or a small group >>>> of >>>> large friends. Two of us moved my VAX 6600. >>>> On Nov 21, 2014 10:01 AM, "Electronics Plus" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> The scrappers don't care what model it is, or how many boards, or if >>>> it >>>> >>>>> has a tape drive. >>>>> It weighs xxx pounds, and is thus worth xxx $$ to them. >>>>> So, yes, you could conceivably pick up a $2000 gizmo for $200. >>>>> >>>>> I am collecting a list of the brands and models, but so far, very few >>>>> pics >>>>> have been sent my way. Even something from an ad on the internet is >>>>> fine. >>>>> The scrappers are very visual, and a dark brown cabinet will yield lots >>>>> of >>>>> results. Lots of switches and lights is cool, but they don't turn them >>>>> on >>>>> (I don't think u want them to), and the $8 sorters barely speak >>>>> English, >>>>> and don't know what anything is. The more visual we can be, the better >>>>> our >>>>> chances. >>>>> >>>>> Cindy >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> jwsmobile >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 11:47 AM >>>>> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and >>>>> Off-Topic Posts >>>>> Subject: Re: mainframes and other stuff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 11/21/2014 6:54 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hmmm.... >>>>>> >>>>>> >From the offers I am seeing here - the scrapper is just going to >>>>>> laugh, then ignore further offers. Game over. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Will >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> My list was posted just because she asked for specifics. I did pay >>>>> this >>>>> to a very basic scrapper and if you have an update, I posted my best >>>>> recollection of the mass. Please update it if you all want to make a >>>>> contribution. >>>>> >>>>> The list I gave covers the most likely to be found air-cooled >>>>> mainframes. >>>>> >>>>> I paid the price of about 2 to 3 x steel scrap for all of my data >>>>> center. >>>>> It still lives on in the possession of a list member or 2. >>>>> >>>>> people post 3420's for 4000 bucks. No scrapper is going to get that. >>>>> If he wants to admire the scrap in his warehouse till someone might pay >>>>> that for it, then it will be crap by the time the buyer gets to it. >>>>> >>>>> As sold by the top of the thread, Cindy suggested the person was >>>>> smashing >>>>> this up and wanted specifics. >>>>> >>>>> Add them please. It has been 30 years since I bought this, and I don't >>>>> know what the price differential is, you seem to, so contribute it. >>>>> >>>>> Jim >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- >>>>> No virus found in this message. >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>> Version: 2014.0.4794 / Virus Database: 4189/8607 - Release Date: >>>>> 11/21/14 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS Ph.D. Candidate The Information School University of Washington An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 21 18:54:52 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:54:52 -0800 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <546FD8C8.7090001@update.uu.se> References: , <546FA32F.3070102@sydex.com> <546FD8C8.7090001@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <546FDEDC.2030709@sydex.com> On 11/21/2014 04:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > I should probably point out that an RX01 or RX02 cannot actually format > floppies at all. They need preformatted floppies, in the IBM format. Rainbow 100 floppies were initially like that--you bought formatted media. But very quickly, someone wrote a formatting program. But you really have to wonder what DEC was thinking... --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Fri Nov 21 18:54:56 2014 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 18:54:56 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <546FA0A7.1030005@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141122005456.GB9850@n0jcf.net> On Friday (11/21/2014 at 08:55PM +0000), tony duell wrote: > > 'Are you asking about 3 phase electricity or 3 phase gas?' We only have 2 phase gas over here in the States. It comes in cylinders and I use it for my grill and my garage heater. Sometimes ice fisherman get ripped off too because they pay for 2 phase but when they get out to the ice house and it's -45F out there, they find out they only got single phase gas. That really stinks. -- Chris Elmquist From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 21 18:57:04 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:57:04 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <546FC40C.3010205@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <546FDF60.9030000@sydex.com> So, who has run 3-phase to power their MG set and HVAC for their mainframe? Extra points for chilled water and even more for a cooling tower for said water. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 19:14:02 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 20:14:02 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <546FDF60.9030000@sydex.com> References: <546FC40C.3010205@shiresoft.com> <546FDF60.9030000@sydex.com> Message-ID: > So, who has run 3-phase to power their MG set and HVAC for their mainframe? > Extra points for chilled water and even more for a cooling tower for said > water. I have 600 Amps of three phase service. I also have motor generator and solid state converters to make about 135 kVA of 400 Hz power, providing everything gets fixed. Oh, and (I think about) a 25 kVA 100/200 Volt transformer, in case of Japanese machines. So there. -- Will From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 21 19:52:01 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 20:52:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX01 Floppies Message-ID: <20141122015201.3654D18C17F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Glen Slick > So is the original poster (Michael) really looking for already > formatted RX01 floppies, or will blank 8-inch single sided floppies do > just as well? Generic _single-density_ floppies are what the RX01/2 needs. So AFAIK any pre-formatted single-density floppy will work in either one. AFAIK, originally, all SSSD floppies came already low-level formatted, but that may have changed later on. (I don't recall if DSSD floppies exist; if they did, the RX0x would probably just ignore the second side.) I'm not sure what you mean by 'blank' - did you mean 'no data/ file system', or 'not low-level formatted'? The thing is that neither RX0x can _low-level format_ floppies (i.e. write sector headers, etc). They _have_ to have pre-formatted floppies. I have this bit set that DEC did it that way with the RX01 since that was the (then minimally-used) IBM standard; if so, probably they just continued that way with the RX02. So you _can_ feed an RX0x xSDD floppies - if you first put them in a machine which will format them to xSSD low-level format. (Which I think someone has previously enquired about here.) Noel From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 21 20:01:48 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 18:01:48 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <008901d005de$4c1f1b50$e45d51f0$@net> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F63D5.9090900@cimmeri.com> <005801d005c5$e68a1690$b39e43b0$@net> <546FAB8B.8040108@jwsss.com> <008901d005de$4c1f1b50$e45d51f0$@net> Message-ID: <546FEE8C.4050205@jwsss.com> On 11/21/2014 2:55 PM, Ali wrote: >> It might seem like that, but the scrappers are probably getting in 40 >> or 50' trailers full of stuff, so they don't have time to admire >> anything that can just be handled like any other bulk scrap. He is >> probably paying dearly for the space he operates in, so every 4 x 5' >> space he wasted storing something so we can do the old soft shoe and >> low ball him is a lot of space he can't store crap to sort, to get the >> trailers empty for the next. > > > Jim, > > I am not sure how what I proposed goes against what you said. There is no need to "admire" but they have to sort if they want to sell to anyone else but the mill (or allow us to pick and paw through their stuff in person or virtually). The seller in the OP is willing to sort. I am proposing a simplification, for example: > > We give him a list of brands: IBM, CDC, Sun, SGI, Univac, whatever. If he sees one of these he puts it aside, weighs it or eyeballs the weight, take a picture with a price. The item stays available until the next shipment to the mill, China, or wherever he sends his scraps for processing. Price is firm and relatively fair because it is based on what he would get for it at the mill with a bit of a mark up. As others have pointed out offering anything less than the scrap value is a waste of everyone's time. My guy was filling two 50' trailers day in the 80's from incoming trucks and scrap runs. The fact that he saved a data center form hallmark was a huge inconvenience. He had an area about 30 x 30 foot on a side full of blue boxes, and due to myself and another guy being advisors to him on how to extract more that metal value, he kept it. But that was a lot of space. If you actually extrapolate that to having a number of these things in his sort area for several days while he does the dance with us, I agree with Will, that they won't do it. They probably have people who they know will pay thousands that they would hold it for, but for what I quoted, which is just to double his metal price, it would mess up his shop. > There is no soft shoe and no back and forth. You see the inventory and you can buy or not. Plus his space is not occupied in hope of a sale since items will be going out on the same schedule as if they were never put on display. He's going to ask people what they want to do, and it will take a couple of days. I suspect these boxes don't stay intact till the end of the shift due to size and bulk > I am by no means an expert in scrapping and wish as hell there were scrappers that were easily accessible in LA. I'd be there once a week just to see what has come in. However, a sale is a sale no matter the commodity and the adversarial process follows the same basic guidelines and rules. It is a sale, but the space and time to screw with us is a real significant cost he doesn't have right now. Here in Southern Ca, they have maybe 20 guys in one shop I know and in the 50000 sf place I would guess 50. They move stuff immediately, and if they don't know what it is there are people with hammers and sawzalls to deal with breaking it into plastic, hi value metals and steel. The items are stored as confetti. > The only reason to ask for specific models, with the buyers offering prices, is to see what has intrinsic value significantly above scrap and to hold on to those items, or to shop them around, for the best profit possible. If the interest is in making money while doing a good deed what I propose achieves that and stays fair to both parties. > > Just my two, potentially worthless, cents ;) Not worthless. I just am also going by about 40 years of seeing these guys, and the have seldom varied. I really hope this guy can clear a space to save stuff and do what is suggested here. I'm making the point that is is more significant to change to save stuff than it is to sort into two or so streams and break it up. The stuff they save is all categorized now, and they can get people to move that stuff off the shelves easier than mainframe or minicomputer crap. > -Ali > > p.s. Yes there is a third possibility that he is daily getting 1 or 2 50' containers of Univacs so he would have to put a ton of stuff aside so he is asking for specific models to help him sort. Honestly, though I doubt he has that much stuff of interest coming in daily. > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 21 20:25:56 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 18:25:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <20141122015201.3654D18C17F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141122015201.3654D18C17F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20141121181948.G91309@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 21 Nov 2014, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Generic _single-density_ floppies are what the RX01/2 needs. So AFAIK any > pre-formatted single-density floppy will work in either one. AFAIK, > originally, all SSSD floppies came already low-level formatted, but that may > have changed later on. Yes. > (I don't recall if DSSD floppies exist; if they did, > the RX0x would probably just ignore the second side.) Unfortunatewly, on 8" disks, the index hole is not in the same place for SS V DS disks. So, "ignoring" the second side isn't feasable. However, you COULD punch an additional set of holes in the jacket to "convert" a DS disk inro a SS disk. > I'm not sure what you mean by 'blank' - did you mean 'no data/ file > system', or 'not low-level formatted'? That does seems to be the issue. 128 bytes per sector FM seems to be the "low level" formatting required, as doable by many other machines. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Nov 21 20:45:58 2014 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 18:45:58 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Message-ID: <32678864.1416624359258.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Just curious: What is your maximum load in kVA when system(s) are running? What is that in $$/hr? -----Original Message----- >From: William Donzelli >Sent: Nov 21, 2014 5:14 PM >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Subject: Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? > >> So, who has run 3-phase to power their MG set and HVAC for their mainframe? >> Extra points for chilled water and even more for a cooling tower for said >> water. > >I have 600 Amps of three phase service. > >I also have motor generator and solid state converters to make about >135 kVA of 400 Hz power, providing everything gets fixed. > >Oh, and (I think about) a 25 kVA 100/200 Volt transformer, in case of >Japanese machines. > >So there. > >-- >Will From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 21 21:07:33 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 21:07:33 -0600 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> On 11/21/2014 01:41 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > 4381 6' box, 900# $1000 > $2000, GOLD. GOLD. GOLD. > > Actually, IBM gear had VERY little gold in them. They figured out how to REALLY minimize the gold content back in the 360 days. The SLT cards (plug-in boards with the components on them) had selectively plated spring contacts with a tiny speck of gold on the contact point. The "boards", ie. backplane sections had gold-plated wire-wrap pins. That was the extent of the gold in the machines. So, a good-sized 360 mainframe had a couple Oz. of gold, total. A number of other makes had FAR more gold, like on DEC flip-chip card edge fingers. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 21 21:12:33 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 21:12:33 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <546FFF21.8040405@pico-systems.com> On 11/21/2014 01:46 PM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > Hi All - > > I'm looking into getting a bigger Sun box (bigger than my E3000) and after > reading the specs... If I'm really going to do this, I'll need to get some > 220v outlets wired up. (I'm in the US.) Any advice to pass along for this? > I'd much rather listen to other people's surprises than have to rediscover > them on my own. > > How much of what you collect requires 220v? How many big boxes do you keep > running - 24/7 or just turn it on/off as you want to use it? > > I have 240 V wired to my computer room. I have a micro VAX that was set up to run off 240 V, built into a big cabinet that was originally a 3rd party memory cabinet for a 370/145. it probably used up $35 of electricity a month when I had it totally tricked out with multiple disk and tape controllers, graphics, etc. That was a long time ago. I finally migrated the last useful app off that system about 7 years ago, which logged environmental readings from the house and displayed them on LCD displays around the house. I did have this system running for 21 years straight. it eventually became somewhat unreliable, cards needed to be reseated every couple months. Then, the hard disk died. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 21 21:26:03 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 21:26:03 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <546FDF60.9030000@sydex.com> References: <546FC40C.3010205@shiresoft.com> <546FDF60.9030000@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5470024B.8070002@pico-systems.com> On 11/21/2014 06:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > So, who has run 3-phase to power their MG set and HVAC for > their mainframe? Extra points for chilled water and even > more for a cooling tower for said water. > > --Chuck > > Well, I had a friend who bought a pair of 370/145's and had them in his house. He wanted to get one running, but only had 60 A 240 V service. We tried, HARD, to build a phase converter to run the 17 KVA MG set. IBM apparently used the same MG set for a range of 370 models, and the one on the 145 was VERY oversized. The DC load of the CPU was pretty much 290 A at 4.5 V, or about 1.5 KW. The idling current of the MG set was totally insane, even with a phase correcting capacitor bank it was still over the rating of the whole panel. Jon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 21:28:07 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:28:07 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > Actually, IBM gear had VERY little gold in them. Have you seen the inside of a 4381? There is a large array of multichip modules, sort of forerunners of the air cooled TCM - each one has almost 1000 gold plated pins. > So, a good-sized 360 mainframe had a couple Oz. of gold, total. The NASA model 67 reportedly had 66 ounces of gold in the CPU. Even an early model 30 could have 8 or 9. It is true that midway through the S/360 period and into the S/370 period, the gold was really trimmed away to save costs - thus my wide range of values for 3803 tape controllers (they usually have a random mix of gold and tin backplanes). -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 21:29:59 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:29:59 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Oops, not 67 but 75. -- Will On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 10:28 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Actually, IBM gear had VERY little gold in them. > > Have you seen the inside of a 4381? There is a large array of > multichip modules, sort of forerunners of the air cooled TCM - each > one has almost 1000 gold plated pins. > >> So, a good-sized 360 mainframe had a couple Oz. of gold, total. > > The NASA model 67 reportedly had 66 ounces of gold in the CPU. Even an > early model 30 could have 8 or 9. > > It is true that midway through the S/360 period and into the S/370 > period, the gold was really trimmed away to save costs - thus my wide > range of values for 3803 tape controllers (they usually have a random > mix of gold and tin backplanes). > > -- > Will From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Nov 21 21:48:02 2014 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:48:02 -0500 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54700772.6060805@compsys.to> >Michael Thompson wrote: >Where can I get RX01 SSSD 8" floppies? >Used are fine. > I should have realized that the situation needs to be clarified: (a) As far as I know, (almost?) all soft sectored 8" floppy media are formatted as either single-density (which is the IBM standard - also known as the DEC RX01 option) or double-density.(which is the additional DEC RX02 option). In the latter case, the format is essentially the same, but only the data portion of the sector is double-density. In addition, while a DEC RX01 drive can use only single-density media, a DEC RX02 drive can use BOTH single- density (SSSD) AND double-density (SSDD) media which means that the DEC RX02 drive can read / write media from a DEC RX01 drive - but can boot an RX01 media only if the boot block is first changed from DX to DY. (b) The IBM standard, the DEC RX01 and the DEC RX02 all use ONLY single-sided media. The DY.MAC V04.00 device file (the device driver for the DY.SYS file in RT-11) included (probably never tested) code to support double-sided media which would have used the DEC RX03 drive. At least a few of the third party drives and controllers for the Qbus PDP-11 which could read / write 8" floppy media actually supported both single-density and double-density media that were BOTH single-sided (SSSD, SSDD) and double-sided (DSSD, DSDD). However, at the moment, I can recall the name only for the DSD 880/30 drive (Data Systems Design). (c) The standard for single-sided media was to place the index hole very close to the center of the jacket for the floppy media. For double-sided media, the index hole was offset by about one inch. HOWEVER, the DEC RX02 drive is always able to read / write the first side of a double-sided media if there is an index hole in the expected position for single-sided media. The DSD 880/30 is able to always read both sides of a double-sided 8" media regardless of which position is used for the index hole, BUT normally the DY: device driver will detect the position of the index hole and make only the first side of the media available if the hole is in the single-sided position. When the index hole is in the double-sided position, the DY: device driver will detect the position of the index hole and make both sides of the media available. HOWEVER, it is possible to modify the function of the detection circuit (using a DPDT switch) and reverse the functions of the index hole position - in that case, the RX03 drive will support the use of both sides of the 8" media when the index hole is in the single-sided position!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Rather handy to flip the switch on the RX03 drive rather than punch a new pair of holes on each single-sided media!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) (d) At least for the PDP-11 (and probably for all DEC hardware), it was NOT possible to perform a Low Level Format (LLF) on 8" floppy media using either the RX01 or the RX02 drive. What was possible with the RX02 drive was to switch the media from single- density to double-density and from double-density to single-density AFTER the initial LLF was done on the 8" floppy media. Under RT-11, the FORMAT command SOMETIMES seemed the be able to "rescue" 8" media with bad sectors using the FORMAT command when those specific sectors on the media could no longer could be read or written. I don't remember if that operation could also be done with the RX01 drive. HOWEVER, the 8" media would have had to already been through an LLF first (SSSD). (e) At least for the Data Systems Design 8" floppy drives, it was possible to perform an LLF. For the DSD 880/30 hardware which was composed of 3 * RL02 and a single RX03, it was possible to take the unit off-line and perform any of the 4 possible LLF operations: - SSSD - DSSD - SSDD - DSDD Have I left out any information? Are there still any questions? Jerome Fine From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 21 21:58:59 2014 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 20:58:59 -0700 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <54700A03.4010602@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/21/2014 8:29 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Oops, not 67 but 75. > > -- > Will > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 10:28 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Actually, IBM gear had VERY little gold in them. >> >> Have you seen the inside of a 4381? There is a large array of >> multichip modules, sort of forerunners of the air cooled TCM - each >> one has almost 1000 gold plated pins. >> >>> So, a good-sized 360 mainframe had a couple Oz. of gold, total. >> >> The NASA model 67 reportedly had 66 ounces of gold in the CPU. Even an >> early model 30 could have 8 or 9. >> >> It is true that midway through the S/360 period and into the S/370 >> period, the gold was really trimmed away to save costs - thus my wide >> range of values for 3803 tape controllers (they usually have a random >> mix of gold and tin backplanes). >> >> -- >> Will > > But don't forget gold was still cheap, compared to today. Ben. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 21 22:00:37 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:00:37 -0600 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <54700A65.2070809@pico-systems.com> On 11/21/2014 09:28 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Actually, IBM gear had VERY little gold in them. > Have you seen the inside of a 4381? There is a large array of > multichip modules, sort of forerunners of the air cooled TCM - each > one has almost 1000 gold plated pins. > >> So, a good-sized 360 mainframe had a couple Oz. of gold, total. > The NASA model 67 reportedly had 66 ounces of gold in the CPU. Even an > early model 30 could have 8 or 9. > > It is true that midway through the S/360 period and into the S/370 > period, the gold was really trimmed away to save costs - thus my wide > range of values for 3803 tape controllers (they usually have a random > mix of gold and tin backplanes). > > -- > Will > Well, still, compared to some other makes, IBM really cut down on gold use in their machines. The earlier SMS machines had a lot of gold in them, quite similar to DEC Flip-Chip construction, in fact. I guess my experience with the IBM gear must have been the later stuff, 360 models 50 and 65, and then I actually got to dismantle a 145. Jon From lists at loomcom.com Fri Nov 21 22:01:41 2014 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:01:41 -0600 Subject: Moving Sale - Followup In-Reply-To: <20141121061850.GA5566@loomcom.com> References: <20141121061850.GA5566@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20141122040141.GA27905@loomcom.com> Wow, I'm really surprised at how fast some stuff went. The following items have been claimed and are no longer available: * Two AlphaServer DS20e systems and 4 SCSI storage arrays. * TWO MicroVAX 3100 model 80s. * AlphaStation 200 4/233. * Sun SPARCClassic. * Sun SPARC IPC. * Assorted Sun keyboards / mice. * SGI Octane. * Heathkit H-89. * Tandy TRS-80 Model 4. * Tandy Color Computer 3 * Packard Bell 286 * blue ADM-3a terminal. The following are still available. Please see original posting for details: * PDP-11/35 * PDP-11/53 * MicroVAX 3800 (working) * MicroVAX 3800 (non-working) * SGI R5000 Indy * A C-One FPGA system. * No-name serial terminal. * Sharp PC5000 * TWO DEC Rainbows * Panasonic Sr. Partner luggable * 2 or 3 TI Silent 700 terminals * Execuport 4000 printing terminal. * DEC LA100 printing terminal. * DEC Professional 350. Dead video. Thanks! -Seth From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 21 22:53:23 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 20:53:23 -0800 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <54700772.6060805@compsys.to> References: <54700772.6060805@compsys.to> Message-ID: <547016C3.2020508@sydex.com> On 11/21/2014 07:48 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > (a) As far as I know, (almost?) all soft sectored 8" floppy media > are formatted as either single-density (which is the IBM standard - > also known as the DEC RX01 option) or double-density.(which > is the additional DEC RX02 option). A couple of nits--the RX02 double-density data fields are not strictly MFM. In other words, if you'd have a controller that supported standard MFM recording and that could be switched to MFM mode after using FM for the ID address header, it still wouldn't work. DEC in its infinite zeal to be different, realized that certain MFM patterns could be mistakenly recognized as FM address marks. So there are some substitutions in the MFM coding to avoid these problem patterns. Also, IBM-standard formatted "double density" media, i.e. S/36-style always had the first track as FM, with the remainder MFM. Various sector sizes were used, from 256 bytes to 1024. FWIW, Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Nov 21 23:21:09 2014 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 00:21:09 -0500 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <547016C3.2020508@sydex.com> References: <54700772.6060805@compsys.to> <547016C3.2020508@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54701D45.5010304@compsys.to> >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >On 11/21/2014 07:48 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> (a) As far as I know, (almost?) all soft sectored 8" floppy media >> are formatted as either single-density (which is the IBM standard - >> also known as the DEC RX01 option) or double-density.(which >> is the additional DEC RX02 option). > > A couple of nits--the RX02 double-density data fields are not strictly > MFM. In other words, if you'd have a controller that supported > standard MFM recording and that could be switched to MFM mode after > using FM for the ID address header, it still wouldn't work. > > DEC in its infinite zeal to be different, realized that certain MFM > patterns could be mistakenly recognized as FM address marks. So there > are some substitutions in the MFM coding to avoid these problem patterns. > > Also, IBM-standard formatted "double density" media, i.e. S/36-style > always had the first track as FM, with the remainder MFM. Various > sector sizes were used, from 256 bytes to 1024. Thank you for the extra information. I have NEVER used any IBM hardware with 8" floppy media, only DEC hardware almost all the time. For one project in the 1980s, I used a Motorola system that had an 8" SSSD floppy media. That system could perform a Low Level Format (LLF) of the floppy - if I remember correctly. One point to mention (or clarify) is that for DEC, the FORMAT operation did NOT include writing the file structure. For the PC, the FORMAT command does BOTH an LLF as well as writing an initial root file structure (FAT16??) on the floppy media. But for DEC hardware with both the RX01 and the RX02, writing the file structure made use of the INITIALIZE command (at least under RT-11 and something similar under RSTS/E and RSX-11). So with DEC PDP-11 operating systems which used 8" floppy media, the user understood very clearly the difference between the FORMAT and INITIALIZE commands and what each one did. Jerome Fine From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 21 23:59:27 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 21:59:27 -0800 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <546FDEDC.2030709@sydex.com> References: , <546FA32F.3070102@sydex.com> <546FD8C8.7090001@update.uu.se> <546FDEDC.2030709@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5470263F.3030102@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-21 16:54, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/21/2014 04:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> I should probably point out that an RX01 or RX02 cannot actually format >> floppies at all. They need preformatted floppies, in the IBM format. > > Rainbow 100 floppies were initially like that--you bought formatted > media. But very quickly, someone wrote a formatting program. Yeah. The RX50. The Rainbow was the one machine that apparently was capable of actually formatting them. But lots of other DEC machines used them. > But you really have to wonder what DEC was thinking... Indeed. But on the other hand, it was probably a good source of income for them, selling preformatted floppies... Johnny From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 22 00:01:20 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:01:20 -0800 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <54701D45.5010304@compsys.to> References: <54700772.6060805@compsys.to> <547016C3.2020508@sydex.com> <54701D45.5010304@compsys.to> Message-ID: <547026B0.1000407@sydex.com> On 11/21/2014 09:21 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > One point to mention (or clarify) is that for DEC, the FORMAT > operation did NOT include writing the file structure. For the PC, > the FORMAT command does BOTH an LLF as well as writing > an initial root file structure (FAT16??) on the floppy media. But > for DEC hardware with both the RX01 and the RX02, writing > the file structure made use of the INITIALIZE command (at least > under RT-11 and something similar under RSTS/E and RSX-11). > So with DEC PDP-11 operating systems which used 8" floppy > media, the user understood very clearly the difference between > the FORMAT and INITIALIZE commands and what each one > did. Sort of like Unix mkfs? --Chuck From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Nov 22 00:07:47 2014 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:07:47 -0800 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546FEE8C.4050205@jwsss.com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F63D5.9090900@cimmeri.com> <005801d005c5$e68a1690$b39e43b0$@net> <546FAB8B.8040108@jwsss.com> <008901d005de$4c1f1b50$e45d51f0$@net> <546FEE8C.4050205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <009901d0061a$a60dc120$f2294360$@net> >I really hope this guy can clear a > space to save stuff and do what is suggested here. I'm making the > point that is is more significant to change to save stuff than it is to > sort into two or so streams and break it up. The stuff they save is > all categorized now, and they can get people to move that stuff off the > shelves easier than mainframe or minicomputer crap. Jim, This I agree with. However, if he is coming here saying he is willing to sort then he needs to make some changes in his practice (e.g. no hammers/saws for a week on potentially). The 15% markup I suggested is to cover those inconveniences. Of course 15% may not be enough and to make it work he may need 40%. That is a number he needs to do the math on for his own business. BTW: if you don't mind me asking where is a scrapper in SoCal? Is it anywhere near LA? From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Nov 22 00:14:06 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:14:06 -0800 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <54700772.6060805@compsys.to> References: <54700772.6060805@compsys.to> Message-ID: <547029AE.2090403@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-21 19:48, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Michael Thompson wrote: > >> Where can I get RX01 SSSD 8" floppies? >> Used are fine. >> > I should have realized that the situation needs to be clarified: > > (a) As far as I know, (almost?) all soft sectored 8" floppy media > are formatted as either single-density (which is the IBM standard - > also known as the DEC RX01 option) or double-density.(which > is the additional DEC RX02 option). In the latter case, the format > is essentially the same, but only the data portion of the sector is > double-density. In addition, while a DEC RX01 drive can use only > single-density media, a DEC RX02 drive can use BOTH single- > density (SSSD) AND double-density (SSDD) media which means > that the DEC RX02 drive can read / write media from a DEC RX01 > drive - but can boot an RX01 media only if the boot block is first > changed from DX to DY. Incorrect. The RX02 cannot read standard 8" Double Density floppies. It can only deal with single density floppies, just like the RX01. The RX02 can deal with both RX01 and RX02 media. However, the software (obviously) needs to know how to deal with it, as RX02 media gives you 256 bytes per sector, while RX01 media gives you 128 bytes per sector, which is a significant difference that needs to be dealt with. (And yes, the software can detect what format each sector is in.) Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Nov 22 00:17:50 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:17:50 -0800 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <547026B0.1000407@sydex.com> References: <54700772.6060805@compsys.to> <547016C3.2020508@sydex.com> <54701D45.5010304@compsys.to> <547026B0.1000407@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54702A8E.4040208@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-21 22:01, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/21/2014 09:21 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >> One point to mention (or clarify) is that for DEC, the FORMAT >> operation did NOT include writing the file structure. For the PC, >> the FORMAT command does BOTH an LLF as well as writing >> an initial root file structure (FAT16??) on the floppy media. But >> for DEC hardware with both the RX01 and the RX02, writing >> the file structure made use of the INITIALIZE command (at least >> under RT-11 and something similar under RSTS/E and RSX-11). >> So with DEC PDP-11 operating systems which used 8" floppy >> media, the user understood very clearly the difference between >> the FORMAT and INITIALIZE commands and what each one >> did. > > Sort of like Unix mkfs? Correct. And to make yet another silly point. FORMAT on PCs often does not actually do a low level format, but actually only creates a file system. Johnny From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 22 00:52:57 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:52:57 -0800 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <54702A8E.4040208@update.uu.se> References: <54700772.6060805@compsys.to> <547016C3.2020508@sydex.com> <54701D45.5010304@compsys.to> <547026B0.1000407@sydex.com> <54702A8E.4040208@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <547032C9.1020308@sydex.com> On 11/21/2014 10:17 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > And to make yet another silly point. FORMAT on PCs often does not > actually do a low level format, but actually only creates a file system. With floppies, somewhere around DOS 5, the "quick" format was introduced, which doesn't LLF unless the disk isn't recognized as a FAT12 filesystem. What I find irritating is that XP and later does its level best to figure out what format, if any, is present on a floppy in response to a FORMAT command. A minute or so may go by before XP figures out that the disk isn't formatted at all. It's not strictly necessary--one can call the appropriate NT API to format a track and off it goes. But I know of no command-line switch to FORMAT to disable the check. MSDOS 5 and 6 had a /u option on format that essentially said "I don't care what's on it, just (low-level) format the darned thing!" But that was dropped in the Windows 9x versions (MSDOS 7.x). Linux was never wonderful with floppies, but has gotten much worse in that latest versions, with both USB and legacy floppy drives. My only conclusion is that it's because of utter neglect--and the nose in the air attitude "what moron still uses floppies?" Of course, hard drives under MSDOS and NT don't acknowledge any idea of LLF--and indeed, for later drives, it's probably not implemented in the drive interface. CP/M as delivered from DRI in the OEM kit doesn't have a FORMAT command, even in skeleton form. That's strictly up to the system vendor as to whether one is implemented or not. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 23:37:17 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 23:37:17 -0600 Subject: An excellent cordless screwdriver recommendation Message-ID: Decided to share this little bit of Good Info with the list. If you're like me, you probably turn away from most of those small, in-line cordless screwdrivers. Well, here's one to keep an eye out for, when you're browsing the garage sales, flea markets or thrift stores.. it's the best of the best ever made. The Black & Decker 9038 (Image attached) This particular model was good enough for Snap-On to re-badge (and re-color it, red & black) as a Blue Point Cordless Screwdriver - which they sold for silly $$$. Do NOT confuse it with ANY of the similar appearing models, no matter how close they may seem. Only the 9038 will do! They were only sold during the 1989-1992 era; later discontinued. The battery packs are no longer available, but can easily be re-built with generic NiCd cells. I've done at least two of them, this way, and they run quite a bit longer & stronger with modern NiCd cells. With its dual-planetary gear sets, this unit makes enough torque to break small screws or damage your wrist.. and it locks-up solid any time you're not running the motor - no need to 'shift gears' to reverse or lock the shaft. Reversing is simply a matter of moving the switch one way or the other. Find one, rebuild the battery, and put it in your kit. You'll love it.. one of the only electric tools I've used for 20+ years. Hope you find this useful. From ba600 at ncf.ca Sat Nov 22 02:53:06 2014 From: ba600 at ncf.ca (Mike) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 03:53:06 -0500 Subject: digital LA210 Letterprinter, available in Ottawa Message-ID: <2142142.cD422mziNA@linux-zlo2.site> I have a friend loking to clean out his basement. >Have digital LA210 Letterprinter, tractor feed, and ribbon headed for scrap. >Want it? Is there any interest in DEC printers? -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 22 03:07:16 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 09:07:16 -0000 Subject: digital LA210 Letterprinter, available in Ottawa In-Reply-To: <2142142.cD422mziNA@linux-zlo2.site> References: <2142142.cD422mziNA@linux-zlo2.site> Message-ID: <014701d00633$b6265a90$22730fb0$@ntlworld.com> I have a partially working one that I would like to fix someday, so this could be useful for parts, but I doubt I could afford the shipping from Canada. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike > Sent: 22 November 2014 08:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: digital LA210 Letterprinter, available in Ottawa > > I have a friend loking to clean out his basement. > > >Have digital LA210 Letterprinter, tractor feed, and ribbon headed for scrap. > >Want it? > > Is there any interest in DEC printers? > > > -- > Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From chrise at pobox.com Sat Nov 22 07:57:24 2014 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 07:57:24 -0600 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <5470263F.3030102@update.uu.se> References: <546FA32F.3070102@sydex.com> <546FD8C8.7090001@update.uu.se> <546FDEDC.2030709@sydex.com> <5470263F.3030102@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20141122135723.GF9850@n0jcf.net> On Friday (11/21/2014 at 09:59PM -0800), Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-11-21 16:54, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >On 11/21/2014 04:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > >>I should probably point out that an RX01 or RX02 cannot actually format > >>floppies at all. They need preformatted floppies, in the IBM format. > > > >Rainbow 100 floppies were initially like that--you bought formatted > >media. But very quickly, someone wrote a formatting program. > > Yeah. The RX50. The Rainbow was the one machine that apparently was capable > of actually formatting them. But lots of other DEC machines used them. > > >But you really have to wonder what DEC was thinking... > > Indeed. But on the other hand, it was probably a good source of income for > them, selling preformatted floppies... FWIW, the Heathkit H27 can low-level format RX01 media. There is a switch on the front to enable the formatting. http://www.computermuseum.li/Testpage/Heathkit-DEC-H11.htm The H-27 floppy disk subsystem features two 256K 8" single side, single density drives. The drives are DEC RX01 compatible, and, unlike the DEC products of the day, are able to format the floppies,. There is another switch to select between "EXTENDED" and "RX01" and I am still trying to determine if "EXTENDED" is RX02 or something proprietary to Heath. I have an H27 but it is not running currently and I do not have a manual. -- Chris Elmquist From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 22 09:28:40 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 10:28:40 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <546FAB8B.8040108@jwsss.com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F63D5.9090900@cimmeri.com> <005801d005c5$e68a1690$b39e43b0$@net> <546FAB8B.8040108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > It might seem like that, but the scrappers are probably getting in 40 or 50' > trailers full of stuff, so they don't have time to admire anything that can > just be handled like any other bulk scrap. He is probably paying dearly for > the space he operates in, so every 4 x 5' space he wasted storing something > so we can do the old soft shoe and low ball him is a lot of space he can't > store crap to sort, to get the trailers empty for the next. This is by no means universally true. There are a lot of scrappers (probably more those with fingers into the surplus business) that have quite a lot of space with very low overhead. These are the guys that can store things. Sometimes I even see stuff hanging around for years - not because they are holding onto it for huge money, but simply because if gets pushed to the back as a new load comes in. -- Will From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Nov 22 13:53:25 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 11:53:25 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <32678864.1416624359258.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <32678864.1416624359258.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <36796B1F-D61E-4DEC-B77A-E934E0EA26CE@nf6x.net> I haven't rewired for computer stuff yet, but I ran a conduit to my radio room and brought in a 20A 240V circuit, a 30A 120V circuit, and two 20A 120V circuits. I don't know yet how I'll deal with my new computer collection in the next room. It looks like I'll be picking up a 400 Hz motor-generator set which will live out in the workshop. I don't know what I'll power with it, but I have a chance to grab it for free before it goes to the trash man. I'd also be interested in an 800 Hz set if another one shows up, since I have some WW2 Navy gear that uses 800 Hz power. I plan to convert a solid-state inverter to provide 800 Hz for it, but it would be neat to also have a working example of "Here's how not to do it if you have a better option". :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Nov 22 14:50:47 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 14:50:47 -0600 Subject: Old x86 "PC" SBCs (Toronto Microelectronics) Message-ID: <5470F727.7070303@gmail.com> I've got this ISA card sitting around which was made by Toronto Microelectronics (TME), but it gives the impression that it may be a complete SBC in its own right; it has a 386sx for CPU, takes 30 pin simms, and has various connectors (IDE, floppy, 2x RS232 and parallel are obvious, then there are another six unlabeled connectors). IC dates are all around 1993. Does anyone happen to know anything about these boards - in particular, the purpose/pinouts for the unknown connectors, and whether they require a backplane to work? (Or, maybe there's a standard amongst the x86 SBC world for this kind of thing, I have no idea.) I'm thinking it might make the basis a nice little serial terminal, at least if it has any on-board video capability - it would be quite easy to hide it (along with a suitable small PSU) inside a 14" CRT case. There's a picture of one here, but I've been unable to find any info anywhere: http://www.ascent-tecsemispares.com/index.php/other/t/toronto-microelectronics-inc/pcb.html cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 22 09:54:54 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 07:54:54 -0800 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: References: <546EDE4D.10205@shiresoft.com> <546EE8E8.6000604@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5470B1CE.6020307@bitsavers.org> On 11/21/14 3:18 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Perhaps Al can comment. > Jeff's collection was mostly superseded by the discovery and archiving of the Cupertino binary tapes. I'll see if I can figure out what happened to Jeff's stuff. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 22 11:20:03 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 09:20:03 -0800 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: <5470B1CE.6020307@bitsavers.org> References: <546EDE4D.10205@shiresoft.com> <546EE8E8.6000604@shiresoft.com> <5470B1CE.6020307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5470C5C3.20103@bitsavers.org> On 11/22/14 7:54 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/21/14 3:18 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Perhaps Al can comment. >> > > Jeff's collection was mostly superseded by the discovery and archiving of the > Cupertino binary tapes. I'll see if I can figure out what happened to Jeff's stuff. > It was all still there, the index.html was a bit stale so I just converted it to a text file and renamed the original file to old_index.html. I also added .bin suffixes to all the files in paperTapes/tape_images From scaron at umich.edu Sat Nov 22 10:39:46 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 11:39:46 -0500 Subject: Net-boot and install OpenVMS 7.x on MicroVAX 3x00? Message-ID: Hi all, Now that I've got some BA23s I've been busy building up a few Q-bus systems. I've got one KA650 based system with a good, booting RD54 and one KA655 based system with a good, booting Maxtor 340 MB ESDI drive (via a Sigma controller). Points to Maxtor for quality, I guess! As fun as it is to boot the vintage VMS 5.x releases on these drives and fool around, I'd like to get OpenVMS 7.2 or 7.3 installed at least on my KA655. While I'm saving up my pennies for a Q-bus SCSI card, does anyone know if it's possible to do both a net-boot and a fresh VMS installation given an existing VAXcluster where I do have a SCSI CD-ROM hooked up to one of the machines? I don't just want to boot it as a satellite node, I just want to use the net-boot to bootstrap an installation since I don't have a local CD-ROM on that machine to boot from. If I can get it booted as a satellite maybe there's something "unsupported" I can do to perform a network installation? If not I guess I'll just play with 5.x until I can get a SCSI card on hand. Thanks! Sean From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Nov 22 13:48:35 2014 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 13:48:35 -0600 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F63D5.9090900@cimmeri.com> <005801d005c5$e68a1690$b39e43b0$@net> <546FAB8B.8040108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20141122194835.GB2945@lonesome.com> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 10:28:40AM -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > Sometimes I even see stuff hanging around for years not because they > are holding onto it for huge money, but simply because if gets pushed > to the back as a new load comes in. True, but consider: if it's sitting in the back of the warehouse, it isn't making any money. At the company I work for, space is constrained. Nothing is kept on the theory it will accumulate value later -- in fact, for anything made recently, the opposite is true. Laptops and desktops, in particular, need to either go out quickly or be scrapped. (note: we only rarely get 'collectible'-class items, and I try to flag those. No minicomputers or mainframes :-) ) mcl From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 22 15:08:45 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 13:08:45 -0800 Subject: Old x86 "PC" SBCs (Toronto Microelectronics) In-Reply-To: <5470F727.7070303@gmail.com> References: <5470F727.7070303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5470FB5D.7070502@sydex.com> On 11/22/2014 12:50 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I've got this ISA card sitting around which was made by Toronto > Microelectronics (TME), but it gives the impression that it may be a > complete SBC in its own right; it has a 386sx for CPU, takes 30 pin > simms, and has various connectors (IDE, floppy, 2x RS232 and parallel > are obvious, then there are another six unlabeled connectors). IC dates > are all around 1993. I've seen similar Chinese-made NOS ones being offered on eBay. Most of the connectors should be obvious--including one 10-pin header at the extreme top left for serial comms. Others should be keyboard, mouse and probably HDD indicator. A little buzzing out with a continuity checker should betray the remainder. I think these were mostly used in passive-backplane industrial applications. You typically don't need a lot of compute power in such applications, nor fancy graphics. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Nov 22 15:12:37 2014 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 13:12:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <007801d005cb$7bf63f60$73e2be20$@net> References: <20141121200333.GB4645@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <007801d005cb$7bf63f60$73e2be20$@net> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Nov 2014, Ali wrote: >> My wife thinks I'm certifiable as well since there couldn't possibly be >> anyone else in the world interested in this "junk." Oh, and also that >> I'm a "semi-hoarder." > > Only "semi-"? You have a very understanding wife. Mine has labeled me a > hoarder and threatens at least once a week to call in a junk dealer to > "clean out the house"! > Might I suggest you update to a newer build? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 22 15:17:28 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 16:17:28 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <20141122194835.GB2945@lonesome.com> References: <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <20141121111007.GA12863@lonesome.com> <546F588B.7020506@attglobal.net> <546F63D5.9090900@cimmeri.com> <005801d005c5$e68a1690$b39e43b0$@net> <546FAB8B.8040108@jwsss.com> <20141122194835.GB2945@lonesome.com> Message-ID: > True, but consider: if it's sitting in the back of the warehouse, it > isn't making any money. No, but the stuff in the new load is. It might be making more money, due to low hanging fruit. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Nov 22 15:52:01 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 15:52:01 -0600 Subject: Old x86 "PC" SBCs (Toronto Microelectronics) In-Reply-To: <5470FB5D.7070502@sydex.com> References: <5470F727.7070303@gmail.com> <5470FB5D.7070502@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54710581.4080809@gmail.com> On 11/22/2014 03:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/22/2014 12:50 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> I've got this ISA card sitting around which was made by Toronto >> Microelectronics (TME), but it gives the impression that it may be a >> complete SBC in its own right; it has a 386sx for CPU, takes 30 pin >> simms, and has various connectors (IDE, floppy, 2x RS232 and parallel >> are obvious, then there are another six unlabeled connectors). IC dates >> are all around 1993. > > I've seen similar Chinese-made NOS ones being offered on eBay. Most of the > connectors should be obvious--including one 10-pin header at the extreme > top left for serial comms. Others should be keyboard, mouse and probably > HDD indicator. A little buzzing out with a continuity checker should > betray the remainder. Yes, it's got a female DB25 on the edge for parallel, along with a male DE9 for serial - then there's a 10-pin header on the board marked as being for a second serial port. IDE and floppy headers are also labeled. For whatever reason the designer didn't label the other six connectors on the PCB, though. There are a pair of four-pin connectors, and one of those might be speaker (but there is a buzzer on the PCB). There's a 5 pin connector which could be keyboard. A 16 pin connector which seems to have various pins tied together and run via fuses (likely power in or power out, I'll check with a meter anyway). There are no obvious video-related ICs, so I'm thinking it probably doesn't have any such ability, unless it's buried within one of the custom ICs - but booted from a CF card it would still make a neat little controller/monitor for something (it was just unusual enough that I felt the need to save it from the recycler!) I think I may have a passive ISA backplane somewhere, so maybe I need to try coupling it with a video board and feeding it power, to at least see if it gives me a display. cheers J. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 22 16:07:30 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 22:07:30 -0000 Subject: Net-boot and install OpenVMS 7.x on MicroVAX 3x00? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01f201d006a0$b5695ea0$203c1be0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean Caron > Sent: 22 November 2014 16:40 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org; Sean Caron > Subject: Net-boot and install OpenVMS 7.x on MicroVAX 3x00? > > Hi all, > > Now that I've got some BA23s I've been busy building up a few Q-bus systems. > I've got one KA650 based system with a good, booting RD54 and one > KA655 based system with a good, booting Maxtor 340 MB ESDI drive (via a > Sigma controller). Points to Maxtor for quality, I guess! > > As fun as it is to boot the vintage VMS 5.x releases on these drives and fool > around, I'd like to get OpenVMS 7.2 or 7.3 installed at least on my KA655. > > While I'm saving up my pennies for a Q-bus SCSI card, does anyone know if it's > possible to do both a net-boot and a fresh VMS installation given an existing > VAXcluster where I do have a SCSI CD-ROM hooked up to one of the machines? > > I don't just want to boot it as a satellite node, I just want to use the net-boot to > bootstrap an installation since I don't have a local CD-ROM on that machine to > boot from. > > If I can get it booted as a satellite maybe there's something "unsupported" > I can do to perform a network installation? > > If not I guess I'll just play with 5.x until I can get a SCSI card on hand. > > Thanks! > > Sean The way I do this is roughly as follows: Net boot the machine as a satellite. Do a restore of the VMS image to the local disk. Assuming the VMS image is somewhere on your cluster. Mount the local disk and copy any other kits to it. Boot the machine from the disk. Hope that helps Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 22 16:07:30 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 22:07:30 -0000 Subject: Net-boot and install OpenVMS 7.x on MicroVAX 3x00? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01f201d006a0$b5695ea0$203c1be0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean Caron > Sent: 22 November 2014 16:40 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org; Sean Caron > Subject: Net-boot and install OpenVMS 7.x on MicroVAX 3x00? > > Hi all, > > Now that I've got some BA23s I've been busy building up a few Q-bus systems. > I've got one KA650 based system with a good, booting RD54 and one > KA655 based system with a good, booting Maxtor 340 MB ESDI drive (via a > Sigma controller). Points to Maxtor for quality, I guess! > > As fun as it is to boot the vintage VMS 5.x releases on these drives and fool > around, I'd like to get OpenVMS 7.2 or 7.3 installed at least on my KA655. > > While I'm saving up my pennies for a Q-bus SCSI card, does anyone know if it's > possible to do both a net-boot and a fresh VMS installation given an existing > VAXcluster where I do have a SCSI CD-ROM hooked up to one of the machines? > > I don't just want to boot it as a satellite node, I just want to use the net-boot to > bootstrap an installation since I don't have a local CD-ROM on that machine to > boot from. > > If I can get it booted as a satellite maybe there's something "unsupported" > I can do to perform a network installation? > > If not I guess I'll just play with 5.x until I can get a SCSI card on hand. > > Thanks! > > Sean The way I do this is roughly as follows: Net boot the machine as a satellite. Do a restore of the VMS image to the local disk. Assuming the VMS image is somewhere on your cluster. Mount the local disk and copy any other kits to it. Boot the machine from the disk. Hope that helps Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 22 16:39:39 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 14:39:39 -0800 Subject: Old x86 "PC" SBCs (Toronto Microelectronics) In-Reply-To: <54710581.4080809@gmail.com> References: <5470F727.7070303@gmail.com> <5470FB5D.7070502@sydex.com> <54710581.4080809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <547110AB.8060706@sydex.com> For whatever it's worth, here's another one: eBay item 331277675489 Slightly different; appears to include VGA video. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 22 16:45:41 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 17:45:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: National Semiconductor NS23C 1MB memory cards Message-ID: <20141122224541.12F0018C150@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I have a couple of National Semiconductor 1MB QBUS memory cards, NS23C's. They have a _ton_ of configuration jumpers. I have located a technical manual for the NS23C, _but_, reading it, it seems it only applies to the 256KB version of this board. (It's definitely a 1MB version; the memory chips are KM41C256P, 256Kx1, and there are 36 - 4 bytes wide, with parity, so 1MB total. And there are tons of hits on Google for NS23C 1MB boards.) Does anyone happen to know how the 256K and 1M versions differ, if at all, jumper-wise? I can probably work it out (maybe there a couple of extra jumpers for the size, unless they simply multiplied the size settings by 4 - quite possible), but it would be not too useful to expend the effort if someone else already knows the answer. Noel From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sat Nov 22 16:56:26 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 22:56:26 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 02:46:29PM -0500, Todd Killingsworth wrote: [...] > How much of what you collect requires 220v? How many big boxes do you keep > running - 24/7 or just turn it on/off as you want to use it? On this side of the Pond, everything is already nominally 230V and all UK sockets are good for 13A :) That's part of the source of the stereotype of the British always having a kettle on for endless cups of tea: a litre of water boils rather quickly when one dumps 3kW (i.e. 230V*13A) of heat into it. > I guess somewhere in the back of my mind, I realized that old machines took > lots of power. But do the collectors here wire up their homes and keep > machines there? Or do you have another place (old warehouse or somesuch) > that already supports multiple 220v hookups? Or do you colo it somewhere? I don't own anything that draws more than 13A, but if I did, I'd hook it into the cooker circuit which is good for 40A (or 9kW). While it would be somewhat unusual, it is still legal and safe for a DIYer to do that without getting a professional in. As it happens, I *have* tapped into the cooker circuit, but only because it was the most convenient supply for some white goods and not because I needed the current. Besides, doesn't the USA also have fairly chunky 220V cooker circuits? I'd just dive in with a reel of twin and earth and be done with it. The only hard bit is to do it in a tidy enough manner to not get a bollocking off the missus. From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Nov 22 17:13:55 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 00:13:55 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20141122231355.GB49543@beast.freibergnet.de> Peter Corlett wrote: > On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 02:46:29PM -0500, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > [...] > > How much of what you collect requires 220v? How many big boxes do you keep > > running - 24/7 or just turn it on/off as you want to use it? > > On this side of the Pond, everything is already nominally 230V and all UK > sockets are good for 13A :) > > That's part of the source of the stereotype of the British always having a > kettle on for endless cups of tea: a litre of water boils rather quickly when > one dumps 3kW (i.e. 230V*13A) of heat into it. > Hmm, I'm from germany and here it is pretty much normal to have 3phase 230V 50Hz power, at least in rural areas and newer installations in cities. Stadard here is 3x32A. The voltages here are getting high lately, measured 248V 2 days before, but this is well in the tolerance (230V+-10%). Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From tsg at bonedaddy.net Sat Nov 22 17:36:48 2014 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 18:36:48 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20141122233648.GE17228@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Peter Corlett [141122 17:56]: [SNIP] > Besides, doesn't the USA also have fairly chunky 220V cooker circuits? I'd > just dive in with a reel of twin and earth and be done with it. The only hard > bit is to do it in a tidy enough manner to not get a bollocking off the missus. Yes, we have 220V 30amp clothes dryer and stove circuits here. Todd From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 22 18:03:57 2014 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 17:03:57 -0700 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141122233648.GE17228@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> <20141122233648.GE17228@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <5471246D.50508@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/22/2014 4:36 PM, Todd Goodman wrote: > * Peter Corlett [141122 17:56]: > [SNIP] >> Besides, doesn't the USA also have fairly chunky 220V cooker circuits? I'd >> just dive in with a reel of twin and earth and be done with it. The only hard >> bit is to do it in a tidy enough manner to not get a bollocking off the missus. > > Yes, we have 220V 30amp clothes dryer and stove circuits here. > > Todd > Well why worry. Get big IRON and start Puching Cards. Programmers NEVER care about looks, and always order PIZZA and Cola. A few MODS and a WASHING MACHINE style drive will handle clothing needs. :) I suspect finding power is one of fewer problems if you have older stuff. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 22 18:05:35 2014 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 17:05:35 -0700 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141122233648.GE17228@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> <20141122233648.GE17228@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <547124CF.7000605@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/22/2014 4:36 PM, Todd Goodman wrote: > * Peter Corlett [141122 17:56]: > [SNIP] >> Besides, doesn't the USA also have fairly chunky 220V cooker circuits? I'd >> just dive in with a reel of twin and earth and be done with it. The only hard >> bit is to do it in a tidy enough manner to not get a bollocking off the missus. > > Yes, we have 220V 30amp clothes dryer and stove circuits here. > > Todd 3 phase power is the key word here. Ben. > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 22 18:25:02 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 16:25:02 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <5471295E.7030401@sydex.com> On 11/22/2014 02:56 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On this side of the Pond, everything is already nominally 230V and all UK > sockets are good for 13A :) I note that the higher-power vacuum cleaners ("hoovers") are being limited in the UK. I was always envious of those. A typical "high power" vac here is 1200W. NEC (our electrical code) says that corded appliances may not draw more than 80% of the rated load capacity of a non-dedicated circuit. For most US homes, standard wall receptacles are 15A/120V, so that limits the draw by any individual appliance to 12A. The section (210.23(A)(1)).is a bit more complicated than that, but you get the idea. On the other hand, we aren't troubled with ring mains. There's also no danger of using a 13A plug fuse for a table lamp--we don't need no stinking plug fuses! --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Nov 22 18:33:23 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 18:33:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Nov 2014, Peter Corlett wrote: > I don't own anything that draws more than 13A, but if I did, I'd hook it > into the cooker circuit which is good for 40A (or 9kW). While it would > be somewhat unusual, it is still legal and safe for a DIYer to do that > without getting a professional in. As it happens, I *have* tapped into > the cooker circuit, but only because it was the most convenient supply > for some white goods and not because I needed the current. > > Besides, doesn't the USA also have fairly chunky 220V cooker circuits? > I'd just dive in with a reel of twin and earth and be done with it. > The only hard bit is to do it in a tidy enough manner to not get a > bollocking off the missus. NEMA 14-30, 240V 30A, 4-wire, clothes dryers NEMA 14-50, 240V 50A, 4-wire, electric ranges NEMA 10-30, 240V 30A, 3-wire, clothes dryers NEMA 10-50, 240V 50A, 3-wire, electric ranges In the US, with systems installed before 1996, it is common to find NEMA 10 3-wire devices which lack a ground (earth) pin. As of the 1996 NEC, new installations should be using NEMA 14 4-wire devices. With NEMA 10 devices, the practice was to bond the metal frame of the appliance to the neutral wire. These older installations are still allowed for existing circuits only (with some very specific restrictions) per 250.60 "Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers" (1996 NEC), later renumbered to 250.140 in the 1999 NEC. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Nov 22 19:14:49 2014 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 20:14:49 -0500 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <547029AE.2090403@update.uu.se> References: <54700772.6060805@compsys.to> <547029AE.2090403@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54713509.5070004@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >On 2014-11-21 19:48, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> I should have realized that the situation needs to be clarified: >> >> (a) As far as I know, (almost?) all soft sectored 8" floppy media >> are formatted as either single-density (which is the IBM standard - >> also known as the DEC RX01 option) or double-density.(which >> is the additional DEC RX02 option). In the latter case, the format >> is essentially the same, but only the data portion of the sector is >> double-density. In addition, while a DEC RX01 drive can use only >> single-density media, a DEC RX02 drive can use BOTH single- >> density (SSSD) AND double-density (SSDD) media which means >> that the DEC RX02 drive can read / write media from a DEC RX01 >> drive - but can boot an RX01 media only if the boot block is first >> changed from DX to DY. > > Incorrect. The RX02 cannot read standard 8" Double Density floppies. > It can only deal with single density floppies, just like the RX01. I am quite sure that your information with regard to Double-Density floppies is technically correct. Your much greater level of experience must have acquainted you with actual double-density floppies at some point. However, it would be helpful if you could provide a specific example of a real double-density 8" floppy so that we can all share the same information. The information which would be needed is the name of the manufacturer of the floppies, the name of the computer system, the name of the double-density drive, the name of the controller, the name of the operating system and the name of the device driver used when a "standard 8" Double Density floppy" is present. If you don't have all of the above information, present at least as much as you remember. Also, at least an estimate of the percentage of "standard 8" Double Density floppies" in use compared to the standard 8" IBM SSSD floppies (including both DEC RX01 and DEC RX02) would be useful so we can judge if "standard 8" Double Density floppies" were significant. In my opinion, anything less that 1% would be considered insignificant. It is great to contradict what all DEC documentation on 8" RX02 floppies mentions with respect to double-density media (and given that the DEC documentation was usually complete and correct - DEC, in this case much have been providing false information or at least characterizing "double-density" incorrectly at least as far as you are concerned) and I am sure that you do have some competing example in mind. What is it? And why is the statement that DEC makes that the media are double-density (when the sector size is 256 bytes) "incorrect"? Jerome Fine From random832 at fastmail.us Sat Nov 22 19:30:02 2014 From: random832 at fastmail.us (random832 at fastmail.us) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 20:30:02 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <1416706202.2238820.194258137.3CBFE761@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014, at 19:33, Tothwolf wrote: > NEMA 14-30, 240V 30A, 4-wire, clothes dryers > NEMA 14-50, 240V 50A, 4-wire, electric ranges > NEMA 10-30, 240V 30A, 3-wire, clothes dryers > NEMA 10-50, 240V 50A, 3-wire, electric ranges > > In the US, with systems installed before 1996, it is common to find NEMA > 10 3-wire devices which lack a ground (earth) pin. And in case anyone's wondering what we need four wires for, it's because our 240V circuits use two opposite phases that are 120 V relative to ground. Some appliances will use just one phase for some purposes such as lights and timers. From slandon110 at gmail.com Sat Nov 22 20:29:57 2014 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 21:29:57 -0500 Subject: Free: NeXT Mono Slab & Matching Printer Message-ID: <547146A5.5050308@gmail.com> About 4 years ago a very generous list member had given me a NeXT Mono Slab, I havent used it very much since then and I think the right thing to do is pass it along to someone else who will appreciate it and use it. The only thing I ask is that it never hits ebay and if you decide to get rid of it give it to another person who will love and appreciate it. Its a complete system with laser printer and matching NeXT power cord. Im located in Farwell Michigan From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Sat Nov 22 16:33:06 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 17:33:06 -0500 Subject: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage conditions In-Reply-To: <001b01d0055d$6ea66380$4bf32a80$@ntlworld.com> References: <001b01d0055d$6ea66380$4bf32a80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the replies. Hope to remember enough about electronics and get enough guidance to be able to use the diagrams you've made, Rob. Okay, I opened the power supply and checked for corrosion (none at all), worked back and forth all of the push-on connectors thoroughly and replaced the PSU into the chassis. I don't yet understand where to insert the resistors, but I guess anywhere there's 12v and 5v would be sensible. So now, with no boards at all in the chassis, I do at least get a few lights on the little front panel but unfortunately not the "DC OK" light and still no fans. To get them to stay on, I have to kind of 'trick' the PSU by turning it off, waiting a second, then turning it back on. While I'm not stickler for perfect authenticity, I do respect it to a degree. So I'm wondering but am hesitant to ask: Would it be more sensible to just buy a commodity PC power supply that has lots of 5v and some 12v, find a way to bolt it in and rework the wiring to fit? Or do you think it's likely I'll be able to bring this power supply back to safe, reliable condition without getting in over my head? Suggestions on where to begin tracing the thing would be most welcome, please and thanks! It's been some decades since I've dealt with electronics at this level of detail and in the interim, someone has made off with my nice fluke meter, so I don't even have anything to check volts with at the moment. Going to find another now. Got lots to re-learn here; thanks for bearing with.. --jake On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 2:33 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > There is no printset that I am aware of the for the H7864 PSU. I have a > dead one of these too, I do know which component failed but I don't know > *why* it failed. As part of that diagnosis I have made a partial schematic > of a couple of parts of the boards. > > The schematic for the Primary Control Module is here: > http://1drv.ms/1yBzYTN (png) or here: http://1drv.ms/1xFXUnR (Eagle > schematic). I may not have drawn it logically, and may have some bits > wrong, as it is quite difficult to derive the schematic and it is easy to > make mistakes. I don?t know how to identify zener diodes, so all diodes are > drawn as ordinary ones. I was also unable to draw the transformers > correctly as I don't know their spec and pinout. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jacob > > Ritorto > > Sent: 21 November 2014 05:46 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage > > conditions > > > > Well, things inside were clean and pretty minimally configured, so, > with all > > apologies, I jumped the gun and applied power, but I'm afraid the old > girl just > > didn't survive the twelve years of temperature transients. > > > > The illuminated ba23 power rocker switch lights up, but that's > absolutely it. > > No fans, no familiar power supply squeal, no drive spinup, nothing on the > > seven-segment CPU state display on the rear. Seems thoroughly dead. > > > > I guess I need to start tearing it down and debugging the power supply > as I > > recall that it was at least doing more than this before the years of bad > storage. > > > > So I need to find power supply diagrams and start tracing things out, > right? > > Any ideas as to where to begin? > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Jacob Ritorto > > wrote: > > > > > Good deal. I guess I'm just gonna go for it after a cursory > > > inspection and dusting. It has stayed utterly dry; just the temp and > > > dust were concerns. I'll report back in a while.. Thanks! > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > > > > > >> At the very least, take a good long look at the power supply and its > caps. > > >> > > >> Has the storage, as bad as it's been, been dry? If not, you'll > > >> almost certainly have corrosion all over the place, especially in the > > >> fastons ISTR run power to the backplane. (I haven't looked at my own > > >> 11/73 in a few years, but it's in a dry, temperature-stable > > >> basement.) > > >> > > >> Best of luck! - Ian > > >> On Nov 20, 2014 12:32 PM, "Jacob Ritorto" > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Hey all, > > >> > I've been getting the bug worse and worse to start working on a > > >> > real pdp11. The Raspberry Pi / simh emulation is fantastic, but my > > >> > hunger > > >> for > > >> > authenticity is becoming rampant. I haven't run the youngest in my > > >> fleet > > >> > of pdp11s, the 11/73, since circa 2002 and if I recall correctly, > > >> > it was becoming flaky and popping out to ODT inexplicably from time > > >> > to time > > >> back > > >> > then (I think this is the one with the notoriously combustible > > >> > power > > >> supply > > >> > wires that probably haven't been ECO'd yet -- need to get to that > too). > > >> > It's been lying in a warehouse in western Pennsylvania with no heat > > >> > and > > >> a > > >> > lot of dust. So, worst case, we're talking temperature transients > > >> around > > >> > 110 F and -20 F with no protection. It did stay quite dry. > > >> > > > >> > Think it'd be bad to simply blow the dust off and fire it up? > > >> > > > >> > thx > > >> > jake > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Nov 22 16:54:23 2014 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 17:54:23 -0500 Subject: RX01 Floppies Message-ID: >So is the original poster (Michael) really looking for already >formatted RX01 floppies, or will blank 8-inch single sided floppies do >just as well? Probably easier to find generic floppies than already >formatted RX01 floppies. So, where can I get some already formatted generic SSSD 8" floppies? -- Michael Thompson From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 22 17:57:16 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 23:57:16 -0000 Subject: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage conditions In-Reply-To: References: <001b01d0055d$6ea66380$4bf32a80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01f301d006b0$0b299670$217cc350$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jacob > Ritorto > Sent: 22 November 2014 22:33 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage > conditions > > Thanks for the replies. Hope to remember enough about electronics and get > enough guidance to be able to use the diagrams you've made, Rob. Please be aware that the diagram I did is only for the part where I have had a failure (Q301), and the diagram is not drawn logically (because my understanding on SMPSs is limited. I also keep finding mistakes, in fact I had to re-upload it again a short while ago. > > Okay, I opened the power supply and checked for corrosion (none at all), > worked back and forth all of the push-on connectors thoroughly and replaced > the PSU into the chassis. I don't yet understand where to insert the resistors, > but I guess anywhere there's 12v and 5v would be sensible. > > So now, with no boards at all in the chassis, I do at least get a few lights on > the little front panel but unfortunately not the "DC OK" light and still no fans. > To get them to stay on, I have to kind of 'trick' the PSU by turning it off, waiting > a second, then turning it back on. > > While I'm not stickler for perfect authenticity, I do respect it to a degree. So > I'm wondering but am hesitant to ask: Would it be more sensible to just buy a > commodity PC power supply that has lots of 5v and some 12v, find a way to bolt > it in and rework the wiring to fit? Or do you think it's likely I'll be able to bring > this power supply back to safe, reliable condition without getting in over my > head? Seems like yours is working better than mine.... It is very easy to get sucked in, this has happened to me, but if you want these things to work I think you just have to bite the bullet. I am hesitant to make suggestions giving my limited knowledge, but if you can use a dummy load (use some motor vehicle light bulbs) and then use an oscilloscope to check for ripple on the outputs that might begin to help. Be careful where you connect the scope though as you can damage it if you try to trace back too far with it. Probably best to use it only on the outputs. Also I am sure you are aware that there are lethal voltages inside PSUs, so be careful and make sure any big capacitors are discharged before touching anything. > > Suggestions on where to begin tracing the thing would be most welcome, > please and thanks! > > It's been some decades since I've dealt with electronics at this level of detail > and in the interim, someone has made off with my nice fluke meter, so I don't > even have anything to check volts with at the moment. Going to find another > now. Got lots to re-learn here; thanks for bearing with.. I have found that I have had to re-learn the little I knew, and I am learning more and more. I have found that over time I have had to buy more and more equipment. One of the biggest lessons for me is to invest in reasonable equipment. I only just bought a desoldering station, I wish I had done this a long time ago!! Regards Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 22 21:07:31 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 22:07:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: 11/73 (ba23) bringup after 12 years in deplorable storage conditions Message-ID: <20141123030731.799A618C15A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jacob Ritorto > I don't yet understand where to insert the resistors, but I guess > anywhere there's 12v and 5v would be sensible. Alas, I don't (yet) have a BA23, so I can't offer any personal-based guidance on how to attach a dummy load to the power system. (On the BA11-N/BA11-S, it's pretty simple, there's a nice barrier strip, but I don't know much about how a BA23 is, inside. I suppose I should go read a manual... :-) Maybe I should just lend you some of my QBUS load modules? That would avoid the whole issue, you just plug it in like a normal card. You're in PA, right? > So now, with no boards at all in the chassis, I do at least get a few > lights on the little front panel but unfortunately not the "DC OK" > light and still no fans. To get them to stay on, I have to kind of > 'trick' the PSU by turning it off, waiting a second, then turning it > back on. If it's a switching power supply (which it probably is, as late a machine as that is), it probably needs _some_ load to operate properly. > Would it be more sensible to just buy a commodity PC power supply that > has lots of 5v and some 12v, find a way to bolt it in and rework the > wiring to fit? Or do you think it's likely I'll be able to bring this > power supply back to safe, reliable condition without getting in over > my head? Hard for me to answer that.. you're the one who knows how much you can handle! Alas, I'm not an analog whiz, so it will have to be others who help you through it, if you go that way. > Got lots to re-learn here; thanks for bearing with.. Hey, you're not the only person in that particular boat... :-) Noel From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 22 21:22:26 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 19:22:26 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141122231355.GB49543@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> <20141122231355.GB49543@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <547152F2.7090801@sydex.com> On 11/22/2014 03:13 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hmm, I'm from germany and here it is pretty much normal to have 3phase > 230V 50Hz power, at least in rural areas and newer installations in cities. > Stadard here is 3x32A. Well, 3-phase HV distribution is very common here, but transformers for residential distribution are single-phase as a rule. The distribution on the utility easement on my property is 6600V 3-phase, but only two of the wires are buried along my driveway to the transformer sitting on a concrete pad in my front yard. I can probably have all the single-phase power that I want by changing out the transformer, but adding that third wire for 3-phase would undoubtedly cost me substantially. The model here is to distribute single-phase and balance the load by connecting individual transformers to two of the three 3-phase lines. --Chuck From alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net Sat Nov 22 22:24:41 2014 From: alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net (Alex McWhirter) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 23:24:41 -0500 Subject: Free: NeXT Mono Slab & Matching Printer In-Reply-To: <547146A5.5050308@gmail.com> References: <547146A5.5050308@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would be interested in it. I love all things related to Steve Jobs, especially NeXT. Would it be something you would want to ship or rather local pickup? Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 22, 2014, at 9:29 PM, Steven Landon wrote: > > About 4 years ago a very generous list member had given me a NeXT Mono Slab, I havent used it very much since then and I think the right thing to do is pass it along to someone else who will appreciate it and use it. > > The only thing I ask is that it never hits ebay and if you decide to get rid of it give it to another person who will love and appreciate it. > > Its a complete system with laser printer and matching NeXT power cord. > > Im located in Farwell Michigan From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Nov 23 00:09:46 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 22:09:46 -0800 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: <54713509.5070004@compsys.to> References: <54700772.6060805@compsys.to> <547029AE.2090403@update.uu.se> <54713509.5070004@compsys.to> Message-ID: <54717A2A.70701@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-22 17:14, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> >On 2014-11-21 19:48, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>> I should have realized that the situation needs to be clarified: >>> >>> (a) As far as I know, (almost?) all soft sectored 8" floppy media >>> are formatted as either single-density (which is the IBM standard - >>> also known as the DEC RX01 option) or double-density.(which >>> is the additional DEC RX02 option). In the latter case, the format >>> is essentially the same, but only the data portion of the sector is >>> double-density. In addition, while a DEC RX01 drive can use only >>> single-density media, a DEC RX02 drive can use BOTH single- >>> density (SSSD) AND double-density (SSDD) media which means >>> that the DEC RX02 drive can read / write media from a DEC RX01 >>> drive - but can boot an RX01 media only if the boot block is first >>> changed from DX to DY. >> >> Incorrect. The RX02 cannot read standard 8" Double Density floppies. >> It can only deal with single density floppies, just like the RX01. > > I am quite sure that your information with regard to Double-Density > floppies is technically correct. Your much greater level of experience > must have acquainted you with actual double-density floppies at some > point. However, it would be helpful if you could provide a specific > example of a real double-density 8" floppy so that we can all share > the same information. The information which would be needed is > the name of the manufacturer of the floppies, the name of the computer > system, the name of the double-density drive, the name of the controller, > the name of the operating system and the name of the device driver used > when a "standard 8" Double Density floppy" is present. If you don't have > all of the above information, present at least as much as you remember. > > Also, at least an estimate of the percentage of "standard 8" Double > Density floppies" in use compared to the standard 8" IBM SSSD > floppies (including both DEC RX01 and DEC RX02) would be > useful so we can judge if "standard 8" Double Density floppies" > were significant. In my opinion, anything less that 1% would be > considered insignificant. > > It is great to contradict what all DEC documentation on 8" RX02 floppies > mentions with respect to double-density media (and given that the DEC > documentation was usually complete and correct - DEC, in this case > much have been providing false information or at least characterizing > "double-density" incorrectly at least as far as you are concerned) and I > am sure that you do have some competing example in mind. What is it? > And why is the statement that DEC makes that the media are double-density > (when the sector size is 256 bytes) "incorrect"? The RX02 is not a standard double density floppy. It is a single density format floppy with a double density encoding for the data area of each sector. That is a very different thing. I have double density IBM floppies at home, and believe me, I have tried using them in RX01 and RX02 drives. They obviously do not work. But it should be obvious even without much more than a cursory glance at the documentation for an RX02. There is no contradictions to what DEC documented compared to what I wrote. DEC RX02 floppies are really the same low level format as RX01 floppies. There is a bit in the sector header for each block that is set to 1 if the sector is actually in double density for an RX02, or 0 for single density. I don't know if IBM themselves ever used that bit in the sector header for anything, but DEC used it for this purpose, and it documented. You can, on a per sector basis, use either single density or double density. The low level format is always the same. Johnny From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 23 02:17:04 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 00:17:04 -0800 Subject: HP2100A luser questions In-Reply-To: <5470C5C3.20103@bitsavers.org> References: <546EDE4D.10205@shiresoft.com> <546EE8E8.6000604@shiresoft.com> <5470B1CE.6020307@bitsavers.org> <5470C5C3.20103@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <584B200E-4DF5-4C90-89B6-B8E82573B1E7@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Nov-22, at 9:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/22/14 7:54 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 11/21/14 3:18 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> Perhaps Al can comment. >>> >> Jeff's collection was mostly superseded by the discovery and archiving of the >> Cupertino binary tapes. I'll see if I can figure out what happened to Jeff's stuff. >> > It was all still there, the index.html was a bit stale so I just converted it to a text > file and renamed the original file to old_index.html. > > I also added .bin suffixes to all the files in paperTapes/tape_images Thanks Al, good to see these accessible. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 02:56:05 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 02:56:05 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> Message-ID: Good News, everyone! ;-) The Osborne Vixen 7" display has been repaired.. And our friend Chuck has earned not one, but two gold stars in the process. To be fair, it's one of those situations wherein if I'd had an appropriate replacement part on-hand, it would all have been over in the first few hours.. because it turns out that the dang horiz. opt. transistor WAS the culprit all along! It had some kind of thermal fault, that made it give up the ghost as the current began to flow in earnest. Per Chuck's suggestion, I picked up (10) MJE13007 transistors from an eBay vendor - cost was less than $5 USD all-done. This was less than the cost of a single NTE 379 - the part that allegedly crossed to the mystery Zenith 1070 item. The packet arrived today, and I wasted no time installing one of the 13007s in place of the original Horizontal Output transistor - a Zenith part marked "1007". Anyway, the display came right up, looking great, and the new HOT runs very, very cool - maybe a 10 degree rise over ambient? So far, so good. A big round of thanks to Chuck, and everyone else who added some useful info to the thread. Thing is, I still have qty. 9 of these 13007 parts sitting around - would anyone like to have a spare or two on the shelf? On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 9:31 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Tony, > > Yeah, I see now how the button acts as a manual starter. Fluorescent > lighting is one of those things I've just never bothered to think about - > so I read the Wiki article on it, and now I've got it down. It's such a > ubiquitous technology, that I've never had the occasion to need to know > much about it.. just replace the bulb when it won't light, and if that > doesn't do it, check the starter.. failing that, replace the ballast or the > whole dang fixture, if it's one of those workbench cheap-o units. > > Oh - and there is one more component in the Luxo. There's a cap wired in > parallel with the tube, probably does double-duty as power factor > correction and saving the starter switch contacts from arc damage when they > break open and the coil kicks back. > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 5:08 PM, tony duell > wrote: > >> > A few weeks ago, I had to put a new AC cord on a Luxo magnifier lamp, >> the >> > type with the 20W circular fluorescent tube. I was really surprised to >> find >> > nothing but an iron-core choke in the base.. no starter device, nada.. >> just >> > a choke in series with the line cord (and the lamp) I assume. It +is+ >> the >> > type where you must hold down the power button for a moment to light >> it, so >> > perhaps that's a (manual?) starting mechanism. But in any case, I was a >> > little puzzled that's all there was to it, so to speak. >> >> The normal fluorescent lamp starter is an automatic switch, effectively. >> Often it's a little >> discharge lamp (argon filled, most of the time) with bimetallic strips >> for electrodes. At switch >> on, the starter lamp strikes, the electrodes get hot, bend and touch. >> This energises the filaments >> in the fluorescent tube. Since the starter is shorted out (by the >> electrodes touching), it cools down, the >> electrodes spring apart. The sudden open circuit causes a large back emf >> from the ballast choke, which >> strikes fluorescent tube (the hot filaments in said tube emit electrons, >> making it a lot easier to strike). >> >> Anyway, if your magnifying lamp is anything like the one I repaired years >> ago, there is a momentary >> contact set on the on button. It's wired in the same way as the automatic >> starter switch in a normal >> fluorescent lamp. When you press and hold the on button, the filaments in >> the fluorescent tube >> warm up. When you release it, you open this circuit, causing the back emf >> from the ballast to >> strike the tube. >> >> -tony >> > > From simski at dds.nl Sun Nov 23 03:41:40 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:41:40 +0100 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5471ABD4.3050806@dds.nl> Cool! that is good news. and thanks for sharing this. another thing to lookout for. simon On 23-11-14 09:56, drlegendre . wrote: > Good News, everyone! ;-) > > The Osborne Vixen 7" display has been repaired.. And our friend Chuck has > earned not one, but two gold stars in the process. > > To be fair, it's one of those situations wherein if I'd had an appropriate > replacement part on-hand, it would all have been over in the first few > hours.. because it turns out that the dang horiz. opt. transistor WAS the > culprit all along! It had some kind of thermal fault, that made it give up > the ghost as the current began to flow in earnest. > > Per Chuck's suggestion, I picked up (10) MJE13007 transistors from an eBay > vendor - cost was less than $5 USD all-done. This was less than the cost of > a single NTE 379 - the part that allegedly crossed to the mystery Zenith > 1070 item. > > The packet arrived today, and I wasted no time installing one of the 13007s > in place of the original Horizontal Output transistor - a Zenith part > marked "1007". Anyway, the display came right up, looking great, and the > new HOT runs very, very cool - maybe a 10 degree rise over ambient? > > So far, so good. A big round of thanks to Chuck, and everyone else who > added some useful info to the thread. Thing is, I still have qty. 9 of > these 13007 parts sitting around - would anyone like to have a spare or two > on the shelf? > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 9:31 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> Tony, >> >> Yeah, I see now how the button acts as a manual starter. Fluorescent >> lighting is one of those things I've just never bothered to think about - >> so I read the Wiki article on it, and now I've got it down. It's such a >> ubiquitous technology, that I've never had the occasion to need to know >> much about it.. just replace the bulb when it won't light, and if that >> doesn't do it, check the starter.. failing that, replace the ballast or the >> whole dang fixture, if it's one of those workbench cheap-o units. >> >> Oh - and there is one more component in the Luxo. There's a cap wired in >> parallel with the tube, probably does double-duty as power factor >> correction and saving the starter switch contacts from arc damage when they >> break open and the coil kicks back. >> >> On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 5:08 PM, tony duell >> wrote: >> >>>> A few weeks ago, I had to put a new AC cord on a Luxo magnifier lamp, >>> the >>>> type with the 20W circular fluorescent tube. I was really surprised to >>> find >>>> nothing but an iron-core choke in the base.. no starter device, nada.. >>> just >>>> a choke in series with the line cord (and the lamp) I assume. It +is+ >>> the >>>> type where you must hold down the power button for a moment to light >>> it, so >>>> perhaps that's a (manual?) starting mechanism. But in any case, I was a >>>> little puzzled that's all there was to it, so to speak. >>> >>> The normal fluorescent lamp starter is an automatic switch, effectively. >>> Often it's a little >>> discharge lamp (argon filled, most of the time) with bimetallic strips >>> for electrodes. At switch >>> on, the starter lamp strikes, the electrodes get hot, bend and touch. >>> This energises the filaments >>> in the fluorescent tube. Since the starter is shorted out (by the >>> electrodes touching), it cools down, the >>> electrodes spring apart. The sudden open circuit causes a large back emf >>> from the ballast choke, which >>> strikes fluorescent tube (the hot filaments in said tube emit electrons, >>> making it a lot easier to strike). >>> >>> Anyway, if your magnifying lamp is anything like the one I repaired years >>> ago, there is a momentary >>> contact set on the on button. It's wired in the same way as the automatic >>> starter switch in a normal >>> fluorescent lamp. When you press and hold the on button, the filaments in >>> the fluorescent tube >>> warm up. When you release it, you open this circuit, causing the back emf >>> from the ballast to >>> strike the tube. >>> >>> -tony >>> >> >> > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Nov 23 05:45:38 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 06:45:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX01 Floppies Message-ID: <20141123114538.BC05F18C164@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > The RX02 is not a standard double density floppy. It is a single > density format floppy with a double density encoding for the data area > of each sector. .. > I have double density IBM floppies at home, and believe me, I have > tried using them in RX01 and RX02 drives. Something I'm mildly curious about, all, knowing very little of the very-low level recording techniques used in single-density, RX02, and 'standard' double-density 8" floppies: The RX02 documentation indicates that the encoding scheme used in the double-density data portion of the sector is 'Modified Miller Code'. (Miller Code I get - it's either 0 or 1 flux reversals per bit time, which is half the maximum flux reversal rate used in the single-density FM encoding - but the Modified Miller is beyond me; it's not explained very clearly, and I don't see any value to forcing my aging neurons to work it out! :-) So, my question: is either of those (Miller and Modified Miller) the same recording scheme used in standard double-density, or do those use something else again? Noel From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Nov 23 09:24:00 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:24:00 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <547152F2.7090801@sydex.com> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> <20141122231355.GB49543@beast.freibergnet.de> <547152F2.7090801@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141123152400.GB4210@beast.freibergnet.de> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/22/2014 03:13 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > >Hmm, I'm from germany and here it is pretty much normal to have 3phase > >230V 50Hz power, at least in rural areas and newer installations in cities. > >Stadard here is 3x32A. > > Well, 3-phase HV distribution is very common here, but transformers for > residential distribution are single-phase as a rule. The distribution > on the utility easement on my property is 6600V 3-phase, but only two of > the wires are buried along my driveway to the transformer sitting on a > concrete pad in my front yard. I can probably have all the single-phase > power that I want by changing out the transformer, but adding that third > wire for 3-phase would undoubtedly cost me substantially. > > The model here is to distribute single-phase and balance the load by > connecting individual transformers to two of the three 3-phase lines. > > --Chuck > Yes, I know. Here the HV Distribution gets transformed down trough 3 phase Transformers for groups of Houses suppying 3x400V AC between the Phases and so 3x230V between each Phase and Ground. There isn't a separate Transformer for each house at all. Even my oven in the kitchen has 3 Phase power and the distribution Paneels (3 of them in my Appartement) have 3 phases. If I want to have this on the wall of my room here I just have to connect a 3phase outlet to the paneel (3x16A CEE is standardized). All images are frome somewhere on the net, not my own.. http://www.frankenspalter.ch/WebRoot/Store/Shops/Frankenspalter/51CA/E94B/5BC3/27E3/0727/5112/18E2/2B71/136995_Stecker_CEE_16A_5_polig_Phasenwechsel_(1).jpg http://www.elektrofachmarkt-online.de/Media/Shop/352403.jpg The circuit breakers in the distribution paneel are connected to phase after phase (L1,L2,L3,L1,L3...). That is what a distribution paneel here is looking like (don't know what the read arrow means, it points to an RCD, an security switch that measusres I-differences from the phases and the Neutral-Conductor (Ground) and if the difference gets above 30mA it cuts the Power) http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff244/Holzprofi/Sicherung.jpg The grey plastic strips below the circuit Breakers are the 3-phase distributor rails that do the L1,L2,L3,L1 .. thing. http://www.dehn.de/pdbRes/DE_DE_Web/480/31828/previewImg/415646/900595.jpg A standard wall outlet is looking like this here: http://www.elektro-kaib.de/images/product_images/original_images/G044003.jpg and thats a (heavy) plug: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Schuko_standard.jpg That one also fits: https://www.netzleitungen.com/media/images/org/Eurostecker_Typ_A1.jpg ..and is used for isolated devices w/o an metal housing. Can't see any advantage of the american system to the german, sorry. Frome here it looks pretty outdated. But I find the british Ring system really clever. They have a Ring distribution with breakers at ~25A and every Plug of every Device has it's own fuse integrated in the Plug. You can't switch Phase and Neutral while rotating the Plug 180 Degrees as it is possible here in Germany since the Plugs and Sockets are assymmetrical. On the other side you can easily kill someone slashing the very heavy Plug over his head... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Nov 23 09:33:18 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:33:18 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <1416706202.2238820.194258137.3CBFE761@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> <1416706202.2238820.194258137.3CBFE761@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20141123153318.GC4210@beast.freibergnet.de> random832 at fastmail.us wrote: > On Sat, Nov 22, 2014, at 19:33, Tothwolf wrote: > > NEMA 14-30, 240V 30A, 4-wire, clothes dryers > > NEMA 14-50, 240V 50A, 4-wire, electric ranges > > NEMA 10-30, 240V 30A, 3-wire, clothes dryers > > NEMA 10-50, 240V 50A, 3-wire, electric ranges > > > > In the US, with systems installed before 1996, it is common to find NEMA > > 10 3-wire devices which lack a ground (earth) pin. > > And in case anyone's wondering what we need four wires for, it's because > our 240V circuits use two opposite phases that are 120 V relative to > ground. Some appliances will use just one phase for some purposes such > as lights and timers. Hmm, not that effective ehy? We also have 4 wires here, 3 phases and one neutral (Star Point) After an Security Device, the RCD it gets split to 5 wires: 3 ?hases, the neutral and an earth line that's connected to the metal enclosure of connected devices. In case of an isolation failure this prevents any injury of persons and the RCD will pop off the power if one of the phases put more than 30mA (thats common) in the eart line. Pictures of a singe ans a 3 phase RCD: http://www.o-digital.com/wholesale-products/2179/2183-2/Residual-Current-Devices--RCD-RCCB-ELCB-Circuit-Breaker-OLL2-51875.html Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From random832 at fastmail.us Sun Nov 23 11:53:26 2014 From: random832 at fastmail.us (random832 at fastmail.us) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 12:53:26 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141123153318.GC4210@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> <1416706202.2238820.194258137.3CBFE761@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20141123153318.GC4210@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <1416765206.2449838.194410881.0C803FD8@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Sun, Nov 23, 2014, at 10:33, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hmm, not that effective ehy? > We also have 4 wires here, 3 phases and one neutral (Star Point) > After an Security Device, the RCD it gets split to 5 wires: 3 ?hases, the > neutral and an earth line that's connected to the metal enclosure of > connected devices. In case of an isolation failure this prevents any > injury > of persons and the RCD will pop off the power if one of the phases put > more > than 30mA (thats common) in the eart line. The four wires in the US are two phases, one neutral, and one ground (for the enclosure). The neutral is used for single-phase components of the device. Older devices, with only three wires, sometimes used the neutral for the enclosure grounding (other times they would use the house's plumbing for it), which is now not allowed, specifically because it results in current going through the same wire used for grounding, which means residual current detection is impossible. This kind of power is called "Split phase" because "two phase" power refers to a different type where they are not 180 degrees apart. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 23 12:35:37 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:35:37 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141123152400.GB4210@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> <20141122231355.GB49543@beast.freibergnet.de> <547152F2.7090801@sydex.com> <20141123152400.GB4210@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <547228F9.2030008@sydex.com> On 11/23/2014 07:24 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Can't see any advantage of the american system to the german, sorry. > Frome here it looks pretty outdated. Well, that's what evolution sometimes gets you. The US 3-wire residential distribution system dates from Edison's 1882 DC system (+100,0,-100). One of Edison's original carbon-filament lamps will screw into any modern residential lamp socket. There are homes in the US still using knob-and-tube wiring, as well as Edison-base fuses in the distribution box. Originally, residential distribution was intended for lighting only, so AC versus DC was not an important concern for the average homeowner. 100V (plus a certain amount for line drop) was selected because it was felt not to be a significant electrocution hazard. Although the NEC dates back to 1897, it never has been the sole governing standard in the USA. For example, in the city were I was raised, non-metallic-sheathed cable was illegal; Rigid conduit was the rule. Kept the very strong IBEW in control, it did. When I worked in a steel mill, the distribution panel in our small 4-man shop looked like 460V, 230V, 115V 60Hz AC, 440V, 110V, 220V 25Hz AC and 250V DC, all with accompanying transformers. Larger shops included 3-phase distribution of both 25Hz and 60Hz. The point is, that the US has adopted a course of compatibility with older standards, rather than a revolutionary course. I understand that parts of Europe were also slow to abandon DC residential lighting. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Nov 23 12:36:33 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 18:36:33 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141123152400.GB4210@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> <20141122231355.GB49543@beast.freibergnet.de> <547152F2.7090801@sydex.com> <20141123152400.GB4210@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <54722931.7060304@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/11/2014 15:24, Holm Tiffe wrote: > But I find the british Ring system really clever. They have a Ring > distribution with breakers at ~25A and every Plug of every Device has it's > own fuse integrated in the Plug. Normally 32A, actually, not 25A. And normally one ring per floor in a domestic property (so I have five rings :-)). -- Pete Pete Turnbull From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 23 14:18:40 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 20:18:40 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <5471295E.7030401@sydex.com> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk>,<5471295E.7030401@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > I note that the higher-power vacuum cleaners ("hoovers") are being > limited in the UK. I was always envious of those. A typical "high Yes, another moronic EU regulation. No idea what the point of it is, probably to please the 'greens' (as I have said many times, when I was a kid. 'green' meant 'naive', and I don't think it has changed much... There was talk of them limiting the power of electric kettles. Come again? Last time I looked, to raise a given volume of water from a giving starting temperature to 100_C and then to vaporise it took a defined amount of energy. The specific heat capacity of water, and the latent heat of vaporisation are known physical quantities, not something you can pass (political) laws about. In fact due to heat losses in the kettle, the higher the input power, the _more_ efficient it is. > power" vac here is 1200W. NEC (our electrical code) says that corded > appliances may not draw more than 80% of the rated load capacity of a I feel the rated load capacity of a circuit should be just that. An outlet rated at 15A (say) should be able to supply 15A for ever. > non-dedicated circuit. For most US homes, standard wall receptacles are > 15A/120V, so that limits the draw by any individual appliance to 12A. > The section (210.23(A)(1)).is a bit more complicated than that, but you > get the idea. What do you do about electic kettles, portable electric heaters, etc? Even portable power tools? Industrial portable power tools (electic drills, etc) in the uk, if not run off internal batteries are 110V. We run them of an isolating transformer with the centre tap of the secondary winding connected to earth. The idea is that in the event of an insulation breakdown so an exposed part ends up conencted to a live part of the tool the maximum voltage the user can get is 55V RMS. Which is painful-ish, but unlikely to be fatal. Anyway. I have a 110V angle grinder here which is specified to have a full load current of 28A (!) > > On the other hand, we aren't troubled with ring mains. There's also no > danger of using a 13A plug fuse for a table lamp--we don't need no > stinking plug fuses! No, instead your table lamp is protected by a 15A breaker in the distibution panel. Hmm.. I am told that in some continental European countries it's common to have a pair of 16 A (230V) outlets protected by a single 32A breaker. And no other protective device. So a table lamp is effectively fused at 32A. No thanks. I can't be the only UK-classiccmper to have a large jar of new 13A cartridge fuses removed from new plugs that I am fitting to and which I have fitted with a 3A fuse. Actually the reputable manufacturers will supply plugs fitted with either a 3A or 13A fuse (in the case of MK (think of them as the UK version of Hubble), the only difference between the 2 types is the fuse, it is quite safe to take a 3A fused one from the factory, fit a 13A fuse and use it on a 3kW electric heater, I have checked this with them). The only problem is that very few places stock the ones with 3A fuses in them. About 20 years ago a local (then) department store mis-ordered MK plugs with 3A fuses. Deciding that they were useless, they put them on sale at 1/4 (about) of list price. I bought all they had on show and asked if they had any more. Yes, another 50 in the stock room. I bought those too. They couldn't understand why I wanted them. -tony From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Nov 23 14:38:32 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 21:38:32 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> tony duell wrote: > > > > I note that the higher-power vacuum cleaners ("hoovers") are being > > limited in the UK. I was always envious of those. A typical "high > > Yes, another moronic EU regulation. No idea what the point of it is, > probably to please the 'greens' (as I have said many times, when I was a > kid. 'green' meant 'naive', and I don't think it has changed much... Hmm... may be that one isn't that dump. In the german mikrocontroller.net forum it was discussed sometimes ago that manufacturers of vacuum cleaners really put Heater resistors into theyr products to rise the pulled power.. Don't get me wron, but I can't see any need for consumer vacuum cleanersi above 1600 Watts..what would you do? Suck in the entire carpet and shredder it? I do have a industrial type vacuum cleaner with 3 phase power rated 1,5KW and a zyklon type "filter" in my warehouse..be sure, that thing really sucks :-)) [..] > > No, instead your table lamp is protected by a 15A breaker in the > distibution panel. Hmm.. I am told that in some continental > European countries it's common to have a pair of 16 A (230V) > outlets protected by a single 32A breaker. And no other protective > device. So a table lamp is effectively fused at 32A. No thanks. No. That's hearsay and forbidden everywhere. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Nov 23 14:42:18 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 21:42:18 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <1416765206.2449838.194410881.0C803FD8@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> <1416706202.2238820.194258137.3CBFE761@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20141123153318.GC4210@beast.freibergnet.de> <1416765206.2449838.194410881.0C803FD8@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20141123204218.GC23813@beast.freibergnet.de> random832 at fastmail.us wrote: > On Sun, Nov 23, 2014, at 10:33, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hmm, not that effective ehy? > > We also have 4 wires here, 3 phases and one neutral (Star Point) > > After an Security Device, the RCD it gets split to 5 wires: 3 ?hases, the > > neutral and an earth line that's connected to the metal enclosure of > > connected devices. In case of an isolation failure this prevents any > > injury > > of persons and the RCD will pop off the power if one of the phases put > > more > > than 30mA (thats common) in the eart line. > > The four wires in the US are two phases, one neutral, and one ground > (for the enclosure). The neutral is used for single-phase components of > the device. Older devices, with only three wires, sometimes used the > neutral for the enclosure grounding (other times they would use the > house's plumbing for it), which is now not allowed, specifically because > it results in current going through the same wire used for grounding, > which means residual current detection is impossible. > > This kind of power is called "Split phase" because "two phase" power > refers to a different type where they are not 180 degrees apart. Yes, I've understood. ..but I think the US should have modernized the entire System long before now.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 23 14:45:34 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 20:45:34 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> References: , <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: [Vacuum cleaner power ratings] > Hmm... may be that one isn't that dump. > In the german mikrocontroller.net forum it was discussed sometimes ago that > manufacturers of vacuum cleaners really put Heater resistors into theyr > products to rise the pulled power.. I can believe that. Like the extra transistors not connected to anything in some early transistor radios so the manufacturers could claim 12 transistors or whatever. > Don't get me wron, but I can't see any need for consumer vacuum cleanersi > above 1600 Watts..what would you do? Suck in the entire carpet and shredder > it? Nor can I, but I dislike stupid regulations even more. > > > > No, instead your table lamp is protected by a 15A breaker in the > > distibution panel. Hmm.. I am told that in some continental > > European countries it's common to have a pair of 16 A (230V) > > outlets protected by a single 32A breaker. And no other protective > > device. So a table lamp is effectively fused at 32A. No thanks. > > No. That's hearsay and forbidden everywhere. I've not seen all the electical regulations for all EU countries... Until I do I will not be convinced that such wiring doesn't exist anywere.. What is the typical German wiring ? A 16A breaker for each outlet? -tony From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Nov 23 14:53:22 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 21:53:22 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <547228F9.2030008@sydex.com> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> <20141122231355.GB49543@beast.freibergnet.de> <547152F2.7090801@sydex.com> <20141123152400.GB4210@beast.freibergnet.de> <547228F9.2030008@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141123205322.GD23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/23/2014 07:24 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > >Can't see any advantage of the american system to the german, sorry. > >Frome here it looks pretty outdated. > > Well, that's what evolution sometimes gets you. The US 3-wire > residential distribution system dates from Edison's 1882 DC system > (+100,0,-100). One of Edison's original carbon-filament lamps will > screw into any modern residential lamp socket. There are homes in the > US still using knob-and-tube wiring, as well as Edison-base fuses in the > distribution box. Originally, residential distribution was intended for > lighting only, so AC versus DC was not an important concern for the > average homeowner. 100V (plus a certain amount for line drop) was > selected because it was felt not to be a significant electrocution hazard. Yes, yes.. Edison 27 Sockets aren't really unknown here and still in use today. As for History, think about old German Names like Siemens or AEG. We had such old Power distribution systems until the fifties I think, there where even DC Supplies or "two phase" 2x110V with the center connected to ground in use. But this gets standardized to times where people mostly had nothing other than light bulbs, irons or tube radios at home so the "collateral damadge" was small... > > Although the NEC dates back to 1897, it never has been the sole > governing standard in the USA. For example, in the city were I was > raised, non-metallic-sheathed cable was illegal; Rigid conduit was the > rule. Kept the very strong IBEW in control, it did. Remember to have seen such tubes with two wires in some sort of tar for isolation when I was a kid.. I'm 51 years now. > > When I worked in a steel mill, the distribution panel in our small 4-man > shop looked like 460V, 230V, 115V 60Hz AC, 440V, 110V, 220V 25Hz AC and > 250V DC, all with accompanying transformers. Larger shops included > 3-phase distribution of both 25Hz and 60Hz. OMG. > > The point is, that the US has adopted a course of compatibility with > older standards, rather than a revolutionary course. Do you think that this was a good decision? > > I understand that parts of Europe were also slow to abandon DC > residential lighting. > > --Chuck > As I already wrote, at least in east germany (behind the iron curtain) this changed in the fifties and that where installations from before ww2. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Nov 23 14:53:48 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 15:53:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Message-ID: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Holm Tiffe > I think the US should have modernized the entire System long before > now.. Two words for you: 'installed base'. :-) Sort of like QWERTY keyboards... :-) Noel From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Nov 23 14:53:02 2014 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 14:53:02 -0600 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: At 09:28 PM 11/21/2014, William Donzelli wrote: >The NASA model 67 reportedly had 66 ounces of gold in the CPU. Even an >early model 30 could have 8 or 9. How could a CPU have four-and-a-half pounds of gold? - John From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Nov 23 15:05:00 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 13:05:00 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: , <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-23 12:45, tony duell wrote: > >>> No, instead your table lamp is protected by a 15A breaker in the >>> distibution panel. Hmm.. I am told that in some continental >>> European countries it's common to have a pair of 16 A (230V) >>> outlets protected by a single 32A breaker. And no other protective >>> device. So a table lamp is effectively fused at 32A. No thanks. >> >> No. That's hearsay and forbidden everywhere. > > I've not seen all the electical regulations for all EU countries... Until I do I will not be convinced that such > wiring doesn't exist anywere.. > > What is the typical German wiring ? A 16A breaker for each outlet? Typical is probably 10A. Same in Sweden, and Switzerland (which admittedly is outside the EU). You might have several outlets on the same 10A breaker. However, all the wiring can take the full 10A, so there is no possibility of actually draw more than the breaker allows, and no way to have more than 10A flowing through the wires. But if your lamp is only designed for 1A, then yes, the house wiring can still deliver 10A to it. How on earth the lamp would be able to draw more than 1A though, would be a mystery. Of course, when things are broken, many interesting things can happen... But unless the fuses are broken, you would not be able to overload the house wiring. The thing described, where a 16A outlet would actually be backed by a 32A breaker would definitely be highly illegal in the countries I know of. But that is pretty much limited to Scandinavia, Germany and Switzerland. Johnny From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Nov 23 15:05:21 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 22:05:21 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20141123210521.GE23813@beast.freibergnet.de> tony duell wrote: > > [Vacuum cleaner power ratings] > > > Hmm... may be that one isn't that dump. > > In the german mikrocontroller.net forum it was discussed sometimes ago that > > manufacturers of vacuum cleaners really put Heater resistors into theyr > > products to rise the pulled power.. > > I can believe that. Like the extra transistors not connected to anything in some > early transistor radios so the manufacturers could claim 12 transistors or whatever. > > > Don't get me wron, but I can't see any need for consumer vacuum cleanersi > > above 1600 Watts..what would you do? Suck in the entire carpet and shredder > > it? > > Nor can I, but I dislike stupid regulations even more. Exactly as I'm. But in this case I'm not that excitedly.. > > > > > > > No, instead your table lamp is protected by a 15A breaker in the > > > distibution panel. Hmm.. I am told that in some continental > > > European countries it's common to have a pair of 16 A (230V) > > > outlets protected by a single 32A breaker. And no other protective > > > device. So a table lamp is effectively fused at 32A. No thanks. > > > > No. That's hearsay and forbidden everywhere. > > I've not seen all the electical regulations for all EU countries... Until I do I will not be convinced that such > wiring doesn't exist anywere.. Even at EU countries this is unlikely, possibly something like that exists in the ex-EU Area. > > What is the typical German wiring ? A 16A breaker for each outlet? > > -tony No, mostly two or three outlets per room at one 16A breaker, Light is a separate circuit in most cases. The Breakers are mostly B16 Type, really fast characteristics. You are unable to get a welder working with them. 5 running computers are also impossible b'cause of the in rush current after a short outage (seldom, but they happen). You have to use C16 or K16 Breakters for that. No Problem with older wire-type fuses (?) with edison sockets. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 23 15:05:37 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 21:05:37 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <547228F9.2030008@sydex.com> References: <20141122225626.GA160354@mooli.org.uk> <20141122231355.GB49543@beast.freibergnet.de> <547152F2.7090801@sydex.com> <20141123152400.GB4210@beast.freibergnet.de>,<547228F9.2030008@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > I understand that parts of Europe were also slow to abandon DC > residential lighting. I believe the last non-50Hz domestic AC supply in the UK was the 100Hz one from the hydroelectric power station in Lynmouth, North Devon. It was destroyed in the floods of 1952, and after that Lynmouth (and Lynton, etc) got the normal 50Hz supply from the national grid. I suspect DC was around as long, or maybe even longer. Of course a lot of (valve) radios and TVs sold over here into the 1960s were claimed to be 'AC/DC universal' models, although of course this was often just a cost-cutting design with no mains transformer (series string heaters and half wave rectifier for the HT (B+) line). On the other hand I remember 1960s TVs with different strapping of the dropping resistor for AC and DC mains (I guess because the heaters depended on the RMS value of the input, the HT on the peak). So I guess DC mains was still around. And I have a Mullard book on making audio amplifiers (must be 1960s), which gives a design for one that will run off DC mains (no, I don't like the idea of a live chassis for such a thing either!) so I guess there was a need for it. -tony From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Nov 23 15:15:00 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 22:15:00 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Holm Tiffe > > > I think the US should have modernized the entire System long before > > now.. > > Two words for you: 'installed base'. :-) > > Sort of like QWERTY keyboards... :-) > > Noel At least my Keyboard ist QWERTZ :-) The two words make sense, but only now. It is to late to change anything, but in the past it was possible. We have taken the chance, the US not. ... but sine you already have 240V outlets, it should be possible to change the distribution slowly to 3 phase power.. it's a matter of time and the only needed thing for compatibility are the transformers with modified secondaries. I don't think that this would ever happen since the US is the biggest US of the world and other people are just dumb aliens, aren't they? :-) But with that stone age power system you are stumbling over your own feet all the time.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 23 15:20:13 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 21:20:13 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> References: , <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> , <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > > What is the typical German wiring ? A 16A breaker for each outlet? > Typical is probably 10A. Same in Sweden, and Switzerland (which > admittedly is outside the EU). > You might have several outlets on the same 10A breaker. However, all the > wiring can take the full 10A, so there is no possibility of actually > draw more than the breaker allows, and no way to have more than 10A > flowing through the wires. OK. But equally if you have multiple outlets on a circuit (presumably often in the same room), you can't draw more than 10A total. Some of my classic computers would not like that! > But if your lamp is only designed for 1A, then yes, the house wiring can > still deliver 10A to it. How on earth the lamp would be able to draw > more than 1A though, would be a mystery. To be fair, most pvercurrent faults on small appliances result in an almost dead short across the mains. And a 10A or 16A breaker will then trip long before a 1A cable catches fire. > The thing described, where a 16A outlet would actually be backed by a > 32A breaker would definitely be highly illegal in the countries I know > of. But that is pretty much limited to Scandinavia, Germany and Switzerland. At one time the UK regulations specifically allowed 3 off 5A (round pin, BS546) socket outlets on a single circuit protected by a 15A rewireable fuse. These plugs were unfused. There was also (and in accordance with the regulations) an adaptor to plug a 2A rated plug into a 15A outlet, again no fuses other than the 15A circuit fuse (radial circuit). Mind you the old wiring regulations, at least in the UK, make horrifying reading. At one time it was required to put a fuse in both the live and neutral wires (and if the latter failed the whole circuit was live). Now of course you put a fuse in the live only. A protective device may break both wires, it may monitor the current in both wires, but what it must not do is break the neutral and not the live. So the interlocked breakers as found on, say, a PDP11/34 are fine, but separate breakers or fuses most certainly are not. I believe at one time in the UK, electricity for lighting was more expensive per kWh than that supplied for 'power' (which mean heating, cooking, etc). As a result, appliances below a certain power had to be connected to the lighting circuit, which often didn't have an earth wire. Ho-hum... -tony From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Nov 23 15:21:02 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 22:21:02 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> References: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20141123212102.GG23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-11-23 12:45, tony duell wrote: > > > >>>No, instead your table lamp is protected by a 15A breaker in the > >>>distibution panel. Hmm.. I am told that in some continental > >>>European countries it's common to have a pair of 16 A (230V) > >>>outlets protected by a single 32A breaker. And no other protective > >>>device. So a table lamp is effectively fused at 32A. No thanks. > >> > >>No. That's hearsay and forbidden everywhere. > > > >I've not seen all the electical regulations for all EU countries... Until > >I do I will not be convinced that such > >wiring doesn't exist anywere.. > > > >What is the typical German wiring ? A 16A breaker for each outlet? > > Typical is probably 10A. Same in Sweden, and Switzerland (which > admittedly is outside the EU). No. 16A is typical for actual installations. Nevertheless there are 10A and 6A circuit breakers too, but each outlet and each plug is rated 16A. 10A is history. > You might have several outlets on the same 10A breaker. However, all the > wiring can take the full 10A, so there is no possibility of actually > draw more than the breaker allows, and no way to have more than 10A > flowing through the wires. > > But if your lamp is only designed for 1A, then yes, the house wiring can > still deliver 10A to it. How on earth the lamp would be able to draw > more than 1A though, would be a mystery. Even if the lamp is designed to for 1A it's wiring has to be able to withstand 16A so if a short occurs the fuse is blown with no risk at all. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Nov 23 15:26:40 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 22:26:40 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20141123212640.GH23813@beast.freibergnet.de> tony duell wrote: > > > What is the typical German wiring ? A 16A breaker for each outlet? > > > Typical is probably 10A. Same in Sweden, and Switzerland (which > > admittedly is outside the EU). > > You might have several outlets on the same 10A breaker. However, all the > > wiring can take the full 10A, so there is no possibility of actually > > draw more than the breaker allows, and no way to have more than 10A > > flowing through the wires. > > OK. But equally if you have multiple outlets on a circuit (presumably often in > the same room), you can't draw more than 10A total. Some of my classic > computers would not like that! Yes, but this is your problem than. This wiring is to be meant for an average living room, not for an computer room with big computers. If you ant to do this, simply install 3 phase CEE Outlets. > > > But if your lamp is only designed for 1A, then yes, the house wiring can > > still deliver 10A to it. How on earth the lamp would be able to draw > > more than 1A though, would be a mystery. > > To be fair, most pvercurrent faults on small appliances result in an almost dead > short across the mains. And a 10A or 16A breaker will then trip long before a 1A > cable catches fire. Thats eaxcatly how this is designed. The minimal Gauge for 230V wires is 0,5mm^2. > > > > The thing described, where a 16A outlet would actually be backed by a > > 32A breaker would definitely be highly illegal in the countries I know > > of. But that is pretty much limited to Scandinavia, Germany and Switzerland. > > At one time the UK regulations specifically allowed 3 off 5A (round pin, BS546) > socket outlets on a single circuit protected by a 15A rewireable fuse. These plugs > were unfused. There was also (and in accordance with the regulations) an adaptor > to plug a 2A rated plug into a 15A outlet, again no fuses other than the 15A circuit > fuse (radial circuit). > > Mind you the old wiring regulations, at least in the UK, make horrifying reading. At > one time it was required to put a fuse in both the live and neutral wires (and if the > latter failed the whole circuit was live). Now of course you put a fuse in the live only. :-O Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 23 15:27:39 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 21:27:39 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141123212102.GG23813@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se>, <20141123212102.GG23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: > > Even if the lamp is designed to for 1A it's wiring has to be able to > withstand 16A so if a short occurs the fuse is blown with no risk at all. Are you saying that all portable electrical devices sold in Germany are wired with 16A flexible cable? I've seen plenty of cables with a German plug on the end that look to me like 6A flexible cable. To be fair, in the event of a dead short, a 16A breaker will trip long before a 6A (or even a 1A) flexible cable would catch fire. And it's hard to think of a fault on a lamp (or most other devices) that causes it to draw more current than it should, but not be a dead short. But... -tony From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Nov 23 15:36:36 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 22:36:36 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <20141123212102.GG23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20141123213636.GI23813@beast.freibergnet.de> tony duell wrote: > > > > Even if the lamp is designed to for 1A it's wiring has to be able to > > withstand 16A so if a short occurs the fuse is blown with no risk at all. > > Are you saying that all portable electrical devices sold in Germany are > wired with 16A flexible cable? I've seen plenty of cables with a German > plug on the end that look to me like 6A flexible cable. No. It has to withstand a short with an 16A circuit breaker in the circuit. that 6A looking plugs with only two pins are "Euro-Stecker" for small security isolated devices. I have a small workshop down in the backyard that was a washing room in the past. I've installed a new distribution paneel with a counter for 3 phase power (lathe, drill press, grinders, welders)in approx 2000 and had to use 4x16mm^2 copper wire from the house distribution to the paneel with 32A Circuit breakers b'cause of the 63A fuses in the house distribution box (?). The gauge must be sufficient to withstand the current to blow the house fuses. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 23 15:38:56 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 21:38:56 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141123212640.GH23813@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> , <20141123212640.GH23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: > > > OK. But equally if you have multiple outlets on a circuit (presumably often in > > the same room), you can't draw more than 10A total. Some of my classic > > computers would not like that! > > Yes, but this is your problem than. > This wiring is to be meant for an average living room, not for an computer > room with big computers. > If you ant to do this, simply install 3 phase CEE Outlets. Are those the ones that we used to call 'BS4343'? Red for 415V, blue for 230V, yellow for 110V, used for single and 3 phase over here ? Not common domestically in the UK, but AFAIK they are permitted, and do turn up occasionally. Presumably the German regulations would permit several 16A outlets in the same room, each proteced with its own 16A breaker. > Thats eaxcatly how this is designed. The minimal Gauge for 230V wires is > 0,5mm^2. Which to me is a 3A cable and I'd protect it with a 3A cartridge fuse in the plug :-) I believe the is a country (probably one that was under British rule at one time) that uses BS1363 sockets (our 13A ones with) unfused plugs on a 15A radial circuit. No real problem, the socket will carry 15A if properly made, but if the plugs/cables end up in the UK, they can be dangerous for the obvious reason. I also dislike -- a lot - the unfused wall wart PSUs/chargers we get in the UK. They plug directly into the 13A socket outlet, and thus the only protective devices is the 32A (or 30A) breaker/fuse in the consumer unit. I normally run them from a fused multi-socket block on my bench, at least then there is some smaller fuse im the circuit. > > Mind you the old wiring regulations, at least in the UK, make horrifying reading. At > > one time it was required to put a fuse in both the live and neutral wires (and if the > > latter failed the whole circuit was live). Now of course you put a fuse in the live only. > > :-O Indeed. Note that its not that you _may_ put a fuse in both wires, it that's you _must_. Thank $deity that rule got removed... -tony From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Nov 23 15:51:39 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 13:51:39 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141123212102.GG23813@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> <20141123212102.GG23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <547256EB.3010308@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-23 13:21, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2014-11-23 12:45, tony duell wrote: >>> >>>>> No, instead your table lamp is protected by a 15A breaker in the >>>>> distibution panel. Hmm.. I am told that in some continental >>>>> European countries it's common to have a pair of 16 A (230V) >>>>> outlets protected by a single 32A breaker. And no other protective >>>>> device. So a table lamp is effectively fused at 32A. No thanks. >>>> >>>> No. That's hearsay and forbidden everywhere. >>> >>> I've not seen all the electical regulations for all EU countries... Until >>> I do I will not be convinced that such >>> wiring doesn't exist anywere.. >>> >>> What is the typical German wiring ? A 16A breaker for each outlet? >> >> Typical is probably 10A. Same in Sweden, and Switzerland (which >> admittedly is outside the EU). > > No. 16A is typical for actual installations. Nevertheless there are 10A and > 6A circuit breakers too, but each outlet and each plug is rated 16A. > 10A is history. Really? All my circuits both in Sweden and Switzerland have 10A breakers on them. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the actual wiring might be designed for more, but that's what *all* my breakers are at. I don't know what the actual plugs are rated for. But for computers, the part that plugs into the computer are rated for 10A. There is a 16A rated model, which you might find on tea kettles, but every computer item I own (or even have owned) have the 10A version. (And Sweden use the same SHUKO plugs you have in Germany.) >> You might have several outlets on the same 10A breaker. However, all the >> wiring can take the full 10A, so there is no possibility of actually >> draw more than the breaker allows, and no way to have more than 10A >> flowing through the wires. >> >> But if your lamp is only designed for 1A, then yes, the house wiring can >> still deliver 10A to it. How on earth the lamp would be able to draw >> more than 1A though, would be a mystery. > > Even if the lamp is designed to for 1A it's wiring has to be able to > withstand 16A so if a short occurs the fuse is blown with no risk at all. Hmm. Possible. I don't know what the regulations are around that. I know that some wiring for small lamps seem to have pretty thin wiring. But as Tony remarked - if something actually breaks, it's normally a short circuit, so it will immediately trip both 10A and 16A breakers anyway, and the lamp wiring never have a chance to even start heating up. Johnny From jon at jonworld.com Sun Nov 23 15:54:57 2014 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 22:54:57 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <547256EB.3010308@update.uu.se> References: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> <20141123212102.GG23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <547256EB.3010308@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > Really? All my circuits both in Sweden and Switzerland have 10A breakers on them. > I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the actual wiring might be designed for more, but that's what *all* my breakers are at. I?m a recent transplant to Belgium. I just walked across the room to check the wiring cabinet in my apartment. The building dates from the 1830s but was heavily remodeled by my landlord in the early 2000s. All my breakers are 20A. My apartment also has electric radiators for heat and electric water heaters. Maybe that?s why Belgium will have rolling blackouts this winter! :D From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 16:00:15 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 17:00:15 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <20141123205539.71D312073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> <20141123205539.71D312073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > How could a CPU have four-and-a-half pounds of gold? First, 66 oz. of gold really is not all that much metal. If you ever have the chance to hold a pound of gold, take it - it is impressive how a little lump can be so heavy. Second, the 2075 was really freakin' big. -- Will From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Nov 23 16:05:16 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 23:05:16 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> <20141123212640.GH23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20141123220516.GJ23813@beast.freibergnet.de> tony duell wrote: > > > > > OK. But equally if you have multiple outlets on a circuit (presumably often in > > > the same room), you can't draw more than 10A total. Some of my classic > > > computers would not like that! > > > > Yes, but this is your problem than. > > This wiring is to be meant for an average living room, not for an computer > > room with big computers. > > If you ant to do this, simply install 3 phase CEE Outlets. > > Are those the ones that we used to call 'BS4343'? Red for 415V, blue for 230V, yellow for > 110V, used for single and 3 phase over here ? Not common domestically in the UK, but > AFAIK they are permitted, and do turn up occasionally. Yes, seems to be the same. For 230V they are seldom used, you see them on camping places mostly. But hey are common for 3phase power now, at least for 3x16 and 3x32A. Have seen some yellow ones in a box in the workshop of an electrican some years before, but never again. > > Presumably the German regulations would permit several 16A outlets in the same room, each > proteced with its own 16A breaker. Yes. There is no problem with that. > > > Thats eaxcatly how this is designed. The minimal Gauge for 230V wires is > > 0,5mm^2. > > Which to me is a 3A cable and I'd protect it with a 3A cartridge fuse in the plug :-) Yes, steady current. But it can short 16A secured circuits w/o to vaporize... > > I believe the is a country (probably one that was under British rule at one time) that uses BS1363 > sockets (our 13A ones with) unfused plugs on a 15A radial circuit. No real problem, the socket will > carry 15A if properly made, but if the plugs/cables end up in the UK, they can be dangerous for the > obvious reason. Yes, that's pretty clear. I've got some chinese "cold device cables" (translation from german decription that's common here) with 16A Plugs and the typical in computer PSU used conncetors at the other end in boxes with new computer PSU's. The print on the cable stated "16A 3x0.75mm^2". I had all kind of trouble with that cables, the contact springs wherent really springs, at least not made from "Federbronce" (how we call that here) and the cables got warm .. I've cut such a thing in to peaces...exactly 4 thin twisted wires in each plastic isolated wire and in the plug they where not soldered, only twisted trough a hole in the pin from the plug..cheap and exremely dangerous... I've put all that cables into the dumpster container from an recycler and pulled out old white colored cables from it. People there where courious what I'm doing there, dropping new cables to get old ones? > > I also dislike -- a lot - the unfused wall wart PSUs/chargers we get in the UK. They plug directly into the > 13A socket outlet, and thus the only protective devices is the 32A (or 30A) breaker/fuse in the consumer > unit. I normally run them from a fused multi-socket block on my bench, at least then there is some smaller > fuse im the circuit. Since the primitive transformer type wall warts are forbidden for efficiency purposes now, they have switch mode PSUs this days and they contain fuses or fuse resistores now. I don't like switchmode PSUs for everything (because of the radiations) and cheap chinese things aren't really loocking secure from the inside, but I really hate that thermo fused primitive wall warts where the transformer cores are got saturated w/o any load at the secondary, overheated this way and shoot their thermo fuses.. > > > > Mind you the old wiring regulations, at least in the UK, make horrifying reading. At > > > one time it was required to put a fuse in both the live and neutral wires (and if the > > > latter failed the whole circuit was live). Now of course you put a fuse in the live only. > > > > :-O > > Indeed. Note that its not that you _may_ put a fuse in both wires, it that's you _must_. Thank > $deity that rule got removed... > > -tony Thanks god... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 23 16:12:15 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 14:12:15 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 2014-Nov-23, at 1:15 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> From: Holm Tiffe >> >>> I think the US should have modernized the entire System long before >>> now.. >> >> Two words for you: 'installed base'. :-) ... > The two words make sense, but only now. It is to late to change anything, > but in the past it was possible. We have taken the chance, the US not. > ... > but sine you already have 240V outlets, it should be possible to change the > distribution slowly to 3 phase power.. it's a matter of time and the only > needed thing for compatibility are the transformers with modified > secondaries. > I don't think that this would ever happen since the US is the biggest US of > the world and other people are just dumb aliens, aren't they? :-) All these systems have their varying benefits and detriments. Between fire safety, shock safety, simplicity, ease of wiring, power efficiency, copper efficiency, they all present a varying mix of trade-offs. In Germany you readily have 3-phase in your house, but 3-phase wiring is not as simple as split-phase. The ring system in Britain with fuses in the plugs provides a safety factor of appropriately limited current at the wall. On the other hand, in NA the vast majority of in-wall house wiring is done with #14 wire(15A circuits), which is a lot easier to work than whichever gauge Britain uses for 25A or 32A circuits. The benefit of the North American split-phase system vs EU/Britain is you have the energy & copper-efficiency of 240V available for heavy appliances, but you have the safety factor throughout the house of never having more than 120V between you and earth. Yes, it makes me a little nervous having 15A available in the simple lamp socket at the end of #18 wire, but it would make me more nervous if it was 240V at 3A. > But with that stone age power system you are stumbling over your own feet > all the time.. NA has gone through various evolutions: getting rid of 25Hz, getting rid of DC mains, requiring grounded outlets as standard, in my jurisdiction (for example) distribution ('pole-top') has evolved from 12KV to 25KV, etc. The split-phase system may be the oldest but for residential use it's quite elegant and efficient. 3-phase is there for where it's needed, commercial or multi-unit residential buildings, it's done for smallish pump-houses within residential neighbourhoods. In the big picture I haven't seen anything to suggest an overall benefit to changing to some other system. One could well suggest the reverse, that EU move away from that "highly dangerous" 240V system. From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Nov 23 16:21:01 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 23:21:01 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <547256EB.3010308@update.uu.se> References: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> <20141123212102.GG23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <547256EB.3010308@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20141123222101.GK23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-11-23 13:21, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > >>On 2014-11-23 12:45, tony duell wrote: > >>> > >>>>>No, instead your table lamp is protected by a 15A breaker in the > >>>>>distibution panel. Hmm.. I am told that in some continental > >>>>>European countries it's common to have a pair of 16 A (230V) > >>>>>outlets protected by a single 32A breaker. And no other protective > >>>>>device. So a table lamp is effectively fused at 32A. No thanks. > >>>> > >>>>No. That's hearsay and forbidden everywhere. > >>> > >>>I've not seen all the electical regulations for all EU countries... Until > >>>I do I will not be convinced that such > >>>wiring doesn't exist anywere.. > >>> > >>>What is the typical German wiring ? A 16A breaker for each outlet? > >> > >>Typical is probably 10A. Same in Sweden, and Switzerland (which > >>admittedly is outside the EU). > > > >No. 16A is typical for actual installations. Nevertheless there are 10A and > >6A circuit breakers too, but each outlet and each plug is rated 16A. > >10A is history. > > Really? All my circuits both in Sweden and Switzerland have 10A breakers > on them. > I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the actual wiring might be > designed for more, but that's what *all* my breakers are at. > > I don't know what the actual plugs are rated for. But for computers, the > part that plugs into the computer are rated for 10A. There is a 16A > rated model, which you might find on tea kettles, but every computer > item I own (or even have owned) have the 10A version. > > (And Sweden use the same SHUKO plugs you have in Germany.) Have a greyish standard computer cable with "Schuko Stecker" and angeled IEC320 C13 connector at he other end in my hands now. On the "Schuko Stecker" I read this: 10-16 ----- 250V Nothing like this on the other end. Schuko is the short form of "Schutzkontakt" Stecker which means the 3rd contact for grounding purposes. I've googeled and learned now that this Plug is also known as CEE 7/4 and when it has a hole for the france type ground contact pin additionally it is called CEE 7/7. It seems to be rated 10A steady and 16A short time. Nevertheless the now standard circuit breakers are B16 Type and they are much cheaper then all other variants since they are the mostly used ones. > > >>You might have several outlets on the same 10A breaker. However, all the > >>wiring can take the full 10A, so there is no possibility of actually > >>draw more than the breaker allows, and no way to have more than 10A > >>flowing through the wires. > >> > >>But if your lamp is only designed for 1A, then yes, the house wiring can > >>still deliver 10A to it. How on earth the lamp would be able to draw > >>more than 1A though, would be a mystery. > > > >Even if the lamp is designed to for 1A it's wiring has to be able to > >withstand 16A so if a short occurs the fuse is blown with no risk at all. > > Hmm. Possible. I don't know what the regulations are around that. I know > that some wiring for small lamps seem to have pretty thin wiring. But as > Tony remarked - if something actually breaks, it's normally a short > circuit, so it will immediately trip both 10A and 16A breakers anyway, > and the lamp wiring never have a chance to even start heating up. > > Johnny Yes, exactly like this it was meant. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Nov 23 16:27:40 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 23:27:40 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20141123222740.GL23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Brent Hilpert wrote: [..] > > NA has gone through various evolutions: getting rid of 25Hz, getting rid of DC mains, requiring grounded outlets as standard, in my jurisdiction (for example) distribution ('pole-top') has evolved from 12KV to 25KV, etc. > > The split-phase system may be the oldest but for residential use it's quite elegant and efficient. 3-phase is there for where it's needed, commercial or multi-unit residential buildings, it's done for smallish pump-houses within residential neighbourhoods. In the big picture I haven't seen anything to suggest an overall benefit to changing to some other system. > > One could well suggest the reverse, that EU move away from that "highly dangerous" 240V system. Oh yes? as far as I know that is the Voltage most countries in the world use... and the americans in their split phase system too. :-) I don't wanted to kick you to convert this now ... :-) going to sleep now, it's 11:27PM here.. good night, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From rob at bitscience.ca Sun Nov 23 16:34:44 2014 From: rob at bitscience.ca (Robert Ferguson) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 14:34:44 -0800 Subject: FS: HP 16500C logic analyzer system Message-ID: <05C21C84-6533-47B7-81BD-6ECABA536E78@bitscience.ca> I?m getting rid of my HP 16500C logic analyzer. It?s got the 16550A and 16517A modules. The former has 96 data channels and 6 clock/data channels, all at 100MHz; the latter provides 16 channels @ up to 4GHz. It comes with all the pods/probes and many connectors, as well as the manuals and training materials. It passes all self-tests. I?m in Vancouver, BC. The LA is probably too big to ship economically, but if someone in the BC lower mainland or Washington state is interested, let me know. I?ve got it up on Craigslist for a firm $300 (http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/nvn/ele/4775079685.html ), but list members can make me an offer. Thanks, Rob Ferguson From b4 at gewt.net Sun Nov 23 14:45:53 2014 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 15:45:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Net-boot and install OpenVMS 7.x on MicroVAX 3x00? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Nov 2014, Sean Caron wrote: > Hi all, > > While I'm saving up my pennies for a Q-bus SCSI card, does anyone know if > it's possible to do both a net-boot and a fresh VMS installation given an > existing VAXcluster where I do have a SCSI CD-ROM hooked up to one of the > machines? > I believe it's possible...but it would require a host-based, or hardware-based infoserver if I am remembering right. -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From b4 at gewt.net Sun Nov 23 14:45:53 2014 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 15:45:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Net-boot and install OpenVMS 7.x on MicroVAX 3x00? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Nov 2014, Sean Caron wrote: > Hi all, > > While I'm saving up my pennies for a Q-bus SCSI card, does anyone know if > it's possible to do both a net-boot and a fresh VMS installation given an > existing VAXcluster where I do have a SCSI CD-ROM hooked up to one of the > machines? > I believe it's possible...but it would require a host-based, or hardware-based infoserver if I am remembering right. -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Sun Nov 23 16:18:23 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 22:18:23 +0000 (WET) Subject: Net-boot and install OpenVMS 7.x on MicroVAX 3x00? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 22 Nov 2014 11:39:46 -0500" Message-ID: <01PFB1BUAYEC004LPD@beyondthepale.ie> > >I don't just want to boot it as a satellite node, I just want to use the >net-boot to bootstrap an installation since I don't have a local CD-ROM on >that machine to boot from. > If you are booting from the network, you need to be able to continue to access the system disk after initial boot and the only supported way to do this is as part of a cluster with the node or device serving the system disk. > >If I can get it booted as a satellite maybe there's something "unsupported" >I can do to perform a network installation? > It's not necessary to do anything unsupported. As Rob suggested, boot as a satellite, copy the bits you need to a locally attached disk and then install from that. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 23 16:44:16 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 14:44:16 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <54726340.10707@sydex.com> On 11/23/2014 01:15 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: . > but sine you already have 240V outlets, it should be possible to change the > distribution slowly to 3 phase power.. it's a matter of time and the only > needed thing for compatibility are the transformers with modified > secondaries. "Low hanging fruit". Most commercial office and retail buildings already have 3-phase supplies because of installed HVAC electrical needs. I wouldn't mind that--the heat pump on my house has to have the compressor and fan motor capacitors checked annually because they do degrade with time. I just replaced the 135 uF 330VAC start capacitor on the compressor--it has two capacitors; a 135-160 uF start and a 40 uF run as well as a starting relay--modern Chinese capacitors do not deliver the life that old PCB-containing oil ones did. If the compressor instead used a 3-phase motor, none of that would be necessary. The last starting cap simply blew its top, even though it's a vented unit and only 3 years old. But if you'd ask any utilities manager why not move to 3-phase residential distribution, you'd get the response that residential distribution was, in fact, 3 phase--one phase per household. To answer Tony's question about power tools, almost all hand/portable power tools are rated for 15A or less. My router (Bosch, if it matters), claims a rating of 3 hp and maximum current of 15A at 120V. Yes, I know that 3 hp is about 2200W and therefore almost 19A at 120V. Such is the nonsense that goes for nameplate ratings in the US. Vacuum cleaners are rated at the motor's "locked rotor" current draw, as another example. Large power tools, such as a floor sander or table saw are often 240V units, meaning special wiring and outlets. Wasn't the UK slow to standardize on receptacles and plugs? I seem to recall a mention that some appliances long ago were supplied without plugs altogether; the customer was supposed to install whatever was suitable. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 23 16:56:11 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 22:56:11 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141123220516.GJ23813@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> <20141123212640.GH23813@beast.freibergnet.de> , <20141123220516.GJ23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: > > If you ant to do this, simply install 3 phase CEE Outlets. > > > > Are those the ones that we used to call 'BS4343'? Red for 415V, blue for 230V, yellow for > > 110V, used for single and 3 phase over here ? Not common domestically in the UK, but > > AFAIK they are permitted, and do turn up occasionally. > > Yes, seems to be the same. For 230V they are seldom used, you see them on The 230V ones are relatively uncommon over here (although most electical suppliers would stock them, they are not commonly used, certainly not in normal houses). They do turn up when you need a socket rated at more then 13A (these follow an approximate doubling sequence -- 16A, 32A ,63A, 125A) > camping places mostly. But hey are common for 3phase power now, at least Sure. Over here there are both 4 pin (3 phases and earth), and 5 pin (ditto, with the star point neutral) available. Incidentally, for those who have not come across these connectors, you can't put a plug into the 'wrong' socket. A blue 3 pin 16A (used for 230v single phase) socket will not take a yellow 3 pin 16A plug (110V) The mains input on my lathe is a 230V 16A plug made as part of the switchbox moulding. The supplied cable has a socket to fit that (blue, of course) and a normal BS1363 plug on the other end. > for 3x16 and 3x32A. Have seen some yellow ones in a box in the workshop of > an electrican some years before, but never again. The 110V ones are very common here. Used on industrial portable power tools (which as I mentioned are 110V) > I've got some chinese "cold device cables" (translation from german > decription that's common here) with 16A Plugs and the typical in computer I assume that's the normal IEC 320 C13/C14 connector. We call it 'cold condition', the 'hot codition' one is the one with the notch between the live/neutral pins as used on kettles, etc. I can remember when for some unknown reason the former was rated at 6A in the UK, the latter at 10A, for all the current-carrying parts were identical. Perhaps it was that the 'hot condition' insulation could withstand a greater temperature rise > PSU used conncetors at the other end in boxes with new computer PSU's. > The print on the cable stated "16A 3x0.75mm^2". I had all kind of trouble > with that cables, the contact springs wherent really springs, at least not > made from "Federbronce" (how we call that here) and the cables got warm .. Phosphor Bronze? > I've cut such a thing in to peaces...exactly 4 thin twisted wires in each > plastic isolated wire and in the plug they where not soldered, only twisted > trough a hole in the pin from the plug..cheap and exremely dangerous... I've heard about a number of absolutely lethal cables that were sold over here. Not from name brands of course. Things like unfused plugs, plugs with a fuse that wasn't actually in the circuit, fuses that exploded if there was a short circuit (they are supposed to be HRC sand-filled fuses),wires far too thin, no earth wire, live/neutral swappd etc. Quite often I just don't trust moudled mains leads. I buy a rewireable IEC320 socket, a length of cable and a known-brand BS1363 plug. That way I know it's wired correctly and safely. > Since the primitive transformer type wall warts are forbidden for > efficiency purposes now, they have switch mode PSUs this days and Another daft regulation IMHO. I wonder... Since these are low power devices anyway, how does the polution caused by the wasted energy in the linear supply compare to that caused by making and scrapping the SMPSU, particularly since the latter often have a ridiculously short life, > they contain fuses or fuse resistores now. So they claim. I am not convinced. I am more convinced that the sample submitted for approval has a fusible resistor... That sold has saved a fraction of a penny/cent. > I don't like switchmode PSUs for everything (because of the radiations) and What radiation? > cheap chinese things aren't really loocking secure from the inside, but I > really hate that thermo fused primitive wall warts where the transformer > cores are got saturated w/o any load at the secondary, overheated this way Unless the transformer was underspecified (too small a core area), this should not happen. I have never had a mains transformer saturate like that. What I have had is wall warts with several output connectors (often a cross-shaped plug with 4 'pins' to fit 2.5mm jack, 3.5mm jack, 2.1mm coaxial power and 2.5mm coaxial power, a separate 1.3mm coaxial power, and another seprate PP3-type battery clip) where the output can be short-circuited if the plugs touch. On at least one occasion the wall wart became hot enough to melt its casing, but the transformer primary (supposed to fuse in a safe way under overload did not open. Again, for anything I depend on I tend to make my own PSU. WIth a 50Hz transformer feeding possibly linear or switching regulators. And with at least mains and output side fuses and often a thermal fuse. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 23 17:05:12 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 15:05:12 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141123222740.GL23813@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <20141123222740.GL23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <90E5A081-B403-43E7-9C45-E7FA7376BD04@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Nov-23, at 2:27 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: > [..] >> >> NA has gone through various evolutions: getting rid of 25Hz, getting rid of DC mains, requiring grounded outlets as standard, in my jurisdiction (for example) distribution ('pole-top') has evolved from 12KV to 25KV, etc. >> >> The split-phase system may be the oldest but for residential use it's quite elegant and efficient. 3-phase is there for where it's needed, commercial or multi-unit residential buildings, it's done for smallish pump-houses within residential neighbourhoods. In the big picture I haven't seen anything to suggest an overall benefit to changing to some other system. >> >> One could well suggest the reverse, that EU move away from that "highly dangerous" 240V system. > > Oh yes? as far as I know that is the Voltage most countries in the world > use Yes, one of the lasting legacies of empire. > ... and the americans in their split phase system too. :-) As I said, with the split phase-system you have 240V available but not more than 120V between you and earth. There's a big difference there compared to 240V to earth. (The neutral/common is bonded to earth in the EU, isn't it?) > I don't wanted to kick you to convert this now ... :-) > > going to sleep now, it's 11:27PM here.. > good night, From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 23 17:12:15 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 23:12:15 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <54726340.10707@sydex.com> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de>,<54726340.10707@sydex.com> Message-ID: > But if you'd ask any utilities manager why not move to 3-phase > residential distribution, you'd get the response that residential > distribution was, in fact, 3 phase--one phase per household. Over here that is often the case. The distribution cable is 3 phase and different houses along the road get one of the phases brought in. For some reason (read : because they can get away with it), having all 3 phases brought into one house is difficult to get and expensive. > To answer Tony's question about power tools, almost all hand/portable > power tools are rated for 15A or less. My router (Bosch, if it > matters), claims a rating of 3 hp and maximum current of 15A at 120V. Over here, a motor rating in W refers to the electical input power, one in hp to the mechanical output power. At least from reputable companies. > Yes, I know that 3 hp is about 2200W and therefore almost 19A at 120V. > Such is the nonsense that goes for nameplate ratings in the US. Vacuum > cleaners are rated at the motor's "locked rotor" current draw, as > another example. I guess the ratings of audio power amplifiers is another. I am still wondering why the world has an energy problem given I can get a 360W PC speaker system that runs off a 12V 1A PSU. > Wasn't the UK slow to standardize on receptacles and plugs? I seem to Strictly it still hasn't. While you are very likely to find the BS1363 13A socket outlet just about everywhere, the BS546 round pin sockets are still allowed even on new wiring (AFAIK, they certainly were a few years ago). And there are other permitted sockets too. > recall a mention that some appliances long ago were supplied without > plugs altogether; the customer was supposed to install whatever was > suitable. Yes. Now it is a legal requirement that portable equiment is supplied with a fitted BS1363 plug. I am sure there are exceptions, e.g. for 110V power tools, etc. In many ways I wish things still came with no plug. It would mean I wouldn't have to cut off the possibly dangerous moulded plug first... In the 1950s/1960s all sorts of plugs were common over here. Repair workshops for radios, etc, often had an array of different mains sockets at each bench. Of course there were also 'suicide leads' (mains plug to croc clips) which you hid from the safety inspector. Field service engineers (for domestic TVs, kichen appliances, etc) would have a problem plugging in their soldering iron, etc. There were a variety of universal plugs made, some safer than others. I bought a second-hand slide projector over here and it came with about 10 mains leads ending in assorted main plugs 2 and 3 pin, even a bayonet lampholder plug. The old owner had used it for illustrating his lectures and he never knew what socket he would find in the lecture hall... -tony --Chuck From wrh at wootsie.com Sun Nov 23 17:16:03 2014 From: wrh at wootsie.com (wrh at wootsie.com) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 17:16:03 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 Message-ID: Hello, I recently recused a TRS-80 Model 16. It's in beautiful condition and appears to be fully functional. I received some 8" SS,DD 128/F floppies with it, but unfortunately none of them appear to have anything on them (that I can tell) - receive "BOOT ERROR RS" on this system. What are my options? This is my first TRS-80 model II/8" floppy-based hardware. I'm located in central Wisconsin. Thanks! -Bill From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 23 17:41:01 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 15:41:01 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5472708D.7070507@sydex.com> On 11/23/2014 03:16 PM, wrh at wootsie.com wrote: > I received some 8" SS,DD 128/F floppies with it, but unfortunately none of > them appear to have anything on them (that I can tell) - receive "BOOT > ERROR RS" on this system. > > What are my options? This is my first TRS-80 model II/8" floppy-based I take it that you don't have a "tweener" PC with an 8" drive installed. Are you handy with a soldering iron? The model 16 floppy controller has pads for a 34-position header that, with a few small jumpers can be connected to a 3.5" HD (1.44M) drive. If you've got a legacy PC with a 1.44M drive that can run DOS, you can create your own bootable 3.5" floppies. Otherwise, find someone with an 8" drive equipped "tweener" to make an 8" floppy for you. You can also boot these systems with Model II floppies. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 23 17:49:51 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 15:49:51 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de>, <54726340.10707@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5472729F.3070201@sydex.com> On 11/23/2014 03:12 PM, tony duell wrote: > I bought a second-hand slide projector over here and it came with about 10 mains leads > ending in assorted main plugs 2 and 3 pin, even a bayonet lampholder plug. The old owner had > used it for illustrating his lectures and he never knew what socket he would find in the lecture hall... Many in the construction trades use portable tools with Hubbell "twist-lock" (NEMA "L") plugs. I don't know why those never made it into the consumer market. A leaf blower with the standard 2-blade plug will pull out of the socket on an extension cord in a heartbeat. I believe the two-blade NEMA 1-15 plug originated with Hubbell, strangely enough. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 18:33:10 2014 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 18:33:10 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 In-Reply-To: <5472708D.7070507@sydex.com> References: <5472708D.7070507@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 5:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Are you handy with a soldering iron? The model 16 floppy controller has > pads for a 34-position header that, with a few small jumpers can be > connected to a 3.5" HD (1.44M) drive. If you've got a legacy PC with a Never knew that about the 16. Is that the case with the 2 and/or 12 also? From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 18:44:01 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 18:44:01 -0600 Subject: Osborne Vixen - Zenith 7" display t-shooting issues In-Reply-To: <5471ABD4.3050806@dds.nl> References: <545BC8FF.2090500@dds.nl> <545C7500.10701@sydex.com> <545D3708.7040409@sydex.com> <545D828C.5070004@sydex.com> <5471ABD4.3050806@dds.nl> Message-ID: Hi Simon, On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 3:41 AM, Simon Claessen wrote: > Cool! that is good news. and thanks for sharing this. another thing to > lookout for Isn't it obnoxious when a forum member goes through all sorts of conniptions, generates dozens of exchanges - but never bothers to return and let everyone know how things came out, once they have what they want? Yeah, I dislike that kind of behavior, too. Anyway, Chuck's tip about the MJE13007A SMPS transistors serving the horizontal output role was extremely helpful. They are obviously common as a shoe and very inexpensive - less than fifty-cents apiece in lots of ten, and that's from a USA seller! If you set aside the shipping, they're more like a quarter-dollar each. I'm still new to this area, but I suspect that many small-screen monochrome displays (or even B&W TVs) might accept such a part as a replacement HOT. Heck, they might even work in a small color display, such as the 5" screen in the C-64 Executive. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 18:49:14 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 18:49:14 -0600 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! Message-ID: Thanks to the efforts of several members, my Osborne Vixen is up & running with a working display. But now the dang thing is begging me for a disc that I don't have.. =/ Could someone possibly send me some boot-media for this machine? As things sit, I don't even have a PC with a 5-1/4" drive installed, if (and that's +if+) it were capable of writing discs for the Osborne format. I've tried feeding it media for Epson & Kaypro CP/M machines, but no dice - it rejects them without a second seek. Anyone know how to handle this? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 23 19:25:12 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 17:25:12 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 In-Reply-To: References: <5472708D.7070507@sydex.com> Message-ID: <547288F8.7090000@sydex.com> On 11/23/2014 04:33 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 5:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Are you handy with a soldering iron? The model 16 floppy controller has >> pads for a 34-position header that, with a few small jumpers can be >> connected to a 3.5" HD (1.44M) drive. If you've got a legacy PC with a > > Never knew that about the 16. Is that the case with the 2 and/or 12 also? It depends on the controller--there were at least two styles; one has an unpopulated 34-position spot on the board--that's the one that seems to be in most model 16s. The jumpers mostly handle the missing "ready" line issue and allow for "DS1" on the drive instead of "DS0", so you can take an unvarnished configured-for-PC drive and use that. FWIW, a 5.25" 96tpi HD ("1.2M") drive will work just as well. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 23 19:31:07 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 17:31:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141123172046.G18280@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 23 Nov 2014, drlegendre . wrote: > Thanks to the efforts of several members, my Osborne Vixen is up & running > with a working display. But now the dang thing is begging me for a disc > that I don't have.. =/ > Could someone possibly send me some boot-media for this machine? As things > sit, I don't even have a PC with a 5-1/4" drive installed, if (and that's > +if+) it were capable of writing discs for the Osborne format. > I've tried feeding it media for Epson & Kaypro CP/M machines, but no dice - > it rejects them without a second seek. Anyone know how to handle this? The original Osborne was SSSD, with 10 sectors of 256 bytes each. Almost the same "low level" format as TRS80 Model 1 (except the TRS80 only used the first 35 tracks, . . . ). With a small amount of screwing around with Superzap (or alternates), Osborne disks can be created using a TRS80. IFF you have the "double density" upgrade of the Osborne, (was the Vixen one of those?) then disks are writable with a PC with 360K drive, but are NOT the same format as Kaypro nor Epson. Does the Osborne use a "standard" SA400 interface? If so, then a 720K 3.5" could be cabled into it. (or a 3", or a 3.25", . . . ) From js at cimmeri.com Sun Nov 23 19:38:28 2014 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 20:38:28 -0500 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54728C14.9080004@cimmeri.com> On 11/23/2014 7:49 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Thanks to the efforts of several members, my Osborne Vixen is up& running > with a working display. But now the dang thing is begging me for a disc > that I don't have.. =/ What were you thinking it would beg you for? > Could someone possibly send me some boot-media for this machine? I'm sure it's possible that someone could, and that would be the best route. > As things > sit, I don't even have a PC with a 5-1/4" drive installed, if (and that's > +if+) it were capable of writing discs for the Osborne format. If you have any serious intentions of vintage computer collecting, this is a must have. > I've tried feeding it media for Epson& Kaypro CP/M machines, but no dice - > it rejects them without a second seek. Anyone know how to handle this? Usually, I handle this kind of problem by swapping out the user. :-D - J. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 19:44:24 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 19:44:24 -0600 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <20141123172046.G18280@shell.lmi.net> References: <20141123172046.G18280@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <54728D78.70401@gmail.com> On 11/23/2014 07:31 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > IFF you have the "double density" upgrade of the Osborne, (was the Vixen > one of those?) then disks are writable with a PC with 360K drive, but are > NOT the same format as Kaypro nor Epson. Some PCs will write SD, of course, although I think far fewer will write SD and 128 byte sectors. > Does the Osborne use a "standard" SA400 interface? If so, then a 720K > 3.5" could be cabled into it. (or a 3", or a 3.25", . . . ) I don't know about the Vixen. The OCC1 uses what seem to be stock drive chassis but with custom logic boards that get power over the same cable as data. I get the impression that there's nothing special about the signaling, though, and so it's likely possible to run different drives (which would include 3.x" units) if a suitable adapter were to be wired up. cheers Jules From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Nov 23 19:46:35 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 01:46:35 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <54728DFB.7070002@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/11/2014 22:12, Brent Hilpert wrote: > The benefit of the North American split-phase system vs EU/Britain is > you have the energy & copper-efficiency of 240V available for heavy > appliances, but you have the safety factor throughout the house of > never having more than 120V between you and earth. That's not as much of a safety factor as many people think, indeed possibly not at all. It's true that 230V will give you more of a jolt than 120V, and more so because human body resistance drops slightly at higher voltages. Nevertheless, there's a strong argument that a 230V jolt is more likely to throw you off the conductor whereas 120V may be more likely to make you latch onto it. It depends how you touch it, obviously, but evidence suggests that (EHT excepted) the region around 100V-130V is about the most dangerous. I recall reading a discussion of that as part of the European harmonisation of voltages, in connection with 110V for site equipment. Evidently that was in part why the idea of one live and one neutral with a single simple MCB or RCD was rejected in favour of the split 55-0-55 system (proposed by the UK). -- Pete Pete Turnbull From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 20:36:05 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 20:36:05 -0600 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <54728D78.70401@gmail.com> References: <20141123172046.G18280@shell.lmi.net> <54728D78.70401@gmail.com> Message-ID: The 5.25" drives in the Vixen utilize the standard 34-pin edge-connect cabling and 4-pin 'Molex' type power connection, as with any conventional 5.25" floppy or 3.5" IDE HDD. Of course, at this time I can't say if the voltages or signals are correct, but the form-factors do seem to match up; they're plug-compatible, in any case. Seems like the best route is to hang out 'till someone with a working Osborne offers to send me some bootable media. Thing is, I don't think I even have a User's Guide for this thing - isn't there some sort of ROM monitor you can invoke from the boot screen? Maybe not, but it seems like something that ought to be there.. On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 7:44 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 11/23/2014 07:31 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> IFF you have the "double density" upgrade of the Osborne, (was the Vixen >> one of those?) then disks are writable with a PC with 360K drive, but are >> NOT the same format as Kaypro nor Epson. >> > > Some PCs will write SD, of course, although I think far fewer will write > SD and 128 byte sectors. > > Does the Osborne use a "standard" SA400 interface? If so, then a 720K >> 3.5" could be cabled into it. (or a 3", or a 3.25", . . . ) >> > > I don't know about the Vixen. The OCC1 uses what seem to be stock drive > chassis but with custom logic boards that get power over the same cable as > data. I get the impression that there's nothing special about the > signaling, though, and so it's likely possible to run different drives > (which would include 3.x" units) if a suitable adapter were to be wired up. > > cheers > > Jules > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 23 20:53:33 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 18:53:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <54728D78.70401@gmail.com> References: <20141123172046.G18280@shell.lmi.net> <54728D78.70401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20141123185059.R18280@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 23 Nov 2014, Jules Richardson wrote: > Some PCs will write SD, of course, although I think far fewer will write SD > and 128 byte sectors. The good news is that the Osborne single density was 256 bytes per sector. 10 sectors per track, single sided, 40 tracks From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 23 22:00:16 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 20:00:16 -0800 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <20141123185059.R18280@shell.lmi.net> References: <20141123172046.G18280@shell.lmi.net> <54728D78.70401@gmail.com> <20141123185059.R18280@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5472AD50.2060906@sydex.com> On 11/23/2014 06:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 23 Nov 2014, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Some PCs will write SD, of course, although I think far fewer will write SD >> and 128 byte sectors. > > The good news is that the Osborne single density was 256 bytes per sector. > 10 sectors per track, single sided, 40 tracks It's 128-byte MFM (not FM) that's the problem with a huge swath of PC controllers. And, wouldn't you know it, there were a few systems using just that. The National Semi DP8473 is one of the controllers that can pull that one off. Apparently they reverse-engineered the NEC 765 and didn't reproduce the bug. Shame on them! Didn't they understand "compatibility"? And yes, the same NS controller handles FM flawlessly. --Chuck From turing at shaw.ca Sun Nov 23 17:51:47 2014 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:51:47 -0700 (MST) Subject: FS: HP 16500C logic analyzer system In-Reply-To: <05C21C84-6533-47B7-81BD-6ECABA536E78@bitscience.ca> Message-ID: <352408970.93792090.1416786707436.JavaMail.root@cds032> Hi: I'm very definitely interested, and I live in Vancouver - does it come with the full set of system disks? I'd be comfortable with $300, but if you'd like to ask for less, that's fine with me ! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Ferguson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2014 2:34:44 PM Subject: FS: HP 16500C logic analyzer system I?m getting rid of my HP 16500C logic analyzer. It?s got the 16550A and 16517A modules. The former has 96 data channels and 6 clock/data channels, all at 100MHz; the latter provides 16 channels @ up to 4GHz. It comes with all the pods/probes and many connectors, as well as the manuals and training materials. It passes all self-tests. I?m in Vancouver, BC. The LA is probably too big to ship economically, but if someone in the BC lower mainland or Washington state is interested, let me know. I?ve got it up on Craigslist for a firm $300 (http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/nvn/ele/4775079685.html ), but list members can make me an offer. Thanks, Rob Ferguson From scaron at umich.edu Sun Nov 23 21:00:27 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 22:00:27 -0500 Subject: Net-boot and install OpenVMS 7.x on MicroVAX 3x00? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, I didn't realize how straightforward it was; I just used CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM to add it to the cluster, set up the new host in NCP just as shown in the OpenVMS clustering docs, "boot xqa0" on the MicroVAX and off it went. I was impressed! I've just been playing with the machine net-booted all afternoon; it runs surprisingly quick. Now I see it should be straightforward to just mount the install media on my cluster node with SCSI; I can read in the backup set to the target disk from the CD over the network, and just do the install as per documentation after that. Thanks, Sean On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On Sat, 22 Nov 2014, Sean Caron wrote: > > Hi all, >> >> While I'm saving up my pennies for a Q-bus SCSI card, does anyone know if >> it's possible to do both a net-boot and a fresh VMS installation given an >> existing VAXcluster where I do have a SCSI CD-ROM hooked up to one of the >> machines? >> >> > I believe it's possible...but it would require a host-based, or > hardware-based infoserver if I am remembering right. > > -- > Cory Smelosky > http://gewt.net Personal stuff > http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects > From trash80 at internode.on.net Mon Nov 24 02:18:45 2014 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:18:45 +1100 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006501d007bf$458b2800$d0a17800$@internode.on.net> If you're getting errors reading disks it might be a variety of things as is always the case but good quality 8" media is a significant problem given its age Bill. I have 2 Model 16's and several hundred 8" floppies. We're just in the process of repairing the PS caps on what appears to be the better of the two machines and then no doubt we'll get to booting. I'm looking forward to that but also expect some moments of despair. But that's what this hobby is all about :-) Some of the disks look like the parched earth of a desert so they'll be a no go. As for the rest it's a guess - just be careful if you're popping disks in and out and check if the surface of the disk is visually OK and that it leaves nothing behind in the drive. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of wrh at wootsie.com Sent: Monday, 24 November 2014 10:16 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 Hello, I recently recused a TRS-80 Model 16. It's in beautiful condition and appears to be fully functional. I received some 8" SS,DD 128/F floppies with it, but unfortunately none of them appear to have anything on them (that I can tell) - receive "BOOT ERROR RS" on this system. What are my options? This is my first TRS-80 model II/8" floppy-based hardware. I'm located in central Wisconsin. Thanks! -Bill From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 24 02:52:27 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 00:52:27 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <54728DFB.7070002@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54728DFB.7070002@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 2014-Nov-23, at 5:46 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 23/11/2014 22:12, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> The benefit of the North American split-phase system vs EU/Britain is >> you have the energy & copper-efficiency of 240V available for heavy >> appliances, but you have the safety factor throughout the house of >> never having more than 120V between you and earth. > > That's not as much of a safety factor as many people think, indeed possibly not at all. It's true that 230V will give you more of a jolt than 120V, and more so because human body resistance drops slightly at higher voltages. Nevertheless, there's a strong argument that a 230V jolt is more likely to throw you off the conductor whereas 120V may be more likely to make you latch onto it. It depends how you touch it, obviously, but evidence suggests that (EHT excepted) the region around 100V-130V is about the most dangerous. I recall reading a discussion of that as part of the European harmonisation of voltages, in connection with 110V for site equipment. Evidently that was in part why the idea of one live and one neutral with a single simple MCB or RCD was rejected in favour of the split 55-0-55 system (proposed by the UK). Well, I'm willing to entertain counter-intuitive notions but I'm really not convinced. Some reading suggests going beyond the current level at which one loses intentional muscle control, while it will or can result in involuntary muscle contractions, those contractions may be more likely to result in hanging on rather than getting kicked off, and you're more likely to exceed that current level with the higher voltage. Getting 'thrown off' also has it's own set of associated risks. But isn't there an internal logic problem in there to begin with? I thought the point of the step-down/isolation transformer for portable tools was to reduce the 240V to a safer level (or is just to make it easier for manufacturers, to only have to manufacture 110/120V tools worldwide?, in which case one would think the onus would be on NA to change). Those transformers aren't required in NA because we're only operating at 120V. Once you require the transformers to get down from 240V, you might as well go to the center-tapped 55-0-55 technique at a small increase in complexity over 0-110 for a further safety improvement. From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Mon Nov 24 06:32:55 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 12:32:55 +0000 (WET) Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 23 Nov 2014 20:38:28 -0500" <54728C14.9080004@cimmeri.com> References: Message-ID: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> > >> As things >> sit, I don't even have a PC with a 5-1/4" drive installed, if (and that's >> +if+) it were capable of writing discs for the Osborne format. >If you have any serious intentions of vintage computer collecting, this >is a must have. > Isn't "must have" a bit strong? Maybe I'm more of a vintage computer user than a collector or maybe I'm just not serious but a VAXstation 2000 and a BBC Micro have managed to cope with all of my 5-1/4" disk needs so far. As far as I'm concerned the hobby is about what can be done without resorting to a PC, not what can be done with one as a prerequisite or as some kind of fallback to be used for routine tasks. Now back to the regular religeous war on US vs European power distribution (which I have strongly held opinions on too but I don't think it's going to do much good to voice them, especially when each mail seem to be arriving twice until the list gets back to normal...) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 07:07:14 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 07:07:14 -0600 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: References: <20141123172046.G18280@shell.lmi.net> <54728D78.70401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54732D82.3000201@gmail.com> On 11/23/2014 08:36 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > The 5.25" drives in the Vixen utilize the standard 34-pin edge-connect > cabling and 4-pin 'Molex' type power connection, as with any conventional > 5.25" floppy or 3.5" IDE HDD. > > Of course, at this time I can't say if the voltages or signals are correct, > but the form-factors do seem to match up; they're plug-compatible, in any > case. They probably are; it seemed weird that Osborne went with the non-standard drives for the Osborne 1 - I'm not sure what the benefit was supposed to be. Sure, they probably saved a buck on a power harness, but I don't know if that negates the hassle of getting custom drive units made. > Seems like the best route is to hang out 'till someone with a working > Osborne offers to send me some bootable media. Well if it comes to it I'm sure we can figure out something when the OCC1 I have finds its way to you. But I expect that the Vixen uses DD by default though, doesn't it? In which case - if the Vixen drives aren't anything weird - you should be able to hook one up to a PC and write some media; any old PC FDC should handle it. > Thing is, I don't think I > even have a User's Guide for this thing - isn't there some sort of ROM > monitor you can invoke from the boot screen? Maybe not, but it seems like > something that ought to be there.. I really don't know about the Vixen - I don't think the OCC1 has anything like that though, it's pretty basic. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 07:14:48 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 07:14:48 -0600 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <54728C14.9080004@cimmeri.com> References: <54728C14.9080004@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <54732F48.5080805@gmail.com> On 11/23/2014 07:38 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> As things >> sit, I don't even have a PC with a 5-1/4" drive installed, if (and that's >> +if+) it were capable of writing discs for the Osborne format. > If you have any serious intentions of vintage computer collecting, this is > a must have. Well, *some* way of writing 5.25 media from downloaded images, anyway. 40t 5.25" drives are not particularly common these days, though. Available for $25 or so via various channels still, it seems, but they're not kicking around in hardware that's destined for recycling like they once were. I see the odd 80t drive (once or twice a year) but of course they're useless for writing 40t media. cheers Jules From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Nov 24 07:39:24 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 13:39:24 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20141124133924.GA214461@mooli.org.uk> On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 02:12:15PM -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: [...] > The ring system in Britain with fuses in the plugs provides a safety factor > of appropriately limited current at the wall. On the other hand, in NA the > vast majority of in-wall house wiring is done with #14 wire(15A circuits), > which is a lot easier to work than whichever gauge Britain uses for 25A or > 32A circuits. Actually, we use the same gauge, except it's in metric :) Or to give actual figures, 32A ring circuits typically use 2.5mm^2 cable, whereas #14 is approximately 2.1mm^2. It's stiffer than 13A mains flex, but easy enough to work with. The ring circuit provides two paths back to the fuse box, so the whole circuit can in theory carry twice the current. In practice, of course, the paths don't have equal resistance so the current will not be shared equally. This especially applies when one path has infinite resistance due to some muppet cocking up the installation, as a quick continuity test won't detect it. > The benefit of the North American split-phase system vs EU/Britain Point of order: The UK is part of the EU; and 230V is not pecular to the EU but standard across the world with the notable exceptions of North America and Japan. Japan is also very much the poster child of how not to design an electricity distribution network. > is you have the energy & copper-efficiency of 240V available for heavy > appliances, but you have the safety factor throughout the house of never > having more than 120V between you and earth. We have the safety factor of not using those lethal NEMA plugs that expose the user to 120V in the first place. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 24 08:29:52 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 09:29:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 Message-ID: <20141124142952.798A218C19A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Kevin Parker > good quality 8" media is a significant problem given its age .. > I have .. several hundred 8" floppies. .. > Some of the disks look like the parched earth of a desert so they'll be > a no go. As for the rest it's a guess - just be careful if you're > popping disks in and out and check if the surface of the disk is > visually OK and that it leaves nothing behind in the drive. I was under the impression that older floppies should be given the same 'heat soak' treatment given to old tapes (which makes sense; they are similar formulations on a mylar base). Once that is done, my understanding is that older floppies are actually generally quite usable, pretty must like they were when new? Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 24 10:52:55 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 08:52:55 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 In-Reply-To: <20141124142952.798A218C19A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141124142952.798A218C19A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54736267.7040203@bitsavers.org> On 11/24/14 6:29 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Once that is done, my understanding is that older floppies are actually > generally quite usable, pretty must like they were when new? > And if they were bad when they were new, they will be bad now. IBM-branded, Dysan, and 3M have held up pretty well, most of the rest esp Verbatim, BASF, and Memorex, have not, and baking will not help them. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 11:04:28 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 09:04:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20141124080538.D32955@shell.lmi.net> > >> sit, I don't even have a PC with a 5-1/4" drive installed, if (and that's > >> +if+) it were capable of writing discs for the Osborne format. > >If you have any serious intentions of vintage computer collecting, this > >is a must have. On Mon, 24 Nov 2014, Peter Coghlan wrote: > Isn't "must have" a bit strong? A little. Maybe a "strong recommendation". He would need a PC with a 5-1/4" drive for running XenoCopy. (Or Chuck's software. Or David Dunfield's software.), OR, he could write a PC emulator for something else that he owns. (XenoCopy could read Osborne1 DD disks while running under "Transformer" on Amiga 1000, . . . ) OR, once he gets the Osborne into a monitor program, and or booted and running DDT or other tools, then he could simply write the software needed to use the Osborne to be his creator of 5.25" disks. (A PC emulator running on the Osborne might not be practical, particularly for current Windoze) > Maybe I'm more of a vintage computer user than a collector or maybe I'm just > not serious but a VAXstation 2000 and a BBC Micro have managed to cope with > all of my 5-1/4" disk needs so far. As far as I'm concerned the hobby is > about what can be done without resorting to a PC, not what can be done with > one as a prerequisite or as some kind of fallback to be used for > routine tasks. I'm not aware of any software currently extant for using Osborne for disk manipulation, but it would certainly be capable of it. After all, "boot" in our business is short for "bootstrap", which is based on Baron Von Munchausen lifting himself out of the swamp by pulling up on his own bootstraps. Just because the tools aren't there doesn't mean that you can't write them; just because the tools to write the tools aren't there doesn't mean that you can't write them; just because the tools to write the tools to write the tools . . . > Now back to the regular religeous war on US vs European power distribution > (which I have strongly held opinions on too but I don't think it's going to > do much good to voice them, especially when each mail seem to be arriving > twice until the list gets back to normal...) Well before we get back to griping about how the list is not as perfect as it once was, . . . Elsewhere in another branch of this thread, there is mention of certain limitations of the PC hardware, including the difficulties with Single Density, and with 128 byte sectors in Double Density. I love that discussion, because 30 years ago, I spent a ridiculous amount of time convinced that I was doing something wrong when I was trying to read 128 byte sectors. It is such a relief to find out that, besides the many things that I was doing wrong, that the problem was actually stuff that others had done wrong before me. Sure woulda been nice if I had known Chuck THEN! (I had finally figured out why I couldn't do single density by staring at pin 26 of the NEC765 in the schematics in the IBM PC Technical Reference Manual.) The flamewar about RX02 is based on defining what is meant by the phrase "MFM floppy"! Nobody is "wrong", they just aren't recognizing each other's definitions. The RX02 is NOT an "FM floppy"; the RX02 is NOT an "MFM floppy". It is a hybrid. It took an FM low level format, and rewrote the data area of each sector with MFM, resulting in a disk that is about 1/3 FM, and 2/3 MFM. In terms of the floppy ITSELF, disks rated for FM or rated for MFM should both work, but there might be better reliability using the MFM rated disks. AND NOT the 600 Oerstedt "1.2M" disks! THOSE might seem to work, but will be blank again before you need to reread the disk! BTDT. And, NO, the 765 can't be tricked into reading RX02. Or can it? PROVE ME WRONG - write the code to do it! But, lest we forget, . . . the OP wants Osborne disks. The PC has no major problems reading, writing, and formatting DOUBLE DENSITY Osborne disks [with appropriate software - you shoulda bought a copy of XenoCopy when it was available, to keep me in business, and to write Osborne disks for the OP] IF the OP wants SINGLE DENSITY Osborne disks, as were used in the original Osborne Computer (before it had a number), they are NOT 128 byte sectors, just a fairly ordinary single density (FM) 256 bypes per sector with 10 sectors, which can be done with TRS80, or with a PC with certain specific FDC chips, OR a PC with certain [minor] modifications (go stare at pin 26 of the FDC in the schematics!) such as what Flagstaff Engineering did to the original IBM FDC board. OK, NOW back to the list meta-discussions, "which was the first computer?", cars, guns, and storage space. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 11:05:29 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 11:05:29 -0600 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <54732F48.5080805@gmail.com> References: <54728C14.9080004@cimmeri.com> <54732F48.5080805@gmail.com> Message-ID: Now come to think, I do have both an original IBM PC and an XT. The PC has dual 5.25" drives, the XT a single 5.25 + HDD. One of those is bound to be the correct h/w format, right? What we want here is 360K physical, right? It still leaves a chicken-and-egg problem, as neither of those machines have any outward connectivity, nor do I have any media with something like Laplink or an ISA NE2000 driver sitting around. Oh well, in time, in time.. I made it this far without a bootable Osborne Vixen, and it's not like the world will end on Tuesday. On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 7:14 AM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 11/23/2014 07:38 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> As things >>> sit, I don't even have a PC with a 5-1/4" drive installed, if (and that's >>> +if+) it were capable of writing discs for the Osborne format. >>> >> If you have any serious intentions of vintage computer collecting, this is >> a must have. >> > > Well, *some* way of writing 5.25 media from downloaded images, anyway. > > 40t 5.25" drives are not particularly common these days, though. Available > for $25 or so via various channels still, it seems, but they're not kicking > around in hardware that's destined for recycling like they once were. I see > the odd 80t drive (once or twice a year) but of course they're useless for > writing 40t media. > > cheers > > Jules > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 11:07:48 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 09:07:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <54732D82.3000201@gmail.com> References: <20141123172046.G18280@shell.lmi.net> <54728D78.70401@gmail.com> <54732D82.3000201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20141124090454.S32955@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Nov 2014, Jules Richardson wrote: > They probably are; it seemed weird that Osborne went with the non-standard > drives for the Osborne 1 - I'm not sure what the benefit was supposed to > be. Sure, they probably saved a buck on a power harness, but I don't know > if that negates the hassle of getting custom drive units made. We should ask Lee! Perhaps it was to save money? Or some plans for later expansion? At the time, Apple had been using their own boards on SA390 drives (an SA400, without the board) > Well if it comes to it I'm sure we can figure out something when the OCC1 I > have finds its way to you. But I expect that the Vixen uses DD by default > though, doesn't it? In which case - if the Vixen drives aren't anything > weird - you should be able to hook one up to a PC and write some media; any > old PC FDC should handle it. [with appropriate software] -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 11:10:09 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 09:10:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <54732F48.5080805@gmail.com> References: <54728C14.9080004@cimmeri.com> <54732F48.5080805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20141124090825.K32955@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Nov 2014, Jules Richardson wrote: > 40t 5.25" drives are not particularly common these days, though. Available > for $25 or so via various channels still, it seems, but they're not kicking > around in hardware that's destined for recycling like they once were. I see > the odd 80t drive (once or twice a year) but of course they're useless for > writing 40t media. When used with virgin/degaussed media, they CAN make a usable disk, but the original poster needs to reduce the number of variables, not increase them, so they would certainly be not recommended. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 11:20:19 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 09:20:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: References: <54728C14.9080004@cimmeri.com> <54732F48.5080805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20141124091607.G32955@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Nov 2014, drlegendre . wrote: > Now come to think, I do have both an original IBM PC and an XT. The PC has > dual 5.25" drives, the XT a single 5.25 + HDD. One of those is bound to be > the correct h/w format, right? What we want here is 360K physical, right? Both perfect machines for the task! > It still leaves a chicken-and-egg problem, as neither of those machines > have any outward connectivity, nor do I have any media with something like > Laplink or an ISA NE2000 driver sitting around. Yeah, you have two problems, . . . have to get the data/image for the osborne onto the PC, and need to write code to write Osborne disks (look at INT13h and INT1Eh) > Oh well, in time, in time.. I made it this far without a bootable Osborne > Vixen, and it's not like the world will end on Tuesday. more likely to be on a Thursday; I never could quite get the hang of Thursdays. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 24 11:20:40 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 09:20:40 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 In-Reply-To: <54736267.7040203@bitsavers.org> References: <20141124142952.798A218C19A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54736267.7040203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <547368E8.5060609@sydex.com> On 11/24/2014 08:52 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > IBM-branded, Dysan, and 3M have held up pretty well, most of the rest > esp Verbatim, BASF, and Memorex, have not, and baking will not help them. Unfortunately, much of the "Radio Shack" branded 8" media was terrible; I think Tandy made their OEM selection for price, not quality. --Chuck From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Nov 24 11:29:39 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 18:29:39 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54728DFB.7070002@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20141124172939.GA2731@beast.freibergnet.de> Brent Hilpert wrote: [..] > Once you require the transformers to get down from 240V, you might as well go to the center-tapped 55-0-55 technique at a small increase in complexity over 0-110 for a further safety improvement. If you would ask me if I would change the usual german installations against the "higher security" of the NA system you would hear an No thanks" for sure... I know of no other country in the world where Plugs are so secure that they disconnect them selves from the outlet by simply falling out... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 11:32:18 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 12:32:18 -0500 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <5725FDD4575C4E48BCCB14ACE9E25EBC@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Coghlan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 7:32 AM Subject: Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! > > >>> As things >>> sit, I don't even have a PC with a 5-1/4" drive installed, if (and >>> that's >>> +if+) it were capable of writing discs for the Osborne format. >>If you have any serious intentions of vintage computer collecting, this is >>a must have. >> > > Isn't "must have" a bit strong? > > Maybe I'm more of a vintage computer user than a collector or maybe I'm > just > not serious but a VAXstation 2000 and a BBC Micro have managed to cope > with > all of my 5-1/4" disk needs so far. As far as I'm concerned the hobby is > about what can be done without resorting to a PC, not what can be done > with > one as a prerequisite or as some kind of fallback to be used for routine > tasks. ---------------- You can also do without an oscilloscope or even a screwdriver, but they do make some things a lot easier; why should not using a certain common tool be a prerequisite of this hobby, especially when so much of it involves exchanging with others. > > Now back to the regular religious war on US vs European power distribution > (which I have strongly held opinions on too but I don't think it's going > to > do much good to voice them, especially when each mail seem to be arriving > twice until the list gets back to normal...) ---------------- You're probably signed up under two different email addresses; check the address on your incoming mail and if they're different unsub one of them. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 11:41:55 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 12:41:55 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 References: <20141124142952.798A218C19A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54736267.7040203@bitsavers.org> <547368E8.5060609@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1E3AD5C9F1A74B72B80651FF6EC793F0@310e2> No mention of Wabash? ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 12:20 PM Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model 16 > On 11/24/2014 08:52 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> IBM-branded, Dysan, and 3M have held up pretty well, most of the rest >> esp Verbatim, BASF, and Memorex, have not, and baking will not help them. > > Unfortunately, much of the "Radio Shack" branded 8" media was terrible; I > think Tandy made their OEM selection for price, not quality. > > --Chuck > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 11:44:57 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 12:44:57 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54728DFB.7070002@dunnington.plus.com> <20141124172939.GA2731@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Holm Tiffe" To: Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 12:29 PM Subject: Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? > If you would ask me if I would change the usual german installations > against the "higher security" of the NA system you would hear an > No thanks" for sure... > > I know of no other country in the world where Plugs are so secure that > they > disconnect them selves from the outlet by simply falling out... ----------------- You mean yours remain connected when they fall out? ;-) From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 11:50:26 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 12:50:26 -0500 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! References: <54728C14.9080004@cimmeri.com> <54732F48.5080805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <11F8C0CE90D84E50AAA88D3CF105780D@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "drlegendre ." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 12:05 PM Subject: Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! > Now come to think, I do have both an original IBM PC and an XT. The PC has > dual 5.25" drives, the XT a single 5.25 + HDD. One of those is bound to be > the correct h/w format, right? What we want here is 360K physical, right? > > It still leaves a chicken-and-egg problem, as neither of those machines > have any outward connectivity, ------------ No serial or parallel ports? Definitely a 'must have' ;-) ... nor do I have any media with something like Laplink or an ISA NE2000 driver sitting around. ------------- A null-modem cable is your medium... another 'must have' ;-) m From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 11:57:21 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 09:57:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54728DFB.7070002@dunnington.plus.com> <20141124172939.GA2731@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20141124095129.O32955@shell.lmi.net> > > I know of no other country in the world where Plugs are so secure that > > they disconnect them selves from the outlet by simply falling out... > ----------------- On Mon, 24 Nov 2014, Mike Stein wrote: > You mean yours remain connected when they fall out? > ;-) Wouldn't that require a lower frequency and/or higher voltage? Besides, it's a "feature" If you're doing something unsafe, such as using power tools with an extension cord, it periodically forces you to recheck all of the connections. I'm having some fun tree pruning with 12V Nextec and Ridgid, and 40V Ryobi. From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 11:57:33 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 11:57:33 -0600 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <5725FDD4575C4E48BCCB14ACE9E25EBC@310e2> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5725FDD4575C4E48BCCB14ACE9E25EBC@310e2> Message-ID: @One or two recent posters (...) Gee whiz guys, I'm not exactly new to this game.. I've been collecting computer stuff for 20 years and at this point have had to sell more than I've managed to retain. Yes, there was a time when I had a 486 tower with one-each of all the various drives - could boot it into DOS, Win or Linux to handle all sorts of media-related tasks.. likewise, an older Mac that ran an Apple II hardware emulator which could be used to write media for all of the older Apple machines. Both were networked in one way or another. IIRC the Mac had the Asante SCSI-Ethernet adapter as the lone PDS port carried the Apple emulator. I still have the Mac stuff somewhere, but the PC tower is long gone.. You know, times and interests change, hobbies wax & wane.. I only got back into the vintage computing stuff a few months back when I decided it was finally time to make that Altair work.. that I knew enough to 'bootstrap' myself into the process, and that I could learn what was needed as I went. As it turns out, I was correct.. So anyway, don't stress out over this stuff.. newbish as I may be at times, I'm not exactly flying blind or going off half-cocked all the time. ;-) On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 11:32 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Coghlan" < > cctech at beyondthepale.ie> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 7:32 AM > Subject: Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! > > > > >> >>> As things >>>> sit, I don't even have a PC with a 5-1/4" drive installed, if (and >>>> that's >>>> +if+) it were capable of writing discs for the Osborne format. >>>> >>> If you have any serious intentions of vintage computer collecting, this >>> is >>> a must have. >>> >>> >> Isn't "must have" a bit strong? >> >> Maybe I'm more of a vintage computer user than a collector or maybe I'm >> just >> not serious but a VAXstation 2000 and a BBC Micro have managed to cope >> with >> all of my 5-1/4" disk needs so far. As far as I'm concerned the hobby is >> about what can be done without resorting to a PC, not what can be done >> with >> one as a prerequisite or as some kind of fallback to be used for routine >> tasks. >> > ---------------- > You can also do without an oscilloscope or even a screwdriver, but they do > make some things a lot easier; why should not using a certain common tool > be a prerequisite of this hobby, especially when so much of it involves > exchanging with others. > > >> Now back to the regular religious war on US vs European power distribution >> (which I have strongly held opinions on too but I don't think it's going >> to >> do much good to voice them, especially when each mail seem to be arriving >> twice until the list gets back to normal...) >> > ---------------- > You're probably signed up under two different email addresses; check the > address on your incoming mail and if they're different unsub one of them. > > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 24 11:59:00 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 11:59:00 -0600 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <20141123205539.71D312073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> <20141123205539.71D312073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <547371E4.6060104@pico-systems.com> On 11/23/2014 02:53 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 09:28 PM 11/21/2014, William Donzelli wrote: >> The NASA model 67 reportedly had 66 ounces of gold in the CPU. Even an >> early model 30 could have 8 or 9. > How could a CPU have four-and-a-half pounds of gold? > > I'm VERY skeptical of this one! First, I know IBM went to great lengths at some time in the early 60's to figure out how to make reliable computers with a LOT less gold than the traditional wisdom required. As far as I know, all 360's had a LOT less gold in them than similar-sized machines from other makers at the same time. On the other hand, a lot of gear from the mid-60's actually used gold as the etch resist on the circuit boards. I have some examples of that. The traces of the boards are totally plated with gold! Jon From random832 at fastmail.us Mon Nov 24 11:59:47 2014 From: random832 at fastmail.us (random832 at fastmail.us) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 12:59:47 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <1416851987.2187475.194821613.405D788E@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Sun, Nov 23, 2014, at 16:20, tony duell wrote: > Mind you the old wiring regulations, at least in the UK, make horrifying > reading. At > one time it was required to put a fuse in both the live and neutral wires > (and if the > latter failed the whole circuit was live). In the US, it was once (before 1923) legal to have three-way switches installed in a way that could invert live and neutral for the switched sockets, and could result in the whole circuit being live. > I believe at one time in the UK, electricity for lighting was more > expensive per kWh than that > supplied for 'power' (which mean heating, cooking, etc). As a result, > appliances below a > certain power had to be connected to the lighting circuit, which often > didn't have an earth wire. Wikipedia says it was the other way around - lighting was cheaper, creating a natural incentive to plug any device you could get away with into the lighting circuit. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 12:01:29 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 10:01:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <11F8C0CE90D84E50AAA88D3CF105780D@310e2> References: <54728C14.9080004@cimmeri.com> <54732F48.5080805@gmail.com> <11F8C0CE90D84E50AAA88D3CF105780D@310e2> Message-ID: <20141124095756.I32955@shell.lmi.net> > > Now come to think, I do have both an original IBM PC and an XT. The PC has > > dual 5.25" drives, the XT a single 5.25 + HDD. One of those is bound to be > > the correct h/w format, right? What we want here is 360K physical, right? > > It still leaves a chicken-and-egg problem, as neither of those machines > > have any outward connectivity, On Mon, 24 Nov 2014, Mike Stein wrote: > No serial or parallel ports? Definitely a 'must have' ;-) Does the XT (5160) still have the "Asynch" card that IBM shipped it with? That is RS232 and/or 20mA > > ... nor do I have any media with something like Laplink or an ISA > > NE2000 driver sitting around. > A null-modem cable is your medium... another 'must have' ;-) Agreed I would also add the IBM Technical Reference Manual to the "must have" list. Information is the most important tool of all. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 12:06:27 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 10:06:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5725FDD4575C4E48BCCB14ACE9E25EBC@310e2> Message-ID: <20141124100310.X32955@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Nov 2014, drlegendre . wrote: > @One or two recent posters (...) > Gee whiz guys, I'm not exactly new to this game.. I've been collecting > computer stuff for 20 years and at this point have had to sell more than > I've managed to retain. Sorry. I lose track of whom I am writing to. And, a single remark, misinterpreted as implying lack of knowledge, can fool me into not realizing that I am being patronizing to those who know far more than I ever will. This is not the first time that I've made a fool of myself. Nevertheless, bootstrapping with inadequate initial resources is a wonderfully challenging puzzle. From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 24 12:12:23 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 12:12:23 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> On 11/23/2014 03:15 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > but sine you already have 240V outlets, it should be > possible to change the distribution slowly to 3 phase > power.. it's a matter of time and the only needed thing > for compatibility are the transformers with modified > secondaries. I don't think that this would ever happen > since the US is the biggest US of the world and other > people are just dumb aliens, aren't they? :-) But with > that stone age power system you are stumbling over your > own feet all the time.. Regards, Holm Well, we only have single phase 7200 V running down our street. This 7200 V run goes a LONG way, so an entire region that may be about a mile square is running off a single phase HV line, that branches over and over again into the neighborhood. Many of these feeds that go back into subdivisions are buried, and have pad-mount transformers placed every few homes. Our house has a pole-mount 50 KVA transformer that supplies just our one house, although that is kind of an accident of the layout. We are on the corner lot, and otherwise probably would have shared that transformer with a neighbor. Our LV drop is buried. So, what I'm saying here is there is a lot of high-cost infrastructure that would have to be ripped up (literally out of the ground) to go to 3 phase into the homes. Not to mention all the meters, service entry gear and breaker panels. I have a small machine shop in my basement, and some years ago it seemed like 3-phase would be real nice for that. Now that VFDs can run 3-phase motors so nicely off single phase power, it is no longer of much interest. Unless you desire to run a Cray 1 in your home (yeah, keep dreaming) there really isn't that much need for 3-phase power. Most machines that "require" 3-phase can actually be rewired internally to run off single-phase. One I can think of that won't is the KL-10B, which had a totally insane power system starting with a 3-phase transformer and rectifier. A mid-scale 370 like the 145 had a motor-generator set, which could be run off a large VFD. Or, replace the stupid MG and 415 Hz power supplies with off-the-shelf large power supplies running off single-phase 240 V. Jon From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 24 12:27:46 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 12:27:46 -0600 Subject: retry: classiccmp help sought Message-ID: <00ce01d00814$58c3cee0$0a4b6ca0$@classiccmp.org> I sent this a week ago, didn't get a response, thought I'd try one more time before trying to shoehorn time on my own to address (aka defying the physics of time): Greetings folks. Is there anyone that is *very* well versed in mailman "under the hood" that can do a one-time assist with the following: 1) Get the "two views of the same list but joined at the hip" working the way it previously was. I have some details/recollections on this, but not complete "do this" instructions. 2) There has been an ongoing issue for years with the "forgot password" emails and/or the new subscriber email verification not working right. 3) Please for the love of god figure out why every single post to the list gets me a "bounce rejection" notice to my mailbox and stop it. 4) Integrate multiple fragments (I have several, if that's not complete other listmembers have mentioned they can supply any missing fragments) of the list archives into one archive that is complete. FYI - when rebuilding the server a couple weeks ago, I switched from sendmail to postfix, so a passing familiarity with postfix would be helpful as well in your endeavors above. The OS is FreeBSD r10 p11. If anyone is versed in the above and has a bit of time to spearhead the above tasks, please email me off-list. Also - once the archives are cleaned up, two other folks have volunteered to get archive searches to be "much improved". Thanks!! J From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 12:29:10 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 13:29:10 -0500 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5725FDD4575C4E48BCCB14ACE9E25EBC@310e2> <20141124100310.X32955@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48A635EDB89B4442A1C66E48916A61D1@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 1:06 PM Subject: Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! > On Mon, 24 Nov 2014, drlegendre . wrote: >> @One or two recent posters (...) >> Gee whiz guys, I'm not exactly new to this game.. I've been collecting >> computer stuff for 20 years and at this point have had to sell more than >> I've managed to retain. > > Sorry. > I lose track of whom I am writing to. --------------- So does he, apparently; I was actually replying to Peter... > And, a single remark, misinterpreted as implying lack of knowledge, can > fool me into not realizing that I am being patronizing to those who know > far more than I ever will. > This is not the first time that I've made a fool of myself. ---------------- I don't see a problem with mentioning that it would be helpful if his PC/XT had a serial or parallel port and that a null-modem cable is a useful thing to have; also, not everyone is aware that you don't need compatible media to install and use Laplink/Interlink etc. although he obviously is ;-) Some folks get defensive so easily... > Nevertheless, bootstrapping with inadequate initial resources is a > wonderfully challenging puzzle. ---------------- And more power to those who enjoy the challenge. m From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 12:32:22 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 13:32:22 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <547371E4.6060104@pico-systems.com> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> <20141123205539.71D312073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org> <547371E4.6060104@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > I'm VERY skeptical of this one! First, I know IBM went to great lengths at > some time in > the early 60's to figure out how to make reliable computers with a LOT less > gold than > the traditional wisdom required. As far as I know, all 360's had a LOT less > gold in > them than similar-sized machines from other makers at the same time. That is not true. Early S/360 had a lot of gold in the backplane pins, later ones did not. This is why IBM stuff from 1970 or so is such a mixed bag - some machines had the cost saving tinned backplanes, some still had the gold. Looking at one of the gold backplanes, you will see that the plating is thick - the gold is very deep and dull. Over that many pins, that is a very large surface area. Doing a thick plate over a large effective surface area takes a LOT of metal. To give a more modern perspective on things - how much gold do you think is in a Pentium Pro microprocessor? Thick plate over a large surface area...go look it up, and you will probably be surprised. Then do some back of the napkin calculations on the surface area of the PPro, compared to thousands upon thousands of pins in a 2075... -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 24 12:46:34 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 18:46:34 +0000 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> References: , <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: > >> As things > >> sit, I don't even have a PC with a 5-1/4" drive installed, if (and that's > >> +if+) it were capable of writing discs for the Osborne format. > >If you have any serious intentions of vintage computer collecting, this > >is a must have. > > > > Isn't "must have" a bit strong? I thnik the 'must haves' depend very much on which aspect of this hobby you are interested in. 'Must haves' for me include a good soldering station, a logic analyser and a lathe. But I am told others manage without any of those :-) > Maybe I'm more of a vintage computer user than a collector or maybe I'm just > not serious but a VAXstation 2000 and a BBC Micro have managed to cope with > all of my 5-1/4" disk needs so far. As far as I'm concerned the hobby is > about what can be done without resorting to a PC, not what can be done with > one as a prerequisite or as some kind of fallback to be used for routine tasks. In one sense I totally agree with you, and would much rather run a vintage computer than a modern PC. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong in using whatever tools you choose. Taken to extremes you could argue that you shouldn't use a logic analyser to debug an Altair because few, if any, hobbyists who built Altairs 'back in the day' would have had one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 24 12:54:58 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 18:54:58 +0000 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <20141124080538.D32955@shell.lmi.net> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie>,<20141124080538.D32955@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > The flamewar about RX02 is based on defining what is meant by the phrase > "MFM floppy"! Nobody is "wrong", they just aren't recognizing each > other's definitions. The RX02 is NOT an "FM floppy"; the RX02 is NOT an > "MFM floppy". It is a hybrid. It took an FM low level format, and > rewrote the data area of each sector with MFM, resulting in a disk that is > about 1/3 FM, and 2/3 MFM. In terms of the floppy ITSELF, disks rated for > FM or rated for MFM should both work, but there might be better > reliability using the MFM rated disks. AND NOT the 600 Oerstedt "1.2M" > disks! THOSE might seem to work, but will be blank again before you need > to reread the disk! BTDT. If you can make a real DEC RX02 unit do anything useful with a PC type '1.2M' disk then I feel like saying I will eat one. The RX02 drive. It's a dual 8" unit... As I mentioned, there were 3rd party Qbus boards that did RX02 format using normal 8" drives (SA800 type), Many also supported double-sided operation (The hooks for that were in the drivers in most DEC OS's, the DEC RX02 had almost all the electronics for it, other than the 'down' heads). I suspect that with the right cabling these boards could be used with PC type HD drives. In which case you _would_ want 600 Oestedt disks, > And, NO, the 765 can't be tricked into reading RX02. > Or can it? PROVE ME WRONG - write the code to do it! I've never heard of it being done. Those 3rd party RX02 compatible controller boards didn't use a standard FDC IC. They used a custom controller (often a pair of 2901s, a 2910 and microcode PROMs plus a lot of extra logic). -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 13:05:20 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 11:05:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie>,<20141124080538.D32955@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20141124110341.A34830@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Nov 2014, tony duell wrote: > If you can make a real DEC RX02 unit do anything useful with a PC type > '1.2M' disk then I feel like saying I will eat one. The RX02 drive. It's > a dual 8" unit... My mistake! BUT, couldn't a "1.2M" 5.25" drive be cabled to the DEC? Those diskettes might be slightly easier to find blanks than 8" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 24 13:12:19 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:12:19 +0000 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <20141124110341.A34830@shell.lmi.net> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie>,<20141124080538.D32955@shell.lmi.net> , <20141124110341.A34830@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > > If you can make a real DEC RX02 unit do anything useful with a PC type > > '1.2M' disk then I feel like saying I will eat one. The RX02 drive. It's > > a dual 8" unit... > > My mistake! > > BUT, couldn't a "1.2M" 5.25" drive be cabled to the DEC? > Those diskettes might be slightly easier to find blanks than 8" Not easily. The RX02 drive unit contains a PSU, a pair of 'bare' drives (no electronics, just the motors, heads, track 0 and index sensors, etc), a R/W board (which links to both drives) and a controller board (full of AMD 2900 ICs). The interface between controller and R/W board is similar to a normal floppy drive interface, but by no means identical (I seem to remember gotchas like having 2 pulses on one of the lines to move the heads one track). Even if you could, you would want to use 600 Oestedt disks... -tony From leec2124 at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 13:24:58 2014 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 11:24:58 -0800 Subject: DECWriters Available Message-ID: I have a DECWriter III and II available for pick-up in Menlo Park, CA 94025. The III powers up, the II does not. It goes without saying that these are used, cases are yellowed. But all the parts are there and good restoration project. Contact me off-list lee_courtney (at) acm (dot) org to arrange local pick-up. Sorry no shipping. Need to be gone by Sunday 11/30 or going to AuctionBDI. -- Lee Courtney From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 24 13:25:10 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 14:25:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! Message-ID: <20141124192510.AC1A318C18A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com > The flamewar about RX02 is based on defining what is meant by the > phrase "MFM floppy"! ... The RX02 is NOT an "FM floppy"; the RX02 is > NOT an "MFM floppy". It is a hybrid. Exactly. > In terms of the floppy ITSELF, disks rated for FM or rated for MFM > should both work I guess I don't understand this. Single-density FM and double-density MFM have the same maximum number of flux reversals per unit distance (which is how the RX02 can write double-density data on a single-density floppy). So from the magnetic domain perspective, the coating can't really see any difference between single-density FM and double-density MFM. So what's the difference, if any, between a disk which is "rated for FM" and one "rated for MFM"? Noel From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 24 13:45:50 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 11:45:50 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 In-Reply-To: <1E3AD5C9F1A74B72B80651FF6EC793F0@310e2> References: <20141124142952.798A218C19A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54736267.7040203@bitsavers.org> <547368E8.5060609@sydex.com> <1E3AD5C9F1A74B72B80651FF6EC793F0@310e2> Message-ID: <54738AEE.3030005@sydex.com> On 11/24/2014 09:41 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > No mention of Wabash? ;-) > Oh, I'm pretty sure that Tandy bought plenty from Wabash. If you include all of the rebadgings of awful media, the List of Shame gets pretty long... --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 24 14:01:42 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 14:01:42 -0600 Subject: books available Message-ID: <01ac01d00821$77eba7e0$67c2f7a0$@classiccmp.org> PDP-11 Architecture Handbook (1983) PDP-11 Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook (1983) PDP-11 Micro/PDP-11 Handbook (1983) PDP-11 Unibus PDP-11 Handbook 11/84, 11/44, 11/24 (1985) In addition, there are: PDP-11 Programming Card (1975) VT220 Installation Guide (1984) VT220 Programmer Pocket Guide (1984) They are all in excellent shape. Owner is willing to send via USmail for free. I saw a picture of them and they are in mint condition. Email me off-list if interested. Best, J From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 24 13:58:18 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 11:58:18 -0800 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <20141124192510.AC1A318C18A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141124192510.AC1A318C18A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54738DDA.3040400@sydex.com> On 11/24/2014 11:25 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I guess I don't understand this. Single-density FM and double-density MFM > have the same maximum number of flux reversals per unit distance (which is > how the RX02 can write double-density data on a single-density floppy). So > from the magnetic domain perspective, the coating can't really see any > difference between single-density FM and double-density MFM. So what's > the difference, if any, between a disk which is "rated for FM" and one > "rated for MFM"? That one had me puzzled as well. In terms of *labeling*, some manufacturers DID label their media as single- or double-density, which to me means nothing more than they were verified using that particular modulation. Much the same situation exists for 5.25" media labeled "48 tpi", "96 tpi" or "100 tpi". --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 24 14:12:13 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 14:12:13 -0600 Subject: books available Message-ID: <01d901d00822$efb54910$cf1fdb30$@classiccmp.org> They have been claimed. J From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Nov 24 14:09:49 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 15:09:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: References: , <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <201411242009.PAA02879@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>> [...], I don't even have a PC with a 5-1/4" drive installed, [...] >>> If you have any serious intentions of vintage computer collecting, >>> this is a must have. >> Isn't "must have" a bit strong? > I thnik the 'must haves' depend very much on which aspect of this > hobby you are interested in. And that, I agree with. I'm not sure whether I have a PC with a 5-1/4" drive installed, because it's been an age since I cared about reading a 5-1/4" floppy. My own focus is on machines a bit more recent; I focus on things like Suns, NeXTen, and Alphas. Occasion to care about floppies - of any size - is somewhere between "very rare" and "never" for me. Mind you, that's not an absolute; I would love to find the floppy that had Uninvited on it, even if it meant playing in an emulator. And Lode Runner. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 24 14:11:33 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 12:11:33 -0800 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5725FDD4575C4E48BCCB14ACE9E25EBC@310e2> Message-ID: <547390F5.4070807@sydex.com> One of the easier methods of crossing the old-new divide is to replace or add a 3.5" floppy drive to the XT and use 2D (not high-density) media to exchange. Leave the other 5.25" floppy where it is. Of course, you'll need the header-to-edge adapter and the power cable adapter, but AFAIK, they're still available--as well as drive bracket adapters. Later versions of MS-DOS (I don't recall exactly when, but I think it was around 3.3 or earlier, have a DRIVER.SYS installable driver to handle the full 720K)--otherwise, you may be restricted to writing 360K. The actual type 3.5" drive doesn't matter much--you can use an HD or DD drive, so long as it's media-sense and not host-directed for density (almost all are) and you use DD disks (or cover the media type aperture on the floppy.) --Chuck From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 24 14:28:27 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 12:28:27 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-24 10:12, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/23/2014 03:15 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> but sine you already have 240V outlets, it should be possible to >> change the distribution slowly to 3 phase power.. it's a matter of >> time and the only needed thing for compatibility are the transformers >> with modified secondaries. I don't think that this would ever happen >> since the US is the biggest US of the world and other people are just >> dumb aliens, aren't they? :-) But with that stone age power system you >> are stumbling over your own feet all the time.. Regards, Holm > Well, we only have single phase 7200 V running down our street. This > 7200 V run goes a LONG way, > so an entire region that may be about a mile square is running off a > single phase HV line, that > branches over and over again into the neighborhood. Many of these feeds > that go back > into subdivisions are buried, and have pad-mount transformers placed > every few homes. > Our house has a pole-mount 50 KVA transformer that supplies just our one > house, although > that is kind of an accident of the layout. We are on the corner lot, > and otherwise probably > would have shared that transformer with a neighbor. Our LV drop is buried. > > So, what I'm saying here is there is a lot of high-cost infrastructure > that would have to be > ripped up (literally out of the ground) to go to 3 phase into the > homes. Not to mention > all the meters, service entry gear and breaker panels. > > I have a small machine shop in my basement, and some years ago it seemed > like 3-phase > would be real nice for that. Now that VFDs can run 3-phase motors so > nicely off single > phase power, it is no longer of much interest. > > Unless you desire to run a Cray 1 in your home (yeah, keep dreaming) > there really isn't > that much need for 3-phase power. Most machines that "require" 3-phase > can actually > be rewired internally to run off single-phase. One I can think of that > won't is the > KL-10B, which had a totally insane power system starting with a 3-phase > transformer > and rectifier. A mid-scale 370 like the 145 had a motor-generator set, > which could be > run off a large VFD. Or, replace the stupid MG and 415 Hz power > supplies with > off-the-shelf large power supplies running off single-phase 240 V. Stuff I know need 3-phase: VAX 86x0 machines. They have 3-phase motors for the fans. (Don't wire things up backwards, or your airflow will run backwards, which is not good.) RP06 disk drives. They use 2 phases for their motors. I wasn't aware that the KL needs 3-phase, but it might just be that the power supplies are large enough, and complicated enough, that you can't just rewire them. Johnny From leec2124 at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 13:01:42 2014 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 11:01:42 -0800 Subject: VAX/VMS Manuals Sets Available Message-ID: VMS 4.4 and 5.0 manual sets, plus some additional bits and pieces available for pick-up (only) in Menlo Park CA 94025, first-come first-serve. Sorry, paper only, no binders. Must be gone by Sunday November 30. Contact me off-list via lee_courtney (at) acm (dot) org. I have scanned all these and they are headed to Al as soon as I can finish post-processing and convert filenames. Here is a list of available documents: 0000_00_Extensible VAX Editor (EVE).pdf 0000_00_PDP-11 44 Site Planning Material.pdf 0000_00_VAX C Runtime Library Reference Manual.pdf 1976_05_DMS 500 USER'S GUIDE.pdf 1979_06_LA120 USER GUIDE.pdf 1982_02_Silent 700 Model 745 Portable Data Terminal Operating Instructions.pdf 1982_05_Programming in VAX 11 C.pdf 1982_05_VAX VMS Guide to Writing a Device Driver.pdf 1982_11_BASIC Reference Manual.pdf 1982_11_BASIC User's Guide.pdf 1983_01_Introduction to VAX-11 FMS.pdf 1983_09_Correspondent Operator Reference Guide.pdf 1983_09_Correspondent Programmer Reference Manual.pdf 1984_02_BASIC User's Guide.pdf 1984_08_VAX FMS Installation Guide and Release Notes.pdf 1984_08_VAX FMS Utilities Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_Guide to Networking on VAX VMS.pdf 1984_09_Patch Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS Accounting Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS Authorize Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS Bad Block Locator Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS Command Definition Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS DELTA XDELTA Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS Disk Quota Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS Install Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS Librarian Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS Linker Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS Mail Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS Message Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS Mount Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS Phone Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS Sort Merge Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS System Generation Utility reference Manual.pdf 1984_09_VAX VMS Verify Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1984_11_M2311K M2312K Disk Drives Engineering Specification.pdf 1985_03_TC11 TAPE CONTROLLER TECHNICAL MANUAL.pdf 1985_07_Guide to VAX VMS System Security.pdf 1985_07_M2311K M2312K Microdisk Drives Customer Engineering Manual.pdf 1985_07_VAX VMS Error Log Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1985_07_VAX VMS Exchange Utility Refeence Manual.pdf 1986_04_VAX VMS Access Control List Editor Reference Manual.pdf 1986_04_VAX VMS Backup Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1986_04_VAX VMS DCL Concepts Manual.pdf 1986_04_VAX VMS DCL Dictionary.pdf 1986_04_VAX VMS Debugger Reference Manual.pdf 1986_04_VAX VMS IO User's Reference Manual Part 1.pdf 1986_04_VAX VMS Monitor Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1986_04_VAX VMS Network Control Program Reference Manual.pdf 1986_04_VAX VMS Networking Manual.pdf 1986_04_VAX VMS Show Cluster Utility Reference Manual.pdf 1986_04_VAX VMS System Dump Analyzer Reference Manual.pdf 1986_04_VAX VMS System Manager's Reference Manual.pdf 1986_04_VAX VMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference Manual.pdf 1986_04_VAX VNS Debugger Reference Manual.pdf 1987_03_EMULUX PDP-11 LSI-11 DIAGNOSTIC DISTRIBUTION KIT.pdf 1987_03_Guide to VAX C.pdf 1987_04_Guide to VAX DEC Code Management System.pdf 1987_04_Guide to VAX DEC Module Management System.pdf 1987_04_VAX DEC Code Management System Callable Routines Reference Manual.pdf 1988_04_Guide to Creating VMS Modular Procedures.pdf 1988_04_Guide to DECnet-VAX Networking.pdf 1988_04_Guide to Maintaining a VMS System.pdf 1988_04_Guide to Setting Up a VMS System.pdf 1988_04_Guide to Using VMS Command Procedures.pdf 1988_04_Guide to Using VMS.pdf 1988_04_Guide to VMS File Applications.pdf 1988_04_Guide to VMS Files and Devices.pdf 1988_04_Guide to VMS Performance Management.pdf 1988_04_Guide to VMS Programming Resources.pdf 1988_04_Guide to VMS System Security.pdf 1988_04_Guide to VMS Text Processing.pdf 1988_04_Introduction to the VMS Run-Time Library.pdf 1988_04_Introduction to VMS System Management.pdf 1988_04_Introduction to VMS System Routines.pdf 1988_04_Introduction to VMS System Services.pdf 1988_04_Introduction to VMS.pdf 1988_04_VAX DIGITAL Standard Runoff Reference Manual.pdf 1988_04_VAX EDT Reference Manual.pdf 1988_04_VAX VMS I O User's Reference Manual Part II.pdf 1988_04_VMS Accounting Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Analyze Disk_Structure Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Analyze RMS File Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Authorize Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Backup Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Bad Block Locator Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Command Definition Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Convert and Convert Reclaim Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS DCL Dictionary.pdf 1988_04_VMS Debugger Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS DECnet Test Sender DECnet Test Receiver Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Delta XDelta Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Device Support.pdf 1988_04_VMS Error Log Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Exchange Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS File Definition Language Facility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS General User Master Index.pdf 1988_04_VMS General User's Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Glossary.pdf 1988_04_VMS Install Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Installation and Operations VAX-11 725, 730.pdf 1988_04_VMS IO User's Reference Manual Part 1.pdf 1988_04_VMS IO User's Reference Manual Part II.pdf 1988_04_VMS LAT Control Program Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Librarian Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Linker Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Mail Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Master Index.pdf 1988_04_VMS Message Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Monitor Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Mount Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS National Character Set Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Network Control Program Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Networking Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Patch Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Phone Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Programming Master Index.pdf 1988_04_VMS Record Management Services Reference Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS RTL DECtalk DTK$ Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS RTL General Purpose OTS$ Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS RTL Library Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS RTL Mathematics Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS RTL Parallel Processing Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS RTL Screen Management (SMG$) Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS RTL String Manipulation Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Show Cluster Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Sort Merge Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS SUMSLP Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS SYSMAN Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS System Dump Analyzer Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS System Generation Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS System Management Master Index.pdf 1988_04_VMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference Manual Part II.pdf 1988_04_VMS System Services Reference Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Terminal Fallback Utility Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS Utility Routines Manual.pdf 1988_04_VMS VAXcluster Manual.pdf 1988_08_PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 Language Reference Manual.pdf 1988_08_PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 Object Time System Reference Manual.pdf 1988_08_PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User's Guide.pdf 1988_08_VMS DECwindows Guide to Non-C Bindings.pdf 1988_12_VMS Version 5.1 Installation Guide.pdf 1989_05_DECforms Guide to Converting VAX FMS Applications.pdf 1989_10_Realtime Systems and Options Catalog.pdf 1989_11_Systems and Options Catalog VAX Systems DECSystems BW.pdf 1989_11_Systems and Options Catalog VAX Systems DECSystems GREYSCALE.pdf 1990_05_SD89X SERIES DISK DRIVE USER's MANUAL.pdf 1990_06_VMS DECwindows Device Driver Manual.pdf 1990_06_VMS DECwindows Display PostScript System Programming Supplement.pdf 1990_11_SLC-1 User's Manual.pdf 1991_08_DECWindows Extensions to Motif.pdf 1991_08_VMS DECwindows Guide to Xlib Release 4 Programming MIT C Binding.pdf 1991_08_VMS DECwindows Guide to Xlib Release 4 Programming VAX Binding.pdf 1991_08_VMS DECwindows Motif Guide to Application Programming.pdf 1991_08_VMS DECwindows Transport Manual.pdf From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Mon Nov 24 13:11:57 2014 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:11:57 +0000 Subject: VAX/VMS Manuals Sets Available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well done for scanning them first Lee! On 24 November 2014 at 19:01, Lee Courtney wrote: > VMS 4.4 and 5.0 manual sets, plus some additional bits and pieces available > for pick-up (only) in Menlo Park CA 94025, first-come first-serve. Sorry, > paper only, no binders. Must be gone by Sunday November 30. Contact me > off-list via lee_courtney (at) acm (dot) org. > > I have scanned all these and they are headed to Al as soon as I can finish > post-processing and convert filenames. > > Here is a list of available documents: > 0000_00_Extensible VAX Editor (EVE).pdf > 0000_00_PDP-11 44 Site Planning Material.pdf > 0000_00_VAX C Runtime Library Reference Manual.pdf > 1976_05_DMS 500 USER'S GUIDE.pdf > 1979_06_LA120 USER GUIDE.pdf > 1982_02_Silent 700 Model 745 Portable Data Terminal Operating > Instructions.pdf > 1982_05_Programming in VAX 11 C.pdf > 1982_05_VAX VMS Guide to Writing a Device Driver.pdf > 1982_11_BASIC Reference Manual.pdf > 1982_11_BASIC User's Guide.pdf > 1983_01_Introduction to VAX-11 FMS.pdf > 1983_09_Correspondent Operator Reference Guide.pdf > 1983_09_Correspondent Programmer Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_02_BASIC User's Guide.pdf > 1984_08_VAX FMS Installation Guide and Release Notes.pdf > 1984_08_VAX FMS Utilities Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_Guide to Networking on VAX VMS.pdf > 1984_09_Patch Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS Accounting Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS Authorize Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS Bad Block Locator Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS Command Definition Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS DELTA XDELTA Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS Disk Quota Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS Install Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS Librarian Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS Linker Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS Mail Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS Message Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS Mount Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS Phone Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS Sort Merge Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS System Generation Utility reference Manual.pdf > 1984_09_VAX VMS Verify Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1984_11_M2311K M2312K Disk Drives Engineering Specification.pdf > 1985_03_TC11 TAPE CONTROLLER TECHNICAL MANUAL.pdf > 1985_07_Guide to VAX VMS System Security.pdf > 1985_07_M2311K M2312K Microdisk Drives Customer Engineering Manual.pdf > 1985_07_VAX VMS Error Log Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1985_07_VAX VMS Exchange Utility Refeence Manual.pdf > 1986_04_VAX VMS Access Control List Editor Reference Manual.pdf > 1986_04_VAX VMS Backup Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1986_04_VAX VMS DCL Concepts Manual.pdf > 1986_04_VAX VMS DCL Dictionary.pdf > 1986_04_VAX VMS Debugger Reference Manual.pdf > 1986_04_VAX VMS IO User's Reference Manual Part 1.pdf > 1986_04_VAX VMS Monitor Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1986_04_VAX VMS Network Control Program Reference Manual.pdf > 1986_04_VAX VMS Networking Manual.pdf > 1986_04_VAX VMS Show Cluster Utility Reference Manual.pdf > 1986_04_VAX VMS System Dump Analyzer Reference Manual.pdf > 1986_04_VAX VMS System Manager's Reference Manual.pdf > 1986_04_VAX VMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference > Manual.pdf > 1986_04_VAX VNS Debugger Reference Manual.pdf > 1987_03_EMULUX PDP-11 LSI-11 DIAGNOSTIC DISTRIBUTION KIT.pdf > 1987_03_Guide to VAX C.pdf > 1987_04_Guide to VAX DEC Code Management System.pdf > 1987_04_Guide to VAX DEC Module Management System.pdf > 1987_04_VAX DEC Code Management System Callable Routines Reference > Manual.pdf > 1988_04_Guide to Creating VMS Modular Procedures.pdf > 1988_04_Guide to DECnet-VAX Networking.pdf > 1988_04_Guide to Maintaining a VMS System.pdf > 1988_04_Guide to Setting Up a VMS System.pdf > 1988_04_Guide to Using VMS Command Procedures.pdf > 1988_04_Guide to Using VMS.pdf > 1988_04_Guide to VMS File Applications.pdf > 1988_04_Guide to VMS Files and Devices.pdf > 1988_04_Guide to VMS Performance Management.pdf > 1988_04_Guide to VMS Programming Resources.pdf > 1988_04_Guide to VMS System Security.pdf > 1988_04_Guide to VMS Text Processing.pdf > 1988_04_Introduction to the VMS Run-Time Library.pdf > 1988_04_Introduction to VMS System Management.pdf > 1988_04_Introduction to VMS System Routines.pdf > 1988_04_Introduction to VMS System Services.pdf > 1988_04_Introduction to VMS.pdf > 1988_04_VAX DIGITAL Standard Runoff Reference Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VAX EDT Reference Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VAX VMS I O User's Reference Manual Part II.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Accounting Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Analyze Disk_Structure Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Analyze RMS File Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Authorize Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Backup Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Bad Block Locator Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Command Definition Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Convert and Convert Reclaim Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS DCL Dictionary.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Debugger Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS DECnet Test Sender DECnet Test Receiver Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Delta XDelta Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Device Support.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Error Log Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Exchange Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS File Definition Language Facility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS General User Master Index.pdf > 1988_04_VMS General User's Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Glossary.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Install Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Installation and Operations VAX-11 725, 730.pdf > 1988_04_VMS IO User's Reference Manual Part 1.pdf > 1988_04_VMS IO User's Reference Manual Part II.pdf > 1988_04_VMS LAT Control Program Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Librarian Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Linker Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Mail Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Master Index.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Message Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Monitor Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Mount Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS National Character Set Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Network Control Program Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Networking Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Patch Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Phone Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Programming Master Index.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Record Management Services Reference Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS RTL DECtalk DTK$ Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS RTL General Purpose OTS$ Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS RTL Library Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS RTL Mathematics Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS RTL Parallel Processing Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS RTL Screen Management (SMG$) Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS RTL String Manipulation Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Show Cluster Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Sort Merge Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS SUMSLP Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS SYSMAN Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS System Dump Analyzer Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS System Generation Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS System Management Master Index.pdf > 1988_04_VMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference Manual Part > II.pdf > 1988_04_VMS System Services Reference Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Terminal Fallback Utility Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS Utility Routines Manual.pdf > 1988_04_VMS VAXcluster Manual.pdf > 1988_08_PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 Language Reference Manual.pdf > 1988_08_PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 Object Time System Reference Manual.pdf > 1988_08_PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User's Guide.pdf > 1988_08_VMS DECwindows Guide to Non-C Bindings.pdf > 1988_12_VMS Version 5.1 Installation Guide.pdf > 1989_05_DECforms Guide to Converting VAX FMS Applications.pdf > 1989_10_Realtime Systems and Options Catalog.pdf > 1989_11_Systems and Options Catalog VAX Systems DECSystems BW.pdf > 1989_11_Systems and Options Catalog VAX Systems DECSystems GREYSCALE.pdf > 1990_05_SD89X SERIES DISK DRIVE USER's MANUAL.pdf > 1990_06_VMS DECwindows Device Driver Manual.pdf > 1990_06_VMS DECwindows Display PostScript System Programming Supplement.pdf > 1990_11_SLC-1 User's Manual.pdf > 1991_08_DECWindows Extensions to Motif.pdf > 1991_08_VMS DECwindows Guide to Xlib Release 4 Programming MIT C > Binding.pdf > 1991_08_VMS DECwindows Guide to Xlib Release 4 Programming VAX Binding.pdf > 1991_08_VMS DECwindows Motif Guide to Application Programming.pdf > 1991_08_VMS DECwindows Transport Manual.pdf > From me at garrettmeiers.com Mon Nov 24 13:19:03 2014 From: me at garrettmeiers.com (Garrett S Meiers) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 14:19:03 -0500 Subject: VAX/VMS Manuals Sets Available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very nice! Garrett Meiers Founder, BitHistory.org & President, ConsulNIX, LLC www.BitHistory.org www.linkedin.com/in/theunixguy On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > Well done for scanning them first Lee! > > On 24 November 2014 at 19:01, Lee Courtney wrote: > > > VMS 4.4 and 5.0 manual sets, plus some additional bits and pieces > available > > for pick-up (only) in Menlo Park CA 94025, first-come first-serve. Sorry, > > paper only, no binders. Must be gone by Sunday November 30. Contact me > > off-list via lee_courtney (at) acm (dot) org. > > > > I have scanned all these and they are headed to Al as soon as I can > finish > > post-processing and convert filenames. > > > > Here is a list of available documents: > > 0000_00_Extensible VAX Editor (EVE).pdf > > 0000_00_PDP-11 44 Site Planning Material.pdf > > 0000_00_VAX C Runtime Library Reference Manual.pdf > > 1976_05_DMS 500 USER'S GUIDE.pdf > > 1979_06_LA120 USER GUIDE.pdf > > 1982_02_Silent 700 Model 745 Portable Data Terminal Operating > > Instructions.pdf > > 1982_05_Programming in VAX 11 C.pdf > > 1982_05_VAX VMS Guide to Writing a Device Driver.pdf > > 1982_11_BASIC Reference Manual.pdf > > 1982_11_BASIC User's Guide.pdf > > 1983_01_Introduction to VAX-11 FMS.pdf > > 1983_09_Correspondent Operator Reference Guide.pdf > > 1983_09_Correspondent Programmer Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_02_BASIC User's Guide.pdf > > 1984_08_VAX FMS Installation Guide and Release Notes.pdf > > 1984_08_VAX FMS Utilities Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_Guide to Networking on VAX VMS.pdf > > 1984_09_Patch Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS Accounting Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS Authorize Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS Bad Block Locator Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS Command Definition Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS DELTA XDELTA Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS Disk Quota Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS Install Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS Librarian Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS Linker Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS Mail Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS Message Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS Mount Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS Phone Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS Sort Merge Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS System Generation Utility reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_09_VAX VMS Verify Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1984_11_M2311K M2312K Disk Drives Engineering Specification.pdf > > 1985_03_TC11 TAPE CONTROLLER TECHNICAL MANUAL.pdf > > 1985_07_Guide to VAX VMS System Security.pdf > > 1985_07_M2311K M2312K Microdisk Drives Customer Engineering Manual.pdf > > 1985_07_VAX VMS Error Log Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1985_07_VAX VMS Exchange Utility Refeence Manual.pdf > > 1986_04_VAX VMS Access Control List Editor Reference Manual.pdf > > 1986_04_VAX VMS Backup Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1986_04_VAX VMS DCL Concepts Manual.pdf > > 1986_04_VAX VMS DCL Dictionary.pdf > > 1986_04_VAX VMS Debugger Reference Manual.pdf > > 1986_04_VAX VMS IO User's Reference Manual Part 1.pdf > > 1986_04_VAX VMS Monitor Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1986_04_VAX VMS Network Control Program Reference Manual.pdf > > 1986_04_VAX VMS Networking Manual.pdf > > 1986_04_VAX VMS Show Cluster Utility Reference Manual.pdf > > 1986_04_VAX VMS System Dump Analyzer Reference Manual.pdf > > 1986_04_VAX VMS System Manager's Reference Manual.pdf > > 1986_04_VAX VMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference > > Manual.pdf > > 1986_04_VAX VNS Debugger Reference Manual.pdf > > 1987_03_EMULUX PDP-11 LSI-11 DIAGNOSTIC DISTRIBUTION KIT.pdf > > 1987_03_Guide to VAX C.pdf > > 1987_04_Guide to VAX DEC Code Management System.pdf > > 1987_04_Guide to VAX DEC Module Management System.pdf > > 1987_04_VAX DEC Code Management System Callable Routines Reference > > Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_Guide to Creating VMS Modular Procedures.pdf > > 1988_04_Guide to DECnet-VAX Networking.pdf > > 1988_04_Guide to Maintaining a VMS System.pdf > > 1988_04_Guide to Setting Up a VMS System.pdf > > 1988_04_Guide to Using VMS Command Procedures.pdf > > 1988_04_Guide to Using VMS.pdf > > 1988_04_Guide to VMS File Applications.pdf > > 1988_04_Guide to VMS Files and Devices.pdf > > 1988_04_Guide to VMS Performance Management.pdf > > 1988_04_Guide to VMS Programming Resources.pdf > > 1988_04_Guide to VMS System Security.pdf > > 1988_04_Guide to VMS Text Processing.pdf > > 1988_04_Introduction to the VMS Run-Time Library.pdf > > 1988_04_Introduction to VMS System Management.pdf > > 1988_04_Introduction to VMS System Routines.pdf > > 1988_04_Introduction to VMS System Services.pdf > > 1988_04_Introduction to VMS.pdf > > 1988_04_VAX DIGITAL Standard Runoff Reference Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VAX EDT Reference Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VAX VMS I O User's Reference Manual Part II.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Accounting Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Analyze Disk_Structure Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Analyze RMS File Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Authorize Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Backup Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Bad Block Locator Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Command Definition Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Convert and Convert Reclaim Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS DCL Dictionary.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Debugger Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS DECnet Test Sender DECnet Test Receiver Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Delta XDelta Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Device Support.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Error Log Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Exchange Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS File Definition Language Facility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS General User Master Index.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS General User's Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Glossary.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Install Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Installation and Operations VAX-11 725, 730.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS IO User's Reference Manual Part 1.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS IO User's Reference Manual Part II.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS LAT Control Program Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Librarian Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Linker Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Mail Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Master Index.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Message Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Monitor Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Mount Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS National Character Set Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Network Control Program Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Networking Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Patch Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Phone Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Programming Master Index.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Record Management Services Reference Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS RTL DECtalk DTK$ Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS RTL General Purpose OTS$ Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS RTL Library Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS RTL Mathematics Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS RTL Parallel Processing Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS RTL Screen Management (SMG$) Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS RTL String Manipulation Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Show Cluster Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Sort Merge Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS SUMSLP Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS SYSMAN Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS System Dump Analyzer Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS System Generation Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS System Management Master Index.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference Manual Part > > II.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS System Services Reference Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Terminal Fallback Utility Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS Utility Routines Manual.pdf > > 1988_04_VMS VAXcluster Manual.pdf > > 1988_08_PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 Language Reference Manual.pdf > > 1988_08_PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 Object Time System Reference Manual.pdf > > 1988_08_PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User's Guide.pdf > > 1988_08_VMS DECwindows Guide to Non-C Bindings.pdf > > 1988_12_VMS Version 5.1 Installation Guide.pdf > > 1989_05_DECforms Guide to Converting VAX FMS Applications.pdf > > 1989_10_Realtime Systems and Options Catalog.pdf > > 1989_11_Systems and Options Catalog VAX Systems DECSystems BW.pdf > > 1989_11_Systems and Options Catalog VAX Systems DECSystems GREYSCALE.pdf > > 1990_05_SD89X SERIES DISK DRIVE USER's MANUAL.pdf > > 1990_06_VMS DECwindows Device Driver Manual.pdf > > 1990_06_VMS DECwindows Display PostScript System Programming > Supplement.pdf > > 1990_11_SLC-1 User's Manual.pdf > > 1991_08_DECWindows Extensions to Motif.pdf > > 1991_08_VMS DECwindows Guide to Xlib Release 4 Programming MIT C > > Binding.pdf > > 1991_08_VMS DECwindows Guide to Xlib Release 4 Programming VAX > Binding.pdf > > 1991_08_VMS DECwindows Motif Guide to Application Programming.pdf > > 1991_08_VMS DECwindows Transport Manual.pdf > > > From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 24 14:33:04 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 12:33:04 -0800 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <20141124110341.A34830@shell.lmi.net> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie>, <20141124080538.D32955@shell.lmi.net> <20141124110341.A34830@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <54739600.6040400@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-24 11:05, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 24 Nov 2014, tony duell wrote: >> If you can make a real DEC RX02 unit do anything useful with a PC type >> '1.2M' disk then I feel like saying I will eat one. The RX02 drive. It's >> a dual 8" unit... > > My mistake! > > BUT, couldn't a "1.2M" 5.25" drive be cabled to the DEC? > Those diskettes might be slightly easier to find blanks than 8" The interface for the RX01/RX02 is not like any other floppy interface either. Lots of low level stuff is done out in the drive. The controller board itself is fairly simple. So you don't actually have the low level signals passed from the drive to the controller on them. Johnny From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 24 14:47:42 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 12:47:42 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 In-Reply-To: <54736267.7040203@bitsavers.org> References: <20141124142952.798A218C19A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54736267.7040203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5473996E.20409@sydex.com> On 11/24/2014 08:52 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > IBM-branded, Dysan, and 3M have held up pretty well, most of the rest > esp Verbatim, BASF, and Memorex, have not, and baking will not help them. As Mike pointed out, Wabash has earned a special place of honor in the list of the truly awful--but it seems, mostly in diskettes. I've not run into any particularly unusual problems with Wabash 1/2" tape. --Chuck From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Mon Nov 24 14:53:33 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 20:53:33 +0000 (WET) Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 24 Nov 2014 12:32:18 -0500" <5725FDD4575C4E48BCCB14ACE9E25EBC@310e2> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01PFCCE97XUW004LSY@beyondthepale.ie> > >You're probably signed up under two different email addresses; check the >address on your incoming mail and if they're different unsub one of them. > Thanks for the suggestion Mike. It looks like I'm getting one copy of each message with a cctech From: address and a second copy of each with a cctalk From: address. My address looks identical on all the mails. I've tried unsubscribing from cctalk (as I want to stay on cctech, where I've always been) using: http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/options/cctalk It tells me "The confirmation email has been sent." but it never arrives here and I keep getting two copies of everything. I thought others might be having the same problem but I guess not otherwise there would be a chorus of "Me too!" by now (Wasn't that Me too! at one time?) So nobody else is seeing this behaviour then? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 24 15:02:49 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 16:02:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX/VMS Manuals Sets Available Message-ID: <20141124210249.5DBFA18C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lee Courtney > I have scanned all these and they are headed to Al Wow! That's quite a list of scanned stuff! You must have been using something with mechanical page-feed! :-) Hats off for such a great effort for preservation! Noel From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 15:11:45 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 16:11:45 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Just to feed the flames, here are some interesting statistics (2011) concerning electrical safety: UK: Total number of households: 26.4 million Total number of household fires due to electric issues: 20400 US: Total number of households: 115 million Total number of household fires due to electric issues: 47700 WTF, UK? (watch for wrap!) Refs: http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/news-and-campaigns/policies-and-research/statistics/ http://www.nfpa.org/research/reports-and-statistics/fire-causes/electrical http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census/population-estimates-by-five-year-age-bands--and-household-estimates--for-local-authorities-in-the-united-kingdom/stb-population-and-household-estimates-for-the-united-kingdom-march-2011.html http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html -- Will From charles at uniwho.com Mon Nov 24 15:13:18 2014 From: charles at uniwho.com (Charles) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 16:13:18 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> Message-ID: isn?t the UK also known for the Highest amount of violent crimes as well? On Nov 24, 2014, at 4:11 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Just to feed the flames, here are some interesting statistics (2011) > concerning electrical safety: > > UK: > Total number of households: 26.4 million > Total number of household fires due to electric issues: 20400 > > US: > Total number of households: 115 million > Total number of household fires due to electric issues: 47700 > > WTF, UK? > > (watch for wrap!) > > Refs: > http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/news-and-campaigns/policies-and-research/statistics/ > http://www.nfpa.org/research/reports-and-statistics/fire-causes/electrical > http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census/population-estimates-by-five-year-age-bands--and-household-estimates--for-local-authorities-in-the-united-kingdom/stb-population-and-household-estimates-for-the-united-kingdom-march-2011.html > http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html > > -- > Will From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Nov 24 15:14:24 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 16:14:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: List memberships and duplicates [was Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media!] In-Reply-To: <01PFCCE97XUW004LSY@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <01PFCCE97XUW004LSY@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <201411242114.QAA19897@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> You're probably signed up under two different email addresses; check >> the address on your incoming mail and if they're different unsub one >> of them. > It looks like I'm getting one copy of each message with a cctech > From: address and a second copy of each with a cctalk From: address. Me too. I tried unsubbing from cctech and was told I wasn't subscribed. So I've just left it, figuring Jay has bigger fish to fry for the moment - if it really bugged me I'd procmail the cctech copy to /dev/null. If it's still going on whenever it seems to me it's worth mentioning again (a month? two?), I may see if Jay has the spare cycles then to deal with it. I suspect, though, that this is one of the things that's behind the recent requests for mailman expertise, and that not much will happen until someone(tm) picks up that task. (I sure don't have that expertise, or I'd've spoken up; my interactions with mailman have been as a listmember, not as any kind of admin.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jim at photojim.ca Mon Nov 24 15:17:42 2014 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 15:17:42 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <051801d0082c$15ef9370$41ceba50$@photojim.ca> Just a guess, but the UK by and large is much colder than the US but generally not severely cold anywhere. That might result in a) higher use of heating, and b) higher use of electrical heating when heating is present. Jim -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: November-24-14 3:12 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Just to feed the flames, here are some interesting statistics (2011) concerning electrical safety: UK: Total number of households: 26.4 million Total number of household fires due to electric issues: 20400 US: Total number of households: 115 million Total number of household fires due to electric issues: 47700 WTF, UK? From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Nov 24 15:20:49 2014 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 13:20:49 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > On Nov 24, 2014, at 12:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > Stuff I know need 3-phase: > VAX 86x0 machines. They have 3-phase motors for the fans. (Don't wire things up backwards, or your airflow will run backwards, which is not good.) > RP06 disk drives. They use 2 phases for their motors. > > I wasn't aware that the KL needs 3-phase, but it might just be that the power supplies are large enough, and complicated enough, that you can't just rewire them. > The main DC supply for the KL CPU requires 3-phase. It uses a ferro-resonant transformer and that requires 3-phase. There are also a number of 3-phase fans. Since I don't have 3-phase at my shop, I'm planning on re-doing my KL's power supplies to be modern switchers run off of 240v (to keep the current draw lower). That and replacing the 3-phase fans should allow me to run my KL from 240v. From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Mon Nov 24 15:28:05 2014 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 13:28:05 -0800 Subject: List memberships and duplicates [was Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media!] In-Reply-To: <201411242114.QAA19897@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <01PFCCE97XUW004LSY@beyondthepale.ie> <201411242114.QAA19897@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <61D8C048-9B50-4A26-8F25-9C0357CF38C4@fozztexx.com> On Nov 24, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Mouse wrote: > Me too. I tried unsubbing from cctech and was told I wasn't > subscribed. So I've just left it, figuring Jay has bigger fish to fry > for the moment - if it really bugged me I'd procmail the cctech copy to > /dev/null. If it's still going on whenever it seems to me it's worth > mentioning again (a month? two?), I may see if Jay has the spare cycles > then to deal with it. I?ve been getting the duplicates too and also haven?t said anything for the same reasons. I did check the ?List-" headers to see if I was getting a copy from cctech, but it?s not coming from there. I suspect what?s happening is the cctech is forwarding to cctalk, or has cctalk as a subscriber, and the cctalk list is not checking or storing the Message-ID to prevent duplicate messages. Like you, I?m not an expert on mailman. The last time I ran a mailing list I used procmail?s SmartList. -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Nov 24 15:40:53 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 22:40:53 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20141124214053.GD15109@beast.freibergnet.de> Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/23/2014 03:15 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >but sine you already have 240V outlets, it should be > >possible to change the distribution slowly to 3 phase > >power.. it's a matter of time and the only needed thing > >for compatibility are the transformers with modified > >secondaries. I don't think that this would ever happen > >since the US is the biggest US of the world and other > >people are just dumb aliens, aren't they? :-) But with > >that stone age power system you are stumbling over your > >own feet all the time.. Regards, Holm > > Well, we only have single phase 7200 V running down our > street. This 7200 V run goes a LONG way, > so an entire region that may be about a mile square is > running off a single phase HV line, that > branches over and over again into the neighborhood. Many of > these feeds that go back > into subdivisions are buried, and have pad-mount > transformers placed every few homes. > Our house has a pole-mount 50 KVA transformer that supplies > just our one house, although > that is kind of an accident of the layout. We are on the > corner lot, and otherwise probably > would have shared that transformer with a neighbor. Our LV > drop is buried. > So, what I'm saying here is there is a lot of high-cost > infrastructure that would have to be > ripped up (literally out of the ground) to go to 3 phase > into the homes. Not to mention > all the meters, service entry gear and breaker panels. I understand that it will be very expensive to change such a "naturally grown" infrastructure and this is that cause that I wrote that the US should have changed this long before nowi, where it is really to late to do that. Here in germany 1 phase power lines simply don't exist. The entire infrastructure is build with 3 phases and the phase balancing is made on every distribution paneel in every house. This is why it isn't a big problem to get a 3 phase outlet installed somewhere you need it. Most cables are in the ground, but on the other end of my village here (1km distance to the next city) there are some overhead lines with at least two transformers on masts that distribute 3x400V to groups of houses. > > I have a small machine shop in my basement, and some years > ago it seemed like 3-phase > would be real nice for that. Now that VFDs can run 3-phase > motors so nicely off single > phase power, it is no longer of much interest. Vacuum Flourescence Displays? :-) No, I know what you mean, and I have a unused small one (1500 Watts I think) that accepts single Phase 230V and puts out 3phase. I've put an FU (Frequenzumrichter, Frequency Inverter) on my old lathe from tne beginig of the fifties, ABB 2,2KW. BTW: Is it normal that american made asynchronous 3phase motors don't have a "clamp board" like this: http://www.elektrikforen.de/attachments/motoren-sch-tze-und-schaltungen/3343d1268687887-anschluss-einer-historischen-drehmaschiene-dsc00029.jpg ..and use 6 flying wires and a bag full washers,screws and nuts instead? My lathe has an US made Motor (..unusual voltages if I remember correctly, but one circuit fits well, forgot if star or triangle) Got this motor from a friend and saw the first time one without that clamp board (clamp board may not be correct, in german thats called Klemmbrett). > > Unless you desire to run a Cray 1 in your home (yeah, keep > dreaming) there really isn't > that much need for 3-phase power. Most machines that > "require" 3-phase can actually > be rewired internally to run off single-phase. One I can > think of that won't is the > KL-10B, which had a totally insane power system starting > with a 3-phase transformer > and rectifier. A mid-scale 370 like the 145 had a > motor-generator set, which could be > run off a large VFD. Or, replace the stupid MG and 415 Hz > power supplies with > off-the-shelf large power supplies running off single-phase > 240 V. > > Jon Again, I can accept that you are able to solve problems resulting from that single phase problem, but I know what would be the better way to do it. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 24 15:48:01 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 13:48:01 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141124172939.GA2731@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54728DFB.7070002@dunnington.plus.com> <20141124172939.GA2731@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <5BA9ABC9-DDFF-48C1-8F6C-53356B75F81B@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Nov-24, at 9:29 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: > [..] >> Once you require the transformers to get down from 240V, you might as well go to the center-tapped 55-0-55 technique at a small increase in complexity over 0-110 for a further safety improvement. > > If you would ask me if I would change the usual german installations > against the "higher security" of the NA system you would hear an > No thanks" for sure... > > I know of no other country in the world where Plugs are so secure that they > disconnect them selves from the outlet by simply falling out... Funny, I've never had a plug fall out of it's own accord. There is a certain benefit, when somebody trips over a tool cord or the vacuum cleaner is pulled to the cord limit, to having the plug release, than to having the plug dutifully stay in the receptacle and strain the cord or rip it off the appliance or the plug instead. I will point out my initial entry in this discussion was "all these systems have varying benefits and detriments", and "present varying tradeoffs". You can poke holes in any of them or say it would be better done this way or that way. From over here, the 240V, 3-phase into the house, plethora of different plugs (I take it that situation has been improving over the years), transformers required for common power tools, ring circuits, etc, etc. of the EU, etc. can seem arcane and bizarre, but then it's very much what one is familiar with. Don't worry, I have my own gripes about the NA system, like the stupid little wall outlet and switch boxes, with an incompetently-designed mounting methodology, that you're supposed to stuff all the wires and connections and devices into. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Mon Nov 24 15:51:00 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 15:51:00 -0600 Subject: IBM 9406-270 Install Media / Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <20141121144546.GA12082@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20141121144546.GA12082@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <20141124215100.GA4925@RawFedDogs.net> Classic Computer Enthusiasts, On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 08:45:46AM -0600, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > I took a chance on an IBM 9406-270: > > http://www.eBay.com/itm/291300259440 > > I probably paid way too much for it, especially without drives. The fact > that it was small enough to not require freight shipping appealed to me. Well, this may turn out to be more of an ordeal than I'd originally hoped. Shipping for the item was listed as "$50 Standard Shipping" with no mention of freight shipping. But, the seller shipped it via a freight carrier. Surprisingly they've assured there would be no additional freight charges, and have even offered to reimburse me for lift-gate service if that ends up being required. There's no way a freight carrier could get in and out of my driveway, and there's no one home during the day to accept the delivery. Hopefully I can arrange dock pick-up. I'm think it's small enough that I could get it in and out of my mini-van myself. > Does anyone have suitable OS/400 install media for this box I could borrow > or get a copy of? Thanks to someone on another list I have copies of install media. > I know I need AS/400 specific drives for this box. I've also ordered a two drives. > I'll also need a twinax terminal for a console, and probably a multi-port > twinax connector block since one wasn't listed in the eBay listing with the > box itself. I've been told if I acquire a second ethernet card I can set up one for console access instead of using a twinax terminal as the console. Does anyone know if that requires special software or can 5250 emulator can be used for the console? All my PCs run Linux so if Windoze software is required that could be a problem. Actually I like twinax terminals, especially the keyboards, but there are very few listed on eBay right now and they're all more than I'd really want to pay for one. Does anyone have a twinax terminal in need of a good home? -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 24 15:48:45 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 13:48:45 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141124133924.GA214461@mooli.org.uk> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <20141124133924.GA214461@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <02244161-B1C1-49D4-84A1-9360EEE78CBD@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Nov-24, at 5:39 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 02:12:15PM -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > [...] >> The ring system in Britain with fuses in the plugs provides a safety factor >> of appropriately limited current at the wall. On the other hand, in NA the >> vast majority of in-wall house wiring is done with #14 wire(15A circuits), >> which is a lot easier to work than whichever gauge Britain uses for 25A or >> 32A circuits. > > Actually, we use the same gauge, except it's in metric :) Or to give actual > figures, 32A ring circuits typically use 2.5mm^2 cable, whereas #14 is > approximately 2.1mm^2. It's stiffer than 13A mains flex, but easy enough to > work with. > > The ring circuit provides two paths back to the fuse box, so the whole circuit > can in theory carry twice the current. In practice, of course, the paths don't > have equal resistance so the current will not be shared equally. This > especially applies when one path has infinite resistance due to some muppet > cocking up the installation, as a quick continuity test won't detect it. Right, I was forgetting about the ring part and just looking at the current part (a 32A circuit in NA would require at least #10 wire (5.26 mm^2)), although it's interesting that size gauge is allowed even in light of the ring. But then you have to form the ring which is it's own expense, so in terms of my original point of varying tradeoffs it's just a different tradeoff.) >> The benefit of the North American split-phase system vs EU/Britain > > Point of order: The UK is part of the EU; Yes, tepidly it sometimes seems from watching from a distance, (and except for the Euro). They were just getting discussed with some distinctions in the course of the thread. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 24 15:51:10 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 13:51:10 -0800 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <01PFCCE97XUW004LSY@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <01PFCCE97XUW004LSY@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <0617BD97-D2AB-4E9B-8701-526613D343B7@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Nov-24, at 12:53 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> You're probably signed up under two different email addresses; check the >> address on your incoming mail and if they're different unsub one of them. >> > Thanks for the suggestion Mike. > > It looks like I'm getting one copy of each message with a cctech From: address > and a second copy of each with a cctalk From: address. My address looks > identical on all the mails. I've tried unsubscribing from cctalk (as I want to > stay on cctech, where I've always been) using: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/options/cctalk > > It tells me "The confirmation email has been sent." but it never arrives here > and I keep getting two copies of everything. > > I thought others might be having the same problem but I guess not otherwise > there would be a chorus of "Me too!" by now (Wasn't that Me too! > at one time?) > > So nobody else is seeing this behaviour then? I'm seeing occasional duplicates, say 5% of list traffic, but I am/was only on cctalk. Will have to look at some future ones to see if something distinguishes them. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 24 16:06:30 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 14:06:30 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <5BA9ABC9-DDFF-48C1-8F6C-53356B75F81B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54728DFB.7070002@dunnington.plus.com> <20141124172939.GA2731@beast.freibergnet.de> <5BA9ABC9-DDFF-48C1-8F6C-53356B75F81B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2014-Nov-24, at 1:48 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2014-Nov-24, at 9:29 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Brent Hilpert wrote: >> [..] >>> Once you require the transformers to get down from 240V, you might as well go to the center-tapped 55-0-55 technique at a small increase in complexity over 0-110 for a further safety improvement. >> >> If you would ask me if I would change the usual german installations >> against the "higher security" of the NA system you would hear an >> No thanks" for sure... >> >> I know of no other country in the world where Plugs are so secure that they >> disconnect them selves from the outlet by simply falling out... > > Funny, I've never had a plug fall out of it's own accord. > > There is a certain benefit, when somebody trips over a tool cord or the vacuum cleaner is pulled to the cord limit, to having the plug release, than to having the plug dutifully stay in the receptacle and strain the cord or rip it off the appliance or the plug instead. > > I will point out my initial entry in this discussion was "all these systems have varying benefits and detriments", and "present varying tradeoffs". You can poke holes in any of them or say it would be better done this way or that way. > >> From over here, the 240V, 3-phase into the house, plethora of different plugs (I take it that situation has been improving over the years), transformers required for common power tools, ring circuits, etc, etc. of the EU, etc. can seem arcane and bizarre, but then it's very much what one is familiar with. Talk about annoying mail program behaviour (Mac Mail), anytime one begins a sentence with the word "From" the mail program takes it as part of the message being replied to and quotes it. The above paragraph was from me and should not have been quoted. > Don't worry, I have my own gripes about the NA system, like the stupid little wall outlet and switch boxes, with an incompetently-designed mounting methodology, that you're supposed to stuff all the wires and connections and devices into. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 24 16:21:25 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 17:21:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 Message-ID: <20141124222125.D76BB18C185@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > IBM-branded, Dysan, and 3M have held up pretty well, most of the rest > esp Verbatim, BASF, and Memorex, have not, and baking will not help > them. Hmm. I had a number of second-hand floppies with what looked like it might be interesting stuff on them; I was planning on reading them, seeing if it was worth uploading, and then re-using the floppies. Unfortunately, dipping into one box of them, there are a lot of Verbatim and Memorex in there. Am I wasting my time even trying to read them to get the bits off, or what? Also, other brands I see that weren't listed above - Maxell and HP. Good/bad? Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 16:44:48 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 14:44:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <547390F5.4070807@sydex.com> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5725FDD4575C4E48BCCB14ACE9E25EBC@310e2> <547390F5.4070807@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141124143247.I34830@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Nov 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One of the easier methods of crossing the old-new divide is to replace > or add a 3.5" floppy drive to the XT and use 2D (not high-density) media > to exchange. Leave the other 5.25" floppy where it is. Of course, > you'll need the header-to-edge adapter and the power cable adapter, but > AFAIK, they're still available--as well as drive bracket adapters. Once you solved the power connector issue, you could usually find cables, or . . . use a fairly long AT cable, but use the middle floppy connector for the FDC!, the FDC connector for the 3.5" drive, and the end floppy connector for the other floppy drive. > Later versions of MS-DOS (I don't recall exactly when, but I think it > was around 3.3 or earlier, have a DRIVER.SYS installable driver to > handle the full 720K)--otherwise, you may be restricted to writing 360K. THAT would be version 3.20 of bothe MS-DOS and PC-DOS. They also had DRIVPARM as a CONFIG.SYS "command", that would reconfigure without adding another drive nor driver in [precious] RAM. But, that was not documented in the PC-DOS manuals, and for reasons as yet unexplained, would not work with the real IBM BIOS ROMs, although it did work [with either PC-DOS OR MS-DOS] with Award, Phoenix, and several generic BIOS ROMs. Also, SOME non-generic OEM versions of 2.11 that were put out with laptops supported 720K drives. > The actual type 3.5" drive doesn't matter much--you can use an HD or DD > drive, so long as it's media-sense and not host-directed for density > (almost all are) and you use DD disks (or cover the media type aperture > on the floppy.) Well, the "1.4M" media and the "720K" media was slightly different. 600? Oersted V 720? oersted, so it was close enough that you could usually get away with using the wrong one. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Nov 24 16:47:35 2014 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 15:47:35 -0700 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <20141124143247.I34830@shell.lmi.net> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5725FDD4575C4E48BCCB14ACE9E25EBC@310e2> <547390F5.4070807@sydex.com> <20141124143247.I34830@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >> Later versions of MS-DOS (I don't recall exactly when, but I think it >> was around 3.3 or earlier, have a DRIVER.SYS installable driver to >> handle the full 720K)--otherwise, you may be restricted to writing 360K. > > THAT would be version 3.20 of bothe MS-DOS and PC-DOS. > They also had DRIVPARM as a CONFIG.SYS "command", that would reconfigure > without adding another drive nor driver in [precious] RAM. But, that was > not documented in the PC-DOS manuals, and for reasons as yet unexplained, > would not work with the real IBM BIOS ROMs, although it did work [with > either PC-DOS OR MS-DOS] with Award, Phoenix, and several generic BIOS > ROMs. > > Also, SOME non-generic OEM versions of 2.11 that were put out with laptops > supported 720K drives. All this talk reminds me if the IMPDRIVE driver I wrote for my Rainbow back in the day so I could connect the 720k floppy drives to it and have them work. IIRC, it was little more than a thin wrapper to properly setup the parameters for the Rainbow?s default driver to access them correctly. Fun times. Warner From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 16:48:33 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 16:48:33 -0600 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: References: <54728C14.9080004@cimmeri.com> <54732F48.5080805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5473B5C1.7020903@gmail.com> On 11/24/2014 11:05 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > What we want here is 360K physical, right? In PC parlance, yes. The XT's most likely to be right; the AT might have "1.2MB" drives which will be no good - although they'll read 40-track media OK, they won't write it reliably. > It still leaves a chicken-and-egg problem, as neither of those machines > have any outward connectivity, nor do I have any media with something like > Laplink or an ISA NE2000 driver sitting around. Do you use the XT often? If not, personally I'd drop that drive into "something else" - even if it's a machine that just has a 3.5" drive too, where you can then sneakernet disk images via 3.5" media from a system that does have 'net connectivity. This is what I do currently; I do have ISA network boards kicking around, I just haven't got the tuits together yet - but I expect even then I'll still download on a modern system, and then FTP data across to the imaging machine. Incidentally, I did get burned big-time by an apparent bug in the FTP client I was using on my imaging system back in the UK, which resulted in the trashing of my entire image archive (that imaging system's still in storage, and I'm hoping the hard disk is still good when I eventually get to it) - so I am a bit wary of DOS-based network connectivity! I'm using a 40-track drive borrowed from my Tandy 1000 for imaging, just because I know I have spare drives back in the UK which will be here eventually, so I'm reluctant to spend money on more this side of the Atlantic! cheers Jules From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Mon Nov 24 16:56:12 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 16:56:12 -0600 Subject: IBM 9406-270 Install Media / Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <20141124215100.GA4925@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20141121144546.GA12082@RawFedDogs.net> <20141124215100.GA4925@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <20141124225611.GA12368@RawFedDogs.net> On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 03:51:00PM -0600, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > or can 5250 emulator can be used for the console? That should have read: or can any 5250 emulator be used for the console? -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Nov 24 16:56:22 2014 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 22:56:22 +0000 Subject: IMPDRIVE (was: Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media!) In-Reply-To: References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5725FDD4575C4E48BCCB14ACE9E25EBC@310e2> <547390F5.4070807@sydex.com> <20141124143247.I34830@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <99CE556F-F181-4C4F-8262-A36F43819914@swri.edu> Warner, wow, great to know you are on the list! I have a Rainbow 100(+, effectively) reasonably well-equipped. One of the upgrades I always wanted but never installed was an IMPDRIVE-driven floppy drive. It?s still original, but I keep wanting to get around to it. Long-belated thanks for your work on the Rainbow! - Mark On Nov 24, 2014, at 4:47 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > All this talk reminds me if the IMPDRIVE driver I wrote for my Rainbow > back in the day so I could connect the 720k floppy drives to it and have > them work. IIRC, it was little more than a thin wrapper to properly setup > the parameters for the Rainbow?s default driver to access them correctly. > Fun times. > > Warner > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 17:05:18 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 15:05:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <54738DDA.3040400@sydex.com> References: <20141124192510.AC1A318C18A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54738DDA.3040400@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141124145935.M34830@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Nov 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That one had me puzzled as well. In terms of *labeling*, some > manufacturers DID label their media as single- or double-density, which > to me means nothing more than they were verified using that particular > modulation. > Much the same situation exists for 5.25" media labeled "48 tpi", "96 > tpi" or "100 tpi". Verification with the same modulation as it would eventually be used with would seem to provide marginally better trustworthiness. Similarly, single sided and double sided disks were the same cookie, just not necessarily "guaranteed" for the second side. BUT, there were RUMORS that SOME manufacturers had high failure rates; so high that they tested both sides of the cookie. If both sides passed, then they sold them as "double sided". If only one side passed, they flipped to the correct side, and sold it as "Single sided". If neither side passed, then they sold the cookie to Wabash. I'm sure that Wabash denied using other manufacturers dumpster content. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 17:28:59 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 17:28:59 -0600 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <547390F5.4070807@sydex.com> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5725FDD4575C4E48BCCB14ACE9E25EBC@310e2> <547390F5.4070807@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5473BF3B.2020104@gmail.com> On 11/24/2014 02:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One of the easier methods of crossing the old-new divide is to replace or > add a 3.5" floppy drive to the XT and use 2D (not high-density) media to > exchange. How obtainable is DD 3.5" media these days? I've seen precisely *one* disk in the last seven years, which suggests that it's rather rare, at least locally. I've not searched online with an intention of buying any, though; I'm just surprised that it's not still relatively common in thruft* stores etc. in the form of used disks (after all, there were plenty of machines such as the Amiga using them which were still around into the '90s) * typo, but I like it - a thrift store that sells cruft. > Leave the other 5.25" floppy where it is. Of course, you'll > need the header-to-edge adapter and the power cable adapter, but AFAIK, > they're still available--as well as drive bracket adapters. More modern early-Pentium PCs which have a "full" floppy cable - even if they only have a 3.5" drive fitted - seem to be around still, albeit in small numbers; I've grabbed a few from local Freecycle lists, Facebook groups etc. OP may get lucky and find a suitable power adapter that way, too. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 17:40:23 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 17:40:23 -0600 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <20141124145935.M34830@shell.lmi.net> References: <20141124192510.AC1A318C18A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54738DDA.3040400@sydex.com> <20141124145935.M34830@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5473C1E7.80407@gmail.com> On 11/24/2014 05:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > If neither side passed, then they sold the cookie to Wabash. Great, I only just cleaned my keyboard, too. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 18:06:09 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 17:06:09 -0700 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: <20141119011246.31ACC2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150058.0852B2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <20141119011246.31ACC2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Thanks to John's pointer, I've got a CM153 card, so I might be able to test my stash of CM100 drives at some point. Now I need to track down the CM153 driver, and an old enough PC that it's got a chance of working. Having an ISA slot is necessary but not sufficient; it also requires a sufficiently slow CPU, and I'm not sure where the cutoff is. Probably need a 286 or older. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 18:13:49 2014 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:13:49 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Message-ID: In installed three 30A 115VAC, one 20A 220VAC, and lots of 20A 115VAC just for the KS10. -- Michael Thompson From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 24 18:39:22 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:39:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Message-ID: <20141125003922.5B97A18C15A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Michael Thompson > just for the KS10 You have a KS-10? Way cool! What OS are you running on it? You should run ITS (the best PDP-10 OS _ever_, all sort of cool features), it was modified to run on a KS-10, and there are emulated KS-10's running it still. Noel From jws at jwsss.com Mon Nov 24 18:57:46 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 16:57:46 -0800 Subject: IBM 9406-270 Install Media / Drive Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <20141124225611.GA12368@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20141121144546.GA12082@RawFedDogs.net> <20141124215100.GA4925@RawFedDogs.net> <20141124225611.GA12368@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <5473D40A.30706@jwsss.com> On 11/24/2014 2:56 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 03:51:00PM -0600, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > >> or can 5250 emulator can be used for the console? > That should have read: > > or can any 5250 emulator be used for the console? Perle made terminal emulator support for 5250. You will need cables for the Twinax however. You may want to try to get a card and all the gear to run it, but such as below would work too. Perle-3i-7-Port-Twinax-Dial-Up-Server-Network-ASCII-Workstation-Controller http://www.ebay.com/itm/111526058133 This sort of device takes a serial terminal attached to it and allows you to run as a 5250 twinax. This is sold as a modem adapter, but the way you did dialup with this was to dial in with a serial terminal to this device. You can also just use it as a 5250 device. Note that a single 5250 twinax cable can attach more than one terminal by chaining them together all on a sequential cable. I thin this one may be set up to allow you to have three ports, which would be nice. Or attach a printer to one of the serial ports. The Twinax connectors are marked 1 and 2 because you need to be able to loop thru it. Goodluck with getting your setup going. Too bad they didn't disclose the shipping details. I hope they have SCSI drives in this late a model, so you can replace the disk drivews From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 19:15:25 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:15:25 -0600 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150058.0852B2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <20141119011246.31ACC2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5473D82D.9020509@gmail.com> On 11/24/2014 06:06 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Thanks to John's pointer, I've got a CM153 card, so I might be able to > test my stash of CM100 drives at some point. Now I need to track down > the CM153 driver, and an old enough PC that it's got a chance of > working. Having an ISA slot is necessary but not sufficient; it also > requires a sufficiently slow CPU, and I'm not sure where the cutoff > is. Probably need a 286 or older. Possibilities: 1) Machine with a 'turbo' switch, running in non-turbo mode? 2) Software "slow down" utility? (I remember these, but can't for the life of me remember the name of any of them!) 3) Underclock the system board? (I certainly did this on a 486 years ago, replacing its 33MHz oscillator with a 3.x MHz, with no apparent ill-effects with regards to stability) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 24 19:35:36 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 17:35:36 -0800 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <20141124143247.I34830@shell.lmi.net> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5725FDD4575C4E48BCCB14ACE9E25EBC@310e2> <547390F5.4070807@sydex.com> <20141124143247.I34830@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5473DCE8.6050308@sydex.com> On 11/24/2014 02:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > THAT would be version 3.20 of bothe MS-DOS and PC-DOS. > They also had DRIVPARM as a CONFIG.SYS "command", that would reconfigure > without adding another drive nor driver in [precious] RAM. But, that was > not documented in the PC-DOS manuals, and for reasons as yet unexplained, > would not work with the real IBM BIOS ROMs, although it did work [with > either PC-DOS OR MS-DOS] with Award, Phoenix, and several generic BIOS > ROMs. At least one of the PC-DOS versions (3.3?) supported DRIVPARM, but "hid" it requiring that the "DRIVPARM=" be followed by (IIRC) 3 hex 01 characters. Bizarre. DRIVER.SYS worked okay, though. --Chuck From david at attglobal.net Mon Nov 24 19:42:44 2014 From: david at attglobal.net (David Schmidt) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 20:42:44 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 In-Reply-To: <20141124222125.D76BB18C185@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141124222125.D76BB18C185@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5473DE94.3070206@attglobal.net> On 11/24/2014 5:21 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > [...] > Unfortunately, dipping into one box of them, there are a lot of Verbatim and > Memorex in there. Am I wasting my time even trying to read them to get the > bits off, or what? Inspect them visually. Spin the cookie carefully. Do they look moldy, splotchy, or otherwise crufty through the oval access hole? If so, don't bother. Or slice open the jacket (I use a paper cutter to shear off a folded edge), clean the cookie, and insert it into a clean jacket (if you have another). But if it looks ok, stick it in the drive, close the door, and listen carefully. Does it sound horrible and scratchy? Like sandpaper? Take it back out. It might already be too late, but it's not hard to clean the head. If things sound smooth or at least fairly smooth, you probably made it though the ages. Memorex and Control Data (5-1/4") are my all-time least favorites... From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 24 19:43:32 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 17:43:32 -0800 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <5473BF3B.2020104@gmail.com> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5725FDD4575C4E48BCCB14ACE9E25EBC@310e2> <547390F5.4070807@sydex.com> <5473BF3B.2020104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5473DEC4.50704@sydex.com> On 11/24/2014 03:28 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > How obtainable is DD 3.5" media these days? I've seen precisely *one* > disk in the last seven years, which suggests that it's rather rare, at > least locally. I've not searched online with an intention of buying any, > though; I'm just surprised that it's not still relatively common in > thruft* stores etc. in the form of used disks (after all, there were > plenty of machines such as the Amiga using them which were still around > into the '90s) I just shipped about 300 Sony DSDDs today. Free for shipping. Sorry, I don't have another batch ready to go, but if you want to *buy* NEW DSDD 3.5 media, I"m willing to talk. I've also got oodles of used DSDD 5.25" media; some used, some new. > More modern early-Pentium PCs which have a "full" floppy cable - even if > they only have a 3.5" drive fitted - seem to be around still, albeit in > small numbers; I've grabbed a few from local Freecycle lists, Facebook > groups etc. OP may get lucky and find a suitable power adapter that way, > too. ..or, depending on what he's using for a floppy controller, some manufacturers routed the extra motor-control and drive-select to unused positions on the cable so that three drives could be run on the same cable. DTC even had a board with a jumper enabling running the standard "Shugart" configuration with 4 drives on the same cable. Of course, when one drive spindle motor comes on, they *all* start spinning. Not such a good thing for a 5150 with the wimpy PSU. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 24 20:03:53 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 02:03:53 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <1416851987.2187475.194821613.405D788E@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> <1416851987.2187475.194821613.405D788E@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <5473E389.50307@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/11/2014 17:59, random832 at fastmail.us wrote: > Wikipedia says it was the other way around - lighting was cheaper, > creating a natural incentive to plug any device you could get away with > into the lighting circuit. AFAIR (not always guaranteed :-)), that's correct. Which is why we used to have bayonet adapters that could plug into pendant lighting sockets in place of a bulb, and why we also had what amounts to a T-piece or splitter, to allow both the bulb and the adapter to coexist. I think I still have some, somewhere. And pendant light sockets are of course virtually always two-wire, insulated (no metal except the two terminals), no earth. Aha, I've just found four such adapters and one splitter. If I have time tomorrow I'll post a photo somewhere3. -- Pete From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 24 20:03:22 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 02:03:22 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54728DFB.7070002@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5473E36A.1040203@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/11/2014 08:52, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Well, I'm willing to entertain counter-intuitive notions but I'm > really not convinced. Some reading suggests going beyond the current > level at which one loses intentional muscle control, while it will or > can result in involuntary muscle contractions, those contractions may > be more likely to result in hanging on rather than getting kicked > off, and you're more likely to exceed that current level with the > higher voltage. Getting 'thrown off' also has it's own set of > associated risks. I was just reporting what I read, which came from one of the members of the committee that made the decisions - after much "discussion", apparently. To be honest, I doubt there's much difference, and certainly any voltage in those regions can be fatal. In fact, much lower voltages can be fatal, if applied to broken skin such that current passes across (actually, through) your chest. That's why there's such a category as SELV. Yet I remember once getting a very painful shock from a 9V PP3 battery when a couple of terminals went through my skin, but fortunately only across one hand. > But isn't there an internal logic problem in there to begin with? I > thought the point of the step-down/isolation transformer for portable > tools was to reduce the 240V to a safer level (or is just to make it > easier for manufacturers, to only have to manufacture 110/120V tools > worldwide? Not really, the point is to reduce the maximum to *50V* above ground, which is below the 90V (?) "safe" threshold. in which case one would think the onus would be on NA to > change). Those transformers aren't required in NA because we're only > operating at 120V. Once you require the transformers to get down from > 240V, you might as well go to the center-tapped 55-0-55 technique at > a small increase in complexity over 0-110 for a further safety > improvement. As the EU requires. -- Pete From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 20:21:13 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 21:21:13 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54728DFB.7070002@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > Getting 'thrown off' also has it's own set of associated risks. "Getting thrown off" is pretty much where a most injuries occur. Common injuries are falling off ladders, dropping or jabbing a held tool, or slamming a limb into something sharp in reaction to the shock. Or, in some case, throwing a tool or fist and hitting someone else. It is really pretty difficult to kill yourself with 120 V AC. It is actually pretty difficult to even get mildly injured with 120 V AC. If you anticipate the shock, 120 V AC does not even really hurt much - just an intense sensation. More than a few electricians will test a household wire simply by feeling it. Obviously, here are cases where 120 V AC can be fatal - wet body, poor heart, and so on - but those cases are in a tiny minority. -- Will From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Nov 24 20:55:40 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 02:55:40 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20141125025539.GA233412@mooli.org.uk> On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 04:11:45PM -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > Just to feed the flames, here are some interesting statistics (2011) > concerning electrical safety: > > UK: > Total number of households: 26.4 million > Total number of household fires due to electric issues: 20400 > > US: > Total number of households: 115 million > Total number of household fires due to electric issues: 47700 > > WTF, UK? > > (watch for wrap!) > > Refs: > http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/news-and-campaigns/policies-and-research/statistics/ > http://www.nfpa.org/research/reports-and-statistics/fire-causes/electrical An amusing comparison, but the reports are clearly not measuring the same thing. The UK fires count fires that involved electrical appliances, which does not necessarily mean it was down to an electrical fault. Most of the 20,403 fires are "misuse" (10,735 fires) of "cooking appliances" (11,954 fires). I suspect these are mainly of the "forgot the grill was on" kind, and would continue to occur even if the properties didn't have electricity at all! The odds of dying if one has such a fire is 0.22% which are pretty good odds. The injury rate is 12% but it's not defined what an injury is. I suspect this mainly comes from emergency services figures: the fire brigade being called out to wake up a drunkard whose kitchen is full of smoke counts as a "fire", and a subsequent trip to A&E for a check-up for smoke inhalation and to bandage minor burns counts as an "injury". There were "21,300 reported U.S. non-confined home structure fires involving electrical distribution or lighting equipment resulted in 295 civilian deaths" i.e. a 14% risk of death from the fire. These are clearly more major incidents, directly caused by dodgy wiring or other dangerous electrical work. For the UK, the page contradicts itself in claiming eight deaths due to "Installations" but ten due to "Electricity supply - Wiring, cabling, plugs". That is some four or five times less lethal per capita than the USA. Fires and electrocutions are caused by *current*, and the voltage is very much a red herring. America should be treating its 110V supplies with the same respect the rest of the world gives to 220V, and not just half-jobbing it due to myths about the lower voltage being inherently safer. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 21:18:26 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 22:18:26 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141125025539.GA233412@mooli.org.uk> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <20141125025539.GA233412@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: > Fires and electrocutions are caused by *current*, and the voltage is very much > a red herring. America should be treating its 110V supplies with the same > respect the rest of the world gives to 220V, and not just half-jobbing it due > to myths about the lower voltage being inherently safer. Or that myth about "lethal" plugs here in the US. Yes, tens of thousands of people die every year to those damn things. One thing - why do UK people get so butthurt when it comes to US vs. UK electric systems? Generally, US electricians just do not care about how things are done in the UK. Both of the damn things work if you follow the rules, and they mostly work even when you do not. Right now, I am installing a light and a couple of outlet, and I suppose I moved another, larger box - and guess what? It is going to work just fine. No fires will be set. And I might just touch the wires on purpose. Stay tuned for the obituary. -- Will From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Nov 24 21:21:38 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 03:21:38 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <1416851987.2187475.194821613.405D788E@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> <1416851987.2187475.194821613.405D788E@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20141125032138.GB233412@mooli.org.uk> On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 12:59:47PM -0500, random832 at fastmail.us wrote: [...] > Wikipedia says it was the other way around - lighting was cheaper, creating a > natural incentive to plug any device you could get away with into the > lighting circuit. That's usually an artifact of a shared building where services that are shared or otherwise difficult to meter per tenant are included in the rent. By tapping into the communal circuits, one is really just stealing from the other tenants. From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 24 21:46:14 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 21:46:14 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> On 11/24/2014 02:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > I wasn't aware that the KL needs 3-phase, but it might > just be that the power supplies are large enough, and > complicated enough, that you can't just rewire them. > The KL10B had an immense 3-phase transformer, star rectifier and capacitor bank, which produced about 12 V DC. This was fed to a massive linear regulator on a huge round heat sink. Compuserve ran a LOT of KL10B's, and designed their own switching power supplies to save power and air conditioning costs. They never got DEC to pick up on that, so had to retrofit all the machines as they came in. Jon From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 24 21:54:29 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:54:29 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141125025539.GA233412@mooli.org.uk> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <20141125025539.GA233412@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <49AA56FD-360A-4035-BC2A-EF31CF78CE8D@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Nov-24, at 6:55 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 04:11:45PM -0500, William Donzelli wrote: ... >> Refs: >> http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/news-and-campaigns/policies-and-research/statistics/ >> http://www.nfpa.org/research/reports-and-statistics/fire-causes/electrical ... > For the UK, the page contradicts itself in claiming eight deaths due to > "Installations" but ten due to "Electricity supply - Wiring, cabling, plugs". > That is some four or five times less lethal per capita than the USA. I earlier tried looking up some empirical stats but (as expected) concluded that wasn't likely to be helpful, there are too many variables, including social and legal issues, to easily conclude a relation to voltage. For example, in my jurisdiction one is still allowed to wire one's own house, regardless of ability, which could skew accident stats negatively compared to a jurisdiction where only 'professionals' are allowed to touch any part of the installed electrical (I don't know what the rules are in the EU). > Fires and electrocutions are caused by *current*, and the voltage is very much > a red herring. America should be treating its 110V supplies with the same > respect the rest of the world gives to 220V, and not just half-jobbing it due > to myths about the lower voltage being inherently safer. Fires are caused by power not current; but you're right, there's plenty of power at the end of both a typical 120V circuit and 240V circuit to start a fire. As such, electrical fire risk is treated seriously on both sides of the pond. But I would quite suggest that the electrocution/shock-injury risk relation - based on the known physics & biology - between 12V, 120V, 240V, and 600V is an increasing and non-linear one. Trying to deny or toss off the difference in the 120-240V region as inconsequential just looks like an attempt at rationalisation. From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 24 23:13:53 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 21:13:53 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <54741011.5010905@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-24 19:46, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/24/2014 02:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> I wasn't aware that the KL needs 3-phase, but it might just be that >> the power supplies are large enough, and complicated enough, that you >> can't just rewire them. >> > The KL10B had an immense 3-phase transformer, star rectifier and capacitor > bank, which produced about 12 V DC. This was fed to a massive linear > regulator > on a huge round heat sink. Compuserve ran a LOT of KL10B's, and > designed their > own switching power supplies to save power and air conditioning costs. > They never > got DEC to pick up on that, so had to retrofit all the machines as they > came in. That it is huge and linear I know. I have actually replaced that fricking thing in a KL10. It was no fun. It is seriously heavy, for obvious reasons. (Although it's only the power for the memory system that is this heavy linear thing, unless I remember wrong.) What I wasn't aware of was that the power supply system actually depended on/needed 3-phase power, as opposed to just, say, grabbing the power between two phases (ie. getting 400V for Europe), or just use each phase separately, but use all of them to reduce the load on individual supplies. Johnny From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 24 23:49:07 2014 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 23:49:07 -0600 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> <20141123205539.71D312073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org> <547371E4.6060104@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: At 12:32 PM 11/24/2014, you wrote: > To give a more modern >perspective on things - how much gold do you think is in a Pentium Pro >microprocessor? Thick plate over a large surface area...go look it up, >and you will probably be surprised. Then do some back of the napkin >calculations on the surface area of the PPro, compared to thousands >upon thousands of pins in a 2075... Let's say that a Pentium Pro has a third of a gram; a troy ounce is 31.1 grams; so 94 Pentium Pro to the troy ounce; 4.5 pounds is about 65 troy ounces; so 6,182 Pentium Pro might have that much gold. The price of gold was still $35 a troy ounce in 1970; so that S/360's gold cost about $2,300 (or what feels like about $14,000 today.) In 2013 at $1,200 an ounce, that S/360's gold was worth $78,720. - John From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 00:08:39 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 01:08:39 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <20141125054919.092642073E9B@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> <20141123205539.71D312073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org> <547371E4.6060104@pico-systems.com> <20141125054919.092642073E9B@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Let's say that a Pentium Pro has a third of a gram; a troy ounce is > 31.1 grams; so 94 Pentium Pro to the troy ounce; 4.5 pounds is about > 65 troy ounces; so 6,182 Pentium Pro might have that much gold. There are 12 troy ounces to the pound, not 16. Anyway, yes, you are talking about something like 4800 PPros equivalent. Now compare the plated surface areas of a PPro compared to a number of the pins on the backplane - you will find that a gold plate area on a PPro (mind you, there is a fair amount under the cover, too) equates to a surprisingly small amount of old IBM backplane pins. Remember, the pins are long, and plated on four sides - and probably had a thicker plate that on PPros. And yes, the 75 was a really huge machine. Gold on the backplanes, gold on the connectors (early Bus&Tags have a very heavy plate), gold in transistors. I would not be surprised if there was gold in the lamp sockets. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 00:18:11 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 01:18:11 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> <20141123205539.71D312073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org> <547371E4.6060104@pico-systems.com> <20141125054919.092642073E9B@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Oops, I am a bit too tired, and something was bugging me about your calculations. PPros have more than a third of a gram - they are closer to a gram per unit. -- Will On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 1:08 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Let's say that a Pentium Pro has a third of a gram; a troy ounce is >> 31.1 grams; so 94 Pentium Pro to the troy ounce; 4.5 pounds is about >> 65 troy ounces; so 6,182 Pentium Pro might have that much gold. > > There are 12 troy ounces to the pound, not 16. > > Anyway, yes, you are talking about something like 4800 PPros > equivalent. Now compare the plated surface areas of a PPro compared to > a number of the pins on the backplane - you will find that a gold > plate area on a PPro (mind you, there is a fair amount under the > cover, too) equates to a surprisingly small amount of old IBM > backplane pins. Remember, the pins are long, and plated on four sides > - and probably had a thicker plate that on PPros. > > And yes, the 75 was a really huge machine. Gold on the backplanes, > gold on the connectors (early Bus&Tags have a very heavy plate), gold > in transistors. I would not be surprised if there was gold in the lamp > sockets. > > -- > Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 25 00:33:12 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 06:33:12 +0000 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <54738DDA.3040400@sydex.com> References: <20141124192510.AC1A318C18A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <54738DDA.3040400@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Much the same situation exists for 5.25" media labeled "48 tpi", "96 > tpi" or "100 tpi". I have had 5.25" disks that would apparently format reliably at 48tpi (40 cylinders) but not at 96tpi. I guess it was that the magnetisation level was marginal anyway and you didn't get enough signal back with the narrower head. No, I didn't trust them, not even at 40 cylinders I remember similar issues with audio recording tape, some would be OK (just) for 2 track recording and useless for 4 track. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 25 00:48:39 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 06:48:39 +0000 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <201411242009.PAA02879@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> , <201411242009.PAA02879@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > > I thnik the 'must haves' depend very much on which aspect of this > > hobby you are interested in. > > And that, I agree with. > > I'm not sure whether I have a PC with a 5-1/4" drive installed, because > it's been an age since I cared about reading a 5-1/4" floppy. My own > focus is on machines a bit more recent; I focus on things like Suns, > NeXTen, and Alphas. Occasion to care about floppies - of any size - is > somewhere between "very rare" and "never" for me. I am in much the same position. The machines that I am most interested in either don't have floppies at all (e..g HP9830) or if they do, they're 8" (PERQs, Unibus PDP11s, Philips P800s). So I while I do have a setup for reading/writing 5.25" disks (I find a TRS80 Model 4 to be very useful for this, at least it has a WD controller...) it's not essential for me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 25 00:56:36 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 06:56:36 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <5473E389.50307@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20141123203832.GB23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54724BFC.2010207@update.uu.se> <1416851987.2187475.194821613.405D788E@webmail.messagingengine.com>, <5473E389.50307@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > > AFAIR (not always guaranteed :-)), that's correct. Which is why we used > to have bayonet adapters that could plug into pendant lighting sockets > in place of a bulb, and why we also had what amounts to a T-piece or > splitter, to allow both the bulb and the adapter to coexist. I think I I remember those T adapters. 2 bayonet sockets to one plug. Often one of the bayonet sockts was switched. Mostly by a button that slid through the adapter, red on one side (press for on) black on the other (guess), I did once see one with a cord (as in bit of string, not electric cable) coming out the side which you pulled to switch the controlled socket I have also seen (and probably still have somewhere) adapters to plug a 2 pin 5A plug into a bayonet socket. What I have never seen is a T adapter to go into a bayonet socket with one bayonet lampholder and a 2 pin 5A socket. Other oddities include a wooden bayonet plug (still have one, will not use it) and a bayonet plug where the business end slid back inside turning it into a 2 pin 5A plug. -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Nov 24 14:59:02 2014 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 21:59:02 +0100 Subject: Machinery, free for local pickup in Germany Message-ID: <54739C16.6010207@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. The Unix-AG has several machines taking up space. Those machines have not seen any use in many years. So we would like to give them into good hands. If YOU don't take the machines they will hit the dumpster, sooner or later. I can't rescue them. My flat is completely out of space. Problem: Local pickup in Kaiserslautern, Germany. Take them all, take only part of it. We don't care. As long as we can get rid of the stuff. Available is: - about half a dozen HP9000 B2600 - about half a dozen RS/6000 43P-100/-133 - about half a dozen RS/6000 44P-170 - one RS/6000 F50 - one Sun Enterprise 450 + the guts of an other E450 - one Sun Enterprise 250 + the guts of an other E250 - some Sun OEM thing, basicly a rackmount U60, dual 400 or 440 MHz. - one or two Sun Ultra 5 - one or two Sun Ultra 10 - one or two SparcStation 5 and 20 each. - Myrinet switches, cables and PCI adapters. (Copper and fiber optic.) - probably a SGI Indigo R4k and an Indigo2 R8k. - some minor stuff I forgot about. I may throw in some HP9000/700, SPARC and RS/6000 stuff from my private collection... (I need space to work on my PDP-11/34 and its Tektronix 4012...) -- tsch??, Jochen From djg at pdp8online.com Mon Nov 24 21:41:41 2014 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 22:41:41 -0500 Subject: RX01 Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141125034141.GA24244@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 05:54:23PM -0500, Michael Thompson wrote: > > So, where can I get some already formatted generic SSSD 8" floppies? > http://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html Possibly http://www.floppydisk.com/buy.htm Possibly ebay. Determining if they are formatted normal single density may be difficult. The only of above I have used is ebay when I wanted some true double sided disks for non DEC usage. I have a DSD drive that can format the disks I have acquired if needed. From commodorejohn at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 22:12:11 2014 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 20:12:11 -0800 Subject: DEC Professional 350 - video issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I went out to Seth's moving-sale giveaway this past weekend and came away with a few DEC goodies, including a DEC Professional 350 which was given to me on the understanding that the video didn't work. I set it up yesterday and sure enough, the video doesn't work. Specifically, the monitor (a VR201 with BCC02 cable) turns on and displays no picture, but shows visible sync lines all across and down the screen, and the diagnostic LEDs indicate a selftest failure on the card slot that the bitmap card is plugged into. (I tried moving it to another slot just to check, and sure enough, it fails there, too. I don't think it's a general CTI bus issue because the other two cards don't generate a selftest failure code. I did test the monitor with the Rainbow I also picked up and it's working fine.) The card itself doesn't have any socketed ICs, so it's not chip creep, and the ZIF connector looks to be in good shape. Beyond that, I don't know what to look for in diagnosing the issue - does anybody have any idea what might be wrong with it, and how it could be fixed? (Is there a service manual for the card out there somewhere? I couldn't find one.) From trash80 at internode.on.net Tue Nov 25 02:32:03 2014 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 19:32:03 +1100 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 In-Reply-To: <20141124142952.798A218C19A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141124142952.798A218C19A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <00b301d0088a$5d473080$17d59180$@internode.on.net> That may be the case Noel but a number of mine are looking a bit ordinary (and some definitely unusable) and until we spin a machine up we won't really know. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa Sent: Tuesday, 25 November 2014 1:30 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model 16 > From: Kevin Parker > good quality 8" media is a significant problem given its age .. > I have .. several hundred 8" floppies. .. > Some of the disks look like the parched earth of a desert so they'll be > a no go. As for the rest it's a guess - just be careful if you're > popping disks in and out and check if the surface of the disk is > visually OK and that it leaves nothing behind in the drive. I was under the impression that older floppies should be given the same 'heat soak' treatment given to old tapes (which makes sense; they are similar formulations on a mylar base). Once that is done, my understanding is that older floppies are actually generally quite usable, pretty must like they were when new? Noel From trash80 at internode.on.net Tue Nov 25 02:35:10 2014 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 19:35:10 +1100 Subject: retry: classiccmp help sought In-Reply-To: <00ce01d00814$58c3cee0$0a4b6ca0$@classiccmp.org> References: <00ce01d00814$58c3cee0$0a4b6ca0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00b401d0088a$c12a7a80$437f6f80$@internode.on.net> I can give you a response Jay - unfortunately I have no idea about mailman :-) but if you find anything else I may be able to help with just ask and I'll be happy to help if I can. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Tuesday, 25 November 2014 5:28 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: retry: classiccmp help sought I sent this a week ago, didn't get a response, thought I'd try one more time before trying to shoehorn time on my own to address (aka defying the physics of time): Greetings folks. Is there anyone that is *very* well versed in mailman "under the hood" that can do a one-time assist with the following: 1) Get the "two views of the same list but joined at the hip" working the way it previously was. I have some details/recollections on this, but not complete "do this" instructions. 2) There has been an ongoing issue for years with the "forgot password" emails and/or the new subscriber email verification not working right. 3) Please for the love of god figure out why every single post to the list gets me a "bounce rejection" notice to my mailbox and stop it. 4) Integrate multiple fragments (I have several, if that's not complete other listmembers have mentioned they can supply any missing fragments) of the list archives into one archive that is complete. FYI - when rebuilding the server a couple weeks ago, I switched from sendmail to postfix, so a passing familiarity with postfix would be helpful as well in your endeavors above. The OS is FreeBSD r10 p11. If anyone is versed in the above and has a bit of time to spearhead the above tasks, please email me off-list. Also - once the archives are cleaned up, two other folks have volunteered to get archive searches to be "much improved". Thanks!! J From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Nov 25 03:21:39 2014 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 10:21:39 +0100 Subject: Alpha and VAX Available in Sweden Message-ID: <20141125092139.GA10613@Update.UU.SE> Hi all I need to free up some space for new interesting things comming in. So after much thinking I'm letting these machines go: VAX 11/750 (Complete, some spares, needs love) Alphaserver 1000 4/233 (Broken PSU) Alphaserver 2100 5/300 (Deskside, one CPU) Alphaserver 8200 5/300 (fullsize rack: http://www.pdp8.se/bild/sthlm_haul/as8200.jpg) DEC 4000 AXP (http://www.pdp8.se/bild/sthlm_haul/axps_small.jpg) One caveat: I don't need all that space, so if the 11/750 goes the AS8200 can stay. The things are free if you pick them up. But I'm flexible when it comes to shipping but make me an offer that makes it worth it to me. Trades for smaller things or things with blinkenlights are welcome. I'm also selling Two MicroVAX 3500 in BA213 with two DSSI disk cabinets (R215F). Timeframe: I'd really like the things gone before March next year but I'm flexible here also. /P From aswood at t-online.de Tue Nov 25 03:13:41 2014 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 10:13:41 +0100 Subject: AW: Machinery, free for local pickup in Germany In-Reply-To: <54739C16.6010207@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <54739C16.6010207@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1XtCBp-0589aK0@fwd16.aul.t-online.de> Hallo Jochen, ich interessiere mich f?r: - die SGI Maschinen - die Rackmount U60 - zwei HP9000/B2600 - zwei RS6000 44P-170 - die 9000/700, die ggf. auch abgeben m?chtest. Ich komme gerne im Dezember vorbei. Andreas -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Machinery, free for local pickup in Germany Datum: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 09:29:07 +0100 Von: Jochen Kunz An: General at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de, Discussion at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de:On-Topic Posts Hi. The Unix-AG has several machines taking up space. Those machines have not seen any use in many years. So we would like to give them into good hands. If YOU don't take the machines they will hit the dumpster, sooner or later. I can't rescue them. My flat is completely out of space. Problem: Local pickup in Kaiserslautern, Germany. Take them all, take only part of it. We don't care. As long as we can get rid of the stuff. Available is: - about half a dozen HP9000 B2600 - about half a dozen RS/6000 43P-100/-133 - about half a dozen RS/6000 44P-170 - one RS/6000 F50 - one Sun Enterprise 450 + the guts of an other E450 - one Sun Enterprise 250 + the guts of an other E250 - some Sun OEM thing, basicly a rackmount U60, dual 400 or 440 MHz. - one or two Sun Ultra 5 - one or two Sun Ultra 10 - one or two SparcStation 5 and 20 each. - Myrinet switches, cables and PCI adapters. (Copper and fiber optic.) - probably a SGI Indigo R4k and an Indigo2 R8k. - some minor stuff I forgot about. I may throw in some HP9000/700, SPARC and RS/6000 stuff from my private collection... (I need space to work on my PDP-11/34 and its Tektronix 4012...) -- tsch??, Jochen From kspt.tor at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 04:10:01 2014 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 11:10:01 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Message-ID: On 24 November 2014 at 22:40, Holm Tiffe wrote: > I understand that it will be very expensive to change such a "naturally > grown" infrastructure and this is that cause that I wrote that the US > should have changed this long before nowi, where it is really to late to do > that. [upgrading (the US) infrastructure] But I'm wondering about Japan. As was mentioned by someone else earlier, their's an example of how it shouldn't be done. However, as part of that they already have a mix (so they're kind of used to that) of 50Hz and 60Hz depending on where you live.. and they use US (or as close as doesn't matter) plugs. At 100V. The whole system is quite frustrating, and scary to look at as well. Rickety-rackety. Reminds me of underdimensioned old 6V car wiring, with much of the same problems (dimming, heat..). So what I was thinking is that it should, in principle, be possible for Japan to introduce 230V in new areas (and new areas are built constantly), with European plugs not only to make it safer but also to clearly make the distinction. That's something that I believe could work in Japan, people tend to pay attention. I'm not so sure it would work anywhere else. That's something I would like to see. Not only because of my old linear transformer computer gear.. or the impossibility to use my favourite bread machine (doesn't come with an 100V AC motor). 100V isn't particularly energy efficient when it comes to distribution, and Japan needs to become much, much more energy efficient. > Here in germany 1 phase power lines simply don't exist. The entire > infrastructure is build with 3 phases and the phase balancing is made on > every distribution paneel in every house. This is why it isn't a big > problem to get a 3 phase outlet installed somewhere you need it. > Most cables are in the ground, but on the other end of my village here > (1km distance to the next city) there are some overhead lines with at least > two transformers on masts that distribute 3x400V to groups of houses. [3phase] Same in Norway (I'm traveling between Norway and Japan so experience both). Or at least in my town. The whole electricity infrastructure was reworked completely for all of the town some years ago. Everything moved from poles to sub-ground cabling, and 400V 3phase to every house, and taken from there. New houses and old ones are done a bit differently internally though. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Nov 25 04:18:59 2014 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 11:18:59 +0100 Subject: Alpha and VAX Available in Sweden In-Reply-To: <20141125092139.GA10613@Update.UU.SE> References: <20141125092139.GA10613@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20141125101859.GC10613@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 10:21:39AM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi all > > I need to free up some space for new interesting things comming in. So > after much thinking I'm letting these machines go: > > VAX 11/750 (Complete, some spares, needs love) > Alphaserver 1000 4/233 (Broken PSU) > Alphaserver 2100 5/300 (Deskside, one CPU) > Alphaserver 8200 5/300 (fullsize rack: http://www.pdp8.se/bild/sthlm_haul/as8200.jpg) > DEC 4000 AXP (http://www.pdp8.se/bild/sthlm_haul/axps_small.jpg) > > One caveat: I don't need all that space, so if the 11/750 goes the > AS8200 can stay. > > The things are free if you pick them up. But I'm flexible when it comes > to shipping but make me an offer that makes it worth it to me. Trades > for smaller things or things with blinkenlights are welcome. > > I'm also selling Two MicroVAX 3500 in BA213 with two DSSI disk cabinets > (R215F). > > Timeframe: I'd really like the things gone before March next year but > I'm flexible here also. > > /P I just remembered, I have a picture of the VAX 11/750 also: http://www.pdp8.se/slask/vax11750.jpg The green sticker is a weak magnet and can easily be removed. /P From classiccmp at crash.com Tue Nov 25 05:20:02 2014 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 03:20:02 -0800 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D6vningsk=F6r=2C_was_Re=3A_Alpha_and_V?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?AX_Available_in_Sweden?= In-Reply-To: <20141125101859.GC10613@Update.UU.SE> References: <20141125092139.GA10613@Update.UU.SE> <20141125101859.GC10613@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <547465E2.2090001@crash.com> On 11/25/2014 02:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I just remembered, I have a picture of the VAX 11/750 also: > http://www.pdp8.se/slask/vax11750.jpg The green sticker is a weak > magnet and can easily be removed. /P Surely by now you've earned your VAX driving license, Pontus? ;) (?vningsk?r ~= "student driver") From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Nov 25 05:24:41 2014 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 12:24:41 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D6vningsk=F6r?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=2C?= was Re: Alpha and VAX Available in Sweden In-Reply-To: <547465E2.2090001@crash.com> References: <20141125092139.GA10613@Update.UU.SE> <20141125101859.GC10613@Update.UU.SE> <547465E2.2090001@crash.com> Message-ID: <20141125112441.GD10613@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 03:20:02AM -0800, Steven M Jones wrote: > On 11/25/2014 02:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > I just remembered, I have a picture of the VAX 11/750 also: > > http://www.pdp8.se/slask/vax11750.jpg The green sticker is a weak > > magnet and can easily be removed. /P > > > Surely by now you've earned your VAX driving license, Pontus? ;) > > > > (?vningsk?r ~= "student driver") :-D By now I'm an expert in rolling the cabinets arround(real life sokoban), It's VMS I'm still learning. /P From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Nov 25 06:55:22 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 13:55:22 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20141125125521.GA71838@beast.freibergnet.de> William Donzelli wrote: > Just to feed the flames, here are some interesting statistics (2011) > concerning electrical safety: > > UK: > Total number of households: 26.4 million > Total number of household fires due to electric issues: 20400 > > US: > Total number of households: 115 million > Total number of household fires due to electric issues: 47700 > > WTF, UK? > [..] > -- > Will Will... a german saying is "not all things that limp are an comparsion" don't know it this is tranlateable at all.. Does it really matter how many people get killed trough electricity? If it matters how many people are getting killed, why the USA have that sick wepon laws at all? Why are the lawers there still allowed to kill people? How about policeman and their self-defence rights? (Ferguson). You shouldn't really think about the lethality for 230 Volts at the first place... BTW please show german numbers.. The UK != EU and Germany != EU and US != 1/EU or so.. Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 08:49:42 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 09:49:42 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141125125521.GA71838@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <20141125125521.GA71838@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: > Does it really matter how many people get killed trough electricity? > If it matters how many people are getting killed, why the USA have that > sick wepon laws at all? Why are the lawers there still allowed to kill > people? How about policeman and their self-defence rights? (Ferguson). Yeah...I am not going to touch this can of worms. Move on. > BTW please show german numbers.. I did not have them handy, and did not want to put to much effort into such simple analysis. -- Will From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 25 11:26:57 2014 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 11:26:57 -0600 Subject: Reading a CD that has no reflective layer In-Reply-To: References: <20141117202608.BADCF2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> <201411172051.PAA00086@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141118150058.0852B2073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <20141119011246.31ACC2073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 06:06 PM 11/24/2014, Eric Smith wrote: > Having an ISA slot is necessary but not sufficient; it also >requires a sufficiently slow CPU, and I'm not sure where the cutoff >is. Probably need a 286 or older. Yes, I think I saw a note that said 25 Mhz was too fast. - John From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Nov 25 11:28:26 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 18:28:26 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <20141125125521.GA71838@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20141125172826.GF82307@beast.freibergnet.de> William Donzelli wrote: > > Does it really matter how many people get killed trough electricity? > > If it matters how many people are getting killed, why the USA have that > > sick wepon laws at all? Why are the lawers there still allowed to kill > > people? How about policeman and their self-defence rights? (Ferguson). > > Yeah...I am not going to touch this can of worms. Move on. :-) Don't tought that anyway.. > > > BTW please show german numbers.. > > I did not have them handy, and did not want to put to much effort into > such simple analysis. > > -- > Will keep smiling, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 14:05:16 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 13:05:16 -0700 Subject: retry: classiccmp help sought In-Reply-To: <00ce01d00814$58c3cee0$0a4b6ca0$@classiccmp.org> References: <00ce01d00814$58c3cee0$0a4b6ca0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Jay West wrote: > Is there anyone that is *very* well versed in mailman "under the hood" I've grovelled around in the Mailman sources a few times in the past, but not nearly enough to be "*very* well versed". I've done things like change what things send notifications to the list owner, because that wasn't sufficiently configurable in the admin interface. (That might have improved since I worked on it.) I definitely think that the "two views joined at the hip" is well beyond my present expertise. Best regards, Eric From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 14:17:39 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 13:17:39 -0700 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 3:10 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > So what I was thinking is that it should, in principle, be possible > for Japan to introduce 230V in new areas (and new areas are built > constantly), That seems sensible. > with European plugs not only to make it safer but also to > clearly make the distinction. Personally I prefer the British Type G (BS 1363) sockets and plugs, but I'm told that a lot of people dislike them. On the other hand, distributing three-phase to residences, while great for people with shop equipment or old computers, seems like expensive overkill for normal homes. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 14:18:26 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 13:18:26 -0700 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 8:46 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > The KL10B had an immense 3-phase transformer, star rectifier and capacitor > bank, About 3.9F worth of capacitors, which was a heck of a lot back in the mid 1970s. > which produced about 12 V DC. This was fed to a massive linear > regulator on a huge round heat sink. Actually to 13 massive linear regulators on multiple large heat sinks. > Compuserve ran a LOT of KL10B's, and designed > their own switching power supplies to save power and air conditioning costs. They > never got DEC to pick up on that, so had to retrofit all the machines as they came > in. When the KL10 was designed, DEC was already using switching power supplies in some machines (e.g., PDP-11/40, /45, /55, /70). However, the load regulation, ripple, and noise specs weren't great, and ECL is sensitive to the ripple and noise. By the time Compuserve designed their replacement, switching power supply technology had improved somewhat. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 14:25:40 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 15:25:40 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > However, > the load regulation, ripple, and noise specs weren't great, and ECL is > sensitive to the ripple and noise. On the other hand, ECL does not suffer from the spikes, burps and farts TTL tends to make. Late model Cybers tend to have very little in the way of filtering, simply because the ECL load is "nice". -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 25 14:49:11 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 12:49:11 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> On 11/25/2014 12:17 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On the other hand, distributing three-phase to residences, while great > for people with shop equipment or old computers, seems like expensive > overkill for normal homes. And expensive. Copper isn't cheap and a 3-phase distribution transformer costs considerably more than a single-phase one--and provides very little advantage. I'll submit that if your goal is phase-to-phase balancing, distributing single-phase to individual residences and then shifting the residences to one phase or the other is probably better in that respect. In Germany, ordinary wall receptacles are single-phase, so depending on the homeowner to phase-balance his load is probably not the best policy. On the other hand, doing the same for multi-residence (i.e. apartment blocks) does make sense. The homes on my loop (each has its own single-phase stepdown transformer, but the loop itself is fed by 3-phase HV) are, every few years, rebalanced. Each residence has a large green distribution box where the property line meets the street. All three HV lines come into each box--re-balancing is just a matter of of swapping connections in the box. Takes but a few minutes. This may not be typical for the US, but my utility is a rural electric co-op, so there's less emphasis on profits and more on member benefits. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 25 14:56:34 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 20:56:34 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54728DFB.7070002@dunnington.plus.com> , Message-ID: > "Getting thrown off" is pretty much where a most injuries occur. > Common injuries are falling off ladders, dropping or jabbing a held > tool, or slamming a limb into something sharp in reaction to the > shock. Or, in some case, throwing a tool or fist and hitting someone > else. IMHO this is also the main hazard from the stored charge in CRTs. Although the voltage is high, there is not enough charge/energy to kill you (if you have a heart problem, that's another matter, of course). But the shock from said charge is enough to make you jerk, and maybe either break the glass of the CRT (by hitting it with the tool you are holding, say) or drop the CRT. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 25 14:58:24 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 12:58:24 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5474ED70.6030202@sydex.com> On 11/25/2014 12:25 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> However, >> the load regulation, ripple, and noise specs weren't great, and ECL is >> sensitive to the ripple and noise. > > On the other hand, ECL does not suffer from the spikes, burps and > farts TTL tends to make. > > Late model Cybers tend to have very little in the way of filtering, > simply because the ECL load is "nice". 400Hz 3-phase power also helps. That gives a ripple frequency of 2400Hz in a fullwave "star" configuration, with only 13% ripple, no? The same holds for early model Cybers (even before they were called "Cyber") which used a different variety of logic. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 15:02:28 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 16:02:28 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <5474ED70.6030202@sydex.com> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> <5474ED70.6030202@sydex.com> Message-ID: > 400Hz 3-phase power also helps. That gives a ripple frequency of 2400Hz in > a fullwave "star" configuration, with only 13% ripple, no? The same holds > for early model Cybers (even before they were called "Cyber") which used a > different variety of logic. Well, yes, of course. Which leads to the question why DEC did not go that route. I guess the KL10 power supply people were drunk (again). -- Will From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 15:17:57 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 14:17:57 -0700 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> <5474ED70.6030202@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 2:02 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Well, yes, of course. Which leads to the question why DEC did not go > that route. I guess the KL10 power supply people were drunk (again). Last year I went to lunch with a friend, and he introduced me to one of his friends, who had worked for DEC for a long time. We got to talking about various DEC machines, and I mentioned that I was surprised about an aspect of the KL10 design. To my astonishment, he replied, "The reason I made that decision was..." He probably wasn't involved in the ECL power supply design, but next time I see him I'll ask. I have heard from multiple sources that DEC made it a point never to design machines that actually needed a "machine room". Even the KL10-based systems and the VAX 9000 were intended to be usable in an ordinary office, though that was rarely done in practice. Perhaps the use of 400 Hz power was considered to make that significantly less practical. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 25 15:29:06 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 16:29:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Message-ID: <20141125212906.B5BEF18C0FF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > I was surprised about an aspect of the KL10 design. To my astonishment, > he replied, "The reason I made that decision was..." Any chance you could document (for history) what the aspect was, and why he did it the way he did? Actually, there is this thing called the 'IEEE Annals of the History of Computing' journal, and they have a special category called 'Anecdotes', where people tell the history of things they were involved in. They don't go through the whole peer review process, so there's a lot less hassle to writing something for that. I just did one on token rings at MIT. It's a good way to capture all this stuff that is of historical interest, but not otherwise documented. Maybe he could be convinved to do one on 'The Design of the KL-10'? Noel From earl at baugh.org Tue Nov 25 15:43:18 2014 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 16:43:18 -0500 Subject: Digest Size? Message-ID: I get CC talk in a digest form and just recently the size per digest is crossing the boundary where GMail will "chop" the end of the digest. This seems to be a recent occurrence...so wondering, is this something Jay would need to change, or is this something I can change? I didn't see where I could change it (maybe I'm just missing the setting...or misinterpreting something...) Earl From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 16:05:54 2014 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 17:05:54 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Message-ID: > > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) > Subject: Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? > > > From: Michael Thompson > > > just for the KS10 > > You have a KS-10? Way cool! What OS are you running on it? You should run > ITS > (the best PDP-10 OS _ever_, all sort of cool features), it was modified to > run on a KS-10, and there are emulated KS-10's running it still. > > Noel > The KS10 is on long term loan from the Rhode Island Computer Museum. I borrowed it so I could get it and a RP06 working. It runs TOPS-10 and TOPS-20. I haven't tried ITS, but I have everything that it would take to get ITS running. There are actually quite a few real KS10s in collectors hands. -- Michael Thompson From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 16:55:05 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 15:55:05 -0700 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141125212906.B5BEF18C0FF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141125212906.B5BEF18C0FF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I wrote: > I was surprised about an aspect of the KL10 design. To my astonishment, > he replied, "The reason I made that decision was..." On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Any chance you could document (for history) what the aspect was, and why he > did it the way he did? It had something to do with the use of a PDP-11/40 as the console front-end processor (equivalent to a "service processor" in IBM terminology), but unfortunately I no longer remember the details of either my question or his answer. I seem to recall that neither the question nor answer were anything terribly significant. On the other hand, if anyone did have any good questions about the logic design of the KL10 CPU, I could ask him. > Maybe he could be convinved to do one on 'The Design of the KL-10'? I'll ask him. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 25 19:12:32 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 19:12:32 -0600 Subject: Digest Size? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002f01d00916$0ea4b470$2bee1d50$@classiccmp.org> That's funny... about two weeks ago, someone said "hey, the digest size is really small, can you increase it so the entire day fits in one digest?" -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Earl Baugh Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2014 3:43 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Digest Size? I get CC talk in a digest form and just recently the size per digest is crossing the boundary where GMail will "chop" the end of the digest. This seems to be a recent occurrence...so wondering, is this something Jay would need to change, or is this something I can change? I didn't see where I could change it (maybe I'm just missing the setting...or misinterpreting something...) Earl From shawn-gordon at cox.net Tue Nov 25 19:40:15 2014 From: shawn-gordon at cox.net (Shawn Gordon) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 17:40:15 -0800 Subject: Digest Size? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54752F7F.7030307@cox.net> i wish I could even get back on the digest, I followed the instructions and it didn't work, none of the commands to the listsreve worked other than the 'help' one, I'm getting a ton of emails and need to get back to digest. On 11/25/2014 5:12 PM, Jay West wrote: > That's funny... about two weeks ago, someone said "hey, the digest size is really small, can you increase it so the entire day fits in one digest?" > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Earl Baugh > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2014 3:43 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Digest Size? > > I get CC talk in a digest form and just recently the size per digest is crossing the boundary where GMail will "chop" the end of the digest. This seems to be a recent occurrence...so wondering, is this something Jay would > need to change, or is this something I can change? I didn't see where I > could change it (maybe I'm just missing the setting...or misinterpreting > something...) > > Earl > > > > From jcw1231 at pacbell.net Tue Nov 25 20:05:22 2014 From: jcw1231 at pacbell.net (JC White) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 18:05:22 -0800 Subject: Digest Size? In-Reply-To: <54752F7F.7030307@cox.net> References: <54752F7F.7030307@cox.net> Message-ID: <1416967522.83878.YahooMailNeo@web181603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Same here, Shawn... tried the commands but no joy... ________________________________ From: Shawn Gordon To: General at classiccmp.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2014 5:40 PM Subject: Re: Digest Size? i wish I could even get back on the digest, I followed the instructions and it didn't work, none of the commands to the listsreve worked other than the 'help' one, I'm getting a ton of emails and need to get back to digest. On 11/25/2014 5:12 PM, Jay West wrote: > That's funny... about two weeks ago, someone said "hey, the digest size is really small, can you increase it so the entire day fits in one digest?" > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Earl Baugh > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2014 3:43 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Digest Size? > > I get CC talk in a digest form and just recently the size per digest is crossing the boundary where GMail will "chop" the end of the digest. This seems to be a recent occurrence...so wondering, is this something Jay would > need to change, or is this something I can change? I didn't see where I > could change it (maybe I'm just missing the setting...or misinterpreting > something...) > > Earl > > > > From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Tue Nov 25 20:14:38 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 20:14:38 -0600 Subject: Digest Size? In-Reply-To: <1416967522.83878.YahooMailNeo@web181603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <54752F7F.7030307@cox.net> <1416967522.83878.YahooMailNeo@web181603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20141126021438.GA8432@RawFedDogs.net> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 06:05:22PM -0800, JC White wrote: > Same here, Shawn... tried the commands but no joy... On the bright side y'all aren't breaking threads when y'all reply like those on digest do. :-) -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 25 20:42:40 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 20:42:40 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <54753E20.1060802@pico-systems.com> On 11/25/2014 02:18 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 8:46 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> The KL10B had an immense 3-phase transformer, star rectifier and capacitor >> bank, > About 3.9F worth of capacitors, which was a heck of a lot back in the mid 1970s. > >> which produced about 12 V DC. This was fed to a massive linear >> regulator on a huge round heat sink. > Actually to 13 massive linear regulators on multiple large heat sinks. There may have been several versions. The KL10B in a Decsystem 2020 we had had one big regulator that was a ring of "christmas tree" segments with a fan about 10" in diameter. This was all 30 years ago, so my memory may have faded just a little, but I'm pretty sure that was how it was done. Quite insane. DEC started using switching regulators in all large DC supplies in the late 60's, and if ever there was a machine that cried out for a switching regulator it sure was the KL10! So, the decision to use a linear regulator with a huge voltage drop must have been some misguided belief that ECL was too noise sensitive for a switching regulator. I have built smaller systems with ECL, and found it to be quite noise-tolerant. >> Compuserve ran a LOT of KL10B's, and designed >> their own switching power supplies to save power and air conditioning costs. They >> never got DEC to pick up on that, so had to retrofit all the machines as they came >> in. > When the KL10 was designed, DEC was already using switching power > supplies in some machines (e.g., PDP-11/40, /45, /55, /70). However, > the load regulation, ripple, and noise specs weren't great, and ECL is > sensitive to the ripple and noise. By the time Compuserve designed > their replacement, switching power supply technology had improved > somewhat. > Well, the KL10 was not an early CPU design. There are ways to make good switching supplies, DEC should have done the engineering. I'm sure even **I** could have built a workable switching supply. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 25 20:49:38 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 20:49:38 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> <5474ED70.6030202@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54753FC2.8080207@pico-systems.com> On 11/25/2014 03:02 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> 400Hz 3-phase power also helps. That gives a ripple frequency of 2400Hz in >> a fullwave "star" configuration, with only 13% ripple, no? The same holds >> for early model Cybers (even before they were called "Cyber") which used a >> different variety of logic. > Well, yes, of course. Which leads to the question why DEC did not go > that route. I guess the KL10 power supply people were drunk (again). > > IBM 360's used 2500 Hz single-phase power produced internally by a converter-inverter unit. it made the individual power supply modules QUITE small. The problem is they had totally minimal energy storage in the DC link of the converter-inverter unit, so the machines were extremely sensitive to the slightest power bobble on the incoming 208 V 3-phase 60 Hz power. The SLIGHTEST flicker seen on a fluorescent light meant the 360 crashed. The 370's went to 415 Hz provided by an internally-mounted motor-generator set, this made the machines able to ride through significant power dropouts. At least, the KL10B power supply DID work reliably. Our university didn't care about the power waste, but obviously it was a big problem for Compuserve. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 25 20:58:03 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 20:58:03 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> <5474ED70.6030202@sydex.com> Message-ID: <547541BB.10604@pico-systems.com> On 11/25/2014 03:17 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 2:02 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Well, yes, of course. Which leads to the question why DEC did not go >> that route. I guess the KL10 power supply people were drunk (again). > Last year I went to lunch with a friend, and he introduced me to one of his > friends, who had worked for DEC for a long time. We got to talking about > various DEC machines, and I mentioned that I was surprised about an > aspect of the KL10 design. To my astonishment, he replied, "The reason > I made that decision was..." > > He probably wasn't involved in the ECL power supply design, but next time > I see him I'll ask. I'd love to know the story, if he does know it! > > I have heard from multiple sources that DEC made it a point never to design > machines that actually needed a "machine room". Even the KL10-based > systems and the VAX 9000 were intended to be usable in an ordinary office, > though that was rarely done in practice. Perhaps the use of 400 Hz power was > considered to make that significantly less practical. > Well, many machines by many makers didn't actually NEED a "machine room". On the other hand, the power dissipation and fan noise of the KL10B was QUITE considerable! And, the noise and massive jets of air from the back of a VAX 11/780 were also not quite consistent with an office environment. I know (the hard way) that a VAX will run in 90 degree F air for a very long time. I think we got our up to 130 F once when the AC crapped out on a weekend. The VAX was in the home of the former KL10B with a trouble-prone Liebert cooler. We had a thermostat wired into the emergency power off button on the wall and set it to dump the power at 90 F. Often we'd run in, notice the AC was down, shove the thermostat as high as it would go and try to restart the AC system, and then do an orderly shutdown if the AC couldn't be brought back online. This machine room was kept quite clean by the AC, which was good for the disk drives. Oh, many of the larger machines, such as KL10's and early/big VAXen needed the raised flooring for the cables, which would become a HUGE mess without. The VAX 780 was nice as all the "main box" cabling was internal, but if you had massbus drives, you ended up with big snakes running all over. Jon From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Nov 26 01:06:33 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 08:06:33 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/25/2014 12:17 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > >On the other hand, distributing three-phase to residences, while great > >for people with shop equipment or old computers, seems like expensive > >overkill for normal homes. > > And expensive. Copper isn't cheap and a 3-phase distribution > transformer costs considerably more than a single-phase one--and > provides very little advantage. Maybe that's the case where you live, but nor here b'cause of production volumes. Where is the advantage of two thicker wires fingle phase against four smaller ones? If you are happy with that was NA suppliers give to you congatulations, but all others that know better must not be happy with that. > > I'll submit that if your goal is phase-to-phase balancing, distributing > single-phase to individual residences and then shifting the residences > to one phase or the other is probably better in that respect. In > Germany, ordinary wall receptacles are single-phase, so depending on the > homeowner to phase-balance his load is probably not the best policy. On > the other hand, doing the same for multi-residence (i.e. apartment > blocks) does make sense. As I wrote before: Do you really think over there that all people in Countries that aren't part of the US are some sort of Idiots? I'm a German, are German Engeneeers stupid too? > > The homes on my loop (each has its own single-phase stepdown > transformer, but the loop itself is fed by 3-phase HV) are, every few > years, rebalanced. Each residence has a large green distribution box > where the property line meets the street. All three HV lines come into > each box--re-balancing is just a matter of of swapping connections in > the box. Takes but a few minutes. Nobody needs this... All Power companies are doing the same here so nothing is "expensive", it is the standard. And don#t tell me that the NA Power distribution with small voltage single phase is economical in sight of the usage of copper... > > This may not be typical for the US, but my utility is a rural electric > co-op, so there's less emphasis on profits and more on member benefits. > > --Chuck > > Chuck you don't know better, so it is ok for you. That's all. BTW: since someone talked about step donw trannies for power tools.. that's unkown here and not needed, with some exeptions: There are step down isolated transformers with < 42V for special sensitive environments. That is called "Schutzkleinspannung" or protective small voltage. That is used where people can get in touch with the conductors or in wet envirnonments...seldom used. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From billdeg at buzz1.com Tue Nov 25 17:45:12 2014 From: billdeg at buzz1.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 18:45:12 -0500 Subject: Anyone Near Los Gatos, CAL? $$ for Serial Printer Repair Message-ID: <000901d00909$db69bd00$923d3700$@buzz1.com> $$ Printer Repair in Los Gatos, CA $$ Anyone in Los Gatos CA area looking for an emergency repair job? I was contacted by a travel agency who needs their Texas Instruments RO 810 printer repaired. The problem is that the printer does not respond to prints sent to it, although the lights are all normal indicating READY. They're using the Apollo system but I don't know what kind of computer or terminal they have hooked up to the printer. The RO 810 is just a receive only serial printer, essentially a one way serial terminal, probably 300-1200 baud. Here is a photo of the same printer I own. I have the manuals, etc. Probably they're also on the web http://vintagecomputer.net/cromemco/system_three/ti_omni_800_810_RO_Terminal .jpg Anyone want to take a stab at it? I can help remotely but I live 3000 miles away. Agency has a backup printer that might work, need someone on site to set up and or swap parts. IF YOU CAN GO TO CUSTOMER SITE (ideally 11/26 or Monday after Thanksgiving), please contact me via vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm. I will pay whomever helps me as a subcontractor and will assist you by phone as needed. Because I have same printer I can help run compare/contrast testing. Note that printer ribbons for the TI RO 810 and Decwriter II are interchangeable. Bill Vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm From scaron at umich.edu Tue Nov 25 17:47:53 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 18:47:53 -0500 Subject: Anyone Near Los Gatos, CAL? $$ for Serial Printer Repair In-Reply-To: <000901d00909$db69bd00$923d3700$@buzz1.com> References: <000901d00909$db69bd00$923d3700$@buzz1.com> Message-ID: Wow, I'm really surprised to see one of those old TI printers still chugging away in the wild. I haven't seen one of those in years! Best, Sean On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > $$ Printer Repair in Los Gatos, CA $$ > Anyone in Los Gatos CA area looking for an emergency repair job? I was > contacted by a travel agency who needs their Texas Instruments RO 810 > printer repaired. The problem is that the printer does not respond to > prints > sent to it, although the lights are all normal indicating READY. They're > using the Apollo system but I don't know what kind of computer or terminal > they have hooked up to the printer. The RO 810 is just a receive only > serial printer, essentially a one way serial terminal, probably 300-1200 > baud. > > Here is a photo of the same printer I own. I have the manuals, etc. > Probably they're also on the web > > http://vintagecomputer.net/cromemco/system_three/ti_omni_800_810_RO_Terminal > .jpg > > Anyone want to take a stab at it? I can help remotely but I live 3000 miles > away. Agency has a backup printer that might work, need someone on site to > set up and or swap parts. IF YOU CAN GO TO CUSTOMER SITE (ideally 11/26 or > Monday after Thanksgiving), please contact me via > vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm. I will pay whomever helps me as a > subcontractor and will assist you by phone as needed. Because I have same > printer I can help run compare/contrast testing. Note that printer ribbons > for the TI RO 810 and Decwriter II are interchangeable. > > Bill > Vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm > > > From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 01:47:05 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 00:47:05 -0700 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <54753E20.1060802@pico-systems.com> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> <54753E20.1060802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:42 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/25/2014 02:18 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Actually to 13 massive linear regulators on multiple large heat sinks. > There may have been several versions. The KL10B in a Decsystem 2020 we had A DECSYSTEM-2020 uses a KS10, which has no ECL, and uses a big switching power supply made by third parties. The KL10B was used in the DECsystem-1090, but not in any DECSYSTEM-20 models. The KL10BC was used in the DECsystem-1090T, which was ran TOPS-20 but was not marked as a DECSYSTEM-20. The other DECSYSTEM-20 models (2040, 2050, 2060, 2065) all use the KL10-C, KL10-E, or KL10-E/R processors. > had one big regulator that was a ring of "christmas tree" segments with a fan > about 10" in diameter. They wouldn't have used one big regulator because the remote sensing wouldn't have been able to get a sufficiently uniform voltage on all backplane segments, and that definitely *will* cause problems for ECL. Also it has to be at least two regulators because the backplanes need regulated -5.2V and -2.0V. And one big regulator for 315A of -5.2V wouldn't have significantly less expensive then nine 35A regulators, because it would have needed just as many pass transistors and just as much heat sinking. According to the maintenance docs, even the earliest production KL10s used The H761 Regulator Assembly which had five heat sink subassemblies for the pass transistors for nine -5.2V 35A regulators, with room for a tenth, and four -2.0V 35A regulators. Each heat sink assembly was a rectangular affair with a squarish profile with a blower at one end, and is designed for pass transistors for up to four regulators. HSA1 and HSA2 each have the pass transistors for two -2.0V regulators, HA3 and HA4 for four -5.2V regulators each, and HSA5 for two -5.2V regulators, one of which was not used in any normal KL10 configuration. All five HSAs and the control circuitry are attached to a single rack mounting panel, which normally has a cover in place. The HSA mounts are hinged for service access. See for example assembly drawing E-UA-H761-0-0 for the complete assembly, dated November 1974, and E-AD-7009404-0-0 and E-AD-7009405-0-0 assembly drawings for the individual HSAs. These are in the FMPS for the KL10A: http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/dec/pdp10/KL10/MP-KL10-A1_KL10_vol1_Sep75.pdf I don't see a print set for the KL10B online, but I'm confident that the H761 Regulator Assembly was the same. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 01:51:48 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 00:51:48 -0700 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <54753FC2.8080207@pico-systems.com> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> <5474ED70.6030202@sydex.com> <54753FC2.8080207@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:49 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > At least, the KL10B power supply DID work reliably. Our university didn't > care about the power waste, but obviously it was a big problem for > Compuserve. The KL10 power supply could ride through at least two dropped AC line cycles, thanks to the 3.9F capacitor box. The nominal DC voltage was about 11.2V IIRC, and the regulators needed about 2V of headroom, so the machine could operate until the capacitors sagged by about 4V. Of course, the linear power supplies effectively became more efficient as the capacitors sagged. From jws at jwsss.com Wed Nov 26 02:05:29 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 00:05:29 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <547541BB.10604@pico-systems.com> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> <5474ED70.6030202@sydex.com> <547541BB.10604@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <547589C9.4070004@jwsss.com> On 11/25/2014 6:58 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Well, many machines by many makers didn't actually NEED a "machine > room". On the other hand, > the power dissipation and fan noise of the KL10B was QUITE considerable! A company I consulted for bought a technology for full automation and remote management of data centers, which was developed in Japan. they wanted to reduce power, and took a pretty radical approach. The system we got had full weather sensing for rain, heat, humidity wind, etc., and would actually shut down machine room AC as possible and open the room to outdoor circulation. Also integrated access control and intrusion alarms. They also had a very nice remote serial console package and a lot of patents, and that was why the precursor company we had bought the rights in the US. I think the environmental stuff was split off to another company, but we had the remote console control. We could see the serial from any server, and do some resets, etc., to control any server. But they saved quite a lot by studying where to put these centers where they could use a lot less power. The product is still available if anyone is interested, and is handy to use for my systems. oh, unfortunately it won't be free, sorry. thanks jim From kspt.tor at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 02:49:50 2014 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 09:49:50 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Message-ID: On 25 November 2014 at 21:17, Eric Smith wrote: > On the other hand, distributing three-phase to residences, while great > for people with shop equipment or old computers, seems like expensive > overkill for normal homes. I don't know the reasoning for Germany, but in my town in Norway it was apparently used in order to reduce costs, actually. Traditionally 3-phase in Norway has been distributed with 3, not 4 wires: If balanced, earth return current is zero. Some years ago the Norwegian system was unified with what's standard in most of EU, I'm not sure if things changed then (but at least in the past there was no 'neutral' and 'live' in a home - both wires were equal in that respect, and the voltage to earth was never 220V (as we used back then, now it's 230V), it could vary but was in practice never more than 160V, normally just 120V. Less of a jolt than if you touched both wires. Wire to earth accidents is a much more common affair than wire-to-wire accidents). Anyway, I'm not an expert on this so as I said I'm not certain if the policy of using only 3 wires has changed - but at least with that system, distributing 3-phase means that you could transport 200% more effect with only one additional wire. Even with four wires it pays off. And that's why it was done AFAIK. [In addition it seems that feeding 3-phase all the way to the consumer is nearly 'free' with TN, see below] (Reading up on this a bit - apparently the traditional Norwegian power distribution system was called 'IT', Isolated Terra, while new and refurbished areas are now using TN, Terra Neutral (400V), the system which is now common in Europe. What impact this has for the jolt when you touch the wire I'm not sure about [update: Ouch, you'll get 230V to earth], but apparently TN is what makes it feasible to distribute 3-phase to every house. With the older IT system the (then) 3-phase 380V system had to be installed separately. With TN you get both 230V and 400V directly available for the consumer. But I think you'll need 4 wires in practice. It still pays off, economically.] Now I slowly retract my steps back to the more familiar lower-voltage DC land where I feel on more solid ground.. :-) -Tor From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 26 03:27:13 2014 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 10:27:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Nov 2014, Eric Smith wrote: > Personally I prefer the British Type G (BS 1363) sockets > and plugs, but I'm told that a lot of people dislike them. Sure, you have a cute little device with a cute little eurocord, and at its end: a monster boat anchor bigger than the device itself ;-) > On the other hand, distributing three-phase to residences, while great > for people with shop equipment or old computers, seems like expensive > overkill for normal homes. Not at all! Ever heard of equally distributing the load over all phases? Your electricity company will be grateful (as much as using PFCs). Ever run a kitchen stove on single phase 16A (with all plates and the oven on)? That's not fun. And why would it be overkill if all the existing infrastructure already is three-phase? For comparison: in Germany, your residence is usually attached three-phase with each 63A fused. Those phases are more or less equally distributed over the rooms (with 16A circuit breakers) (plus three-phase devices like the stove). Christian From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Nov 26 03:22:02 2014 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 10:22:02 +0100 Subject: Alpha and VAX Available in Sweden In-Reply-To: <20141125092139.GA10613@Update.UU.SE> References: <20141125092139.GA10613@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <54759BBA.9070504@update.uu.se> Hi The VAX-11/750 has most likely found a new owner in germany, thus the Alphaserver 8200 can stay. BUT, since I need space, IFF someone wants to come collect the 11/750 AND both the 2100 and the 4000, I'm giving you a last chance to claim it. Unless I've heard something tomorrow the VAX goes to germany :) /P On 11/25/2014 10:21 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi all > > I need to free up some space for new interesting things comming in. So > after much thinking I'm letting these machines go: > > VAX 11/750 (Complete, some spares, needs love) > Alphaserver 1000 4/233 (Broken PSU) > Alphaserver 2100 5/300 (Deskside, one CPU) > Alphaserver 8200 5/300 (fullsize rack: http://www.pdp8.se/bild/sthlm_haul/as8200.jpg) > DEC 4000 AXP (http://www.pdp8.se/bild/sthlm_haul/axps_small.jpg) > > One caveat: I don't need all that space, so if the 11/750 goes the > AS8200 can stay. > > The things are free if you pick them up. But I'm flexible when it comes > to shipping but make me an offer that makes it worth it to me. Trades > for smaller things or things with blinkenlights are welcome. > > I'm also selling Two MicroVAX 3500 in BA213 with two DSSI disk cabinets > (R215F). > > Timeframe: I'd really like the things gone before March next year but > I'm flexible here also. > > /P From axelsson at acc.umu.se Wed Nov 26 05:55:27 2014 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?UTF-8?B?R8O2cmFuIEF4ZWxzc29u?=) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:55:27 +0100 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> <20141123205539.71D312073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org> <547371E4.6060104@pico-systems.com> <20141125054919.092642073E9B@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5475BFAF.9060805@acc.umu.se> You got it right at the first time, the myth of 1+ g gold per ppro is kept alive by eBay sellers that sells to less informed buyers. PPros is closer to 1/3 of a gram Au per CPU (might vary up and down a bit depending on which CPU / cache combo. Most of the gold is in the bond wires and the solder holding the chips on place (a silicon-gold braze ). http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=15269&hilit=pentium+pro#p154921 I'm a gold refiner / scrapper / classic computer collector, all on a hobby basis, so my workshop is fast filling up with computers that I'm not allowed to refine. ... there's some mixed feelings there. :-D G?ran William Donzelli skrev den 2014-11-25 07:18: > Oops, I am a bit too tired, and something was bugging me about your > calculations. > > PPros have more than a third of a gram - they are closer to a gram per unit. > > > -- > Will > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 1:08 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Let's say that a Pentium Pro has a third of a gram; a troy ounce is >>> 31.1 grams; so 94 Pentium Pro to the troy ounce; 4.5 pounds is about >>> 65 troy ounces; so 6,182 Pentium Pro might have that much gold. >> There are 12 troy ounces to the pound, not 16. >> >> Anyway, yes, you are talking about something like 4800 PPros >> equivalent. Now compare the plated surface areas of a PPro compared to >> a number of the pins on the backplane - you will find that a gold >> plate area on a PPro (mind you, there is a fair amount under the >> cover, too) equates to a surprisingly small amount of old IBM >> backplane pins. Remember, the pins are long, and plated on four sides >> - and probably had a thicker plate that on PPros. >> >> And yes, the 75 was a really huge machine. Gold on the backplanes, >> gold on the connectors (early Bus&Tags have a very heavy plate), gold >> in transistors. I would not be surprised if there was gold in the lamp >> sockets. >> >> -- >> Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 08:39:04 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 09:39:04 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: <5475BFAF.9060805@acc.umu.se> References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> <20141123205539.71D312073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org> <547371E4.6060104@pico-systems.com> <20141125054919.092642073E9B@huey.classiccmp.org> <5475BFAF.9060805@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: > You got it right at the first time, the myth of 1+ g gold per ppro is kept > alive by eBay sellers that sells to less informed buyers. > > PPros is closer to 1/3 of a gram Au per CPU (might vary up and down a bit > depending on which CPU / cache combo. Most of the gold is in the bond wires > and the solder holding the chips on place (a silicon-gold braze ). > http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=15269&hilit=pentium+pro#p154921 Well, that is very interesting. Based on other sources, the numbers are all over the place, however. I will ask some people directly what they know. -- Will From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 26 08:49:15 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 09:49:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Clueless eBay buyers Message-ID: <20141126144915.B0E4818C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Check out: http://www.ebay.com/itm/251721536445 Douglas Electronics has them, brand new, for $60... Noel From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 09:06:24 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 10:06:24 -0500 Subject: mainframes and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <014201d004f9$4e79d740$eb6d85c0$@com> <546F1303.9060108@jwsss.com> <546FFDF5.3070900@pico-systems.com> <20141123205539.71D312073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org> <547371E4.6060104@pico-systems.com> <20141125054919.092642073E9B@huey.classiccmp.org> <5475BFAF.9060805@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: > Well, that is very interesting. Based on other sources, the numbers > are all over the place, however. I will ask some people directly what > they know. OK, on checking, I will backtrack to the original quote of a third of a gram, although it seems sometimes a chip can yield up to a half. But back to the comparison with the original model 75 - you are still dealing with upwards of a third of a million gold plated pins. -- Will From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Nov 26 09:24:16 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 15:24:16 +0000 Subject: Clueless eBay buyers In-Reply-To: <20141126144915.B0E4818C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141126144915.B0E4818C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20141126152416.GA285754@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 09:49:15AM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Check out: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/251721536445 > Douglas Electronics has them, brand new, for $60... OTOH, if I were to have bid on that auction, eBay have a scheme where they deal with the import duty and shipping to my home address for a fixed upfront cost. Whereas it's not at all obvious whether douglas.com even ships to non-businesses or the UK -- "Company Name" and "State" being required fields is not encouraging -- and in general shipping something costing more than about $20 from random US suppliers is risky and often outrageously expensive with further open-ended charged levied by the courier on delivery over and above what I already paid for shipping. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 26 09:30:51 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 10:30:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Clueless eBay buyers Message-ID: <20141126153051.9529518C0DC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Peter Corlett > it's not at all obvious whether douglas.com even ships to > non-businesses They do; they're happy to take a credit card. I have purchased items from both Douglas and this eBay seller, and although I can't speak to their international service, there wasn't much between them in terms of either cost or speed. Noel From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 26 11:07:15 2014 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 18:07:15 +0100 (CET) Subject: Clueless eBay buyers In-Reply-To: <20141126152416.GA285754@mooli.org.uk> References: <20141126144915.B0E4818C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141126152416.GA285754@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Peter Corlett wrote: > Whereas it's not at all obvious whether douglas.com even ships to > non-businesses or the UK -- "Company Name" and "State" being required > fields is not encouraging -- and in general shipping something costing > more than about $20 from random US suppliers is risky and often > outrageously expensive with further open-ended charged levied by the > courier on delivery over and above what I already paid for shipping. TTIP will bring us salvation... Christian From slandon110 at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 11:21:55 2014 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:21:55 -0500 Subject: Seeking the following items Message-ID: <54760C33.60803@gmail.com> Hey guys i know its a shot in the dark, But im looking for the following for my old high school machine. NEC MultiSync 3D monitor OmniKey AT Keyboard Logitech Mouseman 3 Button Mouse Thanks again From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 26 12:35:53 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:35:53 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> <54753E20.1060802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <54761D89.6090200@pico-systems.com> On 11/26/2014 01:47 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:42 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 11/25/2014 02:18 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> Actually to 13 massive linear regulators on multiple large heat sinks. >> There may have been several versions. The KL10B in a Decsystem 2020 we had > A DECSYSTEM-2020 uses a KS10, which has no ECL, and uses a big > switching power supply made by third parties. The KL10B was used in > the DECsystem-1090, but not in any DECSYSTEM-20 models. Not true! The CPU was, absolutely, a KL10B. It was in a big orange cabinet that was fairly similar in size and shape to a VAX 11/780. It had a PDP 11/40 (I think) in the next bay over as the I/O processor. I am not so clear about the exact "DECSystem" designation, but it VERY much was a DECSystem 20. During a major upgrade, the FE had the print set out, plus all the boards that were being replaced with upgraded boards. I got a VERY good look at the print set and the boards. Very typical MECL 10K logic, a million terminating and pull-down resistors all over the place. I was most interested in the clock alignment system. They had zig-zag traces with a piece of wire-wrap wire that were hand-soldered to tap onto the zig-zag at the right point to set the clock delay. The label on the front of the cabinet said "DECSystem-20" without specifically giving the model number. > The KL10BC > was used in the DECsystem-1090T, which was ran TOPS-20 but was not > marked as a DECSYSTEM-20. The other DECSYSTEM-20 models (2040, 2050, > 2060, 2065) all use the KL10-C, KL10-E, or KL10-E/R processors. > >> had one big regulator that was a ring of "christmas tree" segments with a fan >> about 10" in diameter. > They wouldn't have used one big regulator because the remote sensing > wouldn't have been able to get a sufficiently uniform voltage on all > backplane segments, and that definitely *will* cause problems for ECL. OK, the thing was all on one huge fan, but there were dozens of power transistors on individual heat sink segments, all arranged in a circle around the fan. So, yes, there were several regulators, electrically, but the main pass transistors were all mounted in a single unit. Yes, if you don't go the Seymour Cray route and run EVERY DAMN SIGNAL differential from one board to the next, then you do have to be careful that the power supplies are fairly well matched. > > I don't see a print set for the KL10B online, but I'm confident that > the H761 Regulator Assembly was the same. > No, I think there was an "early" version and a "late" version. The system was not greatly different, but they reduced the number of separate regulators and I think cut one whole regulator board out of the system that way. This late model might have been the KL10-BC you mention, although I'm PRETTY sure the print set did not carry that ending C, at least on the front page. And, maybe the system was a 2040. This is all from almost 25 years ago, and I was not a user on that machine, we took over the machine room after the 20xx was moved to another building. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 26 12:47:52 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 10:47:52 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> On 11/25/2014 11:06 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Chuck you don't know better, so it is ok for you. That's all. Holm, I do bristle a bit at that one. I've worked with industrial distribution as well as residential--there is a huge difference. In the industrial world, motors dominate the workload--even in a high-tech office building, HVAC accounts for a very large portion of the electrical load. In residential applications, the big consumption is from lighting and heating--although I wonder sometimes about the TV-crazy families. Cooking doesn't account for much in most households. I have an induction cooktop installed, which is vastly more efficient that electrical resistance heating--and more controllable. I asked my local utility if there was an energy credit available for that--the response was that cooking accounts for perhaps 2% of the average household energy budget, the choice of one over the other yields very little difference in the overall picture. So trotting out the cooker as the prime example of efficient 3-phase use isn't really relevant. To me, your argument is a matter of small degree. How many household appliances do you own that are multiphase? So we do the single-phase breakout before the final distribution transformer, Germany does it after. My vacuum cleaner isn't 3-phase and neither is yours. Why aren't you distributing 120 Hz (or any other frequency)--transformers would be smaller, you know. Both our transmission systems are 3-phase. As far as distribution voltages go, there's nothing to stop a homeowner from wiring all of his receptacles for 240V (it conforms to the National Electrical Code); the problem is that there would be little he could do with it, as most of our small appliances are constructed for 120V (or thereabouts). But he can purchase 240V light bulbs, if that is my choice--it will cost more, as that's not the dominant standard here. In fact, many, if not most small electronics here (TV, computers, etc.) use SMPSUs, so distribution voltage matters not a whit as far as they're concerned. To me, it seems that this is a Lilliput-versus-Blefuscu argument. --Chuck From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Nov 26 13:31:09 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 20:31:09 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141126193109.GA92258@beast.freibergnet.de> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/25/2014 11:06 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > >Chuck you don't know better, so it is ok for you. That's all. > > Holm, I do bristle a bit at that one. I've worked with industrial > distribution as well as residential--there is a huge difference. In the > industrial world, motors dominate the workload--even in a high-tech > office building, HVAC accounts for a very large portion of the > electrical load. In residential applications, the big consumption is > from lighting and heating--although I wonder sometimes about the > TV-crazy families. > > Cooking doesn't account for much in most households. I have an > induction cooktop installed, which is vastly more efficient that > electrical resistance heating--and more controllable. I asked my local > utility if there was an energy credit available for that--the response > was that cooking accounts for perhaps 2% of the average household energy > budget, the choice of one over the other yields very little difference > in the overall picture. So trotting out the cooker as the prime > example of efficient 3-phase use isn't really relevant. Hmm..see Christians Mailing. Ido have electrical Heaters here, in german called "Nachtspeicher?fen", that means they get heated up in the night at lower electricals costs (between 10pm and 6am) and buffer the head in some stones, over the day a fan is working from a thermostate and is heating the rooms. The oven in my living room has 4.2KW and another heater in the oven is additionally able to heat with 2.2KW (this one is able to heat over the day hours). There are 5 other such ovens in my appartement with smaller power figures (3KW It think). Almost impossible in the US. > > To me, your argument is a matter of small degree. How many household > appliances do you own that are multiphase? So we do the single-phase > breakout before the final distribution transformer, Germany does it after. > > My vacuum cleaner isn't 3-phase and neither is yours. You've not reading all my mails, don't you? I already wrote that I actually have a big industry grade vacuum cleaner with an 1.5 KW 3phase ansynchron motor and a zyklone. > Why aren't you > distributing 120 Hz (or any other frequency)--transformers would be > smaller, you know. Both our transmission systems are 3-phase. Oh, besides of my tube amps most devices I have have transformers for more then 20Khz... > > As far as distribution voltages go, there's nothing to stop a homeowner > from wiring all of his receptacles for 240V (it conforms to the National > Electrical Code); the problem is that there would be little he could do > with it, as most of our small appliances are constructed for 120V (or > thereabouts). But he can purchase 240V light bulbs, if that is my > choice--it will cost more, as that's not the dominant standard here. Again, I wrote the US schould have changed this long before now, then now it is simply to late A to change that w/o gigantic costs. That doesn't mean that I think that the US has a nice power distribution network, from my sight (and not only my sight) this is stone age and there is nothing that you could do to change that. :-) > > In fact, many, if not most small electronics here (TV, computers, etc.) > use SMPSUs, so distribution voltage matters not a whit as far as they're > concerned. That's the same here and no criteria that really matters. The power losses on conductor resistances are that what costs money.. > > To me, it seems that this is a Lilliput-versus-Blefuscu argument. > > --Chuck > Sorry, who the f.. is Blefuscu? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Nov 26 13:46:43 2014 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 11:46:43 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141126193109.GA92258@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <20141126193109.GA92258@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: > On Nov 26, 2014, at 11:31 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> >> To me, it seems that this is a Lilliput-versus-Blefuscu argument. >> >> --Chuck >> > > > Sorry, who the f.. is Blefuscu? > Part I of the story from Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift (1726). Two countries were at war (Lilliput & Blefuscu) over which end of the egg to open (big vs little). The Lilliputians were "little-endian" while the Blefuscians were "big-endian". And that my friends is the first instance of the difference between big-endian and little endian! The terms long pre-dated modern digital computers. TTFN - Guy From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 26 13:54:20 2014 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 19:54:20 -0000 Subject: List memberships and duplicates [was Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media!] References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <01PFCCE97XUW004LSY@beyondthepale.ie> <201411242114.QAA19897@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <009601d009b2$cda2eda0$a81d050a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mouse" To: Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 9:14 PM Subject: List memberships and duplicates [was Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media!] > >> You're probably signed up under two different email addresses; check > >> the address on your incoming mail and if they're different unsub one > >> of them. > > It looks like I'm getting one copy of each message with a cctech > > From: address and a second copy of each with a cctalk From: address. > > Me too. I tried unsubbing from cctech and was told I wasn't > subscribed. So I've just left it, figuring Jay has bigger fish to fry > for the moment - if it really bugged me I'd procmail the cctech copy to > /dev/null. If it's still going on whenever it seems to me it's worth > mentioning again (a month? two?), I may see if Jay has the spare cycles > then to deal with it. I'm not seeing the same thing. That may be the case on some occasions, but the emails that I received today that were duplicated *both* were addressed to cctech! So I don't think I can set up a rule to delete the duplicate :( > > I suspect, though, that this is one of the things that's behind the > recent requests for mailman expertise, and that not much will happen > until someone(tm) picks up that task. (I sure don't have that > expertise, or I'd've spoken up; my interactions with mailman have been > as a listmember, not as any kind of admin.) > Agreed. I'm surprised that there isn't (or doesn't yet appear to be) anyone with sufficient mailman experience to help solve the issues, considering the number of techy people on both lists. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 26 13:53:29 2014 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 19:53:29 -0000 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <01PFCCE97XUW004LSY@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <009501d009b2$ccd93500$a81d050a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Coghlan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 8:53 PM Subject: Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! > I thought others might be having the same problem but I guess not otherwise > there would be a chorus of "Me too!" by now (Wasn't that Me too! > at one time?) > > So nobody else is seeing this behaviour then? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. Me too! I haven't tried unsubbing from cctech yet though. I keep meaning to, but never get around to it. I just tried to see if I had a cctech account, but nope... no joy ;( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Nov 26 13:57:49 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 19:57:49 +0000 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0BB47@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jon Elson Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 10:36 AM > On 11/26/2014 01:47 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:42 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >>> On 11/25/2014 02:18 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>>> Actually to 13 massive linear regulators on multiple large heat sinks. >>> There may have been several versions. The KL10B in a Decsystem 2020 >>> we had >> A DECSYSTEM-2020 uses a KS10, which has no ECL, and uses a big >> switching power supply made by third parties. The KL10B was used in >> the DECsystem-1090, but not in any DECSYSTEM-20 models. > Not true! The CPU was, absolutely, a KL10B. It was in a big orange > cabinet that was fairly similar in size and shape to a VAX 11/780. It > had a PDP 11/40 (I think) in the next bay over as the I/O processor. > I am not so clear about the exact "DECSystem" designation, but it VERY > much was a DECSystem 20. [...] The label on the front of > the cabinet said "DECSystem-20" without specifically giving the model > number. Only the DECSYSTEM-2020 (with the KS10 processor) expanded on the "20" in the name. I believe that the KL10B processor was used in the so-called "Model A" DECSYSTEM-2040 and the DECsystem-1080. All the later systems, generically called "Model B" by the diagnostics and RSX-20F, were the various suffixes named by Eric, along with some he did not mention. We have a non-running 1090 here at the museum which is clearly and unambiguously labeled as a KL10D, as well as a KL10PV (blue 1095) and KL10PW (orange 2065) which run WAITS and Tops-10 7.04, respectively. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Nov 26 14:04:11 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 21:04:11 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <20141126193109.GA92258@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20141126200411.GA95408@beast.freibergnet.de> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > On Nov 26, 2014, at 11:31 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >> > >> To me, it seems that this is a Lilliput-versus-Blefuscu argument. > >> > >> --Chuck > >> > > > > > > Sorry, who the f.. is Blefuscu? > > > > Part I of the story from Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift (1726). > > Two countries were at war (Lilliput & Blefuscu) over which end of the egg to open (big vs little). The Lilliputians were "little-endian" while the Blefuscians were "big-endian". And that my friends is the first instance of the difference between big-endian and little endian! The terms long pre-dated modern digital computers. > > TTFN - Guy > Thanks, I never read that book.. only saw some children-comic-films about Gulliver's travels. Never realized that egg problem :-) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 14:06:49 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 13:06:49 -0700 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 2:27 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > Not at all! > Ever heard of equally distributing the load over all phases? Your > electricity company will be grateful (as much as using PFCs). Here in the US, with single-phase distributed to homes, we do have the loads balanced across the three phases. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 14:22:32 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 15:22:32 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4E2A6F6B7A0B47DE94BF04D668C0025F@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Holm Tiffe" Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:06 AM > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'll submit that if your goal is phase-to-phase balancing, distributing >> single-phase to individual residences and then shifting the residences >> to one phase or the other is probably better in that respect. In >> Germany, ordinary wall receptacles are single-phase, so depending on the >> homeowner to phase-balance his load is probably not the best policy. On >> the other hand, doing the same for multi-residence (i.e. apartment >> blocks) does make sense. > > As I wrote before: Do you really think over there that all people in > Countries that aren't part of the US are some sort of Idiots? > I'm a German, are German Engeneeers stupid too? ------------ Did Chuck really say that? *All* people?? Idiots??? Honi soit qui mal y pense... From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 14:28:13 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 13:28:13 -0700 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <54761D89.6090200@pico-systems.com> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> <54753E20.1060802@pico-systems.com> <54761D89.6090200@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/26/2014 01:47 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> >> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:42 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >>> >>> On 11/25/2014 02:18 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>>> >>>> Actually to 13 massive linear regulators on multiple large heat sinks. >>> >>> There may have been several versions. The KL10B in a Decsystem 2020 we >>> had >> >> A DECSYSTEM-2020 uses a KS10, which has no ECL, and uses a big >> switching power supply made by third parties. The KL10B was used in >> the DECsystem-1090, but not in any DECSYSTEM-20 models. > > Not true! The CPU was, absolutely, a KL10B. It was in a big orange cabinet > that was > fairly similar in size and shape to a VAX 11/780. It had a PDP 11/40 (I > think) in the > next bay over as the I/O processor. I am not so clear about the exact > "DECSystem" > designation, but it VERY much was a DECSystem 20. As I said, it's not a 2020, and if it's any other model of DEC 20, it's a KL10-C, KL10-E, or LK10-ER. You might be confusing the "Model B" designation (multiple section, vs. "Model A" which is single section) with the KL10 suffix, but they're not the same thing. A 2040 or 2050 can be either Model A or model B, but are the KL10-C, KL10-E, or KL10-E/R hardware models. The "Model A" means that the logic assembly inside the KL10 is a KL10-PA, while "Model B" may be KL10-PV or KL10-PW: Marketing software Full KL10 KL10 CPU Designation "model" P/N logic assy --------------------------- ------------ ------------ ------------- DECsystem-1080 Model A KL10-A KL10-PA DECsystem-1090 Model A KL10-B KL10-PA *or* Model B KL10-D KL10-PV DECsystem-1090T Model A KL10-BC KL10-PA DECsystem-1091 Model B KL10-E/R KL10-PV DECsystem-1095 Model B KL10-E/R KL10-PW DECSYSTEM-2040 Model A KL10-C KL10-PA *or* Model B KL10-E KL10-PV DECSYSTEM-2050 Model A KL10-C KL10-PA *or* Model B KL10-E/R KL10-PV DECSYSTEM-2060 Model B KL10-E/R KL10-PV DECSYSTEM-2065 Model B KL10-E/R KL10-PW The KL10-R was the FCC-compliant version of the KL10-E. > OK, the thing was all on one huge fan, but there were dozens of power > transistors on > individual heat sink segments, all arranged in a circle around the fan. So, > yes, > there were several regulators, electrically, but the main pass transistors > were all > mounted in a single unit. Totally contrary to every KL10 I've ever seen, and all the published maintenance documentation. There's an individual fan on each heat sink, and they are arranged in a rectangular fashion. I really don't believe that DEC built a special version just for you. > Yes, if you don't go the > Seymour Cray route and run EVERY DAMN SIGNAL differential from one board to > the > next, then you do have to be careful that the power supplies are fairly well > matched. It's not a matter of timing, though that was a concern too. If they used a single big regulator, the voltage to each part of the backplane would be different, and ECL has very low noise margins relative to the supply voltage, so it won't work reliably. They have separate regulators each with independent remote sense, and special provision for handling a failure of remote sensing to prevent the ECL from being damaged. >> I don't see a print set for the KL10B online, but I'm confident that >> the H761 Regulator Assembly was the same. > No, I think there was an "early" version and a "late" version. The system Both the KL10-A (earliest version) and the KL10-E/R (lastest version) used exactly the same H861 regulator assembly. > was not greatly different, but they reduced the number of separate regulators and I > think cut one whole regulator board out of the system that way. They never eliminated any ECL regulator board. All KL10s have nine 5.2V regulators and four 2.0V regulators. The only thing eliminated was the tenth 5.2V regulator, which was never used in any KL10 model. I've owned a KL10-B, which had been upgraded to a KL10-D, and a KL10-R. I'd take pictures of the regulator assemblies of both, but I'm about 1500 miles away from them. I also hung out with the field service guy for the Colorado School of Mines KL10-A in my misspent youth. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 26 14:30:59 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 15:30:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Message-ID: <20141126203059.85D3418C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Sotomayor > The terms long pre-dated modern digital computers. Actually, the document which, AFAIK, introduced the terms "big-endian" and "little-endian" to the world of computers was "On Holy Wars and a Plea For Peace", by Danny Cohen (April, 1980): http://www.ietf.org/rfc/ien/ien137.txt and it makes explicit reference to Swift. (There might have been a slightly earlier version of this note, but I'd have to go check my hardcopies - something called 'Oceanview Tales' may have included it.) Noel From phil at ultimate.com Wed Nov 26 14:36:48 2014 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 15:36:48 -0500 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0BB47@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0BB47@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201411262036.sAQKamrj045797@ultimate.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > We have a non-running 1090 here at the museum which is clearly and > unambiguously labeled as a KL10D, as well as a KL10PV (blue 1095) and > KL10PW (orange 2065) which run WAITS and Tops-10 7.04, respectively. Is the 1090 new? I didn't see it when I visited... I remember you pointing to the second KL and saying WAITS had booted, but stopped when it realized it didn't have all the hardware it expected. Has it been appeased? For the deeply curious, here is Joe & Eric Smith's (no relation) table of the PDP-10 models DEC shipped: https://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/pdp-10/models.html From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 14:42:26 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 13:42:26 -0700 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 12:06 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > As I wrote before: Do you really think over there that all people in > Countries that aren't part of the US are some sort of Idiots? I can't speak for Chuck, but to a first approximation I think *everyone* are "some sort of idiots", and those of us in the US more than most. I'm not singling anyone out, and there are obviously exceptions, but I'm a misanthrope. > I'm a German, are German Engeneeers stupid too? Probably a lot less than most people. :-) From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 14:55:12 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 13:55:12 -0700 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <201411262036.sAQKamrj045797@ultimate.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0BB47@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201411262036.sAQKamrj045797@ultimate.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 1:36 PM, Phil Budne wrote: > For the deeply curious, here is Joe & Eric Smith's (no relation) > table of the PDP-10 models DEC shipped: > > https://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/pdp-10/models.html Joe refers to the KL10-PW as a "Model C". That's a very logical thing to do, but unfortunately DEC always referred to it as "Model B", even though there are a few supervisor software-visible differences. From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Nov 26 15:02:37 2014 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 13:02:37 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141126200411.GA95408@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <20141126193109.GA92258@beast.freibergnet.de> <20141126200411.GA95408@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <94448026-F16C-4E72-A106-5959D8539E84@shiresoft.com> > On Nov 26, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> >>> On Nov 26, 2014, at 11:31 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>>> >>>> To me, it seems that this is a Lilliput-versus-Blefuscu argument. >>>> >>>> --Chuck >>>> >>> >>> >>> Sorry, who the f.. is Blefuscu? >>> >> >> Part I of the story from Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift (1726). >> >> Two countries were at war (Lilliput & Blefuscu) over which end of the egg to open (big vs little). The Lilliputians were "little-endian" while the Blefuscians were "big-endian". And that my friends is the first instance of the difference between big-endian and little endian! The terms long pre-dated modern digital computers. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> > > Thanks, I never read that book.. only saw some children-comic-films > about Gulliver's travels. Never realized that egg problem :-) > Most folks think of it as a children's story. It was (among other things) a satirical view of European governments at the time. TTFN - Guy From earl at baugh.org Wed Nov 26 15:09:42 2014 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 16:09:42 -0500 Subject: SMD replacement options? Message-ID: Howdy, In my restoration work on the Sun 1's I'm working with, I'd like to find a "modern" drive replacement (to allow me to boot the box, so I can cut down on the wear and tear on the original drive...it does still work, but like to not use it all the time). I've seen other adapters for various other protocols (i.e. SCSI and IDE) that allow for either SD card or CF cards to be used as drives. I'm wondering if such a beast exists for an SMD drive that would work with the xy controllers I have. I do have one or two SCSI controllers (but not enough for all of my multibus machines) so I have that partial answer. But I have a bunch of xy controllers that are were what were there originally... so I'd like to stay with that if I can... Thanks Earl the Squirrel From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 26 15:04:50 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 13:04:50 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141126193109.GA92258@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <20141126193109.GA92258@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <54764072.1010705@sydex.com> On 11/26/2014 11:31 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Ido have electrical Heaters here, in german called "Nachtspeicher?fen", > that means they get heated up in the night at lower electricals costs > (between 10pm and 6am) and buffer the head in some stones, over the day > a fan is working from a thermostate and is heating the rooms. > The oven in my living room has 4.2KW and another heater in the oven is > additionally able to heat with 2.2KW (this one is able to heat over the day > hours). Electrical resistive heating for household heading in the US is being discouraged. There are government incentives to convert to much more efficient heat pump technology--with the side benefit of air conditioning in the summer. I do have "emergency" resistive heating elements in my air handler--they're connected to two 40A/240V circuits. Gas is at least as popular in the US for heat and cooking. Oil for heating is also used. Coal has been obsolete for some years. I do supplement my heating with wood--but then, I'm located in a rural area where trees grow like fleas on a dog. > Almost impossible in the US. See above--such things are usually permanently connected. > You've not reading all my mails, don't you? > I already wrote that I actually have a big industry grade vacuum cleaner > with an 1.5 KW 3phase ansynchron motor and a zyklone. Yes, but that's atypical. You're not going to find that in the appliance department of your local Karstadt, are you? > Oh, besides of my tube amps most devices I have have transformers for more > then 20Khz... I fail to see the relevance to AC distribution. I also have audio transformers and tube gear. > Again, I wrote the US schould have changed this long before now, then now > it is simply to late A to change that w/o gigantic costs. > That doesn't mean that I think that the US has a nice power distribution > network, from my sight (and not only my sight) this is stone age and there > is nothing that you could do to change that. :-) Again, I fail to see your point. 240V 200A single-phase residential distribution gets the power were it's needed. My neighbor has 240V/400A single-phase because he has a larger house. 48 or 96KVA. Do you get more in your house? > Sorry, who the f.. is Blefuscu? Surely, you're familiar with the Jonathan Swift novel "Gullilver's Travels"? The book, not the children's cartoon series, is in reality a biting social satire. Lilliput and Blefuscu were two kingdoms at war over which end of an egg was best to open; i.e., fighting over nothing. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 26 16:13:33 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 14:13:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141126200411.GA95408@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <20141126193109.GA92258@beast.freibergnet.de> <20141126200411.GA95408@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20141126141029.Y66235@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Thanks, I never read that book.. only saw some children-comic-films > about Gulliver's travels. Never realized that egg problem :-) Read it! Although now consigned entirely to children's tales, it was actually biting social commentary. Some bits of it rival Douglas Adams. One trip made him larger than his surroundings, one trip made him small (although when he was picked up at sea afterwards, the sailors had not noticed anything unusual about the giant bird that had carried him away), one trip dealt with guvmint, one with academia, and finally the horse/human reversal. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 26 16:35:18 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 14:35:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141126203059.85D3418C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141126203059.85D3418C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20141126143417.Q66235@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Actually, the document which, AFAIK, introduced the terms "big-endian" and > "little-endian" to the world of computers was "On Holy Wars and a Plea For > Peace", by Danny Cohen (April, 1980): > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/ien/ien137.txt > and it makes explicit reference to Swift. > (There might have been a slightly earlier version of this note, but I'd have > to go check my hardcopies - something called 'Oceanview Tales' may have > included it.) Swift had a helluva lotta nerve to imply that byte order wasn't very important. From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Wed Nov 26 16:43:47 2014 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 16:43:47 -0600 Subject: Mac G4s available Message-ID: <001201d009ca$72057b30$56107190$@com> I have the follow Mac G4 systems available: 1) Power Mac G4 933 - SuperDrive, VGA/DVI display adaptor, NO RAM and NO HDD. Case has been modified with metal brackets for mounting. Link to specs: http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_933_qs.h tml 2) Power Mac G4 1.25 DP (MDD) - SuperDrive, DVU/Apple Display adaptor, NO RAM and NO HDD. Case has been modified with metal brackets for mounting (looks like racks slides on this one). Link to specs: http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_1.25_dp_ mdd.html 3) Power Mac G4 733 - SuperDrive, SCSI card, 1 gig RAM, NO Display adaptor and NO HDD. Standard case. Link to specs: http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_733.html If anyone is interested in these, contact me off list and we can discuss them. I may have some more to offer up soon, have to finish reviewing them. If I don't hear from anyone in a few days I'll send them to recycle as I need to clear them out. Thanks. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 17:05:54 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 17:05:54 -0600 Subject: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! In-Reply-To: <009501d009b2$ccd93500$a81d050a@user8459cef6fa> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <01PFCCE97XUW004LSY@beyondthepale.ie> <009501d009b2$ccd93500$a81d050a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: Update - A kind list member has offered to put together a few discs and send them my way, and also provided me with some DOS tools that I might be able to use to write some images - which I'd have to find, first. So it looks like I'm covered for now. Thanks much, everyone. On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 1:53 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter Coghlan" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 8:53 PM > Subject: Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media! > > > I thought others might be having the same problem but I guess not > otherwise > > there would be a chorus of "Me too!" by now (Wasn't that Me > too! > > at one time?) > > > > So nobody else is seeing this behaviour then? > > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan. > > > Me too! > > I haven't tried unsubbing from cctech yet though. I keep > meaning to, but never get around to it. I just tried to see > if I had a cctech account, but nope... no joy ;( > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Nov 26 17:27:24 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 23:27:24 +0000 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <201411262036.sAQKamrj045797@ultimate.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0BB47@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201411262036.sAQKamrj045797@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0BD1D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Phil Budne Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 12:37 PM > Rich Alderson wrote: >> We have a non-running 1090 here at the museum which is clearly and >> unambiguously labeled as a KL10D, as well as a KL10PV (blue 1095) and >> KL10PW (orange 2065) which run WAITS and Tops-10 7.04, respectively. > Is the 1090 new? I didn't see it when I visited... It is not in a display area. It is in the original computer room on the 3rd floor of the building, back when it was simply a personal project of Paul Allen. It was in fact the original system I was hired to work on, in 2003. > I remember you pointing to the second KL and saying WAITS had booted, > but stopped when it realized it didn't have all the hardware it > expected. Has it been appeased? I spent most of 2014 getting WAITS running. That involved research into the file system layout on RP07s, using FILDDT on Tops-10 under klh10 to scribble the expected bits in the correct places on disk images. This includes the HOM blocks, the correctly initialized Storage Allocation Table, the Master File Directory, an entry for 1,3.UFD in the MFD, and an entry for DART.DMP in ]1,3]. (.DMP is the extension for executables.) Once that was done, I began populating the file system by building images of DART tapes (the Disk Archive/Retrieval Tool, or summat like) on TOPS-20, writing them to real 9-track tape, then reading them under WAITS. It's been an interesting, enlightening year full of opportunities to learn Things I Did Not Know(TM). Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 26 17:13:11 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 15:13:11 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141126141029.Y66235@shell.lmi.net> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <20141126193109.GA92258@beast.freibergnet.de> <20141126200411.GA95408@beast.freibergnet.de> <20141126141029.Y66235@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <54765E87.8080900@sydex.com> On 11/26/2014 02:13 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Thanks, I never read that book.. only saw some children-comic-films >> about Gulliver's travels. Never realized that egg problem :-) > > Read it! I figure if I had to slog my way through with "Die Leiden des jungen Werthers". Holm can work through Gulliver--it's a bit more cheerful. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 26 17:26:54 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 15:26:54 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141126203059.85D3418C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141126203059.85D3418C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <547661BE.8010800@sydex.com> On 11/26/2014 12:30 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > (There might have been a slightly earlier version of this note, but I'd have > to go check my hardcopies - something called 'Oceanview Tales' may have > included it.) I'm surprised that Danny didn't address the issue of "which bit in a word is bit 0" (e.g. IBM S/360 vs. everyone else)? In fact, big-vs.-little endian debates completely ignore the matter of "bit-addressable" machines (they do/did exist). --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 26 18:43:21 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 19:43:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] Message-ID: <20141127004321.B693618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rich Alderson > We have a non-running 1090 here at the museum Oh, good, then you have a machine to run ITS on (along with ones for WAITS and Tops-10! :-) Just kidding (mostly); ITS did run on a KL (without hardware mods), but I'm not sure which model it was; it was a pretty early one. I know it had the external memory bus, and I _think_ it had the RH20s (I know it had RP's of some kind, I think MassBus, because one of them was dual-ported and the console 11 booted off of it, and I don't think it had whatever PDP-10 disk controller the KA's had). I guess it was a KL-B, then? Whichever one it was, anyone who wanted to run ITS on a KL would probably want the same model - I know ITS had custom microcode (in part to emulate the MIT pager, which had a different page size from the BBN/DEC one, and also because ITS used some custom instructions which had been added to the KA's), and although one could probably get that to run on a different model KL, it might be (an unknown amount of) work. But, completely seriously, ITS is an amazing system, and although there are a few running on simulators, I'm not sure anyone has it running on real hardware. That would be Very Cool. Noel From wilson at dbit.com Wed Nov 26 18:51:15 2014 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 19:51:15 -0500 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <20141127004321.B693618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141127004321.B693618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20141127005115.GA29638@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 07:43:21PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: >But, completely seriously, ITS is an amazing system, and although there are a >few running on simulators, I'm not sure anyone has it running on real >hardware. That would be Very Cool. I briefly had it running on a real KS10 back in 1993, and still have the RM80 from that system. It was a ton of fun! I'd love to get a KS going with that disk again some day. John Wilson Monson, MA From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Nov 26 19:17:52 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 01:17:52 +0000 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <20141127005115.GA29638@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20141127004321.B693618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141127005115.GA29638@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0C1C7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: John Wilson Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:51 PM > On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 07:43:21PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> But, completely seriously, ITS is an amazing system, and although there >> are a few running on simulators, I'm not sure anyone has it running on >> real hardware. That would be Very Cool. > I briefly had it running on a real KS10 back in 1993, and still have the > RM80 from that system. It was a ton of fun! I'd love to get a KS going > with that disk again some day. I briefly had it running on MIT-AI (the KS, not the KA) in 2009 on an RM03, but the CRAM died and we haven't had the cycles available to do something about that. It's on deck for next year. (Yes, MIT-AI. We purchased it from CZ, who rescued it from the AILab skip, then from the Symbolics skip, then eventually sold it on eBay when he had to. It still has the MIT de-acquisition sticker on the front panel. It's next to the Toad-1 in the computer room.) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Nov 26 19:27:45 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 01:27:45 +0000 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <20141127004321.B693618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141127004321.B693618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0C1F1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:43 PM >> From: Rich Alderson >> We have a non-running 1090 here at the museum > Oh, good, then you have a machine to run ITS on (along with ones for WAITS > and Tops-10! :-) Yes, we do, but not that one. "It's dim, Jed." > Just kidding (mostly); ITS did run on a KL (without hardware mods), but I'm > not sure which model it was; it was a pretty early one. ITS ran on exactly 1 KL, MIT-MC. It was a "Model A" system, probably a KL10B but I'd have to ask the owner. It's currently in storage in Sweden. > I know it had the external memory bus, and I _think_ it had the RH20s (I > know it had RP's of some kind, I think MassBus, because one of them was > dual-ported and the console 11 booted off of it, and I don't think it had > whatever PDP-10 disk controller the KA's had). I guess it was a KL-B, then? All KL10-based systems have RH20s. The front end 11/40 has an RH11, and one disk (at least) has to be dual-ported between the front end and the -10. > Whichever one it was, anyone who wanted to run ITS on a KL would probably want > the same model - I know ITS had custom microcode (in part to emulate the MIT > pager, which had a different page size from the BBN/DEC one, and also because > ITS used some custom instructions which had been added to the KA's), and > although one could probably get that to run on a different model KL, it might > be (an unknown amount of) work. Yeah, I've thought about how much work it would be. I'd prefer to start with the MC system if I were going to run ITS on a KL. > But, completely seriously, ITS is an amazing system, and although there are > a few running on simulators, I'm not sure anyone has it running on real > hardware. That would be Very Cool. I agree. As I noted in my response to John Wilson, I'm working on it. :-) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wilson at dbit.com Wed Nov 26 19:52:52 2014 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 20:52:52 -0500 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0C1C7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20141127004321.B693618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141127005115.GA29638@dbit.dbit.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0C1C7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20141127015252.GA30276@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 01:17:52AM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: >I briefly had it running on MIT-AI (the KS, not the KA) in 2009 on an RM03, >but the CRAM died and we haven't had the cycles available to do something >about that. It's on deck for next year. I heard (from Don Lewine) that the flakiness of the 93L415 SRAMs led to the KS's only patent. Even supposedly working CRAM boards get parity errors often enough that it's worth having the front end stop everything to reload the CRAM from disk, and maybe the system will live through it. >(Yes, MIT-AI. We purchased it from CZ, who rescued it from the AILab skip, > then from the Symbolics skip, then eventually sold it on eBay when he had > to. It still has the MIT de-acquisition sticker on the front panel. It's > next to the Toad-1 in the computer room.) Wicked cool! Guess that machine has 11' lives. John Wilson (JOHNW at AI) From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 26 19:57:15 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 19:57:15 -0600 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0BB47@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0BB47@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <547684FB.5040707@pico-systems.com> On 11/26/2014 01:57 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > I believe that the KL10B processor was used in the > so-called "Model A" DECSYSTEM-2040 and the DECsystem-1080. OK, thanks for clearing that up! So, it must have been a 2040, then, which now sounds right. I was just mis-remembering the 2020. Hmmm, possibly the big update I observed might have actually changed the model designation, too, from a 2040 up to a higher number. They replaced somewhere over half the boards in the system. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 26 20:01:20 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 20:01:20 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <4E2A6F6B7A0B47DE94BF04D668C0025F@310e2> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <4E2A6F6B7A0B47DE94BF04D668C0025F@310e2> Message-ID: <547685F0.9020803@pico-systems.com> On 11/26/2014 02:22 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Holm Tiffe" > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:06 AM > >> As I wrote before: Do you really think over there that >> all people in >> Countries that aren't part of the US are some sort of >> Idiots? >> I'm a German, are German Engeneeers stupid too? > We do have a special category in the US for "German (over)engineering". I first heard this when a friend of mine in high school worked over the summer for a Mercedes dealer. They were talking about automatic transmissions that had something like 45 valves in the shift logic, while US transmissions typically had 8 or fewer. I think the basic thrust has always been that the German engineers missed the part about doing the most with the minimum number of moving parts. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 26 20:05:28 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 20:05:28 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54737507.40001@pico-systems.com> <547394EB.6030208@update.uu.se> <5473FB86.9050006@pico-systems.com> <54753E20.1060802@pico-systems.com> <54761D89.6090200@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <547686E8.9080901@pico-systems.com> On 11/26/2014 02:28 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Totally contrary to every KL10 I've ever seen, and all the > published maintenance documentation. There's an individual > fan on each heat sink, and they are arranged in a > rectangular fashion. I really don't believe that DEC built > a special version just for you. Both the KL10-A (earliest > version) and the KL10-E/R (lastest version) used exactly > the same H861 regulator assembly. >> was not greatly different, but they reduced the number of separate regulators and I >> think cut one whole regulator board out of the system that way. > They never eliminated any ECL regulator board. All KL10s have nine > 5.2V regulators and four 2.0V regulators. The only thing eliminated > was the tenth 5.2V regulator, which was never used in any KL10 model. > > Well, that's what 35 years will do to your memory! I guess I'd better stick to 11/45, 11/780 and uVAX II, which I worked so much with that I won't get much wrong. Jon From phil at ultimate.com Wed Nov 26 20:21:08 2014 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 21:21:08 -0500 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0C1F1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20141127004321.B693618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0C1F1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201411270221.sAR2L823057018@ultimate.com> Rich wrote: > ITS ran on exactly 1 KL, MIT-MC. It was a "Model A" system, probably a KL10B > but I'd have to ask the owner. It's currently in storage in Sweden. .... > All KL10-based systems have RH20s. The front end 11/40 has an RH11, and one > disk (at least) has to be dual-ported between the front end and the -10. I think MIT-MC was a "1080" and only had RH10s. I think they used a DL10 for PDP11 interfacing (including chaosnet and some disks), and ran KLDCP (pre RSX20) on the console front end.... I don't remember ever having heard the ITS equivalent of "Tony in RH20 Land"... Ah... here is some of ITS SYSTEM;CONFIG 188: IFE MCOND MX,[ DEFOPT KL10P==1 ;MX IS WHAT WE CALL THE KL10 NOW DEFOPT MAXJ==120. ;MAX NUMBER OF JOBS ALLOWED DEFOPT SWBLK==1 ;1 => SWAP BLOCKING, 0 => PRIVILEGED USER DEFOPT SWPWSP==0 ;NO WORKING-SET SWAP SCHEDULER DEFOPT PAGPRE==1 ;PAGE-IN PREEMPTION DEFOPT SCHBLN==20. ;NUMBER OF RUNNABLE JOBS TO REMEMBER DEFOPT NQS==6 ;# OF DISK UNITS (3 RP04'S AND 3 T-300'S) DEFOPT NTUTBL==2 ;TUTS ARE TWO BLOCKS LONG DEFSYM NUDSL==500. ;# USER DIRECTORIES ON DISK DEFOPT NQCHN==50. ;NUMBER 2314 CHNLS I _think_ this means the number of open files... DEFOPT RH10P==1 ;HAS DEC RH10 DISK CONTROL (RP04) DEFOPT T300P==3 ;TRIDENT T-300S VIA PDP-11 START AT DRIVE 3 ISTR a disk farm labeled "Moon's Laundromat" ... DEFOPT DL10P==1 ;HAS DL10/DC76 TTY CONTROLLER ... DEFOPT DLCP==1 ;CHAOS NET GOES THROUGH DL10 .... DEFOPT NETYS==33. ;# KL-10 DTE20 TTYS NEWDTE==1 ;TEMPORARY CONDITIONAL TO ENABLE NEW DTE20 PROTOCOL I hadn't remembered *THAT*! ^^^^ DEFOPT NDLTYS==4. ;# TTYS ON DL10/DC76 ;Note: 3d TTY on DL10 is VT52 by console. It looks like: AIKA had a systems concepts DC10 MLKA and DM had RP10s (RP02/3) controllers From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 26 20:33:13 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 18:33:13 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <547685F0.9020803@pico-systems.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <4E2A6F6B7A0B47DE94BF04D668C0025F@310e2> <547685F0.9020803@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <54768D69.7010603@sydex.com> On 11/26/2014 06:01 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > I think the basic thrust has always been that the German engineers missed > the part about doing the most with the minimum number of moving parts. ...or nonmoving; e.g. Madman Muntz. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 20:55:10 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 19:55:10 -0700 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0C1F1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20141127004321.B693618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0C1F1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 6:27 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > All KL10-based systems have RH20s. The front end 11/40 has an RH11, and one > disk (at least) has to be dual-ported between the front end and the -10. All KL10s have RH20 internal channels except the KL10-A of the DECsystem-1080. The 1080 was intended as a drop-in replacement for a KA10 or KI10, so the system would already have external standalone RH10 channels. Similarly all KL10s have cache memory except the DECSYSTEM-2040. Cache modules could be added to the -2040 turning it into a -2050. From bpettitx at comcast.net Wed Nov 26 21:47:14 2014 From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 19:47:14 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Message-ID: Will wrote: "On the other hand, ECL does not suffer from the spikes, burps and farts TTL tends to make. Late model Cybers tend to have very little in the way of filtering, simply because the ECL load is "nice"." ECL, if done properly, uses a terminator on every signal line. On MECL it is usually it's 560 ohms to -5.2v or 220 ohms to -2.2 volts. Because most circuits have two ouputs, signal and not signal, termination gives you almost a steady load. This termination and balanced lines gave the Cybers very fast signal propagation with little noise like Will mentions. And it requres a lot less regulation and filtering requiremets for the power supplies. It was a joy to design with ECL, if you ignored the horrendous power required. We could weld with the Cyber power supplies! And if the freon cooling failed, you got some interesting smoke within seconds. Billy From bpettitx at comcast.net Wed Nov 26 22:01:50 2014 From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 20:01:50 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Message-ID: <8BB386CA88DF4B41BA052EC2AFA5DBFB@RosemarysPC> I can't speak to other areas, but where I live, in California, 3 phase is already brought in to most houses. But it is split at the power box. One phase to common is used for 120 volt single phase service. The other two phases to each other give 220 volt for major appliances. This shifts from house to house to balance out the loading. You can apply to have 3 phase service at the distribution point for heavier machine use. It doesn't involve any extra wiring but is a bitch to get permission. Zoning is very tight to prevent residences from being used for businesses. And also because most of the applications came people looking to set up a grow house. Though lately, most grow houses just steal the power by bypassing the meter. Billy From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 22:03:47 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 21:03:47 -0700 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > ECL, if done properly, uses a terminator on every signal line. On MECL it is usually it's 560 ohms to -5.2v or 220 ohms to -2.2 volts. Because most circuits have two ouputs, signal and not signal, termination gives you almost a steady load. That most ECL circuits have differential outputs is a common misconception. Look through a 10K or 100K databook. The vast majority of the parts have single-ended inputs and outputs. When a single-ended signal crosses a power supply domain, if the supplies aren't very close, bad things can happen. One approach to dealing with that would be to use only differential parts, but that rules out any of the MSI parts (counters, adders, most registers, etc.), so you end up using a lot more ICs. Another approach is to use single-ended on a module, but only differential between modules. To do it properly, the differential signals between modules need to be twisted pairs. The KL10 mostly uses single-ended signals between modules, with differential over twisted pairs used mostly for clocks. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 22:08:17 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 21:08:17 -0700 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <8BB386CA88DF4B41BA052EC2AFA5DBFB@RosemarysPC> References: <8BB386CA88DF4B41BA052EC2AFA5DBFB@RosemarysPC> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 9:01 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > I can't speak to other areas, but where I live, in California, 3 phase is already brought in to most houses. But it is split at the power box. One phase to common is used for 120 volt single phase service. The other two phases to each other give 220 volt for major appliances. This shifts from house to house to balance out the loading. Actually what you describe is single-phase, with split-phase wiring to the house. There might be three-phase distribution on the pole, but the transformer on the pole has a single phase primary and a 240V secondary with a center tap. It's wired to your panel such that 120V circuits are between one end or the other and the center tap (neutral), and 240V circuits are wired from one end to the other. Balancing the load is done by wiring some pole transformers with the primary between phase 1 and 2, some between phase 1 and 3, and some between phase 2 and 3. But each house only gets single-phase power, not three-phase. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 22:10:41 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 21:10:41 -0700 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <8BB386CA88DF4B41BA052EC2AFA5DBFB@RosemarysPC> Message-ID: In the US, if your house was wired for three-phase, you would have 208V nominal across your clothes dryer and range outlets, rather than 240V. A friend lived in an apartment building wired that way, and they routinely had problems with appliances designed for 240V not working properly or failing on the 208V. From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Nov 27 00:07:23 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 07:07:23 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <547685F0.9020803@pico-systems.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <4E2A6F6B7A0B47DE94BF04D668C0025F@310e2> <547685F0.9020803@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20141127060723.GA31008@beast.freibergnet.de> Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/26/2014 02:22 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Holm Tiffe" > > > >Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:06 AM > > > >>As I wrote before: Do you really think over there that > >>all people in > >>Countries that aren't part of the US are some sort of > >>Idiots? > >>I'm a German, are German Engeneeers stupid too? > > > We do have a special category in the US for "German > (over)engineering". > I first heard this when a friend of mine in high school > worked over the summer > for a Mercedes dealer. They were talking about automatic > transmissions > that had something like 45 valves in the shift logic, while > US transmissions > typically had 8 or fewer. > > I think the basic thrust has always been that the German > engineers missed > the part about doing the most with the minimum number of > moving parts. > > Jon You got it John, most cars hre don't have a single valve in the gear box. They have some sort of anti theft system for US People called "Handschaltung". Gru?, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Nov 27 00:10:32 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 07:10:32 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <4E2A6F6B7A0B47DE94BF04D668C0025F@310e2> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <4E2A6F6B7A0B47DE94BF04D668C0025F@310e2> Message-ID: <20141127061032.GB31008@beast.freibergnet.de> Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Holm Tiffe" > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:06 AM > > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >>I'll submit that if your goal is phase-to-phase balancing, distributing > >>single-phase to individual residences and then shifting the residences > >>to one phase or the other is probably better in that respect. In > >>Germany, ordinary wall receptacles are single-phase, so depending on the > >>homeowner to phase-balance his load is probably not the best policy. On > >>the other hand, doing the same for multi-residence (i.e. apartment > >>blocks) does make sense. > > > >As I wrote before: Do you really think over there that all people in > >Countries that aren't part of the US are some sort of Idiots? > >I'm a German, are German Engeneeers stupid too? > ------------ > Did Chuck really say that? *All* people?? Idiots??? No. and where I wrote that he sayed that? > > Honi soit qui mal y pense... > Applies to you too..you are scrambling up quotings.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 27 00:18:48 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 06:18:48 +0000 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <547685F0.9020803@pico-systems.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <4E2A6F6B7A0B47DE94BF04D668C0025F@310e2>,<547685F0.9020803@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > > We do have a special category in the US for "German > (over)engineering". ] As an aside, a friend of mine says "There's the right way, the wrong way, and the French way" :-) And having spent many hours under a Citroen, I can appreciate that. French engineering is certainly unconventional, although it is often excellent -tony From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Nov 27 00:26:21 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 07:26:21 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <54764072.1010705@sydex.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <20141126193109.GA92258@beast.freibergnet.de> <54764072.1010705@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141127062621.GC31008@beast.freibergnet.de> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/26/2014 11:31 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > >Ido have electrical Heaters here, in german called "Nachtspeicher?fen", > >that means they get heated up in the night at lower electricals costs > >(between 10pm and 6am) and buffer the head in some stones, over the day > >a fan is working from a thermostate and is heating the rooms. > >The oven in my living room has 4.2KW and another heater in the oven is > >additionally able to heat with 2.2KW (this one is able to heat over the day > >hours). > > Electrical resistive heating for household heading in the US is being > discouraged. There are government incentives to convert to much more > efficient heat pump technology--with the side benefit of air > conditioning in the summer. I do have "emergency" resistive heating > elements in my air handler--they're connected to two 40A/240V circuits. They are discouraged here too but in discussion lately as drain for Power peaks from solar/wind power plants, since they have some buffer capabilities. The ovens are 40 years old and are not mine, I'm living here for rent. > > Gas is at least as popular in the US for heat and cooking. Oil for > heating is also used. Coal has been obsolete for some years. I do > supplement my heating with wood--but then, I'm located in a rural area > where trees grow like fleas on a dog. No Gas here, but other Parts of the house are heated with Oil. > > >Almost impossible in the US. > > See above--such things are usually permanently connected. The Ovens are permanently connected too, but they are connected to the standard house distribution point. > > >You've not reading all my mails, don't you? > >I already wrote that I actually have a big industry grade vacuum cleaner > >with an 1.5 KW 3phase ansynchron motor and a zyklone. > > Yes, but that's atypical. You're not going to find that in the > appliance department of your local Karstadt, are you? No Karstadt here. This is a industrial device like a KL10 too, but nobody prevents me to power that thing properly und use it, even privately. The entire infrastructure to do that already exists. This diskussion here is about problems that US residents have to connect their gear to a 3 phase distribution. Those problems don't exist here, nevertheless you want to tell me that the US or NA power distribution system is the better one.. > > >Oh, besides of my tube amps most devices I have have transformers for more > >then 20Khz... > > I fail to see the relevance to AC distribution. I also have audio > transformers and tube gear. Sorry, that was your point. > > >Again, I wrote the US schould have changed this long before now, then now > >it is simply to late A to change that w/o gigantic costs. > >That doesn't mean that I think that the US has a nice power distribution > >network, from my sight (and not only my sight) this is stone age and there > >is nothing that you could do to change that. :-) > > Again, I fail to see your point. 240V 200A single-phase residential > distribution gets the power were it's needed. My neighbor has 240V/400A > single-phase because he has a larger house. 48 or 96KVA. Do you get > more in your house? 3x 230V 63A is standard. This is approx. the same level as your 200A Rating above but more flexible. If you want more you have to tell that to the power company, not impossible. (in my neightborhood is an aluminum cast company that has electrical heated ovens) > > >Sorry, who the f.. is Blefuscu? > > Surely, you're familiar with the Jonathan Swift novel "Gullilver's > Travels"? The book, not the children's cartoon series, is in reality a > biting social satire. Lilliput and Blefuscu were two kingdoms at war > over which end of an egg was best to open; i.e., fighting over nothing. > > --Chuck Ok, I've got the hint and I'll try to read that some time. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Nov 27 01:00:10 2014 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 01:00:10 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141127070010.GA18715@lonesome.com> On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 09:03:47PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Look through a 10K or 100K databook. I used to have one of the former around somewhere :-) Related question: is ECL still used in anything these days? mcl From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 27 01:11:26 2014 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 23:11:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <5BA9ABC9-DDFF-48C1-8F6C-53356B75F81B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20141123205348.A96B418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141123211459.GF23813@beast.freibergnet.de> <54728DFB.7070002@dunnington.plus.com> <20141124172939.GA2731@beast.freibergnet.de> <5BA9ABC9-DDFF-48C1-8F6C-53356B75F81B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Nov 2014, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2014-Nov-24, at 9:29 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Brent Hilpert wrote: >> [..] >>> Once you require the transformers to get down from 240V, you might as well go to the center-tapped 55-0-55 technique at a small increase in complexity over 0-110 for a further safety improvement. >> >> If you would ask me if I would change the usual german installations >> against the "higher security" of the NA system you would hear an >> No thanks" for sure... >> >> I know of no other country in the world where Plugs are so secure that they >> disconnect them selves from the outlet by simply falling out... > > Funny, I've never had a plug fall out of it's own accord. I've noticed a lot of AC sockets in airports are so worn that sometimes you need tape to keep plugs plugged in. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Nov 27 01:13:17 2014 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 01:13:17 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <54764072.1010705@sydex.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <20141126193109.GA92258@beast.freibergnet.de> <54764072.1010705@sydex.com> Message-ID: <464DE8D7-BAAA-45F0-92CA-225CA2FCDCDE@gmail.com> On Nov 26, 2014, at 3:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Electrical resistive heating for household heading in the US is being discouraged. There are government incentives to convert to much more efficient heat pump technology--with the side benefit of air conditioning in the summer. I do have "emergency" resistive heating elements in my air handler--they're connected to two 40A/240V circuits. Yeah, and heat pumps work great for heat until there is no heat in the outside air from which to extract. With my current (albeit aging) system, that temperature is around 28F, then it's on to the heat strips. > Surely, you're familiar with the Jonathan Swift novel "Gullilver's Travels"? The book, not the children's cartoon series, is in reality a biting social satire. Lilliput and Blefuscu were two kingdoms at war over which end of an egg was best to open; i.e., fighting over nothing. I have to admit that I always find this battle somewhat amusing. I am sure that there are a variety of reasons why one method is better than the other and vice versa. Nonetheless I am hard-pressed to think of a single time where I was unable to use some electrically powered device for as long as I can remember. Therefore I tend to think the system works just fine and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I wouldn't relish the idea of paying to rip out my current electrical service to replace with a 3-phase system. I'm quite happy living with it the way it is and paying the paltry $0.09/kWh we pay. I'm sure the massive cost to convert the system would negatively impact the rates we pay as well. Now, I have run across some rather stupid installs regardless of the NEC both in my current house and my last that I'm sure would be an issue whether we're talking the North American, German, UK, etc. systems. In my experience people don't understand electrical wiring very well. Anyway, In the last house, there was a 20A 120V outlet in the garage that I hooked a brand-new air compressor up to that I purchased from Lowes. The compressor ran just fine for about a minute, and then the motor began to arc and smoke. I thought, "great, this thing's defective" and carted it back to the store and they swapped it for a new one. I got it home and started to plug it in and decided I should be on the safe side and check the outlet. It was wired 240V instead of 120V despite having a 120V receptacle! In addition to that, in one room there was a ceiling fan attached to the peak of a vaulted ceiling... not attached to a ceiling box, which is of course a no-no as well. I have also run across some crazy wiring in our current house which was built in 1986. When we purchased the home, we noticed that in both of the front two upstairs bedrooms the light switches wouldn't operate the lights in the room. It was obvious that the old home owner was unhappy with the location of the ceiling fixture (I can't blame them) and so they relocated the fixture a couple feet to the side of the old box. The reason for this anomaly was that when the builder positioned the light in the room, they centered it over the longest span of the room, including the dormer which offset it for the main part of the room. Looked odd. Anyway, I finally got around to investigating this light switch issue and discovered in the master bedroom a wire was run from the old box to the new location, (again without a ceiling box ), that part makes sense. In the other bedroom, the light was offset by about the same distance as the master, so they again moved the fixture (NO CEILING BOX!!!!), but instead of wiring to the old box, they ran a wire from the new fixture location to the old ceiling box in the master bedroom... about 15' of unnecessary wire! The old ceiling box was left as is in the second bedroom, which explains why that light switch did nothing. Since the second bedroom was tapping off of the master's light power feed, we can't have both rooms being controlled by the same switch, can we? They bypassed the switch on the wall altogether. No wires were connected to the switch at all, they simply wire nutted the hots together there and left the dead switch in place. I have no idea if this was done by a licensed electrician or not, who knows... but it did There's a couple of other wacky things I've found, easily corrected but you get the idea. From wmachacek at q.com Wed Nov 26 14:25:35 2014 From: wmachacek at q.com (Bill Machacek) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 13:25:35 -0700 Subject: LogiTec MouseMan Mouse Message-ID: <005401d009b7$22cab700$68602500$@q.com> I have a couple of them, both untested. Let me know where you are and I'll send you one. No charge if you're in the US. Bill Machacek Colo. Springs, CO From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Nov 26 14:49:44 2014 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 20:49:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Available: Datapoint 1500 and 80's Compaq Deskpro available in Forth Wayne, IN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1365563579.932686.1417034984855.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100112.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I received this email, in case anyone's interested in these systems. The DataPoint is not the earliest 2200 system. Contact Laura below if interested. ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > I was wondering if anyone there would be interested in a Datapoint 1500 from the 70?s and a > Compaq Deskpro from the 80?s. Not sure if the Compaq fires up, but I do know the Datapoint > turns on (fan fires up), but nothing comes up on the screen.> > I?m located in Fort Wayne, Indiana. > > Laura Thoma-Dickinson > corychapin at aol.com > > From abs at absd.org Wed Nov 26 15:02:26 2014 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 21:02:26 +0000 Subject: LogiTec MouseMan Mm ecg g Message-ID: Mm On 26 Nov 2014 20:25, "Bill Machacek" wrote: > I have a couple of them, both untested. Let me know where you are and I'll > send you one. No charge if you're in the US. > > > > Bill Machacek > > Colo. Springs, CO > > > > From tpresence at hotmail.com Wed Nov 26 18:53:18 2014 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 17:53:18 -0700 Subject: Apple IIe/GBBSPro v1.3/MSS100 help Message-ID: Hey guys,I've been working on trying to get an internet based BBS setup on my apple IIe.I have GBBSPro 1.3 running on the IIe using a super serial card in slot 2, switched to run at 2400BPS. I have the modem set to external, and the modem type is "Hayes Smartmodem 2400".I am using a straight through 25M-25F between the MSS100 and the super serial card. The ssc selector block is pointing to "terminal". There is no null modem in the setup.The MSS100 is accepting remote connections, and the serial port is also at 2400BPS N81. The settings for Access: remote, DSR logout, DTR wait, and Modem Emulation are checked. I have tried all flow control options and none.When I telnet to the remote access port (2001 or 3001) it connects but immediately disconnects. Once in a while I see an modem initialization string on the terminal before it closes. The string is "ATX3S0=1&C1&D2S2=128". I understand what the init string does, but I'm not sure if its coming from the MSS100 or from the BBS. During this period, the bbs is just sitting at the "waiting for call" screen.If I turn off DSR logout, I do not get disconnected, but I'm not connected to the bbs.Anyone have any experience with this? Are there any settings that must be changed?Thanks in advance,Kevin? 2014 MicrosoftTermsPrivacy & cookiesDevelopersEnglish (United States) From tmfdmike at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 19:40:51 2014 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 14:40:51 +1300 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0C1F1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20141127004321.B693618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0C1F1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: Rich, I briefly had it running on MIT-AI (the KS, not the KA) in 2009 on an RM03, but the CRAM died and we haven't had the cycles available to do something about that. It's on deck for next year. (Yes, MIT-AI. We purchased it from CZ, who rescued it from the AILab skip, then from the Symbolics skip, then eventually sold it on eBay when he had to. It still has the MIT de-acquisition sticker on the front panel. It's next to the Toad-1 in the computer room.) ... > But, completely seriously, ITS is an amazing system, and although there are > a few running on simulators, I'm not sure anyone has it running on real > hardware. That would be Very Cool. I agree. As I noted in my response to John Wilson, I'm working on it. :-) I have a good RM03 and a good KS. Get me a pack with ITS on it and I'll work on it too :-) Mike On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Rich Alderson < RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote: > From: Noel Chiappa > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:43 PM > > >> From: Rich Alderson > > >> We have a non-running 1090 here at the museum > > > Oh, good, then you have a machine to run ITS on (along with ones for > WAITS > > and Tops-10! :-) > > Yes, we do, but not that one. "It's dim, Jed." > > > Just kidding (mostly); ITS did run on a KL (without hardware mods), but > I'm > > not sure which model it was; it was a pretty early one. > > ITS ran on exactly 1 KL, MIT-MC. It was a "Model A" system, probably a > KL10B > but I'd have to ask the owner. It's currently in storage in Sweden. > > > I know it had the external memory bus, and I _think_ it had the RH20s (I > > know it had RP's of some kind, I think MassBus, because one of them was > > dual-ported and the console 11 booted off of it, and I don't think it had > > whatever PDP-10 disk controller the KA's had). I guess it was a KL-B, > then? > > All KL10-based systems have RH20s. The front end 11/40 has an RH11, and > one > disk (at least) has to be dual-ported between the front end and the -10. > > > Whichever one it was, anyone who wanted to run ITS on a KL would > probably want > > the same model - I know ITS had custom microcode (in part to emulate the > MIT > > pager, which had a different page size from the BBN/DEC one, and also > because > > ITS used some custom instructions which had been added to the KA's), and > > although one could probably get that to run on a different model KL, it > might > > be (an unknown amount of) work. > > Yeah, I've thought about how much work it would be. I'd prefer to start > with > the MC system if I were going to run ITS on a KL. > > > But, completely seriously, ITS is an amazing system, and although there > are > > a few running on simulators, I'm not sure anyone has it running on real > > hardware. That would be Very Cool. > > I agree. As I noted in my response to John Wilson, I'm working on it. :-) > > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 27 01:42:45 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 23:42:45 -0800 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <464DE8D7-BAAA-45F0-92CA-225CA2FCDCDE@gmail.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <20141126193109.GA92258@beast.freibergnet.de> <54764072.1010705@sydex.com> <464DE8D7-BAAA-45F0-92CA-225CA2FCDCDE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5476D5F5.7050001@sydex.com> On 11/26/2014 11:13 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Yeah, and heat pumps work great for heat until there is no heat in > the outside air from which to extract. With my current (albeit aging) > system, that temperature is around 28F, then it's on to the heat > strips. Some of the neighbors have buried evaporator lines around their yard (so-called "geothermal" I've seen wells drilled for the same use. VERY expensive, but very efficient, even with energy tax credits. It really doesn't make much sense here on the "wet" side of the Cascades; we get perhaps a couple days of snow each winter--and it doesn't stick around. One thing that was promoted for a time was the "heat pump" water heater (e.g. GE Geospring). What with promotional pricing and energy credits, you could have one installed for free. Terrible reliability from what I can tell from customer reviews. If you want to see a very different take on electrical distribution, watch "Powerless" on the PBS series "Independent Lens". Makes you appreciate even the worst US rat's nest wiring: http://video.pbs.org/program/independent-lens/ (Good through Dec. 3) --Chuck From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Nov 27 02:18:08 2014 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 09:18:08 +0100 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? Message-ID: On 27 November 2014 at 08:13, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > > On Nov 26, 2014, at 3:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Electrical resistive heating for household hea[t]ing in the US is being discouraged. There are government incentives to convert to much more efficient heat pump technology--with the side benefit of air conditioning in the summer. I do have "emergency" resistive heating elements in my air handler--they're connected to two 40A/240V circuits. > > Yeah, and heat pumps work great for heat until there is no heat in the outside air from which to extract. With my current (albeit aging) system, that temperature is around 28F, then it's on to the heat strips. Just get a newer heat pump :-) They're getting better year by year. The technology improves rapidly. The one I have installed in my living room starts out at more than 4-to-1 efficiency, 4kW heat for 1kW of electricity. It doesn't get down to 1-to-1 until -20C, that's about -4F I think. And it doesn't really get that cold in my town. The heat pump is barely ticking over to keep the larger part of the house warm most of the time. I don't need any additional heating to keep the whole second floor warm if I wish to (just open the doors. The heat pump, although not a big model, can take it. But house insulation is also very good in Norway, and that's probably the best first step one should look at, everywhere). The newest models though (three to four years newer than mine) are closer to 5-to-1, and they are able to extract heat from outside air until the temperature drops down to -30C (-22F). It's really impressive. If someone had told me ten years ago that you can extract useful heat from air all the way down to -30C, for less energy than you put in, I would have rejected the notion. Most of these heat pumps are Japanese.. Panasonic, Mitsubishi etc. (there's also at least one Korean, from Samsung. I have no knowledge about it). Those Japanese heat pumps are called 'Nordic' models.. the funny thing is that I can't find them in Japan! Only "old style" combination heater/AC systems. Now there's a place where some energy efficiency is loudly called for. Seems their best goods are only for export, at least for that category. Anyway, that heat pump did wonders for the electricity bill, even though I used to burn (free) wood in a wood stove nearly every day all winter in the past. Not anymore, and I still use much less electricity. (And I just noticed that the price of heat pumps seems to have dropped by half compared to some years ago.) -Tor From simski at dds.nl Thu Nov 27 04:53:39 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:53:39 +0100 Subject: Apple IIe/GBBSPro v1.3/MSS100 help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <547702B3.3000008@dds.nl> I would like to suggest connecting the modem to another computer to eliminate the modem from the faultlist.it could be that the send side of the super serial card is working, but the receive side is broken On 27-11-14 01:53, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > Hey guys,I've been working on trying to get an internet based BBS setup on my apple IIe.I have GBBSPro 1.3 running on the IIe using a super serial card in slot 2, switched to run at 2400BPS. I have the modem set to external, and the modem type is "Hayes Smartmodem 2400".I am using a straight through 25M-25F between the MSS100 and the super serial card. The ssc selector block is pointing to "terminal". There is no null modem in the setup.The MSS100 is accepting remote connections, and the serial port is also at 2400BPS N81. The settings for Access: remote, DSR logout, DTR wait, and Modem Emulation are checked. I have tried all flow control options and none.When I telnet to the remote access port (2001 or 3001) it connects but immediately disconnects. Once in a while I see an modem initialization string on the terminal before it closes. The string is "ATX3S0=1&C1&D2S2=128". I understand what the init string does, but I'm not sure if its coming from the MSS100 or from the BB S . During this period, the bbs is just sitting at the "waiting for call" screen.If I turn off DSR logout, I do not get disconnected, but I'm not connected to the bbs.Anyone have any experience with this? Are there any settings that must be changed?Thanks in advance,Kevin? 2014 MicrosoftTermsPrivacy & cookiesDevelopersEnglish (United States) > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Nov 27 08:17:32 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 09:17:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I have an induction cooktop installed, which is vastly more efficient > that electrical resistance heating--and more controllable. (But it has its own downsides, like not working with glass pans - I have a glass skillet....) > I asked my local utility if there was an energy credit available for > that--the response was that cooking accounts for perhaps 2% of the > average household energy budget, [...] Interesting! What _does_ account for most of the draw? Are you in an area where electric is common as the energy source for routine heat? Thinking about my own experience, I'm fairly confident the ranking goes heating (if electrical), computers, cooking, and then everything else is down in the noise - and that's for me personally; most people don't have nearly the computer load I do. > In fact, many, if not most small electronics here (TV, computers, > etc.) use SMPSUs, so distribution voltage matters not a whit as far > as they're concerned. I've wondered about that. SMPSUs draw no current most of the cycle, drawing heavily on the peaks, without the smoothing effect of the mains transformer present in (most) non-switching supplies. This is almost nothing like most historical load, which is mostly either resistive or inductive. I'm curious whether it has a significant effect on the grid; do you happen to know? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 27 08:28:26 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 09:28:26 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > When a single-ended > signal crosses a power supply domain, if the supplies aren't very > close, bad things can happen. This is a problem that the power supply folks solved a long time ago. If they still can not get a number of supplies tracking each other properly, then fire them and get new guys. -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 27 09:28:57 2014 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 07:28:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple IIe/GBBSPro v1.3/MSS100 help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > Hey guys,I've been working on trying to get an internet based BBS setup > on my apple IIe.I have GBBSPro 1.3 running on the IIe using a super > serial card in slot 2, switched to run at 2400BPS. I have the modem set > to external, and the modem type is "Hayes Smartmodem 2400".I am using a > straight through 25M-25F between the MSS100 and the super serial card. You'll need a null modem in there unless the MSS100 is configured as DCE. The AT command string is coming from GBBS. You should know this. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 27 09:49:58 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 10:49:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] Message-ID: <20141127154958.E55A818C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rich Alderson > Yes, MIT-AI. We purchased it from CZ, who rescued it from the AILab > skip, then from the Symbolics skip, then eventually sold it on eBay > when he had to. It still has the MIT de-acquisition sticker on the > front panel. Wow! That machine still exists? I'm pretty blown away! I was the person who got the donation of the 3 KS's for MIT, actually! IIRC correctly, I heard that DEC was giving tham away, or something like that (I think they had an over-supply when they decided to turn off PDP-10 support), and I thought it would be cool to have some - MIT was turning off the KA-10 ITS machines at that point (too much space, too costly to maintain, etc, etc), and the KL MC clearly wasn't long for the world either (ditto). So I talked to people at MIT about how to do it, and someone talked to people at DEC (our salesman, IIRC), and I wound up writing a letter, which Dave Clark signed, explaining how ITS was a really significant system historically (giving the details on why), and how it would be great it DEC could donate a couple of these machines so it could continue to run, etc, etc. So three machines duly arrived, and I thought they were so cute (small little boxes) I decided they should be named after the three little droids in "Silent Running" (Huey, Duey and Louie) - so if you look inside the front door you should be able to find "MIT-HY" or "MIT-DY" or "MIT-LY" written somewhere in permanent marker. Alas, nobody else liked the idea, so they were given recycled names. Pissed me off no end (since they machines wouldn't even have been there, if not for me)! >> ITS is an amazing system, and although there are a few running on >> simulators, I'm not sure anyone has it running on real hardware. >> That would be Very Cool. > I agree. As I noted in my response .. I'm working on it. :-) Excellent news! Thanks! Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 27 10:00:42 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:00:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] Message-ID: <20141127160042.864CD18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Phil Budne > I think MIT-MC was a "1080" and only had RH10s. That sounds right. > I think they used a DL10 for PDP11 interfacing (including chaosnet and > some disks) I don't recall anymore, but I think there was only one -11 attached to the DL10 (couldn't they support up to 4?)? And yes, the Tridents (along with, IIRC, some serial lines, and the CHAOSNET) were attached to that -11. > and ran KLDCP (pre RSX20) on the console front end.... Yup. Although it had been hacked locally. After briefly glancing at the sources (see the KLDCP; directory, and IOELEV > in SYSTEM;), it was a real kludge; the IOELEV program ran in _both_ the DL10 -11, and the console -11. (In the latter case, along with KLDCP!!) There was some stuff attached to the console -11 too, apparently; a bunch of serial lines on DH11's. > ISTR a disk farm labeled "Moon's Laundromat" Yes, but I don't think that was on MC. I vaguely recall that it was on a bunch of drives which were mounted in vertical pairs, which must have been CalChomps, which I think must have been the original AI? (IIRC, both ML and DM had DEC RP drives.) Noel From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 27 09:31:53 2014 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 07:31:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple IIe/GBBSPro v1.3/MSS100 help In-Reply-To: <547702B3.3000008@dds.nl> References: <547702B3.3000008@dds.nl> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, Simon Claessen wrote: > I would like to suggest connecting the modem to another computer to eliminate > the modem from the faultlist.it could be that the send side of the super > serial card is working, but the receive side is broken > Another issue could be the configuration block on the SSC has it configured for serial printers and not for modems. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net Thu Nov 27 09:57:34 2014 From: alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net (Alex McWhirter) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 10:57:34 -0500 Subject: Apple Network Server, Anyone seen one? Message-ID: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> This were produced by apple in the mid 90?s. The ran AIX and were pretty large machines. I?ve been looking for one for a couple of months to no avail. Considering they were only produced for a year should i assume that they have all be crushed? From kula at tproa.net Thu Nov 27 10:27:58 2014 From: kula at tproa.net (Thomas Kula) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:27:58 -0500 Subject: Apple Network Server, Anyone seen one? In-Reply-To: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> References: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> Message-ID: <20141127162758.GK1318@gozer.tproa.net> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:57:34AM -0500, Alex McWhirter wrote: > This were produced by apple in the mid 90?s. The ran AIX and were pretty large machines. I?ve been looking for one for a couple of months to no avail. Considering they were only produced for a year should i assume that they have all be crushed? I saw one in the flesh (metal?) about a decade ago, someone in the local Unix group owned it. Haven't since one then. -- Thomas L. Kula | kula at tproa.net | http://kula.tproa.net/ From scaron at umich.edu Thu Nov 27 10:35:58 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:35:58 -0500 Subject: Apple Network Server, Anyone seen one? In-Reply-To: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> References: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> Message-ID: Only in pictures, never in the flesh. I am pretty sure at least a few of them made it into private collections at one point... didn't the Applefritter guy have one? Best, Sean On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:57 AM, Alex McWhirter < alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net> wrote: > This were produced by apple in the mid 90?s. The ran AIX and were pretty > large machines. I?ve been looking for one for a couple of months to no > avail. Considering they were only produced for a year should i assume that > they have all be crushed? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 27 10:39:39 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:39:39 -0500 Subject: Apple Network Server, Anyone seen one? In-Reply-To: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> References: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> Message-ID: We had one kicking around ANS (the backbone people) while I was there in the late 1990s, but I never used it - it belonged to a different department. I do not know what happened to it. Good luck trying to pry one out of an Apple collector! -- Will On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:57 AM, Alex McWhirter wrote: > This were produced by apple in the mid 90?s. The ran AIX and were pretty large machines. I?ve been looking for one for a couple of months to no avail. Considering they were only produced for a year should i assume that they have all be crushed? From turing at shaw.ca Thu Nov 27 10:41:11 2014 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 09:41:11 -0700 (MST) Subject: Ti microExplorer In-Reply-To: <1309835937.97255409.1417105850812.JavaMail.root@cds032> Message-ID: <411198119.97263883.1417106471021.JavaMail.root@cds032> Hi: I've been collecting Lisp items for several years now; I had acquired a Symbolics MacIvory through the 'usual channels' as well as a TI microExplorer that took years to assemble. When I moved a couple of years ago, I didn't realize that the microExplorer had suffered a fatal injury, until I attempted to power it up at the request of someone interested in it. As most of the 'old Lisp' mailing lists are more-or-less defunct, and the current generation of Lisp enthusiasts appear to be focussed on software-only systems, I'm hoping that someone on this list knows where it might be possible to get boards for the TI microExplorer or, hopefully, has one that they'd be interested in making available. I realize that this is quite a long shot, as the system was developed in the lat '80s and didn't see a lot of sales. [I'd even be happy with a second MacIvory, if someone was willing to part with it...] From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Nov 27 10:57:35 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 10:57:35 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <547685F0.9020803@pico-systems.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <4E2A6F6B7A0B47DE94BF04D668C0025F@310e2> <547685F0.9020803@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <547757FF.3060903@pico-systems.com> On 11/26/2014 08:01 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > We do have a special category in the US for "German > (over)engineering". > I first heard this when a friend of mine in high school > worked over the summer > for a Mercedes dealer. I should also mention that was in 1968. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Nov 27 11:10:14 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:10:14 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54775AF6.8030502@pico-systems.com> On 11/26/2014 09:47 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > Will wrote: > > "On the other hand, ECL does not suffer from the spikes, burps and > farts TTL tends to make. > > Late model Cybers tend to have very little in the way of filtering, > simply because the ECL load is "nice"." > > ECL, if done properly, uses a terminator on every signal line. On MECL it is usually it's 560 ohms to -5.2v or 220 ohms to -2.2 volts. There are two ways to do it. You can have a terminator at the far end of the line and a pull-down at the driver end. The pull-down will be as you mention above, but the terminator will be a much lower resistance, somewhere between 51 and 91 Ohms, typically. The other way is to have the terminator resistor combine both functions, so you only need one resistor at the far end of the line. Very short lines can be done with only the pull-down resistor. Generally, you can only get away with that for a couple inches. The terminator power is so large in ECL systems it can often exceed the power dissipation in the chips themselves. The terminator needs to match the characteristic impedance of the transmission line. It is probably around 80-90 Ohms for wire wrap wire over a backplane. Differential ribbon cable is 110 Ohms, and coax can be anywhere from 51 - 91 Ohms. So, if you have a 91 Ohm terminating resistor to -2.2 V, and the logic high is -0.8 V, then the terminating resistor draws 15 mA! Now, assume 1000 single-ended terminated lines and you've got 15 Amps. Since damn near EVERY line needs to be terminated, it is real easy to get to 1000 terminators. So, that's why short lines only use pull-down resistors, to save power. A logic low on the same scheme draws about 6.5 mA, but the 220 Ohm pull-down only draws 6 mA on the worst case (logic high). Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Nov 27 11:16:12 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:16:12 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: <8BB386CA88DF4B41BA052EC2AFA5DBFB@RosemarysPC> Message-ID: <54775C5C.8030001@pico-systems.com> On 11/26/2014 10:10 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > In the US, if your house was wired for three-phase, you would have > 208V nominal across your clothes dryer and range outlets, rather than > 240V. A friend lived in an apartment building wired that way, and > they routinely had problems with appliances designed for 240V not > working properly or failing on the 208V. > Yes, there are industrial air conditioning and such gear made for 208/240 use. Generally, most consumer-grade A/C's are 240 only. The 208 V situation in the apartment buildings is quite common, and the gear installed when the building went up would be the right type. Any A/C installer who goes to an apartment building OUGHT to know about this, and if they installed a 240 V unit there, they were just not well-trained. Our building at work has 240 V Delta, 120/208 V Wye and 480 V Delta, rather haphazardly scattered around. The office area has the 120/208 and there are autotransformers attached to the walls near the windows for running 240 V window A/C units off the 208 V. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Nov 27 11:23:50 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:23:50 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <20141127070010.GA18715@lonesome.com> References: <20141127070010.GA18715@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <54775E26.3040200@pico-systems.com> On 11/27/2014 01:00 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 09:03:47PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: >> Look through a 10K or 100K databook. > I used to have one of the former around somewhere :-) > > Related question: is ECL still used in anything these days? > > mcl > Not much, any more. The old 10K and 100K ECL has not been produced since the late 80's, I think. There is still a fair amount of new old stock somewhere, maybe people are salvaging chips off boards. It is still a standard method of sending trigger signals around in nuclear data acquisition systems, and MC10124 and 10125 TTL-ECL translators are used a lot, but otherwise ECL logic functions are RARELY used. Now, everybody in the nuclear business is moving to LVDS, gives all the advantages of fast differential signalling without the huge power dissipation. (My day job is in the area of nuclear signal processing, and I designed a bunch of ECL gear about 20 years ago. We still use that stuff, and I maintain it, but haven't built anything new except occasionally using a 10124 or 10125 to connect to the old stuff. For logic, we can do stuff with FPGAs that will run rings around the old ECL.) Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Nov 27 11:29:54 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:29:54 -0600 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54775F92.2010809@pico-systems.com> On 11/27/2014 08:28 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> When a single-ended >> signal crosses a power supply domain, if the supplies aren't very >> close, bad things can happen. > This is a problem that the power supply folks solved a long time ago. > If they still can not get a number of supplies tracking each other > properly, then fire them and get new guys. > Well, when you have hundreds of Amps flowing across the backplane, it gets hard to have all boards having the same voltage. Even if you have, maybe 4 boards in a block, there will be significant voltage drop from the feed end to the far end. If you make the power planes too thick, it becomes impossible to solder the backplane connectors, so you have to go to press-fit contacts. That is all well-known technology now, but might have been on the cutting edge when the KL10 was designed. Jon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 27 12:04:41 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 13:04:41 -0500 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: <54775F92.2010809@pico-systems.com> References: <54775F92.2010809@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > Well, when you have hundreds of Amps flowing across the backplane, it gets > hard to have all boards having the same voltage. Even if you have, maybe 4 > boards in a block, there will be significant voltage drop from the feed end > to the far end. If you make the power planes too thick, it becomes > impossible > to solder the backplane connectors, so you have to go to press-fit contacts. Yes, I realize the problems, and I am not even a power supply guy. I do know that it is enough of a concern that *qualified* power supply guys need to be hired to come up with a working system. > That is all well-known technology now, but might have been on the cutting > edge when the KL10 was designed. No, balancing big parallel power supplies goes back quite some ways, into the 1950s, at least. -- Will From cctalk at fahimi.net Thu Nov 27 12:07:35 2014 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 10:07:35 -0800 Subject: Apple Network Server, Anyone seen one? In-Reply-To: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> References: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> Message-ID: <02dc01d00a6d$0792ab30$16b80190$@net> > This were produced by apple in the mid 90?s. The ran AIX and were > pretty large machines. I?ve been looking for one for a couple of months > to no avail. Considering they were only produced for a year should i > assume that they have all be crushed? Not in person however in the past few years at least two have come up on eBay for sale at ungodly prices ($1500 - $2000 AFAIR). So no they are not all crushed but they are pretty hard to come by. -Ali From brain at jbrain.com Thu Nov 27 12:16:42 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 12:16:42 -0600 Subject: Vince Briel computers In-Reply-To: <54695BE6.6070305@snarc.net> References: <5468F567.1060809@the-planet.org> <54695BE6.6070305@snarc.net> Message-ID: <54776A8A.9000501@jbrain.com> On 11/16/2014 8:22 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> anyone have any direct contact information other than his email address? > > I would've give out contact info without permission, but I sent him a > text just now. A bit of an update, if it helps. Vince gets his 22/44 edge connectors from me, and I just got an order from him today (he must be catching up on things during the US Holiday). He's put rush on the order, so that must mean he's trying to get everyone's orders out. I may end up being the delay now (my apologies in advance), as he's ordered more than I have on hand :-). The rest of my stock is at the assembly house... But, I do have some to send him tomorrow. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Thu Nov 27 12:16:42 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 12:16:42 -0600 Subject: Vince Briel computers In-Reply-To: <54695BE6.6070305@snarc.net> References: <5468F567.1060809@the-planet.org> <54695BE6.6070305@snarc.net> Message-ID: <54776A8A.9000501@jbrain.com> On 11/16/2014 8:22 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> anyone have any direct contact information other than his email address? > > I would've give out contact info without permission, but I sent him a > text just now. A bit of an update, if it helps. Vince gets his 22/44 edge connectors from me, and I just got an order from him today (he must be catching up on things during the US Holiday). He's put rush on the order, so that must mean he's trying to get everyone's orders out. I may end up being the delay now (my apologies in advance), as he's ordered more than I have on hand :-). The rest of my stock is at the assembly house... But, I do have some to send him tomorrow. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Nov 27 12:47:19 2014 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 18:47:19 +0000 Subject: SMD replacement options? Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BB73D06EF@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> http://www.mbiusa.com/mbi_000010.htm From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 27 13:00:30 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:00:30 -0800 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> On 11/27/2014 06:17 AM, Mouse wrote: > (But it has its own downsides, like not working with glass pans - I > have a glass skillet....) It's more serious than that. The cooking utensil has to be ferromagnetic. So, my substantial investment in 18/10 stainless steel cookware is out; however, cheap 18/0 stainless works fine. My Le Creuset porcelain-over-cast iron are fine as are my All-Clad stainless. I have a considerable inventory of older borosilicate Pyrex (not the cheap soda-lime that passes for Pyrex nowadays) as well as pieces of Corning glasswre that are more than 40 years old. Those get relegated to ovenware and storage. Fortunately, better makers of cookware are now starting to laminate a steel insert into pot bottoms. Given the low thermal conductivity of glass, I've wondered if cooktop use can be justified But induction's come a long way since Princess Margaret started using it. > Interesting! What _does_ account for most of the draw? Are you in an > area where electric is common as the energy source for routine heat? > Thinking about my own experience, I'm fairly confident the ranking goes > heating (if electrical), computers, cooking, and then everything else > is down in the noise - and that's for me personally; most people don't > have nearly the computer load I do. Other than living space heating, I understand that a water heater accounts for a substantial part of an all-electric home's energy consumption. Lighting also used to be high on the list, but since CFL adoption has picked up, I don't think that it accounts for the load that it once did. Eventually, LEDs can be expected to supplant CFLs. > I've wondered about that. SMPSUs draw no current most of the cycle, > drawing heavily on the peaks, without the smoothing effect of the mains > transformer present in (most) non-switching supplies. This is almost > nothing like most historical load, which is mostly either resistive or > inductive. I'm curious whether it has a significant effect on the > grid; do you happen to know? "Dirty" harmonic-laden current from SMPSUs is a problem. But that problem also arises from the lowly CFL. Right now, the problem is being mostly ignored. I read an interesting paper that suggests that HVDC for large server farms may be the best answer in that case. --Chuck From jonathan.chote at gmail.com Thu Nov 27 13:04:52 2014 From: jonathan.chote at gmail.com (Jonathan Chote) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 08:04:52 +1300 Subject: IBM RT - AOS / SAUTIL Message-ID: <547775D4.8060004@gmail.com> Hey everyone, I've seen a few topics on here in the past regarding the IBM RT, so thought I'd ask around here. I'm installing a new ESDI drive in my 6150 Model 135. I've mostly been researching the old Usenet group and the FAQ to work bits out but now I've become stuck. It seems the fail-safe trick to getting non-IBM ESDI units working is to perform a blind format using the AOS SAUTIL disk. Does anybody have access to this disk or disk image or know where I can find one? My AIX 2.2.1 / VRM disk returns "I/O error writing configuration record" during format which I believe is because the drive needs to be cleared. IBM PC RT Diagnostics won't recognize a drive and format until it has the configuration record. Any help tracking down that SAUTIL disk or assistance would be much appreciated. Thanks! Jonathan From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Nov 27 13:39:23 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 13:39:23 -0600 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi Chuck, The lack of heating in your antimagnetic stainless or copper cookware isn't due to a lack of ferromagnetic content - it's a different situation entirely. The issue stems from the electrical properties of the bulk material - in essence, those pots are +too good+ of a conductor at the frequencies in use. The currents flow in a deep, thick layer and encounter trivial resistance. It's this lack of resistance that's responsible for the lack of heat production . I'm sure you've seen the well-known 'magnet down the copper pipe' demonstration, which shows clearly that eddy currents develop just fine in copper - which certainly isn't in the ferromagnetic series. As for glass or ceramic, they're electrical insulators, so there's little to zero current flow at all, and again, no heat production. On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/27/2014 06:17 AM, Mouse wrote: > > (But it has its own downsides, like not working with glass pans - I >> have a glass skillet....) >> > > It's more serious than that. The cooking utensil has to be > ferromagnetic. So, my substantial investment in 18/10 stainless steel > cookware is out; however, cheap 18/0 stainless works fine. My Le Creuset > porcelain-over-cast iron are fine as are my All-Clad stainless. > > I have a considerable inventory of older borosilicate Pyrex (not the cheap > soda-lime that passes for Pyrex nowadays) as well as pieces of Corning > glasswre that are more than 40 years old. Those get relegated to ovenware > and storage. Fortunately, better makers of cookware are now starting to > laminate a steel insert into pot bottoms. Given the low thermal > conductivity of glass, I've wondered if cooktop use can be justified But > induction's come a long way since Princess Margaret started using it. > > Interesting! What _does_ account for most of the draw? Are you in an >> area where electric is common as the energy source for routine heat? >> Thinking about my own experience, I'm fairly confident the ranking goes >> heating (if electrical), computers, cooking, and then everything else >> is down in the noise - and that's for me personally; most people don't >> have nearly the computer load I do. >> > > Other than living space heating, I understand that a water heater accounts > for a substantial part of an all-electric home's energy consumption. > Lighting also used to be high on the list, but since CFL adoption has > picked up, I don't think that it accounts for the load that it once did. > Eventually, LEDs can be expected to supplant CFLs. > > I've wondered about that. SMPSUs draw no current most of the cycle, >> drawing heavily on the peaks, without the smoothing effect of the mains >> transformer present in (most) non-switching supplies. This is almost >> nothing like most historical load, which is mostly either resistive or >> inductive. I'm curious whether it has a significant effect on the >> grid; do you happen to know? >> > > "Dirty" harmonic-laden current from SMPSUs is a problem. But that problem > also arises from the lowly CFL. Right now, the problem is being mostly > ignored. I read an interesting paper that suggests that HVDC for large > server farms may be the best answer in that case. > > --Chuck > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Nov 27 13:42:21 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:42:21 -0800 Subject: SMD replacement options? In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BB73D06EF@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BB73D06EF@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: There was also the Reactive / ARRAID AEM-1 SMD Drive Emulation System. http://www.reactivedata.com/Products/Legacy_Disk_and_Tape_Emulators/Disk_Drive_Emulation_Systems/AEM-1/index.php No idea if you could actually find one of those. There are a couple of the AEM-5C Diablo emulators on eBay. Only asking in the neighborhood of $1500 for those. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 27 14:11:14 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 12:11:14 -0800 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> On 11/27/2014 11:39 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > Hi Chuck, > > The lack of heating in your antimagnetic stainless or copper cookware isn't > due to a lack of ferromagnetic content - it's a different situation > entirely. The issue stems from the electrical properties of the bulk > material - in essence, those pots are +too good+ of a conductor at the > frequencies in use. The currents flow in a deep, thick layer and encounter > trivial resistance. It's this lack of resistance that's responsible for the > lack of heat production . > > I'm sure you've seen the well-known 'magnet down the copper pipe' > demonstration, which shows clearly that eddy currents develop just fine in > copper - which certainly isn't in the ferromagnetic series. As for glass or > ceramic, they're electrical insulators, so there's little to zero current > flow at all, and again, no heat production. This goes counter to my experience. Any utensil that passes the "magnet test" will work; any that don't, don't. I've never found an exception to this. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Nov 27 14:14:58 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 13:14:58 -0700 Subject: Who's rewired their house for this hobby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 7:28 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> When a single-ended >> signal crosses a power supply domain, if the supplies aren't very >> close, bad things can happen. > > This is a problem that the power supply folks solved a long time ago. > If they still can not get a number of supplies tracking each other > properly, then fire them and get new guys. That was my point. The KL10 used separate regulators with remote sense to achieve that. If they had used "one big regulator" as claimed elsewhere in this thread, it would NOT have worked. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 27 10:54:56 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 08:54:56 -0800 Subject: Apple Network Server, Anyone seen one? In-Reply-To: References: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> Message-ID: <54775760.6020201@bitsavers.org> On 11/27/14 8:39 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > We had one kicking around ANS (the backbone people) while I was there > in the late 1990s, but I never used it - it belonged to a different > department. I do not know what happened to it. > > Good luck trying to pry one out of an Apple collector! > I know someone was talking at some point about getting one, and getting the rom set that would let you boot MacOS on it (which I never even saw a copy of). I only ever saw them in the server group development lab. There were all sorts of weird things going on associated with Shiner, including a port of portable Netware that never saw the light of day. The plastic "didn't quite work in a rack" packaging was probably the most stupid thing about it. What actually made it out the door was a scaled-down version of the original design. An interesting bit of trivia was one of the main Shiner hardware guys (Dennis Yarak) brother (Keith) was project lead on the XServe. They almost figured out how rack-mounted equipment should be packaged on that. Dennis went over to portables and did a bunch of the work on the G4 powerbooks onward. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 27 10:57:24 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 08:57:24 -0800 Subject: Ti microExplorer In-Reply-To: <411198119.97263883.1417106471021.JavaMail.root@cds032> References: <411198119.97263883.1417106471021.JavaMail.root@cds032> Message-ID: <547757F4.60408@bitsavers.org> On 11/27/14 8:41 AM, Norman Jaffe wrote: > Hi: > > I've been collecting Lisp items for several years now; I had acquired a Symbolics MacIvory through the 'usual channels' as well as a TI microExplorer that took years to assemble. > When I moved a couple of years ago, I didn't realize that the microExplorer had suffered a fatal injury, until I attempted to power it up at the request of someone interested in it. > As most of the 'old Lisp' mailing lists are more-or-less defunct, and the current generation of Lisp enthusiasts appear to be focussed on software-only systems, I'm hoping that someone on this list knows where it might be possible to get boards for the TI microExplorer or, hopefully, has one that they'd be interested in making available. > I realize that this is quite a long shot, as the system was developed in the lat '80s and didn't see a lot of sales. > [I'd even be happy with a second MacIvory, if someone was willing to part with it...] > > Does it have the memory piggy back card? If it does, did you try running it without it? Are you running it in the same Mac that you originally ran it on? They are pretty picky about what they will work in. From turing at shaw.ca Thu Nov 27 11:33:55 2014 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 10:33:55 -0700 (MST) Subject: Ti microExplorer In-Reply-To: <547757F4.60408@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <252149843.97326615.1417109635400.JavaMail.root@cds032> Hi Al: I ran it in the original box and tried it in the box housing the MacIvory; I haven't tried removing the memory piggy back card - when it powers up, a single red LED is on and the Macintosh microExplorer software reports a failure to connect. I'm several miles away from the system right now, but I can gather some more detailed information later this afternoon. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: cctech at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2014 8:57:24 AM Subject: Re: Ti microExplorer On 11/27/14 8:41 AM, Norman Jaffe wrote: > Hi: > > I've been collecting Lisp items for several years now; I had acquired a Symbolics MacIvory through the 'usual channels' as well as a TI microExplorer that took years to assemble. > When I moved a couple of years ago, I didn't realize that the microExplorer had suffered a fatal injury, until I attempted to power it up at the request of someone interested in it. > As most of the 'old Lisp' mailing lists are more-or-less defunct, and the current generation of Lisp enthusiasts appear to be focussed on software-only systems, I'm hoping that someone on this list knows where it might be possible to get boards for the TI microExplorer or, hopefully, has one that they'd be interested in making available. > I realize that this is quite a long shot, as the system was developed in the lat '80s and didn't see a lot of sales. > [I'd even be happy with a second MacIvory, if someone was willing to part with it...] > > Does it have the memory piggy back card? If it does, did you try running it without it? Are you running it in the same Mac that you originally ran it on? They are pretty picky about what they will work in. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 27 12:46:26 2014 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 10:46:26 -0800 Subject: Apple Network Server, Anyone seen one? In-Reply-To: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> References: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> Message-ID: <1F5C1F09-1C97-4B96-8BF5-3C475DD615EA@aracnet.com> I know that Cameron Kaiser has, or at least had, one or more at home. Is he still on the list, in thinking about it, I can't remember when I last saw a post from him. Zane On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:57 AM, Alex McWhirter wrote: > This were produced by apple in the mid 90?s. The ran AIX and were pretty large machines. I?ve been looking for one for a couple of months to no avail. Considering they were only produced for a year should i assume that they have all be crushed? From js at cimmeri.com Thu Nov 27 15:25:12 2014 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 16:25:12 -0500 Subject: SMD replacement options? In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BB73D06EF@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BB73D06EF@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <547796B8.6030008@cimmeri.com> Anyone ever priced one of these? On 11/27/2014 1:47 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > http://www.mbiusa.com/mbi_000010.htm > > From jlo at ludd.ltu.se Thu Nov 27 16:10:43 2014 From: jlo at ludd.ltu.se (Jon) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 23:10:43 +0100 Subject: SMD replacement options? In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BB73D06EF@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:42 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > There was also the Reactive / ARRAID AEM-1 SMD Drive Emulation System. > > http://www.reactivedata.com/Products/Legacy_Disk_and_Tape_Emulators/Disk_Drive_Emulation_Systems/AEM-1/index.php > > No idea if you could actually find one of those. There are a couple of > the AEM-5C Diablo emulators on eBay. Only asking in the neighborhood > of $1500 for those. I picked up an Arraid AEM-1 system from work earlier this year when they were junking them, and I plan on using it with a Xylogics 450 card, when (if...) I can get my Sun 2/120 restored. I don't know yet if it'll work, but I'm pretty hopeful because it seems very configurable and capable of emulating different drives. Uses a 50-pin SCSI drive; maybe pluck a SCSI-emulator card in there and get an SSD-drive, hehehe! From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Nov 27 23:51:09 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 23:51:09 -0600 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> Message-ID: Hey Chuck, On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > This goes counter to my experience. Any utensil that passes the "magnet > test" will work; any that don't, don't. > > I've never found an exception to this. > > In retrospect, my comments may have been a bit pedantic - as you have found, the 'magnet test' is more than likely an effective method for selecting compatible cookware. The point of my post, was that it's not actually the presence or lack of ferromagnetic characteristics which are responsible for the compatibility or incompatibility of the given cookware. Let me see if I can explain this without further muddying the waters: I think we all understand that induction heating is the result of eddy current propagation within the cookware - this is one of the reasons that it's more efficient than traditional contact-coupled resistive elements operated off AC mains power. But like any _resistive_ heating element, the cookware must offer sufficient _resistance_ to the impressed currents to produce any heating effects - that's just I^2*R. In the case of most copper, antimagnetic stainless or aluminum vessels, the eddy currents actually propagate a bit too well - that is, the effective resistance of the imposed current path is too low for any useful ohmic heating to take place. In other words, the currents flow, but the voltage drops are inconsequential. Or that's how I understand it. As ever, I await my ongoing education.. ;-) From bpettitx at comcast.net Fri Nov 28 00:35:45 2014 From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 22:35:45 -0800 Subject: Cyber ECL Wiring Message-ID: <179C0FF8230848819C5B75055AC757D5@RosemarysPC> Eric Smith wrote: "Another approach is to use single-ended on a module, but only differential between modules. To do it properly, the differential signals between modules need to be twisted pairs." You are correct. Eric, have you seen a Cyber 170 chassis? There is no back plane. Every signal uses twisted pair wire wrap from module to module. It was horrible to build, wire mats inches thick. We used to allow field engineers 10 minutes per signal line for engineering change orders. Provided, the line did not need to be tuned. Tuning was done by changing wire length. It was not elegant by later standards but was very very fast for the era. One of the downsides to using differential wiring throughout the system was the manufacturing time measured in months. Of course, they sold for millions or tens of millions of dollars so it was worth this approach. At the time, early 1970's, there was not a lot LSI available in ECL. So most of the Cyber series, and early Crays used SSI. Chip count was never as important as speed. The one MSI that I remember being critical was the 10181, an ALU chip. To use it and keep signal lengths short, the arithemetic chassis was laid out with the ALUs in the middle and the registers around them in a circle. The carry tree was at the center of design. Internally, word size was a bastard mix of 60 and 64 bits. The higher performance models were a mixture of discrete modules from the 7600 and ECL modules from the Cyber 173. It's hard to visualise with today's technology. The multiply unit took an entire chassis! Memory took multiple chassis. All I/O cables and interchassis cables were differential tuned cables. All I/O had to use the same length cables. As Chuck mentioned, 400 Hz MGs provided the power. It was distributed to the chassis where the diodes were mounted in alunimum bars, cooled by freon. If you get a chance sometime, look at the Cray-1. The part where you sit is all power components. The circular logic chassis was primarily to keep wire length short. Seymour tried to build it using an absolute minimum of chip types, only two for much of the logic. He felt that MSI and LSI stole speed from his design. Billy Pettit From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 28 00:53:00 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 22:53:00 -0800 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> On 11/27/2014 09:51 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > In the case of most copper, antimagnetic stainless or aluminum vessels, the > eddy currents actually propagate a bit too well - that is, the effective > resistance of the imposed current path is too low for any useful ohmic > heating to take place. In other words, the currents flow, but the voltage > drops are inconsequential. Well, my view is that the substance being heated has to have a sufficiently high relative permeability to work--and in a way, it's tied into your resistive explanation. There isn't a lot of electrical difference with 18 percent chromium stainless steels, but the 10 percent nickel is a game killer in 18/10 stainless. I've got a sheet of pure nickel, which is ferromagnetic. I should give it a try on my cooker and report back. A high-permeability ferromagnetic substance will tend to support formation of a magnetic field at fairly shallow depths in the material, and thus induction of a current and subsequent heating. Were this a purely resistive effect, a sheet of very thin copper foil or a graphite disk would also be great candidates for induction heating, which (I can verify this by experimentation) they aren't. isn't. Of course, the frequency has an effect as well. I think of it as a transformer with a shorted winding. At induction cooker frequencies, the coupling will be stronger if a ferromagnetic core is used. Maybe we're arguing two sides of the same coin? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 28 00:59:20 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 22:59:20 -0800 Subject: Cyber ECL Wiring In-Reply-To: <179C0FF8230848819C5B75055AC757D5@RosemarysPC> References: <179C0FF8230848819C5B75055AC757D5@RosemarysPC> Message-ID: <54781D48.9040106@sydex.com> On 11/27/2014 10:35 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > You are correct. Eric, have you seen a Cyber 170 chassis? There is > no back plane. Every signal uses twisted pair wire wrap from module > to module. It was horrible to build, wire mats inches thick. We > used to allow field engineers 10 minutes per signal line for > engineering change orders. > > Provided, the line did not need to be tuned. Tuning was done by > changing wire length. It was not elegant by later standards but was > very very fast for the era. One of the downsides to using > differential wiring throughout the system was the manufacturing time > measured in months. Of course, they sold for millions or tens of > millions of dollars so it was worth this approach. It didn't start with the 170, did it Billy? I remember a nice thick mat of twisted-pair wires on the backplanes of 6000s, as well as in a lot of attached controllers. Taper pin technology. A co-worker of mine had, as his first job fresh from UofM, measuring all of the loops to which Seymour had attached tags that said "Tune". --Chuck From tpresence at hotmail.com Thu Nov 27 18:13:55 2014 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 17:13:55 -0700 Subject: Apple IIe/GBBSPro v1.3/MSS100 help In-Reply-To: <547702B3.3000008@dds.nl> References: , <547702B3.3000008@dds.nl> Message-ID: I went through testing both ends of the connection with a PC running linux and minicom.? Test #1 - All devices and software set to 2400BPS N81. MS100 connected to the network, connected to linux pc using a USB-> Serial adapter with minicom When I telnet to the MS100 remote access port, the linux pc sees: RING CONNECT 2400 Anything typed after that goes through to the other end. ?Bidirectional works. Test #2 - All devices and software set to 2400BPS N81. Apple II SSC connected to USB->Serial adapter connected to linux PC running minicom GBBSPro set to using external SSC in slot 2 with Hayes Smartmodem 2400 or USR Courier 2400. When I bring GBBS Pro up: On the linux PC: Initially garbage init string from GBBS. Typing: RING? CONNECT 2400 or? RING CONNECT does nothing. Test #3 - All devices and software set to 2400BPS N81. Apple II SSC connected to USB->Serial adapter connected to linux PC running minicom Proterm set up in unattended mode Linux PC: Garbage (init string from proterm) If I turn the baud rate down on the MSS100 and the baud rate down on minicom Linux PC: stuff typed on both sides work as expected. So it appears that connectivity works at 1200 bps, but not at 2400bps. ?What might cause this? The strange thing is, I can connect at 19200 or 115200 with ADTPRO from this same setup to the linux pc running ATDPRO. This tells me that the cabling and all devices are intact. My worry is that GBBSPRO doesn't know what to do with "CONNECT 2400", but maybe I am wrong. ?Any ideas? Kevin > Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:53:39 +0100 > From: simski at dds.nl > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Apple IIe/GBBSPro v1.3/MSS100 help > > I would like to suggest connecting the modem to another computer to > eliminate the modem from the faultlist.it could be that the send side of > the super serial card is working, but the receive side is broken > > On 27-11-14 01:53, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >> Hey guys,I've been working on trying to get an internet based BBS setup on my apple IIe.I have GBBSPro 1.3 running on the IIe using a super serial card in slot 2, switched to run at 2400BPS. I have the modem set to external, and the modem type is "Hayes Smartmodem 2400".I am using a straight through 25M-25F between the MSS100 and the super serial card. The ssc selector block is pointing to "terminal". There is no null modem in the setup.The MSS100 is accepting remote connections, and the serial port is also at 2400BPS N81. The settings for Access: remote, DSR logout, DTR wait, and Modem Emulation are checked. I have tried all flow control options and none.When I telnet to the remote access port (2001 or 3001) it connects but immediately disconnects. Once in a while I see an modem initialization string on the terminal before it closes. The string is "ATX3S0=1&C1&D2S2=128". I understand what the init string does, but I'm not sure if its coming from the MSS100 or from the BB > S > . During this period, the bbs is just sitting at the "waiting for call" screen.If I turn off DSR logout, I do not get disconnected, but I'm not connected to the bbs.Anyone have any experience with this? Are there any settings that must be changed?Thanks in advance,Kevin? 2014 MicrosoftTermsPrivacy & cookiesDevelopersEnglish (United States) >> > > -- > Met vriendelijke Groet, > > Simon Claessen > drukknop.nl From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Nov 27 23:18:12 2014 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 06:18:12 +0100 Subject: Apple Network Server, Anyone seen one? In-Reply-To: <1F5C1F09-1C97-4B96-8BF5-3C475DD615EA@aracnet.com> References: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> <1F5C1F09-1C97-4B96-8BF5-3C475DD615EA@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20141128051812.GA11879@Update.UU.SE> A fellow over at nekochan has one: http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ans/ /P On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:46:26AM -0800, Zane Healy wrote: > I know that Cameron Kaiser has, or at least had, one or more at home. Is he still on the list, in thinking about it, I can't remember when I last saw a post from him. > > Zane > > > On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:57 AM, Alex McWhirter wrote: > > > This were produced by apple in the mid 90?s. The ran AIX and were pretty large machines. I?ve been looking for one for a couple of months to no avail. Considering they were only produced for a year should i assume that they have all be crushed? > From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 28 01:22:16 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 08:22:16 +0100 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> Message-ID: <547822A8.3030601@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-28 06:51, drlegendre . wrote: > Hey Chuck, > > > > On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> This goes counter to my experience. Any utensil that passes the "magnet >> test" will work; any that don't, don't. >> >> I've never found an exception to this. >> >> > In retrospect, my comments may have been a bit pedantic - as you have > found, the 'magnet test' is more than likely an effective method for > selecting compatible cookware. > > The point of my post, was that it's not actually the presence or lack of > ferromagnetic characteristics which are responsible for the compatibility > or incompatibility of the given cookware. Let me see if I can explain this > without further muddying the waters: > > I think we all understand that induction heating is the result of eddy > current propagation within the cookware - this is one of the reasons that > it's more efficient than traditional contact-coupled resistive elements > operated off AC mains power. But like any _resistive_ heating element, the > cookware must offer sufficient _resistance_ to the impressed currents to > produce any heating effects - that's just I^2*R. > > In the case of most copper, antimagnetic stainless or aluminum vessels, the > eddy currents actually propagate a bit too well - that is, the effective > resistance of the imposed current path is too low for any useful ohmic > heating to take place. In other words, the currents flow, but the voltage > drops are inconsequential. > > Or that's how I understand it. As ever, I await my ongoing education.. ;-) That sounds a bit weird, as I would expect the current resistance in iron should be pretty low as well. Or is it really way higher than in copper or aluminium? The magnetic properties seems to be the common factor in my experience as well. Not sure how they relate to electric resistance... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 28 01:23:25 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 01:23:25 -0600 Subject: Relay question Message-ID: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> I know this is not an electrical forum, but I thought perhaps someone has seen what I am looking for. For an application, I am looking for a relay that is connected to 12V through a switch, with the switch voltage also going to the middle of a SPDT relay contacts. * If I energize the latch once, for the time the button in pressed, the relay flips "on" and the middle relay contact sends power to the NO contact * If the energize the latch a second time, for the time the button is pressed, the relay flips "off" and the middle relay contact sends power to the NC contact. The circuit works with an open relay of the kind they used to use in garage doors (push button once, and door goes up, second press makes it go down...) But, we need a sealed relay to beat the weather (it's for a lineman's bucket truck we own). Simulating this with some electronics and two relays won't work (well, it would work, but it's for my father, and he really wants a electrical/mechanical relay solution, like he has, but weathertight). I thought for sure there was such a thing as a D-type FF in relay format, but all of the magnetic and mechanical latching relays I see online use two separate coils to operate, which means two switches, and that won't work (no more signal paths available in this application). I must not know what to call what I am looking for, and was hoping someone had a better name for this type of thing or a suggestion of where to look... Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From brian at marstella.net Fri Nov 28 01:39:29 2014 From: brian at marstella.net (Brian Marstella) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 02:39:29 -0500 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <547826B1.2020301@marstella.net> Jim, You'll probably need to search for a magnetic latching relay. I've found a number of examples from Schneider, Rockwell, etc. However, the ones I've found so far all have 24 VDC coils, not 12 VDC. If you look around some of the electronics suppliers and/or eBay, you might come across the exact model you need. If I see one, I'll forward the info along. Regards, Brian. On 11/28/2014 02:23 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > I know this is not an electrical forum, but I thought perhaps someone > has seen what I am looking for. > > For an application, I am looking for a relay that is connected to 12V > through a switch, with the switch voltage also going to the middle of > a SPDT relay contacts. > > * If I energize the latch once, for the time the button in pressed, > the relay flips "on" and the middle relay contact sends power to the > NO contact > * If the energize the latch a second time, for the time the button is > pressed, the relay flips "off" and the middle relay contact sends > power to the NC contact. > > The circuit works with an open relay of the kind they used to use in > garage doors (push button once, and door goes up, second press makes > it go down...) But, we need a sealed relay to beat the weather (it's > for a lineman's bucket truck we own). > > Simulating this with some electronics and two relays won't work (well, > it would work, but it's for my father, and he really wants a > electrical/mechanical relay solution, like he has, but weathertight). > > I thought for sure there was such a thing as a D-type FF in relay > format, but all of the magnetic and mechanical latching relays I see > online use two separate coils to operate, which means two switches, > and that won't work (no more signal paths available in this application). > > I must not know what to call what I am looking for, and was hoping > someone had a better name for this type of thing or a suggestion of > where to look... > > Jim > From brian at marstella.net Fri Nov 28 01:51:56 2014 From: brian at marstella.net (Brian Marstella) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 02:51:56 -0500 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5478299C.5000603@marstella.net> Here's one to take a look at, an NTE7742. http://store.acradiosupplyinc.com/nterly7742relay-dpdt15a12vdc.aspx They have the cut-sheet for it as well, maybe this will help. Brian. On 11/28/2014 02:23 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > I know this is not an electrical forum, but I thought perhaps someone > has seen what I am looking for. > > For an application, I am looking for a relay that is connected to 12V > through a switch, with the switch voltage also going to the middle of > a SPDT relay contacts. > > * If I energize the latch once, for the time the button in pressed, > the relay flips "on" and the middle relay contact sends power to the > NO contact > * If the energize the latch a second time, for the time the button is > pressed, the relay flips "off" and the middle relay contact sends > power to the NC contact. > > The circuit works with an open relay of the kind they used to use in > garage doors (push button once, and door goes up, second press makes > it go down...) But, we need a sealed relay to beat the weather (it's > for a lineman's bucket truck we own). > > Simulating this with some electronics and two relays won't work (well, > it would work, but it's for my father, and he really wants a > electrical/mechanical relay solution, like he has, but weathertight). > > I thought for sure there was such a thing as a D-type FF in relay > format, but all of the magnetic and mechanical latching relays I see > online use two separate coils to operate, which means two switches, > and that won't work (no more signal paths available in this application). > > I must not know what to call what I am looking for, and was hoping > someone had a better name for this type of thing or a suggestion of > where to look... > > Jim > From lists at loomcom.com Fri Nov 28 01:10:35 2014 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 01:10:35 -0600 Subject: AT&T 3B2 ROMs? Message-ID: <20141128071035.GA14646@loomcom.com> All, Does anybody have binary or hex dumps of the (E)PROMs from any AT&T 3B2 variant? I would be very interested in examining them if you do. I'm looking especially for any (E)PROMs from the 3B2 Model 400 or the 3B2 Model 600, but frankly I'd be happy to get all and any I can find. -Seth From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Nov 28 01:41:29 2014 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 08:41:29 +0100 Subject: Apple Network Server, Anyone seen one? In-Reply-To: <20141128051812.GA11879@Update.UU.SE> References: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> <1F5C1F09-1C97-4B96-8BF5-3C475DD615EA@aracnet.com> <20141128051812.GA11879@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20141128074129.GA20425@Update.UU.SE> And I now realize I just linked to Cameron Kaiser :) Sorry Zane. /P On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 06:18:12AM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > A fellow over at nekochan has one: > > http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ans/ > > /P > > On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:46:26AM -0800, Zane Healy wrote: > > I know that Cameron Kaiser has, or at least had, one or more at home. Is he still on the list, in thinking about it, I can't remember when I last saw a post from him. > > > > Zane > > > > > > On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:57 AM, Alex McWhirter wrote: > > > > > This were produced by apple in the mid 90?s. The ran AIX and were pretty large machines. I?ve been looking for one for a couple of months to no avail. Considering they were only produced for a year should i assume that they have all be crushed? > > From bear at typewritten.org Fri Nov 28 02:11:52 2014 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 00:11:52 -0800 Subject: IBM RT - AOS / SAUTIL In-Reply-To: <547775D4.8060004@gmail.com> References: <547775D4.8060004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1AF2DF91-EC82-4B4D-B04C-BF0171E00B14@typewritten.org> On Nov 27, 2014, at 11:04 AM, Jonathan Chote wrote: > I'm installing a new ESDI drive in my 6150 Model 135. I've mostly been researching the old Usenet group and the FAQ to work bits out but now I've become stuck. It seems the fail-safe trick to getting non-IBM ESDI units working is to perform a blind format using the AOS SAUTIL disk. Does anybody have access to this disk or disk image or know where I can find one? Contact me off list and we'll get you squared away. ok bear. -- until further notice From bear at typewritten.org Fri Nov 28 02:14:50 2014 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 00:14:50 -0800 Subject: Apple Network Server, Anyone seen one? In-Reply-To: <20141128051812.GA11879@Update.UU.SE> References: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> <1F5C1F09-1C97-4B96-8BF5-3C475DD615EA@aracnet.com> <20141128051812.GA11879@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <6777384F-BDAC-4048-888A-328E3250AE40@typewritten.org> On Nov 27, 2014, at 9:18 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:46:26AM -0800, Zane Healy wrote: >> I know that Cameron Kaiser has, or at least had, one or more at home. Is he still on the list, in thinking about it, I can't remember when I last saw a post from him. > > A fellow over at nekochan has one: > > http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ans/ That is the aforementioned Cameron Kaiser. I also have one. More than a few are out there. ok bear. -- until further notice From jacob at dahl-pind.dk Fri Nov 28 09:26:09 2014 From: jacob at dahl-pind.dk (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:26:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: 36bit still in use ? Message-ID: Given the certain overlap of interests some of you might have seen this, please bare over with me. On the talk of copyright status on TOPS-10/20 on the hecnet maillist, it was hinted at tops-20 where used embedded for routers from XKL, running on reimplemnted pdp10 hardware. Unfortunately I do not have much details. I was at the Living Computer Museum and talked with RIch Alderson, who used to work at XKL. And he showed me a newer generation router from XKL, opened up, at LCM. And they use a PDP-10 on a chip, and it was actually running TOPS-20, and I could play around at the EXEC level in there. Findes it somewhat hard to imagine anyone would take 36bit architectur and build a router around it. But it does seem posible they really do, I visisted ftp://xkl.com/pub/download/ tar xvf DarkStar_v3.0.0.tgz and looking in upgrade-example.txt I sees things as System Processor (XKL-2) 2. XMH-1 (256MW), Testing: SDdAa, on line at LPN o0 Reading 0704 pages 0704000 words read in 36 bit mode .. Its alive! who would have though that -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 From scaron at umich.edu Fri Nov 28 09:41:56 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 10:41:56 -0500 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Someone in here (sorry forgot attribution) was just mentioning on another thread maybe a week or two ago, that the guts of the TOAD-1 product live on as the CPU of the WDM devices that XKL now produces. But I never considered trying to find a firmware image and verify it!! So it's true! Cool. I suppose if you spent all that time engineering that CPU implementation, you'd want to amortize that effort as much as possible... Sometimes very interesting things live behind the curtains in the "embedded" space! Best, Sean On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: > > Given the certain overlap of interests some of you might have seen this, > please bare over with me. > > On the talk of copyright status on TOPS-10/20 on the hecnet maillist, it > was hinted at tops-20 where used embedded for routers from XKL, running on > reimplemnted pdp10 hardware. > > > Unfortunately I do not have much details. I was at the Living Computer > Museum and talked with RIch Alderson, who used to work at XKL. And he > showed me a > newer generation router from XKL, opened up, at LCM. And they use a PDP-10 > on a chip, and it was actually running TOPS-20, and I could play around at > the > EXEC level in there. > > > Findes it somewhat hard to imagine anyone would take 36bit architectur and > build a router around it. > But it does seem posible they really do, I visisted > ftp://xkl.com/pub/download/ > > tar xvf DarkStar_v3.0.0.tgz > and looking in upgrade-example.txt > > I sees things as System Processor (XKL-2) > 2. XMH-1 (256MW), Testing: SDdAa, on line at LPN o0 > Reading 0704 pages > 0704000 words read in 36 bit mode > > .. > > Its alive! who would have though that > > > -- > Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Nov 28 09:44:13 2014 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:44:13 +0100 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 04:26:09PM +0100, Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: > > > Unfortunately I do not have much details. I was at the Living > Computer Museum and talked with RIch Alderson, who used to work at > XKL. And he showed me a > newer generation router from XKL, opened up, at LCM. And they use a > PDP-10 on a chip, and it was actually running TOPS-20, and I could > play around at the > EXEC level in there. > The system refered to above is visible next to the TOAD-1 in this video clip, arround 30 seconds in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We3BEaiz194 I've know for a while that it's been a 36 bit machine under the hood but I was told that it is limited in some way, perhaps not a full pager. It would be fun to get some details. (And if you can get one for yourself of course). Regards, Pontus. From scaron at umich.edu Fri Nov 28 10:13:41 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 11:13:41 -0500 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> References: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Whaaa? That's actually something a little bit different; I didn't even know there was such a thing as a TOAD-2. Does anyone here know how many units of the TOAD-2 were ever sold? Who bought them? That board looks so close to mini-ITX form factor... they should start selling them bare... it would look great next to my Atom boxes!! Best, Sean On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 10:44 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 04:26:09PM +0100, Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: > > > > > > Unfortunately I do not have much details. I was at the Living > > Computer Museum and talked with RIch Alderson, who used to work at > > XKL. And he showed me a > > newer generation router from XKL, opened up, at LCM. And they use a > > PDP-10 on a chip, and it was actually running TOPS-20, and I could > > play around at the > > EXEC level in there. > > > > The system refered to above is visible next to the TOAD-1 in this video > clip, arround 30 seconds in. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We3BEaiz194 > > I've know for a while that it's been a 36 bit machine under the hood but > I was told that it is limited in some way, perhaps not a full pager. It > would be fun to get some details. (And if you can get one for yourself > of course). > > Regards, > Pontus. > From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 28 13:09:35 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 20:09:35 +0100 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: References: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5478C86F.5010009@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-28 17:13, Sean Caron wrote: > Whaaa? That's actually something a little bit different; I didn't even know > there was such a thing as a TOAD-2. > > Does anyone here know how many units of the TOAD-2 were ever sold? Who > bought them? > > That board looks so close to mini-ITX form factor... they should start > selling them bare... it would look great next to my Atom boxes!! As far as I understood it, they are still selling them. Johnny > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 10:44 AM, Pontus Pihlgren > wrote: > >> On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 04:26:09PM +0100, Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: >>> >>> >>> Unfortunately I do not have much details. I was at the Living >>> Computer Museum and talked with RIch Alderson, who used to work at >>> XKL. And he showed me a >>> newer generation router from XKL, opened up, at LCM. And they use a >>> PDP-10 on a chip, and it was actually running TOPS-20, and I could >>> play around at the >>> EXEC level in there. >>> >> >> The system refered to above is visible next to the TOAD-1 in this video >> clip, arround 30 seconds in. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We3BEaiz194 >> >> I've know for a while that it's been a 36 bit machine under the hood but >> I was told that it is limited in some way, perhaps not a full pager. It >> would be fun to get some details. (And if you can get one for yourself >> of course). >> >> Regards, >> Pontus. >> -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 13:48:37 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 13:48:37 -0600 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi Chuck, On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 12:53 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Were this a purely resistive effect, a sheet of very thin copper foil or a > graphite disk would also be great candidates for induction heating, which > (I can verify this by experimentation) they aren't. isn't. Of course, the > frequency has an effect as well. It's interesting that copper foil won't heat up, because per my understanding aluminum foil certainly will - don't the manufacturers warn against using it? So we have a situation wherein aluminum pots aren't at all suitable for cooking, but yet foils of the same (well, a very similar) metal will burn right through. To me this means that it should be possible to design a purely aluminum, non-magnetic vessel of some particular shape and thickness that does more-or-less work on an induction cooker. And I think this illustrates my point that ferromagnetic quality is more of an ancillary issue, rather than a primary requirement. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 28 14:11:59 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 12:11:59 -0800 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> On 11/28/2014 11:48 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > So we have a situation wherein aluminum pots aren't at all suitable for > cooking, but yet foils of the same (well, a very similar) metal will burn > right through. To me this means that it should be possible to design a > purely aluminum, non-magnetic vessel of some particular shape and thickness > that does more-or-less work on an induction cooker. Okay, I grabbed some aluminum foil from yesterday's turkey roast (FWIW, the "dry brining with herbs under the skin" works wonderfully). Interesting effect--the foil must be in close proximity to the coils to heat up--and it does indeed do that very quickly. Move it an 1/8" away and the effect is negligible. What's interesting is to see the foil "jump" when power is applied. So it seems that iron does play a part in providing a magnetic path. Carrying this on further, I have some 18/10 pots with a slab of aluminum (as a heat spreader) laminated into the bottoms. Nada, zip. I also have an 18/10 double boiler whose bottom is a hunk of copper bonded to the steel. Again, nothing. Hmmm, I smell some more experiments. I have several thicknesses of brass sheet (used as shim stock) down to about 5 mills. It will be interesting to see if the 5 mill is thin enough to produce a heating effect--and if backing by a thicker metal interferes with the effect. -Chuck From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Nov 28 14:14:23 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 20:14:23 +0000 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: References: <20141127004321.B693618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0C1F1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0FD69@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Eric Smith Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 6:55 PM On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 6:27 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> All KL10-based systems have RH20s. The front end 11/40 has an RH11, >> and one disk (at least) has to be dual-ported between the front end >> and the -10. > All KL10s have RH20 internal channels except the KL10-A of the > DECsystem-1080. The 1080 was intended as a drop-in replacement for a > KA10 or KI10, so the system would already have external standalone > RH10 channels. OK, I wasn't sure about that. Thanks for keeping me honest! > Similarly all KL10s have cache memory except the DECSYSTEM-2040. Cache > modules could be added to the -2040 turning it into a -2050. Funny story, told me by my former manager at Stanford, who had previously worked as a consultant for CitiCorp (CitiBank???) in NYC. They were running a 2040 to provide some timesharing services. They decided to upgrade to a 2050, and talked about it to in the presence of an operator who like to show off for customers how with it he was by handing out gossip from the systems folks. They announced a weekend down time for the upgrade, along with a revised pricing schedule for services (the more capable 2050 allowing them to charge more). A customer asked, on a public bulletin board, what was the difference between the current 2040 and the coming 2050. The operator knew the difference from overhearing things around the data center. His answer? "Cash." Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 28 14:23:20 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 12:23:20 -0800 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> On 11/27/2014 11:23 PM, Jim Brain wrote: I'm trying to wrap my mind around the problem. Does this describe it? You want a push-on push-off circuit using only mechanical relays. Am I reading you correctly? --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 14:37:07 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 13:37:07 -0700 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0FD69@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20141127004321.B693618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0C1F1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0FD69@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 1:14 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Similarly all KL10s have cache memory except the DECSYSTEM-2040. Cache >> modules could be added to the -2040 turning it into a -2050. > > Funny story, told me by my former manager at Stanford, who had previously > worked as a consultant for CitiCorp (CitiBank???) in NYC. > > They were running a 2040 to provide some timesharing services. They > decided to upgrade to a 2050, and talked about it to in the presence of > an operator who like to show off for customers how with it he was by > handing out gossip from the systems folks. > > They announced a weekend down time for the upgrade, along with a revised > pricing schedule for services (the more capable 2050 allowing them to > charge more). A customer asked, on a public bulletin board, what was the > difference between the current 2040 and the coming 2050. > > The operator knew the difference from overhearing things around the data > center. His answer? > > "Cash." Great story! I've heard from a former field service engineer that some 2040 sites managed to buy cache modules as service spares, which was much less expensive than the official 2050 upgrade, and install them "when no one was looking". They had to either remove them before field service showed up, or have a field service engineer willing to look the other way. The other schenanigan he told me about was an educational institution that had multiple of the same model of PDP-11 systems. They kept only one of them on a service contract, and would have students do board-level fault isolation and swap all the failed modules into a single machine. They'd sometimes wait until that machine had quite a few faulty modules before calling for service, which made it extremely difficult for FS to fix it until they realized what was going on. FS responded by marking the CPU serial number on all the modules in that machine, so on future calls if the numbers didn't match, they wouldn't touch it. The client was told that if they wanted to do their own service they should not renew the service contract, and should just buy service spares themselves. (Apparently PDP-11 service spares were quite a bit easier to purchase than LCG spares.) My friend quit DEC when the position was changed from field service engineer to field service technician at some point in the early 1980s. Apparently at that point they only wanted trained monkeys that would follow a service flowchart, and not use their brains, and only wanted to pay commensurately. That was reportedly yet another factor in some PDP-10 customers seeking a different computer vendor rather than going with the official migration path to VAX. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Nov 28 15:01:02 2014 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 22:01:02 +0100 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: References: <20141127004321.B693618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0C1F1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0FD69@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20141128210102.GA14275@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 01:37:07PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > > I've heard from a former field service engineer that some 2040 sites > managed to buy cache modules as service spares, which was much less > expensive than the official 2050 upgrade, and install them "when no > one was looking". They had to either remove them before field service > showed up, or have a field service engineer willing to look the other > way. > Fun reading tonight :) Here is another story. The computer science department at Uppsala University started out with a 2020 and soon decided that they needed a bigger machine. But getting a new computer required a decision from higher up and was for one reason or another not easy to get. However they were allowed to buy upgrades. So the ordered a 2060 "upgrade" for their 2020 and pursuaded digital to make sure all paperwork only mentioned an upgrade. It was successful and when upgrade day came they rolled the 2020 out and the 2060 in. This story has only been told to me so might missed some detail. And if I told it before :) sorry. /P From chrise at pobox.com Fri Nov 28 15:21:15 2014 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 15:21:15 -0600 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141128212115.GM2076@n0jcf.net> On Friday (11/28/2014 at 12:23PM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/27/2014 11:23 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > > I'm trying to wrap my mind around the problem. Does this describe it? > > You want a push-on push-off circuit using only mechanical relays. > > Am I reading you correctly? How 'bout this, http://s443.photobucket.com/user/ewyltj/media/push_switch.jpg.html They show a 24V supply and relay coil but I see no reason a 12V supply and coil couldn't be substituted. The RC network is there to basically give you "opposite polarity" each time you press the button. It's charged to roughly the supply voltage when the relay is unenergized and when you press the button, dumps that into the coil to pull in the relay. Then, while the relay is energized, the RC network decays to close to 0V and so when you press the button again, it pulls the topside of the relay coil to 0V, dropping out the relay. The RC network is the memory part of your "D flip-flop" :-) You will need a DPDT relay though so that the other set of contacts can control your load. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 15:31:59 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 15:31:59 -0600 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > What's interesting is to see the foil "jump" when power is applied. > Hmm.. that +is+ kind of interesting. Sounds like the foil is motoring, behaving like an armature until the turn-on current in the cooktop settles. > Hmmm, I smell some more experiments. Do they smell like turkey drippings? ;-) From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 15:38:34 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 14:38:34 -0700 Subject: KL-10B in DEC-20 [was RE: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <20141128210102.GA14275@Update.UU.SE> References: <20141127004321.B693618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0C1F1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D0FD69@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20141128210102.GA14275@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > However they were allowed to buy upgrades. So the ordered a 2060 > "upgrade" for their 2020 and pursuaded digital to make sure all > paperwork only mentioned an upgrade. It was successful and when > upgrade day came they rolled the 2020 out and the 2060 in. In the telecom industry, that's known as a "forklift upgrade", and it's become a major selling point of equipment if it is claimed to be upgradeable without that. How well that really works is an open question: 1) The non-forklift upgrade sometimes involves replacing everything inside the box, so all that you're actually keeping is the chassis, backplane, and power supplies. Sometimes not even the backplane, if it can't support the necessary bandwidth for the upgrade. Sometimes not even the power supplies. 2) Even when the non-forklift upgrade doesn't require wholesale replacement of the guts of the box, sometimes the cost is still very close to the full replacement. From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 28 16:02:10 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:02:10 -0600 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <20141128212115.GM2076@n0jcf.net> References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> <20141128212115.GM2076@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <5478F0E2.3070507@jbrain.com> On 11/28/2014 3:21 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Friday (11/28/2014 at 12:23PM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 11/27/2014 11:23 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> >> I'm trying to wrap my mind around the problem. Does this describe it? >> >> You want a push-on push-off circuit using only mechanical relays. >> >> Am I reading you correctly? > How 'bout this, > > http://s443.photobucket.com/user/ewyltj/media/push_switch.jpg.html > > They show a 24V supply and relay coil but I see no reason a 12V supply > and coil couldn't be substituted. > > The RC network is there to basically give you "opposite polarity" each > time you press the button. It's charged to roughly the supply voltage > when the relay is unenergized and when you press the button, dumps that > into the coil to pull in the relay. > > Then, while the relay is energized, the RC network decays to close to > 0V and so when you press the button again, it pulls the topside of the > relay coil to 0V, dropping out the relay. > > The RC network is the memory part of your "D flip-flop" :-) > > You will need a DPDT relay though so that the other set of contacts can > control your load. > > Chris I looked it it, but it doesn't seem to support the 3rd state (do nothing). JIm -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From scaron at umich.edu Fri Nov 28 10:46:15 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 11:46:15 -0500 Subject: Apple Network Server, Anyone seen one? In-Reply-To: <20141128074129.GA20425@Update.UU.SE> References: <6358F384-087A-4ED8-A2AA-32F7424256B1@mojovapes.net> <1F5C1F09-1C97-4B96-8BF5-3C475DD615EA@aracnet.com> <20141128051812.GA11879@Update.UU.SE> <20141128074129.GA20425@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Neat site, thanks for the link. The MkLinux/WGS 9150 page really brings back some memories. I ran MkLinux on my PM 7200/90 for a long time when I was in high school... first UNIX implementation I ever had running on my personally owned equipment! (it took a little longer, living in an all-Mac household). Still got the original media for it. This was a few years yet before the tap really started running on the golden age of UNIX workstation collecting and Sun, DEC, SGI, etc became available to me. I'll never forget the excitement of running through the install and actually booting up my own "UNIX" workstation for the first time. Back about then I actually had the opportunity to pick up a WGS 9150 but passed on it; I didn't really consider it to be noteworthy at the time. I did grab the WGS 95 that was sitting next to it, though (and I've still got it). Best, Sean On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 2:41 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > And I now realize I just linked to Cameron Kaiser :) Sorry Zane. > > /P > > On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 06:18:12AM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > A fellow over at nekochan has one: > > > > http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ans/ > > > > /P > > > > On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:46:26AM -0800, Zane Healy wrote: > > > I know that Cameron Kaiser has, or at least had, one or more at home. > Is he still on the list, in thinking about it, I can't remember when I last > saw a post from him. > > > > > > Zane > > > > > > > > > On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:57 AM, Alex McWhirter < > alexmcwhirter at mojovapes.net> wrote: > > > > > > > This were produced by apple in the mid 90?s. The ran AIX and were > pretty large machines. I?ve been looking for one for a couple of months to > no avail. Considering they were only produced for a year should i assume > that they have all be crushed? > > > > From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 28 16:06:21 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:06:21 -0600 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5478F1DD.1000103@jbrain.com> On 11/28/2014 2:23 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/27/2014 11:23 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > > I'm trying to wrap my mind around the problem. Does this describe it? > > You want a push-on push-off circuit using only mechanical relays. > > Am I reading you correctly? > > --Chuck > > hmm, not exactly.... To translate into electronics, it'd be like: * Take a D FF * hook it up in std divide by 2 mode (i.e., !Q = D) * Take Q and attach it to a latch input with active enable line * Take latch enable line and hook to CLK So, on first CLK, the FF goes to 1, and the Latch allows 1 to flow out of the unit When CLK goes LOW, output goes to HiZ When second CLK arrives, output goes low When CLK goes low, HiZ Output = 1 (hydraulic motor send lift up) Output = HiZ (hydraulic motor off) Output = 0 (hydraulic motor send lift down) Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From chrise at pobox.com Fri Nov 28 16:18:03 2014 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:18:03 -0600 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <5478F0E2.3070507@jbrain.com> References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> <20141128212115.GM2076@n0jcf.net> <5478F0E2.3070507@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20141128221803.GO2076@n0jcf.net> On Friday (11/28/2014 at 04:02PM -0600), Jim Brain wrote: > > > I looked it it, but it doesn't seem to support the 3rd state (do nothing). oh-- sorry, I missed that requirement. Probably more like a 3-step Strowger switch then ;-) -- Chris Elmquist From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Nov 28 16:19:33 2014 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 14:19:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <5478C86F.5010009@update.uu.se> References: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> <5478C86F.5010009@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-11-28 17:13, Sean Caron wrote: >> Whaaa? That's actually something a little bit different; I didn't even know >> there was such a thing as a TOAD-2. >> >> Does anyone here know how many units of the TOAD-2 were ever sold? Who >> bought them? >> >> That board looks so close to mini-ITX form factor... they should start >> selling them bare... it would look great next to my Atom boxes!! > > As far as I understood it, they are still selling them. How does one obtain one of these boards? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 28 16:28:17 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 23:28:17 +0100 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: References: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> <5478C86F.5010009@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5478F701.1050803@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-28 23:19, David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2014-11-28 17:13, Sean Caron wrote: >>> Whaaa? That's actually something a little bit different; I didn't >>> even know >>> there was such a thing as a TOAD-2. >>> >>> Does anyone here know how many units of the TOAD-2 were ever sold? Who >>> bought them? >>> >>> That board looks so close to mini-ITX form factor... they should start >>> selling them bare... it would look great next to my Atom boxes!! >> >> As far as I understood it, they are still selling them. > > How does one obtain one of these boards? Boards? It's a group of products for networks... If you deduct the name of the product from the name of the firmware (Darkstar), you can see a whole bunch of products at www.xkl.com that are "Darkstar". I don't know if all of them use the TOAD-2, but it is possible... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 16:38:51 2014 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:38:51 -0600 Subject: Facit 4046/4047 Reader-Punch Manual Available Message-ID: I scanned in my two manuals for the Facit 4046/4047 that I have and gave them to Al at bitsavers. He got them uploaded the other day (thanks again, Al!), so feel free to check them out. Setting up this reader-punch without it is a big pain (I've tried). http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/facit/ Enjoy, Kyle W4GNU From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 16:40:41 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 17:40:41 -0500 Subject: Relay question References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> <5478F1DD.1000103@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <3FA90D902E0446AEAA077F5CA541E432@310e2> Why not just do this the simple, usual way for an application like yours: a pair of nice, sealed, heavy duty industrial pushbuttons marked UP and DOWN, or even a single button with a nice heavy duty toggle switch similarly marked? Personally, I'd be a little leery pushing that button without knowing which way the lift is going to move when I do... m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brain" To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 5:06 PM Subject: Re: Relay question > On 11/28/2014 2:23 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 11/27/2014 11:23 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> >> I'm trying to wrap my mind around the problem. Does this describe it? >> >> You want a push-on push-off circuit using only mechanical relays. >> >> Am I reading you correctly? >> >> --Chuck >> >> > hmm, not exactly.... > > To translate into electronics, it'd be like: > > * Take a D FF > * hook it up in std divide by 2 mode (i.e., !Q = D) > * Take Q and attach it to a latch input with active enable line > * Take latch enable line and hook to CLK > > > So, on first CLK, the FF goes to 1, and the Latch allows 1 to flow out of > the unit > When CLK goes LOW, output goes to HiZ > When second CLK arrives, output goes low > When CLK goes low, HiZ > > Output = 1 (hydraulic motor send lift up) > > Output = HiZ (hydraulic motor off) > Output = 0 (hydraulic motor send lift down) > > > Jim > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Fri Nov 28 16:09:16 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 22:09:16 +0000 (WET) Subject: Relay question Message-ID: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> On 28/11/2014 at 02:23, Jim Brain wrote: > I know this is not an electrical forum, but I thought perhaps someone > has seen what I am looking for. > > For an application, I am looking for a relay that is connected to 12V > through a switch, with the switch voltage also going to the middle of > a SPDT relay contacts. > > * If I energize the latch once, for the time the button in pressed, > the relay flips "on" and the middle relay contact sends power to the > NO contact > * If the energize the latch a second time, for the time the button is > pressed, the relay flips "off" and the middle relay contact sends > power to the NC contact. > > The circuit works with an open relay of the kind they used to use in > garage doors (push button once, and door goes up, second press makes > it go down...) But, we need a sealed relay to beat the weather (it's > for a lineman's bucket truck we own). > > Simulating this with some electronics and two relays won't work (well, > it would work, but it's for my father, and he really wants a > electrical/mechanical relay solution, like he has, but weathertight). > > I thought for sure there was such a thing as a D-type FF in relay > format, but all of the magnetic and mechanical latching relays I see > online use two separate coils to operate, which means two switches, > and that won't work (no more signal paths available in this application). > > I must not know what to call what I am looking for, and was hoping > someone had a better name for this type of thing or a suggestion of > where to look... > > Jim > I have come across a relay like this controlling the door of a bus. One push to make switch, push once to open, push once to close. The bus schematics called it an "impulse relay". This is East of the Atlantic - who knows if they they call it the same thing where you are. The one I came across was 24V rather that 12V too. (There were no classic computer systems on the bus, unless you count the radio system which allegedly tracked the bus location and radioed it back to the controller. It counted pulses from the speedometer/odometer tachogenerator and did 4 bit BCD arithmatic on them using 4000 series CMOS.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 28 16:47:57 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:47:57 -0600 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <3FA90D902E0446AEAA077F5CA541E432@310e2> References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> <5478F1DD.1000103@jbrain.com> <3FA90D902E0446AEAA077F5CA541E432@310e2> Message-ID: <5478FB9D.1030702@jbrain.com> On 11/28/2014 4:40 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Why not just do this the simple, usual way for an application like > yours: a pair of nice, sealed, heavy duty industrial pushbuttons > marked UP and DOWN, or even a single button with a nice heavy duty > toggle switch similarly marked? For safety, the buttons on the lift (in the bucket), are air switches, with the actual electrical portion down below. I have not seen the unit, but my father claims there is no more room for another air line in the boom cable trace, so any more switches would have to be wireless, or something else. > > Personally, I'd be a little leery pushing that button without knowing > which way the lift is going to move when I do... I think that's why he wants the minimum complexity (no solid state, etc.). I agree, there is some risk there, but he is currently happy with the operation using an unsealed relay, I told him surely there existing a sealed version of this thing. Yes, I could happily re-engineer it for him, but just like ill conceived concepts on a vintage machine, I'm being asked to just make the current setup work, not create a new setup. Jim From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 28 16:49:08 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:49:08 -0600 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> On 11/28/2014 4:09 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > I have come across a relay like this controlling the door of a bus. > One push to make switch, push once to open, push once to close. The > bus schematics called it an "impulse relay". This is East of the > Atlantic - who knows if they they call it the same thing where you > are. The one I came across was 24V rather that 12V too. (There were no > classic computer systems on the bus, unless you count the radio system > which allegedly tracked the bus location and radioed it back to the > controller. It counted pulses from the speedometer/odometer > tachogenerator and did 4 bit BCD arithmatic on them using 4000 series > CMOS.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. I'll see if that set of words helps me. Google was not all that useful last night. I'd like to find something and get it here within the week, as they are coming back, and I'm hoping to test it out before I give it to him to install in the unit. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From scaron at umich.edu Fri Nov 28 16:49:52 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 17:49:52 -0500 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <5478F701.1050803@update.uu.se> References: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> <5478C86F.5010009@update.uu.se> <5478F701.1050803@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Sorry, I was just alluding to the "board" inside the ~1U device labeled as "XKL TOAD-2" in the video at around 0:30 in. Watching it a second time through, however, it appears that the TOAD-2 box shown in the video actually contains two discrete boards! I don't think that's an off-the-shelf product, LOL. I assume the board is a common system controller used in their network equipment product line and the TOAD-2 is a one-off; a few system controllers from stock, a chassis with plexiglas lid swapped in and a few extra holes drilled... produced per request of a good customer ;) I'm wondering now, do you think the TOAD-2 actually does anything? Or is it just a static display to demonstrate minimization of the PDP-10 over time? Can it run TOPS? Or is it just a router lacking any network interfaces? Best, Sean On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 5:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-11-28 23:19, David Griffith wrote: > >> On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> On 2014-11-28 17:13, Sean Caron wrote: >>> >>>> Whaaa? That's actually something a little bit different; I didn't >>>> even know >>>> there was such a thing as a TOAD-2. >>>> >>>> Does anyone here know how many units of the TOAD-2 were ever sold? Who >>>> bought them? >>>> >>>> That board looks so close to mini-ITX form factor... they should start >>>> selling them bare... it would look great next to my Atom boxes!! >>>> >>> >>> As far as I understood it, they are still selling them. >>> >> >> How does one obtain one of these boards? >> > > Boards? It's a group of products for networks... > If you deduct the name of the product from the name of the firmware > (Darkstar), you can see a whole bunch of products at www.xkl.com that are > "Darkstar". I don't know if all of them use the TOAD-2, but it is > possible... > > Johnny > > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 28 16:56:44 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 23:56:44 +0100 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: References: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> <5478C86F.5010009@update.uu.se> <5478F701.1050803@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5478FDAC.1020502@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-28 23:49, Sean Caron wrote: > Sorry, I was just alluding to the "board" inside the ~1U device labeled as > "XKL TOAD-2" in the video at around 0:30 in. > > Watching it a second time through, however, it appears that the TOAD-2 box > shown in the video actually contains two discrete boards! > > I don't think that's an off-the-shelf product, LOL. I assume the board is a > common system controller used in their network equipment product line and > the TOAD-2 is a one-off; a few system controllers from stock, a chassis > with plexiglas lid swapped in and a few extra holes drilled... produced per > request of a good customer ;) > > I'm wondering now, do you think the TOAD-2 actually does anything? Or is it > just a static display to demonstrate minimization of the PDP-10 over time? > Can it run TOPS? Or is it just a router lacking any network interfaces? It runs TOPS-20. I've seen and played at the EXEC prompt of the TOAD-2. And XKL are not making these as one-offs. Yes, the one at LCM has been modified for display purposes, with such as the plexiglass top. But if you read the thread, someone actually went to XKL and fetched the firmware upgrade image they provide, and it's clearly for a 36-bit machine. This is the firmware they provide as a general download to customers. This would not make sense if it were, as you suggest, a one-off product. Johnny > > Best, > > Sean > > > > On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 5:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2014-11-28 23:19, David Griffith wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >>> On 2014-11-28 17:13, Sean Caron wrote: >>>> >>>>> Whaaa? That's actually something a little bit different; I didn't >>>>> even know >>>>> there was such a thing as a TOAD-2. >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone here know how many units of the TOAD-2 were ever sold? Who >>>>> bought them? >>>>> >>>>> That board looks so close to mini-ITX form factor... they should start >>>>> selling them bare... it would look great next to my Atom boxes!! >>>>> >>>> >>>> As far as I understood it, they are still selling them. >>>> >>> >>> How does one obtain one of these boards? >>> >> >> Boards? It's a group of products for networks... >> If you deduct the name of the product from the name of the firmware >> (Darkstar), you can see a whole bunch of products at www.xkl.com that are >> "Darkstar". I don't know if all of them use the TOAD-2, but it is >> possible... >> >> Johnny >> >> >> -- >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> || on a psychedelic trip >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol >> -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From scaron at umich.edu Fri Nov 28 17:15:10 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 18:15:10 -0500 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <5478FDAC.1020502@update.uu.se> References: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> <5478C86F.5010009@update.uu.se> <5478F701.1050803@update.uu.se> <5478FDAC.1020502@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Not disputing seeing the evidence of a 36-bit machine behind the curtain in the XKL Darkstar firmware updates but I wasn't clear on whether or not the TOAD-2 board just had some PDP-10 provenance in it, or whether or not it was a full-on clone that could run the historic operating systems. I don't see the TOAD-2 listed a a product on XKL's site anywhere, though. As far as I can tell there's no Darkstar product listed on their site with exactly the same port punch-outs as the TOAD-2. Maybe it's a special order item? Unfortunately it's not in my price range any way you cut it ;) Best, Sean On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-11-28 23:49, Sean Caron wrote: > >> Sorry, I was just alluding to the "board" inside the ~1U device labeled as >> "XKL TOAD-2" in the video at around 0:30 in. >> >> Watching it a second time through, however, it appears that the TOAD-2 box >> shown in the video actually contains two discrete boards! >> >> I don't think that's an off-the-shelf product, LOL. I assume the board is >> a >> common system controller used in their network equipment product line and >> the TOAD-2 is a one-off; a few system controllers from stock, a chassis >> with plexiglas lid swapped in and a few extra holes drilled... produced >> per >> request of a good customer ;) >> >> I'm wondering now, do you think the TOAD-2 actually does anything? Or is >> it >> just a static display to demonstrate minimization of the PDP-10 over time? >> Can it run TOPS? Or is it just a router lacking any network interfaces? >> > > It runs TOPS-20. I've seen and played at the EXEC prompt of the TOAD-2. > And XKL are not making these as one-offs. > Yes, the one at LCM has been modified for display purposes, with such as > the plexiglass top. > > But if you read the thread, someone actually went to XKL and fetched the > firmware upgrade image they provide, and it's clearly for a 36-bit machine. > This is the firmware they provide as a general download to customers. > > This would not make sense if it were, as you suggest, a one-off product. > > Johnny > > > >> Best, >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 5:28 PM, Johnny Billquist >> wrote: >> >> On 2014-11-28 23:19, David Griffith wrote: >>> >>> On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> >>>> On 2014-11-28 17:13, Sean Caron wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Whaaa? That's actually something a little bit different; I didn't >>>>>> even know >>>>>> there was such a thing as a TOAD-2. >>>>>> >>>>>> Does anyone here know how many units of the TOAD-2 were ever sold? Who >>>>>> bought them? >>>>>> >>>>>> That board looks so close to mini-ITX form factor... they should start >>>>>> selling them bare... it would look great next to my Atom boxes!! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> As far as I understood it, they are still selling them. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> How does one obtain one of these boards? >>>> >>>> >>> Boards? It's a group of products for networks... >>> If you deduct the name of the product from the name of the firmware >>> (Darkstar), you can see a whole bunch of products at www.xkl.com that >>> are >>> "Darkstar". I don't know if all of them use the TOAD-2, but it is >>> possible... >>> >>> Johnny >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >>> || on a psychedelic trip >>> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >>> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol >>> >>> > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 28 17:32:30 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 00:32:30 +0100 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: References: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> <5478C86F.5010009@update.uu.se> <5478F701.1050803@update.uu.se> <5478FDAC.1020502@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5479060E.7040804@update.uu.se> On 2014-11-29 00:15, Sean Caron wrote: > Not disputing seeing the evidence of a 36-bit machine behind the curtain in > the XKL Darkstar firmware updates but I wasn't clear on whether or not the > TOAD-2 board just had some PDP-10 provenance in it, or whether or not it > was a full-on clone that could run the historic operating systems. Ah. Well, I've heard claims going both ways. But it apparently atleast runs parts of TOPS-20. If runs the full monty, or just an XKL stripped version I don't know. > I don't see the TOAD-2 listed a a product on XKL's site anywhere, though. > As far as I can tell there's no Darkstar product listed on their site with > exactly the same port punch-outs as the TOAD-2. Maybe it's a special order > item? Unfortunately it's not in my price range any way you cut it ;) I wonder if that specific model shown at LCM is obsolete? I tried finding any good information on XKLs website, but mostly failed. Looking at their technical specifications, it only says: "Architecture Integrated Systems Architecture" Reading the "DarkStar User Guide" don't help much either. Best hint in on page 60, where you see: " Boot> boot file /dxmos/dxmos.exe /recovery [Loading ..............................................................] [File entry-vector is at 7700,,1000, length is 4] [PDVA at 7706,,0] [Free pages from 32170 through 1777777] [Disabling the watchdog timer for this program.] [Setting "Recovery" flag.] [Clearing flags and context] [Starting at 7700,,1000] Starting DXM Operating System (DXMOS), XKL LLC V3.0.0 Mar 6 2013 14:08:57 Copyright (c) 2004-2013 XKL LLC All Rights Reserved This product is protected by copyright and distributed under licenses restricting copying, distribution and decompilation. Initializing hardware... Detecting hardware with Switch board 00085-01 Initializing DarkStar DSM10-5R... Initializing environmental loader: Running startup-gateware Done . . . " File paths looks very unix:y, but the address specifications are so much PDP-10 that I can't help but wonder... (And they taste *so* octal...) Been reading through the Command Reference manual as well, and it definitely smells a lot like EXEC, but once more, file paths looks very unix:y. Anyway, yes, I doubt I would buy one either. I don't have a need, and I'm sure they are not free... Johnny > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2014-11-28 23:49, Sean Caron wrote: >> >>> Sorry, I was just alluding to the "board" inside the ~1U device labeled as >>> "XKL TOAD-2" in the video at around 0:30 in. >>> >>> Watching it a second time through, however, it appears that the TOAD-2 box >>> shown in the video actually contains two discrete boards! >>> >>> I don't think that's an off-the-shelf product, LOL. I assume the board is >>> a >>> common system controller used in their network equipment product line and >>> the TOAD-2 is a one-off; a few system controllers from stock, a chassis >>> with plexiglas lid swapped in and a few extra holes drilled... produced >>> per >>> request of a good customer ;) >>> >>> I'm wondering now, do you think the TOAD-2 actually does anything? Or is >>> it >>> just a static display to demonstrate minimization of the PDP-10 over time? >>> Can it run TOPS? Or is it just a router lacking any network interfaces? >>> >> >> It runs TOPS-20. I've seen and played at the EXEC prompt of the TOAD-2. >> And XKL are not making these as one-offs. >> Yes, the one at LCM has been modified for display purposes, with such as >> the plexiglass top. >> >> But if you read the thread, someone actually went to XKL and fetched the >> firmware upgrade image they provide, and it's clearly for a 36-bit machine. >> This is the firmware they provide as a general download to customers. >> >> This would not make sense if it were, as you suggest, a one-off product. >> >> Johnny >> >> >> >>> Best, >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 5:28 PM, Johnny Billquist >>> wrote: >>> >>> On 2014-11-28 23:19, David Griffith wrote: >>>> >>>> On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 2014-11-28 17:13, Sean Caron wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Whaaa? That's actually something a little bit different; I didn't >>>>>>> even know >>>>>>> there was such a thing as a TOAD-2. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does anyone here know how many units of the TOAD-2 were ever sold? Who >>>>>>> bought them? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That board looks so close to mini-ITX form factor... they should start >>>>>>> selling them bare... it would look great next to my Atom boxes!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> As far as I understood it, they are still selling them. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> How does one obtain one of these boards? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Boards? It's a group of products for networks... >>>> If you deduct the name of the product from the name of the firmware >>>> (Darkstar), you can see a whole bunch of products at www.xkl.com that >>>> are >>>> "Darkstar". I don't know if all of them use the TOAD-2, but it is >>>> possible... >>>> >>>> Johnny >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >>>> || on a psychedelic trip >>>> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >>>> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> || on a psychedelic trip >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol >> -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 28 18:26:52 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:26:52 -0800 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <3FA90D902E0446AEAA077F5CA541E432@310e2> References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> <5478F1DD.1000103@jbrain.com> <3FA90D902E0446AEAA077F5CA541E432@310e2> Message-ID: <547912CC.7020809@sydex.com> On 11/28/2014 02:40 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Why not just do this the simple, usual way for an application like > yours: a pair of nice, sealed, heavy duty industrial pushbuttons marked > UP and DOWN, or even a single button with a nice heavy duty toggle > switch similarly marked? > > Personally, I'd be a little leery pushing that button without knowing > which way the lift is going to move when I do... So really, the sequence of the first 6 pushes of the button are: Push 1: Lift goes up Push 2: Lift stops Push 3: List goes down Push 4: Lift stops Push 5: Lift goes up Right? From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 19:01:57 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 20:01:57 -0500 Subject: Relay question References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> <5478F1DD.1000103@jbrain.com> <3FA90D902E0446AEAA077F5CA541E432@310e2> <5478FB9D.1030702@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <2BAE40E67B8D4FA8AD311A587A4E8BAC@310e2> Can you use a double pole button, use one pole to switch the relay and the other to control the current through the contacts? I.e. every time you push the button the direction reverses but the lift is only energized as long as you hold the button in. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brain" To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 5:47 PM Subject: Re: Relay question > On 11/28/2014 4:40 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> Why not just do this the simple, usual way for an application like yours: >> a pair of nice, sealed, heavy duty industrial pushbuttons marked UP and >> DOWN, or even a single button with a nice heavy duty toggle switch >> similarly marked? > For safety, the buttons on the lift (in the bucket), are air switches, > with the actual electrical portion down below. I have not seen the unit, > but my father claims there is no more room for another air line in the > boom cable trace, so any more switches would have to be wireless, or > something else. > > >> >> Personally, I'd be a little leery pushing that button without knowing >> which way the lift is going to move when I do... > I think that's why he wants the minimum complexity (no solid state, etc.). > I agree, there is some risk there, but he is currently happy with the > operation using an unsealed relay, I told him surely there existing a > sealed version of this thing. > > Yes, I could happily re-engineer it for him, but just like ill conceived > concepts on a vintage machine, I'm being asked to just make the current > setup work, not create a new setup. > > Jim From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 28 19:09:20 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 20:09:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <547912CC.7020809@sydex.com> References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> <5478F1DD.1000103@jbrain.com> <3FA90D902E0446AEAA077F5CA541E432@310e2> <547912CC.7020809@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201411290109.UAA06376@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > So really, the sequence of the first 6 pushes of the button are: > Push 1: Lift goes up > Push 2: Lift stops > Push 3: List goes down > Push 4: Lift stops > Push 5: Lift goes up > Right? Well, as I read it, it was more like Push: lift goes up Release: lift stops Push: lift goes down Release: lift stops Push: lift goes up ...etc /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 28 20:37:22 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 20:37:22 -0600 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <547912CC.7020809@sydex.com> References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> <5478F1DD.1000103@jbrain.com> <3FA90D902E0446AEAA077F5CA541E432@310e2> <547912CC.7020809@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54793162.1000207@jbrain.com> On 11/28/2014 6:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/28/2014 02:40 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> Why not just do this the simple, usual way for an application like >> yours: a pair of nice, sealed, heavy duty industrial pushbuttons marked >> UP and DOWN, or even a single button with a nice heavy duty toggle >> switch similarly marked? >> >> Personally, I'd be a little leery pushing that button without knowing >> which way the lift is going to move when I do... > > So really, the sequence of the first 6 pushes of the button are: > > Push 1: Lift goes up > Push 2: Lift stops > Push 3: List goes down > Push 4: Lift stops > Push 5: Lift goes up > > Right? > > > Hehe, no: Push and Hold #1: lift goes up Let go of switch: stops Push and Hold #2: lift goes down Let Go of switch: stops repeat. The CLK signal (as it were) length determines how long the motor engages in the direction selected. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 28 20:39:59 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 20:39:59 -0600 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <201411290109.UAA06376@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> <5478F1DD.1000103@jbrain.com> <3FA90D902E0446AEAA077F5CA541E432@310e2> <547912CC.7020809@sydex.com> <201411290109.UAA06376@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <547931FF.5080208@jbrain.com> On 11/28/2014 7:09 PM, Mouse wrote: > Well, as I read it, it was more like > > Push: lift goes up > Release: lift stops > Push: lift goes down > Release: lift stops > Push: lift goes up > ...etc Correct: It seems a neat bit of a brain exercise, actually. JIm From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 28 20:40:51 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 20:40:51 -0600 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <2BAE40E67B8D4FA8AD311A587A4E8BAC@310e2> References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> <5478F1DD.1000103@jbrain.com> <3FA90D902E0446AEAA077F5CA541E432@310e2> <5478FB9D.1030702@jbrain.com> <2BAE40E67B8D4FA8AD311A587A4E8BAC@310e2> Message-ID: <54793233.7050408@jbrain.com> On 11/28/2014 7:01 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Can you use a double pole button, use one pole to switch the relay and > the other to control the current through the contacts? I still think I need a latching relay for the "switching" From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 28 20:41:32 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 18:41:32 -0800 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> References: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 2014-Nov-28, at 2:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 11/28/2014 4:09 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> I have come across a relay like this controlling the door of a bus. One push to make switch, push once to open, push once to close. The bus schematics called it an "impulse relay". This is East of the Atlantic - who knows if they they call it the same thing where you are. The one I came across was 24V rather that 12V too. (There were no classic computer systems on the bus, unless you count the radio system which allegedly tracked the bus location and radioed it back to the controller. It counted pulses from the speedometer/odometer tachogenerator and did 4 bit BCD arithmatic on them using 4000 series CMOS.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. > I'll see if that set of words helps me. Google was not all that useful last night. > > I'd like to find something and get it here within the week, as they are coming back, and I'm hoping to test it out before I give it to him to install in the unit. I do have a design that sounds like what you want using 3 standard relays: one D/3PDT & two 4PDT (or, one D/3PDT, one 3PDT, one 4PDT), or probably best to just call it three 4PDT relays. A single NO pushbutton would control the relays, wired to produce a net divide-by-2 effect. Contacts on one of the relays would be used for the ON/OFF, in series with DT contacts on one of the others to direct the UP/DOWN. It's actually on-topic, as it's from a design exercise I did for the Simon relay computer. The (whole) schematic is linked on this page: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/simon/imp.html See the top-left corner of page 2 of the schematic, the ?, ?a & ?b relays. There's a timing diagram in the timing section on the web page, the ? signal would correspond to the button pushes. It might be possible to reduce the number of contacts if one stared at the circuit long enough. It's been a few years since I worked on it, but I did prototype/test that part of the circuit and had it clocking around 18Hz. Relay logic is fun. Perhaps it's more complex than what you'd like to implement, but if it's of interest, or it's not clear, I could put together a more suitable diagram. Perhaps the solenoid-triggerred 'mechanical flip-flop' relay Brian pointed to is closer to what you want. One thing to note about that type is when the system is turned off it can be left in - and hence will power-up in - either of the two states, you wouldn't know initially whether it was going to go up or down, unless you knew from the last time it was operated. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 21:00:32 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 22:00:32 -0500 Subject: Relay question References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> <5478F1DD.1000103@jbrain.com> <3FA90D902E0446AEAA077F5CA541E432@310e2> <5478FB9D.1030702@jbrain.com> <2BAE40E67B8D4FA8AD311A587A4E8BAC@310e2> <54793233.7050408@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5ACCDFC5350A45389500968527FF36DF@310e2> > I still think I need a latching relay for the "switching" Well, yes, the sequencing (impulse) relay that Brian pointed you at: http://store.acradiosupplyinc.com/nterly7742relay-dpdt15a12vdc.aspx There are more 'industrial' versions but they tend to be more expensive; e.g.: http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/S89R11APP1-120/PB515-ND/365948 http://magnecraft.thomasnet.com/item/relays/relays-latching-sequencing/pn-3160?&plpver=1004&origin=keyword&by=prod&filter=0 m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brain" To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 9:40 PM Subject: Re: Relay question > On 11/28/2014 7:01 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> Can you use a double pole button, use one pole to switch the relay and >> the other to control the current through the contacts? > I still think I need a latching relay for the "switching" > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 28 21:24:18 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 22:24:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC document AA-L619A-TK Message-ID: <201411290324.WAA06998@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> I went looking for MSCP docs and found a PDF holding scans of a copy of version 1.2 (April, 1982) of DEC document AA-L619A-TK ("MSCP Basic Disk Functions Manual"). It had some of what I wanted. I've now done a conversion to text and manually checked and cleaned up the result. But I'm not sure whom to offer the resulting text file to. I don't know where I got the PDF; my notes give http://vt100.net/tmp/l619atk.pdf and http://www.microvax.org/awx/computers/VAXen/l619atk.pdf as places, but neither of those is accessible now - vt100.net returns an "I'm moving, stuff may be offline" page, and www.microvax.org gives ETIMEDOUT. And my wetware memory doesn't help me any. Anyone want a copy, or care to suggest where I should mail it? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 28 23:13:41 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 23:13:41 -0600 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: References: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <54795605.5050601@jbrain.com> On 11/28/2014 8:41 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I do have a design that sounds like what you want using 3 standard relays: one D/3PDT & two 4PDT (or, one D/3PDT, one 3PDT, one 4PDT), or probably best to just call it three 4PDT relays. > A single NO pushbutton would control the relays, wired to produce a net divide-by-2 effect. > Contacts on one of the relays would be used for the ON/OFF, in series with DT contacts on one of the others to direct the UP/DOWN. > > It's actually on-topic, as it's from a design exercise I did for the Simon relay computer. > The (whole) schematic is linked on this page: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/simon/imp.html > > See the top-left corner of page 2 of the schematic, the ?, ?a & ?b relays. > There's a timing diagram in the timing section on the web page, the ? signal would correspond to the button pushes. > > It might be possible to reduce the number of contacts if one stared at the circuit long enough. I looked at it for a while, and laid it out in Eagle, and I see what is going on. Thanks for the idea. I tried to simplify, but aside from using a few diodes to reduce the number of poles in the Phi relay, I see no way to get around needing 1 4PDT (Relay A) and 1 3PDT (Relay B). Still, it's a plan. > Perhaps the solenoid-triggerred 'mechanical flip-flop' relay Brian pointed to is closer to what you want. One thing to note about that type is when the system is turned off it can be left in - and hence will power-up in - either of the two states, you wouldn't know initially whether it was going to go up or down, unless you knew from the last time it was operated. > Yes, I like your idea, because it always starts from a known state. But, at least I have two options. I'll buy some 12VDC relays this week to wire it up. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 28 23:17:55 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 21:17:55 -0800 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: References: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <54795703.2000400@sydex.com> On 11/28/2014 06:41 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: ... So, this can be the basis: https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/4ndbv7/toggle-relay-flip-flop/ Add a 3rd DPDT relay with the coil connected to the Q output as a reversing switch. The pushbutton (DPST) should have a second set of contacts to control main power to the motor. --Chuck From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com Fri Nov 28 23:31:07 2014 From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 16:31:07 +1100 Subject: foam in DEC SBB drives, ok to remove? Message-ID: I have some of these DEC SBB module drives, but the foam has gone crumbly, wondering if it is ok to remove the foam and operate without it? http://images.esellerpro.com/2131/I/842/7/100_2665.JPG From brain at jbrain.com Sat Nov 29 00:07:46 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 00:07:46 -0600 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <54795703.2000400@sydex.com> References: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> <54795703.2000400@sydex.com> Message-ID: <547962B2.1090507@jbrain.com> On 11/28/2014 11:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/28/2014 06:41 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > ... > > So, this can be the basis: > > https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/4ndbv7/toggle-relay-flip-flop/ > > Add a 3rd DPDT relay with the coil connected to the Q output as a > reversing switch. The pushbutton (DPST) should have a second set of > contacts to control main power to the motor. > > --Chuck > > True, good catch. And, it looks like this could also be used to simplify the SIMON design, if desired. It'd still take 3 relays, but only 1 triple pole one Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Sat Nov 29 00:14:04 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 00:14:04 -0600 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <54795703.2000400@sydex.com> References: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> <54795703.2000400@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5479642C.80807@jbrain.com> On 11/28/2014 11:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/28/2014 06:41 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > ... > > So, this can be the basis: > > https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/4ndbv7/toggle-relay-flip-flop/ > > Add a 3rd DPDT relay with the coil connected to the Q output as a > reversing switch. The pushbutton (DPST) should have a second set of > contacts to control main power to the motor. > > --Chuck > > Actually, now that I look at this, I think it will only work with momentary pushbutton presses, as the relay windows have to be half the voltage used, as the voltage has to be high enough to energize both relays in series. I saw this design on another site, and the caveat was listed there, so I think it applies here. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 00:35:25 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 01:35:25 -0500 Subject: Relay question References: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> <54795703.2000400@sydex.com> Message-ID: Well, gee, if you're going to use a DPST pushbutton anyway, then all you need is a single impulse relay like the original suggestion. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 12:17 AM Subject: Re: Relay question > On 11/28/2014 06:41 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > ... > > So, this can be the basis: > > https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/4ndbv7/toggle-relay-flip-flop/ > > Add a 3rd DPDT relay with the coil connected to the Q output as a > reversing switch. The pushbutton (DPST) should have a second set of > contacts to control main power to the motor. > > --Chuck > > From supervinx at libero.it Sat Nov 29 01:21:33 2014 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 08:21:33 +0100 Subject: DEC document AA-L619A-TK In-Reply-To: <201411290324.WAA06998@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201411290324.WAA06998@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1417245694.2692.0.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Il giorno ven, 28/11/2014 alle 22.24 -0500, Mouse ha scritto: > I went looking for MSCP docs and found a PDF holding scans > of a copy of version 1.2 (April, 1982) of DEC document AA-L619A-TK > ("MSCP Basic Disk Functions Manual"). It had some of what I wanted. > > I've now done a conversion to text and manually checked and cleaned up > the result. But I'm not sure whom to offer the resulting text file to. > I don't know where I got the PDF; my notes give > http://vt100.net/tmp/l619atk.pdf and > http://www.microvax.org/awx/computers/VAXen/l619atk.pdf as places, but > neither of those is accessible now - vt100.net returns an "I'm moving, > stuff may be offline" page, and www.microvax.org gives ETIMEDOUT. And > my wetware memory doesn't help me any. > > Anyone want a copy, or care to suggest where I should mail it? > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B The original can be found here... http://decdoc.itsx.net/pdp11nl/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 29 01:26:21 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 23:26:21 -0800 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <5479642C.80807@jbrain.com> References: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> <54795703.2000400@sydex.com> <5479642C.80807@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5479751D.9060600@sydex.com> On 11/28/2014 10:14 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Actually, now that I look at this, I think it will only work with > momentary pushbutton presses, as the relay windows have to be half the > voltage used, as the voltage has to be high enough to energize both > relays in series. So, put a capacitor with a bleeder in series with the pushbutton. Shouldn't that work? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 29 00:58:34 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 22:58:34 -0800 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: References: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> <54795703.2000400@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54796E9A.7000704@sydex.com> On 11/28/2014 10:35 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Well, gee, if you're going to use a DPST pushbutton anyway, then all you > need is a single impulse relay like the original suggestion. Anyone remember Lionel trains? The power packs were AC (not DC as in HO) and there was an impulse relay for reversing called an "E-Unit": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3cHF_a6CNM --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 02:23:12 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 08:23:12 -0000 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <547931FF.5080208@jbrain.com> References: <547822ED.5060205@jbrain.com> <5478D9B8.6010909@sydex.com> <5478F1DD.1000103@jbrain.com> <3FA90D902E0446AEAA077F5CA541E432@310e2> <547912CC.7020809@sydex.com> <201411290109.UAA06376@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547931FF.5080208@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <03d101d00bad$b86a8220$293f8660$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Brain > Sent: 29 November 2014 02:40 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Relay question > > On 11/28/2014 7:09 PM, Mouse wrote: > > Well, as I read it, it was more like > > > > Push: lift goes up > > Release: lift stops > > Push: lift goes down > > Release: lift stops > > Push: lift goes up > > ...etc > Correct: It seems a neat bit of a brain exercise, actually. > > Jim No need, you can get bi-stable relays that flip on a pulse and stay flipped. E.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171362456669 although I can't find anyone with a US product. "Ebay.com" only shows me US product... Dave G4UGM From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 29 07:56:18 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 08:56:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC document AA-L619A-TK In-Reply-To: <1417245694.2692.0.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <201411290324.WAA06998@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1417245694.2692.0.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: <201411291356.IAA16670@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I went looking for MSCP docs and found a PDF holding scans of a copy >> of version 1.2 (April, 1982) of DEC document AA-L619A-TK [...] >> I don't know where I got the PDF; [...] > The original can be found here... > http://decdoc.itsx.net/pdp11nl/ Ah! Thank you. Yes, the l619atk.pdf there is bit-identical to the PDF I started with. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 29 08:20:51 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 14:20:51 +0000 Subject: DEC document AA-L619A-TK In-Reply-To: <201411291356.IAA16670@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201411290324.WAA06998@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1417245694.2692.0.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <201411291356.IAA16670@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5479D643.7020508@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/11/2014 13:56, Mouse wrote: >>> I went looking for MSCP docs and found a PDF holding scans of a copy >>> of version 1.2 (April, 1982) of DEC document AA-L619A-TK [...] > >>> I don't know where I got the PDF; [...] > >> The original can be found here... >> http://decdoc.itsx.net/pdp11nl/ > > Ah! Thank you. Yes, the l619atk.pdf there is bit-identical to the PDF > I started with. I'm not sure what you're looking for but I know of three MSCP documents which were at one time hard to find. However I acquired copies several years ago, scanned them, and made them available. They are: MSCP Basic Disk Functions Manual AA-L619A-TK, Version 1.2, First Edition April 1982 Storage Systems Diagnostics and Utility Protocol AA-L620A-TK April 1982 Storage System Unibus Port Description AA-L621A-TK April 1982 Collectively they make up the UDA50 Programmer's Documentation Kit, published by Digital Equipment Corporation, Part No. QP-905-GZ. There are three documents in the set, which are useful (if not essential) to anyone programming for DEC's RQDX controllers and other MSCP or TMSCP controllers, as well as the UDA50. Don't be put off by the "Unibus" in the title of the third; it's applicable to QBus systems as well. If you can't find them all, they are (temporarily) back at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/MSCP/ -- Pete Pete Turnbull From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 29 08:46:14 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 09:46:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC document AA-L619A-TK In-Reply-To: <5479D643.7020508@dunnington.plus.com> References: <201411290324.WAA06998@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1417245694.2692.0.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <201411291356.IAA16670@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5479D643.7020508@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <201411291446.JAA19493@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>> I went looking for MSCP docs [...] >>> [...] >> [...] > I'm not sure what you're looking for but I know of three MSCP > documents which were at one time hard to find. However I acquired > copies several years ago, scanned them, and made them available. > They are: > MSCP Basic Disk Functions Manual AA-L619A-TK, Version 1.2, First > Edition April 1982 That's the document I was talking about (though, as you presumably know, it's a different scan of it). > Storage Systems Diagnostics and Utility Protocol AA-L620A-TK April 1982 > Storage System Unibus Port Description AA-L621A-TK April 1982 > Collectively they make up the UDA50 Programmer's Documentation Kit > [...] That is very much of interest to me. What motivated this is that my MicroVAX-II emulator is getting to the point where I think it may complete a build of the NetBSD world running diskless, and I'd like to give it local disk. But that requires knowing enough MSCP to build an MSCP disk emulator. AA-L619A-TK has almost enough; combined with the NetBSD driver code it may be enough. But AA-L620A-TK and AA-L621A-TK will definitely be good to have. > If you can't find them all, they are (temporarily) back at > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/MSCP/ I've snagged copies of all three. Thank you very much. Mouse From js at cimmeri.com Sat Nov 29 09:08:26 2014 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 10:08:26 -0500 Subject: foam in DEC SBB drives, ok to remove? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> On 11/29/2014 12:31 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: > I have some of these DEC SBB module drives, but the foam has gone > crumbly, wondering if it is ok to remove the foam and operate without > it? > > http://images.esellerpro.com/2131/I/842/7/100_2665.JPG > > Of course. It's just noise reduction. - J. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 29 09:13:13 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 15:13:13 +0000 Subject: DEC document AA-L619A-TK In-Reply-To: <201411291446.JAA19493@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201411290324.WAA06998@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1417245694.2692.0.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <201411291356.IAA16670@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5479D643.7020508@dunnington.plus.com> <201411291446.JAA19493@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5479E289.5080808@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/11/2014 14:46, Mouse wrote: >> Collectively they make up the UDA50 Programmer's Documentation Kit >> [...] > > That is very much of interest to me. >> If you can't find them all, they are (temporarily) back at >> http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/MSCP/ > > I've snagged copies of all three. Thank you very much. You're welcome. I thought I'd given them to Al at bitsavers but I didn't see them there until I looked under pdf/dec/disc/uda50/ - and there's more stuff there that might be useful. I only uploaded the PDFs to my own website but I do have the TIFFs that are mentioned in its index. If anyone needs the TIFFs, please let me know. -- Pete From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 29 10:51:50 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 08:51:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: foam in DEC SBB drives, ok to remove? In-Reply-To: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> References: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net> Get that F'ing foam out of there!! Not only does it get crumbly, there is sometimes an intermediate stage where it smells like vinegar, and is a strong acid. When my best friend was alive, he stored his camera stuff in airtight cases in foam. After his death, I went through what was left of his stuff. One case had a Visoflex, bellows, and a Leitz Tele-Elmarit 180mm M Visoflex mount lens. 250 of those were made. One in decent shape goes for $2K. His was brand-new, quite possibly the last, and only one in perfect shape. The foam ATE into the barrel of the lens, destroying all collector value. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From other at oryx.cc Sat Nov 29 03:42:31 2014 From: other at oryx.cc (Jerry Kemp) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 03:42:31 -0600 Subject: AT&T 3B2 ROMs? In-Reply-To: <20141128071035.GA14646@loomcom.com> References: <20141128071035.GA14646@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <54799507.7030007@oryx.cc> You asked about a month too late. There was a free 3b2 model 400 in the DFW metroplex area just last month on Craigslist. It appears to be gone now. Jerry On 11/28/14 01:10 AM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > All, > > Does anybody have binary or hex dumps of the (E)PROMs from any AT&T > 3B2 variant? I would be very interested in examining them if you do. > > I'm looking especially for any (E)PROMs from the 3B2 Model 400 or the > 3B2 Model 600, but frankly I'd be happy to get all and any I can find. > > -Seth > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 29 11:17:04 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 17:17:04 +0000 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <54796E9A.7000704@sydex.com> References: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> <54795703.2000400@sydex.com> ,<54796E9A.7000704@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > Anyone remember Lionel trains? The power packs were AC (not DC as in > HO) and there was an impulse relay for reversing called an "E-Unit": The old O gauge Hornby trains (old meaning 1930s) were also AC. The motors were series wound, a single field coil on a pole piece assembly that fitted round a 3 pole armature. The pole piece was in 2 parts, spring loaded to open. When the motor was running the magnetic field kept it all together, but with no supply voltage it would open up. There was a pawl mechanism operated by the moving part of the pole piece which swapped the connections to the brushes, so reversing the motor. So every start was in the opposite direction. Do Marklin still make AC HO gauge locomotives? IIRC they used an overvoltage to toggle the reversing relay. -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 11:33:15 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 17:33:15 -0000 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: References: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> <54795703.2000400@sydex.com> , <54796E9A.7000704@sydex.com> Message-ID: <000401d00bfa$8f28ce10$ad7a6a30$@gmail.com> I had a 3-Rail Hornby "O" gauge that used a toggle relay to reverse. I think rather than over voltage it was set up so the relay had a very low "hold-in voltage". It had a pawl that drove a commutator shaft that generated the reversing. I think it was 24volt but might have been higher.... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 29 November 2014 17:17 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Relay question > > > > > Anyone remember Lionel trains? The power packs were AC (not DC as in > > HO) and there was an impulse relay for reversing called an "E-Unit": > > The old O gauge Hornby trains (old meaning 1930s) were also AC. The motors > were series wound, a single field coil on a pole piece assembly that fitted > round a 3 pole armature. The pole piece was in 2 parts, spring loaded to > open. When the motor was running the magnetic field kept it all together, > but with no supply voltage it would open up. There was a pawl mechanism > operated by the moving part of the pole piece which swapped the > connections to the brushes, so reversing the motor. So every start was in the > opposite direction. > > Do Marklin still make AC HO gauge locomotives? IIRC they used an > overvoltage to toggle the reversing relay. > > -tony From rachael at telefisk.org Sat Nov 29 11:36:26 2014 From: rachael at telefisk.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 18:36:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: facit 4042 Message-ID: Does anyone happen the manuel for the facit 4042 punch/reader prod 9280 3111, looks a bit like the 4047 but is has no display/keyboard, and turned 90degres. Has two IEEE-488 connectors, one of which is on an expansion board with dip switchs to set addres. -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 29 13:46:23 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 19:46:23 +0000 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <000401d00bfa$8f28ce10$ad7a6a30$@gmail.com> References: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> <54795703.2000400@sydex.com> , <54796E9A.7000704@sydex.com> , <000401d00bfa$8f28ce10$ad7a6a30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I had a 3-Rail Hornby "O" gauge that used a toggle relay to reverse. I think > rather than over voltage it was set up so the relay had a very low "hold-in > voltage". It had a pawl that drove a commutator shaft that generated the > reversing. I think it was 24volt but might have been higher.... Sounds like the one I was describing, except that the relay coil was the motor field winding with the moving pole piece acting as the relay armature. The switch was a fibreboard disk with brass contact plates on it and 3 spring contacts pressing on it. The fourth connection was made via the pivot screw to the chassis, then to the wheels and back to the track. I still have the motor unit somewhere, it'll turn up in the next year or so as I unpack everything.. IIRC it was 20V AC -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 13:48:04 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 19:48:04 -0000 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: References: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> <54795703.2000400@sydex.com> , <54796E9A.7000704@sydex.com> , <000401d00bfa$8f28ce10$ad7a6a30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b901d00c0d$643c83a0$2cb58ae0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 29 November 2014 19:46 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Relay question > > > > I had a 3-Rail Hornby "O" gauge that used a toggle relay to reverse. I > > think rather than over voltage it was set up so the relay had a very > > low "hold-in voltage". It had a pawl that drove a commutator shaft > > that generated the reversing. I think it was 24volt but might have been > higher.... > > Sounds like the one I was describing, except that the relay coil was the motor > field winding with the moving pole piece acting as the relay armature. The > switch was a fibreboard disk with brass contact plates on it and 3 spring > contacts pressing on it. The fourth connection was made via the pivot screw > to the chassis, then to the wheels and back to the track. I still have the motor > unit somewhere, it'll turn up in the next year or so as I unpack everything.. > > IIRC it was 20V AC > > -tony I wosh I still had any of mine, it was FUN! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 29 13:52:41 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 19:52:41 +0000 Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: <00b901d00c0d$643c83a0$2cb58ae0$@gmail.com> References: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> <54795703.2000400@sydex.com> , <54796E9A.7000704@sydex.com> , <000401d00bfa$8f28ce10$ad7a6a30$@gmail.com> , <00b901d00c0d$643c83a0$2cb58ae0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > I wosh I still had any of mine, it was FUN! I think the motor I have came out of a 4-4-2 steam loco model. I may still have bits of the body, the bogies are long gone, and I never had any of the track. I gave away my OO gauge stuff (more recent, 2 rail, 12V DC) just before the move. It went to a friend, officially for his son when he gets a bit older. But I think we all know what that really means :-) -tony From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 14:22:11 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 21:22:11 +0100 Subject: Problem with DEC LSI11 / KD11-F Message-ID: I have been browsing through some of my old Qbus boards and found one KD11-F (M7264) CPU with 4 k word memory, a couple of KD11-HA (M7270) , a KDF11-A (M8186) and some assorted memory boards and some SLUs. All CPUs seemed to work except for the KD11-F board, which was a bit sad since that was the original LSI-11 board. I looked at bitsavers for schematics. Indeed there was one, but my board revision seems to be older. It is not matching layout wise and it has plenty of patches. Is there a print set for the older revision of the board? Well, I am not giving up that easy. The clock signal was there so I attached the logic analyzer over the control chip and was able to find out the micro address (sampled at falling PH2 clock) and data (sampled at falling PH1 clock). The strange thing was that it was not starting at address 1. It starts of at 89 hex, then steps to 8A and then to 39D. The data returned is FFFF, FFFF and 708A (forever). FFFF is supposed by NOP. 708A is also some other valid micro instruction. (according to the EK-KUV11-TM_LSI11_WCS.pdf ) Is the micro code source / dump for the LSI-11 available somewhere? If I remove one of the MICROMs it starts at 1 and goes on 2,3,4,5,6, etc. My guess is that one of the MICROMs are bad, forcing some bits low. Or maybe the strange precharging isn't working? Now, I have several M7270. I could sacrifice one board to get the other working. But are the chips identical? The markings on the chips are not identical. The M7264 board has the following chips: CP1611B-51 2111549 CP1621B451 23001C201 CP1631B-10 23088A501 CP1631B-07 23087A501 The M7270 board has the following chips: 1611H 21-15579 3007D 23-002B5 3010D 23-001B5 2007C 23-002C4 Is there a engineering drawing printset for the M7270 (KD11-HA) somewhere? /Mattis From lists at loomcom.com Sat Nov 29 12:55:03 2014 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 12:55:03 -0600 Subject: AT&T 3B2 information Message-ID: <20141129185503.GA9321@loomcom.com> Folks, For some reason I got it in my head that writing an AT&T 3B2 emulator might be a good idea. That idea has pretty much been derailed by lack of documentation. I have been unable to find any detailed technical description of any 3B2 systems. Visual inspection of a 3B2 300 main board reveals the following major components: - WE32100 CPU - WE32101 MMU - 4 x D2764A EPROM - TMS2797NL floppy disk controller - PD7261A hard disk controller - SCN2681A dual UART - AM9517A Multimode DMA Controller How these are addressed is anybody's guess. To even dream of doing an emulator, I at least need to know the system memory map -- what physical addresses these devices map to. Without that it's pretty pointless to get started. If anyone has access to this kind of information, please drop me a line. Otherwise, I'll just put this one on the far-back burner! -Seth From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 29 14:52:24 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 12:52:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Relay question In-Reply-To: References: <01PFHZHOLY1E003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <5478FBE4.9040900@jbrain.com> <54795703.2000400@sydex.com> ,<54796E9A.7000704@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141129124758.J19474@shell.lmi.net> > Anyone remember Lionel trains? Still around! Now, in addition to their usual offerings, they have very expensive "collectible" higher detail models. Neil Young bought a big hunk of the company, and also created "Lion-Tech" which is involved with fancier control systems, realistic sound effects, etc. (they used to (15 years ago) sublet a chunk of my office space for their testing layout!) > The power packs were AC (not DC as in HO) and there was an impulse relay > for reversing called an "E-Unit": On Sat, 29 Nov 2014, tony duell wrote: > The old O gauge Hornby trains (old meaning 1930s) were also AC. Lionel WAS O gauge. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 29 15:00:40 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 21:00:40 +0000 Subject: Problem with DEC LSI11 / KD11-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <547A33F8.3050609@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/11/2014 20:22, Mattis Lind wrote: > I have been browsing through some of my old Qbus boards and found one > KD11-F (M7264) CPU with 4 k word memory, a couple of KD11-HA (M7270) , a > KDF11-A (M8186) and some assorted memory boards and some SLUs. > > All CPUs seemed to work except for the KD11-F board > The M7264 board has the following chips: > > CP1611B-51 2111549 > CP1621B451 23001C201 > CP1631B-10 23088A501 > CP1631B-07 23087A501 > > The M7270 board has the following chips: > > 1611H 21-15579 > 3007D 23-002B5 > 3010D 23-001B5 > 2007C 23-002C4 As far as I knew, they used the same chipset with the same instruction set, but those are clearly different. The 21-15579 is the ALU etc, the 23-xxxxxx are the microcode ROMs. Obviously you could swap the 21-15579, but you probably can't mix-and-match the ROMs. It couldn't be that one set is something other than a PDP-11 instruction set? -- Pete From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com Sat Nov 29 15:09:50 2014 From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 08:09:50 +1100 Subject: foam in DEC SBB drives, ok to remove? In-Reply-To: <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net> References: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 3:51 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Not only does it get crumbly, there is sometimes an intermediate stage > where it smells like vinegar, and is a strong acid. ick! thanks for the tip, will get right on it. The most egregious use of foam I've encountered was in a token ring hub, where a block of foam was use to support the small PCB which ran the width of the hub. The PCB held the relays that sit behind the sockets, of course with the foam atomized the PCB was swinging around on the wires. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 15:37:34 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 16:37:34 -0500 Subject: foam in DEC SBB drives, ok to remove? References: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6DF6E97018004D3DA92DB44513AD17B6@310e2> I had a number of ceramic ICs with gold pins in old anti-static foam; ate the pins right off. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Williams" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 4:09 PM Subject: Re: foam in DEC SBB drives, ok to remove? > On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 3:51 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Not only does it get crumbly, there is sometimes an intermediate stage >> where it smells like vinegar, and is a strong acid. > > ick! thanks for the tip, will get right on it. > > The most egregious use of foam I've encountered was in a token ring > hub, where a block of foam was use to support the small PCB which ran > the width of the hub. The PCB held the relays that sit behind the > sockets, of course with the foam atomized the PCB was swinging around > on the wires. From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 17:03:14 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 00:03:14 +0100 Subject: Problem with DEC LSI11 / KD11-F In-Reply-To: <547A33F8.3050609@dunnington.plus.com> References: <547A33F8.3050609@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: l?rdag 29 november 2014 skrev Pete Turnbull : > On 29/11/2014 20:22, Mattis Lind wrote: > >> I have been browsing through some of my old Qbus boards and found one >> KD11-F (M7264) CPU with 4 k word memory, a couple of KD11-HA (M7270) , a >> KDF11-A (M8186) and some assorted memory boards and some SLUs. >> >> All CPUs seemed to work except for the KD11-F board >> > > The M7264 board has the following chips: >> >> CP1611B-51 2111549 >> CP1621B451 23001C201 >> CP1631B-10 23088A501 >> CP1631B-07 23087A501 >> >> The M7270 board has the following chips: >> >> 1611H 21-15579 >> 3007D 23-002B5 >> 3010D 23-001B5 >> 2007C 23-002C4 >> > > As far as I knew, they used the same chipset with the same instruction > set, but those are clearly different. The 21-15579 is the ALU etc, the > 23-xxxxxx are the microcode ROMs. Obviously you could swap the 21-15579, > but you probably can't mix-and-match the ROMs. It couldn't be that one set > is something other than a PDP-11 instruction set? > > Further searching and I found the LSI-11 Systems Service Manual from August 81. It describes the various revisons of the M7264 and M7270. Originally the chip used -5.1 V Vbb. But M7270 and rev E an onwards of the M7264 use a -3.9 V Vbb, which implicated use of other chips. So, they are not compatble as it appears unless I modify the Vbb generation circuit on the board. Does anyone have a spare 23088A5 chip, maybe? > -- > Pete > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 29 19:33:21 2014 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 17:33:21 -0800 Subject: foam in DEC SBB drives, ok to remove? In-Reply-To: <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net> References: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <7FD33E17-D0F9-4F71-93C0-3AC35D47023E@aracnet.com> On Nov 29, 2014, at 8:51 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > When my best friend was alive, he stored his camera stuff in airtight > cases in foam. > After his death, I went through what was left of his stuff. > > One case had a Visoflex, bellows, and a Leitz Tele-Elmarit 180mm M > Visoflex mount lens. 250 of those were made. One in decent shape goes > for $2K. His was brand-new, quite possibly the last, and only one in > perfect shape. The foam ATE into the barrel of the lens, destroying all > collector value. You really know how to hurt a person, don't you? I use both film and digital Leica M's, including the Visoflex bellows and lenses, so this is a seriously painful story. That is one of the rarest Leica lenses around. Zane From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 29 19:40:00 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 01:40:00 +0000 Subject: Problem with DEC LSI11 / KD11-F In-Reply-To: References: <547A33F8.3050609@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <547A7570.1090305@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/11/2014 23:03, Mattis Lind wrote: > Further searching and I found the LSI-11 Systems Service Manual from > August 81. It describes the various revisons of the M7264 and M7270. > Originally the chip used -5.1 V Vbb. But M7270 and rev E an onwards > of the M7264 use a -3.9 V Vbb, which implicated use of other chips. > So, they are not compatble as it appears unless I modify the Vbb > generation circuit on the board. Does the Service Manual say anything specific about the ROM compatibility? I wonder how important it is to match the ROM set to the Vbb value, and to what extent the change was for improved noise immunity or longevity. They're clearly slightly different types of ROMs, though. If you write the numbers in the standard way they'd be shown in, say, a DEC parts list, you can tell something about them. For example, 23088A501 would be 23-088A5-01. 23- means it's a ROM (or at least a ROM-like programmable part; 21- is a microprocessor or copro); the next three characters are numeric digits specifying the ROM number; "A5" tells you about the width and technology (the 'A') and the size in kilobits. So B5 and A5 are presumably slightly different technologies - but as the socket layouts are the same, presumably the same width. Incidentally, I don't know what Bx means but every Ax I've seen is a bipolar PROM. The -01 is like a version number (sometimes used for different suppliers of the same device in other types of parts). I've never seen anything other than -01 for a ((E)P)ROM, though, because DEC seem to have always changed the 3-digit code for even the most trivial changes to content. Note there's no relationship between numbers for successive revisions. For example 23-264E4/23-265E4 and 23-188E5/23-189E5 are both RQDX2 ROM sets but the lower-numbered one is the later version (V.10.0E; the other is V8.0). BUT, as an aside, they did occasionally reuse triplets, requiring you to read the next two characters as well. For example, 23-089E2 is a 16k-bit TU-58 firmware ROM (E2=2Kx8 MOS) while 23-089E8 is part of a MicroVAX 3100 boot ROM set (E8=128Kx8 MOS). -- Pete From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 20:48:41 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 18:48:41 -0800 Subject: Problem with DEC LSI11 / KD11-F In-Reply-To: <547A7570.1090305@dunnington.plus.com> References: <547A33F8.3050609@dunnington.plus.com> <547A7570.1090305@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: For what it's worth these are the versions that I have on my M7264-YB, which is also non-functional: E53 21-15579 Data Chip (ceramic) E58 2007-C Control Chip (ceramic) E63 23-003B6 ROM Chip 1 (ceramic hybrid dual chip package) E70 23-004B5 ROM Chip 2 (plastic) E75 23-005B5 KEV11 (ceramic) From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Nov 29 21:01:54 2014 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 19:01:54 -0800 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> Message-ID: <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> On 28 Nov 2014, at 12:11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, I grabbed some aluminum foil from yesterday's turkey roast (FWIW, the "dry brining with herbs under the skin" works wonderfully). Interesting effect--the foil must be in close proximity to the coils to heat up--and it does indeed do that very quickly. Move it an 1/8" away and the effect is negligible. What's interesting is to see the foil "jump" when power is applied. Interesting. Attempting to reproduce on the inductive cooktop I have here resulted in an immediate fault and shutdown. Apparently my unit is too smart to indulge experimentation with metals that fail the magnet test. Quell bummer! -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 21:20:03 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 21:20:03 -0600 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 9:01 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote: > > Interesting. Attempting to reproduce on the inductive cooktop I have here > resulted in an immediate fault and shutdown. Apparently my unit is too > smart to indulge experimentation with metals that fail the magnet test. > Quell bummer! > Any sense of why it shut-down? One might immediately assume it's due to an over-current situation, but it would be worth knowing exactly what happened, for sure. Did you try reducing the coupling, by placing a thin sheet of glass between the cooktop and the alum. foil? From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Nov 29 21:41:34 2014 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 19:41:34 -0800 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On 29 Nov 2014, at 19:20, drlegendre . wrote: > Any sense of why it shut-down? One might immediately assume it's due to an > over-current situation, but it would be worth knowing exactly what > happened, for sure. I suspect it?s just the opposite; the fault is the same as if one removed a ferrous pot from the cooktop for more than a handful of seconds while running; from what I?ve observed it looks like it decides that there?s *insufficient* current being drawn, throws the fault display and shuts down the coil in question. > Did you try reducing the coupling, by placing a thin sheet of glass between > the cooktop and the alum. foil? I did with no change in the results but it did lead to the obvious follow-on; It turns out that for a 10? Al-Clad pan I can distance it from the surface by about 8mm before it decides to tell me to sod off. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 22:14:56 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 22:14:56 -0600 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: @Chris, That's what I was wondering - whether it was as sensitive to an open-circuit as to an excessively short one. Do you know what the open-circuit concerns are? Is it one of those supplies that just can't tolerate being unloaded? On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 9:41 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote: > > On 29 Nov 2014, at 19:20, drlegendre . wrote: > > > Any sense of why it shut-down? One might immediately assume it's due to > an > > over-current situation, but it would be worth knowing exactly what > > happened, for sure. > > I suspect it?s just the opposite; the fault is the same as if one removed > a ferrous pot from the cooktop for more than a handful of seconds while > running; from what I?ve observed it looks like it decides that there?s > *insufficient* current being drawn, throws the fault display and shuts down > the coil in question. > > > Did you try reducing the coupling, by placing a thin sheet of glass > between > > the cooktop and the alum. foil? > > I did with no change in the results but it did lead to the obvious > follow-on; It turns out that for a 10? Al-Clad pan I can distance it from > the surface by about 8mm before it decides to tell me to sod off. > -- > Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. > chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 > http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" > > > > > > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sat Nov 29 16:19:24 2014 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 22:19:24 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B2 information In-Reply-To: <20141129185503.GA9321@loomcom.com> References: <20141129185503.GA9321@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <3B8C7FFD-1BB0-41DD-A6C4-849454E2FE29@wickensonline.co.uk> Don't give up Seth this is a worthy cause http://www.wickensonline.co.uk http://declegacy.org.uk http://retrochallenge.net https://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo > On 29 Nov 2014, at 18:55, Seth Morabito wrote: > > Folks, > > For some reason I got it in my head that writing an AT&T 3B2 emulator > might be a good idea. That idea has pretty much been derailed by lack > of documentation. > > I have been unable to find any detailed technical description of any > 3B2 systems. Visual inspection of a 3B2 300 main board reveals the > following major components: > > - WE32100 CPU > - WE32101 MMU > - 4 x D2764A EPROM > - TMS2797NL floppy disk controller > - PD7261A hard disk controller > - SCN2681A dual UART > - AM9517A Multimode DMA Controller > > How these are addressed is anybody's guess. > > To even dream of doing an emulator, I at least need to know the system > memory map -- what physical addresses these devices map to. Without > that it's pretty pointless to get started. > > If anyone has access to this kind of information, please drop me a > line. Otherwise, I'll just put this one on the far-back burner! > > -Seth > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 29 16:26:39 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 14:26:39 -0800 Subject: AT&T 3B2 information In-Reply-To: <3B8C7FFD-1BB0-41DD-A6C4-849454E2FE29@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <20141129185503.GA9321@loomcom.com> <3B8C7FFD-1BB0-41DD-A6C4-849454E2FE29@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <547A481F.5090800@bitsavers.org> On 11/29/14 2:19 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: >> For some reason I got it in my head that writing an AT&T 3B2 emulator >> might be a good idea. That idea has pretty much been derailed by lack >> of documentation. > Do you have access to the AT&T SVR4 sources? 3B2 was the porting base machine. From lists at loomcom.com Sat Nov 29 17:15:10 2014 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 17:15:10 -0600 Subject: AT&T 3B2 information In-Reply-To: <547A481F.5090800@bitsavers.org> References: <20141129185503.GA9321@loomcom.com> <3B8C7FFD-1BB0-41DD-A6C4-849454E2FE29@wickensonline.co.uk> <547A481F.5090800@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20141129231510.GA18232@loomcom.com> * On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 02:26:39PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > > Do you have access to the AT&T SVR4 sources? 3B2 was the porting > base machine. > > I do, and that's an excellent idea. Digging through the sources turned up the vuifile (which, as I understand it, is a linking map for the kernel) and the section attached below may be the information I need. It looks like the system board IO space starts at 0x40000. The MMU's registers described in the WE 32101 datasheet look like the correspond to the symbols mmusdc1, mmusdc2, mmupdc1r, mmupdc2r, etc... up to mmuvar. I'm sure much more will be revealed as I read through the sources to see how the rest of the symbols are used. -Seth ------------------------->8 snip 8<--------------------------------- MEMORY { KP_boot: origin = 0x2004000, length = 0x80000 KV_gate: origin = 0, length = 0x800 KV_demot: origin = 0x20000, length = 0x20000 KV_sbdint: origin = 0x40000, length = 0x20000 KV_text: origin = 0x40000000, length = 0x160000 KV_data: origin = 0x40160000, length = 0x20000 KV_bss: origin = 0x40180000, length = 0x160000 KV_sysseg: origin = 0x402e0000, length = 0x200000 KV_windows: origin = 0x404e0000, length = 0x40000 UV_ublock: origin = 0xc0000000, length = 0x20000 UV_stack: origin = 0xc0020000, length = 0xe0000 } [...] kv_sbdint (NOLOAD): { unxsbdst = . ; mmusdc1 = . ; mmusdc2 = . + 0x100; mmupdc1r = . + 0x200; mmupdc2r = . + 0x300; mmupdc1l = . + 0x400; mmupdc2l = . + 0x500; mmusrama = . + 0x600; mmusramb = . + 0x700; mmufltcr = . + 0x800; mmufltar = . + 0x900; mmucr = . + 0xa00; mmuvar = . + 0xb00; sbdpit = . + 0x2000; clrclkint = . + 0x2013; sbdnvram = . + 0x3000; sbdrcsr = . + 0x4000; sbdwcsr = . + 0x4000; dmaid = . + 0x5000; dmaiuA = . + 0x6000; dmaiuB = . + 0x7000; dmac = . + 0x8000; duart = . + 0x9000; idisk = . + 0xa000; ifloppy = . + 0xd000; dmaif = . + 0xe000; } > KV_sbdint ------------------------->8 snip 8<--------------------------------- From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Nov 29 17:15:35 2014 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 17:15:35 -0600 Subject: AT&T 3B2 information In-Reply-To: <20141129185503.GA9321@loomcom.com> References: <20141129185503.GA9321@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20141129231535.GB26359@lonesome.com> Well, I have a complete set of the red manuals for it (including some wierd things like about how to build its boot prom). I have no need for this stuff. Where are you located? mcl From axelsson at acc.umu.se Sat Nov 29 18:03:12 2014 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 01:03:12 +0100 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 Message-ID: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> Hi! I just got the "Owner Operator Guide" manual for a MG-1 from a friend. I did some searches and found a picture on wikipedia in the article about Whitechapel Computer Works. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitechapel_Computer_Works ) I also found an evaluation of the MG-1 and several contemporary workstations... http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/acd/sus/perq_papers/perq_external/p003.htm ... but then I drew a blank. It seems like these are really rare systems. Does anyone have a system? Anyone need the manual? The system could still be around so I'm going to dig around at the university a while to see if I can locate it. If Al wants a copy for bitsavers I'll scan it before letting it go. G?ran From mikelee at tdh.com Sat Nov 29 21:33:41 2014 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 21:33:41 -0600 Subject: IC storage / anti-static foam In-Reply-To: <6DF6E97018004D3DA92DB44513AD17B6@310e2> References: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net> <6DF6E97018004D3DA92DB44513AD17B6@310e2> Message-ID: <547A9015.9050809@tdh.com> On 11/29/2014 3:37 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > I had a number of ceramic ICs with gold pins in old anti-static foam; > ate the pins right off. I know this was discussed before but.... What are recommended methods for storing a variety of ICs where they are easily accessible as needed, keeps them safe and for the long term? From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Sat Nov 29 21:56:07 2014 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 22:56:07 -0500 Subject: IC storage / anti-static foam In-Reply-To: <547A9015.9050809@tdh.com> References: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net> <6DF6E97018004D3DA92DB44513AD17B6@310e2> <547A9015.9050809@tdh.com> Message-ID: <00a501d00c51$92373400$b6a59c00$@sc.rr.com> I've had the same thing happen to me only it was the Z80 and mask programmed roms for the TRS-80 Model III and a set of chips to make a 6800 based SBC way back when I was in college. All the chips were packed in black anti-static foam and now the pins which are steel, I think, have tiny bits of foam stuck to the pins and it won't come off very easily. These days I just keep the ICs in the anti-static tubes they're shipped in. I hope this helps. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Lee Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 10:34 PM To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts Subject: IC storage / anti-static foam On 11/29/2014 3:37 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > I had a number of ceramic ICs with gold pins in old anti-static foam; > ate the pins right off. I know this was discussed before but.... What are recommended methods for storing a variety of ICs where they are easily accessible as needed, keeps them safe and for the long term? From bpettitx at comcast.net Sat Nov 29 22:40:30 2014 From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 20:40:30 -0800 Subject: Cyber ECL Wiring Message-ID: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> Chuck Guzis wrote: "It didn't start with the 170, did it Billy? I remember a nice thick mat of twisted-pair wires on the backplanes of 6000s, as well as in a lot of attached controllers. Taper pin technology." You're right - the 170 was the first use of main frame wire wrap at CDC. I've never seen any other machine that used twisted pair wire wrap. When I left the project, they were trying to defelop a machine to automate the wiring. It was not going well. The earlier 6000, 7000 machines used twited pair with taper pins. Their wire mats were huge, more than 10 inches thick in some places. That was one of the problems they were trying to solve. Billy From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Nov 29 23:12:52 2014 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 23:12:52 -0600 Subject: EDSAC lives In-Reply-To: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> Message-ID: The National Museum of Computing unveils EDSAC re-creation: http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-30131447 - John From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 30 00:06:57 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 22:06:57 -0800 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <547AB401.6080602@sydex.com> On 11/29/2014 07:01 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote: > Interesting. Attempting to reproduce on the inductive cooktop I have > here resulted in an immediate fault and shutdown. Apparently my unit > is too smart to indulge experimentation with metals that fail the > magnet test. Quell bummer! Probably not enough turkey leavings on it... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 30 00:27:50 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 22:27:50 -0800 Subject: Cyber ECL Wiring In-Reply-To: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> Message-ID: <547AB8E6.8080604@sydex.com> On 11/29/2014 08:40 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > You're right - the 170 was the first use of main frame wire wrap at > CDC. I've never seen any other machine that used twisted pair wire > wrap. When I left the project, they were trying to defelop a machine > to automate the wiring. It was not going well. I've got a couple of Eurcard 10K ECL boards with twisted pair all over the place. Seems to be some sort of 12-bit CPU, from the looks of things. There was also some sort of stapled-wire technology that was automated. I don't recall the name of it. > The earlier 6000, 7000 machines used twited pair with taper pins. > Their wire mats were huge, more than 10 inches thick in some places. > That was one of the problems they were trying to solve. Penlight held in the mouth, go digging into the mat with both hands... Fun. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 30 00:51:21 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 06:51:21 +0000 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: > > I just got the "Owner Operator Guide" manual for a MG-1 from a friend. I > did some searches and found a picture on wikipedia in the article about > Whitechapel Computer Works. ( > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitechapel_Computer_Works ) > I also found an evaluation of the MG-1 and several contemporary > workstations... > http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/acd/sus/perq_papers/perq_external/p003.htm .> .. but then I drew a blank. It seems like these are really rare systems. > > Does anyone have a system? Anyone need the manual? I have one. I've even found it after the move (it's on a shelf behind me along with its keyboard. Not found the mouse yet, it's probably still in one of the 500 or so boxes still to unpack. It's a 32016-based unix box. There are a few gotchas that I remember. It needs a good set of NiCd cells on the power control board to start it up. If not, you have to do a 'jumpstart' involving connecting a 9V battery to a connector on that board. Some owners added an external socket wired there to make it easier to so this. The 32016, 32018 (FPU), MMU chips, etc are in nice turned-pin sockets. The EPROMs are in cheap sockets. Replacing the latter sockets will often get a dead machine going. The boot ROMs I have need 1.5M of RAM. There is 512K on the motherboard so it needs 2 RAM expansion cards. No real problem except that if it only has 512K it flashes the error code for 'multi bit RAM failure' on the LED, and nowhere in any of the manuals I have does it say it needs the extra RAM. Needless to say this led me a merry dance checking the arbitration logic, etc before I realised that what it was really moaning about was the fact that I had not plugged in the RAM expansion cards. There is a rare adapter which adds 3 ISA slots. 8 bit ones IIRC. There is a graphics processor -- a sort of blitter -- which is built in TTL and is bit serial. It wasn't fitted to later machines as it was realised that it was slower than doing the operations in software on the 32016. > The system could still be around so I'm going to dig around at the > university a while to see if I can locate it. It looks a lot like an older PC, so it is quite easy to miss. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 30 00:57:14 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 06:57:14 +0000 Subject: foam in DEC SBB drives, ok to remove? In-Reply-To: <7FD33E17-D0F9-4F71-93C0-3AC35D47023E@aracnet.com> References: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net>, <7FD33E17-D0F9-4F71-93C0-3AC35D47023E@aracnet.com> Message-ID: > > > When my best friend was alive, he stored his camera stuff in airtight > > cases in foam. > > After his death, I went through what was left of his stuff. > > > > One case had a Visoflex, bellows, and a Leitz Tele-Elmarit 180mm M > > Visoflex mount lens. 250 of those were made. One in decent shape goes > > for $2K. His was brand-new, quite possibly the last, and only one in > > perfect shape. The foam ATE into the barrel of the lens, destroying all > > collector value. > > You really know how to hurt a person, don't you? I use both film and digital Leica M's, including the Visoflex > bellows and lenses, so this is a seriously painful story. That is one of the rarest Leica lenses around. Ouch indeed. I have a small amount of Leica M stuff (M2 and M4 bodies, visoflex, 4 lenses, nothing rare). It's beautiful, although I must say that I prefer a Nikon F to the Leica M+visoflex. Fred, was this lens still usable after that. The barrel was pitted, I guess, but did the focussing mount still work and was the optics OK. I use my cameras, I don't collect them, so cosmetic damage is not so significant (I picked up a Nikkor 180mm for a very good price because somebody had scratched an inventory number on the barrel. Optically perfect, so still an excellent lens) -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 30 01:47:45 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 23:47:45 -0800 Subject: EDSAC lives In-Reply-To: <20141130051301.821A52073C28@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> <20141130051301.821A52073C28@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <873B8F54-073D-4BEB-BA1C-49468499DEC8@cs.ubc.ca> So, we have the ABC, Colossus, Manchester Baby, and now the EDSAC. Anyone for the ENIAC? Univac I? IAS machine? Whirlwind? How come 3 of the 4 are in Britain? On 2014-Nov-29, at 9:12 PM, John Foust wrote: > The National Museum of Computing unveils EDSAC re-creation: > > http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-30131447 From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 02:29:13 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 01:29:13 -0700 Subject: Problem with DEC LSI11 / KD11-F In-Reply-To: References: <547A33F8.3050609@dunnington.plus.com> <547A7570.1090305@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > E63 23-003B6 ROM Chip 1 (ceramic hybrid dual chip package) That hybrid has both of the base instruction set Microms. > E70 23-004B5 ROM Chip 2 (plastic) > E75 23-005B5 KEV11 (ceramic) Those two together are a KEV11-CA DIS (a subset of CIS). I've been trying to obtain those do dump the contents, as they are fairly rare. Another rare one is the KEV11-B, which apparently provides EIS but *not* FIS. I've got an untested design for a microcontroller-based Microm emulator that would fit into a Microm socket, but I haven't built one because I haven't so far had any special microcode I wanted to run. Eric From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 02:30:14 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 08:30:14 -0000 Subject: EDSAC lives In-Reply-To: <873B8F54-073D-4BEB-BA1C-49468499DEC8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> <20141130051301.821A52073C28@huey.classiccmp.org> <873B8F54-073D-4BEB-BA1C-49468499DEC8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <00bb01d00c77$ddc87d90$995978b0$@gmail.com> I would say that in the US you have CHM and the LCM which exhibit working mainframes. There are also MARCH and the New Jersey (I think) Museums which show working machines. In the UK several working exhibits have been "mothballed". The Science Museum has discontinued Pegasus demos, my project to restore some of the Pegasus i/o equipment at MOSI has been suspended, and the Hartree Differential Analyser is to be removed from display. Personally I would rather that money was expended on keeping real mainframes running rather than building replicas, I also note that the Baby Replica at MOSI is now around 16 years old, it first ran in 1998. Its almost an artefact in its own right... Dave Wade G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > Hilpert > Sent: 30 November 2014 07:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: EDSAC lives > > So, we have the ABC, Colossus, Manchester Baby, and now the EDSAC. > > Anyone for the ENIAC? Univac I? IAS machine? Whirlwind? > > How come 3 of the 4 are in Britain? > > > On 2014-Nov-29, at 9:12 PM, John Foust wrote: > > The National Museum of Computing unveils EDSAC re-creation: > > > > http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-30131447 From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 00:44:30 2014 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 00:44:30 -0600 Subject: AT&T 3B2 information In-Reply-To: <3B8C7FFD-1BB0-41DD-A6C4-849454E2FE29@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <20141129185503.GA9321@loomcom.com> <3B8C7FFD-1BB0-41DD-A6C4-849454E2FE29@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 4:19 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > Don't give up Seth this is a worthy cause Let me second that. The 3B2 is a crucial machine in UNIX history - and just really cool, too. I doubt I'd be much help with an emulator but best of luck with the project. (Now who's going to write the BLIT terminal emulator to go with it? :) -j From abs at absd.org Sun Nov 30 02:45:39 2014 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 08:45:39 +0000 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: Add a few more details below - its been 20 years since I last saw one so hopefully my memory is accurate On 30 Nov 2014 06:51, "tony duell" wrote: > > > I just got the "Owner Operator Guide" manual for a MG-1 from a friend. I > > did some searches and found a picture on wikipedia in the article about > > Whitechapel Computer Works. ( > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitechapel_Computer_Works ) > > I also found an evaluation of the MG-1 and several contemporary > > workstations... > > http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/acd/sus/perq_papers/perq_external/p003.htm > .> .. but then I drew a blank. It seems like these are really rare systems. > > > > Does anyone have a system? Anyone need the manual? > > I have one. I've even found it after the move (it's on a shelf behind me along > with its keyboard. Not found the mouse yet, it's probably still in one of the > 500 or so boxes still to unpack. > > It's a 32016-based unix box. There are a few gotchas that I remember. > > It needs a good set of NiCd cells on the power control board to start it up. > If not, you have to do a 'jumpstart' involving connecting a 9V battery to a connector > on that board. Some owners added an external socket wired there to make it > easier to so this. Another jumpstart option was to boot one up, leave it running for a moment and then connect it across to the dead machine > The 32016, 32018 (FPU), MMU chips, etc are in nice turned-pin sockets. The > EPROMs are in cheap sockets. Replacing the latter sockets will often get a > dead machine going. I think some of them might be early enough that they were still calling them 16032 > The boot ROMs I have need 1.5M of RAM. There is 512K on the motherboard > so it needs 2 RAM expansion cards. No real problem except that if it only > has 512K it flashes the error code for 'multi bit RAM failure' on the LED, and > nowhere in any of the manuals I have does it say it needs the extra RAM. > Needless to say this led me a merry dance checking the arbitration logic, etc > before I realised that what it was really moaning about was the fact that I had > not plugged in the RAM expansion cards. There were also some 2M cards made if you needed a lot of memory. It was possible to stack enough 512K cards that the case would not fit back on, that did not do much to improve the machines already uncertain reliability. 5.25 floppy drive (and a flar command), there was a boot floppy with formatting and partitioning tools for the MFM drive. You could steal a couple of extra tracks at the end, and pick the number of replacement blocks for bad sectors. You could also partition around a particularly bad area of a disk. > There is a rare adapter which adds 3 ISA slots. 8 bit ones IIRC. > > There is a graphics processor -- a sort of blitter -- which is built in TTL > and is bit serial. It wasn't fitted to later machines as it was realised that > it was slower than doing the operations in software on the 32016. The memory was dual ported for cpu and screen access, and if you used the right API you could have sections of the screen ram mapped directly into your apps memory - Full screen width, multiple of 4pixels height if I recall. Came with genix (a SystemV clone) and 42nix (BSD). The later with an early gcc - 1.4ish? BSD Unix including /usr/games and man pages on a 20M disk, with a high res monochrome monitor that gave you a windowing system with multiple usable terminals plus a few token other apps all in 1.5M Ram. I had one as a reference 'other' porting platform for a termcap/socket based BBS for a while. The keyboard was all kinds of awful, the mouse had a metal ball that needed the right mat to get any traction and its buttons kept popping off. It made the contemporary sun 3/50 seem like an amazing speed demon, and in a university lab of 20 I'm not sure i ever saw all machines working. People would pick an adm5 in preference to a Whitechapel - for an adm3a the decision was less clear cut. As you can tell, I miss them and wish I had been able to keep hold of one :) > > The system could still be around so I'm going to dig around at the > > university a while to see if I can locate it. > > It looks a lot like an older PC, so it is quite easy to miss. > > -tony From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 03:30:18 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 02:30:18 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B2 information In-Reply-To: References: <20141129185503.GA9321@loomcom.com> <3B8C7FFD-1BB0-41DD-A6C4-849454E2FE29@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Jason T wrote: > (Now who's going to write the BLIT terminal emulator to go with it? :) If Seth writes a 32100 CPU simulator, simulating a 5620 should be relatively easy, as the rest of the 5620 hardware is fairly simple (much simpler than a 3B2). From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 30 03:38:28 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 09:38:28 -0000 Subject: Looking for WWENG2.SYS for DECserver 900TM Message-ID: <027c01d00c81$653d1200$2fb73600$@ntlworld.com> Does anyone have this file? Apologies to those also on the HECnet list as I have posted this request there too. Regards Rob From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 05:22:21 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 12:22:21 +0100 Subject: Problem with DEC LSI11 / KD11-F In-Reply-To: <547A7570.1090305@dunnington.plus.com> References: <547A33F8.3050609@dunnington.plus.com> <547A7570.1090305@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: 2014-11-30 2:40 GMT+01:00 Pete Turnbull : > > > Does the Service Manual say anything specific about the ROM > compatibility? I wonder how important it is to match the ROM set to the > Vbb value, and to what extent the change was for improved noise immunity or > longevity. > > > Unfortunately I didn't mention anything about compatibility. Just that a certain revision also changed what chips were used. It listed the Vbb voltages for a set off chips. Here is the link to the manual: https://ia601000.us.archive.org/5/items/bitsavers_decpdp11LSnualAug81_12677441/LSI-11_Systems_Service_Manual_Aug81.pdf The older make use of -5.1 V substrate bias whilst newer used -3.9V. I am not that eager to try to mix the chips between the boards if this would make them to fail. I cold try to modify the bias circuit. But then it probably also affects the -5 for the memory chips. It uses MK4096 chips. My board seems be a etch revision D, and schematic revision H if I read it correctly. The schematic at bitsavers ( http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/dec/pdp11/1103/1103_Schematics.pdf) is a revision "Z" and is for the "F" etch revision. Does anyone have the older schematics for the KD11-F etch revision C or D? From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 05:24:40 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 12:24:40 +0100 Subject: Problem with DEC LSI11 / KD11-F In-Reply-To: References: <547A33F8.3050609@dunnington.plus.com> <547A7570.1090305@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: 2014-11-30 3:48 GMT+01:00 Glen Slick : > For what it's worth these are the versions that I have on my M7264-YB, > which is also non-functional: > > E53 21-15579 Data Chip (ceramic) > E58 2007-C Control Chip (ceramic) > E63 23-003B6 ROM Chip 1 (ceramic hybrid dual chip package) > E70 23-004B5 ROM Chip 2 (plastic) > E75 23-005B5 KEV11 (ceramic) > Then you have the newer revision of the board. The sockets for CPU chips on my board is E41, E47, E52, E56 and E65. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Nov 30 05:31:56 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 06:31:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Problem with DEC LSI11 / KD11-F Message-ID: <20141130113156.8F44E18C100@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > The M7270 board has the following chips: > 1611H 21-15579 > 3007D 23-002B5 > 3010D 23-001B5 > 2007C 23-002C4 I have two M7270s (haven't checked to see if either one works, yet - need a working chassis with an 18-bit backplane, too lazy/busy to pull the removable terminations on my working Sigma Q22). One has: 1611H 21-16890-00 3007D 23-007B5-00 3010D 23-008B5-00 2007C 23-003C4-00 which is fairly different from yours; the date codes range from 8018 to 8021 on the uROMs, and 8029 on the ALU. 1611H 21-16890-00 3007D 23-007B5-00 3010D 23-001B5 2007C 23-002C4-00 which is intermediate between yours, and my first one (but does seem to indicate that to some degree, these things could be mixed, they aren't matched sets). The date codes from the ROMs are 8026, 8041 and 8126, and 8031 on the ALU (so the 002 2007C is later than the 003...) Noel From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 05:32:38 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 12:32:38 +0100 Subject: Problem with DEC LSI11 / KD11-F In-Reply-To: References: <547A33F8.3050609@dunnington.plus.com> <547A7570.1090305@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: 2014-11-30 9:29 GMT+01:00 Eric Smith > > > Those two together are a KEV11-CA DIS (a subset of CIS). I've been > trying to obtain those do dump the contents, as they are fairly rare. How did you do the dumping? The unconditional precharge, conditional discharge structure seems quite elaborate. Or maybe it is just to do have a OC driver enabled at phase 2? Do you have dumps of the micro code? Or are there any publicly available source listing for the micro code? I've got an untested design for a microcontroller-based Microm > emulator that would fit into a Microm socket, but I haven't built one > because I haven't so far had any special microcode I wanted to run. > If dumping is easy (?), now how does this precharge thing work in you emulator? > > Eric > From andy.holt at tesco.net Sun Nov 30 05:41:46 2014 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 11:41:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 + Whetstone benchmmark In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82959659.524784.1417347706563.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> From: "David Brownlee" >>>> The keyboard was all kinds of awful, the mouse had a metal ball that needed the right mat to get any traction and its buttons kept popping off. It made the contemporary sun 3/50 seem like an amazing speed demon, and in a university lab of 20 I'm not sure i ever saw all machines working. People would pick an adm5 in preference to a Whitechapel - for an adm3a the decision was less clear cut. As you can tell, I miss them and wish I had been able to keep hold of one :) <<<< At the University to which abs is referring above, I wrote the operational requirement that led to the the purchase of those machines. I thought I still had a copy but can't find it at the moment. Three proposals made the shortlist: Apollo, Sun, and Whitechapel but, essentially, the MG-1s were the only proposal that offered enough machines to be useful for a teaching room. (for the same money ISTR that Apollo offered 3 machines!, can't remember how many Sun offered but, looking at the benchmark results, they couldn't have had FPUs) At the next major procurement Sun had clearly learned a lesson. We got huge quantities of 386is at a brilliant price (they only guaranteed in the contract to supply the minimal model but a large proportion of them were better than that including some with large colour screens) I acquired one of the (by then) redundant MG-1s but passed it on to someone else when my PC was seriously outperforming it. Talking of benchmark results MG-1 tested at 145 Kwips (slightly worse - 136.5 - non-optimised) Sun (model unknown) at 64.5 (63.5 no) - but for integer results it was /much/ faster than the MG-1 The Gould 9000 supermini we bought at the same time, by comparison rated at 2000* * my notes are confusing - it might have been 2597 (single precision) from 2000 iterations. The ICL 1905E mainframe that we had 6 years earlier rated at 64.9 with the optimising compiler and about 10% better (!!!!) with the non-optimising - CCTA perhaps did too well in making the benchmark resistant to optimisation. From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 06:41:53 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 05:41:53 -0700 Subject: Problem with DEC LSI11 / KD11-F In-Reply-To: References: <547A33F8.3050609@dunnington.plus.com> <547A7570.1090305@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 4:32 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > How did you do the dumping? Supplied power and four-phase 12V MOS clock. Just after start of phase 1, micro drives address on MIB<10..00>, all others high. Just after start of phase 2, micro drives all MIB lines high, waits briefly, then sets all to Hi-Z. Just after start of phase 4, read MIB lines. The missing part is how to dump the PLAs in the control chip. Will probably have to do that optically. > The unconditional precharge, conditional > discharge structure seems quite elaborate. Or maybe it is just to do have a > OC driver enabled at phase 2? Unconditional precharge is easy, it always happens at the same time(s) during the cycle, though MIB<16> and MIB<15> are different than the others. However, the Microm doesn't care; it only requires that they have the address (and /MIB16 high) at the start of phase 2, and then all precharged high once it's latched the address, so it can use conditional discharge to drive the outputs. It's the control and data chips that put more complicated requirements on precharge, but since they're not present when dumping a Microm, those requirements aren't either. Conditional discharge is as you say, just OC drivers. > Do you have dumps of the micro code? I had just dumped one Microm, I think successfully but I don't know with certainty, before I moved 2 1/2 years ago. I haven't found the bits since, so I may have to do it again. Not a big deal since I want to dump other Microms anyhow. > If dumping is easy (?), now how does this precharge thing work in you > emulator? Same as the KUV11, just use the real Microms for precharge. They'll do that even if you ground their enable input. If I really wanted to do precharge in the emulator, I'd add one pFET with series resistor to each MIB line, and inverters from phase 2 and phase 4, and a NAND gate from both, to enable the appropriate FETs. From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Nov 30 07:11:28 2014 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 07:11:28 -0600 Subject: FS: HP 9000 and DEC Alpha machines Message-ID: <20141130131127.GA2212@lonesome.com> [fwiw, is there a better place for FS/Wanted listings? If there's not some kind of 'commerce' site, should we set one up?] As most of you know, I work for a company that decommisions data centers and resells the equipment (usually eBay but sometimes directly). There are a few things in the triage queue that might be of interest to the list members. If there is interest, I'll approach my boss, otherwise they'll be processed as usual. By default we check eBay for the value before listing anything. At the very least we value it at scrap value. And no, I can't take anything out the back door for cheap :-) They're in business to make money. These will all sell without the hard drives per our contracts with our customers. As for the HP and IBM, I have not yet climbed back all the way into the triage area to get more details. The desktops are accessible to me. Of course all of these are listed subject to prior sale. Reply-To set to me personally, but if you have comments e.g. about appropriateness, please feel free to redirect to the list. I'm a big boy, I can take it :-) mcl 3 * Vaxstation 4000 60 (desktop) 1 * Dec 3000 (desktop) 1 * IBM 3490 EC22 (19" rack full) 1 * HP 9000 Model K360 K-Class 9000 (19" rack full) 5 * Digital Personal Workstation 500au (desktop) 2 * Digital Personal Workstation 600a (desktop) 2 * Compaq XP1000 (desktop, appear similar to above) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 30 07:26:07 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 13:26:07 -0000 Subject: Pinout of VAXstation 4000 Power Connector Message-ID: <02f501d00ca1$32e79490$98b6bdb0$@ntlworld.com> I got a VAXstation 4000 Model 96 yesterday. Before I switch it on I want to test the PSU (H7819) on its own, check it for ripple etc. However, I can't find the pinout of the power connector. I don't want to switch it on with no load, to try to work out the pinout. Does anyone have this information? Regards Rob From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Nov 30 08:05:27 2014 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 08:05:27 -0600 Subject: FTGH: 2 Sun 280R machines, etc. (Austin, TX) Message-ID: <20141130140527.GA7054@lonesome.com> These are my personal machines. There is just no more room in the rack for everything I have now. Plus, I would really like to be able to get to the exercise machine again :-) These are 4U dual-processor machines, I think 933MHz each and 4G RAM each. If it really matters I can fire them up and go check. They were both working when last powered on a couple of years ago. (fwiw, the company I work for routinely scraps these, as no one wants to pay for shipping, so I know they're not worth much.) And, if you don't want to run code on them, I will note they make fantastic room-heaters :-) They are known to run FreeBSD. I also have some other stuff that is going to scrap unless someone really wants it. And by "stuff" I mean "junk". 3-4 Sun Netra T1 105s, maybe working, maybe not 2 HP DL360 32-bit machines, actually I have already pulled the pieces, but just in case ... several caddies and blanks for the above 3 Dell PowereEdge 2550s. Dual P-III 933MHz. I have caddies. These are free for anyone who wants them. I can deliver in the Austin area -- but, my car can only hold 4U at one time so if you want more than that you will have to come get it. I will hold on to the Suns for a bit, but the rest I'd rather scrap in the next week or so. mcl From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 08:59:02 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 15:59:02 +0100 Subject: Problem with DEC LSI11 / KD11-F In-Reply-To: <20141130113156.8F44E18C100@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141130113156.8F44E18C100@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2014-11-30 12:31 GMT+01:00 Noel Chiappa : > > > One has: > > 1611H 21-16890-00 > 3007D 23-007B5-00 > 3010D 23-008B5-00 > 2007C 23-003C4-00 > > which is fairly different from yours; the date codes range from 8018 to > 8021 > on the uROMs, and 8029 on the ALU. > > 1611H 21-16890-00 > 3007D 23-007B5-00 > 3010D 23-001B5 > 2007C 23-002C4-00 > > > I checked all three M7270 modules I have here. The revision is stamped on the purple handle. I have, Rev. E, Rev. H and Rev. K All of them are etch revision E. The revision K board has the 1611H 21-15579 instead of 21-11549-01. All has date codes in the range 77-80. I expect your boards to be later revisions. From radiotest at juno.com Sun Nov 30 09:13:29 2014 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 10:13:29 -0500 Subject: IC storage / anti-static foam In-Reply-To: <547A9015.9050809@tdh.com> References: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net> <6DF6E97018004D3DA92DB44513AD17B6@310e2> <547A9015.9050809@tdh.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20141130094118.03ce21f8@juno.com> At 3:37 PM 11/29/2014, Mike Stein wrote: >I had a number of ceramic ICs with gold pins in old anti-static foam; ate the pins right off. At 10:33 PM 11/29/2014, Michael Lee wrote: >What are recommended methods for storing a variety of ICs where they are easily accessible as needed, keeps them safe and for the long term? At 10:56 PM 11/29/2014, Kip Koon wrote: >... have tiny bits of foam stuck to the pins and it won't come off very easily As with many things in this world, the quality of anti-static foam varies greatly. I use foam which I bought in mats from a local electronics distributor (since closed) about 20 years ago. I have some ICs which have been stored in that foam for as long as I have owned it. Their pins are not discolored nor are they stuck to the foam. As for storage, the majority of my IC stock must be carried in the field for work (overstock stays at home). If, for example, I am working on a transmitter and find a bad 4011 on the controller board, I can't get one at Radio Shack. The remaining parts houses in the area are closed on Saturday, so if I find that IC on Friday evening that client will be off the air until Monday if I don't have the part in stock. If it is not in my field parts storage it would be a four- or five-hour round trip (for some clients) to go back home and get one. My main field storage for small parts (resistors, capacitors, semiconductors, fuses, etc.) is a large Plano tackle box: http://www.planomolding.com/product.php?BCCID=111&PID=655 The body holds four large Stowaway boxes. One is compartmented for ICs and other semis, and each IC compartment has three layers of cut-to-fit static foam holding ICs. There are currently 532 ICs in that Stowaway, plus transistors and diodes in storage envelopes, and other semis such as bridge rectifiers. When I leave the house for work I never know what I may face in the field. Although my Explorer cannot hold all of the tools, instruments, and parts that I might need, what I carry is enough to provide a long-term or short-term repair better than 99% of the time. Dale H. Cook, Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 30 10:02:32 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 16:02:32 +0000 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , Message-ID: > > It needs a good set of NiCd cells on the power control board to start it > > up. > > If not, you have to do a 'jumpstart' involving connecting a 9V battery to > > a connector > > on that board. Some owners added an external socket wired there to make it > > easier to so this. > > Another jumpstart option was to boot one up, leave it running for a moment > and then connect it across to the dead machine Quite likely. All it really needed was a voltage to energise the mains swtiching relay. Once the PSU had started up, the relay would be held in until it was turned off by software (this was a trick used on a number of UK unix boxes, the power-off button tells the system to flush buffers, do an orderly shutdown and then turn off the power relay). The method using a 9V battery is official, it's in the technical manual I have somewhere. > > The 32016, 32018 (FPU), MMU chips, etc are in nice turned-pin sockets. The > > EPROMs are in cheap sockets. Replacing the latter sockets will often get a > > dead machine going. > > I think some of them might be early enough that they were still calling > them 16032 Quite likely. The chip was renamed for marketing reasons IIRC (it was a 16 bit chip with 32 bit registers, renamed as a 32 bit chip with a 16 bit bus or some such). [RAM expansion] > There were also some 2M cards made if you needed a lot of memory. It was Yes. The RAM cards were essentially DRAMs and buffers, The 512K one had 4164s, the 2M one 41256s. There were other differences, and I have never tried to turn a 512K one into a 2M one. > possible to stack enough 512K cards that the case would not fit back on, > that did not do much to improve the machines already uncertain reliability. The RAM board connectors were wire-wrap DIN41612s (64 pin AB row). They were soldered to the RAM boards, you could stack the boards by putting the long wire wrap pins of the top board into the sockets on the board below (this was official), There were screwed spacers to support the boards, but it was not uncommon to forget those. At which point you got RAM wobble (as in the ZX81...) [...] > The keyboard was all kinds of awful, the mouse had a metal ball that needed The keyboard was a Keytronics capacitive thing, and feels much like any other. The mouse is one of those Swiss Depraz ones, nice when you get used to it. Its a standard quadrature 3 button mouse, in fact my machine came with a defectrive Depraz mouse (which I repaired) and an Acorn mouse re-wired to work. I am pretty sure the keyboard interface is documented in the manual, it's something like 1200 baud asynchronous so you could always substitute another keyboard if you really hate the WCW one. -tony From scaron at umich.edu Sun Nov 30 10:38:11 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 11:38:11 -0500 Subject: FS: HP 9000 and DEC Alpha machines In-Reply-To: <20141130131127.GA2212@lonesome.com> References: <20141130131127.GA2212@lonesome.com> Message-ID: I'd love to have a 4000/60 someday but you know how the retail prices are for those; off the wall. My target price on them is in the neighborhood of $200-250 for something in good shape... not necessarily "maxed out" but not beat up or missing major parts. I dunno, I've been stricken with car trouble this week so I probably don't have anything to spend on vintage computers anyway, but, if the price is right... maybe I could sell some plasma or something, LOL. Are you gunning for full eBay price on these? The PWS systems are nice little machines too but I still have a hard time considering something with a PCI bus to be vintage & collectible ;) Best, Sean On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 8:11 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > [fwiw, is there a better place for FS/Wanted listings? If there's not > some kind of 'commerce' site, should we set one up?] > > As most of you know, I work for a company that decommisions data centers > and resells the equipment (usually eBay but sometimes directly). There > are a few things in the triage queue that might be of interest to the > list members. If there is interest, I'll approach my boss, otherwise > they'll be processed as usual. > > By default we check eBay for the value before listing anything. At > the very least we value it at scrap value. And no, I can't take anything > out the back door for cheap :-) They're in business to make money. > > These will all sell without the hard drives per our contracts with > our customers. As for the HP and IBM, I have not yet climbed back all > the way into the triage area to get more details. The desktops are > accessible to me. > > Of course all of these are listed subject to prior sale. > > Reply-To set to me personally, but if you have comments e.g. about > appropriateness, please feel free to redirect to the list. I'm a > big boy, I can take it :-) > > mcl > > 3 * Vaxstation 4000 60 (desktop) > 1 * Dec 3000 (desktop) > 1 * IBM 3490 EC22 (19" rack full) > 1 * HP 9000 Model K360 K-Class 9000 (19" rack full) > 5 * Digital Personal Workstation 500au (desktop) > 2 * Digital Personal Workstation 600a (desktop) > 2 * Compaq XP1000 (desktop, appear similar to above) > > From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Nov 30 10:50:58 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 10:50:58 -0600 Subject: Cyber ECL Wiring In-Reply-To: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> Message-ID: <547B4AF2.5020902@pico-systems.com> On 11/29/2014 10:40 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > "It didn't start with the 170, did it Billy? I remember a nice thick mat > of twisted-pair wires on the backplanes of 6000s, as well as in a lot of > attached controllers. Taper pin technology." > > You're right - the 170 was the first use of main frame wire wrap at CDC. I've never seen any other machine that used twisted pair wire wrap. DEC KL10B had a lot of twisted pair wire-wrap on the backplane. VAX 11/780 had critical clock signals on twisted pair wire-wrap. These were, in fact, ECL signals. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Nov 30 10:59:19 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 10:59:19 -0600 Subject: Cyber ECL Wiring In-Reply-To: <547AB8E6.8080604@sydex.com> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> <547AB8E6.8080604@sydex.com> Message-ID: <547B4CE7.50602@pico-systems.com> On 11/30/2014 12:27 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > There was also some sort of stapled-wire technology that > was automated. I don't recall the name of it. > There was something I think was called stitch bond. Wire that looked very much like wire-wrap wire, but probably had thinned insulation was ultrasonically bonded to flat posts on the board. I have some military-grade gear with flat pack chips that used this much like one would make wire-wrap cards. But, they were very compact and hardly thicker than a standard PC board. Then, there was the system that came before wire-wrap. It had rectangular posts on card edge connectors, and I think the wire was stranded. There was a "gun" that had a roll of little tin-plated clips. You stuck the wire into the gun, and squeezed the handle. It drove a clip onto the pin, pinching the wire through the insulation. I've forgotten the name of this system, too. This was used for connecting up standard logic boards into a backplane, not for use at the chip level. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 30 11:47:15 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 09:47:15 -0800 Subject: Cyber ECL Wiring In-Reply-To: <547B4CE7.50602@pico-systems.com> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> <547AB8E6.8080604@sydex.com> <547B4CE7.50602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <547B5823.6040901@sydex.com> On 11/30/2014 08:59 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > There was something I think was called stitch bond. Wire that looked > very much like > wire-wrap wire, but probably had thinned insulation was ultrasonically > bonded to > flat posts on the board. I have some military-grade gear with flat pack > chips that > used this much like one would make wire-wrap cards. But, they were very > compact > and hardly thicker than a standard PC board. This, I think. Back in the 60s it was advertised somewhat in trade rags. My impression was that it saw use in military applications, but that was just an impression. Apparently, very high writing density could be achieved. --Chuck From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Nov 30 11:51:32 2014 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 09:51:32 -0800 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <547AB401.6080602@sydex.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> <547AB401.6080602@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 29 Nov 2014, at 22:06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Probably not enough turkey leavings on it? +1 :) -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Nov 30 11:54:26 2014 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 09:54:26 -0800 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On 29 Nov 2014, at 20:14, drlegendre . wrote: > That's what I was wondering - whether it was as sensitive to an > open-circuit as to an excessively short one. > > Do you know what the open-circuit concerns are? Is it one of those supplies > that just can't tolerate being unloaded? My suspicion is that this is actually in the same category as the control lock that?s supposed to deter children; being the US this smells like someone came up with a novel product liability theory and someone decide to drop a few extra lines of code in order to appease the corporate legal types. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From tsg at bonedaddy.net Sun Nov 30 12:09:53 2014 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 13:09:53 -0500 Subject: Seeking the following items In-Reply-To: <54760C33.60803@gmail.com> References: <54760C33.60803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20141130180952.GI31120@ns1.bonedaddy.net> You should pay people what you owe them before looking to purchase items for yourself. Todd * Steven Landon [141126 12:22]: > Hey guys i know its a shot in the dark, But im looking for the > following for my old high school machine. > > NEC MultiSync 3D monitor > OmniKey AT Keyboard > Logitech Mouseman 3 Button Mouse > > > Thanks again From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Nov 30 12:43:32 2014 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 12:43:32 -0600 Subject: FS: HP 9000 and DEC Alpha machines In-Reply-To: References: <20141130131127.GA2212@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20141130184332.GC26771@lonesome.com> On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 11:38:11AM -0500, Sean Caron wrote: > Are you gunning for full eBay price on these? I think I'll get fired if I don't get full price for them :-) mcl From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 12:44:48 2014 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 12:44:48 -0600 Subject: FS: HP 9000 and DEC Alpha machines In-Reply-To: <20141130131127.GA2212@lonesome.com> References: <20141130131127.GA2212@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 7:11 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > [fwiw, is there a better place for FS/Wanted listings? If there's not > some kind of 'commerce' site, should we set one up?] I don't speak for anyone else but I think legitimate actually classiccomp for-sale postings are a regular thing here. I know I appreciate knowing about what's available. That said, there may be a wider/different audience at the VC Forums here: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/forum.php. I'd use both. Also, where are you and the equipment located? -j From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Nov 30 12:47:43 2014 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 12:47:43 -0600 Subject: FS: HP 9000 and DEC Alpha machines In-Reply-To: References: <20141130131127.GA2212@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20141130184743.GE26771@lonesome.com> On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 12:44:48PM -0600, Jason T wrote: > That said, there may be a wider/different audience at the VC Forums here: > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/forum.php. I'd use both. ok, thanks. > Also, where are you and the equipment located? Sorry. Austin, Texas, USA. mcl From scaron at umich.edu Sun Nov 30 12:52:10 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 13:52:10 -0500 Subject: FS: HP 9000 and DEC Alpha machines In-Reply-To: <20141130184332.GC26771@lonesome.com> References: <20141130131127.GA2212@lonesome.com> <20141130184332.GC26771@lonesome.com> Message-ID: Oh well, gotta ask, right? ;) I am 100% for anyone coming in and posting any-and-all equipment available whether it's for sale or for free, so long as the equipment is nominally relevant to the charter of the list. It's nice to have alternate channels to find gear and make deals outside of eBay. I will never be bothered by "stuff available"! Best, Sean On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 11:38:11AM -0500, Sean Caron wrote: > > Are you gunning for full eBay price on these? > > I think I'll get fired if I don't get full price for them :-) > > mcl > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 30 13:04:52 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 11:04:52 -0800 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> <547AB401.6080602@sydex.com> Message-ID: <547B6A54.7020406@sydex.com> On 11/30/2014 09:51 AM, Christian Kennedy wrote: Sometime this week, I think I'm going to experiment and see if the induction cooker would make a great bulk eraser for floppies and tapes. --Chuck From isking at uw.edu Sun Nov 30 13:07:35 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 11:07:35 -0800 Subject: EDSAC lives In-Reply-To: <00bb01d00c77$ddc87d90$995978b0$@gmail.com> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> <20141130051301.821A52073C28@huey.classiccmp.org> <873B8F54-073D-4BEB-BA1C-49468499DEC8@cs.ubc.ca> <00bb01d00c77$ddc87d90$995978b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would vote for the Whirlwind. In addition to an interesting architecture, the machine has a fascinating history! -- Ian On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 12:30 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > I would say that in the US you have CHM and the LCM which exhibit working > mainframes. There are also MARCH and the New Jersey (I think) Museums which > show working machines. In the UK several working exhibits have been > "mothballed". The Science Museum has discontinued Pegasus demos, my project > to restore some of the Pegasus i/o equipment at MOSI has been suspended, > and > the Hartree Differential Analyser is to be removed from display. Personally > I would rather that money was expended on keeping real mainframes running > rather than building replicas, > > I also note that the Baby Replica at MOSI is now around 16 years old, it > first ran in 1998. Its almost an artefact in its own right... > > Dave Wade > G4UGM > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > > Hilpert > > Sent: 30 November 2014 07:48 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: EDSAC lives > > > > So, we have the ABC, Colossus, Manchester Baby, and now the EDSAC. > > > > Anyone for the ENIAC? Univac I? IAS machine? Whirlwind? > > > > How come 3 of the 4 are in Britain? > > > > > > On 2014-Nov-29, at 9:12 PM, John Foust wrote: > > > The National Museum of Computing unveils EDSAC re-creation: > > > > > > http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-30131447 > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS Ph.D. Candidate The Information School University of Washington An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 30 13:38:05 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 19:38:05 +0000 Subject: FS: HP 9000 and DEC Alpha machines In-Reply-To: References: <20141130131127.GA2212@lonesome.com>, Message-ID: > > I don't speak for anyone else but I think legitimate actually I don't speak for anyone else either. > classiccomp for-sale postings are a regular thing here. I know I > appreciate knowing about what's available. That said, there may be a > wider/different audience at the VC Forums here: > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/forum.php. I'd use both. The original charter of this list specifically allowed adverts provided they were related to classic computing. Which I have always understood to mean classic computers, parts thereof, software for them, etc. And IMHO related test gear and tools (if somebody has a logic analyser for sale, say, I don't see why it shouldn't be mentioned here). But I am not the list owner or moderator, so the above may not be correct now. > Also, where are you and the equipment located? Yes. This is an international list, and the world is a big place. Shipping some of these items would be difficult and expensive, if it's possible at all. So could people please give the general location (at least town, state, country or whatever is applicable). -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 30 13:45:43 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 11:45:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <547B6A54.7020406@sydex.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> <547AB401.6080602@sydex.com> <547B6A54.7020406@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141130114424.O34843@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Sometime this week, I think I'm going to experiment and see if the > induction cooker would make a great bulk eraser for floppies and tapes. But, don't damage it with Wabash! From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Sun Nov 30 14:03:45 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 20:03:45 +0000 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1045D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jacob Dahl Pind Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 7:26 AM > On the talk of copyright status on TOPS-10/20 on the hecnet maillist, it > was hinted at tops-20 where used embedded for routers from XKL, running on > reimplemnted pdp10 hardware. > > Unfortunately I do not have much details. I was at the Living Computer Museum > and talked with RIch Alderson, who used to work at XKL. And he showed me a > newer generation router from XKL, opened up, at LCM. And they use a PDP-10 on > a chip, and it was actually running TOPS-20, and I could play around at the > EXEC level in there. > > Findes it somewhat hard to imagine anyone would take 36bit architectur and > build a router around it. > But it does seem posible they really do, I visisted > ftp://xkl.com/pub/download/ > tar xvf DarkStar_v3.0.0.tgz > and looking in upgrade-example.txt > I sees things as > System Processor (XKL-2) > 2. XMH-1 (256MW), Testing: SDdAa, on line at LPN o0 > Reading 0704 pages > 0704000 words read in 36 bit mode > .. > Its alive! who would have though that The Toad-2 processors (each router contains a redundant pair)are not the routing engines in the DarkStar products from XKL. Routing at those speeds (OC-192, 10G Ethernet, etc.) is handled directly at the connector. However, when a router is powered up, or when configurations are changed, it is useful to have a real operating system with well known tools available to make those operations simpler. This was a felt need as far back as the SUN boards used on the 3Mbit PUP network created at Stanford before there as ever a company called cisco Systems (and that was the original spelling). As the late Mark Crispin was fond of saying, TOPS-20 is a great improvement on its successors, so the extended PDP-10 architecture of the Toad-1 was implemented in a Xilinx FPGA, with further extensions to the OS, and the Toad-2 came into being. NB: I worked at XKL for 10 years before coming to my present job 11 years ago. Putting the Toad-1 into an FPGA was an experiment when I left. I was ecstatic to learn of the success of the Toad-2 a few years later, but not really surprised. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Sun Nov 30 14:11:19 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 20:11:19 +0000 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> References: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1047B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Pontus Pihlgren Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 7:44 AM > The system refered to above is visible next to the TOAD-1 in this video > clip, arround 30 seconds in. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We3BEaiz194 > I've know for a while that it's been a 36 bit machine under the hood but > I was told that it is limited in some way, perhaps not a full pager. It > would be fun to get some details. (And if you can get one for yourself > of course). I'm not aware of any architectural limitations to the Toad-2. It may be that the idea that it is limited in some arose from the fact that, like any other general purpose CPU, it's not fast enough to be the routing engine in the applications for which the DarkStar line is intended. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 14:18:59 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 14:18:59 -0600 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <547B6A54.7020406@sydex.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> <547AB401.6080602@sydex.com> <547B6A54.7020406@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/30/2014 09:51 AM, Christian Kennedy wrote: > > > Sometime this week, I think I'm going to experiment and see if the > induction cooker would make a great bulk eraser for floppies and tapes. In the process, you might also stumble upon another method of secure data destruction. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 30 14:19:32 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 12:19:32 -0800 Subject: Cyber ECL Wiring In-Reply-To: <547B4CE7.50602@pico-systems.com> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> <547AB8E6.8080604@sydex.com> <547B4CE7.50602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <7FF08A3A-8A3F-4552-8DA7-FDD54D143F00@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Nov-30, at 8:59 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > > Then, there was the system that came before wire-wrap. It had rectangular > posts on card edge connectors, and I think the wire was stranded. There was > a "gun" that had a roll of little tin-plated clips. You stuck the wire into the > gun, and squeezed the handle. It drove a clip onto the pin, pinching the > wire through the insulation. I've forgotten the name of this system, too. > This was used for connecting up standard logic boards into a backplane, > not for use at the chip level. > > Jon Would that be these?: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/HP2116C/crimps.jpg http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/HP2116C/backplane.jpg It's the backplane of an HP2116C. I've always wondered what the tradename for the technique was. Looks like in these machines the wire was stripped before crimping though. From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Sun Nov 30 14:27:36 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 20:27:36 +0000 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: References: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D104A8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Sean Caron Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 8:14 AM > Whaaa? That's actually something a little bit different; I didn't even > know there was such a thing as a TOAD-2. It's fun to learn new things, isn't it? :-) > Does anyone here know how many units of the TOAD-2 were ever sold? Who > bought them? I imagine that that's company confidential information held at XKL, but Johnny is correct. They're still building and selling routers. > That board looks so close to mini-ITX form factor... they should start > selling them bare... it would look great next to my Atom boxes!! In order to make a profit on them as single-board systems, they would need to be priced in the $8000-$10,000 range, so not a hobbyist purchase for most of us. (They aren't built to be used outside of the 1U unit in which they reside as part of the larger router product, so aren't priced separately. The amounts above are educated guesses based on experience with the company.) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 14:28:25 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 12:28:25 -0800 Subject: 3M "WhisperPrinter" (Trendcom 100) docs? Message-ID: <547B7DE9.3000601@gmail.com> Picked this up for nearly nothing at a local recycler, it was too cute to pass up. It's a 3M "WhisperPrinter" (model 1904AA), and it's a small (40 column, 4.5" wide) thermal printer with a serial interface. It appears to work (runs a self-test if you hold the line feed button while powering on) but I don't know what the pinout for the interface on the rear is (it's a 20-pin header). This looks to be a rebadged Trendcom 100 (which I can also find very little technical info about) used on a number of early home computers (Atari, TRS-80, PET). Anyone happen to have a manual for this? Thanks, Josh From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Nov 30 14:28:42 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 15:28:42 -0500 Subject: HP engineering excellence - was Re: Cyber ECL Wiring In-Reply-To: <7FF08A3A-8A3F-4552-8DA7-FDD54D143F00@cs.ubc.ca> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> <547AB8E6.8080604@sydex.com> <547B4CE7.50602@pico-systems.com> <7FF08A3A-8A3F-4552-8DA7-FDD54D143F00@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <547B7DFA.7030200@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/11/14 3:19 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2014-Nov-30, at 8:59 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >> >> Then, there was the system that came before wire-wrap. It had rectangular >> posts on card edge connectors, and I think the wire was stranded. There was >> a "gun" that had a roll of little tin-plated clips. You stuck the wire into the >> gun, and squeezed the handle. It drove a clip onto the pin, pinching the >> wire through the insulation. I've forgotten the name of this system, too. >> This was used for connecting up standard logic boards into a backplane, >> not for use at the chip level. >> >> Jon > > Would that be these?: > > http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/HP2116C/crimps.jpg > http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/HP2116C/backplane.jpg Lovely. One can see HP's famous devotion to engineering here. --Toby > > It's the backplane of an HP2116C. > I've always wondered what the tradename for the technique was. > Looks like in these machines the wire was stripped before crimping though. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 30 14:57:05 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 12:57:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3M "WhisperPrinter" (Trendcom 100) docs? In-Reply-To: <547B7DE9.3000601@gmail.com> References: <547B7DE9.3000601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20141130125515.Y35631@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Josh Dersch wrote: > Picked this up for nearly nothing at a local recycler, it was too cute > to pass up. It's a 3M "WhisperPrinter" (model 1904AA), and it's a small > (40 column, 4.5" wide) thermal printer with a serial interface. It Are you sure? I used to have several PARALLEL port Trendcom 100s. Does yours SAY "serial"? > appears to work (runs a self-test if you hold the line feed button while > powering on) but I don't know what the pinout for the interface on the > rear is (it's a 20-pin header). > This looks to be a rebadged Trendcom 100 (which I can also find very > little technical info about) used on a number of early home computers > (Atari, TRS-80, PET). Anyone happen to have a manual for this? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 30 14:59:55 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 12:59:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: IC storage / anti-static foam In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20141130094118.03ce21f8@juno.com> References: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net> <6DF6E97018004D3DA92DB44513AD17B6@310e2> <547A9015.9050809@tdh.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141130094118.03ce21f8@juno.com> Message-ID: <20141130125839.F35631@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Dale H. Cook wrote: > As with many things in this world, the quality of anti-static foam > varies greatly. I use foam which I bought in mats from a local > electronics distributor (since closed) about 20 years ago. I have some > ICs which have been stored in that foam for as long as I have owned it. > Their pins are not discolored nor are they stuck to the foam. "quality" also as in TYPE. The worst offenders of all have been the "Highest quality" and most expensive of the foams. From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Sun Nov 30 15:02:42 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 21:02:42 +0000 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: tony duell Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2014 8:03 AM >> I think some of them might be early enough that they were still calling >> them 16032 > Quite likely. The chip was renamed for marketing reasons IIRC (it was a 16 > bit chip with 32 bit registers, renamed as a 32 bit chip with a 16 bit bus > or some such). It was renamed after the 32032 hit the market, same architecture with 32-bit external data paths instead of the 16 bits of the earlier chip. Somewhere in the storage locker I still have original data sheets for both. I think. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 30 15:07:31 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 13:07:31 -0800 Subject: HP engineering excellence - was Re: Cyber ECL Wiring In-Reply-To: <547B7DFA.7030200@telegraphics.com.au> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> <547AB8E6.8080604@sydex.com> <547B4CE7.50602@pico-systems.com> <7FF08A3A-8A3F-4552-8DA7-FDD54D143F00@cs.ubc.ca> <547B7DFA.7030200@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <9041BD68-6A41-46CB-9498-F96E6D24024D@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Nov-30, at 12:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 30/11/14 3:19 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2014-Nov-30, at 8:59 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >>> >>> Then, there was the system that came before wire-wrap. It had rectangular >>> posts on card edge connectors, and I think the wire was stranded. There was >>> a "gun" that had a roll of little tin-plated clips. You stuck the wire into the >>> gun, and squeezed the handle. It drove a clip onto the pin, pinching the >>> wire through the insulation. I've forgotten the name of this system, too. >>> This was used for connecting up standard logic boards into a backplane, >>> not for use at the chip level. >>> >>> Jon >> >> Would that be these?: >> >> http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/HP2116C/crimps.jpg >> http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/HP2116C/backplane.jpg > > Lovely. One can see HP's famous devotion to engineering here. The 2116 is amazing even just from the mechanical engineering. Looking at the backplane picture, the major frame pieces are cast aluminum. Then notice the solid 1.5-by-0.5-inch machined aluminum rails which the backplane slides out on. Two of the rails split in half - you can see the stainless-steel alignment pins on the ends of the rails, and the backplane swings open - the other two rails have integral hinges. I should make a video showing this in action. The rail structure is quite hidden, when I first got the machine it was quite perplexing and I dismantled it from all angles trying to figure out how to get inside, before realising what was going on. > --Toby > >> >> It's the backplane of an HP2116C. >> I've always wondered what the tradename for the technique was. >> Looks like in these machines the wire was stripped before crimping though. >> From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 30 15:19:49 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 13:19:49 -0800 Subject: IC storage / anti-static foam In-Reply-To: <20141130125839.F35631@shell.lmi.net> References: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net> <6DF6E97018004D3DA92DB44513AD17B6@310e2> <547A9015.9050809@tdh.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141130094118.03ce21f8@juno.com> <20141130125839.F35631@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <547B89F5.2090801@sydex.com> On 11/30/2014 12:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > The worst offenders of all have been the "Highest quality" and most > expensive of the foams. The cheapest variety of this stuff (and the least subject to degradation) for me has been polystyrene foam painted with some sort of black conductive paint. I recall that expensive DIPs were sometimes shipped with a molded rubber retainer that also protected the pins. Tubes are good, however. --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 15:22:43 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 13:22:43 -0800 Subject: 3M "WhisperPrinter" (Trendcom 100) docs? In-Reply-To: <20141130125515.Y35631@shell.lmi.net> References: <547B7DE9.3000601@gmail.com> <20141130125515.Y35631@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <547B8AA3.9040305@gmail.com> On 11/30/2014 12:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Picked this up for nearly nothing at a local recycler, it was too cute >> to pass up. It's a 3M "WhisperPrinter" (model 1904AA), and it's a small >> (40 column, 4.5" wide) thermal printer with a serial interface. It > Are you sure? > I used to have several PARALLEL port Trendcom 100s. > Does yours SAY "serial"? It does not specifically say "serial", but there's a label under the lid that describes jumper settings for baud rates (300 through 9600). That said, I don't actually see where these jumpers actually *are* (there is a suspicious looking cutout behind which is just empty space) so it's possible that it actually is parallel but still has the baud rate label for no good reason. I agree that the 20-pin interface would be more conducive to parallel rather than serial. - Josh > >> appears to work (runs a self-test if you hold the line feed button while >> powering on) but I don't know what the pinout for the interface on the >> rear is (it's a 20-pin header). >> This looks to be a rebadged Trendcom 100 (which I can also find very >> little technical info about) used on a number of early home computers >> (Atari, TRS-80, PET). Anyone happen to have a manual for this? From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Nov 30 15:37:12 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 13:37:12 -0800 Subject: IC storage / anti-static foam In-Reply-To: <547B89F5.2090801@sydex.com> References: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net> <6DF6E97018004D3DA92DB44513AD17B6@310e2> <547A9015.9050809@tdh.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141130094118.03ce21f8@juno.com> <20141130125839.F35631@shell.lmi.net> <547B89F5.2090801@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1BA77610-04B4-43B4-B631-00BE764D11DF@nf6x.net> Note that the clear IC tubes do *not* provide any protection against static electricity; they just don't generate any *additional* static charge from items rubbing against them (such as from the ICs jiggling around during shipping, rubbing against other items, etc.) like untreated plastics can. They aren't conductive enough to protect against external zaps. The same goes for the pink antistatic bags; those don't create additional static charges during handling like plain plastic bags do, but they also don't protect their contents from external zaps. At all! To protect from external charges, you can use things like the black foam for DIPs (which has a relatively high conductivity in order to keep the pins of an IC at the same potential), the silver bags (which protect contents *when sealed* by forming a Faraday cage around them), etc. Here's a good video demonstrating the difference between anti-static/static-dissipative packaging (pink stuff, DIP tubes, etc.) vs. static *shielding* packaging (silver bags, black conductive bags, black ESD-shielding totes, etc.): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imdtXcnywb8 -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 15:47:57 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 15:47:57 -0600 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <547B908D.3070400@gmail.com> On 11/30/2014 12:51 AM, tony duell wrote: > It needs a good set of NiCd cells on the power control board to start it up. > If not, you have to do a 'jumpstart' involving connecting a 9V battery to a connector > on that board. Some owners added an external socket wired there to make it > easier to so this. I think I've seen four of the machines in total; every single one of them had suffered significant corrosion to the main PCB beneath because of the batteries. > There is a rare adapter which adds 3 ISA slots. 8 bit ones IIRC. I know the CG-200 at NMoC has such an adapter. I've actually got a photo of it here - it has 3x 8-bit ISA slots toward the rear of the system, as you say, but then there are PCB traces at the other end of the adapter board for three 64-pin sockets, although only one is physically fitted on NMoC's machine. Purpose unknown, and it'd be interesting to know if anything ever made use of it. That particular system has an ISA serial board and some flavour of ISA video board (whatever the latter is, it has 8x 41264 dual-port RAM chips, and there's a 20-way ribbon cable attached which runs off somewhere beneath the ISA adapter board). Unfortunately the machine - like the MG-1's - had also suffered significant corrosion. cheers Jules From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 15:52:05 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 14:52:05 -0700 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: >> > The 32016, 32018 (FPU), MMU chips, etc are in nice turned-pin sockets. The >> > EPROMs are in cheap sockets. Replacing the latter sockets will often get a >> > dead machine going. >> >> I think some of them might be early enough that they were still calling >> them 16032 > > Quite likely. The chip was renamed for marketing reasons IIRC (it was a 16 bit chip > with 32 bit registers, renamed as a 32 bit chip with a 16 bit bus or some such). The processor part numbers changed from NSxxnyy to NSyynxx, and IIRC some of the peripherals changed from NS16nnn to NS32nnn. This caused great confusion if you had a NS32032, because there was no easy way to tell whether that specific part was in the old-style or new-style numbering. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 30 15:55:18 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 21:55:18 -0000 Subject: Random DEC Questions Message-ID: <034701d00ce8$54ec4260$fec4c720$@ntlworld.com> I just collected a nice little "haul" of DEC gear yesterday and have some questions: One of the things I got was an RA60 drive. But it doesn't have any packs. Does anyone in the UK have any RA60 packs they would be willing to part with? I also got a VT320, but it looks to be a 100-120V model. Is it possible to convert these easily to 220-240V? I discovered that there is a little MMJ to RJ45 adapter called a H8584. I know I can make cables that would remove the need for these, but they look quite handy. Anyone in the UK have any of these spare? I got a DECserver 900TM (see earlier thread about WWEN2.SYS). Manx has an installation manual on it, but not a detailed operations manual. I don't have the Flash RAM card which I guess is needed to persist the boot image without having to boot off the network. Does anyone know what kind of card it needs? I am told it is a CF card, but it looks like it needs some kind of holder to hold the card, and I don't know how the image would get onto the CF card, unless it does that itself after loading from the network. Regards Rob From b4 at gewt.net Sun Nov 30 15:57:18 2014 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 16:57:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Random DEC Questions In-Reply-To: <034701d00ce8$54ec4260$fec4c720$@ntlworld.com> References: <034701d00ce8$54ec4260$fec4c720$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I also got a VT320, but it looks to be a 100-120V model. Is it possible to > convert these easily to 220-240V? > Do you have the version with permanently attached power cord? If so...I do not believe that one can be. I'm pretty sure the international model can be, though. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 30 15:57:30 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 13:57:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: camera damage from "the best" foam In-Reply-To: References: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net>, <7FD33E17-D0F9-4F71-93C0-3AC35D47023E@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20141130130008.B35631@shell.lmi.net> > > When my best friend was alive, he stored his camera stuff in airtight > > cases in foam. > > After his death, I went through what was left of his stuff. > > One case had a Visoflex, bellows, and a Leitz Tele-Elmarit 180mm M > > Visoflex mount lens. 250 of those were made. One in decent shape goes > > for $2K. His was brand-new, quite possibly the last, and only one in > > perfect shape. The foam ATE into the barrel of the lens, destroying all > > collector value. > > You really know how to hurt a person, don't you? I use both film and digital Leica M's, including the Visoflex > bellows and lenses, so this is a seriously painful story. That is one of the rarest Leica lenses around. After Chris had a heart attack and died in my kitchen, the loss of his camera gear was anti-climactic. In addition to the foam damage, the main body of his camera stuff was missing! (stolen by the county agents who "secured" his house?) A week before his death, we were taking some snapshots at Point Lobos, and he promised to dig out and loan me [permanently!] a 35mm summicron, and my choice of rigid or collapsible 50mm summicrons. I was also listed for the cameras in his most recent will, although the house is slated for somebody else. But, when we got access to the house, there were some gaps on some of the shelves. I would have kept one M body, and the summicrons, and sold off whatever else duplicated what I already have. How many bellows and how many 90mm Elmars can one want? On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, tony duell wrote: > Ouch indeed. I have a small amount of Leica M stuff (M2 and M4 bodies, > visoflex, 4 lenses, nothing rare). It's beautiful, although I must say > that I prefer a Nikon F to the Leica M+visoflex. So do I. I would have kept my old visoflex and bellows, and sold off the Tele-elmarit and some of the rest. I sold the 180 Viso-M Tele-Elmarit to KEH. They've [probably PAINTED it and] listed it for $1272 in "bargain (damaged) condition". > Fred, was this lens still usable after that. The barrel was pitted, I > guess, but did the focussing mount still work and was the optics OK. I > use my cameras, I don't collect them, so cosmetic damage is not so > significant (I picked up a Nikkor 180mm for a very good price because > somebody had scratched an inventory number on the barrel. Optically > perfect, so still an excellent lens) The glass came through OK! There might be some very minor damage to the front coating. The focusing still works, but not as smoothly, and has one rough spot. The lens barrel was a lot worse than a simple asset marking; it looks like a kid was playing with an engraver, and then stored it in a puddle. Frankly, anybody needing something in the 180mm range has a lot of [in my opinion] better options in newer gear. For example, my rangefinder coupled 200mm Komura or ANY SLR with a 200mm lens is WAY more convenient and easier to use than visoflex plus 180mm tele-elmarit - THAT is an extraordinary amount of weight and bulk. Therefore, the primary value of that lens would have been to a collector who wants the RARE aspect, and they want it to look good. Cosmetic damage is significant in THAT market. One of Chris' other friends really wanted the 2-1/4 x 3-1/4 Graflex with lenses, so I let him have it, but I kept the 47mm Super-Angulon which might even cover 4x5! I am now making adapters to put it on a tilt/swivel bellows for playing with movements on medium format, 35mm, and digital. Not very difficult - it's on a Compur 00?, which seems to be the same threads as what Schneider used for some enlarging lenses. When I first opened the case, everything felt WET. I thought that I was dealing with water damage. But, a few hours later, the foam had further metamorphed into a dry crumbly powder. Chris was doing his laundry at my house (last load was in my dryer). Does anybody here want a whole bunch of size XXL/2XL Cabela's shirts? How many BIG guys are there here? I've mentioned, on this list his PBM1000 computers (made by Wordstar corp, while it was still Micropro). But those, his books from the 1980s and 1990s, and his Sperry PCs got dumpstered before I got a chance to rescue them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From b4 at gewt.net Sun Nov 30 16:01:18 2014 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 17:01:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Random DEC Questions In-Reply-To: References: <034701d00ce8$54ec4260$fec4c720$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> >> I also got a VT320, but it looks to be a 100-120V model. Is it possible to >> convert these easily to 220-240V? >> > > Do you have the version with permanently attached power cord? If so...I do > not believe that one can be. I'm pretty sure the international model can be, > though. > I should say...cannot be converted with a simple moving of a jumper. >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> >> Rob >> >> > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Nov 30 16:24:45 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 16:24:45 -0600 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <547B992D.7050502@pico-systems.com> On 11/30/2014 11:54 AM, Christian Kennedy wrote: > My suspicion is that this is actually in the same category > as the control lock that?s supposed to deter children; > being the US this smells like someone came up with a novel > product liability theory and someone decide to drop a few > extra lines of code in order to appease the corporate > legal types. Yes, and if left to reach completion, they will have you buying all your pots and pans with serial numbers that match the stove. All others will be refused. Oh, maybe that is only for printer cartridges. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Nov 30 16:28:48 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 16:28:48 -0600 Subject: Cyber ECL Wiring In-Reply-To: <7FF08A3A-8A3F-4552-8DA7-FDD54D143F00@cs.ubc.ca> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> <547AB8E6.8080604@sydex.com> <547B4CE7.50602@pico-systems.com> <7FF08A3A-8A3F-4552-8DA7-FDD54D143F00@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <547B9A20.9080709@pico-systems.com> On 11/30/2014 02:19 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Would that be these?: > http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/HP2116C/crimps.jpg > http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/HP2116C/backplane.jpg > It's the backplane of an HP2116C. I've always wondered > what the tradename for the technique was. Looks like in > these machines the wire was stripped before crimping though. Yes, that's it. No, I am PRETTY sure the tool stripped the wire as it was terminated. I actually worked at a place that used this system, that was in 1969. I believe the system came from AMP, but i could be wrong on that. Jon From evan at snarc.net Sun Nov 30 14:02:24 2014 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 15:02:24 -0500 Subject: EDSAC lives In-Reply-To: <873B8F54-073D-4BEB-BA1C-49468499DEC8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> <20141130051301.821A52073C28@huey.classiccmp.org> <873B8F54-073D-4BEB-BA1C-49468499DEC8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <547B77D0.2080209@snarc.net> > Anyone for the ENIAC? I'm very friendly with the Mauchly / Eckert families and I know for fact that they want to do something similar. But there are the usual obstacles: space and money. Their primary goal is to gather all the remaining ENIAC pieces (which are curently are various museums around the world) and replicate the missing pieces. However they would also be happy with a full-scale replica. We do have the space at the InfoAge museum here in NJ; naturally the families would prefer a location in metro Philadelphia. From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Nov 30 16:36:32 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 16:36:32 -0600 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> On 11/30/2014 03:02 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: tony duell > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2014 8:03 AM > >>> I think some of them might be early enough that they were still calling >>> them 16032 >> Quite likely. The chip was renamed for marketing reasons IIRC (it was a 16 >> bit chip with 32 bit registers, renamed as a 32 bit chip with a 16 bit bus >> or some such). > It was renamed after the 32032 hit the market, same architecture with 32-bit > external data paths instead of the 16 bits of the earlier chip. Somewhere > in the storage locker I still have original data sheets for both. I think. > > Ahh, the NAT Semi 16032/32016! I have a bunch of them here on Multibus boards. I built a multiprocessor system for reducing nuclear experiment data faster than a VAX 11/780 could. it was marginally faster, but not enough of an improvement for our general users to jump on it. I did clone a Logical Microcomputer Co. 16032 system running Genix, and get it working at home. It was a DOG! Possibly my memory and memory interface was too slow for it, but it was just barely usable. This was the 16-bit variant. it was a full 32-bit architecture with a 16-bit external interface. The 16032 was later renamed the 32016, 32-bit architecture, 16-bit external bus. They also had the 32032, full 32-bit external bus, lots faster. Jon From useddec at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 16:55:49 2014 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 16:55:49 -0600 Subject: OT: camera damage from "the best" foam In-Reply-To: <20141130130008.B35631@shell.lmi.net> References: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net> <7FD33E17-D0F9-4F71-93C0-3AC35D47023E@aracnet.com> <20141130130008.B35631@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Are there any Leitz microscope collectors on the list? I wasn't planning on putting this here but about a month or so ago I got a call from a friend of a friend and picked up a nice collection of Leitz (and some very old options), Olympus, Nikon, Reichert, and Zeiss microscopes and options. I hang on to the Zeiss. There was a Leitz micro photography kit with book in leather case. All looked unused and I'm guessing were from around 1900 or so. No copyright in the book. I'm always interested in hearing about Zeiss items. I'm sorry about the loss of your friend. On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 3:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > When my best friend was alive, he stored his camera stuff in airtight > > > cases in foam. > > > After his death, I went through what was left of his stuff. > > > One case had a Visoflex, bellows, and a Leitz Tele-Elmarit 180mm M > > > Visoflex mount lens. 250 of those were made. One in decent shape goes > > > for $2K. His was brand-new, quite possibly the last, and only one in > > > perfect shape. The foam ATE into the barrel of the lens, destroying > all > > > collector value. > > > > You really know how to hurt a person, don't you? I use both film and > digital Leica M's, including the Visoflex > > bellows and lenses, so this is a seriously painful story. That is one > of the rarest Leica lenses around. > > After Chris had a heart attack and died in my kitchen, the loss of his > camera gear was anti-climactic. > > In addition to the foam damage, the main body of his camera stuff was > missing! (stolen by the county agents who "secured" his house?) > A week before his death, we were taking some snapshots at Point Lobos, and > he promised to dig out and loan me [permanently!] a 35mm summicron, and my > choice of rigid or collapsible 50mm summicrons. > I was also listed for the cameras in his most recent will, although the > house is slated for somebody else. > But, when we got access to the house, there were some gaps on some of the > shelves. > > I would have kept one M body, and the summicrons, and sold off whatever > else duplicated what I already have. How many bellows and how many 90mm > Elmars can one want? > > On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, tony duell wrote: > > Ouch indeed. I have a small amount of Leica M stuff (M2 and M4 bodies, > > visoflex, 4 lenses, nothing rare). It's beautiful, although I must say > > that I prefer a Nikon F to the Leica M+visoflex. > > So do I. I would have kept my old visoflex and bellows, and sold off the > Tele-elmarit and some of the rest. > I sold the 180 Viso-M Tele-Elmarit to KEH. They've [probably PAINTED it > and] listed it for $1272 in "bargain (damaged) condition". > > > Fred, was this lens still usable after that. The barrel was pitted, I > > guess, but did the focussing mount still work and was the optics OK. I > > use my cameras, I don't collect them, so cosmetic damage is not so > > significant (I picked up a Nikkor 180mm for a very good price because > > somebody had scratched an inventory number on the barrel. Optically > > perfect, so still an excellent lens) > > The glass came through OK! There might be some very minor damage to the > front coating. The focusing still works, but not as smoothly, and has > one rough spot. The lens barrel was a lot worse than a simple asset > marking; it looks like a kid was playing with an engraver, and then > stored it in a puddle. > > Frankly, anybody needing something in the 180mm range has a lot of [in my > opinion] better options in newer gear. For example, my rangefinder > coupled 200mm Komura or ANY SLR with a 200mm lens is WAY more convenient > and easier to use than visoflex plus 180mm tele-elmarit - THAT is an > extraordinary amount of weight and bulk. Therefore, the primary value of > that lens would have been to a collector who wants the RARE aspect, and > they want it to look good. Cosmetic damage is significant in THAT market. > > One of Chris' other friends really wanted the 2-1/4 x 3-1/4 Graflex with > lenses, so I let him have it, but I kept the 47mm Super-Angulon which > might even cover 4x5! I am now making adapters to put it on a tilt/swivel > bellows for playing with movements on medium format, 35mm, and digital. > Not very difficult - it's on a Compur 00?, which seems to be the same > threads as what Schneider used for some enlarging lenses. > > When I first opened the case, everything felt WET. I thought that I was > dealing with water damage. But, a few hours later, the foam had further > metamorphed into a dry crumbly powder. > > > Chris was doing his laundry at my house (last load was in my dryer). > Does anybody here want a whole bunch of size XXL/2XL Cabela's shirts? > How many BIG guys are there here? > > > I've mentioned, on this list his PBM1000 computers (made by Wordstar > corp, while it was still Micropro). But those, his books from the 1980s > and 1990s, and his Sperry PCs got dumpstered before I got a chance to > rescue them. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > > From radioengr at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 17:53:48 2014 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 16:53:48 -0700 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> References: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <547BAE0C.4080000@gmail.com> On 11/28/2014 8:44 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 04:26:09PM +0100, Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: >> >> >> Unfortunately I do not have much details. I was at the Living >> Computer Museum and talked with RIch Alderson, who used to work at >> XKL. And he showed me a newer generation router from XKL, opened >> up, at LCM. And they use a PDP-10 on a chip, and it was actually >> running TOPS-20, and I could play around at the EXEC level in >> there. >> > > The system refered to above is visible next to the TOAD-1 in this video > clip, arround 30 seconds in. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We3BEaiz194 > > I've know for a while that it's been a 36 bit machine under the hood but > I was told that it is limited in some way, perhaps not a full pager. It > would be fun to get some details. (And if you can get one for yourself > of course). Given that a PDP-10 only supports a virtual address space of 256 KW, and that the XKL-2 reports 256MW of memory (another post), it's got to have some kind of a pager. The KS10 only supported 1 MW of memory, and the biggest KL-10 only supported 4 MW (I think) of memory. You can find the "TOAD-1 System Architecture Reference Manual" online. It describes the pager in detail. I doubt that the XKL-2 is much different. The pager is incompatible with any DEC hardware. It would have to be to support that much memory. I wouldn't call it 'limited'. Rob. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 30 17:29:05 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 15:29:05 -0800 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> On 11/30/2014 02:36 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > The 16032 was later renamed the 32016, 32-bit architecture, 16-bit external > bus. They also had the 32032, full 32-bit external bus, lots faster. The 16032 with graphics instructions addition (Bitblt) as the 32CG16 found some use in laser printers, also--Canon and Panasonic used it on some of their models. I called it the "whenever" chip. Sometime around the time that the 68K burst onto the scene, a couple of guys from NSC to give us a "preview" of the 16-bit version. Promising silicon the upcoming December (ISTR that this was about March) and pre-production samples "Real Soon Now", we had the next generation of systems designed and into production before that came about a couple of years later. Make no mistake, this was a remarkable design for the time, architecturally speaking. According to WikiP, the original intention was to clone the VAX, but the legal challenge to DEC was abandoned. I think that some avoided NSC when it came to MPUs--support wasn't what it should have been, nor the marketing attention span. NSC was fine as a second-source for many things, but there was a certain reluctance, I think, in the industry to use them as the prime source. I think I've still got an 32CG16 rattling around in my "MPU morgue"--PLCC package, if memory serves. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 18:54:18 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 18:54:18 -0600 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> Message-ID: <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> On 11/30/2014 05:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The 16032 with graphics instructions addition (Bitblt) as the 32CG16 found > some use in laser printers, also--Canon and Panasonic used it on some of > their models. One of these days, I think I'd quite like to find one of the FPUs; I've got a few Acorn boards which use the 32016, but I've only ever seen one out in the wild with the floating point unit fitted - and I happen to have a copy of Acorn's FP test code which came via an ex-employee. To my knowledge no commercial software (such as there even was any for the hardware) ever used it, but it seems a shame to have the code and nothing to run it against. There was also a rumored port of Xenix to the hardware, but while I can confirm that it certainly existed as a project, I've never seen anything to suggest that it got beyond proof of concept. > I think that some avoided NSC when it came to MPUs--support wasn't what it > should have been, nor the marketing attention span. NSC was fine as a > second-source for many things, but there was a certain reluctance, I think, > in the industry to use them as the prime source. How did they compare in price with the m68k? Because that chip (pretty much) "just worked", so if the price was comparable then I can certainly see why it gained such acceptance and the ns32k line fell by the wayside. cheers Jules From rickb at bensene.com Sun Nov 30 19:01:24 2014 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 17:01:24 -0800 Subject: Backplane Wiring - Was: Cyber ECL Wiring Message-ID: Brent H. wrote: > Would that be these?: > > http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/HP2116C/crimps.jpg > http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/HP2116C/backplane.jpg > An almost identical system was used for the backplane wiring on many Wang Laboratories electronic calculators, from the earliest machines (LOCI) through the last of the "large form factor" machines (Wang 500/600/700) calculators. Later machines (100, 400 and C-Series) had much higher levels of integration, which required a lot fewer backplane interconnects, and thus printed circuit backplanes could be used. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 30 19:21:59 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 17:21:59 -0800 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <547BC2B7.2090604@sydex.com> On 11/30/2014 04:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > How did they compare in price with the m68k? Because that chip (pretty > much) "just worked", so if the price was comparable then I can certainly > see why it gained such acceptance and the ns32k line fell by the wayside. I never got to that point--the NSC chip was so late that it wasn't even a candidate. I seem to recall some discussion that the early 16032 chips were a little on the flaky side, but that may have been rumor. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 30 19:46:24 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 17:46:24 -0800 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <547BC870.6030404@bitsavers.org> On 11/30/14 4:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 11/30/2014 05:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The 16032 with graphics instructions addition (Bitblt) as the 32CG16 found >> some use in laser printers, also--Canon and Panasonic used it on some of >> their models. > > One of these days, I think I'd quite like to find one of the FPUs; I've got a few Acorn boards which use the 32016, but I've only ever seen one out in the wild with the floating point unit fitted - > Probably the easiest ways to find one is find an old HP9000/200 floating point board. There is one on there or take your chances on a part from Hong Kong http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEC-NS32081D-10-DIP-Arithmetic-Processor-/271552360743 Note the pic is an 8MHz part, not 10. National released 4.1BSD for it. Opus Systems had it running on their PC coprocessor card. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 30 19:49:50 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 17:49:50 -0800 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547BC2B7.2090604@sydex.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> <547BC2B7.2090604@sydex.com> Message-ID: <547BC93E.3080302@bitsavers.org> On 11/30/14 5:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > early 16032 chips were a little on the flaky side, but that may have > been rumor. > no rumor. Syte Information Technology in San Diego built a graphics workstation with the parts and tanked because the NS silicon was late. There was a company in Palo Alto that built a NS32K Qbus board that ran as a Unix coprocessor under RSX, with RSX doing all the I/O. I have some of the software, but none of the boards. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 20:06:25 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 20:06:25 -0600 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <547B992D.7050502@pico-systems.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> <547B992D.7050502@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: No, this is actually a very good idea, as far as safety features go. And if I'd have only thought for a moment, it would have been obvious.. First issue, it's not always totally obvious when an induction hob is powered up - no visible flame, glowing coil, noise, heat, smell etc. If the hob were left powered with no load, it would be easy for a (cat, child, etc) to accidentally knock something onto the surface that could get very hot - or flame up, like a sheet of aluminum foil. Or one of those metallized paper fast-food wrappers.. that would make a nice little fire while the family's out of the house.. or sleeping upstairs. Then you have the issue that the "burner' sections of a complete cooktop aren't clearly and mechanically delineated from the "work" area.. oops, corner of the Macbook was WHERE? A powered but un-used hob is really just a trap waiting to be sprung. Automatic shutdown is a very wise measure. On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 4:24 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/30/2014 11:54 AM, Christian Kennedy wrote: > >> My suspicion is that this is actually in the same category as the control >> lock that?s supposed to deter children; being the US this smells like >> someone came up with a novel product liability theory and someone decide to >> drop a few extra lines of code in order to appease the corporate legal >> types. >> > Yes, and if left to reach completion, they will have you buying all your > pots > and pans with serial numbers that match the stove. All others will be > refused. Oh, maybe that is only for printer cartridges. > > Jon > From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Nov 30 22:44:31 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 22:44:31 -0600 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> Message-ID: <547BF22F.1090203@pico-systems.com> On 11/30/2014 05:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Make no mistake, this was a remarkable design for the > time, architecturally speaking. According to WikiP, the > original intention was to clone the VAX, but the legal > challenge to DEC was abandoned. > > I think that some avoided NSC when it came to > MPUs--support wasn't what it should have been, nor the > marketing attention span. NSC was fine as a second-source > for many things, but there was a certain reluctance, I > think, in the industry to use them as the prime source. > Absolutely! We got a complete package, with a bunch of Multibus boards, cross compilers that ran on the VAX, source of the debugger that was in ROMS on the boards, schematics, etc. All I needed to hack them into a multiprocessor system. This was all before the KA630 uVAX came out! Our benchmarks of the NS system running from RAM on the local board came out to be about 1/3 performance of the 780, which was quite phenomenal for a single-board processor at the time. This was with the MMU removed from the board. I cloned a 16032 system that ran Genix, and it was as slow as a dog! I don't know why. Partly, it had the MMU turned on, and was using Multibus memory that may have been pretty slow. Also, the compilers may have had much worse optimization than NS' own that did pretty well on our multiprocessor. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Nov 30 22:47:17 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 22:47:17 -0600 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <547BF2D5.6080506@pico-systems.com> On 11/30/2014 06:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > One of these days, I think I'd quite like to find one of > the FPUs; I've got a few Acorn boards which use the 32016, > but I've only ever seen one out in the wild with the > floating point unit fitted - and I happen to have a copy > of Acorn's FP test code which came via an ex-employee. To > my knowledge no commercial software (such as there even > was any for the hardware) ever used it, but it seems a > shame to have the code and nothing to run it against. > I have a few of them alone, as well as a bunch of 32016 Multibus boards that have the FPU installed. > There was also a rumored port of Xenix to the hardware, > but while I can confirm that it certainly existed as a > project, I've never seen anything to suggest that it got > beyond proof of concept. > Logical Micro of Chicago made a system using the 16032. At first they used Genix, then the sent out a newer OS, I now forget what it was. it didn't run any faster, which was my major concern. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Nov 30 22:50:32 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 22:50:32 -0600 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547BC2B7.2090604@sydex.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> <547BC2B7.2090604@sydex.com> Message-ID: <547BF398.1090400@pico-systems.com> On 11/30/2014 07:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/30/2014 04:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> How did they compare in price with the m68k? Because that >> chip (pretty >> much) "just worked", so if the price was comparable then >> I can certainly >> see why it gained such acceptance and the ns32k line fell >> by the wayside. > > I never got to that point--the NSC chip was so late that > it wasn't even a candidate. I seem to recall some > discussion that the early 16032 chips were a little on the > flaky side, but that may have been rumor. > I have no idea what the chip set cost new from NSC, but I don't think it was terribly expensive. Maybe a couple hundred $ for the complete set. I think the Logical Micro system was about $2500 for a complete system in a large IBM PC sized box, with hard drive, floppy, memory, Multibus backplane and power supply, dumb serial board and Genix OS. Jon From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 30 23:06:38 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 05:06:38 -0000 Subject: Random DEC Questions In-Reply-To: References: <034701d00ce8$54ec4260$fec4c720$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <035501d00d24$9672bcf0$c35836d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cory > Smelosky > Sent: 30 November 2014 22:01 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Random DEC Questions > > On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > > On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > >> > >> I also got a VT320, but it looks to be a 100-120V model. Is it > >> possible to convert these easily to 220-240V? > >> > > > > Do you have the version with permanently attached power cord? If > > so...I do not believe that one can be. I'm pretty sure the > > international model can be, though. > > > > I should say...cannot be converted with a simple moving of a jumper. > Not sure what makes it an international model, although it does say 50-60Hz, and it does not have a captive power cord, so presumably it is an international one. I will have to take a look inside, but I really don't have any idea what I would need to do to convert it. Regards Rob From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 23:12:39 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 21:12:39 -0800 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547BF398.1090400@pico-systems.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> <547BC2B7.2090604@sydex.com> <547BF398.1090400@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: One product that used the NS32016 was the Matrox QG-640 Color Display Processor Card for the Q-Bus. That NS32016 was used as the general purpose CPU in addition to the HD63484 Advanced CRT Controller (ACRTC). The NS32016 is the command processor and handles 3D to 2D transformations when a 3D coordinate space is used. The physical display resolution is 640x480. I have a couple of the Matrox QG-640 boards that I have never gotten around to trying out in a Q-Bus system yet. They look like they would be interesting if they work. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 23:20:06 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 21:20:06 -0800 Subject: Random DEC Questions In-Reply-To: <035501d00d24$9672bcf0$c35836d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <034701d00ce8$54ec4260$fec4c720$@ntlworld.com> <035501d00d24$9672bcf0$c35836d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 9:06 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Not sure what makes it an international model, although it does say 50-60Hz, > and it does not have a captive power cord, so presumably it is an > international one. I will have to take a look inside, but I really don't > have any idea what I would need to do to convert it. http://manx.classiccmp.org/mirror/vt100.net/dec/ek-vt320-ps-001.pdf Page 30 of the PDF / Page 24 of the manual. NOTE When you replace the power supply assembly in the international model, set the voltage jumper to the desired voltage. J2 120V J3 240V From scaron at umich.edu Sun Nov 30 23:36:25 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 00:36:25 -0500 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> <547BC2B7.2090604@sydex.com> <547BF398.1090400@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Matrox QG-640... a third party video card for the Q-bus?! Neat. Will it drive a VGA display? I looked at the PDF of the manual and the specs sound similar. What does the bulkhead look like? Did it use a standard DEC keyboard and puck mouse with breakout cable like the VCB02? Do you have a complete system? It would be cool to see a picture if you could get them to drive a common VGA display. Curious to know more. Were there other third party vendors in the Q-bus video market? Best, Sean On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 12:12 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > One product that used the NS32016 was the Matrox QG-640 Color Display > Processor Card for the Q-Bus. That NS32016 was used as the general > purpose CPU in addition to the HD63484 Advanced CRT Controller > (ACRTC). The NS32016 is the command processor and handles 3D to 2D > transformations when a 3D coordinate space is used. The physical > display resolution is 640x480. > > I have a couple of the Matrox QG-640 boards that I have never gotten > around to trying out in a Q-Bus system yet. They look like they would > be interesting if they work. > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 30 22:50:15 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 20:50:15 -0800 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> <547B992D.7050502@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <547BF387.9070400@sydex.com> On 11/30/2014 06:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > A powered but un-used hob is really just a trap waiting to be sprung. > Automatic shutdown is a very wise measure. The one I've got is really paranoid. The "unlock" button must be pressed before a "burner" is powered. It can also be used to lock the settings as well. If the burner gives up after about 30 seconds of a "no pan" situation, it powers off--and locks again. Oddly enough, I really appreciate that. More than once, I've left an electric "coil" type burner on at a low setting, completely forgetting about it... --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 30 23:53:41 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 05:53:41 +0000 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547B908D.3070400@gmail.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , <547B908D.3070400@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > On 11/30/2014 12:51 AM, tony duell wrote: > > It needs a good set of NiCd cells on the power control board to start it up. > > If not, you have to do a 'jumpstart' involving connecting a 9V battery to a connector > > on that board. Some owners added an external socket wired there to make it > > easier to so this. > > I think I've seen four of the machines in total; every single one of them > had suffered significant corrosion to the main PCB beneath because of the > batteries. The main problem in my experience is corrosion of the (tin plated) Molex KK connector between the power control/battery PCB and the motherboard This carries the system power (!) and corrosion leads to all sorts of problems due to the fact that the 5V line is anything but. > > There is a rare adapter which adds 3 ISA slots. 8 bit ones IIRC. > > I know the CG-200 at NMoC has such an adapter. I've actually got a photo of > it here - it has 3x 8-bit ISA slots toward the rear of the system, as you > say, but then there are PCB traces at the other end of the adapter board > for three 64-pin sockets, although only one is physically fitted on NMoC's > machine. Purpose unknown, and it'd be interesting to know if anything ever > made use of it. I seem to remember those connectors are essentially the 32016 bus. I've never seen them used for anything. Maybe in a few months time when I have unpacked all my books I can find the technical manual and see... > That particular system has an ISA serial board and some flavour of ISA > video board (whatever the latter is, it has 8x 41264 dual-port RAM chips, > and there's a 20-way ribbon cable attached which runs off somewhere beneath > the ISA adapter board). Unfortunately the machine - like the MG-1's - had > also suffered significant corrosion. I wonder if that's the colour video output card. Does this CG200 have the normal MG1 motherboard in it? I seem to remember a connector on the motherboard that carried at least the video timing signals. -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 23:56:15 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 21:56:15 -0800 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> <547BC2B7.2090604@sydex.com> <547BF398.1090400@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 9:36 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Matrox QG-640... a third party video card for the Q-bus?! Neat. Will it > drive a VGA display? I looked at the PDF of the manual and the specs sound > similar. What does the bulkhead look like? Did it use a standard DEC > keyboard and puck mouse with breakout cable like the VCB02? Do you have a > complete system? It would be cool to see a picture if you could get them to > drive a common VGA display. Curious to know more. Were there other third > party vendors in the Q-bus video market? > If Matrox provided any sort of bulkhead panel for the QG-640 I don't have one. The board only provides video out through 10-pin connectors (the typical 2 row by 5) with R, G, B, and composite sync. No input of any kind. There are actually two separate video outputs, each with their own INMOS IMSG170 RAMDAC fed from the common 8-bit display buffer. I suppose you could get separate displays with some limitations if you played interesting tricks with the color tables. I need to try soldering up some 10 pin header to HD15 VGA connectors and give the boards a try sometime. From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 19:13:56 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 20:13:56 -0500 Subject: is there any work processing software for the pdp11? Message-ID: or, if not, anyone feel like helping me port a contemporary line printer daemon to 2.11bsd? --jake From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 19:16:06 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 20:16:06 -0500 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? Message-ID: or, if not, anyone feel like helping me port a contemporary line printer daemon to 2.11bsd? --jake p.s. sorry for the previous subject misfire. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Nov 30 19:43:12 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 20:43:12 -0500 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/11/14 8:16 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > or, if not, anyone feel like helping me port a contemporary line printer > daemon to 2.11bsd? Best I can find is LEX-11, on TSX-Plus. Surprised Wordstar wasn't ported. :) --Toby > > --jake > > p.s. sorry for the previous subject misfire. > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Nov 30 19:45:26 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 20:45:26 -0500 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/11/14 8:43 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 30/11/14 8:16 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: >> or, if not, anyone feel like helping me port a contemporary line printer >> daemon to 2.11bsd? > > Best I can find is LEX-11, on TSX-Plus. > Although, of course, the notional mission of the Unix guys - when pressed for a business reason to justify their existence and hardware needs - was to develop a documentation workbench (troff, etc). --Toby > Surprised Wordstar wasn't ported. :) > > --Toby > >> >> --jake >> >> p.s. sorry for the previous subject misfire. >> > > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 20:09:29 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 21:09:29 -0500 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Yeah, but troff is too hard. I need something at least like emacs. Or preferably like wordstar. Guess I need to check out this LEX-11. On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 8:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 30/11/14 8:43 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 30/11/14 8:16 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: >> >>> or, if not, anyone feel like helping me port a contemporary line printer >>> daemon to 2.11bsd? >>> >> >> Best I can find is LEX-11, on TSX-Plus. >> >> > Although, of course, the notional mission of the Unix guys - when pressed > for a business reason to justify their existence and hardware needs - was > to develop a documentation workbench (troff, etc). > > --Toby > > > > Surprised Wordstar wasn't ported. :) >> >> --Toby >> >> >>> --jake >>> >>> p.s. sorry for the previous subject misfire. >>> >>> >> >> > From b4 at gewt.net Sun Nov 30 21:33:51 2014 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 22:33:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Dataproducts B600 help needed Message-ID: Hey, Does anyone have an operator's guide? I found this as a manual http://www.wang2200.org/docs/fiche/742-0432.MNL.2273LinePrinterMaintenance.85-07-19.pdf which will likely help me fix the board that has the "Bad timing clock" note (covering ICs, not an xtal). It does not however at a quick glance explain what it means that mine just displays "22" as the status. Any ideas? -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From isking at uw.edu Sun Nov 30 22:53:40 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 20:53:40 -0800 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Nov 30, 2014 6:10 PM, "Jacob Ritorto" wrote: > > Yeah, but troff is too hard. I need something at least like emacs. Or > preferably like wordstar. Guess I need to check out this LEX-11. > Hm, that's an interesting statement. Troff is much like LaTeX: a markup language for formatting. Emacs is an editor that doesn't give a wet slap about formatting beyond basic line structure. I use Emacs to write and LaTeX to produce layout. But neither Emacs (originally EMACS, "eight megabytes and continuously swapping") nor LaTeX is ever going to run on a PDP-11. I'm not familiar with LEX-11, but why not get a PDP-8 and run WPS-8? :-) Just what is it you're trying to accomplish? The phrase "I need something like..." leads me to think you have a particular goal in mind, and if we knew what that was it might help us offer suggestions. Cheers -- Ian From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Nov 30 23:30:47 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 00:30:47 -0500 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547BFD07.7020708@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/11/14 9:09 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Yeah, but troff is too hard. I need something at least like emacs. Or > preferably like wordstar. Guess I need to check out this LEX-11. > WordStar relative WordMaster was thought of as a "visual" programmer's editor. Not so different from vi, which might be an option if you're running unix. --Toby